# The lunatic left



## wayneL (29 November 2016)

Cultural vandals.


----------



## luutzu (29 November 2016)

wayneL said:


> Cultural vandals.
> 
> View attachment 68956




What she said is quite true sifu.

Don't know about Justice since I haven't study Cuba and Castro's reign, but it's a miracle Cuba managed to survive as an independent country in the shadow of the American empire.

That and Castro surviving some 600 CIA assassination attempts dating back to JFK.

Not many country could survive US sanctions and continuous attempt to overthrow the gov't. For Cuba to provide medical care to its population on par with the US - and much cheaper - or have resources to send doctors to help Haiti and other S.American countries when disaster hit. Quite something.


----------



## Tink (30 November 2016)

You are making excuses for a militant atheist tyrant that put a bullet to peoples heads?

_It was Lenin who talked about “useful idiots” in the West who did all the dirty work for the Communists: they sang the praises of Marxism while tearing down the free West that they lived in. The Communists sat back and laughed as these clueless wonders did their spade work for them, knowing that once they got into power these folks would be the first to get a bullet in the head.
But they performed a useful service to the Communists as they denigrated the West and its freedoms and sought to defend to the hilt this bankrupt and diabolical system._

------------------------------------

_The Marxism–Leninist worldview promotes atheism as a fundamental tenet.[30][31] Marxist–Leninist atheism has its roots in the philosophy of Ludwig Feuerbach, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Marx, and Lenin.[32] Materialism, the philosophical standpoint that the universe exists independently of human consciousness, consisting of only atoms and physical forces, is central to the worldview of Marxism–Leninism in the form of dialectical materialism. Vitaly Ginzburg, a Soviet physicist, wrote that the "Bolshevik communists were not merely atheists, but, according to Lenin's terminology, militant atheists."[33] Therefore, many Marxist–Leninist states, historically and currently, are also atheist states.[34] Under these regimes, several religions and their adherents were targeted to be "stamped out"_


----------



## Tisme (30 November 2016)

Cuba was so comfortable with the trade agreements and commerce with the USSR and the other commo countries that it made sure the 20% margin on the export sugar versus purchase credits was in hard currency US Dollars.

Having said that, by most accounts the place was a basket case under the rule of Batista and the Havana Mob. 

And it did give us the famous Che Guevara poster.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2016)

Tink said:


> You are making excuses for a militant atheist tyrant that put a bullet to peoples heads?
> 
> _It was Lenin who talked about “useful idiots” in the West who did all the dirty work for the Communists: they sang the praises of Marxism while tearing down the free West that they lived in. The Communists sat back and laughed as these clueless wonders did their spade work for them, knowing that once they got into power these folks would be the first to get a bullet in the head.
> But they performed a useful service to the Communists as they denigrated the West and its freedoms and sought to defend to the hilt this bankrupt and diabolical system._
> ...





You might be wrong about where Lenin was pointing when referring to useful idiots there.

What use is it to Lenin and his commies to have foreigners criticising their own capitalist system? To show the Soviets how bad capitalism is?

That kind of benefit are negligible since, you know, those who live under commo rules all "believe" the evil of capitalism - evident by them all singing and crying at the glory of Marx.

So "useful idiots" are ones living and breathing inside the system, and are singing its praises. They intellectualise and propagandise to the masses how great and noble their own system is - my country, awesome in all that it does.

That's a useful idiot.

----

As to the trouble makers and ingrates who dare question their gov't and the dear leaders. What does it benefit them? Beside of course being spies and sell out to foreign powers. 

They might criticise and protest so that the gov't could correct its wrongs and benefit the people, their people.

Maybe you're right. That is another group of useful idiots. Those who kiss no ring, kiss no hinnies and want peace and justice and security for all their people. Crazy idiots.


----------



## Knobby22 (30 November 2016)

I don't believe anything like that any more. I am sure that Jill Stein would be sympathetic to Castro but I severely doubt that is her tweet. Doesn't look right. isn't presente like present arms?


----------



## McLovin (30 November 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> I don't believe anything like that any more. I am sure that Jill Stein would be sympathetic to Castro but I severely doubt that is her tweet. Doesn't look right. isn't presente like present arms?




She said it. i'm not really sure how that makes her a "cultural vandal". Whatever that is.

Is Cuba any worse off than it was under Batista? Not really. At least they got their country back. But who knows how history would have run. With the exception of Haiti, most of the Caribbean is relatively peaceful these days, and I certainly wouldn't want to claim that Castro was as good as it could get for Cuba.

And for the record, I'm not fan of Castro. He was a brutal dictator, but at least he didn't sell himself out to America and let it be turned into her brothel.

As JFK said...


> I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear.


----------



## Ves (30 November 2016)

McLovin said:


> Is Cuba any worse off than it was under Batista? Not really. At least they got their country back.
> 
> And for the record, I'm not fan of Castro. He was a brutal dictator, but at least he didn't sell himself out to America and let it be turned into her brothel.



Indeed,  Castro was brutal, no arguing that.  But sadly pretty much any discussion regarding Cuba and his reign loses the context of what was going on in that part of the world and also what it was like before the revolution.

I mean,  holy hell,  go and have a look at what happened in Guatemala for instance,  and the role that covert operations by the US government played in that murderous civil war.

It's fairly hard to be confident that Cuba sans Castro would be more peaceful if the US government had got their wishes.

Also seems that no one even mentions Castro's influence on the end of the South African apartheid.


----------



## McLovin (30 November 2016)

Ves said:


> I mean,  holy hell,  go and have a look at what happened in Guatemala for instance,  and the role that covert operations by the US government played in that murderous civil war.




Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia. The list is endless. The US had a program of removing left/socialist leaders (whether democratically elected or not) and replacing them with right wing fascists.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2016)

McLovin said:


> Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia. The list is endless. The US had a program of removing left/socialist leaders (whether democratically elected or not) and replacing them with right wing fascists.




Not so endless if you count by continent. It'd be like 6 count or so.


----------



## qldfrog (30 November 2016)

Ves said:


> Indeed,  Castro was brutal, no arguing that.  But sadly pretty much any discussion regarding Cuba and his reign loses the context of what was going on in that part of the world and also what it was like before the revolution.
> 
> I mean,  holy hell,  go and have a look at what happened in Guatemala for instance,  and the role that covert operations by the US government played in that murderous civil war.
> 
> ...



Or the fact Cubans are and have been educated/nourished/healed for the last half century, whereas in Haiti, they benefited of the US friendship? Castro was a great leader for his time and had the US been a bit wiser, both side would have benefited: better rum and cigars for the NY elite, and better cars for cubans


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2016)

McLovin said:


> Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia. The list is endless. The US had a program of removing left/socialist leaders (whether democratically elected or not) and replacing them with right wing fascists.





War on Democracy


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Or the fact Cubans are and have been educated/nourished/healed for the last half century, whereas in Haiti, they benefited of the US friendship? Castro was a great leader for his time and had the US been a bit wiser, both side would have benefited: better rum and cigars for the NY elite, and better cars for cubans




As an imperial power, the US cannot permit its former colony to simply be self-sufficient and independent. That would set bad examples others might follow.


----------



## noco (3 December 2016)

Can't work out why this thread concentrates on Castro and Cuba when we have so many lunatic lefties here in Australia.

One cannot go past the Green/Labor coalition left wing socialistic indoctrinated Fabians, the CFMEU and the biased ABC to understand what a lunatic left represents.

One example of left lunacy is the shutting down of coal fired power stations in Victoria and South Australia often leaving people and businesses in the dark....They will soon have to be back to burning wood fires for cooking and candles to see what they are cooking...The Sun don't shine at night and the wind does not always blow.



And you don't have to go  past the lunatic left in the senate with their behavior in  blocking ways to improve our economy in the National interest of course......To the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition it is a political game and they don't care how people get hurt....They don't care about the working people...They don't care how much extra they allow their CFMEU bosses to increase building cost to young couples wanting to buy an affordable house...They don't care if the cost is another 30%. ...Shorten did not care about the workers of Clean Event and Chiquita or the bringing in workers on 457 visas to work for McDonalds.

The lunatic left under Gillard (the true Fabian Communist, self confessed)  allowed in 50,000 illegal immigrants of whom some 90% are still receiving welfare because they are unskilled and illiterate. 

So why go to Cuba when we have it all here?


----------



## explod (3 December 2016)

The Greens and ALP could not be more different if you tried.  How you can lump Greens with the corrupt system of deals in deals for their mate's ie themselves in Labour is beyond me noco.

On top of that the ALP detest the Greens and in most cases put the Greens last on handouts.


----------



## noco (3 December 2016)

explod said:


> The Greens and ALP could not be more different if you tried.  How you can lump Greens with the corrupt system of deals in deals for their mate's ie themselves in Labour is beyond me noco.
> 
> On top of that the ALP detest the Greens and in most cases put the Greens last on handouts.




I don't see much difference between to two.....They are both socialists parties......Gillard and Brown signed a coalition agreement......Shorten is quite happy to accept the Green's preference votes at an election..

Both the Green and Labor are happy to accept large donations from the corrupt CFMEU.

Both parties want to blow up coal fired power stations and close the coal mines.

Both parties want central control of the media, banks, mining, manufacturing (what is left of it thanks to the unions) and agriculture.

Both the Greens and half the Labor Party want to open the floods gates again and allow boat smugglers to bring in illegal immigrants.

Both parties are hell bent on destroying our economy.....Both parties are anti Capitalist......Both parties are against free enterprise and both parties believe profit is a dirty word.....

Both parties want this "SAFE SCHOOL PROGRAM" under the hidden agenda of bullying when in actual fact it is a scheme to break down the morals of kids as young as 5 years old.

Both parties will promote lies and propaganda to fulfill their socialistic ambitions.

Both the Greens and Labor want to raise taxes that will hurt the average working families.

Both parties will bring back a Carbon Dioxide tax if they ever get into government again and will not worry how it will increase the cost of living. 

So I don't really see any difference between the two.


----------



## noco (3 December 2016)

How long will the Guardian last with massive losses as explained by the Australian newspaper.....Not too many are interested in their lies an propaganda. 

Guardian appoints new editor to loss-making Australian site

The Australian
4:41PM May 20, 2016

Darren Davidson

Media Editor

Sydney

@darrendavidson



The Guardian’s loss-making Australian website has appointed a new editor, a week after staff succeeded in stopping former editor-in-chief Alan Rusbridger returning to the paper.

Publisher Guardian News & Media (GNM) has named Lenore Taylor as editor of Guardian Australia.

GNM said Emily Wilson will return to the London office to become assistant editor after two-years at the helm.

Katharine Viner, editor-in-chief of Guardian News & Media, described Taylor as the “ideal person to take Guardian Australia to the next stage of its development”.

Taylor has won two Walkley awards, and co-authored ****storm, a book on the Rudd government’s response to the global economic crisis. She is a former Fairfax Media journalist, and previously worked at The Australian.

It comes after Rusbridger said he will not return to the newspaper as chairman of Scott Trust, which owns publisher GMN, amid losses and 250 job cuts.

Operating losses at the group amounted to £58.6 million ($AUD118 million) in the year to the end of March on the back of a costly international expansion and a flawed “open journalism” model.

A recent analysis carried out by The Australian estimated that Guardian Australia had revenue-per-user of just $2.06 in 2015 as a free online model hurts the publisher.

Last week, the Scott Trust met to discuss whether Rusbridger would take over as chair as agreed two years ago.

But the Trust was in limbo about the arrangement, with Rusbridger’s successor Viner, launch editor of Guardian Australia, and GMG chief executive David Pemsel lobbying hard against Rusbridger as they try to reduce the paper’s losses.

A meeting of the Trust ended on Thursday evening without agreement on the future of Rusbridger, who emailed staff the following day to let them know he would not be taking up the position.

“Kath and David clearly believe they would like to plot a route into the future with a new chair and I understand their reasoning,” Rusbridger wrote.

He was due to become chair of the Trust in September. His appointment was agreed in late 2014, at the same time that he announced that he would step down as editor-in-chief.

Senior journalists at the newspaper voiced concerns about the prospect of Rusbridger occupying the powerful position amid bitterness over the way in which he ran the title.

Documents obtained by The Australian in December revealed fiscal losses at Guardian Australia blew out to $14m in the 12 months ended June 30 ”” up from $6m in the prior period.


----------



## noco (3 December 2016)

Victoria about to be hit with massive increases in power due to the closure the Hazalwood power station.

Well done Mr.Andrews ....I am sure that will make you very popular at the ballot box.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...s/news-story/9a174cddd8fbd429f5d653d011b78384


*VICTORIAN households face a combined electricity and gas bill blowout of up to $310 next year as retailers raise prices.

The looming closure of the Hazelwood power plant is being blamed for electricity cost spikes in January, while gas price rises are also far outstripping inflation.

Vinnies energy expert Gavin Dufty said some households using electricity and gas would cop an annual increase of up to $310, depending on their retailer and location.

All-electric customers without solar power would be stung as much as $210 a year more.

“This will impact people when kids are going back to school and after the post-Christmas credit squeeze,” Mr Dufty said.

“Shop around after January when the prices change, and make sure you are getting a concession if you are entitled.”




.
The huge hit comes in the same week the Essential Services Commission revealed 70,000 people are now in *energy retailer hardship *programs — an increase of 30 per cent on last year — and 61,000 households were disconnected last year.

Average price rises for default residential electricity tariffs, known as standing offers, will range from 6.5 to 11.5 per cent in January. While most customers are on discounted offers, many will face similar price increases.

Opposition energy spokesman David Southwick said Premier Daniel Andrews had underplayed the impact of *Hazelwood’s closure on electricity prices.

HAZELWOOD POWER STATION CLOSURE A DEVASTATING BLOW 

HAZELWOOD POWER STATION CLOSURE WILL SEND VICTORIAN POWER BILLS SOARING*


----------



## explod (3 December 2016)

Jeez noco, a lot of water under the bridge since Gillard and Brown.  And Gillard was honest with good upbringing from her Dad, a hard working battler.

Yes Greens are socialists leaning to the moderate centre, the ALP a  mix of commo's and fascists to the right and this bad mix is bringing them undone in my view.  Very different to each other and cannot be offhandedly lumped together.

Yes power going up initially, things do not alter easily when driven by big business wanting all the cake and the guvmint wallowing to them

A growing number of households with solar are paying almost zero and as I posted up yesterdays some whole countries are doing it with solar and good back up storage.  Time to move forward ole Pal.


----------



## noco (3 December 2016)

explod said:


> Jeez noco, a lot of water under the bridge since Gillard and Brown.  And Gillard was honest with good upbringing from her Dad, a hard working battler.
> 
> Yes Greens are socialists leaning to the moderate centre, the ALP a  mix of commo's and fascists to the right and this bad mix is bringing them undone in my view.  Very different to each other and cannot be offhandedly lumped together.
> 
> ...




And the Greens popularity is going down,down,down....Just look at the recent polls if you don't believe me.

The Greens are socialist leaning towards to the moderate centre?????????????You could have fooled me...Why are they know as the 'WATERMELON PARTY"?...Green outside and red inside.....


----------



## luutzu (3 December 2016)

noco said:


> And the Greens popularity is going down,down,down....Just look at the recent polls if you don't believe me.
> 
> The Greens are socialist leaning towards to the moderate centre?????????????You could have fooled me...Why are they know as the 'WATERMELON PARTY"?...Green outside and red inside.....




You've been around and witnessed it first hand... How was Australia for the average Aussie before all these "socialist" programmes? 

Child labour? Work safety; fair wages and conditions; social safety nets looking after widows and orphans of the dead battlers... healthcare; tax-payer funded immunisation; universal public education.

All were peachy? The Capitalists and business operators know how to deal fairly with their workers?


----------



## explod (3 December 2016)

noco said:


> And the Greens popularity is going down,down,down....Just look at the recent polls if you don't believe me.
> 
> The Greens are socialist leaning towards to the moderate centre?????????????You could have fooled me...Why are they know as the 'WATERMELON PARTY"?...Green outside and red inside.....




You don't actually know noco, you are not informed first hand but by the biased right press.

Yes have a lot of names (only sticks and stones do it though) selected to try and discredit.  Recent council election across Victoria saw huge gains to the Greens.  The Hanson factor has been having some effect but will soon wear off.

Do you have any figures to back up your claim.  Green's are getting increasingly serious attention in national newscasts, doing well in Parliament too and many seeing them as good moderators too.  You a bit isolated up there 'in ole joe's land"


----------



## pixel (3 December 2016)

noco said:


> The Greens are socialist leaning towards to the moderate centre?????????????You could have fooled me..*.Why are they know as the 'WATERMELON PARTY"?.*..Green outside and red inside.....




The more pertinent question would be "*By whom are they called the 'WATERMELON PARTY"?*.
Simple answer: It's an invention by the extreme Right brigade that pretends to uphold compassion and Christian attitudes, but can't stand people that actually want to apply those principles.

Truth is, there are sensible and not so sensible tendencies on both sides of the Centre. (Even the avowed middle can stuff up at times.) By no means do I agree with every Green opinion. Every time I hear that fluff-brain Sarah H-Y whining and demanding yet another unfunded impracticability, my hair stands on edge. But her namesake Pauline H (no-Y) has the same effect when she invents statistics to back up her alternate histories. There's nuts on both sides.

A wise old Statesman once described politics as "the Art of what's Possible." Sadly, our current crop of wannabes has lost the plot. They sit in their self-constructed ivory towers, full of self-importance and perceived omniscience, unable and unwilling to think outside their own tiny cells.


----------



## noco (3 December 2016)

explod said:


> You don't actually know noco, you are not informed first hand but by the biased right press.
> 
> Yes have a lot of names (only sticks and stones do it though) selected to try and discredit.  Recent council election across Victoria saw huge gains to the Greens.  The Hanson factor has been having some effect but will soon wear off.
> 
> Do you have any figures to back up your claim.  Green's are getting increasingly serious attention in national newscasts, doing well in Parliament too and many seeing them as good moderators too.  You a bit isolated up there 'in ole joe's land"




Sure do Plod.

As post #1286 "The Turnbull Government"...Obviously you did not take the time to read.

http://www.essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport

Q. If a Federal Election was held today to which party will you probably give your first preference vote? If not sure, which party are you currently leaning toward? If don’t know – Well which party are you currently leaning to?
  	Total 	  	Last week

22/11/16
	2 weeks ago

15/11/16
	4 weeks ago

1/11/16
	  	Election 2 Jul 16
Liberal 	36% 	  	36% 	34% 	36% 	  	 
National 	3% 	  	3% 	3% 	2% 	  	 
Total Liberal/National 	39% 	  	38% 	37% 	38% 	  	42.0%
Labor 	36% 	  	37% 	37% 	37% 	  	34.7%
*Greens 	9% 	  	10% 	11% 	10% 	  	10.2%*
Nick Xenophon Team 	3% 	  	3% 	3% 	2% 	  	 
Pauline Hanson’s One Nation 	7% 	  	6% 	6% 	6% 	  	 
Other/Independent 	6% 	  	6% 	6% 	7% 	  	13.1%
2 party preferred 	  	  	  	  	  	  	 
Liberal National 	49% 	  	48% 	47% 	48% 	  	50.4%
Labor 	51% 	  	52% 	53% 	52% 	  	49.6%


----------



## wayneL (3 December 2016)

Greens are known as watermelons by all who are aware of their policies ancillary to their environmental policies and how they are interdependent with each other.

Their basic economic and social platform,  is quite obviously socialism.

Ergo, the tag is apt and fair,  as valid as calling conservative elements within the Liberals, tories.


----------



## noco (4 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> You've been around and witnessed it first hand... How was Australia for the average Aussie before all these "socialist" programmes?
> 
> Child labour? Work safety; fair wages and conditions; social safety nets looking after widows and orphans of the dead battlers... healthcare; tax-payer funded immunisation; universal public education.
> 
> All were peachy? The Capitalists and business operators know how to deal fairly with their workers?




Thanks Luu.

In the 30's and 40's, I did not know of one mother who went to work outside the house.....They all had 2 and 3 kids and did all the house hold chores while the man of the house went to work.....We lived in a Queenslander, high set with a wooden stove, no air conditioners and no ceiling fans....Mother scrubbed the floors by hand...no carpets...all lino....Ironing was a Mother Pot's iron preheated on the wood stove.....One iron on while one was being used.

I was the youngest sibling....I chopped the wood and lit the fire under the copper on Saturday morning to boil the clothes....The clothes were drained and left to cool for hand wringing, rinsing and then through the blue rinse.

None of the mothers drove a car....we kids walked to school and walk home again some 3 miles.....Down to the corner store and the butcher shop on Saturday with my billy cart to collect the weeks groceries and a free bag of boiled lollies from the grocer......No refrigerators....we had an ice chest and a fly proof hanger under the house.

Their was no Medicare or Health Care....The family always put aside money for medical emergencies.....The family doctor called to the house.....In most cases mothers all had their home remedies for coughs,colds and whopping cough......No antibiotics...... 

There was no TV until 1959 so radio was the only connection for news on the outside world.....At election time a politician stood on a soap box on the street corner to get his message through.....Red tape and Green tape was unknown in those days......Politician were little different than they are today except there was no media to emphasis the good from the bad.....The Labor Party was a true Labor Party who did show interest in the workers until communism started to creep in with Dr Evatt and Arther Caldwell who tried to convert the Labor Party into socialism....Bob Menzies set up a referendum to ban communism but failed on the grounds that the left promoted their propaganda that Menzies could also ban religion.

The unions were always causing problems and even had a wharfies strike during the war to prevent urgent  arms and food supplies being shipped to PNG to fight the Japanese.....The unions became very militant in the late 50's and early 60's and strikes were  a regular activity which we all cursed....This was all part of Labor tactics even in those days to create economic strife when the Liberal Party were in power.

There was no child labour and most kids did not start work until at least 15 or 16......Shops were open from 8am until 5 pm week days and 8 to 12 on Saturdays.

There was no immunization programs......War widows and TPI ex service men and women were well catered for....Most ADF people returning from the war received free trade training and were know as expats......If you were lucky enough to go to university in the 30's and 40's, your parents were regarded a wealthy...I wanted to study medicine but due to family commitments I had to settle for the plumbing trade....My first pay was one pound one shilling and nine pence ($2.19) for the week...Ten shillings went into board....3 shillings was spent on tram fares for the week which left me 89 cents pocket money for the week....Primary and secondary education was free. 

There was no dole if you had no work.....All families helped each other to survive.....You were entitled to an age pension upon reaching the age of 65.......Not many  survived after the age of 70 so it was not a heavy drain on the welfare system.

We did have work safety rules after WW11 but nothing like today......Th state Government would turn up on building sites unannounced..They would check out ladders and if there was a split in the timber, the inspector would put his saw through it in a couple of places for no further use......Ropes were often used on Bosun's chairs, platforms and for rigging....If there was a fray in the rope the knife was brought into play and quickly deposed of.

I built my first house in 1953 for the equivalent of $4480 on 1/3 deposit.....No painting inside....no kitchen cupboards.....no furniture...no floor coverings......no refrigerator...no electric hot water and a thunder box in the middle of the back yard.

Who said it was the good old days?


----------



## explod (4 December 2016)

Gee you were skun Noco, I brought my first house at Longreach in 1967 for $2000, veranda all round and opposite the State School.  Through the back yard a couple of blocks from the pub. But the diesel generators a block away were noisy some nights.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 December 2016)

noco said:


> Thanks Luu.
> 
> In the 30's and 40's, I did not know of one mother who went to work outside the house.....They all had 2 and 3 kids and did all the house hold chores while the man of the house went to work.....We lived in a Queenslander, high set with a wooden stove, no air conditioners and no ceiling fans....Mother scrubbed the floors by hand...no carpets...all lino....Ironing was a Mother Pot's iron preheated on the wood stove.....One iron on while one was being used.
> 
> ...





Tell that to young people these days and they'd never believe you.


----------



## pixel (4 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Tell that to young people these days and they'd never believe you.




At a wedding party recently, a young kid who'd just started Computer Science at Uni, asked me "When you were young, were you good at Computing?" He didn't even understand that my generation built the first manframes, machines that filled entire office floors and their 256 Kilobytes of memory were considered massive. 
So, all I answered was, No, when I was in High School, we didn't have computers, laptops, or smartphones, but we were taught History - and I was pretty good at that. (also times tables and languages, but no use mentioning that to today's kids.)

Noco, I don't remember the 30's, but even in the late '40s and early '50s, our life was pretty close to the way you describe yours. We did have electric power and running *cold!* water from our own bore. (Granddad had "the gift" to divine water, which is still flowing and irrigates the garden.)
Would I want to go back to "them olden days"? Hell, No! While I do keep money on the side for emergencies and save before I buy or make do without, I truly appreciate the advances that social-minded parties have introduced since then. It's true, some of that has since gone too far and led to ever-increasing expectations by people who confuse provision of the most basic needs with their wants. But the kind of middle-class welfare that resulted from governments pandering to greed and laziness for their votes is as much a fault of Conservatives (aka the lunatic Right) as it can be blamed on Unions, Labor, and Greens.


----------



## noco (4 December 2016)

explod said:


> Gee you were skun Noco, I brought my first house at Longreach in 1967 for $2000, veranda all round and opposite the State School.  Through the back yard a couple of blocks from the pub. But the diesel generators a block away were noisy some nights.




A couple grey-mads bought a home in Collinsville this year for $60,000, reason being many had left town and the demand for real estate had hit rock bottom....Probably the same thing happened in Longreach...Was it a two bedroom miners cottage 100 years old?


----------



## explod (4 December 2016)

noco said:


> A couple grey-mads bought a home in Collinsville this year for $60,000, reason being many had left town and the demand for real estate had hit rock bottom....Probably the same thing happened in Longreach...Was it a two bedroom miners cottage 100 years old?




It was fairly large with five bedrooms, three at the back which I dismantled.  It had been a convent and found a very nice crucifix in the soil underneath.

A mate I was working with put me onto it, belonged to another shearer who had cancer (no family) and just needed the money for his last days in hospital.   But yes, the drought was starting to bite also and three years later was happy to take $1000 to clear my slate on joining the force.


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

Well known Marxist Brenddan O'Neill has spoken out that the left has gone too far and a worker uprising is in the making.


https://twitter.com/spikedonline?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author


----------



## Logique (16 December 2016)

The double-edged sword of justice.



> *Labor frontbencher Terri Butler settles defamation suit with student over 'racist smear'*
> 16 Dec 2016 - SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...tudent-over-racist-smear-20161216-gtchae.html
> 
> Labor frontbencher Terri Butler has settled a defamation lawsuit with Queensland law student Calum Thwaites over what some described as her "racist smear" on national television.
> ...


----------



## noco (17 December 2016)

Daniel's Gestapo will come into to play in Victoria very soon.

He wants an audit on all MPs mobile phones.....If Mike Baird did that in NSW there would be riots in the streets.

\https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/33592098/privacy-concerns-over-vic-phone-leak-probe/#page1
*
Victoria's privacy watchdog is to investigate whether Premier Daniel Andrews reported decision to audit MP's mobile phones over leaks to the media breaches privacy laws.

The Herald Sun says Mr Andrews told a cabinet meeting on Monday auditors KPMG would look at MP's devices to find out who gave 3AW broadcaster Neil Mitchell details about police numbers.*

KPMG...Is that the KREMLIN PHONE MARXIST GRENADIERS?


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2016)

noco said:


> Daniel's Gestapo will come into to play in Victoria very soon.
> 
> He wants an audit on all MPs mobile phones.....If Mike Baird did that in NSW there would be riots in the streets.
> 
> ...




Godwin Grech in the mix?  Godwin's accomplices, Eric Abetz and Malcolm Turnbull?


But, and that's a big but, because it probably isn't truth reporting,  Andrews wouldn't be the first to use his power to witchhunt...Queensland had decades of it with Joh. The latest  would be autocratic LNP Premier Campbell Newman:

http://www.thetunnelpresents.com/campbell-newman-witch-hunting/


----------



## noco (18 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Godwin Grech in the mix?  Godwin's accomplices, Eric Abetz and Malcolm Turnbull?
> 
> 
> But, and that's a big but, because it probably isn't truth reporting,  Andrews wouldn't be the first to use his power to witchhunt...Queensland had decades of it with Joh. The latest  would be autocratic LNP Premier Campbell Newman:
> ...




Firstly, I think Rudd was cunning enough to cover his dirty tracks in the Greach case and both Greach and Turnbull came off second best....Greach knew the real truth but the evidence had been destroyed and he had no back up.

I believe the WITCH HUNT you mention is a bit of a fairy tale story about the fable of real witches and nothing really to do with Campbell Newman doing a witch hunt on MPs I-Phones and I-Pads

You quoted witch hunting in the Joh era, can you explain in detail with some link or back up to your statement or was that just hearsay on your part?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2016)

noco said:


> You quoted witch hunting in the Joh era, can you explain in detail with some link or back up to your statement or was that just hearsay on your part?




I distinctly remember Joh ranting about Communists and Socialists as much as he could. There were Red under every bed in Qld apparently.


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2016)

noco said:


> Firstly, I think Rudd was cunning enough to cover his dirty tracks in the Greach case and both Greach and Turnbull came off second best....Greach knew the real truth but the evidence had been destroyed and he had no back up.
> 
> I believe the WITCH HUNT you mention is a bit of a fairy tale story about the fable of real witches and nothing really to do with Campbell Newman doing a witch hunt on MPs I-Phones and I-Pads
> 
> You quoted witch hunting in the Joh era, can you explain in detail with some link or back up to your statement or was that just hearsay on your part?




Trolling with ridiculous bait AGAIN! Don't you get fed up using and failing with, the contrived ignoramus card to get a rise out of members? 

In the remote possibility you have lost your marbles:


 you could start at the end with him in court being successfully prosecuted by his own team and stripped of his superannuation for criminalty in office etc. You could exercise your own brain and research the number of people he prosecuted with taxpayer monies through the courts......errr duh

Grech confessed to the feds .... errr duh


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I distinctly remember Joh ranting about Communists and Socialists as much as he could. There were Red under every bed in Qld apparently.




Joh would have a heart attack in Vic.
Roz ward springs to mind.


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2016)

moXJO said:


> Joh would have a heart attack in Vic.
> Roz ward springs to mind.





I take it you are too young to remember Henry Bolte? He hated everyone so much even despised his coalition partners, but garnered support form the Labor party when needs must; go figure. He used massive public debt to build real infrastructure stuff, he was....... probably the earliest manifestation of the current Labor Party.


----------



## noco (18 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Trolling with ridiculous bait AGAIN! Don't you get fed up using and failing with, the contrived ignoramus card to get a rise out of members?
> 
> In the remote possibility you have lost your marbles:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the insults.

It is your usual juvenile stance when you are mad a fool of and brought into line with your Boo Boos.....Take it like man.


----------



## Tisme (19 December 2016)

noco said:


> Thanks for the insults.
> 
> It is your usual juvenile stance when you are mad a fool of and brought into line with your Boo Boos.....Take it like man.




I doubt I could insult you and I haven't. I did leave a door open for you though, but your rage slammed it shut 

It's up to you to stop trolling for effect. If you don't want to feel all angryman, just start corresponding with civility, instead of baiting with the deliberately inflammatory rewriting of history and recidivist anti working class sentimentality. You are not Bunyip Aristocracy material matey.

I've been on BBs since 1992, do you really think I don't know how to handle your attacks on common sense?


----------



## noco (19 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I doubt I could insult you and I haven't. I did leave a door open for you though, but your rage slammed it shut
> 
> It's up to you to stop trolling for effect. If you don't want to feel all angryman, just start corresponding with civility, instead of baiting with the deliberately inflammatory rewriting of history and recidivist anti working class sentimentality. You are not Bunyip Aristocracy material matey.
> 
> I've been on BBs since 1992, do you really think I don't know how to handle your attacks on common sense?




I could not help LMAO......I ROFL.

Tisme don't get angry, get even.
:horse:


----------



## Tisme (19 December 2016)

noco said:


> I could not help LMAO......I ROFL.
> 
> Tisme don't get angry, get even.
> :horse:




It's not the now defunct BrawlHall, but it's a nice memory of it here that you might like to sink your teeth into:

http://thirdrailforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=00c95fcf71abcaae057a38d1c9940354&


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2017)

What does it take for the left to admit something....???


----------



## SirRumpole (6 January 2017)

DB008 said:


> What does it take for the left to admit something....???




Exactly who do you want to admit what ?


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2017)

CNN - left wing news network. Turn the tables - if this were 5 white kids doing this to a special needs young black man, they would turn it into a national outrage.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 January 2017)

DB008 said:


> CNN - left wing news network. Turn the tables - if this were 5 white kids doing this to a special needs young black man, they would turn it into a national outrage.




It IS a national outrage no matter who does it. You think CNN is Left Wing ? What an original proposition.


----------



## DB008 (3 June 2017)

I will call out the left and the right as they both do stupid things. It's human nature. I try to sit in the centre.

Anyways, looks like the lefties in the USA are like the lefties here, trying to make the loudest noise.

Check out Kathy Griffin.






She did a photo shoot a few days ago holding a mock Trump head, decapitated.

Now she is blaming Trump.











And then go after Trump's 11 year old son.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 June 2017)

The latest bit of insanity, publishing photographs of Muslims without a hijab should be a criminal offence - Greens.

What about a Cardinal wearing a T-Shirt ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-...privacy-revenge-pr0n-laws-in-canberra/8585620


----------



## noco (3 June 2017)

DB008 said:


> I will call out the left and the right as they both do stupid things. It's human nature. I try to sit in the centre.
> 
> Anyways, looks like the lefties in the USA are like the lefties here, trying to make the loudest noise.
> 
> ...




Joe Blow, do you approve of this type of post or do we turn a blind eye to it.....It is disgraceful.


----------



## moXJO (3 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The latest bit of insanity, publishing photographs of Muslims without a hijab should be a criminal offence - Greens.
> 
> What about a Cardinal wearing a T-Shirt ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-...privacy-revenge-pr0n-laws-in-canberra/8585620



A person's privacy is something I support regardless of belief. If it was on private land and the photo was taken then its illegal anyway. If it was a private moment between two people then it should remain that way.
Everyone now has a phone permanently attached to their hand thinking they can post anything.
Those posting damaging stuff on social media should be reigned in a bit.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 June 2017)

moXJO said:


> A person's privacy is something I support regardless of belief. If it was on private land and the photo was taken then its illegal anyway. If it was a private moment between two people then it should remain that way.
> Everyone now has a phone permanently attached to their hand thinking they can post anything.
> Those posting damaging stuff on social media should be reigned in a bit.




In general I agree. What I find interesting and disturbing is politicians making statements like



> "We're talking about things like a photograph potentially of a Muslim woman who normally would wear a hijab when she's out, *and her community expects her to wear a hijab.*




There is no such thing as community expectations regarding whether a women should wear a hijab or not. It's entirely an individual choice what they wear in public. If they are being subjected to some sort of coercion by others as to what she should wear, then that is a violation of her rights as an individual. 

If we allow that sort of thing, then we might as well say it's a community expectation that she enters into an arranged marriage, or that she doesn't go to university because she is needed to do the cooking at home.

It's about time that the Greens realised that women are being repressed in the Muslim religion, and they should start supporting individual rights instead of in effect supporting repressive religious practices.


----------



## Tisme (4 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In general I agree. What I find interesting and disturbing is politicians making statements like
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Multi culturalism versus assimilation ....... everyone is free to **** the mob, so long as the mob is anglo white and "everyone" isn't.


----------



## DB008 (4 June 2017)

noco said:


> Joe Blow, do you approve of this type of post or do we turn a blind eye to it.....It is disgraceful.




Nico, this is huge in the USA. It has been all over the mainstream media since it happened.


----------



## pixel (4 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no such thing as community expectations regarding whether a women should wear a hijab or not. It's entirely an individual choice what they wear in public. If they are being subjected to some sort of coercion by others as to what she should wear, then that is a violation of her rights as an individual.
> 
> If we allow that sort of thing, then we might as well say it's a community expectation that she enters into an arranged marriage, or that she doesn't go to university because she is needed to do the cooking at home.
> 
> It's about time that the Greens realised that women are being repressed in the Muslim religion, and they should start supporting individual rights instead of in effect supporting repressive religious practices.



... but wait: Don't certain "communities" expect a woman to have her clitoris chopped off so she doesn't enjoy "it"?
Or that a thief have a hand chopped off?
OK, coming to think of it, *that *might actually deter some pollies dipping into the public purse, like ordering a chopper instead of a taxi, or having their mutts chauffeured to the farm. So, that is something the community might expect, but it'll never pass the Senate


----------



## Tisme (4 June 2017)

noco said:


> Joe Blow, do you approve of this type of post or do we turn a blind eye to it.....It is disgraceful.




Degrees, my son, degrees. Who would have thought a once conservative political party would resort to and encourage things like this:
	

		
			
		

		
	









	

		
			
		

		
	
 :


----------



## noco (5 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Degrees, my son, degrees. Who would have thought a once conservative political party would resort to and encourage things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Tisme, do you honestly believe Tony Abbott or one of his followers set up those placards behind him......I am sure he is a better person than that......I would say it would more likely be a  Green holding that placard who sneaked in behind him without his (Abbott)knowledge.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 June 2017)

noco said:


> Tisme, do you honestly believe Tony Abbott or one of his followers set up those placards behind him......I am sure he is a better person than that......I would say it would more likely be a  Green holding that placard who sneaked in behind him without his (Abbott)knowledge.




Then of course , Tony Abbott being a gentleman would apologise for being seen with those signs ?

Er well, perhaps not.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-03-...e-for-climate-rally-abuse/2644630?pfmredir=sm


----------



## Tisme (5 June 2017)

noco said:


> Tisme, do you honestly believe Tony Abbott or one of his followers set up those placards behind him......I am sure he is a better person than that......I would say it would more likely be a  Green holding that placard who sneaked in behind him without his (Abbott)knowledge.





Yep, They conceived, they promoted and they endorsed it. A truly low point in Australian community where hate played out for electoral advantage.

And incase you come at me with the old chestnut of being biased, well yes I campaigned against her, but never lowered to the gutter like Abbott and Coy did.


----------



## Tisme (13 December 2017)




----------



## luutzu (13 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> View attachment 85212




It's not the arrival that's the problem. It's what happened next that's a bit errmm... deadly.


----------



## vivazebull (14 December 2017)

I am curious about how people on this type of forum feel about the future under this system, with the current trends of innovation and automation. I realise that "bugger the reasons, show me the cash" is a primary investing attitude but I have often thought about things like growing job losses due to automation, and the effect on the purchasing power of the consumers, the effect on property prices etc. Could it be argued that the invisible hand of the market will correct everything and after the job losses, mergers, hostile takeovers and property market corrections are all over and done with, people will be working less and affording everything at the price set by the adjusted market; or does the government need to consider more responsibility...
Thanks


----------



## SirRumpole (14 December 2017)

vivazebull said:


> or does the government need to consider more responsibility...




I think governments need to reconsider taxation systems as their receipts from personal income tax will fall and if they don't compensate by collecting more from companies the national accounts are going to be in a big mess.

Consumers are the ones who are doing it tough and they need a tax cut before business does. It's funny how the "debt and deficit disaster" mantra of Abbott has now been silenced, it seems that a deficit double Labor's is ok under the Libs , because the Libs are so much better economic managers.


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think governments need to reconsider taxation systems as their receipts from personal income tax will fall and if they don't compensate by collecting more from companies the national accounts are going to be in a big mess.
> 
> Consumers are the ones who are doing it tough and they need a tax cut before business does. It's funny how the "debt and deficit disaster" mantra of Abbott has now been silenced, it seems that a deficit double Labor's is ok under the Libs , because the Libs are so much better economic managers.



The thing is, we don't have a true liberal government. We have social democrats in charge under a liberal banner. Let me reassure you that the deficit is still a bit topic with those of the economic right


----------



## qldfrog (14 December 2017)

and deficit should be even more of a concern for a left with brain


----------



## dutchie (25 January 2018)

From the Feminism thread....

Cathy Newman is the perfect , MSM leftist, interviewer. She could get a job at the ABC or SBS in an instant.

She is manipulative, she does not listen to the debate, she does not comprehend the debate, she does not have any logical arguments, she is hysterically funny in her lack of insight.


----------



## Tisme (25 January 2018)

dutchie said:


> From the Feminism thread....
> 
> Cathy Newman is the perfect , MSM leftist, interviewer. She could get a job at the ABC or SBS in an instant.
> 
> She is manipulative, she does not listen to the debate, she does not comprehend the debate, she does not have any logical arguments, she is hysterically funny in her lack of insight.




I'm starting to think she has membership here under an avatar. LOL


----------



## dutchie (25 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm starting to think she has membership here under an avatar. LOL




Noted. LOL


----------



## sptrawler (26 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think governments need to reconsider taxation systems as their receipts from personal income tax will fall and if they don't compensate by collecting more from companies the national accounts are going to be in a big mess.
> 
> Consumers are the ones who are doing it tough and they need a tax cut before business does. It's funny how the "debt and deficit disaster" mantra of Abbott has now been silenced, it seems that a deficit double Labor's is ok under the Libs , because the Libs are so much better economic managers.




I think everyone who is capable of working and of working age , should be working, a novel thought.
I think labors idea of cutting back the negative gearing and CGT concessions should be taken up.
I think company tax cuts should be linked to investment in added capacity in Australian production.
I think resources should be taxed on a volume basis, not on an earnings basis.
But I fart against the wind. lol


----------



## DB008 (27 January 2018)




----------



## wayneL (28 July 2018)

I find it curious that if an individual is not into the rainbow agenda,  white privilege, socislist economics, no borders,  mass immigration from incongruent cultures,  third wave feminism,  then that individual is surely far or alt right. 

It seems the spectrum no longer exists where one can be somewhere about the center without being called a Nazi, a thisist or a thatophobe.

When will thoughtful duscussion and debate return?


----------



## Tink (3 August 2018)

We shall soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four, in which people will persecute the heresy of calling a triangle a three-sided figure, and hang a man for maddening a mob with the news that grass is green.

_-- G. K. Chesterton_


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2018)

Tink said:


> We shall soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four, in which people will persecute the heresy of calling a triangle a three-sided figure, and hang a man for maddening a mob with the news that grass is green.
> 
> _-- G. K. Chesterton_



Can't resist this howling this one down... Marriage can't be had between four people, three sides is adultery and the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side


----------



## Junior (3 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> I find it curious that if an individual is not into the rainbow agenda,  white privilege, socislist economics, no borders,  mass immigration from incongruent cultures,  third wave feminism,  then that individual is surely far or alt right.
> 
> It seems the spectrum no longer exists where one can be somewhere about the center without being called a Nazi, a thisist or a thatophobe.
> 
> When will thoughtful duscussion and debate return?




Most aussies are in the Centre, out there in the real world.  

It's the media and online forums which paint a different reality.


----------



## Tink (13 August 2018)

*Who knows how the Victorian government’s Orwellian social experiment will end?*

_ “We’re destroying words — scores of them, hundreds of them, every day. We’re cutting the language down to the bone …

“Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.”_

My son is studying George Orwell and we chatted about Nineteen Eighty-Four over breakfast this week. If he chooses to look, this book is jumping to life all around him. Books are cleansed of words that must not be said. Books by Enid Blyton, mind you. And Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Finn,too.

Speaking at university has become dangerous if you don’t repeat orthodox thinking. Comics have given up playing to snowflake student audiences. Words such as sexual assault and sexual harassment are being defined down to include the telling of a bad joke. At his school, boys were told not to use the word moist because it could offend girls. The cleansing of language and ideas has become disturbingly quotidian.

And this week’s live-streaming of Nineteen Eighty-Four comes to us from Australia’s biggest social laboratory where the Andrews Labor government has a tighter grip on thought crimes than on it does on marauding South Sudanese gangs. On Thursday, Victorian Minister for Transport (and censorship) Jacinta Allan banned Sky News from television screens at Metro Trains stations because one host conducted one interview with far-right ratbag Blair Cottrell last Sunday. Sky News apologised and leading Sky names such as David Speers rightly condemned giving a platform to a moron who likes Hitler. But the Labor government banned an entire news organisation so that train commuters “can see something they may be a bit more comfortable with”, to quote Allan, who maybe hasn’t spent much time perusing her portfolio platforms. The Cottrell interview was not part of the Sky News feed that plays at train station screens.

Allan has snookered herself with her hysterical over-reaction. The Transport Minister can’t switch platform TVs to an ABC news feed or the Seven Network or Ten because all of them have aired or tried to air Cottrell. Perhaps a 24-hour stream of E! News and Kimmy K will keep commuters “comfortable”. When the state decides to censor for comfortable ideas, we have reached a deeper level of trouble for our liberty.

Victoria’s Nineteen Eighty-Four moment a week earlier involved the state’s Department of Health and Human Services telling public servants what pronouns to use, with the first Wednesday of each month set aside as “They Day”.

A video for public servants made by public servants features enforcement officer Naomi Shimoda and others talking about the need for inclusive gender-neutral pronouns. It allows people to “self-define” and to “make space so their pronouns are legitimate and respected.”

Some will say that people should be able to choose whatever pronoun they want and that it is only polite that others respect that choice. Others will say “blah, blah, blah” and wave the kerfuffle away as just another episode of nutty political correctness by busybody social activists. The sceptics know to be beware of the blah, blah, blah because the battle over gender-neutral pronouns in other countries is a hint of where we may be headed. Not for nothing, the self-appointed pronoun police behind the “They Day” video included an enforcement officer. Silly-sounding nonsense has a habit of attracting enforcers, be they vigilante-style citizens or bureaucrats and legislators, who tell us what we are allowed to say, read, watch, even laugh at. And inevitably, what we are allowed to think. It is the death of liberty by a thousand cuts.

Language police in the ACT Labor caucus want to do away with references to Mr, Miss, Mrs or Ms in the ACT parliament. No more Madam Speaker. And it is Member Smith instead of Mr Smith. The Bolsheviks wanted to do away with gender too, so why not just call him Comrade Smith, source some bleak-coloured Bolshevik uniforms and declare victory?

Labor’s proposals are not about respecting diversity. This is an agenda to force the same grey and genderless linguistic uniform on everyone. Cleansing gender from pronouns is about killing difference. Being polite is one thing; but political correctness moved beyond civility long ago, if that was ever the aim. When the cleansing of language is backed by directives, regulations or laws, it compels us to speak in one particular way. By stopping us from speaking freely, the aim is to stop us thinking freely. And that is antithetical to freedom in a liberal society.

An obscure Canadian psychologist became a cultural rock star because he explained, in a calm and reasoned manner, why he would not be forced to use speech prescribed by the state. Nor would he stop using words proscribed by the state. Less than two years ago, Jordan Peterson took a stand against Canada’s proposed Bill C-16, which effectively compels the use of gender-neutral pronouns by adding legal protection to “gender identity” and “gender expression”.

Peterson was on to something long before the rest of us. Within six months of the bill becoming law, Lindsay Shepherd, a teaching assistant at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario, was called into a university administrator’s office and condemned by professors for showing a clip that was “threatening” and “transphobic”. Her professorial accusers said it created a “toxic climate” for students and was the equivalent of “neutrally playing a speech by Hitler”. She was accused of breaching C-16 laws. Shepherd’s crime was to show her students — during a tutorial on how language affects society — a televised debate between two people with different views about gender and pronouns. One of the speakers was Peterson.

We know the details because a teary Shepherd recorded the meeting, which could be slotted seamlessly into chapter 5 of Nineteen Eighty-Four just before Winston discusses with Syme, a specialist in Newspeak, how the dictionary of approved language is progressing. C-16 has weaponised gender-neutral pronouns in the hands of human rights bureaucrats and complainants, and that is a chilling threat to freedom.

Ten years ago, the Alberta Human Rights Commission investigated a complaint brought against Ezra Levant for publishing the Danish cartoons of the prophet Mohammed. The complaint was dropped, but not before a bureaucrat questioned Levant about his intention in publishing the cartoons. The interrogation reminded Levant of Hannah Arendt’s “banality of evil”.

“No six-foot brown shirt here, no police cell at midnight,” he wrote. “Just Shirlene McGovern, an amiable enough bureaucrat, casually asking me about my political thoughts, on behalf of the government of Alberta. And she’ll write up a report about it, and recommend that the government do this or that to me … I had half-expected a combative, missionary-style interrogator. I found, instead, a limp clerk who was just punching the clock … In a way, that’s more terrifying.”

O Canada! How it has made a mockery of being “The True North, strong and free”. A free society is curtailed by stealth when out-of-sight bureaucrats investigate the free expression of words, ideas and cartoons. And freedom lost is not easily reinstated. An Australian law compelling us to use certain pronouns may not be far off because we have followed Canada before. We picked up Canada’s gift to the world, multiculturalism. And just as the Canadian Human Rights Commission has gone awry, accused by founder Alan Borovoy for falling into disrepute, our own Australian Human Rights Commission has wrecked its reputation, too. When was the last time the AHRC focused on core human rights such as free speech or property rights? Instead, it is a bloated bureaucracy whose enforcers protect hurt feelings, not human rights.

And dob-in-a-dissident was sanctioned when Race Commissar — oops, Commissioner — Tim Soutphommasane touted for business when The Australian’s Bill Leak drew a cartoon that threw into sharp relief the complex issues of individual responsibility and the dismal plight of indigenous children. Yet Soutphommasane had nothing to say about a dance performance in Melbourne this year where white people were told to wait in the lobby while the performance began inside the theatre.  His departure is a blessing for anyone committed to genuine human rights.

The AHRC’s wretched handling of complaints against three Queensland University of Technology students who posted on Facebook about the absurdity of racial segregation only confirmed its role as an anti-human rights bureaucracy. The career epitaph of former commission boss Gillian Triggs should read: “Sadly you can say what you like around the kitchen table at home.”

Examples abound of bureaucracies that have run amok when armed with social engineering laws that were once seen as innocuous nonsense. Applauding the recent decision of the US to pull out of the UN Human Rights Council, Liberal MP Julian Leeser has pointed out that this council is not some harmless bureaucracy.

Delivering the 2018 B’nai B’rith Human Rights Address, Leeser said that human rights had often been hijacked and “in the (UN) Human Rights Council we see a blatant attempt by those who oppose liberal democratic ideals to commandeer the apparatus of human rights so that they might hide and obstruct its abuses”.

“It is a bureaucracy that has appropriated the name of the parliament. The committee is about bureaucrats judging parliament, rather than the parliament judging human rights.” And just about every report attacks the government’s legislative agenda “in the form of rehashed talking points from left-wing and social justice groups that have no connection to ‘real’ human rights”.

In 1994, before he became prime minister, John Howard warned about the rise of cultural McCarthyism in this country. Talk about mission creep. Who could have foreseen their reach and influence? Short of securing legislative wins, social engineers understand that getting, holding and extending their power through unelected bureaucracies is critical to the pursuit of creating public-free zones where real power vests, far away from prying democratic processes. No one knows how the current batch of social experiments will end. But history shows that something that sounds harmless, like a friendly video about gender-neutral pronouns put out by bureaucrats, can end up curtailing our liberty.

_https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/jordan-peterson.33786/page-6_


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2018)

Tink said:


> *Who knows how the Victorian government’s Orwellian social experiment will end?*
> 
> _ “We’re destroying words — scores of them, hundreds of them, every day. We’re cutting the language down to the bone …
> 
> “Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.”_




You need one of my caps:


----------



## DB008 (12 May 2019)

This is friggin crazy.

Has this BS started here yet?

​


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2019)

Yeah our handball team is smashing it.  
Meh.... equal rights and all that.


----------



## wayneL (16 May 2019)

Nail. 
Head. 
Hit.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2019)

I would like your post Wayne, but I am worried about the abuse I will wear, from those who want to put an end to bullying.


----------



## moXJO (8 June 2019)

Here is the current left tactics that are being taught:
https://beautifultrouble.org/all-modules/

It's not just random events every time we see a person labeled and hounded. Its targeted attacks to not only shift power but also to silence.


----------



## wayneL (30 June 2019)

Watershed moment


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0 (30 June 2019)

wayneL said:


> Watershed moment





Waynee-poo, can you please explain. There was no "taking turns at beating the crap out of"  anyone. One person threw a couple, then a few people threw food and drinks. Secondly, it looked and sounded like a traditional Leftie (lesbian) on the recieving end.


----------



## bellenuit (30 June 2019)

The guy was a journalist who exposes hoax stories.

_Celebrated journalist and hoax specialist Andy Ngo was violently assaulted today to the point of a brain hemorrhage by a group of Portland Antifa members. Brandishing weapons, the mob bruised and bloodied Ngo, stealing his Go Pro camera that contains the real-time evidence of the assault._

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/b...alist-violently-assaulted-by-portland-antifa/


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0 (30 June 2019)

Thought it was a chick, thought I heard yells of "bitch, hoe" etc.
After photos aren't good evidence. Easy to makes things worse yourself lol.


----------



## wayneL (30 June 2019)

Brain hemorrhage is pretty good evidence of a serious assault @Dark Knight 2.0 , wouldn't you think?

Additionally,  the milk shakes were going evidently laced with quick-crete.  Tantamount to (though not Ricin) a chemical attack,  is it not?
Mark this  moment,  I think things will substantively change from this point on.


----------



## wayneL (30 June 2019)

Compare MS medias treatment between this and Covington Kids. That should tell you what you need  too know.


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0 (30 June 2019)

I always look forward to your posts Wayne


----------



## wayneL (1 July 2019)




----------



## wayneL (1 July 2019)

Dark Knight 2.0 said:


> I always look forward to your posts Wayne



They are personal opinions,  the result of  almost 40 year of adulting. 

Maybe they're wrong,  maybe they're right...  Maybe some wrong, some right, Bruce .

Always up for respectful discussion and reserve the right to change my mind.


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0 (2 July 2019)

wayneL said:


> They are personal opinions,  the result of  almost 40 year of adulting.
> 
> Maybe they're wrong,  maybe they're right...  Maybe some wrong, some right, Bruce .
> 
> Always up for respectful discussion and reserve the right to change my mind.




Respectful debate, disrepectful debate,  doesn't quite matter to me. I like you Wayne.


----------



## qldfrog (2 July 2019)

What a beautiful bromance


----------



## wayneL (2 July 2019)

I expect if we ever met,  there would be lots of laughing


----------



## bellenuit (4 July 2019)

Some articles on the modern day Fascists, Antifa.....

Antifa’s Brutal Assault on Andy Ngo Is a Wake-Up Call—for Authorities and Journalists Alike

https://quillette.com/2019/06/30/an...p-call-for-authorities-and-journalists-alike/

It’s Not Your Imagination: The Journalists Writing About Antifa Are Often Their Cheerleaders

https://quillette.com/2019/05/29/it...ng-about-antifa-are-often-their-cheerleaders/


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0 (4 July 2019)

Bit of a beat up if you ask me.


----------



## moXJO (4 July 2019)

Whats with the left attacking minorities? 

A gay vietnamese that was the son of  immigrants. 

Antifa look like fascists to me. Gutless enough to wear masks as well.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (4 July 2019)

Dark Knight 2.0 said:


> Bit of a beat up if you ask me.




well played!


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2019)

Go to google search page and type:

Men can 

Make sure you make a space after the n and look at the auto results.
Delete that.

Now type:

 women can


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2019)

Madness.....

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...ly-two-genders-told-its-not-a4180816.html?amp


----------



## Macquack (5 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> Go to google search page and type:
> 
> Men can
> 
> ...



What am I supposed to be getting outraged about?


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 July 2019)

Macquack said:


> What am I supposed to be getting outraged about?



I think that sums up the whole thing quite well really.


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2019)

Macquack said:


> What am I supposed to be getting outraged about?



Why do you need to get outraged?


----------



## Macquack (5 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> Why do you need to get outraged?



I was taking the piss, mimicking WayneL an co.who love to get outraged by the lunatic left.


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2019)

Outrage is for lefties Quack. I just chronicle it, incredulous at how ludicrous it is.


----------



## DB008 (28 July 2019)

Sums it up...

​


----------



## wayneL (29 October 2019)

The absolute mental pathology of the left is exemplified by their reaction to Abu Bakr's death.

Well documented in your favourite version of Pravda.


----------



## basilio (29 October 2019)

wayneL said:


> The absolute mental pathology of the left is exemplified by their reaction to Abu Bakr's death.
> 
> Well documented in your favourite version of Pravda.




And the problem with these reports  are  what exactly ???  

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-that-killed-isis-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/28/doubts-over-trump-dramatic-account-baghdadi-raid

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...dis-death-not-enough-to-destroy-islamic-state


----------



## wayneL (29 October 2019)

wayneL said:


> The absolute mental pathology of the left is exemplified by their reaction to Abu Bakr's death.
> 
> Well documented in your favourite version of Pravda.



You didn't read WaPo, NYT et al?


----------



## Logique (1 November 2019)

By Steve Hunter, 2019


----------



## Logique (1 November 2019)

Oh dear! Only a brief clip ..ouch


----------



## Tink (3 November 2019)

*‘No ethics? No morality?’: Neil Mitchell takes aim at Daniel Andrews over new China deal*

Premier Daniel Andrews yesterday signed another deal with China, a controversial decision which has attracted criticism from many, including 3AW’s Neil Mitchell.

Mr Andrews signed on to the infrastructure deal, which is the second step in the Belt and Road initiative, while on his sixth trip to China.

Under the deal, Victoria and China have agreed to work together on major infrastructure, innovation, and tackling the challenges posed by ageing populations.

Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton spoke out after the signing of the agreement, accusing Mr Andrews of failing to act in Australia’s national interest.

Neil Mitchell also criticised Mr Andrews for ignoring China’s poor human rights record.

“He seems to have a bendable sense of morality,” the 3AW Mornings host said.

“China is brutalising protestors in Hong Kong.

“China is reasonably suspected of hacking into our parliamentary computer system.

“China is keeping Uighur Muslims in concentration camps.

“China runs a social credit system.

“But for money we turn our backs on all the horror!

“Do we have no ethics? No morality?”

Neil Mitchell called on the premier to reconsider his cooperation with China.

“This is the same Daniel Andrews who lectured the federal government about Syrian refugees!,” he said.

“Where’s the decency and fairness in supporting and working in partnership with a brutal, undemocratic, devious regime?


https://www.3aw.com.au/no-ethics-no...es-aim-at-daniel-andrews-over-new-china-deal/


----------



## qldfrog (3 November 2019)

Hello Tink,
This is an interesting one
How should we act with China?
We all agree with the wrong doing there yet with China as number one trading client, i think we are screwed
Years after years of limp government responses from both sides means that we can not even pretend to make a stand
I might be wrong but if we had acted manly from the start (figure of speech here, no anti feminism), we could be respected by China, but our past, ever changing government policies and western focus: gay marriage, Kardashian, wasting billions on pretending fighting climate change, etc 
China sees us as jokers and dimwits and they can now squeeze us at will
We may just get what we deserved
If i started a startup in china, it is because China was offering the opportunity, not CSIRO, not CBA or a government agency.
But that's ok, we can get more immigration to boost building constructions.
So should i take a principle position and keep pushing paper in a corporate job, being denied here jobs based on my sex so that bhp and rio can reach their 50pc female leadership quotas? or do i commute to China monthly and use my AI degree for the first time in 30y?
The answer was easy.
The patents are now chinese owned.
We get what we deserve


----------



## wayneL (4 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> but our past, ever changing government policies and western focus: gay marriage, Kardashian, wasting billions on pretending fighting climate change, etc
> China sees us as jokers and dimwits



100% correct. Baizuo


----------



## Tink (4 November 2019)

How history forgets their one child policy.


----------



## PZ99 (4 November 2019)

The benefits of the one child policy will materialise over the next 40-50 years and I wouldn't be surprised if other nations adopt it afterwards.


----------



## Tink (4 November 2019)

The one-child policy was a program that was implemented nationwide by the Chinese government in 1980 in order to limit most Chinese families to one child each. The policy was enacted to address the growth rate of China’s population, which the government viewed as being too high. In late 2015 the government announced that the one-child limit per family would end in 2016. Here are some of the major consequences of the policy.


The fertility rate decreased after 1980.
The birth rate decreased after 1980.
The overall rate of natural increase (the difference between the birth rate and the death rate) declined.
The Chinese government estimated that some 400 million births were prevented by the policy, although some analysts dispute this finding.
As sons were generally preferred over daughters, the overall sex ratio in China became skewed toward males. In 2016 there were 33.59 million more men than women.
Because of the preference for sons, there was a rise in the number of abortions of female fetuses.
The number of female babies killed, abandoned, or placed in orphanages increased as a result of the policy.
Incentives were offered to families complying with the policy, including financial perks and greater employment options.
Millions of Chinese parents had to endure strict enforcement methods of the policy, including forced sterilization and forced abortions.
In families that already had one child, the births of additional children—in violation of the one-child policy—were often undocumented, leading to many problems later on for those children as they struggled to receive an education or find work.
Even after the one-child policy was rescinded, China’s birth and fertility rates remained low, leaving the country with a population that was aging too rapidly as well as a shrinking workforce.


----------



## PZ99 (4 November 2019)

And as time goes by the ratio of workers vs the aged will increase, leaving China in a stronger position than say - a welfare state like Australia, where the aged will continue to draw revenue from a dwindling pool of workers. Ultimately, our quality of life will decrease as a result of a rollback of Govt programs to sponsor the welfare needs.


----------



## wayneL (6 November 2019)




----------



## PZ99 (7 November 2019)

LOL @ Richo decrying political violence.

He might be hung, drawn and quartered by midnight in todays' political world but not in 1980 

He votes Liberal these days. Maybe copped a midnight visit the night before. Karma's a beech.

Ask Latham


----------



## wayneL (7 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> LOL @ Richo decrying political violence.
> 
> He might be hung, drawn and quartered by midnight in todays' political world but not in 1980
> 
> ...



He was pretty toxic back then, yes.

But that doesn't take away the ABC appearing to endorse political violence from these psychiatric ward escapees. That's the point here, not Richo.


----------



## PZ99 (7 November 2019)

It might "appear" that way to a political bloggist like Keira Savage. Her previous post suggests the ABC "get together a panel of man-haters to promote violence against men"

If that's how she sees the ABC then I don't believe anything she writes.


----------



## wayneL (7 November 2019)

So you endorse the views of those panelists?


----------



## PZ99 (7 November 2019)

Nope. Never said I did.


----------



## kahuna1 (7 November 2019)

This is the Right wing ....

Sadly ... Right wing.
Anything said about left is not holding a candle to this Trump Advisor !!



The White house is holy ground ... saying NO to Trump .. is saying no to god !!

This woman ... Trumps devoted follower and main advisor was Bennie Hinds girlfriend for some time. Bennie is even nuttier than her ...


Please speak in tongues like this nutjob.  
Are all right wing people like this ? 
It seems so.


----------



## wayneL (7 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Nope. Never said I did.



You'll forgive my confusion then if it seemed that you considered Richos and Keiras criticisms as illegitimate


----------



## PZ99 (7 November 2019)

wayneL said:


> You'll forgive my confusion then if it seemed that you considered Richos and Keiras criticisms as illegitimate



You're forgiven 

I consider Keiras' criticisms as incorrect based on her political disposition.
I consider Richos' comments as hypocritical based on his past.

I don't consider the ABC giving airtime to lefty panelists as endorsing their views.

Just as I don't consider the ABC giving airtime to Alan Jones as endorsing his views.

Which is ironic given both views are remarkably similar when it comes to advocating violence


----------



## kahuna1 (7 November 2019)

basilio said:


> Donald Trump "I only hire the best people"
> 
> Paula White. "The Devils handmaiden or Gods appointed saviour ?"
> 
> ...





A classic .... yep it makes any other view look sane.

You couldn't make this up.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-spir...dents-opponents-suggests-they-operate-1470197

OWN her ... she is just one of 200 or so similar types.

Right wing types.


----------



## wayneL (7 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> You're forgiven
> 
> I consider Keiras' criticisms as incorrect based on her political disposition.
> I consider Richos' comments as hypocritical based on his past.
> ...



I think that comparison may be further analysis. On the one side it seems rather metaphorical however on the side of the q&A panel it seems to be a direct and we'll call to violence.

for instance if I remarked that some set of news is going to blow someone away, that's not to be taking literally as blowing their head off, it is metaphorical.

the q and A's panel call to violence was only partially metaphorical but did contain some actual calls to violence in my opinion.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 November 2019)

It's just typical of whipped up confected outrage by Newscorp to try to damage the ABC at every opportunity.... as well as any other news organisation. (Though the feminist do go too far.) It is Newscorps plan to create loyalty with their viewers and tie them to their network. Quite clever.

Of more worry is actual violence, a wine seller in East Brunswick asked a woman if she would like to enter his Cup sweep and was subsequently spat on in the face!
The call by the LBGQTI community to delete Margaret Court the greatest ever tennis player in terms of results from history!
The attack on the old lefty Leunig basically because he hit a raw nerve with a cartoon with women using their phone while pushing a pram and now he is a misogynist!
The attack today on the AGE crossword for having a word clue that was a derogatory name for women.
The attack on police horses at the mining rally as well as 4 policeman, two who entered up in hospital. This included women spitting on delegates.

Outrage has become the new normal. I really do think there are feminazis now.
I think social media is whipping up certain personality types into a frenzy. I have no answer for it.
Men are still constrained by society but women appear to have free reign.


----------



## qldfrog (7 November 2019)

@Knobby22 much appreciate that answer, that is what i like about this asf forum.
With people like you, @SirRumpole , we can have some proper discussion instead of having to push to the extremes,


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Outrage has become the new normal. I really do think there are feminazis now.
> I think social media is whipping up certain personality types into a frenzy. I have no answer for it.
> Men are still constrained by society but women appear to have free reign.




I couldn't agree more.

The ABC is now a feminazi organisation for sure.

They got into outrage mode of Pauline Hanson's suggestion that some women lie in the Family Court. Shock horror, as if the little darlings would do such a thing. Basically every interview on that subject was with women, telling the women's view. Nothing from the other side at all.

The Drum is virtually dominated by women. They may have a token man on at times but they are usually feminists themselves who are under the thumb or don't get a proper look in.

Men are definitely second class in the ABC.


----------



## kahuna1 (7 November 2019)

We rule the world .... white men ... typically racist under-educated and corrupt. MAGA 2020

Forget about any non christian .... or god forbid non white ... or woman or Asian.  

I so love this thread. Pity the Christchurch guy who was a member of this site  is not here to add his two cents worth. 

Sorry just vomited even typing that one.


----------



## kahuna1 (7 November 2019)

Two children of posters on this thread ?


----------



## Knobby22 (7 November 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> We rule the world .... white men ... typically racist under-educated and corrupt. MAGA 2020
> 
> Forget about any non christian .... or god forbid non white ... or woman or Asian.
> 
> ...




You are comparing apples with lemons.

Why is what I say wrong rather than talking about a separate issue?
(By the way, again I will defend the ABC)


----------



## bigdog (7 November 2019)

Todays Herald Sun

*Andrew Bolt: Calls for violence show ABC is out of control*
You know the ABC has lost its impartiality when calls for political violence on a panel show go unchallenged. When will the Morrison Government hold the broadcaster to account, asks Andrew Bolt.

On Monday the ABC broadcast its most dangerous show yet. Why is it inciting political violence, including calls for killing and arson?

That _Q&A_ show marks the ABC’s most open declaration of war against our culture.

Once again, _Q&A_ was stacked with Leftist activists, this time including host Fran Kelly, despite the national broadcaster being required by law to be impartial.

Once again, _Q&A_ had the foul language — lots of f-words — and anti-white racism that’s now common on an ABC that’s tipping into barbarity.

But on Monday the ABC went beyond crudity, bias and race-hate to actually spruik for political violence.

It started with this leading question, preselected by the show’s producers: “When trying to bring about significant change, when is aggression and violence a better option than assertiveness, strong arguments and modelling the behaviour you expect of others?”

The answer, in this democratic society, should be “never”. We must settle arguments peacefully, or else heads get broken and the most violent rule.

But on _Q&A_ no fewer than four panellists seemed to defend or even recommend violence, with not one person objecting.

First was Ashton Applewhite, an “anti-ageism” activist: “There are many causes where people have resorted to violence as a way to finally break through and get heard and achieve what we need. And if that’s what it takes, that’s what it takes.”..

Mona Eltahawy, a militant feminist, suggested women should even kill men they believed were rapists: “Not the state, because I disagree with the death penalty … So I want women themselves (to kill).

“As a woman I’m asking, how many rapists must we kill until men stop raping us?”

A third panellist, feminist Jess Hill, defended Eltahawy’s call for murder: “I think if anyone is shocked by what Mona is suggesting, you just have to look back to history and a certain faction of the suffragettes in the earlier 20th century. They used violence.”

If that’s not incredible enough, the ABC had selected a fourth panellist who also defended political violence — Nayuka Gorrie, a race activist who identifies as Aboriginal.

In fact, Gorrie actually called for violence against non-Aboriginal Australians, who she claimed lacked morality and wanted to kill Aborigines: “We’ve tried for 230-plus years to appeal to the colonisers’ morality which doesn’t seem to exist …

“I think violence is OK because if someone is trying to kill you, there’s no amount of, ‘Oh, but I’m really clever’ … is going to save you, so, yeah, let’s burn stuff.”

And how did Fran Kelly respond to these calls for violence against an Australia variously described as anti-women, racist and murderous?

Like this: “That’s a really good moment to go to our next question.”

Kelly was too much a coward to confront them. Or is there a bigger picture? Is the ABC now so hostile to the Australian culture that it welcomes violence against it — if only to provoke a white backlash it can then denounce as “racist”?

In particular, does it kind-of want Aboriginal radicals to “burn stuff”?

Consider: in March, the final episode of the ABC’s _Get Krack!n_ comedy starred two Aboriginal actresses who screamed “Burn this place to the ground!” as they smashed the set.

One, ABC playwright Nakkiah Lui, shrieked “f--- whitey” and “I s--t on your colonisation” as she pretended to defecate on a cushion printed with a white woman’s face.

And last Sunday, the ABC kept that “burn stuff” meme going in the latest episode of _Total Control_, in which Deborah Mailman plays an Aboriginal politician confronting a white society that’s painted as vicious and racist.

Sunday’s episode ends with Mailman telling an Aboriginal man: “You’ve heard of divide and rule … They’ve been doing that to us for 200 years.”

Rome, she tells the man, was “burned to the ground”.

She then hands him a can of petrol and a lighter: “So why don’t you do what needs to be done and I swear on my mum’s grave, I will make the c---s pay.”

Is the ABC mad? Is it trying to stir up a race war?

Yes, I’m for free speech. I don’t want any of these women — note, they’re all women — banned or jailed.

But I certainly don’t want them given a platform, unchallenged, on a national broadcaster that I must pay for. Nor should Australians have to subsidise an ABC that broadcasts calls for the violent destruction of their society.

So when will the Morrison Government hold the ABC to account? Or defund a broadcaster that’s totally out of control?

276


----------



## sptrawler (7 November 2019)

It will be self resolving, when the majority are forced to accept extreme views  of minorities, in the end the minorities go too far and the majority reject their views. 
IMO the problem will be, a lot of the good work the left have done, will be thrown out with the bath water.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2019)

bigdog said:


> Todays Herald Sun
> 
> *Andrew Bolt: Calls for violence show ABC is out of control*
> You know the ABC has lost its impartiality when calls for political violence on a panel show go unchallenged. When will the Morrison Government hold the broadcaster to account, asks Andrew Bolt.
> ...




I didn't see that, I knew it was going to be a feminist whinge, but that is over the top.


Ita should be raked over the coals for allowing such a biased panel.


----------



## PZ99 (8 November 2019)

Sounds like a load of sensationalist bull to me.

Gimme a viewpoint from an unbiased broadcaster with credibility and I'll listen 

Couldn't care less what Andrew Bolt thinks.


----------



## wayneL (8 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Sounds like a load of sensationalist bull to me.
> 
> Gimme a viewpoint from an unbiased broadcaster with credibility and I'll listen
> 
> Couldn't care less what Andrew Bolt thinks.




So in other words, someone from the left?

It's not a beat up, free speech comes with the caveat that there is no call to violence. Whoever crosses that line should be called out. This panel was called out, plain and simple.


----------



## PZ99 (8 November 2019)

wayneL said:


> So in other words, someone from the left?
> 
> It's not a beat up, free speech comes with the caveat that there is no call to violence. Whoever crosses that line should be called out. This panel was called out, plain and simple.



Connecting "unbiased" with "someone from the left" is a pretty myopic viewpoint and merely adds to my claim about sensationalism. Thanks 

If the panel was called out, that's fine. It does not mean the ABC endorsed their views.

Sensationalists are better off taking aim at the true source of their grief.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 November 2019)

The ABC usually flogs excerpts of Q&A on their shows the day after , but I haven't seen any for this show.


----------



## PZ99 (8 November 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The ABC usually flogs excerpts of Q&A on their shows the day after , but I haven't seen any for this show.



There you go... non endorsement. 

It's probably because they are investigating if the content violated editorial standards


----------



## kahuna1 (8 November 2019)

Sky news ... Fox news here ...


----------



## wayneL (9 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> There you go... non endorsement.
> 
> It's probably because they are investigating if the content violated editorial standards



Yeah only after everyone in Australia (except the lunatic left complained about it).


----------



## qldfrog (9 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Sounds like a load of sensationalist bull to me.
> 
> Gimme a viewpoint from an unbiased broadcaster with credibility and I'll listen
> 
> Couldn't care less what Andrew Bolt thinks.



The real question is 
Are these facts or not, if these are facts which i truly believe they are, i have seen no denial, then there should be lawsuit engage in the same way there would be if a white supremacist were to say similar


----------



## wayneL (9 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> The real question is
> Are these facts or not, if these are facts which i truly believe they are, i have seen no denial, then there should be lawsuit engage in the same way there would be if a white supremacist were to say similar




Note the difference in treatment between these people and someone like Blair Cottrell. Cottrell had been pretty well behaved when on TV and hasn't said anything as radical, yet gets castigated and deplatformed.

One might not like what he purportedly stands for (and I think there is a difference to what he actually stands for and what he purportedly stands for), but he has not incited violence, as far as I know, on any TV program he has appeared on.

And just so no one gets the wrong idea I am not a follower of Cottrell, but believe he deserves a fair hearing just like anyone else, except of course if there is an incutement to violence.


----------



## bigdog (10 November 2019)

https://www.news.com.au/national/ab...e/news-story/873e5b6507bd77dfd121eb10d7e39b1a

*ABC pulls Q&A episode over provocative language after launching investigation*
An episode of Q&A has been pulled off all ABC platforms after complaints about high-profile feminists who “called for endorsed violence”.

The ABC has pulled an episode of Q&A from all its platforms, which featured panellists that “used offensive language and called for endorsed violence”.

Managing director David Anderson said the broadcaster would look into whether the program’s most recent episode, which aired on Monday and featured a panel of high-profile feminists, breached the broadcaster’s editorial standards.

Mr Anderson said the ABC acknowledged the program was provocative in regard to the language used and some of the views presented.

“Q&A has always sought to tackle difficult issues and present challenging and thought-provoking content,” he said.

“However, I can understand why some viewers found elements of this episode confronting or offensive.”


----------



## sptrawler (10 November 2019)

bigdog said:


> https://www.news.com.au/national/ab...e/news-story/873e5b6507bd77dfd121eb10d7e39b1a
> 
> *ABC pulls Q&A episode over provocative language after launching investigation*
> An episode of Q&A has been pulled off all ABC platforms after complaints about high-profile feminists who “called for endorsed violence”.
> ...




Priceless, just priceless.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 November 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Priceless, just priceless.




If the political Left were a stock then I'd say it's going through a blow off top amidst deteriorating fundamentals.

A spike in volume and the level of public attention.

Meanwhile deteriorating fundamentals with the election outcome, Labor reviewing their policies and so on meanwhile the general public seems to be more aware that outrage has become an industry of sorts in itself, thus making them less likely to be drawn into it.

Time will tell but my prediction is that this time next year we'll have seen a major change and a far more pragmatic approach being taken. Those inciting violence or taking offense for the sake of being offended will be cast off by those seeking actual progress.


----------



## kahuna1 (10 November 2019)

Tee hee ...

since I am about 40 years younger than most, consuming Fox news ... Or Sky seems to be the go for posters here .... maybe the white Australia policy still lives at Fox/ Sky news and their idiots here ?



PBS which in the USA is as moderate and fair as one gets. ...

ALL right wing hate.




Short memories of the right ?




Head dope at Fox .... same as Jones or that other idiot here at Sky Bolt ?

Maybe perception is not something that endures into old age ?

In 2018 in the USA not one single right wing killing spree ....

It thankfully is not here and ... sadly ... still alive it seems in some peoples minds.

73% of all mass homicides are by right wing extremists if one listens to the last one.

Lunatic right wing ? Or is it left ? In your mind ?

A Hoax according to Tucker from Fox ... need one be more deluded ? The Australian versions of it are NO DIFFERENT. If anything more delusional.


----------



## kahuna1 (10 November 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> In 2018 in the USA not one single right wing killing spree ....




I jest ...

ALL OF them 100% in 2018 were right wing nutjobs !! 

Every single one ... and we have Tucker crying about it being a hoax ? Or left wing actions ?

Same from Bolt and Jones here on Sky news.


----------



## sptrawler (10 November 2019)

I don't know about anyone else on here, but I gave up watching any news about 10 years ago, it all became a platform for journalists to pedal their beliefs no matter which bent they are.
As soon as it became 24/7 news coverage, anything remotely resembling news was gone. IMO


----------



## wayneL (10 November 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know about anyone else on here, but I gave up watching any news about 10 years ago, it all became a platform for journalists to pedal their beliefs no matter which bent they are.
> As soon as it became 24/7 news coverage, anything remotely resembling news was gone. IMO



Same here, and same with current affairs programs, 'cept when twitter goes off about something. I'll go and see the footage.

@Smurf1976 great analogy. I get the same feeling, and hope you're right.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 November 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Time will tell but my prediction is that this time next year we'll have seen a major change and a far more pragmatic approach being taken. Those inciting violence or taking offense for the sake of being offended will be cast off by those seeking actual progress.




I certainly agree with that. The outrage movement is wearing thin with voters who want a more mainstream approach.

Labor lost a lot of skin appealing to the fringes , although women in general are certainly not the fringes, the impression was that they were a protected species to Labor regardless of what they did or what their merits were compared to men. Likewise indigenous and LGBTI who certainly deserve to be heard but not when their message is drowning out those of the traditional Labor battlers trying to pay their mortgages, or finding a rental house they can afford while being trapped in insecure work and having the cost of essential services like power overwhelm them.

Let's face it, when you have the head of the Lefty ABC <sarcasm> say we are too politically correct then we know something is amiss. I think Albanese is waking up to the fact that Labor lost the centre ground when they started promoting the fringes.


----------



## PZ99 (10 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> The real question is
> Are these facts or not, if these are facts which i truly believe they are, i have seen no denial, then there should be lawsuit engage in the same way there would be if a white supremacist were to say similar



My argument isn't about whether they are facts or not.
The issue is the spurious claim the ABC endorsed the content when clearly they didn't.

Someone uses the "F" word or advocates killing a rapist therefore Bolt wants the ABC privatised.

And his followers go out of their way to be offended.

Sounds to me like they need to grow a pair


----------



## PZ99 (10 November 2019)

wayneL said:


> Same here, and same with current affairs programs, 'cept when twitter goes off about something.*
> 
> I'll go and see the footage.*



That would be a very good idea.



wayneL said:


> Yeah only after everyone in Australia (except the lunatic left complained about it).



I think most people couldn't give a crap about it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 November 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Labor lost a lot of skin appealing to the fringes , although women in general are certainly not the fringes, the impression was that they were a protected species to Labor regardless of what they did or what their merits were compared to men. Likewise indigenous and LGBTI




I think we're witnessing a much broader change than anyone could properly define at the moment.

I'll try though and call it the "back down to business" change.

On all manner of issues I think most had enough of the hand waving, ideology and inaction and what they want are practical, realistic ways forward even if they're imperfect.

People aren't stupid and reality is that anyone who's had any real life experience, from running a business to appearing in court to raising children to doing any sort of serious work to being in a long term relationship, will be well aware that reality always falls short of the theoretically perfect scenario and that what works is a pragmatic approach which finds a way forward that's imperfect but workable.

That's what governments need to do. Find ways forward which are imperfect but workable. Explain that sufficiently to the public and the overwhelming majority will be focused on the "workable" aspect rather than the "imperfect" bit since most people know full well that achieving perfection is rare.

At the political level we'll see a stronger government and a stronger opposition. If one side isn't up to it then they'll face the inevitable in 2022 but I think we'll see improvement from both sides.

I also think that will be reflected right here on this forum - I've made the prediction that the problem of "General Chat" posts dominating will go away and I see no reason to change it. That remains my prediction - as everyone gets back down to business that issue will resolve itself indeed there's already some progress so far as I can tell.


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2019)

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...e/news-story/7c300c71cc61fe6dc68076adb3fcec36
Hard to be more accurate
And actually nothing to really rejoice of, as a healthy sane alternative could really bring back the beauty of democracy, sensible responses to whistleblowers, or real environmental policies..but no, we got the new nazis vs extreme liberalism.
Anyway an article to the point


----------



## kahuna1 (11 November 2019)

I prefer this ...

How weak minded have their views made toxic, their beliefs delusional and become stupid people.

Worth listening for those who clearly digest a lot of media.

I cannot count how many delusional projections we have seen on this thread, worship of people who incite violence such as Alan Jones and his actions at Cronulla should have seen him banned for life. His mate at Sky Bolt and his anti immigrant .... anti Aboriginal and loosing like the fool he was in court on one case and having the judge lecture him .... let alone his most recent comments about Greta who whilst intense ... his comments about her medical condition make me hope he does not breed.



Whilst people go gee I am fair minded or my opinions are my own, clearly we have a lot of those which listen and listen a lot to single views and then claim they are not infected with dribble. The mere way any story is presented ... facts missing ... twisted or worst denials such as the SKY people do or Fox news and you end up stuffed.

USA in October 2019 processed ZERO refugee applications ... NOT A SINGLE ONE .... first time in 3000 years. France is taking back the statue of liberty.

Welcome to 1939 ... whoops 2019


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2019)

@kahuna1 while the title does lack the alliteral appeal of this threaf there is a thread for you postmodern types to shxtcan anyone to the right of Pol Pot here https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-lunatic-right.31649/

Let's keep it on topic here


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2019)

@kahuna1 while the title does lack the alliteral appeal of this threaf there is a thread for you postmodern types to shxtcan anyone to the right of Pol Pot here https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-lunatic-right.31649/

Let's keep it on topic here


----------



## kahuna1 (11 November 2019)

Perspective ....

Alan Jones inciting violence at Cronulla riots is NOT  FAR RIGHT compared to Pol Pot,

Bolt and his anti Immigration is compared to say Germany in 1938,  a left wing idiot in comparison.

It is on topic, depending where your perspective of Right and Left is.

Fox news Trump from time to time bitterly complains about its reporting and calls it fake news or far right !



America ... Australia from some peoples perspective is only for White only, christian .... non gay people. Anyone else is a far left lunatic ...

This is relevant to this thread, perspective. If your a right wing hate filled idiot everyone is far left.

If your Bolt and someone took objection to his anti gay, anti aboriginal or anti immigrant views and said so, he is still crying about that one .... I do hope he eats at a restaurant where the chef can make a special dish for him with the right ingredients. In his case, what my view is ... or leaning will always be far right compared to his void .... Fraser Anning same thing ... Alan Jones .... to be on a PAR ... maybe one needs to be Pol Pot or Idi Amin or Saddam on a bad day where he was doing genocide.

I thankfully will be far left of such people and despite being right wing ... you fall far short of the ideals of the people mentioned you lefties !!  

Embrace your intolerance and hate ...


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> Perspective ....
> 
> 
> Embrace your intolerance and hate ...



Indeed


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 November 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> I prefer this ...
> 
> How weak minded have their views made toxic, their beliefs delusional and become stupid people.
> 
> Worth listening for those who clearly digest a lot of media.




I'd speculate that realistically it applies to most of the population.

There's countless examples from the masses buying shares at the top through to all manner of dangerous or outright ridiculous things marketed as being safe and in some way desirable.

Then of course the big elephant in the room that few are willing to face - the impossibility of forever maintaining constant growth on a finite planet and the reality that even attempting to do so will absolutely trash the place as every possible resource is used up and turned to waste.  

One of the smartest moves you can make as an investor is to not follow the herd but to instead engage in independent research and thinking.


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> One of the smartest moves you can make as an investor is to not follow the herd but to instead engage in independent research and thinking.



I would fully disagree with you @Smurf, i have been in oz for 25plus years and investment wide, my mistakes have been not to follow the lemmings
Not buying overpriced unit 15y ago, not investing in a std industrial unit but going for a niche market, not investing in telstra shares( i was working in telco then and had a pretty accurate knowledge of the company real value), not buying more bitcoin you name it...
The recipe for success is to anticipate or join the lemmings early , and exit as early ...
Being right is useless


----------



## SirRumpole (11 November 2019)

Two interesting and diverse approaches from leFrog and Smurf, I can see merit in both of them in different circumstances.

Certainly buy when others are selling if you see value in the stock, but riding things like speculative mining shares and tech co's can be pretty profitable if as froggy says you know when to exit.

So I'd say you are both right .


----------



## kahuna1 (11 November 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'd speculate that realistically it applies to most of the population.




Most definitely to me !! Being stupid that is ...

I m aware of how little I knew ... or thought I did or actually think I know right now.

Right ...  left ... racist pus filled or delusional .... deny science ... hate another for their religion, color or sexual preference ... 

I know I am likely no better than they whom I deem to look down upon or those who I admire and look upwards at.


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2019)

Also smurf, I think it is only a matter of time before everyone calls out the left to come up with measurable and assessable answers to their arguments, at the moment they are an annoyance with their reactive ramblings.
It wont be long before someone say ffff it ok, what do you want, then they will become a blubbering pile of jello, because non of their ridiculous remedies are logical or achievable without social upheaval.
But they also want a social welfare blanket, so the least able to afford it can, when in reality most wont be able to afford their social agenda.
Intetesting times ahead, our industrialisation is heading to third world, our power is the most expensive and everyone says we dont give enough out .
I cant wait to see how it plays out, the first thing I would be demanding, is that all public service and politician pensions get converted to lump sum.
It would cost a bit but it would sort a lot of issues out Imo.


----------



## PZ99 (11 November 2019)

@sptrawler  I'm interested in your view about converting politician pensions to lump sum.

Is there a benefit ?

As for "we don't give enough out", it's times like this when I think our $10b overseas aid budget should be more dynamic and subject to our own needs such as drought relief and fire fighting


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2019)

I just think you hear heaps from ex politicians eg Hewson, Keating, Turnbull, Brown etc, I think they would all have a lot more to worry about than being sad ghosts, if they werent on the indexed public teat.
As for giving out, well it is all fine and good, untill you are in a position where you cant give any more. Then you start and really iron out who really needs it.
Just my opinion.
As for is there a saving, well I would think so, otherwise they wouldnt have changed it for the plebs. Lol
What is an ex PM on? I heard $300,000 indexed to inflation from 50 on, beautifull put me down for that.
Makes you wonder why more lawyers arent politicians, oh sorry forgot, they are.lol
Anyway not my problem, Im in Yokahama ATM, waiting for a cruise, Silly Billy tought me the error of my ways. Lol


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2019)

Enjoy Yokohama, 8 like that place, good climate size and friendly people


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I would fully disagree with you @Smurf, i have been in oz for 25plus years and investment wide, my mistakes have been not to follow the lemmings
> Not buying overpriced unit 15y ago, not investing in a std industrial unit but going for a niche market, not investing in telstra shares( i was working in telco then and had a pretty accurate knowledge of the company real value), not buying more bitcoin you name it...
> The recipe for success is to anticipate or join the lemmings early , and exit as early ...
> Being right is useless




I would argue that, if we take Bitcoin for example, the "mainstream" investor bought it when they heard about it on news.com.au and paid about $25,000 AUD. They are still holding it now at about half that price, safe in the knowledge that shares always go up (and blissfully unaware that Bitcoin isn't the same thing as a share).

Likewise they held their managed funds until the end of 2008 and sold out with the XJO around 3600. With so much bad news they decided it really wasn't a great time to be in shares. Now that it has almost doubled, they're thinking it might be safe to get back into shares and as "everyone knows", you can't time the market and there's no chance of picking the right stocks individually so they'll go with an index fund. 

As I see it, your statement "The recipe for success is to anticipate or join the lemmings early , and exit as early ..." means you aren't one of the mainstream. If you were then you'd wait for the price to go up and then buy and sell once it has gone down again, you wouldn't try and be earlier than everyone else.


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2019)

Definitively not mainstream, but now realising success is based not on knowledge of the sciences, technology, or even historic trends, but on learning the psychology of the masses and surfing their wave, need to start early but not first adopter as too risky
Interesting as well as the masses in the share market are not the average joe in the street, it is mostly employees of finance companies: funds, supers, o/s and a mix of self funded and richer persons
So not dumb in iq, but nevertheless following obsolete economic models, affected by fear and greed and usually technically and scientifically illiterate
So where can you find your edge...
If you do not think like the masses, you do not get average results, but that can hurt too


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2019)

But fully out of scope in this thread, my apologies


----------



## Miss Hale (14 November 2019)

wayneL said:


> Note the difference in treatment between these people and someone like Blair Cottrell. Cottrell had been pretty well behaved when on TV and hasn't said anything as radical, yet gets castigated and deplatformed.
> 
> One might not like what he purportedly stands for (and I think there is a difference to what he actually stands for and what he purportedly stands for), but he has not incited violence, as far as I know, on any TV program he has appeared on.
> 
> And just so no one gets the wrong idea I am not a follower of Cottrell, but believe he deserves a fair hearing just like anyone else, except of course if there is an incutement to violence.




Or Margaret Court. Just after the ABC had broadcast the rabid feminists saying they wanted to kill people and burn stuff, on the ABC radio breakfast show here in Melbourne they accused Margaret Court of hate speech because she doesn't agree with same sex marriage. So people advocating violence is allowed to go through to the keeper and someone who doesn't in any way advocate violence is supposed guilty of hate speech. The ABC is pathetic and so far up their own you know what they are totally oblivious to it.


----------



## qldfrog (14 November 2019)

As Basilio will point, abc is a saint and news corp evil
But the media is so left wing for anyone with a fair view that the following lpos is actually a news ltd journo
The left has no limit, no distortion of the truth is enough or jumping to conclusion fitting their view
At least the greens backed off
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...e/news-story/77cbbd720fb0807e127455a380a7b072


----------



## SirRumpole (14 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> As Basilio will point, abc is a saint and news corp evil
> But the media is so left wing for anyone with a fair view that the following lpos is actually a news ltd journo
> The left has no limit, no distortion of the truth is enough or jumping to conclusion fitting their view
> At least the greens backed off
> https://www.news.com.au/technology/...e/news-story/77cbbd720fb0807e127455a380a7b072




That woman should go and volunteer to be a firefighter so she can go home and beat her man up (if she has one).


----------



## basilio (14 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> As Basilio will point, abc is a saint and news corp evil
> But the media is so left wing for anyone with a fair view that the following lpos is actually a news ltd journo
> The left has no limit, no distortion of the truth is enough or jumping to conclusion fitting their view
> At least the greens backed off
> https://www.news.com.au/technology/...e/news-story/77cbbd720fb0807e127455a380a7b072




That was a really interesting story when you read through to the end.
 I hadn't thought about it before but the absolute trauma emergency service workers could go through would have a PTSD effect on a number of them.  The consequences of that could easily be acting out/violence/whatever. I was just thinking about some of the  ambies I have known who have been affected.

The story made it clear that this is fact happened. I can understand people feeling tetchy about the observation and perhaps it should have been said in another way.
 In fact of course the writer did qualify the statement heavily - but to no avail.

_The post was inundated with vitriolic comments directed at Moody, however some agreed, with Lisa Love saying "this is an important conversation to have."

"All too often the brave emergency services people, who are absolute hero's walk away without adequate support. Many of them end up with ptsd," she wrote.

"It's not all of them and it's not limited to them, but it's a fact that after these catastrophic disasters the incidents of domestic violence rise significantly. If we can't talk about this then there will be no awareness and nothing will be done to help anyone."

Another commenter, Alison Mayer, recalled how her father developed a temper after helping defend homes on Ash Wednesday.

"It was like living on a volcano with no seismic monitoring equipment. His reactions were disproportionate, cruel, and baffling," she said.

"It was not until I began experiencing PTSD from Black Saturday that I began to imagine PTSD might have changed him."
_
Consider another totally obvious example. After the wars many men came home , our heroes, severely traumatised.  The suicides, depressions,   family abuse , alcohol abuse are well documented.  There is little difference between their experience and some emergency services personnel.


----------



## Klogg (14 November 2019)

basilio said:


> That was a really interesting story when you read through to the end.
> I hadn't thought about it before but the absolute trauma emergency service workers could go through would have a PTSD effect on a number of them.  The consequences of that could easily be acting out/violence/whatever. I was just thinking about some of the  ambies I have known who have been affected.
> 
> The story made it clear that this is fact happened. I can understand people feeling tetchy about the observation and perhaps it should have been said in another way.
> ...




I'm sorry, did you just compare someone who was paid to kill people, against someone who is paid to provide emergency services?

All of the above are tough jobs, much tougher than mine by a long shot - so I hold them in the highest regard. But anyone who is paid to kill is far more vulnerable to those mental issues you mentioned. Surely you can see that?


----------



## wayneL (14 November 2019)

Also, I believe that the study quoted did not specifically mention firefighters just people who had been involved with firestorms. it was jumping the f****** shark to conflate the domestic violence with the actual firefighters.

Toxic.


----------



## qldfrog (14 November 2019)

wayneL said:


> Also, I believe that the study quoted did not specifically mention firefighters just people who had been involved with firestorms. it was jumping the f****** shark to conflate the domestic violence with the actual firefighters.
> 
> Toxic.



Exactly, that was my mention on twisting to fit view
Basically people loosing their home or at risk are edgy and domestic violence can flare, but firefighters were not mentioned..but nothing can stop a good male bashing story
Males can not be heros, or kind, or worth of becoming ceo..unless gay or maybe transgender of course

It is really incredible
As i said, at least the Greens backed off, but still this is the type of rubbish you vote for when voting far left..


----------



## PZ99 (15 November 2019)

I think jumping the f****** shark is this strange compulsion to link any toxic comments with a political persuasion. 

ie: Misandry = far left and misogyny = far right 

That is w-a-a-a-a-y too simplistic but it partially demonstrates why the debate around SSM was nothing short of prepubescent


----------



## wayneL (15 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I think jumping the f****** shark is this strange compulsion to link any toxic comments with a political persuasion.
> 
> ie: Misandry = far left and misogyny = far right
> 
> That is w-a-a-a-a-y too simplistic but it partially demonstrates why the debate around SSM was nothing short of prepubescent




Oh come on! The Greens would be at 0.5% (where they belong) if they didn't package up all the woke crap with the Maoist economics.


----------



## basilio (15 November 2019)

Klogg said:


> I'm sorry, did you just compare someone who was paid to kill people, against someone who is paid to provide emergency services?
> 
> All of the above are tough jobs, much tougher than mine by a long shot - so I hold them in the highest regard. But anyone who is paid to kill is far more vulnerable to those mental issues you mentioned. Surely you can see that?




Hang back mate. That's way over the top.
We don't define people people in the armed forces as "anyone paid to kill".  Full stop.
In war time everyone with a pulse was drafted if they couldn't get some exemption. Not all were front line soldiers. Many were support. They were our parents, grand parents uncles and even aunts.
They defended our country.  (_Perhaps they also attacked other countries ?_)

They saw horrors. Some killed other people. Many were injured physically and mentally.
Many came back totally traunmatized.  Think shell shock, PTSD.

The traumas of war are echoed in the traumas of emergency service workers. Facing death, facing disaster, coping with the loss of  friends , colleagues.The psychological consequences are similar. 

The reality of domestic violence as one these consequences  when people lash out is just that. 

https://at-ease.dva.gov.au/professi...ice-book/12-impact-veterans-experiences-their


----------



## PZ99 (15 November 2019)

wayneL said:


> Oh come on! The Greens would be at 0.5% (where they belong) if they didn't package up all the woke crap with the Maoist economics.



Who cares what the Greens hook up with? It has zip to do with the point.

It's the absence of logic used by the twitt/book devotees when they attach a political label to every event in the universe including race, sex, religion or in this case domestic violence.

Domestic violence, and the condemning thereof, is irrelevant to a political persuasion.

PS > I noticed that Sherele Moody has copped death threats for her comments.

Do we automatically assume that it's coming from the right given their recent record of violence ?


----------



## Logique (15 November 2019)

In respect of wildfire management, the Greens aren't the solution, they are the problem.

They are well aware that they get hammered after every fire season for their resistance to winter time fuel management burning. Solution, easy, get on the front foot with a media campaign to brainwash the public to the idea that climate change is the culprit.

So now its a regime of massively hot, ecologically damaging, fiscally crippling emergency bushfires based on the huge fuel loads.

To their credit WA have seen the light, and wound back the clock to the effective, less ecologically damaging, less financially crippling management practices of the 1970s and 80s.

It's not just the Greens who are to blame. Plenty who are in on the scam, from government agencies, to pollies, to media, to research academics.

Just how much do people think it costs to hire the fleet of helicopters and fixed wing water bombers that seem _de rigeur_ at every bushfire nowadays?


----------



## chiff (15 November 2019)

Logique said:


> In respect of wildfire management, the Greens aren't the solution, they are the problem.
> 
> They are well aware that they get hammered after every fire season for their resistance to winter time fuel management burning. Solution, easy, get on the front foot with a media campaign to brainwash the public to the idea that climate change is the culprit.
> 
> ...



Do you think that climate change has a leading role in these wildfires?We were always taught, or informed, that in southern Australia  fires invariably started in late summer ,usually from late January.And that they started after noon when the fuel had time to dry out.This seemed to hold true until the last few years.


----------



## wayneL (15 November 2019)

chiff said:


> Do you think that climate change has a leading role in these wildfires?We were always taught, or informed, that in southern Australia  fires invariably started in late summer ,usually from late January.And that they started after noon when the fuel had time to dry out.This seemed to hold true until the last few years.



Yeahbut... Green activists are seeing an advantage in starting them earlier


----------



## Logique (15 November 2019)

chiff said:


> Do you think that climate change has a leading role in these wildfires?We were always taught, or informed, that in southern Australia  fires invariably started in late summer ,usually from late January.And that they started after noon when the fuel had time to dry out.This seemed to hold true until the last few years.



I'm only saying, in Eastern Australia a severe bushfire season comes along every 15-20 years.

How damaging the season is, depends on a variety of factors, including weather patterns, ignition sources (eg lightning, farm machinery, motor bikes, arson), and fuel quantity and dryness.

But the least of these factors, is a fraction of a degree up or down, depending upon whether we de-industrialize Australia and make electricity more expensive. This is the essential dishonesty and opportunism of the Greens, and those old buffer retirees on the TV atm.

What those old buffer retirees on the TV are doing, is cottoning on to the 'Tuvalu method' for extracting guilt money for a pet cause. That is, give us more money or there'll be a climate catastrophe..


----------



## chiff (15 November 2019)

Logique said:


> I'm only saying, in Eastern Australia a severe bushfire season comes along every 15-20 years.
> 
> How damaging the season is, depends on a variety of factors, including weather patterns, ignition sources (eg lightning, farm machinery, motor bikes, arson), and fuel quantity and dryness.
> 
> ...



I probably do not listen or watch enough because I do not know what the Greens are saying?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 November 2019)

chiff said:


> I probably do not listen or watch enough because I do not know what the Greens are saying?




Neither do they !


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 November 2019)

On the subject of busfires there's a few things of relevance I think.

Actual changes in the climate are one.

Year to year variation in the weather is another.

Changes in management practices driven by politics or the culture of litigation are another. 40 years ago if there was smoke then close the window. These days people see $$$ in their eyes and ponder if they can sue someone for burning off or whatever. Either that or there's a pile of paperwork to complete and by the time that's done the opportunity to burn off has passed.

The law of unintended consequences is another. For example councils have introduced all manner of restrictions on felling or even trimming trees in urban areas which didn't used to be the case. Now have a look at the data and for where I am at least it's pretty clear that the tree coverage across the municipality is going down not up, exactly what one would expect given the existence of laws which make any large tree a nightmare to deal with. Sure they discourage unnecessary felling but they also ensure that nobody plants new trees. So slowly but surely we end up with unsafe trees right next to houses which aren't allowed to be removed meanwhile nobody plants new trees in sensible places lest they become an unremovable liability.

Finally there's the media reporting with its constant sensationalism of even the most mundane thing. We're at the point where someone's clothes line falls over and the media reports it as a major structural collapse. Well technically it is a structural collapse yes but that's just getting a bit silly. It's not as though there haven't been fires previously and let's keep it in perspective. 4 deaths thus far from the current fires in NSW versus 173 dead from the Black Saturday fires in Victoria in 2009, 75 deaths across Victoria and SA from the Ash Wednesday fires of 1983 and 62 deaths in the Tasmanian fire disaster of 1967 with those three disasters each unfolding in a matter of hours. Listening to the media reports though, you could be excused for thinking the current situation was the worst disaster in Australian history.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 November 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's not as though there haven't been fires previously and let's keep it in perspective. 4 deaths thus far from the current fires in NSW versus 173 dead from the Black Saturday fires in Victoria in 2009, 75 deaths across Victoria and SA from the Ash Wednesday fires of 1983 and 62 deaths in the Tasmanian fire disaster of 1967 with those three disasters each unfolding in a matter of hours. Listening to the media reports though, you could be excused for thinking the current situation was the worst disaster in Australian history.




Well, the other side is that the fires are across 3 States with WA being the latest affected, so while thankfully the death toll has reduced from those you mentioned the fires are more widespread. Your point about weather vs climate is a good one though, when does one run into the other ?

I'd say probably after about three years if the trend continues or worsens then we can say it's not just weather. I think that point has been reached.


----------



## Value Collector (15 November 2019)

Klogg said:


> I'm sorry, did you just compare someone who was paid to kill people, against someone who is paid to provide emergency services?
> 
> All of the above are tough jobs, much tougher than mine by a long shot - so I hold them in the highest regard. But anyone who is paid to kill is far more vulnerable to those mental issues you mentioned. Surely you can see that?




do you really think PTSD is limited to people who are paid to kill people? 

it’s not that simple at all, I have several mates that deal with ptsd to varying degrees who never had to kill people, but who’s jobs involved searching for IEDs, prolonged stress and pressure of trying to save people can be even more stressful that killing some one.


----------



## Humid (15 November 2019)

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/unc...249549293&mc_cid=8513b863fc&mc_eid=3ecbe70661


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 November 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, the other side is that the fires are across 3 States with WA being the latest affected, so while thankfully the death toll has reduced from those you mentioned the fires are more widespread.




I'm not suggesting that it isn't a bad situation, just that there's more to it than any one factor.

Eg how the media reports it is one thing that will change over time. What people perceive as "too dangerous to stay" is another that will have changed over time. How well houses are prepared for fire is another as is burning off and so on. Then things like is the fire somewhere near water or not? That will affect the ability to deal with it. etc.

So I'm seeing that it's one of those things where a direct "apples with apples" comparison is difficult given the number of factors involved. It's hard to isolate the different factors and say what's due to this one and what's due to that one?


----------



## SirRumpole (16 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> do you really think PTSD is limited to people who are paid to kill people?
> 
> it’s not that simple at all, I have several mates that deal with ptsd to varying degrees who never had to kill people, but who’s jobs involved searching for IEDs, prolonged stress and pressure of trying to save people can be even more stressful that killing some one.




Apparently cancer specialists have one of the highest rates of ptsd among the professionals. Having people rely on them to save their lives and not being able to do so in some cases even though they have success in others would knaw away at those who care about what they are doing.


----------



## qldfrog (16 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I think jumping the f****** shark is this strange compulsion to link any toxic comments with a political persuasion.
> 
> ie: Misandry = far left and misogyny = far right
> 
> That is w-a-a-a-a-y too simplistic but it partially demonstrates why the debate around SSM was nothing short of prepubescent



Much appreciate being pointed out as a complete idiot to hint that a lady doing male bashing running her DV agenda in a released speech next to a green leader can be assumed as left wing
Sorry she is probably voting LNP or one nation.after all, she is a news limited journo.
My apologies to all NOT.. disappointed @PZ99


----------



## Logique (16 November 2019)

I reached the same conclusion. Actually more and more women are volunteering in fire brigades. I wonder if that lady thinks their husbands ought to tremble when the wives get home from the fire front


----------



## qldfrog (16 November 2019)

Should we open a new thread on the bushfires? @Joe Blow 
I suspect this will have major economic consequences
Obviously, insurances, construction, an expected GDP boost..
I know but remember the best GDP is achieved with terminally ill people spending years in intensive units..
I expect some more red green tape counter intuitive but my expectation in Australia 2019
And money for class actions so law firms.


----------



## Joe Blow (16 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Should we open a new thread on the bushfires? @Joe Blow
> I suspect this will have major economic consequences
> Obviously, insurances, construction, an expected GDP boost..
> I know but remember the best GDP is achieved with terminally ill people spending years in intensive units..
> ...




Sure. Feel free to start a new thread.


----------



## basilio (16 November 2019)

_The question of hazard-reduction burns raised its head often.

“They’re saying it’s the Greenies stopping us from doing these hazard-reduction burns,” one firefighter says. “It’s the lack of xxxking resources and people to do it.

“No one joins up until the sxit hits the fan.”

Munns, too, says it had simply been “too dry” to burn off during the winter.

“It was a very, very tight window,” he says. “And then in the small window we had we got a tiny, tiny bit of rain, which ruined us because then it was too wet to do any burning._

“There’s one thing that’s going to stop all of this. It’s called rain.”

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...l-of-fire-the-biggest-flames-i-have-ever-seen


----------



## qldfrog (16 November 2019)

basilio said:


> _The question of hazard-reduction burns raised its head often.
> 
> “They’re saying it’s the Greenies stopping us from doing these hazard-reduction burns,” one firefighter says. “It’s the lack of xxxking resources and people to do it.
> 
> ...



On fires
A bit of the lunatic left: yes there are pressure from the greens and a green tape
1)
I am forbidden legally by council to cut any tree on my small farm big block unless it represents an immediate..aka not fire..danger to property..so no clearing legally..as
many i do it, and cut regrowth along fire breaks etc but very selective
But more and more people are moving in the area
My house is 40+y old, there was a bushfire 30+ y ago and house survived no problem.
i bought the place 20y ago and asked, as a member of the rfb, to do a controlled burn.was told then that as new houses had pop up on the other side of the mountain, we are not allowed anymore, that was 20y ago, 9 neighbours added in the last 5y, it is a disaster in waiting, fuel load atrocious, will reach canopy 
I am confident in my place and ability to defend if present, but it will be horrendous when it happens
With sheoaks and banksia on the ridge, no need for climate change to know it is supposed to burn in the area yet it is ignored
So just to say population growth, corruption for development, stupid council regulation and added human sheer stupidity which can always surprise...i believe the green belt around our cities is in for a rude shock,remember Dandenong fires not so long ago
 So greens are not the only one to blame we all agree if reasonable
Add as well volunteering dropping
In the rfb, i spent 4 months every week in formal h&s training, a waste of money and time  to end up being treated as **** by some of the community
Free labour...
So not an active rfb member anymore. 
beings employed, a day fighting a fire was costing me 1 k so that a developer could bulldoze its estate more easily..last drop before leaving

So , over regulation, greentape, red tape, self entitlement, personal cost with no recognitions, liabilities
Summarise most of the problems in Australia  doesn't it
I forgot co2 and domestic violence, or my skin colour but some did not forget....


----------



## macca (16 November 2019)

Hi QF

Yep, all true, I quite often shake my head when they put photos of burnt out houses in the media.

Houses built on top of escarpments, might as well build on the top of a chimney.

Houses with trees hanging over the roof lines, gutters full of leaves and debris waiting to be lit from flying sparks.

Yesterday I drove through a hilly area which backs on to native bush, there were many houses with roof valleys that had a metre or three of dead leaves etc just lying there waiting for the next bush fire in that native bush area.

Looking at the bush I would estimate about 10-15 years since it went up, no reduction recently. lots and lots of rubbish in between the trees.

No doubt, when (not if) it goes up it will take a few houses with it and of course that will be climate change won't it.

In reality it is stupidity but who takes the blame for a local situation they created, oh no not us


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 November 2019)

macca said:


> Houses with trees hanging over the roof lines, gutters full of leaves and debris waiting to be lit from flying sparks.




Around here the regulations are that trees within 10 meters of a house can be remove or pruned unless they're a willow or eucalypt in which case you're stuck with them unless you're willing to spend $$$ and jump through all the hoops. Not impossible but a barrier to removal in practice.

Thankfully we all know that gum trees are among the least hazardous trees and don't burn or anything like that, thus making them a good choice of species to have right next to a house. 

Not to worry though, the council thoughtfully sends out notices reminding everyone of the importance of fire safety. It mentions all the sensible things apart from the obvious about trees overhanging houses not being a good idea. 

I'm in favour of having sensibly selected trees but that doesn't mean great big gum trees right next to someone's house with limbs overhanging the entire structure. That's just being silly.


----------



## qldfrog (16 November 2019)

macca said:


> Hi QF
> 
> Yep, all true, I quite often shake my head when they put photos of burnt out houses in the media.
> 
> ...



Where was it by interest?


----------



## macca (16 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Where was it by interest?




The ones I know for sure have been in the Blue Mtns but here is one in QLD, Binna Burra Lodge which burnt down.

It has been there for decades, it seems rather odd that now that we have huge aircraft and lots of whiz bang equipment to fight fires with, it gets burnt down. 

We have had plenty of droughts in the time that the building has been there so it is not just the dry weather.

In the past fires were fought with knapsacks and fire beaters, perhaps they were a bit more cautious or perhaps they just got lazy, what else could it be ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...na-burra-lodge-gold-coast-hinterland/11489860


----------



## qldfrog (16 November 2019)

macca said:


> The ones I know for sure have been in the Blue Mtns but here is one in QLD, Binna Burra Lodge which burnt down.
> 
> It has been there for decades, it seems rather odd that now that we have huge aircraft and lots of whiz bang equipment to fight fires with, it gets burnt down.
> 
> ...



Binna burra lodge and adjoining propertis were burn in a fire started by teenagers,since  known and "cautioned" by police...lalaland it is..
if you consider that our population has doubled since 1972, there will be probably twice as many fire started than then by crazy or negligent people, and more and more australians are living in cities/suburbs with no clues about basically fire, even not wild ones
it would be good to have some data matching this drought to the confederation drought, how bad is this one vs a century ago
lastly photos from my local area in the 1950 show it deforested with agricultural plantations or dairies, now it is endless trees with buildings inter-seeded , one of the beauty of living here, but a risk too


----------



## Logique (17 November 2019)

National Parks NSW quite rightly say, their ranger numbers are steadily falling, as the governments of all stripes slash departmental budgets. So who is there with the experience and expertise to plan and approve natural area hazard reduction. This is quite apart from the philosophical issues within that department.

But it's false economy. Look at the cash the State blows on summer bushfires. And they say yachting is like standing in a shower, ripping up $100 dollar bills! The yachties have got nothing on the General Napoleons of the NSW Rural Fire Service! 

As has been said, local governments need to be accountable as well, with new subdivisions and building approvals still happening in some very bushfire hazardous places.

On reflection, it's not really an exclusively Left wing issue


----------



## Knobby22 (17 November 2019)

Logique said:


> On reflection, it's not really an exclusively Left wing issue




Hooray! So easy for the media and government to call an issue Left Wing so they can hide their incompetence and inaction. Much easier than actually doing something.


----------



## qldfrog (17 November 2019)

Yeap, not only left wing but when you see the usual culprits linking global warming, white blaming/colonisation and even DV to this natural event amplified by incompetence, blood is boiling
Some interesting searches on drought, the 2000 ones and the big federation one "
During the drought, the wheat crop was "all but lost", and the Darling River was dry at Bourke, New South Wales, for over a year, from April 1902 to May 1903. "
Cycle of drought is around 14 to 18y, and has been so since records started in the 1800 so there is a strong possibility we are in for a nasty year or 2.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 November 2019)

To be honest I’m a bit fed up with hearing that this, that or something else has to change because of population growth.

If the powers that be are insistent on constant growth then either build the infrastructure required to maintain an unchanged lifestyle without all these trade offs or put a stop to the whole ponzi scheme of pretending that constant growth won’t ultimately consume literally everything.

If the Left wants something to oppose then this growth obsession would surely be at or near top of the list. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-17/how-skyscrapers-are-reshaping-australian-suburbs/11697614


----------



## qldfrog (17 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Hooray! So easy for the media and government to call an issue Left Wing so they can hide their incompetence and inaction. Much easier than actually doing something.



We will agree, but left policies in teem of regrowth clearing laws have a lot to be blamed in the country, around NP and suburbs, i think gov overall have a lot to be answered so yes not only the leftist..


----------



## Knobby22 (17 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> We will agree, but left policies in teem of regrowth clearing laws have a lot to be blamed in the country, around NP and suburbs, i think gov overall have a lot to be answered so yes not only the leftist..



As Logique said, cutback to management  budgets, less rangers, not enough fire fighting resources  etc. Liberal Government in control at both State and Federally in NSW.

Who cares about Green policies? There not in control. The buck stops with them.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Who cares about Green policies? There not in control. The buck stops with them.



Playing the devil's advocate here.....

The Greens have never formed majority government and in most states have not formed part of a minority government. 

I'm pretty sure though that if someone asked the Greens for a list of their achievements then it wouldn't be a blank page. Rather, they'd claim to have lobbied or otherwise persuaded one or both of the major parties to do whatever.

Now you can't really claim to be lobbying others and getting them to do what you want whilst also claiming to not be able to influence anything. That's in the same category as claiming credit for the new building going up but saying it was nothing to do with you when it fell down. Either you're responsible for it or you're not.

I don't know the truth about any role they've had regarding fires but I do see a definite inconsistency between claims of having achieved this and that versus claims of not being in government therefore unable to do anything.


----------



## qldfrog (17 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> As Logique said, cutback to management  budgets, less rangers, not enough fire fighting resources  etc. Liberal Government in control at both State and Federally in NSW.
> 
> Who cares about Green policies? There not in control. The buck stops with them.



I have to state my knowledge is only valid for Qld with one of the worst government we have had, labour included
But a great girlfriends club in power


----------



## PZ99 (17 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Much appreciate being pointed out as a complete idiot to hint that a lady doing male bashing running her DV agenda in a released speech next to a green leader can be assumed as left wing
> Sorry she is probably voting LNP or one nation.after all, she is a news limited journo.
> My apologies to all NOT.. disappointed @PZ99



Why not just call it for what it really was instead of politicising it for the sake of nothing ?
You could have just as easily labelled it as far right - it would've been just as accurate.

If apoliticism is a crime in the zettabyte era then PZ99 is guilty as charged so I guess that's too bad.

And I don't think you're an idiot either.


----------



## Humid (17 November 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Playing the devil's advocate here.....
> 
> The Greens have never formed majority government and in most states have not formed part of a minority government.
> 
> ...




Last time I checked it’s called democracy


----------



## chiff (18 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Yeap, not only left wing but when you see the usual culprits linking global warming, white blaming/colonisation and even DV to this natural event amplified by incompetence, blood is boiling
> Some interesting searches on drought, the 2000 ones and the big federation one "
> During the drought, the wheat crop was "all but lost", and the Darling River was dry at Bourke, New South Wales, for over a year, from April 1902 to May 1903. "
> Cycle of drought is around 14 to 18y, and has been so since records started in the 1800 so there is a strong possibility we are in for a nasty year or 2.



Before the weirs and locks came on the River Murray there were periods when one could walk across the river.I think they were introduced about 1920  or around that.I guess that the same thing happened on the Darling-there was nothing to stop the flow draining  away.


----------



## qldfrog (18 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Why not just call it for what it really was instead of politicising it for the sake of nothing ?
> You could have just as easily labelled it as far right - it would've been just as accurate.
> 
> If apoliticism is a crime in the zettabyte era then PZ99 is guilty as charged so I guess that's too bad.
> ...




We will agree to disagree
Her speech was done next to Larissa Water? from memory, green politician.it is politically charged IMHO


----------



## PZ99 (18 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> We will agree to disagree
> Her speech was done next to Larissa Water? from memory, green politician.it is politically charged IMHO



No worries mate. I take the view if the same speech was done next to a conservative/right it would've been immune from their criticism


----------



## qldfrog (18 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> No worries mate. I take the view if the same speech was done next to a conservative/right it would've been immune from their criticism



But not from mine believe me.


----------



## qldfrog (18 November 2019)

chiff said:


> Before the weirs and locks came on the River Murray there were periods when one could walk across the river.I think they were introduced about 1920  or around that.I guess that the same thing happened on the Darling-there was nothing to stop the flow draining  away.



True, still be interesting to compare with that drought but i could not find figures.to be honest was just a google search for 40s


----------



## Logique (21 November 2019)

It is not 'Climate Change' that our gullible young people need to fear.
If they only knew, the extent to which they are being exploited. Appalling that both the schools and the national broadcaster are complicit in this! Essential reading







> *Their holy mission is to use the coercive power of the State*: November 21, 2019 by Steve Kates: Catallaxy Files: http://catallaxyfiles.com/2019/11/21/their-holy-mission-is-to-use-the-coercive-power-of-the-state/
> ...observing at close quarters our friends on the left. They are in a *constant state of self-righteous fury*. They are like old Testament prophets who rage against the evils of the world. It is a disposition that is inlaid, they are always on the lookout for some evil to correct...
> ...it is the Left that is engaged in the *systematic shredding of norms* and the *undermining of the rule of law*...[\QUOTE]


----------



## kahuna1 (21 November 2019)

*Trump's Faith Advisor Paula White Is Now a White House Staffer*



I listened to this person and ... exploited and delusional come to mind.

Not sure what side of the fence she is ?  Possibly she had it impale her mind ?


----------



## basilio (21 November 2019)

Logique said:


> It is not 'Climate Change' that our gullible young people need to fear.
> If they only knew, the extent to which they are being exploited. Appalling that both the schools and the national broadcaster are complicit in this! Essential reading



What *really*, really  concerns me is the fact that many seemingly intelligent people read this unhinged, poisonous rubbish and believe it.


----------



## kahuna1 (21 November 2019)

I read this thread .... and comments on climate issues and shake my head.

I find this illuminating.

*97% of Climate Scientists Really Do Agree*


----------



## basilio (21 November 2019)

I thought it was interesting when someone decided to explore how many scientists expressed specific belief in plate tectonics when describing geological activity in their papers.

Turned out bugger all.  Plate tectonics must be a hoax what !


----------



## wayneL (24 December 2019)

Moonbattery from the Moonbat.

It's the Russians!!!!


----------



## basilio (24 December 2019)

Well that was a very insightful understanding of how politics is happening around the world.

Thanks Wayne . Much appreciated.


----------



## wayneL (10 February 2020)




----------



## PZ99 (10 February 2020)

wayneL said:


>




Can't play the vid so not sure what the point is - are they saying a 4 day work week is bad or something ?


----------



## wayneL (10 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Can't play the vid so not sure what the point is - are they saying a 4 day work week is bad or something ?



Well, AOC's understanding of economics is a joke, but:

Milton Friedman was an Economist, as was John Maynard Keynes. however I don't even think Dr Frankenstein could cobble up a composite of the two, even given modern medical technology.

Milton Keynes is a town in The Old Dart


----------



## moXJO (10 February 2020)

AOC is a certified idiot.


----------



## wayneL (14 February 2020)




----------



## IFocus (14 February 2020)

wayneL said:


>





It would be the same answer as Bolts climate model


----------



## Humid (15 February 2020)

“The right is strategically rethinking its position on climate change. Keep an eye out for the spin.”


----------



## wayneL (15 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> It would be the same answer as Bolts climate model



What climate model would that be?

What is a climate model in terms of economics? Can you point me to a successful "climate model" in terms of economics, that has been successful, and perhaps one that has failed like all socialist models?


----------



## orr (15 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> What climate model would that be?
> 
> What is a climate model in terms of economics? Can you point me to a successful "climate model" in terms of economics, that has been successful, and perhaps one that has failed like all socialist models?



So if there is one socialist model that's a succsess? your arguement is 'murde'?
Take your 'bat and ball'... have to go and have a rethink?


----------



## wayneL (15 February 2020)

orr said:


> So if there is one socialist model that's a succsess? your arguement is 'murde'?
> Take your 'bat and ball'... have to go and have a rethink?



I'm all ears b-orr-e.

And I still want to know what a climate model is is relation to economic systems.

Anyone?


----------



## basilio (16 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> I'm all ears b-orr-e.
> 
> And I still want to know what a climate model is is relation to economic systems.
> 
> Anyone?




If we don't have a safe climate that enables  current human activity as we know it we won't have an economic system.
Conversely if we continue with a economic system that destroys the basis of a safe climate we won't have an economic system.


----------



## orr (16 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> I'm *all ears* b-orr-e.
> 
> And I still want to know what a climate model is is relation to economic systems.
> 
> Anyone?



all ears? you makes us laugh.
You are amongst  the more closed minded I've encountered. 

A collectively owned asset managed successfully to the befit of the collective. Accruing  now for a proven period of over 30years to a value in excess of a Trillion US$. 
It's The Norwegian Sovereign Wealth/pension Fund.
Obviously under your radar; as is so much else.
As to your last display of Total ignorance as to climate modeling see. Nicholas Stern report to the UK government 2006.

now off with your bat and ball.


----------



## moXJO (16 February 2020)

Immigration will destroy their models. There is also a difference between 'Democratic socialism' and something under a more authoritarian rule.

But like I said mass immigration is about to destroy socialism, or increase xenophobia.


----------



## IFocus (16 February 2020)

No argument over Bolts economic model of monetising total BS and get sheep rabib about invisible enemies and climate. 

"And I still want to know what a climate model is is relation to economic systems"

Your question is makes no sense.


----------



## wayneL (16 February 2020)

orr said:


> all ears? you makes us laugh.
> You are amongst  the more closed minded I've encountered.
> 
> A collectively owned asset managed successfully to the befit of the collective. Accruing  now for a proven period of over 30years to a value in excess of a Trillion US$.
> ...



You are such a buffoon B-orr-e. Norway is mixed economy which relies on capitalistic aspects.

A climate model is not an economic system, even if an economic system may attempt to regard one.

These truths are self evident.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 February 2020)

Humid said:


> “The right is strategically rethinking its position on climate change. Keep an eye out for the spin.”




The Right is rethinking on climate change and the Greens have completely reversed their original attitude toward heavy industry, manufacturing etc.

My view is the same in both cases. If someone improves then there's no need to play politics and argue about a "back flip" since doing so simply becomes a barrier to progress. The surest way to stop someone changing their approach is to attack them for doing so - that they were wrong previously is best left unsaid.


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2020)

Spot on smurf, way too much tribalism, my party has all the answers.
If that was true, it would be easy.


----------



## macca (16 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on smurf, way too much tribalism, my party has all the answers.
> If that was true, it would be easy.




This touches on something I find rather irritating.........

In todays society it seems we are no longer allowed to question anyone's statements, there is very little banter, bull**** or otherwise, "Gees mate, I dunno, I reckon life would be tough without any metals" just about starts a war

As I understand it, it is considered passive aggressive if I ask for further information on any statement. 

At a family gathering CC and how awful the west was got an airing for discussion, as the topic was discussed I asked a very green member of my family, very anti mining but coal in particular, "what would her life be like without metals"

I suggested no phone, no electricity, no car, no oil or by products etc etc, it seems I was just being a smart ass and it became rather obvious that, that particular group had never really thought about the end result of banning coal.

I guess 30secs snippets of "in depth news" do not have time to include facts


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2020)

So true Macca, I was out for dinner with an old ex workmate and his wife, self made millionaires but started from nothing.
Anyway the subject got to CC and he starts on the coal is bad shut it down tomorrow stuff, which is a bit weird because he worked in the control room of a power station, anyway I blotted my copy book.
I said how come at 8o odd years old you build a McMansion, three stories, parking for 6 cars?
Well the volume went through the roof then, and the wives called it a night.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (16 February 2020)

https://summit.news/2020/02/13/camb...-race-must-become-extinct-to-save-the-planet/

*Cambridge Academic Says Human Race Must Become Extinct to Save the Planet*
And white men are first to go, obviously


----------



## Humid (16 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on smurf, way too much tribalism, my party has all the answers.
> If that was true, it would be easy.




You voted Libs since Hawke lol


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2020)

Humid said:


> You voted Libs since Hawke lol



And you still don't know why you vote.
You may as well have a rubber stamp made up, save you trying to hold a pen.
Just wondering, when are you actually going to post something, that just isn't baseless trolling?
Maybe you can explain what the highlights where, of the Rudd/Gillard Governments, that we can debate and find the reasoning behind your love of a single party.
It shouldn't take long.lol


----------



## orr (16 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> You are such a buffoon B-orr-e. Norway is mixed economy which relies on capitalistic aspects.
> 
> A climate model is not an economic system, even if an economic system may attempt to regard one.
> 
> These truths are self evident.




To many dots to connect hey w-Aynel? Two of them,  they're big not far apart with with a heavy line between in both cases. Think bumb-bell.


----------



## wayneL (16 February 2020)

orr said:


> To many dots to connect hey w-Aynel? Two of them,  they're big not far apart with with a heavy line between in both cases. Think bumb-bell.



Only in an echo chamber mate. However, as said, I'm all ears.

Convince me.


----------



## macca (16 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> https://summit.news/2020/02/13/camb...-race-must-become-extinct-to-save-the-planet/
> 
> *Cambridge Academic Says Human Race Must Become Extinct to Save the Planet*
> And white men are first to go, obviously




It really is just a case of saying anything that has shock value so that you get followers on social media, the crazier the better.

I do agree that the population is really getting a problem, food supply we are are coping with in the wealthy countries but surely all the water that is being pumped from the ground must start running out shortly.

I know that in some places in Oz they have deepened to bores, I imagine the same is happening elsewhere.

The elephant in the room right now is China's virus, the most powerful left wing nation in the world may in fact trigger the death of millions of people.

The wealthy countries are already taking steps to protect their citizens but if it continues to spread Africa, India, Pakistan etc may see millions die


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 February 2020)

macca said:


> In todays society it seems we are no longer allowed to question anyone's statements, there is very little banter, bull**** or otherwise, "Gees mate, I dunno, I reckon life would be tough without any metals" just about starts a war
> 
> As I understand it, it is considered passive aggressive if I ask for further information on any statement.




Being the sharpest person in the room doesn't usually require any special brilliance, just a willingness to use what you've got.

In a previous job I gave a Director a thorough grilling over a particular point once. It took three days. Three full days worth in a room with the door locked and nobody else present that is. I didn't mention a pay rise, my point wasn't about anything like that, but I got one......


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 February 2020)

macca said:


> This touches on something I find rather irritating.........
> 
> In todays society it seems we are no longer allowed to question anyone's statements




I've always had a view that "if it's worth complaining about it then it's worth doing something about it" and at the risk of sounding a bit arrogant, if someone's complaining without putting some effort into a solution well then that's whinging in my view.

By all means complain but put forward ideas for solutions or at least improvements which could be made. If you want government to spend more on x well then identify what you'd cut or what taxes you'd increase to fund it. Etc. 

The other point of relevance is that if I'm on the wrong track well then someone pointing this out is doing me a favour. Only an idiot closes their mind.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

I wonder just who people think are the "looney" Left ?

Extinction Rebellion, The Greens, The Labor Party, Malcolm Turnbull , Bill Gates ?

Looniness should be defined by examples.


----------



## Humid (17 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> And you still don't know why you vote.
> You may as well have a rubber stamp made up, save you trying to hold a pen.
> Just wondering, when are you actually going to post something, that just isn't baseless trolling?
> Maybe you can explain what the highlights where, of the Rudd/Gillard Governments, that we can debate and find the reasoning behind your love of a single party.
> It shouldn't take long.lol



How about you start


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Humid said:


> How about you start



Yet another one liner.
Cat got your tongue?


----------



## Humid (17 February 2020)

Perhaps you should read the 
There's title
3 lines there ya go


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder just who people think are the "looney" Left ?
> 
> Extinction Rebellion, The Greens, The Labor Party, Malcolm Turnbull , Bill Gates ?
> 
> Looniness should be defined by examples.




I think there are different aspects of looniness.

Any level of ideology which is either economically or sociologically unsustainable is insane. Before the fact may be a matter of opinion, but after the fact a matter of record. (and yes that does apply to the far right as well)

The Oz Greens and ER, definitely, as are anyone proposing a Soviet type of communism.

The Turnbulls', Simon Holmes a Court et all aren't insane, but they are merely self interested, even if they seem to be absolutely bonkers.

Bandt is certifiable.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Perhaps you should read the
> There's title
> 3 lines there ya go



Perhaps some focus on sentence structure might help.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> The Turnbulls', Simon Holmes a Court et all aren't insane, but they are merely self interested, even if they seem to be absolutely bonkers.




The Turnbulls give a lot of money to charity I believe, so I don't think they are entirely self interested.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The Turnbulls give a lot of money to charity I believe, so I don't think they are entirely self interested.



Hitler was a vegan and loved dogs. (Just to self invoke Godwin's Law  )


----------



## Humid (17 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> Perhaps some focus on sentence structure might help.




Only for the anal


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> Hitler was a vegan and loved dogs. (Just to self invoke Godwin's Law  )




Now that's just being silly and non inclusive.

Naught boy.


----------



## basilio (17 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The Right is rethinking on climate change and the Greens have completely reversed their original attitude toward heavy industry, manufacturing etc.
> 
> My view is the same in both cases. If someone improves then there's no need to play politics and argue about a "back flip" since doing so simply becomes a barrier to progress. The surest way to stop someone changing their approach is to attack them for doing so - that they were wrong previously is best left unsaid.



Absolutely blxxxdy on teh mark.

I went to the National Climate Emergency Summit on Friday /Sat.  One of the key elements was getting business and  industry onside to be a major, major  part of dealing with the changes required.

On the political front the emphasis was presenting a CC message that was  non partisan and able to be taken by Liberals and Labour and Greens alike.  

One of the very popular speakers was independent Liberal MP Zali Steggal.  She gave a very spirited presentation on why she wanted  her private members bill  on Climate Change action to get support across the community. Very big claps from the 2000 strong audience.  Mind you the other ex politicians on the panel thought her chances were slim.
But if enough people decided to make direct representation to their MPs and the PM maybe minds would be changed.

_Australia needs a framework to plan and manage the impacts of *climate* change. Sign the petition and urge your MP to vote for the *Climate Act*. Most economies have one._

https://climateactnow.com.au/


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2020)

basilio said:


> Absolutely blxxxdy on teh mark.
> 
> I went to the National Climate Emergency Summit on Friday /Sat.  One of the key elements was getting business and  industry onside to be a major, major  part of dealing with the changes required.
> 
> ...



I mentioned this a while back. Market it right and people will get on board. Whinging like loons won't help. A move back to center would be a welcome change.


----------



## basilio (17 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> I mentioned this a while back. Market it right and people will get on board. Whinging like loons won't help. A move back to center would be a welcome change.




Indeed it might.  But lets be clear about the reality of what is required to  very quickly reverse and re-engineer our the world to escape runaway global heating. 
It is not (just)  rainbows, unicorns, changing light globes, walking and buying electric cars.

This paper which defines what a Climate Emergency looks like and the measures necessary to attempt to address is a bit of a horror.

https://52a87f3e-7945-4bb1-abbf-9aa...d/148cb0_3be3bfab3f3a489cb9bd69e42ce22e7c.pdf


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2020)

basilio said:


> Indeed it might.  But lets be clear about the reality of what is required to  very quickly reverse and re-engineer our the world to escape runaway global heating.
> It is not (just)  rainbows, unicorns, changing light globes, walking and buying electric cars.
> 
> This paper which defines what a Climate Emergency looks like and the measures necessary to attempt to address is a bit of a horror.
> ...



I agree that it would need a seismic shift. 
It just won't happen unfortunately. The mindset through Asia and most poorer countries is completely different to the west. UN is a total sht show to begin with. Everyone knows the problem and it's China and our need for cheap crap.

My personal stance is that it won't happen through any kind of action. Only feasible way in which the problem is addressed is with advances in technology. 

Polluters gonna pollute.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> I agree that it would need a seismic shift.
> It just won't happen unfortunately. The mindset through Asia and most poorer countries is completely different to the west. UN is a total sht show to begin with. Everyone knows the problem and it's China and our need for cheap crap.
> 
> My personal stance is that it won't happen through any kind of action. Only feasible way in which the problem is addressed is with advances in technology.
> ...



Also on the way, they will become first World and we will become Third World, but a dose of reality will do a lot of people some good.


----------



## qldfrog (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder just who people think are the "looney" Left ?
> 
> Extinction Rebellion, The Greens, The Labor Party, Malcolm Turnbull , Bill Gates ?
> 
> Looniness should be defined by examples.



Bernie, Extinction Rebellion, The Greens, and the overall PC LGBT clique or anyone still believing in 2020 that socialism can be a valid economic model ? That fits my definition


----------



## PZ99 (17 February 2020)

Socialised healthcare is a valid economic model in 2020


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

Capitalism is great for giving people what they want, but not so great for giving people what they need.

There are exceptions of course, but the privatisation of the power grids has really gone down well hasn't it ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> The mindset through Asia and most poorer countries is completely different to the west.



A problem overlooked in regard to this issue is that there's plenty of countries where you could go and get 500 random people, take them to a suitable venue and give them a presentation on options for addressing the CO2 problem.

They'd all listen but there'd be just one problem and one dominant question. You'd get a comment along the lines of"

"That's all well and good Sir, I understand what you are saying that these things could be done, but there's one point I do not follow. You said "CO2 problem". Could you expand on this please? You are saying that CO2 is a problem but I have not heard of this previously. Why are you thinking it is a problem?"

To my understanding the issue is simply unheard of in plenty of places, public awareness is for practical purposes zero or close to it, so there's no chance they're going to be addressing it unless by pure chance as a by-product of something else done for unrelated reasons.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 February 2020)

basilio said:


> Absolutely blxxxdy on teh mark.
> 
> I went to the National Climate Emergency Summit on Friday /Sat. One of the key elements was getting business and industry onside to be a major, major part of dealing with the changes required.
> 
> On the political front the emphasis was presenting a CC message that was non partisan and able to be taken by Liberals and Labour and Greens alike.




Definitely that's what needs to happen.

Something I'll add though, and all sides are guilty of this one over the years, is that all too often there's a focus on detail to the point that the original message is completely lost.

I'm aware of that happening on various environmental issues over an extended period, I could quote examples going all the way back to 1970, where there was objection to the specifics of something that was proposed and the reasons for it were completely lost. Those reasons were, if you go and look at them today, entirely reasonable and often well ahead of their time in thinking but they became completely lost among the politics surrounding whatever proposal they related to.

It would have been far better if as a society we'd managed to say OK, don't agree with your proposed solution but the point being made is a valid one and we need to work together to find some other solution to it and do so without delay. 

Instead, all too often the whole thing ended up being lost amidst politics.


----------



## qldfrog (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Capitalism is great for giving people what they want, but not so great for giving people what they need.
> 
> There are exceptions of course, but the privatisation of the power grids has really gone down well hasn't it ?



Let's not call that capitalism
I do not exactly have a choice of electricity grid provider do i?
But paying 1k a year for a water network i do not use nor am  connected fit well with  your definition of socialism where a gov tells me what i need and charge me for the privilege.as for health...


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Socialised healthcare is a valid economic model in 2020



To a point it is. Take a really close look at doctors in this country and the way it's set up. A huge amount of waste and extremely bad practices taking place. 

Still have to pay here.
Plenty of people are still left to die as well....

Back specialist you can get for a fraction of the price in south America. Dentistry and medical you can get some fantastic ones through Thailand. Our hospitals are a joke and our doctors are terrible. 

The value of our dollar and high wages is probably the saving grace of living in Australia.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> To a point it is. Take a really close look at doctors in this country and the way it's set up. A huge amount of waste and extremely bad practices taking place.



It is by no means the worst system in the world though.

USA.......


----------



## qldfrog (18 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It is by no means the worst system in the world though.
> 
> USA.......



Usa is not capitalism..goto China for economic capitalism..the irony


----------



## wayneL (18 February 2020)

... just a little reminder, don't get confused between capitalism and corporatism.

Corporatism can sometimes look pretty anti-capitalistic


----------



## PZ99 (18 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> To a point it is. Take a really close look at doctors in this country and the way it's set up. *A huge amount of waste and extremely bad practices taking place. *
> 
> Still have to pay here.
> Plenty of people are still left to die as well....
> ...



Every socialist program comes with waste.  Which is generally why capitalists oppose them.
But if you weigh it up against the alternatives our healthcare is still a valid economic model. 

Not bad for a country with a populace too small to sustain manufacturing and relies on quarries and beaches.

If Australia can get it right - anyone can.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Every socialist program comes with waste.  Which is generally why capitalists oppose them.
> But if you weigh it up against the alternatives our healthcare is still a valid economic model.
> 
> Not bad for a country with a populace too small to sustain manufacturing and relies on quarries and beaches.
> ...




A country like the US could certainly do a universal health care system economically, whether they could do it politically is another matter. Too many greedy doctors wanting to charge what ever they want and  won't be told by the government how much they can charge. Obama tried, but the first whiff of a Right Wing government and UHC gets flushed down the toilet.

I wish Bernie luck, but he's got a big battle with vested interests if he wants a Medicare system system in the US.


----------



## moXJO (18 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> If Australia can get it right - anyone can.



If you are talking about terrible doctors and hospitals that regularly kill people through incompetence, I'd agree. But decent service here comes at a much higher price then other countries. 

Socialism breeds a kind of below average incompetence that is then protected by unions. Schools are another example. Sweden model is a lot better. But I think that could have a big part to do with their culture. They are having huge problems with the model they use due to mass migration. 
Things that once worked are now crumbling.

Not to say capitalism is perfect. There are flaws in every model.


----------



## PZ99 (18 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> If you are talking about terrible doctors and hospitals that regularly kill people through incompetence, I'd agree. But decent service here comes at a much higher price then other countries.
> 
> Socialism breeds a kind of below average incompetence that is then protected by unions. Schools are another example. Sweden model is a lot better. But I think that could have a big part to do with their culture. They are having huge problems with the model they use due to mass migration.
> Things that once worked are now crumbling.
> ...



Can't say I'm aware of regular deaths from bad doctors and hospitals solely due to us having Medicare. Presumably if you cut funding you produce unintended consequences. 

If there's a case for switching to capitalism to avoid the above I'd like to see it. Even better if it can be done with political impartiality


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2020)

From someone who has had to use the healthcare system in Australia, I would have to say it is very good, everyone in the family who can afford private cover have it, the one that doesn't have the money doesn't have it.
It is one of the systems put in place by Labor, that actually works as intended IMO, which just shows the talent Labor had in its ranks back then.
The gap system is annoying, but if it wasn't there, the doctors would just keep ramping prices which the health funds would pay and premiums would go stupid as in the U.S.
It isn't a perfect system, but in reality it is not immediately obvious to find a way which would make it better, so it can't be too bad.
The only real problems associated with it IMO are, abuse by both the doctors side and the users side, but that's human nature.
Just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The gap system is annoying, but if it wasn't there, the doctors would just keep ramping prices which the health funds would pay and premiums would go stupid as in the U.S.




I think Labor (Rudd from memory) made a mistake by selling off Medibank private, most likely because of pressure from the other Health insurance corporates.

MP acted as a price check against continual premium increases, even if the insurance companies screamed "unfair competition". That's just tough luck for them. Health care has to work for the consumers and corporates should take second place.

If I was advising Labor I'd suggest they get back into the insurance business, not just for health but home insurance as well which is rapidly becoming unaffordable.


----------



## chiff (18 February 2020)

One of the arguments in the US against a universal health system is that a lot of people do not see why they should pay for others (the less well off)


----------



## moXJO (18 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Can't say I'm aware of regular deaths from bad doctors and hospitals solely due to us having Medicare. Presumably if you cut funding you produce unintended consequences.
> 
> If there's a case for switching to capitalism to avoid the above I'd like to see it. Even better if it can be done with political impartiality



I have way to many stories to tell. Most involve deaths through gross incompetence.  One in particular was my unborn child. I've seen some of the worst things going on in hospitals. The only time I saw anything resembling competent practices was in one of the newer private hospitals. 

I wouldn't advocate for a US style system but that doesn't make our medical system any shining light to copy.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

chiff said:


> One of the arguments in the US against a universal health system is that a lot of people do not see why they should pay for others (the less well off)




I'm sure those views also exist in Australia but we have a system that is accepted by most of the population as being the best solution.

Any party that proposes scrapping Medicare will get slaughtered at the next election.

Malcolm Fraser got rid of the old Medibank and that didn't do him much good electorally.


----------



## PZ99 (18 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I think Labor (Rudd from memory) made a mistake by selling off Medibank private, most likely because of pressure from the other Health insurance corporates.



It was a mistake economically. A quick $4 billion sell off at the cost of half a billion a year in dividend revenue. I think it was Abbott.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> I think it was Abbott.




You're right.

"Medibank began business as an Australian Government-owned private health insurer, established by the Whitlam Government in 1975 through the Health Insurance Commission.[2] Medibank was set up to provide competition to private "for-profit" health funds. It was designed to put pressure on other health funds to keep premiums at a reasonable level.[3][4]

In 2006, the Howard Coalition Government announced that Medibank would be sold in a public float if it won the 2007 election,[5][6][7] however they were defeated by the Australian Labor Party under Kevin Rudd which had already pledged that Medibank would remain in government ownership. After 2009, although continuing in government ownership, Medibank operated as a government business enterprise, operating as a fully commercialised business paying tax and dividends under the same regulatory regime as do other registered private health funds. Before the 2010 election, Liberal leader Tony Abbott made the same pledge to privatise Medibank if it won government, but the party was again defeated by Labor. Privatisation was again Liberal party policy at the 2013 election, which the Coalition won."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medibank

In that case, *The Libs* made the big mistake.


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> I have way to many stories to tell. Most involve deaths through gross incompetence.  One in particular was my unborn child. I've seen some of the worst things going on in hospitals. The only time I saw anything resembling competent practices was in one of the newer private hospitals.
> 
> I wouldn't advocate for a US style system but that doesn't make our medical system any shining light to copy.



We just have to be careful which system we are blaming IMO, is it the health system or the training and education system? 
IMO too many people get stamped as being competent, because they sat in a classroom for the prescribed time, that goes for a lot professions and technical training.
Just my opinion.


----------



## qldfrog (18 February 2020)

chiff said:


> One of the arguments in the US against a universal health system is that a lot of people do not see why they should pay for others (the less well off)



Or the smokers or drug addicts..should i carry on?


----------



## chiff (18 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Or the smokers or drug addicts..should i carry on?



Or the gluttinous!


----------



## chiff (18 February 2020)

Should that be gluttonous?


----------



## chiff (18 February 2020)

I see where jeff Bezos has given 10bn to enable the fight against climate change.Didn't Twiggy give 70 million to the bushfire appeal-50 million of which was to fund a 'peer reviewed' study into why the fires were not caused by climate change.Which one is from the loony left?Or neither?


----------



## moXJO (18 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It is by no means the worst system in the world though.
> 
> USA.......



On the flip side the US does have some fantastic doctors and surgeons. They really know their speciality. Next level on a lot of things.
Here on the other hand, it's generally handing out antibiotics with the 4 min interview to catch their next paycheck.




sptrawler said:


> We just have to be careful which system we are blaming IMO, is it the health system or the training and education system?
> IMO too many people get stamped as being competent, because they sat in a classroom for the prescribed time, that goes for a lot professions and technical training.
> Just my opinion.



The way the system is setup, breeds a lot of incompetence. Public health systems were a joke. Things may have got better,  but I highly doubt it.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

chiff said:


> Should that be gluttonous?




Glutinous ?


----------



## wayneL (18 February 2020)

How did my thread on the lunatic left turn into a sensible discussion on health care systems? LOL.

Anyway, I am quite in favour of the socialization of a certain aspects of the economy, always have done. The perfect example he is health. (Along with certain public utilities)

I would say that well designed public health systems with good design may basically blow up because of other aspects of leftist ideology, open borders for example.

So when looking at a dysfunctional public health system is it due to the design or undue pressures because of other aspects of the economy.

I'm by no means an expert here, fortunately I don't have to use the health system very much at all, just throwing that out there as part of the discussion.


----------



## IFocus (18 February 2020)

Here is WA like SP had to use the system a couple of times.

The doctors / specialists have been extremely good as have the hospitals without exception.

Mind blowing technology  along with exception organisations public and private.

The US numbers for bankruptcies due to health care is very sad for such a wealthy country like Chiff says the yanks hate paying for someone else for the common good.


----------



## bellenuit (18 February 2020)

I see a state having three interconnected systems. An economic system, a regulatory system and a social system.

The economic system can be capitalist, a command economy, plutocracy, communist, the very nebulous socialist and there are perhaps a few others that are combinations of these in different ways. The regulatory system is our laws and in particular in relation to this discussion, our taxation laws. Our Social System is our Health, Education, Employment, etc. and of most importance our general happiness.

Capitalism has proven itself to be the best economic system to achieve the highest output objective for the least cost. The problem is the definition of the output objective. If we look solely at GDP and not relate our objectives in anyway to the objectives of our Social System, we get something like the USA. That is where our regulatory system comes in. 

Adam Smith used the term Invisible Hand of Capitalism and it can loosely be defined as a theory of economics that refers to the self-regulating nature of the marketplace in determining how resources are allocated based on individuals acting in their own self-interest.

The key here is *own self interest*. One's own self interest will, in general, be the maximisation of personal profit. We do not need to change that in a capitalist economy (let people, e.g. industry and its shareholders, continue to strive to maximise profit), but use the regulatory system to ensure that can only be achieved by meeting social objectives. So things like regulating the working week, prohibition of child labour, employee entitlements regarding sick leave etc. help ensure that the social objectives of  employee wellbeing are met. Different taxation levels for different types of energy use, royalties on natural resources use etc. can help meet objectives regarding Climate Change etc. I don't need to list everything but you should know what I mean when I say that the regulatory system can direct the economic system to meet the objectives of the social system.

The gist of what I am getting at is essentially not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Capitalism has proven to be the best system at achieving the highest output objective for the least cost. Everything  (with probably few, if any, exceptions) that we strive for under our social system can be best achieved by using the regulatory system to guide the invisible hand of capitalism so that self interest aligns with social objectives.

I recently watched a short video of George Monbiot (of The Guardian fame) saying we should throw out capitalism. Such stupidity in his arguments. For example, one reason he gave is that governments strive for economic growth and use GDP as the yardstick. He then states GDP is not a measure of human welfare. 100% correct.  GDP is not a measure of human welfare. Neither is the Richter Scale. GDP is a measure of, wait for it, GDP. GDP has been used as a measure of economic growth under every economic system out there; capitalist, communist and even traditional agrarian economies such as Butan. If we want to measure human welfare then create a measurement tool for that and set our regulatory system so that our capitalist economy can help us achieve that. Butan uses a Happiness Index as one of its societal goals. We can do that and still use capitalism as the engine to achieve it.

Everything else in his video related to environmental goals of sorts and even though I do not agree with some of his remedies, each remedy can be incorporated in our overall system by using the regulatory framework to do so and that can include the *"massive rewilding"* that Monbiot talks about in the video below.

And interestingly, he does not say what economic system we should use to replace our capitalist model. A communist model like China. Well it is now the biggest CO2 producer out there and is likely to get a lot worse as their several hundred new coal powered energy plants come on line over the next 10 years.  

The capitalist system under proper regulation is the most likely model to help us achieve our social objectives. An interesting observation of two economies before the cold war ended; West and East Germany. They both used GDP to measure economic growth. But the capitalist West Germany worked with the goal of maximising profit (the invisible hand) and the communist East Germany strove to simply maximise production. In relation to white goods, the East found one way to increase output was not to innovate and produce a more attractive market orientated product, but simply to increase the amount of metal in the particular white good product (as output was measure by weight). This is an example of two different economic models trying to achieve the same economic objective, but one doing it vastly more efficiently than the other. Compare the then West German Volkswagen with the East German Trabant for another perfect example. 

Apart from capitalism providing the best economic model to achieve our social objectives if governed by a proper regulatory framework, it also has proven the best model that doesn't require some sort of dictatorial overseer. It can operate in a democratic system. Almost every other economic model requires restrictions on democracy. One only has to look at the social improvements (not only in general but say for specific groups like women and gays) in every capitalist economy over the past hundred years and compare to those non democratic economies to see why it is best (an exception being those capitalist economies under Islamic control, but to a large extent they are probably nominally capitalist or more likely plutocratic or still agrarian).

One might argue that as we increase regulatory control, we become less capitalist and perhaps "socialist". I think that is a wrong argument as it conflating the economic model with the state model (which I originally mentioned is three different systems). States using a capitalist model (US, Europe) in the early 20th century are vastly different from a social perspective than those today. The regulatory system then was almost non existent so the social system was largely primitive. But as regulations were strengthened, the capitalist model employed didn't really change philosophically or even practically, but instead through the regulation was able to allow a more sophisticated social system to evolve. So that is what is happening now. People may refer to Scandanavian countries as "socialist", but they are really just capitalist economies with a more advanced social system. Guiding the invisible hand through regulation. 

*We have got to go straight to the heart of capitalism and overthrow it.*


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2020)




----------



## dutchie (19 February 2020)

So disappointing....

https://babylonbee.com/news/nations-liberals-devastated-after-learning-hate-crime-didnt-happen


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2020)

dutchie said:


> So disappointing....
> 
> https://babylonbee.com/news/nations-liberals-devastated-after-learning-hate-crime-didnt-happen



Similar to the leftist disappointment at the American economy going really well


----------



## PZ99 (19 February 2020)

Maybe they're looking at the American debt bill


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Maybe they're looking at the American debt bill



Pffffttt just buy gold dude


----------



## PZ99 (19 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> Pffffttt just buy gold dude



With what ?


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> With what ?



Fiat


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2020)

Good God!


----------



## PZ99 (19 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> Fiat



You mean Rubles right ?


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> You mean Rubles right ?



Shekels, Rupiahs, Pacific Pesos, whatever 

All essentially worthless and potentially quantitatively, Weimaresquely(sic) more so.


----------



## PZ99 (19 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> Shekels, Rupiahs, Pacific Pesos, whatever
> 
> All essentially worthless and potentially quantitatively, Weimaresquely(sic) more so.



Which makes the gold equally worthless as the papiermark, thus kinda defeating the purpose


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Which makes the gold equally worthless as the papiermark, thus kinda defeating the purpose



Gold is not without it's challenges especially of the non-physical variety.

Which is why I bought a few sheckels worth of physical around $1,200 USD recently, security problems notwithstanding... I do really get your point.

I am 99.999999% certain that I will never have to buy a loaf of bread  or a Kalashnikov  witha few filings from a gold coin, but who the hell knows?

But meanwhile, the gold bugs will go on one of their apocalypse parties eventually; and if I am super arsey, I might be able to flog it at somewhere near the top.


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2020)

From Guido Fawkes in London:

"Shocking scenes in Parliament Square, as a co-conspirator passed on photos of Winston Churchill’s statue – facing the Palace of Westminster – being boarded up. Similar photos have also emerged of the Cenotaph having to be protected from expected protests.

A few years ago in a BBC poll of a million people he was voted Britain’s greatest Briton. Now he is being boarded up to protect him from the mob. _Something has gone very wrong."_


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2020)




----------



## SirRumpole (12 June 2020)

> Fawlty Towers 'Don't mention the war' episode removed from UKTV https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/11/fawlty-towers-dont-mention-the-war-episode-removed-from-uktv?CMP=twt_a-culture_b-gdnculture …




Absolutely insane. If we have a world without laughter I don't want to live in it.


----------



## dutchie (12 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely insane. If we have a world without laughter I don't want to live in it.



You'll be right. But your kids won't be.


----------



## dutchie (12 June 2020)

Drinking white coffee is racist.

Starbucks is going down!


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2020)

Professor Saad has an upcoming book on all this. The funniest thing is when people don't get his satire


----------



## wayneL (13 June 2020)




----------



## Knobby22 (13 June 2020)

Neville Chamberlain? Bit harsh.
It is pathetic that they have to protect Winney.


----------



## wayneL (13 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Neville Chamberlain? Bit harsh.
> It is pathetic that they have to protect Winney.



I believe it is David Lloyd George


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 June 2020)

dutchie said:


> Drinking white coffee is racist.
> 
> Starbucks is going down!



Having a seperate bathroom for men and women is gender apartheid.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (13 June 2020)

There is a gentleman outside my beach house who says he is from Tonga.

I have told him this is not Tonga.

What should I do?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (13 June 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> There is a gentleman outside my beach house who says he is from Tonga.
> 
> I have told him this is not Tonga.
> 
> What should I do?



gender reassignment?


----------



## Value Hunter (13 June 2020)

I think the whole issue of climate change needs to be completely re-marketed. 

There are a significant percentage of the world's population who do not believe that humans are responsible for climate change. However almost everybody in the world agrees that polluted air is bad. Nobody enjoys breathing filthy big city smog. So why not rebrand the issue to "lets reduce emissions of carbon dioxide and other gasses so we can all enjoy better air quality. After all nobody wants to breathe polluted air." If we re-frame the whole debate I think the population would be more inclined to get behind. Rathewr than having "carbon taxes" you could have "pollution taxes" or "air quality taxation".


----------



## macca (13 June 2020)

Value Hunter said:


> I think the whole issue of climate change needs to be completely re-marketed.
> 
> There are a significant percentage of the world's population who do not believe that humans are responsible for climate change. However almost everybody in the world agrees that polluted air is bad. Nobody enjoys breathing filthy big city smog. So why not rebrand the issue to "lets reduce emissions of carbon dioxide and other gasses so we can all enjoy better air quality. After all nobody wants to breathe polluted air." If we re-frame the whole debate I think the population would be more inclined to get behind. Rathewr than having "carbon taxes" you could have "pollution taxes" or "air quality taxation".




They are not interested VC, I have been saying this for years and people just ignore me

My thoughts have always been we could simply go to the mouths of rivers, collect the rubbish and give it back to the polluters.

The millions spent flying around the world to talk about hot air could have been spent cleaning the oceans

We can clearly see who is polluting and who is not for most things, obviously not clear gases but if got rid of the obvious pollution it would be a start.

Not going to happen, too sensible


----------



## joeno (14 June 2020)

Extremism knows no direction. It's not a left to right scale. It's a circle.There are most definitely extremists now in 2020 than compared to 2000. They have movements and forums to develop their ideas on race, economics, society etc


----------



## macca (14 June 2020)

Social media has enabled all the nutters to form mobs, Left or right, they are predominantly made up of bullies and hangers on.

As most people know, bullies are actually cowards that think they have found someone they can beat. 

They mistake kindness for weakness then get a shock when the silent majority jack up and say enough is enough


----------



## wayneL (19 June 2020)




----------



## dutchie (19 June 2020)

macca said:


> Social media has enabled all the nutters to form mobs, Left or right, they are predominantly made up of bullies and hangers on.
> 
> As most people know, bullies are actually cowards that think they have found someone they can beat.
> 
> They mistake kindness for weakness then get a shock when the silent majority jack up and say enough is enough



The silent majority are weak and stay silent.  They are afraid.
The left has infiltrated all our institutions and now it's too late for the silent majority to say boo.


----------



## moXJO (19 June 2020)

wayneL said:


>




Funny and true


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (23 June 2020)

Allen's are changing the name of their lollies because the names are offensive to some people that probably don't buy their lollies:
"Red Skin has long been a slang and offensive term for Native Americans in the US and First Nations people in Canada. 

Chico is an offensive term for people of Latin-American descent. 

Allen’s Lollies started in Melbourne in 1891 before being bought by UK-based Rothmans holdings in 1985 and then later sold to Nestlé."
(https://au.news.yahoo.com/allens-to-change-names-of-red-skins-and-chicos-043643884.html)


----------



## Knobby22 (23 June 2020)

Redskins. They a already got rid of the Indian wrapping so no big loss.
I am sure most kids would find the name weird.

 but I wonder what the new name will be?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (23 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Redskins. They a already got rid of the Indian wrapping so no big loss.
> I am sure most kids would find the name weird.
> 
> but I wonder what the new name will be?




I just find it strange. What will be the increase of revenue from the name change. Surely all those offended by the name will buy all the stock now! These rebranded Redskins and Chicos will fly off the shelf, Allen's/Nestle won't be able to make enough: HAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## moXJO (23 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Redskins. They a already got rid of the Indian wrapping so no big loss.
> I am sure most kids would find the name weird.
> 
> but I wonder what the new name will be?



I remember biting into one as a kid and three teeth stuck into it when I pulled it out.


----------



## dutchie (25 June 2020)

Racist Cambridge University - Extreme left institution.

*Cambridge University Defends Academic Who Said “White Lives Don’t Matter”

Cambridge University has defended one its academics after she tweeted “white lives don’t matter,” despite the institution previously dismissing another academic who made far less controversial statements.

https://summit.news/2020/06/25/camb...ds-academic-who-said-white-lives-dont-matter/

*


----------



## wayneL (28 June 2020)

Funny


----------



## spooly74 (29 June 2020)

This is completely normal behaviour.


----------



## dutchie (6 July 2020)

This is what Antifa, BLM Inc and the woke left want.

Do you?


----------



## dutchie (9 July 2020)

Liberals Worried That Without Cancel Culture They'd Actually Have To Defend Their Ideas

U.S.—As cancel culture has come under attack in recent weeks, liberals have began to grow worried that it might get canceled. And if that happens, they'll be in the terrible situation of having to discuss and defend their ideas with people who disagree with them.

"Imagine how horrible it would be if instead of just canceling someone, we had to discuss differing viewpoints and then defend our ideas," said one journalist as he searched a Quiznos employee's old tweets. "It's much easier to simply silence them through cancelation, guaranteeing that we'll never have to examine our own views, come to a better understanding of the other side, and maybe even change our position sometimes."

*It's especially hard for the far left, as Communists much prefer silencing people and exiling them to having to explain their defense of a system that has killed over 100 million people. "It's what Joseph Stalin would have done," said Portland anarcho-communist Jayde Wilson. "You didn't see him worrying about defending his ideas -- he just canceled people -- straight to the gulag."


https://babylonbee.com/news*


----------



## Knobby22 (12 July 2020)

Great article in today's Age on cancel culture. The far left are attacking Liberalism, trying to limit free speech and trying to the equivalent of the school bully in the playground. 

It is a type of Macarthiasm and we should always call it out. In the UK, no less than Samon Rushdie and JK Rowling among many others are leading the attack against it. 

We should stand against it at every opportunity however the risk for artists is getting a black mark and so missing out on work.


----------



## dutchie (12 July 2020)

This is how the left Marxists thinks and works :-
The left is allowed to lie and exaggerate as much as they like.
If anyone else state *facts *that don't comply with left think then they need to silenced and cancelled.


----------



## bellenuit (12 July 2020)

dutchie said:


> This is how the left Marxists thinks and works :-
> The left is allowed to lie and exaggerate as much as they like.
> If anyone else state *facts *that don't comply with left think then they need to silenced and cancelled.




The fact that many on the moderate Left don't speak out against this cancel culture is an example of their moral cowardice. As I said many times in the past, their outrage is only when the bad deed is committed by the West.

Another example of cancel culture:


----------



## moXJO (13 July 2020)

bellenuit said:


> The fact that many on the moderate Left don't speak out against this cancel culture is an example of their moral cowardice. As I said many times in the past, their outrage is only when the bad deed is committed by the West.
> 
> Another example of cancel culture:




There is no moderate left after all the back slapping that went on to lead to these times.

This issue was brought up years ago to what essentially was support from lefties. Its not just all of a sudden.
 Remember "climate deniers" that eventually devolved into "nazi"?
Attacking anyone with an opposing view?
Jordan book banning/burnings, then vilifying the man as some sort of white supremacist?
Numerous times backing crazy stuff. Even the time that kid was vilified for smiling when it was actually the Indian standing over him. He was made out to be the aggressor by idiot actors and media.

This has been on the boil for a decade. And the left have decided to ride that wave all the way to its own special brand of fascism.

People probably forgot this too:

*A Project Veritas video released Tuesday showed a man identified as a campaign organizer for Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Bernard Sanders saying “cities burn” if President Trump wins reelection and predicting violence against police at the 2020 Democratic National Convention in Milwaukee.

Asked what would happen if Mr. Trump is reelected, the man described as Sanders campaign field organizer Kyle Jurek said, “F–ing cities burn,” adding, “I mean, we don’t have a lot of time left, we have to save f–ing human civilization.”*

That was back in January and lo and behold cities are burning from the leftist element. It was a planned event waiting for a trigger.
 Wonder where we have seen that before.

Democracy is rule of law, not rule of mob.


----------



## DB008 (14 July 2020)

*KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America (1984)*


​


----------



## bellenuit (15 July 2020)

Although I regard the New York Times as one of the best overseas newspapers, it too is succumbing to the relentless attempt by the Left to force a one-world view on its journalists and columnists.

Writer/Editor Bari Weiss has resigned and his resignation letter should be mandatory reading for all those who wish to understand the subtle and not so subtle censorship by the Left. This is a tweet from Bill Maher on the resignation, followed by a quote from the resignation letter and a link to the complete letter.



_Instead, a new consensus has emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at this paper: *that truth isn’t a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already known to an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else.*_

https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter


----------



## bellenuit (20 July 2020)

Well Maajid got his 100K and the Chinese ambassador got his feathers ruffled and the Left tweeted only about the Donald ....


----------



## fiftyeight (21 July 2020)

Hahaha thank you internet


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2020)

Sounds like the left wing of the U.K Labor Party, has got itself in a bit of trouble.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...urnalist-former-staffers-20200723-p55el7.html
from the article:
_London: Labour leader Keir Starmer and his predecessor Jeremy Corbyn are on course for an ugly public showdown following an unprecedented admission that the party had defamed a prominent BBC journalist and seven staffers who blew the whistle on anti-Semitism.

Starmer, a former director of public prosecutions who took over after the opposition's thumping 2019 election defeat, on Wednesday declared Labour was "under new management" amid the escalating clash with Corbyn and his hard-Left supporters.

Earlier, Labour revealed it would pay damages to seven former staffers who broke non-disclosure agreements to appear on the BBC's Panorama program to raise serious concerns over how the party handled complaints about anti-Semitic conduct_.
_Labour released a statement before the episode went to air in mid-2019 labelling the whistleblowers "disaffected former staff" with "personal and political axes to grind".
Labour also attacked Panorama journalist John Ware before and after the episode, accusing the journalist of "deliberate and malicious misrepresentations designed to mislead the public".
The party on Wednesday said it would pay damages and court costs - estimated to total more than £600,000 ($1 million) - to Ware and the former staffers of Labour's governance and legal unit who had all launched legal action_.


----------



## dutchie (26 July 2020)

Watch carefully what happens in the USA because it will eventually come to Australia.

Think about your children.


----------



## dutchie (26 July 2020)

Sooner or later you will have to pick a side.


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2020)

dutchie said:


> Sooner or later you will have to pick a side.



One Pr Gad Saad has much to say about that.

I'm really looking forward to his upcoming book, The Parasitic Mind

https://www.youtube.com/c/GadSaad


----------



## Knobby22 (26 July 2020)

dutchie said:


> Watch carefully what happens in the USA because it will eventually come to Australia.
> 
> Think about your children.



Just now. Dropped pretty 19 year old daughter off to get bread. In Melbourne.

On the way back to the car she made eye contact with a 60 year old guy who was not wearing a mask. 

Obviously a woman hater, called her a sheepy. I got out of the car, I'm fairly imposing. Stepped in and said to him you are the brainwashed sheepie, believing all the hate. Think about your behavior.

Left him there.
Won't do any good. He is obviously in the loop. 

Did you read about the USA Professor who committed suicide yesterday? Did a whole lot of hate speech, Uni wanted to be rid of him, paid him out a big sum. He celebrated with 9 of his hate mates, a month later he is dead. Hate is not a positive emotion.

My eldest sister is the opposite and I want to be more like her. She loves everyone, practically brought up a 4th girl with her other 3 daughters as her family was dysfunctional and still is friends with the mum. Now President of the local Rotary and a last year her and her husband hired a chateaux in France. 63 townspeople, all friends came along.

Love not hate.
Morrison is doing a good job bringing people together as are most world leaders. 
The USA is a basket case which we all need to reject and not let their poison infect us.


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Just now. Dropped pretty 19 year old daughter off to get bread. In Melbourne.
> 
> On the way back to the car she made eye contact with a 60 year old guy who was not wearing a mask.
> 
> ...



Really dumb 5hit. Good on you.

I'm not a pro mask guy, but if ones feels they should wear one, do it without fear or favour.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Really dumb 5hit. Good on you.
> 
> I'm not a pro mask guy, but if ones feels they should wear one, do it without fear or favour.



It's the law at present in Melbourne. To be fair my daughter probably made a disapproving look. Still..


----------



## cynic (26 July 2020)

One problem is that some people are a little too quick to vent their anger, and in doing so, have neglected to consider that there are those in the community, who are, for health reasons, unable to comply with this requirement.

But then what else could one expect from, members of that "useful army", commandeered by power seeking totalitarian puppeteers?!


----------



## orr (26 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Love not hate.
> Morrison is doing a good job ??? Ahh..  no he's not . There's a lot of people that are and he's playing catch-up.




To a bloke at the the age of sixty; an '_unintended and incidental_' coughing fit may possibly have served as a 'more imposing' question to his rational, given the current circumstances in Melbourne.
Tough love???


----------



## Knobby22 (26 July 2020)

You've changed my quote.  Morrison is doing a good job, he is acting inclusively. No one is perfect.

He would feel safe if my daughter started coughing as she was wearing a mask. 

He was very fit looking. Just not willing to do his bit. Just a brainwashed angry old man.


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2020)

I think there is a legitimate discussion about the pros and cons of masks.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 July 2020)

Everyone should just do their bit.
Its just pure selfishness.

Another example is the black lives matter protest in Sydney. Just selfish behaviour.

Effin far left and right. Both won't act for the common good.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Effin far left and right. Both won't act for the common good.



The radical Right fuels the radical Left fuels the radical Right fuels the radical Left......

The only way to stop one is to stop both and shift the discussion to a centrist intellectual approach. That goes for all these issues from racism to climate. Silliness on one side fuels the other side and the end result is an extreme division and little or no real progress.


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The radical Right fuels the radical Left fuels the radical Right fuels the radical Left......
> 
> The only way to stop one is to stop both and shift the discussion to a centrist intellectual approach. That goes for all these issues from racism to climate. Silliness on one side fuels the other side and the end result is an extreme division and little or no real progress.



I have seen a lot of commentary lately illustrating how the extreme left and the extreme right so very similar to each other, two sides of the same coin so-to-speak. I think they are pretty spot on with that.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I think there is a legitimate discussion about the pros and cons of masks.




OK, discuss away, what do you think ?


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, discuss away, what do you think ?



https://www.google.com/search?q=cov...oid-oppo-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=cov...oid-oppo-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8




Based on all the evidence, what is your conclusion ?


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Based on all the evidence, what is your conclusion ?



I think if you are susceptible, you should avoid going out as far as possible, and probably wear a mask in accordance with available science, i.e. with several caveats.

I think if you have any inkling you may possibly be infected, do the same, obviously self isolating as far as possible and getting oneself tested.... with the selfsame caveats (and I think this would be a great strategy with any virus, flu, etc).

But I think population wide mask wearing is unnecessary and possibly (probably) counterproductive.

If one feels safer wearing a mask, I wouldn't begrudge them doing so... no judgement, but I do not believe it should be mandatory.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I think if you are susceptible, you should avoid going out as far as possible, and probably wear a mask in accordance with available science, i.e. with several caveats.
> 
> I think if you have any inkling you may possibly be infected, do the same, obviously self isolating as far as possible and getting oneself tested.... with the selfsame caveats (and I think this would be a great strategy with any virus, flu, etc).
> 
> ...




Fair enough.

Personally I think they should be mandatory in hotspots because it's quite obvious that the situation in Victoria is not under control and if the medical advice is that masks reduce the spread, then every bit helps.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2020)

The thing is, no one is being asked to wear a mask 24/7, I got the flu a couple of weeks ago because some silly old fart was at scitec sneezing his face off, if he had to go why not wear a mask. 
He probably thought WTF, I should have done what I was going to do and fronted him, but with the missus and grandkids there, way too much heat.
As Knobby said it is a selfish self centered act, that the muppet's should be ashamed of.


----------



## cynic (26 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The thing is, no one is being asked to wear a mask 24/7, ...




Shhhh!! Don't let anyone hear you saying that! We don't want to be giving Dictator Dan any more ideas!!


----------



## moXJO (27 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Love not hate.
> .



I'm not sure people understand the difference on the left. They use love a lot as they steamroll anyone that opposes them.
"Tolerance" would be better suited.

I'm seeing some stupidity out there. People are going ballistic if anyone coughs. I remember during the drought where one guy killed the other because he was watering his lawn. Its fear being whipped up to absurd levels of division.


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> I'm not sure people understand the difference on the left. They use love a lot as they steamroll anyone that opposes them.
> "Tolerance" would be better suited.
> 
> I'm seeing some stupidity out there. People are going ballistic if anyone coughs. I remember during the drought where one guy killed the other because he was watering his lawn. Its fear being whipped up to absurd levels of division.



Yes!!! On all sorts of levels on all sorts of topics.

And it's only going to get uglier IMO. as little as 6 months ago I was pretty optimistic our society would be able to work out a way through this. Not now, I am as pessimistic AF and fully expect to have to defend myself against violent woke idiots at some stage in the very near future.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Yes!!! On all sorts of levels on all sorts of topics.
> 
> And it's only going to get uglier IMO. as little as 6 months ago I was pretty optimistic our society would be able to work out a way through this. Not now, I am as pessimistic AF and fully expect to have to defend myself against violent woke idiots at some stage in the very near future.




I can see  it now, gangs of vegans and soyboys too weak to swing a stick roaming the streets. The population in fear cowering.

And in Australia's darkest day, on horseback, a new hero is called.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> And in Australia's darkest day, on horseback, a new hero is called.




That would be Margaret Thatcher would it ?


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> That would be Margaret Thatcher would it ?




Though I am a fan of hers, no! She doesn't live in Australia and is dead anyway.

He wears a mask but not over the mouth and strikes fear to all the violent gangs of bearded hipsters.
Not afraid to splash milk into their coffee as he rides by. His identity is hidden but the people of ASF have their suspicions.


----------



## cynic (27 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Though I am a fan of hers, no! She doesn't live in Australia and is dead anyway.
> 
> He wears a mask but not over the mouth and strikes fear to all the violent gangs of bearded hipsters.
> Not afraid to splash milk into their coffee as he rides by. His identity is hidden but the people of ASF have their suspicions.



SilverRanger or Darkhorse?!! Never realised they were coffee drinkers!


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2020)

cynic said:


> SilverRanger or Darkhorse?!! Never realised they were coffee drinkers!




Close, GoldRanger, the clue is the horsehoes, steel with a gold insert. Beautifully crafted.


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2020)

I'm farrier in chief for the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse bros


----------



## moXJO (28 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I can see  it now, gangs of vegans and soyboys too weak to swing a stick roaming the streets. The population in fear cowering.



Exactly how this guy saw it:



Not a problem till its a problem.


----------



## Tink (28 July 2020)

Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II

The three worked together...


----------



## Knobby22 (28 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> Exactly how this guy saw it:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a problem till its a problem.




Dream on. We are in Australia, not the USA.


----------



## moXJO (28 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Dream on. We are in Australia, not the USA.



Yeah.... 
We don't have far left or right idiots here. I'm sure it won't happen.


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I can see  it now, gangs of vegans and soyboys too weak to swing a stick roaming the streets. The population in fear cowering.



I think that is what the left try to promote as being the normal, non offensive, non violent left wing fanatic, unfortunately I think that concept disappeared with the flower power people in the 1970's.
The radical left and radical right, have only a banner to separate them these days, the propensity to violence shows on both sides.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> Yeah....
> We don't have far left or right idiots here. I'm sure it won't happen.



It won't.  Australia is completely different.
I live in lefty territory. Adam Bandt is the mp. We have a shop called the kind butcher. They are all rich. Public servants, lawyers, Professors etc. They own ponies. 
They consider themselves virtuous for limiting themselves to one investment property.
They want change and will march for black rights etc. but they don't want revolution. 
Too much invested

The USA is completely different. Everyone is being screwed in many different ways. People have no reason to want to keep the status quo. 

Honestly the most insurection I have seen over the last 10 years is the Nazi group that got closed down (with one guy deciding to shoot it out with the police), the action against farmers by the animal rights crazies and those climate change idiots gluing themselves to the road.

I work on Exhibition St where protests are regularly organised. They are usually lucky to get 50 people. 

They don't want to overthrow the government, they want more government.

It's just a paranoid right wing conspiracy wet dream. Not going to happen.


----------



## wayneL (28 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> It won't.  Australia is completely different.
> I live in lefty territory. Adam Bandt is the mp. We have a shop called the kind butcher. They are all rich. Public servants, lawyers, Professors etc. They own ponies.
> They consider themselves virtuous for limiting themselves to one investment property.
> They want change and will march for black rights etc. but they don't want revolution.
> ...



It's actually good comment. The most dangerous people in the world are those who have nothing left to lose, and there are great swaithes of people in the US who have nothing to lose.

Not so much here, our radicals have too much to lose...

...for now.

That could change, but for the moment you are right.

I feel the chink in the armour is house prices. That could possibly alleviate itself, who knows. But I am a strong believer that our monetary / economic system is about to change, so again, who knows?


----------



## moXJO (28 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> It won't.  Australia is completely different.
> I live in lefty territory. Adam Bandt is the mp. We have a shop called the kind butcher. They are all rich. Public servants, lawyers, Professors etc. They own ponies.
> They consider themselves virtuous for limiting themselves to one investment property.
> They want change and will march for black rights etc. but they don't want revolution.
> ...



I'm sorry, but they simply use the people with nothing left to lose.
They are currently stirring up a lot of the black community. I got a first hand look at some of the characters and it's all about political agenda.

In saying that this issue won't bring them the critical mass they want. Let's see how that goes as Covid drags on. We are on the cusp of huge change. We also have the framework of far right and left setups. Just a matter of infecting people with a juicy divisive issue.

People in US Portland are not poor. They infiltrated every level where they are now basically free to cause sht. Its a ridiculous situation.
Its not people with nothing left to lose though.


----------



## IFocus (28 July 2020)

I agree with Knobby plus we simply don't have the deep divisions driven by aggressive language from most politicians here unlike the US.

Also we still have a middle class of sorts / less police violence - less aggression  / guns etc etc.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> I'm not sure people understand the difference on the left. They use love a lot as they steamroll anyone that opposes them.



I'll suggest that steamrolling, which is nothing other than a polite term for bullying (indeed it's the classic way a bully describes themself - "I'm a bit of a steamroller"), is a tactic commonly used by both extremes but rarely seen from those in the middle.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> They want change and will march for black rights etc. but they don't want revolution.



Where the risk lies is if they lose control of it.

That sort of thing can happen at any level of politics from a workplace union meeting through to a national government. Just needs someone with radical ideas who's good at working the room to get involved and it becomes a possibility that the originals lose control of their own movement.


----------



## sptrawler (29 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Where the risk lies is if they lose control of it.
> 
> That sort of thing can happen at any level of politics from a workplace union meeting through to a national government. Just needs someone with radical ideas who's good at working the room to get involved and it becomes a possibility that the originals lose control of their own movement.



As we on here have said before, the indigenous problems in Australia are far more acute in their own communities, than those been inflicted on them by the general community.
The protests IMO are undermining the real issues and the organisers are using the pretext to cause social unrest IMO.
I am only speaking for Australia, not the U.S situation, as I have no intimate understanding of the underlying issues there.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The protests IMO are undermining the real issues



Politicians and political movements generally end up typecast and associated in the minds of the masses with few, sometimes only one, achievement. That is particularly so when looking back many years later.

Bob Hawke - Medicare
Bob Brown - Franklin River
Paul Keating - economic reform and "the recession we had to have"
John Hewson - the GST birthday cake interview
John Howard - gun control

And so on.

If it were me then I'd rather be associated with healthcare, the environment or taxation reform or even "genuinely tried but failed" than with smashing things.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2020)

I think the BLM movement will fade out after a while as the realities of the coronavirus and the associated economic situation settles in.

The unemployment rate is likely to be high for a long time and many businesses will go under. In my view we could be heading for a lot of demos on the subject of living standards , working conditions and wealth distribution that we haven't seen for a long time, but this time the 'workers' have a point as they have suffered stagnant wages, less hours and insecure employment for at least two decades.

It will be interesting to see if Christian Porter and Sally MacMannus are still "besties" , especially after Freidenburgs incredible brain fade on Insiders.

No wonder Josh is keeping his head down.


----------



## sptrawler (29 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the BLM movement will fade out after a while as the realities of the coronavirus and the associated economic situation settles in.
> 
> The unemployment rate is likely to be high for a long time and many businesses will go under. In my view we could be heading for a lot of demos on the subject of living standards , working conditions and wealth distribution that we haven't seen for a long time, but this time the 'workers' have a point as they have suffered stagnant wages, less hours and insecure employment for at least two decades.
> .



It will be interesting to see how it is handled, inflicting pain, while still enjoying popularity takes a certain skill set.
History shows Hawke and Keating had it, they are still regarded highly, despite bringing in de regulation in the financial sector, tarrif reductions and a wage freeze.
I'm not sure that will be an easy act to follow, these days. 
I'm not convinced the younger generation, will swallow the changes required, to undue the last 40 years of outsourcing.


----------



## johenmo (29 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> As we on here have said before, the indigenous problems in Australia are far more acute in their own communities, than those been inflicted on them by the general community.
> .......




Jacinta Price's comments in early June certainly upset people - especially comments like:
“70 per cent of Aboriginal men and women incarcerated are incarcerated for acts of violence against their loves ones”. 
 “You don’t care because the perpetrators are also black, people only care if there is seen to be a white perpetrator”.
 “It’s not racism that is killing our people, it is the actions of our own people”.

FWIW, I have Indigenous relatives in the Kimberley region and recall hearing them talk about the same problems in the communities 40 years ago.  Throwing $ at the problems isn't the answer - it's needed but it needs more than just $$.  Help has to come from within to fix it and keep it fixed.  And this will take a generation or three.


----------



## sptrawler (29 July 2020)

johenmo said:


> Jacinta Price's comments in early June certainly upset people - especially comments like:
> “70 per cent of Aboriginal men and women incarcerated are incarcerated for acts of violence against their loves ones”.
> “You don’t care because the perpetrators are also black, people only care if there is seen to be a white perpetrator”.
> “It’s not racism that is killing our people, it is the actions of our own people”.
> ...



Unfortunately weaning people off welfare is never easy, but having people sitting around with nothing to do, just destroys self worth and self esteem.
The best thing to improve a persons self belief and self image, is to give them meaningful work, then they can set goals and dreams.
I know first hand how difficult it is to motivate long term unemployed people, it is hard to explain that work actually gives them a reason to get up in the morning, poor health follows a sedentary lifestyle filled with sitting drinking and arguing it feeds on itself and leads to a dark place IMO.
It is a shame the gas processing plant didn't go ahead in Broome, it would have been a huge employer and provided the fuel for lots of industry up there, it may well have presented the employment hub needed to address the problem. Unfortunately the lunatic left got heavily involved and squashed it.

Today's 'West" has a double page spread on the same subject, youtube has heaps of content, it is communal entertainment sadly.
https://thewest.com.au/news/regiona...-aboriginal-community-of-balgo-ng-b881622018z


----------



## moXJO (29 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> I agree with Knobby plus we simply don't have the deep divisions driven by aggressive language from most politicians here unlike the US.
> 
> Also we still have a middle class of sorts / less police violence - less aggression  / guns etc etc.



People forget the rightwing mass killer that use to post here.

Also funds flowing in supporting groups that cause disruption. Enough said.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the BLM movement will fade out after a while as the realities of the coronavirus and the associated economic situation settles in.



I'm not opposed to their claimed objectives, racism etc is something we'd all be better off without.

It's just their idea of how to achieve it I'm not keen on. Destruction and violence isn't the place to start. Peaceful ways forward should always be the aim.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm not opposed to their claimed objectives, racism etc is something we'd all be better off without.
> 
> It's just their idea of how to achieve it I'm not keen on. Destruction and violence isn't the place to start. Peaceful ways forward should always be the aim.



They have waited a couple of hundred years for things to change, so I suppose they are entitled to feel that nothing has worked so far. Trouble is that the genuine ones are being undermined by people with a completely different agenda.


----------



## IFocus (29 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> People forget the rightwing mass killer that use to post here.
> 
> Also funds flowing in supporting groups that cause disruption. Enough said.





Who was that? He asks after locking the front door


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2020)

johenmo said:


> Jacinta Price's comments in early June certainly upset people - especially comments like:
> “70 per cent of Aboriginal men and women incarcerated are incarcerated for acts of violence against their loves ones”.
> “You don’t care because the perpetrators are also black, people only care if there is seen to be a white perpetrator”.
> “It’s not racism that is killing our people, it is the actions of our own people”.
> ...



At last a combined effort is taking shape, hopefully accountability is included in the brief, we may finally be heading in the right direction.
But I have heard that one before, it is usually the vocal minority, who blow these initiatives apart IMO.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...improve-indigenous-lives-20200729-p55gog.html
From the article:
_The plan will commit federal, state and local governments and a coalition of 50 peak Indigenous organisations to a significant reduction in suicides as well as a pledge to reduce the Indigenous adult incarceration rate by at least 15 per cent among adults and at least 30 per cent among juveniles by 2031. It will also aim to dramatically reduce the number of Indigenous children in out-of-home care in the next decade.
State-based reporting of results will be put in place. This will include the Productivity Commission undertaking an independent three-yearly review on progress, complemented by an independent Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander-led review.
The agreement has been written in a collaborative process overseen by Indigenous Australians Minister Ken Wyatt and Pat Turner, convener of a coalition of 50 peak Indigenous organisations.

Mr Wyatt said the historic plan would for the first time bring shared responsibility and joint accountability to efforts by governments, councils and communities to improve the lives of Indigenous Australians_.


----------



## moXJO (30 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> Who was that? He asks after locking the front door



The idiot that went to NZ.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (3 August 2020)

Still relevant today:


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

BlindSquirrel said:


> Still relevant today:




Classic Cleese.


----------



## dutchie (14 August 2020)

*BLM Rioters Awarded Nobel Peace Prize*

OSLO—The Norwegian Nobel Committee has announced the recipients of this year's Nobel Peace Prize: Black Lives Matter peaceful protesters who burned down communities and violently beat all who stood in their way.

BLM protester and Antifa member Bryce Hapley accepted the award on behalf of all the incredibly peaceful protesters across the United States.

"Nobody has done more for peace than these brave peaceful protesters," a Nobel Committee spokesperson said while presenting the award to the young man, clad in all black and wielding a bike lock. "Every thrown brick, every bloodied citizen, and every burned-down low-income housing community represents another step toward world peace."

"This may be the most deserving recipient since Barack Obama."

Hapley immediately hurled the Nobel medal through the window of a nearby Starbucks in the name of peace.

BabylonBee.com


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2020)

Ardern suggests to postpone elections due to covid...

The left: Yay what a leader

Trump suggests to postpone elections due to covid...

The left: Dictator! Nazi!


----------



## Knobby22 (17 August 2020)

Just like Trump really except she set a date and a clear reason.

Unlike Trump though in that her polling just keeps rising to new highs never seen before in NZ.

Leadership! It makes a difference.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Ardern suggests to postpone elections due to covid...
> 
> The left: Yay what a leader
> 
> ...




As long as it's done within the Constitution then they have the right. The NZ PM can call an election anytime until Nov 21 under the Law, but Trump doesn't have the power to alter the date, and it's never been done.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ver-delayed-presidential-election-why-tricky/


----------



## wayneL (18 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> As long as it's done within the Constitution then they have the right. The NZ PM can call an election anytime until Nov 21 under the Law, but Trump doesn't have the power to alter the date, and it's never been done.
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ver-delayed-presidential-election-why-tricky/



Yes

But it's the reaction here Horace, you know that don't you?


----------



## PZ99 (18 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Just like Trump really except she set a date and a clear reason.
> 
> Unlike Trump though in that her polling just keeps rising to new highs never seen before in NZ.
> 
> Leadership! It makes a difference.



Yeppers... there's no real comparison anyway. 

NZ leader responds to calls from the opposition to delay the election due to covid.

Top US Republicans reject own leaders' call to delay the election due to fraud allegations.

Seems the reaction from the right has been lunatic left


----------



## moXJO (18 August 2020)

The hundreds of videos of people being pulled out of cars and beaten or the endless rioting and violence is a better indicator. And then one side supporting it with lies. 
This guy at no time tried to run people over by the way....


----------



## wayneL (27 August 2020)

The lunacy is increasing


----------



## dutchie (27 August 2020)

Yes, this is how the Nazi fascism started

[
	

		
			
		

		
	







BLM = Antifa = Nazi fascists




https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...C-diner-tormented-Black-Lives-Matter-mob.html


----------



## Knobby22 (27 August 2020)

dutchie said:


> Yes, this is how the Nazi fascism started
> 
> [
> 
> ...



Yea, everyone knows the Nazis started as an anti racism movement.


----------



## moXJO (27 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, everyone knows the Nazis started as an anti racism movement.



Because attacking and singling out white people for all the worlds ills doesn't hark back, or has shades of history at all.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Because attacking and singling out white people for all the worlds ills doesn't hark back, or has shades of history at all.



Sure, the blacks are oppressing the whites. 
The antifascists are the fascists. Black people are going into white churches and killing everyone inside. 

The truth is the country is screaming for something to be done. The NBA are now on strike due to the latest black killings.

All that gets proposed is to turn the country into a police state and the building of new confederate statues.

If it happened in Australia we would have a Royal Commission and recommendations would be made. 

The country needs leadership and solutions. It needs positive actions.


----------



## dutchie (28 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Sure, the blacks are oppressing the whites.
> The antifascists are the fascists. Black people are going into white churches and killing everyone inside.
> 
> The truth is the country is screaming for something to be done. The NBA are now on strike due to the latest black killings.
> ...




The first thing it needs is an honest MSM.

And we all know that is not going to happen.


----------



## IFocus (28 August 2020)

Nope its 1st a social issue and its happening under Trump.

Like all these things its needs leadership to bring everyone onto the same page create the necessary changes and move forward. 

Instead you have a narcissus actively creating divisions within the country so he can win an election and continuing to enrich himself and his family.

Keep cheering for Trump gents mean while Rome burns.


----------



## dutchie (28 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Keep cheering for Trump gents mean while Rome burns.




Fires lit by the left zealots supported by the Democrats and MSM in order to create chaos so that Marxism (socialism and communism) can develop.
People are sick of the lefts burning, rioting, looting and violence. The silent majority will give Trump a resounding victory for another four years.
Suck it up leftists!


----------



## dutchie (28 August 2020)

Do we need any further proof that Democrats are actively working with the anarchists to destabilize our nation?




Virginia Senate Passes Bill To Reduce Sentences For Assaulting Police
Virginia's Democratic Senate passed legislation reducing penalties for assaulting police officers by removing mandatory minimum prison sentences.
thefederalist.com

From James Wood


----------



## moXJO (28 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Sure, the blacks are oppressing the whites.
> The antifascists are the fascists. Black people are going into white churches and killing everyone inside.
> 
> The truth is the country is screaming for something to be done. The NBA are now on strike due to the latest black killings.
> ...



Deflection at its most delusional. 

Did you watch either of the videos of arrests?
The first guy that died resisted arrest and was erratic. It wasn't until the end that the cop was dumb enough not to check his status. I won't argue the legalities of it.

And the cities are run by who, where the last lot of events occur?

This is a nation divided for political gain by both sides.


----------



## moXJO (28 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Nope its 1st a social issue and its happening under Trump.
> 
> Like all these things its needs leadership to bring everyone onto the same page create the necessary changes and move forward.
> 
> ...



Which cities, run by who?

You think rioting and looting is ok.
Trump tried to send in feds and it was blocked by the states. So please expand rather then uneducated guesses. Fed doesn't work the same as here.


----------



## dutchie (28 August 2020)




----------



## IFocus (28 August 2020)

Nope, there are serious social issues and its happening across the US under Trumps lack of leadership and or direction.

The divisions across the US under Trump has been expanded under the biggest wealth transfer ever seen from lower and middle income to the extreme wealthy remember $1.6 bil plus unfunded tax cuts to the wealthy?

BTW there is no politics when a police officer shoots dead anyone not following his instructions.

BTW there is no politics when those that have nothing to lose start rioting.

However it requires leadership to fix.

Currently in the US there is no leadership  COVID has proven that, I wonder how the shining of blue light inside bodies to cure covid  is going anyone heard?

Cheering and defending Trump.........you just cannot make this stuff up.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Nope, there are serious social issues and its happening across the US under Trumps lack of leadership and or direction.
> 
> The divisions across the US under Trump has been expanded under the biggest wealth transfer ever seen from lower and middle income to the extreme wealthy remember $1.6 bil plus unfunded tax cuts to the wealthy?
> 
> ...



Yes Shorten was going to take franking credits of the poor and twiggy forrest was going to keep his, you cant make that stuff up either.
I guess it depends on who is seen as playing to the wealthy.
Obviously the wealthy in Australia are those who are self funded pensioners, with less than $1.6 m a year ago, not those getting $1billion in dividends.
Good on you left wing stick it up the rich self righteous looking after the little guy dopes.


----------



## moXJO (29 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Cheering and defending Trump.........you just cannot make this stuff up.



Cheering? Defending?

How about you parrot's stop printing bs and half truths. None of you address the actual issues or simply ignore it. 

Once again the states own the riots. Trump tried to send in help and you lot whined. Now it's his fault because he didn't. Dems don't want to work with him, case closed.

That's the calibre of your arguments- one long never-ending whinge. 

And yes you can make this stuff up. Just like the Russian collusion, a fourteen year old boy insulting an Indian and the long list of crap that has been posted throughout this thread. 

Good I hope he loses. I couldn't take 4 more years of this cr@p.


----------



## dutchie (29 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Nope, .........you just cannot make this stuff up.




Leftists Fight Fascism By Marching Through Streets Forcing Everyone To Perform Their Special Salute
August 28th, 2020





WASHINGTON, D.C.—Leftists announced a bold new tactic to eradicate fascism from the land today: marching in lockstep through the streets and accosting anyone who doesn't chant their slogans and perform their special salute.

"We did it! We defeated fascism!" cried one elated protester after the mob accosted a woman in the street and screamed in her face for not performing their salute, in which their arms were raised at a 45-degree angle. "Great job, everyone! Free milkshakes for everyone!" They then threw milkshakes at random passersby.

As for citizens who don't perform the special salute, mobs are organizing camps for them to be reeducated in. Should people not own a car to drive to the camps, they will be sent via public transportation, possibly a train.

At publishing time, mob leaders had purchased some matching brown uniforms for everyone so you can easily recognize who the good guys are.

Hey good guys, have you got your brown uniform yet?


----------



## IFocus (29 August 2020)

Its all happening under Trump which part of this are you missing......Trump is president but no leader, all fluff no powder.


You cannot make this stuff up yet the excuses keep coming.

When Trump gets back in nothing will change other than the increasing enrichment of himself and his family.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2020)

dutchie said:


> Do we need any further proof that Democrats are actively working with the anarchists to destabilize our nation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are you actually American Dutchie ?

Australia is another country, we don't vote in the US, what makes you think we care ?


----------



## moXJO (29 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Its all happening under Trump which part of this are you missing......Trump is president but no leader, all fluff no powder.
> 
> 
> You cannot make this stuff up yet the excuses keep coming.
> ...



There's a name for mob violence until their side is in power.


----------



## spooly74 (29 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Its all happening under Trump which part of this are you missing......Trump is president but no leader, all fluff no powder.
> 
> 
> You cannot make this stuff up yet the excuses keep coming.
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong but Trump will be the only President to leave office with less wealth.
Also, I think he's the only President not to take a paycheck, they get donated.


----------



## wayneL (29 August 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but Trump will be the only President to leave office with less wealth.
> Also, I think he's the only President not to take a paycheck, they get donated.



Or to start a war.


----------



## dutchie (29 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you actually American Dutchie ?
> 
> Australia is another country, we don't vote in the US, what makes you think we care ?



For someone who does not care, you sure do post a lot in US political and US themed threads.


----------



## dutchie (29 August 2020)

The Democrat supporters are so keen to protest, they even protest against themselves.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2020)

dutchie said:


> For someone who does not care, you sure do post a lot in US political and US themed threads.




Not as much as you.


----------



## dutchie (29 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Not as much as you.



I never said I don't care.


----------



## IFocus (29 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> There's a name for mob violence until their side is in power.




No one can dodge the point there is no leadership which is when a strategy is formed / planed  and laws passed to resolve the issues currently their is nothing other than threats.

Its happening under Trump no one else.


----------



## moXJO (29 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> No one can dodge the point there is no leadership which is when a strategy is formed / planed  and laws passed to resolve the issues currently their is nothing other than threats.
> 
> Its happening under Trump no one else.



So trump is a dictator then who has to bypass the house and force troops into democrat run areas to run them properly? 
Remember how that panned out before?

Are you just throwing words up or did you actually check to see what was done?

You have a warped view of leadership. Democrat states are run by democrats. The same ones that refused help. 
The ones that accepted were quickly resolved.
Pretty simple huh..


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 August 2020)

Chaos reigns on the right and left.

gg


----------



## IFocus (29 August 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but Trump will be the only President to leave office with less wealth.
> Also, I think he's the only President not to take a paycheck, they get donated.




Trump wont release his tax returns so no one knows however he has used his own properties for government business and anyone wanting to curry flavor stays at his hotels / golf resorts which I believe is unprecedented.

We will have to wait for the end of his term (when ever that happens) to find out what laws he has broken in regards to finance as the various state prosecutors go after him.


----------



## IFocus (29 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> So trump is a dictator then who has to bypass the house and force troops into democrat run areas to run them properly?
> Remember how that panned out before?
> 
> Are you just throwing words up or did you actually check to see what was done?
> ...




Mo simple point and I know its annoying ....but the point 

" Make America Great Again"

.....and hasn't that gone well! 180,000 dead, economy in crisis, widespread rioting and violence and Trumps plan is.............what.


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Mo simple point and I know its annoying ....but the point
> 
> " Make America Great Again"
> 
> .....and hasn't that gone well! 180,000 dead, economy in crisis, widespread rioting and violence and Trumps plan is.............what.



Perhaps you should read his manifesto 

But in general, it's to try to stop the left further destroying their country. In case you hadn't noticed, it's the the left, where they have control, totally smashing everything up.


----------



## moXJO (30 August 2020)

Covid.

US is number 1 in the world for testing if you ignore China's bs stats.
But you wouldn't know the way you lot post.
Its 11th in total deaths.

A third of all deaths occurred in just 3 democrat run states.



> As of Sunday, April 26, states with Republican governors have experienced 57.53 coronavirus deaths per million of population, states with Democratic governors have 179.74 deaths per million of population. Even excluding the state of New York as an extreme outlier, states with Democratic governors have 138.58 deaths per million from coronavirus, still over _twice_ as many coronavirus deaths per million as deaths in states with Republican governors.[1]





So here's the thing: 
Democrats have consistently hamstrung Trump all the way through the president’s term in office with outright lies. They are now risking lives through allowing riots and ignoring coronavirus.
And I see zero scrutiny on democrats and a bunch of outright lies or half truths posted up about Trump. 

If it were personal opinion on Trump (eg: corrupt, cr@p, dumb) I could care less. When its this weird agenda people seem to love to use, then it needs to be pulled up a bit.


----------



## bellenuit (30 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Its 11th in total deaths.




11th per capita. 1st in total deaths.


----------



## IFocus (30 August 2020)

So I guess NY and CA are leading in deaths having higher populations and greater movement?

When Trump failed to meet with the leading health professorial in the country for months in the middle of a pandemic that's OK right?

Whats the plan?

And the total deaths thing is straight out of Trumps play book, as Bellenuit points out deaths per capita they are killing it literally.


----------



## IFocus (30 August 2020)

Try again

So I guess NY and CA are leading in deaths having higher populations and greater movement?

When Trump failed to meet with the leading health professional  in the country for months in the middle of a pandemic that's OK right?

Whats the plan?

And the total deaths thing is straight out of Trumps play book, as Bellenuit points out deaths per capita they are killing it literally.

The riots are a social issue and Trump tried to exploit politically by sending in unidentified Agents to take people of the streets which failed spectacularly. 

Trump sows divisions that's not leadership, trump has no plans or policy to resolve to problems which wont just go away like the virus is suppose to.


----------



## bellenuit (30 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> A third of all deaths occurred in just 3 democrat run states.




The thing is the Democrat controlled states were hit earlier on. New York had a huge infection rate in a particular suburb (can't recall the name, sorry) when it was just becoming understood that it was not just another flu, but a pandemic and it quickly spread from there. They fought COVID with just minimal assistance from the Fed. Trump was still saying it would vanish in a few days and his son in law was selling protective equipment and ventilators to large companies so that they could get their cut rather than ensuring it got to that state asap. Testing was abysmal. COVID was a federal responsibility and Trump just washed his hands of it. He is even on record saying to his staff not to take phone calls from a particular lady governor of a Democrat state, because she wasn't a vocal supporter of his.

NY made some mistakes in the beginning as the virus and stopping its spread was something no one had experience in. But they took strong action, being derided every step of the way by Trump with his calls to  "liberate" Democratic controlled states and his constant downplaying of the seriousness of the virus. But they got it under control. 

Here is a graph of deaths being recorded in NY State up to the present.






Here is the same for Texas.





	

		
			
		

		
	
 The jumping up and down on the Texas chart is due to poor weekend reporting, but the weekly average seems to be about 200 coming down to 175. New York on the other hand has a negligible daily rate. Although Texas has a 29m population vs New York 19.4m, the disparity in current death rates is huge. Look at Florida which has, at 21.4m, a similar population to NY State.





	

		
			
		

		
	
 Though slowly coming down, their rates are still on average way above 100 per day.

And what is obvious looking at the 3 graphs is that the NY spike was early on in the pademinic, when little was know about it, supplies were scarce and Fed pronouncements were counterproductive. Additionally NY was just coming out of Winter and we know cold is a contributing factor to its spread. Texas and Florida have much milder climates. 

But now, months later with all the knowledge available and many supply constraints removed (there are no supply constraints at all according to Trump, but we know that is a lie), Texas and Florida are bumbling their way though the pandemic. Not just New York, but most developed countries have it under control, though minor outbreaks are still occurring.


----------



## moXJO (30 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> So I guess NY and CA are leading in deaths having higher populations and greater movement?
> 
> When Trump failed to meet with the leading health professorial in the country for months in the middle of a pandemic that's OK right?
> 
> ...



Deaths per million is what I meant. And its not a dodgy measurement or "out of Trumps playbook". Its a legitimate stat. Or do we ignore stats in the pursuit of tearing someone down?

Victoria is run by one of the more left leaning states 
513 or so deaths compared to the next highest nsw at 52.

Trump refused to meet, need a link. If its just a bunch of plebs instead of officials wanting to put two bits in. Then it doesn't really count.

Did you look at the official advice on coronavirus or expect me to drag it out?


----------



## moXJO (30 August 2020)

bellenuit said:


> The thing is the Democrat controlled states were hit earlier on. New York had a huge infection rate in a particular suburb (can't recall the name, sorry) when it was just becoming understood that it was not just another flu, but a pandemic and it quickly spread from there. They fought COVID with just minimal assistance from the Fed. Trump was still saying it would vanish in a few days and his son in law was selling protective equipment and ventilators to large companies so that they could get their cut rather than ensuring it got to that state asap. Testing was abysmal. COVID was a federal responsibility and Trump just washed his hands of it. He is even on record saying to his staff not to take phone calls from a particular lady governor of a Democrat state, because she wasn't a vocal supporter of his.




Your whole post is off.
California just recorded 700000 cases its not getting better.
NY has got a handle on covid after their own disastrous effort.
Trump was mocked for downplaying the need for more ventilators. Ended up NY had more then enough and sent them to other states.
64 billion in federal aid was sent to NY.

Cumo and Deblasio have failed on multiple levels. The current mass exodus isn't a surprise. 

But Trump Trump Trump


----------



## IFocus (30 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Trump refused to meet, need a link. If its just a bunch of plebs instead of officials wanting to put two bits in. Then it doesn't really count.






Dr Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, has not briefed President Donald Trump in the past two months about the coronavirus pandemic, as cases surge in parts of the US.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...virus-briefing-task-force-covid-a9613371.html



https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/dr-...ited-to-white-house-coronavirus-briefing.html


----------



## bellenuit (30 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Your whole post is off.
> California just recorded 700000 cases its not getting better.




If you want California's graph, here it is.




It seems to be on a par with Texas and Florida, but less than both on a per population basis as CA has 33% more people than Texas and nearly double that of Florida. On a total deaths per million basis, Californian, Texas and Florida are 327, 441 and 517 respectively.


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2020)

Elsewhere this evening, I had a whinge about clients and the desire to retreat my cave.

Further.

When I go to a job, I expect to field questions on hoof capsule morphology and physiology, biomechanics, and podotrochlear pathology.

Instead, and today was typical ( a rare transgression of the Sabbath), I ended up in a debate (initiated by... Not me) on BLM, METOO, the second amendment(?), and the merits (or not FFS) of marxism.

FFS, for the first time in my life I understand why hairdressers are all psycho.


----------



## dutchie (31 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Instead, and today was typical ( a rare transgression of the Sabbath), I ended up in a debate (initiated by... Not me) on BLM, METOO, the second amendment(?), and the merits (or not FFS) of marxism.



Discussions like that should definitely be left to Stock Forums.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> FFS, for the first time in my life I understand why hairdressers are all psycho.




Not a good thought when they have a razor on your neck.


----------



## dutchie (31 August 2020)

More and more Americans are realising how dangerous the left (Democrats, BLM, Antifa) are.


----------



## moXJO (31 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Dr Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, has not briefed President Donald Trump in the past two months about the coronavirus pandemic, as cases surge in parts of the US.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...virus-briefing-task-force-covid-a9613371.html
> 
> ...



He was having surgery and its the CDC that advises. Fauci is the media front man. Trump and Fauci disagree on reopening the economy.


----------



## dutchie (1 September 2020)

Can any of you Marxists translate this for me?


----------



## dutchie (1 September 2020)

*Proud Mayor Lets His Entire City Burn To The Ground Just To Make Trump Look Bad*







PORTLAND, OR—In an effort to prevent the reelection of sitting President Donald Trump, Mayor Ted Wheeler is encouraging citizens to raze their city to the ground. They hope that by desolating the entire city and reducing it to nothing more than smoking heaps of ash, that Trump won’t stand a chance in 2020. 

“This is a small price to pay, if it means getting literally Hitler out of office,” said Mayor Ted Wheeler pouring gasoline throughout the city. “Now burn those buildings down! Burn them all!”

In response to the violence, the president has offered to send support to restore the peace to the city. Instead of giving Trump the political win he craves, Mayor Wheeler has come up with a solution of his own. “You can’t restore law and order to a city if there is no city left!”

Many questioned Mayor Wheeler’s commitment to the cause until he struck a match and set his own home ablaze. “In the end, this will all be worth it. Homes can be rebuilt, but a chance at hurting Trump’s poll numbers is priceless!”

So far there have been no signs of these actions negatively affecting Trump’s re-election chances. Confusingly, some polls even show Trump gaining ground


----------



## dutchie (1 September 2020)

dutchie said:


> Can any of you Marxists translate this for me?


----------



## IFocus (1 September 2020)

Sounding more like Trump everyday so whats your point?


----------



## Klogg (1 September 2020)

IFocus said:


> Sounding more like Trump everyday so whats your point?



Trump has no morals or ethics.
Biden has dementia.

Both really bad options, but I prefer the former.


----------



## IFocus (1 September 2020)

Klogg said:


> Trump has no morals or ethics.
> Biden has dementia.
> 
> Both really bad options, but I prefer the former.





Haha I think dementia is safer


----------



## PZ99 (1 September 2020)

Klogg said:


> Trump has no morals or ethics.
> Biden has dementia.
> 
> Both really bad options, but I prefer the former.



I prefer neither - so I would vote to get rid of both.

First vote out Trump - then the other bloke in 4 years if he hasn't fixed himself up before then.

Voting for Trump achieves nothing other than rewarding lack of morals and ethics.

No thankyou.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> I prefer neither - so I would vote to get rid of both.
> 
> First vote out Trump - then the other bloke in 4 years if he hasn't fixed himself up before then.
> 
> ...



You won't get Biden for 4 years, more like 4 weeks.

Then you get Kamala.

That's the worst option of all. 

I'll take the rogue patriot thanks.


----------



## PZ99 (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> You won't get Biden for 4 years, more like 4 weeks.
> 
> Then you get Kamala.
> 
> ...



Even better then. Given that inside knowledge I'll take the 4 weeks option thanks.

Kamala can issue refresher courses of patriotic nerve stimulation for the likes of Abbott and Dutton


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Even better then. Given that inside knowledge I'll take the 4 weeks option thanks.
> 
> Kamala can issue refresher courses of patriotic nerve stimulation for the likes of Abbott and Dutton



So you're doing the mail in?


----------



## PZ99 (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> So you're doing the mail in?



Contrail messaging bro


----------



## dutchie (2 September 2020)

Marxists, leftists, antifa, BLM , Democrats,  now chanting "Death to America".

Wonder if the Marxists, leftists here will be chanting "Death to Australia" soon.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 September 2020)

Klogg said:


> Trump has no morals or ethics.
> Biden has dementia.
> 
> Both really bad options, but I prefer the former.



Two old men neither of whom has any real reason to give a damn about the future since they won't be part of it.

Get. Someone. Younger.

Not 20 years old but someone in their 40's with life experience would be vastly preferable since at least they've got some skin in the game, they'll be around to live with the consequences of their actions.


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Two old men neither of whom has any real reason to give a damn about the future since they won't be part of it.
> 
> Get. Someone. Younger.
> 
> Not 20 years old but someone in their 40's with life experience would be vastly preferable since at least they've got some skin in the game, they'll be around to live with the consequences of their actions.



I understand your point... I'd support someone like Rand Paul for this reason.

But have you acquainted yourself with the Trump 2020 agenda? If not, you should.


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2020)

@Smurf1976 

Some discussion here


----------



## dutchie (3 September 2020)

Professional looters and rioters in Portland have complained that there are no more stores or other places to loot and set on fire.
The Mayor, Ted Wheeler, has formed a group of other Democrat city mayors, in similar situations, to demand action from the Trump administration.
Wheeler, as spokesman for the cities, stated, "There are no more stores in Portland which means that our rioters and looters have nothing to do at night. President Trump must step in and provide more facilities that can be burnt down. They must also be stocked with HD TV's, Laptops, Nike shoes,  and other goods (preferably easy to carry)."
"This will have a detrimental affect on our "Come and see a live Riot" tourism initiative", he screeched.
Meanwhile, Joe Biden, speaking in "Biden jibberish", from his basement, has promised to provide better facilities for the rioters and looters. "We will make sure that we provide multiple new facilities that are stocked with high end goods for our looters and will ensure that these facilities are all made of highly inflammable materials to aid the rioters, whom have previously had difficulties lighting fires.
CNN has supported the Mayors and Biden, stating that its a win/win policy for the Democrats and us.


----------



## dutchie (3 September 2020)

BREAKING: Rumors are surfacing that Vladimir Putin was responsible for tricking Nancy Pelosi into her secret salon appointment.


----------



## dutchie (7 September 2020)




----------



## dutchie (7 September 2020)

The Antifa Fire Dance (accompanied by a Scottish reel).


----------



## dutchie (12 September 2020)

Academy Strips 'Schindler's List' Of Best Picture Award Due To Lack Of Diversity
September 11th, 2020




188SHARE
25SHARE
SHARE
BEVERLY HILLS, CA—The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has stripped _Schindler's List _of its Best Motion Picture award for not having enough LGBTQ+ characters, people of color, and other oppressed groups.


"_Schindler's List _would have been a great movie if it just had a dozen transgendered characters," said Le'Jon de Froofroo, spokesperson for the Academy. "As it is, there are just a bunch of Jews and Germans -- very privileged races."

"Also, the movie has Nazis -- this is the current year, for goodness' sake!"

Steven Spielberg has been ordered by the Academy to re-release the film with an unnecessary LGBTQ+ side plot, a gay roommate for Schindler, and a song and dance number set to a Lady Gaga song over the end credits if he wishes to re-earn the Academy Award. Otherwise, it will be re-awarded to _Brokeback Mountain_.

This is just the first Oscar winner to be stripped of its award, as the Academy has plans to strip the award from over 95% of the winners and give them all to _Brokeback Mountain_.


----------



## sptrawler (15 September 2020)

Interesting article, it supports what I have always found, most indigenous people trying to improve their lot, get racist backlash from their own people. 








						'Not black enough': Ben Wyatt claims racism worse from 'Black Lives Matter' supporters
					

The online racism directed at WA Treasurer Ben Wyatt was "most disgusting" from left-wing supporters of Black Lives Matter protests.




					www.watoday.com.au
				



From the article:

The online racism directed at WA Treasurer Ben Wyatt was "most disgusting" from left-wing supporters of Black Lives Matter protests, who accused him of being "not black enough".

Mr Wyatt, who is also the WA Labor government's Aboriginal Affairs Minister, spoke in support of his cousin and federal Liberal minister Ken Wyatt, who detailed the abuse he received after urging protesters to stay home and not risk the health of the people they were marching to protect.


He said the derogatory terms directed at Ken Wyatt were ones Aboriginal politicians had to deal with for a long period of time.
"I actually found, to be honest, the most disgusting comments that I got were associated with supporters of the Black Lives Matter rallies," he said. "No doubt about it, because there's an element of contempt around the identification that Ken and I have about being Aboriginal."


Ken Wyatt, the federal Indigenous Australians Minister, said he was called a "token Indigenous member", a "coconut", and an "Uncle Tom" earlier this year for urging Black Lives Matter protesters to stay home and not risk the health and safety of the people they were marching to protect.

He said comments included: "You're not black, Ken. You're blue," and: "Resign palm nut."

"It demonstrates nothing other than division, tribalism, disempowerment and the slowing of progress right across the board.
"Be it the left of politics, the right of politics or anywhere in between – if you dare to think differently, do differently or question the norm, you are torn down.
"There is never one right answer; complex situations require the ability to test and question ourselves and the way in which we approach policy making and program delivery."


----------



## dutchie (16 September 2020)

CNN Criticizes Israel, Arab Leaders For Shaking Hands In The Middle Of A Pandemic
September 15th, 2020




SHARE
SHARE
SHARE
WASHINGTON, D.C.—CNN and other media outlets attacked President Trump and foreign leaders this week after footage emerged of Israeli and Arab leaders standing closer than six feet apart and embracing in a peace accord, clearly violating COVID social distancing protocol. Pictures and footage show Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the foreign ministers of UAE and Bahrain completely ignoring social distancing as they smile warmly and shake hands while signing historic peace accords between the three nations. 

"This is simply beyond the pale," said CNN Chief White House Correspondent Jim Acosta. "No one here is social distancing, no one is wearing masks. People are smiling and sitting next to each other. It's a bloodbath here. It's almost as if President Trump is trying to kill these Middle Eastern leaders. This man truly has no shame. Just when you thought this president couldn't stoop any lower, he defies expectations and goes lower. This is truly a day of national embarrassment for this country."
Many critics are questioning Trump's wisdom in trying to negotiate peace in the Middle East during a global pandemic since there are probably way more productive things he could be doing like defunding the police or imposing a national mask mandate. Others are worried that peace in the Middle East could be some sort of a white supremacist dog whistle. Republicans, on the other hand, are pouncing on the critics, most likely because they are soulless jerks who want people to die. 
No one really knows what the peace deal means except that it may make Trump look good, which of course means it's bad.
Unfortunately, the ceremony erupted into chaos, and peace talks collapsed after an argument arose over the correct pronunciation of "gif."


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2020)

Greta and the group are getting into Roger Federer now.








						'Wake up': Fresh twist in Greta Thunberg's spat with Roger Federer
					

Roger Federer has been dragged back into the climate change debate that prompted fierce backlash against the tennis champion.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



I wonder how many of the protesters in the rally drove there and have electricity on in their house? Yet they call out Federer for one of his sponsors.
It really is time they looked in a mirror IMO.


----------



## PZ99 (30 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> I prefer neither - so I would vote to get rid of both.




The performance from both sides in this debate merely reinforces the above view.

It's pathetic.... embarrassing.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (30 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder how many of the protesters in the rally drove there and have electricity on in their house? ...
> It really is time they looked in a mirror IMO.



I can't get behind this argument. Are we expecting these people en-masse to band together to create a widely acceptable/efficient/environmentally-friendly transit system? It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2020)

BlindSquirrel said:


> I can't get behind this argument. Are we expecting these people en-masse to band together to create a widely acceptable/efficient/environmentally-friendly transit system? It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.



No I would just expect them to where possible, lead by example, I travel by bicycle wherever possible and public transport if available.
I dont see many young people using either, yet see many attending rallies to call for change, with regard the climate.
I wonder if it is driven by a desire for change, or just an opportunity to gather and feel a degree of achievement.


----------



## orr (10 October 2020)

Any word on the Mildura Malitia the Fanatical Fabian alliance and afiliated  Commo consortium. Dan Andrew's is that far to the right he's got to be sorted out;  a '_simple _' quick adult-knapping and things will be on a roll.... pressures on, DefCon 1... have got move *now;* it loooks like the Wentworth Wolvirines have been infiltated.
This website and thread are that obscure it's our only safe place .... get back to me operatives.....


----------



## dutchie (14 October 2020)

With Statues Gone, Pigeons Forced To Poop On Rioters
June 23rd, 2020





1.9MShares
1.4MSHARE
193.6kSHARE
SHARE
U.S.—With more and more statues across the country being pulled down, pigeons are being forced to redirect their payloads to different targets.

As soon as statues are pulled down, the pigeons turn toward the nearest available target: angry rioters.
"Yes! Down with racism--AHHHHH!!!!" screamed one rioter just after pulling down a statue of Christopher Columbus. The pigeons immediately turned on him, with a squadron of the birds divebombing him to unload hundreds of pounds worth of excrement. "Run!!!"
Rioters frantically tried to put the statues back up as they were attacked by the feral flocks. "Put Christopher back! Quick!" cried one Antifa group as they were swarmed by a whole fleet of pigeon bombers. But try as they might, their weak liberal arms could not lift the statue and they were forced to flee the scene.




*There are 47 comments on this article.*


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 October 2020)

BlindSquirrel said:


> I can't get behind this argument. Are we expecting these people en-masse to band together to create a widely acceptable/efficient/environmentally-friendly transit system? It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.



It's a reasonable expectation that if someone genuinely opposes something then they won't themselves be doing it.

Someone who's worried about resource use and pollution isn't going to be constantly buying consumer goods and won't be flying first class for example. Not if they're genuinely concerned they won't.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (19 October 2020)

So if you dare to use electricity in your house then you don't get to voice your opinion on climate change?
Only people that can afford an EV and solar panels to feed it may protest! Forget anyone in public housing; they don't get a say!
I may not agree with their message but I won't stick my fingers in my ears because they use the most convenient current method of transport and living. 

Getting back to the original story; I absolutely have a problem with the incessant "cancel culture" that exists nowadays. If something upsets people then it gets expunged from history. All this succeeds in doing is stopping people from learning from the past (and therefore being doomed to repeat it).


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2020)

BlindSquirrel said:


> So if you dare to use electricity in your house then you don't get to voice your opinion on climate change?
> Only people that can afford an EV and solar panels to feed it may protest! Forget anyone in public housing; they don't get a say!
> I may not agree with their message but I won't stick my fingers in my ears because they use the most convenient current method of transport and living.



If you are referring to my comments, I think I obviously phrased my comments incorrectly.
The point I was making, is a lot of people in Australia complain about climate change and global warming, yet do very little to mitigate their own personal power usage, therefore their own usage is contribution to the very problem they are complaining about.
So in reality, are the very same people who complain about our emissions, just wanting to use the same amount of energy but want it to come from a clean source?
Australia with 25million people, uses the same amount of power as Indonesia with 250million people, maybe we are over users and that should be addressed.
In the real world there is nothing for nothing, Australia could reduce its energy consumption quite easily just apply a tax to devices e.g a mobile phone tax, internet connection tax etc, then use that tax to clean up data transmission power supplies.
Every person you see, spends every waking moment on the screen of a phone, communication providers are one of the biggest energy users in Australia.
Whether we use fossil fuel or renewables to provide the energy, if we are massive consumers, something is paying for it, be that the climate with fossil fueled generation or the environment and habitat with renewables and storage.


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2020)

I noticed on the SMH website, the guy with the red handkerchief on his head, has finally taken it off, it must have dawned on him that there are more to things than image and hiding stuff. 😂


----------



## dutchie (27 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I noticed on the SMH website, the guy with the red handkerchief on his head, has finally taken it off, it must have dawned on him that there are more to things than image and hiding stuff. 😂



Maybe he finally realised he looked like a w@nker.


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2020)

dutchie said:


> Maybe he finally realised he looked like a w@nker.



Yes, hopefully the changes continue through to his articles, weird on a lot of levels IMO.


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, hopefully the changes continue through to his articles, weird on a lot of levels IMO.



That is perhaps asking a bit much... a bit like asking Adam Bandt not to be an absolute fruit loop.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (2 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, hopefully the changes continue through to his articles, weird on a lot of levels IMO.




Wasn't he a rugby player in a previous life? Too many knocks to the head maybe.


----------



## wayneL (2 November 2020)

Need I comment?


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2021)

This year has had some awesomely stupid stories of idiocy. But rainbow kinky furries on the paedophile spectrum takes the cake


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2021)

I use to wonder where Qanon got some of their way out conspiracies.



They were madly pulling down stuff from their website. But internet's going to internet.
I'm not sure which part of all of this is the funniest. It's rich on so many levels. 

This is 'peak wokeness'.


----------



## wayneL (14 July 2021)

Elsewhere, in Clownworld:


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2021)

I noticed it's all silent on south Africa. Place is literally burning.

Cuba as well.

The world definitely looks in 'reset mode'.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I noticed it's all silent on south Africa. Place is literally burning.



Yep it's all good, now they have got rid of the white trash.








						‘Hell’: Chaos as country erupts
					

Troops have been deployed in South Africa after at least 45 people were killed in rioting and deadly stampedes sparked by the jailing of ex-president Jacob Zuma.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2021)

Things have stepped up a notch in South Africa.








						South Africa deploys 25,000 troops to quell riots and ‘strategic destruction’
					

In one of the largest deployments of soldiers since the end of white minority rule, the military has been activate to halt riots that have killed more than 100 people.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## IFocus (17 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Things have stepped up a notch in South Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So are you saying Zuma is left? Or his supporters are left? Or the SA government is left?


----------



## rederob (17 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> So are you saying Zuma is left? Or his supporters are left? Or the SA government is left?



I think he might be saying that only the lunatics are left.


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2021)

Im just posting reports, in response to someone raising the SA issue, I have no idea of the politics there, just that it is a bad situation


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2021)

The thing I find interesting about the 'left', they don't accept anything other than complete capitulation of the other side, no matter what the issue is.
It is either accept everything we say as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or so help you God.
There is no middle ground in their argument, it is their way or the highway.
It really is an interesting phenomena, it is passive aggressive on steroids, yet in reality it is no better than extreme right wing.
Thank god most of the population fall in the middle. 🤣
My guess is the Left are buying the most papers at the moment. 
The problem with that is, it disenfranchises a lot more of the middle ground and ends up alienating the very people they are trying to influence.
Just my opinion, but the time is fast approaching where the question will be asked, "Are the people you elected running the country, or are the reporters and the media running the country"?
If people decide it's the media, why pay tax? 😂 
It will be an interesting confrontation IMO.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The thing I find interesting about the 'left', they don't accept anything other than complete capitulation of the other side, no matter what the issue is.
> It is either accept everything we say as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or so help you God.
> There is no middle ground in their argument, it is their way or the highway.
> It really is an interesting phenomena, it is passive aggressive on steroids, yet in reality it is no better than extreme right wing.
> ...



I think you are confused about what it means to be on the "left".
Guiding principles include:

equality
fairness 
mutual respect, and 
social advancement
If there is a middle ground to these principles, it would necessitate they be watered down.
If you are talking about the far left, then you might as well be talking about the far right, as their radicalisations do not uphold the principles of the left or right, respectively.
Your ideas about the media remain interesting. Murdoch media dominates our formal landscape, and social media is a grab bag of opinions across the spectrum.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The thing I find interesting about the 'left', they don't accept anything other than complete capitulation of the other side, no matter what the issue is.
> It is either accept everything we say as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or so help you God.
> There is no middle ground in their argument, it is their way or the highway.





Like what?

And please don't quote some extreme nut case / academic etc they do not represent a progressive left view.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Like what?
> 
> And please don't quote some extreme nut case / academic etc they do not represent a progressive left view.



You, bas, red, and that's just here on ASF


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Like what?
> 
> And please don't quote some extreme nut case / academic etc they do not represent a progressive left view.



Like the crucifixion of Israel Folau and Margaret Court, over their differing opinion on homosexuality, to the 'progressive' left. 
Strongly and ably supported by the left leaning, in the media.


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> You, bas, red, and that's just here on ASF



He did say to exclude extreme nut cases, that probably includes those with head injuries. 🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Like the crucifixion of Israel Folau and Margaret Court, over their differing opinion on homosexuality, to the 'progressive' left.
> Strongly and ably supported by the left leaning, in the media.




I'd just like to point out that there is an 'economic' Left and a 'social' Left, one can be one without being the other.

I would identify as being economic Left, although not all that far Left, but I'm a bit more conservative when it comes to social values.

I'd say though that those of the  social Left would not be likely to be economically conservative.


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> .
> 
> I'd say though that those of the  social Left would not be likely to be economically conservative.



No, they are usually just rich.
I would class myself, similar to your description.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd just like to point out that there is an 'economic' Left and a 'social' Left, one can be one without being the other.
> 
> I would identify as being economic Left, although not all that far Left, but I'm a bit more conservative when it comes to social values.
> 
> I'd say though that those of the  social Left would not be likely to be economically conservative.



It's a great point that none of us should ever forget. I also tread along conundrous(sic) line, being economically near right and socially near left.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> No, they are usually just rich.




There are a lot on the Left who aren't rich and don't want anyone else to be either.


----------



## macca (21 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> There are a lot on the Left who aren't rich and don't want anyone else to be either.




Usually the poorer folk are the lefties that espouse "we are all equal and should share our wealth, just put your money into my bank account and we can be friends"

Work ? don't you swear at me, that is a passive aggressive statement !


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Like the crucifixion of Israel Folau and Margaret Court, over their differing opinion on homosexuality, to the 'progressive' left.
> Strongly and ably supported by the left leaning, in the media.



Folau and Court are bigots under every definition of the word, and they have openly preached their bigotry in the literal sense.
Harmonious societies have no room for bigotry.
Segments of the media that explained their bigotry should be applauded.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Harmonious societies have no room for bigotry.




Bigotry is a personal opinion.

I don't agree with what Folau said, but he had a right to say it without being sacked.

I may think that a lot of what you say is bigoted, but I'm not running around saying you should lose your job for saying it.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Bigotry is a personal opinion.
> 
> I don't agree with what Folau said, but he had a right to say it without being sacked.
> 
> I may think that a lot of what you say is bigoted, but I'm not running around saying you should lose your job for saying it.



Really?
Is the meaning of all words "personal"?
Since when?
I won't reopen the Folau debate, but bigotry is of itself not against the law.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Really?
> Is the meaning of all words "personal"?
> Since when?
> I won't reopen the Folau debate, but bigotry is of itself not against the law.




Straw man argument. 

If anything is said against a minority people can cry 'racism and bigotry' because they don't like what was said rather than examine the merits of the statement.

I refer you to the Queensland University case.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Straw man argument.
> 
> If anything is said against a minority people can cry 'racism and bigotry' because they don't like what was said rather than examine the merits of the statement.
> 
> I refer you to the Queensland University case.



Completely false.
To begin, my point cannot be a straw man argument as it directly contradicts your claim.
Next, people can claim many things but they also need to substantiate them.  Folau and Court made comments which are unequivocally bigoted, and that is not a matter of opinion, but of definition. The descriptors could have been favourable, balanced, or prejudicial.  No reasonable person would regard the first two descriptors as appropriate.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Folau and Court made comments which are unequivocally bigoted,




Folau and Court made comments according to their religion.

As I said I don't agree with what they said but I support their right to say it.

Your statement "Harmonious societies have no room for bigotry" is itself a bigoted statement because it attacks the right to free speech which we all have and suggests that certain statements should be made illegal. There is no room for that in a free society.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Like the crucifixion of Israel Folau and Margaret Court, over their differing opinion on homosexuality, to the 'progressive' left.
> Strongly and ably supported by the left leaning, in the media.





So you wish to stop freedom of expression critical of public figures?

The media shouldn't report this?

Fox Media might have a problem with that!

Note they were both dealing with conservative organisations or are you saying rugby and tennis are bastions of left wing extremist?


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Folau and Court made comments according to their religion.
> 
> As I said I don't agree with what they said but I support their right to say it.
> 
> Your statement "Harmonious societies have no room for bigotry" is itself a bigoted statement because it attacks the right to free speech which we all have and suggests that certain statements should be made illegal. There is no room for that in a free society.



You will never have harmonious society, when one sector is ostracized for their beliefs, it rings back to Nazi Germany.
To live harmoniously, society has to accept that different sectors will have different beliefs, the homosexuals gained legal acceptance. That doesn't mean that religions have to change their scriptures, to agree with the practice.
There is a difference between acceptance and converting everyone, both parties have equal rights to their beliefs.
One has to wonder who is the worse bigot, (1) the christians for their beliefs, or (2) the the parties who believe they shouldn't be allowed to have their beliefs.
Bigotry:
(1)obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular,(2) prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> So you wish to stop freedom of expression critical of public figures?
> 
> The media shouldn't report this?
> 
> ...



I can't follow what you are getting at, what I was saying was Folau and Court had every right to preach their religion, to those who wished to listen to it.
The press and the left leaning mob, took it upon themselves to gag people preaching what they believe and have believed for years.
They then took it to another level and attempted to ban a person from gaining employment in his given trade for life, for his beliefs.
If you find that acceptable, well that is fine, I personally am not that vindictive and actually find it pretty repulsive, when there is a concerted push to force a person to change their beliefs.
I would have the same problem if it happened to you, I have actually seen mob rule at a power station and it isn't attractive, once in the 1970's when a young bloke was being forced into joining the union and in the 1990's when a union tried to force another union to shut the station down.
The only difference now is, the mob has a venue, which is the media which loves confrontation and chaos.
Just my opinion.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Folau and Court made comments according to their religion.
> 
> As I said I don't agree with what they said but I support their right to say it.
> 
> Your statement "Harmonious societies have no room for bigotry" is itself a bigoted statement because it attacks the right to free speech which we all have and suggests that certain statements should be made illegal. There is no room for that in a free society.



I think you need lessons in comprehension and logic.
It is impossible for my statement to be bigoted as it is a statement of fact.  
Furthermore, there is no right to free speech in Australia, and that ground has been ploughed dozens of times.
Finally, I made the point earlier that bigotry is of itself *not unlawful, *so your final remark is again false.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2021)

rederob said:


> t is impossible for my statement to be bigoted as it is a statement of fact.




If your statement is a matter of fact, then prove it.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If your statement is a matter of fact, then prove it.



You tacitly proved it when you liked @sptrawler's post above.
Because you appear not to accept that words have meaning and are constructs of opinion, then it is impossible to prove anything to you.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> You tacitly proved it when you liked @sptrawler's post above.
> Because you appear not to accept that words have meaning and are constructs of *opinion,* then it is impossible to prove anything to you.




Opinions aren't necessarily facts are they ?


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Opinions aren't necessarily facts are they ?



This was your claim:


SirRumpole said:


> Bigotry is a personal opinion.



If *bigotry *means something then logic dictates it is beyond being a personal *opinion*.
If you don't accept that, so be it.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I can't follow what you are getting at, what I was saying was Folau and Court had every right to preach their religion, to those who wished to listen to it.



Revisit the Folau thread.  Folau admitted to RA that he breached his contract.  If Folau's contract to play rugby conditioned that he abide by rules of conduct that required he respect the beliefs and practices of other players then he should have acted within that undertaking.  RA made clear that his religion per se was not at issue, it was his actions.


sptrawler said:


> The press and the left leaning mob, took it upon themselves to gag people preaching what they believe and have believed for years.



There is no evidence this happened.  Most people remain unhappy with bigots and that sentiment was echoed in the media.  Folau and Court continued to do as they did previously.


sptrawler said:


> They then took it to another level and attempted to ban a person from gaining employment in his given trade for life, for his beliefs.



Who is your "they"?  RA, which is far removed from anything "left leaning", had an organisational obligation to act as it did.  Brands, such as QANTAS and other also have no left leaning, and they did not want to be associated with RA if its pinup was a bigot.  Folau made himself a commercial liability to any future employer.


sptrawler said:


> If you find that acceptable, well that is fine, I personally am not that vindictive and actually find it pretty repulsive, when there is a concerted push to force a person to change their beliefs.



The problem with your case is that there are people being harmed by the likes of Folau and Court because their natural sexual preferences differ from *imaginary *biblical beliefs.  Nothing prevents you or I, or Court or Folau, from believing whatever they want.  Foisting those beliefs into the public arena where they cause harm to others is not helpful.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> The problem with your case is that there are people being* harmed *by the likes of Folau and Court because their natural sexual preferences differ from *imaginary *biblical beliefs.




What 'harm' ?

Those affected can simply laugh off the claims made by religious people. There is no evidence that actual harm is being done.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> What 'harm' ?
> 
> Those affected can simply laugh off the claims made by religious people. There is no evidence that actual harm is being done.



There is a wealth of research suggesting you have no idea about this topic.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> There is a wealth of research suggesting you have no idea about this topic.




I would suggest that the recent plebiscite on SSM has shown that the country has largely moved on.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I would suggest that the recent plebiscite on SSM has shown that the country has largely moved on.



Create a thread on this if you are that interested, because this one is about the lunatic left.
However, the fact that over 38% of voters did not support SSM tells me that bigotry is alive and well in Australia.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Create a thread on this if you are that interested,




I'm not.

But some gay and feminist campaigners could be described as loony Leftists.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Revisit the Folau thread.  Folau admitted to RA that he breached his contract.  If Folau's contract to play rugby conditioned that he abide by rules of conduct that required he respect the beliefs and practices of other players then he should have acted within that undertaking.  RA made clear that his religion per se was not at issue, it was his actions.
> 
> There is no evidence this happened.  Most people remain unhappy with bigots and that sentiment was echoed in the media.  Folau and Court continued to do as they did previously.
> 
> ...



Court and Folau were quoted, from sermons they gave to a congregation behind closed doors, that was leaked to the press, then the blood lust hit and the media hounded and challenged them to get the headline.
Qantas was being vindictive, as their pin up boy is homosexual  and used their financial clout in a personal vendetta. If that is how we are going to gag and punish people, who don't agree with your personal sexual bent or have differing views, Australia is becoming a very sad place.
Also it takes Bigotry to a whole new level.
With Court, there was a concerted effort to have sporting awards stripped from her, for her personal religious beliefs, by the gay sector of the tennis world.
So who are the bigots, the ones who hold religious beliefs, or those who would try and crucify them, for having those beliefs?
The loony left think they have a monopoly on self righteousness, when in reality we are just having history repeat.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Court and Folau were quoted, from sermons they gave to a congregation behind closed doors, that was leaked to the press then the blood lust hit.
> Qantas was being vindictive, as their pin up boy is homosexual  and used their financial clout in a personal vendetta. If that is how we are going to gag and punish people, who don't agree with your personal sexual bent or have differing views, Australia is becoming a very sad place.
> Also it takes Bigotry to a whole new level.



What don't you want to admit?
Court and Folau are bigots.  
Both put their views into the public arena.
Neither are prevented from holding their views or making them public.
And bigotry does not have levels, just as rape has none.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> What don't you want to admit?
> Court and Folau are bigots.
> Both put their views into the public arena.
> Neither are prevented from holding their views or making them public.
> And bigotry does not have levels, just as rape has none.



I never said they weren't bigots, but no more so than the ones who would try to use financial and media pressure to punish them, bigotry isn't a crime it is an unattractive trait that as I have shown most have.
It isn't a competition, as some would like to have us believe.
It shows a lack of self appraisal when bigots, use bigotry to suppress bigots, that don't agree with them. 🤣


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I never said they weren't bigots, but no more so than the ones who would try to use financial and media pressure to punish them, bigotry isn't a crime it is an unattractive trait that as I have shown most have.



Protecting yourself from bigotry cannot be bigotry!
Why is this so hard to understand?


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Protecting yourself from bigotry cannot be bigotry!
> Why is this so hard to understand?



I guess it is the reason, why you can't admit you could be mistaken in your view, sometimes there isn't common ground.
Punishing people for their personal and lawful religious views, is persecution, which is a form of bigotry. Why is that so hard to understand.
Just because you don't agree with something, doesn't always mean you are right and the other person is wrong, sometimes humility is an attractive trait.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Protecting yourself from bigotry cannot be bigotry!
> Why is this so hard to understand?



Bigotry is just words. People can fight back with words, not using the resources of the State or powerful organisations to protect onself from another's right to express their opinions.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I guess it is the reason, why you can't admit you could be mistaken in your view, sometimes there isn't common ground.
> Punishing people for their personal and lawful religious views, is persecution, which is a form of bigotry. Why is that so hard to understand.



Please tell us all how protecting oneself from bigotry is wrong, or why organisations should not also act to remove it when they are able.
*You* have already written in this thread that  bigotry is conducive to harmony in society.
Apparently you now believe that acting to remove bigotry is a form of punishment to the bigot.  Yet bigotry negatively affects the opposite party, so what you are saying does not add up.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Bigotry is just words. People can fight back with words, not using the resources of the State or powerful organisations to protect onself from another's right to express their opinions.



There is no evidence that your claim is accurate, and you refuse to acknowledge the medical literature which is unequivocal.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> *You* have already written in this thread that  bigotry is *not *conducive to harmony in society.



I wonder if @Joe Blow can give us more than 20 minutes to fix our (*my*) really bad mistakes!


----------



## Joe Blow (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> I wonder if @Joe Blow can give us more than 20 minutes to fix our (*my*) really bad mistakes!




It's set to 30 minutes at the moment. Just get into the habit of reading your posts through in full right after you post them. I do it religiously and manage to fix about 90-95% of errors. There are always some you miss, even after proofreading, and you will miss those irrespective of how much editing time there is.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Please tell us all how protecting oneself from bigotry is wrong, or why organisations should not also act to remove it when they are able.
> *You* have already written in this thread that  bigotry is conducive to harmony in society.
> Apparently you now believe that acting to remove bigotry is a form of punishment to the bigot.  Yet bigotry negatively affects the opposite party, so what you are saying does not add up.



There is nothing wrong with protecting oneself from bigotry, the issue is what is fair and reasonable force,* I can't understand why you can't grasp that. 🤣*
As I have tried to explain to you, it isn't against the law to recite the bible, the bible is actually fundamental to the laws of our land.
If some of those scriptures are found offensive by some, so be it, but to try and punish someone for reciting them actually would border on illegal, as Rugby Australia nearly found out.
For Qantas to use financial pressure, to stop a person from being able to actively pursue their profession, due to their religious beliefs, is as bigoted as those who disagree with someone's homosexual leanings.
It appears from your statements, only one side can be seen as a bigot, the other side has carte blanche, to act any way they see fit and are free of repercussions.
As usual, we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There is nothing wrong with protecting oneself from bigotry, the issue is what is fair and reasonable force, I can't understand why you can't grasp that.



No force was ever applied so I have no idea what you are talking about now, aside from not being an appropriate thread.
Furthermore, bigotry is bigotry.  There are no sides or levels to bigotry.
I have no idea what you think you are disagreeing with as your points are sometimes inaccurate when they are otherwise not logical.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> *No force was ever applied* so I have no idea what you are talking about now, aside from not being an appropriate thread.
> Furthermore, bigotry is bigotry.  There are no sides or levels to bigotry.
> I have no idea what you think you are disagreeing with as your points are sometimes inaccurate when they are otherwise not logical.



I see both parties as having rights, you see only one party as having rights, that's fine.
By the way force doesn't have to be of a physical nature, it can be media pressure, it can be social pressure, it can be financial pressure, but as usual your reluctance to acceptance an alternative to your view is an issue.
We have to agree to disagree, the discussion is becoming circular and going nowhere as usual.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I see both parties as having rights, you see only one party as having rights, that's fine.
> By the way force doesn't have to be of a physical nature, it can be media pressure, it can be social pressure, it can be financial pressure, but as usual your reluctance to acceptance reality is an issue.
> Like I said, we as usual have to agree to disagree, the discussion is becoming circular and going nowhere as usual.



You have a right to be bigoted, and express bigoted views - it's not unlawful -  just as those affected by such views can act to protect themselves from them.
Your posts suggest that those acting to protect themselves are wrong in doing so.  Am I misreading you?


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> You have a right to be bigoted, and express bigoted views - it's not unlawful -  just as those affected by such views can act to protect themselves from them.
> Your posts suggest that those acting to protect themselves are wrong in doing so.  Am I misreading you?



As was proven by Rugby Australia paying millions of dollars to Folau rather than go to court, any action taken against a person has to be taken in context and has to be seen as fair and reasonable in that context.
The same as when someone finds a person breaking into their house and attacks the criminal, if that criminal is injured, the force used becomes a crime in itself and if undue force is found to have been used it is an offence.
People can protect themselves, but in doing so it has to be fair, reasonable and suitable to the circumstances..
The real issue appears to be an emotional one, as I said I have no interest either way, I'm just stating the obvious.
People who have an emotional attachment to either side of an issue, are going to support that side, that's human it doesn't make it right.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> People who have an emotional attachment to either side of an issue, are going to support that side, that's human it doesn't make it right.




Absolutely. You can imagine the stink that would be raised if a Labor supporter expressed views opposite to that of his employer and got the sack for it.

Hypocrisy abounds in this debate.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely. You can imagine the stink that would be raised if a Labor supporter expressed views opposite to that of his employer and got the sack for it.
> 
> Hypocrisy abounds in this debate.



That's life and the very reason laws are made, they try and remove the emotion from the issue, if that didn't happen every minority pressure group would be running amok and deciding what is fair and reasonable.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As was proven by Rugby Australia paying millions of dollars to Folau rather than go to court, any action taken against a person has to be taken in context and has to be seen as fair and reasonable in that context.
> The same as when someone finds a person breaking into their house and attacks the criminal, if that criminal is injured, the force used becomes a crime in itself and if undue force is found to have been used it is an offence.
> People can protect themselves, but in doing so it has to be fair, reasonable and suitable to the circumstances..
> The real issue appears to be an emotional one, as I said I have no interest either way, I'm just stating the obvious.
> People who have an emotional attachment to either side of an issue, are going to support that side, that's human it doesn't make it right.



Folau was terminated due to a breach of the players' code of conduct - an offence he admitted to.
*Folau chose to protect his bigotry* with the pretense his free speech was violated and it was *he *who acted against RA - the *opposite* of your contention!  This is old ground.
The parties settled.  
You are implying that RA acted unreasonably, but that is nowhere evident. 
Commercial interests literally cannot afford to be associated with bigotry and their actions were prudent.
I am sure people affected by overt bigotry get emotional, but I completely disagree that it is the "real issue" as you say.  The real issue as I see it is the proven harm that bigotry causes.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Folau was terminated due to a breach of the players' code of conduct - an offence he admitted to.
> *Folau chose to protect his bigotry* with the pretense his free speech was violated and it was *he *who acted against RA - the *opposite* of your contention!  This is old ground.
> The parties settled.
> You are implying that RA acted unreasonably, but that is nowhere evident.
> ...



Your stance is emotional, which again is fine, whether it would stand up in court is questionable, as was proven by the payout and supported by the recent NRL decission not to follow RA lead.


----------



## IFocus (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Your stance is emotional, which again is fine, whether it would stand up in court is questionable, as was proven by the payout and supported by the recent NRL decission not to follow RA lead.





Not so Rob has been very logical IMHO.

Both Folau and Court made public statements (there was no leaking to the media) on their beliefs and interpretation of text 2000 years old that was not supported across the religious divide not that it matters, but it targeted a minority group without any thought as to the consequences affecting that group.

*Both are very public figures plus millionaires and are not without wealth, influence, power, connections.*

It would have be a shock perhaps to both that such conservative organisations actually also took unbridged against their public statements.

The world / Australia have moved on and I note the younger generation (at least the ones I speak to) don't hold to your view and are not interested in such an archaic position of protecting the privileged against the interests of the vulnerable.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> *Both are very public figures plus millionaires and are not without wealth, influence, power, connections.*




They are individuals and had the weight of all the vested interest lobby groups yelling in their faces, I wouldn't call it an equal fight.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Your stance is emotional, which again is fine, whether it would stand up in court is questionable, as was proven by the payout.



The payout had zip to do with the unequivocal fact that Folau is a bigot.
There is no emotion to this point and it is not a matter of opinion.
Your claims have been variously inaccurate and illogical.
Both Folau and Court made bigoted comments that were expressed in public media.
Furthermore QANTAS had no say in Folau's employability, and RA only terminated his contract, never banning him from playing rugby.
Margaret Court remains able to continue her bigoted sermons unaffected - she has never been gagged as you claimed. Nor was there ever any attempt to strip Court of any awards she received:  her non-inclusive views were not regarded as appropriate by many for a tennis arena to bear her name.
The Bible is not fundamental to the laws of our land. 
Unlike your claim, I agree that people have a personal right to their bigotry.  Just as I think it natural that when expressed publicly by prominent figures it causes proven harms.
Maybe that puts me left of centre, but I can't think of any redeeming features to bigotry that warrant a different perspective.
So let's go back to where this started:


sptrawler said:


> The thing I find interesting about the 'left', they don't accept anything other than complete capitulation of the other side...



... and tell me about the positive features of bigotry that I appear to have overlooked, because I am presently not convinced there are any.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

Presumably Margaret Court has continued with her sermons, it is only that the loonie left has moved on, that it isnt still in the media.
The circus continues.lol


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> The payout had zip to do with the unequivocal fact that Folau is a bigot.
> There is no emotion to this point and it is not a matter of opinion.
> Your claims have been variously inaccurate and illogical.
> Both Folau and Court made bigoted comments that were expressed in public media.
> ...



All you have to do is read through the length of our debate, I gave numerous examples, arguments and facts to support my points.
You on the other hand added nothing other than try and deride my points and somehow try and use straw man statements that were emotionally sourced, rather than factually based.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Not so Rob has been very logical IMHO.
> 
> Both Folau and Court made public statements (there was no leaking to the media) on their beliefs and interpretation of text 2000 years old that was not supported across the religious divide not that it matters, but it targeted a minority group without any thought as to the consequences affecting that group.
> 
> ...



Nicely said, despite saying very little, what has the fact that they are public figures or their monetary status have to do with anything, other than trying to use that to in some way demean them?
The law is the law, RA ended up in a lot of manure over the issue, not only did they have to give a multi million dollar settlement, many are no longer with RA.
I understand the world has moved on, fortunately not far enough that vocal minority groups have over taken civil law, unfair dismissal laws were introduced so that powerful employers couldn't use excessive punishment in an ad hock fashion as they saw fit.
See the bullying in your last sentence, the goto fall back position, I haven't demeaned anyone, I've just stated facts as Rob would say.
You are the one bullying and making aspersions against me, based on your personal belief, nothing changes the left is the left and underlines my statement about not being happy until complete capitulation of the other party.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> All you have to do is read through the length of our debate, I gave numerous examples, arguments and facts to support my points.
> You on the other hand added nothing other than try and deride my points and somehow try and use straw man statements that were emotionally sourced, rather than factually based.



I pointed out your numerous inaccuracies and errors of logic along the way and wonder what it is about bigotry that you want me to accept.
You seem unable to explain this.
Neither you nor @SirRumpole seem to know what a strawman argument is, and the reality is that you both have used it in making your points.  For example the settlement between Folau and RA relates to the complete opposite of what you have been talking about, as it was based on a push by Falau to claim his sacking was due to a right to free speech based on his bigoted commentary. 
You further believe it is wrong that the media and members of the public speak out about bigotry, and claim this is a use of "force" or "pressure".  I personally find this remarkable, especially when you go on to accuse @IFocus of bullying when he suggests you are out of touch.  I suspect @SirRumpole might regard that as being a rather delicate position to hold, petal.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> You further believe it is wrong that the media and members of the public speak out about bigotry, and claim this is a use of "force" or "pressure".




People have a right to speak out about what they see as bigotry, the wrongful action is that individuals are deprived of their trade or employment for expressing an opinion. 

Why you cannot see that this is wrong escapes me. Words can be dealt with by words without having to end up in court.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Not so Rob has been very logical IMHO.
> 
> Both Folau and Court made public statements (there was no leaking to the media) on their beliefs and interpretation of text 2000 years old that was not supported across the religious divide not that it matters, but it targeted a minority group without any thought as to the consequences affecting that group.
> 
> ...





rederob said:


> I pointed out your numerous inaccuracies and errors of logic along the way and wonder what it is about bigotry that you want me to accept.
> You seem unable to explain this.
> Neither you nor @SirRumpole seem to know what a strawman argument is, and the reality is that you both have used it in making your points.  For example the settlement between Folau and RA relates to the complete opposite of what you have been talking about, as it was based on a push by Falau to claim his sacking was due to a right to free speech based on his bigoted commentary.
> You further believe it is wrong that the media and members of the public speak out about bigotry, and claim this is a use of "force" or "pressure".  I personally find this remarkable, especially when you go on to accuse @IFocus of bullying when he suggests you are out of touch.  I suspect @SirRumpole might regard that as being a rather delicate position to hold, petal.



As can be seen in the IFocus quote, he actually said I have a stance that favours the privileged against the vulnerable, that is just another ridiculous statement and is only pulled out of the butt to try and demean my argument and paint me in an uncaring and selfish light. Which boils back to bullying and is as far from the truth as possible, but is a tried and proven method of some sectors.
Another ridiculous part while we are on the IFocus post was the statement:
Both Folau and Court made public statements (there was no leaking to the media) on their beliefs and interpretation of text 2000 years old that was not supported across the religious divide not that it matters, but it targeted a minority group without any thought as to the consequences affecting that group.
1. If there was no leak to the media, it wouldn't have got air play, Court and Folau didn't chase the media to splurt it out, the media chased them.
2. The 2000 year old text is probably interpreted every Sunday at least, so if it targeted a minority group why not take on the Church and have the offending text removed? As for targeting a minority group, you can't get much smaller a minority group than two Court and Folau.

As for you pointing out anything, far from it you have made baseless points of disagreement, to the facts I have posted.
If RA had every right to sack Folau for breach of contract, they would not have given him millions of dollars they could ill afford, to try a palm it off as some sort of gift is the sort of nonsense argument you provide.
I have no problem with people and the media speaking out about bigotry, what I take exception to is the demonic pursuit of said bigots in a frenzied mob like manner. That does nothing to further the cause of the minority, it IMO just further alienates them from the middle ground, as it paints them in fanatic light.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> People have a right to speak out about what they see as bigotry, the wrongful action is that individuals are deprived of their trade or employment for expressing an opinion.
> 
> Why you cannot see that this is wrong escapes me. Words can be dealt with by words without having to end up in court.



Please rewrite that into a sense as I have no idea what you mean.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Please rewrite that into a sense as I have no idea what you mean.



No point really, you clearly lack comprehension skills.


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

I'm loving the ignore feature of this forum.

But it is fun knowing who all these responses are to LMAO.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As can be seen in the IFocus quote, he actually said I have a stance that favours the privileged against the vulnerable, that is just another ridiculous statement and is only pulled out of the butt to try and demean my argument and paint me in an uncaring and selfish light.



His comment relates to young people not holding such an archaic position, and not sharing your views.  I cannot follow your argument as it does not seem to make sense.


sptrawler said:


> Both Folau and Court made public statements (there was no leaking to the media) on their beliefs and interpretation of text 2000 years old that was not supported across the religious divide not that it matters, but it targeted a minority group without any thought as to the consequences affecting that group.
> 1. If there was no leak to the media, it wouldn't have got air play, Court and Folau didn't chase the media to splurt it out, the media chased them.



I read Folau's comments on social media and Court's in an article from an interview with Reuters. 
The media simply followed up on what they put out there.


sptrawler said:


> 2. The 2000 year old text is probably interpreted every Sunday at least, so if it targeted a minority group why not take on the Church and have the offending text removed? As for targeting a minority group, you can't get much smaller a minority group than two Court and Folau.



This point is exactly what constitutes a strawman argument.


sptrawler said:


> As for you pointing out anything, far from it you have made baseless points of disagreement, to the facts I have posted.



Ok, show where Folau was banned from playing rugby, or Court was gagged, for starters.
I have a long list that goes back to the Folau thread that I never bothered replying to.


sptrawler said:


> If RA had every right to sack Folau for breach of contract, they would not have given him millions of dollars they could ill afford, to try a palm it off as some sort of gift is the sort of nonsense argument you provide.



Another strawman argument.  Either work it out or PM me. 


sptrawler said:


> I have no problem with people and the media speaking out about bigotry, what I take exception to is the demonic pursuit of said bigots in a frenzied mob like manner. That does nothing to further the cause of the minority, it IMO just further alienates them from the middle ground, as it paints them in fanatic light.



I agree.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No point really, you clearly lack comprehension skills.



But, inter alia, you said this:


SirRumpole said:


> Words can be dealt with by words without having to end up in court.



Yet Folau instigated court action against RA, so what you said cannot make sense.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Yet Folau instigated court action against RA, so what you said cannot make sense.




I thought your comprehension was weak.

Folau took RA to court for the *action of sacking him*, not for anything they said.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> His comment relates to young people not holding such an archaic position, and not sharing your views.  I cannot follow your argument as it does not seem to make sense.



I need go no further, you are again misrepresenting something.

The IFocus quote:
_The world / Australia have moved on and I note the younger generation (at least the ones I speak to) don't hold to your view and are not interested in such an archaic position of protecting the privileged against the interests of the vulnerable_.

If you don't think that is attempting to paint me in an uncaring light, your struggle to follow the debate is understandable, also your lack of seeing anything other than your own point of view now becomes obvious.
I doubt anyone while having a discussion with IFocus or yourself, would have the courage to say anything, other than what you wanted to hear, the result wouldn't be worth the angst.
Cheers.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought your comprehension was weak.
> 
> Folau took RA to court for the *action of sacking him*, not for anything they said.



What he did was use social media in breach of a commercial contract he entered into, and which he acknowledged occurred.
I do not know how you have confused contract law with mere words.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I need go no further, you are again misrepresenting something.
> 
> The IFocus quote:
> _The world / Australia have moved on and I note the younger generation (at least the ones I speak to) don't hold to your view and are not interested in such an archaic position of protecting the privileged against the interests of the vulnerable_.
> ...



Given that I have not been backward in agreeing with some of your points it is unfair to suggest I have another agenda.
How many times will you avoid explaining the positive features of bigotry that I appear to have overlooked, because apparently I have taken "sides".
I am keenly interested in this "other side" as apparently we lefties demand your complete capitulation and I don't know what you will be capitulating.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

I think we have done it to death, people reading through the posts can decide as to the veracity of both sides of the debate, as I said earlier time to agree to disagree and move on.


----------



## IFocus (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think we have done it to death, people reading through the posts can decide as to the veracity of both sides of the debate, as I said earlier time to agree to disagree and move on.





Haha...nope that means I am right and you are left or wrong.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Haha...nope that means I am right and you are left or wrong.



Apparently they think we need them to *capitulate *to our "side", which has no room for bigotry.
Despite asking several times, they have no response to what it is they would capitulate.
The best I can work out is that they only see *bigotry *in terms of "different opinions".
@SirRumpole even stated that bigotry is an *opinion*.
I am open to arguments that apparent leftist ideas of fairness and equality are not sound, and will jump "sides" if so.
That would put to bed this proposition:


sptrawler said:


> The thing I find interesting about the 'left', they don't accept anything other than complete capitulation of the other side, no matter what the issue is.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2021)

rederob said:


> I am open to arguments that apparent leftist ideas of fairness and equality are not sound, and will jump "sides" if so.




I never said ideas of equality and fairness are "not sound", it's a matter of what you want to do to "enforce" your version of Utopia.

Silencing dissent is as obnoxious as racism in my view.

Opinions can be fought with other opinions not with Draconian legislation or sanctions robbing people of their rights to earn a living.

Totalitarianism is apparently what you want, anyone who disagrees with you must be crushed.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I never said ideas of equality and fairness are "not sound", it's a matter of what you want to do to "enforce" your version of Utopia.
> 
> Silencing dissent is as obnoxious as racism in my view.
> 
> ...



You seem unwilling to accept we have laws that govern what we are able to say "freely", and these are not about any version of Utopia.
For the umteenth time, neither Folau nor Court were silenced.
You are wanting to rehash matters of other threads where you never once showed where there were laws that supported your views.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2021)

rederob said:


> You seem unwilling to accept we have laws that govern what we are able to say "freely", and these are not about any version of Utopia.




That is exactly the problem, laws that restrict freedom of speech.

You don't think that's a problem, I disagree.

Our rights are being constrained by Leftists like you.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Our rights are being constrained by Leftists



This is the jist of it. Using strong arm tactics that end up failing when the law is applied.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> That is exactly the problem, laws that restrict freedom of speech.
> 
> You don't think that's a problem, I disagree.
> 
> Our rights are being constrained by Leftists like you.



I don't make the laws of our land, and we haven't had a truly leftist government since Whitlam.
Your idea that I or any leftist is able to constrain what you can say belongs to the lunatic fringe.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2021)

rederob said:


> I don't make the laws of our land, and we haven't had a truly leftist government since Whitlam.
> Your idea that I or any leftist is able to constrain what you can say belongs to the lunatic fringe.



Sleeping giants and various other organisations would disagree.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2021)

I'd say Coates is about to find out and have to walk back comments whether he wants to or not.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

There is literally nothing else I could add to this.


----------



## IFocus (23 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Our rights are being constrained by Leftists like you.





What?

It was the left through unions and organised labour that gave life to protest and changed many laws that up hold exactly what you are claiming.

In Australia there is nothing in the Constitution re freedom of speech it only exists if at all because of the high court implies it for political communication 

Guess what under pins that?

Human rights protections and Australia's anti-discrimination law.

There is nothing being constrained, there is a right to voice an opinion for or against and in Australia its often the court of the Australia public that decides the issues.

In the case's of Folau and Court  they lost the case going by the LGBT marriage vote.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

Leftist maths... Particularly note the hilarious correction LMAO


----------



## wayneL (20 November 2021)

Rittenhouse found not guilty. (Great verdict!)

The lunatic left confirms they are batshyte crazy (and outright liars).


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

You should try writing rationally rather than always having to use a "label" to make a point.

What Rittenhouse did would *not *have been possible in the majority of countries in the world.  Openly roaming the streets with automatic weapons is dystopian to most people, but not the batshyte crazies that think this is their right in America.

John Howard, clearly a "lefty" in your world, must have been batshyte crazy to remove most weapons from our populace.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

A paedophile, a wife beater, and a felon walk into a bar.
Kyle Rittenhouse says " Shots are on me"



Too soon?


The mainstream media coverage was atrocious and devoid of facts from the case. If independent media had not filmed every movement and incident that happened, the leftist loons would have lied its way to a conviction.
Thank God for independent media organisations on the ground.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> You should try writing rationally rather than always having to use a "label" to make a point.
> 
> What Rittenhouse did would *not *have been possible in the majority of countries in the world.  Openly roaming the streets with automatic weapons is dystopian to most people, but not the batshyte crazies that think this is their right in America.
> 
> John Howard, clearly a "lefty" in your world, must have been batshyte crazy to remove most weapons from our populace.



Self defence was on trial. 
The rest doesn't mater.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Self defence was on trial.
> The rest doesn't mater.



It does in most of the world where that event was *impossible.*
Arguing about a level of madness is not productive.


----------



## IFocus (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Self defence was on trial.
> The rest doesn't mater.





An untrained 17 year with a loaded AR15 on the streets being acceptable is to me a bigger issue and points to just how  batshyte crazy conservative politics is in the US


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> It does in most of the world where that event was *impossible.*
> Arguing about a level of madness is not productive.



It's an age old "madness". It happens in the rest of the world. And has happened in the US and no doubt will continue due to the 2nd amendment. Perhaps you mean in 'some of the world'.

States and cities failed with law enforcement. And that was due to what boiled down to populism among governors and mayors.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> An untrained 17 year with a loaded AR15 on the streets being acceptable is to me a bigger issue and points to just how  batshyte crazy conservative politics is in the US



This article shows why Rittenhouse's conviction was never going to happen because what he did was lawful according to statue.
By the same token, had someone been faster on the trigger and killed Rittenhouse then they too would have been able to invoke Rittenhouse's defence as they had reason to believe their life was in danger.  If that's not madness then I am lost.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> An untrained 17 year with a loaded AR15 on the streets being acceptable is to me a bigger issue and points to just how  batshyte crazy conservative politics is in the US



Dude was exceptional under the circumstances. Hence the acquittal.

Only fired at threats and did not shoot till there was a threat. He kept his gun lowered and used the firearm exactly as one should when it comes to the law.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's an age old "madness". It happens in the rest of the world. And has happened in the US and no doubt will continue due to the 2nd amendment. Perhaps you mean in 'some of the world'.



No, I mean most of the world.
Perhaps you can tell me about the countries that lawfully allow 17 year olds to roam the street with an automatic weapon.


moXJO said:


> States and cities failed with law enforcement. And that was due to what boiled down to populism among governors and mayors.



Seriously?
Rittenhouse did nothing wrong according to State statute *and *as upheld in his verdict.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> If that's not madness then I am lost.



It's the US.

Talking about madness, the second instalment of Tiger King is out.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's the US.



My point exactly.
If everyone carries a gun we are all safe!
MAD was called that for the very reason, it was *mad*.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> My point exactly.
> If everyone carries a gun we are all safe!
> MAD was called that for the very reason, it was *mad*.



Switzerland is the obvious opposing end of what US probably should have looked like. 13-17 yo are highly trained at a young age.

I'd advocate this for Australia if we weren't so accepting of stupid behaviour. We could remain neutral in an increasingly hostile area.
Defence of our resources will eventually come to pass.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Switzerland is the obvious opposing end of what US probably should have looked like. 13-17 yo are highly trained at a young age.



So you just invented your point as most countries have laws that prevent madness.


moXJO said:


> I'd advocate this for Australia if we weren't so accepting of stupid behaviour.



Clive Palmer has a Party for you to join.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> So you just invented your point as most countries have laws that prevent madness.
> 
> Clive Palmer has a Party for you to join.



Shots fired...... Let's do this.

Show me where Kyle Rittenhouse was legally in the wrong?

It's madness because you don't like it.
To me it was self defence under the laws of that country.

But hey if you want to get all hysterical and emotional with no legal basis go for it.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Shots fired...... Let's do this.
> 
> Show me where Kyle Rittenhouse was legally in the wrong?
> 
> ...



Read what I wrote.
I said that's what the statute allows.
I also said that it was dystopian, and you have no other countries that suggest otherwise.
Simple bottom line is that as most countries don't allow teenagers to openly carry automatic weapons in public, and the fact that it's lawful in some US States just goes to show how bereft of common sense they are.
You are the one who is hysterical.


----------



## wayneL (20 November 2021)

@rederob what happens in other jurisdictions is completely irrelevant. The events that happened were judged under the particular laws of that jurisdiction.

The wisdom of Rittenhouse being there, may be argued, but the fact that he was acting legally cannot be argued and that has been borne out in this case.

As a matter of fact there is a case now being made, just as in the Covington kids case, that car should now sue CNN, MSNBC, The Grauniad et al for defamation.

And I hope he does, they have clearly misrepresented both the boy and the facts of the matter.

A perusal around the idiocy of the leftist interwebz, even now that all the facts are known, shows that there are an army of blue check twitterati who representing that he either shot black people, that he shot people in the back, or just dropped his knee and fired indiscriminately into a crowd.

I may even give you the benefit of doubt that you maybe labouring under such a misapprehension. 

The fact is, @moXJO is correct on each and every point he has made above. It was indeed self-defense and according to the justice system has been proved beyond reasonable doubt.


----------



## wayneL (20 November 2021)

This is the sort of incendiary BS being circulated by some of the leftist MSM.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Read what I wrote.
> I said that's what the statute allows.
> I also said that it was dystopian, and you have no other countries that suggest otherwise.
> Simple bottom line is that as most countries don't allow teenagers to openly carry automatic weapons in public, and the fact that it's lawful in some US States just goes to show how bereft of common sense they are.
> You are the one who is hysterical.



Rittenhouse was 17 almost 18. Now I could list Pakistan, middle East and African Nations or point out that NZ had these guns up to a few years ago and are in fact in the top 20 most armed countries.

But let's step away from that. Lets say that every country that has maintained an army and sent their troops into combat. Have in fact sent young men and women into foreign countries heavily armed and of similar age in public.

Biden has recently armed hundreds of 13-17 year olds in Afghanistan with heavy US arms.

I'm not the one getting hysterical over self defence.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> This is the sort of incendiary BS being circulated by some of the leftist MSM.




This is one of the worst articles I've seen. Complete BS. Let's get something straight about the prosecution. They used every dirty trick and bordered on the case being thrown out because of it.
Don't rely on media. Watch the footage of the trial. It had nothing to do with racism.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Rittenhouse was 17 almost 18. Now I could list Pakistan, middle East and African Nations or point out that NZ had these guns up to a few years ago and are in fact in the top 20 most armed countries.



Absolute BS in that their laws do *not *allow young people to carry automatic weapons in public.  That's the stupidity that you have avoided in every response so far.


moXJO said:


> But let's step away from that. Lets say that every country that has maintained an army and sent their troops into combat. Have in fact sent young men and women into foreign countries heavily armed and of similar age in public.



Not relevant.


moXJO said:


> Biden has recently armed hundreds of 13-17 year olds in Afghanistan with heavy US arms.



BS.  That's a legacy of failed Trump policy.


moXJO said:


> I'm not the one getting hysterical over self defence.



All I have done is pointed out the stupidity that allows the situation to occur. 
And the Guardian article above is accurate:
*"The most worrying effect of this verdict may be this: giving rightwing - or any - vigilantes a legal precedent to take up arms against anyone they consider a threat – which pretty much runs from anti-fascists to so-called Rinos (Republicans in Name Only) and includes almost all people of - any - color – means it is now open hunting season on progressive - or any - protesters."*​
I added *any *to the above because anyone, anywhere, in America has the precedent to fall back on.
*As the say, "only in America".*


----------



## wayneL (20 November 2021)

I love to see @rederob logic through his support of the laughable The Grauniad's take above.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> The fact is, @moXJO is correct on each and every point he has made above. It was indeed self-defense and according to the justice system has been proved beyond reasonable doubt.



I stated numerous times that State statute allowed Rittenhouse to do what he did.
However, for the umteenth time, the point I made was the lunacy of such laws, and the fact that no other western nations that I am aware, and no other developing nations that I am aware, lawfully allow teenagers to roam the streets with automatic weapons.  The fact that so many Americans cannot see this is a problem *is* the problem.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Absolute BS in that their laws do *not *allow young people to carry automatic weapons in public.  That's the stupidity that you have avoided in every response so far.
> 
> Not relevant.



How is it not relevant.
I addressed the issue and briefly listed places that in fact have kids walking around with weapons. Also pointed out that the army is in fact made up of young people walking around with weapons in public places.

And to add further the weapon in question was not "automatic".
But that's the type of uninformed opinion I've come to expect.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Absolute BS in that their laws do *not *allow young people to carry automatic weapons in public.  That's the stupidity that you have avoided in every response so far.
> 
> Not relevant.
> 
> ...



This article is stupidity. People went to a town, were rioting and trying to burn buildings. Chased a kid who in turn used his right to self defence. No one should have been there, but they were. Both groups had guns. Kyle was not the first to shoot.

People have  rights under the laws of countries.

Stop posting emotion driven dribble.


----------



## rederob (20 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> This article is stupidity. People went to a town, were rioting and trying to burn buildings. Chased a kid who in turn used his right to self defence. No one should have been there, but they were. Both groups had guns. Kyle was not the first to shoot.



You have consistently avoided the key issue.
Stupid laws have given rise to a gun culture that allows teenagers to roam the streets with automatic weapons, *and provide a defence to the person who does this and kills others on the pretext they opined they feared for their personal safety.*
If it were not so serious it would be laughable.


----------



## wayneL (20 November 2021)

@rederob clearly has not viewed the evidence, nor the footage and is practising a form of uninformed sophistry.


----------



## moXJO (20 November 2021)

rederob said:


> You have consistently avoided the key issue.
> Stupid laws have given rise to a gun culture that allows teenagers to roam the streets with automatic weapons, *and provide a defence to the person who does this and kills others on the pretext they opined they feared for their personal safety.*
> If it were not so serious it would be laughable.



It wasn’t an automatic weapon. Perhaps read up a bit then present that question again.

If you choose to lead with violence then you suffer the consequences of your stupidity.


----------



## rederob (21 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> @rederob clearly has not viewed the evidence, nor the footage and is practising a form of uninformed sophistry.



I am not presenting an argument (so your use of the term "sophistry" is a nonsense), but have been making a point about the stupidity of American laws that lead to the proliferation of a gun culture.
If you are going to post, at least try to get something right.


----------



## Macquack (21 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Self defence was on trial.
> The rest doesn't mater.



Rittenhouse would not have had to defend himself, if he was not carrying a semi-automatic rifle acting like he was some kind of Rambo character.


----------



## rederob (21 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> It wasn’t an automatic weapon. Perhaps read up a bit then present that question again.



Semi automatics can be legally modified with bump stock in America to fire almost as rapidly as automatics, so your point is somewhat semantic.  Here's a guy openly carrying an AK-47 that shoots up to 600 rounds a minute:







moXJO said:


> If you choose to lead with violence then you suffer the consequences of your stupidity.



True, so show where else in the world it's legal for private citizens to lawfully carry military standard assault weapons in public.  Your examples of ownership are not relevant, nor were your examples of soldiers who, *unsurprisingly *have this right.


----------



## DB008 (21 November 2021)

*Video Provided To The Defence vs The Prosecution's Copy*






Your browser is not able to display this video.






.​


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Semi automatics can be legally modified with bump stock in America to fire almost as rapidly as automatics, so your point is somewhat semantic.  Here's a guy openly carrying an AK-47 that shoots up to 600 rounds a minute:
> View attachment 133181
> 
> 
> True, so show where else in the world it's legal for private citizens to lawfully carry military standard assault weapons in public.  Your examples of ownership are not relevant, nor were your examples of soldiers who, *unsurprisingly *have this right.



How is that relevant to the facts of the matter at hand? ie the Rittenhouse acqittal and the ludicrous reaction from the left... well I guess you are helping to illustrate my point.


----------



## moXJO (21 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Semi automatics can be legally modified with bump stock in America to fire almost as rapidly as automatics, so your point is somewhat semantic.  Here's a guy openly carrying an AK-47 that shoots up to 600 rounds a minute:
> View attachment 133181
> 
> 
> True, so show where else in the world it's legal for private citizens to lawfully carry military standard assault weapons in public.  Your examples of ownership are not relevant, nor were your examples of soldiers who, *unsurprisingly *have this right.



Look what he was using before shoving sleight of hands down peoples throats. 
He was not using an ak ffs. Or a modified weapon.


----------



## moXJO (21 November 2021)

rederob said:


> View attachment 133181
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pakistan you can pick up grenade launches. Israel has heavy weapons but tight conditions. Swiss use military rifles for target shooting. Africa, Middle East, NZ had ar-15 up till a few years ago


----------



## rederob (21 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Look what he was using before shoving sleight of hands down peoples throats.
> He was not using an ak ffs. Or a modified weapon.



I should count the number of times you have avoided my question about the dystopian laws that allow teenagers to roam the streets with loaded assault rifles.  


moXJO said:


> Pakistan you can pick up grenade launches. Israel has heavy weapons but tight conditions. Swiss use military rifles for target shooting. Africa, Middle East, NZ had



*More *fails on your part.
I won't hold my breath and won't reply on this matter again as you seem unable to work this out.


----------



## rederob (21 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> How is that relevant to the facts of the matter at hand? ie the Rittenhouse acqittal and the ludicrous reaction from the left... well I guess you are helping to illustrate my point.



If you kept up then you would know it had nothing to do with the acquittal.


----------



## moXJO (21 November 2021)

rederob said:


> I should count the number of times you have avoided my question about the dystopian laws that allow teenagers to roam the streets with loaded assault rifles.
> 
> *More *fails on your part.
> I won't hold my breath and won't reply on this matter again as you seem unable to work this out.



It's not an assault rifle either, buzzword of the day I suppose.

 I answered your question multiple times. But keep scratching at that crack.


----------



## wayneL (22 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's not an assault rifle either, buzzword of the day I suppose.
> 
> I answered your question multiple times. But keep scratching at that crack.



Correct, again.

In fact, if @rederob  indulged in the most basic fact checking, the "A" in AR15 stands for ”Armalite” and NOT "Assault".

This has been clarified hundreds of times in the real media, in spite of the leftist fake media continueing  to blazenly lie about this fact.

Once again, our ideological imperatives here in Oz are completely irrelevant to to law (constitutional law at that) as it stands in the jurisdiction concerned.

As such, it is a straw man argument.

(Cue rederob avoiding the issue by casting aspersions)


----------



## SirRumpole (22 November 2021)

Law enforcement should be left to those trained for the task imo.

Rittenhouse went looking for trouble, he was lucky with the verdict imo, pity it's going to be used as a precedent for every gun happy vigilante who follows his lead.


----------



## IFocus (22 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's not an assault rifle either, buzzword of the day I suppose.
> 
> I answered your question multiple times. But keep scratching at that crack.




The Smith & Wesson M&P 15 he used is sold as " the ideal modern sporting rifle" which is total BS the design is based on assault rife configuration.

Still doesn't matter one round in the chest and you are dead.

Note he couldn't legally carry a hand gun but was allowed to carry the rife due to barrel length go figure.

Comes back to a untrained 17 year old on the streets with a weapon acting as a vigilante in a situation that was a policing one what could possibly go wrong... just two dead that's all. 

As much as I disliked Howard I do give him and John Anderson kudos for acting against the wishers of their constituents for the befit of all Australians regarding our gun laws. 

They can put hand on heart and say they saved Australian lives.

Unlike the US conservative politicians  practicing fundamentalist BS.
​​


----------



## rederob (22 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Correct, again.
> 
> In fact, if @rederob  indulged in the most basic fact checking, the "A" in AR15 stands for ”Armalite” and NOT "Assault".
> 
> ...



At no point did I ever need to specify what Rittenhouse actually used seeing it's been all over the news, so whatever you want to claim has nothing to do what I have posted.
I separately posted a photo of a civilian openly carrying an automatic weapon in the streets, and this is allowed in some US States.  I personally think that's dystopian, aka madness.  
Despite numerous requests for @moXJO to indicate what other developed nations lawfully allow this to happen he comes back empty handed and instead confuses his responses with gun ownership or army use, or some other obfuscation.
The semantics of assault rifle, automatic or semi automatic weapon, or brand name, are incidental to the fact that some US States allow them to be open carried.


----------



## moXJO (22 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> The Smith & Wesson M&P 15 he used is sold as " the ideal modern sporting rifle" which is total BS the design is based on assault rife configuration.
> 
> Still doesn't matter one round in the chest and you are dead.
> 
> ...



Your terminology means jack it was legal under the law of the state.
I'd say he was well trained as he showed restraint and remained within the law. 

Did you not express you wanted to run over protesters the other day in your car?

Joke or not welcome to being part of the problem.


----------



## wayneL (22 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Law enforcement should be left to those trained for the task imo.
> 
> Rittenhouse went looking for trouble, he was lucky with the verdict imo, pity it's going to be used as a precedent for every gun happy vigilante who follows his lead.



It is worth mentioning that law enforcement was stood down and we're not functioning as law enforcement at all.

I do not believe that Rittenhouse was looking for trouble in fact it is documented that he actually offered and provided first aid services to injured protesters.

He did not antagonize protesters at all it was nearly there to help defend, as-is allowed by the law of the particular jurisdiction. 

It is only when his own life was threatened dead he acted in self-defense.

it is contingent upon us to actually find out the facts of the matter before making comments... And also to find out from the local contacts rather than judging from an Australian context.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> It is worth mentioning that law enforcement was stood down and we're not functioning as law enforcement at all.
> 
> I do not believe that Rittenhouse was looking for trouble in fact it is documented that he actually offered and provided first aid services to injured protesters.
> 
> ...



Were his attackers armed? 

Did he give any warning before he fired? 

There are places  you  can shoot people to disable rather than kill.


----------



## IFocus (22 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Your terminology means jack it was legal under the law of the state.
> I'd say he was well trained as he showed restraint and remained within the law.
> 
> Did you not express you wanted to run over protesters the other day in your car?
> ...





Well trained, you are kidding?

Part of the problem? I am not advocating that a 17 year old to go armed in public.


----------



## wayneL (22 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Were his attackers armed?
> 
> Did he give any warning before he fired?
> 
> There are places  you  can shoot people to disable rather than kill.



Please view the evidence rather than making assumptions.

This is what the court does, has done, and acquitted him.

Plenty of videos from the night, out there on the interwebz, bro.


----------



## rederob (22 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Were his attackers armed?



Joseph Rosenbaum was *unarmed *while another had a deadly* skateboard.  *Gaige Grosskreutz had a pistol but never fired.


SirRumpole said:


> Did he give any warning before he fired?



Lol - in America he would have got off on lunacy if he did that (assuming he survived after firing).


SirRumpole said:


> There are places  you  can shoot people to disable rather than kill.



Doesn't that defeat the purpose of carrying a deadly weapon?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Doesn't that defeat the purpose of carrying a deadly weapon?




Only if you have intent to kill.


----------



## rederob (22 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Only if you have intent to kill.



Defeats the purpose of carrying a deadly weapon.  That's why most British police (except in N.I.) do not carry weapons.


----------



## wayneL (22 November 2021)

Ridiculous.


----------



## Investoradam (22 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Law enforcement should be left to those trained for the task imo.
> 
> Rittenhouse went looking for trouble, he was lucky with the verdict imo, pity it's going to be used as a precedent for every gun happy vigilante who follows his lead.



he was chased several blocks by 3 BLM/ANTIFA members who were, life long criminals. a pedo, child molester, a wife beater and a felon!
let that sink in
so Rittenhouse killed 2 and injured 3 life long criminals out of a mob of how many who were burning and looting the neighbour hoods!

funny how the media only focus on one bloke and ignoring the real trouble going on! & remember Antifa is apparently only an idea


----------



## SirRumpole (23 November 2021)

Investoradam said:


> he was chased several blocks by 3 BLM/ANTIFA members who were, life long criminals. a pedo, child molester, a wife beater and a felon!
> let that sink in




And he knew that did he ?

Anyway, that's the USA , he was found not guilty by his peers so he went through the process, I just hope that sort of thing doesn't happen here.

Would be interesting to see if some anti vax and/or 'freedom' protestors were shot by similar vigilantes (or the police), that would give some people here a real identity crisis.


----------



## Investoradam (23 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And he knew that did he ?
> 
> Anyway, that's the USA , he was found not guilty by his peers so he went through the process, I just hope that sort of thing doesn't happen here.
> 
> Would be interesting to see if some anti vax and/or 'freedom' protestors were shot by similar vigilantes (or the police), that would give some people here a real identity crisis.



the USA is 10 years ahead of Australia so its coming. thank Johnny Howards stunt for taking the guns away!

before mocking some one try to understand why!
remember the governments, business and billy gates said one jab and covid will away and we will get our freedoms back
some countries re 4 jabs in and still dont have freedom, Australia are 2 jabs in and we still can't travel
in Queensland Anna wants out our credit card linked to our my gov account along with out check in app so we can be fined for not checking in?

maybe these freedom and choice protestors are questioning something?

in th4 states, why are those BLM loons stopped, why is the media silent on the issue?, why are the people trying to defend the streets mocked for being vigilantes as they see neigh hoods burned, how on earth did Kyle shoot 3 people, that were life long criminals?


learn a little history by starting with lenin and the bolshevik revolution of 1916, vilmer republic germany 1918 to 1933 and the context today will make sense. who Antifa & marxism really is, how Antifa & BLM is nothing but a marxist group (leaders own words) are used and why they exist.

if you aren't concerned about the west after that, maybe hire a tutor to explain it to you


----------



## SirRumpole (23 November 2021)

Investoradam said:


> the USA is 10 years ahead of Australia so its coming. thank Johnny Howards stunt for taking the guns away!
> 
> before mocking some one try to understand why!
> remember the governments, business and billy gates said one jab and covid will away and we will get our freedoms back
> ...




I think you missed my point.

Say Rittenhouse was a Marxist with a gun who was chased by three "anti vaxers" (the type of people threatening to kill people) who he then shot dead. 

You would stand up and defend him yes ?

Or would you say he was a Communist infiltrator repressing freedom of protest ?


----------



## wayneL (23 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you missed my point.
> 
> Say Rittenhouse was a Marxist with a gun who was chased by three "anti vaxers" (the type of people threatening to kill people) who he then shot dead.
> 
> ...



So you are implicitly saying that guilt or innocence is political. Well, for those on the left, you are correct.

Let me tell you something, if he was a BLM Marxist he would not have been charged. But if so, he most certainly would be entitled to have defended himself and acquitted in the same way. Absolutely.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> But if so, he most certainly would be entitled to have defended himself and acquitted in the same way. Absolutely.



Thanks for that. Point to you.



wayneL said:


> Let me tell you something, if he was a BLM Marxist he would not have been charged.



Impossible to prove , your opinion only.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> So you are implicitly saying that guilt or innocence is political. Well, for those on the left, you are correct.




Not according to the law , but certainly to some on the extremes this is correct.


----------



## Investoradam (23 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you missed my point.
> 
> Say Rittenhouse was a Marxist with a gun who was chased by three "anti vaxers" (the type of people threatening to kill people) who he then shot dead.
> 
> ...



go and watch some of the videos and read up on some of the case. the 3 criminals chased Rittenhouse foe several blocks with the aim to kill him


----------



## SirRumpole (23 November 2021)

Investoradam said:


> go and watch some of the videos and read up on some of the case. the 3 criminals chased Rittenhouse foe several blocks with the aim to kill him




Deliberately ignoring the point I made if the shoes were on the other feet.

At least wayne acknowledged that everyone has the same rights, you don't appear to accept that principle.


----------



## Investoradam (23 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Deliberately ignoring the point I made if the shoes were on the other feet.
> 
> At least wayne acknowledged that everyone has the same rights, you don't appear to accept that principle.



no! your just being selective and trying to take the self-righteous moral  high ground here


----------



## moXJO (23 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> Well trained, you are kidding?
> 
> Part of the problem? I am not advocating that a 17 year old to go armed in public.



You did get angry when in a vehicle and expressed a violent thought. 

To shoot and gauge if it was within the law or not, under that pressure is in no way an easy feat.


----------



## IFocus (23 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> You did get angry when in a vehicle and expressed a violent thought.
> 
> To shoot and gauge if it was within the law or not, under that pressure is in no way an easy feat.





FFS Mo want me to revisit your humour comments?

Cancel culture eh.

Again you are backing a untrained armed 17 year old in a volatile situation as OK, its a nonsense.


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Were his attackers armed?
> 
> Did he give any warning before he fired?
> 
> There are places  you  can shoot people to disable rather than kill.



I haven't posted on the issue, as I don't have an opinion, the U.S is weird at best.

But that post Rumpy, should be forwarded to the Australian police IMO. 😂


----------



## moXJO (24 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> FFS Mo want me to revisit your humour comments?
> 
> Cancel culture eh.
> 
> Again you are backing a untrained armed 17 year old in a volatile situation as OK, its a nonsense.



Hey don't get mad. You were the only one biting for the day. 
Never will I stand roadside next to antivaxxers in WA though. I reckon I can give that last bit of incentive to ease off the brakes.


----------



## Humid (24 November 2021)

So someone from the right shoots 3 people dead and it ends up on the loony left......well done to the bloke who shifts from a Labor state to a Labor state who won in a landslide
Closet lefty


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

Humid said:


> So someone from the right shoots 3 people dead and it ends up on the loony left......well done to the bloke who shifts from a Labor state to a Labor state who won in a landslide
> Closet lefty



Oh







Humid said:


> So someone from the right shoots 3 people dead and it ends up on the loony left......well done to the bloke who shifts from a Labor state to a Labor state who won in a landslide
> Closet lefty



This is the dumbest take I've seen for ages. SMDH


----------



## Humid (24 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Oh
> This is the dumbest take I've seen for ages. SMDH



which one


----------



## Investoradam (24 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> FFS Mo want me to revisit your humour comments?
> 
> Cancel culture eh.
> 
> Again you are backing a untrained armed 17 year old in a volatile situation as OK, its a nonsense.



want to know the thing most people ignore. how did a 17. yr old pick out 3 life long criminals part of a marxist group who were burning and looting neighbourhoods ( nothing said about the arson) but the 3 victims of Rittenhouse were all disgusting people. makes you wonder what the rest of the groups are like.


----------



## Humid (24 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Oh
> This is the dumbest take I've seen for ages. SMDH



Rittenhouse is 5'8" you little fellas stick together...same disease


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Rittenhouse is 5'8" you little fellas stick together...same disease



Nice attempt at a troll.

FYI

I'm 5'7" (and !!!!!!!!! a 1/2 !!!!!!!!!!!!!)

However I sing in bass/baritone, no squeaky, nasally jockey voice here.

In my job it's actually an advantage to be smaller/lighter believe it or not. All the big tall strong blokes have crook backs. At 60, although my elbows are totally farked, my back is absolutely brilliant.... and there has never been a leftist troll that I haven't been able to drink under the table (ask the staff at the Rose and Crown will be able to vouch for this).

Additionally I can still do my own track work and don't have to rely on a farkin meth addicted midget.

My consistent observation though, is that blokes who have to hawk their overall physical size, are usually deficient in other areas.... Especially if they're on the 'roids.

Good try though, bro. I'm actually pretty handy at reading radiographs so when the time comes for your joint replacements, I would be interested in having a look.


----------



## IFocus (24 November 2021)

Investoradam said:


> want to know the thing most people ignore. how did a 17. yr old pick out 3 life long criminals part of a marxist group who were burning and looting neighbourhoods ( nothing said about the arson) but the 3 victims of Rittenhouse were all disgusting people. makes you wonder what the rest of the groups are like.





I wouldn't try and justify the riots or the rampaging mob even thought the US is a basket case for social issues, wealth disparity, shootings general etc based on what colour you are and areas you live in. 

A better conversation would be how did it get this point of mobs burning businesses and why weren't the authorities on top of it.

Given the toxic US politics really there is no answer IMHO.

Armed vigilantes roaming the streets were not the solution, note the car yard the 17 year old was guarding got burnt anyway.


----------



## IFocus (24 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Hey don't get mad. You were the only one biting for the day.





Yeah, you got me.


----------



## Humid (24 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Nice attempt at a troll.
> 
> FYI
> 
> ...



A midget walks into a bar....he was a little drunk!


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

Humid said:


> A midget walks into a bar....he was a little drunk!



I'd be a little disappointed if he was able to walk out


----------



## Humid (24 November 2021)

Says it all


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

^^^ Says it all.


----------



## Humid (24 November 2021)

Is that you next to him....right height


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Is that you next to him....right height



I reiterate that those who focus on size, may have a lack of the same in crucial areas


----------



## Humid (24 November 2021)

Got any kids?


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Got any kids?



Probably a lot more than I actually know about


----------



## wayneL (1 December 2021)

Trigger warning:


----------



## SirRumpole (2 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Trigger warning:





There is some truth in that.

The major parties act for the rich or the poor and forget those in between.


----------



## wayneL (30 December 2021)

The long march through the insitutions  having been completed, they are now torching the whole joint.

This \/ is truly @#£&ed up.


----------



## Investoradam (16 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Thanks for that. Point to you.
> 
> 
> Impossible to prove , your opinion only.



No fact! $pros and other Marxist media would have made sure of that!
Irony is al of the rabble marxist media and co paint the rapist, woman beater, & arsonist that chased Rittenhouse for several blocks targeting & waving weapons at him were some how innocent despite being life long criminals


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2022)

Mr Inclusive, showing his nurturing and inclusive side. 🤣 









						Risky business: Why Joyce has declared war on his cabin crew
					

The industrial battle diverts attention from far bigger and more immediate issues facing the airline - most particularly rising costs




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## Humid (20 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Mr Inclusive, showing his nurturing and inclusive side. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whats he on a year$


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Whats he on a year$



About 100 flight attendants.


----------



## wayneL (20 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> About 100 flight attendants.



I will take 3 or 4 flight attendants (selectively ) over Allen any day.


----------



## Humid (20 January 2022)

M or F


----------



## moXJO (20 January 2022)

Humid said:


> M or F



Hey, include all 156 genders you bigot


----------



## Investoradam (21 January 2022)

Humid said:


> View attachment 133356
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Still melty over Trump & now Rittenhouse?


----------



## Humid (21 January 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Still melty over Trump & now Rittenhouse?



Do you think you will be going back to school or they will give you a couple of extra weeks off due to covid
Year 10 is important


----------



## Investoradam (21 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Do you think you will be going back to school or they will give you a couple of extra weeks off due to covid
> Year 10 is important


----------



## Humid (21 January 2022)

Investoradam said:


>




Tic Tok I rest my case


----------



## Investoradam (21 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Tic Tok I rest my case



its actually a true thing from some LWNJS in finland! the left are busy being miserable and canceling anything that makes normal people happy. but at the same time becoming the comedy!








						Finland's Oulu city council roasted online for feeble "no-no square" dance to combat rape
					

The video has been seen by millions.




					reclaimthenet.org


----------



## wayneL (10 February 2022)

"I love being a woman" now transphopic.

The clown world continues unabated.









						‘Absolutely shameful’: Outrage over Adele backlash
					

Adele is being accused of transphobia for declaring at a gender-neutral awards show that she loves “being a woman”.




					www.google.com


----------



## sptrawler (10 February 2022)

Looks like thought provoking books are going to hit the bins. 
Everyone thought the muslims were over the top, with the reaction to Salman Rushdie's book.  🤣








						‘Throw those in the fire’: As culture wars escalate, so do book bans
					

Why parents, politicians and school officials around the US are challenging books at a rate that experts and librarians say is unprecedented.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## rederob (10 February 2022)

I read the thread title and wondered if @Investoradam had left yet?


----------



## Investoradam (14 February 2022)

Canberra anti-vaccination protesters told to pack up as deadline looms​








						Anti-vax protesters told to pack up
					

A deadline for anti-vaccination protesters to pack up and leave Canberra is looming, with ACT Police giving the group until Sunday evening to move on.




					www.news.com.au
				




this thread has gone rather dull!

i mean all these protesters protesting peacefully.
3 arrests out of a possible 100k protesting for freedom
what a pack of leftist protesters they are


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Canberra anti-vaccination protesters told to pack up as deadline looms​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



100k lol


----------



## Investoradam (14 February 2022)

Humid said:


> 100k lol



Keep believing the few the media peddles out!

after all they do tell you they are extreme right protesters, but they are protesting over leftists issues!

lol


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Keep believing the few the media peddles out!
> 
> after all they do tell you they are extreme right protesters, but they are protesting over leftists issues!
> 
> lol



So why is your info bonafide?


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)




----------



## wayneL (14 February 2022)

"Freedom" is now an American construct and a word used exclusively by the far right. </clownworld>


----------



## IFocus (14 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> "Freedom" is now an American construct and a word used exclusively by the far right. </clownworld>




Yep while the Republican and their donors fleece the useful idiots sorry patriots.


----------



## sptrawler (15 February 2022)

Hey guys, is this why we need an Australian republic, or why the U.S needs a Westminster system?


----------



## wayneL (25 February 2022)

Kind of sweet in a *very* cringeful way,  but more evidence of why the west is going to have its @ss handed to it.


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Kind of sweet in a *very* cringeful way,  but more evidence of why the west is going to have its @ss handed to it.




I was fortunate I grew up in a very, very violent home, what it taught me, was the more you begged not to be beaten, hurt and abused, the worse it got.
But it also taught me that there is no need to get angry, spiteful and violent, unless all other avenues were exhausted.
My childhood has stood me in good stead, I have four lovely kids that are not aggressive not outspoken and very courteous, but if anyone tries to intimidate them all hell breaks loose. 
I laughed under my breath, when the youngest daughter tore her Mum a new ar$e, Mum is a seriously tough task master.


----------



## Investoradam (28 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> Yep while the Republican and their donors fleece the useful idiots sorry patriots.



people protesting again mandates?
whilst the usefull idiot left (Lenins words) are attempting to mock the protesters.
lol
you cannot make the left of stupid left up


----------



## wayneL (8 April 2022)

Watching the luvvies absolutely losing their @#$& on Twitter tonight was hilarious, I mean the absolute temerity of the ABC to bring on the director of the IPA! LMAO

Actually, after the following tweet I couldn't make up my mind whether to put this post to hear or in the freedom of speech and protest thread, decided on here after I finished laughing:


----------



## wayneL (4 October 2022)

On topic with no comment necessary


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2022)

wayneL said:


> On topic with no comment necessary



That is the way today, it is their way, or the highway. 
Fanaticism usually ends up  with a big implosion, when the cause becomes a catastrophe and their self inflated belief bubble is pricked.








						Fanaticism Is a Disease Like Alcoholism
					

Fanatics Anonymous 12 Steps: At core, don’t blame the addict; blame the disease.




					www.psychologytoday.com


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2022)

As if we all didn't know already, the left is, pathologically, certifiably, insane.


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2022)

The left: Chaya is a terrorist for reposting our videos.

Also the left: Let's maim or kill Chaya.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> The left: Chaya is a terrorist for reposting our videos.
> 
> Also the left: Let's maim or kill Chaya



Fanatics.
This is what they are scared of:








						Report says at least 32 transgender people were killed in the U.S. in 2022
					

An LGBTQ advocacy group says at least 32 transgender and gender-nonconforming people have been killed in the United States in 2022. The Human Rights Campaign announced the figure in its annual report ahead of this weekend's Transgender Day of Remembrance.




					www.pbs.org


----------



## IFocus (21 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> The left: Chaya is a terrorist for reposting our videos.
> 
> Also the left: Let's maim or kill Chaya.




Never heard the name before but after reading up about her that's a good thing IMHO.

From the extreme leftestard  publication wiki, sounds like either a useful idiot for the extremes of the Republican's or a lovely piece of work.

Love to have her as a neighbor.

"*Libs of TikTok* is a right-wing Twitter account owned by former real estate agent *Chaya Raichik*[1][2][3] that reposts content created by liberals, leftists, and LGBT people on TikTok and on other social media platforms, often with hostile, mocking, or derogatory commentary."

"The account has been described as promoting harassment against and criticizing teachers, medical providers, and children's hospitals[2][14][15][16] and spreading false claims and hateful commentary against marginalized groups."

" In August 2022, Libs of TikTok received substantial media attention after falsely claiming that gender-affirming hysterectomies were being provided to minors at the Boston Children's Hospital and at the Children's National Hospital. This resulted in a harassment campaign against both hospitals, including bomb threats."

"The false claims that Boston Children's Hospital performs hysterectomies on young children were republished by prominent conservative commentators and conservative media outlets such as _The Post Millennial_.[8][51][53] This resulted in the hospital, its employees, and providers receiving death threats, threats of violence, and other harassment via email, phone, and on the internet.[18][39][54][50] According to Boston physician Michael O'Brien, "pediatric patients in Boston [Children's Hospital] are being seen with extra security" due to threats.[55] The harassment campaign's effect on hospital phone systems temporarily impaired the ability of patients to speak with providers there.[56]"









						Libs of TikTok - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2022)

^^ I rest my case.


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Fanatics.
> This is what they are scared of:
> 
> 
> ...



yeahbut.... How many of all the other cohorts been murdered? 

Context is everything.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> yeahbut.... How many of all the other cohorts been murdered?
> 
> Context is everything.



Well yea, women for instance.
Not saying they aren't extremists but they are living in fear, even if it is exaggerated.

They use to murder gays in Sydney in the 80s and 90s. Don't think it happens now.
But you can see some of the opposite extremist hate posts sometimes, mainly overseas.


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Well yea, women for instance.
> Not saying they aren't extremists but they are living in fear, even if it is exaggerated.
> 
> They use to murder gays in Sydney in the 80s and 90s. Don't think it happens now.
> But you can see some of the opposite extremist hate posts sometimes, mainly overseas.



Yes now the sport is king hitting people, especially if they are having a night out on the town and have had a couple of drinks.
I haven't been to the entertainment precinct of Perth in 30 years, it is way too violent after dark, gangs of youths wandering around looking for trouble.









						Sickening coward punch floors lone victim in Perth CBD
					

Shocking footage of an assault in Perth's CBD has once again raised concerns over one-punch attacks.




					www.watoday.com.au
				












						Perth teen jailed over coward's punch
					

A split-second act of violence shattered Danny Hodgson's life.




					www.9news.com.au
				












						‘Coward’s punch’ victim dies in RPH
					

CHARGES may be upgraded after the victim of a “coward’s punch’’ died in Royal Perth Hospital after suffering fatal head injuries in a Mandurah pub assault.




					www.perthnow.com.au
				












						One-punch attack charges upgraded
					

A man accused of a fatal one-punch attack on a Perth train has had his charge upgraded.




					thewest.com.au
				






			https://www.news.com.au/national/crime/deadly-one-punch-attacks-the-damage-was-too-significant-catastrophic/news-story/a2872f1cb90a09b5b6e3dc4cf2760b01
		










						Shannon was just 22 when a one-punch attack ended his life. Now police are offering $1m to find his killer
					

Detectives hope a fresh plea for information and raising the reward to $1 million will help them find the person responsible for a one-punch death 15 years ago.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						‘My sunshine is gone’: Wife of man killed by a drunk stranger’s coward punch makes powerful plea
					

Enza Raco lost her husband Giuseppe Raco in a one-punch attack last year. Now she’s sharing her pain in a bid to force change.




					7news.com.au
				












						The man who killed a stranger with a single punch, and then turned his life around
					

Jacob Dunne spent his life dealing drugs and getting into fights until, in 2011, he struck a deadly blow. Then meeting his victim’s parents changed everything




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (21 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes now the sport is king hitting people, especially if they are having a night out on the town and have had a couple of drinks.
> I haven't been to the entertainment precinct of Perth in 30 years, it is way too violent after dark, gangs of youths wandering around looking for trouble.
> 
> 
> ...



Wasn't going to post this bit this would be more relevant SP.








						Gunman kills 5 in Colorado LGBTQ nightclub before he is stopped by patrons
					

Police identified the suspect as a 22-year-old man, who shot at patrons with a long rifle, a weapon that can inflict devastating wounds. Authorities said they were investigating whether the attack was motivated by hate.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Wasn't going to post this bit this would be more relevant SP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are a lot of weird people in the world, the biggest flaw in society is believing that underneath everyone is nice, there are some people who aren't nice and never will be.
There are some that actually enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, one wonders if these people who target gays or religious crowds, are actually just looking for any group to attack. 








						The Chilling Story Of The Man Behind Australia's Worst Gun Massacre
					

The horrific crime spurred an immediate change to Australia's gun laws — and the country has not had a mass shooting since.




					allthatsinteresting.com


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Wasn't going to post this bit this would be more relevant SP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To get back to the topic of the thread, it is the left who  seek to pin responsibility for this attack on Chaya Raichik.

Chaya reposts their own videos, therefore holding up a mirror to the radical left and disavows violence of any kind.

This is what these nutters term stochastic terrorism.

Meanwhile, for years, Twitter has been resplendent with actual hate against white people in particular, including calls to violence and genocide.

Serves to highlight the absolutely twisted value systems of people on the extreme left including some in this thread.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> There are a lot of weird people in the world, the biggest flaw in society is believing that underneath everyone is nice, there are some people who aren't nice and never will be.
> There are some that actually enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, one wonders if these people who target gays or religious crowds, are actually just looking for any group to attack.
> 
> 
> ...



I reckon they all think they are nice.
Doing the right thing. Just twisted ideology.


----------



## IFocus (21 November 2022)

Hang on not when politicians and mainstream media (conservatives) push attacks against minority's because of  the postings of some then label all and sundry as left extremism resulting in attacks on community's.

Surely this is scumbag territory?


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Hang on not when politicians and mainstream media (conservatives) push attacks against minority's because of  the postings of some then label all and sundry as left extremism resulting in attacks on community's.
> 
> Surely this is scumbag territory?



Honestly! Listen to yourself, bro.


----------



## wayneL (23 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Hang on not when politicians and mainstream media (conservatives) push attacks against minority's because of  the postings of some then label all and sundry as left extremism resulting in attacks on community's.
> 
> Surely this is scumbag territory?



As usual, the left leap to delusions.... Colorado perp is non binary.









						Colorado club shooting suspect is nonbinary, attorneys say
					

The suspect faces multiple murder and hate crime charges over the shooting at Club Q.




					www.axios.com


----------



## wayneL (23 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> As usual, the left leap to delusions.... Colorado perp is non binary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## IFocus (23 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> As usual, the left leap to delusions.... Colorado perp is non binary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Quoting me isn't helping your cause it very much in your face what's happening in the US currently re minorities.


----------



## wayneL (23 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Quoting me isn't helping your cause it very much in your face what's happening in the US currently re minorities.



What is happening? Apart from Dem antisemitism that is?


----------



## IFocus (23 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> What is happening? Apart from Dem antisemitism that is?





Haha nothing much if you are wearing those rose clouded Republican glasses... apparently.


On a side note interesting the court findings on Republican gerrymanders found to be illegal (some states) but OK to stand for the midterms.


----------



## wayneL (23 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Haha nothing much if you are wearing those rose clouded Republican glasses... apparently.
> 
> 
> On a side note interesting the court findings on Republican gerrymanders found to be illegal (some states) but OK to stand for the midterms.



I'm not a Republican.

As I've pointed out so many times here, I am a classical liberal 





__





						Classical liberalism - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




If you could answer my question, that'd be good


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2022)

Nice:


----------



## moXJO (24 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> As usual, the left leap to delusions.... Colorado perp is non binary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's so much misinformation out there it's hard to get a read on the situation.
However he was (allegedly) raised in unusual circumstances with his dad being a previous porno actor and also teaching him mma and violence young. The are also conservative mormans.









						‘I'm sorry I let my son down’ | Father of accused Colorado club shooter speaks out
					

Aaron Brink, 48, said he praised his son for violent behavior.




					www.cbs8.com


----------



## SirRumpole (24 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Nice:
> 
> View attachment 149653




Do you have to continually quote cr@p from people who we have never heard of and care about even less ? Especially when they likely live in another country and are talking about issues of little relevance to us.

Would you like to start another thread called "Wayne's random Twitter posts from unknown people" so we can at least ignore it and not have them clutter up threads where we can at least express our own opinions and not rely on others.


----------



## moXJO (24 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Especially when they likely live in another country and are talking about issues of little relevance to us.



Oh like the Trump thread.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 November 2022)

moXJO said:


> Oh like the Trump thread.



At least we know that thread is about him and can ignore it if we want.


----------



## moXJO (24 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> At least we know that thread is about him and can ignore it if we want.



Wait?
What's stopping you on this thread???


----------



## SirRumpole (24 November 2022)

moXJO said:


> Wait?
> What's stopping you on this thread???




There may actually be some comment from members so we can have a debate.

I'm not going to the mess that is Twitter and argue with one of Wayne's "trolls of the day".


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you have to continually quote cr@p from people who we have never heard of and care about even less ? Especially when they likely live in another country and are talking about issues of little relevance to us.
> 
> Would you like to start another thread called "Wayne's random Twitter posts from unknown people" so we can at least ignore it and not have them clutter up threads where we can at least express our own opinions and not rely on others.



F*** off Horace.

It's more common than you think. If you don't want to read it, don't come into a thread titled LUNATIC LEFT.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> F*** off Horace.
> 
> It's more common than you think. If you don't want to read it, don't come into a thread titled LUNATIC LEFT.






What is more common than I think ?

Can't you express your own opinions or do you just rely on others ?


----------



## moXJO (24 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There may actually be some comment from members so we can have a debate.
> 
> I'm not going to the mess that is Twitter and argue with one of Wayne's "trolls of the day".



I don't see the difference between ignoring a thread, or a post.
I think you want to read wayneL posts to be  outraged by them.


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What is more common than I think ?
> 
> Can't you express your own opinions or do you just rely on others ?



My opinion is that the left are lunatics (and monumental hypocrites), all the rest is supporting evidence.


----------



## IFocus (24 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> My opinion is that the left are lunatics (and monumental hypocrites), all the rest is supporting evidence.





Actually most the stuff you post isn't actually left politics but generally more culture wars  of little or no relevance to the vast majority.


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Actually most the stuff you post isn't actually left politics but generally more culture wars  of little or no relevance to the vast majority.





Until your kids are given puberty blockers at school without your knowledge.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Until your kids are given puberty blockers at school without your knowledge.



That happened to you ?


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> That happened to you ?



Nothing, the left just shifted to the extreme. I stayed exactly where I always was.

Therefore, you should ask yourself that same question rather than using such stupid and fallacious argumentation.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Nothing, the left just shifted to the extreme. I stayed exactly where I always was.
> 
> Therefore, you should ask yourself that same question rather than using such stupid and fallacious argumentation.




You bought up the subject of puberty blockers so I wondered whether you had personal experience or you were just repeating propaganda.

Look, there are bat$hit crazy people at the extremes , left and right, and for all your examples of Left craziness, examples can be found the other way. Personally I think the Right loonies are dangerous, the Left ones are mostly just a nuisance.


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> You bought up the subject of puberty blockers so I wondered whether you had personal experience or you were just repeating propaganda.



You don't recognise a rhetorical device?

Here is Vic gov policy









						LGBTIQ Student Support: Policy | education.vic.gov.au
					

undefined




					www2.education.vic.gov.au
				




Note the section on parental consent and tell me things won't escalate from there.

Look, when I was at kindergarten we had pictures of flowers and innocent things, now there are rainbow flags and Lbgthqhgdgfeggdg+++ iconography.

They are unquestionably and intentionally promoting and escalating gender dysphoria in young children.

That's not whackos on the fringe. Its government policy


----------



## SirRumpole (25 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> You don't recognise a rhetorical device?
> 
> Here is Vic gov policy
> 
> ...



Believe it or not I agree with you about promoting gender dysphoria. A few radical lgbxyzs have taken over in the education area. It doesn't seem to be an election issue so it appears a lot of people don't think its important.


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Personally I think the Right loonies are dangerous, the Left ones are mostly just a nuisance.



From my observations, I think that is the perception the media promotes and is one of the main underlying causes of the frustration in society today.
The loony left are made out by the media to be just a nuisance and they have a valid reason for their behaviour.
The loony right are made out to be militant agitators who have no right to their opinion.

However if we look at violent actions, the loony left are just as responsible, as the loony right.
How many looting and rioting incidents have happened in the name of a good cause?
If you look at violent actions at polling booths, you will find most of it is perpetrated on LNP volunteers, very few if any are carried out on Labor/Green/ Independent volunteers.
But the media would have everyone believe that the LNP are the ones who are extremists, it is just a case of the media constantly reinforcing a belief, which in turn leads to public frustration.
Both extremes left and right are dangerous, to believe the left is less violent than the right is a fallacy IMO, they are both loonies.


----------



## Knobby22 (25 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> From my observations, I think that is the perception the media promotes and is one of the main underlying causes of the frustration in society today.
> The loony left are made out by the media to be just a nuisance and they have a valid reason for their behaviour.
> The loony right are made out to be militant agitators who have no right to their opinion.
> 
> ...



True
As a site based on shares and therefore definitely capitalistic, we tend to get the right wing loonies.


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> True
> As a site based on shares and therefore definitely capitalistic, we tend to get the right wing loonies.



Define right wing loonie


----------



## SirRumpole (25 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If you look at violent actions at polling booths, you will find most of it is perpetrated on LNP volunteers, very few if any are carried out on Labor/Green/ Independent volunteers.











						United Australia Party volunteer charged with intimidation over Dapto polling booth incident
					

A United Australia Party volunteer is charged with intimidation and malicious damage after an incident outside a polling booth in the Wollongong suburb of Dapto.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (25 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Define right wing loonie



Loonie: Foolish, Crazy. 

Asio describes the problem quite well.


			https://www.aspi.org.au/opinion/far-right-groups-and-conspiracy-theories-are-being-brought-together-through-internet


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Loonie: Foolish, Crazy.
> 
> Asio describes the problem quite well.
> 
> ...



You think such groups are on ASF???

Strawman fallacy, anyone?


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> United Australia Party volunteer charged with intimidation over Dapto polling booth incident
> 
> 
> A United Australia Party volunteer is charged with intimidation and malicious damage after an incident outside a polling booth in the Wollongong suburb of Dapto.
> ...



Soo... One cranky middle aged woman? 

Wow, our democracy is in danger!!


----------



## SirRumpole (25 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Soo... One cranky middle aged woman?
> 
> Wow, our democracy is in danger!!



One cranky Right Wing loony .


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> One cranky Right Wing loony .



UAP has a lot of left wing policies bro


----------



## SirRumpole (25 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> UAP has a lot of left wing policies bro




Mainly for show I'd say, to avoid the impression that it's really Right Wing loony.


----------



## IFocus (25 November 2022)

Anti-trans group raises false alarm on Victorian policy for gender diverse students​

*What was claimed*​*The verdict*​The Victorian Government can give permission for school children to undergo “gender transition” without parental knowledge or consent.False. The Victorian Government cannot give permission for a student to undergo medical gender transition. People under the age of 18 can only access gender-affirming medical treatment with consent from their parents or carers, or, failing that, by seeking a court order.









						Anti-trans group raises false alarm on Victorian policy for gender diverse students
					

Binary Australia claims the Victorian government can give permission for school children to undergo “gender transition” without parental knowledge or consent.




					www.rmit.edu.au


----------



## IFocus (25 November 2022)

Its got SFA to do left politics its a minority group pushing their own agenda 

Hazzard to ‘seek advice’ on child gender clinics​
Labor member of the New South Wales Upper House member Greg Donnelly told a Budget Estimates hearing in Sydney last week he had ‘grave concerns’ about a NSW child gender clinic after speaking with families and clinicians, the ABC reported yesterday.











						Hazzard to ‘seek advice’ on child gender clinics | The Spectator Australia
					

More than a year after child gender clinics in Europe began re-thinking puberty blockers and irreversible surgery for gender-confused children, questions are finally being asked publicly of an…




					www.spectator.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> United Australia Party volunteer charged with intimidation over Dapto polling booth incident
> 
> 
> A United Australia Party volunteer is charged with intimidation and malicious damage after an incident outside a polling booth in the Wollongong suburb of Dapto.
> ...



Does three of a kind beat your 1 ? 









						Liberal volunteer stabbing part of 'ugly campaign' in Warringah, Abbott says
					

The stabbing of a Liberal Party volunteer with a corkscrew at a polling booth outside Balgowlah Heights Public School in his seat of Warringah was 'low and vicious behaviour', former prime minister Tony Abbott says.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						One Nation polling booth volunteer attacked
					

A ONE Nation polling booth volunteer has been left bleeding after an attack in Perth today.




					www.perthnow.com.au
				






			https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/man-filmed-hurling-abuse-at-deputy-pm-barnaby-joyce-charged-with-threatening-afp-cop/news-story/51a6194a2571195509a7222ec4870bc7


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Anti-trans group raises false alarm on Victorian policy for gender diverse students​
> 
> *What was claimed*​*The verdict*​The Victorian Government can give permission for school children to undergo “gender transition” without parental knowledge or consent.False. The Victorian Government cannot give permission for a student to undergo medical gender transition. People under the age of 18 can only access gender-affirming medical treatment with consent from their parents or carers, or, failing that, by seeking a court order.
> 
> ...



Just read the govt link above for the real story


----------



## SirRumpole (25 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Liberal volunteer stabbing part of 'ugly campaign' in Warringah, Abbott says
> 
> 
> The stabbing of a Liberal Party volunteer with a corkscrew at a polling booth outside Balgowlah Heights Public School in his seat of Warringah was 'low and vicious behaviour', former prime minister Tony Abbott says.
> ...



As I said before, loonies on both sides.


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> As I said before, loonies on both sides.



Yes agreed, but one side looks a bit more than nuisance value IMO.


----------



## Knobby22 (25 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes agreed, but one side looks a bit more than nuisance value IMO.



It's worse when it's the politicians.
Candidate for Angry Victorian Party saying she wants to turn Dan Andrews to red mist. USA Euphemism for assassinating him.
From Newscorp:


			https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/politics/victorian-mp-catherine-cumming-disgusting-red-mist-threat-against-daniel-andrews/news-story/21005e080ab9c914d2668807aaba4a82


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> It's worse when it's the politicians.
> Candidate for Angry Victorian Party saying she wants to turn Dan Andrews to red mist. USA Euphemism for assassinating him.
> From Newscorp:
> 
> ...



I think all fanatics are a problem, I wasn't the one who said right wing fanatics are dangerous and left wing fanatics are just nuisance value, I think they are all dangerous.
Every one to their own and those who lean one way or the other will have their bias.


----------



## moXJO (26 November 2022)

We did have the nz mosque shooter on here


----------



## moXJO (26 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> United Australia Party volunteer charged with intimidation over Dapto polling booth incident
> 
> 
> A United Australia Party volunteer is charged with intimidation and malicious damage after an incident outside a polling booth in the Wollongong suburb of Dapto.
> ...



Dapto is full of loons


----------



## moXJO (26 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think all fanatics are a problem, I wasn't the one who said right wing fanatics are dangerous and left wing fanatics are just nuisance value, I think they are all dangerous.
> Every one to their own and those who lean one way or the other will have their bias.



I do think right wing fanatics are more dangerous. But it takes a lot to get them angry enough to start.


----------



## wayneL (26 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Liberal volunteer stabbing part of 'ugly campaign' in Warringah, Abbott says
> 
> 
> The stabbing of a Liberal Party volunteer with a corkscrew at a polling booth outside Balgowlah Heights Public School in his seat of Warringah was 'low and vicious behaviour', former prime minister Tony Abbott says.
> ...



I'd agree, bu







moXJO said:


> I do think right wing fanatics are more dangerous. But it takes a lot to get them angry enough to start.



I'd agree, but I think there are far fewer of them.


----------



## moXJO (30 November 2022)

Balenciaga asks the question 
How edgy is too pedophilia.

Some big stars getting caught in the fallout.
Media stayed very quiet about it.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2022)

Well it wont be long, before there will be something for the left to really ponder on IMO, a changing world.
Religion is not my bag, but if people think the Christians carry some baggage, well the alternative is growing faster and faster, so the opportunities for diversification are endless.









						Calls grow to disestablish Church of England as Christians become minority
					

Role of church in parliament and schools questioned as census shows 5.5m fewer holders of faith in England and Wales




					www.theguardian.com
				






			christians becoming the minority in U.k - Google Search
		










						Why Muslims are the world's fastest-growing religious group
					

The main reasons for Islam’s growth ultimately involve simple demographics.




					www.pewresearch.org


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well it wont be long, before there will be something for the left to really ponder on IMO, a changing world.
> Religion is not my bag, but if people think the Christians carry some baggage, well the alternative is growing faster and faster, so the opportunities for diversification are endless.
> 
> 
> ...



Sesquipedalians unite to call for antidisestablishmentarianism


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2022)

Just showing their forgiving, understanding and compassionate side. LOL
Cant wait to see Adam's form when he has to handle a pandemic, a closing down of the economy and facing the media music every day to give them an update.
Just showing why he isnt taken seriously IMO.








						‘Betrayal’: Greens’ leader to seek further action against Scott Morrison
					

Adam Bandt will move to refer the former prime minister to the powerful privileges committee, which could result in Morrison facing more sanctions.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Just showing their forgiving, understanding and compassionate side. LOL
> Cant wait to see Adam's form when he has to handle a pandemic, a closing down of the economy and facing the media music every day to give them an update.
> Just showing why he isnt taken seriously IMO.
> 
> ...



I really think Bandt is mentally ill; either that or evil.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> I really think Bandt is mentally ill; either that or evil.



Yes when someone is getting beaten up, it isnt a good look when a spectator runs in to lay in the boots, shows a complete lack of character IMO.
Nasty piece of work.
At the end of the day, nothing illegal was done, if Morrison had stood on the dias and said I'm getting read in to all these portfolio's, he would have been lambasted as being a control freak or for grandstanding as Abott was for his volunteer work.
It just shows how nasty and vindictive politics can get, most people whether on welfare or on salary support were looked after, its hard to believe the backlash from the supposed caring sector. Lol


----------



## Knobby22 (1 December 2022)

You need to talk to Frydenburg SP. Explain it to him.








						Josh Frydenberg tells how Scott Morrison damaged their friendship over decision to appoint himself to ministries
					

Scott Morrison began in politics with few friends and ended with even fewer. In an extract from Niki Savva’s new book, Bulldozed, those who were once closest to the former prime minister speak about feeling used and deceived.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2022)

Home school your kids, folks.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2022)

Consequences


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2022)

An exploration of fascism and where it fits in the left-right paradigm @IFocus @SirRumpole


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> You need to talk to Frydenburg SP. Explain it to him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't need another persons opinion, in order to form my own, some others should try the same tack. 🤣


----------



## Knobby22 (9 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't need another persons opinion, in order to form my own, some others should try the same tack. 🤣



Oh well, Frydenburg wlll never realise how great Morrison really was then.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Oh well, Frydenburg wlll never realise how great Morrison really was then.



History will judge Morrison, as with all politicians, not some half ar$ed media witch hunt.
Or some other politician, who wants to get his career back on track.
As will happen to the current politicians, when they are put to the media sword, which as always will happen 
I don't see any standouts from, Rudd, Gillard, Abbott, Turnbull, Morrison, maybe you see it different, everyone to their own.
I see it as a group of self serving pollies, that have ridden a wave of the Australian mineral boom, to try and keep themselves and their careers intact and ahead of the 24/7 media circus.
But for nation building, all I've seen is pandering to a nation that wants more for less, well IMO, that will come to an end very soon and it will be brought to a head around the energy issues. 
Time will tell, but I think everyone is going to get what they wish for, whether they like it or not. 🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> History will judge Morrison, as with all politicians, not some half ar$ed media witch hunt.
> Or some other politician, who wants to get his career back on track.
> As will happen to the current politicians, when they are put to the media sword, which as always will happen
> I don't see any standouts from, Rudd, Gillard, Abbott, Turnbull, Morrison, maybe you see it different, everyone to their own.
> ...



Yes well, Rudd did initiate the NBN which Abbott tried to destroy, on the other hand, Turnbull kicked off Snowy Hydro 2.0 which apparently has bi partisan support. Gillard started the NDIS, for better or worse so nation building  things have been done.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes well, Rudd did initiate the NBN which Abbott tried to destroy, on the other hand, Turnbull kicked off Snowy Hydro 2.0 which apparently has bi partisan support. Gillard started the NDIS, for better or worse so nation building  things have been done.



The NBN that the taxpayer put in to replace the copper, so that the telco's could charge us twice as much for the internet we had before and  we have now had to write off a $30bn debt the telco's were meant to pay back. Also as was stated in the early days 5G is fast become the preference for people. Nation building or an expensive brain fart, which will end up just putting free to air t.v onto a paid internet service, so those who don't wish to have the internet may end up losing decent free to air t.v.
Also, as I said in the early days of the NBN, the only saving grace for the NBN may well be the fact that it was done as fibre to the node, rather than fibre to the home as the fact the nodes could be transformed into 5g/6g transmitters may have future proofed it to a degree.









						NBN warns on fixed wireless threat
					

NBN Co says it is increasingly at risk from fixed-wireless alternatives offered by major telcos, arguing it is at a serious cost disadvantage.




					www.afr.com
				



NBN Co says it is increasingly at risk from fixed-wireless alternatives offered by major telcos, arguing it is at a serious cost disadvantage and under siege from increasing investment by smaller players in major cities.
This references efforts by Telstra, Optus and TPG Telecom, which NBN says are all advertising comparable fixed-wireless services at anywhere from $5 to $15 less than its similar fixed-line option.
Fixed-wireless services are seen as a way for telcos to fatten anaemic home internet margins where NBN dominates. With a fixed-wireless service, telcos bypass the NBN and offer internet service over a mobile signal like 5G
Former NBN chief technical officer Gary McLaren said it had taken a long time for NBN to react to this emerging threat.
“But the competition from fixed wireless is now clearly recognised as a big risk to the business and that’s appropriate,” Mr McLaren told _AFR Weekend._
NBN’s pricing paper also revealed the government-owned company would no longer seek to recover the full $44 billion sunk into the initial build and instead would only claw back $12.5 billion from retail internet providers.


Or the NDIS, that all and sundry have been ripping off, but until now no one could do anything about it, as it would have been a political attack on those most needy, but now it is o.k. as it is no longer a political attack but a review and audit.
Nation building, or outsourcing what really should be done by a government body and government workers?








						'Get off my scheme, the party's over': Bill Shorten reads the riot act to NDIS rorters
					

The minister in charge of the NDIS has vowed to track down "shonky" disability providers, telling them to "get off my scheme".




					www.abc.net.au
				






The Snowy hydro despite yourself and myself thinking it is an essential piece of infrastructure, it has its fair share of critics as we know, I don't think it is seen as nation building piece of infrastructure yet. Despite our thoughts.








						Snowy 2.0 rapidly turning into “$10 billion white elephant,” experts say
					

Open letter to the PM warns that Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro project will blow out to roughly double original cost estimates to around $10 billion.




					reneweconomy.com.au
				











						Five times the cost, twice as long: Snowy Hydro 2.0 'a drain on the public purse'
					

After taxpayers were promised Snowy Hydro 2.0 for $2 billion in four years, the project is now likely to cost five times that amount and take twice as long to be completed.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Five years on, Snowy 2.0 emerges as a $10 billion white elephant
					

There is no cause for celebration with this birthday. Snowy 2.0, having blown out to $10 billion-plus from the original $2 billion estimate, will be a burden on taxpayers, cost households more in electricity charges and damage the Kosciuszko National Park.




					www.smh.com.au
				




But hey everyone has their own take on everything, if everyone saw those P.M's as icons of leadership, they would have held their positions for longer IMO.
Did any of them do two full terms?


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Snowy hydro



There's really two big problems with Snowy 2.0

First is simply that the vast majority of public comment is from those with a vested interest in it not being built. They, or their employer, has some preferred alternative (eg gas) and see SH2 as bad simply because it's not the thing they're selling. 

Others have a purely political or ideological perspective. It's bad because they gain from criticising either the Coalition, Labor or government in general.

Some simply lack an understanding of the project, its function and realistic alternatives to it. Their comments are from a position of ignorance, failing to grasp what the alternatives actually are and aren't.

And then there are those who do raise legitimate criticism about project management, cost estimates, construction progress and so on. It's undeniably an imperfect project in many ways although, to be fair, I'll argue that comes down more to politicians demanding "best case" as what's announced rather than the more pragmatic approach those running it would take if they made the decision. 

Ultimately though if we want renewable energy, or even if we just wanted optimised fossil fuel or nuclear plant, then SH2 is extremely useful infrastructure to facilitate that. It or a direct alternative is required.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 December 2022)

Politics fundamentally is much the same as most things from meetings to hammers. Three questions should always be asked:

1. What is the desired outcome? What would constitute success?

2. Why is this outcome desired? What's the reason for it?

3. How does what you are doing, or proposing to do, contribute to achieving this outcome?

If someone can't *immediately* answer those three questions, without needing time to come up with answers, then quite simply the thing that's being done ought not be being done. If you don't know why you're having a meeting, if you don't know why you're holding a hammer, if you don't know why you're driving down whatever road, if you don't know why you're seeking election to parliament or trying to get some policy implemented then quite simply it's time wasting at best, downright dangerous at worst.

I suspect quite a few of our politicians would struggle to answer these questions. 

Those three questions work with just about anything by the way.


----------



## orr (11 December 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Politics  hammers.:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone can't *immediately* answer those three questions, without needing time to come up with answers, then quite simply the thing that's being done ought not be being done.



How's that working out for Brexit???

Dumb as a bag of hammers...


----------



## sptrawler (11 December 2022)

orr said:


> How's that working out for Brexit???
> 
> Dumb as a bag of hammers...



As usual the answer isn't simple, but obviously the majority of voters felt disenfranchised, it did go to a referendum and no doubt it will go to another in the future.
Brexit is still in the early days and the whole World economy is in a mess, so whether Brexit is a positive or a negative over the longer term, will take time to see IMO.










						13 Advantages and Disadvantages of the European Union
					

The European Union was officially founded on November 1, 1993. European treaties and alliances, however,




					vittana.org
				












						18 Advantages and Disadvantages of the European Union
					

Europe was in a terrible condition in 1946. There were two bloody wars that the continent had fought in just one generation, with both conflicts escalating to global status. Some of the countries had been




					futureofworking.com
				












						What can we know about the cost of Brexit so far?
					

The UK's GDP is 5.2 per cent smaller than a modelled ‘doppelgänger’ UK that did not leave the EU; investment is 13.7 per cent lower, and goods trade, 13.6 per cent lower. Most of those costs are down to Brexit.




					www.cer.org.uk


----------



## wayneL (26 December 2022)

What an unbelievable pile of camel dung.



			https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/champions/aussies-spend-boxing-day-trashing-bradman/news-story/4cac652ff2df1b147cd6114388415c45


----------



## SirRumpole (26 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> What an unbelievable pile of camel dung.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/champions/aussies-spend-boxing-day-trashing-bradman/news-story/4cac652ff2df1b147cd6114388415c45



"Private enterprise is entitled to rewards as long as they follow reasonable rules".

Of course they are, but who defines "reasonable " ?

 Like paying their staff a fair wage for a fair day's work, etc.


----------



## wayneL (27 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> "Private enterprise is entitled to rewards as long as they follow reasonable rules".
> 
> Of course they are, but who defines "reasonable " ?
> 
> Like paying their staff a fair wage for a fair day's work, etc.



Not the point. Calling Bradman a RWNJ for having perfectly reasonable classical liberal economic views? Years after his death.

That is the epitome lefty lunacy... and quite disgusting.


----------



## Macquack (27 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Like paying their staff a fair wage for a fair day's work, etc.



That is getting harder to gauge with so many people working from home.

I know a guy who makes over $300K working from home, juggling 2 kids, 3 dogs and 2 rabbits while the wife is out shopping for handbags.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 December 2022)

orr said:


> How's that working out for Brexit???
> 
> Dumb as a bag of hammers...



A classic example that if you don't know why you're doing it then you shouldn't be doing it.


----------



## wayneL (31 December 2022)

Re The Don, Hildebrand nails it. Adams exposed as the nasty POS he is.



			https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/hypocrisy-of-kamahladams-bradman-feud/news-story/bd18771688cb29882a055ef6f4e252b1


----------



## Logique2 (31 December 2022)

Yep.

From that link, quoting Hildebrand:


			https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/hypocrisy-of-kamahladams-bradman-feud/news-story/bd18771688cb29882a055ef6f4e252b1
		

_"..Imagine if it was said by Piers Morgan or Jeremy Clarkson about Meghan Markle. Imagine if it was said by Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt about anybody. And then imagine the white-hot nuclear outrage that would engulf the globe.
The silence you hear now is the sound of hypocrisy."_

Adams made it up, and should come clean. And at least get some points for honesty.


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2022)

Logique2 said:


> Yep.
> 
> From that link, quoting Hildebrand:
> 
> ...



Adams is an ideological idiot. He panders to the toxic fan club he has recruited in his echo chamber for years. Just glad twitter became more balanced to shine a light on these tossers.

Both sides of the spectrum seem to be taking hits. Hopefully we move closer to centre from the edges


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2022)

Wont be long before we will be voting on a republic, so these loony lefts and loony rights can really take over and make us the same as the loony republics like the U.S, Russia  China and the second and third teir loony republics. Lol
This can happen after we have changed the constitution so that we have two groups of Australians, our first people and the rest, seriously? In the name of inclusiveness?


----------

