# Ricky Ponting should be sacked



## arminius (7 January 2008)

i am aussie. i love cricket, footy, beer. 
ive felt this for a long time, and after the second test i am certain. 
ponting should go. 
he does not have the attributes of an australian captain. 
relieve ricky ponting of the captaincy.

strategy. tactics. diplomacy. sportsmanship. subtlety. wisdom. 
not in his vocab.

who instead? hussey


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## tech/a (7 January 2008)

Yeh its not fair is it!

While we're at it 
Federer should be banned from tennis.
Tiger Woods from golf
Schumaker from Formula 1
Murdoch from media.


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## wayneL (7 January 2008)

tech/a said:


> Yeh its not fair is it!
> 
> While we're at it...
> 
> ...Murdoch from media.



I'll second that.


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## doctorj (7 January 2008)

The sub continent can only get the umpires sacked - not Australian Captains!

Punter did a great job, they won, he showed good sportsmanship (remember the catch he didn't claim) and fantastic leadership for the boys on the field.

What a load of sooks!  I read in the paper they're considering going home.  I thought people grew out of sulking before they were 10.  They lost, they need to move on and fight a good fight at the WACA.


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## Lucky_Country (7 January 2008)

He had the luck with him on the 2nd test.
Hes had the luck of the great players through his captaincy as well but 16 victories on the trot cannot be denied.
Great player but not the best captain but gets the results


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## chewy (7 January 2008)

pffft punter does a great job as captain and the results speak for themselves. Plenty of other Aussie captians have had 'dream teams' without the same results. 

And good on him for reporting Singh - I agree that leaving the sledging on the field is good. But racist comments should be reported. And anyone that thinks that 'monkey' isn't racist is deluded - it has been used for aeons directed at africans to suggest they are inferior / yet to evolve into true humans - so when directed at Symonds it was certainly racist (especially in light of the chanting in India that it followed on from).


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## Dukey (7 January 2008)

arminius said:


> i am aussie. i love cricket, footy, beer.
> ive felt this for a long time, and after the second test i am certain.
> ponting should go.
> he does not have the attributes of an australian captain.
> ...




I think Ricky is fine and safe as captain. He hasn't done anything worthy of being sacked over. And he HAS brought home the bacon time and time again.  
There is a certain arrogance about him sometimes - maybe I feel he 'talks the talk' and 'walks the walk' - _in different directions_ sometimes.
ie. - He'll tell the opposition players to get off the pitch when given out.... but when batting he's more than happy to stand his ground  and stare-down the ump if he feels hard done by. Thats a bit much for me.
But not a sackable offence.

As for the umpiring... well something has to be done there. Bad decisions in this test could well have cost india the match!!  and now the series is finished and doomed to boredom!

Unfortunately - the 3rd umpire will probably have to take a bigger role.  Either that or they bring in mandatory 'walking' and fine players who can be shown to have breached 'fair play' by not walking if they have hit the ball, or by claiming a dodgy catch. Something like this was suggested by Kerry O'keefe (tongue in cheek) on ABC radio - but actually I reckon it's not a bad idea.
...


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## Whiskers (7 January 2008)

Lucky_Country said:


> He had the luck with him on the 2nd test.
> Hes had the luck of the great players through his captaincy as well but 16 victories on the trot cannot be denied.
> Great player but not the best captain but gets the results




Yeah, you summed up my thoughts Lucky_Country... as a gentleman of a gentlemans sport... he's not in the same league as AB.


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## Sean K (7 January 2008)

Dukey said:


> Unfortunately - the 3rd umpire will probably have to take a bigger role.  Either that or they bring in mandatory 'walking' and fine players who can be shown to have breached 'fair play' by not walking if they have hit the ball, or by claiming a dodgy catch. Something like this was suggested by Kerry O'keefe (tongue in cheek) on ABC radio - but actually I reckon it's not a bad idea.
> ...



While the third umpire becomming more influencial is inevitable, players should not have to make an umpiring decision. There are good and bad decisions and players cop their share of both. Why walk when you are going to be given a dodgy out decision the next game. 

Ponting is the second best man for the job at the moment and should keep it. It's a shame Aussie keepers can't be captains in the modern game. Also a shame Hussey couldn't find a spot in the team 5 years ago.


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## marklar (7 January 2008)

Whiskers said:


> Yeah, you summed up my thoughts Lucky_Country... as a gentleman of a gentlemans sport... he's not in the same league as AB.



Ha! AB is the original "Captain Grumpy", the '89 Ashes series was where it really came to light.

m.


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## cuttlefish (7 January 2008)

Watching the beach cricket thing in Perth briefly the other day I think they had penalties for not walking. (or maybe that was just a discussion by the beach cricket commentators).

To me the Australian team changes the rule book on whats fair in sledging to suit themselves.  Whats ok one week isn't ok the other week - they can dish it out but can't take it and they're doing that under Ponting.

They can cry to mum all they like, but they don't win respect by dishing it out but clinging to the skirts when it comes back at them.  

And if you win due to bad decisions - and its denial to not acknowledge there were a series of bad decisions that went Australia's way - then its a hollow victory - not one to be proud of and prance about like Galah's upon winning.

I don't think Ponting or the team is winning a lot of respect by their actions and I don't think Ponting's behaviour is doing anything to further the spirit of the sport. 

The reasons the phrase 'its just not cricket' came about are well and truly dead.

In relation to sledging - India's just trying to clumsily match them at their own game - the cultural and language differences don't help the situation either.

If they're going to start penalising certain types of sledging then they should mike up all the players so at least we can hear what really went on.

And if Ponting wants to act all hurt about umping decisions, like he did after his overzealous and aggressive appeal for a catch off the pads yesterday then he should pay tribute to the fact that India is also justified in feeling angry about bad decisions.


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## kgee (7 January 2008)

I don't think anyone could get much satisfaction from that test...it was a joke
by the way if I call my nephews little monkeys am I racist?


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## Pommiegranite (7 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> The sub continent can only get the umpires sacked - not Australian Captains!
> 
> *Punter did a great job, they won, he showed good sportsmanship (remember the catch he didn't claim) and fantastic leadership for the boys on the field.*
> 
> What a load of sooks! I read in the paper they're considering going home. I thought people grew out of sulking before they were 10. They lost, they need to move on and fight a good fight at the WACA.




What about the 'catch' Ponting tried to claim which actually hit the ground? Or where he raised his finger to signal to the umpires that Ganguly had been caught out? 

Punter is a great leader and player, but lets not get carried away about him being a good sport, because that he is not. 

Nor is he a good role model to children. Theres only one in the team who seems to have this character: Hussey.

I remember not so long ago the Australia used to be a very sporting country, which made me envious as an Englishman.

Now it seems Australia has turned into an over patriotic bastardized child of the USA, where it's the winning at all costs which counts, and not the taking part. 

As for sulking, I did note that the India squad came out onto the field after defeat and congratulated Australia. Nor did they criticize the umpiring. It was a far cry from the sulking which I've witnessed from the Australia cricket team upon defeats abroad.


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## >Apocalypto< (7 January 2008)

arminius said:


> i am aussie. i love cricket, footy, beer.
> ive felt this for a long time, and after the second test i am certain.
> ponting should go.
> he does not have the attributes of an australian captain.
> ...




Sack him for what keeping us on top of the world in all forms of the game?

You're an IDIOT


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## robots (7 January 2008)

hello,

couldn't agree more about the "monkey" term, where is the racism in that term?

for singh to get 3 matches, wow, 

thankyou

robots


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## Pommiegranite (7 January 2008)

Trade_It said:


> Sack him for what keeping us on top of the world *in all forms of the game?*
> 
> You're an IDIOT




..there's only one IDIOT here. That be the person who thinks that Australia are top of the world in all forms of the game.


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## chewy (7 January 2008)

kgee said:


> by the way if I call my nephews little monkeys am I racist?




Don't be naive - are they african and are you calling them a monkey to try and degrade them and their race as being inferior and dumber than yours...I doubt it - more like he isn't african and you are calling him a little monkey because he is cheeky / climbs things etc. The monkey chants at Symonds were clearly racially directed and Singh to follow up with calling him it on field was obviously meant the same way...no doubt about it in that context it is clearly racist and should not be tolerated at all - as I said earlier the term monkey has been used for aeons directed at africans to suggest they are inferior / yet to evolve into true humans


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## miller (7 January 2008)

I do miss Steve Waugh, but you can't sack Ponting when you look at how well we are doing. 

As for sportsmanship, I don't think the Indians would have done any different if they were in the same position.


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## Lucky_Country (7 January 2008)

No need for any sledging games should be won on ability not name calling.
Warnie would call anyone any name and that culture seems too have stuck get rid of it and grow up


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## ithatheekret (7 January 2008)

Poor old Ponts , see what sobriety brings ..........


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## >Apocalypto< (7 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> ..there's only one IDIOT here. That be the person who thinks that Australia are top of the world in all forms of the game.




LOL

20/20 IMO is not really Cricket,  fun to watch though........

But yes i am known for my Idiotic comments!


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## Knobby22 (7 January 2008)

I would like to see a new captain.
Someone with a wider view of cricket rather than winning at any cost. 
Don't like him.


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## cuttlefish (7 January 2008)

The whole intent of Australian sledging as I understood it was aimed to offend and rattle the opposing player - that involves saying things that are going to put them off their game - the more it bites and messes with their head the better. The reputation the Aussie's have (I don't know the reality, I've never stood on a field next to them during a match) is that they take it to the wire and will use whatever underhanded comments they can to get under the skin of the opposition.  

What does that involve? I don't know, never heard it directly - maybe someone else could comment.  
For example, does australia's sledging tacticis include things like:
* derogatory comments about a persons mother, sister, brother, father?
* Does it include comments about where they were born or how they were conceived?
* Does it include comments about what sort of sexual partners they like to have? 
* Does it include comments about their personal hygiene?

I could think of all sorts of very nasty things that could be said to someone that wouldn't be classed as racism but would be very offensive and not in the spirit of any sport or positive human interaction.  (I'll save everyone the use of explicit examples).

So where is the line drawn?

If you play with fire you get burnt.  The Australian's (at least according to hearsay and legend - I've never stood on a field next to them) have had a reputation of playing with this fire for years.

I'd agree that sledging doesn't need to be part of the game.  If the Aussie's want it to be part of the game thats their business but then keep it on the field.  You can't have it one way and not the other.

If they're going to police on field language and verbal behaviour then do it consistently.  

If you dish it out then you have to take it - and if its getting out of hand then the way to compromise is to approach your opponents directly and sort it out man to man - not go crying to a judiciary imo.


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## professor_frink (7 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> ..there's only one IDIOT here. That be the person who thinks that Australia are top of the world in all forms of the game.




We have to knock you poms over in England to reassert our domination before we can go around bragging too much.


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## Knobby22 (7 January 2008)

The Aussies don't use racist comments, they just call the Indians "bus drivers" and taunt them any other way they can. I am finding myself barracking for the Indians.


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## >Apocalypto< (7 January 2008)

professor_frink said:


> We have to knock you poms over in England to reassert our domination before we can go around bragging too much.




we will just need to send Australia A to do that Frink. LOL


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## Mazrox (7 January 2008)

I think it’s pretty clear that in many parts of India “Monkey” is a derogatory term. A couple of Indian callers to ABC this morning confirmed this. Also the bits of “An Aussie Goes Bolly” (airs tonight on Foxtel 8.30 on Fox8) that were shown on the Cricket Show at lunch on Saturday look very ugly. I’ll be interested to have a look at the whole program

I have gone to the cricket for years and have to say as a 40-something woman who often goes alone (if I can’t persuade anyone else to join me!  ), that loutish behaviour does not impress me much. But generally speaking, Australian crowds welcome supporters for the other team with humour and an appreciation for what they add to the atmosphere. And at least we cheer good cricket, no matter which side it comes from – Tendulkar’s ovation is a case in point. On the subcontinent a good shot or a wicket by one of our guys is met with deathly silence. Quite a contrast.

I do think the Symonds/Harbhajan incident could have been handled better. The question of sledging is a vexed one. Stephen Waugh used to call it “mental disintegration” and as mental strength is a big part of the game at this level, it will always be around. I think there is a big difference between passing a remark about a shot, or a good or bad ball etc and making personal remarks. I think for all their reputation re sledging, the Aussies generally are pretty careful to keep the comments to the performance or mindset of the players, rather than the players themselves, and this is where other teams who try to match the banter come unstuck sometimes.

And the question of poor umpiring has to lay at the feet of the Umpires and the ICC, not the players. At the moment the 3rd umpire comes from the host country – how long will it be until someone says he’s biased if the bulk of the decisions are referred to him? Umpires should have strict performance levels set. They should be regularly tested, and match performances reviewed (as I’m sure they are). If an umpire at the top level can’t meet the standards, they should go, regardless of age, country of origin, or politics. Better umpiring is the only answer. And technology? Mal Speed gave a really interesting interview on the ABC during the test match – listen at 

http://blogs.abc.net.au/grandstand/files/malcolm_speed_iv.mp3 

I do think the “hotspot” is worth using for catches, though. And stump mikes fed through to the ground umpires through an earpiece. 

As for Ponting.. I think he does a pretty good job under difficult circumstances. He's just different from Taylor and Waugh, more passionate perhaps, but as with most things in life, that's both a good thing and a bad thing, depending on what day of the week it is!

Maz


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## natashia (7 January 2008)

cuttlefish said:


> The whole intent of Australian sledging as I understood it was aimed to offend and rattle the opposing player - that involves saying things that are going to put them off their game - the more it bites and messes with their head the better. The reputation the Aussie's have (I don't know the reality, I've never stood on a field next to them during a match) is that they take it to the wire and will use whatever underhanded comments they can to get under the skin of the opposition.
> 
> What does that involve? I don't know, never heard it directly - maybe someone else could comment.
> For example, does australia's sledging tacticis include things like:
> ...






I totally and utterly agree 100000%


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## Knobby22 (7 January 2008)

Good reply Mazrox.
I would like to have you on the Australian Cricket Board rather than some of the present members.


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## Sean K (7 January 2008)

Australian Football has the shirtfront (practically outlawed)
Rugby League has the coathanger (slap on the wrist)
Union has the king hit (part of the game)
Soccer has the b!tch slap (declaration of war)
Cricket has the sledge (name calling????)

Golly.....:


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## doctorj (7 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> What about the 'catch' Ponting tried to claim which actually hit the ground? Or where he raised his finger to signal to the umpires that Ganguly had been caught out?



I believe he believed he caught it.  Looking at the replay, I’m not sure – but there’s no doubt it hit the glove.

He appealed for the Ganguly catch – big deal?  He heard a sound and saw a deflection.  Lets not get too righteous here, how many dodgy appeals did the Indians make for LBW in particular.  I don’t think any less of them for asking the question – if you have the slightest grounds for thinking something is out, you should appeal because it’s the only way a player can be given out.  And lets face it, unless you’re front and square on and not too far away, you’ll be making your assessment on an imperfect and incomplete data set.  It’s very easy to be sitting at home and be an armchair critic after watching a dozen replays with hawkeye, hotspot and snicko.  Trying doing it from an acute angle, in real time after you’ve been standing in the sun all day for 5 days straight!  You’re going to appeal for things that are not out all the time because you have it on a different angle.

Leave the sulking to the Indian players, staff and cricket board.  They’re doing enough for everyone already.  Even suggesting going home is very very poor form as far as I’m concerned!


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## ithatheekret (7 January 2008)

Less sticks and stones , more bat and ball ....... and beer


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## Broadside (7 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> The sub continent can only get the umpires sacked - not Australian Captains!
> 
> Punter did a great job, they won, he showed good sportsmanship (remember the catch he didn't claim) and fantastic leadership for the boys on the field.
> 
> What a load of sooks!  I read in the paper they're considering going home.  I thought people grew out of sulking before they were 10.  They lost, they need to move on and fight a good fight at the WACA.




Good sportsmanship?  where did he give credit to the Indians in the post match interview?  did he not throw his bat and show dissent when given out in the first innings?  yes that was a poor decision but it followed a poor decision 20 runs earlier when he was out!

Ponting is a great player but I don't respect his sportsmanship and the example he sets.

As for the umpires, they utterly crucified India.

I don't blame the Indians for spitting the dummy.  That Dravid decision was a disgrace as was Symonds when out for 30 in the first innings which cost India a chance of winning the match.

As for comparisons with Federer and Tiger Woods, they are great sportsman who are also humble and show great sportsmanship.  Ricky Ponting has a lot to learn.  :bad:


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## Sprinter79 (7 January 2008)

I wonder if people are getting 'gamesmanship' mixed up with 'sportsmanship'?

Let me get the record straight, racism has no place in any part of life, sport included, so if it was decided that Singh did make a racist remark, fine, let him suffer the consequences. The precedent has now been set however, and because racism is very much a perceived thing, depending on context, the Aussies now have to be very careful. Calling an Indian player a 'bus driver' for example, is a derogatory term, and if it is perceived to be a racist remark, well, then it is.

The problem I had with the umpiring during the test, and in any sport really, is that the umpires had too big a part to play in the final result. The best umpiring displays often go unnoticed, because, that's how it should be. Yes there are swings and roundabouts, but that doesn't change the fact that there were far too many mistakes, not evenly spread, that had an impact on the final result.

As for Ponting, its like the pot calling the kettle black. If things go against Australia, he's the first to complain. Anyone remember Glenn McGrath's problem with the West Indies? He gave it out, and couldn't cop it back. Classic case of the bully-boy.

This has now opened a can of worms, and the Australian behaviour will now be highly scrutinised for the slightest misdemeanour.


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## Dukey (7 January 2008)

Sprinter79 said:


> I wonder if people are getting 'gamesmanship' mixed up with 'sportsmanship'?
> 
> .......
> 
> This has now opened a can of worms, and the Australian behaviour will now be highly scrutinised for the slightest misdemeanour.




And so it should be I think - particularly regarding racist slurs. ....
Having said that - its a shame that some of the fun seems to have gone out of the game....  some of the sledges I found here are just hilarious.  
Best Cricket Sledges site

For umpires - seeing there are 3 already - why don't they rotate on and off the pitch - so each can spend a session in the shade, watching the TV monitors everyday???? might just help to take some pressure off.

more


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## doctorj (7 January 2008)

> The problem I had with the umpiring during the test, and in any sport really, is that the umpires had too big a part to play in the final result. The best umpiring displays often go unnoticed, because, that's how it should be. Yes there are swings and roundabouts, but that doesn't change the fact that there were far too many mistakes, not evenly spread, that had an impact on the final result.



As long as you have humans making the decisions, the outcome will always be imperfect.  Umpires in any sport will always do their best to make the right decision, because, lets face it, it’s much easier to get things right than deal with the fall out.  On top of that, officiating is competitive in itself.  These guys want to get a better ranking, a better review and ultimately the best appointments possible. 

So if you’re getting stuck into an umpire, you’re not questioning his ability (he’s been appointed to the game by someone else), you’re actually questioning their integrity.  You have to accept as a given that umpires will strive to achieve a 100% accuracy, because frankly, they personally have a lot at stake.  Particularly the modern cricket umpire – officiating is their livelihood, it’s what they do to put food on the table.  Without it, having spent years on the field, they really have a profession to fall back on.

So then, everyone here is questioning Bucknor’s integrity.  Did he care if India or Australia won the test?  If so, why?  If not, it’s a mistake and we should all move on and look at the next match.  




> As for Ponting, its like the pot calling the kettle black. If things go against Australia, he's the first to complain. Anyone remember Glenn McGrath's problem with the West Indies? He gave it out, and couldn't cop it back. Classic case of the bully-boy.



Ricky Ponting didn’t make the umpiring decision.  I don’t get how this is relevant.  He appealed some times where replays showed the batsman wasn’t out, but who doesn’t?  Ricky Ponting isn’t the one bringing the game into disrepute by abusing umpires like the Indians are.  He’s won the test and he’s happy.  And he’s certainly not focusing on the umpiring decisions that went against the Aussies during the test.




> This has now opened a can of worms, and the Australian behaviour will now be highly scrutinised for the slightest misdemeanour.



They are already.  This thread is the product of it.  

For the record, I don’t see the term ‘monkey’ as inherently racist.  I call people monkeys when they screw up all the time and certainly not in a racial context!  But then, context is important, and something that you and I are not privileged to.  If the Match Referee is satisfied that it was meant racially, then I’m for the suspension.


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## Broadside (7 January 2008)

Broadside said:


> Ricky Ponting didn’t make the umpiring decision.  I don’t get how this is relevant.  He appealed some times where replays showed the batsman wasn’t out, but who doesn’t?  Ricky Ponting isn’t the one bringing the game into disrepute by abusing umpires like the Indians are.  He’s won the test and he’s happy.  And he’s certainly not focusing on the umpiring decisions that went against the Aussies during the test.





I bet he's not...considering they went about 80% in favour of the Aussies.

Any objective observer could see that.  Symonds in the first innings was out in the 30s....as for Dravid yesterday?  did you see those incidents?  I am just fed up with Ponting and a couple of others who clearly dish it out but go running to mummy when they get whacked back.  I would say calling an Indian a bus driver is as racist as calling Symonds a monkey.


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## prawn_86 (7 January 2008)

Dukey said:


> And so it should be I think - particularly regarding racist slurs. ....
> Having said that - its a shame that some of the fun seems to have gone out of the game....  some of the sledges I found here are just hilarious.
> Best Cricket Sledges site




LOL they are gold Dukey!!


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## doctorj (7 January 2008)

> I bet he's not...considering they went about 80% in favour of the Aussies.
> 
> Any objective observer could see that. Symonds in the first innings was out in the 30s....as for Dravid yesterday? did you see those incidents? I am just fed up with Ponting and a couple of others who clearly dish it out but go running to mummy when they get whacked back. I would say calling an Indian a bus driver is as racist as calling Symonds a monkey.



97% of all statistics are made up!

I do agree that more than par went to the Aussies.  Who knows what will happen next match?

Remember the last ashes in England?  It went against Australia there and to a similar degree as it went against the Indians this match.  The Aussies didn’t threaten to pack up and go home though – they battled it out, right down to the last ball.  And then they came back to Australia and addressed their own short comings.

It’s easy to blame the officials for costing your team the game.  The reality is, you should look at your own performance and change what you have control of.  Train harder, run faster… whatever it is that let you down during the game.  And next time, put the game beyond doubt so the umpires can’t influence the result.


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## jonojpsg (7 January 2008)

I don't think Ponting should be sacked - but I definitely think that 2nd test was a farce.  When the Aussies 1st innings was basically supported by two innings that should not have been (Ponting & Symonds), and then the umpires are looking to Ponting to check whether Ganguly was out!!! (what is that????) How would he know if Clarke had caught the ball or not.

In my opinion, India won the test hands down, and the Aussies are a bunch of arrogant ............


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## Flying Fish (7 January 2008)

The Indians are just sore losers always have been. They will come up with any excuse to villify there claims. The facts are they were trounced, no two ways about it.


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## nomore4s (7 January 2008)

Dukey said:


> And so it should be I think - particularly regarding racist slurs. ....
> Having said that - its a shame that some of the fun seems to have gone out of the game....  some of the sledges I found here are just hilarious.
> Best Cricket Sledges site
> 
> ...






prawn_86 said:


> LOL they are gold Dukey!!




They are good but Number 10 left out the best bit, Bothams reply.

"The wifes fine but the kids are retarded"


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## Prospector (7 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> What about the 'catch' Ponting tried to claim which actually hit the ground? Or where he raised his finger to signal to the umpires that Ganguly had been caught out?
> 
> Punter is a great leader and player, but lets not get carried away about him being a good sport, because that he is not.
> 
> ...




Yup, have to agree with all of that!  Ponting knows he is out and doesnt walk - ok, that is fine because as my cricketing husband says, you are often given out when you are not out, so that is a 50/50 thing.  But then to carry on like a total jerk when he is given out and is not out, well, he wants his cake and eat it too.

I think Brett Lee has the right values too.  One thing which totally bugs me about some Australian bowlers - eg McGrath, MacGill, is the ANGER they show when they get someone OUT!  Like all they should have to do is bowl a ball and the player should get out, and get cross with them when they dont!  Bad attitude.
Pyrrhic Victory I think!


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## Prospector (7 January 2008)

Hey, that number 10 best comebacks is incomplete!  The best part of it is what Marsh said back to Botham!  - he totally turned it back on Botham

But I dont think I can actually write what was said in response - very politically incorrect.


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## arminius (7 January 2008)

good to see some interesting comments here. 

look, dont get me wrong, we have a great team that succeed where others might not. yet the national cricket team is more than just 11 blokes on an open space, and captaining that team is much more than telling his fielders where to stand. who sends india into bat on the 5th day having to face only 2 overs before lunch? yes they got jaffa, but our local under 15's coulda got him.

ponting will never get the sack, and he has presided over a good streak, but he will go down in history with a negative footnote.

ive never been one for electronic aid for umpires, esp lbw, but gee they were bad. i admit i was hoping india could hold on, after i had visions of y singh smashing 50 off 40 and setting up a nail biting win for india, and im not surprised the indians at home are going nuts. its not good. dukeys idea is good. rotate the 3 umps. we all know bad decisions are part of the game, but few expected so many crucial one sided errors. tends to focus the issue.

context is everything with the h singh thing. i doubt he was being viscious. heat of the mo stuff. again, ponting erred. he is not mature enough. 9/10 previous captains would have done things differently. his tactics would have failed on many occasions if the team did not produce brilliance on a regular basis. one should never rely on brilliance or luck though. if symonds was given out on 30, india win easily.

no one would say it, but i did. ponting is a poor captain, and though he wont get the hook, i think no other national skipper is more deserving. 

if nothing else, i'd love to see the spotlight fall on pontings captaincy in games to come.

lets hope perth restores some dignity to the game.


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## Pommiegranite (7 January 2008)

Trade_It said:


> we will just need to send Australia A to do that Frink. LOL




Haha!!..I think your under 18's could manage that. 

When England won the Ashes in 2005, I was telling mates "Shut up....stop overdoing the celebrating....England are touring Australia next year".

The rest is history.


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## Gspot (7 January 2008)

The Aussies lost the 2005 Ashes through some bad decisions. 
Damien Martin getting out twice, when he clearly wasn't in the second test, that we lost by a couple of runs. Went on to lose series 2-1.
Did we cry and whinge, saying we are going home early? No, we were humble and congratulating in defeat, then smashed them the next chance we got.
Unfortunately our media didn't headline and taint those games like they do now. Why do we eat our own, especially when we're doing well? Tall poppy syndrone is bigger than ever in this country.
Well done to the Aussies, Champions by a long way.


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## theasxgorilla (7 January 2008)

Australia = ruthless.

That's okay, you need a bit of the mongrel/b@stard in you to be a winning world-class cricketer.  This has been the case for a very long time.  That the Australian on-field 11 has had this in spades for over a decade goes a long way to explaining why they've also dominated this period of cricketing history.


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## Damuzzdu (7 January 2008)

Breaking news.

India has suspended it's Tour of Australia pending the outcome of the appeal against Singh.

I say sorry if you don't like decision, go home

Geez theese guys have short term memory problems. They gave us heaps in 2001 with some shocking decisions of our tour of the sub-continent, but Australia whilst not happy, kept on playing.

And if Kumble is so high and mighty about saying "That there was only one team playing within the spirit of the game yesterday" when he saw the Ponting LBW decision in the 1st dig, why didnt he rush down to the Umps and say "Oh he's not out, pls recall him" Oh no nothing like that.


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## doctorj (7 January 2008)

So does the list of ‘cheats’ according to Kumble’s Indian team now look something like this:
Proctor
Benson
Bucknor
Ponting
Gilchrist
Symonds
Clarke
Hayden
Jaques
Hussey
Lee
Clark
Johnson
Hogg

Sounds like it’s about time the Indians take some responsibility for their loss and focus on the next match. The ICC needs to lay the smack down on the BCCI for bringing the game into disrepute.

If the Indian Cricket team were traders they’d be broke long ago – the psychology clearly isn’t there!

Perhaps now the rules will be changed to allow a the use of the term ‘monkey’ a'la the straightening of the elbow rule.  Will Proctor/Bucknor/Benson go the way of Hair?


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## Broadside (7 January 2008)

Gspot said:


> The Aussies lost the 2005 Ashes through some bad decisions.
> Damien Martin getting out twice, when he clearly wasn't in the second test, that we lost by a couple of runs. Went on to lose series 2-1.
> Did we cry and whinge, saying we are going home early? No, we were humble and congratulating in defeat, then smashed them the next chance we got.
> Unfortunately our media didn't headline and taint those games like they do now. Why do we eat our own, especially when we're doing well? Tall poppy syndrone is bigger than ever in this country.
> Well done to the Aussies, Champions by a long way.




Not tall poppy, just ungracious and poor sportsmanship.  It's pretty simple really.  Did you hear the Aussies give any credit in the post match interview for the other team?  Ponting has no class, simple.


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## Aussie2Aussie (7 January 2008)

Well I find test cricket amazingly boring and am not a big fan of the sport; I do find our cricketers to be the biggest bunch of pompous drama queens around.

I can not think of one level headed, mature national player since Mark Taylor...
maybe McGrath.


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## surfingman (7 January 2008)

Aussie2Aussie said:


> I do find our cricketers to be the biggest bunch of pompous drama queens around.




I think soccer could be in hot contention for this prize.


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## Whitsy (7 January 2008)

Aussie2Aussie said:


> Well I find test cricket amazingly boring and am not a big fan of the sport; I do find our cricketers to be the biggest bunch of pompous drama queens around.
> 
> I can not think of one level headed, mature national player since Mark Taylor...
> maybe McGrath.




not so sure about McGrath being level headed...can remember countless times he used to talk and curse himself walking back to his mark.

do agree with you on tubby...he was/is a champ


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## chops_a_must (7 January 2008)

...


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## doctorj (7 January 2008)

Rumour has it Hogg has been reported by the Indian team to the match referee for calling a player a "bastard" and they're now claiming the use of the word "monkey" was actually a compliment as it is a revered hindu god.

Or so the story goes.


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## Aussie2Aussie (7 January 2008)

Very, very funny Chops.


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## godzillaismad (7 January 2008)

Well people, stop the debate. Ponting's team will achieve the most consecutive wins of all time. EA or Codemaster should release a cricket game to commenmorate their 'great' achieve, especially in achieving their 16th win... here' some suggestion for the Ponting special edition:

Shift + L = sledging while fielding
Shift + C = claiming a catch which is clearly not
Shift + A = appeal in agony and at all cost while using Brett Lee as a bowler, even the bat has clearly missed the ball or a ball going down leg for LBW
Shift + W = whole team appeal in agony for no apparent reasons
Shift + R = report other teams for sledging because they can't take it while they are the ones giving it to them. Note this feature is only available at the end of a test match.

Note those features should only be available when you use the Ponting team. No other teams have such features.

Anyone wants to add more? We should this to EA or Codesmaster soon.


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## doctorj (7 January 2008)

godzillaismad said:


> EA or Codemaster should release a cricket game to commenmorate their 'great' achieve, especially in achieving their 16th win... here' some suggestion for the Ponting special edition:



There wouldn't be an Indian team in the game because they'd all be too busy sulking!


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## chops_a_must (7 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> Rumour has it Hogg has been reported by the Indian team to the match referee for calling a player a "bastard" and they're now claiming the use of the word "monkey" was actually a compliment as it is a revered hindu god.



Unfortunately because of the way the Aussies have dealt with this, they are no longer going to be able to say anything to their opponents at all. Especially seeing as any derogatory comment is automatically now a racist one. 

Yeah you get bad decisions in every sport, but when they so clearly effect the outcome of the game, like they have done here, it is a problem. I'd say the biggest cause for concern is that Australian cricket games aren't allowed to be umpired by the best umpires, Australian ones. It's kind of a bad indictment when the ICC themselves admit by proxy that umpires aren't impartial.

Speaking of cricket teams sulking... anyone remember when Australia A almost beat Australia? 

If Sachin said Harbajhan didn't say anything, I would be more prepared to believe him. Given the player's reaction at the time, they just seemed to be totally confused. So, given the Aussies preparedness to win at all costs, it could well have been a ploy to get rid of the one bowler that has torn through them over many years. Anyone thought of that as the reason India is so steamed up?

It's surely a joke for Ponting to say to media to not question his integrity. I mean, he gave someone out FFS. Speaking of umpiring! And what integrity is there in that? Relying on someone who refused to walk when he nicked it to slips!!!! Something Kumble brought up. To me that says is all!

I just refuse to believe anything that the Australian cricket team says. Especially when it appears to be totally contrary to what Sachin appears to have said to his team, and the tribunal. One of the true champions, and fairest players ever to have played the game. I'd be more inclined to believe Kumble than I would any Australian player anyway (aside from Gilchrist).

I was watching squash last night, and there were some iffy calls with lets and strokes. But what got the players through it was good sportsmanship. Admittedly, to have a safe and good game of squash, you need to co-operate, but still, it led to little animosity between the players.

If you look at it another way, Australian domestic players earn more than international players of other countries earn. Yet, they seem unwilling to show any good good will at all. Disgusting.

Australia, you've gone too far. You are reaping the seeds of poor sportsmanship you have sewn. When people stand up to you, you behave like children, and monkeys, you can't handle it. Get some credibility back, show some respect and dislodge the cricket bat handles from your arses. And lead by way of example into a new generation of cricket and sportsmanship. One act does not a good sportsman make.

I fear when Australian cricket gets handed over to Michael Clarke. That will be an incredibly sad and dangerous day for sport in this country.


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## Wilson! (7 January 2008)

Ponting's complete arrogance, what a knob
I play the game each week myself for a grade side, and have played since I was able to walk almost

The game is now boring to watch, I used to get excited by it but no more

Ponting could have diffused it, what a joke, wrap them in bubble wrap, gee getting called names, how ever would they get over it???

What a joke, grow up boys, play the game and rib each other along the way - thats cricket!


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## Rocket man (7 January 2008)

Australia has been at the top of international cricket for so long and unfortunately it's become bad for the game. It's a fact that our cricket team is considered very arrogant abroad and as they are on show this taints Australia and Australians in a very bad light in general. I think it's just over confidence and the win at all costs attitude thats interpreted as arrogance. 

It's no secret that we are the worst sledgers and I would bet my bottom dollar that some comments have racial tones. Ponting turning around and complaining to judiciary is a little pathetic.

I think Ponting is our best batsman but basically a Tassie bogan and was never really up to the job as captain anyway. I agree ... bring on a new captain who leads the team by example who is respected for more than his cricket to try and change the team culture and team perception a bit to keep the great standard of cricket and play fair without all the BS. 

Either that or hire a PR firm


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## Wilson! (7 January 2008)

well said rocket man


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## 2020hindsight (7 January 2008)

well I don't have any serious problems with the players - just with the umpires .
They play hard - no sin there. 
True the sledging is probably a bit over the top - (even Gillie encouraging the bowlers gets pretty loud). - probably much of a muchness on both sides. (imo). 
But gee a warning to all sides there should have been enough (you'd think. ?)

PS (now you mention it, some of the Aussie appeals are a little unappealing too I guess )


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## wayneL (7 January 2008)

Question: Assuming we are mostly agreed that sportsmanship has taken a dive in recent years, do folks think that with respect to wider society, this is symptomatic or causative?

In other words, does our team win at "all costs" because society in general is turning this way, or is the team an example that society is following?


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## Lucky_Country (7 January 2008)

Australian cricket is at a crossroads who is there better than RP too lead them
Micheal Clarke too young jury still out on his performances.
Micheal Hussey umm not much younger than RP.
Whoever leads the side from now on will have too change the culture and win games on merit not sledging.


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## 2020hindsight (7 January 2008)

wayneL said:


> Question: Assuming we are mostly agreed that sportsmanship has taken a dive in recent years, do folks think that with respect to wider society, this is symptomatic or causative?
> 
> In other words, does our team win at "all costs" because society in general is turning this way, or is the team an example that society is following?




Wayne,
I reckon society is getting so cutthroat in all aspects - at least cricketers and tennisplayers usually congratulate eachother at the end - 
 but the likes of Gillie walking is just so damned refreshing - I'd reckon it was pretty unique!  (not that it isn't damned controversial).

But - take tennis 
What a nerd McEnroe was !! - worst sportsman I can recall 
Against the Bjorn Borgs (even the Agassis) of his day etc - 
which example are you gonna follow?


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## numbercruncher (7 January 2008)

wayneL said:


> Question: Assuming we are mostly agreed that sportsmanship has taken a dive in recent years, do folks think that with respect to wider society, this is symptomatic or causative?
> 
> In other words, does our team win at "all costs" because society in general is turning this way, or is the team an example that society is following?





I don't think its because Society in general is turning that way, society now, in general _is_ that way !

Most folks think they are Better, faster, smarter, more equal etc than the next, and its not just a Western Phenomena it appears to be Global - A few lessons in Respect and Coexistence should be mandatory for everyone with a licence to be Human I reckon 

Blame it on bubblevision


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## Lucky_Country (7 January 2008)

I think Rickys men win at all cost stratergy is because they still dont feel they get the credit they deserve from other cricketing nations.
The problem withy that thinking is they dont get the credit they deserve because of their win at all cost mentality.
Cricketing nations from across the globe dont enjoy the game againt Rickys boys because it is not played in the proper manner.
The buck stops with Ricky


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## theasxgorilla (8 January 2008)

Rocket man said:


> I think it's just over confidence and the win at all costs attitude thats interpreted as arrogance.




I've supported the Richmond Tigers for 30 years now and I know what it feels like to be gracious (compulsive) losers.  I'd take arrogance anytime.

BTW, Freddy Flintoff is a nice guy.  Oh, that's right, 5 - 0.  Nice guys finish last.


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## arminius (8 January 2008)

this is gathering steam. peter roebuck's jumped on the bandwagon. lol.

if things are not sorted out, there will be casualties, and the hallowed ground on which ponting walks has become somewhat shaky. 

what happens from here will be v interesting either way.


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## ithatheekret (8 January 2008)

bring Lehman back  ....... I like the big D. 

But this sledging thing is just like our market noise in a way , no need for it , other than a distraction .

There was a day the problem was 7/12ths of the team were 3 parts pissed , 70% of the time .

Have a drink Ponts and take off the girlie blouse F.F.S.


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## Aussiejeff (8 January 2008)

Lucky_Country said:


> I think Rickys men win at all cost stratergy is because they still dont feel they get the credit they deserve from other cricketing nations.
> The problem withy that thinking is they dont get the credit they deserve because of their win at all cost mentality.
> Cricketing nations from across the globe dont enjoy the game againt Rickys boys because it is not played in the proper manner.
> The buck stops with Ricky




Hmmm. I think the "win at all costs" mentality has a lot more to do with the COST part of that statement.

I think we would all agree that top class cricket is BIG BUSINESS these days. The top echelon of players in each country generally command considerable salaries, on top of which they earn considerable "performance" bonuses, considerable "match win" bonuses, and even more considerable "sponsorship bonuses & contracts".

So, the monetary rewards of firstly getting a spot and then HOLDING ONTO that spot in the top 11 would be a huge incentive. Should it then come as a surprise when players these days don't really want to walk? 

Honestly, would YOU offer to walk, if that decision to be "sportsmanlike" might just be the last innings you get to play in the top 11, thus costing you 10's of thousands of dollars in flow-on income? Many here offer Gillie as an example of a "sportsman" - I think he genuinely IS a nice bloke with a "sportsmanlike" disposition. But Gillie's position in the team has pretty well been sacrosanct for a long time - it's got to be much easier for a player to be "generous" with their "sportsmanship" qualities if they are not under intense scrutiny to retain their place in the team!   

In the end, this modern phenomenon of "un-sportsmanlike" behaviour across many sporting codes is a direct result of that "sport" being turned into big time business. The list of so-called "sports" beside cricket that have been tarnished by "poor sportsmanship" and greed after turning "professional" include soccer, rugby league, aussie rules, cycling, boxing, tennis and even golf has had it's "bad boys". It's just the way of our you-beaut modern "civilised" world and it will only get worse before it (if ever) gets better!

Chiz,

AJ


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## Aussiejeff (8 January 2008)

arminius said:


> .....
> ive never been one for electronic aid for umpires, esp lbw, but gee they were bad.....




I really can't see why the umpires in international matches that offer oodles of technology can't call for the 3rd umpire referral on ANY type of appeal - whether it is a "close" LBW appeal, "close" bat-pad appeal or whatever. I mean, the spectators don't seem to mind the ump calling for the screen on a close run-out appeal, stumping appeal or doubtful catch appeal, so why the negative talk by so many old school commentators (like Tony Greig etc) about extending the principle to doubtful LBW's or snicks?

It seems that doubtful edges and LBW's are by far the biggest headache for umps in international cricket, so why not encourage them to use the 3rd ump in close decisions? The current situation of not allowing them to use the technology (snickometer, hawk-eye and hot-spot) for those situations while letting every Tom, Dick or Harriett sit at home and see the conclusive footage (95% of the time) seems ludicrous to me. If the umps are not allowed to use it, then it should be withheld from public broadcast to prevent abuse of umps by a media that IS allowed to "benefit" from it.   

Chiz,


AJ


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## Prospector (8 January 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I fear when Australian cricket gets handed over to Michael Clarke. That will be an incredibly sad and dangerous day for sport in this country.




That's an interesting comment Chops!  Is it his taste in women? :

As a partner of someone who has played a lot of first class cricket, Australians have the reputation of being the worst sledgers.  And particular States known to have the worst cheats, deliberately badgering the umpires.

While umpiring decisions can influence the game and how it is played, in the most recent test match, they actually changed the outcome, and that is unforgivable and reeks of incompetence.  And that is the issue here.  And unfortunately the Australians exploited that incompetency to the fullest extent for maximum gain.  And that is what Kumble was referring to.  And for those who dont know him, Kumble is VERY HIGHLY regarded as an honourable person in the cricket world, and not just in India!


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## Broadside (8 January 2008)

Prospector said:


> That's an interesting comment Chops!  Is it his taste in women? :
> 
> As a partner of someone who has played a lot of first class cricket, Australians have the reputation of being the worst sledgers.  And particular States known to have the worst cheats, deliberately badgering the umpires.




Hi Prospector, which states have the worst reputation for sledging?

Lara Bingle lost all credibility after she broke up with Fevola, what was she thinking? he is a bona fide superstar.


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## Prospector (8 January 2008)

Broadside said:


> Hi Prospector, which states have the worst reputation for sledging?
> 
> Lara Bingle lost all credibility after she broke up with Fevola, what was she thinking? he is a bona fide superstar.




She lost her cred when she started with him!  What was she thinking! :

East coast is all I say about the cheating


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## Mazrox (8 January 2008)

This is certainly the topic of the moment! I think it’s rather a pity we (society as a whole) don’t get as passionate about much more important things (and that’s a true Tragic speaking…)

However, since it seems to be the current discussion point, I’ll add another small observation or two to my post of yesterday:

I do think Ponting should have been more gracious in victory by seeking Kumble out on the field to shake hands and that this would have gone some way to tempering Kumble’s feelings of injustice or whatever. Kumble is a man of honour, and his disappointment was palpable. It’s a lesson Ponting should learn, and quickly, but otherwise the events and the aftermath were not of his making.

The hoo-ha is all about the reaction to what happened, rather than the incidents themselves, which is a pity. And I do think the Indians need to accept that their reaction has been out of proportion to the events. Yes, they were on the wrong end of some bad umpiring, yes, the penalty for Harbhajan seems harsh, yes, it’s disappointing to lose a test match when you have been right in it til the end. But threatening to pick up your bat and go home if you don’t get your way is no way to react. Kids learn that one in the back yard before they’re out of nappies.

I wonder where we would be at this moment if the shoe had been on the other foot? If one of our guys had been cited and banned for calling someone a curry-muncher or whatever, if we had lost a tight test match on the back of some dubious umpiring (wouldn’t be the first time – remember Craig McDermott v Windies? – and won’t be the last), I somehow think that we wouldn’t be crying foul and refusing to play the next match.

I just think everyone needs to keep a bit of perspective in all this.

A caller to ABC 702 this morning made an interesting point – that all this hoo-ha has been made bigger than it is in order to deflect the Indian public from laying the blame for the defeat at the feet of the Indian team. 

It's something that had not crossed my mind - but is definitely food for thought.

Maz

PS For what it's worth, I think Hussey would be a terrific captain, and he'd be my pick, but I don't think Ponting has done anything sackable or irretrievable. Just needs to be some common sense and calm on all sides - Australia, India and the ICC - and the Press!!


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## petervan (8 January 2008)

If I understand this correctly no umpires or T.V sound heard anything out there but 4 players from one team heard one thing and 2 players said something else.One would expect in the next game groups of Indian players reporting Australian players for racism knowing as long as know one else hears and you have the numbers they will get suspended.Set a dangerous precident


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## Prospector (8 January 2008)

I saw the footage of the incident yesterday - only Symonds and HarbLucky_Countryan were in close proximity, Hayden walked past, but didn't react  - which is rather strange, if his best mate had been called something racist.

India didnt lose the Test; if you evaluate the errors (eg Symonds when he in was in his thirties) and the 'outs' in the last couple of hours, well, they didnt stand a chance.  That and the Australian's arrogant reaction to their 'win' - well - can't blame the Indian team really!


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## Rafa (8 January 2008)

Prospector said:


> I saw the footage of the incident yesterday - only Symonds and HarbLucky_Countryan were in close proximity, Hayden walked past, but didn't react  - which is rather strange, if his best mate had been called something racist.
> 
> India didnt lose the Test; if you evaluate the errors (eg Symonds when he in was in his thirties) and the 'outs' in the last couple of hours, well, they didnt stand a chance.  That and the Australian's arrogant reaction to their 'win' - well - can't blame the Indian team really!




look, frankly, i have no problems with teams taking their bat and ball and walking off the field... when something is blatantly unjust and unfair...

I have often felt in some AFL games, that one team is getting such a bad run with the umps, they should simply walk out...

after all, this is sport, you play it for the fun of it... but if the governing body and umpires ruin that fun.... why bother....

I'd rather teams stop playing and force change for the better, than simply keep going thru to motions just for the sake of money.

And as for punter ponting... i have no problems whatsover with the way we play our cricket... ponting isn't my choice of captain, that would be gilchrist, but heck, its not that big a deal... 

there are bigger issues here, and that begins and ends with technology... if would not be surprised that the reason technology has not been brought in, is because it makes it easier for the indian bookmakers to match fix...

i think if the indian team do walk out, and technology is brought into the game, it would be a huge blow for the match fixing industry... (and i would think the indian players would be the ones most sick of the illegal bookmakers anyway...)

there are only positives to come out of this...


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## hugh44 (8 January 2008)

i am aussie. i love cricket, footy, beer. 
ive felt this for a long time, and after the second test i am certain. 
ponting should go. 
he does not have the attributes of an australian captain. 
relieve ricky ponting of the captaincy.


*You may claim to be an Aussie but you're also an idiot!*


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## arminius (8 January 2008)

aussiejeff, 
all things being equal, the only person qualified to make an lbw decision is the umpire. angle, height, pitch nick etc. hawkeye is fallible. with 2/3 appeals each over, and going upstairs each time, a test would lose all momentum. 
99% of umpires get the decision right 99% of the time. bucknor had a shocker. no two ways about it, and if he cant get those decisions right, esp symonds-1st dig, he should recognise that he is past his prime. be nice if he spoke up and said' hey fellas, if i cant get those ones i have no place here'. eyesight and hearing fail with age- its a fact of life.

cricket needs a scapegoat, and steve b may fall on his sword. nice guy, sad finish is this happens.


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## arminius (8 January 2008)

good on ya hugh. 

why do you reckon that eh, cause i bag the aust captain? this controversy aside, he makes some very ordinary tactical decisions v often. in this test alone we were in a very winnable situation with a day and a bit to go and he very nearly blew it. he also took the contest away. 
get rid of him.


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## Mazrox (8 January 2008)

Just read Greg Baum's piece in the Sydney Morning Herald.

Worth reading - here is the link:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/cricket/...-up-and-move-on/2008/01/07/1199554571857.html

Maz


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## cuttlefish (8 January 2008)

Ponting should go - his antics at the end of the match were childish.  

Regardless of what he felt inside he had a leadership responsibility to not act like a gloating Galah  (is calling someone a Galah racist?) but instead take the opportunity to show some humility and put things right.  

He didn't and so he should go - he's not up to the job and because of his lack of leadership he has actually cost his team the recognition they did deserve for their efforts in the game.

Had he tackled both the Singh situation, and the end of game celebrations only a little bit differently he would have left India with their deserved dignity for playing a very good match under difficult circumstances and in doing so also obtained credibility and increased respect for his own team and their win.

Captaincy of the Australian team, like any leadership role, requires more than just on-field technical skills - it also requires the personal skills that go with the job - there's an element of the statesman required in the role that he hasn't got.  

Nobody likes a gloating showoff, particularly in the face of a questionable win - so a whole team of them isn't exactly going to win a lot of respect.  

Ponting had the opportunity to be gracious in victory and create a positive aura around the whole event - he didn't take it - he clearly put no effort into even considering this aspect of the situation - thats a lack of foresight and a lack of leadership - and he's let his own team down through his actions as much as anyone else.


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## wildmanchris (8 January 2008)

Prospector said:


> I saw the footage of the incident yesterday - only Symonds and HarbLucky_Countryan were in close proximity, Hayden walked past, but didn't react  - which is rather strange, if his best mate had been called something racist.
> 
> India didnt lose the Test; if you evaluate the errors (eg Symonds when he in was in his thirties) and the 'outs' in the last couple of hours, well, they didnt stand a chance.  That and the Australian's arrogant reaction to their 'win' - well - can't blame the Indian team really!




Im a kiwi - so dont really care cause we suck.  However:

* Symonds is a great player, but im sure monkey isnt the worst that has been said to him and im sure he's said worst in his time.  Maybe the heat of a pretty tight test set them off and needed to throw India.  That comment should have been left on the pitch, the Aussies just got precious (surprise surprise).

* Sure Aussie wins alot, and might not be good for the game but the public EXPECT this now.  The **** they cop when they dont win is massive and they are written off pretty quick until the next win.

* India did loose.  Umpires, should haves, could haves - the result is in the book regardless of how **** the test was.

* Ponting may be a bogun, and not a great tactical captain but he's a leader and to quote Shane Warne from Parkinson he does a lot of great things as a captain.  From my point of view he's carried Aussie cricket fairly well in the last few years considering world cricket has some pretty good players around.  But agree, he handled this one pretty badly and probably knows it.

* Last, but not least - just play the game.  Small issue, taken up way too much news time as it fairly pedantic.  

Time to get the monkey off the back so to speak......


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## Happy (8 January 2008)

Hope cricket-governing body is not going to be intimidated by anyone.


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## doctorj (8 January 2008)

Apparently they've refused India's demand of replacing Bucknor in the Perth test.  The skeptic in me can't help but wonder if it's got more to do with the lack of top panel umpires than wanting to stand up to the BCCI.


----------



## prawn_86 (8 January 2008)

Its all been massively over sensationalised in the press.

Sure its a big story, but surely not head story on every news bulletin?

If the press didnt get involved no one would have cared by now, except for maybe the Indians back at home, but thats up to their press not ours.

Damn journalists...


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

Time for a peacekeeper to stand up ...    (Bhogle is a reasonable man after all) 
getting completely out of hand...

(H's ban on top of India being robbed is bound to make anyone unhappy - imo)

Why don't they find another umpire  - ANY other umpire than Bucknor (you might be right doc, there aren't any lol)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/08/2134013.htm?section=justin


> Ban all sledging now: Bhogle
> Posted 23 minutes ago
> Updated 18 minutes ago
> ABC Grandstand guest commentator Harsha *Bhogle has called for sledging to be completely banned *from cricket, as the sport reels from the stand-off over India's tour of Australia.
> ...




PS 
Bring back Darrel Hair maybe ??  

Then again,  this from 1999 
http://www.spur.asn.au/The_Daily_Telegraph_Death_Threat_to_Hair.htm


> Cricket Umpire Receives a Death Threat from LTTE Tamil Tiger Terrorists


----------



## Prospector (8 January 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> If the press didnt get involved no one would have cared by now, except for maybe the Indians back at home, but thats up to their press not ours.
> 
> Damn journalists...




Never a truer word was said....or should that be written.  Trouble is, that statement applies to everything!

These days, everything is Media driven.  

And the galah joke - that is an interesting observation.

The ICC must bring in current technology, or else ban Channel 9 from using their gizmos.  At the moment, the umpires make their human mistakes, and Channel 9 crucifies them.  And the ICC leaves the umpires out to dry


I thought Ponting showed his immaturity and arrogance when, in the media interview, a journalist questioned his right to be captain.  Ponting's reply was to say that if that reporter questioned his capacity as Captain, then he should not be at the interview!   Oh, I get, Ponting only wants to talk to people who like him and don't question him! Sheesh, the height of arrogance.
Maybe he should get a real job someday!

Raising another point, players like Ponting left school to join the Cricket Academy.  So they go from one kind of school to another, very sheltered one, and really dont see the 'real world'.  And always in an environment that worships them - gives them a distorted impression of their worth.  What do others think?


----------



## doctorj (8 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Why don't they find another umpire - ANY other umpire than Bucknor (you might be right doc, there aren't any lol)



As far as I'm concerned, retaining Bucknor on the next test was the only option.  A nation shouldn't be able to pick and choose their match officials.

Umpires have a hard enough job as it is without having to worry that they're likely to get the boot if they make a decision one of the teams don't agree with.


----------



## Whiskers (8 January 2008)

Mazrox said:


> Just read Greg Baum's piece in the Sydney Morning Herald.
> 
> Worth reading - here is the link:
> 
> ...





In any dispute situation you have to look at the evidence in sequence.

As Greg Baum says;


> It began with Australian captain Ricky Ponting's double standard and mute protest when dismissed on the first day




And ponting filed the 'racism' complaint in the end. 

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

When you look at Pontings record as detailed on Wikipedia, I think we can do better for a captain. I'd reckon his days are numbered.

*Controversies*

Ponting was involved in a fight outside a pub in Kings Cross, New South Wales in early 1999, and earned a suspension from the national team.[43] 
During Australia's tour of India in 1998, Ponting was reportedly thrown out of Equinox night club in Calcutta. The Indian papers reported that Ponting was misbehaving with several women in the nightclub. Ponting was fined for this incident, and later apologised to the nightclub staff.[44] 
During the 4th Test of the 2005 Ashes series, at Trent Bridge, *Ponting was angrily outspoken about the use of substitute fielders by the England side, particularly after being run out by such a substitute*. He directed an abusive tirade at the England dressing room and was subsequently fined 75% of his match fee.[45] 
After England won the match to take a 2-1 lead in the series Ponting returned to the subject of substitutes in an interview with Australian radio *"I think it's an absolute disgrace the spirit of the game is being treated like that. It is within the rules; it's just not within the spirit of the game" he said*. The England coach Duncan Fletcher later commented on this incident: "He [Ponting] completely blew his top. I did not actually think it at the time but, looking back now, that might be the moment when it became clear that England were going to regain the Ashes."[46] 
In 2005 he began using cricket bats with a graphite covering over the wooden blade of the bat. This covering was ruled by the MCC to have contravened Law 6.1, which states that bats have to be made of wood, although they may be "covered with material for protection, strengthening or repair not likely to cause unacceptable damage to the ball". Ponting and his bat supplier, Kookaburra Sport, agreed to comply.[47][48] 
Ponting has been fined for dissent on more than one occasion.[49] 
After the final of the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy, Ponting drew some criticism for appearing to ask BCCI president Sharad Pawar to "leave the podium" so his team could commence celebrations. The issue, while minor, was solved when Ponting issued a formal apology to Pawar.[50][51] 
After the 2nd Test of 2007-08 series against India, Ponting and the Australian Cricket team were criticized by the media and several former and present cricket personalities, for playing the match contrary to the spirit of the game. [52][53][54]. The Sydney Morning Herald went on with the headlines, Arrogant Ponting must be fired. [55]


----------



## YELNATS (8 January 2008)

arminius said:


> relieve ricky ponting of the captaincy.
> 
> strategy. tactics. diplomacy. sportsmanship. subtlety. wisdom.
> not in his vocab.
> ...




Ricky was appointed to get results, ie. to win. He has achieved 16 wins on end. Yes, too successful, better sack him. 

Damned either way.


----------



## Broadside (8 January 2008)

YELNATS said:


> Ricky was appointed to get results, ie. to win. He has achieved 16 wins on end. Yes, too successful, better sack him.
> 
> Damned either way.




They should probably sack those who chose him.  He was an accident waiting to happen.  Can't get rid of him now, just try to educate him in basic diplomacy and hope for the best.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=343507


> Bucknor won't umpire third Test in Perth
> 17:21 AEST Tue Jan 8 2008
> Latest Cricket:
> 
> ...



well done fellas


----------



## subi1 (8 January 2008)

India had 3 wickets left with 4 overs to go . I am sure everybody watching thought it was going to be a draw. 3 fantastic balls by Clarke and good catches by hussey and the game was over. I can't see how anybody can blame the umpires for that.

There was also a interview with Singh on the tv where he was saying the carry on in India wasn't acceptable. So if in fact he did call Symmonds a 
monkey it seems fair that he should be held responsible.

The umpiring was obviously pretty poor but I can't see how that is Australia's fault and I have definately seen matches lost by Australia with a few bad decisions aiding the opposition.

Ponting is obviously an excellent captain and I think this is backed up by the fact that we are still winning after losing Warne,Mcgrath and Langer.


----------



## Broadside (8 January 2008)

subi1 said:


> Ponting is obviously an excellent captain and I think this is backed up by the fact that we are still winning after losing Warne,Mcgrath and Langer.




If winning is all that matters the facts speak for themselves, he is a good captain.  If you value sportmanship and how we are portrayed through our cricket team (complete lack of humility and grace after they won on Sunday) you may have a different opinion, like I do.


----------



## doctorj (8 January 2008)

Absolutely woeful, disgusting and revolting.  

As a sports official myself, words cannot describe how angry this makes me.

Bucknor is one of the best umpires going around.  It's such a shame the ICC is subservient to the BCCI.

What message does this send?
a) It's ok to abuse sports officials, you'll get away with it and even rewarded
b) We don't value the contribution our officals make to the game
c) Don't make a call against India, you may get the boot
d) If India doesn't win, it's not their fault but someone else’s
e) The umpires are no longer independent
f) The ICC are redundant
g) All of the above

The ICC has a very rigorous performance assessment framework for their umpires.  If Bucknor was found to be under-performing versus a set of benchmarks, then I’m all for him to be cut.  What I’m not in favour of is teams being allowed to get away with bullying umpires.


----------



## Broadside (8 January 2008)

doctorj, do you think Bucknor's performance warrants further selections?  India has muddied the water calling for his sacking, but it doesn't mean he shouldn't be!  I thought his performance was sub standard.


----------



## doctorj (8 January 2008)

Broadside said:


> doctorj, do you think Bucknor's performance warrants further selections?



I don’t know - I don’t know what rules and standard practices the ICC have in place, but I do know that the very last group that should have a say in an umpire’s appointments and that’s the team that lost the umpire’s last game!

Also, you’d have to be pretty hard pressed to argue that someone deserves to be sacked after one or two bad decisions in a single game after years of top performances at the highest level.

It’s like saying Tiger Woods is crap at golf after a couple of bad shots in a round!


----------



## OK2 (8 January 2008)

Ponting is a great cricket player but not a role model that you want as a leader. He would of spat the dummy heaps of times in his early days of playing cricket.

Sack the Cricket Board while they are at it. It is hardly an Australian Team, mainly NSW players and not one Victorian player despite leading the Pura Cup in recent years.

Time for a review before we lose our position in world cricket.


----------



## Broadside (8 January 2008)

I reckon Bucknor has been past it for quite a while.  I agree the BCCI shouldn't be the ones doing it.  Get used to it, cricket administration has been weak for a long, long time and now the BCCI has all the money/power, and money talks.  A shame it takes this to get cricket onto the front pages again, I think the sport itself is in a very unhealthy state as witnessed by jumping onto gimmicks like 20/20, because One Dayers became boring and predictable and test cricket is utterly dominated by one nation (not Australia's fault, but that's how it is! sport is dull without a contest!)


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> Absolutely woeful, disgusting and revolting.
> 
> As a sports official myself, words cannot describe how angry this makes me.
> 
> ...




h) that if you are an international umpire, and you make a string of bad decisions heavily favouring one side, including not hearing a snick that was heard in the pavilion - that you're past it.  

as pointed out above - 7 errors (or whatever) is getting on to be an innings - assuming good batsman involved - obviously we are pretty likely to win a match when we have 2 innings to their one and a bit   

I'm agreeing that it's not easy to umpire and get all decisions right - but IN THESE DAYS OF INSTANT video replays - when the audience know errors as soon as they are called - then as discussed on another thread - it's time for the umpiring techniques to move with the times  (imo)


----------



## Rocket man (8 January 2008)

the poor guy .. Bucknor gives his life to cricket umpiring and generally does a good job and one bad day will probably lead to the end of his career... hes been harshly treated ... ICC are just pandering to the Indians a bit


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

Rocket man said:


> ... and one bad day will probably lead to the end of his career...




the Indians are claiming more than one incident apparently ...

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2008/jan/06bucknored.htm


> The umpire has a history of confrontations with the Indian team. We take a look at some of past such instances:
> 
> Steve Bucknor v India
> 
> ...





> 1998-99: India vs Pakistan, Kolkata
> 
> Shoaib Akhtar [Images] obstructs Sachin Tendulkar [Images] as he fails to make it to the crease. Bucknor turns a blind eye and refers the matter to the TV umpire. As the red light flashes and Tendulkar walks to the dressing room, Eden erupts.
> 
> Result: Pakistan won





> 2003-04: India vs Australia, Brisbane
> 
> Tendulkar is given out lbw when the ball hit on a knee roll and the line was just outside the off-stump. The bowler was Jason Gillespie and India slips after a good start.
> 
> Result: Match drawn





> 2003-04: India vs Australia, Sydney
> 
> India is on the verge of history of a series win on the final day. Bucknor refuses a number of close leg-before decisions against the Aussies. India falls short of time. Skipper Sourav Ganguly in his post-series report to ICC gives Bucknor very poor ratings with adverse comments.
> 
> Result: Match drawn





> 2003-04: India vs Pakistan, Lahore [Images]
> 
> India is already on the backfoot in the series for the first time after an awful batting display. Five opportunities missed while bowling, four of them adjudicated by Bucknor. This forces Indian coach John Wright [Images] to complain to match-referee Ranjan Madugalle during the day's play.
> 
> Result: India lost





> 2004-05: India vs Pakistan, Kolkata
> 
> Sachin Tendulkar walked back to the dressing room with tears in his eyes as Bucknor (standing in his 100th Test) declared him out at 52 after his bat clearly missed the ball sent down by Abdul Razzaq [Images] and none of the Pakistanis, other than the bowler, appealed.
> 
> Result: India won




(Personally I reckon he should be allowed back - but with the option to use the third umpire more often - either at his request or at the request of one or other captain ( limit per game - as already being considered by ICC - file reopened apparently - as per the other thread on "sports technology".   )


----------



## subi1 (8 January 2008)

I actually can't see what is wrong with celebrating a win. We were trying to win and did. I saw quite a few of our players congratulating the indian players(Tendulkar and Laxman) when they made their fantastic centuries. We were playing hard, playing for the win fairly and we were successful.

Maybe I missed something but I can't see how having a group celebration  after pulling off a fantastic victory is bad or arrogant. Ponting always seems to be well spoken and gracious and also very happy to be winning.


----------



## Rocket man (8 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> the Indians are claiming more than one incident apparently ...
> 
> http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2008/jan/06bucknored.htm
> 
> ...




interesting 20/20hindsight ... thanks for the post

maybe Bucknor has been on the bookie payroll for years .. its always the quiet ones


----------



## doctorj (8 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> the Indians are claiming more than one incident apparently ...



Geez, if the teams I ref kept such detailed notes of all the wrong or debatable calls I made against them there'd be enough evidence to suggest that I 'cheat' against each and every one of them.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

Lol, m8,  think I've already mentioned - when I used to play and umpire hockey in HK, (each team was usually of one nationality - Chinese clubs, Uni etc , a few European clubs, Macanese Portugese, Hindus, Sikhs, Moslems, etc)  - 

but when the Moslems played the Hindus, lol, they were only ever happy if a European umpired (as against from one of other of their faith)


----------



## doctorj (8 January 2008)

For those jumping on Roebuck's anti-Ponting bandwagon, have a read of this excellent post at another forum (by poster ty.webb).



> But let Mr. Roebuck speak for himself:
> 
> "Probably the worst aspect of the Australians' performance was their conduct at the end; When the last catch was taken they formed into a huddle and started jumping up and down like teenagers at a rave."
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

:topic
Speaking of umpiring and attitudes of umpires, towards umpires/refs, ...

SOCCERR!! - boy I have problems watching the dives and the like  - and also the attitude of many refs.  

I sat in when my boys did a refereeing course.  
the speel was that "mustn't deviate from the smallest sub-sub subclause of the rulebook etc" - constant drumming in that "you could otherwise be sued" etc ???

Anyway - the bloke giving the lesson (had some sort of problem if you ask me) ... he asks them " so you turn up, and the corner of the field where corner kicks would be taken is (locally) under 2 inches of water, - but game is on and notified as such, -  ok, in due course they need to take a kick from that corner - what do you do?"

kids come up with some good ideas if you ask me - combined contribution from them went something like - "move it a few metres along one or other line, as agreed with captains beforehand"... 

"NO ABSOLUTELY NOT" sez the teacher.  
I thought "what the ..."

"No, the groundsman has ruled the field ok to play on, and you can't amend anything.  They kick from the corner, flooded or not !"  

I thought to myself "what a strange attitude" !

Well the second part of the story - the next week he turned up to talk to the kids, - he had umpired on the weekend in the meantime - he had a black eye.  I thought to myself "surprise surpise"  

...........................

Quick comment also about soccer dives (and being TAUGHT to dive in some teams) - I once watched the kid's team break away and looked like scoring (at the time they were maybe 12 year olds) - You wouldn't believe what happened if you didn't see it ....

- a kid on the other team looked to his dad (their coach) beside me - got the nod, pretended to fall down tripped , - noone within miles of him, 20 yards behind the play ! - the father / coach runs onto the field calling out " ref ref ! - player down !!"  and the game stopped.  Sure our team kicked off after time-out finished, but we'd lost all our momentum   Bludy marvellous I thought to myself  - teaching 12 year olds to cheat .

PS I reckon they should have a rule "Anyone who is given a freekick under controversial circumstances, milked by rolling around on the ground for more than 20 seconds - and who subsequently doesn't show any sign of any damage - should show cause then and there why he shouldn't take a ten minute rest - or more - on the side line. !


----------



## doctorj (8 January 2008)

Great story.  I see so much of it all the time - most officials get so stuck in the rules they miss the big picture.

Incidentally, if that were me and I didn't feel the area of play was safe to play on, I'd be inclined to exercise a duty of care and postpone the game in consultation with tournament officials.

I personally find if you spend as much time as possible talking to players on the field and off the game will take care of itself.  90% of officiating is rapport and communication.


----------



## rhen (8 January 2008)

It surely brings the "_experts"_ out of the woodwork...those of the sycophantic type ruled by politcal correctness gone silly and a deprecating piety (you did call yourself Arminius) to a cricket higher being...

Memories are short, and I quote from an article posted on October 12, 2007 by crickinfo :

http://infosports.wordpress.com/200...ed-in-india-say-australian-cricket-officials/
_The abuse was widely reported in Australian newspapers, with the Sydney Morning Herald saying the monkey chants were similar to those that have plagued European football for years.

Sydney’s Daily Telegraph said thousands of spectators were involved in the abuse, prompting ground authorities to flash the International Cricket Council’s anti-racism code on the replay screen.

The Australian newspaper quoted Baroda Cricket Association chief executive Makarand Waingankar as saying he was disappointed with the Vadodara crowd’s behaviour.

“Like any cricket centre we cannot tolerate this sort of behaviour; racism should not exist in India,” Waingankar said.

Symonds has been involved in a running feud with Indian paceman Shantha Sreesanth during the tour of the subcontinent.

The Indian series has been clouded by ill temper, stemming in part from discontent within the Australian camp at the way India’s players celebrated their semi-final win over Australia in the Twenty20 World Cup in South Africa
_

Who were those gentlemen assuring us that there was no malintent by the term "monkey" applied to Symonds? 

And...
Was that a turbaned gentleman rolling over the ground in celebration at a significant point in the match? Is that the way Aussies have to celebrate then?

I may not agree with some of Ponting's strategies but he is an effective captain, captaining a team in the 21st century...

By the way, ICC now means Indian Cricket Council?

_When my heart whispers peace, I am more content that a person could possibly imagine._http://ctcthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/11/peace-be-with-you.html


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> For those jumping on Roebuck's anti-Ponting bandwagon, have a read of this excellent post at another forum (by poster ty.webb).



a few tangential (and/or strawman?) arguments in that article imo ... 
a) the Indians were dudded out of a the game by bad umpiring, and
b) on top of that they get a heavy fine for arguably a pretty minor sledge, with only Aussies as witnesses. 

(imo)   ..as for Ponting and his attitude, I wouldn't criticise him unduly - he plays hard, pushes his luck every which way with sledging, wins plenty,  occasionally does a "Pont" (i.e. noun - a defence whereby you claim not to remember anything after 11pm) , a trail of apologies,  possibly inconsistent with his "what happens on the field stays on the field" etc  

..    I personally think Border and Steve Waugh had more diplomacy about them.  (imo)  

but if the umpires pulled him into line for sledging (as they are sure to do to EVERYONE in Perth), then most of the problems would go away, yes?.  imo anyway.


----------



## Prospector (8 January 2008)

I heard today that the Australian's called Jayasuriya a 'spider monkey' and Healey made a very offensive comment to the Sri Lankan captain.  They dish out but cant take it.

Bucknor - I like him but he has made significant errors which call for a performance review. Sorry Drj but if Bucknor (in your opinion) is one of the best we have, then we have a problem.  He simply isnt up to it, but the manner of his replacement is typical ICC - the soft target.  But he should have retired years ago.


----------



## doctorj (8 January 2008)

I'll be wearing a black arm band at the WACA test in honour of Bucknor and I know several others that will be doing the same.


----------



## Miner (8 January 2008)

arminius said:


> i am aussie. i love cricket, footy, beer.
> ive felt this for a long time, and after the second test i am certain.
> ponting should go.
> he does not have the attributes of an australian captain.
> ...




Probably yes specially when he has supported 100% whatever Ricky has done.


----------



## Miner (8 January 2008)

*Re: Ricky Ponting should NOT be sacked*



doctorj said:


> I'll be wearing a black arm band at the WACA test in honour of Bucknor and I know several others that will be doing the same.



Of course and raise the name of Aussies far more in front of cricket lovers.
Good work mate. Would you also shed some tears for the abnormal originals of Australians who were killed vehemently by the invading pirates  from outside Australia some 200 years back ? None of my business as I do not what happened then. Just curious to see your love and affection for the bookies and hence Bucknor.


----------



## wayneL (9 January 2008)

*Re: Ricky Ponting should NOT be sacked*



Miner said:


> Of course and raise the name of Aussies far more in front of cricket lovers.
> Good work mate. Would you also shed some tears for the abnormal originals of Australians who were killed vehemently by the invading pirates  from outside Australia some 200 years back ? None of my business as I do not what happened then. Just curious to see your love and affection for the bookies and hence Bucknor.



Whoa! The strawman returns! LOL


----------



## Miner (9 January 2008)

rhen said:


> It surely brings the "_experts"_ out of the woodwork...those of the sycophantic type ruled by politcal correctness gone silly and a deprecating piety (you did call yourself Arminius) to a cricket higher being...
> 
> Memories are short,
> 
> ...




*Good pun.*I_ think current ICC is headed by Mr Malcolm Speed who is an Australian Citizen and was interviewed by ABC TV tonight. End of the day it is big money game. If India forfeit the match then Australian Cricket Council would have lost $20 M and Indian Cricket Council $2 M towards fine. It was 1: 10 leverage. End of the day money speaks and spoken. 

I have never posted so many responses to a single thread at a time. It is because I am a cricket lover and more to that a human being who believes dignitiy and honesty do not cost any money to apply but loses a hell out of it if some one does not have it. 

Regards_


----------



## doctorj (9 January 2008)

*Re: Ricky Ponting should NOT be sacked*



wayneL said:


> Whoa! The strawman returns! LOL



And not to mention a segue of Anna Coren-like proportions!


----------



## arminius (9 January 2008)

steady on rhen. i hardly think im being sychophantic or pious. i called for punters head a day before roebuck put anything to print. 

theres a lot of issues being canvassed here. i think you are getting confused pal.

i dont like ponting as a captain for several reasons. i dont really care how much he celebrated after 3 wickets in 5 balls, but i do care that he neglects his duties as an australian cricket captain. a full explanation would take a page so we'll leave that for a bit.

we all know that bucknor was thrown to the wolves but he has had an absolute shocker. could u imagine the uproar if the situation was reversed!

the actions of the indian board was very ordinary, holding the tour to ransom, but part of me accepts it. essentially we called sachin tendulkar, one of sports greatest figures, a liar in front of the world.  

i dont think proctor was the best bloke to pass judgement, considering the racial problems back home. he was always going to be oversensitive.

of course we play hard. thats ok. we win often. thats ok. however we all want a contest, we all prefer humility, fairness and justice. justice wasnt done on sunday and the cricketing world explodes. 

but ponting is a great cricketer in the wrong job. too many errors over time that have been propped up by a talented team. one more..opening with johnson and not clark. indians hardly made to play, wheras clark entices a stroke every ball. lee and clark together and india are probably on the ropes from the get go. 

our national standing in sportsmanship has nosedived all around the world. it takes years to build something up but a day to destroy it.
thank you ricky.


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

I think it's called tit-for-tat isn't it ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/09/2134421.htm


> India brings conduct charges against Hogg
> Posted 5 hours 15 minutes ago
> Updated 4 hours 59 minutes ago
> The manager of India's cricket side has brought code of conduct charges against Australian spinner Brad Hogg, as tensions over the second Test in Sydney continue to boil over.
> ...



Now suppose they only have Indian witnesses ? - how would we feel if they found hoggy gulty? (of anything serious - not talking about a minor sledge)


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=343551

Doesn't sound like the cricketers will end up on the walls of the Aussie Hall of Fame 



> A group of sporting legends plan to complain to Cricket Australia that the behaviour of Ricky Ponting's cricket team is damaging Australia's international reputation.
> 
> Sport Australia Hall of Fame members John Bertrand, Herb Elliott and Rob de Castella are among those angry at the behaviour of the Australian cricket team in the wake of the controversial second Test in Sydney last week.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pommiegranite (9 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> Absolutely woeful, disgusting and revolting.
> 
> As a sports official myself, words cannot describe how angry this makes me.
> 
> ...




Ludicrous statement. Bucknor is one of the worst umpires around. He has been a dead man walking for at least the past 12 months. Everyone in the game knows that he is well past his sell by date. I would guess that even the Australian cricket team would agree (but not openly)


----------



## doctorj (9 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> Ludicrous statement. Bucknor is one of the worst umpires around. He has been a dead man walking for at least the past 12 months. Everyone in the game knows that he is well past his sell by date. I would guess that even the Australian cricket team would agree (but not openly)



He is on the ICC's elite panel.


----------



## Prospector (9 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> He is on the ICC's elite panel.




Which means nothing.  He is a nice guy.  Let's not confuse that with professional competence.  If he was a player he would have been dropped months ago.


----------



## Pommiegranite (9 January 2008)

Prospector said:


> Which means nothing. He is a nice guy. Let's not confuse that with professional competence. If he was a player he would have been dropped months ago.




When India toured England last year, Bucknor gave a couple of equally ludicrous decisions. I had never previously seen Tendulkar remain at the crease in shock, before trudging off to a Bucknor lbw decision, shaking his head in confusion.

I think Bucknor's 'performance' in the Sydney test was the final straw for India.

As a side point, who out there think that Singh's amazing success with the ball against Ponting, influenced Ponting's decision to dob Singh in for racism and thereby try to get him banned?


----------



## chops_a_must (9 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> As a side point, who out there think that Singh's amazing success with the ball against Ponting, influenced Ponting's decision to dob Singh in for racism and thereby try to get him banned?




I posted that previously. Given the Aussies determinedness to win at all costs, including cheating (clarke's and ponting's catch) who in their right mind would believe them?

Especially Symonds, who for no reason walked up to Singh... and has admitted effectively he has absolutely no credibility when it comes to honesty...


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## Rafa (9 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> I think Bucknor's 'performance' in the Sydney test was the final straw for India.




exactly...

Doctorj... most of your points are valid, but your repeated statement that bucknor is a top umpire is making you loose cred...

bucknor was good about 5 - 8 years ago... the last few years he has been abysmal...

the fact is, he is over 62ish and is in fact, past the ICC's recommended retirement age for umpires anyway, which is 60... if you can't see or hear, you can't be an umpire... (ah, warnies famous can't bat, can't bowl sledge comes to mind )

so, all things considered, his best days are a long long way behind him...


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## Whiskers (9 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> As a side point, who out there think that Singh's amazing success with the ball against Ponting, influenced Ponting's decision to dob Singh in for racism and thereby try to get him banned?




I always felt that was the case, that Ponting was increasingly being frustrated (personally) and lashed out. I was dissapointed with his behaviour even before the racism claim.


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## Miner (9 January 2008)

Prospector said:


> Which means nothing.  He is a nice guy.  Let's not confuse that with professional competence.  If he was a player he would have been dropped months ago.




Most of the guys in jail are probably nice guys but fact remained they were convicted due to criminal offences.
His Highness Mr Ricky Ponting is the nicest guy and his value for ethics, integrity is unquestionable. Since his team mates like Hussey, Gilly and Hayden are behind him 100%. Here is a specimen attached to show  Ricky's integrity. Does any one remember Shakespeare's Julius Caeser and the speech of Mark Antonio ? "I am here to bury Caeser and not to praise him. Brutas was a holy man. Etc" . So Ricky is a holy man for some of us. (See photo). 
Ironically my earlier detailed post was probably deleted by system fault screening . Probably it was too much for the system  to swallow being a Ricky Fan. Fact remains that the action of Ricky, Bucknaor has made the Australians under microscope. It is a result of many years of abuse against all visitors when they come in Australia. Indian reaction was basically a volcanic eruption of the anger and frustration of many years. There are many Australians who support Indian actions as all of them wanted to see a good cricket for which the money is paid by the spectators and sponsors. THe players are forgetting that they are servicing the audience and sponsors to behave and play good cricket.
Does any one understand Monkey in Hindi is Hanuman who is worshipped by many Hindus in India ? Of course the stature of Symmonds does nto qualify him to be a God so he rightly thought it was a racist comment. It was Harbhazan' s fault who being a non Hindu person compared Symmond with a Hindu God which should not have been done. When Australians called SriLankans as black monkeys - was okay however.  
http://publication.samachar.com/pub...l/ibnlive.php&homeurl=http://www.samachar.com
Fact remains good cricket has been assasinated by some people who did not understand the ramification of the murder. It divided the cricket lovers into two groups. It has done a great *disservice to many of us (we should be discussing stocks and not cricket - what a waste of time by all of us now*).


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## ithatheekret (9 January 2008)

Ponting would have very clearly known that his complaint would mean the calling in of an outside judge , in doing so , he has sent Bucknor on his way.
Bucknor may well be systematically blind as a bat , but Ponts had to go one further , in the name of the game ..... yeah right .....

New Captain please .

PS.. looking at the market today , second thoughts why rub it in , the analysts will come out by tonight calling a correction.


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## ba229 (9 January 2008)

Ponting has done nothing wrong and has no case to answer.

I am shocked that such a response has erupted from him following ICC guidelines on racism and for his determination to win.

If he did not have a determination to win we would also be calling for his head.

As for Steve Bucknor being dropped, I think it is a growing trend for counties to get the umpires they want.

Darrell Hair can't umpire Pakistan or basically anywhere on the sub continent and now bucknor is the same.

The ICC are gutless and have been ineffective and basically a honourary panel for some time now.

The ICC and other countries should get together and turn their back to the indian money and tell some of these teams that if they don't like it they can go away and play themselves.

Can you imagine the response the aussies will get in indian later this year?


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## Pommiegranite (9 January 2008)

Miner said:


> Most of the guys in jail are probably nice guys but fact remained they were convicted due to criminal offences.
> His Highness Mr Ricky Ponting is the nicest guy and his value for ethics, integrity is unquestionable. Since his team mates like Hussey, Gilly and Hayden are behind him 100%. Here is a specimen attached to show Ricky's integrity. Does any one remember Shakespeare's Julius Caeser and the speech of Mark Antonio ? "I am here to bury Caeser and not to praise him. Brutas was a holy man. Etc" . So Ricky is a holy man for some of us. (See photo).
> Ironically my earlier detailed post was probably deleted by system fault screening . Probably it was too much for the system to swallow being a Ricky Fan. Fact remains that the action of Ricky, Bucknaor has made the Australians under microscope. It is a result of many years of abuse against all visitors when they come in Australia. Indian reaction was basically a volcanic eruption of the anger and frustration of many years. There are many Australians who support Indian actions as all of them wanted to see a good cricket for which the money is paid by the spectators and sponsors. THe players are forgetting that they are servicing the audience and sponsors to behave and play good cricket.
> Does any one understand Monkey in Hindi is Hanuman who is worshipped by many Hindus in India ? Of course the stature of Symmonds does nto qualify him to be a God so he rightly thought it was a racist comment. It was Harbhazan' s fault who being a non Hindu person compared Symmond with a Hindu God which should not have been done. When Australians called SriLankans as black monkeys - was okay however.
> ...




Ok...a little of my identity:

Like Singh, I am Sikh by origin, with my grandparents originating no more than 50ks from where Singh lives.

'Monkey' is NOT a racist term in Punjabi, even when directed at a person of black origin. An analogy would be to call somebody a 'Pig' or any other animal. 

So saying this, all we are talking about is sledging. BIG DEAL!!


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## Gspot (9 January 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I posted that previously. Given the Aussies determinedness to win at all costs, including cheating (clarke's and ponting's catch) who in their right mind would believe them?
> 
> Especially Symonds, who for no reason walked up to Singh... and has admitted effectively he has absolutely no credibility when it comes to honesty...




Chops, whats your problem? Ponting turned down a catch of Dravid, saying he wasn't sure after Dravid started walking. Then he caught Dhoni brilliantly of Hogg, as replays show it touching Dhoni's finger. And who the F*** said Clarkes catch wasn't a catch. You truly are a Dorker.


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## chops_a_must (9 January 2008)

ba229 said:


> As for Steve Bucknor being dropped, I think it is a growing trend for counties to get the umpires they want.
> 
> Darrell Hair can't umpire Pakistan or basically anywhere on the sub continent and now bucknor is the same.



No. Darrell Hair got sacked because he accused a team of something which was PROVEN not to be the case, and was also proven he had no evidence for.

Speaking to an ex international umpire, friend of ours years ago, I seem to recall him thinking that Hair was in fact a racist c**t...


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## chops_a_must (9 January 2008)

Gspot said:


> Chops, whats your problem? Ponting turned down a catch of Dravid, saying he wasn't sure after Dravid started walking. Then he caught Dhoni brilliantly of Hogg, as replays show it touching Dhoni's finger. And who the F*** said Clarkes catch wasn't a catch. You truly are a Dorker.




Replays also show him bench pressing the ball off the ground...


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## doctorj (9 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> 'Monkey' is NOT a racist term in Punjabi, even when directed at a person of black origin. An analogy would be to call somebody a 'Pig' or any other animal.



The issue is the crowd were calling Symonds a monkey on the last tour of India and it was widely agreed that it was a racist taunt, including by Indians. Saying that it’s only racist if the person saying it is on the field doesn’t wash.


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## visual (9 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> Ok...a little of my identity:
> 
> Like Singh, I am Sikh by origin, with my grandparents originating no more than 50ks from where Singh lives.
> 
> ...




Remember Dean Jones calling someone a terorrist, not meant to go to air, but mike still on so it was heard. That also could have been defended by saying in Australia that is seen as humour, muslims at the moment are committing most terorrist acts so the guy being muslim can be said to be a humourous nickname, nothing more, but that didn't happen Dean Jones was reprimanded by all and sundry, got sacked and came home. No symphathy, no excuses, no threaths, no burning of effigies. So if taking the medicine is good enough for one, why not the other. By the way it would also help the Indians to educate themselves about how to behave in someones elses country and their standard of behaviour because even if you are right, which I doubt, monkey is seen as racist just about anywhere else on the planet.


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## Broadside (9 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> The issue is the crowd were calling Symonds a monkey on the last tour of India and it was widely agreed that it was a racist taunt, including by Indians. Saying that it’s only racist if the person saying it is on the field doesn’t wash.




I agree if Singh said it he knew exactly how offensive it was to Symonds, how could he not after the ODIs in India late last year?  I would like to know how Procter is so sure Singh said it though, it was Singh/Tendulkar's word versus a couple of Aussies and no umpires or microphones heard it.

It is a separate issue from the Ponting behaviour though, in my mind, much of the furore could have been defused if Ricky had offered credit to the opposition at the end of the match and acknowledged the Australians were lucky.  That seems common sense approach for a captain but he seems to be lacking in humility and grace which are just as important for an Aussie captain as pure cricketing ability.


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## doctorj (9 January 2008)

Broadside said:


> It is a separate issue from the Ponting behaviour though, in my mind, much of the furore could have been defused if Ricky had offered credit to the opposition at the end of the match.



I wonder if people would be calling for Ponting's head if the Indians didn't feel so aggrevied at the umpiring decisions and Singh's suspension?

I'd say probably not.


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## visual (9 January 2008)

Broadside said:


> I agree if Singh said it he knew exactly how offensive it was to Symonds, how could he not after the ODIs in India late last year?  I would like to know how Procter is so sure Singh said it though, it was Singh/Tendulkar's word versus a couple of Aussies and no umpires or microphones heard it.
> 
> It is a separate issue from the Ponting behaviour though, in my mind, much of the furore could have been defused if Ricky had offered credit to the opposition at the end of the match and acknowledged the Australians were lucky.  That seems common sense approach for a captain but he seems to be lacking in humility and grace which are just as important for an Aussie captain as pure cricketing ability.




Do we know, the umpire didn't hear it? Maybe on the other hand he was going by the reaction of Symonds. Tendulkar was no where near where he could hear what was said so his word can be dismissed but everyone else involved was within hear shot. Plus everyone is assuming that the umpire didn't hear the word on this occassion however it has been agreed that Singh does use that language and who is to say that he had not heard the word before but the Australians had not complained and the umpire had simply waited for someone to take offence, after all the stuff that's happening who could blame the impire for waiting for a complaint to be made before he did something.


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## Broadside (9 January 2008)

doctorj said:


> I wonder if people would be calling for Ponting's head if the Indians didn't feel so aggrevied at the umpiring decisions and Singh's suspension?
> 
> I'd say probably not.




I think it is just many are getting fed up with the culture and attitude of the team over a number of years and this is the catalyst for a lot of people saying "enough!"  Sure some people don't see it that way but many many do and it is a problem cricket needs to address because people are voting with their feet.


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## Rafa (9 January 2008)

visual said:


> Plus everyone is assuming that the umpire didn't hear the word on this occassion




given that the umpires couldn't hear what was the loudest snick in world cricket when symonds was on 30 odd... what chances of them hearing what singh said 



this problem begins and ends with the umpires, bucknor in particular.... take that out, there would be none of this...

ponting is a great captain, and australia plays to win... plays hard and celebrates hard... yes, he could be a bit more diplomatic, but heck, if i had just won a nailbiter like that, i'd be wanting to celebrate pretty hard...nothing wrong with that whatsoever.


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## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

Miner said:


> ........... Does any one understand Monkey in Hindi is Hanuman who is worshipped by many Hindus in India ? Of course the stature of Symmonds does nto qualify him to be a God so he rightly thought it was a racist comment. It was Harbhazan' s fault who being a non Hindu person compared Symmond with a Hindu God which should not have been done. When Australians called SriLankans as black monkeys - was okay however.
> http://publication.samachar.com/pub...l/ibnlive.php&homeurl=http://www.samachar.com....




Miner ... as for what "monkey" means to us and to them,  not agreeing or disagreeing , just posting that photo of Symonds from that "Melbourne" paper, the Courier Mail .  Gotta feeling it was intended to be a racial slur, but what would I know. 

Also that photo of Ponting grounding the ball that he subsequently appealed for (about 15 or 20 overs to go).  I guess when you're getting the sort of decisions they were gettig, he might as well appeal for anything ? lol - never know your luck!  

*Question*.  That photo of Ricky has a caption "*There is no way I grounded that ball*"!!??.  Does anyone remember him saying that ?  Gotta feeling the press (Indian press?) are  taking some liberties with that little bit of "icing".  Not that Ricky is beyond criticism for appealing in the first place. 

On similar matter, people taking meaning of words differently between different cultures ...  I recall Mahatiar claiming major insult because Keating called him "intransigent" - and when translated into Malay it meant "stupid".  Now call me stupid (intransigent ?) if you like, but I would have thought that "intransigent" would translate into Malay as "intransigent", yes!?? 
http://publication.samachar.com/pub...l/ibnlive.php&homeurl=http://www.samachar.com


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## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

Rafa said:


> given that the umpires couldn't hear what was the loudest snick in world cricket when symonds was on 30 odd... what chances of them hearing what singh said



lol - brilliant point


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## visual (9 January 2008)

Rafa said:


> given that the umpires couldn't hear what was the loudest snick in world cricket when symonds was on 30 odd... what chances of them hearing what singh said




First what's a snick?


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## ba229 (9 January 2008)

Law 32

3. A fair catch
A catch shall be considered to have been fairly made if
(a) throughout the act of making the catch
(i) any fielder in contact with the ball is within the field of play. See 4 below.
(ii) the ball is at no time in contact with any object grounded beyond the boundary.

The act of making the catch shall start from the time when a fielder first handles the ball and shall end when a fielder obtains complete control both over the ball and over his own movement.

So the debate should be over whether Ponting was in control of his own movement.


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## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

re post #148 - recalcitrant, intransigent whatever


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## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

ba229 said:


> Law 32
> 
> 3. A fair catch
> A catch shall be considered to have been fairly made if
> ...



was that when he was doing a pont ?
or on the field ?


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## Pommiegranite (9 January 2008)

visual said:


> Remember Dean Jones calling someone a terorrist, not meant to go to air, but mike still on so it was heard. That also could have been defended by saying in Australia that is seen as humour, muslims at the moment are committing most terorrist acts so the guy being muslim can be said to be a humourous nickname, nothing more, but that didn't happen Dean Jones was reprimanded by all and sundry, got sacked and came home. No symphathy, no excuses, no threaths, no burning of effigies.




Dean Jones was heard on the air by the millions listening i.e children. Hardly a good example.

Singh said nothing (no evidence) to a competitor on the field.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.



visual said:


> So if taking the medicine is good enough for one, why not the other. By the way it would also help the Indians to educate themselves about how to behave in someones elses country and their standard of behaviour .




Don't be a mong...have you not followed any of what has been going on. Evidence of racial abuse by Singh please? 

On the subject of behaviour....Australia of all countries don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to behaviour on AND off the field. Your views are are prime example of the bigotted Australian view which needs to be eradicated from Australian society.



visual said:


> because even if you are right, which I doubt, monkey is seen as racist just about anywhere else on the planet.




From this point it is plain to see that you are not well travelled, and think the whole world consists of Australia, North America and a few European countries. 

Too much "Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi" in your life me thinks.


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## YELNATS (9 January 2008)

I'm not sure if this point has been made, but why was the Indian team quite prepared to submit themselves to the judiciary hearing concering H. Singh's alleged remark and then only to refute it and question it's competency when the decision went against them?

It seems like they only accept the umpires decision if it goes their way.

It raises a credibility issue over the Indian team.

Bucknor shouldn't have been sacked, even if he deserved to be based on his performance, as it sends the message that the Indian Cricket authorities are more powerful than International Cricket.

I also think R. Ponting is doing a good job, the way he was appointed to do it.


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## visual (9 January 2008)

Pommiegranite said:


> Dean Jones was heard on the air by the millions listening i.e children. Hardly a good example.
> 
> Singh said nothing (no evidence) to a competitor on the field.
> 
> ...




Sorry am I missing something here? you are saying something that is totally wrong, yet you make personal aspertiontions against me!
Moderators how come he gets away with it? hmmmm is it because he is an indian?


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## prawn_86 (9 January 2008)

Once again the thread seems to be getting off topic guys. It seems to be a problem of late in the general chat areas.

If you have a problem with other members, or wish to make personal comments please do not do so via the public arena.

thanks

Prawn + other mods


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## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

visual said:


> First what's a snick?



when ball touches side of bat (then if caught youre out) 

as against a "re-snick" - that's when you get your "nickers" in a knot


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## Pommiegranite (9 January 2008)

visual said:


> Remember Dean Jones calling someone a terorrist, not meant to go to air, but mike still on so it was heard. That also could have been defended by saying in Australia that is seen as humour, muslims at the moment are committing most terorrist acts so the guy being muslim can be said to be a humourous nickname, nothing more, but that didn't happen Dean Jones was reprimanded by all and sundry, got sacked and came home. No symphathy, no excuses, no threaths, no burning of effigies. So if taking the medicine is good enough for one, why not the other. *By the way it would also help the Indians to educate themselves about how to behave in someones elses country and their standard of behaviour *because even if you are right, which I doubt, monkey is seen as racist just about anywhere else on the planet.






visual said:


> Sorry am I missing something here? you are saying something that is totally wrong, yet you make personal aspertiontions against me!
> Moderators how come he gets away with it? hmmmm is it because he is an indian?




Which Indians? Harbhajan Singh...or do you really mean Dr Haneef Mohammed?

On the subject of behaviour, how about Australia sets an example starting with its cricket team. The stage is yours Australia.


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## doctorj (9 January 2008)

Guys, I'm going to put my moderator's hat on for a moment.

Until now this conversation would be best described as passionate and robust.  The conversation is quickly turning aggressive and personal.  Either you guys clean up your act and get back to the topic of Ricky 
Ponting and the Sydney test or action will be taken.


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## prawn_86 (9 January 2008)

Since you guys obviously took neither of our warnings into account this thread has now been suspended until we have time to look over it and take action.

If you want personal attacks go to other sites.


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