# How to short sell stocks in Australia?



## jempol (27 July 2007)

Which broker allow?
Any broker allow day trade in Australia  but open position with short first and close before the market close?
If so is it using like US rule the short can't lower than previous tick?
Forgive my ignorance and thanks in advance for any views.


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## sails (27 July 2007)

I don't know of any other brokers allowing short selling except this one which provides an alternative:
http://www.traderdealer.com.au/shorting/short_selling.php

I have never used their short selling facility, so don't know how well it works.  BTW, they do explain the uptick rule on their site.

Cheers


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## Adventure Always (31 July 2007)

Have alook at Macquarie Prime, they have redefined margin lending to CFD rates, and also do short stocks.

Pete


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## Damuzzdu (31 July 2007)

jempol said:


> Which broker allow?
> Any broker allow day trade in Australia  but open position with short first and close before the market close?
> If so is it using like US rule the short can't lower than previous tick?
> Forgive my ignorance and thanks in advance for any views.




jempol,

My broker (full service - Macquarie Private Wealth allows shorting. They book the stock and then put the sell order on market, and yes I've close out on the same day, by just buying at market)

ASX rules does not allow shorting on a down tick similiar to when US markets have "trading curbs" in place. Thus with us you can go short by standing in line on the sell side, but if the sale is a sell order at market, you have to wait until buy at market occurs before you short/sell at market (ie hit the buy side with yr sell order), thus you could be forced to wait for a number minutes waiting for the opportunity.

Trust this helps.
Cheers
Muzz


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## Steve-IB (8 August 2007)

jempol said:


> Which broker allow?
> Any broker allow day trade in Australia  but open position with short first and close before the market close?
> If so is it using like US rule the short can't lower than previous tick?
> Forgive my ignorance and thanks in advance for any views.




We have just added the availability to short.  Commissions are the same as going long (0.08%, $6 minimum).  

You can view an availability list here:
http://individuals.interactivebrokers.com/en/trading/shortableStocks.php?ib_entity=llc


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## juw177 (13 August 2007)

Steve-IB said:


> We have just added the availability to short.  Commissions are the same as going long (0.08%, $6 minimum).
> 
> You can view an availability list here:
> http://individuals.interactivebrokers.com/en/trading/shortableStocks.php?ib_entity=llc




Can you please explain specifically how do you short on IB?


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## Steve-IB (13 August 2007)

juw177 said:


> Can you please explain specifically how do you short on IB?




Just the same as placing any other order.   In this case, just place an order to sell a stock that you do not own.


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## juw177 (13 August 2007)

Steve-IB said:


> Just the same as placing any other order.   In this case, just place an order to sell a stock that you do not own.




Oh. Thanks Steve, didn't know it was that easy.


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## cutz (8 January 2009)

Hi Guy's,

I was just wanting a bit of clarification regarding the uptick rule, say the bid is 30.00 and the ask is 30.10 last sale is 30.10 if I place my sell order at 30.10 is this illegal, do I need to place my sell at 30.11 to satisfy the rule and hope the market moves up to meet me?

Also has the uptick rule been repealed in the states therefore short sell at market orders are allowed, I did a quick goggle and there heaps of articles stating that from a couple of years ago but I vaguely recall that this rule was reinstated recently?

Thanks in advance.


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## Naked shorts (8 January 2009)

cutz said:


> Hi Guy's,
> 
> I was just wanting a bit of clarification regarding the uptick rule, say the bid is 30.00 and the ask is 30.10 last sale is 30.10 if I place my sell order at 30.10 is this illegal, do I need to place my sell at 30.11 to satisfy the rule and hope the market moves up to meet me?




I dont think you should. as long the last move it made was up...you can short.


Only 2 1/2 weeks until the short selling ban on financials is lifted
https://www.asxonline.com/intradoc-...vices/documents/communications/asx_022394.pdf


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## daveymoo (11 January 2009)

Ok, i've been looking around the net for a while and i can't seem to find a clear answer regarding short selling aussie stocks.

I understand how to "go short" using cfd's.  I have also read briefly about options.  
Is there any online brokers around(and in pref. in Oz) or any way to just short sell an aussie stock?

Or are cfds and options the only way to go short.  

Basically i want to take up some short positions without the margin.... It must be possible?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Dave


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## CamKawa (21 January 2009)

daveymoo said:


> I understand how to "go short" using cfd's. I have also read briefly about options.
> Is there any online brokers around(and in pref. in Oz) or any way to just short sell an aussie stock?



You could go short with IB but as they say on their web site they don't have any stock to go short with which is a bit crap  In fact the whole of Asia and most of Europe is sold out. 

The other kinda option is MQ Prime but when I looked into it they aren't entirely up front with regards to either fees, using words like "starting from X.XX%" They are also a bank and you may find they offer they kind of customer service akin to being in a dominant market position with the government in your pocket.




daveymoo said:


> Or are cfds and options the only way to go short.



With CFD's managing risk maybe difficult and the interest charged maybe high. Options I believe are better more flexible option but they are a complex product to trade. Also there's f'all trading in the ASX options market so you may find heading to the US better. In fact if you want to go short with either stocks or options heading to the US maybe better all round and just forget about the ASX. FYI the US market closes at 8:00am Mel/Sydney time.


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## CamKawa (21 January 2009)

CamKawa said:


> You could go short with IB but as they say on their web site they don't have any stock to go short with which is a bit crap  In fact the whole of Asia and most of Europe is sold out.



Which might be sign that it's time to go long. lol


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## knocker (21 January 2009)

CamKawa said:


> Which might be sign that it's time to go long. lol




How about it is time for all the self proclaimed market gurus to eat dirt lol


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## CamKawa (21 January 2009)

knocker said:


> How about it is time for all the self proclaimed market gurus to eat dirt lol



WTF is that suppose to mean?


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## daveymoo (25 January 2009)

Cheers Cam.  I have looked into MQ Prime.  Seems like a good option.  I like the fact that you can trade shares and Cfds on one platform.  
Cheaper than Etrade whom i'm currntly with.  I don't understand how etrade charge monthly fee of $80(with no trades) and MQ Prime is free.


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## inenigma (26 January 2009)

I like the $6 minimum fee of IB.  It beats the cr@p out of either etrade or BellDirect who I'm currently with.  Think I just might switch.


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## apra143 (26 January 2009)

inenigma said:


> I like the $6 minimum fee of IB.  It beats the cr@p out of either etrade or BellDirect who I'm currently with.  Think I just might switch.




Just be aware of the required minimums: http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/accounts/fees/minimumDeposits.php?ib_entity=llc


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## GFD (3 July 2016)

Is anyone short selling Australian shares directly, and who are the brokers offering this service in the market? CFDs, ETOs and other leveraged products are not of interest to me.

Macquarie Prime has high fee's at 2%, plus stock lending charge and other fees per trade which add to a handsome sum, particularly for retail traders with say $10K per position. Of concern is their policy that their margins vary minute by minute and there is a risk they will close your position for early re-delivery at anytime, so you have to keep a buffer of cash in the trading account.
http://www.macquarie.com/au/advisers/solutions/online-trading/macquarie-prime

There are no shares available to short with Macquarie at the moment.
https://www.macquarie.com.au/emgonline/portal/web/guest/marginrates

IB has no stocks available to short from their list at present. Haven't checked the fees yet.
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=14527

I am not endorsing these sites above or their content.


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## skyQuake (3 July 2016)

CFD providers are a pretty good bet - IG Markets, CMC have fairly large borrow lists and are way cheaper than macq


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## GFD (3 July 2016)

Can't deny the popularity of CFDs in the Aussie market. 

Am surprised only Macquarie and IB offer short sales of actual shares on the ASX. Does anyone use these services or similar?

Regarding CFDs my main concerns are:
1) Dealing with a market maker not the market itself, which presents additional liquidity risk
2) The prices quoted are not necessarily the same as the market, which presents an additional spread cost with no transparency
3) Data for the CFD transactions and their price movements are not published, so technical analysis cannot be applied directly

While I am still researching CFDs, my gut feel thus far suggests it is more like gambling where the house always wins...

This article just rings alarm bells for me:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...g/news-story/11477764f1f5d74f49c9d89d604dfb5e

Have these issues been dealt with, or is the continued growth of CFDs popularity some wider acceptance of the additional risks in this low growth environment?


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## skyQuake (3 July 2016)

GFD said:


> Can't deny the popularity of CFDs in the Aussie market.
> 
> Am surprised only Macquarie and IB offer short sales of actual shares on the ASX. Does anyone use these services or similar?
> 
> ...




OTC CFDs still have those problems. But everyone offers DMA cfds which is in line with the regular market. When you buy/sell you will see your order hit the real market. 

Only real problem now is segregation of client accounts. I think a MF Global can still happen, though far less likely. 
I do keep a price alert on IGG LN (parent company of IG Markets of which I am a client) so if that starts crashing then its time to liquidate and withdraw!


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## skc (4 July 2016)

Real short selling for retail punters is really not accessible in Australia. DMA CFDs are good enough alternatives.

Otherwise, join a prop shop or find a broker willing to let you trade a house account or something.


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