# Fatso



## BradK (22 June 2012)

Sam from SMH has some pretty strong things to say about comments about, toward fat people. 


http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/culture/blogs/all-men-are-liars/fatso-20120620-20o3v.html


Thoughts? 
Brad

Disclosure: Probably carrying 12kg that I need to get rid of to be honest


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## qldfrog (22 June 2012)

BradK said:


> Sam from SMH has some pretty strong things to say about comments about, toward fat people.
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/culture/blogs/all-men-are-liars/fatso-20120620-20o3v.html
> ...




hum, can not help to think how easy it is to actually loose weight, 
Got wrong blood test (too high cholesterol)-> stopped eating the extra chocolate bar/piece of cheese between meals, lost 5 kg in 6 month; yes I eat chocolate but half the size of an overweight colleague of mine, my plates are easily half sized as well.
Reality hurts but eat less and you will loose weight. I am afraid it is that easy ..but not PC to say anymore...'cause everyone is special and deserve a snack/chocolate bar..must be true,TV's ads tells me it is...
anyway, just to throw some oil on the fire


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## springhill (22 June 2012)

It's a pretty simple equation in my eyes. Calories in v calories out.
The rest is just excuses.
One of my ex's mothers was literally the size of a house. She used to blame her bi-polar disorder.
I thought this may be plausible, until I saw what she ate each day. In a word crap, not a carrot to be seen.
They bought her a treadmill, which she swore black and blue she would use. It made a mightly fine paperweight.

I have an aunty who is the same, she comes over for afternoon tea sometimes. The thing is she makes a big song and dance about just having 'a little piece of cake', you can set your watch by it. Unfortunately for her she doesn't just have 1 'little piece', she has 6 of them. You do the math.

Sometimes I put on a few extra, but i know exactly how to drop them. Put away the pop rocks chocolate and the doritos. The weight falls off. Lucky i have a physical job i guess, some people dont, but thats not an excuse to do physical movement at some stage of the day.

I guess the equation should be

Calories In   x (Motivation + Willpower)
                   Calories Out x Excuses

 If your equation works out to be less than 1, then you're probably overweight.

I will probably get pilloried for being a simpleton, sometimes the truth hurts.


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## burglar (22 June 2012)

springhill said:


> ...
> 
> I will probably get pilloried for being a simpleton, sometimes the truth hurts.




"Calories In" is mechanical motion of one arm!
"Motivation" is a mental thing ...
Not so simple afterall!
Consider yourself pilloried!! :frown:

P.S. Sunshine, exercise plus fruit and vegetables.
(fruitgrowers get an edge)

PPS I am holding (about 13 Kilos extra)!


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## sptrawler (22 June 2012)

Unfortunately people tend to blame weight gain on an underactive thyroid, instead of an overactive stomach.
I have also heard people say fat is inherited, I wonder how many pizza's were left to them.


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## springhill (22 June 2012)

burglar said:


> "Calories In" is mechanical motion of one arm!
> "Motivation" is a mental thing ...
> Not so simple afterall!
> Consider yourself pilloried!! :frown:
> ...




That mechanical motion of the arm is controlled by a mental process, the need, or
more likely 'want' of food. No mechanical process of the body happens without a mental trigger, whether concious or subconcious.

Too much fructose is no good for you either, its a great way to gain weight!


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## Timmy (22 June 2012)

BradK said:


> Sam from SMH has some pretty strong things to say about comments about, toward fat people.
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/culture/blogs/all-men-are-liars/fatso-20120620-20o3v.html
> ...




If theres gonna-be-a-pillorying may as well set myself for it too.

Restrict intake of carbohydrates to 20 grams a day (cut out rice, pasta, grains, potatoes, sugar & sweets, alcohol - stuff with lots of carbs).
Eat stuff that doesn't have/is low in carbs (meat, fish, eggs, salad greens, there are more) until you're not hungry. Avoid processed foods that are advertised as 'low carb', can experiment with these later. 
Worked (and continues to work) for me. 
If in doubt, do it for a month as an experiment. You will feel like **** after about 4-5 days (forewarned is forearmed). This will pass.
If you do this for a month and you haven't lost loads of excess fat, I'll eat my (low-carb) hat.

GL.


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## Joules MM1 (22 June 2012)

Timmy said:


> If theres gonna-be-a-pillorying may as well set myself for it too.
> 
> Restrict intake of carbohydrates to 20 grams a day (cut out rice, pasta, grains, potatoes, sugar & sweets, alcohol - stuff with lots of carbs).
> Eat stuff that doesn't have/is low in carbs (meat, fish, eggs, salad greens, there are more) until you're not hungry. Avoid processed foods that are advertised as 'low carb', can experiment with these later.
> ...




timmy....you know the saying there's myriad of things....well, there's a pilloriad of things wrong with that "diet".....

first, you need carbs eaten at the time you dont eat meats/proteins (stops bloating by enzymes not competing with acids - steaks and beer cause bloats)

secondly the crap feeling you get is the body accommodating the loss of energy.......to re-level itself the body takes the muscle value and literally eats the protein into instant energy availablity via glucos conversion whcih youve starved it from with withdrawal of carbs that normally provide the energy......this is the reason you look fitter but are actually worse off because youve lost muscle and not fat, losing weight means muscle weight which is heavier that fat

here's my healthy standard: keep fat intake below 30g / day (my body needs/uses somewhere around 55-60 g / day even if i'm asleep) so obviously, depleting fat that goes to fat must mean i'm burning fat without even beginning any workout......

also understand how the body opens fat cells when under heavy work outs that are non-aerobic, in other words, you'll get better results walking for a hard mile first thing in the morning than sprinting the same distance at night.......first thing, carb sugers/glucose are low, so youre body opens fat cells to convert the energy but can only do this if the blood oxygen level is correct.....hard marching style will work as effectively if not better than running......

things that resemble the Atkins method or similar "diet" is dangerous in the way it causes blood to be in an over-acidity or over-akaline state.....these things can lead to allow cancers to find ideal working conditions.....

carbs are over stated as a reason for fat gain.......there is a huge diff between raw foods cooked and non-cooked and how they allow carbs to become avail......but, still, you have to eat a truck load of carbs to get fat......they have to be cooked or processed carbs to be diff to raw foods.....show me a person whom eats raw foods as a regular way of eating, that is fat, and i'll eat my balanced dietary hat (HP sauce and some cayanne pepper please)

as i like to say; it's the fat that makes you fat, well, duh!


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## Joules MM1 (22 June 2012)

on the exercise front, when i had put on an extra couple of inches during a heavy bbq summer i found riding late at night for 12-15k's 3 days a week was a good stretch and it's melbourne so one has to go a long way to find a gradient to work on  ......but the main idea was to not eat 4 hours before the ride to get best results.......after i worked my way to 30k's just two days a week regularly i found that i could do that with less effort and improve times without adding any energy to my intake......the key is to not intake any foods 4 hours prior especially no sugars.......

ba-ba-balance

aside from water everything you put in your body has energy


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## Calliope (22 June 2012)

*Not another diet thread!!!* We alread thave two threads on *Weight Loss *and two threads on *obesity* and sundry others on health.

I think Brad intended this thread to be about our *attitudes * to obesity.


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## Timmy (22 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> *Not another diet thread!!!* We alread thave two threads on *Weight Loss *and two threads on *obesity* and sundry others on health.
> 
> I think Brad intended this thread to be about our *attitudes * to obesity.




Yikes! I withdraw my remarks


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## Smurf1976 (22 June 2012)

Some people do have legitimate medical problems which make it very hard for them to avoid weight gain. That's not the majority, but some people do have such issues and it would be wrong to discriminate against them and say that losing weight is easy etc.

But one observation that will probably touch a few nerves... How many people have a negative attitude toward those who are overweight? The answer seems to be "quite a few".

Now how many of those same people binge drink? That's a very easily avoidable cause of all sorts of health problems and yet many people, including those who moan about those who are overweight etc, choose to do it.

Most people could maintain a healthy weight with sufficient motivation that is true. All people could avoid excess alcohol with sufficient motivation.

I'm not obese and I'm not against alcohol. But I do see a degree of hypocrisy in these debates.


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## young-gun (22 June 2012)

springhill said:


> It's a pretty simple equation in my eyes. Calories in v calories out.
> The rest is just excuses.



++++11111

1600 in, 1800 or more out = weight loss. hang on, im confused.


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## Julia (22 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Some people do have legitimate medical problems which make it very hard for them to avoid weight gain. That's not the majority, but some people do have such issues and it would be wrong to discriminate against them and say that losing weight is easy etc.
> 
> But one observation that will probably touch a few nerves... How many people have a negative attitude toward those who are overweight? The answer seems to be "quite a few".
> 
> ...



The above post seems quite out of character for you, Smurf.  I can't see any reason to suppose people who are critical of obesity would binge drink.

Imo it would be the opposite.   Someone who takes care to maximise their health by keeping their weight in a healthy range would surely be unlikely to rack up all those extra calories by drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.

It seems to me that being fat will soon be the new normal.  Once an obese person stood out, but now a slim, fit person is more unusual, at least where I live.

I was in a group of 12 people yesterday and only three of us were not grossly overweight.

The more widespread obesity becomes surely it will follow that there is less impetus for such people to make the effort to lose weight because they'll look around and reassure themselves that there's nothing unusual about their weight.

I get pretty disgusted with people who say "oh I don't eat much" but then chomp through six pieces of cake just for afternoon tea.

So if the topic is 'attitudes to obesity', I guess mine is impatience and intolerance when there's so much information about as to healthy foods.   Just as we increasingly seem to blame others for pretty much everything that goes wrong in our lives, it's my guess that the obese have little difficulty in extending this to their weight.


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## Joules MM1 (22 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> *Not another diet thread!!!* We alread thave two threads on *Weight Loss *and two threads on *obesity* and sundry others on health.
> 
> I think Brad intended this thread to be about our *attitudes * to obesity.




my attitude towards obesity is to get my own health correct rather than preaching to others what they should/could/would do.....and to that end, correct knowledge and passing on that knowledge is an attitude rather than ad infintum blubbering and blundering on about attitudes......

an obese person is simply obese.....doesnt require an attitude......for most people ignorance is what keeps them obese in the same way that overtly thin people need to keep thin.......

damn......just developed an attitude


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## young-gun (22 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> *Not another diet thread!!!* We alread thave two threads on *Weight Loss *and two threads on *obesity* and sundry others on health.
> 
> I think Brad intended this thread to be about our *attitudes * to obesity.




Thanks for clarifying, my opinion (unless the person has a legitimate medical illness/implication as to why they are over-weight) is that no one has any excuse for allowing themselves to get in such a situation. Do these people have no pride? Aren't they embarrassed walking down the street beside their spouse, friends, or family?

If I looked in the mirror every morning and saw someone overweight I would be deeply ashamed. I'm flat out every week and I still manage to take the time to ensure I am eating nothing but healthy food, fruits, vegetables, fish, meats, water the lot, with perhaps 1 chocolate a week if I'm lucky. Overweight people seem to find the gym daunting, but the only reason the people inside are looking good is because they are in the gym

I understand they may be depressed, but being over-weight certainly doesn't help depression, in fact I'd say quite the opposite. Get the help you need, or simply help yourself get out of the rut you're in. If you take comfort in eating **** food and feel good while doing it, imagine how great they would feel if they ate healthy, looked good and felt good. There is no excuse what-so-ever imo.


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## Calliope (22 June 2012)

When I was a boy, fat people and were were a small minority and thus more conspicuous, hence the popularity of Billy Bunter lampooning.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=b...QXFlNCNCw&sqi=2&ved=0CGsQsAQ&biw=1365&bih=646


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## Tink (22 June 2012)

I think what Smurf is trying to say, is why isnt there the same negative attitude towards binge drinking?


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## Joules MM1 (22 June 2012)

Tink said:


> I think what Smurf is trying to say, is why isnt there the same negative attitude towards binge drinking?




that's a good question.....most likely the answer is in the history books.....obesity from an Australian perspective is a relatively recent thing whereas binging and intoxication is inbedded in the culture from ship days......the work hard play hard ethic of drinking is also encouraged by governments via tax (in its extent) .....even tho most men develop obesity in later life as they drink and eat more yet much less physical work loads the obesity in young people is a reflection of the credit binge we've been through - even Babylon would have seen the same stuff....


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## young-gun (22 June 2012)

Tink said:


> I think what Smurf is trying to say, is why isnt there the same negative attitude towards binge drinking?




If this is so it's a terrible comparison, and don't most have a negative attitude towards binge drinking anyway? youth out of control is forever a highlight with Tracey Grimshaw and her brilliant journalism. I can only assume it's because the broader public that indulge in her half hour want to see it, and gasp over how drunk some 18 year old girl is.

Thing is, you're fat 24/7, you're only drunk for maybe 12 hours(or 24 depending on just how much you wish to partay). I'm not saying binge drinking is healthy, and not condoning it, but i would much rather have a few too many drinks with my mates once every couple of months than be overweight and not do anything about it.


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## burglar (22 June 2012)

BradK said:


> Sam from SMH has some pretty strong things to say about comments about, toward fat people.
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/culture/blogs/all-men-are-liars/fatso-20120620-20o3v.html




I have now read the OP's link!

Now, I wish pull my previous post in which I declared my excess holdings!!


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## Boggo (22 June 2012)

There may be some advantages


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## johenmo (22 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> Thanks for clarifying, my opinion (unless the person has a legitimate medical illness/implication as to why they are over-weight) is that no one has any excuse for allowing themselves to get in such a situation. Do these people have no pride? Aren't they embarrassed walking down the street beside their spouse, friends, or family?
> 
> If I looked in the mirror every morning and saw someone overweight I would be deeply ashamed. I'm flat out every week and I still manage to take the time to ensure I am eating nothing but healthy food, fruits, vegetables, fish, meats, water the lot, with perhaps 1 chocolate a week if I'm lucky. Overweight people seem to find the gym daunting, but the only reason the people inside are looking good is because they are in the gym
> 
> I understand they may be depressed, but being over-weight certainly doesn't help depression, in fact I'd say quite the opposite. Get the help you need, or simply help yourself get out of the rut you're in. If you take comfort in eating **** food and feel good while doing it, imagine how great they would feel if they ate healthy, looked good and felt good. There is no excuse what-so-ever imo.




Over eating isn't as simple for many people as you lot seem to think (a comment to get it started!!). My first thought reading a lot of the above is "%^&* me!".  It's like saying "Do you feel suicidal?  Then think happy thoughts!" or "Got a gambling addiction? Stop spending money" and claiming the job's done.  Disclosure re weight: I have the opposite problem - keeping weight on and as such have been a keen observer of eating habits.

The reasons are usual more than one and varied.  For many it is all about attitude about one's self, whether that be depression or any other mental condition.  The same people can often be found to lack motivation or will power in/towards non-food activities.  So they don't go to a gym.  People seek comfort via food (as some seek love through sexual encounters).  Then they gain weight and feel worse, and the downward cycle continues.  Like alcohol, other drugs, gambling, etc..  The shame and lack of motivation causes them to not seek help. And the cycle deepens.  

They don't go to the gym because next to the fit people they feel worse.  And not every huge person who loses weight ends up with tight, taut, trim skin.  More than you think will be left with saggy/flappy folds, which they also hate.

Don't get me wrong - i too get frustrated when people who shouldn't do go back for second helpings or have bigger than the rest portions.  At unit I saw young ladies who were watching their weight and wouldn't have a proper lunch but would have coffee and a piece of cake instead.  Didn't understand the mental side of it then.

I have been living with someone who will gain weight if they eat what I eat and the quantity I eat, and I have been on a careful diet for 20+ years re fat, etc.  That is part of the reason I have trouble keeping it on.  So they have to consume a lesser amount of  "nothing but healthy food, fruits, vegetables, fish, meats, water the lot" than me.  A different metabolism for sure.This gets to them and then they get sick of being envious of what our guinea pigs get to eat and will eat more than they should.  Which doesn't help her depression.

Another group that eats the wrong food is the poorer part of society.  As I remarked in another thread, people like to be rewarded and reward themselves.  And since the Gucci gear, holidays, more expensive items are out of reach, they reward themselves with food.  Food marketers know this and use this information.   Including super-sizing containers.  And it's the calorie-laden food that is cheap and feeds any sugar addiction they may have developed.  

I suspect most people who contribute to this forum are reasonably motivated, and hence would find it easier to seek help or break any cycle.  My apologies to those who don't fit that description.....  And most people seem to need a mentor/teacher/helper to achieve in life.


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## qldfrog (22 June 2012)

Julia said:


> The above post seems quite out of character for you, Smurf.  I can't see any reason to suppose people who are critical of obesity would binge drink.
> 
> Imo it would be the opposite.   Someone who takes care to maximise their health by keeping their weight in a healthy range would surely be unlikely to rack up all those extra calories by drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.
> .



+ 1 there: fat and alcohol /beer do get very well together is I observe my colleagues
I drink socially but in moderation and never in binging session: what is the point???


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## Smurf1976 (22 June 2012)

Julia said:


> The above post seems quite out of character for you, Smurf.  I can't see any reason to suppose people who are critical of obesity would binge drink.
> 
> Imo it would be the opposite.   Someone who takes care to maximise their health by keeping their weight in a healthy range would surely be unlikely to rack up all those extra calories by drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.
> 
> It seems to me that being fat will soon be the new normal.



According to everything I've seen and read on the subject, a substantial proportion of Australian society _does_ binge drink and does so often enough to be a health concern. It's not just youth and it's not just a few people here and there. It is widespread from the late teens to people in their 50's (see link below as my source).

In other words, binge drinking has become common to the point of being "normal" in Australian society.

My point is that if we're going to worry about those who are overweight then why not also worry about those who binge drink or engage in other unhealthy practices?

How many people on this forum can honestly say they never drink to excess? My life experience to date tells me that the majority of Australian adults do from time to time, and a quick Google search finds data that somewhere around one fifth of Australian adults do it weekly. That's a lot more than the stereotypical 20's age group and it's a health disaster in the making just like obesity and smoking. http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com...ge-drinking-alcohol-intoxication-disorder/131

I just get the impression that it has become socially acceptable to target the obese and, of course, those dreaded smokers whilst alcohol abuse is largely ignored.


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## Smurf1976 (22 June 2012)

Tink said:


> I think what Smurf is trying to say, is why isnt there the same negative attitude towards binge drinking?



Exactly. It's a significant health problem, and one that appears to be increasing and yet hardly a word is said.


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## CanOz (22 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> I just get the impression that it has become socially acceptable to target the obese and, of course, those dreaded smokers whilst alcohol abuse is largely ignored.




Alcohol abuse, such as binge drinking...is still largely socially acceptable...almost part of Australian culture, from my view! hic...:alcohol:

Until it becomes something that is frowned upon like smoking, then i doubt it will change.

I must say, i love a drink too! Especially on a Friday night:drink:! I have no problem going long periods without a beer or wine though, and my weight loss is quite apparent. 

I can't party like i used to though....it just hurts too much now...

CanOz


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## Calliope (22 June 2012)

CanOz said:


> Alcohol abuse, such as binge drinking...is still largely socially acceptable...almost part of Australian culture, from my view! hic...:alcohol:
> 
> Until it becomes something that is frowned upon like smoking, then i doubt it will change.
> 
> ...




I drink a bottle of red every every night, and have done so for years. It is my reward for having survived the day. My BMI is 25, and my doctor assured me, only yesterday, that my liver is OK. This is a great country, and it produces some glorious reds with nary a headache next morning.

Cheers.


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## Julia (22 June 2012)

johenmo said:


> Over eating isn't as simple for many people as you lot seem to think .........






> Another group that eats the wrong food is the poorer part of society.  As I remarked in another thread, people like to be rewarded and reward themselves.



Then consider the value of the short term 'reward' v the long term reward.   That crap food provides pleasure for a few seconds.  Rejecting it puts the person on the way to the long term healthier body, with a consequent reduction in depression.
Vigorous exercise has in many studies been shown to be as effective as much medication in reducing depression.
Isn't that a more logical way to go than stuffing more rubbish down the throat and collapsing onto the couch in misery?


> And since the Gucci gear, holidays, more expensive items are out of reach, they reward themselves with food.  Food marketers know this and use this information.   Including super-sizing containers.



It's still a matter of personal choice to eat good food in smaller quantities or to binge on rubbish.  For heaven's sake, we can see the super sized containers.  Surely it's utterly obvious that the super sized containers hold an excessive amount of food?

Children can figure this out at about age three.

Despite your post above, Johenmo, being  long and thoughtful , my reaction is still that we all as individuals have a responsibility for our own health, and all the sympathy about 'comfort eating' etc is misplaced.

Who says obese people are disadvantaged because, on account of their being fat, they are too embarrassed to go to a gym?  I've never been to a gym in my life because I prefer to walk/run with my dog and swim daily.
Can't actually think of anything worse than pumping on some machine along with sweaty people when I could be out in the fresh air enjoying the scenery.

Everything worthwhile takes personal effort.   
At some stage fat people have to say to themselves:  how much do I want to be healthy and look reasonable?
If they really do, then they have to make the same decision as the rest of us to avoid crap food and eat lots of vegetables, some protein and minimal carbohydrate, along with plenty of exercise.
Yes, they will actually be required to exhibit some self discipline.  Just get on with it and stop making excuses.


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## Julia (22 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> How many people on this forum can honestly say they never drink to excess?



I'll put my hand up.  Two glasses of wine every evening.  Don't want any more.
I have certainly had nights of drinking excessively when young and silly.  Rarely though.  The next day was enough to cure me of that.



> My life experience to date tells me that the majority of Australian adults do from time to time, and a quick Google search finds data that somewhere around one fifth of Australian adults do it weekly. That's a lot more than the stereotypical 20's age group and it's a health disaster in the making just like obesity and smoking.
> 
> I just get the impression that it has become socially acceptable to target the obese and, of course, those dreaded smokers whilst alcohol abuse is largely ignored.




How about all the fuss a couple of years ago which precluded the alcopops tax?   This was all about a massive government and community concern that our teenagers were apparently without exception drunken sots at 13 due entirely to their binge level consumption of these pre mixed drinks.  So whacko, on goes a tax on this product.  What happened?  The kids just acquired bottles of spirits instead and mixed their own usually much stronger drinks with soft drinks from the supermarket.

The government, however, pronounced the reduced sale of the premixed product a brilliant success and claimed a major milestone in showing young people what not to do.
What rubbish!

Perhaps it depends where you source your conclusions.  I'm a pretty avid listener to ABC Radio, both Radio National and the Local Network.  There are on both networks heaps of programs on binge drinking to the point that I turn it off.  Much less on obesity.
I don't personally know anyone who drinks excessively.  Do know quite a few who don't drink at all.

If it's something you feel strongly about, Smurf, maybe start a thread on binge drinking.
I don't think it's unreasonable that comments on this thread have related to attitudes to obesity, given that's what the OP was apparently on about.


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## Tink (22 June 2012)

I think these are all addictive behaviours -- drugs, eating, drinking, smoking.
They can all be turned around.

I can understand what Smurf was saying, pointing the finger at one, if you are doing another.


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## So_Cynical (22 June 2012)

springhill said:


> It's a pretty simple equation in my eyes. Calories in v calories out.
> The rest is just excuses.
> 
> I will probably get pilloried for being a simpleton, sometimes the truth hurts.




4 years ago i cut my calorie intake by maybe a third (stopped drinking) and started regular exercise (30 minutes a day 4 days a week) i lost maybe 3 kilos in the first 3 months and that was it...and have maintained my over weightiness since.

So yes your a simpleton  also my mum years ago had her stomach stapled...calorie intake more the halved, weight loss negligible.


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## burglar (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> 4 years ago i cut my calorie intake by maybe a third (stopped drinking) and started regular exercise (30 minutes a day 4 days a week) i lost maybe 3 kilos in the first 3 months and that was it...and have maintained my over weightiness since.
> 
> So yes your a simpleton  also my mum years ago had her stomach stapled...calorie intake more the halved, weight loss negligible.




This would suggest a huge shift in metabolic efficiency.
It is a pet theory of mine.
Your body gets less calories and decides to extract more from each bite!


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## johenmo (23 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Despite your post above, Johenmo, being  long and thoughtful , my reaction is still that we all as individuals have a responsibility for our own health, and all the sympathy about 'comfort eating' etc is misplaced.



  Agreed.  The ultimate responsibility is the individual & the sympathy is misplaced.  






Julia said:


> Then consider the value of the short term 'reward' v the long term reward.   That crap food provides pleasure for a few seconds.  Rejecting it puts the person on the way to the long term healthier body, with a consequent reduction in depression.
> Vigorous exercise has in many studies been shown to be as effective as much medication in reducing depression.
> Isn't that a more logical way to go than stuffing more rubbish down the throat and collapsing onto the couch in misery?
> .....Yes, they will actually be required to exhibit some self discipline.  Just get on with it and stop making excuses.



  I guess when talking about depression we're talking about a medical condition.  Certainly it comes in many forms.  I tend to think of depression now as chemical (there's a biochemical reason e.g genetic (and this exists) or drug abuse (I know someone who has very bad depression & psychosis (been locked away fro her own safety) & a single mum, and she also overeats) and environmental (e.g. caused by an event).  In the former case, it's bloody hard to just get up and go, hence the need for support.  In the latter case, these are the ones who can change their outlook overnight and progress.  And are probably the ones to which the thread refers.  Just don't punish the former - it's more difficult than a lot think.




Julia said:


> Who says obese people are disadvantaged because, on account of their being fat, they are too embarrassed to go to a gym?  I've never been to a gym in my life because I prefer to walk/run with my dog and swim daily.
> Can't actually think of anything worse than pumping on some machine along with sweaty people when I could be out in the fresh air enjoying the scenery.
> 
> Everything worthwhile takes personal effort.
> ...



  I didn't mean to imply they are disadvantaged, more than it's perceived as a barrier.  And perception is or becomes reality.  Been to a gym - outside is much better (except @ this time of year in victoria when it's ssoooooo cold).  And they never play the music I like.

Eaters are like smokers - when nagged about it, they move straight to the psychological crutch (food, fags).  

Food in it's many forms has never been cheaper - look at the % of the income needed to be fed over the decades and it's dropped.  The easy and bountiful access is a problem for some.  The Mayor of NYC is thinking of banning super-sized containers.  Despite personal freedom etc, sometimes people need to be saved from themselves and I think this is one of them.

I *am* more sympathetic and less judgemental than I used to be, and that influences my views.  Love the debate Julia - whilst we disagree on some finer points we seem to agree in general.  Now to binge drinking, where I am not sympathetic...


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## johenmo (23 June 2012)

Julia said:


> If it's something you feel strongly about, Smurf, maybe start a thread on binge drinking.
> I don't think it's unreasonable that comments on this thread have related to attitudes to obesity, given that's what the OP was apparently on about.




+1


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## Julia (23 June 2012)

johenmo said:


> I guess when talking about depression we're talking about a medical condition.  Certainly it comes in many forms.  I tend to think of depression now as chemical (there's a biochemical reason e.g genetic (and this exists) or drug abuse (I know someone who has very bad depression & psychosis (been locked away fro her own safety) & a single mum, and she also overeats) and environmental (e.g. caused by an event).  In the former case, it's bloody hard to just get up and go, hence the need for support.  In the latter case, these are the ones who can change their outlook overnight and progress.  And are probably the ones to which the thread refers.  Just don't punish the former - it's more difficult than a lot think.



Entirely reasonable point, johenmo.  Plus many of the antipsychotic medications do cause weight gain.
Still, the proportion of the population with psychosis is probably very small compared with those who are just lazy.

I remember an interview on, I think, the 7.30 Report, with a woman in middle age who had been obese for most of her life.  She said:  "I tried diet after diet"    "Nothing worked".  (Translation usually goes something like:
"I starved myself for five days and lost weight, then went back to overeating).

Then she developed some significant medical condition caused by her obesity and was told by the relevant medical specialist brutally:  If you do not lose weight you will die.   No question.
She accepted a referral to a dietitian and actually followed the prescribed diet.  She lost weight and her medical condition largely resolved.

She said "In the end I just  had to wake up and take responsibility for my weight".


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## johenmo (23 June 2012)

Julia - last sentence says it all.  Remember a boss saying to someone else about under performance "It's all about  whether you "wanna", and I don't see that you "wanna".

Good morning BTW - is minus something outside with a max of 8 plus rain and wind - not conducive to getting outside.   see attached... and we have rellies coming from warmer climes tomorrow!!


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## luap77 (23 June 2012)

I have consulted for a Biochemistry research team from time to time who are examining the obesity epidemic. 

My firm opinion (I don't wish to offer advice) is that weight loss is readily possible for anybody whose obesity isn't a result of an untreated underlying medical condition. 

My firm opinion (based on the data and facts I've dealt with) is that this doesn't require any exercise (though of course it won't hurt/will help), and comes down to one specific ingredient in the diet...processed SUGAR (sucrose), or in some cases foods with an inordinately high sugar content (sugar beet, honey, dates, dried fruit, or certain fruits with a high fructose content).

My firm opinion is that a person whose obesity isn't a result of an untreated underlying medical condition can lose significant body weight (in a healthy manner) by simply being absolutely thorough in eliminating ALL processed sugar intake (i.e. Zero food that has added sugar, zero fruit juice, as often high in fructose) and limiting fruit that has a high fructose content. Simple as that...for real.

A good resource for fructose content of common foods is:

http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/consumerinformation/nuttab2010/nuttab2010onlinesearchabledatabase/onlineversion.cfm?&action=nutrientFoods&category=Proximates&nutrientID=FRU

Providing processed sugar is completely avoided (as opposed to just limited/restricted), the individual can eat anything else that they'd like (though fructose intake should be restricted to less than or equal to 20g per day for adult male or female). 

My opinion of what foods should form part of a processed sugar-free  and low fructose diet leans towards quality proteins (Egg in particular, if tolerated), rotation of white meats & red meat, legumes and pulses, lots of vegetables (as bulking agents as well as vitamins and minerals), lots of fibre (>30g per day, from wholemeal bread + other if needed) and fruits (though restricting intake of high fructose fruits). This is a cost-effective way of eating.

My firm opinion is that sugar is an addictive substance, and as such, total elimination (per my opinion) isn't necessarily easy, but is necessary. Once sugar is completely eliminated (and intake of the other foods increased until person is eating until full each time) a person will start losing weight...simple as that.

By all means disagree with my opinions, though I would suggest doing so only after they have been shown not to be factual and accurate (by personal trial). I don't usually take time to discuss such matters, but I thought that I would share what I know to be true, by way of it being my firm opinion, in the event that it happens to help somebody here, should they choose to entertain my opinion. 

Given that there is true RDI of zero for sugar (our body makes it as needed, so zero added sugar is necessary), there is minimal inherent risk in altering diet in accordance with what I've stated. 

My sincere best wishes to anybody happening to come across this post who is obese and wishes to reduce their weight.


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## nulla nulla (23 June 2012)

Bloody wowsers. 

Crumpets with lashings of peanut butter and coffee for breakfast; a ham and cheese sandwich, apple and another coffee for lunch; and a 600gram steak with salad or veg washed down with a bottle of reasonable red wine for dinner. 

Life is about a journey. It is not a race between two points of time or wringing out every miserable skerrick you can. It is something you should enjoy. You only live once. Be happy. So what if some jumped up miserable academic says I'm obese.


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## Smurf1976 (23 June 2012)

Julia said:


> If it's something you feel strongly about, Smurf, maybe start a thread on binge drinking.
> I don't think it's unreasonable that comments on this thread have related to attitudes to obesity, given that's what the OP was apparently on about.



The point I feel strongly about is entirely relevant to this thread which is about attitudes toward those who are overweight.

My question is why do we not appear, at least as I perceive it, to have the same negative attitudes toward those who choose to engage in other health harmful practices? Why does society target primarily the overweight (and smokers)?

Find 100 random people and put them in a group. Now take out all the overweight ones. Now take out all the cigarette smokers, binge drinkers, those who don't exercise, those who use illicit drugs and those who simply eat a poor diet.

How many will be left in the group? Well under half I'd expect. Lack of exercise alone puts a large number in the "unhealthy" group without even mentioning the other issues.

So why does society target the overweight ones whilst largely ignoring other self-inflicted health dangers? What is so bad about being overweight that is not equally bad about other health dangers?

Is, as I suspect, the real issue about aesthetics rather than health? Is it that fat people simply look ugly, whereas the same can not be said of binge drinkers, pill poppers and those who eat too much salt? 

I see that question as very relevant to a thread on the subject of attitudes toward obesity. Why do we have the attitude we have in the first place, when there are so many other health issues which could reasonably attract the same attention but which are largely ignored? 

My references to binge drinking were just an example of something which is unhealthy, fairly common and reasonably acceptable socially in this country. I could probably have expressed that better in the first place - my question is about society's attitudes, not drinking.


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## Julia (23 June 2012)

Smurf, I accept that it's your perception that binge drinking is not being remarked upon to the same extent as obesity and smoking.

All I can say is that my perception is different.  Presumably our environments are different and our visual and auditory inputs also different.
It's probably the first time I've ever disagreed with you.


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## Calliope (23 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> My question is why do we not appear, at least as I perceive it, to have the same negative attitudes toward those who choose to engage in other health harmful practices? Why does society target primarily the overweight (and smokers)?




That's an easy one Smurf. They are more visible. And if you are sitting next to one in a plane, they are more intrusive, i.e. their body parts overlap your personal space. Also in the supermarket aisles.


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## Smurf1976 (23 June 2012)

Julia said:


> All I can say is that my perception is different.  Presumably our environments are different and our visual and auditory inputs also different.
> It's probably the first time I've ever disagreed with you.



All good, we're allowed to disagree.... 

I think it does come down to personal experiences etc. Certainly my experience is that heavy drinking makes you some some kind of "hero" in the eyes of many and that nobody really even considers that there are any downsides beyond a hangover and things like drink driving. The idea that high levels of alcohol consumption causes cancer, heart problems etc never seems to mentioned. 

And yet some of those same people wouldn't smoke even one cigarette for fear of health impacts, and wouldn't eat fast food unless they really were starving. But they'll quite likely have a binge tonight (Saturday) and think nothing of it.

It comes down to personal experiences as you say.


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## Calliope (23 June 2012)

These kids have plenty of *attitude*



And all because she is overweight and elderly.


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## Tink (23 June 2012)

Aaah but the new fat is called 'Curvy' now lol -- only joking.

Yep, have to agree with you there Smurf.
Have a binge tonight and clog up the emergency depts tomorrow morning.

I find drunks more intrusive than fat people, but as said, goes by experiences.



-- >not fat nor a binge drinker.


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## McLovin (23 June 2012)

I went to a Subway sandwich place today. The overweight girl in front of me asked the "Sandwich Artist" (yes they really call them that!) to remove some of the dough in her bread roll. As she explained to her friend with her "this will save about 90 calories". Then when she went to pay the cashier asked if she'd "like to make it a meal", which included 2 cookies, each of 200 calories -- I checked. She took her up on her offer. I have no doubt that she will be puzzled after a few weeks of "watching what she eats" and hasn't lost weight, but the proof is in the pudding, or cookie.


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## young-gun (24 June 2012)

McLovin said:


> I went to a Subway sandwich place today. The overweight girl in front of me asked the "Sandwich Artist" (yes they really call them that!) to remove some of the dough in her bread roll. As she explained to her friend with her "this will save about 90 calories". Then when she went to pay the cashier asked if she'd "like to make it a meal", which included 2 cookies, each of 200 calories -- I checked. She took her up on her offer. I have no doubt that she will be puzzled after a few weeks of "watching what she eats" and hasn't lost weight, but the proof is in the pudding, or cookie.




haha! it's like the ones that order huge meals from fast food chains and then insist on diet coke. perhaps they like the flavour better.


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## chrislp (24 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think it does come down to personal experiences etc. Certainly my experience is that heavy drinking makes you some some kind of "hero" in the eyes of many and that nobody really even considers that there are any downsides beyond a hangover and things like drink driving. The idea that high levels of alcohol consumption causes cancer, heart problems etc never seems to mentioned.






			
				Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> Some people do have legitimate medical problems which make it very hard for them to avoid weight gain. That's not the majority, but some people do have such issues and it would be wrong to discriminate against them and say that losing weight is easy etc.






			
				Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> I'm not obese and I'm not against alcohol.




So in a thread about fat people you are on the defensive about obesity & on the attack about alcoholism when no one had mentioned it prior.

Why are you using this line of defense?


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## johenmo (24 June 2012)

Attitudes are generally shaped by your environment - upbringing, social circle, etc..  Attitudes towards binge drinking  are less severe than towards obesity.  CanOz is right - it is part of our culture - influenced by the 6 o'clock swill, no doubt.  Young guys who could drink a slab in a night were demi-gods, as smurf mentioned.  I remember one guy saying years ago that you hadn't had a good night out unless you woke up with a black eye and couldn't remember what happened - and he was half serious.  The days when a party wasn't complete without a keg.  At 18 my social circle were occasional drinkers, unlike many of our peers.



chrislp said:


> So in a thread about fat people you are on the defensive about obesity & on the attack about alcoholism when no one had mentioned it prior.  Why are you using this line of defense?




I don't equate binge drinking with alcoholism.  Two different conditions/set of circumstances.  Binge drinkers can go without alcohol for periods that non-recovering alcoholics can't.  Sure, for some the two overlap, and always do.  Young girls don't eat in order for the alcohol to have a quicker/bigger effect and fill up on cheaper booze at home before setting out.  Had two girls who didn't do this but they remarked on how stupid it was - so it's not just an urban myth.

chrislp - I can't recall when an obese person overate and then decided to punch & kick the crap out of some passer-by.  But I can for a drunk person.  Binge drinkers would be involved with higher levels of anti-social/violent behaviour than binge eaters.


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## chrislp (24 June 2012)

johenmo said:


> I can't recall when an obese person overate and then decided to punch & kick the crap out of some passer-by.  But I can for a drunk person.  Binge drinkers would be involved with higher levels of anti-social/violent behaviour than binge eaters.




My mistake. I should have said binge drinkers as quoted by Smurf.

I would hope the binge drinking/alcoholism discussion be no longer be a part of this thread.


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## Tink (24 June 2012)

The article is about attitudes, and if you read the article its about a drunk yelling out about a fat guy.

Great post Johenmo.


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## chrislp (24 June 2012)

Tink said:


> The article is about attitudes, and if you read the article its about a drunk yelling out about a fat guy.




No, your statement is wrong. 

Read it again.


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## johenmo (24 June 2012)

Tink said:


> The article is about attitudes, and if you read the article its about a drunk yelling out about a fat guy.
> Great post Johenmo.






chrislp said:


> No, your statement is wrong.
> Read it again.




The article is about attitudes.  The drunken comment was lead-in to the article.

"...another story involving my friends and the things they scream when drunk ..."


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## Julia (24 June 2012)

chrislp said:


> My mistake. I should have said binge drinkers as quoted by Smurf.
> 
> I would hope the binge drinking/alcoholism discussion be no longer be a part of this thread.






Tink said:


> The article is about attitudes, and if you read the article its about a drunk yelling out about a fat guy.
> 
> Great post Johenmo.



I thought it was about attitudes to fat people.

Smurf raised the question about whether they are disliked because of their unattractive appearance rather than the lack of self discipline.  How about discussing that instead of getting sidetracked into binge drinking which should have its own thread if people want to discuss that.

I'll readily admit to disliking watching an obese person waddle along, rolls of fat falling over sweat pants.
I can't imagine how uncomfortable it must be and would think that factor alone would be enough to prompt some effort to do something about it.


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## Smurf1976 (24 June 2012)

chrislp said:


> So in a thread about fat people you are on the defensive about obesity & on the attack about alcoholism when no one had mentioned it prior.
> 
> Why are you using this line of defense?



All I am asking is why does society commonly accept one (binge drinking) as normal and even heroic, whilst increasingly there is intolerance toward the other (obesity)? 

Both carry a significant risk of ruined health, and both are avoidable. So why such a difference in attitude? What, exactly, makes being fat so much worse than doing something else which is harmful to health? 

Is it, as I suspect, about aesthetics and not about health? The attitude against fat people is because of their appearance and not because it may result in a heart attack, diabetes or cancer?

I don't see that question as unreasonable given the subject of the thread although I should have made it clear that my point is about the difference in society's attitudes and that binge drinking is just an example of a non-fat behaviour which is harmful to health, reasonably common and which seems to be accepted by society.


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## Calliope (24 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Is it, as I suspect, about aesthetics and not about health? The attitude against fat people is because of their appearance and not because it may result in a heart attack, diabetes or cancer?




You are spot on Smurf. The venom directed at that woman in the video in my post (#44) was solely because she is fat. If she had aesthetically acceptable looks she would not have been the butt of ridicule.

The irony is that about a sixth of the kids on the bus would have been obese.



> In 2009–2010, 16.9% of U.S. children and adolescents were obese.
> The prevalence of obesity was higher among adolescents than among preschool-aged children (Figure 2). The prevalence of obesity was higher among boys than girls (18.6% of boys and 15.0% of girls were obese).




And about a third of their parents would have been obese.



> In 2009–2010, 35.7% of U.S. adults were obese.
> More than 35% of U.S. men and women were obese in 2009–2010. There was no significant difference in prevalence between men and women at any age. Overall, adults aged 60 and over were more likely to be obese than younger adults. Among men there was no significant difference in obesity prevalence by age. Among women, however, 42.3% of those aged 60 and over were obese compared with 31.9% of women aged 20–39




http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db82.htm


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## Gringotts Bank (24 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Is it, as I suspect, about aesthetics and not about health? The attitude against fat people is because of their appearance and not because it may result in a heart attack, diabetes or cancer?




Interesting question, and no.  

The attitude against fat people is because most fat people are depressed.  And since most depressed people don't like themselves, other people will tend to have the same view.  If an observer looks at a fat person and is incapable of maintaining an independent viewpoint, the fat person's attitude towards himself will be immediately reflected in the observer.  So there's a hidden link there.  It's like that lady on the bus who was abused by teenagers and ended up on youtube this week.  Teens are very easily influenced by other's perception of themselves.  Whereas an adult would say "there's a person sitting in that seat on the bus", a teen might adopt the fat person's view of herself which involves disgust and self-hatred.  Emotional maturity and independence of mind are two key factors at play.

Overeating (along with fatigue and unexplained aches and pains) is a very common symptom of depression.  Overeating is more than just 'comfort eating'; it's a way of generating energy when the body is depleted and exhasted.  So there's no point in saying 'eat less exercise more' - that's only useful for healthy people.

Self acceptance is key.


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## chrislp (24 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> All I am asking is why does society commonly accept one (binge drinking) as normal and even heroic, whilst increasingly there is intolerance toward the other (obesity)?




I think aesthetics do play a large part.

Also drinking is a temporary thing while obesity is not something that disappears overnight.


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## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

Maybe the reaction to "fat" is a basic instinct.
If you were going to buy a horse and there were two available, one fat and one lean and muscular. You would tend to pick the later as the better horse. The same goes for any animal generally, an overweight animal projects a image of lazy and unfit, wether that is the fact is another question.
It is just a pheonomena of our affluent times where unabated eating is available, therefore we have to find ways of making it socially and morally acceptable.


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## Julia (24 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It is just a pheonomena of our affluent times where unabated eating is available, therefore we have to find ways of making it socially and morally acceptable.



No, we should not accept that as the norm.  Quite apart from any suggestion of aesthetic factors, the cost to the health system is immense.
So many health problems, e.g. high BP, heart disease, diabetes are largely caused by obesity and lack of exercise.

No one threw in the towel on smoking, and look how socially unacceptable that has become.


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## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

Julia said:


> No, we should not accept that as the norm.  Quite apart from any suggestion of aesthetic factors, the cost to the health system is immense.
> So many health problems, e.g. high BP, heart disease, diabetes are largely caused by obesity and lack of exercise.
> 
> No one threw in the towel on smoking, and look how socially unacceptable that has become.




I wasn't saying we should accept it, far from it I think it is a disgrace. 
What I was saying is rather than be honest, we have to be politicaly correct and excuse bad behaviour.
Watching people eat stupid size portions and also throw heaps in the bin, when the world is facing a food shortage, is mind boggling.
Just spend a bit of time on a cruise ship, fat people with the mentality of, I've paid for it I'm going to eat it or die trying. Un bloody believable.


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## Julia (24 June 2012)

Glad to hear it, SP.
I know what you mean.  We may not refer to people as fat.  That would be discrimination.
Perhaps if the same level of discrimination was applied to fat people as has been directed toward smokers, we might actually get somewhere.
Meantime, they appear to be some sort of protected species.


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## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Glad to hear it, SP.
> I know what you mean.  We may not refer to people as fat.  That would be discrimination.
> Perhaps if the same level of discrimination was applied to fat people as has been directed toward smokers, we might actually get somewhere.
> Meantime, they appear to be some sort of protected species.




Funnily enough, from my observations, a lot of fat people smoke and from medical evidence that is really bad.


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## CanOz (24 June 2012)

In China, as many parts of Asia, obesity is frowned upon. Crude and hurtful comments will welcome those who try and shop for sizes to fit.

It is not normal here....at the moment. It is changing though, as their incomes and access to fatty foods improves...and the bikes get used less. The children are the obvious ones but more and more adults are diagnosed with diabetes. My father in law included.

Hopefully most continue to cherish their healthy diet, a cultural icon, for many generations yet.

I sure am happy my wife looks after herself.

CanOz


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## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

CanOz said:


> I sure am happy my wife looks after herself.
> 
> CanOz




I can relate to that.


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## Calliope (2 July 2012)

Where America goes we follow.


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