# Has trading worked out for you?



## ThingyMajiggy (22 July 2015)

Hey all, 

I was just pondering today and wondering how many of you on here are actually succeeding at this, whatever it may be, whether its day-trading, swing trading, position trading or investing and it can be in anything, stocks/fx/futures/options/CFDs? 

So I thought why not ask? So who here, let's say in the last 1-5 years(or longer if you're an investor) has successfully turned a profit consistently, so if you're day trading/investing/whatever(in anything, and not just a once off yes I bought this stock once and got lucky and then haven't traded since) you've done well and its worth while profit-wise, or you've now got to the point where you trade for a living. After all we are all here to turn a profit but it seems we are all still trying to figure it out, plenty of wondering and questions going on, so why not actually see who is doing well from this and not just breaking even or getting by? 

I would love to know the statistics on the users here, how many are actually making decent coin from this endeavour or whether they wished they had taken some other path(starting their own business or some other method of trying to turn a profit) but they are too far down the road to consider "turning back" so to speak? 

So....are/have you made a decent profit in the last 1/5/10 years on a regular basis where trading in some form or another has improved your life or enabled you to do things you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise(travel, have a good life, buy this or that, help someone, whatever)?


----------



## tech/a (22 July 2015)

I think I've answered this in a few threads.

*But*

*Trading* ---Yes but only when in a bull market (Stocks and did exceptionally 
in my book 2002-2007 ) or when I can get on a trend regularly
I have found the DAX best for this and provides enough when I trade it to be worth the effort.
So my brains are coupled to bullish conditions. So to I might add are the successes of many.

*Business*
Long hard slog but if you can become an expert people will beat a path to your door.
Once you get past $1.5mill T/O and about 6 staff you can start making more than a wage.
Your aim should be that your not self employed---but making far more than a decent wage.
This is a great opportunity to compound success. Plus you have the benefit of working for as
long as you want and as often as you want.

*Property*
Where I made most. Started in 95 and still develop to this day. Right place right time.
Sure it was luck but I also saw in 95 that buying a 4 bedroomed house for $95K with no cash down and
immediate positive gearing when I rented it out---that this was definitely---rinse and repeat.
Development stopped and buy and hold using equity was the theme.
Started selling off in 2003 and only hold 3 freehold now including my Business premises.
Looking for property for development now.

Id suggest over time you get to know all 3.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (22 July 2015)

tech/a said:


> I think I've answered this in a few threads.
> 
> *But*
> 
> ...




Exactly the reply I was after, great stuff tech  and thanks! Property would be great, but I'm only 26 and have no idea where to start plus even from my little knowledge of it, it seems it's not going great guns lately, seems like not a good time to buy property? Also I dunno if it's just me but it seems nearly impossible for young people to buy their own house/property investment, the cost is just insane, which is a shame because I know quite a few older folk and they have all done well from real estate. 

Trading is the same for me, I have been working on it for a long time now, trying to be consistent etc. Trying to save up some funds and get going on my live account, doing well on sim(+60K last month trading DAX using up to 4 lots) but just can't seems like such an uphill battle to get ahead in fund my live account, something always comes up that dips into the savings  I guess you all know the feeling! 

Having my own business is also something I've greatly admired and wished I could do one day as well, the three together seem like a really great setup, own business, trading and then property later on. But there's also the task of thinking up a business in some area, the idea, the skills, the business knowledge. 

Hard to know what to focus on at times, for me anyway. Obviously I would dearly love to trade futures full time and that's what I'm working towards, but I ask these questions because "success" in this arena seems scarce, so it's nice to hear a few success stories every now and then with all this random market theory, algo's, every trader blows up eventually given a long enough period etc. etc.

Being young and loving all three of these things, it's hard what to focus on, it's like if I nail trading then that will enable the other two and great freedom etc(or even investing, all of it sparks my interests). Just trying to make wise decisions so I don't get to the grey nomad stage and think bugger, should've done X, Y or Z instead because this was just an endless money pit, whether that be trading, business or property.

So it's good to hear how you guys get on and if you would have done things differently, or how you would go about it starting fresh these days as a mid 20's person, would you even take up trading or would you pursue some other avenue.


----------



## banco (22 July 2015)

I've had some success (profitable but nothing to brag about) with opening 1.5 hour of US grains futures. I've been a net loser on the ASX.


----------



## kushi212 (22 July 2015)

Thanks for bringing this up.
Being a newbie as well, I keep wondering about this a lot.
Many people around me say that stock market is no different than Casino.
I do know that is not true. A lot of effort, discipline and patience is required to win this game.
I am trying to learn TA / Amibroker AFL currently.

Would love to see more answers here!!


----------



## AlterEgo (23 July 2015)

Yes, I have done pretty well trading the ASX over the last several years, excluding a rough patch over the GFC period. Developed a new system after the GFC and am now getting better results than ever. Have averaged around 62% pa over the last 3 years (using up to approx. 2x leverage). Last financial year made 88%. I made very close to double the income from my day job last financial year, so hopefully I may be able to give up my day job in the not too distant future.


----------



## tech/a (23 July 2015)

Sam

All three are simply about numbers.

Less in more out. It's your job to be creative and to crunch those numbers
Then to put your plan in play and bank the profits from your numbers.

Best of all I'm a dumb ass----- repeated year 11 no tertiary education.
If I can do it *ANYONE* can.

More when we catch up Wednesday.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (23 July 2015)

AlterEgo said:


> Yes, I have done pretty well trading the ASX over the last several years, excluding a rough patch over the GFC period. Developed a new system after the GFC and am now getting better results than ever. Have averaged around 62% pa over the last 3 years (using up to approx. 2x leverage). Last financial year made 88%. I made very close to double the income from my day job last financial year, so hopefully I may be able to give up my day job in the not too distant future.




Great stuff AlterEgo, was this actively trading shares or more of a research then sticking with one good one, more investing style? Or something else? Nice results 



tech/a said:


> Sam
> 
> All three are simply about numbers.
> 
> ...




Good John, gives me hope being a fellow dumb ass myself  

Looking forward to it, because I'm not sure what you mean by the numbers thing, less in more out. At the moment I could do with plenty more numbers coming in


----------



## Trembling Hand (23 July 2015)

Sam wrong question I reckon. Its about what opportunity and path *you *can see.

For 10 years after I left school I was in the food industry. I started as a dishwasher/onion cutter/gopher and with a bit of luck and a lot of promises and enthusiasm I was part owner in the same place a few months later (it was a tiny broke sh!thole in the country). From there I spent 2 and a bit years working 7 days a week 14 hours every day for close to no money. Really it was more like slavery than a business owner on his way to great wealth. But it didn't matter. I could see a path to something much bigger in the future and as naive as I was and as tired as I was every morning at 4 am when the alarm went off I got up at hit the day with all I had because the opportunity I could see fills you with energy. 

After that 2 and a bit years I sold the place and pretty much the next day moved to the big smoke and started to set up something much bigger, again with not much more than promises and enthusiasm. There was some massive obstacles to get started and then keep going but again it was the opportunities I could see that enabled me to keep going through the crap and make it work somehow. It worked after another few years I had a business that was shipping food all over the country and employed more than 30 staff. As it turned out the opportunities were greater than what I could see at the start. Probably too big for me. It turned out that I wasn't invincible and it blew up after 4 years and left me in a deep hole. After a bit of down time and rest I could again see what was my way out so started again. Long story short after a few years and a lot of build it - flip it I was back well above water but something funny happened.

As I went from day to day talking to customers and suppliers as I had for the previous 8-10 years I realised I could no longer see expanding opportunity. I was sitting in my office thinking where is this going to go? I realised nowhere! I was fighting just to stay above water. The landscape and my view of it had changed - dramatically!! That day I decided to get out completely. 

That lead me to trading. And it was the same thing. I could see that there were great, no massive opportunities. The more I look the greater they seemed. That has kept me going for the last 10 years as a trader, stuck in his own little room in his house day in day out fighting the drawdowns and bad days/weeks/months. That sh!tty sick feeling as you put on the next trade that you don't want to but know you have to. Kept me fighting the bad moods at the end of the day after being shown by the market how dumb ar$e I am.... again. Fighting the nervousness of having a good month then stepping up size knowing that a bad week could give that good month straight back. The struggle of having to change markets and styles as movement and opportunity that matches slip away. The 10 years of "embracing uncertainty" has asked for a big price to be paid. But each day the screens get turned on with enthusiasm because I can just see a path that has great opportunity...... still!

The day I don't see it I know will be the day I walk away and get a "real job" and I know I won't look back because there is too much out there to waste time on something that doesn't reward you in some way.

So on to that bit about reward. I reckon most things that people excel at should start out as a hobby. Move to a investigation into the possibilities then if positive a full on assault into a quest for mastery. Once you start the last stage there is no question about "how is that working for others". It has already sucked you in and has hold of you. You can already see the path.

There is nothing wrong with having trading as a hobby for a long long time while you figure out your path. After all I think 99% of the people here are in that category. It is a problem though if its an excuse for not going out in the real world and searching for other more rewarding opportunities.

At some point though the "having another go at it" becomes more a stop loss move just so it doesn't get hit rather than a show of determination or a fight against bad luck.

You cannot walk down a path you cannot see.


----------



## tech/a (23 July 2015)

Great look back T/H.

I see self reflection--never doubt.
I see recognition and belief.

I see discovery of the Pareto principal and its
application.

I see enthusiasm and commitment.

I see you have adopted much which you haven't mentioned here
knowingly or un knowingly.

Building a broad foundation.
Adaptability
Simplicity
Power of compounding and leverage.
Self appraisal
Ability to admit your on a path that could be better and
changing it.

Doubt you have a degree either?

One thing I learn very early on was.

My client was worth more on the open market than their work was.
( I had a lawn round ) A $10 a week client was worth $150 if I sold them
So was getting clients more profitable than cutting them----YOU BET.

I learnt I don't need to be able to operate machinery to own it
I learnt I don't have to be an Engineer to be involved in Civil Engineering
I just employ them.
I learnt that that engineer costs me $50/ hr. and I make the same on charge out. ($100-150/Hrs)
An excavator costs me $4000 a month but is hired out at $25000 a month (The operator gets $5600 a month).
So again what's more important or of more value the work we get or the vehicles ( Encompassing people/tools of trade/offices et al) to do it?

Oh I leant to operate excavators.
AND
Saved bankruptcy in 87---cost house/properties/marriage/Self esteem.
Again in 92---no genius here! 

Great story T/H in a few years I want to read the other chapters!


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (23 July 2015)

Trembling Hand said:


> Sam wrong question I reckon. Its about what opportunity and path *you *can see.
> 
> For 10 years after I left school I was in the food industry. I started as a dishwasher/onion cutter/gopher and with a bit of luck and a lot of promises and enthusiasm I was part owner in the same place a few months later (it was a tiny broke sh!thole in the country). From there I spent 2 and a bit years working 7 days a week 14 hours every day for close to no money. Really it was more like slavery than a business owner on his way to great wealth. But it didn't matter. I could see a path to something much bigger in the future and as naive as I was and as tired as I was every morning at 4 am when the alarm went off I got up at hit the day with all I had because the opportunity I could see fills you with energy.
> 
> ...




Amazing post TH  and good point. 

Was thinking as I was reading your post though, because of the potential opportunities and lifestyle that trading can offer, couldn't anyone see themselves going down that path?(who couldn't imagine themselves doing trading profitably as their "job"? I mean you could potentially trade from a balcony in Santorini overlooking the ocean, who wouldn't want that or couldn't see themselves doing that after discovering/investigating trading and realising there are people out there who are successful at this?) 

Ever since I have known about trading, since pre-GFC I have wanted to do it, the limitless potential and the lifestyle is super appealing.....IF....you can perfect it, I have grown up on computers and always said to myself when I was a teenager that I'd love to make a living from the computer, something online, or whatever, then I discovered trading and thought you beaut and away it went...

It's hard to see what my path is, I have imagined myself travelling the world and waking up in some nice place and getting up early and checking on the markets and my positions, all fantasy in my head of what could be you know as we all do I guess, but it's hard to know sometimes. I guess you could say I have maybe better skills/talents in other areas that are nothing to do with trading but aren't necessarily things that I can see myself making a quid from or having as a career, whether that be true of false I don't know, which brings me onto another thing, you hear/read all the time about find what you love to do and focus on that, become an expert and the career/money will come. Did you do all those things because you loved it and wanted to or did you see the opportunity and potential in them and that's what gave you the driving force to pursue it? 

It almost MAKES it so you like it if the reward is great enough at the end, my grandfather used to always be one to believe in doing what no one else wanted to do, because people will be willing to pay for it which will then MAKE you like it, if that makes sense. You pursue something because of the potential it has, you know even cleaning toilets would be worth it if you were on huge money because no one else was doing it? 

Great to read some of your story though, always wondered how things went for you. 

As I said above I have imagined myself as a trader many a time, and there are other times when I get down in the dumps about it all and wonder if it's really at all possible and start pursuing other areas in my life but it always seems to come back to trading, or at least having my own business of some kind. 

I often think to myself that it's also a toss up of bang for buck as far as time invested, if I was to pursue something else, or look into starting my own business in some area, it would be another 5-10 years before I was what you could call an "expert" in that area I guess and really start getting ahead(assuming I did things right), so I wonder then too if I put another 5-10 years and focus on being a great successful trader/investor the rewards for doing trading/investing surely would be far greater because of the potential it has. The profits one can make from this outweighs most things(which is why it's hard to pursue something else and why it always comes back to "I really should nail trading, I owe it to myself with the effort from the time I've already put in and it trumps everything else". 

Your post is definitely making me think, thanks again mate  I'll shut up now


----------



## tech/a (23 July 2015)

There is a lot going for a business of trading.

No staff
Low over head.
No Clients
Constant market.
Potential to profit in good and bad times.



> The profits one can make from this outweighs most things(which is why it's hard to pursue something else and why it always comes back to "I really should nail trading, I owe it to myself with the effort from the time I've already put in and it trumps everything else".




All business including trading is a two edged sword.
While you can make all you could possibly dream of
you can also lose it!

My advice.
Just pick one instrument and be very very good at it.
Don't try to earn your years salary in the first month or year.
You know what you want to do now you have to DO IT!

Plan your trading business.


----------



## Trembling Hand (23 July 2015)

tech/a said:


> There is a lot going for a business of trading.




There is a lot going for winning Wimbledon too but at some point you have to be honest with yourself and say my progress is just not up to scratch to achieve what I hoped for. Onto the next thing (job/hobby/or stuff it I like it but I'm just a spectator).

There is a newish concept in sports that is pushing the 10,000 hours to be an expert out the window. Its all about training response. How much does one individual respond in fitness (strenght, Vo2Max, speed etc) to a certain training load. Basically there are fast , average and slow responders. Not guys that train harder but guys that get fitter faster off the same load. Below is a chart of 15 people and the gain in watts per kg of body weight when cycling from the same training load.




As you can see over 100 hrs of training (4-6 weeks) some people respond more than twice as well as others and 50% better than the average. Imagine the difference after 5 years!


----------



## tech/a (23 July 2015)

Trembling Hand said:


> There is a lot going for winning Wimbledon too but at some point you have to be honest with yourself and say my progress is just not up to scratch to achieve what I hoped for. Onto the next thing (job/hobby/or stuff it I like it but I'm just a spectator).
> 
> There is a newish concept in sports that is pushing the 10,000 hours to be an expert out the window. Its all about training response. How much does one individual respond in fitness (strenght, Vo2Max, speed etc) to a certain training load. Basically there are fast , average and slow responders. Not guys that train harder but guys that get fitter faster off the same load. Below is a chart of 15 people and the gain in watts per kg of body weight when cycling from the same training load.
> 
> ...




Yes I saw something on TV about that.
Leading edge.
From what I remember you could find out which group you were in.
In future I'm sure you'll be able to do the same for business acumen.
Risk Tolerance
Problem solving
Health
Partner selection 
Plus a plethora of things we cant imagine.

But for now
If you never give it a go you'll never know.
Personally I don't want to look back and wonder---what if?


----------



## Pager (23 July 2015)

I’ve had some outstanding years trading, but also had some dogs, it’s a bit like that for many I think, and consistency and trading don’t really go hand in hand, so giving up the day job dream should stay as just that as the majority of us wont make it, mind you trading doesn’t have to take all day, im done in 5 mins each day and with smart phones and trading platforms I can set my orders and get on with other things, email alerts will tell me when I need to be checking orders have filled, stops are active etc

Tried Futures, stocks, commodities, forex, Options, CFD,s, you name it I have tried to trade it, the only one I have done well is Futures, simple, easy to understand and exchange traded.

These days I only trade Index futures, which is what I first started trading around 2000, should never have strayed elsewhere in hindsight, it’s the hand that fits the glove and im comfortable and relaxed about trading these instruments even though they are highly leveraged.

So I suppose eventually it worked out but it was a hell of a ride………


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (23 July 2015)

Pager said:


> I’ve had some outstanding years trading, but also had some dogs, it’s a bit like that for many I think, and consistency and trading don’t really go hand in hand, so giving up the day job dream should stay as just that as the majority of us wont make it, mind you trading doesn’t have to take all day, im done in 5 mins each day and with smart phones and trading platforms I can set my orders and get on with other things, email alerts will tell me when I need to be checking orders have filled, stops are active etc
> 
> Tried Futures, stocks, commodities, forex, Options, CFD,s, you name it I have tried to trade it, the only one I have done well is Futures, simple, easy to understand and exchange traded.
> 
> ...




Good stuff Pager, thanks for sharing 

What index do you trade and what style if you don't mind me asking? Good to hear about the different ways people go about it too


----------



## Pager (23 July 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Good stuff Pager, thanks for sharing
> 
> What index do you trade and what style if you don't mind me asking? Good to hear about the different ways people go about it too




Purely mechanical and all positions (if still open) are closed when the exchange closes, so nothing held overnight, I trade 5 Index markets, Australia, 2 in Asia, 1 in Europe and the USA. 

Most of the time I stumble along up a bit down a bit but every so often, hit a huge trade which makes up for all the others, usually comes when least expected, can be long waits between drinks though.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (23 July 2015)

Pager said:


> Purely mechanical and all positions (if still open) are closed when the exchange closes, so nothing held overnight, I trade 5 Index markets, Australia, 2 in Asia, 1 in Europe and the USA.
> 
> Most of the time I stumble along up a bit down a bit but every so often, hit a huge trade which makes up for all the others, usually comes when least expected, can be long waits between drinks though.




Excellent  by mechanical you mean automated? What platform/system is that through? Sounds like you pretty much have the world covered!  

Cheers for clarifying


----------



## Pager (23 July 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Excellent  by mechanical you mean automated? What platform/system is that through? Sounds like you pretty much have the world covered!
> 
> Cheers for clarifying




Not so much automated, I download data, generate signals if any, place all my orders as limits that will automatically cancel if not filled in the IB TWS, only usually 2 or 3 orders to place a day so not much work, just have to be aware of times when the exchange opens that if I get the fill email, I place/check the stop has activated, then with many exchanges having an MOC order, its either closed then or at the stop level, the Spi is the only market that’s a bit of a pain as there is no MOC available so it has to be done manually, could use a good after time at 4-29.50 or similar “at market” but being in Oz its not really an issue and if its not closed, then the night session is only less than an hour away.


----------



## AlterEgo (23 July 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Great stuff AlterEgo, was this actively trading shares or more of a research then sticking with one good one, more investing style? Or something else? Nice results




Active trading. Only holding for a few days or so. Doing a few hundred trades per year.


----------



## Habakkuk (24 July 2015)

AlterEgo said:


> Active trading. Only holding for a few days or so. Doing a few hundred trades per year.




Now that you have 2-3 years' worth of real trading results, how do those actual results compare with an Amibroker backtest done now over the same period, i.e. 2013-2015?

What I'm particularly interested in is partial fills as you use limit orders - do they have a significant impact? I'm worried about getting charged $20 brokerage for maybe only a few shares. Are partial fills frequent?

And do you tend to get better or worse results than the backtest?


----------



## tech/a (24 July 2015)

Habakkuk said:


> Now that you have 2-3 years' worth of real trading results, how do those actual results compare with an Amibroker backtest done now over the same period, i.e. 2013-2015?
> 
> What I'm particularly interested in is partial fills as you use limit orders - do they have a significant impact? I'm worried about getting charged $20 brokerage for maybe only a few shares. Are partial fills frequent?
> 
> And do you tend to get better or worse results than the backtest?




You'll only get one fee for filling your order.


----------



## Habakkuk (24 July 2015)

tech/a said:


> You'll only get one fee for filling your order.




I know. You'll also get charged full brokerage for a partial fill, e.g. you order 5000 shares and get only a few at the limit price. The rest of the order remains unfilled. Brokerage is the same.


----------



## tech/a (24 July 2015)

Cant say I have had that happen with IB when I traded shares.
If I wanted 50000 shares and it took 3 bites filling the one order I only
paid one brokerage.


----------



## barney (24 July 2015)

tech/a said:


> Cant say I have had that happen with IB when I traded shares.
> If I wanted 50000 shares and it took 3 bites filling the one order I only
> paid one brokerage.





Only one fee, but if trying to accumulate some illiquid Spec stock where the Spread is wide you can often get caught with a partial fill unless you pay the spread premium before the month is up.  More nuisance value than anything .... a $20 Broker fee here and there won't have too much effect on the bottom line.


----------



## Habakkuk (24 July 2015)

tech/a said:


> Cant say I have had that happen with IB when I traded shares.
> If I wanted 50000 shares and it took 3 bites filling the one order I only
> paid one brokerage.




As you know, tech, I have virtually no real trading experience, but I have looked at live, dynamic data, the DOM and course of sales for some time. This is on the ASX.
Now let's put in a limit buy or sell order at $4.00 for 5000 shares. We're obviously not talking BHP or CBA, but some stock in the ASX100 or at least 200 with reasonable liquidity. Right now it would trade a few cents away.
Maybe it won't go to $4.00, so it costs me nothing. But if it does for a fleeting moment, and I score 1 or 2 shares, then zooms straight back the other way, I get charged $20 brokerage for trading $10 worth of shares.
This has never happened to you, but I see these low volume spikes all the time. It has happened to me once. I ordered 2000 shares at limit and got only 336. Inexperienced as I was and still am, I didn't go and amend my order to get the rest at market.
But an Amibroker backtest using limit orders will cheerfully give you a complete fill at $4.00, and an unrealistic, optimistic result.

That's what I'm asking Alter Ego about. I'm just curious about the impact over hundreds of trades.


----------



## AlterEgo (25 July 2015)

Habakkuk said:


> Now that you have 2-3 years' worth of real trading results, how do those actual results compare with an Amibroker backtest done now over the same period, i.e. 2013-2015?




My real world results have been a little better than a backtest over the same period. However, my backtesting was not using leverage, I have occasionally taken some discretionary trades in there as well, and I have been using a different position sizing formula for the last year and a half that I never wrote in to the system code.

Also, when coding a system you have to make certain assumptions, like regarding fills for example. When I coded the system, when making such assumptions, I always coded the "worst case" scenario.



Habakkuk said:


> What I'm particularly interested in is partial fills as you use limit orders - do they have a significant impact? I'm worried about getting charged $20 brokerage for maybe only a few shares. Are partial fills frequent?




Yes, I do get some partial fills occasionally, however that's more a problem with the lower liquidity stocks, it's not much of an issue for the larger companies (depending on how large an amount your trying to transact of course). However, the issue you speak of doesn't affect me, as with my broker (FP Markets) I have a "Premier" account with them, and as such I have no minimum brokerage, just a flat 0.08% per trade regardless of how few shares (CFD's) it is for, so if I got a fill for only 1 share of CBA, for example, I would only pay 7c in brokerage for the $86 share.


----------



## AlterEgo (25 July 2015)

Habakkuk said:


> But an Amibroker backtest using limit orders will cheerfully give you a complete fill at $4.00, and an unrealistic, optimistic result.




It depends on how you write the Amibroker code. As I said above, I always assumed the "worst case" in the code. So in the code, if placing a limit buy order I wrote that the low of the day must be *below*, not equal to, the limit buy price. So if the system places a limit buy order at $4.00, for the backtest I coded that it will not count as a fill unless the low of the day was $3.99 or less.


----------



## Habakkuk (25 July 2015)

Thanks, Alter Ego, that's exactly the information I was looking for.

About Amibroker coding, I never thought of including this obvious (now that you have explained it) condition.
And I didn't know that kind of "no-minimum-brokerage" Premier account existed.

To get back on-topic, trading hasn't worked out for me so far. I'm not exactly deep in the red, but only due to luck and very few trades.


----------



## AlterEgo (25 July 2015)

Habakkuk said:


> I didn't know that kind of "no-minimum-brokerage" Premier account existed.




You do need to maintain a minimum account balance of $50K with them to get this account though.


----------



## minwa (26 July 2015)

Left uni halfway to pursue trading. Did crappy jobs (below minimum cash in hand type) to fund my trading accounts. I was lucky to still be living at parents (was still 19) so did not have any real expenses while I honed my skills. Can't imagine how hard it would be for someone to get into this while being in salary & need to provide for his family.

Fast forward a few years I now trade for a living myself. Currently in talks with prop shops to see if it's for me. Don't need to go down that path though - doing well enough on my own.

Diversify your strategy/system is the best advice I can give. Everything have draw downs, but for all your system/strategy to be in prolonged draw down is rare. Critical if your income is majorly from trading.

Also test everything that you think might be of value. One of my strategy is based on a concept that many people on forums/internet say will not work. I held off testing it for a few years after reading all the cautions against it. When I came back to it years later and tried it, it netted money overall every year for past 3 years. I can literally make a thread about it and guarantee it will be dismissed. So do listen to guru's advices but try to challenge those views also, if they say it won't work it means you will make a lot of money if you make it work as most others won't be doing it. You're in a trading niche gold mine.

For retail trading to me it comes down to money management. Give a trader 20 ticks opportunities who masters the setups and you've now got a future wealthy speculator. Give a gambler 100 ticks opportunities, you've got another market donor.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (26 July 2015)

minwa said:


> Left uni halfway to pursue trading. Did crappy jobs (below minimum cash in hand type) to fund my trading accounts. I was lucky to still be living at parents (was still 19) so did not have any real expenses while I honed my skills. Can't imagine how hard it would be for someone to get into this while being in salary & need to provide for his family.
> 
> Fast forward a few years I now trade for a living myself. Currently in talks with prop shops to see if it's for me. Don't need to go down that path though - doing well enough on my own.
> 
> ...




Good stuff minwa, thanks for sharing. 

Keep them coming people


----------



## barney (26 July 2015)

minwa said:


> L One of my strategy is based on a concept that many people on forums/internet say will not work. I held off testing it for a few years after reading all the cautions against it. When I came back to it years later and tried it, it netted money overall every year for past 3 years. I can literally make a thread about it and guarantee it will be dismissed.




I'm interested  ...... and I'm not the dismissive type


----------



## darkhorse70 (26 July 2015)

After 2 years of pursuing trading, a lot of ups and downs 2 weeks of live trading which ended in a loss of 1k, slowly but surely ive been succeeding.

Asf was really was the platform for my success ( i believe im on the road to be a professional trader). The site offered lots of serious critisism for my skewed views and helped me improve. 

That plus the willing help of some experienced guys on this forum has helped me really opwn my eyes to trading... especially Canoz whose been mentoring me for the last few months.

Long story short, im currently in a trading program at a prop firm. 

That is my biggest challenge so far.

Being with 9 other competitive people who are working to get your seat is no walk in the park. However i believe ill destory my competition and become a great trader.

If you believe and want it bad enough, nothing will stop youm


----------



## VSntchr (26 July 2015)

darkhorse70 said:


> Long story short, im currently in a trading program at a prop firm.




Good stuff DH70. That's really good to hear that your progressing and working diligently on this. We have seen some samurai level traders on ASF that trade prop, but (as far as I can recall) we haven't really seen much from someone getting in on the developing stage. I for one would be very interested in hearing more about it as you go.

If you don't mind me asking; what markets have they got you trading? and are they really taking the sole best trader from a group of 10?


----------



## darkhorse70 (26 July 2015)

Thanks VS. 

They pretty much focus on interest rates futures, i.e bond futures. Most prop firms in Australia that im aware of work like that.

We havent really done any sort of sim trading yet but we have a few stages to pass before we get there. 

As for how many get it, on average its from 2-3 and that number usually reduces before the first year is up. 

As far as it goes, i think i have the most xp but that doesnt really matter. It comes down to whose best fit for the role, i.e discipline, work ethic etc.

To be honest, it feels really elusive before you get into a firm. I mean, you feel like its a pipe dream but if you can dedicate 5-8 hours a day with proper guidance and learn enough such as level 2 data and expose your self to more active trading, i.e intra day, youre xp exponentially improves. Eventually being consistant is not a suprising thing and you start really understanding market action, spoof orders and manipulation.

As for sharing what they do etc, the industries are really secretive and strict in what can be talked about etc or else id go into more detail.

All i can say to the aspiring trader is find a good mentor, learn the basics And if you really want to do this for a living, you will make it.


----------



## minwa (26 July 2015)

darkhorse70 said:


> Thanks VS.
> 
> They pretty much focus on interest rates futures, i.e bond futures. Most prop firms in Australia that im aware of work like that.
> 
> ...




Sounds like Aliom to me ? 

Great stuff, even if you do not make it I'm sure you'll learn lots that you can take away. I'm sure many including myself will appreciate it if you make a thread about your experience !


----------



## darkhorse70 (26 July 2015)

Hey Minwa, I havent really been notified on what is acceptable and what isnt.

However once/if i get clarity on the situation and if i progress to the next stage where I can help with a thread like some od the other guys then ill do that.

As you said minwa, regardless of the outcome its a really big thing to have the chance to be able to go through the program. To be able to dig through the minds of really seasoned prop traders and ask them about all kinds of stuff not to mention get a better understanding of trade planning/risk control etc is priceless.


----------



## skc (26 July 2015)

darkhorse70 said:


> Long story short, im currently in a trading program at a prop firm.
> 
> That is my biggest challenge so far.
> 
> Being with 9 other competitive people who are working to get your seat is no walk in the park. However i believe ill destory my competition and become a great trader.




Wow. Darkhorse I had no idea. Well done. To be totally honest, when you first joined the forum you sound like another carefree teenager who liked to dream but not necessarily liked to work towards the dream. But it's apparent that is totally the wrong impression, judging by how tremendously, and quickly you have grown. Even your posting is now way more polished, thoughtful and mature. 

All the best with the program. It will be life changing regardless of how it works out. Do your best and continue your journey.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> Trading is the same for me, I have been working on it for a long time now, trying to be consistent etc. Trying to save up some funds and get going on my live account, doing well on sim(+60K last month trading DAX using up to 4 lots) but just can't seems like such an uphill battle to get ahead in fund my live account, something always comes up that dips into the savings  I guess you all know the feeling!




ThingMajiggy... I haven't replied to your thread earlier, but I am one of those ASF users who joined knowing nothing in Aug 2008 and ended up being a prop trader. It took me around 6 months to learn that I know nothing, another 6 months to find a profitable niche, then the profits start to come and 2 years after I started, I became quite consistent. The year after that I started to size up meaningfully (even got money from family to trade with). It was 4 years after I started I joined as an experienced trader with a prop shop by showing them my trading stats. And it's been almost 3 years now as a prop trader. So yes, it's very much possible. 

The average ASF member will never be a trader, and on average people who tried trading fail. But you can't look at the statistics of the outcome independently. How hard did the average person try? Did that average person have the right attitude and create the right environment to succeed? Nothing is guaranteed but if you don't do that your odds of success is greatly diminished. 

I see that you joined the forum in Nov 2007. I think you said you are 26 so you joined as an 18 year old. Are you telling us that, you have not been able to save enough money to fund your own live account over 8 years?! How much do you need to trade 1 DAX contract? $15-20k margin? I am trying not to pre-judge but you'd need a lot of bad luck or restricting circumstances if that's what stopping you from pursuing your dream. For 8 years!

Let me leave you with a quote by someone who inspired me today.



darkhorse70 said:


> If you believe and want it bad enough, nothing will stop you


----------



## McLovin (26 July 2015)

skc said:


> Wow. Darkhorse I had no idea. Well done. To be totally honest, when you first joined the forum you sound like another carefree teenager who liked to dream but not necessarily liked to work towards the dream. But it's apparent that is totally the wrong impression, judging by how tremendously, and quickly you have grown. Even your posting is now way more polished, thoughtful and mature.
> 
> All the best with the program. It will be life changing regardless of how it works out. Do your best and continue your journey.




Holy cr@p. I had to double check this was the same poster who wanted to open an "underground fund" last year. Well done DH. I'm amazed.


----------



## darkhorse70 (27 July 2015)

Thanks SKC/Mclovin.

Trading is one of those rare endevours in life where it gets harder day by day for a long time before it gets a little easier.

I guess me being arrogant and naive enough to have the attitude and impression i had at the beginning like you guys mentioned above set me up to fail and be dissapointed beyond belief. 

Hence leading me to want to succeed even more badly.

Once Canoz agreed to mentor me, that was like the best day of my life. You truly understand the oppurtunity and make sure that its not taken for granted.

For example, I try to inspire my younger brother and teach him all the mistakes to avoid and set him on the correct path to trading but he hasnt earned it nor bled sort of speak to understand what im truly offering. So he doesnt really care.

In the end I think most people could do well in it if they had the right guidance to lay out a good foundation. Most people might give up but if you keep going, you will eventually get your break.

Ps, i hope i dont sound cocky.
my intention was to possibly motivate some one to keep their dream alive long enough till it works out.

Kind regards

DH


----------



## darkhorse70 (27 July 2015)

Oh yeah, one mkre amazing thing ive discovered. 

As a result of all of this and the new dedication/discipline and work ethic ive built from trading, which is potentially my blue print to success, ive been trying to project
 that mind set to all aspects of my life.

It is ultimately one of those very difficult endevours which I believe if you can overcome will develop you into a very mentally strong individual.

All the best,

DH


----------



## Trembling Hand (27 July 2015)

McLovin said:


> Holy cr@p. I had to double check this was the same poster who wanted to open an "underground fund" last year. Well done DH. I'm amazed.




Indeed!  



skc said:


> I see that you joined the forum in Nov 2007. I think you said you are 26 so you joined as an 18 year old. Are you telling us that, you have not been able to save enough money to fund your own live account over 8 years?! How much do you need to trade 1 DAX contract? $15-20k margin? I am trying not to pre-judge but you'd need a lot of bad luck or restricting circumstances if that's what stopping you from pursuing your dream. For 8 years!




Yes would have to agree. That was what my long winded post was about at the start of the thread. Once you spend a bit of time looking at the markets if you have a traders brain (scary what that could actually be ) you will see what you have to do and go do it. You only need $2500 USD as min margin to trade the DAX, not much more just to take 20 or so ticks a night for a few months and build a small record for a prop shop to give you a chance.

That kind of money you can get from a credit card. Thats the path I would take rather than wasting 8 years trying to save 50 g.



Trembling Hand said:


> Sam wrong question I reckon. Its about what opportunity and path *you *can see.
> 
> Blah
> Blah
> ...


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (27 July 2015)

skc said:


> I see that you joined the forum in Nov 2007. I think you said you are 26 so you joined as an 18 year old. Are you telling us that, you have not been able to save enough money to fund your own live account over 8 years?! How much do you need to trade 1 DAX contract? $15-20k margin? I am trying not to pre-judge but you'd need a lot of bad luck or restricting circumstances if that's what stopping you from pursuing your dream. For 8 years!.




Ouch....thanks. 

So it took 3 pages but we finally have at least two people who think I should throw in the towel because of my circumstances. That's fair, I'll take that on the chin. 

For fear of getting banned, that's all I'll say. Thanks for the input skc/TH. Got to be willing to accept all input  

Feel free to keep sharing the stories everyone


----------



## Trembling Hand (27 July 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Ouch....thanks.
> 
> So it took 3 pages but we finally have at least two people who think I should throw in the towel because of my circumstances. That's fair, I'll take that on the chin.
> 
> ...




I'm not saying throw in the towel. 

I'm saying for f^ck sake commit to your own success and give it a 100% dedicated effort. You don't have to save up 30g so you can trade 4 wild DAX contracts before you have a go. You know prop will look at you if you can scratch out a little upside without digging a hole on the bad days. If that means moving to another city and taking a night job 3 for days a week as a dishwasher then do that.

If it means trading a CFD for $1 a tick for a few months do that. If it means taking ownership of what you have done up to here and saying I actually have no idea and may never then that's it to. But asking have others done it doesn't help you make the decision as to can you see what you have to do to make it. 

Mostly it aint pretty what is required to win.


----------



## skc (27 July 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Ouch....thanks.
> 
> So it took 3 pages but we finally have at least two people who think I should throw in the towel because of my circumstances. That's fair, I'll take that on the chin.
> 
> ...




No one is asking you to throw in the towel. I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. I think we are all trying to encourage you to try your best and your hardest to pursue your dream. 

We don't know your circumstance other than what you have chose to disclose... and may be there are legitimate reasons in your life that prevents you from taking that seemingly achievable first step. You don't need to explain or defend yourself to strangers on the internet... as long as you are honest with yourself and that's all it matters.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (27 July 2015)

Trembling Hand said:


> I'm not saying throw in the towel.
> 
> I'm saying for f^ck sake commit to your own success and give it a 100% dedicated effort. You don't have to save up 30g so you can trade 4 wild DAX contracts before you have a go. You know prop will look at you if you can scratch out a little upside without digging a hole on the bad days. If that means moving to another city and taking a night job 3 for days a week as a dishwasher then do that.
> 
> ...






skc said:


> No one is asking you to throw in the towel. I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. I think we are all trying to encourage you to try your best and your hardest to pursue your dream.
> 
> We don't know your circumstance other than what you have chose to disclose... and may be there are legitimate reasons in your life that prevents you from taking that seemingly achievable first step. You don't need to explain or defend yourself to strangers on the internet... as long as you are honest with yourself and that's all it matters.




Thanks guys  going to give 100%


----------



## Lone Wolf (27 July 2015)

Wall of text warning - May cause some drowsiness. Do not read before operating heavy machinery.

I'll provide some insight into the mind of the unsuccessful. This isn't directed at the OP, just a warning to eager yet undisciplined lurkers.

Have I been successful, no. Why? No dedication or focus. I might also be inept, but I haven't done enough to say. Lets look at the path I took -
After the GFC and my financial advisers advice of “Buy and hold with as much leverage as you can handle”, I decided I can lose money on my own without paying someone to do it for me. I started knowing absolutely nothing about trading. From there I got pulled in every direction. Stocks, forex, futures, options. Long term hold, end of day, intra day. Chart patterns, indicators, Elliot wave, VSA, tape reading, automated trading systems…

For the first three years all I did was work, eat, sleep and research trading. I'd spend 10-11hrs at work, come home and study trading for 4-5hrs every night. I had no life, surely I was dedicated right? Nope. In reality, trading was second place to work. That 4-5 hrs a day was when I was already mentally exhausted from my day job. My trading research covered too many topics and was too unfocused to get me anywhere. I made myself aware of many things, but not an expert at anything.

Eventually the workload in my day job grew even more. I take pride in doing my job well, so I pushed trading aside (temporarily I told myself).

So here I am now, years have passed, the more work I get done for my employer the more they throw at me. My last pay review increase was a nice round number... Zero (poor economic conditions you see). I have no life outside of work, the only people I talk to are work colleagues. My financial position is degrading with inflation. In the end I sacrificed my life for the the benefit of a company that doesn't even recognise my efforts. The effort continues because I am still dependant on them for my income. Too late I understand that leaving your financial success in the hands of an employer is a conflict of interest. Trading/investment is my only chance to make financial progress and I've poured too much into it to walk away. (there's a name for this particular form of false logic but it escapes me right now). But I've been out of it so long that I almost have to start from scratch. Trouble is that I'm burnt out now, I barely have the motivation to do the dishes each night let alone dedicate myself to a second job.

Don't end up like me, don't leave your future in others hands. But people hoping to succeed should take a good look at how dedicated they really are. Remember that how much effort you expend is a poor indicator of progress. What are you actually achieving? Is this right for you, or would your time be better spent on something else? Just don't spend your life looking for something else.

You've only got one life to live, only a limited amount of time to spend on anything in this world. Be careful what you burn your time on.


----------



## kushi212 (27 July 2015)

First of all, I would like to thank ThingyMajiggy for starting this thread. It has been really inspirational !!

I am very passionate to learn more and more about trading.
I do work full time and am struggling to find time. Just as Lone Wolf, I come home from work, and spend at least 2 hours on reading about trading. 

My main problem is lack of focus. I want to learn technical analysis, Amibroker AFL, trading strategies, etc. etc. (all at once)and I do a little bit of everything each day. With this, I am going nowhere.


I have bought a book on technical analysis Martin Pring - Technical Analysis Explained. For now, I will focus on reading it and completing it before doing anything else.

Reading success stories of other members help to increase one's self belief.

Members of ASF have been very helpful.

Thanks everyone !!!


----------



## get better (27 July 2015)

Thanks for the lessons Lone Wolf. It sounds very similar to how I first started (trying to learn everything and anything - HC was a regular source of info...).

What I realised a couple years back was that I needed a mentor to help direct/focus my efforts. I found getting this feedback very valuable and helped hone my strategy to become laser-like which has helped my performance.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2015)

Got my live account up and running finally, all set up with X_TRADER Pro, just going to slowly add to my account each pay from my day job, goal is to get to 5k-10k or so, its 2.5k to trade 1 lot on the DAX but would want a little more than that for some breathing room, but am happy because I can at least watch the live market and can trade on the sim. 

I actually have enough to trade the Stoxx futs, which I had a little go in last night, a few scratches but +5 ticks but not planning on doing that too often, was just a couple of times it was pretty obvious it was going to at least make a new low or turn for a couple ticks so I jumped on to test the execution and platform out, make sure all was well  Was actually a really quiet session last night, very range bound until the US opened, that livened it up a little. 

Now to practice up on knowing when to walk away, knowing when I'm not on it, knowing the patterns(the struggle for me at the moment, feel like I should know more setups?), knowing that if I don't know, then I'm wrong already. 

My setup....




Now I save, watch, trade


----------



## Modest (1 August 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Got my live account up and running finally, all set up with X_TRADER Pro, just going to slowly add to my account each pay from my day job, goal is to get to 5k-10k or so, its 2.5k to trade 1 lot on the DAX but would want a little more than that for some breathing room, but am happy because I can at least watch the live market and can trade on the sim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





How exciting congratulation on taking that step. Funnily enough I opened a Live futures account yesterday also. Did you try out any other Platforms other than X Trader? I Found it very difficult to use. 

Out of curiosity why the DAX? 

Good luck and keep us updated with your progress.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2015)

Modest said:


> How exciting congratulation on taking that step. Funnily enough I opened a Live futures account yesterday also. Did you try out any other Platforms other than X Trader? I Found it very difficult to use.
> 
> Out of curiosity why the DAX?
> 
> Good luck and keep us updated with your progress.




Yeah I actually wanted to go with CQG IC but its $595/month, which would impact pretty hard on my saving up to fund my account, so I've gone with X_TRADER on a transactional basis, so no monthly cost. I don't mind X_TRADER, I have used it plenty of times before so I know it fairly well, I want a direct connection to the exchange and its CQG or TT who offer that, CQG was out so TT it was  

The DAX because it's what I know, have traded it more than anything else and it's one of the best markets technically and a LOT of opportunity on there, when it moves it really moves. 

Thanks


----------



## darkhorse70 (1 August 2015)

Just be carefull on the DAX. 

An average move on the DAX can really hurt you even on 1 contract.

On sim ive played moves where a tight range breaks out by 10 points instantly. Thats 250 euro in less than a blink of an eye. Even with a 10k account thats pain full but good luck.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2015)

darkhorse70 said:


> Just be carefull on the DAX.
> 
> An average move on the DAX can really hurt you even on 1 contract.
> 
> On sim ive played moves where a tight range breaks out by 10 points instantly. Thats 250 euro in less than a blink of an eye. Even with a 10k account thats pain full but good luck.




Yeah I know, it's a beast! Thanks


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2015)

Wait for it to go.
Many times you'll see it just bounding up or down.
Jump on it.
The DAX respects S&R better than most I've traded.
If it spikes toward either----chances are it will test it.

Look for really high volume and fade it.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2015)

tech/a said:


> Look for really high volume and fade it.




You're sounding more and more like a prop trader........


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2015)

tech/a said:


> Wait for it to go.
> Many times you'll see it just bounding up or down.
> Jump on it.
> The DAX respects S&R better than most I've traded.
> ...






Trembling Hand said:


> You're sounding more and more like a prop trader........




As I said to you the other day tech, it's harder to do when its unravelling live in front of me, what do you boys do when say you get a one bar pushing up on big volume, as that's happening live that is huge volume, so you fade? Then the next bar pushes even further on even bigger volume, it's hard to tell which one is going to be the "really high volume" when it's live. 

I guess you just get chopped, out and back in again and just try to minimise the loss, suppose you can tell when it's going to go again and push further so it wouldn't be too bad....answering my own question now I guess


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2015)

Sam
Your long/short high volume until it stalls.
Youll probably see that in a 1 min bar.
Fading volume may not mean a reversal of the dominant trend unless
It's a test of S&R

Just keep watching
You'll soon see it.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 August 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> As I said to you the other day tech, it's harder to do when its unravelling live in front of me, what do you boys do when say you get a one bar pushing up on big volume, as that's happening live that is huge volume, so you fade? Then the next bar pushes even further on even bigger volume, it's hard to tell which one is going to be the "really high volume" when it's live.
> 
> I guess you just get chopped, out and back in again and just try to minimise the loss, suppose you can tell when it's going to go again and push further so it wouldn't be too bad....answering my own question now I guess




I try to wait towards the end of a period, 1 min, 5 min or 15 min. When its getting pushed on volume its dudes doing the business.imp: They aren't going to stop until they have printed the bar they want. Which is normally a nice big long candle and often just through S/R to trap the 1 lot breakout crowd.

Though you are always faced with the possibility of missing it because because for every big swinging dick there are a few hundred just as big and wanting the opposite action. The only good thing you have going in your favour is they are patient and able to hold positions way off side. So as always for every good trade idea you still need very good timing to make it work.


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2015)

Sam

I know this is hindsight but what does the volume tell you on this chart
---I've added a few hints.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2015)

tech/a said:


> Sam
> 
> I know this is hindsight but what does the volume tell you on this chart
> ---I've added a few hints.
> ...




See that scenario is a good one to check out, I'd be screwed on that chart, I'd be fading the second green circled volume bar as it's big volume like you guys said so I'd be having a go at fading that, especially after it's looked as though its been in a downtrend on the left hand edge from what I can tell? Then like I said I'd get torn a new one because it keeps pushing higher for a few bars all on "strong" volume that we should be fading? 

That first huge volume bar(first green circled bar) wouldn't that be weak? Because its got big volume AND closed in the bottom quarter of the bar, I would have probably faded that too when it was live, only thing that maybe would've made me not fade that is the massive volume, but if you just look at the bar and the way its closed, that's weak in any "textbook", hence why I need help on the "patterns", because its clearly not those kinds of patterns.


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2015)

Sam
The chart is writing a story.
There is a great deal more
Here than each individual bar
And it's associated volume.

I've labeled the bullish Bars green
The bearish bars Red
Resistance is the Blue line.

Now do a commentary from the first green bar
I'll post mine tomorrow.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2015)

Can you tell I've stared at the DOM for ages? Waaay to focused on the noise and each individual activity


----------



## tech/a (1 August 2015)

Now read the bars taking in consideration what the very NEXT bars
Say about the bars you have just commented on.

I note resistance hasn't yet been mentioned?


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (1 August 2015)

tech/a said:


> Now read the bars taking in consideration what the very NEXT bars
> Say about the varsity you have just commented on.
> 
> I note resistance hasn't yet been mentioned?




Is that blue line up the top resistance? Okay that changes it, just thought it was a random line(or the crosshairs or something). I would be more inclined to think it was heading there once the high of the huge volume bar(first green one) was pushed through. How do you read it?  

This is me trading now on market replay of the DAX, just a one minute chart @ 10x speed trying to get my eye in. This was Monday's session that I replayed just now, zoomed out to see all my trades, waaaay too focused on the noise I think, hence why I snapped and held onto that big winner that got me back to break even, then traded okay. 




Bigger picture, bigger picture, bigger picture


----------



## Newt (1 August 2015)

Lone Wolf said:


> Wall of text warning - May cause some drowsiness. Do not read before operating heavy machinery.
> 
> I'll provide some insight into the mind of the unsuccessful. This isn't directed at the OP, just a warning to eager yet undisciplined lurkers.
> 
> ...






Great post Lone Wolf, and good advice for all of us to remember what's important in life.  Its easy to think if you throw everything at trading, find success, and get some money under your belt everything will come together for you.  

Many great traders (Linda BR, Nick Radge, Darryl Guppy come to mind) emphasise how important it is to be happy in yourself and balanced in your life pursuits.  "Enjoy the journey" Nick wrote inside my copy of Unholy Grails, and its b good advice.

I hope you find success in your trading LW and zero in on a timeframe, markets and technique that works for you.  Peter2 has made some great posts about different people's trading styles in recent days in his trading thread.  Burning out in life and trading is not a good platform for success.


----------



## tech/a (2 August 2015)

Sam

Don't want to clutter this thread with this stuff Perhaps Joe could move all the volume stuff to another 
more appropriate thread.
A fair bit here as an understanding of Volume and how it works is critical if your going to trade the DAX (Or anything else really)

By the way This is how I do it. Not how a book does it.

*Click to expand*


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (2 August 2015)

tech/a said:


> Sam
> 
> Don't want to clutter this thread with this stuff Perhaps Joe could move all the volume stuff to another
> more appropriate thread.
> ...




Thanks John, can continue via email?


----------



## tech/a (2 August 2015)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Thanks John, can continue via email?




If the discussion is beneficial to others then perhaps have Joe transfer it to one of the VSA threads.


----------



## Trembling Hand (2 August 2015)

Tech are the futures charts? They look like EOD penny terribles?


----------



## tech/a (2 August 2015)

Trembling Hand said:


> Tech are the futures charts? They look like EOD penny terribles?




I mentioned on the charts that it is a daily
Volume is enough to be relevant futures far more liquid
And are better I agree.
There are plenty on the DAX 
Should do a few on a dedicated thread


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 August 2015)

TH, regarding those guys creating the candles on the 5,10 and 15 min chart I was nailing them on the DAX.

However when i moved on to the FESX, i kept getting bloody smoked. 

The markets were way to thick and that type of manipulation was much less obvious.

Ive been struggling so hard on the thicker markets.

I.e on the DAX when the bids thickened up on the DOM and the markets looked like they were set up nicely for a contrarian play, i.e the markets looked like they had a nice support but i was short then id be more than happy to see the bids thicken up.

To me those were the herds trying to support that or b) the smart money creating like some sort of spoofing move.

But on the fesx when the bids or offers thickened they usually hold.

Obviously it was all a matter of context.

I.e whos in the market, what type of trading day cycle is it, i.e range, trending blah blah blah.


However im not going to stop till I figure out how to trade thicker markets.

A well rounded trader is the best type of trader imo.


----------



## tech/a (2 August 2015)

Personally I'm happy to settle for profitable.
I think that just knowing one specialty is ample


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 August 2015)

Thats true tech, but for example say there is no present opportunity in one market for the day.

That could promote taking on silly trades or if you're lucky enough to trade multiple correlating markets in terms of liquidity etc then sticking to one style could work. However if you can adapt to several different trading styles then your opportunities increase tremendously and it only contributes to promoting a better trading style in the long run.

For example I was doing really great at the dax but couldn't really get the hang of the fesx. Now if you look at the bond markets, depending on which maturities youre trading, some have a range of one to two ticks A DAY !

Imagine trying to trade several hundred points a day to possibly one point.

A huge psychological challenge.


----------



## tech/a (2 August 2015)

Sure you can do as you say.

But you don't need to trade every session
Or every day.

You might miss the next bull market or the next crash or the next
Housing boom or bust.

You only need to get ONE!


----------



## darkhorse70 (2 August 2015)

Thats true.

BUT (lol) it is a craft and the more reps you do, the better you get or the closer youll get to surviving this game long enough to make some real $.

But yeah it only takes one time and i guess personal preference.


----------



## skc (3 August 2015)

darkhorse70 said:


> Thats true.
> 
> BUT (lol) it is a craft and the more reps you do, the better you get or the closer youll get to surviving this game long enough to make some real $.
> 
> But yeah it only takes one time and i guess personal preference.




Depends on whether you are trying to be a full time trader who generates $$ consistently, or a part time market player who generates $$ only when the conditions are right.


----------



## Toothyfish (3 August 2015)

Inspired by your stories I would like to share my journey too.
I was drawn into trading during the tech boom as a 20yr old who had a life savings of $10g.
I had tripled the account and blew it during the tech crash. This was pray and hope trading.
I was now hooked to trading and vowed to get my money back.
I dedicated my life to trading. Like lone wolf, all my time and weekends was dedicated to research into trading. I learnt TA, Elliott, Gann, VSA. It was all scattered and I started discretionary trading with a 20g account. My new life savings.
This was at a cost to my professional career and personal social life.
I no longer had time for friends or developing my profession. I just wanted to go home and read more books on trading. Using a combination of options and futures.
I managed to turn my 20g account into 70g before again blowing it in 2004 due to lack of money management.. I had a bitter taste and could not look at the markets for 2 years.
With a new life savings I was motivated to start trading again. This time I was dedicated to mechanical trading. Again, all my time as spent learnibg to program first in metastock, then easylanguagefor tradestation and then C#. 
By this time I had spent in excess of 150g in educational courses and trading systems. I started with a 100g account this time and increased it to $500g
 But then came the taxman who took $200g in taxes and I suffered a major drawdown of $100g again due to poor money management.
In 2009, I was a single with no social life and a job I despised. All the automated systems I developed or purchased were not consistent. 
I was disillusioned with trading and decided it was a casino and quit. I was a depressed, living at home. 32 yr old.
I focused on my career and social life and was generally in a happier place.
I setup my own busines, got married and felt I could look at the markets again. In 2012 I started with a new account of 100g. The past 3 years I have managed a much more modest 30g annual return. For me this is the sweet spot to subsidize my income and beable to sleep at night.
I don't know if there is a moral to the story but I think psychology and money management was were I failed to develop. I still struggle with discipline. I feel you need to have your life in order and a balanced life to trade effectively otherwise the stress will get to you.
My favourite instruments these days is futures indexes. SP500 and Aussie SPI.
I no longer am interested in options or stocks and have never really tried commodities.
Ihave an interest in trading currencies but do not feel I have enought capital and have not been able to develop any system that I feel comfortable using.


----------



## myrtie100 (3 August 2015)

tech/a said:


> Sam
> 
> Don't want to clutter this thread with this stuff Perhaps Joe could move all the volume stuff to another
> more appropriate thread.
> ...




Tech/a what did the next bar do?
Stall at resistance?


----------



## tech/a (3 August 2015)

myrtie100 said:


> Tech/a what did the next bar do?
> Stall at resistance?




Yes it did but its still an open long trade if I was in it.




The chart is *ADO* if you want to follow it.

In fact I like it to continue on. (Kiss of death!)


----------



## myrtie100 (3 August 2015)

tech/a said:


> (Kiss of death!)




Haha, maybe...
The last candle to me shows weakness, closing on the low.
However that level might be support?
It's a low volume bar too - whatever that might mean.

Thanks tech I'm watching it


----------



## Newt (3 August 2015)

Toothyfish said:


> I feel you need to have your life in order and a balanced life to trade effectively otherwise the stress will get to you.




Thanks for sharing Toothyfish.  Whole-heartedly agree this is an essential pre-requisite and easy to dismiss in the initial obsession for success.  Trading reliably for profit is tough, but doing so for many years consistently requires drive with balance.  We're fortunate to have so many mentors that share their time, experience and often very different trading/investing in this forum, but ultimately you have to find what works for yourself so you c an sleep at night.


----------



## tech/a (4 August 2015)

*ADO* showed its colours today.
Hit my stop line.
Low volume so not convincing.
I'm of the opinion this will be a pull back before continuing.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (13 August 2015)

Toothyfish said:


> Inspired by your stories I would like to share my journey too.
> I was drawn into trading during the tech boom as a 20yr old who had a life savings of $10g.
> I had tripled the account and blew it during the tech crash. This was pray and hope trading.
> I was now hooked to trading and vowed to get my money back.
> ...




great post thanks for sharing.


----------



## CanOz (26 September 2015)

I finally found time to post a reply in this thread, excuse the book length….

My trading journey start in 2005 in the midst of the mining boom. I took a 7k account to nearly 20k in a matter of months, trading part time at work while things were idle. After that I switched to CFDs without enough knowledge and lost it all but the original capital. It was that moment where I knew I needed some help. Nick Radge got me into swing trading and I did quite well part time after work with his power setups. I’ve been swing trading on off until IB cut the margin.

Intra-day is much tougher, it is much harder to learn. For me it seemed I had to start all over again. I started to learn this by mostly sim trading after I left my job in 2011. After 4 long years and a few breaks in between I am finally making progress during what could be my last attempt at this. I’m finally having profitable weeks not just days and I am currently trying to put a track record together. My equity curve is still not pretty though, its quite bumpy…

My biggest weakness is knowing when to just sit on my hands and wait for my plays. My biggest losses occur when I revenge trade, or try and make up losses, I trade the P/L instead of waiting for my key plays to show up. My strength is being able to sense the direction of the market, but having the conviction or the belief in my intuition is still poor at times…. A big problem for me was the pressure I felt once I was in the trade, especially on the Dax. I swapped over to the Eurostoxx and the Bund for a few months and was much better with those thicker markets. They gave me more time to make decisions. .. My plays are a mix between momentum and mean reversion. I’m still enamored with the Dax though, something about the way it sweeps just keeps me coming back. I’ve open a CFD account now for my swing trading and they have index CFDs on the Dax, they have A$1 and Euro5 minis. I find now that because of the smaller size I am much more comfortable scaling in and out of trades. I feel its vital to be able to trade multiple contracts and my account is just not big enough to do that with the Dax futures. I still use the Dom and my Dax futures workspace but execute on the CFD platform. Its early days yet but I feel much calmer now, able to take more heat. The fills I’ve been getting are actually better than I was getting on my AMP and IB accounts, likely because they only need to go to IG’s server and not the exchange. I still trade 1 momentum play on my AMP futures account, because I take almost no heat for it and I can get a decent fill most of the time.

Another area I need great improvement on is a trading journal and my record keeping. I start journals but can’t keep them going. I’ve always been poor at this. I’d rather be planning the session, looking for levels and analyzing intermarkets than writing in a journal…serious weakness and it speaks to my lack of discipline..I'm going to try Edgewonk next week.

The last thing I wanted to mention were the challenges I’ve had trading from China. I don’t use these as excuses but I can’t help but wonder how good I could be without these issues…
I need a spare data vendor because there are times when I simply cannot connect to my broker. At times my data locks up in the middle of a trade and I have had to hedge off on my other broker until I can get re-connected. This happens despite having a 20mb line and my AMP server in Singapore. I guess that this is from the firewall China has in place.

I don’t need the money that trading can provide, we have ample savings from years of hard work, but it is the sheer challenge that keeps me coming back over and over again. I know I can excel at this, I’m good at reading the market structure and planning before the session. I’m good at managing the trade once I’m in profit, I have areas to improve when it comes to pulling the trigger and having the conviction to stay through heat. Unfortunately I think my wife has had enough with my trading. She doesn’t understand it and doesn’t want to. Sometimes when people don’t understand how difficult something is, they lose interest in supporting you. That said, she’s supported me doing this for three years, in between some other work assignments. I’ve made enough money with those assignments to keep our comfortable lifestyle while we keep our savings for Australia. We’re moving to Brisbane soon and I really hope by then I can have enough of a track record to interest a shop, or at least convince her that I can do this full time… I’m good at swing trading too, so I want to build that track record again, then trade my super when I get back.

The last thing I wanted to mention is that it seems there are not many outright directional traders around anymore. I’m pretty good friends with a big spread trader from an Australian firm. He’s done well out of trading and he never trades outrights. Only knows 1 guy who does. For a long time I really wondered if it was possible to be profitable trading outrights at all, unless you were a trading savant like TH…my short term goal is to be profitable and have enough credibility to be able to instruct others. I want to give back somehow, perhaps save others from some of the mistakes I made. I know at my age I won't have long to trade intraday, my eyesight is not great as it is now. 

Last again, thanks to all the prop guys here, TH, Skyquake, SKC and also to minwa. You guys are inspirational....

PS....sorry for rambling on...


----------



## tech/a (26 September 2015)

Great journey Can

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Modest (26 September 2015)

Awesome thanks for posting CanOz


----------



## CanOz (26 September 2015)

aaackkk! Sorry for all the 'lasts'...i wish i could edit them out


----------



## tech/a (26 September 2015)

CanOz said:


> aaackkk! Sorry for all the 'lasts'...i wish i could edit them out




Understandable
"Lasts" are on going


----------



## Newt (26 September 2015)

Top  stuff CanOz.  Have always been guided by your honest posts on what's worked and hasn't worked for you.
You haven't been tempted back to stocks at any time during your futures adventures at all?


----------



## CanOz (26 September 2015)

Newt said:


> Top  stuff CanOz.  Have always been guided by your honest posts on what's worked and hasn't worked for you.
> You haven't been tempted back to stocks at any time during your futures adventures at all?




I've wanted to get back into swing trading since I left my last work assignment, but since IB cut margin for Aussies, I had to quit. So with my cfd account I can now swing trade again!


----------



## kid hustlr (27 September 2015)

CanOz said:


> .* The fills I’ve been getting are actually better than I was getting on my AMP and IB accounts,*




For someone who's experiences many of yours this is a really great thing to hear.


----------



## VSntchr (28 September 2015)

CanOz said:


> Another area I need great improvement on is a trading journal and my record keeping. I start journals but can’t keep them going. I’ve always been poor at this. I’d rather be planning the session, looking for levels and analyzing intermarkets than writing in a journal…serious weakness and it speaks to my lack of discipline..I'm going to try Edgewonk next week.



Let us know what you think of Edgewonk mate. I've made my own excel based journal which has become quite comprehensive (for my requirements) after improving it each year...but looking at the edgewonk youtube video - it looks pretty awesome. 



CanOz said:


> PS....sorry for rambling on...



Don't be sorry, we love the ramblings!


----------



## skc (28 September 2015)

Thanks for sharing CanOz. 



CanOz said:


> Unfortunately I think my wife has had enough with my trading. She doesn’t understand it and doesn’t want to. Sometimes when people don’t understand how difficult something is, they lose interest in supporting you. That said, she’s supported me doing this for three years, in between some other work assignments. I’ve made enough money with those assignments to keep our comfortable lifestyle while we keep our savings for Australia.




A couple of suggestions to get your wife on side (or at least off your back), if you haven't done these already.
- Make sure she knows how big the financial rewards can be. She may well be off by an order of magnitude.
- Discuss lifestyle benefits... working from home vs being away on assignments. Especially important given you have a young family. This includes the 12 hours a week that you don't need to spend travelling to and from work.
- Discuss how you can take holidays at anytime of your choosing.
- Offer incentives to her / the family given certain milestones. E.g. Will make this renovation when I make $Y from trading over next 6 months, or if I have a cracker month when I make >$X.



CanOz said:


> *We’re moving to Brisbane *soon




May be a small Brissie Xmas gathering of the ASFer's? We just need to structure so it's tax deductible.



CanOz said:


> I know at my age I won't have long to trade intraday, my eyesight is not great as it is now.




Get someone to look at that asap. It's too valuable and not just for trading!


----------



## VSntchr (28 September 2015)

skc said:


> May be a small Brissie Xmas gathering of the ASFer's? We just need to structure so it's tax deductible.



Count me in!


----------



## skc (28 September 2015)

VSntchr said:


> Count me in!


----------



## Gringotts Bank (28 September 2015)

skc said:


>




Leave the wife at home.  He's not called V-snatcher for nothing.


----------



## tech/a (28 September 2015)

> Unfortunately I think my wife has had enough with my trading. She doesn’t understand it and doesn’t want to. Sometimes when people don’t understand how difficult something is, they lose interest in supporting you.




My wife hates trading and anything related to it.
She cant accept that you'll lose money from time to time
Just like any other business. A few months of my own Company trading where 
some are negative months---sort of made a light switch.
She sees it as gambling. 

The way around it for me is I have an account solely funded from 
other business interests and Just use that.
I never talk to her about trading. She never asks.

Just keep her happy Can. No financial worries is about the only thing that I know of that does the trick.


----------



## Newt (28 September 2015)

VSntchr said:


> Count me in!




Me too, depending on timing.


----------



## shouldaindex (28 September 2015)

There's really only 2 outcomes.

You're a net winner over 5-10 years and your bank account makes everyone happy.

Or you don't.

My personal opinion is that money (after paying to stay alive) is the least important thing that causes the most amount of problems.


----------



## Trembling Hand (28 September 2015)

shouldaindex said:


> There's really only 2 outcomes.




Life is a lot more complex than 2 outcomes. Especially when partners are involved.


----------



## CanOz (30 September 2015)

skc said:


> Thanks for sharing CanOz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the advice SKC and everyone else!

Count me in on the Christmas get together, if we're there by then!


----------



## subterfuge (30 September 2015)

5 years of fairly consistent losses so far! 

If it wasn't for one particularly amazing trader who I got to 'watch' (called his trades live in skype) live for a number of months everyday, who had about an 80% hit rate on the ES with 2 point stops and 6 point target (they varied, but that's a fairly accurate average) making tens of thousands per day, I'd be certain that it's not actually possible. 

I live in hope!


----------



## Newt (1 October 2015)

subterfuge said:


> 5 years of fairly consistent losses so far!
> 
> If it wasn't for one particularly amazing trader who I got to 'watch' (called his trades live in skype) live for a number of months everyday, who had about an 80% hit rate on the ES with 2 point stops and 6 point target (they varied, but that's a fairly accurate average) making tens of thousands per day, I'd be certain that it's not actually possible.
> 
> I live in hope!




People often use the analogy of learning an instrument, or reading a book on golf and expecting to win a masters tournament.  Your post reminded me when I used to teach keyboards (music) many years ago.  A young family was all taking lessons and becoming convinced it wasn't possible to read music in realtime, play with both hands - let alone with feeling etc.  

It seems a lot easier to convince ourselves we'll read a few posts and books and succeed at trading somehow.


----------

