# Where can I buy gold and silver?



## rhyslivs

I had a search through some other threads but nothing was really clear cut.

I am interested in buying gold and silver, but predominately silver. Not necessarily physical gold and silver but more an ownership of some gold or silver somewhere that I can trade. The other thread mentioned futures contracts. Maybe this is what I am after.

Basically I want to buy and sell gold or silver but I dont want the stuff to rock up on my doorstep.

Lend me your knowledge kind gentlemen and women.

Thanks,

Rhys


----------



## prawn_86

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*

Type 'GOLD' into your brokers platform as the stock code. Not sure what the code for silver is...


----------



## rhyslivs

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*

Thanks, been going through the PDS, it seems pretty legit. 

It also mentions silver in the PDS but it doesnt come up on my brokers site.

the is taken from the PDS:



> ETFS Physical Gold * GOLD
> ETFS Physical Silver ETPMAG
> ETFS Physical Platinum ETPMPT
> ETFS Physical Palladium ETPMPD
> ETFS Physical PM Basket ETPMPM




sticking ETPMAG on my platform says it doesnt exist.. not quite sure what is going on there.


----------



## Peter2047

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*

I read somewhere about the risk of holding precious metal ETF.
For example, GLD of SPDR Gold Shares ETF, where HSBC is the custodian of the gold bullion, but there is no sure way to ensure that the bank will hold the physical gold all the time. The bank may choose to lease out the gold bullion.

Thus, precious metal ETF is not 100% the same as physical precious metal.


----------



## michael_selway

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Peter2047 said:


> I read somewhere about the risk of holding precious metal ETF.
> For example, GLD of SPDR Gold Shares ETF, where HSBC is the custodian of the gold bullion, but there is no sure way to ensure that the bank will hold the physical gold all the time. The bank may choose to lease out the gold bullion.
> 
> Thus, precious metal ETF is not 100% the same as physical precious metal.




Hey thanks, interesting stuff

*ETFS Physical Gold GOLD
ETFS Physical Silver ETPMAG
ETFS Physical Platinum ETPMPT
ETFS Physical Palladium ETPMPD
ETFS Physical PM Basket ETPMPM*







thx

MS


----------



## Jikx

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Peter2047 said:


> Thus, precious metal ETF is not 100% the same as physical precious metal.




I know when I read the disclosure of Gold (Asx:GOLD), that they do no lease out their gold. ETF is not the same you're correct, because there's still some sovereign risk, and fraud risk. On the other hand, physical gold has theft risk and liquidity risks. 

I hold GOLD btw.


----------



## rhen

I have done no further research on this as yet so I offer this link for the careful investors' consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvBemJyYhsg


----------



## Ageo

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Jikx said:


> On the other hand, physical gold has theft risk and *liquidity* risks.




I love reading posts like these, ok Jikx please explain to me how physical gold has liquidity risks??????

The reason i ask is because gold is actually 1 of the most liquid physical items there is. I know this from experience.


----------



## beamstas

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Ageo said:


> I love reading posts like these, ok Jikx please explain to me how physical gold has liquidity risks??????
> 
> The reason i ask is because gold is actually 1 of the most liquid physical items there is. I know this from experience.




In my experience, gold is quite solid, infact if you drop it none will splash. It is like the opposite of a liquid 

Seriously though, (i've never dealt with real gold -- only gold cfd's), you can't just walk down the street and sell a bar of gold to someone. You'd have to arrange to sell it, arrange proper transport etc. I'm not sure how much or how little of a hassle this would be, but i'd never buy real gold for the risk of theft! (I don't have a bankvault with red lasers pointing in every direction) 

Brad


----------



## rhen

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Ageo said:


> I love reading posts like these, ok Jikx please explain to me how physical gold has liquidity risks??????
> 
> The reason i ask is because gold is actually 1 of the most liquid physical items there is. I know this from experience.




I would be very interested in reading about some of _this_ experience.


----------



## numbercruncher

GOLD gold is physically held at the London Vaults of HSBC Bank USA. Do we trust these turkeys ?

ZAUWBA is a Perth mint gold product (call warrants)  - ZAUWBA is is issued by Gold Corporation (a subsidiary of the Western Australia State Government)


----------



## Jikx

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Ageo said:


> ok Jikx please explain to me how physical gold has liquidity risks??????




I'll explain my logic of liquidity risk. I believe what you're talking about is the event of extreme circumstance. What I'm talking about is day to day life. Say you're in dire straights (accident, massive bills due immediately, whatever), how much time does it take to convert Gold to cash, vs Shares (assuming market is open), Cash (bank is always open)?

It can be difficult to exchange for cash, storage requirements, and high transaction costs. All this impinges on liquidity.

As Beamstas stated, in normal times you can't just go to the shop and pay with gold. You have to remember, not everyone buys gold for apocalyptic scenarios.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Jikx said:


> It can be difficult to exchange for cash, storage requirements, and high transaction costs. All this impinges on liquidity.




If I want to sell my shares, comsec will take 3 days to deposit the cash in my account, then I have to go to the bank and get it out.

If I want to sell my gold I can walk into Aus Bullion this very second and hand them all my gold and they will give me spot subtracted by some recency fees. Ideally if I want full spot price I will have to wait 3 days for assaying.

I can walk into any pawn broker and get cash on loan for the gold also.


----------



## White_Knight

You can also flog off your gold coins at a premium to spot price on ebay...


----------



## Ageo

Im glad there is a lot of interest in this as i would gladly shed some light on it.

My main business is buying and selling scrap gold, i roughly buy around 10kgs minimum each month but these last few weeks has been hectic.

Now if a person rang me this morning and said i have $100,000 in gold (jewellery, bars, broken etc...) and she was within driving distance i would go there test everything and pay her on the spot. If for any reason i cannot make it i would lock in the price of gold on that day and make a time to catch up (which means she would be hedged incase of a downturn).

Now in terms of theft well if your already holding onto the gold then there is no "added" risk. Of course most of my business is from referrals so people trust me (trust is a big thing in this game).

Logistics is no problem as i travel to people and i dont charge people to test their stock.

I hope this has helped with some of your questions and as i said before gold is 1 of the most liquid items out there.

P.S I had a customer who got sacked from work and was going to forclose on his house. Luckily they had around 2kgs of old broken gold laying around (they were indian so they collect it for many many yrs) anywayz i got a phone call and that afternoon i took their gold off them and handed them around 60k in cash.

Now if thats not liquid then i have no idea what is.

P.SS sinner no refiner buys scrap on the spot unless they are high volume traders.


----------



## Jikx

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



sinner said:


> If I want to sell my shares, comsec will take 3 days to deposit the cash in my account, then I have to go to the bank and get it out.
> 
> If I want to sell my gold I can walk into Aus Bullion this very second and hand them all my gold and they will give me spot subtracted by some recency fees. Ideally if I want full spot price I will have to wait 3 days for assaying.
> 
> I can walk into any pawn broker and get cash on loan for the gold also.




Let's be sensible here, you haven't discounted the fact that Gold does liquidity risk. For example, if I had one thousand ounces of Gold, can it still be sold at the same rate as if I had a million dollars worth of blue chip shares? Perhaps it can, but which is easier? Which has turnover?

Liquidity risk also implies that you will lose value if you attempt to sell it too quickly. Also, you also have to physically go and exchange the Gold. As I mentioned earlier, if you were in an accident, you cannot exchange it. Pawn shop for Gold is a guaranteed way of losing much of it's value.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying Shares are not without liquidity risk, but I believe shares and definitely cash, is a lot lower. Overall, my argument is that for the average investor (not apocalytic scenario), an EFT metals stock is of much greater worth than the same amount buried in their backyard.

Let's move from the micro to the macro. How many houses are sold/bought in Australia everyday? How much Gold is bought and sold? How many shares are traded? How much cash is exchanged? 

Cash > Shares > Gold > Property

If this is not the defining aspect of liquidity, I don't know what is.


----------



## sinner

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Jikx said:


> Let's be sensible here, you haven't discounted the fact that Gold does liquidity risk. For example, if I had one thousand ounces of Gold, can it still be sold at the same rate as if I had a million dollars worth of blue chip shares? Perhaps it can, but which is easier? Which has turnover?
> 
> Liquidity risk also implies that you will lose value if you attempt to sell it too quickly. Also, you also have to physically go and exchange the Gold. As I mentioned earlier, if you were in an accident, you cannot exchange it. Pawn shop for Gold is a guaranteed way of losing much of it's value.
> 
> Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying Shares are not without liquidity risk, but I believe shares and definitely cash, is a lot lower. Overall, my argument is that for the average investor (not apocalytic scenario), an EFT metals stock is of much greater worth than the same amount buried in their backyard.
> 
> Let's move from the micro to the macro. How many houses are sold/bought in Australia everyday? How much Gold is bought and sold? How many shares are traded? How much cash is exchanged?
> 
> Cash > Shares > Gold > Property
> 
> If this is not the defining aspect of liquidity, I don't know what is.




You are just talking, you have no experience in buying or selling gold.

1000 ounces is only 2.5 400oz LBMA bars the standard unit size for the London Bullion Market (hence the name) and minted as such, I doubt you would have trouble "cashing" these in at any reputable bullion dealer of which there are plenty.


----------



## kransky

Ageo said:


> P.S I had a customer who got sacked from work and was going to forclose on his house. Luckily they had around 2kgs of old broken gold laying around (they were indian so they collect it for many many yrs) anywayz i got a phone call and that afternoon i took their gold off them and handed them around 60k in cash.




2kg = 2000 grams = 64 ounces
AUD $1370/ounce = $87k

are these people just dumb that they accept such low price/ounce?


----------



## Jikx

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



sinner said:


> You are just talking, you have no experience in buying or selling gold.
> ...
> I doubt you would have trouble "cashing" these in at any reputable bullion dealer of which there are plenty.






Wow talk about not addressing any of the points I'm raising. I'll reliterate: I'm talking about the liquidity, how easy it is to buy and sell, the level of transactions occur at a economy wide level. Surely you cannot argue that the turnover of Gold is greater than that of Cash or Shares? That is what liquidity is, and that's why I stated it is of greater liquidity risk.

If you accept Gold is traded less than Cash or Shares, then you must accept that Gold is of a higher liquidity risk. And please, no more talk about how easy it is for you to exchange your gold for $X - that doesn't show me the market depth and measure of liquidity. 

What you can show me is how much Gold is turned over daily, and if it is greater than cash/shares, then I will accept it has less liquidy risk. I'm not that stubborn - I simply don't accept anecdotes.


----------



## Ageo

kransky said:


> 2kg = 2000 grams = 64 ounces
> AUD $1370/ounce = $87k
> 
> are these people just dumb that they accept such low price/ounce?




Kransky is you read my post you would have noticed i mentioned scrap.

For those that dont know scrap is all forms of karat gold (9ct, 18ct, 22ct jewellery, bars etc...) its not fine gold (bullion, coins that are pure).

So your not getting fine gold price (plus when i bought it gold was much lower than it is now).


----------



## Ageo

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Jikx said:


> Let's be sensible here, you haven't discounted the fact that Gold does liquidity risk. For example, if I had one thousand ounces of Gold, can it still be sold at the same rate as if I had a million dollars worth of blue chip shares? Perhaps it can, but which is easier? Which has turnover?





Jikx just to answer this question i had 1 order that was worth $2million which was done in 3 days. Now it might not be as fast as selling shares but you cannot say gold has liquidity problems.

P.S we are talking about scrap here also not pure gold.

Hope this helps


----------



## moXJO

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Jikx said:


> Wow talk about not addressing any of the points I'm raising. I'll reliterate: I'm talking about the liquidity, how easy it is to buy and sell, the level of transactions occur at a economy wide level. Surely you cannot argue that the turnover of Gold is greater than that of Cash or Shares? That is what liquidity is, and that's why I stated it is of greater liquidity risk.
> 
> .




I would agree. Gold EFT's are the lazy mans way of trading gold. And all without having to source a good price. I think people are more concerned with protecting assets atm though.


----------



## Jikx

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Ageo said:


> Now it might not be as fast as selling shares but you cannot say gold has liquidity problems.
> 
> P.S we are talking about scrap here also not pure gold.
> 
> Hope this helps




Ah, yes I see what we're arguing about now. We talking about different things. I talk of liquidity risks, not to say that it has liquidity problems, only that it is more illiquid. Let's just call it a padentic relic from studying finance


----------



## Ageo

*Re: Were Can I Buy Gold & Silver?*



Jikx said:


> Ah, yes I see what we're arguing about now. We talking about different things. I talk of liquidity risks, not to say that it has liquidity problems, only that it is more illiquid. Let's just call it a padentic relic from studying finance




Yep i think i know where your coming from too, i was coming from an individual point of view and i think you were talking from an overall aspect.

Apples and Oranges my friend 

Its good to see both points of view thow


----------



## coulldc

Try the Perth mint where you can buy gold bullion bars


----------



## bongcso

rhyslivs said:


> I had a search through some other threads but nothing was really clear cut.
> 
> I am interested in buying gold and silver, but predominately silver. Not necessarily physical gold and silver but more an ownership of some gold or silver somewhere that I can trade. The other thread mentioned futures contracts. Maybe this is what I am after.
> 
> Basically I want to buy and sell gold or silver but I dont want the stuff to rock up on my doorstep.
> 
> Lend me your knowledge kind gentlemen and women.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rhys




Rhys,
Like you I also want to own gold and silver without the hassle of having to deal with the physical commodity. I buy the ETF which is GLD for gold and SLV for silver. These are traded on the US exchanges. I buy them using my account with a US broker but I believe you should be able to buy them via your local broker who do international shares. GLD is similar to GOLD which is traded on the ASX but what I prefer GLD because it has options so you can protect your downside by buying put options if you need.

Christina


----------



## Bron Suchecki

*Liquidity*

When talking about liqudity, the form of gold is important. To start with, the MINIMUM acceptable trading unit in the professional gold market is 1000oz, ie USD 1m. What is the depth of the market? The clearing turnover in the London bullion market averages $22.4 billion a day. Now that is clearing (ie net), not actual trade volume and is only for the London market. My view is that wholesale gold is actually more liquid than blue chip shares.

Since ASX products like GOLD or ZAUWBA or the Perth Mint's Depository accounts have connections into the professional market, effectively liqudity is the same. You have a couple of million in your Depository account and want to sell it, no problem, it will not "move the market" and as the bullion market works on 2 day settlement, you will get your cash quicker than shares on ASX which are 3 days.

On to physical gold which you hold personally. Yes this will have more "settlement" delays because you have to get the gold to the dealer before they will pay you. That is all a function of how close you are to a dealer. There is also the question of whether it is in a recognised form (coins or bars) or not, if the former then there will be no delay. But it is fair to say that physical gold is less liquid than shares.


----------



## Ageo

*Re: Liquidity*



Bron Suchecki said:


> On to physical gold which you hold personally. Yes this will have more "settlement" delays because you have to get the gold to the dealer before they will pay you. That is all a function of how close you are to a dealer. There is also the question of whether it is in a recognised form (coins or bars) or not, if the former then there will be no delay. But it is fair to say that physical gold is less liquid than shares.




Bron just out of curiosity how long do you think it takes to say sell $1million worth of 2ndhand jewellery? (or any other forms of scrap gold)?

Im talking about getting cash or money into your hand?


----------



## Bron Suchecki

Ultimately scrap gold must be refined into a tradable form that can be sold in the professional market. For that sort of quantity you would have to sell it to a sizable refiner I would think. We are then talking about refining times, again quite variable and also affected by whether you are a one-off client or regular - do you think AGR Matthey would hold back refining Newmont's dore so you can get your 1000oz done as fast as possible? Consider that AGR refines average of USD 180m per week (6tonne).

I'd say generally 2 weeks, but I'm not close to that side of the business. You might be able to get a better deal from refiners on the eastern states, say Focus Metals, but I don't know their capacity and turnaround to do 1000oz of scap.


----------



## oremo

I believe that silver is a good investment right now.

I need some advice on how to invest say $10k

Am I better off investing in a silver miner or CFD's?

Going long...say 12 - 24 months.

I'd appreciate some good feedback

Thanks in advance


----------



## poguemahone

Perth Mint do certificates Unallocated.. Great for the punter with no closet space. 

Now if u want it allocated you can have it stored onsite for 1% per yr ? + fabrication cost - $35 per ounce I believe.

Anyway it is good to know that the gold you bought you can physically touch,hold,chip a bit off for bread  etc.

I am mad for silver at the moment..they do that to!

Do your own research blah on the gold/silver...maybe try typing "who owns the federal reserve" onto Google  thats researching...


----------



## Ageo

Bron Suchecki said:


> Ultimately scrap gold must be refined into a tradable form that can be sold in the professional market. For that sort of quantity you would have to sell it to a sizable refiner I would think. We are then talking about refining times, again quite variable and also affected by whether you are a one-off client or regular - do you think AGR Matthey would hold back refining Newmont's dore so you can get your 1000oz done as fast as possible? Consider that AGR refines average of USD 180m per week (6tonne).
> 
> I'd say generally 2 weeks, but I'm not close to that side of the business. You might be able to get a better deal from refiners on the eastern states, say Focus Metals, but I don't know their capacity and turnaround to do 1000oz of scap.




2 weeks to refine yes but how long to sell $1million worth of scrap gold and get the cash in your hand (be it personal or business stock). The answer is 3 days from start to finish.

How do i know? its part of my line of work 

I dont know why people insist on physical gold being illiquid but it is far from it.


----------



## Bron Suchecki

Ageo,

3 day turnaround on scrap, very good. When I said physical less liquid than shares, I was talking about large quantities as you may have to ship them to a dealer. If you have a few ounces all you have to do is get to your coin/bullion dealer and you'll get cash over the counter, so in that case, more liquid than shares.

To me, liquidity is also not so much about time to settle, but the ability to execute without affecting the price, ie depth of market as well. In this respect gold is very liquid. There would be plenty of examples of shares where if you tried to sell $1m you would move the price down significantly.

Jikx, is $22.4 billion a day in net clearing in just one (but major) market liquid enough? Unfortunately, gold is primarily traded OTC, so actual turnover numbers are not available.


----------



## projack

bongcso said:


> Rhys,
> Like you I also want to own gold and silver without the hassle of having to deal with the physical commodity.
> 
> Christina




Probably until 3-4 years ago it was cheaper to buy physical PM, than paper-gold and paper-silver.  I bought thousands of kookaburra and kangaroo silver bullion coins on spot prices in the past. For the round silver 50 cents pieces I used to get about 30%, on pre decimal silver coins 50% discount vs. spot price. 
Today on eBay kookaburra, and kangaroo 1-ounce bullion coins sell around 2-4 times spot price, round silver 50 cents with 30% premium and junk pre decimal silver coins with 20% premium.
Just wonder how is this showing up on Sinners charts.
Anyway good luck with all your paper-gold and paper-silver.

http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFMonetaryVersusNonmonetaryCommodites.pdf


----------



## Ageo

Bron Suchecki said:


> Ageo,
> 
> 3 day turnaround on scrap, very good. When I said physical less liquid than shares, I was talking about large quantities as you may have to ship them to a dealer. If you have a few ounces all you have to do is get to your coin/bullion dealer and you'll get cash over the counter, so in that case, more liquid than shares.
> 
> To me, liquidity is also not so much about time to settle, but the ability to execute without affecting the price, ie depth of market as well. In this respect gold is very liquid. There would be plenty of examples of shares where if you tried to sell $1m you would move the price down significantly.
> 
> Jikx, is $22.4 billion a day in net clearing in just one (but major) market liquid enough? Unfortunately, gold is primarily traded OTC, so actual turnover numbers are not available.




Bron, with all my customers i settle in cash on the spot, so people with scrap dont have to wait for refining etc.... i also lock in prices to hedge myself against price swings which means if you had 100kg of gold scrap (which is alot in value) and you were happy with the price i quoted you, then you could lock that in and thats the amount you would receive (even if the market tanked). Alot of people dont understand physical as such and try to relate it with paper etc....

P.S when i talk about physical i actually talk about scrap as the average person has some form of gold jewellery laying around but only a minority have pure bullion/coins.


----------



## lsj84

After listening to Dr Marc Faber and Jim Rogers I'm quite scared by what might be coming. 

I'd like to buy some plaine tradable physical silver to protect myself. 

But I'm aware that 1oz of 09 koala silver coin by perthmint is sold for 38 AUD, about 20 dollars higher than the Kitco quote. I understand physical metals are priced higher than paper metals. but is it really by this big margin? 

Does this mean that at the moment I can only purhcase silver at such high price in Aussie term?

who are your preferred dealers where you guys purhcase precious metals?


----------



## Trembling Hand

lsj84 said:


> who are your preferred dealers where you guys purhcase precious metals?




NYMEX                                                                   :


----------



## moXJO

lsj84 said:


> After listening to Dr Marc Faber and Jim Rogers I'm quite scared by what might be coming.
> 
> I'd like to buy some plaine tradable physical silver to protect myself.
> 
> But I'm aware that 1oz of 09 koala silver coin by perthmint is sold for 38 AUD, about 20 dollars higher than the Kitco quote. I understand physical metals are priced higher than paper metals. but is it really by this big margin?
> 
> Does this mean that at the moment I can only purhcase silver at such high price in Aussie term?
> 
> who are your preferred dealers where you guys purhcase precious metals?




Do a search it will bring up the others if I missed any. Watch out they don't try and quote too high above the spot.

http://www.ainsliebullion.com.au/easyweb3/IDf0874666310bd7/?MIval=ew_view&WEBID=78594&ep_code=e004p01_stdEshop

http://www.goldbullionaustralia.com.au/index.html

http://www.ausbullion.com.au/bullion.html

Really need all the metal dealers in a sticky


----------



## Ageo

I bought 10kgs of silver bullion last week for 35c per gram ($350 per kilo).

Unfortunately i sold it already but if you ask around (especially pawn brokers) you will come across some at very good prices (below market anyway).


----------



## alphaman

I've never dealed with pawn brokers before. Why do they sell silver below market prices?


----------



## Temjin

Ageo said:


> I bought 10kgs of silver bullion last week for 35c per gram ($350 per kilo).
> 
> Unfortunately i sold it already but if you ask around (especially pawn brokers) you will come across some at very good prices (below market anyway).




I know some pawn brokers do have arbitage opportunities in such things and have seen them myself (at a much lower volume), but seriously, 10kg for only $350 per kg??? wow! Whoever pawn broker sold it to you must have been living under a ROCK! Or have no access to the internet for a quick google search to look at the current spot price before selling the bullions to you. (Or don't even know what google is!)


----------



## GumbyLearner

This seems pretty "out-there"  and charging 30% above spot.
I wonder if this would catch-on in other parts of the world.

*German firm plans 'Gold-to-Go' ATMs to sell tiny, pricey gold bars
*
A German asset management company plans to set up 500 "Gold-to-Go" ATMs in Germany, Switzerland and Austria this year. 

http://www.financialpost.com/personal-finance/story.html?id=1610606


----------



## Uncle Festivus

Buy yourself 10k of HEG shares then go here to buy direct online - 

http://www.hillendgold.com.au/index...ategory_id=6&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=194

Sweet spot with $AU where it is now around $1200?


----------



## Ageo

Temjin said:


> I know some pawn brokers do have arbitage opportunities in such things and have seen them myself (at a much lower volume), but seriously, 10kg for only $350 per kg??? wow! Whoever pawn broker sold it to you must have been living under a ROCK! Or have no access to the internet for a quick google search to look at the current spot price before selling the bullions to you. (Or don't even know what google is!)




Temjin, it actually was a customer of his, you see like me we have the margins made before we go into the deal. I.E for a fast transaction i offered him 35c per gram and in turn he perhaps offered his customer whatever below that and if the customer is desperate enough he will sell. The problem with selling at bullion houses in the city etc.. is that hardly any will give you top prices on the spot. Normally they need to assay it (takes time and a cost) and people are impatient.

The guy that advertises to buy gold in Sydney @ piccadilly square offers people around $17 per gram for 18ct and he's flat chat. Basically in a technical term its called buying distressed assets.


----------



## Temjin

Ageo said:


> Temjin, it actually was a customer of his, you see like me we have the margins made before we go into the deal. I.E for a fast transaction i offered him 35c per gram and in turn he perhaps offered his customer whatever below that and if the customer is desperate enough he will sell. The problem with selling at bullion houses in the city etc.. is that hardly any will give you top prices on the spot. Normally they need to assay it (takes time and a cost) and people are impatient.
> 
> The guy that advertises to buy gold in Sydney @ piccadilly square offers people around $17 per gram for 18ct and he's flat chat. Basically in a technical term its called buying distressed assets.




Ahh, my mistake. I thought he got it through a pawn broker! If it was a distressed sell from one of his customer, then that's perfectly understandable. 

As for selling to bullion houses, yeah, unless the bullion itself was already assayed by another refiner. 

Certainly one good way of accumulating precious metals at way below spot price.


----------



## Ageo

Temjin said:


> Ahh, my mistake. I thought he got it through a pawn broker! If it was a distressed sell from one of his customer, then that's perfectly understandable.
> 
> As for selling to bullion houses, yeah, unless the bullion itself was already assayed by another refiner.
> 
> Certainly one good way of accumulating precious metals at way below spot price.




Temjin you will find that alot of bullion houses wont accept cash on the spot deals even with an assay certificate from another refiner as that could have be switched from another batch of bullion.

Anyone that buys stock untested is open for disaster (unless they buy extremely under the spot to hedge themselves).


----------



## netfleet

I spoke to a gold dealer in Sydney just now.  He suggested the best thing to do is buy coins (Kangaroo) at $1,295 a pop & stick them in a bank vault (costing around $150/year).

He suggested that althought it's a bit more exe than a certificate, your sell price is likely to be better (as it's negotiable)

Does this make sense for a 12-24mth investment?  Thanks!


----------



## Ageo

netfleet said:


> I spoke to a gold dealer in Sydney just now.  He suggested the best thing to do is buy coins (Kangaroo) at $1,295 a pop & stick them in a bank vault (costing around $150/year).
> 
> He suggested that althought it's a bit more exe than a certificate, your sell price is likely to be better (as it's negotiable)
> 
> Does this make sense for a 12-24mth investment?  Thanks!




Hmm which dealer is this if you dont mind revealing as that advice is just plain  dumb. If you want kangaroo coins and your happy to buy at even $1280 let me know and ill get you as many as you want.

As for making sense, sorry it doesnt your paying too high a premium


----------



## netfleet

Ageo said:


> Hmm which dealer is this if you dont mind revealing as that advice is just plain  dumb. If you want kangaroo coins and your happy to buy at even $1280 let me know and ill get you as many as you want.
> 
> As for making sense, sorry it doesnt your paying too high a premium




Thanks very much for the feedback.

Can I ask is the advice/strategy actually dumb or is it just the premium he's trying to charge?  If it's the latter, do you know where you can buy cheaper kangaroo coins and what's the minimum one can pay?

I'll let you know the dealer by PM if you like?

Thanks again


----------



## Temjin

Ageo said:


> Temjin you will find that alot of bullion houses wont accept cash on the spot deals even with an assay certificate from another refiner as that could have be switched from another batch of bullion.
> 
> Anyone that buys stock untested is open for disaster (unless they buy extremely under the spot to hedge themselves).




Hmm..so are you saying if I buy from, let say www.ausbullion.com.au and try to sell it to another dealer like www.ainsliebullion.com.au who accepts other brand bullion, they wouldn't give cash on the spot regardless?

By the way, what is the typical cost of getting the metals assayed? Let say if I managed to locate "heavily under the spot" silver from various objects, and requested the refiner to melt them and assay them, how much would I be looking at?

I know I could easily ask the refiner for this, but I guess I could get a rough answer here while replying to this post.  thanks


----------



## Ageo

netfleet said:


> Thanks very much for the feedback.
> 
> Can I ask is the advice/strategy actually dumb or is it just the premium he's trying to charge?  If it's the latter, do you know where you can buy cheaper kangaroo coins and what's the minimum one can pay?
> 
> I'll let you know the dealer by PM if you like?
> 
> Thanks again




I never question anyones strategy (even if they are dumb as i cant predict market direction) but the premium is just way too high. The most you should be paying is no more than $50 above the spot especially now as the volatility has eased and spreads (premiums) are lesser. P.S i actually think coins are all wank as gold is gold and the cheaper you can buy it the better.



Temjin said:


> Hmm..so are you saying if I buy from, let say www.ausbullion.com.au and try to sell it to another dealer like www.ainsliebullion.com.au who accepts other brand bullion, they wouldn't give cash on the spot regardless?
> 
> By the way, what is the typical cost of getting the metals assayed? Let say if I managed to locate "heavily under the spot" silver from various objects, and requested the refiner to melt them and assay them, how much would I be looking at?
> 
> I know I could easily ask the refiner for this, but I guess I could get a rough answer here while replying to this post.  thanks




Well lets say your a refiner and some guy walks in off the street and hands you some bullion from another bullion company with a certificate, are you prepared to buy it on the spot without testing to ensure its purity? your taking a risk like that? so most refiners send it to get assayed and charge a fee (they need to make money everywhere they go). If they know you or feel comfortable that the bullion is what its suppose to be you might be lucky to get cash on the spot but they most likely will offer you less (again on to hedge themselves if the gold shows up a little less pure).

As for assays and refining fees it all depends, assay sometimes can fetch from $70-$200 and have a 5 day turnaround. Refining goes on per kilo plus they take a retention (loss) out of that, but the problem with most refiners is once they refine the gold and for whatever reason you think their lying you cannot get your original stock back.

I deal with refiners all the time and the things they try and get upto is scary.

hope this helps


----------



## refined silver

I've said this from the beginning but any buyers of ETFs rather than the metals themselves may end up sorely disappointed. 

When AIG first went into the hole, an unreported story was that many ETFs plunged in value way below the value of the supposed metal they had as it was felt that since AIG was the "custodian", there was a high chance of a default. 

They don't have the metal they claim.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/141227-will-a-silver-bullet-finally-kill-the-metal-manipulators


----------



## weatherbill

Isn't there a tax on the sale of gold coins in AU?


----------



## Ageo

weatherbill said:


> Isn't there a tax on the sale of gold coins in AU?




Depends, if you wish to pay tax then yep your right.


----------



## Grandpop

poguemahone said:


> Perth Mint do certificates Unallocated.. Great for the punter with no closet space.




I recently purchased some unallocated gold via the Perth Mint Certificate Program (just $5K's worth to start). Its a bit of a drama setting up the account, but now I can buy gold whenever I want at a reasonable price. You ask them to quote a price and they will honour that quote for 2 days, in which time you transfer the funds. I'm fairly sure trades are exempt from capital gains tax, somebody else may be able to confirm this.


----------



## Temjin

Ageo said:


> Well lets say your a refiner and some guy walks in off the street and hands you some bullion from another bullion company with a certificate, are you prepared to buy it on the spot without testing to ensure its purity? your taking a risk like that? so most refiners send it to get assayed and charge a fee (they need to make money everywhere they go). If they know you or feel comfortable that the bullion is what its suppose to be you might be lucky to get cash on the spot but they most likely will offer you less (again on to hedge themselves if the gold shows up a little less pure).
> 
> As for assays and refining fees it all depends, assay sometimes can fetch from $70-$200 and have a 5 day turnaround. Refining goes on per kilo plus they take a retention (loss) out of that, but the problem with most refiners is once they refine the gold and for whatever reason you think their lying you cannot get your original stock back.
> 
> I deal with refiners all the time and the things they try and get upto is scary.
> 
> hope this helps




Oops, should have replied to your post.

So even some of the more reputable bullion dealers (like ausbullion, etc) and their own certificate / brand stamp on the actual bullion, will NOT BE ACCEPTED by any refiners. Or I guess this is only a confidence issue?

I certainly know other bullion dealers would more than happy to buy bullions from other brands (subjected to conditions of course) at the same spread as if they were buying back their own brand. 

So I would be very surprised if the refiners are far more paranoid and wouldn't accept ANY of the bullions from those dealers and must demand a costly assay. This is despite these very same dealers would buyback each other bullions without additional cost. 



			
				refined silver said:
			
		

> I've said this from the beginning but any buyers of ETFs rather than the metals themselves may end up sorely disappointed.
> 
> When AIG first went into the hole, an unreported story was that many ETFs plunged in value way below the value of the supposed metal they had as it was felt that since AIG was the "custodian", there was a high chance of a default.




Yeah, the news was widely reported too because I was one of the affected ones. However, those ETFs (subject to credit risk) did indeed plunged in value to ZERO (because there were no markets for it) but only temporary. AIG was bailed out in the end and their securities was marketable again in full value. Of course, I sold them immediately and only stick with their physical backed ETFs.


----------



## Ageo

Temjin said:


> Oops, should have replied to your post.
> 
> So even some of the more reputable bullion dealers (like ausbullion, etc) and their own certificate / brand stamp on the actual bullion, will NOT BE ACCEPTED by any refiners. Or I guess this is only a confidence issue?
> 
> I certainly know other bullion dealers would more than happy to buy bullions from other brands (subjected to conditions of course) at the same spread as if they were buying back their own brand.
> 
> So I would be very surprised if the refiners are far more paranoid and wouldn't accept ANY of the bullions from those dealers and must demand a costly assay. This is despite these very same dealers would buyback each other bullions without additional cost.




Temjin doesnt matter where the bar comes from it needs to be tested to ensure its gold. 

Ill give you an example, i  had a customer who gave me some ABC identical bars, but when i tested them it came in at around 94% which is 6% less than the expected pure 24ct. You see any jeweller with the right equipment can make anything you want and that includes bogus bullion. Hallmarking used to be genuine when determining the karatage but today its useless. 

If they purchase bullion off you on the spot without testing it then i would consider yourself lucky.


----------



## Smurf1976

Ignoring the merits or otherwise of such an investment, how do I go about investing in the silver ETF?

http://www.etfsecurities.com/au/document/downloads/ETFS_Product_List_au.pdf

It says that the ASX code for Gold is "GOLD" and that works fine for a quote, chart etc on Etrade.

But the "ETPMAG" code for silver doesn't seem to exist as far as Etrade is concerned, I can't get it to work. It wouldn't work for a quote on the ASX site either.

Have I missed / doing something wrong here?


----------



## Lord Dragon

lsj84 said:


> After listening to Dr Marc Faber and Jim Rogers I'm quite scared by what might be coming.
> 
> I'd like to buy some plaine tradable physical silver to protect myself.
> 
> But I'm aware that 1oz of 09 koala silver coin by perthmint is sold for 38 AUD, about 20 dollars higher than the Kitco quote. I understand physical metals are priced higher than paper metals. but is it really by this big margin?
> 
> Does this mean that at the moment I can only purhcase silver at such high price in Aussie term?
> 
> who are your preferred dealers where you guys purhcase precious metals?




You can get 1oz silver koalas/kookaburras/lunars from the mint for about $27. 
The $38 you see will be for the packaged coin. The bullion coins just come in a plastic case.
Coins always have a premium but you also get a premium when you sell them. If you want to buy bars you can get a 10oz bar from the perth mint for about $190 depending on the days silver prices.
These are the 2 ways I buy silver as I cant afford kilos in one go like others that can get closer to spot from overseas.


----------



## trading_rookie

Ageo, not sure I agree with your assessment that gold coins are a wank...but 18ct gold penis extenders, that's another story 

_Saudi pays stiff price for sex toy
August 6, 2009
A Saudi businessman has purchased what is being described by the Canadian seller as the world's most expensive adult novelty item - a solid 18-carat gold penis enlarger worth nearly $US50,000 ($59,240). _

My question is, would thorough sterilising and scrubbing down this ‘piece’ before assaying cause a loss in purity ? ;-)


----------



## WilliamKong

rhyslivs said:


> I had a search through some other threads but nothing was really clear cut.
> 
> I am interested in buying gold and silver, but predominately silver. Not necessarily physical gold and silver but more an ownership of some gold or silver somewhere that I can trade. The other thread mentioned futures contracts. Maybe this is what I am after.
> 
> Basically I want to buy and sell gold or silver but I dont want the stuff to rock up on my doorstep.
> 
> Lend me your knowledge kind gentlemen and women.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rhys




You can also buy or sell warrant contract on gold and silver. Warrant contract provides unlimited upside potential and limited downside risk.


----------



## johnnyg

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1-kilo-pure-...dZViewItemQQptZAU_Bullion?hash=item3356766257


----------



## Wysiwyg

johnnyg said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/1-kilo-pure-...dZViewItemQQptZAU_Bullion?hash=item3356766257



That equals AU$1421.430948626312957416168232729 per troy ounce.


----------



## johnnyg

Perth Mint are selling 1kg bars for $37,163.28 but I think I remember reading somewhere about a long wait?


----------



## Journeyman

johnnyg said:


> Perth Mint are selling 1kg bars for $37,163.28 but I think I remember reading somewhere about a long wait?




 Currently 1Kg Bar = $40,171.05


----------

