# Execute or Rehabilitate Indonesian Style



## Tisme (3 February 2015)

Upfront, my family is the victim of drug addiction .... it destroyed a wonderful family. 

So when the Bali 9 were pinged trying to leave after the AFP tipped of the Indonesians, I was rather glad the filth who feed the likes of my son where off the streets. I discovered one of the 9 was actually an acquaintance of my son and he was a nice kid as I recall. Later someone suggested to me the Bali 9 would have been the Bali 10 had the associated family not been tipped off.

I'm pretty sure the AFP were naÃ¯ve in thinking they weren't handing these guys a death sentence, otherwise they would be breaking our laws in sending our citizens to firing squads.

So I am confused why the Indonesians would prolong the lives of people who are to be executed regardless of the courts. They did it with the Bali bombers as well.

I'm thinking there might be some spiritual significance e.g. preparation for the after life?

I think it's cruel, which must be my Christian remnants kicking in and if the death sentence is mandatory it should be done swiftly and spare the agony of the prisoner and the families. That is not to say I condone killing.

Your thoughts?


----------



## overhang (3 February 2015)

At the end of the day it is their country and their laws but it does seem bloody cruel.  These 2 have been rehabilitated, it just doesn't make sense go through the rehabilitation only to kill them anyway.  I used to have the attitude with these two that they knew full well the risks and there for must pay the crime.  But having seen several stories over the years and they have genuinely changed into individuals that would fit right back into society and can contribute to this world in a positive way.

Given Australia's laws I really feel the AFP need to review how they share information with Indonesia in the future when it involves Australians that may face the death penalty if convicted.  If Indonesia won't allow us to extradite our citizens back to Australia to serve out their crime then we probably shouldn't share information on drug related matters.

It's probable that the Bali 9 may not have had been rehabilitated if not faced with the death penalty,  I guess spending that time on death row can really help you find yourself.  It's quite cruel the process they go through now, if i recall correctly they won't be told a day their execution will take place, they will be pulled out of their cell with a bag over their head, they will be driven to an undisclosed location where they will face a firing squad.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 February 2015)

Obviously , there are mixed feelings about this.

At one level there is the reality that they knew what they were doing and should be prepared to accept the consequences. I don't really have a lot of sympathy for them, but their crime can't be compared to terrorism where there is a clear intent to kill a large number of people. As repugnant as drug smuggling is, I don't think it deserves the ultimate penalty.

I'm suspicious of their "rehabilitation". If they had got away with their crime they would be laughing over the proceeds and care nothing for their victims. I don't think their apparent "reformation" should be given any weight.

Why the AFP could not have arrested them when they returned to Australia I don't know. The plan was to smuggle drugs* into *Australia. The victims would have been Australian. It should be up to us to deal with the criminals.


----------



## chiff (3 February 2015)

I do not like the death penalty as well,and from my point of view it would be better to keep them locked up for another ten years.
Having a druggo in our family as well,I understand very well why Asian countries have no tolerance for drugs.
They lie,they steal and drag the rest of their families down with them.People unworthy of respect.The sympathy runs out.
I have an old photo that we took in the 1980s,at the time of Barlow and Chambers.The photo was taken crossing the border between Singapore and Malaysia and without finding it ,the warning sign said "The penalty for drugs is death".
In countries without a social safety net they cannot afford to be lenient with drug dealers.
Having said this wasn't Corby lucky,after being found guilty.


----------



## chiff (3 February 2015)

Whilst in Kuala Lumpur recently I had a long talk to a 68 year old local.He invited me to sit by him in a crowded cafeteria .He was articulate in English and had a relative in Australia that he had visited (Brisbane).The things that he particularly liked about Australia were the pension scheme and Medicare.
He said that his two sons provided him and his wife with enough money to live on.He said that they only bought food and never bought new clothes.He suggested that without their help he may well be begging on the streets.
When he left I shook a withered hand,thanked him for an interesting conversation, and he then limped off.
What would happen to people like this if his sons were drug addicts?
Countries where people still respect their parents and elders,and where the government for years has been preaching tolerance and respect for others.
Better to be deadly serious about drugs than let the insidious rot set in.


----------



## Atari rose (3 February 2015)

chiff said:


> What would happen to people like this if his sons were drug addicts?




The same thing that happends to the Pedafiles and other seriouse threats to the community. In 3rd world countries they just disappear, no court case, no BS they just disappear. The community just looks at it in a way that person was defective, they cannot afford people like that living in there communities.

As for the bali 9 I'm sure as **** they are sorry and I do feel for them, but looking at them I would not want them living next to me should they return to Australia.


----------



## Julia (3 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm suspicious of their "rehabilitation". If they had got away with their crime they would be laughing over the proceeds and care nothing for their victims. I don't think their apparent "reformation" should be given any weight.



I agree.  They got caught.  What option did they have other than to make the best of it in the hope that the law would change and save them from the widely known penalty, or that some angel of mercy would provide them with salvation.

If they'd got away with it, odds are that they'd go on to do it again and again.  Much less likely that they'd suddenly experience a revelation that they were doing something vile and decide to thenceforth live selfless, altruistic lives.



chiff said:


> Better to be deadly serious about drugs than let the insidious rot set in.



+1.

Re the death penalty, I'm 100% opposed to it in our own country, but the Indonesians are entitled to make their own laws.  It's not as if they don't make those laws absolutely clear.

I feel for the families of the two about to be executed.  There are plenty of instances where parents do their best for kids, but they still run amok.


----------



## IFocus (3 February 2015)

The death penalty actually doesn't change crime rates endless studies have confirmed this repeatedly.

It is unfortunately the ultimate demonstration of executive power over the masses nothing more.


----------



## Tink (4 February 2015)

Agree with all above, more needs to be done here in Australia.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21580&page=18


----------



## darkhorse70 (4 February 2015)

The only reason you'd spare the life of these people would be if they devoted their life to doing good. At least that way they could pay back some of the damage they have done to other humans. That is my idea of what rehabilitation should be.

Opposed to going back to society and living a normal life eating and drinking and enjoying life.

There in lies the problem. No one is a fortune teller, so if they get shot they get shot. 

No sleep lost.


----------



## DB008 (6 February 2015)

*Bali Nine duo Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan will be executed this month*



> INDONESIA has formally told the Australian Embassy in Jakarta that the Bali Nine duo will be executed this month.
> 
> “We have sent notification to the Australian Embassy yesterday afternoon, to notify that the execution will be held this month,” Indonesian Foreign Ministry spokesman Armanantha Nassir confirmed.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/bali-nine-duo-myuran-sukumaran-and-andrew-chan-will-be-executed-this-month/story-fnh81fz8-1227210558261


----------



## bellenuit (6 February 2015)

I don't know why Australia are contemplating taking some diplomatic action should Indonesia go ahead with the executions. Although I disagree with the death penalty for such crimes, if Australia intends to show disapproval in principle for the death penalty, then we should have taken such action for every execution, not just those of Australians.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I don't know why Australia are contemplating taking some diplomatic action should Indonesia go ahead with the executions. Although I disagree with the death penalty for such crimes, if Australia intends to show disapproval in principle for the death penalty, then we should have taken such action for every execution, not just those of Australians.




True, but I suppose it's our embassies job to look after our citizens first, but the principle is the same.

We didn't make many protests about the execution of the Bali Bombers, but if there is any crime for which execution is justified it's terrorism or genocide. The execution of drug traffickers raises the degree of their crimes to that of mass murderers which is cockeyed reasoning imo.


----------



## pixel (6 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but I suppose it's our embassies job to look after our citizens first, but the principle is the same.
> 
> We didn't make many protests about the execution of the Bali Bombers, but if there is any crime for which execution is justified it's terrorism or genocide. The execution of drug traffickers raises the degree of their crimes to that of mass murderers which is cockeyed reasoning imo.




If you had seen the misery that these drugs bring to addicts, addicts' families, victims of drug crimes and their families, you might possibly review that "cockeyed". Murder victims die once. Drug addicts die over years and often drag scores of innocent victims down with themselves.

So, mainstream Australia considers *every* human life precious and worth living, regardless of the misery its carrier brings to himself and his surroundings. Indonesia and many other countries don't hold that view, but value the life of victims - whether real and tangible, or indirect and potential - more highly than a perpetrator's. 

Such is life: Accept Indonesia's sovereignty and let them mete out punishment according to their justice system. If the drug traffickers don't like it, they can stay away from Indonesia etc. Pick a soft country and when you get caught, only risk life behind bars, no worries, no responsibilities, all expenses paid by taxpayers.


----------



## Macquack (7 February 2015)

If the execution of Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan goes ahead, I wonder if Australian tourism to Bali will be affected $$$?

I think capital punishment is barbaric, and countries that exercise this punishment are usually third world.


----------



## chiff (8 February 2015)

I think what has changed is that BBY is no longer president and his place has been taken by Joko W-much more severe on drug offences.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 February 2015)

You have to wonder if the AFP will continue to cooperate with Indonesia in drug investigations.

It would be hard politically for the government to be indirectly complicit in the murder of Australian citizens for whatever reason. If we help Indonesia, there is no reason why they can't help us if our government's opposition to the death penalty is genuine.


----------



## DB008 (8 February 2015)

I feel sorry for these 2, but they knew the rules.

Having said that, l don't think that the death penalty matches this crime. Also, there are other drug king-pins who operate in Indonesia and l bet they are in bed with the police. Killing these 2 is just to show people that they are doing something on the drug trade. Smoke and mirrors.


----------



## chiff (8 February 2015)

My guess is that any pleas or entreaties from Australia will not be successful with Joko Widodo.Before his election as president he was saying that Australia did not treat Indonesia with respect whilst the boat stopping exercise was taking place.
He has a harder edge than BBW,it seems.


----------



## Hodgie (9 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> If the execution of Myuran Sukumaran and Andrew Chan goes ahead, I wonder if Australian tourism to Bali will be affected $$$?
> 
> I think capital punishment is barbaric, and countries that exercise this punishment are usually third world.




There have been polls taken over the years which suggest that many Australian's are for capital punishment (some polls showed a result of more than 50% agreeing with this form of punishment). However, this would be saved for the worst types of crimes rather than drug related crimes as in this instance.

When the terrorists were caught for the Bali bombings back in 2002 the Australian public and even the Prime Minister (Howard) at the time supported and expected the death sentence for those individuals because so many Australians were killed. To me this shows that we as a society don't actually disagree with the death penalty we just disagree upon when it should be used.


----------



## Hodgie (9 February 2015)

Hodgie said:


> There have been polls taken over the years which suggest that many Australian's are for capital punishment (some polls showed a result of more than 50% agreeing with this form of punishment). However, this would be saved for the worst types of crimes rather than drug related crimes as in this instance.
> 
> When the terrorists were caught for the Bali bombings back in 2002 the Australian public and even the Prime Minister (Howard) at the time supported and expected the death sentence for those individuals because so many Australians were killed. To me this shows that we as a society don't actually disagree with the death penalty we just disagree upon when it should be used.




The below is extracted from an article written in 2010, you can see how public opinion can change so much on a topic such as the death penalty given a different set of circumstances, you can actually see here that one of the Bali 9 members said back then that we should have been opposed to the Bali Bombers being executed.



> Regarding the Bali bombers, John Howard, as prime minister, said that if the death penalty ''is what the law of Indonesia provides, that is how things should proceed''. Such statements undermine Australian arguments against the death penalty for Australians tried in Indonesia and elsewhere.
> 
> This has been pointed out by Scott Rush, one of the Bali Nine, who is facing death. He wrote to the government: ''I don't want to be in any way political but, from a practical point of view of someone inside on death row, it makes practical and good sense to have a consistent position of opposing the death penalty without discrimination.''




Full article; http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-penalty-no-shades-of-grey-20100301-pdgo.html


----------



## Tink (29 April 2015)

_Australians Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran have been executed by firing squad on the Indonesian prison island of Nusakambangan in the early hours of this morning.

They were killed along with six other death row prisoners on Nusakambangan prison island just before 3:30am AEST._

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-29/andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran-executed-reports/6426654


----------



## pixel (29 April 2015)

Tink said:


> _Australians Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran have been executed by firing squad on the Indonesian prison island of Nusakambangan in the early hours of this morning.
> 
> They were killed along with six other death row prisoners on Nusakambangan prison island just before 3:30am AEST._
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-29/andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran-executed-reports/6426654




May they rest in peace. I sincerely sympathise with the growing anguish and despair they must have felt during the last weeks. For them, the terror has finally ended. May they rest in peace.

May their families find closure, once the media find other victims to drag across our screens.
May the media frenzy stay long enough in some budding drug entrepreneurs' minds to deter them from similar ventures.
May Kate have her baby soon, so the media have other things to talk about.

And last, not least:*
May our politicians accept that Australia does not hold the global moral and legal yardstick over every other of the 194 Sovereign States, and get back to focus on what they were elected to do: Govern OUR Country.*


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2015)

pixel said:


> May they rest in peace. I sincerely sympathise with the growing anguish and despair they must have felt during the last weeks. For them, the terror has finally ended. May they rest in peace.
> 
> May their families find closure, once the media find other victims to drag across our screens.
> May the media frenzy stay long enough in some budding drug entrepreneurs' minds to deter them from similar ventures.
> ...




Yes, I personally think Abbott has done himself some serious damage, getting caught up in this circus.


----------



## wayneL (29 April 2015)

Just seems a shame seeing as they seemed to have genuinely rehabilitated and had the capacity to help others do the same.


----------



## pixel (29 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> Just seems a shame seeing as they seemed to have genuinely rehabilitated and had the capacity to help others do the same.




No argument there, Wayne;
From an Australian/ Western perspective, you are correct. The problem is, they committed the crime in Indonesia, a country with different views of the value of an individual life versus rights and demands of the broader community.

There is no point in criticising their legal system. It differs from ours, and that's it. If we don't like theirs, we can either stay away or respect it while there. However, criticising the President of a sovereign country for acting within his boundaries *and bringing one's own generosity into the open debate* is such a huge diplomatic _faux pas_ that Joko Widodo could never have relented afterwards. He would have completely lost face, the most valuable currency in any Asian country.

PS: As regards "capacity to help others", IW may point out the deterring effect that the broad publicity of the summary execution may have *on Indonesians.* Similar to Australians crying almost exclusively over the death of two Australians, mostly ignoring the plight of the other 8 that shared the same destiny, the Indonesian President will do what, in his mind and world view, affects the Indonesian people. Whether we agree with him or not is utterly irrelevant to him.


----------



## Value Collector (29 April 2015)

I used to be in favour of executions for certain crimes, but hearing this story changed my mind.

It sends chills up my spine to think an innocent man had to not only go through the drama of having his daughters killed, but then get executed for there murder when he was innocent.


----------



## wayneL (29 April 2015)

No argument from me there Pixel. Aside from the intentionally narrow view expressed, I'm standing aside from the broader debate.

It's a lose-lose.


----------



## pixel (29 April 2015)

Let me make it quite clear, VC:
*I am not defending the death penalty. It clashes with my perception of civility and humanity* 
I am defending the right of a Sovereign Nation to set its own rules and mete out justice accordingly.

I wonder whether there would be a similar media circus if Christoper Lane's killers were sentenced to death and executed in Oklahoma. Would Tony Abbott remind the US President of our help in Iraq...:1zhelp:


----------



## chiff (29 April 2015)

What the Indonesians did was not only execute these people,but they tortured them for ten years-with the death sentence hanging over them.
I cannot but think that the triumphalism shown by the current government over the success of the turn back the boats policy put Australia in a no-win situation with Widodo.
I heard Tony Abbott say the he respected Indonesian sovereignty.Well my guess is that the Indonesians think the opposite after Australian warships made quite a few incursions into Indonesian waters.
I think that Julie Bishop is well suited to diplomacy,but the cards were stacked against her from the start.


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2015)

pixel said:


> Let me make it quite clear, VC:
> *I am not defending the death penalty. It clashes with my perception of civility and humanity*
> I am defending the right of a Sovereign Nation to set its own rules and mete out justice accordingly.
> 
> I wonder whether there would be a similar media circus if Christoper Lane's killers were sentenced to death and executed in Oklahoma. Would Tony Abbott remind the US President of our help in Iraq...:1zhelp:




I agree with you pixel, is this media and political response going to be the norm, from here on?

I don't recall this amount of reaction, when Malaysia executed Chambers and Barlow, a few years back.


----------



## Value Collector (29 April 2015)

pixel said:


> Let me make it quite clear, VC:
> *I am not defending the death penalty. It clashes with my perception of civility and humanity*
> 
> I am defending the right of a Sovereign Nation to set its own rules and mete out justice accordingly.




I understand that, I was just giving my opinion.

However, at some point the rights of sovereign Nations end,  and human rights over rule. eg, we can hardly say that the holocaust was within the rights of Germany as a sovereign nation.


----------



## luutzu (29 April 2015)

pixel said:


> May they rest in peace. I sincerely sympathise with the growing anguish and despair they must have felt during the last weeks. For them, the terror has finally ended. May they rest in peace.
> 
> May their families find closure, once the media find other victims to drag across our screens.
> May the media frenzy stay long enough in some budding drug entrepreneurs' minds to deter them from similar ventures.
> ...




Yea, may they rest in peace.

I personally don't think such crimes as drug smuggling is "worth" the death penalty, but like you said, it's their country and their laws.

Don't know why our political leaders "try" to help them the way they did. You'd think they have a direct line to the Indonesian president, or could send people there and plead or use other diplomatic means... do things behind the scene. 

It's impossible to to change people's mind with a bullhorn sitting on your high horse making threats. Sad thing is these politicians knew that.. .guess they just can't help but want their extra 15 minutes of air time.


----------



## tech/a (29 April 2015)

*Couple of things*

(1) Hypocrisy in Indonesia pleading for the life of their own. 

(2) Bribes were offered $130K and you get 20 yrs not the death penalty.

Which leads me to 

(3) What happened to the drugs they were caught with
Shapelle Corby's as well for that matter?

Get my drift?


----------



## gordon2007 (29 April 2015)

I find this news article repulsive. 

http://www.news.com.au/…/bali-…/story-fnh81fz8-1227326038120

Yes, the penalty of death was extreme. And yes I feel for their friends and family. But to say the AFP have blood on their hands washes away the fact that these two individuals willfully broke the law knowing full well they could face the death penalty. Nobody knows what these two would be doing today had they not been caught.
All these calls for a boycott of Bali and other stupid ramifications is just a media frenzy. 

Much like barely anyone remembers the name Van Tuong Nguyen, so too will the news media forget this in due time.


----------



## trainspotter (29 April 2015)

Dua kesalahan tidak menjadi golongan kanan - Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Joko Widodo had no where to turn on this one. Release the drug smuggling Australians and be seen as politically weak in his own country and globally. Bit more than just the nine Aussies who got caught smuggling *8.3kg *of HEROIN going on in the political landscape of Indonesia by the way.

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/j...ss-or-corruption/story-fnh81fz8-1227225969978



> Jokowi, after weeks of dithering, suspended the nomination but named an interim police chief who is just as dubious. Why did Jokowi make such a bad choice? Was Mr Clean really Mr Dirty? According to Indonesian media, it was at the behest of Megawati. Gunawan had once served as her aide.




http://www.smh.com.au/comment/indon...orrupt-thumb-of-megawati-20150428-1muhkk.html



> "Megawati said to him at the party congress, '_Why haven't the executions been carried out already – you aren't buckling to foreign pressure, are you?_'" says Greg Fealy, a leading ANU scholar of Indonesia.
> 
> "The politics is that *death penalty is extremely popular *in Indonesia, Jokowi is slipping in the polls, he's desperate to turn it around, and of the available issues this is the most readily available on which he's looking strong, according to most Indonesians," says Fealy.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2015)

There are obviously many different angles that could be taken to this story. Desire for deterrence (evidence weak that it has any effect), local politics (evidence strong), but there are also discrepancies and backhanders thrown by the Indonesians and the ignoring by the President of his own Constitution which says that reformed prisoners should not be executed.

Those 2 blokes, idiots that they were, were shot after 10 years in gaol, while terrorists who ACTUALLY KILLED innocent people are being released from Indonesian gaols.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...are-walking-free/story-fni0cx12-1226904341271


We are certainly entitled to  look at these discrepancies and ask what Indonesia's hidden agenda towards other countries might be. Let terrorists off lightly if they happen to be your own citizens, but murder foreigners when you can.


It's a very disturbing time in our relationship with them.
--


----------



## luutzu (29 April 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> There are obviously many different angles that could be taken to this story. Desire for deterrence (evidence weak that it has any effect), local politics (evidence strong), but there are also discrepancies and backhanders thrown by the Indonesians and the ignoring by the President of his own Constitution which says that reformed prisoners should not be executed.
> 
> Those 2 blokes, idiots that they were, were shot after 10 years in gaol, while terrorists who ACTUALLY KILLED innocent people are being released from Indonesian gaols.
> 
> ...




Just saw that Australia gave them some 680 million in foreign aids... so this is a good excuse to "review" that and other carrots of foreign policies... will end up giving less. Looks bad if we say we're cutting back because we're a bit poorer now, better if it's for moral outrage and stuff. Once this is all over, we'll think about "giving" a bit more but demand more cooperations and free trade.

Who knows, maybe after this the Indonesian will just tell the AFP to catch their own criminals and let Australia pay the cost of their imprisonment.


----------



## bellenuit (29 April 2015)

At least the Filipino maid was spared, at least temporarily. She claimed that she was set up by people back in the Philippines and didn't know she was carrying drugs. The people who who set her up confessed to Philippine authorities just in time to stay the execution.

This is what makes the death penalty so abhorrent. She too could have been executed, though it appears was completely innocent.

*Facing execution in Indonesia, Filipina maid gets last-minute reprieve*

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/29/asia/mary-jane-veloso-stay-of-execution/index.html


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2015)

luutzu said:


> Just saw that Australia gave them some 680 million in foreign aids... so this is a good excuse to "review" that and other carrots of foreign policies... will end up giving less. Looks bad if we say we're cutting back because we're a bit poorer now, better if it's for moral outrage and stuff. Once this is all over, we'll think about "giving" a bit more but demand more cooperations and free trade.
> 
> Who knows, maybe after this the Indonesian will just tell the AFP to catch their own criminals and let Australia pay the cost of their imprisonment.




Given the tragedy in Nepal we could justify giving all the aid we give to Indonesia to Nepal where its going to go a lot more good.

Maybe we could also justify not giving any aid to countries that spend a lot on militaries, on the grounds that they should spend their money relieving poverty first.


----------



## Macquack (29 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I don't recall this amount of reaction, when Malaysia executed Chambers and Barlow, *a few years back*.




A few years back? How about 29 years back.

I was angry then and I am more angry now.

"Dodo" Widodo just crossed off Australia as a possible destination (including any political junket conventions).

We can only hope that one day he seeks exile in Australia escaping from his criminal activities in Indonesia. Then we will give it to him Australian style and wipe that stupid grin off his face.


----------



## IFocus (29 April 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Dua kesalahan tidak menjadi golongan kanan - Two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> Joko Widodo had no where to turn on this one. Release the drug smuggling Australians and be seen as politically weak in his own country and globally. Bit more than just the nine Aussies who got caught smuggling *8.3kg *of HEROIN going on in the political landscape of Indonesia by the way.
> 
> ...





Yes in the end it was a political decision, Widodo is not from the Indonesian political elite so killing foreigners is one way of shoring up support not to mention orchestrating the charade with the Australian relatives running them through the press not like the rest that with driven though.


----------



## banco (29 April 2015)

gordon2007 said:


> I find this news article repulsive.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/…/bali-…/story-fnh81fz8-1227326038120
> 
> ...




Whether or not they have blood on their hands they are complete morons (the AFP).  They knew (and if they didn't they are even stupider than I think) that if they were caught in Indonesia they faced the death penalty.  So they helped set in motion a chain of events that has led to two Australians being executed and the biggest crisis in Indonesia/Australia relations since 1999.  Good job.


----------



## tech/a (29 April 2015)

banco said:


> Whether or not they have blood on their hands they are complete morons (the AFP).  They knew (and if they didn't they are even stupider than I think) that if they were caught in Indonesia they faced the death penalty.  So they helped set in motion a chain of events that has led to two Australians being executed and the biggest crisis in Indonesia/Australia relations since 1999.  Good job.




Like most on this site
Perfect 20/20 hind site.

Drugs were coming out of Indonesia 
Why shouldn't they be tipped off there was
A ring loading up. Their drugs--- their problem
Why should we fit the bill for 9 in our jails!
They'd be back on the streets now.----great.


----------



## Macquack (29 April 2015)

banco said:


> Whether or not they have blood on their hands they are complete morons (the AFP).  They knew (and if they didn't they are even stupider than I think) that if they were caught in Indonesia they faced the death penalty.  So they helped set in motion a chain of events that has led to two Australians being executed and the biggest crisis in Indonesia/Australia relations since 1999.  Good job.




Totally agree.

What amazes me is that the Indonesians who could not organise a piss up at a brewery, *could not stop a single boat load of people smugglers*, who shows total contempt for the Australian government, *so the Federal police co-operate with them to reduce their own work load*. Laziness is no excuse, of course they have blood on their hands.


----------



## banco (29 April 2015)

tech/a said:


> Like most on this site
> Perfect 20/20 hind site.
> 
> Drugs were coming out of Indonesia
> ...




I think you need to look up the definition of hindsight.  You're saying the AFP didn't know at the time that drug smuggling potentially carried the death penalty in Indonesia?  It's a simple matter of connecting A to B.


----------



## banco (29 April 2015)

Macquack said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> What amazes me is that the Indonesians who could not organise a piss up at a brewery, *could not stop a single boat load of people smugglers*, who shows total contempt for the Australian government, *so the Federal police co-operate with them to reduce their own work load*. Laziness is no excuse, of course they have blood on their hands.




It wasn't laziness. They were trying curry favour with the Indonesians.


----------



## moXJO (29 April 2015)

I have zero sympathy for drug dealers. However in this instance we did see a fantastic case of rehabilitation. What I do find morbidly amusing is that instead of holding these two up as examples of how well their program works, they shoot them. 

If they were the same scum from ten years ago, fair enough. But to waste a genuine effort of change seems cruel.
Perhaps it allowed them to atone for their crime and gain peace in those final moments.


----------



## tech/a (29 April 2015)

banco said:


> So they helped set in motion a chain of events that has led to two Australians being executed and the biggest crisis in Indonesia/Australia relations since 1999.  Good job.




10 yrs ago they " knew " this was going to be the result.
If they were executed in the first 12 mths---then what?


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2015)

tech/a said:


> Like most on this site
> Perfect 20/20 hind site.
> 
> Drugs were coming out of Indonesia
> ...




I'm with you, why is it o.k to knowingly let drugs be sent to another country, when we don't want drugs coming into ours?
Because they shoot people, we don't telll them? or we knowingly compromise a criminal investigation, because it may end badly for the criminals?

Their bodies have been sent back to Australia, I wonder who paid for it?

I have seen many charity appeals, to bring back normal law abiding people, who were killed O/S, where the family couldn't afford it. 
Why shouldn't the Government foot that cost?

Don't get me wrong, I thought the whole thing was tacky. 
I just think we are making out, the death of convicted criminals, is more worthy than the death of non criminal Australians who are killed O/S.

Whether they deserved to be killed for drug trafficking, isn't the issue IMO, if they had been killed on a botched up drug deal on the streets of Jakarta, would the Government be spending as much?

Or indeed would the media give a $hit.

If they are so against the barbaric death penalty, then get onto all the other countries that still have the death penalty.

Otherwise shut up and let Australians decide if it is worth the risk of the death penalty, to smuggle drugs into these countries.

The risk is high and the rewards are high, what has changed? Other than the media want to make a circus, of a business venture, turned bad.

What I can't understand, is how our Government were drawn so far in, crazy stuff.:1zhelp:


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2015)

Macquack said:


> A few years back? How about 29 years back.
> 
> I was angry then and I am more angry now.
> 
> ...




Jeez, that time has gone quickly, 29 years ago unbelievable.


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2015)

banco said:


> Whether or not they have blood on their hands they are complete morons (the AFP).  They knew (and if they didn't they are even stupider than I think) that if they were caught in Indonesia they faced the death penalty.  So they helped set in motion a chain of events that has led to two Australians being executed and the biggest crisis in Indonesia/Australia relations since 1999.  Good job.




So following on with your reasoning, we shouldn't intervene to stop any criminal activist coming here, if the penalty at the source isn't nice?

If for example the AFP, have reason to believe a person or persons are going to bring in anthrax or sarin to Australia.

But they are coming from a country that has the death penalty, for carrying those substances. The authorities in that country shouldn't be informed?

Good Job.:1zhelp:

Jeez we live in a weird society, media driven opinion, seems to override common sense these days


----------



## banco (30 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> So following on with your reasoning, we shouldn't intervene to stop any criminal activist coming here, if the penalty at the source isn't nice?
> 
> If for example the AFP, have reason to believe a person or persons are going to bring in anthrax or sarin to Australia.
> 
> ...




Your ability to reason isn't very good. AFP's intelligence was that they were going to try and import the heroin into Australia. They could have pulled them aside at the Australian airport before they left the country and told them the Indonesians knew they were coming or they could have picked them up when they landed in Australia.

The AFP are a bunch of **** ups (see Haneef) who get themselves into these situations and then try to spin their way out.


----------



## qldfrog (30 April 2015)

banco said:


> Your ability to reason isn't very good. AFP's intelligence was that they were going to try and import the heroin into Australia. They could have pulled them aside at the Australian airport before they left the country and told them the Indonesians knew they were coming



Seriously, and give them a lollipop if they behave.
Remind me of the "do not chase car thief 'cause they could endanger themselves.
I mean banco should i post on this thread each drug overdose in this country and make you realise what these murderers are really?
We are not talking pot here, they were guilty which is not a given for all the sentenced in Indonesia, I only pity their relatives.
I am always amazde at some of the bleeding heart reactions in case like that; during that time, millions are homeless in Nepal; THEY deserve coverage, compassion and our government help.


----------



## Tink (30 April 2015)

I do not agree with the death penalty, but as many have said, their country, their laws.
If you don't want to be in this predicament, then don't sell/do drugs.
Get a real job.

Every time a drug addict is on the news, Australia does this, and I just cannot understand it.
No wonder we have so many drug problems in society.
Maybe people need to take more responsibility for their actions, rather than blaming Abbott, the AFP etc

These people were on drugs at the age of 13-14 years old, this is from Australia, so how did that come about?
This is what we are seeing now.
Something is wrong here in our society, and I am sick of seeing drug addicts hurting others.
The drugs were being brought here to hurt more families.
Our justice system is pathetic.

Yes, it's sad that they were rehabilitated, and ten years later they executed them.
Would they have stayed on the straight and narrow, we will never know.

One of them has now written a book with all details that he has given to his brother. 
All his friends and associates are dead or in jail, says a lot, going from the article.


----------



## Tisme (30 April 2015)

banco said:


> Whether or not they have blood on their hands they are complete morons (the AFP).  They knew (and if they didn't they are even stupider than I think) that if they were caught in Indonesia they faced the death penalty.  So they helped set in motion a chain of events that has led to two Australians being executed and the biggest crisis in Indonesia/Australia relations since 1999.  Good job.




Father of one goes to police to stop trip,

result :-

Murder by proxy


----------



## tech/a (30 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> Father of one goes to police to stop trip,
> 
> result :-
> 
> Murder by proxy




Why didn't he simply talk with his son?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2015)

tech/a said:


> Why didn't he simply talk with his son?




Sons don't always listen or pay any attention to what is being said.


----------



## tech/a (30 April 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Sons don't always listen or pay any attention to what is being said.




Well if it was my son and I knew he was even thinking of doing something as stupid as what these lot did
Id be glued to his side---it simply wouldn't happen.

Fortunately I don't have to concern myself with Drug issues and my crew.
Brother --- vastly different story.--A really nasty nasty piece of work.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2015)

tech/a said:


> Brother --- vastly different story.--A really nasty nasty piece of work.




Would you dob him in to the cops ?


----------



## tech/a (30 April 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Would you dob him in to the cops ?




Private mailed you.
He is well known to police.


----------



## McLovin (30 April 2015)

tech/a said:


> Why didn't he simply talk with his son?




Outside of Leave it to Beaver this doesn't really bear out in reality.

The AFP have some questions to answer. Even Blind Freddy would have had the foresight to know the outcome of a group caught with commercial quantities of heroin in Indonesia. It's worth remembering that Australia does not allow the extradition of suspects to other countries where they would face charges that carry the death penalty. The AFP already knew of the existence of this drug ring before they left Australia and could have apprehended them at the airport on suspicion, for some reason they chose to use them as live bait _and_ informed the Indonesians.

Indonesia has a right to do as it sees fit with those convicted in her courts, but they've acted like a bunch of wombats in the manner in which they've carried out this sentence.


----------



## tech/a (30 April 2015)

> Outside of Leave it to Beaver this doesn't really bear out in reality.





If it doesn't in any family then there is something seriously wrong

As there was/is in Rush's case.


----------



## McLovin (30 April 2015)

tech/a said:


> If it doesn't in any family then there is something seriously wrong




Well yes. I think when you're kid is considering transporting heroin out of Bali there is something seriously wrong. I don't think it's as easy as you make out though to stop an adult from doing something, which is no doubt why he reached out to the AFP for help.


----------



## sptrawler (30 April 2015)

banco said:


> Your ability to reason isn't very good. AFP's intelligence was that they were going to try and import the heroin into Australia. They could have pulled them aside at the Australian airport before they left the country and told them the Indonesians knew they were coming or they could have picked them up when they landed in Australia.
> 
> The AFP are a bunch of **** ups (see Haneef) who get themselves into these situations and then try to spin their way out.




Who is to say that would have done any good.

The AFP and the Government have told everyone not to go to Syria and join ISIS, do you think it has stopped those who want to go? They face the likelyhood of being shot and up on return to Australia criminal charges, people still go.

It isn't the responsibility of the police to inform people that they are the target of a criminal investigation. 
It is the responsibility of the criminal to assess the risk / reward of the criminal act.

The police every night on t.v ,tell people speeding in a car can lead to loss of control and subsequent death.

Does that stop people doing 200klm/hr down the road? No.

When do you let people take responsibility for their own actions?

The police were following a case that would lead them to a drug ring, before they left Australia they had done nothing wrong, why would you tell them you were watching them?
They are probably watching heaps of suspected drug users, that leave Australia, for an Asian holiday.
You want the police to give them a personal warning.

Since when has policing become parenting? 

You may as well park the police at the airport, to tell every older male traveller to Asia, that pedophelia is a crime in Asia and they could end up in serious trouble.

I understand people think executing people is wrong and I agree, however if people weigh up the risk/ reward and chose to take the risk, they no doubt will just be more careful if you warn them.
I doubt very much, you would change their motivation.

Just my opinion, and yes I know speeding may kill me, and yes I ride a motorcycle, therefore my risk of serious injury or death is much higher. The police have told me and I still do it.


----------



## banco (30 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> The police were following a case that would lead them to a drug ring, before they left Australia they had done nothing wrong, why would you tell them you were watching them?
> They are probably watching heaps of suspected drug users, that leave Australia, for an Asian holiday.
> You want the police to give them a personal warning.




There's a big difference between been told that you might get caught speeding as it's illegal and there's speed cameras and being told the police know you're coming, they know your names etc. 

Again in case you haven't been reading the newspapers the consequences of the bali 9 getting caught have been rather serious for Australian/Indonesian relations.  So it might have been worthwhile for officer plod from the AFP to have confronted them at Sydney airport (they have AFP posted at the airport anyway).  

To add to the AFP's reputation for incompetence they never did catch anyone further up the chain in the drug trafficking ring and apparently the Mr Big has since won the lottery (not in the metaphorical sense) and is retired and living well in Sydney.


----------



## tech/a (30 April 2015)

banco said:


> There's a big difference between been told that you might get caught speeding as it's illegal and there's speed cameras and being told the police know you're coming, they know your names etc.
> 
> Again in case you haven't been reading the newspapers the consequences of the bali 9 getting caught have been rather serious for Australian/Indonesian relations.  So it might have been worthwhile for officer plod from the AFP to have confronted them at Sydney airport (they have AFP posted at the airport anyway).
> 
> To add to the AFP's reputation for incompetence they never did catch anyone further up the chain in the drug trafficking ring and apparently the Mr Big has since won the lottery (not in the metaphorical sense) and is retired and living well in Sydney.




Just cant fathom this type of response.

Why couldn't Dad have said this.

"Son as you know I know ----in the AFP.
I know your going to attempt to smuggle drugs out of Bali to Australia.
You realise its the death penalty if you get caught in Bali! 
I've notified them of what your going to do so they are fully aware.

If you need help and are in this too deep to think you cant pull out then
come with me to ---- and we will sort it out
Goes for all your friends caught up in this as well.
Don't make the one mistake in life that completely ruins it."

He could then rattle off any number of examples.

Take responsibility-------------


----------



## sptrawler (30 April 2015)

banco said:


> Again in case you haven't been reading the newspapers the consequences of the bali 9 getting caught have been rather serious for Australian/Indonesian relations.
> .




As I said in an earlier post, Abbott may rue the day he got involved in the debacle.

I'm sure there are just as many people, who think the drug ring leaders deserved what they got, as people who disagree with the outcome.

It just doesn't whip up as much media hysteria.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> As I said in an earlier post, Abbott may rue the day he got involved in the debacle.
> 
> I'm sure there are just as many people, who think the drug ring leaders deserved what they got, as people who disagree with the outcome.
> 
> It just doesn't whip up as much media hysteria.




There certainly wasn't as much emotion and sympathy here for the Bali bombers who were executed.

Most Aussies would have cheered and said "serves them right", so there is an inconsistency that we have to sort out if we try and say that all capital punishment is evil.

I think that the only thing that warrants it is mass murder, terrorism and genocide. Drug smuggling is certainly evil, but is not the worst of crimes and it shouldn't be treated as such.


----------



## Macquack (30 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Because they shoot people, *we don't telll them*? or we knowingly compromise a criminal investigation, because it may end badly for the criminals?




Think this through.

From now on, *no parent with ever tip off the Australian Federal Police if they know of their child being involved in a international drug smuggling operation.*

Consequently, *more drugs will flow into Australia.*

The best outcome in the Bali Nine case would have been that they were all apprehended in Australia and did "extended" time in Australian jails.

The heartless, bloodless conservatives in Australia need a wake up call.


----------



## IFocus (30 April 2015)

banco said:


> Your ability to reason isn't very good. AFP's intelligence was that they were going to try and import the heroin into Australia. They could have pulled them aside at the Australian airport before they left the country and told them the Indonesians knew they were coming or they could have picked them up when they landed in Australia.
> 
> The AFP are a bunch of **** ups (see Haneef) who get themselves into these situations and then try to spin their way out.





Agree the level of sophistication shown by the AFP = 0

The AFP have blood on their hands as anyone can see whether it was for intelligence we don't know about or what ever their reputation as a clever sophisticated organisation is shot to hell and who in the hell would ever trust them?

Plus they now have total access to your life though data retention laws go AFP


----------



## sptrawler (30 April 2015)

Macquack said:


> Think this through.
> 
> From now on, *no parent with ever tip off the Australian Federal Police if they know of their child being involved in a international drug smuggling operation.*
> 
> ...




That is on the assumption, that they wouldn't be found going through customs in Indonesia. There was every likely hood they would have been detected anyway. The whole argument is silly.

It also makes the assumption, they were coming back to Australia, what if they went to NZ.

They couldn't be apprehended, before they left Australia, because they had done nothing wrong.

Also it requires Australian Police, knowingly withhold information, that a criminal activity is happening in a neighbouring country. That really amounts to aiding and abetting, which would have massive ramifications if they somehow weren't apprehended by the AFP.

How would we like it, if say the Indonesian police suspected a group of Indonesians, were coming to Australia to carry out a terrorist act. 
But Indonesian police don't tell us, because they feel it better to deal with them when they return home.

It is emotional nonsense.


----------



## noco (30 April 2015)

Macquack said:


> Think this through.
> 
> From now on, *no parent with ever tip off the Australian Federal Police if they know of their child being involved in a international drug smuggling operation.*
> 
> ...




Do you really think after what has happened with the two executions that others will risk doing the same?

These two fellows knew the risk...there are signs at the international airport about the death penalty for trafficking drugs.....They took the took the risk and got caught....Even though one of the  fathers tipped off the AFP...They would in every possibility have been caught in Indonesia.

They had some 85,000 doses strapped to their bodies....How many kids may have overdosed and died as a result of their foolishness?


----------



## Macquack (30 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> That is on the assumption, that they wouldn't be found going through customs in Indonesia. There was *every likely hood *they would have been detected anyway. The whole argument is silly.



The Indonesians were tipped off, hardly "every likely hood they would have been detected anyway".



sptrawler said:


> It also makes the assumption, they were coming back to Australia, what if they went to NZ.



The AFP are not responsible for NZ.



sptrawler said:


> They couldn't be apprehended, before they left Australia, because *they had done nothing wrong*.



Same does not apply to Syria bound tourists



sptrawler said:


> Also it requires Australian Police, knowingly withhold information, that a criminal activity is happening in a neighbouring country. That really amounts to aiding and abetting, which would have *massive ramifications *if they somehow weren't apprehended by the AFP.



The AFP were not instrumental in gaining the information. *They were tipped off.* I am making the point that they will not be tipped off ever again by a informed parent of a drug smuggler. It was a easy pay day for the AFP, game is over.


----------



## Macquack (30 April 2015)

noco said:


> Do you really think after what has happened with the two executions that *others will risk doing the same?*



Will the sun come up tomorrow


noco said:


> *These two fellows *knew the risk...there are signs at the international airport about the death penalty for trafficking drugs.....They took the took the risk and got caught....Even though one of the  fathers tipped off the AFP...They would in every possibility have been caught in Indonesia.



They were tipped off, end of story.


noco said:


> They had some 85,000 doses strapped to their bodies....How many kids may have overdosed and died as a result of their *foolishness*?




Noco you need a better term than "foolishness" to send someone to the firing squad.

I will say it again, the AFP's actions will backfire on them.


----------



## sptrawler (30 April 2015)

Macquack said:


> The Indonesians were tipped off, hardly "every likely hood they would have been detected anyway".
> 
> 
> The AFP are not responsible for NZ.
> ...




It is obviously pointless discussing it further.:1zhelp:


----------



## SirRumpole (1 May 2015)

> How would we like it, if say the Indonesian police suspected a group of Indonesians, were coming to Australia to carry out a terrorist act.
> But Indonesian police don't tell us, because they feel it better to deal with them when they return home.




That's not a relevant analogy.

The real effect of the drug crime would have occurred in Australia when the drugs were sold. It would have had very little effect in Indonesia because the drugs would not be used there.

Indonesian terrorists would have caused damage in Australia and then returned home.

Indonesia ignored their own Constitution and the advice of the prison governor who said that the two had reformed.

This smacks of an execution for political purposes and is therefore abhorrent.


----------



## Tisme (1 May 2015)

tech/a said:


> If it doesn't in any family then there is something seriously wrong
> 
> As there was/is in Rush's case.




What do you know about Scott Rush's family that rest of us don't? I can tell you that they were overtly decent people when I met them prior to Scott's misadventure.

I can also tell you Scott himself was a very amiable, polite and seemingly sensible lad. That he fell into the allure of risk taking is demonstrable just how youth (as always) consider themselves invulnerable and invisible.

Too easy to paint kids with adult paint and judge them accordingly. Too easy as a superior parent to consider their own spawn as superior to others because of superior parenting.


----------



## tech/a (1 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> What do you know about Scott Rush's family that rest of us don't? I can tell you that they were overtly decent people when I met them prior to Scott's misadventure.
> 
> I can also tell you Scott himself was a very amiable, polite and seemingly sensible lad. That he fell into the allure of risk taking is demonstrable just how youth (as always) consider themselves invulnerable and invisible.
> 
> Too easy to paint kids with adult paint and judge them accordingly. Too easy as a superior parent to consider their own spawn as superior to others because of superior parenting.




Don't have to know him or his parents.

There was something seriously wrong with the relationship as a family unit.

What do I know
My wife and I have been involved with street kids for 20 yrs.
Pretty well qualified to comment on dysfunctional families
Got a heap of kids who aren't biologically mine who call me dad and
Lots of Grand kids.

If there is one thing I have observed in all these years.
If you put the time you have to into kids
Respect them as individuals and you'll get the respect back.

Never under estimate the value of a father in a family.
Of all the kids off the right track the larger majority don't
Have a father/figure INVOLVED in their life.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 May 2015)

> Never under estimate the value of a father in a family.
> Of all the kids off the right track the larger majority don't
> Have a father/figure INVOLVED in their life.




Yet your own situation seems to indicate that good parenting does not always work.

You obviously grew up to be an intelligent caring person, but your brother went in the other direction.

Is this your parent's fault ?


----------



## tech/a (1 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yet your own situation seems to indicate that good parenting does not always work.
> 
> You obviously grew up to be an intelligent caring person, but your brother went in the other direction.
> 
> Is this your parent's fault ?




Yes it is 100% and they would be the first to admit it.
I know exactly why and when it happened.

So by the way do many of the parents who have wayward kids
they often repeat their own situations---life experiences. You have to have that 
mutual respect from as early as 5yrs old. Yes it can be developed
at a later age but rarely from the original parents. A third
party can fill a void.

Getting off the track is often due to parental issues.
Staying on that track is often the choice of the individual.
Prevention better than cure---certainly is in these cases---in my view.


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That's not a relevant analogy.
> 
> The real effect of the drug crime would have occurred in Australia when the drugs were sold. It would have had very little effect in Indonesia because the drugs would not be used there.




As I said in an earlier post, what if the traffickers intended to take the drugs to NZ instead of Australia?

Then NZ finds out the AFP has knowledge but didn't disclose it, we would then have a real circus.

Imagine the headlnes

 " AFP assists drug ring to get drugs past Indonesian customs, and deliver them to NZ".

 " AFP assist international drug smugglers, to protect their safety"

What an absolute hoot that would be.

It is all nonsense, people need to get a grip of reality, police can't be seen to be helping criminals carry out an illegal act.

Jeez people have lost the plot. 
The papers would have a field day, it would be a bigger circus, than has happen to date.

Now that would be a real international incident, that would have global implications and ramifications, for Australia and the AFP.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 May 2015)

> As I said in an earlier post, what if the traffickers intended to take the drugs to NZ instead of Australia?
> 
> Then NZ finds out the AFP has knowledge but didn't disclose it, we would then have a real circus.




NZ does not have the death penalty, so the AFP would have no problem tipping off NZ authorities who would arrest the drug mules when they entered NZ.

I think your analogy is a bit pear shaped.


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> NZ does not have the death penalty, so the AFP would have no problem tipping off NZ authorities who would arrest the drug mules when they entered NZ.
> 
> I think your analogy is a bit pear shaped.




Obviously our perceptions are different, so be it.

One last question. 
Should the trafficking of explosives or movement of suspected terrorists, go unreported by the AFP if it is through a country that carries the death penalty, for said offence?


----------



## McLovin (1 May 2015)

tech/a said:


> Yes it is 100% and they would be the first to admit it.
> I know exactly why and when it happened.




What was that you were saying about hindsight?

So many false equivalencies being tossed around in this thread. The drugs were being smuggled from Indonesia to Australia. There was no intention to sell or supply drugs in Indonesia by the criminal ring. The AFP had no operational reason to inform the Indonesians. If they felt it was good practise to let them know then it should have been referred to the AG and/or DFAT for approval. How the AFP would have reacted if someone was attempting to smuggle anthrax into Botswana is neither here nor there.


----------



## tech/a (1 May 2015)

McLovin said:


> What was that you were saying about hindsight?




Don't see the relevance of the comment.

I'm not wanting to fix something
Nor am I looking to apportion blame
or suggest things should have been
or even could have been different or
indeed that I want or
would like it to be different.

It is what it is.


----------



## tech/a (1 May 2015)

McLovin said:


> What was that you were saying about hindsight?
> 
> So many false equivalencies being tossed around in this thread. The drugs were being smuggled from Indonesia to Australia. There was no intention to sell or supply drugs in Indonesia by the criminal ring. The AFP had no operational reason to inform the Indonesians. If they felt it was good practise to let them know then it should have been referred to the AG and/or DFAT for approval. How the AFP would have reacted if someone was attempting to smuggle anthrax into Botswana is neither here nor there.




So lets get this right.
Shoe on the other foot

If drugs were being smuggled from AUST
(Take Corby for example---if they knew.)
to Indo and the Indonesians knew they
should not tell the AFP they should simply
arrest them at their end?

This is the craziest argument I've seen.
The AFP should have let known smuggling occur so they
would face a lighter penalty in the country they were bringing
the drugs too.

Beggars belief.


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2015)

McLovin said:


> How the AFP would have reacted if someone was attempting to smuggle anthrax into Botswana is neither here nor there.




If Botswana had close economical, political and security ties with Australia, I would have thought it would be a requirement of the AFP to pass on any information, regarding international criminal activity.

If Australia had no political or economical ties, or the country was hostile toward Australia, one would think that information wouldn't be exchanged.

However if you have a reciprocal agreement, as I'm sure we will have with Indonesia and other countries, you would be obliged to inform them. IMO

We recently arrested suspected terrorists, on information passed to the AFP, from England.


----------



## McLovin (1 May 2015)

tech/a said:


> If drugs were being smuggled from AUST
> (Take Corby for example---if they knew.)
> to Indo and the Indonesians knew they
> should not tell the AFP they should simply
> arrest them at their end?




Yes. Why not? The Indonesian authorities will act in their own self interest, as the AFP did in this instance. It just so happened that the interests of the AFP meant the execution of two Australians. Quid pro quo, I guess.



tech/a said:


> This is the craziest argument I've seen.
> The AFP should have let known smuggling occur so they
> would face a lighter penalty in the country they were bringing
> the drugs too.




Oh dear. The AFP did let smuggling occur. FFS, they wrote a letter to the Indonesians explaining the situation with the Bali 9 _before_ some of them had even left Australia. They could have stopped them at the airport and charged them with conspiracy to import drugs. 



> On April 8, the same day Rush flew out of Australia, the AFP sent a letter to the Indonesian National Police, headed "Subject: Heroin couriers from Bali to Australia."
> 
> The letter, since tendered in evidence, set out in great detail what the AFP knew about the looming heroin importation.
> 
> ...




So let's see, two Australians dead another six in gaol for life and one out in 10 years. Did the AFP make _any_ arrests in Australia in relation to this drug ring? Nope. Zero. Did the Indonesians arrest any locals in relation to this supply? Nope. Zero. What a whale of an operation. They should be proud.


----------



## tech/a (1 May 2015)

> So let's see, two Australians dead another six in gaol for life and one out in 10 years. Did the AFP make any arrests in Australia in relation to this drug ring? Nope. Zero. Did the Indonesians arrest any locals in relation to this supply? Nope. Zero. What a whale of an operation. They should be proud




AND

Where are the drugs now?
Destroyed?
Doubt it.


----------



## McLovin (1 May 2015)

tech/a said:


> AND
> 
> Where are the drugs now?
> Destroyed?
> Doubt it.




Well from the same article...



> Aside from the AFP's role, there are many unanswered questions about the Indonesian police's handling of their end of the Bali Nine investigation, including why they failed to identify the source of the narcotics in Indonesia, as requested by the AFP. A Thai prostitute whom Chan is said to have used as a contact has reportedly disappeared, while a major heroin trafficker suspected of supplying the drugs was shot dead in a police raid in Jakarta, according to press reports. *One theory - which remains unproven - is that corrupt Indonesian police may have had a hand in the deal.*




I'll bet my bottom dollar that someone in the Indo police had a hand in this. You'd only hope the AFP weren't so naive that they actually ended up forwarding intelligence that went to those same police. I have serious doubts.


----------



## tech/a (1 May 2015)

Mc Lovin

We will hold differing views on this.

Not only did these guys attempt to import 8.5 kg of Heroin 
but they also put other gullible kids in harms way.

They knew the risks.


----------



## tech/a (1 May 2015)

McLovin said:


> Well from the same article...
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bet my bottom dollar that someone in the Indo police had a hand in this. You'd only hope the AFP weren't so naive that they actually ended up forwarding intelligence that went to those same police. I have serious doubts.




That--we agree on.


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2015)

McLovin said:


> Oh dear. The AFP did let smuggling occur. FFS, they wrote a letter to the Indonesians explaining the situation with the Bali 9 _before_ some of them had even left Australia. They could have stopped them at the airport and charged them with conspiracy to import drugs..




Wasn't it you who recently posted, too many false equivalences are being made, then you write the above?

The AFP did not let smuggling occur, if they hadn't informed Indonesia, they would have. 
When the group left Australia, they had not comitted any crime, they were suspected of plotting to do so.

They could not have stopped them at the airport, and charged them, if they had no proof, only suspicions. 

Christ think of the outcry, if the AFP start arresting people at the airport, because they believe the subject is going overseas to commit a crime.
What is it 'innocent until proven guilty , unless it is in your best interest to be assumed guilty , before you commit a crime?


----------



## McLovin (1 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> When the group left Australia, they had not comitted any crime, they were suspected of plotting to do so.




Err, yes they have committed a crime. It's called conspiracy. The physical act doesn't need to have occurred. They also could have warned them off, as Rush's father requested. At the very least, don't tell the Indonesians what they're up to when they could face the death penalty.



sptrawler said:


> Christ think of the outcry, if the AFP start arresting people at the airport, because they believe the subject is going overseas to commit a crime.
> What is it 'innocent until proven guilty , unless it is in your best interest to be assumed guilty , before you commit a crime?




Being charged with a crime is not the same as being found guilty of a crime.

ETA: The CDPP has a whole section on it...





> Section 11.5(1) of the Criminal Code states that a person who conspires with another person to commit an offence punishable by imprisonment for more than 12 months, or by a fine of 200 pu or more, is guilty of the offence of conspiracy to commit that offence and is punishable as if the offence to which the conspiracy relates had been committed. This section sets out the requirements for a finding of guilt for conspiracy (s 11.5(2)), the defences and situations when a person cannot be found guilty of conspiracy (s 11.5(4), (5)), and what will not be allowed as a defence (s 11.5(3)).
> 
> A court may nevertheless dismiss the charge for reasons of justice (s 11.5(6)). Proceedings for an offence of conspiracy must not be commenced without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, a person may be arrested for, charged with, or remanded in custody or on bail in connection with, an offence of conspiracy before the necessary consent has been given (s 11.5(8)).


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2015)

McLovin said:


> Err, yes they have committed a crime. It's called conspiracy. The physical act doesn't need to have occurred. They also could have warned them off, as Rush's father requested. At the very least, don't tell the Indonesians what they're up to when they could face the death penalty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




To charge someone, evidence other than hearsay, is required. Also the ringleaders had already left Australia.

I guess the whole argument is over, capital punishment, not the actions and responsibilities of anyone.

It would appear, if they had been jailed for life, there wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 May 2015)

tech/a said:


> They knew the risks.



Yes and the consequence on the risk matrix if caught, is death. Also, our government protesting is dumb.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2015)

McLovin said:


> The physical act doesn't need to have occurred. They also could have warned them off, as Rush's father requested. ..




The old idea of policing and crime prevention had there day probably back in the seventies. The idea now is indignation driven catch them if you can and ping them (unless you are a Arab Muslim then you do a raid them in the calm hours and let them go so they know they are on the watch list). 

When I was a kid, being caught when you thought you were invisible & clever was a BIG deterrent and a life's lesson. Nowdays it's bah humbug baby boomers, who got off with plenty of mispent youth, who bay for blood while talking themselves up as paragons of society and virtue. We have to stitch everyone up these days instead of letting human error creep into our stifling over governed society .... Australia is not the societal Australia it once was in the recent past.


----------



## chiff (3 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> The old idea of policing and crime prevention had there day probably back in the seventies. The idea now is indignation driven catch them if you can and ping them (unless you are a Arab Muslim then you do a raid them in the calm hours and let them go so they know they are on the watch list).
> 
> When I was a kid, being caught when you thought you were invisible & clever was a BIG deterrent and a life's lesson. Nowdays it's bah humbug baby boomers, who got off with plenty of mispent youth, who bay for blood while talking themselves up as paragons of society and virtue. We have to stitch everyone up these days instead of letting human error creep into our stifling over governed society .... Australia is not the societal Australia it once was in the recent past.



I wonder what the attitude or judgement is on those that lost their lives in the Caboolture floodwaters.Apparently there were signs warning people not to enter floodwater-but they did.
Which of us has not taken a chance when we were warned otherwise,or the laws said otherwise?
How quick people are to rush to judgement.Or ,at the very least,selective in their judgement.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2015)

chiff said:


> Which of us has not taken a chance when we were warned otherwise,or the laws said otherwise?
> .




On this discussion board I would predict only you, me and one other.


----------



## gordon2007 (3 May 2015)

Ten years ago nobody gave a crap about these two people. In fact the media was quite happy they were caught and were going to be executed.

Quite amazing how people's perception changes in time and just how much their views are manipulated by the media.


----------



## Wysiwyg (3 May 2015)

gordon2007 said:


> Quite amazing how people's perception changes in time and just* how much their views are manipulated by the media*.



Bullseye. People would be shocked to know how much their thoughts are not their own.


----------

