# Death Penalty



## Happy (24 October 2005)

I am at least intrigued by how people react to death penalty topic.

Many are shocked how Australian Police could condemn to death recent Bali 9 syndicate, now looks more like 8, possibly less.
People are also shocked why Australian Government doesn’t move Heaven and Earth to secure release of Singapore case.

My argument is that people touching stuff that brings misery and death should be stopped.

Funny, the same people think that in extreme cases death penalty is justified, but as soon as specific cases are discussed, they see human beings only.


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## Profitseeker (24 October 2005)

*Re: Death penalty – not advice, do your own research*

There is a big sign at the bali airport that says if you import or export drugs you will be killed. You can balme the police or disscuss whether the death penalty is right or wrong. But in the case of the Bali nine, they are in their predicament because of their own stupidity.


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## Joe Blow (24 October 2005)

Disclaimer removed from thread title.   

Happy, none of us can violate securities law by talking about the death penalty.  :


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## Happy (24 October 2005)

Joe, that was severe Blow to my post, but if you are happy I am happy too.


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## Profitseeker (24 October 2005)

Perhaps I should actually add that I don't actually believe in the detah penalty though. I just believe that people should more aware of the consequence of their decisions.


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## mit (24 October 2005)

I believe that they are two very different incidents in the Bali 9 case the AFP knew before hand that they were going to smuggle heroin but did not stop the people in Australia and instead told the Indonesian authorities. This could be taken as possibly sentencing the Bali 9 to death instead of Australian Justice.

In the Singapore case there was no foreknowledge.


Although, it is very true that they all should have known that they personally faced the death penalty.

MIT


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## Smurf1976 (24 October 2005)

I am opposed to the death penalty for the simple reason that there is always the possibility, however remote, that someone has been falsely convicted. At least if they are sent to prison instead of killed they can be freed in the event that new evidence emerges which proves their innocence.


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## Profitseeker (24 October 2005)

I agree Smurf. Heard a stat that 1 in 5 people that got the death penalty in the states is not guilty. Could be an old stat though cause it was related to the electric chair.


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## kerosam (24 October 2005)

maybe australia could take up death penalty for drugs possessions... imagine how clean our streets would be.


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## Happy (25 October 2005)

We seem to be preoccupied with the idea that innocent life could be lost due to death penalty, and yet we have 500 innocent lives lost in traffic accidents (out of over 1000 lives lost every year on Australian roads statistically 50% are at fault, rest not).

And we manage to live with it, way of life, sort of bad luck.

Also we could exclude “reasonable doubt cases”, “cases with circumstantial evidence” and maybe few more.


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## Milk Man (25 October 2005)

Happy said:
			
		

> We seem to be preoccupied with the idea that innocent life could be lost due to death penalty, and yet we have 500 innocent lives lost in traffic accidents (out of over 1000 lives lost every year on Australian roads statistically 50% are at fault, rest not).
> 
> And we manage to live with it, way of life, sort of bad luck.
> 
> Also we could exclude “reasonable doubt cases”, “cases with circumstantial evidence” and maybe few more.




Pretty sure more die from staf infections. Its almost completely preventable by doctors and nurses using alcohol handwash between patients and better cleaning procedures. Kill our hospital management before bad drivers. Oh wait you cant use revenue raising tactics on them like speed cameras; carry on killin' boys.


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## Smurf1976 (25 October 2005)

Happy said:
			
		

> We seem to be preoccupied with the idea that innocent life could be lost due to death penalty, and yet we have 500 innocent lives lost in traffic accidents (out of over 1000 lives lost every year on Australian roads statistically 50% are at fault, rest not).
> 
> And we manage to live with it, way of life, sort of bad luck.
> 
> Also we could exclude “reasonable doubt cases”, “cases with circumstantial evidence” and maybe few more.



Agreed about traffic accidents. But why unnecessarily take an innocent life via the death penalty when there is an alternative punishment (prison) available?


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## Mofra (25 October 2005)

Given we have a system that is (supposedly anyways) based on rehabilitation and not retribution, the death penalty would in essence cause a major rethink of the principles of justice in this country.

If you take cases like Martin Bryant (who had an IQ of 66) we have people commiting crimes who don't understand consequences, so increasing the penalties for violent crimes would not act as a deterrant.


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## Julia (25 October 2005)

Mofra said:
			
		

> Given we have a system that is (supposedly anyways) based on rehabilitation and not retribution, the death penalty would in essence cause a major rethink of the principles of justice in this country.
> 
> If you take cases like Martin Bryant (who had an IQ of 66) we have people commiting crimes who don't understand consequences, so increasing the penalties for violent crimes would not act as a deterrant.




Absolutely agree, Mofra.  Our jails contain a great percentage of people with a mental illness or who simply are not adequately equipped to cope with normal everyday life, whether that is as a result of their genes, poor parenting/modelling, or often something as simple as poverty.  They go to jail often because of unpaid fines.  Obviously, these people are not going to be candidates for the death penalty, but all these punishments are simply gradations along a continuum.

I see quite a number of newly released prisoners and about 10% of these people say they received genuine help and rehabilitation within the justice system.  The rest have endured the gamut of abuse and violence, usually starting with rape on entry, and a number have said they would rather be dead than be brutalised in this way again.  So perhaps imprisonment is not necessarily a more attractive option as far as offenders are concerned.

I also hear the stories of victims in the crimes these prisoners have committed and their lives will never be the same either.

I have no answers.

Julia


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## bvbfan (25 October 2005)

I like the 3 strikes and your out policy but go a bit further than jail.
Like the Saudi action of chopping of hands, if they don't have them then its going to be much much harder for these criminals to keep committing these crimes.
Crimes like robbery, theft, assault etc


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## Happy (26 October 2005)

I find it hard to believe that with modern surveillance devices we are unable to track illegal activities inside punitive/rehabilitation centres.

That we are unable to identify gangs, perpetrators, offenders, isolate them and extend their 'rehabilitation'.

We are talking about limited area with limited access to different places at certain times, so where is the problem?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (26 October 2005)

Happy said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe that with modern surveillance devices we are unable to track illegal activities inside punitive/rehabilitation centres.
> 
> That we are unable to identify gangs, perpetrators, offenders, isolate them and extend their 'rehabilitation'.
> 
> We are talking about limited area with limited access to different places at certain times, so where is the problem?




We are too soft, that's the problem. If they are 100% found guilty, no question of innocence whatsoever, sure get rid of them. Prisons don't work, don't rehabilitate and only add to the burden of government. Criminals do bad things but are always given their rights at the expense of their victims. Shame on society for letting it get this bad.

I bet I get roasted for this comment.


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## Happy (26 October 2005)

A lot of people make crime their career; supported by unemployment benefit they seem to be happy with that.

Lack of opportunity excuse doesn’t really go well with me in a country as Australia.
Many kids just fall into too easy trap, of not having to do anything if they can, and they do it.

Many run away from home, make up a story or two to get special benefit and often furnished flat.

From one thing to another, from unchecked animal cruelty to violence against other humans, from stealing to armed robbery to murder rape to name the few more scary.

Snake, I don’t think that these days you’ll get roasted as much as you would few years or decades ago, when we all were do-gooders.

Now patience is running thin and cases as violent rape-murder get the nod from I could suspect probably not a minority any more.
Time will come that pressure will increase and we will be asked in referendum to re-introduce the death penalty for some cases.

In a meantime, ‘out-sourcing death penalty’ is a crafty move in my opinion anyway.


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## Smurf1976 (26 October 2005)

I certainly think that we need to do a lot more to look after the victims of crime.

Vandalism is a classic case where this applies. It might only seem like a broken letterbox or wrecked car but when it gets to the point of not one but 10 or more sleepless nights in a row due to the need to be "on patrol" of your own property then that is going way too far. What happens to the unfortunate victim who loses their job as a result, falls asleep at the wheel and kills someone etc?

The VICTIM gets punished in this case. Something needs to be done and I think it starts with no more "slap on the wrist" for criminals. You break it, you automatically PAY for it in full. And a good portion of police to be allocated to catching these  :swear:.


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## amohonour (26 October 2005)

Question ever been accused of something you didnt do and no-one believes you? I have. That in itself is enough reason to not have a death penalty, imho.


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## happytrader (27 October 2005)

I'm sure most people would never allow other people to inflict harsh or violent discipline on their children if they had even a whiff of the possibility.

As regards the Bali nine and the Australian Federal Police prior knowledge and their involvement in tipping off the the Indonesian Police. 

Since when did the AFP start thinking it was 'okay' to let the Indonesians administer their type of discipline to our citizens in the form of likely firing squad???

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Happy (30 October 2005)

This relates to former head of state of another country.

Poll was conducted on Sunday Program in Australia, and results published today were:

55% said yes to death sentence and 45% said no.

Could it be an indication that we are getting ready to change of heart?
(Disclaimer: I did not vote)


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## amohonour (30 October 2005)

Dont think our justice systems are good enough to get it right... too much corruption imho


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## Buster (2 November 2005)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> We are too soft, that's the problem. If they are 100% found guilty, no question of innocence whatsoever, sure get rid of them. Prisons don't work, don't rehabilitate and only add to the burden of government. Criminals do bad things but are always given their rights at the expense of their victims. Shame on society for letting it get this bad.
> 
> I bet I get roasted for this comment.




I, for one, totally agree with you Snake..  I've spent more time than the average punter in many 'third world' countries, and generally feel safer walking around them than some of our cities..  I think we could learn from the cultures that many bleeding hearts consider harsh/brutal/barbaric..  As far as I'm concerned, if you commit a crime against society, you've surrendered your 'rights'.. 

Anyone going overseas that plans to smuggle drugs deserves exactly what they get, it certainly hasn't been a secret that the death penalty exists in many many countries if you are caught with drugs.. I certainly don't expect our government to plead with other countries to release 'aussie' criminals.  Nail 'em all up, should be more of it I reckon..

Then again, perhaps 25 years in the Navy has seen my view drift from that of mainstream society..


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## dudleysharp (5 October 2008)

Profitseeker said:


> I agree Smurf. Heard a stat that 1 in 5 people that got the death penalty in the states is not guilty.




Totally false, no matter the time frame.

Today, maybe 1 in 320 are actually innocent and all those so identified have been released.

Consider this:

The Death Penalty Provides More Protection for Innocents
Dudley Sharp, Justice Matters, contact info below
*
Often, the death penalty dialogue gravitates to the subject of innocents at risk of execution. Seldom is a more common problem reviewed. That is, how innocents are more at risk without the death penalty.
*
To state the blatantly clear, living murderers, in prison, after release or escape,  are much more likely to harm and murder, again, than are executed murderers.
*
Although an obvious truism, it is surprising how often* folks overlook the enhanced incapacitation benefits of the death penalty over incarceration.
*
No knowledgeable and honest party questions that the death penalty has the most extensive due process protections in US criminal law. 
*
Therefore, actual innocents are more likely to be sentenced to life imprisonment and more likely to die in prison serving under that sentence, that it is that an actual innocent will be executed.
*
That is. logically, conclusive.
*
16 recent studies, inclusive of their defenses, find for death penalty deterrence.
*
A surprise? No. 
*
Life is preferred over death. Death is feared more than life.
*
Some believe that all studies with contrary findings negate those 16 studies. They don't. Studies which don't find for deterrence don't say no one is deterred, but that they couldn't measure those deterred.
*
What prospect of a negative outcome doesn't deter some? There isn't one . . . although committed anti death penalty folk may say the death penalty is the only one.
*
However, the premier anti death penalty scholar accepts it as a given that the death penalty is a deterrent, but does not believe it to be a greater deterrent than a life sentence. Yet, the evidence is compelling and un refuted that death is feared more than life.
*
Some death penalty opponents argue against death penalty deterrence, stating that it's a harsher penalty to be locked up without any possibility of getting out.
*
Reality paints a very different picture.
*
What percentage of capital murderers seek a plea bargain to a death sentence? Zero or close to it. They prefer long term imprisonment.
*
What percentage of convicted capital murderers argue for execution in the penalty phase of their capital trial? Zero or close to it. They prefer long term imprisonment.
*
What percentage of death row inmates waive their appeals and speed up the execution process? Nearly zero. They prefer long term imprisonment.
*
This is not, even remotely, in dispute.
*
Life is preferred over death. Death is feared more than life.
*
Furthermore, history tells us that lifers have many ways to get out: Pardon, commutation, escape, clerical error, change in the law, etc.
*
In choosing to end the death penalty, or in choosing not implement it, some have chosen to spare murderers at the cost of sacrificing more innocent lives.
*
Furthermore, possibly we have sentenced 25 actually innocent people to death since 1973, or 0.3% of those so sentenced. Those have all been released upon post conviction review. The anti death penalty claims, that the numbers are significantly higher, are a fraud, easily discoverable by fact checking.
*
6 inmates have been released from death row because of DNA evidence. An additional 9 were released from prison, because of DNA exclusion, who had previously been sentenced to death.
*
The innocents deception of death penalty opponents has been getting exposure for many years. Even the behemoth of anti death penalty newspapers, The New York Times,* has recognized that deception.
*
To be sure, 30 or 40 categorically innocent people have been released from death row . . . (1) This when death penalty opponents were claiming the release of 119 "innocents" from death row. Death penalty opponents never required actual innocence in order for cases to be added to their "exonerated" or "innocents" list. They simply invented their own definitions for exonerated and innocent and deceptively shoe horned large numbers of inmates into those definitions - something easily discovered with fact checking.
*
There is no proof of an innocent executed in the US, at least since 1900. 
*
If we accept that the best predictor of future performance is past performance, we can reasonable conclude that the DNA cases will be excluded prior to trial, and that for the next 8000 death sentences, that we will experience a 99.8% accuracy rate in actual guilt convictions. This improved accuracy rate does not include the many additional safeguards that have been added to the system, over and above DNA testing.
*
Of all the government programs in the world, that put innocents at risk, is there one with a safer record and with greater protections than the US death penalty?
*
Unlikely.
*
Full report -All Innocence Issues: The Death Penalty, upon request.
*
Full report - The Death Penalty as a Deterrent, upon request
*
(1) The Death of Innocents: A Reasonable Doubt,
New York Times Book Review, p 29, 1/23/05, Adam Liptak,
national legal correspondent for The NY Times

copyright 2007-2008, Dudley Sharp
Permission for distribution of this document, in whole or in part,* is approved with proper attribution.
*
Dudley Sharp, Justice Matters
e-mail sharpjfa@aol.com 713-622-5491,
Houston, Texas
*
Mr. Sharp has appeared on ABC, BBC, CBS, CNN, C-SPAN, FOX, NBC, NPR, PBS, VOA and many other TV and radio networks, on such programs as Nightline, The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, The O'Reilly Factor, etc., has been quoted in newspapers throughout the world and is a published author.
*
A*former opponent of capital punishment, he has written and granted interviews about, testified on and debated the subject of the death penalty, extensively and internationally.
*
Pro death penalty sites* 

*www.homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Dudley Sharp - Justice Matters.aspx

*www.dpinfo.com
www.cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPinformation.htm
www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/links/dplinks.htm
www.coastda.com/
www.lexingtonprosecutor.com/death_penalty_debate.htm
www.prodeathpenalty.com
www.yesdeathpenalty.googlepages.com/home2** (Sweden)
www.wesleylowe.com/cp.htm


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## white_crane (6 October 2008)

dudleysharp said:


> To state the blatantly clear, living murderers, in prison, after release or escape,  are much more likely to harm and murder, again, than are executed murderers.




Really?  I wouldn't have guessed.


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## auric (6 October 2008)

death penalty has a place in society, but the question is what if you get it wrong ,the only way round it would be a point system 

ie 2 seperate murders or 2 seperate rapes you are gone no appeal.

we have got soft on crime and it looks like the public are agreeing....


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## orr (16 February 2015)

Indonesia has its law;

In Indonesian jurisdiction you get the consequences of your actions under Indonesian law;

I was always entertained by the consequences for Tommy Suharto after he was convicted (under Indonesian Law) of murdering a Judge, an Indoneasian Judge, by blowing him up in a car park. Of corse it was the 'olde days' circa 2002.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jul/27/indonesia.johnaglionby

He did 4 years. 4 years on  Nusakambangan Island prison.

Such are the ambiguities of the death penalty...

in the AFP we trust. And if you wanted to grease your way up; under Howard?..... connect your own dots.


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## Bintang (16 February 2015)

orr said:


> Indonesia has its law;
> 
> In Indonesian jurisdiction you get the consequences of your actions under Indonesian law;
> 
> ...




In Indonesia it has nothing to do with ambiguity of the death penalty but everything to do with how much money is available to pay the judges.

The Bali nine members who got the death penalty would have got a lesser sentence if they or someone on their behalf had met the financial demands of the judges. That’s just how things work in Indonesia.   In the judicial system nothing much has changed since 2002. Money still trumps everything.


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## Macquack (16 February 2015)

I do not agree with the "death penalty", but what ever happened to "hard labour".

Criminals should be putting something back into society instead of sitting on their arses.


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## Bintang (16 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> I do not agree with the "death penalty", but what ever happened to "hard labour".
> 
> Criminals should be putting something back into society instead of sitting on their arses.




Nationally, we had 'Hard labour' aplenty under Rudd & Gillard. Queensland is about to get a hefty dose at the state level

And politicians on both sides should be putting something back into society instead of feathering the comfortable nests in which they bury their arses.

I also don't agree with the death penalty but somehow it has been imposed on our system of government.


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## Muschu (17 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> In Indonesia it has nothing to do with ambiguity of the death penalty but everything to do with how much money is available to pay the judges.
> 
> The Bali nine members who got the death penalty would have got a lesser sentence if they or someone on their behalf had met the financial demands of the judges. That’s just how things work in Indonesia.   In the judicial system nothing much has changed since 2002. Money still trumps everything.




This is perfectly correct.
As briefly as I can:
 I have been a regular visitor to Bali, the outlying islands and the length of Java since 1983.  However my knowledge pales in comparison to a friend who has lived in Bali for 35 years, married to an Indonesian and with 2 adult children.  This friend is a very successful businessman, astute and grounded.  Also happens to very intelligent if a Ph.D. is any indication.
Eight years ago I asked this friend what would happen if one of his adult kids was caught with drugs. The answer was immediate.  “The police would visit my house and advise that this is an embarrassing situation for the Government and for family.  But they would then advise that a given number of $US would remove the embarrassment”.
I then asked what would happen if the situation got past that point and to the courts.  Again the answer was immediate: “Then the judges would visit me and raise the same embarrassment issue. But the cost would be higher.”
Another inconsistency is the availability of  "magic mushrooms”.  This is a mind-altering drug of high order.  It was readily available in Bali in 1983 and still is.  You can take a boat to some outer islands off Lombok and find a line of tiny restaurants along the shore with their “blackboard magic mushroom special of the day.”  
It isn’t as simplistic as many consider.


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## Hodgie (17 February 2015)

Muschu said:


> This is perfectly correct.
> Another inconsistency is the availability of  "magic mushrooms”.  This is a mind-altering drug of high order.  It was readily available in Bali in 1983 and still is.  You can take a boat to some outer islands off Lombok and find a line of tiny restaurants along the shore with their “blackboard magic mushroom special of the day.”
> It isn’t as simplistic as many consider.




So true, they seem to completely ignore the shrooms and even allow them to sell their 'illegal drugs' out of establishments and consume them out in the open while on the other hand they can put you in prison for having some (even very small amounts) marijuana. 

The police often have people selling drugs for them so that they can immediately arrest you, the beaches are notorious for this.

I remember when I went out drinking in Bali I would always have 2 separate compartments in my wallet, a smaller amount in case I had to bribe any policemen and the bulk of my cash in a hidden part of the wallet. I never had to actually bribe anyone but my mates have in the past, it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## Hodgie (17 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> I do not agree with the "death penalty"




This is often said by many people especially in light of what is occurring with the members of the Bali 9 currently. upon digging further, more often than not it is found that most people don't completely disagree with the death penalty. They only disagree with when it should be used.

After the Bali bombings, polls showed that the greater percentage of Australians agreed with the terrorists being executed. John Howard himself even publicly agreed with it.

I wonder what the results would be of a poll if exactly the same people were asked today if they agree with the death penalty given what is happening in Indonesia right now.


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## Tisme (17 February 2015)

Hodgie said:


> After the Bali bombings, polls showed that the greater percentage of Australians agreed with the terrorists being executed. John Howard himself even publicly agreed with it.
> 
> .




Was it Scottie Rush who asked Howard to shut his mouth?


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## Hodgie (17 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> Was it Scottie Rush who asked Howard to shut his mouth?




Perhaps, I just think it's significant enough that the leader of our country would support the death penalty as did a large portion of our population regarding that incident. It puts more perspective to people saying that they don't support the death penalty when quite often what they actually mean is I don't support the death penalty for the Bali 9 members. There are crimes so abhorrent that have been carried out that there are not many people who will oppose the death penalty being used as punishment for them.

I recall being at a work function when Saddam Hussein was executed for his crimes, there was loud cheering. No one was upset about the death penalty being carried out.


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## SirRumpole (17 February 2015)

Hodgie said:


> Perhaps, I just think it's significant enough that the leader of our country would support the death penalty as did a large portion of our population regarding that incident. It puts more perspective to people saying that they don't support the death penalty when quite often what they actually mean is I don't support the death penalty for the Bali 9 members. There are crimes so abhorrent that have been carried out that there are not many people who will oppose the death penalty being used as punishment for them.
> 
> I recall being at a work function when Saddam Hussein was executed for his crimes, there was loud cheering. No one was upset about the death penalty being carried out.




Indeed. Drug smuggling, abhorrent as it is, does not involve a deliberate intention to kill.

Indonesia released one of the Bali bombing masterminds after less than 10 years, a person who would have been pleased to see as many people as possible die.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2717999/Bali-bomber-Muhammad-Cholili-released-TEN-years.html

Interesting how many people on Indonesia's execution list are foreign nationals. Looks like a case of xenophobia to me.


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## Bintang (17 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> …… attacking a whole group of people because of a few is irrational.



*


SirRumpole said:


> Interesting how many people on Indonesia's execution list are foreign nationals. Looks like a case of xenophobia to me.



*
Looks to me you are attacking a whole group of people because of a few.


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## SirRumpole (17 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> *
> 
> *
> Looks to me you are attacking a whole group of people because of a few.




No , I'm attacking the attitude of one, the President.


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## Bintang (17 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> No , I'm attacking the attitude of one, the President.




So you are saying that the current President is responsible for all the foreigners who are currently  on death row due to his personal xenophobia. That's quite an achievement for the President given the short time that he has been in office.


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## SirRumpole (17 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> So you are saying that the current President is responsible for all the foreigners who are currently  on death row due to his personal xenophobia. That's quite an achievement for the President given the short time that he has been in office.




SBY stopped executing people and Widodo started again as soon as he got in. It's hard to believe that everyone who smuggles drugs in Indonesia is a foreign national, but they make up most of the people being executed. Work it out for yourself.


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## Bintang (18 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> SBY stopped executing people and Widodo started again as soon as he got in. It's hard to believe that everyone who smuggles drugs in Indonesia is a foreign national, but they make up most of the people being executed. Work it out for yourself.




Widodo didn't hand out the sentences. The judges did that.



SirRumpole said:


> …. [foreigners]  …. make up most of the people being executed.




How do you know this?

Widodo is simply upholding the law and your accusation that he is xenophobic is not credible.


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## Bintang (18 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> …..[foreign nationals] make up most of the people being executed. Work it out for yourself.




OK I’ve worked it out for myself:
Table showing the number of executions in Indonesia since 2001:
View attachment 61605

Data Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Indonesia

*Rumpole do you agree that the number 17 (indonesians) is greater than the number 11 (foreigners)?*



SirRumpole said:


> SBY stopped executing people and Widodo started again as soon as he got in …… Work it out for yourself.




Source: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/01/23/commentary-capital-punishment-and-public-opinion.html
_ "[President Joko Widodo’s] predecessor Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono waited at least a few years, although he too used capital punishment to shore up his public support. It was no coincidence that he ordered the executions of 10 people in 2008 and four in 2013 — both times one year before a general election." _

_"Public opinion in Indonesia is still overwhelmingly in favour of retaining capital punishment, certainly for the most heinous crimes, including drug trafficking, which is rampant in this country and has such deadly effects." _
Source: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/01/23/commentary-capital-punishment-and-public-opinion.html

* Rumpole, is it still just the President you wish to complain about and direct your accusation of xenophobia?*


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## SirRumpole (18 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> OK I’ve worked it out for myself:
> Table showing the number of executions in Indonesia since 2001:
> View attachment 61605
> 
> ...




The President has the power to stop executions, and the fact that he hasn't done so in the case of Chan and Sukomayran despite their prison governor saying that they are reformed and that they have helped others to give up drug smuggling leaves room for criticism of his motives. 

You can make up your own mind about why he is so keen to shoot people, and I can make up mine.


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## Tisme (18 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> _"Public opinion in Indonesia is still overwhelmingly in favour of retaining capital punishment, certainly for the most heinous crimes, including drug trafficking, which is rampant in this country and has such deadly effects." _




Not sure why the state bothers with murdering people when it doesn't seem to stop the "rampant" lawlessness. Hunger, greed, adventure, etc are rarely extinguished by extreme threats. 

Of course the myth(?) that circulates about Bali are that the drugs are freely available on every corner, the cops turn a blind eye and justice can be bought. In this instance the AFP got involved knowing they were sending Australians to the gallows.


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## Hodgie (18 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The President has the power to stop executions, and the fact that he hasn't done so in the case of Chan and Sukomayran despite their prison governor saying that they are reformed and that they have helped others to give up drug smuggling leaves room for criticism of his motives.
> 
> You can make up your own mind about why he is so keen to shoot people, and I can make up mine.




To me it just looks like typical politicians. They usually just do whatever will get them re-elected. If Indonesians overwhelmingly did not want capital punishment to be carried out than I think that the president would heavily reconsider his position.

It's a silly law really that the president would even be the one to sign off on capital punishment being carried out, if I was the president I would rather not have that responsibility because you are going to be scrutinised very harshly by certain groups no matter which decision you made.

People may call him a Xenophobe or that he is inhumane for rejecting clemency for these foreigners while his own people may think that he does not take drugs seriously enough and that he doesn't care what they are doing to the country and it's people if he grants clemency. 

It's a very tough position to be in really, their whole legal system needs to be looked at rather than just placing blame on one man who is currently president imo. The problem is there really is no fairness or justice over there, its rife with corruption.


----------



## Bintang (18 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The President has the power to stop executions, and the fact that he hasn't done so in the case of Chan and Sukomayran despite their prison governor saying that they are reformed and that they have helped others to give up drug smuggling leaves room for criticism of his motives.
> 
> You can make up your own mind about why he is so keen to shoot people, and I can make up mine.




That's a very convenient cop-out for when facts contradict a bigoted point of view. You levelled a charge of xenophobia when it turns out that more indonesians than foreigners have been executed during the last 15 years.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> That's a very convenient cop-out for when facts contradict a bigoted point of view. You levelled a charge of xenophobia when it turns out that more indonesians than foreigners have been executed during the last 15 years.




I said I was referring to the current President, not what has happened before or what the Indonesian population in general thinks. I thought I made that clear.


----------



## Bintang (18 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I said I was referring to the current President, not what has happened before or what the Indonesian population in general thinks. I thought I made that clear.




Well you also referred to the previous president and got the facts wrong about him as well but no matter.
And thanks for clarifying that you were not being irrational by accusing a whole group of people (Indonesians) of being xenophobic when it is only the current president of Indonesia whom you are accusing of being xenophobic.


----------



## Macquack (18 February 2015)

SirRumpole is on the money as usual.

It is bleeding obvious that only a few Indonesian murderers are subject to the death penalty in Indonesia. BUT, if you are a foreigner trafficking drugs, then you are in deeper than a first degree murderer and don't count on any leniency.


----------



## Bintang (18 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> SirRumpole is on the money as usual.
> 
> It is bleeding obvious that not all Indonesian murderers are subject to the death penalty in Indonesia. BUT, if you are a foreigner trafficking drugs, then you are in deeper than a first degree murderer and don't count on any leniency.




No Rumpole was not on the money he was on the xenophobia.
The Indonesian murderers who get the death penalty are those who don't have enough money to buy their way out of it. The same applies to foreigners except that the price is much higher.
It's got nothing to do with xenophobia but everything to do with money and corruption.


----------



## Macquack (18 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> No Rumpole was not on the money he was on the *xenophobia*.
> The Indonesian murderers who get the death penalty are those who don't have enough money to buy their way out of it. The *same applies to foreigners except that the price is much higher*.
> It's got nothing to do with xenophobia but everything to do with money and corruption.




Do you know what "xenophobia" is?


----------



## Bintang (18 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> Do you know what "xenophobia" is?




Of course I do. 
And you are trying to imply that because the price for foreigners is higher that this is xenophobia.
But you are wrong again.
This is not xenophobia but rather an act of 'soaking the rich'
It is just the application of a core principal of socialism which should have great appeal for you Macquack.


----------



## Macquack (18 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> Of course I do.
> And you are trying to imply that because the price for foreigners is higher that this is xenophobia..




Yes. Not all foreigners are wealthy, otherwise Chan and Sukumaran would not be on death row (according to you).

Prejudging all foreigners as wealthy and setting an unrealistic price tag = xenophobia.


----------



## Bintang (18 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> Yes. Not all foreigners are wealthy, otherwise Chan and Sukumaran would not be on death row (according to you).
> 
> Prejudging all foreigners as wealthy and setting an unrealistic price tag = xenophobia.




On the contrary:
Prejudging all foreigners as wealthy and setting an unrealistic price tag = *naivety*

If you want to continue calling it xenophobia that's your prerogative but on the practical side just bear in mind that Indonesians never yield to that kind of language. 
Criticising them in any way only makes them harder and in money terms it just means the price will keep going up.

PS: I believe Michelle Corby would have got out of her ordeal early on in the saga if it had not been for the 'mobilisation of Australian public opinion'. A quiet deal done behind the scenes out of the public spotlight and without causing disrespect to Indonesia and its officials would have done the trick


----------



## Macquack (18 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> On the contrary:
> PS: I believe Michelle Corby would have got out of her ordeal early on in the saga if it had not been for the 'mobilisation of Australian public opinion'. A quiet deal done behind the scenes out of the public spotlight and without causing disrespect to Indonesia and its officials would have done the trick




I agree. 

Don't start me on that scumbag opportunist "Crazy Ron" Bakir.


----------



## Bintang (18 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> I agree.
> 
> Don't start me on that scumbag opportunist "Mad Ron" Bakir.




Indeed, this is not the thread for that topic.
(And I meant Schapelle Corby not Michelle Corby)


----------



## Bintang (19 February 2015)

*Jakarta hits back at Abbott aid 'threats'*
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...e-transfer-delay/story-fn3dxix6-1227223433527

_"INDONESIA says it won't respond to Prime Minister Tony Abbott's "threats" which appeared to link Australian aid to the fate of the Bali Nine ringleaders facing execution."_

I think Tony Abbott has already sealed the fate of the Bali 9 duo by his recent ‘intervention’.
He is probably just playing to the domestic audience because I’m sure that the experts in Dep Foreign Affairs also understand full well that:



Bintang said:


> Indonesians never yield to that kind of language.
> *Criticising them in any way only makes them harder* …...


----------



## bellenuit (19 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> *Jakarta hits back at Abbott aid 'threats'*
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...e-transfer-delay/story-fn3dxix6-1227223433527
> 
> _"INDONESIA says it won't respond to Prime Minister Tony Abbott's "threats" which appeared to link Australian aid to the fate of the Bali Nine ringleaders facing execution."_
> ...




I fail to see what *threat* Abbott made. He said:

_"We will be letting Indonesia know in absolutely unambiguous terms that we feel grievously let down,"

"Let's not forget that a few years ago, when Indonesia was struck by the Indian Ocean tsunami, Australia sent a billion dollars worth of assistance, we sent a significant contingent of our armed forces to help in Indonesia with humanitarian relief, and Australians lost their lives in that campaign to help Indonesia.

"I would say to the Indonesian people and the government, we in Australia are always there to help you and we hope that you might reciprocate in this way at this time."_

He did not link our aid to Indonesia to the fate of the 2 awaiting execution. He simply reminded them of the large contributions we have made to Indonesia and ended by saying: _"we in Australia are always there to help you"_

IMO this is Indonesia looking for an excuse to somehow blame Australia for the action Indonesia is about to take and is proof that no matter what we do to help them, they will always be looking for a way to take offence. We had the same scenario with the boats. Indonesia were infringing on our sovereignty, but somehow they blamed Australia for doing no more than protecting our borders.


----------



## Bintang (19 February 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I fail to see what *threat* Abbott made.
> 
> IMO this is Indonesia looking for an excuse to somehow blame Australia for the action Indonesia is about to take and is proof that no matter what we do to help them, they will always be looking for a way to take offence. We had the same scenario with the boats. Indonesia were infringing on our sovereignty, but somehow they blamed Australia for doing no more than protecting our borders.




Yes, they are easily offended. Could be something to do with Islam being their dominant cultural influence.

Only by keeping his mouth shut, could Abbott have avoided offending them or avoided being perceived to be making “threats”.


----------



## Julia (19 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> I think Tony Abbott has already sealed the fate of the Bali 9 duo by his recent ‘intervention’.



Bintang, it was already sealed.  The delay has been either simply tokenism, ie to offer some appeasement in response to all the pleadings from Australia which are now taking on the level of being ludicrous, or (as offered by a reporter in Indonesia a couple of days ago) because there is a lack of single cells at present at the prison on the island where they will be executed.



> He is probably just playing to the domestic audience because I’m sure that the experts in Dep Foreign Affairs also understand full well that:



Yes, if we remember his initial reaction many weeks ago Mr Abbott virtually shrugged his shoulders about these two, saying the relationship with Indonesia was too important to be damaged (paraphrasing).
Since then there has been so much outcry, petitions vigils etc, you'd think JC himself was about to be re-crucified, so Mr Abbott, anxious to be seen to be responsive to the public mood after his big fright, has ramped up his rhetoric.

I suppose similarly the Indonesian president is also ensuring that he satisfies his domestic audience and could not back down even if he wanted to.

Agree with bellenuit, though, that Mr Abbott did not make any threat.  Of course it would be thus interpreted by the Left media.   However the reference to aid might have been better left unsaid because it does sound rather patronising.


----------



## Ves (19 February 2015)

Here's another side of the story from the Jakarta Post:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/02/18/technical-glitch-mental-illness-delay-executions.html

Interesting comparison between the way the media works over here and how the story is being written in Indonesia.


----------



## trainspotter (19 February 2015)

Errmmm .... Widodo got into power due to his hardline stance on drugs so any chance of clemency is horse feathers. Abbott's hysterical arm waving gesture is a bit rich as it was the previous Liberal Guvmint that alerted the Indonesian Police to the drug smugglers. Ruddock was the minister in charge at the time. Interesting that Tony has sacked Ruddock as the political fallout over this one could get messy !! 



> Former attorney-general Philip Ruddock thinks federal police were justified in tipping off Indonesia about Australian drug smugglers now facing execution.
> 
> But Mr Ruddock says Indonesia should not go ahead with executing Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran.
> 
> ...




http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/02/16/ruddock-defends-afp-bali-nine-co-operation


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2015)

> I suppose similarly the Indonesian president is also ensuring that he satisfies his domestic audience and could not back down even if he wanted to.




I wonder if the President's actions not to grant clemency has anything to do with our "stop the boat" policy and our actions in returning asylum seekers to Indonesia.

Tit for tat ?


----------



## DB008 (19 February 2015)

*Bali Nine: Indonesia has death penalty double standard, says brother of spared maid*

*‘Indonesia is begging for its citizens to escape the death penalty, meanwhile Indonesia’s firing squad executes inmates, it’s not fair,’ says brother of domestic worker saved from death penalty in Saudi Arabia*​



> The family of an Indonesian domestic worker on death row in Saudi Arabia has criticised the perceived hypocrisy of the Indonesian government, which has paid “blood money” to save her but which refuses to countenance stopping the execution of two Australians in Bali.
> 
> In the case of Satinah Binti Jumadi Ahmad, 41 – an Indonesian domestic worker sentenced to death by beheading for robbing and murdering her employer’s wife – the Indonesian government has been lobbying hard for her life to be spared.
> 
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/bali-nine-indonesia-has-death-penalty-double-standard-says-brother-of-spared-maid​


----------



## IFocus (19 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> *Jakarta hits back at Abbott aid 'threats'*
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...e-transfer-delay/story-fn3dxix6-1227223433527
> 
> _"INDONESIA says it won't respond to Prime Minister Tony Abbott's "threats" which appeared to link Australian aid to the fate of the Bali Nine ringleaders facing execution."_
> ...




Agree 100% just made a post on another thread similar

The Bali 2 will be now executed.


----------



## IFocus (19 February 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Errmmm .... Widodo got into power due to his hardline stance on drugs so any chance of clemency is horse feathers. Abbott's hysterical arm waving gesture is a bit rich as it was the previous Liberal Guvmint that alerted the Indonesian Police to the drug smugglers. Ruddock was the minister in charge at the time. Interesting that Tony has sacked Ruddock as the political fallout over this one could get messy !!
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/02/16/ruddock-defends-afp-bali-nine-co-operation




Ruddock wasn't responsible I think he was Attorney-Genera it was the Minister for Justice that the AFP reported to I am sure Kelty handed them over for some sort of deal if not he is a dog.


----------



## IFocus (19 February 2015)

Julia said:


> Of course it would be thus interpreted by the Left media.




Who? I have only seen quotes from the Indonesians and I am sure they would be sensitive and regard it as a threat advice I am sure Abbott would have got if indeed he asked.

The Indonesians do business behind closed doors and smiling for the cameras.


----------



## trainspotter (20 February 2015)

IFocus said:


> Ruddock wasn't responsible I think he was Attorney-Genera it was the Minister for Justice that the AFP reported to I am sure Kelty handed them over for some sort of deal if not he is a dog.




Polly want a cracker ....



> The AFP has always defended its actions as inter-country police co-operation. In 2006, Justice Paul Finn ruled its actions lawful, but urged a review of policies that could expose Australians to the death penalty. The procedures were tightened in 2009.
> 
> As attorney general, Ruddock formally withdrew Australia’s co-operation after the Bali Nine were charged because the offences carried the death penalty, but at that point Indonesia said it no longer needed Australia’s help to prosecute.
> 
> “Where it is clear that the death penalty might be sought – that is, where you are seeking to extradite somebody – you would seek an assurance that they would not apply to use the death penalty before you deliver them up,” Ruddock told Guardian Australia. “But that has never been the case in relation to the sharing of information with police abroad.”




http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-death-penalty-opposition-says-philip-ruddock

*BANG* ..... It was Mick KEELTY. Ruddock would have known all about it.


----------



## Macquack (24 February 2015)

"*Fighter jets in place for possible protective support mission for Bali Nine duo’s transfer to death island*"



> Bali’s Chief Prosecutor Momock Bambang Samiarso said it was confirmed that military aircraft would be used in the transfer but it was yet to be decided if it would be a Hercules or the CN transport plane which is currently parked at Bali’s Ngurah Rai airport, alongside *three Sukhoi fighter jets, to be used as security during the flight*.



Joko Widodo has lost the plot. The Joker thinks he Barack Obama and is getting a real kick out of being a big shot and muscling up against Tony Abbott. Who does Widodo think he is dealing with, "*ISIS*?

One thing is certain, Widodo won't EVER step foot inside  Australia if the execution of Chan and Sukumaran goes ahead as planned.

Fighter Jets, just big boys toys.

http://www.news.com.au/national/fig...-to-death-island/story-fncynjr2-1227234520208


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> Joko Widodo has lost the plot.




And what plot is that? The one that says Indonesia should allow itself to be bullied by Australia, or the plot which says that Indonesian nationalists will not allow their country to cave-in to foreign pressure – on anything!



Macquack said:


> One thing is certain, Widodo won't EVER step foot inside Australia if the execution of Chan and Sukumaran goes ahead as planned.




Widodo is a politician who cares more about what Indonesians think than what Australians think. And this is what 75% of Indonesians think:

Polls show support for the death penalty in Indonesia generally sits at around 75 per cent.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/does-the-death-penalty-deter-drug-smugglers-20150123-12wby2.html

I don't think those 75% of Indonesians or Widodo himself will care if he does not set foot in Australia.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2015)

No more of our money for them.


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> No more of our money for them.




Until Labor and the Greens get back into office. Then they will double the aid budget and invite Widodo to Australia to sit round a campfire with them and sing:
_Kumbaya Allah, Kumabaya, 
Kumbaya Allah, Kumbaya, 
Kumbaya Allah, Kumbaya, 
Oh Allah, Kumbaya._


----------



## Macquack (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> And what plot is that?




The bit where Joko Widodo is engaging military fighter aircraft to usher "two bit" criminals Chan and Sukumaran to another prison, and getting some political mileage out of it.

If you don't think that is a overreaction, I give up.


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> The bit where Joko Widodo is engaging military fighter aircraft to usher "two bit" criminals Chan and Sukumaran to another prison, and getting some political mileage out of it.
> 
> If you don't think that is a overreaction, I give up.




It's not an overreaction at all.
It's just playing to his audience, which is what politicians do all the time.

_PS: Or do you think that playing to the audience is exclusively the preserve of Australian politicians and that Indonesian politicians should not indulge in such behaviour because it offends Australians?_

BTW: They have to use military transport because Garuda has refused to transport Chan and Sukumaran.


----------



## Macquack (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> It's *not an overreaction at all*.
> It's just *playing to his audience*, which is what politicians do all the time.




Well the average Indonesian must be pretty ****ing stupid then, or they are all drinking to much Bintang.


----------



## explod (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> Until Labor and the Greens get back into office. Then they will double the aid budget and invite Widodo to Australia to sit round a campfire with them and sing:
> _Kumbaya Allah, Kumabaya,
> Kumbaya Allah, Kumbaya,
> Kumbaya Allah, Kumbaya,
> Oh Allah, Kumbaya._




Rubbish.  And I say that as a green of 15 years. 

The death penalty when carried out is murder.  It brings the murderer down to the same level as the person murdered.  But that would not worry Indonesia,  look what they did in East Timor (the journalists in particular) 

In that I am saying that the penalties for murder,  and equal to that is rape of any person and assaults on young persons.   Such offenders (in my own view here)  should be confined for life and made to work for the state.   To ensure  this whipping maybe required.  

Many who murder are psychologicaly on the edge and the possibility of thier own death is no deterrent.

SO LOUD AND CLEAR THE GOVERNMENT AND THE MEDIA NEED TO TELL INDONESIAN'S,

THEY ARE MURDERES.


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> Well the average Indonesian must be pretty ****ing stupid then, or they are all drinking to much Bintang.




Stupid about what? 
Voting for Widodo or for supporting the death penalty?

Given that around 90% of the Indonesian population are muslims it would be unlikely that the ‘average Indonesian’ drinks any Bintang.

So is the ‘average Indonesian’ more ****ing stupid than the ‘average Australian’ who votes for Labor or the Greens?


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

explod said:


> SO LOUD AND CLEAR THE GOVERNMENT AND THE MEDIA NEED TO TELL INDONESIAN'S,
> THEY ARE MURDERES.




And this achieves what exactly?


----------



## Macquack (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> Stupid about what?




About thinking Australia is going to invade Indonesia to save two criminals.

BTW, trying to inject your bias on Australian politics is pathetic.


----------



## explod (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> And this achieves what exactly?




If said loud and clear they may at some time stop and think.   Certainly not going to change a thing in the short term due to pride,  but being labeled murderers will not sit well in the longer term if they have any concience at all. 

What do you suggest Bintang?


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> About thinking Australia is going to invade Indonesia to save two criminals.




That’s your own thought but I don’t think it is theirs, in which case are you just ****ing stupid or have you been drinking too much Australian beer?



Macquack said:


> BTW, trying to inject your bias on Australian politics is pathetic.



Bias? In what way am I biased?


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

explod said:


> If said loud and clear they may at some time stop and think.   Certainly not going to change a thing in the short term due to pride,  but being labeled murderers will not sit well in the longer term if they have any concience at all.




Trouble is they are in good company.
If we send out a loud and clear communiquÃ© on the subject it probably shoud be copied to USA and Saudi Arabia and every other country on the map below that is coloured red:







explod said:


> What do you suggest Bintang?




Save our energies for other causes.


----------



## explod (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> Trouble is they are in good company.
> If we send out a loud and clear communiquÃ© on the subject it probably shoud be copied to USA and Saudi Arabia and every other country on the map below that is coloured red:
> 
> View attachment 61744
> ...




When I worked in Research and Development (1981 to 1986) many of our new approaches and procedures were adopted by many police forces around the world.   

Not sure if it is a cesspool of different cultures or our  need to survive in a hard land,  but it is well acknowleged that Australians are innovative and original in thinking.  Outsourcing for ideas and recommendations from overseas,  as the current government is doing is a joke. 

If enough get behind it,  good can overcome evil. 

Lets just repeat,  CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IS MURDER.  

Could be the warmer weather,  notice the murderes are more towards the equator,  cooler heads to north and south.


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

explod said:


> Lets just repeat,  CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IS MURDER.




I don't disagree with this.
Hey ... China, Japan, USA, Saudi Arabia  … and others …. Are you listening too?



explod said:


> Could be the warmer weather, notice the murderes are more towards the equator, cooler heads to north and south.




Alaska doesn't quite fit - not yet anyway - but global warming is on its way.


----------



## explod (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> I don't disagree with this.
> Hey ... China, Japan, USA, Saudi Arabia  … and others …. Are you listening too?
> 
> 
> ...




Alaska are really part of the good ole us of a.   You have Russia in the green,  unless my geog is out. 

Global warming is here and arguing is not going to stop it now.  Just party my friend.


----------



## Bintang (25 February 2015)

explod said:


> The death penalty when carried out is murder.  It brings the murderer down to the same level as the person murdered.
> 
> SO LOUD AND CLEAR THE GOVERNMENT AND THE MEDIA NEED TO TELL INDONESIAN'S,  THEY ARE MURDERES.




*Saudi Arabia court gives death penalty to man who renounced his Muslim faith*




NB: The death sentence in Saudi Arabia is carried out by public beheading.

*So let’s hear it now LOUD and CLEAR for Saudi Arabia.
Come on Australian media, come on Australian leaders, let's hear your protests and indignation directed at the Saudi Arabian rulers. *

Or maybe since the poor bastard is not Australian we don't need to say anything.
Besides there are probably not many votes in it for the Australian pollies.


----------



## Macquack (25 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> NB: The death sentence in Saudi Arabia is carried out by public beheading.
> 
> *So let’s hear it now LOUD and CLEAR for Saudi Arabia.
> Come on Australian media, come on Australian leaders, let's hear your protests and indignation directed at the Saudi Arabian rulers. *
> ...




What station do you get off at Bintang, Beatupville?

Read your own link:- 







> The death penalty is the standard penalty for apostasy in the Muslim world, though it is *rarely carried out*, even in Saudi Arabia which still carries out regular executions.
> 
> The man in this case has the *right to appeal*, and can also *avoid the penalty by repenting.*




This dude will get a reprieve unlike Chan and Sukumaran. So we don't give a rats **** about the Saudi Arabian as they are all nuts and you agree.


----------



## DB008 (25 February 2015)

explod said:


> Lets just repeat,  CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IS MURDER.




So?

I believe in the death penalty.

Rapists
Pedophiles
Murders

All deserve the death penalty.


----------



## Bintang (25 February 2015)

Macquack said:


> What station do you get off at Bintang, Beatupville?
> 
> Read your own link:-
> 
> This dude will get a reprieve unlike Chan and Sukumaran. So we don't give a rats **** about the Saudi Arabian as they are all nuts and you agree.




*Saudi Arabia beheads three more people including two drug smugglers just days after new king assumes the throne*
•	_One of the men, a convicted heroin trafficker, executed in holy city Mecca
•	The other two were accused of incest and smuggling amphetamine pills
•	Days ago Moussa al-Zahrani, who said he was framed, executed for rape_

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2928930/Saudi-Arabia-beheads-three-criminals-including-two-drug-smugglers-just-days-new-king-assumes-throne.html

_Al-Zahrani was one of 11 people beheaded in Saudi Arabia so far this year. Saudi Arabia executed 87 people last year, up from 78 in 2013._

Is that *rare enough *for you Macquack?


----------



## explod (25 February 2015)

DB008 said:


> So?
> 
> I believe in the death penalty.
> 
> ...




Lets them off the hook too easy,  they need to be put under hard labour and flogged to get the best out of them for the State. 

Having mixed among them for some years most of them see nothing to lose in being put to death themselves. 

Murdering them is not the answer.   And as with guns and war,  killing them feeds a psychological mindset of violence in the community.   If one studies sociology you find that killing from any side does more harm than good.


----------



## DB008 (25 February 2015)

explod said:


> Lets them off the hook too easy, they need to be *put under hard labour and flogged* to get the best out of them for the State.




Which century are you living in? When/where does this happen in Western prisons? Hard labour and floggings, lol. Maybe ISIS/ISIL/IS do this, but the West does not.

I'm sure a one off, cost of a bullet, is cheaper than keeping Martin Bryant alive all these years...


----------



## explod (25 February 2015)

DB008 said:


> Which century are you living in? When/where does this happen in Western prisons? Hard labour and floggings, lol. Maybe ISIS/ISIL/IS do this, but the West does not.
> 
> I'm sure a one off, cost of a bullet, is cheaper than keeping Martin Bryant alive all these years...




I have been a researcher and ideas person.   I agree its in the cloud stuff but current systems are not working so why not pontificate on some new ways.   Counselling programms in the youth detention centre's had a very high success rate yet the previous liberal  government here in victoria closed them down. 

Pollies cannot see past thier noses and should take the lead from  people working on the ground/coalface.


----------



## Hodgie (26 February 2015)

DB008 said:


> So?
> 
> I believe in the death penalty.
> 
> ...




The silly thing is we are fairly light on the punishment for people that commit the above crimes anyway. Convicted murderers/rapists/pedophiles can get out of prison in 20 years or less in our system. Only in rare cases does a sentence of 'life' actually mean that they will stay in prison until they die let alone actually carrying out a death sentence here.

If you are going to commit a serious crime Australia is a good place to do it.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 February 2015)

Hey, Rolf Harris doesn't deserve death and now their gunning for Cliff Richard!


----------



## Bintang (26 February 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> Hey, Rolf Harris doesn't deserve death and now their gunning for Cliff Richard!




Both of them should convert to Islam and take up residence in one of the UK no-go zones for non-muslims.
Under Sharia law they will be innocent of any crime and will be able to continue indulging their fantasies.


----------



## Hodgie (26 February 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> Hey, Rolf Harris doesn't deserve death and now their gunning for Cliff Richard!




Well as with any crime there has to be different punishments for different degrees. 

A blanket approach of "murderers/pedos/rapist deserve the death penalty" isn't fair. Things such as intend, the environment/circumstances in which it happened, to what degree, why, the state of mind of the accused etc are all relevant factors which need to be taken into consideration before handing down a sentence.

I think the worst part about the death penalty is that it is final, it cannot be reversed. There have been people that have spent 10+ years on death row to eventually be released and vindicated of any crimes they were committed of upon reviewing the evidence or new evidence coming to light.


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## Hodgie (26 February 2015)

Hodgie said:


> The silly thing is we are fairly light on the punishment for people that commit the above crimes anyway. Convicted murderers/rapists/pedophiles can get out of prison in 20 years or less in our system. Only in rare cases does a sentence of 'life' actually mean that they will stay in prison until they die let alone actually carrying out a death sentence here.
> 
> If you are going to commit a serious crime Australia is a good place to do it.




Here's a perfect example out of smh today. 

This animal of a human knocked out and sexually assaulted a mentally ill woman on a Sydney train and only got "at least 9 years".

He had previously been convicted and put in prison for "at least 3 years" for a series of sexual assaults between 1984 and 2002. 

He is clearly an animal and long term rapist that has little chance of changing his ways, he will be eligible for parole in 2023.

We are far too soft on people like this, they need to be locked up and throw away the key.

full article; http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/woman-kno...-then-sexually-assaulted-20150226-13p85q.html


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## Tink (26 February 2015)

Agree, Hodgie.

There is something wrong with our justice system, when they continuously let these animals out.

Unbelievable.


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## Macquack (4 March 2015)

The Indonesian's are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

Using *armoured personnel carriers *to transport criminals Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran  , what are the authorities worried about, someone might shoot the condemned men.


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## Bintang (4 March 2015)

Macquack said:


> The Indonesian's are not the sharpest tools in the shed.
> 
> Using *armoured personnel carriers *to transport criminals Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran  , what are the authorities worried about, someone might shoot the condemned men.




They are probably no less sharp than anyone else who reads The Australian newspaper:


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## Logique (5 March 2015)

The Indonesian President might at least listen to Tony Iommi.



> http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...r-clemency-20150304-13upso.html#ixzz3TRi246yH
> 
> ...Please allow them to serve out life sentences where they contribute to the wellbeing of lndonesia and make good for the error of their previous ways. I do hope you will consider this personal appeal.
> 
> ...


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## Hodgie (5 March 2015)

We hear a lot about the Aussies who are soon to be executed but it is interesting to see the other 8 prisoners who will be executed along side them.

The one that stood out to me is someone by the name of Martin Anderson from Ghana. He was sentenced to death for being in possession of just 50 grams of heroin.

I cannot find much information on him but that seems to be a ridiculously small amount to warrant the death penalty, I wonder if he received support and representation from his country. It seems like a real injustice. It does not even say that he was attempting to traffic the drug but simply had a (relatively) small amount on his person when arrested.

article of the other 8 to be executed; http://www.smh.com.au/world/bali-ni...-before-the-firing-squad-20150305-13v48w.html


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## sptrawler (5 March 2015)

Hodgie said:


> We hear a lot about the Aussies who are soon to be executed but it is interesting to see the other 8 prisoners who will be executed along side them.
> 
> The one that stood out to me is someone by the name of Martin Anderson from Ghana. He was sentenced to death for being in possession of just 50 grams of heroin.
> 
> ...




Makes one think, the other seven of the Bali nine, were pretty lucky.


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## orr (5 March 2015)

Hodgie said:


> We hear a lot about the Aussies who are soon to be executed but it is interesting to see the other 8 prisoners who will be executed along side them.
> 
> The one that stood out to me is someone by the name of Martin Anderson from Ghana. He was sentenced to death for being in possession of just 50 grams of heroin.
> 
> ...





I'm no lingist, and have no qualms with tortured analogies. But in this context I think of the word barbarism and Barabbas .... At calvary they were all nailed up... from memory', I think Christ had something to say about this, but it was so long ago.......Was Bernardi on hand this morning?


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## Wysiwyg (5 March 2015)

I believe Australians are being treated with contempt again. Again being because there are several contributors to mass murdering and injuring Australians in 2002 that are free, yes friggin free .  



> 92 Australians were killed in the 2002 and 2005 attacks
> All 36 terrorists who were not sentenced to life are now free
> Five men form the two attacks remain *behind bars
> Up to 100 more terrorist could be free by next year


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## sptrawler (6 March 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> I believe Australians are being treated with contempt again. Again being because there are several contributors to mass murdering and injuring Australians in 2002 that are free, yes friggin free .




Yes, unfortunately we don't have the death penalty, and they didn't offend on our land.

The sad fact is in Australia, you can end someones life in the most horrific way, and get to debate how much time you spend in paid accomodation for it.


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## noirua (21 April 2018)

*Alabama executes Walter Moody, the oldest inmate put to death in the modern era*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ted-in-modern-history/?utm_term=.988738ec9fba

Three decades after a bombing campaign claimed the life of a federal judge, set off panic and prompted a sprawling federal investigation, authorities in Alabama executed the now-83-year-old man convicted in the explosions.


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## noirua (28 January 2022)

The state of Oklahoma has executed Donald Grant, a 46-year-old disabled Black man convicted of two murders, by lethal injection despite a lawsuit against the method.
27 January 2022


			Donald Grant requested three pints of strawberry ice cream and chanted just before execution
		

The Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board voted 4-1 against recommending clemency.


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## The Triangle (4 February 2022)

Perth psychologist to spend at least 34 years behind bars over 'brutal' double-murder
					

A Perth psychologist who recorded a rehearsal video before committing a "brutal, merciless and terrifying" double murder receives one of the longest minimum jail terms in West Australian history as the victims' family proclaim "justice has been served".




					www.abc.net.au
				




34 years for two brutal murders?  Is that all?   How do they not lock him away forever?  Or bring back capital punishment and be done with him in a month.    He'll probably be out in his 50s on good behaviour with my tax dollars subsidizing the remaining years of his life not to mention the next 30 in prison.

Think of all the people we've killed by letting covid in to the country.  What's a few more very bad people killed via lethal injection or the chair?


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## Investoradam (6 February 2022)

*A father, who was devastated after finding his friend abused his six-year-old daughter, made the pedophile dig his own grave before stabbing him to death, according to reports.*


The father discovered a graphic mobile phone video showing his best friend, Oleg Sviridov, making his daughter perform sex acts.


The disturbing footage shows the daughter crying, _"I want to go home,"_ according to The Sun.


The father then attacked Sviridov after finding the video by chance.


Sviridov was also found to have abused two other girls in the village in southern Russia's Samara region.








						Angry Father Makes Pedophile ‘Dig His Own Grave' after Abusing His Daughter
					

The father was later arrested on suspicion of murder - A father, who was devastated after finding his friend abused his six-year-old daughter, made the&... | NEON NETTLE




					neonnettle.com
				





if only this was legal in Aus! near zero of kids would be touched
bring back the death penalty i day!  but to many sick  polies,academics etc wield to much power


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## noirua (28 February 2022)

Tycoon’s son sentenced to death in Pakistan in high-profile rape and murder case
					

Zahir Jaffer tortured and beheaded Noor Mukadam, in July last year, in case that sparked outrage over violence against women




					www.theguardian.com


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