# My first stocks :D



## Longjaw (24 April 2013)

Hi,
As this is my first post,I want to introduce myself and tell you a little about me,

I have been an investor in property for several years and hold a small portfolio of properties in coastal and mining areas.

I have been feeling a little down lately as property prices are lower and the risks for exit are high.

I have had some money put aside waiting for a cheap bargain property but to date I haven't taken the plunge and spent it.

I have always wondered about the stock market and this week I signed with nabtrade and made my first buys.

I don't know **** about share trading but I'm starting small and as I do with property I am not putting all my eggs in the same basket.

I have chosen the following and would love feedback ,good or bad on my selections.

I haven't made any money this week but I haven't lost any either 

CGH 
RIO
WHC
AWC
NWE
COH

There it is,at this stage I am not paying broker fees as I am on the first 20 trades free so that gives me a little learning room 

Be kind to the nube


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## springhill (24 April 2013)

Hi Longjaw,

Welcome to ASF. As a starting point it might help other members if you outlined the reasons why you chose those particular stocks. Ie, dividends, capital growth, defensive positioning etc
You will get a better concentration of feedback if you provide some more in depth information.

Not my end of town so I am not qualified to give an opinion.
All the best.


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## Knobby22 (24 April 2013)

Australians call them shares not stocks. 
You are game to hold Rio imo.


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## ROE (24 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> Hi,
> As this is my first post,I want to introduce myself and tell you a little about me,
> 
> I have been an investor in property for several years and hold a small portfolio of properties in coastal and mining areas.
> ...




Most of them are resource and energy stock and I'm not into those area so I know little...

COH good company but I think their price is too high at the current level, I think they are losing market share not huge but their competitor are eating in...and the fact management came out defending they not losing market 

shares tell me they are starting to lose market share...at this price it need to grow at a healthy clip each year for a number of years and I cant confidently predict that it can so I stay out....not saying that is how it will pan out
just my opinion in approaching this stock....it could go to $80 or $100 but for me too expensive to touch....

CGH I have some of them after the massive sell off, someone who bought at IPO price will be will under water
but at 40s level I think there is a decent chance of recovery and 
the market mark it down due and recent mining slow down and management trust 
they new listed, management gave prediction that are off the mark and didn't see the slow down coming...

CKF followed exact same path and pretty much exact same thing happen to them before it recovered....

good luck and enjoy your investment journey..


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## Longjaw (24 April 2013)

springhill said:


> Hi Longjaw,
> 
> Welcome to ASF. As a starting point it might help other members if you outlined the reasons why you chose those particular stocks. Ie, dividends, capital growth, defensive positioning etc
> You will get a better concentration of feedback if you provide some more in depth information.
> ...




Thanks for your quick reply,

I have property in NSW so the WHC is in the backyard of the largest investment i have,so I suppose I am hopeful they will go forward,mining is something I have been around for a while so short term they should perform well and I understand if there is a dry start included.

I have only had several days to chose these stocks so the reason is probably I like the underdog as this is where the larger returns are found.

Just like an old set of run down flats that no one wants just waiting for a loving new owner to transform them into a swan.

I have taken a couple of more expensive stocks like COH and RIO just to see what happens,just like in monopoly

I do not yet understand the dividends or franking but I am sure it will come to me in time 

I have only just yesterday found out about the falling knife and I guarantee you I will be cut to pieces but I haven't invested anything I cannot afford to lose at this stage.

I am happy to sell any of these and move forward into something different but I needed to buy something to start this journey.


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## Longjaw (24 April 2013)

ROE said:


> Most of them are resource and energy stock and I'm not into those area so I know little...
> 
> COH good company but I think their price is too high at the current level, I think they are losing market share not huge but their competitor are eating in...and the fact management came out defending they not losing market
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply,
I like the feel of COH and I agree the price is a little high,but there is room to move and I am patient.
CGH I only bought yesterday after I read something on the BHP site,I am hopeful they will get up.


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## Longjaw (24 April 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> Australians call them shares not stocks.
> You are game to hold Rio imo.



I am such a nube I didn't know they were called shares here 
I have only 1k in Rio and only held them for a couple of days ,do you have an alternate for me in the same sector?


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## galumay (24 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I have only 1k in Rio and only held them for a couple of days ,do you have an alternate for me in the same sector?




I actually think RIO is the only resources share in your portfolio i would consider holding, like ROE i dont buy resources stock, dont like the cyclic nature of the business and the dependence on intangible assets (minerals in the ground).

RIO should be at a low at the moment given their extraordinary managerial incompetence, but they do have good resources and they have now basically completely written off the disastrous purchase of Alcan so as Alumina turns around they will make good returns.

The main thing I would suggest is that having rushed in with insufficient research and understanding, dont panic and sellout for a loss. Try to assess which of your purchases are ones where you have invested in good profitable businesses with a likelihood of continuing profits and hopefully strong dividend streams and hang onto them for the long term. If your research leads you to believe that any of your purchases are real dogs that have no prospects then sell and swallow your pride!

BTW, none of the above is financial advice and i may well be 100% wrong.


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## McLovin (24 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> Hi,
> As this is my first post,I want to introduce myself and tell you a little about me,
> 
> I have been an investor in property for several years and hold a small portfolio of properties in coastal and mining areas.
> ...




You hold property in mining areas which have high exit risks (presumably related to a mining slowdown) and on top of that you've now created a portfolio of mining and mining related companies?

Just curious as to the reasoning behind that.

Like ROE, I don't invest in mining because it's too volatile and requires me to make too many assumptions.


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## So_Cynical (24 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have chosen the following and would love feedback ,good or bad on my selections.
> 
> ...




I'm a  contrarian too! 

Welcome to ASF, you will met all sorts here, not many contrarians though so expect a lot of negative comments as you go forward...with your stock choices its gona take some time so i hope your prepared for a journey, personally i think your in too early, as ive been saying, an opportunity is coming with the miners/etc but i don't think we are there yet.


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## Longjaw (25 April 2013)

McLovin said:


> You hold property in mining areas which have high exit risks (presumably related to a mining slowdown) and on top of that you've now created a portfolio of mining and mining related companies?
> 
> Just curious as to the reasoning behind that.
> 
> Like ROE, I don't invest in mining because it's too volatile and requires me to make too many assumptions.




That's the sort of information I am looking for,I dont want to have all mining related shares and it looks like I already have subconsciously ??

I didn't know that and I would be the first to say,don't put all your eggs in the one basket>
I though I had a good range,
What area don't I cover in my portfolio that you can see?


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## Longjaw (25 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> I'm a  contrarian too!
> 
> Welcome to ASF, you will met all sorts here, not many contrarians though so expect a lot of negative comments as you go forward...with your stock choices its gona take some time so i hope your prepared for a journey, personally i think your in too early, as ive been saying, an opportunity is coming with the miners/etc but i don't think we are there yet.



I had to look up what a contrarian means 

You are right I don't follow the masses,I will always look a little deeper than most others and look at all options and sometimes I go on a gut feeling and I don't know why.I don't like to read financial reports like some people,I have a friend who always says the devil is in the fine print and spends all his time researching but by the time he is ready to buy a property,the bargain or opportunity  is gone or he's talked himself out of it. 

It hasn't failed me in property yet and hopefully I can use that same instinct and turn it toward the shares?

When I spotted CGH a couple of days ago I got that gut feeling very strong,hopefully I am right.
I am prepared for the journey and at the moment I am just trying to find shares that I can trade long term but in the meantime I am feeling the water.
(I got the same feeling with COH by the way.)


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## galumay (25 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> What area don't I cover in my portfolio that you can see?




Banks, Insurance, big retailers (woolies/westfarmers), online services..... 

Many different sectors and it would be mad to try to cover all of them.


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## Longjaw (25 April 2013)

galumay said:


> Banks, Insurance, big retailers (woolies/westfarmers), online services.....
> 
> Many different sectors and it would be mad to try to cover all of them.




I am watching WOW and the banks for my three young children's shares as I feel they are a lot safer for them long term.I would hate to lose their money so I am more careful .


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## ROE (25 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I have taken a couple of more expensive stocks like COH and RIO just to see what happens,just like in monopoly
> 
> I do not yet understand the dividends or franking but I am sure it will come to me in time




Monopoly is important but the price you pay for a business is even more important ...the higher price you pay the lower your return and if for some reason you pay at the top of the market it could be a fair way down and many years of recovery before you make a buck out of it....

And the two business you describe isn't really monopoly they just have large market share, there are many other doing the same thing as they do....Brazil has some of the largest Iron Ore miners as well along with our BHP/FMG etc..

Monopoly is when you can command your own price and dictate your term....iron ore is supply and demand business and you can not control its price....BHP and RIO try but it fall down to demand....if China want 50% less you see the price will collapse... Woolies is more of the monopoly than those 2 because they can dictate their term and price...

Dividend is a share of profit made from the business, say business A make $100 profit this year and they decided to pay out $50 as dividend and keep the other $50 for expansion and you have 1% of the shares....your share of dividend is 5c ... 

Franked dividends are payments made to shareholders on which the company has already paid tax (usually 30%) if you received 5c fully franked ...30% has already taken out as tax and if your tax bracket is lower than 30% you entitle for a refund of the difference say your tax bracket is 20% ...you get 10% back when your lodge your tax return...

If you don't have much money in those shares I wouldn't worry too much about it...treat it as an education and I found you learn better when you have something at stake.....As time goes by you will discover your niche and know what business you like to be invested in.

And share price of 20c could be more expensive than $10 dollars one, it got nothing to do with price of the share but its intrinsic value...(the value of the business going forward and its ability to generate profits)...

business of 20c generates 1m profit and business of $10 generate $2 mil profit which is more value ....certainly the $10 one...


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## sydboy007 (25 April 2013)

How much have you invested in each company?

While you might get the buys for free, if you've been buying small parcels then the sell side will eat up a lot of the profit.

Since you've just started investing in shares, and from the sounds of it you sort "jumped" I'd like to know how much research you did prior to your purchases.

I'm starting to gravitate to ETFs that give me diversity in 10K bites, which lets me pick sectors I think will out perform the market, and then let the ETF manager hopefully make some decent stock selections for me.  They work out cheaper than managed funds, and much easier to buy and sell.

We all like to think we can beat the market, but at least half don't.

I've found I'm far more successful in my SMSF investment selection than I've ever been on the personal side.  IF I can figure out why I might move back to picking specific stocks.


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## Longjaw (25 April 2013)

ROE said:


> Monopoly is important but the price you pay for a business is even more important ...the higher price you pay the lower your return and if for some reason you pay at the top of the market it could be a fair way down and many years of recovery before you make a buck out of it....
> 
> And the two business you describe isn't really monopoly they just have large market share, there are many other doing the same thing as they do....Brazil has some of the largest Iron Ore miners as well along with our BHP/FMG etc..
> 
> ...




Thanks for explaining it to me,to be honest I find it hard to take in so much at once and will slowly absorb it as time goes by.
I do understand buying high is a risk and that is why I included only two in my portfolio.I did steer towards BHP instead of RIO but decided on going with RIO,doesn't mean I wont buy some BHP in the near future and see which one I like better.


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## Longjaw (25 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> How much have you invested in each company?
> 
> While you might get the buys for free, if you've been buying small parcels then the sell side will eat up a lot of the profit.
> 
> ...




So far I have around 10K in just to get a feel,spread around the six companies,I can add or sell as I get more knowledge of these shares.  
I get the 90 days / 20 free online trades so I am assuming this includes some sells in there.
I should have it all sorted by then and probably end up with around 10 companies all up.

These will hopefully be long term holds unless I see a good profit jump up in front of me.
I like the idea of your EFTs for the future but for me if I get someone else to do it I wont learn but is definitely something to look at in the new year


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## sydboy007 (25 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> So far I have around 10K in just to get a feel,spread around the six companies,I can add or sell as I get more knowledge of these shares.
> I get the 90 days / 20 free online trades so I am assuming this includes some sells in there.
> I should have it all sorted by then and probably end up with around 10 companies all up.
> 
> ...




So you will have 10 * 10K or 10 * 1K investments?

The sell will be $15 a trade with NAB from memory

IF you have a small amount to invest then an ETF is the way to go, otherwise you will eat up a lot of profit when you sell.  10K into an ETF provides the same diversity oas what your going for now, but with far less costs in terms of the sell side.

You can learn without actually doing.  Is always good to just do some dummy investments and see how they go.  Keep a track of the reasons why and then see how those reasons hold up over the months.

I keep an investment journal for my SMSF.  I note the whys of the purchase, and then each qtr I refer back to it and see if the reasons still stack up, and if I've identified any opportunities that might provide better returns into the future.


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## Longjaw (25 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> So you will have 10 * 10K or 10 * 1K investments?
> 
> The sell will be $15 a trade with NAB from memory
> 
> ...




I have only used 10K to spread around the 6 companies at the moment,when I get comfortable I can add to that.

I don't want to go over that amount at this stage,

I cant personally see any reason for dummy investments,bit like picking numbers in the lotto,not putting them on and finding out your numbers came up and you didn't buy the ticket.


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## sydboy007 (25 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I have only used 10K to spread around the 6 companies at the moment,when I get comfortable I can add to that.
> 
> I don't want to go over that amount at this stage,
> 
> I cant personally see any reason for dummy investments,bit like picking numbers in the lotto,not putting them on and finding out your numbers came up and you didn't buy the ticket.




Capital preservation is more important that capital growth.

If you start with 10K and lose 20% you're back to 8K.

To make it back to your original 10K you have to make a 25% return on what you have left.

Trust me when i say you are taking the expensive way to learn the market.


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## burglar (26 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> ... I cant personally see any reason for dummy investments, ...




It stops noobs from losing precious "seed capital" whilst learning the ropes.

The market will always be there tomorrow.


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## CanOz (26 April 2013)

Its doesn't matter whether or not you are a technical trader/investor, or value investor...if you don't have a plan....you are a GAMBLER.

CanOz


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## McLovin (26 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I had to look up what a contrarian means
> 
> You are right I don't follow the masses,I will always look a little deeper than most others and look at all options and sometimes I go on a gut feeling and I don't know why.I don't like to read financial reports like some people,I have a friend who always says the devil is in the fine print and spends all his time researching but by the time he is ready to buy a property,the bargain or opportunity  is gone or he's talked himself out of it.
> 
> ...




Buying shares is not like buying property. Property is about big macro themes whereas shares are more about company specific things and the price you pay. Most of your return in property is derived through leverage rather than any special insight, while the reverse is true in the sharemarket.

Reading your posts in this thread, I'd say the best thing to do would be to take some time to learn about shares and the market.


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## Longjaw (26 April 2013)

McLovin said:


> Buying shares is not like buying property. Property is about big macro themes whereas shares are more about company specific things and the price you pay. Most of your return in property is derived through leverage rather than any special insight, while the reverse is true in the sharemarket.
> 
> Reading your posts in this thread, I'd say the best thing to do would be to take some time to learn about shares and the market.




I beg to differ,shares are very similar to property and especially in my case where I always buy undervalued properties and hold long term.
I have several properties returning 40%+ consistently,most people could only dream of that and that is only achieved by being able to make a decision on the spot before the situation changes.

I am finding the shares a very similar experience,searching,looking for a bargain,pouncing,
I just bought some ASL shares today  (A bargain to some,high risk for others)

I agree with you I do need to take some time to learn about shares, I still work full time and don't have a lot of spare time on my hands,when I am home my wife works and I have three small children to look after,
That's why I am buying a few shares just to give myself an interest,I am reading all the time now and I believe I am slowly learning.


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## CanOz (26 April 2013)

McLovin said:


> Buying shares is not like buying property. Property is about big macro themes whereas shares are more about company specific things and the price you pay. Most of your return in property is derived through leverage rather than any special insight, while the reverse is true in the sharemarket.
> 
> Reading your posts in this thread, I'd say the best thing to do would be to take some time to learn about shares and the market.




What the heck would you know McLovin....cocky, retired ex-investment banker, millionaire!

Shares = Property = I know what I'm doing


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## Longjaw (26 April 2013)

CanOz said:


> Its doesn't matter whether or not you are a technical trader/investor, or value investor...if you don't have a plan....you are a GAMBLER.
> 
> CanOz



I am definitely not a GAMBLER, never have been,never will,don't even bet on the Melbourne cup,maybe bought 2 lotto tickets in my life.

It is a bit hard for me at this time to have a plan as my entire experience with shares is 5 days total,

Ask me in 6-12 months and I might have a plan,

Thanks for caring


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## burglar (26 April 2013)

sydboy007 said:


> Capital preservation is more important that capital growth.
> 
> If you start with 10K and lose 20% you're back to 8K.
> 
> To make it back to your original 10K you have to make a 25% return on what you have left. ...




I don't know why I keep seeing this !!

20% of 10K = 25% of 8K = 2 grand
The amount you lose is them same as the amount you have to get back.
Regardless of how you abuse percentages!! 

The most important losses are lost time and lost opportunity.


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## McLovin (26 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I am definitely not a GAMBLER, never have been,never will,don't even bet on the Melbourne cup,maybe bought 2 lotto tickets in my life.




I think you need to face reality and understand that what you are currently doing is nothing more than gambling. For instance, can you explain why ASL is undervalued?


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## prawn_86 (26 April 2013)

burglar said:


> I don't know why I keep seeing this !!
> 
> 20% of 10K = 25% of 8K = 2 grand
> The amount you lose is them same as the amount you have to get back.
> ...




So it is just as easy to make 25% return as it is 20%?

If you lose the initial 20% you then need to make 25% to get it back. Yes its the same dollar amount, but from a lower base


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## burglar (26 April 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> So it is just as easy to make 25% return as it is 20%?
> 
> If you lose the initial 20% you then need to make 25% to get it back. Yes its the same dollar amount, but from a lower base




Exactly!! You have changed the base!!


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## prawn_86 (26 April 2013)

burglar said:


> Exactly!! You have changed the base!!




Thats the whole point


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## Longjaw (26 April 2013)

McLovin said:


> I think you need to face reality and understand that what you are currently doing is nothing more than gambling. For instance, can you explain why ASL is undervalued?




It is the same as in my job,we have had shutdowns over the Christmas periods and it hasn't yet picked up,but will in the near future.

The falling of the coal ,gold prices preventing the starting of new projects,this is short term and will pick up when these projects start back again,these people are involved in the leasing of mining equipment,cant make money when the machines are sitting idle or no ones leasing them.  
Coal seam gas also being disrupted,

I have done a little bit of homework otherwise I wouldnt see it as a good buy.

As for gambling "Talk to the hand"


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## burglar (26 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> ... I have done a little bit of homework otherwise I wouldnt see it as a good buy.
> 
> As for gambling "Talk to the hand"




Seems you have a plan of sorts, 
or at least a narrative, 
which will guide you through the minefield of the markets.

If you don't have a go, 
you will be working for the man until retirement age.


What a prospect?!


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## Longjaw (27 April 2013)

burglar said:


> Seems you have a plan of sorts,
> or at least a narrative,
> which will guide you through the minefield of the markets.
> 
> ...



I have never been one to work for the man.
Thanks for your support


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## Lone Wolf (27 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I am definitely not a GAMBLER, never have been,never will,don't even bet on the Melbourne cup,maybe bought 2 lotto tickets in my life.
> 
> It is a bit hard for me at this time to have a plan as my entire experience with shares is 5 days total,




By your own admission you don't know what you're doing and have no plan.

You are risking money on an outcome when you have no clue what that outcome is likely to be. That is the very definition of gambling.

You might be gambling what you can afford to lose, or gambling for the purpose of gaining experience. But you can no longer say that you're not a gambler.

The last person to mention gambling to you was met with a "Talk to the hand" response. So I wouldn't have bothered saying this except that the most dangerous form of gambling is where the person doesn't realise they're gambling.

Don't worry, I'm only saying this once. I won't bother you with it again.


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## Longjaw (27 April 2013)

Lone Wolf said:


> By your own admission you don't know what you're doing and have no plan.
> 
> You are risking money on an outcome when you have no clue what that outcome is likely to be. That is the very definition of gambling.
> 
> ...




Hi Lone Wolf,
 To gamble is to bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
 To play a game of chance for stakes.
 To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.
 To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.
 To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.
 To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.
 A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.
 An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.


Since stocks are bought in the hope that they will increase in value, it is a form of gambling. Yes you are partly right but there are differences, however, between gambling at a casino or buying lottery tickets, and buying stock. Gamblers risk money, which they know they will probably lose, in the hopes of making money quickly. Wise investors buy partial ownership in a company in the hopes of making money over time, which can be a sound way to "plan" for the future.

The difference really comes down to intent. Some types of investing, such as day-trading, are very much like gambling. Anything that requires "luck" above wise decision-making and long-term planning should be avoided. 
But in my case most long-term investments return a profit over time, making them much more like buying bonds or certificates of deposit than rolling dice in a casino. There are many who use investments to secure retirement, education for their children, and inheritance for their families.

I don't plan to day trade and the only plans I have is for long term,

Every person in the world takes some kind of risk when they open their eyes in the morning,makes their breakfast,travels to work,buys a car,buys a phone,buys a fridge,buys a pair of shoes,jewelery,with no clue what that outcome of the purchase is likely to be and the list goes on forever.
No amount of reading or study will ensure the outcome you would like or hope for.

Does it make 100% of the human race Gamblers,including yourself?

I know what you are trying to say and I am sorry you feel you have to try and belittle me on my first week here,and I hold no grudges  as I know the long term people in a forum (As in my current property forum I am a long time member)get their kicks by baiting the new people,but please remember I am probably just as old as yourself,have children and grandchildren,already made my fortune and now is the time for some fun.
So please play nice


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## galumay (27 April 2013)

Giving that others have tried, and failed, I shall not try to help you understand the difference between investing and gambling. Given that others with much, much more knowledge than me have tried to help you understand some of the requirements to invest wisely - and you chose to brush off their advice, I shall not bother with that either.

If you already knew everything you need to make your second fortune in the sharemarket I am wondering why you bothered coming here in the first place?


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## Longjaw (27 April 2013)

galumay said:


> Giving that others have tried, and failed, I shall not try to help you understand the difference between investing and gambling. Given that others with much, much more knowledge than me have tried to help you understand some of the requirements to invest wisely - and you chose to brush off their advice, I shall not bother with that either.
> 
> If you already knew everything you need to make your second fortune in the sharemarket I am wondering why you bothered coming here in the first place?




I didn't say I knew everything if anything about shares,if you read through all my posts I am willing to learn in good time,probably just a bit stubborn in my old age .My apologies for coming across like I have.

I understand it might have come across as I was being reckless but be assured the reason I chose the shares I did was because I actually did study them and believe I have chosen the right ones.

I have had a lot of success from Gas / coal in the past and there is probably no reason why it should stop now, it is not the path for the faint hearted  and especially when you don't know anything about it,there is no doubt there is a slump but very good reasons for it.

I try not to clutter up my thinking with other peoples opinion,in the end if I fail it is all my fault.

I understand this forum is filled with some people with a vast knowledge of the sharemarket however I do not want to follow the path of a day trader using amibroker or metastock, I just want to buy a few shares in a few companies and see where it leads me.

Bit like playing golf,some do it for fun others take it too seriously,

At the end of the day if I feel that the company is not as good as I thought I can just sell,a lot easier than reliezing that after spending 4 million to subdivide some land no one wants.If you think its tough doing shares you should try property investing.


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## Lone Wolf (27 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I know what you are trying to say and I am sorry you feel you have to try and belittle me on my first week here,and I hold no grudges  as I know the long term people in a forum (As in my current property forum I am a long time member)get their kicks by baiting the new people,but please remember I am probably just as old as yourself,have children and grandchildren,already made my fortune and now is the time for some fun.
> So please play nice




You feel I was belittling you. It may have come across that way but it certainly wasn't my intention. I'm not very good at this communication thing. Please accept my apologies. 

Life is all about calculated risks. I was concerned that you were underestimating the risk involved in share trading. If I sounded blunt it was only because I wanted to make it clear that you are taking a risk by starting with real money but no plan. 

You say you've already made your fortune. You also say you've only put in 10K so far. So your personal wealth is at very low risk due to only allocating a small percentage to this experiment. So in your case it doesn't really matter if you lose. My only further comment on risk to you is to be wary of the false sense of security that comes from being lucky. Fortunes have been lost by people who have a good run, think they have it all figured out, invest everything they have and lose the lot.

Some people come here doing what you're doing with only 10K to their name. It's important to make them aware of the risk because if they get off to a bad start it can be a major setback. It's for them who may follow your lead that we try to make the risk clear.



Longjaw said:


> But in my case most long-term investments return a profit over time, making them much more like buying bonds or certificates of deposit than rolling dice in a casino.




What percentage make a profit over time? What hold time are we looking at? What criteria do you use to pick the ones that are likely to perform well over time? There are many people out there holding shares that are now worth substantially less then what they bought them for. They will be waiting quite a long time to see a profit, if they ever see one at all. That's why I consider trading without a plan to be a gamble, regardless of the timeframe.

You probably think I'm belittling you again. That's honestly not my intent. I get no kicks from picking on people. I have better things to do with my time than post on forums. I'm no expert and don't claim to be. But I know how to protect my capital. Just trying give back to the forum a bit by helping others protect their capital also. I don't trade the way you're looking to so I have nothing left to offer. Best of luck.


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## Longjaw (27 April 2013)

Lone Wolf said:


> It may have come across that way but it certainly wasn't my intention. I'm not very good at this communication thing. Please accept my apologies.
> .



Thanks for clearing that up,one problem with the internet is typing is not personal and it does come across as abrupt,I don't mean to do that either,when letter handwriting was still around you could sense peoples feeling from their handwriting.Typing is so cold and informal. 

If we could sit down face to face,have a beer we can see each others eyes and we'd get on just fine,
Cheers


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## Julia (27 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> The difference really comes down to intent. Some types of investing, such as day-trading, are very much like gambling.



What is your basis for that statement?  



> Anything that requires "luck" above wise decision-making and long-term planning should be avoided.



We all imagine we have the capacity to make wise decisions.  History shows that many of these wise decisions turn out to be woefully bad.



> But in my case most long-term investments return a profit over time, making them much more like buying bonds or certificates of deposit than rolling dice in a casino. There are many who use investments to secure retirement, education for their children, and inheritance for their families.



Can you give some examples of these long term investments that represent bonds or bank deposits?



> No amount of reading or study will ensure the outcome you would like or hope for.



Perhaps not, but being properly financially and market literate is fundamental.



> I know what you are trying to say and I am sorry you feel you have to try and belittle me on my first week here,



I haven't seen anyone trying to belittle you.  If you put up your ideas in order to seek feedback you need to be prepared to accept what more experienced people have gone to the trouble to offer.
If you just want positive confirmation of what you have already decided, then it's a bit pointless, isn't it, as galumay has observed.



Longjaw said:


> I have had a lot of success from Gas / coal in the past and there is probably no reason why it should stop now, it is not the path for the faint hearted  and especially when you don't know anything about it,there is no doubt there is a slump but very good reasons for it.



To what do you attribute your 'lot of success from gas/coal ?



> I try not to clutter up my thinking with other peoples opinion,in the end if I fail it is all my fault.



So, again, I wonder why you even started this thread?


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

Julia said:


> What is your basis for that statement?




Speaks for itself doesn't it.



Julia said:


> We all imagine we have the capacity to make wise decisions.  History shows that many of these wise decisions turn out to be woefully bad.




Are you speaking from your personal experience?





Julia said:


> Perhaps not, but being properly financially and market literate is fundamental.




This is true but reading bull**** made up reports can be detrimental to good decision making




Julia said:


> I haven't seen anyone trying to belittle you.  If you put up your ideas in order to seek feedback you need to be prepared to accept what more experienced people have gone to the trouble to offer.
> If you just want positive confirmation of what you have already decided, then it's a bit pointless, isn't it, as galumay has observed.




You are trying to do just that right now,




Julia said:


> To what do you attribute your 'lot of success from gas/coal ?




Buying low ,knowing where and what to buy and staying in for the long haul.




Julia said:


> So, again, I wonder why you even started this thread?




Back to belittling again I see,to introduce myself and to give people like yourself something to do.


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## galumay (28 April 2013)

Julia said:


> So, again, I wonder why you even started this thread?




I think the time has come to wonder why we are bothering posting in this thread.

brick wall + banging head = pain.


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## Julia (28 April 2013)

galumay said:


> I think the time has come to wonder why we are bothering posting in this thread.
> 
> brick wall + banging head = pain.



+1.  Interesting how the responses so contrast with those of another beginner on a different thread.  The OP on this thread might like to have a look at how Midou responds to comments.


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

Julia said:


> +1.  Interesting how the responses so contrast with those of another beginner on a different thread.  The OP on this thread might like to have a look at how Midou responds to comments.



I now,but I'm different


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

galumay said:


> I think the time has come to wonder why we are bothering posting in this thread.
> 
> brick wall + banging head = pain.



Because everyone likes to put their two cents worth in


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

galumay said:


> I think the time has come to wonder why we are bothering posting in this thread.
> 
> brick wall + banging head = pain.



OK a serious question if I may,
Why do you believe Rio Tinto is a better company than BHP ?


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

This thread has made my Sunday afternoon at work much more bearable....lol.


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> This thread has made my Sunday afternoon at work much more bearable....lol.



Working on a Sunday?
What do you do?
Glad I could give you a giggle


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> Working on a Sunday?
> What do you do?
> Glad I could give you a giggle




It's by choice not necessity (partially anyway). I'm a scientist.


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> It's by choice not necessity (partially anyway). I'm a scientist.



Good on you, finally someone here with some common sense and knowledge.
Do you believe the share market is a gamblers den or is it some weird place where only smart people congregate?


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## FlyingFox (28 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> Good on you, finally someone here with some common sense and knowledge.
> Do you believe the share market is a gamblers den or is it some weird place where only smart people congregate?




I'm a newbie like you, learning the ropes. I think you have been given some great advice from people much more knowledgeable and with more experience than me.

Any market is what you make it or rather how you approach it. Whether it be the share market, the property market or the gold market (or soybeans for that matter). If you approach it as purely a speculator (I prefer this term over gambler) than it is just speculation, you get lucky, you make a fortune. However you can just as easily loose it. Look around, there are have been at least a few high profile cases in Oz of this recently; including in mining.  

Personally I believe that too many sectors are geared this way and it stems from money being too cheap. But that is just personal opinion. 

If you approach with a plan for investing (long or short term), with good idea of micro and macro fundamentals of the stocks your picking and exit strategies (how much are you willing to lose and why?) and most importantly a willingness to adopt and change, then you will do well over the long run. You might not make as much as speculators in any given period but overall you should do well.

BTW speculation can be done just as easily in long term trading as in day trading and you can have a plan for day trading too.

Also the sharemarket is both a gambler's den and a place where people with know how about the markets congregate (Not necessarily smart!). It is also the greatest tool of wealth transfer from the pockets of the people without the know how into the pockets of those with....

These are just my humble opinions, like I said before, you have been given some great advise by people with much more experience than me.


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> I'm a newbie like you, learning the ropes. I think you have been given some great advice from people much more knowledgeable and with more experience than me.
> 
> Any market is what you make it or rather how you approach it. Whether it be the share market, the property market or the gold market (or soybeans for that matter). If you approach it as purely a speculator (I prefer this term over gambler) than it is just speculation, you get lucky, you make a fortune. However you can just as easily loose it. Look around, there are have been at least a few high profile cases in Oz of this recently; including in mining.
> 
> ...



I believe you are the most humble smartest person I have encountered here yet 
You will do well in what ever you chose to do,
I might be a beginner in shares but I am not a beginner in life and I believe speculation in shares is similar to property and if I can transfer the knowledge I have into shares I believe I will do OK>
I have seen people with multi million dollar portfolios in property fail because they give up too early or they took too many risks,or they listened to people who didn't know any better,
I might seem like I am taking risks but in fact I am merely testing the waters 
Cheers and have a good night


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## burglar (28 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> I believe you are the most humble smartest person I have encountered here yet  ...



I am the only one smart enough to outsmart me.
And I do it time and again!

Why am I not "the most humble smartest person"? :


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## Longjaw (28 April 2013)

burglar said:


> I am the only one smart enough to outsmart me.
> And I do it time and again!
> 
> Why am I not "the most humble smartest person"? :



We did disagree on the paper trading 
Which I have discovered is a good way of tracking other people successes or failures.
I am my own worst enemy,can you beat that ?


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## burglar (29 April 2013)

Longjaw said:


> We did disagree on the paper trading  ...




I built and watched watchlists.
One company was in my sights for 5 years before I bought in.
Does that constitute "paper trading"?

If so, I am guilty as charged.


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