# Termites



## Julia (4 March 2009)

This is a reminder to not get complacent about having termite check done regularly and the termite barrier around the house replaced regularly.

I let two years go by since the last termite inspection (which gave the all clear) and the pest control person has just told me there are termites in front half of the house, affecting all window frames and quite possibly the timber framework in the walls.

Have no idea of cost of replacing all this, but obviously it won't be cheap.
Damn! plus a few more expressive curses!

So keep up the regular checks, folks - they'll be a lot cheaper than the alternative.


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## kincella (4 March 2009)

on tv last week...CA or the FRi night house and garden on ch 7....they said it would cost about $4000 to replace the inside of an ordinary 3 bdr house...so it is cheaper to have the inspection done every 12 months....
I can guarantee that the builders would charge far more than that in the real world, remove the plaster etc, repaint, replace all the timber....
they aslo stated that garden mulch is the worst thing to have near your house.....relayed that to an aunt, who ,because of the drought , has been mulching everywhere...to protect whats left of the garden....
oh and some people think because they have a brick house its not a problem..
and I know of people who would not buy a timber house for that reason...
thinking it cannot happen to a brick house


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## Julia (4 March 2009)

Yes, I have a brick house.  But there is mulch on garden bed adjacent the affected walls, though last time I checked the weep holes were still clear.


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## Stan 101 (4 March 2009)

For anyone building a new dwelling it is imperitive to ask for H3 treated pine trusses and frames. There is the option of a Light Organic Solvent Preservative (LOSP) or one of the derivatives.
The cost is approximately $160 per cubic metre + the cost of untreated radiata / slash pine and gives real piece of mind.

The treatment is safe and is pyrithium based. Apparently safe enough to eat.

cheers,


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## Prospector (4 March 2009)

Oh Damn, Julia, that is bad news.

A friend of ours realised after some time that her house had termites.  Badly.  Especially in one of her son's bedrooms, right in the wall where his bed was.  It was so badly eaten away that they could be heard munching!  So she asked him if he had heard anything (he was maybe 8 years old) and he said yes, he could hear all this noise going on in the wall so he put his ear muffs on to hide the noise to sleep!   How long for, she asked.  Hmm, I dunno, a few weeks!  

She had to replace all her timber floors (they had eaten underneath, just leaving a thin veneer) as well as timber and woodwork to three bedrooms and bathroom.

Are you near a creek by chance?


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## prawn_86 (4 March 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> For anyone building a new dwelling it is imperitive to ask for H3 treated pine trusses and frames. There is the option of a Light Organic Solvent Preservative (LOSP) or one of the derivatives.
> The cost is approximately $160 per cubic metre + the cost of untreated radiata / slash pine and gives real piece of mind.
> 
> The treatment is safe and is pyrithium based. Apparently safe enough to eat.
> ...




Why not steel frames?


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## Green08 (4 March 2009)

Western Red Cedar is resistant to termites. Beautiful colour, on the expensive side and if you have the pull up windows and don't turn the lock first you will knock a piece of timber off. Ouch

Sorry to hear of your problems Julia hope there is a relatively viable opion for you.


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## Stan 101 (4 March 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Why not steel frames?




There are numerous issues with steel frame.

1. Corrosion. You need to trust all welds, rivets  and cuts of the steel section have been adequately treated. I'm yet to see one steel frame / truss house installed correctly. Fixing to the steel frame is via tek screw (self drilling). This creates swarf and bare steel areas ready for corrosion. Likewise, holes need to be drilled through noggs and studs for electrical and plumbing. Those holes are never treated with a corrosion inhibitor.

2. Fire. A standard section 90x35 pine can be charred 10mm around the whole envolope and still retain it's ability to withstand all dead loads (the weight of plaster, roof tiles, solar hot water system and the like). Apply heat (no need for direct flame) to steel frame c section and it loses it's tension and compression properties and fails catastrophically.

3. Fixings. Adding fixings such as shelving and the like are a much easiler with a more positive connection.

4. Noise from expansion and contraction.

5. Easy site rectification with timber (and they are required more than you will ever know. Having the head height (bottom of lintel or sill) incorrectly manufactured is a minor inconvenience for a timber frame. It is a major **** up in steel.

5. Timber is a plantation product and comes from sustainable reforestation. It locks up carbon (the latest catch cry on everyone's lips) where as the manufacture of rolled steel is the devil in this regard.

6. It's a misnomer to think steel frames stop termites. They simply travel over the steel to the tasty architraves. The bottom plate of the steel frame can often hold moisture that attracts termites and have them nesting in the cavity between the brickwork and the internal plasterboard. 

That's a nice start... I would never purchase a steel frame based on years of industry knowledge and onsite inspections.


Cheers,


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## quinny (4 March 2009)

Julia said:


> affecting all window frames and quite possibly the timber framework in the walls.






Julia said:


> Yes, I have a brick house.




I am not entirely familiar with building structures but how come you say you have a brick house, yet you have a timber framework in the walls?

I am just wondering. Do they build up the brick around the timber?


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## Stan 101 (4 March 2009)

quinny said:


> Do they build up the brick around the timber?




Traditionally on the east coast of Oz, yes. It is referred to as brick veneer framed housing. Generally you will find a 110mm of brick, a cavity (empty space) of 40-50mm and then either a 70mm or 90mm frame cladded with plasterboard, fc sheet or the like.


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## awg (4 March 2009)

good chance the termite inspection missed the prob 2 yrs ago.

I have taken to doing these myself, after finding some myself once

called the termite blokes and they were too fat and lazy to crawl into the tight space that the termites were, they never would have been found with a quick inspection. they even gave me a mouthful, so I sent them away, and dealt with the problem myself

the best way is to use a VERY bright light and inspect EVERY possible spot were they can build a covered mud tunnel, from the ground, which they MUST do.

If u search your underfloor area like this every 6 months, you should be ok.

NO WOOD should be in contact with the earth. (they will bore up the middle)

I realize u r a lady, but this is one u can manage IMO, u will get dirty and have spider webs on u, if u do it properly

really bad problems come about, if additions or modifications have been made that mean the termites have invisible access to woodwork...I have seen this, ie timber houses that have been bricked up...the only way forward is internal wall removal


they usually tunnel up in a very concealed, damp spot.

they are all through the soil, eating organic matter, and always try to come back.

the electronic meters they use wont pick up an early tunnel.

very strong poisons are needed to eradicate them, and it only lasts a while.

used sump oil soaked into the ground, around a wooden item will deter them (old-fashioned solution), not so sure the EPA would like that now.

having said all that, u will need builders and termite sprayers to rectify now, unless u r very handy with the tools.

termite traps can be bought to show the presence


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## quinny (4 March 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Traditionally on the east coast of Oz, yes. It is referred to as brick veneer framed housing. Generally you will find a 110mm of brick, a cavity (empty space) of 40-50mm and then either a 70mm or 90mm frame cladded with plasterboard, fc sheet or the like.




Thankyou Stan 101.


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## Glen48 (4 March 2009)

There is another system were PVC pipes are placed under the slab and you are suppose to get some one out to pump more product into the system.. shame they banned Arsenic. I have see  W. Ants going up the outside of a Brick wall heading to the Ceiling. Moisture is some thing else they like.


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## Aargh! (4 March 2009)

quinny said:


> I am not entirely familiar with building structures but how come you say you have a brick house, yet you have a timber framework in the walls?
> 
> I am just wondering. Do they build up the brick around the timber?




It's a common misconception that people think they're safe as the exterior of their house is brick while being unaware that the brick is purely there as a facade and provides no structural integrity other than transferring wind load to the timber frame.

Both timber and galvanised steel construction have their advantages and disadvantages. Termite proof timber (timber soaked in nasty chemicals) offer great protection from the critters. I have questioned the ability to resist them when saw cuts are made to construct the frames/trusses but have been told they still wont go near the stuff. 

Galvanised steel isn't as bad as made out. Corrosion is not so much of an issue as the gal can provide protection to the exposed steel in close proximity. Steel needs to be heated to over 200 deg C before it starts to lose is strength. It doesn't fail catastrophically either, you do get some warning (through excessive deflections) that it's about to come down. Timber will just collapse.

A timber section common to house construction such as 70x35 and 90x35 can not carry loads if charred 10mm around its perimeter. The inherent factors of safety to allow for the inconsistencies in timber approximate to the timber to maintain its strength when it maintains over 70% of its cross sectional area. 

Not all of this is applicable to all situations as it depends on the sections role in the structural system.


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## Prospector (4 March 2009)

So are double brick houses (ie no timber internal walls) safer?


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## Aargh! (4 March 2009)

Prospector said:


> So are double brick houses (ie no timber internal walls) safer?




Well depends....

Double brick walls are resistant to termite attack however if there are timber roof trusses I've seen termites scale these to get a feed.

Double brick walls offer better thermal resistance to fire however the roof would still collapse, which wont provide lateral stability to the walls and they would then fall over.

So it's a system as strong as its weakest part. The walls hold up the roof while the roof holds up the walls!


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## Stan 101 (4 March 2009)

Aargh! said:


> It's a common misconception that people think they're safe as the exterior of their house is brick while being unaware that the brick is purely there as a facade and provides no structural integrity other than transferring wind load to the timber frame.



generally that is correct unless one is using a Rock block or similar.



> Both timber and galvanised steel construction have their advantages and disadvantages.



Agreed. 



> Termite proof timber (timber soaked in nasty chemicals) offer great protection from the critters.



pyrithium can hardly be referred to as a nasty chemical. If you are referring to CCA, that hasn't been used for treatment to H3 for eons. It is still used for H5 treatment for inground timbers.
Could you shed some more light on these chemicals you speak of?



> I have questioned the ability to resist them when saw cuts are made to construct the frames/trusses but have been told they still wont go near the stuff.



H3 treatment is a full penetration treatment. End cuts offer the same ability to repel as the dyed edge. I think you may be referring to the old style, early LOSP H2 treatments that were only an envelope. They were traditionally cut to length and angle, strapped then dipped in the solution, left to dry and then assembled.
The dye used in treated timber is simply that. It has no bearing on properties of the timber, except it's slipperiness which can affect nailplate bite.




> Galvanised steel isn't as bad as made out. Corrosion is not so much of an issue as the gal can provide protection to the exposed steel in close proximity.




Not from our findings.




> Steel needs to be heated to over 200 deg C before it starts to lose is strength. It doesn't fail catastrophically either, you do get some warning (through excessive deflections) that it's about to come down. Timber will just collapse.



True. Create an environment where excessive defection is on a girder's bottom member (in tension) with an average 12 kilo newton dead load @ 900mm centres and tell me that won't end in a catastrophic result. With excessive deflection in the bottom chord, the top chords will be forced into excessive buckling sending the truss out of plane. Once that starts, restraints can't hold and down she comes. I can offer you a 3d animation offered to the coroner of such an example.



> A timber section common to house construction such as 70x35 and 90x35 can not carry loads if charred 10mm around its perimeter. The inherent factors of safety to allow for the inconsistencies in timber approximate to the timber to maintain its strength when it maintains over 70% of its cross sectional area.




You aren't taking into account other factors incorporated in the truss / frame design. I just ran the comps on a 9m span truss bottom chord and the member passed under dead load as did 2335mm stud with a restraint at 1350mm.


But I get your points.


Cheers,


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## awg (4 March 2009)

Prospector said:


> So are double brick houses (ie no timber internal walls) safer?




yes, usually, cause both brick courses are usually on a concrete slab, with no wood ties at ground level, so the termites dont get in.

Termites NEED water, so they MUST have a connecting tunnel to the ground.

If there is a possible point of ingress below ground, or poor maintenance, termites can penetrate brick courses, or even concrete, and get into the roof trusses, so you should inspect them as well.

same deal as underfloor, bright light, check everywhere, get very dirty.


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## Aargh! (4 March 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> generally that is correct unless one is using a Rock block or similar.
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> ...




OK, if you want to start spinning numbers you will have to put it specific about the situation you are referring to. 

You refer to a timber girder truss loaded @ 900crs (I assume it's carrying perpendicular trusses) with point loads of 12kN. Now this must be a concrete tiled roof with large spans? Span, pitch, ply's, restraints (battens and steel strap) all play a role in the top chords restraint. Web ties as well. I don't need a 3D animation, I've designed these things before and have a good knowledge of how they work. I've also experience in steel design. If you want a fire proof/termite proof house build a concrete box, 100mm cover to steel 40MPa would do it.

What do you mean I'm not taking into account other factors? My last comment reads "Not all of this is applicable to all situations as it depends on the sections role in the structural system.".

You say you just run the comps on a 9m truss. A bottom chord is in tension, not bending, not compression (unless under a wind event) so what has restraint centers got to do with it? Axial tension stress is simply load/area, nothing to do with slenderness or second moments of area...

You're telling me a stud with 30% of its cross-sectional area and exponentially reduced slenderness will be sufficient? I'm highly scepetical and curious.


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## Aargh! (4 March 2009)

awg said:


> yes, usually, cause both brick courses are usually on a concrete slab, with no wood ties at ground level, so the termites dont get in.
> 
> Termites NEED water, so they MUST have a connecting tunnel to the ground.
> 
> ...




The brick course is on slab in brick veneer construction. Same boat in this regard.


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## sinner (4 March 2009)

Aargh! said:


> You're telling me a stud with 30% of its cross-sectional area and exponentially reduced slenderness will be sufficient? I'm highly scepetical and curious.




Nerd :


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## Stan 101 (4 March 2009)

Aargh! said:


> OK, if you want to start spinning numbers you will have to put it specific about the situation you are referring to.



 Yes, no excuse.. It was just a very basic example of how excessive deflections can cause failure. 




> What do you mean I'm not taking into account other factors?




 By those factors I mean one can assume not taking live load into account, for instance. It's highly unlikely there will be anyone crawling around in the ceiling or anything of substantial mass being placed on the dwelling.



> so what has restraint centers got to do with it?



 I was lost there for a bit I think you assumes truss restarint due to my poor english.. I was relating to the stud restraint, or nogg. Assuming 1350mm is an industry standard. on a 2.4m wall it is less.




> You're telling me a stud with 30% of its cross-sectional area and exponentially reduced slenderness will be sufficient? I'm highly scepetical and curious.



 Yes, a 70x15 stud is suitable for a RLW (roof load width) of 3200mm assuming full adherence to the code. So there enough to 5500mm span. Bending is the critical factor. 

A 70x15 with reduced loads sure does handle 9000mm.
Assuming:
79kg/m^ (tiles, roof batten, truss self weight, 10mm plasterboard ceiling, and ceiling battens. - 4kg/m^ if direct fixing the ceiling.)
Live load 
Wind up
Wind down
32 m/second

We can safely massively reduce the the wind loads as it is now a temporary dwelling. As mentioned above we can safely assume no live load. We can also raise our max deflection as aesthetics don't really come into play. 9000mm span is fine.


Timber is an excellent product for domestic housing.

cheers,


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## Aargh! (4 March 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Yes, no excuse.. It was just a very basic example of how excessive deflections can cause failure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok so now we're just picking for the sake of being picky 

With regard to loading combinations during a fire you would have to consider full live loading (may it be from pooling water from firies pumping water up there or perhaps they get on the roof for access, not unheard of).

With restraint centers I was referring to the trusses bottom chord. As it's in tension it isn't critical that it's restrained.

I would assume the 70x35 would reduce to 50x15 section assuming all faces need to be exposed to fire and burn uniformly. I would guarantee this would fail with the reduction in section depth (width in this case is restrained at nogging centres, no restraint in major axis).

I agree with your loadings, typically 1.0kPa for tiled roof for quick calcs. Deflections not critical (these only play a role in serviceability requirements).

Timber is an awesome material for houses (cheap), hence it's popularity 

BTW I assume you're with a truss/frame supplier... What design program do you use? start with M or a P?


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## Calliope (4 March 2009)

awg said:


> Termites NEED water, so they MUST have a connecting tunnel to the ground.




You are right. Termites are attracted to moisture. That's why to come above ground they have to build galleries so they are never exposed to the open air. They even have to take liquids back to their nests to maintain a constant humidity in the nest. Outside this environment they die.

In dry weather they are naturally attracted to gardens which are regularly watered and these are often very close to the house. Once there, they are ingenious at finding an entry point to carry out their mission which is  to expedite the passage of dead and decaying timber back to the soil.

In nature they perform an essential function and they don't discriminate. The only way to protect your house is as Awg says is to get down and dirty, and be eternally vigilant. Try to think like a termite.


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## Stan 101 (4 March 2009)

Aargh! said:


> I would assume the 70x35 would reduce to 50x15 section



 Yep, I based it on a 90x35 stud...



> BTW I assume you're with a truss/frame supplier... What design program do you use? start with M or a P?




No, but PM sent..

Sorry for the hijack, Julia. I got manic.. Let us know the outcome after the inspection...

cheers,


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## sails (4 March 2009)

Julia said:


> This is a reminder to not get complacent about having termite check done regularly and the termite barrier around the house replaced regularly.
> 
> I let two years go by since the last termite inspection (which gave the all clear) and the pest control person has just told me there are termites in front half of the house, affecting all window frames and quite possibly the timber framework in the walls.
> 
> ...




That is horrible news, Julia. I certainly hope it can be repaired at a reasonable price.  I am guessing that insurance doesn't cover termite repairs?


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## Julia (4 March 2009)

Many thanks for replies, folks.   I hoped by reporting the bad news it might just remind a few people of the necessity for regular checks.



Prospector said:


> Oh Damn, Julia, that is bad news.
> 
> A friend of ours realised after some time that her house had termites.  Badly.  Especially in one of her son's bedrooms, right in the wall where his bed was.  It was so badly eaten away that they could be heard munching!  So she asked him if he had heard anything (he was maybe 8 years old) and he said yes, he could hear all this noise going on in the wall so he put his ear muffs on to hide the noise to sleep!   How long for, she asked.  Hmm, I dunno, a few weeks!
> 
> She had to replace all her timber floors (they had eaten underneath, just leaving a thin veneer) as well as timber and woodwork to three bedrooms and bathroom.



How awful.   As far as I know the extent of my problem is confined to three window frames, plus a skirting board which could indicate some also in timber wall frame.  Won't know, he says, until window frame is removed and wall structure can be inspected.




> Are you near a creek by chance?



No, a few minutes' walk to the sea which wouldn't have anything to do with it.  But the garden next to the affected wall is densely planted and kept well watered, probably the perfect environment for the  termites.  





quinny said:


> I am not entirely familiar with building structures but how come you say you have a brick house, yet you have a timber framework in the walls?
> 
> I am just wondering. Do they build up the brick around the timber?



Yes, quinny, the brick is just a single layer veneer.  You see the slab of concrete being poured for the foundation, next the timber frames go up, then some thin building paper (someone will probably tell me there's a correct name for this) and then a single wall of bricks on the outside.   Then plasterboard on the interior.




awg said:


> good chance the termite inspection missed the prob 2 yrs ago.



I wondered about that, awg. 2 years ago he found termites in some stumps of trees that had been cut down out in the garden quite some distance from the house, treated those, and declared the house was fine.




> I have taken to doing these myself, after finding some myself once
> 
> called the termite blokes and they were too fat and lazy to crawl into the tight space that the termites were, they never would have been found with a quick inspection.



Where would you have to crawl into?  The bloke today was some time in the roof.  He couldn't get into the walls, so I guess you must mean under the house?



> they even gave me a mouthful, so I sent them away, and dealt with the problem myself
> 
> the best way is to use a VERY bright light and inspect EVERY possible spot were they can build a covered mud tunnel, from the ground, which they MUST do.
> 
> ...



Heavens, awg, I wouldn't even know where/how to get under the house and honestly don't think I'm up to crawling around down there.  Where would the usual access point be?




> really bad problems come about, if additions or modifications have been made that mean the termites have invisible access to woodwork...I have seen this, ie timber houses that have been bricked up...the only way forward is internal wall removal
> 
> 
> they usually tunnel up in a very concealed, damp spot.



Such as I have so kindly provided for them, it seems, with my moist, mulched garden bed.  I have to conclude it's this, as the areas where there is paving adjacent to the house are apparently quite OK.





> they are all through the soil, eating organic matter, and always try to come back.
> 
> the electronic meters they use wont pick up an early tunnel.
> 
> very strong poisons are needed to eradicate them, and it only lasts a while.



The original barrier chemical when the house was built (16 years ago) is no longer used.  It was supposed to be very effective and to last for about ten years.  Have been informed the current one lasts maximum of five years and still needs to have inspections done at least annually.





> used sump oil soaked into the ground, around a wooden item will deter them (old-fashioned solution), not so sure the EPA would like that now.



I have to say I'm more focused on eliminating termites than pleasing the EPA so have noted this suggestion.  Where would one get used sump oil?  A mechanical workshop?



> having said all that, u will need builders and termite sprayers to rectify now, unless u r very handy with the tools.



Awg, I can't tell you how funny is any suggestion that I might be 'handy with tools".  Utterly useless would be being kind when describing my abilities in this direction.





> termite traps can be bought to show the presence



Can you explain a bit more about these - how they work, where to buy etc?





Calliope said:


> You are right. Termites are attracted to moisture. That's why to come above ground they have to build galleries so they are never exposed to the open air. They even have to take liquids back to their nests to maintain a constant humidity in the nest. Outside this environment they die.
> 
> In dry weather they are naturally attracted to gardens which are regularly watered and these are often very close to the house. Once there, they are ingenious at finding an entry point to carry out their mission which is  to expedite the passage of dead and decaying timber back to the soil.
> 
> In nature they perform an essential function and they don't discriminate. The only way to protect your house is as Awg says is to get down and dirty, and be eternally vigilant. Try to think like a termite.



You're confirming that I've been the perfect host, Calliope.  Hope the little *****'s are grateful for my hospitality!!





sails said:


> That is horrible news, Julia. I certainly hope it can be repaired at a reasonable price.  I am guessing that insurance doesn't cover termite repairs?



No I don't think so, Sails.  Will check the insurance company's literature but it wouldn't really be reasonable to expect them to cover it.  Serves me right for not being more careful about frequent inspections, though the bloke today said they were not infrequently called to infestations where the property had been quite OK just a short time earlier, much less than a year.
Again, as awg suggests, this could be a result of imperfect inspections previously.


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## onetrack (4 March 2009)

The simple answer to termites (before they attack, of course) is a system known as ExTerra. Traps placed in the ground at several metre intervals around the house, filled with strips of their favorite tasty wood, show up any activity with regular checks. If termites are found, a non-toxic foam is placed in the traps, and it kills all the termites. End of problem, and no nasty pesticide residues. Check out their website. I installed the system 2 years ago, and I can assure you, it works.


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## Julia (4 March 2009)

onetrack said:


> The simple answer to termites (before they attack, of course) is a system known as ExTerra. Traps placed in the ground at several metre intervals around the house, filled with strips of their favorite tasty wood, show up any activity with regular checks. If termites are found, a non-toxic foam is placed in the traps, and it kills all the termites. End of problem, and no nasty pesticide residues. Check out their website. I installed the system 2 years ago, and I can assure you, it works.



Sounds great, onetrack - many thanks.
Anyone else used this?


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## Sir Osisofliver (5 March 2009)

Julia said:


> I have to say I'm more focused on eliminating termites than pleasing the EPA so have noted this suggestion.  Where would one get used sump oil?  A mechanical workshop?




Julia,

Do you really want to put an accelerant around your entire house?  Termites might be the least of your problems.

Sump oil is also the old wives tale of how to keep snakes out of your yard.  I have half an acre of forest at the back of my property and my silly silly neighbours at the back decided to pour sump oil along the fence line (On my side thank-you very much), to keep the nasty pythons away from their yappy little maltese terrier. A couple of weeks later and a stray spark from someone burning leaves in their backyard and half my forest went up in flames.  Most of the big trees survived, but all the undergrowth was reduced to ash. (After that I built a 9 foot stratco steel fence at the back).

Sir O


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## noirua (5 March 2009)

I've had no experience of treating termite invasions. However, I was told that mixing citrus oil with warm water and painting or spraying on surfaces did the trick for DIY treatment. About 1 eggcup full to about 4 litres of warm water.


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## Julia (5 March 2009)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Julia,
> 
> Do you really want to put an accelerant around your entire house?  Termites might be the least of your problems.
> 
> ...



Sir O, thank you indeed for pointing out my stupidity.  Of course I should have thought of that.  Don't suppose I'd have done it anyway as I'm not a 'do it yourself' type - feel a lot safer with professionals.   
Sorry to hear about your forest.  Don't suppose the fire at least gave the yappy terrier a bad case of smoke inhalation?

The barrier treatment is being done on Saturday - $1500 and supposed to last for five years, but annual inspection is mandatory.  Then I'll get some builders' quotes for the repairs.


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## Sir Osisofliver (5 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Sir O, thank you indeed for pointing out my stupidity.  Of course I should have thought of that.  Don't suppose I'd have done it anyway as I'm not a 'do it yourself' type - feel a lot safer with professionals.
> Sorry to hear about your forest.  Don't suppose the fire at least gave the yappy terrier a bad case of smoke inhalation?
> 
> The barrier treatment is being done on Saturday - $1500 and supposed to last for five years, but annual inspection is mandatory.  Then I'll get some builders' quotes for the repairs.




No Charge Julia 

The fire was a few years ago (all the undergrowth has come back) so I'm not emotionally scarred over it. The Maltese hasn't been eated by a python - yet.  Good luck with the Termite Problem.

Sir O


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## korrupt_1 (5 March 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> There are numerous issues with steel frame.
> 
> 1. Corrosion.
> 2. Fire.
> ...




Stan 101, formerly known as 'Stan 101'  great post... we just built and was offered steel frame as an option... we opted for timber instead with the Termimesh system installed... the decision was based on cost...

Kinda glad that we didnt do steel... after reading your list of issues with it.

My only concern is how effect is Termimesh anyways....

I guess it's better than nothing...


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## Stan 101 (5 March 2009)

korrupt_1 said:


> My only concern is how effect is Termimesh anyways....
> 
> I guess it's better than nothing...




Termimesh has been around a while now and it's principals are sound. My only issue with it (and it is just my opinion) is no ability to service the product. There is no guarantee it is installed correctly or hasn't been damaged during construction. That could be seen as being pedantic, though.

The more barriers to termites the better. It is a cost analysis that must be considered. Argh! mentioned it well earlier. If you never want a termite issue, build in solid concrete and have plastic furniture, then you'll be fine.

Termites can not be eradicated from your land. They will be there until that big shiny light bulb in the sky decides to turn itself off. Be vigilant in keeping garden beds away from the dwelling and as mentioned regular visual inspections will catch anything before infestation takes place.

Enjoy your new home and don't sweat the termites too much.

cheers,


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## noirua (5 March 2009)

noirua said:


> I've had no experience of treating termite invasions. However, I was told that mixing citrus oil with warm water and painting or spraying on surfaces did the trick for DIY treatment. About 1 eggcup full to about 4 litres of warm water.



Many years ago it was DIY treatment for most people and a blow torch, carefully used, did the trick for destroying termite nests.  In fact people put themselves out to continually check, but these days they rest on their laurels.
There are a few companies that offer protection and annual checks on monthly payments.  As it's 18 years since I had such a plan I doubt it is quite the same these days.
I feel sorry for people caught out, but paying premiums to protect your property is a must. So, Julia, sorry to have to say this, it's your own fault really - Good Luck anyway. Mind you, is this just for a topic of conversation, indeed I hope so?


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## Happy (6 March 2009)

I just wander how deep in ground termites are?

Can they go few metres deep into soil?


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## awg (6 March 2009)

Happy said:


> I just wander how deep in ground termites are?
> 
> Can they go few metres deep into soil?




mine had dug, down 4-5ft under the concrete footings, then built a tunnel up a brick wall to timber that had been left over from supporting a small suspended slab. It was very innacessible.

my understanding is they can form burrows hundreds of metres long,
dont know how deep 

took them 30yrs to get to it

my timber fences have been eaten in that time.

if u live anywhere near native trees, the termites are always present nearby


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## onetrack (6 March 2009)

There are hundreds of termite species in Australia, but only about 20 actually eat timber. Most of those 20 species rarely go below half a metre in the ground. There are a few species that go deep, up to 30 metres, but these are relatively uncommon. 
Regular water is what the termite species need, as numerous posters have already stated. They need water (or moisture) every 24 hrs at least, or they die. They will burrow down to get moisture if need be. Keep your gardens a metre away from house foundations. 

Be aware that some types of timber are to termites, like KFC is to kids; they will literally walk over hot coals to get to them. Timbers such as Oregon pine and all other untreated pine varieties; Karri; and most Australian eucalypts are all highly palatable termite fodder. 
If you have these timbers in your home, you need to be extra vigilant.

If you live in the Northern parts of Australia, you most likely have to combat the most voracious termite known to mankind - Mastotermes darwiniensis. 
These termites have been known to bore through concrete rail sleepers and chew tyres off parked trailers. When Wandoo sleepers were used on the first Iron Ore railways, Mastotermes darwiniensis chewed up the Wandoo sleepers like they were damp Radiata pine. All the Southern termites can't chew on Wandoo. Wandoo is so hard, that seasoned Wandoo will send off sparks from chain saw chains if you try to chainsaw it.

The Mastotermes darwiniensis need special attention. There is a new product called Termidore for them, and the active ingredient is Fipronil - a slow-acting poison. Unfortunately Fipronil is still one of the highly toxic compounds (to humans, fish, birdlife and the food  chain) used as a termite-killer.

The ingredient in the Requiem (Exterra) bait is chlorflurazon. This is a totally non-toxic chemical that destroys the termites ability to moult. Termites need to moult regularly, so destruction of their moulting process kills them.

As one last note - keep fruit trees well away from the house. The sweet fruit trees such as peaches, apples, oranges, mandarins and a range of others are like icecream to termites. They come straight up the centre of fruit trees and eventually kill them. Always check fruit trees for termite action. 

The advice about not leaving any loose wood in contact with the ground around the house is also good. If you need to store spare lengths of wood, put them in steel racks well above ground level - and clean up any wood heaps every year. 
Unfortunately, firewood supplies can often be a way that termites move in. If anyone ever delivers firewood with termites in it, tell them to take it away, pronto!!


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## Julia (6 March 2009)

noirua said:


> There are a few companies that offer protection and annual checks on monthly payments.  As it's 18 years since I had such a plan I doubt it is quite the same these days.



So how do you protect yourself from termites in the last 18 years?
I'm told much of their activity is underground and invisible until there is obvious damage.



> I feel sorry for people caught out, but paying premiums to protect your property is a must. So, Julia, sorry to have to say this, it's your own fault really



I'm entirely aware of that, Noirua and have already clearly acknowledged that I neglected to get another inspection done at 12 months after the previous one.  Thank you, however, for underlining the point.

Even annual inspections aren't any guarantee.  In the last couple of days I've been told of three houses where quite significant infestation was found (with damage) only a few months after inspection had declared everything to be fine.  The bloke doing the barrier treatment today said they can eat about a foot of wood in a very short time, I think he said about a week.



> - Good Luck anyway. Mind you, is this just for a topic of conversation, indeed I hope so?



Don't know what you mean "is this just for a topic of conversation?"
I started the thread in the hope of reminding anyone who had been as careless as I have to check when their inspections are due.

Have had a builder out today to quote for repairs - under $1000 which is much better than I'd feared.


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## Macquack (6 March 2009)

Julia said:


> Have had a builder out today to quote for repairs - under $1000 which is much better than I'd feared.




What is the builder actually doing for under $1000? Not much, I would guess.


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## Prospector (6 March 2009)

OK, confession time here.  Over the last 30 years we had an annual inspectors out three times, for our new house.  On the last inspection I was so disgusted with 'the lack of inspection' that I realised this was actually a pointless exercise and more a rort by the pest companies.  And the final straw was when the guy said the Inspection guaranteed nothing - just that termites were not present at the time of inspection.


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## Julia (6 March 2009)

Macquack said:


> What is the builder actually doing for under $1000? Not much, I would guess.



No, indeed not that much at all.  I'd thought all of the window frames were affected and would have to be completely removed and replaced.  But that's not the case and only four sections have to be cut out, replaced and painted.
Less than a day's work.





Prospector said:


> OK, confession time here.  Over the last 30 years we had an annual inspectors out three times, for our new house.  On the last inspection I was so disgusted with 'the lack of inspection' that I realised this was actually a pointless exercise and more a rort by the pest companies.  And the final straw was when the guy said the Inspection guaranteed nothing - just that termites were not present at the time of inspection.



Prospector, that doesn't surprise me at all.  The barrier protection which has been done today is 'guaranteed for five years'.  But they still say you need to have an annual inspection.  I've heard several stories in the past few days about an inspection having given a property the all clear and then only a couple of months later significant damage from termites being apparent.

I've been told they can do a lot of damage in a very short time.

There seem to be a few ASF members who know quite a bit about this subject.  Could any of you confirm that this is correct?  i.e. that a genuine inspection can detect no problem, but an infestation and damage can occur soon after?

I suppose all can be OK, and then an army of termites can move in, the female I'm told laying 30,000 eggs per day, and lay seige to a house.


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## noirua (7 March 2009)

Julia said:


> So how do you protect yourself from termites in the last 18 years?



 I doubt termites survive where I am, though they do have quite a lot of problems in France, not that far away.


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## Doris (7 March 2009)

Julia said:


> The barrier protection which has been done today is 'guaranteed for five years'.  But they still say you need to have an annual inspection.  I've heard several stories in the past few days about an inspection having given a property the all clear and then only a couple of months later significant damage from termites being apparent.
> 
> I've been told they can do a lot of damage in a very short time.
> Could any of you confirm that this is correct?  i.e. that a genuine inspection can detect no problem, but an infestation and damage can occur soon after?
> ...




I've had three companies in the past three years quote $2k to $2.5k to put a property border barrier on my house in the northern Gold Coast. The last said they'd come back each year and do a 'top up' for $500. I've abstained. 

Three years ago - annual inspection in December. In April I had a set of hardwood steps, down from a patio, replaced.  When the builder removed the old steps there were thousands of termites!  I called the termite man and he said they did not guarantee their work - just that there were none when they inspected!  They charged another $400 to come to kill them! He advised the builder to use treated pine rather than hardwood - with keyholes for a yearly poison top-up. So far so good.

The next year I used another company who said the same.  They all came back in 6 weeks to check for termites and after that, any inspection cost was $375+.  Treatment on top of this!

Julia, in mid January (annual inspection early December) I decided to remove ferns from along a pergola railing so I could re-paint it (freshen it up) as the pergola roof was being replaced. I was horrified when one section of the bottom 'plank' was paint only! (but grateful too, as the pergola runs the full length of the back of the house)  The palings are stained, treated pine and were fine.  This new (highly recommended) 'termite man' said it would have taken the termites two or three weeks at the most to eat this bottom horizontal section/plank of the railing. (technical term?)

They'd come up a tunnel from a neighbour's fence line - evidence on the retainer wall.  A hose had not been turned off and had a slow drip onto the ferns - I guess they had their tunnel nearby from the steps incident!

My house too is brick veneer and inside walls are of cyprus pine which termites don't like. But they all have put some poison there too.

Termites are always a constant threat.


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## Lantern (7 March 2009)

When I built my house up in northern NSW back in the mid 80's there was a granite boulder in the ground about three meters from the house. On this boulder was a sliver of granite that I eventually jammed a crowbar into with the intention of breaking it off for use as a step into my shower. Imagine the feeling when after breaking it off I discovered thousands of ternites inbetween the sliver and the main part of the boulder. And yes they were "etching" away at the softer parts of the granite.


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## Julia (7 March 2009)

Doris and Lantern:  thanks for your comments.   I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with a problem with the damn things.

I was talking with someone today who had had regular 12 monthly inspections on a rental she owns, always pronounced OK, then suddenly there was a hole in the ceiling.   She had to replace the ceiling throughout the house.

Maybe we should get out of the stockmarket and into a pest control business.


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## David123 (2 April 2009)

I have a license to kill termites, if you want some advice PM me the situation you have and i will advise you to Australian stardards. When it comes to termites theres alot of shonks..So my advise is be ALARMED!


David


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## Farencue (3 April 2009)

I own a pest control business.  In over 5 years we have not had a complaint about our prices (we are independent and not a ripoff franchise) or our service.  Im happy to share what our company does to comply with Australian Standards.  In fact if we dont comply, our insurance is null and void.

First rule as a consumer: check what the inspection actually is.  We offer a visual termite inspection.  Thats the crux of it - it is visual. Ordinary human beings do not have xray vision to see inside walls, boulders or anything else.  Some inspectors use thermal cameras to detect the heat of the termites. If our inspectors suspect some kind of activity in the walls we will need the owner to give permission IN WRITING for walls etc to be gouged to check. 
During a visual inspection we inspect the roof void, interior & exterior walls, subfloor if you have one, fences & grounds.  We charge less than $200 for the average house.  You will get a letter outlining live termites found, old damage found, risks & recommendations.  Whether you decide to do anything is up to you, just because we inspected your house doesnt mean you wont get termites further down the track. For a prepurchase inspection which is $250 you get the paperwork required by your bank and/or solicitor - it is a legal document for which we are held liable.

It is true that the inspection is valid AT THE DATE OF INSPECTION.  If you dont have physical or chemical barriers and your house is inspected today what on earth makes you think termites wont set up a nest tomorrow and start munching on your house?  The inspectors say so? Why would you blame an inspector, he cant give you a guarantee that termites wont move in if you have no protection.  He should however be able to point out all the risk areas around your home and make recommendations to reduce the risk of termite attack.  We usually encourage our clients to have inspections every 12 months for the average property - a termite riddled place that has been fixed up we would probably recommend every 6 months until we were sure 12 monthly would suffice without risk to the home.

What types of protection?  New homes are built with termite resistant materials and underslab reticulation, older homes are protected with chemicals or physical barriers are installed by builders - some people replace their homes' wooden stumps with steel ones for example.  Are your ant caps if you have them, still doing the job or have they rusted away?

Our inspectors EDUCATE homeowners on what physical signs to look for, we give recommendations to reduce the risk of termite attack etc...  The best thing YOU can do as a homeowner is get educated.  A decent inspector will assist you to maintain your home to deter termites.  A shonky one will make it all seem a mystery and just want your money.

Yes a chemical barrier needs to be inspected every 12 months to ensure it has not been breached.  We do not give a guarantee of how long the barrier will last as such,  how can we, we dont manufacture the chemicals used.  The termiticide we use has a chemical lifespan of 8 years and our clients are made aware of that.  Hopefully they will get 8 years. We also pay heavily to carry termite insurance in case an ineffective batch of chemicals is used in a barrier.  It is important to check the barrier every 12 months.

Most inspections do not specifically look for drywood termites, but usually our experienced inspectors will find these during an inspection.  Drywood termites do not need moisture as do other species, they also live in very small colonies making them harder to detect.  If you have drywoods in your timber floor you will need a builder to replace the timbers. Chemical treatment is ineffective for drywoods.  Other termite species need moisture, so you would not have a leaking tap against the building for example.  That would be inviting trouble. Here are some other tips: use only treated timber in your landscaping, do not have garden rubbish lying in your yard or loose timber, store timber on corrugated iron or off the ground, make sure any water outlets are directed away from the house (eg hotwater), make sure there are no water leaks around, keep any weepholes clear, do not have heavy foliage against your house and maintain a 75mm clearance around the perimeter of your house at all times.

Forget about expensive termite monitoring systems that you pay big money for and have to have inspected every 3 months for an expensive fee, throwing some cardboard on the ground is just as an effective monitor.
Dont believe anyone that wants to sell you a "natural" termite system.  We had an old couple phone very distressed because they spent thousands on "the natural way" only to have their house eaten out later.  No such thing, only termiticide will kill them, not tea tree or citrus oil or some such rubbish.

Its a shame that some pest controllers give the rest of us a bad name, we pride ourselves on our reasonable prices and helpful service.  We make it our mission to educate you to look after your home, which of course does not allow us to rip people off.  It is very empowering for clients to be in control of their own assets rather than complain about being ripped off.  We make our money through word of mouth referrals because of our company philosophy.

If you would like any more info please ask, I dont mind sharing because Australia is riddled with termites, there will always be termites for us to find and treat in peoples homes and gardens, we wont run out of work.  Vigilance is the best thing for the homeowner to employ against the little buggers.


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## Julia (3 April 2009)

Farencue, thank you for helpful comments which are appreciated.

I'm happy with the service I've had - it was exactly as you have described you provide plus they have a 'movement detector' device which they hold against the walls.  I don't know if this is a gimmick or whether it genuinely demonstrates movement.

You say the perimeter barrier should be checked every year?   I have diaried for annual inspection but could you describe actually how the barrier is checked?
There are holes drilled in all the paving around the house, the termiticide injected, and then these have been plugged.  Hard to see how you would inspect this or rather what you would or wouldn't expect to see.


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## Farencue (3 April 2009)

Hi Julia
Barrier check means that the inspector will look for any evidence of termite activity, if evidence is found it means the barrier has been breached.  Thats why and also when the inspector needs insurance.


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## David123 (3 April 2009)

Gday Farencue, Hope business is going well for! Because ours is! fixing stuff ups from guys who like using chemical barriers!..

i Shall meet you in three years Julie, did the pesti locate a nest? did he put a sticker in the meter box? i just laugh at pesti's who never kill a nest or have tried to flood it with chemical and the termites have moved on cause they scared them off! And business will always be good for pesti's who never kill the nest cause they attack next door and the colony just keeps getting bigger!

Anyway its no wonder theres more termites then ever lol...cause thats all people think about is barriers...try a system of colony elimination! and i dont know where the nest is! BUT guess who does?!

Cheers David


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## Farencue (3 April 2009)

You assume far too much David.  Anyone worth their "licence to kill" will locate the nest.
And I am not a guy.


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## inenigma (4 April 2009)

We could always go back to living in caves....

Some might just have to do that with the GFC and all.....


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