# Chinese Take Away



## CAB SAV (30 August 2008)

Interested to know if shares of a company that have Chinese buy in, out perform ones in the same sector, or from the Chinese point of view, do they care, are they just after the commodity/product?


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## deadset (2 September 2008)

In my opinion : 

A company will usually go up *during *a buy in, no matter who.

What happens after the purchase, depends on what they say they will do with that afterwards and the percentage they control and also how big the company is to start with.

If they do it to simply reduce their contract prices or to fix the contract prices, you'd think the share price would have to go down then.  But if they expand capacity and volume of product that the company can move, then I think it would have to go up.

It's hard to generalise, for everything I say, I'm sure there are exceptions.


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## CAB SAV (17 February 2009)

CAB SAV said:


> Interested to know if shares of a company that have Chinese buy in, out perform ones in the same sector, or from the Chinese point of view, do they care, are they just after the commodity/product?




Answering my own question. They are not interested in playing the market to make a profit, they are simply after the commodity. RIO, OZ, scores of other smaller companies will strenthen their supply/national security and we will keep selling our best assets.


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## nulla nulla (17 February 2009)

Kevin Rudd should tell RIO and OZL that the Australian Future fund will stump up the funds proposed to be obtained from China: 

1. For the same degree of representation on the board of RIO and equity in the premium mines; and 
2. To take over OZL, sacking the executive management and directors, replacing them with someone more transparent.

Both companies should continue on the market. Prices for materials would be competitively set by market competition and not by Chinese government.
Materials prices will eventually recover, and normally so would the share price of ozl.

Australia's future would be better than if we sell the farm to china. If China gets the degree of control they are aiming for, they will gradually bring in their own management teams, their own workers (no Australian workers or Unions) and their own capital equipment. This needs to be nipped in the bud now.


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## prawn_86 (17 February 2009)

Nice thread.

As i said in the OZL thread, and have said for a while now, China has a long term plan. Im talking a 50 - 100 year plan, and it involves slowly takings over the West from the inside. They are taking over our assets etc without the need to even go to war. Western govs are too shot sighted and too focused on the next election to see, or care, what is happening.

One day the West will wake up and realise it owns nothing and Team America will try to go to war only to be decimated, or one day China will simply say, ok we want to call our loans in now...

Hats off to the Chinese, they know what they are doing. And in a way us 'Westerners' are partly at fault for having a political machine that is useless and has stupid people at the top. But nothing will change because we 'Westerners' are too apathetic


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## nulla nulla (17 February 2009)

It is only a question of scale and timing:

Westerners think on a scale of what is in it for me now, or the company profitability for this year and next year. Westerners think in the development of a few mines as controlled by various companies.

The Chinese are looking well into the future of dwindling resources and a need to provide for their ever expanding population. They are looking at global resources, over a very extented timetable and being able to acquire or control them for their own benefit.

The Chinese are not looking at global resources from the perspective of developing them and selling them at market to the highest bidders. 
If we do not exercise some form of management and control on the extraction and sale of the mineral resources of Australia, eventually they will be owned by other countries and the economic benefits of mining will no longer exist for Australia.


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## nomore4s (17 February 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> One day the West will wake up and realise it owns nothing and Team America will try to go to war only to be decimated, or one day China will simply say, ok we want to call our loans in now...
> 
> Hats off to the Chinese, they know what they are doing. And in a way us 'Westerners' are partly at fault for having a political machine that is useless and has stupid people at the top. But nothing will change because we 'Westerners' are too apathetic




Nice post Prawn.

The problem is the Wests greed and short sighted views have now put it in position where it needs China to buy up its debt and bail out these companies that have leveraged themselves to the eyeballs.

We are seeing the fall of one empire and the rise of another imo, will be interesting to see it all play out.


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## CanOz (17 February 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> The Chinese are looking well into the future of dwindling resources and a need to provide for their ever expanding population.




Chinese population gorwth has actually slowed with the bite of the one child policy. 

China is simply looking after its own, something the US could learn from. 

Cheers,


CanOz


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## Julia (17 February 2009)

I'm interested to read these views.  It's what I've been thinking, but have been afraid to express for fear of being told I'm being paranoid and lack understanding of global forces.

I like the idea of using the Future Fund as suggested.


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## Agentm (17 February 2009)

dont agree at all nomore

china is cashed up from its one major resource.. abundant cheap labor markets, sure they will go through a cycle and be making all the cars one day and sure they will continue to be the focal point of capitalisms mechanism for attaining profit through exploiting their labor markets, but there is no social reform, no implementation of pension systems nor any sign or  demonstration of political,  social and economic reform.  socially and economically,  the ability to control growth, to regulate incomes, to control the divide of the poor from the rich.. it may seem like prudent economics to plow money into chinese manufacturing, but will the cycle turn?  the ecomony in china imho is dependant on the economies of all nations that they sell into, and to manage a cheap labor force within its borders.. you not seeing reguees flooding into china from around the world? why is that??

they have the golden days of growth, but will they pull through and be able to deveolp into a strong industrialised nation?? politically? socially?? how long can all these delicate balances be  maintained?

china has a very difficult road ahead.  

if it becomes a fully developed nation, then along with it will come the responsibilities to their people, their health, their environment..

as for the laws of the land, its an extremely difficult place to get justice, why would you put all you cash into an economy like that where you have no remedy to clear a dispute, to enforce an order, to demand justice.. 

how many chinese manufacturers are taken to task, are litigated against? you can produce milk products with malamine in it, yet face no mass law suits like we see in the west, no insurances for them, no protection  for the consumer in the west.. for a nation to be exempt from compensation.. its a very strange state of affairs we are developing in china


its not at all as black and white to me as others see it..


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## CanOz (17 February 2009)

nomore4s said:


> We are seeing the fall of one empire and the rise of another imo, will be interesting to see it all play out.




Exactly, defineatly a changing of the guard.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## CanOz (17 February 2009)

Agentm said:


> dont agree at all nomore
> 
> china is cashed up from its one major resource.. abundant cheap labor markets, sure they will go through a cycle and be making all the cars one day and sure they will continue to be the focal point of capitalisms mechanism for attaining profit through exploiting their labor markets, but there is no social reform, no implementation of pension systems nor any sign or  demonstration of political,  social and economic reform.  socially and economically,  the ability to control growth, to regulate incomes, to control the divide of the poor from the rich.. it may seem like prudent economics to plow money into chinese manufacturing, but will the cycle turn?  the ecomony in china imho is dependant on the economies of all nations that they sell into, and to manage a cheap labor force within its borders.. you not seeing reguees flooding into china from around the world? why is that??
> 
> ...




The Governments main objective is social stability. They will continue to reform all of thier systems as fast as they can. Personally i think they are doing a fantastic job of managing 1.3 billion people.

Expats are returning to China in droves. Although this has slowed lately due to the decrease in employment, especially in the south.

You've got to give them some credit, they are manging their economy better than most other emerging markets.

CanOz


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## nomore4s (17 February 2009)

Agentm said:


> dont agree at all nomore
> 
> china is cashed up from its one major resource.. abundant cheap labor markets, sure they will go through a cycle and be making all the cars one day and sure they will continue to be the focal point of capitalisms mechanism for attaining profit through exploiting their labor markets, but there is no social reform, no implementation of pension systems nor any sign or  demonstration of political,  social and economic reform.  socially and economically,  the ability to control growth, to regulate incomes, to control the divide of the poor from the rich.. it may seem like prudent economics to plow money into chinese manufacturing, but will the cycle turn?  the ecomony in china imho is dependant on the economies of all nations that they sell into, and to manage a cheap labor force within its borders.. you not seeing reguees flooding into china from around the world? why is that??
> 
> ...




I do agree that it won't be all black & white and China will have its share of growth problems but you are looking at it through western eyes imo. The chinese will govern in a totally different way to western societies - just because they become a developed nation doesn't mean they will have to be governed like the west. They will make the hard decisions even if it means pain for some of its people. They will take a bigger picture view and not bow to minority groups and political correctness.

The problem the west now have is we rely heavily on China, even if they to a point rely on us. But I think they are fast reaching a point where internal growth and development will push them along till the west recovers.



CanOz said:


> The Governments main objective is social stability. They will continue to reform all of thier systems as fast as they can. Personally i think they are doing a fantastic job of managing 1.3 billion people.
> 
> Expats are returning to China in droves. Although this has slowed lately due to the decrease in employment, especially in the south.
> 
> ...




I agree


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## nomore4s (17 February 2009)

Agentm said:


> you not seeing reguees flooding into china from around the world? why is that??



China would probably not take them anyway, they brought in a policy to limit population growth so I can't see them taking in refugees, China will not be like the wests bleeding hearts and help for the sake of helping.



> if it becomes a fully developed nation, then along with it will come the responsibilities to their people, their health, their environment..



Don't they already have responsibilities to their people and their health? Again I think you are comparing this to western standards and ideals.



> as for the laws of the land, its an extremely difficult place to get justice, why would you put all you cash into an economy like that where you have no remedy to clear a dispute, to enforce an order, to demand justice..



Again comparing it to western versions of justice but I wouldn't call some of the penalties our courts dish out justice anyway. While China may be too far to one side we are without a doubt too far the other way.



> how many chinese manufacturers are taken to task, are litigated against? you can produce milk products with malamine in it, yet face no mass law suits like we see in the west, no insurances for them, no protection  for the consumer in the west.. for a nation to be exempt from compensation.. its a very strange state of affairs we are developing in china



Again from a western point of view, is it a bad thing that there are no mass law suits? There are consquences to this sort of thing in China but not the consequences we are used to seeing, these sort of things will be stamped out quickly in China when they arise imo.


I've worked for a company that has factories over in China and have visted a factory over there, the quality control was as high as any other factory any where else in the world and the goods produced were extremely high quality. But this depends on the company and its procedures and you will have rogue operators who do things on the cheap like any other country.


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## Aussiejeff (17 February 2009)

nulla nulla said:


> ...The Chinese are looking well into the future of dwindling resources and a need to provide for their ever expanding population. They are looking at global resources, over a very extented timetable and being able to acquire or control them for their own benefit...




The Chinese are looking at what the mirror on the wall might tell them 20 years from now...

Q: "Who's the _biggest, richest_ economy of all?"
Mirror: "Why, CHINA, of course!"

Q: "Who's got the _mightiest, most powerful_ army of all?"
Mirror: "Why, CHINA, of course!"

Q: "Who's got _the most resources_ of all?"
Mirror: "Why, CHINA owns them all, of course!"    

Q: "Who's the winner of the World's Biggest Poker Game?"
Mirror: "Why, CHINA of course!"


Game over, man. Game OVER-R-R! 

I'll have 3 pork dumplings, 2 chow meins & a dozen chopsticks. Ta.


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## Bushman (17 February 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> The Chinese are looking at what the mirror on the wall might tell them 20 years from now...
> 
> Q: "Who's the _biggest, richest_ economy of all?"
> Mirror: "Why, CHINA, of course!"
> ...





LOL. 

You do, however, have to add: who owns all the US treasuries in the world? China. Yanks are gonna hit them where it hurts by pumping trillions of dollars into the system. So can China keep buying treasuries now that the US consumer have taken it between the eyes?  If they don't, the Chinese 'illusion' of a trade suprlus is toast. What then? 

Also can they keep the yuan artificially pegged to a US-dollar that is hell bent on depreciating? 

Yanks still have a few chips on the table and both are all in. Who holds the Ace? 

Isn't it cool this superpower stuff!


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## lusk (17 February 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Nice thread.
> 
> 
> One day the West will wake up and realise it owns nothing and Team America will try to go to war only to be decimated, or one day China will simply say, ok we want to call our loans in now...




Or one day China will wake up and realise that the ultimate currency is OIL not $US dollars, who holds the oil will win.


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## Agentm (17 February 2009)

Bushman said:


> LOL.
> 
> You do, however, have to add: who owns all the US treasuries in the world? China. Yanks are gonna hit them where it hurts by pumping trillions of dollars into the system. So can China keep buying treasuries now that the US consumer have taken it between the eyes?  If they don't, the Chinese 'illusion' of a trade suprlus is toast. What then?
> 
> ...




well said


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## Agentm (17 February 2009)

CanOz said:


> The Governments main objective is social stability. They will continue to reform all of thier systems as fast as they can. Personally i think they are doing a fantastic job of managing 1.3 billion people.
> 
> Expats are returning to China in droves. Although this has slowed lately due to the decrease in employment, especially in the south.
> 
> ...




i give them credit for exploiting their one major resource, the determined exploitation of cheap labor.

i give the west no credit for exploiting them

consumerism will follow its natural path, china needs to power up this machine, that will costs... currently power is given preference to industry over the populace.. and at the expense of the chinese citizens and their health and well being... we all turn a blind eye to how exploited this nation is, and everyone is aware of how these provinces in china have control of their labor forces and how you have to deals not directly with the manufacturer but many bureaus and bureaucrats. there is so much margin in exploiting the offerings of china that its near impossible to resist.. but will it be the way of the future, will china always be the one to exploit, will the people themselves become more socially aware and not wish to act as the puppet for greed?

i have seen how they house these people in these massive factory complexes, how they pay the poor shocking wages and how they charge them back at premium rates for a bunk in a bunk complex.. they leave with little after being exploited, there is always another eager displaced peasant farmer, or one of the millions of desperate and poor migrating workforce that moves on and on from place to place..

once you strip the farmers of their land, and once you make postcodes in the rice fields, there is always a social consequence for it.

we dont feel any guilt for the way the workers are treated in china, the world is not comfortable with china and will not step on their toes about their human rights violations..

its a very small number of extremely powerful individuals who are exploiting all that they can before them.. there is no accountability or justice system in china. 

i think one day capitalism and its effects in china will be judged in a very different way.. 

we all ship our waste to china, and we never question what china does with it and how it may be reprocessed back into our foodchain..

by allowing the majority of manufacturing to be processed in an unregulated country really is opening up a tin of worms imho..


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## CanOz (17 February 2009)

Agentm said:


> i give them credit for exploiting their one major resource, the determined exploitation of cheap labor.
> 
> i give the west no credit for exploiting them
> 
> ...




Mate, all i can say tothat lot of horse manure is that YOU have NO IDEA what you are taking about what so ever!

You have been listening to western media for too long my friend.

Chinese labor laws are currently among the most socialist in the world. Casual labor is now being paid better than permanent labor in take home pay. So much so that our permanents are complaining. Many large multinationals have excellent accomodation for thier workers. Also, the State owned enterprises are very socialist in nature and provide food and housing for thier workers.

The law here prosecutes serious corporate criminals with death. Thats more than we can say for Western countries that almost laugh at white collar crime.

Its true they have a long way to go with corruption, but so does the US (duh, banks!)...on and on...the whole GWB government should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity for gods sake man!

This country is changing fast and your views are old and outdated.

CanOz


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