# Dear leader Kim Jung II



## Bobby (6 July 2006)

This demi-God who has being profiled as a malignant narcissist is screaming to to world again - Look at me LOOK at me !!

 As this being a public forum & can be monitored by Nth Korea you may care to comment to the dear leader   

Bob.


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## visual (6 July 2006)

Bobby,hes not saying look at me,
He is saying LOOK AT MOI ,LOOK AT MOI,in his best Kath and Kim impersonation


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## Sean K (6 July 2006)

I love his little outfits. Nice. 

I bet you he's got a closet like Arnold in The Last Acton Hero. Just racks of green safari suits.

I wonder if he's got a little offspring like Dr Evil's 'mini me'. That would have to be a 'mini, mini me'. Can't you just see it!


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## Jay-684 (6 July 2006)

OH HEWRO!

if this escalates what impact could this have on the ASX?


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## visual (6 July 2006)

yesterday I wouldve said not much,but seeing that other people are taking this miniature seriously I`m not so sure.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (6 July 2006)

Being in Japan I would be a little bit more concerned than you back home. Over here we have constant coverage of the weirdo. 

I personally believe the military is making the decisions and has been for some time. It goes to show that you can`t deal with them, broken 1994 agreement by them, now the agreement not to test misiles has been broken. 

We could let his regeme continue, only to see it continue supplying other abortion countries with weapons - Burma for example. Which would see a worse and multiplied problem in the future. Venezuela is arming and seems to be coalitioning with any country opposed to the US, including parts of Latin America. There are tough times ahead if these nations continue to go unfettered.

Or, we can take action now and solve a future problem.

I choose the latter.


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## Julia (6 July 2006)

I'm not trying to defend this nation or its leader, but I believe much could be solved if the US would simply agree to have one on one talks with North Korea.
Their refusal to do so appears to understandably frustrate N. Korea, who then seems to escalate things, viz these tests, in order to up the ante in the hope of driving the US to negotiate with them directly.

Julia


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## Sean K (6 July 2006)

Nth Korea is probably one of the few coutries around the world that I'd support an armed intervention by an external force. Revolution normally has to occurr internally to succeed, but in this case there is no possibility for the masses to organise. The dictatorship (or whatever it is) seems to be too entrenched.


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## robert toms (6 July 2006)

Dear Julia...I think that you are around the mark...If the schoolyard bully keeps on threatening ,Kim will use any strategy at his disposal to keep him at bay...if this means shooting off a few rockets,he will do so.I am sure that Kim is very paranoid after all the threats over the years.If you remember ,the Bush mob tried to set the scene for an attack on North Korea before they decided on the much easier Iraqi proposition.There is not much common sense around,especially with the Bush administration.The North Koreans have been preparing for an attack from wherever for a long,long time.
Having said that ,if I were Japanese I would be worried a few of these missiles may go astray..too close for comfort!


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## It's Snake Pliskin (6 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to defend this nation or its leader, but I believe much could be solved if the US would simply agree to have one on one talks with North Korea.
> Their refusal to do so appears to understandably frustrate N. Korea, who then seems to escalate things, viz these tests, in order to up the ante in the hope of driving the US to negotiate with them directly.
> 
> Julia




It`s important to understand the Korean psyche too. Go out with a big bang is not an uncommon thought for them. 

They love playing brinkmanship and may get more than they can ever imagine.

I agree that the US needs to do more, but hypocrites galore when it came to Iraq. (not you Julia)


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## YOUNG_TRADER (6 July 2006)

Jay-684 said:
			
		

> OH HEWRO!




ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

Don't mess with Kim he's got Alec Baldwin and the others behind him, what were the called in the movie 'FAGS'


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## It's Snake Pliskin (6 July 2006)

> Having said that ,if I were Japanese I would be worried a few of these missiles may go astray..too close for comfort!




I assure you Robert Toms, if they attack Japan all hell will break lose. Asians are more emotional than westerners. The Japanese are becoming more and more nationalistic, 1930`s scary stuff. They are extremely loyal to a cause, forget the tourists you see in Aus or when you visit for a holiday. Get to know them through business and daily life and it really shocks the hell out of you how different and fanatical they can be; not necessarily in a negative tone though.

The common topic of converstion over here is Kim Jong Il, even when he isn`t letting off fire crackers; one fizzled.


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## Bobby (6 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> The common topic of converstion over here is Kim Jong Il, even when he isn`t letting off fire crackers; one fizzled.



 Hullo Snake,

With Japan having huge economic might, do you feel there may be a change to their constitution in order to built a powerful military offensive capability ?

Bob.


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## cuttlefish (6 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Nth Korea is probably one of the few coutries around the world that I'd support an armed intervention by an external force.




Don't know who's going to do that though - the US are flat out sorting Iraq out - and Iraq's military were little than a disorganised rabble and they had virtually no weapons due to years of sanctions and weapons inspections.  

By comparison North Korea seems to have a very well disciplined and organised military under very tight state control, and working on a potentially scary arsenal of weapons by the sounds of it.


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## Sean K (6 July 2006)

You're right Cuttlefish, a much more difficult prospect. If it really came to a stouch, I think you'd find Japan changing their constituton pretty quick to assist. I think the tactic would be to bomb them into submission, or until they were sufficiently weakened for Sth Korea to send in their million or so soldiers to clean them up.

I doubt we'd ever get to this point though. Too much death. 

China wouldn't allow it either.  

That is, unless they actually fired one of their rockets into Japan, or Sth Korea. Gloves off then I'd say. China would have to stand back and watch.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (6 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hullo Snake,
> 
> With Japan having huge economic might, do you feel there may be a change to their constitution in order to built a powerful military offensive capability ?
> 
> Bob.




Bobby,

The politicians have been debating that for some time now. I think, from memory, America has encouraged this. Japan could be allowed legally in the coming years to have a military instead of a self defence force. The same you might think, but the psychology is different and of course the law.

If Japan wanted to do what Kim Jong Il is doing, they would be in a position to build 100`s of nukes a year. They have the capacity and technology, however they are abiding by the law at this stage.

It is concerning to read how the foreign minister of Japan was connected to a mine that used Aussie slave labour in WW2. His comments of late have been a bit concerning. 

Here`s an article: http://kerrycollison.net/index.php?/archives/2617-Japans-shame.html

Enjoy
Snake


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## visual (6 July 2006)

But do you guys really think that their soldiers regardless of how well equipped they are would really fight,or do you think they would give up at the first sign of an allied soldier.Same as the Iraqis. Much of N,Korea is starving anyway and much of its population is always trying to escape where at least theres food.Probably the true danger would come from China ,but will China endanger its own economy to fight with Korea.Not yet I dont think.


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## mista200 (6 July 2006)

Maybe they wouldn't have fired the missiles if George Bush hadn't included N korea in the axis of evil..


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## rederob (6 July 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> Maybe they wouldn't have fired the missiles if George Bush hadn't included N korea in the axis of evil..



I could have sworn it was the taxis of evil......

http://www.lot49.com/2002/04/bush_to_restate_the_union.shtml


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## wayneL (6 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> But do you guys really think that their soldiers regardless of how well equipped they are would really fight,or do you think they would give up at the first sign of an allied soldier.Same as the Iraqis. Much of N,Korea is starving anyway and much of its population is always trying to escape where at least theres food.Probably the true danger would come from China ,but will China endanger its own economy to fight with Korea.Not yet I dont think.




The North Koreans are a "whole 'nuther bowl of wax" imo. The only way the yanks would defeat them is to turn the whole country to toast.


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## Bobby (6 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Bobby,
> 
> 
> It is concerning to read how the foreign minister of Japan was connected to a mine that used Aussie slave labour in WW2. His comments of late have been a bit concerning.
> ...



 Thanks for the reply Snake,

I do agree with you about Japans capacity for rearming.
China would not let Nth Korea be the catalyst for this to happen .
Therefore China must feel the heat from this as well .

Read the article regarding Japans foreign minister Taro Aso, gee this bloke a intransigent !

Keep safe
Bob.


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## sam76 (6 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> I assure you Robert Toms, if they attack Japan all hell will break lose. Asians are more emotional than westerners. The Japanese are becoming more and more nationalistic, 1930`s scary stuff. They are extremely loyal to a cause, forget the tourists you see in Aus or when you visit for a holiday. Get to know them through business and daily life and it really shocks the hell out of you how different and fanatical they can be; not necessarily in a negative tone though.
> 
> The common topic of converstion over here is Kim Jong Il, even when he isn`t letting off fire crackers; one fizzled.




I agreee 100% Snake. I lived in Japan for four years (actually I left Aust the month when this all started with Nth. Korea Oct 02)

Nationalism is pretty crazy in Japan - you see guys (usually assosiated with Yakuza) standing on top of blacked out buses with makeshift missiles atrapped to the roof screaming that Japanese are rightful Asian leaders and should be dictating the rest of Asia.

On the other hand, many of the Japanese youth don't have the same passion towards nationlaism that their folks and grand folks did.   just have a look at the "ganguro" culture! (Snake, you know what I mean here)

suimasen m(-_-)m (a little japanese person bowing!)


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## Bobby (6 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> The North Koreans are a "whole 'nuther bowl of wax" imo. The only way the yanks would defeat them is to turn the whole country to toast.



WayneL Hullo,

I don't think your a casuist, your above post is disturbing, care to add some detail to it ?

Bob.


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## wayneL (6 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> WayneL Hullo,
> 
> I don't think your a casuist, your above post is disturbing, care to add some detail to it ?
> 
> Bob.




"casuist" That had me surrying to the dictionary  lol

Hypothetically, if the US decided to attack NK, (I do not support such a move, but think the US is capable of considering an attack... or goad them into attacking the US, or Japan) I think it would be a folly to invade. 

I think the N Koreans would be a million times more difficult than the Iraqis, particularly considering the terrain. To invade would be an absolute folly. The yanks would suffer tremendous casualties even if they win; which I doubt they could do with a ground war.

The only way they could "deal" with N. Korea is with massive... and I mean massive arial bombardment with use of nukes probable.

Confrontation with Korea would be the scenario straight from hell (metaphorically speaking) with rapid escalation an absolute certainty.

Far better for the two lunatics to sit down and have a chat over a crack pipe  or two ... they might find they have a great deal in common.  

FWIW I think the US is far more dangerous than NK.


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## Julia (6 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> The North Koreans are a "whole 'nuther bowl of wax" imo. The only way the yanks would defeat them is to turn the whole country to toast.




Wayne

Despite your somewhat unpleasant imagery, I have to agree.  I think it would be nukes or nothing.

Julia


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## visual (6 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> "casuist" That had me surrying to the dictionary  lol
> 
> Hypothetically, if the US decided to attack NK, (I do not support such a move, but think the US is capable of considering an attack... or goad them into attacking the US, or Japan) I think it would be a folly to invade.
> 
> ...




Wayne ,all this was said about the Iraq war,and now the only way they are keeping the insurgency going is by other people who cant keep their noses out.Personally I doubt the N.Koreans would have a huge interest in fighting a war for a moron like the miniature one.


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## Bobby (6 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> "casuist" That had me surrying to the dictionary  lol
> 
> Hypothetically, if the US decided to attack NK, (I do not support such a move, but think the US is capable of considering an attack... or goad them into attacking the US, or Japan) I think it would be a folly to invade.
> 
> ...



Wayne ,

Its not going to happen.
 Nth Korea is such an improverished nation that this is a PLAY to get attention, they want hard Cash deals from the west.

This time they have over played their cards ( Japan rearming possibility ) China will not let NK insert this into reality.

Your two last comments- about these two smoking crack   I think was just your  joke ?
As was your statment about the US being more dangerous.

Regards Bob.
Bob.


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## cuttlefish (6 July 2006)

I agree with Wayne - Iraq and North Korea are enormously different situations.  

The fact the US botched the Iraq job so badly has played straight into North Korea's hands - its shown that they aren't anywhere near as powerful and capable as the world thought they were. Remember when people were debating whether it would take a week vs a month to 'win' the war - and those that thought it would take a month were considered pessimists. Well look where we are now.  

Iraq basically had no weapons (there were weapons inspections and sanctions for 10 years).  Iraq's army were no more than minimally trained rabble.

You only need to watch a North Korean army regiment marching to see the difference - they're like a machine - these people are trained and brainwashed from a young age to devote their whole being to the communist cause.  You'd have been flat out getting an Iraqi army regiment to walk in the same direction together.


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## wayneL (6 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Your two last comments- about these two smoking crack   I think was just your  joke ?
> As was your statment about the US being more dangerous.
> 
> Regards Bob.
> Bob.




I hope you're right

Regarding the crack: Yes a joke, but still believe they have a lot in common.
Regarding the US: No joke. The most dangerous country on the planet atm.


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## Bobby (6 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I hope you're right
> 
> Regarding the crack: Yes a joke, but still believe they have a lot in common.
> Regarding the US: No joke. The most dangerous country on the planet atm.



Wayne,

I find your statement on the  U.S.A  increduious    So you think its the most dangerous country on earth ? )  please confirm this , as it may be a typo ?
I suggest you may have ment something else ?

Bob.


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## doctorj (6 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Regarding the US: No joke. The most dangerous country on the planet



No doubt about that in my mind.

Who has the most nuclear weapons?
Who has the biggest military budget?
Who has shown there willing to instigate attacks against countries around the world in recent years?*
Which country has the most efficient propaganda delivery systems?#

*Whether or not you agree with the reasons given for the  invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq1 and Iraq2 the point remains the same.
# For a long time nations have used the media to spread propaganda - through advertisements, television programming, the news etc etc.  I haven't got the stats to back it up, but I'm quite happy to go out on a limb and say that Americans watch more TV per day on average than just about any other country in the world.  Fox et al do the rest.


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## wayneL (6 July 2006)

doctorj said:
			
		

> No doubt about that in my mind.
> 
> Who has the most nuclear weapons?
> Who has the biggest military budget?
> ...




...and which country is happy to splatter nuclear waste all over the place in the Middle East, Serbia.... and wherever else they decide to invade next.


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## Bobby (7 July 2006)

After reading all posts on the thread there are some who think that using Nukes may be the answer to Nth Koreas brinkmanship.

No the answer is just pure isolation, but China must come on board.

A total blackban by all , repeat *TOTAL* .

No more good grog & porno movies for Kim   

Bob.


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## wayneL (7 July 2006)

Does this ring any bells?



			
				Hermann Goering said:
			
		

> "...of course the people don't want war.... But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship ...the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country"


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## visual (7 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Does this ring any bells?




Ye but Wayne under those circumstances the fighting always seems to lack that something,you know,vigour,or enthusiasm. Anyway thats the feeling I get,could be wrong. Hope not.


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## cuttlefish (7 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Ye but Wayne under those circumstances the fighting always seems to lack that something,you know,vigour,or enthusiasm. Anyway thats the feeling I get,could be wrong. Hope not.




If you look at US soldiers - a lot of them aren't particularly committed to fighting either when it comes to the crunch. They're mostly used to war by remote control.  It only takes a relatively small number of American casualties in a war for US leaders to start to lose support of the US people, and a lot of goodwill has been exhausted as a result of the Iraq conflict.  (which before it started everyone was told would be over in a week to a month max).


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## visual (7 July 2006)

sorry,getting out of this argument,your guys scare me.Much strength to the free world.


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## Sean K (7 July 2006)

We need to remember that if the US goes to war with NK then we are in it too. We have certain military options as part of our stategic planning which dictates we deploy certain assets in support of the US in a war against NK. It's much more than just sending a handful of SASR for sneak and peak ops too. We'd get mighty bloody in this one. Let's hope it doesn't happen.


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## rub92me (7 July 2006)

To wayneL's point about the USA being the most dangerous, I'd recommend to read some of Noam Chomsky's articles and books. Scary eye-opening stuff indeed. You will never consider the USA as the good guys again after seeing the publicly available (but not widely published) facts...


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## nelly (7 July 2006)

_Regarding the US: No joke. The most dangerous country on the planet atm.  _ 
And IMO the most under-handed......

_Far better for the two lunatics to sit down and have a chat over a crack pipe or two ... they might find they have a great deal in common.  _ 
They've probably done that already....Bush would have bought the crack!

_For a long time nations have used the media to spread propaganda - through advertisements, television programming, the news etc etc. I haven't got the stats to back it up, but I'm quite happy to go out on a limb and say that Americans watch more TV per day on average than just about any other country in the world. Fox et al do the rest._
America is very adept in regards propaganda......decades of practice......re cold war, before and after the wall........etc.....practise makes perfect.....
Yes atm the most dangerous... .for their arrogance alone.....be very scared children...be very scared.  
Don't feel like signing off using cheers now.


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## wayneL (7 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Much strength to the free world.




Once upon a time we used to fight others to protect our freedom.

Now it appears that if we want freedom, we may have fight our own governments.

My fear is that by the time enough people realise this, it may be too late.

Coming to a western country near you:

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/whyNot.php


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## visual (7 July 2006)

Wayne, I would like to request that when you quote me you do so,fully,or as truthfully as possible.

What I in fact said is "sorry,getting out of this argument,your guys scare me.Much strength to the free world. "

I meant your anarchistic comments,think what you will, this is my opinion.
And again I inform you I do not need to be educated to your way of thinking,


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## wayneL (8 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Wayne, I would like to request that when you quote me you do so,fully,or as truthfully as possible.
> 
> What I in fact said is "sorry,getting out of this argument,your guys scare me.Much strength to the free world. "
> 
> ...




Dear Visual,

When I quoted you there, it was not meant to reflect on, or insult you. If you have taken it that way, I apologise.

I do like you, so fiery! A dinner party would be great fun. But I must likewise take exception to being refered to as an anarchist. Nothing could be further from the truth. A tad idealistic perhaps, but an anarchist? Never!

But I hope folks don't dismiss some of the things I post just because it is uncomfortable to contemplate. Believe me, I used to be a very patriotic American. It was devastating and painful to come to the realisation I have.

Peace!


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## visual (8 July 2006)

Dear Wayne,
please allow me the luxury of finding out for myself what you found out for yourself.When I used the word anarchistic,I clearly said that it was simply my opinion,not that you were an anarchist.And as for your other opinion of me,thanks Wayne I will take that as a compliment althought me thinks that its far from a compliment.
Much love ,
Visual


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## wayneL (8 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Dear Wayne,
> please allow me the luxury of finding out for myself what you found out for yourself.When I used the word anarchistic,I clearly said that it was simply my opinion,not that you were an anarchist.And as for your other opinion of me,thanks Wayne I will take that as a compliment althought me thinks that its far from a compliment.
> Much love ,
> Visual




No, it was a genuine compliment. I like people who say what they think, you aways know where they stand. Mrs L speaks her mind too.. and I married her  

Cheers


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## visual (8 July 2006)

Wayne are you asking to marry me?  : no just joking : 
ok,then thanks for the compliment


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## doctorj (8 July 2006)

Before I start this, I want to point out that I too have a lot of respect for people that stand by their convictions.

I found Visual's use of the word "anarchist" to be most interesting and I think it is part of the reason the world is the way it is.

The essence of the Democratic Utopia is that anyone can challenge the status quo.  Anyone, man, woman, rich, poor, educated or otherwise can stand up and say what s/he thinks could be done better without fear of persecution.  The greater the enfranchised population, the stronger the push towards accountability and excellence in our leaders.  

These people that are patriotic enough to take the time to critically review what's been spoon fed them in the media and ultimately form their own opinions should not be labelled anarchists if they don't happen to agree with the government of the day but patriots in the truest sense of the word.  The catch-all that is anarchists is such an off-handed and disrespectful way to respond to people that put forward an opinion.

To become a better country and a better world we need more people taking the time to be informed and involved in current affairs.  It's not anarchy, its a democracy.  When people can't challenge the status quo (or don't) then it'd be more accurately a dictatorship.


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## visual (8 July 2006)

doctorj said:
			
		

> what's been spoon fed them in the media and ultimately form their own opinions should not be labelled anarchists if they don't happen to agree with the government of the day but patriots in the truest sense of the word.  The catch-all that is anarchists is such an off-handed and disrespectful way to respond to people that put forward an opinion.



DoctorJ,and this is your opinion!
as you said in a democracy we all are free to have opinions,
some crazy things have been said on this thread,however I look around and dont really see too much that I dont like,we are free to vote,free to protest,free to call the police if there is indeed something that needs attenting to by them,free to work or not,education is available to all,medical services are available to all,yes we can debate its quality but no one tells us if we can use these services on the grounds of our religion,colour or gender.
If we dont like the government we can change it.
I see nothing dangerous there.
To say that we are going by the way of other countries indeed dictatorships  is crazy,and this is my opinion.
Nothing disrespectful there I`m afraid.


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## visual (8 July 2006)

doctorj said:
			
		

> No doubt about that in my mind.
> 
> Who has the most nuclear weapons?
> Who has the biggest military budget?
> ...




would you say that propoganda delivered through a sheik,or a koranic school is less dangerous?


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## 3 veiws of a secret (8 July 2006)

I'm sorry I must agree with what Wayne L says re: comments on USA. Over time I used to think in my childhood that the sun shone brightly out of the American's administration rectum. Like wine I have aged, possibly wiser then back then. But irrespective of what your inclinations are to world politics the most over-riding factor is that America supports  "America the brave" workforce with an industry pushed through congress with money spent on a conveyor belt thats perpetually re-arming itself. For America to stop this conveyor belt would be politically silly, the power of the day would lose the vote. Too many suckers connected to the war machine. So ! USSR one decade, Panama, Somalia another, just so happens Bin Laden does the Americans a favour to veto more spending on the arms race,its so evident its masked. Because everybody gets a few cents out of this war industry.
It's much better that America can drag the issues with the Middle East or the Palestine issue,why nuke N Korea,thats far to quick a job, bad publicity,and if the wind blows towards California -holy SHUCKS! Arnorld will save the world.
For a country to go to war it has to think whats in it for the nation.....why on earth would America nuke N Korea, so it can decontaminate the country latter?...........
I was in Florida October 2003 on the main freeway/highway heading north to Sandford, I saw a hotel with its roof daubed in white paint "God Bless George ,and Jeb Bush" ....gee no wonder I felt unsecure, brainwashed or otherwise, America is a scary place if they are not reminded that the UN still exists -ask John Hicks,he still stuck in an echo chamber!.........
Like the North Korean guy, he is just as worried about the world as we are. Democracy oh yeah,its just a word in some places....go to Congo!!,even try Sudan,hmmm Kuwait ???? Enough banter ............taxi driver has to drive the kids across melbourne over the weekend!


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## visual (8 July 2006)

3 views,
you mean David Hicks? right
I feel so good when the preacher is as well informed as you.
No offence,


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## Sean K (8 July 2006)

David Kicks is probably where he should be. If he was still in Afganistan he'd be fighting against Australians. If you had a son or daughter in Afganistan he'd be shooting at them. Or wanting to cut their heads off.... 

Curious to know opinions on what you believe the route cause of Radical Islam and US hatred around the world is? Or, if they are seperate issues. I've beed trying to work this one out myself for a while.

Is the US actually to blame for the imperialistic way they have spread their tenticles around the globe, trying to dominate the world with their own cultural point of view. 

Or, is it ingrained in the culture of Islam: To fight against what is seen to be opressive, crusading Christianity. (and Judaism - they were the first invaders)

Or, is it a feeling of jealousy towards the West and the wealth we have. Manifesting itself in a deap seeded hatred?

Slightly off the NK point but related in regards to how to fix these global, geopolitical issues. Lets get to the cause, not just treat the symptoms.


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## 3 veiws of a secret (8 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> 3 views,
> you mean David Hicks? right
> I feel so good when the preacher is as well informed as you.
> No offence,




Visual your correct partially,and I'm too thick skinned to take offence.  I was so rushed I didn't proofread my epitaph,or have time to scroll to see if it was posted....as they say, no future in hanging around!
Where you incorrect is that I'm not that well informed, just utterly forgetful !

Kennas ....I totally understand your points of view, but I for one don't have the right answers for what your trying to say, the Statue of Liberty, might overlook Manhattan, but if I was French, I wonder if it should be shifted to the Getty Museum instead.....or......errrr possibly near Cuba!
But I do get peeved when the odd redneck thinks the American foreign policy is the glowing beacon for the west. It will take 2 presidents to sort out Bush's (or is it  Bushes)  ways. As for David (or John) Hicks,I would love to see Robert Fisk interveiw him when he is immediately released. 
On matters of North Korea, its a diabolical situation,heaven knows how that country exists alongside Burma! ...just to name a few countries.
Do you think Mr Virgin himself  Richard Branson will use N Korean rockets to fly me to the dark side of the moon?


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## visual (8 July 2006)

3 veiws of a secret said:
			
		

> Visual your correct partially,and I'm too thick skinned to take offence.  I was so rushed I didn't proofread my epitaph,or have time to scroll to see if it was posted....as they say, no future in hanging around!
> Where you incorrect is that I'm not that well informed, just utterly forgetful !
> 
> Kennas ....I totally understand your points of view, but I for one don't have the right answers for what your trying to say, the Statue of Liberty, might overlook Manhattan, but if I was French, I wonder if it should be shifted to the Getty Museum instead.....or......errrr possibly near Cuba!
> ...




Robert Fisk,hei!!!!!!!!!good old Robbie,last time I saw him interviewed he couldnt keep his answers straight,right loony,if you ask me.
Anyway 3 views glad you have a sense of humour. :


----------



## rederob (8 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> David Kicks is probably where he should be. If he was still in Afganistan he'd be fighting against Australians. If you had a son or daughter in Afganistan he'd be shooting at them. Or wanting to cut their heads off....
> 
> Curious to know opinions on what you believe the route cause of Radical Islam and US hatred around the world is? Or, if they are seperate issues. I've beed trying to work this one out myself for a while.
> 
> Is the US actually to blame for the imperialistic way they have spread their tenticles around the globe, trying to dominate the world with their own cultural point of view.



Kennas
Hicks was being trained to fight against India over Kashmir - a disputed province that has suffered several wars. Your other views on Hicks have no credence.
Radical Islam is about the same as radical Christianity - have a chat to the protestants in Northern Island; Rev Ian Paisley would be a good start.
The US has no imperialistic credentials to speak of: As good capitalists they bought Alaska from the Russians!
They do see themselves as the "world police" nowadays, having deliberately sidelined the UN so they can go about attacking "terrorists" anywhere and everywhere.  Apart from Clinton who had the balls to attach Milosovic, the US otherwise avoids world conflict situations such as presently exist in Sudan's Dafour region, where thousands continue to die and be killed each month.
The separate issue of US cultural domination is interesting.  Rather than the US have any part in its spread, it is the "wannabes" across the globe (including Oz) that latch onto every fashion and fad they see - wasn't the "home boy" gear a sight to behold!
I like Americans,  
I think their government is led poorly, and their foreign policy morally bankrupt.


----------



## Sean K (8 July 2006)

rederob, 

There's no oil in the Sudan, so no need to go there, like there was no need to go to Rwanda. Have you seen Syriana? Good flick. 

I think I agree with your comparison with Northern Island but I don't know enough about the history of the place to make comment. You're comparing Britains occupation of Northern Island to American companies owning vast traces of land and resources in foreign countires? Or, just religious cult v religious cult? 

Home boy fashion, what a disaster. 

I'm not sure if I like Americans generally. Too nationaistic and self absorbed. There are 14 characteristics of fascism and the good old US of A displays all of them.


----------



## Sean K (8 July 2006)

Oh, and sorry I didn't know that Hicks was been trained to fight against India. Really? Did he tell you that?

You're supporting the Taliban? Good dudes the Taliban, I'd be joining up to fight for their cause any day.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (8 July 2006)

People like America when they help out, but hate them when they don`t.

Tells a lot about human nature.

Lets just be grateful that we have our lifestyles and realise that some bad brings a lot of good - it`s up to you how you perceive that.

Greens: ...would have all species overpopulating with no strategy for survival of the human race.
Religions: would love to kill and control - based on race too.
Anarchists: would love to just tear up society.
Pacifists: would give murderers and rapists 5000 chances.
Political correctness: is insane and cowardly in all of its intention.
Despots: would deny the masses their basic human rights.
...on and on.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (8 July 2006)

> By comparison North Korea seems to have a very well disciplined and organised military under very tight state control, and working on a potentially scary arsenal of weapons by the sounds of it.




NK`s weaponry is Tandy electronic quality. No match for any western military. They have a million troops active! Sure, formidable, but morale is low and any shock and awe from highly advanced weapons would be the telling factor. And then there is Sth Korea with its modern military. A ground war will be lost by the NTH that is for sure. No nukes required. However, the initial days of the war would see extensive damage in Japan and Soeul Korea.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (8 July 2006)

sam76 said:
			
		

> On the other hand, many of the Japanese youth don't have the same passion towards nationlaism that their folks and grand folks did.   just have a look at the "ganguro" culture! (Snake, you know what I mean here)
> 
> suimasen m(-_-)m (a little japanese person bowing!)




Yes those girls are trashy indeed.

eeeeeehhhhhhhhh, sou nan desu ka.  

Today I saw one of those black busses with two huge Japanese flags flying off the back of it. Scary!


----------



## rederob (8 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> rederob,
> There's no oil in the Sudan, so no need to go there, like there was no need to go to Rwanda. Have you seen Syriana? Good flick.



kennas
Seek oil in Sudan and you will find it: Not only is it there, the Chinese have beaten the Americans to it.
That's indeed why the Americans are going lightly, so you might need a rethink!


----------



## 3 veiws of a secret (8 July 2006)

Kennas ......I'm finding this thread rather interesting ......Just thought,as you've not been to Northern Ireland,there's no oil there either,mind you they have Shell Helix for breakfast and wash down with guiness,with no head on it! ooops they rarely smoke ! PLSE take my humour lightly!

On the issue of the Hick's factor question to me it's like a guy with a rebel without a cause or he trying to find one. One of those Moonies in religious terms or Jenny Craig types ie whats the right diet for me ....aimless and hopelessly found by the Yanks,like that drugged out American they found in North Afghanistan that is supposed to be doing life ?????! You know the Taliban rebel that has a British passport and takes the A'Train home to England because they are Inglish !!! 
But as someone mentions,that the Americans act like the " World police" sure I hear you,but somebody has to do the dirty work.....boy I'm so cynical,but my sense of humour buries me when guys like Robert Fisk, and the other British journo that looks overweight and always looks slightly brahms 'n' litz  (forget his name-sorry VISUAL),really do give an intelgent perspective of how it really might be.Compared to sugary Uncle Sam's version.
Oooh lets not forget it was the Sudanese that held Bin Laden in Khartoum,and the Americans (CIA) assigned him to fly onto what!!!! Afghanistan,you know isolate him.Unfortunately the luggage carousel was stuffed for his flight to Nort Korea.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (8 July 2006)

A good article to read on the topic:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19722214-601,00.html


----------



## 3 veiws of a secret (8 July 2006)

Snake .....!!! did you loose your eye because of that jittering machine gun!


----------



## rederob (8 July 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Oh, and sorry I didn't know that Hicks was been trained to fight against India. Really? Did he tell you that?



It's relatively well known, but perhaps not to people who prefer rumour to fact:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2004/d20040610cs.pdf


----------



## Sean K (9 July 2006)

The document seems to state that he initially went to fight with LET in Kashmir against India and other countries, but then went back to Afganistan to train with OBL to fight against the US and other countries. That's when he was captured. So, I think in perspective you might not be correct on this point. But interesting information though. Thanks.


----------



## Sean K (9 July 2006)

rederob, Interesting info on Sudan and oil. I didn't research it, which maybe I should have. If there is oil in the Sudan, the US must not need it right now. And that's why they don't need to bring democracy and freedom to that country. ATM. I'll do a search on Sudan and oil to get better edumacated. Cheers.


----------



## rederob (9 July 2006)

kennas
Up to date article:
http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=7165


----------



## Sean K (9 July 2006)

rederob,

Thanks, good article, but more in support of my 'New World Order' theory than the Sudanese oil industry. Oil is everywhere, including Sudan, but is it in sufficient qualtities for the US to want to control it? Perhaps not yet, in this case.  

I can guarantee that China will be adding more and more oil to their portfolio of assets around the globe and look to them to be the one's trying to influence the Middle East in the next 20 years to satisfy their growth and position as the next singular Superpower after the US implodes or is defeated. 

As we can see right now, Australia is simply becoming China's mine, for all the resources they need to eventually dominate us. 

Watch out!


----------



## Bobby (9 July 2006)

Just for interest, those who think the U.S.A. is so bad ! 
I'm going to give you a choise of countries, in this hypothetical case you can only choose one ,  YOU are being forced to do this !
 From your choise you will become a citizen of that land .

1. Banglsdesh 
2.Congo kinshasa
3.Cote D'ivoire
4.kyrcyzstan
5.Myanmar
6.U.S.A.
7.Nigar
8.Somalia
9.Nth Korea
10.malawi

When you do choose , do let me know why ?   

Bob.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (9 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Just for interest, those who think the U.S.A. is so bad !
> I'm going to give you a choise of countries, in this hypothetical case you can only choose one ,  YOU are being forced to do this !
> From your choise you will become a citizen of that land .
> 
> ...




Bobby,

Love your work mate.  
Give me the US of A any day. 
Snake


----------



## Bobby (9 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Bobby,
> 
> Love your work mate.
> Give me the US of A any day.
> Snake




Thanks Snake,

Can't see any rational person ever considering those other lands of horror ?
But you never know   

Bob.


----------



## Julia (9 July 2006)

Bobby

I can't imagine anyone is going to choose any country other than the USA, given the selection you provided of the worst places in the world.  Had you included a few more attractive options, the result would obviously be different.

Julia


----------



## wayneL (9 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Just for interest, those who think the U.S.A. is so bad !
> I'm going to give you a choise of countries, in this hypothetical case you can only choose one ,  YOU are being forced to do this !
> From your choise you will become a citizen of that land .
> 
> ...




Bobby,

Sorry, you've missed the point entirely.



			
				wayneL said:
			
		

> The most dangerous country on the planet atm




The point you have raised is unrelated to the subject at hand. The USA has become an extremely jingoistic nation with many of the elements of fascism also fulfilled. 

Those countries you've mentioned have no capacity to precipitate war on a world wide scale. Those countries have not invaded the middle east or splattered DU dust over great swaiths of our planet. They are unsavoury places for sure and not on my list of "must visit" countries. But a danger to world peace... Nah!

I stand by my comments.

Cheers


----------



## visual (9 July 2006)

Wayne,politically I`m not so astute so just flow with me,
I would say that its the behaviour of those countries that invited the USA to behave in a certain way,they get invited in or a compelled to help those who cant help themselves,absolutely sometimes you have to think why there and not other places,but then thats another issue.
For example when as you put it they splashed DU dust over Iraq the first time,Iraq had just invaded Quwait.Why didnt the Quwaiti stay and help,  now thats something I`d like to know, but........
When they went in to help the muslims in Bosnia they did this after thousands had already been ethinically cleaned. Murdered.

From what we are seeing now,who would you trust to be the world police?


----------



## Bobby (9 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Bobby
> 
> I can't imagine anyone is going to choose any country other than the USA, given the selection you provided of the worst places in the world.  Had you included a few more attractive options, the result would obviously be different.
> 
> Julia



 Hullo Julia,

The reason I choose those other 9 countries was to let people know what societies are horrendous.
Realism of crap lands would make a huge list .

The moral being -- the U.S. may not be what you like .
But look at the 9 others !   

Bob.


----------



## wayneL (10 July 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Wayne,politically I`m not so astute so just flow with me,
> I would say that its the behaviour of those countries that invited the USA to behave in a certain way,they get invited in or a compelled to help those who cant help themselves,absolutely sometimes you have to think why there and not other places,but then thats another issue.
> For example when as you put it they splashed DU dust over Iraq the first time,Iraq had just invaded Quwait.Why didnt the Quwaiti stay and help, now thats something I`d like to know, but........
> When they went in to help the muslims in Bosnia they did this after thousands had already been ethinically cleaned. Murdered.
> ...




Sadly, the world seems to need some sort of cop. That was the idea of the United Nations. Unfortunately, because of the way the UN is structured, it has become inneffective in that goal

Bosnia was a UN action I think, or at least a NATO action and had the support of the world community, as did Gulf War I.

However GW II was an illegal action based on outright lies that was planned prior to 911. Iraq was not a threat to anyone nor was it connected with Al CIAda. The Americans have also used outlawed weaponry such as white phosphourous and napalm. The use of DU is indefensable for it's affect on both soldiers and civilians, no matter whether legal or not.

The great thing about the internet is the availability of alternative news sources, rather than the sanitized and propagandized mainstream sources. There is some silly stuff out there for sure. But there is also sources of unfiltered truth.

When you see photographs of an Afgani civilian carrying his young daughter out of his bombed house, with her leg shattered, her foot hanging on only by a piece of skin, it utterly breaks your heart... and there is much worse than that.

It makes me very angry when that is not justifiable by the facts... and I mean facts, not propaganda. The US has had a hand in numerous wars, civil wars and coups around the world for decades. Guatemala, Honduras, Chile, Iraq/Iran Grenada and many many more.

There are other very dangerous nations... NK, Russia, Byelarus, China etc etc but none who have become so involved so insidiously and comprehensively across the globe.

Listen, we were all raised to believe that we (the west) are the good guy, we wear the white hat, we stand for freedom godammit! But slowly but exponentially our freedoms are being eroded while our governments become involved in unjustifyable self serving warfare. War is now just one more profitable business. This realisation (but we have to look past the propaganda) is damned painful and uncomfortable to contemplate... it's not nice, especially as I myself am a yank.

I have investigated this for 20 years and am satisfied that my views are legitimate and I hope they are taken in good faith (nobody has to agree) and I hope people investigate to satisfy themselves. Just don't take what the goddam TV says as gopel, because it ain't.

Cheers


----------



## Bobby (10 July 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Bobby,
> 
> Sorry, you've missed the point entirely.
> 
> ...



Hullo Wayne,

Nice of you to comment   , No need to say sorry ? As your word dangerous did need qualification in its original form  : 

You state the U.S.A. is jingostic ? ( chauvinism ) &  well has having elements
of fascism fulfilled.
This reasoning could be a pontification of your own mind ?
You must open those thoughts to all   

Those Countries I mentioned are just more :-   dangerous to live in then the U.S.A.
Yep there no big threat to world peace, only to themselves.

Just who else would come to our defence ? when needed !

Regards Bob.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (10 July 2006)

> Sadly, the world seems to need some sort of cop. That was the idea of the United Nations. Unfortunately, because of the way the UN is structured, it has become inneffective in that goal




The UN is just a place for career diplomats to sponge off their governments, and cohesive gang formations amongst backwater tribal countries of Africa and the middle east, to collude with China and Russia in projecting back door trade with despots. It has a pretty little guy telling everyone what to do...



> When you see photographs of an Afgani civilian carrying his young daughter out of his bombed house, with her leg shattered, her foot hanging on only by a piece of skin, it utterly breaks your heart... and there is much worse than that.




This should not happen to anybody. But, where were the concerned when the resistence leader was blown to pieces by the Taliban?  



> There are other very dangerous nations... NK, Russia, Byelarus, China etc etc but none who have become so involved so insidiously and comprehensively across the globe.




Actually, research where China sells its arms.



> I have investigated this for 20 years and am satisfied that my views are legitimate and I hope they are taken in good faith (nobody has to agree) and I hope people investigate to satisfy themselves. Just don't take what the goddam TV says as gopel, because it ain't.




Wayne, just wondering what you think of Putin kissing the little boy like a pussy cat the other day?


----------



## wayneL (10 July 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> The UN is just a place for career diplomats to sponge off their governments, and cohesive gang formations amongst backwater tribal countries of Africa and the middle east, to collude with China and Russia in projecting back door trade with despots. It has a pretty little guy telling everyone what to do...




Unfortunately, dead true, the world's a mess.  I'm going to go and medidate and say OM for a while.

Then I'm watching the soccer... I have managed to find some Gallic ancestry. GO FRANCE!

Cheers


----------



## professor_frink (10 July 2006)

Dear leader Kim Jung II,

Get bent.

frinky.


----------



## Julia (10 July 2006)

Snake

You raised the question of Putin kissing the little boy.  I thought it was quite weird to kiss the child on his belly.  Perhaps plant an avuncular kiss on top of his head, but to do what he did was very odd.

Julia


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (10 July 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Snake
> 
> You raised the question of Putin kissing the little boy.  I thought it was quite weird to kiss the child on his belly.  Perhaps plant an avuncular kiss on top of his head, but to do what he did was very odd.
> 
> Julia




Julia,

I agree. It really made me question this guy`s judgment. Is he going insane at such a young age?


----------



## 3 veiws of a secret (10 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> 1. Banglsdesh
> 2.Congo kinshasa
> 3.Cote D'ivoire
> 4.kyrcyzstan
> ...




With tongue in cheek and being cynical to the ultra extreme -I would choose any of the countries listed except USA only because I can afford to bribe the bureaucrats in the 3rd world but in USA I can't afford to buy my way into Congress.
OOOPS.............



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> You raised the question of Putin kissing the little boy. I thought it was quite weird to kiss the child on his belly. Perhaps plant an avuncular kiss on top of his head, but to do what he did was very odd.




Putin has been taking lessons from Yeltsin.......wait till Putin starts dancing like Yetlsin....he had style!!!!! remember the tarmac in Dublin!!!


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (11 July 2006)

I watched a documentary on TV last night in Japan about robotic warfare equipment such as drones and miniature tanks that drive themselves.
Pure enjoyment it was. 

The Israelis have drones that spot rocket firing peasants and then they send in a missile to destroy them.

It showed drone footage of a past date unspecified of Bin Laden at a training camp. They didn`t blow him up though.   

My hunch is they have already got him and are keeping it secret.(Just an opinion nad does not constitute fact)


----------



## wayneL (12 July 2006)

Interesting site: a businessmans perspective of N korea

http://www.tjpmd.com/tom's.htm


----------



## Sean K (5 October 2006)

*Nuclear Test Could Trigger Arms Race*

A NORTH Korean nuclear test could trigger an arms race involving Japan, South Korea and China that would add catastrophic risks to regional tensions, defence experts fear.

And it would undermine the power of the US, which plays a dominant strategic security role in the region's defence, diplomacy and stability.

"If Japan and South Korea develop their own nuclear programs in disregard of their military alliance relationship with the United States due to a North Korean test, this will only show that they no longer believe in US military protection and would like to go their own way on defence issues," said Shen Dingli of the Institute of International Issues at Shanghai's Fudan University.

North Korea has enough weapons-grade material for 10 Hiroshima-class nuclear bombs and the ability to extract plutonium, Dr Shen said. It proved in missile tests in July it has mastered rocket technology that could propel a missile to Japan.

New Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has in the past supported the idea of his country having small strategic nuclear weapons, and after North Korea's missile tests in July said there should be a debate about a possible pre-emptive strike.

Observers say North Korea's threat this week to test a nuclear weapon follows a pattern of dangerous attention-seeking by the reclusive Stalinist regime's leader, Kim Jong-il.

The spotlight has recently moved to South Korea, whose Foreign Minister is favourite to become UN secretary-general, and to Japan where Mr Abe wants to reposition his country as a regional heavyweight.

The threat has given new purpose to talks between Japan, China and South Korea this weekend. The talks will now focus on mutual alarm at the prospect of nuclear weapons in rogue hands.

Also on the horizon is an Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum summit of leaders including US President George Bush, Chinese President Hu Jintao and Australian Prime Minister John Howard in Vietnam in about a month.

In its first official comments, China's Foreign Ministry issued a predictable response, saying: "We hope that North Korea will exercise necessary calm and restraint over the nuclear test issue."

China is North Korea's closest ally and has always refused to back sanctions involving military force against its reclusive neighbour.

Other world leaders lashed out at North Korea's announcement but offered no clear plan to deal with aggravated tensions over the dictatorship's nuclear weapons ambitions.

Chris Nelson, author of Washington's highly regarded Nelson Report, suggested that the test could be as early as Sunday, the anniversary of Mr Kim's elevation to General Secretary of the Korea Workers Party and an occasion that might tempt him to show renewed power.

South Korea, which has pursued economic and cultural engagement with the North in the hope of eventual reunification, has reacted to the threat by appearing to put its "sunshine policy" on the line.

"If North Korea carries out a nuclear test, it would have serious negative effects on peace on the Korean Peninsula and inter-Korean relations," a Government spokesman said.


----------



## Bobby (6 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> *Nuclear Test Could Trigger Arms Race*
> 
> A NORTH Korean nuclear test could trigger an arms race involving Japan, South Korea and China that would add catastrophic risks to regional tensions, defence experts fear.
> 
> ...



Yep this is heavy stuff, but think of the uranium sales   

Then I guess the money will be hard to enjoy as the planet destructs   

Bob.


----------



## Sean K (6 October 2006)

US went to war (albeit agaisnt soft opposition) with Iraq with vague notioins that WMD existed in the country and a regime saying they didn't actually have any.

Along comes Nth Korea, saying they have them, and are going to test them, and keep test launching rockets that could carry them to Australia...Hmmmmm

'No future' for nuclear Nth Korea: US
Peter Alford, Tokyo correspondent 
October 06, 2006

WASHINGTON'S senior envoy dealing with Kim Jong-il's regime has warned the US would "not live with a nuclear North Korea" under any circumstances, amid fresh signs of an imminent atomic test.

"(North Korea) can have a future or it can have these weapons," Assistant Secretary of State Christopher Hill told a Washington thinktank yesterday. "It cannot have both." 

Mr Hill's words are likely to be taken in Pyongyang as a threat of military action. 

He laid down the ultimatum, though without hint of what further measures the Americans might take against the regime, as unnamed US officials told several news outlets that new signs of activity had been detected at a potential explosion site. 

The most likely site for North Korea's first nuclear explosive test is understood to be near the Punggye-yok underground facility in Kilchu county of North Hamgyong province. Punggye-yok was the focus of unrealised test scares in 2004 and last year. 

Satellite surveillance is said to have detected vehicles, people and the movement of materials at nearby Mount Mantap, into which South Korean intelligence officials say a tunnel and horizontal shafts have been driven. 

A South Korean congressman who sits on a national assembly security committee, Song Young-sun, said yesterday eight sites in the north and west of the country were under surveillance. 

Punggye-yok is about 35km northwest of Musudan-ri, the base from which Pyongyang launched its unsuccessful Taepodong-2 long-range ballistic missile on July 5. 

One US official told the AFP news agency the North Koreans' test preparations might be a bluff but "the bottom line is they could conduct it with little or no warning". There is speculation the North Koreans could explode their bomb - they are generally thought to have at least six relatively crude devices - as early as Sunday, when Japan's new Prime Minister will be in Beijing for a summit with President Hu Jintao. 

Possible pre-test activities have been detected for more than six weeks but on Tuesday North Korea's Foreign Ministry said, for the first time definitely, the regime would explode a nuclear weapon, justified by the alleged threat of US invasion and further heavy sanctions. 

China, North Korea's vital ally, toughened its posture yesterday with the state-run Xinhua news agency reporting that Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing had told North Korea's ambassador to convey to Pyongyang's leadership that "serious consequences" would follow a nuclear explosion. 

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov also announced Moscow was "holding direct talks with the leaders of North Korea" in the hope of persuading Pyongyang not to carry out a test. 

Mr Hill attacked the idea that seems to be central to current Pyongyang thinking: eventually after a test the US would have to accept and deal with nuclear North Korea, as it has done with India and Pakistan. 

But Mr Hill characterised the Kim regime as a unique threat to the stability of northeast Asia and to US allies Japan and South Korea. "We are not going to live with a nuclear North Korea, we are not going to accept it," Mr Hill said. 

"We have responsibilities throughout Asia, throughout the world (and) we will honour those responsibilities. 

"We will honour our alliance relationships, especially in the Republic of Korea and in Japan. 

"(North Korea) will realise at some point in the future that they had a very bad day when they made that choice." 

Agreement on a UN Security Council statement demanding North Korea withdraw its test threat appeared to be closer yesterday when Japan, the current council president, offered a compromise to China. 

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuhisa Shiozaki said yesterday in Tokyo that Japan was prepared to have the UN Security Council warning issued as a press statement, rather than the weightier presidential statement.


----------



## nioka (6 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Nth Korea is probably one of the few coutries around the world that I'd support an armed intervention by an external force. Revolution normally has to occurr internally to succeed, but in this case there is no possibility for the masses to organise. The dictatorship (or whatever it is) seems to be too entrenched.



And have another IRAQ. As someone who "joined up' for the last Korean war I can not see that being the answer to the problem. When George Bush declared them part of the axis of evil I think that was enough to make Nth Korea get antagonistic. The answer is NOT war. And I'm not normally a pacifist.


----------



## Sean K (6 October 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> And have another IRAQ. As someone who "joined up' for the last Korean war I can not see that being the answer to the problem. When George Bush declared them part of the axis of evil I think that was enough to make Nth Korea get antagonistic. The answer is NOT war. And I'm not normally a pacifist.




Then I wonder when there ever is a time for intervention in support of a human population and to possibly prevent a greater evil? 

Millions of people in Nth Korea living in abject poverty while their leaders hide billions in foreign banks and turning into the classic fat pigs in 1984. 

Eventually, to gain more power, resources and recognition, they raid the next door neighbours farm to keep the camp fires cooking and the people supressed. 

The Nth Korea solution can only end in one of two ways: Revolution or exernal powers intervening. Diplomacy ran it's course pre 1950.


----------



## Sean K (6 October 2006)

And it would be nothing like Iraq. There are no internal factions fighting for power, just the fat cats and the poor. Once the govt is toppled the entire population will rejoice. 

Can't compare this to Iraq, or any other country really. Take it on it's merits.


----------



## nioka (6 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Then I wonder when there ever is a time for intervention in support of a human population and to possibly prevent a greater evil?
> 
> Millions of people in Nth Korea living in abject poverty while their leaders hide billions in foreign banks and turning into the classic fat pigs in 1984.
> 
> ...



Mandella did not need a war in Sth Africa. There are other ways.


----------



## Sean K (6 October 2006)

nioka said:
			
		

> Mandella did not need a war in Sth Africa. There are other ways.




How many blacks died under apatheid? How many still live in poverty because of it? 

But again, I don't think we should compare apples with oranges. Nth Korea is not the same as Sth Africa.


----------



## Sodapop (9 October 2006)

Looks like the Marxist/Stalinist/Kleptocracy miscalculated gravely in their announcement last week... the US and it's neigbours didn't bend to the brinkmanship... and now they want to talk - interesting... Is this what they wanted all the time???... If they can talk in good faith then fine - but we well know that the North can't be trusted (super dollars, weapons, drug traffiking (refused to help the Federal Govt. in a drug importation case last year - and a NK ship/crew with a "Political Cadre" on board was confiscated))... NK is as prickly a situation as we will ever see...


----------



## Sodapop (9 October 2006)

Sodapop said:
			
		

> Looks like the Marxist/Stalinist/Kleptocracy miscalculated gravely in their announcement last week... the US and it's neigbours didn't bend to the brinkmanship... and now they want to talk - interesting... Is this what they wanted all the time???... If they can talk in good faith then fine - but we well know that the North can't be trusted (super dollars, weapons, drug traffiking (refused to help the Federal Govt. in a drug importation case last year - and a NK ship/crew with a "Political Cadre" on board was confiscated))... NK is as prickly a situation as we will ever see...




EDIT - Looks like they have done it... bad news - nice one China!!!


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## Sean K (9 October 2006)

I wonder what lame action the UN will come up with on this.

They'll probably issue a statement say 'bad, bad, bad, Kim!' and that'll be it. Paper tiger. 

I can't see the US letting this slip though so easily.


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## Sodapop (9 October 2006)

Dunno about you guys but only mediation can fix this - military options are unacceptable unless another great depression is an appealing thought...


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## Julia (9 October 2006)

Sodapop said:
			
		

> Dunno about you guys but only mediation can fix this - military options are unacceptable unless another great depression is an appealing thought...



For mediation to succeed it is necessary to have the genuine co-operation of both/all parties.

Julia


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## Happy (9 October 2006)

Compromise comes into equation too


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## CanOz (9 October 2006)

I'm only 750 odd kilometers from that bloody wanker! I can't imagine anything that the U.N. or anyone can do to stop this guy. Only China holds the answer, seems the only country that he'll listen too. Lately they seem to have had very little influence over him.

Nutter!


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## Agentm (10 October 2006)

forget the hype on north korea..

it was a tiny nike..

they have no missiles that can carry any nuke.. and all missiles are completely inaccurate..

they have no ability to nuke anything today..

they are sabre rattling,, each time a clear spot occurs in international events,, NK makes some noise,, they are desperate to get the US to the negotiating table... the country is in deep poverty and misery... they have no way of getting out of it,, 


its great news,,, 

1.  they are talking

2  they are announceing before they do things..

  think about it,, forget the hype,, its nothing to worry about,, NK need the world to get it self out of the mess its in,, this way it can look powerful to its people and get the world to help,,,  the world will give aid,, and help these guys out and lift them out of poverty,, and they will give peace as a prize..

its just diplomacy at work. probably hard to imagine but its fantastic news that these guys are trying to get through this desperte situation.... forget all about it and dont even rad what the jurnos are writing,, they are headlining just for the sake of newpaper sales..

storm in a teacup guys... rest easy


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## mrWoodo (10 October 2006)

Agentm said:
			
		

> storm in a teacup guys... rest easy




I agree - Year after year the "Dear Leader" puffs out the chest in order to remind the US they're still formidable, and to make sure they get some food aid in return for backing down.

No point in DPRK using a nuke against Seoul or Tokyo, when they're so close the fallout would affect PyongYang anyway.

I visit Seoul every year (inlaws) and it's the foreign news that makes a big deal out of events in the North - Locals don't pay much attention to Kim, it's just a part of life. 

I worry more for the fact that US has stated 'A future or nuclear weapons, but not both'. What will Bush do now to show they are not making empty claims / not 'lose face' ? Iran and DPRK would be nothing at all like Iraq, for the US. The military in both are hardened fanatics!


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## Nicks (10 October 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Nth Korea is probably one of the few coutries around the world that I'd support an armed intervention by an external force. Revolution normally has to occurr internally to succeed, but in this case there is no possibility for the masses to organise. The dictatorship (or whatever it is) seems to be too entrenched.




The people, the masses, may indeed support an intervention if they are living it that tough.

That said the dictator is concerned for his personal wellbing and life, and will probably do whatever to preserve that.


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## 2020hindsight (12 October 2006)

I assume you folks know of this website with "Bushisms" - but here are some jokes by USA comedians attached to that site :-
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm
Political Humor
You Can't Change The News But You Can Laugh At It!:-

"President Bush says we need more time to determine if what (North Korea) detonated was a nuclear device. Well sure, that makes sense, because Bush doesn't want to rush to judgment when it comes to weapons of mass destruction." --David Letterman 

"Kim Jong-Il said after the test was conducted, he got an e-mail from Congressman Foley telling him he would love him long time." --Jay Leno 

"Democrats attacked President Bush for his North Korean policy. And Bush said, 'Gotcha. I don't have a North Korean policy.'" --Jay Leno 

"This week, President Bush said he has no plans to invade North Korea. Bush said, 'This time, Rumsfeld and I are going to wing it.'" --Conan O'Brien

"Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright called North Korea's leader Kim Jung Il a pervert. In response, Kim Jung Il said 'I dare her to put on a leather mask and say that to my ass.'" --Conan O'Brien

"Former Secretary of State Madeline Albright said North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il is, quote, 'a pervert.' When Kim Jong Il heard that, he said tell her to say it again slowly while licking her lips." --Conan O'Brien

"North Korean dictator Kim Jung Il may be stepping down. Yeah, experts in the State Department say he could be replaced by his son, Menta Li Ill." --David Letterman 

"Over the weekend, North Korea, seen here in parade form, stunned the world by agreeing to end its nuclear weapons program in exchange for a White House pledge not to invade them. The surprise breakthrough in the talks made banner headlines -- until the next day when unfortunately North Korea backed out and vowed to keep its weapons until Washington gave it a nuclear reactor. Now I understand that Kim Jong Il enjoys Western entertainment, so, on the off chance that he may be watching this program, I would like to take a moment to address the dear leader. ... Listen f---head, you got the Bush administration to promise not to attack you. Don't blow that. Mexico can't even get that. Every day, Canadians check the map to make sure we didn't move the border on them overnight. We're bad-ass, baby" --Jon Stewart

"North Korea announced that they have nuclear weapons and they have no plans to give them up. The White House, acting quickly, announced their plan to invade Iran." --Craig Ferguson

"It's been reported that in the event of an emergency situation with North Korea the U.S. is prepared to send 70% of the Marine Corps to the region. According to President Bush this will still allow us to send another 70% to Iran and keep our other 70% in Iraq." --Tina Fey

"President Bush meet with the president of South Korea. Things got off to an awkward start when President Bush asked 'Are you from the good Korea or the bad Korea?'" --Conan O'Brien


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## Happy (16 October 2006)

> By 7News
> Besieged North Korea responds to UN sanctions
> 
> North Korea has continued to threaten war if pressure over its nuclear program continues.
> ...





Somebody might discredit reporters, but how appropriate critique was, when Tara Brown effectively asked John Howard -  

Why we are not occupying North Korea, since they have weapons especially that we take part of Iraq occupation, which doesn’t?

I agree, question tricky, and with what we know now, maybe we would be in Iraq with different explanation, like Kurds genocide, but for that we would be 10 or 15 years too late.

Sometimes I am glad that I don’t have to make decisions on complicated political issues myself.


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## Sean K (4 November 2006)

I don't think the Nth Korea thing is going away any time soon.....

*US 'steps up' plans for N Korea strike*
From correspondents in Washington
November 04, 2006

THE Pentagon has stepped up planning for attacks on North Korean nuclear facilities and is bolstering US nuclear forces in the region, The Washington Times reported overnight, citing officials familiar with the process.

The officials said the planning includes detailed programs for using special operations commando raids or Tomahawk cruise missile strikes to disable North Korea's plutonium-processing facility at Yongbyon.

"Other than nuclear strikes, which are considered excessive, there are several options now in place. Planning has been accelerated," a Pentagon official was quoted as saying.

A Pentagon spokesman said that while the military always plans for a variety of contingencies, the story "mischaracterised the approach (to North Korea) within the department."

"The president has made it clear we are pursuing a diplomatic approach through the six party talks and with the international community to reach a peaceful and diplomatic solution," said Major David Smith.

The Times said the military planning was given new impetus by North Korea's October 9 nuclear test, and by growing opposition to its nuclear program by China and South Korea.

A second senior US defence official quoted in the article said the United States had recently assured Japan and South Korea that it would use nuclear weapons to deter North Korea.

"We will resort to whatever force levels we need to have, to defend the Republic of Korea. That nuclear deterrence is in place," the senior official said.

The official declined to say what nuclear forces the United States has in the region, but the report said other officials said they include bombs and air-launched missiles stored in Guam that could be delivered by B-52 and B-2 bombers.

Nine nuclear-missile submarines regularly deploy to Asian waters from Washington state, the report said.


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## CanOz (4 November 2006)

Holy crap Kennas! I don't need this...i'm less than 900 kms from that weirdo....I think the diplomatic efforts will take some heat off the issue for a while and hopefully result in some kind of positive long term outcome.

Cheers,


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## billhill (4 November 2006)

Wait until after the mid term elections and then i think we will see the US administrations true intentions.


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## Wysiwyg (13 February 2007)

Really warming to read that North Korea is moving toward a better future for all involved in that region.  I want them to follow through with this.


North Korea agrees to nuclear disarmament


Last Updated: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 | 5:24 AM ET 
The Associated Press 
North Korea agreed at talks with the U.S. and four regional powers Tuesday to shut down its main nuclear reactor within 60 days and eventually dismantle its atomic weapons program.

Under the deal, the North will receive an initial 50,000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil for shutting down and sealing its main nuclear reactor, to be confirmed by international inspectors, Chinese envoy Wu Dawei said. The North eventually will receive another 950,000 tonnes in aid for irreversibly disabling the reactor.

North Korea and the U.S. also will embark on talks aimed at resolving disputes and restarting diplomatic relations, Wu said.

The Korean Peninsula has remained in a state of war for more than a half-century since the Korean War ended in a 1953 ceasefire.

The U.S. will begin the process of removing North Korea from its designation as a terror-sponsoring state and also on ending U.S. trade sanctions, but no deadlines were set, according to the agreement. Japan and North Korea also will seek to normalize relations, Wu said.

After the initial 60 days, a joint meeting will be convened of foreign ministers from all countries at the talks ”” China, Japan, Russia, the United States and the two Koreas. Another meeting of the nuclear envoys was scheduled for March 19.

Under a 1994 U.S.-North Korea disarmament agreement, the North was to receive 500,000 tons of fuel oil a year before construction was completed of two nuclear reactors that would be able to generate 2 million kilowatts of electricity.

That deal fell apart in late 2002 when the U.S. accused the North of conducting a secret uranium enrichment program, sparking the latest nuclear crisis that led to the six-nation talks.

In September 2005, North Korea was promised energy aid and security guarantees in exchange for pledging to abandon its nuclear programs. But talks on implementing that agreement repeatedly stalled on other issues.

In the last few days, the talks had appeared to be on the verge of foundering, and envoys made clear that their frustration was increasing and their patience growing thin. The current round was to conclude on Monday but as they progressed toward a deal, negotiators extended it late into the night and then into the early hours of Tuesday.

The U.S. envoy to the talks, Christopher Hill, emerged in the early morning hours of Tuesday looking weary after a marathon 16-hour negotiating session and announced that a tentative deal had been struck.

Hill said the draft agreement still must be reviewed by the home governments of the six countries at the talks, but he was upbeat about its chances. He said he was in "constant communication" with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

"We feel it's an excellent draft; I don't think we're the problem," he said at the time.

If Pyongyang follows through with its promises, they would be the first moves the Communist nation has made to scale back its atomic development after more than three years of six-nation negotiations marked by delays, deadlock and the North's first nuclear test explosion in October.

In September 2005, North Korea was promised energy aid and security guarantees in exchange for a pledge to abandon its nuclear programs. But talks on implementing that agreement snarled on other issues and that plan went nowhere.

 © The Canadian Press, 2007


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## 2020hindsight (13 February 2007)

Wysiwyg said:
			
		

> Really warming to read that North Korea is moving toward a better future for all involved in that region.  I want them to follow through with this.  ...North Korea agrees to nuclear disarmament



RIPPER!

say Wysiwyg, if the Korean peninsula was previously in a state of tension, does that mean it is now in a state of de-tention?   
gr8 news.


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## Wysiwyg (13 February 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> RIPPER!
> 
> say Wysiwyg, if the Korean peninsula was previously in a state of tension, does that mean it is now in a state of de-tention?
> gr8 news.




Iran will suffer economic sanctions too which, if the U.N. decide to, could bring the economy to a standstill.Better than war hey.A bargaining chip is what they are after.(Iran)Isolation with Neville no friends is the best way.


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## 2020hindsight (13 February 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1847055.htm = just for the record.  
Don't know about Iran, but this is a bludy miracle if you ask me.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 February 2007)

Korea and Cambodia have a long history of dysfunction and genocide extending back 1 to 2 thousand years.

This is nothing new for Korea.

At least the criminals are being watched. However there is probably little that can be done due to Korea's strategic position.

Garpal


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## misterS (14 February 2007)

However Nth Korea eventually disintegrates, or explodes, the depravity of what occurred there will be truly shocking even by today's brutal standards. When you see any of the fairly rare footage showing the hysterical puppy-pissing itself citizens of this State where the ultimate extension of Stalin's terror-based cult of personality has been implemented, it is frightening to imagine what is going on there.  What has been revealed is bad enough, but must only be a dim reflection of the whole.

I saw this defector interviewed on tv.  He said he was previously a commandant of a gulag-style prison camp where entire families of political prisoners were imprisoned, sometimes for a political mis-step by a family member, sometimes from a previous generation, before they were even born.  He calmly talked about the lethal-dose testing on entire families of poison gas in a purpose-built glass observation chamber, describing the mother's  pathetic attempts to protect her small child - totally chilling.
The guy didn't come across as the most worthy refugee.

Watching a different, government-santioned one about a young girl training for one of those displays, you could still smell the fear of the parents of being denounced by their children. It was like "1984" with a little radio fixed in the kitchen with its single station, devoted entirely to the leader's impeccable deeds, presumably because they can't afford the two-way tv screens.  It is mainly because they have a massive miltary machine poised at the border not far from Seoul that holds off attack.  While nuclear is the ultimate deterrent, it is probably unnecessary.

China continues to return starving escapees it rounds up to North Korea at their little border and the Nth Korean soldiers join them up by driving a sharpened metal cable through their hands or collar bones in full view and drag them off, to Christ knows what fate.  Despite its modernisation, China probably doesn't mind having a buffer between themselves and the US-supported South across the border, even if it is is wicked and unstable, perhaps remembering that MacArthur wanted to nuke China during the Korean War and considering any future developments concerning Taiwan.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 February 2007)

misterS said:
			
		

> However Nth Korea eventually disintegrates, or explodes, the depravity of what occurred there will be truly shocking even by today's brutal standards. When you see any of the fairly rare footage showing the hysterical puppy-pissing itself citizens of this State where the ultimate extension of Stalin's terror-based cult of personality has been implemented, it is frightening to imagine what is going on there.  What has been revealed is bad enough, but must only be a dim reflection of the whole.
> 
> I saw this defector interviewed on tv.  He said he was previously a commandant of a gulag-style prison camp where entire families of political prisoners were imprisoned, sometimes for a political mis-step by a family member, sometimes from a previous generation, before they were even born.  He calmly talked about the lethal-dose testing on entire families of poison gas in a purpose-built glass observation chamber, describing the mother's  pathetic attempts to protect her small child - totally chilling.
> The guy didn't come across as the most worthy refugee.
> ...





Dear misterS,

I acknowledge your concerns, but don't feel as strongly as you do about the people of NK.

They have a habit whether under theocratic, regal or communistic/fascist control of total subjugation to central authority, over many centuries.

They are basically a dysfunctional population prone to manipulation by central government.

They are as we would say in the vernacular "stuffed", they don't know they are being stuffed around, they have no control over their government and they have no will to change.

I know of not one "North Korean Dissident"

Garpal


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## Robroy (14 February 2007)

It's a little known fact that Dear Leader pens many of the pop songs which go straight to the top of the North Koreran hit parade.

(I understand that firing squads await DJs who don't play them - kind of like payola with a stick instead of a carrot.)

Anyway, the most popular of these is the ditty, "My Happiness Knows No Bounds Since I Moved Into My Brand New Government Flat".

I understand it's very catchy.


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## misterS (14 February 2007)

Garpal, you surprise me. Like Stain's reign, terror is number one government policy. It is so pervasive that is it doesn't even need dissent, let alone dissidents.  I expect like Russia after WWII, there must be quotas for interrogators to fill, or they are next cab off the rank for displaying their treacherous unwillingness to see dissent when the dear and infallible leader knows it's there.  Do they know better?  The purpose of the policy is not just to terrorise the citizens, but to terrorise its every instrument as well, all the way up and down the tree.  Cabinet ministers and generals air-brushed out of photos. 

Martin Amis wrote of the unusual collusion in interrogations of the day, where both parties knew the purpose was never ever to establish the truth. Indeed there was no objective crime to be proven. Merely an admission that you were indeed a "wrecker" or a "counter-revolutionary" without any definition or prospect of escape.  A terror-based cult of personality is so effective because no one can be trusted. Everyone at every level is left in a deliberately and brutally induced state of terror, relieved only by death. If that sounds melodramatic, read Amis's book on Stalin.  It's only small and was motivated mainly by a wish to examine his father, Kingsley's role as an apologist for communism.  It was a real eye-opener for me and hints at what must be happening in NK.

I couldn't accept the proposition that the race of Nth Koreans have a "habit" of subjugation. This is different to a history of subjugation, and the South Koreans are the other half of the same race and they seem to have produced a successful modern democratic society - given the opportunity.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 February 2007)

misterS said:
			
		

> Garpal, you surprise me. Like Stain's reign, terror is number one government policy. It is so pervasive that is it doesn't even need dissent, let alone dissidents.  I expect like Russia after WWII, there must be quotas for interrogators to fill, or they are next cab off the rank for displaying their treacherous unwillingness to see dissent when the dear and infallible leader knows it's there.  Do they know better?  The purpose of the policy is not just to terrorise the citizens, but to terrorise its every instrument as well, all the way up and down the tree.  Cabinet ministers and generals air-brushed out of photos.
> 
> Martin Amis wrote of the unusual collusion in interrogations of the day, where both parties knew the purpose was never ever to establish the truth. Indeed there was no objective crime to be proven. Merely an admission that you were indeed a "wrecker" or a "counter-revolutionary" without any definition or prospect of escape.  A terror-based cult of personality is so effective because no one can be trusted. Everyone at every level is left in a deliberately and brutally induced state of terror, relieved only by death. If that sounds melodramatic, read Amis's book on Stalin.  It's only small and was motivated mainly by a wish to examine his father, Kingsley's role as an apologist for communism.  It was a real eye-opener for me and hints at what must be happening in NK.
> 
> I couldn't accept the proposition that the race of Nth Koreans have a "habit" of subjugation. This is different to a history of subjugation, and the South Koreans are the other half of the same race and they seem to have produced a successful modern democratic society - given the opportunity.




Thanks for that reply and your opoinions on NK.

I basically see little difference between NK and SK. 

Their history is one of subjugation by either China or Japan. Its not all that politically correct to apply conduct and actions to populations, however NK and SK provide a proof of this. 

Under any system of understanding these guys in NK have been starving for the last 5-15 years. 

NK is stuffed on any evaluation.

SK has problems with graft and a younger economy, China is catching up economically.

Korea appears challenged.

Garpal


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## 2020hindsight (14 February 2007)

SK subjugation to Japan?
I was there on a train when they beat Japan in the soccer world cup back in the 80's .  The whole train went into party mode.  Meanwhile Hyundai etc take on the Japanese worldwide. 
Cruel act to split the country at the 38th parallel. Until then pretty much unified.  Bit like East and West Germany I guess (back when it was initially divided), too bad if you lived just over the border.  Just goes to show you what a couple of generations of "alternative mismanagement" can do to a society. 

generall rejoicing - Japan hesitant I notice...


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1847107.htm
> Countries hail N Korea outcomes, but Japan hesitant
> Britain has welcomed the "positive outcome" of six-party talks in Beijing aimed at halting North Korea's nuclear weapons drive.
> 
> ...


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## Holdon (24 April 2007)

Borris yeltzin is dead...soo sad...he was a champion of peace....did a wonderful job with the yanks ...I hope we all can live in peace rather than fight for it!


It's time to become hippytraders....save the world.....there is to much greed....buy a water tank for off your roof for water....screw the red tape....just do it!.....and you better start doing what Grandad used to do.....grow your own...IMO....go green asap......we are loosing the war at a rapid rate......IMO this is your last chance to go green and save the world for your sons and daughters.......go green...borris would be proud....

Ps I am not a communist but like to trade goods between my neighbors.....rather than by rubbish from Wollies or Coles.....who knows where that crap came from.....or weather they washed their hands before they picked it....and then.......who handled it before you got it...including other shoppers.....eeeeeewwww yuck.....go green.


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## 2020hindsight (24 April 2007)

Holdon said:


> Borris yeltzin is dead...soo sad...he was a champion of peace....did a wonderful job with the yanks ...I hope we all can live in peace rather than fight for it!
> 
> It's time to become hippytraders....save the world.....there is to much greed....buy a water tank for off your roof for water....screw the red tape....just do it!.....and you better start doing what Grandad used to do.....grow your own...IMO....go green asap......we are loosing the war at a rapid rate......IMO this is your last chance to go green and save the world for your sons and daughters.......go green...borris would be proud....
> 
> Ps I am not a communist but like to trade goods between my neighbors.....rather than by rubbish from Wollies or Coles.....who knows where that crap came from.....or weather they washed their hands before they picked it....and then.......who handled it before you got it...including other shoppers.....eeeeeewwww yuck.....go green.



Holdon, lol, whilst I agree with you in each and every one of the 10 sentiments you expressed back there (possible exception of "WHO's BEEN TOUCHING THE ORANGES!!" lol) , that has to be the most wide ranging post I have ever read , lol - you should go into comedy 

He was obviously lucky to make it to the age he did - coronary/ vascular etc - probably vodka stole a few months from his life you'd think?   But then again, probably only the best of vodka , not like the stuff we proletariat drink 

and maybe people get to touch vegetable on the way through , lol - I wouldn't really know (and would care less, lol) But great post.  

PS "I might have had a mixt rrreputation, comrade, but at least I never watered down my fodka!!"
He was sure a great cgaracter - but it's unlikely that many Chechnya-ns would miss him I guess . 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1904795.htm
Former Russian president Boris Yeltsin has died at the age of 76 from a heart attack. 
Mr Yeltsin, who had long been ailing, played a key role in the collapse of the Soviet Union and introduced free-market democracy to Russia.
..of coronary and vascular failure. *Mikhail Gorbachev, the Soviet president who Mr Yeltsin effectively forced from office, has paid a mixed tribute to the landmark Russian leader, while the US and Britain have hailed him.* 

"I offer my deepest condolences to the family of a man on whose shoulders rested many great deeds for the good of the country *and serious mistakes *- a tragic fate," Mr Gorbachev was quoted by Interfax as saying. 

British Prime Minister *Tony Blair *.    *"He was a remarkable man who saw the need for democracy and economic reform and in defending that reform, he played a vital role at a crucial time in Russia's history*." 

US Defence Secretary Robert Gates has also praised Mr Yeltsin's historical role.  "He was an important figure in Russian history," Mr Gates said.  "*No American, at least, will forget seeing him standing on the tank outside the White House  resisting the coup attempt,"* he said, referring to the parliamentary headquarters in Moscow.

*Mixed reputation.  A bear of a man with a penchant for flamboyant gestures, Mr Yeltsin will perhaps be best remembered around the world for clambering onto a tank sent into Moscow in 1991 by communist hardliners attempting a coup against Mr Gorbachev in the dying days of the Soviet Union.

That defiance galvanised crowds of pro-democracy supporters, ushering in the Soviet collapse in December 1991 and Mr Yeltsin's epic but chaotic eight-year rule as Russia's first democratically-elected president*.   etc  etc 

Faced with the near collapse of the once-mighty Soviet armed forces and social system, Mr Yeltsin tried to drag Russia into the modern age. He forced the bankrupt communist economy to adopt capitalism, unleashed political pluralism and allowed a vibrant, freewheeling media.

That made Mr Yeltsin a hero to many in the west but his reputation increasingly suffered from reports of heavy drinking, secret hospitalisations after heart attacks and launching the disastrous Chechnya war.

*Economic problems  *To this day, an overwhelming majority of Russians blame Mr Yeltsin for Russia's slide from superpower status to economic basket case and second fiddle to the US on the international stage.  His reforms led to rising unemployment, poverty and organised crime.

Tens of millions of people were cast into poverty, while corruption corroded support for democratic reforms.  In 1993, he dismissed Parliament but had to send tanks to enforce his decree.  A year later, he sent troops into Chechnya, which had declared independence. Thousands were killed.

*His presidency was dogged by ill health. In 1996, he had heart surgery*.
In 1998, his economic reforms collapsed.  *Only the rise of Mr Yeltsin's successor, ex-KGB officer Vladimir Putin, has reversed Russia's feelings of humiliation. *
Early life  *Born into a poor peasant family *in an industrial region in the Ural mountains, MrYeltsin lived with his family in one room of a wooden hut. He *studied civil engineering and rose to become a successful construction manager before switching to work for the local Communist party. *

Mr Gorbachev, looking for thrusting managers to re-invigorate Soviet rule, summoned him to Moscow to become the capital's party chief. He was sacked for his maverick style but in 1989, he was elected to the new Soviet Congress of People's Deputies and in June 1991, he was elected president of Russia, still within the Soviet Union, in a landslide.  Two months later, he faced down tanks in the Moscow streets and six months after that, he signed a treaty with the leaders of Ukraine and Belarus abolishing the Soviet Union altogether.

Mr Yeltsin, triumphant, became president of a sovereign Russia.

Retirement.  *Mr Yeltsin's deteriorating health ultimately forced him to step aside in favour of then prime minister Putin*. ...on New Year's Eve, 1999, putting Mr Putin in his place in a long-planned retreat from public view.

*He had the distinction of becoming the first Russian leader to step down voluntarily.* 
One of Mr Putin's first acts in office was to grant Mr Yeltsin immunity from prosecution, sparing him the fury of *those who blamed him for trading away valuable state assets, starting two bloody wars in Chechnya and allowing the 1998 economic collapse.*

The former president retained many of his privileges as head of state: health care, transportation and a team of personal assistants. Russian press reports said he *lived a quiet life hunting, playing some tennis and reading* in his suburban residence in Barvikha, near Moscow, where he lived with his wife, Naina. 

Former US president Bill Clinton and former German chancellor Helmut Kohl flew to Moscow for Mr Yeltsin's 75th birthday party but the event received little coverage in Russia[/quote]


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## dutchie (29 November 2017)

You know your a nobody, on the world stage, when the markets completely ignore you firing a missile.


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## Wysiwyg (29 November 2017)

He had massive shorts on and the missile launch was supposed to bring the markets down. Looks like he had to cover at a loss. Loser in many ways.


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