# Overseas Students - I am staggered



## WinnieBlues (14 October 2009)

I am staggered that our education system, designed for educating young australians, is being turned into a degree factory to pump out degrees for foreigners in this country...

who voted for this?????

A massive 547000 overseas students (not a misprint) are currently in australia studying for degrees

And i thought that our unis were set up to educate young aussies...how naive of me!!!! As a recent graduate you only have to look at the consequences...crowded lecture theatres and tutes, fighting for access to computer pools and library resources etc etc...

china, singapore etc etc wouldn't be this stupid to sacrifice the education of the next generation for a quick buck to be made from foreign students

its high time that we start to get out priorities right....australian unis primary concern should be educating young aussies, NOT overseas students ...it seems that the pollies and uni establishment have got it the wrong way around


----------



## Mr J (14 October 2009)

For better or worse, education is a business.


----------



## finnsk (14 October 2009)

Mr J said:


> For better or worse, education is a business.



Yes and big business they pay between $15000 & $20000 dollars each p/year, that is + living cost, if they then choose to apply for permanent resident they pay another $800 for each time they go for the english test and only about 25% pass, I believe (do not know) in Sydney the numbers that go for the test each month is beyond 5000  .


----------



## WinnieBlues (14 October 2009)

finnsk said:


> Yes and big business they pay between $15000 & $20000 dollars each p/year, that is + living cost, if they then choose to apply for permanent resident they pay another $800 for each time they go for the english test and only about 25% pass, I believe (do not know) in Sydney the numbers that go for the test each month is beyond 5000  .




so what...we shouldn't be selling our degrees in this way at any price!!!! 560000 students...my god, that is the size of Hobart...and its happening very quietly...if Australians truly knew, they would be up in arms about this

there is also a COST to australia.......more international students in overcrowded lecture theatres, crowded computer pools.......we should be prioritising the education for young aussies, not foreign nationals

and because it is now a business it has been abused.....and what a joke that is


----------



## prawn_86 (14 October 2009)

So have you done a full cost:benefit analysis of this WB?

They pump a hell of a lot of money into the economy, which is a good thing. While i agree that lots of tutes and lectures are crowded, i would be interested to know what % figure of total tertiary students are from overseas.

Who exactly are you outraged at? The students? The uni's? The governments? Seems a bit of a directionless, overly patriotic, rant to me


----------



## skc (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> so what...we shouldn't be selling our degrees in this way at any price!!!! 560000 students...my god, that is the size of Hobart...and its happening very quietly...if Australians truly knew, they would be up in arms about this
> 
> there is also a COST to australia.......more international students in overcrowded lecture theatres, crowded computer pools.......we should be prioritising the education for young aussies, not foreign nationals
> 
> and because it is now a business it has been abused.....and what a joke that is




Don't be too quick to point fingers. Crowded lecture theatres is caused by too many students or too small a space. It is not caused specifically by too many international students.

Where did you read about Aussie students couldn't get a proper education they want because of foreign students?

What percent of university funding comes from international student fees? What would the facilities be like if those fees are not there? How high would uni fees (and hence debt after graduation) be for the local students if the international students stop coming?

Where have you seen research that suggest international student doesn't generate economic benefits to Australia overall?

Show some facts. Otherwise it just sound like uninformed xenophobic rant.


----------



## finnsk (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> so what...we shouldn't be selling our degrees in this way at any price!!!! 560000 students...my god, that is the size of Hobart...and its happening very quietly...if Australians truly knew, they would be up in arms about this



560000 students times $15000 = a lot of money added to the aussie economy every year and that is just in school fees.


----------



## WinnieBlues (14 October 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> So have you done a full cost:benefit analysis of this WB?
> 
> They pump a hell of a lot of money into the economy, which is a good thing. While i agree that lots of tutes and lectures are crowded, i would be interested to know what % figure of total tertiary students are from overseas.
> 
> Who exactly are you outraged at? The students? The uni's? The governments? Seems a bit of a directionless, overly patriotic, rant to me




Overly patriotic rant...what, to suppose that aust unis should be educating australians....

like i said, there would be no way singapore or china would be compromising the education of their next generation for a few bucks...

as a recent graduate from an aust uni, i can tell you that it some of my friends tutes (such as accounting tutes) full of 30 students, she is one of only 2 local students in a class of 30, with the rest being int students...

that this has to be debated that it is wrong for the future of aust tells me that we have sold our education to the highest bidder, and most don't give a stuff about educating the next generation of australians - they would rather focus on educating foreigners who have the cash to come here!!!!! Oh dear


----------



## prawn_86 (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> that this has to be debated that it is wrong for the future of aust tells me that we have sold our education to the highest bidder, and most don't give a stuff about educating the next generation of australians - they would rather focus on educating foreigners who have the cash to come here!!!!! Oh dear




So instead of debating it we should say "yes WB sir, whatever you say"?? 

I am at uni at the moment, in 2 business degrees, and would estimate about a 50/50 split, however that is based on nothing but my own guess, i have no actual figures. And as SKC says where would our uni's be without them? They may even be worse off, depending on gov funding. Who exactly are you angry at? 

You can go to a uni in China or whatever country you want, if you so choose and meet their requirements.

**puts mod hat on**
Instead of trolling and being aggressive, why not debate it logically and provide facts and figures?

ASF is for robust discussion, not one sided rants. As you are a new member i suggest you read the posting guidelines
**removes hat**


----------



## jono1887 (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> so what...we shouldn't be selling our degrees in this way at any price!!!! 560000 students...my god, that is the size of Hobart...and its happening very quietly...if Australians truly knew, they would be up in arms about this
> 
> there is also a COST to australia.......more international students in overcrowded lecture theatres, crowded computer pools.......we should be prioritising the education for young aussies, not foreign nationals
> 
> and because it is now a business it has been abused.....and what a joke that is




560,000 international students, each spending approx 35,000 in student fees and living expenses is $19,600,000,000 injection into the Australian economy each year.. I don't see any problems with that. And consider the number of universities in Australia... there are about 40 or so, so thats only 14,000 per university. Most universities have greater than 30,000.. so they make up less than half of the uni students. 

I would say its a benefit more than a cost. They pay larger fees allowing the universities to produce better infrastructure, pay for better lecturers and so on... as Australia's population is so small, we can't possibly sustain the number of universities we have no without international students.


----------



## MrBurns (14 October 2009)

Whats more there is now no restriction on property they buy so , financed by their famiies, they buy whatever they like, hence a large contributor to the housing bubble, this is an excellent way for foreigners to buy into Australia.

Too bad about the young Aussie's they cant compete with the cheque books of these people.


----------



## WinnieBlues (14 October 2009)

here's a novel idea...instead of our esteemed unis having to grovel to overseas students to fund themselves, why doesn't uncle kev actually put some money into them....

maybe he could have put some the money he wasted through sending $2000 cheques in the form of 'stimulus' to dead people??? LOL


agree prawn, this needs debate...and we don't have enough regarding this

the govt has chronically underfunded our unis for ages...and now they have to go grovelling to make up for it


----------



## waz (14 October 2009)

I half agree with what is being said. Im more than happy for as many foreign students to be educated in Australia. However, *it should not be at the cost of local students.*

Universities give preferential treatment for full fee paying students. They are short on cash so ofcourse will do whatever is necessary to charge more fees.
As a basic example, the cut off UAI mark (or what ever it is called in your state) will be about 5 points lower for a full fee paying student over a HECS student.

Note that full fee paying students are not just overseas students. This also includes kids with rich parents who can buy a spot.

The university placement system has been replaced from the tertiary ranking to the new $ system. Both systems work like an auction.

In one system your highest bid that you can make is your entrance mark, in the new system your highest bid is whatever your daddy can afford.

With most foreign students your bid is whatever loan size you can get.

I would like to see as many foreign students come to Australia, only after all the local tax payers have had their positions filled. We would then auction off the remaining spots.

The problem is, there are no remaining spots. Its not uncommon to have 500 people in the one lecture room. 

The solution isnt to limit the amount of foreign students, we should be increasing capacity.

Limiting the amount of foreign students is akin to not expanding the newcastle coal terminal.

WinnieBlue, define young aussie for us please. Most university students are not your typical beach blonde 18 year old. Most are asian and a high perecentage are mature age students.

Another reason why uni's are overcrowded is that we just dont have enough academics to teach these courses. How do we get more academics? by increasing the number of people who get a degree.


----------



## awg (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> china, singapore etc etc wouldn't be this stupid to sacrifice the education of the next generation for a quick buck to be made from foreign students
> :




reckon they would

theres a price on everyones backside in the global economy


----------



## boofhead (14 October 2009)

How much of the reasoning here fact and how much is presumtion?

Four Corners earlier this year had a story on it. Very interesting. It pointed out how this is a major part of the economy. There is probably a little bit of ego in it too. As a leader I would love the idea that international students want to come to my country to be educated. That can then lead to boasting about how the top level education is quality.

560,000 and Hobart? That is the total population of Tasmania.

Someone, somewhere needs to pay.

To turn the debate around a little - why are medical degrees so limited in number? Seems we can pump out lawyers and accountants but put a cap on doctors so we need to bring in foreign doctors. Then we have the various health departments around the country competing with each other for what is available. This can drive up pay for doctors and adds a burden to the health costs.

Perhaps the university system/degrees could be reviewed to see what is really needed.


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

1美元對貴國，請擦腳


----------



## skyQuake (14 October 2009)

Agree with overcrowded lecture theatres and tuts. But whose fault is that? The student enrolling or the University deciding _Oh an extra $20,000 won't hurt.. What? You have a friend? Is he paying? Why of course there's an extra spot! Welcome to ___ university!_

To be fair, not many people go to lecs anyway


----------



## doctorj (14 October 2009)

How bad is the traffic in Sydney?  Imagine how much better the roads would be if there were no tourists or foreigners.  Australian roads are for Australians!


In all seriousness, University's are established to provide education.  Putting the funding and fee issues aside for the moment, Uni's are a better place for including international students.  Like it or not, Australia participates in a global market (that includes Asia) and for most of us that means interacting with people from different countries and cultures.  This is not something you just 'do', it's both an attitude and a skill that is only learned through exposure and application.

Australia punches above it's weight economically and politically not just because our proximity to Asia, but Australia's ability to engage the region and bridge the gap between East and West.  This has clear benefits you can see right now - no recession and low unemployment in the middle of a global recession and a strong AUD.

There are areas to improve, but in general, Australia's education system is doing the country reasonably proud.  For me, the thing we need to improve next is sending more students the other way and give more young Australians the experience of living and learning in Asia, North America and Europe.


----------



## jono1887 (14 October 2009)

waz said:


> However, *it should not be at the cost of local students.*
> 
> Universities give preferential treatment for full fee paying students. They are short on cash so ofcourse will do whatever is necessary to charge more fees.
> As a basic example, the cut off UAI mark (or what ever it is called in your state) will be about 5 points lower for a full fee paying student over a HECS student.
> ...




They've removed the full fee paying option already for many courses and isnt the play to remove it completely so its purely based on academics for local students and not how much money you have. And I don't see how its a cost to local students.. they're clearly paying their way for their education. There is no cost to us..


----------



## many@k (14 October 2009)

Under which rock have you been living lately?

Education is our 3rd biggest export worth $15bn annually.

It's the largest growing of Australia's exports in monetary terms and probabbly the sole reason this country never officialy had 2 negative quaters of GDP in the last couple years.

If you dont already know Australia is part of Asia and if you walk out in the streets of Sydney, Melbourne Brisbane and Adelaide you'll see that there is a huge growth of international students.

These are the facts and also the future direction of this country so embrase with your arms wide open mate. and throw another shrimp on the barbie..crickey


----------



## Mr J (14 October 2009)

> Australia's education system is doing the country reasonably proud




It's also doing the world some good, if the education is of a reasonable standard. There are worse things to be than a regional centre of education.


----------



## suhm (14 October 2009)

boofhead said:


> How much of the reasoning here fact and how much is presumtion?
> 
> Four Corners earlier this year had a story on it. Very interesting. It pointed out how this is a major part of the economy. There is probably a little bit of ego in it too. As a leader I would love the idea that international students want to come to my country to be educated. That can then lead to boasting about how the top level education is quality.
> 
> ...




They more than doubled the number of spots for medical degrees, the government is pumping us out like lawyers now. Deakin recently took over geelong hospital in melbourne, I think bond university is taking st vincent's private. The huge ramp up in such a short time is causing a lot of problems as there aren't enough people to train junior doctors.

Overseas students are in my mind the best form of skilled migration. Your getting an intelligent, trained professional who has paid for their own training and who is already integrated into australian society.

I was paying 6k a year deferred into HECS for my degree which I will only end up paying off in about 6-7years. My post grad overseas student classmates are paying 56k a year + living expenditure, doesn't take a genius to figure out which is the cheaper alternative for Australia.


----------



## jono1887 (14 October 2009)

boofhead said:


> To turn the debate around a little - why are medical degrees so limited in number? Seems we can pump out lawyers and accountants but put a cap on doctors so we need to bring in foreign doctors. Then we have the various health departments around the country competing with each other for what is available. This can drive up pay for doctors and adds a burden to the health costs.
> 
> Perhaps the university system/degrees could be reviewed to see what is really needed.




The number of med degrees is capped by the government. Its the only course where the govt has total control over the number of places that each university are allowed to have each year.

I don't think its the number of doctors that is the problem. The problem is that there are not enough med graduates that want to specialise into GP, and move into the areas of shortage. However, foreign doctors are more willing to work in these places where aussie graduates don't want to.


----------



## Dowdy (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> I am staggered that our education system, designed for educating young australians, is being turned into a degree factory to pump out degrees for foreigners in this country...
> 
> who voted for this?????
> 
> ...




Maybe you should study economics then you'll probably understand why the government done this


----------



## WinnieBlues (14 October 2009)

many@k said:


> Under which rock have you been living lately?
> 
> Education is our 3rd biggest export worth $15bn annually.
> 
> ...




yep.......so it seems we now have sold almost everything left to sell...we sell degrees, we practically sell passports now as well

if people haven't worked it out, education is practically linked with migration...ask any int student....so people are basically paying to become future citizens

would Japan allow this??? would korea????

No, they wouldn't be so stupid as to sell their own countries out


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> yep.......so it seems we now have sold almost everything left to sell...we sell degrees, we practically sell passports now as well
> 
> if people haven't worked it out, education is practically linked with migration...ask any int student....so people are basically paying to become future citizens
> 
> ...




hence my post previously

not just education being sold to the highest bidder either 

i agree on SOME of your points actually


----------



## J Nighttrain (14 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> The number of med degrees is capped by the government. Its the only course where the govt has total control over the number of places that each university are allowed to have each year.
> 
> I don't think its the number of doctors that is the problem. The problem is that there are not enough med graduates that want to specialise into GP, and move into the areas of shortage. However, foreign doctors are more willing to work in these places where aussie graduates don't want to.




There are limitations on how many places are available for the gp training college as well. there are plenty of graduates that do not make the intake for gp training. It is now classed as a specialty training college like any other specialty. The cost of a medical degree is significantly higher than your average degree. I guess this is understandable.


----------



## tasmart (14 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> if people haven't worked it out, education is practically linked with migration...ask any int student....so people are basically paying to become future citizens




This is just part of the overall government run PONZI scheme! Spend money (lots of it) and aim to spend more - and pay for it by collecting taxes from an increasing tax base - especially of young migrants!

But then Australia has been built on the backs and money of migrants so perhaps we shouldn't complain.........


----------



## jono1887 (14 October 2009)

J Nighttrain said:


> There are limitations on how many places are available for the gp training college as well. there are plenty of graduates that do not make the intake for gp training. It is now classed as a specialty training college like any other specialty. The cost of a medical degree is significantly higher than your average degree. I guess this is understandable.




I heard somewhere that there are 600 or so GP places a year and less than 500 get filled. I don't think its the requirements but more so the lack of interest in specialising into GP where there are other better opportunities.


----------



## suhm (14 October 2009)

Over 15 years they will have gone from about 900 to 3400 medical graduates a year when the full impact of the medical student tsunami hits internship positions in 2012. 

Its just over 2000 at the moment and tasmania already graduates more students than they have intern spots and band 2 people have trouble getting intern spots in queensland so all the international students there have to try their luck interstate after paying their exorbitant fees. 

The number of GP training places will increase to 850 by 2011 from 600 and I was told they have been oversubscribed as numbers have been capped since 2004. Most of the medical and surgical specialties are usually more competitive there are some exceptions but you still have to pass your FRACP exams or get a SET position for that and there are far fewer positions than for GP.

You do the math, unless they do a UK and boot out all the overseas trained doctors, job security might not be a given in the future or you may end being conscripted like the bonded students and the overseas trained doctors to work in the bush.

What the government wants to do is churn out more rural GPs, which is what Australia needs, but that's not really what most students want.


----------



## Macquack (14 October 2009)

A question for the students (or anyone).

If foreign students contribute $15 billion annually and local students have to pay as well (HECS), *does it cost the taxpayers anything *to run Australian universities?

If the answer is, it still costs the taxpayer, then does that not mean we are effectively subsidising foreign students?


----------



## lazyfish (14 October 2009)

Macquack said:


> A question for the students (or anyone).
> 
> If foreign students contribute $15 billion annually and local students have to pay as well (HECS), *does it cost the taxpayers anything *to run Australian universities?
> 
> If the answer is, it still costs the taxpayer, then does that not mean we are effectively subsidising foreign students?




An aussie student pays about $500 per unit (starting next semester), and an international student pays well over $2000.


----------



## skyQuake (14 October 2009)

Macquack said:


> A question for the students (or anyone).
> 
> If foreign students contribute $15 billion annually and local students have to pay as well (HECS), *does it cost the taxpayers anything *to run Australian universities?
> 
> If the answer is, it still costs the taxpayer, then does that not mean we are effectively subsidising foreign students?




More like they are subsidising the aussie students if anything.
Truth probably comes closer to 'lining the uni's pockets'


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

do these overseas students recieve austudy or rent assistance or any other taxpayer funded gifts ?


----------



## skc (14 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> do these overseas students recieve austudy or rent assistance or any other taxpayer funded gifts ?




Our government is silly but not that stupid! (I hope)


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

skc said:


> Our government is silly but not that stupid! (I hope)





it would not surprise me actuallyif they did


----------



## lazyfish (14 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> do these overseas students recieve austudy or rent assistance or any other taxpayer funded gifts ?




I don't think you are eligible for anything really unless you are a permanent resident or citizen.


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> do these overseas students recieve austudy or rent assistance or any other taxpayer funded gifts ?




no one knows ? 

or do they know and not willing to answer because of the dent it puts in the argument that overseas students studying here instead of in there own country is not such a great idea economically after all ?


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

lazyfish said:


> I don't think you are eligible for anything really unless you are a permanent resident or citizen.




"think " isnt what im after

after all its not like a normal holiday visa etc etc .these students are here years, so maybe they are entitled on a certain visa they are issued to stay here for a prolonged length of time ......

would be intresting to know the facts


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2009)

lazyfish said:


> An aussie student pays about $500 per unit (starting next semester), and an international student pays well over $2000.



How many units is there to a basic degree these days ?

At Flinders Uni in the mid-late 80's, 36 units constituted a year's undergraduate study and 108 units a degree.


----------



## lazyfish (14 October 2009)

drsmith said:


> How many units is there to a basic degree these days ?
> 
> At Flinders Uni in the mid-late 80's, 36 units constituted a year's undergraduate study and 108 units a degree.




I guess every uni's a bit different. Here 4 units would give you 100 credits which is full load for 1 semester. The degree is 3-4 years depending on whether you do honours or not. So 24 units for a degree at a minimum.


----------



## bellenuit (14 October 2009)

If there weren't any foreign students, then many courses would not be available to Australian students as there wouldn't be enough students to make it viable to run some courses.

You will always have overcrowding as that is a function of the resources made available compared to the resources required. Governments always reduce funding until breaking point is reached. Health, police and defence forces are all run the same way. 

Since the US, UK and Canada are also trying to attract foreign students, it must be viewed as a good thing overall for the economy. 

So long as it is not at the expense of local students, then I am all for it.

There are also positive side effects, like improved understanding between us and our neighbours (though the Indian student issues may be negative at the moment). Should foreign students stay on following completion of their degrees, there is the added benefit of obtaining highly qualified workers at no expense to Australia.


----------



## lazyfish (14 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> "think " isnt what im after
> 
> after all its not like a normal holiday visa etc etc .these students are here years, so maybe they are entitled on a certain visa they are issued to stay here for a prolonged length of time ......
> 
> would be intresting to know the facts




Well put it this way I am a migrant myself and I migrated through a masters' degree in computing about 6 years ago. I am not aware of any financial assistance whatsoever provided to international student.


----------



## Macquack (14 October 2009)

skyQuake said:


> More like they are subsidising the aussie students if anything.



Isn't that the idea of full fee paying foreign students?



skyQuake said:


> Truth probably comes closer to 'lining the uni's pockets'




You give the impression that universities turn a profit. Do they?


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

ok i did 9 minutes of research and it seems they are eligble after all . i may be wrong but thats my take from the following paragraphs 

this is from the austudy website



> 3.2.1 Australian citizenship or permanent residency
> To be eligible for assistance a student must live in Australia during the period of study (see 3.2.3) and be either:
> an Australian citizen
> an Australian permanent resident within the meaning of regulation 1.03 of the Migration Regulations 1994




this is from the migration regulations 1994 





> Australian permanent resident" means:
> 
> (a)    in relation to an applicant for a Return (Residence) (Class BB) visa or a Resident Return (Temporary) (Class TP) visa -


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

So ......... if the previous post is correct and the overseas students are taking in austudy and other benefits ... is it still such a viable idea to fill our learning centres with overseas students who may be taking valuable room that home grown students could of had instead but will not get because some overseas bugga is paying the uni more money than they do

yes the uni,s love them as they not having to pay the bill for austudy etc .WE as taxpayers are 

i find the whole situation a crock of crap actually and a lil annoyed i bothered to take the time to look for myself as now dirty on the fact im paying the way for some other bunch of freeloading buggers 

please someone show me i am wrong in regards to austudy etc


----------



## skyQuake (14 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> ok i did 9 minutes of research and it seems they are eligble after all . i may be wrong but thats my take from the following paragraphs
> 
> this is from the austudy website
> 
> ...




They are here on a student visa and are not permanent residents. Thus, they are not eligible for benefits (not even the student discount concession card)



Macquack said:


> Isn't that the idea of full fee paying foreign students?
> 
> 
> 
> You give the impression that universities turn a profit. Do they?




Macq, one of the arguably more 'international' universities, generated a profit of around 5 mil in 08. 
Most unis however are careful to balance their books as to not raise scrutiny.


----------



## lazyfish (14 October 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> So ......... if the previous post is correct and the overseas students are taking in austudy and other benefits ... is it still such a viable idea to fill our learning centres with overseas students who may be taking valuable room that home grown students could of had instead but will not get because some overseas bugga is paying the uni more money than they do
> 
> yes the uni,s love them as they not having to pay the bill for austudy etc .WE as taxpayers are
> 
> ...




Ok you were wrong. You only get a resident return visa after you becoming a permanent resident. A student will only be holding a student visa.


----------



## white_goodman (14 October 2009)

im getting $250 Friday for a photographer to to get some shots of my granny flat as an example of student living... yewww!


----------



## nunthewiser (14 October 2009)

thanks guys 

now i can sleep easier


----------



## alter1217 (15 October 2009)

> So ......... if the previous post is correct and the overseas students are taking in austudy and other benefits ... is it still such a viable idea to fill our learning centres with overseas students who may be taking valuable room that home grown students could of had instead but will not get because some overseas bugga is paying the uni more money than they do
> 
> yes the uni,s love them as they not having to pay the bill for austudy etc .WE as taxpayers are
> 
> ...




They don't get any of those benefits until they become permanent residents. They can only become permanent residents if they fit the list of "wanted professionals" after they graduate. I've lots of friends who're international students, and sometimes I feel sorry they don't get concession. $50 a week for a train travel pass... (Okay I'm starting to feel sorry for full time workers who catches trains too.) One of my friend's parents had to take out a mortgage to send them here to study... but yeah, most of them are loaded.

I love the education system here =) 7k a year won't get you to a decent university even in china.  Also, its all in free debt. (interest rate indexed to inflation).  

I don't get any other government benefits, however, because my parents fail every means test... and they're too stingy to give me any pocket money. gahh....


----------



## theasxgorilla (15 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> so what...we shouldn't be selling our degrees in this way at any price!!!! 560000 students...my god, that is the size of Hobart...and its happening very quietly...if Australians truly knew, they would be up in arms about this




You are aware that we're in the Information Age now?

I met my current girlfriend this way.  She took me all the way to the other side of the world, together with my degree and three of hers.  Geez, that backfired didn't it!  Oh no wait a minute... she also paid full fees, took her student loan liability with her and I invest all my savings and 10 years of super contributions into the ASX.  

I think the issue is more complex than you are suggesting WB.

PS. No-one gets any benefits as an international student.  You pay your way, that's why having them here is so lucrative.  The number of hours they can legally work is also limited, meaning that the funding for their fees generally speaking has to come from abroad.

PPS. What better way to attract quality immigrants?

PPPS. This is not a 2009 issue so you haven't discovered anything new, reputable universities around the world have been trying to attract full-fee paying students for decades.


----------



## zzaaxxss3401 (15 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> I am staggered that our education system, designed for educating young australians, is being turned into a degree factory to pump out degrees for foreigners in this country...




Doesn't this prove that Australia has a world-class education system? If overseas students are able to fund to come to uni, either through their parent's or their own hard work, then good on them. Only 1% of the population goes to University!!! That makes Australia very lucky in the fact that over 30% of our 18-25 year olds alone attend some form of post-schooling.

The problem lies in our Governments not backing our inventions or supporting the "little guy". We sell a lot of our IP overseas, simply to be bought back as an import. Next time you buy something it will most likely have "Made in China" or "Made in PRC". There was a lot of uproar a few months ago, when Pacific Dunlop moved it's manufacturing overseas... but what did the Government do... nothing. We now buy the Bonds brand (an Australian icon) from overseas.

One company that has done it tough, and decided to buck the trend is Zip Industries. The good old hot water urn in many office kitchens. They recently announced a contract to sell to the Chinese. 

In the country, they are finding it harder and harder to find doctors to staff their hospitals. It is the highly educated new migrants (from all over the world) that choose to live in the regional areas of this country. Sure, they can be better paid in the cities, but they are asked to work where they are needed, so they do. And I thank them for that.

Here's the thing, if the Government doesn't encourage overseas students to acquire an education in our very lucky, clean, opportunity filled, non-racist (I hope I can still say this with conviction) country of ours, they they have three options:
1. Let the Universities shut down that can't afford to operate - local families suffer, because their children have to relocate to an open university.
2. Increase the fees - fair is fair isn't it, just like our overseas students.
3. Prop them up with even more tax payer's money.

What do you suggest suffers? None of them have favourable outcomes... particularly #3 if you live in a city - less funding for your wide open (usually congested) freeways, tunnels, hospitals, public transport (can it get any worse?). 

Work hard, invest your money, find a loving partner, have a family, cash-in your investments to pay for your children's education to give them a chance, and start enjoying life! You're a crazed gold-prospector looking for a reef that doesn't exist!

Perhaps the only reason you're worried about the number of overseas students living and working here, is because they work harder than you or your children ever will. Good on them, I say.


----------



## qldfrog (15 October 2009)

more cynical:
I am a migrant and came here 15y ago in a very strict regulation: 3y waiting list , country quoto (and I come from western europe) and 5 y university degree.
Now, rules have changed and very significantly in the last month of Johnny so we can not blame Rudd on that 

this 500 000 "students" are not all and by far your uni students you are talking about:
by enrolling in a tafe for a pseudo degree in cooking or other similar rubbishes, against a $20k or so, you get a visa, the right to work as taxi driver or other casual jobs and get automatic residency at the end of your studies

In short, you buy australian citizenship and the money does not even go to the government.
The word spread quickly and this is a backdoor yet legal bypass to the eldorado.I am actually surprised anyone is still trying to come here in a leaking boat!!!
Year and years of future problems IMHO  but Rudd is happy: it keeps the house price bubble high!!


----------



## zzaaxxss3401 (15 October 2009)

doctorj - I'm totally with you on this one (re: Page 1 post).

I'm sometimes frustrated that we don't live closer to Asia and are taught a language in high-school / university. Education in Europe allows you to have day-trips to practise your French, German, Spanish or Italian. I have a mate learning Hindi so that he can interact with at least 1/3 of the Indians when he visits for work discussions.

English is only #3 (per population) after mandarin and spanish - one advantage Mr Rudd has when visiting any Chinese steel mills.  Opportunities are at our doorstep, but we're too lazy to make the effort... so we freak out!


----------



## theasxgorilla (15 October 2009)

zzaaxxss3401 said:


> The problem lies in our Governments not backing our inventions or supporting the "little guy". We sell a lot of our IP overseas, simply to be bought back as an import. Next time you buy something it will most likely have "Made in China" or "Made in PRC". There was a lot of uproar a few months ago, when Pacific Dunlop moved it's manufacturing overseas... but what did the Government do... nothing. We now buy the Bonds brand (an Australian icon) from overseas.




You are correct that this is a problem, but the way you describe it manifesting is hardly the issue.  Do you think it bothers the Swedes when their IKEA home furnishing products say, "Made in China/Russia/Romania/Portugal/any-where-like-but-Sweden"??

I think they got over this a long time ago, because the products also say: Design and Quality IKEA of Sweden.


----------



## Prospector (15 October 2009)

I was at Uni 30 years ago and the lecture theatres were still packed!  So cant blame those pesky FULL FEE paying overseas students for that.

If our Unis are in trouble it is because they offer too many specialist courses at under-grad level; and each one of these courses requires the obligatory professor, associate professor, their staff, their honours students etc etc.  And this costs way too much money to fund their infrastructure.

We need to go back to the basic undergrad degrees of Science, Arts/Humanities; Medical and Dental, Engineering, Law, Economics, Architecture, and probably a couple of others; then, at Post Grad level specialising can kick in.

Too many snouts in the trough at the moment.

Overseas students DO NOT get Austudy.  They pay full fees, as well as their own living expenses, none of which are assisted by the Government.  To get AUSTUDY you need to provide evidence of citizenship. Hardly any Australian students can qualify for AUSTUDY.  I suspect our Unis could not run without OS.  They need their fees.  HECS fees dont come anywhere near the cost of a Uni degree.

So, lets ban overseas students and immediately the cost to Australian students getting a degree will double, overnight!

What a stupid, xenophobic rant this started with.


----------



## doctorj (15 October 2009)

Prospector said:


> Too many snouts in the trough at the moment.



I really can't see the problem.  Large class sizes aren't themselves the problem, but rather the reduced quantity/quality of interaction that implies.  I don't know if undergrads have changed since I was there, but most undergrads didn't participate unless they absolutely had to.  There was more than enough interaction for those that wanted it.


----------



## zzaaxxss3401 (15 October 2009)

theasxgorilla said:


> Do you think it bothers the Swedes when their IKEA home furnishing products say, "Made in China/Russia/Romania/Portugal/any-where-like-but-Sweden"??




No - As long as the quality is up to the Swedes' standard.


----------



## Aussiest (15 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> full of 30 students, she is one of only 2 local students in a class of 30




I guess my only issue (if you could call it that) with that is the quality of the interaction you get with your classmates. Eg, it can work for you in the sense that you are exposed to different cultures, which can educating, or it can work against you if there is a language barrier.


----------



## Surfer35 (15 October 2009)

No doubt the OP laments the demise of One Nation as he no longer has political representation. I also note his constant stroking over being a recent grad, wow where's my chocolate frogs. I hold four degress from Australian unis and quite enjoyed the fact they were populated by people of different backgrounds. If rednecks like the OP actually overcame their fear and had a chat they might find people from somewhere else are not that scary.


----------



## pj2105 (15 October 2009)

It's always good to compare to others when being judgmental like this.

My sister a few days ago said she was served by a girl in a deli and she began to talk to her and noticed that she had a US accent.
The deli girl said she grew up in America but moved to Australia when she married an Australian.  She said she went to school in Harvard and owes the school $300,000, which she knew she would never be able to pay off so she was happy to move here.

Image that for a school debt!   That's 300K she is obliged to pay off, even before she can start saving to buy a house.  And lets admit it, the US schooling system isn't the best one going around either and how good can it be, she was working in a deli!

Compare a debt like that to what you are saying above.  And really the US dollar is pretty much the same as a AUD dollar now.


----------



## Calliope (15 October 2009)

Prospector said:


> If our Unis are in trouble it is because they offer too many specialist courses at under-grad level; and each one of these courses requires the obligatory professor, associate professor, their staff, their honours students etc etc.  And this costs way too much money to fund their infrastructure.
> 
> We need to go back to the basic undergrad degrees of Science, Arts/Humanities; Medical and Dental, Engineering, Law, Economics, Architecture, and probably a couple of others; then, at Post Grad level specialising can kick in.
> 
> Too many snouts in the trough at the moment.




As usual what you are saying makes a lot of sense. When I was at Uni, none of the now fashionable Mickey Mouse degrees existed. In those days the idea of a degree was to gain a profession that could earn you a living.


----------



## Prospector (15 October 2009)

doctorj said:


> I really can't see the problem.  Large class sizes aren't themselves the problem, but rather the reduced quantity/quality of interaction that implies.  I don't know if undergrads have changed since I was there, but most undergrads didn't participate unless they absolutely had to.  There was more than enough interaction for those that wanted it.



Hey Dr J, the problem is that the Uni's are continually crying poor.  Yet they fund these incredibly specialist undergrad courses which require the infrastructure that goes along with it.  And of course, they dont want to rule themselves out of work. These are the snouts I was talking about, not the students themselves!


Calliope said:


> As usual what you are saying makes a lot of sense. When I was at Uni, none of the now fashionable Mickey Mouse degrees existed. In those days the idea of a degree was to gain a profession that could earn you a living.




High praise indeed Mr Calliope! :  Maybe we are just two oldies who reminisce about the good old days, but really, some (maybe 50%) of the undergrad courses they teach these days are just ridiculous.


----------



## gav (15 October 2009)

Calliope said:


> In those days the idea of a degree was to gain a profession that could earn you a living.




What is the idea of a degree "these days" then?


----------



## Mad Mel (15 October 2009)

Did the OP consider that without the foreign students, there are half as many students in total?  Ok, so lop off half the facilities and professors, reducing the quality of education.  And don't forget to double the cost of going to uni since the foreign kids aren't subsidising the Aussie kids any more.  Net result: A poorer education for the fewer people who can afford one.


----------



## Calliope (15 October 2009)

gav said:


> What is the idea of a degree "these days" then?




God only knows. But I do know that many of those turned out by our Unis end up in safe bureaucratic government jobs where they can make life difficult for the true professionals.

Hospital administration comes to mind.


----------



## Happy (15 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> ...
> and because it is now a business it has been abused.....and what a joke that is





There are also rumours about pressure to accept below minimal level to let foreign students to continue. 
Often evident plagiarism is not picked up. 
Many students have such poor English language that you wander what they understand, if at all.
Essays are bought and sold there are switches during the exams.

So true: *Factory *but with very poor quality control and above all this is back door entry to permanent residency in Australia.


----------



## lazyfish (15 October 2009)

Happy said:


> There are also rumours about pressure to accept below minimal level to let foreign students to continue.
> Often evident plagiarism is not picked up.
> Many students have such poor English language that you wander what they understand, if at all.
> Essays are bought and sold there are switches during the exams.
> ...




Just wish to point out that you need to score above 7 (out of 9) on ALL 4 components of the IELTS test to score 25 points on the point system. Without achieving this you lose 10 points which the vast majority of potential migrants would need in order to be granted a 885 visa.

I agree that the quality of international student can be poor in some disciplines, e.g. business school here, but then again they won't be able to migrate with that occupation anyway.


----------



## Stpepper (15 October 2009)

Yo. Former international student here. My caveat is that I finished my course mid 2007.

Points:

1. Overseas students can't get AUSTUDY or any centrelink support. What is more, even after they become permanent residents, they have to wait TWO years before are able to claim centrelink payments. Those students with the funny accent are in fact already permanent residents, temporary residents or citizens.

2. Overseas students receive less support than local students. For instance, back in 2005 as an international student there was no way you could get an internship or graduate position in any company because they very first question they asked was 'Are you a PR?', if you said no, the company would not consider you. Also, if the course had an internship component, you couldn't apply for it. I heard that the situation for international students in this regard has improved somewhat, but I'm not sure.

3. I think a lot of people are kidding themselves if they somehow believe that this influx of international students or other immigrants doesn't has anything to do with the state of housing here in Australia. If all international students were gone tomorrow, you'll see a lot of these 95% LTV property investors having problems servicing their mortgages. 

4. In regards to quality, while I can't provide any numbers, I believe that the standard of education has dropped in order to accept a greater number of international students. Throughout my degree I've seen and heard of 'tough' subjects becoming way easier for no reason at all. Heck, I've seen one guy who hardly spoke any English in my Business Law class (Only one incident, however, it left a very deep impression on me).

5.  Again, I can't provide any numbers, but I strongly suspect most international students can't become PRs when they finish their degree. In order to be able to get your PR you need an IELTS test of 7.0 overall. As surprising as this might sound to some people, my personal experience has been that most international students can't do it. I know someone who did the IELTS 5 times(300 bucks the try) and couldn't get 7.0. Then she had to pay a cool 12,000 for more education. 

6. I don't know how the 15 billion dollars get calculated, but international students pay much more than just the education. For instance, the Department of Immigration assumes that you will need 12,000 AUD a year to afford living in Australia. I don't know about you, but it seems pretty tough to live in Australia at 1,000 AUD a month when you know no one here. I wager that most international students spend way more than 12k a year on top of the degree.


----------



## boofhead (15 October 2009)

Stpepper: "Throughout my degree I've seen and heard of 'tough' subjects becoming way easier for no reason at all" isn't just about foreign students. It is a way for the universities to boost their rankings. Governments have put forward ideas involving performance of universities.

A friend's brother was involved in marking some work of students. He was given directions on how to mark. The comment made was it was hard to fail.


----------



## skyQuake (15 October 2009)

Happy said:


> Often evident plagiarism is not picked up.




Its much easier if you're a local student, knowing how to change certain parts, ability to dumb down high level language to more believable levels, and every student's greatest friend. Google.


----------



## lukeaye (15 October 2009)

I went to uni, and im an aussie.

I dont see the problem in taking money from overseas?

lets be real here anyway, this is FACT that 40% of uni students drop out of there course before the end of the first year.

So crying about to many internationals is just stupid. Its a business like it or not, and a good one. 

Lets face it, most aussies are under acheivers who dont want to work or study hard anyway, its the australian away. the small perecentage of us who actually want to learn and are ambitious, is not enough to fill a uni, trust me.


----------



## WinnieBlues (15 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> I went to uni, and im an aussie.
> 
> Lets face it, *most aussies are under acheivers who dont want to work or study *hard anyway, its the australian away. the small perecentage of us who actually want to learn and are ambitious, is not enough to fill a uni, trust me.





A racist post if ever i have saw one.....imagine saying all tongans are underachievers who don't want to work or study....you would be vilified to hell


----------



## doctorj (15 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> A racist post if ever i have saw one.....imagine saying all tongans are underachievers who don't want to work or study....you would be vilified to hell



Australia has graduated from a country to a race now?


----------



## lukeaye (15 October 2009)

WinnieBlues said:


> A racist post if ever i have saw one.....imagine saying all tongans are underachievers who don't want to work or study....you would be vilified to hell




How can i be racist if its my own race? i said MOST, and there is a small percentage of us who actually are ambitious.

I think you are infact the racist one, there is def hidden racisim in ur posts and even the whole idea of this thread, your very anti foreginers if im reading between the lines correctly.


----------



## beerwm (15 October 2009)

haha,

i dont see how aussie children who have been riding of their parents wealth are really anymore deserving than these overseas students.

luke is definitely right, aussie students.... not all, but by proportion to those of foreign background are underperformers/achievers.

- not racist... just the truth.

disclosure: anglo-australian, go to uni.


----------



## Kez180 (16 October 2009)

I graduated in August. The only issue I have with international students is that they are a nightmare to do a group assignment with, they either say they'll do something and then don't, completely misunderstand the assignment question, copy and paste from google, get aggressive with you when you fix their dodgy English or the absolute winner, refuse to work with the group as 'they don't want the Aussie guys/girls to take advantage of their higher work ethic'.

I am all for them coming here to learn and spending money. I also have heaps of Asian friends who are generally far more scathing of the FOBs than I am...

I reckon the English exams should come before the degree...

P.S. My housemate is a German citizen who has been living here with his diplomat parents since 2001, speaks fluent English, finished year 12 and has started a Building & Construction management degree. He can't get citizenship, it is a joke!!!


----------



## Mr J (16 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> How can i be racist if its my own race? i said MOST, and there is a small percentage of us who actually are ambitious.




Your question should have been "How can I be racist towards a nationality"? My question to you is whether you know most Australians, since you claim that most are lazy. How do you know it isn't a human trait, rather than Australian one? Perhaps there's a reason why the international students work harder? Paying as much as they do, you would think they would be pressured to succeed.



> its the australian away




It's also the "Australian way" to "get on with it" abd to "do the job". I believe we actually have a reputation for "getting on with it".



			
				beerwm said:
			
		

> luke is definitely right, aussie students.... not all, but by proportion to those of foreign background are underperformers/achievers.




I imagine the same could be said of local and international students anywhere. I would guess that someone sent overseas for uni is probably more likely to be hard working and already an achiever, and probably has parent that expect them to do well. I doubt it's fair to compare local vs international without taking anything else into consideration.


----------



## lukeaye (16 October 2009)

Mr J said:


> I imagine the same could be said of local and international students anywhere. I would guess that someone sent overseas for uni is probably more likely to be hard working and already an achiever, and probably has parent that expect them to do well. I doubt it's fair to compare local vs international without taking anything else into consideration.




mr j,

do you know, and this is fact, that in asian countries, they idolise teachers and academics? yes instead of throwing billions of dollars, fame and luxuries at those that entertain us, like in the western world, they actually treat there acadmecis as celebritys.

Why do they do this? because they are trying to get the children to look at those who are intelligent, and want them to be like that. they are building a brainer, more ambitious society. While we ridicule and put down those "geeks".

We watch MTV and see tommy lee jones smoking a spliff, lazing about with women to his left and right, struggling to put a sentence together.

Why are we lazy and unambitious? the answer is pretty clear. 

Once again, im not racist, i love me country more then anything, and i am a white australian surfer, i too was very very lazy, lucky my mind woke up though.


----------



## Prospector (16 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> How can i be racist if its my own race? i said MOST, and there is a small percentage of us who actually are ambitious.
> 
> I think you are infact the racist one, there is def hidden racisim in ur posts and even the whole idea of this thread, your very anti foreginers if im reading between the lines correctly.



Um, it isnt all that hidden really.


----------



## Calliope (16 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> lets be real here anyway, this is FACT that *40% of uni students drop out of there course before the end of the first year.*




I am not surprised, if their  grasp of spelling and grammar is as bad as yours. They should be weeded out before they get there.


----------



## lukeaye (16 October 2009)

Calliope said:


> I am not surprised, if their  grasp of spelling and grammar is as bad as yours. They should be weeded out before they get there.




Sorry, i didnt realise i was writing an english essay. sure thansk calliope pointing out that, !


----------



## Sunder (16 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> Sorry, i didnt realise i was writing an english essay. sure thansk calliope pointing out that, !




Digging a deeper hole there! 

It both amuses and annoys me that whenever someone gets criticised online for spelling or grammar, they retort with "I'm not writing a _______" Basic communication skills are a sign of good education. For someone who has passed that, there should be no additional thought or effort required to write something that is clear and free from errors.


----------



## lukeaye (16 October 2009)

Sunder said:


> Digging a deeper hole there!
> 
> It both amuses and annoys me that whenever someone gets criticised online for spelling or grammar, they retort with "I'm not writing a _______" Basic communication skills are a sign of good education. For someone who has passed that, there should be no additional thought or effort required to write something that is clear and free from errors.




Maybe that should put that in the guidelines and rules for ASF forums. repeated grammatical errors will result in banning?

Personally i think i still receive a C+. Thats a pass.

I think you two should start a thread about it, im sure it would generate great interest.


----------



## Sunder (16 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> Maybe that should put that in the guidelines and rules for ASF forums. repeated grammatical errors will result in banning?




Don't joke, Joe Blow may alter the posting guidelines if he sees that. In an earlier thread, he said:



> As administrator I am unfortunately exposed on a daily basis to the regrettable spelling and grammar of some of ASF's posters. This thread is my attempt to improve people's literacy levels and consequently improve the level of posting on ASF. Take pride not just in what you say, but how you say it.






lukeaye said:


> Personally i think i still receive a C+. Thats a pass.




Perhaps they lowered the standard to let you pass then?



lukeaye said:


> I think you two should start a thread about it, im sure it would generate great interest.




You are correct, there are 31 pages of discussion on spelling and grammar on this thread:

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8241&highlight=spelling&page=31

Clearly a topic of interest.


----------



## nomore4s (16 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> Personally i think i still receive a C+. Thats a pass.




That says everything about the state of our education system if you think that is a pass.

Not even close imo, and I didn't even finish year 11.


----------



## lukeaye (16 October 2009)

I don't think i have enough kleenx's for everyone.


----------



## Mr J (16 October 2009)

lukeaye said:


> I don't think i have enough *kleenx's* for everyone.




Bait is in the water .


----------



## Sunder (16 October 2009)

Mr J said:


> Bait is in the water .




There's already been enough ammunition to start a world war. We really didn't need any more. 

I think anything we say will fall on deaf ears. Some people just don't know what they don't know. I had one friend of mine who thought one interview for every five job applications was normal. We fixed up his resume and suddenly he got least an agency interview for every application.


----------



## nomore4s (16 October 2009)

Mr J said:


> Bait is in the water .




Alright, I'll bite:.



lukeaye said:


> I don't think i have enough kleenx's for everyone.




But you appear to have enough grammar and spelling errors for all of us.


----------



## lukeaye (16 October 2009)

nomore4s said:


> Alright, I'll bite:.
> 
> 
> 
> But you appear to have enough grammar and spelling errors for all of us.




That wasn't anywhere near a big a bite as i was hoping.

Well i didnt ask for english lessons did i? when im writing an essay i will come and get you sunder


----------



## prawn_86 (16 October 2009)

Ok enough personal attacks. Back on topic Please


----------



## jono1887 (17 October 2009)

Calliope said:


> As usual what you are saying makes a lot of sense. When I was at Uni, none of the now fashionable Mickey Mouse degrees existed. In those days the idea of a degree was to gain a profession that could earn you a living.




What mickey mouse degrees are you referring to? Aren't most degrees now designed to earn a living?

However alot of the degrees, that are fairly specialised but they are designed for the students to get jobs at end. I've got a who took a B. Health Sci specialising in paramedics. The degree was advertised to include tactical driving component, but when she got to the 3rd year when the driver training would be completed, it was scrapped by the uni, apparently because of a lack of infrastructure or something along those lines... in order to get any work as a paramedic, you need the driver training. So now the degree is essentially useless for getting work, and graduates will need to get external driver training before getting a job


----------



## Prospector (17 October 2009)

jono1887 said:


> What mickey mouse degrees are you referring to? Aren't most degrees now designed to earn a living?
> in order to get any work as a paramedic, you need the driver training. So now the degree is essentially useless for getting work, and graduates will need to get external driver training before getting a job




Don't you think that rather confirms Calliope's point then?  You get a degree in a particular discipline, except that when you graduate, you can't be employed in the area.  I would have thought that if the Unis were anywhere near 'employment ready' then the driving course would be part of the subject.  But Unis aren't really there to turn out people who are job ready, are they!


----------



## jono1887 (17 October 2009)

Prospector said:


> Don't you think that rather confirms Calliope's point then?  You get a degree in a particular discipline, except that when you graduate, you can't be employed in the area.  I would have thought that if the Unis were anywhere near 'employment ready' then the driving course would be part of the subject.  But Unis aren't really there to turn out people who are job ready, are they!




Well uni's are meant to give students theoretical basis for future employment, not put jobs on a platter for them...


----------

