# Trading Psychology



## Steve Arthur (12 November 2010)

I'm not new to this forum, but until recently I have never had a good look around it.

I have to say there are some very experienced and knowledgeable people on this forum and there is a wealth of information to be had.

However as usual, most of the talk and interest is focused on the strategy or system, not on the psychology of trading.
Why there is no forum for psychology as there is for strategies and systems?

If you search the word psychology in the posts titles on this forum, you get 13 results.

If you search the word system you get 43 results.

If you search the word strategies you 62 results.

The results, as they say speak for themselves.

In his book super trader Van Tharp talks about a workshop he did 1990, with Market wizards Ed Seykota and Tom Basso.

"All 3 of them agreed that psychology contributes to 60% to success, position sizing 30% and system development 10%.  And that most traders ignore the first 2 and don’t really have a system anyway, that’s why 90% fail".

19 years later, he argues that psychology now counts for 100% of trading success and I for one agree with him.

So why aren’t there more threads on psychology? 

The same reason why there aren’t more successful traders I guess.

I have placed this thread in the strategy section as there is nowhere else to put it.


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## Trembling Hand (12 November 2010)

Whats the best way to look after your trading Psychology????

Have a system that you know is profitable and when its profitable or not (strategy). And how to apply it to milk the most out of it while staying relatively save (Money Man).

Whats the best way to sell a book, system, course or con a skilless newbie? Talk about Psychology being the most important. Thats just my most humble opinion.


Carry on.


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## tech/a (12 November 2010)

> “Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance” – Will Durant




And the more I see these lead threads the more Educated I become.



> Whats the best way to sell a book, system, course or con a skilless newbie? Talk about Psychology being the most important.




and the more educated I become.


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## Boggo (12 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> 19 years later, he argues that psychology now counts for 100% of trading success and I for one agree with him.
> 
> So why aren’t there more threads on psychology?




Worthwhile reading 'Trading to Win' by Ari Kiev, he discusses the psychology of operating outside of your everyday comfort zone.
http://www.booko.com.au/books

Education = behaviour modified by experience.


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## professor_frink (12 November 2010)

Would love to hear some more about this Steve.

What would you say the main psychological issues are that will make me a better trader?


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## Steve Arthur (12 November 2010)

Yes, thanks guys, keep em coming.


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## professor_frink (12 November 2010)

my question was a genuine one

You've implied a correlation between trading success and the amount of time devoted to talking about trading psychology on a forum.

Out of curiousity, I'd like to hear what specific topics you think haven't been already addressed on the forum, and which psychological issues there are that I should address to become a better trader?


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## tech/a (12 November 2010)

While I think your being sincere Prof.
I also think you should treat ALL spam the same.
There IS hidden agenda here.

11 posts!!!


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## professor_frink (12 November 2010)

tech/a said:


> While I think your being sincere Prof.
> I also think you should treat ALL spam the same.
> There IS hidden agenda here.
> 
> 11 posts!!!




ooh I didn't get that far into the site, to be honest I didn't get past the cliched posts on the front page before going elsewhere! I did learn that I am unique though, so it wasn't a complete waste of time.

We can't really ban Steve based on the fact that he is a trading coach and selling his wares via his site, but I am now much more interested in an answer to my questions now that I know the person answering charges $6K a year for his mentoring services!


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## Dowdy (12 November 2010)

I would suggest you find books on Behavioural Finance.

You can download ebooks on the net


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## tech/a (12 November 2010)

mate

I'm not suggesting he should be banned.
But recognised for what his agenda is.

I too would be interested but I doubt he will expose himself to serious discussion
by members of this forum.
Quoting regurgitated material from known educators is pretty average in my view.
I doubt there would be anything original---if there was he would have lead with it.

Happy to take part but my personal view is that the psychological argument is an excuse based premise pulled out of the hat when hind site is applied.
Psychology is fine until you look back at the what if's---woulda's coulda's shoulda's.


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## Steve Arthur (12 November 2010)

I have been a member of this forum for almost 2 years, during this time I have read and followed others of a similar occupation to me. 

I have always had a high level of respect for the main contributors to this forum. It was never my intention to deceive.  

The hidden agenda was only to aspire to the same level respect of some of the others that have made this forum the quality it is today.   Of course this would have been positive for my coaching business.

I feel I have been unfairly vilified after a couple of posts.  I merely made an observation that people focus too much on strategy/system and ignore or are unaware of their psychological behaviour, to their detriment.

I will remove my blog link immediately, if that is an issue and will continue to contribute to the forum if I am given the same respect.


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## nielsend (12 November 2010)

I've been trading for nearly 6 years, part time to start with and now full-time for 3 + years. Read all the so called 'must read' psychology books on trading; Trading in the Zone, Trade your way to financial freedom, blah blah blah. Even did a Van Tharp course in Sydney a couple of years ago? 
The only psychology that has helped me is: a) study the markets until the cows come home and get to know a particular trading product's behavior inside and out, and b) start winning. The last one being the most important of all. Forget about trying to wipe away all your emotions, you'll end up being a zombie. And there is no spiritual zone that you can tap into, just good old discipline and buckets of hard work.
As TH mentioned once, if you intend to become a successful trader based on psychology alone, you'll last to about 10 o'clock.


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## professor_frink (12 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> I have been a member of this forum for almost 2 years, during this time I have read and followed others of a similar occupation to me.
> 
> I have always had a high level of respect for the main contributors to this forum. It was never my intention to deceive.
> 
> ...




Steve,

you can leave the link in your signature, it's really not a problem

Feel free to answer my questions if you want to.


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## Trembling Hand (12 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> I feel I have been unfairly vilified after a couple of posts.  I merely made an observation that people focus too much on strategy/system and ignore or are unaware of their psychological behaviour, to their detriment.




And I and others have just pointed out that we disagree. That strategy/system etc is *it*. Psycho blah blah is just that, blah blah, IMO. You haven't made an argument yet. We would love to here it.


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## Julia (12 November 2010)

Steve, if I were to ask if you'd be kind enough to offer a short summary in explanation of the term "Trading Psychology", what would you offer?

I'm not being dismissive or critical, but am simply unclear as to what exactly you are referring to with this term.

With thanks.

And if you could address Professor Frink's questions, that would also be helpful.


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## Steve Arthur (12 November 2010)

nielsend said:


> I've been trading for nearly 6 years, part time to start with and now full-time for 3 + years. Read all the so called 'must read' psychology books on trading; Trading in the Zone, Trade your way to financial freedom, blah blah blah. Even did a Van Tharp course in Sydney a couple of years ago?
> The only psychology that has helped me is: a) study the markets until the cows come home and get to know a particular trading product's behavior inside and out, and b) start winning. The last one being the most important of all. Forget about trying to wipe away all your emotions, you'll end up being a zombie. And there is no spiritual zone that you can tap into, just good old discipline and buckets of hard work.
> As TH mentioned once, if you intend to become a successful trader based on psychology alone, you'll last to about 10 o'clock.




Nielsend, I whole heartedly agree, study, study, study .  I spent years following charts, hours everyday. Recording and reviewing looking for patterns and monitoring behaviour of the price.

That it itself this requires a mindset of determination and of drive.  But it will not make you a profitable trader in itself, if you are unable to apply what you have observed consistently.

We cannot wipe our emotions,  only be aware of them. (Crikey it's hard not to sound like a clichÃ©!, but it's true, at least it was for me)

I spent 12 years self sabotaging for the thrill of winning and to avoid the pain of losing.

ClichÃ©d or not your psychology influenences your behaviour over every aspect of your trading.

Yes you need a system.

Yes you need hard work and experience.

But without understanding the fact that you are ultimately to blame for your own actions, not your system, not the news, not the software or the broker, not your rules, not the guys on the forum, you.

The psychology of trading that I refer to is your psychology, knowing yourself and how you are programmed to respond to certain situations.
These responses are primitive and can dominate rational thoughts in the decision making parts of the brain.  I believe control is obtained through self awareness, and repeated behaviour. 

The only way I was able to do this was with a trading plan. (Trading plan does not describe what it was to me, it was everything I knew and had done, all my failings as a trader laid bare on paper, for me to read and re read again and again. It was all my mistakes, my behaviour, my goals, things I had read, written down as rules and every time I ignored them, they became tighter and tighter and eventually I was forced to accept the truth, it was all about me.

Overtime it became more important to follow the rules, than to experience the thrills of winning random rewards and it also became painful not to follow my rules.  

So there you have it people, or at least a small description of why I believe that psychology is ultimately to key to success, not the system.  What good is a system or money management, if you cannot control you responses to positive effect?


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## tech/a (12 November 2010)

> The only way I was able to do this was with a trading plan. (Trading plan does not describe what it was to me, it was everything I knew and had done, all my failings as a trader laid bare on paper, for me to read and re read again and again. It was all my mistakes, my behaviour, my goals, things I had read, written down as rules and every time I ignored them, they became tighter and tighter and eventually I was forced to accept the truth, it was all about me.




If you seriously believe this is how a trading "plan" should be constructed or has any place in a trading plan---its just Blah blah blah (Apologies to T/H)



> Overtime it became more important to follow the rules, than to experience the thrills of winning random rewards and it also became painful not to follow my rules.




All your describing is a transition from POOR discretionary trading to poor "Plan Trading"



> So there you have it people, or at least a small description of why I believe that psychology is ultimately to key to success, not the system.  What good is a system or money management, *if you cannot control you responses to positive effect?*




You need self control in ALL aspects of life.
HINT
Don't use a credit card and keep away from pokies.

What good is a positive attitude a non defeatist stance or un emotive decision making if coupled with "your laid bare trading plan??"
How am I the trader more likely to profit on a regular basis?


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## Wysiwyg (12 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> But without understanding the fact that you are ultimately to blame for your own actions, not your system, not the news, not the software or the broker, not your rules, not the guys on the forum, you.



There are from a few up to millions of other people influencing the outcome of any trade. I accept the outcome because the outcome (although I would like the result/outcome to favour me  is out of my control.


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## Steve Arthur (13 November 2010)

tech/a said:


> If you seriously believe this is how a trading "plan" should be constructed or has any place in a trading plan---its just Blah blah blah (Apologies to T/H)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What gives you the right to be so rude and judgemental?

I have judged myself, I know my flaws and my strengths and do pretend otherwise.

Tell me tech/a, you have posted 9,000 posts over many years on this forum, what have you learnt about trading and about yourself as a result?


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## nunthewiser (13 November 2010)

I think he just "psyched" you out bro


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## nunthewiser (13 November 2010)

oh yeah FWIW i also believe one needs the correct mental balance and varying skills that comes with studying varying psycology traits in a  trading enviroment.
have spotted many a bargain or sale indication from reading  and hearing various ppls reactions, thoughts and opinions, can be converted to volume analysis and reading the "herds".

anyways just rambling now so back to the meds.

I believe being the iceman is a load of bollocks tho


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## nulla nulla (13 November 2010)

Trading is "warfare". Until you understand and accept that, you will fail. You want the best approach to "psychology" for trading, read "The Art of War by Sung Tzu".


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## tech/a (13 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> What gives you the right to be so rude and judgemental?




My own experience.



> I have judged myself, I know my flaws and my strengths and do pretend otherwise.




Nor I --I am rude and arrogant to those who perceive me as rude and arrogant.
To others I am direct and cut through the Crap.



> Tell me tech/a, you have posted 9,000 posts over many years on this forum, what have you learnt about trading and about yourself as a result?




Trading like any business practice is very simple to master.
its only the participants who continue to complicate trading and most other business practices.
Trading has sharpened my risk management skills above all else on a personal level.
It is a tremendous study in the stupidity---yet brilliance of herd mentality.
one i will continue to be involved with till the day I take my last breath.


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## Trembling Hand (13 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> So there you have it people, or at least a small description of why I believe that psychology is ultimately to key to success, not the system.  What good is a system or money management, if you cannot control you responses to positive effect?




With all the due respect little i can muster. You have to be kidding???

A **** system or **** MM creates ill effects in your Psychology - in your Mind & Body. You end up throwing your plan out the window on what punters often call 'undisciplined' trades. What is really happening is the start of the delusion that you're doing the right thing, that you are a trader, is being stripped away. Denial is giving way to reality. You stray from the ill fated plan you have set for yourself because you don't know that that plan is one that will ultimate be profitable. Every bad day chips away at your ego until you blow up in 1 of the 1000s of ways to blow up in this gig.

Those that are weak, silly, lazy or unable to get off their ar$e to actually do some real work on a _real _system fall on the psychology band wagon. Others set about doing some work, testing, practicing, simming, reviewing, developing etc.

Why is trading different to any other business, sport, career or life goal? People who spend the time correctly practicing the activity achive gains. Those that talk about the _mystical talents_ of the elite defeating the odds end up making excuses about their own failures till the day they die.


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## professor_frink (13 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> I spent 12 years self sabotaging for the thrill of winning and to avoid the pain of losing.




On your website, and on your public profile on the forum here, you state that you've been trading for 15 years, you are also now saying that you spent 12 of those years "self sabotaging".

So you have a maximum of 3 years of good trading under your belt , and you are marketing yourself as a trading coach, charging people 6K a year for your wisdom, which so far sounds like it has been regurgitated from a $30 book on trading.

Think I'll step aside and leave you to it


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## sails (13 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> What gives you the right to be so rude and judgemental?
> 
> I have judged myself, I know my flaws and my strengths and do pretend otherwise.
> 
> Tell me tech/a, you have posted 9,000 posts over many years on this forum, what have you learnt about trading and about yourself as a result?





Hmmm, I think you will find the answer in those 9,000 posts... 

Tech and many other respected posters have shared their wisdom in their posts and haven't charged a cent for it.

I am immediately skeptical with high priced courses on something as slippery as trading.  I have been caught into such courses in my beginning years of trading only to find it was very expensive pollywaffle.  In my experience, the real gems are found with patience and generally have no price tag.


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## $20shoes (13 November 2010)

"Trading psychology" is a broad brush.

What you often end up with is people clinging to aphorisms that are difficult to distill into practical trading rules. If you have a feeling that in the long term you can still lose in this game, then there is an increased likelihood that you are masking your lack of trading and system preparation with an exaggerated leaning on mental thoroughness, or a lack thereof. 

Learning from your trading journey is important; trading discipline is important - but at its core your goal is to understand how your system works within a market and how and where it seems to actually gives you pretty crappy results; this knowledge is what gives you the preparation to brace for the next losing streak and the understanding of why you make profits when you do.

I think this whole umbrella called trading psychology often echoes  just another variation on the same theme. You can espouse an important point and I can know it for its truth but I can acknowledge its truth all the way to bankruptcy. What has been one trader's experience has not helped me make money at all. 
Like "did you know it hurts when you lose someone close to you"?
"Yes, it does"  - we can say yes even if we have never lost someone close to us. I can continue saying yes everyday and be no closer to understanding sorrow.

It's important to grow as a trader as it is important to grow as a person. A general self-help book gives me concepts but it doesn't do jack when it comes to changing who i am or who I want to become.

(Holy cow - i think the above is psychobabble - how ironic). 

by the way, i'm starting a little trading business soon. Landing page - 

"Im going to take 5 grand of your money just for the hell of it. You wont get rich very quickly at all actually because we have to watch our bet size, and its not really up to me; the market kinda dictates how well we'll go from day to day. You're gonna lose a hell of a lot more times than you win. Somedays it's going to feel like you're just pi$$ing your money away. But if you can stand it, all in all we'll come out on top...eventually..."
Please sign up here for your punch in the face -


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## Gringotts Bank (13 November 2010)

If someone was to watch me trade, they would say I use TA.  
After all, I draw trend lines, run scans and inspect the market depth and watch as much of the recent action I can without missing the trade at the price I want. 

But I understand without a shadow of a doubt that whether the trade makes money or not has everything (100%) to do with my psychology.  It's almost as if the "method", if you could call it that, is just me going through the motions, and is not at all necessary.

My trading has gone through various phases, starting with basic FA, then basic TA, then advanced TA, then psychological methods, then back to simple TA (since advanced TA usually resulted in poorer returns), neural networks and back to simple TA.  Once you've tried enough "methods", you realise there are no methods, it's all about how you feel, your attitudes and beliefs.  Each "method" can be successful or useless, depending on you, the operator.  

If trading had anything at all to do with method, then don't you think the big funds could afford to buy one and implement it?  Think about that.


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## Steve Arthur (13 November 2010)

sails said:


> Hmmm, I think you will find the answer in those 9,000 posts...
> 
> Tech and many other respected posters have shared their wisdom in their posts and haven't charged a cent for it.
> 
> I am immediately skeptical with high priced courses on something as slippery as trading.  I have been caught into such courses in my beginning years of trading only to find it was very expensive pollywaffle.  In my experience, the real gems are found with patience and generally have no price tag.




I agree, that's why I do not charge for or sell any courses, books, newsletters, dvd's,software, black box trading systems or give out buy or sell tips.  I merely charge for my time. And anyone who had spent 15 years learning something in any profession would expect $100 a hour. That is all I charge, as the coaching always works out at about 5 hrs per month. 

The reason I wanted to do the coaching in the first place was because of all the crap that is out there, anybody who reads my website can see that.

Thank you $20 shoes for talking about the subject, I hope it continues.


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## tech/a (13 November 2010)

> The reason I wanted to do the coaching in the first place was because of all the crap that is out there, *anybody who reads my website can see that*.




Marketing 101 read copy before publishing!

OOps!!


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## Steve Arthur (13 November 2010)

Sorry about that, I tried not to, but hard not to in this instance.

Please delete that bit.


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## tech/a (13 November 2010)

> My trading has gone through various phases, starting with basic FA, then basic TA, then advanced TA, then psychological methods, then back to simple TA (since advanced TA usually resulted in poorer returns), neural networks and back to simple TA. Once you've tried enough "methods", you realise there are no methods, it's all about how you feel, your attitudes and beliefs. Each "method" can be successful or useless, depending on you, the operator.




*GG*
Don't agree with you on all aspects.
What I would say I see in this passage is that you've never progressed from a method hypothesis to proof of a positive expectancy method which has with stood rigorous scrutiny.There are PROVEN methods many many of them.Some are even available to the general public---free and some are available from licensed sources for a fee.




> If trading had anything at all to do with method, then don't you think the big funds could afford to buy one and implement it? Think about that.




Naive statement.
Funds have whole floors of actuaries working on volumes of data.
Everything funds do they do WITH methods.
Funds are like elephants and due to volumes have a great deal of trouble achieving what we the general public can without volume restraints.
Once trading $250-500K + portfolios volumes and liquidity do become a governing factor.


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## Gringotts Bank (13 November 2010)

Steve, that reminds of a line from Get Smart: "Well gentlemen, I've watched you all make fools of yourselves... and now it's my turn!"

tech/a yes, I concede the elephant factor is a huge limit, but even so, they only make 8%pa.


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## Julia (13 November 2010)

Gringotts Bank said:


> , then psychological methods,



Can you explain what 'psychological methods' as a system of trading consist of?

Steve, still hoping for an explanation from you, as earlier requested, of what actually you mean by the term "trading psychology"?


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## Gringotts Bank (13 November 2010)

Just having a positive expectation that's not dependent upon method.  A lot harder than it sounds!


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## tech/a (13 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> Sorry about that, I tried not to, but hard not to in this instance.
> 
> Please delete that bit.




So other than 15 yrs (12 in a tizz) of trading why would I or anyone else go to to you for coaching?

(1) Are you licensed? (ASIC)
(2) Do you have a proven track record that I can verify?.
(3) Do you have a portfolio or portfolios currently trading that can be viewed to verify that your coaching methods are actually employed to trade?---Profitably.
(4) Do you show how to handle and reduce draw downs?
(5) Are you insured---what if I do your course follow it then lose a heap---I may sue you!
(6) Do you have any guarantee that your coaching methods will improve my or anyone else's trading?

These are all questions I would ask and expect from an educator and those here know I use one mentor who ticks all the boxes.(been trading 17 yrs) 5 of them in a tizz)


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## Julia (13 November 2010)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just having a positive expectation that's not dependent upon method.  A lot harder than it sounds!




I imagine it would indeed be hard to have a positive expectation if it's not based on any sort of proven method!
Could you give some examples?   It sounds a bit as though you just throw a dart at any stock, buy it, and 'positively expect' it will do well!

I doubt you'd actually be doing that, so if you could explain a little, that would be really helpful.


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## tech/a (13 November 2010)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just having a positive expectation that's not dependent upon method.  A lot harder than it sounds!




Julia

Discretionary trading that is profitable.
Setting a sequence of trades up which 
you set out to trade profitably by winning 
more than you lose on a consistent basis 
is very difficult.
I do that with Discretionary Index Trading (futures).
To be honest my systems trading is far more *long
term profitable* than my discretionary.

Expectation is a far cry from setting up a trade
sequence to have positive expectancy.


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## Trembling Hand (13 November 2010)

Julia said:


> It sounds a bit as though you just throw a dart at any stock, buy it, and 'positively expect' it will do well!




He wouldn't be the first to do so. Thats why Psycho books for retail traders sell so well.


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## Joules MM1 (13 November 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> With all the due respect little i can muster. You have to be kidding???
> 
> A **** system or **** MM creates ill effects in your Psychology - in your Mind & Body. You end up throwing your plan out the window on what punters often call 'undisciplined' trades. What is really happening is the start of the delusion that you're doing the right thing, that you are a trader, is being stripped away. Denial is giving way to reality. You stray from the ill fated plan you have set for yourself because you don't know that that plan is one that will ultimate be profitable. Every bad day chips away at your ego until you blow up in 1 of the 1000s of ways to blow up in this gig.
> 
> ...




kin oath !


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## Gringotts Bank (13 November 2010)

eg.  My scan shows 20 high volume breakout stocks, all with very similar chart patterns.  I can't afford to spread the risk over all 20 so I have to choose 1-5 of them, hopefully the ones that run hardest.  I choose the number of trades, the position size and how and when to sell as if I was G. Soros.  Method acting.


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## SmellyTerror (13 November 2010)

Slightly-backhanded defence of Van Tharp: I got the impression that he's just confused about what "psychology" means. He seems to think that anything in your head is psychology. So there's a system, and there's MM, but once it's in your head it's all "psychology".

Smart bloke in a lot of things, but labelling everything as "psychology" is pretty silly, and he should probably just stop using the word altogether. (That goes for a few other people, too.  )
/shrug

Might have him wrong, it's been a while since I read his stuff, but that was the impression I got. Really, "it's 100% psychology" makes 0% sense any other way...


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## Trembling Hand (13 November 2010)

Gringotts Bank said:


> My scan shows 20 high volume breakout stocks, .........
> 
> I choose ........................................ as if I was G. Soros.




Well thats why you cannot make a cent trading...... a retail punters scan as if you where a market mover. No wonder you need some trading mystic to get you though.


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## Trembling Hand (13 November 2010)

SmellyTerror said:


> Slightly-backhanded defence of Van Tharp: I got the impression that he's just confused about what "psychology" means. He seems to think that anything in your head is psychology. So there's a system, and there's MM, but once it's in your head it's all "psychology".




The funny thing is that if you do have some sort of Psychological problem whats the chance of some random dude with a website charging a sqillion dollars a year is going to be able to fix it?

Talk about the evils of the internet!!! LOL. :bananasmiirate::kiffer:


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## Gringotts Bank (13 November 2010)

Well "George" makes better decisions than "I" do, and "he" has made me some money of late.  Maybe I could try trading as "Trembling Hand"? :iamwithst


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## tech/a (13 November 2010)

> Well thats why you cannot make a cent trading...... a retail punters scan as if you where a market mover




My pea brain isn't wrapping around your Gist here T/H.
Care to expand?


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## SmellyTerror (13 November 2010)

Hey, if I redefine "psychology" to mean "cement", I can say that it's only psychology stopping my house from falling down.

If I redefine "psychology" to mean "everything you need to do to trade profitably", I can sell you my hand-waving as the Word of God. 

To teach trading, you'd have to show you can trade. To teach psychology you only need to be able to talk out of your ****.


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## Trembling Hand (13 November 2010)

tech/a said:


> My pea brain isn't wrapping around your Gist here T/H.
> Care to expand?




If you're channeling a market god who plays with billions, breaks governments and no doubt need to play contrary entry/exits then go about trading breakouts in penny dreafuls its hardly a Psychology meshing of minds.


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## Trembling Hand (13 November 2010)

SmellyTerror said:


> To teach trading, you'd have to show you can trade. To teach psychology you only need to be able to talk out of your ****.




 .


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## tech/a (13 November 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> If you're channeling a market god who plays with billions, breaks governments and no doubt need to play contrary entry/exits then go about trading breakouts in penny dreafuls its hardly a Psychology meshing of minds.




Got it


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## Julia (13 November 2010)

tech/a said:


> Julia
> 
> Discretionary trading that is profitable.
> Setting a sequence of trades up which
> ...



Well, fine, Tech, but none of that addresses my question of what the glib phrase "Trading Psychology" actually means.

What I'm (apparently quite incompetently) attempting to get at is the sort of psychobabble nonsense that is rife across the internet, preying as it does on the inexperienced and vulnerable.  So easy to waft over their heads suggestions that 'it all depends on your *trading psychology*.
Well, perhaps it does, but I don't know since I have no idea what this 'trading psychology' actually encompasses.  Further, I suspect the purveyors of this mystical stuff have no idea either.  Hence the lack of response to my question from Steve.

I have the perhaps naive belief that if you are attempting to sell your wares to others, then you should at the very least be prepared to explain and define exactly what those wares consist of.  And that's before being prepared to offer proof of ability.

Sorry if I sound cranky, but I am pretty tired of all the nutty claims being made all over the place which are basically meaningless, but nonetheless suck in the vulnerable.





Trembling Hand said:


> He wouldn't be the first to do so. Thats why Psycho books for retail traders sell so well.



Indeed.  And to extend the principle, why bookstores have shelf upon shelf of 'self help' books containing every shonky bit of nonsense you could ever imagine, aimed at the gazillions of people who are dissatisfied with their lives and who naively believe there is some magic secret out there which, once they get it, will make them happy ever after.

Such nonsense.



Gringotts Bank said:


> eg.  My scan shows 20 high volume breakout stocks, all with very similar chart patterns.  I can't afford to spread the risk over all 20 so I have to choose 1-5 of them, hopefully the ones that run hardest.  I choose the number of trades, the position size and how and when to sell as if I was G. Soros.  Method acting.



Oh, I see.   I suppose the very slight fact that you are not in fact G. Soros, and your approach would surely necessarily be substantially different, is irrelevant?  Just so long as you believe you're a winner, huh?

Sorry, Gringott.  I don't mean to be snide or critical.  If whatever you're doing works for you, then that's great.


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## kgee (13 November 2010)

Geez you guys are pretty rough about the idea of trading psychology. While I don't prescibe to the idea that "trading psychology" is 100% attributable to profitable trading it's certainly important.
With gambling there's a phrase "to go full tilt" its when you start playing badly or wildly when losing ...chasing your losses....I'm sure a lot of people have some experience...if not personally then from seeing it occur.
The psychology goes something like its an "ego" thing and "no one likes losing" and apparrently it's quite natural...my thing is that if you read a book about it and you understand the problem won't you be more likley to close your position or walk away from the table?
And how can that be a bad thing?


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## skyQuake (14 November 2010)

The way i see it psych is just a multiplier. If your system/method makes money, trading psychology can help u avoid some emotional errors.

If your system is crap, psych won't help one bit. Too much time has been spent trying to master ur emotions and whatnot when backtesting was the correct thing to do.


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## kgee (14 November 2010)

skyQuake said:


> The way i see it psych is just a multiplier. If your system/method makes money, trading psychology can help u avoid some emotional errors.
> 
> If your system is crap, psych won't help one bit. Too much time has been spent trying to master ur emotions and whatnot when backtesting was the correct thing to do.




I'm partially agreeable. Backtesting is invaluable.But lets look at another trading website and the "toot toot" phenomenon.
How many here have words of wisdom or counselling that could be offerred to these people? Be it called wisdom or psychology?


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## tech/a (14 November 2010)

> Well, fine, Tech, but none of that addresses my question of what the glib phrase "Trading Psychology" actually means.




With no plan or a lose un proven method which you have no idea if its long term profitable---you will have psychological issues.These diminish or are completely eradicated when you do and your not trading outside your financial comfort zone.

As for *STEVE*
Disappointed he hasn't accepted the challenge of a discerning audience who are not content with being fed BURLY.
He has an opportunity to present his experiences and his background but has stepped aside very quickly.
In the real world with real $$s at $100/hr he is going to get people like me asking the questions I have.

Hes not going to add to his psychological make up by stepping away.


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## Trembling Hand (14 November 2010)

tech/a said:


> As for *STEVE*
> 
> Disappointed he hasn't accepted the challenge of a discerning audience who are not content with being fed BURLY.




Funny isn't it. After this,



Steve Arthur said:


> 19 years later, he argues that psychology now counts for 100% of trading success and I for one agree with him.




and this from his site,



You would think his full of ideas. Infact some of his claims make it sound like he has a very good handle on Psychology. A quick look a wiki,



> *Australia*
> The title 'psychologist' is restricted by law. Registration as a psychologist is governed by State and Territory Psychology Registration Board.[11] From July 1, 2010 psychologists must be registered with the Australian Psychology Board.[12]
> The minimum requirements for registration as a psychologist is an Australian Psychology Accreditation Council (APAC) accredited four year bachelors degree majoring in psychology and either a two year masters program or two years of work supervised by a registered psychologist.[1]
> 
> Restrictions apply to all who want to use the title 'psychologist' in any form in all states and territories of Australia. However, the terms 'psychotherapist', 'social worker', and 'counselor' is currently self-regulated with several organizations campaigning for government regulation.[13]





I would say that his encroaching on some dangerous grounds throwing around the term "Psychology" and offering a paid service unless he has some real qualifications. 

Do you Steve????


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## Agentm (14 November 2010)

we are all incredibly dumb, as this youtube piece clearly spells out.

we all behave the same and we all react similarly

laurie santos has done some amazing work in her research

enjoy

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/363/1511/3837.long


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## awg (14 November 2010)

Some questions if you dont mind.

in many occupations psychological screening tests can/are administered by trained psychologists.

The purpose of these tests is to identify the desired characteristics, but screen out the unnaceptable.

Examples include Executives and Military Personel, where they want to get hard men, but not psycopaths.

I would enquire whether your methods takes any measure to identify those that may not be suited to trading due to psychological traits ( or other reasons)?

do you believe that some people are not suited, or that all obstacles can be overcome?

(So far as I know, anyone can administer various psychological tests, provided they do not misrepresent their qualifications)

btw, I am not advocating any sort of testing and dont have a preconceived idea of what yr answer might be, if any. genuinely interested


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## SmellyTerror (14 November 2010)

There are enough different methods of trading that I think you could match a pretty huge variety of personalities into it somewhere - if only to fill the always-hiring "food for others" role.... :

But yeah, for me that's the only real role "psychology" has in trading: finding something you are capable of trading. 

ie. something you are *comfortable* with, something you can *understand*, something you can *stick to*, and something that you can *enjoy*.

After that, all that matters is if you make money.


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## Steve Arthur (14 November 2010)

On the subject of what I do;

1. I will provide anyone with any information they request concerning my ability to operate as a trading coach, if they contact me personally with regard to my coaching service via my website.  All the questions that Tech/a and some others have asked have been asked before by previous clients and a few more besides.  
2. I am not and have never claimed to be a psychologist.
3. I will not reply to any more comments about my business on this forum, please direct them to me personally via my website. 

Back to the subject of trading psychology;

The reason I made the point about the lack of posts about psychology, is that I believe it is the most important part of not only trading but life in general.

Words mean different things to different people, but to me and to the dictionary; psychology is the study of mind and behaviour.

Trading psychology is the study of your mind and behaviour while trading.  The subject is too vast to condense to one post.  But in essence it is way we as traders process information, what we do with that information and why we do it.

Why is it 100% of trading? 

Because everything else is just information.  

We all have to process the information received by our 5 senses and we all interpret that information in different ways, based on our brain physiology and experience.

Someone will say one thing, maybe only one word and it will mean many different things to different people based on their personal experience alone.

If I mentioned the words trading plan, they will mean something  very different to me, than they do to someone else. 

So what about the huge amount information we have to process as traders?

This is why markets exist, no buyers without sellers, people interpreting the information and processing it differently.

For the record, I have never said a trading system is not required or hard work and study or correct money and risk management, they all essential to trading.

But just using the information that is being fed to you is not enough if your mind is processing it the wrong way.

I don’t believe there any mystic in this, it is not psycho babble.

It is merely being able to understand how our minds are programmed and how we can then change that programming to our benefit.

I did it through understanding, motivation and repeated behaviour.

If you believe trading psychology is just a big ruse to milk amateurs of money, then it proves my point.

We all interpret information in different ways, some of us in ways others could not imagine.


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## Trembling Hand (14 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> But just using the information that is being fed to you is not enough if your mind is processing it the wrong way.
> 
> I don’t believe there any mystic in this, it is not psycho babble.
> 
> It is merely being able to understand how our minds are programmed and how we can then change that programming to our benefit.




You have made it psycho babble by in no way quantifying what you are talking about other than is the most vaguest of terms. Classic tactic of snake oilers and fools who have nothing of substance to say.

Personally I cannot believe you have stubbled in here to start a post about how ASF is greatly lacking, as per your claim, threads on the most important part of trading yet have *nothing *of structure or fact to offer. 

Hardly a great example of thoughtful actions? What does that say about your ability to develop a plan for yourself let alone charge others!!

If this thread was a trade its already blown through your stop and taking out 52 week lows, your broker is calling you on both lines with a margin call while you're talking about the better div yield


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## tech/a (14 November 2010)

> But in essence it is way we as traders process information, what we do with that information and why we do it.




This is all I see in the post related to the topic.

What you've said is simply how we process ANY decision.
As with most who have nothing to offer I note your subject of 100% necessity as a profitable trader --- wont place you under the scrutiny of ASIC.
There are many more like you who tout Astrology---Cycles----Gann.

Just saw T/H crossed.
There is nothing offered here of value and with the opportunity to redeem your self after your marketing blunder---pretty poor effort.



> 1. I will provide anyone with any information they request concerning my ability to operate as a trading coach, if they contact me personally with regard to my coaching service via my website. All the questions that Tech/a and some others have asked have been asked before by previous clients and a few more besides.




As for this------------ pathetic.
If there was a plethora of yes's then you'd have supplied them---so Ill take that as a plethora of NO's.
If your going to talk the talk you had better be able to walk the walk.



> I'm not new to this forum, but until recently I have never had a good look around it.
> 
> I have to say there are some very experienced and knowledgeable people on this forum and there is a wealth of information to be had.




Id go back to lurking---you'll learn more.


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## nulla nulla (14 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> On the subject of what I do;
> 
> 1. I will provide anyone with any information they request concerning my ability to operate as a trading coach, if they contact me personally with regard to my coaching service via my website.  All the questions that Tech/a and some others have asked have been asked before by previous clients and a few more besides.
> 2. I am not and have never claimed to be a psychologist.
> 3. I will not reply to any more comments about my business on this forum, please direct them to me personally via my website.




I suppose they need to enclose a cheque as well.



> Back to the subject of trading psychology;
> 
> The reason I made the point about the lack of posts about psychology, is that I believe it is the most important part of not only trading but life in general.
> 
> ...




Now watch for the contradiction.



> We all have to process the information received by our 5 senses and we all interpret that information in different ways, based on our brain physiology and experience.
> 
> Someone will say one thing, maybe only one word and it will mean many different things to different people based on their personal experience alone.
> 
> ...




And there it is.



> But just using the information that is being fed to you is not enough if your mind is processing it the wrong way.
> 
> I don’t believe there any mystic in this, it is not psycho babble.




Yes, imo it is babble.



> It is merely being able to understand how our minds are programmed and how we can then change that programming to our benefit.
> 
> I did it through understanding, motivation and repeated behaviour.
> 
> If you believe trading psychology is just a big ruse to milk amateurs of money, then it proves my point.




Actually, at this point in time, everyone watching the exchange of posts is waiting for you to make a valid point and respond to the points raised.



> We all interpret information in different ways, some of us in ways others could not imagine.




If it wasn't scary, it would be the funniest statement I've heard in years. Except that it is a repition of ... 



> We all have to process the information received by our 5 senses and we all interpret that information in different ways, based on our brain physiology and experience.




...repitition, reinforcement and totally without substance.

It has been a quiet day, and the exchange has been interesting but imo it really is time the moderators stepped in and gave this self promoting thread the treatment it warrants.


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## prawn_86 (14 November 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> imo it really is time the moderators stepped in and gave this self promoting thread the treatment it warrants.




I think you guys have pretty much done it for us anyway. 

For a future note, people posting on ASF should be aware that any service/product may come under scrutiny, and that is not at the hands of mods/admin it is simply members asking their own questions. Mods/admin will only step in if the thread gets abusive etc


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## Wysiwyg (14 November 2010)

SmellyTerror said:


> To teach trading, you'd have to show you can trade. To teach psychology you only need to be able to talk out of your ****.




I read somewhere that a persons mental patterning is rigid and difficult to change after a certain number of years. Like one can "lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" sort of thing. Supple minds (good name for a band?) are far and few between. The "pattern" of success is 'very' obviously not transferable at any price.


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## Julia (14 November 2010)

prawn_86 said:


> I think you guys have pretty much done it for us anyway.
> 
> For a future note, people posting on ASF should be aware that any service/product may come under scrutiny, and that is not at the hands of mods/admin it is simply members asking their own questions. Mods/admin will only step in if the thread gets abusive etc



Thanks for that, Prawn.  I'd be sorry to see the discussion cut off.
Anything which exposes pure salesmanship for what it is is worth retaining imo.


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## Beaverdog (15 November 2010)

Hi everyone, 

I was not expecting to make my first post in a thread with this type of topic but i could not help it, i have never traded but i am very keen to learn about trading, what it involves, the tools, the brokers, the methods  that are public, put simply i am sponging knowledge from where ever i can get it *BUT......* 

if anyone else here is new or old to trading my  do the hard yards yourself, this is not my psychological state talking its my experience, my experience dictates to me that if i want to undertake anything seriously or need anything serious done i am much better of doing it myself, if someone wants to share their experiences with me and i can take something from that then i thank you very much for it and would offer a "trade" of my own experience with them, if i believe it will aid someone then i would simply leave some type of information here and let the thread begin and may the knowledge flow.

so with that being said...

Steve if you are not prepared to finish what you started here please leave or better yet go away, you do not need to reply to this either its simply a request and the only thing i expect if you disagree is not to reply.

you are marketing yourself and asking people to go to your website before you share any knowledge yet this forum from what i have seen has been all about sharing knowledge or experience so by the power of deduction you sir are a salesperson not a trader to begin with, this in itself is not a good starting position and would consider it a major swing signal but i doubt you take shorts.

Steve, i want to give you some advise (free of charge) it does not matter what you do to make a living as long as you a prepared to work hard for it and to do it well, this is true for anything whether you want to be a politician aspiring to become prime minister or a thief wanting to rob a bank, there are risks to everything just a matter of what you are prepared to risk. and I am not prepared to risk my money on you based on the above. and hope that no one else does either. you need to find something that you have talent for and this is not your area of expertise by far.

for everyone else who may have wanted some psychology but may not necessarily be beneficial to your trading the only thing i can say is this.

"there will always be someone better off than you and someone worse off than you"

Beaver


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## nunthewiser (15 November 2010)

Welcome to ASF Beaverdog


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## skc (15 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> In his book super trader Van Tharp talks about a workshop he did 1990, with Market wizards Ed Seykota and Tom Basso.
> 
> "All 3 of them agreed that psychology contributes to 60% to success, position sizing 30% and system development 10%.  And that most traders ignore the first 2 and don’t really have a system anyway, that’s why 90% fail".
> 
> ...




Even newer research (by myself) has concluded that a different factor is the most important to any trader. 

Forget about systems, money management or psychology. My research has shown that breathing is 100% responsible for successful trading. 

Does George Soros hold his breath when he takes a position? If you have ever watched Larry Williams trade live, you will notice that he breathes in air CONTINUOUSLY. Not for a moment did he stop breathing. He would not stop when he was looking at his charts, placing orders or setting stops - because these activities are all secondary to breathing.

Breathing is the most important factor in trading. Without air coming into your lungs, you will die in a matter of minutes. You will not be able to develop trading systems, execute the plan or will yourself to victory. Dead traders will never be successful traders.

So send me $6K now and I will teach you how to breath your way to trading success.

(Next week, I will show you why your ability to click your mouse accurately is THE MOST IMPORTANT factor to trading successfully).


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## Sdajii (15 November 2010)

Steve Arthur said:


> What gives you the right to be so rude and judgemental?




His keyboard and his internet connection. There are plenty like him out there, and even more out there who will judge more harshly and be even more rude. You're on the internet, it's probably a good idea to get used to the idea 



skc said:


> Even newer research (by myself) has concluded that a different factor is the most important to any trader.
> 
> Forget about systems, money management or psychology. My research has shown that breathing is 100% responsible for successful trading.
> 
> ...




Brilliant post, well said


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## tech/a (15 November 2010)

> if anyone else here is new or old to trading my  do the hard yards yourself, this is not my psychological state talking its my experience, my experience dictates to me that if i want to undertake anything seriously or need anything serious done i am much better of doing it myself, if someone wants to share their experiences with me and i can take something from that then i thank you very much for it and would offer a "trade" of my own experience with them, if i believe it will aid someone then i would simply leave some type of information here and let the thread begin and may the knowledge flow.




I think we have to do the yards to gain understanding.
If we dont wish to then we engage an expert to conduct business for us.
We cannot be experts at everything---proficiency and expertise are wide apart. Finding a mentor is a quick way to learn most things provided the mentor is bonefide in the area we are persuing.

I search out people who are successes in their field.
One snippet can be a gem of wisdom when applied.
The best knowledge I have gained is from listening to those who freely  share.


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## Gringotts Bank (15 November 2010)

George is breathing easily and continuously today because he is holding no long positions.  I may have been tempted on RIA early today but George always makes money on his trades and he said "no" quite firmly.

George doesn't sit around on days like this waiting for something to happen when he already knows it won't.  He will take a look at IFN later in the day, if it closes in the high 70's.  He is attracted by the head and shoulders set up and noted that the neckline was touched earlier today.


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## nunthewiser (15 November 2010)

Unreal.

Glad no one taking this thread seriously.


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## Gringotts Bank (15 November 2010)

Here's some fantastic quotes from Ed Seykota on the psychology of trading.

Our work is not so much to treat or to cure feelings, as to accept and celebrate them. This is a critical difference.
Fundamentalists figure things out and anticipate change. Trend followers join the trend of the moment. Fundamentalists try to solve their feelings. Trend followers join their feelings and observe them evolve and dis-solve.
The feelings we accept and enjoy rarely interfere with trading.
Trying to treat or cure feelings adds mass.


Have a deep belief in the inevitability of your success.


The feelings you don’t like don’t pass through. Feelings you do like pass through. To get feelings to flow through, and not interfere with your trading, learn to like them. Part of that comes from experience, part with identifying their positive intentions.


It’s all about sticking to your plan and experiencing feelings as they arise. If you are unwilling to feel your feelings, the temptation is to avoid them by jumping off your system.


Children seem open to feel whatever they feel. Their moods change from moment to moment as they keep experiencing their feelings. As we mature, we learn to contain our feelings.


Embracing the moment, celebrating the pain, and finding the positive intention, tends to transform pain into wisdom. Trying to avoid the bad stuff only tends to institutionalize it, and miss it’s positive intention.


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## tech/a (15 November 2010)

Gringos Bank said:


> Here's some fantastic quotes from Ed Skat on the psychology of trading.
> 
> Our work is not so much to treat or to cure feelings, as to accept and celebrate them. This is a critical difference.
> Fundamentalists figure things out and anticipate change. Trend followers join the trend of the moment. Fundamentalists try to solve their feelings. Trend followers join their feelings and observe them evolve and dis-solve.
> ...




I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't just covered Steve's Course!!
I'm sure I could drag that out(The above) for a few hrs of Mystic mumbo!

Ever noticed that the Philosophical/Psychologically crippled types love mumbo---they thrive on it!


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## SmellyTerror (15 November 2010)

GB, did you post that stuff as a laugh, or do you actually believe it's fantastic?

I'm not trying to be critical, but I honestly HONESTLY cannot understand what you or anyone else could be getting out of that stuff. It's like one of those bloody seeing-eye books, where most people squint at it for a minute and see the Taj Mahal, but some of us just see a migraine.

I'm just seeing a word-salad.



> It’s all about sticking to your plan and experiencing feelings as they arise. If you are unwilling to feel your feelings, the temptation is to avoid them by jumping off your system.




How is that different to saying: "When you're trading you'll feel like you're trading"?

Seriously? You need someone to tell you that?

Here's my "psychology":


When I get a really good trade, I smile a bit. I might say a soft "woohoo". When I get a crap trade I might go as far as a wince.

If I'm having a really good patch, I might fantasize about quitting my day job. When I'm having a really bad patch I might re-count the days until I'm on leave.

When I have a ripper of a day I'll trade as hard as I can. When I hit my stops in the first hour, I spend the rest of the day going over old trades or simming a new idea. Bad days are what make me better.

Sometimes when the price stalls and I want it to go up, I kinda raise my eyebrows and try to use psychic powers to make it go up, even though I know that's dopey.

But overall I keep trading because it's challenging, it's fun, and I make money.

So there you go. PM me for my Pay-Pal details if you think paying for a dumbo-feather makes it work better.


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## Beaverdog (15 November 2010)

skc said:


> Breathing is the most important factor in trading. Without air coming into your lungs, you will die in a matter of minutes. You will not be able to develop trading systems, execute the plan or will yourself to victory. Dead traders will never be successful traders.
> 
> So send me $6K now and I will teach you how to breath your way to trading success.
> 
> (Next week, I will show you why your ability to click your mouse accurately is THE MOST IMPORTANT factor to trading successfully).




 that's gold right there !


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## nulla nulla (15 November 2010)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Here's some fantastic quotes from Ed Seykota on the psychology of trading.
> 
> Our work is not so much to treat or to cure feelings, as to accept and celebrate them. This is a critical difference.
> Fundamentalists figure things out and anticipate change. Trend followers join the trend of the moment. Fundamentalists try to solve their feelings. Trend followers join their feelings and observe them evolve and dis-solve.
> ...





Sounds like a party I went to in the 60's or 70's, not quite sure of the date. Could be still going for all I know. Hey man....what was the question again?


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## Trembling Hand (15 November 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> Sounds like a party I went to in the 60's or 70's, not quite sure of the date. Could be still going for all I know. Hey man....what was the question again?




:kiffer::bong:


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## nielsend (15 November 2010)

skc said:


> Even newer research (by myself) has concluded that a different factor is the most important to any trader.
> 
> Forget about systems, money management or psychology. My research has shown that breathing is 100% responsible for successful trading.
> 
> ...




lol


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## Gringotts Bank (15 November 2010)

I think it's pretty disrespectful to bag something you obviously know nothing about.  

It reminds me of all the self-appointed experts on the climate change thread.  Lots of big talk on both sides of the argument, yet I bet none of them has studied even the basics of climatology.   

Just in case anyone is actually interested, subconscious processes are identified through emotions.  It's been well established that the subconscious can process much greater amounts of data, and identify trends far more rapidly and accurately* than the conscious mind.  So you can use emotions to make (or assist with) judgements such as in trading.  If you want more than that, too bad.  You should have been a bit more open minded.

*there are a few exceptions that have been recorded experimentally.


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## Ruby (15 November 2010)

Psychology can be extremely beneficial in a lot of cases, but there comes a time, with trading and with life in general, that you have to stop talking about it and get on with it.  You can theorise about something forever, but it doesn't produce the goods.  

While good discipline and a positive attitude are important, you still won't make any money unless you have a strategy that works and you practise it consistently, which is what the experienced traders on this forum have been saying.   

I think a trading coach would only be useful if he could give me some practical solutions and tools I could use every day in my trading which would guarantee me successful trades.


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## nielsend (16 November 2010)

Would like to thank everyone for their input into this thread, it’s been the most entertaining thread I've read for a while. Didn't learn anything from a psychological point of view, but hey what the hell it was good reading, and had a few laughs along the way.

Well there you go, I did gain a psychological advantage, the thread was amusing to the point it made me laugh. Now that’s gotta be a ‘winnah’!


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## IFocus (17 November 2010)

nielsend said:


> Would like to thank everyone for their input into this thread, it’s been the most entertaining thread I've read for a while. Didn't learn anything from a psychological point of view, but hey what the hell it was good reading, and had a few laughs along the way.
> 
> Well there you go, I did gain a psychological advantage, the thread was amusing to the point it made me laugh. Now that’s gotta be a ‘winnah’!




Personal experience is I studied trading psychology relentlessly for 5 to 6 years in fact I still read any thing that looks interesting.

I learned a lot about the whys of behavior etc which I find fascinating but facts are I would attribute the % of success of my trading to the study of psychology at being fairly low although I sure it had some sort of impact.

As others here have already stated finding a system or method that has a edge understanding when and why it works and testing it to death is IMHO is the holy grail of having any chance of some sort of success in the markets.

To succeed in this game you do actually have to change to some degree your behavior or your behavioral response to input.

By doing the above for an extended period you can go through or gain the exposure to help develop the correct behaviors.  

Even after this it no certainty that you will succeed 

Hope this helps


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## impishbynature (20 November 2010)

Hi Guys

Long time lurker, not holding any great trading positions or systems, but just like to make a comment based on my experience of living with and interacting with psychologist for 10 years (always interesting as I am an electrical engineer and seem to think a lot differently).

1) Perception is the process by which people interpret the information provided by their senses (stimuli). 

2) People take actions based on these interpretations (and personal history etc etc). 

3) Often people perceive the same external stimuli in a different manner.

4) Sometimes groups of people perceive the same external stimuli in a very similar manner, or behave as though they do (Rumor, Madness and the Fear of Crowds).

Perception is everything, related to behavior, but it is a personal thing and that personal thing is what I see as psychology.

When it comes to trading there are things you can't control (eg the market) and things you can.

One of the things you can control is your own behavior (up to a point), so I think psychology probably does have an important part to play in the outcome of your own trading, but there are still many factors outside of your control or understanding - the human brain has a finite capacity for information and processing it.

Not arguing for or against the thread here, just making observations.


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## Trembling Hand (22 November 2010)

Shame Steve Arthur never put up any points or backed up his oh so cheap $6000 per year wisdom/coaching/whatever he was offering with any...... well........ anything really.

I see he has also de-linked his website from his profile.

Cannot blame him I guess as its not really the best advertisement for his sparkly new website and business.

http://www.mytradingcoach.com.au/

Oh hope that will not show up in a google search


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