# Why do you trade?



## Cartman (21 December 2008)

Ok serious question here 

its sunday arvo and ive had a cupla light ales; and the creative question juices are flowing  

bit of caffuffel on the other threads with Tech etc which made me think- ---

If u r wealthy enuff with YOUR regular job ----------- Y do YOU trade ??????


ie  What makes us take risk when we dont actually need to? 

disclaimer;   im a poor sob so i need to trade  lol  

just thought it might be a question with interesting answers


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## mazzatelli1000 (21 December 2008)

*Re: YYYYYYYYYYYYY*



Cartman said:


> If u r wealthy enuff with YOUR regular job ----------- Y do YOU trade ??????




1) One may not feel wealthy enough
2) If one is wealthly enough, one is not content to leave spare cash just lying around, and would like to earn returns higher than the risk free rate

It is like asking why Trump, Packer etc. continue to venture into new business deals when then could just keep money in the bank and live off the interest IMO


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## Cartman (21 December 2008)

*Re: YYYYYYYYYYYYY*



mazzatelli1000 said:


> 1) One may not feel wealthy enough
> 2) If one is wealthly enough, one is not content to leave spare cash just lying around, and would like to earn returns higher than the risk free rate
> 
> It is like asking why Trump, Packer etc. continue to venture into new business deals when then could just keep money in the bank and live off the interest IMO




Thanks Mazza ------- does that equate to greed??? (part two of the original question ---- there is always a part two!!)

ps there may be more parts


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## MRC & Co (21 December 2008)

I reckon it's just the mental stimulation and challenge.


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## Cartman (21 December 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> I reckon it's just the mental stimulation and challenge.




ever tried Chess Mirc ??


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## mazzatelli1000 (21 December 2008)

Cartman said:


> Thanks Mazza ------- does that equate to greed??? (part two of the original question ---- there is always a part two!!)
> 
> ps there may be more parts




It could be, but if you have a chance to further improve yourself - why not??
You always have the option of taking that extra dough and putting it back into the community

Obviously I don't haha!! 



MRC & Co said:


> I reckon it's just the mental stimulation and challenge.




This may come down to personal preference
Being a martial artist and trader - I defnitely agree about the mental stimulation and challenge. Both discplines offer great potential if you get there!!! 

But I reckon if I could choose - i wouldn't work at all....would just be training all day


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## beerwm (21 December 2008)

Just a Newbie here;

I like the fact, the more you learn/read the more you gain.

Performance:Reward

The better you perform the more you are rewarded.


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## Cartman (21 December 2008)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> It could be, but if you have a chance to further improve yourself - why not??




but if your day gig is providing adequate income where is the improvement in making extra above what you really need?  sounds like greed to me 



mazzatelli1000 said:


> You always have the option of taking that extra dough and putting it back into the community
> 
> Obviously I don't haha!!




Greed it is !!! Shame on you MAzz 




beerwm said:


> Just a Newbie here;
> 
> I like the fact, the more you learn/read the more you gain.
> 
> ...




thanks Beer (your name has a familiar ring to it  ) 

Qu. Is the reward you get for your performance satisfying due to monetary gains or simply because you feel good about being good at it----    if you are also good at your day job y do you think being good at trading is more or less satisfying?  and Y is that?

deep questions eh?!


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## Cartman (21 December 2008)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> Being a martial artist and trader






ps if you are a martial artist --- i agree with anything and everything you say Mazza


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## theasxgorilla (21 December 2008)

Cartman said:


> Ok serious question here
> 
> its sunday arvo and ive had a cupla light ales; and the creative question juices are flowing
> 
> ...




Courtesy of tech/a on another thread quite some time ago we have the following calculator:

http://www.bloomberg.com/invest/calculators/retire.html

Go there and play with it and you'll find that many (most) people, even those that right now feel wealthy enough from their regular jobs need to find a way of earning better than the cash rate to meet their retirement goals.

I trade because I need to meet retirement goals and the funds management industry gets paid irrespective of whether their performance suggests they deserve it.


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## Naked shorts (21 December 2008)

Cartman said:


> its sunday arvo and ive had a cupla light ales; and the creative question juices are flowing




Lol so thats why you posted all those other werid comments :

Im trading because a normal job wont help me fund what I want to do.

I definatly agree with MRC aswell. The challenge of trading is fantasic, I love it!


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## wayneL (21 December 2008)

As ASXG has intimated, we probably need a lot more money than might be imagined, if we are to be totally self-reliant and not state-reliant in our dotage. Botox injections and plastic surgery can be jolly expensive.  (joke there)

When does the acquirement of wealth turn to greed? Good question, which I'm sure the answer will vary as much as there are people. 

It could be argued that whether intentional, or a a result of financial negligence, reliance on the state  is being greedy. Forcing the community to support you when you were capable of planning ahead, but didn't, you are essentially leeching off of later generations. Now in some cases, the state most certainly owes support to certain people, but I'm not talking about them. I'm also not referring to folks who are incapable of building up enough wealth for whatever valid reason.

So building up a nice pot could be more responsible than greedy.

There is also a trickle down effect with wealth. Rich people buy stuff, go places, build things, that require them to part with some of that money. Society needs rich people.

If a person is generous with their wealth, Godspeed to them in their endeavour, but I think that greed is probable more defined by how people use their money, rather than how much they acquire.

That's what I reckon.


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## MS+Tradesim (21 December 2008)

Cartman said:


> Y do YOU trade ??????




It's just as much fun as Battlefield 2 but instead of virtual ribbons and pretend ranks, I get money deposited in my bank (mostly).  But I still play BF2 to unwind.


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## Cartman (21 December 2008)

Gorilla ---  checked out that site and conclude i need to be more greedy otherwise im in trouble  !!
Wayne --- very insightful response as always
Naked Shorts  --- all i can say is i hope you wear undies!! :
MS ---- a battlefield it is

this thread will prob get shelved now cause its a sunday arvo kind of thread but thank you gentlemen for entering ------ the light ales have worn off now but the question still seems relevant so maybe others will add something through the week ----- now where is that goddamn bottle opener!!


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## MichaelD (22 December 2008)

I trade because I am fascinated by risk management, and trading is the purest expression of risk available anywhere.

A pleasant side effect of learning and practising/perfecting risk management is a rising equity curve.

That's not why I started trading, though. I started trading to make lots of money easily and quickly - the same as pretty much everyone's starting reasons I would have thought.


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## jersey10 (22 December 2008)

MichaelD said:


> I trade because I am fascinated by risk management.




Very interesting comment. I think i too am fascinated by risk management but i have no idea why. What fascinates you about risk management? You should try poker. Plenty of risk management there too. A rising equity curve is also possible once you become a decent poker player.


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## johenmo (23 December 2008)

The comment in a Garfield cartoon sums it up -"It's not the having, it's the getting".

We want to be able to do what my FIL has done for his grandkids - help them financially.  My eldest did an exchange to France fro 12 months in high school, and he paid for the exchange costs.  And it seems he has paid off her student loan.  She realises how lucky she has been.

This happened due to his shares and other investments ( he's glad he's diversified!).  It's only now that I have managed to get into the frame of mind where it seems right - I recognised that if I didn't have it right psychologically I would fail. Just didn't know why I knew it!

Many people, many reasons.


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## MichaelD (23 December 2008)

jersey10 said:


> What fascinates you about risk management?




I think it's the remarkable property of what happens when you take lots of small losses, and then along comes a big winner to make it all worthwhile - that to me is intrinsically fascinating even though it is simply the inevitable mathematics of expectancy.

I contrast this to the behaviour of the "it's a good company" crowd who are all howling in pain at the moment and am fascinated by the contrast.


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## Grinder (23 December 2008)

Lifestyle! I can do whatever I want whenever i want. Not to mention, it's heaps fun


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## tech/a (23 December 2008)

We all have our own beliefs.

These are mine.

Your life isnt a dress rehersal. YOU get one shot at it.
YOU can CHOOSE to exist or* LIVE* life.

Trading has been and remains one of the greatest learning experiences I have found in this lifetime.
*Michael* has hit one of the nails on the head. I share the same fascination with regard to risk but in ALL aspects of life.
*Wayne* has also hit another nail on the head---My insatiable appetite for growth has found me in a position where I can and do influence the life of people involved in business/LIFE around me---for the positive---a very satisfying part of living.
*ASX* has posted a calculator which will perhaps shock many---financial security is further off than many imagine.

Ive personally chosen NOT to take the easiest road and trading is a part of that. A part incidentally which has shown me more about myself than any other endeavor. The lessons learnt have helped me in ALL aspects of life---- Very satisfying.


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## Chorlton (23 December 2008)

Cartman said:


> Ok serious question here
> 
> its sunday arvo and ive had a cupla light ales; and the creative question juices are flowing
> 
> ...




In no particular order:

1. I like the challenge of trying to extract consistant profits from the Mrkts. 
2. I find the Mrks in general a fascinating subject so from that sense it is like a hobby (although I try to treat it like a business)
3. It keeps my brain active !!!!
4. Once the "skills" of successful trading are learnt, all I then need is some capital, a pc and a internet connection. This means that I should be able to trade throughout my life and well into retirement and hopefully offer me a reasonable and regular income.


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## Trembling Hand (23 December 2008)

Why?



FEAR


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## Sean K (23 December 2008)

Like:

1. Freedom to live anywhere I want.
2. Challenge.
3. Total responsibility for my own actions and result, less black swans.
4. Sitting around all day in boxer shorts and a bonds singlet.
5. Bar opens early. 


Don't like:

1. Lack of people contact, hence the time I spend here.
2. Tendancies to be too materialistic.
3. Friends outside the market thinking I'm materialistic.
4. Black swans. 
5. Lessons unlearnt.
6. Tax.
7. Bar closing too late.


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## kam75 (23 December 2008)

I trade because I enjoy playing the game.


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## wildkactus (23 December 2008)

Mobility, it gives me freedom to move around (live anywhere) while still having an income. 
Also I have always had a fasination with the markets, the way they work, the people, the flow of money. 

this is only part of my income stream but they all have one thing in comon mobility.


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## 1080p (23 December 2008)

I've always been fascinated with the markets, even as a kid so that's why I started.

I continue to trade because I believe I'm better at it than most.


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## MRC & Co (23 December 2008)

tech/a said:


> A part incidentally which has shown me more about myself than any other endeavor. The lessons learnt have helped me in ALL aspects of life




Interesting tech.  

What has trading shown you about yourself and how has that helped in other aspects of your life?

Kennas, bar opens early and bar closes too late, ha ha ha ha ha, classic!!!!

1080p I'm surprised more didn't just start because of the fascination with it.  It's the ONLY reason I started, the money aspect wasn't even on my radar.


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## tech/a (23 December 2008)

> What has trading shown you about yourself and how has that helped in other aspects of your life?




In brief (Without too much explanation).
These were the areas of improvement in my personal skills my journey in trading has shown me.

(1) Increase organisational skills
(2) Increase analytical skills
(3) Identification and quantification of risk.
(4) Adaptation.
(5) Thinking in multiples of R/R in everything. EG forget wife's birthday Risk far outweighs reward!
(6) Understanding HOW to set a strategy up for profit.
(7) The true value of the Pareto Principle (80/20 rule.)
(8) Time frames. If it matters today will it matter tomorrow or in a year.
Somethings do somethings don't. Take note of those things that do matter in longer time frames. Every time frame has its place and cause and effect. Don't sweat the small stuff.
(9) Knowing when to hold and when to fold.
(10) Decisive decision making.


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## Sean K (23 December 2008)

tech/a said:


> In brief (Without too much explanation).
> These were the areas of improvement in my personal skills my journey in trading has shown me.
> 
> (1) Increase organisational skills
> ...



You should have joined the Army and went to Duntroon tech. You learn all that in 18 months...

Not sure about the RR and wifes birthday present. More to do with capturing and killing the enemy...


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## Naked shorts (23 December 2008)

kennas said:


> 3. Friends outside the market thinking I'm materialistic.



This is a problem for me to. Its hard for me to get along with new people who are not in the business



kennas said:


> 4. Black swans.



These are what keeps things interesting kennas :


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## Trembling Hand (23 December 2008)

Naked shorts said:


> Its hard for me to get along with new people who are not in the business



Why  What does it matter what someone does during the working hours or even why would anyone want to surround yourself with the same people you work with. Career doesn't make the whole person, and if it does they are likely to be shallow and boring as all hell.


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## prawn_86 (23 December 2008)

I trade/invest for the challenge.

So far it is the only thing i have not been able to become relatively good/above average at in a short period of time. Most other things challenge me for a little, but then i find it easy/normal after a short time period (sports excepted, hence why i also play sports).

Perhaps i just get bored easily... but the market is so dynamic it's never boring.


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## MRC & Co (23 December 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Perhaps i just get bored easily... but the market is so dynamic it's never boring.




Yeh, I think this is the same for me, the markets provide a constant source of information and challenge.  If I am not stimulating my brain somehow, I go insane from boredom!


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## chops_a_must (23 December 2008)

I love probability theory. Markets are the most obvious expressions of such - even with the most incorrect expressions of it present.


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## Naked shorts (23 December 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Why  What does it matter what someone does during the working hours or even why would anyone want to surround yourself with the same people you work with. Career doesn't make the whole person, and if it does they are likely to be shallow and boring as all hell.




TH you are right, its just there are lots of misconceptions out there about what "market people" do. After some time, it can get rather annoying dealing with it. I'm rather young aswell so i get a few people trying to tell me what i should do with my life like I'm some kind of idiot (it normally always includes some kind of boring, "get a degree, get a job, get a wife, get some kids, dable in the stock market ala warrenbuffet, buy a house and become a RE tycoooon, retire, see the world, die").

Like tech said:
"YOU can CHOOSE to exist or LIVE life."

I would much rather take the path less taken, but in meeting the working class, they try to convince me that what they have done in life is best (In my view they are just trying to convince themselves).


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## MRC & Co (23 December 2008)

ha ha, yeh, I had mates called me a bum and a hermit when I quit work to trade and immerse myself in the markets.

It's why I loved the saying as my signature when I saw it.  My life, I will die it, so I may as well live it myself.  

Don't regret a thing.  

Think walking around the City every single day, how lucky I am to actually enjoy what I do every single day of my life.  Even now when I'm on holidays, it's a good feeling knowing when that ends, that I'm simply going back to something I love, not 'work' per se.  

Do what you want Shorts, I don't care much for opinions, and neither should you.  It's your life, if you trade and fail spectacularly in the end, so what?  What a life you would have lived!


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## weird (23 December 2008)

To be profitable - that's it in a nutshell.

The game factor is cool - but I can think of other stuff I would rather be doing.


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## theasxgorilla (24 December 2008)

tech/a said:


> (7) The true value of the Pareto Principle (80/20 rule.)




Ah indeed.  80% of your profits come from 20% of your winners but you still need to partake in the other 80% of trades or else it don't pay.


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