# Smart beginnings?



## snowjunior (30 April 2008)

Hey guys, 

Bit of a general one, and hope you can all help me out here. Basically, i'm just getting my feet wet in the markets, and looking to get into trading. 

What i'm wondering now is, what would be the SMARTEST way to start my learning?

The idea of trading for an income (don't ask my starting capital), has me hooked, yet although i'm itching to get into it, i've also gained a healthy fear of how hard, long and daunting this task is likely to be (like years.....maybe my next incarnation ..... but i know that this goal IS possible )

So what would be the best way to get into it? I'm interested in being a short-term technical trader to suit the lifestyle i want (if you're not one yourself i'd still very much value your opinion).

A few options have pricked my ears, most notably the Hometrader course. It's a pricey start (around $7000 which includes software) but it seems to have a lot of support and the biggest draw; FACE-TO-FACE mentoring one-on-one. 
I've also looked at Protrader (cheaper, and tutoring available but you still don't have someone sitting next to you explaining it all). Also, there was a JustShares course for under 1k that didn't include any software tools to help with the charting but basically a homeschooled method of learning. 

The reason i mention some of the courses is that would it be better to fork money to one of these groups for the training, and then building up the knowledge base from that (or even during it) or jumping in both feet and learning from the school of hard knocks?

Anyway, i've read some of the posts and you guys mention quite a number of different software packages and training, but what are the thoughts on the above? (anything at all, but specifically Hometrader if anyone had any experience with them). 

Cheers for the feedback. Apologies for the long post, there is waaaaay too much to talk about just starting out.

D
p.s. if the replies could be objective that would be good. it's nice to see 'this or that' for opinions but WHY 'this or that' is what i'm looking for. cheers again!


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## Trembling Hand (30 April 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*

Here we go 

Looked at their site for 1 min and here is the bottom line. They are being very dishonest. Sounds simple when put in a web site but this is a complex strategy to get right.

First mistake,



> Reduced Market Risk - Perhaps the biggest benefit of pairs trading is the near complete removal of market risk




Incorrect. You have two leveraged positions that is risky. Sounds like a good idea but in practise this is not a technique for the new trader.

No mention of cost of carrying two leveraged position that are going to eat away at your account.


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## tech/a (1 May 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*

Search Hometrader with the seach function.
100s of pages.

Oh if it was that easy youd be seeing 100s of posters on forums telling you how they lead the goodlife thanks to hometrader education.


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## snowjunior (1 May 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*

Ah, my bad on that one. Wasn't the most specific when pointing out which hometrading course i meant. Seems i missed the posts on the home trader course  from tech/a before as well. But that was the course i was alluring too. TH i have no idea what course you were looking at but i don't think it was the first one from typing hometrader into google...again, my bad for not being specific. 

I'm sure there is some eye-rolling going on with a newbie thinking he can make millions from some basic course. I'm very well aware this isn't the case, and very much agree that if i decide to take this path that it's not going to be easy at all and will most definately involve losses while learning the 'trade'. 

What i'm asking is is this a smart way to start (doing a course like this, or any other and continuing the reading/studying) or would it be smarter to just continue reading, gathering info and speaking to a myriad of traders and then just jump and start learning with hands on?

I think i agree with whoever said 'it's hard to know where to start if you don't know what you want to learn'.


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## Timmy (1 May 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*

Instead of spending *$5,000*, or *$6,000*, or *$7,000* or whatever on a course/software or whatever why don't you spend a lot less (I mean a LOT LESS, around two hundred dollars) for what that will give you a great introduction and even give an insight on what questions to ask the vendors before deciding to do a *multi-thousand dollar* course?


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## snowjunior (1 May 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*

Cheers for the quick reply. So what would be the recommendations then for learning to become a short-term technical trader? 

I guess my fear at the moment is, i get myself an introduction, buy some solid software for tech charting, and spend way more time losing money and running back and forth between a lot of different people with (probably) differing views asking for help, when i could have still got the introduction, paid a little more upfront (5,6,7k) for some hands-on, guided training and THEN use that to launch from. All the while with some backup from people following the same sort of rules as myself.


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## prawn_86 (1 May 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*

Why not just spend some time reading, paper trading and learning from many different sources FOR FREE rather than wasting your money?

Also, getting different views will help with the overall macro picture.

6k goes a long way when your starting out.

I dived in feet first with 5k and zero knowledge nearly 3yrs ago and im still going strong


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## Trembling Hand (1 May 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*

Come on guys this dude is doing either two things,

Spamming or,

Just wanting the easy "do this course, flick this switch, watch bucket fill up with money, spend 90% of your time snowboarding in Whistler" 

If he had a true need to be "in" the market you wouldn't have to tell him to read a couple of books and open a small account. You wouldn't be able to hold him back!! He would want to know about EVERY method. And enjoy spending years learning.
Sorry for being bluntly aggressive but this game is hard (trading for an income). It requires years of learning and practise. Anyone that wants a short cut with a quick course will just be another of the 90%.


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## alwaysLearning (1 May 2008)

*Re: Smart beginnings*



Trembling Hand said:


> Sorry for being bluntly aggressive but this game is hard (trading for an income). It requires years of learning and practise. Anyone that wants a short cut with a quick course will just be another of the 90%.




Hey dude, I've been reading your blog and it's a real eye opener for me. How long did you spend researching various trading methodologies etc and general testing with 'play money'/paper trading before you took the plunge into full time trading?

I'm looking at spending 5 years lol, before I make that jump. (will take me that long to build the capital base necessary anyway).

I've just gotten myself a copy of metastock version 9 and I'm going to spend some time learning how to use it. I've done some searching and found a site whre I can download some free asx data that I can import into the program.

I must admit that without putting real money on the line, learning about trading is really fun 

I'm also going to buy some course material from Radge when I've got more of a clue.


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## Trembling Hand (1 May 2008)

About 4 years trading until i hit on a consistent method and profitability. Have now been trading about 3 yr full time(I think)

Your approach is what I was banging on about in the last post. You are already up and running, enjoying the learning process with the idea way in the back ground of trading for income. That is the way to go about it IMO. Not the short course to riches method.


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## cookiedude (1 May 2008)

> I must admit that without putting real money, learning about trading is really fun.




All very true, however the moment you do put up real money everything changes (no matter how much you learned etc). 

My advice: start small (with $ you can afford to loose) and research, research and research some more before buying shares. I always find it amazing how much time people are willing to spend researching home appliances (i.e. when buying a new fridge or TV etc). Yet when it comes to shares they just buy and hope.


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## snowjunior (1 May 2008)

Of course, that's it i'm spamming, a sucker and a 95% statistic. 

You said you spent 4yrs trading until you have started making consistant profits, and for that i applaude you. In your hindsight though, do you think you would have been better off doing a course and think it could have saved you money or do you think your way is better? (honest question)

In those 4 yrs how much did you lose to learn to be profitable? ie (and i'm sure to be corrected but for discussions sake)

4 years practice - $10-20k loss overall to then start making profits in the next 3 years. 

or...

spend 6k upfront, do a course, learn as you go, paper trade until ready, and then get into it? As this thread is about, i'm not looking for a QUICK way i'm looking for a SMART way...seems everyone is jumping the gun..

Thoughts?


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## doctorj (1 May 2008)

snowjunior said:


> 6k upfront, do a course, learn as you go, paper trade until ready, and then get into it? As this thread is about, i'm not looking for a QUICK way i'm looking for a SMART way...seems everyone is jumping the gun..



There's no easy way to learn the markets.  There is no holy grail and there are certainly no shortcuts.  

Optimal methods & the learning curve are all unique to each and every individual.  There's no one-size-fits-all approach that will work as everyone's circumstances, psychology and prior experiences are different.

There's no doubt that people learn some things from these courses, but the question is how much is that worth and is the value you're likely to get out of it anything like doing the hard yards yourself.

A very telling statistic is that of all the very successful traders/investors on this forum how many are recommending your thousands are best spent on a course?  It's always newbies and first posters that want to find out about courses.


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## Andy_aus (1 May 2008)

Listen to everyone mate, so you dont become the other 95% statistic

I think what everyone is getting at is that its more worthwhile to spend a few hundred on books, than to burn 6k learning about trading.  In my experience most of the stuff you learn in those 6k courses you can pick up from books anyway.    

Other thoughts that come to my mind is... How do you know that the trading system that you have learnt suits your personality?, Do they tell you the success rate of their "program" before joining?  

Ive only been trading for a year now and im still trying to find a methodology which works for me, so im probably not in the best position to give u advice.   But i havent spent money on any courses either.  There is plenty of cheap awesome info out there.  Just my 2 cents


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## prawn_86 (1 May 2008)

Once again echoing others sentiments.

Using my own example, why dont you just put that 6k the course would cost, conservatively into the market and see how long you can last and learn first hand. My 5k from 2.5yrs ago is still around and im still learning every day.

A course (any course) will just be a summary of what you can find for free in books. 

Also, totally agree with Andy re: finding a style to suit yourself, rather than forcing yourself to do a way a course teaches


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## snowjunior (1 May 2008)

Okay, some sage advice. 

Cheers for the replies guys. I look forward to starting the journey. 

I'm sure there are heaps already, but anyone got any links they could quickly throw this way with some more solid starting references/books for the tech side of trading?


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## professor_frink (1 May 2008)

snowjunior said:


> Okay, some sage advice.
> 
> Cheers for the replies guys. I look forward to starting the journey.
> 
> I'm sure there are heaps already, but anyone got any links they could quickly throw this way with some more solid starting references/books for the tech side of trading?




here's a few threads that has some ideas on books from members - 

what stockmarket books should I read

good TA books - any suggestions

books on technical analysis


And of course the first stop when looking to buy any of these books should be the ASF Bookshop


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## nioka (1 May 2008)

snowjunior said:


> Okay, some sage advice.
> 
> Cheers for the replies guys. I look forward to starting the journey.
> 
> I'm sure there are heaps already, but anyone got any links they could quickly throw this way with some more solid starting references/books for the tech side of trading?



 I've read lots of books on investing and trading over the years. I think you will learn more by reading company announcements, balance sheets etc and follow ASF posts (with reservation at times) than you will learn from some of the expensive courses and a lot of books on the subject. Read all you can but be careful that you don't waste money on some advice that you can get for free.

 PS.  Sometimes advice is free because that is all it is worth.


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## Timmy (1 May 2008)

nioka said:


> PS.  Sometimes advice is free because that is all it is worth.




And unfortunately the reverse does NOT apply; the advice you pay $7,000 for is not worth anything like that.


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## Trembling Hand (1 May 2008)

snowjunior said:


> You said you spent 4yrs trading until you have started making consistant profits, and for that i applaude you. In your hindsight though, do you think you would have been better off doing a course and think it could have saved you money or do you think your way is better? (honest question)..




No. I have seen the stuff these guys flog(for thousands) and its has less to offer than share trading 101 gumpf.



snowjunior said:


> In those 4 yrs how much did you lose to learn to be profitable? ie (and i'm sure to be corrected but for discussions sake)
> 
> 4 years practice - $10-20k loss overall to then start making profits in the next 3 years.
> 
> ...




In that time I blew just under *$80,000*. Not only trading losses but also data, software, computers, brokerage, books, subscriptions, accounting fees & legals. I know because I have always traded as a biz and always keep full details. That also was 4 years probably taking a good few hours most days away from productive working time. How much would I estimate that cost me, a lot more.


Looking back I would have made a thousand changes, of course. But number one would of been to find a mentor that had  proof that they are trading profitably and willing to lend a hand in guiding me in the right direction. If I was in the US or UK I would join a prop shop to be around real traders. Not slippery sales people looking to flog a course in trading education set up for the starry eyed punter.

If you really want to know what steps you should take find a coach. Just like any performance task (musician, sports person, chess player....)
Not a salesman selling you drums, tennis racquets, chess sims, or holly grail trading courses!!

Rant, Rant........


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## adamim1 (1 May 2008)

Well I am also new.

The way i have chosen to learn is to start by visiting this forum. I read through the forums here which gives you a starting point of what sort of things i could be investing in (RP, potash etc). I actually went through a heap of different threads then would look them up on the ASX and do some research on the forums and other sites. I remember seeing MAK @ 22c and putting it on my watch list and watch it go up and up, i eventually got in @ $2. I've also made it a habit to watch the market and share prices everyday on particular companies. I eventually want to do a stockbroking course to get my head around some specifics stuff, but i've just invested small amounts into different companies to sort of practice. I eventually want to be able to understand the market and make charts etc, but all comes with time.


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## snowjunior (1 May 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Looking back I would have made a thousand changes, of course. But number one would of been to find a mentor that had  proof that they are trading profitably and willing to lend a hand in guiding me in the right direction.
> 
> If you really want to know what steps you should take find a coach. Just like any performance task (musician, sports person, chess player....)




Okay, i'm sure you know my next question then..

How do i go about finding a mentor? i'm in adelaide so anyone around there that could spare some time?


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## Trembling Hand (1 May 2008)

I will be in Adelaide tomorrow but will be busy drinking red wine and eating until I fall over 

 what you first need is a touch of experience with some general knowledge that you can get with a couple of books.


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## Wysiwyg (1 May 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> *If you really want to know what steps you should take find a coach*. Just like any performance task (musician, sports person, chess player....)
> Not a salesman selling you drums, tennis racquets, chess sims, or holly grail trading courses!!
> 
> Rant, Rant........




What an excellent piece of advice.  Life coaches (not sharemarket) I know of are $123 an hour so to make good use of `one on one`tuition be sure to have all your questions and subjects organised beforehand.

Are there any one on one share market coaches in Australia?


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## sleepy (1 May 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> In that time *I blew just under* *$80,000*. Not only trading losses but also data, software, computers, brokerage, books, subscriptions, accounting fees & legals. *I know because I have always traded as a biz and always keep full details.* That also was 4 years probably taking a good few hours most days away from productive working time. How much would I estimate that cost me, a lot more.
> 
> 
> Looking back I would have made a thousand changes, of course. But number one would of been to *find a mentor that had  proof that they are trading profitably and willing to lend a hand* in guiding me in the right direction. If I was in the US or UK I would join a prop shop to be around real traders. Not slippery sales people looking to flog a course in trading education set up for the starry eyed punter.




Great post, TH.

sleepy


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## nizar (1 May 2008)

doctorj said:


> A very telling statistic is that of all the very successful traders/investors on this forum how many are recommending your thousands are best spent on a course?  It's always newbies and first posters that want to find out about courses.




Very good point.

I think the reason behind this is because most people want to be successful without doing the work. Reminds me of a Jessie Livermore quote I read the other day.

You can't just pay the money and get places quicker. Doesn't work that way if you want to be successful in the markets.


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## professor_frink (1 May 2008)

snowjunior said:


> Okay, i'm sure you know my next question then..
> 
> How do i go about finding a mentor? i'm in adelaide so anyone around there that could spare some time?




In the wonderful age we live in, what with microwaves, cordless telephones and the internet, you don't necessarily have to go out and find a mentor you can have meetings with.

Once you've sat down and read a couple of books and are starting to get an idea of where you want to go with your trading, you can come to a forum like this one, find someone that is where you want to be and start asking a few questions


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## nizar (1 May 2008)

professor_frink said:


> Once you've sat down and read a couple of books and are starting to get an idea of where you want to go with your trading, you can come to a forum like this one, find someone that is where you want to be and start asking a few questions




Tend to agree -- This is exactly what I did.


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## Wysiwyg (1 May 2008)

nizar said:


> Very good point.
> 
> I think the reason behind this is because most people want to be successful without doing the work. Reminds me of a Jessie Livermore quote I read the other day.
> 
> You can't just pay the money and get places quicker. Doesn't work that way if you want to be successful in the markets.




Hi nizar , I`m wondering if you would like to share what your reasoning is behind that quote by Jesse L. Why does it not work that way?Is it because of unwritten rules within the system that evryone `has` to abide by.


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## nizar (1 May 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Hi nizar , I`m wondering if you would like to share what your reasoning is behind that quote by Jesse L. Why does it not work that way?Is it because of unwritten rules within the system that evryone `has` to abide by.




I cant remember exactly how the quote goes, I think I read it on somebodys signature on a forum (not sure if its this one).

It goes something like, the average punter does not want to put in any work, or any research, at all. What they are after is somebody to tell them exactly what to do in order to make money.


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## nizar (1 May 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Hi nizar , I`m wondering if you would like to share what your reasoning is behind that quote by Jesse L. Why does it not work that way?Is it because of unwritten rules within the system that evryone `has` to abide by.




You can't just pay the money and get places quicker. Doesn't work that way if you want to be successful in the markets.

Please note that: The above, which after reading your post again I gather is probably what you are referring to, is PURELY MY OPINION.


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## snowjunior (11 May 2008)

Hey guys,

Just thought i'd post an update to the start of my journey.

First of all, i'd like to say a thankyou for the advice given in the last few posts.

I forgot about doing any sort of course, and realize now after reading some more books (currently soaking up Darryl Guppy's Approach to Sharetrading, and also his Trend techniques (just to start with) that i don't need to. Also downloaded Incredicharts for free and have been monitoring and learning with the free EOD data they provide. 

Reason for this now, is that after checking out the Hometrader seminar and speaking with them one-on-one about it, i received an email and a callback (as although keen to get started, was not keen on $7000 payment) asking if i wanted to go back for another chat. 

Basically, they were willing to knock $2500 OFF THE PRICE of the course for a 'once-off' deal.  ($1500 off the course, and $990 weekend short course for free)

Made me wonder how many people forked out 7k just after the seminar.

Anyway, told them 'no thanks' and left it at that. Will stick with the books, free data, and opinions/thoughts on the forums to develop my own style and go from there. Thought any other beginners would be interested to know. 

Snow.


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## professor_frink (13 May 2008)

snowjunior said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Just thought i'd post an update to the start of my journey.
> 
> ...




Snow,

check your PM box!


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## Michael9 (15 May 2008)

I'm very new too and have all the same questions you do. I wish I'd known about this site in particular before spending my money ($3800) on  daily CFD and trader reports . One thing I find important is that there is enjoyment and satisfaction in the learning itself. The incentive of acquiring enough knowledge to get into overall positive territory is powerful but if it's likely to be a while before people like you and me get the expertise and confidence of senior site members. In the meantime, enjoying the learning (and in a supportive environment) is a considerable side benefit.


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