# World War III: Has it Started?



## Garpal Gumnut (18 January 2013)

I was thinking much about the mostly European and North American workers killed in Algeria by the Al Qaeda thug, and his henchmen, whose name I thankfully have not committed to memory.

It made me think that the West needs to adopt a similar ethic as it did in WW11.

Civilians are going to be casualties in this war.

We need to harden up to this fact.

Our lives have been so changed by a small bunch of irresponsible extreme hostile Islamists, since 9/11, that at some stage we have to say, enough is enough.

Get rid of all the stupid ineffective airport security and ban on toothpaste bigger than 99g.

And there will be civilian casualties.

We cannot have them change our freedoms and way of life, there is no safe place against them.

This is inevitable in a just war against fascism.

We just need to go after the bastards, wherever they lie. 

gg


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*

The French seem to have been more proactive in this new concept of war.

They are in to Mali and will sort it out.

gg


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## drsmith (18 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Get rid of all the stupid ineffective airport security and ban on toothpaste bigger than 99g.



Sorry GG. I have to disagree with that.

Toothpaste bigger than 99g typically offers better value per unit volume.


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## Sean K (18 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*

I'm not sure, gg. 

No clear alliances between major powers yet. Especially on the 'other side'. Who has signed up to mutual support in  total war? Only all of our mates, backed by the greatest military power ever. 

These Islamist side shows are just that. Minor skirmishes, in perspective. 

Give China 10 more years and....ouch. 

Having said that, world war is very different in the age of the 'strategic corporal.'


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## CanOz (18 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



kennas said:


> Give China 10 more years and....ouch.




Really? They are an aggressor in 10 years time? What, like the US Kennas?

CanOz


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## sydboy007 (18 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*

I'm sick of people making a problem that generally doesn't exist.  All the we can't do that because it might offend <insert what ever group(s)> and the community is the poorer for it.

Yet when you ask who has been offended, generally no one knows.  Plain stupid.

We're appeasing the demands of a minority without getting anything return which allows the radical Muslims to set the agenda. A perfect example was the recent decision by British government no longer to teach the Holocaust in its school system because it offends some Muslims

Any of the idiotic arab prostestors who think beheading is the only answer to just about anything, then I support a tax pay funded 1 way ticket to a country where you can find others who have a similar attitude to yours.

Just don't tar them all with the same brush.  i have many muslim friends and they're sick of the activity of the religious nutters just as much as we are.

My hope is the west will wean itself off middle east oil quick smart.  I long for the day when we close our borders to these countries and give them a few hundred years to get thru their continuing dark ages.  Maybe 50 years into their enlightenment / reformation we can start to trade and intermingle.  

If this makes me racist or bigoted, well i'll take the label, as long as these idiots start admitting their suicide murders and haven't had any social progress for a couple of Millenia.  

I truly hope we can avoid the clash of civilisations, but am growing pessimistic that it will be forced upon us.


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## CanOz (18 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*

Lulz...another thread about Muslims....


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## DB008 (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



sydboy007 said:


> I'm sick of people making a problem that generally doesn't exist.  All the we can't do that because it might offend <insert what ever group(s)> and the community is the poorer for it.
> 
> Yet when you ask who has been offended, generally no one knows.  Plain stupid.
> 
> ...




+1

Also, 







> If this makes me racist



It's not a race, it's a stupid submissive ideology.


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## sydboy007 (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



DB008 said:


> +1
> 
> Also,
> It's not a race, it's a stupid submissive ideology.




I've come to the conclusion only white people are racist.

A for WWIII...Israel feels cornered enough to piss of the yanks by increasing their housing in disputed areas.  At some point they're going to think to bomb some of the main Iranian nuclear facilities.  I really don't like to think that in 15-20 years we could have a multi nuculear armed middle east, but seems we are headed that way.


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## DB008 (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



sydboy007 said:


> I've come to the conclusion only white people are racist.




I think I missed your    - or sarcasm ????

I work with black African people, they are some of the most racist people l know. Hate white people, with a passion.


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I was thinking much about the mostly European and North American workers killed in Algeria by the Al Qaeda thug, and his henchmen, whose name I thankfully have not committed to memory.
> 
> It made me think that the West needs to adopt a similar ethic as it did in WW11.
> 
> ...




Sometimes in the fog of replies the content and intent of the original post is lost.

This is not about racism, godbothering of the Allah type, or hatred of any nationality.

It is about the ability of the extreme hostile Islamists to kidnap, murder and torture civilians anywhere in this world, from London to Madrid, Algeria to Bali.

It is about an intent to impose fascism upon other states and cultures.

It is done with the tacit or complicit assistance of states such as Iran, Pakistan and others, and in my view a WWW 111 has started.

The Chinese are as sick and tired of it as the US.

World wars make strange bedfellows.

Just look at WW11.

We in the West need to, as well as fighting this fascism, ensure that our lifestyle and values remain intact, that we travel freely and not become constipated by ridiculous security measures at our airports and borders, designed to give an appearance of busyness without the security of protection.

And in the process, unfortunately, civilians will be injured and lost. 

Less so hopefully in the long run, than are at present with the softly softly approach.

gg


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## Sean K (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



CanOz said:


> Really? They are an aggressor in 10 years time? What, like the US Kennas?
> 
> CanOz



Yes, like the US, eventually. Maybe 20 or 30 years... Do you not think with their new found economic and eventual military might they will not want to influence other countries in the region into doing what is in their own best interest? They will also have some responsibility to assist the international community in keeping the peace abroad in places such as Africa where they will have significant economic interest I think. Maybe they'll just be international nice guys?


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## IFocus (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



kennas said:


> Yes, like the US, eventually. Maybe 20 or 30 years...




Only if their political system maintains stability.


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## Sean K (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



IFocus said:


> Only if their political system maintains stability.



Yes, I read a pretty interesting book recently called The Next 100 Years, by George....someone. A very respected futurist. He predicts they'll break up and the US maintains it's dominance with a war between the US and Mexico likely...

edit: just googled it:

By George Friedman

_A fascinating, eye-opening and often shocking look at what lies ahead for the U.S. and the world from one of our most incisive futurists.

In his thought-provoking new book, George Friedman, founder of STRATFOR””the preeminent private intelligence and forecasting firm””focuses on what he knows best, the future. Positing that civilization is at the dawn of a new era, he offers a lucid, highly readable forecast of the changes we can expect around the world during the twenty-first century all based on his own thorough analysis and research. For example, The U.S.-Jihadist war will be replaced by a new cold war with Russia; China’s role as a world power will diminish; Mexico will become an important force on the geopolitical stage; and new technologies and cultural trends will radically alter the way we live (and fight wars). Riveting reading from first to last, The Next 100 Years is a fascinating exploration of what the future holds for all of us. _


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



kennas said:


> Yes, I read a pretty interesting book recently called The Next 100 Years, by George....someone. A very respected futurist. He predicts they'll break up and the US maintains it's dominance with a war between the US and Mexico likely...
> 
> edit: just googled it:
> 
> ...




Futurists are a dime a dozen.

Just look at the Global Warming Hysteria thread.

Here's a futurist from one year before the outbreak of WW11.

His name was was Neville Chamberlain, and he was PM of the UK at the time, so he must have known more than the average Joe.



gg


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## DB008 (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



kennas said:


> STRATFOR””the preeminent private intelligence and forecasting firm””focuses on what he knows best, the future.




And where the term 'pwned' came from - http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/03/inside-the-hacking-of-stratfor-the-fbis-case-against-antisec-member-anarchaos/


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## Sean K (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Futurists are a dime a dozen.
> 
> Just look at the Global Warming Hysteria thread.
> 
> gg



Yep, and this one.


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 January 2013)

At last, the West is about to take the fight to the cowardly extreme Islamist terrorists.

From the UK Independent.



> David Cameron has warned that a diplomatic response would not be enough to tackle the growing terrorist threat in north Africa and that a “robust security response” must be deployed.




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-declares-support-for-robust-security-responseto-counter-growing-threat-of-terrorism-in-north-africa-as-30-foreign-hostages-including-12-britons-are-thought-to-be-dead-or-missing-in-the-sahara-desert-8457456.html

There will be civilian casualties in this war.

Up until now the West has been hamstrung by a response that supported appeasement and negotiation.

In the long run, enlightened ideas will win out against fascism.

gg


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## IFocus (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



kennas said:


> Yes, I read a pretty interesting book recently called The Next 100 Years, by George....someone. A very respected futurist. He predicts they'll break up and the US maintains it's dominance with a war between the US and Mexico likely...
> 
> edit: just googled it:
> 
> ...





Haven't read his latest book but do read a bit of his stuff, find the basis for some of his geopolitical commentary quite interesting particularly the history of rather than future predictions.


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## sydboy007 (19 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



DB008 said:


> I think I missed your    - or sarcasm ????
> 
> I work with black African people, they are some of the most racist people l know. Hate white people, with a passion.




I suppose I should have, but to me the main stream media only ever reports racism when it's a white person.

I would argue a lot of the Islamofacism is based around racism against anyone not considered Arab enough.  You only have to see how the Jordanians and Kuwaitis lord it over the locals in Malaysia when they head there for holidays.  They go there because it's a Muslim country, but they're not quite "pure" enough for them.


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## pixel (19 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> At last, the West is about to take the fight to the cowardly extreme Islamist terrorists.
> 
> From the UK Independent.
> 
> ...




Civilian casualties: It's about time we accepted that fact as unavoidable, because one side hides behind civilians and even places its weapons in schools and hospitals. Calling them cowardly fascists must be considered an offense even to cowards and fascists.

Western society has progressed, one would like to think, to a level of ethics where any civilian casualty is considered a tragedy, and efforts are made to ensure "nobody gets hurt." That development has probably been accelerated by reflecting on the horrors of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, as well as the anticipated targets during the Cold War arms race - all of which deliberately targeted the civilian population. Civilised nations, and not all of them "Western", recognised the insanity and took a step back from barbarism. 
However, if our own tolerance and humanitarian principle is exploited against us, by a barbaric mob of fanatics, I cannot see any other way than calling their bluff *and laying blame for innocent casualties at their feet.* And if any government is condoning and supporting such terrorist organisations, civilised nations ought to withdraw support and boycott it.

One thing that bothers me greatly in this context is the silence of the moderate majority of Muslims. If they don't stand up against the radical thugs in their midst, they have to wear the same criticism and condemnation as the majority of Christian clergy did in their tacit approval of Nazism.


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## sydboy007 (19 January 2013)

pixel said:


> One thing that bothers me greatly in this context is the silence of the moderate majority of Muslims. If they don't stand up against the radical thugs in their midst, they have to wear the same criticism and condemnation as the majority of Christian clergy did in their tacit approval of Nazism.




here here!

THEY are slaves who fear to speak	
For the fallen and the weak;	
They are slaves who will not choose	
Hatred, scoffing, and abuse,	
Rather than in silence shrink	        
From the truth they needs must think;	
They are slaves who dare not be	
In the right with two or three.

I wonder if i could live up to this standard if the need arises.  I hope I would.  If not then I'll have to accept the blame and consequences.

The west needs to rid itself of Middle Eastern oil, and we can just pretty much ignore them then.  No petro dollars to fund their idiocy, they might have to actually start doing some real work.


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## explod (19 January 2013)

In the first WW we had a few biplanes, gatling guns, gas and some bigger bore artillery in which to do the deed.

In WW11, 20 odd years later we advanced to a couple of Atomic bombs.

Its over 60 years since that wonderful, productive and great leap where are we now.  If we would chart that growth in firepower we should be able to manage the total destruction of the whole universe in the next stoush.

*It is not going to happen. * Maybe a few bow and arrows into degenerate/unco-operatives who are sitting on some good oil and gas sites.

A Ricards style currency war is where we are heading.  And the aussie dollar will go to US$1.50 plus and wipe us out that way.

You know, as much as I absolutely detest guns I think the seppos have something in the idea of full disbursement of firearms.  If everyone has one then apart from the odd oddbod, everyone else will be too scared of the other not to behave.

Now its Saturday afternoon, I have not had my first tinnie yet,  so it would be good if everyone behaved


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## DB008 (19 January 2013)

Something else to keep in mind - while we are talking about WWIII scenarios...

Iran is getting close to developing a nuclear bomb.

Israel and USA have been successful in _*slowing down*_ Iran with the Stuxnet worm. More info in the 'Iran War' thread.

'Flame' was also discovered late last year - again - targeted specifically at Iran.

It seems that Israel (with 'more than likely' help of the USA, possibly Germany too - Siemens PLC point of manufacture), is really trying everything to slow down Iran in it's pursuit of the bomb. Now that the USA election is over...

Will there be a full-blown-war? l doubt it. ~40,000 Iranian Jews and ~1,573,000 Arabs living in Israel.

Maybe Iran just wants the bomb as a deterrent.
Who knows.


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## Sean K (19 January 2013)

gg, who are the teams in your WWIII scenario?


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## burglar (19 January 2013)

kennas said:


> gg, who are the teams in your WWIII scenario?




Them and us, ... as always!


And ohhhh, God is on our side.


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 January 2013)

kennas said:


> gg, who are the teams in your WWIII scenario?




A very good question, although "teams" probably diminishes the gravity of the situation. 

Them and us as burglar so prosaically noted below is as good an answer as I can give.

Alliances change in all wars, you just have to look at how Joe Stalin and Herr Hitler started off as mates and ended as enemies, and how the Yanks came in after Pearl Harbor, after sitting on their hands.

Us and Them is good enough for the moment on reflection.



burglar said:


> Them and us, ... as always!
> 
> 
> And ohhhh, God is on our side.




If god is on your side, burglar, you are stuffed as he is usually on the other guys side too.

He gets to pick the winner, after the winner has won.

gg


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## sydboy007 (20 January 2013)

Seems all the hostages at the gas plant in Algiers are dead


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Seems all the hostages at the gas plant in Algiers are dead




All civilians taken by these extreme Islamic fascists need to, on the point of capture, resist and fight.

There can be no negotiation with this type of terrorist.

All governments need to issue new guidelines on action to be taken by their citizens if captured by the fascists.

Resistance.

From the UK Telegraph



> The full extent of the militants’ chilling intent and the horrors inside the facility began to emerge yesterday. According to the eyewitness account of an Algerian cook, working at the compound, the kidnappers grabbed one British hostage and forced him at gunpoint to call for other Westerners to come out from where they were hiding. Once his colleagues had given themselves up, the Briton was shot in cold blood. “They threatened him until he called out in English to his friends,” said the man named Chabane. “A few minutes later, they blew him away.”
> One source said 15 burned bodies had been discovered by the Algerian troops as they secured the area. Another said that 16 hostages had been freed, including two Americans, two Germans and one Portuguese. French authorities said all their nationals were accounted for, Norway said six of its citizens were missing, while the Romanian government said one of its citizens was dead.




gg


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## Julia (20 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> All civilians taken by these extreme Islamic fascists need to, on the point of capture, resist and fight.



Not quite sure exactly how I'd be capable of resisting a bunch of big blokes, heavily armed?


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## explod (20 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Not quite sure exactly how I'd be capable of resisting a bunch of big blokes, heavily armed?




Maybe we need to start an ASF neighbourhood protection plan.

Anyone that worked in social R + D about.

Of course the Greens "back to the neighbourhood villiage" concept would do it.


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

Julia said:


> Not quite sure exactly how I'd be capable of resisting a bunch of big blokes, heavily armed?




There is more to resistance than physically fighting.



explod said:


> Maybe we need to start an ASF neighbourhood protection plan.
> 
> Anyone that worked in social R + D about.
> 
> Of course the Greens "back to the neighbourhood villiage" concept would do it.




Unlikely as it would be, and with great respect to your good self plod, I would not relish being captured by extreme Islamic fascists in the company of a Green.

gg


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## explod (20 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> There is more to resistance than physically fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Feed them, give them a job and the extremism would pass away in less than a generation.

Noted huge social change during the course of my career with new arrivals from the 1970's

Also the successes of the old Colombo Plan was also a good case in point.  Started out to assist in self sufficiency it worked very well in the early years but has since been eaten up by the West's need to make a profit out of everything.  

Never stop laughing at GWB going for Iraq following the two towers destruction when in fact the problem proved to be more from sections of Pakistan in which the US worked hand in glove.(and most of use knew that, hence the street demonstrations at the time)


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unlikely as it would be, and with great respect to your good self plod, I would not relish being captured by extreme Islamic fascists in the company of a Green.
> 
> gg






explod said:


> Feed them, give them a job and the extremism would pass away in less than a generation.
> 
> Noted huge social change during the course of my career with new arrivals from the 1970's
> 
> ...




And that is just the reason plod, why I would not relish being clapped up with a Green by extreme Islamic fascists.

I can just imagine the conversation between two of them pointing kalashnikovs at us.

Fascist 1  " What did that kaffir say about the US and gloves ? "

Fascist 2  " I think he said something about the US using kid gloves with us brothers "

Fascist 1  " Kill him and get that harmless looking kaffir with the cigar in his mouth to take his body out behind the vehicles parked near the gate "

gg


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## explod (20 January 2013)

As you wish gg.  However in another life did a lot of study on aggression.

It be-gets aggression which suits the system (US in particular) for the manufacture and sales or arms.  And plenty of anecdotal gets through that the seppos supply the enemy.  One of the reasons they detest people like Assange  

Of course, they the "Islamic fascists" would cut you down before morning tea, but we know and just talking about that is a useless exercise.  

Tell me about what we can do to change such things?  

I also know that many people with the answers give up, as first they run into such deadbeat attitudes as permeates site's such as this and a Governmental system that only plans for the next three years.


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## pixel (20 January 2013)

explod said:


> Feed them, give them a job and the extremism would pass away in less than a generation.




I doubt you could find enough food and jobs, explod.
Unless you'd first got rid of the Islamofascist indoctrination in Qur'an schools, they'd outbreed all your free food aid. There'd also be enough followers among the impressionable young, who'd find it much easier and 'cooler' not to work for a living, but to destroy. Our childhood games of Cops and Robbers or Cowboys and Indians may have resulted in relatively harmless bruises or the odd broken bone; in hindsight though, I wouldn't trust any of my then play mates if someone had given us a real Smith & Wesson or Kalashnikov with live ammo...


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

pixel said:


> I doubt you could find enough food and jobs, explod.
> Unless you'd first got rid of the Islamofascist indoctrination in Qur'an schools, they'd outbreed all your free food aid. There'd also be enough followers among the impressionable young, who'd find it much easier and 'cooler' not to work for a living, but to destroy. Our childhood games of Cops and Robbers or Cowboys and Indians may have resulted in relatively harmless bruises or the odd broken bone; in hindsight though, I wouldn't trust any of my then play mates if someone had given us a real Smith & Wesson or Kalashnikov with live ammo...




Paul Keating famously called Australian Democrats and Greens, Fairies at the Bottom of the Garden.

They live in la la land.

In a war, they would be at the least bad, useless; and at worst a hindrance.

Best they vent.

gg

ps may I state that within this post is the first correct use of a semi colon on ASF.

gg


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## explod (20 January 2013)

I could not be bothered doing a dummy spit.

In the next day or so I am going to find or create a thread on education.

Getting just this one thing on track, if we can, is the only hope.


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## wayneL (20 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Paul Keating famously called Australian Democrats and Greens, Fairies at the Bottom of the Garden.
> 
> They live in la la land.
> 
> ...




In retrospect, I appreciate many of Keating's utterances; the one you mention a prime example.

He would have made as good a Liberal as Turnbull a Labourite... and an acid wit second to  none.


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 January 2013)

wayneL said:


> In retrospect, I appreciate many of Keating's utterances; the one you mention a prime example.
> 
> He would have made as good a Liberal as Turnbull a Labourite... and an acid wit second to  none.




Agree.

If there is to be a War, I'd prefer a Keating, Howard or Abbott leading Australia, rather than a Turnbull, Gillard or Rudd.

Conviction, thought, execution and mojo count more in a war than soft spin.

gg


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## Julia (20 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Agree.
> 
> If there is to be a War, I'd prefer a Keating, Howard or Abbott leading Australia, rather than a Turnbull, Gillard or Rudd.
> 
> ...



That's actually an interesting light in which to consider the candidates.  Agree with you.  Although I have reservations about Tony Abbott, I'd be happy to depend on him acting in Australia's best interests in a crisis, along with, as you suggest. Howard and Keating.  Forget the rest.  They are without genuine conviction.


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## wayneL (20 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Agree.
> 
> If there is to be a War, I'd prefer a Keating, Howard or Abbott leading Australia, rather than a Turnbull, Gillard or Rudd.
> 
> ...




War can bring out the best in people, sometimes something straight out of the hat. Churchill being a case in point... a former useless upper class twit and buffoon, a disastrous failure in WWI, yet the most inspirational leader of the 20th century in WWII; yet subsequently voted out on his @ss in the post war period portrayed as war monger by the ungrateful socialist toe-rags, consigned to depression and the indignity of old age without a purpose. Being right about the USSR being little consolation.

No one can know the mettle unless the mettle is tested, but I suspect your perceptions of these individuals are reasonably accurate...

In the current situation, I think I'd prefer Abbott over Dullard in the event of war, but this can only be demonstrated in the actual event... but let's hope this is never necessary.

...just my musings on the matter.


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## pixel (20 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Agree.
> 
> If there is to be a War, I'd prefer a Keating, Howard or Abbott leading Australia, rather than a Turnbull, Gillard or Rudd.
> 
> ...




I agree to an extent, gg.

However, there is a huge difference between the conditions confronting Howard in 2003 and the current ones. Howard could follow GWB into Iraq because he had Kim Beazley's backing. Whatever Gillard does, is either dictated by a bunch of fluffheads and single-minded excentrics; or blocked/ watered-down by an opposition leader as a matter of principle.

As a wise old Statesman once said: 







> Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable - the art of the next best.




For Howard, it was "possible" to invade Iraq and play GWB's little deputy in the Pacific. He could also take a strong and effective stand against "the boats". With the power distributed as it is today, neither Rudd nor Gillard found that possible.


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## Garpal Gumnut (21 January 2013)

For what it is worth I now believe we are in a War. 

WW111.

Islamic-Fascists of the Extreme Islamist Mohammed Believing Faction against the Rest, Us.

I abhor godbotherers.

Most just sing hallelujahs, impose misogyny or tribalism or get their kicks from control.

Whether they follow Mohammed, Jesus, Elijah or some other brand does not matter.

And many of the followers of Mohammed, Jesus and Elijah are reasonable people.

Our problem is with the extreme Islamist Mohammed Fascist thugs who can snuff a good life out with a prayer to their god.

**** them.

Game on.

gg


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## McLovin (21 January 2013)

*Re: World War 111  Has it Started*



sydboy007 said:


> We're appeasing the demands of a minority without getting anything return which allows the radical Muslims to set the agenda. A perfect example was the recent decision by British government no longer to teach the Holocaust in its school system because it offends some Muslims




This is completely false.


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## DB008 (21 January 2013)

Good pick up there McLovin.

If you Google 'Holocaust not taught in UK schools', you get a bunch of results back (like below)



> A report by Britain’s Department for Education and Skills notes that an increasing number of schools are dropping the teaching of the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim students. The report, titled Teaching Emotive and Controversial History, also observes that many teachers are reluctant to discuss the Crusades because the lessons frequently contradict what is taught in local mosques.http://www.examiner.com/article/british-schools-drop-holocaust-from-history-lessons-so-as-not-to-offend-muslims




Dig a little deeper...

*T.E.A.C.H Report*

http://www.history.org.uk/resources/resource_780.html



> The TEACH report outlines the sort of good practice in teaching sensitive topics which is available for teachers to share, not least through the Historical Association's programme of subject-specific training.
> 
> The Teaching of the Holocaust in English Schools
> 
> ...


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## Garpal Gumnut (21 January 2013)

Whether WWW111 has or has not started, it is stunning, the silence of moderate Islamists to the atrocities committed by their erstwhile co-religionists, followers of Muhammed.

Christians criticise Christians, Jews do so to Jews.

But there is a silence from moderate followers of Muhammed.

They must be too frightened to speak, lest they suffer the fate of "unbelievers".

I cannot understand it.

And I have friends who are Muslims, who change the subject when it is raised, or say " it is too difficult ".

gg


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## baby_swallow (28 May 2015)

It will be sparked by the current tensions in South China Sea and in Europe......
Question: What will happen to the sharemarket, or the financial world as a whole???

http://www.news.com.au/world/the-wa...ocative-postures/story-fndir2ev-1227371823129


----------



## luutzu (28 May 2015)

baby_swallow said:


> It will be sparked by the current tensions in South China Sea and in Europe......
> Question: What will happen to the sharemarket, or the financial world as a whole???
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/the-wa...ocative-postures/story-fndir2ev-1227371823129




Have you seen Mad Max?
If we go nuclear, we'd be lucky if there's some topsoil left to grow a carrot or two. Forget about the financial markets.


Yesterday NATO and allies carried out some wargames in the Arctic above Russia; Russia responded with 12,000 and some 346 aircraft defensive wargame of its own.

China is building airstrips in the South China Sea, put up a couple of lighthouses and dare the US to do something about it... that and shooing them away.

Then there's the Middle East and North Africa and their uprisings and general terror and mayhem.

Add to that economic and financial meltdowns we're yet to get out of; and unlikely for a while given the massive unemployed, underemployed and generally poor and desperate living from paycheck to paycheck while the rich managed to set record $3 billion US dollar auctioning for some paintings and a few collectibles.


The last time these kind of conditions exists the Ottoman collapsed, the French Empire shrivelled and collapsed, the British Empire sets with most of Europe and Asia levelled and a new world power rises.

Now that all major powers have nukes to play with... if it goes to midnight, maybe new species will rise after a few thousand years.


----------



## baby_swallow (28 May 2015)

getting scarier by the day.......

*"China moves weapons on to artificial islands in South China Sea"*

http://www.smh.com.au/national/chin...lands-in-south-china-sea-20150527-ghb3vv.html


----------



## wayneL (17 November 2015)

We have all imagined that world war three will be fought between superpowers with nuclear weapons.

Perhaps not. Perhaps it has already started,a war of attrition and will between politico-religious ideologies irrespective of state, rather than started off opposing purely political ideologies.


----------



## luutzu (17 November 2015)

wayneL said:


> We have all imagined that world war three will be fought between superpowers with nuclear weapons.
> 
> Perhaps not. Perhaps it has already started,a war of attrition and will between politico-religious ideologies irrespective of state, rather than started off opposing purely political ideologies.




We the people better start reining these employees of ours in before they destroy the world and everything in it.

Clinton call her vote for Iraq invasion a "mistake"... wow man, if a mistake could costs millions of lives, displace millions more and unleash wars all over the region... if that's a "mistake", it'll be scary what a fark up would be.

Obama, a peace loving guy, call Iraq a "strategic blunder"... maybe killing millions here, hundreds of thousands there... if it serve his grand strategy it wouldn't be so bad then? fark. Is using drones all over the place a strategy or a tactic? I guess it succeeds in... ??

And remember Bush Jr? Cracking jokes about not finding WMDs at those fancy dinners? Yea, funny ha ha... scaring the heck out of every American about mushroom clouds so need to liberate the world from the Axis of Evil, then opps... sorry folks, sorry your kids died following me and my band of arm chair warriors... Sorry Iraqis that a million or two of your folks will die. Actually, I don't even think they've ever apologised... they feel they're misunderstood and history will be kinder to their heroic deeds.


----------



## explod (15 October 2016)

I think it is unfolding whilst the MSM is focused on Trump

http://www.news.com.au/world/russia...s/news-story/a3a445dba24ade74c4da76460d4a144a


----------



## CanOz (15 October 2016)

explod said:


> I think it is unfolding whilst the MSM is focused on Trump
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/russia...s/news-story/a3a445dba24ade74c4da76460d4a144a




Utter rubbish explod, it even reinforces how little you really know about gold....if the world really thought we were above to go to WWIII, wouldn't you expect gold to go parabolic????


----------



## explod (15 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> Utter rubbish explod, it even reinforces how little you really know about gold....if the world really thought we were above to go to WWIII, wouldn't you expect gold to go parabolic????




Maybe.  JPM, Rothschild, Russia,China et al are keeping the lid on gold with paper contracts whilst they take in all the physical they can get hold of.  Check the charts and note the huge paper dumps during periods of quiet trading.

Rothschild Family Dumps U.S. Dollar For Gold & 'Other Currencies ...
https://cointelegraph.com/.../rothschild-dumps-us-dollar-for-gold-other-currencies-bit...
Aug 22, 2016 - The Rothschild family recently announced that they are moving out of the U.S. Dollar, the global reserve currency, into gold and 'other currencies'. Can it be Bitcoin? ... Viewer discretion is advised. Gold · Bitcoin · Dollar · USA ...


Gold will rise after the starting gun.

However this thread is not about gold.  Its time to acquire a gas mask IMHO


----------



## explod (17 October 2016)

Not looking good in my view.




> Russian military experts have threatened the United States and asked it to be prepared for World War 3 to commence soon.
> 
> The tension between Russia and the US has been increasing, with a series of attacks and counter-attacks taking place between them. America has also accused the former of “war crimes” in Syria earlier that escalated the bitterness between the two nations, which continued to exist after the Cold War. At the moment, both the nations are experiencing the same level of tension that they used to have during the Cold War.
> 
> ...


----------



## CanOz (17 October 2016)

explod said:


> Not looking good in my view.




What's the source of this ridiculous scare mongering?? Or is this someone's opinion??


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2016)

The US has declined in power but is still the No. 1 superpower and I don't think Russia (NB not the Soviet Union) would take them on directly, yet.

Probably the big threat is a Russia - China alliance, but can China afford to lose all the trade it does with the West ?

I don't think WW3 is imminent atm, but I think the West has to be prepared to up it's arms production to stay ahead of Russia and China.


----------



## explod (17 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> What's the source of this ridiculous scare mongering?? Or is this someone's opinion??




https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.a...sia-tells-us-get-ready-war/amp/?client=safari


----------



## explod (17 October 2016)

Sorry the last comes up as a 404 error.  FBI probably got to it

Anyway there is plenty of the ranting on Zero Hedge:



> Russian rumors of permanent military presence in Middle East
> 
> 
> On Friday, the Kremlin announced that Putin just ratified an agreement with Syria that allows Russia to use one of its air bases indefinitely, creating a more permanent Russian presence in the Middle East. Russia also announced last week plans to build a permanent naval base in the Syrian port town of Tartus. (The Jerusalem Post)
> ...


----------



## CanOz (18 October 2016)

explod said:


> Sorry the last comes up as a 404 error.  *FBI probably got to it*
> 
> Anyway there is plenty of the ranting on *Zero Hedge:*




FBI? Doubtful...

Zerohedge has all but admitted to being sensationalist, yet you still seem to think they're a reliable source of information Explod....why? Because it suits your negative alarmist and prepper-like view?


----------



## explod (18 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> FBI? Doubtful...
> 
> Zerohedge has all but admitted to being sensationalist, yet you still seem to think they're a reliable source of information Explod....why? Because it suits your negative alarmist and prepper-like view?




Agree with you on Zero Hedge.  However the bias of news from all quarters needs to be considered and questioned.

Following a co-workers experience when he attended a criminal investigation training course with the FBI in the late 80's I made a study of Edward J Hoover.  The biography I have is on loan atm but will pass on reference later today.  More recent texts have been watered down (for obvious reasons).  The corruption over there within the system is alarming and clear to me that its even worse today.

Because few people are properly educated the elite can do as they please.

Why Canoz do you infer a negative tone towards my take.  This is a discussion forum and wide varying perspectives should be welcomed.  We are not going to learn much by agreeing on everything.


----------



## CanOz (18 October 2016)

explod said:


> Agree with you on Zero Hedge.  However the bias of news from all quarters needs to be considered and questioned.
> 
> Following a co-workers experience when he attended a criminal investigation training course with the FBI in the late 80's I made a study of Edward J Hoover.  The biography I have is on loan atm but will pass on reference later today.  More recent texts have been watered down (for obvious reasons).  The corruption over there within the system is alarming and clear to me that its even worse today.
> 
> ...




I agree that you can put forth your opinion, but why do we always have to be so negative and alarmist on everything? The media likes it, it sells ads. I prefer myself, to create my own opinion based a balance of facts...

FWIW, the Fin Review had a balanced opinion on this today. Yes, tensions are rising and the opportunity exists for China and Russia to take advantage of the US and its pre-occupation with the election....but don't think they're not watching things closely.


----------



## explod (18 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> I agree that you can put forth your opinion, but why do we always have to be so negative and alarmist on everything? The media likes it, it sells ads. I prefer myself, to create my own opinion based a balance of facts...
> 
> FWIW, the Fin Review had a balanced opinion on this today. Yes, tensions are rising and the opportunity exists for China and Russia to take advantage of the US and its pre-occupation with the election....but don't think they're not watching things closely.




I suppose because I come from the harder side.  

When I was six, wed just moved onto our farm (April 1952, a very wet and cold year).  The eldest of five children at that stage.  Our farm then was a bare 600 acre paddock with just a small hut to live in.  No electricity, phone, only a tub to wash that first year before the house was built was tough.  Often Dad effected by the war would take off in our 1924 dodge truck to the Pub.  So I became a big support to Mother.  Had a big effect on my life.  Later a shearer then a cop 28 years

Today at 70 I'm a red cross volunteer, an active member of the AUWU (unemployed workers) among other political involvements.  I know how people are hurting on the ground and my feeling for people will not let me rest, have always had to help.  The people behind and who write The Financial Review would not have a clue.

Across Australia for every 1 job there is in excess of 19 people.  I talk to people effected by ice and other issues.  They see no future or hope for themselves, have given up and just trying to dull the pain.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

explod said:


> Across Australia for every 1 job there is in excess of 19 people.  I talk to people effected by ice and other issues.  They see no future or hope for themselves, have given up and just trying to dull the pain.




Plod, there is an oversupply of labour in this country brought about by years of high immigration and generous bonus for bringing children into the world even if people don't have the income to look after them.

Back in your day I reckon people worked damn hard for what they got, these days some expect it to be handed to them on a plate.

If you are a member of the Greens the best thing you can do is to get them to advocate for a cutback on immigration, reduce the supply of labour and therefore increase it's price (wages). Wage stagnation and increases in part time as a replacement to full time work is what is killing this country. People don't have the confidence to spend if they don't know if they will have a job tomorrow.

The Greens and others have to recognise that supply and demand applies to labour as well as to goods and services. We have saturated our ability to create jobs because there are just too many people in the country without the jobs to go around.


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Plod, there is an oversupply of labour in this country brought about by years of high immigration and generous bonus for bringing children into the world even if people don't have the income to look after them.
> 
> Back in your day I reckon people worked damn hard for what they got, these days some expect it to be handed to them on a plate.
> 
> ...





Wrong, wrong, wrong again Rumpy......Nothing to do with immigration.

We have an over supply of labour thanks to the communist dominated unions who have stuffed this country
with higher wages, longer annual leave, 17.5% leave loading, long service leave, outrageous penalty rates and the likes of danger money and demarcation.......All adds to the cost of production to make us non competitive.....The mining industry is depleted due to commodities prices so we now have less mines operating. 

We don't make boots....we don't make clothes......we have no woolen mills or knitting mills......We don't make cars any more....All gone overseas thanks to the unions....Are you starting to see the picture or are you so blind that you cannot see.

My air force son tells me the government may have to go to China or Bangladesh because we don't have clothing factories big enough to cater for ADF uniforms.

Good stuff hey?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong again Rumpy......Nothing to do with immigration.
> 
> We have an over supply of labour thanks to the communist dominated unions who have stuffed this country
> with higher wages, longer annual leave, 17.5% leave loading, long service leave, outrageous penalty rates and the likes of danger money and demarcation.......All adds to the cost of production to make us non competitive.....The mining industry is depleted due to commodities prices so we now have less mines operating.
> ...




You are always saying that union membership is declining, so its obvious that they don't have the power that they once had. And if they did have the power then wages would be rising, but they are stagnant. That's a simple case of supply and demand. Too much labour when technology is decimating virtually every aspect of industry, commerce and services.


----------



## Tisme (18 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You are always saying that union membership is declining, so its obvious that they don't have the power that they once had. And if they did have the power then wages would be rising, but they are stagnant. That's a simple case of supply and demand. Too much labour when technology is decimating virtually every aspect of industry, commerce and services.




There's still 1.8 million plus registered memberships according to the ACTU. That's about 1.8 million more members than the Liberal Party of Australia and about the same 1.8 million proxy votes the ALP has.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> There's still 1.8 million plus registered memberships according to the ACTU. That's about 1.8 million more members than the Liberal Party of Australia and about the same 1.8 million proxy votes the ALP has.




Hmm. I wonder how many union members actually vote ALP. I think the majority would but there would also be some who vote Green and a few who vote Lib/Nat. 

What do we say about professional organisations like the AMA ? Unions by another name, but they wouldn't be support Labor. There were days under Bruce Shepherd when they withdrew their labour so they can get as bolshy as the Left Wingers if they don't get their own way.


----------



## explod (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong again
> 
> Good stuff hey?




No Champ, we've just strayed shocking off topic.

I'll check on the war and get back.


----------



## Tisme (18 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Hmm. I wonder how many union members actually vote ALP. I think the majority would but there would also be some who vote Green and a few who vote Lib/Nat.
> 
> What do we say about professional organisations like the AMA ? Unions by another name, but they wouldn't be support Labor. There were days under Bruce Shepherd when they withdrew their labour so they can get as bolshy as the Left Wingers if they don't get their own way.




There's a difference between voting at the polls and voting in the party conventions. The unions are the foundation members of the ALP.

I know of many on struggle street and blue collar who vote Liberal for whatever altruistic reason they reconcile their decision. Likewise I know a few mega wealthy who admit to me of voting Labor (usually after I announce I vote for imbeciles )


----------



## Bill M (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> higher wages, longer annual leave, 17.5% leave loading, long service leave, outrageous penalty rates and the likes of danger money and demarcation.......




I have had all these conditions throughout my working life, why would anyone want to give that up? I wouldn't wish Chinese, Bangladesh or Indian wages on our people currently in the work force that's for sure, would you?



> We don't make boots....we don't make clothes......we have no woolen mills or knitting mills......We don't make cars any more....All gone overseas thanks to the unions....Are you starting to see the picture or are you so blind that you cannot see.




The reason all these places closed up is because the factory owners saw a way out for more profit and took their business to China. You know, all them great Aussie icons like "Bonds", "Chesty Bonds". It's all about profit, they just want more and more and couldn't give a stuff about their Aussie staff. Here we go:
---
The clothing giant confirmed yesterday it would close its seven Australian factories in a bid to save $150 million a year, justification that drew fierce criticism from political and financial leaders yesterday.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/chesty-bond-turns-its-back-on-oz/story-e6freuzr-1111118966766
---

A long time ago a wise man on radio once once said something like: "Why worry about businesses that we can't do anything about and concentrate on what we can can do. We have the best country on earth, he said, why not sell tourism? We have the best beaches, best foods, fine restaurants, good hotels, fresh air, why wouldn't they want to come. Make it easier for them to come and spend their $$$. No use flogging a dead horse and it provides lots of jobs."



explod said:


> No Champ, we've just strayed shocking off topic.
> 
> I'll check on the war and get back.




I'm sorry explod, I strayed too. I don't think WWW 111 is happening just yet anyway mate, cheers.


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2016)

explod said:


> No Champ, we've just strayed shocking off topic.
> 
> I'll check on the war and get back.




John Pilger and a few other historians would agree with you explode: WW3 had already started, just that it hasn't gone nuclear yet.

There's all those proxy wars in the ME and the Ukraine; new alliances are redrawn and made - Eastern European states are either into NATO or NATO is prying it from the Russians; Turkey looks like it's drawing towards Russia and away from the US/NATO since the failed coup in July; India just signed a deal with Russia, and they got a few things going on with Iran for its oil... then there's China trying to buy friends and influence little tigers in Asia. 

So the stage is set. All we need is a trillion dollars worth of next gen mini-nuke to play with. Oh wait.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> John Pilger and a few other historians would agree with you explode: WW3 had already started, just that it hasn't gone nuclear yet.
> 
> There's all those proxy wars in the ME and the Ukraine; new alliances are redrawn and made - Eastern European states are either into NATO or NATO is prying it from the Russians; Turkey looks like it's drawing towards Russia and away from the US/NATO since the failed coup in July; India just signed a deal with Russia, and they got a few things going on with Iran for its oil... then there's China trying to buy friends and influence little tigers in Asia.
> 
> So the stage is set. All we need is a trillion dollars worth of next gen mini-nuke to play with. Oh wait.




Sad though it is, nukes have prevented WWIII for 70 years. They are actually pretty useless now though because everyone is afraid to use them because they know it will be the end of everything, but they still produce the rubbish to show how smart they are. 

I doubt if intentional Armageddon will happen, although it could happen accidentally. As for nukes, if you can't beat em, join em.


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong again Rumpy......Nothing to do with immigration.
> 
> We have an over supply of labour thanks to the communist dominated unions who have stuffed this country
> with higher wages, longer annual leave, 17.5% leave loading, long service leave, outrageous penalty rates and the likes of danger money and demarcation.......All adds to the cost of production to make us non competitive.....The mining industry is depleted due to commodities prices so we now have less mines operating.
> ...




Not sure why the workers and the gov't always have to "compete" to win business. 

It being a democracy and the politicians being servants of the people and what not, maybe we ought to tell those overpaid schmucks they ought to compete to do business and sell their stuff here.

It's just one big track to the bottom we're being put on, and we're somehow more than happy to comply and beat each other up to for it.


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Sad though it is, nukes have prevented WWIII for 70 years. They are actually pretty useless now though because everyone is afraid to use them because they know it will be the end of everything, but they still produce the rubbish to show how smart they are.
> 
> I doubt if intentional Armageddon will happen, although it could happen accidentally. As for nukes, if you can't beat em, join em.




I just hope Obama's $1T over 10 year is just another corporate welfare cheque to the arms industry... because a couple of US generals, I heard on the news, are quite terrified that the US is actually investing in miniaturised versions of nukes like that.

For one, they're afraid that because it's designed for "lesser bang", it's more likely be used. Then for countries who are smarter and have less money, say Russia, when a small nuke goes off they'd just return with their big ones.

That and god help us if they made it compact enough a terrorist got their hands on it... thru say, a shot down plane or a broken jeep or an abandoned/over-ran base with a box or two. 


But yea, we are just so stupid man. Have enough nukes to blow the world a few times over and we thought it's not defensive enough so we'd go offensive with them.


Some nuclear commission recently moved that Doomsday Clock 3 minutes to midnight. Same time as it was during the Cold War.


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You are always saying that union membership is declining, so its obvious that they don't have the power that they once had. And if they did have the power then wages would be rising, but they are stagnant. That's a simple case of supply and demand. Too much labour when technology is decimating virtually every aspect of industry, commerce and services.




You are wrong again.

You don't seem to understand how the average wage works and I have explained it to you before.

When the miners were demanding very high wages, much higher than the awards because of location and the high demand for those workers, that demand has been weakened due to commodity prices of minerals...As I tried to explain to you on a previous occasion, most of the mining work was carried out by contractors whether it be on a one or 2 year contract.......As there  has been a slow down in mining, those contracts come up for re-tender and it has become very competitive...I gave you an example of my neighbor who works at on one of the mines and up until August this year he was earning X amount of dollars.......The contractor whom he was working for, lost out on the re-tender and the contract was awarded to a new contractor.......Contractor "A" says, sorry fellows we missed out so you are now without a job......Contractor "B" comes along and says to my neighbor, I believe you do a good job here, would you be prepared to work for my company.......Contractor "B" says, we will engage you at X amount of dollars ( which is 30% lower than contractor "A").......My neighbor says, well OK, I was earning $150,000 per year but I am will still be earning good money at $105,000 and he either accepts the job or goes without...He works 12 hour shifts....one week on and one week off.....FIFO.

So when looking at the average wage and the amount of reduction in wages as explained, one would adopt the impression that wages have slowed...To the best of my knowledge, apart from the mining industry, real wages have not slowed....It is all about statistics and the average weekly wage taking in all factors and the fall in wages on mining sites comes into the equation....Thousands of workers on mines have been affected in the same way. 

Have I explained it in simple language for you to understand?

:topic


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> Have I explained it in simple language for you to understand?
> 
> :topic




Here is something simple for you to understand. Mining employs less than 2% of the workforce. So Gina might be crying poor, but lets not hear her say that she employs a lot of people.


----------



## McLovin (18 October 2016)

WW III on the horizon? Nah. Although I wouldn't want to be a former Soviet state in Central Asia. I've said on here a few times that great powers need space. China and Russia are primarily pursuing that goal. Russia also has the added incentive of owning a naval "base" in Syria. 

As for nukes, those who are mad are not worried about MAD, and that should be what we're worried about.


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> Not sure why the workers and the gov't always have to "compete" to win business.
> 
> It being a democracy and the politicians being servants of the people and what not, maybe we ought to tell those overpaid schmucks they ought to compete to do business and sell their stuff here.
> 
> It's just one big track to the bottom we're being put on, and we're somehow more than happy to comply and beat each other up to for it.




It is all about free enterprise.....If you go to a corner store and see their apples at say $6.99 a kilo and then you go to super market and see the same apples at $4.99 kg, where will you go to buy your apples next time?

I have just explained to Rumpy how things have been working in the mining industry.

So how can those schnucks, as you call them, make ADF uniforms here when we do not have the clothing factories here and if we did have them, at what price would they cost?...Probably double the price we can import them for....So I guess you are suggesting that the government should subsidize a local manufacturer, that is if he had the capacity to be able to supply  thousands of ADF uniforms......We have some 4000 ADF personal along here in Townsville...

Off topic.


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

Bill M said:


> I have had all these conditions throughout my working life, why would anyone want to give that up? I wouldn't wish Chinese, Bangladesh or Indian wages on our people currently in the work force that's for sure, would you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If those outlandish working conditions had not been implemented in the first place we may still have our manufacturing industry and more jobs...Half of my working life was rewarded with 2 weeks annual leave without leave loading...We worked a 40 hour week.....now days many work 38 hours and in some cases 36 hours per week......And you say you worked all your life with those great conditions and would not be prepared to give any up.

Companies went over seas because they just could not compete here with higher wages....They either took their factories overseas or go out of business here.......Profit seems to be a dirty word with many people from socialist world...What do you expect a company to do?....Run at a loss just to keep people employed.

That Chesty Bond movement took place February 26 2009....Things have gone from bad to worse since then. 

So what is your solution?

:topic


----------



## CanOz (18 October 2016)

This thread is way off topic, but its pretty obvious that labor costs in Australia are not affected much by supply and demand as much a non unionized countries. Its affected by holding the business to ransom.

Take the US, i may have said before, i have a mate that is a breakdown mechanic at a steel foundry in Michigan. He makes about $15.00 an hour. They're not unionized. He met a colleague of mine that works in a factory in Australia. He was pretty shocked to find out that a person without a trade, or even a high school diploma can be making $20 - $30 an hour doing unskilled labor...and  still complain about it.

I agree with all of you that it is quite likely that without Unions here in Australia companies would have taken advantage of employees. But there are good companies out there trying to survive in Australia and can't due to excessively high wages. With a higher proportion of tasks going to automation i'm surprised the labor government has not thought of banning robotic technology yet. 

Now that would cause a war... see back on topic.


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> It is all about free enterprise.....If you go to a corner store and see their apples at say $6.99 a kilo and then you go to super market and see the same apples at $4.99 kg, where will you go to buy your apples next time?
> 
> I have just explained to Rumpy how things have been working in the mining industry.
> 
> ...




Not all cost savings are passed on, not even proportionately. If it does, all my clothes would cost 50 cents instead of $5 a piece.

For gov't contracts, any cost saving is just extra cream on that gravy. I know because I know people who know people who supply to gov't  j/k.


I'm sure I've said it before a while back... but if you look at any instance where a company have to move its manufacturing overseas, it does it after extracting all the "efficiency" and costs out of its workforce; can't do it any more then bugger off to other more desperate workers overseas.

It's never the case that workers want too much pay and are unwilling to be reasonable. 

But say it's the labourer's fault for being able to abuse their position and demand too much... free market does apply to them slobs too right?

But reality is labourers, and soon, if not already, the more "professional" workforce, don't have much pricing power. For one, they don't got the cash to have politicians listens to them; for two they can't just pick up and move easily offshore to get a job.

Businesses, particularly multinationals... they can buy influence, have "free trade deals" signed as they'd like.. .and move their production and capital freely wherever it's most profitable.

Hence, pitting gov't against gov't; workers against more desperate workers.

----

And no, I'm not saying that we ought to keep all manufacturing here at home; not anti-trade either. But there ought to be a balance between new, better paying jobs and the transition period; greater investment into training and education to prepare existing and future generations for new kind of work.

This would mean higher corporate taxes, not cutting them hoping for it to trickle down; then cut services and less pay to the poor and working plebs while we wait for the trickles.

Funny how to make Australia great, more money should be given to the rich... but less money have to be handed out or spend on the poor. 


Anyway, it's these kind of beggaring the poor and alienating the masses that causes war and revolution. 

Just this time, the war could go global and nuclear... that or things will just go on as it has and people don't mind it one bit.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> This thread is way off topic, but
> 
> Now that would cause a war... see back on topic.




Yes analogues feed into causation, be it brute force or straws that break camels backs. Unhappiness of nations is a great driver for violent change.


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## SirRumpole (19 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> This thread is way off topic, but its pretty obvious that labor costs in Australia are not affected much by supply and demand as much a non unionized countries. Its affected by holding the business to ransom.




Off topic again. 

I'm sure your statement is right to an extent, there are award wages and the unions would object if these were breached, but if there are  50 applicants for every job that would give the employers an advantage wouldn't you say ? That's why wages have stagnated (and even the employers are complaining about this because it means no growth in consumer spending power).

One of the reasons why the official employment rate  is steady or slowly falling is that full time working hours are being reduced, therefore less family income. That doesn't show up in the *unemployment* rate but does show up in the *underemployment* rate which is now at historically high levels.

Now, back to the war. (I thought we weren't supposed to mention that).

:rocketwho


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

Wages grew at way above average during the mining boom while productivity went nowhere. It's no surprise that wage growth is flat. We're also coming off the biggest boom ever, the fact that wages haven't fallen or the economy isn't in recession is something to probably cheer about.


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## luutzu (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> Wages grew at way above average during the mining boom while productivity went nowhere. It's no surprise that wage growth is flat. We're also coming off the biggest boom ever, the fact that wages haven't fallen or the economy isn't in recession is something to probably cheer about.




I thought the miners gain abnormal supa profit during that one in a generation mining boom too. So Gina and the BHPs of the Australia can make that abnormal gain in profit, but workers shouldn't?


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> I thought the miners gain abnormal supa profit during that one in a generation mining boom too. So Gina and the BHPs of the Australia can make that abnormal gain in profit, but workers shouldn't?




Huh?


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## luutzu (19 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Off topic again.
> 
> I'm sure your statement is right to an extent, there are award wages and the unions would object if these were breached, but if there are  50 applicants for every job that would give the employers an advantage wouldn't you say ? That's why wages have stagnated (and even the employers are complaining about this because it means no growth in consumer spending power).
> 
> ...




Yea, the way they define "unemployment" is odd too. It's all just to paint whatever picture the dear leaders want painted.

Heard some UK news saying the latest report from US about American wealth is that if you have no debt and $10, you're richer than half of the American population.

I hope I heard it wrong, but they mentioned it a few times... I have some idea of personal debt and mortgages putting people into negative equity, but half is a bit shocking.

----------

Speaking of war and civil unrest... and going off what Chomsky quoted Aristotle and US 4th [?] president James Madison approaches to solving social inequality and keeping the peace.

They both recognise that in any society, there will always be the few rich and the many poor. How do you keep the peace and control the poor masses, keeping them in line so they won't march on your gated mansion?

Aristotle proposes what we call the Welfare State. Gov't create jobs, provide social security so the poor won't struggle so terribly that they would take up arms. As it turn out, with the masses being educated and having enough to eat and some saving - they can work smarter, think a bit... and also have cash to spend, driving up demand and so create jobs to produce those increased demand.

Madison's, and many others, namely the neo-con like Greenspan and our own copycats... their solution is to keep the masses stupid and precarious. 

Less money to the poor, less job security to them, indebt them with free trade and free market through such things as predatory lending, low interest rate to take their savings and drive up property prices so they'd buy in and be indebted for most of their rebellious days... and that's just as good of a whip to keep people in their place.


In totalitarian states, that kind of tough love tend to work... until it stopped and the plebs put a few heads on a few spikes.

In more democratic states, well they're slowly taking away the rights to protest - calling it riots and trespassing; labelling you a terrorist and imprison you without charge etc.... and so far it seem to be working. But it always end up with a pretty ugly country to live in.

But that's fine since if you're rich enough, you can take holidays in paradise somewhere... and if you're lucky or work hard enough to directly own a few stocks or a couple of properties... you'd slowly make rationales to take wages from people, all for efficiency and competitiveness and a buck or two in extra dividend.


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## luutzu (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> Huh?




Originally Posted by McLovin :


> Wages grew at way above average during the mining boom while productivity went nowhere. It's no surprise that wage growth is flat. We're also coming off the biggest boom ever, the fact that wages haven't fallen or the economy isn't in recession is something to probably cheer about.




During the mining boom, mining companies also make above average profit too yes?

So why is it normal for the companies to make abnormal profit growth but is it not so right for the labourers who work for them to make abnormal wage?

And how do you measure productivity to conclude that those labourers didn't make any productivity gain for their wage gains?

Sure you can argue that they're doing the same work at higher wages and all the extra profit are just price increases... but even if that were true, that's part of the deal: people can work just as hard or as little, as long as what they do produce higher profit to justify their wages. Free market.


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> Originally Posted by McLovin :
> 
> 
> During the mining boom, mining companies also make above average profit too yes?
> ...




Wow. Way to totally misrepresent what I said.


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## luutzu (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> Wow. Way to totally misrepresent what I said.




So what do you mean by:
"Wages grew at way above average during the mining boom while productivity went nowhere."

anyway, just chalk it down to me not being able to read English and you speaking too fast for my sluggish mind.


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> So what do you mean by:
> "Wages grew at way above average during the mining boom while productivity went nowhere."
> 
> anyway, just chalk it down to me not being able to read English and you speaking too fast for my sluggish mind.




In the 90s productivity drove wage increases. After 2001 productivity slowed massively but wages kept growing because of the mining boom. Productivity is still flat, the mining boom is over so it's not surprising wage growth has stalled.


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## Ves (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> In the 90s productivity drove wage increases. After 2001 productivity slowed massively but wages kept growing because of the mining boom. Productivity is still flat, the mining boom is over so it's not surprising wage growth has stalled.



The Productivity index has only just now got back to where it was in the late 70s, hasn't it?

(That could be a combination of capital + labour productivity, though and not just labour productivity)


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

Ves said:


> The Productivity index has only just now got back to where it was in the late 70s, hasn't it?
> 
> (That could be a combination of capital + labour productivity, though and not just labour productivity)




I've seen that graph somewhere, but was there a rebasing of that index somewhere along the lines? I seem to recall having a similar issue with some other ABS data going way back and my old mate from the ABS filled in the gaps (it had to do with married women and the participation rate if I'm remembering right). It seems highly unlikely that we're only just now catching up to productivity in the 1970s. Which wasn't really a great period for Australian productivity. And of course we've come along in leaps and bounds since then in every which way.

This is a pretty good graph though of 5 year rolling productivity increases in Australia. It's not totally up to date though, but it makes the point.





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-06/ged-kearney-wages-productivity-claim-overstated/5227450

So yeah, the wage flat spot, at least IMO, seems more likely due to the productivity flat spot and the end of the boom than anything else.


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## Ves (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> I've seen that graph somewhere, but was there a rebasing of that index somewhere along the lines? I seem to recall having a similar issue with some other ABS data going way back and my old mate from the ABS filled in the gaps (it had to do with married women and the participation rate if I'm remembering right). It seems highly unlikely that we're only just now catching up to productivity in the 1970s. Which wasn't really a great period for Australian productivity. And of course we've come along in leaps and bounds since then in every which way.
> 
> This is a pretty good graph though of 5 year rolling productivity increases in Australia. It's not totally up to date though, but it makes the point.
> 
> ...




Here's the one I was looking at:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/productivity

(you'll have to switch the chart to "Max")

They're saying the data is sourced from the ABS,  you're right it doesn't make sense, but there's probably an explanation for it.


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

Ves said:


> Here's the one I was looking at:
> 
> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/productivity
> 
> ...




Yeah, it looks as though it was rebased...or Sydney and Melbourne were razed back in the early 80s and we never knew!


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## Ves (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> Yeah, it looks as though it was rebased...or Sydney and Melbourne were razed back in the early 80s and we never knew!



LOL.    I can't find a way of making an historical chart on the ABS website,  so I assume there's no function that lets you do it.   I don't really have the time to compile all of the historical data myself.


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## craft (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> In the 90s productivity drove wage increases. After 2001 productivity slowed massively but wages kept growing because of the mining boom. Productivity is still flat, the mining boom is over so it's not surprising wage growth has stalled.




I'm not with you on this one. 

Bill Mitchell presents it well.
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=34164

Big picture: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=277



> The following graph shows the indexed growth in hourly real wages and labour productivity per hour since the September-quarter 1997 (the start of the Wage Price Index series).
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Wealth inequality is fuelling so much frustration in many countries - will the frustration lead to a change movement that addresses the real problem or will the change movement just get hijacked by nutters like Trump that will redirect the frustration for a period to their own ends. Nutters saying whatever it takes for power and a discontent populace unsure about the root cause of their discontent is not a good combination for having faith that rationality and peace prevails.


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

craft said:


> I'm not with you on this one.
> 
> Bill Mitchell presents it well.
> http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=34164
> ...




I totally agree that more of the pie is flowing to capital than to labour. I can't argue that the system is stacked against labour but within that dynamic is also the effect of things like the mining boom and jumps in productivity in the short/mid run. But I take your point, and stand corrected.

That's a great blog BTW.







craft said:


> IWealth inequality is fuelling so much frustration in many countries - will the frustration lead to a change movement that addresses the real problem or will the change movement just get hijacked by nutters like Trump that will redirect the frustration for a period to their own ends. Nutters saying whatever it takes for power and a discontent populace unsure about the root cause of their discontent is not a good combination for having faith that rationality and peace prevails.




My fear is not what happens this time, but in four years. The seeds have been sown and it will only take a slightly more erudite proto-facist than Trump to stir up the anger again and win more of the middle.

The problem really is that we are stuck with a system that requires endless forward momentum.


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## CanOz (19 October 2016)

Thanks for getting involved you three...I always learn something when you guys show up!


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## craft (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> That's a great blog BTW.




Yes I agree.




McLovin said:


> My fear is not what happens this time, but in four years. The seeds have been sown and it will only take a slightly more erudite proto-facist than Trump to stir up the anger again and win more of the middle.
> .




After having to consult Google twice for definitions I also agree it's a genuine risk.


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## Ves (19 October 2016)

craft said:


> Wealth inequality is fuelling so much frustration in many countries - will the frustration lead to a change movement that addresses the real problem or will the change movement just get hijacked by nutters like Trump that will redirect the frustration for a period to their own ends. Nutters saying whatever it takes for power and a discontent populace unsure about the root cause of their discontent is not a good combination for having faith that rationality and peace prevails.



The issue is that what is happening is exposing the inherent contradiction in the capitalist model:  the cost of marginal production continues to get closer to zero with each technological advance but the rewards from production generated by the capital owners are growing. However,  the means of production themselves also become cheaper as technological change spreads and they become more and more accessible to a wider range of people (including those who were not formally 'capital owners.').  Think things like the computers and the internet,  3D printing etc. for current examples. Eventually people can start producing more and more things themselves, especially if they are not constrained by providing labour to the capitalists as an employee, because the machines are doing it more and more of it now.  There's already "maker" communities popping up all around the world sharing knowledge within.

Eventually this situation has to unwind because it cannot continue.  I don't know how it unwinds,  but it makes no sense that it doesn't. It could take decades, maybe more, or it could be swift.

As the need for human labour keeps decreasing because of technological advances governments across the world will be forced to take action. They can sit there now when a smaller proportion of the population cannot work because there are no jobs,  but it only gets more pronounced from here.  Universal wages or something similar is probably inevitable.

Historically instances of wealthy inequality seem to be cyclical...   greed/exploitation phases that lasted until they reached a critical point where the exploited rebelled. Of course the greedy exploiters always come back for with a different scheme.


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## luutzu (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> In the 90s productivity drove wage increases. After 2001 productivity slowed massively but wages kept growing because of the mining boom. Productivity is still flat, the mining boom is over so it's not surprising wage growth has stalled.




Alright I see, so you combined all wages and all productivity during the mining boom. Fair enough.

But na, that chart on productivity doesn't look right to those I've seen. Production goes up but real wages flat-lined or declined over the decades.


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> Alright I see, so you combined all wages and all productivity during the mining boom. Fair enough.
> 
> But na, that chart on productivity doesn't look right to those I've seen. Production goes up but real wages flat-lined or declined over the decades.




It's measuring y-o-y change in productivity.


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

Ves said:


> Historically instances of wealthy inequality seem to be cyclical...   greed/exploitation phases that lasted until they reached a critical point where the exploited rebelled. Of course the greedy exploiters always come back for with a different scheme.




The bad bit is not that the cycle reverses, it's how it reverses. It took a World War to blow up enough capital to reset the system last time. The Russians had a revolution.


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## Ves (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> The bad bit is not that the cycle reverses, it's how it reverses. It took a World War to blow up enough capital to reset the system last time. The Russians had a revolution.



Yep,  and don't forget there is wealth inequality and nasty consequences littered all through history before the Industrial Revolution as well.   Every circumstance is different,  but it's always a case of powerful elites tugged too hard against the 'commoners.' I cannot think of an instance where it was settled peacefully.


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## SirRumpole (19 October 2016)

Ves said:


> Yep,  and don't forget there is wealth inequality and nasty consequences littered all through history before the Industrial Revolution as well.   Every circumstance is different,  but it's always a case of powerful elites tugged too hard against the 'commoners.' I cannot think of an instance where it was settled peacefully.




If we had a government that recognised that such middle -upper class welfare like negative gearing on residential property was increasing wealth inequality and fostering class resentment, and therefore agreed to discontinue such schemes, maybe we could avoid a full scale class "war".


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

Ves said:


> Yep,  and don't forget there is wealth inequality and nasty consequences littered all through history before the Industrial Revolution as well.   Every circumstance is different,  but it's always a case of powerful elites tugged too hard against the 'commoners.' I cannot think of an instance where it was settled peacefully.




On the positive side of the ledger democracies (especially parliamentary ones) have a pretty good record of adjusting, even if it takes a few wobbles to get there.

We're living in the 1930s at the moment.


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## McLovin (19 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If we had a government that recognised that such middle -upper class welfare like negative gearing on residential property was increasing wealth inequality and fostering class resentment, and therefore agreed to discontinue such schemes, maybe we could avoid a full scale class "war".




That's not a handout, it's a straight up tax perk. Or following on from the discussion about productivity v wages; capital taking a bigger slice of the pie increases company profits. Millionaire retirees receive that as a dividend which isn't just tax free they get all the tax the company paid back too as a cash refund. Employees, who are getting less reward for their own productivity increase get told their taxes will go up. 

Yep, I'd hate to be on the wrong side of the wedge.


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## luutzu (19 October 2016)

McLovin said:


> That's not a handout, it's a straight up tax perk. Or following on from the discussion about productivity v wages; capital taking a bigger slice of the pie increases company profits. Millionaire retirees receive that as a dividend which isn't just tax free they get all the tax the company paid back too as a cash refund. Employees, who are getting less reward for their own productivity increase get told their taxes will go up.
> 
> Yep, I'd hate to be on the wrong side of the wedge.




I don't think the new money in their bank account know the difference between a handout and a tax perk man.


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## noirua (23 October 2021)

Biden says US will defend Taiwan if China attacks
					

His comments are an apparent departure from the long-held US position of "strategic ambiguity".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Maybe Australia need some nuclear warheads for their new up and coming nuclear submarines as World War 3 approaches.


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## noirua (23 October 2021)

The history of Taiwan formerly Formosa: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34729538








						INOMUN -What's behind the China-Taiwan divide?
					

China and Taiwan’s shared conflictual history that has yet to come to an end Year 1949 is marked by the end of the civil war that was ravaging China, opposing the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China [...]




					www.inomun.com


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## noirua (25 October 2021)

China-Taiwan: the drumbeat gets louder - Master Investor
					

China is making ominous threats against Taiwan. What are the chances that China might seize the territory by force? And what would be the consequences, asks Victor Hill.




					masterinvestor.co.uk
				




China is building up its forces at the rate of the UK every 4 months.  They appear to want to have a force so great the whole of the rest of the world would not dare intervene. Anyway, we the rest of the world buy goods from China at such a rate we are paying for these . Australia is set to have an armed nuclear Navy far exceeding present plans but will it be too late?


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## Dona Ferentes (19 March 2022)

eek. I'm confused. Is WW3 the same as (the) www?

But seriously, the idea is still around, the context seems to have changed.


noirua said:


> China is building up its forces at the rate of the UK every 4 months.  They appear to want to have a force so great the whole of the rest of the world would not dare intervene.



With Ukraine/ Russia exercising minds it is time to revisit:


> “_At the end of the Cold War, the US army had almost 800,000 troops in the active component. Today, the army has 480,000,_” [an analyst] says. “_In the late 1980s, the navy had nearly 600 ships. Today, they have fewer than 300. Air Force pilots in the Cold War used to fly 200-plus hours a year, today it’s 120._”



"_Comparisons with China are also frightening on a material capacity and readiness basis, but China’s experience in terms of command and control in the battlefield is not as superior as America’s .... in America’s current state, it could not fight two theatres of war in Europe and the Indo-Pacific like it did in World War II_".

 ...............
_But it’s a lot harder to track the US *cyber and intelligence-gathering capabilities*. In 2020, a record $US85.8 billion was approved in the US intelligence budget consisting of two major components: the National Intelligence Program and the Military Intelligence Program. This includes everything from open-source intelligence collection to signals, imagery and human intelligence – all of which have been crucial in the Ukraine conflict.

Former CIA senior intelligence officer Martijn Rasser, now a director of the Technology and National Security Program at the Centre for a New American Security, says it’s hard to measure the reservoir of US cyber capability and intelligence at any one point, let alone in Ukraine._


> _“What’s been remarkable ... is that Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials are still broadcasting on television, that they’re on radio, they’re all over social media, and it appears that Russia is powerless to stop it,” _he says._ “I was expecting Russians to decimate Ukraine in cyberspace. For whatever reason, Russia really hasn’t used cyber as an instrument of war, much at all in this conflict.”_



_
Microsoft’s Threat Intelligence Centre in Seattle was reported as playing a crucial role in this. Three hours after the Russian invasion, Microsoft identified a piece of “wiper” malware aimed at the country’s government ministries and financial institutions and reported it to Ukraine’s top cyber defence authority and the White House’s deputy national security adviser for cyber and emerging technologies Anne Neuberger. Microsoft had the code to block the malware and shared it with other prospective targets of Russian aggression._




noirua said:


> Australia is set to have an armed nuclear Navy far exceeding present plans but will it be too late?



is 2040 too late?


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## moXJO (19 March 2022)

Saudis are in talks with Syria and snubbed Biden. Iran, Russia, Venezuela. Lot of the big energy players are not friendly. And this decade is all about energy.


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## wayneL (20 March 2022)

David Starkey on Putin, Russia and the impotence of the West.

Brilliant


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## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> David Starkey on Putin, Russia and the impotence of the West.
> 
> Brilliant



Interesting commentary, he will be cancelled for sure, no one will want to hear what he has to say. 😂
I started a thread 'will China end up owning the World', I think it is only a matter of time, they are much more advanced than Russia and Russia is showing that we really can't do anything to stop them.
I'm not suggesting a war, because really I don't think the West is in any state to fight a war, which country has the ability to gear up its manufacturing to build a war machine to resist China and its manufacturing base? Germany has the ability and the manufacturing, but relies on energy from Russia. The U.K closed down its manufacturing in the 1960's and 70's, the U.S will be more concerned about protecting itself, so really what does the West do? Interesting times ahead IMO.


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## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting commentary, he will be cancelled for sure, no one will want to hear what he has to say. 😂
> I started a thread 'will China end up owning the World', I think it is only a matter of time, they are much more advanced than Russia and Russia is showing that we really can't do anything to stop them.
> I'm not suggesting a war, because really I don't think the West is in any state to fight a war, which country has the ability to gear up its manufacturing to build a war machine to resist China and its manufacturing base?



The manufacturing base that the West pays for.


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## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The manufacturing base that the West pays for.



Well I wouldn't mind a dollar, for how many times we have said that, but I think the chooks are coming home to roost mate.
The West has been taken over by the sector, that believe if we behave nicely and do the right thing, everyone else will treat us nicely. I think this Ukraine thing is proving that isn't always the case. Hopefully it isn't the tip of the iceberg, otherwise we can forget about renewable energy, that will be the last thing on people's minds.


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## wayneL (20 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting commentary, he will be cancelled for sure, no one will want to hear what he has to say. 😂
> I started a thread 'will China end up owning the World', I think it is only a matter of time, they are much more advanced than Russia and Russia is showing that we really can't do anything to stop them.
> I'm not suggesting a war, because really I don't think the West is in any state to fight a war, which country has the ability to gear up its manufacturing to build a war machine to resist China and its manufacturing base?



The yanks do, but....

1) starting from well behind the 8-ball

2) will have to let go of wokeness.... What the Chinese call bai zhou or something like that.

No. 2) is the problem which will hold them back


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## greggles (10 October 2022)

Inching closer every day. We've never been closer to nuclear war in my lifetime. It feels like the world is on a knife's edge, and the stakes keep getting higher. A direct clash between Russia and NATO almost seems inevitable now. Either Putin *is* bluffing, or WW III is where we are headed.

There will come a tipping point, and that is when Russia's offensive operations start to crumble. If Putin is going to go nuclear it will happen then. This is a war that Russia isn't prepared to lose and a war that the west isn't prepared to let Russia win. That sort of scenario is bound to get ugly on an unprecedented scale.


----------

