# Commercial Securities?



## Another One1 (17 March 2010)

Has anyone heard of Commercial Securities? They are trying to sell me a program which they say profits 50k per year on betting on horses!!!


----------



## drsmith (17 March 2010)

*Re: Commercial Securties*

How many copies do they have to sell to make $50k ?

EDIT: This looks like it.

http://commercialsecurities.com.au/images/stories/Comm-Sec-Brochure-low.pdf

Dear oh dear!

No one could be foolish enough, surely.


----------



## newbie trader (17 March 2010)

*Re: Commercial Securties*



drsmith said:


> How many copies do they have to sell to make $50k ?
> 
> EDIT: This looks like it.
> 
> ...




What? I probably shouldn't have ordered 10 copies then


----------



## PlainBlue (18 March 2010)

Yes I also got the same spiel.
I was told that they do all the investing for Packer Industries and they have a 74% success rate.
They have 4 packages left to offer in Western Australia and I am one of the lucky few (where did they get my number)
They also sent me an email of a portfolio where they have made 58k betting on the horses over one year
In the last three business days I have had 14 missed calls from them chasing up if I would like to join this investment. Now thats determined! I am overwhelmed with their concern.
However I am concerned why their business address is based out of a web design office in Crows Nest NSW that is registered as (e strategy international) and their ABN listed addres is in Surfers Paradise QLD.
Also interesting how they offer to give you a tax free return. This company was registered on 22nd June 2009. I wonder if they will still be there at 22nd June 2010 to provide a financial statement come tax time, or if somehow they will be un-contactable.
If anyone has anything positive about this investment please let me know. Or if they have feed you the same information.
Otherwise too many RED FLAGS for me.


----------



## Julia (18 March 2010)

I don't suppose what they're doing is illegal, but maybe consider forwarding their kind offer to ASIC for their assessment?

There are plenty of innocents who would get sucked into this rubbish.


----------



## drsmith (19 March 2010)

PlainBlue said:


> I am overwhelmed with their concern.
> They have 4 packages left to offer in Western Australia and I am one of the lucky few (where did they get my number) They also sent me an email of a portfolio where they have made 58k betting on the horses over one year In the last three business days I have had 14 missed calls from them chasing up if I would like to join this investment. Now thats determined! I am overwhelmed with their concern.



Lucky few my foot. They will flog this to anyone foolish enough to part with their money in return for blind hope.

I can offer a better deal. Instead of buying the program just put the application money into my bank account. I can garantee you won't lose any more by offering nothing in return.



PlainBlue said:


> If anyone has anything positive about this investment please let me know. Or if they have feed you the same information.
> Otherwise too many RED FLAGS for me.



The only question that needs to be considered of this or it's share market equivelent is why the developers would rather sell it than use it.


----------



## skyQuake (19 March 2010)

They're very good at taking advantage of human psychology aren't they...

Plainblue, at least you're doing research instead of throwing money at them 
But do think about why they're willing to sell a system that MAKES money.


----------



## Colonel Flagg (6 April 2010)

I was cold called about a week ago and they sent out the glossy pamphlet.

I received a call today following up, but when I said I thought it looked like a scam, she got all defensive and threatened to sue me !!!

Only 400 packages in NSW blah blah blah. It can't be too exclusive if the cold called me (no idea where they got my mobile number from). I have not looked at horse racing stuff for a decade.


----------



## Wanting Info (8 April 2010)

PlainBlue said:


> Yes I also got the same spiel.
> I was told that they do all the investing for Packer Industries and they have a 74% success rate.
> They have 4 packages left to offer in Western Australia and I am one of the lucky few (where did they get my number)
> They also sent me an email of a portfolio where they have made 58k betting on the horses over one year
> ...



We have had similar issues with this company in the past week. Does anyone have any info or results from this company?


----------



## spanna (12 April 2010)

We were one of the foolish ones to purchase a licence from this group. We were told all about the profits and gains and "secure, consistent and stable financial freedom". Three months down the track we have lost more than 50% of the funds we invested (this is not including the $8000 licence fee we had to pay!). We cannot believe how gullible we were. I searched them on the Internet many times and it has not been until recently that I found posts such as this one. This makes me think they have only started up recently, not five years ago like they said. Yes we were stupid...


----------



## just looking (14 April 2010)

That’s really awful and unlucky Spanna, thanks for posting your experience. I can only hope things turn around for you.

Does Spanna’s experience mean that the ‘monthly results’ information on their page is misleading or an outright lie?
According to the page, the last few months have been a mixed bag with Dec 2009 and Jan 2010 having more than $6000 gain, feb 2010 more than $2000 loss and March more than $2000 gain.

I got called as well (must’ve gotten my number from one of the many competitions or something I entered and ticked the box agreeing to terms and conditions without reading them!) and said it didn’t seem secure enough for me to invest in. Plus initially they only posted results from 2008-2009, but they’ve recently updated their webpage with up to date monthly results (real or not?!)…

According to ASIC, their ACN has been registered since 1994, and former names of the company have been PIGSTONE PTY LTD and FINANCE SYNERGIES PTY. LTD. I can’t find any information about these companies.
Strangely between August 2009 and January 2010, the company has had three instances of ‘484B Change to Company Details Change of Registered Address’. Moving around for all the wrong reasons?

I would love to know more about this company, the internet is bereft of any information beyond this forum and their own website, which is quite unusual in itself.
Basically I am very cautious with investing in anything, but I would love it if this was for real…


----------



## just looking (14 April 2010)

Wanting Info said:


> We have had similar issues with this company in the past week. Does anyone have any info or results from this company?




Check out their website, they have recently added monthly results, whereas the brochure had old results from 2008/2009...

But of course, they could all be made up BS, although I googled a random selection of the horses, placings and races that were in the results and at least that info appears legit.


----------



## klf (14 April 2010)

Spanna, could you please come back to confirm whether the monthly figures on their website are legit?  From what you're saying about losing over 50% of your funds it sounds as though they are not.  I am being hassled by them at the moment and I too have been stupid enough to invest in this - I have only paid a $2,000 deposit so far though.  

I don't mind making a loss in some months as long as the overall annual results means a profit and the figures on the website reflects this, so I would like confirmation whether in fact these figures are legitimate.

Although they are few and far between there are some legitimate sports trading schemes.  I have been involved with one for a couple of years and have never had a problem withdrawing funds from them and am way in front from where I started with them, but you just don't know how long these schemes will stay up and running.  This is why I thought I would try this so all my eggs aren't in the one basket.

klf


----------



## brucechaplin (15 April 2010)

I'm another person being asked to handover the $8800 for a 3 year membership. Would love to know what is really being sold here


----------



## shiftyphil (15 April 2010)

just looking said:


> Check out their website, they have recently added monthly results, whereas the brochure had old results from 2008/2009...
> 
> But of course, they could all be made up BS, although I googled a random selection of the horses, placings and races that were in the results and at least that info appears legit.




That just proves it's easy to pick the winners if you wait until after the race.


----------



## just looking (15 April 2010)

shiftyphil said:


> That just proves it's easy to pick the winners if you wait until after the race.




Haha good point, classic, I never thought of that.
Chuck in a few losers, a bad month overshadowed by some exponentially better month and it all looks credible!


----------



## just looking (15 April 2010)

brucechaplin said:


> I'm another person being asked to handover the $8800 for a 3 year membership. Would love to know what is really being sold here




$*8800*?

It was $8000 when they called me!


----------



## Joe Blow (16 April 2010)

Given that there are many people coming to this thread seeking information on the company Commercial Securities, we feel that the following information is relevant:

We have just removed a post from this thread that was posted by an individual who registered here at ASF using an email address directly associated with the company Commercial Securities. This person did not reveal his or her association with the company but instead posed as a satisfied client.

This person's ASF account has now been suspended for what we feel is dishonest and unethical behaviour.


----------



## just looking (16 April 2010)

Thank you for posting that information, it’s much appreciated. Given the scarcity of information about this company, it’s useful to have this forum as a guide, and google brings it up as the second hit.

To pose as a successful investor seems quite a shameless way to market your company, and makes me speculate even more about them.


----------



## Bater (19 April 2010)

Hello all
I will just add my story about 3 or 4 weeks ago commercial Securities contacted me, sent me the glossy Brochure - looks good, after a couple of phone calls about 2 weeks ago they talked me into it, I would of paid then but I had no spare funds so last week i moved some money around and was going to put in the $10,000 ($8,800 for 3 years and $1,200 to trade with) this weekend. i then was going to see how well it went for a month then add more after i seen a prophet to take the trading account to $10,000 (total would of been $18,800.00 invested) where the big $$$ were made. 
I did see this forum when i was searching for info but only 2 or 3 comments posted at that time but today a lot more and i'm greatful as this helped and was the final straw not to invest
I had asked a lot of questions in the last few weeks, looked up the ACN number, read all that was mentioned in the above posts. I did find that the current address is regestered to "124 STANHILL DR, SURFERS PARADISE QLD". 
"dnb.com.au/express/order/asic_order.asp?id=1&pageFrom=ASIC&ACN=064042048"
they even gave me a contactee phone number to talk to (whom i can't get hold of)
I will be getting a phone call tomorrow from them to see how the transfer of money is going
other info they have told me is that they go public in few months and current investers would of been able to buy shares at a cheaper rate
they also told me the horse thing is a smaller part of a share trading company which they would of talked to me about in a year or so when i would have made some good $$$
I asked how they got my number and it was because i just regestered a business
this is fairly much my story and hope this helps someone else make a better informed decision
also found this about scams
"scamwatch.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/SportsInvestmentScams"
Cheers and good luck
Bater
have to copy and paste links and add www to make them work


----------



## duffyfrog (19 April 2010)

looks like we are all doing our homework. I too was about to invest and would have except my gut kept telling me something is not right. They were quite pushy and all the NSW licences have been sold but they were going to give me a WA licence anyway. If this is fair dinkum it would be brilliant but for me $18800 is too much to risk to find out. I have checked the net, fair trading and ASIC to see if this is above board, the jury is still out but at this stage I am doubtful I will go through with this investment. Anyone else have any ideas on this investment.


----------



## just looking (20 April 2010)

Bater said:


> Hello all
> I will just add my story about 3 or 4 weeks ago commercial Securities contacted me, sent me the glossy Brochure - looks good, after a couple of phone calls about 2 weeks ago they talked me into it, I would of paid then but I had no spare funds so last week i moved some money around and was going to put in the $10,000 ($8,800 for 3 years and $1,200 to trade with) this weekend. i then was going to see how well it went for a month then add more after i seen a prophet to take the trading account to $10,000 (total would of been $18,800.00 invested) where the big $$$ were made. ......




Hi Bater,

Thanks for the input. I think a fair few people would be really interested in your experiences!

The bottom line to me is:
It is a hell of a lot of money to just hand over to someone that has called up and has no apparent credentials. Worse yet, googling them comes up with their own website, and this forum discussion and nothing more. Even my own name comes up with more hits than that...


----------



## shiftyphil (20 April 2010)

Seriously guys.

Is a flashy brochure and a high pressure sales pitch really enough to convince you to fork over nearly $20k?


----------



## just looking (20 April 2010)

shiftyphil said:


> Seriously guys.
> 
> Is a flashy brochure and a high pressure sales pitch really enough to convince you to fork over nearly $20k?




No of course not... That's why we're trying to find out more here, as there is nowhere else that has discussed this opganisation that I can find.

The returns they are offering are very very tempting, and don't seem all that unfeasible…

But I need a lot more than a glossy brochure, sales pitch, oh and even the 16 years the company has been registered with ASIC, to hand over my savings...


----------



## duffyfrog (20 April 2010)

just looking said:


> No of course not... That's why we're trying to find out more here, as there is nowhere else that has discussed this opganisation that I can find.
> 
> The returns they are offering are very very tempting, and don't seem all that unfeasible…
> 
> But I need a lot more than a glossy brochure, sales pitch, oh and even the 16 years the company has been registered with ASIC, to hand over my savings...




I'm with you just looking. I would love to find out more about this investment. They keep ringing me to pay but at this stage I won't until  I am convinced this is above board. I would love to hear from investors on how it has gone in the past.


----------



## shiftyphil (20 April 2010)

It's a scam. It's not a new scam, just a new name.


----------



## just looking (22 April 2010)

shiftyphil said:


> It's a scam. It's not a new scam, just a new name.




Well that settles that then I guess! 
Hopefully this thread continues, just out of curiosity...


----------



## drsmith (22 April 2010)

duffyfrog said:


> I'm with you just looking. I would love to find out more about this investment. They keep ringing me to pay but at this stage I won't until  I am convinced this is above board. I would love to hear from investors on how it has gone in the past.



There's one or two on this thread who (regretfully) would have been better off taking up my offer from the first page of this thread.

Next time they ring, tell them to .... off or if you prefer a more gentlemanly approach, just hang up.


----------



## drsmith (22 April 2010)

spanna said:


> We were one of the foolish ones to purchase a licence from this group. We were told all about the profits and gains and "secure, consistent and stable financial freedom". Three months down the track we have lost more than 50% of the funds we invested (this is not including the $8000 licence fee we had to pay!). We cannot believe how gullible we were. I searched them on the Internet many times and it has not been until recently that I found posts such as this one. This makes me think they have only started up recently, not five years ago like they said. Yes we were stupid...



Only minor compensation I know but the fact that you have had the courage to post your experience will help others.

Is there any legal recourse ?


----------



## Chris45 (22 April 2010)

I wonder if *Larry Pickering* et alia have got something to do with this.  http://www.larrypickering.blogspot.com/


----------



## sloppy (23 April 2010)

I too am getting hassled on a weekly basis by these guys.....Warren Dunn is it...ring a bell...is this guy even real?

The only way for this co to prove their legitimacy is;

Send us the bets to be placed, for a period of one month.

The info can be sent 5 or 10 minutes BEFORE each race starts, by SMS or email

As long the bet info is sent BEFORE each race, then we have no reason to doubt their betting strategy.

This is what I will be asking Mr Dunn for next time he calls!


----------



## drsmith (23 April 2010)

sloppy said:


> I too am getting hassled on a weekly basis by these guys.....Warren Dunn is it...ring a bell...is this guy even real?



He's obviously not a gentleman so the next time he rings give him the two short words suggested above prior to hanging up.


----------



## lawtownnz (23 April 2010)

I would love to here from Spanna who said that they made a loss on it. According to their website they have made gains. 

I know that their tactics seem rather crude, that is, the brochere and the chasing. However, I had the same with TradersCircle but it has been successful investing with them. 

So before we are quick to judge I like to know what the real figures are.


----------



## drsmith (23 April 2010)

lawtownnz said:


> I would love to here from Spanna who said that they made a loss on it. According to their website they have made gains.



1) You all ready have. He made a loss.



lawtownnz said:


> I know that their tactics seem rather crude, that is, the brochere and the chasing. However, I had the same with TradersCircle but it has been successful investing with them.



2) If it's that good then, why are they flogging it instead of using it ?



lawtownnz said:


> So before we are quick to judge I like to know what the real figures are.



3) See 1 above.


----------



## So_Cynical (23 April 2010)

This thread is bizarre...i really don't know what to make of it, there's posts that are pure comedy gold, and others that are just simply disturbing...its all somewhat unreal.

These schemes pray on people that are stupid/gullible enough to believe in them, because the other 98% of the population just isn't that  stupid/gullible...and so they simply cant profit from them...so they can pretty much claim anything they want.

Life sucks for some people.


----------



## hhralhh (24 April 2010)

It seems to be that I was also one of the foolish ones. I was chased by this company in January until I signed their paper and deposited the money. I paid the $8800 for the licence plus $3000 for the trade investment. I have been monitoring the account since then and now have lost more than 50% of the funds I invested. I tried to contact the salesman many times without success. I was promised by the customer service that someone will call me but no one did. When I checked their web site, the company included reports for the past three months (those three months that I lost half of my fund). The reports indicate profit for January and March! I think I was scammed with misleading information. These reports proves how the company cheated me and others by providing false information when I compared their reports to the reports in my fund.
Gents, I will be starting my legal action by first reporting my case to ASIC and ACCC. I encourage the others to do the same please. By doing that we will be supporting each other to stop this scam or who knows we might be able to be successful to get back our monies by legal actions.


----------



## Ferret (24 April 2010)

I can't believe this thread either.  How can so many people not have heard " if it sounds too good to be true ...."


----------



## drsmith (24 April 2010)

hhralhh said:


> I have been monitoring the account since then and now have lost more than 50% of the funds I invested.



Pull the remainder out before you lose that too.



hhralhh said:


> When I checked their web site, the company included reports for the past three months (those three months that I lost half of my fund). The reports indicate profit for January and March! I think I was scammed with misleading information. These reports proves how the company cheated me and others by providing false information when I compared their reports to the reports in my fund.
> Gents, I will be starting my legal action by first reporting my case to ASIC and ACCC. I encourage the others to do the same please. By doing that we will be supporting each other to stop this scam or who knows we might be able to be successful to get back our monies by legal actions.



I don't fancy your chances of getting your money back but if there is evidence that demonstrates fraud then those running the scheme may face criminal charges. That might slow them up a bit.


----------



## drsmith (24 April 2010)

Colonel Flagg said:


> I was cold called about a week ago and they sent out the glossy pamphlet.
> 
> I received a call today following up, but when I said I thought it looked like a scam, she got all defensive and threatened to sue me !!!



That kind of unlady like phone manner should be responded to in the same way as ungentlemanly like phone manner described above.

When cold called you are under no obligation to justify you position if you don't like it, even if they ask. Thay are after all invading your privacy for their own personal gain. The above kind of bullying tactics are designed to keep potential customers engaged in the hope that they will ultimately make a sale.

If you don't like it, just hang up.


----------



## Causes (27 April 2010)

Thanks for the good advices. No I will not be investing.

From a cold call 3-4 weeks ago I have been parrying with a salesman who forwarded a glossy brochure, showed good returns, $56,000, two further levels above, with a possible IPO in the future. When pushed could not give me details until "I had served my time" my words. 

Last Saturday I was waiting for a sample of the "investments", they did not arrive. The choice of "referee" was only one, not good enough, You have all heard it before, its the same story.

Causes


----------



## Another One1 (29 April 2010)

Why would people even think about investing in gambling because that's what it is. If you want to make money fast buy a lotto ticket because you have better odds of winning. 

These horse racing scams have been around for twenty years can't believe people are still buying them. Why would them sell them to the public if they work, wouldn't you think they would sit back and become rich doing it themselves!


----------



## Nickb (3 May 2010)

I am another stupid invester but I was sucked in a different way I told them that I didn't have to money so they gave me this licenses that cost $5800 then starting with $1000 in the account they had to make $10000 in 6 months and I would have to pay the extra $3000 which if they could do that would be fine BUT I started this in November last year with $2000 in the account thinking it would build quicker which in the first week I thought I was onto something good because they had the account $900 ahead but then they lost it all plus more now the account balance is on about $800 I guess in a way I am more fortunate then others as I am only losing $7800 which is still less then some people are paying for a full license then having to put more money in the account for them to lose then I have rang them constantly and complained the only excuse I keep getting is they are working hard to try and turn it around but I know that will never happen I have tryed to cancel it but the reply I got is that I situation falls outside there refund policy and as for those results on the website that is a different stratergy they have been testing over the last year and were getting better results so they have only just started using it now that is why everything they put on is only for the win so all I want to say to everyone reading this thread if they ring you run a hundred mile in the other direction there so called system does not work


----------



## drsmith (4 May 2010)

Nickb said:


> I thought I was onto something good because they had the account $900 ahead but then they lost it all plus more now the account balance is on about $800



Is your account balance +$800 or -$800 ?

If it's +$800, what do you have to do to get it out ?
If it's -$800 and you have not signed up for finance with them, be ungentlemanly the next time they ring prior to hanging up.


----------



## Nickb (4 May 2010)

The account balance is $800 so they have lost $2100 in about 5 months if you include the $900 they won at the start


----------



## just looking (4 May 2010)

Nickb said:


> The account balance is $800 so they have lost $2100 in about 5 months if you include the $900 they won at the start




That's no good at all.

Well seems like they're committing some kind of fraud by advertising the results they are on their website.

According to it, the last 5 months have realised a $20,000 profit (Nov - March), based on a $10,000 account I assume, but still.

Dodgy, shonky shamsters. Can't wait for them to call me back and give them a piece of my mind.

Speaking of which, I gave ASIC a heads up and got a generic 'watch out for gambling' scams email back. Don't they want to be a bit more proactive? Guess not....


----------



## drsmith (4 May 2010)

Nickb said:


> The account balance is $800 so they have lost $2100 in about 5 months if you include the $900 they won at the start



What are you going to do with that $800 ?

Are you going to withdraw it ?


----------



## Nickb (4 May 2010)

Well considering that the licenses go for 3 years and there is no way I can get it refunded I am just going to leave it there and when they have lost it all they will not be getting another dollar. Tell you what over the odds which is the Northern Territories equivalent to TAB must absolutley love commercial securities they are just raking it in and they don't even have to do a thing


----------



## drsmith (4 May 2010)

just looking said:


> Can't wait for them to call me back and give them a piece of my mind.



After you give them a serve, don't give them a change to respond. Hang up immediately.

Otherwise they will still consider you a potential customer.


----------



## drsmith (4 May 2010)

Nickb said:


> Well considering that the licenses go for 3 years and there is no way I can get it refunded I am just going to leave it there and when they have lost it all they will not be getting another dollar.



Are they refusing to give you back the $800 left in your account ?


----------



## Richardhead (4 May 2010)

Gee I wish I,d stumbled upon this site before I was stupid enough to sign up> Yes the information sounded to good to be true And like everybody else  says they are very persistant and persuavive untill you want to talk to them after the money starts dissappearing. I signed up in febuary spent 8800 for the management fee and 5000 to gamble with and according to there statics the are really rakeing in the cashfunny my over the odds account is less now 2200 and I am trying to stop any more hits.
Today I reported them to ASIC and they told me because commercial securities is a gambling company its not there department.ASIC said to report them to ACCC or the Department of Fair Trading. I doubt I will see any of my hard earned money but I would love to see the thieves get what they deserve


----------



## drsmith (4 May 2010)

Richardhead said:


> funny my over the odds account is less now 2200 and I am trying to stop any more hits.



You can't suspend further transactions on the account ?

ACCC

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/54217


----------



## alz (4 May 2010)

I heard about Commercial Securities from this bloke at work and have been following this thread for about a week. I contacted ASIC and according to them Commercial have no complaints against them. What I would like to know is how do these people make their money? OK there's the $8,800 "licence fee" which is, I believe, a one off payment. But once word gets out that their returns are bogus then who would want to hand over the licence fee? Wouldn't they just try to sell as many licences in a short period of time and then close up shop, that would be more scam like. Do they receive an ongoing royalty or income? Are the book makers in on it too and do they give Commercial some sort of commission? I don't quite get how they source their income.


----------



## RedFlagMeister (5 May 2010)

Causes said:


> Thanks for the good advices. No I will not be investing.
> 
> From a cold call 3-4 weeks ago I have been parrying with a salesman who forwarded a glossy brochure, showed good returns, $56,000, two further levels above, with a possible IPO in the future. When pushed could not give me details until "I had served my time" my words.
> 
> ...




I too am currently being woo-ed by a lady called Natalie Hall representing Commercial Securities. She wants $8800 from me up-front for a 3-year membership, and recommended I invest a minimum of $1,000 into my "fully managed trading acount", with a view to "top it up" when I could afford to.

I initially received a glossy brochure after a cold call, and then a follow-up call approx 1 week later. I had read the paperwork and formed a list of questions to ask in the next call. She smoothly rattled off answers to all the obvious questions (red flag #1) and promised to send me the most recent results, as I highlighted to her that the results in the brochure were nearly 12 months old (red flag #2).

I did ring the sole referee she gave me and (Maree) sounded smoother than Natalie herself!! (red flag #3)

She even offered to talk to my wife about the structure of their "investment process" if I thought it was necessary to "make her understand"!!

This was the final red flag (#4) for me, so I politely said I'd think about it, and will ring her back if I wanted to proceed. She insisted that she would follow-up in a few days as there were only 10 spots remaining in South Australia and "she didn't want such a lovely person to miss out"...

I then found this thread (thank you everyone) and have no intention of answering any more of her phone calls.

Since that last call I have had no less than 15 missed calls from a "private number". A brief message was left on a couple of occasions, something about "only 2 left in SA". I have also had 4 missed calls from a mobile number (0450 xxx 706) which I know are also from her as they have each occurred a few minutes after the attempted private number calls!! Derrr....

I'd love to trick them into thinking I was going to invest and string them along for a while, but I don't have the time or energy. It all just makes me mad. I think I will also contact ASIC and see if I can register a complaint.

BTW, the latest results they sent me were $6,570.00 PROFIT for Jan 2010, a $2,360.00 LOSS for Feb 2010 and a $2,330.00 PROFIT for March 2010 - all based on an opening balance of $10,000 each month..... sounds alright doesn't it ... if it were true....

The one thing I didn't go to the trouble of checking was whether or not all the horses listed in the glossy brochure, actually did run and win on the dates said ..... did anyone else? 

Who is to know if they really selected them BEFORE the races anyhow ..... dodgy bunch of thieves ...


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2010)

RedFlagMeister said:


> I'd love to trick them into thinking I was going to invest and string them along for a while, but I don't have the time or energy. It all just makes me mad. I think I will also contact ASIC and see if I can register a complaint.



Every second of your life wasted on these crooks is a second you won't get back.

Another ungentlemanly reply followed by a not so subtle "hang up" is in order should they ring again.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2010)

alz said:


> Do they receive an ongoing royalty or income?



Yes. These parasites take advantage of people's natural instinct to gamble.

On the subject of cold-calling in general, it should be illegal where there's no ongoing business relationship between the two parties.

That would stop a lot of this crap.


----------



## just looking (6 May 2010)

RedFlagMeister said:


> The one thing I didn't go to the trouble of checking was whether or not all the horses listed in the glossy brochure, actually did run and win on the dates said ..... did anyone else?
> 
> Who is to know if they really selected them BEFORE the races anyhow ..... dodgy bunch of thieves ...




Thanks for this post, it's a good one to inform others. As I said, if this thread had been at this stage when they called me and I googled "commercial securities", I would've laughed at them instead of wasting time even considering it.

I did go as far as to test their results on horses running, results and dates and locations they ran, and of course they came up as being true to history... but like you said, and someone else pointed out - "it's easy to pick winners after the race"!

I'm enjoying the fact that this little discussion thread could be enough to stop the shamsters getting their way. I am kind of hoping they do call me back and I can point them in this direction to better inform them on the real results that their company is achieving


----------



## shiftyphil (6 May 2010)

alz said:


> What I would like to know is how do these people make their money? OK there's the $8,800 "licence fee" which is, I believe, a one off payment. But once word gets out that their returns are bogus then who would want to hand over the licence fee? Wouldn't they just try to sell as many licences in a short period of time and then close up shop, that would be more scam like. Do they receive an ongoing royalty or income? Are the book makers in on it too and do they give Commercial some sort of commission? I don't quite get how they source their income.




They change their name regularly. Commercial Securities has only just been created recently, but the scammers themselves have been around under other names.
The fact that their current ABN has been registered for a few years means nothing, it had a completely different name a few months ago. They probably bought it from someone.



RedFlagMeister said:


> I'd love to trick them into thinking I was going to invest and string them along for a while, but I don't have the time or energy. It all just makes me mad. I think I will also contact ASIC and see if I can register a complaint.



(This has been mentioned before by someone, but probably lost in the noise.)

ASIC won't want to know.
http://www.fido.gov.au/fido/fido.ns...ing+betting+and+gambling+systems?openDocument ->
"Gambling systems aren’t investments. Horse races are not financial products or services. And for these reasons, computerised horse racing systems generally lie outside ASIC's responsibilities."

Your local Office of Fair Trading or the ACCC are the guys to contact.

Some more info here.
http://www.scamwatch.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/SportsInvestmentScams
http://www.scamwatch.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/694011



> Who is to know if they really selected them BEFORE the races anyhow ..... dodgy bunch of thieves ...




It's so much easier to pick after the races are finished. In fact, I can pick the winners of the last five Melbourne Cups with almost 100% accuracy.


----------



## just looking (6 May 2010)

shiftyphil said:


> It's so much easier to pick after the races are finished. In fact, I can pick the winners of the last five Melbourne Cups with almost 100% accuracy.




Hehehe,"almost"


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2010)

just looking said:


> I'm enjoying the fact that this little discussion thread could be enough to stop the shamsters getting their way. I am kind of hoping they do call me back and I can point them in this direction to better inform them on the real results that their company is achieving



If you realise they are shamsters then you should also realise that they allready know the real results their company is achieving.  They don't care what anyone thinks so telling them is a waste of time.

A more worthwhile course of action might be to write to local members (both State and Federal) about the above with a view to getting cold-call marketing laws tightened.


----------



## shiftyphil (6 May 2010)

just looking said:


> Hehehe,"almost"




That's the key to making it believable.


----------



## Seal (7 May 2010)

Another One1 said:


> Has anyone heard of Commercial Securities? They are trying to sell me a program which they say profits 50k per year on betting on horses!!!




Commercial Securities Pty Ltd…
First and foremost, I would like to thank everyone whom has contributed to this thread. Had I not come across this forum and read through everyone’s comments on Commercial Securities’ investment proposal, I too may have ended up in the deep end. 
I too was contacted on my mobile by John Morgan of Commercial Securities offering this unbelievable investment opportunity. $8800 membership fee for three years and $1000 to $10,000 in a trading account that I can access my funds through. I was told that if I were to invest $1000 to start, it would build up into $10,000 in 4-6 months. Then I would be contacted to withdraw some funds ensuring I don’t go over the tax free threshold so the earnings on the account would be tax free. John also said my share portfolio earnings would not affect this tax free threshold as it is separate from the Gaming Industry.
They claimed to have purchased a software package from Kerry Packer before he died that predicts and makes their selections in the horse races. Also the bloke that advised Kerry Packer in his investments/trades is now working for Commercial Securities, just to put some cream on it.
I have been contacted by John twice so far in the last two days but have put him off, leading him to believe I am sourcing funds and discussing it with my spouse. 
Of the 200 lots available in WA & NT, yesterday there were only 7 lots left and today there are only 2 lots available, to create an urgency.
They are listed as registered on ASIC’s website and their ABN & ACN are current. Their registered office is located in Southport, QLD 4215 but the info I got from John on an email shows they are at 65 Hume Street, Crows Nest, NSW 2065. They have changed their address with ASIC three times since Aug 2009. There is no way in God’s world I would invest my hard earned dollars in this company, there are too many red flags for me. Some questions I have asked myself are… 
1.If these systems produce a guaranteed, risk-free profit, why are they trying to sell the scheme to me instead of using it to make millions themselves?
2.How can a machine/software predict a result where luck or unforeseen events are involved?
3.Why would a man as astute as the bloke that advised Kerry Packer want to waste his time working for this company and sell his expertise to me.
4.Why have they changed locations several times? This may give you some idea about the history and stability of the company.
5.Has the company sent ASIC any financial details? I couldn’t find any.
6.Who are the directors and company officers? I couldn’t find any.
7.Who are the members of the company? I found more through this forum than through the company themselves.
8.Why would someone sell me a system that can guarantee them a profit if they kept it for themselves?
9.If it is so great, why haven’t I heard of it before and why isn’t everyone doing it?

Sorry this is so long in the tooth but I don’t think I would invest in them and I hope this helps others to protect themselves from the dangers of these kinds of people. I will be reporting them to ACCC shortly. 

My internet investigations found the following useful websites...

Australian Securities & Investment Commission (ASIC) website,

FIDO website; Financial Tips & Safety Checks,

FIDO website; Tricks of Telephone Investment Frauds,

FIDO website; Cold Calling Phone Investment Scams,

Australian Competition Consumer Commission (ACCC) website,

From the ACCC website; there is a link to…
SCAMwatch/Investment scams (get-rich-quick)/Sports investment scams,

Quarkbase website; This is a website that enables you to search for information on any website. In the Social Comments section of Quarkbase is where I came across the Aussie Stock Forums website.
From Quarkbase , I also came across another company in the USA, JP Morgan Chase Commercial Securities Corporation. The person to contact me from Commercial Securities Pty Ltd was John Morgan.
It’s amazing that the names are so similar; I wonder if that is where they got the idea for their company name.
Search; commercial securities on Quarkbase 

Austrade website; Australian Trade Commission,

Do Not Call Register website; Cancel all incoming telemarketing calls,


----------



## Another One1 (7 May 2010)

Whats 33 bucks, it gets you the report which tells you who directors and share holders and past changes.

COMMERCIAL SECURITIES PTY LTD  

This computer produced extract contains information derived from the ASIC database either from documents lodged with the ASIC and processed as at the stated date of the extract, or from records supplied by previous state and/or territory systems. 

Please advise the ASIC promptly of any error or omission which you may find so that they can correct it.


Company Name COMMERCIAL SECURITIES PTY LTD  
ACN  064042048 
ABN 18064042048  
Place Of Registration N/A  
State Of Registration QLD 
Previous State No.  
Date Registered 23 Mar 1994  
Extract Date 10 Mar 2010 

Current Organisation Details 

Name COMMERCIAL SECURITIES PTY LTD  
Details Start Date 22 Jun 2009  
Details End Date N/A  
Name Start Date 22 Jun 2009  
Company Status Registered 
Company Type Australian Proprietary Company  
Company Class Limited By Shares  
Company Sub Class Proprietary Company  
Date Deregistered N/A  
Reason Deregistered N/A  

Previous Organisation Details 

Name PIGSTONE PTY LTD  
Details Start Date 28 Jun 1995  
Details End Date 21 Jun 2009  
Name Start Date 28 Jun 1995  
Company Status Registered  
Company Type Australian Proprietary Company  
Company Class Limited By Shares  
Company Sub Class Proprietary Company  
Date Deregistered N/A  
Reason Deregistered N/A  

Name FINANCE SYNERGIES PTY. LTD.  
Details Start Date 23 Mar 1994  
Details End Date 27 Jun 1995  
Name Start Date 23 Mar 1994  
Company Status Registered  
Company Type Australian Proprietary Company  
Company Class Limited By Shares  
Company Sub Class Exempt Proprietary Company  
Date Deregistered N/A  
Reason Deregistered N/A  

Registered Office 
Address: THE MBA PARTNERSHIP PTY LTD  
 'PIVOTAL POINT' LEVEL 3  
 50 MARINE PARADE  
 SOUTHPORT  
 QLD 4215 
Start Date: 28 Jan 2010 





Principal Place Of Business 
Address: LEVEL 21  
 300 QUEEN STREET  
 BRISBANE  
 QLD 4000 
Start Date: 22 Jun 2009 

Previous Principal Place Of Business 
Address: 290 FERRY ROAD  
 BUNDALL  
 QLD 4217 
Start Date: 21 Jan 2002 
End Date: 21 Jun 2009 


NOTE:
Section 146A of the Corporations Act 2001 states 'A contact address is the address to which communications and notices are sent from ASIC to the company.'  

Director 

ZOEI CHARISSA , KEONG  
Address: 8 SUNDOWN DRIVE  
 PARADISE POINT  
 QLD 4216 
Born: 07 Jul 1983 - TOOWOOMBA , QLD  
Appointed Date: 09 Jun 2009 

Previous Director(s) 

MICHAEL JOHN , FEATHERSTONE  
Address: 290 FERRY ROAD  
 BUNDALL  
 QLD 4217 
Born: 13 May 1963 - MUNDUBBERA , QLD  
Appointed Date: 15 Jun 1995 
Ceased Date: 09 Jun 2009 

CRAIG , PIGGIN  
Address: 16 BRADBROOK STREET  
 SOUTHPORT  
 QLD 4215 
Born: 14 Jul 1965 - CAMPSIE , NSW  
Appointed Date: 15 Jun 1995 
Ceased Date: 09 Jun 2009 

JODIE ANNE , PIGGIN  
Address: 16 BRADBROOK STREET  
 SOUTHPORT  
 QLD 4215 
Born: 14 Dec 1970 - SOUTHPORT , QLD  
Appointed Date: 15 Jun 1995 
Ceased Date: 09 Jun 2009 

LEONIE THERESE , FEATHERSTONE  
Address: 28 BORONIA DRIVE  
 SOUTHPORT  
 QLD 4215 
Born: 16 Nov 1961 - BOULIA , QLD  
Appointed Date: 15 Jun 1995 
Ceased Date: 16 Apr 1997 

BRETT ANDREW , GARDINER  
Address: 9 BORONIA DRIVE  
 SOUTHPORT  
 QLD 4215 
Born: 14 Jul 1968 - MELBOURNE , VIC  
Appointed Date: 23 Mar 1994 
Ceased Date: 15 Jun 1995 

SHAYNE MICHAEL , FERGUS  
Address: UNIT 42  
 16 CRESCENT AVENUE  
 MERMAID BEACH  
 QLD 4218 
Born: 25 Jun 1966 - MELBOURNE , VIC  
Appointed Date: 23 Mar 1994 
Ceased Date: 15 Jun 1995 

RODERICK JOHN , NEIBLING  
Address: 15 HAYWARD STREET  
 PADDINGTON  
 QLD 4064 
Born: 09 Aug 1969 - MACKAY , QLD  
Appointed Date: 23 Mar 1994 
Ceased Date: 23 Mar 1994 

MATTHEW JAMES , NEIBLING  
Address: 15 HAYWARD STREET  
 PADDINGTON  
 QLD 4064 
Born: 11 Mar 1968 - MACKAY , QLD  
Appointed Date: 23 Mar 1994 
Ceased Date: 23 Mar 1994 

Secretary 

ZOEI CHARISSA , KEONG  
Address: 8 SUNDOWN DRIVE  
 PARADISE POINT  
 QLD 4216 
Born: 07 Jul 1983 - TOOWOOMBA , QLD  
Appointed Date: 09 Jun 2009 

Previous Secretary(s) 

MICHAEL JOHN , FEATHERSTONE  
Address: 290 FERRY ROAD  
 BUNDALL  
 QLD 4217 
Born: 13 May 1963 - MUNDUBBERA , QLD  
Appointed Date: 15 Jun 1995 
Ceased Date: 09 Jun 2009 

CRAIG , PIGGIN  
Address: 16 BRADBROOK STREET  
 SOUTHPORT  
 QLD 4215 
Born: 14 Jul 1965 - CAMPSIE , NSW  
Appointed Date: 15 Jun 1995 
Ceased Date: 09 Jun 2009 

SHAYNE MICHAEL , FERGUS  
Address: UNIT 42  
 16 CRESCENT AVENUE  
 MERMAID BEACH  
 QLD 4218 
Born: 25 Jun 1966 - MELBOURNE , VIC  
Appointed Date: 23 Mar 1994 
Ceased Date: 15 Jun 1995 

RODERICK JOHN , NEIBLING  
Address: 15 HAYWARD STREET  
 PADDINGTON  
 QLD 4064 
Born: 09 Aug 1969 - MACKAY , QLD  
Appointed Date: 23 Mar 1994 
Ceased Date: 23 Mar 1994 

Share Structure 

Class Code ORD  
Class Title ORDINARY  

Document Number Qualifier (AR 1995)  
Number of Shares 6  
Total Amount To Be Paid $6.00  
Total Amount Due $0.00  


Shareholders 

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  6  
Beneficially Owned:  No  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier:  
Joint: No   
ZOEI CHARISSA KEONG  
8 SUNDOWN DRIVE 
PARADISE POINT 
QLD 4216  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Previous Shareholders 

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1995)  
Joint: No   
LEONIE THERESE FEATHERSTONE  
28 BORONIA DRIVE 
SOUTHPORT 
QLD 4215  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1995)  
Joint: No   
CRAIG PIGGIN  
16 BRADBROOK STREET 
SOUTHPORT 
QLD 4215  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1995)  
Joint: No   
JODIE ANNE PIGGIN  
16 BRADBROOK STREET 
SOUTHPORT 
QLD 4215  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1995)  
Joint: No   
FEATHERSTONE FAMILY TRUST  
28 BORONIA DRIVE 
SOUTHPORT 
QLD 4215  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1995)  
Joint: No   
PIGGIN FAMILY TRUST  
16 BRADBROOK STREET 
SOUTHPORT 
QLD 4215  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 2001)  
Joint: No   
MICHAEL JOHN FEATHERSTONE  
290 FERRY ROAD 
BUNDALL 
QLD 4217  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1994)  
Joint: No   
SHAYNE MICHAEL FERGUS  
UNIT 42 
16 CRESCENT AVENUE 
MERMAID BEACH 
QLD 4218  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1994)  
Joint: No   
BRETT ANDREW GARDINER  
9 BORONIA DRIVE 
SOUTHPORT 
QLD 4215  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Class:  ORD  Number Held:  1  
Beneficially Owned:  Yes  Fully Paid:  Yes  
Document Number Qualifier (AR 1994)  
Joint: No   
010736633 - FERGUS ACCEPTANCE CORPORATION PTY LTD  
C/- HEAD CHEEL THOMPSON 
LEVEL 8 NIECON TOWER 
17-19 VICTORIA AVENUE 
BROADBEACH 
QLD 4218  





This has all the info if you ever need to chase them!


----------



## just looking (7 May 2010)

Brilliant stuff AnotherOne!
Kind of interesting...

Weird, they are located on the level above our old office in Brisbane...


----------



## drsmith (7 May 2010)

Seal said:


> Commercial Securities Pty Ltd…
> They claimed to have purchased a software package from Kerry Packer before he died that predicts and makes their selections in the horse races. Also the bloke that advised Kerry Packer in his investments/trades is now working for Commercial Securities, just to put some cream on it.



Is that Kerry I hear turning in hs grave ?



Seal said:


> I have been contacted by John twice so far in the last two days but have put him off, leading him to believe I am sourcing funds and discussing it with my spouse.



That won't put him off for long. Sourcing funds will have you on the short list. I trust you have been practicing your "hanging up" technique. 



Seal said:


> 8.Why would someone sell me a system that can guarantee them a profit if they kept it for themselves?



That's the only question that needs to be considered.

Very simple really.


----------



## PVK (11 May 2010)

Hi,

Finding this thread has been a "God Send" I too have been rung and sent emails, things in the post etc. I kept asking questions on why they sell etc. Told me they can't use it as they work for company blah blah blah. They were very pushy, so I decided to do some searching and found that they were listed at an address in NSW and in Victoria in Glenroy with a mobile phone number as the contact. Very suspicious of it and then I found this thread. I have emailed them the following. I know what the answer is, but safe to say, I would never invest.

Dear Peter,

Thanks for the information. After looking at your returns and company information, I wonder if you could either email me or text me your selections or via  for up the rest of May before the horses run. I am not interested in betting, but would like to see your results so I can make an informed choice. I am not keen to part with my hard earned money on something that I can not  test or evaluate

Thanks,


Lets see what I get back. I bet nothing via email

Regards and thanks


----------



## drsmith (11 May 2010)

PVK said:


> I bet nothing via email



So do I. They'll concentrate on more gullible targets.


----------



## just looking (11 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> So do I. They'll concentrate on more gullible targets.




Or else given the fact that one of the scumbags posted on this thread a while back posing as a successful investor, I'm guessing they'll read that post and not bother!

Everyone wave to the people at commercial securities!:bekloppt:


----------



## PVK (12 May 2010)

No email, just a frantic phone call to call urgently. I won't be calling back of course or emailing. Just going to leave it. I think they will call for at least a few more times after baiting me enough. 

Guess I don't answer anything with an "unknown: number

cheers


----------



## shiftyphil (12 May 2010)

just looking said:


> Or else given the fact that one of the scumbags posted on this thread a while back posing as a successful investor, I'm guessing they'll read that post and not bother!
> 
> Everyone wave to the people at commercial securities!:bekloppt:




Best part is that Google has this thread as the top result for "commercial securities". Guess they're going to have to change their name again.


----------



## drsmith (12 May 2010)

PVK said:


> Guess I don't answer anything with an "unknown: number



If the phone rings, answer it as you normally would.

If it's Commercial Securities, hang up immediately without saying anything (two short words prior to hanging up as outlined on page 2 of this thread optional).

The best way to get these leeches off your back is to show them YOU are the one in control of the situation. Whatever you do, don't engage in conversation with them.


----------



## RazzaDazzla (12 May 2010)

Joe Blow said:


> Given that there are many people coming to this thread seeking information on the company Commercial Securities, we feel that the following information is relevant:
> 
> We have just removed a post from this thread that was posted by an individual who registered here at ASF using an email address directly associated with the company Commercial Securities. This person did not reveal his or her association with the company but instead posed as a satisfied client.
> 
> This person's ASF account has now been suspended for what we feel is dishonest and unethical behaviour.




Hahaha you'd think they'd at least be smart enough to use a hotmail address?


----------



## PVK (14 May 2010)

Hi,

Did get a reply (message) which said it was impossilbe to text or email me selections as they were finalised in the last few minutes before the jump. They then referred me to the last five years and the results on the website which are obviously inflated.


----------



## just looking (14 May 2010)

PVK said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did get a reply (message) which said it was impossilbe to text or email me selections as they were finalised in the last few minutes before the jump. They then referred me to the last five years and the results on the website which are obviously inflated.




HA!
A likely story...


----------



## JayJay (17 May 2010)

Thanks for all your responses.  I was initially called in February about this offer and couldn't find any information so I didn't take it up at that time but did not discount it.

I was called again today, to tell me that the reasons that they hadn't been in touch was because all the licenses had been sold.  However, they said a lady, who paid a non-refundable deposit of $3k was unable to raise the balance, so they were offering me the license for the discounted price of the $5,800 balance outstanding.  

Wonder how many will be offered this opportunity?  I am looking forward to their followup call 

Cheers
JJ


----------



## SPOT1 (18 May 2010)

Hi All, my experience so far....

I was offered the $5800 package + minimum $1000 betting account and the promise to pay the remainder ($3000) or not pay this if the account had not made at least a $10,000 profit in 6 months. 

I was contacted about this last year and dismissed it as it sounded to good to be true, I then was contacted again last week so decided to do a little internet research and found this forum thread. I then decided to discuss the concerns I have about the legitimacy of the programme with the salesperson who contacted me and have recieved similar comments posted on this forum.

I also mentioned to the person on the phone about this thread and what others were suggesting and was told they were aware of this and that the people who were posting about negative experiences with the scheme were ex ... disgruntled employees.....

I have stipulated that the only way I would even consider this would be to receive the bets to be placed for the day at the start of the day and would monitor this over a week. This was no problem for them and recieved 1 of the two horses to be followed for tomorrow and will recieve the 2nd tomorrow morning...  and I will update on how this goes, will be interesting.

Not saying either way that this is or isn’t a scam but thought I would add my experience to help others and will continue to do so over the next few days.


----------



## drsmith (18 May 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> I also mentioned to the person on the phone about this thread and what others were suggesting and was told they were aware of this and that the people who were posting about negative experiences with the scheme were ex ... disgruntled employees.....
> 
> I have stipulated that the only way I would even consider this would be to receive the bets to be placed for the day at the start of the day and would monitor this over a week. This was no problem for them and recieved 1 of the two horses to be followed for tomorrow and will recieve the 2nd tomorrow morning...  and I will update on how this goes, will be interesting.
> 
> Not saying either way that this is or isn’t a scam but thought I would add my experience to help others and will continue to do so over the next few days.



You are either a current employee or a fool.


----------



## SPOT1 (18 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> You are either a current employee or a fool.




drsmith thanks for the positive feedback for someone trying to provide an experience on the subject we are discussing.
I want to firstly point out that I am not saying I have invested in this at all and am not saying that this is not a scam, it may be and that it what I believe all people on this forum are trying to confirm one way or another. 
Secondly I want to point out that you are saying other people who have and have lost money are ... fools, I personally feel that is not very nice. If this is in fact a scam then I think a little more sensitivity is required for those people or if nothing else don’t say anything at all. It is people like you that will stop someone for posting their own experience online for other people to learn, this after all is the reason behind discussion forums.
I am merely trying to give information so people can make an informed decision, definitely more useful than your many posts about nothing more than a recommended phone manner.


----------



## drsmith (18 May 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> drsmith thanks for the positive feedback for someone trying to provide an experience on the subject we are discussing.
> I want to firstly point out that I am not saying I have invested in this at all



You would be a fool if you did but then I think you know that.



SPOT1 said:


> and am not saying that this is not a scam,



It's a scam.



SPOT1 said:


> it may be and that it what I believe all people on this forum are trying to confirm one way or another.



It's a scam.



SPOT1 said:


> Secondly I want to point out that you are saying other people who have and have lost money are ... fools, I personally feel that is not very nice.



It's not very nice to rip somoene off, fool or otherwise.



SPOT1 said:


> If this is in fact a scam



IT'S A SCAM.



SPOT1 said:


> then I think a little more sensitivity is required for those people or if nothing else don’t say anything at all.



If I wish to point out this is a scam then I will. The less taken in by this the better.



SPOT1 said:


> It is people like you that will stop someone for posting their own experience online for other people to learn, this after all is the reason behind discussion forums.



I'm not stopping anybody. It's a free forum. The less posts trying to give this an air of legitimacy though, the better.



SPOT1 said:


> I am merely trying to give information so people can make an informed decision, definitely more useful than your many posts about nothing more than a recommended phone manner.



Two short words come to mind here.


----------



## Another One1 (19 May 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> drsmith thanks for the positive feedback for someone trying to provide an experience on the subject we are discussing.
> I want to firstly point out that I am not saying I have invested in this at all and am not saying that this is not a scam, it may be and that it what I believe all people on this forum are trying to confirm one way or another.
> Secondly I want to point out that you are saying other people who have and have lost money are ... fools, I personally feel that is not very nice. If this is in fact a scam then I think a little more sensitivity is required for those people or if nothing else don’t say anything at all. It is people like you that will stop someone for posting their own experience online for other people to learn, this after all is the reason behind discussion forums.
> I am merely trying to give information so people can make an informed decision, definitely more useful than your many posts about nothing more than a recommended phone manner.





How could you think this isn't a scam after reading all this post. You are either an employee or not too bright!!


----------



## professor_frink (19 May 2010)

Just thought I'd jump in here before things go a little too far and we have to close this thread.

Please choose you words very carefully when making a comment about this, or any other company. Stick to actual experiences with the company and their products, try and be polite to the other posters, and the thread will be left open for further comments.

Another One1, check your PM box.

Cheers


----------



## professor_frink (19 May 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> Hi All, my experience so far....
> 
> I was offered the $5800 package + minimum $1000 betting account and the promise to pay the remainder ($3000) or not pay this if the account had not made at least a $10,000 profit in 6 months.
> 
> ...




Hi SPOT1,

Wouldn't the fact that an employee of commercial securities showed up trying to pose as a satisfied customer say quite a bit about the way that these guys run their business?

IMO that would be more than enough information to make a decision about this company.

Also, having been involved in trading futures and options for a little while now, monitoring the picks these guys deliver over the course of a week isn't anywhere near enough of a sample size to make an informed decision either way. Would you also outlay thousands of dollars for a stock picking strategy based on a week's worth of data? Seems a little pointless to do this IMHO

You would be much better off getting a hold of a few year's worth of results that have been independently audited to make a more informed decision.


----------



## SPOT1 (19 May 2010)

professor_frink said:


> Hi SPOT1,
> 
> Wouldn't the fact that an employee of commercial securities showed up trying to pose as a satisfied customer say quite a bit about the way that these guys run their business?
> 
> ...




Thanks for the reply, to be honest I agree with the thread and the comments posted by the majority of people on here, what I am trying to do is to provide maximum information for other people in the future. My goal was to post the recommendations I receive for the next few days so they can be audited by the others if they chose. 

I also agree that the facts point to this being a bad investment. Posing as a customer when posting, the inconsistent stories I have heard on the phone and have read on this forum about the methods used to pick the horses.

If I added weight to the positive in this argument it was not my intention, merely trying to add my perspective for others to learn from. 
Trading commodities and stock index's is why I usually monitor the ASF so I agree entirely about the necessity of back testing a system to prove it's merit, hindsight can become foresight.

With this system the reliability of the data is in question so cannot think of any way to achieve this, having a weeks’ worth of data is not enough I agree but at least something to look at in the future when they publish the month to month profit/loss statements to see if they at least match what was given.

I think though my intentions have been confused and happy to just step out of this and leave as is and hope people use this forum as valuable information. The 2 replies that I had previously received that have since been removed from the forum have been less than encouraging.


----------



## just looking (19 May 2010)

Well Spot1 I'd be interested to hear of your onward experiences, and say Ni! to the people that had a go at you... I didn't really see anything positive at all in what you said so I can't see what they were going on about.

Obviously I'm not going to invest, but the fact that the company seems to think this thread is a group therapy session for their ex-employees is a bit pathetic really.


----------



## drsmith (19 May 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> Thanks for the reply, to be honest I agree with the thread and the comments posted by the majority of people on here.......
> I also agree that the facts point to this being a bad investment.



Bad as it is , it's not an investment. Betting on a horse is gambling.

If you agree with comments posted by the overwhelming majority of people in this thread and inparticular professor_frink (below), then why do you consider it worthy of further analysis ?

That does not strike me as being particularly smart. 



professor_frink said:


> Wouldn't the fact that an employee of commercial securities showed up trying to pose as a satisfied customer say quite a bit about the way that these guys run their business?
> 
> IMO *that would be more than enough information to make a decision about this company*.


----------



## Nickb (20 May 2010)

Has anyone successfully been able to cancel and get a full refund from commercial securities if so how did you do it also do you think I should find some legal advice on canceling the contract and see just where I stand and what I can do to walk away from this mess


----------



## Sonni (21 May 2010)

Another One1 said:


> Has anyone heard of Commercial Securities? They are trying to sell me a program which they say profits 50k per year on betting on horses!!!




Please Please Please DO NOT buy into this scam!!!  I have wasted $10,000 because I was sucked in by it!  These people use various methods to persuade you dont get sucked in like me!


----------



## Sonni (21 May 2010)

When I was first approached by these people I searched the web for forum etc. but there was nothing.  I foolishly fell prey to the promises, the salesman was very persuasive.  For example I was told by a salesman that the Victorian bush fire victims were investing in this so that they could rebuild their lives.  He said he loved his job because he was selling something that was benefiting average Australians.  I was also told about Kerry Packer.  I was so gullible, please don't waste your hard earnt money like I have!


----------



## just looking (21 May 2010)

Wow I don't know how these people sleep at night, running around acting in such an immoral fashion.

The worst thing is that reporting them to the NSW Fair Trade office just gets you a referral to a website on avoiding gambling investments. Would be nice if they pulled their finger out and scared the Commercial Securities bunch a little bit.


----------



## SPOT1 (21 May 2010)

Sonni and NickB are you both seeing the same as other people on the forum where they are constantly loosing money or just the money has vanished entirely. Also have you tried withdrawing the money to what result (assuming the money is still there)? Just interested in what you have found on this for the others on the forum to benefit from ? 

NickB I also think that you have no recourse on the "Membership Fee" you have paid as the contracts states

_I understand once this agreement has been signed my allocated membership cannot be refunded or cancelled._
Also it states that the follow in terms of the other money that they are still using to place bets...(this is extracted from the Terms and Conditions of the contract they sent me)

_2. You control all account funds through the use of a personalized numbered account
6. All funds in your trading account are available to you at all times via the phone or internet_

Also as promised I did receive the horses that were picked for both Wednesday and Thurdsay, 6 runners were selected and so far only 1 has won, that was an odds on favourite. So regardless even if it was legit it doesn't look like they are very good at it anyway!

Also Just Looking I agree. Having dealt with various government departments in the past something needs to be done as they are not very effective.


----------



## Sonni (21 May 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> Sonni and NickB are you both seeing the same as other people on the forum where they are constantly loosing money or just the money has vanished entirely. Also have you tried withdrawing the money to what result (assuming the money is still there)? Just interested in what you have found on this for the others on the forum to benefit from ?
> 
> NickB I also think that you have no recourse on the "Membership Fee" you have paid as the contracts states
> 
> ...




I signed up at the beginning of this year and each month has seen a loss.  I started with $1000 in my account and it is now down to approx. $300.  We rang alarmed at the loss in February and we were told that in the past this was always a bad time but we would definantly see our money doubled in the next few months and of course we are still loosing money.  I haven't tried to withdraw the money because I was hoping that I may get some back, wishful thinking I know!  I have also been reluctant to withdraw it because when that money is withdrawn the licence I paid $8800 for is worthless, which of course it is now!  Whenever I ring to speak to someone I can't get past the young receptionist who always asks for my name, she then goes to check if he is available and when she comes back I am given a variety of excuses as to why Warren Dunn or Customer Service is unavailable some of these are meetings, on a phone call, lunch........


----------



## drsmith (21 May 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> _2. You control all account funds through the use of a personalized numbered account
> 6. All funds in your trading account are available to you at all times via the phone or internet_



Anyone who has funds left in an account should withdraw it immediately. 

If "by internet" fails, then by phone. Don't take no for an answer. First in, best dressed I would suggest.

I don't have the time to contribute further to this, so from this point forward I am going to have to leave any further fools to the sharks. There's a wealth of information in this thread for any reasonable person to draw a conclusion on Commercial Securities and on the appropriate phone etiquette in relation to handling enquiries from them.


----------



## fishysdc (24 May 2010)

> I signed up at the beginning of this year and each month has seen a loss. I started with $1000 in my account and it is now down to approx. $300. We rang alarmed at the loss in February and we were told that in the past this was always a bad time but we would definantly see our money doubled in the next few months and of course we are still loosing money. I haven't tried to withdraw the money because I was hoping that I may get some back, wishful thinking I know! I have also been reluctant to withdraw it because when that money is withdrawn the licence I paid $8800 for is worthless, which of course it is now! Whenever I ring to speak to someone I can't get past the young receptionist who always asks for my name, she then goes to check if he is available and when she comes back I am given a variety of excuses as to why Warren Dunn or Customer Service is unavailable some of these are meetings, on a phone call, lunch........




My experience is exactly the same as Sonnie!....started with $1000 in Over The Odds account and now have around $300 left! the very licence that I was assured would grow my $1000 to around $60000 a year has dwindled my money to $300, rendering the $8800 dollar licence (3 years) useless unless I top up my account!  Customer service are never available (at home, at lunch, on a call) when I did get hold of them they indicated my issue was with the legal department! 

Yes I was naive...but there must be something that can be done....?


----------



## Richardhead (24 May 2010)

Anybody looking to claim their money are advised to print their over the odds statements and print commercial securities advertising statements and compare. As commercial securities bet on the same horses for every client there statements should be identical, if they are not than this is fraud which is a police matter. I will be getting legal advice. I hope everyone else who has been ripped off joins me in making these people pay.


----------



## PVK (25 May 2010)

Just wondering how Spot1 ( I think it is ) is recieving this amazing information on the horses that are running the day before etc. Wonderful of them. When I asked they said they make the final decision with only minutes to the jump so it would be impossible to give me that information in advance. The program and assessements of the variables such as weather etc make it all too hard to let me know. So how come you have been given such great treatment?


----------



## SPOT1 (27 May 2010)

PVK said:


> Just wondering how Spot1 ( I think it is ) is recieving this amazing information on the horses that are running the day before etc. Wonderful of them. When I asked they said they make the final decision with only minutes to the jump so it would be impossible to give me that information in advance. The program and assessements of the variables such as weather etc make it all too hard to let me know. So how come you have been given such great treatment?





Hi PVK,
I simply asked for it. 
When I received a call from someone at Commercial Securities I said I was very concerned this was not legit and even told them about this forum. 
I then said the only way I would further take this seriously was to get the picks in advance (he could only give me them in the morning of the days racing) I too got the story that the "final decision with only minutes to the jump etc" but insisted based on the other conversations that they must have a short list and even if they decided not to back a horse at last minute the short list would do.
I was expected to get these for 1 week and did recieve them for 2 days only. Of these horses 1 won out of 6 and I havent had any communication from them since. I can only assume they monitor this forum and have decided not to continue communication with me.


----------



## alz (27 May 2010)

Hi,

Has anyone thought of joining a class action against these people? In my contract they stipulate that bets will be placed in increments of 5% only, they seem to be placing bet of various percentages ranging from 0.5% to 6%, so surely that's got to be a breach of contract.


----------



## jbm (28 May 2010)

I am another that has been ripped off to the tune of 10k. Surely we can sue the director and let authorities know, but I think it will take alot of us to band together for anything to be done. We probably need to do this before Commercial Securities shut up shop and change name. The director has been posted in this forum as: 

ZOEI CHARISSA , KEONG
Address: 8 SUNDOWN DRIVE
PARADISE POINT
QLD 4216
Born: 07 Jul 1983 - TOOWOOMBA , QLD
Appointed Date: 09 Jun 2009 

Anyone interested email me


----------



## just looking (28 May 2010)

jbm said:


> I am another that has been ripped off to the tune of 10k. Surely we can sue the director and let authorities know, but I think it will take alot of us to band together for anything to be done. We probably need to do this before Commercial Securities shut up shop and change name. The director has been posted in this forum as:
> 
> ZOEI CHARISSA , KEONG
> Address: 8 SUNDOWN DRIVE
> ...





If it makes you feel any better putting a name to a face, looks like this is the one you're after (assuming there aren't too many Zoei Keongs on the Gold Coast):

http://www.newsphotos.com.au/ImageDetail.asp?RefNum=88011423

Wonder if she has any idea what she is involved in and the pain it's caused...

Like I said, how do these people sleep at night? Good luck with the fight, another piece of ammunition could be that they are publishing false results on their website (seeing as they're claiming to have made a profit in 2010 but it sounds like losses are all people have experienced).

Try calling the Fair trade commission or ASIC. Emailing did no good for me but talking to someone might get you somewhere.


----------



## lostinspace (28 May 2010)

drsmith said:


> Yes. These parasites take advantage of people's natural instinct to gamble.
> 
> On the subject of cold-calling in general, it should be illegal where there's no ongoing business relationship between the two parties.
> 
> That would stop a lot of this crap.




This exercise has been good for me,I now know what cold calling is, -iwas suprised how little information I could find out about this co. Normally I am very short with these type of calls,I seemed to be woo-ed by this female voice(being male)possibly taking the option of the lesser amount $5800 for my licence,they are so helpfull-also at first not making it clear that I also need at least $1000 for them to bet with.As far as I can see,they cant loose.How can they guarantee a $10000 or more, profit in 6 months.Before I bumped the cash into their account I thought I would run it by a good friend,and when i was explaining to him,it sounded like a joke,guess I don,t have the same woo-ing powers on him,but when I heard myself it really did sound unbelievable.Thank you drsmith for being frank about it ,don,t engage in  conversation with them,you may take the bait,waste your good time and waste a lot of money.So glad I found this forum and people like me.


----------



## Nickb (1 June 2010)

Has anyone else been having trouble trying to get advice or get someone to help try and work out a way to get out of these contracts and get a refund of your money I can't get anyone to give me the right advice and when I ring commercial securities they say the legal department have to call you back and guess what they never do all I want to do is get out and get my money back from them as there system that they promise you makes all this money doesn't and why isn't that enough to be able to get out when they say that you will make 50k a year then can't even make a $1 profit per month surely someone out there can work out a way to be able to get us out of this mess


----------



## poverty (2 June 2010)

Awesome thread, the stupidity of anyone 'investing' in this is just incredible.  As for anyone getting their money back, do you really think they are even placing actual bets?  Surely they realise by now their system (if it even exists) is not a winner.  

Much better they don't even place a single bet and simply just pocket your 'gambling account' along with the rest of it.  Then just post up selected results that will show how it was slowly whittled away!

One thing for sure I bet these guys will make much better use of the money than the fools who gave it to them.  Perhaps they'll look into some shares or ETFs LOL.


----------



## just looking (3 June 2010)

poverty said:


> One thing for sure I bet these guys will make much better use of the money than the fools who gave it to them.  Perhaps they'll look into some shares or ETFs LOL.




Wow what a nice guy. I guess you must've never made a mistake in your life then, kudos to you Mr Infallible.

As the saying goes "If you don't have anything nice (constructive etc) to say....."


----------



## zanne40 (8 June 2010)

Wow! This scam is bigger than I thought. I don't feel so alone now. I don't usually get caught by scams, but here I am, $18,800 out of pocket. The concept seemed quite plausable, but they couldn't win a chook raffle. I often wonder if they aren't connected to the bookie they use. Just trickle the money away, so as not to be too blatant.
I guess now I'll just put it down to life experience. Just rang the bookie to put a block on whats left, so I can give it to the grandkids. $1800 out of $18,800. Everyones made money except me.


----------



## Woogle (8 June 2010)

If they have told you that you will make alot of money and their success rate is backing winners is a lot higher than it actually is this would be a misleading and deceptive conduct.  that is a breach of the trade practices act.  Directors of companies are personally liable for these breaches also.  Everyone who invested should report this to the ACCC, the more complaints the better, then the ACCC will take it seriously.  Also, get a good lawyer.


----------



## just looking (8 June 2010)

Woogle said:


> If they have told you that you will make alot of money and their success rate is backing winners is a lot higher than it actually is this would be a misleading and deceptive conduct.  that is a breach of the trade practices act.  Directors of companies are personally liable for these breaches also.  Everyone who invested should report this to the ACCC, the more complaints the better, then the ACCC will take it seriously.  Also, get a good lawyer.




Exactly. They are publishing monthly results on their webpage that appear to be a complete lie if any of the experiences posted here are anything to go by. 
Surely that is illegal, and can be used to take them to court. Stop looking at these forums and present your case to a lawyer or call the ACCC, Fair Trading Commission etc. Shouldn't cost anything to just talk to a lawyer at least and see where you might stand.

Believe it or not, even Today Tonight or A Current Affair might be worth talking to, I know you can just email the networks with your story and they'll follow it up with you. Seems like something right up their alley.

I feel really sorry for these people that have been conned... I can't imagine what I would do if we lost that amount of money.

It would be useful if anyone that does make any enquiries to lawyers etc posted the results of their efforts here, to guide others.


----------



## zanne40 (8 June 2010)

Just in addition to my earlier post.
I rang "Over the Odds", the bookie and put a block on my account.
Now they can't access it to bet.
Not much left, but don't want them to get thier grubby hands on it.

I also sent links to their web page and also this forum, to "A Current Affair"
Hopefully, they will find a story in it and warn off others.
Don't think Commercial Securities, will welcome any publicity.
THIS SCAM NEEDS TO BE PUBLICISED.


----------



## Woogle (8 June 2010)

did you notice Michael featherstone is an ex director?  do a google search on him.  not just australia.  there is a scam.com thread on him and crikey did a story on him being shonky.  apaprently he is an ex cop and was put before the carter enquiry.  they only looked at cops with history of causing trouble through fraud.  we shoudl all go to ACCC with our stories they will definitely look into it.


----------



## just looking (10 June 2010)

Probably worth sending the story to Today Tonight as well, I think A Current Affair likes to think they're a more 'highbrow' show, while Today Tonight will chase anything up, or at least make initial enquiries with you.

Following that, they themselves might even go to the ACCC and have a bit more luck than you guys.


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> Hi PVK,
> I can only assume they monitor this forum and have decided not to continue communication with me.



That being the case it puts you in a much more fortunate position than many others who have had contact from Commercial Securities.



SPOT1 said:


> When I received a call from someone at Commercial Securities I said I was very concerned this was not legit and even told them about this forum.



They allready knew about the forum.

I would still like to know why you considered it worthy of consideration given the underlying stench.



zanne40 said:


> Just in addition to my earlier post.
> I rang "Over the Odds", the bookie and put a block on my account.
> Now they can't access it to bet.
> Not much left, but don't want them to get thier grubby hands on it.



Having done that you should withdraw it. It's not safe until it's back in your bank account.



zanne40 said:


> I also sent links to their web page and also this forum, to "A Current Affair"
> Hopefully, they will find a story in it and warn off others.
> Don't think Commercial Securities, will welcome any publicity.
> THIS SCAM NEEDS TO BE PUBLICISED.



Victims of this should write to their local minister and include general discontent on the practice of cold calling.

The sooner it is banned, the better.


----------



## SPOT1 (10 June 2010)

drsmith said:


> That being the case it puts you in a much more fortunate position than many others who have had contact from Commercial Securities.



Yes it does, I have not had a single call back from them 



drsmith said:


> They allready knew about the forum.
> 
> I would still like to know why you considered it worthy of consideration given the underlying stench.



Because the entire time I was wanting to get as much information for everyone else to use now and in the future, my comments on the forum were guarded due to the fact that I assumed they were monitoring this forum. Never at any time did I disagree with you DrSmith, just trying to extract as much useful information as possible for the benefits of others.



drsmith said:


> The sooner it is banned, the better.



Agreed !!!!!


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2010)

SPOT1 said:


> Because the entire time I was wanting to get as much information for everyone else to use now and in the future, my comments on the forum were guarded due to the fact that I assumed they were monitoring this forum.



No need to be guarded. It's a free country. It was known they were monitoring the thread from page 1. 

The necessary information to pass judgement was allready in the thread. Analysis of specifics therefore not required as you have found. 



SPOT1 said:


> Never at any time did I disagree with you DrSmith, just trying to extract as much useful information as possible for the benefits of others.



In that case I'll assume you practiced your "hanging up technique" in case they rang back again.


----------



## just looking (10 June 2010)

Well well well well well....

This is quite an interesting page worth looking at:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/27/2610216.htm

It seems that the ABC has been looking into this scam. And in fact, the scam is under investigation, or an identical one is.

Some snippets:

"Recently I received a call from a Brisbane-based company claiming past returns of between 26 and 95 per cent a month on its horse racing scheme.

I cannot name it, because it may be one of the organisations currently under investigation, but I was only too happy to hear their spiel so I could share it with ABC News Online readers.

In return for having this company manage a gambling account using their computer system, I was asked for an $8,800 dollar sign-up fee, and between $1,000 and $10,000 in capital to start the gambling account.

In their sales pitch, the company claimed its software system was developed by a former employee of Kerry Packer, who their salesman said used to help Mr Packer with his horse racing picks...." etc etc

Down the bottom there is an email address of the reporter investigating, and he is keen to talk to people about their experience.


----------



## Facts (11 June 2010)

Commercial Securities and Gateway Technologies are the same entity. There was a name change in October 2009 but all else the same except for change of Managing Director (see below). Most lower level sales employees use an alias and they are are not fully aware of the company's operations. Commercial Securities operates on "silos" of information and does its best to restrict communications between the various stakeholders e.g. employees are not allowed to take up a "licence" for spurious, if plausible reasons, otherwise they would know the real results. Clients are losing 30 of capital per month, not making $5000 a month on a pool investment of $10,000.

Gateway Technologies has over 50 complaints listed with ACCC . It previously sold betting software on CD before moving to selling betting services.

Commercial Securities does not trade in listed or unlisted securities: the company name is misleading however regulation of the company does not come under ASIC's jurisdiction - although it allowed the company to trade under this misleading company name.  

Commercial Securities method of operation is to publish historical Australian Group A horse-racing results which are contrived to indicate a return of around $60,000 p.a. This theoretically brings returns under the tax threshold (around $70,000) and avoids review by the Tax Office. This threshold is used as a ploy by the company to explain why it provides its betting information to outside parties.

Actual bets are on different horses to those belatedly published. The historical results are provided by Commercial Securities as an example of what could occur had they bet on those horses. It is a subtle but significant difference, and not a distinction drawn by the sales staff, most of whom do not realise there is a difference. The company leads sales staff to believe what they pass on to their prospects is actual results: this is not so.

Cost of the betting service is $8,800 inc. GST (plus 10% of earnings after the first $10,000 returned) for two years service; and clients are solicited over the phone from lists provided by Dunn and Bradstreet and others (e.g. new mobile phone numbers): and Commercial Securities especially target tradespeople and others who may deal in "black money". This is because these people are not likely to report a loss or complain about fraudulent activity. 

Payment by credit card is encouraged however only for the $8.800 so-called "trading licence" as many credit card companies (eg AMEX, CitiBank) will not deal with gambling companies for fear of claims of unconscionable conduct. This legislation is strong in the USA following their "no/low-docs" mortgage debacle, and it will become stronger in Australia. The Bill has been debated.

The two year "licence" is invoiced by Commercial Securities as "management services" or as "business software" so that the $8,800 can be claimed by those with an ABN as a tax deduction. Clients are encouraged to place a further $10,000 of funds into the "trading account" with the bookmaker, Over The Odds (part of EzyBet) and these funds are accessed by Commercial Securities for gambling purposes. Clients are asked to deposit this amount 
($1,000 to $10,000) on-line by direct deposit to avoid problems with the credit card companies. 

According to ASIC, Commercial Securities is based in Queensland (Brisbane telemarketing office) Level 21, 300 Queen Street, Brisbane, and director is Zoei Charissa,, Keong of 8 Sundown Drive, Paradise Point, Qld 4216, born: 07 Jul 1983 - Toowoomba,Qld: Appointed Date: 09 Jun 2009. The company has no "trading rooms"in any State and may have moved office since this this address was posted.

The company's Sydney address (Crows Nest) is listed as its head office but this is a  "virtual office" run by a serviced office provider called "Silent Partner". There is no personal representation by Commercial Securities in Sydney and this office is essentially used for receipt/transfer of mail. 

The company also had a telemarketing office in Melbourne until May 2010 and it still has a presence (see below). The Melbourne office was at unit 3/426 Burwood Highway, Wantirna South, VIC 3152 Phone (03) 9008 6932. 

Melbourne manager, Quinten Hann, who has an investment in the company, in mid-May 2010 moved office to Unit 505 in the Knox Centre (tower), Professional Office Suite, Level 5/425 Burwood Highway, Cnr. Stud Road and Burwood Highway, and his company name is Queenbury Pty Ltd. It is on the ASIC National Names index.

 Mr Hann also runs another business (dog breeding - French mastiff, also called "dogue de Bordeaux") from 29 One Tree Hill Road, Ferny Creek, Victoria, It can be viewed on Google maps (satellite) large residence with pool, substantial grounds, on southern slope: and he is also a property developer in the Dandenongs region (Vic.). 

Mr Hann's mobile phone number is available on-line from his dog trading activities: it is 0419666 147.

Further public information on the infamous Quinten Hann type his full name into Google, Wikipaedia, or You Tube.

Hann's unrefuted published history includes unusually aggressive and threatening behaviour, match-fixing exposed by the media in England, an 8 year-ban from playing professional snooker for bringing the sport into disrepute, and sexual assault charges. He is also closely connected with the shadowey Principals of Commercial Securities.

If you wish to make complaints against Commercial Securities contact the ACCC not ASIC. This is because Commercial Securities offers a gambling product and not an investment product so the company does not come under ASIC's jurisdiction. You may also effectively complain to the the Consumer Affairs/Office of Fair Trading regulator in your State. 

As of I July 2010, ASIC will undertake class actions against organisations such as Commercial Securities on your behalf. Register with the ACCC to take advantage of this service.

And if you were invited to contact an "independent referee", often called by the alias "Marie", then this person was a paid "stooge". This is blatant fraud and should be reported to the police in your State. 

To encourage prospects to purchase a "trading licence"  sales staff have also been encouraged to offer shares in the company in the future. They do not have an IPO (see Wikipaedia for definition) and so should not be making these offers. Sales staff have also been encouraged to ask prospects to take out loans or use credit card funds to fund this gambling activity. This can be construed as unconscionable conduct, an illegal activity.

Hope the above info. is useful to the "burnt". However Commercial Securities will probably disappear to soon re-appear elsewhere. The Principals operate by setting-up people like Hann and Keong to take the "fall". Maybe one-day we will have regulators who will trace the source and extinguish it. 

But things are improving - as of July, ACCC will undertake class actions!


----------



## Nickb (11 June 2010)

I have just recently reported them to the accc which told me to speak with the department of fair trading which is what my lawyer also told me to because I am trying to find ways inwhich to get my money back and the amount is under $10000 so anything else is more expensive than what is to be recovered now the department of fair trading rang today and said they had spoken with commercial securities and they are not going to budge or make a deal or do anything so now that want me to take my case to the consumer, trader and tenancy tribunal the only thing is I don't think I can go there and win I think I am going to give up obviosly they have been at this alot longer and have there bases covered to the point that we only have bits and pieces to work with if anyone thinks I might be able to win I am interested in you opinon but this is it they have won and I am just going to have to give and to everyone else remember stay away from these people they are bad news from the second they ring you


----------



## Facts (16 June 2010)

Two minor corrections to immediate previous Facts post. 

First paragraph last sentence should read 30% not 30.

In paragraph 12, Hann's Victoria office address is Suite 504, not 505 as stated.

Also:

Employees/ex-employees

We believe Commercial Securities are currently under a "full investigation" by Fair Work Australia (FWA) and the company is doing their best to avoid an audit/investigation. 

Employees and ex-employees, all of whom are, or have been working on "sham" contracts as "sub-contractors" (these contracts are/were imposed by Commercial Securities), can contact Fair Work Australia on-line and claim their entitlements (e.g. superannuation). If you were unfairly, summarily dismissed, and apparently these unfair dismissals are/were common, make your claim immediately as there is a time limit although exceptions are given if an acceptable reason is provided. 

Do not be "bluffed" by any post, or any action taken by Commercial Securities, into not taking action. Bluffing, bullying, lies and veiled threats are their forte. They are cunning but their greed and unethical practices will eventually bring them down. Do your "bit " to speed this process and, if you feel threatened, contact police in your State.


----------



## just looking (17 June 2010)

Have a look at their website and you’ll also all notice that they have removed their ‘Monthly Results’ section which allowed a pdf download of results for the last 6 months or so (and which were obviously fabricated).

I hope that some of you investors were wise enough to 
a) take some screenshots of the false information provided on the website and 
b) download and keep copies of the pdf files with the false information? A good set of data for building a case against them.


----------



## zanne40 (18 June 2010)

Hi all,
I previously sent information to "A Current Affair" re these lowlife.
As suggested by DrSmith, I just sent the same info to "Today Tonight".
If a few more of you also do the same, we may get a story.
We may not get our money back, but we can save others from their clutches.

Anyone that still has funds not yet lost.
Ring the bookie and put a block on the account.
Then download the withdrawall form.
Copy your licence or passport and get it signed by a JP, then fax it to them.

I'm still not convinced that the Bookie is not tied up in this in some way.

They may have covered themselves legally, but they need shutting down.
We need to publicise it, to jerk the authorities into action.
They don't usually do much, untill it hits the media.


----------



## Josh Josh (19 June 2010)

Hi all, I used money from profits in my stock market trading account to fund the $8800 and $10k betting account to get started at the start of May 2010. It is now 18th June and i have <$1k left in my betting acc. DO NOT TRUST THIS SYSTEM OR THE PEOPLE THAT SELL IT. This was obviously a HUGE mistake. Without counting the win/loss ratio, i  would estimate it to be around 5%. These people seem to be talented in picking losing horses as i could have done better reading the form guides and betting myself!!
I have learned from my mistake and realy wish i had have read this Forum prior to signing up. DONT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE. $17k in 7 weeks is what i have lost as the 3 year Licence is not worth a thing.


----------



## Facts (20 June 2010)

For those chasing money from Melbourne, we have been advised that the initial Melbourne manager of Gateway Technologies, that became Commercial  Securities in October 2009, was Ms. Amanada Hann of Beldingford Manor, Cnr Laubes Road and One Tree Hill Road, Ferny Creek, a gated property in the Dandenongs (Victoria). Mobile: 0488788479


----------



## sportpunter (21 June 2010)

just looking said:


> Have a look at their website and you’ll also all notice that they have removed their ‘Monthly Results’ section which allowed a pdf download of results for the last 6 months or so (and which were obviously fabricated).
> 
> I hope that some of you investors were wise enough to
> a) take some screenshots of the false information provided on the website and
> b) download and keep copies of the pdf files with the false information? A good set of data for building a case against them.





I believe I do have the old pdf, I shall look for it and post it. What I found interesting, is that all the odds that they quote were NSW TAB odds. This si particularly interesting because they bet at OvertheOdds which gives thebest of 3 tabs. So it is quite clear that none of the bets that were listed were actually made.

Simply they got the TAB NSW odds and pretended that they had bet them.

Interestingly also, I recieved a cold call today bfrom a horse racing betting firm in melbourne. They are going to send me out a pamflet and then call me back in a few days time regarding it. My guess is that it is the same group under a different name. I will be sure to post all the dodge scam info here as soon as I get it so that others dont get caught.


----------



## Nevyn (22 June 2010)

Thank you for the advice contained within this forum.  I myself received a cold call a couple of weeks ago from Queenbury Investments.  From the posts here the approach offered by QI sounds exactly like the others listed here.  Even got myself a lovely, very well done brochure showing how I could make around $74,000 over 10 months from a $10,000 investment.  I must admit that I foolishly thought this could have been a genuine offer but after talking it over with a friend came to the conclusion that it seemed to good to be true, and thus thought it wise to do a bit of research first.

I even received a phone call from the manager yesterday to confirm my interest.  When I told him I could not afford the $10,000 he told me I could start for as little as $1,000.  I told him that I would need a few weeks to get that together.  He then told me that for them to manage this for three years there would be a fee of $9.400.  There was no mention of this in the brochure.  Told him I wouldn't be able to come up with this sort of money that quickly.  He told me they were going public and there were only some 200 places available.  When I said I would have to decline he said he could do me a deal and get me in for $5,500 and said that with tax time coming up it would be a good time for me to consider investing my refund.

So after a lot of searching the web and not finding much in the way of helpful stuff one way or the other I found this site.  I checked Queenbury Investments out on ASIC and while I could find their name I couldn't find a record of their acn number.  I finally managed to locate them and their acn number and the amusing thing is that their brochure, for all it's professional look is missing a number in their acn.

Anyway thank you to all the people who have posted on here regarding this horse betting scheme.  Thank you for saving me my money.


----------



## just looking (22 June 2010)

Nice post Nevyn, and well picked up.
How lazy, the Queenbury Investments website is almost identical to the Commercial Securities one. Pathetic aren't they.

So now for anyone googling Queenbury Investments...

*Queenbury Investments is a scam, and Queenbury Investments is the same body as Commercial Securities who are proven scammers. Queenbury Investments are running the same scam based on horse racing or the thoroughbred industry.*

Steer clear of the buggers.


----------



## professor_frink (22 June 2010)

just looking said:


> Nice post Nevyn, and well picked up.
> How lazy, the Queenbury Investments website is almost identical to the Commercial Securities one. Pathetic aren't they.
> 
> So now for anyone googling Queenbury Investments...
> ...




Hang on a minute

They are Commercial securities? Is there any proof of this?

Whilst I can see the similarities in the way the websites are laid out and sorts of claims made, that doesn't make them a definite scam, or the same company on it's own.


----------



## just looking (22 June 2010)

No I guess there isn't any proof but

a) Before this forum discussion there was no proof that Commercial Securities is a scam (and may still not be, all there are here are people's posts, which could be based on real or fake experiences). This forum thread is still the only other significant Google hit other than the Commercial Securities website - and now that is true for Queenbury Investments. So it is a useful starting point for people to head to after getting a cold call from Queenbury.

b) The similarities between the websites, sales pitch, investment method, and pricing are all too great for Queenbury Investments to not be considered as equal a scam as commercial securities. Ie. they are almost identical.


Perhaps I should have prefaced my cautionary statement with "In my opinion..."


----------



## shiftyphil (22 June 2010)

professor_frink said:


> Whilst I can see the similarities in the way the websites are laid out and sorts of claims made, that doesn't make them a definite scam,



They are a definite scam.

Water is wet, the sky is blue, and horse racing "investments" are scams.



> or the same company on it's own.




Same MO, same people.


----------



## Joe Blow (22 June 2010)

Those participating in this thread should only post:


Details of their own personal experiences with Commercial Securities, or;
Statements of fact that can be demonstrated to be true.

I don't want to see other companies or individuals dragged into this thread and accused of wrongdoing unless it can be supported by factual information.


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2010)

If Queenbury Investments rang me, they would promptly find themselves on the receiving end of my "well practiced" hanging up technique.


----------



## freddy2 (22 June 2010)

My first questions would be: Why are you selling me $150K over 3 years for only $10K? Shouldn't you keep the "secret" to yourself and make much more money?


----------



## shiftyphil (22 June 2010)

drsmith said:


> If Queenbury Investments rang me, they would promptly find themselves on the receiving end of my "well practiced" hanging up technique.




I hope your technique involves a good blast from an air horn first.


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2010)

shiftyphil said:


> I hope your technique involves a good blast from an air horn first.



Not quiet, but the short retort as outlined on post 28 of this thread promptly followed by the firm placement of the handset on the receiver should achieve the desired objective.


----------



## zanne40 (26 June 2010)

Hi again guys,
I managed to get $1500 back from the bookie. After my 1st phone call to them, they got a further 300. The lying operator denied that I had rung and blocked the account. Also denied that they got my withdrawal fax. I emailed it and refaxed it and warned them against taking any more. After some heated emails, I got the account closed and the little money left, back into my bank.
The bookie was being difficult and they have reinforced my belief, that they are a part of this scam. I told them so and they vigorously denied it.
Why would a scammer, deliberately lose our money to someone else. That doesn't make any sense. There's millions involved, so they ain't going to give it all to the bookie. The bookie checks out as legit, if not honest, but something smells real bad. CS has to be getting a percentage.
Looking at their betting summary, one would get the impression, that they are compiled after the races. No one can lose that consistantly. Noting that they throw in the odd win, then cancel it out with further loses.
Anyone that has money left with the bookie, grab it before they whittle it all away. 
Make sure to get the operator, to email that it is blocked. I never did that and got burnt.
When you send the withdrawal papers, email and fax them. Ask them to email you that they have received them. This whole process, seems to be a stalling process.
If you don't have the money in your bank after 3 days, hassle them.
Be warned. As long as they have access to the account, its going to get smaller not bigger.


----------



## missmj (27 June 2010)

This sounds like a conspiracy between many different companies i wonder how big it really is?

Thankyou Gary for the information you provided im glad i saved it before it was pulled. As my husband and i signed up with commercial, please message us here as we would like to know more about the real people behind this scam. Especially where their business is operated from, im sure the boss knows we know where he lives and will be getting a few sleepless nights from now on.


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2010)

missmj said:


> This sounds like a conspiracy between many different companies i wonder how big it really is?
> 
> Thankyou Gary for the information you provided im glad i saved it before it was pulled.



I saw a post too that has since been removed. Perhaps the accusations therein were considered to be based too much on speculation with insufficient supporting facts. 



missmj said:


> As my husband and i signed up with commercial, please message us here as we would like to know more about the real people behind this scam.............



Your anger is understandable, but thinly veiled threats to someone's well being that are potentially outside the law are not the answer.

All who have suffered loss should make a joint effort through writing letters to their elected representatives with the aim of having cold calling laws tightened. As I have said earlier in this thread, that would stop a lot of this crap.

Do you have any remaining trading funds with Commercial Securities ?


----------



## missmj (28 June 2010)

We have about 30% last time i looked it is hard to imagine that any profesionals could lose so much so quick. so many bets placed and it is hard to understand any method to the results.

there is another company called sportpunter who sells similar packages based on sports is this a scam as well? any feedback would be good maybe we can pull out our money and try another company as there is not a whole lot left they cant do any worse thats for sure.

Drsmith there was nothing thinly veiled about what we meant! we now know his home address hedges ave, he is obviously doing quite well for himself. Wait and see how he is doing in another few months time, i am sure someone will do something about him too many angry people


----------



## Another One1 (29 June 2010)

Hi missmj  can you give us some more info on this guy. How do you know his home address? Any info would be good thanks


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2010)

missmj said:


> Drsmith there was nothing thinly veiled about what we meant! we now know his home address hedges ave, he is obviously doing quite well for himself. Wait and see how he is doing in another few months time, i am sure someone will do something about him too many angry people



Those running Commercial Securities or similar don't give a rat's backside about what foolish subscribers to these kind of schemes think.

As for their private dwellings, it's a fair bet they have security commensurate with their business activities.



missmj said:


> We have about 30% last time i looked it is hard to imagine that any profesionals could lose so much so quick. so many bets placed and it is hard to understand any method to the results.



While you are scratching your head over that, take immediate action to withdraw the rest before that is lost too.



missmj said:


> there is another company called sportpunter who sells similar packages based on sports is this a scam as well? any feedback would be good maybe we can pull out our money and try another company as there is not a whole lot left they cant do any worse thats for sure.



http://www.gansw.org.au/


----------



## Another One1 (12 July 2010)

Looks like they have done a runner, website is down and no answer on their phone. Is anyone else having any luck?


----------



## Nickb (12 July 2010)

I have notice that the website has been down for about a week now I thought that is what that might have done but what is interesting is I left $20 in the account after I emptied it and they still seem to be putting bets on


----------



## zanne40 (13 July 2010)

They are back again!

"comsec trading [comsectrading@gmail.com]"

"Monday 12th July 2010

Dear Valued Member,


Firstly we would like to welcome you and introduce ourselves to you. We are your new Trading Team, we officially took over trading on the 21st June 2010, and decided to buy the company on the 1st July 2010. 

It has taken a while to get you all set up in our new data base as we are very customer service based. It is at this time i would like to educate you on our way of trading, as we target approx 10-20% return per month. We are the best in the business at our job of punting, and we have a great team with over 60 combined years trading experience in the Industry."

They waffle on about how its all changed and they're going to make you rich.
Same old BS.

I think things may have been getting a bit hot so they're trying another tact.
They ain't even got a real email address. Hiding behind Gmail.

Anyway, I told them where to go with their BS


----------



## missmj (27 July 2010)

Another One1 said:


> Hi missmj  can you give us some more info on this guy. How do you know his home address? Any info would be good thanks




i have been told by moderator to not divulge those details here. its a small world a friend of a friend signed up a few months ago with sure track technologies or red underline pty ltd. the same speil that we got he has lost his money every month too. he does not have internet but i am going to help him set up an account here to post his story. its funny gateway technology solutions which was a scam just google it and now sure track technologies they dont have much imagination do they


----------



## missmj (27 July 2010)

missmj said:


> i have been told by moderator to not divulge those details here. its a small world a friend of a friend signed up a few months ago with sure track technologies or red underline pty ltd. the same speil that we got he has lost his money every month too. he does not have internet but i am going to help him set up an account here to post his story. its funny gateway technology solutions which was a scam just google it and now sure track technologies they dont have much imagination do they




there seems to be alot of these companies around he told me when they signed up they only bet 30 to 40 times a month he told me now he looks at his account they have more than 40 bets in a single day, which is different to what he was told when he bought into sure track technologies


----------



## bonfire0448 (30 July 2010)

Well I should have looked at all these posts before handing over my money.
Originall Commercial Securities wanted $8800 but i said no and they were happy to take $5000..
WELL GUESS WHAT there website is unavailable the boss's mobile is disconected BUT after screaming at there answereing service they rang me.
GUESS what they have nothing to do with the old company it is still called commercial securities but NEW owners have taken over.
I told her about everything i new, ABN registrations even that workers from there firm had posed as satisfied customers on THIS forum and had been banned from using it.
OH very sorry we have nothing do do with old company, even the employees are all NEW NONE of the old staff came over during the change over.
AFTER questioning this woman i said you do no what is going on dont you, then i said WHY would someone take over a company with such a bad reputation???????????I cant believe we were soooooo stupid ,lost our money, if there is a will there is a way, PLEASE if you have been caught by this company reply to my post as i am taking action. I dont care if it costs me another $5000, I NEED people who have also been caught.
One of the posts on here gives the dates this business was registered and said well i bet there gone by the same time this year (Unquoted) GUESS what mate you were spot on, only thing is the bastards have my money.

I AM GOING TO A CURRENT AFFAIR as they seem to have the power to investigate these things so please post back and i will get the ball rolling....THEY MUST BE STOPPED....


----------



## klm (31 July 2010)

I know a guy that worked for these bunch a crooks. They started as Gateway Technology Solutions then Commercial Securities and now the name has changed to Sure Track Technologies or Red Underline. The company is Red Underline but the trading name seems to be Sure Track Tecnologies. 

They have different websites so they can try and dodge forums like this.

redunderlinedcom.au and suretracktechnologiescom

They have some how got the major banks in their heading some how I don't think the banks would be to happy about this.

They are saying they have changed owners or what ever all they have done is started up a new company with a different director. They are still located at Level 6, 50 Cavill Ave, in Surfers Paradise. The guy who owns it is a guy called John Muir. He just keeps on paying people to sign as director and share holder so he can't be traced.

Apparently as of the 1st of July Fair Trading will handle class actions against these type of companies, so everyone who has bought programs go hard against the director and you may have some luck. Proving John Muir has any ownership of these companies is hard because he protects himself by using other people to take the fall.

On the Red Underline website they say they will get you invest in property options and Stock market trading this is just bull**** to get your hopes up to have a long standing relationship with the company. Don't be sucked in by this statement.

Look on the Asic website and you will see that they did 484 Change to Company Details. So when they tell you this question them.

They are probably already working on a new company when this one goes down, so be quick to act when you want money back.

If anyone whats more info email me at klm1981 at hotmail.com


----------



## klm (2 August 2010)

Sorry that email is klm1918 at live.com.au


----------



## Shane V (2 August 2010)

All these companies... Commercial, red underline, and Sure Track are scams- all of them a run by fraudsters.

Surely, you would have to be blind not to see that.


----------



## CDP (2 August 2010)

bonfire0448 said:


> Well I should have looked at all these posts before handing over my money.
> Originall Commercial Securities wanted $8800 but i said no and they were happy to take $5000..
> WELL GUESS WHAT there website is unavailable the boss's mobile is disconected BUT after screaming at there answereing service they rang me.
> GUESS what they have nothing to do with the old company it is still called commercial securities but NEW owners have taken over.
> ...




I too fell for this! Managed to get my money out of the trading account when it had halved.  This was no easy task in itself. We have tried talking to the ACCC but it seems these guys are out of their control.  Would be more than happy to be involved in any futher action.


----------



## little lukey (4 August 2010)

CDP said:


> I too fell for this! Managed to get my money out of the trading account when it had halved.  This was no easy task in itself. We have tried talking to the ACCC but it seems these guys are out of their control.  Would be more than happy to be involved in any futher action.




I too fell for this. I have $3.33 in the trading account, I also have copies of the website when it was showing the latest results which did not match my over the odds reports. Legal fees may prevent me from taking further action, I think this is what they play on. Happy to get involved.


----------



## Another One1 (4 August 2010)

Its pretty simple take the director Zoe Keong to the small claims court in your local area and get a Magistrate to decide. I am fairly sure they will see it in your favour. Her address is posted on this forum. Ring Fair trading as they will now help with class actions as well.


----------



## mexicanmaddog (9 August 2010)

Wow, I wish I had this info back in November when they did one on me.  Yes, I am one of the fools that signed up... $5800 and $1000 in the trading account.
I have lost Over the past 8 months they have not had one profitable month and I have all the proof of that.  I have record of my trading account every month and it is now at $1.27.  They do not respond to any emails and now for the latest.  I have copied the last email I received for Paul Elis, the new Director, if you can believe that???

Here goes (worth a read)

9th Aug 2010

New Trading platform is now ready to accept memberships for trading and we are excited about the opportunities it provides to existing Commercial Securities clients.


So what does all this mean to you and your investment? 


I have re-enlisted the knowledge and ability of my Head Trader and his team of analysts and traders as they are the best in the world with proven results. They have set up their new Racing and Sports Punters Club and I know that they can make you some money back on your investment.  I have seen their results first hand and I am sure you will see that if they weren’t pushed to turn over so much money and be as aggressive as they were when I first acquired Commercial Securities,  that 10% a month profit would have been easily achievable, as they bet WIN, PLACE  and even LAY horses (back to lose "be the bookie") and on not only Australian Racing but also UK racing and on all Global sports not just win like we did, but when targeting massive returns that were promised, you can only bet WIN.  Take a look at their strike rate; they had well over 50% Placed runners and normally at good odds.

Moving forward we have made the serious decision to go ahead with the commitment of my head trader and his team who has set up their own service after seeing the need for a product that delivered results and not promises.  They will be charging $5,000 to join plus GST AND WILL ALLOW NEW MEMBERS TO PAY THE $5,000 3 MONTHS AFTER JOINING WHEN THEY ARE HAPPY WITH THE SERVICE. THAT'S RIGHT NOTHING DOWN, JUST THE WAY IT SHOULD BE!  But as a special offer he has said he will waive the FULL membership fee for any previous Commercial Securities members THIS MEANS YOU NEVER HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR MEMBERSHIP and each person can have up to 2 memberships each.  They target 10% return monthly and charge fees of $99.95 only if they achieve a 5% net result for the month.  This is the best I can do, I have personally put everything I own on the line and need this to work just as much as all of you do and this was a personal favour to me for the head trader to accept these terms.

One of the big differences on the new trading platform is the traders bet smaller amounts and bet WIN, PLACE and even LAY horses (back horses to lose "be the bookie" they also bet daily in the UK and on Global sport and mainly only bet some Wed Sat and Public holidays in Oz) so they bet much more but they have opened up the door to us to be able to offer this.  They have a lot of people already waiting listed on their own database so for existing clients it is on a first come basis to secure your position.  Applications need to be in by next Friday 13th August and the accounts must then be funded by the 1st Sept for Septembers trading.  They do not allow anyone to come in mid month.  You can join but you will only start trading on the next calendar month. This way all accounts should be equal with no fluctuations to the live trading displayed with no excuses.  There are some heavy hitters requesting large chunks of this trading so if you are interested THERE ARE ONLY 2,000 ME
 MBERSHIPS AVAILABLE BUT IT IS FREE TO ALL MY MEMBERS AND THEY GET FIRST SHOT, BUT ONLY FOR AUGUST.  There are no set up costs 100% free to join ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS FUND YOUR TRADING ACCOUNT.  I want to see you recoup your investment.  Remember that I have not received $1 from previous sales of license fees.  This change has been employed as I needed a much safer and securer trading platform that is also a fairer way of trading for you, to minimise losses and make this an equitable investment for all involved.

This is the only way forward and the best option available.  Please email me to inform me of your interest and I will send out the necessary documentation including the new contract and the terms and conditions of the Racing and Sports Punters Club for your perusal and acceptance.  For those that do want to transfer we will honour the existing time frames of your current license as the RASPC memberships for the life of their company NO RENEWAL FEES EVER.  Unfortunately if you do not wish to transfer to the new platform we will no longer be actively trading on your behalf and will be still trading as the old owners and placing a few trades only at 0.5% and don't believe you will make money.  As this is a new legally binding contract to replace and supersede all existing contracts of Commercial Securities Pty Ltd. There is no legal clause for refund or on sale of your current trading license.  As per your signed contract, Commercial Securities will in no circumstances be liable
  for any damages, injuries or liabilities caused directly or indirectly from the use of the membership.  This includes, without limitation incidental, consequential or special damages or damages for loss of business, lost profits, business interruption or other indirect or consequential loss arising out of the membership.  In no event will Commercial Securities be liable for any indirect, incidental, special or consequential damages, including loss of profits, loss of revenues, any other economic advantage or cost of cover incurred by customer arising out of this agreement, under any theory of liability, whether in an action in contract, strict liability, tort (including negligence) or other legal or equitable theory.  All trading is professionally undertaken, and our long term strategy is based upon results over the term of your license.  Unfortunately, as you can appreciate all investment strategies have a level of risk associated with such, and no investment offers trades
 , that are 100% successful, on each and every occasion.  From time to time we reassess our trading strategy.

If you would like to be part of this new opportunity you will need to fill out a new application form as soon as possible and then have funds transferred ready for trading to begin the first week of September.  I feel that this is in your best interest for you to have any possibility of a return from your license fees that were paid to establish your trading accounts with the previous owners of Commercial Securities Pty Ltd. 


Kind regards
Mr. Paul Ellis
Director
Commercial Securities Pty. Ltd.

So my take on this is that unless you have a trading account > $2000 then the $99 monthly fee if they make 5% is a break even result provided the 5% is of your total trading account but what if they only trade $1000 and make 5% then you go backward $50 that month.
Sounds like same s--t in different clothes.

I would be interested in comparing the results they are quoting to con people in against the actual results which I can produce for my over the odds account


----------



## drsmith (9 August 2010)

mexicanmaddog said:


> So my take on this is that unless you have a trading account > $2000 then the $99 monthly fee if they make 5% is a break even result provided the 5% is of your total trading account but what if they only trade $1000 and make 5% then you go backward $50 that month.
> Sounds like same s--t in different clothes.
> 
> I would be interested in comparing the results they are quoting to con people in against the actual results which I can produce for my over the odds account



They are preying on the gambling instinct of those allready roped in.

Following their results from this point forward is a waste of time. You know the result from bitter experience.


----------



## Me Too (13 August 2010)

bonfire0448 said:


> Well I should have looked at all these posts before handing over my money.
> Originall Commercial Securities wanted $8800 but i said no and they were happy to take $5000..
> WELL GUESS WHAT there website is unavailable the boss's mobile is disconected BUT after screaming at there answereing service they rang me.
> GUESS what they have nothing to do with the old company it is still called commercial securities but NEW owners have taken over.
> ...




Me too, i was also convince in this... i now have very little amount in my trading account. They have ask me to add more money, but i decline.
I have not been able to sleep too well lately. Can't believe people are so dishonest!!!!   Hopefully these people can be stop, and we can get some money back.


----------



## 308cc (16 August 2010)

I have also been a sucker to the tune of 20k, would love to get it back or at least something back, I have all the paperwork and emails that they have sent from when i first signed up in November 09 (wish this forum was there then) could bonfire0448 contact me as I cannot send personal message until i have 5 posts


----------



## 308cc (16 August 2010)

just a thought, how do I know or how does any of us know we aren't dealing with the people from commercial securities on this forum?? they could be using it to see what people are doing about being ripped off. any one can email me if they are taking further action I would like to be in on it. Scammed once but not again. ( I hope)


----------



## DB008 (16 August 2010)

I just flicked through this thread and am amazed at how many 1post wonders have appeared throughout it. And seriously, putting money into a group of people "that bet" your money. You've got to be kidding me, people actually believe this and follow though and deposit money to these guys. 

Weren't they on ACA or TT a few years ago as a scam and something to avoid?


----------



## 308cc (17 August 2010)

DB008 said:


> I just flicked through this thread and am amazed at how many 1post wonders have appeared throughout it. And seriously, putting money into a group of people "that bet" your money. You've got to be kidding me, people actually believe this and follow though and deposit money to these guys.
> 
> Weren't they on ACA or TT a few years ago as a scam and something to avoid?




thanks DB008 you just made me fell soooooo much smarter with your post, the best lesson's to learn are from others mistakes.(wish I could have) has anyone had any luck in getting anything back from them????? has anyone continued to deal with them and there new racing and sports punters club?????


----------



## little lukey (17 August 2010)

308cc said:


> thanks DB008 you just made me fell soooooo much smarter with your post, the best lesson's to learn are from others mistakes.(wish I could have) has anyone had any luck in getting anything back from them????? has anyone continued to deal with them and there new racing and sports punters club?????




I agree with 308cc, do you think we need to hear it. I also cant reply yet. 308cc can you contact me when bonfire0448 contacts you or can bonfire 0448 contact me as well.


----------



## 308cc (17 August 2010)

little lukey i have sent you a email, hope we can make contact that way


----------



## ROE (17 August 2010)

Wise man once said

when something is too good to be true it probably is
there is no secret formula to become rich or to make a lot of money
when someone offer you a return greater than 8% consider it risky.

Everyone can become rich and have the life style they want 
by spending less than you earn, save the left over, never touch it and invest slowly, compounding will take care of the rest..

The sooner you start that journey the richer you become...


----------



## trainspotter (17 August 2010)

My eyes glazed over after the second paragraph when they mentioned these words .....  "Moving forward we have made the serious decision to go ahead" OH OH ..... I have heard that before somewhere?

20k down and nothing to show for it huh? Where do I find people like this?


----------



## little lukey (18 August 2010)

308cc said:


> little lukey i have sent you a email, hope we can make contact that way




Thanks 308cc for contacting me, if there is anybody that would like to join us could you please make contact with 308cc or myself.


----------



## 308cc (18 August 2010)

thanks little lukey, I have sent out more emails to some of the people that have allowed emails to be received. Would like to hear from nickb, mexican maddog and bonfire 0448 if they still check back on this site. we mite have trouble getting anything back out of them, but the more support we have the better chance we have. So please if you have lost money it wont hurt anymore to look at our options.


----------



## zanne40 (22 August 2010)

These scammers have thick hides.
They don't give up and why would they, with such a lucritive scam. I was censured for accusing "Over the Odds" as being a part of it, so I retract that. But, as they complained about my posts, it proves that they are all monitoring this forum. The closure of the Comsec website, was probably due to this forum, so keep it up guys. The "new" "company", is waffling out the revamped spin. Its seems that Over the Odds is now out of the picture. At least they were contactable. The new "Odds Broker" is only a link to a sign up page. Part of the RASPC (Racing and sports punters club), which surprise surprise, has no website.
Plus the "New" company has no website and uses a "ymail" email address. Really professional. I wouldn't hold too much hope of contacting the new CEO, Paul Ellis. Probably a name pulled from a hat. The last one would have been the same. They call it "Identity Theft".
We who have been burnt, have a duty to save others from their clutches.
Oddly enough, a scheme like this could work, if it wasn't a greedy scam, so it is easy to get caught up in it.
It seems that a few of us have contacted ACA and Today Tonight, but so far they seem disinterested. Keep after them. When they see a story, they might pursue it.
The chances of getting any money back are probably nil, but the chances of seeing this person or persons in court and hopefully in gaol are pretty good.
Anyone with any money left in their account, should withdraw it with great haste. Make sure you ring "Over the odds" straight away and block the account. Get the name of the person you are talking to. (I had to do it twice before they blocked it and didn't know who I talked to the first time) When you send them the required withdrawal documents, email and fax them. (They denied receiving my first fax even though my fax report was successful.)
Contact them at "support@overtheodds.com.au"

To those of you at "Comsec" who obviously follow this forum and use it to plan their stratigies. We who have lost a lot of money to your scam, are out to close you down and see you in the place you belong.
Remember, "What goes round, Comes around ". You are staying a step in front of the law right now, but your day will come.


----------



## 308cc (23 August 2010)

well said zanne40 I agree with you totally, and thank you for contacting me, we now have 4 of us to get the ball rolling and are sending a invitation to all the others out there that have been scammed to make contact of some sort with us. As zanne40 said "What goes round, Comes around " so to the people at commercial securities who follow this forum you have scammed the wrong people this time, hope you have a nice day.( i could not type what I wanted to type as i didn't want to have to retract this post, but I'm sure you can read between the lines.)


----------



## hhralhh (24 August 2010)

I posted a thread in this forum only once on the 24 April, 2010 looking for information and help. I visited this forum few times for a couple of months. Lucky me to return back after a while. I got excited when I read that there are people are now joining together to do something about it. As now I lost all my money that I paid over this issue, I would like to participate with those who have ideas to try getting their money back. My story is on Thread #36 Page 2. I would like you please (308cc, zanne40, little lukey) to contact me to join in.


----------



## 308cc (26 August 2010)

Would love to have you on board hhralhh, just send me a email or personal message(pm) through this site and I will contact you.


----------



## ML808 (31 August 2010)

All,
I'm so glad to see you all taking action against Commercial Securities... I'm just another stupid guy paying $8800 for the licence! I've tried to call and emails and nothing come back or response.


----------



## mexicanmaddog (31 August 2010)

The guys at comsec are following our threads and are somewhat pissed off.  Mind you I am sure not half as bad as how we feel.  If the new director is real and in fact did recently buy the business then all I can say is WHY???   Assuming he knew the history of the company having read all these threads then he has bought it to continue along it dishonest tracks.  So any threads warning people should be made as public as possible.
Could Comsecs lawyers please give us reason for 1. why they are acting on their behalf and 2. why they are trying to allow their dishonesty to continue unchecked.


----------



## hhralhh (1 September 2010)

I have replied to the admin of this thread on their email asking to confirm the honesty and accuracy of my story with Commercial Securities. I encourage everyone who received an email from the admin to reply. 

This is what I said:

(As requested, I confirm that what I have posted in the "Commercial Securities" thread is both an honest and accurate account of my experiences with Commercial Securities Pty. Ltd. Please, please do not remove this thread as it is now the only approach to protect others from these scammers. I lost large amount of money through their scam and it’s my obligation to warn people. This is the least that is needed to be done for my country and its people. It appears from their request that this thread is effective and working good. I will not stop there and other options will follow. This money that I lost because of the scam is for my family sustenance and this is why I have got my self in what was suppose to be an investment in the first place.
Also, for you to gain the trust of people participating in your site, I believe it is your responsibility to act upon your obligations to have the truth alight.)


----------



## 308cc (2 September 2010)

This thread needs to stay to warn others, so if you have received a email from admin, please reply. I have had a quick count of people on this thread who have lost money from theses people and I believe 20 people are not making things up, Half of these people have contacted me and we are in the process of moving forward in stopping these people from scamming anyone else. From there recent emails to me it seems there "bookie" is running scared as they are not trading from there new racing and sports punters club.  Google is a wonderful thing to find information out, if that information is there, so if this thread is removed more will be scammed we need to stop these people from doing this.


----------



## 308cc (2 September 2010)

Once again if you have lost money through commercial securities and believe that the information you where told by or seen from them is misleading don't hesitate to contact me as we are growing in numbers. Once again good morning to the people at commercial securities, the "bookie" and there lawyers hope to catch up with you all soon .


----------



## zanne40 (2 September 2010)

For those that have no seen this site yet, have a look.
It describes this scam exactly as it unfolded for us.

http://www.scamwatch.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/SportsInvestmentScams [/URL]

As for the lawyers. What a joke. The last place CS wants to be is in a court. Wouldn't that be a godsend.
That would really get us the publicity we want.
That would enable us to find out just who is really behind this scam.
The names they use mean very little.

So, come on comsec or whoever you call yourself today. Go and take the forum to court. We've all told the truth. You've told nothing but lies. I'm sure you will create a lot of interest.
If I were you, I'd crawl back under the rock you came from and never surface again. The world doesn't really need scum like you.

Keep it up guys. We paid a lot of money to be a part of this forum.

Cheers


----------



## Sean K (2 September 2010)

I can't find anything on this company in a google, or otherwise.  

Does anyone have a reference to a website or anything?

Can anyone with brochures scan them and post them up or something? As long as it doesn't breach any of their fine print...


----------



## just looking (3 September 2010)

kennas said:


> I can't find anything on this company in a google, or otherwise.
> 
> Does anyone have a reference to a website or anything?
> 
> Can anyone with brochures scan them and post them up or something? As long as it doesn't breach any of their fine print...




Their website is now down:
http://www.commercialsecurities.com.au/

And amazingly even when the company was up and running, the only google hits I could find were the company itself, and this forum. Further suggesting the importance of this thread.

I encouraged people that had been scammed to download the monthly reports as they were available as PDFs at the time, and indicated that the company was recording magnificent returns (which we now suspect is balderdash).

Interestingly enough, I thought Google may have cached some of these monthly reports and so did a search and came up with this:

"In response to a legal request submitted to Google, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read more about the request at ChillingEffects.org"

No idea what that means but anyway...


----------



## 308cc (15 September 2010)

commercial securities recent email about there new packages for there racing and sports punters club. Still no web site and no hits in a google search. I cannot say this is a scam because i have not had personal dealings with them unlike i have had with commercial securities but it is run by the same people.

RASPC PACKAGES

As RASPC is limited to the amount of money it can trade we have put together some great packages TOTALLING 2,000 banks ($5,000 trading increments).  We also have options to pay by the month for a trial period or for those who want to minimise their upfront risk, we even can offer a bank guarantee on our larger packages.

RASPC bets mainly on Saturday, Wednesday and Public Holidays in Australia together with UK LAY and WIN betting and Sport including Soccer, Cricket, Tennis, Golf and wherever we see value.  There is no up sell as your membership goes everywhere we see the money and the volumes may vary depending on conditions etc.  We have unrivalled expertise and experience to bet on racing and sports on your behalf and our people have years in the industry.

Here are our packages:

BRONZE Ã¢â‚¬“ COST $5,000

Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 1 RASPC $5,000 Bank
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 1 $25,000 stock market unit ($25,000) COMING SOON
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Option to pay monthly cost $600 per month (if upgraded to full membership within 2 months paid amount is deducted off purchase price)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Low Monthly Fees of $100 per unit (note a minimum 5% net return for the month must be achieved before this is paid)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Limited to only 600

SILVER Ã¢â‚¬“ COST $10,000

Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 3 RASPC $5,000 BankÃ¢â‚¬™s ($15,000)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 3 $25,000 stock market unitÃ¢â‚¬™s ($75,000) COMING SOON
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Free financial plan done by our external planner
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Low Monthly Fees of $85 per unit (note a minimum 5% net return for the month must be achieved before this is paid)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Limited to only 200

GOLD Ã¢â‚¬“ COST $15,000

Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 5 RASPC $5,000 BankÃ¢â‚¬™s ($25,000)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 5 $25,000 stock market unitÃ¢â‚¬™s ($125,000) COMING SOON
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Flights and accommodation provided to meet our team
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Free financial plan done by our external planner
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Bank Guarantee Available (note this greatly reduces your % of return but gives you ZERO CAPITAL RISK)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Low Monthly Fees of $75 per unit (note a minimum 5% net return for the month must be achieved before this is paid)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Limited to only 80

PLATINUM Ã¢â‚¬“ COST $25,000

Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 20 RASPC $5,000 BankÃ¢â‚¬™s ($100,000)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Ability to trade 20 $25,000 stock market unitÃ¢â‚¬™s ($500,000) COMING SOON
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Flights and accommodation provided to meet their own customer service agent in person
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        A meeting with all of our traders in person
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Personal access to our head traderÃ¢â‚¬™s 24/7 via their personal mobile number
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Bank Guarantee Available (note this greatly reduces your % of return but gives you ZERO CAPITAL RISK)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Free financial plan done by our external planner
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Low Monthly Fees of $60 per unit (note a minimum 5% net return for the month must be achieved before this is paid)
Ã¢â‚¬ ¢        Limited to only 20

RASPC REWARDS YOUR PARTNERSHIP WITH US

RASPC is rewarding you with a series of events and prizes which we will announce on a quarterly basis.  These include packages to the Melbourne Cup Carnival, Australian Tennis Open, the 2011 World Rugby Cup, Golf trips and a glamour trip to meet Champion Group One jockey Shane Dye, and more...

WeÃ¢â‚¬™ll deliver these through our e-commerce contact and also on the website, rewards to make your involvement enjoyable and profitable.


RASPCÃ¢â‚¬™s website will be up and running this week, and watch for new information on your packages and the launch of the Stock-market packages as well plus the opportunity to be rewarded with additional benefits and prizes.

THE ALL NEW RACING AND SPORTS PUNTERS CLUB.


Kind regards

Mr Paul Ellis
Director
Commercial Securities Pty. Ltd.


----------



## 308cc (15 September 2010)

Has anyone heard from commercial securities about there new racing and sports punters club via the phone. I did get a email from them (which i did post only to have it removed because of their disclaimer at the bottom of the email). I cannot find any info on the web about there racing and sports punters club which I can only assume may be a scam due to the fact its run by the same people at commercial securities, but i cannot say for sure as i have not had personal dealings with them.


----------



## little lukey (20 September 2010)

Good to see I am still betting my $3.33 that's three dollars and thirty three cents. Checking my over the odds account I have gone from $3.33 to $3.56. Then over the period of 13/09/2010 to 20/09/2010 there was 123 bets made with 14 winning results to have a balance of $0.03. These are true and accurate results as I have the over the odds report, printed, in front of me. Surprising I haven't received the weekly wrap from Paul Ellis.


----------



## Coolerman (22 September 2010)

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER INVESTING A CENT IN THIS MONGREL SCAM!

I WAS SUCKED IN IN A MOMENT OF STUPIDITY, BOUGHT THE LICENSE AND BEGAN TRADING WITH $2000. tHAT WAS GONE WITHIN 6 MONTHS!
I REINVESTED ANOTHER $500 LAST WEEK AND THAT WAS GONE WITHIN 2 DAYS!
THEY WILL NOT ANSWER CALLS, MAILBOXES ARE FULL - OF ABUSE I EXPECT!

IS ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS BEEN SUCKED INTO THIS SCAM INTEREST AND AWARE OF HOW WE MIGHT MAKE A CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT AGAINTS THESE BASTARDS?
I AM WILLING TO FIGHT IT TO THE DEATH!
PLEASE ADVISE


----------



## Coolerman (22 September 2010)

alz said:


> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone thought of joining a class action against these people? In my contract they stipulate that bets will be placed in increments of 5% only, they seem to be placing bet of various percentages ranging from 0.5% to 6%, so surely that's got to be a breach of contract.




ALL FOR MAKING CLASS ACTION AGAINST THESE BASTARDS
PLEASE ADVISE ANY PROGRESS
WILLING TO FIGHT IT TO THE DEATH!


----------



## Coolerman (22 September 2010)

bonfire0448 said:


> Well I should have looked at all these posts before handing over my money.
> Originall Commercial Securities wanted $8800 but i said no and they were happy to take $5000..
> WELL GUESS WHAT there website is unavailable the boss's mobile is disconected BUT after screaming at there answereing service they rang me.
> GUESS what they have nothing to do with the old company it is still called commercial securities but NEW owners have taken over.
> ...





LETS GET THE BASTARDS! I AM WITH YOU ALL THE WAY!


----------



## Coolerman (22 September 2010)

Another One1 said:


> Its pretty simple take the director Zoe Keong to the small claims court in your local area and get a Magistrate to decide. I am fairly sure they will see it in your favour. Her address is posted on this forum. Ring Fair trading as they will now help with class actions as well.




VERY INTERESTED IN PERSUING FURTHER.
PLEASE ADVISE ANY FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS


----------



## zanne40 (27 September 2010)

Well well. CS seems to have gone quiet. Maybe we have just made things a bit too hot for them. The "OddsBroker" seems to have died. The registration form was made with and online form maker, which is available through an outfit called "Wufoo.com". Anyone can access it to add a signup to their site.
Seems CS have linked it to something only they can access.

Shortly before they pulled their website, I advised the Commonwealth Bank, that they were using the comsec name. Never heard back, but I don't think they bank would have been happy. Also directed them to this forum.

Also advised the ATO that we were all charged GST, and they should maybe investigate CS. Also directed the ATO to this forum.

So guys. At the moment, this forum is our only tool against these scum. Anyone that googles CS before parting with money, will bring up this forum.
We are making sure they keep their money away from this scum.

Cheers.


----------



## Danebank (28 September 2010)

It seems to me that whoever CS are - they had no intention of actually making us any money. They were only interested in the License Fee. Has anyone actually had any luck in tracking down the directors or Paul Ellis - if he actually exists? Dept. of Fair Trading will investigate this, it is a lenghty process, but if enough of us come forward (embarrising as it is) they love to nail people like this. Please keep the post going until we have enough info together - and happy to help out.
Tom


----------



## redfox43 (28 September 2010)

Danebank said:


> It seems to me that whoever CS are - they had no intention of actually making us any money. They were only interested in the License Fee. Has anyone actually had any luck in tracking down the directors or Paul Ellis - if he actually exists? Dept. of Fair Trading will investigate this, it is a lenghty process, but if enough of us come forward (embarrising as it is) they love to nail people like this. Please keep the post going until we have enough info together - and happy to help out.
> Tom




Hi !
I submitted end of Sept.09 , Shamefully.I have kept weekly records of all bets since oct.1st.
Their published records since that date to promote further sales are FALSE FALSE FALSE believe me.
I have my over the odds records month by month.
I will be happy to join any group action.


----------



## dlhayes (28 September 2010)

Commercial Securities contacted me about 8 months ago.  I have no other interests, or this one as a matter of fact, so when these people contacted me, I can tell you that they are one and the same.
The 3W's dot racingandsports.net

Now, this.
"
RASPC PACKAGES

As RASPC is limited to the amount of money it can trade, we have put together some great packages TOTALLING 750 MEMBERS and a maximum Betting bank of $10,000,000 in each Trading type.  OZ WIN, UK WIN, UK LAY AND SPORTS BETTING the CFD trading is more liquid and we can trade $40,000,000.  We also have options to pay by the month for a trial period, or for those who want to minimize their upfront risk, we can even offer a bank guarantee on our larger packages.

RASPC bets mainly on Saturday, Wednesday and public holidays in Australia, together with UK LAY and WIN betting and Sport including Soccer, Cricket, Tennis, Golf, and wherever we see value.  There is no up sell as your membership goes everywhere we see the money, and the volumes may vary depending on conditions etc.  We have unrivaled expertise and experience to bet on racing and sports on your behalf, and our people have years in the industry.
"
Same deal.  I registered on this forum just to post this alert.
Good luck all.


----------



## 308cc (28 September 2010)

dlhayes said:


> Commercial Securities contacted me about 8 months ago.  I have no other interests, or this one as a matter of fact, so when these people contacted me, I can tell you that they are one and the same.
> The 3W's dot racingandsports.net
> 
> Now, this.
> ...





thank you dlhayes  this is the same sh*t different smell, It looks like there time doing this sort of thing might just becoming to a end.


----------



## zanne40 (28 September 2010)

dlhayes said:


> Commercial Securities contacted me about 8 months ago.  I have no other interests, or this one as a matter of fact, so when these people contacted me, I can tell you that they are one and the same.
> The 3W's dot racingandsports.net
> 
> Now, this.
> ...




Just had a look at the NEW website. Same old people. Same old spin. Same old scam. Just shows you how much money they are making out of this scam.
They just won't let it go. And now they have the fabulous "MR X". How original. As for Shane Dye being part of it. Doesn't add any credibility to the scam.
Seems they have dropped the Commercial Securities tag. We've taken the integrity out of that name. "RACING AND SPORTS PUNTERS CLUB". Has the same ring to it. "MR ELLIS" may have moved on. They don't mention him. But then again. When you create a name it's just a matter of deleting it.
So intended victims. When you google RACING AND SPORTS PUNTERS CLUB, you will more than likely land in this forum. That may just be the luckiest break in your life. And unlike "THEM", we charge you nothing for it.


----------



## Farren (29 September 2010)

Hello my name is Farren Hotham I am a director of the aforesaid Racing and Sports Punters Club. Our website is www dot racingandsports dot net

I would like to indicate and re-iterate that we are not a group of faceless men, matter of fact we are credible, transparent, and honest and have the utmost integrity. I am joined by International Jockey Shane Dye and International punter/bookmaker Angus Hamilton and deny any claim we are a faceless group. There is little or no doubt that people who have good names like Shane, Angus and myself wouldn’t put our credibility out there if we didn’t think Racing and sports was anything else but a fully legitimate business.

WE refute allegations that we like others intend to produce and announce fake results, matter of fact it is common knowledge that the high risk industry of racing and sports betting has both the upside of substantial profit and the downside of losses. Racing and sports is matter of fact happy enough to give its client a free trial and even deposit 100 dollars in their trading account to prove we can product results NO ONE ELSE WILL DO THIS.

Any claim, I repeat ANY claim we have ever given out brochures is not correct. We do however have a website which outlines the packages we offer and indicate guidelines and projections on potential profit, we indicate there our target of 10% per month, this is gambling/punting and through the 6 disciplines explained on the website we do indicate there is a risk and people can lose at times. However it’s obvious our intention is to win for our clientele because if they don’t win, we don’t GET PAID!

The fact or fallacy that some people believed that if you invested 10,000 dollars and put in 1,000 in a betting account and it would make you instantly rich is a sad indictment on the company that sold this investment to you. Their obviously convincing salesman but in our opinion their persuasive sell amounted to belief in the ‘’tooth fairy or Santa Claus’’ WE DO NOT HARD SELL NOR DO WE MAKE ANY PROMISES EVER NO GET RICH QUICK SCHEMES HERE.

Racing and Sports asks our members to begin with a $5,000 MEMBERSHIP FEE and put a MIN of $2,000 in their account in 1 discipline then BUILD A RELATIONSHIP. They can have a maximum $5,000 IN 5 DIFFERENT GAMBLING DISCIPLINES OZ WIN, UK LAY, UK WIN, ASIAN WIN AND GLOBAL SPORT as well 25,000 IN THE STOCK MARKET CFD TRADING (COMING SOON). This means that a Member once they have built a winning relationship based on trust can benefit to up to $50,000 in trading money meaning once they have made 10% they have recouped there membership fee NOT 1,000% LIKE OTHERS (WHEN IT SOUNDS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT NORMALLY IS). 

Racing and Sports does not target people wishing to get rich quick "IT DOESN'T HAPPEN EVER". We want genuine investors as we get our fees if our members make 5% ($100 PER DISCIPLINE). So we need members to be trading all 6 disciplines AND WIN to get $600 A MONTH that’s our target, some will win some will lose. If our members trade all disciplines. We hope to generate them a 5% A MONTH $2,500 A MONTH LESS $600 FEES, $1,900 NET the more disciplines traded the better the result we believe as when some are weak 1 month others may be stronger NO ONE WINS ALL THE TIME we just try put the odds in your favor more.

Finally we understand the racing industry has been hurt by many of these poorly run organizations and I would like to give you the opportunity to make some of the return on investment and even the money you have lost NO PROMISES BUT WE ARE FULLY TRANSPARENT 100%. For anyone who has been burnt not just by COMMERCIAL SECURITIES but ALL other failed racing SCAMS we offer the following. If you can prove you have been burnt we will give you a free membership VALUED AT $5,000 subject to availability of course. Racing and Sports is just starting and we intend to be the most transparent, informative and profitable punters club in the nation. Why because we have an expert team of analysts who we trust and believe in.

Racing and Sports believes by doing this we can restore people’s faith in being involved in something enjoyable and profitable and for anyone who has been scammed by these people we can at least showcase the ‘’real deal’’ to you. We understand the failures of the past and believe in spending our own time to attempt to reclaim your lost ‘’hard earned money’’

*FINAL MESSAGE DO NOT BLAME US BECAUSE YOU HAVE LOST FAITH IN HUMANITY AND THE RACING INDUSTRY IT WAS GREED AND SOME QUICK TALKING SALESPEOPLE WHO GOT YOU HERE NOT US WE ARE JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU ALL GOOD PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN BURNT WE KNOW YOU ARE BRUISED BUT ITS NOT OUR FAULT SO PLEASE DON'T PAIR OUR COMPANY WITH THE LIKES OF ALL THESE SCAMS WE ARE THE REAL DEAL AND 100% TRANSPARENT * 

Feel free to email me i have not blocked emails on here and will respond to every email we want to get these guys as much as anyone and may even be able to help you guys we have acquired quite a few large databases of burnt clients most have closed down but we want all shut down same as you

GOOD LUCK

Farren Hotham


----------



## Farren (29 September 2010)

I have tried to contact as many people who have been burnt by SCAM ARTISTS PROMISING THE WORLD AND DELIVERING AN ATLAS as i said before in my previous post feel free to contact me on here i need to post 5 times before i can contact anyone personally so rather than put up posts that are useless as i LOVE what you guys are doing and i want to HELP where i can this industry has been good to me i started as a young boy as a race caller and to see it destroyed by these type of people appalls me WE LIKE TO GIVE BACK so our rescue packages are like a doctor doing a CHARITY operation as we believe once we show you we are the real deal you will be our best advertisement SO PLEASE DON'T PAIR US WITH ANY OF THESE SCAMS WE ARE TRYING TO HELP THERE MEMBERS WE ARE 100% INDEPENDENT and can only gain by MAKING YOU MONEY as we have no upfront if you take our RESCUE package ITS THAT SIMPLE 

Farren Hotham


----------



## drsmith (30 September 2010)

Dear Farren,

If it makes money, why are you selling it rather than using it ?


----------



## Farren (30 September 2010)

drsmith said:


> Dear Farren,
> 
> If it makes money, why are you selling it rather than using it ?




Dr smith great question and one that should always be asked if 1 person is betting with a betting agency and you win it is very easy for them to BAR you and they will with most of these big companies to lose 750 clients and there turnover it is easier for them to just HANDLE the money therefore 1 client = HOT MONEY and 750 clients turning over money that they offload is much easier to do also the fact that we charge fees we don't need to risk millions of dollars to have 50,000,000 trading in GAMBLING and 40,000,000 in STOCKS the result on all members wining 66% ie 4 out of 6 disciplines is 400 x 4 disciplines (that win this is a conservative average some will win some will lose) = 1,600 x $100 $160,000 // 200 x 4 x 250 = $200,000 // 100 x 4 x 350 = $140,000 // 50 x 4 x 1,000 = $200,000 so between $700,000 and over $1,000,000 in fees at full capacity lets call it $500,000 as the bulk is STOCK MARKET and there are 750 clients with a conservative PE (PE RATIO) of 6 (16% return) we have a company worth $36,000,000 then if we give away say 300 SILVER memberships but sell 100 silver, 200 gold, 100 platinum & 50 VIP THAT'S $5,250,000 IN SALES that is the full behind the scenes WORT'S AND ALL of what our business plan is to net $500,000 a month DOING WHAT WE LOVE there is more money in being LEGIT than SCAMMING people ALL WE NEED TO DO IS WIN and we get the long term benifit and an EXIT STRATEGY in 5 years 

Ps thanks for your question and i loved your earlier WARNING to the people in COM SEC i am sure some people believe in the TOOTH FAIRY and SANTA CLAUSE but we want our members to have up to $50,000 trading and we charge 10% $5,000 to join ONE OFF not $10,000 to join and $1,000 trading to make $50,000 in a year it can NEVER HAPPEN we are HIGH RISK but we do a lot of FORM and have some great analysts AND OFFER A 100% FREE TRIAL WITH AS LITTLE AS $100 NO PAST RESULTS AS THEY ARE MISLEADING AND MOSTLY RUBBISH ANYWAY


----------



## 308cc (30 September 2010)

Farren said:


> I have tried to contact as many people who have been burnt by SCAM ARTISTS PROMISING THE WORLD AND DELIVERING AN ATLAS
> Farren Hotham




this sounds very similar to something I have read in a email

"the only problem with the current members is that they have all been
promised the world and handed an atlas by the previous owners of Commercial
Securities."

It might just be that yourself and the old head trader of commercial securities went to the same school.

I hope your offer stands for a few weeks as I don't have time to reply to you directly as i am about to go on holidays, But I would love to discuss this further when I return. 
Thank you 308cc

P.s. good morning to the team at commercial securities hope you are all well:


----------



## Farren (30 September 2010)

308cc said:


> this sounds very similar to something I have read in a email
> 
> *It is a very common Racetrack saying "promised the world and given an Atlas" *
> 
> ...




*I am pretty sure they would be undercover as most of the scams are being cleaned up 1 by 1 at the moment so its great for us as we dot every I and every T*


----------



## drsmith (30 September 2010)

Farren said:


> Dr smith great question and one that should always be asked if 1 person is betting with a betting agency and you win it is very easy for them to BAR you and they will with most of these big companies to lose 750 clients and there turnover it is easier for them to just HANDLE the money therefore 1 client = HOT MONEY and 750 clients turning over money that they offload is much easier to do also the fact that we charge fees we don't need to risk millions of dollars to have 50,000,000 trading in GAMBLING and 40,000,000 in STOCKS the result on all members wining 66% ie 4 out of 6 disciplines is 400 x 4 disciplines (that win this is a conservative average some will win some will lose) = 1,600 x $100 $160,000 // 200 x 4 x 250 = $200,000 // 100 x 4 x 350 = $140,000 // 50 x 4 x 1,000 = $200,000 so between $700,000 and over $1,000,000 in fees at full capacity lets call it $500,000 as the bulk is STOCK MARKET and there are 750 clients with a conservative PE (PE RATIO) of 6 (16% return) we have a company worth $36,000,000 then if we give away say 300 SILVER memberships but sell 100 silver, 200 gold, 100 platinum & 50 VIP THAT'S $5,250,000 IN SALES that is the full behind the scenes WORT'S AND ALL of what our business plan is to net $500,000 a month DOING WHAT WE LOVE there is more money in being LEGIT than SCAMMING people ALL WE NEED TO DO IS WIN and we get the long term benifit and an EXIT STRATEGY in 5 years
> 
> Ps thanks for your question and i loved your earlier WARNING to the people in COM SEC i am sure some people believe in the TOOTH FAIRY and SANTA CLAUSE but we want our members to have up to $50,000 trading and we charge 10% $5,000 to join ONE OFF not $10,000 to join and $1,000 trading to make $50,000 in a year it can NEVER HAPPEN we are HIGH RISK but we do a lot of FORM and have some great analysts AND OFFER A 100% FREE TRIAL WITH AS LITTLE AS $100 NO PAST RESULTS AS THEY ARE MISLEADING AND MOSTLY RUBBISH ANYWAY



The full stop on your keyboard must have broken somewhere between your first post and the above post.

You also appear to be having trouble with the caps lock as well.

Like CS before, gambling other people's money and charging a fee for the service is only a good gig for the promoters of the scheme.


----------



## Farren (30 September 2010)

drsmith said:


> The full stop on your keyboard must have broken somewhere between your first post and the above post.
> 
> You also appear to be having trouble with the caps lock as well.
> 
> Like CS before, gambling other people's money and charging a fee for the service is only a good gig for the promoters of the scheme.




BIG money if you know what you are doing and are TRANSPARENT that's why we have some very high profile members we are expecting great reviews in November and December after our first couple of months of trading so fingers crossed we can preform what we know we can but who knows it is Racing and unlike others we make NO promises but we are very confident UNDER PROMISE AND OVER DELIVER is our motto 

Thanks for your feedback 

P.S can i ask your background are you a finance broker if so i can give you half a dozen high profile investors who have taken up memberships only for the STOCK MARKET side they are not interested in the GAMBLING i am more than happy to give you there names they include a CTO of a publicly listed company, a retired partner (20+ years) at major global legal firms , TV stars, International performers and more we will have testimonials up after 1 months full trading FROM REAL PEOPLE


----------



## zanne40 (30 September 2010)

This is pretty much how it was explined to me, $18,000 ago.
After we all lost our hard earned cash, Commercial Securities, (after pressure from this forum), shut up shop. Then it seems that "Over the Odds", deserted them.
Then Commercial Securties resurfaces. Not the old company we are told. New ownership. Enter Mr Paul Ellis, new CEO. New spin.
"Quote"
I have re-enlisted the knowledge and ability of my Head Trader and his team of analysts and traders as they are the best in the world with proven results. They have set up their new Racing and Sports Punters Club and I know that they can make you some money back on your investment.  I have seen their results first hand and I am sure you will see that if they weren’t pushed to turn over so much money and be as aggressive as they were when I first acquired Commercial Securities,  that 10% a month profit would have been easily achievable, as they bet WIN, PLACE  and even LAY horses (back to lose "be the bookie") and on not only Australian Racing but also UK racing and on all Global sports not just win like we did, but when targeting massive returns that were promised, you can only bet WIN.  Take a look at their strike rate; they had well over 50% Placed runners and normally at good odds.
 "Unquote"
Sound familiar. Remember, this is from "Paul Ellis". At this stage "Racing and Sports Punters club" is just a name. There is no website. No details. No faces.
"OddsBroker" surfaced for a bit, then faded away. Also had no website.

Anyway, we have a new revamped Commercial Securities, under new ownership. A quick check shows that they are still a registered Australian company. Paul sends a few emails to reinforce the aims of the new Comsec.

But. Them darn forum guys are not buying it. Paul Ellis is not doing it. He seems to have now disappeared.

Enter Farrum. Same story, but no mention of Paul Ellis. And now Raspc has a website. He states they are an international company. But they had no website. Now they do. And faces. Anyone involved in IT, knows how easy it is to get a website up and running. It ain't rocket science.

Guess what. Commercial Securities is still a registered company. (although no longer registered for GST). No mention of RASPC though. So how are they paying tax? Are they paying GST?

Now Farrum. If you are now so up front. Why do you not display an office address? Why do you not have contact phone and fax numbers? Why can you only be contacted through the contact page. I would lay good odds that you will phone prospective clients, using a PRIVATE phone number.
So Farrum, if you are a new look company, why employ the same tactics.
We have learnt from the start of this journey, that websites don't mean very much. You profess to being a highly professional international company.
Your website is anything but professional.

Having pictures on a webpage, is not putting faces to a company and if you look at the history of Commercial Securities, CEO's and directors, come and go fairly regularly. All a client gets is a faceless phone call. I have researched you and although I had never heard of you, you seem to be legit. That is if it is you. We have no way of knowing that. Everything is so covert. You are a media person, so why is this all kept away from the media.

And Angus Hamilton. Why, if he can make so much money all round the world, would he worry about me making a buck. I don't think so. And by they way.
Your photo you show on the webpage, is exactly the same photo I found on a certain organisations website, over in Asia. I'd almost think it was a copy and paste. And MR X! Thats superman stuff. A real trading company would not resort to that garbage.

So Farrum, no more spin. Convince us that you are the real deal. And remember that we are getting a lot of interested parties, reading this forum.
Maybe you might like to reimburse all of us victims. Now I do like the sound of that.


----------



## Me Too (30 September 2010)

Zane40, i do like the sound of that, reimbursment, would be good!!!!


----------



## Farren (1 October 2010)

zanne40 said:


> *
> We were only giving tips on a Saturday at this point in time and at no time had entered in to any rescue package after doing our own due diligence A LOT FROM THIS FORUM we decided all we could do was offer a rescue package for burnt victims WE WOULD NOT BE AFFILIATED with any of these companies we have to much to lose  *
> 
> Enter Farrum. Same story, but no mention of Paul Ellis. And now Raspc has a website. He states they are an international company. But they had no website. Now they do. And faces. Anyone involved in IT, knows how easy it is to get a website up and running. It ain't rocket science.
> ...



*
Reimburse people isn't what we are doing enough IT IS NOT MY FAULT you were all sucked in by these SCAM artists and that YOU believed something that sounded TO GOOD TO BE TRUE i feel very sorry you were SCAMMED by these people but again DON'T BLAME ME I DONT HAVE YOUR MONEY I AM TRYING TO HELP* 

TO HELP YOU OUT HERE IS OUR TERMS OF SERVICE YOU WILL SEE WE DON'T TRY AND SUGAR COAT THE FACT IT IS GAMBLING AND THERE IS RISK UNLIKE OTHERS
Terms and Conditions "Guest Membership"
General
    * We provide a discretionary betting service, providing selections in sporting and racing events at our discretion. We place bets on your behalf under the terms and conditions set out herein.
    * The following terms and conditions represent the entire agreement between You and racingandsports.net pty ltd (RASPC) in full. All other agreements, representations, etc are null and void. This is the only and the entire agreement between Us. 
    * If Your application for a Guest RASPC membership is accepted You agree to be bound by the following terms and conditions.
    * We conduct a completely discretionary betting service (the Service) that TARGETS a return of between 10% and 20% per month (High Risk). We do not WARRANT any returns. We do not however, charge any monthly fees until you have earned 5% GROSS of your monthly starting balance. This is calculated on the 1st of every month and the period is a calendar month. 
    * You personally control all account funds through the use of a personalized numbered account that can be accessed online or by telephone. Only you can withdraw funds from your account unless otherwise directed by you, other than in accordance with our normal activity in transacting and placing bets for you and as authorised under this Agreement for monthly fees.    
    * Although we may assist in the establishment of your account, it and the funds in it are totally under your control.
    * This Agreement is able to be terminated by either party immediately upon notice to the other.
    * Your dealings with us are confidential. You must not distribute, copy or disclose the terms of our agreement with you or any of our dealings with you other than to or with your legal and financial advisers. If you breach this confidentiality you will be subject to legal proceedings and may become liable for the payment of significant damages.  
    *  We may change these terms and conditions and notify you of such changes. Your continued use of our services will constitute acceptance of the varied terms and conditions. 

Trading
    * You acknowledge that your membership entitles you to a maximum account balance of $100. If your account balance goes over this amount you must upgrade to a different membership category with a higher account balance allowance, or withdraw funds to bring the balance under $100. We only have 400 allotted memberships in total adding up to a maximum trading bank of $10,000,000 per trading type so another membership is subject to availability and is not guaranteed note we may also change the number of memberships due to demand but the maximum trading amount will stay the same $10,000,000 per trading type.
    * We transact and place bets for you with full discretion on your authority which is given pursuant to this Agreement in what we consider to be a conservative manner between 0.5% to 5% of your account balance per transaction. If this does not concur with your personal risk tolerance HIGH RISK, we suggest you do not use out service.
    * We may bet as frequently or as infrequently as we see fit. Ie - if we don't think there is value or the conditions are not, in our view, favorable, we won’t transact at all. WE ONLY PLACE BETS WHEN WE FEEL CONDITIONS WARRANT IT and there may be any number of reasons, all completely within our discretion, why we decide not to place any bets at all for any period of time.
    * You acknowledge and agree that the bets and transactions we engage in on your account are completely within our judgment and discretion and you grant us full authority while this agreement is current to undertake these activities on your behalf.
    * You may terminate or suspend our betting activities at any time with immediate effect provided we actually receive notice of the termination or suspension if betting is suspended for more than 30 days any agreement or membership is deemed to be voided or canceled.
    * You agree this becomes a legally binding agreement once you deposit funds into your account or you otherwise accept the terms of this agreement online or in any other legally binding manner. 
    * This is a FREE TRIAL for access to our services and is only a guest membership it can be terminated at any time.
    * We will initiate the service within 3 days of payment in full providing your betting account is funded for us to bet and you have signed a copy of these terms and conditions.


----------



## prawn_86 (1 October 2010)

Farren,

Any further posts about your service will be considered as spam.

Please keep the thread on topic


----------



## Farren (1 October 2010)

prawn_86 said:


> Farren,
> 
> Any further posts about your service will be considered as spam.
> 
> Please keep the thread on topic




Prawn i am responding to Malicious accusations that are clearly targeting our services as we have 100% NOTHING to do with comercial securities we are 100% stand alone our solicitors have warned this forum of same but we continue to have libelous comments probably from com sec themselves for approaching there members we have asked for any posts relating the 2 companies to be pulled down they haven't so we are refuting the claims in an open forum so either pull down any link of us to COM SEC as we are good people and the damages could be millions to our company for trying to do the right thing 

Thanks 
Farren


----------



## Farren (1 October 2010)

prawn_86 said:


> Farren,
> 
> Any further posts about your service will be considered as spam.
> 
> Please keep the thread on topic




Sean you are a smart guy with a distinction average in your Finance studies and were in the top 10% of your class so you would know for a forum to continue to allow slanderous and defamatory posts after being warned on several occasions is NOT ON we are not spamming just trying to clear our GOOD name that has been let dragged down with these other SCUMBAGS its that simple


----------



## Joe Blow (1 October 2010)

Farren,

We have no problem with any company posting on ASF to correct or clarify any information they believe to be false or inaccurate. In fact, we encourage it. However, we do not allow people to promote their businesses or make any offers of a commercial nature in posts on the forums.


----------



## drsmith (1 October 2010)

Farren said:


> P.S can i ask your background are you a finance broker if so i can...........



If you were genuine about establishing that type of business relationship with me, you would have raised it in private.

The answer in either case is no.


----------



## professor_frink (1 October 2010)

Hi Farren,

I was just looking through your website and have a few questions.

Wouldn't managing money on behalf of people constitute a managed investment scheme? If that is the case, where is the PDS on your website?

Wouldn't that also require you to hold an AFSL? There is also no mention of any of that on your website either.

You are telling us that "high profile investors" have signed up with your company just for the stockmarket side of things. Yet there is absolutely no mention on your website of who the person is that is doing the trading(when you go to great lengths to mention the people involved in the gambling side of things) and  no mention of an AFSL number on the site either. Sorry but this doesn't seem quite right to me.

Thanks in advance for any answers.


----------



## Farren (1 October 2010)

Joe Blow said:


> Farren,
> 
> We have no problem with any company posting on ASF to correct or clarify any information they believe to be false or inaccurate. In fact, we encourage it. However, we do not allow people to promote their businesses or make any offers of a commercial nature in posts on the forums.




IT IS FREE SO IT IS NOT COMMERCIAL


----------



## Farren (1 October 2010)

professor_frink said:


> Hi Farren,
> 
> I was just looking through your website and have a few questions.
> 
> ...




The stock market side has not yet launched but yes it will have an AFSL as for gambling YOU DO NOT NEED ONE that is why all the SCAMMERS get away with it WE DO NOT MANAGE MONEY WE BET UNDER DISCRETION THERE IS NO MANAGEMENT OF FUNDS hope this helps PS WE DO HAVE AN AMAZING LEGAL TEAM


----------



## professor_frink (1 October 2010)

Farren said:


> The stock market side has not yet launched but yes it will have an AFSL as for gambling YOU DO NOT NEED ONE that is why all the SCAMMERS get away with it WE DO NOT MANAGE MONEY WE BET UNDER DISCRETION THERE IS NO MANAGEMENT OF FUNDS hope this helps PS WE DO HAVE AN AMAZING LEGAL TEAM




There's no need to yell Farren, and a little punctuation wouldn't go astray either

I'm still slightly confused here. Could you clarify what placing a bet under discretion means, and how it is different to managing funds? 

Will your clients be giving you authority to make decisions on their behalf in regards to the cfd side of the operation, or does racingandsports.net just make suggestions to the clients and then let them make their own decisions?


----------



## doctorj (1 October 2010)

You have to question the business acumen of someone that 
(i) allegedly "takes over" a business, that they claim they had no former relationship with when that business is in an industry that relies on trust and it fails because (as they freely admit) was a scam
(ii) communicates with the professionalism of a crack***** on a shady street corner in some undesirable part of town

In a world with so many people willing to look after other people's money, why on earth would anyone pick you?


----------



## zanne40 (1 October 2010)

I am a little confused Farrum. This forum is about Commercial Securities.
This has been targeted against them an their connections. 

You state that you are in no way connected to Commercial Securities. So. Why did you even end up in this forum. 

Why did "Paul Elliis" send us emails, stating Commercial Securities connection with RASPC, who we had never heard of till then.

As RASPC didn't exist till "Paul Ellis" created it, why would you use the name for your venture, if you didn't want any connection with Commercial Securities. The name only came up here because Commercial Securities brought it up.
I quote you from an earlier post;
"Prawn i am responding to Malicious accusations that are clearly targeting our services as we have 100% NOTHING to do with comercial securities we are 100% stand alone our solicitors have warned this forum of same but we continue to have libelous comments probably from com sec themselves "
                                                                                Unquote

The warning we got, was from Commercial Securities Lawyers. This is getting more confusing. For you as well as us. We have had no warnings from RASPC.
You'd better remember which cap you have on, when you post.


Lastly, as you deny any connection with Commercial Securities and state that you are in no way responsible for their scam. Why are you then putting out a rescue package. Is it just your good nature.

You know what Farrum, if that is indeed who you are. Once you start telling untruths you have to keep telling them. The worst part is they start to contradict each other.


----------



## Farren (2 October 2010)

zanne40 said:


> I am a little confused Farrum. This forum is about Commercial Securities.
> This has been targeted against them an their connections.
> 
> You state that you are in no way connected to Commercial Securities. So. Why did you even end up in this forum.
> ...




*Its farren for the record *


----------



## zanne40 (2 October 2010)

This is from the ACCC, Scamwatch site.

"Quote"

What are sports investment schemes?

Sports investment schemes can include computer prediction (betting software) or betting syndicates. Salespeople try to convince you that their foolproof system can guarantee you a profit on sporting events like football or horseracing.

These schemes are often camouflaged as legitimate investments when they are merely just a form of gambling and, in many cases, outright scams.

They can cost over $15 000 and some also require ongoing payments. Once money has been paid, most of them do not work as promised and buyers can’t get their money back or in many cases the supplier simply disappears.

Ask yourself: If these systems produce a guaranteed, risk-free profit, why are they trying to sell the scheme to me instead of using it to make millions themselves?

"Unquote"

Commercial Securities seems to have disappeared.

Or have they?


----------



## Farren (2 October 2010)

zanne40 said:


> This is from the ACCC, Scamwatch site.
> 
> "Quote"
> 
> ...




In our FIRST two days of trading since our 1st October LAUNCH we have had 17 races that we bet in we found 7 winners and 8 placings of our 7 winners 2 were over $11 we have showed 17% return so far after 2 days of trading I am happy to show anyone a members account to this effect and even have an ex COM SEC member who took advantage of our offer and was trading with $3,000 and made over $500 already so ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS we are more than happy to show anyone REAL ACCOUNTS they cant lie i am off now been a big day and we have been celebrating our BIG LAUNCH trouble free TOMORROW if you message me i will even give you our bets early so you can watch live or if you want we will open an account and even deposit the money for you just to show we are the real deal NO LOSE if you dont like it keep the $100 if you do then come on board please hit me up if interested


----------



## peterdm (4 October 2010)

Ok guys and gals. I admit it. I had excess funds looking for somewhere to invest some of it; I got taken in. That's water under the bridge let's just get these 'people' and put them where they belong and see if there is some kind of redress. I also will contact ASIC and together perhaps we can get a result.
I'm with you all the way.


----------



## zanne40 (4 October 2010)

From Sydney Morning Herald, June 2009

Quote

The schemes are promoted using betting syndicates, requiring the money to be put into an account, or software packages sold for as much as $19,000.

Queensland's Fair Trading Office and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) have received more than 650 complaints since January relating to losses totalling more than $4 million.

But the true impact of the scams is believed to be at least $20 million nationally, ACCC deputy chairman Peter Kell says.

Checks of 40 companies, mostly on the Gold Coast, found many of the addresses did not exist and the scammers were using post office boxes to avoid being traced.

Mainly Queensland and NSW punters have fallen victim to the schemes.

Fraud squad Detective Superintendent Brian Hay says criminal investigations are under way into seven companies.

"Many large sums of money are involved and unfortunately a lot of dreams are going to be shattered and lives changed forever," Det Supt Hay said.

"You are not going to get a quick turnaround to the volume that's being quoted by these professional-looking brochures and slick-talking telemarketers.

"It's not one or two people or companies, it's almost like a nefarious and insidious industry that's populated a certain landscape."

He said the scammers faced up to 14 years in jail.

Queensland Fair Trading Minister Peter Lawlor said the scammers used phrases like "investment scheme" and "risk free" to lure punters.

"Investigators have found that many of these gambling scams are now marketing their systems as recession-proof and tax-free," Mr Lawlor said.

Sportingbet Australia spokesman Bill Richmond said if it sounded too good to be true, it probably was.

"It's the age-old scam alert. If (the scammers) were genuinely making that much money off the system, they wouldn't be trying to make it for someone else," he said.

UniTAB spokesman Brad Tamer said the company did not endorse the practice of sports arbitrage, but it was not illegal.

"They're just scraping through our websites - it's open slather, there's nothing we can do to stop it," he said.

However, he stressed there was no relationship between any sports arbitrage company and UniTAB.

Mr Tamer said the company referred all queries about joining such schemes to the Office of Fair Trading.

Unquote


----------



## Farren (4 October 2010)

Please see our results on our results page actions speak louder than words we have offered a free rescue package to all not only COM SEC who have been burnt by these scam artists but still we continue to be slammed by this forum all we are trying to do is help we can provide the actual account in our results section to anyone needing to see evidence


----------



## zanne40 (4 October 2010)

From ABC News, June 2009

Gold Coast a 'haven' for betting scams
Posted Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:18pm AEST 

A joint operation involving police, the Office of Fair Trading and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) is cracking down on sport betting scams in Queensland.

Authorities say Australians have lost up to $20 million because of fraudulent or misleading sport betting companies over the past two years.

Peter Kell from the ACCC says people should beware of schemes that seem to be good to be true.

"The climate is unfortunately ripe for scams and consumer losses in this area we've seen more and more consumers engaging in online trading," he said.

"We've also seen obviously a loss of confidence in the mainstream investment markets."

Authorities say the Gold Coast is a haven for the scams.

Detective Superintendent Brian Hay says 39 Gold Coast companies were targeted last month, but most were no longer at their registered address.

"Unfortunately what we're seeing is hundreds of people being ensnared, some large sums of money are involved and unfortunately a lot of people's dreams are going to be shattered and their lives changed forever," he said.

Detective Superintendant Hay says some of the companies have failed to honour unrealistic odds, while others have simply disappeared with the money bet.

"You are not going to get a quick turnaround on an investment to the volume that they've been promoted by these professional products... they certainly look professional these glossy brochures these slick talking advertising marketing people that telephone you," he said.

"It's fraught with danger: don't get excited, get advice."


----------



## zanne40 (4 October 2010)

Farren said:


> Please see our results on our results page actions speak louder than words we have offered a free rescue package to all not only COM SEC who have been burnt by these scam artists but still we continue to be slammed by this forum all we are trying to do is help we can provide the actual account in our results section to anyone needing to see evidence




We were shown the same thing by Commercial Securities. I still have the printouts they sent me. Problem was, I believed them. In hindsight, we all know that they were fabricated. Not saying yours are too, but, once burnt, twice shy. You know the story.

One thing I am wondering about. I read the Bio of Farren Hotham. It is pretty impressive. I am trying to figure out, how someone involved in the media, has such shocking grammar. Every one of your posts, has none. No capitals. No commers. No periods. Whats the go there. Isn't really a good look, for a company director.

I did a bit of research on the rest of your team
Googling Angus Hamilton draws a blank. There are numerous pages, referring to various Angus Hamilton’s, but not the one referred to at RASPC. I find that a bit strange, since you state that he is very high profile in the gambling world. The Wizard of Odds is a website, in no way connected to Angus.

Also, drawing a blank, with Tom Farkas. I tried to associate the name with football, but nothing.  If he is known as Mr Football, then surely there would be something coming up. Photo looks a bit dodgy. Head down, looking away, with shades on. Not a good look for a launch photo

Of course we all know who Shane Dye is. The only reference to him being a director of RASPC, is in a media release by you.(on a online media site, where they added that all claims made, were by the author and not substantiated by them)
I find that a little strange. I would have thought a directorship, would be newsworthy. I did read that he's leaving Mauritius, after some suspect rides and may be heading to India to ride. Seems trainers back in Oz, won't touch him. Thought maybe he might be comming back to Oz, to participate in his new venture. Please let us know what is happening there. Its all part of your sell, so we should know his intentions.

Trying to believe what you are telling us, but you have been the author of everything told to us. There is nothing anywhere, offering us proof of your claims. Sorry. Your word is just not good enough. We've been to that movie already.


----------



## drsmith (4 October 2010)

zanne40 said:


> One thing I am wondering about. I read the Bio of Farren Hotham. It is pretty impressive. I am trying to figure out, how someone involved in the media, has such shocking grammar. Every one of your posts, has none. No capitals. No commers. No periods. Whats the go there. Isn't really a good look, for a company director.



The poor grammer is an act. Check the difference between his first and subsequent posts. That was the point of my comments in post #174.


----------



## Sean K (4 October 2010)

Is this Farren?

Nice fringe.



> Farren is active in charity fundraising ... in ... the Philippines.
> 
> He is also the Director of a thriving tri media business in the Philippines which has provided Offset Printing, Graphic Design, Web Design and Development and Video production. services to companies .... in the Middle East.
> 
> Many multi-nationals now ultilized Farrens special talents as a story teller....and video maker.




What's so special about the Philippines, and story telling, and, um, video making...? 

oh dear.


----------



## Sean K (4 October 2010)

kennas said:


> Is this Farren?
> 
> Nice fringe.



If it is, he seems to be a director of some other company involved with construction. 

Good resume. 

http://www.seecsp.com/team.htm

I haven't found any reference to anything he has done except to say that he's done stuff....


----------



## zanne40 (5 October 2010)

drsmith said:


> The poor grammer is an act. Check the difference between his first and subsequent posts. That was the point of my comments in post #174.




Yes Dr Smith. I see what you mean. In post #168, his grammar is quite good. More what I would expect. Is it an act, or are later posts being penned by a different person. This gets more and more intriguing.


----------



## Farren (5 October 2010)

In reply all i can say is PLEASE see an actual members account with betting numbers next to it THIS CAN NOT BE FAKE otherwise we are breaking the law this is a real account go to "RESULTS" on racingandsports dot net THAT'S IT FINAL ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS 

I do understand you have been burnt but please understand we just tried to help the offer no longer stands anyway as we are nearly close to full subscription. Remember this was a FREE offer our "rescue package" the good news is a lot of burnt people are now recouping there losses


----------



## Farren (5 October 2010)

Hello Again, many thanks for your interest in racingandsports.net and your debate on it. There is little doubt the transparency, credibility and information we provide and that it is absolute proof of our strategic approach to this business.

I do invite you to continue the debate on our worthiness and of course judge our results. In relation to Shane Dye he is an advisor to our business and is working out of Asia with a number of racing people. Trainers in Australia would happily employ this brilliant jockey to ride their horses but Shane is working on projects for us and them currently.

In relation to Angus Hamilton, he formerly worked with CITY INDEX and has an outstanding record and he is also a very honourable chap. Thomas Farkas has retired from professional football but I can tell you is an extremely talented and skill expert when it comes to the round ball game.

At the risk of defending myself, I have worked internationally on events such as Olympic and Commonwealth Games, World Cups in all sports and do have shareholding in seecsp in the Philippines and poineered a Tri Media business which still flourishes there . Finally let me promise you that our team would have not set up such a business without thorough research and if thought this would taint or shatter any our personal credibility or names or those of our families we would not be doing so, please feel free to ask anything of me and i will all too willing to participate freely in your discussions or if you want I can refrain from responding.


----------



## zanne40 (5 October 2010)

Fair enough. Lets hear from some of you people, that accepted the "Rescue package". They have closed the offer, meaning they have some 400 odd clients, they are betting on behalf of. Obviously, if you do exist, a lot of you will be aware of this forum and as Farren has stated, some will have been burnt like us.

If you have had a good experience with Commercial Securities/RASPC, please share it with us.
Readers should hear both sides of this debate.


----------



## peterdm (6 October 2010)

I am new to all this and have only recently joined the debate and admitted that I was conned just like many of you guys. Surely the constant back and forth is non-productive and guaranteed to get nowhere. 

The really great thing about  is that it feels sooo good when you stop. So! let's get this thing out in the public arena and take these guys down where they belong. You have my support and I'm sure that of many others too.

I lost money and quite frankly I want it back. We're all in this together :aus:


----------



## professor_frink (6 October 2010)

Farren said:


> Hello Again, many thanks for your interest in racingandsports.net and your debate on it. There is little doubt the transparency, credibility and information we provide and that it is absolute proof of our strategic approach to this business.
> 
> I do invite you to continue the debate on our worthiness and of course judge our results. In relation to Shane Dye he is an advisor to our business and is working out of Asia with a number of racing people. Trainers in Australia would happily employ this brilliant jockey to ride their horses but Shane is working on projects for us and them currently.
> 
> ...




Hi Farren,

Looks like you missed my earlier question so I'll ask again:

Could you clarify what placing a bet under discretion means, and how it is different to managing funds? 

Will your clients be giving you authority to make decisions on their behalf in regards to the cfd side of the operation, or does racingandsports.net just make suggestions to the clients and then let them make their own decisions?


----------



## Farren (6 October 2010)

Thank you for your interest once again. www.racingandsports.net bets for its clients. They sign up as a member, pay a membership fee, and then also pay to trade in their account which they can see it anytime. (Totally transparent)

Racingandsports have the expertise to bet on Australian and International Horse Racing and Sport and have the analysts and traders to do it. unlike all other companies who have done something similiar to this in the past we advise people of the risk, that is gambling and the upsides and downsides are there.

We bet for them from an account set up in their name. 

In relation to CFD's and the Stock Market, I and my fellow directors have our legal team checking on the licenses we will have to do this and what rules we are strictly advised to follow, so its a little difficult to reveal details but I am happy to do so when we have the instructions.

This is all about ''doing the right thing'', creating additional income streams for our members and enjoying the mutual opportunities in which this strives to achieve. You'll see on the website that is something that we are looking at in the future, matter of fact I was at a major mining conference talking with some of the major companies to get an idea on the world stage. Most interesting.

Our terms and conditions are available on the website, racingandsports.net. I am always available to reply and happy to also furnish my phone number to you to personally then you can call me if you have any problem with ANYTHING WE DO.

I don't think I can be anymore transparent and honest than that, Believe me spending my and your time defending the poor business acumen of others is frustrating for us all.  Let me know if I am answering your questions suitably, before I had my PA answering these but her english leaves a lot to be desired in the greatest respect to her. That means now I am defending an already successfull business which is open, transparent and credible.

I am disclosing the fact that I am a director of racingandsports.net, a shareholder of seescp in the Philippines who are about to announce some major constructions over there.

Again many thanks for your interest and my hope is that I am helping the debate and forum in a respectful and honourable fashion.


----------



## drsmith (6 October 2010)

professor_frink said:


> Looks like you missed my earlier question so I'll ask again:



Farren,

Add to that the details of the so-called "bank garantee" that comes with the more expensive packages ?



> VIP COST $30,000 - ( Join Now )
> 
> * Ability to trade up to a balance of $100,000 in your own betting account.
> * Ability to trade up to a balance of $500,000 in your own CFD trading account on the Stock Market OPENING 1ST NOVEMBER
> ...


----------



## joe69 (7 October 2010)

I too got talked into making an "investment" with Commercial Securities earlier this year and, like others have found, have not had a positive experience.

Why is the 1300 number no longer in service?


----------



## Sedergal (7 October 2010)

hhralhh said:


> It seems to be that I was also one of the foolish ones. I was chased by this company in January until I signed their paper and deposited the money. I paid the $8800 for the licence plus $3000 for the trade investment. I have been monitoring the account since then and now have lost more than 50% of the funds I invested. I tried to contact the salesman many times without success. I was promised by the customer service that someone will call me but no one did. When I checked their web site, the company included reports for the past three months (those three months that I lost half of my fund). The reports indicate profit for January and March! I think I was scammed with misleading information. These reports proves how the company cheated me and others by providing false information when I compared their reports to the reports in my fund.
> Gents, I will be starting my legal action by first reporting my case to ASIC and ACCC. I encourage the others to do the same please. By doing that we will be supporting each other to stop this scam or who knows we might be able to be successful to get back our monies by legal actions.



My husband and I also lost over $10k. What is the next step for everyone getting together and taking action in an attempt to get our money back?


----------



## mark772 (7 October 2010)

yes ive been done over by sure track technologies as well happy to help in class action against these rip off barstards.joined in july and loosing money steadily not to mention the 8800 joining fee,,have spoken asic but they say its grey area of gambling,still think ats all very misleading..


----------



## joe69 (7 October 2010)

sounds like there are a few people on this thread who are in the same situation.  Is there anything we can do to try recover any of our money?  If so, what is the first step?


----------



## Coolerman (7 October 2010)

zanne40 said:


> Fair enough. Lets hear from some of you people, that accepted the "Rescue package". They have closed the offer, meaning they have some 400 odd clients, they are betting on behalf of. Obviously, if you do exist, a lot of you will be aware of this forum and as Farren has stated, some will have been burnt like us.
> 
> If you have had a good experience with Commercial Securities/RASPC, please share it with us.
> Readers should hear both sides of this debate.




Hey there Farren - or is it ..........?
I am exstatic to hear that a human being (to use the term very loosely) such as yourself is willing to stick your neck out and kick us while we are down.
I am very interested in your rescue pack. In fact I would like to invite you to present this package personally to myself and a group of investors in Darwin.
We would like to then take your self and your colleagues down to the local pub and for dinner where you will be served up a dish of our finest KICK THE .... OUT OF THE SCAMMING MOTHER .......!

PLEASE REPLY URGENTLY AS THIS OFFER IS VERY LIMITED.


----------



## tech/a (7 October 2010)

In 1976 I invested in "Platinum investments" $5k roughly around $50K in todays terms.They were into silver futures.
Needless to say I lost my $5k and recovery was hope;ess.
Id suggest yours will also be like that.

It was a valuable lesson.
*Rule 1
If you cant control it then dont do it!*

Ever since I will gain advice from others but wont let others ---control my investments.Business/Property or Trading----including my Super.

Its something I suggest everyone involved here does going forward.
Tragic everyone a terrible feeling.


----------



## joe69 (7 October 2010)

I have already kissed my money goodbye and learnt a good lesson.  Still, I would be interested in joining any action if anything can be done.


----------



## mark772 (8 October 2010)

joe69 said:


> I have already kissed my money goodbye and learnt a good lesson.  Still, I would be interested in joining any action if anything can be done.




We can send a letter of demand to the address for our membership money back because of their misleading imformation and lies and state that if this isnt met legal action will follow.


----------



## zanne40 (10 October 2010)

I am still waiting to hear from people, who have taken up the RASPC offer.
Farren stated that the books are full and that they have now withdrawn the "rescue package". If this is true, then there must be a lot of people out there, that can post something positive, about RASPC.

To date, Farren is the only pro RASPC post we have had. Would also like to hear from the old team from Commercial Securities. Like us, Farren has labelled you, SCAMMERS. What do you think about that?

Just had a look at the Shane Dye web site. http://www.shanedye.com.au
Not much info. Predominantly an add site. Strange though that RASPC doesn't feature. Think it would, him being a director and all. Well maybe they want to keep it a bit quiet. Don't want a rush of people, wanting to join, do they?

So come on punters that have had a good experience with RASPC. Lets hear from you. We might just change our minds.


----------



## Farren (10 October 2010)

Below is an actual client account summary actual account screen shot on our website with every bet we show them updated there you will notice actual bet numbers this can not be changed or it is fraud i am very sorry for those who have missed out we expect to be closed and FULL in the next few weeks so again if we are not that active here sorry as we will be busy winning people money 

Client Statement for xxxxx xxxxx (xxxx78)
01/10/2010 to 10/10/2010

toptote.com.au
Licensed Bookmaker - N.T. Racing Commission
Betting All Codes, All States, Day & Night and Full Sport Service
Direct Lines: 1800 326 632
Opening Balance: $1,990.00
Closing Balance: $2,771.19

New Accounts and Enquiries: 1800 326 632
Post: PO Box 2439 Parap 0820
Fax: +61 8 89422984
Bank Details:
Westpac BSB: 034-013 Acc: 229-870
Credit Cards also accepted

   Biller Code: 36657 
   Ref: 5024138
Telephone & Internet Banking � BPay


----------



## zanne40 (11 October 2010)

Farren, Farren. Why do you persist with propaganda. We want to hear it from the people, not scripted stuff by you.
For those of you who would like to contact "TopTote", here is the email address: support@overtheodds.com.au 
Has a familiar ring to it, huh?

Yes. "Over the odds" is back. New name. Same people. I guess it was just too lucrative, to let it go. Makes you wonder though, why they tried to camouflage their name. Over the odds assured me, they were all above board and had nothing to hide. Why the name  change guys. I bet you still keep an eye on the forum. (Not putting money on that bet though. Sorry.)

My guess is we have a lot of interested parties reading this forum, for various reasons.

Bit wet up here, at the moment Farren. Still. Your place looks nice and dry. Drove past today. Looks quite a nice place. Cost a penny or two though.
Cheers.


----------



## Farren (12 October 2010)

I have nothing to prove so again this will be my last post and guys and again sorry about the fact you were lead to believe in Santa Clause all i was doing was helping i had nothing financially to gain until i actually made you a PROFIT so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater it is irrelevant now as our offer has ceased our legal department will be contacting anyone associating us with any of these companies as it is NOT TRUE and not only slanderous but DEFAMATION and we have damages due to it already for trying to help you guys GOOD LUCK you will need it


----------



## basilio (12 October 2010)

> Re: Commercial Securities?
> I have nothing to prove so again this will be my last post and guys and again sorry about the fact you were lead to believe in Santa Clause all i was doing was helping i had nothing financially to gain until i actually made you a PROFIT so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater it is irrelevant now as our offer has ceased our legal department will be contacting anyone associating us with any of these companies as it is NOT TRUE and not only slanderous but DEFAMATION and we have damages due to it already for trying to help you guys GOOD LUCK you will need it




Walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, smells like a duck.

We really should have some duck dinner before we all end up in the pot stripped to the bone.


----------



## zanne40 (12 October 2010)

Maybe if you had been straight up with us, we would have more trust in what you say. Telling porkies, seems to become a habit.
Fact; Commercial Securities is still a Registered company.
Fact; "Paul Ellis" is still the director of Commercial Securities.
Fact; "Paul Ellis" resides very close to you. Very very close.
Fact; "Paul Ellis" made the connection with RASPC, not us.
Fact; You weren't truthfull about the directors of Racing & Sports.net
Fact; "Over the odds" has the same webpage. Just a name change.
Fact; "TopTote" is not a registered company and also an unlisted trading       name.
Fact; None of the people in your team, except you, have a shareholding in Racing & Sports.net.
Fact; We in the forum, along with many others, lost many thousands of dollars.
Fact; We will not get it back, even with a "rescue package".
Fact; We now know the danger in dealling with $2 companies.
Fact; We will do our best, as is our duty, to stop others from falling into a financial catastrohpie. Although they should, the authorities don't have the laws, to stop this sort of thing.

We do hope that people in power, read this forum and get off their backsides and do something about it. The average Aussie, works to hard for his money, to have it taken as ours was. We are not slandering anyone. We are bringing the facts to the people. The public has a right to know, so they can make an informed decision.


----------



## Farren (12 October 2010)

Maybe if you had been straight up with us, we would have more trust in what you say. Telling porkies, seems to become a habit.

Fact; Commercial Securities is still a Registered company.

*Yes it is and PAUL contacted us to help him that's how we got the idea of a rescue package *

Fact; "Paul Ellis" is still the director of Commercial Securities.
*
Yes he is*

Fact; "Paul Ellis" resides very close to you. Very very close.

*I live in Surfers Paradise Sunset Blv no where near him *

Fact; "Paul Ellis" made the connection with RASPC, not us.

*Yes he did we said we would do a rescue package for all members of all people who could prove they were scammed not just com sec  *

Fact; You weren't truthfull about the directors of Racing & Sports.net

*I am a director and 1 other person all others are shareholders not directors* 

Fact; "Over the odds" has the same webpage. Just a name change.
*
They are a white label of the biggest bookmaker in Australia that holds a major share of the market that's like saying a bank robber drives a Holden  
 they are only a bookmaker that takes bets nothing more.*

Fact; "TopTote" is not a registered company and also an unlisted trading name.

*SEE ABOVE*

Fact; None of the people in your team, except you, have a shareholding in Racing & Sports.net.

*They do but have not yet signed the documentation as they have agreements and as we have known each other for a long time that's enough we are all meeting in Melbourne for the Cup and all will be sorted then documents signed etc ps all our members are welcome to come and meet them *

Fact; We in the forum, along with many others, lost many thousands of dollars.

*And we feel very sorry that the people who sold this to you did that but why attack us we did not sell it to you all our members are MORE THAN HAPPY we are already showing 40% return this month DOCUMENTED and i am happy to prove this please send me your contact details *

Fact; We will not get it back, even with a "rescue package".

*There is no guarantee EVER in racing and all our documentation tells you this what we do is tip the odds in your favor there is no worry now as we have decided against doing them anymore i just thought i owed it to you guys to have 1 last post to answer all your facts for you  
*
Fact; We now know the danger in dealling with $2 companies.

*Yes i agree i got this today from aussie stock forums maybe they can make you money from them lol and your data is sold by them to these companies so my suggestion is WORK HARD AND SAVE forget about getting rich 

CREATE A PASSIVE INCOME THAT MAKES YOU MONEY WHILE YOU SLEEP

content was in here same old rubbish that you were sold

You are being sent this email in accordance with the Aussie Stock Forums Terms of Use. To unsubscribe from further emails please reply to this email with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' in the subject line. Please note if you elect not to receive emails your access to ASF will be restricted.*

Fact; We will do our best, as is our duty, to stop others from falling into a financial catastrohpie. Although they should, the authorities don't have the laws, to stop this sort of thing.
*
I am 100% behind you as i love this industry and if you were a member of our group you would know this good luck in your pursuits and if i can help you know where to find me you can get a message to me on our website  *

We do hope that people in power, read this forum and get off their backsides and do something about it. The average Aussie, works to hard for his money, to have it taken as ours was. We are not slandering anyone. We are bringing the facts to the people. The public has a right to know, so they can make an informed decision.


----------



## professor_frink (12 October 2010)

Farren said:


> Fact; We now know the danger in dealling with $2 companies.
> 
> *Yes i agree i got this today from aussie stock forums maybe they can make you money from them lol and your data is sold by them to these companies so my suggestion is WORK HARD AND SAVE forget about getting rich
> 
> ...



*


Sorry Farren, but that statement is absolute rubbish. This site does nothing of the kind.*


----------



## Farren (12 October 2010)

professor_frink said:


> Sorry Farren, but that statement is absolute rubbish. This site does nothing of the kind.




I joined this forum and then it sent me a forex (one of most risky trading in the world) email so how is the statement rubbish


----------



## professor_frink (12 October 2010)

Farren said:


> I joined this forum and then it sent me a forex (one of most risky trading in the world) email so how is the statement rubbish




The site doesn't sell any kind of information to 3rd parties. It's as simple as that.

From the terms of use for the site:

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/help/terms



> You agree to maintain a valid and functioning contact email address at all times and to make that email address available for Aussie Stock Forums to send you occasional email communications, some of which may be advertising.




Note the part in red. It doesn't come directly from any advertisers who we've sold members email addresses to, we pass the advertising that is given to us on to the members of the site. Big difference.

Whilst you are online Farren, you feel like answering my earlier questions yet?


----------



## Farren (12 October 2010)

professor_frink said:


> The site doesn't sell any kind of information to 3rd parties. It's as simple as that.
> 
> From the terms of use for the site:
> 
> ...





Oh ok i get it you only email people get rich quick schemes not sell there emails that's different HOW it is still promoting the same schemes you are attacking on this forum if i had my way they would all be shut down ASAP and have a board set up to make sure the real ones had an open playing field to trade on like the stock market has the ACCC that way the odd one (and we are out there) would be held accountable for there actions as at the moment it is 100% OPEN SLATHER and all you poor suckers that have lost money GAMBLING can not do anything about it and that is WRONG all these companies don't have real people (like we do) behind them and they spend so much on legals the only way to STOP this happening is for the government to make GAMBLING schemes and Punters Clubs (like us) come under there jurisdiction WE WELCOME IT 

PS FOR THE RECORD THE FOREX TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE DOESN'T COME UNDER ANY JURISDICTION READ THIS ARTICLE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forex_scam


----------



## professor_frink (12 October 2010)

Farren said:


> Oh ok i get it you only email people get rich quick schemes not sell there emails that's different HOW it is still promoting the same schemes you are attacking on this forum




Firstly, quite a few trading related products cop a fair bit of criticism on this forum. We welcome open discussion on most services(within reason).

Secondly, there is absolutely no comparison between a company that provides financial recommendations or tips, which are regulated by ASIC, and something like the product you are selling, which isn't regulated at all. At least in the case of a trading related service, there are rules, regulations and complaint mechanisms in place. When it comes to someone gambling with horses, there is nothing like this.



Farren said:


> if i had my way they would all be shut down ASAP and have a board set up to make sure the real ones had an open playing field to trade on like the stock market has the ACCC that way the odd one (and we are out there) would be held accountable for there actions as at the moment it is 100% OPEN SLATHER and all you poor suckers that have lost money GAMBLING can not do anything about it and that is WRONG all these companies don't have real people (like we do) behind them and they spend so much on legals the only way to STOP this happening is for the government to make GAMBLING schemes and Punters Clubs (like us) come under there jurisdiction WE WELCOME IT
> 
> PS FOR THE RECORD THE FOREX TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE DOESN'T COME UNDER ANY JURISDICTION READ THIS ARTICLE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forex_scam




And just for the record, any company operating in this country that wants to operate a trading related service needs to be licensed. If people are willing to deal with an overseas based company that doesn't have a presence here in Australia, then they run the same risks as they would if they were dealing with a gambling operation like your company. 

If you find a spare moment, have a close look at the ads that come through this site, ALL of them have an AFSL.

Speaking of licenses, has an AFSL shown up on your site yet Farren, or have you decided not to go ahead with the cfd trading side of your operation?

Whilst I haven't been for a look at your site this week, after it was pointed out here in this forum, which is full of angry people who have been burnt with the exact same business model as your own, in my opinion it would be wise to do something about it before some of the angry ex commercial securities customers start complaining to ASIC about your company.

cheers


----------



## zanne40 (12 October 2010)

Farren. Please explain something, without the spin.
Why do ASIC records show you and Paul Ellis, to reside at the same address?


----------



## Farren (13 October 2010)

Once again, lets be very very clear about all of this. I do not reside at the same address as Paul Ellis of Commercial Securities and I never have.

I will check ASIC to find out why they have this in their records. Mr.Ellis is with Commercial Securities, I am with www.racingandsports.net a totally transparent company with a website and credible directors and consultant/advisors, analysts.

No spin there thats the truth. We have written numerous times that we have no relationship whatsoever with Commercial Securities and all we have tried to do is assist them in launching a package to assist those who were ''hit financially'' by them, this followed an approach by Mr.Ellis.

This merry go round of innuedo and allegations against our company is somewhat damaging to us, but fortunately we are winning handsomedly for our clients so far and our conserative intention is to continue this.

Again, can I reinterate that www.racingandsports.net has nothing to do with Commercial Securities and Mr.Ellis. I categorically refute any types of spite to the contrary. Your actions in relation to that company are up to you and others who feel they have been dealt badly by Commercial Securities.

I feel terrible you have all suffered at the hands of a company which was run badly and was unable to deliver what they promised, and I find it hard to believe they could have ever returned what they promoted.

No spin there just the truth.


----------



## Farren (13 October 2010)

Further to comments regarding CFD's and stock market operations for www.racingandsports.net this is still in the hands of our legals who are checking out the information required.

As soon as I have information in relation to this I can come back to you and post this information.


----------



## professor_frink (13 October 2010)

Farren said:


> Further to comments regarding CFD's and stock market operations for RASPC this is still in the hands of our legals who are checking out the information required.
> 
> As soon as I have information in relation to this I can come back to you and post this information.




So if that's the case, then what are we to make of this comment you made earlier-



Farren said:


> i can give you half a dozen high profile investors who have taken up memberships only for the STOCK MARKET side they are not interested in the GAMBLING




So you are taking memberships for something when you still haven't finished "checking out the information required", as you put it. Considering you are also making claims like this:



Farren said:


> *I am pretty sure they would be undercover as most of the scams are being cleaned up 1 by 1 at the moment so its great for us as we dot every I and every T*




It all starts looking slightly odd.

You claim to be a company that "dots every I and every T"(even though a "T" requires no dotting whatsoever), and now when questioned on how you are able to offer any services for the stockmarket without a license, you finally admit that your legal team haven't even finished investigating whether you can actually do it!


----------



## zanne40 (13 October 2010)

Farren. Your answer to my query, only reinforces my feeling, that something is not quite right here.
As far as I'm aware, when you register a company with ASIC, you supply all the details, regarding name, birth details and address.
It would be an almost impossible coincidence, that ASIC would get your address mixed up with that of Paul Ellis, when there would be no association, on their part, between the two companies.
On the outside chance, that they made a mistake, what would be the odds of them picking Paul Ellis's address. 

I also wonder, why, in this debate, that Paul has not tried to answer allegations, as you have. We do refer to him all the time and not very kindly.
I shall watch with interest, further records regarding CS, with ASIC. I have some theories, that I'll keep to myself for now.


----------



## Farren (13 October 2010)

Zanne, not sure if thats your name, so excuse me if I haven't got that right.

To background you and others, in May I returned from working as a Director in the Philippines and other parts of Asia with iprint and seecsp and returned here to begin a Punters Club following lengthy discussions with Shane, Angus and others.

On arriving back I was introduced to Paul Ellis by my accountant and we had discussions in relations to a company he had purchased Commercial Securities my opinon was he was a honourable chap. My fellow directors kept a close eye on their business and Mr. Ellis offered the business to us.

In defence of Mr.Ellis he had taken over a business which had many problems, the area which had made me very wary was their promise of extraordinary results, far beyond anybody's wildest dreams. That was the pitch made prior to Mr.Ellis taking over the business from what I understand.

We finally after doing our due dilligence, and with our legal team doing some fairly heavy duty work decided not to go ahead with the involvement and I directed one of them to discuss this with Mr. Ellis.

The address of the new company was mismanaged by one of our legal team and the right address will be on the ASIC SITE. I must admit I was shocked to see it myself and did not know this until you advised me  I actually phoned the person from our legal side today following a shareholders 'hook up'.

Matter of fact, I wasn't aware of Mr.Ellis's address, of which I apologize for. Now while some might like to attack the credence of my information, I can categorically state the admission I am giving is honest and truthful and only a person concerned about their credibility would dodge answering this.

www.racingandsports.net has made 54% for its clients so far, since beginning three weeks, so If those burn't had taken up the 'rescue package' we offered then and recently to you, you would have made some of the money back at no additional membership fee. However we all know this is gambling and it will be a roller coaster ride. The rescue package to Mr.Ellis's business and others who been badly burnt by these scams was intended to give the racing industry tarnished by these schemes a much more credible face. 


Finally, while there have been some teething problems on the administration side as you can see. Our committment to providing our members with transparency, crediblity and reward is our utmost mission.

This I know gives you no great comfort, but email me at the site, I will call you personally, each and everyone of you to confirm what I have said before and answer questions you have. I would even be prepared to meet anyone who wanted to come and see me and chat. I am that open and available.

Kindest Regards
Farren Hotham


----------



## Joe Blow (14 October 2010)

Farren,

You have continued to violate the rules of this website in spite of having received several warnings. If you continue to do this your ASF account will be permanently suspended. 

Please note:

You *are* entitled to respond to any questions or to correct any posted information that you believe to be incorrect or misleading.
You *are not* entitled to promote your business on this website. This includes the posting of sales pitches and your URL, which you have done multiple times. As a result, your URL has now been added to our banned words list. If you wish to refer to your business, just use its name.

The rules of this website apply equally to all and we ask that they be respected. If you are unsure of our policy regarding forum spam I urge you to read through this thread: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9574


----------



## missmj (14 October 2010)

*Red Underline or sure track technologies scam*

hi Mark

my friend has also been losing every single month with sure track technologies / red underline he had the same approach as what we did and think it is the same scam or scammers behind it. what losses have you had these last 4 months so we can compare results



mark772 said:


> yes ive been done over by sure track technologies as well happy to help in class action against these rip off barstards.joined in july and loosing money steadily not to mention the 8800 joining fee,,have spoken asic but they say its grey area of gambling,still think ats all very misleading..


----------



## Farren (14 October 2010)

Can I indicate once again that racing and sports has no relationship nor does not have any knowledge of the two companies you mentioned RED UNDER LINE AND SURE TRACK TECHNOLOGIES.

Do these companies have websites ? do they have real people showing their faces ?

NO, I believe the answer would be. Though I can do a search and check this. Credibility and transparency are the main factors, giving customers/members returns, and ensuring and delivering them the best possible rewards and no false promises.


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2010)

The fuzzy warm platitudes repeated over and over must fool enough to make the whole exercise worthwhile.


----------



## identityfraud (15 October 2010)

drsmith said:


> The fuzzy warm platitudes repeated over and over must fool enough to make the whole exercise worthwhile.




Unfortunately this is probably true.

Though you will be pleased to know that I took your advice with regard to practicing my "hanging up technique" (after being most ungentlemanly) when I received a call from one of these shonks last week.

It had the desired effect. I haven't heard from them since.


----------



## zanne40 (15 October 2010)

There appears to be no connection between Suretrack Technologies and RASPC. Suretrack seems to be of a similar model, to that of Commercial Securities. The $8800 licence rings alarm bells.

Suretrack Technologies is just a trading name. It is registered with ASIC as, Red Underline Pty Ltd. It has a single Director/secretary, which would also make me wary of it.

Their website does look impressive, but websites are created to look impressive. It is not a big deal to set up a website, exactly like that and have it up on the web.

Farren is right, that it is a faceless website and company, but they fit the mold, as described by the ACCC. They all operate in the same fashion.

The lesson learned is if someone wants to bet with your money, it is for their benefit, not yours. Straight up, the "licence fee" puts them in front, and at a minor cost to them. It still smells, that they all seem to run the schemes, and except for the licence, the bookie is getting all the money. To me, that defeats the purpose of running it. Unless...................????


----------



## peterdm (16 October 2010)

As mentioned in my first post I am new to this forum but not the scam set up by these people. Is the future simply talk or is there somewhere we can congregate to get this through the courts. I have lost money as have you guys let's at least try to get it back.


----------



## PhilG (17 October 2010)

Hi there. I got conned too. Did as much backgound checking as I could on Commercial Securities, even called the Qland department of fair trade and they hadn't been flagged by them. Been following this thread for a while now. Happy to join any class action if it helps. Just got a phone call and an email from a new one that sounds similar but sports betting. apgsorts ...
Anyone heard of these guys?


----------



## zanne40 (17 October 2010)

peterdm said:


> As mentioned in my first post I am new to this forum but not the scam set up by these people. Is the future simply talk or is there somewhere we can congregate to get this through the courts. I have lost money as have you guys let's at least try to get it back.




Peterdm. This forum is not just talk. If this forum was around earlier, you and I probably wouldn't be posting here. This would have warned us off. We don't have any idea how many people have read this forum and decided against handing over their money, unless they post and tell us.

The reason these schemes flourish, is because, like us, people are duped into believing the claims made to them and there wasn't a lot to diswade them. Now there is.

At this stage, trying to get your money back, would only line the pockets of lawyers. Although it was a lot of money to us, chasing it would cost more.
We can only hope, we are doing something to break the cycle of ignorance, that sucked all of us in.


----------



## peterdm (18 October 2010)

Thanks Zanne but it shouln't be the case should it. That we just accept it and then sit back and hope people read it and don't get involved. We were treated in a criminal manner and deserve to be able to fight back.This is Australia not Nigeria. There are forces about that can take up the challenge and do what is needed. A class action would be possible with sufficient people and the costs would be shared.


----------



## zanne40 (19 October 2010)

I have been reading back over emails,at the time of the emergence of Paul Ellis. I have kept a lot of files, in case needed in the future. Although I am not quoting the emails, I have them to back up my claims. 

In line with Fair dealing clauses, I think it is in the public interest. I am aware, that some of you also received some or all of the emails. 

Farren went to great lengths, to distance himself and RASPC, from Commercial Securities.

Paul talks about his head trader setting up their new Racing and sports punters club. That was the same head trader, that lost all our money. The "Rescue Package" that Farren offered, was offered by Paul, word for word.

Much of the other spin, is pretty much the same as that told to us by Farren.
Farren says it was he who came up with the rescue package, but it was on the table before he appeared.

Farren has changed his address in ASIC, and the other director, who has never been mentioned by Farren, no longer appears as a director, but still a shareholder. Another shareholder has the same address as Paul Ellis. (Farrens previous stated address.) 

None of the team mentioned by Farren, appear in the records. Not sure what to make of all this yet. We'll have to wait and see if this high profile team makes the real media and not just the online news flashes that are reported by Farren. Anyone may submit to them sites. They don't have any credibility and have disclaimers, as to the content.


----------



## 308cc (27 October 2010)

well a bit seems to have been said while I have been away on holidays. 

Its been a few weeks now, so how is the new company going Paul opps I mean Farren. I never got the chance to take you up on your offer of a rescue package, how did it all go / is going, would love to hear from you again on this site. when replying please refrain from using your caps lock as this is considered yelling and there is no need for it.


----------



## Sean K (27 October 2010)

Has anyone actually approached ASIC or the Federal Police to have this investigated?

One of you who have some facts really need to do something about it, or close the issue, imho.


----------



## zanne40 (9 November 2010)

Kennas. All these scammers stay in business, because the laws allow them to and are able to suck people in, because the information of the dangers, was not out there. Just the way they wanted it. When I got caught, googling Commercial Securities, brought up their website. Since this thread started, now people google Commercial securities or RASPC and up comes this forum. That is why we had Farren so rattled and he is so clever, he helped our cause, by posting here.

We have very little chance of getting our money back. No matter what they call it, it is gambling. We killed Comercial Securities, but we only killed a name. I am 99% sure, that "Paul Ellis" was a fabrication. It was the same people, just changing director names, which they can do online, so ASIC doesn't have to see a real person. When Farren became the director of the "New" RASPC, he made the mistake of using the same address as "Paul Ellis". He has since changed it, after I brought it to his attention. He blamed it on others, but he used that address, because it was his. 

There is a gentleman, of Italian decent, at Surfers, who untill recently, was also a director. He remains a shareholder. In all Farrens rantings, he never mentioned this person, an I suspect that he may have more interest in this venture, than Farren. I am also sure that he will be reading this.

Queenbury Investments, Red Underline, Suretrack Technologes, all operate under the same format and have all left casualties in their wake. Check out their lifestyles and you find them all living pretty well.

We cannot expose them using the media. Channel 9 and 7 aren't interested as yet. They will be if a story breaks. News papers are out. This forum and a few other less read sites, are the only way to fight them.

Kennas, if you feel this is all a waste of time, that is your right. The only way we keep pressure on these lowlife, is to keep this forum alive.

We know already, that them and their bookies monitor this site. It is also interesting that some of the so called, unrelated companies, us the same bookie. Just imagine how much Over the Odds is making, when all the bets are placed to lose.

People, like the ACCC, will be keeping an eye on developements here. I do know that they are keeping an eye on these schemes, but we need the government to outlaw them.

Farren old buddy. I have been scanning the net for the Melbourne cup reports. Only thing that appears, is stuff posted by you. To date you haven't shown much credibility. Hope business ain't going too well. Cheers


----------



## Hound1 (10 November 2010)

Hi All, I wish I knew about this forum months ago when my husband and I were suckered into joining Commercial Securities. I asked the sales man if I could speak to someone who was currently trading and he happily gave me a number which I called! I jokingly said to the young man, I hope you haven't given me the number of your parents - little did I know that was probably exactly what he had done! Well you all know how this story ends. We were then approached by Paul Ellis who was supposedly buying this Company as the previous head trader had "died" and he was going to come in and save the business and all it's poor members. All we had to do was give him another $5000 and he would help us to recoup our losses. Well I am embarrassed to say, we did, and guess what, we promptly lost that in about 1 week! Now we are being bombarded by calls from Farren's group with another rescue package! Finally, we have learn't our lesson! Keep at it folks, if this forum can prevent more innocent people losing their hard earned money it is definitely worth it!


----------



## zanne40 (10 November 2010)

Thanks for your post Hound1. You have proven what we all knew would happen. These lowlife are ruthless and care nothing about "clients" losses.
This Farren character, belongs in gaol, but they know how to stay within the laws. Our lawmakers are too busy making useless laws about spitting in public etc.

When it gets too hot in the kitchen, Farren will disappear and a new name will pop up with a new company name, but the same person or persons, behind the scam, will still be there, filling a bank account.

I think this bookmaker, who all the different scams seem to use, needs some investigation by authorities. He is adamant that his only involement, is taking bets from the scammers, so why don't they use other bookies. And why did he try to give the impression that RASPC, was using a different bookie. Think about it. RASPC gets the licence money. Over the Odds gets the 10 grand. The punter gets screwed.

Any readers of this forum, who have decided after reading the posts, not to hand over any money. We would like to hear from you. I would hope that there are quite a few of you out there.

Also like to hear from people in the same position as Hound1, who believed "Ellis" or Farren and lost more money.

We miss you here Farren. The foot in mouth was quite entertaining. I guess that your minders finally worked out that you were adding fuel to the forum. If they thought that shutting you up, would let the forum fade away. Not going to happen. We'll keep after you and those that follow.
Have a nice day.


----------



## Sedergal (12 November 2010)

TODAY MY HUSBAND AND I COMPLETED AND POSTED OFF THE ASIC COMPLAINT FORMS WITH COPIES OF THE CONTRACTS, SOME EMAILS AND OTHER INFO. Please do the same! Let's make an attempt to re-coup our losses, or at least have Commercial Securities stopped!


----------



## Sucked In (13 November 2010)

I need to add my info to the evergrowing list of unwitting people 'sucked in' by this mob.  My husband and I joined CS by paying the licence fee of $5,800 then invested $10,000 in April this year and in 3 weeks had lost $3,000.  After emails and phone calls to 'Kate Poppy' I was assured everything was OK ' they were just going through a bad patch'.. It wasn't until the end of May and down by over $5,000 that the alarm bells had well and truly rung and we froze our a/c with Over the Odds and withdrew the balance. In June I emailed the ACCC, ASIC and then the Office of Fair Trading, to whom I submitted a complaint form with all the details.  They were of no help, and so I left it there knowing that we had probably lost our fee of $5,800 plus the $5,000 as well.  As you can imagine, we had no intention of being sucked in again (sorry Sedergal) and have just let things go.  I recently came across this forum as I googled Commercial Securities to see how their website was going (of course it wasn't!).  Those mongrels should be stopped...surely there are laws that can do this!!  From now on I am going to stick to the saying "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is"! Its just a pity we had to lose our savings to find out.


----------



## hhralhh (15 November 2010)

People,
Has anyone approached a lawyer or solicitor? May be we should do this to hear their legal view on this and whether it can be brought to court. I am sure most of us would accept to share the cost of a lawyer if it deems to be a successful case.


----------



## zanne40 (23 November 2010)

I don't see any use engaging Lawyers to try and get our money back. We could probably use the false advertising line, but even if that were proved, it would not get our money back. Farren and all his cowboys know this.
Collectively, we have lost a lot of money, but individually, the money is hardly worth chasing through our court system. It's only for the lawyers , high flyers and asylum seekers. It's not designed for the likes of us.

The only reason I keep posting is to keep this thread alive. Pissing Farren and his like off, is a consollation for the money they have pilferred from me. It's akin to fighting terrorists. If you back away, they win and flourish.

Scammers are on the increase in Australia and they flourish because unless the media gets involved, people don't know about them. The internet is the only way we have.

Commercial Securities, RASPC, Suretrack Technologies, Red Underline are the front runners, but others will get on board, because of the easy money and the unaccountability. They virtually have no overheads and just rake in our money.

Still like to hear from someone who took up Farrens offer and actually made some money.   

Still having a browse Farren? I would lay money on that. Hope busines is crap mate. You deserve to be immersed in it. The crap I mean.

Cheers


----------



## Sedergal (2 December 2010)

The ASIC can't help us. To quote; "ASIC does not recognise sports arbitrage schemes as financial products or services". 

They suggested I try the QLD Office of Fair Trading. I'll keep you posted.

Any other developments anyone?


----------



## 308cc (21 December 2010)

Come on Farren its Christmas, at least you could wish us all a merry Christmas with a quick update on racing and sports punters club / commercial securities. or have you heard of queensberry investments which run the same setup, but you wouldn't be associated with them at  all would you, just like you are not part of commercial securities and don't live at the same house as Paul Ellis. Sorry to report that there is no further update of any developments into getting some money back, but seems things (& farren) have gone quiet.

               Have a Merry Christmas all ( except those at commercial securities, hope your xmas lunch is burnt)


----------



## Vicki (21 December 2010)

Maybe you guys could start a site dedicated to former victims, like this one I was directed to after someone viewed the bill stacy thread.

http://jamiemcintyreexposed.com

Vicki







p.s. That's Henry Kaye he's photo'd with...Wonder If I could find one also including Andrew & Bill, as they were also associated.


----------



## zanne40 (21 December 2010)

Hello 308cc. All seems to have gone a bit quiet. Even Farren has stopped issuing all his online propaganda on the websites. Nothing new comming up on google. He was sprooking off about big things happening at the Melbourne cup and after it, but nothing has come of it. Really surprising, as we all believed him.

I've recently received crap from Suretrack Technologies, so they're still at it, trying to recruit suckers.

Thanks for your post Vicki. Love to splatter these mobs all over the internet, but as they know, we have to be carefull till they're proved guilty of something.
What goes round comes round, so their day will come. Scammers have a history of comming unstuck.

Only thing we can do at the moment, is annoy the crap out of all these scum and hope that we have filled their lives with Xmas gloom. They really deserve it! I could afford to lose 18,000 to these lowlife, but for a lot of people, it was life savings.

Looks like only a few of us posting now, but thats ok. We are still keeping the thread up in Google and hopefully persuading a few people to hold onto their money and not make the mistake we did.

For those who have Googled this forum, these scamsters operate under a lot of different names, but all try to sell you the same thing. The models are all the same, as are the disastrous results.

COMMERCIAL SECURITIES ; RASPC or RACINGANDSPORTS.NET ; QUEENSBURY INVESTMENTS ; SURETRACK TECHNOLOGIES ; RED UNDERLINE and probably a few more are emerging. Anything connected to betting needs scrutiny.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to all. (except the above mentioned scum)


----------



## peterdm (14 February 2011)

I have been away for a while and arrived back recently hoping to find you guys were a force of hundreds and were close to a Class Action. What happened? You're not going to let these scum get away with it are you?


----------



## zanne40 (16 February 2011)

Yes guys. Looks like the thread has gone dead. The scamsters will be really glad about that. Anyway, I like to think we made things hard for them and at least saved a few people, from getting sucked into their ripoff schemes.
RASPC doesn't have any new propaganda comming up on Google, so I take that as a good sign that business ain't too great. Still keeping an eye on things though. The Italian dude up in Surfers, who seemed to be silently steering the pirate ship, won't want to lose the treasure. I think maybe he thought bringing Farren Hotham in, might have given the scam some credibility. All Farren Hotham got was an addition to  his resume. "CEO of a Racing Scam". 
I have no doubt that they will surface under different names and change directors as it suits. Can't rely on our politicians to legislate them out of business. They have major problems trying to run the country. Maybe Farren Hotham should run for prime minister.
I think he'd fit in well with the bunch of losers we have there.
Anyway guys. Looks like we've come to an end.
Chow.


----------



## Sean K (16 February 2011)

zanne40 said:


> I have no doubt that they will surface under different names and change directors as it suits.



Keep a look out Zanne...would be good to get an update now and then. It would be very interesting to see if your investigative powers lead to them being unveiled again.


----------



## zanne40 (21 February 2011)

For those still interested, an extract from ASIC

Current Organisation Details

Name      : RACINGANDSPORTS.NET PTY LTD                             5E2483917
Name Start: 20/09/2010
Status    : Registered
Type      : AUSTRALIAN PROPRIETARY COMPANY
Class     : LIMITED BY SHARES
Subclass  : PROPRIETARY COMPANY


Registered Office

LUCIANO MENNITI UNIT 7 10 MILES STREET CLAYFIELD QLD 4011           5E2483917
Start Date: 20/09/2010


Future Registered Office

94 GORMANS HILL ROAD BATHURST NSW 2795                              027282139
Start Date: 25/10/2010  Cease Date: 25/10/2010


Principal Place of Business

94 GORMANS HILL ROAD BATHURST NSW 2795                              027282139
Start Date: 13/10/2010

Directors

FARREN HOTHAM                                                       027282139
94 GORMANS HILL ROAD BATHURST NSW 2795 
Born: 17/01/1963 - BATHURST NSW
Appointment Date: 20/09/2010



Share Structure


Note: For each class of shares issued by a proprietary company, ASIC records
the details of the top twenty members of the class (based on shareholdings).
The details of any other members holding the same number of shares as the
twentieth ranked member will also be recorded by ASIC on the database.
Where available, historical records show that a member has ceased to be
ranked amongst the top twenty members. This may, but does not necessarily
mean, that they have ceased to be a member of the company.


Class: ORD                                                          027282139
       ORDINARY SHARES                                             
Number of Shares/Interests Issued            :                95
Total Amount (if any) Paid / Taken to be Paid:                95.00
Total Amount Due and Payable                 :                 0.00


Members

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                 1            5E2483917
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
JOHN MURRAY ROSSITER 
PO BOX 7223 EAST BRISBANE QLD 4169 

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                 5            5E2483917
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
LUCIANO MENNITI 
UNIT 2 34 SUNSET BOULEVARD SURFERS PARADISE QLD 4217 

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                 5            5E2483917
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
MARIE RICHARDSON 
UNIT 2134 18-20 STUART STREET TWEED HEADS NSW 2485 

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                 5            027282139
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
FARREN HOTHAM 
94 GORMANS HILL ROAD BATHURST NSW 2795 

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                79            027282139
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
ADRIAN MARK THOMAS 
UNIT 1601 53 BAY STREET TWEED HEADS NSW 2485 



94 Gormans Hill Rd is a farm. Probably Farrens family, as he was born there.
Marie Richardson resides at the same address as Ellis, also the address that Farren swears he never lived at.
Adrian Thomas lives in the same building, an apartment building in Tweed central.
He seems to be the major shareholder.
Not a mention of the so called "team", Farren sprooked about

Menniti,s address in Clayfield seems to be where it all started. It looks like a not so up market appartment block. His address in Surfers is pretty up market though.

Anyway guys. Thought some of you might like to know this, as you have a right to.

Cheers


----------



## Facts (22 February 2011)

Queenbury Investments (Qi) is a Commercial Securities spin-off: operating similar telemarketing business and product from Suite 501 in professional office tower in Knox Shopping Centre, Victoria. Same manager as Commercial Securities, Victoria, with an unattended serviced office in Collins Street, Melbourne, to provide credibility. 

Office registered address at that of Vincent Amato, Accountants, in same South Wantirna office block as Commercial Securities' previous Victorian operations address - and opposite the current Knox Shopping Centre address.

Qi were listed on Oz Scam website.


----------



## Facts (23 February 2011)

Commercial Securities spin-off, Queenbury Investments (Qi), is advertising for telephone sales staff in local paper (Leader Press, Knox, 22 February, Classifieds) using email address of United Investments and phone number (03)9696 3608. Same phone number as Qi.


----------



## zanne40 (23 February 2011)

For those interested, this extract is regarding QI
Obviously another shonky setup.
As stated by Facts, the registered office ain't the big glossy one on the website.
Have a look on google streetview. Nothing special.

ASIC Current Extract as at Date: 03 Nov 2010 Time: 21:42:24 
Section 1274B
This extract has been prepared by the Australian Securities
& Investments Commission from information it obtained,
by using a data processor, from the national database.

If you believe that this extract contains any error or omission
please advise the A.S.I.C. promptly.

The Information Division of the Australian Securities & Investments Commission
is certified under the Australian Quality Standard AS 3901
(International Standard ISO 9001).


114 773 803 QUEENBURY PTY LTD                                       Document No

ACN (Australian Company Number): 114 773 803
Registered in: Victoria
Previous State Number: 
Registration Date: 15/06/2005
Next Review Date: 15/06/2011
Company bound by: 
Australian Business Number: 63 114 773 803


Current Organisation Details

Name      : QUEENBURY PTY LTD                                       1E1025879
Name Start: 15/06/2005
Status    : Registered
Type      : AUSTRALIAN PROPRIETARY COMPANY
Class     : LIMITED BY SHARES
Subclass  : PROPRIETARY COMPANY


Registered Office

UNIT 8B 430 BURWOOD HIGHWAY WANTIRNA SOUTH VIC 3152                 1E1025879
Start Date: 15/06/2005


Principal Place of Business

LEVEL 27 101 COLLINS STREET MELBOURNE VIC 3000                      7E2842818
Start Date: 21/04/2010

Directors

TRACEY GALLAGHER                                                    7E2842818
Born: 25/01/1977 - ECHUCA VIC
Appointment Date: 21/04/2010


Secretary

TRACEY GALLAGHER                                                    7E2842818
Born: 25/01/1977 - ECHUCA VIC
Appointment Date: 21/04/2010



Share Structure


Note: For each class of shares issued by a proprietary company, ASIC records
the details of the top twenty members of the class (based on shareholdings).
The details of any other members holding the same number of shares as the
twentieth ranked member will also be recorded by ASIC on the database.
Where available, historical records show that a member has ceased to be
ranked amongst the top twenty members. This may, but does not necessarily
mean, that they have ceased to be a member of the company.


Class: ORD                                                          1E1025879
       ORDINARY SHARES                                             
Number of Shares/Interests Issued            :                 1
Total Amount (if any) Paid / Taken to be Paid:                 1.00
Total Amount Due and Payable                 :                 0.00


Members

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                 1            7E2842818
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
TRACEY GALLAGHER


----------



## zanne40 (24 February 2011)

I had always thought that Paul Ellis may have been a ficticious name, but I was wrong. He does exist. I have his photo now. Also a photo of Marie Richardson, who resides at the same address as Paul, so one could assume that they are in a relationship.
Now Paul has, supposibly, no connection with RASPC. But! Marie is a shareholder.
So one could also assume, that the very truthfull, Farren, still has an association with Paul. 
Now just maybe, things were getting a bit hot for Paul. Suddenly Paul was gone and out of the smoke came Farren. But Paul is still there, just keeping a low profile, but by all accounts, still living the good life. That appartment would cost way more than any of us could afford. Then again I suppose we all donated to their great lifestyle.

These are pics of the lovely couple. Left Paul small because it was more fitting. If any of you live around the Tweed, you may run into them in the street. Apparently they frequent the Gold Coast airport. They do spend time in Sydney as well.

So Farren. Now they are no longer faceless.


----------



## zanne40 (24 February 2011)

Just found the reason that all RASPC's propaganda stopped on the net.

From their Twitter Page, dated back in October:

The following domain names are for sale please contact: 4sale@racingandsports.net 

RACINGANDSPORTS.INFO - Reserve $2,000 

RACINGANDSPORTS.NET - Reserve $10,000 

RACINGANDSPORTS.ORG - Reserve $2,000 

RACINGANDSPORTS.CO - Reserve $2,000 

RACINGANDSPORTS.BIZ - Reserve $2,000 

RACINGANDSPORTS.WS - Reserve $2,000 

RACINGANDSPORTSONLINE.COM - Reserve $5,000 

RACINGANDSPORTS.ASIA - Reserve $10,000 

* Discount will be given, if you purchase multiple domains. 

NOTE: Current clients, please contact your adviser for our new site and log in details. 
* For betting services we suggest www.betfair.com
* For information services we suggest www.ozhorseracing.com
* For FREE for services we suggest www.racenet.com.au 


So it appears that they are operating under another name.
Guess we did what we set out to do.
Thats cool Farren.
Now we're going to find you again, so see you soon Farren.


----------



## zanne40 (24 February 2011)

Well well. Just discovered that Farren is now running the Wellington Times, in Wellington, NSW.
Since December 2010.
Did he bale out?
Maybe they got rid of him.
I'll do another ASIC search and find out who's at the helm.


----------



## Sean K (24 February 2011)

Zanne, I hope you have that all correct.

If you do, eeeeek!

This company and Farren's reputation seem more that shot.


----------



## zanne40 (24 February 2011)

Just checked ASIC.
As at 24th Feb, everything remains the same as the Oct report.
Farren is still the director and his farm in Bathurst, is still the registered place of business.
I wonder if the Wellington Times knows all this?


----------



## lingalonga1 (16 March 2011)

Funnily enough there is a "company" called Phoenix Tipping currently recruiting salespeople on the Gold Coast. A visit to their website shows that the copyright is held by "Phoenix Tipping Pty Ltd". As it turns out a review of ASIC does not reveal any company registered in this name.  There is however a Mr Paul G Ellis trading as Phoenix Tipping (refer Australian Business Register ABN 86404853013). 

You may also wish to have a look at www.invest434u.com 

Interestingly enough Mr Ellis (who is desribed as "staff" on the 434u.com website) posted on 1 November 2010 a little promotional material for his outed buddy. You can view it here

www.434u.com/v3/group/raspc-434u/fo...ts-net-punters-club-and-the-running-of-the-1/

You will also find his buddy on 434u.com. Google 434u and hotham.

same flies on the same turd


----------



## zanne40 (16 March 2011)

Thanks for adding that info lingalonga1. Yes they all belong to the private networking site "434U". That was how I got there photos.
Yes folks, Ellis is back at it. PHOENIX TIPPING. Remember that name.
The website looks pretty impressive, like the others did.
It gives the usual spin, how it is a big investment company, but its listing contradicts that.



View current ABN details 
ABN: 86 404 853 013 

Last modified: 08 Feb 2011 

ABN status                         From                  To 
Active                          29 Oct 2003           (current) 

Entity names                       From                  To 
ELLIS, PAUL G                   29 Oct 2003           (current) 

Entity type 
Individual/Sole Trader 

GST registration status         Registered            Cancelled 
                                07 Feb 2011  

Main business locations From To 
NSW 2485                        01 Feb 2011           (current) 
NSW 2779                        29 Oct 2003           01 Feb 2011 

Trading name(s)                   From                    To 
PHOENIX TIPPING                 01 Feb 2011           (current), 

Not much in ASIC yet, but we will monitor that with interest Paul.
I would lay odds Paul, that you and Farren still monitor this thread.
We know you are running a small newspaper Farren. Have to wait and see where you fit into the new "business". 
No mention of Shane Dai or the others. Or the "Secret Trader"

They are using the net trick they used before. Flooding the net with reports to try and keep themselves in the first pages of google.
Sorry Paul. People need to know your history. The net can work for you an also against you.
PHOENIX TIPPING is a betting scheme, not and investment scheme.
Those of you applying for positions with this company. DO YOUR RESEARCH.
It may be called PHOENIX TIPPING now, but it is still COMMERCIAL SECURITIES.


----------



## lingalonga1 (17 March 2011)

Hi Zanne40

I like your work.

Perhaps we shouldn't overlook the fact that Mr Ellis is the director / secretary of 434u.


----------



## zanne40 (18 March 2011)

Any new punters that have been contacted by PHOENIX TIPPING, (or one of the other gambling schemes) and have found this thread, while researching them.
Check this site out.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/27/2610216.htm

This pretty much explains all about these scams and how they don't work.


----------



## aztroboy (8 April 2011)

I recently received a cold call from Queenbury Investments.  Short statement of facts and then my interpretation.

My experience:
My initial google searches bought up a forum discussion QI's relationship with previous questionable companies and alleged scams.  When QI rang again I said I wasn't interested, was cautious about this being a real legitimate program and didn't really have the money.  The guy on the phone then offered a low $1000 entry offer and gave me a user id and password to verify the trades they do at a website kingofbetting.com  The guy on the phone wanted to use this website as proof that real trades take place.  Furthermore, I asked about their place of trading in Melbourne.  He initially said yes this is where they operate from.  I asked if I walked down would I be able to meet anyone and see the place, he said no because they have legal documents and lots of money in there. Lastly, a second google search did not bring up any websites that showed QI in a negative light - many strange blog-like approval stories for QI though.  At the bottom of the google search page it stated that "In response to a legal request submitted to Google, we have removed 1 result(s)..".

My interpretation:  
Of all the grey possibilities, when he said "I shouldn't be doing this but I'll give you a login + password at kingofbetting.com" I was pretty certain he'd shown his hand.  This website has no contact details, authentication, or government registration of any sort at all.  Yet this was offered as proof of a completely separate and independent website of their legitimate nature.  The other links at kingofbetting redirect you to other websites. 

Make up your own decision.  Mine (after being burnt in the past by similarly legit looking places) is to totally avoid them.  My previous experience and search results 'disappearing' is why I wanted to get this on a forum somewhere for other people to read.




Nevyn said:


> Thank you for the advice contained within this forum.  I myself received a cold call a couple of weeks ago from Queenbury Investments.  From the posts here the approach offered by QI sounds exactly like the others listed here.  Even got myself a lovely, very well done brochure showing how I could make around $74,000 over 10 months from a $10,000 investment.  I must admit that I foolishly thought this could have been a genuine offer but after talking it over with a friend came to the conclusion that it seemed to good to be true, and thus thought it wise to do a bit of research first.
> 
> I even received a phone call from the manager yesterday to confirm my interest.  When I told him I could not afford the $10,000 he told me I could start for as little as $1,000.  I told him that I would need a few weeks to get that together.  He then told me that for them to manage this for three years there would be a fee of $9.400.  There was no mention of this in the brochure.  Told him I wouldn't be able to come up with this sort of money that quickly.  He told me they were going public and there were only some 200 places available.  When I said I would have to decline he said he could do me a deal and get me in for $5,500 and said that with tax time coming up it would be a good time for me to consider investing my refund.
> 
> ...


----------



## zanne40 (9 April 2011)

Great post Aztroboy. Its good to see the message is getting out there. Thats what we're all about now.

I got cold called a few days ago, from a mob called SECURED TRADING. 
I had not heard of them, but looks like they've been  operating for a few years.
As soon as the caller realised that I was not another gullable prospect, he quickly hung up.
Research shows that it is the same model used by Paul Ellis's Phoenix Tipping/RASPC/CS.
Every ripoff merchant in the country, seems to be in on it.

This one is fronted by another lone bandit, one ADAM TAYLOR.
I say fronted because one thing these scams have in common, is that they regularly change company details, just as COMMERCIAL SECURITIES has been doing.
They also are involved in IT, which explains the glossy websites.

SECURED TRADING is using the ABN of the company below.

ASIC Current Extract as at Date: 09 Apr 2011 Time: 15:25:16 
Section 1274B
This extract has been prepared by the Australian Securities
& Investments Commission from information it obtained,
by using a data processor, from the national database.

If you believe that this extract contains any error or omission
please advise the A.S.I.C. promptly.

The Information Division of the Australian Securities & Investments Commission
is certified under the Australian Quality Standard AS 3901
(International Standard ISO 9001).


134 568 979 INTERNATIONAL ANALYSIS SOFTWARE PTY LTD                 Document No

ACN (Australian Company Number): 134 568 979
Registered in: Queensland
Previous State Number: 
Registration Date: 10/12/2008
Next Review Date: 10/12/2011
Company bound by: 
Australian Business Number: 36 134 568 979


Current Organisation Details

Name      : INTERNATIONAL ANALYSIS SOFTWARE PTY LTD                 5E2023314
Name Start: 10/12/2008
Status    : Registered
Type      : AUSTRALIAN PROPRIETARY COMPANY
Class     : LIMITED BY SHARES
Subclass  : PROPRIETARY COMPANY


Registered Office

UNIT SUTIE12 5-18 KILROE STREET MILTON QLD 4064                     7E2810369
Start Date: 13/04/2010


Principal Place of Business

UNIT SUTIE12 5-18 KILROE STREET MILTON QLD 4064                     7E2810369
Start Date: 15/03/2010

Directors

ADAM TAYLOR                                                         7E2810369
UNIT 1241 56 SCARBOROUGH STREET SOUTHPORT QLD 4215 
Born: 03/05/1985 - ELIZABETH SA
Appointment Date: 15/03/2010


Secretary

ADAM TAYLOR                                                         7E2810369
UNIT 1241 56 SCARBOROUGH STREET SOUTHPORT QLD 4215 
Born: 03/05/1985 - ELIZABETH SA
Appointment Date: 15/03/2010



Share Structure


Note: For each class of shares issued by a proprietary company, ASIC records
the details of the top twenty members of the class (based on shareholdings).
The details of any other members holding the same number of shares as the
twentieth ranked member will also be recorded by ASIC on the database.
Where available, historical records show that a member has ceased to be
ranked amongst the top twenty members. This may, but does not necessarily
mean, that they have ceased to be a member of the company.


Class: ORD                                                          5E2023314
       ORDINARY SHARES                                             
Number of Shares/Interests Issued            :                 2
Total Amount (if any) Paid / Taken to be Paid:                 2.00
Total Amount Due and Payable                 :                 0.00


Members

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                 2            7E2810369
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
ADAM TAYLOR 
UNIT 1241 56 SCARBOROUGH STREET SOUTHPORT QLD 4215 



Documents Received

Form Type  Date Received  Date Processed  No. Pages  Effective Date


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

484          06/04/2010   06/04/2010          3      06/04/2010     7E2810369
  484  Change to Company Details                                               
 484B  Change of Registered Address                                            
 484C  Change of Principal Place of Business (Address)                         
 484E  Appointment or Cessation of a Company Officeholder                      
 484N  Changes to (Members) Share Holdings                                     

484          30/11/2009   30/11/2009          3      30/11/2009     7E2572864
  484  Change to Company Details                                               
 484E  Appointment or Cessation of a Company Officeholder                      
 484N  Changes to (Members) Share Holdings                                     

484          21/03/2009   21/03/2009          2      21/03/2009     7E2096893
  484  Change to Company Details                                               
 484B  Change of Registered Address                                            
 484C  Change of Principal Place of Business (Address)                         

201          10/12/2008   10/12/2008          3      10/12/2008     5E2023314
 201C  Application For Registration as a Proprietary Company                   

Note: Where the expression "Unknown" is shown, the precise date
may be available from records taken over on 1 january 1991 and
held by the ASIC in paper or microfiche.


Contact Address for ASIC use only
---------------------------------
Section 146A of the Corporations Act 2001 states:'A contact address is the address to which communications and notices are sent from ASIC to the company.'

PO BOX 46 ETTALONG BEACH NSW 2257 
Start Date: 21/03/2009


                             *** End of Extract ***

Note the SECURED TRADING passes itself off as a large business, but this one is another 2 dollar company, a trait they all have.
Had a look on street view and like PAUL ELLIS, ADAM TAYLOR lives in a really upmarket apartment building. It's a very lucrative business, as long as they can get people to part with their hard earned.

I still have this nagging feeling that there are some MR BIGS, in the background, pulling the strings. We all know some of the high profile names that keep popping up, where scamming is concerned.

Like to hear from any telemarlketers that have been duped into working for one of these operators.

Also have to mention that SECURED TRADING, had a post removed from the OZRIPOFF site, so they will try the same here.

Farren Hotham seems to have gone really quiet down there on his little Newspaper, but we'll keep an eye on him. Hope the papers going ok Farren. Bit more respectable line of work.


----------



## zanne40 (10 April 2011)

COMMERCIAL SECURITIES is back.
In checking out the PHOENIX TIPPING ABN, I am led back to CS
PHOENIX TIPPING is the new trading name, since the demise of RASPC.
FARREN HOTHAM is no longer the director.
You guessed it.
Our old friend PAUL G ELLIS, is once again the director and sole trader.
Below is the new status of COMMERCIAL SECURITIES.

064 042 048 COMMERCIAL SECURITIES PTY LTD                           Document No

ACN (Australian Company Number): 064 042 048
Registered in: Queensland
Previous State Number: 
Registration Date: 23/03/1994
Next Review Date: 23/03/2012
Company bound by: 
Australian Business Number: 18 064 042 048


Current Organisation Details

Name      : COMMERCIAL SECURITIES PTY LTD                           7E2257847
Name Start: 22/06/2009
Status    : Registered
Type      : AUSTRALIAN PROPRIETARY COMPANY
Class     : LIMITED BY SHARES
Subclass  : PROPRIETARY COMPANY


Registered Office

UNIT 2134 18-20 STUART STREET TWEED HEADS NSW 2485                  027309019
Start Date: 18/11/2010


Principal Place of Business

LEVEL 21 300 QUEEN STREET BRISBANE QLD 4000                         7E2258874
Start Date: 22/06/2009

Directors

PAUL GRAEME ELLIS                                                   1F0287493
UNIT 2134 18-20 STUART STREET TWEED HEADS NSW 2485 
Born: 19/11/1971 - SYDNEY NSW
Appointment Date: 19/07/2010


Secretary

PAUL GRAEME ELLIS                                                   1F0287493
UNIT 2134 18-20 STUART STREET TWEED HEADS NSW 2485 
Born: 19/11/1971 - SYDNEY NSW
Appointment Date: 19/07/2010



Share Structure


Note: For each class of shares issued by a proprietary company, ASIC records
the details of the top twenty members of the class (based on shareholdings).
The details of any other members holding the same number of shares as the
twentieth ranked member will also be recorded by ASIC on the database.
Where available, historical records show that a member has ceased to be
ranked amongst the top twenty members. This may, but does not necessarily
mean, that they have ceased to be a member of the company.


Class: ORD                                                          06404204F
       ORDINARY                                                     (AR 1995)
Number of Shares/Interests Issued            :                 6
Total Amount (if any) Paid / Taken to be Paid:                 6.00
Total Amount Due and Payable                 :                 0.00


Members

Class            : ORD       No. Held:                 6            027309019
Beneficially Held: YES       Paid    : FULLY                       
PAUL GRAEME ELLIS 
UNIT 2134 18-20 STUART STREET TWEED HEADS NSW 2485 


Note also that the Brisbane place of business, comes up as:
Amg Universal Super 
Address: Level 21 300 Queen St, Brisbane, QLD, 4000

My god Paul. You are more stupid than Farren.


----------



## parisbound (7 May 2011)

well thank you so much everyone for putting this info on site . I have been called and given the same spiel as so many here  you have we got a deal for you.
 all sounded legit with some half baked answers to serious questionsBUT the deal was just too good to be true so i spent afew hrs searching and BINGO.
 this thread may well have saved me 10k thank you everyone well done 
 One wonders what sort of people these folk are that could rip you off without a problem or a care at all . they really are low life scum.
well queenbury will not be getting any of my money thanks to this forum 





zanne40 said:


> COMMERCIAL SECURITIES is back.
> In checking out the PHOENIX TIPPING ABN, I am led back to CS
> PHOENIX TIPPING is the new trading name, since the demise of RASPC.
> FARREN HOTHAM is no longer the director.
> ...


----------



## 308cc (18 May 2011)

Just had a phone call from a company that had been given my phone number because i was one of about 2000 people who had been burnt by commercial securities, Who are offering a "RESCUE PACKAGE" I thought this sounds very similar to something i have heard before, all i have to do is outlay $100 and they will set up a trading account, But it gets better, when questioned why, i got no real good answer, but was told that there system worked and i would make money, Now for the killer SHANE DYE is one of their traders and i would be flown to Melbourne to met him and the other traders, plus the CEO of the company would Skype me for a 1 on 1 chat. Unfortunately the young lady on the phone had never heard of Farren Hotham or Paul Ellis, so i suggested she look up scum in the dictionary and their photo's would be there and hung up


----------



## zanne40 (25 May 2011)

Yes 308c. She rang me today. New Player. INVEST434U. Main shareholder is a deregistered company. Director Is a Bookie. Will post details later.
Same deal as you. She rang me on a mobile and of course I saved it.
She didn't know Farren or Paul Ellis. 434U is the social networking site run by Ellis of which Farren is also a member. You can only join if you are nominated by a member.
They are interested in getting our money back. Like a bookie does that sort of thing.
Where did she get my name? She wasn't sure. Strangely the director stays in a high rise, not far from Ellis, in Tweed Heads. Possible they swap notes. What about that Paul.
He has a rescue package like you had. And Farren had. Scum sort of hangs round the sewer, huh?
Plan to ring her back and let her know what shes involved in. I doubt she knows. Just happy to have a job.


----------



## wazgd (30 May 2011)

Regrettably I am one of the suckers who invested cash ($5,800 in September 2009 ) with these fraudsters, and am so embarrassed by my gullibility I haven't had the balls to tell anyone I know. As already stated, it is a complete sham, and unsurprising that after receiving numerous calls from them before transferring cash that its impossible to get through to anyone at the office afterwards. I've often wondered if it's the same guy putting on different accents and voices relating to the people i've managed to speak to there, as I can't beleive so many people would be willing participants in such a fraud.

There's no point referring them to ASIC as they don't operate on stock markets or the like, and my request to the Qld Office of Fair Trading was met with a pamphlet outlining the perils of investing with sports betting agencies.

Has anyone had any luck with legal action? I'd really like to take them to the small claims tribunal but think it would be a complete waste of time and money.


----------



## Punter46 (31 May 2011)

hi, I am new to this forum and was very interested to read the post below showing that a profit of $2,330 was claimed for March 2010, because I checked my account and there actually was a loss of 16.27% during that Month.

I am quite interested to receive any evidence of the information that the promoters used in relation to the profits that were achieved, as this may be proof of fraud.





RedFlagMeister said:


> I too am currently being woo-ed by a lady called Natalie Hall representing Commercial Securities. She wants $8800 from me up-front for a 3-year membership, and recommended I invest a minimum of $1,000 into my "fully managed trading acount", with a view to "top it up" when I could afford to.
> 
> I initially received a glossy brochure after a cold call, and then a follow-up call approx 1 week later. I had read the paperwork and formed a list of questions to ask in the next call. She smoothly rattled off answers to all the obvious questions (red flag #1) and promised to send me the most recent results, as I highlighted to her that the results in the brochure were nearly 12 months old (red flag #2).
> 
> ...


----------



## dsxpc (3 June 2011)

I had been with them but they scammed me out of approx $8500, I had my suspicions before hand but decided to investigate the company quite far before I decided to do anything with them, and I still wasn't able find anything that would deem them as a scamming company, no forums were found etc. but did find on ASIC that they had their name changed at least five times in about 2 years, found that they had updated their company profile several times in a year, etc. I actually accused them of being a scam and they told me that they weren't and assured me, but I still wasn't quite convinced, but as I needed money I decided that 'what the heck' and went with them, now I'm out of pocket and still paying for my mistake!  Got a loan from the bank to go for this investment.  Now I'm at a lost and would like to see if there is a way to get my money back, but unfortunately I don't think this will be possible I have noticed on the ASIC site that the company has had a notification of Discharge at least 5 of these have been listed, as of the 8th month of last year (2010).  So I'm quite certain that this will cannot be done.

Cheers.

On a side note: Has anyone heard of Secured Trading?  I have recieved a couple of calls from a "trainee" called Courtney, but I have my previous experience with Commercial Securities FRESH in mind, so I'm not exactly game, also this company has offered a "finance" section, you pay a 'deposit' and they do the rest.  Has anyone heard of them?  Cheerio.


----------



## zanne40 (5 June 2011)

DSWXPC. Stay well clear of all  of them. SECURED TRADING is an new name on the block. Same players. Theyr all $2 companies, not international companies as they claim.
PHOENIX TIPPING is one we have to smash. Our old nemisis, PAUL ELLIS, of COMMERCIAL SECURITIES fame. The MAREE referred to, is his live in girlfriend. She's a part of these scams and they both live the high life off their ill gotten gains.

Paul loves to read this forum, don't you Paul. How's the Whitsundays treating you. Bit of a move from your scam den in Tweed Heads. Wonder if Maries new employers, know she's tied up in your cons. May have to drop them an email. Then maybe they're involved. Won't be the first Realtors to be playing on the bad side.

PHOENIX TIPPING
SECURED TRADING
COMMERCIAL SECURITIES
QUEENSBURY INVESTMENTS
RED UNDERLINE
INVEST 434U
SURETRACK TECHNOLOGIES
FARREN HOTHAM
PAUL ELLIS
MARIE RICHARDSON

All names to be wary of. All thrive from ripping off Aussie Battlers.
In a word SCUM


----------



## dsxpc (7 June 2011)

Just at a thought as anyone heard of Australian Home Based Business?

I know now all too late about the scam the has been played by Commercial Securities, and am now considering telling Secured Trading to take a hike as well.  Reasoning: They have 'promised' to call me at a 'designated' time/day and have not done so (I hate not being called back), sounded very interesting but not so sure now, I had been contacted by the above mentioned company (AHBB) and had found them to a SAFER as they allow you see them making money in front of you, but still not quite convinced!  I think since CS has duped me, I'm not willing to trust any of these companies as much as I would like to anymore.

I have had enough of these guys trying to scam people, I'm looking at contacting the Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC) regarding this matter, to see what I/they can do regarding this matter, I had been promised so much but have NOTHING to show, and YES zanne40 I am an Aussie Battler I earn very very little and was convinced this would help me increase my income to allow me to get a house and pay my bills, but now I have a bill that I didn't want!  Oh well.  I'll give them a ring and see how I go.

Cheerio.


----------



## zanne40 (7 June 2011)

Get wise Pal. As stated a few times in this forum. If it looks too good to be true then it probably is. These con artists, ain't racing experts, they are IT experts. They use their computer skills, to sell you a product that just ain't real. They also stay within the law, as it stands. Just. They show various places of business to impress and give credibility. In reality, they can operate from the lounge room or the toilet.

If you had the knowhow, you could create their flashy website and collect some cash, till things get a little hot, then change a few names, switch a few people around and be back in business. Con men and women, don't have any concience. They know they are scum. It just doesn't affect them.

HBBA comes up in ASIC as, Home Based Business Association and this mob that you mention, have a  web page that  looks like a beatup. They don't show an ABN. That may be because they don't have one. I may just send an email to HBBA. Let them take it up.

Accept that you ain't going to get rich with internet schemes. People do get rich. The one's taking your money. Just believe in Karma. What goes round. Comes round. Someone will lose it and POW! They will no longer need money. Nice thought, ain't it Paul?


----------



## mroz (26 June 2011)

UNLESS SOMEBODY WILL GIVE YOU A FREE TRIAL OF THERE SERVICE DON'T TOUCH IT WITH A BARGE POLE AND I MEAN A 30 DAY TRIAL "TRY BEFORE YOU BUY" AS IF IT SOUNDS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE NORMALLY IT IS THERE ARE A FEW OUT THERE WITH LIMITED MEMBERSHIP THAT ARE OK 





zanne40 said:


> Get wise Pal. As stated a few times in this forum. If it looks too good to be true then it probably is. These con artists, ain't racing experts, they are IT experts. They use their computer skills, to sell you a product that just ain't real. They also stay within the law, as it stands. Just. They show various places of business to impress and give credibility. In reality, they can operate from the lounge room or the toilet.
> 
> If you had the knowhow, you could create their flashy website and collect some cash, till things get a little hot, then change a few names, switch a few people around and be back in business. Con men and women, don't have any concience. They know they are scum. It just doesn't affect them.
> 
> ...


----------



## zanne40 (25 September 2011)

This is the same Paul Ellis from Commercial Securities.
He now wishes to let everyone know that people are telling lies about him.
Maybe Paul, you and your female partner, should get real jobs and stop ripping off punters.
Changing company names doesn't get rid of the smell.

From Paul:
(Quote from Google)
 I have 10 sites that have been removed through legal proceedings for deformation and they still remain on google  Report abuse   

  security434u 
Level 1
3/25/10  
To help us find trends and for faster troubleshooting, please provide the following --

Site(s) URL:
Operating System (ex. Windows XP, Mac OSX):
Browser (ex. Firefox 3.5, IE 8):

Issue details:
I act for Robert Tidy and 434u Corporation (Australia) Pty Ltd. 


Our client has instructed us that you have extensively published false, misleading, malicious and defamatory material across the internet at various sites (the Offending Material). In addition to being highly defamatory, the publication of the Offending Material constitutes the tort of Injurious Falsehood and is being undertaken with the sole intention of causing loss and damage to my clients. As you are well aware, the statements and publications contained in the Offending Material are utterly without basis in fact. 


The publication of the Offending Material has already caused loss and damage to my client and related entities, and will continue to do so unless the offending material is immediately removed and deleted from all locations in which it is published and displayed. We are in the process of contacting all sources we are able to identify and strongly suggest that you take immediate and decisive action yourself to remove all instances of the Offending Material.


We require that you immediately undertake to remove all of the Offending Material and that you confirm by direct response when you have done so. 


My client is taking this matter extremely seriously and will take all necessary steps to hold you accountable for the loss and damage that your conduct has caused and will continue to cause whilst the Offending Material is being published and displayed. We reserve our clients rights against you in all respects and will instruct lawyers in Virginia, USA to pursue you directly should we not receive a satisfactory response to this demand. 




 google = when scam 434u etc typed in still has there even though been deleted 
http://scam434u.livejournal.com/
http://434uscam.blog.com/2010/03/05/434u_scam/#comments
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11431168
http://scam434u.blogspot.com/
http://434uscam.blogspot.com/2010/01/434u-is-scam.html
http://434u.blog.com/
http://434u-scam.blogspot.com/2010/03/mr-434u-aka-bigdaddy-mr-rob-tidy-has.html
http://lawrenceconnor.wordpress.com/434uscam/
http://www.boardtracker.com/search/?q=434u
http://434u.wordpress.com/2010/03/

The above sites have all been approached by my legal team and have had the content removed, but when users google 434uscam the above URLs are still listed as headings without any content on them when clicked. This has cost me loss of business and earnings from investors when searching my company 434u.com. Please remove these listings immediately.

Kind regards

Mr Paul Ellis
Head of On-line Security
434u.com Corporation (Australia)Pty Ltd
http://www.434u.com/
Mobile: 0424 326 962
Skype: paul-ellis434u.com


----------



## zanne40 (25 September 2011)

Some interesting reading here:
http://http://scam434u.blogspot.com/

434U, the private social networking site that all these scammers seem to belong to, has been sold.
Reading the above link will show you why it has been snapped up.
Seems Paul Ellis is using people to aquire a fortune and live a life of luxury in the Whitsundays.

But he ain't retiring. He, presumably with other silent partners, has started
"NEW TRIBEZ", a similar setup, which is already pulling in advertising money and will make heaps more as he cons more people to join.

You've got to hand it to him. He knows how to use people to get rich.
Read the link. It's interesting.


----------



## AubreyThompson (26 September 2011)

Colonel Flagg said:


> I received a call today following up, but when I said I thought it looked like a scam, she got all defensive and threatened to sue me !!!




I guess he is trying a reverse psychology to you, he's defensive so that it will not be obvious that what he offer is really a scam. This people tries to fool others because there are some people who let them do that.


----------



## stardog (30 September 2011)

I post in hope this becomes a top google response.

The scum: ADVANCED TRADING STRATEGIES

see http://www.advancedtradingstrategies.com.au/

ACN is reported as 132 862 330

That ACN is registered to DBC CORPORATION PTY LTD

I have not been foolish enough to invest, but this is clearly another dodgy ponzi scheme.  I got a fair few very poorly constructed documents out of them, one of which mentioned the KING OF BETTING website.  So possibly linked to the others around here.

I would be very interested to hear if others have heard of this mob.  I lodged an ASIC complaint but am not confident anything will be done.


----------



## zanne40 (29 January 2012)

It looks like this thread has gone dead, but maybe there are still some that end up here after a google search. Just an update on our Paul Ellis. It seems that the Phoenix Tipping site has expired on Jan 3 and has not been renewed. This thread would have to take a bow for that. This is how we got the word out there and probably saved a lot of people, a lot of money.

But people like Paul, don't disappear. He will be back out there, trying to push another scam. His kind don't believe in the "honest days work". He ripped me off for $18000, so I have personal reasons to pursue him.
When I find his latest scam, I will post it here. Any of the original posters that find anything, please post it. Can't let him think we have lost interest in his exploits.

I would put money on Paul checking here regularly, to see if there are any more posts. Only I wouldn't put money on with him. So Paul, some of the guys have moved on. I'm still on your case.


----------



## zanne40 (29 January 2012)

*Re: Commercial Securities,Paul Ellis*

Paul Ellis is still in the Witsundays, trying to flog off his new Social Networking site. It seems he has married his former partner in crime, Marie Richardson, now referred to as , Marie Ellis. She is one of the 4 members. Plus Paul and 2 others, so it doesn't appear to be taking off.

Its called "NEWTRIBEZ". Apart from the advertising, I don't know what his angle is. I'll keep digging though. He has to have another scam going. It's how he lives the good life.


----------



## 308cc (18 February 2012)

I'm still here, only checking every month or so. Have been wondering what happened to farren hotham & his racing and sports punters club thingy & if Shane dye was really involved. Everyone that has posted in the past has done a great job & as Zanne40 has said we have all saved someone else from being scammed by the likes of Paul Ellis & his new bride (which their parents must be so proud of them). Keep up the good work Zanne40 & i cannot wait for the day that I cross paths with Mr Ellis


----------



## zanne40 (9 April 2012)

For those still interested, Our friend Paul Ellis, was trying to raise sponsors, to the tune of $50000, to run a supposed Music festival at the Whitsundays, in Sept. I am happy to report that at closing, he had $25 in pledges, from 2 people, I assume where friends.
So I guess the show won't ever happen. Just as well. He advertised that Barnsie was already signed up. Strangely Barnsies manager knew nothing about it.
I guess Pauls running out of options and may have to get a real job.

By the way. I did link his website to this forum
http://www.pozible.com/index.php/archive/index/4656/description/0/0


----------



## Concernedgf (17 May 2013)

This thread has gone a bit dead and is a few years old but if anyone is searching or comes across it here is some new details

Oxford data services pty ltd. same scam with the horse betting. Through asic we see that the director is one andrew crinis. What is interesting that when doing some behind the scenes searching we find that a travis burch is the web host of the oxford data service scam page. Now when you search Travis Burch you find that he is connected to an investigate a scam page called phoenix global. Ring any bells?? Phoneix tipping above.  When you call you get through to a Zoei Keong. Again listed above in relation to this scam. And of course the email contact is the one and only Michael Featherstone, mick.  

They are all one and the same and all in it together. Youd be shocked to see what we have dug up tonight!


----------



## DJG (18 May 2013)

If everyone keeps getting cold calls (from any past, present or future) potential scam just keep saying that the brochure hasn't arrived. When they say that they sent out another and call a week later, 'it must of got lost in the mail' - see how long you can piss them off for I suppose. 
After that, go to every cooking, car and what not magazine and brochures and sign up there name and business address so eventually they're getting random content everyday and filling the mailbox up with useless magazines.


----------



## zanne40 (18 May 2013)

DJG said:


> After that, go to every cooking, car and what not magazine and brochures and sign up there name and business address so eventually they're getting random content everyday and filling the mailbox up with useless magazines.




I quite like this idea. Give them some of their owncrap back.


----------



## zanne40 (18 May 2013)

Concernedgf said:


> Oxford data services pty ltd. same scam with the horse betting.
> They are all one and the same and all in it together. Youd be shocked to see what we have dug up tonight!




This thread has been a somewhat dead for a while. It seems to be the same people behind all these ripoffs. They just keep using new faces up front. Well at least new names. The authorities don't seem to be too interested in them, because they are gambling schemes.

This forum can have some power though, as we saw when Farram Hotham tried to get it up when we killed off Paul Ellis. I was trying to keep it going, so that it had prominance on Google, when people were looking for info. I'll never see my money again, so I figure, I've paid for the right pursue this scum.

Keep posting names, so that Google picks up on them when others are searching for info.


----------



## zanne40 (18 May 2013)

Concernedgf said:


> Now when you search Travis Burch you find that he is connected to an investigate a scam page called phoenix global.




Just had a look at Phoenix Global. Why am I not surprised, that the head office, is just a house in the suburbs. No business advertising outside. High fence right around, which suggests no shopfront. Just phones and computers.

Anything that has roots on the Gold Coast, would have to be immediately suspect. It's like a magnet for scum.


----------



## zanne40 (18 May 2013)

This list of arbitrage scams, aquired from a scam site.

* Kirkberry Pty Ltd http://www.kirkberry.com.au
 * Draven Group http://www.dravengroup.com
 * SportsSureWin http://sportsurewin.blogspot.com/
 * ArbitrageUnion http://arbitrageunion.blogspot.com/
 * ProActivtrader http://proactivtrader.co.uk
 * STS http://proactivtrader.com/
 * GoldNuggetInvest http://goldnuggetinvest.com
 [GNI has now defaulted on clients funds]

* There is now an outfit calling themselves NewGNI
 - same scam, probably the same people running it! http://newgni.com

* DT Platform http://dtplatform.com
 * MGM Sports http://mgmsports.net.au/
 * GSI Global Sports Investment http://globalinvest.com.au/
 * Global Success Trader http://globalsuccesstrader.com.au/
 * XFT Sniper http://www.xft-sniper.com/
 * Baranstone http://www.baranstone.com and http://www.baranstone.co.uk
 * TradeSmart Technologies http://www.tradesmarttechnologies.com
 * Global Arbtraders http://www.globalarbtraders.com
 * WTS http://www.wtsystems.com.au or http://www.wtsinvestments.com.au
 * Rhodes Peninsular Investments http://www.rhodespi.com.au
 * Oz Future http://www.ozfuture.com.au
 * Spectre Trading http://www.spectretrading.com.au
 * Spectre holdings http://spectreholdings.com.au
 * Blue Point Trading http://bluepointtrading.com.au
 * Cohen Strachan Investments CSI http://www.csiarbitrage.com.au
 * AusSoft http://www.aussoft.net.au
 * Globalsoft http://www.globalsofttechnologies.com
 * Reevera http://www.reevera.com.au
 * St Gallens Investments http://www.stgallens.com.au
 * Suncity Equities and Investments http://www.suncityei.com
 * Forbes International Trading http://www.forbestrading.com
 * Pro arb Traders http://proarbtraders.net
 * AFL Arbs http://www.aflarbs.com
 * Standford & Associates http://standfordassociates.com
 * Kinsealy Software http://www.kinsealy.com
 * 247-Web.com http://www.247-web.com
 * Sort Traders http://www.sorttraders.com
 * X Software Solutions http://www.xsoftwaresolutions.com
 * Profit From Differences http://www.profitfromdifferences.com
 * Morgan Kemp http://www.morgankemp.com.au/


----------



## DJG (19 May 2013)

zanne40 said:


> I quite like this idea. Give them some of their owncrap back.




You'd start getting pretty pissed off if the posty can't deliver the mail because your mailbox is full of crap and rewards programs.

Also, why is it that there tends to be lots of betting or investing scams coming out of the Gold Coast?


----------



## Caulfield (10 October 2013)

Here's another one to watch out for:

PDF Group Pty Ltd 
10 Eagle St Brisbane Qld 4000

I was cold called by this company and they used every tactic to try and get me to join their scheme, dropping the price by half in just one ph conversation. They called me 5 times in just one day, I asked them to email me information I then did research to find that they are internet invisible IE they have just popped up over night, the only thing I can find is their ABN registration on ASIC https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/R...rchText=65 156 538 233&searchType=OrgAndBusNm 
This is cheap and easy to do and by no means should anyone think that that makes them legit.

I then emailed various questions regarding conflicting information in their data on their brochure and the guy emailed back to say it would take too long to answer those questions and it would seem to him that this investment was not suitable for me (IE I am not an easy enough target).

For all I know their scheme is Legit but from this I would suggest that if anyone gets a call from them then do not proceed unless they can give you a free trial to prove that their system works.

I am concerned that PDF Group has just popped up over night, intentionally has no web presence so that people cannot get any background for research and will just act on optimism, it's clever to use a name like PDF that makes it like a needle in a haystack for inexperienced googlers.


----------

