# School BBQs - Halal or not?



## DocK (6 March 2013)

I'm interested in opinions on a potentially contentious issue.  During a P&F meeting at my children's school, it was proposed that all sausages and meat products for future P&F BBQs at sporting events etc be purchased from a new halal supplier, rather than the local butcher who has supplied the school for many years.  The basis for the proposal is that there are an increasing number of students who cannot eat either non-halal meat, or are kosher, or have various other requirements - and apparently halal food will cover all cultural requirements.  The proposer made the point that there will be no difference in taste or presumably cost, so the non-halal students would be unaffected, but the students with cultural requirements would be catered for.  A new BBQ or two will need to be purchased, but at present it is necessary for a relatively small amount of halal meat/vege burgers to be cooked in frypans at a separate location (you cannot cook halal food and non-halal on the same BBQ) so it will also be more convenient to be able to cook all food together. This makes perfect sense to me, but I have a couple of reservations:

Is it fair to the existing supplier to take our all of our business elsewhere simply because he is not a halal supplier, even though he's done an excellent job for many years?

Is there likely to be a backlash from the non-halal section of the school community? I personally have some reservations over the method of slaughter required for halal certification, and would prefer to have the option of halal or mainstream, but wonder whether running two bbqs alongside each other, one with halal meat and one not, will possibly lead to a division between the students that doesn't presently exist.  

Have any forumites had a similar issue at school/sport/work etc?


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## prawn_86 (6 March 2013)

wow PC gone crazy. Whatever happened to the old days when you smashed a snag and a steack sanga off the barbie after a game of footy and not cared where it came from or how it was cooked?

Sad thing is im not even that old, and it wasnt even considered in my childhood or teen years.


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## Boggo (6 March 2013)

The term "FIFO" rings a bell here (and I don't mean Fly In Fly Out either)


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## DocK (6 March 2013)

I appreciate that there will be a lot of people who see no need for even a discussion of this issue.  I think that every student should be catered for, if at all possible.  Every parent pays the same fees (it's a private school), the school promotes inclusivity,  and at present it is a relatively small inconvenience for the P&F volunteers to cook a separate amount of halal foods & vegetarian options.  It does raise the question though about how far you go to cater for all requirements - should we also offer a gluten-free option, choice of white bread or brown etc etc.  

I can see the logic behind the suggestion - the person who made it simply assumed that there'd be no difference in the final product as far as the majority of students would be concerned, but the minority that do have cultural requirements would also be catered for.  It's also been an increasing minority over the last few years, so it's sensible to try to come up with a system that will cater for all.  Going totally halal was seen as a simple solution to what is presently a minor problem.  What wasn't considered by the proposer was the fact that some might actually object to the switch to halal products on grounds other than taste or price.


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## McLovin (6 March 2013)

I don't see the issue. So much meat is halal now anyway, I know a few people who actually prefer the taste. If it makes parents happy then go for the two BBQ's. I'll tell you what though, a bunch of hungry teenage boys won't care whether the meat is kosher, halal, Jesus, Hindu...


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## skc (6 March 2013)

There's no issue that I can see. Your requirement (i.e. need halal meat) has changed and your old supplier unfortunately can no longer cater for it. It has nothing to do with fairness.

As to the decision to change the meat... I also see nothing wrong. Some students can eat any meat, some students can eat only halal meat. The logical answer is right there... unless there's a substantial increase in cost.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2013)

To have Halal meat would be offensive to the vegetarians.  All sausages and burgers should contain vegetables only.  See how that goes down with the PC crowd.  

Seriously though, it's probably good to allow people to have their hangups (like religion and food allergies and so on) and not be made to feel like outsiders.  Eventually they will get over it.  I'd buy the halal meat.

Then again.... the regular butchers might go out of business in the western suburbs.  Maybe stick with the regular guy.    Oh hang on you said private school, so that rules out the western suburbs.  Yeh go with the halal.    But then the whole school is catering to just a few individuals...that doesn't seem right.  Yeh stick with the regular butcher.   

But wait... what if I only eat bananas?  Will I be catered for?  Maybe BYO.


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## Sdajii (6 March 2013)

Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.

I suppose pandering to peoples' religious stupidity which calls for animal cruelty is more important than preventing animal cruelty.

Interestingly, the Koran states that if no halal meat is available it's okay to eat non halal meat, so they should just be tolerant and eat what the others are eating.

I have no problem with people having what they want, but I do have a problem with one group preventing another from doing what they want to do. If everything is halal it will mean you can't ever cook pork on those barbecues. If someone turns up with regular sausages from the supermarket, too bad, you miss out, you can't cook them. If I turned up with some lamb chops or chicken wings, too bad, I can't cook them.

If one group wants to do their own thing, no worries, that's fine, do your own thing, bring your own barbecue and your own meat, eat whatever you like, but don't put restrictions on others. Even if it's a very trivial matter in this case, the precedent it sets is a very dangerous one, it's a small step in a very wrong direction, and paths the way for more steps in that same direction.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.
> 
> I suppose pandering to peoples' religious stupidity which calls for animal cruelty is more important than preventing animal cruelty.
> 
> ...




Sounds good, but then it creates huge boundaries and divisions when the Muslims are in their corner with their BBQ and their meat and the rest of the school is doing the Aussie thing.

When in Rome, do as the Romanians (as Billy Brownless once said ).  Speak English and adopt the culture.  One doesn't turn up to a formal dinner at someone's house and declare their distaste for the language spoken and the food presented.... does one?


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## Julia (6 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.
> 
> I suppose pandering to peoples' religious stupidity which calls for animal cruelty is more important than preventing animal cruelty.
> 
> ...



+1.  Agree absolutely.


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## Boggo (6 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.
> 
> I suppose pandering to peoples' religious stupidity which calls for animal cruelty is more important than preventing animal cruelty.
> 
> ...




+ 2


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2013)

No No NO!!!

Look at what the Chinese and Africans and Vietnamese do when they stick to themselves.  They create ghettos like Springvale and Box Hill and Victoria Street and turn them into filthy dumps.  This is what happens with apartheid.  No good.  Integration is the way.  Separate food, separate BBQs... it's all a part of the problem.


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## Miss Hale (6 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.
> 
> I suppose pandering to peoples' religious stupidity which calls for animal cruelty is more important than preventing animal cruelty.
> 
> ...




+3

I will not buy or eat Halal meat so therefore if I came to the BBQ I would be discriminated against. 



McLovin said:


> ... I know a few people who actually prefer the taste. ...




Interesting you say that as the as in DocK's opening post he said they were assured there would be no difference in taste.


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## McLovin (6 March 2013)

Miss Hale said:


> +3
> 
> I will not buy or eat Halal meat so therefore if I came to the BBQ I would be discriminated against.




Pretty unlikely you never buy or eat it. There's plenty of un-labelled Halal food/meat in supermarkets. It's everywhere.


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## DocK (6 March 2013)

The replies so far make for interesting reading - and are more or less what I expected - no matter which way we go, someone is going to be either offended, not catered to or upset.  I guess this is symptomatic of a multicultural society - there are always going to be differences with no "easy fix".   I find myself being a bit of a fence-sitter.  I think every student and family are entitled to their own dietary/cultural preferences and should have options made available for them at school functions, but I also completely understand the resentment that some feel when the status quo is thrown out in order to cater to the requirements of a minority.  

Personally, I don't wish to eat halal meat as I have concerns over the method of slaughter of the animals.  I also disagree with the idea that the longstanding butcher used by the school should be replaced without a qualm because he doesn't sell halal meat, as the vast majority of parents have been happy with his services for many years, and remain so.  

I guess it's going to come down to a question of whether we should feel obliged to cater for all students, or just the majority (for the moment) who don't care where their snags come from.  Ironically, it'll probably come down to a vote at the next P&F meeting and the _majority_ vote will settle the matter for now


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## Miss Hale (6 March 2013)

McLovin said:


> Pretty unlikely you never buy or eat it. There's plenty of un-labelled Halal food/meat in supermarkets. It's everywhere.




I should have said I never knowingly buy it then.


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## McLovin (6 March 2013)

Miss Hale said:


> I should have said I never knowingly buy it then.




It probably explains why old matey said there would no difference in the taste.


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## DB008 (6 March 2013)

McLovin said:


> I don't see the issue. So much meat is halal now anyway, I know a few people who actually prefer the taste.




Can you please explain how someone 'blessing' meat, makes it taste different? Or did I miss a  somewhere?


Anyways.....

Pupils at French school told: 'It's pork or no meat'



> Pupils at a school in France will no longer be given a substitute meat if they don't eat pork, as local authorities try to cut down on food waste and costs. Parents have complained about the measure.
> 
> From this month onwards the school in the village of Arveyres in the Gironde region of south-west France will no longer offer a meat alternative to those children who do not eat pork, which is forbidden under Jewish and Muslim dietary laws.
> 
> ...


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## McLovin (6 March 2013)

DB008 said:


> Can you please explain how someone 'blessing' meat, makes it taste different? Or did I miss a  somewhere?




Apparently it has something to do with the draining of the blood. Dunno, it all tastes the same to me.


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## DB008 (6 March 2013)

McLovin said:


> Apparently it has something to do with the draining of the blood. Dunno, it all tastes the same to me.




I would say that it makes no difference. Placebo effect maybe?


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## Sdajii (6 March 2013)

If I went to live in Iraq, sent my kids to the local school, and my kids said they didn't want to eat tortured animals and would only eat animals killed without torture and some whacko blessing them as they carried out the torture, I am sure they'd be told to f off back to Australia or go hungry.

It's a very very short sighted person who would not hear the alarm bells in this situation.


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## Calliope (6 March 2013)

DocK said:


> I appreciate that there will be a lot of people who see no need for even a discussion of this issue.  I think that every student should be catered for, if at all possible.  Every parent pays the same fees (it's a private school), the school promotes inclusivity,




The Muslim and Jewish parents who pay their school fees obviously have an expectation that their needs will be catered for. After all the school promotes "inclusivity" (sic) not "exclusivity".


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## chops_a_must (6 March 2013)

Why not ask the butcher to see if he can provide halal meat?


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## bellenuit (6 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> Why not ask the butcher to see if he can provide halal meat?




What if the butcher held the belief that animals slaughtered for human consumption should be killed as humanely as possible. Refusing to follow the halal method would mean he is being discriminated against.  Discrimination can work both ways.


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## chops_a_must (6 March 2013)

bellenuit said:


> What if the butcher held the belief that animals slaughtered for human consumption should be killed as humanely as possible. Refusing to follow the halal method would mean he is being discriminated against.  Discrimination can work both ways.




Then maybe he should be a vegetarian butcher?


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## Macquack (6 March 2013)

bellenuit said:


> What if the butcher held the belief that animals slaughtered for human consumption should be killed as humanely as possible. Refusing to follow the halal method would mean he is being discriminated against.  Discrimination can work both ways.




Bellenuit, I think you are over complicating an already complicated scenario.

Consumers are allowed to discriminate in their purchases, the issue is discrimination at the school, not at the market place.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> Then maybe he should be a vegetarian butcher?




Chops are an absolute must at any BBQ.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2013)

Calliope said:


> The Muslim and Jewish parents who pay their school fees obviously have an expectation that their needs will be catered for. After all the school promotes "inclusivity" (sic) not "exclusivity".




This a private school remember.  Exclusivity is part of the school's charter.  If kids from poor or bogan families were allowed to attend, the whole image would be ruined.  That's the whole idea of a private education.


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## So_Cynical (6 March 2013)

DocK said:


> I can see the logic behind the suggestion - the person who made it simply assumed that there'd be no difference in the final product as far as the majority of students would be concerned, but the minority that do have cultural requirements would also be catered for.




A minority gets to set the agenda? that just cant be good...i would boycott your BBQ's on principle.

Religion shouldn't be allowed to EVER set the agenda, dictate what does and doesn't happen...its offensive.

--------------------



McLovin said:


> I know a few people who actually prefer the taste.




Halal Tastes different...your taking the piss right?

--------------------



Gringotts Bank said:


> I'd buy the halal meat.
> 
> Then again.... the regular butchers *might go out of business* in the western suburbs.




Might go out of business? dude They're gone completely from some suburbs already, i don't have a genuine Aussie butcher within 5 km in any direction from where i live, hell even the Vietnamese bakers are moving on..i cant get hot bread on a Sunday morning any more.


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## Boggo (6 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Religion shouldn't be allowed to EVER set the agenda, dictate what does and doesn't happen...its offensive.




Religion, currently the greatest divisor in civilised society !


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## Calliope (6 March 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> This a private school remember.  Exclusivity is part of the school's charter.  If kids from poor or bogan families were allowed to attend, the whole image would be ruined.  That's the whole idea of a private education.




The "whole idea" of private education is choice. The "image" is that they turn out a better product than public schools. If "poor and bogan families" aspire to raising their children's choices then they have to work for it like everybody else.

You say "exclusivity is part of the school's charter". Do you have any basis for this ridiculous insinuation. I'm pretty sure DocK would disagree with you.


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## Julia (6 March 2013)

DocK said:


> The replies so far make for interesting reading - and are more or less what I expected - no matter which way we go, someone is going to be either offended, not catered to or upset.  I guess this is symptomatic of a multicultural society - there are always going to be differences with no "easy fix".   I find myself being a bit of a fence-sitter.  I think every student and family are entitled to their own dietary/cultural preferences and should have options made available for them at school functions, but I also completely understand the resentment that some feel when the status quo is thrown out in order to cater to the requirements of a minority.



You're pretty much answering your own question, DocK.  The greater question is whether we should have as our priority catering to a minority, that minority coming to Australia largely because they find our way of life here preferable to that in their home country.

If I were to be a parent at your school BBQ, I would not eat halal meat purely because the cruelty of the killing process sickens me.  So I would be discriminated against.  



> I also disagree with the idea that the longstanding butcher used by the school should be replaced without a qualm because he doesn't sell halal meat, as the vast majority of parents have been happy with his services for many years, and remain so.



Fully support you on this.  Loyalty is becoming sadly outdated.



Sdajii said:


> If I went to live in Iraq, sent my kids to the local school, and my kids said they didn't want to eat tortured animals and would only eat animals killed without torture and some whacko blessing them as they carried out the torture, I am sure they'd be told to f off back to Australia or go hungry.
> 
> It's a very very short sighted person who would not hear the alarm bells in this situation.



Exactly.




bellenuit said:


> What if the butcher held the belief that animals slaughtered for human consumption should be killed as humanely as possible. Refusing to follow the halal method would mean he is being discriminated against.  Discrimination can work both ways.






So_Cynical said:


> A minority gets to set the agenda? that just cant be good...i would boycott your BBQ's on principle.
> 
> Religion shouldn't be allowed to EVER set the agenda, dictate what does and doesn't happen...its offensive.



+1 to both above posts.


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## Gringotts Bank (6 March 2013)

Calliope said:


> The "whole idea" of private education is choice. The "image" is that they turn out a better product than public schools. If "poor and bogan families" aspire to raising their children's choices then they have to work for it like everybody else.
> 
> You say "exclusivity is part of the school's charter". Do you have any basis for this ridiculous insinuation. I'm pretty sure DocK would disagree with you.




Work for it?  LOL.  How long is the average person going to work to pay $30,000* a year from their after tax earnings?  Say you have two kids...that's $60,000.  So you have to be pulling well over $120,000 just to cover fees.  Where do you get the money for the mortgage, food, services and bills? 

Private schools are highly exclusive.  They exclude based upon wealth and ability (in the case of scholarship).  
That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  But let's be real.

*edit: year 12 fees.


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## McLovin (6 March 2013)

So_Cynical]Religion shouldn't be allowed to EVER set the agenda said:


> Halal Tastes different...your taking the piss right?




Apparently not...



> Do Halal products taste different from non-Halal products?
> 
> The process of making a product Halal will never adversely affect the taste or consumer satisfaction and can in fact improve it when properly handled, prepared, stored and delivered. For example, the Halal slaughter of animals is designed to cause the maximum amount of blood loss possible. Under refrigeration, this reduces the chance of food spoilage and is expected to enhance shelf life. For this reason, many consumers prefer the taste and appearance of Halal meat as opposed to other types. With other products, the difference may be subtle or even non-existent.




http://www.halal-australia.com.au/consumers/

The funny thing is, if the meat for the BBQ was already Halal, there'd be no problem.


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## Calliope (6 March 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Private schools are highly exclusive.  They exclude based upon wealth and ability (in the case of scholarship).
> That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  But let's be real.




So DocK belongs to the privileged wealthy upper-class. I don't think she would agree with that. You think like Swan, with a class war mentality. You obviously can't understand that some people scrimp and save to give their children a better start in life.


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## Surly (7 March 2013)

It is important to serve vegan halal kosher nut free gluten free lactose free foods to students 

If this is not possible serve either nothing...or whatever you want 

cheers
Surly


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## Tink (7 March 2013)

I think with all the allergies in children, something we didnt see alot of in our younger years, this has now added to the list. 
You would hope in Australia its done in a humane way.

I suppose it depends on the number of children its catering for too, whether its worth having the two BBQs and if it works out economically in the long run.

Hospitals have had to run on this, schools will be the same.


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## Gringotts Bank (7 March 2013)

Tink said:


> I think with all the allergies in children, something we didnt see alot of in our younger years, this has now added to the list.




Yes the number of kids with allergies is growing at an enormous rate.  Right now it's still limited to the children of anxious, hyper-vigilant parents however (the more relaxed parents don't have children who develop allergies).  But there's still a potential for it to become a full blown epidemic like RSI.  Remember RSI?   It came, it overwhelmed the workforce and was responsible for an enormous amount of disability and lost productivity ...then it just mysteriously disappeared.  No one gets it now.  Food allergies will be the same...they will disappear when parents start relaxing a bit.

The same dynamic is operating in Islam.  If they weren't so anxious that God was going to punish them for eating the wrong food, they'd get along just fine.


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## bunyip (7 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> If I went to live in Iraq, sent my kids to the local school, and my kids said they didn't want to eat tortured animals and would only eat animals killed without torture and some whacko blessing them as they carried out the torture, I am sure they'd be told to f off back to Australia or go hungry.
> 
> It's a very very short sighted person who would not hear the alarm bells in this situation.




Too bloody right. 
I’ve just about had a gutful of people who want to change the Australian culture. If they don’t like our culture and our ways and our values, then they should piss off to some other country that suits them better. 
There’s nothing more Australian than the good old Aussie barbeque. To hell with the people who want to make changes to it or any other part of our culture, particularly when those changes are based on their stupid fanatical religions.


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## bunyip (7 March 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Work for it?  LOL.  How long is the average person going to work to pay $30,000* a year from their after tax earnings?  Say you have two kids...that's $60,000.  So you have to be pulling well over $120,000 just to cover fees.  Where do you get the money for the mortgage, food, services and bills?
> 
> Private schools are highly exclusive.  They exclude based upon wealth and ability (in the case of scholarship).
> That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  But let's be real.
> ...




My wife and I sent our four kids to private school from grade 1 right through to grade 12. The most we paid out in school fees in any one year was around 33 grand. And I’m talking about a very high-achieving school here too - fourth highest academic standard in Queensland, 10 years in a row Australian athletic champions.
Our decision to give them a private school education was based primarily on what the school offered in term of academic standards and sporting and cultural standards and facilities. It had nothing to do with any desire for exclusivity.
There were all sorts of parents who sent their kids there – from professionals earing a few hundred grand a year, right down to struggling families where both parents worked in pretty ordinary jobs to earn well below 100 grand a year between them, so they could give their kids the best start in life.
Some parents we know took out loans just so they could give their kids the best possible education.
Private schools are not necessarily the exclusive domain of the rich.


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## db94 (7 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.
> 
> I suppose pandering to peoples' religious stupidity which calls for animal cruelty is more important than preventing animal cruelty.
> 
> ...




+4 well said. Not everyone can be pleased. If they want halal meat they can provide it at the BBQ. Just like vegetarians at my school's camps are told to bring the food they want instead of being catered for. Local butchers these days are very rare and should be supported.

EDIT: I graduated last year


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## johenmo (7 March 2013)

It is possible for muslims (at least some of them) to eat non-halal meat, if it is by necessity.  I had this conversations years ago with a muslim, who used to inspect our factory for halal cleaning. This covered in one Quranic verse(Surah)  2:173. 

Meat that is forbidden is classed Haram and to eat it knowingly is a sin.  To eat it unknowingly is not a sin (or at least as bad - I forget the term for this).  

So does this mean there's no necessity to provide different?  A different story from respecting differences.


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## Smurf1976 (7 March 2013)

Humane treatment of animals ought to take priority over religion so far as I'm concerned.

The school should make all possible efforts to ensure that all meat is from animals killed humanely. If that upsets someone then so be it - inhumane methods are not acceptable in Australia and that is the end of the story.


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## CanOz (7 March 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Humane treatment of animals ought to take priority over religion so far as I'm concerned.




So agree with that! The animals were here first after all...


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## McLovin (7 March 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> The school should make all possible efforts to ensure that all meat is from animals killed humanely. If that upsets someone then so be it - inhumane methods are not acceptable in Australia and that is the end of the story.




Ever seen a sow stall? It makes slitting an animal's throat seem kind. Perfectly legal too. Just like battery farm chickens. 

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/minister-backflips-on-sow-stall-ban-20121109-292lx.html


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## Julia (7 March 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Humane treatment of animals ought to take priority over religion so far as I'm concerned.
> 
> The school should make all possible efforts to ensure that all meat is from animals killed humanely. If that upsets someone then so be it - inhumane methods are not acceptable in Australia and that is the end of the story.



+1 x 10.



CanOz said:


> So agree with that! The animals were here first after all...



Nothing to do with who was here first.  Cruelty by a dominant species is hideous.


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## chops_a_must (7 March 2013)

Julia said:


> +1 x 10.
> 
> 
> Nothing to do with who was here first.  Cruelty by a dominant species is hideous.




Lions, ferrets, cats, dogs and humans are all hideously cruel.

I don't buy this cruelty to animals 21st century nonsense get up.

If you eat meat, it's cruel. If you don't like it - be a vego.

We let our older people die in more cruel ways than our cattle.

But if you see it for what it is, that's fine. But let's not pretend that things aren't what they are.


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## CanOz (7 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> Lions, ferrets, cats, dogs and humans are all hideously cruel.
> 
> I don't buy this cruelty to animals 21st century nonsense get up.
> 
> ...




Fair comment, but there are ways to kill and get it done with. You don't need to let an animal suffer Chops. 

Battery chickens and cattle feedlots disgust me beyond thought. If at had the entire decision i would raise my own proteins.

CanOz


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## Smurf1976 (7 March 2013)

CanOz said:


> Battery chickens and cattle feedlots disgust me beyond thought. If at had the entire decision i would raise my own proteins.



It was 1986 when I went inside one of those chicken batteries for the first (and hopefully last) time. I still recall the images very clearly in my mind and it's something I will never forget. There's a pretty nasty smell inside too.

As for the "free range costs too much" argument, my response is simply "so what?". It's not as though a rise in egg prices is going to put 100,000 people out of work and plunge the economy into recession or something like that so the economics aren't even a real issue.


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## sptrawler (8 March 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> It was 1986 when I went inside one of those chicken batteries for the first (and hopefully last) time. I still recall the images very clearly in my mind and it's something I will never forget. There's a pretty nasty smell inside too.
> 
> As for the "free range costs too much" argument, my response is simply "so what?". It's not as though a rise in egg prices is going to put 100,000 people out of work and plunge the economy into recession or something like that so the economics aren't even a real issue.




Also employs more people to actually go and pick up the eggs, rather than have them roll into the tray in front of the cage.
Then an auger transfers them to the collection bin.


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## bunyip (8 March 2013)

Julia said:


> Cruelty by a dominant species is hideous.




Guess you’re not a fan of those African wildlife doccos then, eh Julia, where half a dozen lions drag down a buffalo, or a cheetah runs down and kills a gazelle, or a leopard takes out a warthog?

I take your point though, that unnecessary cruelty by humans to animals in the slaughter process, or for that matter in any other situation, is unacceptable. 
The footage I’ve seen of animals being slaughtered by traditional methods in some of those Islamic countries, is, to put it mildly, barbaric and disturbing. As are many other Islamic customs.
The thought of them trying to impose their weirdo ideas on something as harmless and innocent as a school barbeque is quite offensive.


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## bunyip (8 March 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Also employs more people to actually go and pick up the eggs, rather than have them roll into the tray in front of the cage.
> Then an auger transfers them to the collection bin.




We’re getting a bit off topic here, but are you folks aware that ‘free range’ eggs are not necessarily free range at all?

A bloke down the road from me sells ‘free range’ eggs to a number of pubs and shops. His 100 chooks are in a big pen about six times the size of your average house. The ground in the pen is completely denuded of vegetation. The chooks are fed on bought grain that’s been chemically treated, and they get a small amount of seeds and greenery from a couple of dozen edible shrubs he’s planted. As for them catching grubs and and worms as they’d do in a true free range situation, forget it – the ground is so bare that there’s no leaf litter or any other ground cover to harbor grubs and worms. It’s just bare hard ground that’s been tramped down by a hundred chooks roaming over it every day. 
As far as I’m concerned he’s selling eggs under false pretenses by calling them free range eggs. But it’s legal, and there are many free range egg producers just like him. 
I always thought ‘free range’ meant the chooks were free to wander wherever they wanted, not locked in a pen, and lived entirely off the land. But that not necessarily the case.


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## Sdajii (8 March 2013)

bunyip said:


> We’re getting a bit off topic here, but are you folks aware that ‘free range’ eggs are not necessarily free range at all?
> 
> A bloke down the road from me sells ‘free range’ eggs to a number of pubs and shops. His 100 chooks are in a big pen about six times the size of your average house. The ground in the pen is completely denuded of vegetation. The chooks are fed on bought grain that’s been chemically treated, and they get a small amount of seeds and greenery from a couple of dozen edible shrubs he’s planted. As for them catching grubs and and worms as they’d do in a true free range situation, forget it – the ground is so bare that there’s no leaf litter or any other ground cover to harbor grubs and worms. It’s just bare hard ground that’s been tramped down by a hundred chooks roaming over it every day.
> As far as I’m concerned he’s selling eggs under false pretenses by calling them free range eggs. But it’s legal, and there are many free range egg producers just like him.
> I always thought ‘free range’ meant the chooks were free to wander wherever they wanted, not locked in a pen, and lived entirely off the land. But that not necessarily the case.




We're getting pretty off topic here, but oh well.

It's a myth that battery chickens are tortured and free range chickens live happy, carefree, peaceful lives in big open meadows. I've seen free range chicken farms where chickens are let loose in big open fields all day other than when they roost in the shed ('barn') at night. They're very unnatural and not pleasant. Chickens are vicious little monsters which fiercely fight for their place in the hierarchy (the origin of the term pecking order). Chickens naturally live in small groups, and even then the smallest one often lives a very hard and unpleasant life, but once the pecking order is established they get along okay. In an unnatural group of hundreds or thousands of chickens, it is impossible to establish a pecking order so they're constantly fighting. The smaller ones literally get pecked to death, often living sickly, tortured lives for weeks or months until the attacks and injuries get the better of them. It's very common to see chickens on free range farms with most of their feathers missing after they've been plucked out by other chickens. Comparing which is better for chicken wellbeing out of battery and free range is a bit like apples and oranges, they suffer in different ways, but neither is clearly better than the other. Perhaps because free range is more expensive, or because people are more happy to excuse chickens hurting each other than humans putting them in small cages, the naive public generally strongly believes that free range is clearly superior, but talk to people who have studied farming or work in the industry (unless they're biased free range farm owners!) and they'll tell you a different story.

With there being no clear ethical choice, I go for the cheaper, more efficient one. I do miss having my own chickens, it was walking down to the back of the yard to collect eggs in the morning laid by happy hens.


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## bunyip (8 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Comparing which is better for chicken wellbeing out of battery and free range is a bit like apples and oranges, they suffer in different ways, but neither is clearly better than the other.



Can’t agree with you there, Sdajii. My chooks are let out of the pen every day to roam more or less as they please, scratching in the leaf litter under trees for grubs and small lizards, catching grasshoppers etc. They come back to their pen each evening by choice, and I shut the gate on them as protection from foxes.
I can assure you they enjoy life immensely. I very much doubt if battery hens enjoy life in their cramped and completely unnatural conditions.

Now, I’m not sure what all this has to do with whether school barbies should serve halal meat, but heck, there’s no harm in getting off topic once in a while eh?


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## DocK (8 March 2013)

Calliope said:


> The "whole idea" of private education is choice. The "image" is that they turn out a better product than public schools. If "poor and bogan families" aspire to raising their children's choices then they have to work for it like everybody else.
> 
> You say "exclusivity is part of the school's charter". Do you have any basis for this ridiculous insinuation. I'm pretty sure DocK would disagree with you.




I would indeed.  From Dept of Ed Qld: 







> Explanation - Inclusivity describes the degree to which non-dominant groups are represented in classroom practices by participation. Non-dominant groups are identified in relation to broad societal-level dimensions of social inclusion/exclusion
> Lack of inclusivity is apparent when the students' backgrounds are ignored and they are treated as a homogenous group. This often results in some groups being unable or unwilling to contribute.
> 
> 
> ...



http://education.qld.gov.au/corporate/newbasics/html/pedagogies/differ/dif2a.html

My original post mentioned that this issue was raised at a P&F meeting.  Maybe I need to remind some that P&F stands for parents & friends.  It is certainly not a case of a minority group attempting to dictate terms, or diet, but more a case of the P&F committee wishing to ensure that _all_ students and parents feel welcomed, cared for and included.  Our school actively fosters tolerance, understanding and a desire to accommodate differing beliefs and cultures where possible.  Australia's demographics have changed markedly in the last several years, and to pretend otherwise would be futile.  

Having said that, the school follows and practices the Christian traditions of Easter and Christmas, with many activities based around these events in the junior school.  




Gringotts Bank said:


> Work for it?  LOL.  How long is the average person going to work to pay $30,000* a year from their after tax earnings?  Say you have two kids...that's $60,000.  So you have to be pulling well over $120,000 just to cover fees.  Where do you get the money for the mortgage, food, services and bills?
> 
> Private schools are highly exclusive.  They exclude based upon wealth and ability (in the case of scholarship).
> That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  But let's be real.
> ...



 The fees you've based your argument upon would apply to only the most prestigious private schools I'm guessing.  The one my children attend charges more in the range of $5 - $10K depending upon year level.   It is indeed true that not all parents can afford to send their children to a private school, but nor could the public schools in my area possibly cope if the private schools were not catering to a % of the students who would otherwise stretch the system to breaking point.  There are a few very wealthy families in our school community, many more are comfortable provided both parents are working, and there are some that scrimp and save to send their kids to the school of their choice.  Interestingly, our school has a rather high % of parents who are "tradies" and are sending their kids to a private school with the hope that they'll do better in life than their parents.



Calliope said:


> So DocK belongs to the privileged wealthy upper-class. I don't think she would agree with that. You think like Swan, with a class war mentality. You obviously can't understand that some people scrimp and save to give their children a better start in life.



Oh, if only.....  My kids are actually on one full and one half academic scholarship, for which I'm very thankful as I don't think we'd be able to stretch the budget far enough to cover the full fees if we had to.  I'd love to give the privileged upper-class lifestyle a whirl (at least for a little while), but I'm like a great deal of the other Mums in my school community - working part-time to bolster the family income and cover the school fees.  

My main concerns are the animal cruelty aspect, and that of loyalty to existing suppliers.  I understand that animals slaughtered in Qld in the halal method must be stunned before having their jugulars severed, but I'm aware that the RSPCA has reservations, and I'm not confident that the cruelty aspect would be of great importance to all halal butchers.  No animal slaughter is without a degree of cruelty, and those of us that eat meat must accept that it simply isn't possible for there to be absolutely no degree of suffering by the animals we consume - but I'd prefer to believe the least possible cruelty was involved in the preparation of the food I eat.  

Although it's certainly true that muslims (not sure about Jews or other minorities) can eat non-halal meat if they have no other choice - I don't know that many would consider a snag at a school sports carnival an example of having no other choice.  At present, most of the children who don't wish to eat non-halal meat simply bring their own food, or eat the vegie burgers we cook separately to cater for them and the few vegetarian students.  

I've actually had a quiet word with the butcher that currently supplies us and he does not deal with any halal suppliers and has no intention of going down that road.  He indicated to me that putting a halal sign in his window or on any of his products is almost guaranteed to alienate more of his existing customer base than the potential new business he'd potentially gain.  I guess that's a fairly telling comment on the resentment the general community is currently feeling with the various accommodations being made/imposed upon it due to minority groups.  Personally I feel there is a generational aspect to this resentment, with gen Y being far more tolerant than the baby boomers - which is perfectly understandable as they've grown up in a very different Australia to that of their grandparents' childhoods.  People resent change, and I feel this will be the deciding factor in the P&C's eventual decision - I'm predicting the majority will vote to retain the status quo and seize upon any excuse other than voice the politically incorrect (and outdated in my view) notion that those that come to this country should be made to think as we do, eat as we do, behave as we do, or bugger off!


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## chops_a_must (8 March 2013)

Speaking from experience...

Our cricket club puts on a free sausage sizzle with its AGM.

We have Pakistanis, Indians, Tamils, singhas, bangladeshis, racist Aussies and many others. A liquorice all sorts.

We have a BBQ for plain meat. We also have another for halal and veggie replacements. We have a few Vegos as well.

It works well. And after a few beers, the racist Aussie types end up eating the leftover halal and veggie stuff anyway.


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## chops_a_must (8 March 2013)

So I guess the moral of the story is that you should give the kids and parents beer.

That way they won't know the difference anyway.


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## DocK (8 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> Speaking from experience...
> 
> Our cricket club puts on a free sausage sizzle with its AGM.
> 
> ...




I agree - I think this would be the best way forward.  We presently run 2 BBQs anyway, so only need replace the older.  The present supplier would retain at least half of our business, which is a better outcome than taking it all away from him.  I have no doubt that hungry teenagers will polish off whatever is left over - most of the kids couldn't care less whether it's halal or not anyway.  

I'm not entirely sure the principal would look kindly upon the P&F supplying beer though - no matter how popular a move it might be with the Dads


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## CanOz (8 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> Speaking from experience...
> 
> Our cricket club puts on a free sausage sizzle with its AGM.
> 
> We have Pakistanis, Indians, Tamils, singhas, bangladeshis, racist Aussies and many others. A liquorice all sorts.




Which group best describes you Chops?


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## chops_a_must (8 March 2013)

CanOz said:


> Which group best describes you Chops?




The sausage.


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## CanOz (8 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> The sausage.




ROTF...Good answer


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 March 2013)

I quite like eating foreign tucker, spaghetti, dim sims, halal, kosher, pie floaters, the list is endless.

gg


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## Miss Hale (8 March 2013)

DocK said:


> I've actually had a quiet word with the butcher that currently supplies us and he does not deal with any halal suppliers and has no intention of going down that road.  He indicated to me that putting a halal sign in his window or on any of his products is almost guaranteed to alienate more of his existing customer base than the potential new business he'd potentially gain.  I guess that's a fairly telling comment on the resentment the general community is currently feeling with the various accommodations being made/imposed upon it due to minority groups.  Personally I feel there is a generational aspect to this resentment, with gen Y being far more tolerant than the baby boomers - which is perfectly understandable as they've grown up in a very different Australia to that of their grandparents' childhoods.




I'm not sure its a generational thing, I know people of all generations who are not happy with the concessions being made to cater for some people in our community.



DocK said:


> People resent change, and I feel this will be the deciding factor in the P&C's eventual decision - I'm predicting the majority will vote to retain the status quo and seize upon any excuse other than voice the politically incorrect (and outdated in my view) notion that those that come to this country should be made to think as we do, eat as we do, behave as we do, or bugger off!




People only resent change if it's change for the worse. Australia is well within its rights to ask of new people coming into their country that they must think as we do, eat as we do, behave as we do and bugger off if that's how we feel, we are a sovereign nation and we can do as we like.  In reality we don't put these type of requirements on people coming to Australia but we do require them to abide by our laws and fit in to our culture. Previous immigrants did this while still maintaining aspects of their original culture which in time enriched our culture.  I think part of the resentment towards Halal meat, apart from concerns about its cruelty, is that it represents a culture that has been shown time and again not to be compatible with our culture.  I used to be philisophical about Islam being part of our culture and reluctant to believe the people that criticised it so heavily but a recent personal experience highlighted to me how it is indeed a threat to our culture and I do not support any concessions to this culture at all.


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## So_Cynical (8 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Comparing which is better for chicken wellbeing out of battery and free range is a bit like apples and oranges, they suffer in different ways, but neither is clearly better than the other..




First its unprecedented weather statistics and now its crazy talk about chickens...free range is clearly better, absolutely beyond dispute and discussion....record temperatures in 6 states across 3 time zones and 3 weather zones the same.


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> First its unprecedented weather statistics and now its crazy talk about chickens...free range is clearly better, absolutely beyond dispute and discussion....record temperatures in 6 states across 3 time zones and 3 weather zones the same.




Next we will be back to your bloody nasal polyp.

Can the Moderator please get this thread back on track.

gg


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## Happy (8 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> Political correctness is out of control. I'm actually very surprised that political correctness hasn't yet vilified halal meat in the west. Many people (myself included) consider the halal method of killing to be very inhumane. Rather than a quick, instant, painless kill, the animal is sliced with a blade and bled to death.
> 
> ....




How about Ha... BBQ there is video screened how animals are tortured to satisfy Ha... regime.

Lets kids see if kids can watch it and eat it !


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## inyaface (9 March 2013)

Happy said:


> How about Ha... BBQ there is video screened how animals are tortured to satisfy Ha... regime.
> 
> Lets kids see if kids can watch it and eat it !




That will cause too many throw ups.....no thank you


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## bunyip (9 March 2013)

Miss Hale said:


> I'm not sure its a generational thing, I know people of all generations who are not happy with the concessions being made to cater for some people in our community.
> 
> 
> 
> People only resent change if it's change for the worse. Australia is well within its rights to ask of new people coming into their country that they must think as we do, eat as we do, behave as we do and bugger off if that's how we feel, we are a sovereign nation and we can do as we like.  In reality we don't put these type of requirements on people coming to Australia but we do require them to abide by our laws and fit in to our culture. Previous immigrants did this while still maintaining aspects of their original culture which in time enriched our culture.  I think part of the resentment towards Halal meat, apart from concerns about its cruelty, is that it represents a culture that has been shown time and again not to be compatible with our culture.  I used to be philisophical about Islam being part of our culture and reluctant to believe the people that criticised it so heavily but a recent personal experience highlighted to me how it is indeed a threat to our culture and I do not support any concessions to this culture at all.




A friend of mine works as a security officer at a meat works. 
This business exports a small percentage of its meat to Islamic countries. Hence there has to be some Muslims on the killing floor to ensure the animals are slaughtered according to Islamic tradition. 
Recently the Islamic contingent started insisting that they be provided with their own toilet block because they found it unacceptable to use the same toilets as the other meat workers. So now a separate toilet block has been built for the Muslims, and the other workers are not allowed to use it.

This sort of thing disgusts and offends me. Who the hell do these people think they are!!??

One well endowed woman in the meat works office wears low cut blouses to show a bit of cleavage. One of the Muslim blokes grabbed her by the boobs. He was reprimanded, but he wasn’t dismissed – anyone else would have copped instant dismissal for the same offence.

I’m with Miss Hale – I don't supprt any concessions whatsoever to Islamic culture....workplace toilets, school barbeques or whatever.


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## Miss Hale (9 March 2013)

bunyip said:


> Recently the Islamic contingent started insisting that they be provided with their own toilet block because they found it unacceptable to use the same toilets as the other meat workers. So now a separate toilet block has been built for the Muslims, and the other workers are not allowed to use it.
> 
> This sort of thing disgusts and offends me. Who the hell do these people think they are!!??




Has there been any other emmigrant group that has even come close to asking for these sort of things?  No, there hasn't.  My question is, if they hate us so much that they won't even use the same toilets as us why do they want to come here in the first place?  Why not migrate to a country that is Islamic? Why are they leaving their Islamic homeland? The only conclusion is that they plan to make us Islamic, in which case, why are we accepting them into our country? 



bunyip said:


> One well endowed woman in the meat works office wears low cut blouses to show a bit of cleavage. One of the Muslim blokes grabbed her by the boobs. He was reprimanded, but he wasn’t dismissed – anyone else would have copped instant dismissal for the same offence.
> 
> I’m with Miss Hale – I don't supprt any concessions whatsoever to Islamic culture....workplace toilets, school barbeques or whatever.




This is the thing, once I thought that if they wanted the women in their culture to wear headscarves etc. well that was their choice and their business not realising that if the rest of us don't comply there will be consequences.  Sorry, not on, and I would like to see our government do something about it  

Apologies DocK for hijacking your thread


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## pixel (9 March 2013)

30 years ago, it was Aussie tradition to have blokes and sheilas stand in different corners at a BBQ.
That has gradually changed to the point where it's now even acceptable to have a sheila light the gas and turn the meat - provided she does it properly. It took a few of us blokes some getting used to, but now hardly anybody has reservations about integrating. That's how Australian Culture has evolved - to the better, methinks.

So, now there's a bunch of newcomers, sticking by some ancient rules that were made up by desert tribes, and calling it "Culture". And what do we do? We're falling over ourselves to drop our own values to accommodate this tiny minority, lest a handful of inflexible d**kheads can stick to their superstition? 



> I’m with Miss Hale – I don't supprt any concessions whatsoever to Islamic culture....workplace toilets, school barbeques or whatever.



How idiotic! *It is NOT "culture". It is racism, disguised as religion, perpetuated by a power-hungry group of egomaniacs!*

I know many people, who were brought up in different faiths: Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh. I must be lucky that most people I know have a sufficient degree of intelligence to give them the flexibility to recognise dietary rules for what they are. If you lack refrigeration, as ancient Jews and Arabs did, you prevent getting sick by not eating seafood or pork that is likely to "go off". You may even be forced to have a rule for which hand to use tor eating and greeting, and which for touching your bum. But every one of the people I have shared a meal with appreciates the benefits of soap and water being today in sufficient supply, the increased variety of food thanks to modern preservation methods, and the quality of meat of any kind sourced from our local butcher.

I find it extremely offensive and disgusting that any group of Australians would even consider dumping their local butcher, who has supported them for decades, out of fear that one or two newbies may not be willing to integrate and accept the culture of their new home. Private school or not, the first thing that should be taught is integration, not a new apartheid.


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## Julia (9 March 2013)

pixel said:


> I find it extremely offensive and disgusting that any group of Australians would even consider dumping their local butcher, who has supported them for decades, out of fear that one or two newbies may not be willing to integrate and accept the culture of their new home. Private school or not, the first thing that should be taught is integration, not a new apartheid.



+1.  And to Miss Hale's and Bunyip's remarks.
(Let's remember that DocK has pointed her own preference for retaining the original butcher.)


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## Smurf1976 (9 March 2013)

Suppose that I go to one of these Islamic countries and try to force some Australian (or American or any other Western country) culture on them.

Think they'd tolerate it? Not likely.....

I have no problem with these people coming to Australia. But we don't use cruel methods to kill animals in this country, and no religious belief ought to override that. End of story.


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## spooly74 (9 March 2013)

pixel said:
			
		

> So, now there's a bunch of newcomers, sticking by some ancient rules that were made up by desert tribes, and calling it "Culture". And what do we do? We're falling over ourselves to drop our own values to accommodate this tiny minority, lest a handful of inflexible d**kheads can stick to their superstition?




Agreed, but you could argue that Australia was founded on Christian values. Values which have taken Australia from the Stone Age to the Information Age in 200 years. Unparralled in human history. And I see no reason, none whatsoever, to start jettisoning them now in favour of the recently imported principles of cultures which have failed miserably in their own homelands.


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## Sdajii (11 March 2013)

We've become so tolerant that we'll tolerate other people being intolerant of us. If you want your torture meat I respect it, but why should you stop me having pork chops or chicken wings or whatever else I may happen to feel like? The very fact that these people want to put restrictions on others screams as a reason to ignore their request to impose restrictions on others, even if those restrictions seem trivial. If we give away our freedom and principles we start our way down a slope we may fail to get back up. Even if it's a small thing, we are doing something so bad if we move in that direction. Often the damage isn't obvious until you see it behind you.

So cynical: Go do an agriculture course or talk to some unbiased people who know the industry well. I'm guessing you're basing your belief on gut feeling or what the RSPCA makes money out of saying or something. Go talk to any ag science student.


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## Miss Hale (11 March 2013)

bunyip said:


> Can’t agree with you there, Sdajii. My chooks are let out of the pen every day to roam more or less as they please, scratching in the leaf litter under trees for grubs and small lizards, catching grasshoppers etc. They come back to their pen each evening by choice, and I shut the gate on them as protection from foxes.
> I can assure you they enjoy life immensely. I very much doubt if battery hens enjoy life in their cramped and completely unnatural conditions.




However you are comparing free range on a small scale with commercial battery operations.  I used to have free range chooks too, a small happy group who wandered freely around our very large country garden, eating my petunias  and laying their egss in odd places   I was so soppy about them that they stayed around as pets after they were past laying age, we just didn't have the heart to get rid of them after all the eggs they gave us and they were clearly happy and contented pottering around the garden. 

The free range that Sdajii talks about is on a commercial scale and while I think on balance it's better than a battery situation it definitely has it's problems and is a lot different to the type of free range that is a few chooks in your backyard.


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## Sdajii (11 March 2013)

Obviously on a small scale of around a dozen or less chickens, as is typical of a back yard, absolutely, the chickens are happiest. When you see hundreds or thousands together it's not a big, happy family. If you think it's absolutely clear cut you aren't familiar with commercial chicken farming.


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## Ruby (11 March 2013)

Julia said:


> +1.  And to Miss Hale's and Bunyip's remarks.
> (Let's remember that DocK has pointed her own preference for retaining the original butcher.)




I have come rather late to this thread, but I too endorse Miss Hales', Bunyip's and Pixel's remarks.

It is galling to me to think that an organisation would even think of changing a social and cultural activity, against the wishes of many, simply to please a small minority.  

I don't want to eat halal meat.  It is killed less humanely than non-halal meat, and it has some sort of mumbo-jumbo incanted over it.  I object to that.   So I suppose if I were there I would be expected to forego my pork sausages and eat meat slaughtered in a way to which I object, just to satisfy a foreign cultural belief - which is based on nonsense anyway.   What about my feelings?  My cultural beliefs?

Oh, and to say it tastes different is a load of $%^&.  It is no better for you either.


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## sails (11 March 2013)

Yes, I'm late to the thread too and agree with others here.

I guess the thing is that this is likely just the beginning.  What will be the next request?  Will it be that all female teachers must have their heads covered?   Then what?

Are they using the the kindness and the good nature of  Aussies in the name of multiculturalism?  It is openly known that they plan to take over Australia.

And I don't support cruelty to animals either.


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## So_Cynical (11 March 2013)

Sdajii said:


> So cynical: Go do an agriculture course or talk to some unbiased people who know the industry well. I'm guessing you're basing your belief on gut feeling or what the RSPCA makes money out of saying or something. Go talk to any ag science student.




I worked on the land for a decade and a half...raised chickens, worked in battery hen sheds, picked Tomatoes, planted trees, cleared scrub and dug fence post holes...chickens are dumb and i cant say i have ever seen one smile but i have seen them living in appalling conditions and i have seen them chasing a cockroach around a log and rolling around in the dirt.


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## sptrawler (11 March 2013)

sails said:


> Yes, I'm late to the thread too and agree with others here.
> 
> I guess the thing is that this is likely just the beginning.  What will be the next request?  Will it be that all female teachers must have their heads covered?   Then what?
> 
> ...




Well sails, if you want to take over a country, that is aligned to a superpower, the only way to do it is from within.

If Indonesia or any other SE Asian country tried to invade Australia by force, they would not only have the U.S and U.K all over them, the EU would join in also.

Due to our small population base, a passive takeover by immigration is much easier.
There are 300million in Indonesia alone, it doesn't take a brain sugeon to work out how easy it would be to relocate a voting majority here.lol
It's a shame Labor are ringing the bell "come on down"
It just encourages more undermining of our structure. IMO


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## DocK (11 March 2013)

Whilst we're all entitled to our own views, I thought I might just correct the assumption that seems to be accepted that the "minority group" has demanded or even requested any change in the current proceedings - they haven't.  It simply isn't the case that they're trying to dictate diet or impose their culture on the rest of the school.  At the school in question the uniform protocols are very strict and do not allow for the wearing of any head scarves or covering.  The school has no religious affiliations but follows the Christian traditions of Easter and Christmas, and the prayer at a few formal occasions is based on a Christian God.  There has never been any question of the culture of the school changing in order to adapt to muslim or other minority practices.  A member of the P&F committee (who is not a member of any minority group) was simply proposing a method of simplifying  our current snag/bbq cooking procedures, given the increased numbers of halal eaters at the school - being proactive I guess.  There has not been any complaint made or criticism levelled by any of the muslim or jewish families at the school - to the best of my knowledge all of the non-Christian students and their families have absolutely no desire to impose their belief systems on the rest of us, being well aware of the school culture before enrolling their children.  It's certainly not a case of a minority group seeking to enforce their culture or dietary choices on the rest of the school - more like a member of the P&F who hasn't fully thought through a suggestion that she thought would just make cooking BBQs a bit simpler for us.  I suspected the wider school community would take issue with her suggestion, as I did for my own reasons, and the response on this forum has been enough to convince me to try to convince the P&F committee to nix the idea before we're accused of wanting to bring in Sharia law


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## sails (11 March 2013)

DocK said:


> Whilst we're all entitled to our own views, I thought I might just correct the assumption that seems to be accepted that the "minority group" has demanded or even requested any change in the current proceedings - they haven't.  It simply isn't the case that they're trying to dictate diet or impose their culture on the rest of the school.  At the school in question the uniform protocols are very strict and do not allow for the wearing of any head scarves or covering.  The school has no religious affiliations but follows the Christian traditions of Easter and Christmas, and the prayer at a few formal occasions is based on a Christian God.  There has never been any question of the culture of the school changing in order to adapt to muslim or other minority practices.  A member of the P&F committee (who is not a member of any minority group) was simply proposing a method of simplifying  our current snag/bbq cooking procedures, given the increased numbers of halal eaters at the school - being proactive I guess.  There has not been any complaint made or criticism levelled by any of the muslim or jewish families at the school - to the best of my knowledge all of the non-Christian students and their families have absolutely no desire to impose their belief systems on the rest of us, being well aware of the school culture before enrolling their children.  It's certainly not a case of a minority group seeking to enforce their culture or dietary choices on the rest of the school - more like a member of the P&F who hasn't fully thought through a suggestion that she thought would just make cooking BBQs a bit simpler for us.  I suspected the wider school community would take issue with her suggestion, as I did for my own reasons, and the response on this forum has been enough to convince me to try to convince the P&F committee to nix the idea before we're accused of wanting to bring in Sharia law





DocK - my apologies as it seems I misunderstood as I thought there was pressure being applied.  That's the problem with being late to a thread and skimming through the posts fairly quickly... 

However, what I posted, I wrote out of my own concern. I think Aussies are becoming increasingly concerned with calls for Sharia law in this country and for the future of our kids and grandkids here.  I help care extensively for one little 6 year old granddaughter and, when I read of so many boat arrivals together with the statements of  the muslim intention to take over Australia, I do worry about her future and whether she will be able to enjoy the same freedom which I have enjoyed in this wonderful country.

That said, I can see where you are coming from that it would simply make things easier from a catering perspective!


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## pixel (12 March 2013)

DocK said:


> Whilst we're all entitled to our own views, I thought I might just correct the assumption that seems to be accepted that the "minority group" has demanded or even requested any change in the current proceedings - they haven't.  It simply isn't the case that they're trying to dictate diet or impose their culture on the rest of the school.  At the school in question the uniform protocols are very strict and do not allow for the wearing of any head scarves or covering.  The school has no religious affiliations but follows the Christian traditions of Easter and Christmas, and the prayer at a few formal occasions is based on a Christian God.  There has never been any question of the culture of the school changing in order to adapt to muslim or other minority practices.  A member of the P&F committee (who is not a member of any minority group) was simply proposing a method of simplifying  our current snag/bbq cooking procedures, given the increased numbers of halal eaters at the school - being proactive I guess.  There has not been any complaint made or criticism levelled by any of the muslim or jewish families at the school - to the best of my knowledge all of the non-Christian students and their families have absolutely no desire to impose their belief systems on the rest of us, being well aware of the school culture before enrolling their children.  It's certainly not a case of a minority group seeking to enforce their culture or dietary choices on the rest of the school - more like a member of the P&F who hasn't fully thought through a suggestion that she thought would just make cooking BBQs a bit simpler for us.  I suspected the wider school community would take issue with her suggestion, as I did for my own reasons, and the response on this forum has been enough to convince me to try to convince the P&F committee to nix the idea before we're accused of wanting to bring in Sharia law




Thanks for clarifying that, DocK

To an extent, I had already assumed that the question might have been raised by some "concerned" non-Muslims, scared of being not PC enough. Hence also my reference to my acquaintances, who have by and large overcome food taboos.
If it's a Private School, you would expect the parents to be generally better-educated and taking a more rational approach. You might tell the lady, who raised the question in the first place, "You worry too much. It's a non-issue!".

PS: Feel free to pass on to her what I said about the very notion:


> I find it extremely offensive and disgusting that any group of *Australians *would even consider dumping their local butcher, who has supported them for decades, out of fear that one or two newbies may not be willing to integrate and accept the culture of their new home. Private school or not, the first thing that should be taught is integration, not a new apartheid.


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## bunyip (12 March 2013)

DocK said:


> Whilst we're all entitled to our own views, I thought I might just correct the assumption that seems to be accepted that the "minority group" has demanded or even requested any change in the current proceedings - they haven't.
> A member of the P&F committee (who is not a member of any minority group) was simply proposing a method of simplifying  our current snag/bbq cooking procedures, given the increased numbers of halal eaters at the school - being proactive I guess.




I was fully aware that the suggestion to use halal meat came from one woman, not from the Jewish or Muslim parents.
I would suggest that like many do gooders who truly beleive they’re trying to help, she simply didn’t think things through very clearly. If she had, she would have realised that at a barbeque in an Australian school, there should be no restrictions on the basis of religious or cultural beleifs as to what meat can or can’t be used. 
Normally there’s a variety of meat at barbies......beef, sausages, sometimes some pork or lamb chops, maybe some chicken kebabs, with all meat slaughtered by conventional Australian methods.
Nobody should be excluded from offering or eating any of this meat because of the religious or cultural beliefs of anyone else.

If the Muslims or Jews or anyone else, for whatever reason, choose not to eat any of this meat, then that’s up to them.


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## Calliope (12 March 2013)

DocK said:


> It's certainly not a case of a minority group seeking to enforce their culture or dietary choices on the rest of the school - more like a member of the P&F who hasn't fully thought through a suggestion that she thought would just make cooking BBQs a bit simpler for us.  *I suspected the wider school community would take issue with her suggestion, as I did for my own reasons, and the response on this forum has been enough to convince me* to try to convince the P&F committee to nix the idea before we're accused of wanting to bring in Sharia law




Why didn't you just take it up with her? Blind Freddy could have told you what the response on this forum would be.


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## bellenuit (12 March 2013)

Calliope said:


> Why didn't you just take it up with her? Blind Freddy could have told you what the response on this forum would be.





Perhaps she just needs to be made aware of what the Halal slaughter method entails.  I only had a vague idea until I started reading this thread.


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## Ruby (12 March 2013)

DocK said:


> A member of the P&F committee (who is not a member of any minority group) was simply proposing a method of simplifying  our current snag/bbq cooking procedures, given the increased numbers of halal eaters at the school - being proactive I guess.




If that is the case, then the woman concerned was naive, ignorant, or spoke without giving any thought to the matter.  Whatever her reasons for doing so, she was still suggesting that everyone submit to the dictates of a foreign culture, which to many, is abhorrrent.  That is not being proactive.  Why did she not suggest that everyone just eat the meat that has always been provided?  That also simplifies matters.   Muslims *choose *to eat halal meat.  They are not forced to.  Why should we change our customs to suit them?  *That *is what this woman was suggesting.


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## Miss Hale (5 April 2013)

DocK, are you able to let us know what the eventual decision of the P&F committe on this matter? 

On a related issue.  It seems Qantas how now banned pork from its flights to and from Europe as a result of its deal with Emirates. 




> QANTAS has removed pork from its in-flight menu on flights to and from Europe as a result of its partnership with Middle Eastern airline Emirates.
> 
> No food containing pork or pork products will be served on those flights - which now has a stopover in Dubai - because it is strictly forbidden in Islam and is considered "unholy".




From the same article, it seems that some airlines are already serving meals prepared in the halal way.  I wonder if they make passengers aware of this on the flights, or at the time of booking.



> Virgin Australia does not serve pork on flights to and from Abu Dhabi and all meals that are prepared are halal accredited, with meat prepared in a way prescribed by Islamic law.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...to-respect-islam/story-e6freuy9-1226612841997


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## DocK (5 April 2013)

Miss Hale said:


> DocK, are you able to let us know what the eventual decision of the P&F committe on this matter?




No decision has been made so far, to the best of my knowledge.  I daresay the matter will be raised for discussion and a decision at the next P&F meeting now that the idea has been put forward.  I shall voice my concerns and vote against it - I'm in favour of maintaining the present practice of cooking the small amount of halal meat that is required separately.  I'll update this thread when and if the matter is raised again.


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## Julia (5 April 2013)

Miss Hale said:


> On a related issue.  It seems Qantas how now banned pork from its flights to and from Europe as a result of its deal with Emirates.



I just about choked on my breakfast when I heard that!  They are also, in deference to Islam, excluding the use of any alcohol in their food preparation.  
This is ridiculous imo.  Muslims who don't want to eat pork will surely have some alternative.  Why on earth is there all this sucking up to Muslims???


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## Miss Hale (5 April 2013)

Julia said:


> I just about choked on my breakfast when I heard that!  They are also, in deference to Islam, excluding the use of any alcohol in their food preparation.
> This is ridiculous imo.  Muslims who don't want to eat pork will surely have some alternative.  Why on earth is there all this sucking up to Muslims???




I agree Julia. People who follow the Jewish faith also avoid pork and yet I don't recall anyone altering their menus to cater for Jews in the past.  Will they be taking all meat off the menu on Good Friday to cater for the Catholics?  Somehow I doubt it.  Perhaps just remove meat altogether so as not to offend vegetarians


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## Miss Hale (5 April 2013)

DocK said:


> No decision has been made so far, to the best of my knowledge.  I daresay the matter will be raised for discussion and a decision at the next P&F meeting now that the idea has been put forward.  I shall voice my concerns and vote against it - I'm in favour of maintaining the present practice of cooking the small amount of halal meat that is required separately.  I'll update this thread when and if the matter is raised again.




Thanks for the update DocK, will be interested to hear the outcome


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## DB008 (5 April 2013)

Julia said:


> I just about choked on my breakfast when I heard that!  They are also, in deference to Islam, excluding the use of any alcohol in their food preparation.
> This is ridiculous imo.  Muslims who don't want to eat pork will surely have some alternative.  Why on earth is there all this sucking up to Muslims???




Did you see my link to the Lego recall/self imposed ban I post in the 'Religion' thread yesterday?

The 'tolerant' are caving to the 'intolerant'. Work that out.


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## drsmith (5 April 2013)

My thoughts on this are very simple.

When in Rome, ........................


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## Sdajii (6 April 2013)

drsmith said:


> My thoughts on this are very simple.
> 
> When in Rome, ........................




...convert Rome to an Islamic state. 

(apparently)


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## AdamVW (6 April 2013)

bunyip said:


> I was fully aware that the suggestion to use halal meat came from one woman, not from the Jewish or Muslim parents.
> I would suggest that like many do gooders who truly beleive they’re trying to help, she simply didn’t think things through very clearly. If she had, she would have realised that at a barbeque in an Australian school, there should be no restrictions on the basis of religious or cultural beleifs as to what meat can or can’t be used.
> Normally there’s a variety of meat at barbies......beef, sausages, sometimes some pork or lamb chops, maybe some chicken kebabs, with all meat slaughtered by conventional Australian methods.
> Nobody should be excluded from offering or eating any of this meat because of the religious or cultural beliefs of anyone else.
> ...




That's right bunyp and muslims are not forbidden from eating non-halal meat (apart from pork) and even then, if they are not aware that a food (such as sausages) has pork in it then they are not committing an offence against the religion.

So, really there is no necessity to serve halal meat at schools, however, it is (in my experience) very good meat.  Eg, we always eat Steggles chicken because it is great chicken and as it turns out, it is halal.


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## Julia (6 April 2013)

AdamVW said:


> So, really there is no necessity to serve halal meat at schools, however, it is (in my experience) very good meat.  Eg, we always eat Steggles chicken because it is great chicken and as it turns out, it is halal.




You're quite happy that the halal killing process is significantly cruel to the animal?


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## gordon2007 (6 April 2013)

I know this will sound rude, but I really don't care how any animal is killed. As long as it tastes nice and fills my belly is all that matters to me when it comes to food. 

As a side note, I've consumed, dog, monkey and quite a few other animals I cant' even recall during my days 
in asia. 

But I respect other peoples opinions on what they will and will not eat for whatever reasons. 



Julia said:


> You're quite happy that the halal killing process is significantly cruel to the animal?


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