# What constitutes a fair wage?



## nioka (20 April 2008)

What does constitute a fair wage in the year 2008. In a discussion yesterday with a neice of mine the subject of a fair wage was raised. Her daughter who has just turned 16 worked during school holidays at an office doing what she described as some work with computer records. She was paid $800 for the week. She declined to do another week for the business because she said the work was boring.
 To me that seems to be a very high wage for a 16yr old with no experience apart from being able to use a computer. 
 I'm also amazed at the payments that company executives demand these days. They seem to be out of proportion to their effort and the results they obtain. In the past I have held managemant positions and directorships with some reasonably big companies and while I considered myself well paid in comparison to the general workers I would never have expected the rates I see these days.
 Am I out of touch completely or is there one section of the community much underpaid and another completely out of control.


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## prawn_86 (20 April 2008)

*Re: What constitutes a fair wage.*

$800 does seem fairly high for a high school student.

Personally I will not work for less that $15/hr, however I am receiving over $20 at my current casual position, which is now while im at uni. Obviously that will increase once I graduate.

Re: Exec salaries, I dont care how much they get paid, providing they create value. My biggest issue is the fact that the 'performance' hurdles they face are virtually non existant. Make harder targets to make them work harder...


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## reece55 (20 April 2008)

*Re: What constitutes a fair wage.*



prawn_86 said:


> $800 does seem fairly high for a high school student.
> 
> Personally I will not work for less that $15/hr, however i am recieving over $20 at my current casual position, which is now while im at uni. Obviously that will increase once i graduate.
> 
> Re: Exec salaries, I dont care how much they get paid, providing they create value. My biggest issue is the fact that the 'performance' hurdles they face are virtually non existant. Make harder targets to make them work harder...




I agree, $800 a week is a lot of cash to get per week...... However, with any salary, I think it depends on the cost of living where you are situated. For example, I'm in SA and after visiting Sydney a few times, I can safely say that Sydney residents need to get paid a fair bit more to me - it's damn right expensive to live there!

I would also concur with the executive stance taken by Prawnster - I don't care about the level of payment if it is commensurate with performance. The issue, as prawn points out, is that often the benchmark is too low. Or, as is pretty obvious from US banker salaries in the last couple of years, based on false valuations...

For listed entities, I favour a high proportion of at risk salary, with a majority long term incentive preferably made up of stock purchased in the company held in trust for the director concerned. The options that were issued to directors in exploration entities in the last 3 years has been an absolute disgrace.....

Cheers


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## golfmos123 (20 April 2008)

Nioka,

Sounds like a classic Gen Y type thing.  Want the money, but don't want to work too hard, and don't want to be inconvenienced while earning it.

Have one at work under me (along with a number of Gen X and baby boomers) and the difference in thinking is quite unbelievable.  Could be a new thread all on its own.  Don't know how many others out there see it too but it can be summarised as follows...(at risk of offending the youngsters out there)

* work ethic not too high - this has alienated others quite quickly
* excuses for almost everything that isn't delivered on time or at required quality
* usually refuses to take responsibility for individual actions

I could probably go on, but am feeling old and spiteful all of a sudden......


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## xoa (21 April 2008)

golfmos123 said:


> Nioka,
> 
> Sounds like a classic Gen Y type thing.  Want the money, but don't want to work too hard, and don't want to be inconvenienced while earning it.
> 
> ...




In the workplaces I've seen, it's the inverse. The people barely out of uni are working through the night and on weekends, volunteer to be on-call, while the older employees refuse to work outside the regular 9-5. The young people are hungrier for success, often cash in their sick leave and holidays, interact better with people from other departments, and have an eye for working overseas... The oldies just want to finish the working day and put their feet up.


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## reece55 (21 April 2008)

xoa said:


> In the workplaces I've seen, it's the inverse. The people barely out of uni are working through the night and on weekends, volunteer to be on-call, while the older employees refuse to work outside the regular 9-5. The young people are hungrier for success, often cash in their sick leave and holidays, interact better with people from other departments, and have an eye for working overseas... The oldies just want to finish the working day and put their feet up.




I personally think it's a mixed bag in both respects - I have the broad spectrum at my work, plenty of young people wanting to put in hard and vice versa. Same goes for those above 30.

As for the complaints from GenX and Baby Boomers about we GenY's, I say this is just the evolution of the work force. There is always the complaint that we don't have the same work ethic (i.e. not happy to stay in the same job for 40 years, etc.).... The reality is that workplaces these days are showing employees that they too don't have ethics, because regardless of how dedicated you are, my view is that employers these days see employees just like their plant and equipment - they pay for a service and if they don't want it, they can turf it whenever they want. As for the complaints we want too much money for too little service, well I think that is debatable, especially considering the salaries that I have seen dished out to older employees who can't use a single piece of software on a computer! That said, experience has no substitute and I personally thrive on learning from those who have done it all before -  after all, life is one big learning experience in the end. I think as usual, the employment marketplace is fairly efficient, it normally awards remuneration in the right way......

Cheers


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## freddy2 (21 April 2008)

No such thing as a "fair" wage - is it fair that teachers earn $50K a year while Barry Hall earns 10 times that much? It's all supply and demand, which while not perfect is probably the best way to determine wages.


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## tigerboi (21 April 2008)

wow $800 for a 16 year old,that is top dollar...cant see how there could be any complaints,my 17 year old is in year 12 & works part time casual at woolies for the experience & the dollars,she has her heart set on being a copper,i said to her long time ago...work to your strengths which for her is computers,just brilliant at them...

The problem with the youngsters these days is they want to get top dollar right away without starting at the bottom then working your way up,i see it in my industry of transport,which thankfully has some age requirements by the insurance companies to drive a certain vehicle,however the workplace is very different to when i got my first job back in 1980...tb


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## imajica (21 April 2008)

freddy2 said:


> No such thing as a "fair" wage - is it fair that teachers earn $50K a year while Barry Hall earns 10 times that much? It's all supply and demand, which while not perfect is probably the best way to determine wages.




I have been working as a teacher for 10 years and agree that we are seriously underpaid for the work we do. However if you are willing to work hard (ie-during the day at school + coaching in the evenings) you can make well over 100k


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## tigerboi (21 April 2008)

imajica said:


> I have been working as a teacher for 10 years and agree that we are seriously underpaid for the work we do. However if you are willing to work hard (ie-during the day at school + coaching in the evenings) you can make well over 100k




I will say this much about some teachers,they are getting paid too much for the absolute dribble they teach my girls,the everyone wins a prize system where you cant fail anyone is in fact doing the opposite,as in the real world if you cant add up or spell you are useless,i myself have to correct the teachers markings for mistakes...

The system has been infected with PC nonsense,social engineering half wits running the show with the latest rubbish of taking orders from a gay minority group wanting gender neutral nonsense!!! wtf who is this mob???
how about getting back to real proper teaching,anyway i hope you pull yourself a good wage amongst the numbskulls trying to experiment on our kids....tb


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## xoa (21 April 2008)

tigerboi said:


> the workplace is very different to when i got my first job back in 1980...tb




You're right. Now, there's HECS and HELP debt, "mutual obligation", AWAs, hyperinflated house prices...


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## metric (21 April 2008)

good question.

before any wage earner answers this question, he or she should read "rich dad poor dad". if youve read it, you will understand what i mean. 

work is great exercise, but poor value.


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## imajica (21 April 2008)

tigerboi said:


> I will say this much about some teachers,they are getting paid too much for the absolute dribble they teach my girls,the everyone wins a prize system where you cant fail anyone is in fact doing the opposite,as in the real world if you cant add up or spell you are useless,i myself have to correct the teachers markings for mistakes...
> 
> The system has been infected with PC nonsense,social engineering half wits running the show with the latest rubbish of taking orders from a gay minority group wanting gender neutral nonsense!!! wtf who is this mob???
> how about getting back to real proper teaching,anyway i hope you pull yourself a good wage amongst the numbskulls trying to experiment on our kids....tb





I would have to agree with you regarding the overall consistency of education provided within the public system. I have known many teachers who fail to adequately teach the basics of mathematics, writing and text types and English. In many cases the structure and method of old has been replaced with airy fairy crap. I personally teach on the basis of the old fundamental philosophy that students need structure, routine, academic discipline and a teacher/role model who knows the curriculum inside and out.


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## nioka (21 April 2008)

xoa said:


> You're right. Now, there's HECS and HELP debt, "mutual obligation", AWAs, hyperinflated house prices...



 A 16yr old, still at high school and living at home has none of those. Do they need or deserve $800 per week.


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## prawn_86 (21 April 2008)

nioka said:


> A 16yr old, still at high school and living at home has none of those. Do they need or deserve $800 per week.




If they were doing the same job as someone else who would get paid $10 a week, then yes.

That is why i always refused to work for companies that were not equal opportunity employers.

Why should I, when i was 18, do just as much work as a 25yo and get paid 30% less? Retail and fast food industry thrive on this fact however...


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## doctorj (21 April 2008)

I think everyone's missing the point. It's very easy to sit back and say that $800 is too much, but the reality is someone was willing to pay that.

Now, if I can find a 16yo or a 46yo that brings enough into a business that I can justify paying them $800pw I'll happily pay it. Similarly if they generate much more value than that, I don't see why I wouldn't pay them more.

The reality is how old they are is irrelevant. It's just another form of discrimination. People should be paid based on the value they generate.

For example, I know of a 22yo who's not yet finished their degree with about 8 months experience in their line of work who is on track to earn over $350k in his first 12 months. Is he worth it? In truth, he's probably worth much more than that - he's generated over $2m in new business for his company and in a field they weren't previously involved in....

It comes back to the old adage - price is what you pay, but value is what you receive.


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## ithatheekret (21 April 2008)

doctorj said:


> It comes back to the old adage - price is what you pay, but value is what you receive.




Here's one for that test .

A doctor studies for years on end , then he starts a practice , employs a receptionist and an office manager . Next he gets a waiting room full of bulk billing patients . He averages 4 patients and hour to achieve $120 per hour , by the end of the year he/she is near broke as his bulk billing practice is not enough to cover wages and insurance .

I don't think the doctor would be impressed by the adage , because due to the patients price , he/she is the one that has paid the price , for the value he/she has put out in service .


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## Trembling Hand (21 April 2008)

Thats why doctors always over book. They squeeze in plenty more than 4 an hour!


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## doctorj (21 April 2008)

ithatheekret said:


> I don't think the doctor would be impressed by the adage , because due to the patients price , he/she is the one that has paid the price , for the value he/she has put out in service .



In fact, that's the perfect example - price and value are different things. As an employer you should employ where there is value.

In the example you sight, you highlight the inefficiencies of govt interference in markets. Soon there won't be any bulk billing doctors. If experienced accountants and lawyers charge $700-1000/hr, the idea that the government gives bulk billing doctors $100/hr is insane.


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## treefrog (21 April 2008)

tigerboi said:


> I will say this much about some teachers,they are getting paid too much for the absolute dribble they teach my girls,the everyone wins a prize system where you cant fail anyone is in fact doing the opposite,as in the real world if you cant add up or spell you are useless,i myself have to correct the teachers markings for mistakes...
> 
> The system has been infected with PC nonsense,social engineering half wits running the show with the latest rubbish of taking orders from a gay minority group wanting gender neutral nonsense!!! wtf who is this mob???
> how about getting back to real proper teaching,anyway i hope you pull yourself a good wage amongst the numbskulls trying to experiment on our kids....tb




read your post tiger and couldn't help thinking of the observations attributed to bill gates;


> A speech by Bill Gates to high school students on how politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world and postulated the following 11 rules of life:
> Rule 1:  Life is not fair - get used to it!
> Rule 2:  The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.
> Rule 3:  You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.
> ...


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## Timmy (21 April 2008)

What if the 16-year old saved up $5000, pestered her parents to open up a CFD account then earnt $800 in a week trading, would that be ok?


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## nioka (21 April 2008)

Timmy said:


> What if the 16-year old saved up $5000, pestered her parents to open up a CFD account then earnt $800 in a week trading, would that be ok?



I guess it would be OK as it would be a B&$#@@y miracle.


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## njc.corp (21 April 2008)

doctorj said:


> I think everyone's missing the point. It's very easy to sit back and say that $800 is too much, but the reality is someone was willing to pay that.
> 
> Now, if I can find a 16yo or a 46yo that brings enough into a business that I can justify paying them $800pw I'll happily pay it. Similarly if they generate much more value than that, I don't see why I wouldn't pay them more.
> 
> ...




correct-

a fair wage-

like my old worker- he was prepared to go the distance-

i had  over 25 workers come and go-all saying  its to hard- he just said when u finish  i will to

he was getting paid $1000.00 a week- take home- and not only could he do -3 things at once-he could be trusted-

he was also making me between 3-5 times what i was paying him a week-he was very freindly and the customers could related to him-

he never took a day off- in 5 years- 2 days off in 5 years for a fever-if i had to start at 5 am he would to etc etc

my point is if they want to work they will-u will know who does not-

i have noticed from other sectors-that the under paid workers  rip off their bosse's  7/10 times-

so if u feel u have a good worker look after them-


Nick--


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## Smurf1976 (21 April 2008)

golfmos123 said:


> * work ethic not too high - this has alienated others quite quickly
> * excuses for almost everything that isn't delivered on time or at required quality
> * usually refuses to take responsibility for individual actions
> 
> I could probably go on, but am feeling old and spiteful all of a sudden......



We have a few Gen Y's at work. Main difference I've noted is they want everything NOW and just don't get the concept of having a long term plan and actually sticking to it. Also they have an outright obsession with mobile phones.

Other than that though I'd have to say that their incredible ability to get things done, which is absolutely tops, more than makes up for any downsides. 

Overall I'd rate them higher than the rest. Quite a bit higher in fact. Harder to deal with in many ways but the good points more than make up for that. Only thing is it did take me a while to get used to the phone thing. Text, text, text...


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## trishan9390 (23 April 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> We have a few Gen Y's at work. Main difference I've noted is they want everything NOW and just don't get the concept of having a long term plan and actually sticking to it. Also they have an outright obsession with mobile phones.
> 
> Other than that though I'd have to say that their incredible ability to get things done, which is absolutely tops, more than makes up for any downsides.
> 
> Overall I'd rate them higher than the rest. Quite a bit higher in fact. Harder to deal with in many ways but the good points more than make up for that. Only thing is it did take me a while to get used to the phone thing. Text, text, text...




I'm a Gen Y and I agree. I reckon because of technological improvements as well as more accessible information sources students these days are asked to get through a greater amount of work in a shorter time period than in the past.

Before all you oldies start going on about walking to school barefoot, uphill both ways, I actually have had this discussion with older folk and they seem to agree with this point. How many of you notice this with your kids?

So anyway we come out of the academic system with the ability to utlise technology and information sources much more effectively than the generation before us which would explain our ability to get things done.

I am sure a lot of you think that's hogwash.


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## nioka (23 April 2008)

trishan9390;28599So anyway we come out of the academic system with the ability to utlise technology and information sources much more effectively than the generation before us which would explain our ability to get things done.
.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> The ability, definitely, but from my experience, not the work ethic to stick out the "boring" part of any real job. Proved to me by the case I mention where a 16yr old refused a second week at $800 because the job was boring.


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## vishalt (23 April 2008)

golfmos123 said:


> Nioka,
> 
> Sounds like a classic Gen Y type thing.  Want the money, but don't want to work too hard, and don't want to be inconvenienced while earning it.
> 
> ...



You are stereotyping all of Gen Y on the basis of one employee? Are you serious? 

At my workplace we have Gen Y's and Gen X's who work in perfect harmony as the bosses keep us happy and reward us for the hard work and the extra time and effort we put in, and we put in an exceptional amount of work.

We take great pride in our work too, are very passionate and do the best to get the best articles for our publication (I'm a journalist).

If you just told me how you feel in a work place, and I was your employee, I would abandon you at the drop of a hat and at the most critical moment and laugh on the way out especially because of how arrogant you sound on your theory which is based on just ONE person.

DON'T class or streotype us, or me anyway, not all Gen Y's are the same, same with X's.


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## nioka (23 April 2008)

vishalt said:


> You are stereotyping all of Gen Y on the basis of one employee? Are you serious?



 I have quoted one example, more to draw attention to the wage. I could quote many other examples, some from my extended family and some from the children and grand children of my neighbours. The attitude of " I'm educated so the world owes me instant recognition" prevails.


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## vishalt (23 April 2008)

nioka said:


> I have quoted one example, more to draw attention to the wage. I could quote many other examples, some from my extended family and some from the children and grand children of my neighbours. The attitude of " I'm educated so the world owes me instant recognition" prevails.



Oh really? Clarify first, please.


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## Plasmo (23 April 2008)

> I have quoted one example, more to draw attention to the wage. I could quote many other examples, some from my extended family and some from the children and grand children of my neighbours. The attitude of " I'm educated so the world owes me instant recognition" prevails.




That's an ignorant stereotype and says more about you than it does about the people you're complaining about.  It's just as factual to say all people your age drive around in combi vans wearing rainbow coloured shirts, smoking weed and waiting for their welfare handout.

To get away from this stupidity and back to the original post, there's no such thing as a "fair wage" any more than there is a "fair price for corn chips shaped like Kevin Rudd", there is only the market price, and trying to apply a moral judgement to it is an excercise in futility.


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## vishalt (23 April 2008)

Plasmo said:


> To get away from this stupidity and back to the original post, there's no such thing as a "fair wage" any more than there is a "fair price for corn chips shaped like Kevin Rudd", there is only the market price, and trying to apply a moral judgement to it is an excercise in futility.



I guess thats the truth, although I was interested in the earlier arguments about executives getting overpaid while the underlings or mid-tier people get paid substantially less. 

A fair wage to me is something that would let me pay for the rent, food, laundry, groceries, utility bills while providing me with enough cash to have a good time with friends (dinner, bowling, movies, whatever) while not worry too much about money and enough for some savings. 

Oops thats asking for too much already!


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## nioka (23 April 2008)

Plasmo said:


> That's an ignorant stereotype and says more about you than it does about the people you're complaining about.  It's just as factual to say all people your age drive around in combi vans wearing rainbow coloured shirts, smoking weed and waiting for their welfare handout.
> .



Komki vans and rainbow shirts came a generation after me. Had they not been doing what they did and lived like they have they may not be finding it so hard to manage now. I'm sure, with the passage of time teaching them a better way, that most of them have come around to a different way of thinking.
Remember my age group has been young and foolish, the young have yet to walk in our footsteps.


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## Plasmo (23 April 2008)

I feel the same way about top executives, but can't logically justify it. 

They command such high prices because they're scarce, and they're scarce because they have enough money to comfortably retire.   It takes a lot of money to draw most people with millions in the bank, nice houses and boats and golf club memberships out into the world of business, but they're the people wanted for CEO level roles generally.



> Remember my age group has been young and foolish




Until one day you matured, and learned to do the responsible thing by taking heavily leveraged speculative positions on the  real estate bubble.  How wise, I'm certain we can all learn a valuable lesson from this example of prudent financial planning.


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## vishalt (23 April 2008)

Plasmo said:


> I feel the same way about top executives, but can't logically justify it.
> 
> They command such high prices because they're scarce, and they're scarce because they have enough money to comfortably retire.   It takes a lot of money to draw most people with millions in the bank, nice houses and boats and golf club memberships out into the world of business, but they're the people wanted for CEO level roles generally.
> 
> ...



Funny thing is though all of my age group is stereotyped, mostly thanks to brainwashing by the wonderful news.com.au and the mX with their agendas on Gen Y's. 

Its funny how my group of friends, atleast 9 out of the 10 of us all plan to be loyal to our workplaces for atleast 3 to 4 years, we don't have credit cards and blow massive amounts in shopping, we save immense amounts of money and seek long-term wealth management capabilities.


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## Julia (23 April 2008)

Plasmo said:


> ..... there's no such thing as a "fair wage" any more than there is a "fair price for corn chips shaped like Kevin Rudd", there is only the market price, and trying to apply a moral judgement to it is an excercise in futility.




This is really the whole point.  Comes down to supply and demand as with any other commodity.  We have almost full employment, so employees can command pretty much what they want.


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## vishalt (23 April 2008)

Julia said:


> This is really the whole point.  Comes down to supply and demand as with any other commodity.  We have almost full employment, so employees can command pretty much what they want.



Yeah and please don't whine about this Gen X's, take Bill Gates' lesson and just live with the fact that "that's life" and none of us care that you were born in a recession while we are enjoying 16 years of economic expansion with unlimited opportunities. 

But appreciate some of us won't change workplaces every 2 weeks to make our resumes look bad to prepare for a time when we do have an inevitable contraction.


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## nioka (23 April 2008)

Plasmo said:


> Until one day you matured, and learned to do the responsible thing by taking heavily leveraged speculative positions on the  real estate bubble.  How wise, I'm certain we can all learn a valuable lesson from this example of prudent financial planning.



 I believe that neither a borrower nor a lender be. I never take highly leveraged positions and a lot of those that have done have certainly come unstuck. When I did borrow I found that, on average, the only one to gain at the end of the deal was the bank. Then I learned to save and invest was the best way to go.
 I'm not against high wages but anyone expecting any wage should be prepared to give value for that wage. They should think "Would I like to pay someone else that amount of pay to do that job for me?"


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## Plasmo (24 April 2008)

> believe that neither a borrower nor a lender be. I never take highly leveraged positions




How can that be?  All people of your age are greedy imbeciles drowning in mortgages and credit card debt.


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## ithatheekret (24 April 2008)

doctorj said:


> In fact, that's the perfect example - price and value are different things. As an employer you should employ where there is value.
> 
> In the example you sight, you highlight the inefficiencies of govt interference in markets. Soon there won't be any bulk billing doctors. If experienced accountants and lawyers charge $700-1000/hr, the idea that the government gives bulk billing doctors $100/hr is insane.




Nope $100 per hour with 15m per patient . plus an extra $8 or $9 if it be a rural location , is insane , I can do nothing but agree there . 

Surgeons are leaving practises and going into public sustems , because patients can't afford the costs . Does the Govt. support them ? 

There will always be bulk billing doctors , I beg to differ there , but they might be locum service doctors , doing rounds at surgeries etc. 

Doctors are fighting back , but they are wearing the cost increases .

The solution could fall back to the medicare levy , which has been wasted in my opinion . Then again we are only seeing the excise on petrol start to be spent on roads . This little hold off has increased the medical costs and dragged the economy into a bottle neck . Great productivity drive they had there  .

If the solution is within the realms of the medicare levy , we can expect a rise on that too , but that would depend on whether the waste continues or not .

Waste eats into both price and value . Let a private medical system do as it likes , and that waste adds to the effect 100 fold , as they send up costs and cut back pay out ratios , that's business .  

Let it proceed unregulated and again that's insane . A Doctor is worth $440 an hour based on current CPI figures , they'd be lucky to get half that .


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## Plasmo (24 April 2008)

Subsidising medical care creates moral hazard by reducing the disincentive for healthy lifestyle.

Providing free healthcare creates disease.


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## Trembling Hand (24 April 2008)

Plasmo said:


> Subsidising medical care creates moral hazard by reducing the disincentive for healthy lifestyle.
> 
> Providing free healthcare creates disease.




Oh my god. What privileged bubble have you been growing in??

Cheap health care is preventative.


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## nioka (24 April 2008)

Plasmo said:


> How can that be?  All people of your age are greedy imbeciles drowning in mortgages and credit card debt.



 You forgot to add "and living it up on the pension, free handouts and charity"


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## Julia (24 April 2008)

Plasmo, what is it with you?  Do you have some internal problem which drives you to simply be antagonistic and unpleasant?   So bored you need to try to irritate people with your stirring?  I can't honestly believe you genuinely hold the bizarre opinions you've expressed.


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## Plasmo (24 April 2008)

I don't hold the opinion I express, I was illustrating the ignorance inherent in stereotyping groups of people.


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## nioka (25 April 2008)

Julia said:


> Plasmo, what is it with you?  Do you have some internal problem which drives you to simply be antagonistic and unpleasant?   So bored you need to try to irritate people with your stirring?  I can't honestly believe you genuinely hold the bizarre opinions you've expressed.




 Discount what he says. After he/she has been on this forum for more than a couple of weeks he/she may have something serious to add. In the meantime I've added it to the ignore list.


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