# Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU/NZ?



## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

Hi All 

I day trade USA futures full time. I want to get some insight from only full time traders who trade the US markets about how they manage their schedules. That has been the most challenging thing for me personally because of the time zone issue. US markets open here (Syd, Melb time) 11:30pm - 1:30am (depending on standard or daylight time) so trying to manage sleep/peak state for optimal trading overnight is a challenge. 

I've tried many schedules and timings from full 5-7hr sleep patterns to bi-phasic sleep cycles whilst incorporating diet and exercise into my days. I've done a tonne of research on sleep, etc. So I have a reasonably good routine set in place now but there are days where inability to get that needed sleep becomes frustrating (which is natural as I'm fighting my body's circadian rhythm to stay up at night0 

So insights into what works for you and what doesn't to manage sleep / peak state?

Oh and moving to US not an option. my boss (wife) said no go


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## CanOz (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Mr Liquid said:


> Hi All
> 
> I day trade USA futures full time. I want to get some insight from only full time traders who trade the US markets about how they manage their schedules. That has been the most challenging thing for me personally because of the time zone issue. US markets open here (Syd, Melb time) 11:30pm - 1:30am (depending on standard or daylight time) so trying to manage sleep/peak state for optimal trading overnight is a challenge.
> 
> ...




I'm sure you've been asked the obvious question before but I'll try anyway....why not find a contract that fits your schedule instead of trying to fit your schedule around a contract? If you like the ES then your strategy might work on the Eurex, say the Eurostoxx (FESX), that trades in your evening.


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## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



CanOz said:


> I'm sure you've been asked the obvious question before but I'll try anyway....why not find a contract that fits your schedule instead of trying to fit your schedule around a contract? If you like the ES then your strategy might work on the Eurex, say the Eurostoxx (FESX), that trades in your evening.




A BIG +1.

Trading is meant to serve an end not be the end.


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



CanOz said:


> I'm sure you've been asked the obvious question before but I'll try anyway....why not find a contract that fits your schedule instead of trying to fit your schedule around a contract? If you like the ES then your strategy might work on the Eurex, say the Eurostoxx (FESX), that trades in your evening.





Thanks for getting the thread going CanOz. 

Alternative instruments is definitely a consideration I have. I don't have much knowledge on other markets outside of the US so your suggestion is helpful. I will look into that! 

I trained myself on ES and stuck with it. Trading ASX futures is also an option which will eliminate time zone issues however the reward in dollar terms is literally half that of ES (in terms of points only) for the same amount of research effort.

My main reasons for choosing ES are to do with goals. Every market has its own intricacies in the way it moves and behaves harmonically. ES is a beast that can handle very large size without much slippage at all. So if my goal is to trade large size like the professionals, then its prudent for me to be in ES - not to say that its not possible to do well in other markets but as you said - I understand how ES moves and 'like it'.

Maybe if we can come up with a list of other futures markets that behave similarly to the ES and trades similar volume that are better suited to this side of the world?


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## skc (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Mr Liquid said:


> So insights into what works for you and what doesn't to manage sleep / peak state?




Having to stay up at the wrong sort of hours is not unique to traders. There are all sorts of industries that do night shifts... Hospital staff, transport workers, security industry, media, 24-hr IT support, Apu etc. May be do some research and borrow some pages from their books (I have no idea where are these books and what are contained i the pages).

But, like CanOz says... not everyone's body should be abused to stay up all night for prolonged periods. You literally can't pay me enough to trade the US markets.


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



skc said:


> Having to stay up at the wrong sort of hours is not unique to traders. There are all sorts of industries that do night shifts... Hospital staff, transport workers, security industry, media, 24-hr IT support, Apu etc. May be do some research and borrow some pages from their books (I have no idea where are these books and what are contained i the pages).
> 
> But, like CanOz says... not everyone's body should be abused to stay up all night for prolonged periods. You literally can't pay me enough to trade the US markets.






Thanks skc.. What you forget is that traders are not like the other night shift workers you mention here. We trade in isolation in front of our screens and not in a team environment with co-workers and bosses so the workplace dynamics are not comparable. It's a mental performance game not physical as I'm sure any professional trader knows.

Secondly, I do not consider my body being put under abuse. If that is your filter, then yes you will experience pain in doing so. I don't mind it because professional traders are dynamic and adaptable. The ES is the domain of the professionals so I understand not everyone is likely to thrive in it and even be intimidated by it. I on the other hand love it.  In other words, I literally won't devalue my rewards for effort put in by 50% by trading ASX futures.

BTW, do you have any real suggestions or insights regarding the threads topic of discussion as I am only seeking insights from full time ES traders. Everyone else will be posting 'noise' here but I appreciate the sling.


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Trembling Hand said:


> A BIG +1.
> 
> Trading is meant to serve an end not be the end.





couldn't agree more!  that end being goals and outcomes as I stated in my other reply.


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## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Mr Liquid said:


> My main reasons for choosing ES are to do with goals. Every market has its own intricacies in the way it moves and behaves harmonically. ES is a beast that can handle very large size without much slippage at all. So if my goal is to trade large size like the professionals, then its prudent for me to be in ES -




That is pretty limited thinking. Frame it another way. Are there any large traders outside the ES? 



Mr Liquid said:


> Maybe if we can come up with a list of other futures markets that behave similarly to the ES and trades similar volume that are better suited to this side of the world?




FTSE
DAX
Nikkei
K200
STI
SPI
STW
HSI
HHI

All can handle far more volume than you will be able to swing.


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## lesm (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



skc said:


> But, like CanOz says... not everyone's body should be abused to stay up all night for prolonged periods. You literally can't pay me enough to trade the US markets.




Trading the DAX works out ok from AUS, always a bit of fun with it, or the trading into the London New York overlap with Spot FX, or finding tradeable future contracts. Really just a matter of finding the market and contracts that fit the way you (want) to trade or have the required liquidity.

Our daylight saving time (AESDT), as well as when DST occurs in the Northern Hemisphere is another factor to consider, but not difficult to work around. Can find an instrument to trade, which better fits our times, especially for those who are working full time and trading part time.

Gave up working ungodly hours years ago, but can still do them as the need arises. Senior roles still require a high time commitment at times.


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## CanOz (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Mr Liquid said:


> Thanks for getting the thread going CanOz.
> 
> Alternative instruments is definitely a consideration I have. I don't have much knowledge on other markets outside of the US so your suggestion is helpful.....
> 
> Maybe if we can come up with a list of other futures markets that behave similarly to the ES and trades similar volume that are better suited to this side of the world?




Yeah, that's why I suggested the FESX,  it's thicker than the ES and that makes it one of the most liquid markets in the world. That said, the point value is roughly the same as a tick on the ES from memory...

CanOz


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Trembling Hand said:


> That is pretty limited thinking. Frame it another way. Are there any large traders outside the ES?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Dont you think that it pretty limited thinking? Esp. amusing you know how much I can swing or how big I want to swing eventually (to serve an end)? There are trades that can actually move a market eroding any edge in it. With the ES, even if you are a $10 Million a day trader, it will handle it.. If your plan is to stay small time then dont bother looking into the ES as an instrument. 

Of course there are large traders outside of the ES. That is not the point. Size is only one aspect to consider. I won't go into all the other benefits ES has over most other markets and methods (inc. stocks, forex etc) in this thread. All of that has to be combined with self-awareness which is a very individual thing in order to find the right instrument.

Thanks for the list. That's what this thread needs.. insights!


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



CanOz said:


> Yeah, that's why I suggested the FESX,  it's thicker than the ES and that makes it one of the most liquid markets in the world. That said, the point value is roughly the same as a tick on the ES from memory...
> 
> CanOz





Beautiful.. I will look into it. Thanks for the valuable insight.


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



lesm said:


> Trading the DAX works out ok from AUS, always a bit of fun with it, or the trading into the London New York overlap with Spot FX, or finding tradeable future contracts. Really just a matter of finding the market and contracts that fit the way you (want) to trade or have the required liquidity.
> 
> Our daylight saving time (AESDT), as well as when DST occurs in the Northern Hemisphere is another factor to consider, but not difficult to work around. Can find an instrument to trade, which better fits our times, especially for those who are working full time and trading part time.
> 
> Gave up working ungodly hours years ago, but can still do them as the need arises. Senior roles still require a high time commitment at times.





Ungodly hours aren't a problem if single and unattached but once we have a family and kids, the game changes a little so that's where we have to evolve to find that imperfect balance.

One thing I'll add is that there is no point in trading only part time long term. There are easier ways to make a few extra dollars. Trading offers immense opportunity but you have to approach it with the will to make millions. Any less is a waste of energy, time and effort and is what keeps traders struggling.

thanks for the market suggestions.


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## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Mr Liquid said:


> There are trades that can actually move a market eroding any edge in it. With the ES, even if you are a $10 Million a day trader, it will handle it.. If your plan is to stay small time then dont bother looking into the ES as an instrument.






10 million a day hey.... WOW. I hope one day....

Hey hold on......





What about 13 mil in half a day....


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Trembling Hand said:


> 10 million a day hey.... WOW. I hope one day....
> 
> Hey hold on......
> 
> ...






lol.. way to expose your egotistical side (not very flattering). I wont go there cos I don't need to (i can manipulate figures in my records with a click).. you take my 10M point literally. I could have said 100M or 1M .. btw i was referring to R not Profit.. or are you claiming to be netting 13M per half day every day as your statement implies.. cos we all know what real traders experience right


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## TheUnknown (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Mr Liquid said:


> lol.. way to expose your egotistical side (not very flattering). I wont go there cos I don't need to (i can manipulate figures in my records with a click).. you take my 10M point literally. I could have said 100M or 1M .. btw i was referring to R not Profit.. or are you claiming to be netting 13M per half day every day as your statement implies.. cos we all know what real traders experience right




Lol


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## skyQuake (6 October 2014)

*Re: Any Full Time ES Traders Here in AU / NZ ?*



Mr Liquid said:


> lol.. way to expose your egotistical side (not very flattering). I wont go there cos I don't need to (i can manipulate figures in my records with a click).. you take my 10M point literally. I could have said 100M or 1M .. btw i was referring to R not Profit.. or are you claiming to be netting 13M per half day every day as your statement implies.. cos we all know what real traders experience right




Its turnover...


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## Trembling Hand (6 October 2014)

Ok Mr Liquid good luck with your night shift and swinging large.


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

Trembling Hand said:


> Ok Mr Liquid good luck with your night shift and swinging large.





I smell a hint of sarcasm in there.. but thank you.

Besides all the other 'noise' in this thread, thank you to CanOz and Trembling Hand for the alternative market suggestions. They are very helpful to any local traders trying to explore more options, not just me.

However, this thread is yet to receive a response regarding the initial query so I hope future posts in this thread will address that.. funny how people just want to get a comment in for the sake of it. I'm looking for value regarding the reason for this post if anyone has some?


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## CanOz (6 October 2014)

Mr Liquid said:


> However, this thread is yet to receive a response regarding the initial query so I hope future posts in this thread will address that.. funny how people just want to get a comment in for the sake of it. I'm looking for value regarding the reason for this post if anyone has some?






> So insights into what works for you and what doesn't to manage sleep / peak state?




Going back ten years or so i had to work night shift. I found that i really suffered just before dawn. Then once i got home i could sleep really sound if i went to bed right away. Because i slept so sound i only needed 4-6 hours sleep to get though the day, which at that stage meant helping to build my house. 

I've also done a bit of research on sleep since then as i've been plagued with insomnia from time to time. The recent data shows that 90 minute cycles can be quite effective if you can awake at the proper time during the end of a cycle. 

Actually Withings has a new sleep tool that could help you as well. Their baby monitor is a beautiful piece of kit.

*Withings Aura*

Oh by the way Mr.Liquid, i sent you a PM


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## Mr Liquid (6 October 2014)

CanOz said:


> Going back ten years or so i had to work night shift. I found that i really suffered just before dawn. Then once i got home i could sleep really sound if i went to bed right away. Because i slept so sound i only needed 4-6 hours sleep to get though the day, which at that stage meant helping to build my house.
> 
> I've also done a bit of research on sleep since then as i've been plagued with insomnia from time to time. The recent data shows that 90 minute cycles can be quite effective if you can awake at the proper time during the end of a cycle.






Thanks again CanOz.

I came on here married to the S&P. Call it my first true love but after thinking about all the alternatives available thanks to you guys (which I had little knowledge about), I plan to eventually divorce ES (which will be painful) and go with one of the other more suitable instruments. Will definitely make the wife and kids happier and that's a reward that's priceless.

Over the next year, I'll learn about the asian markets and the ones from TB's list above and how they move as my methodology (discretionary using volume profiling mostly) would be applicable to any market so no huge learning curve required.

Regarding sleep, yeah my experience is shaping up to be similar to yours and I've only been trading privately full time for about 2 years now. What a journey


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## CanOz (6 October 2014)

Heres the depth on the FESX Eurostoxx Dec contract on IB's TWS.


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## AussieMatt (6 October 2014)

Mr Liquid said:


> Hi All
> 
> I day trade USA futures full time. I want to get some insight from only full time traders who trade the US markets about how they manage their schedules. That has been the most challenging thing for me personally because of the time zone issue. US markets open here (Syd, Melb time) 11:30pm - 1:30am (depending on standard or daylight time) so trying to manage sleep/peak state for optimal trading overnight is a challenge.
> 
> ...




Hi,

I trade FX fulltime and my hours are ~6pm to 2/3am depending on open trades etc, prior to that I worked in FX in a bank on the London shift for 2 yrs. For me it just comes down to staying fit/healthy, the weekends I tend to try and hit bed earlier and Mondays I am up before Sydney open for any gap setups so I get a little variety which helps. But eating healthy/exercise daily is really a must, I tend to stay away from the screens until London open and use the time to get out as much as I can. Hope that helps

Matt.


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## Weatsop (10 October 2014)

Honestly don't understand why you're not used to those hours by now. Just... go to sleep at the same time each morning, and wake up at the same time each day. Your body should handle it fine after a couple of weeks, max. Get outside plenty in the arvo, and have a well lit work area. Make your room dark to sleep in, and I strongly recommend cotton-and-wax earplugs. Those things rock.

Sure you'll lose your weekend mornings, but that comes with the job. If you want to trade those hours, just shift your whole day over and stick to it.

Me, I've just switched my own trading from US time to Europe. Can get the kids from school, eat dinner while I trade, get to bed at a reasonable hour (usually an hour or two after the US open), sleep to 8am, easy. No big task to shift a little on the weekends when I have my kids, get up at 7 to make pancakes. At least, that's the plan - only just getting back into trading after a couple of years out of it.


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