# Australian Federal Election - 2022



## UMike (24 March 2022)

Face it the Campaigning has already begun.
Until this week Albo was a shoo in to displace Scomo from the Lodge.

Minor parties are going to have a major influence as too which one of the 2 gains power.

So what do you reckon?


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## Knobby22 (24 March 2022)

Scomo is a master at politics, will be interesting to see what he comes up with.


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## Humid (24 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Scomo is a master at politics, will be interesting to see what he comes up with.



Looked amateur with the religious bill....marketing perhaps politics not sure


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## PZ99 (24 March 2022)

I reckon it will all come down to the budget next week.


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## moXJO (25 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I reckon it will all come down to the budget next week.



I think it comes down to how many "freebies" the voters get. And any possible Labor implosion.


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## UMike (25 March 2022)

Looks like the Coalition are a fair way behind.


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## moXJO (25 March 2022)

UMike said:


> Looks like the Coalition are a fair way behind.
> View attachment 139467



They lost their base. I can't see them winning unless Labor somehow manages to totally stuff it up. 

As horrific as a Labor front bench is. I'm tired of scomo mouthing off on the world stage. The guy has done enough damage.


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## PZ99 (25 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I think it comes down to how many "freebies" the voters get. And any possible Labor implosion.



Going off the last few posts one can expect a kitchen sink in the mail


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## explod (25 March 2022)

latest Morgan poll.  Lib 42 ALP 58


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## SirRumpole (26 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I reckon it will all come down to the budget next week.




A biit of bi-partisanship from Albo regarding the hand-outs should neutralise any advantage the Coalition gets in terms of 'freebies', but we all realise that both Parties in government will try and claw back revenue, but one will do it to different people than the other.

Labor has to make sure they don't hit the middle class like they did last time, that's where the critical voting mass is.


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## IFocus (26 March 2022)

Been away what happen to the Libs in SA?


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## SirRumpole (26 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Been away what happen to the Libs in SA?




They got mauled by Malinauskus .


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## wayneL (26 March 2022)

Albos comment re men can't have babies and purported antiwokeness...

Reclaiming the traditional Labor voter or dropping an important cohort? or Master stroke or political suicide?

I suspect the alphabet soupers all vote green anyway, it might have been a great move (in spite of the mean girls saga).

Meanwhile, Scomo seems blithely ignorant that his base is leaving in droves.


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## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Albos comment re men can't have babies and purported antiwokeness...
> 
> Reclaiming the traditional Labor voter or dropping an important cohort? or Master stroke or political suicide?
> 
> ...



Or maybe it is time to pass the parcel?
If he wins the election, the negativeness continues, nothing is a positive, really is a no win election. 
Absolutely no point in winning it, so sometimes best to let the others have a go, if he wins he loses if he loses he loses.
A bit like Ash Barty, what is the up side in staying around, when you have had enough? Just for the media's entertainment.


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## wayneL (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Or maybe it is time to pass the parcel?
> If he wins the election, the negativeness continues, nothing is a positive, really is a no win election.
> Absolutely no point in winning it, so sometimes best to let the others have a go, if he wins he loses if he loses he loses.
> A bit like Ash Barty, what is the up side in staying around, when you have had enough? Just for the media's entertainment.



It does seem like a poison chalice.


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## Iggy_Pop (27 March 2022)

Political parties, do not win elections, more someone loses. Last election Bill Shorten was not seen as a leader and Franking Credit etc made them look stupid as they did not understand how franking credits work. The climate change policy, while needed, could not be explained by Shorten and he looked stupid again.  Morrison was seen as a safer bet.
This time Morrison has been seen as full of spin on most topics, no leadership on sensitive issue - women, Porter, refugees, floods, fires, Barnaby, job keeper rorts to companies that did not meet criteria, sports rorts, climate change , water allocations, car parks, flood support etc and no real vision for  Australia.
The spin wears out and Morrison suddenly needs to give all tax payers a few hundred dollars in the budget, retirees a reduced draw down on superannuation, , refugees who have been locked up for many years may be able to go to NZ, our tax money for health, vaccines, etc
Still no vision for Australia more how can I keep power.
We are not stupid and will vote accordingly

Iggy


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## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

Iggy_Pop said:


> retirees a reduced draw down on superannuation, ,
> 
> Iggy



That is a classic, from my experience a reduced drawdown requirement is a joke, you need a certain amount to live.
Saying you can withdraw half that amount, doesn't change how much you have to take out to live, it might be great if you have millions but if you don't you still have draw out enough to live.
So your capital still falls considerably.


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## wayneL (27 March 2022)

Iggy_Pop said:


> We are not stupid and will vote accordingly
> 
> Iggy



Well yes, but, we'll just vote for the other mob that has proven themselves just as useless.

Rinse repeat.

It's kinda not very smart isn't it.


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## Ferret (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is a classic, from my experience a reduced drawdown requirement is a joke, you need a certain amount to live.
> Saying you can withdraw half that amount, doesn't change how much you have to take out to live, it might be great if you have millions but if you don't you still have draw out enough to live.



Exactly.  It's only those with the high balances that benefit from this.  They get to keep their balance tax sheltered for longer.


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## SirRumpole (27 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Well yes, but, we'll just vote for the other mob that has proven themselves just as useless.
> 
> Rinse repeat.
> 
> It's kinda not very smart isn't it.



Well, we actually have to know something about the people we are voting for.

As useless as they may be , the big parties are a known quantity, and unless Indies are well known in their electorates they don't usually get up, and the mainstream media ignore them.


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## Knobby22 (27 March 2022)

Stalwarts Kim Carr and Conchetta Wells won't be around after next election as their respective parties have removed their Senate spots.


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## SirRumpole (27 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Stalwarts Kim Carr and Conchetta Wells won't be around after next election as their respective parties have removed their Senate spots.




Probably a couple of dinosaurs, although I did admire Kim Carr's passion for Australian manufacturing.


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## wayneL (27 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, we actually have to know something about the people we are voting for.
> 
> As useless as they may be , the big parties are a known quantity, and unless Indies are well known in their electorates they don't usually get up, and the mainstream media ignore them.



The Devil you know, eh?

Well then, it looks like we're stuck with the Devil


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## Smurf1976 (28 March 2022)

I'll simply observe that so many things are in such an extreme "kick the can" position, where the can can't be kicked much if any further, that change of some sort is inevitable no matter who wins.

Inflation, debt, energy, housing, international relations and so on. None can just keep going the way they've been going, it'll end up with disaster if they try that.


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## Iggy_Pop (28 March 2022)

Have to agree, we do not have very good politicians at the moment. Thought Abbot was bad enough, Morrison is trying to go lower, and Albo is an unknown, probably better then Shorten. Our system doesn't allow much else, and if we put a few independents in we could give big Clive or Pauline the balance of power which is a scary thought.  About all we can do is give them two terms and boot them out.

Iggy


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## wayneL (28 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll simply observe that so many things are in such an extreme "kick the can" position, where the can can't be kicked much if any further, that change of some sort is inevitable no matter who wins.
> 
> Inflation, debt, energy, housing, international relations and so on. None can just keep going the way they've been going, it'll end up with disaster if they try that.



I was listening to Ray Dalio today.

While it's nothing many of us haven't been thinking about in general, it was damned scary coming from him.

My big take away as far as Australia is concerned...

Let's all learn Mandarin... and perhaps stop p1ssing off Xi.


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## PZ99 (28 March 2022)

Here's the state of the budget in the near future.. that's without factoring in the possibility of another global economic downturn 








Spoiler: PSST...



anyone else noticed the ABC's choice of colours to reflect their umm... BIAS ? > LOL


More here...








						Out of the Frydenberg and into the fire with debt and deficits for at least another decade
					

Once again, an election looms large over this year's budget, and decisions about the nation's finances will be framed through the prism of a deeply unpopular government seeking to secure another term, writes Ian Verrender.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Knobby22 (28 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> I was listening to Ray Dalio today.
> 
> While it's nothing many of us haven't been thinking about in general, it was damned scary coming from him.
> 
> ...



Just been listening to an Australian security expert re: the Solomons on our ABC.

1. If the Chinese set up the base, we will be unable to help in any Chinese Pacific engagement as we will have to keep our forces close to shore. It's a containment effect plus if we did get into war they could cut us off from the USA easily.

2. They are also working hard on Papua New Gunea. Corruption of politicians is their method.

3. The USA has been uninterested and it has taken to the most recent Presidency (Biden) to commit that they are going to set up an Embassy in the country.

4. We helped China by cutting back aid.

5. Morrison's Government has been trying to fix things and put the funding back and also is allowing citizens to come to Australia to work in our agriculture sector. They need to do a LOT more. We should be prepared to spend big, it would be an absolute disaster if China got their way.

(On a side note, he also stated that the West is giving Ukraine just enough help so they can fail valiantly and really the deal with Poland re the jets and similar is required.)


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## PZ99 (28 March 2022)

I reckon the West is happy for Russia to deplete their military stock whilst under sanctions. It ain't over 'till it's over


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## Iron Triangle (28 March 2022)

I'm voting for one nation this time , totally over the majors and don't mind Latham ,  the Govt recently tried to criminalise cash transcations over 10k in the middle of the night but 1N blocked it.  My 2 cents I sorta think the Libs will maintain office again , like last time voters will go with the encumbent at the last minute as too many unknows with Labor.


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> 5. Morrison's Government has been trying to fix things and put the funding back and also is allowing citizens to come to Australia to work in our agriculture sector. They need to do a LOT more. We should be prepared to spend big, it would be an absolute disaster if China got their way.



As I said in an earlier post, we can't outbid China, that is just silly talk, then if China put in place a similar pact with Indonesia, we are snookered, an umbrella forms over our Northern coast.
So everyone saying tell the U.S to pizz off, had better start pushing for mandarin being taught at schools, as @wayneL said.
This isn't rocket science, we are sitting on the raw materials China wants, they have to pay top dollar to get them when in reality what stops them from just taking them?
I wish all those with this incredible insight, into why we should just flick the bird to the U.S, can explain how we could stop a country like China from just setting up in the far North of Australia.
Really, if they have major naval installations in very close proximity to the North coast, how do we stop them just building say a base on Cape York for instance?
Then when that is established, just move slowly down in a passive takeover, they probably own a lot of agricultural land already in the far North, they don't have to declare war just bring more and more people in.
How would we stop it? I'm sure there are laws to stop it, but realistically who is going to enforce those laws? Us.


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## Knobby22 (29 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I said in an earlier post, we can't outbid China, that is just silly talk, then if China put in place a similar pact with Indonesia, we are snookered, an umbrella forms over our Northern coast.
> So everyone saying tell the U.S to pizz off, had better start pushing for mandarin being taught at schools, as @wayneL said.
> This isn't rocket science, we are sitting on the raw materials China wants, they have to pay top dollar to get them when in reality what stops them from just taking them?
> I wish all those with this incredible insight, into why we should just flick the bird to the U.S, can explain how we could stop a country like China from just setting up in the far North of Australia.
> ...



Well yes, why would enforce our laws.
Don't understand.


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Well yes, why would enforce our laws.
> Don't understand.



Well it is a bit like what is happening in Ukraine, they have laws but Russia is ignoring them, fortunately the Ukraine has allies that are supply arms and ammunition.
If we don't have pacts with the U.S and U.K, who supplies that service for us, if China decides to follow Russia's lead, but in Australia?
I don't think we produce any arms and ammunition in Australia, but I may be wrong.
I just can't see as the World order changes, why China with its massive wealth, population and military might, would not just eventually move into Australia it ticks all their boxes. Vast areas of under utilised agricultural land, abundance of raw materials and only 25million people here, makes absolute sense that it becomes a food bowl for them.
What deterrent do we have, to stop them just walking in?


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## Knobby22 (29 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well it is a bit like what is happening in Ukraine, they have laws but Russia is ignoring them, fortunately the Ukraine has allies that are supply arms and ammunition.
> If we don't have pacts with the U.S and U.K, who supplies that service for us, if China decides to follow Russia's lead, but in Australia?
> I don't think we produce any arms and ammunition in Australia, but I may be wrong.
> I just can't see as the World order changes, why China with its massive wealth, population and military might, would not just eventually move into Australia it ticks all their boxes. Vast areas of under utilised agricultural land, abundance of raw materials and only 25million people here, makes absolute sense that it becomes a food bowl for them.
> ...



We do have pacts. We can produce ammunition here. I personally worked on one project.
They have to conquer us to build a navy base in Townsville. They have other fish to fry.


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## Humid (29 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well it is a bit like what is happening in Ukraine, they have laws but Russia is ignoring them, fortunately the Ukraine has allies that are supply arms and ammunition.
> If we don't have pacts with the U.S and U.K, who supplies that service for us, if China decides to follow Russia's lead, but in Australia?
> I don't think we produce any arms and ammunition in Australia, but I may be wrong.
> I just can't see as the World order changes, why China with its massive wealth, population and military might, would not just eventually move into Australia it ticks all their boxes. Vast areas of under utilised agricultural land, abundance of raw materials and only 25million people here, makes absolute sense that it becomes a food bowl for them.
> What deterrent do we have, to stop them just walking in?



Spears and rocks like the last time it happened....


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Spears and rocks like the last time it happened....



Yes except next time there wont be a Centrelink, NDIS, rental assistance, medicare, the dole etc. 😂


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## Humid (29 March 2022)

Perhaps buying hardware fit for purpose would help
From John Menadue

Not one major item of defence expenditure purchased over the past twenty years is either fit for purpose or appropriate to Australia’s defence needs. Partly this is due to lack of proper process, lack of scrutiny and an inability to decide strategic imperatives. Australia does not need heavy tanks. The F35 bought off the plan is fraught with faults. The European fleet of helicopters has been scrapped to be replaced with the US Black Hawk. The Adelaide was laid up in Tonga on a mercy mission with engine water filters apparently not designed to cope with volcanic ash.Believe that if you will.The problem did not bedevil Chinese naval competitors who were in and out of Tonga before parts for the Adelaide arrived.

Responding to US pressure Morrison scrapped the French submarine deal, which had Macron pick him in one, calling him a liar. ‘I don’t think he is a liar; I know he is.’ The Americans want to be in charge of their future war against the Chinese, so they gave the French the flick. Australia has been solemnly promised new US submarines in twenty years or so.The Australian media swallowed it, anchor and chain. All this was done under a new defence arrangement known as AUKUS – Australia, United Kingdom and the United States. Why the UK is in on the arrangement is unclear but colonial deprivation seems as good a reason as any.


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

The defence of Australia requires a new force posture review | The Strategist
					

The strategic and capability judgements outlined in the Australian government’s 2020 defence strategic update have superseded the Defence Department’s last force posture review released in 2012. The expectation that the Australian Defence Force will be ...




					www.aspistrategist.org.au


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Perhaps buying hardware fit for purpose would help
> From John Menadue



Another ex public servant, they always seem to have an axe to grind, or want to still be relevant.
John Laurence Menadue AO is an Australian businessman and public commentator, and formerly a senior public servant and diplomat. He served as Secretary of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet from 1975 to 1976, working under the Whitlam and Fraser governments.
Born: 8 February 1935 (age 87 years), South Australia


Humid said:


> Not one major item of defence expenditure purchased over the past twenty years is either fit for purpose or appropriate to Australia’s defence needs. Partly this is due to lack of proper process, lack of scrutiny and an inability to decide strategic imperatives. Australia does not need heavy tanks. The F35 bought off the plan is fraught with faults.



Maybe he should send his article to the Canadian media.
Canada locks in deal for 88 F-35 fighters​Lockheed’s fifth-generation F-35 stealth jets are considered the most modern combat aircraft in the world.

Or Maybe these other Countries.








						Why the F-35 is at the top of the shopping list for militaries in Europe
					

For many European countries, choosing the F-35 is as much a geopolitical decision as it is an operational and financial one.




					www.businessinsider.com


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## moXJO (29 March 2022)

Some US polls seem to be showing that US citizens are not keen for war against China or Russia and don't think they should get involved. 

That's a major problem for us long term.


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## Humid (29 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Another ex public servant, they always seem to have an axe to grind, or want to still be relevant.
> John Laurence Menadue AO is an Australian businessman and public commentator, and formerly a senior public servant and diplomat. He served as Secretary of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet from 1975 to 1976, working under the Whitlam and Fraser governments.
> Born: 8 February 1935 (age 87 years), South Australia
> 
> ...



I'll send this one to you....









						Australia spent billions on jet fighters off the plan. Now, we're having trouble even flying them
					

The myriad problems with Australia’s new fleet of F-35 aircraft mean pilots aren’t getting the flying time they need and the jets themselves are in danger of becoming obsolete.




					theconversation.com


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

Well it shows someone is a good salesman, because they have sold the F-35 to a hell of a lot of countries.
Or that someone isn't happy because the countries didn't buy their fighter, who knows, for every report by a journo there is another report exactly opposite by another journo.
Thankfully I don't give a ratz, I wont be flying a fighter jet.

Maybe we should have bought this one.








						Why China's upgraded J-20 stealth fighter still cannot match IAF Rafale's firepower
					

Although China on Wednesday announced it was pulling back its troops from frontline areas along the LAC but Air Force from both countries continue to bolster their strike capability.




					www.wionews.com
				




Or maybe just don't have a military, that would save a packet.


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## Humid (29 March 2022)

Humid said:


> I'll send this one to you....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Obsolete....you know the feeling


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## Humid (29 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well it shows someone is a good salesman, because they have sold the F-35 to a hell of a lot of countries.
> Or that someone isn't happy because the countries didn't buy their fighter, who knows, for every report by a journo there is another report exactly opposite by another journo.
> Thankfully I don't give a ratz, I wont be flying a fighter jet.
> 
> ...



A little bird tells me you struggle on a scooter let alone a fighter jet


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## StockyGuy (29 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Some US polls seem to be showing that US citizens are not keen for war against China or Russia and don't think they should get involved.
> 
> That's a major problem for us long term.




Long term, sure.  But our treaty arrangements are so fundamental that, if not honored, after that no ally could trust in anything promised by the US.

They are not our OOONLY ally, though.  It's not spoken of much at all but I've always believed keeping the Queen (or King) as head of state meaningfully bolsters our national security, more than some paper alliances.  It could be more than symbolism if the chips were down.  Not only that but, if nothing else, close cultural ties would increase the likelihood they would take many of us in, refugee style,  if China made a big move into kangaroo land.   There's often a churlish, low intelligence streak in a lot of republican sentiment.  A not "getting it", IMHO.  Having such a profound connection to the font of western liberal democratic culture would give expansionist types pause for thought. Severing that symbolic relationship makes us look like easier prey.  While the UK is no USA, it is also permanent member of the UN Security Council with lotsa nukes handy, if things get too out of hand.


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## SirRumpole (29 March 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> Long term, sure.  But our treaty arrangements are so fundamental that, if not honored, after that no ally could trust in anything promised by the US.
> 
> They are not our OOONLY ally, though.  It's not spoken of much at all but I've always believed keeping the Queen (or King) as head of state meaningfully bolsters our national security, more than some paper alliances.  It could be more than symbolism if the chips were down.  Not only that but, if nothing else, close cultural ties would increase the likelihood they would take many of us in, refugee style,  if China made a big move into kangaroo land.   There's often a churlish, low intelligence streak in a lot of republican sentiment.  A not "getting it", IMHO.  Having such a profound connection to the font of western liberal democratic culture would give expansionist types pause for thought. Severing that symbolic relationship makes us look like easier prey.  While the UK is no USA, it is also permanent member of the UN Security Council with lotsa nukes handy, if things get too out of hand.



I reckon they owe us a few after two World Wars.


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## wayneL (29 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I reckon they owe us a few after two World Wars.



I doubt they give a @#$&


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

Interesting the budget mentioned what I said was going to be the elephant in the room, the NDIS, apparently going from current $35billion, to $70 billion in forward estimates. I hope that gets privatised, i'll buy shares.👍
Having said that it is wonderful, the daughter has found it life changing, rather than coming to us she actually has a government department where she can get help with financial assistance for disability aids.


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## PZ99 (30 March 2022)

I'll be curious how the fuel excise cut will play out both now and in 6 months when it ends.

Just so happens it will end at roughly the same time as Labor's promised extra budget if they win the election


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2022)

*"Scott Morrison not fit to be Prime Minister" says ex Liberal Senator.*

If his colleagues don't trust him, why should anyone else ?









						Outgoing Liberal senator calls Scott Morrison an 'autocrat and a bully'
					

Outgoing Liberal senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells takes aim at Prime Minister Scott Morrison, describing him as "a bully with no moral compass" who pretends to be a man of faith.




					www.abc.net.au


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## moXJO (30 March 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> Long term, sure.  But our treaty arrangements are so fundamental that, if not honored, after that no ally could trust in anything promised by the US.
> 
> They are not our OOONLY ally, though.  It's not spoken of much at all but I've always believed keeping the Queen (or King) as head of state meaningfully bolsters our national security, more than some paper alliances.  It could be more than symbolism if the chips were down.  Not only that but, if nothing else, close cultural ties would increase the likelihood they would take many of us in, refugee style,  if China made a big move into kangaroo land.   There's often a churlish, low intelligence streak in a lot of republican sentiment.  A not "getting it", IMHO.  Having such a profound connection to the font of western liberal democratic culture would give expansionist types pause for thought. Severing that symbolic relationship makes us look like easier prey.  While the UK is no USA, it is also permanent member of the UN Security Council with lotsa nukes handy, if things get too out of hand.



US has a habit of backing out of deals. US voter sentiment plays a big part.


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## PZ99 (30 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> *"Scott Morrison not fit to be Prime Minister" says ex Liberal Senator.*
> 
> If his colleagues don't trust him, why should anyone else ?
> 
> ...



But She'll still vote for him right ?


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## UMike (30 March 2022)

Sounds like a disgruntled dis-endorsed MP.


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## sptrawler (30 March 2022)

UMike said:


> Sounds like a disgruntled dis-endorsed MP.



Yes it sounds a bit like the Justin Langer syndrome, he wasn't fit to be coach, but it sounds like England think he might be just what they need.  🤣


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## PZ99 (30 March 2022)

Maybe she could get a gig on Home And Away instead... more people were watching that than the budget.



			https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/josh-frydenbergs-federal-budget-speech-smashed-by-mafs/news-story/b1ff77f5349ccf02327b3282ec943d48
		


Good ole idiot box dumbing down the general populace to the flooding gutter and it explains in no small part why advertising actually does work hence the numerous Clive Palmer ads and also the value of preferences on how-to-vote cards. Sheep just follow the herd


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2022)

UMike said:


> Sounds like a disgruntled dis-endorsed MP.




She could have blamed the pre selection process but instead chose to dump on Morrison, as have others.

To lose one colleague is a misfortune, to lose more looks a bit careless.


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## PZ99 (31 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> She could have blamed the pre selection process but instead chose to dump on Morrison, as have others.
> 
> To lose one colleague is a misfortune, to lose more looks a bit careless.



If she's been publicly ratting the party then her pre-selection is entirely predicable...



I think it speaks volumes about both parties and the ScoMoCo just used it for their advantage.

Wasn't it Malco & Co that called them terrorists ? LOL


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## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

At least she got the 'mean girls' off the front page, it's all pretty predictable, i wonder if she was paid for the story? 🤣
The election can't come soon enough, then this pantomime can be over, at last. 
Well for another term anyway.


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## Knobby22 (31 March 2022)

UMike said:


> Sounds like a disgruntled dis-endorsed MP.



He doesn't get along with the women in the Party.
Hanson,


sptrawler said:


> At least she got the 'mean girls' off the front page, it's all pretty predictable, i wonder if she was paid for the story? 🤣
> The election can't come soon enough, then this pantomime can be over, at last.
> Well for another term anyway.



Don't forget Gladys, the female front bencher whose name has been kept quiet, quite a few others especially in NSW do I need to name? He seems to have a problem with the women especially within the Liberal Party. Jackie Lambie and Pauline Hanson also put their boots in yesterday.

I don't know why because everyone can see he is really a just a nice daggy Dad fella and not a ruthless psychopathic politician.


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## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> He doesn't get along with the women in the Party.
> Hanson,



Remember when the media painted Abbott as an attention seeker, for being in the volunteer fire brigade and surf life saving, the media could have actually made a positive out of that, but well that's history and whatever the picture the media paint is the impression the muppets get.



Knobby22 said:


> Don't forget Gladys, the female front bencher whose name has been kept quiet, quite a few others especially in NSW do I need to name? He seems to have a problem with the women especially within the Liberal Party. Jackie Lambie and Pauline Hanson also put their boots in yesterday.
> 
> I don't know why because everyone can see he is really a just a nice daggy Dad fella and not a ruthless psychopathic politician.



Well let's be honest, both sides have exactly the same issue, it's only the media that wants to give some issues more airplay.
Obviously Morrison improves circulation, or getting rid of Morrison helps the media get a more pliable P.M, that they can manipulate better, who knows?
But whatever it is the media want Morrison out and will get it, so we just have to wait and see if they warm to the next one.


----------



## Knobby22 (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Remember when the media painted Abbott as an attention seeker, for being in the volunteer fire brigade and surf life saving, the media could have actually made a positive out of that, but well that's history and whatever the picture the media paint is the impression the muppets get.
> 
> 
> Well let's be honest, both sides have exactly the same issue, it's only the media that wants to give some issues more airplay.
> ...



I though the Labor one got more airplay but she did die. .


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I though the Labor one got more airplay but she did die.



I just can't wait for the election to be over, it is times like this, that brings out the worst in Aussies IMO.
Tribalism stokes emotion.


----------



## Humid (31 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> He doesn't get along with the women in the Party.
> Hanson,
> 
> Don't forget Gladys, the female front bencher whose name has been kept quiet, quite a few others especially in NSW do I need to name? He seems to have a problem with the women especially within the Liberal Party. Jackie Lambie and Pauline Hanson also put their boots in yesterday.
> ...



You missed one


----------



## Humid (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Remember when the media painted Abbott as an attention seeker, for being in the volunteer fire brigade and surf life saving, the media could have actually made a positive out of that, but well that's history and whatever the picture the media paint is the impression the muppets get.
> 
> 
> Well let's be honest, both sides have exactly the same issue, it's only the media that wants to give some issues more airplay.
> ...



Which media wants him out....do you live under a rock?


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Which media wants him out....do you live under a rock?



Thanks for that, explains it perfectly, el muppeto, not one picture of Morrison, even Murdoch have written him off and are starting to promote Frydenberg.
As usual it will take you some time to catch on, as is the case with everything you try to process.  🤣


----------



## Humid (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Thanks for that, explains it perfectly, el muppeto, not one picture of Morrison, even Murdoch have written him off and are starting to promote Frydenberg.
> As usual it will take you some time to catch on, as is the case with everything you try to process.  🤣



A spill then?


----------



## Humid (31 March 2022)

Josh will be lucky to keep his seat


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Josh will be lucky to keep his seat



Is that right, he's Victorian isn't he? Looks a bit yuppyish to me.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

This is unusual timing.








						‘Disdain’: CFMMEU manufacturing division moving to split from union
					

The manufacturing arm of the CFMMEU is attempting to split from the broader union after years of infighting.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
The manufacturing arm of the CFMMEU is attempting to split from the broader union, after years of fighting between the various divisions over the direction of the controversial industrial body.
Michael O’Connor, a former national secretary, said he’d been instructed by the division’s executive to draw up an application to demerge from the Construction, Forestry, Maritime, Mining and Energy Union to end years of acrimony, court action and allegations of electoral interference.


----------



## PZ99 (31 March 2022)

That's a good thing. The CMM_FUall_ or whatever it's called gives unionism a bad name.



sptrawler said:


> Is that right, he's Victorian isn't he? Looks a bit yuppyish to me.



I think his seat is marginal at around 5% so it might need a decent GetUp campaign to shift him.


----------



## wayneL (31 March 2022)

Could be MSM agenda be clearer?

As I have stated numerous times here, I am no fan of Morrison and the LNP; but it is obvious whose feet and hot forehead the msm is anointing with oil (without seeking to be too obvious, well apart from the ABC anyway).

All that is really required now is for Albo to break out in a rendition of Gethsemane....

... Or perhaps that could wait till after 3 years (feels like 90?)


----------



## Knobby22 (1 April 2022)

What a sht fight in NSW. Only 3 selected so far (by Morrison) and even they are going to court.
Morrison wants to control the whole thing personally instead of letting the Liberal members have a say and the grass roots are revolting big time. He had already lost in court but found a way to work around it  by creating a special committee endorsed by the Liberal Executive so the members are  going to court again to stop him.
Are they going to have anyone by election time? Something (or someone) has to give.

I listened to Concetta's speech and this was part of her complaint on his behaviour. I know some Liberal members are extremely angry.
I don't understand why he is even doing this. he obviously thinks he will win the election.









						NSW Liberals still without candidates in key seats, court challenge continues
					

As the federal election closes in, a brutal New South Wales Liberal Party pre-selection brawl appears set to continue, after a judge said he would not rule on a crucial court case today.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## PZ99 (4 April 2022)

Never count yer chikkins  



			https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/labors-primary-vote-drops-as-pm-prepares-to-call-election/news-story/a65ffb6cf7450dc5e98be60042ef962e


----------



## sptrawler (4 April 2022)

I certainly hope not, three more years of the media hammering everything , will just cause mass depression and put everyone on suicide watch IMO.
A change of Government is required IMO.


----------



## wayneL (4 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I certainly hope not, three more years of the media hammering everything , will just cause mass depression and put everyone on suicide watch IMO.
> A change of Government is required IMO.



Labor is not change. We still get the WEF.

Let's go for a real change.


----------



## IFocus (4 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> What a sht fight in NSW. Only 3 selected so far (by Morrison) and even they are going to court.
> Morrison wants to control the whole thing personally instead of letting the Liberal members have a say and the grass roots are revolting big time. He had already lost in court but found a way to work around it  by creating a special committee endorsed by the Liberal Executive so the members are  going to court again to stop him.
> Are they going to have anyone by election time? Something (or someone) has to give.
> 
> ...




I haven't been following the NSW pre selections but wonder if its the religious right (Morrison) trying to take over like WA which was one of the bigger reason that McGowan won by landslide Liberals here are a mess as a result.

There were meetings being called (WA) by older members to save the party haven't heard how its all going.


----------



## moXJO (4 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> I haven't been following the NSW pre selections but wonder if its the religious right (Morrison) trying to take over like WA which was one of the bigger reason that McGowan won by landslide Liberals here are a mess as a result.
> 
> There were meetings being called (WA) by older members to save the party haven't heard how its all going.



Good observation. ScoMo seems like a authoritarian freak and I didn't really think about the religious side of it. I'm a little worried if they somehow pull a win. I think the libs need a clean out.


----------



## IFocus (5 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Good observation. ScoMo seems like a authoritarian freak and I didn't really think about the religious side of it. I'm a little worried if they somehow pull a win. I think the libs need a clean out.



 Lets ask the ladies what they think

I’m a Liberal MP and I cannot vote for the re-election of a Scott Morrison government​Catherine Cusack









						I’m a Liberal MP and I cannot vote for the re-election of a Scott Morrison government | Catherine Cusack
					

The prime minister has ruined the party of Robert Menzies, trashing its values and forfeiting the integrity and values of Australia with his scheming




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (5 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Lets ask the ladies what they think
> 
> I’m a Liberal MP and I cannot vote for the re-election of a Scott Morrison government​Catherine Cusack
> 
> ...



_Catherine Cusack is a NSW Liberal MLC who announced two weeks ago she would resign from parliament over her anger about relief funding for flood victims_


----------



## SirRumpole (5 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> _Catherine Cusack is a NSW Liberal MLC who announced two weeks ago she would resign from parliament over her anger about relief funding for flood victims_



Morrison is obviously a politician  not a leader, and we need less politicians and more leaders.


----------



## wayneL (5 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Morrison is obviously a politician  not a leader, and we need less politicians and more leaders.



True.

But I don't think the majority of Australians would recognise an actual true leader if he or she walked up and poked them in the eye.

Mind you there does seem to be a critical lack of true leader material in our country, so Australians have become accustomed to voting for "politicians".

I have a few scoped out that I think have the potential, but they are nowhere near those leadership roles...

... Ironically, because they're not politicians.

Catch 22... We're @#$&ed


----------



## SirRumpole (5 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> But I don't think the majority of Australians would recognise an actual true leader if he or she walked up and poked them in the eye.




Probably correct. I'll have a shot though and I'm pretty sure you will vomit when I say that Mark McGowan is the nearest we have.

Do what is best for the community, no bull$hit, tell it like it is, and don't be browbeaten by the PC lot.

No one is going to agree with everything he does, but he decides on a course of action and doesn't move when some people bleat.


----------



## wayneL (5 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Probably correct. I'll have a shot though and I'm pretty sure you will vomit when I say that Mark McGowan is the nearest we have.
> 
> Do what is best for the community, no bull$hit, tell it like it is, and don't be browbeaten by the PC lot.
> 
> No one is going to agree with everything he does, but he decides on a course of action and doesn't move when some people bleat.



McGowan is blessed in that there is absolutely zero opposition in this state. 

He has just extended the emergency powers so is so an actual fact is ruling by decree and propaganda rather than by true leadership.

Out in my circle of influence, people are not happy at all. But once again, there is nobody to take him on.... it's pathetic and depressing.


----------



## IFocus (5 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Probably correct. I'll have a shot though and I'm pretty sure you will vomit when I say that Mark McGowan is the nearest we have.
> 
> Do what is best for the community, no bull$hit, tell it like it is, and don't be browbeaten by the PC lot.
> 
> No one is going to agree with everything he does, but he decides on a course of action and doesn't move when some people bleat.




Yep makes unpopular decisions but current hospitalization rates here underlie  he has made some good ones.


----------



## sptrawler (5 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Yep makes unpopular decisions but current hospitalization rates here underlie  he has made some good ones.



To be honest, as long as the right person is in charge, it doesn't matter which party is in office, McGowan and Barnett to a degree prove that. 
Once Barnett was gone the Libs folded like a pack of cards, if a political party is fortunate enough to have a few bright ones that's a plus, but IMO not the norm.


----------



## PZ99 (5 April 2022)

FFS, I really hope we aren't going to be saturated with unfunny garbage from the shovel and babylon bee etc for the next 6 weeks


----------



## Humid (6 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> FFS, I really hope we aren't going to be saturated with unfunny garbage from the shovel and babylon bee etc for the next 6 weeks



As opposed to reality?


----------



## PZ99 (6 April 2022)

That's even worse - his head's too big 

Some time ago there was a polite request from the site owner to keep all the satirical / conspiracy stuff in the conspiracy thread so we didn't have to wade through all that stuff in the other threads.


----------



## Humid (6 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> That's even worse - his head's too big



Chinese hammer and sickle got me


----------



## Joe Blow (6 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> FFS, I really hope we aren't going to be saturated with unfunny garbage from the shovel and babylon bee etc for the next 6 weeks




I'll be moving any into the political satire thread. In fact, moving forward that is the only thread in which anything from The Shovel, Babylon Bee, The Betoota Advocate and other satire websites like them can be posted.


----------



## PZ99 (6 April 2022)

Humid said:


> Chinese hammer and sickle got me



It looks like a paint job on that "debt truck" the Coalition were lumbering around a few years ago. 

Betcha it'll be garaged this year


----------



## basilio (6 April 2022)

Joe Blow said:


> I'll be moving any into the political satire thread. In fact, moving forward that is the only thread in which anything from The Shovel, Babylon Bee, The Betoota Advocate and other satire websites like them can be posted.




Fair enough.  Your call

Frankly I think the "satirical" comments made  on The Shovel about ScoMos relentless  lying self promotion amidst the exposure of his poisonous 2007 campaign to destroy his Lebanese opponent Michael Towke were spot on.  He has no shame.

I can't quite get quite the right humourous tone so let's leave it at that.


----------



## Joe Blow (6 April 2022)

basilio said:


> Fair enough.  Your call
> 
> Frankly I think the "satirical" comments made  on The Shovel about ScoMos relentless  lying self promotion amidst the exposure of his poisonous 2007 campaign to destroy his Lebanese opponent Michael Towke were spot on.  He has no shame.
> 
> I can't quite get quite the right humourous tone so let's leave it at that.




The point can still be made in the political satire thread. Political threads need to be as fact based as possible, and satirical articles tend to distract from that because of their partisan nature. Satire can be enjoyed, but in its own thread.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2022)

What I find pretty disappointing and a bit distressing, is the tendency for the debate to always fall back into the Liebor vs Lieberal binary (with the Nats and Greens being pretty much included in that paradigm)

As we get closer to the election none of any minor parties get any airplay at all and there is no analysis of what they could possibly offer Australia even if only in a "keep the bastards honest" role.

Well apart from the partisan journalists mocking their leadership.

Never mind Clive, or Pauline, or, whomever is getting in the liberal democrats.... What are the platforms of those parties (and others) and what could they offer us given a few seats in the upper house or even the lower house and a possible balance of power?

I already have my primary vote and preferences all mapped out and for specific reasons, having perused each of the party's platform documents... But also observing their behaviour.

I had also contacted the sitting member and each of the candidates I'm interested in in my electorate.

I can tell you that neither the sitting member nor the opposition candidate has even answered my enquiries, we're as my preferred minor party candidate telephoned me the very next day and we had a long and interesting conversation. (Hasluck in case anyone was wondering)

No prizes for guessing who I am putting in the last couple on my ballot paper.


----------



## Knobby22 (6 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> What I find pretty disappointing and a bit distressing, is the tendency for the debate to always fall back into the Liebor vs Lieberal binary (with the Nats and Greens being pretty much included in that paradigm)
> 
> As we get closer to the election none of any minor parties get any airplay at all and there is no analysis of what they could possibly offer Australia even if only in a "keep the bastards honest" role.
> 
> ...



You have Ken Wyatt. He seems OK from this distance. I note you only have 6 candidates (jealous).
My electorate has moved and now I have Bill Shorten and 13 other (mostly terrible) candidates!
I have to make my mind on which order I choose between the Socialist Equality Party or the Socialist Alliance (splitters - Monty Python).
According to the last register they both got 0% of the vote. Even their Mum's wouldn't vote for them


----------



## basilio (6 April 2022)

For the last few months we have had relentless advertising from the United Australia Party essentially trashing all the major parties (bar Nationals) and current political system. The call for "Freedom" . 

Tomorrow we will hear from Clive Palmer on Sky News.  Will there be a coherant set of policies? We'll see

(Meanwhile they still peddle the lies that their "history"goes back to the leadership of Menzies Lyons and Billy Hughes)








						Our Prime Ministers - United Australia Party
					






					www.unitedaustraliaparty.org.au


----------



## basilio (6 April 2022)

Humid said:


> As opposed to reality?
> View attachment 140024




So... Is this Satire ? Political comment?  Poisonous Lying xhit ? Another United Australia ploy ?


----------



## Joe Blow (6 April 2022)

basilio said:


> So... Is this Satire ? Political comment?  Poisonous Lying xhit ? Another United Australia ploy ?




It appears to be electoral campaigning. No idea who has financed the mobile billboard. Feel free to discuss the substance or otherwise of the insinuation being made.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> You have Ken Wyatt. He seems OK from this distance. I note you only have 6 candidates (jealous).
> My electorate has moved and now I have Bill Shorten and 13 other (mostly terrible) candidates!
> I have to make my mind on which order I choose between the Socialist Equality Party or the Socialist Alliance (splitters - Monty Python).
> According to the last register they both got 0% of the vote. Even their Mum's wouldn't vote for them



Ken seems pretty preoccupied with his ministerial portfolio, Hence has so far declined to answer my emails to his office (happy to copy to your p.m. if you are interested in what I had to say).

Fair enough, I do understand ministerial responsibilities. However he is purportedly still our local representative and could at least have one of his apparatchiks to answer with some crappy form letter.

So far... Nuttin'.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2022)

Joe Blow said:


> It appears to be electoral campaigning. No idea who has financed the mobile billboard. Feel free to discuss the substance or otherwise of the insinuation being made.



FWIW

This sort of thing is no different to the Labour Party claiming that the Liberals will privatise Medicare, vis a vis the "Mediscare" campaign.

I personally don't like this sort of thing from either major party, unless there is some sort of bona fides attached, but it does seem to be par for the course unfortunately.

Mind you there is somewhat of a connection because of Victorian Labor party's embracing of the belt and road initiative.

I just wish all of the parties could be absolutely fair dinkum (Hah!)


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> This sort of thing is no different to the Labour Party claiming that the Liberals will privatise Medicare, vis a vis the "Mediscare" campaign.




The Libs are moving that way by removing some procedures from the Medicare list.

To be fair they are also putting more drugs on the Medicare list.

The Anti Labor van is a great example of fake news. If it turns out to be a Liberal exercise then people should be named and shamed and forced to remove it.

I've not heard Albanese making any pro China comments in areas that matter , has anyone else ?


----------



## moXJO (6 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The Libs are moving that way by removing some procedures from the Medicare list.
> 
> To be fair they are also putting more drugs on the Medicare list.
> 
> ...



Yeah he made some pro China remarks (I think recently). Was also endorsed by "global times" or something. 
I didn't double check any of that. Just remember skimming past articles.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I've not heard Albanese making any pro China comments in areas that matter , has anyone else ?



FWIW

It is a conversation worth having, whether Australia remains in the five eyes (whose countries are all obviously going down the **** chute), or China, though it has its own problems is clearly in the ascendancy.

From my own point of view, I really distrust the CCP, but I'm really fond of the mainland Chinese people that I know.

It's kind of like almost every other country vs their people.

Confusing.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2022)

Thou shalt not ask awkward questions, you miserable Prole:


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Thou shalt not ask awkward questions, you miserable Prole:





I saw that. The guy may have just been a concerned citizen or a Liberal stooge out to crash Albo's day.

I think any politician would have done the same.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I saw that. The guy may have just been a concerned citizen or a Liberal stooge out to crash Albo's day.
> 
> I think any politician would have done the same.



IOW only answer softball questions?

"C'mon Man"

Scotty (and to be clear I don't support at all) gets the verbal knuckle in the questions he is asked, yet Albo is sheltered?

Give me a break, that is bulshit.


----------



## moXJO (6 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I saw that. The guy may have just been a concerned citizen or a Liberal stooge out to crash Albo's day.
> 
> I think any politician would have done the same.



Not a good look. Albo obviously can't think on his feet either. Given how sheltered Labor has been leading up to this. Not to mention their total shutdown of questions they don't want to answer. Well they look like a pack of useless, sneaky prcks.  

They must be one implosion away from losing the election and they know it. Playing it safe as the obviously don't have much else.

This isn't an endorsement of libs either. I don't even know what those dills are doing.


----------



## moXJO (6 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> IOW only answer softball questions?
> 
> "C'mon Man"
> 
> ...



Albo getting the "Biden" treatment.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> IOW only answer softball questions?
> 
> "C'mon Man"
> 
> ...




The journalistic rabble is bad enough, but all politician's advisors will shelter them from hecklers. Just watch Morrison cut short press conferences when the questions get tough.


----------



## IFocus (6 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Albo getting the "Biden" treatment.





Nah quite the opposite news site cross for the live speak from Morrison and ministers in full and Albanese gets barely 10 secs, gets repeated time and again.

Good for Labor as the Coalition just keeps either hanging itself or infighting settling old scores.


----------



## moXJO (6 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Nah quite the opposite news site cross for the live speak from Morrison and ministers in full and Albanese gets barely 10 secs, gets repeated time and again.
> 
> Good for Labor as the Coalition just keeps either hanging itself or infighting settling old scores.



Albanese would only want ten seconds. If you work to a woke platform, any longer and you are bound to offend someone. 

Everyone hates scomo so he's just going to run his mouth and lose the election.


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2022)

basilio said:


> So... Is this Satire ? Political comment?  Poisonous Lying xhit ? Another United Australia ploy ?



It's from "advance Australia" apparently. I thought it was the libs for a second.


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2022)

That's why Labor front bench is so quiet, they were issued with a gag order from his Supremeness. 





__





						Loading...
					





					www.news.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (7 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Thou shalt not ask awkward questions, you miserable Prole:





Told you so...









						Scott Morrison walks away after angry pensioner confronts the PM at Newcastle area pub
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison is accused of failing to support older Australians manage the rising cost of living during an unannounced visit to a Newcastle pub.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 April 2022)

The basic problem with politics is that it has become nothing more than a pile of manure and that's being polite.

Whilst I'm aware the thread's about the Australian federal election, this one from the US sums up my thoughts really:



> "At a time of record profits, Big Oil is refusing to increase production to provide the American people some much needed relief at the gas pump," said Rep. Frank Pallone, a *Democrat* from New Jersey.











						Oil bosses vow to boost output and deny profiteering
					

Energy bosses warn there is "no quick fix" to the higher energy costs hitting households.



					www.bbc.com
				




Emphasis mine.

Now this would be the same Democrat party that just months ago was responsible for:



> *The Keystone XL pipeline's developer has halted all construction on the project months after its permit was revoked by the Biden administration.*











						Keystone XL pipeline halted after Biden blocks permit
					

The Canadian developer says it will dismantle their equipment and "ensure a safe termination".



					www.bbc.com
				




Now that's from the US but sums up my thoughts on politics in general pretty damn well really.

Step 1 = Create the problem.

Step 2 = Blame someone else for the problem you created.

Step 3 = Try and claim credit for pressuring someone, who opposed you at Step 1, into fixing the problem you created.

Labor, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, Greens, Nationals, One Nation, Palmer, Conservative and anyone else - all cut from the same cloth unfortunately.

Whilst I've used a current US example, largely because my point was non-partisan in the Australian context so I intentionally picked a current foreign example, there are plenty from this country as well which follow the same pattern. The whole thing's akin to an arsonist who goes around lighting fires then tries to claim credit for putting them out.

The whole thing needs reform in my view to hold all sides to account for blunders that in business would see pretty much anyone out of a job.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Told you so...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course, Morrison is a mongrel and would not have expected anything else. 

This is why folks shouldn't be voting for either of them.


----------



## macca (7 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Told you so...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think Scomo was very polite and spent quite a bit of time with that bloke, he had ample opportunity to let off steam and Scomo was still polite and passed him onto an aide.

I don't consider that "walking away" which implies ignoring someone, I do recall Hawke calling some one a silly old buggar, at least Scomo was polite.

He is on a tour, he can't give more than a few minutes to anybody

The bloke was mainly going crook about the pension, I have a number of friends who live on the pension, they all drive cars, they go out to lunch regularly, they go on holidays every year, not many countries in the world you can do that for free.

My mate says their pension is $40k pa and it costs them $20k to live so life is good.


----------



## PZ99 (7 April 2022)

macca said:


> I think Scomo was very polite and spent quite a bit of time with that bloke, he had ample opportunity to let off steam and Scomo was still polite and passed him onto an aide.
> 
> I don't consider that "walking away" which implies ignoring someone, I do recall Hawke calling some one a silly old buggar, at least Scomo was polite.
> 
> ...



Agreed. ScoMo only walked away when the bloke starting swearing at him - he got more time than he deserved IMO

That pension is OK if you're debt free / not paying rent. I know a lot of people who live comfortably on it.


----------



## sptrawler (7 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Agreed. ScoMo only walked away when the bloke starting swearing at him - he got more time than he deserved IMO
> 
> That pension is OK if you're debt free / not paying rent. I know a lot of people who live comfortably on it.



It is interesting, Morrison is toast mainly due to the media constant attacks, but that's politics if the media want you out they usually get their way.
The pensioner is interesting, as you say they get a pretty good lifestyle, if they own their house and have a bit of super, that guy worked in the mines for 30 years  so he would have some super.
My mate the garbo retired two weeks ago, he has spent that time going through the hoops at Centrelink, but he will get the full single pension and has about $200k in super a brand new car etc.
So he get $26k a year plus all the perks and will draw $20k out of the super, that is more than the wife and I drew from our SMSF last year to live on, people are turning into a weird lot IMO.
There is screaming about how much debt there is from handing out assistance during coved, now it is being drowned out by the screaming of I want more, people just can't be filled up these days IMO.
The next Government is going to have just as much trouble.


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is interesting, Morrison is toast mainly due to the media constant attacks, but that's politics if the media want you out they usually get their way.
> The pensioner is interesting, as you say they get a pretty good lifestyle, if they own their house and have a bit of super, that guy worked in the mines for 30 years  so he would have some super.
> My mate the garbo retired two weeks ago, he has spent that time going through the hoops at Centrelink, but he will get the full single pension and has about $200k in super a brand new car etc.
> So he get $26k a year plus all the perks and will draw $20k out of the super, that is more than the wife and I drew from our SMSF last year to live on, people are turning into a weird lot IMO.
> ...



Your post about Australians becoming "wingers" in another thread is spot on. People will whinge about anything. A lot centred around selfishness, or political scoring. We get $hit politicians because Australians have become a $hit society of self entitled wants.
Media just amplifies it. Twitter is a trash pile and makes you realise the level of nasty idiots in this country.

 Realistically, this government has done a lot right. From streamlined services, responses to emergencies, business regulations. I think there were tweaks to the system that were good.

However there was a huge lack of vision and a breakaway from core principles around rights. Some serious lack of respect for the role of serving the Australian people with a bit of integrity as well. Scomo and libs failed hard in this regard.


----------



## sptrawler (7 April 2022)

Spot on @moXJO the current airing of dirty laundry, by both sides, just reinforces peoples low opinion of politicians in general.
If they can't even show common courteousy and dignity to each other in the same party, what are the chances of them dealing with our issues in a measured and compassionate way?
IMO politics and the media today, has just become a pig pen of human flotsam, floating around is a sea of moral filth, which is tearing down the fabric of Australian society. 
Australia should change the national anthem to the song, 'What about me'
My rant for the month.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

@moXJO @sptrawler 

Nail.
Head.
Hit.

I just as a society we need to start thinking about how to climb our way out this cesspit. 

Unfortunately to me it seems like an abscess that just won't burst; a malodourous of self-sustaining and self-replicating purulence that is poisoning the entire of the organism.


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is interesting, Morrison is toast mainly due to the media constant attacks,




What!! 

Morrison is being attacked constantly not by the media or Labor  but from his own party almost on a daily basis.

Labor rarely get a sound bite for staged announcements or attacks simply because they are squeezed out by the continuous behaviour reports on Morrison by his own side.

Liberal party MPs friggin hate him for good reason plus he has done SFA during his term except turn up late.

I take that past statement back he does do a lovely press conference some time with a very nice pamphlet  and has thrown (wasted) more money at profitable companies than any Australian government past or future.

Ran Robo debt illegally to steal money off the poor sort up sums up your hero.


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on @moXJO the current airing of dirty laundry, by both sides, just reinforces peoples low opinion of politicians in general.
> If they can't even show common courteousy and dignity to each other in the same party, what are the chances of them dealing with our issues in a measured and compassionate way?
> IMO politics and the media today, has just become a pig pen of human flotsam, floating around is a sea of moral filth, which is tearing down the fabric of Australian society.
> Australia should change the national anthem to the song, 'What about me'
> My rant for the month.





Don't listen to 882 am then Karen central.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

I love how the left has co-opted "Karen". 

It's a bit like the word "fulsome",  as currently used it bears no resemblance to the actual original meaning of the word. (Recent eg: Brendan
 Murphy's recent response to Alex Antic's question regarding the definition of a woman).

But I digress...


----------



## StockyGuy (7 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I love how the left has co-opted "Karen".
> 
> It's a bit like the word "fulsome",  as currently used it bears no resemblance to the actual original meaning of the word. (Recent eg: Brendan
> Murphy's recent response to Alex Antic's question regarding the definition of a woman).
> ...




To digress further, annoyingly once a twisted usage over time becomes established, even entering  the dictionary, you look silly to those who never knew the earlier, standard meaning if you don't observe the new one.

But beware things are often more complicated.  While I tend to think of fulsome as excessively flattering, Wiktionary gives three other meanings for that adjective.  The very original etymology being simply "abundant".


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> To digress further, annoyingly once a twisted usage over time becomes established, even entering  the dictionary, you look silly to those who never knew the earlier, standard meaning if you don't observe the new one.
> 
> But beware things are often more complicated.  While I tend to think of fulsome as excessively flattering, Wiktionary gives three other meanings for that adjective.  The very original etymology being simply "abundant".



Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Down the rabbit hole....

In law, and by extension in parliament and its various committees, words, and indeed punctuation have precise meanings.

Perhaps Mr Murphy should avoid words whose meaning has become somewhat nebulous... Yes, nitpicking and hair splitting in the context of the hearing mentioned, but one can imagine instances where it might matter a great deal.

I think I would have used a different word.

The thesaurus is actually quite illuminating here:


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I love how the left has co-opted "Karen".
> 
> It's a bit like the word "fulsome",  as currently used it bears no resemblance to the actual original meaning of the word. (Recent eg: Brendan
> Murphy's recent response to Alex Antic's question regarding the definition of a woman).
> ...





Would that be like "woke"  or maybe "snowflake" heaven forbid...


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Would that be like "woke" or maybe "snowflake" heaven forbid...



Woke in its current meaning is destroying the Left much as the Right is destroying itself.

There’s plenty who’ll agree with past and ongoing Left ideals such as (for examples) action on climate change, gay marriage, equal opportunity, voluntary euthanasia of the terminally ill, unions, welfare as a safety net and so on.

Where they’ll absolutely draw the line is with the idea that a child can state their gender as “cat” or that a fictional movie made decades ago ought be banned because someone born 30 years later doesn’t like it.

Suffice to say I’ve seen a few friends and associates abandon the entire Left cause over what they see as it having become a comedic farce with that sort of stuff. It’s alienating quite a few I think.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Would that be like "woke"  or maybe "snowflake" heaven forbid...



Careful, you may be hoist by your own petard there


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Would that be like "woke"  or maybe "snowflake" heaven forbid...



It's interesting that these practitioners have all but disappeared. It's similar in the US that they have hidden the "Squad" from view before midterms. 

It seems being "woke" is so deeply unpopular that they have to hide it.

Similar on the right side of politics that those pushing "Freedom" are also invisible to a degree. 

So it's all on in "centre land" hopefully politics sorts out in the sensible area.


----------



## StockyGuy (7 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Down the rabbit hole....
> 
> In law, and by extension in parliament and its various committees, words, and indeed punctuation have precise meanings.
> 
> ...





Yeppers..

I don't meant to be fulsome (meaning 1. Offensive to good taste, tactless, overzealous, excessive) so, as this exchange is already fulsome (meaning 3. Marked by fullness; abundant, copious), I shall, not meaning to be fulsome (meaning 2. Excessively flattering (connoting insincerity)),  declare your fulsome (meaning 4. Fully developed; mature) victory.


----------



## macca (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> What!!
> 
> Morrison is being attacked constantly not by the media or Labor  but from his own party almost on a daily basis.
> 
> ...




I think he is attacked by everyone just like most pollies, it is impossible to please everyone !

I agree that Robodebt was a disgrace, completely wrong in the way it calculated payments, it was wrong to persist with it and it should never have been defended in court, just so wrong  in every way.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> Yeppers..
> 
> I don't meant to be fulsome (meaning 1. Offensive to good taste, tactless, overzealous, excessive) so, as this exchange is already fulsome (meaning 3. Marked by fullness; abundant, copious), I shall, not meaning to be fulsome (meaning 2. Excessively flattering (connoting insincerity)),  declare your fulsome (meaning 4. Fully developed; mature) victory.



Appreciated that 

Great laugh, thanks


----------



## sptrawler (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> sums up your hero.



The new left, pigeon hole people, tag them with a label, then commence the bullying.
You guys must be running some sort of school, you have the format down pat. 
I don't see many in the thread, that actually make personal comments, as to who people vote or don't vote for apart from you and your mate.🤣
I've actually stated I was hit by robo debt and I've stated I wont be voting for Morrison and I've also stated I voted for McGowan, so why the niggle?
Just because a Government isn't to my taste, doesn't mean everything they did was appalling and it also doesn't mean that all the blame laid at their feet by the media was accurate and unbiased.
So as always, I take the pragmatic approach and vote for who I feel will offer the best options for Australia, why not keep the snide comments out?


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> It's interesting that these practitioners have all but disappeared. It's similar in the US that they have hidden the "Squad" from view before midterms.
> 
> It seems being "woke" is so deeply unpopular that they have to hide it.
> 
> ...





Meaning of "woke" Webster Dic

*: *aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

The extreme right took that and poisoned it into an insult used here by many who clearly misunderstand its meaning unless you subscribe to extreme right views..


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Meaning of "woke" Webster Dic
> 
> *: *aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
> 
> The extreme right took that and poisoned it into an insult used here by many who clearly misunderstand its meaning unless you subscribe to extreme right views..



There is a big difference between a word like woke and a word like fulsome.

Originally woke was used in a grammatically incorrect fashion, hence subject to every liberal interpretation.

It was, and is, a slang term.

Therefore like any number of slang terms subject to a match more dynamic evolution of use and meaning.

"Fully sick" anyone?

<Edited - this part could have been wooded a little bit too strongly, apologies>

it's not correct English.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Down the rabbit hole....
> 
> In law, and by extension in parliament and its various committees, words, and indeed punctuation have precise meanings.
> 
> ...




Hmm. I always thought that 'fulsome' meant a well endowed woman.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2022)

This is a pretty good point weather the current prime minister is Lieberal, or Liebor... or other.

Especially seeing as he started talking in early Anglo Saxon. No matter what we think of the current office holder, there should be some sort of respect for the office, IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> This is a pretty good point weather the current prime minister is Lieberal, or Liebor... or other.
> 
> Especially seeing as he started talking in early Anglo Saxon. No matter what we think of the current office holder, there should be some sort of respect for the office, IMO.





Yeah well... government decisions affect people's lives and those living in ivory towers should occasionally be reminded of the stresses that those less fortunate have to bear.

Politicians and public servants are the most coddled people in the community (apart from celebrities but they are not using public money).

They get driven around in limo's or flown around in jets at our expense and only come out to talk to the great unwashed at election time so they should have to put up with a dose of reality occasionally.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 April 2022)

More bull$hit spending on 'the mates' ?

What on earth is this all about ?









						Charity director remains tight-lipped about how $18m program will run with no current staff, website or office
					

A mystery foundation established less than a year ago by a businessman with connections to the royal family has managed to secure more than $18 million in federal funding, but the man behind it is refusing to outline how the program will run or outline when it will launch.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Meaning of "woke" Webster Dic
> 
> *: *aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
> 
> The extreme right took that and poisoned it into an insult used here by many who clearly misunderstand its meaning unless you subscribe to extreme right views..



Uh no, "wokesters" are indeed wankers. If anything it seems to mean "hypocrite d1ckbag". The lefts mental disorder turned it into a joke.


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The new left, pigeon hole people, tag them with a label, then commence the bullying.
> You guys must be running some sort of school, you have the format down pat.
> I don't see many in the thread, that actually make personal comments, as to who people vote or don't vote for apart from you and your mate.🤣
> I've actually stated I was hit by robo debt and I've stated I wont be voting for Morrison and I've also stated I voted for McGowan, so why the niggle?
> ...




Sorry SP didn't mean to offend, how ever you continue to blame the media for Morrisons failures which I don't understand.


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Uh no, "wokesters" are indeed wankers. If anything it seems to mean "hypocrite d1ckbag". The lefts mental disorder turned it into a joke.




Again if you subscribe to the extreme right then that's what it means poison politics 101.


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Again if you subscribe to the extreme right then that's what it means poison politics 101.



I haven't seen much "truth" or even reality from alleged "woke". If by "extreme right" you mean people without mental issues then yes.


----------



## sptrawler (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Sorry SP didn't mean to offend, how ever you continue to blame the media for Morrisons failures which I don't understand.



I don't blame the media for Morrisons failures, he has to own them, what I blame the media for is for never acknowledging achievements and it isn't just Morrison this has really been going on since Howard.
We have had a revolving door of P.M's since 2007 and it has been driven by a media focusing on the negative aspect of politics and policies, there is never any reporting on the positives that actually give Australians one of the best lifestyles in the World.
People wonder why we have a huge growing problem with mental health issues and suicide, maybe if the media gave equal time to reporting on positive outcomes as they do negative outcomes, our youth may feel life actually is worth living.
So it isn't so much a Morrison thing as a media thing with me, Albanese will have the same problems and I will say the same things.
Albanese can't be held responsible for every issue that happens in Australia, if he can be we don't need elections and departments to look after various functions, we just need one person.
The media have made it that difficult for Morrison to function, he just has to go, it is only his stubbornness that has seen him do a full term, which is the first for a P.M since 2007.
That fact in itself tells us something, all of the P.M's can't have been that bad that none managed a full term and it is public opinion that usually overturns a P.M, who drives public opinion?
I certainly hope the media cuts Albo some slack, because I can't see anyone behind him, that I would like driving the big chair.
You don't have to apologies, just  ask me why I think something, I like to challenge my beliefs and I don't blindly follow one party and I can actually change my mind on an issue.
That's why I'm still married to the same lady after 45 years.


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> I haven't seen much "truth" or even reality from alleged "woke". If by "extreme right" you mean people without mental issues then yes.





You still fail to understand the meaning of 'woke" and attribute the extreme rights poisoned meaning which unfortunately makes you look like a real stooge. (apologies if it offends )

Ironically its this sort of stooge behaviour that best describes the reason poor whites in the US that vote Republican, you know turkeys voting for Christmas.


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> You still fail to understand the meaning of 'woke" and attribute the extreme rights poisoned meaning which unfortunately makes you look like a real stooge. (apologies if it offends )
> 
> Ironically its this sort of stooge behaviour that best describes the reason poor whites in the US that vote Republican, you know turkeys voting for Christmas.



I understand it. Not sure the "poison" left do.
It's the stooge behaviour of the left in the US that led us here.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> You still fail to understand the meaning of 'woke" and attribute the extreme rights poisoned meaning which unfortunately makes you look like a real stooge. (apologies if it offends )



Whilst I'm aware of the original meaning, I'll argue that it's one of those words where an alternative meaning has become the predominant one in practice.

Wrong or right, if I hear the term used in 2022 then odds are I'll be correct if I assume it's being used in the more extreme, negative context.

It's not the only word where the meaning has been radically changed, indeed some have been reversed within my lifetime thus far ("dropped" is a good example there), but it's an unwinnable argument. 

I'll focus on what's really being said not the words as such.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Ironically its this sort of stooge behaviour that best describes the reason poor whites in the US that vote Republican, you know turkeys voting for Christmas.





moXJO said:


> It's the stooge behaviour of the left in the US that led us here.



When anything goes to an extreme the usual result is it then swings firmly in the opposite direction.

Current politics seems to be full of that on multiple issues. One side takes an extreme position then the opposing side responds with an even more extreme position in the other direction.

That seems to be happening with everything from biology to physics and isn't helping society at all. It's a tug of war, half the people on one side of the rope and half the people on the other side all pulling frantically, expending great amounts of energy going nowhere. 

Meanwhile in the real world there's a housing crisis, government deficits, energy supply, climate change, that we're having floods now and will have drought in due course, wage stagnation, war in Ukraine, diplomatic relations with China, underemployment and intergenerational poverty, sexism / racism / ageism, environmental degradation, education, health, roads and many more.

We'd be far better off to stop pulling society apart with extremism and collectively walk forward.


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> When anything goes to an extreme the usual result is it then swings firmly in the opposite direction.
> 
> Current politics seems to be full of that on multiple issues. One side takes an extreme position then the opposing side responds with an even more extreme position in the other direction.
> 
> ...



It isn't going unnoticed @Smurf1976 the state of Australian politics at the moment is a disgrace, the infighting, tit for tat public finger pointing by members of a both parties, just shows the lack of quality politicians currently in parliament.
Why would a self respecting, honest and patriotic person even put up for pre selection. Canberra is more like a soap opera, than the political heart of Australia, where our future is decided and guided, it's a bloody appalling situation IMO.









						‘Riddled with factionalism’: Ex-RBA board and Liberal member blasts both parties
					

The next government must begin reforming the Australian economy, according to Roger Corbett, but the major parties are riddled by factionalism which is holding change back.




					www.smh.com.au
				



One of Australia’s most respected businessmen has blasted both major political parties for being “riddled with factionalism”, warning internal disputes are putting desperately needed economic reforms on hold.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Why would a self respecting, honest and patriotic person even put up for pre selection. Canberra is more like a soap opera, than the political heart of Australia, where our future is decided and guided, it's a bloody appalling situation IMO.




Exactly. While I may have sympathies for the general policies of the ALP , I could never join the Party because of the browbeating by union heavies and their distrust of anyone who doesn't have "the right stuff" according to them which means going through the process of being union organisers and climbing that particular tree. They don't even let people in unless they are union members.

So inclusive, not.


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Exactly. While I may have sympathies for the general policies of the ALP , I could never join the Party because of the browbeating by union heavies and their distrust of anyone who doesn't have "the right stuff" according to them which means going through the process of being union organisers and climbing that particular tree. They don't even let people in unless they are union members.
> 
> So inclusive, not.



Politics has gone the way of many other careers that were referred to as "callings" eg nursing, teaching etc,  it is now about what people can get out of it, rather than what they can give to it IMO.
They can't even get consensus amongst themselves, without dragging it out into the public arena, how the hell do they expect to bipartisan agreement.
Both sides are as bad and it boils down to the fact there aren't common goals to further Australia's cause, there are only personal goals, which involves keeping the paypacket and the perks IMO.
Politics is attracting, exactly the opposite type of person, it needs to attract IMO. A third want to be movie stars, another third want to sit down the back and say FA and the rest are trying to keep their $hit together and work out a plan then implement it and hope it's right before the next election. 🤣
There is a reason that some really good politicians pull the pin when they are at their prime, dealing with the rest of them must do their heads in, much easier just to leave and go into the private sector, more money, less crap and if the idiot sitting next to you is useless they are sacked rather than having to be voted out. 

Some that come to mind are Crean, Ferguson, Costello, Wyatt, Gillard.
It is really coming to the fore in State politics IMO, like the guy  from Tassie, everyone is shocked, he's doing a great job, apparently on top of his game then pulls up stumps. Why? because he is probably sick of the nonsense that is probably happening behind the scenes.

Same in W.A Barnett was a one man band, why because probably no one else in the team new how to play an instrument, he left and the Liberals in W.A are still lost in the wilderness, no one even knows the leader ATM.

McGowan, ask any person on the street to name another W.A labor member and they wouldn't be able to, that probably goes back to what we are talking about, most in there are useless.
The Premier has to be the treasurer, the only one who can talk on t.v because he knows he's surrounded by muppets, he can't delegate anything and has to be overseeing everything IMO.
That becomes wearing on a person and their family, especially these days where we have 24hour news and tag team reporters trying to blow your feet off.
This isn't party specific, it is politics in general
All just my opinion as usual. Anyway I had better get off politics, i'll lift a safety v/v.


----------



## IFocus (8 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> When anything goes to an extreme the usual result is it then swings firmly in the opposite direction.
> 
> Current politics seems to be full of that on multiple issues. One side takes an extreme position then the opposing side responds with an even more extreme position in the other direction.
> 
> ...





Smurf please forgive me I am just venting my frustrations, the practice of culture wars by the extreme right and right side of politics particularly in the US and the flow on into Australia politics drives me nuts.

As I said earlier its literary Turkeys voting for Xmas. 

Republicans in the US and a large part of the conservative movement here in Oz only ever see the peasants (you and I) as a resource and to capture votes they then run the culture war BS simply because they don't have anything else. 

This all creates divisions which is the sole intent so that tribalism can over Trump supporters fit this concept nicely. 

The "woke" thing is a prime example


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2022)

Craig Kelly leader of the United Australia Party egged and called a Nazi.








						Craig Kelly egged by angry woman at Melbourne gathering
					

Footage posted to social media appears to show United Australia Party leader Craig Kelly being egged at a gathering in Melbourne on Friday.




					thenewdaily.com.au
				




In a statement. Victoria Police said a witness on a bicycle followed the women as they ran from the South Yarra park to a vehicle waiting nearby.

They said the cyclist parked his bike in front of the car, before the male driver of the car allegedly ran over his foot, causing minor injuries.

The cyclist then followed the car to nearby Toorak Road, where the driver exchanged details with the cyclist before driving away with the two women.


----------



## moXJO (8 April 2022)

Here's another example of the idiocy 


			https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/small-cake-shop-brutally-trolled-for-simple-gesture-during-pm-visit/news-story/d50c23fe19d9100f4cc126f46bae8ad8
		


Personally I see them helping to get the libs get back in.


----------



## moXJO (8 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Smurf please forgive me I am just venting my frustrations, the practice of culture wars by the extreme right and right side of politics particularly in the US and the flow on into Australia politics drives me nuts.
> 
> As I said earlier its literary Turkeys voting for Xmas.
> 
> ...



You do realise it's been the "woke" screeching like banshees, eating up every media lie and running with it?


----------



## macca (8 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Here's another example of the idiocy
> 
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/small-cake-shop-brutally-trolled-for-simple-gesture-during-pm-visit/news-story/d50c23fe19d9100f4cc126f46bae8ad8
> ...



me too, I posted this under Scomo thread


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> The "woke" thing is a prime example



I think you're fighting a losing battle with that one.   

Woke is one of those words that has been so contorted in its use and meaning that the alternative new meaning is the only one of relevance going forward. 

It's like certain expletives or insults that have been around for decades. The word had some other actual meaning but these days the alternative use is so widely known and used that use of it in the original context would be deemed totally inappropriate and leave most people confused.

Even in professional and technical fields that is true, there's a few words that are now actively avoided since whilst factually correct, the ignorant masses have butchered their meaning and done so widely enough that it's best to avoid using them so as to avoid confusion in the event that someone reads the document and is only aware of the butchered alternative meaning. 

Ideally we'd keep the proper meaning and put the fools back in their box but in reality it's a losing battle trying to do so.


----------



## wayneL (9 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think you're fighting a losing battle with that one.
> 
> Woke is one of those words that has been so contorted in its use and meaning that the alternative new meaning is the only one of relevance going forward.
> 
> ...



The world liberal in politics is actually quite a funny one also. It has quite different meanings in the USA, Britain, and here.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> The world liberal in politics is actually quite a funny one also. It has quite different meanings in the USA, Britain, and here.



Red in the USA is the colour of the Republicans.

@rederob had better change his name.


----------



## rederob (9 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Red in the USA is the colour of the Republicans.
> 
> @rederob had better change his name.



You heading for a *blue *with me @SirRumpole?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 April 2022)

rederob said:


> You heading for a *blue *with me @SirRumpole?



I think you may be yellow.


----------



## rederob (9 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you may be yellow.



I have been *green *all my life.
Always on the "go."
Although for a brief period at Uni my friends thought I was in with the "orange" people, but they were confused because I followed Sri Chinmoy and not Rajneesh.

Anyway, how come the yellow peril are "reds"?  
And red Indians are bronze?

Luckily there is no confusion in the All Blacks' team:






That's white, if I am not wong.


----------



## Craton (10 April 2022)

The date is set: 21st of May and six weeks of the ballyhoo, urgh.... lol


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2022)

Craton said:


> The date is set: 21st of May and six weeks of the ballyhoo, urgh.... lol



A 6 week campaign is ridiculous, they have been campaigning for 3 months already.


----------



## Craton (10 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A 6 week campaign is ridiculous, they have been campaigning for 3 months already.



True, but now they'll really ratchet it up.


----------



## Knobby22 (10 April 2022)

Craton said:


> True, but now they'll really ratchet it up.



I think the public may switch off.
Honestly after COVID, the Ukraine war and everything else I will struggle.


----------



## Craton (10 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I think the public may switch off.
> Honestly after COVID, the Ukraine war and everything else I will struggle.



I'm hearing ya.
After being a Labor stronghold my electorate was gerrymandered into the seat of Parkes in the early/mid 1980's. It has been a Nationals shoe in since Parkes came into being.

I've alerted/emailed our incumbent on numerous occasions that if BJ is still in the party, let alone the leader, no way will I'll even consider voting Nationals.

Thus, been looking at the alternatives to the same old same old majors in my electorate.

Unsurprisingly, I've not seen a candidate for Pauline or Clive listed.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 April 2022)

Just spotted that one of the major newspapers has published on the comments of quite a few people, members of the public, on what they see as the top priority issues.

Well guess what?

With a single exception they all picked issues broadly in line with the ones that same media organisation pushes and none took the opposing view, the only exception being somewhat neutral in that regard not really on the other side as such. Well how about that? What a truly amazing coincidence.....  

Regardless of who wins the election, one thing I'd really like to see is media reform and a complete end to the whole "tribal" Left versus Right thing and the idea that individuals and even the media are in one camp or the other on everything.


----------



## PZ99 (11 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Never count yer chikkins
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/labors-primary-vote-drops-as-pm-prepares-to-call-election/news-story/a65ffb6cf7450dc5e98be60042ef962e



Labor falls again.

_In a worrying sign for Anthony Albanese however, the latest Newspoll reveals Labor’s primary vote has now *fallen to 37 per cent *– a drop of more than 4 points just over a fortnight.

In 2019, former Labor leader Bill Shorten also started the campaign with a primary vote of *39 per cent before recording just 33 per cent* on the day of the May 18, 2019 election._





__





						Loading...
					





					www.news.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just spotted that one of the major newspapers has published on the comments of quite a few people, members of the public, on what they see as the top priority issues.
> 
> Well guess what?
> 
> ...




I wonder if this is any different..








						Vote Compass is back this election season with the largest survey of voter attitudes in the country
					

Which side of the political spectrum do you stand on? How socially progressive or conservative are you? All of this explained and more, only with Vote Compass.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

Craton said:


> True, but now they'll really ratchet it up.



I counted 40 days and 40 nights.
I expect the public with Ark up at this.

And @sptrawler will be tearing his hair out because the media will ... well, it's the media, so @sptrawler will always be tearing his hair out.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

The media will, they already have tripped up Albo, who had a Hewson and the GST on a cake moment.
Oh it's just an SpTrawler thing eh Rob? 😂  😂  😂
Watch this space, I did say Albo's achilles heel was he doesn't think fast on his feet, day one shows the media know it too.
Day one, Albo 0 media 1





__





						Loading...
					





					www.dailytelegraph.com.au
				



From the article:
_Anthony Albanese has told colleagues he “f***ked up” and it “won’t happen again”.
It was agonising, sloppy and by any definition a trainwreck press conference.

And now every galah in the pet shop, as Paul Keating once said, will be asking him ‘gotcha’ questions for the rest of the campaign_.

_The Labor leader made a swift exit after he was stumped by questions about the Reserve Bank’s cash rate and the unemployment rate_.
_According to witnesses, he tore strips off himself and told colleagues that it was not a good start — an understatement — and that he should have known the answers to the journalists’ questions_.

_Mr Albanese refused to say what the cash rate was three times, before admitting he also didn’t know the jobless figures in Launceston.

“The national unemployment rate at the moment is … I think it’s 5.4 … sorry,” he said. “I’m not sure what it is.”

Of course, the current unemployment rate is 4 per cent — a level not seen since the 1970s — a far cry from 5 per cent_.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The media will, they already have tripped up Albo, who had a Hewson and the GST on a cake moment.
> Oh it's just an SpTrawler thing eh Rob? 😂  😂  😂
> Day one, Albo 0 media 1
> 
> ...




At least Katie Gallagher knew the answer, and the electorate has the memory of a goldfish, so Albo will be ok.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> At least Katie Gallagher knew the answer, and the electorate has the memory of a goldfish, so Albo will be ok.



Actually that doesn't matter, because if the media turn on him, that clip will be played every time the goldfish comes around the bowl. 😂


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Actually that doesn't matter, because if the media turn on him, that clip will be played every time the goldfish comes around the bowl. 😂



Plenty of clips of Scomo too.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Plenty of clips of Scomo too.



Absolutely, I was just pointing out to Rob, that the media are merciless and they will do anything for a headline. He thinks I imagine it. 

Even Paul Keating knew what they are like, as per my last quote.
_And now every galah in the pet shop, as Paul Keating once said, will be asking him ‘gotcha’ questions for the rest of the campaign._

It could turn into a who can get the best blooper competition_._
Now Morrison will start and say, this is why Albo was playing the small target game, because he doesn't understand the issues and also silly Billy will be sharpening the knives. Albo should have started his campaign ages ago to get over these nerves IMO_._


----------



## PZ99 (11 April 2022)

This is why Labor don't win elections anymore. Their campaign strategies are inept.

Cue: the _real_ Albo ala Gillard... _moving forrrrrward..._


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> This is why Labor don't win elections anymore. Their campaign strategies are inept.
> 
> Cue: the _real_ Albo ala Gillard... _moving forrrrrward..._




Oppositions rarely win elections, Governments lose them.

It's always been so.

The Howard government got tired, 'mean and tricky' and that describes the current one as well.


----------



## PZ99 (11 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Oppositions rarely win elections, Governments lose them.
> 
> It's always been so.
> 
> The Howard government got tired, 'mean and tricky' and that describes the current one as well.



The difference is the Coalition always gain ground during election campaigns

Even the Howard govt picked up a lot of ground in 2007 and almost won the next election because of the "real" Julia Gillard and then totally cleaned up after that despite being led by a dill that lasted half a term.

There is something seriously wrong with Labor's preparation and a lot of it has to do with homework.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> The difference is the Coalition always gain ground during election campaigns
> 
> Even the Howard govt picked up a lot of ground in 2007 and almost won the next election because of the "real" Julia Gillard and then totally cleaned up after that despite being led by a dill that lasted half a term.
> 
> *There is something seriously wrong with Labor's preparation and a lot of it has to do with homework.*




Yes I think you are right. Big on the grand plan but less so on the detail.

Let's hope they sharpen up soon.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Oppositions rarely win elections, Governments lose them.
> 
> It's always been so.
> 
> The Howard government got tired, 'mean and tricky' and that describes the current one as well.



IMO Howard lost because Labor were sharp, Rudd was a showman and they really just presented Rudd as a younger, more in tune Howard, they basically just agreed with Howard's good policies and  focused on his bad one 'work choices'.

This time Albo has not made a public appearance and is now trying to sell himself and his story in 6 weeks, two problems with that, one there is a lot of issues to cover and two he can't afford stuff ups, because he doesn't have time to fix it.

If the media trip him up again the wheels will get wobbly because Albo will have a lot riding on him and the pressure from outside the party as well as from inside will be enormous, the mean girls wont be happy, they have been on the opposition bench for a long time.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> IMO Howard lost because Labor were sharp, Rudd was a showman and they really just presented Rudd as a younger, more in tune Howard, they basically just agreed with Howard's good policies and  focused on his bad one 'work choices'.
> 
> This time Albo has not made a public appearance and is now trying to sell himself and his story in 6 weeks, two problems with that, one there is a lot of issues to cover and two he can't afford stuff ups, because he doesn't have time to fix it.
> 
> If the media trip him up again the wheels will get wobbly because Albo will have a lot riding on him and the pressure from outside the party as well as from inside will be enormous, the mean girls wont be happy, they have been on the opposition bench for a long time.




With such a long campaign, everyone is bound to make gaffes. Morrison has made plenty, hoses, holidays , the price of bread to name a few.

What it all boils down to is the old question, "what's in it for me ?"


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

I certainly hope Albo gets in, we have had way too many egos in the last 10 years, its about time politics got back to basics rather than being a media side show.
Governments are so much better when they operate smoothly in the background IMO.


----------



## moXJO (11 April 2022)

Media: " OK Albo here's an easy question. Whats the current unemployment rate"

Albo: "It's 2pm"


----------



## moXJO (11 April 2022)

Months to polish and stuffs it up the first day. 
Are the ripping bongs in the tearoom or something.


----------



## wayneL (11 April 2022)

I will bet every member of ASF knew the cash rate without even thinking about it, and probably the unemployment rate too.

Yet the alternative prime minister didn't know?

Disclaimer: I have no idea of the price of milk.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I will bet every member of ASF knew the cash rate without even thinking about it, and probably the unemployment rate too.
> 
> Yet the alternative prime minister didn't know?
> 
> Disclaimer: I have no idea of the price of milk.




I was very surprised he didn't know the cash rate, it's been the same for months.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

I'm not sure if Tanya is being helpful.

‘Elections aren’t memory tests’ Tanya Plibersek defends Anthony Albanese's mistake | ABC News​
They actually are, a P.M is constantly given politically sensitive questions and expected to know the answers on all current subjects, it was the pausing and the ahhing that toppled Abbott. He never sounded as though he was completely on top of the issue, if he was given time it was o.k, but the media don't give P.M's time.
What is the main problem Biden has? So Tanya saying it isn't a memory test, really I think she could have thought of a better out.


----------



## PZ99 (11 April 2022)

I reckon they should ask Albo the very same questions tomorrow


----------



## wayneL (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not sure if Tanya is being helpful.
> 
> ‘Elections aren’t memory tests’ Tanya Plibersek defends Anthony Albanese's mistake | ABC News​
> They actually are, a P.M is constantly given politically sensitive questions and expected to know the answers on all current subjects, it was the pausing and the ahhing that toppled Abbott. He never sounded as though he was completely on top of the issue, if he was given time it was o.k, but the media don't give P.M's time.
> What is the main problem Biden has? So Tanya saying it isn't a memory test, really I think she could have thought of a better out.



At least Tanya knows the definition of a woman.

Heard her on 6pr the other day and found it hard to bag her on most points, but yeah that one was a bit below par.

...and by the way, the local Liberal member still hasn't answered my emails (Hasluck).


----------



## moXJO (11 April 2022)

Lucky its early days. 

Scomo is the king of the shtfight though. They found a clip of Albo stealing a speech from a movie that was doing the rounds yesterday. 
Today's stuff up reinforced that image of an empty vessel. Add it to his current makeover and there's a line of attack.

He can't clam up under pressure. Scomo rolls in sht for fun. Albo seems to freeze and offer excuses when caught.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Lucky its early days.
> 
> Scomo is the king of the shtfight though. They found a clip of Albo stealing a speech from a movie that was doing the rounds yesterday.
> Today's stuff up reinforced that image of an empty vessel. Add it to his current makeover and there's a line of attack.
> ...






moXJO said:


> Lucky its early days.
> 
> Scomo is the king of the shtfight though. They found a clip of Albo stealing a speech from a movie that was doing the rounds yesterday.
> Today's stuff up reinforced that image of an empty vessel. Add it to his current makeover and there's a line of attack.
> ...



I'm with John Howard, so what?

I don't care. This isn't a spelling bee or something. Every speech doesn't have to be totally original. We don't expect every PM to match Winston Churchill.

I would like some real questions and less stupid nothings. I would like the contenders to talk about their philosophy, not the price of milk.

There were policy announcements today. Anyone know what they were?


----------



## moXJO (11 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm with John Howard, so what?
> 
> I don't care. This isn't a spelling bee or something. Every speech doesn't have to be totally original. We don't expect every PM to match Winston Churchill.
> 
> I would like some real questions and less stupid nothings. I would like the contenders to talk about their philosophy, not the price of milk.



You have a brain along with most posters on here. The masses out there are pretty easily swayed with optics.

 Paint a picture and they will dribble.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm with John Howard, so what?
> 
> I don't care. This isn't a spelling bee or something. Every speech doesn't have to be totally original. We don't expect every PM to match Winston Churchill.
> 
> I would like some real questions and less stupid nothings. I would like the contenders to talk about their philosophy, not the price of milk.



It would be nice if the media thought like you.
It was clever of the SMH to get that up quickly about John Howard, at least they have Albos back.  
It would have been better if Tanya had said "so what", rather than saying "it isn't a memory test". IMO


----------



## moXJO (11 April 2022)

This was the twitter post:



So obviously making Albo the "Australian Biden" is the look they are going for.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> This was the twitter post:
> 
> 
> 
> *So obviously making Albo the "Australian Biden" is the look they are going for.*





Biden won.


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Biden won.



Yeah but we don't have the Dominion machines here


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

Savage:





It will be interesting to see how far the pendulum swings. It doesn't seem like the media sees Albo as the anointed one.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Savage:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The Murdoch media never has. Some may be more unbiased.


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The Murdoch media never has. Some may be more unbiased.



The West is owned by Kerry Stokes, not Murdoch.


----------



## PZ99 (12 April 2022)

It's nothing compared to what they aimed at Gillard and then Rudd but some people have short memories...

I'll give it 12 months before folks on the right opine the ALP are the permanent media darling


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> The West is owned by Kerry Stokes, not Murdoch.




Who owns the Telegraph ?


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Who owns the Telegraph ?



My point is that it's not just Murdoch.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> My point is that it's not just Murdoch.




Kerry Stokes is well in with the Liberal Party and is a Liberal Party donor.


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Biden won.



The current outlook isn't great for midterms.


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2022)

As much as I don't like Labor, scomo needs to go. 
Surely they knew what was coming. Labor couldn't hide under the sheets the entire campaign.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It would be nice if the media thought like you.
> It was clever of the SMH to get that up quickly about John Howard, at least they have Albos back.



That wasn't the Sydney Morning Herald, that was Newscorp, they were looking for him to sink his boots in and were shocked when Howard effectively admonished the reporter.
You should listen to it. Howard is a decent guy and was a pretty good PM during most of his reign though he stuffed up a couple of things. And I think that's why Scomo is gone, enough of the public are smelling something bad and most of his colleagues hate him. The Daggy Dad pitch is wearing thin. The right wing media will do their best though and it will be pretty close.


----------



## PZ99 (12 April 2022)

Howard made the same mistake but avoided the hypocrisy trap the reporter tried to lead him to


----------



## Ferret (12 April 2022)

The SMH's bias is coming to the fore early.

Today's letters page doesn't have a single mention of Albo's stuff up yesterday.  Just endless letters bagging Morrison and the LNP.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

Ferret said:


> The SMH's bias is coming to the fore early.
> 
> Today's letters page doesn't have a single mention of Albo's stuff up yesterday.  Just endless letters bagging Morrison and the LNP.



It is good that we have conflicting media, at least the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


----------



## IFocus (12 April 2022)

I think everyone was a bit surprised at such an easy gotcher, Albanese will need to lift his game or it will be another throw away election for Labor.

Lucky for him its early, still Morrison has his own issues why is Trudge still a minister and why the $500k and how many more Liberals will line up to fire shots at him.

I suspect it will be painful every step of the way until election day and I haven't written Morrison off yet.


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

I still can't believe you guys want to vote for either one of these clowns. You know that you are being lied to and are going to get screwed over, so why?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I still can't believe you guys want to vote for either one of these clowns. You know that you are being lied to and are going to get screwed over,




Lesser of two evils.


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Lesser of two evils.



Yet there are other choices...


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I still can't believe you guys want to vote for either one of these clowns. You know that you are being lied to and are going to get screwed over, so why?



Resigned to the fact its a two party system.
I'll be voting anyone but the majors.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Resigned to the fact its a two party system.



Yep it's either Scott from marketing, or Anthony from Jenny Craig's school of economics, what a state Australian politics are in. Where is a Keating or a Costello when you need them? 🤣


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

This is where our preferential voting system is actually quite cool, if you understand it.

My primary vote and first couple of preferences actually have mine, yours and Buckley's chance of actually being elected.

But I want to make a statement and that's how I will be voting.

Realistically those candidates will be ejected in the first rounds, then comes my lesser of two evil choices. I don't mind saying that is much as I absolutely detest Scotty and the Liberal party at the moment and am highly alarmed at the prospect of them being re-elected, it does in no way match my panic at the prospect of a labor government, with an economic incompetent at the helm and the mean girls (plus effeminate wimpy males) on the front bench.... And even worse, possibly beholden to the greens.

Lesser of two evils is like choosing between hemlock and cyanide.


----------



## IFocus (12 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I still can't believe you guys want to vote for either one of these clowns. You know that you are being lied to and are going to get screwed over, so why?





Realistically in general for good governance governments need a clear majority with a good bureaucracy in tune.

That cannot be said for the last 3 terms of Coalition governments marked by floored ideology, egos, squandered use of public money on steroids and infighting.

In the last term the only independent that worked hard holding the government to account, for the Australian people and had any thing useful to say was Rex Patrick.

One Nation, UAP are flat out grifters no buts. 

Can anyone think of a single thing Katter did this term except entertainment?

The place is a big enough zoo as it is.

IMHO


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> The place is a big enough zoo as it is.
> 
> IMHO



Yep 

Hene nobody in their right mind should vote LIB/NAT or LAB/Green


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The Murdoch media never has. Some may be more unbiased.



This is the Murdoch news today, doesn't seem to be pro Morrison.



			https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/federal-election/scott-morrison-confronted-by-protester-who-gatecrashed-election-drinks-event/news-story/3881ec68fd0e88c94263747a0577b8ec


----------



## PZ99 (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> This is the Murdoch news today, doesn't seem to be pro Morrison.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/federal-election/scott-morrison-confronted-by-protester-who-gatecrashed-election-drinks-event/news-story/3881ec68fd0e88c94263747a0577b8ec



To sum it up,_ "Morrison abused by a Labor supporter". _

Yep, that's Murdoch


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> To sum it up,_ "Morrison abused by a Labor supporter". _
> 
> Yep, that's Murdoch



Probably with good cause, there have been plenty over the last three years, it would be novel to see someone thanking him IMO. 
If I was trying to improve his ratings, I would be paying someone to thank him in front of the media, not post up another one who is disatisfied, as though they don't have enough coverage of that angle since the bushfires. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (13 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> This is the Murdoch news today, doesn't seem to be pro Morrison.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/federal-election/scott-morrison-confronted-by-protester-who-gatecrashed-election-drinks-event/news-story/3881ec68fd0e88c94263747a0577b8ec



So "Get up" is still a thing?


----------



## PZ99 (13 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Probably with good cause, there have been plenty over the last three years, it would be novel to see someone thanking him IMO.
> If I was trying to improve his ratings, I would be paying someone to thank him in front of the media, not post up another one who is disatisfied, as though they don't have enough coverage of that angle since the bushfires. 🤣



Maybe he should visit my workplace... most of them prefer Morrison because they don't know who the "other bloke" is.

Any daggy dad who accidentally drops the C-Bomb in his election victory speech is an instant winner around here


----------



## Boggo (13 April 2022)

In SA the potential pollies are working on their ability to lie in case they get elected


----------



## wayneL (13 April 2022)

And here I was thinking this was going to be basically a cakewalk for Labor, but then you have Albo intent on political sepukku, and the purulent GetUp activists frothing at the mouth at every opportunity and probably having the exact opposite effect than intended...

This may be a bit more interesting than I thought LOL


----------



## SirRumpole (13 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> And here I was thinking this was going to be basically a cakewalk for Labor, but then you have Albo intent on political sepukku, and the purulent GetUp activists frothing at the mouth at every opportunity and probably having the exact opposite effect than intended...
> 
> This may be a bit more interesting than I thought LOL




I might give PHON a passing chance for my vote after she said we should put a tax on gas exports like Norway.


----------



## wayneL (13 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I might give PHON a passing chance for my vote after she said we should put a tax on gas exports like Norway.



It's interesting that PHON is getting a fair bit of airplay... Much more than from what I can gather from my sporadic listenings, than UAP or LDP.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's interesting that PHON is getting a fair bit of airplay... Much more than from what I can gather from my sporadic listenings, than UAP or LDP.




No doubt because of the Christensen connection.


----------



## PZ99 (14 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt because of the Christensen connection.



That would be the one reason I would never vote for them. 

His elevator doesn't exactly stretch to the top floor.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> That would be the one reason I would never vote for them.
> 
> His elevator doesn't exactly stretch to the top floor.




True, but he's just doing it for the money he gets for running and losing, he won't get it.


----------



## PZ99 (14 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but he's just doing it for the money he gets for running and losing, he won't get it.



If they accepted him they bought his values to sell to the electorate under their name.

So they're no different to the major parties - just more extreme, and dangerous


----------



## sptrawler (16 April 2022)

So after one week has anyone been watching proceedings, how are Morrison and Albo performing, it is hard to gauge on the internet media, they are all talking up their favorites as one would expect.
So I was wondering how people are objectively seeing the live on air performances, anyone look like they are cracking yet? It sounds like Albo had a stumble on the first day, but now Morrison is on the back foot over the ICAC issue.


----------



## wayneL (16 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So after one week has anyone been watching proceedings, how are Morrison and Albo performing, it is hard to gauge on the internet media, they are all talking up their favorites as one would expect.
> So I was wondering how people are objectively seeing the live on air performances, anyone look like they are cracking yet? It sounds like Albo had a stumble on the first day, but now Morrison is on the back foot over the ICAC issue.



The Libs are now in a public Civil war, over trans issues.... Profoundly, profoundly stupid. 

Just vote BOTH majors (and the Greens) out! Freaking useless the lot of them.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> The Libs are now in a public Civil war, over trans issues.... Profoundly, profoundly stupid.
> 
> Just vote BOTH majors (and the Greens) out! Freaking useless the lot of them.



I must admit I'm a Benny Hill supporter. 

Any candidate who comes near the hotel I tell 'em I'll vote for them. 

I am still undecided. 

As Paul Keating said, Mrs Gumnut and I are Mr. and Mrs. "Shopping Trolley". 

I do not have a principled bone still receiving oxygen in my body after decades of lies from all parties to be ar.ed about any of them. 

Speaking of which, I would vote for any candidate called Hugh Jarse, no matter their politics, at least they would keep a parliamentary seat warm. 

Bastards all of them.

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (16 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So after one week has anyone been watching proceedings, how are Morrison and Albo performing, it is hard to gauge on the internet media, they are all talking up their favorites as one would expect.
> So I was wondering how people are objectively seeing the live on air performances, anyone look like they are cracking yet? It sounds like Albo had a stumble on the first day, but now Morrison is on the back foot over the ICAC issue.



I can't say I've been following it much, I can't stand Morrison s snake oil and I'm giving Albo time to recover. The last week is where the action all happens I reckon.


----------



## macca (16 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I can't say I've been following it much, I can't stand Morrison s snake oil and I'm giving Albo time to recover. The last week is where the action all happens I reckon.




I agree but in our area it has become the fashion to vote asap to avoid the rush on polling day.

When we drive past the pre polling booth the line has 20-30 people waiting in it each morning.

When we go to the usual booth on polling day the place is deserted


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2022)

I didn't bother taking notice again after the 1st week.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> I didn't bother taking notice again after the 1st week.



This election has been a big turnoff. Much worse than previous elections.
If it was a reality TV program (which it resembles) it would have been cancelled after the first week.


----------



## sptrawler (17 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> This election has been a big turnoff. Much worse than previous elections.
> If it was a reality TV program (which it resembles) it would have been cancelled after the first week.



The problem seems to be the ABC, SMH etc are ratcheting up the anti scomo rhetoric, but it seems to be about issues that the mainstream public don't relate to, a lot of the issues are Sydney based, no one west of the blue mountains probably gives a $hit about the issue.
The media needs to focus on issues that affect all Australians, because all Australians vote, not just Sydney/Melbourne, which as usual the media is focusing on IMO.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...d-as-pm-digs-in-on-deves-20220416-p5adw6.html









						‘A matter for the NSW Liberal Party’: Payne refuses to endorse Deves in Warringah
					

Senior NSW Liberal Marise Payne says Katherine Deves started an ‘important discussion’ over trans rights in sport but refused to endorse the party’s candidate.




					www.theage.com.au
				




At the moment from a W.A perspective, all I'm seeing on the internet news is, some Liberal candidate doesn't like the idea, of blokes who feel they are women shouldn't be allowed to run in women's events or something like that. The media obviously think there is a storm in a teacup brewing, so are all over it as usual but most think 'what the', why does someone have to commit to agreeing with someone?everyone has their right to their opinion. Well that was until recently, when if you don't agree with the media opinion, then you are hounded to death. 
This is starting to look like a train wreck IMO.
The media needs to back off on nitpicking the Libs and start and promote Albo's message, which as I said long ago he should have been rolling out much earlier.
It isn't as though he is a salesman, he is just IMO a decent bloke who would probably have a moral compass, the media isn't presenting that at all IMO.
But then again, who said the media had brains, they are just trained to present bad news in an exciting fashion.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The problem seems to be the ABC, SMH etc are ratcheting up the anti scomo rhetoric, but it seems to be about issues that the mainstream public don't relate to, a lot of the issues are Sydney based, no one west of the blue mountains probably gives a $hit about the issue.
> The media needs to focus on issues that affect all Australians, because all Australians vote, not just Sydney/Melbourne, which as usual the media is focusing on IMO.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...d-as-pm-digs-in-on-deves-20220416-p5adw6.html
> ...



Absolutely. Pick up on Albaneses gaff and chew on it like a dog with a bone. Very little policy discussion, all petty point scoring. Very disappointing.


----------



## sptrawler (17 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely. Pick up on Albaneses gaff and chew on it like a dog with a bone. Very little policy discussion, all petty point scoring. Very disappointing.



This is the problem with all the news outlets centralising their news desks, it loses the local flavour and loses touch with local feedback, Australia has just become a Country that revolves around Sydney/Melbourne and the rest of Australia is a pimple on its ar$e.
Sad really, because you have these media muppets on $1m plus a year, telling those in regional Australia how life is.
When in reality they have no idea how life is, we really are in a sad state of disrepair, all the the things that made Australia the Country it is are being torn down.
Which is fine, that's life, but I hope the people who are doing it are happy with the end result.


----------



## basilio (17 April 2022)

Have to say the incessant ads for UAP is giving me the xhits. 

They make the Greens look  positively conservative. 3% home loans for 5 years to save your homes. 15% export tax on iron ore to reduce the National debt.


----------



## PZ99 (17 April 2022)

Can't wait for the debate - MAFS on roids.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 April 2022)

basilio said:


> Have to say the incessant ads for UAP is giving me the xhits.
> 
> They make the Greens look  positively conservative. 3% home loans for 5 years to save your homes. 15% export tax on iron ore to reduce the National debt.



Export tax on iron ore ? What is Clive mining these days ?


----------



## sptrawler (17 April 2022)

basilio said:


> Have to say the incessant ads for UAP is giving me the xhits.
> 
> They make the Greens look  positively conservative. 3% home loans for 5 years to save your homes. 15% export tax on iron ore to reduce the National debt.



Yes what is he thinking of, helping those with a mortgage and getting extra tax on our resources, he must be smoking something everyone else who has suggested these sort of things has been really hammered.  
He won't last 5 minutes with that platform.


----------



## basilio (18 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes what is he thinking of, helping those with a mortgage and getting extra tax on our resources, he must be smoking something everyone else who has suggested these sort of things has been really hammered.



I haven't seen anything close to realistic about how the 3% mortgage guarantee would work.
Unless of course one nationalizes the banks or perhaps throws in any extra interest costs above 3%

A 15% extra levy on iron ore ? At the very least I'd like to see how that was achieved and some analysis of the impact it would have

*In any case I totally and utterly despise/distrust Clive Palmer/ Craig Kelly and co.* The bandwagon of COVID denial they pushed destroys any trust I could have in them. Their flagrant lies about the wondrous "history" of the UAP  (Menzies, Lyons as Leaders ) raises the bile. 
Just shameless.









						Our Prime Ministers - United Australia Party
					






					www.unitedaustraliaparty.org.au


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2022)

basilio said:


> I haven't seen anything close to realistic about how the 3% mortgage guarantee would work.
> Unless of course one nationalizes the banks or perhaps throws in any extra interest costs above 3%
> 
> A 15% extra levy on iron ore ? At the very least I'd like to see how that was achieved and some analysis of the impact it would have
> ...



They certainly seem to be intent on inventing reasons not to vote for them. I can't imagine any focus group of potent UAP voters coming up with those doozies.


----------



## sptrawler (18 April 2022)

basilio said:


> I haven't seen anything close to realistic about how the 3% mortgage guarantee would work.
> Unless of course one nationalizes the banks or perhaps throws in any extra interest costs above 3%
> 
> A 15% extra levy on iron ore ? At the very least I'd like to see how that was achieved and some analysis of the impact it would have
> ...



Just think if we were a republic, he would be running for President. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (19 April 2022)

Polls and bookies are starting to narrow.


----------



## PZ99 (19 April 2022)

This is the worst election I've ever seen when it comes to "legal" BS...

_"Now claims that older Australians’s savings are at risk are back in twin scare campaigns: from Labor, arguing that pensioners will be put on the cashless debit card; and from the Coalition, that the retiree tax may not be dead."









						Factcheck: is there any truth to scare campaigns about the cashless debit card and retiree tax?
					

Coalition and Labor are targeting older Australians with advertising featuring grave warnings for pensioners




					www.theguardian.com
				



_
That's how you win elections these days - scare the crap out of senior folks


----------



## moXJO (19 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> This is the worst election I've ever seen when it comes to "legal" BS...
> 
> _"Now claims that older Australians’s savings are at risk are back in twin scare campaigns: from Labor, arguing that pensioners will be put on the cashless debit card; and from the Coalition, that the retiree tax may not be dead."
> 
> ...



Apparently the polls freaked out Labor and they had to go on the attack. Unfortunately they were just losing to much ground without it.

It does speak volumes though about election cycles


----------



## Macquack (19 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> This is the problem with all the news outlets centralising their news desks, it loses the local flavour and loses touch with local feedback, Australia has just become a Country that revolves around Sydney/Melbourne and the rest of Australia is a pimple on its ar$e.
> *Sad really, because you have these media muppets on $1m plus a year, telling those in regional Australia how life is*.
> When in reality they have no idea how life is, we really are in a sad state of disrepair, all the the things that made Australia the Country it is are being torn down.
> Which is fine, that's life, but I hope the people who are doing it are happy with the end result.



Radio jock Steve Price is a prime example. So called hard hitting veteran journalist who prostituted himself by going on "Celebrity Get Me Out of Here" to raise his profile outside of Victoria. It just pissed me off,  listening to Price broadcasting in regional NSW from his waterfront apartment on the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria, and thought, FU don't tell me what to do.

One day, Price was ad-libbing it with the newsreader on the "Australia Today" radio program, they were discussing the aging population of Australia. Price said " Australians are living longer, the government may have to look at raising the pension age". I thought, what a dope that he was oblivious to the fact they have already done it. I now refuse to listen to that privileged twit.


----------



## Eager (19 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The problem seems to be the ABC, SMH etc are ratcheting up the anti scomo rhetoric, but it seems to be about issues that the mainstream public don't relate to, a lot of the issues are Sydney based, no one west of the blue mountains probably gives a $hit about the issue.
> The media needs to focus on issues that affect all Australians, because all Australians vote, not just Sydney/Melbourne, which as usual the media is focusing on IMO.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...d-as-pm-digs-in-on-deves-20220416-p5adw6.html
> ...



The problem is, all the RWNJ's west of the Blue Mountains (and a good deal of them east of there, too) think that their yokel-based 'expert opinions' somehow hold weight. 

Deves should be hung, drawn and quartered for her comments IMHO. The ignorant Great Unwashed, including the PM and many conservative voters, are big on rhetoric and dog whistling, driving fear into themselves and others that somehow, trans people are taking over the world (wait until Hanson says that we are being swamped by trannies!). Deves' pile-on is completely warranted.

Let's look at the issue itself. Deves seems to be saying that girl's and women's sport should be 'protected' from supposedly physically superior Assigned Males At Birth competing against the females, simply because they purposely got their dicks cut off to win against them.

Does anyone here who supports Deve's or Morrison's stance actually know what the transition process involves? I didn't think so.

Androgen Deprivation Therapy must be undertaken for at least 12 months. Within the first month, testosterone levels are reduced to the castrate level. This is less than the small level found in people born and recognised as 'female'. So, 'natural' women have more testosterone than trans women. For trans women, purely due to ADT, muscle mass is significantly reduced, weight is gained, bone thinning is common, post-menopausal symptoms such as hot flushes are constantly endured, and, at best, depression induced from ADT is only just negated by the mental release from gender dysphoria. If a trans woman looks ripped it's because she's worked much harder in the gym than her equivalent fat male counterpart who sits at his desk eating donuts and thinks he deserves  superiority, or some blonde bimbo from the northern beaches! 

Opponents of trans women competing in female sporting competitions tend to focus on their winning records. From the following article I will highlight this -

_The issue bubbles away, but every so often a sports story emerges that puts the issue back in the spotlight. Most recently it was American swimmer Lia Thomas competing in the NCAA college championships.

In mid-March Thomas made history by winning the 500-yard freestyle race, becoming the first transgender woman to win an NCAA title in swimming. Much was made of her performance in beating two Olympic silver medallists.

What wasn't explained was that the 500-yard event is not a distance contested at either the world championships or the Olympic Games. The two silver medallists in Thomas's race were specialists in other events. Thomas's winning time of 4 minutes and 33.24 seconds was almost a full 10 seconds behind the NCAA record for the event, a long way short of the "smashing" of the record others had predicted.

At the same championships, from 18 events, 13 records were broken, three of them by a single swimmer who nobody is talking about._









						'It's not the problem they're making it out to be': Why trans sportswomen have become an election issue
					

Focus has once again turned to the issue of transgender women in sport, leaving more significant issues unchallenged, writes Tracey Holmes.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2022)

I'm sure it is one of those issues that sorts itself out, as far as I know there aren't a lot of trans athletes competing, so who knows if they will dominate women's sport at this time.


----------



## cynic (20 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I'm sure it is one of those issues that sorts itself out, as far as I know there aren't a lot of trans athletes competing, so who knows if they will dominate women's sport at this time.



Personally, I am of the view, that the chosen solution to the problem, is a long way short of ideal, as it appears to be undermining the integrity of outcomes, and thereby generating resentment towards the trans community.

I believe the creation of new categories, designed to cater for trans men, and trans women, would prove to be a far more equitable solution, and am wondering why our esteemed leaders aren't promoting aforedescribed (or similar) solution.


----------



## wayneL (20 April 2022)

cynic said:


> Personally, I am of the view, that the chosen solution to the problem, is a long way short of ideal, as it appears to be undermining the integrity of outcomes, and thereby generating resentment towards the trans community.
> 
> I believe the creation of new categories, designed to cater for trans men, and trans women, would prove to be a far more equitable solution, and am wondering why our esteemed leaders aren't promoting aforedescribed (or similar) solution.



^^ This is the only sensible approach.


----------



## wayneL (20 April 2022)

Eager said:


> The problem is, all the RWNJ's west of the Blue Mountains (and a good deal of them east of there, too) think that their yokel-based 'expert opinions' somehow hold weight.
> 
> Deves should be hung, drawn and quartered for her comments IMHO. The ignorant Great Unwashed, including the PM and many conservative voters, are big on rhetoric and dog whistling, driving fear into themselves and others that somehow, trans people are taking over the world (wait until Hanson says that we are being swamped by trannies!). Deves' pile-on is completely warranted.
> 
> ...



I got to "RWNJ" and concluded this is waffle that should immediately be discarded from reasonable discussion.

Pfffft


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2022)

A silly example of wrong media priorities. A lot of fuss over something that affects a tiny number of people. Forget it and get back to the cost of living.


----------



## Eager (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I got to "RWNJ" and concluded this is waffle that should immediately be discarded from reasonable discussion.
> 
> Pfffft



I expected that. Saying that you refused to look beyond the attention-getter because the factual text that follows doesn't suit your narrative (which, no doubt, you did actually read). Regarding trans issues, it proves that people have a clear choice; become educated or remain ignorant. It's easy to see which choice you made.


----------



## PZ99 (20 April 2022)

Eager said:


> I expected that. Saying that you refused to look beyond the attention-getter because the factual text that follows doesn't suit your narrative (which, no doubt, you did actually read). Regarding trans issues, it proves that people have a clear choice; become educated or remain ignorant. It's easy to see which choice you made.



You might like to consider going through some of his previous general chat threads and decide if his baiting even is worth responding to...

Basically it's everything from "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to "Western society is doomed"

Presumably your post must have hit a nerve because it was factual, wasn't self defeatist and violated the elitist views from someone who happily, and with gay abandon loved to throw the TDS label at anyone on here who disagreed with Trump or his polices.

Coming from someone who says "waffle" should be discarded from discussion is hypocrisy at its very best which is why the most common bit of text I see of his is _"You are ignoring content by this member"_

_:Waves at Wayne from the vantage point of the lunatic centre:   _​


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2022)

It is good to see someone is going to look into NDIS, I've been saying for ages it is the elephant in the room, there are more people milking that than the pensions IMO.
From what I'm hearing on the ground, every man and his dog is overcharging, as soon as NDIS is mentioned.









						Amid a 'critical moment' for the NDIS, Labor pledges new review if it wins election
					

Labor says it wants to "restore trust" in the NDIS, amid warnings about the scheme's sustainability and reports some recipients have been facing significant cuts to their plans in recent months.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Labor unveiled six key measures it said would "return the scheme to its original vision", aimed at fixing "wastage" on the administrative side of operations and putting people with disability "back at the top" of the NDIS.

They include:


an expert review that will "guarantee plans will not be arbitrarily cut"
lifting staffing levels at the National Disability Insurance Agency (NDIA), which runs the NDIS
reviewing the use of external lawyers and consultancy contracts, *as well as cracking down on "cowboys out there taking advantage of the NDIS money"*
streamlining the planning and appeals process to make NDIS decision-making "more efficient, fair and investment-focused"
and appointing a senior officer within the NDIA to boost service delivery in regional areas


----------



## wayneL (20 April 2022)

Eager said:


> I expected that. Saying that you refused to look beyond the attention-getter because the factual text that follows doesn't suit your narrative (which, no doubt, you did actually read). Regarding trans issues, it proves that people have a clear choice; become educated or remain ignorant. It's easy to see which choice you made.



I choose biology... You know, science.


----------



## moXJO (20 April 2022)

Eager said:


> The problem is, all the RWNJ's west of the Blue Mountains (and a good deal of them east of there, too) think that their yokel-based 'expert opinions' somehow hold weight.
> 
> Deves should be hung, drawn and quartered for her comments IMHO. The ignorant Great Unwashed, including the PM and many conservative voters, are big on rhetoric and dog whistling, driving fear into themselves and others that somehow, trans people are taking over the world (wait until Hanson says that we are being swamped by trannies!). Deves' pile-on is completely warranted.
> 
> ...



Natural women often have more testosterone then a muscle pig coming off a steroid cycle. It doesn't mean a whole lot. 

Men and women's bodies are setup very differently. Ligaments, joints, bones all favour men. I'm not sure if there's a study on muscle memory on those who transition. It gets amplified for those that routinely train.
In boxing/mma I think there needs to be some level of caution.

Let's put it another way, no one is complaining about female to male transitions going into men's sports. It's probably encouraged (no proof on that statement I'm just talking out my arse).

Another "tabloid" reason, is we have low ranked males suddenly moving to the top rankings in women's sports. So there does seem to be an advantage. However it seems to be select examples that are possibly at the more extreme ends.

It's not just right-wing. Tabloid "Feminists" and other previous leftards are also against.

It's a more complex situation then you are alluding to. It's also a recent change so warrants discussion.  However I support Trans in doing whatever they want so long as it is safe/fair for them and those they participate with.


----------



## Eager (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I choose biology... You know, science.



Ahh, so you're one of those who think that sex and gender are always one and the same and that non-binary people don't really exist. Science says otherwise!


----------



## Eager (20 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Men and women's bodies are setup very differently. Ligaments, joints, bones all favour men. I'm not sure if there's a study on muscle memory on those who transition. It gets amplified for those that routinely train.
> In boxing/mma I think there needs to be some level of caution.



Point of order, for those who have gone through the lengthy process of transitioning, bone and ligament alignment, particularly around the pelvic area, do in fact change. It is also common for the trans woman to be shorter than when she was pretending to be a man.

I wonder if people here are confusing trans women with shemales?


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2022)

Eager said:


> Ahh, so you're one of those who think that sex and gender are always one and the same and that non-binary people don't really exist. Science says otherwise!



I think what @moXJO  was suggesting is, that women and men have different muscle mass and different body fat mass, as a matter of DNA. Whether they see themselves as male or female, has very little to do with the underlying body type, despite surgery the DNA stays the same from my understanding.
If having surgery etc was all that was required to change from a man to a women, surgery would enable them to have a child also.
But as I said earlier it will get sorted out, if transgender athlete's start dominating, that will then become an equality issue and we have to have equality.

I wonder if people are confusing physical characteristics, with genetic characteristics.

*Adult males have more overall muscle mass and less body fat than females*, even in trained samples. Male athletes average 4% to 12% body fat compared to 12% to 23% in female athletes


----------



## wayneL (20 April 2022)

Eager said:


> Ahh, so you're one of those who think that sex and gender are always one and the same and that non-binary people don't really exist. Science says otherwise!



Those cases where sex is indistinct is miniscule, but concede that they do exist. Yes there is science to support that.

I also understand that there is the phenomena of gender dysphoria. If a person wishes to live their best life as something other than their biological sex, then I have no problem whatsoever with that. I am a libertarian so if that makes somebody happy then that's fine.

As a society we have decided to entertain that for the benefit of them. I'm cool with that too.

But we must recognise that, apart from those *very few cases of genuine, biological trans sex cases, that it is a psychological, rather than a biological phenomenon... And it may be temporary or even fleeting... With all the implications involved there.

Happy to spend the next 7 hours writing a book on this subject but I have other stuff to do.

... And for the record, just like so many of us, I do have friends and clients who fit in this category, especially in being with the horse world...

But in the end there is the biology, physiology and morphology of male and female, even if there is some significant overlap in many of these aspects.


----------



## PZ99 (20 April 2022)

Now we're getting somewhere...









						Labor and Coalition turn federal election campaign focus to industrial relations
					

Both parties renew a debate over industrial relations, with the Coalition vowing to double the fines imposed on unions that break the law and Labor arguing the Coalition's proposed changes to penalty rates and overtime will leave some workers worse off.




					www.abc.net.au
				



The good test as to who gets the BOOT


----------



## IFocus (20 April 2022)

So as the religious right take over the NSW Liberal party (Morrison inspired pre selections) I see many here have taken the bait and switch tactic arguing about the perils of trans gender women.

You have been sucked in.

Note Morrison is happy to get rid of moderates and back religious right radicals making BS public statements then withdrawing them and apologising, dog whistle at its best.

After reading this discussion another term of Morrison Australia cannot afford but looks like its coming.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> So as the religious right take over the NSW Liberal party (Morrison inspired pre selections) I see many here have taken the bait and switch tactic arguing about the perils of trans gender women.
> 
> You have been sucked in.
> 
> ...




Absolutely sucked in.

It's not a political issue any more, it's one that should be handled by the sporting organisations.


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> So as the religious right take over the NSW Liberal party (Morrison inspired pre selections) I see many here have taken the bait and switch tactic arguing about the perils of trans gender women.
> 
> You have been sucked in.
> 
> ...



If the discussion about transgender athletes can convince you that Morrison will win the election over it, that indicates you don't have a lot of confidence in Albo IMO.
This transgender issue seems to be an own goal by the NSW guy Keane, making an issue out of something like that is a pointless exercise IMO, as @SirRumpole  said it is an issue the sporting bodies will sort out.
Real storm in a teacup, being fanned by the media as usual IMO.
The real issue is IMO, why someone can't run for parliament because they don't agree with something, are we becoming that much much of a "mind controlling" police state?
What is next, if you have been on strike, or on a picket line, or had a speeding ticket, you can't run for parliament, because the media decide you aren't suitable, where does the line end? 
Obviously persecution is only acceptable, when it is against a Christian, or someone who doesn't agree 100% with the media and transgender acceptance in female sport, there certainly are weird pitchfork people around, being egged on by the media. 🤣


----------



## IFocus (20 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If the discussion about transgender athletes can convince you that Morrison will win the election over it, that indicates you don't have a lot of confidence in Albo IMO.
> This transgender issue seems to be an own goal by the NSW guy Keane, making an issue out of something like that is a pointless exercise IMO, as @SirRumpole  said it is an issue the sporting bodies will sort out.
> Real storm in a teacup, being fanned by the media as usual IMO.
> The real issue is IMO, why someone can't run for parliament because they don't agree with something, are we becoming that much much of a "mind controlling" police state?
> ...




The media?

Its simply a mirror to who we are, think about it they are producing a product the public want other wise they just wouldn't produce it. .

My reason re the election of Morrison is you lot are not stupid yet you all bought into the bait, but the real issue is the standards the Liberal party stands for which ATM is up for debate.

I am fine about Albanese he has had a long public life and is a pretty steady hand but asking around and I get the reply he appears weak, I know he isn't but that doesn't matter. 

As for the Christian thing have a look at WA Libs, dogs breakfast which is not good for good governance and it wont work federally either IMHO.


----------



## basilio (20 April 2022)

Josh Fridenberg has kicked a most spectacular own goal in Kooyong.

Somehow  The CEO of the charity Guide Dogs Australia has been encouraged to write a glowing support letter for Josh. Think about for a second. A CEO of a charity opening supporting a political party before an election.  

Guide Dogs Victoria launches internal investigation after CEO Karen Hayes publicly endorses Treasurer Josh Frydenberg​Guide Dogs Victoria has launched an internal investigation following its chief executive officer publicly endorsing federal Treasurer Josh Frydenberg's bid for re-election.

Key points:​
The Guide Dogs Victoria board said it had no prior knowledge of Ms Hayes's endorsement
The charity has requested the material be "immediately removed from circulation"
Mr Frydenberg is defending Ms Hayes's endorsement of him

The move may be in breach of regulations for charities set out by a national body.

Karen Hayes appeared in a social media video posted on Mr Frydenberg's Facebook page yesterday, and she featured in letterbox flyers dropped off in the seat of Kooyong.

In a flyer, Ms Hayes is pictured holding a guide dog puppy alongside the words "Why I am supporting Josh Frydenberg".

The letter is signed "Karen, Chief Executive Officer, Guide Dogs Victoria".

In the social media video, Ms Hayes credits the Treasurer with helping the charity complete a $30 million renovation of its Kew headquarters.

"He gives us guidance and connects us with people in the community, or within government, that we need to talk to to make change," Ms Hayes said.

A message at the end of the video confirmed it was "authorised by Josh Frydenberg".

The organisation has released a statement saying its board had "no prior knowledge of the distribution of this material and does not endorse it".









						Guide Dogs Victoria launches investigation after CEO publicly endorses Josh Frydenberg
					

The organisation's chief executive officer Karen Hayes has publicly endorsed the Treasurer in her seat of Kooyong through a social media video and in letterbox flyers.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Josh Frydenberg says he has pulled election ads after Guide Dogs Victoria complaint
					

Charity says it is committed to remaining apolitical and has launched an investigation




					www.theguardian.com
				



Charity commission says political endorsements not allowed​The Australian Charities and Not-For-Profits Commission (ACNC) website says charitable organisations will be disqualified for "promoting or opposing a political party or candidate for political office".


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> The media?
> 
> Its simply a mirror to who we are, think about it they are producing a product the public want other wise they just wouldn't produce it. .



If that was true circulation would be increasing, rather than declining, think about it.
If the media appealed to people, by reporting honest intelligent news, intelligent people would buy the papers, they don't they rely on adverts to keep in business. 




IFocus said:


> My reason re the election of Morrison is you lot are not stupid yet you all bought into the bait, but the real issue is the standards the Liberal party stands for which ATM is up for debate.



No one has bought into anything, the impression I'm getting is most don't really think it should rate a mention.
The only people who seem to buying into it seem to be getting emotional about it, which tends to affect rational thought IMO.



IFocus said:


> I am fine about Albanese he has had a long public life and is a pretty steady hand but asking around and I get the reply he appears weak, I know he isn't but that doesn't matter.



You are the only one here that is implying Albo is weak, so where you are coming from with that remark, is beyond me.



IFocus said:


> As for the Christian thing have a look at WA Libs, dogs breakfast which is not good for good governance and it wont work federally either IMHO.



As for the Christian thing, there has been a huge focus on Morrisons Christian beliefs in a derogatory way, how the media thinks focusing on that in a Christian country is a winner, is again beyond me.
With regard the W.A Liberals, they were a one trick pony, Barnett was the Liberal Party in W.A he was the only one with any brains and foresight, when he was gone the Libs were gone nothing to do with Christians IMO.
No one can even remember any W.A Liberal Party politicians, since Barnett has gone.
McGowan and Labor in W.A are of a similar ilk, ask any one in W.A to name a few W.A politicians and see what answers you get.
Trying to make it all something it isn't, might sound really great to the rusted on from either side, mainstream middle of the road look at what the parties are offering and who is selling it.
Simple really.


----------



## IFocus (20 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If that was true circulation would be increasing, rather than declining, think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hmm put the red wine cask down... 🤣🤣

Maybe its my poorly worded reply but you missed all the points.


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Hmm put the red wine cask down... 🤣🤣
> 
> Maybe its my poorly worded reply but you missed all the points.



Maybe because they were badly presented, or pointless, or maybe I'm not the one who needs to put the red wine down but I wouldn't be so rude as to suggest that.
Maybe what people say, is more a reflection of their character, than they realise.


----------



## basilio (20 April 2022)

There is a an article from Saul Griffiths outlining the way both  major parties have ignored the nation building and cost saving opportunities around roof top solar and localised energy storage. Some very compelling figures. To cut to the chase an electrified house and car powered by solar/renewable energy would save consumers around $5000 a year. Obviously there is a lot more to the story than the punch line but it should be examined and debated in this election.

The second story backgrounds Saul Griffiths .  He is no impractical energy nerd.  Many successes and very hard headed.
Australia’s election debate on energy ignores the miracle of rooftop solar​Saul Griffith


Power harvested from our roofs and stored locally could smash carbon emissions and obliterate household energy bills





‘Through the miracle of rooftop solar, Australian households are already accessing the cheapest energy in the history of humanity.’ Photograph: Dan Himbrechts/AAP
Wed 20 Apr 2022 05.30 BSTLast modified on Wed 20 Apr 2022 05.38 BS

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ignores-the-miracle-of-rooftop-solar#comments
46
It is a political tragedy that in this election our energy discussion is still framed around loss and sacrifice when it should be about abundance and opportunity.

Take the current skirmish over Labor’s plan to fast-track new poles and wires with $20bn in federal support to accommodate new large-scale renewable projects. Labor’s modelling indicates the investment will wipe $378 a year from household bills by 2030. The government, on the other hand, asserts that the investment will result in significantly higher energy bills.

Both sides are modelling the wrong thing. They are forgetting half of the energy equation. They are modelling the supply side (where we get energy from) and forgetting the demand side (what we use it for).
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ck-on-labor-energy-policy-is-all-too-familiar

The future is not just swapping big coal for big solar. To get to zero emissions, we have to electrify the demand side and decarbonise supply. Critically this means tripling the amount of clean electricity generated to also power our cars and heat our homes. A smart energy policy would support electrification of our communities. At this stage, both parties could take the lead in this area and should be fighting for the opportunity, given the windfall it will be for their constituents.

Labor misses the point because it has not grasped the potential of electrifying our homes and vehicles, which will drive much greater household energy and cost savings – as much as $5,000 a year by 2030. The Coalition misses the point because it doesn’t model the coming electrification of the demand side where the majority of new electricity demand will be met by more community and rooftop solar, which will be cheaper than the electricity from those transmission lines.

Through the miracle of rooftop solar, Australian households are already accessing the cheapest energy in the history of humanity. Solar is already installed at approximately $1/W of capacity. After financing, that’s around 6c/kWh delivered to you from your rooftop. This is approximately 20% of the price of electricity from the grid. We now just need to let our rooftop and community solar do more. It should also be powering our cars and our heat.









						Australia’s election debate on energy ignores the miracle of rooftop solar | Saul Griffith
					

Power harvested from our roofs and stored locally could smash carbon emissions and obliterate household energy bills




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Electric Monaros and hotted-up skateboards : the ‘genius’ who wants to electrify our world
					

After advising US president Joe Biden on energy, Saul Griffith is back in Australia to declare war on the climate crisis




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2022)

basilio said:


> There is a an article from Saul Griffiths outlining the way both  major parties have ignored the nation building and cost saving opportunities around roof top solar and localised energy storage. Some very compelling figures. To cut to the chase an electrified house and car powered by solar/renewable energy would save consumers around $5000 a year. Obviously there is a lot more to the story than the punch line but it should be examined and debated in this election.
> 
> The second story backgrounds Saul Griffiths .  He is no impractical energy nerd.  Many successes and very hard headed.
> Australia’s election debate on energy ignores the miracle of rooftop solar​Saul Griffith
> ...




Nice topic for discussion, but I doubt whether the electorate is in to the details, they just want to know which way power prices will go.


----------



## wayneL (20 April 2022)

I guess most will know that I am in the process of moving into a new property.

We've always been pretty frugal with power our last bill was $110 and the highest for the last few years was 180.

Where in the process of getting a Tesla battery for the house.... And I actually also already have a lithium battery to run my machines in my truck.

For me is nothing to do with climate change but more to do with energy security, even if on my microscopic scale.

The thing is that this automatically reduces our carbon footprint, whether that is a good thing or not. As I have often implied over the years, we are in fact pretty Green and focus on minimising resource use.

Green libertarians I suppose.

A long time ago we thought that what is happening presently would happen at some stage so have been preparing for quite some time.

Anyway, that is my virtue signalling for the evening


----------



## IFocus (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Anyway, that is my virtue signalling for the evening




You greenies are all the same


----------



## moXJO (20 April 2022)

Eager said:


> Point of order, for those who have gone through the lengthy process of transitioning, bone and ligament alignment, particularly around the pelvic area, do in fact change. It is also common for the trans woman to be shorter than when she was pretending to be a man.
> 
> I wonder if people here are confusing trans women with shemales?



Interesting, haven't really done a deep dive into the info.


----------



## moXJO (20 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> So as the religious right take over the NSW Liberal party (Morrison inspired pre selections) I see many here have taken the bait and switch tactic arguing about the perils of trans gender women.
> 
> You have been sucked in.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure there is much to argue about on the trans issue. I don't see much mileage in it overall. 
I've noticed overseas culture wars is targeting "groomers" on the left. Especially in schools. 

Not sure if there would be enough to stir the pot here when half your staff is being bent over desks.


----------



## basilio (21 April 2022)

Election time rolls out again. Time  for Angus Taylor to dust off another set of creative anonymous modelling and "prove"that Labours  push for rapid renewable energy will bankrupt the nation and send energy costs skyrocketing.

Renew Energy has called this out in no uncertain terms. 
“Another lie:” It is time to call out Coalition’s climate modelling con​
Michael Mazengarb & Giles Parkinson 19 April 2022 0
Share
Tweet
0Share







	

		
			
		

		
	
Minister for Energy Angus Taylor and Prime Minister Scott Morrison speaks to the media during a press conference at Parliament House in Canberra (AAP Image/Mick Tsikas).

It’s back – the now predictable feature of Coalition election tactics – a scare campaign against Labor’s climate and energy policy.
Tuesday saw the latest example of the Coalition making astronomical claims about the costs of Labor climate policies courtesy of federal energy minister Angus Taylor and the Murdoch media, both citing unpublished modelling.

It is the latest in a long history of climate policy scare campaigns run by the Coalition, claiming that Labor’s policies will lead to a surge in electricity prices.

It is a tactic  kick-started by Tony Abbott’s attacks on the Gillard government’s carbon price in the lead up to the 2013 campaign.
It helped Abbott win that campaign, and so every federal election since has seen concocted modelling used to produce fanciful claims about the costs of Labor policies and which are then provided to and run uncritically by favoured media outlets.

It is designed to scare voters and has been a major factor in Australia’s failure to take meaningful action on climate change for the last decade. It has been responsible for setting Australia back in the global transition to clean energy.









						“Another lie:” It is time to call out Coalition’s climate modelling con
					

Taylor rehashes Coalition’s favoured campaign tactic: Producing unverified modelling to make fictional claims about Labor policy costs.




					reneweconomy.com.au


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## sptrawler (21 April 2022)

@basilio I think once and for all the argument will be resolved, labor will win this election and they will implement their plan, so it will be an interesting exercise.
As @Smurf1976 has already said it can be done, so it should be very interesting watching the implementation, I for one am extremely keen to see it all unfold it will be great IMO.


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## basilio (21 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @basilio I think once and for all the argument will be resolved, labor will win this election and they will implement their plan, so it will be an interesting exercise.
> As @Smurf1976 has already said it can be done, so it should be very interesting watching the implementation, I for one am extremely keen to see it all unfold it will be great IMO.




Long way to go on both counts. Frankly I don't necessarily have unwavering confidence in unfolding a great renewable energy revolution. Certainly has to be done but our collective experience would recognise that  setting up the best planning processes and ensuring best value/most appropriate/optimum reliability engineering solutions is not easy or  should be taken for granted.

I sincerely hope that if a  Labour Government is returned they have done the preparation for this task. Be interesting to see if that question is asked in the next few weeks.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 April 2022)

basilio said:


> I sincerely hope that if a Labour Government is returned they have done the preparation for this task. Be interesting to see if that question is asked in the next few weeks.




In that case, better hope the Greens don't have balance of power. No more coal, no more hydro, just wind, solar and lights out at night.


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> In that case, better hope the Greens don't have balance of power. No more coal, no more hydro, just wind, solar and lights out at night.



The good thing is, once a party takes office, it becomes responsible for outcomes. When they are in opposition they just have to criticise and talk down the party that's in office.
So when Labor get in they will be given a briefing on all facets of the electrical system, its constraints and projects that are on the drawing board.
IMO they wont do much different to what the Libs have done, as politicians they have no technical expertise in what is a very complex area of engineering, so they will make big statements and do a bit of chest thumping but they will defer to the experts for guidance.
At the moment there is a huge amount being spent on HV transmission and the Snowy 2.0 project, they will probably just announce they are bringing forward some of the projects, that then gets the media off their backs.
It will be hard to accelerate the transition as the build process just takes a certain amount of time, also it sounds like Victoria could be in strife with this alternator burning out again, so keeping the lights on will be a big enough problem on its own. Everyone will be screaming blue murder for renewables, so Labor will have their hands full, just explaining why they can't do it quickly.
I don't think the first term will be a lot of fun for labor.


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## PZ99 (21 April 2022)

^ especially if they lose the election before that


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## wayneL (21 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> In that case, better hope the Greens don't have balance of power. No more coal, no more hydro, just wind, solar and lights out at night.



FWIW, I am spending up on both emergency ICE generators and the latest lithium battery technology.

Additionally the property I just bought has several years supply of biomass for heating (ie firewood).

So when the Greens completely the screw up energy supply, there will still be parties at my place.

Even rederob will be welcome for entertainment value


----------



## basilio (21 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It will be hard to accelerate the transition as the build process just takes a certain amount of time,




Not sure about that.
Each build takes a certain amount of time.  But if one has multiple builds occurring across many areas then remarkable progress could be made.
So essentially

multiple solar/wind /small solar installations.
Many big and smaller battery projects
Upgraded interconnectors to transfer power
Fast tracking electric cars/trucks and then integrating their batteries into the power system.
These can be achieved with largely private investment if government policies give the appropriate signals. The stumbling points will be technical capacity to implement, planning legislation and push back from current fossil fuel interests.

IMV a new government could make quite remarkable progress in 30 months if it set its mind to it. Lets remember that all the State Government  regardless of political persuasion and many industry groups are on board and would welcome such a drive.

I think a Labour government could make this a priority to promote employment, local industry, energy security and a strong co-operative approach to a common issue. Makes good sense on many levels.


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2022)

basilio said:


> Not sure about that.
> Each build takes a certain amount of time.  But if one has multiple builds occurring across many areas then remarkable progress could be made.
> So essentially
> 
> ...



Building the solar/wind farm is the easy bit, having the grid configured so they can gain access has been the issue, there are several transmission interconnectors being built.
Apart from S.A, most of the other States have talked up a storm, but done very little.
That's the problem today, talks cheap and as long as they say the right things the media leaves them alone. 
Victoria, NSW and QLD are the major coal burners, how many solar/wind farms have those State Governments built? But they certainly talk up a storm. 

This article from your Guardian, in 2020. So in a year and a half how much has Matt Kean's department built? It's a shame the Guardian don't ask him how many sites he has up and running, not the private sector, his State Government, he is the one promising outcomes.
Why didn't they put in to build some gas plant and shut down coal? Didn't he bag Kurri Kurri? Like I said talks cheap.
But he certainly is great at pointing out other peoples flaws, he is just typical of today's duds in politics, full of brown matter IMO.








						NSW promises to build more renewable energy than Victoria and Queensland combined
					

Gladys Berejiklian’s government says it will support 12 gigawatts of wind and solar and 2 gigawatts of energy storage




					www.theguardian.com
				




Matt Kean said a 20-year NSW electricity infrastructure roadmap released on Monday would lower the cost of electricity, create jobs in regional areas and avoid the state having to rush to build new generation as ageing coal plants closed in the years ahead.

The scheme involves the government awarding long-term contracts for three different types of technology – wind and solar farms to be built in three regional renewable energy zones, long-duration storage that can provide back-up power for eight hours or more, likely to come from pumped hydro or batteries, and *fast-start “firming” generation that ensures grid stability in a grid that increasingly runs on variable renewables, likely to come from batteries or gas.*


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> FWIW, I am spending up on both emergency ICE generators and the latest lithium battery technology.
> 
> Additionally the property I just bought has several years supply of biomass for heating (ie firewood).
> 
> ...



You have a Land Rover, they will run on anything, when they're running. 🤣

You just need to take a trailer with you, collect all the horse $hit and bull $hit when you're out there working, then make a methane producer to run the Land Rover Wallah problem solvered.
If this dude could do it with chicken poo, just imagine how much easier it is with horse manure, I mean the number needed is far less when you compare stool size. 🤣
We are drifting off topic, but I did add the BS word to keep it about politics.




__





						Chicken Manure Fuel Can Power Your Car – Mother Earth News
					

Chicken farmer Harold Bate discovered an eco-friendly way to power his car using decomposing chicken and pig manure as low-cost methane gas car fuel. Originally published as "The Marvelous Chicken-Powered Motorcar!" July/August 1971 MOTHER EARTH NEWS.



					www.motherearthnews.com


----------



## Eager (21 April 2022)

I thought this thread was about the election and what the various candidates have been saying through the campaign.

To that end, Morrison deserves a pile-on for his disgraceful comments about being blessed to not have disabled children. Sure, he didn't mean offence, but what a goof he is for even thinking that what he said was acceptable.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 April 2022)

Eager said:


> I thought this thread was about the election and what the various candidates have been saying through the campaign.
> 
> To that end, Morrison deserves a pile-on for his disgraceful comments about being blessed to not have disabled children. Sure, he didn't mean offence, but what a goof he is for even thinking that what he said was acceptable.



I thought it was a deliberate distraction and the words were meant to try to shore up the Sydney West population.

Let's not think of the huge failure in foreign policy caused by incompetence and slackness.The USA is said to be furious with us.

A China base at Solomon Islands cuts us off from Japan and South Korea and allows China to cut our main undersea communication links whenever they want.

Look over there!


----------



## Eager (21 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> A China base at Solomon Islands cuts us off from Japan and South Korea and allows China to cut our main undersea communication links whenever they want.



Not to mention, an impediment to the shipment of our reserve fuel supplies which are located in the U.S. 

I can see a scenario where a new 'Free' Trade Agreement agreement will have to be made under duress with China - we will get our fuel if they get our crops for free.

Morrison doesn't care because hypothetical consequences such as that won't happen under his watch.


----------



## IFocus (21 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I thought it was a deliberate distraction and the words were meant to try to shore up the Sydney West population.
> 
> Let's not think of the huge failure in foreign policy caused by incompetence and slackness.The USA is said to be furious with us.
> 
> ...





I know the headlines are saying its the biggest security blunder ever but its actually bigger.

China will own the Pacific in no time as a result, there has been a some pointed commentary about how badly Australia has dealt with the pacific islands and its continues to this day.  A minister or understudy fly's out for a day or two and then that's it.


What it means for Australia at the very least is that it will tie up large amounts of military / intelligence assets that we don't have  its a major cluster.


----------



## Eager (21 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> I know the headlines are saying its the biggest security blunder ever but its actually bigger.
> 
> China will own the Pacific in no time as a result, there has been a some pointed commentary about how badly Australia has dealt with the pacific islands and its continues to this day.  A minister or understudy fly's out for a day or two and then that's it.
> 
> ...



Isn't this just a confirmation of conservative mantra?

Always take the cheapest short term option, regardless of the consequences?


----------



## wayneL (22 April 2022)

Tbh, I'm struggling to see how Scotty's "blessed" comment was offensive.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Tbh, I'm struggling to see how Scotty's "blessed" comment was offensive.



It isn't. But he carefully planned it to occur. The trans thing had done it's dash and this is next, we were talking in the office what his next one will be and we thought religion.

He needs this sort of stuff to take the oxygen away from real issues and to avoid discussing policy.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Tbh, I'm struggling to see how Scotty's "blessed" comment was offensive.




It's offensive to people like Dylan Alcott etc and other people who have succeeded despite having a disability.

Of course we know Morrison didn't mean any offense, but the way it goes these days is that some people are ultra sensitive and offense is easily taken.


----------



## PZ99 (22 April 2022)

These Coalition members have been cracking me up lately with their demands from independents as to who they'll support in a hung parliament.

Dave Sharma : _"In the event of a hung parliament, which party will you support to form government?
“If you’re not being upfront with the electorate now and telling them which party you’re going to support, I think you’re being dishonest with them.
“You’ve got to level with them, you’ve got to say, if I’m elected this is who I’ll support.”_

Yeah well guess what Dave ? Maybe you should state what your party will be *offering* instead of demanding a vote... it's a bit like a shop owner demanding you buy a product before explaining what it does


----------



## wayneL (22 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's offensive to people like Dylan Alcott etc and other people who have succeeded despite having a disability.
> 
> Of course we know Morrison didn't mean any offense, but the way it goes these days is that some people are ultra sensitive and offense is easily taken.




Yes.

I'm in no way defending SM, but as you say if we're going to manufacture outrage at every turn of phrase we'll all end up hating each other for no reason.

I mean, you said "succeeded *despite* having a disability". So even that could be transmogrified into an offensive comment if someone  really wanted to.

Sheesh!


----------



## PZ99 (22 April 2022)

Took a while but the ABC have put up their swing calculator again.

It predicts (based on uniform swings if that's likely) that a swing to Labor of 3% or less is a hung parliament as is a swing to the Coalition of 0.5% or less.

Move the slider to your desired outcome 









						Antony Green's election calculator - Federal election 2022
					

The Federal election calculator is loaded with the pre-election margins for all seats. Enter a national swing, select state by state swings, or choose one of the stored opinion polls, to see the result that could be produced by the chosen swing.




					www.abc.net.au


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## IFocus (22 April 2022)

Eager said:


> Isn't this just a confirmation of conservative mantra?
> 
> Always take the cheapest short term option, regardless of the consequences?




The Coalition slashed the overseas aid budget now scrambling to restore but the damage is done.

This includes failure to engage at all levels provinces to prime ministers which I think they still haven't done.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Took a while but the ABC have put up their swing calculator again.
> 
> It predicts (based on uniform swings if that's likely) that a swing to Labor of 3% or less is a hung parliament as is a swing to the Coalition of 0.5% or less.
> 
> ...




The problem with that poll is that it's more likely to be done by users of the ABC who would be more likely Centre/Left , so is this a biased result ?


----------



## PZ99 (22 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The problem with that poll is that it's more likely to be done by users of the ABC who would be more likely Centre/Left , so is this a biased result ?



No it's not a poll, it's a user controlled calulator. The likely result depends on where you place the slider.
Other users have no effect on the result.

My own gut feeling is a swing to Labor of around 1.5% on the day. So the calculator gives the Coalition 73 and Labor 72 seats.

If anything it shows just how hard it's going to be for Labor to win outright because swings of over 3% are quite rare.


----------



## sptrawler (22 April 2022)

PZ99 said:


> No it's not a poll, it's a user controlled calulator. The likely result depends on where you place the slider.
> Other users have no effect on the result.
> 
> My own gut feeling is a swing to Labor of around 1.5% on the day. So the calculator gives the Coalition 73 and Labor 72 seats.
> ...



Good points. 
Albo getting covid is probably not a big disaster, it limits the media appearance and when he does zoom interviews he can have notes.
So not all bad for Albo IMO.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Good points.
> Albo getting covid is probably not a big disaster, it limits the media appearance and when he does zoom interviews he can have notes.
> So not all bad for Albo IMO.



Depends how sick he gets.


----------



## sptrawler (22 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Depends how sick he gets.



From the info on here and those in my immediate family who have had it, as long as he has been vaxxed he should be fine he appears to be pretty healthy.


----------



## PZ99 (22 April 2022)

He can catch up on his homework. I noticed he shook hands with the PM recently as well


----------



## Ferret (22 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> From the info on here and those in my immediate family who have had it, as long as he has been vaxxed he should be fine he appears to be pretty healthy.



I got it a few weeks ago and, despite being vaxed and healthy, it really knocked me  around a bit.  I wouldn't have wanted to be doing interviews!

Wife had it at the same time and she was far less effected. It seems to effect people very differently, so who knows how Albo will be for the next few days.


----------



## basilio (22 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> I know the headlines are saying its the biggest security blunder ever but its actually bigger.
> 
> China will own the Pacific in no time as a result, there has been a some pointed commentary about how badly Australia has dealt with the pacific islands and its continues to this day.  A minister or understudy fly's out for a day or two and then that's it.
> 
> ...




The capacity of the Chinese to build influence in the Pacific echoes many previous diplomatic disasters by the US and the West.
Back in the 50's the US treated  Africian and Asian countries with very scant regard in diplomatic terms. They took them for granted. They privately and often publicly treated officials with disrespect.

In that context the  diplomats from USSR and China were far more respectful and constructive in their relationships. The outcome for the foreign policy in the US was dire.

This failure of diplomacy came to a head in 1958 with the publication of The Ugly American. Check it out.

_The Ugly American_​
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



_*The Ugly American*_ is a 1958 political novel by Eugene Burdick and William Lederer that depicts the failures of the U.S. diplomatic corps in Southeast Asia.
The book caused a sensation in diplomatic circles and had major political implications. The Peace Corps was established during the Kennedy administration partly as a result of the book. The bestseller has remained continuously in print and is one of the most influential American political novels.[1] It has been called an "iconic Cold War text."[2]
​Background​Authors​William Lederer was an American author and captain in the U.S. Navy who served as special assistant to the commander in chief of U.S. forces in the Pacific and Asian theater.

Eugene Burdick was an American political scientist, novelist, and non-fiction writer, and served in the Navy during World War II. The two met in the build-up to the Vietnam War.[3]

The authors were disillusioned with the style and substance of U.S. diplomatic efforts in Southeast Asia. They sought to demonstrate through their writings their belief that American officials and civilians could make a substantial difference in Southeast Asian politics if they were willing to learn local languages, follow local customs and employ regional military tactics.
Historical and political​The book was very much a product of its times and historical context.

In 1958 the Cold War was in full force, pitting the two geopolitical giants, the United States and the Soviet Union, against each other for military and geopolitical influence and dominance. NATO and the Warsaw Pact divided Europe into two competing visions of the world: the Western world viewed countries in the Eastern Bloc as behind an Iron Curtain, as evidenced by the failed Hungarian Revolution. The Eastern Bloc countered by portraying itself as the liberator of countries that were still in thrall to colonialist machinations, as evidenced by banana republics. The nuclear arms race was underway with the U.S. well ahead initially, but by 1955, the Soviets had exploded a hydrogen bomb and were beginning to catch up, sparking fears of nuclear armageddon.

The Soviet launching of Sputnik into orbit in 1957 gave the Soviets a huge technological and propaganda victory and sparked a crisis of confidence in the United States and worries about falling behind technologically and militarily. In Asia, the French had left Indochina in 1954 after their defeat at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu and the U.S. became involved in Vietnam to fill the perceived power vacuum. The U.S. and the Soviets struggled for preeminence in the Third World through proxies in Latin America, Africa, and Asia.

In the Middle East, the U.S. feared the spread of Communism starting in Egypt and attempted to secure the region's most populous and politically powerful country for the West by guarantees of funding for construction of the Aswan Dam, but it was eventually the Soviets who prevailed. Soviet diplomatic and political successes in the Third World left the West worried about losing one country after another to Communism[4] according to the domino theory invoked by President Dwight D. Eisenhower.[_citation needed_]

It was in this atmosphere of fear, mistrust, and uncertainty in the United States about Soviet military and technological might and Communist political success in unaligned nations of the Third World that the novel was published in 1958, with an immediate impact.

Content​The book depicts the failures of the U.S. diplomatic corps, whose insensitivity to local language, culture, and customs and refusal to integrate were in marked contrast to the polished abilities of Eastern Bloc (primarily Soviet) diplomacy and led to Communist diplomatic success overseas.[3]









						The Ugly American - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## SirRumpole (22 April 2022)

basilio said:


> The book depicts the failures of the U.S. diplomatic corps, whose insensitivity to local language, culture, and customs and refusal to integrate were in marked contrast to the polished abilities of Eastern Bloc (primarily Soviet) diplomacy and led to Communist diplomatic success overseas.[3]




The US has always regarded itself as the most important country on earth.

In military terms it is, but there are other social democracies that have better records in dealing with their own citizens, let alone those of other countries.

Lately (and maybe earlier) we have been spruiking ourselves as some democratic model to be copied and yes we haven't done too badly but other cultures are different and have other ways of doing things ,  a fact which we are often slow to recognise.


----------



## basilio (22 April 2022)

7 Years to apologise for a smart xrse comment on a live mike.









						Dutton apologises for 2015 joke about rising seas in light of Solomon Islands China deal — as it happened
					

The federal election campaign continues, with Prime Minister Scott Morrison wishing Anthony Albanese well following his COVID-19 test, and Peter Dutton apologising for years-old comments.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (22 April 2022)

basilio said:


> Josh Fridenberg has kicked a most spectacular own goal in Kooyong.
> 
> Somehow  The CEO of the charity Guide Dogs Australia has been encouraged to write a glowing support letter for Josh. Think about for a second. A CEO of a charity opening supporting a political party before an election.
> 
> ...




And Josh does it gain.WTF?

He has  posters all around Kooyong showing him with a bunch of scouts.  Again using a not for profit community group as a prop for political popularity. How many strikes before you are out ?

Just not on.  Who is advising Josh on the use of such photos ? And why doesn't he know this is just so obviously wrong ?

Josh Frydenberg forced to alter federal election campaign posters after scout complaint​ABC Investigations
 / 
By Pat McGrath and Kevin Nguyen
Posted 12h ago12 hours ago, updated 6h ago6 hours ago





 Josh Frydenberg pictured with Scouts Victoria members on his campaign corflutes.(Supplied)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article


Josh Frydenberg's campaign team has agreed to cover over a photograph of a group of scouts featured on election posters after receiving a complaint from one of the subjects in the photo. 
Key points:​
Mr Frydenberg's office confirmed to the ABC it would remove the image
A scout in the image who made the complaint said they did not consent to it being used
*Scouts Victoria's guidelines explicitly forbid any of its materials being used in political advocacy*

Taken five years ago, the photograph shows Mr Frydenberg saluting alongside nine Scouts Victoria members.  
It has been printed on campaign corflutes located around the seat of Kooyong in Melbourne's inner-east.

One of the scouts in the photograph told the ABC they did not consent to its use and complained to Mr Frydenberg's office about the poster earlier this week.

They said they were told by his office the image would be "covered with a sticker" over the next few days.









						Scout complaint forces a makeover for Josh Frydenberg's Kooyong campaign corflutes
					

Josh Frydenberg's campaign team is covering over a photograph of a group of scouts featured on election posters after receiving a complaint from one of the subjects in the photo.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Eager (22 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Tbh, I'm struggling to see how Scotty's "blessed" comment was offensive.



Late reply. This issue is largely done and dusted due to the 24hr news cycle, but I still feel the need to provide an analogy with something you hold dear (the almighty dollar) to hopefully make you feel at least a little bit circumspect.

Consider, if you were destitute, hungry and sleepng rough, and Morrison proclaimed that he was blessed to be wealthy...how would you react?


----------



## wayneL (23 April 2022)

Eager said:


> Late reply. This issue is largely done and dusted due to the 24hr news cycle, but I still feel the need to provide an analogy with something you hold dear (the almighty dollar) to hopefully make you feel at least a little bit circumspect.
> 
> Consider, if you were destitute, hungry and sleepng rough, and Morrison proclaimed that he was blessed to be wealthy...how would you react?



No different at all, that would be true.


----------



## moXJO (23 April 2022)

Eager said:


> Consider, if you were destitute, hungry and sleepng rough, and Morrison proclaimed that he was blessed to be wealthy...how would you react?



Not the best example.

I think for those people with special needs kids, it was a bit of a kick to the face. It would make them feel like their kids were something less than. And their kids would have that negative reinforcement of not being "normal".

Just a poor choice of words from scomo.  But it was an obvious one. He should have the ability to see the ramifications of a statement like that before it leaves his lips. Especially if he had a marketing background.

However having every sentence you utter under scrutiny would be exhausting. Slip ups are bound to happen.


----------



## sptrawler (23 April 2022)

It is good to see the the aggressive sector coming out of the shell for the election, must be a right wing loony. 🤣 





__





						Loading...
					





					www.theaustralian.com.au
				




An enraged man hurled abuse at Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce, forcing his security team to step in.
The Nationals leader and his staff were travelling in a car along the New England Highway in Armidale, in NSW, at about 2.15pm on Friday when he pulled over to take a phone call.

As he was on the phone, a vehicle made a U-turn and approached the Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development minister.
It quickly prompted an Australian Federal Police officer, who was in a separate vehicle following Mr Joyce, to stand in front of the vehicle that was driven by man and had a woman in the passenger seat


----------



## moXJO (23 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is good to see the the aggressive sector coming out of the shell for the election, must be a right wing loony. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The lefty loons are at fever pitch. I'm not sure if they notice themselves being absolute dcks or what. Many seem to work for Labor ministers.

It's also a big reason I won't vote left leaning parties. Give an inch and their unhinged base takes a mile.


----------



## IFocus (23 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> The lefty loons are at fever pitch. I'm not sure if they notice themselves being absolute dcks or what. Many seem to work for Labor ministers.
> 
> It's also a big reason I won't vote left leaning parties. Give an inch and their unhinged base takes a mile.




Yeah nah Joyce has more than the normal amount of haters just in the bush, the left wouldn't be bothered as it would make no difference with Joyce.


----------



## sptrawler (25 April 2022)

One thing that the election coverage has done, is to highlight that people who are fortunate enough to have someone near and dear who has survived a terrible accident, it is best not to say anything because you will feel you are taking the pizz out of those who sadly lost someone.
We are going to a very dark place IMO, always looking and promoting negatives, will eventually drive public attitudes in the same direction, I guess I just hate the media.
I watched the hey hey its Saturday special tonight and it really reminded me of when the Australian media had a positive uplifting enthusiasm.
Now the media is just one sad programme followed by another.
Its sad really.


----------



## IFocus (25 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> One thing that the election coverage has done, is to highlight that people who are fortunate enough to have someone near and dear who has survived a terrible accident, it is best not to say anything because you will feel you are taking the pizz out of those who sadly lost someone.
> We are going to a very dark place IMO, always looking and promoting negatives, will eventually drive public attitudes in the same direction, I guess I just hate the media.
> I watched the hey hey its Saturday special tonight and it really reminded me of when the Australian media had a positive uplifting enthusiasm.
> Now the media is just one sad programme followed by another.
> Its sad really.




So what people say is the media's fault?


----------



## moXJO (25 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> So what people say is the media's fault?



I think it's the opinions masquerading as facts in the media.


----------



## wayneL (25 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> So what people say is the media's fault?



What people even thinking about most of the crap circulating around (say, like people being offended by "blessed") without the media making bloody song and dance about it?

It is all about morons being instructed what to be outraged about.


----------



## sptrawler (25 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> So what people say is the media's fault?



How the media presents what people say, is the media's fault.
In the same way, as what they chose not to present, is the media's fault.
Also it is common knowledge, the media circulation is falling as are their free to air viewing audience, they are just too fixated on their agenda's that they haven't stopped to think why.
People are sick to death of depressing and opinionated news and current affairs programmes.


----------



## wayneL (25 April 2022)

Finally, the AEC is getting serious in educating folks about how our preferential system works and how our vote is never wasted. Even if you are the only person that voted for the "Let's All Get Inappropriate Tattoos Party", your preferences are distributed upwards until your vote either counts, or a party is >50%.

Please share these among family and friends.



			https://youtube.com/c/AECTV


----------



## Knobby22 (25 April 2022)

Look at this closely. Quite clever.
Herald Sun.


----------



## moXJO (25 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Look at this closely. Quite clever.
> Herald Sun.
> 
> 
> ...



Has that been photoshopped?


----------



## Knobby22 (25 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Has that been photoshopped?



Nah, probably a sub editor error though thinking about it. There is a letter missing on the spelling also. which shows that person has had a big previous night.

But it is a bit of a mind trick.


----------



## PZ99 (25 April 2022)

Not the first time either...


[Dreaded Murdoch Media]






[/Dreaded Murdoch Media]


----------



## basilio (26 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Nah, probably a sub editor error though thinking about it. There is a letter missing on the spelling also. which shows that person has had a big previous night.
> 
> But it is a bit of a mind trick.



 Total stuff up .  Or an obvious piece of misinformation. We know exactly where the Herald Sun sits on its political reporting. 

So the question remains "Will the Herald Sun republish the figures properly and apologise for the error ? And naturally at teh same size and same page location"


----------



## basilio (26 April 2022)

Yet another "Karen" putting her foot well and truly in her mouth.
Karen Hates CEO for Guide dogs Australia has been stood down by the Board  for using her position to support Josh Frydenberg. 
Just unbelievable.









						'Extremely disappointing': Guide Dogs Victoria stands down CEO over public support for Josh Frydenberg
					

Karen Hayes is the subject of an internal investigation by Guide Dogs Victoria for publicly backing Mr Frydenberg in the hotly contested inner-Melbourne seat of Kooyong.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (26 April 2022)

basilio said:


> Yet another "Karen" putting her foot well and truly in her mouth.
> Karen Hates CEO for Guide dogs Australia has been stood down by the Board  for using her position to support Josh Frydenberg.
> Just unbelievable.
> 
> ...



Jeez, "Karen" has changed meaning at least 6 times in the last couple years.

But agree it is not kosher for such an organisation to endorse any political candidate.


----------



## Eager (26 April 2022)

What do we make of Morrison being filmed, busy on his phone during an Anzac Day service that he attended?

Candy Crush? Sportsbet? Tinder? Confirming to Jen that he'd get milk and bread on the way home? Was it really that important that he felt the need to be disrespectful?


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> So what people say is the media's fault?



The simple reality that so much of what is presented as "news":

Contains serious omissions the absence of which radically alters a reasonable person's interpretation of the story.

Is not factual news at all, being an opinion piece without factual backing or even paid advertising.

Is an old story repeated, often multiple times, with a different headline so as to create the incorrect perception of an ongoing stream of activity regarding the subject when in truth there is no such thing.

Is biased due to choosing what to report and what not to report. Eg reporting that one political leader tripped over on the steps, failing to mention that their opponent also tripped on the broken step.

Amounts to nothing more than the pursuit of a personal interest, obsession or hobby by the journalist writing articles that, whilst perhaps correct, wouldn't reasonably be considered newsworthy or balanced.

Etc.

One I know about personally is a certain individual in a high sounding place who comments on the energy industry, or more to the point on specific projects, in rather strong terms. Long story short - he'd be taken a lot more seriously if he drew attention to the fact that the reason he says x isn't necessary is because he's pushing gas as the alternative, a point you'll have to read the original report carefully to find brief mention of buried well within it.

So long as the reader understands the basis of it, the statement's factually correct but thing is, Joe Average newspaper reader won't be reading an obscure report on a transmission line and thus won't be aware that the assumed use of gas is the basis of the statement. They'll incorrectly read it as simply "project x not needed says expert" and think that's all there is to it.

Suffice to say I've given up on the mainstream media completely for anything contentious or ongoing these days. It's fine to report a bushfire or the sports results but it's well past the point of usefulness for factual information on anything of a contentious nature.


----------



## Knobby22 (30 April 2022)

Anthony Albenese said in an interview with Deborah Snow that he wants a legacy. 

The legacy he seeks will be "transformation of the economy to a clean energy economy that has things made here."

I like the fact he has a vision of what he wants to do. The other guy doesn't seem to have one.


----------



## wayneL (30 April 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Anthony Albenese said in an interview with Deborah Snow that he wants a legacy.
> 
> The legacy he seeks will be "transformation of the economy to a clean energy economy that has things made here."
> 
> I like the fact he has a vision of what he wants to do. The other guy doesn't seem to have one.



Laudable. However we are going to need cheap energy to buy bread made things here. Although I would like to see how they can achieve both cheap and clean. Fantastic if possible but from what I can clean around the world it doesn't seem to be achievable.

What else comes with that though, that's what worries me.

I'm still voting minors with libs labour and green last


----------



## moXJO (30 April 2022)

Talk is cheap. 
Is there policies yet to back it up?


----------



## sptrawler (30 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Talk is cheap.
> Is there policies yet to back it up?



That's the issue, Australia and the West has spent the last 40 years sending manufacturing to cheap labour countries, the only one who tried to reverse it by imposing tariffs was shouted down for doing it and thrown our.
Now all of a sudden everyone and their dog are saying they will do it, chook fodder for the media.


----------



## IFocus (30 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Talk is cheap.
> Is there policies yet to back it up?




Talk, BS and pamphlets is all we have had for 3 terms realistically you need to be in government to have the resources to develop real policy some thing Morrison hasn't done.   

1st the vison then the plan then action, let face it Morrison has none.


----------



## sptrawler (30 April 2022)

IFocus said:


> Talk, BS and pamphlets is all we have had for 3 terms realistically you need to be in government to have the resources to develop real policy some thing Morrison hasn't done.
> 
> 1st the vison then the plan then action, let face it Morrison has none.



Maybe if Shorten had put these ideas up last election, we wouldnt have had to put up with Morrison for three years?


----------



## moXJO (1 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Talk, BS and pamphlets is all we have had for 3 terms realistically you need to be in government to have the resources to develop real policy some thing Morrison hasn't done.
> 
> 1st the vison then the plan then action, let face it Morrison has none.



That's the exact reason why "talk is cheap".
The things he mentioned seem polar opposites. Solar and manufacturing don't generally go hand in hand. Sounds like bs to me.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> That's the exact reason why "talk is cheap".
> The things he mentioned seem polar opposites. *Solar and manufacturing don't generally go hand in hand.* Sounds like bs to me.



Manufacturing solar power equipment ?


----------



## moXJO (1 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Manufacturing solar power equipment ?



No, being powered by solar/renewable. It's not happening at any great speed.

It's a "vision" already being implemented and would probably take a couple of terms. Albo just "thought bubbled" something we are already moving towards.


----------



## basilio (1 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> That's the exact reason why "talk is cheap".
> The things he mentioned seem polar opposites*. Solar and manufacturing don't generally go hand in hand. *Sounds like bs to me.




Twiggy Forrest is doing exactly that in Gladstone.  









						Twiggy finds a partner for massive Gladstone 'gigafactory' - InQueensland
					

<span style="font-weight: 400;">Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Future Industries has struck a deal with the Nasdaq-listed Plug Power the build the Gladstone electrolyser factory.</span>




					inqld.com.au


----------



## basilio (1 May 2022)

Labour will officially launch its' election campaign today.

I think the policy of helping low-middle income earners buy a house using 30-40%  Commonwealth equity loan funds will cut through.

Essentially an massive interest free equity loan which reduces home purchase costs and gives  first home buyers a realistic chance of owning their own home. Well targeted. Well needed. 

Labor to help low and middle income earners buy home with shared ownership scheme​Anthony Albanese will unveil $329m Help to Buy housing initiative as the centrepiece of Labor’s campaign launch in Perth

Anthony Albanese will provide help for Australians on low and middle incomes to buy houses by giving eligible applicants a commonwealth equity contribution of up to 40% of the purchase price of a new home, and up to 30% for an existing home.

The Labor leader will unveil the new $329m housing initiative as the centrepiece of Labor’s official campaign launch in Perth on Sunday. If Albanese wins on 21 May, Labor’s new shared equity housing policy will be implemented in addition to the Morrison government’s First Home Guarantee scheme.









						Labor to help low and middle income earners buy home with shared ownership scheme
					

Anthony Albanese will unveil $329m Help to Buy housing initiative as the centrepiece of Labor’s campaign launch in Perth




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (1 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's the issue, Australia and the West has spent the last 40 years sending manufacturing to cheap labour countries, the only one who tried to reverse it by imposing tariffs was shouted down for doing it and thrown our.
> Now all of a sudden everyone and their dog are saying they will do it, chook fodder for the media.



Only the Labor party are saying they will do it for new manufacturing. There is is Liberal policy to encourage Australian manufacturing 1.3 bil to put in moderm plant. Labor said they will invest 15billion in Australian manufacturing plus put in laws for the government to preferentially buy from Australian firms.

That used to be the case but I can tell you it doesn't exist federally anymore (as a consulting engineer) and I am not sure why it was removed unless it was some free trade treaty or some multinationals influenced the government.


----------



## moXJO (1 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> plus put in laws for the government to preferentially buy from Australian firms.
> 
> That used to be the case but I can tell you it doesn't exist federally anymore (as a consulting engineer) and I am not sure why it was removed unless it was some free trade treaty or some multinationals influenced the government.



They had problems with supply last time they did it and costs blew out. Project delayed also due to supply constraints.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> They had problems with supply last time they did it and costs blew out. Project delayed also due to supply constraints.



Makes sense and not surprised. They need something more nuanced.


----------



## moXJO (1 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Makes sense and not surprised. They need something more nuanced.



It made a mess at the time. I'd be worried about cost blow-outs again. A lot of kick backs to "friendly entities" went on as well. Get ready to position yourself for some fast government money


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> They had problems with supply last time they did it and costs blew out. Project delayed also due to supply constraints.



Exactly we installed locally manufactured plc's and had to replace them with O/S units when the company went belly up and couldn't supply support. It's a great idea, but in practise we found that other than small scale mechanical manufacturing, the cost impost and technically inferior product cost a lot lot more.

With regard the suggestion that the Feds go 40/60 on home loans, that would want to be well thought out, the two issues that I can think of is a further increase in house prices as there is yet more stimulus and secondly who manages the defaults?
The concept is great as usual, the problem as usual will be in the implementation, which in the past has been where all these ideas seem to fallon their ar$e.
It is somewhat like the NDIS, great idea, then the blow out as the 'entrepreneurs' works out how to milk it.


----------



## wayneL (1 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> They had problems with supply last time they did it and costs blew out. Project delayed also due to supply constraints.



And there's the rub. "Vision" is all fine and dandy, but often it subject to the law of unintended consequences.

These things need to be through and Australians shouldn't be tricked by platitudes.

I'm all for what elbow sad but there must be something more comprehensive in their plan... There are a lot of moving parts in there.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Exactly we installed locally manufactured plc's and had to replace them with O/S units when the company went belly up and couldn't supply support. It's a great idea, but in practise we found that other than small scale mechanical manufacturing, the cost impost and technically inferior product cost a lot lot more.
> 
> With regard the suggestion that the Feds go 40/60 on home loans, that would want to be well thought out, the two issues that I can think of is a further increase in house prices as there is yet more stimulus and secondly who manages the defaults?
> The concept is great as usual, the problem as usual will be in the implementation, which in the past has been where all these ideas seem to fallon their ar$e.
> It is somewhat like the NDIS, great idea, then the blow out as the 'entrepreneurs' works out how to milk it.



It can be done successfully but you have to be careful.
Thete have been a number of success stories over the years but following is a recent one.








						HOME | Urban Aluminium | Mt Kuring-Gai | Aluminium Light Poles for Smart Cities
					

Aluminium Multi-function Light Poles designed to be future-proofed, IoT Ready, cost effective, corrosion free, sustainable, passive safe with quality anodised or painted finishes. Range of corrosion free, sustainable, tapered, straight sided or square decorative aluminium poles.




					www.urban-al.com.au


----------



## Knobby22 (1 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> And there's the rub. "Vision" is all fine and dandy, but often it subject to the law of unintended consequences.
> 
> These things need to be through and Australians shouldn't be tricked by platitudes.
> 
> I'm all for what elbow sad but there must be something more comprehensive in their plan... There are a lot of moving parts in there.



It's better to be ambitious than the opposite though. 
They are keeping it a bit under wraps to be a small target.


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> It can be done successfully but you have to be careful.
> Thete have been a number of success stories over the years but following is a recent one.
> 
> 
> ...



Like I said, local production of small manufactured goods was fine, we bought light poles and had control cabinets, vacuum tube HV switchboards etc locally manufactured.

These were locally produced PLC's, the programming was clunky, the command execution time was average, but we did use local and tried to patronise them, but it is difficult when off the shelf Allen Bradley or several others were available. Eventually they went under.

What we need to do is focus on what we have an advantage in and develop that, not try and beat others who have massive advantage of scale and market dominance, we should be value adding to our raw materials and associated industries that would feed that process. IMO
There are companies like Imdex, Redflow, that are producing and developing complimentary products.


----------



## PZ99 (1 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Exactly we installed locally manufactured plc's and had to replace them with O/S units when the company went belly up and couldn't supply support. It's a great idea, but in practise we found that other than small scale mechanical manufacturing, the cost impost and technically inferior product cost a lot lot more.
> 
> With regard the suggestion that the Feds go 40/60 on home loans, that would want to be well thought out, the two issues that I can think of is a further increase in house prices as there is yet more stimulus and secondly who manages the defaults?
> The concept is great as usual, the problem as usual will be in the implementation, which in the past has been where all these ideas seem to fallon their ar$e.
> It is somewhat like the NDIS, great idea, then the blow out as the 'entrepreneurs' works out how to milk it.



I wouldn't go with the 40/60 on home loans.

I would try the first home buyers' grant (if it's still there) but not pay the grant until 1 or maybe 2 years after they bought the house. This avoids the further increase in prices by removing the buying power and more importantly provides relief against future rate rises.

The provision of raiding your super should be the same - only enable its use to offset higher future repayments rather than just paying it upfront


----------



## moXJO (1 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> It's better to be ambitious than the opposite though.
> They are keeping it a bit under wraps to be a small target.



Absolutely. 

Unless of course it's political ambition. You have to rake those sneaky rats over the coals.


----------



## Knobby22 (2 May 2022)

Seat of Kooyong - Josh Frydenburg says Teal Independent Monique Ryan's Mum in law said to him that she is going to vote for Josh.

I want a television interview with the mother in law where she's says her daughter in law is not good enough for her son and a lousy cook.
It would make me laugh. 









						Monique Ryan criticises Josh Frydenberg for bringing family into campaign after mother-in-law quip
					

Kooyong independent Monique Ryan is accusing Josh Frydenberg of misquoting her mother-in-law, but the Treasurer says he remembers the interaction "word-for-word".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I wouldn't go with the 40/60 on home loans.
> 
> I would try the first home buyers' grant (if it's still there) but not pay the grant until 1 or maybe 2 years after they bought the house. This avoids the further increase in prices by removing the buying power and more importantly provides relief against future rate rises.
> 
> The provision of raiding your super should be the same - only enable its use to offset higher future repayments rather than just paying it upfront



Nailed it.


----------



## basilio (2 May 2022)

*Are you getting your Pound of Pork this election ?*

As ScoMo and co get more and more desperate pork pie promises are being spread like pork chops across the electorates like Confederate currency.
But what is your bribe to subscribe ? Are you getting your fair share ? And how do you cash in the chips before they become yesterdays news ?

Check out the *Pork O Meter*.  One stop shop of every pork pie in the land. Every party is well represented









						Pork-o-meter: tracking Australian election spending announcements by electorate and leaders’ campaign map
					

Election promises or pork barrelling? From commuter car parks to tourist trails, politicians promise many things when an election looms. We are tracking all announcements from Coalition and Labor MPs and candidates throughout the campaign, and which seats and states the party leaders are...




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (3 May 2022)

Thoughts on Labor's shared equity housing policy? It's something that's done elsewhere, particularly the UK, where it's been in effect for a number of years.

There are substantive differences between the proposed scheme here and the UK scheme, but some the issues are outlined in this link









						Shared Ownership: What Is It? Is It Worth It? - HOA
					

We point out the pros and cons of shared ownership schemes. How it works and pitfalls you’ll want to avoid.




					hoa.org.uk
				




It also does not address the underlying problem of sky high house prices and may in fact exacerbate it.


----------



## macca (3 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Thoughts on Labor's shared equity housing policy? It's something that's done elsewhere, particularly the UK, where it's been in effect for a number of years.
> 
> There are substantive differences between the proposed scheme here and the UK scheme, but some the issues are outlined in this link
> 
> ...




Exactly, every time they "do something" it simply means that people can now borrow more $$ so house prices surge upward again.

The quickest way to stop the surge is no fancy new schemes and require a 15% unencumbered deposit on Investment Props and at least 5% deposit on owner occupier loans.

Of course, we also need to stop the flood of immigrants until the infrastructure in the cities is upgraded to handle them.

Covid did slow the flood of people, the only good thing to come from it I think


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2022)

I think Jason Claire might just put Labor over the line and win himself a succession ticket.


----------



## wayneL (3 May 2022)

Tisme said:


> I think Jason Claire might just put Labor over the line and win himself a succession ticket.



He's actually a pretty impressive politician and he's got good hair, a big plus for the women voters... but those ears!

(And that's just my way of commenting on how trivial politics has become)


----------



## PZ99 (5 May 2022)

Albo had 3 years to get this right but it's abundantly clear he's throwing this election away either from laziness or ineptitude. It's really quite embarrassing to watch.









						Anthony Albanese fails to outline his own NDIS policy
					

In another car-crash run-in with journalists on Thursday morning following his day-one campaign gaffe, the Labor leader could not outline his six-point plan on the NDIS.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Knobby22 (5 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Albo had 3 years to get this right but it's abundantly clear he's throwing this election away either from laziness or ineptitude. It's really quite embarrassing to watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't think anyone cares much to be honest. Everyone knows how they are voting. As soon as the election comes on TV they turn the channel.

Albo should have asked for the cheat sheet at the beginning. 6 points, too many for most human brains. I know at my work once I go above 4 points I bring the list with me.

Scomo has the advantage that he doesn't have to remember any detailed policies. Everything is pretty much is , as is and he hasn't really promised anything different if he gets elected.


----------



## sptrawler (5 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Albo had 3 years to get this right but it's abundantly clear he's throwing this election away either from laziness or ineptitude. It's really quite embarrassing to watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thinking on his feet has never been his strong suit, hopefully he gets a relapse with covid, it's a shame but as you say the preparation isn't great, as the NDIS is a centre piece policy.


----------



## moXJO (5 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Thinking on his feet has never been his strong suit, hopefully he gets a relapse with covid, it's a shame but as you say the preparation isn't great, as the NDIS is a centre piece policy.



One more gaffe from albo and Bill Shorten can finally break out his "I'm with Stupid" 
T-shirt.


----------



## PZ99 (6 May 2022)

"Our policy on the NDIS is to defend and fix the NDIS"

...Dow Jones falls 3%


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> One more gaffe from albo and Bill Shorten can finally break out his "I'm with Stupid"
> T-shirt.




I thought Albo did a good job on Q&A when allowed to speak by the host.


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought Albo did a good job on Q&A when allowed to speak by the host.



My guess is Albo has more to worry about from his mates, than the electorate.
I think he will romp in the election, whether he can keep Shorten and the knife crew at bay, will be his main worry IMO. 
He isn't performing well on the idiot box, but neither is Morrison apparently, so nothing much will change the average voter, I think they will still reckon it is still worth having a change of Govt.


----------



## Knobby22 (6 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is Albo has more to worry about from his mates, than the electorate.
> I think he will romp in the election, whether he can keep Shorten and the knife crew at bay, will be his main worry IMO.



Scomo has already knifed everyone he needed to from other factions. The effort to have only his people in NSW and make sure that the local supporters had no say was an impressive show of power.


----------



## PZ99 (6 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is Albo has more to worry about from his mates, than the electorate.
> I think he will romp in the election, whether he can keep Shorten and the knife crew at bay, will be his main worry IMO.
> He isn't performing well on the idiot box, but neither is Morrison apparently, so nothing much will change the average voter, I think they will still reckon it is still worth having a change of Govt.



It's pretty bad isn't it ?

In this term us taxpayers have spent around $2.5m just on these 2 clowns only to get something inferior to a pack of primary school aged actors accurately reciting their lines for free. LOL

No wonder Turnbull's going for the independents. He might run as one himself as the indy PM


----------



## wayneL (6 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Scomo has already knifed everyone he needed to from other factions. The effort to have only his people in NSW and make sure that the local supporters had no say was an impressive show of power.



It's put the punters off though, which will means it will all be for nought. Even Albo fluffing his lines can't bring them back.


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> No wonder Turnbull's going for the independents. He might run as one himself as the indy PM



Yes, IMO Turnbull and Rudd could start the narcissist party of Australia, if you vote for them, they send you a mounted photo.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is Albo has more to worry about from his mates, than the electorate.
> I think he will romp in the election, whether he can keep Shorten and the knife crew at bay, will be his main worry IMO.
> He isn't performing well on the idiot box, but neither is Morrison apparently, so nothing much will change the average voter, I think they will still reckon it is still worth having a change of Govt.



Its easier to remember your policies when you don't have any.


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Its easier to remember your policies when you don't have any.



But you are better not having any policies, than having policies and not remembering what they are. 
Thankfully I don't watch any of the broadcasts.


----------



## MovingAverage (6 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> No wonder Turnbull's going for the independents.



Turdbull is just being a little bitch...bit like Krudd...these ex-PMs should just go away and leave everyone alone. Narcissists


----------



## MovingAverage (6 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> But you are better not having any policies, than having policies and not remembering what they are.



Poor old Albo, was very embarrassing for the bloke to not remember a few high level "bullet points" for the very policy his party fought so hard to introduce and which is a cornerstone of his own campaign. The poor folks who depend on the NDIS can't have much faith in the wannabe PM who can't even recall a few key aspects of his policy.


----------



## greggles (6 May 2022)

Scomo deserves to lose this election, but Albo seems determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

You would have thought after the disaster that was Mr. Forehead (aka Bill Shorten) that the ALP would have learned something. Apparently not. They continue to nominate leaders that have about as much charisma as a potted plant. Project Albo has been a failed experiment.

I'm no fan of Pauline Hanson, but these videos One Nation has been making are hilarious.


----------



## The Triangle (6 May 2022)

greggles said:


> Scomo deserves to lose this election, but Albo seems determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
> 
> You would have thought after the disaster that was Mr. Forehead (aka Bill Shorten) that the ALP would have learned something. Apparently not. They continue to nominate leaders that have about as much charisma as a potted plant. Project Albo has been a failed experiment.
> 
> I'm no fan of Pauline Hanson, but these videos One Nation has been making are hilarious.




Those are really good videos.  

The Biden one was fantastic.


----------



## IFocus (6 May 2022)

No excuses for Albanese given the glare of media around the election not that his gaffs mean much in the big picture, he has had a long time in the public sphere and the fact that this is the only thing that the Coalition can hammer him for shows he has been competent in the respective roles he has had unlike Morrison.

Seems everyone has lined up to kick Morrison (deservedly) so expect the next Liberal to take a turn soon.

Fred Channery wrote a damming article re Morrison which I expect will put another nail in Morrison as far as WA goes.


----------



## moXJO (7 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought Albo did a good job on Q&A when allowed to speak by the host.



If albo was fresh to politics... well ok then I'd get a mistake. But the guy is a career politician that's been pretty much a politician all his life.

If you ain't good at it by now, God help you.


----------



## sptrawler (7 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> If albo was fresh to politics... well ok then I'd get a mistake. But the guy is a career politician that's been pretty much a politician all his life.
> 
> If you ain't good at it by now, God help you



I think the problem is going to be, Albo left his run way too late, so he has to sell the story in 6 weeks.
He has always been out of the limelight and only older Aussies know his history, for the younger generation and new Australians he is a new face and performance on t.v is important.
How Albo performs on t.v, is how people will expect him to perform on the world stage, so it is important.
I still think the negative Scomo coverage will weigh more on him, than Albo's lack of presentation, but it may be closer than expected.


----------



## moXJO (7 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> No excuses for Albanese given the glare of media around the election not that his gaffs mean much in the big picture, he has had a long time in the public sphere and the fact that this is the only thing that the Coalition can hammer him for shows he has been competent in the respective roles he has had unlike Morrison.
> 
> Seems everyone has lined up to kick Morrison (deservedly) so expect the next Liberal to take a turn soon.
> 
> Fred Channery wrote a damming article re Morrison which I expect will put another nail in Morrison as far as WA goes.



Scomo is gone. That was clear from the start.
He's such a shtbag that negative news about him is just expected to be true.

 Scomo could light his farts on fire and give third degree burns to kittens on national tv and I don't think it would set anyone's opinion of him any lower. 

However albanese was trailing as preferred PM. Trying to talk up albo is ignoring the fact that this is the election of the least worst. 
You don't really need to because he sucks as well.


----------



## moXJO (7 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think the problem is going to be, Albo left his run way too late, so he has to sell the story in 6 weeks.
> He has always been out of the limelight and only older Aussies know his history, for the younger generation and new Australians he is a new face and performance on t.v is important.
> How Albo performs on t.v, is how people will expect him to perform on the world stage, so it is important.
> I still think the negative Scomo coverage will weigh more on him, than Albo's lack of presentation, but it may be closer than expected.



Lucky he has Biden doing a worse job to take attention away.


----------



## IFocus (7 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Scomo is gone. That was clear from the start.
> He's such a shtbag that negative news about him is just expected to be true.
> 
> Scomo could light his farts on fire and give third degree burns to kittens on national tv and I don't think it would set anyone's opinion of him any lower.
> ...





If Morrison were to win I wonder how long he would last as leader?


----------



## sptrawler (7 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> If Morrison were to win I wonder how long he would last as leader?



I think that goes for both of them, but then again non of us though biden would see out a term.


----------



## basilio (7 May 2022)

Very astute  media performance by   ScoMo. Absolutely nails it.

* Morrison flawlessly recites Coalition’s zero-point climate policy        * 

In another impressive media performance, the Prime Minister has successfully recalled all zero points from his party’s climate change plan, showing once again his command over detail during election campaigns.  

Touring a cheese making facility while dressed as an airline pilot, Mr Morrison expertly responded to rapid-fire questions from journalists.       

Asked by one broadcaster if he could recite the detail of the Government’s climate policy, Morrison confidently said ‘Yep’, before pausing briefly and then taking the next question.

The PM was also able to reel off the Coalition’s zero-point plan for stopping corruption, as well as its no-step strategy for tackling housing affordability, in what has been described as a commanding performance.

Morrison then led journalists on a tour of a pretend supermarket where he pointed to and correctly named a range of fruits and vegetables.


----------



## macca (7 May 2022)

basilio said:


> Very astute  media performance by   ScoMo. Absolutely nails it.
> 
> * Morrison flawlessly recites Coalition’s zero-point climate policy        *
> 
> ...



I think you meant to post this here..........






						Political Satire
					

Could this possible be true ? That a key element of the electorate that votes the Liberal Party into power does so because they quietly recognise the PM is on their side ?  Just the old tap on the side of the nose trick.;)  “The PM is definitely racist,” Liberal party says in desperate attempt...




					www.aussiestockforums.com


----------



## PZ99 (7 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> If Morrison were to win I wonder how long he would last as leader?



Pretty sure whoever wins will get a full term.

Both parties have a process in place that makes deposing a leader much harder than in the past.


----------



## moXJO (8 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> If Morrison were to win I wonder how long he would last as leader?



I just can't see scomo winning. Albo would have to seriously stuff it up. I just don't think it's possible to lose from here.


----------



## basilio (8 May 2022)

Two weeks to go and the Libs pull out the big guns. Good ol John Howard  brands Albo as a *" left wing inner city bomb thrower *" and having no policies.

No surprise here of course. Except he didn't bring up the baby bayoneting allegations or the other allegations that the entire Labour front bench (and back bench) is a front for pedophiles  and  Christian killing commies ?  An oversight or just biding their time.

But there is still two weeks to go so plenty of time for more dirt isn't there.



			https://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=HSWEB_WRE170_a&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldsun.com.au%2Fnews%2Fnational%2Ffederal-election%2Ffederal-election-john-howard-brands-anthony-albanese-a-left-wing-innercity-bomb-thrower%2Fnews-story%2F5c9df453fabb4be5e4a7178d5a3d9671&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-warm-test-score&V21spcbehaviour=append


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> I just can't see scomo winning. Albo would have to seriously stuff it up. I just don't think it's possible to lose from here.



I was listening to some analysis the other day and it for a large part, depends on what happens here in Western Australia.

In my own seat of hasluck, I wouldn't be surprised to see the incumbent Lib go down. Wyatt has been virtually invisible, even the corflute signs are few and far between. He seems totally disinterested in campaigning at all.

...and still hasn't responded to my emails I sent months ago.

I'm still deciding on which order... lib-lab-green or lab-lib-green to put *last.

Then considering the pathetic cult of Kim Jun McMao over here, I wouldn't be surprised to see the punters heading the call, hypnotized, Eloi-like into the Morlockian doom.


----------



## sptrawler (9 May 2022)

So how did the "Great Debate" go?


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So how did the "Great Debate" go?



It was a shemozzle and Albo outed himself as a petty tyrant on the style of Dan Andrews


----------



## PZ99 (9 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So how did the "Great Debate" go?



Only saw 5 minutes and reached the same conclusion as Murpharoo... A genuine shit blizzard.









						Pity Australia’s voters: awful leaders’ debate cursed by absurd format and incoherent hectoring | Katharine Murphy
					

All the worst elements of an agonisingly superficial campaign came to a head in a train-wreck brawl hosted by Nine on Sunday




					www.theguardian.com
				




Now I know why it takes an hour and a half to watch 60 minutes.


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> I just can't see scomo winning. Albo would have to seriously stuff it up. I just don't think it's possible to lose from here.





I don't have a feel for it I am surrounded by Liberal supporters, one sign I guess is they have all stopped talking about the election.


----------



## moXJO (9 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> I don't have a feel for it I am surrounded by Liberal supporters, one sign I guess is they have all stopped talking about the election.



The idea of voting liberal is that governments stay out of your business. That's not what happened for the past two governments. Scomo, tbull started a noticeable slide to stifle freedoms not to mention spending like drunken idiots. 

Labor is worse of course. But libs need a clean out to get them back to basics. 


Given albo is a left-wing fanatic, I'm not exactly looking forward to a Labor term. But we may need some (hopefully) different takes on Australia's current position.

Libs have handled things like covid well imo. But have fallen down in other areas.

A lot of lib voters are drifting off to other parties.


----------



## moXJO (9 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> I was listening to some analysis the other day and it for a large part, depends on what happens here in Western Australia.
> 
> In my own seat of hasluck, I wouldn't be surprised to see the incumbent Lib go down. Wyatt has been virtually invisible, even the corflute signs are few and far between. He seems totally disinterested in campaigning at all.
> 
> ...



Remember the "rah-rah" round Kevin 07. Probably a similar thing round McGowan.
Some of the swing voters get caught up in the cult fever. Not to mention a lack of credible opposition.

Regrets often shown come next election.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> The idea of voting liberal is that governments stay out of your business. That's not what happened for the past two governments. Scomo, tbull started a noticeable slide to stifle freedoms not to mention spending like drunken idiots.
> 
> Labor is worse of course. But libs need a clean out to get them back to basics.
> 
> ...



Frankly this is a hospital handpass for the winner.

Quoting from the Age.

_The next prime minister will need to lead a nation of indebted home owners struggling with living rising interest rates, cost of living blowouts and regional geopolitical spot fires while engaging with a recalcitrant crossbench likely to be emboldened by the success of the "teal independents"._

Whoever wins this will be kicked out next election. Honestly the libs internally wouldn't want to win this one. They get rid of Scomo, clean up the front bench and likely come in with a massive majority in 3-4 years.


----------



## moXJO (9 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Frankly this is a hospital handpass for the winner.
> 
> Quoting from the Age.
> 
> ...



It's possible albo will surprise to the upside and end up being a decent PM. God knows there's little "slickness" about him.
Opinions are set pretty low, so it's easy to jump the bar.

Everything you typed is right. Hopefully we jump on the India bandwagon next and survive any "bloodbath".


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> The idea of voting liberal is that governments stay out of your business. That's not what happened for the past two governments. Scomo, tbull started a noticeable slide to stifle freedoms not to mention spending like drunken idiots.
> 
> Labor is worse of course. But libs need a clean out to get them back to basics.
> 
> ...




I have watch Albanese for a long time and he far from a left wing fanatic more central in his politics but certainly has a social consonance.

Albanese will be fine as Australian PM as long as the team behind him behave, he wont have he same power over his MP's like Morrison who has a far nastier streak.   

As for the current crowd in for the Coalition / Liberals they long departed the traditions of the Liberal party and have gone down the ideological, corporate sponsored, market fixes every thing neoliberal BS road.

Of course this all gets thrown out to get re-elected spending is it $200bil (debt)... unbelievable. 

As Knobby says next term will be pretty hard and Labor wont have the PR capabilities to sell there efforts no matter how good.

Still Labor really just have two jobs ICAC and royal commissions into rorts, conflicts on Ministers and ROBO debt there needs to be public hangings and flogging for those.


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> I have watch Albanese for a long time and he far from a left wing fanatic more central in his politics but certainly has a social consonance.
> 
> Albanese will be fine as Australian PM as long as the team behind him behave, he wont have he same power over his MP's like Morrison who has a far nastier streak.
> 
> ...



What's the point when you have clowns like Andrews who are able to not co-operate.

An ICAC will be absolutely useless without *neutrality, *independence and *TEETH.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Albanese will be fine as Australian PM as long as the team behind him behave, he wont have he same power over his MP's like Morrison who has a far nastier streak.




I agree with that.

Labor's front bench looks pretty good. Clare and Chalmers especially.

I'm still a bit worried about the thrusting women like Kenneally and Wong and the underlying political correctness that values gender/racial/sexual identity above ability.

There needs to be some hard heads on the financial front. No one has mentioned a mining tax, but surely that has to be on the agenda given our massive debt and deficit.

To not consider that measure is to condemn taxpayers to decades of debt.

Neither side has said anything about the revenue or savings side. That's pretty disingenuous in my opinion.


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Frankly this is a hospital handpass for the winner.
> 
> Quoting from the Age.
> 
> ...



It's a reasonable hypothesis.

However the LNP has not managed to do so in any of the state jurisdictions thus far.

Let's say Scotty gets the arse, who then? Who would truly represent the core Liberal voter with at being fodder for the largely left-wing media?

Who is the truly centre-right candidate that won't be white-anted by the likes of Turnbull and the leftist media.

Liberals do not have a candidate which truly represents their base constituency, who is also electible.

I'm not trying to predict the result in 3 years time but what I am predicting is that it's going to be a worse shemozzle. again


----------



## Knobby22 (9 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's a reasonable hypothesis.
> 
> However the LNP has not managed to do so in any of the state jurisdictions thus far.
> 
> ...



I reckon they are behind the times and reactive. A modern leader with a stated agenda would be popular.
Up to them.


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I reckon they are behind the times and reactive. A modern leader with a stated agenda would be popular.
> Up to them.



Do you mean by "behind the times" and "more modern  leader"?


----------



## Knobby22 (9 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Do you mean by "behind the times" and "more modern  leader"?



On the way to somewhere but its just about every facet of government.
Energy policy is a good example. So much more that could be done better to advatage Australuan businesses longterm against their international competitors. Industry policy , maybe have one.


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> On the way to somewhere but its just about every facet of government.
> Energy policy is a good example. So much more that could be done better to advatage Australuan businesses longterm against their international competitors. Industry policy , maybe have one.



So basically following the WEF agenda?







Knobby22 said:


> On the way to somewhere but its just about every facet of government.
> Energy policy is a good example. So much more that could be done better to advatage Australuan businesses longterm against their international competitors. Industry policy , maybe have one.



So you mean basically following the wef agenda?

I am going to out on a limb and say that is actually a regressive, antihuman agenda. Perhaps it might take a few years or even a few decades to prove that. Maybe I will have even carked it by that time, but I am 100% certain that I will be proven right.

The bizarre thing is that I don't even have children where I have skin in this game, whereas those with children sing to be happy to consign them to a dystopian world.


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2022)

Whatever happened to visionary politics, big policy ideas, and governments with bold reform agendas?

Australia faces a range of daunting challenges, yet Coalition and Labor governments have been in the grip of policy paralysis.

That’s the view of public policy experts, Martin Parkinson and John Daley.

Why has policy ambition stalled, and what can be done about to address it?

Paul Barclay speaks to Martin and John at Adelaide Writers Week.

Recorded on March 9, 2022

Speakers:

John Daley – Professorial Fellow, University of Melbourne; former CEO, the Grattan Institute.

Dr Martin Parkinson - author, _A Decade of Drift_; former Commonwealth Treasury Secretary; former Secretary of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.










						Policy Drift
					

Whatever happened to visionary politics, big policy ideas, and governments with bold reform agendas? Australia faces a range of daunting challenges, yet Coalition and Labor governments have been in the grip of policy paralysis. That’s the view of public policy experts, Martin Parkinson and John...



					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Whatever happened to visionary politics, big policy ideas, and governments with bold reform agendas?
> 
> Australia faces a range of daunting challenges, yet Coalition and Labor governments have been in the grip of policy paralysis.
> 
> ...



Actually, I would like government to butt out as much as possible. Leave us the f*** alone to run our own lives.


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Actually, I would like government to butt out as much as possible. Leave us the f*** alone to run our own lives.




Like how they butted out of the banks ripping off all and sundry blind (still do) unabated?


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> What's the point when you have clowns like Andrews who are able to not co-operate.
> 
> An ICAC will be absolutely useless without *neutrality, *independence and *TEETH.





Andrews, Vic state premier? 


Talking federal ICAC hopefully along the lines of the NSW state ICAC.


----------



## sptrawler (9 May 2022)

I think this election is the most definitive one in my lifetime, I just am looking forward to the outcome.


----------



## PZ99 (9 May 2022)

RE: centre-right leader - I think the Libs might eventually consider Michaelia Cash if she drops out of the senate.

Also... who let the PUP out.... again ?








						United Australia party directs preferences to Coalition in key marginal seats
					

Clive Palmer walks back promise to preference incumbents last as part of concerted campaign against the two major parties




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Like how they butted out of the banks ripping off all and sundry blind (still do) unabated?



Dude, the gumint facilitates it.

Look deeper.


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Andrews, Vic state premier?
> 
> 
> Talking federal ICAC hopefully along the lines of the NSW state ICAC.



Again, look deeper.


----------



## wayneL (9 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think this election is the most definitive one in my lifetime, I just am looking forward to the outcome.



I'm not.

Because either way, unless 'Strayans wake the fark up. The outcome will be equally *bad*


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Actually, I would like government to butt out as much as possible. Leave us the f*** alone to run our own lives.




The government has to take charge of the energy sector otherwise private enterprise will gouge the consumer for all they are worth.

It's an essential service the price of which erupts like a volcano through the economy and society.

The Libs have stuffed it up with their 'free market' ideology and it's time to reign in in. If competition doesn't produce lower prices then the industry has to be regulated.


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2022)

I see the pork barrelling is alive and well.
$2.2b would put in a $hit load of E.V charging infrastructure, or buy out a couple of major power stations, rather than funding someone's pet rail legacy project.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I see the pork barrelling is alive and well.
> $2.2b would put in a $hit load of E.V charging infrastructure, rather than funding someone's pet rail legacy project.
> Or buy out a couple of major power stations.
> 
> ...




OK, so it's not a good idea to get cars off the road whether they be ICE or EV's ?

Maybe EV owners would be glad of public transport when they have to pay increased road charges to compensate for the fuel excise they won't be paying to the government. And as we have discussed before, it's inevitable that EV's will be slugged by a levy of some sort to replace lost revenue.


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, so it's not a good idea to get cars off the road whether they be ICE or EV's ?
> 
> Maybe EV owners would be glad of public transport when they have to pay increased road charges to compensate for the fuel excise they won't be paying to the government. And as we have discussed before, it's inevitable that EV's will be slugged by a levy of some sort to replace lost revenue.



It's certainly not getting you me or a lot of NSW,Qld, S.A, NT, W.A and Tassies off the road and I know we are all putting in train tracks. Doesn't Melbourne city centre have an electric tram system already?
But I guess as long as the lipstick is put on the right pig, it is ok. 😂

As for the fuel excise, isn't that a Federal tax and hasn't Dan already put a new E.V tax for loss of excise that he doesn't get.


----------



## PZ99 (10 May 2022)

The electric tram system only covers the city - this railway line is a loop to include the airport.

Currently you have to get a bus to go to the airport and that leaves you exposed to the traffic on the Tullamarine Fwy which is basically a shopping centre carpark. It's just not adequate for getting to the airport in the 21st century.

But I thought all this was happening under the Turnbull Govt ? They must have backed out citing expense or a grudge with the Victorian Govt - or both


----------



## IFocus (10 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I see the pork barrelling is alive and well.
> $2.2b would put in a $hit load of E.V charging infrastructure, or buy out a couple of major power stations, rather than funding someone's pet rail legacy project.
> 
> 
> View attachment 141429




Rail infrastructure pork barrelling?

So you prefer car parks... sorry couldn't resist I know you don't.


----------



## wayneL (10 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The government has to take charge of the energy sector otherwise private enterprise will gouge the consumer for all they are worth.
> 
> It's an essential service the price of which erupts like a volcano through the economy and society.
> 
> The Libs have stuffed it up with their 'free market' ideology and it's time to reign in in. If competition doesn't produce lower prices then the industry has to be regulated.



I'm not agin government involvement in essential public utilities, even government ownership.

However I would never categorise the current power market as laissez-faire.


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Rail infrastructure pork barrelling?
> 
> So you prefer car parks... sorry couldn't resist I know you don't.



I didn't realise pork barreling was categorised, I thought it was funneling money to a specific area in order to sway voters. 😂

Shame he couldn't promise W.A $2b for the airport rail link, that we in W.A are funding, but then again i suppose it depends which pig has the lipstick. 
Just saying, some wear an eye patch. 





__





						Perth Airport - Corporate | To and from Perth Airport
					






					www.perthairport.com.au
				




The $2 billion State Government-funded Forrestfield-Airport Link is the transport solution to improve connections to and from Perth Airport, the eastern suburbs and regional centres.

The rail link will connect with the existing Midland line near Bayswater Station and will run to Forrestfield through underground tunnels, to ensure minimal impact on the existing land and road network.





__





						Loading...
					





					www.heraldsun.com.au
				



IT is official - WA Premier Colin Barnett will not receive one cent for his promised $4 billion rail projects if Tony Abbott wins the federal election









						Governments agree $A10bn funding for Melbourne Airport Rail Link
					

The Australian federal and Victorian state governments have signed a heads of agreement for a $A 10bn joint commitment to the Melbourne Airport Rail Link




					www.railjournal.com
				




THE Australian federal and Victorian state governments have signed a heads of agreement which sets out the strategic objectives, governance arrangements and information sharing processes for a $A 10bn ($US 7bn) joint commitment to building the Melbourne Airport Rail Link.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I didn't realise pork barreling was categorised, I thought it was funneling money to a specific area in order to sway voters. 😂




A lot of grey lines there.

Whoever is in charge of an ICAC after the election should provide a pretty clear definition on when government grants will be considered corruption, so governments don't accidentally step over the mark.


----------



## IFocus (10 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I didn't realise pork barreling was categorised, I thought it was funneling money to a specific area in order to sway voters. 😂
> 
> Shame he couldn't promise W.A $2b for the airport rail link, that we in W.A are funding, but then again i suppose it depends which pig has the lipstick.
> Just saying, some wear an eye patch.
> ...




Tony Abbott.


----------



## wayneL (10 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Tony Abbott.



Yep, the only leader of any country, anywhere on the planet, at any time in history, who has ever pork barreled any constituency in any electorate, anywhere.


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Tony Abbott.



Yes he pulled the funding way back in 2013, we are still trying to build it. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> The electric tram system only covers the city - this railway line is a loop to include the airport.
> 
> Currently you have to get a bus to go to the airport and that leaves you exposed to the traffic on the Tullamarine Fwy which is basically a shopping centre carpark. It's just not adequate for getting to the airport in the 21st century.
> 
> But I thought all this was happening under the Turnbull Govt ? They must have backed out citing expense or a grudge with the Victorian Govt - or both



My appologies, I thought they were two seperate projects, I thought the city loop was an Andrews brain fart, my error.


----------



## PZ99 (10 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My appologies, I thought they were two seperate projects, I thought the city loop was an Andrews brain fart, my error.



No it's all good - we had a similar setup with a railway line in Sydney about 20 years ago and it made a big difference.

The airport loves it because they make a truckload of $$$ from their entry tarrifs.

A train ticket to Mascot is around $6 - next stop airport... $20


----------



## IFocus (10 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes he pulled the funding way back in 2013, we are still trying to build it. 🤣




Big job must be getting close haven't been keeping track


 As for Abbott he just diverted the funds to his sponsors spending under Abbott still went up.

j


----------



## Eager (10 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I see the pork barrelling is alive and well.
> $2.2b would put in a $hit load of E.V charging infrastructure, or buy out a couple of major power stations, rather than funding someone's pet rail legacy project.



What a silly response. How could it be called pork barrelling when the route of the proposed railway traverses both red and blue seats?


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2022)

Eager said:


> What a silly response. How could it be called pork barrelling when the route of the proposed railway traverses both red and blue seats?



What silly reasoning, if the seats are marginal or if the project was important enough locally to sway the constituents, it doesn't matter what colour seats they are, tut tut.


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2022)

Master stroke by Albo IMO.








						Albanese sparks political storm by backing wage rise to match inflation
					

The government accused the Labor leader of making “policy on the run” while businesses said a higher minimum wage would destroy jobs.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Labor leader Anthony Albanese has sparked a political storm by backing an increase in the minimum wage of at least 5.1 per cent


----------



## SirRumpole (11 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Master stroke by Albo IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good tactics. It forces Morrison to say that workers don't deserve a pay rise. Makes Morrison look like a Scrooge.


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

I still ain't voting for the heathen.


----------



## PZ99 (11 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Good tactics. It forces Morrison to say that workers don't deserve a pay rise. Makes Morrison look like a Scrooge.



It's already made him look like a bit of a dill. A pay rise for the lowest paid workers isn't going to blow out inflation.

It just stops them from going broke eventually.

If the Govts' paranoia about inflation is high wages then just increase the super guarantee - it's not rocket science.

Anyway.... we now know the ALP is for workers and the LNP is not.... 'twas ever thus


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> It's already made him look like a bit of a dill. A pay rise for the lowest paid workers isn't going to blow out inflation.
> 
> It just stops them from going broke eventually.
> 
> ...



With pay scale parities, if the minimum wage goes up 5%, it should have a knock on effect, to maintain relativity.
The Govt don't have to worry about the super guarantee, as bracket creep takes care of it and any knock on inflation increases the GST take.
So win/win for the government, the unemployed and low income earners feel the effect of the resultant inflation, but that is a spur for them to get a better job.  
Starting to remind me of the mid 1970's, which was a great time for the workers, the 1980's when they were trying to fix it, not so good. 🥳
Nothing wrong with a bit of boom and bust IMO. Usually plenty of opportunities present, for the cashed up investor.
So it a yes from me.


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

So... Definitely not supporting the Libs by posting this, as you should all know by now that they will be third last on my ballot.

But just kind of of showing the total dirty politics indulged in by the Labor Party (and by the way please post up any incidences of the Liberals doing the same because that would be really interesting too).


----------



## PZ99 (11 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> With pay scale parities, if the minimum wage goes up 5%, it should have a knock on effect, to maintain relativity.
> The Govt don't have to worry about the super guarantee, as bracket creep takes care of it and any knock on inflation increases the GST take.
> So win/win for the government, the unemployed and low income earners feel the effect of the resultant inflation, but that is a spur for them to get a better job.
> Starting to remind me of the mid 1970's, which was a great time for the workers, the 1980's when they were trying to fix it, not so good. 🥳
> ...



Better music back then too


----------



## SirRumpole (11 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> I still ain't voting for the heathen.
> 
> View attachment 141480



I always thought you were Right out there !


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I always thought you were Right out there !



Well I think the abc's concept of left and right wing is pretty skewed.

I mean having the most woke, leftist front bench in history of the Labor Party, positioned as centrist, is clearly ridiculous.


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> But just kind of of showing the total dirty politics indulged in by the Labor Party (and by the way please post up any incidences of the Liberals doing the same because that would be really interesting too).



Relying on SKY for honest reporting is like relying on Morrison to committing to CO2 reduction.


wayneL said:


> I mean having the most woke, leftist front bench in history of the Labor Party, positioned as centrist, is clearly ridiculous.



Not if the right keeps lurching further towards extremism!


----------



## moXJO (11 May 2022)

Is UAP polling higher this time?

Seems the general population might be a bit more switched on to every parties BS and lies this time round.


----------



## PZ99 (11 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Is UAP polling higher this time?
> 
> Seems the general population might be a bit more switched on to every parties BS and lies this time round.



Steady at 4% off the last Newspoll... also looks like the teal indies aren't doing too well 

All I can say is bloody hell...


----------



## moXJO (11 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Steady at 4% off the last Newspoll... also looks like the teal indies aren't doing too well
> 
> All I can say is bloody hell...



Just looked up some of the greens policies. God help us if they get balance of power.


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

rederob said:


> Relying on SKY for honest reporting is like relying on Morrison to committing to CO2 reduction.
> 
> Not if the right keeps lurching further towards extremism!
> View attachment 141484



I am truly sorry to have offended your religion Rederob. However the facts here are clear...

They lied.

And I don't feel I need to repeat my early disclaimer, but the libs suck as well.


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> They lied.



You need to show it was no so.
Can you do that?


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

rederob said:


> You need to show it was no so.
> Can you do that?



The video already showed the context of the statements.


----------



## explod (11 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Just looked up some of the greens policies. God help us if they get balance of power.



God help us if they don't


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> The video already showed the context of the statements.



Morrison did and said all the things quoted.
It's not the job of an advertiser to explain context.
That's why the media typically chooses images which complement their message rather than draw from the context.


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

rederob said:


> Morrison did and said all the things quoted.
> It's not the job of an advertiser to explain context.
> That's why the media typically chooses images which complement their message rather than draw from the context.



Quite, which is why you have been hoist by your own petard.


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Quite, which is why you have been hoist by your own petard.



At some point you might learn how to substantiate a claim rather than present a baseless claim.
I look forward to that day.


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

rederob said:


> At some point you might learn how to substantiate a claim rather than present a baseless claim.
> I look forward to that day.



Watch.
The.
Video.

Rather than sticking your fingers in your ears singing la la la la la.

Jeezzuz!


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Watch.
> The.
> Video.
> 
> ...



I did that and responded accordingly.
FYI there is a gulf of a difference between a quote used without context, and being used out of context.  Credlin is not smart enough to work that out and you have followed suit.  
No reasonable person could infer the the various contexts from the few words spoken, so Credlin has filled that gap with her expose.
However, using Timjbo's "*outright lies*" claim warrants exposing the lies, and you still won't or can't do that.


----------



## wayneL (11 May 2022)

rederob said:


> I did that and responded accordingly.
> FYI there is a gulf of a difference between a quote used without context, and being used out of context.  Credlin is not smart enough to work that out and you have followed suit.
> No reasonable person could infer the the various contexts from the few words spoken, so Credlin has filled that gap with her expose.
> However, using Timjbo's "*outright lies*" claim warrants exposing the lies, and you still won't or can't do that.



Well I am all ears rederob, perhaps you can do an expose' of the context.

Like I said I am not trying to elicit any sort of support for the Liberal Party, not what I am trying to do here. However I'm trying to expose the bulshit advertising of the major parties, in this case the Labor Party.

Would be very happy for an expose of 
the advertising the liberal party too.

Over to you my pharisaic friend


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Well I am all ears rederob, perhaps you can do an expose' of the context.



How about you live up to you claim of "lies" as a starter.
Borrowing from Scomo, *it's not my job.*


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Master stroke by Albo IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OMG just when I thought they had played the trump card to the entitled electorate, they choke WTF.
My god a dose of reality is just what was needed and they blow it.
Why can't we have 5% wage rises? Why can't the younger generation have to deal with 10% home loan interest? Maybe then they wouldn't bid up house prices
By the way I wouldn't mind 10% on my term deposit, that I've been getting 0% for years and no one has given a $hit about.  🤣
It certainly is time for a reality check.  Let it roll.









						Labor leaves room to retreat from Albanese’s wage rise call
					

One industry leader said Labor was “crab-walking” away from Albanese’s 5.1 per cent figure after Jim Chalmers added a caveat to the leader’s support.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Labor has softened its stance for a 5.1 per cent increase in the minimum wage after a political firestorm over the cost to employers, saying it is yet to decide whether to set the target in a formal submission if it wins the May 21 election.
One day after Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese said he “absolutely” supported a 5.1 per cent increase to prevent wages falling below inflation, his colleagues left room to retreat from the goal when the Fair Work Commission rules on the question in June.

DON'T BE HOODWINKED, VOTE ALBO ONE, THE WORKER WILL BE A LOT BETTER OFF.

Could be another lose the unlosable election moment, what a mess.


----------



## moXJO (11 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> OMG just when I thought they had played the trump card to the entitled electorate, they choke WTF.
> My god a dose of reality is just what was needed and they blow it.
> Why can't we have 5% wage rises? Why can't the younger generation have to deal with 10% home loan interest? Maybe then they wouldn't bid up house prices
> By the way I wouldn't mind 10% on my term deposit, that I've been getting 0% for years and no one has given a $hit about.  🤣
> ...



He's just lucky everyone has zero interest in this election.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> He's just lucky everyone has zero interest in this election.



You're spot on, we went to vote today, they were lined up down the street.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> He's just lucky everyone has zero interest in this election.



Except the MEDIA that delight in tripping everyone up especially Albo.

Really, some of the media have gone feral, I wonder what they do the rest of the time when there is no election on.

A very small sample of people gave Albanese a win in the last debate, if that matters.


----------



## PZ99 (12 May 2022)

It doesn't matter what target Labor set.. 5% , 10% whatever, It's just one of thousands of opinions sent to fairwork prior to the next wage review. The Morrison Govt doesn't send one at all which can only be seen as apathy despite claiming the contrary. 

If Labor are now walking away from it then it was obviously one of Albo's "captain calls".  That's going to be a problem for Labor if they win Govt because having a lefty leading a party with a caucus of 70/30 leaning to the right is a recipe for another Gough or Gillard style disunity.

I think Labor should grow a pair and not only stick with the 5.1% but also recommend the Sunday penalty rates for retail / hospitality be changed back to their previous level.

Then if they win Govt they should legislate tax cuts for small business to pay for the above.

Of course that means the taxpayer pays for all this but if that means they benefit from more shops staying open and more spending power then it's a win/win


----------



## rederob (12 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Of course that means the taxpayer pays for all this but if that means they benefit from more shops staying open and more spending power then it's a win/win



As proven by the covid booster payment for unemployed a few years back, those on low incomes pour back into the economy nearly every extra dollar they receive, so any increase of the basic wage will be largely stimulatory.   
On the other end of the scale you have the leprechauns that pocket Jobkeeper while sacking employees and rehiring cheaper contractors, and Qantas was not alone on gaming the system.  As many have pointed out, Robodebt was an easy target and wouldn't cost the Coalition votes, but clawing back billions from undeserving businesses would have.

Albo's game plan (ie., "don't make yourself a target") was the complete opposite of Shorten's until the wage bid.  However, it's a bit mean spirited to deny the lowest paid a little bit more so I doubt if there will be any serious damage done as those businesses most affected would least likely be voting Labor.


----------



## wayneL (12 May 2022)

It does become a viscous inflationary cycle however, until something breaks.

But I think it's pretty inevitable as gumints and CBs have already let that cat out of the bag two years ago, wages will go up whether by market forces or mandate.

My trade has gone up roughly 10% due to costs.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 May 2022)

The decision is supposedly being made by an independent umpire and what the PM and Opposition say is irrelevant.

Bill Evans the respected Westpac economist said what he expects will happen is  a smaller rise now with a catch up rises next year.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A very small sample of people gave Albanese a win in the last debate, if that matters.



Rumpy. I have it on good authority that Scomo won.
And puppies like him also!


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 May 2022)

The trouble with Australian federal politics is all the parties have simply become stuck in a rut of entrenched dogma. Ask them a question and out comes the same basic answer every time whether it's sensible or not.

The Coalition will say that a "hands off" free market response will fix it. Anything from pandemics to housing to bushfires it's the same "not my job" hands off approach.

The Greens will find some way to say it's due to climate change and if not that then it must be big business.

Labor will blame the government without saying how they'd do it better.

United Australia Party will promise to fix it with grand sounding ideas that simply don't add up when subject to even the most basic scrutiny.

Some exceptions sure, I'd pick Labor as best of the rather bad bunch personally, but they've all turned into religious-like preachers of their ideology rather than what we need which is pragmatic leadership.

There's a place for free markets, renewable energy, criticising the government and coming up with grand ideas sure but there's also a need for leadership, keeping the oil flowing so long as we need it, presenting actual solutions to problems and being realistic about what's possible and what's not.

We need leadership not dogma on constant repeat.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> The trouble with Australian federal politics is all the parties have simply become stuck in a rut of entrenched dogma. Ask them a question and out comes the same basic answer every time whether it's sensible or not.
> 
> The Coalition will say that a "hands off" free market response will fix it. Anything from pandemics to housing to bushfires it's the same "not my job" hands off approach.
> 
> ...




I certainly agree.

For me it comes down to the point that if the current lot isn't doing the job then you sack them and give someone else a go.

Governments are like nappies, they need to be changed often and for the same reasons.


----------



## Belli (14 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I certainly agree.
> 
> For me it comes down to the point that if the current lot isn't doing the job then you sack them and give someone else a go.
> 
> Governments are like nappies, they need to be changed often and for the same reasons.




That is a position I put to a friend.  I don't know if others would do any better but I look at what challenges the current incumbents have faced and how they have dealt with them.  If I consider they are found wanting in that regard then it's time for them to go.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 May 2022)

I just think it's Morrison. He is like a cancer to the Liberal Party and is damaging it internally every day he is charge.

He is a vacuum of policy, ruthless powerbroker,  and enjoys culture war stuff setting people against against each other e.g. transgender, women, religion, Chinese. 

He is killing the Libs. He is kryptonite.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I just think it's Morrison. He is like a cancer to the Liberal Party and is damaging it internally every day he is charge.
> 
> He is a vacuum of policy, ruthless powerbroker,  and enjoys culture war stuff setting people against against each other e.g. transgender, women, religion, Chinese.
> 
> He is killing the Libs. He is kryptonite.




He's a big factor for sure but who else ? Friedburger or Dutton ? Both are politicians first with no foresight or vision. Reactionary rather than proactive.

Let's remember that Morrison has only been PM for 3 years or so. What came before was chaos as well.

* Over 20 energy policies and none implemented. 

* Butchering of the NBN because it was Labor's idea. 

* Made a $5 billion mistake on the subs.

* Made a $2 billion mistake on Robodebt. 

* Doubled the debt before the pandemic.

* Gave money to businesses that didn't need it.

* Gave money to a company to protect the Barrier Reef that had no experience in the area.

* Ministerial standards gone to pot.

* No ICAC because they have too much to hide.

* Allowing private companies to take over the electricity industry and put prices through the roof.

On virtually every aspect of performance they are incompetents. Time for a change.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> He's a big factor for sure but who else ? Friedburger or Dutton ? Both are politicians first with no foresight or vision. Reactionary rather than proactive.
> 
> Let's remember that Morrison has only been PM for 3 years or so. What came before was chaos as well.
> 
> ...



It will be earth shattering for labor, if the Coalition win, I've never seen an all in election like this one.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It will be earth shattering for labor, if the Coalition win, I've never seen an all in election like this one.




I don't think there has been an election where the policies have been so thin, but I don't think you can blame Labor for doing that after the last election. They are obviously going for the minimalist strategy , matching the Coalition's vote grabbers and throwing in a few of their own.

If Labor don't win this time then as you say they will be shattered because what else could they do ?


----------



## Knobby22 (14 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It will be earth shattering for labor, if the Coalition win, I've never seen an all in election like this one.



I have never seen Lib supporters so disappointed. I have family members inside the party and I can tell you they aren't thrilled. 

I think they can hold the ground in QLD and maybe WA due to the local media being on their side and no independent media except the ABC but NSW will be nasty imo.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think there has been an election where the policies have been so thin, but I don't think you can blame Labor for doing that after the last election. They are obviously going for the minimalist strategy , matching the Coalition's vote grabbers and throwing in a few of their own.
> 
> If Labor don't win this time then as you say they will be shattered because what else could they do ?



I personally can't see how they can't win, but I think there are a lot of people saying nothing, they will be the ones who decide it IMO.
I go for a walk in the mornings and listening to what people are saying to each other in general conversation, I'm a bit surprised with what i hear. Not a large representative group, but it is interesting, as Knobby says it may just be a W.A thing.


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2022)

Saw an article that basically said that if Josh Frydenberg gets voted out this election. Then expect Dutton to take over the libs leadership. 

Albo isn't really convincing at this point. His nerves are very noticeable. 
Scomo is the opposite, wants it too much to the point of desperation.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Saw an article that basically said that if Josh Frydenberg gets voted out this election. Then expect Dutton to take over the libs leadership.
> 
> Albo isn't really convincing at this point. His nerves are very noticeable.
> Scomo is the opposite, wants it too much to the point of desperation.




Maybe Dutton will go too.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe Dutton will go too.



Maybe they will all go?


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe they will all go?




What they need is renewal. Josh, Scott, Dutton, Taylor , Stuart Robert, Tudge et al are basically useless.

No doubt some will hang on but if Labor gets in I expect quite a number of by elections in Liberal seats afterwards.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What they need is renewal. Josh, Scott, Dutton, Taylor , Stuart Robert, Tudge et al are basically useless.
> 
> No doubt some will hang on but if Labor gets in I expect quite a number of by elections in Liberal seats afterwards.



If you think about it, the media is indicating the highest profile Libs are going to get the chop, why wouldn't it be obvious that the lower profile ones will also.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If you think about it, the media is indicating the highest profile Libs are going to get the chop, why wouldn't it be obvious that the lower profile ones will also.




The media aren't interested in the small poppies.


----------



## Ferret (14 May 2022)

I'll be glad to see the current Liberal government gone, and Morrison in particular.

That said, I'm apprehensive about a Labor government, particularly the likes of Bowen, Shorten, Keneally and Plibersek calling the shots.

To my mind, the best result would be Labor forming a minority government with support from sensible independents.  I'm in Warringah and quite happy to give my vote to Steggall again.

I'd like to see the Liberals become a bit more moderate and be a party I could vote for again in the future.  Unfortunately, it seems a lot of the moderate Libs might be gone after the election, so the rebirth I want to see is going to take a few terms.


----------



## IFocus (14 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I think they can hold the ground in QLD and maybe WA due to the local media being on their side and no independent media except the ABC but NSW will be nasty imo.





I think the Libs are gone in WA at least 3 seats IMHO still we will find out soon bit over the election BS TBH


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> I think the Libs are gone in WA at least 3 seats IMHO still we will find out soon bit over the election BS TBH



The Libs have no presence in W.A, Hastie might do o.k in Mandurah, but I wouldn't be surprised if the rest are wiped out. 🥳
Really looking forward to it, as I've said earlier, we need a change of Govt, it has been all a bit hum drum for the last three years.


----------



## IFocus (14 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The Libs have no presence in W.A, Hastie might do o.k in Mandurah, but I wouldn't be surprised if the rest aren't wiped out. 🥳
> Really looking forward to it, as I've said earlier, we need a change of Govt, it has been all a bit hum drum for the last three years.





This is worth playing with to check seats Hastie looks fairly safe









						Antony Green's election calculator - Federal election 2022
					

The Federal election calculator is loaded with the pre-election margins for all seats. Enter a national swing, select state by state swings, or choose one of the stored opinion polls, to see the result that could be produced by the chosen swing.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> This is worth playing with to check seats Hastie looks fairly safe
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hastie seems middle of the road decent guy, had a talk with him today at the early voting place out next to the hospital, when I took the daughter up there to to do an early absentee vote, she came down from Perth to drop the grandkids off.
In and out two minutes, what a winner.


----------



## PZ99 (14 May 2022)

I predict ScoMo will win but will also catch another covid meaning he won't be able to give his victory speech and John Kunkell will live to fight another day


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2022)

Who is John Kurnkell, when he's home?
 I just read this headline and the first thing I thought was, did they inform Albo and he just forget. 🤣 This election is becoming hilarious.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...nths-before-announcement-20220514-p5albm.html

It shows how well Australia is doing, when the the election is funnier than the comedy festival IMO.
You have Albo trying not to lisp and Scomo trying not to sweat, what a hoot you couldn't write this $hit. 🤣
Scomo saying back off with the lights I'm sweating like a pig and Albo saying "who is the smart ar$e who put so many SSes in the speech". 
Australia you've just got love it.
Hang on I think the cancel committee just knocked on my front door, back in a minute.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> culture war stuff setting people against against each other



One of the greatest problems facing in Australia in my view is that this has permeated right through society.

Even among friends and others I see face to face there's quite a few I wouldn't dare say even the slightest political comment to these days as they're just so highly primed on the whole thing.

Morrison didn't light that fire, it was already burning, but he's thrown and awful lot of fuel on it.

My view is that the only thing that'll fix it is not simply a change of government but a crisis. A proper, real crisis that sees Australians demands action not words.

Crisis?

I mean a major and prolonged one. Economic most likely but if not that then something else drastic enough that the population demands a strong leader who makes things happen.

To be clear I don't wish for that in the slightest but I can't see Australian politics improving until such a crisis arises and the lack of leadership we have is ultimately pushing us toward it. When nobody's steering the ship well you can't necessarily predict what it runs into but you can predict that it ends up running into something sooner or later.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> One of the greatest problems facing in Australia in my view is that this has permeated right through society.
> 
> Even among friends and others I see face to face there's quite a few I wouldn't dare say even the slightest political comment to these days as they're just so highly primed on the whole thing.
> 
> ...




The basic problem as I see it is ideology.

Ideology doesn't work all the time, and the best leadership are people who recognise that and aren't afraid to implement policy of 'the other side' when the evidence is that it will work.


----------



## wayneL (15 May 2022)

It's going to be interesting in my seat of Hasluck, there is Buckley's chance of anyone outside of Liberal or Labor getting the lower house seat, but there is heaps and heaps of interest in the freedom parties... Don't know how much of that turns into votes but we shall see. 

I think the sitting Liberal member will go down to be honest, Wyatt has been virtually invisible until the last two or 3 days. ( And the mongrel still hasn't answered my emails)

The upper house might be a different story and I wouldn't be surprised to see some minor Party senators.

That remains my hope, that there is a healthy and sensible crossbench (not the Teal heathen though)


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

It sounds as though Josh Frydenberg is done and dusted.









						Frydenberg appears set to lose Kooyong – but he's not under threat because of the budget, or the economy
					

No one really thinks voters in Kooyong are turning against Josh Frydenberg because of the state of the economy. He's under threat because of where his government, and his prime minister, have taken politics in the last three years, writes Laura Tingle.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

In all the time I've been on this forum, this is the quietest I've ever seen the run up to the election, where is the banter, the rah rah, the sledging? What is happening, is it that beige an election, or are people just not sure which way to roll?


----------



## basilio (15 May 2022)

A humorous summary of the ScoMo governments electioneering to date.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

basilio said:


> A humorous summary of the ScoMo governments electioneering to date.




Well Bas, after the years and years of bagging Trump, I would have thought you would have been full tilt against Scomo. 😂

What about a bit of what the plans are?


----------



## basilio (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In all the time I've been on this forum, this is the quietest I've ever seen the run up to the election, where is the banter, the rah rah, the sledging? What is happening, is it that beige an election, or are people just not sure which way to roll?




Why ? As far as I can see almost everyone on both sides of politics isn't impressed with the current governments record.

The Labour opposition has created as small a target as possible and seems to have ditched almost any courageous policies in place of safe proposals.

I believe most people think the Government will be thrown out but Labour supporters  want to see the votes and Libs are just praying quietly.

Meanwhile a few million people have already voted. Hopefully the latest Newspoll figures are on the money.









						Latest Opinion Polls Australia 2022: Coalition gains in the Weekend but can they Sustain the recovery? - CrowdWisdom360
					

Latest Opinion Polls Australia 2022: Liberal/National 32.7%, ALP 36.2%, Greens 12.0%. 13th May TPP Votes: Liberals/National 44.8%, ALP 55.2%. ALP has the highest lead since the campaign began




					crowdwisdom.live


----------



## wayneL (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In all the time I've been on this forum, this is the quietest I've ever seen the run up to the election, where is the banter, the rah rah, the sledging? What is happening, is it that beige an election, or are people just not sure which way to roll?



It's because all but the most tribal cheerleaders know that either way, we are well and truly @#$&ed.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's because all but the most tribal cheerleaders know that either way, we are well and truly @#$&ed.



Which IMO is great, there is absolute confusion, most know that a $hit load of money has been thrown at helping everyone, but everyone hates those that threw it at them.
Now the problem is they have to decide who is going to help them from here, the media has talked up a storm, it will be interesting to see what the aftermath is IMO.
I think Labor will romp it in, but I don't think Labor believe they will, there are a lot of nervous politicians ATM. 😂


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In all the time I've been on this forum, this is the quietest I've ever seen the run up to the election, where is the banter, the rah rah, the sledging? What is happening, is it that beige an election, or are people just not sure which way to roll?




I think it's because the policies are so thin.

What can we really discuss when both sides are making themselves as small a target as possible ?

It basically comes down to whether the Coalition deserve to be returned rather than whether Labor deserve to win .

Maybe it's so quiet because we are basically all of the same mind so there is no argument ?

Humid is probably manning a Labor polling booth somewhere and rederob is likely doing the same at a Green's one. Maybe wayneL is doing it for Pauline or Clive leaving just us mere mortals to discuss  two incredibly bland campaigns.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it's because the policies are so thin.
> 
> What can we really discuss when both sides are making themselves as small a target as possible ?
> 
> ...



You're probably right, but it is a weird sensation, like the quiet before the storm, obviously the last election scared the bejeezuz out of everyone.
But logics has to prevail IMO, the Libs have been in for a long time and the same crew get stale, you have to have a change of Government to stimulate new agenda's, new ideas, a fresh look at old problems.
I don't for one minute think the Coalition has done a bad job, we have recovered from a massive fiscal shutdown within 20 months, that is just amazing.
But it doesn't IMO mean that they will be great going on from here, the major problem will be the holes that will need backfilling, were dug by them for better or worse, so it will be hard for them to say we need to tighten the belt because we loosened it too far.
For a Labor Government they just have to say, well we need to fix this we didn't cause it, but unfortunately we have to fix it.
It just works, so really there isn't a choice IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't for one minute think the Coalition has done a bad job, we have recovered from a massive fiscal shutdown within 20 months, that is just amazing.




I'm not sure the Coalition had much to do with the recovery anyway. People couldn't go out so they saved their cash then splurged it when the restrictions were lifted. 

The fall in unemployment was due to the fact that borders were closed and imported labour couldn't get in so naturally employers had to turn to local workers.

How long will the recovery last when the gates are opened and people have to fight for jobs again ?


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not sure the Coalition had much to do with the recovery anyway. People couldn't go out so they saved their cash then splurged it when the restrictions were lifted.



That's a nice thought, but in reality a lot of money was given to people who became unemployed and a lot of money was paid to companies to keep people on the payroll to work from home.
Memories are short and it didn't affect me, but i did watch a lady who was running a successful travel agency have a meltdown, she wasn't a friend or a relative but someone who my wife and I had booked an expensive trip through.
Being in Mandurah, it is a small town really, but watching her navigate through the whole pandemic was interesting, I got all my money back she managed her staff and closed down her business in an orderly manner, only due to Govt assistance. I still talk to her when walking the dog on the foreshore, the difference now is amazing, it isn't all doom and gloom.
Now she has downsized to a W.A focused business, but if it wasn't for the Govt I'm pretty sure she would have lopped herself and I'm not joking.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's a nice thought, but in reality a lot of money was given to people who became unemployed and a lot of money was paid to companies to keep people on the payroll to work from home.
> Memories are short and it didn't affect me, but i did watch a lady who was running a successful travel agency have a meltdown, she wasn't a friend or a relative but someone who I had booked an expensive trip through.
> Being in Mandurah, it is a small town really, but watching her navigate through the whole pandemic was interesting, I got all my money back she managed her staff and closed down her business in an orderly manner, only due to Govt assistance.
> Now she has downsized to a W.A focused business, but if it wasn't for the Govt I'm pretty sure she would have lopped herself and I'm not joking.




I think Labor would have done the same or a similar thing, acting on advice from the Treasury/Health Departments, the actions were pretty bi-partisan as I recall.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think Labor would have done the same or a similar thing, acting on advice from the Treasury/Health Departments, the actions were pretty bi-partisan as I recall.



Very possibly they would have, but if we are going to be honest, Kev put up the pension and the pension age to pay for it, I wouldn't mention that other than he is being a bitch at the moment. 😂
Also last month I finally cracked my new 66.5 year pension age and my garbo mate has retired because next month he is 66.5 years old. 😂


----------



## Knobby22 (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Very possibly they would have, but if we are going to be honest, Kev put up the pension and the pension age to pay for it, I wouldn't mention that other than he is being a bitch at the moment. 😂
> Also last month I finally cracked my new 66.5 year pension age and my garbo mate has retired because next month he is 66.5 years old. 😂



Is it 66.5 to get the pension?


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Is it 66.5 to get the pension?



It is for me, the wife doesn't qualify until 67, she was born in 1957.
Ah the irony, I just hope the next term takes it up to 70, why should only we suffer. 😂
BRING IT ON BABY.  
What was the last thing Howard and Costello said?"We are in surplus we will reduce taxes", they were thrown out and what has happened since then. 😂
A mess, of promising everything and not working out how to fund it, just like the household budget, eventually afterpay runs out.
That's why Costello and the future fund have tripled our sovereign wealth fund and our budget has been blown to bits.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What was the last thing Howard and Costello said?"We are in surplus we will reduce taxes", they were thrown out and what has happened since then. 😂



If only it was, they would be in still.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> If only it was, they would be in still.



Actually Howard was toppled by a parachuted in Labor ABC celeb Maxine McKew who was out next election from memory.
So just shows how the "shallow Hal" of Australian politics goes.
It also shows, how the output or outcome of any Government means so little, whether they do well fiscally, socially or economically means little , if the people are fully invested in the media narrative.
That whole election revolved around work choices, which from memory was to increase the rights of employers, as to who they employed.
I've voted already and I've voted labor, there is no way we can keep throwing money at people, the way that it has been done the last two years over a bad flu, it is just stupid IMO.
I haven't had covid, several on hre have had it and have survived, so why the hell did all my dividends and money go down the toilet?
Lets get some austerity happening IMO.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Actually Howard was toppled by a parachuted in Labor ABC celeb Maxine McKew who was out next election from memory.
> So just shows how the "shallow Hal" of Australian politics goes.
> Also shows, how the output or outcome of any Government means so little, whether they do well fiscally, socially or economically means little , if the people are fully invested in the media narrative.



Nah, he toppled himself.
The election before he won with an increased majority and I and everyone I knew voted for him.
I remember him saying when he won that he warned the party to not get carried away and then he brought out new labour laws to legally cut our wages and before I know it I am being asked to sign a contract giving away holiday leave, 4 weeks only if made redundant and a friend is told he now has to work weekends for no extra pay  or lose his job.

He lost his seat because everyone was angry at him. He had Australia at his feet and  then he attacked us. I had young kids and a big mortgage so just signed away my conditions for a tiny wage rise.  It was a stressful time.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Nah, he toppled himself.
> The election before he won with an increased majority and I and everyone I knew voted for him.
> I remember him saying when he won that he warned the party to not get carried away and then he brought out new labour laws to legally cut our wages and before I know it I am being asked to sign a contract giving away holiday leave, 4 weeks only if made redundant and a friend is told he now has to work weekends for no extra pay  or lose his job.
> 
> He lost his seat because everyone was angry at him. He had Australia at his feet and  then he attacked us. I had young kids and a big mortgage so just signed away my conditions for a tiny wage rise.  It was a stressful time.



It's all got better since then. 
Sacking Fluck Witt's was a problem then, it is still a problem now. He wanted to steamline getting rid off useless clunts, which created problems for unions. 
And I've never run a small business and have been retired for 11 years, but when i talk to people in the coffee shops, kebab shops, the pub etc. 
They all say it is still scary employing people because you will be in court over unfair dismissal if you aren't happy with them.
The local pub I go to pay a huge amount of money, to get the girl that does FIFO truck driving, to come in on her days off, so they can have time off.
Australia has lost the plot, the worlds most woke flucked up place on earth.
We just have to work out a system, where everyone does nothing and gets paid for it, then everyone will be happy.
WELLL that is until someone says I'm not happy that I don't get more than someone else, then you have a collapse ala the Eastern block.
Maybe the media needs to do some research on what they are promoting.


----------



## wayneL (15 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe wayneL is doing it for Pauline or Clive



As I've said many times here, I'm a classical liberal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism (ya know, what the Liberal party *used* to be)

Therefore, now, it will always be the LibDems. 

And yep, I'll be at the local polling station doing my bit next Saturday... Buckley's chance for a Reps seat (important to make a showing however), but every chance for the Senate.


----------



## basilio (16 May 2022)

Excellent story on Cathy McGowan on the ABC.

Cathy was one of the first Independents to take a government seat. She beat Sophie Mirabella in 2013, held the seat in 2016 *and then assisted a new independent to win it in 2019.*

She has developed a very effective process of listening to local people and encouraging quality independents to organise for a successful tilt against the Libs and Labour.  Grassroots democracy at work.









						'It's all about community and grassroots democracy': Could the rise of the independents change the outcome of the election?
					

When Cathy McGowan won the federal seat of Indi nearly a decade ago, no-one could have predicted her impact on this current election campaign. Now, she's seen as a "secret weapon" of the independents movement.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (16 May 2022)

Coalition's super for houses plan would further increase house prices.

Those of us who own houses should be happy, but it's not going to help home buyers.









						A super first home buyers policy? I wanted to scream, says Saul Eslake - Stockhead
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s latest-declared plan would allow first home buyers to dip into their super to spend on a home deposit.




					stockhead.com.au


----------



## IFocus (16 May 2022)

I haven't seen a specific list of positive  achievements for the last 9 years, lots of long negative ones and grand over aching claims of brilliance but to be honest, really the states have continually done the heavy lifting and that extends across party lines where as the Coalition federally have had some shockers giving $40 bil (debt) to profitable company's has to top the list.

Still it can be passed is it $200 bil of debt trying to  buy the election or have I got that wrong?


----------



## PZ99 (16 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Nah, he toppled himself.
> The election before he won with an increased majority and I and everyone I knew voted for him.
> I remember him saying when he won that he warned the party to not get carried away and then he brought out new labour laws to legally cut our wages and before I know it I am being asked to sign a contract giving away holiday leave, 4 weeks only if made redundant and a friend is told he now has to work weekends for no extra pay  or lose his job.
> 
> He lost his seat because everyone was angry at him. He had Australia at his feet and  then he attacked us. I had young kids and a big mortgage so just signed away my conditions for a tiny wage rise.  It was a stressful time.



Basically everything you've said there is the reason why I'll never vote for that party again.

Our taxes paid off all that Govt debt but instead of saying thankyou they stiffed us workers.

@sptrawler I think I better wait until next week before I let you know who John Kunkel is


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Coalition's super for houses plan would further increase house prices.
> 
> Those of us who own houses should be happy, but it's not going to help home buyers.
> 
> ...



That's the problem, there isn't much that will help home buyers, other than a housing collapse and that doesn't help those who have recently bought a house, they end up with negative equity.
It really is an awkward situation.


----------



## The Triangle (16 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Coalition's super for houses plan would further increase house prices.
> 
> Those of us who own houses should be happy, but it's not going to help home buyers.
> 
> ...



It's not right.  Increase the money available to purchase a limited supply of goods (homes)....  Economics 101.

More policy to help the wealthy and help the banks push up house prices and mortgage values.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Basically everything you've said there is the reason why I'll never vote for that party again.
> 
> Our taxes paid off all that Govt debt but instead of saying thankyou they stiffed us workers.
> 
> @sptrawler I think I better wait until next week before I let you know who John Kunkel is



The worker always gets stiffed, by both sides, because they are the engine room of the economy.


----------



## wayneL (16 May 2022)

Our whole economy is underpinned by two things, rising house prices and mining and is therefore one of the least complex (if not *the least complex) economies in the first and second worlds... And doesn't really measure that well against the third world either.

Policy failure on a monumental scale from both parties over a very long period of time.

So I can't see any government wanting to bring housing prices into check. If that happens it will be by accident and we will be in very dire economic straits indeed.

The order of the day will be to appear to try to help first home owners while at the same time insuring that housing prices keep getting inflated.

(Personal opinion)


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> It's not right.  Increase the money available to purchase a limited supply of goods (homes)....  Economics 101.
> 
> More policy to help the wealthy and help the banks push up house prices and mortgage values.



What's not right is people bidding up the price of houses, I don't know how you can stop them, other than force a limit on how much people can borrow. It is just a crazy ponzi loop over East IMO.
People who want a house want a crash, those who have a house want prices to go up, it is like a casino.
All over a little square of land with a pile of bricks on it, that some bloke who left school at 15 stacked up in a square, weird how it is held in such high reverence.


----------



## wayneL (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What's not right is people bidding up the price of houses, I don't know how you can stop them, other than force a limit on how much people can borrow. It is just a crazy ponzi loop over East IMO.
> People who want a house want a crash, those who have a house want prices to go up, it is like a casino.
> All over a little square of land with a pile of bricks on it, weird.



I have often used the "Frankinomics", but saw another term which is probably better to describe government economic policy... Ponzinomics.


----------



## PZ99 (16 May 2022)

Hehe... If you wanna help first home buyers without blowing out prices have a look at Labor's policies at the last election 

Starting with getting rid of that neg gearing yeh ?


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Hehe... If you wanna help first home buyers without blowing out prices have a look at Labor's policies at the last election
> 
> Starting with getting rid of that neg gearing yeh ?



As long as they do it across the board, doing it to one sector just stiffs the worker yet again.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's the problem, there isn't much that will help home buyers, other than a housing collapse and that doesn't help those who have recently bought a house, they end up with negative equity.
> *It really is an awkward situation.*




Yes it is, but I'll suggest one idea,

1. Federal , State and Local governments cooperate to build more well serviced but affordable home units that are within the reach of young couples to purchase. This obviously increases supply of dwellings.

2. As a couple's family grows and their income income increases they will likely want larger accommodation so they look around for a house.

3. Meanwhile retired people who don't want to maintain their house any more and want to downsize may find an apartment attractive.

4. The retired couple sells the house to a young family and they then buy an apartment.

5. Both get what they want.

So there is an upward path for the young, and a comfortable and secure place for retirees.

There would have to be some disincentive for speculators so that only genuine buyers are in the market (negative gearing has to go or be curtailed).


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes it is, but I'll suggest one idea,
> 
> 1. Federal , State and Local governments cooperate to build more well serviced but affordable home units that are within the reach of young couples to purchase. This obviously increases supply of dwellings.
> 
> ...



Yes it is a bit along the Singapore model and would work IMO, the problem is neither side of politics want to get into the housing market, it is easier just to either give stimulus money, or crash a section of the market.
The underlying issue IMO is, politicians are lazy and only want to deal with moving taxpayers money around, they don't want to be answerable and responsible for a department that actually supplies a direct service to the public, that style of politics has been well and truly buried, now it is all outsourced.
Lets privatise or corporatise everything so that the Govt is at arms length and the minister just has to say,"yes we will give more funding for that", it is so much easier than explaining why housing development is behind schedule.
Remember when Governments actually had public works departments, main roads departments and trucks, workers, yards etc.


----------



## IFocus (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Hehe... If you wanna help first home buyers without blowing out prices have a look at Labor's policies at the last election
> 
> Starting with getting rid of that neg gearing yeh ?





Yep as per Wayne's post neg gearing is just another thing that insures flow of capital into the wrong area of the economy


----------



## Ferret (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Hehe... If you wanna help first home buyers without blowing out prices have a look at Labor's policies at the last election
> 
> Starting with getting rid of that neg gearing yeh ?



Spot on.

Get rid of negative gearing on housing and/or cut the CGT tax discount to 25%.  A whole bunch of investor buyers move out of the housing market and housing prices drop.  Easy fix to the problem.

Unfortunately, as Labor found out at the last election, Aussies love their housing investments and these policies are toxic.  Maybe the electorate will eventually see we need to take this medicine to fix housing affordability. 

I would have voted for this at the last election, but I didn't like abolishing franking credits bundled into the package and I found Shorten obnoxious.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

Ferret said:


> Spot on.
> 
> Get rid of negative gearing on housing and/or cut the CGT tax discount to 25%.  A whole bunch of investor buyers move out of the housing market and housing prices drop.  Easy fix to the problem.
> 
> ...



I liked both the ideas, get rid off negative gearing and franking credits, what I didn't like was that both were only going to be taken of low income people, the rich were still going to get the franking credits and be able to negative gear new builds.
Just stop them both, or put a cap on them both, easy.
Also as you say Shorten was unelectable, Albo is a far better choice.


----------



## wayneL (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I liked both the ideas, get rid off negative gearing and franking credits, what I didn't like was that both were only going to be taken of low income people, the rich were still going to get the franking credits and be able to negative gear new builds.
> Just stop them both, or put a cap on them both, easy.
> Also as you say Shorten was unelectable, Albo is a far better choice.



Franking credits and negative gearing are in no way, shape, or form the same thing.

All franking credits do is to eliminate double taxation of company profits. Removal of these would be tantamount to restoring double taxation, unless company tax is accounted for in the individual's tax return.

Whereas negative gearing is special consideration for intentional trading losses, which are not available to those running any other sort of business.


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Franking credits and negative gearing are in no way, shape, or form the same thing.
> 
> All franking credits do is to eliminate double taxation of company profits. Removal of these would be tantamount to restoring double taxation, unless company tax is accounted for in the individual's tax return.
> 
> Whereas negative gearing is special consideration for intentional trading losses, which are not available to those running any other sort of business.



I don't disagree, just think that if you take either of them off one group, they should be taken off all groups.
To say that negative gearing is o.k on multiple new builds but not o.k on established homes, just distorts the market in favour of those who can afford to build multiple new investment properties, while destroying the value of home owners. Wouldn't  it just be fairer to cap the amount that can be claimed?
Same with franking credits, to take the franking credits off those who earn less than $18,000 or have investments in a SMSF, while allowing retail and industry super funds to retain them. Also someone who is a billionaire, to use them to offset their tax obligation, appears skewed reasoning.
As you say franking credits are there to stop double taxing, the first $18k of earnings is tax free, but with dividends they are given out after tax has been removed.
So those on less than $18k should either get that tax back, or get an untaxed dividend which would be higher, they would actually be paying tax at 30% on the first $18k of earnings otherwise.
 Again if there is a problem funding the franking credit system, either cap it or remove it, it has only been in existence from recent times.
I'm all for saving the budget, what I'm not for, is stiffing the average working person to carry it as usual, while the elites go on their merry way getting richer.


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## wayneL (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't disagree, just think that if you take either of them off one group, they should be taken off all groups.
> To say that negative gearing is o.k on multiple new builds but not o.k on established homes, just distorts the market in favour of those who can afford to build multiple new investment properties, while destroying the value of home owners. Wouldn't  it just be fairer to cap the amount that can be claimed?
> Same with franking credits, to take the franking credits off those who earn less than $18,000 or have investments in a SMSF, while allowing retail and industry super funds to retain them. Also someone who is a billionaire, to use them to offset their tax obligation, appears skewed reasoning.
> As you say franking credits are there to stop double taxing, the first $18k of earnings is tax free, but with dividends they are given out after tax has been removed.
> ...



I say just make the taxation regime consistent and reasonable. No trickery,  unbalanced incentives, or excessive bureaucratic expense to administer.

If we have an income tax, make it consistent, if we have a business tax, make it consistent, if we have a capital gains tax, make it consistent.

Franking credits at the base level seek to make taxation consistent, negative gearing seeks to make taxation inconsistent.

This is why we have an unbalanced economy geared towards property investment, rather than production.


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## The Triangle (16 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> I say just make the taxation regime consistent and reasonable. No trickery,  unbalanced incentives, or excessive bureaucratic expense to administer.
> 
> If we have an income tax, make it consistent, if we have a business tax, make it consistent, if we have a capital gains tax, make it consistent.
> 
> ...



And franking credits are effectively available to any and everyone with a share trading account. They are reasonably fair.  

Negative gearing credits are really only available to people who already own a home (suppose they could be renters themselves) and have enough money to own a second investment home - which is generally the wealthy earners.


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## moXJO (16 May 2022)

Negative gearing isn't why house prices are high. It ain't going to do a lot either if you get rid of it.


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Negative gearing isn't why house prices are high. It ain't going to do a lot either if you get rid of it.



That has been shown to be true and it has helped many grass roots people get some investments going, usually by purchasing a cheap rental and trying to pay it down then flip it to buy another better one etc.
If the only investment properties were new builds, who would supply the cheap rentals? Just a thought, but if most of the investment properties were new builds, would that force up rents as the investor tries to get a decent rate of return.


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## moXJO (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That has been shown to be true and it has helped many grass roots people get some investments going, usually by purchasing a cheap rental and trying to pay it down then flip it to buy another better one etc.
> If the only investment properties were new builds, who would supply the cheap rentals?



There's a lot of countries where house prices are expensive. None have negative gearing. It's a bit of a bunk argument. Tightening lending requirements would nuke the market.

 There's no need to anyway. Tides going out and the property clock is slowly ticking. Just let the market do its thing.


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## Eager (16 May 2022)

I think the simplest way to deal with franking credits is to make sure that they only get returned to taxpayers to offset any tax paid. I'd be surprised if that hasn't been discussed before (until recently, I hadn't visited these pages since well before the last fed election when this issue was hot). It would be to the detriment of my household, but why is it fair that my wife gets a tax refund around $2k per year, which I then re-invest for her, when her total income from dividends and other sources dosn't even come close to the tax free threshold? But, it has been allowed to continue, and will do so regardless of what happens on Saturday, so we'll continue to enjoy receiving it. Yes, it would be a bummer if we no longer enjoyed it, but it's not like we budget to receive it. Pensioners and the like who say that they rely on franking credits as part of their income strategy, to me, is a flawed business model. I remember when this issue was widely covered in the media before last election, an example was given about one old coot who would stand to lose (from memory) about $40k per year if franking credits were removed. What wasn't said in the (Murdoch) press and from Geoff Wilson was that for him to receive that amount in franking credits, based on an assumption that all his shares were fully franked and his average yield was 5% (reasonable at the time), he would be in possession of around $2m of shares. Cry. Me. A. River.

Negative gearing is a whole different ball game. With regular interest rate rises on the way for the next year or so, the dynamics will change and it will progressively become easier for property investors to lose money and secure a lucrative tax break, but also more lucrative for the government to do something about it. Hopefully they eventually do.

My 2c.


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> There's no need to anyway. Tides going out and the property clock is slowly ticking. Just let the market do its thing.



The issue seems to be very localised on the East coast, over here in the West, house prices are still reasonable. 
In the area I am, the unit over the back of mine just sold for $280k, I paid $290k for mine exactly the same building in 2011, after the GFC when prices crashed. 
So as I say the issue isn't Australia wide, people here seem more focused on holidays, 4x4 fully bombed dual cabs and toys, more than bidding up houses.  
Maybe here people think life is short enjoy it, more than those on the East coast, who knows.


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

Eager said:


> I think the simplest way to deal with franking credits is to make sure that they only get returned to taxpayers to offset any tax paid. I'd be surprised if that hasn't been discussed before (until recently, I hadn't visited these pages since well before the last fed election when this issue was hot). It would be to the detriment of my household, but why is it fair that my wife gets a tax refund around $2k per year, which I then re-invest for her, when her total income from dividends and other sources dosn't even come close to the tax free threshold?



I guess it is the same as if your wife worked a job and she earned $17,500, but each week the employer had removed tax of 30% to cover her expected liability, but when she did her tax she found they had taken $5,200 out. So she really only took home $12,300, by your reasoning that's fine because she is under the tax free threshold so it doesn't matter that she paid 30%.
 As the rules are currently, she would get the $5,200 as a tax refund, because any earnings under the $18k threshold is tax free so she shouldn't have paid it.

When the company gives your wife a dividend, they have paid 30% tax on it, if she is under the $18k tax free threshold why shouldn't she get it refunded? When someone who has hundreds of thousands of the same shares can reduce their tax by millions, because they received the same dividend and the same franking credit?

So if you have enough shares, that you get a big enough dividend that you have to pay tax, you can use the tax the company paid to reduce your tax bill. But if you don't have enough shares to have to make $18k of dividends, you lose the tax the company paid, sounds a bit weird to me sounds like double standards if your rich you get the 30% break, if your poor the government takes it off you.
Your reasoning might be sound, but i don't follow it, obviously a lot of other people thought the same as it has been dropped.


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## moXJO (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The issue seems to be very localised on the East coast, over here in the West, house prices are still reasonable.
> In the area I am, the unit over the back of mine just sold for $280k, I paid $290k for mine exactly the same building in 2011, after the GFC when prices crashed.
> So as I say the issue isn't Australia wide, people here seem more focused on holidays, 4x4 fully bombed dual cabs and toys, more than bidding up houses.
> Maybe here people think life is short enjoy it, more than those on the East coast, who knows.



There's no rentals either. So it's most likely a house shortage here. Perhaps all those new years of 1999 babies have finally hit legs and want out. 
Either way stock is short. 

But as of the last two weeks a lot of houses going on market. So the interest rates must have spooked a few.


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## wayneL (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I guess it is the same as if your wife worked a job and she earned $17,500, but each week the employer had removed tax of 30% to cover her expected liability, but when she did her tax she found they had taken $5,200 out. So she really only took home $12,300, by your reasoning that's fine because she is under the tax free threshold so it doesn't matter that she paid 30%.
> As the rules are currently, she would get the $5,200 as a tax refund, because any earnings under the $18k threshold is tax free so she shouldn't have paid it.
> 
> When the company gives your wife a dividend, they have paid 30% tax on it, if she is under the $18k tax free threshold why shouldn't she get it refunded? When someone who has hundreds of thousands of the same shares can reduce their tax by millions, because they received the same dividend and the same franking credit?
> ...



Note that this only applies to divs, not earnings (which are taxed at company rate).

Consistency... Look at total tax burden per earnings, from whatever source.


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## IFocus (16 May 2022)

Eager said:


> I think the simplest way to deal with franking credits is to make sure that they only get returned to taxpayers to offset any tax paid.* I'd be surprised if that hasn't been discussed before* (until recently, I hadn't visited these pages since well before the last fed election when this issue was hot). It would be to the detriment of my household, but why is it fair that my wife gets a tax refund around $2k per year, which I then re-invest for her, when her total income from dividends and other sources dosn't even come close to the tax free threshold? But, it has been allowed to continue, and will do so regardless of what happens on Saturday, so we'll continue to enjoy receiving it. Yes, it would be a bummer if we no longer enjoyed it, but it's not like we budget to receive it. Pensioners and the like who say that they rely on franking credits as part of their income strategy, to me, is a flawed business model. I remember when this issue was widely covered in the media before last election, an example was given about one old coot who would stand to lose (from memory) about $40k per year if franking credits were removed. What wasn't said in the (Murdoch) press and from Geoff Wilson was that for him to receive that amount in franking credits, based on an assumption that all his shares were fully franked and his average yield was 5% (reasonable at the time), he would be in possession of around $2m of shares. Cry. Me. A. River.
> 
> Negative gearing is a whole different ball game. With regular interest rate rises on the way for the next year or so, the dynamics will change and it will progressively become easier for property investors to lose money and secure a lucrative tax break, but also more lucrative for the government to do something about it. Hopefully they eventually do.
> 
> My 2c.





Yes its been argued endlessly, I completely agree with you and I would also be disadvantaged if franking credits were removed but you will be howled down by the pack.

However no one wants to talk about the drag on revenue ($12 bil and growing?) for the government and how to plug the hole. 

Over to you SP


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## PZ99 (16 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Negative gearing isn't why house prices are high. It ain't going to do a lot either if you get rid of it.



Well that's good then because getting rid of it won't crash the housing market despite all the hoo-haa + we can find something better to do with that $13b per year of taxpayers' money.

NZ got rid of it - I think Labor should grow a pair and follow suit.


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## Eager (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I guess it is the same as if your wife worked a job and she earned $17,500, but each week the employer had removed tax of 30% to cover her expected liability, but when she did her tax she found they had taken $5,200 out. So she really only took home $12,300, by your reasoning that's fine because she is under the tax free threshold so it doesn't matter that she paid 30%. As the rules are currently, she would get the $5,200 as a tax refund.



I know that your exapmple was just for demonstrative purposes, but it is a shocker. If she was working and had paid $5.2k tax  for $17.5k gross earnings, before hypothetically/unexpectedly not working and earning again for that FY, that extrapoplates to an expected weekly/annual salary of $3083/$160.3k!  Of course she would be entitled to a full tax refund that FY, for the simple reason that she had already paid the tax. What tax has SHE *already* paid on her dividends?


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Note that this only applies to divs, not earnings (which are taxed at company rate).
> 
> Consistency... Look at total tax burden per earnings, from whatever source.



Very true, but as @Eager said:

" It would be to the detriment of my household, but why is it fair that my wife gets a tax refund around $2k per year, which I then re-invest for her, when her total income from dividends and other sources dosn't even come close to the tax free threshold?"

That is fine when a person is in the situation of his wife, but what about the person who is in a similar position without the luxury of a husband and their total income income is less than the $18k threshold. Is it then fair on them also?


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

Eager said:


> What tax has SHE *already* paid on her dividends?



She has paid the same tax as the wealthy person, you are saying is entitled to use it, as an offset to reduce their tax. Why is it ok for someone to use the tax credit to reduce their tax, yet someone who doesn't earn enough to pay tax loses it.
Don't you see the irony, people say they care about those less fortunate, but then penalise them for not earning enough.Weird
Your using your own circumstances, to judge other people's situations, when really the principle should be applied consistently.
Or just take it off everyone.


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## Eager (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Why is it ok for someone to use the tax credit to reduce their tax, yet someone who doesn't earn enough to pay tax loses it.



Because they didn't pay any tax to start with!!!


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

Eager said:


> Because they didn't pay any tax to start with!!!



The dividend they received had 30% tax paid on it, if the company paid the dividend pre tax, they would get 30% more dividend.
Then the high income earner would pay tax on the dividend at their marginal rate, the person on less than $18k would get to keep the whole larger dividend, that would be fairer.
What part of that can't you understand.


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## PZ99 (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Very true, but as @Eager said:
> 
> " It would be to the detriment of my household, but why is it fair that my wife gets a tax refund around $2k per year, which I then re-invest for her, when her total income from dividends and other sources dosn't even come close to the tax free threshold?"
> 
> That is fine when a person is in the situation of his wife, but what about the person who is in a similar position without the luxury of a husband and their total income income is less than the $18k threshold. Is it then fair on them also?



Your last sentence is why I changed my mind on the policy and decided to leave it as is.... It's a double edged sword though. If the refund is applied then that parcel of company tax isn't paid.


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Your last sentence is why I changed my mind on the policy and decided to leave it as is.... It's a double edged sword though. If the refund is applied then that parcel of company tax isn't paid.



That's true and like I said if Labor was serious about franking credits, they would have just applied it like I said, companies pay the dividend in pre tax dollars.
But that then becomes a bigger problem for the ATO collecting the tax.
It was just a nasty piece of legislation to force SMSF into industry funds, thankfully Albo seems to realise the backlash from the rank and file was huge.
Take it off everyone, or apply it as it is currently IMO.


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## Eager (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The dividend they received had 30% tax paid on it, if the company paid the dividend pre tax, they would get 30% more.
> Then the high income earner would pay tax on the dividend at their marginal rate, the person on less than $18k would get to keep the whole dividend, that would be fairer.
> but no people would rather pull crap out to justify stupid reasoning and why even Labor tossed it.



At the end of the day, no-one will ever be able to justify to me why non-taxpayers should get a tax refund for tax that they didn't pay to begin with. How is it a 'refund'?

I'll accept the extra and unneccessary $2k that this household receives every year, and pretend that I don't care how that money could have been better spent to look after those who desperately need it, and think, how good is middle and upper class welfare.

_"but no people would rather pull crap out to justify stupid reasoning and why even Labor tossed it." _You have described the opponents of the proposal to remove franking credits to a tee. The populist/sensationalist/fear stoking media got on board and it was all over.


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

Eager said:


> At the end of the day, no-one will ever be able to justify to me why non-taxpayers should get a tax refund for tax that they didn't pay to begin with. How is it a 'refund'?
> 
> I'll accept the extra and unneccessary $2k that this household receives every year, and pretend that I don't care how that money could have been better spent to look after those who desperately need it, and think, how good is middle and upper class welfare.
> 
> _"but no people would rather pull crap out to justify stupid reasoning and why even Labor tossed it." _You have described the opponents of the proposal to remove franking credits to a tee. The populist/sensationalist/fear stoking media got on board and it was all over.



If you can't see the logics, you may as well get rid of the tax free threshold completely and just tax every dollar, that would make it easier.
The proposal was nonsense, even by your statement.

" no-one will ever be able to justify to me why non-taxpayers should get a tax refund for tax that they didn't pay to begin with. How is it a 'refund'?


As I said if the dividend was paid pre tax, the dividend would be larger and those earning under $18k would not have to pay tax on it, which is exactly what is happening now.
Just because you can't get your head around it, doesn't make it incorrect.
That is why we have a tax free threshold and also super in the pension phase is tax free, they can change that, but currently that is how it works.

Your quote:
_I'll accept the extra and unneccessary $2k that this household receives every year, and pretend that I don't care how that money could have been better spent to look after those who desperately need it, and think, how good is middle and upper class welfare._

You could always donate it to a worthy cause, rather than smuggly use it as a badge of honour, to pretend you care.


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## PZ99 (16 May 2022)

Here's a curly one... if the dividend is paid pre tax and becomes say... 30% larger does that mean the fall in the share price is 30% greater when it goes ex-dividend ? 

Hmm...


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Here's a curly one... if the dividend is paid pre tax and becomes say... 30% larger does that mean the fall in the share price is 30% greater when it goes ex-dividend ?
> 
> Hmm...



If the company pays the 30% on the dividend to the ATO, or to the shareholder, wouldn't it be the same effect on the bottom line?
The big difference would be the people who currently reduce their taxable income by the 30% offset, would have to pay tax on their dividend at their marginal rate, which could be 15% higher. But that isn't seen as middle and upper class welfare.









						Twiggy's biggest pay day: Fortescue to pay record dividend
					

Iron ore miner Fortescue is tipped to pay record dividends on Monday, with total distributions to Andrew Forrest for the year expected to nudge $1.9 billion.




					www.afr.com
				



From the article:
If those forecasts are correct, Dr Forrest's various entities will receive just over $1 billion of fully franked final dividends.

When combined with the 76¢ per share interim dividend announced in February, the Forrests will have received close to $1.86 billion of fully franked dividends from Fortescue in just one year.


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## PZ99 (16 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If the company pays the 30% on the dividend to the ATO, or to the shareholder, wouldn't it be the same effect on the bottom line?



Well not as far as I understand and I'm probably making a fool of myself here with this but.... as it is now a bank pays $1 dividend and the share price drops $1 when it goes XD. 

However an additional 30 cents is paid to the ATO and the low income earner is refunded that 30 cents so their overall pay is $1.30. No ?

But if we go with your suggestion the bank just pays the $1.30 as a divvy and therefore the SP drops $1.30 instead of just the $1.00

PZ would like to know if this is viable


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## moXJO (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Well that's good then because getting rid of it won't crash the housing market despite all the hoo-haa + we can find something better to do with that $13b per year of taxpayers' money.
> 
> NZ got rid of it - I think Labor should grow a pair and follow suit.



Meh. I don't really care. But at some point I might.
There was an nft game that had multiple streams of income that you could make. At the high point of the good times you could pull some serious real world dollars.

However every one started whinging and one by one those revenue streams got cut off. All the way to the point that you couldn't make any money. 

Don't cut off potential revenue streams. 

We have public sector wanks wasting money hand over fist. So no, let's not get rid of it.


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## PZ99 (16 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Meh. I don't really care. But at some point I might.
> There was an nft game that had multiple streams of income that you could make. At the high point of the good times you could pull some serious real world dollars.
> 
> However every one started whinging and one by one those revenue streams got cut off. All the way to the point that you couldn't make any money.
> ...



Heh heh... I understand a lot of those public sector wanks are MP's who own quite a few houses. Dutton, Albo et-al 

At the end of the day the reason we can't balance a budget is because there are too many middle class welfare recipients who will be the first to complain when their taxes go up to pay for all this evil socialism 

No I don't really care either. Labor could've manned up but they didn't so budget surpluses are gone forever and we'll just keep kicking them cans... or are they buckets now ? LOL


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## sptrawler (16 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Well not as far as I understand and I'm probably making a fool of myself here with this but.... as it is now a bank pays $1 dividend and the share price drops $1 when it goes XD.
> 
> However an additional 30 cents is paid to the ATO and the low income earner is refunded that 30 cents so their overall pay is $1.30. No ?
> 
> ...



Yes, I don't know, not all shares drop by the same amount as the divvy, maybe the share price would drop more I really don't know.
But on the books $1 div + 30c tax = $1.30 to the bottom line both ways, I would think.
Maybe the market would respond differently, but there would be a huge amount more income tax collected that way. 
The same as the way that retail and Industry funds were going to keep the franking credits, but SMSF's were going to lose them, if they were after saving money, they would have saved billions more taking the credits off the retail and industry funds as well.
I'm all for getting rid of it, as long as it is across the board.


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## Smurf1976 (17 May 2022)

Eager said:


> At the end of the day, no-one will ever be able to justify to me why non-taxpayers should get a tax refund for tax that they didn't pay to begin with. How is it a 'refund'?



On one hand I see the point.

On the other there's the "me too" aspect.

Someone could work for only 3 months of the financial year and as a result of that end up with a great big tax refund of the Income Tax their employer handed to the ATO.

For that matter, even those who are in constant full time work often find ways to get tax refunds despite having paid no tax directly themselves. It's common to the point that many, younger people in particular, often incorrectly think "Tax Return" means a return of tax to the taxpayer since they've never been in a situation of not receiving at least something back.

The answer of course is that with both wages and dividends, whilst the business physically hands the money to the ATO it's not actually their money they're handing over, it's the employee's or the shareholder's money. Once you realise that point, the rest then becomes entirely consistent.

If we're going to deny refunds to one group on the basis that they didn't make the transaction then that should, in the interests of consistency, apply to everyone.

It's the targeting of one specific group and a fairly limited one at that which many objected to. If they'd gone after everyone with the same approach, there'd have been little argument against it beyond the obvious that it hits those who've fallen on hard times, with a decrease in income, most heavily which is of course a moral issue.

Meanwhile those who spent the lot and didn't save for the proverbial rainy day not only aren't paying a cent in tax on investments, since they don't have any, but they also received a handout the moment they lost income with the pandemic. That cost a hell of a lot more than just applying normal tax rates to investors with a refund where appropriate.


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## Smurf1976 (17 May 2022)

Eager said:


> Because they didn't pay any tax to start with!!!



A franking credit by definition is a credit for tax paid.

You invest in XYZ and they hand 30% of _your_ dividends to the ATO. That's your money being handed over, it didn't come from government.

Eg you receive a $1000 dividend. $700 is deposited into your account and $300 is sent to the ATO. You are then required to declare the full $1000 as income since it is. $1000 income with $300 tax paid.

Exact same arrangement as if you'd worked for an employer who deducted tax from your income. Your income is the full amount, including the tax deducted, since that's your money not the employer's.

In both cases the exact same tax rates apply under present arrangements. Exactly the same down to the cent and in both cases you'll receive a refund if the amount of tax paid exceeds the amount required to be paid under the exact same Income Tax scale.

Therein lies the question - why, exactly, would we apply higher tax to investing? Do we not want people to invest and avoid relying on welfare when their income stops? It's a lot cheaper to have someone paying less tax, which is still a positive contribution just a smaller one, than to have them on the dole or pension after all which is a very real, direct cost to government.

 All that said, I'd be less opposed to taxation if the money were at least spent wisely. The amount of money thrown around in recent times, and the inefficiency with which it has been spent, is nothing short of an insult to everyone paying tax regardless of the amount. 

Take a look at your own electorate wherever that is and the list of federally funded projects. Two questions flow from that:

1. How much of this stuff is really necessary?

2. Even if it is necessary, why on earth does it cost the price of a house just to build a toilet block? Etc.

Certainly from what I've observed, I'm paying tax in order to knockdown and rebuild facilities that I'd never consider rebuilding if they were my own property since they were more than adequate for the purpose they serve. And even if I did rebuild them, well I could come up with a less architectural design and save half the cost for a still perfectly adequate facility.

If we're aiming to fix the budget, something I agree with in principle, then there's a hell of a lot of spending that could be scrapped before we need to take money away from individuals.


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## SirRumpole (17 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Heh heh... I understand a lot of those public sector wanks are MP's who own quite a few houses. Dutton, Albo et-al
> 
> At the end of the day the reason we can't balance a budget is because there are too many middle class welfare recipients who will be the first to complain when their taxes go up to pay for all this evil socialism
> 
> No I don't really care either. Labor could've manned up but they didn't so budget surpluses are gone forever and we'll just keep kicking them cans... or are they buckets now ? LOL




Negative gearing should only apply to one dwelling per taxpayer.

That lets the Mums & Dads etc have their retirement property but stops those trying to make a business out of it at the taxpayers expense.


----------



## PZ99 (17 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Negative gearing should only apply to one dwelling per taxpayer.
> 
> That lets the Mums & Dads etc have their retirement property but stops those trying to make a business out of it at the taxpayers expense.



That's a respectable viewpoint but I still think it should be phased out completely because it has created a sense of entitlement that's full of unintended consequences such as encouraging investors to take on massive debt that they can't service unless they claim a form of welfare from the taxpayer


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> That's a respectable viewpoint but I still think it should be phased out completely because it has created a sense of entitlement that's full of unintended consequences such as encouraging investors to take on massive debt that they can't service unless they claim a form of welfare from the taxpayer



Spot on an investment should be able to stand up without a tax break. Nevative gearing was intended to help establish a business, to offset the losses until it made a profit, the cost of a house in Sydney it will never be positive geared, so it is a speculative purchase which shouldnt be allowed as a negative geared proposition.
It should be seen as speculative and loses shluld only be allowed to be  arried forward and used to offset against any capital gain IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on an investment should be able to stand up without a tax break. Nevative gearing was intended to help establish a business, to offset the losses until it made a profit, the cost of a house in Sydney it will never be positive geared, so it is a speculative purchase which shouldnt be allowed as a negative geared proposition.
> It should be seen as speculative and loses shluld only be allowed to be  arried forward and used to offset against any capital gain IMO.




Agreed in principle, I was speaking more politically as Labor tried to ditch it completely but couldn't get it through so you have to go with the path of least resistance.

The alternative is to lie at the election campaign then ditch it and hope the electorate forgives you.


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed in principle, I was speaking more politically as Labor tried to ditch it completely but couldn't get it through so you have to go with the path of least resistance.
> 
> The alternative is to lie at the election campaign then ditch it and hope the electorate forgives you.



The problem with Labors plan was they were only ditching it on established homes, if they were going to ditch it on all property it would have been acceptable, as it was the wealthy would have been the only ones to benefit.
Your idea of capping it is much more equitable, but it would put more pressure on Govt to provide social housing, negative gearing is really just a perk for the private sector to provide social housing instead of the Govt.
As usual though people will find ways to use the system to maximise returns, so you have people negative gearing million dollar houses and claiming a refund on the rent shortfall, so in reality it just becomes a low holding cost loan, while the person waits for a capital appreciation.
That really isnt what it was designed for.
Well that's my opinion, right or wrong.


----------



## rederob (17 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Crisis?
> 
> I mean a major and prolonged one. Economic most likely but if not that then something else drastic enough that the population demands a strong leader who makes things happen.



So covid wasn't a crisis?
It has been going over 2 years now, which I thought might be long enough to be called "prolonged." 
And if you think it hasn't impacted politics then you only need to look at State election outcomes in the intervening period.


----------



## Eager (17 May 2022)

@Smurf  Thank you for your clear explanation re franking credits, which actually made sense to me. I think it's obvious now that I was talking about what I saw as an unfair advantage to passive income earners, who happen to be more likely to fall in the zero tax bracket, compared to people who do real work and see an in-your-face fortnightly tax grab on their payslips.

I understand now, tax is tax is tax.

Having said that, I still don't feel any sympathy for old mate crying poor if he lost his franking credits, considering his multi-million dollar share portfolio.


----------



## basilio (17 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> 1. How much of this stuff is really necessary?
> 
> 2. Even if it is necessary, why on earth does it cost the price of a house just to build a toilet block? Etc.
> 
> Certainly from what I've observed, I'm paying tax in order to knockdown and rebuild facilities that I'd never consider rebuilding if they were my own property since they were more than adequate for the purpose they serve. And even if I did rebuild them, well I could come up with a less architectural design and save half the cost for a still perfectly adequate facility.




I think this is a very critical point.

As far as I can see much of Federal spending has become gravy train for big business and political spivs. Yes we need to have quality community assets.
Yes we want to have decent aged care. 

Yes we should have excellent support to get people retrained and into jobs.

But seriously all my direct and indirect experience says these  responsibilities have just become a giant gravy train for those smart enough and politically connected.

The COVID outbreak was a classic example of businesses who basically rorted the tax payers in providing health services.









						The company that made millions from COVID contracts
					

COVID-19 has left a huge toll on us all, and taken the lives of more than 7,000 Australians. But there are some companies that have simply thrived because of it, particularly those charged by the federal government with providing goods and services like masks and other protective equipment. So...



					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2022)

Eager said:


> @Smurf  Thank you for your clear explanation re franking credits, which actually made sense to me. I think it's obvious now that I was talking about what I saw as an unfair advantage to passive income earners, who happen to be more likely to fall in the zero tax bracket, compared to people who do real work and see an in-your-face fortnightly tax grab on their payslips.
> 
> I understand now, tax is tax is tax.
> 
> Having said that, I still don't feel any sympathy for old mate crying poor if he lost his franking credits, considering his multi-million dollar share portfolio.



Agree 100%, as long as old mate and the industry and retail super funds are treated the same, or else all old mate has to do is move his money from his SMSF into an industry fund then he gets his franking credits back.
Which then has actually solved nothing.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 May 2022)

rederob said:


> So covid wasn't a crisis?
> It has been going over 2 years now, which I thought might be long enough to be called "prolonged."
> And if you think it hasn't impacted politics then you only need to look at State election outcomes in the intervening period.



It was a crisis but an external and suppressed one.

The cause was well known to have been not of the Australian Government's doing, economic effects were very heavily suppressed with special payments of all kinds and even if someone did feel inclined to engage in public protest, doing so was at odds with the nature of the crisis being a pandemic.

Now replace that with anything which the Australian Government either has caused or is widely perceived to have caused and which cannot be contained or offset. An economic crisis, breakdown of international relations to the point it brings consequence to ordinary people, banking crisis or whatever. That'll bring an extremely different response almost certainly.


----------



## rederob (17 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It was a crisis but an external and suppressed one.



Not in my world!  Family members suffered financial losses in excess of $20k relating to travel plans, and I ended up in hospital emergency.


Smurf1976 said:


> The cause was well known to have been not of the Australian Government's doing, economic effects were very heavily suppressed with special payments of all kinds and even if someone did feel inclined to engage in public protest, doing so was at odds with the nature of the crisis being a pandemic.



How is that relevant?  It was either a crisis, or it was not!
It massively affected employment and businesses, to the point that many closed and have never reopened.
It led to the most severe lockdowns ever experienced in most States/Territories and divided households and communities on the scientific issue of vaccinations, and individual rights.
It led to skill shortages that remain to this day, and supply chain concerns that also have not been fully resolved.


Smurf1976 said:


> Now replace that with anything which the Australian Government either has caused or is widely perceived to have caused and which cannot be contained or offset.



Again, totally irrelevant. 
The government ran up record debt because it was dealing with a pandemic, the likes of of which have never been experienced in a century.


Smurf1976 said:


> An economic crisis, breakdown of international relations to the point it brings consequence to ordinary people, banking crisis or whatever.



Really?
Our nation's international border was closed for almost 2 years, while often spontaneous State/Territory border closures caused transport and holiday delays and disruptions never previously experienced! 
You cannot deny the record debt that occurred, and the blame game that the government indulged in, to the point our nation's relationship with our principal trading partner is at its lowest ebb and still declining.  We exploited China hate to a level where it's ok that we support military incursions in the South China Sea on the basis of "freedom of navigation", but declare a *Chinese ship *outside continental waters as a "spy ship."


Smurf1976 said:


> That'll bring an extremely different response almost certainly.



So you are saying the government's dealing with this pandemic - which has not gone away and is causing more deaths nowadays than earlier - didn't elicit a response that was any different to previously?
When did we ever need a JobKeeper or JobSeeker response to an issue, or instigate border closures and repressive Health Act measures to control the movement of people?
When did we last run up a similar level of *debt *to counteract a major issue - aka "crisis"?





My personal view is that Morrison's handling of the pandemic has left him much worse off as a leader, and can be contrasted with the efforts of McGowan and several other State Premiers who experienced record levels of public support for their efforts.
Compare that with what Rudd did as a response to the GFC and the acclaim Australia received, aside from the plaudits of most economists and Keating's world best Treasurer badge.


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

rederob said:


> Not in my world!  Family members suffered financial losses in excess of $20k relating to travel plans, and I ended up in hospital emergency.
> 
> How is that relevant?  It was either a crisis, or it was not!
> It massively affected employment and businesses, to the point that many closed and have never reopened.
> ...



I haven't got the time, and I doubt many do, to fisk this response.

But let's just say that my eyeball muscles are becoming fatigued from rolling.

RAT neg, so I'm going to the pub for a few pints.

It's happy hour after 6 p.m. at the Woodbridge hotel, $6 pints of Guinness and all the Irish folk will be jammin' with their instruments and singing ditties.

I'll be the only bloke with an Australian accent, come and say g'day.


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's happy hour after 6 p.m. at the Woodbridge hotel, $6 pints of Guinness and all the Irish folk will be jammin' with their instruments and singing ditties.



London to a brick this will be played


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

This is obviously a bit edited, but albo is showing even more cowardice than scomo.

I will be no longer surprised if the Liberal heathen get up. Previous comments still apply, don't care so long as there is a reasonable crossbench to "keep the bastards honest".


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 May 2022)

rederob said:


> Not in my world! Family members suffered financial losses in excess of $20k relating to travel plans, and I ended up in hospital emergency.



Acknowledged that individuals have suffered and sorry to hear of your hospitalisation. Hope you're OK now....   

Personally well yes it did have some impacts no denying that. Stopped me doing x, y and z. More seriously, a member of my family passed away from unrelated causes and the pandemic did prevent me visiting them in their final hours. That's an impact I won't forget.

That said though well just two years after it started it was effectively over and whilst individuals 
certainly have scars, for society overall life looks pretty normal and most have gotten through. Official unemployment's at 4% (yes I know the number's cooked but it always has been to some extent), the stock market has bounced back and so on. Crucially from a political perspective, the pandemic is no longer the focus - just two years after it started and it's not even dominating the news anymore.

It's not comparable to the "1991" recession that was a solid 6 or so years until real world improvement was apparent to ordinary people and with the key political focus being firmly economic for the next decade.



rederob said:


> How is that relevant? It was either a crisis, or it was not!




Depending on which version you accept, the pandemic was either a natural occurrence or was due to the actions of the Chinese government. I'm not arguing which is the truth, only noting that those are the two versions of events.

Point being it wasn't an issue that the Australian Government could be blamed for having caused. An inadequate response perhaps yes but the public didn't see it as the underlying cause as such.

Versus (hypothetically) if one of the big banks were to collapse, interest rates surge or if we get unemployment over 10%. Government either is to blame, or will be perceived as to blame, and will pay a high price politically should something like that occur.

The next government's been handed a few grenades with the pin already pulled in my view:

Interest rates are one. Politicians don't set them but in the minds of many it's a matter for government.

Housing market is another. 

Inflation and living costs are another.

Budget deficit another.

Petrol excise in particular is a poison pill politically since it's the ultimately symbolic consumer price. Send a TV camera crew out to get some stock footage of inflation and they'll come back with video of a petrol pump with the counter ticking over that's a given. Can't get more symbolic than that. For Labor in particular that's a problem if they win. Put the excise back up and I've no doubt whatsoever that in 2025 we'll hear plenty about "Labor doubled petrol".


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Acknowledged that individuals have suffered and sorry to hear of your hospitalisation. Hope you're OK now....
> 
> Personally well yes it did have some impacts no denying that. Stopped me doing x, y and z. More seriously, a member of my family passed away from unrelated causes and the pandemic did prevent me visiting them in their final hours. That's an impact I won't forget.
> 
> ...




Power prices and the future of the industry is a big one for me.

I can't see that the Coalition has anything resembling a plan for the orderly transition to renewables while keeping prices down and while Labor may not do any better at least they deserve the chance to try imho.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Power prices and the future of the industry is a big one for me.



I sort-of implied that one in the bit about living costs. Didn't want to be focusing only on one issue....   

But yes, if we look at the past 24 hours for the NEM then the average price was $399.35 per MWh.

Putting that into perspective, well even $100 would be getting a bit high. Almost $400 is off the charts as a daily figure. 

Past 7 days it's a bit better but not greatly. $310.73 is still far too high indeed at that price wholesale is higher than retail which is completely unsustainable.

Same with gas, we're now seeing spot prices stuck well into the 30's $ per GJ versus $6 - $8 last year so a huge price jump there. 

The real impact though isn't household bills but on general inflation. Households use 22.8% of electricity nationally and 10.6% of the gas (Australian Government statistics in both cases). Business using the rest is going to be hiking the price of practically everything in order to cover the costs. Either that or what's left of manufacturing just goes offshore.

Oil's another since whilst consumers do buy petrol, a pretty substantial portion of total consumption is for business use of some sort be it farming, construction machinery, trucks, rail, shipping, industrial furnaces, aircraft, remote power generation, chemicals or whatever. Plus of course many businesses do have a car fleet.

So quite an impact with all this and that's just the economics. We're really up the creek if the diesel stops turning up from overseas or the lights go out.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I sort-of implied that one in the bit about living costs. Didn't want to be focusing only on one issue....
> 
> But yes, if we look at the past 24 hours for the NEM then the average price was $399.35 per MWh.
> 
> ...




Very few politicians seem to be advocating a reservation policy for coal , oil and gas , but that's one thing we need in the short term at least to smooth out the fluctuations in prices of those commodities.


----------



## rederob (18 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's not comparable to the "1991" recession that was a solid 6 or so years until real world improvement was apparent to ordinary people and with the key political focus being firmly economic for the next decade.



Again, not really the issue as it's about the government's response to a crisis.  What exactly occurred, ie., what did we do back then that was so different?


Smurf1976 said:


> Point being it wasn't an issue that the Australian Government could be blamed for having caused. An inadequate response perhaps yes but the public didn't see it as the underlying cause as such.



But this is about the *response *to a crisis as distinct from its cause or nature.

In my lifetime I cannot think of more measures from government at both levels that were as fiscally damaging, socially disruptive, and closed international and domestic borders. 

Good leadership in a crisis typically ensures a good ballot box outcome, as McGowan discovered.
As I said previously, contrast that with Morrison who created division between the feds and States, and could not get National Cabinet to work effectively.  We saw various Premiers and Health Ministers spout "expert health advice" that was inconsistent and confusing.  And we also had an exceptionally poor federal messaging program.  Morrison had years of opportunity to bring the nation together and get State/Territory leaders on the same page.  But he stuffed that up, just as he has stuffed up his response to so many critical matters such as bushfires, quarantine arrangements, energy security and climate change. 
A defining event of Morrison's present term was the *Ruby Princess* fiasco.  To many it set the tone for Morrison's subsequent actions on most matters.  Central to that is to first dismiss a matter and hope it goes away.  Failing that, blame someone or something else.  And if that doesn't work, then pretend it was always under control, as per the recent Solomon Islands incident. 
Bolted on voters will be as blind as Putin's followers.  But there is a polled majority that has seen through his deceptions and incompetence and are likely to vote him out of office.


----------



## Knobby22 (18 May 2022)

If the Libs get up it will be due to their genius. The three prongs:

1. 50K for first home buyers, that's anyone who hasn't bought a house including 40 year olds who thought they had missed the boat. Easy to understand and its from Super. Money today instead of in the future, easy sell. Labors scheme is complex and convoluted and almost no one understands it.

2. Help for Baby Boomers/Gen x. They can sell their family home and get a big tax break to move to something more reasonable and do it at a younger age. Show me the money. As Keating said "I always back self interest".

3. Morrison is really contrite. I know I shouldn't have had that holiday and sure I haven't ben perfect but I will try harder. (Gee he seems genuine lets give him another chance).

Genius.
(Is it Morrisons genius? He was a marketing guy.)


----------



## PZ99 (18 May 2022)

Genius vs dunce.... for me that's how it's panning out. Hung Parliament  

Polling practically the same now as in 2019.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> If the Libs get up it will be due to their genius. The three prongs:
> 
> 1. 50K for first home buyers, that's anyone who hasn't bought a house including 40 year olds who thought they had missed the boat. Easy to understand and its from Super. Money today instead of in the future, easy sell. Labors scheme is complex and convoluted and almost no one understands it.
> 
> ...




So the Libs are going to cut the public service, after calling them 'heroes' during the pandemic.

Less doctors, nurses and teachers to carry the burden of future pandemics which there will be, it's not over yet.

Good scare tactic territory for Labor.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> If the Libs get up it will be due to their genius. The three prongs:



You may be right, it still will mean we would tread water for another 3 years, while the media and Morrison continue their petty fights.


Knobby22 said:


> 1. 50K for first home buyers, that's anyone who hasn't bought a house including 40 year olds who thought they had missed the boat. Easy to understand and its from Super. Money today instead of in the future, easy sell. Labors scheme is complex and convoluted and almost no one understands it.



That is very much like the Singapore model, where the younger generation can use a part of their super to purchase an appartment, the only difference is the Govt there own the properties. Which is a major difference IMO.
But owning a house, or even paying for one rather than paying rent is better for young people than saving money for when they turn 67 years old.
Firstly they might not live to 67 and secondly who is to say when they do get there they can remove the money to buy a house, the rules can and will change. But owning your own house is always going to save you money, as you always need shelter.



Knobby22 said:


> 2. Help for Baby Boomers/Gen x. They can sell their family home and get a big tax break to move to something more reasonable and do it at a younger age. Show me the money. As Keating said "I always back self interest".



That should take some of the boomers off the pension, rather than being on the pension and sitting in the multi million dollar McMansion. So it probably is a positive. 
I would rather they used the carrot and the stick, rather than just the carrot, they should include the family home in the pension asset test. Just my opinion.



Knobby22 said:


> 3. Morrison is really contrite. I know I shouldn't have had that holiday and sure I haven't ben perfect but I will try harder. (Gee he seems genuine lets give him another chance).



IMO Morrison is like most people of strong beliefs, obnoxious, self opinionated, arrogant and have a very unattractive personality.
But he is a quick thinker and obviously intelligent, he would make a boss that not many like working for.


Knobby22 said:


> Genius.
> (Is it Morrisons genius? He was a marketing guy.)



Time will tell.


----------



## IFocus (18 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> If the Libs get up it will be due to their genius. The three prongs:
> 
> 1. 50K for first home buyers, that's anyone who hasn't bought a house including 40 year olds who thought they had missed the boat. Easy to understand and its from Super. Money today instead of in the future, easy sell. Labors scheme is complex and convoluted and almost no one understands it.
> 
> ...





By far and away Morrison is the best political election campaigner / spruiker / sound bite giver / truthful answer dodger  and people buy it.

Albanese is not even in the same room, to think a government as bad as Morrisons is even in the race is testament to Morrisons skills and Albanese's blandness which would be fine if Morrison actually had a grand vision other than him being PM. 

Still if Morison gets up I think it will damage the Libs longer term he wont change and next election people will be waiting with baseball bats arla Queensland style IMHO.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> By far and away Morrison is the best political election campaigner / spruiker / sound bite giver / truthful answer dodger  and people buy it.
> 
> Albanese is not even in the same room, to think a government as bad as Morrisons is even in the race is testament to Morrisons skills and Albanese's blandness which would be fine if Morrison actually had a grand vision other than him being PM.
> 
> Still if Morison gets up I think it will damage the Libs longer term he wont change and next election people will be waiting with baseball bats arla Queensland style IMHO.



Agree with you completely, I think that a lot of the problem is, Morrison copping constant criticism keeps people thinking on the issues and how they have been handled.
Which in turn gives people a lot of time to reflect on the issues, then people gradually process what was originally an emotional reaction to a more measured and thoughtful way of looking at the issue.
IMO the media constantly hammering away, would have had the effect of polarising the electorate, which way it has polarised the electorate will show on election day.
But one thing for sure IMO, the media has been the make or break of Scomo, as I said it would be in the early stages of his tenure.
The media bashing of Scomo has been relentless, but sometimes that can drive an opposing outcome, to what they wish for.
6 million early voters already, tells us that people have already made up their minds in huge numbers, whether the media was successful or blew their feet off remains to be seen. Obviously the silent majority have made their mind up already.
But @IFocus , I do love hating the media and I think they have actually helped him more than hurt him, the general public was over the coalition last election, Labor didn't need the media to help them the coalition would have been gone anyway
Just dumb ar$e media.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> You may be right, it still will mean we would tread water for another 3 years, while the media and Morrison continue their petty fights.
> 
> *That is very much like the Singapore model, where the younger generation can use a part of their super to purchase an appartment, the only difference is the Govt there own the properties. Which is a major difference IMO.
> But owning a house, or even paying for one rather than paying rent is better for young people than saving money for when they turn 67 years old.
> ...




The policy sounds a fraud to me. It doesn't add to the supply and therefore pushes prices up, making houses even more unaffordable.

Anyone under 40 won't have the super balance required anyway, those over 40 have probably already got one or will find the price of their prospective house has gone up by about $40k.

The number of people it will actually benefit is extremely small, but it sounds attractive to people who don't bother doing the numbers. 









						Read this before using your super to buy a house
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison described the controversial policy as a game-changer, but financial advisers and economists aren’t so sure.




					www.afr.com


----------



## wayneL (18 May 2022)

Perhaps with the failure of interventionist housing policies over decades, we might give the Austrians a go?


----------



## Knobby22 (18 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Perhaps with the failure of interventionist housing policies over decades, we might give the Austrians a go




No hope unfortunately,  we can't have a policy that could cause lower house prices and hurt investors.

Anyway , we have room to move, only the second highest housing market on earth, we need to take no. 1 spot. I think the way Hong Kong is going we can get there. Pretty good effort considering how much empty land there is in Australia.

*The Most Expensive Housing Markets Globally By “Median Multiple” (2022)*

Hong Kong, China – 23.2.
Sydney, Australia – 15.3.
Vancouver, Canada – 13.3.









						Sydney Is Now The World's 2nd Most Expensive Housing Market
					

New data confirms both Sydney and Melbourne are the second and fifth most expensive housing markets in the entire world by "median multiple."




					www.bosshunting.com.au
				




If only I was rich enough to afford this $20 million trophy home sold recently.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> No hope unfortunately,  we can't have a policy that could cause lower house prices and hurt investors.
> 
> Anyway , we have room to move, only the second highest housing market on earth, we need to take no. 1 spot. I think the way Hong Kong is going we can get there. Pretty good effort considering how much empty land there is in Australia.
> 
> ...



Spot on Knobby, Sydney hose prices are bizarre, why does everyone want to live there and are prepared to pay anything just to do it?

It has to be the fact that they think they will be able to flip it for a profit, so it is seen a sure thing, smells of a ponzi to me, sooner or later the music has to stop and someone will be left carrying the parcel. 

People aren't being forced into buying and bidding up these stupid prices, what the hell is going on.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on Knobby, Sydney hose prices are bizarre, why does everyone want to live there and are prepared to pay anything just to do it?
> 
> It has to be the fact that they think they will be able to flip it for a profit, so it is seen a sure thing, smells of a ponzi to me, sooner or later the music has to stop and someone will be left carrying the parcel.
> 
> People aren't being forced into buying and bidding up these stupid prices, what the hell is going on.



F.O.M.O.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> F.O.M.O.



Missing out on what? a millstone around your neck and probably your kids necks as well. 
I mean seriously some people have a reason why they can't possibly leave Sydney and relocate, maybe they have the contract to paint the harbour bridge, but most would have no reason why they can't move to another place and settle there where prices are cheaper, as Knobby says Australia has a hell of a lot of empty land and cheap cities..
If the majority moved out, the prices would collapse, IMO it is either an ego trip, plain stupidity, or greed that is driving the prices.


----------



## PZ99 (18 May 2022)

It's where the good jobs are.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> It's where the good jobs are.



They certainly must be, because the repayments must be eye watering. 
When I was working, I had sleepless nights worrying about a $200k line of credit, to buy shares with.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> It's where the good jobs are.



Thats it. Regional areas are mostly only good for farmers or miners.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

I certainly hope Albo holds it together, the ABC are starting to print nonsense, which isn't a good sign.
Why does he have to give costings, until he is ready to, move on to another question rather than harp on, it would do anyone's head in.
There isn't a law that says he has to give costings, just because journalists ask for them, if it is better to release them next Thursday why wouldn't he? Stupid media IMO









						Frustrated Albanese had just one answer for the media — whatever the question
					

Facing repeated questions about what Labor's plans would do to the budget if it was to win the election, an irritated Albanese was in no mind to answer variations of the question with any substance, writes Brett Worthington.




					www.abc.net.au
				



A frustrated Opposition Leader had one answer for the media travelling with him on Tuesday.

It basically boils down to: See you next Thursday. 

"Our costings will be outlined on Thursday," Anthony Albanese repeatedly offered before calling quits to his press conference after 12 minutes of questions.

Thursday. Thursday. Thursday.

Facing repeated questions about what Labor's plans would do to the budget if it was to win the election, an irritated Albanese was in no mind to answer variations of the question with any substance.


----------



## PZ99 (18 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Thats it. Regional areas are mostly only good for farmers or miners.



It all comes down to more opportunities and it isn't just Sydney / Melbourne...

One example - an employee from a Gold Coast car parts outlet was suspended from work because he forcibly recovered a part from some womans' pram that she stole from the shop.

The next day he got the same job from a competitor employer. It's that kind of income security you need to pay the bills so that's why so many people work in these areas.

Where I live in Sydney I can walk to everything I need including a hospital, medical centre, 3 forms of public transport, Supermarket, 24/7 groceries, Officeworks... the whole shebang. Can ever score a quickie in the mall at will 

More to the point though, I have thousands of people in my network because I've worked with so many people in the factories (do a google view of Eastern Creek and then double the number of factories because they are going up quicker than you can say "gimme a job ya poor rich fat skinny bastard" 

When I bought this place during the last year of the Howard govt the housing market was relatively "unaffordable" and made worse with increasing interest rates just like it is now. It didn't take long before I needed an income boost. One phone call and a month later I had a second job and happy days.

Even in the late 80's it was the same. If you wanna work you go to the big smoke but it'll cost ya.

It will never change unless maybe we kick the pollies and public servants out of Canberra and force them on a roadshow where they setup in the sticks for a few years and then buzz off somewhere else.

Why not? It's just a bloody circus anyways


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> It all comes down to more opportunities and it isn't just Sydney / Melbourne...
> 
> One example - an employee from a Gold Coast car parts outlet was suspended from work because he forcibly recovered a part from some womans' pram that she stole from the shop.
> 
> ...




It's also about circles of acquaintances. Unless you have friends n the bush sticking with the people you know is attractive.

Most people don't tend to move far from where they grew up, went to school and where their friends are.

Regional people are a fairly insular group, the old story that you have to be in an area for 20 years before you 'belong' there is not just a myth.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's also about circles of acquaintances. Unless you have friends n the bush sticking with the people you know is attractive.
> 
> Most people don't tend to move far from where they grew up, went to school and where their friends are.
> 
> Regional people are a fairly insular group, the old story that you have to be in an area for 20 years before you 'belong' there is not just a myth.



The wife and I moved about quite a bit, her father was a teacher, so as a child she lived in a lot of small country towns, including Denham and the Cocos Islands 60 years ago.
I came here as a kid and the old man moved to the mining towns when they opened up in the late 1960's, since we have been married we have moved seven times, with a load of kids in tow. 🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The wife and I moved about quite a bit, her father was a teacher, so as a child she lived in a lot of small country towns, including Denham and the Cocos Islands 60 years ago.
> I came here as a kid and the old man moved to the mining towns when they opened up in the late 1960's, since we have been married we have moved seven times, with a load of kids in tow. 🤣




And how did you find settling into new places ?


----------



## wayneL (18 May 2022)

[







sptrawler said:


> The wife and I moved about quite a bit, her father was a teacher, so as a child she lived in a lot of small country towns, including Denham and the Cocos Islands 60 years ago.
> I came here as a kid and the old man moved to the mining towns when they opened up in the late 1960's, since we have been married we have moved seven times, with a load of kids in tow. 🤣



Only 7?

Jeez, you have a bit of catching up to do


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> [
> Only 7?
> 
> Jeez, you have a bit of catching up to do



Yes I was lucky I scored my dream job in my 30's, I was certainly sick of moving house with four kids by then.
The only good thing about moving is, it makes you get rid of $hit you've been hording, I really need to move again.


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## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> And how did you find settling into new places ?



Back in the 60's and 70's in the mining towns in my early teens, it was interesting, I would get into a lot of fights because I was a pommie bar$tard. The upside was the girls found my accent nice, so I did  o.k with them, but that led to a lot more fights with the guys.
So my memories were fighting, having a hell of a lot of fun and a lot more fighting. 🥳

Having said that, usually after a blue they became your best mates, I've still got friends who I drop in and see when I'm up the bush and I might not have seen them for 30-40 years, people seemed to be a lot more genuine back then, they spoke their mind and that was it.
If you had a similar point of view you got on, if you didn't well you just didn't gravitate around them, but generally everyone found their clique.

As the 1980's came around, travel became easier, cars, planes, mining booms and W.A became a lot more multicultural so now no one is an oddity.

I didn't have trouble settling into new places, with me I can't be bothered with crap, I say what I think, people either love me or hate me. I found that approach kind of sorted out where you fitted in really quickly, so you made friends with like minded people and those that didn't like you didn't seek your company.


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## Smurf1976 (19 May 2022)

rederob said:


> But this is about the *response *to a crisis as distinct from its cause or nature.
> 
> In my lifetime I cannot think of more measures from government at both levels that were as fiscally damaging, socially disruptive, and closed international and domestic borders.



Agree that the response was far from ideal in all sorts of ways.

Politically though, blame is extremely relevant and doubly so when it's widely known that most countries had a far from perfect response.

China's still having lockdowns today.

The UK and US, the most obvious comparisons many Australians will make, both ended up with a large death toll.

ScoMo's akin to the ineffective firefighter who couldn't put out a small bonfire. He does however have the advantage that everyone knows he's not the arsonist.

I'm no fan of him but the reality that there's any chance at all of the Coalition being re-elected says quite a bit. It ought to be a walk in the park for Labor to win but in practice it seems at least reasonably close.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> (Is it Morrisons genius? He was a marketing guy.)



Pick any industry that sells something directly to the general public. Anything from private schools to fast food.

Who achieves the greatest volume of sales?

Vary rarely is it whoever has the best product. Rather, it's whoever has the best marketing.

Music's a good example there. Find the most commercially successful singers. Now find the technically best singers. We all know they're not the same people.

Or just look at the composition of parliament. It's disproportionately filled with people from careers where the ability to sell an argument has at least some relevance and where the ability to stall is a key skill. Law, unions, media etc. It's not filled with those from scientific fields who seek the truth and it's not filled with tradies or small shop owners for whom success requires getting things done.


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## sptrawler (19 May 2022)

Probably the wrong thread, but it gave me a laugh.
IMO this shows the age of entitlement, the telco's complaining that they have to fund some of the infrastructure that brings them greater returns. Before the NBN ADSL2 was costing me $30/mth, the taxpayer puts in the NBN and now I have to pay $60/mth to the telco for the same service. Nice.
Maybe the taxpayer should just pay for all the Telco's service upgrades ?  








						Telcos frustrated the Coalition is using private-sector millions to promote infrastructure projects
					

Some of Australia's largest telecommunications companies are frustrated the Coalition is dragging them in to its re-election bid, with the government trumpeting 100 infrastructure investments during the campaign which are partly funded by private companies.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Some of Australia's largest telecommunications companies are frustrated the Coalition is dragging them into its re-election bid, with the government trumpeting 100 infrastructure investments which are partly funded by private companies.
Industry sources have told the ABC there are serious concerns about the management of the latest round of the Regional Connectivity Program (RCP), which the Commonwealth is funding to the tune of $140 million.
Telstra is the biggest private financial backer, funding 63 of the projects at a cost of $30.6 million.

The company told the ABC it also helped convince state governments and other stakeholders to chip in $22.6 million.


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## sptrawler (19 May 2022)

I'm not sure that headline is well presented. You would think the editor would seperate the articles a bit.


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## PZ99 (19 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not sure that headline is well presented. You would think the editor would seperate the articles a bit.
> 
> 
> View attachment 141872



I dunno... how about "*PM disliked by only 36% of voters*"


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## The Triangle (19 May 2022)

Need to have a 3rd option _'Scomo, but only because I'm terrified of a Green-Labor alliance'_


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## Mohammed Hazabig'un (20 May 2022)

What's the concenus wrt the ASX200 on who wins? If LNP wins, a bit of "lead in the pencil" for the ASX200, a drop if Labor wins? A drop if minority Government?


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## SirRumpole (20 May 2022)

Mohammed Hazabig'un said:


> What's the concenus wrt the ASX200 one who wins? If LNP wins, a bit of "lead in the pencil" for the ASX200, a drop if Labor wins? A drop if minority Government?




Not much change either way probably. The market finds its own level.

Might drop a bit if hung Parliament due to uncertainty but overseas factors will likely dominate.


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (20 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not much change either way probably. The market finds its own level.
> 
> Might drop a bit if hung Parliament due to uncertainty but overseas factors will likely dominate.



I've got 100k on the ASX200 going south, so I'm hoping the Greens or Pauline Hanson get in


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## Mohammed Hazabig'un (20 May 2022)

Anthony Green has it for the Coalition atm. I can't remember the name of the other poll that is supposed to be the most accurate.


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## PZ99 (20 May 2022)

I'm sticking with the prediction I made a month ago.. 

1.5% swing to Labor. Coalition 73 and Labor 72 seats. Rest-of-the-World 6 seats. Hung parliament.

It's worth noting the Coalition historically do well with postal votes and they are nearly twice as high as they were in 2019. 

No reaction in the ASX apart from world markets which will probably be steady on Monday.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I'm sticking with the prediction I made a month ago..
> 
> 1.5% swing to Labor. Coalition 73 and Labor 72 seats. Rest-of-the-World 6 seats. Hung parliament.
> 
> ...




In that case it comes down to how many of the Independents each side can rely on.

What do you reckon ?


----------



## wayneL (20 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> In that case it comes down to how many of the Independents each side can rely on.
> 
> What do you reckon ?



Interesting question. I was the member of a party and member of a factional think tank when I was in the UK, as you may recall.

When we were in minor party we could safely stick to our purported ideals, all was cool. Once there was a sniff of power via a coalition, most of those ideals went straight out the window and power was the (almost) only consideration.

I believe they made the least worst choice in the end, but I found the whole process disappointing. I resigned from the party soon after.

<Edited autocorrect>

Curiously I'm a member of that party's namesake here (quite a different beast though). There is no possibility of a coalition for us at this stage, but hoping to be part of a sizeable cross bench. That will be interesting to see how things develop there, if so.


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## PZ99 (20 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> In that case it comes down to how many if the Independents each side can rely on.
> 
> What do you reckon ?



Horse trading would probably favour Labor when it comes to climate policy and integrity commission winning over CA and indies.

Katter will stick with the Coalition but it won't be enough.


----------



## wayneL (20 May 2022)

Pauline has a point here


----------



## moXJO (20 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Pauline has a point here




I'd actually be inclined to vote for scomo if he was like this in real life.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

The SMH senior reporters, seem to be moving from a 'Labor landslide' narrative, to a 'one each way' narrative. So it must be tightening up IMO. Five weeks ago it was Morrison is done and dusted, to now it is hard to pick a winner.
In recent times I can't remember any side of politics get five terms in office, so this really is uncharted territory, if they did get returned what has done it?








						Once over lightly: Morrison and Albanese campaigns haven’t dared to dig deep – and that’s why it’s so hard to pick a winner
					

The rival leaders have left little to risk on the campaign trail, but that lack of engagement with voters means it’s less clear how they will respond with their ballots.




					www.smh.com.au
				



Scott Morrison and Anthony Albanese have hit the ground running in the final days of this campaign to convey total confidence that victory is within their reach. Yet both leaders have touched the ground lightly over the past six weeks in a way that has kept voters at a distance and revealed the caution – timidity, even – in their competing strategies.
The prime minister and the Labor leader have skimmed across the surface of every electorate with brief visits and controlled meetings that have limited their engagements with voters in every location.


----------



## wayneL (20 May 2022)




----------



## Smurf1976 (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The prime minister and the Labor leader have skimmed across the surface of every electorate with brief visits and controlled meetings that have limited their engagements with voters in every location.



That sums the whole situation up unfortuately.

The entire political process is skimming the surface not only of electorates but of everything it deals with, failing to come up with in depth solutions to the nation's problems.


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## MovingAverage (20 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> That sums the whole situation up unfortuately.
> 
> The entire political process is skimming the surface not only of electorates but of everything it deals with, failing to come up with in depth solutions to the nation's problems.



100%...all parties treat the voting public like idiots that are incapable of comprehending more than two sentences.


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## Eager (20 May 2022)

^ I think you are right, but I do see a degree of difference between the parties. To me, it's simple - the party or leader who treats people like mugs the most, is the one who uses slogans the most. They all do it, but some more than others.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

Eager said:


> ^ I think you are right, but I do see a degree of difference between the parties. To me, it's simple - the party or leader who treats people like mugs the most, is the one who uses slogans the most. They all do it, but some more than others.



Absolutely and the problem is, most times we have to experience it, before we realise it.


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## Stockbailx (21 May 2022)

It's election day today and I guess you could say that it's hit the ground running at 8 o'clock. I got in before the ques first thing this morning, only to find out I wasn't on the pay role? After a bit of stuffing around, I still voted.
I thought I might tell everyone my vote, not trusting the poles, it would be interesting to see where everyone voted on ASF If you'd like?
Because I'm a republican I Voted LABOUR being more in favour of a REFERENDUM...


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## SirRumpole (21 May 2022)

Labor for me too although it won't make much difference to my seat as it's safe Nat.

Lib/Dem was on my Senate vote, above the line.


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## wayneL (21 May 2022)

Question: The you guys think the hundreds of corflute signs at polling stations influence people's vote?


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## SirRumpole (21 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Question: The you guys think the hundreds of corflute signs at polling stations influence people's vote?




Some people yes, the ones that don't really care about politics and can't think for themselves.

Maybe some voters give the ones with the most signs marks for effort, reasoning that they want to win more than people that don't show up or don't have as much money. It's my guess that only about 30% of the electorate really care about who gets in because it's much of a muchness either way.


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## Stockbailx (21 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Question: The you guys think the hundreds of corflute signs at polling stations influence people's vote?



By the time you get there and being organized, you look at your vote paper, and as I need classes I don't know who's, who. So all in all they come down to the price of eggs in china...


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## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

Learnt something surprising today.
New Zealand announced they will be in budget surplus on budget predictions.
Look at us, 1 trillion debt and deficits as far as the eyes can see.


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## Stockbailx (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Learnt something surprising today.
> New Zealand announced they will be in budget surplus on budget predictions.
> Look at us, 1 trillion debt and deficits as far as the eyes can see.



Don't forget to post your vote?


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Learnt something surprising today.
> New Zealand announced they will be in budget surplus on budget predictions.
> Look at us, 1 trillion debt and deficits as far as the eyes can see.



That's because most New Zealanders live here. 🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's because most New Zealanders live here. 🤣




Yes, they are called sheep.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> That sums the whole situation up unfortuately.
> 
> The entire political process is skimming the surface not only of electorates but of everything it deals with, failing to come up with in depth solutions to the nation's problems.




True, but to implement your policies you have to win first.

That's the easy bit, the hard bit is getting policies through.


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## The Triangle (21 May 2022)

Stockybailz said:


> It's election day today and I guess you could say that it's hit the ground running at 8 o'clock. I got in before the ques first thing this morning, only to find out I wasn't on the pay role? After a bit of stuffing around, I still voted.
> I thought I might tell everyone my vote, not trusting the poles, it would be interesting to see where everyone voted on ASF If you'd like?
> Because I'm a republican I Voted LABOUR being more in favour of a REFERENDUM...



I'm in WA, voted for the WA party.   Icac now, and Pauline were up there (I like those videos) then a bunch of minor parties after that.  Labor, Liberal, Greens at the bottom.   Senate tried to vote for all the parties which mentioned strengthening ASIC as well. 


wayneL said:


> Question: The you guys think the hundreds of corflute signs at polling stations influence people's vote?



Absolutely - I doubt it impacts your primary/first choice, but the middle boxes for sure.  If you've just seen a sign maybe that will influence the 4th or 5th spot on your ballot.    It's impossible to remember what half these minor and independent parties stand for.  The middle of my non-senate ballot was guess work.  The UAP guy probably got a space or two higher because he talked to me (well, he tried) and others stood there with their hands in their pockets or holding a stack of leaflets.

Also, there are a _lot _of men out there and they typically vote for the most attractive looking female.


----------



## Tisme (21 May 2022)

I'd vote for Johnny Depp if he ran, Amber last


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2022)

It's interesting that at least 80% of people aren't taking anyone's how to vote cards, at my polling station at least... all very sure how they're voting (presumably).


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's interesting that at least 80% of people aren't taking anyone's how to vote cards, at my polling station at least... all very sure how they're voting (presumably).



THat sounds ominous for the Libs. Suggests to me angry voters


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> THat sounds ominous for the Libs. Suggests to me angry voters



Bit hard to gauge. The only vocally angry person was a woman who wasn't happy with our state Premier.

Of those who just took one how to vote card it seemed to be about 60-40 to Labor. But I would have expected that at this particular polling station anyway... Very working class/nappy belt.

Other booths have been reporting in the same thing about very little uptake of voting cards.

Even the other activists won't game to really pick a trend from the outside. (Not saying that there's no angry voters I will bet my bottom dollar there are, I am one of them).

Incidently was pleasantly surprised about the friendly interaction between all the party activists. Spent the morning talking to the green guy about astrophysics and astronomy... Almost forgot what we were there for LOL


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Bit hard to gauge. The only vocally angry person was a woman who wasn't happy with our state Premier.
> 
> Of those who just took one how to vote card it seemed to be about 60-40 to Labor. But I would have expected that at this particular polling station anyway... Very working class/nappy belt.
> 
> ...



I just went with my daughter. She's a green voter and vegetarian and asked for a vegetarian sausage but they didn't have them. They said promise to supply next election.My meat sausage was delicious. I think it was from the market. Not those horrible tasting Coles version.

Took forms from the Lib Dems, Libs, Labor, Greens, Socialist and the Animal Libs with whom the girl made an impassioned plea saying they know they won't win but would like to make a statement. Put them near the bottom as usual.
First thing they would do is try to ban horse racing.

Everyone seemed pretty relaxed but this is Shortens seat and pretty safe.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

This is why One Nation and United Australia won't win. They are so renegade that they waste their vote.😀


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

Son just rang up from Kambalda, they have run out of voting papers, so people can't vote, what a hoot.  🤣
This is the problem with FIFO, when everyone comes from all over the place, they have to have voting slips from everywhere.
Australia you're standing it.


----------



## macca (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Son just rang up from Kambalda, they have run out of voting papers, so people can't vote, what a hoot.  🤣



Just copy a few used ones from in the box


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Question: The you guys think the hundreds of corflute signs at polling stations influence people's vote?



I'd like to think the answer is no but there's an entire industry based around marketing and it works.


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'd like to think the answer is no but there's an entire industry based around marketing and it works.



I was watching the voters very closely, mostly out of my own interest.

Mostly I was watching body language as to whether to hand out a how to vote card. Didn't take very long to be able to predict who wanted them and he didn't... And any mug could have done so.

So what I was watching mostly is the direction of people's eyes, I could not detect any noticeable attention to the corflutes whatsoever. I would say they were 99.5% ignored.

Perhaps the corflutes around the electric pre election Day might, but I doubt it, I've never taken any notice of them myself.
Marketing but certainly is a huge factor in people's choices but as to whether all the silly signs about the place contribute to that marketing, I am very doubtful.


----------



## IFocus (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I just went with my daughter. She's a green voter and vegetarian and asked for a vegetarian sausage but they didn't have them. They said promise to supply next election.My meat sausage was delicious. I think it was from the market. Not those horrible tasting Coles version.
> 
> Took forms from the Lib Dems, Libs, Labor, Greens, Socialist and the Animal Libs with whom the girl made an impassioned plea saying they know they won't win but would like to make a statement. Put them near the bottom as usual.
> First thing they would do is try to ban horse racing.
> ...




Knobby, your daughter sounds like my kinda human you are a lucky Dad.

Does she take after Mum?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 May 2022)

gg


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Knobby, your daughter sounds like my kinda human you are a lucky Dad.
> 
> Does she take after Mum?



Yes and no, not politically or food wise.

She is pretty special in my eyes. Whip smart, pretty and a leader, much better than me in every way.

They made her a manager at Kathmandu even though she is only a casual as she is doing her teaching degree. I wanted her to do medicine but it didn't interest her.

She also works a bit with autistic kids and is also a scout leader, at 21 and follows Australian bands and clothing.
Always at parties.

Just split up with boyfriend as he wanted her to get married and have kids and she has other plans.

Embarrassing Dad.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 May 2022)

Too early to call but I doubt if ALP will have a majority Govt. if they win. 

I'm glad I've got no money on the ALP. 

gg


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Too early to call but I doubt if ALP will have a majority Govt. if they win.
> 
> I'm glad I've got no money on the ALP.
> 
> gg



The ALP was poor value.

Had a few shekels on the coalition, just on value basis. Small bet which I'll probably lose. But it's looking to be an interesting evening.

The senate will be more interesting again


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> The ALP was poor value.
> 
> Had a few shekels on the coalition, just on value basis. Small bet which I'll probably lose. But it's looking to be an interesting evening.
> 
> The senate will be more interesting again



Looks like more independents in the house also.


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Looks like more independents in the house also.



A Triumph of big money marketing to be honest.


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> A Triumph of big money marketing to be honest.



And probably a fair bit of self inflicted injury for the majors.

I reckon there is lots to learn from this election, for all.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 May 2022)

It looks as if Kristina Kennealy ( nobody's girl ) is in huge trouble in attempting to move from a posh house on the coast to commish in Fowler.

gg


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It looks as if Kristina Kennealy ( nobody's girl ) is in huge trouble in attempting to move from a posh house on the coast to commish in Fowler.
> 
> gg



And the Greens might get Brisbane. And the teals in Sydney knocking off Libs.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

The continuing attacks on Melbourne from Sky News and the coalition. The cutting of support for projects  cutting our share of capital projects to 6% of the budget when we provide way more than that in taxes is meaning many safe seats may fall.
Treat us like ****, don't be surprised to be treated like ****.
14% swing against Tim Wilson is an example.

Also be the world laggard on climate change embarrassing educuted Liberals, do corrupt things and refuse to put in safeguards just plays to the teals.

Victoria was set to not matter but its the Liberal safe seats in doubt now.


----------



## PZ99 (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Learnt something surprising today.
> New Zealand announced they will be in budget surplus on budget predictions.
> Look at us, 1 trillion debt and deficits as far as the eyes can see.



Not possible. NZ has a Labor Govt


----------



## PZ99 (21 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It looks as if Kristina Kennealy ( nobody's girl ) is in huge trouble in attempting to move from a posh house on the coast to commish in Fowler.
> 
> gg



Gave NSW ALP their biggest ever defeat - then lost the unlosable by-election, now she'll lose this.

She's as fake as a $3 dollar note.


----------



## moXJO (21 May 2022)

My election news source has been asf. Let me know who wins.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

Last comment. Bridget Archer who crossed the floor on integrity issues has done really well. Liberals will vote for good Liberals.

I'm a Liberal at heart. They need to go back to what they were. Integrity matters.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Last comment. Bridget Archer who crossed the floor on integrity issues has done really well. Liberals will vote for good Liberals.
> 
> I'm a Liberal at heart. They need to go back to what they were. Integrity matters.



A couple of terms of Labor will sort a lot of problems out IMO.


----------



## The Triangle (21 May 2022)

Once the jubilation of a win wears off the reality of the economic nightmare they've taken should (but it probably won't) set in at labor party HQ.  Interest rates are going up inflation is skyrocketing and I doubt in 3 years time the unemployment rate and commodity prices will be in a better place than they are today.  Could very likely see labor get obliterated next election through no fault of their own.   Liberals in a way dodged a bullet here. 

But good to see a big swing towards independents and small parties across the land.


----------



## rederob (21 May 2022)

Looks like green credentials prevailed above most others in deciding this election, and especially the cross bench, for the *House of Representatives. * In terms of* Labor *possibly forming a majority in the House, then Morrison's derision towards West Australians in the past 2 years will be decisive.
Early results from ACT's *Senate *voting suggests the trend of Independent gains and Coalition losses will be maintained.  Which could mean that the ALP will have to do deals with the cross benchers irrespective of Albanese's February pledge not to, if they are to get their legislation through.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Once the jubilation of a win wears off the reality of the economic nightmare they've taken should (but it probably won't) set in at labor party HQ.  Interest rates are going up inflation is skyrocketing and I doubt in 3 years time the unemployment rate and commodity prices will be in a better place than they are today.  Could very likely see labor get obliterated next election through no fault of their own.   Liberals in a way dodged a bullet here.
> 
> But good to see a big swing towards independents and small parties across the land.



Yes we should see a lot of changes, I can't wait, it will be terrific.


----------



## moXJO (21 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Once the jubilation of a win wears off the reality of the economic nightmare they've taken should (but it probably won't) set in at labor party HQ.  Interest rates are going up inflation is skyrocketing and I doubt in 3 years time the unemployment rate and commodity prices will be in a better place than they are today.  Could very likely see labor get obliterated next election through no fault of their own.   Liberals in a way dodged a bullet here.
> 
> But good to see a big swing towards independents and small parties across the land.



Business is pretty good right now. Probably the best I've seen it for construction. Labor needs to be very careful with their penchant for bureaucracy and red tape dribble. 

This election was all about the libs being thrown out for going against their supporters ideals. If we get a minority government, it's just going to reinforce that neither side was popular.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 May 2022)

Let us hope a Federal Integrity Commission gets up in the first term of Parliament and that workers who do the essential poorly paid work are paid fairly and able to afford to buy a house..

gg


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Let us hope a Federal Integrity Commission gets up in the first term of Parliament and that workers who do the essential poorly paid work are paid fairly and able to afford to buy a house..
> 
> gg



Absolutely and those who can afford to pay more tax do so.
Get rid of negative gearing on all property, get rid of franking credits for everyone, reduce capital gains offset from 50% to 25%, fix the budget in 5 years.
Lets see what happens.


----------



## qldfrog (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes we should see a lot of changes, I can't wait, it will be terrific.



Terrific or terrible?
If Víctoria or Qld state gov during covid are any indication,we will soon be a de facto dictature.
Let's pray..sadly i am a non believer...that this alp will be more like Keating than Julia


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Terrific or terrible?
> If Víctoria or Qld state gov during covid are any indication,we will soon be a de facto dictature.
> Let's pray..sadly i am a non believer...that this alp will be more like Keating than Julia



Well the people have spoken, now we have to see if they get what they wished for.
The media will be happy, but as usual time will tell.


----------



## qldfrog (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well the people have spoken, now we have to see if they get what they wished for.
> The media will be happy, but as usual time will tell.



Is that just me but i looked at a map of Australia and results:
basically capital cities are labor or extreme left and the rest LNP.
It is shockingly segregated.
Obviously numbers are there but we are getting ready to a terrible city country us vs them.
Considering manufacture is gone, we have a coffee sipping services/PS and fake jobs in cities vs remaining productive aka mostly mining and farming division.interesting


----------



## moXJO (21 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Terrific or terrible?
> If Víctoria or Qld state gov during covid are any indication,we will soon be a de facto dictature.
> Let's pray..sadly i am a non believer...that this alp will be more like Keating than Julia



I have the same reservations.  Throwing big ideas at us is one thing. Getting it done is another.

However, scomo and Dutton were walking down the wrong path. They continually stomped on rights and flushed the  "government shouldn't be in your life" liberal mantra down the toilet. And started pushing us towards to many conflicts. 

Now it's about navigating through having a "houso" as pm with a bunch of batsht crazy supporters screeching and pushing their "victim barrows" front and centre. The whole "he has empathy" shtick is just code for "cash splash my way incoming".

God help us and let's give albo a chance. But the libs needed a clean out. Let's hope Dutton is gone.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely and those who can afford to pay more tax do so.
> Get rid of negative gearing on all property, get rid of franking credits for everyone, reduce capital gains offset from 50% to 25%, fix the budget in 5 years.
> Lets see what happens.



Not going to happen.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Is that just me but i looked at a map of Australia and results:
> basically capital cities are labor or extreme left and the rest LNP.
> It is shockingly segregated.
> Obviously numbers are there but we are getting ready to a terrible city country us vs them.
> Considering manufacture is gone, we have a coffee sipping services/PS and fake jobs in cities vs remaining productive aka mostly mining and farming division.interesting



Sydney/Melbourne and the East Coast probably feel they have been hard done by because they have to pay a lot for a house, how the Government will fix that for them is the interesting part, also how they will get rid of the coal fired power stations, will be good to watch. Strap yourselves in for interesting times on the East coast IMO.
But something had to be done, treading water for three years wont work.


----------



## IFocus (21 May 2022)

Only thing I have to say is a Labor / Greens government such a beautiful thing 😂😂

Que Murdoch propaganda machine.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Not going to happen.



If not what was the election about, a change of window dressing? Something has to be done.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Only thing I have to say is a Labor / Greens government such a beautiful thing 😂😂
> 
> Que Murdoch propaganda machine.



Absolutely, it will be a nice change.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If not what was the election about, a change of window dressing? Something has to be done.



Some things will but that was ruled out. Not policy.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Some things will but that was ruled out. Not policy.



It will be an interesting three years IMO.
A lot less boring than the last three.


----------



## moXJO (21 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Only thing I have to say is a Labor / Greens government such a beautiful thing 😂😂
> 
> Que Murdoch propaganda machine.



I'm setting up to buy an ev (if it ever hits our shores). So I'll take advantage while it's here.


----------



## moXJO (21 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It will be an interesting three years IMO.
> A lot less boring than the last three.



Covid and WWIII didn't do it for you?


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Covid and WWIII didn't do it for you?



IMO, you aint seen nothing yet.
Ive wedged in a 28 day cruise in Oct, booked a 3 month holiday next year, ordered the new EV car, spend it while its worth something. Lol
Next job do an @IFocus , sell the unit buy a house on the canals and apply for the pension.


----------



## The Triangle (22 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It looks as if Kristina Kennealy ( nobody's girl ) is in huge trouble in attempting to move from a posh house on the coast to commish in Fowler.
> 
> gg



Thankfully gone and trust it's for good this time.  Hope she and her family get on the next flight back to America.

Maybe labor actually knew exactly what they were doing parachuting her into that electorate...  She's certainly up there on the list of hated politicians and I'm sure a lot of people in the labor party are relieved she lost.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Once the jubilation of a win wears off the reality of the economic nightmare they've taken should (but it probably won't) set in at labor party HQ.  Interest rates are going up inflation is skyrocketing and I doubt in 3 years time the unemployment rate and commodity prices will be in a better place than they are today.  Could very likely see labor get obliterated next election through no fault of their own.   Liberals in a way dodged a bullet here.
> 
> But good to see a big swing towards independents and small parties across the land.




Amazing how Labor could get there (almost) on a primary of 31%, they can thank the Greens when they form government.

I think it shows that Labor is losing its traditional base, ie the unions which are becoming less relevant to working people.

Somehow they need to be more broadly based and put out feelers to professionals, tradies and aspirational business people.

Anyway they made it , and if they don't stuff it up they should be in for a few terms.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Victoria was set to not matter but its the Liberal safe seats in doubt now.



Victoria's an interesting one.

Not intending to throw any stones or be parochial but it's at the extremes.

Second largest population state.

Second, almost first, largest capital city.

A net contributor to taxation revenue via GST with redistribution to the other states.

But.... Per capita it's the actual worst performing state in terms of it's trade balance and is so by a significant margin. A big population sucking in imports but the state just doesn't produce all that much. 

Politically a government needs Victorian votes in order to win an election.

Economically though, WA and Qld are carrying the nation to considerable extent.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Victoria's an interesting one.
> 
> Not intending to throw any stones or be parochial but it's at the extremes.
> 
> ...




I wonder how much Frydenburg's trashing of Daniel Andrews played into the loss of otherwise safe Liberal seats in Victoria.

Just a thought.


----------



## StockyGuy (22 May 2022)

ALP won in my area.  Should I be looking out for new cool stuff we'll get in my area?  New hospital facilities and whatnot


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

StockyGuy said:


> ALP won in my area.  Should I be looking out for new cool stuff we'll get in my area?  New hospital facilities and whatnot



Are you in a marginal seat ?


----------



## StockyGuy (22 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you in a marginal seat ?



Just moved from marginal to likely 'fairly safe'   so we get nothin'


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Somehow they need to be more broadly based and put out feelers to professionals, tradies and aspirational business people.



I think Tanya Pilbersek is on the right track there and presumably that means the party is.

She made comments to the effect that Australia has become far too fractured into lots of groups all in conflict with each other and that this wasn't at all helpful to, well, anything really.

A political party can't possibly gain 50%+ of the vote in a situation like that where it's male versus female, blue collar versus white collar, city versus country, rich versus working class, those of British descent versus Aboriginals versus those from somewhere else, and so on. Under that scenario there's simply no individual grouping that represents more than a tiny portion of the population.

We really need to get to a point, and I do think it's achievable, where most of that's irrelevant. We'll probably never erase some level of divide based on wealth but there's no rational reason why city versus rural, blue collar versus white collar, gender or heaven forbid race ought to be a factor.

I mean if you're a white collar professional woman living in a city well then you do want the farmers to be successful, right? You want food to eat yes? You do want trucks running, you do want utilities to function and so on. Same if you're out in the bush, ultimately you do want things in the cities to keep working and you're in at least some degree of trouble if they don't. You might not be in any way involved with it, you might not know a PTO* from SCATS*, but you're outright stuffed if it all stops working so rationally you'd care rather a lot that someone's looking after it.

If there's one thing I hope the new government achieves, it's to put an end to manufactured division in Australian society and seek to unite the Australian people at least within reason. We'll always have our differences but there's far too much division that's been artificially created for purely political purposes in recent times.

For those not familiar:

*PTO (Power Take Off) - you'll find this on a tractor.

*SCATS (Sydney Coordinated Adaptive Traffic System) - software that controls and synchronises road traffic signals not just in Sydney but in most urban areas.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder how much Frydenburg's trashing of Daniel Andrews played into the loss of otherwise safe Liberal seats in Victoria.



Just my perception but those in in WA didn't like ScoMo threatening the state government over borders and those in Vic didn't like the hostile approach toward their state's government and indeed the state itself.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Business is pretty good right now. Probably the best I've seen it for construction. Labor needs to be very careful with their penchant for bureaucracy and red tape dribble.



So far as the general economy is concerned, I take elections more as an indicator than a cause.

Government in any country shifting from the more "Right" of the major parties to the more "Left" of its major parties not always but often occurs around the time of a peak in business, markets and so on.

Likewise a shift to the "Right" often occurs somewhere near the depths of doom and gloom.

As with any indicator it's imperfect but:

Howard won just as the 1990's recession was really ending. Statistically it might've ended earlier but in practice it hadn't really.

Rudd elected just in time for the GFC.

Albo elected at a time when economic risk seems firmly to the downside regardless of who's in government.

Or going back even further, Whitlam was elected just in time for the economic wheels to fall off due to circumstances completely beyond the control of any Australian government.

It's an imperfect correlation but when the economy's doing nicely the concerns of the population shift toward more "Left" issues. When the economy's not doing well the concern comes firmly back to the economy and often sees a shift to the "Right".

Right now, among other risks, some really obvious ones:

Inflation

Interest rates

Housing market

Building industry looks to be shaky at best

Unemployment at 3.9% can't realistically go much lower

Energy supply and price is a bomb ready to blow up

Situation with China in particular.

Etc. There's a lot more risk to the downside than the upside at the moment.


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (22 May 2022)

Scott Morrison will be remembered as a bumbler. The first time he touched something, he'd have to come back a second time to fix it.

The image of the campaign. No one has mentioned Tames jacket. Makes me think it was all planned


----------



## qldfrog (22 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> I have the same reservations.  Throwing big ideas at us is one thing. Getting it done is another.
> 
> However, scomo and Dutton were walking down the wrong path. They continually stomped on rights and flushed the  "government shouldn't be in your life" liberal mantra down the toilet. And started pushing us towards to many conflicts.
> 
> ...



Oh i have no love lost on the lnp,the capitulation to syates during covid was a disgrace,keeping us in jail during covid was a clear no go.
Freedom is now gone forever here ,at least my lifetime but people will tell me that freedom to buy eat read travel what where you want is not freedom🥴
This is just a copycat of the wider movement which tackled first europe nesrly 4 decades ago and lately the US.
Cronyism socialism is hete
Another domino falling in the West


----------



## qldfrog (22 May 2022)

While i dislike the current Labor puppets, i see one good point: beside the obvious social media/media bias on News ltd and their ABC, etc:
 i do not believe that vote has been rigged so that election is still kind of old style democracy representative of the Australian. People.
We need to celebrate that as many in the west have lost even that.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 May 2022)

Just remember Comrades that anyone is capable of becoming Prime Minister.

And that most Politicians on achieving power become bastards.

gg


----------



## Mohammed Hazabig'un (22 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Just remember Comrades that anyone is capable of becoming Prime Minister.
> 
> And that most Politicians on achieving power become bastards.
> 
> gg



Power corrupts and absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

Greens 12% with 1.68% swing.
Independents 5.52% with 2.15% swing.
One Nation 5% with 1.89% swing.
UAP 4.27% with .84% swing.

Any of that likely to bring uncertainty into the Market tomorrow?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's an imperfect correlation but when the economy's doing nicely the concerns of the population shift toward more "Left" issues. When the economy's not doing well the concern comes firmly back to the economy and often sees a shift to the "Right".




I have to disagree there, sort of. 

Traditionally when times were good, the people wanted government 'out of their faces' , low taxes and less regulation so they tended towards conservative governments, but when things went bad they turned to the social safety net that Left Wing parties provided.

There would have to be some disagreement as to whether the economy is 'doing well' at the moment. Sure the headline figure of low unemployment looks good, but if you shut the borders for two years and dry up the imported labor market then obviously employers have to make do with local workers and unemployment will fall. The battle over low wages is a sign that the electorate is concerned over rising costs and how they are going to keep up. A Right Wing government is not going to do anything proactive about wages, they would leave it to 'the market' while importing cheap labour to keep wages down, so the nervous lower/middle wage earners go for the social safety net of Labor to increase wages even though Labor's promises around that area were pretty thin.

The reason I said 'sort of' is the climate change debate which has shifted the voting trends considerably. The well off who don't have to worry as much about putting food on the table are more concerned about it which is not what you would expect from Conservative voters. 

The Liberals thought that their traditional base were mostly climate change sceptics and totally mismanaged their response and it cost them, but most of that vote went to Indies and the Greens, not Labor. Labor did ok to put up a reasonable CC response without losing their inner city/working class seats but that is an area that they will have to address to stop bleeding away of their traditional base.

 'Working class' seats would be a prime target for populist parties like One Nation if Labor isn't careful and energy prices go up.

Also if the climate change situation is addressed by a Labor government the the 'concerned well off' may well drift back to the Conservatives and Labor would be disadvantaged by their own success.

Just my opinion.


----------



## moXJO (22 May 2022)

Dutton as liberal leader.... good luck with that.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Dutton as liberal leader.... good luck with that.



Yes he is about as electable as Bill.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

@SirRumpole the inner city elites have done it again, all the best with the electricity prices.
It is becoming quite interesting how the working class is moving right and the wealthy are moving to the left.


----------



## moXJO (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes he is about as electable as Bill.



For the left, he is evil incarnate. While he is leading it will keep the left mobilised against liberal.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> For the left, he is evil incarnate. While he is leading it will keep the left mobilised against liberal.



The left which is become heavily influenced by the wealthy, will stay leaning that way until they start losing money, then there will be a swing back to the right.
At the moment the wealthy are doing fine they had jobkeeper, the market is booming, they cant get enough workers, so they are smuggly sitting back ordering their Porsche Taycan and telling everyone at the dinner party how green they are.
Wait and see how they vote when it goes pear shaped and their profits start crumbling. Lol


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @SirRumpole the inner city elites have done it again, all the best with the electricity prices.
> It is becoming quite interesting how the working class is moving right and the wealthy are moving to the left.




Labor could still get over the line with a majority, but the message has been sent, no one can rely on 'heartland ' votes any more.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> Dutton as liberal leader.... good luck with that.




Angus Taylor and Dan Teghan were mentioned too. 

Are they really that desperate ? They might end up with Alan Tudge.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Labor could still get over the line with a majority, but the message has been sent, no one can rely on 'heartland ' votes any more.



This map sums it up beautifully IMO, Labor heartland. 😂


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

‘Morrison’s defeat suits me very well’​France’s outgoing foreign affairs minister publicly welcomes ‘incompetent’ Scott Morrison’s defeat, as AUKUS continues to irk.


I guess the French diesel subs will be back in play. 😂


----------



## Knobby22 (22 May 2022)

Liberal Simon Birmingham said that the Liberals were out of touch and didn’t take in people's concerns. 

He also said if you don't let the young own houses then you can't expect them to vote conservative.

Look at the voting, it's mainly young vs old.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Liberal Simon Birmingham said that the Liberals were out of touch and didn’t take in people's concerns.
> 
> He also said if you don't let the young own houses then you can't expect them to vote conservative.
> 
> Look at the voting, it's mainly young vs old.



From the map it looks like young Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane/Perth/ Adelaide/Hobart Vs the rest of Australia. 
Updated map, it looks like city elites Vs the bush dwellers.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> From the map it looks like young Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane Vs the rest of Australia.



That's where the young people live.
What about Perth and Adelaide?
That map looks out of date.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> That's where the young people live.
> What about Perth and Adelaide?



Just updated with the new map. 
That's where the young barista's and service industry workers live, the work that pays the bills is in the regions, you know where they have a shortage of 'workers'.  .


----------



## Knobby22 (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Just updated with the new map.
> That's where the young barista's live, the work that pays the bills is in the regions.



Melbourne has CSL, Australia's largest company and a huge biotech sector that brings in millions to Australia.
Queensland has manufacturing plants in steel, aluminium. 

You can sneer at the young and call them baristas if you like. Sounds like Newscorp. In my view the Liberals listening to Murdoch media was their big mistake. We aren't American.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Melbourne has CSL, Australia's largest company and a huge biotech sector that brings in millions to Australia.
> Queensland has manufacturing plants in steel, aluminium.
> 
> You can sneer at the young and call them baristas if you like. Sounds like Newscorp. In my view the Liberals listening to Murdoch media was their big mistake. We aren't American.



The problem is, if you focus your whole political system, to appease the city people you will end up just like America. Where the rich live in the Cities and the working class end up having to move further and further out and those who live in tbe regions, doing the mining and farming, miss out all together.
How do you think they feel, when the whole narrative and media/ political focus is about how they can pay for someone in Sydney to be able to afford a $1m property.
Stereotyping people because they have different views to you, isn't the way forward either IMO.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Melbourne has CSL, Australia's largest company and a huge biotech sector that brings in millions to Australia.
> Queensland has manufacturing plants in steel, aluminium.



Melbourne might have that but as a whole, Victoria is by far the worst performing state on a per capita basis when it comes to bringing money into the country. In next worst place is NSW.

At the other end of the spectrum is WA followed by Queensland.

SA and Tas both sit in the middle. Not great contributors but not the drain that many would imagine either. They’re muddling along, real product for export does come out of both states albeit not on the scale of WA or Qld.

There’s a divide between Australia’s economic basis and its politics.

Not intending to throw stones there as per my previous comment.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Melbourne has CSL, Australia's largest company and a huge biotech sector that brings in millions to Australia.
> Queensland has manufacturing plants in steel, aluminium.
> 
> You can sneer at the young and call them baristas if you like.



By the way I wasn't sneering at baristas or service industry/hospitality workers, how much of the Melbourne/Sydney youth work in that sector as opposed to working for CSL/biotech/steel and aluminium?  I was stating a fact.

*The 10 Biggest Industries by Employment in Australia*

Community Services in Australia. ...
Consumer Goods Retailing in Australia. ...
Temporary Staff Services in Australia. ...
Public General Hospitals in Australia. ...
Supermarkets and Grocery Stores in Australia. ...
Aged Care Residential Services in Australia. ...
Government Schools in Australia.
AS for not being like America, we are certainly heading that way, the rich get richer and the worker gets screwed.

The statistic shows the distribution of the workforce across economic sectors in the United States from 2009 to 2019. In 2019, 1.36 percent of the workforce in the US was employed in agriculture, 19.91 percent in industry and *78.74 percent* in services. See U.S. GDP per capita for more information.


----------



## basilio (22 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Melbourne might have that but as a whole, Victoria is by far the worst performing state on a per capita basis when it comes to bringing money into the country. In next worst place is NSW.
> 
> At the other end of the spectrum is WA followed by Queensland.
> 
> ...




Interesting . I wonder if that analysis includes the value of overseas students coming to the country?

The economic basis Smurf is highlighting would be (I guess) the huge iron ore, oil, gas and minerals projects. Our manufacturing  industry has certainly collapsed.  It would be interesting to see how much employment has been generated by the resource industry in relation to it's size. 

Also be interesting to see the economic return to the country relative to the overall profits of the industries.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Stereotyping people because they have different views to you, isn't the way forward either IMO.



Australians need to learn to disagree better.

The division between men and woman, blue collar and white, city versus country and so on and the framing of the other side as being in some way inferior isn’t at all helpful.

Rationally all Australians ought want to see white collar workers in Melbourne succeed but they’ll rationally want to see farmers out in the middle of nowhere doing well too.

Everyone needs to understand that it only takes one dud wheel to derail the train. We need the nation sticking together not tearing itself apart.


----------



## basilio (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> By the way I wasn't sneering at baristas or service industry/hospitality workers, how much of the Melbourne/Sydney youth work in that sector as opposed to working for CSL/biotech/steel and aluminium?  I was stating a fact.
> 
> *The 10 Biggest Industries by Employment in Australia*
> 
> ...




Is this the source of your information SP ? The one I found gave more detail and is similar but with some big differences.

The 10 Biggest Industries by Employment in Australia​ 

Industry
Employment number for 2022
1.
State Government Administration in Australia​1,612,290
2.
Health Services in Australia​872,102
3.
Professional Services in Australia​839,856
4.
Community Services in Australia​787,720
5.
Consumer Goods Retailing in Australia​656,435
6.
Temporary Staff Services in Australia​431,480
7.
Public General Hospitals in Australia​390,322
8.
Supermarkets and Grocery Stores in Australia​379,433
9.
Aged Care Residential Services in Australia​329,453
10.
Government Schools in Australia​321,223









						IBISWorld - Industry Market Research, Reports, and Statistics
					

Expert industry market research to help you make better business decisions, faster. Industry market research reports, statistics, analysis, data, trends and forecasts.




					www.ibisworld.com


----------



## basilio (22 May 2022)

Another perspective from IBIS









						IBISWorld - Industry Market Research, Reports, and Statistics
					

Expert industry market research to help you make better business decisions, faster. Industry market research reports, statistics, analysis, data, trends and forecasts.




					www.ibisworld.com


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

basilio said:


> Is this the source of your information SP ? The one I found gave more detail and is similar but with some big differences.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just googled it, your article shows a very similar list, manufacturing and or secondary industries don't get a mention, so as I pointed out the frustration for country people constantly being bombarded with Sydney/Melbourne affordability is understandable, the main employer are either service industry or Government which in turn is the taxpayer.
People keep bidding up house prices in Sydney/Melbourne, it isn't the house price fairy waving a wand, why should the taxpayer have to find ways to support the ponzi? If people can't afford them, they wouldn't keep buying them and the prices would come down.
We haven't had any immigrants in the last two years, yet Sydney/Melbourne prices have gone stupid, whose fault is that? The whole issue is just entitled people, wanting to get on the entitled ponzi scheme, while we are trying to open the borders so we can bring in workers, is Australia like the U.S? absolutely.
Just keep cranking the interest rates, put a hold on negative gearing and only allow losses to be carried forward against future capital gains. Sydney/Melbourne would soon have a correction.
Or work out how we are going to get young people in Sydney/Melbourne into houses, when they hit $2m, then @3m, then $4m...









						Businesses welcome migration agreement to ease 'dystopian' worker shortages in the Pilbara
					

Businesses in the Pilbara have been quick to welcome a new migration agreement that will help address "dystopian" skills shortages in the region.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Just keep cranking the interest rates, put a hold on negative gearing and only allow losses to be carried forward against future capital gains. Sydney/Melbourne would soon have a correction.




Yes, but as we know the politics are that more people own houses than want to buy them, so most of us  want prices to stay high or go higher.

It's self defeating in the end, because we can't move to cheaper places these days because there aren't any, even in the regional areas.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but as we know the politics are that more people own houses than want to buy them, so most of us  want prices to stay high or go higher.
> 
> It's self defeating in the end, because we can't move to cheaper places these days because there aren't any, even in the regional areas.



So then we have to start giving subsidies, so that someone can a fford a house, they cant really afford. Sounds like giving a gambler a loan, on the hope they have a win and can pay you back.
And the banks were given a hammering for irresponsible lending, what a laugh.
Meanwhile we start importing workers again, for the high paid jobs, that our workers dont want because they want to stay in Sydney.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So then we have to start giving subsidies, so that someone can a fford a house, they cant really afford. Sounds like giving a gambler a loan, on the hope they have a win and can pay you back.




Yep, the only answer is to add to supply, whether it be social housing or home units like I suggested before. Give people a place to start from anyway.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 May 2022)

re. Housing.

It is Neighbours that matter.

I have lived in low class and high class units and houses, and those adjacent often made or lessened my quality of life. 

If one is in Commish one can be fortunate. 

Equally living among the very rich one can be very unfortunate. 

I would prefer not to live among Commish given over to drug addicts and crims, nor on Sovereign Island on the Gold Coast among a similar though more well heeled populace. 

gg


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

On the question of housing I think one of the Liberals, Simon Birmingham, actually nailed it.

He was on TV last night. His words not mine:









						Senior Liberals say party must address women problem and regain centre after election loss
					

Liberal frontbencher Simon Birmingham said gender, diversity, and climate change were clearly factors in the party’s defeat




					www.theguardian.com
				






> The great thing about housing affordability which I think is impacting enormously is, you can’t create conservatives if they have got nothing to conserve. If you don’t own a house, you can’t conserve. That’s our natural constituents and we need to get back to that




Which brings me to a broader point. In my view we haven't just seen the end of the Morrison government or even the end of 9 years' of Coalition governments. It's bigger than that, much bigger in my view.

Take a look around and there's an awful lot of things which are at an end point and many of them are things of serious importance. Pretty much everything that has dominated the past 40 years economically and politically is tired and past its peak at this point and my thinking is that what we're seeing is a much greater turning point.

In that regard I note that neither Labor nor The Greens made much reference to their own past this election and the leaders of both have clearly set a new course. The Liberals referenced Howard but, if they learn from the defeat, that's the last time he'll be heard from. The world has changed and what was relevant in the 1980's or 90's isn't relevant today.

The greatest challenge for the new government in my view will be to keep the lights on and I mean that metaphorically rather than electrically, although it applies to that too. There's an awful lot of things right now where the wheels look to be coming off:

Debt / interest rates

Building industry

Energy industry

Inflation / cost of living

Globalisation as a concept

Supply chains physically

Relations with China and others

Less certain but I strongly suspect the tertiary education sector belongs on the list too.

Or in other words, I'm seeing a greater change in society and that the past few decades' trend of living like kings with no real thought to the consequences is at an end. Time will tell but that's my reading of it, broader change is afoot far beyond just a change of government.

Anyone who thinks we're about to see a boom is in for a shock in my view. There's a lot of issues to be sorted and that's going to take a long time to work through. Many are in for a shock I expect.


----------



## Eager (22 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> The greatest challenge for the new government in my view will be to keep the lights on and I mean that metaphorically rather than electrically, although it applies to that too. There's an awful lot of things right now where the wheels look to be coming off:
> 
> Debt / interest rates
> 
> ...



I agree, this was a very good election for Morrison to lose. Luckily, the left is commonly elected to handle volatile situations. Scullin, Curtin, etc. Even Rudd, who admittedly wasn't elected during a crisis, responded appropriately during the GFC....and Morrison mimicked him during the pandemic because he recognised that it was the best way to handle it.

I don't agree with your last paragraph however. I am very bullish on the opportunities which will come from moving beyond the traditional dig-a-hole-in-the-ground mentality.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 May 2022)

basilio said:


> The economic basis Smurf is highlighting would be (I guess) the huge iron ore, oil, gas and minerals projects. Our manufacturing industry has certainly collapsed. It would be interesting to see how much employment has been generated by the resource industry in relation to it's size.



To a large extent yes.

WA and Qld exports are dominated by mining and exporting essentially unprocessed materials.

NSW and SA it's mixed. Mining's a very definite thing but those two states also have the only steelworks in Australia, they also have other industries of all sorts. There's mining but it's not the only show in town. 

Tasmania's somewhat different in that whilst the state does have a mining industry, to the extent the state has a heavy industrial presence it's far more about refining and other forms of value adding.

Iron ore mined at Savage River is transported by pipeline (yep, pipeline not road or rail) to Port Latta, then pelletized prior to shipping. So it's a value added product, not just the ore, being sold.

The third largest electrolytic zinc smelter in the world is in suburban Hobart and that alone is a $1.5 billion a year operation in terms of exports. Right next to that is a fertilizer manufacturing plant, and next to that is the Incat shipyard which exports globally.

Or at the other end of the state Bell Bay is essentially about shipping in raw materials, refining, and shipping out the products and even at lot of that is further processed. Eg alumina shipped in, refined to aluminium most of which is then cast as alloys or used in the production of aluminium powder, then shipped out. Same with manganese. Ship the manganese in, refine it, ship out silicomanganese and ferromanganese. The product shipped out is worth far more than the ore it came from.

Now of relevance politically, well if we just refined all bauxite presently mined in Australia to aluminium, rather than exporting it in raw form or as just alumina as is presently done, well that would completely replace the export value of coal. In round figures, it's an equal value there that we're presently failing to capture.

Much the same with other minerals. The ore just isn't worth that much, the real economic benefit's in refining it or, even better, then using that refined product to actually build finished products.

We could do a lot better economically than just digging up the ground in WA and loading it onto ships bound for wherever. That's not about profit per se, but if you've got $1 billion coming into the country instead of $50 million, and that is indeed the ratio for some minerals, well that additional $950 million is coming into the country and ending up in the hands of workers, contractors, suppliers government, shareholders and so on but it's all ultimately money coming into the local economy from outside.

We could do a lot more than just being a quarry.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> To a large extent yes.
> 
> WA and Qld exports are dominated by mining and exporting essentially unprocessed materials.
> 
> ...




Albo reckons he wants to make more things here, so lets see what he can do.


----------



## Bob (23 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Albo reckons he wants to make more things here, so lets see what he can do.



The 3 things we will never hear the end of for the next 3 years.
Climate Change
First Nations people &
Raised by a single mother !


----------



## PZ99 (23 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Albo reckons he wants to make more things here, so lets see what he can do.



No problem there. Aussie PM's have been making things up for decades 

The senate looks interesting. If Eric Abetz looses to one of Jackie's jockeys it could be that ALP / Greens / JLN hold 39 seats. That gives the Govt a far less hostile senate than in the past.

While I've never supported a Govt having control of both houses it may need to happen this time if the opposition under Peter Dutton is obstructionist like it was under Tony Abbott when they said NO to everything purely to gain political mileage.

Gotta admit one gets a sense of satisfaction reading this article. 








						In shock and anger over Liberal defeat, Sky News commentators urge party to shift right
					

Sky After Dark regulars say the Liberal party must distinguish itself by appealing to ‘conservative values that Labor have abandoned’




					www.theguardian.com
				



The anti Labor trolls are reacting like they've had their backsides handed to them.

Hoisted by their own petard


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> No problem there. Aussie PM's have been making things up for decades
> 
> The senate looks interesting. If Eric Abetz looses to one of Jackie's jockeys it could be that ALP / Greens / JLN hold 39 seats. That gives the Govt a far less hostile senate than in the past.
> 
> ...




May they choke on it every day for three years at least.


----------



## moXJO (23 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Gotta admit one gets a sense of satisfaction reading this article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How couldn't they see that they were going to lose?

They sht all over their base. If they stick Dutton in as leader then they learnt nothing.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> How couldn't they see that they were going to lose?
> 
> They sht all over their base. If they stick Dutton in as leader then they learnt nothing.




For sure, replace one bulldozer with another and they are asking for trouble.

The Sky News people are not Liberals (as media they shouldn't be anything), they are far Right Wing, just short of Neo Nazis.


----------



## basilio (23 May 2022)

A really great piece by Annabel Crabb in the ABC.  Examines with her usual flair how Morrison determinedly missed all the signs that women were seriously, seriously xissed off with him and his government.

The lost women​Scott Morrison can’t say he wasn’t warned that women were angry. But will the next Liberal leader heed the lessons Morrison ignored?
By Annabel Crabb
Updated 23 May 2022, 9:24am
Published 23 May 2022, 5:00am

The history of human congress is littered with the stories of men who wake up to Dear John letters after years of not listening properly when the women in their lives say they’re unhappy.

But Scott Morrison – who received God knows how many final warnings from Australian women over the past year but chose every time to continue bulldozing happily along — seems to have achieved something novel, having unmistakably on Saturday night received a John Deere letter.

Morrison’s bulldozing ways are central to this upheaval in the political landscape and to the damage done to the Liberal Party.









						The final warning for Morrison fell on deaf ears. Now women have voted him out
					

Scott Morrison can't say he wasn't warned that women were angry. But will the next Liberal leader heed the lessons Morrison ignored, asks Annabel Crabb.




					www.abc.net.au


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## basilio (23 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> For sure, replace one bulldozer with another and they are asking for trouble.
> 
> The Sky News people are not Liberals (as media they shouldn't be anything), they are far Right Wing, just short of Neo Nazis.



Indeed.  They are certainly on the same page as Genghis Kkan and if they had their way they would drag One Nation, UAP, anti vaxxers and the rest of the splinter right wing extremists into the party.  I thought some of the comments made these commentators was enlightening. As usual Andrew Bolt was at his spitting, snarling best

_Outsiders co-host Rowan Dean wasn’t taking it well. The editor of the Spectator said we were facing “three years of hard-core left-wing government that will destroy the fabric of this nation”.

For Peta Credlin, one of Murray’s Sky After Dark colleagues, the way forward was clear. The Liberal party, for which she worked before becoming a Sky talking head, must lurch to the right to provide a clear alternative.

“From Menzies, through Fraser and Howard to Abbott, the lesson is clear,” Credlin wrote in the News Corp tabloids on Sunday. “The Coalition wins and keeps winning when it’s a strong alternative to Labor. It loses when it’s hard to distinguish from the other side.”

But it was Andrew Bolt, the Herald Sun’s star columnist and Sky News host, who reacted with visceral anger.
*
“Scott Morrison’s pathetic Liberals got smashed by telling the world they were the Guilty Party,” Bolt wrote. “Guilty on the ‘climate emergency’. Guilty of being mean to women. Guilty on ‘reconciliation’.

“Who’d vote for such a mewling pack of self-haters with so little self-respect that they won’t even sack a party traitor like Malcolm Turnbull? Thank God this election wipe-out has taken out many of their worst grovellers.
*_
*“Please, Peter Dutton, take over, and make the Liberals stop apologising for not being more like Labor. Let the Liberals be Liberals again. But still I see some of the more clueless Liberal survivors crawl from the wreckage and whimper that they’ve got to swing even more to the Left.”









						In shock and anger over Liberal defeat, Sky News commentators urge party to shift right
					

Sky After Dark regulars say the Liberal party must distinguish itself by appealing to ‘conservative values that Labor have abandoned’




					www.theguardian.com
				



*


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2022)

@SirRumpole and @basilio the enthusiasm is contagious, but the reality is not good for either major party, the graph below shows that the general public find both parties on the nose. Labor just won office with the lowest primary vote ever in Australia.
A win is a win, but reading things into it that aren't there, could lead to disappointment. 
The good thing is, it wont be a boring three years, as it would have been under the coalition, they had to be flipped and they were.  









						'It's the national electorate that's breaking apart': Antony Green on the election result
					

After a bruising night for the Coalition, Labor has emerged victorious in Saturday's federal election. Here, ABC chief election analyst Antony Green takes us through some of the key takeaways — and still unanswered questions.




					www.abc.net.au
				










From the article:
What last night's result shows is that the two major parties are no longer represented across all parts of the country. There was a time when both major parties would get a substantial majority of the vote in every seat.

People are looking at the national vote level, and missing the fact that the change is occurring at a much lower level; there are parts of cities where Labor's votes have disappeared, and there are parts of the country where the Liberals and Nationals did very poorly and the independents did well.

It's the national electorate that's breaking apart.


----------



## moXJO (23 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @SirRumpole and @basilio the enthusiasm is contagious, but the reality is not good for either major party, the graph below shows that the general public find both parties on the nose. Labor just won office with the lowest primary vote ever in Australia.
> A win is a win, but reading things into it that aren't there, could lead to disappointment.
> The good thing is, it wont be a boring three years, as it would have been under the coalition, they had to be flipped and they were.
> 
> ...



I agree with "libs lost, Labor didn't win".
Libs made a series of errors that turned off the lib leaning swing voters. Even conservatives in general.

Realistically libs should have been gone last election, but Shorten was unpalatable.
Labor learnt from that last election, where as libs didn't. Labors run up to this election was where they won it. They all shut up and went incognito. None of them blasted their idiot gobs about idiotic issues. They remained pretty silent. Credit to them. Especially during the "mean girls" episode.

Albanese played a small  (mentally deficient) target. 
Never got to cost anything and his best week was probably when he was off with covid. 

Scomo on the other hand was under constant pressure from the get go. He never found traction during the election. He was already gone before the election started. 

 I'm seeing articles that it's the end of the libs. But I think big parties are in trouble regardless. Albo needs to deliver a centre sensible  agenda or he is gone.


----------



## Logique2 (23 May 2022)

Source:
[Johannes] '_Leak brilliant_ [in _The Australian_] _on the carnage'_
Monday, 23 May 2022:  https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2022/05/leak-brilliant-on-the-carnage.html


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> I agree with "libs lost, Labor didn't win".
> Libs made a series of errors that turned off the lib leaning swing voters. Even conservatives in general.
> 
> Realistically libs should have been gone last election, but Shorten was unpalatable.
> ...



The push to the Left is a bit alarming.

The Greens mean well but aren't particularly practical when it comes to the detail of power generation or wealth creation.

IMO Albo has to keep them under control and show people the practicalities of Labor policies and somehow differentiate Labor from the Greens and get back some of their primary vote.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> I'm seeing articles that it's the end of the libs.



Reminds me of Tasmania in 1998 where the Liberals basically were reduced to minor party status, indeed at one point there was public discussion as to whether they ought properly be referred to as a party given the few MP's they still had in parliament.

2014 they won a majority at the state election and have been in government ever since.

That's a state example but point is political parties do ultimately regroup and find their way back.

Another well I recall reading circa 1995 comments in newspapers to the effect that an entire generation had grown up seeing Labor as the natural choice for federal government. A year later Howard won the election and remained in office for the next 11 years.

At some future time the Coalition will be in government again.


----------



## wayneL (23 May 2022)

Some pretty interesting analysis here from the IPA, which echos other jurisdictions outside the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of Australia.

"The IPA’s John Roskam says 16 of the “poorest 20 seats” in Australia are held by the Liberal Party, which are the ones the Coalition must “fight for and stand for”.

“The Labor Party now holds more wealthy seats than does the Liberal Party,” Mr Roskam told Sky News host Peta Credlin.

“After Saturday night, seven of the wealthiest 20 electorates in Australia are held by the Labor Party, five by the Liberals.

“It’s not just a question of what do the Liberals need to do to get into the government again, it’s a question of what do they want to be, who do they want fight for.

“And, certainly, from my position, as a Liberal Party member and from the IPA’s position, the people who need a voice are those hit by rise in power prices, are those who are concerned about their children’s education.

“It is not the post-material emotional appeal of the teals, of the Greens, and now of large sections of the Labor Party that the Liberal Party should be repeating.”


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Some pretty interesting analysis here from the IPA, which echos other jurisdictions outside the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of Australia.
> 
> "The IPA’s John Roskam says 16 of the “poorest 20 seats” in Australia are held by the Liberal Party, which are the ones the Coalition must “fight for and stand for”.
> 
> ...



The general public is driven by the media, the media is driven by the advertising dollar, the advertising dollar is driven by the elites.

The problem is the elites in Australia are so comfortable they want a cause, they now have a cause, climate change, let's watch how it pans out. 😂

IMO a bit of a James Packer moment, it will be interesting watching it unfolds. 
As I told a manager once, a company can always run without a manager, it can't run without a worker.
Well that was 20 years ago, before technology. 🤪


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The general public is driven by the media, the media is driven by the advertising dollar, the advertising dollar is driven by the elites.
> The problem is the elites in Australia are so comfortable they want a cause, they now have a cause, let's watch how it pans out. 😂



Just watching Media Watch which makes the point that the Murdoch media was overwehelmingly negative about Labor and the Teals and the public totally ignored them.

So parts of the media are cr@p but the public are wise to them and think for themselves.


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Just watching Media Watch which makes the point that the Murdoch media was over we helmingly negative about Labor and the Teals and the public totally ignored them.
> 
> So parts of the media are cr@p but the public are wise to them and think for themselves.



Or maybe Murdoch will be proven right, time will tell.
I'm not one way or the other other, I can cope whoever wins and I'm not religiously tied to either party.
What I do know from working since I left school at 15 is, watching someone on T.V telling me how to think, is why I run my own SMSF. 😂
I have the greenest missus ever, catches all the washing machine water in buckets and takes it into the garden, all that $hit.
Well today we had a flood the water tank I had to put in when i built the man shed flooded the garage, reason being she planted trees all around it and it plugged the inlet filter, i asked have you ever used the tank?answer NO, so I said why not give it to the son who lives on the 100 acre block?
Another $1,000 brain fart that I can't mention.


----------



## IFocus (23 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Some pretty interesting analysis here from the IPA, which echos other jurisdictions outside the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of Australia.
> 
> "The IPA’s John Roskam says 16 of the “poorest 20 seats” in Australia are held by the Liberal Party, which are the ones the Coalition must “fight for and stand for”.
> 
> ...





You mean the IPA puppet masters of the Liberal Party, suspect that the education levels are higher in the Teal seats and many Labor seats hence people saw through the Murdock / Liberal BS. It really did get to the point of ridiculous in the end.

Still Barrie Cassidy pointed out that both majors primary vote has trended down for some time and he wouldn't be surprised if this was the last government elected as a majority seat wise. 

If that's the case suspect that Labor being the centrist party would be the 1st stop for the Teals and could be around for some time Liberals might be out for some time.

I make that point above after hearing right wing opinions says the Teals are left of Labor.


----------



## moXJO (23 May 2022)

All depends on how badly the economy is going to go. If it's up the shtter then Labor could be one term wonders. 

Same with the borders. Labor do not want boats floating in again. Once the negative news builds up, governments are done.


----------



## sptrawler (23 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> All depends on how badly the economy is going to go. If it's up the shtter then Labor could be one term wonders.
> 
> Same with the borders. Labor do not want boats floating in again. Once the negative news builds up, governments are done.



I think the biggest issue will be fossil fuel.
The greens want to absolutely ban it, it is their and the Teals ethos, that is going to hurt so bad it doesn't bear thinking about IMO.
Time will tell, but the green wave is going to be tested in the next three years.
The Greens want coal gone by 2030, they are supported by the Teals it is what they auditioned on, let's see how it goes IMO. 
From a technical perspective.
There is one thing talking the talk, another thing tripping over your feet, 2030 is 7.5 years away two terms of Government near enough. 😂
I feel another brain fart coming on. 
Here is a news forecast, due to unforeseen circumstances, the removal of coal generation has been postponed, the management is extremely sorry for the inconvenience.


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## PZ99 (24 May 2022)

Hehe... the teals will go after Labor at the next election and probably pick up another 10 seats + whatever Lib/Lab seats fall after ICAC turn the joint over. 

That'll keep the bastards honest


----------



## Knobby22 (24 May 2022)

You have to be credulous to believe Peta Credlin.

When you have people in Toorak and Hawthorn and Brighton voting in the teals, who many are daughters of ex Liberal members you have a problem.
The main reasons they are there, lack of integrity, difficulty  for women to get past the old boy network and making Australia the world laggard on climate change and Scomo spin. 
hey won't exist next election unless the Libs act against their own interests.
I doubt they will remain next election as long as the Libs don't listen to Peta (I destroyed my PM) Credlin.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2022)

I wonder if the IPA ever considered that many , many people including Liberal voters

1) Recognise that climate change is very real and serious and needs to be addressed
2) Want a government to be (reasonably) honest and aren't impressed with an administration that  refuses to take action that ensures that outcome
3) Believe women shouldn't be disrespected and are equally important in our society.

Given that was the platform for most of the Teals  then maybe the results are no real surprise.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 May 2022)

basilio said:


> I wonder if the IPA ever considered that many , many people including Liberal voters
> 
> 1) Recognise that climate change is very real and serious and needs to be addressed
> 2) Want a government to be (reasonably) honest and aren't impressed with an administration that  refuses to take action that ensures that outcome
> ...




The IPA follow Thatcher's " there is no such thing as society" motto. Nothing except money means anything to them.


----------



## wayneL (24 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> You mean the IPA puppet masters of the Liberal Party, suspect that the education levels are higher in the Teal seats and many Labor seats hence people saw through the Murdock / Liberal BS. It really did get to the point of ridiculous in the end.
> 
> Still Barrie Cassidy pointed out that both majors primary vote has trended down for some time and he wouldn't be surprised if this was the last government elected as a majority seat wise.
> 
> ...





Knobby22 said:


> You have to be credulous to believe Peta Credlin.
> 
> When you have people in Toorak and Hawthorn and Brighton voting in the teals, who many are daughters of ex Liberal members you have a problem.
> The main reasons they are there, lack of integrity, difficulty  for women to get past the old boy network and making Australia the world laggard on climate change and Scomo spin.
> ...




It reminds me of the time I lived in the UK; I was *walking back to my modest home with a trolley full of modestly packaged groceries (as modestly as we could find anyway), to be lectured by a woman for buying some bottled water.

Her trolley was full of plastic including half an orange in its own plastic tray and plastic coverings. Which she proceeded to load into her V8 petrol Range Rover, no doubt to drive home to a detached, centrally heated, double storey home.

These trendy Teal type elitists are hypocrites of the highest order, intent only on virtue signalling to their mates at dinner parties about how green they are for buying a Tesla model X (with plaid trim) while bragging about their Lear jet.

Give me a freaking break while you calculate the carbon footprints of Simon Holmes a Court and the Teals.

Credlin is right, the last thing this country needs is two Labor parties, as close to that as we are already.

I agree that authoritarian conservatism is not the way to go, (ah la Dutton) but we do need the Liberals to go back to their classical liberal, Menzian roots.

</personalopinion>


----------



## basilio (24 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The IPA follow Thatcher's " there is no such thing as society" motto. Nothing except money means anything to them.



Fair comment.  I wonder if they would enjoy a meal of molten gold? They could take it all with them









						Ridiculous History: Sentenced to Death by Molten Gold Down the Throat
					

Imagine burning molten metal poured into your open mouth. That horrifying form of execution actually happened — and scientists studied what actually killed the victim.




					history.howstuffworks.com


----------



## wayneL (24 May 2022)

Guys, I am a member of the IPA and what you say cannot be further from the truth. It's just some pretty silly demonisation to be honest.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Guys, I am a member of the IPA and what you say cannot be further from the truth. It's just some pretty silly demonisation to be honest.


----------



## Eager (24 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> I make that point above after hearing right wing opinions says the Teals are left of Labor.



We must have watched the same program. 

The only hope for the Libs now, especially if herr Dutton takes over, is to amalgamate with PUP and ON and whip people into a frenzy. Plenty of dumbass voters will get sucked in, I'm sure.


----------



## Knobby22 (10 June 2022)

Ralph Babet, United Australia Party  might be taking the third Coalition senate seat in Victoria.
Greg Mirabella, husband of Sophie is the one who loses out. He was trying to get in for the first time though he hot in a year earlier as the previous senator retired.  Clive will be happy if he gets it.
i still reckon it may go Liberal.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/elections/federal/2022/results/senate
Click on Victoria


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## mullokintyre (20 June 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Ralph Babet, United Australia Party  might be taking the third Coalition senate seat in Victoria.
> Greg Mirabella, husband of Sophie is the one who loses out. He was trying to get in for the first time though he hot in a year earlier as the previous senator retired.  Clive will be happy if he gets it.
> i still reckon it may go Liberal.
> 
> ...



Well, the Mirrabella family are all off the gravy train now.
Ralph Babet of the Australia United Party has taken the sixth senate seat.
It  highlights the absurdity of our preferential voting farce that  Babet got a gong despite  the UAP recording  0.28 of a quota on first preferences. So a tad over 70% of his quota came from the preference flow of people who may have  not even considered their vote would end up with UAP.
Mick


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## Knobby22 (20 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, the Mirrabella family are all off the gravy train now.
> Ralph Babet of the Australia United Party has taken the sixth senate seat.
> It  highlights the absurdity of our preferential voting farce that  Babet got a gong despite  the UAP recording  0.28 of a quota on first preferences. So a tad over 70% of his quota came from the preference flow of people who may have  not even considered their vote would end up with UAP.
> Mick



Mirabella only got 0.26 once you take away the first 2.

Disappointing. Now we have a crank in parliament.
He said the voting is rigged. Maybe he should resign as he must have helped rig it.


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## Value Collector (30 August 2022)

The Triangle said:


> And franking credits are effectively available to any and everyone with a share trading account. They are reasonably fair.
> 
> Negative gearing credits are really only available to people who already own a home (suppose they could be renters themselves) and have enough money to own a second investment home - which is generally the wealthy earners.



Negative gearing is available to anyone that borrows to invest, you can definitely have a negatively geared share portfolio.

If you borrow $100K to buy shares and that earn $2000 in dividend income, but your interest on the loan is $3000, you are negatively geared.

So that $1000 loss you made ($2k income minus $3k interest expense), can be written of against your other income.

So if you earn $70,000 at your job, the $1000 you lost in interest expense will be deducted from your $70,000 making your taxable income only $69,000

————————

Negative gearing isn’t just a property strategy, it’s a debt strategy in general, any leveraged investment that produces less income than its interest expense is negative gearing, it just so happens that in Australia because people live to take out big loans on property in the early years most of the time the expenses out weigh the rental income.


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## PZ99 (30 August 2022)

Bugger negative gearing. Get rid of it.


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## Value Collector (30 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Bugger negative gearing. Get rid of it.



What would you use to replace it?

I mean what method would you use to allow businesses or investments that generate losses in the early years to claim that loss?

—————-
One option would be to capitalise losses from an investment from which you deduct future profits, but if that investment never ends up making a profit you will end up with people that have no way to claim those losses.


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## PZ99 (30 August 2022)

Just remove it from the housing market and stop these taxpayer funded price distortions.


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## InsvestoBoy (30 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What would you use to replace it?
> 
> I mean what method would you use to allow businesses or investments that generate losses in the early years to claim that loss?



My proposal is that for secondary investments you should only be able to claim losses against gains from the investment you made, not other income. Which is I think what you're saying below, but I qualify it further to apply specifically to secondary investments.

Only primary investment should receive the status quo treatment, to discourage borrowing for secondary investment (which is in aggregate inert/harmful wealth transfer) and encourage primary (real) investment.



Value Collector said:


> One option would be to capitalise losses from an investment from which you deduct future profits, but if that investment never ends up making a profit you will end up with people that have no way to claim those losses.




Great. Perhaps it will encourage a bit more diligence, caution and risk management from all parties involved in heavily geared secondary markets like the Australian property market.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> My proposal is that for secondary investments you should only be able to claim losses against gains from the investment you made, not other income. Which is I think what you're saying below, but I qualify it further to apply specifically to secondary investments.
> 
> Only primary investment should receive the status quo treatment, to discourage borrowing for secondary investment (which is in aggregate inert/harmful wealth transfer) and encourage primary (real) investment.
> 
> ...



I am not sure what you mean by primary and secondary investments.

But, let’s say I some one has a some CBA, BHP, FMG and WOW shares and they are all paying a decent dividend.

But then that person decides to buy into a 5th company let’s say CSL using some debt. Are you saying  if that leveraged CSL investment generates a negative cashflow that the investor shouldn’t be able to deduct this loss from the dividends of the other companies or other investment income?  

I mean we can claim other losses from other profits all the time, I if he sold the CSL shares for a loss no one would have a problem with him deducting his CSL loss from his BHP capital gain. 

It makes perfect sense to me that an investor should only pay tax on his total net profit or loss over all, and any losses should be deducted from any profits to arrive at a net taxable income. 

I mean how far does it go, if I lose money on CSL do I have to actually go and try to make that capital gain back on CSL to be able to claim the loss?


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Just remove it from the housing market and stop these taxpayer funded price distortions.



Why single out the housing market though? At the end of the day investors putting money into the housing market does increase supply of rentals, which currently there is a shortage of.

If they want to sign up to lose money by renting out properties for less than their cost of capital and hence subsidising renters let them, if they are claiming 30cents on the $1 they lost it’s a good deal for the government and the rental market.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What would you use to replace it?
> 
> I mean what method would you use to allow businesses or investments that generate losses in the early years to claim that loss?
> 
> ...




There is no reason for negative gearing on residential property to exist at all.

As mentioned, it distorts the market.

Housing is for people to live in, not to make a profit from.

Home ownership is about the only way for most taxpayers to have a retirement buffer in their old age. NG tilts the balance in favour of landlords and away from owner occupation and contributes to the high cost of housing we have today.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no reason for negative gearing on residential property to exist at all.
> 
> As mentioned, it distorts the market.
> 
> ...



In australia we rely on the private sector to provide housing to the rental market, with that supply provided by the private sector there would be less supply to meet the demand and rents would be higher.

All negative gearing does is allow people that use debt to claim any cashflow losses against income from other sources. 

With out negative gearing, you would restrict property investment to richer folks, and limit small investors opportunity to participate.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> In australia we rely on the private sector to provide housing to the rental market, with that supply provided by the private sector there would be less supply to meet the demand and rents would be higher.
> 
> All negative gearing does is allow people that use debt to claim any cashflow losses against income from other sources.
> 
> With out negative gearing, you would restrict property investment to richer folks, and limit small investors opportunity to participate.



Small investors can invest in the share market, that's what its for and it doesn't deprive others of the opportunity to own their own homes


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## PZ99 (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Why single out the housing market though? At the end of the day investors putting money into the housing market does increase supply of rentals, which currently there is a shortage of.
> 
> If they want to sign up to lose money by renting out properties for less than their cost of capital and hence subsidising renters let them, if they are claiming 30cents on the $1 they lost it’s a good deal for the government and the rental market.



Investing in the housing market only increases supply of rentals if the houses are actually rented out. Many are not. They are simply kept vacant which merely aggravates the shortage.

It's not a good deal for the taxpayer to sponsor someone else's losses encouraged by a tax system that favours investment with dubious security.

If you want to help renters, dump the NG and use that revenue for income tax relief.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Investing in the housing market only increases supply of rentals if the houses are actually rented out. Many are not. They are simply kept vacant which merely aggravates the shortage.
> 
> It's not a good deal for the taxpayer to sponsor someone else's losses encouraged by a tax system that favours investment with dubious security.
> 
> If you want to help renters, dump the NG and use that revenue for income tax relief.



I doubt a material portion of homes are purposefully kept vacant. But, If It's kept vacant it doesn't qualify for the Negative gearing deductions, Interest on vacant properties that don't produce income is capitalised and deducted from any future capital gain.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Small investors can invest in the share market, that's what its for and it doesn't deprive others of the opportunity to own their own homes



who are we to tell people which sectors they can invest in, thats for the market to decide.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> who are we to tell people which sectors they can invest in, thats for the market to decide.




The taxpayers forgo revenue for negative gearing so they should have a say in where that revenue goes.


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## PZ99 (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I doubt a material portion of homes are purposefully kept vacant. But, If It's kept vacant it doesn't qualify for the Negative gearing deductions, Interest on vacant properties that don't produce income is capitalised and deducted from any future capital gain.



You might like to research that one mate. Last time I checked there were a million homes sitting empty.

Why? Because the current distortions driven by NG are causing landlords to enjoy the higher / faster cap gains as opposed to servicing debt by renting out the properties.


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## PZ99 (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The taxpayers forgo revenue for negative gearing so they should have a say in where that revenue goes.



Agreed. The current tax system is a burden on renters who are forced to work longer/harder to pay such exorbitant rents and this is the bracket that needs tax relief from winding back pointless welfare such as NG given that it's their high taxes that are paying for it.

Of course, none of this will happen... The current PM and opposition leader have something like 10 properties each. Which is kinda strange considering the PM is banning ministers from owning shares 









						Ministers forced to sell shares under new code of conduct
					

The new code also bans the use of blind trusts by government ministers.  Under a new code of conduct introduced by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, federal government ministers will be forced to dives




					www.investordaily.com.au


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> You might like to research that one mate. Last time I checked there were a million homes sitting empty.
> 
> Why? Because the current distortions driven by NG are causing landlords to enjoy the higher / faster cap gains as opposed to servicing debt by renting out the properties.



where did you find that figure?


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## PZ99 (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> where did you find that figure?











						A million homes sitting empty, ABS Census reveals
					

AUSTRALIA is currently facing a housing crisis but there are one million vacant homes across the country, representing just over 10% of the total number of home




					www.australianpropertyjournal.com.au


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The taxpayers forgo revenue for negative gearing so they should have a say in where that revenue goes.



Taxpayers aren't forgoing any revenue, the tax office is only entitled to tax based on the investors profits, and the losses the investors are taking are real genuine losses, and the revenue from the interest payments which generate the loss flow through to the banking industry, where they increase banks profits, pay staff wages and fund dividend payments to all of which generate taxes too.

------------------
But as I said its not something I do, my real estate investments are all positively geared (zero net debt actually), so its not something I want to waste to much time discussing, however they was about a 5 year period from 2001-2006 where I had two negatively geared properties, thats just how it works when you are starting out. Most new property investors will be negatively gear for the first few years until inflation catches up or they can pay down their debt. Absolutely nothing wrong with that in my opinion.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> A million homes sitting empty, ABS Census reveals
> 
> 
> AUSTRALIA is currently facing a housing crisis but there are one million vacant homes across the country, representing just over 10% of the total number of home
> ...



That figure includes houses that are vacant due to being finished but awaiting sale or settlement, renovated, knocked down rebuilt, deceased estates, occupants in hospital or aged care, properties in-between tenants, owned by someone that is working over seas, condemned and many other reasons, it could also include houses where people just didn't fill out the census form

you can expect up to 3% of properties to be vacant on any given day just due to being in between tenants or owners etc, that doesn't mean they were vacant all year, as I said the other 7% (if that is even accurate) can have valid reasons too. What is important to your argument is not the total that are vacant, but the total that are purposefully left vacant due to negative gearing, which as I said would be small, and if they are purposefully being left vacant they don't qualify for negative gearing anyway.

One of my own rental properties was vacant on census night due to a large renovation I was doing, the units are now fully tenanted, generating taxable income, that more than offsets the couple of years of negative gearing I claimed on it in the early 2000's


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## PZ99 (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That figure includes houses that are vacant due to being finished but awaiting sale or settlement, renovated, knocked down rebuilt, deceased estates, occupants in hospital or aged care, properties in-between tenants, owned by someone that is working over seas, condemned and many other reasons, it could also include houses where people just didn't fill out the census form
> 
> you can expect up to 3% of properties to be vacant on any given day just due to being in between tenants or owners etc, that doesn't mean they were vacant all year.
> 
> ...




Whether they qualify or not isn't the point. The point is the market distortions driven by NG are giving faster realised gains at the expense of renters and it's not something I want my taxes supporting.

There's been plenty of articles detailing houses / units purposefully being left vacant. If you're interested in this subject, you'll find them. They are there.

I'm not going to look for them simply because there's no way anyone is going to convince me that NG is a good thing for the housing market.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Whether they qualify or not isn't the point. The point is the market distortions driven by NG are giving faster realised gains at the expense of renters and it's not something I want my taxes supporting.



good thing your taxes don't support it then, because negative gearing only allows people to deduct the loss from their own income sources, not yours.

I have no doubt some silly people leave their apartments empty, but these people are not allowed to claim negative gearing deductions, and as I said they would be a small subset.


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## PZ99 (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> good thing your taxes don't support it then, because negative gearing only allows people to deduct the loss from their own income sources.
> 
> I have no doubt some silly people leave their apartments empty, but these people are not allowed to claim negative gearing deductions, and as I said they would be a small subset.



My taxes do support it. If they didn't, there would be no "deductions"

See my previous post on your second sentence. Just because people can't claim NG doesn't mean they don't benefit from the cap gains in a market distorted by NG.


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## InsvestoBoy (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure what you mean by primary and secondary investments.



Primary investments are new money entering a venture, starting a new business, funding an IPO or capital raise, etc.

Secondary investments are the transfer of existing assets from one entity to another, especially in heavily geared markets marginal asset pricing is usually determined by procyclical debt and less by rational investment valuation.



Value Collector said:


> But, let’s say I some one has a some CBA, BHP, FMG and WOW shares and they are all paying a decent dividend.
> 
> But then that person decides to buy into a 5th company let’s say CSL using some debt. Are you saying  if that leveraged CSL investment generates a negative cashflow that the investor shouldn’t be able to deduct this loss from the dividends of the other companies or other investment income?



It doesn't have to be *that* granular, many countries have solved this problem by grouping income, see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_gearing#Netherlands or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_gearing#United_Kingdom .



Value Collector said:


> I mean we can claim other losses from other profits all the time, I if he sold the CSL shares for a loss no one would have a problem with him deducting his CSL loss from his BHP capital gain.



We are not talking about capital gains we are talking about the tax treatment of geared investments, hopefully through the lens of incentives the Government wishes to encourage.



Value Collector said:


> It makes perfect sense to me that an investor should only pay tax on his total net profit or loss over all, and any losses should be deducted from any profits to arrive at a net taxable income.



From a balance sheet perspective of a single individual or entity it makes sense, if you zoom out economically, hopefully it's obvious that it has negative externalities.



Value Collector said:


> I mean how far does it go, if I lose money on CSL do I have to actually go and try to make that capital gain back on CSL to be able to claim the loss?



Again, we are not talking about capital gains tax.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> We are not talking about capital gains we are talking about the tax treatment of geared investments, hopefully through the lens of incentives the Government wishes to encourage.



I am talking about cashflow losses.

eg, Would you be ok with some deducting the negative cashflow from property A, from the positive cashflow they earn on property B.

If you are ok with negative cashflows from one property, offsetting the positive cashflows from another property, why not also let them offset  some of their positive dividend income they get from some BHP shares they own?
if you are ok with property losses offsetting income from dividends etc, why not their income from Uber driving ?

To me it just makes sense to deduct all expenses/losses from all income/profits and pay tax on your net income, regardless of the source of that income.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> To me it just makes sense to deduct all expenses/losses from all income/profits and pay tax on your net income, regardless of the source of that income.




Not really, it just allows good investments to subsidise bad ones from a tax point of view.

If people want to engage in loss making investments, the other taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for it.


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## InsvestoBoy (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am talking about cashflow losses.



You were literally quoted just a few seconds ago talking about capital gains.



Value Collector said:


> eg, Would you be ok with some deducting the negative cashflow from property A, from the positive cashflow they earn on property B.



Let's start with that.



Value Collector said:


> If you are ok with negative cashflows from one property, offsetting the positive cashflows from another property, why not also let them offset  some of their positive dividend income they get from some BHP shares they own?
> if you are ok with property losses offsetting income from dividends etc, why not their income from Uber driving ?



Because, as I said already, it should be obvious that it has negative externalities for large portions of the economy.

It forces the economy straight into what Hyman Minsky coined as the "money manager" phase of capitalism. It encourages procyclical behaviour in the property market. It incents wealth transfer over primary investment. On and on.



Value Collector said:


> To me it just makes sense to deduct all expenses/losses from all income/profits and pay tax on your net income, regardless of the source of that income.



Please take a moment to consider that your views may be influenced by your position in life and that it's possible what makes sense to you the individual may not make sense for the country as a whole.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not really, it just allows good investments to subsidise bad ones from a tax point of view.



Its common in business for new ventures to lose money in the early years, and its extremely common for some one just starting out in property that needs a high LVR loan to take a cashflow loss in the early years until they can pay down they loan enough to reduce the interest rate.

As I mentioned above its not tax payers funding the loss, the loss is paid for out of that persons other income, it just reduces that persons taxable in come, just like all business expenses do.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> As I mentioned above its not tax payers funding the loss, the loss is paid for out of that persons other income, it just reduces that persons taxable in come, just like all business expenses do.



Sorry, but if a persons taxable income is reduced, they pay less tax which is a loss of revenue for the government which other taxpayers have to pay for.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> 1. You were literally quoted just a few seconds ago talking about capital gains.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I was talking about mainly cashflow, but used an extended example of capital gains.

2. I don't think there is obvious negative effects, because the private sector investing in property does help bring new supply to market, and negative gearing does encourage more investment.

3. I don't use negative gearing and never plan to, although I can see how it is a fair way to treat  Investors who are needing to use higher LVRs, as I used it back way I had a smaller capital base. I have been investing for 26 years, and understand why these sorts of rules exist.
there are some things that tend to produce an emotional reaction in some people because they see them are a root, but they are just common sense things, one of them is negative gearing two others are franking credits and capital gains tax discounts.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> 2. I don't think there is obvious negative effects, because the private sector investing in property does help bring new supply to market, and negative gearing does encourage more investment.




The majority of negative geared property is already existing dwellings.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry, but if a persons taxable income is reduced, they pay less tax which is a loss of revenue for the government which other taxpayers have to pay for.



If a workman needs to buy a new pair of boots to work in, it reduces her taxable income by the cost of the boots, but it would be stupid to say the tax payers are funding the Workmans boots, the government were never ever entitled to tax on the portion of revenue used to buy the boots in the first place, they government is only entitled to tax on the profits remaining after all business expenses are paid.

Businesses generate revenue, from this they deduct their expenses and pay tax on their profit, if one project generates a loss it is deducted from the profit generated from another project, that is not the same as the government paying for it.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The majority of negative geared property is already existing dwellings.



that doesn't alter the outcome, thats like saying the majority of share purchases are exisiting shares, but we know that a healthy share market encourages more companies and new share issues to be listed.

Developers will not be encourage to bring new developments to market unless they know their is a healthy secondary market to sell into.

Also exisiting houses still require capital, I have just spend $200,000 renovating some units I own, and am working on a house now, I wouldn't do that unless I was confident I could sell the properties to some one.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> If a workman needs to buy a new pair of boots to work in, it reduces her taxable income by the cost of the boots, but it would be stupid to say the tax payers are funding the Workmans boots, the government were never ever entitled to tax on the portion of revenue used to buy the boots in the first place, they government is only entitled to tax on the profits remaining after all business expenses are paid.
> 
> Businesses generate revenue, from this they deduct their expenses and pay tax on their profit, if one project generates a loss it is deducted from the profit generated from another project, that is not the same as the government paying for it.




So if the workman wears his boots to the pub after work, should the deduction be reduced ?


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Businesses generate revenue, from this they deduct their expenses and pay tax on their profit, if one project generates a loss it is deducted from the profit generated from another project, that is not the same as the government paying for it.




It comes down to my earlier point that housing is for people to live in and own, not for investors to reduce their tax.

The market has obviously failed if we have the shortage of affordable housing that we currently have. The system is broken.


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## InsvestoBoy (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> 2. I don't think there is obvious negative effects, because the private sector investing in property does help bring new supply to market, and negative gearing does encourage more investment.



Like I said already, my proposal is specifically to allow negative gearing for primary investment.

Secondary investment, by definition, does not bring new supply or encourage investment. In aggregate it is wealth transfer from some economic actors to others. Those actors should not be incentivised to invest on the basis which they currently are.



Value Collector said:


> there are some things that tend to produce an emotional reaction in some people because they see them are a root, but they are just common sense things, one of them is negative gearing two others are franking credits and capital gains tax discounts.




Do I sound emotional about it?

CGT discount is a great example of Government incentivising a particular behaviour that we desire as a society over another behaviour that we don't. Let's take a leaf from the CGT discount book.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So if the workman wears his boots to the pub after work, should the deduction be reduced ?



No, but the boots he wears only to the pub obviously are not a tax deduction.

A small percentage of personal use is fine, its not going to alter anything big, we all know the 8 hours pouring concrete would have created more wear than the walk across the carpark into the pub.


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## sptrawler (31 August 2022)

My thoughts on negative gearing are, the tax break on a loss making investment is given, on the expectation that at some stage that investment will become positively geared and make a profit.
If there is no expectation that the investment will ever become positive geared, it is a speculative investment for the sole purpose of reducing tax, therefore the losses shouldn't be allowed to be offset against normal income, they should have to be carried forward and only be able to be used to offset any capital gain when the investment is sold.

It is somewhat like someone buying 50 acres of land and claiming the losses as a primary producer because they have half a dozen chooks on it, that isn't allowed the property has to be a viable business venture.

If someone buys a house for $5m in Sydney and rents it out for $20k a year making a loss, there is no likelyhood that property will ever make a taxable profit, therefore it is speculative and the losses should only be able to be offset against a capital gain.

It would be quite easy for the ATO to just say negative gearing can only be applied for x years.
Anyway better brains than ours will be looking at it, that's for sure.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> Secondary investment, by definition, does not bring new supply or encourage investment.



I don't agree with that at all, every one that buys a "Primary" development only does so because they hope to sell it into the secondary market at some stage, and as I said large renovations are just as important as new developments, unless you want to encourage slum lords.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My thoughts on negative gearing are, the tax break on a loss making investment is given, on the expectation that at some stage that investment will become positively geared and make a profit.
> If there is no expectation that the investment will ever become positive geared, it is a speculative investment for the sole purpose of reducing tax, therefore the losses shouldn't be allowed to be offset against normal income, they should have to be carried forward and only be able to be used to offset any capital gain when the investment is sold.
> 
> It is somewhat like someone buying 50 acres of land and claiming the losses as a primary producer because they have half a dozen chooks on it, that isn't allowed the property has to be a viable business venture.
> ...



I agree with you, maybe one thing to change is to limit interest only loans (they may have already done that, I know cba does), paying principle and interest means that eventually the loan interest will be reduced and it will become positive geared automatically, especially combined with  inflation raising rents over time


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## sptrawler (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I agree with you, maybe one thing to change is to limit interest only loans, paying principle and interest natural means that eventually the loan interest will be reduced and it will become positive geared automatically, especially combined with  inflation raising rents over time



It isn't a difficult problem to solve, the real issue is do politicians want to solve negative gearing, or use negative gearing IMO.

It would be easy to say only $x can be negatively geared, only house loans up to $x can be geared.


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## InsvestoBoy (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don't agree with that at all, every one that buys a "Primary" development only does so because they hope to sell it into the secondary market at some stage,




One would hope that people are either buying the property as a domicile or if they are an investor, because it is a good investment in it's own right.

Investors should be free to sell their property in the secondary market to participants who are bidding on the basis of the investment value of the property in it's own right.



Value Collector said:


> and as I said large renovations are just as important as new developments, unless you want to encourage slum lords.




Renovations are obviously a primary investment and nonetheless completely unrelated to the proposal I am making.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It isn't a difficult problem to solve, the real issue is do politicians want to solve negative gearing, or use negative gearing IMO.
> 
> It would be easy to say only $x can be negatively geared, only house loans up to $x can be geared.



I wouldn’t be comfortable putting a price on it, I mean if some one wants to borrow $10,000,000 to buy a block of flats knowing it’s going to deliver a negative return for the first few years, I don’t have a problem with that, because they can borrow $10,000,000 for shares or any other business venture and negative gear it in the same way.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It isn't a difficult problem to solve, the real issue is do politicians want to solve negative gearing, or use negative gearing IMO.
> 
> It would be easy to say only $x can be negatively geared, only house loans up to $x can be geared.




Well, as I said before, limit NG to one property per taxpayer . If people want a nest egg for their retirement, fine, if they want to turn it into a business then they should pay for it themselves.

And the CGT discount should be eliminated too.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> 1, One would hope that people are either buying the property as a domicile or if they are an investor, because it is a good investment in it's own right.
> 
> 2, Investors should be free to sell their property in the secondary market to participants who are bidding on the basis of the investment value of the property in it's own right.



1, Just because something produces a negative leveraged cashflow for a period of time doesn't mean its a bad investment, I mean look at Tesla or many other things. Also it can be just a personal decision for an investor to take a negative cashflow for a period of time until they can pay their loan down to the point it becomes positive cashflow.

2, they are free to do that, but some of them will need to use debt for a period of time, and this may produce a negative cashflow.

If you want to lock out a bunch of small investors from the property market and leave the market to cashed up investors like Harry Triguboff by all means, but there will be less stock on the market for sure.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> If people want a nest egg for their retirement, fine, if they want to turn it into a business then they should pay for it themselves.



As I explained, workman pay for their own boots, a tax deduction is not the same as getting something for free.

anyone this is getting circular, I have a list of jobs the wife needs me to do today and I am letting my self get distracted, so I will have to leave this topic for now.


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## InsvestoBoy (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> because they can borrow $10,000,000 for shares or any other business venture and negative gear it in the same way.




You have been investing for 26 years, you know as well as the next person that LVR, lending standards, margin requirements etc are all completely different for margin loans or business loans than investment property loans.

The Government also happens to tax business profit at a flat 30% rate.

I would accept this as an alternative, investment property can only be done by corporate entities with similar lending standards, gearing ratios, etc.



Value Collector said:


> If you want to lock out a bunch of small investors from the property market and leave the market to cashed up investors like Harry Triguboff by all means, but there will be less stock on the market for sure.




Bizarre statement considering many countries in the world don't have a tax code that allows income transfer like ours and yet still somehow small investors invest in the property market. Maybe it's magic.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> As I explained, workman pay for their own boots, a tax deduction is not the same as getting something for free.
> 
> anyone this is getting circular, I have a list of jobs the wife needs me to do today and I am letting my self get distracted, so I will have to leave this topic for now.




 I appreciate the fact that you don't use NG and your investments stand on their own, but the cumulative nationwide effects of NG are derogatory to the national interest imo.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> 1. You have been investing for 26 years, you know as well as the next person that LVR, lending standards, margin requirements etc are all completely different for margin loans or business loans than investment property loans.
> 
> 2. The Government also happens to tax business profit at a flat 30% rate.
> 
> ...



1. I know that I can borrow against my home and buy negatively geared shares, just like I can borrow against my home and buy a rental property. I can even borrow up to 80% of the value of my home, and use it to buy shares using a margin loan 70% gearing  so the end result is a 100% LVR share purchase, this would be available for negative gearing deductions if the income was less than the expense.

2. Yep, and it will tax my positive cashflow from real estate at 47%, what's your point?... by the way when those business profits are passed along to investors as dividends the tax is what ever that investors tax bracket is... so again what's your point.

3. yep, lets get all the mums and dads out the way to make the rich richer, I am leaning more to the rich side these days so you are helping me there, I don't think thats a good thing though.

4. they probably have many other different tax laws to that some how balance things out, a bit like some people say "But the USA don't have franking credits why do we need them" obviously they answer to that is that they limit taxation on dividends to 15% which serves basically the same effect.

As I said though Mrs VC is going to kill me is I don't get my chores done soon hahaha I have to stop letting this distract me


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I appreciate the fact that you don't use NG and your investments stand on their own, but the cumulative nationwide effects of NG are derogatory to the national interest imo.



We will have to agree to disagree on that.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> In australia we rely on the private sector to provide housing to the rental market, with that supply provided by the private sector there would be less supply to meet the demand and rents would be higher.




The demand for housing is so high that dwellings will be built even if there were no investors in the market.


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## Belli (31 August 2022)

It'll never happen but one method is to only allow any tax deductions against the property and not permit it to be offset against other income.

I place the blame (unfairly or not) on Sir Garfield Barwick.


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## sptrawler (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I appreciate the fact that you don't use NG and your investments stand on their own, but the cumulative nationwide effects of NG are derogatory to the national interest imo.



Again just in my opinion, but I think negative gearing property is a government initiative to save the Government having to supply social housing and I have already explained that I feel the Government should get back into building social housing.

The other problem negative gearing of residential property does is, it takes investment money from the productive side of the economy e.g startup businesses, capital raising, business expansion etc and deploys it into what is really a static asset which once it is built contributes very little to the economy.
If Sydney/Melbourne property wasn't so attractive as an investment, that money would be deployed into commercial ventures and buildings IMO.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The demand for housing is so high that dwellings will be built even if there were no investors in the market.



Have you seen the demand for rentals in some markets? I had 27 applications on one of my units I just renovated, I am not sure who you think is going to step up and provide the capital for building / renovating more rentals if new investment from investors was stopped, I know you will say you are happen for investors to be limited to new buildings, but buildings last for decades, we have to be able to sell them to other investors otherwise we won't want to invest the capital to begin with.

I can guarantee you I would not have invested all the money I did to renovate the units if I didn't think other investors would be there to buy it from me if I decide to sell, I would be forced to become a slum lord, holding the property and just taking out all the cash I could rather than putting more money in to improve it and stay in the business of offering quality living quarters.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Have you seen the demand for rentals in some markets? I had 27 applications on one of my units I just renovated, I am not sure who you think is going to step up and provide the capital for building / renovating more rentals if new investment from investors was stopped.




Glad you finished your chores haha.

The demand is for people to own their own homes. A great proportion of renters only rent because they are priced out of buying their own dwellings by investors. 

The industry works on demand, not who is demanding. If the demand is there, builders will build, it matters not to them whether the buyers are owner occupiers or investors.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> 1. Glad you finished your chores haha.
> 
> 2. The demand is for people to own their own homes. A great proportion of renters only rent because they are priced out of buying their own dwellings by investors.
> 
> 3. The industry works on demand, not who is demanding. If the demand is there, builders will build, it matters not to them whether the buyers are owner occupiers or investors.



1. not yet, half way I am a bit naughty today.

2. there will always be a decent chunk of the population that needs rental accomodation, eg people just moving out of home, people that don't want to own, people that move a lot for work, divorcees, people that would rather but money into their business or super than own, retired down sizers etc etc.

3. most of the groups I mentioned above are not capable of deploying capital to meet their own demand, so their demand will not increase supply unless enough investors can step in and provide the capital in return for regular rental payments, Its a bit like a plane load of travellers landing at an airport and wanting to travel some where buy car, there is demand for cars there but unless car rental companies pony up some capital to buy the cars and make them available to rent, the travellers vehicles demand will remain unmet.


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## sptrawler (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Have you seen the demand for rentals in some markets? I had 27 applications on one of my units I just renovated, I am not sure who you think is going to step up and provide the capital for building / renovating more rentals if new investment from investors was stopped, I know you will say you are happen for investors to be limited to new buildings, but buildings last for decades, we have to be able to sell them to other investors otherwise we won't want to invest the capital to begin with.
> 
> I can guarantee you I would not have invested all the money I did to renovate the units if I didn't think other investors would be there to buy it from me if I decide to sell, I would be forced to become a slum lord, holding the property and just taking out all the cash I could rather than putting more money in to improve it and stay in the business of offering quality living quarters.



I don't think negative gearing residential property should be stopped, but it should be limited, so that it focuses on the market where it is required, a friend of mine had $10m of rental properties negative geared. So paid zip tax.
Wait for the capital gain flip and upgrade your PPR, worked well for him, he now lives in the most exclusive suburb of Perth and still works for wages.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't think negative gearing residential property should be stopped, but it should be limited, so that it focuses on the market where it is required, a friend of mine had $10m of rental properties negative geared. So paid zip tax.
> Wait for the capital gain flip and upgrade your PPR, worked well for him, he now lives in the most exclusive suburb of Perth and still works for wages.



Sounds like a bit of speculator, he would have had to pay capital gains tax, and in the mean time was providing housing for less than the cost of capital.

I wouldn't have a problem with a rule designed to limit negative gearing of speculators, but its hard to design a rule like that that wouldn't also trap genuine investors.

If interest rates hit 9% again, Even Mum and Dads that bought property on Low 50% LVR's and are positive cashflow today could find them selves negatively geared for a while, I don't want them to be faced with a rule that restricts their ability to deduct those high interest rates, its enough pain for them to be hit with the genuine loss of negative cashflow by itself, they should be allowed to offset other income and only pay tax on their real net earnings.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> 3. most of the groups I mentioned above are not capable of deploying capital to meet their own demand, so their demand will not increase supply unless enough investors can step in and provide the capital in return for regular rental payments,




Well, given that investors are providing a social service for people not rich enough to raise their own capital, maybe rental properties should have rent caps on them so the lower earners aren't priced out of the market.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, given that investors are providing a social service for people not rich enough to raise their own capital, maybe rental properties should have rent caps on them so the lower earners aren't priced out of the market.



They could do that, but then that would either discourage investors investing at all, or severely limit the types of products investors can bring to the market.

For example imagine if there was a legal limit to the rental car companies could charge for car rentals, their range of vehicles would obviously become limited, their fleet would be age, and customers who honestly want better vehicles wouldn't be able to get what they want.

There are rent controlled apartments in New York City, and they are becoming the domain of the slum lords, because the cost of improvements has become prohibitive 

I for one added solar panels to the units I just renovated in the hope that it would be a win win for me and the tenant, eg slightly higher rent for me and a big reduction their power bills, but if there was rent controls I wouldn't have done that, I also added more fencing to give each unit a private back yard, installed air con and installation etc, I did all these things to provide a better product to market and in the hope that I will be rewarded by a fair rental return in compensation, but rent caps would mean these additional investments would become higher risk, so I wouldn't have done it.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> They could do that, but then that would either discourage investors investing at all, or severely limit the types of products investors can bring to the market.
> 
> For example imagine if there was a legal limit to the rental car companies could charge for car rentals, their range of vehicles would obviously become limited, their fleet would be age, and customers who honestly want better vehicles wouldn't be able to get what they want.
> 
> ...




Not all landlords would be as diligent as you.

I think a lot would just bump up the rents and not provide any of the improvements that you have, so renters lose both ways.


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## sptrawler (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not all landlords would be as diligent as you.
> 
> I think a lot would just bump up the rents and not provide any of the improvements that you have, so renters lose both ways.



Investors who rent to low income earners aren't there as a social service, they are there to make money, adding an improvement to the property is another item on the lease that the landlord has to repair.
There are good landlords, there are good tenants, usually the good landlords move up to a better standard of rental property and a good tenant usually leaves and purchases their own home.
That has been my experience, when I started out in investment properties it was with a two bedroom flat in a block of 50, then I bought a second. The tenants were terrible the wife and I cleaned them and painted them, they were spotless when rented, always a mess when the tenants left.
Flipped them and moved into houses on developable blocks, again a lot depended on the areas you purchased in, the better the area the better the tenant.
Gave up renting properties when I retired, way too much work, hassle and too time consuming, that's why the Government got out of social housing and would rather supply bond assistance and rent assistance, much easier than actually supplying social housing.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not all landlords would be as diligent as you.
> 
> I think a lot would just bump up the rents and not provide any of the improvements that you have, so renters lose both ways.




It’s a market though, the crappy properties will earn crappy rent, and attract crappy tenants with no other options.

With out the improvements I made I would definitely not have been able to charge the same rent I am currently getting, and I wouldn’t have attracted as many applications so would have had to accept a lower quality tenant. 

I was renting out the units before I renovated, the rent was lower, and the quality of the tenant was lower, so I made the business decision to allocate extra capital, bring a better product to market and hopefully earn a decent return on that additional capital over time, so far so good.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Investors who rent to low income earners aren't there as a social service, they are there to make money, adding an improvement to the property is another item on the lease that the landlord has to repair.
> There are good landlords, there are good tenants, usually the good landlords move up to a better standard of rental property and a good tenant usually leaves and purchases their own home.
> That has been my experience, when I started out in investment properties it was with a two bedroom flat in a block of 50, then I bought a second. The tenants were terrible the wife and I cleaned them and painted them, they were spotless when rented, always a mess when the tenants left.
> Flipped them and moved into houses on developable blocks, again a lot depended on the areas you purchased in, the better the area the better the tenant.
> Gave up renting properties when I retired, way too much work, hassle and too time consuming, that's why the Government got out of social housing and would rather supply bond assistance and rent assistance, much easier than actually supplying social housing.



Yep, it’s to much work for me to to bother scaling up my direct property portfolio, I am not buying anymore direct rental properties, so I am keeping the ones I have but definitely not adding any extra, it’s far easier to buy units in the listed or unlisted Charter Hall properties trust and just collect the distributions, the underlying commercial and industrial properties earn more rent and I don’t have to deal with them directly.

Anyone that says residential property land lords earn to much has probably never been one.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, it’s to much work for me to to bother scaling up my direct property portfolio, I am not buying anymore direct rental properties, so I am keeping the ones I have but definitely not adding any extra, it’s far easier to buy units in the listed or unlisted Charter Hall properties trust and just collect the distributions, the underlying commercial and industrial properties earn more rent and I don’t have to deal with them directly.
> 
> Anyone that says residential property land lords earn to much has probably never been one.



Have you been in the Air BnB market ?

Just interested in the benefits or otherwise compared to long term .leasing


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## Macquack (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, it’s to much work for me to to bother scaling up my direct property portfolio, I am not buying anymore direct rental properties, so I am keeping the ones I have but definitely not adding any extra, it’s far easier to buy units in the listed or unlisted Charter Hall properties trust and just collect the distributions, the underlying commercial and industrial properties earn more rent and I don’t have to deal with them directly.
> 
> Anyone that says residential property land lords earn to much has probably never been one.



So you do have a job, managing your investment properties.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

Macquack said:


> So you do have a job, managing your investment properties.



Well yep, I would say my job is managing my investments in general, and the investment property side of things is something that I don’t want to scale up any further than what I already have.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you been in the Air BnB market ?
> 
> Just interested in the benefits or otherwise compared to long term .leasing



No, I think that would be even more labour intensive.


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## wayneL (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, it’s to much work for me to to bother scaling up my direct property portfolio, I am not buying anymore direct rental properties, so I am keeping the ones I have but definitely not adding any extra, it’s far easier to buy units in the listed or unlisted Charter Hall properties trust and just collect the distributions, the underlying commercial and industrial properties earn more rent and I don’t have to deal with them directly.
> 
> Anyone that says residential property land lords earn to much has probably never been one.



Indeed. People find out the difference between theoretical gross income, real gross income, and nett income, the hard way.


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## Value Collector (31 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Indeed. People find out the difference between theoretical gross income, real gross income, and nett income, the hard way.



I recommend it as a side hustle if it’s hobby you think you might enjoy and if you have the right temperament for it, and some lazy capital you want to put some where, a rental property can teach you alot.

But, yeah there are easy ways to make money, that are scalable where increasing size doesn’t result in increasing headaches.


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## sptrawler (31 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I recommend it as a side hustle if it’s hobby you think you might enjoy and if you have the right temperament for it, and some lazy capital you want to put some where, a rental property can teach you alot.
> 
> But, yeah there are easy ways to make money, that are scalable where increasing size doesn’t result in increasing headaches.



It is a big subject and an interesting one that many could add content to, maybe @Joe Blow could move these last few posts to a new thread 'rental properties', as I can add about 30 years of experience to it.
But under Federal election it would be lost.


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## SirRumpole (1 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> No, I think that would be even more labour intensive.




Yes, but you could always hire someone to do the routine stuff.


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## Value Collector (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, given that investors are providing a social service for people not rich enough to raise their own capital, maybe rental properties should have rent caps on them so the lower earners aren't priced out of the market.



I found this short video that explains some of the pit falls that they have discovered in the US cities that brought in rent control.


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## SirRumpole (1 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I found this short video that explains some of the pit falls that they have discovered in the US cities that brought in rent control.





If I was a landlord subjected to rent control I might be tempted to sell my apartment or whatever to an owner occupier instead of putting up with the hassle.

Which should be the objective of measures like rent control, more home ownership.

So why do landlords still stay in the business of being landlords ? There must be something in it for them.


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## Value Collector (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> 1. If I was a landlord subjected to rent control I might be tempted to sell my apartment or whatever to an owner occupier instead of putting up with the hassle.
> 
> 2. Which should be the objective of measures like rent control, more home ownership.
> 
> 3. So why do landlords still stay in the business of being landlords ? There must be something in it for them.



1. Thats what ends up happening, working class neighbourhoods have all the rentals steadily disappear as they are sold to upper middle class, and the rental units are never replaced with new rental developments because no one wants to invest in them.

2. The objective should be affordable housing whether you are a renter or home owner, as I explained earlier there needs to be a large healthy supply of rentals, rental caps restricts that supply.

3. which land lords are you talking about? are you talking about the rent controlled areas of the USA? if a Land lord wants to get out of land lording they have to sell their property to another land lord, because they can't force tenants to move out. So they either wait for tenants to leave and the convert the unit into an owner occupier, or sell to a slum lord who is happy to collect the base rent and let the property crumble until the tenants leave or the building condemned.

Some land lords just end up setting the building on fire to claim insurance, and then sell the land to a developer.


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## PZ99 (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> If I was a landlord subjected to rent control I might be tempted to sell my apartment or whatever to an owner occupier instead of putting up with the hassle.
> 
> Which should be the objective of measures like rent control, more home ownership.
> 
> So why do landlords still stay in the business of being landlords ? There must be something in it for them.



I know a few who are into defense housing. I think some of those rents are controlled and thus that income is ultra low but the cap gains made up for it. 

Not sure how that would play out today though given the prices are coming down at the moment.


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## SirRumpole (1 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> 1. Thats what ends up happening, working class neighbourhoods have all the rentals steadily disappear as they are sold to upper middle class, and the rental units are never replaced with new rental developments because no one wants to invest in them.
> 
> 2. The objective should be affordable housing whether you are a renter or home owner, as I explained earlier there needs to be a large healthy supply of rentals, rental caps restricts that supply.
> 
> ...




I agree that there needs to be a supply of rentals, for people who can't afford their own homes or those who move around a lot and don't want to buy.

What the actual numbers are I don't really know.

Low income housing is best left to government in my opinion, even though they have pulled out of that market it's really their responsibility, because commercial landlords don't want to deal with low income people.

As for those who move around but are still earning a good living I would say the numbers are increasing in these days of higher workforce mobility so there is a demand.

But in my view the majority of home seekers are prospective owner occupiers who can't get a look in because currently the system is geared (pun intended) towards investors who are driving up prices because they are more cashed up than the average buyers.


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## Value Collector (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> 1. Low income housing is best left to government in my opinion, even though they have pulled out of that market it's really their responsibility, because commercial landlords don't want to deal with low income people.
> 
> 2. But in my view the majority of home seekers are prospective owner occupiers who can't get a look in because currently the system is geared (pun intended) towards investors who are driving up prices because they are more cashed up than the average buyers.



1. Business people will deal with anyone as long as their is a profit margin in it, So obviously they won't be able to supply product at less than the cost of production. If there is a need to supply housing to certain groups at  rate that is lower than the cost of production, then yes I agree that sub sector is best served by the government, but in all other classes having the private industry compete in the market is a good thing.

2, the fundamental flaw with what you are saying there is that investors that are providing rentals are some how depriving potential home owners.  if this were true then it would show up in the market as an over supply of rentals, which there currently isn't there is a massive under supply of rentals, in fact their is an under supply of housing in general for both renters and people that want to buy. The only answer is to increase the supply of new houses being built, for both owner occupiers and land lords to buy.

Of course if we kicked all the renters out into the street, we would free up some space for owner occupiers to buy, but that would be at the expense of the renter group that already don't have enough supply.

It's not a case of us already having the perfect amount of property but for some reason landlords own them all, other wise as I said their wouldn't be a rental crisis, all the renters would satisfied and you would just have people complaining that there are no houses to buy, but at the moment both renters and potential owners are struggling.


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