# Stop Immigration - I want to buy a house!



## Uncle Festivus (30 October 2007)

Various forums on various media have discussed how to tackle the housing affordability _crisis_, which is almost daily reaching new 'unaffordable' levels.

What is usually agreed is the factors which brought about the current situation - low interest rates, a commodities boom, and immigration.

But there comes a time when we as a nation have to ask ourselves whether we are actually better off, when we have to work just to survive, as opposed to live, due to the ever increasing _cost of living.

_While interest rates are rising, rents are rising also due to unprecedented demand for somewhere to live, all the while exacerbated by increasing immigration.

Has there been a proper review of whether our immigration levels are excessive, relative to the requirement for labour. Further unaccounted immigration will only put further pressure on the cost of living for those already trying to live in this country as they compete for scarce resources, in this case housing. 

Is immigration now past the point where it actively contributes to the general society or  does it now consume and compete forcing prices up for the incumbents ie the rest of us?

Until such time as the reasons why there is an housing shortfall are remedied, should we reduce immigration to a sustainable level?


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## KIWIKARLOS (30 October 2007)

i agree in principal but i think migrated labour is essential for oz perhapes we could have some restrictions on propoert ownership or something similar.
I know its not really feasable but for an example we could limit family member migration.

I used to live in a place called Eastwood and at about 1990-95 i would see foriegners driving down the streets with a video camera and then a couple months later 3 or 4 houses in a row were "sold" and entire families move into streets. 

I think its a 1st world phenomenon and there hasn't really been any thought put into the repocussions of anabated immigration but fact is you go to China, india  etc there are hardly any immigrants and in countries where there are alot like bangladesh and Saudi arabia they are mistreated or only there to work. 

I am a strong believer in helping others but if everyone runs away from a country in crises who's going to be left to fix it. Its tough but sometimes people have to fight to improve their own country. (this is going to open a can of worms, and i know that people are going to say that they can't do anything but rather than bringing in an immigrant to our country and straight onto welfare equip them with what they need to improve their own situation first at home.)


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## kgee (30 October 2007)

lets open up more land to be developed if we did this I could get a cheap bit of land put a caravan on it and the problems solved its not like there ain't a lot of land out there...or is this to simple?
As for immigration I'm from NZ...so..
As for remedying the housing shortage maybe...but I'd suggest it will cause an increase in skills shortage...not just now but in the future....I just started a diploma in engineering at Tafe out of 20 of us not one was born in Australia!!!


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## KIWIKARLOS (30 October 2007)

I dont think oz can open up much more land the only land left is either the little bit of enivoronment that isn't completely screwed or so isolated and uninhabitable that services to these areas are too expensive to install.

Look at the murray basin for example the whole river system is essentially dead from under water allocation and clearing once upon a time people could happiliy live along its banks in rural communites but soon there wont be anything left except for dust! I think its one of the biggest disgraces in oz.


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## cuttlefish (30 October 2007)

I'd blame negative gearing before anything else for the reason property prices are ridiculously high.  Introduce tax deductions on the family home mortgage (I think this is how it works in the US) and take away tax deductions for investors and you'd have a very different situation.  It might also encourage investors to get a little bit more creative in their investments and Australia could move ahead in developing genuine value add industries rather than relying on abundant natural resources.


The other factor for bigger city property prices is regulatory restrictions that slow down the DA process.  Its not as though Australia is short of land - regional areas in particular but even in inner city areas the opportunity for gentrification/increased densities is still abundant.  On paper, Australia must have more land per capita than most other countries in the world.


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## Rafa (30 October 2007)

this could be a generalisation but in Adelaide, the biggest influx of migrants has been from the UK... most of them sell up their 1bed house in the UK for about 300,000 pounds, and can buy any property they want here for cash and have money left over the live on...

but the fact is, with the underinvestment in skills and trades i the last many years... most of these people are coming here to fill job vacancies... i.e. they are not free loading, rather contributing from day dot...

the only problem is, when you a bidding against someone who paid 300,000 pounds for 80sqm of apartment, they are not going to think twice about paying 500,000 AUD for 700sqm of land!

you quickly realise how cheap land really is in Oz!


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## kgee (30 October 2007)

Raffa I don't like comparing ourselves with the UK . I wonder what the % of home ownership is over there? And seriously I think wer'e heading in the same direction...and with elections coming up don't you love how the parties skirt this issue?
I totally agree with cuttlefish on negative gearing...it's ridiculously shortsighted, but if they stop it now (which they should) and interest rates keep rising there's going to be a lot of people in a world of hurt out there what do you do?


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## Pommiegranite (30 October 2007)

Rafa said:


> this could be a generalisation but in Adelaide, the biggest influx of migrants has been from the UK... most of them sell up their 1bed house in the UK for about 300,000 pounds, and can buy any property they want here for cash and have money left over the live on...
> 
> but the fact is, with the underinvestment in skills and trades i the last many years... most of these people are coming here to fill job vacancies... i.e. they are not free loading, rather contributing from day dot...
> 
> ...





Damn right Rafa!

I don't blame immigration...I blame the blamers.

There's plenty to be had in this country founded by immigrants. The last thing we should be doing is pulling up the drawbridge becasue of our own inadequacies.

Instead we should be accepting that global migration is here to stay, and look at our own lives and plan for the future. 

Humans have always migrated for a better life and always will. Whether it be from the rural Oz to the cities, or from Africa to Australia, its natural and beneficial.

Going back to daydream Australia, drifting through the decades, is not an appealing option.


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## Kathmandu (30 October 2007)

Negative gearing is in place as an incentive for investors to purchase accomadation for those who choose to rent.

The Govt is not providing enough subsidised Accomadation if you havent noticed, and even if they were, do you really want to live in high rise housing commission ghettos?

I am still not sure if there is an affordability crisis at all.

I feel it is more of an aspirational crisis.

How many FHB's were buying new 4 bedroom brick and tile homes with 2 bathrooms, ducted a/c, granite benchtops and european s/s appliances 15 years ago?

Dave


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## petervan (30 October 2007)

Instead of trying to beat them you could join them as I hear there some cheap houses going off in the U.S.A .Great exchange rate to


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## chops_a_must (30 October 2007)

This problem can be quite clearly seen here in WA.

The majority of young people can't find anywhere to rent. Even if they have the money, people aren't willing to take a chance on them when every man and his dog is coming over from the east coast.

It's a recipe for a massive social disaster.


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## Kathmandu (30 October 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> This problem can be quite clearly seen here in WA.
> 
> The majority of young people can't find anywhere to rent. Even if they have the money, people aren't willing to take a chance on them when every man and his dog is coming over from the east coast.
> 
> It's a recipe for a massive social disaster.




By the east coast you mean Sydney?

QLD has it's own plague of southerners and West Australians at the moment coming over for our cheaper housing and driving prices up.

Dave


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## Rafa (30 October 2007)

Pommiegranite said:


> Damn right Rafa!
> 
> I don't blame immigration...I blame the blamers.
> 
> ...





The thing that gets me the most is people who go on about all this immigration when we have no water...

we have crap loads of water.... just some very poor infrastructure... Australia annually exports trillions of litres of water (in mean and grain exports) and wastes many more billion in poor infrastructure.


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## chops_a_must (30 October 2007)

Kathmandu said:


> By the east coast you mean Sydney?
> 
> QLD has it's own plague of southerners and West Australians at the moment coming over for our cheaper housing and driving prices up.
> 
> Dave




I think QLD is in a similar position to WA, although perhaps not as bad. It's just a joke to see people moving from WA purely because of affordability issues.


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## Happy (30 October 2007)

We should not worry too much about prices going up, if we didn’t have inflation they wouldn’t.


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## Spaghetti (30 October 2007)

Immigration is poorly handled imho. many skilled immigrants can only get work driving cabs because there seems to be a divide between what skilled labor the government provides via immigration as opposed to who business wants to employ. I am purely speculating here (so no t/a or f/a to back up my claim lol) but we may have to import say 3 migrants to one skilled job leaving 2 to unskilled labour jobs. Ashamed to say it but Australian employees do favour white or at least male and well spoken employees over people who may have the skills but do not look the part or do not have perfect english. If you are female, overweight, middleaged and foreign on top of it for eg wouldn't matter how highly skilled you are, you will probably end up filing clerk. So though the government may not discriminate on skill based migration, employees do.

I do not think people can really argue this point because it is obvious. Perhaps the degree it happens could be debated but we have to face up to the fact it does happen. Even older people like myself seem to have to accept lower wage and conditions just because we have a few gray hairs around the temple. It is poor for productivity not to fully realise the potential of human resources. We pay a lot for the education and training of employees and that is wasted if there skills are not fully exploited because they are not 28 white male.

I have noticed some government ads trying to change this bias but they show a lady serving coffee in a cafe, hardly what us oldies want. So many like myself should be in the workforce but choose not to be because we have been devalued all of a sudden and have the means to support ourselves with the boom in housing and of course the market


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## Kathmandu (30 October 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> I think QLD is in a similar position to WA, although perhaps not as bad. It's just a joke to see people moving from WA purely because of affordability issues.




Like I sad before, I don't believe the affordability issue.

I feel it is an Aspirational issue.

Heres some houses under $300k

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...header=&c=48186676&s=wa&snf=rbs&tm=1193724136

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...header=&c=48186676&s=wa&snf=rbs&tm=1193724136

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...header=&c=48186676&s=wa&snf=rbs&tm=1193724136

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...header=&c=48186676&s=wa&snf=rbs&tm=1193724136


Doing the search under $300k I found 20 pages of them

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...House,Terrace,Townhouse,Villa,Warehouse&o=def

What's wrong with them?

Dave


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## chops_a_must (30 October 2007)

Kathmandu said:


> What's wrong with them?
> 
> Dave



If you think the only affordability issue is the cost of homes, I'm not sure if you are opening your eyes very much.

In Perth at least, if you have a normal paying, close to minimum wage job (like most young people do), you can't afford to rent. That's pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.


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## Kathmandu (30 October 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> If you think the only affordability issue is the cost of homes, I'm not sure if you are opening your eyes very much.
> 
> In Perth at least, if you have a normal paying, close to minimum wage job (like most young people do), you can't afford to rent. That's pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.




RENTALS

How much closer to the CBD do you want?

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...header=&c=92124982&s=wa&snf=rbs&tm=1193725087

Again 20 pages under 300/week

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...rrace,Townhouse,Villa,Warehouse&m=&p=10&o=def

20 pages under 250/week

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...rrace,Townhouse,Villa,Warehouse&m=&p=10&o=def

I don't know, looks pretty affordable to me.

Dave


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## disarray (30 October 2007)

as long as "growth" is the primary objective of government policy immigration will be necessary. it is in the nature of business to expand, requiring more labour etc to keep it going - see gerry harvey bitching about the price of labour last week. he in turn sells crappy consumer goods to these workers to make profit and perpetuate the growth cycle.

"sustainability" should be the watchword but its not. its all about growth and bigger and better and more, because humans are a greedy species. society itself will need to shift attitudes regarding consumerism and ask itself "do i really need that 42" plasma?" before we can find a balance with our environment. as long as life is all about the $$$ to buy the lifestyle we'll need growth which will need immigration.

theres plenty of usable land out there only it has been misused for generations and so is undesirable. a big investment in infrastructure as well as a shift by business and society to stop pissing all the water away can recreate dying communities and reversing the flow of people to the major cities. rent and land can get much much more expensive judging by new york, london and tokyo prices and as australia gets richer from our short term minerals boom people will pay.


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## chops_a_must (30 October 2007)

Kathmandu said:


> RENTALS
> 
> How much closer to the CBD do you want?
> 
> ...




Redcliffe is not close to the CBD. And most of those listed are well out of the metro area.

When most people under 25 aren't clearing more than 550 or 600 a week, 300 a week in rent in the burbs is a massive wack.


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## moXJO (30 October 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Redcliffe is not close to the CBD. And most of those listed are well out of the metro area.
> 
> When most people under 25 aren't clearing more than 550 or 600 a week, 300 a week in rent in the burbs is a massive wack.




I noticed the massive rents being paid in Brisbane as well. Even the burbs which were a long way out from the cbd were pricey.Every year I think some things gotta give but still waiting.


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## Kathmandu (30 October 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Redcliffe is not close to the CBD. And most of those listed are well out of the metro area..




Redcliffe only looks like about 10klm to the CBD, thats close.



> When most people under 25 aren't clearing more than 550 or 600 a week, 300 a week in rent in the burbs is a massive wack




Massive wack, doubt it.

Maybe it is if you are paying of a $30,000 car and buying toys.

So if they are by themselves move in with a mate.

If they have a partner theres 2 incomes.

Rent one of the cheaper ones.

This issue isnt anything new, as an apprentice in mid 80's I rented with up to 4 other guys and even then paid out one third of my income.

When I moved in with my GF, I paid ALL of my income in rent and lived off of her wage, that was in 84

In 1994 I was renting a unit for $180.week and earning about $350/week.

Whats new?

Dave


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## marklar (30 October 2007)

Australia is currently running at a fertility rate (1.7 something) which is below replacement level (2.1), we need immigration to continue to grow the population.  

The ageing population cannot continue to meet the demands of the labour market.

m.


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## kgee (30 October 2007)

yeah but house prices are more expensive you still need 10% deposit for a house if your making between 25- 35000 a year how do you get a deposit together without going to your folks?


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## Kathmandu (30 October 2007)

kgee said:


> yeah but house prices are more expensive you still need 10% deposit for a house if your making between 25- 35000 a year how do you get a deposit together without going to your folks?




Probably the same way I had to scratch 20% together get a loan when you actually needed money to get a house.

Sacrifice and save (folks would have said F off)

Buy a crappy house 20 klm out of town

Dave


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## ceegee (30 October 2007)

I absolutly agree kat. People have to decide if they want to have the latest mobile and a nice car, go out on the weekends etc...

I get sick of people whingeing about affordabilitly, availabilty. My husaband and i bought our house when he was earning minimal wage I was home with two small children and the interest rates were 18%!!! 
We didn't have a phone while we were renting and saving for a mortgage and I was pregnant. 

I see it with my childrens friends, they're mid 20"s now, they expect to have everything AND buy a house in a trendy suburb...Sorry... unless their parents help its not going to happen! 

Why do people feel they are owed everything? 

Just my thoughts C


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## kgee (30 October 2007)

disagree i just think for some kids theyr'e just going to get priced out of the market...time will tell I spose


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## Mofra (30 October 2007)

Well, we've covered a range of stereotypes here haven't we?

"Immigrants are the problem"
"All young people are bludgers"
"Youngsters don't save their money"
"It was tougher in my day"

Funny thing is many of the self-righteous set who constantly put down people trying to buy a home (or anyone who actually presents evidence to suggest proportionality of income required to service median debt, but lets ignore facts to continue the trend of this thread) make 10 times the noise first home buyers do.


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## KIWIKARLOS (30 October 2007)

i just turned 25 and this talk of rents been 300 dollars and pays around 550-600 may be true but fact is if a single person on a single income is going to move into a house by themselves we should discourage this. What ever happen to shared living, i lived with 3 other people in a share house for a couple years we could all afford that and its much better environmentally.


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## Uncle Festivus (30 October 2007)

The other angle I was alluding to was if we are importing people (both from o/s and interstate?) to help with the commodity boom based economy, when do we determine that the rewards do not outweigh the negatives. When do we say 'these people are coming in to work here, but at the same time create competition for goods & services, to the extent that we are NOT better off'?

Is the commodities boom really good for the _average_ Australian? Unless you are about to retire soon, you may have a wait before you can see the benefits of the share market bull show up in superannuation etc.

While there is certainly a certain amount of whining from gen y wanting everything now, the fact remains that it is both getting harder to buy a house (without parents help etc) or pay the rent if renting.

Can we blame human imports/transfers for cost of living inflation?


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## professor_frink (30 October 2007)

evening folks,

I've deleted a post or 20 here. If you want to rip into each other do it privately.

Any further posts relating to what was just removed will be deleted.

Have a nice night


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## Shane Baker (30 October 2007)

Uncle Festivus said:


> Can we blame human imports/transfers for cost of living inflation?




Is it the growth in immigration or the growth in money supply that causes inflation


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## roland (30 October 2007)

Hi, I think starting a forum with a light-hearted Australian style cause and effect heading has opened an unintentional "can of worms" regarding peoples views on immigration. Unless you are Aboriginal, I guess you are an immigrant in one sense....

Get over it ASF people, I think most here would agree that racism and intolerance have no place here. Racist comments and the associated retorts are obviously not well taken by people who are sensitive - it is also not very pleasant reading the posts - thanks.

Re: Housing affordability. I think we all have it in ourselves to get some property, but it's like anything we desire in life, it has to be within the realms of our own individual resources and circumstances.

We all have our own stories, some have had it worse than others. I would like to think that this forum is more to do with assisting in wealth creation and sharing the knowledge for the benfit of all.

Firstly, I don't have a house or property but understand the path to get there. I run a small computer business which barely makes a profit, my wife of 4 years came from overseas and had nothing to her name. Both our fathers died at an early age, so we can expect no help from family. So I think we are on the same footing, or at least close to, the footing of many others here without a house.

So, how am I getting there????

#1. No debt. Debt is the worst thing inhibiting your goal. Credit cards on average cost you around 12%, some are as high as 20% - my figures are probably inaccurate, but the point is - if you cannot afford to pay cash for whatever it is, then you can't afford it - don't buy it! I am excluding your house here, since this the goal.

#2. Excessive expenses. Should be obvious ... mobile phones, I've seen people at my local post office paying mobile phone bills in front of me in the queue of thousands of dollars! How can that be??? My mobile bill is $11 per month

#3. Live below your means. Again obvious, if you earn $2,000 per month, how sustainable would be spending $2,500 per month?

#4. Have a strategy for securing your savings from #3, both long term compounding, and if you have the expertise, some shorter term speculative returns to feed into your compounding savings.

The above is obvious for most people bothered to read my post. A dollar spent today would be $2 in 3 years at 20% compounded (mm, could be 5 years), the point is that if you hold off spending now you could then spend your dollar and still have the extra dollar to re-invest 

Like most things we value, someone else probably values it as well, just like shares. Property like shares has competitors, if you get in early then it is cheaper, as the attraction increases then the value and the our entry price increases. Property is really not a lot different to shares - just the unit price is higher 

I would love to have 1,000 RIO shares, but I can't afford them, so I buy 1,000 of something I can afford - I don't get all mad about it, I work within my means. With the profit of my 1,000 of something else, I'll get 100 RIO shares - only 900 to go. Then the whole process starts again.


The longer the post, the more off track one gets


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## Buster (30 October 2007)

Hey Kat,



Kathmandu said:


> Probably the same way I had to scratch 20% together get a loan when you actually needed money to get a house.
> 
> Sacrifice and save (folks would have said F off)
> 
> Buy a crappy house 20 klm out of town




Give it up buddy, some people just don't get it..  I, however, am in total agreeance with all that you've posted.. I guess we probably grew up in similar times.. 

It seems that there are many playing the 'unaffordable' card.. I'm tipping they are the ones that have the most to gain.. 

Incidentally, Negative gearing.. to those complaining about not having anywhere to rent and on the flip side blaming negative gearing is absolutely bizarre to me.. those who can't or won't afford a home have only those investing in bricks and mortar to thank for the roof over thier head..

Crazy times, it's all about ME ME ME..

Regards,

Buster


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## numbercruncher (30 October 2007)

I suspect that huge amounts of Super money looking for a home has as much to do with it as immigration.

I still dont get the argument from people who say people are just whinging and house prices are fair ?

My first house was less than 4x my salary and interest rates where probably about 5pc - a cake walk - now its like 8x the average salary and 8pc+ interest and rising !

Home ownership is overrated anyways, just rent and move when your bored


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## Da Cat (30 October 2007)

just my 2 cents...

I tend to agree that the "housing affordibility crisis" has been hyped to some degree by sections of the community, be that by politicians, the "i want" generation and the media. However I think there is little denying that the cost of owning an average house in any of the major cities has increased dramatically over the past few years. 

The attached image is a graph of ration of the cost of a house vs annual income rom 2001 to 2006, for Qld and the coastal towns. Note the increase from 2.7 to 5.1 (housing cost/annual income).

As to whether this consistutes a "crisis" - I am not convinced. I'm sure that the media has a vested interest in hyping up the "crisis". Just look at the number of pages devoted in your weekend papers to real estate adverts - surely the bread and butter income source for the papers. Pushing the governments to release more land (as this seems to be the 'only' solution according to the media) will inevitably result in more avertising for the newspapers = more money.

I know that in my case, I am happy to wait and invest and save with the view in the future to owning my own place. In the meantime, I'm happy to rent and live where I want. 

As to the causes of the "crisis", I think there are a number of contributors, such as the taxation benefits for negative gearing (discussed previously) and the lack of diverse housing stock - particularly in desirable central city areas. However, I fail to see that Australia's immigration rates are a significant factor in increasing the price of houses through demand.

Anyway, sorry to rant - my thoughts at least


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## chops_a_must (30 October 2007)

KIWIKARLOS said:


> i just turned 25 and this talk of rents been 300 dollars and pays around 550-600 may be true but fact is if a single person on a single income is going to move into a house by themselves we should discourage this. What ever happen to shared living, i lived with 3 other people in a share house for a couple years we could all afford that and its much better environmentally.




Even still, it's getting pricey. Only 2 years ago I looked to rent in "inner city" Perth, or Leederville/ North Perth/ Mt. Lawley, there were heaps of places available for between $100-150. Now, the same places are fetching 3 times, sometimes 4 times as much. Perth has always been a low cost renting place, and wages haven't been spectacular either. But no-one can allow for or anticipate such a huge increase in costs, in such a short space of time.

And then of course you get the associated problems where the young people are moved out of an area, like in these instances, local businesses suffer, and the costs for youth end up rising anyway because they need a car to survive in the outer areas.

Wages just have not kept up with the cost of living, especially here in Perth. And the more people that come here, the worse the situation is going to get. We already have a massive shortage of teachers, nurses and other essential services. I just can't see how things can improve especially when these professionals have their incomes effectively cut by 20-40% by rising costs of living.

So no, I definitely do not think the mining boom has helped existing residents in Perth at least. And the more migration we get from interstate or overseas the worse these problems are going to become.

Unless something drastic is done, WA is going to be stuffed. Teacher shortages are above 100 in number, and forecasts for next year are for that shortage to blow out to between 200 and 1000 teachers.


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## insider (31 October 2007)

professor_frink said:


> evening folks,
> 
> I've deleted a post or 20 here. If you want to rip into each other do it privately.
> 
> ...




I personally would have removed the thread completely... this sort of topic was bound to get ugly as the previous other similar ones did... It's a great chance to see peoples character flaws... 

Enjoy the Pizza!


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## Buster (31 October 2007)

Hey Cruncher,



numbercruncher said:


> I still dont get the argument from people who say people are just whinging and house prices are fair ?
> 
> My first house was less than 4x my salary and interest rates where probably about 5pc - a cake walk - now its like 8x the average salary and 8pc+ interest and rising !




Ahh the good times..  Obviously not as old as you but my first two bedroom 'dogbox' was in excess of 4 x my salary and I was paying (fixed, thankfully..) 13.5%.. the poor buggers that didn't fix were paying almost 18%.. 

As a result, I have no sympathy for the current whingers.. They just don't realise they have an excellent opportunity..

Regards,

Buster


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## uhu (31 October 2007)

Hey, You, in the "northern island" 

I am sure you must be aboriginals.
Because everybody whose not aboriginals are immigrants... I am sorry, but my state was founded more than 1000 years ago...and yours?

So, if your grand-grandparents could go to Australia (I am sure you know the British joke about the prisonerers and You...), why do want to stop immigration? I think only aboriginals have the right (should have been).

Your parents allowed immigration for thousands of hungarian in '56, so, we are grateful...and the poles also...and you dont like asian food?

Have you seen the movie "Freedom and love". I think not, the topic is the hungarian waterpolo team's match against the russians in the olimpics of Melbourne. You know, a lot of player stayed in Australia. And others also...from the end of the 19th century more than 50000 hungarian could start a new life in your home.

I am sorry, my English is not correct...


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## exberliner1 (31 October 2007)

I lived in Sydney for 2 years working on a 457 visa and was thus a tax payer in Australia....it is illegal for a 457 visa holder to buy a house in Australia. I own a house in London and would have happily sold it and bought somewhere in Sydney but I was not allowed too.

Instead I had to join the scrum for a rental unit. After living in a hotel for 4 weeks I finally found a place by bidding above the asked rent. I couldn't believe it about 30 people turned up to see the place and the agent then started an auction outside to see who would pay the highest weekly rent.

For those of you who think that immigrants should not be allowed to buy a property what should they do...rent??? Rent what?? Where the work is in the inner cities there are no houses or units to rent at a sensible price.

I have since moved back to Europe and now live in Frankfurt. I rent a 140 sq.mtr appartment overlooking the river in the centre of town about 15 minutes walk from my office. This is shared with one other person and the monthly rent including telephone heating water electricty and gas in Euro 450 per month (about AU$700) per month each.

In Sydney I was paying about Au$ 2,200 per month and had a one hour train journey to work.

Don't blame the foreigners who are working in Australia and living in their own houses.

Perhaps something is broken in the system when a country the size of a huge continent and only 20mn inhabitants runs out of land???

Having said that I do plan to return to Australia but not the East Coast...somewhere between Fremantle and Perth would suit.

EB


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## algis (31 October 2007)

Something broken in the system?

Comparing western Europe with Australia - only 4 cities are larger than Sydney and Melbourne, and these belong to countries with more than 45M ppl:

Paris 9.8M  over 2720 sq km
London 8.5M over 1620 sq km
Madrid 5.6M over 1700 sq km
Barcelona 4.8M over 3240 sq km

Sydney 4.3M over 12140 sq km
Melbourne 3.6M over 7690 sq km

The population/area ratio kinda says something about cities predominantly formed before the advent of the motor car.

Was it Whitlam that made an initiative to position major govt departments in regional centres in an effort to decentralise the Aus population?


----------



## kgee (31 October 2007)

All this stuff about whingers "pi##'s" me off the fact as I see it is there is a huge problem for first home owners and its just going to get worse and nothin is being done about it .People whoe reccommend "grin and bear it" arrgggh!!
In my mind this could create such a diversion in wealth and a disenfranchising of youth it can only be bad for Australia as a whole
Oh yeah Exberliner good luck finding somewhere between Perth and Fremantle the rental market here is very tight!


----------



## exberliner1 (31 October 2007)

kgee....thats the reason I am in Europe...wages are much higher here in Euros and british pounds. I am working as a stockbroker in Frankfurt and together with my trading in small cap miners I am trying to put a pile of cash together for my return to Australia.

One thing I learned during my 2 years in Sydney... Australia is not a nice place unless you have lots of money.

Europe is different you can live here quite comfortably with a low income and little or no savings. In Australia that is impossible.

Anyway it's always good to have a plan.

EB


----------



## shinobi346 (31 October 2007)

Redcliffe is not close to the city. It's a good 30-35k's from town following the road and 25ks at best LOS. That's a good hours drive to and from work if the traffic is good. Until the state govt gets to it and extends the train line into Redcliffe city theres no easy, cheap and fast option to get to the CBD from there during peak hour.

I guess if you're strictly looking at house prices Redcliffe might be called affordable but I wouldnt really call it a saving in the big scheme of things if your repayment savings are then eaten away by higher transport costs.


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## Flying Fish (31 October 2007)

shinobi346 said:


> Redcliffe is not close to the city. It's a good 30-35k's from town following the road and 25ks at best LOS. That's a good hours drive to and from work if the traffic is good. Until the state govt gets to it and extends the train line into Redcliffe city theres no easy, cheap and fast option to get to the CBD from there during peak hour.
> 
> I guess if you're strictly looking at house prices Redcliffe might be called affordable but I wouldnt really call it a saving in the big scheme of things if your repayment savings are then eaten away by higher transport costs.




lol Brisbane trains are a Joke. worse than melb and Sydney


----------



## Kathmandu (31 October 2007)

shinobi346 said:


> Redcliffe is not close to the city. It's a good 30-35k's from town following the road and 25ks at best LOS. That's a good hours drive to and from work if the traffic is good. Until the state govt gets to it and extends the train line into Redcliffe city theres no easy, cheap and fast option to get to the CBD from there during peak hour.
> 
> I guess if you're strictly looking at house prices Redcliffe might be called affordable but I wouldnt really call it a saving in the big scheme of things if your repayment savings are then eaten away by higher transport costs.




In my links to affordable PERTH  rental property, I used Redcliffe as an example.

It is close to the CBD

From Google maps (Perth train station to Redcliffe)

Drive: 11.4 km – about 18 mins

 1. Head east on Wellington St toward Barrack St 0.2 km 
 2. Turn left at Barrack St 47 m 
 3. Continue on Beaufort St 0.5 km
2 mins 
 4. Turn left at Newcastle St 0.3 km
1 min 
 5. Turn left at William St 47 m 
 6. Turn left at Graham Farmer Fwy 4.3 km
4 mins 
 7. Take the exit toward Great Eastern Hwy 0.4 km 
 8. Turn left at Great Eastern Hwy 3.7 km
5 mins 
 9. Turn right at Epsom Ave 0.7 km
2 mins 
 10. At the roundabout, take the 1st exit onto Stanton Rd 0.8 km
2 mins 
 11. Continue on Second St 0.4 km 

To: Redcliffe WA




Sounds close to me, and houses under $300/pw

Dave


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## shinobi346 (31 October 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> lol Brisbane trains are a Joke. worse than melb and Sydney




I was more comparing train and car times here then Brisbane trains vs other cities.   If you saw the traffic here during peak hour, trust me, the trains are fast. 

Having not ridden on public transport down south recently, my southern aquaintances tell me our transport is cheap. A return ticket can be used all day, unlimited times and can be used on train, buses and ferries.

Our central station could be closer to the mall though.



Kathmandu said:


> To: Redcliffe WA
> 
> Sounds close to me, and houses under $300/pw
> 
> Dave




ok. gotcha now. That is cheap. It wouldnt make a bad IP.


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## exberliner1 (1 November 2007)

algis said:


> Something broken in the system?
> 
> Comparing western Europe with Australia - only 4 cities are larger than Sydney and Melbourne, and these belong to countries with more than 45M ppl:
> 
> ...




good point algis.....then with all that space why can normal people not afford a house on a normal Australian salary?

There seems to be pleny of room to put the houses in the Australian cities.

EB


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## Pommiegranite (1 November 2007)

exberliner1 said:


> good point algis.....then with all that space why can normal people not afford a house on a normal Australian salary?
> 
> There seems to be pleny of room to put the houses in the Australian cities.
> 
> EB




EB...where did you get those stats from?

I'm always interested in sizes/popoulations of cities, but can never find any reliable data.

FWIW...I don't believe Sydney is 8x the area size of London


----------



## moXJO (1 November 2007)

> Can you believe it? There are only 55 more sleeps until Christmas!
> 
> Okay, now that the friendly Santa reminder is behind us, I'm touching base with you today to have a quick chat about interest rates. There's quite a lot happening on world financial markets that savvy property investors need to know about.
> 
> ...




Recieved this email from Steve McKnight's site.Sorry its such a wall of text


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## algis (1 November 2007)

Pommiegranite said:


> EB...where did you get those stats from?
> 
> I'm always interested in sizes/popoulations of cities, but can never find any reliable data.
> 
> FWIW...I don't believe Sydney is 8x the area size of London





Wikipedia - world's largets cities  - compiled from UN World Urbanization Prospects report.

No details provided on how they defined the extent of the city form which you can determine the area, but take a look at the following google maps at the same scale:

Sydney

London

In the end, London is a far more compact city, meaning that if you live anywhere in London, you are not too far from things.  That doesn't necessarily apply to Sydney or Australia's other capital cities - urban sprawl since the advent of the car is what caused this.  Take a look at all those terraces made pre-1900 - compact use of space meant medium density living.  Medium density living no doubt has its problems, but it means efficient use of space and energy required to get around.


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## Pommiegranite (1 November 2007)

algis said:


> Wikipedia - world's largets cities - compiled from UN World Urbanization Prospects report.
> 
> No details provided on how they defined the extent of the city form which you can determine the area, but take a look at the following google maps at the same scale:
> 
> ...




See thats where that stats are messed up. I lived in London for most of my life, much of it in that 'compact use of space', and agree with the sq km stats for London.

However, for Sydney, 12,140 sq kms is just plain ridiculous. That would mean if Sydney's land area was squared shaped, it would measure 110ks by 110ks

Now, I know that Sydney from the city to western fringe is 60kms, and reckon from the far north to lets say Cronulla is around the same that would give 3600 sq kms. I'm not even taking into account all off the vast national parks that are no doubt included in the UN study.

Anyways...that was off topic...so back to banning us immgrants:sleeping:


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## REA (1 November 2007)

I suggest if you want a house then buy a house.   In the outer suburbs of Sydney you can buy a house from $270.000 in the Blacktown area, $250.000 in the Ambervale/Camden area.  If you don't buy the immigrates will they recognise any opportunity to improve their life, they did after the second world war bought anything they could afford in the outer areas and now they are some of the most wealthy people in the community.

No use sitting around there are opportunities in every suburb.


----------



## trinity (1 November 2007)

> I suggest if you want a house then buy a house. In the outer suburbs of Sydney you can buy a house from $270.000 in the Blacktown area




mate, Blacktown can be affordable, but it's not the safest suburb nor cleanest there is.  

Buying in the outer suburbs is OK, but you take into consideration the petrol consumption + travel time + toll, what do you end up with at the end of the day?


----------



## theasxgorilla (1 November 2007)

trinity said:


> Buying in the outer suburbs is OK, but you take into consideration the petrol consumption + travel time + toll, what do you end up with at the end of the day?




I can think of few worse versions of hell than to be trapped in the depths of suburbia with 1hr+ of stop-start commute to and from work every day.

I suspect that upward-social-mobility is the only answer for many who desire something better than this.


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## theasxgorilla (1 November 2007)

moXJO said:


> Recieved this email from Steve McKnight's site.Sorry its such a wall of text




I love it when people who made money during one phase of a cycle become experts at predicting the end of said cycle.  He's not an economist, he's an accountant who read a book or two and was inspired and became a property investor.  He has as much of a clue as the rest of us and access to about the same information.

DYOT (do your own thinking).


----------



## Kathmandu (1 November 2007)

Pommiegranite said:


> EB...where did you get those stats from?
> 
> I'm always interested in sizes/popoulations of cities, but can never find any reliable data.
> 
> FWIW...I don't believe Sydney is 8x the area size of London





Have a look on here as well

http://www.demographia.com/

Dave


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## Kathmandu (1 November 2007)

trinity said:


> mate, Blacktown can be affordable, but it's not the safest suburb nor cleanest there is.
> 
> Buying in the outer suburbs is OK, but you take into consideration the petrol consumption + travel time + toll, what do you end up with at the end of the day?




Cant have everything for $270k

What do you end up with??? a foot in the door.

Ever heard of gentrification? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification

Just need some FHB's to decide that affordability isnt the issue, their aspirations are.

Dave


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## numbercruncher (1 November 2007)

Worst advice ive heard in my life ..... Why on earth would anyone buy in a dodgy crime ridden suburb just to get on the "ladder".

Appalling advice, If you must be in realestate buy something in a decent area and rent it out or get in lodgers.

I dont know the figures on these dodgy western suburbs but im almost sure prices in real terms have been falling.


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## Kathmandu (1 November 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> Worst advice ive heard in my life ..... Why on earth would anyone buy in a dodgy crime ridden suburb just to get on the "ladder".
> 
> .




Yeah, thats what people said when I was trying to buy in Newfarm and Bulimba 20 years ago and the same with my recent ugly duckling purchases that have gone up 200% over the last 4 years.

No one wanted to live there either as they were dodgy crime ridden suburbs as well and they are flood prone.

But hey, go and buy something better for $500k and get tenants in for $300/week (mmm, doesnt work does it)

Dave


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## numbercruncher (1 November 2007)

Thats just plain bad advice Davo ......

your advice is buy a depreciating 300k dump box in a crime ridden western suburb and spend two hours per day extra travelling (add the costs!)

Does not buying the 500k appreciating asset in a desirable suburb close to work and pick up two hours OT a day to bridge the shortfall not make better sense ? hell youd probably get 150pw for each room you rented out as well.

Theres always a reason things are "cheap" , same with houses, shoes, food , whatever .....


----------



## Kathmandu (1 November 2007)

I thought the whole point of the discussion was that $500k is "unafordable"

And if buying old places in rundown areas is so bad, how come areas that are can sometimes do so well? (see above)

I used to travel from Redcliffe in Brisbane to Carole park near Ipswich to work before I was old enough to drive. (as a first year apprentice on $98-00/week in 1982)

That was leaving at 5-30am for a 7-00am start

4-00pm finish and home at 7-00pm

Amazing what people will do to get ahead, but maybe something the newer generation knows nothing about eh.

Dave


----------



## Kathmandu (2 November 2007)

edit to above:  I was'nt necesarilly saying Blacktown was THE area, but I am sure there are pockets of areas that suffer a stigma now, that will see gentrification at some stage and turn to gold.

Dave


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## moXJO (2 November 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> I love it when people who made money during one phase of a cycle become experts at predicting the end of said cycle.  He's not an economist, he's an accountant who read a book or two and was inspired and became a property investor.  He has as much of a clue as the rest of us and access to about the same information.
> 
> DYOT (do your own thinking).




No I want him to think for me 

It’s his opinion which is as valid as your posts. Personally I think he forgot that US exports will jump due to a lower dollar which should be a bigger plus to the economy then the credit crunch is a minus.But hey it’s always interesting seeing what others are doing or thinking.


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## professor_frink (2 November 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> Thats just plain bad advice Davo ......
> 
> your advice is buy a depreciating 300k dump box in a crime ridden western suburb and spend two hours per day extra travelling (add the costs!)
> 
> ...




300K

You can buy a 3 bedroom brick and tile job for 240K in Mt Druitt, which is just next door to Blacktown. And with all the money you save on a house, you can hire and bodyguard, get a couple of rotties, and buy some guns to try and keep yourself safe


----------



## Uncle Festivus (2 November 2007)

What a can of worms that opened for sure. I guess I didn't get my point across too well, as not even remotely thinking about any racial issues with the thread topic.

I'll go back a step. Why do we need more people? A company finds a pile of iron ore, gold or whatever and determines, in a financial sense that it is profitable to mine. They then find out that there aren't enough bodies in the country to do it, so what to do? Import people.

So these people come in and need somewhere to live, increasing competition for what is already available so prices go up. 

While obviously overly simplistic, this is the crux of the story being played out around Aus. The mining companies are getting their bodies & profits, but at what price for the rest of the community and are Australians sharing in those profits if affordability is negating any supposed benefits?

It is looking to be an issue of sustainability. Projects are undertaken to satisfy the hunger of our consumerist global economy, notably China, without taking into account any social negative consequences. Which is fair enough, everybody needs a job. But if we have a closed feed back loop which requires ever more consumption to continually expand, where does it end?


----------



## Trade wind (2 November 2007)

Interesting posts. Housing affordability is reaching crisis point but immigration is not the main driver. Blame it on changing demographics in the existing population, cheap money, a strong economy and good old fashioned greed, along with its handmaiden panic.

More and more people are single and living alone in Australia, and a whole generation of 20-somethings has had the chance to move out of mum and dads thanks to strong unemployment, economic confidence and the ease of borrowing money.

So demand on the housing market has grown, but new stock is not keeping up. Why? Lack of land? That's just the feds blaming the states. The fact is property is overpriced and developers are wary, the margins are dropping and the risk is increasing.

Do the sums. Property just doesn't add up. Rents are going to have to spiral a lot more to make buying a rental property viable. The driving force is capital gains, backed by cashed up baby boomers and speculators, especially at the mid to top end, and panic at the bottom end. At least in Melbourne, where I come from. Newspapers are forever running stories on soaring prices and the need to get in now before it's too late. It might sell newspapers, but does it make sense?

Though if buyers are prepared to pay almost anything, house prices will keep heading north. So what do you do about housing affordability? Keep interest rates low? It's politically unnacceptable to even talk about raising interest rates, but I'd suggest political pressure has kept them too low for years, driving the current boom. Do you increase housing incentives for first home buyers? That's crazy. It might help Aussie John's profits, but it will only further inflate the bubble.

My advice for prospective home buyers is sit tight. Put your money elsewhere. The boom may still have some legs - greed and panic know no logic - but there is a lesson to be learnt from the US market, and we are not immune.


----------



## TjamesX (2 November 2007)

Kathmandu said:


> Negative gearing is in place as an incentive for investors to purchase accomadation for those who choose to rent.
> 
> The Govt is not providing enough subsidised Accomadation if you havent noticed, and even if they were, do you really want to live in high rise housing commission ghettos?
> 
> ...




Aspirational crisis??? been hearing that a lot lately

This to add onto the list of Property Investor slogans;

- Investors don't effect house prices
- getting rid of negative gearing would cause rents to skyrocket and the world to end as we know it
- FHB's can't afford because they have an aspirational crisis

I think the pollies would love this, inflation would cease to exist - every price rise or drop in standard of living could be explained away as people having an aspirational crisis. If steak rises in price you should drop your aspirations and eat chicken, if chicken rises in price you should drop your aspirations and eat vegetables, if vegetables rise in price you should drop your aspirations and eat rice......

Didn't the PM just acknowledge that pensioners cost of living was rising faster than inflation - therefore the need to recieve higher benefits..... why couldn't they drop their aspirations and buy less electricity, food etc???

Policies flying left right and center regarding lowering super taxes, lifting pensions, healthcare subsidies..... 

What segment of society doesn't have an aspirational crisis??

The thing is House price rises are not seen as 'inflation' because that is a bad word, and for most of society it isn't inflation - its wealth creation, so it is inflation for a smaller segment of society and wealth creation for a larger segment... so it will never be treated for what it is, INFLATION. 

And I still don't know why people don't call negative gearing what it really is and its end effect - simply a government contrived economic preference for one class of owner to own the asset than another class, for which all tax payers subsidise... whether it actually results in increasing rental supply and builds more housing is really up for debate

More than my


----------



## Rafa (2 November 2007)

Uncle Festivus said:


> But if we have a closed feed back loop which requires ever more consumption to continually expand, where does it end?




It ends, Uncle Festivus, when mother nature decides enough is enough... (thats not to say the human race won't continue... we may just have to on another planet)

the biggest negative of this cheap money and the crazy focus of growth at all costs has ofcourse been the environment... closely followed by those not playing the financial game in the asset market.

Oh yes... and ofcoures asset market  booms so far don't count in the inflation figures... well, until the asset is oil.... or wheat... or water!


----------



## Kathmandu (2 November 2007)

TjamesX said:


> Didn't the PM just acknowledge that pensioners cost of living was rising faster than inflation - therefore the need to recieve higher benefits..... why couldn't they drop their aspirations and buy less electricity, food etc???




People really need these things to live.

I don't think  new 4 bedroom brick and tile homes with 2 bathrooms, ducted a/c, granite benchtops and european s/s appliances are required to live.

Add to that new cars, plasma's, mobile phones, designer label clothes, iPods etc etc. (none of which I have)

I'm sure most here over 35 probably did'nt get a new Jap import or Commodore ute as a first car (or even 5th car) or a flash new house /appartment as their first home, or have to have it iner city suburbs, yet it seems almost the norm today.

*Aspirational Crisis * I tells ya.

Dave


----------



## nioka (2 November 2007)

TjamesX said:


> Aspirational crisis???
> What segment of society doesn't have an aspirational crisis??




Heaven forbid that we do not have aspirations. It is the degree that creates the crisis. Those that want to have all the things that oldies have, including a pension, without doing the hard yards that the oldies have done, create the crisis.
 Get me going on this and I'll end up with RSI from typing all day.


----------



## ROE (2 November 2007)

Uncle Festivus said:


> What a can of worms that opened for sure. I guess I didn't get my point across too well, as not even remotely thinking about any racial issues with the thread topic.
> 
> I'll go back a step. Why do we need more people? A company finds a pile of iron ore, gold or whatever and determines, in a financial sense that it is profitable to mine. They then find out that there aren't enough bodies in the country to do it, so what to do? Import people.
> 
> ...




I think it's called the Capitalist model and that is the mostly used Model around the planet  Even China for all their socialist party cant help but use the capitalist model. Cant beat them, join them that the only way to get ahead


----------



## Uncle Festivus (2 November 2007)

ROE said:


> I think it's called the Capitalist model and that is the mostly used Model around the planet  Even China for all their socialist party cant help but use the capitalist model. Cant beat them, join them that the only way to get ahead




So would I be close to the mark to assume that this version of the capitalist model is being severely tested as to it's limits due to the current crisis unfolding which is rapidly spiralling out of control? At least it should give the environment a much needed break if it stalls a bit ie global recession? 

Which then questions the sustainability of the China capitalist/communist hybrid, both from a financial & environmental perspective. They measure the number of birth defect's in the 10's of millions, and rising exponentially. Capitalism & consumerism gone mad.


----------



## Happy (2 November 2007)

> From Yahoo News, Mon Oct 29, 10:59 PM ET
> 
> BIRTH DEFECTS SOAR IN POLLUTED CHINA
> 
> ...





Tragic, but what positive can come out of such a tragedy?

Incentive to reduce pollution, maybe sign Kyoto, also some organs for research.


----------



## ROE (2 November 2007)

Uncle Festivus said:


> So would I be close to the mark to assume that this version of the capitalist model is being severely tested as to it's limits due to the current crisis unfolding which is rapidly spiralling out of control? At least it should give the environment a much needed break if it stalls a bit ie global recession?
> 
> Which then questions the sustainability of the China capitalist/communist hybrid, both from a financial & environmental perspective. They measure the number of birth defect's in the 10's of millions, and rising exponentially. Capitalism & consumerism gone mad.




Maybe you on the wrong forum? This is a capitalist stock market forum and everything goes on the stock that make people money.

some are ethical investors, other are not ... it's not a perfect world. People make money for all sort of reasons and you can chose to be one of the two and if you truly want to make a difference. Become an investor and become rich, then you can influence people who make policy that affect this Planet. 
Without money and stop the migration antic you are nothing but a lost voice in this crowded planet.


----------



## Kathmandu (2 November 2007)

Happy said:


> Tragic, but what positive can come out of such a tragedy?
> 
> Incentive to reduce pollution, maybe sign Kyoto, also some organs for research.




From the deformed babies?

Dave


----------



## kgee (3 November 2007)

ROE said:


> Maybe you on the wrong forum? This is a capitalist stock market forum and everything goes on the stock that make people money.
> 
> some are ethical investors, other are not ... it's not a perfect world. People make money for all sort of reasons and you can chose to be one of the two and if you truly want to make a difference. Become an investor and become rich, then you can influence people who make policy that affect this Planet.
> Without money and stop the migration antic you are nothing but a lost voice in this crowded planet.




so if you don't have money you should just "shut up and put up"?


----------



## Uncle Festivus (3 June 2008)

Is that why it's called the rat race? Sydney is already choking in gridlock, with inadequate transport alternatives?



> SYDNEY'S population will grow by nearly 1 million people by 2021 due to the Rudd Government's expansion of the immigration program - putting huge strain on the city's public transport, health, education and *housing*.
> A leading demographer, Bob Birrell, said the immigration intake would pump up the city's population to more than 5.1 million, up from about 4.3 million now and 350,000 more than planners had expected.



http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/city-to-grow-by-a-million-people/2008/06/01/1212258647599.html

So when all these immigrants arrive, they won't be able to afford to live here?



> NURSES, teachers and paramedics cannot afford to buy houses in the areas they serve in because they are so underpaid, a national report has found.
> 
> The BankWest Key Worker Housing Affordability report, to be released today, shows Australia's 480,000 key workers are being forced to buy homes further and further away from the heart of capital cities, where house and unit prices have soared 66 per cent in five years.
> 
> ...



http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,23795301-14327,00.html


----------



## Uncle Festivus (1 February 2010)

Now the UnLucky country?



> *Wealthy migrants pricing locals out of Sydney property market     *Cashed up skilled migrants are driving up Australian property prices
> Skilled immigrants forcing up house prices
> Market driven by what highest bidder will pay
> Australian property 5.5 times household income
> ...



http://www.news.com.au/money/proper...-property-market/story-e6frfmd0-1225820461473


----------



## skc (1 February 2010)

Uncle Festivus said:


> Now the UnLucky country?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/money/proper...-property-market/story-e6frfmd0-1225820461473




Bring slavery back. Those unskilled slaves would have no chance bidding up the house prices. Did we see a property bubble in the Mayan empire? I don't think so.

And ban the migrants from buying shares. It only takes the highest bidder to drive up the share price. I want to buy cheap shares!

And ban the migrants from buying food. Surely they are driving up inflation.

In fact, ban them from getting a job all together. They seem to be driving up the average salary. In fact, I bet you there is 98% correlation between average salary and increase in skilled migrants over the last decade. We don't need higher salaries!


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## Timmy (1 February 2010)

Uncle F.  - stop it!  You are only providing evidence for these researchers!

Australia ranked world number one for sinning
_In a study of 35 countries, Australians come up as the most likely to commit one of the biblical seven deadly sins._
_Topping each of the sin categories were South Korea (lust), the US (gluttony), Mexico (greed), Iceland (sloth and pride), South Africa (wrath) and *Australia (envy).*_


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## vincent191 (1 February 2010)

Uncle Festivus;

Don't forget that without Migrants the demand for Goods and Services (including housing) will drop and you might end up without a job.


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## startrader (1 February 2010)

Last year I returned to the area where I grew up, having been way for a number of years, and since then I have been keeping an eye on real estate in this area with a view to buying an apartment.  At the same time I started noticing in my local fruit shop in Sylvania, NSW, the very large number of Chinese shopping there (obviously new arrivals as they weren't speaking English).  Also a lot of the staff there are Chinese.  

Over the last eight months I also started to notice the very fast rate at which the prices of apartments were rising in this area and last week official figures were released which show that real estate prices in Sylvania Waters have increased by *53 percent* in the last year!!!

Now I have nothing against the Chinese but I sure have something against the fact that the government last year relaxed the requirements for foreigners buying property in Australia.  40% of home sales in Melbourne at the moment over $1million are to Chinese and Indian buyers.  

I also think that the number of migrants we are getting at the moment is way too large.  I think that short term it makes the economic numbers look good for the government but long term it's not good for us as the infrastructure etc. cannot keep pace.

This is a problem which is getting out of hand and should be addressed.  Why on earth were those rules relating to foreign ownership relaxed?

This should be a concern for all Australians as how are our children at this rate going to be able to afford to buy a house in their own country?


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## Trembling Hand (1 February 2010)

startrader said:


> I sure have something against the fact that the government last year relaxed the requirements for foreigners buying property in Australia.  40% of home sales in Melbourne at the moment over $1million are to Chinese and Indian buyers.




Source??


----------



## startrader (1 February 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Source??




Just found the article, after a bit of searching.  Probably not that reliable as it is the opinion of a Melbourne real estate agent (last few paragraphs of the article).  The article is worth a read though, in my opinion.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/bus...ock-to-australian-property-20091105-hzx3.html


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## Timmy (1 February 2010)

If Robots & Kincella were here they would be loving all this talk of strong residential RE prices ... they might be tempted to utter a quiet "Told ya so!"


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## vincent191 (1 February 2010)

Who is going to build new houses and apartments if there is no one around to buy them? Don't forget the building and construction industry generates a hugh amount of employment and income via indirect taxes for the government. Without the migration scheme we may not have escape the global financial crisis and we might have to pay more in taxes.

In the earlier post in the USA right now you can buy houses - cheap, but you will also have to put up with high unemployment, stagnant wages and high government deficits which will eventually translate to higher taxes.

Which is the lesser of the two evils is very subjective.


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## ChilliBlue (1 February 2010)

The difference I havepersonally noted between many immigrants and Australian born is that the Australian born expect to have exactly what their parents have at the present moment the minute they start working.

They do see that their parents had an older smaller unit or home, the furniture was bare minimal and often second hand and their kids had second hand.

There were no overseas holidays each year, no 2 new cars in the driveway along with the boat and caravan.

Goods purchased lived their entire lifespan and were not updated every 2-3 years.

No eating out every day no buying of coffees everyday.

tell that to a Gen X or Y that is how you save to buy a nice home and they will puke.

Many of them change jobs every 2-3 years along with all their wordly posessions and simply are not good credit risks for the lenders.

Hey, I not bagging anyone who does enjoy the niceties in life, but you cannot complain if you cant afford to buy a property.

Everything is attainable if you are smart in working hard and saving. Life does not always give you things you want simply because you think you derserve it.

Sorry but that is my two cents worth.

My background is of a low income home because my father died quite young.

However, at the age of 25 I already had one house paid off. It was a very basic red brick home down the coast. From humber beginnings I now have have beautiful  home 20 minutes from Sydney as well as a subtantial nest egg.

I could have moaned and waited for it, but what would that have achieved?


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## Mofra (1 February 2010)

ChilliBlue said:


> I could have moaned and waited for it, but what would that have achieved?



Instead you moan about (incorrect) stereotypes on the younger generation now. What progress


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## Mr J (1 February 2010)

ChilliBlue said:


> They do*n't* see that their parents had an older smaller unit or home, the furniture was bare minimal and often second hand and their kids had second hand.




Of course we expect it - it's the world we have grown up in. Our parents saw a different example in their parents, so it seems logical there is going to be a difference in expectations. Did we create this attitude? No, we picked it up by being fortunate enough to live in excess. You can't blame us for it, do you really think that the majority of boomers would have been any different?


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## wayneL (1 February 2010)

Mr J said:


> Of course we expect it - it's the world we have grown up in. Our parents saw a different example in their parents, so it seems logical there is going to be a difference in expectations. Did we create this attitude? No, we picked it up by being fortunate enough to live in excess. You can't blame us for it, do you really think that the majority of boomers would have been any different?



Yes

It's chicken and egg stuff. We would not have the economy we have without the heightened expectations & spending.

People expect what they're conditioned to expect.

It's also a function of available credit.

Our parents couldn't get credit cards (depending how old we are ) and most certainly couldn't get anywhere near the credit that is available today. Plus technology has made many things cheaper, relatively.

Pull the rug from the credit bubble and the whole game changes.


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## startrader (1 February 2010)

ChilliBlue said:


> The difference I havepersonally noted between many immigrants and Australian born is that the Australian born expect to have exactly what their parents have at the present moment the minute they start working.
> 
> They do see that their parents had an older smaller unit or home, the furniture was bare minimal and often second hand and their kids had second hand.
> 
> ...




I have three children aged 28, 26 and 24.  All of them are extremely frugal, have no credit cards, do not change jobs every 2-3 years, rarely go on holidays, do not eat out every day and work hard.

The eldest has bought a tiny apartment with her husband, and both of them are on high salaries.

My other two children have very little prospect of being able to buy any property as after they have paid their weekly rent and bills there is very little left over.  So at the rate they are going it will take years to save a deposit for a shoe box of an apartment.


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## Trembling Hand (1 February 2010)

startrader said:


> I have three children aged 28, 26 and 24.  All of them are extremely frugal, have no credit cards, do not change jobs every 2-3 years, rarely go on holidays, do not eat out every day and work hard.
> 
> The eldest has bought a tiny apartment with her husband, and both of them are on high salaries.
> 
> My other two children have very little prospect of being able to buy any property as after they have paid their weekly rent and bills there is very little left over.  So at the rate they are going it will take years to save a deposit for a shoe box of an apartment.




Well startrader the trade that needs to be done here seems obvious,

Change jobs.


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## skc (1 February 2010)

Let me start by saying that I have met many younger workers who had the stereotypical attitude, and many who work as hard as anyone I've seen. There are also as many who are frugal as those who live on credit cards... So I am actually quite impartial when it comes to younger generations.



Mr J said:


> Of course we expect it - it's the world we have grown up in. Our parents saw a different example in their parents, so it seems logical there is going to be a difference in expectations. Did we create this attitude? No, we picked it up by being fortunate enough to live in excess. You can't blame us for it, do you really think that the majority of boomers would have been any different?




But this response actually fits the stereotype quite well. Instead of seeing their own failures, accepting responsibility and looking for a solution, this response is basically saying "Not our fault, can't blame us, you wouldn't have been able to do any better so why should we". Way to go!


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## Mr J (1 February 2010)

It does, but the only purpose of that post is to counter those criticising younger generations and taking no responsibility for their own influence. Sure, irresponsible kids have themselves to blame, but I would bet their parents aren't setting a good example.


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## GumbyLearner (1 February 2010)

I had a very interesting experience recently. 

I was on a plane enroute from Incheon to Melbourne. Seated next to me was a young bloke from China. Quite an affable and friendly character. We got chatting about various things in between his portable gaming console sessions. I asked him if he would like to read a book but he told me he hated reading. I was reading the 48 Laws of War by Robert Greene. 

He recently graduated from an Aussie University in IT and had just obtained Australian permanent residency.The young man also told me that he resided in Toorak and his family were in the Iron Ore business back in China.

He asked me where I lived. I told him I lived in Asia. He asked me why I didn't live in Australia? I told him it was too expensive and that Asia will have a more prosperous future than western countries. I also told him that I have considered obtaining Korean citizenship.  He was stunned by this and asked me why I didn't want to keep an Australian passport.  I told him there were benefits learning a new language and living in a different culture that Australia didn't provide. 

It's a strange world we live in Master Jack.


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> He asked me where I lived. I told him I lived in Asia. He asked me why I didn't live in Australia? I told him it was too expensive and that Asia will have a more prosperous future than western countries. I also told him that I have considered obtaining Korean citizenship.  He was stunned by this and asked me why I didn't want to keep an Australian passport.  I told him there were benefits learning a new language and living in a different culture that Australia didn't provide.



Wondering if can buy two houses for the cost of one Australian?







> It's a strange world we live in Master Jack.



Yes it is.


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## GumbyLearner (1 February 2010)

GumbyLearner said:


> I had a very interesting experience recently.
> 
> I was on a plane enroute from Incheon to Melbourne. Seated next to me was a young bloke from China. Quite an affable and friendly character. We got chatting about various things in between his portable gaming console sessions. I asked him if he would like to read a book but he told me he hated reading. I was reading the 48 Laws of War by Robert Greene.
> 
> ...




correction the book I was reading was the 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene.


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## GumbyLearner (1 February 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Wondering if can buy two houses for the cost of one Australian?
> Yes it is.





great vid. wysi 

cheers


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## Happy (1 February 2010)

I believe that every job should provide enough income to buy property not only very high salaries.


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## nunthewiser (1 February 2010)

LOL wysiwyg and ya reckoned i was old!

Bleedin hippies 

Nice vid


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