# The Pink Bat Rip-off



## Calliope (3 August 2009)

I live in an over 50s village consisting of around 250 owner occupied homes. Each of these houses had good quality roof insulation installed during construction. That hasn't stopped unscrupulous house insulators flogging ceiling insulation to approx 200 homes in the village.  

The way they operate is to convince the home owner that they need additional insulation and that it is free. They come around with vans and pump the insulation through an opening in the roof. The operation takes about an hour. They then get the owner to sign a document to say the work was done, and they claim $1600 from the government.

These houses are all small two bedroomed with a carport which does not have a ceiling. I estimate they could do the job for $400, which means in this place alone they are ripping off $1200 on each house.

The whole stimulus package has been a godsend to dodgy tradesmen, rip-off merchants and bottom feeders.

Still it is achieving what krudd wanted. The money is being spent quickly, even if most of it is being wasted.


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## Timmy (3 August 2009)

Are they from Goldman Sachs?


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## Julia (3 August 2009)

Calliope, that's disgusting.   Have you considered reporting this to Fair Trading?

Why are the owners falling for it anyway?


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## Buckeroo (3 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Still it is achieving what krudd wanted. The money is being spent quickly, even if most of it is being wasted.




Not surprised, I think once everything comes out in the wash, this will be chicken feed compared to the corruption of the school building & broadband programs.

Whenever there's big money being splashed around, corruption is always close by and you can bet, there will be quite a number of Government Ministers with their hands in the till as well.

Cheers


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## moXJO (3 August 2009)

There is a lot of employment in it atm. I know a lot of quiet tradies being employed to blow this crap in.

I will look into it to get a better idea of whats going on.


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## Calliope (4 August 2009)

Timmy said:


> Are they from Goldman Sachs?




I'm afraid you've lost me:dunno:


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## moXJO (4 August 2009)

From 1 July 2009 the process will involve the following:

1.Eligible householders will visit this website or call the Energy Efficient Homes call centre on 1800 808 571 to select an installer/s to provide written quotes.

2.The householder will choose the installer and arrange for the installation. Installers should satisfy themselves that the customer is eligible for assistance under the Homeowner Insulation Program or the Low Emission Assistance Plan for Renters. Although the customer is responsible for assessing their own eligibility, if a customer is not eligible installers will not receive payment from the Australian Government on the customer’s behalf.

3.When the work is completed, the installer will fill out a work order form. A book of these forms will be sent to installers who successfully register.

4.The householder and installer need to sign the work order form when the work is completed and each of them will keep a copy.

5.The installer will lodge a claim online with the Australian Government for payment, which will be made promptly. The householder will need to pay the installer any amount in excess of the assistance of up to $1,600 (including GST) for owner-occupiers or $1,000 (including GST) for renters and landlords.


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## Agentm (4 August 2009)

i saw the title and thought it was about pink and her concert tickets being too expensive..

hell, free insulation  bring it on and keep it going..  gotta stop those black ballons


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## moXJO (4 August 2009)

About $20.50 for the blow in stuff that will cover 7 m2. So for a 150 m2 that’s about $440ish to cover material. 
Cost of the blow in machine from $6500 for a cheapie (not sure about quality) to $25k (not sure about quality).
+ Usual insurances (pub liab, workers comp)

So I'm off to buy an insulation blow in machine


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## cuttlefish (4 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> I live in an over 50s village consisting of around 250 owner occupied homes. Each of these houses had good quality roof insulation installed during construction. That hasn't stopped unscrupulous house insulators flogging ceiling insulation to approx 200 homes in the village.
> 
> The way they operate is to convince the home owner that they need additional insulation and that it is free. They come around with vans and pump the insulation through an opening in the roof. The operation takes about an hour. They then get the owner to sign a document to say the work was done, and they claim $1600 from the government.
> 
> ...




It makes me feel ill seeing our national wealth being thrown away in this fashion.  Its just insane.   I just paid my (not insignificant) tax bill about a month ago and to think its funding this and the $900 flat-screen-tv handouts is depressing.


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## moXJO (4 August 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> It makes me feel ill seeing our national wealth being thrown away in this fashion.  Its just insane.   I just paid my (not insignificant) tax bill about a month ago and to think its funding this and the $900 flat-screen-tv handouts is depressing.




Don't forget chemically treated shredded newspaper being blown into roofs


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## Calliope (4 August 2009)

moXJO said:


> About $20.50 for the blow in stuff that will cover 7 m2. So for a 150 m2 that’s about $440ish to cover material.
> Cost of the blow in machine from $6500 for a cheapie (not sure about quality) to $25k (not sure about quality).
> + Usual insurances (pub liab, workers comp)
> 
> So I'm off to buy an insulation blow in machine




The average ceiling size area in this village would be about 100 M2. As I write there are two of these blowers operating down the street with plenty of dust blowing around. I have been approached by three operators, and their excuse for insulating houses that are already insulated was "everybody's doing it."

Unlike most of the home owners here I am a taxpayer. Taxpayers have no reason to love Rudd.

They have descended on places like this like vultures around a carcase.


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## Agentm (4 August 2009)

free insulation is free..  doubling it up is brilliant, you will get less noise from the possums and rats in your roof also..

i think you missing an opportunity,, tell the clowns if they pay you $300 they can spray all they like and fill the cavity to the peak!!

spread the rudd love and get with it man... peace out....


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## Timmy (4 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> I'm afraid you've lost me:dunno:




Just a joke re all the vitriol pouring out onto GS.


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## moXJO (4 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> The average ceiling size area in this village would be about 100 M2. As I write there are two of these blowers operating down the street with plenty of dust blowing around. I have been approached by three operators, and their excuse for insulating houses that are already insulated was "everybody's doing it."
> 
> .




They should not get paid, just read the doc and that’s a no no. Unless it’s under the roof sheets and not on the ceiling possibly.
Heres the doc here:
http://www.environment.gov.au/energyefficiency/insulation/homeowners/pubs/hip-guidelines.pdf

Further info can be obtained from 
Phone 1800 808 571


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## moXJO (4 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> i think you missing an opportunity,, tell the clowns if they pay you $300 they can spray all they like and fill the cavity to the peak!!
> 
> spread the rudd love and get with it man... peace out....




Thats a good idea lol


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## Julia (4 August 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> It makes me feel ill seeing our national wealth being thrown away in this fashion.  Its just insane.   I just paid my (not insignificant) tax bill about a month ago and to think its funding this and the $900 flat-screen-tv handouts is depressing.



Exactly my feelings, cuttlefish.  Plus all the 'stimulus' that went into pokies.
I facilitate a gambling addiction group.   All the participants are on welfare.
They all gambled away their stimulus payments.  For those who have a mortgage, they are behind on the payments and don't have the money for the council rates which come due next month.  For those who are renting, they don't have the money for e.g. electricity/car repairs/any other basic necessity.

I'm more than happy for my tax dollars to support people who genuinely need help but it mightily irritates me to be funding complete irresponsibility.


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## Prospector (4 August 2009)

I didnt think that people who already had insulation were eligible.  Installers cant even remove old insulation and install new batts.  I would be dobbing them in - sorry, but I and my kids are going to be landed with the debt.


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## Happy (4 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> free insulation is free..  doubling it up is brilliant, you will get less noise from the possums and rats in your roof also..
> 
> i think you missing an opportunity,, tell the clowns if they pay you $300 they can spray all they like and fill the cavity to the peak!!
> 
> spread the rudd love and get with it man... peace out....





This all extra weight now plus some moistrue later might come crushing down one day with the plaster ceiling.

But don't worry insurance will cover that, unless they find out there was too much weight.


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## moXJO (4 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> I didnt think that people who already had insulation were eligible.  Installers cant even remove old insulation and install new batts.  I would be dobbing them in - sorry, but I and my kids are going to be landed with the debt.




Yes agree 

After the hail storms in Sydney every shonky wanna be roofer was out in force. A lot of the roofs were done so badly the had to be torn off and redone. While the insurance companies had to pay, it was the customers that wore the worry. Nothing like greed to bring out the worst in society

As for existing insulation in ceilings, I wonder how on earth the govt would check? Seems a bit open to abuse. I also wonder if these guys are putting barriers the required distance from the down lights and exhaust fans etc? Standards have to be met.  But I would think that who ever gets caught will be made an example of. I wouldn’t risk reputation and livelihood, over short term greed. But I'm guessing a few shonks are setting up shop atm, which will turn it into a greater farce.

But if your an out of work tradie it would be a God send. In the construction industry you often have to chase the money or you end up broke.


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## trainspotter (4 August 2009)

3.8 Billion for insulation? What will they think of next? 

About 2.2million homes will get free ceiling insulation, saving families $200 a year on energy bills, as part of the Government's new economic stimulus package. The Government will also double the $500 ceiling insulation rebate for 500,000 rental properties.

*The scheme is designed to give the economy a quick shot in the arm, putting people to work installing the insulation*, while also providing a lasting environmental benefit. It is expected to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 49.4 million tonnes by 2020, the equivalent of taking more than one million cars off the road each year.

Seems like it is working a little bit too well.


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## Calliope (4 August 2009)

Part of Krudd's 50,000 new jobs announced at the conference was to train 4,000   house insulators. You could train a monkey in five minutes to do what these guys do.


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## Happy (4 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Part of Krudd's 50,000 new jobs announced at the conference was to train 4,000   house insulators. You could train a monkey in *five minutes *to do what these guys do.





If you did that training industry would not get their chop.


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## brianwh (4 August 2009)

Why all the vitriol directed towards the Government? I have reservations about many aspects of the recent stimuli to the economy too but surley the issue here is the theft from the public purse by unscrupulous tradesmen. No doubt the same tradesmen who rort the GST. Did the same people now attacking Rudd attack Howard and Costello over this?

I have had pink bats installed under the scheme and while I believed that the tradesman was overcharging - but the second quote I got was even dearer! Perhaps there should be some sort of random auditing and prosecution of those who have been dishonest.


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## Calliope (4 August 2009)

brianwh said:


> Why all the vitriol directed towards the Government? I




Because it is "the Government" that is so free and loose with the taxpayers' money and with so few safeguards, that is encouraging corruption. The rorters and bottom feeders are now in a feeding frenzy. The sad thing is that the majority don't see a problem.


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## Prospector (4 August 2009)

brianwh said:


> Why all the vitriol directed towards the Government?  .




Because they didnt really THINK about the implications of both the handouts and the infrastructure spending.  A school here in SA has been awarded over $100,000 for improvements.  Guess what, the school is closing down at the end of the year.  Many are desperate for airconditioning so they dont have to send kids home when it gets over 37 degrees!  They aren't allowed to spend this money on airconditioning so they applied for funding for a school hall - they dont need school halls coz they already have them.  How many dead people received the $900?  And how many people living overseas received it?


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## brianwh (4 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Because they didnt really THINK about the implications of both the handouts and the infrastructure spending.




I am sure there are plenty of good arguments that can be mounted (especially in hindsight) that the stimulus could have been handled better. But my point was that the focus of our animosity should be towards the people ripping us off. If governments only did things that couldn't be abused, then not much would be done. I suggest that we are too willing to tolerate various forms of theft from the public purse. For example how many of you have known of someone evading tax, even boasting about it or how many of you have had a tradesman do a job for you and quote 2 prices, one with GST and one without?


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## Calliope (4 August 2009)

brianwh said:


> But my point was that the focus of our animosity should be towards the people ripping us off.




Yes, and in this case it's the Rudd government.


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## Smurf1976 (4 August 2009)

At least insulation does have a long term value which is more than can be said for spending $900 on the pokies or a plasma TV that will be at the tip 10 years from now. Insulation should last the life of the house and provides an economic return via ongoing energy savings.


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## cuttlefish (4 August 2009)

brianwh said:


> But my point was that the focus of our animosity should be towards the people ripping us off. If governments only did things that couldn't be abused, then not much would be done.




You make a valid point brian.  I guess the criticism of the government comes from the fact that the scheme has been slapped together and implemented hastily as a knee jerk reaction to try to stimulate the economy and the wastage levels are thus likely to be high.   But as you point out, wastage and rorting are a fact of life.   I'd question whether the government is going to get a real return on this investment, and if they aren't then its a hasty deployment of capital that could have been better deployed elsewhere.


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## Julia (4 August 2009)

Just repeating my hope that you will dob these rats in to Fair Trading, Calliope.


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## moXJO (4 August 2009)

Julia said:


> Just repeating my hope that you will dob these rats in to Fair Trading, Calliope.




Maybe that number I posted before.


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## So_Cynical (5 August 2009)

Yet another thread dominated by the labor/Rudd bashers...why are u guys so bitter? u lost...get over it already, and to think u people have at least 6 years of whining to go. 

Maybe the mods could just merge all the Rudd bashing/whining Liberal threads into 1


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## seasprite (5 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Because it is "the Government" that is so free and loose with the taxpayers' money and with so few safeguards, that is encouraging corruption. The rorters and bottom feeders are now in a feeding frenzy. The sad thing is that the majority don't see a problem.




I am failing to see your logic.

would you prefer that these people(insulators) were unemployed and the government paid them a benefit instead?

would you prefer that the government spent it on the likes of upgrading their computers and renovating their offices or other various numb nut ideas etc?

If a job is created , that money will eventually return the full circle through spending and taxing ,so what's your problem?


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## Calliope (5 August 2009)

seasprite said:


> I am failing to see your logic.
> 
> would you prefer that these people(insulators) were unemployed and the government paid them a benefit instead?
> 
> ...




It all depends on whether you are a taxpayer footing the bill for the billions being recklessly thrown around, or you are one of the recipients of this largesse. I guess I am biased because I am paying for the rip-offs.


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## Rhynoceros (5 August 2009)

An installer I was speaking to said that to be eligible to become an approved installer you have to have already been in the business and be qualified (what ever that takes) prior to the grant coming in as to keep out the unscrupulous persons who try to take advantage.

Another point he stipulated is that there will be and has been numerous random checks on the installers jobs which include cost charged compared to square meters of the house from details provided by the council.


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## Trembling Hand (5 August 2009)

seasprite said:


> I am failing to see your logic.
> 
> If a job is created , that money will eventually return the full circle through spending and taxing ,so what's your problem?




Yes very true. I believe the stimulus package # 3 in K.rudds bottom draw will involve taking money off productive tax payers and distributing it to two groups of unemployed real estate agents. first will plant trees in drought prone areas, second group will come along 6 months later and remove the dead treas so as to wipe any evidence of such an ineffective waste of tax dollars.


But hey nice little circle and lots of "jobs" in it


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## Timmy (5 August 2009)

Rhynoceros said:


> An installer I was speaking to said that to be eligible to become an approved installer you have to have already been in the business and be qualified (what ever that takes) prior to the grant coming in as to keep out the unscrupulous persons who try to take advantage.




You are right.  An installer seeking to do work for this rebate program must be on the Australian Government's Installer Provider Register.  The requirements and process for getting onto the register are here: Information for Insulation Installers.

In brief, the requirements are:
1. OH & S requirements;
2. Licenced builder, electrician, carpenter... etc.;
3. Insulation specific training and experience (certificate from RTO etc. ;
4. Industry experience.

Full details can be accessed on the link (above).

There are evidentiary requirements for showing compliance with the above 4 points.

There are also Terms and Conditions of Registration, available on the link (above).


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## Timmy (5 August 2009)

brianwh said:


> the issue here is the theft from the public purse by unscrupulous tradesmen.




_The only thing necessary for unscrupulous insulation installers to triumph is for good men to do nothing._  (With apologies to Edmund Burke.)

Calliope, why don't you pick up a phone and let someone know what is happening in your part of the world there?

Contact details are found here: Energy Efficient Homes Package

HOTLINE
1800 808 571

or email: http://www.environment.gov.au/energyefficiency/contacts/index.html


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## cuttlefish (5 August 2009)

seasprite said:


> I am failing to see your logic.
> 
> would you prefer that these people(insulators) were unemployed and the government paid them a benefit instead?
> 
> ...




I'd prefer to pay less tax and use the money in productive ("job generating") investment that will demonstrate superior ROI to sticking roof bats in my neighbours house.


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## Calliope (5 August 2009)

Timmy,

I understand what you are saying. My problem is that the people accepting the   spiel of these scammers are my friends and neighbours. I have already made my views known to many of them. 

You probably think I should put my money where my mouth is. However our society doesn't treat whistleblowers kindly.


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## Timmy (5 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> You probably think I should put my money where my mouth is.




Yes, I do, but I can understand your concern with your friends and neighbours - fair enough.  I don't know what the repercussions for them would be?  Probably not good if they already have insulation like you have said.  Maybe the government has dropped to number 3 in the priority list of villains here LOL.


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## Rhynoceros (5 August 2009)

If they are approved installers and are acting unscrupulously they will be caught through the government checks.



Else if they are scammers asking for cash upfront ?





"The Honourable Peter Lawlor

Wednesday, July 01, 2009

Residents warned to be on the look out for dodgy insulation installers

Queensland residents are once again being warned to be on the lookout for rogue insulation installers trying to swindle the new government rebate out of unsuspecting consumers.

Minister for Fair Trading Peter Lawlor said the Office of Fair Trading had already received reports from Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast of rogue traders approaching consumers offering to install cheap insulation under the Federal Government's rebate scheme which came into full affect today.

"While it is reasonable to expect an increase in legitimate marketing activity in this industry as a result of the rebate, I am concerned about reports of dodgy operators trying to scam unsuspecting consumers," Mr Lawlor said.

"We have had reports of itinerant traders approaching consumers offering on-the-spot insulation and assuring them they can claim the money back under the rebate scheme.

"To be eligible for the rebate, insulation must be installed by a registered business with an Australian Business Number operating in the insulation installation industry."

Mr Lawlor said information received by the Office of Fair Trading indicated the scam was similar to recent roof painting and bitumen laying scams.

"These fly-by-night operators turn up unannounced and offer to do the work for a song, then once they complete the job demand more money to cover 'unforseen' expenses.

"This is typical behaviour from rogue traders, cruising from town to town claiming to be qualified tradesman and charging exorbitant rates for shoddy work.

"Not only could you find yourself out of pocket, but when insulation is installed incorrectly it can be a major fire hazard."

Mr Lawlor said there had been incidents where cellulose fibre insulation placed too close to ceiling down lights had caught fire.

"Make sure your installer adheres to the voluntary Australian standards for the manufacture and installation of insulation - seek this confirmation in writing as a verbal guarantee is worthless," he said.

"The Federal Government's economic package is designed to stimulate the economy, not go into the pockets of scammers.

"You should check your eligibility for the rebate before you agree to insulation being installed - don’t just take the trader's word for it."

Mr Lawlor urged all Queenslanders to be cautious of anyone selling insulation door-to-door and to be wary of offers which appeared too good to be true.

If approached by traders at home:
o don't pay cash,
o don't let the tradesperson take you to the bank,
o don't pay for anything upfront, not even for materials,
o demand a receipt with a name and address on it, and
o ask for a written warranty.

Mr Lawlor said there were laws to protect people against intimidating tactics and unsolicited approaches employed by some roving door-to-door tradespeople.

Under the Fair Trading Act 1989, door-to-door salespeople must:
o only call on customers between 9 am and 6 pm from Monday to Friday, and 9 am and 5 pm on Saturdays. Calls on Sundays or public holidays are prohibited,
o wear clear identification,
o provide a written contract clearly stating the breakdown of costs, including GST and the total price with the sale of goods or services valued at more than $75, and
o offer a 10-day cooling-off period in the sale of goods and services valued at more than $75. During this time no payment, including deposits, can be accepted or work commenced.

"Traders caught breaching the Act face fines of up to $54,000 for individuals and $270,000 for companies" Mr Lawlor said.

If you have any information about these types of scams please contact the Office of Fair Trading on 13 13 04.

For more information about your rights as a consumer and protecting yourself from scams visit www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au.

For more information about the federal governments insulation rebate scheme visit http://www.environment.gov.au/rebates/index.html.


Ends

1 July 2009

Media contact: Marcus Taylor 3225 1005/0419 025 326 or Zoe Russell 3224 2002/0437 436 914
2009 "


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## Julia (5 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Timmy,
> 
> I understand what you are saying. My problem is that the people accepting the   spiel of these scammers are my friends and neighbours. I have already made my views known to many of them.
> 
> You probably think I should put my money where my mouth is. However our society doesn't treat whistleblowers kindly.



Calliope, you don't need to tell your friends and neighbours that you are making any comment to Fair Trading.  The report could have come from anyone who has just been approached by these scammers.


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## queenslander55 (5 August 2009)

Calliope said:


> Because it is "the Government" that is so free and loose with the taxpayers' money and with so few safeguards, that is encouraging corruption. The rorters and bottom feeders are now in a feeding frenzy. The sad thing is that the majority don't see a problem.




I would love to know how many of JWH's more outlandish knee jerk reactions/decisions like sending the Army to the Northern Territory at enormous expense to combat domestic violence in the Aboriginal Community for instance, that you have applauded. A decision by the way that has been lambasted by:

1. The Aboriginal Community
2. Both sides of government
3. The Scientific Community
4. The Social Justice Community, and
5. The International Community.

Just to name a few.

Why not stop your continual carping about every single decision/implementation made by this government and finally realise as I have been trying to say all along, that BOTH flavours of government in this country stink at one time or another and if you've got a genuine bitch about something, supply an alternative strategy not continual skirt talk!


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## Julia (5 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> I would love to know how many of JWH's more outlandish knee jerk reactions/decisions like sending the Army to the Northern Territory at enormous expense to combat domestic violence in the Aboriginal Community for instance, that you have applauded. A decision by the way that has been lambasted by:
> 
> 1. The Aboriginal Community
> 2. Both sides of government
> ...



Really?   Both sides of government have lambasted this decision?
Could you provide some evidence of that?   It's contrary to everything I have heard with the exception of a very few aboriginal communities where the desire for grog and violence is greater than their respect for the welfare of the community.

If the current government 'lambasted' this decision by the Howard government, why have they publicly endorsed it and continued to fund it?

What is 'the scientific community' in this context and what actually have they had to say about preventing violence in aboriginal communities?

Ditto the 'social justice' and 'international' communities.

Seems like some pretty broad assertions here, Queenslander.


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## stock nub (6 August 2009)

haha this is a complete waste of tax money

I know someone who started up an insulation company just to take advantage of the 1600 rebate for how ever long it will last for.

They only do insulation for friends houses, equipment cost #$# all, charges $1600, friends pay nothing govt coughs it all up and yes society is so much better off cough cough


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## queenslander55 (6 August 2009)

Julia said:


> Really? Both sides of government have lambasted this decision?
> Could you provide some evidence of that? It's contrary to everything I have heard with the exception of a very few aboriginal communities where the desire for grog and violence is greater than their respect for the welfare of the community.
> 
> If the current government 'lambasted' this decision by the Howard government, why have they publicly endorsed it and continued to fund it?
> ...




No one has said that the intervention was wrong...just the decision to mobilize the Army to carry out the job. That HAS been lambasted.

...and Julia, about the nexus of my post?  That poor decisions are not the domain of one side over the other....silence.


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## Julia (6 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> ...and Julia, about the nexus of my post?  That poor decisions are not the domain of one side over the other....silence.



It's not up to me to answer for Calliope.   FWIW I completely agree that both sides have at various times made poor decision making an art form.
(viz in particular Turnbull & Co over Utegate).


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## Prospector (6 August 2009)

queenslander55 said:


> ...and Julia, about the nexus of my post?  That poor decisions are not the domain of one side over the other....silence.




You are a newbie to this forum and maybe you havent had a chance to flick through the archives but why assume that we only criticise Rudd?  We have all (well, many of us, over the years) criticised the Liberal Government for things that we did not agree with - eg the Iraq invasion and its attitude to the Bush Presidency.  A quick search will see the criticism of the Liberal Government.  But it just so happens that it is *Rudd in the Prime seat now making these decisions and not the Liberals.* So what is the point in commenting on the Liberal opposition when they are not the power brokers anymore?

Ok, this utegate thing.  We had a similar email issue happen in SA this year, just before utegate.  It caused the Liberal Opposition leader to resign.  Within a couple of months, the Federal opposition has fallen to the same scam.  Plenty of rumours abound about the 'origins' of the email floating in SA, I just wont say them publically.  And it surely cannot be co-incidence that history has now repeated itself.

I fail to see though why either of them should be forced to resign.   Poor judgement yes, but as it can be proven that neither of them were the ones to forge the email, then why do they bear the guilt?

Calliope, at the very least I think you should send the name of the rip-off contractor into the address given earlier.  An anon letter.


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## Julia (11 January 2010)

I've today received paperwork from one of the insulation installers who provided a quote, declaring that the work was carried out on 3 September 2009.
Bill is $1239.00, the $39.00 payable by me, the rest kindly paid by the government (read taxpayer).

Only problem is I didn't have the insulation installed.  I did accept the quote, then changed my mind and advised them accordingly.

The paperwork clearly states that the work has been carried out and is signed and dated.

Phoned the government Hotline and spoke to someone with such heavily accented English I had difficulty understanding him, and he advised that it wasn't a problem that I'd been sent this because payment would only be made if I signed and returned it.

I guess that's fair enough, but wouldn't it be pretty easy to write my name in the signature panel if you're going to be declaring that you did work which you didn't do?

Am I being unreasonable in feeling annoyed that this has happened?


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## Happy (11 January 2010)

Julia said:


> ...
> Phoned the government Hotline and spoke to someone with such heavily accented English I had difficulty understanding him, and he advised that it wasn't a problem that I'd been sent this because payment would only be made if *I signed and returned it.*
> ...





And how hard would be for anybody to sign that paper with Julia Lovely Lady's signature and submit it for Government Assistance payment?

Honestly I would take it further, until I received confirmation from Government body, that such and such address was not reimbursed for alleged work carried out.

Probably good exercise for local Government Opposition representative or local Fraud Squad.


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## Julia (11 January 2010)

Agree, Happy, and on that basis I've sent a response on the "Complaints" form on the government website in which I've also expressed my surprise that their call centre operator considered it wasn't a problem.


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## Happy (11 January 2010)

Glad you could be bothered to look after our money.

Pink Bat Fraud is of some proportions.

Number of operators were unregistered because of  >irregularities<, 
Some of the smart bat moves include: vacant blocks to have pink bats installed even before building is built there, or houses that have had insulation installed already.

Not to mention appalling workmanship causing on average one house a week to burn down because of hot running halogen downlights covered with cellulose type insulation blown into roof cavity.


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## moXJO (11 January 2010)

Happy said:


> Glad you could be bothered to look after our money.
> 
> Pink Bat Fraud is of some proportions.
> 
> ...




I don't want to say too much... but the school building going on is probably ten times worse. Currently doing works on one, and am shocked at what is going on and the stories I am hearing from other trades


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## Happy (11 January 2010)

moXJO said:


> I don't want to say too much... but the school building going on is probably ten times worse. Currently doing works on one, and am shocked at what is going on and the stories I am hearing from other trades





Any chance to push some buttons to get somebody involved to stop it before it becomes a norm?

Suppose biggest problem is personal safety after rocking the boat.


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## moXJO (11 January 2010)

Happy said:


> Any chance to push some buttons to get somebody involved to stop it before it becomes a norm?
> 
> Suppose biggest problem is personal safety after rocking the boat.




NSW Construction suggested guidelines for any concerns regarding large scale problems on Government sites as follows:


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## Smurf1976 (11 January 2010)

Happy said:


> Not to mention appalling workmanship causing on average one house a week to burn down because of hot running halogen downlights covered with cellulose type insulation blown into roof cavity.



If you have these type of lights then I very strongly recommend checking in the roof space to ensure they are well clear of anything flammable. 

These lights run hot and are designed to pass radiant heat through their back and into the roof space. It's a disaster waiting to happen if there is wiring, insulation, timber framing or anything else in close proximity to the lights.

Ideally go into the roof to check but you can get a pretty good idea of what's up there by simply removing the lamp (bulb) in the normal manner and poking your fingers up there (I recommend switching power off at the switchboard before doing this, just in case).

If you decide to remove the entire fitting to check, then be aware that whilst they seem to pull out of the ceiling quite easily, they are held in by a spring and once you get it all the way out it snaps back like a rat trap and this is quite painful if your fingers are in the way. Be careful where you put your fingers...


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## Logique (11 January 2010)

Why on earth would you want loose cellulose in your roof cavity anyway? I've read the brochure. It didn't satisfy my concerns.

Rebate or not, I wouldn't want the stuff in my roof.


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## Julia (11 January 2010)

That's pretty much what I decided, logique.  Plus the fact that so many people said their houses retained the heat more on summer nights.

I don't know, but I'd guess that a lot of people had it installed simply because they didn't have to pay for it.


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## roland (11 January 2010)

The insulation that was installed in our place was only about 2cm thick and on a roll with Chinese writing all over it. When quizzed the guy said it meets the ASA Standard number something or other.

My mother did better, she unded up with brand name Pink Batts around 6 inches thick.

Not much I can do - just a rental, and hard enough to get anything installed


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2010)

Logique said:


> Why on earth would you want loose cellulose in your roof cavity anyway? I've read the brochure. It didn't satisfy my concerns.
> 
> Rebate or not, I wouldn't want the stuff in my roof.



Fibreglass batts (Pink Batts, Bradford or similar brands) are the way to go in my opinion unless there's a specific reason to use something else. It won't burn, won't rot, doesn't wear out and so on. The only downside is it's not pleasant stuff if you have to work in the roof after it's been installed - electricians in particular don't like it for that reason but apart from that it's a good product.

Foil has a worthwhile use in a hot climate for keeping the heat out during the day, but isn't a real alternative to bulk insulation (batts etc) in a cool climate. 

Polyester has advantages in any area that's likely to be regularly accessed since the batts are non-irritating to the skin and require no protective gear to install. You really could go to sleep on them if you wanted to. It's more expensive than fibreglass however and you do need to make sure it's a quality product and not something that will burn easily (there are quality products available, just make sure you get them).

Forget the rest unless there's a specific reason to use them in my opinion. Cellulose blows around, makes a nice rat / mouse nest and is flammable. Loose fill rockwool also has the blowing about problem although at least it can't burn and isn't overly attractive to rodents. Foam can work if done well but there's lots of horror stories of it going wrong. And don't even think about straw etc - way too flammable.

And don't forget the R rating of any type of insulation you install. Vic / Tas go for 3.5 or 4 (more if you've got $ to spend). In warmer climates a bit less should be OK. There's an official guide that lists each area somewhere and it's good advice. Don't have a link unfortunately.


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## Calliope (12 January 2010)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...to-stimulus-rort/story-e6frg6nf-1225817873922

*Dumped batts point to stimulus rort*



> THEY are a tell-tale sign that the Rudd government's great pink batt rollout is still being rorted by shonky installers -- bags and batts of perfectly good insulation ripped out of ceiling cavities and dumped in quiet corners of suburbia.
> 
> Steve Saikos, mayor of the Melbourne municipality of Kingston, says they started popping up like mushrooms after rain just before Christmas; 38 bags near a disused textile plant, 175 next to the entrance of a tip, 200 on the side of a road.
> 
> "Over the past month Kingston council workers have collected over 500 bags of old insulation . . . and council is becoming increasingly concerned that old insulation is being systematically removed from houses to accommodate the new, subsidised insulation.




*



			A spokesman for Environment Minister Peter Garrett said the government would take "an extremely dim view of anyone who tries to exploit the Home Insulation Program in any way".
		
Click to expand...


*
What this means is they will turn a blind eye. The government is not concerned with how the money is wasted as long as it is spent. The above article refers to "tell-tale" signs. In the area where I live, blind Freddy would know that it has been occurring on  a massive scale, and this is not unique to the Sunshine Coast. I reported the case where dozens of houses with existing roof insulation have had insulation pumped into the roof cavities.

 In fact, in my street on some days the air was thick with insulation dust, and I live in a village where every house was efficiently insulated during construction.

The Rudd government is not taking a "dim view" of this. The are taking a dim view of whistle blowers. I was advised that they had the matter in hand, and that "random checks" would uncover any rorts.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the money allocated under the stimulus package has stimulated corruption to historic proportions. This will always happen when the checks and balances are practically non-existent.

And it is certainly not in the Governments interests to uncover the massive waste and graft occurring in the bats or school building programs. They know about the millions that have disappeared in the aboriginal housing program. Another case of turning a blind eye.


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## gerkin02 (12 January 2010)

I know of people who will well and truly become millionaires out of this business.

They target large complexes of units where only about 3-$400 of material is used and pay about $150 per unit for the installers.

At $1200 there is plenty of profit left.Each team is doing about 5 jobs per day.With multiple teams equals lots of cash.

The installers  have no qualifications and often there is a co-ordinator who is collecting the $150 per unit x 5= $750 per day and paying 2 juniors $70 cash each per day,(who are possibly already collecting benefits from the government).This gives the co-ordinator over $600 per day for minimal organising.

Sometimes there is damage,but the co-ordinator sorts that as not to draw attention.

Substandard work and insulation  on previous insulation(esp blow in insulation) is performed.

Its all about volumes.The more houses that can be done in the shortest period of time is the name of the game before the final bell rings,thats all folks-the moneys all gone.

I am sure these government funded millionaires will be eternally grateful.

All the best.


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## Julia (12 January 2010)

Calliope said:


> The Rudd government is not taki...as above.
> Your tax dollars at work, folks.


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## Happy (12 January 2010)

Smurf1976 said:


> If you have these type of lights then I very strongly recommend checking in the roof space to ensure they are well clear of anything flammable.
> 
> These lights run hot and are designed to pass radiant heat through their back and into the roof space. It's a disaster waiting to happen if there is wiring, insulation, timber framing or anything else in close proximity to the lights.
> 
> ...





Place I live in now thank heavens doesn’t have one.

But your timely words of warning are for everybody who has them.

I also heard that there are some LED or energy efficient globes that fit directly into fittings to replace those > Oven Like < halogens.

Did I hear right?


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2010)

You can easily get LED and Fluoro replacements for some types of downlights.

For 240V halogens (NOT 12 Volt) you can easily get fluoros from hardware stores etc. They are not as bright as they claim, due to the small size blocking quite a bit of the light the tube produces (as in maybe half of it). But still useful in some applications.

There are also LED products available, generally for 12V use. Again they're not as bright but they run cool and do have a very long life. Useful under benches etc but not yet good enough to light an entire room with (well, unless you don't want it very bright or use a lot of them).

5 or 10 years time though I think all new lights will be LED's as that's certainly where the industry is headed. Incredibly long life and energy efficient but they're not quite there (yet) in terms of light output and quality. They're getting better all the time though.

As for all the government's throwing around of money, it seems like pure madness to me but I figured if I'm going to end up paying the bill via taxes then I might as well get something for it. I've claimed two separate grants worth a total of $9000 over the past few months. One for PV solar panels (which produce electricity, not hot water) on the roof and the other for a heat pump water heater. Add in the Renewable Energy Certificates, which are funded by consumers rather than government, and there's another $1733. I might as well get something for the taxes I'll be paying for the next few decades to pay for all this...

One thing I'm not happy about though is the creation of a boom and bust cycle. It's already been done a few times now in the solar industry and the same will happen with insulation. All that's happening is that instead of Australian companies (which used to dominate the insulation market) selling product for years to come, we now have demand rushed forward due to the government's grant and that is being filled largely with imported product.

Then when it's all over, the market that local companies would have had for the next decade or more has been destroyed, meanwhile foreign insulation suppliers have got their foot in the door. That could end up basically wrecking the local insulation manufacturing industry.


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## Happy (13 January 2010)

I've noticed too that LED's are OK for mood creation, but not quite there for general application.




Smurf1976 said:


> ...
> 
> when it's all over, the market that local companies would have had for the next decade or more has been destroyed, meanwhile foreign insulation suppliers have got their foot in the door. That could end up basically wrecking the local insulation manufacturing industry.





We will end up just selling some commodities and the rest will be imported.

Probably big holes we dig to get the stuff to send overseas, can be filled in with imported rubbish for which we can get some money too.

Quite bleak future with our Government run by cash splash masters.


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## gav (13 January 2010)

I just received a call from a local number, offering to put insulation in my roof for free.  She rattled off her little spiel all chirpy and flirty.  I told her my house already has good quality insulation.  But she kept persisting, saying I may as well replace mine with new insulation, seeing as it's free after all .  I told her I wasn't interested.  I then asked how she got my phone number (a private number) and *knew my name*.  Knowing I wasn't going to budge, she simply said "thank you" and hung up.

My local council have had problems lately with insulation being dumped throughout suburbia (see Calliope's post).  I'm not sure if the pushy person calling me (and probably calling many other property owners too) are contributing to the dumping, but I think I might pass on their phone number to the council anyway.


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## stockGURU (13 January 2010)

Julia said:


> Your tax dollars at work, folks.




Hi Julia,

This shameless squandering of taxpayer's money reminds me of a quote by Margaret Thatcher:

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."


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## Stan 101 (16 January 2010)

It seems in Cairns at least the system is working. Get the local MP on the case and take it from there.

http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2010/01/16/87745_local-news.html

Article is from Cairns Post so DYOR.

cheers,


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## Julia (16 January 2010)

Thanks, Stan.  I've yesterday had a response from the government, asking for my address etc so they can follow up.

I also sent the info to the Liberal Party.  Received a 'thank you very much, we will be taking it up with the Minister" reply, and a promise of a report on the outcome.

Meantime, I've heard from so many other people that the insulation has really made a great difference and they're very happy with it, that I'm considering having it done after all.


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Thanks, Stan.  I've yesterday had a response from the government, asking for my address etc so they can follow up.
> 
> I also sent the info to the Liberal Party.  Received a 'thank you very much, we will be taking it up with the Minister" reply, and a promise of a report on the outcome.
> 
> Meantime, I've heard from so many other people that the insulation has really made a great difference and they're very happy with it, that I'm considering having it done after all.




Did you ever get a follow up in this Pink Batt ripoff, Julia.

It seems to have been lost in the mists of time.

gg


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## Julia (13 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Did you ever get a follow up in this Pink Batt ripoff, Julia.
> 
> It seems to have been lost in the mists of time.
> 
> gg



I'm struggling to remember now, gg.  I'm pretty sure I received acknowledgement, thanks, and an assurance it would be pursued.

I succumbed to having the dreaded batts installed and have to say they have been most effective.  House is definitely warmer in winter and cooler in summer.


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## nulla nulla (14 January 2013)

Julia said:


> I'm struggling to remember now, gg.  I'm pretty sure I received acknowledgement, thanks, and an assurance it would be pursued.
> 
> I succumbed to having the dreaded batts installed and have to say they have been most effective.  House is definitely warmer in winter and cooler in summer.




No doubt your electricity consumption is down also. I make this observation not in the context of political point scoring but merely as being something we have noticed as well. 

Dismissed at the time as a waste of money, the objectives from memory were to stimulate the economy (?) and contribute to the reduction of Australia's carbon footprint. The stimulus to the economy was over-shadowed by tragic events related to abuses of the roll out and ripoffs. There is always an element of the community that will see an opportunity to make a quick and often unscrupulous profit. Additionaly, imo, it was to narrow an area of the economy to have a significant impact on the overall economy to provide any real stimulus.

But the reduction to the carbon footprint has worked (setting aside for now the carbon tax arguments). A further observation, which I suspect is related to the pink bat roll out, is that the sell-off of power plants by state governments has not been the income stream the infrastructure buyers had expected. The buyers of the infrastructure now want to increase electricity prices based on their claimed need to replace power poles, lines etc and crank up production of more electricity to deal with peak demands. Only problem is, peak demands have fallen and are continuing to fall. The basis for the power companies to increase prices is being challenged, much to their chagrin.


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## Julia (14 January 2013)

nulla nulla said:


> No doubt your electricity consumption is down also. I make this observation not in the context of political point scoring but merely as being something we have noticed as well.



No.  It's about the same.  I use very little electricity inside the house which is designed well for admitting sun in winter and shade in summer.  Most of it goes in running and heating the pool.


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## nulla nulla (14 January 2013)

Julia said:


> No.  It's about the same.  I use very little electricity inside the house which is designed well for admitting sun in winter and shade in summer.  Most of it goes in running and heating the pool.




Cheers  Pink bats won't work over the pool, they get too soggy.


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## Julia (14 January 2013)

nulla nulla said:


> Cheers  Pink bats won't work over the pool, they get too soggy.



Actually, that does raise the question of whether a substance like the batts could be placed inside the waterproof pool blanket?   Probably would be awkward to handle, but would almost certainly be more effective in trapping heat than the usual quite thin pool blanket.


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## nulla nulla (15 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Actually, that does raise the question of whether a substance like the batts could be placed inside the waterproof pool blanket?   Probably would be awkward to handle, but would almost certainly be more effective in trapping heat than the usual quite thin pool blanket.




Something in black would trap heat but wouldn't trapped heat generate algae?


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## sydboy007 (15 January 2013)

having helped my dad install roof insulation in 100+ houses in my early uni years I was happy that the insulation I received was a good 4 inches thick.  it was also not "dusty" like some of the product we had been forced to install.

The guy did a good job and I actually got him and his dad to do a few other jobs around the house as they were reasonably priced for quality work.

the insulation certainly stops the extremes of heat / cold, but does mean the upstairs rooms stay hotter in summer, and can take longer to warm up in winter.

Am thinking I need to get something to bring the air from outside into the rooms.  wouldn't take much to adjust the temperature if i could do that.

Probably hasn't reduced summer electricity consumption so much, but during winter I've seen a big drop - have two Thai guys renting rooms and I joke that they think winter is anything below 28 degrees


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## Julia (15 January 2013)

nulla nulla said:


> Something in black would trap heat but wouldn't trapped heat generate algae?



Do you mean algae in the water?  Not as long as there's sufficient chlorine in the water.
Remember you're talking about in winter only bringing the water up to what it would be without heating in summer.


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## DocK (15 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> having helped my dad install roof insulation in 100+ houses in my early uni years I was happy that the insulation I received was a good 4 inches thick.  it was also not "dusty" like some of the product we had been forced to install.
> 
> The guy did a good job and I actually got him and his dad to do a few other jobs around the house as they were reasonably priced for quality work.
> 
> ...




We had insulation put in the roof and west-facing wall of our home when it was built, 17 years ago.  A couple of years ago I was complaining to a taxi driver about how hot the kid's bedrooms got upstairs, and wondered if the insulation actually made matters better or worse.  As taxi drivers usually know everything , he was able to suggest a great solution -  whirly-gigs.  I did a bit of research (there are some good threads on the subject on Whirlpool forum) and we installed 3 on the roof when Bunnings next had them on sale.  I can't say the difference has been dramatic, but it is noticably at least a couple of degrees cooler at night upstairs than it used to be.   I still think a flip-top or wind-up-and-down roof to allow all the heat to escape is a fantastic idea (patent pending), but so far have been unable to make a fortune by designing one.......


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## Julia (15 January 2013)

I've always wondered re the whirly gigs whether - if they make it cooler in summer - they would also let heat out in winter.  What do you think?


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## DocK (15 January 2013)

Julia said:


> I've always wondered re the whirly gigs whether - if they make it cooler in summer - they would also let heat out in winter.  What do you think?




I feel the heat much more than the cold.  We tend to use the airconditioning during late afternoon/evening in summer, but very rarely need any heating during winter - especially on the second storey where the bedrooms are.
I believe the most effective way to use whirly gigs is to have vents in the ceilings of the upper rooms, which can be opened in summer and closed in winter according to need.  More effective yet are powered venting systems designed to evacuate the hot air from the roof cavity at night - I'd like to be in a home with one of these to experience the effect - it sounds logical in theory, but involves fans and motors etc, and we haven't bothered.  We've simply put the whirlygigs in and relied upon the gaps between roof tiles to provide the venting required to allow cooler air in to replace the hot air hopefully being vented out.   In summer all the windows on the ground floor are open and allow a flow of cooler air from outside to travel upwards through the house to replace the hot air expelled from the roof cavity. (We sometimes open the manhole on the upstairs ceiling to assist with this).  In winter, these windows are shut thus restricting the airflow through the house.   As I said, the results are not dramatic, but every little bit helps on those hot summer nights.  I've linked a couple of threads on the subject on other forums, if you are interested enough to want to read further:

http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/1592
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1588528

I'd welcome Smurf's comments on this subject - he's usually spot on with this sort of information.


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## sydboy007 (15 January 2013)

Julia said:


> I've always wondered re the whirly gigs whether - if they make it cooler in summer - they would also let heat out in winter.  What do you think?




I had a couple installed about 10 years ago.  It definitely made a big diff in summer, but also notcied the upstairs room were a bit colder in winter.

Still, with it being easier to warm up than cool down it was a compromise I was willing to make.

I just need some filtered fan system that would bring in the outside air when it's cooler / warmer outside than in the bedrooms.

Thinking I'l have to stop procrastinating and start googling.


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## GregoryLawrenc (6 July 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Fibreglass batts (Pink Batts, Bradford or similar brands) are the way to go in my opinion unless there's a specific reason to use something else. It won't burn, won't rot, doesn't wear out and so on. The only downside is it's not pleasant stuff if you have to work in the roof after it's been installed - electricians in particular don't like it for that reason but apart from that it's a good product.
> 
> Foil has a worthwhile use in a hot climate for keeping the heat out during the day, but isn't a real alternative to bulk insulation (batts etc) in a cool climate.
> 
> ...



it looks like worth old thread for me.. i am searching for some fibreglass bat information and there is plenty to gain here..I will try to get one now asap and share my own experience very soon


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## bellenuit (6 July 2013)

GregoryLawrenc said:


> it looks like worth old thread for me.. i am searching for some fibreglass bat information and there is plenty to gain here..I will try to get one now asap and share my own experience very soon




I used a product call Greenstuff batts a few years ago. It provides all the insulation properties of fibreglass batts, but without the environmental and skin irritation issues. I think they may have cost a few dollars more, but not a significant difference. Well worth not having the worry of needing protection to install or later when going into the attic to do other things. Bunnings used to sell them then. 

http://autex.com.au/products/Insulation/GreenStuf/Batts-for-Walls-and-Ceilings


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