# Perth Mint



## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

Just called the Perth Mint re buying gold.

They have 2 ways allocated (physical gold)and unallocated (a share of their stash all fully backed with physical gold)

The first has no fees the second has 1.5% PA storage fees.

So why would anyone take the second option ?


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## Trevor_S (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> So why would anyone take the second option ?




Probably because most people would not feel comfortable having a stash of gold around the house. ie are you going to store "physical" gold ?


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

Trevor_S said:


> Probably because most people would not feel comfortable having a stash of gold around the house. ie are you going to store "physical" gold ?




The first option is backed by physical gold so why would you need your own physical gold and pay storage ?


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## investorpaul (17 February 2009)

Trevor_S said:


> Probably because most people would not feel comfortable having a stash of gold around the house. ie are you going to store "physical" gold ?




It would be awesome through to have a gold bar to polish every night.

On a more serious note: I think it depends on your time frame, are you holding gold with a view that it will increase in value and then you will sell for a profit. Or do you want security in knowing that you have something of value that can be used worldwide that isnt cash.

If it is option 1 I would have them hold it and pay the fee, if it was option 2 go and buy a safe and stash it at your house.


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

investorpaul said:


> It would be awesome through to have a gold bar to polish every night.
> 
> On a more serious note: I think it depends on your time frame, are you holding gold with a view that it will increase in value and then you will sell for a profit. Or do you want security in knowing that you have something of value that can be used worldwide that isnt cash.
> 
> If it is option 1 I would have them hold it and pay the fee, if it was option 2 go and buy a safe and stash it at your house.




There's really no need, Perth Mint have to buy it back at current prices, be it physical gold or the unallocated option.


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## Uncle Festivus (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Just called the Perth Mint re buying gold.
> 
> They have 2 ways allocated (physical gold)and unallocated (a share of their stash all fully backed with physical gold)
> 
> ...




I think that's the other way around - you pay storage fees for allocated. Unallocated is riskier - first in best dressed.

http://www.perthmint.com.au/investment_certificate_product_options.aspx


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

Uncle Festivus said:


> I think that's the other way around - you pay storage fees for allocated. Unallocated is riskier - first in best dressed.
> 
> http://www.perthmint.com.au/investment_certificate_product_options.aspx




Yes sorry, other way round, I'm told even with unallocated you can go in pay a fee and collect phyical gold. They are also required to buy it back whenever you decide to sell at current rates.

So why would you pay 1.5% PA ?

I'll go for the unallocated one I think.


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

I won't get the certificate program, I get delivery.

That's the best deal because you have something real in return (unlike shares)

It is government backed, but if the gold price was to default?   I think they will only give you cash back for it.

Cash is trash, because it is only based on interest. 
And cash won't protect you in a inflationary market (Remember Germany before the WW2?).

I mean, since the Dollar had been off the Gold standard (1931 and again in 1971), we have had deflation and inflation go all over the place.  Hence the volatility of the markets.

We are living in some very interesting times.  The choice is up to you.

If you like more info, I can post links.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

TRY taking delivery of immediate bullion (gold ingots/bars) 

plenny of coins for sale 

ringem i dare ya,s


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

electronicmaster said:


> I won't get the certificate program, I get delivery.
> 
> That's the best deal because you have something real in return (unlike shares)
> 
> ...




Thanks for that but I'm not going to keep 6 figures in gold in the house or a safe deposit box. I'll take the risk with the unallocated option, it's still backed by physical gold that they hold.


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## Buddy (17 February 2009)

I guess one of the differences is that theoretically even though the guvmint guarantees "delivery" they could make the ownership of gold illegal. They have done it in the past. So they could easily nick the unallocated gold. Provided you have sufficient warning to could take delivery quickly of your allocated stock and store it in a well hidden place. Then if the guvmint man comes around you could always say you lost it or forget where it's stored. 
The section defining unallocated gold details the risks fairly comprehensively.
http://www.perthmint.com.au/investment_invest_in_gold_storage_options.aspx 
Allocated vs unallocated? It just depends on how much you trust the Mint and the guvmint.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Thanks for that but I'm not going to keep 6 figures in gold in the house or a safe deposit box. I'll take the risk with the unallocated option, it's still backed by physical gold that they hold.




IF thats the case m8 . why not buy GOLD as listed on the asx , much easier to setup no storage fees no account fees 

worth a look if all u want is a bit of paper saying you hold some shiny stuff somewhere

i hold physical gold as im a paranoid bugga and think the powers that be that guarentee this and that arnt worth the paper they write it on 

my paranoid view only


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

Buddy said:


> I guess one of the differences is that theoretically even though the guvmint guarantees "delivery" they could make the ownership of gold illegal. They have done it in the past. So they could easily nick the unallocated gold. Provided you have sufficient warning to could take delivery quickly of your allocated stock and store it in a well hidden place. Then if the guvmint man comes around you could always say you lost it or forget where it's stored.
> The section defining unallocated gold details the risks fairly comprehensively.
> http://www.perthmint.com.au/investment_invest_in_gold_storage_options.aspx
> Allocated vs unallocated? It just depends on how much you trust the Mint and the guvmint.




Science fiction........ I refuse to worry that much.........yet


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## prawn_86 (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Thanks for that but I'm not going to keep 6 figures in gold in the house or a safe deposit box. I'll take the risk with the unallocated option, it's still backed by physical gold that they hold.




My old man has his gold buried somewhere. Just like a pirate... arrr


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> IF thats the case m8 . why not buy GOLD as listed on the asx , much easier to setup no storage fees no account fees
> 
> worth a look if all u want is a bit of paper saying you hold some shiny stuff somewhere




Is it backed by physical gold and guaranteed by the Govt ?

See there's the difference.


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> My old man has his gold buried somewhere. Just like a pirate... arrr




Be careful of alzheimer's.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Is it backed by physical gold and guaranteed by the Govt ?
> 
> See there's the difference.




was only a suggestion . i suggest research as i only use the code GOLD as trading vehicle..nothing more


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Thanks for that but I'm not going to keep 6 figures in gold in the house or a safe deposit box. I'll take the risk with the unallocated option, it's still backed by physical gold that they hold.




Well you can diversify your holdings.

But delivery is king


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> was only a suggestion . i suggest research as i only use the code GOLD as trading vehicle..nothing more




Oh.....I'm just floating this to see if there's a reason for me not to do this and I cant see one yet. Japans going over the edge, the US will follow and I dont thing the KRuddster and Swanny will do much here except look concerned and vow to do everything possible ..............blah blah


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

electronicmaster said:


> Well you can diversify your holdings.




The rest is in cash till I get another brilliant idea.


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## prawn_86 (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Be careful of alzheimer's.




Dont worry i also know where it is, i keep a close track of my future inheritance...


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## Buddy (17 February 2009)

Unless you are physically purchasing and taking delivery, I believe you have to open an account with the mint for $50k, for either allocated or unallocated. Is that your understanding, Mr B?


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## disarray (17 February 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> i keep a close track of my future inheritance.




a mountain of debt?


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The rest is in cash till I get another brilliant idea.




Silver is good too


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Oh.....I'm just floating this to see if there's a reason for me not to do this and I cant see one yet. Japans going over the edge, the US will follow and I dont thing the KRuddster and Swanny will do much here except look concerned and vow to do everything possible ..............blah blah




totally agree re the state of things ....i hold physical gold , untrusting of paper gold , YES there are security risks but they can be overcome rather easily with a lil creative thinking 

sheet hits the fan m8 i know what id rather have in my hand .

each to there own m8 , but im a paranoid bugga and figure that if armageddon ever comes . a piece of paper may be only worth a piece of paper IF ppl break there promises ...but a bar of gold in hand will be worth what anybody is willing to give you for it


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Dont worry i also know where it is, i keep a close track of my future inheritance...




I'd be worried whats wrong with a safety deposit box at the bank ?


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## Worthless Paper (17 February 2009)

If youre buying bullion, you may aswell take delivery and hide it in your house. Its not like it takes up alot of room. When this house of cards blows over, id rather have it in my hot little hands. Besides, ive heard Jason Hommel of silver stock report slagging off Perth Mint...Do a google search 'Jason Homel Perth Mint' and see what pops up. I dont know whether its warranted.....the ultimate question is where do you foresee greatest risk? Buried in your backyard or locked up at Perth Mint.


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## prawn_86 (17 February 2009)

disarray said:


> a mountain of debt?




lol no luckily  Debt free at this stage, property values just depend on water in the River Murray (so in other words the properties will be worth 0)


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> totally agree re the state of things ....i hold physical gold , untrusting of paper gold , YES there are security risks but they can be overcome rather easily with a lil creative thinking
> 
> sheet hits the fan m8 i know what id rather have in my hand .
> 
> each to there own m8 , but im a paranoid bugga and figure that if armageddon ever comes . a piece of paper may be only worth a piece of paper IF ppl break there promises ...but a bar of gold in hand will be worth what anybody is willing to give you for it




If you hold physical gold it should be in Krugerrands or other coins......... easier to trade.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> If you hold physical gold it should be in Krugerrands or other coins......... easier to trade.




too m uch of a premium when buying . have a look at the site .big difference in purchase price ... gold is gold sold by weight . making it into prettier objects still does not change the actual weight value

i think ive worded that wrong but i know what im saying


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Oh.....I'm just floating this to see if there's a reason for me not to do this and I cant see one yet. Japans going over the edge, the US will follow and I dont thing the KRuddster and Swanny will do much here except look concerned and vow to do everything possible ..............blah blah




Check this out.  It will help you see how big this issue is

goldsilver.com expert videos


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

Worthless Paper said:


> If youre buying bullion, you may aswell take delivery and hide it in your house. Its not like it takes up alot of room. When this house of cards blows over, id rather have it in my hot little hands. Besides, ive heard Jason Hommel of silver stock report slagging off Perth Mint...Do a google search 'Jason Homel Perth Mint' and see what pops up. I dont know whether its warranted.....the ultimate question is where do you foresee greatest risk? Buried in your backyard or locked up at Perth Mint.




I'm not seeing Armageddon but very hard times - 

Disastrous unemployment
Company profits decimated
Property both residential and commercial crucified.
Banks restricting withdrawals,

It would have to be absolute end of the world stuff if the Govt reneged on it's monetary obligations, I dont see it getting that bad.


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

Buddy said:


> Unless you are physically purchasing and taking delivery, I believe you have to open an account with the mint for $50k, for either allocated or unallocated. Is that your understanding, Mr B?




Here's the drill - 



> PERTH MINT CERTIFICATE PROGRAMME (PMCP)
> 
> The account opening minimum is only AU $ 5,000.
> Each certificate costs AU $10.00.
> ...


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'd be worried whats wrong with a safety deposit box at the bank ?




There has been reports that the banks in the USA have been taking peoples wealth if the safety deposit box has been abandoned.  Abandoned mean you have not visited the  safety deposit box for three years.

And the banks seem to have rights to brake into the deposit box if the government says so


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

electronicmaster said:


> There has been reports that the banks in the USA have been taking peoples wealth if the safety deposit box has been abandoned.  Abandoned mean you have not visited the  safety deposit box for three years.
> 
> And the banks seem to have rights to brake into the deposit box if the government says so





I wouldnt worry about that.


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## sinner (17 February 2009)

There's little point getting Perth Mint Certificates if you live in Australia, which is really a play for international money (mostly American suckers). May as well buy 100 lots of ZAUWBA on the ASX (PMs version of GOLD).

For all intents and purposes GOLD and ZAUWBA are interchangeable, you could hold both even. If you are going to get unallocated certs you might as well place a leveraged net long on the COMEX, because that is what you are gambling on: future production.

I think for the reasons you are buying gold, it would be silly to not at least hold some of it physically. Otherwise you are just transferring your entire counterparty risk from the RBA to WA state government.


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

sinner said:


> There's little point getting Perth Mint Certificates if you live in Australia, which is really a play for international money (mostly American suckers). May as well buy 100 lots of ZAUWBA on the ASX (PMs version of GOLD).
> 
> For all intents and purposes GOLD and ZAUWBA are interchangeable, you could hold both even. If you are going to get unallocated certs you might as well place a leveraged net long on the COMEX, because that is what you are gambling on: future production.
> 
> I think for the reasons you are buying gold, it would be silly to not at least hold some of it physically. Otherwise you are just transferring your entire counterparty risk from the RBA to WA state government.




I've got no idea what you're talking about thats my level of understanding of these things.

WA Govt holds physical gold to cover the unallocated certs, you can actually go there and take it away for a fee.


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## dirty_harry (17 February 2009)

Gold peaked at 850 last bull market run then crashed. People were cashing in their rings to melt down. That could be the sell indicator this time. The peak may be more than double what it is now, but at the end of the day it just sits there.
Considering current prices I would say buy a farm instead. 
There will be many, many hungry people to feed and you won't need a safety deposit box to put it in.


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## Worthless Paper (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm not seeing Armageddon but very hard times -
> 
> Disastrous unemployment
> Company profits decimated
> ...




Not end of the world stuff at all. Nixon reneged on gold convertibility in 1971. FDR confiscated all privaely held gold in 1933. We are in 100 times the trouble today than in the 30s or the 70s.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

Worthless Paper said:


> FDR confiscated all privaely held gold in 1933. We are in 100 times the trouble today than in the 30s or the 70s.




 gotta find it first . oh then deal with a pitbull with aids , a bishop with an uzi , then finally put up with a booby trapped nun


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

Yes indeed.

A synthetic CDO is a collateralized debt obligation.  Any one like to see what happens to any investor if only 9 holding companys default (out of 100)?

What do you think that bail out plan was for?


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## Worthless Paper (17 February 2009)

You and me nun. Depends whos telling you to turn it in though.

Blind faith would have people handing over their gold together with their first born child if Obama were to ask nicely.


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## Uncle Festivus (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Yes sorry, other way round, I'm told even with unallocated you can go in pay a fee and collect phyical gold. They are also required to buy it back whenever you decide to sell at current rates.
> 
> So why would you pay 1.5% PA ?
> 
> I'll go for the unallocated one I think.



Unallocated means it's in a pool and you are not guaranteed to get your allocation if there is a run on gold - you might as well buy cfd's or futures.



MrBurns said:


> I've got no idea what you're talking about thats my level of understanding of these things.
> 
> WA Govt holds physical gold to cover the unallocated certs, you can actually go there and take it away for a fee.



 The way I read it is that they may have the amount of gold allocated to the unallocated but it may not be there when you want it as they may have lent it out?


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

Uncle Festivus said:


> Unallocated means it's in a pool and you are not guaranteed to get your allocation if there is a run on gold - you might as well buy cfd's or futures.
> 
> The way I read it is that they may have the amount of gold allocated to the unallocated but it may not be there when you want it as they may have lent it out?




They say they have all unallocated accounts covered  by physical gold so why would there be a problem ?. Nothing in there about them lending it out, i'm told as the sell unallocated they get the gold in to cover it.

Not like banks that have lent our money to numerous people who will never pay it back.


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## moXJO (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> They say they have all unallocated accounts covered  by physical gold so why would there be a problem ?. Nothing in there about them lending it out, i'm told as the sell unallocated they get the gold in to cover it.
> 
> Not like banks that have lent our money to numerous people who will never pay it back.




I heard different, and that they were short. Not sure on how reliable the source was, but I'm sure its floating out there on the net somewhere.


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

I never trust what a Bank says.  They only see numbers that have been given to them to read.  I suspect they don't really know themselves how bad their books could be IMO.

Changing the subject, sorry 

However.  If nine companys that hold synthetic CDO's default, then the central banks will have incoming money in the amount of trillions in a day.  It will be game over for any investor that hold synthetic CDO's.

edit:  Not trying to scare anyone, but that's a good reason to get into PM's


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

So the concensus is physical gold ? , would have to be kept at Perth Mint, I pay 1.5% for the priviledge ? any other wise words before I think about it and do nothing as usual ?


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> So the concensus is physical gold ? , would have to be kept at Perth Mint, I pay 1.5% for the priviledge ? any other wise words before I think about it and do nothing as usual ?




Check it out for yourself
A-tsunami-of-hope-or-terror


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## explod (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> So the concensus is physical gold ? , would have to be kept at Perth Mint, I pay 1.5% for the priviledge ? any other wise words before I think about it and do nothing as usual ?




Mine is kept in a personal vault for which I pay a fee.   From my reading I trust no one.   One of those EFT's was caught out just recently and went belly up, holders lost the lot.   I think Perth Mint would be ok but prefer under my own control.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> So the concensus is physical gold ? , would have to be kept at Perth Mint, I pay 1.5% for the priviledge ? any other wise words before I think about it and do nothing as usual ?




YES ..... find a bullion dealer in melbourne instead... listed on the mints website . get a safedeposit box OR bury the poo / paint it blackand stick it in the fireplace/paint it white and build a bbbq with it   /whatever JUST IN CASE ...... at least that way YOU have access to the goodies when YOU want . ...... seriously consider having it accesible AWAY from point of purchase and in YOUR control rather than someone elses .....

just in case 

a paranoid nun


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

electronicmaster said:


> Check it out for yourself
> A-tsunami-of-hope-or-terror




You know even reading the explanation it still escapes me , are you saying having unallocated gold at the Perth Mint is a CDO ? and whats an EFT ?


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## gfresh (17 February 2009)

What are you going to do with your gold when the economy collapses? gaze in awe at it, as somebody clubs you over the head to steal your food? 

Holding physical gold to me seems a bit untested as to whether it would have absolutely any saving grace in the modern system if things truly collapsed.


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

gfresh said:


> What are you going to do with your gold when the economy collapses? gaze in awe at it, as somebody clubs you over the head to steals your food?
> 
> Holding physical gold to me seems a bit untested as to whether it would have absolutely any saving grace in the modern system if things truly collapsed.




I can see it only in a Planet of the Apes scenario, and you would need coins, try taking a kilo bar into the supermarket, but there wouldn't be any supermarkets would there. buggered if I know.
When you look at these things critically they don't always add up.


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> You know even reading the explanation it still escapes me , are you saying having unallocated gold at the Perth Mint is a CDO ? and whats an EFT ?




Oh crap.  No that is not what I meant.  The CDO issue is different and was to let you know what we are in for in general.  And a good reason to buy Physical PM's.   

I have no idea (appart from the known list of companys) who has invested in CDO's.  be it government or any other ..

Go physical.  it is king.

EDIT.  I think he means ETF's that is yet another way of buying Gold shares.  I do not recommend investing in gold ETF's


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

I was once told (by someone who should know)that if you have 10% of your assets in gold if the ****e hits the fan the gold will be worth more than the remaining 90% thats the only reason I'm considering this.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

Um how about buying smaller bars guys ?? no good having a kilo bar to swap for a cow if ya need a cow at some point when a 1oz bar will do fine

look your reasons and my reasons for holding/thinking about gold may be VERY different . mine was bought a few years back JUST as an emergency asset that could be hidden  away until it was needed and needed quickly .


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

however  i did try to buy bullion as in bars NOT coins frome perth mint a few months ago and was informed AT TIME that i either had to buy certificates (which could NOT be exchanged there and then )OR go ona waiting list for physical delivery ...... i walked away


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> Um how about buying smaller bars guys ?? no good having a kilo bar to swap for a cow if ya need a cow at some point when a 1oz bar will do fine
> 
> look your reasons and my reasons for holding/thinking about gold may be VERY different . mine was bought a few years back JUST as an emergency asset that could be hidden  away until it was needed and needed quickly .




Yes 1/2 ounce 1 ounce, 100 ounce, and any grams of gold would be good.

It is always good to diversify but you do pay less premium on the bigger bars.

And Silver is a good investment too.


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I was once told (by someone who should know)that if you have 10% of your assets in gold if the ****e hits the fan the gold will be worth more than the remaining 90% thats the only reason I'm considering this.




That would be correct, as it has been the case for me just with Silver alone.

I have now made 52% on my Silver and 19% on my Gold already in the first 6 weeks into this new year.

Edit: and that's just using a (low) 5 figure investment


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## Uncle Festivus (17 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> Um how about buying smaller bars guys ?? no good having a kilo bar to swap for a cow if ya need a cow at some point when a 1oz bar will do fine




I usually buy the amount which would take the total beneath the $10k notify level, which used to be 10oz easy, but now down to 5oz bars. In any event, you just take the larger bars to a gold jeweler to get melted down to whatever size you would need, but that would be in circumstances vastly worse than now as you would lose the 'makers mark' premium eg ABC pay slighlty more for their own brand bars.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

Uncle Festivus said:


> I usually buy the amount which would take the total beneath the $10k notify level,  .




 amen 

glad to see another believer in the subtelties of transaction privacy

cheers

for some this may be impractable and they may not care if the guvverment knows what amounts they sit on


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

re previous posts 

i am a nun ........ honesty is the best policy . so if you buy 100 units at $9,900 each in individual transactions i suggest you write to your guvverment/ato to inform them of your total holdings


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## johnnyg (17 February 2009)

gfresh said:


> What are you going to do with your gold when the economy collapses? gaze in awe at it, as somebody clubs you over the head to steal your food?
> 
> Holding physical gold to me seems a bit untested as to whether it would have absolutely any saving grace in the modern system if things truly collapsed.




I too think about this point. In an apocalyptic event hypothetically what would people look to for value? Hell you might be better off buying a couple pallets of long life canned baked beans and use them to trade for things your after.


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> I too think about this point. In an apocalyptic event hypothetically what would people look to for value? Hell you might be better off buying a couple pallets of long life canned baked beans and use them to trade for things your after.




That's what I'm doing with 15kg bags of rice


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> I too think about this point. In an apocalyptic event hypothetically what would people look to for value? Hell you might be better off buying a couple pallets of long life canned baked beans and use them to trade for things your after.




 i think gold takes up a lil less space tho


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## johnnyg (17 February 2009)

True Nun, however say you've got your gold, and Mr burns has his pallets of canned baked beans. When the food supply starts to dry up, whats going to be worth more to people? How much will Mr burns sell you 100 cans for? 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 ounce? Or will he have to give you all his pallets plus more for your ounce of gold? Who holds the upper hand? What has more value?

I hope the the above scenario hopefully never prevails, but it leads back to the original post by gfresh - _Holding physical gold to me seems a bit untested as to whether it would have absolutely any saving grace in the modern system if things truly collapsed._

Open to discussion.


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

Gold is going high today.  It is over $1500.00AUD

And I reckon it is just the begining.  Of course a correction will happen later.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> True Nun, however say you've got your gold, and Mr burns has his pallets of canned baked beans. When the food supply starts to dry up, whats going to be worth more to people? How much will Mr burns sell you 100 cans for? 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 ounce?
> 
> I hope the the above scenario hopefully never prevails, but it leads back to the original post by gfresh - _Holding physical gold to me seems a bit untested as to whether it would have absolutely any saving grace in the modern system if things truly collapsed._
> 
> Open to discussion.




will swap my oz of gold for a nice lookin cow and burnsy can eat his beans while i enjoy my steak 

in all seriousness tho IF buying pallets of beans etc etc will make one feel more prepared and comfortable . fair enough , each to there own


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## johnnyg (17 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> will swap my oz of gold for a nice lookin cow and burnsy can eat his beans while i enjoy my steak




So your willing to trade your ounce of gold (worth roughly $1500 AUD today) for 1 steer which are currently selling between $600-800?


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## electronicmaster (17 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> will swap my oz of gold for a nice lookin cow and burnsy can eat his beans while i enjoy my steak
> 
> in all seriousness tho IF buying pallets of beans etc etc will make one feel more prepared and comfortable . fair enough , each to there own




It depends if you want to be in the cash sector, or the bater sector.

I'm ready for hyperinflation.  Even if it does not "get" that bad,  I can still sell my goods and make a small profit.


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## nunthewiser (17 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> So your willing to trade your ounce of gold (worth roughly $1500 AUD today) for 1 steer which are currently selling between $600-800?




was being hypothetical actually 

goodness me ....... will stick to goats


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## 2BAD4U (17 February 2009)

Hey MrBurns, I've been looking at this lately too.

I think it's just a case of do you trust the WA Governments 100% backing.  Essentially, for you to lose your money (gold) the Government would have to go broke.  Some people just don't trust Governments that much.

I'm going for the unallocated.

This from the Perth Mint FAQ section:

*If unallocated is on the balance sheet, doesn't that mean I am exposed if the Mint becomes insolvent?*
_Correct.  However, as The Perth Mint is wholly owned by the Government of Western Australia and operates under an explicit Government Guarantee, your exposure is actually to the Government's solvency.  Perth Mint Depository clients ultimately accept a sovereign risk exposure to the State of Western Australia._


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

2BAD4U said:


> Hey MrBurns, I've been looking at this lately too.
> 
> I think it's just a case of do you trust the WA Governments 100% backing.  Essentially, for you to lose your money (gold) the Government would have to go broke.  Some people just don't trust Governments that much.
> 
> ...




Interesting, I was told they back every unallocated order with physical gold they keep on site and you can actually go pick it up if you want, and pay a fee.


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## freddy2 (17 February 2009)

johnnyg said:


> I too think about this point. In an apocalyptic event hypothetically what would people look to for value? Hell you might be better off buying a couple pallets of long life canned baked beans and use them to trade for things your after.




Don't forget guns too. You think the vast majority of people who aren't holding gold or food are going to starve while the small majority of gold bugs/nuts happily go about saying "We told you so". 

I just can't see if things really collapse to the point of money being valueless that holding gold/food/whatever is going to make any difference at all.


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## sinner (17 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Interesting, I was told they back every unallocated order with physical gold they keep on site and you can actually go pick it up if you want, and pay a fee.




I really wish you would do some research. This is the second buying gold thread you've started for which several threads already exist.

They do not back it with physical gold you can go "pick up", unallocated gold is just that. There is no gold allocated to you. The only guarantee is that the mint will buy more processed ore from miners and convert it to bullion. If you want your gold tomorrow you will have to pay a *fabrication* fee and wait till its made. At current production rates and demand you will be waiting in line for months unless you want a single 400-oz LBMA compliant bar or redemption in AUD.

If you just want somewhere to park your cash so it goes up in value, why don't you (and 2BAD4U) just buy ZAUWBA on the ASX? These are warrants backed by an instrument (100 ZAUWBA = 1 oz of allocated gold). As long as you are willing to assume there aren't more ZAUWBAs than there is gold, this is cheaper than PM certs, which like I said already, are more a cash cow for international exposure and are ALLOCATED.

If you are actually worried about the counterparty risk of your capital then not holding some physical is a bit silly.

Saying all of this again, for the third or fourth time.


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## MrBurns (17 February 2009)

sinner said:


> I really wish you would do some research. This is the second buying gold thread you've started for which several threads already exist.
> 
> They do not back it with physical gold you can go "pick up", unallocated gold is just that. There is no gold allocated to you. The only guarantee is that the mint will buy more processed ore from miners and convert it to bullion. If you want your gold tomorrow you will have to pay a *fabrication* fee and wait till its made. At current production rates and demand you will be waiting in line for months unless you want a single 400-oz LBMA compliant bar or redemption in AUD.
> 
> ...





Threads disappear after a while , after going back a number of pages it's just easier to start a new one, no one else seems to mind it's rolling along rather nicely.

Do research ? What do you think this thread is for ?

I was told different by Perth Mint today, you're probably right and I would check it again before I did anything anyway.

The amount of physical gold required to be worthwhile or make a difference would be too much to hold at home.


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## Glen48 (17 February 2009)

A mob had a add in the Courier Mail two full pages looking to buy Gold @ ....5.50 per gram
Nice mark up considering one web site suggests it's worth 30USD  a gram and that was about $850USD  an OZ.


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## 2BAD4U (17 February 2009)

What about capital gains tax? Does one form of buying gold attract CGT and not the other?


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## GreatPig (18 February 2009)

freddy2 said:


> I just can't see if things really collapse to the point of money being valueless that holding gold/food/whatever is going to make any difference at all.



Yeah, holding silver would be better. At least you can make bullets from it.

Hi ho Silver!

GP


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## krk004 (18 February 2009)

This link may (or may not) help;

http://www.perthmint.com.au/investment_invest_in_gold_storage_options.aspx


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## Bron Suchecki (18 February 2009)

Seems to be a bit of confusion with what the Perth Mint offers, probably not a good reflection on our website. Summary:

Depository Services - brokerage/bank account style facility under which you can purchase gold held either allocated or unallocated
Certificate Program - certificated based facility under which you can purchase gold held either allocated or unallocated
ASX: ZAUWBA - ASX traded structured product that is basically unallocated gold

To be clear on unallocated, when we sell that to a client, we immediately buy gold. We have no exposure to the gold price as the liability (demonimated in ounces) to the client is backed by a gold asset (in ounces).

Mention was made of ASX:GOLD. Note that it attracts a 0.39% management fee compared to ZAUWBA's 0.15%. Plus GOLD's prospectus states:

_The Custodian has no obligation to insure such Bullion against loss, theft or damage and the Issuer does not intend to insure against such risks. In addition, the Trustee is not responsible for ensuring that adequate insurance arrangements have been made_


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

Bron Suchecki said:


> Seems to be a bit of confusion with what the Perth Mint offers, probably not a good reflection on our website. Summary:
> 
> Depository Services - brokerage/bank account style facility under which you can purchase gold held either allocated or unallocated
> Certificate Program - certificated based facility under which you can purchase gold held either allocated or unallocated
> ...




Hi Bron,

So in simple terms, unallocated gold is backed by physical gold that you hold ?

I can pick it up at any time by paying a fee ?

What is the waiting period ?

Thanks................


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## Bron Suchecki (18 February 2009)

If you have to wait depends on the product, coins should be OK. The Mint is running 24/6 because physical demand is so high so this does put some pressure on operations, but unallocated collections will take priority over walk-in buyers as we have an obligation to existing clients.

Bars are a different story as they are made by AGR Matthey and while the Mint has a 40% interest in that business, it is a standalone entity that makes it own decisions regarding supply as it make decisions based on its own objectives and in the interests of all owners. Therefore we can't tell it to give us bars to give to you ASAP if they have already made other supply committments.


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

Bron Suchecki said:


> If you have to wait depends on the product, coins should be OK. The Mint is running 24/6 because physical demand is so high so this does put some pressure on operations, but unallocated collections will take priority over walk-in buyers as we have an obligation to existing clients.
> 
> Bars are a different story as they are made by AGR Matthey and while the Mint has a 40% interest in that business, it is a standalone entity that makes it own decisions regarding supply as it make decisions based on its own objectives and in the interests of all owners. Therefore we can't tell it to give us bars to give to you ASAP if they have already made other supply committments.





Aha I thought the mint had the physical gold to back the unallocated purchases.
Thanks for clarifying.


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## Bron Suchecki (18 February 2009)

Yes it does, the backing is in forms of gold that are not necessarily ready for delivery. For example, granules, rolled sheets, blank discs. Indeed, the unallocated liabilities could be backed by heaps of 1oz coins but if you request 1oz bars, the answer will be, sorry don't have any, you will have to wait while we melt 1oz coins and make them into bars.

If a bank held 10 x $100 notes against your $1000 deposit and you walked in an wanted $20 notes, you wouldn't be able to get them. That doesn't mean your deposit isn't backed.


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## Ageo (18 February 2009)

A $2-3000 fireproof safe is big,strong and safe enough to protect a ****load of gold (millions worth). So im not sure why people would leave it at a bullion house (even it they say its backed).


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## Bron Suchecki (18 February 2009)

That is probably the very reason our factory is running 24/6!

Around 80% of people who hold metal with the Mint are overseas, mostly US as they are worried about confiscation or having metal in a relatively more safer location.


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

Bron Suchecki said:


> Yes it does, the backing is in forms of gold that are not necessarily ready for delivery. For example, granules, rolled sheets, blank discs. Indeed, the unallocated liabilities could be backed by heaps of 1oz coins but if you request 1oz bars, the answer will be, sorry don't have any, you will have to wait while we melt 1oz coins and make them into bars.
> 
> If a bank held 10 x $100 notes against your $1000 deposit and you walked in an wanted $20 notes, you wouldn't be able to get them. That doesn't mean your deposit isn't backed.




So I could take bars or coins depending what you had on hand, or wait til you prepared what I wanted, but there is no risk that you wont be able to deliver ???


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

Ageo said:


> A $2-3000 fireproof safe is big,strong and safe enough to protect a ****load of gold (millions worth). So im not sure why people would leave it at a bullion house (even it they say its backed).




I guess someone could just take the safe and blow it up later while you were bound and gagged in a cupboard. (if you're lucky)


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## Ageo (18 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I guess someone could just take the safe and blow it up later while you were bound and gagged in a cupboard. (if you're lucky)




Thats where insurance comes in, remember there is more chance a bullion house wont deliver on your gold then someone blowing up a 3 tonne safe.

But then again thats just my experience


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## Bron Suchecki (18 February 2009)

There is always risk. Non delivery as opposed to delayed delivery would mean that the Mint management doesn't have the metal, because it didn't use your money to buy gold but did something else with it. But as the WA government guarantees the debts of the Mint, it would have to make good the loss and buy the missing gold, so I suppose non delivery is really a question of whether you think the WA government will default on it obligations to back the Mint (which also means it isn't keeping a good eye on what the Mint is doing to allow it to get in that situation in the first place).

All gold involves risk. Whether it is personal or with someone else, you have risk of theft. When it is with someone else you have risk the custodian steals it. Storing it as allocated won't change that risk. It is ulitmately about how much you trust your custodian versus holding it personally.

If you do hold it personally, I certainly would not be having it delivered to you (records at both the seller and courier company) and would pick it up and do transactions under any reporting/identification levels. Plus go around telling everyone what a crap investment gold is, so they don't think you would have any.


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

Bron Suchecki said:


> There is always risk. Non delivery as opposed to delayed delivery would mean that the Mint management doesn't have the metal, because it didn't use your money to buy gold but did something else with it. But as the WA government guarantees the debts of the Mint, it would have to make good the loss and buy the missing gold, so I suppose non delivery is really a question of whether you think the WA government will default on it obligations to back the Mint (which also means it isn't keeping a good eye on what the Mint is doing to allow it to get in that situation in the first place).
> 
> All gold involves risk. Whether it is personal or with someone else, you have risk of theft. When it is with someone else you have risk the custodian steals it. Storing it as allocated won't change that risk. It is ulitmately about how much you trust your custodian versus holding it personally.
> 
> If you do hold it personally, I certainly would not be having it delivered to you (records at both the seller and courier company) and would pick it up and do transactions under any reporting/identification levels. Plus go around telling everyone what a crap investment gold is, so they don't think you would have any.




Thanks for helping out here Bron


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## nunthewiser (18 February 2009)

LOL wheres my thanks darl?
i said a lot of the same stuff 

even added extra creative words man! 

i feel violated

yeah cheers bron  nice to see knowledgable answers with correct spelling


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> LOL wheres my thanks darl?
> i said a lot of the same stuff
> 
> even added extra creative words man!
> ...




Employees of the Perth Mint get thanked, transexual cross dressers with a Nun fetish are already rewarded with their lifes preferences, see you feel violated, how good's that


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## nunthewiser (18 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Employees of the Perth Mint get thanked, transexual cross dressers with a Nun fetish are already rewarded with their lifes preferences, see you feel violated, how good's that




hahahahahahahah


amen


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> hahahahahahahah
> 
> 
> amen




Gee I was hot there for a minute wasn't I


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## explod (18 February 2009)

Bron Suchecki said:


> When it is with someone else you have risk the custodian steals it. Storing it as allocated won't change that risk. It is ulitmately about how much you trust your custodian versus holding it personally.




Our vault is underground with one of the big four banks.   We have a different key to the custodian.   It takes both their key and our key (both different) to be entered simultaniously (two locks) and turned together.  On top of that their is a code kept elsewhere just to get into the place as well as personal identification and signatures .  That code is unkown to us as we keep it with another trusted member of the family.    I understand that this is fairly standard proceedure.

I do not think the risk is too great.   Tell me if there are any holes and I will ring Maxwel Smart for an upgrade.


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

explod said:


> Our vault is underground with one of the big four banks.   We have a different key to the custodian.   It takes both their key and our key (both different) to be entered simultaniously (two locks) and turned together.  On top of that their is a code kept elsewhere just to get into the place as well as personal identification and signatures .  That code is unkown to us as we keep it with another trusted member of the family.    I understand that this is fairly standard proceedure.
> 
> I do not think the risk is too great.   Tell me if there are any holes and I will ring Maxwel Smart for an upgrade.




I'm interested in that, would that be at head office in the city ? in your case Melbourne.
You put YOUR vault in there ? or is it a safety deposit box......


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## explod (18 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm interested in that, would that be at head office in the city ? in your case Melbourne.
> You put YOUR vault in there ? or is it a safety deposit box......




Heavy steel saftey deposit box.   Had to go into the rigmarole to comply with Super Regs but would do it in all cases from what is coming through now.   I think most of the central banks in regional areas have this type of storage.  I know Frankston does.


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

explod said:


> Heavy steel saftey deposit box.   Had to go into the rigmarole to comply with Super Regs but would do it in all cases from what is coming through now.   I think most of the central banks in regional areas have this type of storage.  I know Frankston does.




Is that the banks box or yours, I had to supply my own they place it somewhere and get it out when i need to access it. So the heavy steel box yours or provided by the bank ?

Thanks....


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## explod (18 February 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Is that the banks box or yours, I had to supply my own they place it somewhere and get it out when i need to access it. So the heavy steel box yours or provided by the bank ?
> 
> Thanks....




Thier box but can only be accessed with me present.


       ........................................................................................................................................


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## MrBurns (18 February 2009)

explod said:


> Thier box but can only be accessed with me present. .......................................................................................................................................




Ok thanks for that


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## burglar (12 November 2014)

I paid a visit to the Perth Mint!!

$19 for a guided tour ...

At first I thought, "What the hell, it will pass the time. 
And there is no other place like it, in Australia."

Turns out to be the best money I had spent in W.A..

The guide was brilliant.
The content was of interest.

And it passed the time ... a lot of time.







The young lady in the Cafe makes a lovely Devonshire Tea.


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## Dona Ferentes (16 August 2020)

The Perth Mint ETF, _*PMGOLD *_holdings increase by more than 60% in 2020, with the current market value of AUD 597.6 million.


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## Garpal Gumnut (16 August 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> The Perth Mint ETF, _*PMGOLD *_holdings increase by more than 60% in 2020, with the current market value of AUD 597.6 million.



Is that all.

It doesn't really sound like much. I do hope they pick the right derivatives as we progress through the Pestilence .

gg


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## Dona Ferentes (16 August 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Is that all.
> 
> It doesn't really sound like much. I do hope they pick the right derivatives as we progress through the Pestilence .
> 
> gg



Prior to your forthcoming peregrination, why don't you buy a few Troy Oz and then turn up at their front door, and test the claim; *PMGOLD units can be redeemed for physical gold from The Perth Mint*.


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## Dona Ferentes (7 January 2021)

PMGOLD saw inflows of more than 70% in the first 11 months of 2020, with much of this demand driven by SMSF trustees

_Jordan Eliseo, The Perth Mint _


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## SirRumpole (19 September 2022)

The Perth Mint is being investigated for alleged breaches of transactions standards.









						The financial crimes watchdog is investigating the Perth Mint. That could be bad news for all West Australians
					

The Perth Mint is the world's largest producer of newly mined gold and turns over $26 billion a year — and now it's in the crosshairs of Australia's financial regulator.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The Perth Mint is being investigated for alleged breaches of transactions standards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is old news. 

ASIC vs WA , who do you reckon will win. 

ASIC can't even get convicted crooks just let out of jail before they flee overseas. 

gg


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