# Australian Politics General...



## MrBurns (27 June 2015)

I cant believe these bludgers have all gone on holiday for 6 weeks in the middle of the year :disgust:


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## galumay (27 June 2015)

*Re: Australian Politics General.....*



MrBurns said:


> I cant believe these bludgers have all gone on holiday for 6 weeks in the middle of the year :disgust:




Given what they achieve when they are at work we should see a significant improvement with them on holiday!


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## MrBurns (27 June 2015)

*Re: Australian Politics General.....*



galumay said:


> Given what they achieve when they are at work we should see a significant improvement with them on holiday!




They primarily use their time to play the political game to shore up their own position, they don't give a stuff about the public then p**s off for 6 weeks in winter at our expense.

I'm getting a bit sick of our system to be honest.


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## Tisme (20 July 2015)

*Re: Australian Politics General.....*



MrBurns said:


> They primarily use their time to play the political game to shore up their own position, they don't give a stuff about the public then p**s off for 6 weeks in winter at our expense.
> 
> I'm getting a bit sick of our system to be honest.




I got fed up the first time I went to vote and the score didn't fit with my punt....how could be people be so stupid!!!!

I placate myself that the other 15 million voters' lack a third eye, let alone the eye of providence that I uniquely possess. Of course I knew I was uniquely talented way back in my teens when strange things started up with my Jolly Roger when looking at girls in suspenders on buses and simultaneously realising how stupid parents are.

There are about 1 million voters out there that aren't registered and meta data hasn't found yet.....I wonder if they have a 6th chakra going on?


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## MrBurns (21 July 2015)

Why don't these revenue wasting politicians do something useful.

How many thousands of jobs have been lost by people like the banks, Telstra and others moving jobs offshore ?

Why don't they introduce a law that says you do business in Australia you employ Australians, yes profits might suffer but stiff cheese, they will more than survive and continue to do well.

Buy back the public utilities, Gas, Electricity and Water and employ people where needed not the bare minimum to increase profits.

Public transport same thing, bring back conductors, railway station attendants and so on.

Too hard I guess...........but if we had people of vision and ability in power perhaps not.


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## sptrawler (21 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Why don't these revenue wasting politicians do something useful.
> 
> How many thousands of jobs have been lost by people like the banks, Telstra and others moving jobs offshore ?
> 
> ...




Do you think it would be aussie's, that picked up the jobs?


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## sptrawler (21 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> I cant believe these bludgers have all gone on holiday for 6 weeks in the middle of the year :disgust:




It's a great gig, if you can score it.

Why do you think the millionaires, lawyers etc want to score it, just ask Bronwyn.:1zhelp:


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## MrBurns (21 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Do you think it would be aussie's, that picked up the jobs?




If the jobs were available locally it would make a big difference, give some people a purpose in life.


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## sptrawler (21 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> If the jobs were available locally it would make a big difference, give some people a purpose in life.




If that was the case, we wouldn't have had to bring in cleaners, on 457 visas.


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## MrBurns (21 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> If that was the case, we wouldn't have had to bring in cleaners, on 457 visas.




I don't know the full story but if people on welfare don't take available jobs they should be cut off.


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## sptrawler (21 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> I don't know the full story but if people on welfare don't take available jobs they should be cut off.




As if that would happen.

There is more chance of an increase in welfare payments, due to the increased cost of living in Sydney.


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## MrBurns (21 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> As if that would happen.
> 
> There is more chance of an increase in welfare payments, due to the increased cost of living in Sydney.




Yes and there's a gigantic flaw in the sytem right there. 
Politics rules, common sense doesn't get a look in.


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## trainspotter (21 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Yes and there's a gigantic flaw in the sytem right there.
> Politics rules, common sense doesn't get a look in.




You are echoing my thoughts adversary. Samuel Langhorne Clemens said this ...


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## sptrawler (21 July 2015)

Nothing much has changed.

Great post, trainspotter


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## Spongle007 (22 July 2015)

All I know is my disability pension is more than reasonable and university grants just add to the awesomeness. I have a social conscience though... I look forward to the day where I can make a pretty penny and give back to the system that's been so good to me. 

Other than that Abbott is a damn fool... worst PM in quite some time. Liberal can suck it. Bring back those good ole labor socialists comrade


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## MrBurns (22 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Nothing much has changed.
> 
> Great post, trainspotter




+1 sadly so true..............


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## noco (22 July 2015)

Spongle007 said:


> All I know is my disability pension is more than reasonable and university grants just add to the awesomeness. I have a social conscience though... I look forward to the day where I can make a pretty penny and give back to the system that's been so good to me.
> 
> Other than that Abbott is a damn fool... worst PM in quite some time. Liberal can suck it. Bring back those good ole labor socialists comrade




Yeah.....out with CAPITALISM and in with SOCIALISM.

HELLO Greece, we are coming to join you.


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## Spongle007 (22 July 2015)

Capitalist economy, socialist ethos... 

Socialist mind you... not communist (although Migs are pretty damn cool)


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## noco (22 July 2015)

Janet Albrechtsen, hits the nail on the head with Politicians expenses....This rot has got to stop with new rules and more accountability   applying to both sides of politics.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...451421539?sv=21d1300093a85f884c5b326b86489ac1


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## sydboy007 (22 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Why don't these revenue wasting politicians do something useful.
> 
> How many thousands of jobs have been lost by people like the banks, Telstra and others moving jobs offshore ?
> 
> ...




Was holidaying in Tokyo last month. Was flabbergasted by the high level of make work jobs.

At ssom busier intersections you'd have old people conducting the traffic, but but there's traffic lights doing it already. Some of the large department stores had staff conducting taxis and cars. Japan rail seems bloated with staff. 2 or 3 walking through trains on to top the driver. Someone on the platform  waving their baton as the gates open and closed for the bullet train.  So many old man standing at the entrance to construction sites it makes the CFMEU look like they under staff.

Best to have an efficient economy, and I do hope some companies decide that Australian staff give them a competitive advantage.

My employer was bought out a couple of years ago and new management off shored most of the staff in Melbourne, losing a decade or more  of experience. I know we lost a lot of corporate customers, but the bean counters must have decided the cost savings were worth the brand damage.


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## MrBurns (22 July 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Was holidaying in Tokyo last month. Was flabbergasted by the high level of make work jobs.
> Japan rail seems bloated with staff. 2 or 3 walking through trains on to top the driver. Someone on the platform  waving their baton as the gates open and closed for the bullet train.  So many old man standing at the entrance to construction sites it makes the CFMEU look like they under staff.
> Best to have an efficient economy, and I do hope some companies decide that Australian staff give them a competitive advantage.
> .




This was on Channel One last night, if you have the time you should watch it to see how downright slack Australia is by comparison......

[video=dailymotion;x12ww8o]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12ww8o_worlds-busiest-train-station-shinjuku-full_travel[/video]


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## Junior (22 July 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Was holidaying in Tokyo last month. Was flabbergasted by the high level of make work jobs.
> 
> At ssom busier intersections you'd have old people conducting the traffic, but but there's traffic lights doing it already. Some of the large department stores had staff conducting taxis and cars. Japan rail seems bloated with staff. 2 or 3 walking through trains on to top the driver. Someone on the platform  waving their baton as the gates open and closed for the bullet train.  So many old man standing at the entrance to construction sites it makes the CFMEU look like they under staff.
> 
> ...





They are obsessed with delivering high quality service and obsessed with presentation in Japan.

Walk into a department store and you'll hear all of the staff repeatedly yelling 'irashaimase!' (welcome) and smiling at you.

A lot of old people in very boring, repetitive jobs - working hard, long hours and immaculately presented.

Japan could learn from Australia as far as how to cut labour costs, but we could learn a lot from them when it comes to service, presentation and work ethic.


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## SirRumpole (22 July 2015)

I don't know about Tokyo, but I walked up to a counter in a once great Aussie Department store, and placed an item worth around $400 on a counter where there were 4 salesgirls having a natter. After being completely ignored for 5 minutes I walked out in disgust.

 That's why this country is going downhill fast.


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## noco (22 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> This was on Channel One last night, if you have the time you should watch it to see how downright slack Australia is by comparison......
> 
> [video=dailymotion;x12ww8o]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12ww8o_worlds-busiest-train-station-shinjuku-full_travel[/video]




Very interesting but lets get things into perspective.

Japan is about the size of New Zealand and has about 150 million people.

Australia has 23 million people and vastly different in area so I think you are being a bit harsh on Australia.


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## noco (22 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know about Tokyo, but I walked up to a counter in a once great Aussie Department store, and placed an item worth around $400 on a counter where there were 4 salesgirls having a natter. After being completely ignored for 5 minutes I walked out in disgust.
> 
> That's why this country is going downhill fast.




So Australia is going down hill fast because on a rare occasion 4 girls did not serve you.

It happened to me once so I went up to a girl and asked for the Department store number...I rang the number on my mobile in front of the girl and asked for the manager......The managed answered and I asked him was it possible to get some service in his store......I would hazard a guess that girl don't work in that store any more.


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## Tisme (22 July 2015)

noco said:


> Very interesting but lets get things into perspective.
> 
> Japan is about the size of New Zealand and has about 150 million people.
> 
> Australia has 23 million people and vastly different in area so I think you are being a bit harsh on Australia.




I spend a lot of time overseas and I haven't seen the side of Japan that others seem to have. Service, I have observed, is pretty much the same the world over, with the good ones and the bad ones. 

I wouldn't advocate adopting a fair amount of Japanese lifestyle and custom, but they do like a drink or two and the young people are obsessed with Kpop.


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## sptrawler (22 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know about Tokyo, but I walked up to a counter in a once great Aussie Department store, and placed an item worth around $400 on a counter where there were 4 salesgirls having a natter. After being completely ignored for 5 minutes I walked out in disgust.
> 
> That's why this country is going downhill fast.




Yup, we have become fat and lazy after 30 years`of cream.

Big Shock coming.IMO 

Unless someone can bring us to our senses, I don't think Bill and Tony, are the ones to do it.IMO


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## trainspotter (23 July 2015)

**BREAKING NEWS* *

Liberal, Labor and the Greens get together at CHOGM meeting to discuss future of Australian Politics ...


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## trainspotter (29 July 2015)

One day a florist went to a barber for a haircut. After the cut, he
asked about his bill, and the barber replied, 'I cannot accept money
from you, I'm doing community service this week.'
The florist was pleased and left the shop.
When the barber went to open his shop the next morning, there was a
'thank you' card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door.
Later, a cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill,

the barber again replied, 'I cannot accept money from you, I'm doing
community service this week.' The cop was happy and left the shop.
The next morning when the barber went to open up, there was a 'thank
you' card and a dozen doughnuts waiting for him at his door.
Then a Member of Parliament came in for a haircut, and when he went to
pay his bill, the barber again replied, 'I cannot accept money from
you. I'm doing community service this week.' The Member of Parliament
was very happy and left the shop.
The next morning, when the barber went to open up, there were a dozen
Members of Parliament lined up waiting for a free haircut.
And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between
the citizens of our country and the politicians who run it.


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## dutchie (2 August 2015)

Bronwyn Bishop has to go.

So should all the other politicians who have abused the obscenely lucrative entitlements system.

This would result in what was left of the parliament being able to hold it's sittings in one of the small offices in parliament house.

It would also be possible to lease/rent out the rest of parliament house for concerts, restaurants and backpacker accommodation.

 Win - Win for the Australian taxpayer!


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## MrBurns (2 August 2015)

Bron has to go she's in too deep to get out of this.....but I now have nothing but distain for a political system that is wholly engrossed in pulling the other side down....that's all they do all day.


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## sptrawler (5 August 2015)

Most of the 120 Australians, who have joined the Islamic State fighters, have had their welfare payments stopped.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscri...tory-fnpp4dl6-1227471735104&memtype=anonymous


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## Tisme (6 August 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Most of the 120 Australians, who have joined the Islamic State fighters, have had their welfare payments stopped.
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscri...tory-fnpp4dl6-1227471735104&memtype=anonymous




Can't see the article because of subscription issues, but hooray if that's the case. Do their families loose their benefit's too or do they get extra money for being deserted?


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## SirRumpole (6 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> Can't see the article because of subscription issues, but hooray if that's the case. Do their families loose their benefit's too or do they get extra money for being deserted?




Seems to be some correlation between sitting around on welfare doing nothing then deciding to go and kill people.

Perhaps if work for the dole was more strictly enforced, these people would not have the time to turn terrorist.


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## noco (6 August 2015)

Brothers....peace be with you  today for tomorrow will be different.......


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...471818677?sv=f3cfb71275f6d20828e4f9bd1ffa526a

*The major parties are now seeking a peace treaty as they admit the danger of escalating the attacks on each other when there are senior figures on both sides with expenses that breach the spirit of the system, if not the letter of the law.

A halt to family holidays such as Mr Burke’s trip to Uluru appears* imminent as all sides try to ease the public vitriol by stopping egregious expenses.*

Oh my Gawd.


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## SirRumpole (6 August 2015)

Looks like Burke has admitted that he went over the top with his family's trip to Uluru. Confession after the fact is a bit weak weak of course, but at least he isn't trying to defend the indefensible.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-...department-to-review-his-entitlements/6676672


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## Tisme (6 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Looks like Burke has admitted that he went over the top with his family's trip to Uluru. Confession after the fact is a bit weak weak of course, but at least he isn't trying to defend the indefensible.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-...department-to-review-his-entitlements/6676672




The haves and have nots Rumpole.


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## sptrawler (6 August 2015)

Apparently Burke has to pay back $90 of the $12,000, poor sod.


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## noco (6 August 2015)

When you come to think about it, politics has reached a very low standard and politicians in general are getting away with too much.

We need a system strong enough with a very strong leader with a 38 in his holster who is game enough to point between the eyes of a pollie who steps out of line.

I think a well trained Fabian could do the job with expertise.

*NOCO IS BACK*


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## Tisme (7 August 2015)

noco said:


> When you come to think about it, politics has reached a very low standard and politicians in general are getting away with too much.
> 
> We need a system strong enough with a very strong leader with a 38 in his holster who is game enough to point between the eyes of a pollie who steps out of line.
> 
> ...




I don't think we need to pull out the Fabian big guns yet Noco, although Canberra jingoism is not a soft target by any measure...... it's an almost secret society which works on the "nods as good as a wink" rule that transcends party politics.

Even Chris Pyne is defending Tony Burke,  albeit with a wet fish slap wrapped up in the spin.


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## Gringotts Bank (31 January 2016)

$9 million to refurbish the Lodge as follows.

http://www.finance.gov.au/property/property/the-lodge-refurbishment-works.html

Why do I get the feeling this could have been done for less than $3 million?  Have a look what was done.  New slate roof, re-wiring, re-plumbing, new heating/AC and a new outhouse.

Any builders on ASF?


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## Gringotts Bank (31 January 2016)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/pu...k=3d9940ef825cbfe37afcd30b50e1d54a-1454235098


* HOUSE REPLUMB $7650-$12,140

Includes hot and cold water replacement, gutters and downpipes (using a house with 70 linear metres of guttering and four downpipes as standard). Difficult access increases the cost.

* HOUSE REWIRE $5800-$8750

Based on a 150 sq m house with 15-18 power points, 15-18 light switches, new mains and box circuit breaker.

Price is based on reasonable access and will increase significantly depending on accessibility.

Let's *quadruple *these quotes because it's a large house and we want quality work.  *So we're up around $90k* *for re-plumbing and re-wiring.*

Asbestos removal isn't going to be a big cost.  

Smoke alarms cost very little to install.

A new *slate roof* would be expensive:  approx. $200 psm x 600 sqm = *$120,000*.  It's a 5 bedroom house, so it's big but not enormous.  

Ducted heating and A/C... no idea.  *$50k?*

New out building and toilet.  ?  *$300k?*

New commercial grade kitchen... ? let's say *$500k?*


Any comments?  *Where did the $9 mill go?*


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## SirRumpole (31 January 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Any comments?  *Where did the $9 mill go?*




All the public servants to look at the quotes, select the contractors, check the work, tell the contractors that they've stuffed up and to start again, approve the payments, write the cheques, audit the accounts .......


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## Gringotts Bank (31 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> All the public servants to look at the quotes, select the contractors, check the work, tell the contractors that they've stuffed up and to start again, approve the payments, write the cheques, audit the accounts .......




I just found this quote which might support what you say there.

"The original cost estimate of $3.19 million blew out to $9.4 million, *as government departments uncovered more and more problems requiring attention".*  ABC.net.au

Surely you tender out for a building supervisor to organize and oversee everything?  You could build 20 small homes for 9.4 mill.  Bloody outrageous.


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## luutzu (31 January 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/pu...k=3d9940ef825cbfe37afcd30b50e1d54a-1454235098
> 
> 
> * HOUSE REPLUMB $7650-$12,140
> ...




Maybe security. 

Scan every metre for bugs and spy stuff, as well as potential explosives.

That and our Mr Turnbull might like shades of pink while others prefer the classic green and yellow.


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## Tisme (1 February 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> $9 million to refurbish the Lodge as follows.
> 
> http://www.finance.gov.au/property/property/the-lodge-refurbishment-works.html
> 
> ...




Of course it's a gouge. 

$9 mil could have been a new build with plenty of mod cons.

As soon as consultants come into the eqtn you can write off 20% of the build cost to them as it escalates from the original 8%; and there is no need for them given contractors/subbies are generally licensed to design and construct.

Project Manager fees?
Consultant fees?
Interdepartmental charges?

Look behind most of the "experts" and you'll generally find someone who knows someone.


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## SirRumpole (1 February 2016)

Is Crown Casino just a money laundering operation ?

Malaysian black market bookmaker, Crown Casino high roller linked to match-fixing


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...ket-bookmakers-linked-to-match-fixing/7127246


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## SirRumpole (1 February 2016)

What we are not being told about political donations

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...itical-donations-data-doesn't-tell-us/7130126


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## dutchie (9 February 2016)

At the next election vote for the party that will make much needed cuts in spending.

Vote for the informal party.


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## dutchie (10 March 2016)

dutchie said:


> Vote for the informal party.




Except for this traitorous weasel.

New England, kick him to the kerb.


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## SirRumpole (10 March 2016)

dutchie said:


> Except for this traitorous weasel.
> 
> New England, kick him to the kerb.




He's got a good chance of knocking Barnaby off and I hope he does.

Barnaby is a blathering dill, Windsor at least can talk some sense.


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## Logique (10 March 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/pu...k=3d9940ef825cbfe37afcd30b50e1d54a-1454235098
> 
> 
> * HOUSE REPLUMB $7650-$12,140
> ...



A fair question I would have thought!


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## Logique (10 March 2016)

dutchie said:


> Except for this traitorous weasel.
> 
> New England, kick him to the kerb.



RDS - Relevance Deprivation Syndrome. 

The old campaigner is sniffing the balance of power again. 

UNE: "Hello Tony, New England University here. Barney's running for your old seat" 
TW:  "OMDB!"


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## Tisme (10 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> He's got a good chance of knocking Barnaby off and I hope he does.
> 
> Barnaby is a blathering dill, Windsor at least can talk some sense.




He (Barnaby) wasn't very comfortable talking to the cameras this morning..


Tony talking from Canberra wants to tackle the NBN (communication in bush and rural), education, climate change (e.g.land and water degradation) and defense spend. These are the tried and true four anxieties within communities and he's going to tap that fear.

Mr Smith goes to Washington


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## SirRumpole (10 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> He (Barnaby) wasn't very comfortable talking to the cameras this morning..
> 
> 
> Tony talking from Canberra wants to tackle the NBN (communication in bush and rural), education, climate change (e.g.land and water degradation) and defense spend. These are the tried and true four anxieties within communities and he's going to tap that fear.
> ...




Yes, tackling local issues will give him the best chance, as opposed to Barnaby who has got more important things on his mind, like remembering Gina Reinhart's birthday.


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## Tisme (10 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, tackling local issues will give him the best chance, as opposed to Barnaby who has got more important things on his mind, like remembering Gina Reinhart's birthday.




Helicopter trip or private jet?


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## SirRumpole (10 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Helicopter trip or private jet?




It wouldn't be a train.


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## SirRumpole (15 March 2016)

In the 2016 census, the names and addresses of everyone will be retained and of course are then prime real estate for hackers.

With all the information that is currently stored about us, is the census data  just another drop in the ocean, or a step too far ?


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-15/berg-census-privacy-threat/7244744


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## drsmith (17 March 2016)

Something for insomniacs.

The senate is sitting late tonight.

http://www.aph.gov.au/news_and_events/watch_parliament


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## SirRumpole (19 March 2016)

Excellent discussion on sustainable economic growth.


http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ow-much-economic-growth-is-just-right/7248760
--


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## Tisme (20 March 2016)

I used to have casual talks with Ian .... he's rural interests to the core. I believed him to be one of those guys who realised to make change for good, you have to be in the mix that has that power.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h/news-story/069fe81ecfcf76923a38d4d18d8139b8


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## Garpal Gumnut (20 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I used to have casual talks with Ian .... he's rural interests to the core. I believed him to be one of those guys who realised to make change for good, you have to be in the mix that has that power.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h/news-story/069fe81ecfcf76923a38d4d18d8139b8




Ian has a very good mind, and your comment about being in the power mix to effect change is apt. 

I believe the ALP Qld Govt. are looking at giving him such a position. Let's hope they do. 

gg


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## basilio (23 March 2016)

In the current mix of politicians in Canberra Nick Xenophon is probably one of the most respected by all sides of politics.  In particular he has taken the lead on pressuring Parliament to take a far closer look at politicians travel arrangements and "keep them honest".

This quote from an article on that subject highlights how focused he is on the topic.  I think He will be one of the pollies who improves his vote in the next election.




> Xenophon urged the committee to put in place a more transparent system, which would see monthly entitlements published and tougher penalties to force MPs to pay back twice the amount claimed for cases of abuse.http://www.theguardian.com/australi...or-penalties-in-politician-entitlement-scheme
> 
> He said if the review recommends a “bit of window dressing”, parliamentary entitlements would become an election issue.
> 
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/australi...or-penalties-in-politician-entitlement-scheme


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## SirRumpole (23 March 2016)

basilio said:


> In the current mix of politicians in Canberra Nick Xenophon is probably one of the most respected by all sides of politics.  In particular he has taken the lead on pressuring Parliament to take a far closer look at politicians travel arrangements and "keep them honest".
> 
> This quote from an article on that subject highlights how focused he is on the topic.  I think He will be one of the pollies who improves his vote in the next election.
> 
> ...




I'm only sorry I live in NSW so I can't vote for him.

I hope he gets a few more colleagues at the next election.


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## sptrawler (23 March 2016)

basilio said:


> In the current mix of politicians in Canberra Nick Xenophon is probably one of the most respected by all sides of politics.  In particular he has taken the lead on pressuring Parliament to take a far closer look at politicians travel arrangements and "keep them honest".
> 
> This quote from an article on that subject highlights how focused he is on the topic.  I think He will be one of the pollies who improves his vote in the next election.
> 
> ...




Yes, it will be interesting to see how he votes regarding negative gearing.
From a report I read he has 22 properties, there is nothing wrong with that, unless they have cause to influence his voting.
I find it very difficult these days, to believe politicians are there, other than for personal gain.
You never see them applying the rules enacted on the public, enacted on themselves.
It always seems to be about demanding public restraint and sacrifice, while they indulge in lavish excess, not much different to any third world nation I suppose.


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## banco (23 March 2016)

basilio said:


> In the current mix of politicians in Canberra Nick Xenophon is probably one of the most respected by all sides of politics.  In particular he has taken the lead on pressuring Parliament to take a far closer look at politicians travel arrangements and "keep them honest".
> 
> This quote from an article on that subject highlights how focused he is on the topic.  I think He will be one of the pollies who improves his vote in the next election.
> 
> ...




I find the focus on travel entitlements etc. a little myopic. Even if they were all defrauding the system its peanuts in the scheme of things.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2016)

banco said:


> I find the focus on travel entitlements etc. a little myopic. Even if they were all defrauding the system its peanuts in the scheme of things.




There is such a thing as setting an example.

Politicians can hardly criticise the excesses of coporations if they have their own snouts in the trough.


----------



## Tisme (24 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> There is such a thing as setting an example.
> 
> Politicians can hardly criticise the excesses of coporations if they have their own snouts in the trough.




Doesn't stop them criticising Union reps who pilfer members funds and act like it's coming out of Joe Citizen's pocket; then hypocritically set up an outrageously expensive taxpayer funded feeding trough for LNP legal eagles to feed off in the name of looking after union members monies who they overtly despise. 

Somehow the police force in this country can't operate without the expertise of the LNP showing them how to do their job ... selectively in time for electioneering of course. They must think we are stoopid or sumthink


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2016)

I don't see the Libs rushing to hold a Royal Commission into this :-


Liberal Party used 'charitable' Free Enterprise Foundation to disguise donations: NSW Electoral Commission

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-...d-political-donations-free-enterprise/7272446


----------



## Tisme (24 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't see the Libs rushing to hold a Royal Commission into this :-
> 
> 
> Liberal Party used 'charitable' Free Enterprise Foundation to disguise donations: NSW Electoral Commission
> ...




Typical of the ABC, dredging up stories that may well be true, but always around elections, leadership spills, etc ... oh yeah that really doesn't allow them any periods of disassociation does it.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Typical of the ABC, dredging up stories that may well be true, but always around elections, leadership spills, etc ... oh yeah that really doesn't allow them any periods of disassociation does it.




Absolutely shocking of the ABC, biting the hand that feeds it, even if the feed is a lot less than the last mob...


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> They must think we are stoopid or sumthink




You and I aren't , but most people ...?


----------



## Craton (24 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't see the Libs rushing to hold a Royal Commission into this :-
> 
> 
> Liberal Party used 'charitable' Free Enterprise Foundation to disguise donations: NSW Electoral Commission
> ...




Heh heh, I really dig a bit of muck-racking but will this mud stick to the Federal Libs?
Doubt it.

No, wait, um, well, ah, I mean... nah, can't happen coz there is simply NO corruption at any level of govt.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2016)

Craton said:


> Heh heh, I really dig a bit of muck-racking but will this mud stick to the Federal Libs?
> Doubt it.
> 
> No, wait, um, well, ah, I mean... nah, can't happen coz there is simply NO corruption at any level of govt.




Well Arfur Daley, oops Sinodinus was involved, so who knows ?


----------



## Logique (28 March 2016)

This is why Labor should stay the course on negative gearing (my bolds).



> *Thousands of empty homes adding to Sydney's housing crisis, experts say*
> March 28, 2016 - Leesha McKenny and Inga Ting
> 
> SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/thousands...xperts-say-20160323-gnpc52.html#ixzz4492i7NqE
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (28 March 2016)

Logique said:


> This is why Labor should stay the course on negative gearing (my bolds).




That's an interesting twist to the NG debate.

No wonder the Negative Gearing party (LNP) are so against Labor's reforms. All those properties that showed no income would be hit with a CGT.

It just shows what a farce the NG rort is.


----------



## MrBurns (28 March 2016)

Logique said:


> This is why Labor should stay the course on negative gearing (my bolds).




If the ALP play this card correctly at the election they might win.

Turnbull has no idea how the other half live and Bishop thinks she is a teenager the way she dresses and struts around.

As much as I think Shorten is a no hoper I'd have to back him on this one.


----------



## Tisme (29 March 2016)

MrBurns said:


> If the ALP play this card correctly at the election they might win.
> 
> Turnbull has no idea how the other half live and Bishop thinks she is a teenager the way she dresses and struts around.
> 
> As much as I think Shorten is a no hoper I'd have to back him on this one.




It troubles me to think that Labor may win..... I just can't stomach the concocted soup of social control they seem welded to. I can handle them spending money on nation building, their support for individual liberty (via unions if necessary) from exploitation by (areshole) business proprietors and other programmes that elevate the worth of each and everyone of us decent, as God intended people . But this is a party that used to share core values with other mainstream parties of the past, but now parades that underbelly as the way forward.... as key planks in fact.

It troubles me that to think that LNP may win .... another term of policy on the run looking for fear monger materials, gratuitous taglines, smoke screens, witch hunts and scripted cliches. Any notion that the current leader was not a puppet of his chief of staff or wife have been dispelled for all to see; a new skin in an adhoc political plaid jacket ... deadmen wear plaid. 

It scares me to think that the Greens outwitted the Senate and managed to change the voting system in their favour. It double scares me to think that they are an attractive goto party for Labor light voters. 

We really need a take no prisoners Paul Keating right now, popular/hated, but visionary, smart, articulate and vehemently Australian and a nation builder.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> We really need a take no prisoners Paul Keating right now, popular/hated, but visionary, smart, articulate and vehemently Australian and a nation builder.




I heard Dick Smith may run in Bronwyn Bishop's seat.



BTW I agree with your other comments. It's a matter of the least worst option.


----------



## MrBurns (29 March 2016)

I wonder if the ALP would change NG even if they did get in.

The smugness of Turnbull and Bishop turns me off but the stupidity and self interest of that union hack Shorten doesn't inspire me either.

The kids need to be given a chance in this world  - 



> Thousands of empty homes adding to Sydney's housing crisis, experts say
> March 28, 2016 - Leesha McKenny and Inga Ting
> 
> SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/thousands...xperts-say-20160323-gnpc52.html#ixzz4492i7NqE
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (29 March 2016)

MrBurns said:


> I wonder if the ALP would change NG even if they did get in.
> 
> The smugness of Turnbull and Bishop turns me off but the stupidity and self interest of that union hack Shorten doesn't inspire me either.
> 
> The kids need to be given a chance in this world  -




If Labor had no intention of changing NG it would have been best not to bring the subject up in the first place.

As it is, their plan does not disadvantage anyone currently claiming NG deductions, so in a sense it's the easy way out, but it's better than the no change policy of the LNP.


----------



## MrBurns (29 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If Labor had no intention of changing NG it would have been best not to bring the subject up in the first place.
> 
> As it is, their plan does not disadvantage anyone currently claiming NG deductions, so in a sense it's the easy way out, but it's better than the no change policy of the LNP.




I agree, but I think it would make a huge difference for the better, existing housing would be left alone and new dwellings would be taken up by investors, there's an oversupply there anyway.

Unfortunately politicians lie and my fear is that Shorten would find a way to reneg.


----------



## Tisme (29 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I heard Dick Smith may run in Bronwyn Bishop's seat.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW I agree with your other comments. It's a matter of the least worst option.




LIke most of our generation we were brought up to button our lips, don't say anything you didn't want the whole world to hear, go to school, get a job ... piss off and make you own way, die shortly after retiring, from a stroke/infarction/TB (mainstream cancer hadn't been invented then). 

We were expected to treat politics like a football comp that essentially comprised two teams who were essentially the same, but one wore red and was supposedly from the working class and the other wore blue who were also from the working class, but had it in their minds that their working class was a better political neighbourhood than the identical political neighbourhood on the other side of the street with even numbers on the letter box.

Any international visitor was asked how they were "finding" Oztraya and the only political correctness of its day was that we expected a polite, albeit strangled response back to reinforce our choice in being born here.

Life was sweet back in the day, when we craved attention, considered how Stevie Wright would teach the POMS about Friday nights and minds. We didn't have to worry about politics, because we all knew that was how it was ... and considered it all a fait accompli ... until a fella named Whitlam appeared as if an appariton that is. 

Old days we actually looked forward to wasting our Saturday wandering down to the polling booth and acting like we were important and about to ballot the winning ticket, such was our place in society, when infact we had a system where the incumbent govt had manufactured the gerrymandered boundaries over its otherwise do nothing faster than snails pace term in office.

Today the two majors are shadows of their former past and it makes me wonder how long before the domestic brainwashing we all enjoyed from the cradle finally disappears and we end up with a totally rudderless ship of instant gratification political policy.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Today the two majors are shadows of their former past and it makes me wonder how long before the domestic brainwashing we all enjoyed from the cradle finally disappears and we end up with a totally rudderless ship of instant gratification political policy.




We had that with Howard, politics was about being "relaxed and comfortable" cossetted with Family Tax benefits , superannuation tax concessions and negative gearing.

Open the doors to migrants, but don't build any infrastructure for them, don't bother with education because the mining boom will take care of that.

Vacuous politics.


----------



## ggkfc (29 March 2016)

and look at how we are now

everybody gambling on capital gains on property, plugging away at the NG


----------



## Tisme (29 March 2016)

ggkfc said:


> and look at how we are now
> 
> everybody gambling on capital gains on property, plugging away at the NG




Another Labor Party invention that oddly enough isn't being destroyed by govt ....yet


----------



## Tisme (1 April 2016)

A refresher in how much our politics has changed and the level of nothingness we have sunk to: (I find myself associating one of our members to this caller )


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> A refresher in how much our politics has changed and the level of nothingness we have sunk to: (I find myself associating one of our members to this caller )





Yep, clear and concise, no bs, call a spade a spade and fight for justice.

Is there another Keating out there ?


----------



## moXJO (1 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> A refresher in how much our politics has changed and the level of nothingness we have sunk to




Not a lot to do with politician's changing more to do with media and  "gotcha" questions.
Keating would be eaten alive by today's media and 24 hour news cycle if he carried on like that now. And anyone calling in with any hint of racist views would be blasted by the pc crowd.
That and the tard force of social media and their insta-whinges. You can't put a foot wrong without everyone tearing you down.


----------



## Tisme (2 April 2016)

moXJO said:


> Not a lot to do with politician's changing more to do with media and  "gotcha" questions.
> Keating would be eaten alive by today's media and 24 hour news cycle if he carried on like that now. And anyone calling in with any hint of racist views would be blasted by the pc crowd.
> That and the tard force of social media and their insta-whinges. You can't put a foot wrong without everyone tearing you down.




Not sure about that. He came out yesterday and eviscerated Turnbull at a book launch. His acid oneliner for the day:

“Malcolm Turnbull… fundamentally he is a cherry on top of a compost heap”

The media were too scared to attempt a carve up I would suspect


----------



## SirRumpole (2 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> “Malcolm Turnbull… fundamentally he is a cherry on top of a compost heap”




He's still got his mojo by the sound of it.


----------



## moXJO (2 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Not sure about that. He came out yesterday and eviscerated Turnbull at a book launch. His acid oneliner for the day:
> 
> “Malcolm Turnbull… fundamentally he is a cherry on top of a compost heap”
> 
> The media were too scared to attempt a carve up I would suspect




Former politician.


----------



## Tisme (3 April 2016)

moXJO said:


> Former politician.





Even so. The fifth estate is essentially a Liberal Party hack in this country, so for the voice of the enemy to be attacking one of the chosen ones and getting away with it is quite the achievement IMO.


----------



## moXJO (3 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Even so. The fifth estate is essentially a Liberal Party hack in this country, so for the voice of the enemy to be attacking one of the chosen ones and getting away with it is quite the achievement IMO.




Keating is respected in business circles. Nothing but a lobbyist now. 
But they run with any slur against a politician in an attempt to take them down.
Three PMs were given the shove after a media bloodletting frenzy. 

They even ran with a crack from keating about tbull.... which you just ran.


----------



## dutchie (4 April 2016)

Australia since 1996......

From 1996, nearly 12 years of stable and prosperous government.

2007 – someone kills Chinaman in Australia

2007 – Kevin Rudd  (dud) becomes PM

2010 -  Gillard (dud) stabs Rudd in back to become PM

2013 – Kevin Rudd (still a dud) stabs Gillard in back to become PM

2013 – Tony Abbott (dud) becomes PM

2015 – Malcolm Turnbull (dud) stabs Abbott in back to become PM  

2016 – Person who killed Chinaman still at large (has a lot to answer to)

Folks do you see a pattern here?

_Future ------>   2017 – Scott Morrison stabs Turnbull in back to become PM_


----------



## Logique (6 April 2016)

Senators Lleyonhelm, Lazarus and Xylophone at the Press Club today. Not a bad group.    

Lazarus in particular impresses me. He's a straight shooter, and he sure has Malcolm Turnbull's number. 

You don't play years of top level professional sport without learning a thing or two about discipline and leadership.

I'll be looking for the Lazarus Team on the Senate ballot paper, for sure.


----------



## wayneL (6 April 2016)

Logique said:


> Senators Lleyonhelm, Lazarus and Xylophone at the Press Club today. Not a bad group.
> 
> Lazarus in particular impresses me. He's a straight shooter, and he sure has Malcolm Turnbull's number.
> 
> ...




He's gained lots of confidence too, his speaking flows better these days


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2016)

Logique said:


> Senators Lleyonhelm, Lazarus and Xylophone at the Press Club today. Not a bad group.
> 
> Lazarus in particular impresses me. He's a straight shooter, and he sure has Malcolm Turnbull's number.
> 
> ...




What the hell is going on here! I'm finding myself agreeing various members here. It's not good enough...stop it now and behave.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2016)

Glen Lazarus is getting to me.

When he became a Senator under Palmer I thought he was a bozo working for a bozo, but having seen a bit of him I realise that there is a heart in there, despite some un-sophistication and rough edges. Some guts too, after walking out on Clive.

I can't vote for him as I'm not in Qld, but I wish him luck and hope he returns after the election.

Nick Xenophon is a slick lawyer, but with some commonsense and good intentions. I'm sure he will get back, with one or two colleagues. 

As for Lleyonhelm I think he was lucky to get in and doesn't have a lot to add to the government process, but at least we know where he stands and why he is there.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 April 2016)

I hope some heads roll over this if they haven't already


IBM's legal stoush with Queensland Health over payroll debacle ends

By Lexy Hamilton-Smith





> "Technology giant IBM has passed the final hurdle to win its protracted legal battle against Queensland Health over the failed payroll system that will ultimately cost taxpayers $1.2 billion.
> 
> Thousands of staff were unpaid or paid incorrectly under the scheme, ordered by the previous Labor government."
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...ed-queensland-health-payroll-disaster/7306528


----------



## CanOz (7 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope some heads roll over this if they haven't already
> 
> 
> IBM's legal stoush with Queensland Health over payroll debacle ends
> ...




Large enterprise application implementations take total commitment and world class change management practices if full success is to be realized on time and on budget. I witnessed one of these take place at my former employer and while many would say it wasn't perfect, it was certainly well received...



> An inquiry found the system failure, one of the worst public administrations failures in Australia's history, was partly the fault of public servants who failed to manage the project properly.




Sounds like the change management process wasn't well managed here...


----------



## Craton (7 April 2016)

From what a mate has told me (he worked on same of these big projects) it wasn't just the Qld health system payroll s/ware that was a bit of a debaucle either.

The shift to automated toll road collection was another.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 April 2016)

CanOz said:


> Large enterprise application implementations take total commitment and world class change management practices if full success is to be realized on time and on budget. I witnessed one of these take place at my former employer and while many would say it wasn't perfect, it was certainly well received...
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the change management process wasn't well managed here...




Both the Newman and Palaszczuk governments seemed more intent on suing IBM than conducting a genuine enquiry to find out exactly what went wrong, thus adding to the bottom line bill.

This fiasco, and the one you pointed out regarding tolls indicates to me that there needs to be a Federal body containing the expertise to manage such projects. Maybe Infrastructure Australia should be that body. The same sort of mismanagement seems to occur time after time in all States and it looks as though they are staffed by amateurs.


----------



## Tisme (7 April 2016)

Craton said:


> From what a mate has told me (he worked on same of these big projects) it wasn't just the Qld health system payroll s/ware that was a bit of a debaucle either.
> 
> The shift to automated toll road collection was another.



 yes QLD was not alone in the affair. There were other states too, with perhaps more expended,  who managed to kill it off under the radar. This is what you get when you buddy up to outside consultants who have a beneficial stake in the project.

Trying to make a system designed for a retail chain fit into the hundreds of payroll structures of govt was ill conceived and naive.


----------



## Tisme (7 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Both the Newman and Palaszczuk governments seemed more intent on suing IBM than conducting a genuine enquiry to find out exactly what went wrong, thus adding to the bottom line bill.
> 
> This fiasco, and the one you pointed out regarding tolls indicates to me that there needs to be a Federal body containing the expertise to manage such projects. Maybe Infrastructure Australia should be that body. The same sort of mismanagement seems to occur time after time in all States and it looks as though they are staffed by amateurs.




They know what went wrong. It's a look away situation now.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2016)

A hypothetical problem about retrospectivity.

If a government announced the re introduction of death duties on people who died after a year from now, is it

a. not retrospective because it doesn't apply to people who died before the announcement or

b. is retrospective because it taxes assets acquired before the announcement ?

Surely most tax measures could be attacked as retrospective, so is "retrospectivity" even a valid point to argue regarding tax changes ?


----------



## Tisme (3 July 2016)

Tuckey and cobbers


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The same sort of mismanagement seems to occur time after time in all States and it looks as though they are staffed by amateurs.




The problem is the political cycle.

The PS goes through cycles of slow expansion followed by abrupt and generally chaotic contraction. 

During that contraction phase, which is usually but not always associated with a Liberal government, those best able to gain employment elsewhere are the ones to leave first and walk away with $$$ in the form of a redundancy. 

During the growth phase there's a development of skills but many in due course leave once they realise that the contraction phase is inevitable at some point and that the "job for life" bit only applies to a few generalists and rarely to those with technical knowledge.

The overall effect of the cycle is to concentrate the PS with generalists and purge out specialists. So we end up with some departments now having an army of contract administrators and so on but not a single person who understands what the contractors are supposed to be doing. Needless to say this doesn't work out too well and tends to be rather profitable for the contractors.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 July 2016)

So true. 
Even worse, specialists are considered limited and unable to understand the full picture. The truth is that it is more likely the generalist that misses the salient points.


----------



## dutchie (4 July 2016)

EXCLUSIVE Miles Godfrey and Leigh van den Broeke, The Daily Telegraph
July 3, 2016 4:25pm


BILLIONAIRE retailer Gerry Harvey says Australia has been ungovernable since John Howard was dumped from *office and claims the only cure for the nation’s broken democracy ”” hamstrung by years of dismal infighting ”” is to install a dictator.

Business leaders reacted with dismay at the knife-edge election result, which leaves the nation facing three more years of uncertainty, the possible loss of its triple-A credit rating and the likelihood that meaningful reforms will be blocked in a hostile Senate.
Post election lament... Gerry Harvey

Australian Institute of Company Directors CEO and former NSW Liberal leader John Brogden described the result as “the worst possible outcome for Australia”.

Mr Harvey said the nation was living beyond its means but claimed neither side of politics could do anything about it because of the prolonged instability in Canberra.


_Bring on the benevolent dictator!!_


----------



## basilio (5 July 2016)

*What is a true Conservative political philosophy in Australia ?* I think the question should be asked in light of the radical conservatism currently espoused by the Cory Bernardis and Tony Abbotts in the Liberal party.

I came across a thoughtful analysis on the subject in Meanjin Quarterly. Just quoted part of the comments.



> Conservatives should always endeavour to support the unity and camaraderie of the national family. In this regard, conservatives should support the formal recognition of Australia’s Indigenous peoples. Conser*va*tives respect history and heritage, and in this country no-one’s heritage and history should be more respected than that of Indigenous Australia. It is past time to give our Indigenous brothers and sisters the recognition that they have been too long denied. Similarly, conservatives should defend the religious faiths of all Australians, particularly our Muslim citizens, as we do our Jewish and Christian citizens. We have no religious tests in this country and we should not countenance their imposition now. Conservatives should also recall that any restriction on Islamic religious freedom will soon find its way to other faiths””and that this path too often leads to the guillotine or the gulag. The ‘freedom’-inspired reforms of section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act are of marginal utility for whatever libertarian cause is being pushed, and prudence, as opposed to absolutism, would be a better guide on this issue. Certainly, Malcolm Turnbull’s instincts were more sound and conservative on the ‘freedom agenda’ than those pursuing this gambit. What is conservative about promoting divisions in a pluralistic society? Rather, like St Paul and the London Irish Rifles, our motto should be ‘Who shall separate us?’24




https://meanjin.com.au/essays/conservative-futures/


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2016)

So the ALP continue to garner the largest % of voters @ 35.3% so far;
the Libs 28.4%
the Greens 9.9%
the LNP 8.3%
the Nationals 4.9%
etc


----------



## SirRumpole (5 July 2016)

basilio said:


> *What is a true Conservative political philosophy in Australia ?*




Most Conservatives seem to hail the Menzies and Howard eras as the high points in political conservatism, but as far as I remember nothing much happened in either of those administrations and they just let the world drift by.

Howard actually would have got my vote if he had invested in productive infrastructure with the billions he reaped from the mining boom instead of frittering it away on vote grabbing middle class welfare like free superannuation etc, which also annoyed Costello as I recall.

I think Bernadi and co are off on the loony fringe of the Libs. John Howard didn't have much love for them and I doubt Menzies would have either.


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2016)

basilio said:


> *What is a true Conservative political philosophy in Australia ? *



*

There is nothing special about the conservative political parties here. The Coalition exists, as did its predecessor the UAP to oppose the Labor Party of the day. Quite simply it is a permanent opposing team to anything Labor extol, popular vote catching aside. 

Never overthink the Liberal Party, it's just a comfortable pair of slippers for the majority of followers who have lost their zest for life and instead a desire for a lazy man's esprit de corps where the complaining mouth does all the mechanics while the limbs do zip. *


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> There is nothing special about the conservative political parties here. The Coalition exists, as did its predecessor the UAP to oppose the Labor Party of the day. Quite simply it is a permanent opposing team to anything Labor extol, popular vote catching aside.
> 
> Never overthink the Liberal Party, it's just a comfortable pair of slippers for the majority of followers who have lost their zest for life and instead a desire for a lazy man's esprit de corps where the complaining mouth does all the mechanics while the limbs do zip.



obviously a nice objective vision of those who do not hold the view of the Truth as defined by Tisme;
This tirade is well in the line of some neocon rants we can also find in the forums..A bit disappointing...


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> obviously a nice objective vision of those who do not hold the view of the Truth as defined by Tisme;
> This tirade is well in the line of some neocon rants we can also find in the forums..A bit disappointing...




 I don't rant my friend, I merely hold a mirror to the truth, and you obviously "can't handle the truth". 

If you don't believe what I say, do your own homework on the Liberal party founding history (factual) and I will welcome your apology.  I'll repeat it for you : the Liberal Party is predicated on opposing the Labor Party.

Remember I don't vote either yours or theirs, so I'm objective.


----------



## sptrawler (5 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> I don't rant my friend, I merely hold a mirror to the truth, and you obviously "can't handle the truth".
> 
> If you don't believe what I say, do your own homework on the Liberal party founding history (factual) and I will welcome your apology.  I'll repeat it for you : the Liberal Party is predicated on opposing the Labor Party.
> 
> Remember I don't vote either yours or theirs, so I'm objective.




If you don't vote yours or theirs and are objective, you would have critiqued the Labor Party at the same time.

Mate you're full of it.

Somewhat blinded by your own BS.lol


----------



## qldfrog (6 July 2016)

sptrawler said:


> If you don't vote yours or theirs and are objective, you would have critiqued the Labor Party at the same time.
> 
> Mate you're full of it.
> 
> Somewhat blinded by your own BS.lol



Nothing to add there.
Tisme, I initially thought you were truly non affiliated (as i am actually!) but your input in these threads made it clear it is not the case.Maybe you just belong to an ALP faction still to be found
Sir Rumpole is openly ALP: nothing wrong with that (well...kind of  ) as Noco for example is openly LNP (unless I am very wrong);
At least, a debate can be held.
Anyway, a bit off the thread.We are back in politics to a non action nothing done mode.
The deficit will widen and this country fxxked in a big way with only a few of our duopoly politicians acknowledging the current state of the electorate: neither party as they stand are answering the needs of the country;

What about the GST increase, the negative gearing restrictions and super reviews  etc, these are obvious areas which need to be tackled to redress the budget as is tax avoidance by the majors multinationals: mining and Amazon(s) of this world
Can not both party agree on that?I tend to believe a clear platform on these items would have been successful


----------



## dutchie (6 July 2016)

The General Public: "We want our politicians to do something."

The Politicians: " We are living beyond our means so we will have to decrease spending on health, education and welfare."

The General Public: "Oh no, you can't do that."


----------



## Tisme (6 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Tisme, I initially thought you were truly non affiliated (as i am actually!) but your input in these threads made it clear it is not the case.Maybe you just belong to an ALP faction still to be found




If you are going to bait qldfrog, you need to do it better than that. 

Ask yourself why my friends and I would openly declare voting for Pauline Hanson before the election ... she is the mortal enemy of Labor moreso than the LNP and Greens = answer = because we are fed up with the tedium and anxiety of having Drill Sergeants instead of Vanguard Generals.

My philosophies are simple and far more liberal than the supposed Liberal Party. I actually believe in the right of the individual to have his or her own opinion without being mocked by some political union like the ALP, LNP, Greens, etc and they are UNIONS whether we like it or not.

If having a social conscience and allegiance to our nation is interpretted an ALP faction hack so be it, but in truth I see things in three dimensions, not a tunnel between political bookends Commos one end Facists the other.

If and when you see an ALP in power you will see my same critical eye focused on them, because they will be the ones in charge not the LNP. .........

You ain't seen vitriol until you've seen me under attack on other forums for denouncing Gillard and Rudd


----------



## SirRumpole (6 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> You ain't seen vitriol until you've seen me under attack on other forums for denouncing Gillard and Rudd




Et tu Brutḗ ?


----------



## overhang (6 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> The General Public: "We want our politicians to do something."
> 
> The Politicians: " We are living beyond our means so we will have to decrease spending on health, education and welfare."
> 
> The General Public: "Oh no, you can't do that."




It's more a case of 

The General Public: "We want our politicians to do something."

The Politicians: " We are living beyond our means so we will have to decrease spending on health, education and welfare *but give a corporate tax cut in hope that it will spark investment in our country even though demand won't increase because wage growth is at its lowest point since records began but trickle down economics might mean there is some scraps left for the average joe blow .*"

The General Public: "Is this really the best you can come up with"


----------



## qldfrog (6 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> If you are going to bait qldfrog, you need to do it better than that.
> 
> Ask yourself why my friends and I would openly declare voting for Pauline Hanson before the election ... she is the mortal enemy of Labor moreso than the LNP and Greens = answer = because we are fed up with the tedium and anxiety of having Drill Sergeants instead of Vanguard Generals.
> 
> ...



are you the same persons as the post who initiate the response, am confused as i would Ok all the above?
Anyway we are both off topic for this thread


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> The General Public: "We want our politicians to do something."
> 
> The Politicians: " We are living beyond our means so we will have to decrease spending on health, education and welfare."
> 
> The General Public: "Oh no, you can't do that."




I think the masses realise that things aren't right but where the problem lies is that politicians seem only interested in their "preferred" solutions which don't align too well with community expectations.

The obvious "no brainer" thing to do to fix the budget is to crack down hard on tax avoidance. Only after that's done, and seen to have been done, will the community be willing to accept cuts to services.


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 July 2016)

Even those who you'd expect to support the Liberals have realised what the problem is:

Business backlash for Liberals http://www.themercury.com.au/news/n...s/news-story/6d1bb7443b601a9e69c28d282cb417d4



> “The distinct difference between the Liberals and Labor was Labor were always talking about local issues.
> 
> “The Liberals were stuck in this Sydney-based campaign rather than how policies affected the person on the street.”





> Politics in Australia needs to focus back on the average person on the street and start an agenda for the future that brings people along


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Even those who you'd expect to support the Liberals have realised what the problem is:
> 
> Business backlash for Liberals http://www.themercury.com.au/news/n...s/news-story/6d1bb7443b601a9e69c28d282cb417d4




All the pollies have to realise that 2/3 rds of the economy is consumer spending.

 If the consumers don't have the confidence to spend eg if they are afraid of losing their jobs, are stuck in part time/temporary/casual positions, are spending most of their incomes on rent/mortgages/child care or have to compete with cheap overseas labour, then the economy will stumble along like it has done for the last 5 years or so, 

Security of employment lifts the confidence to spend. We have to look at what the trend towards part time and casual work is doing to the economy in general and the processes we can use to correct this.


----------



## noco (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> All the pollies have to realise that 2/3 rds of the economy is consumer spending.
> 
> If the consumers don't have the confidence to spend eg if they are afraid of losing their jobs, are stuck in part time/temporary/casual positions, are spending most of their incomes on rent/mortgages/child care or have to compete with cheap overseas labour, then the economy will stumble along like it has done for the last 5 years or so,
> 
> Security of employment lifts the confidence to spend. We have to look at what the trend towards part time and casual work is doing to the economy in general and the processes we can use to correct this.




I have a solution for that problem.

Send the  militant unions over to those Asian countries and get the workers to strike for higher wages, get their pay rates up from $2 per hour to $25 per hour, penalty rates on weekends, 4 weeks annual leave, 17.5% leave loading, 2 weeks sick pay, 9.5 % superannuation, workers compensation, 36 hours per week, 6 months maternity leave.....Get them on the dole if they can't find work........Did I miss anything that might add to the cost of overseas manufacturing?

And make sure those Asian factories have anti pollution to reduce green house gases.....That will be a good job for the Greenies.

Now bring those Asian countries into line all of the above and then we might become competitive again.

I mean, what would we have done without the militant unions in Australia?....


----------



## Tisme (7 July 2016)

noco said:


> I have a solution for that problem.
> 
> Send the  militant unions over to those Asian countries and get the workers to strike for higher wages, get their pay rates up from $2 per hour to $25 per hour, penalty rates on weekends, 4 weeks annual leave, 17.5% leave loading, 2 weeks sick pay, 9.5 % superannuation, workers compensation, 36 hours per week, 6 months maternity leave.....Get them on the dole if they can't find work........Did I miss anything that might add to the cost of overseas manufacturing?
> 
> ...




Our currency is weighted against other economies based on e.g. interest rates, inflation, political stability, current account deficits, terms of trade, public debt, economic performance, etc. The fact that our standard of living is way higher than Asian has the effect that cheap goods imported here are are not so affordable over there. 

Given your post is tongue in cheek, I'm not sure why you would advocate we rejig our economy to level it with a third world country.  I thought the general idea was to leave the place in better shape than when you entered the world ..... and it's definitely better than it was way back yonder imo.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2016)

noco said:


> I have a solution for that problem.
> 
> Send the  militant unions over to those Asian countries and get the workers to strike for higher wages, get their pay rates up from $2 per hour to $25 per hour, penalty rates on weekends, 4 weeks annual leave, 17.5% leave loading, 2 weeks sick pay, 9.5 % superannuation, workers compensation, 36 hours per week, 6 months maternity leave.....Get them on the dole if they can't find work........Did I miss anything that might add to the cost of overseas manufacturing?
> 
> ...




Every now and then you actually have a good idea, even if you are being sarcastic.

If foreign workers were being paid properly, their standard of living would increase and we wouldn't have to give them as much aid.

Our farmers/manufacturers would be competing on a level playing field and could serve our own market, keeping jobs secure and enabling consumer confidence.

It's the multinationals that are exploiting workers overseas and they need to be given a kick up the backside.


----------



## noco (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Every now and then you actually have a good idea, even if you are being sarcastic.
> 
> If foreign workers were being paid properly, their standard of living would increase and we wouldn't have to give them as much aid.
> 
> ...




If we were able to manufacture goods here, we would have to pay 10 fold for clothing, shoes and other garments.......White goods would cost 10 times the price you pay now.

Would you be happy to pay those prices?....And what would that do to the cost of living here in Australia?

Tell me, if you went into a store to buy a shirt and notice one shirt selling for $10 say made in Bangladesh and a similar shirt made in Australia for $100. which one are you going to buy?

You can't blame the multi nationals for wanting to buy cheaper over seas to stay competitive....That is not exploiting workers overseas.

You can't have your cake and eat it too....You either pay a higher price for one thing and have to do without something else.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2016)

noco said:


> If we were able to manufacture goods here, we would have to pay 10 fold for clothing, shoes and other garments.......White goods would cost 10 times the price you pay now.
> 
> Would you be happy to pay those prices?....And what would that do to the cost of living here in Australia?
> 
> ...




Firstly, the price difference you quoted is exaggerated, secondly if the Aussie shirt lasted 10 times longer than the Bangladeshi one, then it's worth the cost. 

Most people are prepared to pay more for quality, and to keep the money circulating locally rather than going OS.

Isn't your heroine Pauline promoting "Aussie made" and cutting out 456 visas ?

Are you a traitor to her cause ?


----------



## Tisme (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Every now and then you actually have a good idea, even if you are being sarcastic.
> 
> If foreign workers were being paid properly, their standard of living would increase and we wouldn't have to give them as much aid.
> 
> ...




But that is what happens, they start out as bargain bazaars and end up either with a post boom wasteland of factories and hi rise, or move onto becoming city states like Singapore or Hong Kong. The refocus moves to the next third world country like India and some places in Africa. 

Some poverty countries never get past Call Centre status e.g. Philippines. Many countries that trace their imperial roots back to the Iberian Peninsula seem to be eternal basket cases and therefore always destined for mediocrity.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> But that is what happens, they start out as bargain bazaars and end up either with a post boom wasteland of factories and hi rise, or move onto becoming city states like Singapore or Hong Kong. The refocus moves to the next third world country like India and some places in Africa.
> 
> Some poverty countries never get past Call Centre status e.g. Philippines. Many countries that trace their imperial roots back to the Iberian Peninsula seem to be eternal basket cases and therefore always destined for mediocrity.




Education seems to be the key.

 Singaporeans are highly educated and therefore move into the services sector like finance, education is a low priority in the Philippines, Bangladesh etc so they are easy fodder for slave labour in factories.

Automation will kill factory work,but provides an opportunity for countries like us if we can educate people in writing software etc to run the machines.

Did you see Four Corners this week ?


----------



## noco (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Firstly, the price difference you quoted is exaggerated, secondly if the Aussie shirt lasted 10 times longer than the Bangladeshi one, then it's worth the cost.
> 
> Most people are prepared to pay more for quality, and to keep the money circulating locally rather than going OS.
> 
> ...




Firstly, if we were able to manufacture clothing here, they would probably be made from imported cottons or wool most likely originally grown in Australia or polyester materials so your argument of a shirt lasting 10 times longer is exaggerated....The price difference I quoted was hypothetical to be used as a comparison.......Their is nothing wrong with the quality of overseas manufactured articles and they are improving all the time.....I would say most people would buy an article at a cheaper price...Anyway, please tell me where can you buy a shirt in Australia which is made in Australia.... 

Pauline Hanson's idea of cutting out 457 visas is a point that I don't think she quite understands. The use of 457 visas are normally used when some of our lazy workers do not want to leave the comforts of city life to work in some remote part of Australia except in the case of one particular union that brought in 41 workers from overseas when in fact they should have employed local workers.

I am in cinch with Pauline when it comes to, "we are all Australians whether we are black or white"......I agree with her when it comes to the Muslim community wanting to introduce their own laws here and the hatred some Muslims exhibit towards Australians......I agree with her that we should ban the burka here  and cease the approval  building of more mosques....Muslims leave their country because they are being persecuted but they should not be allowed to bring with them their own Sharia laws and hatred for our way of life.


----------



## Tisme (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Education seems to be the key.
> 
> Singaporeans are highly educated and therefore move into the services sector like finance, education is a low priority in the Philippines, Bangladesh etc so they are easy fodder for slave labour in factories.
> 
> ...




I didn't, but it's interesting you mention automation. 

Way back in the 70's I was installing and programming PLCs, in the 80's I helped vanguard direct digital control, fibre optic comms, etc and yet here we are 40 years on and it's still considered a black art because of resistance to knowledge change and to my mind people who have allowed politics to cloud their intellect (e.g. NBN). We tend to be an end product consumer nation rather than a participator.

The QLD govt embraced automation teaching in schools around 8 years ago only to have the Newman Govt wind it back in favour of the three R's focus....sufficed to say the current govt has reinvigorated it so that grade 7's are the starting point for digital teaching.


----------



## noco (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Education seems to be the key.
> 
> Singaporeans are highly educated and therefore move into the services sector like finance, education is a low priority in the Philippines, Bangladesh etc so they are easy fodder for slave labour in factories.
> 
> ...




What rubbish you speak about Filipinos not being educated.....I have been married to a Filipino for 34 years.....we brought her two sisters and one brother here to Australia.....the brother has a degree in structural engineering, one sister is a civil engineer and one sister has her  letters an accountancy.

I cannot speak for the standard of education in Bangladesh.

I tell you what, our standard of education here leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to literacy and numerousy....Many youths are entering university and are behind in the simple  use of the English language...They can't do simple arithmetic without the use of a computer or calculator.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2016)

noco said:


> What rubbish you speak about Filipinos not being educated.....I have been married to a Filipino for 34 years.....we brought her two sisters and one brother here to Australia.....the brother has a degree in structural engineering, one sister is a civil engineer and one sister has her  letters an accountancy.




So why did they need to come here to get a job ?


----------



## noco (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So why did they need to come here to get a job ?




They were happy to come here to marry an Australian, to earn a higher rate of pay in their profession to be able to help poorer members of their family back home....There is a lot of poverty in the Philippines but things have improved out of sight over the past 30 years from observation of several trips we have had in that time and I would say The Philippines would be be further advanced than Bangladesh.


----------



## moXJO (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So why did they need to come here to get a job ?




Money.

Yes our standard of living is high due to high wages, govt benefits. 
But our standard of life sucks. We basically live to work. Many of those people that come here to work send money back to family. Doesn't necessarily mean they want to live here. Most I talk to say Australia is very difficult to live in.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2016)

moXJO said:


> Money.
> 
> Yes our standard of living is high due to high wages, govt benefits.
> But our standard of life sucks. We basically live to work. Many of those people that come here to work send money back to family. Doesn't necessarily mean they want to live here. Most I talk to say Australia is very difficult to live in.




When you say "difficult", do you just mean "expensive" or is there something else ?


----------



## moXJO (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> When you say "difficult", do you just mean "expensive" or is there something else ?




From car rego,  to starting a business. Even hospital visits. It's not just expense, but the multifaceted paper pushing and time wasting. Even the difficulty in getting a job.
The money is what makes australia attractive. I would also say you rights as a citizen,  but many foreigners are treated as second class.


----------



## CanOz (7 July 2016)

moXJO said:


> From car rego,  to starting a business. Even hospital visits. It's not just expense, but the multifaceted paper pushing and time wasting. Even the difficulty in getting a job.
> The money is what makes australia attractive. I would also say you rights as a citizen,  but many foreigners are treated as second class.




Australia is a breeze for paper pushing compared to China....not that it would make a fair comparison, just saying...


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2016)

It shows how poor a state Australian politics is in, Keating is getting more airplay now, than he has had in the last 20 years.

Everyone wants to talk about anything, but the reality of our predicament.

Australians just want to hear, there there everything will be o.k, well it won't.IMO

All hands on deck, is the call of the day. IMO


----------



## luutzu (7 July 2016)

sptrawler said:


> It shows how poor a state Australian politics is in, Keating is getting more airplay now, than he has had in the last 20 years.
> 
> Everyone wants to talk about anything, but the reality of our predicament.
> 
> ...




There there, she'll be right mate.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> There there, she'll be right mate.




You think so.

Thank god, that makes me feel better.


----------



## luutzu (7 July 2016)

sptrawler said:


> You think so.
> 
> Thank god, that makes me feel better.




Oh you were saying that's what we want to hear and I thought to ablige 

It is what we make it, no? People power?

Alright alright, we're stuffed. It'll be like the 1930s real soon.

Our guardian big brother is about to elect either a racist right-wing nut job or a technically criminal war hawk nut job as president. That tend to never end well.

On top of that its domestic condition is anything but bliss; On its foreign policy side, it tend to know no borders and fighting a few wars here there and everywhere. So big brother has got his hands a bit full. Which kinda throw out the need for us to always follow its wars, open our bases for its use, and might not be receiving much dividends this time round.

This time round we got a serious Asian giant hungry for water, fuel and could do with a lot of land nearby its new frontiers - something we have loads of and not knowing what to do with really.

If the Asian Hordes and other barbarians aren't the problem, we got our own Masters of War and Master of Man pitting its own people against another, beggaring its own population in the service of the Masters of the Universe. And does it while destroying the planet too.

I'd be busy building bomb shelters about now... maybe tomorrow


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Oh you were saying that's what we want to hear and I thought to ablige
> 
> It is what we make it, no? People power?
> 
> Alright alright, we're stuffed. It'll be like the 1930s real soon.




It won't be like the 1930's, it will be like the 1980's.


----------



## luutzu (8 July 2016)

sptrawler said:


> It won't be like the 1930's, it will be like the 1980's.




Don't think the 1980s had ever left us. Or so I've heard. Wasn't in the area at the time


----------



## SirRumpole (12 July 2016)

You want some ideas of fixing the budget deficit and debt ?

Read this.

$50 billion tax avoided by big companies in Australia thanks to accounting firms.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-...misation-costs-governments-1-trillion/7587092


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2016)

Business lobby outgunned by trade unions, left-wing think tanks: Menzies Research Centre

I wonder why that is. Maybe because 'Left' groups represent 'ordinary' voters, while 'Right' groups represent the already rich wanting to get richer but not prepared to employ their own consumers ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...bby-now-outgunned-by-left-wing-groups/8095274


----------



## Tisme (6 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Business lobby outgunned by trade unions, left-wing think tanks: Menzies Research Centre
> 
> I wonder why that is. Maybe because 'Left' groups represent 'ordinary' voters, while 'Right' groups represent the already rich wanting to get richer but not prepared to employ their own consumers ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...bby-now-outgunned-by-left-wing-groups/8095274




I think it's more that the LNP politicians are unable to draw the bow long enough to accommodate the lunacy of some neo liberal policies coming from their twisted hate filled comrades :- they just can't bring themselves to believe the hyperbole .... no one (intelligent) can.


----------



## wayneL (6 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Business lobby outgunned by trade unions, left-wing think tanks: Menzies Research Centre
> 
> I wonder why that is. Maybe because 'Left' groups represent 'ordinary' voters, while 'Right' groups represent the already rich wanting to get richer but not prepared to employ their own consumers ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...bby-now-outgunned-by-left-wing-groups/8095274




It is because the west had been infected with virtuopathy, which plays to the left.

Wanna see the extreme manifestation of this insidious psychopathological malady? Travel with me in the horsiverse a few days.


----------



## wayneL (6 December 2016)

I was going to open a separate thread for this, but this thread is probably apt.

it's actually half question, half comment. the mainstream press, particularily the ABC, seem to be using populism or the word populist as a pejorative term.

is it such a sin to be seen as representing the views of the majority of people? Vis a vis, populist?


----------



## Knobby22 (6 December 2016)

wayneL said:


> I was going to open a separate thread for this, but this thread is probably apt.
> 
> it's actually half question, half comment. the mainstream press, particularily the ABC, seem to be using populism or the word populist as a pejorative term.
> 
> is it such a sin to be seen as representing the views of the majority of people? Vis a vis, populist?




Yes, especially with regard what is happening in Europe right now. 
They should be using the word demagogue - a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.

However, I don't think it is as simple as that in reality. People are sick of the left right straight jacket and their fears not being addressed.


----------



## wayneL (6 December 2016)

So you think these clowns should enforce what "they " think it's good for us? 

I have never actually noticed any such superiority of judgement.


----------



## Ves (6 December 2016)

wayneL said:


> is it such a sin to be seen as representing the views of the majority of people? Vis a vis, populist?



Populism isn't necessarily about the 'majority'  (not to say that it can't be).

Generally populism is a movement against the ruling class or perceived (political) elites based on concerns that their ideas/ideals are not based on what is good for the people as a whole,  but what is good for the ruling class.  There is usually a disconnect between the people outside of the ruling class believing they need (more) control over government,  in contrast to the ruling class having too much or total control over it.

I don't think there is really an answer to your question,  other than it depends;  sometimes Populist movements have good ideas,  sometimes they don't.  Same for governments.

However,  I don't think there is any difference in an underlying idea just because a Populist movement comes up with it.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> However, I don't think it is as simple as that in reality. People are sick of the left right straight jacket and their fears not being addressed.




Trump actually crosses the boundaries of Left and Right, at least in his speech, his actions remain to be seen. 

Conservatives (Republicans) are usually the champions of free enterprise and open competition, but Trump is proposing a closed economy and high tariffs. So in a sense he is a populist giving people what they think they want, even if these policies lead to retaliation by other countries resulting in less US trade and therefore less jobs in export industries.


----------



## Tink (13 February 2017)

Political Quiz

https://australia.isidewith.com/

https://www.ldp.org.au/quiz/


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

Tink said:


> Political Quiz
> 
> https://australia.isidewith.com/
> 
> https://www.ldp.org.au/quiz/




That second test is rather confusing in that it combines potential likes and dislikes in the one question. Almost forces a neutral zone view.


----------



## Logique (13 February 2017)

Tink said:


> Political Quiz
> https://australia.isidewith.com/
> https://www.ldp.org.au/quiz/



isidewith - fairly accurate I think. About where anyone in here would expect. To the left of Tony Abbott, but to the right of Jenny Macklin


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2017)

These podcasts are rather interesting, Sam Dastyari observations are insightful.

http://www.tai.org.au/podcasts


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

Ken Henry sprays the political and media system,



And Rightly So !



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-...ad-ken-henry-attacks-political-system/8296692


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2017)

...and yet 18 months ago he advises the Govt to delay tax reform until after the election... in other words, not take tax reform to an election...
http://www.afr.com/news/special-rep...-turnbull-to-delay-tax-reform-20150922-gjsrjx

I'm no fan of Ken Henry at all. He wanted to tax the family home, raise the super preservation age, increase the GST and put up a mining tax. That all went down very well


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> ...and yet 18 months ago he advises the Govt to delay tax reform until after the election... in other words, not take tax reform to an election...
> http://www.afr.com/news/special-rep...-turnbull-to-delay-tax-reform-20150922-gjsrjx
> 
> I'm no fan of Ken Henry at all. He wanted to tax the family home, raise the super preservation age, increase the GST and put up a mining tax. That all went down very well





He wanted better consultation and education of the community first.



> Mr Henry said the "genuine education of or at least consultation" with the community that is required for successful tax report hasn't happened. "And we're going to need at least that for this tax reform package."


----------



## noco (23 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> ...and yet 18 months ago he advises the Govt to delay tax reform until after the election... in other words, not take tax reform to an election...
> http://www.afr.com/news/special-rep...-turnbull-to-delay-tax-reform-20150922-gjsrjx
> 
> I'm no fan of Ken Henry at all. He wanted to tax the family home, raise the super preservation age, increase the GST and put up a mining tax. That all went down very well




So how do you suggest the government pay back the bad debt of $500 billion most of which was created by Labor's bad management and and again by Labor for blocking economic savings in the senate....Including $5 billion savings which was in their own policy.


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> So how do you suggest the government pay back the bad debt of $500 billion most of which was created by Labor's bad management and and again by Labor for blocking economic savings in the senate....Including $5 billion savings which was in their own policy.



Not spending an extra $50b on tax cuts for a start. Reforming negative gearing is another.

First of all, it's not the $500b you have to worry about. It's the *net* debt... around $300b.
One of the biggest drag on budgets is health. So the Medicare levy needs to be looked at. It's currently pulling in around half its annual costs. So it needs to be increased in gradual increments. 2% extra will mitigate the interest bill... around $15b a year.

Finish the NBN rollout. Every connection is revenue. The more people connected the greater the revenue. Eventually, it'll be sold off just like everything else gets done when Libs are in power.

That's all you need to do for now. Over time the future fund will increase and its gains fed into the budget every year will increase.

Most important. Stop talking the economy down with constant jibes about debt. Consumer confidence is an inexhaustible commodity.

That's my plan. What's yours ?


----------



## Tisme (23 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Not spending an extra $50b on tax cuts for a start. Reforming negative gearing is another.
> 
> First of all, it's not the $500b you have to worry about. It's the *net* debt... around $300b.
> One of the biggest drag on budgets is health. So the Medicare levy needs to be looked at. It's currently pulling in around half its annual costs. So it needs to be increased in gradual increments. 2% extra will mitigate the interest bill... around $15b a year.
> ...




A bit easier than that, just send our forward growth to a stall condition, just like Howard did and sell off assets 

Of course peak debt of 13% of GDP  occurred under the LNP economic managers in 2014/15...this is good debt because it isn't Labor's debt.... it will become bad debt again when the ALP win the next election to fix Malcolm's Mess.


----------



## Tisme (23 February 2017)

So a foreign sectarian Jew leader comes over and insults one of our secular leaders and our own chief leader delights in the spectacle of an overt discriminatory act that would/should be unconstitutional here?  Very patriot indeed and does indeed show the hatred of the working class in Oz by the elites.

I want to be a fly on the wall when Shorten becomes PM and cancels the contracts for the drones, etc we buy from them.

Of course the Maritime Workers union and its affiliates will now wreak vengeance on Israel for having the impudence to insult OUR country, which apparently is considered by the LNP to be the patritions = the  30% who vote Liberal of course.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...a/news-story/95ae7b0cb280daae075d3dc753482248


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> .
> 
> I want to be a fly on the wall when Shorten becomes PM



Might be waiting a while. I don't see that toad being PM anytime soon.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> So how do you suggest the government pay back the bad debt of $500 billion




* Negative gearing, capital gains, superannuation reform.
* Export tax on gas, minerals.
* Shelve corporation tax cut most don't pay the full rate anyway.
* Give a tax cut to low/middle income earners who will spend this in the economy and generate income  for   business which will result in more employment.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> * Negative gearing, capital gains, superannuation reform..





What sort of reform would you want on capital gains?


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What sort of reform would you want on capital gains?




There is a 50% discount on CGT if a property is held for a year ? That discount could be altered downwards to reap more government revenue.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a 50% discount on CGT if a property is held for a year ? That discount could be altered downwards to reap more government revenue.




I never really understand how they managed to convince the public that capital gain is somehow a different income to income from labour. One that ought to be treated with a special discount.

To encourage investments; reward aussie battlers who's doing it tough they have cash to spare investing in stuff.


----------



## McLovin (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I never really understand how they managed to convince the public that capital gain is somehow a different income to income from labour. One that ought to be treated with a special discount.




It's to stop people paying tax on capital gains that are the result of inflation. Pre the discount cap gains were indexed to remove the effect of inflation.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

McLovin said:


> It's to stop people paying tax on capital gains that are the result of inflation. Pre the discount cap gains were indexed to remove the effect of inflation.




There is no discount for inflation for income tax is there ?

Malcolm Fraser once mention tax indexation but it never happened.

So luutzu is correct, capital gains should not be treated differently to income tax.


----------



## McLovin (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no discount for inflation for income tax is there ?




Why would there be? We're not in Zimbabwe.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

McLovin said:


> Why would there be? We're not in Zimbabwe.




So there is none needed on CGT either.


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2017)

*Tony Abbott: Coalition in danger of becoming ‘Labor lite’*

FORMER Prime Minister Tony Abbott has penned a highly critical analysis of the Turnbull Government, highlighting voter “despair” and concerns “the Coalition has become Labor lite.”

In a stark manifesto, the leader of the Liberal Party’s Right said the next election was winnable and outlined his own plan that would take the Coalition to victory, from “scaled back immigration”, to scrapping the Human Rights Commission and ending the pandering to climate change theology.

Mr Abbott also acknowledged the disappointment in his own Government and said he could understand why support was surging for One Nation.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...k=e9bbac719df9f4e81c3347abd9650d30-1487843074

Another dagger in the derriere from the dill. This guy really hates his own Govt. Weirdo.
Why not just bugger off and join Bernardi or Hanson if you can't get over your sour grapes?


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

McLovin said:


> It's to stop people paying tax on capital gains that are the result of inflation. Pre the discount cap gains were indexed to remove the effect of inflation.





Say that again? I think I understand it, but not really.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I never really understand how they managed to convince the public that capital gain is somehow a different income to income from labour. One that ought to be treated with a special discount.
> 
> To encourage investments; reward aussie battlers who's doing it tough they have cash to spare investing in stuff.




It is different, without the discount there is double taxation.

Alot of the capital gain shareholders make is due to retained earnings, which have already been taxed, taxing the share holder for their "capital gain" which is largely due to the company retaining earnings, means the share holder is being taxed twice.

Eg, XYZ share is $10, it earns $1 per share, pays tax of $0.30, retains the other $0.70 to grow the company, share price grows to $11.40, share holder sells and makes $1.40 capital gain, but half of that $1.40 capital gain is retained earnings, 50% capital gains tax discount prevents the double taxation that would occur if you charged tax on the full gain which included retained earnings.


Also as mcglovin said, part of the capital gain was due solely to inflation,


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So luutzu is correct, capital gains should not be treated differently to income tax.




Yeah it should, because as I explained above, taxing the full amount causes double taxation, and when you factor in inflation, it's a tax on the original capital, not true earnings.

Eg, you buy a house for $100k, 20 years later inflation has halved the value of money, so every thing now costs twice as much, including houses so your house is now worth $200k, you then decide to move Into an identical house next door you sell your home for $200k, the government take 30% of the inflation induced capital gain leaving you with only $170K, so you wouldn't be able to buy the house, you lost a chunk of your original capital to tax simple because of inflation.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It is different, without the discount there is double taxation.
> 
> Alot of the capital gain shareholders make is due to retained earnings, which have already been taxed, taxing the share holder for their "capital gain" which is largely due to the company retaining earnings, means the share holder is being taxed twice.
> 
> ...




I thought the double-taxed thing is if you'd have to pay tax on your dividends. So we have that franked credit thing right?

Aren't we assuming that any gain in share price are due to the retained earnings? Or at least half of it?

Sometimes the share price gains because great work [labour] has been put to great use.

But let say that it's just all capital retained, so it shouldn't be taxed in full....

Then why are interests we earn from our after-tax income taxed as additional income, not given that 50% off business?

If we apply the same principle, then couldn't it be argued that a person's wage shouldn't be taxed completely, but only the additional wage increase at the tax bracket while the same wage as previous year at half price since...

say, a person earn $50K last year... that was for their labour. This year they earn $55k, couldn't we argue that the $50K earned was retained labour/skills and that had already been taxed. So only tax half of that $50k.

Anyway, sounds a lot like class warfare to me.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I thought the double-taxed thing is if you'd have to pay tax on your dividends. So we have that franked credit thing right?
> 
> Aren't we assuming that any gain in share price are due to the retained earnings? Or at least half of it?
> 
> ...




Yes a company's after tax earnings that are paid out receive a franking credit to prevent double taxation, which is totally fair.

However, if you taxed all the capital gain, you would be taxing the retained earnings after they have already been taxed, which wouldn't be fair.

The discount is a recognition that not all of the capital gain is true earnings and some of it is due to capital being retained inside the company that has already been taxed, 50% is just a round number, sometimes 100% of th gain is due to retained earnings, so times less, it would be to hard to judge each individual situation.

I have no idea what you are talking about in your last four paragraphs.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes a company's after tax earnings that are paid out receive a franking credit to prevent double taxation, which is totally fair.
> 
> However, if you taxed all the capital gain, you would be taxing the retained earnings after they have already been taxed, which wouldn't be fair.
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about in your last four paragraphs.




The franking credit is fair enough. But the capital gains discount is just... you're really pushing the logic on that one dude.

Maybe it's not your logic, it's what the argument is when those with capital came up with it.

Let's take your typical corporate raiders... they use capital as their tools, raid a company, work very hard firing people and cutting costs... flock it off to friendly fund managers who's looking after other people's money and is not afraid to lose it.

The corporate raider make a big massive profit on their work... why is that not considered their or their company's income, but are considered a capital gain and only half of that profit is taxed?

Or take your typical property investor... they're in it to make money, right? Interests they paid are deductible expenses... then when they flock the property off, make a profit... and this is their day job... why is that profit consider "capital gains" and only half is taxed?

I mean I know why... it's just not fair isn't it? Not for people who work and labour.

A fairer system would be to tax labour less but tax capital gains more. Why? Because labour is hard work; you got to sweat and ache earning that income.

Income earn through simple capital, an invented entity... that's just extra cream on top; that's easy money; bonuses. Nobody sweats any extra to earn that capital gain... nobody's being hurt in the making of that gain... well, except the labourer and third world countries... 

Be more fair to tax that higher just so the poor working folks can get a break.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The franking credit is fair enough. But the capital gains discount is just... you're really pushing the logic on that one dude.
> .




recognising that when a $1 dividend is paid to a shareholder from a companys after tax earnings, the shareholder deserves tax/franking credit on to prevent him pay tax twice on the same $1.

Is no different to.

Recognising that if that same after tax $1 earnings is retained by the company and not paid as a dividend, then when the shareholder sells his share and takes that $1 as a capital gain rather than a dividend, there should also be some device to prevent him being taxed on it again.

There is also the inflation angle.

The 50% capital gain discount isn't perfect, there will be cases where only a small portion of the gain is related to retained earnings, but there will also be cases where 100% of the gain is related to retained, so investors will win some and lose some, but there needs to be some device to try and prevent double taxation system.


----------



## sptrawler (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The franking credit is fair enough. But the capital gains discount is just... you're really pushing the logic on that one dude.
> 
> Maybe it's not your logic, it's what the argument is when those with capital came up with it.
> 
> ...




I see what you're saying and to a degree it is true.
The current system, was put in place because the old system of cost base indexing was cumbersome and very inefficient.
Also property has boomed in the last 20 years, prior to that it moved very slowly, maybe a time based discount should be introduced.
Something like 50% discount after 10 years, 25% after 5 years, then 5% reductions per year held until 0 if held for less than 1year.
The problem at the moment no body is prepared to reduce any tax breaks, it is the weirdest political period I've seen in my life.
Blind Freddy can see we are on a runaway train, but nobody has the balls to stop it, there will be a crash.IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah it should, because as I explained above, taxing the full amount causes double taxation, and when you factor in inflation, it's a tax on the original capital, not true earnings.




Are you seriously suggesting that there should be a 50% CGT discount on property held for one year  when inflation has been around 2%pa for decades ?

Why not adjust to real inflation which would be 50% CGT  after 25 years, and to be fair adjust tax on wages for inflation as well so people on average earnings don't get pushed into higher tax brackets ?

This is just another example of how LNP governments favour their capital holding mates at the expense of the majority.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I see what you're saying and to a degree it is true.
> The current system, was put in place because the old system of cost base indexing was cumbersome and very inefficient.
> Also property has boomed in the last 20 years, prior to that it moved very slowly, maybe a time based discount should be introduced.
> Something like 50% discount after 10 years, 25% after 5 years, then 5% reductions per year held until 0 if held for less than 1year.
> ...




A time based system would be just as arbitrary, because it's still possible that even after only 1 year, 100% of the capital gain is either retained earnings or inflation based.


SirRumpole said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that there should be a 50% CGT discount on property held for one year  when inflation has been around 2%pa for decades ?
> 
> Why not adjust to real inflation which would be 50% CGT  after 25 years, and to be fair adjust tax on wages for inflation as well so people on average earnings don't get pushed into higher tax brackets ?
> 
> This is just another example of how LNP governments favour their capital holding mates at the expense of the majority.




You know it's only a 50% discount of the capital gain you make? Your second paragraph makes me think you don't understand how the tax discount operates.

So if you by a house for $100k and after a year it goes up 6% to $106k, you will only pay tax on half that gain, so $3k will be added to your taxable income.

Now inflation is pretty close to 3%, so that capital gains tax discount has made it so the investor is not being charged tax on the inflation component.

It's not perfect, but it is a pretty good rule of thumb, and far fairer than no discount.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It's not perfect, but it is a pretty good rule of thumb, and far fairer than no discount.




Maybe the discount should be deleted altogether and then investors will have to live with the effects of inflation, just like everyone else.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe the discount should be deleted altogether and then investors will have to live with the effects of inflation, just like everyone else.




Investors already get hit more than every one else, non investor home owners get a 100% capital gains discount, they don't pay Tax on their capital gains at all, if an investor owns the same house, we get taxed.

Also, when it comes to shares, there is the whole retained earnings problem you haven't dealt with. Pretty much no company's pay out 100% of their earnings, they all retain some of their profit, so any future capital gain is going to be be partly due to an accumulation of this retained funds.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> if an investor owns the same house, we get taxed.




You can reduce your income and your tax liability via negative gearing.

In any case, residential property is for people to live in , not for making making money for landlords.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You can reduce your income and your tax liability via negative gearing.
> 
> In any case, residential property is for people to live in , not for making making money for landlords.




capital gains tax affects people that aren't negative geared, not all investors have other income to reduce, and interest losses are real losses, people that are negative geared are actually losing real money.

Capital gains tax affects more than just residential property, and anyway there will always be people that either need or want to rent, so there will be a need for investors to provide rental homes.

How exactly would you compensate capital gains that are due to retained earnings?


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

Imagine putting $100 in an interest earning bank account, you pay tax on the interest each year, but let the remaining "after tax" interest build up.

After 10 years you have $150 in the account and decide to withdraw it, the government then says, "Thats a nice capital gain you have there, we want to tax that"

So even though you already paid tax on the interest, and the $50 "capital gain" is really just your after tax dollars that have accumulated, the government want to tax you again just for withdrawing the funds from the investment.

This is what it's like when you are taxed on capital gains that are due to a company retaining its earnings.

Hence why a 50% capital gain discount is fair, it's simply recognising that some of the "capital gain" is actually just returning capital to you that you contributed via retained earnings.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A time based system would be just as arbitrary, because it's still possible that even after only 1 year, 100% of the capital gain is either retained earnings or inflation based.
> 
> 
> You know it's only a 50% discount of the capital gain you make? Your second paragraph makes me think you don't understand how the tax discount operates.
> ...




Why aren't we doing that for income earners?

Most average wage earners have their pay "increase" at or below the year's inflation, and those in "low skill" having it review maybe once ever two years, with maybe an increase that's maybe 3%.

These laws are designed to protect those with assets, pure and simple.

So all these rules to fight inflation, to not have it take and tax people's capital. Maybe half the country doesn't have assets or much capital; but they do have a lot of debt.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Why aren't we doing that for income earners?




The government makes money out of income earners and inflation by bracket creep.

If wage and salary earners have to be ripped off by the government then I don't see why investors should be exempt.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Imagine putting $100 in an interest earning bank account, you pay tax on the interest each year, but let the remaining "after tax" interest build up.
> 
> After 10 years you have $150 in the account and decide to withdraw it, the government then says, "Thats a nice capital gain you have there, we want to tax that"
> 
> ...




No it's not.

It wouldn't be fair only if they want to tax the entire $150. But here, they're only taxing half of that gain. Why?

Aren't the $50 new profit you've earned, or your capital earn? And what's more, you've had the benefit of that capital not being tax on an annual basis even though it's earning all through those years.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The government makes money out of income earners and inflation by bracket creep.
> 
> If wage and salary earners have to be ripped off by the government then I don't see why investors should be exempt.




Picking soft targets. 

You don't go pick fights with those who, like you, have money and can influence your career progression.

Pick on the poor, tell them a good story that time's tough and everyone [like them] have to make do with less.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> No it's not.
> 
> It wouldn't be fair only if they want to tax the entire $150. But here, they're only taxing half of that gain. Why?




They will tax the $50, because it would be considered a capital gain.

However, because the $50 is really just an accumulation of retained earning which have already had tax paid on it, its unfair.



luutzu said:


> Aren't the $50 new profit you've earned, or your capital earn?
> 
> 
> luutzu said:
> ...




No, read my example of the bank account again.

The $50 is just retained earnings which have already been taxed each year.



luutzu said:


> And what's more, you've had the benefit of that capital not being tax on an annual basis even though it's earning all through those years.





No, every year company's pay company tax on their earnings, Then some of those earnings are retained and will make up part of the future capital gain the investor will get, he will then be charged capital gains tax, if he doesn't get the 50% capital gains tax discount, then its double taxation.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Why aren't we doing that for income earners?
> .





Everyone pays tax on their earnings, company's pay company tax.

The capital gains discount is to prevent the investor being double charged.

e.g.. paying the company tax when the company reports a profit, and then paying tax again when he accesses those profits by selling his shares.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The $50 is just retained earnings which have already been taxed each year.





Bank accounts are never taxed that way and businesses have depreciation deduction on assets which makes up for any discount on capital gain.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The government makes money out of income earners and inflation by bracket creep.





Investors have their earnings affected by that to.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> They will tax the $50, because it would be considered a capital gain.
> 
> However, because the $50 is really just an accumulation of retained earning which have already had tax paid on it, its unfair.
> 
> ...





The $100 is the retained earning.

The $50 earned in interest is additional income earned from the retained earning.

So how would considering the entire $50 in interest income be double taxing? It's new income.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Bank accounts are never taxed that way and businesses have depreciation deduction on assets which makes up for any discount on capital gain.




I know they aren't taxed like that, no one would accept that, but thats exactly how investors are taxed when they get taxed on capital gains.

Depreciation of assets is a real cost, and claiming depreciation on a property increases the capital gain charge later, it doesn't reduce it.

e.g., buy house for $200k, claim $50K depreciation, reduces cost base to $150K, sell it for $300K = $150K capital gain, when before it would have only been $100K


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Everyone pays tax on their earnings, company's pay company tax.
> 
> The capital gains discount is to prevent the investor being double charged.
> 
> e.g.. paying the company tax when the company reports a profit, and then paying tax again when he accesses those profits by selling his shares.




I'll believe this one day... when my portfolio ballooned and it all just make sense why I shouldn't pay much tax on it.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The $100 is the retained earning.
> 
> The $50 earned in interest is additional income earned from the retained earning.
> 
> So how would considering the entire $50 in interest income be double taxing? It's new income.




No the $100 is the starting capital in the bank account, your original deposit.

you then earn interest and pay tax, and after a few years have $150 ($50 retained after tax interest/earnings)

when you withdraw the $150, the government calls the $50 of retained interest/earnings a "Capital Gain" and taxes you, when really its just retained capital you have already been taxed on.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I know they aren't taxed like that, no one would accept that, but thats exactly how investors are taxed when they get taxed on capital gains.
> 
> Depreciation of assets is a real cost, and claiming depreciation on a property increases the capital gain charge later, it doesn't reduce it.
> 
> e.g., buy house for $200k, claim $50K depreciation, reduces cost base to $150K, sell it for $300K = $150K capital gain, when before it would have only been $100K




So you get a deduction off your income through depreciation and negative gearing and make it up later with capital gain and you still expect a discount on your tax through "inflation".

Suck it up matey, everyone else has to.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I'll believe this one day... when my portfolio ballooned and it all just make sense why I shouldn't pay much tax on it.




Ok, take Berkshire Hathaway as an example.

in the 60's it was $9 / share

Today its $254,900 / share

Thats a huge Capital Gain, Is it all that capital gain fresh untaxed earnings? No.

The only reason Berkshire's shares has been able to get that capital gain is because it has never paid a dividend.

Each year Berkshire earns money, then pays company tax and then retains that profit in the business increasing its asset base, So that big capital gain is actually largely just an accumulation of shareholders funds which have already been taxed, its not "free money" or "New earnings"

----------------------------

I would be happy to pay tax on 100% of my dividends and 100% of capital gains if the company tax didn't exist, but as long as the money company is being taxed at 30% before I get my dividends or capital gains, then I deserve franking credits on dividends and capital gains discount on capital gains.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So you get a deduction off your income through depreciation and negative gearing and make it up later with capital gain and you still expect a discount on your tax through "inflation".
> 
> Suck it up matey, everyone else has to.




Depreciation is a recognition that the building is wearing out, and the capital is eroding offsetting income.

If I spend $10,000 replacing a roof on my property, I can't write that off against income in one year, I have to depreciated it over 20 years, so I have to spend the cash today and they get to claim back $500 per year against income for the next 20 years.

How is that an unfair advantage to me?


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Depreciation is a recognition that the building is wearing out, and the capital is eroding offsetting income.
> 
> If I spend $10,000 replacing a roof on my property, I can't write that off against income in one year, I have to depreciated it over 20 years, so I have to spend the cash today and they get to claim back $500 per year against income for the next 20 years.
> 
> How is that an unfair advantage to me?




Can a labourer claim depreciation, wear and tear on their physical body?

How come a hard, in-organic object get that generous deduction but a worker can't?

Or you're saying that if a self-employed, or blue collar work were to go and get a knee replacement, they can deduct that as wear and tear?


Come on man, the system is rigged. And since capitalists rigged it, of course it's fair.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> How is that an unfair advantage to me?




You can claim a $10,000 deduction for repairs in the year you spend it, but I  as an owner occupier get no deduction at  all for repairs.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Ok, take Berkshire Hathaway as an example.
> 
> in the 60's it was $9 / share
> 
> ...




So you're saying that Buffett does nothing with the retained earning? He just store it there and they adds up?

I thought money makes money. Money don't just sit around, right? Not at Berkshire.

So how is it that the retained money that is put to making more money... that new money is just retained money. 

Fair enough. That's why I decided to go into investing... for the fairness of it.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> So you're saying that Buffett does nothing with the retained earning? He just store it there and they adds up?
> 
> I thought money makes money. Money don't just sit around, right? Not at Berkshire.
> 
> ...




It doesn't matter what buffet does with the money, any earnings it generates in the mean time will be charged company tax, but eventually that money has to get back to the investor, and because its already had tax paid on it, it shouldn't be taxed on the full capital gain.

I can't believe you can't understand the concept of retained earnings being part of shareholders capital, and are not genuine fresh earnings.

you understand that you should only be charged tax on your "Gain" not the initial capital you put in, retained earnings are exactly the same, it's share holders capital that has already been taxed.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You can claim a $10,000 deduction for repairs in the year you spend it.




Any major capital works, can't be deducted, they are added to the capital base and get depreciated over time.



SirRumpole said:


> but I  as an owner occupier get no deduction at  all for repairs.




Thats because its personal consumption, you also pay no capital gains tax at all.



luutzu said:


> Come on man, the system is rigged. And since capitalists rigged it, of course it's fair.





Thats just you being cynical again.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Any major capital works, can't be deducted, they are added to the capital base and get depreciated over time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Didn't Buffett also say there's been class warfare. And his class has been winning.

Then another quote where he said it's good to have friends in high places.

What might be seen as cynicism might just be facts man. 

I mean, I see a fair number of good honest people and that's a great thing to see. No cynicism from me at all. Like how I think you're quite an alright guy... a bit too much in love with capitalism but yea, might read a few honest books later and get cynical


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It doesn't matter what buffet does with the money, any earnings it generates in the mean time will be charged company tax, but eventually that money has to get back to the investor, and because its already had tax paid on it, it shouldn't be taxed on the full capital gain.
> 
> I can't believe you can't understand the concept of retained earnings being part of shareholders capital, and are not genuine fresh earnings.
> 
> you understand that you should only be charged tax on your "Gain" not the initial capital you put in, retained earnings are exactly the same, it's share holders capital that has already been taxed.





Yea I get that part.

But like I said before, you're assuming that in that situation, any capital gained from sell of shares are just all book value gain. That's rarely ever the case is it?

So OK, it's too onerous to calculate which portion is the already taxed/retained earning and which... no it's pretty easy. Just get the accountant to work out what's the book value recorded and what's the selling price. 

The difference are additional income not yet taxed. True?


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Any major capital works, can't be deducted, they are added to the capital base and get depreciated over time.




 You are shifting the goalposts again, you started off with repairs and when I pointed out your obvious error you go back to capital works.

You can't expect the tax system to be fair to everyone, it certainly isn't to wage and salary earners so what makes investors a protected species ?


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are shifting the goalposts again, you started off with repairs and when I pointed out your obvious error you go back to capital works.
> 
> You can't expect the tax system to be fair to everyone, it certainly isn't to wage and salary earners so what makes investors a protected species ?




Because they're job creators and not welfare recipients, that's why.

Inflation eating at your "gain"? Don't worry about it, let's not tax half of those gains. Feel better?

Inflation mean your wage increase is not a real increase? Say what? How do you prove that inflation was 2% last year and your wage increase being 2% isn't a real increase? You might have spend on Woolies Select and make your dollar work harder... whatever, just pay up your fair share or call a lawyer.


----------



## bellenuit (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Bank accounts are never taxed that way and businesses have depreciation deduction on assets which makes up for any discount on capital gain.




Looks like you don't understand depreciation either SirRumpole.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Looks like you don't understand depreciation either SirRumpole.




Reduction in the book value of assets over time.
Deduction to the PL account, therefore reduction in tax payable over the life of the asset.

What else ?


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> you're assuming that in that situation, any capital gained from sell of shares are just all book value gain.





No I am not, I am just saying part of it is, I am noting calling for a 100% capital gains tax discount, I am just saying the current method of only taxing half the gain is much fairer than taxing the whole gain, when you take into consideration retained earnings and inflation.



luutzu said:


> no it's pretty easy. Just get the accountant to work out what's the book value recorded and what's the selling price.
> 
> The difference are additional income not yet taxed. True?




its much harder than that, and the winner there would be the accountants, the 50% discount is a pretty good rule of thumb.



SirRumpole said:


> You are shifting the goalposts again, you started off with repairs and when I pointed out your obvious error you go back to capital works.
> 
> ?




replacing a roof, renovation of kitchen bathroom etc etc are not considered repairs, these are the the types of things that are depreciated.



SirRumpole said:


> You can't expect the tax system to be fair to everyone,




why not? but all I am talking about its adding a degree of fairness, not capital gains discount would be a total rip off.



SirRumpole said:


> it certainly isn't to wage and salary earners so what makes investors a protected species ?





how so?


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

[QUOTE="Value Collector, post: 939230, member: 57577]


how so?[/QUOTE]

Bracket creep
Limited deductions from income
GST

Anyway, I would be more happy if all the things you defend are applied to everything except residential housing.

Every person that investors deprive of owning their own homes are going to be more dependent on the public purse later on, so it's in the national interest that as many people as possible are able to own their own homes if they wish.

Gradually getting investors out of the residential market by eliminating negative gearing and reducing the CGT discount on residential property will help not only the budget bottom line but will spread the national wealth and reduce the reliance on pensions in the future.

Investors in residential housing pretending that they are somehow unfairly treated by the tax system is a joke. They have been sponging on the public purse and wannabe owner occupiers for too long.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Reduction in the book value of assets over time.
> Deduction to the PL account, therefore reduction in tax payable over the life of the asset.
> 
> What else ?




There's also this thing call "impairment charges".

It's where the assets they had, according to their accountants and "independent third party consultant"... those assets can no longer earn as much money now as they're used to.

So the assets is "impaired" and all the "losses" from such impairment are tax deductible "expenses". They're non-cash losses, but they're real losses and the ATO will deduct them from any taxable income. 

It's quite incredible.


----------



## Ves (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> There's also this thing call "impairment charges".
> 
> It's where the assets they had, according to their accountants and "independent third party consultant"... those assets can no longer earn as much money now as they're used to.
> 
> So the assets is "impaired" and all the "losses" from such impairment *are tax deductible "expenses".* They're non-cash losses, but they're real losses and the ATO will deduct them from any taxable income.



I don't actually think that this is correct.  I believe they're only deductible immediately if the asset is a) severely damaged beyond repair or b) it is part of a corporate restructure.

A standard write down of goodwill or impairment of assets due to re-assessment of earnings power isn't tax deductible.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Ves said:


> I don't actually think that this is correct.  I believe they're only deductible immediately if the asset is a) severely damaged beyond repair or b) it is part of a corporate restructure.
> 
> A standard write down of goodwill or impairment of assets due to re-assessment of earnings power isn't tax deductible.




I'm pretty sure it is. Having read Mermaid Marine's annual reports.

They claims some $250M in non-cash impairment losses; claim that as a business loss; and get a tax return.

Pretty sure Santos did the same.


----------



## Ves (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I'm pretty sure it is. Having read Mermaid Marine's annual reports.
> 
> They claims some $250M in non-cash impairment losses; claim that as a business loss; and get a tax return.



Have a look at Income Tax Expense reconciliation at Note 6 of the 2016 Financial Report.   Most of the write-off in that year actually ends up in the Deferred Tax Asset account.

From that perspective,  they cannot use the tax benefit until the assets are either sold or destroyed.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Bracket creep
> Limited deductions from income
> GST
> 
> .





That is the same for everyone, we all use the same brackets, except its worse for investors because they might have to put 10 years earnings into one years brackets, putting them in the highest tax bracket, imagine if a worker had to claim 10 years wages in one years brackets.



SirRumpole said:


> Investors in residential housing pretending that they are somehow unfairly treated by the tax system is a joke. They have been sponging on the public purse and wannabe owner occupiers for too long.




No, I am not saying the current system is unfair, I am saying it is fair.


luutzu said:


> So the assets is "impaired" and all the "losses" from such impairment are tax deductible "expenses". They're non-cash losses, but they're real losses and the ATO will deduct them from any taxable income.
> .





A company has to be able to claim its losses, loss of assets is just as real as loss of cash. I can't see a problem there.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Ves said:


> Have a look at Income Tax Expense reconciliation at Note 6 of the 2016 Financial Report.   Most of the write-off in that year actually ends up in the Deferred Tax Asset account.
> 
> From that perspective,  they cannot use the tax benefit until the assets are either sold or destroyed.











2015: without expensing $120.710M in impairment charge, would be a profit of $72.491M

Expensed that charge and it's a loss of $48.219M.

Same method results in a massive loss in 2016.






Got a tax benefit.


Then below in the cash flow statement, got a tax return.


----------



## bellenuit (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Reduction in the book value of assets over time.
> Deduction to the PL account, therefore reduction in tax payable over the life of the asset.
> 
> What else ?




Yes, but it doesn't make up for any discount on capital gain. It is an actual expense incurred that is eliminated over the life of the asset rather than all in the first year. If you didn't allow depreciation expense, then you could be taxing non-existent gains.

Company buys a machine for $22M that increases sales by $30M over the 20 year life of the machine. Looking at the marginal effect that has on the company books (i.e. all the rest being equal), if depreciation wasn't allowed as a deduction, that $30M in extra sales would be taxed $9M over 20 years (@30%) leaving a net profit after tax of $21M. So that investment of $22M by the company meant that they are $1M worse off than if they hadn't bought it at all.

It is a genuine expense that isn't making up for anything else. Not allowing it is akin to taxing revenue, not profit.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Not allowing it is akin to taxing revenue, not profit.




I don't think I ever suggested that depreciation should not be allowed did I ?


----------



## bellenuit (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think I ever suggested that depreciation should not be allowed did I ?




No. You said: "_businesses have depreciation deduction on assets which makes up for any discount on capital gain" _which by implication is suggesting that it is a benefit of sorts that would compensate for the removal of the capital gain discount_. _It doesn't make up for anything. It is a fundamental business cost deductible from gross profit, just like raw materials, heating, lighting etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Well, the RBA governor thinks negative gearing and CGT discount should be reviewed.



			
				Philip Lowe said:
			
		

> RBA's Philip Lowe takes aim at negative gearing, questions global race to cut corporate taxes
> 
> Australia could "take the heat out of the housing market" and make home prices more affordable by cutting negative gearing and capital gains tax concessions, the head of Australia's Reserve Bank admitted today.
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

Note the reserve banks goal there would be to "take the heat out of the property market" not create a fair tax system.

Offcourse if your goal is to lower the price of an asset class, attaching an unfair and punitive tax to it is a way of achieving it.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> View attachment 70066
> 
> 
> 2015: without expensing $120.710M in impairment charge, would be a profit of $72.491M
> ...




Whats wrong with that?


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Offcourse if your goal is to lower the price of an asset class, attaching an unfair and punitive tax to it is a way of achieving it.




Or removing a benefit from one class of owner and transferring it to another.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Whats wrong with that?




As a shareholder, I'd say there's nothing wrong with that.

As a taxpayer, it's a bit rich to get to write what "losses" you'd like to claim.

Could a labourer/worker ever be able to do that kind of claim?

Say they earned $100K, then got injured and could only now earn $50k. Could they then claim an impairment to their asset and write that they had lost $50K? Or claim that they would have otherwise be paid $75K above their current $50K, so it's a $75K loss.

That's the equivalent of what these non-cash impairment charges are if applied to labour.

I'm not trying to be on that high horse or whatever, obviously I'm in the game. Just want to point out that the game's rigged in favour of one class against the rest.

As a capitalist, as a business owner, it serves us much better if we don't ourselves root for these things. Because in the end, an impoverished working class can't do good work, can't afford our goods and services, and there's that possibility of revolution where the top gets chopped first.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> As a shareholder, I'd say there's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> As a taxpayer, it's a bit rich to get to write what "losses" you'd like to claim.
> 
> ...



Investors can't write off or impair their body either, I mean I can't claim a tax deduction if i lost my eyes or hands and I couldn't invest effectively anymore.

a better example would be talking about the tradies or labourers tools, which he probably gets to write off as a tax deduction in the year he buys them, that's a much better deal than the company gets.

But you are acting like the impairment is not a real loss.

That asset you are saying got impaired was purchased using real cash, that had already had tax paid on it, if it turns out that asset is not worth as much as what it is on the books for, or lost completely it gets written off as a loss against other income, nothing wrong with that.

Surely you would write off the trading losses you make against the trading profits to get a net figure to pay your tax on, or do you just forget about your losses and pay tax on your profit making trades?

You are looking at genuine accounting practices with a real purpose and trying to Create a story of how it is a rort or something.


----------



## Ves (24 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> 2015: without expensing $120.710M in impairment charge, would be a profit of $72.491M
> 
> Expensed that charge and it's a loss of $48.219M.
> 
> ...



Took out your images,  but people can see them above.

At note 7 you can see "Effect of expenses that are not deductible in determining taxable profit" which is $29.272m.    I think this is the part of the impairment that they don't get an immediate tax benefit.  It's been added back.

Wrong thread to get into a detailed argument about it,  but that's what it looks like.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> It [depreciation] is a fundamental business cost deductible from gross profit, just like raw materials, heating, lighting etc.




No, depreciation is not "just like" raw materials, lighting etc.

Depreciation is a notional adjustment to the value of assets which may or may not be accurate; ie you can make either capital losses or capital gains if you sell the asset below or above its book value..

If you sell an asset for below its depreciated value you can offset that loss against other capital gains, whereas raw materials and lighting are direct expenses with a known value which are totally written off against income. (Maybe you didn't really understand this ).

But we are digressing. The real question that started this discussion is what should be the amount of CGT *discount* if any, and what is the justification for that amount ?

Labor has plans to cut the CGT discount from 50% to 25%, so what is the argument that this would be unfair ?


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Labor has plans to cut the CGT discount from 50% to 25%, so what is the argument that this would be unfair ?




The argument is that retained earnings and inflation generally make up more than 25% of the capital gain, 50% is a better number.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The argument is that retained earnings and inflation generally make up more than 25% of the capital gain, 50% is a better number.




When times are tough, we all have to make sacrifices.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> When times are tough, we all have to make sacrifices.




Ok then, reduce the home owners capital gain discount from 100% to 50% to match investors, since 75% of homes are owner occupiers you will get more tax revenue that way.

Did you know if it wasn't for the capital gains tax discount, the double taxation on the retained earning component would cause me to be paying 69% tax on my companys earnings, how could that be considered fair.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Ok then, reduce the home owners capital gain discount from 100% to 50% to match investors, since 75% of homes are owner occupiers you will get more tax revenue that way.




If you allow owner occupiers to deduct interest payments on their mortgages, repairs to the house etc fine.

The point about adjusting the CGT discount on residential property is to make houses less attractive to investors who make up 60% of the home lending market and more attractive to owner occupiers. I don't see anything wrong with that as I said before. Owner occupancy is a social issue not just one of economic "fairness" to investors.

I don't consider that it's fair that potential owner occupiers are being squeezed out of the market by people who already own their own homes but get a taxpayer subsidy to take someone else's. 

And any way, under Labor's plan, current investors would not be affected so I don't see what you are grumbling about.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

Let me give you an example of how getting rid of the Capital Gains tax would cause Mum and Dad Investors to be subjected to heavy double taxation.

If a "Mum and Dad" decided 10 years ago to buy some Woolworths shares they would have paid around $23.40 if they bought well.

On Friday they could have sold them for $26.50, So over the 10 year period they made a capital gain of $3.10 per share.

Do they deserve to pay tax on 100% of that capital gain, no they don't and I will show you why.

Over that 10 year period, Woolworths had *"after tax"* earnings of $16.37 per share, the company has already paid tax on this $16.37.

Out of the $16.37, $10.01 was paid to the "Mum and Dad" as dividends, and the company retained $6.36 to grow the business.

So that $3.10 capital gain they earned, was 100% generated by retained after tax earnings of $6.36.

Charging the capital gains tax is double taxation to this couple, firstly they paid company tax when their company earned the profit, then when they withdraw their earnings as a capital gain by selling their shares, you want to tax them again.

If we want companies to invest their profits back into growing the the economy, we can't have a system that punishes businesses for retaining and reinvesting profits, All companies require money to grow, so when an investor gets a capital gain due to growth that was funded by after tax earnings, you need to recognise that.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If you allow owner occupiers to deduct interest payments on their mortgages, repairs to the house etc fine.




Thats personal consumption, no one is allowed to claim things that are for personal consumption, I would like to write off the breakfast I ate this morning but I can't.



SirRumpole said:


> The point about adjusting the CGT discount on residential property is to make houses less attractive to investors who make up 60% of the home lending market and more attractive to owner occupiers. I don't see anything wrong with that as I said before. Owner occupancy is a social issue not just one of economic "fairness" to investors.
> 
> .




only like 25% of homes are owned by investors, they only seem to make up more of the market because the homes are traded more frequently.



SirRumpole said:


> I don't consider that it's fair that potential owner occupiers are being squeezed out of the market by people who already own their own homes but get a taxpayer subsidy to take someone else's.
> .




There is no subsidy.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Let me give you an example of how getting rid of the Capital Gains tax would cause Mum and Dad Investors to be subjected to heavy double taxation.




My concern is the residential housing market. Apply your rules to investment in the share market, starting businesses, existing businesses etc, but the housing market is different because Mums and Dads are being squeezed out of it by overly generous incentives to investors.

Let's face it, you wouldn't be in the housing market if it wasn't a benefit to you would you ?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> There is no subsidy.





Investors get to deduct expenses from their income that owner occupiers don't. Plain and simple.


----------



## Tisme (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Investors get to deduct expenses from their income that owner occupiers don't. Plain and simple.





If you kill the investor property boom, in the absence of any meaningful industry that once was, you kill what little is left of GDP.

Changing the rules is political poison for "economic managers" who have killed off manufacturing, etc in the space of 5 years .... they can't even build a broadband network better the third world countries. But then again how can we expect lawyers and cow cockies in politician's robes to know anything about industry when they have never turned their hands to it or mixed in with the working class.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> If you kill the investor property boom, in the absence of any meaningful industry that once was, you kill what little is left of GDP.




I don't get that.

If investors don't buy the houses then the owner occupiers will. There is supposed to be a housing shortage which is why prices are so high. If the price becomes affordable again demand will increase and more houses will be built

What developers might lose on price they gain in volume. In any case it's been shown that investors mostly buy existing homes so what is the contribution to GDP of that ?


----------



## Tisme (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't get that.
> 
> If investors don't buy the houses then the owner occupiers will. There is supposed to be a housing shortage which is why prices are so high. If the price becomes affordable again demand will increase and more houses will be built
> 
> What developers might lose on price they gain in volume. In any case it's been shown that investors mostly buy existing homes so what is the contribution to GDP of that ?




The variables that make up the GDP is what the govt wants them to be. There is the obvious tactile component is the domestic construction sector, which is already running flat chat with the available land to it. Councils and state govts are making sure demand exceeds supply so they can garner greater fees and imposts and investors are knowingly profiting from it.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Investors get to deduct expenses from their income that owner occupiers don't. Plain and simple.



Thats not a subsidy

We all pay tax on our income, and deduct the cost incurred generating income, no one is allowed to deduct personal expenses though, why should they.

"Income" is profit which is,  Total Revenue - expenses = net profit

Ofcourse it makes sense to when working out how much tax I need to pay I add up all the incomes streams I had, then deduct all the costs I incurred and then pay tax on the net figure.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We all pay tax on our income, and deduct the cost incurred generating income, no one is allowed to deduct personal expenses though, why should they.




The government is getting a free deal then aren't they ? 

A income for one entity is a cost to another, double entry.

When a bank receives interest from a business they pay tax on it , the business paying the tax deducts it.

But when it comes to an individual, all expenses are "personal" so no deduction for us, even though the bank still gets taxed on the interest an individual pays to the bank. 

Just another example of where consumers are getting ripped off.

So, question for you.

Why are you an investor in residential property ? (I assume from your responses that you are, but if not that's my mistake).


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Just another example of where consumers are getting ripped off.




All Investors are also consumers, All consumers can be investors is they want.

Some one some where has to pay tax, the fairest way to charge tax is to tax genuine income and genuine wealth creation, the current system does that ok.

Taxing gains that aren't real gains, or incomes that aren't real incomes is not fair.


SirRumpole said:


> Why are you an investor in residential property ? (I assume from your responses that you are, but if not that's my mistake).




Because as a young soldier (19) I was earning more than I needed to live off, and You don't get to choose which part of the country you work in, so I found myself working in and renting a house in a city I didn't want to stay in long term, so I decided to buy a house in my home town and rent it out in the mean time, and use my excess income to pay it off, so that when I eventually left the Army and could return home I would have a house mostly paid for.

Long story short, between the Army and business interests I have never returned home, but now own two properties there.

Property is not my main investment platform, but it's an ok place to store some capital where it can earn a bit more income than a bank deposit, and the capital is protected from inflation, and I still plan on eventually getting back to my home town.

In the mean time I actually rent my current home.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> A income for one entity is a cost to another, double entry.
> 
> When a bank receives interest from a business they pay tax on it , the business paying the tax deducts it.
> 
> .




Exactly, so an investor paying interest on a loan, creates a taxable income stream for the bank, taxable staff wages, and depositors earn taxable interest.

So one mans deduction is another mans declared profit, so the government. Is earning is pound of flesh from the system either way


----------



## bellenuit (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No, depreciation is not "just like" raw materials, lighting etc.




I said it was a fundamental business cost, just like other fundamental business costs. Not that it is identical in nature to other business costs, just like "raw materials" isn't identical to "heating". 

And it is only notional in the how the cost is allocated over its life, not on its original cost. And just because you can make adjustments to its value when sold doesn't change what it's original cost is. Raw materials and many other costs are the same. If allocated at cost value to general stock and there is a subsequent change, then that must be accounted for (spoilage, damage, returns).

And yes we are digressing. Because the real issue is that you suggested that being allowed to depreciate was some sort of benefit that would compensate for losing a capital gains discount. You are completely wrong on that.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Property is not my main investment platform, but it's an ok place to store some capital where it can earn a bit more income than a bank deposit, and the capital is protected from inflation, and I still plan on eventually getting back to my home town.




Fair enough, but I think that 25% of the market owned by investors is too high.

Get it down to 5-10% to provide rental properties for those who don't want to buy and give owner occupiers a chance to invest in their own retirement by property acquisition.


----------



## bellenuit (25 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But when it comes to an individual, all expenses are "personal" so no deduction for us, even though the bank still gets taxed on the interest an individual pays to the bank.
> 
> Just another example of where consumers are getting ripped off.




Allowing every individual to claim personal expenses is a no-win for everybody except accountants. About the only personal expense that might be justifiable is the cost of transport to and from work. Everything else (I think) would be a minefield, incurring huge compliance and monitoring costs and subject to enormous rorting.

The end result would be a drop in the overall tax take which could only be recovered by increasing the tax rate for everybody.


----------



## luutzu (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Let me give you an example of how getting rid of the Capital Gains tax would cause Mum and Dad Investors to be subjected to heavy double taxation.
> 
> If a "Mum and Dad" decided 10 years ago to buy some Woolworths shares they would have paid around $23.40 if they bought well.
> 
> ...





hmmmm... if WOW after tax earning adds to $16.37 a share; paid dividends and retained $6.36.

But then that imaginary mum and dad investor only gain $3.10 share... arne't they then making a capital loss. That's according to your logic right?

Maybe taxpayers should pay those mum and pop for their losses.

btw, how many Aussie Mum and Dad investors are there out there? And I don't mean "investors" through their superfund. Not that many.

All these CGT business is quite simple: It's a very nice and complicated way to redefine what income is and how much each type of income is to be taxed.

The rich make a substantial amount of their income through capital gains - trust funds, inheritance, property and the stock market.

So those are obviously not "real" income, they're imaginary income with real money and should be treated differently to be fair.

The kind of income that the poor slobs earn breaking their backs... that's real income and should be tax right and proper - to be fair.

cool?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> About the only personal expense that might be justifiable is the cost of transport to and from work.




Yes, why shouldn't transport to and from work be deductible ? It's an expense of earning an income. It's too hard for the ATO apparently, even though they can handle all those company cars.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> hmmmm... if WOW after tax earning adds to $16.37 a share; paid dividends and retained $6.36.
> 
> But then that imaginary mum and dad investor only gain $3.10 share... arne't they then making a capital loss. That's according to your logic right?
> 
> Maybe taxpayers should pay those mum and pop for their losses.




I guess technically they have made a capital loss, or atleast haven't had the additional capital they added via retained earnings recognised, but you win some you lose some, the 50% CGT Discount atleast prevents some of their over taxation.




luutzu said:


> btw, how many Aussie Mum and Dad investors are there out there? And I don't mean "investors" through their superfund. Not that many.




303,344 holding less than 1000 shares directly, about 66% of Woolworths share holders.

Even more in super funds (not sure why you think they don't count)



luutzu said:


> The rich make a substantial amount of their income through capital gains - trust funds, inheritance, property and the stock market.
> 
> So those are obviously not "real" income, they're imaginary income with real money and should be treated differently to be fair.




Some of the capital gain is genuine wealth creation, and should be taxed, hence why I am not calling for a 100% discount.

But surely you can't be silly enough to believe all capital gains are making you richer.

Lets say you bought a can of coke in the year 2000 for $1, and you kept it stored in a way it would never perish, and now you can sell it for $2.

Have you made a genuine gain? are you actually richer?

If you sold it for it's market price of $2, you haven't gotten richer because you would now have to outlay $2 to buy another can later.

But to make matters worse, you have to pay CGT, so you only end up getting $1.85 (with the discount) or $1.70 (without discount).

You have actually gone backwards, you couldn't even afford to replace the can, because the government has actually taken you capital, because there was no genuine wealth creation only inflation, but the tax was real.

What I am saying is that in some cases the capital gain is real, in others its not. in a lot of cases the capital gain is a mix of

1, Real wealth creation,
2, retained earnings and
3, inflation.

having the discount allows 1 to be taxed, why also allowing 2 and 3 to not get taxed.


----------



## luutzu (25 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I guess technically they have made a capital loss, or atleast haven't had the additional capital they added via retained earnings recognised, but you win some you lose some, the 50% CGT Discount atleast prevents some of their over taxation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





So back to what SirR was saying, why are capitalists such a protected specie?

And you can't deny that their wealth and interests are highly protected.

An average Joe earning an extra 2% on last year's aren't really earning anything extra. So why are wages not giving some sort of discount to ease the pain of inflation?

Or a depositor's putting their after-taxed earning into a bank, it earn interests but that interest is taxable at the full amount, not at a discount like capital gains.

Or why does a property owner getting the same capital gain freebie when most often, their rental yield are below their costs and the taxpayers have to give them discounts in their tax claims.


There's a whole bunch of reasons, ranging from motivating the poor to get rich [because the poor just don't have the motivation to wanna get rich]; to job creations to this and that incentives and fair go for the Aussie battlers.

All boils down to certain class of people make certain rules to benefit themselves and their friends. The rest will just have to either get with the programme [then see nothing wrong with it], or "complain" and remain poor.


----------



## Value Collector (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> So back to what SirR was saying, why are capitalists such a protected specie?
> 
> And you can't deny that their wealth and interests are highly protected.
> 
> Or a depositor's putting their after-taxed earning into a bank, it earn interests but that interest is taxable at the full amount, not at a discount like capital gains.




The Average depositor is actually the protected species.

If you have deposit with a bank, before you lose a single 1 cent, the Shareholders will lose 100% of their equity, the Bondholders will lose 100% of their bonds, The other debt holders will lose 100%, then the government/taxpayers steps in and guarantees the deposit.

So the depositor is taking no investment risk, so earns no investment return, but they get interest it offset inflation.



luutzu said:


> An average Joe earning an extra 2% on last year's aren't really earning anything extra. So why are wages not giving some sort of discount to ease the pain of inflation?




If they are doing the same work, why should they earn anything extra, if its just an inflation adjustment, thats just recognising that if they could buy a coke for 5 mins labour last year, we want them to be able to still be able to afford the same coke for the same labour.

There is actually no difference between recognising that a workers wage is not going to buy the same amount of stuff next year, so the system needs to raise wages and increase the tax free threshold etc, and recognising that an investors capital is not going to buy the same amount of stuff, so part of the gain is not a real "gain"

Especially when you factor in retained earnings.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> so the system needs to raise wages and increase the tax free threshold etc,




But the tax free threshold is not adjusted for inflation whereas investors get a notional adjustment which may be way higher that actual inflation.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The Average depositor is actually the protected species.
> 
> If you have deposit with a bank, before you lose a single 1 cent, the Shareholders will lose 100% of their equity, the Bondholders will lose 100% of their bonds, The other debt holders will lose 100%, then the government/taxpayers steps in and guarantees the deposit.
> 
> So the depositor is taking no investment risk, so earns no investment return, but they get interest it offset inflation.




You have that backwards there.

A gov't deposit guarantee is an insurance for the banks - at zero cost to the banks.

The bank uses that insurance and can "take risk" with people's deposits. If the "risks" paid off, they keep the profit, if it goes to heck, the gov't will step in.

If you remove that gov't deposit guarantee, how many people do you reckon would just deposit their savings at just any bank? They'll make sure that the bank don't get creative with their deposits. Just the old and usual banking business of lending deposits to local home owners and small businesses. Nothing fancy or risky.

A gov't backed guarantee get depositors cash in, lots of it. It also permit the bank to tell other lenders of theirs that the gov't will bail them out in case anything ever happen, so don't worry about it. In doing so, they can borrow for less as the risk is practically taken on by the gov't.

Who is this nice and generous gov't? Friends and future consultants having the people's mandate to handle the people's money. 






Value Collector said:


> If they are doing the same work, why should they earn anything extra, if its just an inflation adjustment, thats just recognising that if they could buy a coke for 5 mins labour last year, we want them to be able to still be able to afford the same coke for the same labour.
> 
> There is actually no difference between recognising that a workers wage is not going to buy the same amount of stuff next year, so the system needs to raise wages and increase the tax free threshold etc, and recognising that an investors capital is not going to buy the same amount of stuff, so part of the gain is not a real "gain"
> 
> Especially when you factor in retained earnings.




Most workers, even uni graduates, do not see a 2 or 3% pay rise as merely keeping up with inflation dude.

I know a few guys who were so happy they went out to celebrate when they got an annual raise like that.

And it's never sold that way by HR anyway. New pay "rise", new responsibilities.


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## SirRumpole (26 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The Average depositor is actually the protected species.




For good reason. The whole financial system depends on the "Average Depositor". If people don't trust banks then they won't deposit their money, businesses won't get loans and everything stops.

If investors don't invest in residential housing, the worse thing that will happen is that they become affordable for the mums and Dads again.


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## McLovin (26 February 2017)

Get rid of negative gearing and cut income taxes. Don't let the government expand it's revenue base.


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## luutzu (26 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> For good reason. The whole financial system depends on the "Average Depositor". If people don't trust banks then they won't deposit their money, businesses won't get loans and everything stops.
> 
> If investors don't invest in residential housing, the worse thing that will happen is that they become affordable for the mums and Dads again.





I heard of an investor who bought a pretty pricey house but decided not to rent it out at all. Just leave it empty. He can claim a loss on it anyway. That and no tenant mean less repair and maintenance.


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## SirRumpole (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I heard of an investor who bought a pretty pricey house but decided not to rent it out at all. Just leave it empty. He can claim a loss on it anyway. That and no tenant mean less repair and maintenance.




Sure , no income from it gives a bigger tax loss. Not sure how long the ATO will let him get away with it though.


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## luutzu (26 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure , no income from it gives a bigger tax loss. Not sure how long the ATO will let him get away with it though.




Maybe he flipped it after 12 months. But yea, heard that from an uncle saying how his wife's sister sold their house it's never rented out or lived in after.

We then go on about a house unoccupied would deteriorate more quickly since the air won't flow and pests and rubbish would collect etc. But I guess that's just poor men talking


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## SirRumpole (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Maybe he flipped it after 12 months. But yea, heard that from an uncle saying how his wife's sister sold their house it's never rented out or lived in after.
> 
> We then go on about a house unoccupied would deteriorate more quickly since the air won't flow and pests and rubbish would collect etc. But I guess that's just poor men talking




I'm sure they would have cleaners around regularly. Another tax deduction you know.


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## luutzu (26 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure they would have cleaners around regularly. Another tax deduction you know.





Oh yea. Dam! 

Been reading a bit about Murdoch and the guy practically built his empire on taxpayers' dole.

He would borrow and leverage the heck out of his balance sheet, overpay for companies of strategic importance... knowing that it'll lose money in the first few years... But that's alright because he can claim those losses against other profitable operations. 

That's why the likes of GE, Newscorp somehow managed to not pay any income tax. And these are the old low-hanging fruits... there's all those other means plebs like us couldn't even imagine is possible.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> But that's alright because he can claim those losses against other profitable operations.




Yes, that's a dodge allright.

Maybe if people could only claim deductions against a particular asset. eg if you owned a rental property you could only claim interest expense against the income from that asset. If you made a loss on that asset, tough you have to write it off and not claim it against other income.

It's not up to the taxpayer to subside loss making assets, it's up to the shareholders.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But the tax free threshold is not adjusted for inflation whereas investors get a notional adjustment which may be way higher that actual inflation.




It has generally risen over time, its much higher than it was when I entered the work force.


luutzu said:


> You have that backwards there.
> 
> 
> .





No I don't, your money at the bank is guaranteed by the government.

How much return to you think a depositor deserves when their position is not only the safest and most senior of all the people in the banks capital structure, but their position is also guaranteed by the government?

thats an actual question, obviously expected returns need to be highest for those who's funds are least secured i.e. equity holders, and reduced through the positions such as bond holders, unsecured deposits etc.

So how much does a person first inline to claim assets with a government guarantee deserve to earn?

I think no real "wealth creation", if they earned just enough interest to cover inflation, that would be fair?



SirRumpole said:


> For good reason. The whole financial system depends on the "Average Depositor". If people don't trust banks then they won't deposit their money, businesses won't get loans and everything stops.
> 
> If investors don't invest in residential housing, the worse thing that will happen is that they become affordable for the mums and Dads again.




Yes, but their level of risk is practically zero, so they don't deserve big profits, they deserve to have their money kept safe, and have enough interest to protect it from inflation, if they want to generate wealth, there is way to move up the chain into higher risk/reward areas.



luutzu said:


> I heard of an investor who bought a pretty pricey house but decided not to rent it out at all. Just leave it empty. He can claim a loss on it anyway. That and no tenant mean less repair and maintenance.




No he can't, vacant property is not a tax deduction.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, but their level of risk is practically zero, so they don't deserve big profits,




And they don't get big profits , bank interest rates are barely at the level of inflation.



> No he can't, vacant property is not a tax deduction.




Yes and no. If the property is listed for rent but there are no takers then expenses are still deductible.

All an owner has to do is set the rent so high that no one can afford it, and bingo they get deductions against no income.



> Mr Barbara said if the property stood empty while you had it listed with a real estate agent in the process of looking for a tenant, all the expenses would be allowed for a tax deduction.
> 
> He cited some of his clients in north Queensland who had been unable to find renters for their older property given a massive new development next door that was able to offer cheaper rent and newer premises.
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And they don't get big profits , bank interest rates are barely at the level of inflation.
> .





Yes, which Is about where they should be.



SirRumpole said:


> And they don't get big profits , bank interest rates are barely at the level of inflation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If someone wants to do something dumb and lose money, let them.

losing $1, so that you can claim back a 30 cent refund is hardly a way to riches.


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## SirRumpole (27 February 2017)

Negative gearing is creating empty residences and artificial scarcity.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/negat...-and-artificial-scarcity-20160324-gnqoeb.html



"
_This reflects the dominant driver of negative gearing in which capital gain is the main objective, not the rental yield that you would expect from a positively geared property. Unsurprisingly, on the fringe where there can be less expectation of capital gains, there are much lower rates of empty dwellings.

Together these points highlight some of the perverse outcomes that current tax and housing policy settings are driving in Australian cities.

The structure of the housing market is driving a mismatch between the supply of housing and housing need. This only further exacerbates the emerging spatial inequalities experienced in our major cities, driving unaffordability in central, well connected and serviced parts of the city. This is a supply crisis driven not by the planning system, but by a concentration of empty and under-utilised housing.

This trend is likely to have worsened since 2011, as more housing is being delivered precisely in the locations where there appears to be a concentration of homes standing empty. Housing supply is being increasingly driven by a property investment market that is failing community expectations of affordable homes in places people might want to, let alone need to, live. Losses against a rental investment can be offset by negative gearing and resulting capital gains taxed at a reduced rate when the property is eventually sold.

*Leaving housing empty is both profitable and subsidised by government. This is taxation lunacy and a national scandal.*

Moreover, the failure of governments to acknowledge the pervasive prevalence of empty homes only adds to the ongoing affordability crisis. Other countries take a less sanguine approach to owners deliberately leaving properties vacant when there is a clear housing shortage, often by imposing higher rates or property taxes on housing known to be empty for long periods.

Until such time as we act decisively on this issue, arguments about the need for less planning to support increased housing supply will continue to ring hollow. Let's start to address both the housing supply and the housing affordability problems by solving the empty homes problem first."_


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## SirRumpole (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If someone wants to do something dumb and lose money, let them.




Not on the taxpayers purse thank you.


----------



## luutzu (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It has generally risen over time, its much higher than it was when I entered the work force.
> 
> 
> No I don't, your money at the bank is guaranteed by the government.
> ...




If Berkshire were to insure the banks the way our gov't guarantee banks depositors their deposits, how much you reckon Buffett would charge for that? Not free that's for sure.

I haven't look, but does the banks pay any premium to the gov't for that insurance? 

Anyway, how is it risk-free to deposits? It's no-risk because the gov't will guarantee it in case the bank goes. That's not risk-free, there's a risk but big brother will do the bank's right, taking all risks that are there away from the bank. Encouraging people to do business with them.

Does the gov't also guarantee your average mom and pop business? Would the gov't write a guarantee covering all liabilities mom and pop incurred but can't pay later? No.


Dude, in the normal world, it is a given that when depositors entrust money to the bank, it is to be safe and secured. 

You can't make it out to be some sort of benevolence that the bank take deposits and the gov't guaranteeing its safety... can't take that as doing depositors a favour. Not when the banks turn around and lend those deposits at twice the "cost" on a risk-free case.


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## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Not on the taxpayers purse thank you.



tax payers don't actually hand money over.



luutzu said:


> I haven't look, but does the banks pay any premium to the gov't for that insurance?
> 
> .





The reserve Bank pays its profits to government, so the government is extracting profits from the banking system, not to mention all the stamp duties on loans, and the countless other benefits to society by having a properly functioning banking system.



luutzu said:


> Anyway, how is it risk-free to deposits?





where is the risk?

What is the risk compared to say just storing the $100K at your house? the bank has far less risk, and the interest you get even gets rid of inflation risk.

Banks offer a free or low cost place to store your money (so you don't have to buy a safe), gives you free options to transfer it around the country, protect it from inflation via a nominal interest payment, and guarantee it with their entire balance sheet and the government guarantee it to.



luutzu said:


> Does the gov't also guarantee your average mom and pop business? Would the gov't write a guarantee covering all liabilities mom and pop incurred but can't pay later? No.
> 
> 
> .





No the government doesn't really guarantee the equity holders of any business, hence why I think its fair that investors in equity deserve a much higher return than depositors.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> .
> 
> 
> Dude, in the normal world, it is a given that when depositors entrust money to the bank, it is to be safe and secured.




Ofcourse, they are not subject to any of the normal risks of business, hence why its silly to compare their income etc with that of investors, which is what you were trying to do, when you were saying "why don't depositors get this" "why don't savers get that"


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## luutzu (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Ofcourse, they are not subject to any of the normal risks of business, hence why its silly to compare their income etc with that of investors, which is what you were trying to do, when you were saying "why don't depositors get this" "why don't savers get that"




So you think it's fair that a depositor would put their savings into a bank and be happy and thankful that their deposit is safe? Everything else is a bonus?

Then out of the bank's generosity, they'll pay an interest somewhere slightly below inflation. What more should be asked for.

Would you deposit money into my account on the same term? That if I invest, the profits I get to keep. But if I were to lose it, the gov't [using taxpayers cash] pay you for me. 

Sounds fair yea?

Fair enough to say that that's how to world works. But honestly, the banks and the gov't are screwing the poor over in more ways than one. Legal, sure. Fair it is not.


----------



## luutzu (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> tax payers don't actually hand money over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





What does the RBA's profit got to do with the gov't guarantee? Nothing.

The gov't doesn't guarantee the bank's shareholders, but there's no difference in it guaranteeing the depositors. Serve the same purpose as far as the shareholders are concern.

Say I run a bank... the gov't guarantee that any deposit [up to $100K or something] will not be lost even if my bank goes broke. 

Doesn't that just mean my bank is more attractive to depositors now? That all the potential risks my customers and lenders would face, the gov't will cover me for it? Same thing man.

You can dance around how nice it is that the banks are keeping my deposit safe, saving me the trouble of buying a safe etc.... Dude, when people make a deposit at a bank, it is just common sense that their cash be kept safe. That's just a given.

Now, what price should be paid for using people's money is also another given. And if you think that keeping it safe and paying jack for their money is fair... well, that's just the bankers talking.

It's incredible that somehow it's fair for banks to pay diddly on people's savings. 

First, most of the depositors are what we'd call widows and orphans yea? Poor people. People without a portfolio or a trust somewhere.

So they put what little savings they have into the bank, the bank pays them practically zero, and are saying that these depositors should be grateful for it as they're not taking on any risk.

There are risks... just that the gov't, using taxpayers money, will bail the bankers out if the risk materialises. 

anyway.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> tax payers don't actually hand money over.




The tax intake is reduced which means government has to make up money another way like hiking the GST.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> So you think it's fair that a depositor would put their savings into a bank and be happy and thankful that their deposit is safe? Everything else is a bonus?




Sure why not?

safety is usually exactly what they want, they don't want any business risk or fluctuation, they want to be assured their money is there when they want it, they aren't investors.

If they want investment returns they an move up the capital structure of the bank, into other deposits such as bonds, hybrids or other debt securities with higher interest.



> Then out of the bank's generosity, they'll pay an interest somewhere slightly below inflation. What more should be asked for.




well compare that to putting it in a safe at your home, you wouldn't earn any interest, you would have much higher risk, and the cost of buying a safe.



> Would you deposit money into my account on the same term? That if I invest, the profits I get to keep. But if I were to lose it, the gov't [using taxpayers cash] pay you for me.




look at the question from the other side.

If me and you had an investment operation e.g. a pizza shop.

We put in 50% of the capital each, but I had a prior claim to the real estate and all the equipment and any other assets if we had to shut down, would you accept that we should split the profits 50/50 if the venture goes well?.

Given that I am in a far more secured position, I think my profits should be limited and you should earn a higher return for the added risk you have taken on, maybe give me a preference share that earns say 10% and any profits in excess of that accrue to you.

Sounds fair yea?


> Fair enough to say that that's how to world works. But honestly, the banks and the gov't are screwing the poor over in more ways than one. Legal, sure. Fair it is not.




You are yet to show how any of the things we are discussing are "the banks and the gov't are screwing the poor"


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The gov't doesn't guarantee the bank's shareholders, but there's no difference in it guaranteeing the depositors. Serve the same purpose as far as the shareholders are concern.





Thats not true, its easy for the banks share holders to lose equity, while the depositors lose nothing, the risk is all on the shareholders.


> Say I run a bank... the gov't guarantee that any deposit [up to $100K or something] will not be lost even if my bank goes broke.
> 
> Doesn't that just mean my bank is more attractive to depositors now? That all the potential risks my customers and lenders would face, the gov't will cover me for it? Same thing man.




It doesn't stop you losing your capital



> Dude, when people make a deposit at a bank, it is just common sense that their cash be kept safe. That's just a given.




security guards aren't free, neither are vaults, if it wasn't for the banks lending operations, how much would the banks deposit keeping service cost?

Considering depositors currently get it for free, thats a good service in my eyes, its a real benefit,


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The tax intake is reduced which means government has to make up money another way like hiking the GST.




didn't you just admit before one guys expense is another guys revenue.

e.g., that "loss" the silly negative gearing guy experiences is adding revenue to the income statement of the banks, banks staff and depositors, where it will be taxed


----------



## luutzu (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Thats not true, its easy for the banks share holders to lose equity, while the depositors lose nothing, the risk is all on the shareholders.
> 
> 
> It doesn't stop you losing your capital
> ...




So you got a big chunk of the banks stock ey? 

No, the risk is also on the depositors... just it's removed because the gov't guarantees it. That mean the banks can risk depositors' cash, make and keep profit while they can. And if it crashes, the gov't steps in.

And the gov't don't just guarantee deposits. There's an underlying assumption that if the bank is big enough, it will never fail. Not because it won't, but because the gov't will bail them out.


Security guards aren't free... sure. But that doesn't mean the bank can pays depositors nothing and calls it fair.

it's their costs of business to keep the cash safe. That's why people put cash with them. And that's also why people do not expect the earn the same rate of interests the bank does when it lends their cash out to others.

But a real zero interest rate? Come on mate. That's eating people's lunch and asking them to be thankful for it.


----------



## luutzu (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Sure why not?
> 
> safety is usually exactly what they want, they don't want any business risk or fluctuation, they want to be assured their money is there when they want it, they aren't investors.
> 
> ...





Even my 7 year old knows the banks are screwing people. That's why she doesn't want to deposit her savings at the bank. 

She was like, what? The bank take my money and lend it to people so they can make money, but they're only paying me $2 a year? 


Deposits are quite different to the pizza shop example though. 

Depositors aren't expecting all the profit the bank makes on their money, just maybe a little bit above zero real interest. Asking for too much?

---------

How aren't the poor/savers not being screwed?

Businesses tend to borrow more than they lend. Who does it profit to make the costs of borrowing practically zero?


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> So you got a big chunk of the banks stock ey?




Nope, except indirectly in an asx200 index fund and through Berkshire Hathaway.



> No, the risk is also on the depositors... just it's removed because the gov't guarantees it. That mean the banks can risk depositors' cash, make and keep profit while they can. And if it crashes, the gov't steps in.




The risk is reduced due to depositors being in the most senior position, with all sorts of equity holders and debt holders sitting below them in the capital structure, and then the guarantee practically eliminates the remaining risk.



> And the gov't don't just guarantee deposits. There's an underlying assumption that if the bank is big enough, it will never fail. Not because it won't, but because the gov't will bail them out.




So what, that doesn't provide protection to equity holders or stop bond holders etc taking haircuts in the reorganisation 




> Security guards aren't free... sure. But that doesn't mean the bank can pays depositors nothing and calls it fair.




they don't pay nothing, they pay interest.

But can you estimate how much a company that provided all the cash handling and storage services a bank does, would have to charge customers if it didn't operate the other areas?

because that cost (saving) plus the interest earned is the depositors benefit.





> But a real zero interest rate?




I never said a zero interest rate, I said enough interest to cover inflation.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Depositors aren't expecting all the profit the bank makes on their money, just maybe a little bit above zero real interest. Asking for too much?
> 
> ---------





How much do you think the banks earn after all their costs?

Have you ever seen the net interest margin? CBA is considered one of the best run banks and its 2.11% and the they have to pay all their expenses from that interest margin.

So tell me again,  how much you want to increase the depositors interest?


----------



## SirRumpole (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Have you ever seen the net interest margin? CBA is considered one of the best run banks and its 2.11% and the they have to pay all their expenses from that interest margin.




You are not seriously complaining about bank's profits are you ?


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are not seriously complaining about bank's profits are you ?




Thats not the point, the claim being made is that the interest paid to depositors is not high enough, I am simply saying the net interest margin is only 2.11%, and from that the bank has to pay all its expenses.

Ofcourse bank profits are large because the banks are large businesses, they serve large amounts of customers, in multiple countries, earning revenue by providing many different services, but to say profits come from ripping of depositors is just wrong.

As I said, imagine how much a company that provided all the cash handling/storage services that banks do would have to charge to customers if it didn't operate the bank lending side of things.

Depositors are getting a good deal


----------



## luutzu (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Thats not the point, the claim being made is that the interest paid to depositors is not high enough, I am simply saying the net interest margin is only 2.11%, and from that the bank has to pay all its expenses.
> 
> Ofcourse bank profits are large because the banks are large businesses, they serve large amounts of customers, in multiple countries, earning revenue by providing many different services, but to say profits come from ripping of depositors is just wrong.
> 
> ...




I know right? Having a bank keeping their money all safe, and paying them enough just to maybe make up for inflation.

Would any banker make the same deal with another banker? Why not?

It's a bit better to take deposits, paid 1.7 to 2%, then charge a small business some 5%, a long term mortgage 3.8%.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I know right? Having a bank keeping their money all safe, and paying them enough just to maybe make up for inflation.
> 
> Would any banker make the same deal with another banker? Why not?
> 
> It's a bit better to take deposits, paid 1.7 to 2%, then charge a small business some 5%, a long term mortgage 3.8%.




Actually they do, the deposits banks make with the central banks sometimes make no interest or very little.

Sometimes the government bonds they are forced to hold as capital actually have negative interest rates.

In fact due to the negative interest rates some of his insurance companies like Munich RE are facing,  Warren Buffett was discussing taking physical cash and putting it in a vault some where rather than have it in government bonds.

So yes, you can bet MUNICH RE, wishes it could find a place to store cash with enough interest to cover inflation.

You have to remember not all those small businesses are going to pay the loans back, and depositors aren't going to want to hear about those losses, so to get a net interest margin of 2.11%, you are going to have to have a much wider interest margin on loans, especially considering you can't lend out all the cash you hold, and some of it is lent out interest free.


----------



## luutzu (27 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Actually they do, the deposits banks make with the central banks sometimes make no interest or very little.
> 
> Sometimes the government bonds they are forced to hold as capital actually have negative interest rates.
> 
> ...




Alright, I'll have to look more into this because you're making shedding a tear or two for the banks now.

I mean, them making billions of profit a year is razor thin margin it's a miracle they're still in business.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So the depositor is taking no investment risk, so earns no investment return, but they get interest it offset inflation.




If you are talking about risk, investors who borrow money to start businesses are risking other people's money not theirs. Those other people are the bank depositors.

If the business goes belly up they just declare themselves bankrupt and walk away, leaving the banks (with their depositor's money) to fight over a few crumbs of assets that may be left.

So therefore if the depositor's money is at risk, they should receive an interest rate in proportion to the profit that the bank makes.


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If you are talking about risk, investors who borrow money to start businesses are risking other people's money not theirs. Those other people are the bank depositors.
> 
> If the business goes belly up they just declare themselves bankrupt and walk away, leaving the banks (with their depositor's money) to fight over a few crumbs of assets that may be left.
> 
> So therefore if the depositor's money is at risk, they should receive an interest rate in proportion to the profit that the bank makes.




If a Company goes bankrupt, the losses follow a set order something like this follows.

1, Ordinary Share holders will absorb all losses until their equity is 100% wiped out

2, preference share holders and other equity holders then absorb remaining losses until their equity is wiped out 100%

3, Company bond holders then absorb remaining losses until their equity is wiped out 100%

4, Unsecured debtors then absorb remaining losses until their equity is wiped out 100%

5, Then after all those other levels have been wiped out the losses pass to the Bank, where it would be absorbed by the banks operating income.

*If the loss was bigger than could be absorbed by the banks operating income, the process starts again at the bank.*

6, the banks capital is drawn down and Bank shareholders then will absorb all losses until their equity 100% wiped out

7, Bank preference share holders and other equity holders then absorb remaining losses until their equity is wiped out 100%

8, Bank bond holders then absorb remaining losses until their equity is wiped out 100%

9, All the other types of unsecured bank funding absorb remaining losses until their equity is wiped out 100%

10, Now the deposits are at risk, but the government guarantee kicks in and the government absorbs losses

11,* Now only after all those other levels have been wiped out do the depositors face losing some of their deposit.*


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So therefore if the depositor's money is at risk, they should receive an interest rate in proportion to the profit that the bank makes.




Given the outline of the way losses are absorbed by the capital structure in order of seniority that I listed above. do you really think level 6 (bank shareholders) and level 11 (depositors) deserve to earn the same amount?

It's the banks shareholders taking most of the risk, they are the first to lose, then there is all sorts of other levels (even the government) that take losses before a depositor.

A depositor does not want to take any losses, ever, which is fine, we have set the system up to give them that security, but due to that security they do not deserve to earn "Investment returns"

I mean look at all the levels in between level 1 (company shareholders) and level 11.

If you own Woolworths shares (or any other), you are operating at level 1, the first to lose, a cash deposit is level 11, the last to lose, the system needs people investing at all levels, but level 1 needs to have the highest possible return, other wise the economy doesn't function.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> but level 1 needs to have the highest possible return, other wise the economy doesn't function.




The system won't function either if depositors take their money out of banks and invest them in government bonds or the sharemarket as there will be less money to lend and interest rates for borrowers will rise.

Quid pro quo.


----------



## Tisme (28 February 2017)

You guys see any end in site with this one, or should I just ignore it for a while? 

How about some good 'ol fashioned polly bashing instead?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You guys see any end in site with this one, or should I just ignore it for a while?
> 
> How about some good 'ol fashioned polly bashing instead?




I've just about finished, but VC can't help himself.


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The system won't function either if depositors take their money out of banks and invest them in government bonds or the sharemarket as there will be less money to lend and interest rates for borrowers will rise.
> 
> Quid pro quo.




If all the deposits disappeared and were instead invested into equity, the outcome would be the same.

For example, most companies on the sharemarket borrow to grow, because they don't have enough share holders equity to fund growth, if there was a trend of people moving away from cash into equity investments such as shares, it would mean companies would rely less on borrowing.

e.g., whether a company borrows $1million or issues $1million in new shares doesn't really matter to a companies growth.

But, there will always be people that want higher returns and are willing to take higher risk, and others that want absolute safety, those that demand absolute safety don't deserve high returns.

The current system serves both areas well.


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## SirRumpole (28 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> But, there will always be people that want higher returns and are willing to take higher risk, and others that want absolute safety, those that demand absolute safety don't deserve high returns.




Of course, but depositors don't deserve negative real returns either for supplying money to investors.


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course, but depositors don't deserve negative real returns either for supplying money to investors.




As I said I think a system that pays just enough interest to cover inflation is fine.

Offering a free money storage service, that also protects your money from inflation is a good deal.

as I said, how much would a company have to charge to offer that service if they weren't running the banking side?, just storing cash and operating arms etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Offering a free money storage service, that also protects your money from inflation is a good deal.




Oh come on, you don't really understand do you ?

It's not the shareholders money that banks lend, it's the depositor's money. No depositors, no lending, no interest margins, no profit for shareholders. If banks want to see depositor's money disappearing into government bonds, then keep ripping them off.

And btw, the government guarantee only goes up to deposits of $250,000. That's a pretty small sum for retirement nest eggs these days


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh come on, you don't really understand do you ?
> 
> It's not the shareholders money that banks lend, it's the depositor's money.




Yes but its you that doesn't understand.

The bank is offering depositors 3 services.

1, Safe storage of cash
2, Transfering, transactions and access to funds from a system of ATM's
3, Interest that provides an inflation hedge.

(these benefits cost money, a depositor would have to pay for these if they weren't in the banking system, so need to be included in you earnings/benefits calculations)


Yes, the bank makes use of the depositors funds, thats how they are able to offer those services for free, If they want more interest and benefits provided, they can move their funds up the capital structure into other areas that provide more return and benefits.

Listen to what Warren says here at the 1.30 mark.

He would be happy if his cash pile at his company and the insurance businesses could be stored at an after tax rate that matched inflation, thats all he is really looking for on his cash, but its not possible at the moment, in the USA and Europe, Australian depositors have it pretty good.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2017)

OK, I'll leave it there. Thanks for the discussion, some interesting points raised.

It seems like Warren was advising people to stick their cash in their mattresses. If they did, then there would be a run on banks and the system would collapse.


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems like Warren was advising people to stick their cash in their mattresses.




Obviously thats a metaphor, Basically he is saying if the cost of storing cash is to high, you should find a cheaper way of storing it, but thats an admission that the banks are offering a good service, and its just a discussion on price.

Warren only complains when the cost of storing cash is to high, he doesn't complain that the return on ash is to low, because he doesn't really believe cash is an investment.


----------



## Ves (28 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes but its you that doesn't understand.
> 
> The bank is offering depositors 3 services.
> 
> ...



The problem is that banks don't always offer their services for free - both directly and indirectly.

Whilst there are a few accounts around that are 'free'  there are many other types of accounts that do have fees.

Your comment about inflation hedging is interesting for two reasons.  Firstly, because without an increasing monetary supply  (which by definition the banks help create) there would be no need for an inflation hedge.   Secondly,  whilst I agree,  and if you ignore tax (please don't), that having cash in the bank has (mostly) beaten inflation in Australia for the last 20 years,  I would be very careful forecasting this into the future.  If anything it's hindsight bias.  It doesn't always happen  (just look at the last 12-18 months).

There's also another indirect cost - whether you are a depositor or not - and that's implicit government assistance in the event that the **** hits the fan and the banks collapse.  It's possible that it may not happen,  but as with any risk,  if it does the cost to the public will be enormous.  As the GFC showed us in America and parts of Europe the public had to pay for the greed of a few individuals. That's a very real cost.  One that you probably would not see on your bank statement,  but it's there.


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2017)

Ves said:


> The problem is that banks don't always offer their services for free - both directly and indirectly.
> 
> Whilst there are a few accounts around that are 'free'  there are many other types of accounts that do have fees.
> 
> ...




If you are doing enough business with the bank that they are making money from you, eg. Have decent deposits or loans, then you shouldn't be paying any account keeping fees, obviously like a casino in Vegas, the free drinks stop when you stop playing.

The government earns bucket loads of earnings off the banking industry, yet it offers no capital into the system, if all it has to do is provide a guarantee (which is just a piece of paper until it gets used) to keep the tax revenue flowing I think they are getting a good deal.

The "public" actually made a lot of good money due to the gfc "bail outs", they didn't end up being s cost.


----------



## luutzu (28 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If you are doing enough business with the bank that they are making money from you, eg. Have decent deposits or loans, then you shouldn't be paying any account keeping fees, obviously like a casino in Vegas, the free drinks stop when you stop playing.
> 
> The government earns bucket loads of earnings off the banking industry, yet it offers no capital into the system, if all it has to do is provide a guarantee (which is just a piece of paper until it gets used) to keep the tax revenue flowing I think they are getting a good deal.
> 
> The "public" actually made a lot of good money due to the gfc "bail outs", they didn't end up being s cost.




You opinions about how good depositors and taxpayers are having it over the banks has nothing to do with your bank holdings and the annual gift basket from Commsec, right? 

A gov't guarantee isn't "just a piece of paper" dude. It's an insurance, backed by the assets of the Australian gov't... and it's being given for free to the banks. 

And no, the RBA and taxes the gov't get from the banks... those are not the premium, the gov't would've gotten those anyway.

I mean, you're saying that an insurance is nothing... that's like saying a house insurance is useless, just a piece of paper. It is, until the house burnt down. And unlike most insurance companies, the gov't tend to pay on their promises.


----------



## luutzu (28 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes but its you that doesn't understand.
> 
> The bank is offering depositors 3 services.
> 
> ...






How many banks and financial institutions - ones that benefits a heck of a lot from low interest rates - does Berkshire owns? 

I'd imagine that his holdings in those banks, and the low debt driving the deals his Goldman Sachs, his investment arm at insurance companies etc. Those tend to ease the pain of his $70B in cash that's in low interest rate bank deposits, yah?

I don't think it's possible that Berkshire would just accept whatever rate the bank would give the average Joe with $1000 deposits. Not on Warren's billions mate. 

Maybe a radar on how out of touch you are with the normal everyday folks is when you think the depositors are having very good while the banks and their billions of profits are the ones really doing it tough.

I mean, using people's money for less than free; making loans and investments that aren't anywhere free; having the gov't giving free insurance policies... though business to be in man.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> How many banks and financial institutions - ones that benefits a heck of a lot from low interest rates - does Berkshire owns?
> 
> I'd imagine that his holdings in those banks, and the low debt driving the deals his Goldman Sachs, his investment arm at insurance companies etc. Those tend to ease the pain of his $70B in cash that's in low interest rate bank deposits, yah?
> 
> ...




Capital ratios affect bank profits more than interest rates, and capital ratios have been dropping, I don't think you actually look at banks very closely because other wise you would have noticed their return on equity has been getting squeezed.

Berkshire is currently earning about 0.25% on its cash, So the average Joe Aussie is doing better than Warren.

One thing I hate is people referencing "banks billions in profit" as if earning billions of dollars is some how immorral when you are serving millions of people, in multiple countries, offering multiple different products and services, with billions of equity invested.

I mean how much should Cba report as profit in your opinion?
And how much interest should they pay depositors?


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I know they aren't taxed like that, no one would accept that, but thats exactly how investors are taxed when they get taxed on capital gains.
> 
> Depreciation of assets is a real cost, and claiming depreciation on a property increases the capital gain charge later, it doesn't reduce it.
> 
> e.g., buy house for $200k, claim $50K depreciation, reduces cost base to $150K, sell it for $300K = $150K capital gain, when before it would have only been $100K




I've only just looked at this thread, but isn't the depreciation a tax deduction?
Therefore why wouldn't that tax deduction,be added to the capital gain?
It's a bit like saying a concessional super contribution, has paid some tax, so why should it pay any more?


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You opinions about how good depositors and taxpayers are having it over the banks has nothing to do with your bank holdings and the annual gift basket from Commsec, right?
> 
> A gov't guarantee isn't "just a piece of paper" dude. It's an insurance, backed by the assets of the Australian gov't... and it's being given for free to the banks.
> 
> ...



I  think the Australian Banking system is the only thing saving our ar$e, they run a very fine line between keeping funds up to borrowers, and giving depositors a competitive return.
They have trillions of dollars on loan and make billions of dollars profit, which 50% gets returned to the economy, check out how much money they have on loan and how much profit they make.lol
If you were lending money you would want some return, they have to get it to keep afloat, look at how much they have on their loan books.
I noticed Pauline isn't screaming for a banking Royal Commission, since she has been given a briefing, only cheap shot Billy keeps rolling that out.
Then guess what if he gets voted in, he will shut up too.
Cheap headlines, for the financial illiterate voter.IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I've only just looked at this thread, but isn't the depreciation a tax deduction?
> Therefore why wouldn't that tax deduction,be added to the capital gain?
> It's a bit like saying a concessional super contribution, has paid some tax, so why should it pay any more?




When you claim depreciation it's lowers the cost base used to calculate your capital gain, so you pay more capitals tax later.

For example,

If you buy a house for $200k and sell it for $300k, they use $200k as you original cost to work out your capital gain.

However, if you claim $50k depreciation, the will reduce your $200k original cost to $150k, so the capital gain will be higher than it would be if you never claim the depreciation.

I am not arguing against that, I think that's fair. I am just saying that the capital gains discount is fair, due to all the reason I have mentioned, eg double taxation of retained earnings, inflation not being genuine wealth creation so it's a tax on the original capital not actually earnings.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> When you claim depreciation it's lowers the cost base used to calculate your capital gain, so you pay more capitals tax later.
> 
> For example,
> 
> ...




Well yes, because you have had a tax deduction against the depreciation, same as the Government has a lot of say with regard your concessionally treated super contributions.
I'm sure the Government would love the situation, where there was no depreciation on property and also no tax free super contributions.lol


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Capital ratios affect bank profits more than interest rates, and capital ratios have been dropping, I don't think you actually look at banks very closely because other wise you would have noticed their return on equity has been getting squeezed.
> 
> Berkshire is currently earning about 0.25% on its cash, So the average Joe Aussie is doing better than Warren.
> 
> ...




How about they can keep their billions in profits *after* paying some real interests on depositor's money?

Too much? Money is worthless and "providing" a safe, some guards, ATMs for cheap/free is good enough?

Where in the world is it "fair" to take people's money, lend and play with it, keep the profit... and pay them practically nothing. 

Do we really need to examine the bank's brochures and CEO's messages to see how hard the banks are doing?

I actually heard Chomsky saying that the banks actually don't make any money. Not in their actual business of investing and stuff. All the profit they makes come from gov't guarantee and cheap money from taxpayers and depositors. 

So you know, maybe they ought to stop playing high risk games with people's deposit and just focus on re-lending it to local businesses and homeowners. that should keep the margin high and fat.


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I  think the Australian Banking system is the only thing saving our ar$e, they run a very fine line between keeping funds up to borrowers, and giving depositors a competitive return.
> They have trillions of dollars on loan and make billions of dollars profit, which 50% gets returned to the economy, check out how much money they have on loan and how much profit they make.lol
> If you were lending money you would want some return, they have to get it to keep afloat, look at how much they have on their loan books.
> I noticed Pauline isn't screaming for a banking Royal Commission, since she has been given a briefing, only cheap shot Billy keeps rolling that out.
> ...




Bank loans out expecting some profit, yes? So why aren't depositors lending out to them not getting any real return after tax? Even before tax in many cases.

Don't know... all I know is that a DollarMite account for kids earn around 2% a year if they do not withdraw anything during that year. But a business loan goes for 5.5% or so; a mortgage about 3.8%.

So if they're not making enough profit, or their margin is so thin... then maybe get back to basics; maybe reduce executive bonuses; maybe stop speculating and losing a bundle here and there.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> How about they can keep their billions in profits *after* paying some real interests on depositor's money?
> 
> Too much? Money is worthless and "providing" a safe, some guards, ATMs for cheap/free is good enough?
> 
> ...



Like I said the banks make billions of profits, but they lend trillions to make it and most people feel safe leaving their money in there.
It is a fine balance, but no one has to use them, save the money and buy for cash. Lots of migrants in the 50's did that, I think a lot of Asians do it now, but the Banks do have to make money to lend money and give people confidence to deposit money.
Just check out what happened in Greece, Italy, Spain, U.K, USA, during the height of the GFC


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> How about they can keep their billions in profits *after* paying some real interests on depositor's money?
> 
> Too much? Money is worthless and "providing" a safe, some guards, ATMs for cheap/free is good enough?
> 
> ...




So how much interest should a depositor earn?

And how much would you have reduced cba's earnings by last year to make their profit reasonable in your view?


----------



## bellenuit (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So how much interest should a depositor earn?
> 
> And how much would you have reduced cba's earnings by last year to make their profit reasonable in your view?




If you think their profits are unreasonably high, I assume you invest in them? If the unions think the same, then presumably the super funds under their control over allocated to CBA. Maybe the poor guy who hasn't excess funds to invest cannot take advantage of the excess profits of CBA, but surely fund managers, individual investors and government funds can.

But at the end of the day, those profits aren't guaranteed. And what may look good today may turn out to be a terrible investment tomorrow.

Unless you think the big 4 are colluding in some way to keep profits high, competition will ensure that they average overtime, with the most profit going to the most efficient. It's not as if Macquarie and ING aren't going to capitalise on any over charging (interest rates, fees etc.) and offer a product to undercut.

The more I read your posts, the more it appears to me that you thing that business is an enemy and the better they are as a business, the worst they are for society.

Capitalism has its faults, but the alternative...... enough said.


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Unless you think the big 4 are colluding in some way to keep profits high,




Now there is an idea. There are only 4 of them so it wouldn't be hard to do.


----------



## Tisme (1 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Now there is an idea. There are only 4 of them so it wouldn't be hard to do.




Tax by proxy. The higher the profits the higher the take by govt and nobody blames the govt for making policy that encourages it. It's one of the reasons the LNP want the ALP to stop using banks as a weapon in question time.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> The higher the profits the higher the take by govt and nobody blames the govt for making policy that encourages it




Providing the banks are not indulging in tax dodges which wouldn't be beyond the bounds of reality.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

Interesting Fact, there are 820,000 share holders owning Commonwealth bank shares, and some of those are super funds with 100's or 1000's of members, and some of the holdings are for couples where the are in one partners name.

Add to that the shareholders of the other big banks, and ownership of our banks is pretty spread out across the population, so they aren't just super rich folk taking advantage of society.





bellenuit said:


> If you think their profits are unreasonably high, I assume you invest in them?




The Next thing the person then says is, "Nah, shares are to risky", So straight away the person is admitting owning equity in businesses has a higher level of risk than their cash, but they can't seem to admit that this means the person holding the equity taking the most risk in the operation deserves a decent return.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> but they can't seem to admit that this means the person holding the equity taking the most risk in the operation deserves a decent return.




And the customers can get stuffed, which seems to be the attitude of a lot of businesses these days.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And the customers can get stuffed, which seems to be the attitude of a lot of businesses these days.




I bet most of the share holders are customers also.

I am not a CBA shareholder (I have been writing puts on them for 4 years trying to get some shares but haven't got any yet)

I am a CBA customer and I think they offer a great service, at CBA I have multiple bank accounts, Loans, term Deposits, Credit Cards, I Buy shares through commsec, My business has CBA Eftpos terminals, when I travel I use their travel money card, I have a bank guarantee.

I do lots of business through them, I have never felt like I was being ripped off, The relationship is mutual, I benefit from the products offered above.

They treat me well also.


----------



## Tisme (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I bet most of the share holders are customers also.
> 
> I am not a CBA shareholder (I have been writing puts on them for 4 years trying to get some shares but haven't got any yet)
> 
> ...



You're lucky, the brand I deal with has a bad habit of closing accounts and online access. I think they might have an IBM system running the show.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2017)

> I do lots of business through them, I have never felt like I was being ripped off, The relationship is mutual, I benefit from the products offered above.




My comment was wider than just banks, but you must be aware of legal actions taken against banks for bad financial advice and illegal fees to name just two.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/bank...ass-action-for-bad-advice-20140515-38dd2.html

http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2016/10/27/cba-customer-refunds/

Hardly  ethical behaviour.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Hardly  ethical behaviour.




Doesn't sound like a clear cut case to me, Some times investors that lose money just want blood, if the investments had gone well they would be bragging at BBQ's about how smart they were.

But even if this "Rogue" financial planner (Articles word, not mine), was doing the wrong thing, you can hardly Tar the entire company with the same brush.

I mean CBA has Multiple different businesses, and thousands of employees are you saying that all these businesses and staff are unethical.

At the end of the day, its the investors responsibility to understand what they are investing in, going to an advisor is not a licence for ignorance about where you money is going.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I mean CBA has Multiple different businesses, and thousands of employees are you saying that all these businesses and staff are unethical.




A company is responsible for the actions of its employees by clearly defining a corporate culture that determines how its employees treat their customers. That clearly wasn't done (or it was and the culture was to rip people off as much as possible) and the management and shareholders have to cop the consequences.



> At the end of the day, its the investors responsibility to understand what they are investing in, going to an advisor is not a licence for ignorance about where you money is going.




That's a logical fallacy. If you pay an expert for advice you expect that expert to serve your interests. You shouldn't have to have medical qualifications before you see a doctor, or a mechanical engineering degree before you see a car mechanic.


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So how much interest should a depositor earn?
> 
> And how much would you have reduced cba's earnings by last year to make their profit reasonable in your view?




How about Inflation +1%.

To say that a bank is being fair in paying practically nothing, less than nothing, for people's money... that's just absurd. That's special interest talking, not fairness.

Where do you get off saying depositors are getting a good deal because their money is safe and they get access to the ATM, and yea, NetBank and bank statements too.

First, those also costs money after a certain number of usage. Not free. Bank statement being posted does get a $2 charge. 

Don't mistake the fact that people have to put up with these because they have to, don't mistake that as them thinking it's fair or liking it. They have no choice, and the few banks that's left knew it.

It's just an abuse of their position.


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So how much interest should a depositor earn?
> 
> And how much would you have reduced cba's earnings by last year to make their profit reasonable in your view?




The banks can earn as many billions as it can, just why does depositors have to pay for it?

Should I now go and tell the banks to not pay me the 1.7% interests... all so they can be stronger and better help the Australian economy?


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said the banks make billions of profits, but they lend trillions to make it and most people feel safe leaving their money in there.
> It is a fine balance, but no one has to use them, save the money and buy for cash. Lots of migrants in the 50's did that, I think a lot of Asians do it now, but the Banks do have to make money to lend money and give people confidence to deposit money.
> Just check out what happened in Greece, Italy, Spain, U.K, USA, during the height of the GFC




Most people have to use the bank. To get paid from a job, to cash a cheque [unless you want a high fee to get cash out right away], to receive anything from the gov't... 

So banking isn't really an option in most cases.

Yes there's the option of not putting money in the bank; put it under the mattress and guard it.

But that's not good enough a reason to say that the bank provide security for your cash. Yes, that's its job. It's like when you lend me your money, I better keep it safe. I can't turn around and say, sorry dude I lost your cash... we're cool?

So the bank can't use the very basic requirement for people lending it money to justify its gouging. 

I mean, say you were to lend me, a bank, money... then I have the nerve to tell you that all the time I'm spending to take your money, it's not free man; all the effort I took to ensure your money given to me is safe, not free either... So i'll deduct that from whatever payment I'll give you.

Then I use your money, lend it to someone else at two to three times the costs... then pull the same stunt. Account keeping fee blah blah. 

Should you feel sorry now that I spent all that time taking your money and making more money with it? Paying you nothing?

Yea sure.


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Doesn't sound like a clear cut case to me, Some times investors that lose money just want blood, if the investments had gone well they would be bragging at BBQ's about how smart they were.
> 
> But even if this "Rogue" financial planner (Articles word, not mine), was doing the wrong thing, you can hardly Tar the entire company with the same brush.
> 
> ...




What's with blaming the victims?

My wife used to work at a bank. They don't play nice with their customers man.

Customers are sales target, not people who really could use a helping hand.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Most people have to use the bank. To get paid from a job, to cash a cheque [unless you want a high fee to get cash out right away], to receive anything from the gov't...
> 
> So banking isn't really an option in most cases.
> 
> ...




Don't forget, they are a business, not a public service.
They provide a service, and charge for it, same as a multitude of other companies.


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Interesting Fact, there are 820,000 share holders owning Commonwealth bank shares, and some of those are super funds with 100's or 1000's of members, and some of the holdings are for couples where the are in one partners name.
> 
> Add to that the shareholders of the other big banks, and ownership of our banks is pretty spread out across the population, so they aren't just super rich folk taking advantage of society.
> 
> ...




So 820K people own "some" of CBA; assuming similar numbers also own the other banks... that's 3.2M.

They're not all Aussies aren't they? Some might hold more than just the one bank stock. 

So maybe half of that 3.2M, or 1.6M aussies are risk-takers and what's good for the banks is good for them.

What's the population of Australia? 22M?

That's not the benefit of the few at the expense of the many?


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## luutzu (1 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Don't forget, they are a business, not a public service.
> They provide a service, and charge for it, same as a multitude of other companies.




Yes I realise that.

That's why I told VC before that it's fair enough to say that that's how it is, that's how the world works. That banks take advantage of people because they can.

But he's arguing that depositors are having a good deal and the banks are barely making it.


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Doesn't sound like a clear cut case to me, Some times investors that lose money just want blood, if the investments had gone well they would be bragging at BBQ's about how smart they were.
> 
> But even if this "Rogue" financial planner (Articles word, not mine), was doing the wrong thing, you can hardly Tar the entire company with the same brush.
> 
> ...




Most people are ethical. Just when the ethics of the company is unethical, it pushes them to do unethical things.

Like the big aussie banks giving bonuses to "financial advisors" who make the most sales, rather than to those who find suitable products. 

Or Wells Fargo in the US deciding that each bank counter employee have to open 8 bank products per customer or something. That if they don't, they'd get fired. If they do, they get a bonus.

So faking bank account opening, fake buying new bank credit accounts etc. etc.


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## sptrawler (1 March 2017)

It is the same with all businesses, I have a car and I needed a part, the spare parts person said I had to buy the whole assembly for $1000. Therefore I direct purchased it from overseas for $50 to my door, why should the dealer be allowed to gouge me?
I think, from memory the banks interest margin is about 2%, that isn't outrageous.
The interest on credit cards is, but nobody is forcing people to use them, a lot of the problem is the want it now mentality.IMO


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## luutzu (1 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> It is the same with all businesses, I have a car and I needed a part, the spare parts person said I had to buy the whole assembly for $1000. Therefore I direct purchased it from overseas for $50 to my door, why should the dealer be allowed to gouge me?
> I think, from memory the banks interest margin is about 2%, that isn't outrageous.
> The interest on credit cards is, but nobody is forcing people to use them, a lot of the problem is the want it now mentality.IMO




When consumers have a choice, then yea, they can decide whether to take the deal or laugh in the business' face. With banking, there isn't much a customer can do but take what's on offer because it's practically the same at every other bank.

I haven't look carefully, only scanned through the commsec summaries, but I doubt the 2% is 2%. 

It's more like 2 percent above what they paid depositors. Say they paid out 1.7% on average, but charges 3.7%. Hence, "2%". aka, 218%.

The only people who make 2% on their money at the bank are the lucky depositors.


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## sptrawler (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> When consumers have a choice, then yea, they can decide whether to take the deal or laugh in the business' face. With banking, there isn't much a customer can do but take what's on offer because it's practically the same at every other bank.
> 
> I haven't look carefully, only scanned through the commsec summaries, but I doubt the 2% is 2%.
> 
> ...



My guess is it is 2% above their borrowing costs, they are basically borrowing it from the depositors, or they have to source it on the Worlds money markets.
10 years ago they were giving depositors 10%, 30 years ago 17%, it is market driven and very competitive.


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## luutzu (1 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is it is 2% above their borrowing costs, they are basically borrowing it from the depositors, or they have to source it on the Worlds money markets.
> 10 years ago they were giving depositors 10%, 30 years ago 17%, it is market driven and very competitive.




Yea, it's about 2% spread above their costs.

Say it costs them 1.7%, their spread is not 2% of that 1.7% [i.e. not 0.034%]. It's 2 percentage point above the 1.7 percentage point.

Or... (2+1.7)/1.7 = 218% margin.

I could be wrong since I look it up on wikipedia... that and making 218% on average doesn't seem like razor thin margin.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> How about Inflation +1%.
> 
> To say that a bank is being fair in paying practically nothing, less than nothing, for people's money... that's just absurd. That's special interest talking, not fairness.
> 
> ...




That's pretty much what the pay historically,


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## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> So 820K people own "some" of CBA; assuming similar numbers also own the other banks... that's 3.2M.
> 
> They're not all Aussies aren't they? Some might hold more than just the one bank stock.
> 
> ...




Some are super funds with 100's or thousands of members, and then there is the people owning them via index funds and such.

And a family of 4 might have all the shares in Mum's name,


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## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, it's about 2% spread above their costs.
> 
> Say it costs them 1.7%, their spread is not 2% of that 1.7% [i.e. not 0.034%]. It's 2 percentage point above the 1.7 percentage point.
> 
> ...



Their interest margin is 2.11%, they then have to pay their costs from that 2.11%.

The interest paid on other parts of banks funding is much higher than on normal deposits, look up the perls and other debt securities that are available at the banks, as I said though you have to move up the capital structure to get it.


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## SirRumpole (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The interest paid on other parts of banks funding is much higher than on normal deposits, look up the perls and other debt securities that are available at the banks, as I said though you have to move up the capital structure to get it.




The bottom line of all that is profits, and they are not doing too badly, especially when they don't actually own their stock in trade.


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## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Their interest margin is 2.11%, they then have to pay their costs from that 2.11%.
> 
> The interest paid on other parts of banks funding is much higher than on normal deposits, look up the perls and other debt securities that are available at the banks, as I said though you have to move up the capital structure to get it.




That's the average interest margin though right?

So it's average percent profit on loans they made after average cost of their loans. Something like that yea?

A 2.1% margin isn't exactly 2.1% in the common sense of the word though. They are not making 2.1% profit, it's a 2.1% spread.

So if it costs them 2% to borrow, an average of 2.1% spread mean they're lending it out at 4.1%, or, making about 205% profit.

Even big pharma can't pull that kind of gross margin off man.


Yes, I know it's better if people just go out and own stocks in the banks rather than lending to it. No risk at all really... Just that not a lot of people who's being gouged are in a financial position to buy stocks. They might be living from paycheck to paycheck, pension annuity to another.

Point is, 200% margin is not bad. I know, there's executive bonuses to be paid; fines and settlements for dodgy advisors... but the high margin, the excessive fees, the quadropolistic position does kind help them make billions and billions yah?


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## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Some are super funds with 100's or thousands of members, and then there is the people owning them via index funds and such.
> 
> And a family of 4 might have all the shares in Mum's name,




For most people with money indirectly riding on the banks, such as managed funds or even their super... I don't think all the profit their investment earn from shares in CBA, say, would cover the costs of a couple of late fees or overdraw charges. 

Despite the hype, what's good for CBA might not be good for the common Aussie being gouge by it. Even if that aussie own a few shares in CBA.


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## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> That's pretty much what the pay historically,




Maybe, if people have over $100K and putting it in a long term deposit. 

Even I could do better than that. Deposit $100K my way and I promise to keep it safe and pay 3% on top p.a. Deal?


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## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> So if it costs them 2% to borrow, an average of 2.1% spread mean they're lending it out at 4.1%, or, making about 205% profit.




No, it's total interest charged to customers - total interest paid to depositors = net interest

The net interest = 2.11% of the loan book.

This is not 2.11% profit, they still have to pay all their operating expenses out of that margin, and pay bad debts, remember the depositor doesn't have his money "at risk" any losses reduce the profit.

also only a percentage of deposits can be lent out at any one time, so the gross margin is much higher than the net margin.


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## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The bottom line of all that is profits, and they are not doing too badly, especially when they don't actually own their stock in trade.




The best run banks are earning about 16% on share holders equity, that's not a huge number,


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## luutzu (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> No, it's total interest charged to customers - total interest paid to depositors = net interest
> 
> The net interest = 2.11% of the loan book.
> 
> ...




Yea I know it's not net profit. Gross profit or something right?

Still, that's about 218% margin man. Not net profit margin, but margin on difference between their main costs [money]. 

So a depositor send the bank the money and earn, if they have a large chunk and take a 60 weeks term or something, would earn about 2.5%, max 3.5% if they have lotsa deposit.

That's 3.5% on their equity, yea?

How then is it "fair" that the bank's shareholders uses that cash and then earn 16% return on their equity. Is their risk four times more than the depositors? If higher risks versus no risk to depositors, aren't the no-risk taken care of by the gov't/taxpayers?


So banks make money at depositors expense because they can, because the gov't permit it. Not because it's fair or because there's high risk.

If a bank is run the way it's supposed to - lend properly, don't speculate and get creative with investments; don't do dodgy stuff that get you fined - there really is no risk to the business.

So the fact that they're taking on more risks is simply out of them being greedy and wanting more and more profit, knowing that profits they get to keep but losses the taxpayers will bail them out. 

Can't say that that kind of risk are part of a normal banking/deposit-lend business so depositors have to get diddly and ought to be happy that they do.

That's not playing it straight. That's just rationalisation.


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The best run banks are earning about 16% on share holders equity, that's not a huge number,




Compared to about 3% for customers it is.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Compared to about 3% for customers it is.




Did you need to go back and have a look at the capital structure I laid out for you.

think about this example.

If I wanted to buy a house (or something else) that was worth $500,000 and I was planning on borrowing 

$50K from you
$50K from person A
$150K from person B
$250K from person C (has government guarantee)

And if I default the losses will go in that go in that order 

e.g., loan goes bad and house gets sold at a $75K loss, you absorb the first $50K wiping out your position, then person A absorbs the remaining $25K loss wiping out 50% of their position, but the other levels suffer no loss.

Do all the levels deserve to earn the same interest?

Does person C deserve to earn much at all considering they have almost no risk, and have a government guarantee?

you have to realise that the share holder is the first to lose both income and capital, so deserves a better return profile.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Is their risk four times more than the depositors?




I can think of heaps of situations where banks have gone under and shareholders have lost all or significant share of their capital, not so many cases of depositors losing, can you think of any?


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> you have to realise that the share holder is the first to lose both income and capital, so deserves a better return profile.




I accept that, the question is "how much more".

There is virtually no competition in the banking industry in this country, they all offer the least rates they can and try and rip customers off as much as they can, and they probably get together to decide how low their interest rates will be.

At least they should be paying an "insurance premium" to the government for guaranteeing their losses, or returning more to the customers in return.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I accept that, the question is "how much more".
> 
> .





How much more would *you* want in the example I gave?

If it was your $50K that was the first to be wiped out in the deal, how much interest would you have to be paid to consider putting up that last 10% of the financing, considering a 10% loss on the loan equals a 100% loss for you.

Say it was a business loan? how much would you want to put up.

Consider that a shareholder will give up all profits and their equity, before any of the other levels lose, and some of those other levels below share holders but above depositors are earning like 6% - 8%, but are protected by the share holders equity, thats why I say 16% isn't huge.

CSL is making 40% on its equity making flu vaccines for government contracts.


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If it was your $50K that was the first to be wiped out in the deal, how much interest would you have to be paid to consider putting up that last 10% of the financing, considering a 10% loss on the loan equals a 100% loss for you.




Exactly how much risk do you think that bank shareholders are subject to in this country with a responsible prudential regulator, a government guarantee on deposits and only four major banks ?

I'd say it's extremely unlikely that bank shareholders in this country will ever lose their investment as the banks profits seem to be continually growing as are their share prices and dividends, so your theoretical calculations are just that, theoretical.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

Can you give me an interest rate you would personally feel comfortable earning to take on that risk in the deal I outlined?



SirRumpole said:


> Exactly how much risk do you think that bank shareholders are subject to in this country with a responsible prudential regulator,




People probably thought the same thing In 2006 in the USA before the property market crash and the GFC, Plenty of institutions had a large part of shareholders capital wiped out.



> a government guarantee on deposits




You understand that protects depositors and not share holders right?




> I'd say it's extremely unlikely that bank shareholders in this country will ever lose their investment as the banks profits seem to be continually growing as are their share prices and dividends, so your theoretical calculations are just that, theoretical



.

famous last words.

But the flip side is that if you think share holders capital isn't at risk, then the depositors capital is not at risk, so your claims about the banks risking depositors money are bunk,

you can't have it both ways, either their is risk or there isn't, if there isn't then depositors money isn't being risked by the banks, if there is risk, then the shareholders are taking far more risk than depositors.


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You understand that protects depositors and not share holders right?




So you don't think that insurance on a business trading stock protects shareholders ? 

If part of a business assets is buildings and they burn down , if there is no insurance then the shareholders pay if there is insurance then the insurance company pays.  It's the same with cash at the bank.

Of course the government guarantee protects shareholders from losses .


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## luutzu (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I can think of heaps of situations where banks have gone under and shareholders have lost all or significant share of their capital, not so many cases of depositors losing, can you think of any?




$US5 trillion in pensions, homes and savings were lost by Americans alone during the GFC.

Maybe the depositors didn't lose much or any. But that's because the gov't bailed the bankers out didn't they? To the total tune of about $7 trillion over next couple of years.


The only reason any bank ever go broke is because they were reckless. Not because their banking business is risky. 

Why should anyone guarantee or pay for the risks the bankers take on themselves? 

I mean, why should depositors have to pay through earning a real negative/zero return so that the bankers can make more profit from "risks" they themselves created.

If the banks simply offer a big massive safe, security guards, people at the counters, ATMs... take money in, flip it around for some 200% profit, or even 100% gross... I'd say it's a very safe and profitable business to be in.

But if that's not enough and they get speculative in the global financial markets. They should bear that cost, shouldn't they?

But yea, four banks in Australia, where are the customers going to go right?


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> $US5 trillion in pensions, homes and savings were lost by Americans alone during the GFC.




They are bank deposits. That is an example of the people further up the capital structure that lose out before depositors lose.



> Maybe the depositors didn't lose much or any. But that's because the gov't bailed the bankers out didn't they? To the total tune of about $7 trillion over next couple of years.




Bail outs didn't stop certain banks share holders losing their equity, in some cases 100% of their equity.

And a lot of the "Bail outs" were investments that made money for the government and federal reserve.



> The only reason any bank ever go broke is because they were reckless. Not because their banking business is risky.
> 
> Why should anyone guarantee or pay for the risks the bankers take on themselves?




No one does guarantee the banks equity or capital




> I mean, why should depositors have to pay through earning a real negative/zero return so that the bankers can make more profit from "risks" they themselves created.




Huh??? taking on risk is the only way the bank can earn money, and hence provide depositors with a safe place to store funds.

*I ask you the same question I asked Rumpole, how much interest would you have to be offered to take the position described above?*


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So you don't think that insurance on a business trading stock protects shareholders ?
> 
> If part of a business assets is buildings and they burn down , if there is no insurance then the shareholders pay if there is insurance then the insurance company pays.  It's the same with cash at the bank.
> 
> Of course the government guarantee protects shareholders from losses .




Dude, The government guarantee does not pay out 1 single dollar until the bank is bankrupt and share holders capital and all the none secured funding is 100% gone.

The government doesn't step in and pay anything to share holders.

If you want to use an example, a correct example would be like the government insuring a Woolworths supplier, so if Woolworths goes bankrupt the supplier still gets paid for the money they are owed, it doesn't protect Woolworths owners.


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Dude, The government guarantee does not pay out 1 single dollar until the bank is bankrupt and share holders capital and all the none secured funding is 100% gone.





But the guarantee gives customers the security of having their funds guaranteed so they are less likely to run to the banks and withdraw money leading to bank losses. 

It protects shareholders from runs on the bank's, oops sorry the depositor's money.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But the guarantee gives customers the security of having their funds guaranteed so they are less likely to run to the banks and withdraw money leading to bank losses.
> 
> It protects shareholders from runs on the bank's, oops sorry the depositor's money.




The most important protection from a run on a bank is the reserve bank, that hold capital from all the other banks in the system, ready to assist a bank that has a run.

But you are confusing things here, the way a bank will risk losing is if the loan go bad, this is where share holders funds are securing the depositors funds


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## luutzu (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> They are bank deposits. That is an example of the people further up the capital structure that lose out before depositors lose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




How does a bail out that stop the bank from going bankrupt not save shareholders from losing their equity?
I mean, if the shareholders sell out before the bail out, sure they'd lose. But if they hang on and the gov't steps in, bank survived and so shareholders equity are protected.

Yes, the gov't did make money on the bail-outs, but they didn't own the entire bank like the practically did own it right? In fact, I heard one of the banks that got bailed out turn around and sue the US gov't for bailing them out at "outrageous" interest rate. 

Yea, gov't guarantee does not protect banks equity holders. But it does provide them with a free insurance policy, making it possible to get people's deposits. True? Without that guarantee, people would either demand a much higher interest rate, which they can't anyway, so they'd just go out and buy their own safe.

Banks does not need to take risk to make money. How risky is it to lend properly? To assess borrower's credit, jobs, income? Yea, there's some risk, but not the kind of risk that justifies making 200% gross on depositors cash while paying them diddly.

The kind of risk I was referring to are non-systemic. They're optional risks. Risks the bank takes on in speculating in the financial markets and its many fancy instruments.

That's not really a banking business risk; that's just speculative risk the bank decides to take on to gain more money.. knowing that if they win, they keep the profit; if they lose, the gov't will bail them out.

Can't use that optional risk and greed to justify that bank shareholders take on more risk so they deserve more profit while depositors are lucky to get nothing for their cash.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> How does a bail out that stop the bank from going bankrupt not save shareholders from losing their equity?
> .




Because the only reason the bank was going bankrupt is because of large capital losses, so before the bailout was brought in to prevent complete collapse, the share holders had already lost a bunch of their equity, Do you think all those foreclosures at at less then the loan amounts wasn't causing the banks capital to take a hit.

Also, Dilution of the share registry, the financial institutions that were "Bailed out" were also forced to raise capital, which wiped out a chunk of exisiting share holders capital also.


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## luutzu (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Because the only reason the bank was going bankrupt is because of large capital losses, so before the bailout was brought in to prevent complete collapse, the share holders had already lost a bunch of their equity, Do you think all those foreclosures at at less then the loan amounts wasn't causing the banks capital to take a hit.
> 
> Also, Dilution of the share registry, the financial institutions that were "Bailed out" were also forced to raise capital, which wiped out a chunk of exisiting share holders capital also.




Is there a donation hotline we could use to help out with a few dollars a month?

Poor banks man, selling garbage to investors the world over and most of the CEOs get to keep all of their bonuses.

Know the CEO of Bear Stern, or was it Lehman Bros... the guy played by James Woods in Too Big to Fail...

anyway, I saw the real dude in front of the US Senate saying how everyday, he live with the pain of the losses his pain cause to investors. To which a Senator replied, yea azzhole, you get to walk away with $450M golden parachute.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Is there a donation hotline we could use to help out with a few dollars a month?





You are acting like I am asking you to feel sorry of bank investors that have lost money, I'm not, all I am saying is that it happens, you can't really predict when it will happen, but it will happen again.

So, I believe that we shouldn't try and demonise people at the pointy end of the capital structure. 

Back when I was in the Army, one of the tasks my regiment was trained to carry out was identifying and rendering safe road side bombs (along with some other pretty dangerous jobs). 

All the members that were likely to be deployed if those jobs came up earned an extra $10K - $15K per year depending on training, I can remember being told by a captain from outside the regiment it was a rort and we didn't deserve the "danger money" because there was no way we would ever be used in that role.

less than 12months later our regiment was deployed to Afghanistan for pretty much the whole conflict digging up road side bombs and other booby traps, we had a few guys killed and a bunch of others suffering permanent injuries, not to mention the mental injuries. 

It's easy to say people don't deserve to be paid for taking risk, when you think the future is all rosy, but times change real quick sometimes, and then what appeared to be a nice little benefit can suddenly seem like no where near enough compensation.


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## luutzu (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You are acting like I am asking you to feel sorry of bank investors that have lost money, I'm not, all I am saying is that it happens, you can't really predict when it will happen, but it will happen again.
> 
> So, I believe that we shouldn't try and demonise people at the pointy end of the capital structure.
> 
> ...




That's stretching it a lot man.

Your regiment's job is more dangerous. Takes more risk, a lot more skills I'd imagine. So fair enough.

A depositor is lending their money to the banks. It's hardly fair for the bank to turn around and say that since they're taking no risk, they're having it good to just zero real return.

First, they are taking a risk, just the risk is mostly guarantee by them through the gov't. Socialised risk, for free to the banks.

Second, they're not supposed to take any risk because they're simply depositing money at the bank. 

So what's risk-free money worth? Nothing? Less than nothing in most cases? 

Third, the extra risk that the banks take on in lending... that's their decision. If they do it properly, most often there really is no risk in lending on average. 

For banks to speculate and get creative, sure that's extra risk but why should depositors have to pay for that? Paying in somehow expected to get zero for their money?

That's just simply the big four boys using their market power to screw over people with little other options.

That's capitalism or whatever, fair enough. Can't say it's fair that depositors should get nothing for their money beside it being kept safe and they can access it.


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## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> That's stretching it a lot man.
> 
> Your regiment's job is more dangerous. Takes more risk, a lot more skills I'd imagine. So fair enough.
> 
> ...




I will exit the conversation here we are just going round in circles, But as I have said, a bank offering a safe place to store cash is a benefit in its self, and thats all most depositors really deserve, inflation hedging is about all that should be expected, only when you lock into a term deposit.


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I will exit the conversation here we are just going round in circles, But as I have said, a bank offering a safe place to store cash is a benefit in its self, and thats all most depositors really deserve, inflation hedging is about all that should be expected, only when you lock into a term deposit.




But if customers are also being charged account keeping fees and eftpos fees and so on then that detracts from the benefit doesn't it ? And if the interest rates are just at inflation rates then the customers are making a net loss, so your bank is a ripoff merchant.

I think a Royal Commission would be good to clear the air and bring to light whether banks are really a good deal or not.


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But if customers are also being charged account keeping fees and eftpos fees and so on then that detracts from the benefit doesn't it ? And if the interest rates are just at inflation rates then the customers are making a net loss, so your bank is a ripoff merchant.
> 
> I think a Royal Commission would be good to clear the air and bring to light whether banks are really a good deal or not.




You only get charged account keeping fees if you are a small customer not doing much business with the bank.

If all you do is deposit your pay check on Thursday and withdraw it Thursday night the bank isn't making any income from you, so will charge you for the service.


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You only get charged account keeping fees if you are a small customer not doing much business with the bank.
> 
> If all you do is deposit your pay check on Thursday and withdraw it Thursday night the bank isn't making any income from you, so will charge you for the service.




As I've been saying, a ripoff.


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## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As I've been saying, a ripoff.




A monthly fee on a bank account is less than a coffee at star bucks, 3 times less than a monthly fee on a Netflix subscription, 4 times less than a newspaper subscription, about the same cost as the Harbour bridge toll, less than a return adult train ticket from parramatta to the city.

Where is the rip off,


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## Tisme (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A monthly fee on a bank account is less than a coffee at star bucks, 3 times less than a monthly fee on a Netflix subscription, 4 times less than a newspaper subscription, about the same cost as the Harbour bridge toll, less than a return adult train ticket from parramatta to the city.
> 
> Where is the rip off,




Comparison rate?


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## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Comparison rate?



I am not sure what you mean


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## Tisme (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure what you mean




The comparison rate which banks must produce would include all those fees and charges. Simple maths A-B=C would expose those oncosts


----------



## Ves (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A monthly fee on a bank account is less than a coffee at star bucks, 3 times less than a monthly fee on a Netflix subscription, 4 times less than a newspaper subscription, about the same cost as the Harbour bridge toll, less than a return adult train ticket from parramatta to the city.
> 
> Where is the rip off,



The brilliant thing for the banks is that a person could have $10 million in one of their transaction accounts, pay the $4 monthly fee,  and earn absolutely zero interest. Check the interest rates for say CBA's smart access account for example.

Now,  you can make the argument that it'd be silly to leave $10 million in one of those accounts,  but I'd suspect it's also not very ethical of a bank to not pay interest on such a large amount when no doubt they're using these funds to expand their balance sheet and profitability.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

The head of NAB was looking pretty shifty at Senate estimates when answering question on rogue financial advisors in his bank.

We need a RC to bring all this stuff out otherwise people will lose faith in the banking system.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

Ves said:


> The brilliant thing for the banks is that a person could have $10 million in one of their transaction accounts, pay the $4 monthly fee,  and earn absolutely zero interest. Check the interest rates for say CBA's smart access account for example.
> 
> Now,  you can make the argument that it'd be silly to leave $10 million in one of those accounts,  but I'd suspect it's also not very ethical of a bank to not pay interest on such a large amount when no doubt they're using these funds to expand their balance sheet and profitability.




Firstly, with that size deposit you wouldn't have to pay an account fee.

But, lets say the person does pay the $4.

Is that person benefiting by having their money kept safe? I say yes, they can sleep easy without fearing it will be stolen.

*How much do you think it would cost to provide the same level of security under a different system?
*
Also there is limits to what the bank can do to earn money from you when you money is in an at call account.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

Ves said:


> The brilliant thing for the banks is that a person could have $10 million in one of their transaction accounts, pay the $4 monthly fee,  and earn absolutely zero interest. Check the interest rates for say CBA's smart access account for example.
> .





An honest question here. 

If you had $10 Million cash, and you needed to keep in in cash for a few weeks for some reason, would you just keep it at home or would you put it in the bank as fast as you could fearing it may be stolen?

If you admit that you would want to bank it as fast as you can for fear of theft, you are admitting that the bank is offering you a good service, which even in the absence of earned interest has value to you.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If you had $10 Million cash, and you needed to keep in in cash for a few weeks for some reason, would you just keep it at home or would you put it in the bank as fast as you could fearing it may be stolen?
> 
> If you admit that you would want to bank it as fast as you can for fear of theft, you are admitting that the bank is offering you a good service, which even in the absence of earned interest has value to you.




If they didn't try to lend it to someone without my approval it might be a good deal.

That's what banks pay for, not storage space (they only keep a small percentage of their deposits on hand anyway), but the actual *use* of the money for purposes unknown to the owners of that money. That's why they need to give a better return.

Let me give you an example.

I have a valuable car with no place to store it. If someone offers me a secure storage space I may pay them for that space. If they want to hire my car out to people I don't know who may use it as a race car for all I know, for a good sum of money then I want a proportion of that money.

Make sense ?


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I will exit the conversation here we are just going round in circles, But as I have said, a bank offering a safe place to store cash is a benefit in its self, and thats all most depositors really deserve, inflation hedging is about all that should be expected, only when you lock into a term deposit.





Dude, they're not "offering a safe place" for depositors money; they're using people's money to make money. And as part of that business, they just have to keep it safe.

Again, would you or any banker lend anyone any money at a "hedge against inflation rate"? No you would not. You would want inflation + a reasonable interest.


Value Collector said:


> An honest question here.
> 
> If you had $10 Million cash, and you needed to keep in in cash for a few weeks for some reason, would you just keep it at home or would you put it in the bank as fast as you could fearing it may be stolen?
> 
> If you admit that you would want to bank it as fast as you can for fear of theft, you are admitting that the bank is offering you a good service, which even in the absence of earned interest has value to you.




Is the bank just keeping my $10M safe or are they using it to make outrageous amount of profit on?
If they were to make profit on top, shouldn't I at least get a share of that profit that my money help make possible?

Second, are the safes there just to keep my $10M safe, for me; or they're also there to keep the bank's liability safe too? It's also to protect the bank isn't it?

So I bear all the costs to keeping both our money safe; the bank get to play with my money and I get nothing because the bank is obviously taking the risk.

Alrighty then.


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## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If they didn't try to lend it to someone without my approval it might be a good deal.
> ?




Then they would have to charge a lot more than a $4 monthly account fee



> Dude, they're not "offering a safe place" for depositors money; they're using people's money to make money.




So in you draw at home and in the bank are pretty much the same level of safety to you? I doubt you believe that.

does you draw pay interest? 



> Is the bank just keeping my $10M safe or are they using it to make outrageous amount of profit on?




Does it matter? the benefit you want is safety, the give you that benefit.


----------



## bellenuit (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I have a valuable car with no place to store it. If someone offers me a secure storage space I may pay them for that space. If they want to hire my car out to people I don't know who may use it as a race car for all I know, for a good sum of money then I want a proportion of that money.
> 
> Make sense ?




No, absolute nonsense. Your valuable car is unique and is possibly not replaceable. If they lend your car out to others, apart from the potential to be damaged, it will be subject to wear and tear. So what they return to you is not what you gave the person originally.

Your money goes into a pool and what is returned is exactly the same value wise (ignoring inflationary impact). Your money is at call so you could go to the bank the following morning and withdraw it, even though they may have lent out the equivalent amount to other people assuming they meet regulatory liquidity requirements. If it were a massive sum that is more than they are allowed carry in a particular branch, there may be an issue getting it back in cash at call, but that can be handled other ways. You couldn't get you car returned on the spot if they had on lent it to others as the car is a unique object whereas money is just a store of value and its actual physical format is usually of little consequence.


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## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

bellenuit said:


> No, absolute nonsense. Your valuable car is unique and is possibly not replaceable. If they lend your car out to others, apart from the potential to be damaged, it will be subject to wear and tear. So what they return to you is not what you gave the person originally.




It's the same principle. The money belongs to the depositors, it's lent to whoever the bank wants to lend it to, and they pay a return for the use of the money.

It's not just storage as VC was implying.


----------



## Ves (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If you had $10 Million cash, and you needed to keep in in cash for a few weeks for some reason, would you just keep it at home or would you put it in the bank as fast as you could fearing it may be stolen?



The actual answer is - I don't really think I'd have a choice.  No one is handing me over $10 million of bank notes,  the person giving me the cash,  or the bank!

I think the whole 'safety' argument is a bit different these days.  If an individual wants to store money he/she has to store it physically.  If he/she wants it stored at a bank they store it electronically  (the only reason banks keep bank notes is to service people who want them).

The answer to your question is probably different if there was a way for individuals to store it electronically.  There is bitcoins,  but I don't think that technology is quite there yet.

I'm not really arguing that they are providing a bad service or no service.  Just pointing out it's curious that some bank accounts pay no interest no matter what your bank balance is.  

All I'm really saying is that if they're charging an account fee,  it should be law that the account pays interest equivalent to the cash rate.


----------



## bellenuit (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's the same principle. The money belongs to the depositors, it's lent to whoever the bank wants to lend it to, and they pay a return for the use of the money.
> 
> It's not just storage as VC was implying.




It's not the same principle. The money does not belong to the depositors, as the car does in your example. If the bank were to fail, depositors have no direct claim against money the bank lends others and there is no linkage between money you lend to the bank and money the bank lends to others. When you deposit money, you become a creditor of the bank and in the event of the bank failing, you only have recourse to whatever funds are available when all other creditors that are before you in the pecking order have been satisfied. If the were to deposit $100K in the bank and (though unlikely) were to see that same physical stack of cash be onlent to the customer behind you in the queue, you could not make demands of that customer for the return of "your" money should the bank collapse. You only have a claim against the bank.

In the case of the car, it is different. You still have ownership of the car and if the person you lent the car to were to die or go bankrupt, you can lay claim to the car even though it may be in the possession of another if it had been onlent (because you have proof of ownership).

Whether banks should be forced to pay a certain rate for on call deposits or not is really up to the bank. Most banks pay nothing or a miserly amount for on-call, as they in turn make little revenue on onlending  those funds (Good bank practice requires the matching of terms between deposits and loans. Thus on call deposits are only lent short term *if at all* and involve proportionally higher set-up costs if onlent. Banks issue long term bonds and similar for mortgage lending, because they need to ensure that they don't have a run on funds, which they could have if they borrowed short term and lent long term).   Remember that on call deposits are primarily (by volume) wage, salary and pension deposits and are usually fully drawn down over the course of the following fortnight. The bank cannot onlend these funds as they are needed to meet their day to day withdrawals. 

So one reason interest on on-call deposits are zero or low is because they cost the bank proportionally more to administer than term deposits and their ability to earn interest on those fund are minimal. They also must cover the network costs (branches, ATMs, security etc) that allow the depositors to access those funds at more or less anytime or place. You may notice that some online lenders do offer more attractive interest on on-call deposits, such as ING and Rabobank, and certain online saver accounts of the big banks. But then these have restrictions in place that are not applicable to normal transaction accounts (such as needing to have linked accounts, not being able to use BPAY, no branch or ATM access). So they are offering more attractive interest rates where they can structure access to reduce their own costs.

Getting back to the deposit of $100K at zero interest. This is justifiable as most on call deposits are usually sub $2k (salary or wage deposits) and are withdrawn in lesser amounts ($100 at an ATM). These cost the bank a lot to process and the interest rate reflects that. The $100K type of transaction may represent less than 1% of their deposits by volume, so it may not be worth treating it differently. But some banks do have a tiered rate to account for such transactions (0% up to $5K, 1% $5K to $20K etc).

So to summarise, on call transaction accounts have a low interest rate and even possibly an account management fee, as they have significantly higher processing costs to the banks, involve most of the banks physical and branch personal infrastructure to administer and provide little opportunity for the bank to onlend at attractive rates and terms. So VC is right in saying the banks are really providing a secure short term storage facility for such deposits and one cannot expect much if any interest on them. If a higher interest rate is required, then that is what term deposits are for.


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## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

bellenuit said:


> If the bank were to fail, depositors have no direct claim against money the bank lends others and there is no linkage between money you lend to the bank and money the bank lends to others. When you deposit money, you become a creditor of the bank and in the event of the bank failing, you only have recourse to whatever funds are available when all other creditors that are before you in the pecking order have been satisfied.




Well you had better talk to VC about that.

He was going on about everybody else losing all their money before the depositors lose a cent.

One of you apparently has the wrong end of the stick.

If you are correct, then the depositors deserve a damn sight better return on their money than they are getting now to cope with the higher risk.



> These [ATM transactions] cost the bank a lot to process and the interest rate reflects that




That's why the banks charge EFTPOS fees so they are double dipping aren't they ?


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## bellenuit (4 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well you had better talk to VC about that.
> 
> He was going on about everybody else losing all their money before the depositors lose a cent.
> 
> One of you apparently has the wrong end of the stick.




We are not inconsistent. I was talking about banking in general and in the event of bank failure the depositors must wait in line in the pre-ordained pecking order. I believe the ATO is at the top, but depositors are much higher than bank shareholders. In the event that there are no funds available when the depositors get their turn, then in some cases there is a government guarantee to ensure depositors get their deposits. But the guarantee doesn't apply in all cases and even when it doesn't, the depositors are fairly high up in the pecking order (but not on top) so their risk level is not so high.



> If you are correct, then the depositors deserve a damn sight better return on their money than they are getting now to cope with the higher risk.




I can't see why you are thrashing about so much on this point. In reality what risk are you talking about? What banks have failed in Australia and if there were any (I can't recall), did depositors lose money? If you were to quantify the risk based on past history here, a bank failure in which a depositor lost all their money would be less likely than being hit by a meteor. Do you think they deserve 1% additional interest for that? And that is just for transaction accounts. Term deposits *do pay better* interest (for the reasons I gave in my last post) and it is the loss of such funds (rather than the weekly pay packet in a transaction account) that is going to hurt the depositor in the unlikely event that a bank without guarantee fails and there isn't enough funds to pay depositors when their turn comes.

Also, it is well know that the big 4 are some of the most stable and secure banks in the world.



> That's why the banks charge EFTPOS fees so they are double dipping aren't they ?




Many don't, some only charge for using another's ATM or a foreign ATM.

Bank fees are different between banks as each decides separately the best way to recuperate their costs. Astute on-call depositors can usually do all their banking for free by selecting the right account and avoiding withdrawal methods that add costs. Usually people pay unnecessary fees due to pure laziness and a couldn't care less attitude.

I agree with VC in that I use the banks (mortgage paid off) purely as a convenience to safely house my spare cash and provide me access to it from anywhere in the world. I don't pay any fees (other than foreign ATM and forex fees), but if I had no choice I would still think the service they provide would be worth $10 to $20 per month, possibly more if I ran a business as a tradesman or the like. When I look back at the time I started out working when you more or less had to visit a bank to transact, could only access your funds using stupid pass-books and could only make payments by cheque, things are so much more convenient today.


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## SirRumpole (4 March 2017)

bellenuit said:


> I can't see why you are thrashing about so much on this point. In reality what risk are you talking about? What banks have failed in Australia and if there were any (I can't recall), did depositors lose money?




That's exactly the point I made to VC when he was going on about how much risk shareholders take and why they deserve a higher return.

You can't have it both ways.


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## dutchie (4 March 2017)

Do we need politicians? Since John Howard ended his stint as PM we have had (rabble) governments from both sides who have done nothing but waste our money.
A primary school class would/could have done a better job. What a waste to have all these people with their outlandish salaries and perks (often abused) drawing from the taxes we all work so hard to generate.

Unfortunately this pathetic situation is set to continue for at least another 8 years.

Abolish all politicians I say!

“Oh, the humanity!”


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## noco (4 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> Do we need politicians? Since John Howard ended his stint as PM we have had (rabble) governments from both sides who have done nothing but waste our money.
> A primary school class would/could have done a better job. What a waste to have all these people with their outlandish salaries and perks (often abused) drawing from the taxes we all work so hard to generate.
> 
> Unfortunately this pathetic situation is set to continue for at least another 8 years.
> ...




duthie, I do believe the majority of people in Australia are thinking like you and me and a political revolution is well on the way.

I hope you are wrong about the situation lasting another 8 years.....IMHO, I believe change will happen a lot sooner.


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## Value Collector (4 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That's exactly the point I made to VC when he was going on about how much risk shareholders take and why they deserve a higher return.
> 
> You can't have it both ways.




The point is, regardless of how much risk you think exists, share holders are the first to absorb it.

And it doesn't  have to mean a bank failure, a bank only fails if share holders capital is wiped out.

Shareholders could lose 10% or 20% or 90% of their equity without the bank failing.

If you think the share holders position isn't risky, then there is no way you can say the depositors position is, because what ever risk the depositors have, the share holders have 10 times more, its the nature of the structure.

Every loan that bank makes, puts share holders equity at risk, if someone doesn't pay their loan back, that comes out of shareholders pockets, not depositors.


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## SirRumpole (4 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The point is, regardless of how much risk you think exists, share holders are the first to absorb it.




So maybe we should go back to the building society/ mutual organisation model that seemed to work well before they were taken over by the rapacious banks. All the depositors carry the same risk and get the same rewards and there are no greedy shareholders to rip us off.


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## luutzu (4 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The point is, regardless of how much risk you think exists, share holders are the first to absorb it.
> 
> And it doesn't  have to mean a bank failure, a bank only fails if share holders capital is wiped out.
> 
> ...




If shareholders don't like those risk, which tend to come with good rewards, then don't make those risk. 

If they decided to take on those risk, then wear it. Profits they keep, losses they bear. Capitalism 101 right?

Why must the bank's risk be at the expense of depositors?

And it is at depositor's expense because they're getting zero real return for their cash. 

What's with this head I win, tail you lose business? That's capitalism now is it?

So if the bank goes broke and depositors' money are lose, the gov't will guarantee and taxpayers will pay it off for the bank.

If that guarantee isn't there, how much do you reckon depositors would demand on their deposits to compensate for that risk? Nothing? 

So taxpayers are paying for an insurance policy that might, might not, but might come due one day. That's great because the bank won't use it anyway...? 

Then depositors ought to pay the bank for taking risk. Banking is a risky business, according to the bank, so the reduce that risk, depositors ought to pay for it by earning diddly. That's fair?


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## SirRumpole (4 March 2017)

> "Are you living in the real world?"
> 
> *Key points:*
> 
> ...




Just another example of how banks are ripping us off.

I'm sure the others do the same.


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## Value Collector (4 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> If shareholders don't like those risk, which tend to come with good rewards, then don't make those risk.
> 
> If they decided to take on those risk, then wear it. Profits they keep, losses they bear. Capitalism 101 right?
> 
> ...





i haven't said share holders aren't happy with the risk they are, they just want to be paid for it, at the end of the day, the competition in the market would rise if profits were unfairly large, and reduce profits.

The heads I win tails you lose example is a fallacy.


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## luutzu (5 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> i haven't said share holders aren't happy with the risk they are, they just want to be paid for it, at the end of the day, the competition in the market would rise if profits were unfairly large, and reduce profits.
> 
> The heads I win tails you lose example is a fallacy.





How is it a fallacy?

The bankers are telling depositors that ATMs, a safe place for their money, and zero real interests on their money [often, it's negative zero real interest]... banks are saying that that's fair. That depositors putting money in the bank for nothing is having a good deal.

But for the bank to take on extra risk in their dealings, either recklessly lending out to anyone or recklessly speculating in this and that market... those risks they bravely takes on... those risks are partly paid for by depositors [through not getting nothing for their money]. 

Again, if the banks just take depositor's money and lend it out properly, the overall risk is so insignificant it's almost zero. For banks to take on more risk by lending to high-risk borrowers or through playing the markets... that's extra risk the banks decides to take on. Why then should depositors have to forgo their money's interests to compensate for those extra risk.

If the risks to the banks are solely related to holding too much of depositor's cash; or risky taking in deposits... then sure. But it's not deposit-related risk is it?

On top of all this, the gov't is guaranteeing that if the shiet hits the fan, taxpayers will bail out the bank's lender [i.e. depositors].

Aren't modern banking an perfect example of socialised costs - passing costs onto taxpayers - but privatising all profits?

And how is this also not an example of heads I win, tail you lose?

-------

Say you deposit your cash with me. I tells you that it costs a lot to hold your cash man. Wouldn't you ask if those costs are covered by the returns I'm getting lending it out? Sure it covers the costs of taking your money, but man... I gamble with your deposits and might lose... so that's a big risk... and because of that risk, I'm gonna have to not pay you anything for your money. 

Fair? 

No! What if your gambling send you broke and I lose my deposits? Since that's the case, I want a much higher return for the risk of you and your gambling habits dude.

No worries man, the gov't will bail you out. So what risk?



That's not capitalism and entrepreneurialship. Crony capitalism that takes from the poor and the public and dole it out to the rich.


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## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> No! What if your gambling send you broke and I lose my deposits? Since that's the case, I want a much higher return for the risk of you and your gambling habits dude.
> 
> No worries man, the gov't will bail you out. So what risk?
> 
> ...




You can't have t both ways.

Firstly you are saying that the shareholders cash is not at risk, but then you are saying depositors cash is at risk.

If you saying shareholders don't have much risk, then depositors have basically no risk.

If you are saying depositors do have risk, (still less risk than the mattress though) then you have to admit shareholders putting their capital infant of depositors funds is providing a good protection service.

_ guess body guards look like over paid moochers till they starting taking bullets to the chest for you.

Watch this at the 30 second mark, who do you want to be, they guy taking a round to the chest, or the guy crouching behind, again shareholders are the first to take hits, we don't care, we just want to be paid.
_


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## luutzu (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You can't have t both ways.
> 
> Firstly you are saying that the shareholders cash is not at risk, but then you are saying depositors cash is at risk.
> 
> ...





If the banks can have it both ways, why can't I? 

Banks have many risks... let's give it that for now.

What's the risk of taking depositor's money and storing it? Electronically, with some cash reserves as required by the gov't. 

What's the risk in that? Practically zero risk.

What's the risk to the bank in taking depositor's cash and lending it out _responsibly?_ i.e. not speculating, not getting creative and smart with the deposit. Just your normal lending out to responsible business operators and mortgages. 

That risk is very, very minimal. It's not zero, but it's not "risky" if it's done responsibly. 

With minimal to zero risk in responsibly handling depositors cash, wouldn't it make sense to then pay depositors something like inflation + 1% return on their cash?

If the bank decided to take on more risk, i.e. more profit, by lending to people with five credit cards, charging them some 20%p.a.; or lending to risky businesses, and charging them 5 to 7% or whatever it is... 

Those are additional risks the bank decides to take on, on their own. 

Why then should depositors pay for that additional risk that their cash does not at all cause?

That and in real life, on a level playing field [ok, not so real life]... when you take people's money, it's only common sense that you pay them for it.

If taking deposits and handling it is too risky for you the banker, then maybe banking isn't your cup of tea.

But of course there's only 4 banks with 1 tiny "bank" in Australia... so depositors are being screwed and have no choice but bending over.


It's like you giving me money and I turn around saying that man, I'm quite reckless and just don't know how to handle money responsibly. So I'm risky.. .and becuase of my riskiness, you'll have to pay me for looking after your cash. That's fair.

-------------

With regards to gov't guarantee... again, that's a free insurance policies for the banks. Without it, depositors will most likely not put their cash at the bank, or will demand a much higher interest for their deposits. Both of which will cost the banks quite a bit.

But since Big Brother is looking after the poor bankers... bankers can tell depositors that "there's no risk because the gov't will cover you". That's transferring risk onto the public, among whom are also depositors.

This is call having your cake, eating it and laughing all the way to the bank.


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## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If you are saying depositors do have risk, (still less risk than the mattress though) then you have to admit shareholders putting their capital infant of depositors funds is providing a good protection service.




Paying shareholders half of the shares dividend yield would be fair I reckon.

The CBA's yield is about 8% , so 4% on depositor's funds would seem fair.


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## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Exactly how much risk do you think that bank shareholders are subject to in this country with a responsible prudential regulator, a government guarantee on deposits and only four major banks ?
> 
> I'd say it's extremely unlikely that bank shareholders in this country will ever lose their investment as the banks profits seem to be continually growing as are their share prices and dividends, so your theoretical calculations are just that, theoretical.




After the 1987 stock market crash and the subsequent demise of Bond Corp, Qintex, Adelaide Steamships etc, some Australian banks were looking very shaky.


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## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Paying shareholders half of the shares dividend yield would be fair I reckon.
> 
> The CBA's yield is about 8% , so 4% on depositor's funds would seem fair.



If CBA was giving 4% interest on deposits, what sort of interest would home buyers pay?


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> If CBA was giving 4% interest on deposits, what sort of interest would home buyers pay?




Does it matter?

Money come at a cost. Why should depositors have to pay for it just so bankers and mortgagee can have it easier?

Putting higher interest on mortgages might mean property prices will come down. That'll disappoint investors with half a dozen properties, but it'd be good for home-owners who's trying to get buy a roof over their head.


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## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> If CBA was giving 4% interest on deposits, what sort of interest would home buyers pay?




I recall paying about 18% at one time.


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## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> If the banks can have it both ways, why can't I?
> 
> Banks have many risks... let's give it that for now.
> 
> ...




Depositors have would have three option.

1, Put cash under mattress at home - Low cost, High risk, no return

2, Store it with a storage company in vault - High Cost, Low risk, no return

3, store it in the banking system - Low/no cost, low risk, some return

Option three is clearly the best.


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I recall paying about 18% at one time.




I remember it well, they weren't giving 4% on deposits then, more like 15%. 
Ah the good old days, rampant inflation, rampant wages and prices, got us where we are today magic times.


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## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Paying shareholders half of the shares dividend yield would be fair I reckon.
> 
> The CBA's yield is about 8% , so 4% on depositor's funds would seem fair.




It's not about dividends, its about return on equity.

But lets say you halve the dividend, and to do that you design the system to halve the return on equity from 16% to 8%.

So share holders are only earning 8% on their capital in the bank, thats a pretty low return on capital, you would find it hard to get investors willing to put up the capital.

*How much do the you want to pay the security holders one level down from share holders, e.g. the unsecured debt holders? *


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## luutzu (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Depositors have would have three option.
> 
> 1, Put cash under mattress at home - Low cost, High risk, no return
> 
> ...





....orrrrr

option 4.... 


btw, do you have to like a company to buy stocks in them?

It really does make you a better person than me though. I know some of the companies I own screws people unfairly, I still buy them. Moral decay, but what can you do?

But ey, I stop at arms manufacturers and tobacco or gambling.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So share holders are only earning 8% on their capital in the bank, thats a pretty low return on capital, you would find it hard to get investors willing to put up the capital.




But 5% (correction) is the CBA's actual current dividend yield ie what the investors are currently getting on their capital and they are not complaining as far as I can see.

If you have CBA at 5% yield and you thought 8% was a bad return you are in for a shock.


----------



## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> .
> 
> 
> btw, do you have to like a company to buy stocks in them?
> .





Yes


> ...orrrrr
> 
> option 4....




Which is?


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I remember it well, they weren't giving 4% on deposits then, more like 15%.
> Ah the good old days, rampant inflation, rampant wages and prices, got us where we are today magic times.





Not much inflation for some decade now. Property prices is sky high for some reason. 

I still remember the good old days when $100K could buy a decent 3-bedroom home in the suburb. The same, now run-down, property now goes for about $700K, easy. 


I was half listening to some lecture about inflation control being a simple tool to help the asset-rich while screwing over the working poor.

Say a young family, working, owing a few hundred grand in mortgage... if inflation were let loose somewhat, their wages will increase while their mortgage will decrease in real term by a heck of a lot.

Can't have that now can we? So fighting and doing everything we can now to keep inflation under control.. keeping a "balance budget", suppress wage increases [to fight the evil inflation]... and still property prices make us all better off?


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But 8% is the CBA's actual current dividend yield ie what the investors are currently getting on their capital and they are not complaining as far as I can see.




Hard to complain when you get people's money for free. Lent out at an average of 200% margin... collect billions in net profit.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> Which is?




Have been telling you.

Anyway, would you deposit your cash, even for a day, for zero real interest? No? Then why is it fair that depositors ought to?

It's a safe place for their money? It's supposed to be safe. And depositors aren't exactly hiring a safety deposit box are they? Their cash is being use the moment it comes into the bank, use to make money for the bank.


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Not much inflation for some decade now. Property prices is sky high for some reason.
> 
> I still remember the good old days when $100K could buy a decent 3-bedroom home in the suburb. The same, now run-down, property now goes for about $700K, easy.
> 
> ...



The property investors in W.A aren't laughing.
I've seen prices in some places, go from $200k to $1m and now back to $200k.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The property investors in W.A aren't laughing.
> I've seen prices in some places, go from $200k to $1m and now back to $200k.




Screwing the young new money is part of the plan too.


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The property investors in W.A aren't laughing.
> I've seen prices in some places, go from $200k to $1m and now back to $200k.



Just wondering if that's "middle of nowhere" or mining towns or is it in places with a more diverse economy?


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just wondering if that's "middle of nowhere" or mining towns or is it in places with a more diverse economy?



Well, there really is no diverse economy in W.A, it is all attached at the hip to mining.
The area I was talking about was the NW of W.A, it was only 5 years ago Labor were bleating about the outrageous cost of housing and rents in the area.
Now they are bleating about the money the Government spent to alleviate the problem, I guess that is the up side to being in opposition.
IMO the only areas in W.A that are showing any upside at the moment, are those in catchment areas for high achievement public schools.
Well here is an example, google Mandurah it is situated about the same distance from Perth, as Geelong is from Melbourne, or Woollongong from Sydney.
A property here can be purchased from as low as $170k, prices there are the same as they were, post GFC.
So this idea the Government needs to jump in, IMO is nonsense, all that is required is the Banks need to ensure they have enough collateral to ensure the investors can cover any losses.
I guess they need to be prudent, as Iuutzu would say.


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Screwing the young new money is part of the plan too.



Yep, everything is part of the plan, it isn't anything to do with peoples choices. Just part of the plan.lol
Let's not blame those who chose to take the risk, to make a killing, let's just blame the plan.
We may well be saying the same about Sydney and Melbourne, in a few years, then it will be yes it was all about ripping us investors off.lol


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Yep, everything is part of the plan, it isn't anything to do with peoples choices. Just part of the plan.lol
> Let's not blame those who chose to take the risk, to make a killing, let's just blame the plan.
> We may well be saying the same about Sydney and Melbourne, in a few years, then it will be yes it was all about ripping us investors off.lol




You know all these policies are made by people right? It's not some invisible hand of "the market" dictating policies based on rational analysis of demand/supply blah blah.

That's not to say that investors aren't also to blame. But not all investor have the knowledge or experience to know when they're being played... and most don't believe their own gov't would be playing them instead of looking after their interests.

Take interest rate.

If interest is low, what will most likely happen to the stock market, the property market? What will investors most likely do when rate is low?

These are known facts. They have worked before and will work again. That's why they're implemented.

Say you run a country... how do you keep the plebs in line? Make sure they keep their heads down, get to work and don't question or annoy you?

Can't beat them up, we're not some dictatorship. We're law and order.

So you get them into debt, most of them. If they don't work, can't pay their debt; if they ask or complaint too much, might get fired; if they take time off to protest, might get fired... How will they pay off all that debt and mortgages if they're fired? So better behave.

How to get them into a mortgage? Put fire under the property market for a few years... see if they wouldn't run out and just buy in case they can't afford it anymore later.

Then with $1M or so mortgage... that'll take a lifetime to pay off. Pretty hard to invisibly push people into "voluntary" good behaviour that long.

In case you think I'm making this up, check out an old Senate hearing where God Greenspan was giddy about how he managed to make the economy going so well (for the rich)...

His secret: *worker insecurity.
*
Create policies where workers aren't paid much, have high debt, and can easily be fired. See if they're brave enough to not work real hard at low wages. 


----

That's not to say that such policy intention are productive or moral. They're not that effective if other costs are taken into account.

Costs like marriage breakup; stress and related illnesses; broken homes and highly stressed population. 

That's fuel for revolution.


----------



## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Have been telling you.
> 
> Anyway, would you deposit your cash, even for a day, for zero real interest? No? Then why is it fair that depositors ought to?
> 
> It's a safe place for their money? It's supposed to be safe. And depositors aren't exactly hiring a safety deposit box are they? Their cash is being use the moment it comes into the bank, use to make money for the bank.



I have cash in a business bank account right now earning 0.01%, and another $18k sitting in a term deposit paying 2%, and that's about all those two holdings diserve to earn, offcourse my funds that I want to earn investment returns on I put them into investments.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I have cash in a business bank account right now earning 0.01%, and another $18k sitting in a term deposit paying 2%, and that's about all those two holdings diserve to earn, offcourse my funds that I want to earn investment returns on I put them into investments.




But you're young and somewhat clever. 

How would an elderly pensioner fare if they cannot afford to put any of their money at risk. How would a person living from paycheck to paycheck and putting aside a few grand for that rainy day?

Tough titties? Their money deserve to be use for free?


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I have cash in a business bank account right now earning 0.01%, and another $18k sitting in a term deposit paying 2%, and that's about all those two holdings diserve to earn, offcourse my funds that I want to earn investment returns on I put them into investments.




You are being ripped off.

1% in a deposit account and 2.6 in a term.

Less fees of course.


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You know all these policies are made by people right? It's not some invisible hand of "the market" dictating policies based on rational analysis of demand/supply blah blah.
> 
> That's not to say that investors aren't also to blame. But not all investor have the knowledge or experience to know when they're being played... and most don't believe their own gov't would be playing them instead of looking after their interests.
> 
> ...




So what is your problem?
Wanting to save the greedy investor, or wanting to put the first home buyer into an overheated market?
Market forces will bring about a correction, at the moment the Government is supporting the boom, it has a two fold effect creates jobs and supplies housing.
The supply of houses and the demand for houses, will match eventually, but usually there is an overrun.
This results in a glut, as as happened in W.A, then you have a resultant drop in prices, or do you think there are endless investors to buy properties they can't rent.


----------



## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But 5% (correction) is the CBA's actual current dividend yield ie what the investors are currently getting on their capital and they are not complaining as far as I can see.
> 
> If you have CBA at 5% yield and you thought 8% was a bad return you are in for a shock.




You are confusing return on the share holders capital ie (return on equity) with dividend yield, the dividend yield is not the important number, it will fluctuate with share price and what directors decide to pay out.

What is important is how much the assets owned by share holders inside the business is earning.

Spend a few minutes reading up on return on equity.

Share holders own the "net worth" of the company, this is called equity, and they want this equity to generate a return for them, when you buy and sell shares you are taking ownership or selling a piece of this equity, that's why shares are sometimes called "equities" 

CBA is currently earning about 16% on it's equity, and the shares are selling for about double the book value of its equity, as an investor return on equity is one of the most important things to understand, it's basically telling you how much the assets owned by the business are generating for their shareholders.


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are being ripped off.
> 
> 1% in a deposit account and 2.6 in a term.
> 
> Less fees of course.




You won't find a business account with the features I need paying 1%, anyway the money doesn't stay their long, and the term deposit is part of a bank guarantee on a business premises lease so I can't really be flexible with it, 

But either way as I said, with these funds I don't see them as investments


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are being ripped off.
> 
> 1% in a deposit account and 2.6 in a term.
> 
> Less fees of course.



Why, even I can see his business account would attract 30% tax. why would he have it in a high yielding account, when it attracts high tax and a lot of accounting fees.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What is important is how much the assets owned by share holders inside the business is earning.




Yes, but if I buy shares in a company and I'm interested in dividend income, what I look for is dividend divided by what I pay for the shares so I can compare that with what I would get from a bank for that amount of money.

And sure yield varies with share price, but the only figure that interests me is the yield at the time I buy the shares.

So you seem to be saying that for CBA the banks assets (in reality the depositors money) is earning 16% , but they are only paying 5% on their share price, then shareholders are being ripped off as well ?


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> So what is your problem?
> Wanting to save the greedy investor, or wanting to put the first home buyer into an overheated market?
> Market forces will bring about a correction, at the moment the Government is supporting the boom, it has a two fold effect creates jobs and supplies housing.
> The supply of houses and the demand for houses, will match eventually, but usually there is an overrun.
> This results in a glut, as as happened in W.A, then you have a resultant drop in prices, or do you think there are endless investors to buy properties they can't rent.




It's not always the greedy investors that get burnt. 

First home buyers are also among them. 

Those lucky enough to have decent job and a partner with a job, planning on starting a family soon... in an overheated market most that can somewhat afford it will rush in "in case" it goes beyond their reach.

The inexperienced, or the over-confident or bored investor might still jump into an overheated market... but most would have already sold out and bagged that profit.

So when the market crash, guess who have the cash lying around to scoop up, rinse and repeat?

---------

There are other ways to encourage jobs in the building industry. It does not need to be new houses.

You make property affordable to most Australians to buy; they buy it and with savings and some spare cash, will start to rennovate, fix up their castle, make it all nice and pretty. 

That create just as many jobs, and jobs for small contractors rather than the big master builder who's screwing over the little sub-contractors... 

When a person own their home and rennovate it, they tend to not go cheap and build dodgy stuff. They, like my Dad, will over-engineer and overdo water-proofing and painting like it's supposed to be.

Most new houses from master builders are pieces of crap. Be lucky if any would last 20 years.

That and when property are high, most would rent... the owner won't be fixing or rennovating it; so it become a slump. 

See how there's at least two ways to get the same economic results. But one is chosen over another. And it tend to happen that the chosen way benefits the rich.

There are classes in society. Serves us well to recognise it even if we ourselves don't think it's right.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but if I buy shares in a company and I'm interested in dividend income, what I look for is dividend divided by what I pay for the shares so I can compare that with what I would get from a bank for that amount of money.
> 
> So you seem to be saying that for CBA the banks assets (in reality the depositors money) is earning 16% , but they are only paying 5% on their share price, then shareholders are being ripped off as well ?



You seem to think, the Banks should be a not for profit organisation?


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> You seem to think, the Banks should be a not for profit organisation?




There is little competition isn't there ?

We used to have mutual societies where the depositors were also shareholders. But they obviously disappeared when greed took hold.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's not always the greedy investors that get burnt.
> 
> First home buyers are also among them.
> 
> ...



They don't have to buy in Sydney, or Melbourne, there are opportunities in regional centres, but those who want a quick profit focus on Sydney and Melbourne.
Don't expect me to be sympathetic to their cause.lol


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is little competition isn't there ?
> 
> We used to have mutual societies where the depositors were also shareholders. But they obviously disappeared when greed took hold.



Funnily enough, I'm a member of P & N Bank, previously I was a member of Energy Credit, which was absorbed, so I really aren't talking from a vested interest.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> They don't have to buy in Sydney, or Melbourne, there are opportunities in regional centres, but those who want a quick profit focus on Sydney and Melbourne.
> Don't expect me to be sympathetic to their cause.lol




I know enough property "investor" to not be sympathetic if they lose. Not that it's a nice thing, but some people "own" three houses and their noses always point to the sky when they talk to me. Asking how my adventure in stock is going.

I'm talking about young home owners.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> You seem to think, the Banks should be a not for profit organisation?




By all mean make profit. Just don't screw over (mainly poor) people and pensioners out of their interest and calling it fair.


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but if I buy shares in a company and I'm interested in dividend income, what I look for is dividend divided by what I pay for the shares so I can compare that with what I would get from a bank for that amount of money.
> 
> So you seem to be saying that for CBA the banks assets (in reality the depositors money) is earning 16% , but they are only paying 5% on their share price, then shareholders are being ripped off as well ?




It's really short sighted to invest based in dividends alone, you should invest based on what the company is going to make in profit and what they plan to do with it.

No, the total profits the bank makes, is 16% of the share holders equity ie the net amount of assets owned by share holders.

For example, you start a pizza shop

You put in $50K of your own money, and borrow $50k from the bank, so you have $100k in total.

You rent a shop front, hired a manager, you spend the $100k to buy a pizza oven, fit out the shop nicely, signage etc.

After 12 months the shop made $55k gross profit, you pay $5k to the bank in interest, you $15k in tax, leaving you with $35k profit.

Your $35k after tax profit is a 70% return based on your equity of $50k you put in at the start.

So you as a share holder are earning a 70% return on equity, which is really good.

Cba is currently earning 16% on the funds its share holders have put in.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Cba is currently earning 16% on the funds its share holders have put in.




Yes fine, but when the shares were originally allocated they would have cost say $1 each. The share price is now say $80. So that 16% is only relevant to the people who bought the shares at issue time correct ? And they are probably all dead or have sold their shares.

So your 16% means nothing to people who buy shares now . Am I right ?


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It's really short sighted to invest based in dividends alone, you should invest based on what the company is going to make in profit and what they plan to do with it.
> 
> No, the total profits the bank makes, is 16% of the share holders equity ie the net amount of assets owned by share holders.
> 
> ...




So you gonna get a Domino franchise or keep owning bank stocks? 

How much profit do you think a pizza shop make per sale? 

Say it's a Pizza Hut pizza at $7 selling price. I'm pretty sure you're not making 200%+ on the main ingredient. And pretty sure the guys that sell you the flour, the cheese aren't selling them to you at less than inflation rate.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> By all mean make profit. Just don't screw over (mainly poor) people and pensioners out of their interest and calling it fair.



I don't think they do, the four major banks take on board all of Australia's borrowings and lending's, this is the reason we didn't fall over in the GFC.
Imagine if we had hundreds of small banks, that were borrowing money from overseas, the GFC happened then the overseas banks call in their debts.
Most of our small banks would have defaulted, because they were on lending the money, at $100 to say $10 deposits.
Then all those smaller banks, would have gone bely up, losing the deposits and the shareholders money.
The four pillars banking system underpins our financial stability, we are a small population, with a ridiculous perception of our importance.
We want the stability of a banking system, that gives us a warm feeling about the security of our money, but we want to screw them down to risking that security.weird IMO
Better still what would you say the banks should lend your money out to start up companies, mining exploration, oil exploration, small business(where 90% fail in the first year) and then what should they give depositors in the way of interest?
Better still everyone is talking a housing bubble, but our banks still have to supply money, for people to buy houses.
Yet they have to remain stable if a bust happens, yet you guys say they are screwing people, would you take on the risk?
They have to, and still be able to manage the fall out if a bust happens, they have a difficult position.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I don't think they do, the four major banks take on board all of Australia's borrowings and lending's, this is the reason we didn't fall over in the GFC.
> Imagine if we had hundreds of small banks, that were borrowing money from overseas, the GFC happened then the overseas banks call in their debts.
> Most of our small banks would have defaulted, because they were on lending the money, at $100 to say $10 deposits.
> Then all those smaller banks, would have gone bely up, losing the deposits and the shareholders money.
> ...





It was the biggest banks in their respective country that crashes themselves and the economy. Not small banks. 

If it was the small banks that crashed, there wouldn't have been any bail out. 

Those bank crashed because they loaded up on CDOs and other useless and worthless paper mortgages and weren't smart enough like Goldman Sachs to get out before it imploded. 

I haven't looked at how the Aussie banks managed to survived it... maybe they're a bit behind and Wall St. figured we're too small on the global scale to bother. That or some good regulation about capital reserves.

But banks don't get strong because they screw depositors over. Well, they do get rich and I guess that make them strong. But why should depositors pay for it anyway?


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> So you gonna get a Domino franchise or keep owning bank stocks?
> 
> How much profit do you think a pizza shop make per sale?
> 
> Say it's a Pizza Hut pizza at $7 selling price. I'm pretty sure you're not making 200%+ on the main ingredient. And pretty sure the guys that sell you the flour, the cheese aren't selling them to you at less than inflation rate.



I am not recommending investing in pizza shops, just trying to help rumple understand return on equity.

But it is quite normal for a lot of businesses to have gross profit margins of more than 200%, gross profit is not net profit.

Also as I said I don't own bank stocks ( except through Berkshire and index funds)


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes fine, but when the shares were originally allocated they would have cost say $1 each. The share price is now say $80. So that 16% is only relevant to the people who bought the shares at issue time correct ? And they are probably all dead or have sold their shares.
> 
> So your 16% means nothing to people who buy shares now . Am I right ?



The 16 percent means everything to the people buying now, it's the rate at which their assets are earning and compounding.

The bank doesn't pay out all its earnings in dividends, it keeps about 20% and reinvests it.

So if it earned $5 per share in earnings, paid out $4 and retained $1.

That $1 could be reinvested back into the business earning 16%, which would mean earnings per share increase next yeah by 16cents per share.

If investors are willing to pay 15 times earnings, that extra 16 cents in earnings will increase the share price by $2.40 so because of the high return on equity the retained $1 grew to $2.40, so you want your company to have a good return on equity, that's the foundation for your profit.

If a company only had a return on equity of 5% the retained dollar would only increase earnings by 5cents, and people would only want to pay less than 10times earnings, meaning the retained $1, would only increase share price by 50centd, making it a terrible investment


----------



## wayneL (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> didn't you just admit before one guys expense is another guys revenue.
> 
> e.g., that "loss" the silly negative gearing guy experiences is adding revenue to the income statement of the banks, banks staff and depositors, where it will be taxed




Is that a zero sum game though?

Somehow, I thing accountants will make sure it isn't.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not recommending investing in pizza shops, just trying to help rumple understand return on equity.




Thanks for your patience.

I get what you are saying, but in the end it's the return to the shareholder not the company that matters to [most] investors.

Retained profits is good for growth so those have to be taken into account if people are going to hold for capital gain.

Most people who want an alternative to a bank deposit would still go for dividend yield I would think.


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I get what you are saying, but in the end it's the return to the shareholder not the company that matters to [most] investors.




The company's returns is what creates the share holders return, 

If a company is to grow profits over time, and therefore grow dividends and capital value, it needs to be earning a decent return on equity.



> Most people who want an alternative to a bank deposit would still go for dividend yield I would think.




initial dividend yield is less important than what the dividend will be next year, or the year after or five years time.

A company that can continually reinvest part of its earnings into investments making a high return on equity invested, can keep continually increasing its dividend, while also growing in capital value.

A company with low return on equity will struggle to grow it'd dividend and capital value.


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Thanks for your patience.
> 
> .





Let me give you another analogy that I think will show the importance of return on equity.

Let's say there is two bank accounts that have come up for sale, which you can bid on.

Bank Account A -
Has $1000 in it, earning 10% and it pay out all $100 of its interest as a dividend each year

Bank Account B-
also has $1000 in it, but it Earns 20% but it only pays out $100 interest as a dividend and retains $100 which it reinvests back into the account earning 20%


Which account is the best to own? which is worth more?

A person looking to earn a 5% dividend might say A and B are equally valuable, because they pay the same $100 dividend they would be willing to buy A and B for $2000 each so that they can earn a 5% yield, and not want to buy B if it were a bit higher in price than A, because it would then have a lower dividend yield.

However, 

B is the best account, because every year it is putting half of its earnings back into the account earning 20%, and even though they both pay the same $100 dividend in year one, B's dividend will continue to grow faster and faster.

After 5 years account B, has $1610 and it pays a $161 Dividend 
After 10 years account B, has $2592 and is paying $259 Dividend
After 20 years account B, has $6722 and is paying $672 Dividend

But if you owned A, it would just continue earning you $100 every year, never growing.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Which account is the best to own? which is worth more?




Yes, you have given a good description of compound interest there and presumably the owner of A could achieve a similar effect by leaving the interest in the account.

In the company situation however, there is no guarantee that retained earnings will be returned to shareholders, it could be used to offset losses or pay off creditors so it's a bit difficult to make a comparison with a bank account in that case.

These sort of fluctuations are reflected in the share price which is the ultimate indicator of company value.


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In the company situation however, there is no guarantee that retained earnings will be returned to shareholders, it could be used to offset losses or pay off creditors so it's a bit difficult to make a comparison with a bank account in that case.



That's been kinda my point all along, e.g. Owning equity in a business has more risk than having a secured deposit in a bank.

Off course a company can make bad investment choices and lose your retained earnings, look at masters, woolies lost millions of share holders equity there.

But, owning a group of companies, with high return on equity, with shareholder focused management, bought at sensible prices will outperform most other investments.

Chasing dividend yield without also making sure the company is generating good internal returns on the capital invested in it can be a disaster.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> That's been kinda my point all along, e.g. Owning equity in a business has more risk than having a secured deposit in a bank.




I have never denied that, I've just questioned your risk/reward equation which tends too much towards shareholders (talking about banks here), who I think we both agree take on very little risk in this country but get much higher rewards than those who supply their trading stock in the first place.


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I have never denied that, I've just questioned your risk/reward equation which tends too much towards shareholders (talking about banks here), who I think we both agree take on very little risk in this country but get much higher rewards than those who supply their trading stock in the first place.




16% for the best in class bank business isn't to high, Consider that the company that makes the flu vaccines is earning about 40%, Woolworths earns like 23%, capilano honey is 28%, 

Even in bad years the miners earn about 10-15%, and in the best years can earn 60%+


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> 16% for the best in class bank business isn't to high, Consider that the company that makes the flu vaccines is earning about 40%, Woolworths earns like 23%, capilano honey is 28%,
> 
> Even in bad years the miners earn about 10-15%, and in the best years can earn 60%+



You are wasting your time, trying to explain something that people don't want to hear.
Pauline, pre election was all for the banking Royal Commission, post election she was given a briefing by the treasury and now not a bleat.
The four pillar banking system, is all that is stopping a wobbly third world economy, from falling over. IMO


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> 16% for the best in class bank business isn't to high, Consider that the company that makes the flu vaccines is earning about 40%, Woolworths earns like 23%, capilano honey is 28%,
> 
> Even in bad years the miners earn about 10-15%, and in the best years can earn 60%+




What's the average ROC for a typical bank depositor?


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> You are wasting your time, trying to explain something that people don't want to hear.
> Pauline, pre election was all for the banking Royal Commission, post election she was given a briefing by the treasury and now not a bleat.
> The four pillar banking system, is all that is stopping a wobbly third world economy, from falling over. IMO




So we should all pay a price and have our deposits used but unfairly paid for... all so the bank can be strong and save the economy?

I'm sure that if depositors earn something from their cash, they'll also contribute to the economy. 

Aren't we a capitalist society? Why should the banks be nannied and permitted to screw over depositors?

This is the same argument the big miners made when Labor thought to tax their super-profit. It'll weaken the economy, jobs will be lost, we need to keep our profit to make us competitive, the Aussies ought to not get their fair share so that we'd make profit and save them by giving them jobs and more money?

How'd that worked out when the global commodity market shrunk? Big miners still keep jobs going? They take out their super profit and keep alive sites and hiring contractors just to keep them working?


----------



## sptrawler (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> What's the average ROC for a typical bank depositor?



That would depend on what they are investing in, if they are just putting their money in the bank, not much at the moment.
However if inflation returns to normal, and bank deposits are returning 7 - 10 %, there will be a massive rush for bank account deposits.
Then shares will tank, and everyone will be bitching about the loss of capital in shares, house prices will drop because a 5% return with a $hit tenant won't cut it.
Then I hope you will be going on about the poor property investor, or the bank shareholder that has his share price halved and dividend less than bank interest. We've seen it all before.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> That would depend on what they are investing in, if they are just putting their money in the bank, not much at the moment.
> However if inflation returns to normal, and bank deposits are returning 7 - 10 %, there will be a massive rush for bank account deposits.
> Then shares will tank, and everyone will be bitching about the loss of capital in shares, house prices will drop because a 5% return with a $hit tenant won't cut it.
> Then I hope you will be going on about the poor property investor, or the bank shareholder that has his share price halved and dividend less than bank interest. We've seen it all before.




It just show my ignorance but aren't more demand for deposits a good thing for banks?

It's not like they'll still be lending out at 4% if deposits/interest rate are 5%. They'll charge deposit+200% on to anyway.

No, I wouldn't be crying for the poor property investor. Not because I have anything against them, but the property market is fairly open and if they do their homework they would know whether a purchase is a good idea or not.

Compare this to the average depositor. The four major bank are colluding to keep interest rate on deposits low. Depositors have little choice but to take it. It's not a free and open market.

I actually prefer a higher interest rate environment. It will weed out bad businesses as the cannot live off of cheap money. 

They will either have to get more productive or close shop. That will mean and more honest and proper market where good business survive and weak ones aren't being prop up by cheap cash. 

Less distortion that way.

If money is so cheap, empire builders will recklessly load up on acquisitions through debt. Inflating prices and giving an inflated price on their own stock.

All that while properly managed, sensible companies with little or no debt, profitable but cautious operators. Their price tend to be depressed or not as sexy as "growth" through acquisition.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Then I hope you will be going on about the poor property investor, or the bank shareholder that has his share price halved and dividend less than bank interest. We've seen it all before.




So then the investor sells their shares and puts the money in the bank. Bank has more liquidity, lends out more money and the cycle goes on.

The bottom line is that more than 50% of the economy is consumer spending. If consumers spend, businesses make money and vice versa. Every buck that non discretionary spending such as increases power prices or increased health insurance takes is less that will be spent at the grocery aisle or at Harvey Norman or at the street cafes. Then business starts whinging about no customers.

So if business screws the consumers, the consumers will screw back but they won't make a fuss about it, they just won't spend any money.

I presume you have noticed that full time jobs are disappearing and wages are going backwards ? Business is laughing at the moment but eventually consumer demand will dry up and the customers won't be spending as much. 


Then we have a recession and everyone loses.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So then the investor sells their shares and puts the money in the bank. Bank has more liquidity, lends out more money and the cycle goes on.
> 
> The bottom line is that more than 50% of the economy is consumer spending. If consumers spend, businesses make money and vice versa. Every buck that non discretionary spending such as increases power prices or increased health insurance takes is less that will be spent at the grocery aisle or at Harvey Norman or at the street cafes. Then business starts whinging about no customers.
> 
> ...




It's killing the host.

This is why pure, unregulated, capitalism will end up destroying its host then die off itself.

I heard, I think it was Chomsky, saying that back in the 50s and 60s, capitalists were a bit smarter. They actually tell the gov't to regulate them from themselves. That if corporations are given free reign, the nature of their structure will mean that they will soon destroy themselves.

So they actually want minimum wages, want unions, want environmental protection. 

When such rules are applied equally across the board, corporate managers will then find it economical and sensible to compete and screw people within that boundary. 

But since then, captains of industries do not think beyond the quarterly reports and short term profit. So they lobbied gov't to deregulate, destroy union and start screwing their own labour force.

When the law permit it, or look the other way, a long term thinking manager who might be somewhat nicer and more humane, that manager cannot decide anything but also screwing the labour force, the environment and past those externalities onto the public and the environment. i.e. that's someone else's problem and they have to make profit, can't play nice or else they'll lose.

So here we are... lobbied to lower taxes, cut away workers protection, environment be damned... Then where's the money to fund and educate future workforce? Where's the money to build infrastructure that help move business along? Who has job security and spare cash to spend a little?


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's killing the host.




The bottom line is that there are more consumers than shareholders and the shareholders depend on the consumers for business profits, so look after the customers and you look after the shareholders.

The problem is that this only works on an economy wide basis, so an individual shareholder in a company says "screw the customer, I want my return". But if every shareholder in all the companies said that then they would be stuffed as well.

Shareholders can't really think beyond their own little world.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> What's the average ROC for a typical bank depositor?




I dont know, but that wouldn't be a good metric to measure anything about depositors, because they aren't investors they are largely consumers using a service. 

It's like saying, what's the return on capital of the average woolworths customer.

But by the way the banks have some of the lowest roc out there


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Shareholders can't really think beyond their own little world.




Thanks a lot? 

Nothing more than a small minded greedy little twit living in a bubble am I?

I actually think its customers that struggle to see the big picture.

Any way, I am out on this conversation, over to the cynics for the last word.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Thanks a lot?
> 
> Nothing more than a small minded greedy little twit living in a bubble am I?




Like most of us you see the world from the view of how it would affect you. What *your* return on *your *investment is.  You don't see things on an economy wide basis. If you can't the sense of what I said in my last two posts then I'm afraid there is little hope of trying to explain it further.

Bottom line is that overall in the total economy (and in individual businesses) there are more customers than investors and if customers are badly treated they go elsewhere and investors don't get a return.

Are you truly unable to accept this ?

I remember being totally ignored in a department store once by four sales assistants who were sitting around chatting. I walked out and never went back. That store has now closed so obviously a few others had the same problem.

As far as banks go in this country the profits of banks are pretty well assured. They look the same, offer similar services and similar rates with little competition to their dominance. They need a shake up. They are getting a grilling in the Parliament but it needs to go further so the public can see how they really operate.

What is cynical about wanting a better deal ?

In fact I can't see anything more cynical than saying that bank depositors deserve bugger all when they are the ones supplying the stock in trade in the first place.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

One way of overcoming the customer/investor conflict.

https://theconversation.com/the-for...in-australias-leading-private-companies-18282


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## Value Collector (8 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> if customers are badly treated they go elsewhere and investors don't get a return.





And that business wouldn't earn a good return on equity would it?

A high return on equity is a sign of a business that is doing a good job, not a bad one.

But I am over this conversation


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The bottom line is that there are more consumers than shareholders and the shareholders depend on the consumers for business profits, so look after the customers and you look after the shareholders.
> 
> The problem is that this only works on an economy wide basis, so an individual shareholder in a company says "screw the customer, I want my return". But if every shareholder in all the companies said that then they would be stuffed as well.
> 
> Shareholders can't really think beyond their own little world.




That's right. 

Big and small corporate titans are given too much credit for being "smart" entrepreneur etc. when anyone could see that what they're doing is not good for them in the long term.

It's like a farmer not taking care of the land or the crops, not feeding their livestock properly. It's not going to end well. 

But I guess there's the nanny state making policies where consumers have little choice but take what's given; and when the big boys fail, it's bail out.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> And that business wouldn't earn a good return on equity would it?
> 
> A high return on equity is a sign of a business that is doing a good job, not a bad one.
> 
> But I am over this conversation




You can earn good returns by screwing over your customers too. Doesn't mean it's a good business.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A high return on equity is a sign of a business that is doing a good job, not a bad one.




That's not the whole story and you know it , or I hope you do.

Any company can earn a high return by being a monopoly or ripping off customers. If ROC is your sole judgement of a company's benefit at large then I think I have proved my point about cynicism.

But I am over this conversation.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I dont know, but that wouldn't be a good metric to measure anything about depositors, because they aren't investors they are largely consumers using a service.
> 
> It's like saying, what's the return on capital of the average woolworths customer.
> 
> But by the way the banks have some of the lowest roc out there




Woolies give a return to its customer - food, groceries at "reasonable" prices in the one convenient location. So that's their customer's return.

Compare that to an average bank depositor, ones whose paycheck comes into the bank, sits there for at least a few day; or sits there for a rainy day... Let say there's 10M account in Australia, each with average of $1000 - amount too low for a term deposit so no or little interest are paid on them.

That's $10 billion dollars. And on average, it moves up and down, but over the entire year there's $10B in deposits everyday the banks get to play with and pay absolutely nothing on them.

That's robbery man.

And these depositors are not paying for a deposit box. It's not storing their jewelries or collectibles. It's cash the bank can use to lend out knowing that there are rules against total withdrawals on a single day.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Woolies give a return to its customer - food, groceries at "reasonable" prices in the one convenient location. So that's their customer's return.
> 
> .





CBA give a return to its customer - Cash storage, transfer and return at "reasonable" prices in the one convenient location. So that's their customer's return.


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## bellenuit (8 March 2017)

Th


Value Collector said:


> CBA give a return to its customer - Cash storage, transfer and return at "reasonable" prices in the one convenient location. So that's their customer's return.




That's why they are called Transaction Accounts and the convenience they offer is worth the lack of interest payment. In most cases the money goes in (usually automatically) every pay day and is withdrawn or expended usually in full before the next pay day. Cash withdrawals can be made for free anywhere in Australia and bills paid automatically by proper set up of the account. There is little to no opportunity for the bank to onlend these funds as they are required to meet daily disbursements. If managed properly by the customer, this is a fantastic facility that can be obtained for free.

If a customer has excess funds regularly left over by the next payday or additional funds from elsewhere, then these should be moved to a Savings Account which offers interest. 

Calling Transaction Accounts a ripoff shows a lack of understanding of their purpose.


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## luutzu (8 March 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Th
> 
> 
> That's why they are called Transaction Accounts and the convenience they offer is worth the lack of interest payment. In most cases the money goes in (usually automatically) every pay day and is withdrawn or expended usually in full before the next pay day. Cash withdrawals can be made for free anywhere in Australia and bills paid automatically by proper set up of the account. There is little to no opportunity for the bank to onlend these funds as they are required to meet daily disbursements. If managed properly by the customer, this is a fantastic facility that can be obtained for free.
> ...




How much is that convenience worth? $100M, $200M a year?

Let's be conservative and assume that every adult Aussie has 1 transaction account.

Assume that their pay and what's set aside or yet to be spent averages a $1000 in each of the account.

Money goes in and goes out for the individual, but not all at once. So on average, the bank pretty much have that $1000 per account each day of the year.

Assume that there's no fees on these account [big assumption there, most would be charging about $10 a month plus some $0.25 per transaction over 5 or six transactions].

At 10M account, $1000 each... that's $10,000,000,000 sitting in people's account that the bank does not pay any interest on, and can play with.

If the bank were to be charged at rate they're charging their borrowers, at say 3%... that's $300Million a year.

So much for being nice and kind and not at all gouging customers.

The banks are abusing their practically monopolistic position and robbing people blind. 

yet that's a fair dinkum. Good on 'em. Offering invaluable service for "free", make only some profit so that the economy remain strong. 

This is Alice in Wonderland stuff.


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## Value Collector (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> If the bank were to be charged at rate they're charging their borrowers, at say 3%... that's $300Million a year.




Firstly they need to pay less to their suppliers than they charge customers, just like Woolies and Coles.

but ok, so lets say they are charging customers indirectly $300M each year, for the service the customers are taking for granted

How much would it cost to provide that service?

If I gave you that $300Million, how much of it would you have to spend to replicate  even just the big fours ATM networks including renting sites, maintaining them and armour guard deliveries etc, the call centres dealing with customer enquires, the bank tellers, the software systems, the physical moving and storing cash, processing checks etc.

Or did you think the expense fairy paid the cost of providing those services?


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly they need to pay less to their suppliers than they charge customers, just like Woolies and Coles.
> 
> but ok, so lets say they are charging customers indirectly $300M each year, for the service the customers are taking for granted
> 
> ...




Look, the fact is that banks have saved millions over the years by replacing staff with ATM's and saving the salary cost. Sure there are costs associated with ATM's but if it was less profitable than getting rid of staff then they wouldn't be doing it.

Instead of passing these savings to customers they pass it to their profits, but they are very quick to pass on RBA interest rate reductions to their customers.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly they need to pay less to their suppliers than they charge customers, just like Woolies and Coles.
> 
> but ok, so lets say they are charging customers indirectly $300M each year, for the service the customers are taking for granted
> 
> ...




First, practically all the set up costs were paid for by the government, i.e. taxpayers. All the tech, the sites, the infrastructure etc. etc. were set up and paid for by the gov't before it was offloaded, for a song, to private banking enterpreneurs and their "mom and pop" sharedolders.


Second, give any idiot $300M a year, that's per year, and trust me, they'll set up networks and ATMs like they're getting $300M a year forever.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> .It's like a farmer not taking care of the land or the crops, not feeding their livestock properly. It's not going to end well.




It can work very well in the short term but it's ends in disaster in the longer term.

It's like machinery. You can make the financials look good by (1) running the machinery as hard and fast as it can possibly go whilst (2) minimising maintenance which costs through lost production, wages, materials and so on.

Doing that makes you look good. Look see, we've increased production, got our costs right down and everything's going just fine.

Then a point comes where you find that your machinery doesn't just need a service but instead is completely stuffed and requires total replacement. Meanwhile you notice others who didn't run it as hard as it would go and who kept up the maintenance are having no such problems and are carrying on business as usual. 

It sounds silly but there are plenty who have done it over the years. Land, animals, staff, machinery and so on can all have the **** flogged out of them in the short term until they collapse in a heap.


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## sptrawler (8 March 2017)

Well I guess it can be said, there is the option of using overseas banks, like HSBC, Citi etc.
Maybe they will offer better service and returns, as their Australian subsidiaries, are a small part of their global footprint.
Their obvious leverage to the bigger global market, should enable them to undercut, the Australian banks.
It might be just a case of shopping around, for the best deal.
It may be just like the Australian car industry, they rode the consumer into the ground, on the basis they had the dealer network.
Eventually everyone bought the better overseas product, despite the service challenges, so maybe people should talk with their feet.
Find another bank other than the big 4, and support them, I know I do.
I also know Telstra is feeling the pain of competition, people are talking with their feet, with regard telco providers.


----------



## Logique (9 March 2017)

Will be watching with interest in future, Ms Ellis' pronouncements about gender quotas and the gender pay gap. And her former colleague Nicola Roxon too.


> Kate Ellis to quit frontbench, forcing Bill Shorten to reshuffle - 9th March 2017
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ill-shorten-to-reshuffle-20170308-guu2n8.html
> 
> Labor frontbencher *Kate Ellis is set to quit politics* at the next election after more than a decade in federal parliament to spend more time with her young son.
> ...


----------



## Logique (10 March 2017)

Let's have a 50% quota of men in nursing, primary school teaching and librarians. And 50% quota of women in plumbing, motor mechanics and garbage collection. It cuts both ways.

Not that Ellis will mind, swanning off with her indexed parliamentary pension.


> HOWARD’S POINT PROVED - Tim Blair, The Daily Telegraph
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/bl...d/news-story/4f3e53c43f5d676a777c5fbbc5531689
> March 9, 2017 - Labor’s Kate Ellis takes issue with John Howard on the topic of women in politics.
> The Australian reports: Labor Shadow Minister for Early Education, Kate Ellis, has hit out at former Prime Minister John Howard ...
> ...


----------



## noco (20 April 2017)

Latest poll on who would make the best leader....Note Malcolm Turnbull did not get one vote.

Bill Shorten came in second lowest with just 11%.

https://www.votocrat.com/isabella.g...ents-in-politics-who-do-you-find-them-in-most


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## PZ99 (20 April 2017)

Looks rigged to me


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## noco (20 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Looks rigged to me




Looks can be deceiving...It just confirms that neither of our two leaders are worthy of the job.


----------



## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

Last time I checked it has Bill Shorten a long way in front followed by Tony Abbott.

Tony Abbott has been white anting this Govt all year and this is after it was revealed how Turnbull and the Govt made a massive campaign effort in Warringah to prevent Tony Abbott from loosing his seat at the last election. 

http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...n/news-story/b3dab19f9532c009d2221c505266bac3

I agree that neither Shorten or Turnbull are worthy of the job but for Tony Abbott to score any votes at all after his imbecilic behavior tells me it's rigged. The only way the Coalition can save us from a Bill Shorten Govt is to sack Tony Abbott and do it now.


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## Tisme (21 April 2017)

Bill Shorten polling at 57% there Noco. It's not like you to promote Billy Boy ?


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## noco (21 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> Bill Shorten polling at 57% there Noco. It's not like you to promote Billy Boy ?



I think are you referring to the poll of the political parties and not Bill Shorten....I think you have your lines crossed on this occasion.


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## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

LOL Can't be real. Even the comments are saying it's rigged


----------



## Tisme (21 April 2017)

noco said:


> I think are you referring to the poll of the political parties and not Bill Shorten....I think you have your lines crossed on this occasion.


----------



## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

Notice how Bill is on the left and everyone else on the right? It's a hidden message


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## Tisme (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> View attachment 70770
> 
> 
> LOL Can't be real. Even the comments are saying it's rigged





Certainly goes against the NewsCorpLNP polls doesn't it. Be interesting to know the real polling that Labor has.


----------



## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

If the Coalition sack Tony Abbott they'll win the next election. That's my tip.


----------



## Tisme (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> If the Coalition sack Tony Abbott they'll win the next election. That's my tip.




Move Morrison on to London and Abetz out the back door


----------



## noco (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Last time I checked it has Bill Shorten a long way in front followed by Tony Abbott.
> 
> Tony Abbott has been white anting this Govt all year and this is after it was revealed how Turnbull and the Govt made a massive campaign effort in Warringah to prevent Tony Abbott from loosing his seat at the last election.
> 
> ...




I really don't believe Abbott is white anting the government in as much as  he is trying to persuade Turnbull to move back to the right of true conservatives......There are lots of other Liberal back benches who think the same way.....Bernardi and Christenson are two examples.....Turnbull is not heeding what voters are saying hence the rise of One Nation and Cory Bernardi.
I do not believe Tony Abbott would ever be returned as leader and furthermore IMHO it would be a disaster....The only hope we have at this stage is if Turnbull resigns and hands over the leadership to rising start Peter Dutton....Peter Dutton is much further to the right of true conservationism.....With the adverse polls going against  Turnbull, he should do the honorable thing and resign to save the Liberal Party for the way things are heading Turnbull will hand the reigns over to Bill Shorten at the next election.....Perhaps this may be the plot between Turnbull and Shorten.......Turnbull is more Labor than Liberal and I cannot understand why Labor refused his application as a member of the Labor Party some years ago.....Perhaps they (Labor) thought he would be more use to them as a Liberal and that seems to be proving correct.


----------



## noco (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> If the Coalition sack Tony Abbott they'll win the next election. That's my tip.



I am sorry to disagree with you but Turnbull will loose the next election with or without Abbott on the scene.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 April 2017)

noco said:


> The only hope we have at this stage is if Turnbull resigns and hands over the leadership to rising start Peter Dutton....Peter Dutton is much further to the right of true conservationism




Dumb and dumber all rolled into one.


----------



## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

noco said:


> I am sorry to disagree with you but Turnbull will loose the next election with or without Abbott on the scene.



Fair enough 

I must add that I'm running last in the stock tipping comp so I'm probably wrong here too. LOL


----------



## noco (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> View attachment 70770
> 
> 
> LOL Can't be real. Even the comments are saying it's rigged




And what poll was that and when was it taken?


----------



## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

noco said:


> And what poll was that and when was it taken?



It's the poll you hot-linked in post #481.


----------



## noco (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> It's the poll you hot-linked in post #481.




Something smells here...That is not the original poll I presented in my post#481......The one I posted had Bill Shorten at 11% and Turnbull with 0%....Some smart Alec has done a computer fiddle.


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## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

Yep. It's rigged. All those sort of polls are. They're not real, a bit of light entertainment at best.


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## Tisme (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Yep. It's rigged. All those sort of polls are. They're not real, a bit of light entertainment at best.





It a poll still running ffs. It's not rigged, the turnout and the flavour of the voters is the driving force. I'm the one who voted Malcolm and it registered LOL


----------



## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

LOL! You gave Malcolm Turnbull 8 votes???


----------



## Tisme (21 April 2017)

PZ99 said:


> LOL! You gave Malcolm Turnbull 8 votes???





Two actually on different PCs, so there must be another 3 people out there who can see the same strength of character in Malcolm that I see.


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## PZ99 (21 April 2017)

I gave him half a vote


----------



## Tink (24 July 2017)

Tony Abbott's Liberal Party reform motion for plebiscites to select candidates passes

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...r-voting-website-crashes-20170723-gxgxq8.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-...mpower-nsw-liberals-passes-party-vote/8736008


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## SirRumpole (24 January 2018)

*Sugar tax and the power of big business: How influence trumps evidence in politics*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-24/sugar-tax-and-the-power-of-big-business/9353626


----------



## Logique (24 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> *Sugar tax and the power of big business: How influence trumps evidence in politics*
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-24/sugar-tax-and-the-power-of-big-business/9353626



I thought it might be worth a read, until I saw the author, Emma Alberici!

At the national broadcaster, the least she can do is provide balance in her articles. But this is just an anti-sugar advertorial, masquerading as news. Journo playing activist. Typically, more tax is the answer to everything. But where does predatory taxation start and finish?

On a good wage at the ABC is Emma .. but ordinary folks must pay higher grocery bills apparently. What's next on the Nanny State hit list? Chocolate? Ice cream? Breakfast cereals? Fruit juices? We already know that an alcohol tax is in their sights.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 January 2018)

Logique said:


> . but ordinary folks must pay higher grocery bills apparently.




Not if they don't buy sugary drinks. And if the bottlers cut down on added sugar the customers would not have to pay higher prices.


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## PZ99 (24 January 2018)

If I had a choice between a sugar tax or broadening the GST onto food I'll take the sugar tax any day.


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## SirRumpole (24 September 2018)

We have the best government money can buy...

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...or-lobbyists-or-special-interests-study-finds


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## Tink (9 November 2018)

Gun lobby spends big in Victorian election

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...ig-in-victorian-election-20181108-p50ev7.html

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10...play-role-in-more-election-campaigns/10395516


----------



## PZ99 (9 November 2018)

Gotta be kidding. Victoria is violent enough thank you.

Mass shootings all over the US and these boofheads want guns on streets here?

Nah... I'll vote for law and order, not guns and ammo.


----------



## Tink (10 November 2018)

Bourke St again.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...ot-after-car-fire-stabbings-one-dead/10483608


----------



## Knobby22 (10 November 2018)

Tink said:


> Bourke St again.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...ot-after-car-fire-stabbings-one-dead/10483608



He could only get a knife. Thank Howard for our gun laws. We must keep enforcing them vigently.
I was working one block away from the incident.


----------



## Tink (15 November 2018)

In Victoria -

_The State Funeral for Sisto Malaspina will be held at St Patrick's Cathedral in East Melbourne, at 10:30am on Tuesday 20 November._


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 November 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Thank Howard for our gun laws.



I wouldn't describe myself as generally a supporter of the Liberals but Howard deserves full credit for that one.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 November 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> He could only get a knife. Thank Howard for our gun laws. We must keep enforcing them vigently.
> I was working one block away from the incident.




Even with our gun laws there have been several shocking gun crimes recently.

People killing their own families, wives, ex wives or partners and children, but the media doesn't make a fuss about that sort of thing even though it costs more lives than any terrorism attack to date.

It can't be said that we have gun laws "right" at this point in time.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 November 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> It can't be said that we have gun laws "right" at this point in time.



They may not be perfect but they're a lot better than they were and orders of magnitude better than the USA.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 November 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> and orders of magnitude better than the USA.




Virtually anything would be better than the USA.

No where else in the civilised world has a worse record, it's shameful. 

I can see another civil war coming there if any government tries to tighten up the gun laws.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 November 2018)

There is no doubt that Howard did the right thing on gun laws, but there are people around who want to undo the good work.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-16/how-australias-nra-inspired-gun-lobby/10503790


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

Logique said:


> I thought it might be worth a read, until I saw the author, Emma Alberici!
> 
> At the national broadcaster, the least she can do is provide balance in her articles. But this is just an anti-sugar advertorial, masquerading as news. Journo playing activist. Typically, more tax is the answer to everything. But where does predatory taxation start and finish?
> 
> On a good wage at the ABC is Emma .. but ordinary folks must pay higher grocery bills apparently. What's next on the Nanny State hit list? Chocolate? Ice cream? Breakfast cereals? Fruit juices? We already know that an alcohol tax is in their sights.




Did you read the analysis or not Logique? It was very good analysis of the effect  over consumption of sugar has on health and the effective way a sugar tax can reduce consumption and help health.
The example of taxing cigarettes and grog is obvious.
Well worth a read and think.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

Yesterday Richard Di Natale was thrown out of the Senate for refusing to retract his  comment  that Senator Barry O' Sullivan was a pig. 
Senator Di Natale came back into the House today and opened up a debate on the need for respect in Parliament and in particular the deliberate  lack of respect by some members towards women in Parliament. Interestingly the targets of his comments refused to stay and listen.

Well worth a read.

*Di Natale calls three senators who walked out 'cowards'*
*Richard Di Natale*:

It is not my intention to disrespect the Senate or its processes. I have great respect for this institution. It is one of the honours of my life to be standing here representing the people of my home state and leading the Australian Greens. It is a privilege and an honour to do it, and I reflect on that every day.

This is a place where all of us can help shape the nature of our society. Indeed, we can be a force for good. Mr President, that’s why I couldn’t withdraw my statement yesterday, because *the repeated shaming and innuendo directed and not just across at this side of the chamber but directed right across the Senate is reinforcing a culture of workplace harassment and the open harassment of women in our society*.

Australia does have a deep and disturbing problem of violence against women. I remember *Malcolm Turnbull*, the former prime minister, saying that not all disrespect towards women leads to violence but that’s where all the violence against women starts.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...b04e8ca091e40b#block-5bfdcffde4b04e8ca091e40b


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

*Conservative senators walk out as Greens leader slams their treatment of women*

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...ns-leader-calls-out-sexist-behaviour/10561496

So how should one respond when a Senator Barry O Sullavin says..

"Parliament descended into ugly scenes on Tuesday afternoon after Senator O'Sullivan said Senator Hanson-Young had "a bit of [Nick] Xenophon in her — and I don't mean that to be a double reference"."


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

Another hit for the Liberal Party onb their treatment of women.

*Julia Banks dropped a bombshell on Scott Morrison's Liberals, with precision*

Julia Banks' extraordinary decision to resign as a Liberal MP and plunge the Morrison Government further into minority sends a devastating message to voters that the Liberal Party is hostile to women.

It's the message she wanted to send.

The narrative that the conservative side of politics has become anti-women has been bolstered by a range of female voices both on and off the record who have been agitating for change.

Until now we have heard strong words, but little action from those who have spoken out against bullying, intimidation and a broader culture problem inside the governing party. Ms Banks' move to the crossbench sends a signal that the crisis she identifies inside the Liberal Party — including the actions and ideas of the so called "reactionaries" — is so profound she is prepared to be accused of being a traitor and a political rat to deliver her point.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...banks-australian-parliament-liberals/10560914


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

Been some very quick action in the Senate after the uproar over Senator Barry O'Sullovan latest  slur to Sarah Hansen Young  Greens and Richard Di Natales white hot, head on response which ended up involving all political parties.

Final result ? Changing Senate procedures to deny Senators a free sledging kick.

*Senate changes procedures after O'Sullivan comment*
In the fastest I have seen the Senate work since I stepped into this place two and a bit years ago, the procedures committee have come back after *Scott Ryan* suggested changes to how formal business motions are dealt with this morning, and came back with a resounding, yes, do that.

So now, during formal business, when motions get moved, senators will no longer be able to debate before attempting to suspend standing orders, to bring the debate on.

What we are talking about here are some of the crazy motions we have seen put forward in recent months. ‘Formality is denied’ – ie, the Senate says no, but then the Senator can move to suspend standing orders. *During that procedure, we have increasingly seen the suspend standing order debates being used as a sledging fest. And it’s all been getting a bit gross. The senators know that the motions have no chance of getting up, that standing orders won’t be suspended, so they use the time as a slanging match.*

*And a cohort of senators, the collective of which is known as a “Jurassic”, have been using that to go nuts.*

But no more.

Now, for at least the duration of this parliament, when someone wants to suspend standing orders, there will be no debate – just a division.

Which takes a way one of the main forums for some of the, shall we say grotesque unpleasantness we have seen in the Senate over the last couple of months. 
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...rison-dutton-shorten-australian-politics-live


----------



## wayneL (28 November 2018)

Can someone explain why O'Sullivans comments were sexist? I must have wagged school that day.  I don't get it.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

*What was happening in the Senate
*
For many months now  O'Sullivan,  Anning, and the Liberal Democrat creep have trying to mind - xuck Sarah Hansen-Young. 

The process is simple.  They make nasty, sexist, slanderous comments at the back of the room which can't be picked up by the microphones but are heard and intended to be heard by Sarah Hansen Young. 

They are intended to belittle and intimidate her. Because they are not made out loud they aren't able to be challenged because they are not on tape. If Sarah does make a challenge they can just deny it and grin. If she just swallows it they have got in another little mind-xuck.

I recognise it well because it is the one of the oldest and most lethal tactics students use in a classroom to undermine a teacher - particulaly if it's a female.

Other people knew it of course but coming out in defense if the person is always a challenge. Yesterday Barry O'Sullivan came out with his snide little jibe about Sarah Hansen-Young "having a bit of (Nick) Xenophen in her ". Senator Di Natale decided to go full throttle on the comment itself but also all the nasty, sexist jibes made in the past few months. He was determined to shame them all and effectively demand that the Senate take action to stop this corrosive behaviour. No surprise to hear   Sullivan and co  just walked out of the chamber.

To date the most immediate outcome has been changes to the Senate procedures that will deny O'Sullivan and co the opportunity to make these "sotte voce" comments. But interestingly representatives from all parties  acknowledged that this was serious stuff and damaged the integrity of the Parliament.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

The Guardian did a good summary of the last two days in the Senate.
* Why parliament still tolerates thuggery not acceptable in broader society *
Katharine Murphy
LNP Senator Barry O’Sullivan blew the lid off with a comment he made about the Greens’ Sarah Hanson-Young

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...es-thuggery-not-acceptable-in-broader-society


----------



## PZ99 (28 November 2018)

wayneL said:


> Can someone explain why O'Sullivans comments were sexist? I must have wagged school that day.  I don't get it.



I'm guessing the phrase "there was a bit of _Nick Xenophon_ in" SHY suggests that in a past life norty Nick might have inserted his 5_¼_ inch floppy disk and pressed any key to continue.. 

Apart from that.. no idea.


----------



## bellenuit (28 November 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I'm guessing the phrase "there was a bit of _Nick Xenophon_ in" SHY suggests that in a past life norty Nick might have inserted his 5_¼_ inch floppy disk and pressed any key to continue..
> 
> Apart from that.. no idea.




Certainly not the meaning when the full quote is seen. He is referring to Xenephon calling for committees to be established and then failing to attend those committees. It is only offensive, IMO, if you deliberately choose to be offended and assume the meaning that he deliberately ruled out.

I have often heard the expression "there is a bit of so-and-so in him/her" and it has always been taken to mean that he or she exhibits similar characteristics as so-and-so.

The fact that SHY keeps referring to herself as a slut is something that only she can vouch for.

Just my take.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Certainly not the meaning when the full quote is seen. He is referring to Xenephon calling for committees to be established and then failing to attend those committees. It is only offensive, IMO, if you deliberately choose to be offended and assume the meaning that he deliberately ruled out.
> 
> I have often heard the expression "there is a bit of so-and-so in him/her" and it has always been taken to mean that he or she exhibits similar characteristics as so-and-so.
> 
> ...




He did qualify before he said the comment, what he was meaning by the reference, so it wouldn't be misconstrued.
I don't watch Government on tv, it is bad enough living with the outcomes, but it looked as though the Greens jumped on it and ran with it.


----------



## bellenuit (28 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> but it looked as though the Greens jumped on it and ran with it.




They only hear what they want to hear.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

Bellenuit, the reference by Barry O'Sullivian to a "a bit of Xenepohen in her " was a a crafty line intended to to portray Sarah Hansen Young as a sex partner of Xen  and  was quickly and completely understood by the rest of the house.  This was because of Barrys long history of snide comments to SHY  mostly made "sotte voce".  In this case he managed to "slip it in" and then "retract" it - but of course he had still made his jab.

I outlined the history of what has happened in the Senate. If you care to look you'll see that the conservative Libs in particular have decided to attack the Greens but SHY in particular and decided that personal attacks are just far more effective than debating policies. In her case she is an outspoken woman. 
Think Julia Gillard with a few less brains and a bit less class.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2018)

Well it is a bit like saying their is a bit of Julia Gillard, in Sarah Hanson Young, some would say she is playing the same game.
I personally thought Gillard, from my limited viewing of the incident, basically verbally abused Abbott.
It seems as though abuse is becoming a one way street, I read the other day, that over 80 teachers in W.A have compo claims totaling over $1million  for physical assault by students.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-school-assaults-in-2017-20171211-h02s3j.html

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news...s/news-story/6b8546968d57203b5ca35cb5cb4985f1

It would appear that abuse isn't gender and or age specific.


----------



## bellenuit (28 November 2018)

basilio said:


> Bellenuit, the reference by Barry O'Sullivian to a "a bit of Xenepohen in her " was a a crafty line intended to to portray Sarah Hansen Young as a sex partner of Xen and was quickly and completely understood by the rest of the house.




Bas, then they all got it wrong as he clearly ruled that out in the same sentence and explained exactly what he was referring to. It is the Greens foul outburst that made offence out of non-offence.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2018)

If Barry O'Sullivian wanted  to compare SHY to Nick Xenephon he could have quite easily said something like "it seems similiar to what Nick Xenephon was doing".  That would have worked quite well without the (snide) ambiguity he introduced with his "a bit of Xen in her"

No misunderstandings here folks.* Everyone *understood the jab. The over the top response was for everything that had been said and to date got away with. When you read the response of the Speaker he quickly acknowledges the history of gratuitous sledging which he believes should be stopped if the Senate is to regain it's dignity.


----------



## bellenuit (28 November 2018)

basilio said:


> That would have worked quite well without the (snide) ambiguity he introduced with his "a bit of Xen in her"




But Bas it wasn't in the least bit ambiguous. He clearly stated the meaning of what he said. The Greens deliberately chose to take the meaning he had specifically ruled out.  They wanted to take offence and wanted to ascribe that offence to something that wasn't said.

Of course he could have worded it differently. But that is a common expression and if anyone wanted to take offence with it then they would likely take offence with any other way he might say it.

Not only did he reject any double entendre within the same sentence, he then clearly stated why SHY was acting like Xenephon.

IMO the Left have a history of looking for offence where there isn't. Look at the "Ditch the witch" remarks against Abbott while the very same people were running around singing "Ho Ho the Witch is dead" when Margaret Thatcher died. And what was the other great crime Gillard referenced? Oh yes, Abbott looked at his watch when she was talking.


----------



## Darc Knight (29 November 2018)

wayneL said:


> Can someone explain why O'Sullivans comments were sexist? I must have wagged school that day.  I don't get it.




We normally disagree Banjo boy but on this one I'm still unaware of what happened. Theres SHY exposing cleavage in the House whilst crying sexism. You reckon she didn't wear that on purpose to bait a reaction.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 November 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> We normally disagree Banjo boy but on this one I'm still unaware of what happened. Theres SHY exposing cleavage in the House whilst crying sexism. You reckon she didn't wear that on purpose to bait a reaction.




A lot of stupid bickering going on about fairly trivial behaviour.

Sarah is no shrinking violet and de Natalie's reaction was over the top.

I wish they would start discussing things that affect the rest of us, not just them.


----------



## wayneL (29 November 2018)

I was fairly hopeful of some sensibility from the Greens whwn Di Natalie became leader. He seemed pretty level headed at the time. 

He seems to becoming more and more unhinged  aling the rest of the Greens. 

As much as I really strongly disagree with current Labor policy,  they have got it together. It will be a bloody disaster fiscally and culturally,  but in terms of discipline, they are the only part that deserve goverment. 

...unfortunately


----------



## PZ99 (29 November 2018)

If Labor are going to dominate the election I'll vote for someone else. Never been a fan of dictatorship. I'll go with the secular mob:  https://www.secular.org.au/

Any far cups by the next govt are therefore not my fault


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 November 2018)

Tasmanian Premier Will Hodgman survived a no confidence motion by one vote.

Media coverage in SA of “Liberals facing country revolt on many fronts”.

Unofficially there seems to be a lot of concern about the outcome of next year’s NSW state election.

It would seem at least plausible that we’re heading to a situation in a few years where Labor holds most or all states as well as federally.

The Liberals only have themselves to blame for the situation.


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> Tasmanian Premier Will Hodgman survived a no confidence motion by one vote.
> 
> Media coverage in SA of “Liberals facing country revolt on many fronts”.
> 
> ...



The only thing with that, Labor don't take long to blow their feet off either, so it is a bit of roundabout and swings situation.
As usual, the Libs aren't doing anything that Labor didn't do the last time they were in, it isn't anything new. Remember the Rudd, Gillard, Rudd fiasco.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The only thing with that, Labor don't take long to blow their feet off either, so it is a bit of roundabout and swings situation.
> As usual, the Libs aren't doing anything that Labor didn't do the last time they were in, it isn't anything new. Remember the Rudd, Gillard, Rudd fiasco.




Rudd was a destructive little sod and it was only a matter of time before he got knifed.

Gillard was torched for her carbon tax flip, even though it might have been good policy at the time and given some direction on energy policy.

Shorten seems much more likely to hold the team together and Labor's voting system means he's less likely to be thrown out. The main danger with Labor as it always has been is militant unions and whether the Labor leadership can stand up to them like Hawke and Keating did.

Sally McMannus looks to me like an old school commie unionist spoiling for a fight, and together with the CFMEU could pose problems for Labor if they get above their station.


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Rudd was a destructive little sod and it was only a matter of time before he got knifed.
> 
> Gillard was torched for her carbon tax flip, even though it might have been good policy at the time and given some direction on energy policy.
> 
> ...




You are spot on Rumpy, it seems to happen to all Governments, I think a lot of the discontent is the media making stories out of nothing.
I suppose with Australia being such a small Country on the World stage and such a small population, the press to some degree has to make their own news.
When labor went down last time, it took a lot of their older talent with it, so Shorten probably has the advantage of a lot of younger players on the team.
Which will probably help him maintain control, he certainly is running a tight submarine at the moment, everything is going under the radar.
I think the unions will give him a lot of trouble, the tax policy will affect the union members, as they fall into that $100k - $150k band.


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2018)

IMO one thing that has become blatantly obvious, since Turnbull left, is that he should never have been there in the first place.
It is sad really, when someone thinks they are the team, rather than a player in the team.
The media, shoved him down the Liberal Parties throat, and now the media is upset when they chucked him up.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> IMO one thing that has become blatantly obvious, since Turnbull left, is that he should never have been there in the first place.



Agreed about Turnbull but from comments I've heard from various people the Liberals really do need to convince the masses that they won't stand the likes of Abbott or other conservative "Right" types in the future either.

Remove any hints of religion or "Right" conservatism and start representing the middle class and then they'll gain support. That means ditching much of their current thinking and of course ditching many of their backers as well.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed about Turnbull but from comments I've heard from various people the Liberals really do need to convince the masses that they won't stand the likes of Abbott or other conservative "Right" types in the future either.
> 
> Remove any hints of religion or "Right" conservatism and start representing the middle class and then they'll gain support. That means ditching much of their current thinking and of course ditching many of their backers as well.
> 
> Just my thoughts.



I don't often disagree with you smurph, but a lot of the anti Abbott feeling is media generated and IMO baseless.
I have pointed out on numerous occassions where  Rumpy has been aligned with Abbott's beliefs, which is hard to believe because you can't get more anti Abbott than Rumpy.

Religion shouldn't play a part in anything, it should be there for those that want it, but it should play no part in politics.
As for the Liberal Party backers, from what I've read the Libs are pretty well broke.
There is this great media backed myth that they are funded for and act on the behalf of big business, but if I heard correctly Turnbull had to throw his own money in, to fund the campaign.
So if there is any big funders behind the scenes, I would guess Labor are getting it.
Just my opinion as usual, but I do try to think beyond the press rhetoric.


----------



## Humid (29 November 2018)

Here we go again ......media generated 
So where do the enlightened like you get your info from that others don’t seem to have access to?


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2018)

Humid said:


> Here we go again ......media generated
> So where do the enlightened like you get your info from that others don’t seem to have access to?




By thinking about the issues, rather than reading by numbers.


----------



## Darc Knight (30 November 2018)

If Senators were abusing SHY she should've taped them rather than grand standing. And dressing like she was isn't appropriate in the House.



sptrawler said:


> I don't often disagree with you smurph, but a lot of the anti Abbott feeling is media generated and IMO baseless.




Not sure about that Homer. Abbott was a head kicker in the Howard Govt. One of the grubbiest around. Yes he's polished himself now but back then geez.
And right wing media portray him as the second coming of Christ now.

And what are we doing discussing this at 11pm. Hot chocolate and counting sheep time.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> By thinking about the issues, rather than reading by numbers.



I just went to the SMH, to find a current article, to try and explain.

The Headline is : Parties urged not to squander 21 billion dollar* windfall*.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...ndfall-on-election-spree-20181129-p50j4l.html

From the article:
The assessment by the Parliamentary Budget Office, delivered two days after Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced an April budget ahead of a likely May election, shows *Commonwealth spending restraint as well as surging income tax revenue and company profits have put the government on track to net an extra $21.3 billion by 2021*.

So in reality it isn't a windfall, it is spending restrain and increased business activity, which the Government should probably take some credit for.
But no it is a windfall pure chance, the Government had a big lotto win.
That is misrepresentation IMO, but hey it is only my opinion.

They could have made the headline:
*this will be the first Government surplus since 2008.*
Or they could have mentioned from the same article:
*median earnings in Australia increased by 5.4 per cent over the year to August 2018, the largest increase since 2005, according to the ABS*.

But hey that wouldn't be good, why put positive spin on anything Liberal related, after all it is the SMH.


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> And what are we doing discussing this at 11pm. Hot chocolate and counting sheep time.



It's only 9pm here, but I have put the ovaltine on, got to keep Mrs Trawler happy.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I don't often disagree with you smurph, but a lot of the anti Abbott feeling is media generated and IMO baseless.
> 
> Religion shouldn't play a part in anything, it should be there for those that want it, but it should play no part in politics.




We're going to disagree about something sometime. 

My _perception_ of Abbott though, and I'll readily acknowledge it does come via the media since I've only met him once, is of allowing his personal religious beliefs to interfere with politics. That may be wrong but it is certainly my perception.

Australia could be described as a Christian society to a point certainly but it's one where most don't take it particularly seriously. They'll celebrate Christmas and know the Bible exists but that's pretty much it really for most. 



> There is this great media backed myth that they are funded for and act on the behalf of big business




I think most have an underlying assumption that anyone elected to parliament is going to represent _someone._

Labor is associated with the unions to a point still.

National is associated with farmers to some extent yes.

Greens aren't a serious contender for government but they do raise a lot of "Left" issues so at least we sort of know where their thinking is at.

Liberals? Who do they represent? To me that's not at all clear beyond saying it isn't normal employee workers, it isn't the natural environment, it doesn't really seem to be small business beyond a very limited extent and it isn't anything of a scientific or technical nature which itself covers a pretty big slice of the pie these days. 

So who _do_ they represent?

I doubt many people could really answer that question at the moment.

None of that is to say Labor will do any better. That's a different question entirely.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 November 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Hot chocolate and counting sheep time.



The rising price of electricity makes the "hot" bit too expensive these days.

Labor's taxation ideas means people will need to cut spending. There goes the chocolate.

The sheep fell victim to the drought, flood, fires or dust storm depending where you are located.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> So who _do_ they represent? [the Liberal Party]




Big corporate and individual donors.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> From the article:
> The assessment by the Parliamentary Budget Office, delivered two days after Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced an April budget ahead of a likely May election, shows *Commonwealth spending restraint as well as surging income tax revenue and company profits have put the government on track to net an extra $21.3 billion by 2021*.
> 
> So in reality it isn't a windfall, it is spending restrain and increased business activity, which the Government should probably take some credit for.
> ...




Actually it is a windfall in one sense due to increased commodity prices which the government has little control over.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...stralian-budget-optimism-20171217-h061xo.html


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I have pointed out on numerous occassions where Rumpy has been aligned with Abbott's beliefs, which is hard to believe because you can't get more anti Abbott than Rumpy.




It will be a sad day when we don't agree with someone sometime.

I agree with TA on things like reduction in immigration , law and order (to a point), but otherwise he's just another class warrior whose policies would be disastrous imo.


----------



## PZ99 (30 November 2018)

The surpluses are coming from higher than expected revenues but that doesn't mitigate the fruits of pro growth policies handed down by the Turnbull Govt as opposed to the austere position of the Abbott Liberal Govt in 2014 which was a spectacular failure.

That's why it became the Abbott Labor Govt in 2015  - much of the austerity values were dropped in their 2015 "Labor" budget which was all growth. Of course, Turnbull does "Labor" better than Abbott (and even the ALP themselves) so the handover was inevitable.

In my view, if they'd stayed with Turnbull they would've won the next election and then handed down a few years of surpluses and lowered debt and lowered taxation as well.

That's all gone down the swanny thanks to the destructive right. White collar terrorism at its best.


----------



## Humid (30 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I just went to the SMH, to find a current article, to try and explain.
> 
> The Headline is : Parties urged not to squander 21 billion dollar* windfall*.
> 
> ...




as the country heads towards a surplus for the first time since the Global Financial Crisis thanks to a $21 billion windfall.

Geez it’s in the first paragraph 
Looking at the numbers perhaps


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2018)

There wasn't a hope in Hades of Turnbull winning the election @PZ99


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2018)

wayneL said:


> There wasn't a hope in Hades of Turnbull winning the election @PZ99




There is even less hope now..


----------



## Humid (30 November 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> We're going to disagree about something sometime.
> 
> My _perception_ of Abbott though, and I'll readily acknowledge it does come via the media since I've only met him once, is of allowing his personal religious beliefs to interfere with politics. That may be wrong but it is certainly my perception.
> 
> ...




I think I would be happier to be associated with the unions than the banks if royal commissions are anything to go by.....


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> We're going to disagree about something sometime.
> 
> My _perception_ of Abbott though, and I'll readily acknowledge it does come via the media since I've only met him once, is of allowing his personal religious beliefs to interfere with politics. That may be wrong but it is certainly my perception.
> 
> ...



Good points there. 

I think there is an appetite for a moderate conservative government in Oz,  certainly in circles I mix in,  there is a big appetite for it. 

The problem I see with the center right and right in general (Libs are no longer truly on the right) is that there is always a deal breaker. 

Bernardis Conservatives for example. Most of their platform is very appealing to middle Australia,  but the overt religious element and anti abortion stance is a huuuuge deal breaker. 

With PHON,  its Paulines temperament

With Lib Dems is the gun policy etc.


----------



## CBerg (30 November 2018)

wayneL said:


> There wasn't a hope in Hades of Turnbull winning the election @PZ99



He was in the wrong party at the wrong time.
I think he'd crush Shorten if he had the party in line behind him but sadly not the case.


----------



## PZ99 (30 November 2018)

wayneL said:


> There wasn't a hope in Hades of Turnbull winning the election @PZ99



Last Newspoll for Turnbull was 49/51 2PP.

Howard, Keating won elections from further back than that.

Anything closer than 47/53 is competitive for any sitting Govt.


----------



## basilio (9 December 2018)

An Ode to Parliament.


----------



## basilio (23 December 2018)

The Nationals are crumbling around Australia. Why this is happening and the new options for rural voters makes fascinating reading. The next election could see profound changes in who represents rural Australia.

 
* Nationals face their biggest threat yet after an annus horribilis *

Traditional party of the bush wracked by personal scandals, leadership instability and a raft of new competitors on their turf
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-biggest-threat-yet-after-an-annus-horribilis


----------



## basilio (23 December 2018)

And just to press the point about challenge facing the Nationals (and obviously the Coalition) check this out.

*Sigh. Now the voters of Australia are forced to add moral disgust to our political burden*
Jacqueline Maley23 December 2018 — 12:05am

Send via Email
The Country Women’s Association, better known for bake sales, crochet and quiet charity than loud displays of feminism, is as fed up as the rest of us. This week its president Tanya Cameron said most of her organisation’s members were “very disappointed” with our politicians.

“As president of a long-standing organisation that has maintained its credibility because of its conservative approach, and ethical and moral standards, we are quite appalled at some of the behaviour within politics,” she said.

Video Player is loading.
Current Time 0:00
/
Duration 1:51














1:51

*Andrew Broad: The scandal that claimed an MP*
Playing...
The married family-values frontbencher fell on his sword after becoming embroiled in the 'sugar baby' scandal.

“The misogynistic attitude needs to stop and it needs to stop very quickly, it needs to be changed...a lot of our members are questioning how they will go to the polls.”

If there is a better explanation of why the government should be very afraid of credible centre-right independents taking rural seats, I am yet to see it.

When you’ve lost the CWA, you’ve lost the country, and this must especially be true for a conservative government, full of politicians whose Facebook pages are replete with posed pictures at lamington drives and school fetes, and all the other CWA events that provide the perfect backdrop for their self-promotion.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/po...-to-our-political-burden-20181221-p50npj.html


----------



## SirRumpole (23 December 2018)

The CWA party next ?

Imagine the limitless amounts of scones being baked for fundraisers.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2021)

basilio said:


> The Guardian did a good summary of the last two days in the Senate.
> * Why parliament still tolerates thuggery not acceptable in broader society *
> Katharine Murphy
> LNP Senator Barry O’Sullivan blew the lid off with a comment he made about the Greens’ Sarah Hanson-Young
> ...



Thuggery takes many styles and many parties.lol








						North Queensland MP KO'd on night out fined and banned from nightclub district
					

Mundingburra MP Les Walker, who was knocked unconscious at Townsville's Mad Cow nightclub and treated in hospital, is fined and banned from the city's nightclub strip.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (10 September 2021)

Christina Keneally by all reports seems to have become the chosen one to replace Chris Hayes in the western Sydney seat of Fowler.
Keneally, who lives in the very upmarket Sydney Northern beaches is being parachuted into the seat from the senate despite not living there.
She will of course shift to Western Sydney.
 It was feared that Keneally would not win the difficult third senate seat in NSW.
Keneally will thus have occupied a senate seat where the electors have never actually voted for her. 
She was previously parachuted into the senate by Bill Shorten when Sam Dastyari was forced into exile.
She was available for this senate spot because the voters had rejected her in Benelong, John Howards old seat, against former tennis star John Alexander. This seat was also well away from her upmarket home on Scotland Island.
Prior to that she had been elected leader of NSW opposition and promptly lost the 2011 election in a landslide.
Can anyone else see a pattern here?
The seat she is reportedly planning on contesting is a  multicultural mix of ethnicities with one of the largest groups being Vietnamese.
The locals seemingly were keen on a 30 year old lawyer (hell, not another one) the daughter of Vietnamese refugees.
Seems like the perfect background story for an ABC piece.
But alas, the local labour branch has not been involved in preselection of its candidate since 2007.
Nothing has really changed.
Politics is about power -  getting the power and keeping it.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (11 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Christina Keneally by all reports seems to have become the chosen one to replace Chris Hayes in the western Sydney seat of Fowler.
> Keneally, who lives in the very upmarket Sydney Northern beaches is being parachuted into the seat from the senate despite not living there.
> She will of course shift to Western Sydney.
> It was feared that Keneally would not win the difficult third senate seat in NSW.
> ...







Person of the people.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (12 September 2021)

Victorian Liberal Party has shown that once again that the dictum that people who ignore history are doomed to repeat its failure still rings true.
Michael O'Brien was just not cutting the mustard in opposition, so they have a coup and replace him with the same Guy who lost the last election. O'Brien, who replaced Guy after the getting pummelled at the last election in 2018 wasn't even the given the opportunity to lose as leader, didn't even last that long.
Guy is no lazarus with a triple bypass, he is just your standard lying sneaky power hungry pollie.
Libs are destined to lose next election as well, despite the  buildup up of animosity tho Genghis Dan.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (12 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Victorian Liberal Party has shown that once again that the dictum that people who ignore history are doomed to repeat its failure still rings true.
> Michael O'Brien was just not cutting the mustard in opposition, so they have a coup and replace him with the same Guy who lost the last election. O'Brien, who replaced Guy after the getting pummelled at the last election in 2018 wasn't even the given the opportunity to lose as leader, didn't even last that long.
> Guy is no lazarus with a triple bypass, he is just your standard lying sneaky power hungry pollie.
> Libs are destined to lose next election as well, despite the  buildup up of animosity tho Genghis Dan.
> Mick



As diabolically bad Labor/Greens are, the Libs/Nats are even worse.... in every state.

Neither deserve to be anywhere near government at all.

"It's Time" to vote for someone else


----------



## mullokintyre (1 October 2021)

Glad has fallen on her sword and resigned after ICAc said they were investigating her.
Investigating does not mean guilt, but unlike the days of Neville Wran, you can't just stand aside.

She did the right thing and resigned, the opposition and MSM would have eventually hounded her out.

However, as usual, the parasites are fighting over the spoils as they dodge and weve trying to take her place.
From Todays OZ


> “Over the coming days I will be talking to my family and colleagues about how I can best serve the people of NSW to continue to achieve these aims.
> 
> Mr Stokes and Mr Ayres are both moderates as well, and could reportedly benefit from the decision by a centre-right alliance, led by Police Minister David Elliott, to withdraw support from Mr Perrottet.






> In return, Mr Elliott could be in the running for deputy party leader, a position that will be voted on at the same party room meeting.
> 
> If MPs can agree in advance on who should take either of the top positions, no vote will be needed.



So parasite no 2 withdraws support from parasite no 1 and favours parasites 2 and 3 so that parasite no1 then gets the deputy keadership position.
No mention of whats good for the party, the parliament, or heaven forbid the people of NSW.
Mick


----------



## Humid (1 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Glad has fallen on her sword and resigned after ICAc said they were investigating her.
> Investigating does not mean guilt, but unlike the days of Neville Wran, you can't just stand aside.
> 
> She did the right thing and resigned, the opposition and MSM would have eventually hounded her out.
> ...



Dont mean she aint guilty either Mick.....run it through the pub test......oh thats right you cant go to the pub


----------



## mullokintyre (1 October 2021)

Humid said:


> Dont mean she aint guilty either Mick.....run it through the pub test......oh thats right you cant go to the pub



That was cruel!
I have never been a fan of ICACS. 
There is no place in society for secret star chambers. 
The various versions of ICAC  have killed three NSW premiers , one of whom was found not guilty at the end of it , the other was forced to resign, not because he did something corrupt, but because someone gifted him a bottle of grange (a highly overated  wine in my opinion).
Neville Wran was fingered by ICAC but was eventually exonerated.
The stupid thing is that so much of the evidence extracted by ICAC ends up being inadmissible in a law court, which is where everyone gets tried in the end.
ICACS in their various forms are mainly to stroke the egos of vain QC's.
Mick


----------



## Humid (1 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> That was cruel!
> I have never been a fan of ICACS.
> There is no place in society for secret star chambers.
> The various versions of ICAC  have killed three NSW premiers , one of whom was found not guilty at the end of it , the other was forced to resign, not because he did something corrupt, but because someone gifted him a bottle of grange (a highly overated  wine in my opinion).
> ...



Ffs if you think he was gone for the grange i would think naive springs to mind


----------



## Humid (1 October 2021)

Humid said:


> Ffs if you think he was gone for the grange i would think naive springs to mind



By the way where is Barry these days


----------



## Humid (1 October 2021)

Ill do your homework for you









						Barry O'Farrell - Michael West
					

Former Premier for NSW from 2011 to 2014, Barry O'Farrell became CEO of Racing Australia in December 2016, later resigning in 2019. During his years in parliament he held close ties to influential liquor and gambling lobbyists, most notably The Australian Hotels Association (AHA) and ClubsNSW...




					www.michaelwest.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (1 October 2021)

I am from Victoria, so the cesspool of NSW politics has somewhat less  interest for me than the cesspool of Victorian politics.
And if you read the reports of the time, he was forced to resign after denying he had received a bottle of grange for his birthday from a lobbyist, then the lobbyist showed ICAC a piece of paper where BOF thanked said lobbyist for the wine.
Whether he was too close to the hotel industry is not something I am in a position to comment on.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (2 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> That was cruel!
> I have never been a fan of ICACS.
> There is no place in society for secret star chambers.
> The various versions of ICAC  have killed three NSW premiers , one of whom was found not guilty at the end of it , the other was forced to resign, not because he did something corrupt, but because someone gifted him a bottle of grange (a highly overated  wine in my opinion).
> ...




It also put an end to the careers of 2 pretty corrupt individuals, Obeid and MacDonald so it was worth it to get rid of them.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 October 2021)

> It also put an end to the careers of 2 pretty corrupt individuals, Obeid and MacDonald so it was worth it to get rid of them.



So the ends justify the means?
Would not the careers of Obeid and Macdonald  been ended without the ICAC?
THE DPP may well have charged them both without the ICAC star chambers.
Oral and Physical evidence taken at ICAC hearings are sometimes not allowed to be used in a court of law simply because of the way they are gathered.
Unlike bodies such as ICAC, evidence gathered due to coercion, lack of search warrants etc are inadmissible.
There is no reason why Police cannot  ask courts for listening warrants on comms devices, get a judge approved search warrant, conduct recorded interviews with a lawyer present etc.
The liberties we have are too important to be given away for convenience.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (2 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> There is no reason why Police cannot ask courts for listening warrants on comms devices, get a judge approved search warrant, conduct recorded interviews with a lawyer present etc.




Police could be reluctant to investigate their political bosses, it could be a career ending move , or they may be in on it themselves.

The I in ICAC means Independent, the police are not necessarily that.


----------



## Knobby22 (2 October 2021)

I do feel a bit sorry for Gladys though. 
Dodgy boyfriend  realluy. I think she is pretty honest. Unfortunately, easy to slightly twist a grant.


----------



## Humid (2 October 2021)

Congrats on the Libs for normalizing corruption.....poor ol Glad hasnt got a blind trust even....


----------



## SirRumpole (2 October 2021)




----------



## IFocus (3 October 2021)

Humid said:


> Congrats on the Libs for normalizing corruption.....poor ol Glad hasnt got a blind trust even....





Wont be a problem in the future the Liberals will defund ICAC next budget, meanwhile wonder why the current federal government wont come good on their promise to install a federal ICAC.... seems no trust there hmmm


----------



## Humid (3 October 2021)

I wonder how true this is


----------



## moXJO (3 October 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 130989
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought she lost it already. I'm sure there was an article


----------



## SirRumpole (4 October 2021)

Just what we need, another Conservative Catholic. Another Tony Abbott perhaps ?









						Meet Dom Perrottet — the conservative Catholic and father-of-six about to take NSW's top job
					

A man with a big family and strong ideals around freedom — NSW's next Premier once called for a "conservative spring" and credits his religious beliefs as having a fundamental influence on his work in politics.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (4 October 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 130989
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The argument will be in the interpretation of the  wording.
Is it saying that she loses the pension if found guilty, but only if she was still in office when charged,  or does it say she loses the pension  if charged  and found guilty while still in office.
If its the former, she will lose her pension if found guilty.
If its the latter,  she will not because she will have left office before a verdict is returned.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (4 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Just what we need, another Conservative Catholic. Another Tony Abbott perhaps ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cathlophobia?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Cathlophobia?




Quite possibly.


----------



## IFocus (4 October 2021)

Worth a read IMHO

NSW must do better than Dominic Perrottet as premier​
Too young? Too narrow in life experience and perspective? Yes, to those. But most crucially, if this growing representation of highly conservative Christians in positions of great power is to be contained in Australia, NSW needs to do better. Far better.

Yet, within a day, it is possible that NSW, self-described as the most progressive state in the federation, may have, in Dominic Perrottet, a premier not only living under a cloud for mismanagement of the state’s workers’ compensation scheme, iCare, but who is also a highly conservative Catholic with views that represent the most extreme end of a rigidly male-dominated institutional church.









						NSW must do better than Dominic Perrottet as premier
					

The religious beliefs of our leaders are significant when they have the power to exercise choices that directly affect our collective wellbeing.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2021)

And another one from the SMH.








						Labor’s year-long plan to take on a Premier Perrottet
					

Ever since Gladys Berejiklian first appeared in the grip of the corruption watchdog, the opposition has been preparing for the rise of Dominic Perrottet.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (4 October 2021)

So being a Catholic conservative  should debar one from Public office??
Would there be a problem if the person was a Muslim conservative?
Or maybe an agnostic conservative?
All those people decrying the discrimination against women, or Aboriginal people, or people with disability etc etc are quite happy for the negativity around a white a male catholic conservative to be trotted out as the party line.
Hypocrisy rears its ugly head again.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (4 October 2021)

How long before Cathilophobia becomes a thing?


----------



## moXJO (4 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> Worth a read IMHO
> 
> NSW must do better than Dominic Perrottet as premier​
> Too young? Too narrow in life experience and perspective? Yes, to those. But most crucially, if this growing representation of highly conservative Christians in positions of great power is to be contained in Australia, NSW needs to do better. Far better.
> ...



Wrong choice for nsw


----------



## mullokintyre (4 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> Wrong choice for nsw



Well, at some time in the future the only people that count, the voters of NSW, will be able to pass judgement.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (4 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, at some time in the future the only people that count, the voters of NSW, will be able to pass judgement.
> Mick



I thought Barry O and Bjiggles were pretty good till they got caught out. I don't want a religious conservative in charge.
I've had a few interactions with these sorts and imo not made for a lead position


----------



## wayneL (4 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, at some time in the future the only people that count, the voters of NSW, will be able to pass judgement.
> Mick



However, singularly unqualified to do so.


----------



## mullokintyre (4 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> I thought Barry O and Bjiggles were pretty good till they got caught out. I don't want a religious conservative in charge.
> I've had a few interactions with these sorts and imo not made for a lead position



Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of identity politics, an unhealthy trend that has developed in Western Societies.
People seem to be pigeonholed by the identity they seek, or are given.
Instead of asking what are your policies, what are your values, where do you see this city, state, country or region heading in the future, people are more concerned about what group or groups they identify with, or labelled to identify with.
Now people are dismissed because of a label stuck on to them, not because someone has put down a cogent argument, and reasoned why the position is true or false.
Its just so much easier to stick a label on them and dismiss them  without having to prosecute their case.
And its not confined to one  side of politics.
People from the left  are labelled as marxists, fascists, communists, Unicorns, fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (5 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of identity politics, an unhealthy trend that has developed in Western Societies.
> People seem to be pigeonholed by the identity they seek, or are given.
> Instead of asking what are your policies, what are your values, where do you see this city, state, country or region heading in the future, people are more concerned about what group or groups they identify with, or labelled to identify with.
> Now people are dismissed because of a label stuck on to them, not because someone has put down a cogent argument, and reasoned why the position is true or false.
> ...



I'm catholic, went to a catholic school, mingled with catholic judges and lawyers in nsw that tend to enter politics. You can definitely pigeon-hole those running on a "catholic" platform.


----------



## wayneL (5 October 2021)

Just give me a true feckin liberal.

Not Liberal or Labor... and FFS no Greens... a "liberal".


----------



## mullokintyre (5 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Just give me a true feckin liberal.
> 
> Not Liberal or Labor... and FFS no Greens... a "liberal".



Not too many small l liberals left in Politics.
All the rest are interventionist who want to make the world "better" by introducing ever more increasing laws and regulations.
A pox on them all.
Mick


----------



## basilio (5 October 2021)

*        Gladys To Avoid ICAC By Joining Federal Politics            * 







Former NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian says she wants to take a break from the high-pressure and constant scrutiny of state politics by running for a seat in the Federal Coalition Government.

In an emotional speech today, Ms Berejiklian said it was time to take a step back and do something less demanding. “After four and a half years in the top job, I need to give myself a rest. I need a break from the expectations, the daily press conferences, the scrutiny and the anti-corruption hearings. In short, I need to spend some time on the Liberal Party front bench in Canberra”.                                                                                                             
She said being held accountable to the electorate day-in-day-out took its toll. “It’s gruelling. As a member of the Morrison government, that’s one less thing I’ll have to worry about. Perhaps I could become Health Minister or Attorney General – something where you don’t need to be answerable to the people for every little thing. Or every big thing”.

The former Premier said the prospect of being held accountable for corruption also weighed heavily on her. “Which is why I need a spell as a federal Minister, just for a bit of me time”.









						Gladys To Avoid ICAC By Joining Federal Politics
					

"I need a break from all this accountability"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> Wrong choice for nsw




We'll obviously have to see how he goes, but that type of person usually favours the rich and the old mates network (the Catholic church) rather than the broader society.

However I could be wrong, but Tony Abbott was the last Conservative Christian leader we had and he did a great job right ?


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2021)

basilio said:


> *        Gladys To Avoid ICAC By Joining Federal Politics            *
> 
> 
> View attachment 131089
> ...




I was taking you seriously for a while there Bas.


----------



## wayneL (5 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I was taking you seriously for a while their Bas.



Like I said elsewhere, it is now impossible to differentiate between satire/parody and real life


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2021)

Boy another Premier in the cross hairs.








						IBAC scrutiny on Andrews over firefighters’ union deal
					

Victoria’s anti-corruption body has been examining the conduct of the Premier and a senior public servant over their role in controversial deals that benefited the firefighters’ union.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## basilio (6 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I was taking you seriously for a while there Bas.



You gotta have some fun, Can't take everything too seriously.


----------



## mullokintyre (6 October 2021)

And is a continuum of past behaviour, NSW Nationals have elected a complete Tool(e) as their leader.
ABC News


> Paul Toole has been voted in to replace John Barilaro as the NSW Nationals leader and state's Deputy Premier.
> 
> The Member for Bathurst and Minister for Regional Transport and Roads has served as the National's Deputy leader for three years.
> 
> ...




Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

Sometimes I just shakes me head at some of the strange things that happen in Politics.
The new NSW premier has dumped the head of the prime Ministers dept before he actually got to start.
Jim Betts has been replaced by Michael Coutts-Trotter.
I don't mind the fact that he was once convicted  and served three years of a nine year sentence for selling heroin at the tender age of 19.
I mean we all make mistakes.
What i find even stranger is that as head of the premiers dept , the bloke who is going to be privvy to all sorts of secret things concerning the coalition in NSW,  is married to Tanya Plibersek, a Federal Labour frontbencher.
So there will be no Pillow talk??
Ye right.
What the hell are they thinking??
Mick


----------



## basilio (8 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I don't mind the fact that he was once convicted and served three years of a nine year sentence for selling heroin at the tender age of 19.
> I mean we all make mistakes.




Indeed. And* no-one *is unaware of Michael Coutts-Trotter history.  But it equally clear that he is an exceptionally capable administrator who has handled numerous senior positions very capably.









						Dark past of NSW Premier’s right hand man
					

A teenage heroin addict who went to jail for nearly three years in some of the nation’s toughest prisons before marrying fedeeral Labor frontbencher Tanya Plibersek has been appointed to the top job of running NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet’s department.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (8 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Indeed. And* no-one *is unaware of Michael Coutts-Trotter history.  But it equally clear that he is an exceptionally capable administrator who has handled numerous senior positions very capably.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the no-one might be a bit strong.
Australia consists of a number of states, and  I suspect that like me, a lot of folks who do not live in Sydney will have never heard of him, much less know his history.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2021)

Maybe you should try a religious socialist, like W.A did @moXJO, much better than a religious conservative. 🤣
I must admit, religion isn't my bag and I think it should be kept at arms length from politics, but as with most strongly opinionated people, they tend to be attracted to positions of power and control.









						WA Inc - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## mullokintyre (12 October 2021)

So first we had  the Vic liberals ousting their leader without ever giving him the chance to face the electors, and replacing him with the same bloke who  led them to a devastating loss at the last election.
Then we had our Glad  caught up in the no bonking rules of parliament in NSW.
Which triggered  resignations in the state coalition which ultimately led to a Tool being installed in the NSW nationals  foghorn position.
Having lost one  minister due to the quarantine fiasco last year, now here in Victoria we have just had our fourth  member resign after the incumbent labour party had one of its own  spill the beans on branch stacking.
I am not sure why there is such a fuss about branch stacking, its not a federal or state offence, its being going on for years, and all the major parties do it.
Adem Somyurek, the sleazy little creep who started all this kerfuffle over branch stacking  posted two tweets yesterday. 
The first about it being coincidental that he and Daniel Andrews also both started in parliament in 2011.
The obvious inference being that Genghis Dan would be leaving parliament with Adem at he next election.
Big call.
The second being that people such as Fed MP Richard Marles should be implicated as well.
The whistleblower is a Federal labour MP, so this little problem  has now spread to federal ranks.
Internal feuds are never a good look for Political parties. 
It just reinforces the views that so many have that its an ego driven power scramble.
Whats a bet the minor parties and independents have a big impact on the upcoming elections, both state and federal?
Could Pauline Hanson, despite her being cancelled by the sisterhood, start to rival Nellie Melba in comebacks?
We live in exciting times!
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Indeed. And* no-one *is unaware of Michael Coutts-Trotter history.  But it equally clear that he is an exceptionally capable administrator who has handled numerous senior positions very capably.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting when you consider what you say  in context, this guy was sent to jail for selling hard drugs as a teenager, but that is o.k because he is an exceptional administrator, Porter was accused of a crime as a teenager and you wanted him strung up from the tree on the outskirts of town, without due process.
This is why it is difficult to debate with those who hold extreme views, which are based on emotional factors, rather than actual facts.
But having said that, it is entertaining, you could replace Michael Coutts-Trotter's name above with Christian Porters and there would be right wing extremists that would agree whole heartedly with the same statement. 
Yet there would be a left wing group, that would be screaming for you to be banned for writing the quote.
But it just shows how biases drive perceptions, thankfully most people fall in the centre of the bell shaped curve.


----------



## basilio (12 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting when you consider what you say in context, this guy was sent to jail for selling hard drugs as a teenager, but that is o.k because he is an exceptional administrator, Porter was accused of a crime as a teenager and you wanted him strung up from the tree on the outskirts of town, without due process.




Have to disagree with you on so many points SP

Michael Coutts-Trotter went to jail as 19 year for selling hard drugs. On release and over his subsequent  life he proved himself to be exceptionally capable and I assume a principled person.  He never hid his original crime.  In that context viewing him as a 56 year person  one sees what he has achieved and can offer  since he came out of jail rather than the behaviour as a 19 year old

Christian Porter on the other hand ?  He was accused of a particularly nasty rape which allegedly occurred as a 17 year old on a young woman he had been friends with.   Currently there is insufficient legal evidence to convict him of rape in a criminal trial.  There may still be a private prosecution. The allegations were conveyed across a number of people *at the time  *and their recollections still stand and could be tested in an inquiry.

An  ABC 4 Corners investigation also found evidence  a number of current behaviours with women that didn't reflect well on his character.

The issue with Christian Porter was his character and suitability as Attorney General of Australia and potentially a Prime Minister.  The allegations made against were about his fitness for these positions. Finding him legally culpable was always a long shot and particularly so when the NSW police did not take Katherine Thorntons formal statement

Of course Mr Porter has completely  denied any sexual activity with Katherine Thornton. So we now have to  blindly trust his integrity as both a person and a politician.   I think his electorate back in WA will have the last say on this issue.


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Have to disagree with you on so many points SP
> 
> Michael Coutts-Trotter went to jail as 19 year for selling hard drugs. On release and over his subsequent  life he proved himself to be exceptionally capable and I assume a principled person.  He never hid his original crime.  In that context viewing him as a 56 year person  one sees what he has achieved and can offer  since he came out of jail rather than the behaviour as a 19 year old
> 
> ...



My case rests. 🤣


----------



## basilio (12 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> My case rests. 🤣




No probs.  If you think Christian Porter is a right on guy vote for him. It's  a free world. After all 70 million people in the US now believe Trump was robbed in the last election and that's going down well.  Plenty of examples of leaders who have managed to avoid jail time for anything and everything. No reason why our potential leaders shouldn't get a free pass as well is there ?


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2021)

basilio said:


> No probs.  If you think Christian Porter is a right on guy vote for him. It's  a free world. After all 70 million people in the US now believe Trump was robbed in the last election and that's going down well.  Plenty of examples of leaders who have managed to avoid jail time for anything and everything. No reason why our potential leaders shouldn't get a free pass as well is there ?



It wasn't about Christian Porter, it was about  how people's biases, influences their decision making.
I wouldn't vote for either of the people, they obviously both have a different moral compass to me.
One has actually sold hard drugs which ruins heaps of lives, the other avoided going to court to clear up an issue, because there is obviously other issues he doesn't want aired.
By your remarks, you find one acceptable, because they have shown they now of good character because they have held responsible jobs and what happened was when they were 19 and the crime was of a nature you find acceptable.
The other isn't acceptable, because he was accused of an incident when he was 17 and the nature of the accusation wasn't acceptable to you.
Then you throw Trump into the mix, like I've said on a number of occasions over the years, "I love your passion".


----------



## SirRumpole (12 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting when you consider what you say  in context, this guy was sent to jail for selling hard drugs as a teenager, but that is o.k because he is an exceptional administrator, Porter was accused of a crime as a teenager and you wanted him strung up from the tree on the outskirts of town, without due process.
> This is why it is difficult to debate with those who hold extreme views, which are based on emotional factors, rather than actual facts.
> But having said that, it is entertaining, you could replace Michael Coutts-Trotter's name above with Christian Porters and there would be right wing extremists that would agree whole heartedly with the same statement.
> Yet there would be a left wing group, that would be screaming for you to be banned for writing the quote.
> But it just shows how biases drive perceptions, thankfully most people fall in the centre of the bell shaped curve.




The difference is pretty obvious. Couttes-Troutter was punished for his crime, Porter (if he is guilty) never was and never will be.


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The difference is pretty obvious. Couttes-Troutter was punished for his crime, Porter (if he is guilty) never was and never will be.



Like I said I wouldn't vote for either, one is a convicted criminal, the other is an alleged criminal, I find it hard to see why either should have my vote.
As for your description Rumpy, what should Porter's punishment be, jail for 8 years just in case he was guilty?
I don't follow the reasoning, what should there be, mandatory punishment, for all allegations?
It certainly would solve the court system issues.


----------



## basilio (12 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The other isn't acceptable, because he was accused of an incident when he was 17 and the nature of the accusation wasn't acceptable to you.
> Then you throw Trump into the mix, like I've said on a number of occasions over the years, "I love your passion".




I suggest you miss the points SP.

I didn't think the crime that Michael Cotters committed was "acceptable".  It was well and truly wrong.  He was punished and completed his sentence.

Unlike many other people who have a serious criminal conviction he  managed to prove he could change  and rehabilitate . Well done

*Christian Porter has never been convicted of a crime.  *He also denies anything untoward has ever happened. My issue is that I don't believe him after  having read all the material that was released.  In top of that his current behaviours as ex AG say he is still a person I wouldn't want to see in such a powerful position.

I threw up Trump ? I could have thrown up a score of public figures who have abused their office and managed to avoid legal recriminations. He just happens to be the most spectacular current example of how a venal, lying, corrupt politician can gain power despite everything.


----------



## basilio (12 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As for your description Rumpy, what should Porter's punishment be, jail for 8 years just in case he was guilty?




It was always unlikely he would be convicted. The  issue was his suitablilty for the political offices he was holding.  If you had read Katherine Thorntons  story her main concern was bringing to light the character of person who was now holding the highest Legal power in Australia


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2021)

basilio said:


> I suggest you miss the points SP.
> 
> I didn't think the crime that Michael Cotters committed was "acceptable".  It was well and truly wrong.  He was punished and completed his sentence.
> 
> ...



I think you miss the point Bas,
One is an actual convicted criminal, who you say is rehabilitated and is now of good character. So should be given the benefit of the doubt.
The other is not a convicted criminal, but because you don't believe them, shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt.
That to me is contradictory, but it is only my opinion.


----------



## basilio (12 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think you miss the point Bas,
> One is an actual convicted criminal, who you say is rehabilitated and is now of good character. So should be given the benefit of the doubt.
> The other is not a convicted criminal, but because you don't believe them, shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt.
> That to me is contradictory, but it is only my opinion.




Ok let's try this perspective.

One is an actual convicted criminal who since his release from jail has rebuilt his life and demonstrated excellent skills that has resulted in continued advancement. He is now Chief of Staff of a Premiers office.  Everyone is aware of his early history but everyone is now prepared to accept that he is no longer the person he was 35 years ago. (so to speak..)

The other is not a convicted criminal. However the allegations  are very serious and go to character. The support for these allegations  from a range of sources gives them substantial credibility - but not necessarily legal proof.  There are further  observations of his recent behaviour that  also undermine his character.

This person held one the highest Legal Offices of the land. He had aspirations to be Prime Minister.  Both positions IMV require a code of conduct that goes beyond "not being a convicted criminal ".  When I started the thread regarding Christian Porter I called it "Finding the Truth vs The rule of Law".  Essentially there are thousands of big and small decisions made in our society that require employers, partners, family, voters to assess situations without waiting for a trial to decide the outcome.

In politics, in particular  historically,  politicians are required to demonstrate  character and behaviour that makes them suitable to be our represented leaders. I don't believe Christian Porter comes within a bulls roar of this test. Of course he has plenty of company and as I said earlier perhaps the 21st Century is the time that anyone can doing anything when they achieve office and simply brazen their way out.


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Ok let's try this perspective.
> 
> One is an actual convicted criminal who since his release from jail has rebuilt his life and demonstrated excellent skills that has resulted in continued advancement. He is now Chief of Staff of a Premiers office.  Everyone is aware of his early history but everyone is now prepared to accept that he is no longer the person he was 35 years ago. (so to speak..)
> 
> ...



A great expose on how you differentiate between who is suitable to be in politics and who isn't, I personally believe a persons character traits are formed at a very young age, that is why we have a legal system rather than system built on personal assessments.
In the past many systems have been built on personal assessment by peers or superiors, that is why a lot of those systems are being dismantled, or have had checks and balances put in place.
Whether someone wants to be P.M or the Queen of Sheba, it shouldn't make any difference how you apply a measurement of character, both should be tested to the same yard stick. IMO
That is why, as I explained, they both fail my character test.
Yours seems to be as malleable as play dough and as I said it appears to based on emotion, rather than any logical application of reasoning.
One is suitable because they have been to jail, the other isn't suitable because they can't be proven to have committed a crime, but if they did commit the crime it is a horrible crime.
IMO they are both horrible crimes, only one has been proven.
But I guess that's why we see some things differently, it would be boring if we all agreed.


----------



## moXJO (13 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Ok let's try this perspective.
> 
> One is an actual convicted criminal who since his release from jail has rebuilt his life and demonstrated excellent skills that has resulted in continued advancement. He is now Chief of Staff of a Premiers office.  Everyone is aware of his early history but everyone is now prepared to accept that he is no longer the person he was 35 years ago. (so to speak..)
> 
> ...



I'm not a fan of Porter. But wokeavista allegations seem to be the new proof of guilt. I'll condemn a guy on hard proof.

Currently there is a band in Melbourne that used lyrics in one of their songs that the wokes decided was degrading to all women. Out of the woodwork they suddenly are copping rape allegations on social media and are being cancelled. 

It's the equivalent of lynch mobs these days. Just because you think it doesn't hold any truth of it being right. Just because these idiots use mob tactics and a perception of safety in numbers, doesn't make it true.


----------



## sptrawler (13 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm not a fan of Porter. But wokeavista allegations seem to be the new proof of guilt. I'll condemn a guy on hard proof.
> 
> Currently there is a band in Melbourne that used lyrics in one of their songs that the wokes decided was degrading to all women. Out of the woodwork they suddenly are copping rape allegations on social media and are being cancelled.
> 
> It's the equivalent of lynch mobs these days. Just because you think it doesn't hold any truth of it being right. Just because these idiots use mob tactics and a perception of safety in numbers, *doesn't make it true.*



To some it does, especially those who are very susceptible to media narrative, the trail by media wouldn't just happen on the normal media platforms, I guess it is prevalent on social media platforms also.
IMO it's funny how the mob is swayed and manipulated from issue to issue, the vaccine roll out has been a real classic. From riling the mob up about quarantine and discriminating by putting early repats on Christmas Island, to the death curse of AZ, to now everyone who doesn't want to have the vaccine is a neo nazi, right wing militia.
I just wish Monty Python was still running, imagine the fun they would have, with the pitchfork mob running around as the footsoldiers for the media barons.  
John Cleese head of the mob, having a roadside courtroom, reads out what was in the paper and suggests a road side hanging is called for.
Eric Idle says, but we aren't sure it is the right person or the information is correct, Cleese say's don't be silly you fool it's in the paper hang him.🤣 
Then again, the show would be cancelled.


----------



## sptrawler (13 October 2021)

A good article on Australia's wretched ghosts. 🤣 








						Australia's five Donald Trumps should shut up
					

When MB successfully forecast and then chronicled Australia’s great “lost decade” of the 2010s, we did not anticipate it leaving a toxic rhetorical legacy worldwide. The political carnage of the “lost decade”, in which we plodded through six PMs in seven years has, unfortunately, populated the...




					www.macrobusiness.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> A good article on Australia's wretched ghosts



One of the things that really holds us back in my view is that the parties, all of them, are beholden to former "heroes" whose ideas are now out of date.

I could go into specifics but there's really no need. All the parties have their former "heroes" either living or dead and all of those "heroes" championed ideas that are now at odds with what society sensibly needs to move forward.

We're in a world that's vastly different to that of 40 years ago but our politics to considerable extent is still stuck in the 1980's due to that legacy. The 1980's is, well, literally half a lifetime ago now, not much from back then still has any sensible relevance today.

Bearing in mind there that less than half the current population was even alive when much of that occurred. The "average" Australian was born in 1984 after all.


----------



## PZ99 (14 October 2021)

I think Tony Abbott’s “Eastern Israel” megaphone sortie in Taiwan was grossly stoopid.

However this black duck will always defend the value of free speech and that extends to wretched ghosts even if they do tend to fill their undies in the process


----------



## ghotib (14 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I think the no-one might be a bit strong.
> Australia consists of a number of states, and  I suspect that like me, a lot of folks who do not live in Sydney will have never heard of him, much less know his history.
> Mick



A lot of folks who do live in Sydney have never heard of him either, and another lot would have forgotten what they'd heard. Isn't that how it's supposed to be?  He's not a politician, he's a public servant. 

For that matter, an awful lot of folks have never heard of any politicians or don't remember what they've heard, but that's another story.


----------



## basilio (16 October 2021)

On Point.


----------



## sptrawler (16 October 2021)

I'm very much looking forward to the next term of Government, labor will have the opportunity to change the current direction, which is very slow and boring IMO.
Way too much emphasis is being placed on a safety first approach, what is needed is a huge hit of new ideas and exciting risk taking, we have had 10 years of conservative politics, I for one think it is time for a change.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said I wouldn't vote for either, one is a convicted criminal, the other is an alleged criminal, I find it hard to see why either should have my vote.
> As for your description Rumpy, what should Porter's punishment be, jail for 8 years just in case he was guilty?
> I don't follow the reasoning, what should there be, mandatory punishment, for all allegations?
> It certainly would solve the court system issues.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2021)

I don't like guilt by allegations either, the point is that Porter is being protected by hi s mates who refuse to hold an inquiry into the allegations. Although the main accuser is dead she reportedly told others what happened who are prepared to give evidence.

Porter will never go to jail for this,the question is whether he is fit to be the highest law officer in the  country, or even the Prime Minister.


----------



## sptrawler (17 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't like guilt by allegations either, the point is that Porter is being protected by hi s mates who refuse to hold an inquiry into the allegations. Although the main accuser is dead she reportedly told others what happened who are prepared to give evidence.



The problem with that is, it is hearsay, a person could quite easily say to the police and friends you raped them 30 years ago, then go off and suicide, it doesn't prove you did, it proves the person obviuosly didn't like you that's for sure.
The other thing is, as time goes by what people think happened changes, as some memories are reinforced and others fade.
I know from my early life living in an extremely violent household, some of the recollections of my father, are probably not exactly right, some incidents would have been worse than I remember, some would have been less violent than I remember and some possibly I made up or embellished in my hatred. After all these years I couldn't, in all honesty, swear to all my recollections.
I'm not saying the same applies to the lady in question, but it has to be tested, that's the law.  





SirRumpole said:


> Porter will never go to jail for this,the question is whether he is fit to be the highest law officer in the  country, or even the Prime Minister.



Porter will never go to jail for it, which is how the law works, whether his political and private life survives it, is another thing completely, I don't think it will.
Most people will think, where there is smoke there is fire, so my guess is Porters career will suffer.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 October 2021)

And now former NSW Labour leader Jodi Mackay has joined the long list of retirees.
They are going down like flies.
With the strange goings on in Sth Australia over their newly minted speaker, a recent defector from  the Liberal party, these are truly interesting times.
I wonder if the new speaker in SA looked at what happened to the last person who  was conned by labour and independants into running for the speaker in Tasmania.
She ran as an independent in the next election and was turfed out.

Mick


----------



## basilio (17 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't like guilt by allegations either, the point is that Porter is being protected by hi s mates who refuse to hold an inquiry into the allegations. Although the main accuser is dead she reportedly told others what happened who are prepared to give evidence.
> 
> Porter will never go to jail for this,the question is whether he is fit to be the highest law officer in the  country, or even the Prime Minister.




Exactly. I believe I made this point repeatedly.


----------



## basilio (17 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with that is, it is hearsay, a person could quite easily say to the police and friends you raped them 30 years ago, then go off and suicide, it doesn't prove you did, it proves the person obviuosly didn't like you that's for sure.
> The other thing is, as time goes by what people think happened changes, as some memories are reinforced and others fade.
> I know from my early life living in an extremely violent household, some of the recollections of my father, are probably not exactly right, some incidents would have been worse than I remember, some would have been less violent than I remember and some possibly I made up or embellished in my hatred. After all these years I couldn't, in all honesty, swear to all my recollections.
> I'm not saying the same applies to the lady in question, but it has to be tested, that's the law.




I agree that memories change and are quite fallible. And if this issue was only brought up 30 years later -  yeah very fair comment.
*The facts however are that Katherine Thornton raised the rape issue with a number of friends in  the immediate years after the alleged assault. *

Not only did she write about it in her diaries at the time but  she attempted to resolve, in some way. what happened through discussions with friends and even Christian Porter.  If you go through the thread I started in this issue these people have already said they can testify as to what they were told back in the early 90's.

Thinking about your experience SP.  Yep if you lived in a violent household with many things happening it would make sense that the many events would blur and hopefully somewhat fade away.  That is our protective mechanism.

In the Katherine Thornton case we have a young girl from a highly educated upper middle class background *allegedly experiencing a traumatic rape at the hands of a young guy from the same background.* When one reads the response from Jo Dyer who was her friend at the time it is very easy to feel the horror and shame of such a thing.


----------



## sptrawler (17 October 2021)

basilio said:


> I agree that memories change and are quite fallible. And if this issue was only brought up 30 years later -  yeah very fair comment.
> *The facts however are that Katherine Thornton raised the rape issue with a number of friends in  the immediate years after the alleged assault. *
> 
> Not only did she write about it in her diaries at the time but  she attempted to resolve, in some way. what happened through discussions with friends and even Christian Porter.  If you go through the thread I started in this issue these people have already said they can testify as to what they were told back in the early 90's.
> ...



I don't disagree with you, it is a shame the girl didn't come forward 30 years ago or that one of her friends didn't, unfortunately times were different then. Women were mistreated badly and I personally witnessed it first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that if one party says it happened and the other party says it didn't, it has to go through due process.
Otherwise society fails.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> but that doesn't change the fact that if one party says it happened and the other party says it didn't, it has to go through due process.




Yes, well the due process (an enquiry) is being blocked, the only process left is the voter's judgement.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2021)

Meanwhile, back in NSW the new Premier has called for a massive increase in immigration to cover a 'shortage of labour'.

That's terrible news for local workers who have suffered wage stagnation and the gig economy for 10 years due to an oversupply of labour. The simple equation is that if you increase the supply of something you reduce it's price.

Of course there is a shortage of labour now, because most of the country has been in lockdown for a year, but the workers who lost their jobs when their employers went broke haven't died (mostly) or gone to Mars , they are still here and need jobs and should be looked after first imho.

Perrotett has shown himself to be a slave of the employers who only want CHEAP labour, and the influx of many more people would place great demands on services like transport, schools and hospitals.

Let the unemployment rate get down to about 3.5 % before we import more people.









						Perrottet backs ‘big NSW’ as immigration debate heats up
					

‘We’re going to have a real discussion [about] catching up some of those numbers that we’ve lost during this pandemic,’ said NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet.




					www.afr.com


----------



## sptrawler (17 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, well the due process (an enquiry) is being blocked, the only process left is the voter's judgement.



From my understanding, if you remove bias and emotion from the discussion, there was an investigation by the police, there was an investigation by the media, it was found that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute.
So do you keep having investigations until you hopefully find some evidence, how many investigations do you have, before you say well it boils back to who you believe, especially when you can't question one party.
As you say, it will be the voters who cast judgement.


----------



## basilio (17 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> there was an investigation by the police,



No there wasn't.  The file was closed with no investigation when Katherine Thornton died. The police decided that without a signed statement from Katherine there was nothing they could do.

The media investigation? There certainly was and that centered the various documents and promised affadavits of people who Katherine had spoken to in the years after the alleged event.  These could only be properly assessed with a formal investigation ie coronial inquiry or independent  officer. Neither has happened to date.


sptrawler said:


> I don't disagree with you, it is a shame the girl didn't come forward 30 years ago or that one of her friends didn't, unfortunately times were different then. Women were mistreated badly and I personally witnessed it first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that if one party says it happened and the other party says it didn't, it has to go through due process.
> Otherwise society fails.




The girl was not going to come forward and try and press charges.  For all the reasons you mention that was always going to be too difficult.
Her final efforts to expose what had happened were about exposing what she saw as serious character defects in a person who was now Attorney General and on his way to be PM. This has always been about the fitness of Christian Porter for high office. The prosecution boat sailed years ago.


----------



## moXJO (17 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Meanwhile, back in NSW the new Premier has called for a massive increase in immigration to cover a 'shortage of labour'.
> 
> That's terrible news for local workers who have suffered wage stagnation and the gig economy for 10 years due to an oversupply of labour. The simple equation is that if you increase the supply of something you reduce it's price.
> 
> ...



I'm not a fan of this idiot so far. BO and Bjiggles were pretty good for the state. Prot isn't proving himself to be capable.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm not a fan of this idiot so far. BO and Bjiggles were pretty good for the state. Prot isn't proving himself to be capable.




He's too far Right.

Keeps banging on about business to the exclusion of everything else.


----------



## IFocus (17 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm not a fan of this idiot so far. BO and Bjiggles were pretty good for the state. Prot isn't proving himself to be capable.





He has that grinning idiot look about him which just doesn't work for me.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> He has that grinning idiot look about him which just doesn't work for me.




a la Tony Abbott ?


----------



## moXJO (17 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> He has that grinning idiot look about him which just doesn't work for me.



I wish it was just skin deep...

We now seem to have an authoritarian in every state. Noticed WA premier decided to turn twitter comments off in his twitter after his "biker" stomping moment.
People seem to be eating this sht up though. Rule us harder!


----------



## moXJO (17 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> He's too far Right.
> 
> Keeps banging on about business to the exclusion of everything else.



One of the boys.


----------



## IFocus (18 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> I wish it was just skin deep...
> 
> We now seem to have an authoritarian in every state. Noticed WA premier decided to turn twitter comments off in his twitter after his "biker" stomping moment.
> People seem to be eating this sht up though. Rule us harder!





McGowan is fine I'm getting a second tattoo on the other arm...


----------



## moXJO (18 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> McGowan is fine I'm getting a second tattoo on the other arm...



While money is pouring in you tend to not notice.


----------



## basilio (18 October 2021)

*  Perrottet Confirms Scott Morrison Will Represent Australia At COP26 Climate Talks     * 









Scott Morrison – a mid-level bureaucrat from the south Sydney electorate of Cook – was told this week that he will be attending the Glasgow climate talks on Australia’s behalf, after a decision by new leader Dominic Perrottet.

Mr Perrottet, who also announced changes to Australia’s border policies this week, said Mr Morrison was chosen because he had a clear diary next month. He said he was awaiting for final approval from the National Party before signing off on the appointment.                                                                                                        
Critics say the decision to send a junior member of government shows Australia isn’t taking the issue of climate change seriously. “This Morrison person has very little influence or sway within his own country, he seems an odd choice to send to a national conference,” one government source said.

Mr Perrottet said Morrison would be there on behalf of all Australian fossil fuel companies. He also announced that Australia would be reverting to its former deal with France to build submarines.









						Perrottet Confirms Scott Morrison Will Represent Australia At COP26 Climate Talks
					

He is waiting for final approval from the National Party.




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (18 October 2021)

What is it with the main stream parties that despite all the flak they have copped over the years, they still want to instal their captains picks in a  vacant parliamentary seat.
Local members are treated as serfs, expected to front up at election time  and do the leg work for the party, organise fund raisers etc, but they should never think themselves so uppity that they get to choose their own candidate.
This time its the the libs at fed level, namely the PM, who have "chosen" a failed  state parliamentary hack to run in a federal seat, overiding whatever wishes the local members may have.
How many times do they think they can get away with it?
They wonder why so many disaffected potential candidates end up running as independents.
I hope that constance loses to a popular local person.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> What is it with the main stream parties that despite all the flak they have copped over the years, they still want to instal their captains picks in a  vacant parliamentary seat.
> Local members are treated as serfs, expected to front up at election time  and do the leg work for the party, organise fund raisers etc, but they should never think themselves so uppity that they get to choose their own candidate.
> This time its the the libs at fed level, namely the PM, who have "chosen" a failed  state parliamentary hack to run in a federal seat, overiding whatever wishes the local members may have.
> How many times do they think they can get away with it?
> ...



That happens at all levels of Government IMO, there is a big branch stacking investigation going on somewhere at the moment, the chances of a local hard working member getting pre selected, would be similar odds to lotto. 🤣
There is more likelyhood of them getting the job, of being a mattress, for a member being parachuted in.

The other classic, is the father/son rule, oh sorry that's AFL. 





__





						Parliamentary relations: political families in the Commonwealth Parliament
					

.js table tbody .even th, .js table tbody .even td, table thead th, table thead td { background: inherit;}  Updated 9 November 2015 PDF version [323 KB] Hannah Gobbett and Martin Lumb Politics and Public Administration Section This paper is an update of Martin Lumb’s P




					www.aph.gov.au


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

A couple of articles, which probably highlight why Turnbull was chucked out, one is Turnbull explaining that the Nationals are climate deniers and the other Barnaby Joyce explaining why he has an obligation to represent those who voted for him.

Malcolm Turnbull: Oct 18 2021





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				




Barnaby Joyce: Oct 18 2021








						Hon. Barnaby Joyce MP. Interview with Michael Rowland, ABC News Breakfast Monday, 18 October 2021
					

Interview with Michael Rowland, ABC News Breakfast Monday, 18 October 2021 TOPICS: Net zero EO&E… MICHAEL ROWLAND: The Prime Minister may now be




					www.miragenews.com


----------



## mullokintyre (19 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> explaining why he has an obligation to represent those who voted for him.



who does he think he is?
Representing the people who voted for him!.
Thats not how democracy works, it is supposed to be the power elites telling the plebs whats good for them.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> A couple of articles, which probably highlight why Turnbull was chucked out, one is Turnbull explaining that the Nationals are climate deniers and the other Barnaby Joyce explaining why he has an obligation to represent those who voted for him.
> 
> Malcolm Turnbull: Oct 18 2021
> 
> ...




If Morrison really wanted a 2050 target then he should put the legislation to the Labor Party and if Labor agreed the Nats would be irrelevant.

I doubt if Morrison has the guts for that though.


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If Morrison really wanted a 2050 target then he should put the legislation to the Labor Party and if Labor agreed the Nats would be irrelevant.
> 
> I doubt if Morrison has the guts for that though.



There is no point in having a coalition, if you only give a $hit about what your side has to say, that was Turnbull and Rudds problem they only gave a $hit what they had to say.
Right or wrong, Joyce is representing his constituents, they have the same rights to be heard as anyone else, it is no different to cancelling Hanson.
It is up to Morrison to convince the Nats it is in their and their constituents best interest to work out a workable way to adopt the desired outcome, not just find a way to shut them up and put a knife in their backs.
If he can't do that then they will probably get creamed by the media and the electorate, if Morrison sides with labor to defeat his own coalition partners he deserves to go the way of Turnbull IMO.

I see Turnbull was made head of the NSW climate board for about one week, obviously he put paid to that plan when he called for a moratorium on new coalmines and mine expansions within a short period of appointment, but hey lets blame Murdoch. My guess is one dose of Malcolm was enough for everyone who attended.








						Turnbull blames 'rightwing media' for dumping from NSW climate change board
					

Former PM claims NSW Coalition government was influenced by News Corp when it reversed his appointment to new Net Zero Emissions and Clean Economy board




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (19 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> who does he think he is?
> Representing the people who voted for him!.
> Thats not how democracy works, it is supposed to be the power elites telling the plebs whats good for them.
> Mick



Yea, I wonder if it is more representing who is donating to the party.
The farmers are scared the EU are going to put in tariffs, farmers federation is for action, they and also want the deals so they can get cash for their bit contributing to a greener economy. They can get credits for the land but at present only the government gets it.








						Australian Farmers | Discover the story of Australian agriculture
					

Australian Farmers provides a window into Australia's vibrant farm sector. Uncover the stories of the people behind your food and fibre, and access facts and resources to improve your knowledge of one of Australia's most important industries.




					farmers.org.au
				












						Australia can't afford to get this wrong - National Farmers' Federation
					

The bright and prosperous future of farmers and regional Australians depends on the Government getting its climate change commitments right. An important part of this is to provide a just and supported transition. “Right now, is a moment in time in which we can change for the better how, as...




					nff.org.au
				





I think they are representing coal interests as that is where they are getting their election funding.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, I wonder if it is more representing who is donating to the party.



Well, if one takes that attitude, one needs to apply it to all parties, not just the nats.
So you would need to look at all positions and utterances through the prism of donations.

Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (19 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, if one takes that attitude, one needs to apply it to all parties, not just the nats.
> So you would need to look at all positions and utterances through the prism of donations.
> 
> Mick



100% true. The Libs are influenced but less so.
Labor has to obey the Unions. State parties have been proven to be influenced by the gambling lobby, I will give points to NSW for pushing back, Victoria is just hopeless.

But the NATs need the farmers on side. They had better be careful.
Their southern seats have nothing to do with coal.


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, I wonder if it is more representing who is donating to the party.
> The farmers are scared the EU are going to put in tariffs, farmers federation is for action, they and also want the deals so they can get cash for their bit contributing to a greener economy. They can get credits for the land but at present only the government gets it.
> 
> 
> ...



That is what the media would have you believe, but if you lived in an area with your family, that relied on you having a job I'm sure you would be concerned.
If you live in a city as I do and am retired I don't give a rats, but when in my early years I did work in a coal area and the whole community was dependent on it, without it there wouldn't be a community.
That is fine for the young who just move elsewhere, but for those with limited options, it means the value of their house goes, their earning potential goes, their whole world implodes.
It is very easy to just make them a faceless group that morph into one person, then ignore their plight, but they are a taxpayer same as everyone else and they are voters same as everyone else, so they have just as much right to voice their concerns as others have to ignore them.
We as a society are becoming very good, at ignoring those, who appear to getting in the way of our own beliefs. 

Maybe the media could do a piece on what the Nationals actually want and what options are available, rather than just demonising them as getting in the way of net zero by being bloody minded?


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2021)

I just read this article, it sounds as though Barnaby has decided he has received enough coverage for his point of view and is falling into line behind the P.M. The recent photo's of him, don't bode well for his health IMO.









						Barnaby Joyce says Scott Morrison has a mandate on climate
					

The Deputy Prime Minister defended his party for dragging out talks on the emissions target but conceded the Prime Minister had the “prerogative” to decide the policy.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## basilio (19 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is what the media would have you believe, but if you lived in an area with your family, that relied on you having a job I'm sure you would be concerned.
> If you live in a city as I do and am retired I don't give a rats*, but when in my early years I did work in a coal area and the whole community was dependent on it, without it there wouldn't be a community.*
> That is fine for the young who just move elsewhere, but for those with limited options, it means the value of their house goes, their earning potential goes, their whole world implodes.
> It is very easy to just make them a faceless group that morph into one person, then ignore their plight, but they are a taxpayer same as everyone else and they are voters same as everyone else, so they have just as much right to voice their concerns as others have to ignore them.
> ...



Critical point SP. The move to renewable energy has to provide opportunities for people and communities previously dependent on coal. That can be done and is being done. But simply saying we will ignore the issue of global warming and keep producing coal is a disastrous decision. 

The Nationals have a farming community who recogise the reality, the challenges and  the opportunities around responding to global warming. The business community has also come on board and wants to change direction and develop the new industries required to deal with CC.  The coal companies are  one of the few groups who , *because of self interest alone, *refuse to recognise how critical it is to stop mining coal.


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2021)

basilio said:


> .  The coal companies are  one of the few groups who , *because of self interest alone, *refuse to recognise how critical it is to stop mining coal.



You are trying to make out, the people who own and run coal companies are stupid, that IMO is a ridiculous conclusion.

They are as smart, as people who own and run other companies, they know that the time for coal is in decline, but they also have to keep mining and selling it because we need it to make steel, Indonesia needs it to run their power stations and China needs it.
You can't shut down an industry that supports so many other people, just because you don't like it, that is a simplistic childish stance to take.
It will be gradual, that is a given and until a replacement is found in some processes it probably can't be replaced ATM.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Right or wrong, Joyce is representing his constituents, they have the same rights to be heard as anyone else, it is no different to cancelling Hanson.




But is he ?

Maybe he hasn't read the National Farmers Federation's attitutude to climate change .



			https://nff.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020.08.06_Policy_NRM_Climate_Change.pdf


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> But is he ?
> 
> Maybe he hasn't read the National Farmers Federation's attitutude to climate change .
> 
> ...



Maybe his constituents aren't all farmers?
It's a bit like saying Labor should only represent what the elite's want, because they vote for Labor and want climate action.
Or that workers shouldn't be represented by the Coalition, because it is a business based party.
Just all stereotypical nonsense that gets pedalled, to undermine baseless assumptions and arguments.
Like I said all constituents have a right to be heard, not just those who the member, the media or the vocal sector of the public agree with.


----------



## basilio (19 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You are trying to make out, the people who own and run coal companies are stupid, that IMO is a ridiculous conclusion.
> 
> They are as smart, as people who own and run other companies, they know that the time for coal is in decline, but they also have to keep mining and selling it because we need it to make steel, Indonesia needs it to run their power stations and China needs it.
> You can't shut down an industry that supports so many other people, just because you don't like it, that is a simplistic childish stance to take.
> It will be gradual, that is a given and until a replacement is found in some processes it probably can't be replaced ATM.




SP, scientists have been absolutely certain  about the reality of CC for at least 30 years now. The fossil fuel industry privately agreed with that science in the 1980's and early 90's.  That is on the record.  At every point from 1989 onwards the argument around dealing with CC was a measured but clear move out of fossil fuel  energy to clean sources of energy. At that stage no one was talking about immediate or even near term closing down of fossil fuels.  The understanding was that a 30-40  year wind down and re engineering  was a huge job but do able.  And the outcome seemed fairly promising.

*The response from the coal  and oil companies  however was unremitting lies and the sowing of doubt around a scientific issue they themselves understood and agreed was true. *

Since then these industries have continuously expanded their exploitation of fossil fuels and poisoned the political and social landscape around how deadly the the consequences would be.  30 years later we have absolutely no wriggle room left if we are to avoid the worst consequences of global warming.  The sad part is that the last 30 years has  made 1.5 -2C degree increase  in world temperature a certainty.  It will take a mammoth effort  to hold the situation at that point - if we move at warp speed. We could have avoided  all that if we had started realistic changes in 1990.

I realise that you appear pretty "meh" about CC.  Many others posters on ASF are still sure it is hoax, not happening or just a lefty lie.   But this isn't going to stop the ice caps melting  and flooding our cities or higher world wide temperatures making human survival precarious in Indonesia China and Australia. So maybe we should be realistic about the  situation?


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2021)

@basilio whether climate change is true or false is no longer the issue, it has been acknowledged and is being acted on.

The problem is the loonies haven't moved on and they don't realise it can't be fixed with the flick of a switch, but go on endlessly like demented beings, driving everyone nuts.


----------



## moXJO (19 October 2021)

Good luck with coal bringing in top dollar at the moment.


----------



## sptrawler (26 October 2021)

Well at least now with the coalition agreeing on net zero by 2050, we should have a good election issue to differentiate the parties, with them all being on the same page looking for the the same goal it should make for an interesting campaign period.


----------



## wayneL (26 October 2021)

Thoughts on Dan's Enabling Act?


----------



## sptrawler (26 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Thoughts on Dan's Enabling Act?



Can you post a link?


----------



## wayneL (26 October 2021)

The Victorian pandemic act, that give Mao Tse Dan basically unfettered power by decree.

Comment:


----------



## sptrawler (26 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> The Victorian pandemic act, that give Mao Tse Dan basically unfettered power by decree.
> 
> Comment:





That's a bit out there, now that the covid measures are reducing and 80% vaccination is imminent, one would think all those sort of penalties will be removed.
Having said that Australians do love to be told what to do, they are naturally apathetic and reserved.
Just the way they come, so if the Government want to leave the rules there, I don't think there will be much of an outcry.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 October 2021)

I am appalled at the level of power the Victorian government is  attempting to gain.
the ridiculous draconian fines is a hallmark of the labour  government.
I will not bow to the ba$tards.
I am quite prepared to fight this legislation.
To paraphrase Tom Waits, if you don't receive my postings, it means that I am in jail.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (26 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> The Victorian pandemic act, that give Mao Tse Dan basically unfettered power by decree.
> 
> Comment:





Seems a bit extreme, but it's on his head.


----------



## PZ99 (27 October 2021)

hehe... it doesn't seem that long ago that some of us decried unelected bureaucrats making policy pronouncements so if we now saying the elected folks can't do it either who is left to make the calls?  The protestors ? Conspiracy theorists ? Craig Kelly ? Andrew Bolt ? 

No thanks


----------



## mullokintyre (27 October 2021)

I don't want any of the ba$tards making decisions.
I am happy to make my own and wear the consequences.
I want all the dogooders, experts, policy wonks , power mongers and charlatans to look after their own lives and leave me alone.
Mick


----------



## basilio (27 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I don't want any of the ba$tards making decisions.
> I am happy to make my own and wear the consequences.
> I want all the dogooders, experts, policy wonks , power mongers and charlatans to look after their own lives and leave me alone.
> Mick




Is this simply about not being vaccinated Mull ? As far as I can see the laws are just about ensuring most  (not all)  shops have fully vaccinated staff and customers.


----------



## rederob (27 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Is this simply about not being vaccinated Mull ? As far as I can see the laws are just about ensuring most  (not all)  shops have fully vaccinated staff and customers.



If the antivaxxers played by the rules from the outset then their would be no need for the legislation.  
Neither WA or Queensland have had to worry because their populations seem to have worked out that covid is a killer - economy and people.
Covid isn't just about YOU.  It's about what you might have that we can't afford.


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> The Victorian pandemic act, that give Mao Tse Dan basically unfettered power by decree.



Just saw this article in the Age, I see what you mean, a $90k fine or two years in goal seems a bit over the top. It wont be long before "public health breaches", will incur more severe consequences than a lot of the criminal code.
I hope the Premier and health minister don't have a rush of blood and declare a bad flu season a pandemic, then send in the troops. 🤣 
Victorians, you have to love them don't you.








						‘Draconian’: Government introduces new pandemic laws into Parliament
					

Health Minister Martin Foley said transparent decision-making was at the heart of the new legislation, but the Opposition decried it as an “incredible attack on democracy”.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
People found guilty of “intentionally and recklessly” breaching public health orders would face two years in jail or a $90,000 fine, the premier will get sweeping powers to declare pandemics and the public’s right to privacy will be enshrined in law under pandemic legislation introduced by the Andrews government.
The new pandemic-specific laws, which will replace state-of-emergency powers when they expire on December 15, curtail the chief health officer’s powers, giving the premier authority to declare a pandemic and the health minister the role of making public health orders.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 October 2021)

Its got nothing to do with being vaxed or non vaxed or even being anti vax, and everything to do with  government control.
I believe in vaccinations, I am vaxed, will have boosters if they are required. 
I am against  coercion by threat.
If people don't want to get vaxed, thats fine by me.
If they get Covid and get sick or even die, thats is the risk choice they have made.
if we believe all the "science", being vaxed provides me with a layer of protection.
Not a perfect layer, but good enough for me to accept the risk.
if others don't  accept the risk thats fine.
Let tham all stay locked down, wear their masks, keep away from the great unwashed. Thats their choice.
I am more than happy tp walk around with people who have not been vaxed.
Its a risk i am prepared to take.
Why did the government not just decree that each premises is allowed to make the choice about who they accept, as long as that fact it is displayed for all those who may enter.
Let people make the choice, its none of the governments business.
Its so much smarter than this constant theats and want to control everything.
But you cannot create a  multiple classes of society based on their identity , their health, their religion, their ethnicity or colour.
I am also pi$$ed off with governments demanding that only certain people can do things or enter premises based on their vax state, but expect the  owners of business to not only police their over the top laws,  but then fine ridiculously high amounts of money if they  fail to do the policing job.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Its got nothing to do with being vaxed or non vaxed or even being anti vax, and everything to do with  government control.
> I believe in vaccinations, I am vaxed, will have boosters if they are required.
> I am against  coercion by threat.
> If people don't want to get vaxed, thats fine by me.
> ...



Perfect, Mick.

In a liberal democracy this is exactly how we should all be thinking.


----------



## rederob (27 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> If they get Covid and get sick or even die, thats is the risk choice they have made.



It's the risk they unwittingly pass on to someone else, and they may die.


mullokintyre said:


> Let tham all stay locked down, wear their masks, keep away from the great unwashed. Thats their choice.



It's not something we all live with because some States have had people follow public health orders and avoid the issues of NSW and Victoria.  Furthermore, public health orders are law, not choice.  The fact you don't like these laws is not an invitation to break them.


mullokintyre said:


> I am more than happy tp walk around with people who have not been vaxed.



Not really the point - it's about *public health*, not individual rights.  It's a point you will not concede because you keep making this about *YOU*.


mullokintyre said:


> Why did the government not just decree that each premises is allowed to make the choice about who they accept, as long as that fact it is displayed for all those who may enter.



Because that's patently absurd in a pandemic.


mullokintyre said:


> Let people make the choice, its none of the governments business.



Governments have a role in public health so it is definitely their responsibility .


mullokintyre said:


> Its so much smarter than this constant theats and want to control everything.



Unfortunately they have been necessitated because idiots choose to disobey public health orders.


mullokintyre said:


> But you cannot create a  multiple classes of society based on their identity , their health, their religion, their ethnicity or colour.



Given we are talking only about the propensity of viral spread and mitigation controls you are bark at the wrong tree.


----------



## IFocus (27 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Its got nothing to do with being vaxed or non vaxed or even being anti vax, and everything to do with  government control.
> I believe in vaccinations, I am vaxed, will have boosters if they are required.
> I am against  coercion by threat.
> If people don't want to get vaxed, thats fine by me.
> ...





So what happens when they get sick and clog up the hospital system blocking treatment / ICU for others?

When that happens who pays?


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> So what happens when they get sick and clog up the hospital system blocking treatment / ICU for others?
> 
> When that happens who pays?



In our state bro, McClown should pay for failing to beef up an already stressed medical system.

20 months in and done SFA.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> In our state bro, McClown should pay for failing to beef up an already stressed medical system.
> 
> 20 months in and done SFA.




Most people in WA are looking at Victoria and NSW and saying thank God (McGowan) that's not happening here.


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Most people in WA are looking at Victoria and NSW and saying thank God (McGowan) that's not happening here.



Yeah, Thank God (the real God), because the medical system is ****ed.

Quite serious cases being ramped for 6-8 hours typically.

Any event... COVID, or any sort of minor multiple casualty event, or whatever, would be a total sh¹tshow.

The state has tons of cash, the best road system in Aus, a feckin Belltower bought at vast expense*  so WTF is the holdup with expanding the public health system?

* https://elizabethquay.com.au/eq/see-do/attraction/the-bell-tower


----------



## moXJO (28 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Most people in WA are looking at Victoria and NSW and saying thank God (McGowan) that's not happening here.



Not even covid is interested in WA.


----------



## moXJO (28 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> So what happens when they get sick and clog up the hospital system blocking treatment / ICU for others?
> 
> When that happens who pays?



Same people that smoke cigarettes, drink beer, have sex with stds and so on


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> In our state bro, McClown should pay for failing to beef up an already stressed medical system.
> 
> 20 months in and done SFA.



Yet he bagged the $hit out of Barnett, for spending all the money on the hospitals and getting the State into deficit, ah politics don't you love it. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Yeah, Thank God (the real God), because the medical system is ****ed.
> 
> Quite serious cases being ramped for 6-8 hours typically.
> 
> ...



Getting a bit ahead of yourself their bud, being a newcomer.
The medical system before the last Government, was the same medical system that had been in place for the last 50 years.
Queues stuck in corridors on beds, in Royal Perth Hospital, while many sat for 12 hours in emergency, to get into the ques in the corridors, a mate who looked after his 92 year old mum and her 94 year old sister told some horror stories.
Barnett spent hugely on  hospital infrastructure, despite a disparaging media and opposition, now we find the same opposition being derided because it isn't enough. How ironic.
By the way the bell tower cost $5million, it is the only real antique we have, apart from Brian Burke, Laurie Connell, Allan Bond etc.

$5 million bucks isn't a lot for a piece of history IMO, we are so keen here to bowl it over and build something new, that becomes old 20 years later.









						The story of the Swan Bells - St Martin's Society of Change Ringers
					

How the historic twelve bells of St-Martin-in-the-Fields, London, came to Western Australia and are now rung at the Bell Tower, Perth.




					stmartinssociety.org.au
				









						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				



From the story:
_The economy under Barnett, however, continued to grow strongly — only dipping slightly during the global financial crisis — and the government found it difficult to slow spending as it strove to meet the needs of a fast-growing population.

An early warning sign came when the government, just months after being elected, decided to splash some of its cash by agreeing to a new pay deal for WA’s teachers that made them the highest paid in the nation.

Few begrudged the teachers a higher salary, but the generous agreement prompted other public servants to demand similar pay rises and made it much harder for the government to bring recurrent spending under control. Then in 2011, WA Police threatened industrial action during the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Perth unless pay demands were met. The result? A 13.25 per cent pay rise over three years, making the state’s police the best paid in the country.

The Barnett government’s other big drain on spending also had its genesis in 2008. To secure power after the cliffhanger election, Barnett agreed to Nationals leader Brendon Grylls’s demand for a new scheme, Royalties for Regions, that would redirect 25 per cent of the value of WA’s mining royalties to projects in the bush.

Much of the program’s spending helped to revive neglected regional centres. But as the state’s royalty revenue soared, Royalties for Regions was flooded with money, becoming a slush fund that the conservative think tank the Institute of Public Affairs found had “formalised pork-barrel politics on a massive, perhaps unprecedented scale’

Barnett also tapped into the boom-time mood by spending big on projects — roads, hospitals, schools, public transport, a glitzy new sports stadium and a Perth riverfront development — that he said were needed in a modern city.
Barnett has also ruled out big-ticket privatisations such as the sale of electricity assets.

He argues that WA’s utilities — including Western Power, Synergy and the Water Corporation of WA — should stay in public ownership because they are essential in promoting development across a sprawling state. Moreover, they provide a steady income stream for the government.
Asked how WA could find itself is such a difficult financial position after the biggest boom in history, Nahan said this week the government had used the windfall on the services and infrastructure required to support a population that has grown 30 per cent in the past 10 years.

“We have undertaken the largest renewal of assets in the state’s history. You name it, we’ve done it — up and down the coast,” he says.

“And we’ve had the highest paid, best-staffed and best conditions in the public service by far of any state. We spend more on every aspect of the public sector — education, health, mental health, disability services, child protection.

“The beneficiaries of the boom are people who use public services — and I think that is what people wanted.”_

Funny how memories are so short lived IMO. McGowan doesn't have to spend much, because it was already done and he got the bonus of the increase in GST reabate.
really if Mcgowan had any humility he should be putting Barnett forward for a State award, but hey that not how politics works unfortunately.
I think they would be better off, if they did remove the tribalism.


----------



## wayneL (28 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Getting a bit ahead of yourself their bud, being a newcomer.
> The medical system before the last Government, was the same medical system that had been in place for the last 50 years.
> Queues stuck in corridors on beds, in Royal Perth Hospital, while many sat for 12 hours in emergency, to get into the ques in the corridors, a mate who looked after his 92 year old mum and her 94 year old sister told some horror stories.
> Barnett spent hugely on  hospital infrastructure, despite a disparaging media and opposition, now we find the same opposition being derided because it isn't enough. How ironic.
> ...



Newcomer? Don't forget I do come from here 

Yeah jeez I forgot about the stadium too. Meanwhile over the winter and across the road, we bitched about the state of Belmont Park (still know half of the old b@stards in the members there). 

But I'd be willing to STFU about that if McStalin would lash out a bit on health.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 October 2021)

As is a fairly frequent occurrence in the forums,  my original post about the draconian laws that the Daniel Andrews government have bought in got hijacked into talking about the evils of COVId, but  will try to bring it back.
It is quite obvious, that given the enormous size of the Bill, the Andrews government has been working on this for months.
This is not a quick response to a pandemic,  rushed in an emergency, its a full blown assault on civil liberties.
The victorian Bar association  has come out with a scathing attack in a letter to its members. 
From ABC NewsThe president of the Victorian Bar has slammed the government's proposed pandemic law, calling it the biggest challenge to the rule of law in the state in decades.


> The bill, which was tabled on Tuesday, seeks to replace the state of emergency powers with authority handed over to the premier and health minister.
> 
> Christopher Blanden QC said he had "grave concerns" about the proposed legislation.
> 
> ...



The  "independent committee" has no coercive powers at all. Another toothless tiger. 
And of course  there is almost zero analytical time to give people a chance to see what other gems are in this bill.
The parliament has already excluded three members who refuse to disclose their health status.
Where are the Julian Burnsides , the Tim Tim Soutphommasane, the Victorian Human rights commission.
All missing in action.
What the fools don't seem to realise is that if by chance they were to be turned into the opposition, the then incumbent government could turn this legislation back onto them and make life enormously difficult to  for them say the least.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (28 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yet he bagged the $hit out of Barnett, for spending all the money on the hospitals and getting the State into deficit, ah politics don't you love it. 🤣





When SP?

In answer to Wayne they are throwing money at the health system if it will help who knows, I do know they have the ward space available right now (told by an insider) but don't have the staff  or the time to train up not sure if that also includes equipment.





__





						Media Statements - $1.9 billion boost for health and mental health in State Budget
					






					www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au
				




Apparently the problem isn't just WA its  Australia wide again as told by some one in the game.


----------



## IFocus (28 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> As is a fairly frequent occurrence in the forums,  my original post about the draconian laws that the Daniel Andrews government have bought in got hijacked into talking about the evils of COVId, but  will try to bring it back.
> It is quite obvious, that given the enormous size of the Bill, the Andrews government has been working on this for months.
> This is not a quick response to a pandemic,  rushed in an emergency, its a full blown assault on civil liberties.
> The victorian Bar association  has come out with a scathing attack in a letter to its members.
> ...





Haven't followed this but on the face of it seems strange and unnecessary.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> Haven't followed this but on the face of it seems strange and unnecessary.



What seems strange and unnecessary , the law that they want to pass  or my post??
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> When SP?



First thing that came up, IFocus, I'm rushing ATM, but if you want specifics, I will look them up later.








						Barnett takes aim at Perth hospital 'grizzlers'
					

West Australian Premier Colin Barnett blasts critics of Fiona Stanley Hospital in Perth, saying he is sick of people complaining about what is "probably the best hospital in the southern hemisphere".




					www.abc.net.au
				




And the new stadium, that everyone now is taking credit for.


			https://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/Hansard/hansard.nsf/0/7be23eca5a8f9dd948257cf6001f25c2/$FILE/A39%20S1%2020140610%20p3585a-3597a.pdf


----------



## Humid (29 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yet he bagged the $hit out of Barnett, for spending all the money on the hospitals and getting the State into deficit, ah politics don't you love it. 🤣











						The price of health in WA
					

HOW Perth’s pre-planned super hospital ended up late, costing more and having 400 fewer beds.




					www.perthnow.com.au
				



Before Barny this one


----------



## IFocus (29 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> What seems strange and unnecessary , the law that they want to pass  or my post??
> Mick






Haha... the law of course


----------



## StockyGuy (29 October 2021)

When Berejiklian resigned there were some bewilderment why she didn't just step aside temporarily during the hearings.  Then there was talk about a possible federal career.  I know politics is full of extreme survivors and political warriors, but could there really be any electoral  future for someone on tape promising to "throw money" at the fair township of Wagga (Wagga)?





__





						Gladys the fixer looks fixed up
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## IFocus (30 October 2021)

StockyGuy said:


> When Berejiklian resigned there were some bewilderment why she didn't just step aside temporarily during the hearings.  Then there was talk about a possible federal career.  I know politics is full of extreme survivors and political warriors, but could there really be any electoral  future for someone on tape promising to "throw money" at the fair township of Wagga (Wagga)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I actually feel for Gladys (sort of) busted for throwing a lazy $40 mil or more around that actually benefited local communities.

Compare that to the behaviour of the Federal Government, a federal ICAC would end many of the ministers careers not to mention the PM which is a shame as state politics was always corrupt to some degree, federal politics largely free of this behaviour which now seems run of the mill.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> I actually feel for Gladys (sort of) busted for throwing a lazy $40 mil or more around that actually benefited local communities.
> 
> Compare that to the behaviour of the Federal Government, a federal ICAC would end many of the ministers careers not to mention the PM which is a shame as state politics was always corrupt to some degree, federal politics largely free of this behaviour which now seems run of the mill.




To me she only did what all politicians do, try to stay in power by pork barrelling.

If Wagga needed another hospital or better facilities at the old one, what's wrong with that ?

Corruption is stealing money from taxpayers for yourself. If she did that then she deserves all she gets but I haven't seen that yet.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> To me she only did what all politicians do, try to stay in power by pork barrelling.



I really don't understand all the fuss.
Why do we have members for the electorates?
They are there to represent the electorate, not the nation at large.
What do the electors want?
They want them to represent them and  make sure their town, city or region gets the best facilities possible.
If my local MP gets new swimming pools, hospitals, better roads, a new library, football fields etc by rooting the premier, thats fine by me.
If my local MP is rooting the premier so as he/she or his/her friends get a benefit, then thats the definition of corruption.
Mick


----------



## basilio (30 October 2021)

Seems as if more than few posters can't see any problem with a political process that bypasses notions of assessing grant applications for need, economic value, and comparison against a hundred other applications.  Essentially " who do I have to xuck to get this approved?"

This analysis looks at how the Gladys story is unfolding.
Gladys Berejiklian’s Icac performance has horrified federal Liberals – but only for exposing ‘normal’ political practice​Hugh Riminton

The former NSW premier’s plight has only reinforced federal distaste for a properly functioning national integrity commission

‘Part of the love circle’: 10 memorable moments from Gladys Berejiklian’s Icac appearance
Anne Davies: ‘The public heard another Gladys Berejiklian at Icac – one who threatened to sack bureaucrats and bossed colleagues’
‘They’re dodgy’: Gladys Berejiklian warned secret boyfriend about associates in tapped phone calls played to Icac







Former NSW premier Gladys Berejiklian outside the Icac hearing in Sydney. Photograph: Dean Lewins/AAP
Sat 30 Oct 2021 09.15 AEDT
Last modified on Sat 30 Oct 2021 10.15 AEDT


Gladys Berejiklian’s performance at Icac has been watched in horror by her federal Liberal colleagues.

Not her lack of curiosity while her lover mapped out his plans for corrupt profit from a land deal; nor the way this fastidious lister of potential conflicts failed to see – or declare – the conflict in front of her, in the wheeler-dealer man she loved; nor even the way she revealed – again – how routinely pork-barrelling is woven into political practice.

The revulsion is that all this is being revealed.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ents-from-gladys-berejiklians-icac-appearance
“The NSW Independent Commission Against Corruption is an obscenity,” Berejiklian’s fellow north shore Liberal federal MP Jason Falinski told ABC radio. “It is star chamber, kangaroo court, crowd-sourced McCarthyism all rolled into one.”

Falinski claims to support a national integrity commission but sees more value in a “beefed-up” auditor general.

“You will tend to pick up corruption not in intercepted phone calls, but when when you see money transactions happening that don’t make sense,” he says.

Never mind that it was intercepts that flushed out Berejiklian’s corrupt former lover Daryl Maguire. The tapes left him no option but to reply with a curt “yes” when counsel assisting the commission Scott Robertson invited him to agree that he’d used his position “to benefit yourself and those close to you”.

In a moment of grim comedy, one chat with Berejiklian captured Maguire railing against Icac. “It’s worse than the Spanish Inquisition,” he moaned. “They could be taping your conversation with me right now and you wouldn’t know.”

The lesson Scott Morrison has taken is that an Icac brings down leaders who are otherwise doing a good enough job.

Berejiklian’s plight has reinforced his distaste for a properly functioning national integrity commission. The model offered up, initially by Christian Porter, is much tougher on corrupt law enforcement officials than politicians. Its design gives the government of the day exclusive control over which MPs, senators and staff might face investigation.

The Centre for Public Integrity calls it “a sham designed to hide corruption”.

“If you no longer care about corruption, then you are corrupt,” says Centre director Geoffrey Watson SC, a former senior counsel with the NSW Icac.

“Trust is the glue,” he says. “If you start losing that, you are taking a step towards losing why we’re bonded together as a community.”

Icac put corrupt former NSW Labor ministers Eddie Obeid and Ian Macdonald in jail. Labor is still paying the price for failing to face down those sucking at its teat. In Victoria, Labor is yet to get the final bill for the branch-stacking scandal working its way through Ibac.

The Morrison government is trailing a dismal chain of scandals. But no one seems to get called to account. Ministers refuse to be interviewed by the AFP. Even a debate about referring Porter to the privileges committee over the secret sources of his legal funding is voted down by the government numbers.

No wonder cynics stalk the land.









						Gladys Berejiklian’s Icac performance has horrified federal Liberals – but only for exposing ‘normal’ political practice | Hugh Riminton
					

The former NSW premier’s plight has only reinforced federal distaste for a properly functioning national integrity commission




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mullokintyre (30 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Seems as if more than few posters can't see any problem with a political process that bypasses notions of assessing grant applications for need, economic value, and comparison against a hundred other applications.  Essentially " who do I have to xuck to get this approved?"



The problem is , the concept of assessing need, economic value, and comparison against hundreds of other applications is a purely subjective  concept.  All the potential recipients will think their project should get up, and may well put up a good case in their own eyes.

I don't see how any bunch of Public servants are any better than politicians or the inhabitants of  a particular electorate at assessing projects.
The people who missout are not going to blame the bureacrats, they are going to blame thir local member for not being able to get the project through.

This is highlighted  at a local level in my particular LGA. The elected councillors dont really decide what gets put into the budget. The CEO and his underlings  decide what should be in the budget, the councillors read the supporting budgety papers, and in most instances support the budget expenditure. The problem is, the vast bulk of the money is spent in the areas where the CEO and his immediate underlings live. 
In a large LGA where there is usually one central city, the smaller satellite towns tend to miss out.  This year, the town where I live  has about  12% of the total population of the LGA, but got about 0.3% of the discretionary spending. The main town got somewhere around  87% of spending. Now the CEO and underlings will give a myriad of reasons why the funding projects  were worthy,  needy, of economic value etc etc. But as far as those living outside that main town, we have been screwed again.
I doubt my LGA is any different from the myriad of others. 
Mick


----------



## basilio (30 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The problem is , the concept of assessing need, economic value, and comparison against hundreds of other applications is a purely subjective  concept.  All the potential recipients will think their project should get up, and may well put up a good case in their own eyes.
> 
> I don't see how any bunch of Public servants are any better than politicians or the inhabitants of  a particular electorate at assessing projects.
> The people who missout are not going to blame the bureacrats, they are going to blame thir local member for not being able to get the project through.
> ...




Mick I suggest you are conflating different "pots of money" and different processes of assessing submissions. 

Local, State and Federal Governments and  the various  Health, Education, Community  organisations that  work  for these authorities or independently of them are invited to make submissions for projects/programs they want to run. There are guidelines mapped out and many demands for costing, projected actions and outcomes. And in the end you have to acquit these grants to prove you have spent the money as you said and that the outcomes you projected were met.

Frankly it's a bloody nightmare. From  my experience in education and community organisations the effort to construct these applications and then acquit them is often more trouble than the grant is worth.  But that is the way the system works.

The point of having an independent assessment of grants is to ensure some sense of fairness  and appropriate priority in governance. Yes there is input from local Councilors and MPs. But if you think for a second, one would realise how impossible it would be to fairly assess such grants if it was just a bunfight between MP's.

On the question of bigger allocations of funds there is more "discretion" by politicans to intervene in the processes. This is where favours get done. It is also where politicians attempt to curry favour with electorates to get votes. We saw the outcome  of this situation when the Morrison government decided to intervene in $600 million dollars of community grants before the last election and directed  funds to critical seats.

This situation also lends itself to politicians getting bribes or direct benefits from government decisions they have directed. The Obeid family are the current classic case of such corruption. Historically the Belke Petersen government was notorious for directing tax payers money to projects that benefited Ministers and friends. And there are plenty of other examples.

Local politics is always rife with self interest. It is a standing joke that Real estate agents and associated developers get on  Councils to get land rezoned for themselves or their friends.

All of this experience is why  an Independent Commission against Corruption is almost the only way to  deal with politicians misusing their position for personal benefit. If you read the story I cited  the most critical point was -

*“If you no longer care about corruption, then you are corrupt,” says Centre director Geoffrey Watson SC, a former senior counsel with the NSW Icac.*


----------



## SirRumpole (30 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Seems as if more than few posters can't see any problem with a political process that bypasses notions of assessing grant applications for need, economic value, and comparison against a hundred other applications. Essentially " who do I have to xuck to get this approved?"




Wagga isn't exactly a rich area. North Sydney car parks are a different issue, but the voters will decide on that. I don't see how politicians can be sacked for it.


----------



## StockyGuy (31 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Wagga isn't exactly a rich area. North Sydney car parks are a different issue, but the voters will decide on that. I don't see how politicians can be sacked for it.




Not sure if everyone commenting has heard the actual recording.  The tone in which they discussed distributing tax payer funds was deeply disturbing.  It's not about Wagga.  I mean, seriously, if she had somehow battled on and contested the next election all the ALP would have to do is play that recording non-stop on radio and TV.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2021)

StockyGuy said:


> Not sure if everyone commenting has heard the actual recording.  The tone in which they discussed distributing tax payer funds was deeply disturbing.  It's not about Wagga.  I mean, seriously, if she had somehow battled on and contested the next election all the ALP would have to do is play that recording non-stop on radio and TV.




Agreed, but that's a decision for the electorate. 

Is pork barrelling corrupt ? Many would say so but it's not against the law (yet).


----------



## StockyGuy (31 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed, but that's a decision for the electorate.
> 
> Is pork barrelling corrupt ? Many would say so but it's not against the law (yet).




Okay, but she's not being investigated by ICAC regarding vanilla pork barrelling of a marginal seat.


----------



## Humid (31 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Wagga isn't exactly a rich area. North Sydney car parks are a different issue, but the voters will decide on that. I don't see how politicians can be sacked for it.



Ffs you pork barrel marginal seats not safe ones


----------



## moXJO (31 October 2021)

StockyGuy said:


> Not sure if everyone commenting has heard the actual recording.  The tone in which they discussed distributing tax payer funds was deeply disturbing.  It's not about Wagga.  I mean, seriously, if she had somehow battled on and contested the next election all the ALP would have to do is play that recording non-stop on radio and TV.



I can tell you that no one would have cared except rusted on Labor voters. 

KK is still a politician who was basically obeids poodle and I'm sure her son was just involved in alleged corruption within the police. They just launched her into a safe seat as well. Not surprised as she's more on the nose then Bjiggles.

Labor ran the state so badly that even when BO was taken out everyone still went with the libs. The state moved exceedingly in the right direction since the libs have been in. It stagnated under Labor and was a corrupt shthole at every level during their last time in office. 
If Wagga got funds because of corruption and because "I don't care" I'm corrupt- so be it. Watson can go eat a dick.


----------



## basilio (31 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> To me she only did what all politicians do, try to stay in power by pork barrelling.
> 
> If Wagga needed another hospital or better facilities at the old one, what's wrong with that ?
> 
> Corruption is stealing money from taxpayers for yourself. If she did that then she deserves all she gets but I haven't seen that yet.




I understand that what Gladyis is being investigated for was *failing to report corrupt behaviour by Darryl McGuire.  *If you'll notice  from the testimony she was very quick to deny or not hear any situations where Daryl was talking about making money from various dealings he was engineering.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2021)

basilio said:


> I understand that what Gladyis is being investigated for was *failing to report corrupt behaviour by Darryl McGuire.  *If you'll notice  from the testimony she was very quick to deny or not hear any situations where Daryl was talking about making money from various dealings he was engineering.




Sure, if MacGuire got any financial advantage from his relationship to Gladys, then that's a different matter from pork barelling.


----------



## Humid (31 October 2021)

Does corruption increase with population because that $hithole NSW seems to produce large amounts!


----------



## mullokintyre (31 October 2021)

And on it goes.
From ABC News
Tim Smith, a liberal from Victoria, has resigned from Cabinet after crashing his car thriugh a fence and being charged with drink driving after having been found to be over being over .05 after the crash.
This was the loudmouth who helped Mathew Guy undermine the previous Lib leader, and was elevated to shadow cabinet  as Attorney general for his trouble.
It is a pity their brains were not as big as their egos, otherwise everyone would be better off.
Mick


----------



## basilio (31 October 2021)

I love Annabel Crabb's writing.   Witty, clever, incisive.

Her piece  of the "spectacular new leadership model " of ScoMo is up with her best.

Morrison's climate 'plan' reveals a spectacular new model of political leadership in Australia​By Annabel Crabb
Posted 16h ago16 hours ago, updated 10h ago10 hours ago





 Prime Minister Scott Morrison's net zero 'plan' reveals a spectacular new model of political leadership in Australia.(ABC News: Adam Kennedy)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article


This is the age of disruptors. And the man who today hops off a plane to take Australia's climate strategy to the world has changed the model of political leadership as we know it.

All this time, we've been thinking the idea was to outline your vision, then campaign, then get elected.

But the Morrison doctrine on climate reveals a new path: Outline what you oppose, then get elected, then shimmy backwards under sniper fire from your own side — all the while denying you're shifting at all — then calmly declare victory, claiming credit for a bunch of stuff you opposed all along.

It's sort of spectacular, in a way. If the spectacle's what you're in it for. 

The truly remarkable feature of the climate "deal" ostentatiously fished out by Scott Morrison last week from a performative scrimmage with his own Coalition colleagues, is that it's essentially a redundancy package for conventional political leadership.

After 25 years of parliamentary advocacy, research, vision, frustration, advances, retreats, reversals and waste, the Australian Government's new plan to eliminate net emissions will involve no legislation whatsoever.








						Morrison's climate 'plan' reveals a spectacular new model of political leadership in Australia
					

Scott Morrison's climate 'plan' reveals a spectacular new model of political leadership in Australia — and our next election is going to look very different from the last, writes Annabel Crabb.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (1 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And on it goes.
> From ABC News
> Tim Smith, a liberal from Victoria, has resigned from Cabinet after crashing his car through a fence and being charged with drink driving after having been found to be over being over .05 after the crash.
> This was the loudmouth who helped Mathew Guy undermine the previous Lib leader, and was elevated to shadow cabinet  as Attorney general for his trouble.
> ...



And in another one of those delicious ironies in politics, Mathew Guy will have to demand that Smith resign from parliament, considering his similar demand that Simon Ramsay, one of his factional enemies, should "consider his position" after being arrested on a similar charge in 2018.
Seems the Vic Libs are just a bunch of pisspots.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (1 November 2021)

I don't like the direction Morrison or Dutton are taking us. Unfortunately the other choice is Labor. After watching some of the other states, I don't want those totalitarian d wads in power either.

Not much of a choice


----------



## mullokintyre (1 November 2021)

A mate of mine used to say that the ideal form of government was to have two four year terms of elected democracy, then shove the lot out in a coup and have a dictatorship come in for 1 year and clean up all the **** the elected goons left behind.
Rinse. 
Repeat.
I am thinking perhaps it is not all that bad an idea.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> I don't like the direction Morrison or Dutton are taking us. Unfortunately the other choice is Labor. After watching some of the other states, I don't want those totalitarian d wads in power either.
> 
> Not much of a choice



What I've noticed through life, is that all Governments get stale, same as coaches, bosses etc.
Labor will win this election IMO, they would have won the last one, if they hadn't imploded and alienated their voter base.
The problem for a Government that has been in for a long time is, they have to change direction with the times and that is difficult to sell as it is seen by some as a backflip and by others as capitulation.
Having said that, a mate won $500 on Morrison last election, he still rubs it in.


----------



## PZ99 (1 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What I've noticed through life, is that all Governments get stale, same as coaches, bosses etc.
> Labor will win this election IMO, they would have won the last one, if they hadn't imploded and alienated their voter base.
> The problem for a Government that has been in for a long time is, they have to change direction with the times and that is difficult to sell as it is seen by some as a backflip and by others as capitulation.
> Having said that, a mate won $500 on Morrison last election, he still rubs it in.



I won around 20 times that amount just by buying banks before the election and selling them afterwards. 

FWIW... I don't think the ALP can win the next election. And when was the last time the ALP won with a lefty leader ? Nearly 50 years ago right ? History isn't on its side.... particularly with Shorten in the same position as he was when he took down two other ALP leaders


----------



## wayneL (1 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What I've noticed through life, is that all Governments get stale, same as coaches, bosses etc.
> Labor will win this election IMO, they would have won the last one, if they hadn't imploded and alienated their voter base.
> The problem for a Government that has been in for a long time is, they have to change direction with the times and that is difficult to sell as it is seen by some as a backflip and by others as capitulation.
> Having said that, a mate won $500 on Morrison last election, he still rubs it in.



If Aussies had any sense they would learn how our preferential voting system works and use it to keep totalitarian Muppets under control. 

At least in the senate anyway.... Keep the b@stards honest.


----------



## Humid (1 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> I don't like the direction Morrison or Dutton are taking us. Unfortunately the other choice is Labor. After watching some of the other states, I don't want those totalitarian d wads in power either.
> 
> Not much of a choice



New Zealand


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

PZ99 said:


> I won around 20 times that amount just by buying banks before the election and selling them afterwards.
> 
> *FWIW... I don't think the ALP can win the next election. And when was the last time the ALP won with a lefty leader ? Nearly 50 years ago right ? History isn't on its side.... particularly with Shorten in the same position as he was when he took down two other ALP leaders *



I hadn't thought about it from Labor's side, only from the coalition side, they haven't had good press for two years the media want change and what the media want, they usually get. 

On the media, I don't think the press are doing Macron any favours by using him to wedge Morrison, the other World leaders will be watching and Macron isn't putting on a good show for all the allies that fought and died for France in two world wars IMO. 
History has shown not many like open disloyalty, how it is viewed will be interesting, whether it is Morrison for cancelling a contract or Macron for being overly petulant.


----------



## Humid (1 November 2021)

Humid said:


> New Zealand



Bro


----------



## Humid (1 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I hadn't thought about it from Labor's side, only from the coalition side, they haven't had good press for two years the media want change and what the media want, they usually get.
> 
> On the media, I don't think the press are doing Macron any favours by using him to wedge Morrison, the other World leaders will be watching and Macron isn't putting on a good show for all the allies that fought and died for France in two world wars IMO.
> History has shown not many like open disloyalty, how it is viewed will be interesting, whether it is Morrison for cancelling a contract or Macron for being overly petulant.



The war lol


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

Humid said:


> The war lol



Not everyone is young and has forgotten the history, well I'm not sure about Biden.  

By the way, great to see you back, you didn't get caught up in the Rio/BHP issue did you?


----------



## Humid (1 November 2021)

At the moment Barnaby is running the show


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

Humid said:


> At the moment Barnaby is running the show



I thought he would have enough problems, running around after the kids.


----------



## banco (1 November 2021)

Humid said:


> At the moment Barnaby is running the show




Seems like it's a poor reflection on Australia's rural folk that they look at that florid idiot and think he's the kind of person they want representing him.


----------



## wayneL (1 November 2021)

banco said:


> Seems like it's a poor reflection on Australia's rural folk that they look at that florid idiot and think he's the kind of person they want representing him.



Every major party has forsaken their base constituency.

In no way shape or form is Also representing the labour movement.

In no way shape or form is scomo representing classical liberalism.

In no way shape or form does bandt represent environmentalism.

All are economic fascists and petty tyrants.

This is why we should be selecting parties to represent our individual interests. if people actually did that, rather than unthinkingly voting for what we believe is our tribet, he major parties would be wiped the f*** out.

And that would be a stunningly spectacularly good result.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 November 2021)

banco said:


> Seems like it's a poor reflection on Australia's rural folk that they look at that florid idiot and think he's the kind of person they want representing him.



The problem is, none of the other parties give a rats ar$e about anyone or anything outside of the capital cities.
So Barnaby it is.
He's just a politician.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

What are you talking about Mick?
 Try living in Perth and then try show your grandkids, where they live on map of Australia, as presented by the media.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What are you talking about Mick?
> Try living in Perth and then try show your grandkids, where they live on map of Australia, as presented by the media.
> 
> View attachment 132188



I tried living in Perth for a month back in the mid 70's,  but the comms  (the lack thereof) with the eastern states made life very difficult then.
I hope it has improved a tad since those days.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I tried living in Perth for a month back in the mid 70's,  but the comms  (the lack thereof) with the eastern states made life very difficult then.
> I hope it has improved a tad since those days.
> Mick



Ah the good old days, ring the operator then put in the correct amount of 20cent pieces and press button A.


----------



## Humid (1 November 2021)




----------



## mullokintyre (1 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Ah the good old days, ring the operator then put in the correct amount of 20cent pieces and press button A.



I was trying to run one of those stupid analogue modems that  had the old phone handset cradle. 
We were trying to connect the Perth office to the east,
Total disaster.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (1 November 2021)

Luxury!

We only had Morse code.


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 132191



I don't normally listen to T.V interviews, but as this submarine issue has been blown up, I thought I would listen to this interview posted to day.








						Australia news as it happened: Scott Morrison arrives in Glasgow for COP26 climate summit; Victoria records 1471 new local COVID-19 cases, four deaths; NSW records 135 new cases, four deaths
					

Fully vaccinated international travellers now able to skip mandatory hotel quarantine in Sydney and Melbourne, unvaccinated Queenslanders have missed a key target and the leaders of the world’s biggest economies have failed to agree on how to achieve a crucial emissions goal.




					www.smh.com.au
				




It is embedded, so can't get a direct link, but it is in a shipyard must be in the U.K., 20 minute interview not subscription.
Interesting it isn't available as a stand alone article, considering its importance, he does actually go through the whole sequence of events.
Not that it interests the Australian media, the SMH embed it so it is lost, News corp paywall it and the ABC don't post it. 
Last thing that Australians need is actual information from the source, no you can only read or hear, what the media wants you to hear. 
Tune in to the project, the 7.30 report, Q&A, any of the early morning gossip shows, to learn what the "real" issue is and get you your daily dose of Knowledge.


----------



## wayneL (1 November 2021)

...and just as a sidebar (Lyden is my hero, seriously):


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> ...and just as a sidebar (Lyden is my hero, seriously):



Actually the left wing have nailed it, they can say WTF they like, because through history they have been seen as the meek who are oppressed.
Now they are in a position of control, they have become the aggressor but are using the shield of meekness to be just as aggressive as the right wing were previously.
Fortunately on the Bell shaped curve, the fanatics fall at both ends and are the minority, it is only in times of desperation that the fanatics usually take over as the majority are at those times desperate.
The last thing Australians are ATM is desperate, they may be desperate to buy a house in Melbourne or Sydney, but in reality they ain't desperate. So middle Australia will have its way, as usual, despite the rantings and ravings.


----------



## Humid (1 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I don't normally listen to T.V interviews, but as this submarine issue has been blown up, I thought I would listen to this interview posted to day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.....a great distraction from the lack of climate policy
Suckered by murdoch again


----------



## sptrawler (2 November 2021)

Humid said:


> I think you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.....a great distraction from the lack of climate policy
> Suckered by murdoch again



It was the Sydney Morning Herald, I don't think that is Murdoch and he was only addressing the media attack over the subs, which is what seems to be filling the media at the moment.
So I guess if he had refused to answer the question about the subs and only talked about climate change, you would be saying he was avoiding the subs issue?
Win, Win.  
This is the problem when you are overly invested in your belief, you don't open your mind to other ideas, but it is great to see passion.


----------



## sptrawler (2 November 2021)

Finally an article on the issue.
I put an important piece of highlighted information in, that was in the broadcast interview, but was omitted from this transcript, most unusual. 
If you listen to the actual interview, it wasn't until just before the AUKUS announcement, that the UK and U.S agreed to let us have the nuclear subs, then Morrison told Macron they were looking at alternatives as there had been dramas with the French contract and by the time they arrived in 2038 they would be useless.
I guess now the media will try and scuttle the nuclear sub deal, then they have a new headline, it is all so predictable.  








						PM points to secret texts as he hits back at French leader over submarine row
					

Scott Morrison cited the text messages as proof that he gave President Emmanuel Macron fair warning the deal would be dumped.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Prime Minister Scott Morrison has hit back in his extraordinary row with President Emmanuel Macron over claims that he lied about a $90 billion submarine contract, citing secret text messages as proof that he gave the French leader fair warning the deal would be dumped.

One day after Mr Macron accused him on camera of lying about the deal, Mr Morrison revealed more details about their private talks to justify the way he cancelled the contract and formed a submarine alliance with the United States and the United Kingdom.

“This was a highly secure decision, a highly secure announcement, over which we had held these things incredibly tightly, not just for many months but in Australia’s case for more than a year,” Mr Morrison said.

“It was my obligation to advise him of that directly. He was clearly aware over some months that there were concerns, and they were responding to those concerns.

“We had correspondence and other messaging during that period. And we decided, in Australia’s interest, not to go ahead.”

Mr Morrison said the search for an alternative had been under way with the Australian Defence Force for 18 months, but intensified when Naval Group of France failed to meet a deadline for part of the project last year.

“We were supposed to have gone through the Scope Two projects gate the previous December and those marks were missed,” he said. “Ironically, had that been achieved, then quite likely all of this would have been moot.

“That opened up a further opportunity for us to pursue our alternative, which I did, in Australia’s interest, and I make no apology for it.”

Mr Morrison said he discussed the alliance with Mr Biden and British Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the G7 summit in Cornwall in June this year*( where it was actually finally agreed Australia would gain access to US/UK submarines)*  and had dinner with Mr Macron several days later in Paris where he told him Australia was considering alternatives to the Attack-class submarines meant to be built by Naval Group.

Loading
“At our dinner I gave the opportunity for the French to respond to the matters I had raised and that took place over the next few months,” Mr Morrison said.

“Now, we eventually formed the view that we would agree to disagree and the Attack-class submarine would not meet our requirements and we decided, finally, only in the days before the announcement of the AUKUS arrangement*(when the US and UK agreed they would let Australia have their nuclear submarine technology* and going forward with that decision on nuclear submarines, was that decision finally made.

“And that occurred at the same time that I could be assured that we had a clear path forward for a nuclear submarine.
“I was not going to leave Australia stranded between two projects.”

Mr Morrison defended his handling of the affair by saying Australia was able to secure access to nuclear submarine technology possessed by only two other countries, the US and the UK.
The technology fits a nuclear reactor to a submarine without needing replacement or additional nuclear fuel during decades of service, a vital difference with the French model because it means Australia would not need a civil nuclear industry to maintain the vessel.
Loading
Mr Morrison noted that Mr Macron sent a French admiral to Australia after the dinner in Paris and the French defence industry mobilised to try to save the deal, proof in his view that the French knew the contract could be cancelled.
“There was a three-month period when the issues that had been raised were being discussed between French and Australian officials and the Naval Group,” he said.

“There’s no easy way to say to a contractor that you are going to not proceed through the next gate of the contract.”


----------



## Humid (2 November 2021)

Here’s something that definitely happened: At no time did the Aust Govt formally advise the French Govt that the subs deal was dead before the AUKUS announcement. Inklings and reading between the lines don’t cut it.


----------



## Humid (2 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Finally an article on the issue.
> I put an important piece of highlighted information in, that was in the broadcast interview, but was omitted from this transcript, most unusual.
> If you listen to the actual interview, it wasn't until just before the AUKUS announcement, that the UK and U.S agreed to let us have the nuclear subs, then Morrison told Macron they were looking at alternatives as there had been dramas with the French contract and by the time they arrived in 2038 they would be useless.
> I guess now the media will try and scuttle the nuclear sub deal, then they have a new headline, it is all so predictable.
> ...



Yeah its called confirmation bias glad you found it


----------



## sptrawler (2 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Here’s something that definitely happened: At no time did the Aust Govt formally advise the French Govt that the subs deal was dead before the AUKUS announcement. Inklings and reading between the lines don’t cut it.



That's true.
I bought shares in SO4 recently, they told me that everything was 95% up and running, ready to rock and roll, but then they folded am I pizzed "yes", does it matter "No".  
The French contract was $hit start to finish, it was behind schedule and over budget for a ridiculous product, it was canned when a better option became available, that's life.
They will have been paid for what they have done, or should we just continue down the track of buying a pile crap? Then everyone would be complaining about the pile of crap submarines.
Lets be honest Abbott organised building replacement subs with the Japanese, then Turnbull threw all that out and went with the French, they are all no better than each other.









						Japan calls for explanation on subs snub as France celebrates win
					

The Australian Government's decision to award France the $50 billion submarine contract provokes a sensitive diplomatic engagement with Japan.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Does anyone think for one minute if the roles were reversed France wouldn't pull out of a contract with us, yeh right. If the French had been on time and on budget, Australia probably wouldn't have been able to get out of the contract.
I don't care who made the decision, $90 billion dollar diesel powered subs in 2038, ain't going to cut it.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Every major party has forsaken their base constituency.
> 
> In no way shape or form is Also representing the labour movement.
> 
> ...




Well, Labor represents the unions which are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

The LNP represents the rich and large business.

The Greens represent a small environmental lobby.

Hanson represents right wing nutcases.

The only people I see representing ordinary wage and salary earners are Independants , and may their tribe increase, which is what I think you are saying wayne ?


----------



## Humid (2 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Finally an article on the issue.
> I put an important piece of highlighted information in, that was in the broadcast interview, but was omitted from this transcript, most unusual.
> If you listen to the actual interview, it wasn't until just before the AUKUS announcement, that the UK and U.S agreed to let us have the nuclear subs, then Morrison told Macron they were looking at alternatives as there had been dramas with the French contract and by the time they arrived in 2038 they would be useless.
> I guess now the media will try and scuttle the nuclear sub deal, then they have a new headline, it is all so predictable.
> ...



And then leaks a private message from a world leader.....to murdoch!
Pity you dont see the reply though?


----------



## sptrawler (2 November 2021)

Humid said:


> And then leaks a private message from a world leader.....to murdoch!
> Pity you dont see the reply though?



It will be all patched up in 6 months time, Albo will be in and will re instate the French sub deal, rinse, wash, repeat. 

The good thing to come out of this IMO, is that no matter what relationship with another country, when it comes to money it overrides everything. I certainly hope Australia has a longer memory, than France obviously does, and Turnbull for that matter.


----------



## Humid (2 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It will be all patched up in 6 months time, Albo will be in and will re instate the French sub deal, rinse, wash, repeat.
> 
> The good thing to come out of this IMO, is that no matter what relationship with another country, when it comes to money it overrides everything. I certainly hope Australia has a longer memory, than France obviously does, and Turnbull for that matter.



Thank god we got a good deal with the fighter planes.....


----------



## sptrawler (2 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Thank god we got a good deal with the fighter planes.....



That will end up being another contract cancellation, the way it is going, we will probably end up just buying off the shelf from China. 

I just read this article, this is going to get very interesting IMO. As we always say the truth has a way of coming out.








						Slurs, lies and sledges: is Macron or Morrison telling the whole story?
					

At the heart of the collapse of Emmanuel Macron and Scott Morrison’s relationship are two questions.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Australian officials insist there is much more to this story which would reflect poorly on France if made public. The French say much the same and note they also have texts from Morrison.

At this low point, full disclosure from all sides probably couldn’t make this already extraordinarily serious situation much worse.


----------



## mullokintyre (4 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And on it goes.
> From ABC News
> Tim Smith, a liberal from Victoria, has resigned from Cabinet after crashing his car thriugh a fence and being charged with drink driving after having been found to be over being over .05 after the crash.
> This was the loudmouth who helped Mathew Guy undermine the previous Lib leader, and was elevated to shadow cabinet  as Attorney general for his trouble.
> ...



Tony Abott, once again showing an appalling lack of judgement, has suggested that the dork Smith needs to be "saved".
From  The OZ


> Tony Abbott will urge Liberal preselectors in drink-drive MP Tim Smith’s state seat of Kew not to allow a “spirit of petty censoriousness” to end the public life of one of the party’s “best Victorian talents”, as the 38-year-old considers defying his leader to recontest the next election.
> Mr Smith is pulling out all stops to muster support from party elders and federal factional allies in a bid to save his career, despite Opposition Leader Matthew Guy publicly stating he does not want his close friend to contest the November 2022 election, ahead of nominations for preselection closing on November 12.
> 
> Liberal colleagues quipped that Mr Smith had been involved in “three car crashes”, after he gave a radio interview and held an hour-long press conference on Wednesday, during which he maintained he had only consumed “a few glasses of wine” on Saturday before getting into his Jaguar, clipping another vehicle, smashing into the side of a house and giving a blood-alcohol reading of 0.131 per cent.



Yes Mr Smith made a mistake, but its a bloody big one that can only occur if you are a complete idiot. It also says a lot about his so called 'friends" who let him drive home at 2.5 times over the limit.
Others have been fired for lesser things (Just ask Christine Holgate).
If the bloke  has as much talent as his ego suggests, and people like Abbott think, he should have no problem about getting another job.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (4 November 2021)

@mullokintyre it cost Troy Buswell in W.A his job, I'm sure there are others, I know during my working career having a drivers license was a prerequisite for holding a job and people were sacked for DD.
It is weird how politicians think they are something special and should be treated differently to those they represent.


----------



## sptrawler (4 November 2021)

I see the media is still trying to get Australia to roll on its back and pizz on itself.
I really can't understand the end game the media is trying for, do they want the Australian Government to reverse the decision and buy the diesel subs? When they at the same time argue to get rid of fossil fuel? Do they want the Government to give France extra dispensation for an agreed clause in a contract? Really what do they want to do, other than show a lot of support for another country over Australia?
It really is starting to look like the SMH is trolling Australia IMO.








						Macron or micron: Morrison will have to measure the cost of enraging France
					

The price of dumping the French submarine deal in favour of AUKUS was always going to be high. Scott Morrison will be left to ponder: was it worth it and did it need to be so high?




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## moXJO (4 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I see the media is still trying to get Australia to roll on its back and pizz on itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



SMH has had as many elitist digs as possible. mainstream journalism is trash these days.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 November 2021)

Those in  WA must be heartened by the 900 km exec jet trip that the WA premier made to Carnarvon to get a photograph with Cleo Smith after  she was found.
Bet the family were grateful for his phot op and the two police dolls as gifts.
Lets hope that Cleo grows up to lead a  happy and normal life after her ordeal. (the kidnapping i men, not McGowans visit).
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2021)

People do need to be careful what they post on social media.









						John Barilaro settles defamation suit against YouTube comedian
					

The former NSW deputy premier has settled his defamation case against YouTuber friendlyjordies —  no damages will be paid but the internet star has agreed to edit the "offensive" videos.




					www.abc.net.au
				




From the article:
Friendlyjordies settles defamation suit with John Barilaro, must pay $100,000​
Mr Barilaro was suing Mr Shanks, better known as friendlyjordies, in the Federal Court over a series of videos published last year.

Mr Shanks's barrister, Matt Collins QC, today read out a statement on behalf of his client after the court heard the matter has been settled.

"Freedom of expression for political communication is important, but Mr Shanks accepts that some of the videos posted were offensive to Mr Barilaro," he said.

"Mr Shanks understands that Mr Barilaro has been hurt and apologises to him for that hurt."


----------



## moXJO (5 November 2021)

The comedian and satirist was not ordered to pay Mr Barilaro's legal costs but will be liable for about $100,000 in legal costs related to an application to have the case heard by a jury and an application to waive Mr Barilaro's parliamentary privilege, both of which were unsuccessful.

Barilaro just had the videos racist content removed. Didn't receive money


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Thank god we got a good deal with the fighter planes.....



It sounds as though the Swiss have upset poor old Macron too, they bought U.S  fighter planes and cancelled a French contract. Sounds as though Macron is on the nose with everyone, except the Australian media, who will side with anyone as long as it isn't Australia. 🤣

Just proves the muppets will believe any $hyte they read, in the Australian media, another shot in the foot media storm in a teacup.

Australian media, the trash of the South Pacific IMO. 🤣

Let's see if these article makes the front page of the SMH, Age or the Guardian, maybe Q & A can do a segment on why the French are having so much trouble with their diplomacy. 👍
Rather than trying to force our Government to kiss their ar$e.  

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/20...switzerland-cancels-military-deal-with-france
From the article:
Rabat - France has faced another setback with Switzerland’s decision to buy the F-35 fleet from the US instead of  France’s Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft.
Reports from Swiss media suggested that Switzerland’s choice has led an “angry” Emmanuel Macron to cancel a meeting  in Paris between the French president and his Swiss counterpart, President Guy Permlin.

The meeting was scheduled for November, but reports indicate France is no longer in the mood to discuss strategic questions after Switzerland’s decision to call off a military deal.









						Fishing row: UK warns France it could retaliate over threats
					

The environment secretary says "two can play at that game" as dispute over fishing rights escalates.



					www.bbc.com
				



From the article:
France said it could stop UK boats landing in its ports if the row over licences was not resolved by Tuesday.
The UK government warned it could start "rigorous" checks on EU fishing activities in response.
Meanwhile, the French ambassador has left the Foreign Office after talks.
Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said she asked one of her ministers to summon ambassador Catherine Colonna to the Foreign Office "to explain the disappointing and disproportionate threats made against the UK and Channel Islands".
Ms Colonna left the building in Whitehall just over 20 minutes after she arrived.


----------



## MovingAverage (6 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds as though Macron is on the nose with everyone, except the Australian media, who will side with anyone as long as it isn't Australia. 🤣



Think it's more a case of the Aust media just jumping on the anti ScoMo bandwagon. The media loves reporting ScoMo upsetting foreign governments


----------



## SirRumpole (6 November 2021)

MovingAverage said:


> The media loves reporting ScoMo upsetting foreign governments




Only because he does it so well.


----------



## MovingAverage (6 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Only because he does it so well.



Does he actually 

Macron is carrying on like a spoilt little kid over the sub's--but the reality is the French have consistently failed to deliver on key milestones on the sub contract and the French contractors have a long history of being problematic on this project. I could not give a **** what side of politics you support on this, but I think ScoMo has done the right thing to terminate this contract given they have been a very unreliable partner. The way I see it ScoMo is acting in our interests and if he upset the French in doing so well then so be it.

Who else has he upset...ok, you can trot our China. But it will come as no surprise to hear me say say they have been a bully for a long time and about time we stood up to them. There is a conga line of countries that have upset China so ScoMo is in good company there. It is extremely ironic that China now wants in on the TPP despite their outrageous behavior on import tariffs.

So what other countries has ScoMo offended????


----------



## SirRumpole (6 November 2021)

MovingAverage said:


> Does he actually
> 
> Macron is carrying on like a spoilt little kid over the sub's--but the reality is the French have consistently failed to deliver on key milestones on the sub contract and the French contractors have a long history of being problematic on this project. I could not give a **** what side of politics you support on this, but I think ScoMo has done the right thing to terminate this contract given they have been a very unreliable partner. The way I see it ScoMo is acting in our interests and if he upset the French in doing so well then so be it.
> 
> ...




I think he was right to terminate the contract , but it was his side who ordered the wrong subs in the first place. He was in the Cabinet when the French deal was signed off, it should have been apparent that conventional subs were not going to cut it in 20 years, they should have been looking at other options in the meantime, like drones.

Releasing private texts without notice is indefensible , you just don't do that sort of thing and expect that other countries will continue to trust you. He could have threatened to release them unless he got an apology or justification by Macron of the 'liar' tag, but he went like a bull at a gate. No diplomatic savvy at all.

I don't care about China, you are correct that they are bullies, but they bully everyone so that one isn't ScoMo's fault.

As for offending other countries, what did Biden say about him regarding the sub deal ? "Badly handled". Morrison couldn't get a meeting with Biden at Glasgow even thought we are supposed to be their new best friend. Morrison is patently unfit to be dealing dealing with other countries he just talks first and thinks later.


----------



## MovingAverage (6 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think he was right to terminate the contract , but it was his side who ordered the wrong subs in the first place. He was in the Cabinet when the French deal was signed off, it should have been apparent that conventional subs were not going to cut it in 20 years, they should have been looking at other options in the meantime, like drones.
> 
> Releasing private texts without notice is indefensible , you just don't do that sort of thing and expect that other countries will continue to trust you. He could have threatened to release them unless he got an apology or justification by Macron of the 'liar' tag, but he went like a bull at a gate. No diplomatic savvy at all.
> 
> ...




I hear you on whether the deal with the French was right in the first place and yes that is a very good question, but to the issue of whether ScoMo is good at upsetting foreign powers that is not relevant.

I hear you on releasing the text messages, but you know Macron's idiotic dummy spit has been a little pathetic as well so I kind of like the fact that the text messages were released to actually show the public that Macron was being somewhat liberal with the facts. I guess we live in a era of "call out" culture and that is what has been done with the release of the text messages.

As for Biden, lets not get started there but I'm happy to raise the issue of the way he managed the abrupt exit from Afghanistan. As you can tell I'm no expert on international diplomacy but I think it is fair to say the way Biden managed the withdrawal from Afghanistan as "badly handled", but did ScoMo publicly comment on that? What's that saying...let he who is free of sin cast the first stone.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 November 2021)

MovingAverage said:


> As for Biden, lets not get started there but I'm happy to raise the issue of the way he managed the abrupt exit from Afghanistan. As you can tell I'm no expert on international diplomacy but I think it is fair to say the way Biden managed the withdrawal from Afghanistan as "badly handled". What's that saying...let he who is free of sin cast the first stone.




I think it was not an option to remain in Afghanistan indefinitely. The only choice really was to hand the country back to the civilian government. It certainly went pear shaped, but blaming Biden for the cowardice of the Afghan national army is stretching things a bit imo.


----------



## MovingAverage (6 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think it was not an option to remain in Afghanistan indefinitely. The only choice really was to hand the country back to the civilian government. It certainly went pear shaped, but blaming Biden for the cowardice of the Afghan national army is stretching things a bit imo.



Agree...not an option to remain indefinitely...but to exit so abruptly like Biden did...irresponsible, stupid and in his own words, badly handled. Even Trump wasn't so stupid as to exit as abruptly as Biden did. Trump wanted out, but even he knew a phased exit over time was probably wise.


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2021)

I think Macron has done a lot more damage to the French reputation, than Morrison has to Australias reputation.
The only ones who are trashing Australia's reputation is the australian press.
Macron left Morrison with little option, when he called Morrison a liar.
Since the spat the Swiss have pulled the pin on France and the U.K as I posted are now pushing back.
The only friend Macron has is Turnbull and they deserve each other IMO.
I said a long time back, the only ones who can stuff up this election for Labor, is the media and I think they are actually on the brink of doing it. Lol


----------



## mullokintyre (7 November 2021)

MovingAverage said:


> Agree...not an option to remain indefinitely...but to exit so abruptly like Biden did...irresponsible, stupid and in his own words, badly handled. Even Trump wasn't so stupid as to exit as abruptly as Biden did. Trump wanted out, but even he knew a phased exit over time was probably wise.



Attached is a video on youtube from a speech by Joe Biden in 2008, 

In defending not gertting out of Afghanistan. He says that it would take a year at least to get out of Afghanistan. He then says you could get out in a few months, but you would have to leave all the infrastructure and weapons behind. And then it would be used against "us", meaning the American people.
So in 2021 he does just that and leaves  behind the weapons and  infrastructure, as well as few people who worked for the Americans.
With so much media storage around now, just about anything you say will come back and bite you on the  ar$e in the future. 
The bloke is either poorly advised or just plain senile, or a bit of both.
Mick


----------



## MovingAverage (7 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Attached is a video on youtube from a speech by Joe Biden in 2008,
> 
> In defending not gertting out of Afghanistan. He says that it would take a year at least to get out of Afghanistan. He then says you could get out in a few months, but you would have to leave all the infrastructure and weapons behind. And then it would be used against "us", meaning the American people.
> So in 2021 he does just that and leaves  behind the weapons and  infrastructure, as well as few people who worked for the Americans.
> ...




Unbelievable....the stench of hypocrisy is unbearable


----------



## mullokintyre (9 November 2021)

Australia must have an election for the federal parliament and half senate by  May 21, 2022.

Today is the last day that Scomo can call on the Govenor general  to call an election to be held this year.
From The OZ


> Today, November 9, is the point of no return for a federal election in 2021.
> Unless Scott Morrison suddenly stops his first campaigning in Victoria, after months of lockdowns and quarantines, and goes to see the Governor-General today there will not be a federal election this year.
> While the Prime Minister has the right to call an election, either a House of Representatives and half-Senate or double dissolution election, the Constitution and the Commonwealth Electoral Act provide the ground rules.
> The two key laws are that a federal election must be held on a Saturday and that there must be a formal campaign after the issue of the writs for an election of 33 days.
> ...



Lots of experts have said that for sure  it would be this year.
Albo has already switched from his call of October election earlier in the year, and is now plumping for March 2022.
Back in February this year, Malcolm Mackerras predicted an election date of November 27th . Not only that, he predicted a lower house 9 seat coalition majority, Albo would retire gracefully and be replaced by Jim Chalmers, and the senate numbers will be 37 for the Coalition, 26 Labor, ten Greens, two from Pauline Hanson’s One Nation and Lambie. 
Thats a big call.
He has already missed out on the elction, will have to wait and see about the rest.
Scomo has always said that the election will be in 2022, after he has bought down a budget, which means an April budget  to allow for the requirement that the election must be called before  April 18t 2022.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (10 November 2021)

Another (ex) politician that doesn't know what he is talking about.









						We fact checked Alexander Downer on private jet emissions for Glasgow. Here's what we found
					

As world leaders and delegates flew into Glasgow for the COP26 climate change summit, former foreign minister Alexander Downer claimed their private jets would generate more emissions in 24 hours than Scotland does in a year. Is that correct? RMIT ABC Fact Check investigates.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (10 November 2021)

Also maybe a bit of insight into why Malcolm was so upset, when Scotty upset Emmanuel.  Sounds like Mal and Many were BFF. 😂 








						How Morrison was torn apart by Macron’s Napoleonic zeal
					

Emmanuel Macron’s political strike on Scott Morrison was not just about submarines - Australia had inadvertently curbed the French President’s broader, global, strategic ambitions.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Malcolm Turnbull’s bromance with Emmanuel Macron bloomed in 2017, after the G20 in Germany. When the summit ended the French President gave Malcolm and Lucy Turnbull a lift from Hamburg to Paris in his Falcon jet. That night they dined together at the Elysée Palace.

No doubt much of the evening was spent discussing the then $50 billion dollar contract the French had won to build 12 submarines for Australia. But the conversation wandered widely, and, at one point, Turnbull noted that Macron looked a lot like a young Napoleon.

To buttress this observation Turnbull grabbed his ever-present smartphone and showed Macron a portrait of a youthful Bonaparte. Macron looked at it and remarked, “don’t tell Theresa [May] and Angela [Merkel]”.


----------



## sptrawler (10 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Another (ex) politician that doesn't know what he is talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if Downer was saying it tonque in cheek, to highlight the hypocrisy of the business delegation and the ABC ran with it, as they do?


----------



## wayneL (10 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Another (ex) politician that doesn't know what he is talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Obvious BS.

But that still doesn't take away the hipocrisy of#CON26  attendees.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Another (ex) politician that doesn't know what he is talking about.



Find me one that does know what they are talking about..
Mick


----------



## IFocus (10 November 2021)

Keating at todays national press club does a fair job, enough to send the right wing / Murdoch press into melt down.

https://www.npc.org.au/speaker/2021/920-paul-keating


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> Keating at todays national press club does a fair job, enough to send the right wing / Murdoch press into melt down.
> 
> https://www.npc.org.au/speaker/2021/920-paul-keating



I never heard it, but there was one thing that Keating was a master of, was a tongue lashing. 

With regard Taiwan, well to me it isn't a big deal either way, but I guess it wouldn't be a big deal to the  Chinese, if we wanted to take over New Zealand. 🤣


----------



## IFocus (11 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I never heard it, but there was one thing that Keating was a master of, was a tongue lashing.
> 
> With regard Taiwan, well to me it isn't a big deal either way, but I guess it wouldn't be a big deal to the  Chinese, if we wanted to take over New Zealand. 🤣




It was typic Keating no holds barred but as always plenty of depth and detail whether anyone agrees or not is another thing but his thinking was 1st class and he had a great line attacking some ones position on China  "it would make a cat laugh".


Australian politics is poorer for his absence compared to the depth the current incumbent  "EVs will steal your weekend".


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> It was typic Keating no holds barred but as always plenty of depth and detail whether anyone agrees or not is another thing but his thinking was 1st class and he had a great line attacking some ones position on China  "it would make a cat laugh".
> 
> 
> Australian politics is poorer for his absence compared to the depth the current incumbent  "EVs will steal your weekend".



Except for K Rudd, most Politicians make more sense once they have left office.
They are no longer constrained by party politics and the niceties of international "Diplomacy'.
But then again like scomo, International Diplomacy was never one of his strong points.
Who can forget the magnificent "recalcitrant" remarks aimed at that  ar$hole Mahatir?
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (11 November 2021)

Keating needs to go away and stay gone away like all has-been PMs.  Australian politicians need to learn how to not rely on China for most things and the Americans for most other things.    

If he wants to stay relevant then he could elaborate on his daughters connections to Jeffery Epstein?  I'd listen to that.


----------



## Humid (11 November 2021)




----------



## Humid (11 November 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 132717
> View attachment 132718



Morris Johnson


----------



## Humid (11 November 2021)

PM's "naive" sub deal bungling to cost dearly: Senator  — The Klaxon
					

Prime Minister Morrison’s “naive” decision to keep France in the dark and abruptly “tear up” the $90 million submarine project will cost Australian taxpayers dearly, says key Senator.




					www.theklaxon.com.au
				




What will the deception cost us?


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2021)

Humid said:


> PM's "naive" sub deal bungling to cost dearly: Senator  — The Klaxon
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Morrison’s “naive” decision to keep France in the dark and abruptly “tear up” the $90 million submarine project will cost Australian taxpayers dearly, says key Senator.
> ...



Well, unlike so many commentators on the subs deal, at least Patrick has some credibiltiy despite being a politician.
!. he is not a member of  any mainstream party.
2.He has served in  the Navy as a submariner.
Mick


----------



## Humid (11 November 2021)

With an election looming when can we expect the national security scare card?


----------



## Humid (11 November 2021)

Scott Morrison claims he was never Scott Morrison
					

"I’ve never said I was Scott Morrison. Not once"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## MovingAverage (11 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> most Politicians make more sense once they have left office.



Not so sure about that. Let's see, Keating just likes to be controversial for the sake of it so he can remain in the spot light a little longer than usual. Turdbull is still bitter and twisted and crawls out from under his rock to take a swing at ScoMo when he can. Gillard, well not so sure she has said anything of real substance since moving on. Rudd, well what can I say...he's just Rudd. Howard, well he usually only pops up when there is an election afoot to promote he lib stooges. Mr budgy smuggler, well he grabs whatever opportunity he can to promote the same old christian views he was banging on about years ago. I don't see much sense coming out of any of those washed up has beens.


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> Keating at todays national press club does a fair job, enough to send the right wing / Murdoch press into melt down.
> 
> https://www.npc.org.au/speaker/2021/920-paul-keating



Not only the right wing press, but it sounds like the left wing press are going into melt down too. He certainly gets responses.









						Simply foul and morally vacuous: if Keating had his way, we’d cast aside 24 million free people
					

The Liberal chairman of the parliamentary joint committee on intelligence and security responds to former prime minister Paul Keating.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2021)

Humid said:


> With an election looming when can we expect the national security scare card?



I think that has already been played, with the change to nuclear subs, you may have been away when it was announced.


----------



## IFocus (12 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not only the right wing press, but it sounds like the left wing press are going into melt down too. He certainly gets responses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Not left wing, written by the Liberal party *James Paterson is chairman of the parliamentary joint committee on intelligence and security and a Liberal senator for Victoria*

Keating was giving a very hard nose assessment, his comments and reasoning on India and Japan were telling as were his reasoning on China's future IMHO.


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> Not left wing, written by the Liberal party *James Paterson is chairman of the parliamentary joint committee on intelligence and security and a Liberal senator for Victoria*
> 
> Keating was giving a very hard nose assessment, his comments and reasoning on India and Japan were telling as were his reasoning on China's future IMHO.



I didn't realise, usually the SMH is just pro left wing, so I was surprised when they had a negative headline for Keating.
It is most unusual for them to give an opinion, of a Liberal politician, unless it reflects badly on the author.

Keating always has good points to make, however as with most politicians, one has to look at it from their perspective, because they usually don't look at things from your perspective.


----------



## Humid (12 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I didn't realise, usually the SMH is just pro left wing, so I was surprised when they had a negative headline for Keating.
> It is most unusual for them to give an opinion, of a Liberal politician, unless it reflects badly on the author.
> 
> Keating always has good points to make, however as with most politicians, one has to look at it from their perspective, because they usually don't look at things from your perspective.



This is the major problem.....shooting from the hip........replacement


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2021)

Humid said:


> This is the major problem.....shooting from the hip........replacement



Or shooting from the lip... when you have nothing.... intelligent to add. 🤣


----------



## bk1 (12 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> when you have nothing.... intelligent to add




He is no longer in office, does not lead the party, and by extension, have an electorate to appeal to. 
So they say all sorts of stuff that bears no relation to their actions when they held high office.
I was relatively new to this country when Keating once described the Senate as "unrepresentative swill". ...


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2021)

bk1 said:


> He is no longer in office, does not lead the party, and by extension, have an electorate to appeal to.
> So they say all sorts of stuff that bears no relation to their actions when they held high office.
> I was relatively new to this country when Keating once described the Senate as "unrepresentative swill". ...



Sorry if you missed the humor, my comment was directed at @Humid , as his was directed at me. 
Just a bit of side banter, going on. 
A bit of a case of a battle of wits, unfortunately he is unarmed. 🤣


----------



## Humid (12 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Or shooting from the lip... when you have nothing.... intelligent to add. 🤣



Not covered by private health....leave the funny stuff to me Homer


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Not covered by private health....leave the funny stuff to me Homer



Why? You aren't very good at it. 🤣


----------



## mullokintyre (17 November 2021)

just read this in ABC NEWS


> The WA government has used its parliamentary majority to overhaul the state's electoral laws, which critics say will diminish regional representation.
> Rather than Upper House MPs being chosen from six regions of varying size, the whole state will serve as a single electorate with 37 members elected under a "one-vote, one-value" system.
> 
> Group voting tickets, which critics argue are used to 'game' the system using complex preference deals to elect candidates with tiny shares of the vote, will also be abolished.
> ...



Much has been made of Scomo being labelled a liar.
I wonder if the MSM will label McGowan in  the same way when you consider the next paragraph of the story.


> Despite repeatedly claiming it was "not on the agenda" during the state election campaign, Premier Mark McGowan swiftly moved to introduce electoral reform after securing a majority in both houses.



if we accept the "one vote one value dictum", then the WA legislative changes make sense.
As to whether its equitable, depends on where you come from.
The regional areas will say they will be completely overwhelmed by the city based vote, but that is countered by the one vote one value principal.
However, I would be more than a little surprised if the WA folk would not be up in arms  if somebody tried to apply the same rules to that august body, the Senate, once referred to by PJ Keating as "unrepresentative swill".
In the 2016 election, the quota for NSW was 345,554 votes per senate seat.
For WA it was105,091, which makes WA's votes  more than 3 times more "valuable"  than the NSW.
Just for interest, the other states were
Victoria 269,250
QLD 209475
SA 81,629
Tas 26,090
ACT 84,923
NT 34,010
Quite some disparity there between value for votes.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (17 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> just read this in ABC NEWS
> 
> Much has been made of Scomo being labelled a liar.
> I wonder if the MSM will label McGowan in  the same way when you consider the next paragraph of the story.
> ...




I fail to see why McGowan would do this when he has such a massive majority.

He's probably got 3 terms at least, why not stick with the system that put him there ?

A few demerits to him imo.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I fail to see why McGowan would do this when he has such a massive majority.
> 
> He's probably got 3 terms at least, why not stick with the system that put him there ?
> 
> A few demerits to him imo.



He is thinking of the future Labour Governments.
And it is still possible for a government  that gets a massive  majority to lose it just as quickly.
Ask Campbell Newman , the classic one term government.
John Howard came within a whisker of losing a massive majority in his first re election after introducing the GST.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2021)

It will be interesting to see how it plays out, in the past Country areas had a bit of leverage, that will be gone. So I guess it may result in reduced funding, to the Country areas.


----------



## IFocus (17 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I fail to see why McGowan would do this when he has such a massive majority.
> 
> He's probably got 3 terms at least, why not stick with the system that put him there ?
> 
> A few demerits to him imo.




The upper house is so stacked against Labor I don't ever remember them winning it in my life time so the change to one vote one value makes sense in terms of democracy will be in line with most other states NSW etc.

Changes will also stop people getting elected with 100 or so votes such as the Daylight saving party.

Compare current upper and lower houses and you can see the disparity





__





						Seating Plans
					

View the Legislative Council interactive seating plan to obtain information about Members of the Legislative Council.




					www.parliament.wa.gov.au
				








__





						Seating Plans
					

View the Legislative Council interactive seating plan to obtain information about Members of the Legislative Assembly..




					www.parliament.wa.gov.au


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

Changing the voting system usually ends up biting you on the bum a few years later.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Changing the voting system usually ends up biting you on the bum a few years later.




Heard of Joh Bjelke-Peterson ? It didn't do him much harm.


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Heard of Joh Bjelke-Peterson ? It didn't do him much harm.



Did the nationals ever get in again after him (serious question)?


----------



## IFocus (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Did the nationals ever get in again after him (serious question)?




They still dominated the conservator side of politics in Queensland so much so the Liberals joined forces


----------



## mullokintyre (19 November 2021)

As Genghis Dan struggles to get support fro his draconian emergency powers legislation through the Victorian upper house, it is interesting to not the structure of the upper house.
As it stands now, of the the 40 seats, Labour has 17, obviously not a majority.
So to get legislation passed , Labour must negotiate with the rest.
Negotiating with the coalition is out of the question. They will vote against world peace.
However, the coalition with 11 seats is not the next biggest grouping.
The cross bench, that mix of independents and minor parties, at 12 members, is a larger grouping than the coalition.
I wonder if this will start to become the norm in the future, as more and more people turn away from major parties?
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (19 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> As Genghis Dan struggles to get support fro his draconian emergency powers legislation through the Victorian upper house, it is interesting to not the structure of the upper house.
> As it stands now, of the the 40 seats, Labour has 17, obviously not a majority.
> So to get legislation passed , Labour must negotiate with the rest.
> Negotiating with the coalition is out of the question. They will vote against world peace.
> ...




As WA shows, it depends on the quality of the leadership. But WA is pretty isolated, on the East Coast I reckon people are thinking that it's a 'least worst' situation with both major parties and are going for indies like Zali Steggle and Andrew Wilke. So if you are a good quality indie then you have a chance. My Federal seat is pretty strong National, but was held by an Independent  for 11 years.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 November 2021)

There have been a few announced retirements from the Victorian parliament recently.
Tim Smith was the the coalition sacrifice, but then they never had many members to start with.
However, the Andrews labour government has had a pretty steady turnover this parliament.
Yesterday, Richard Wynne announced his intention to not run for nomination for the next election.
He joined Jill Hennessy, the former Ag who was touted as a potential successor the Daniel Andrews who had announced her not contesting the next election the day before.
About a month ago, Dustin Haise, a first time  member, shocked more than a few people when he announced that Politics was not what it was cracked up to be and would not be recontesting.
Just prior to that Danielle Green, a member for 20 years announced that she too would not be recontesting.
Thats four retirees.
Then there were the forced retirees Like jenny Mikakos  who was shoved under the bus by Andrews in the  aftermath of the first covid pandemic breakout.
And who could forget Jane Garett forced to resign over the brawl between the Firefighters Union, the Victorian Government, and the CFA.
Victorian Upper House  MP, Adem Somyurek, although still in parliament, was kicked out of the Labour party for a number of indiscretions.
Luke Donellan had to quit the Victorian cabinet over his role in the branch stacking furore, and it remains to be seen whether he will be allowed to recontest his seat for the next election.
Anthony Byrne was another casualty of the branch stacking reports, but he was federal labour.
Andrews is lucky he has so many members in both houses, otherwise he might run out of people to promote to cabinet.
Mick


----------



## basilio (26 November 2021)

Jacqui Lambie Tik Toks her way into Parliament.









						Australian senator Jacqui Lambie's vaccine discrimination speech remixed into TikTok dance – video
					

Senators speech becomes unlikely dance hit on TikTok




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mullokintyre (1 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> There have been a few announced retirements from the Victorian parliament recently.
> Tim Smith was the the coalition sacrifice, but then they never had many members to start with.
> However, the Andrews labour government has had a pretty steady turnover this parliament.
> Yesterday, Richard Wynne announced his intention to not run for nomination for the next election.
> ...



I forgot to include the Federal reps speaker, Tony Smith, as another retiree from federal parliament.
And now . according to  The Australian , it appears that Greg Hunt is about to join the exodus  of "talent' in theFederal arena.

Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2021)

Christian Porter confirms he won't contest the next election.


----------



## wayneL (1 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Christian Porter confirms he won't contest the next election.



Hunt also.

Rats fleeing the sinking ship.

I just hope that Australians don't vote for the other mob of rats.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 December 2021)

One of the rats left over made an even bigger fool of herself  yesterday.

Spent 7 minutes talking on the wrong Bill, yea it can happen to anyone.
Mick


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

The best way for ScoMo to tackle sexual harrassment of Parliamentary staff members.

* Parliamentarians promise to reduce incidence of workplace sexual harassment by only working ten days a year* 







The Government has taken swift and decisive action in response to a damning report that found Parliament House was rife with sexual harassment and bullying, agreeing to work for no more than ten days per calendar year.

“This is the only way we can think of to reduce the incidence of harassment,” a spokesperson for the Government said.                                                                                                              
The two-week parliamentary calendar received unanimous support across both houses, after which MPs decided to call it a day and hit the pub to “bring the chances of us groping someone today down to zero, at least on the Hill.”

The decision was reached after a brief discussion on other ways the situation could be redressed – including sensitivity training, a code of conduct, and alcohol policies – which were all dismissed as MPs agreed they “seem like way too much work.” A pitch to create an independent complaints body was also shot down as one MP argued that “it has the word ‘body’ in it and it’s making me horny.”

It is unsure whether the shorter period will have the desired effect of reducing workplace harassment, or if MPs will cram more groping into the smaller window. However, MPs have expressed their willingness to work even less, or perhaps even not showing up to work at all.









						Parliamentarians promise to reduce incidence of workplace sexual harassment by only working ten days a year
					

"This is the only way we can think of to reduce bullying"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

Alan Tudge has now been stood down pending an investigation into allegations that his affair with his staffer was also abusive.
Interesting to note that when the affair was made public in 2020 ScoMo declined to investigate it,









						Alan Tudge stands aside after Rachelle Miller alleges their affair was at times ‘abusive’
					

Coalition minister rejects allegations by former staffer about 2017 relationship, as Miller calls for change to address parliament’s ‘men problem’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mullokintyre (2 December 2021)

So what 


basilio said:


> Alan Tudge has now been stood down pending an investigation into allegations that his affair with his staffer was also abusive.
> Interesting to note that when the affair was made public in 2020 ScoMo declined to investigate it,
> 
> 
> ...



So what was he supposed to investigate?
It was an admittedly consensual affair by both parties.
Tudge did not deny the affair when it first came to light. 
There was no suggestion of  it being abusive at the time.
These are new allegations.
I don't see anyone demanding an investigation into Lydia Thorpes  suggestion that an opposition member keep her legs closed.
Nor do I hear anyone demanding an inquiry into the alleged rape by Bill  Shorten when he was  teenager. Kathy Sheriff, the girl concerned is alive and well, but the police concluded there was not enough evidence. So much for believing the victim.
Its a Tawdry place at the best of times.
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (2 December 2021)

WA Nationals suspend MP James Hayward, who is charged with child sex offences
					

Former Nationals WA president and current Member for the South West James Hayward appears in court, charged with a string of child sex offences relating to the alleged abuse of an eight-year-old girl.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Another one?


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> So what was he supposed to investigate?




Having a sexual relationship with a member of staff is not  business or Parlimentary practice. ScoMo got out of it by saying the affair happened while  Malcolm Turnball


mullokintyre said:


> Nor do I hear anyone demanding an inquiry into the alleged rape by Bill Shorten when he was teenager. Kathy Sheriff, the girl concerned is alive and well, but the police concluded there was not enough evidence. So much for believing the victim.



You answered your own question. The allegations were investigated and the police could not find sufficent evidence for a  criminal charge some 30 years later.


mullokintyre said:


> I don't see anyone demanding an investigation into Lydia Thorpes suggestion that an opposition member keep her legs closed.



Because she immediately realised what a twit she was and unreservedly apologized ? And maybe there is difference between a nasty, thoughtless insult in Parliament and a Minister have an affair with a Staff member over a period of time. 
Perhaps the concept of abuse of  power comes into the picture ?


----------



## mullokintyre (2 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Having a sexual relationship with a member of staff is not  business or Parlimentary practice. ScoMo got out of it by saying the affair happened while  Malcolm Turnball.



No, because there was nothing to investigate. 
It was a consensual affair, that took place before that ounce Turnbull brought in his no bonking ban.


basilio said:


> You answered your own question. The allegations were investigated and the police could not find sufficent evidence for a  criminal charge some 30 years later.



Quite some time ago you demanded the Scalp of Porter for allegations that were never charged against him , much less proven.
I ask again, why does Bill Shorten not get the same treatment?
Because he does not belong to the side of politics you  support.
Distinct lack of consistency.
Mick


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

Back to Rachelle Miller and why she decided to let loose on Alan Tudge today.

Back when the affair came out Rachelle was trashed. She lost her job. She was sent to Michale Cashs' office and effectively frozen out of the office. The Jenkins inquiry established what was an open secret in Paraliament.  That staffers were routinely harassed and abused by Parliamentarians. That the "investigative procedures" were a bitter joke designed solely to protect the politicians  and ensure that the damage done to complainers was so clear that others would rightly hesitate to raise their voice.

The Jenkins inquiry has laid all of this on the table. Rachelle decided that now was the time to speak clearly and publicly about a situation that previously she had been bulldozed into acquiescence.  She has already been taking legal action against the Government over the issues that she raised. Her legal statement lays out their position.

Gordon Legal senior partner *Peter Gordon* said today;



> Rachelle will co-operate fully with this investigation. Rachelle spoke out today on her own behalf and in support of the brave women who have fought to advance this issue in recent times. Her priority is that both major parties commit immediately to implementation of all 28 recommendations of the Jenkins review.
> 
> We regard Mr Morrison’s announcement today of what he calls ‘an independent and fair’ review of Mr Tudge’s ministerial conduct as an admission of the fundamental flaws of the existing complaints process. That existing process allows the Government to hire its own lawyers to the complaint, hide the result under legal privilege, provide a Minister with access to the determination but not the complainant, and allows the Minister concerned to tell everyone his own version of what was decided. The existing system is neither independent nor fair, as Commissioner Jenkins has made clear.






> Recommendation 22 of the Jenkins review provides that Parliament establish within 12 months a new fair, independent, confidential and transparent system to handle complaints and appeals about misconduct by members of Parliament.”
> 
> We look forward to receiving details of the terms of reference and the process Dr Thom proposes to follow.












						Fears Rachelle Miller may lose new job after speaking out over affair with Alan Tudge on Four Corners
					

Former Coalition adviser told by prospective employer it needs ‘more time to consider’ after she appeared in ABC investigation




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Ex-staffer Rachelle Miller to bring workplace lawsuit against ministers Tudge and Cash
					

Miller alleges bullying when media adviser while she and Tudge were in consensual affair, and during employment with Cash




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SirRumpole (2 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Back to Rachelle Miller and why she decided to let loose on Alan Tudge today.
> 
> Back when the affair came out Rachelle was trashed. She lost her job. She was sent to Michale Cashs' office and effectively frozen out of the office. The Jenkins inquiry established what was an open secret in Paraliament.  That staffers were routinely harassed and abused by Parliamentarians. That the "investigative procedures" were a bitter joke designed solely to protect the politicians  and ensure that the damage done to complainers was so clear that others would rightly hesitate to raise their voice.
> 
> ...




Labor better hope all their members are clean ! Nudge, nudge !


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Labor better hope all their members are clean ! Nudge, nudge !



Indeed !! If I was ScoMo and his minders  I would be moving heaven and earth to dig up some dirt on past or present Labour figures.

Ideally it would be around the actual issue of  inappropriate /abusive relationships between  current politicians and staff. But hey don't be surprised if we see  any juicy piece of gossip through up as a  desperate diversion from the current disasters.


----------



## moXJO (3 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Indeed !! If I was ScoMo and his minders  I would be moving heaven and earth to dig up some dirt on past or present Labour figures.
> 
> Ideally it would be around the actual issue of  inappropriate /abusive relationships between  current politicians and staff. But hey don't be surprised if we see  any juicy piece of gossip through up as a  desperate diversion from the current disasters.



Labor always fires too soon then run out of puff


----------



## basilio (3 December 2021)

*I wonder if/when Alan Tudge decides to sue Rachelle Miller for defamation ?*

To date  he has flatly denied the allegation of abuse. If in fact Rachelle is *fabricating *this story then the Ex Minister can conceivably sue her for slander.  ( Perhaps he could borrow a Blind Trust from Christian Porter to pay for the action ?)  

On the face of it the allegations Rachelle has made would fit the  defamation case for making people think badly of Alan Tudge, destroying his reputation and causing harm. If it was Peter Dutton for example  on the end of such an allegation, I reckon he would be suing everyone left, right and centre within a day.  

Frankly I don't think this will end up in the Courts.  Going through the secret, adulterous, Minister/Staffer affair in a public court would  simply nail Alan Tudge's coffin shut forever.  What has happened however is that Rachelle has exposed herself publicly and  publicised  an alleged significant incident with the Minister to shame the Government into holding the independent investigation it studiously tried to avoid.  She is in effect following the lead of Brittany Higgins who instead of shutting up and "taking one for the team", stood up and called out what had happened to her. 

The  alleged incident Rachelle highlighted is tacky and nasty. I'm sure similar incidents have happened in many, many relationships . The difference here is that the power basis of the relationship was just wrong.  In many ways it  is similar to the privileged expectation  of powerful people to be able to get sex where and when the want from their employees. Think Roger Ailes Fox News, Harvey Weinsten and the other 201  powerful men who lost their positions/roles when Me Too took off.









						#MeToo Brought Down 201 Powerful Men. Nearly Half of Their Replacements Are Women. (Published 2018)
					

A list of cases since the Harvey Weinstein scandal, and an analysis of those who have filled the vacated roles.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2021)

basilio said:


> *I wonder if/when Alan Tudge decides to sue Rachelle Miller for defamation ?*
> 
> To date  he has flatly denied the allegation of abuse. If in fact Rachelle is *fabricating *this story then the Ex Minister can conceivably sue her for slander.  ( Perhaps he could borrow a Blind Trust from Christian Porter to pay for the action ?)
> 
> ...




Thus is the power of allegations these days.


----------



## basilio (3 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Thus is the power of allegations these days.




Versus the Power of Wealth, Office and Denial ? 

I started a new thread on  the movie "Bombshell" .  It dealt with the sexual harassment of many of Fox's female staff by Roger Ailes as well as other big shots in Fox.  A real eye opener.


----------



## basilio (3 December 2021)

How things have changed for ScoMo re Alan Tudge. 









						Morrison is walking among landmines, and this week shows how dangerously one can detonate
					

In a sensational end to a grotty final 2021 sitting week, Rachelle Miller's claim a minister acted violently towards her was carefully timed to underline Kate Jenkins's scathing indictment of the parliamentary workplace, writes Michelle Grattan.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (3 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Versus the Power of Wealth, Office and Denial ?
> 
> I started a new thread on  the movie "Bombshell" .  It dealt with the sexual harassment of many of Fox's female staff by Roger Ailes as well as other big shots in Fox.  A real eye opener.



Cumo?


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Cumo?



Not jus Cuomo, but Bill Clinton and Monica, Princess Diana and her bodygard, JFK and marilyn, Trump and anything with a skirt, the list goes on.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 December 2021)

Ya gotta love the way  those liberal toffs in Double Bay manage to squeeze some money out of the Feds   to get  nicely subsidised solar panels for their up market exclusive  sailing club.
Poor Ba$tard$ must have been down to their last mill.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> I just hope that Australians don't vote for the other mob of rats.



Whether people like it or not Labor are the only ones who can sort this, if people like the result will be another issue, but ATM Labor it is IMO.

They are the only ones who can bring about the changes required, there is no way the media wouldn't allow the Libs to make the changes that are required..
I'm not usually a fan of Labor, but I think there is no alternative. My two cents worth.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Whether people like it or not Labor are the only ones who can sort this, if people like the result will be another issue, but ATM Labor it is IMO.
> 
> They are the only ones who can bring about the changes required, there is no way the media wouldn't allow the Libs to make the changes that are required..
> I'm not usually a fan of Labor, but I think there is no alternative. My two cents worth.




That says it really.

The LNP are old and tired, out of ideas, afraid of scrutiny and beholden to vested interests. They can't be trusted to implement any policies that their financial backers don't want, especially not an ICAC.

Labor has to be careful not to be branded with the old hackney "big spenders, big taxers", the have to explain where the money is coming from and that it won't be from the working middle class.

If they can do that they will be in like Flynn in my opinion, with all the scandals of Porter, Higgins and Tudge, the lack of policies , the submarine bungle etc, the LNP don't deserve to get back.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Labor has to be careful not to be branded with the old hackney "big spenders, big taxers", the have to explain where the money is coming from and that it won't be from the working middle class.



Unfortunately that is what has to happen, it is only Labor who can get away with it, but it has to happen.
The engine room is the only ones who can be squeezed, big business will just move, welfare is a no go and SMSF in reality is too small to achieve anything.
The big costs? Healthcare, NDIS, welfare, education and national debt.
So options, GST up, retirement age up, minimum and maximum withdrawals on super possibility of introduced, death tax which will probably just be aligning super death payout with a tax bracket 15% + Medicare isn't really much difference to the 19c lowest tax bracket, tax lump sum withdrawals from super.
Where can the middle class be squeezed? Interest rates, increase super contributions, reduce tax deductions, fuel excise, land tax? (more state based), raise tax rates(unlikely),shift tax brackets?(possible)
One thing for sure as last election showed, no matter what we guess we will probably be wrong.lol

Something has to happen, the Libs are going nowhere


----------



## wayneL (7 December 2021)

While I agree the LNP is an absolute clusterf***, if you thing Labor has any answers, you are freakin' dreaming.

Well, apart from what you have intimated, and that is screwing the middle class, which is an answer at all and which will guarantee the steady decline of this country and a descent into more and more division... Wherever that ultimately leads.

I see Labor romping in in the next federal election... Well, actually, it will be more like the LNP romping out, but my sincere hope is that the minors get a controlling minority in at least the senate and hopefully the reps as well.

That would make things very interesting.


----------



## basilio (7 December 2021)

A  "police" response to the Jenkins Inquiry
*
        Police urge residents not to visit ‘seedy, unsafe’ district of Canberra * 







Federal police have erected fences around an area in central Canberra, saying it is unsafe for residents to visit, urging them to avoid the area where possible.

Police spokesperson Andy McCallum said the area was renowned for its seedy and at times violent nature. “This is an area that is frequented by drunks and other unsavoury characters. Visitors regularly report experiencing verbal and physical abuse,” he said.                   

“In the last week alone we’ve seen women growled at and told to ‘keep their legs shut’, as well as heard accusations of assault, intimidation and threatening behaviour. That’s on top of several reports of rape and physical abuse earlier this year. It’s seedy, it’s aggressive and it’s unsafe, which is why we’re advising people to avoid the area at night. And during the day.

He said people should only travel to the area if they absolutely had to. “As far as we know, there is no work being done in this location, so we see no reason why anyone would have a need to go there”.

The area has been shut down until 2022.








						Police urge residents not to visit ‘seedy, unsafe’ district of Canberra
					

"We're advising people to avoid the area"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## basilio (20 December 2021)

Another* "Honest Government Ad" * 
Excellent  very funny, presentation on why a "well hung" Parliament is the only way to get action on a decent Federal ICAC and CC action that isn't undermined by fossil fuel interests.


----------



## basilio (20 December 2021)

Background to the latest Honest Government ad on creating a "well hung" Parliament.

_Dear Patrons

Here is the latest Honest Government Ad that you've helped to make possible. 

This is our last Honest Government Ad for 2021. I want to thank all of you for supporting our The Juice Media this year; we've covered a lot of topics - especially on climate and energy policy. And thanks to you, we've continued to remain 100% independent. 

This HGA is also our first episode in what will be our coverage of the federal election that will happen here in Australia in the first half of 2022. 

It's an absolutely crucial election because we can't afford another 3 years of climate shitfucxery like the world witnessed from this govt at the COP26 summit in Glasgow. 

And whilst their climate policies differ in some regards, neither major party is going to this election with a science-based emission target or a policy to phase out coal and gas this decade - which is what the science says must happen. 

Which is why the key to ending this ****-stained chapter of climate inaction in Australia is to elect a Crossbench full of Not-xhit MPs who will force both major parties to adopt Not-**** climate policies, if they want to govern. 

(“Not-xhit Candidate” is my short-hand for a party or Indy candidate with science-based policies for responding to the climate crisis and who doesn't take money from coal & gas companies - which unfortunately excludes both major parties. There are of course also xhit Indys and 3rd parties - so it's important to check their policies before you give them your vote!)

The Morrison Government is xhitting itself about all the Not-xhit candidates running in safe conservative/Liberal seats coz they know voters there won't elect a Labor/Greens candidate, but they might elect a small-l liberal Not-xhit Independent (as they did in Indi, Mayo and Warringah). And its strategy for dealing with this threat, will be to run fear-campaigns about Indys, hung parliaments and minority governments - with help from uncle Rupert. 

Which is why it's so important that more people understand what these things are in the lead up to this election. And it's why we made this Honest Government Ad.

One of the things I love doing with this series is helping to improve literacy and understanding about legislation, policies and how government and elections work. So I've been working on this video for several months, trying to figure out the best possible way of explaining these rather complicated concepts to people ahead of the election.

There is of course much more to say about this HGA, but I'll leave it for the podcast companion - which I'll share with you here shortly. (Ellen and I are currently editing it!)

Meanwhile, if you haven't seen our Honest Government Ad about Preferential Voting, I encourage you to check it out. The Hung Parliament HGA acts as its sequel - explaining what happens when Not-**** candidates are elected to the crossbench.

I hope you enjoy this Honest Government Ad, and I'll catch you soon with the podcast for a more in-depth chat about well hung parliaments and more...

Till then, take care
Giordano_


----------



## mullokintyre (20 December 2021)

From The OZ


> Former Liberal Senator and Senate President Scott Ryan has been named as Australia’s new High Commissioner to Canada.
> 
> Foreign Minister Marise Payne announced the appointment of her former colleague today, lifting the number of political appointees to senior diplomatic posts to a record 11 ambassadors, high commissioners and consuls-general.
> 
> ...



My experience with Diplomats when working  in the Pacific region was never terribly encouraging, particularly the ones from DFAT.
They may have had a lot of diplomatic skills, but their business and finance acumen left a lot to be desired.
Not sure if replacing career diplomats with ex politicians would offer anything of great consequence.
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (23 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> People do need to be careful what they post on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







			https://twitter.com/friendlyjordies
		


This video put up in the past few days.  MSM yet to pick it up.

Why did John Barilaro resign again?


----------



## basilio (23 December 2021)

* New ‘Honesty Box’ system – ATO to ‘trust Australians to do the right thing’               *






The Australian Tax Office has taken the Prime Minister’s lead and will move to an honesty box system whereby citizens will take personal responsibility for the amount of tax they pay.

Announcing the changes, the ATO repeated Mr Morrison’s words, saying it was time to move away from a culture of mandates and instead let Australians use common sense when managing their own affairs.                                                                               

“Australians don’t want the ATO in their lives, and to be totally honest, it’ll cut down our workloads quite a lot if we don’t need to be in theirs,” a spokesperson for the ATO said.

“So, in the spirit of personal responsibility, we’ve decided to scrap tax returns and employee payments and we’ll now just have a box out the front of our office. If you feel compelled to pop some money in there, great. If not, that’s fine too”.

The ATO said they were yet to brief the Prime Minister on the changes, but assumed he’d be fine with it. “I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t support the socialist, nanny-state idea of the Tax Office mandating the payment of taxes!” the spokesperson said.

The new ‘pay-what-you-like’ taxation model has been successfully trialled in some sectors already, with companies such as Google, Chevron and NewsCorp operating on the optional taxation model for years.









						New ‘Honesty Box’ system – ATO to ‘trust Australians to do the right thing’
					

"It's time for Australians to take personal responsibility for the amount of tax they pay"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## orr (23 December 2021)

The Triangle said:


> https://twitter.com/friendlyjordies
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Only 200k odd views of Mr Jordies abstract connect the dots on 'johnlikestolick' after 24hrs up and not to my understandind not a peep from Fairfax, Murdoch or Aunty...  
So from me here out iin the provinces ... Merry xmas 'Bruz'... and it looks to me to be a very good new year. Ohh and bruz your balls hang on my and many another  a key chain.

Maybe Not so good a year for politically enabled rouge terror squard ego-maniacs though....'Che sera sera"


----------



## The Triangle (23 December 2021)

orr said:


> Only 200k odd views of Mr Jordies abstract connect the dots on 'johnlikestolick' after 24hrs up and not to my understandind not a peep from Fairfax, Murdoch or Aunty...
> So from me here out iin the provinces ... Merry xmas 'Bruz'... and it looks to me to be a very good new year. Ohh and bruz your balls hang on my and many another  a key chain.
> 
> Maybe Not so good a year for politically enabled rouge terror squard ego-maniacs though....'Che sera sera"



And it seems John Barilaro's twitter account has been deleted in the past few hours.  https://twitter.com/johnbarilaromp


----------



## Humid (24 December 2021)

What a difference a state makes......classic murdoch


----------



## mullokintyre (24 December 2021)

The Triangle said:


> And it seems John Barilaro's twitter account has been deleted in the past few hours.  https://twitter.com/johnbarilaromp
> 
> View attachment 134705



Could it possibly be because as Barrilaro has resigned,  he will no longer be a state  MP and thus could not have an MP's twitter account?
I suspect  the main reason that the MSM have not followed this up is because they see the Jordan Shanks for what he his- a foul loudmouth who will end up with a series of court cases that will eventually bankrupt him and anyone who  reproduces his crap.
Mick


----------



## Humid (24 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Could it possibly be because as Barrilaro has resigned,  he will no longer be a state  MP and thus could not have an MP's twitter account?
> I suspect  the main reason that the MSM have not followed this up is because they see the Jordan Shanks for what he his- a foul loudmouth who will end up with a series of court cases that will eventually bankrupt him and anyone who  reproduces his crap.
> Mick



What like Google.....good luck with that
Its before the courts now isnt it?


----------



## moXJO (24 December 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 134728
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"It's on like Omicron"
Now there's a catchphrase. That journalist deserves a walkley.


----------



## mullokintyre (24 December 2021)

Humid said:


> What like Google.....good luck with that
> Its before the courts now isnt it?



What is before the courts?
"Its" covers a lot of things.
Mick


----------



## Humid (24 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> What is before the courts?
> "Its" covers a lot of things.
> Mick











						Google to call friendlyjordies in Bruz court case
					

Jordan Shanks, the face of friendlyjordies, appears set to testify for Google as it defends defamation action from NSW MP John Barilaro, a court has heard.




					thenewdaily.com.au
				



There ya go


----------



## mullokintyre (24 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Google to call friendlyjordies in Bruz court case
> 
> 
> Jordan Shanks, the face of friendlyjordies, appears set to testify for Google as it defends defamation action from NSW MP John Barilaro, a court has heard.
> ...



That court case is as a result of something posted some time ago.
This latest tirade, along with the absolute malevolent garbage he posted about Nicole Flint is more recent, and will land him and anyone who reproduces it in a bit of bother.
I am no fan of Barillaro, but Shanks is a crude, misogynistic narcissist.
Mick


----------



## Humid (24 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> That court case is as a result of something posted some time ago.
> This latest tirade, along with the absolute malevolent garbage he posted about Nicole Flint is more recent, and will land him and anyone who reproduces it in a bit of bother.
> I am no fan of Barillaro, but Shanks is a crude, misogynistic narcissist.
> Mick



Um
The mob who reproduce his stuff is youtube
Its owned by Google hence the link
Its still before the courts


----------



## Humid (24 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> That court case is as a result of something posted some time ago.
> This latest tirade, along with the absolute malevolent garbage he posted about Nicole Flint is more recent, and will land him and anyone who reproduces it in a bit of bother.
> I am no fan of Barillaro, but Shanks is a crude, misogynistic narcissist.
> Mick



Lol
Nicole Flint
Stop reading murdoch bs you have been conned


----------



## mullokintyre (24 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Lol
> Nicole Flint
> Stop reading murdoch bs you have been conned



I watched  , which has got nothing to do with reading the murdoch press.
Or may be have a look at This one .
You are the one who has been conned.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (25 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Google to call friendlyjordies in Bruz court case
> 
> 
> Jordan Shanks, the face of friendlyjordies, appears set to testify for Google as it defends defamation action from NSW MP John Barilaro, a court has heard.
> ...



Awwww wait is he there to defend Google?
That's like peak hypocrisy for this guy isn't it.


----------



## Humid (25 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I watched  , which has got nothing to do with reading the murdoch press.
> Or may be have a look at This one .
> You are the one who has been conned.
> Mick




Yeah im aware of it because i follow Jordan
Your aware of it through your murdoch news feeds and couldnt wait to be offended


----------



## The Triangle (25 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Yeah im aware of it because i follow Jordan
> Your aware of it through your murdoch news feeds and couldnt wait to be offended



I doubt many people take the time to watch these friendlyjordies videos and because he is associated with the left and labor, some will no matter what dislike him.  The videos are long and few would have the patience to sit through them. I sat down and watched some and it's definitely crude content but there is no way you can call them narcissistic, misogynistic or racist, if you do - you need to revisit a dictionary or stop being a snowflake.

The guy is pro-labor and goes after right leaning politicians, media, lawyers, men and women equally, using the same insults and same foul language but he makes some good points. He raised a million dollars for his defense – so obviously there are some big wallets following and supporting him.   

Best thing for politicians to do is to ignore these kind of people.  Once you engage with a professional troll you've lost.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 December 2021)

Can we ever get rid of lies in politics ?









						Has lying become the one universal truth of politics?
					

Public trust in Australia's politicians has been at a low ebb for much of the past decade and many expect politicians to be loose with the truth, analysts say, but honesty might become a key issue in the next federal election.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

No, similar to journalists, car sales and teal estate.
They all tell you what they think you want to hear, if that coincides with the truth, it is pure luck IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> No, similar to journalists, car sales and teal estate.
> They all tell you what they think you want to hear, if that coincides with the truth, it is pure luck IMO.




True, but it's not a standard we should be prepared to accept.

We need our leaders to set high standards that the rest of us can follow, not sink to the lowest depths of society.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but it's not a standard we should be prepared to accept.
> 
> We need our leaders to set high standards that the rest of us can follow, not sink to the lowest depths of society.



Well I'm 66 years old and I can count on one hand those politicians that I feel have been truthful, when giving messages on policy and or delivering on those policies.
It's a nice thought expecting politicians to have high standards etc, but just ask yourself, would you become a politician and if not why not.
It is the same with journalists, real estate agents and car sales reps, they are there to sell a product, not be your parent it is up to the buyer to sort out the crap from the truth, Muppets take everything on face value.
Same goes with politicians, their first loyalty is to their family and future, that means staying in the job, same as everyone else.
A lot of the problem is, if the politician isn't agreeing with the media, the media paints the politician in a poor light, this isn't a problem when the average intelligence of the electorate is reasonably high, but the educational standards are dropping which increases the influence the media has. IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well I'm 66 years old and I can count on one hand those politicians that I feel have been truthful, when giving messages on policy and or delivering on those policies.
> It's a nice thought expecting politicians to have high standards etc, but just ask yourself, would you become a politician and if not why not.
> It is the same with journalists, real estate agents and car sales reps, they are there to sell a product, not be your parent it is up to the buyer to sort out the crap from the truth, Muppets take everything on face value.
> Same goes with politicians, their first loyalty is to their family and future, that means staying in the job, same as everyone else.




Sure, so if you are ripped off by a car dealer you don't go back to him right ?

You probably rubbish him on social media to make sure he doesn't rip off others as well.

That's what I mean by not accepting their standards, make them pay if they let us down.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, so if you are ripped off by a car dealer you don't go back to him right ?
> 
> You probably rubbish him on social media to make sure he doesn't rip off others as well.
> 
> That's what I mean by not accepting their standards, make them pay if they let us down.



That's fine as long as your opinion aligns with the narrative.
Take for example the subs fiasco, the media would have everyone believe Australia would be better served by accepting the diesel subs, than cancel the contract in favour of a better product.
Then you have the media blowing up the fact Morrison didn't explicitly tell the French Australia was thinking of cancelling the contract, before they had sealed a deal for another option, how bad would it have looked if the Government had cancelled the French contract then found out they couldn't source subs from the U.S or U.K.
That would have been real smart, I don't think, imagine the field day the media would have had with that.
I mean people really need to engage some grey matter, rather than aimlessly following the media from bad news story to bad news story.
I just hope the media cuts Albo a bit of slack when he gets in, but I doubt it, they will want to destabilise the Government and force a change of leader as usual it's just so predictable.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's fine as long as your opinion aligns with the narrative.
> Take for example the subs fiasco, the media would have everyone believe Australia would be better served by accepting the diesel subs, than cancel the contract in favour of a better product.
> Then you have the media blowing up the fact Morrison didn't explicitly tell the French Australia was thinking of cancelling the contract, before they had sealed a deal for another option, how bad would it have looked if the Government had cancelled the French contract then found out they couldn't source subs from the U.S or U.K.
> That would have been real smart, I don't think, imagine the field day the media would have had with that.
> ...



What about doing it right the first time?
Like ordering a diesel sub from a nuke sub builder 
great idea


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> What about doing it right the first time?
> Like ordering a diesel sub from a nuke sub builder
> great idea



That is spot on IMO, at least that goose got the heave ho, now at least the taxpayer isn't funding the ego trip. He and his new soul mate should start their own w@nk tank IMO.
I mean really ordering fossil fueled subs, then telling everyone you are the greenest thing since kermit the frog, someone really needs a reality check.
But it does go to highlight what i've been saying, the reason that the diesel subs were ordered, would probably have been because of media and public backlash if nukes were announced, so was Australia's best interest served or the political future best served?


----------



## noirua (31 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Can we ever get rid of lies in politics ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These guys do not have low IQs and generally have very good memories and are backed up by lawyers so they know everything.
Nothing was overlooked in the submarine deal and Biden, Morrison, and Johnson were fully aware that they were going to cold shoulder Macron and his out-of-date diesel submarines.

They new that if Macron was told before finalising the nuclear submarine deal he would have done such a giant wobbler they would have had to back down and spend a long time negotiating. Far better to go ahead and America and the UK do well on the nuclear deal. 

Being clever Biden, Morrison, and Johnson, would have left it to other senior people to make sure there was no going back. Let Macron have a big moan after the event. Then Biden can invite Macron over to America allowing him to remind America France backed America against the British in the Independence war. Biden would agree pat him on the back and tell him France is a respected ally who indeed helped them achieve Independence. Having told Morrison and Johnson not to be concerned as I Biden will butter Macron up and tell him to tone down the moaning as France is such a great friend of America.

Basically ' JOB DONE'.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Can we ever get rid of lies in politics ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						Covid rapid antigen tests: suppliers deny pressing PM to abandon commitment to provide free kits
					

Scott Morrison says his decision not to make tests free for most was a response to industry concerns but peak bodies say they did not lobby government




					www.theguardian.com
				




Daily


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

If they were free the suppliers wouldnt be able to keep up, as with everything else if its free it gets abused, the queues in NSW for testing are blocked with people who dont even have symptoms if the health dude on tv can be believed.
But hey as long as the media say something it has to be true, especially the Guardian, reporting on the Libs. Lol


----------



## SirRumpole (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If they were free the suppliers wouldnt be able to keep up, as with everything else if its free it gets abused, the queues in NSW for testing are blocked with people who dont even have symptoms if the health dude on tv can be believed.
> But hey as long as the media say something it has to be true, especially the Guardian, reporting on the Libs. Lol




Agreed, but $10-$15 a pop is unaffordable so they won't get used apart from the wealthy.


----------



## IFocus (31 December 2021)

noirua said:


> These guys do not have low IQs and generally have very good memories and are backed up by lawyers so they know everything.
> Nothing was overlooked in the submarine deal and Biden, Morrison, and Johnson were fully aware that they were going to cold shoulder Macron and his out-of-date diesel submarines.
> 
> They new that if Macron was told before finalising the nuclear submarine deal he would have done such a giant wobbler they would have had to back down and spend a long time negotiating. Far better to go ahead and America and the UK do well on the nuclear deal.
> ...





I don't understand why they could not have completed the deal then talked to the French before going public, or was the politics more important selling it domestically?


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If they were free the suppliers wouldnt be able to keep up, as with everything else if its free it gets abused, the queues in NSW for testing are blocked with people who dont even have symptoms if the health dude on tv can be believed.
> But hey as long as the media say something it has to be true, especially the Guardian, reporting on the Libs. Lol



What an idiotic comment
The vaccine is free tell me about the abuse.....remember toilet paper wasnt free
Blocked with people who were close contacts so they shifted the goal posts you mean


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> I don't understand why they could not have completed the deal then talked to the French before going public, or was the politics more important selling it domestically?



From memory, he stopped in on the way back from the meeting with the US and UK and jad dinner with Macron, where the intent was disclosed.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> What an idiotic comment
> The vaccine is free tell me about the abuse.....remember toilet paper wasnt free
> Blocked with people who were close contacts so they shifted the goal posts you mean



Dont display your ignorance, you have been around the traps, you know if something is free people hoard it.
Or are you saying that wouldnt happen?
The chief medical officer pleaded with people who werent showing syptoms, or a close contact, or having been to designated hot spot, to stop lining up for a test.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Dont display your ignorance, you have been around the traps, you know if something is free people hoard it.
> Or are you saying that wouldnt happen?
> The chief medical officer pleaded with people who werent showing syptoms, or a close contact, or having been to designated hot spot, to stop lining up for a test.



Ok Ill let yours shine









						Free but not a free-for-all: Plan to get 34 million rapid tests to Victorians
					

The government is likely to establish facilities across the state to hand out tests where people will be asked to display basic ID and detail why they require an at-home kit.




					www.theage.com.au
				




Reckon will be the same here


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

People would grab as much as they could and sell them at a later date. Realistically what's the point anyway. I'm pretty certain the government is letting it rip. There are so many people that have Omicron and going out on New Years Eve that it's ridiculous.

The strategy is let it wash through. I think south Africa cases went straight up, then straight down. Obviously the government can either let this linger slowly over two years or be done with it in months.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Dont display your ignorance, you have been around the traps, you know if something is free people hoard it.
> Or are you saying that wouldnt happen?
> The chief medical officer pleaded with people who werent showing syptoms, or a close contact, or having been to designated hot spot, to stop lining up for a test.



22000 +ve  yesterday and they turned how many away in NSW
Where were the 22000 previously.......spreading it


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> People would grab as much as they could and sell them at a later date. Realistically what's the point anyway. I'm pretty certain the government is letting it rip. There are so many people that have Omicron and going out on New Years Eve that it's ridiculous.
> 
> The strategy is let it wash through. I think south Africa cases went straight up, then straight down. Obviously the government can either let this linger slowly over two years or be done with it in months.



The point was always the vunerable and hospitals
Hopefully they know what their doing


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

sorry 21k


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> 22000 +ve  yesterday and they turned how many away in NSW
> Where were the 22000 previously.......spreading it












						NSW Health prioritises COVID testing for 'clinically urgent' cases as state records 11,201 infections
					

NSW Health says it is unlikely people will get their swab results within 72 hours and advised holiday-makers to avoid adding to testing queues to alleviate pressure on pathology labs.




					www.abc.net.au
				




From the article:
The NSW government over the past week has blamed the testing chaos on pathology staff being exhausted, *people getting swabbed unnecessarily* and the Queensland government.


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Hopefully they know what their doing



I'd say   "Does anyone"?

The hospitals have had two years to prepare. This thing is well and truly out of the bag. I'm struggling with keeping up just across people I know that are catching it.
So one way or the other- we are going to find out.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> NSW Health prioritises COVID testing for 'clinically urgent' cases as state records 11,201 infections
> 
> 
> NSW Health says it is unlikely people will get their swab results within 72 hours and advised holiday-makers to avoid adding to testing queues to alleviate pressure on pathology labs.
> ...



Hang on captain this is the mob who were running round maskless a week before xmas with the knowledge of how easily spread omicron was for the sake of the economy
Now their not going out because of sickness and fear


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 134995
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Honestly I'm thinking you could 2x possibly 3x that number at this stage. No one with symptoms is bothering with getting tested because they don't want to isolate.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'd say   "Does anyone"?
> 
> The hospitals have had two years to prepare. This thing is well and truly out of the bag. I'm struggling with keeping up just across people I know that are catching it.
> So one way or the other- we are going to find out.



According to SP peeps are just getting tested for no reason lol


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> According to SP peeps are just getting tested for no reason lol



Unlike you I'm not saying anything, I'm repeating what the the chief medical officer said, at least get you crap straight. 🤣

The only comment I made of my own back, was that if rapid antigen tests were handed out free the authorities wouldn't e able to keep up supply, as people would hoard them for personal use at a later date.
I said it is like anything that is free it gets abused, just do a before and after BMI on yourself, when you do FIFO  and the SPQ food at the mess is free. 









						Pharmacies opposed widespread free tests amid fears ‘worried well’ would overwhelm system
					

The nation’s Pharmacy Guild proposed a “hybrid” model to the government, warning a free-for-all on tests would leave the system swamped by healthy people wanting to stock up.




					www.smh.com.au
				




From the article, to assist the mentally impaired member. 🤣


*The nation’s Pharmacy Guild opposed completely free access to COVID-19 rapid antigen tests*, *lobbying the federal government to subsidise the cost for low-income households but make others pay to stop chemists being overrun.*

Pharmacy Guild of Australia national president Trent Twomey has backed the government’s new self-testing plan, which provides free tests in high-risk settings such as aged care and for close contacts but leaves others buying them from a retailer.

He had proposed a “hybrid” model to the government and warned a free-for-all on tests would leave the system swamped by healthy people wanting to stock up.

“Otherwise we will have the ‘worried well’ taking publicly funded tests away from those who need them,” he said.


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> According to SP peeps are just getting tested for no reason lol



I think the fear of it that's been constant in the media is what's driving it. We were told over and over get tested. 

One of the huge problems for me during this whole ordeal has been the messaging. Especially the health advice. It's been way to mixed and politicised.

A lot of young people just don't care and are going out anyway.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

Pssss      A little secret

The changes to testing is simply because they have no capacity

The changes to isolation are because they are running out of essential workers

Nothing to do with the spread of covid


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Pssss      A little secret
> 
> The changes to testing is simply because they have no capacity
> 
> ...



I think that's partially true.
But there has been an almighty push in nsw to just let this thing go. Everyone I'm talking to has at least 5+minimum people they know with it.

Just the timing of certain decisions looks like we are going to run through this pretty fast.


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I think that's partially true.
> But there has been an almighty push in nsw to just let this thing go. Everyone I'm talking to has at least 5+minimum people they know with it.
> 
> Just the timing of certain decisions looks like we are going to run through this pretty fast.



The timing is all about the optics for politicians not health


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> The timing is all about the optics for politicians not health



The way I look at it is that they can't afford to keep this covid 'isolation' strategy to keep going. Two years and billions of dollars down in revenue. Election year as well for fed. 

That's why I stated a few weeks back they would probably let it rip


----------



## macca (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> The way I look at it is that they can't afford to keep this covid 'isolation' strategy to keep going. Two years and billions of dollars down in revenue. Election year as well for fed.
> 
> That's why I stated a few weeks back they would probably let it rip




The people I know with O said from the start, they are not worried about Covid they are worried about being isolated for NYE

"No way am I getting tested unless they track me down through contact details and I have to" was the message from their friends

All intend to party hard tonight


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

macca said:


> The people I know with O said from the start, they are not worried about Covid they are worried about being isolated for NYE
> 
> "No way am I getting tested unless they track me down through contact details and I have to" was the message from their friends
> 
> All intend to party hard tonight



I'm hearing it from everyone.


----------



## macca (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm hearing it from everyone.




The Super Dooper spreader event is NYE parties all over.

Locked down for a lot of the year, no night clubs or parties, they will rage all night long..................

By the end of January in the cities will be 50% herd immunity, they will all have had O

Not sure if that is good or bad but my neighbour works as security in clubs, I ain't going anywhere near him for a while


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

Its how they stopped the boats.......stopped reporting


----------



## Humid (31 December 2021)

Is why there not free


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> One of the huge problems for me during this whole ordeal has been the messaging. Especially the health advice. It's been way to mixed and politicised.
> 
> A lot of young people just don't care and are going out anyway.



Like other scientific matters, the whole thing's become so politicised that many have simply stopped caring.


----------



## Humid (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Dont display your ignorance, you have been around the traps, you know if something is free people hoard it.
> Or are you saying that wouldnt happen?
> The chief medical officer pleaded with people who werent showing syptoms, or a close contact, or having been to designated hot spot, to stop lining up for a test.



Ignorance anyone









						Twice weekly rapid testing to be available to everyone in England
					

Everyone in England will be able to access free, regular, rapid coronavirus (COVID-19) testing from 9 April, the government has announced.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Ignorance anyone
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well you could make everyone happy by going to the UK to pick up your free test pack.
Actually if you return via central Africa, they are providing free masks, you could pick up some for yourself.








						Saving Lives with Face Masks Made in Post- Conflict Central African Republic
					

In the Central African Republic, where years of prolonged violence and conflict have ravaged the country’s health care system, an innovative approach is saving lives and putting people to work. As the global COVID-19 pandemic bore down on the country, the government made the difficult decision...




					www.worldbank.org
				



All you need then is the free toilet paper and your good to go.

What a dick. Lol $250k a year and still hunting free stuff.


----------



## rederob (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well you could make everyone happy by going to the UK to pick up your free test pack.



Besides the point.
POCT/LFT/RAT have been available since 2020 and could have been used instead of windscreen stickers at border crossings, immediately at airports instead of having PCR tests 3 days beforehand (seriously!), and for all essential workers on a daily basis. In bulk they can be purchased for less than 50cents each (I'm talking tens of millions).  Good quality RAT tests are 99% accurate for picking up infectious cases, which is exactly what PCR tests should be used for instead of determining someone had it a month ago and is no longer infectious but still has to isolate!
And now, all of a sudden, there is a rush for RAT tests, but availability is causing chaos.
Watching Scomo fight with States for almost 2 years shows how pathetic his lack of leadership has been on covid.  Even the last National Cabinet didn't get consensus.  A donkey could not have done a worse job.
But here's the *totally stupidity* of it all.  Instead of Medicare picking up all the PCR testing costs (presently in excess of $4B) it could instead have spent a small fraction of that, tested a lot more people a lot faster, and most likely have had fewer instances of covid border jumping.
So putting aside politics, from a medical and economic perspective RAT would have picked up most infectious cases on the spot, thereby preventing disruptions to commerce and facilitating the immediate isolation of positive cases, which would have further reduced spread potential.
Instead we have had political grandstanding on rollouts, case/test/hospital counts and strong borders.  And that's aside from absolute inconsistencies on definitions, restriction levels. quarantining and isolation arrangements.  
Watching our politics on covid is as funny as a South Park episode.  Covid killed Kenny - now we know.


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

Rob loyal to the end, hope you have a win this time round, its been a long time between drinks. 🤣
I don't think poking your tonque out at Scomo and blowing raspberries is going to cut it for Labor though..


----------



## rederob (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Rob loyal to the end, hope you have a win this time round, its been a long time between drinks. 🤣
> I don't think poking your tonque out at Scomo and blowing raspberries is going to cut it for Labor though..



I don't vote Labor as a matter of course, but am pointing out it's hard to find a cheer squad for the federal effort on covid.
I do find it galling that billions have been spent on PCR testing which is both costly and inefficient while instead playing politics.
Having a brain dead control freak as a leader has put us behind on so many fronts it's embarrassing.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 January 2022)

rederob said:


> I don't vote Labor as a matter of course, but am pointing out it's hard to find a cheer squad for the federal effort on covid.
> I do find it galling that billions have been spent on PCR testing which is both costly and inefficient while instead playing politics.
> Having a brain dead control freak as a leader has put us behind on so many fronts it's embarrassing.




We will never know if Labor would have done any better, but taking the restrictions off so suddenly when there was virus still around has stuffed everything up and nullified any good work that they may have done in the past.

Listening too much to their owners (business) and not enough to the medicos is a sure sign of vested interests overriding public good.


----------



## Humid (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well you could make everyone happy by going to the UK to pick up your free test pack.
> Actually if you return via central Africa, they are providing free masks, you could pick up some for yourself.
> 
> 
> ...



well you said it couldnt be done and it turns out the $hithole you come from is doing it
Probably easier for you to return 10 lb pom lol


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> We will never know if Labor would have done any better, but taking the restrictions off so suddenly when there was virus still around has stuffed everything up and nullified any good work that they may have done in the past.
> 
> Listening too much to their owners (business) and not enough to the medicos is a sure sign of vested interests overriding public good.



I think a lot of it is a case of playing with the hand your dealt, in W.A there really isn't an issue and we could probably stay isolated for ever, I don't think that is the case over East financially they can only do it for so long.
It sounds as though they are going on feedback from Europe, where the omicron is much further advanced than here, it appears that the rate of hospitalisation is far less than with earlier strains of the virus.
I would presume they are working on modelling and have some idea as to the mortality and sickness outcomes expected, when I was in RPH recently they are preparing the old burns wards for covid, they are negative pressure rooms to reduce infection transfer.


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

Humid said:


> well you said it couldnt be done and it turns out the $hithole you come from is doing it
> Probably easier for you to return 10 lb pom lol



Don't be a dick, I didn't say it couldn't be done, I posted that the pharmacutical guild recommended it shouldn't be done.
I will post the article again, maybe get someone to help you read it. 🤣

By the way, have you had the toilet roll attached to you chin yet, to wipe your mouth with? 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...come-families-unemployed-20211231-p59l35.html
From the article:

*The nation’s Pharmacy Guild opposed completely free access to COVID-19 rapid antigen tests, lobbying the federal government to subsidise the cost for low-income households but make others pay to stop chemists being overrun.*


----------



## Humid (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Don't be a dick, I didn't say it couldn't be done, I posted that the pharmacutical guild recommended it shouldn't be done.
> I will post the article again, maybe get someone to help you read it. 🤣
> 
> By the way, have you had the toilet roll attached to you chin yet, to wipe your mouth with?
> ...



Seems to work in the UK 
Do you think they just leave them on the counter and you help yourself
Tell me your hoarding theory


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Seems to work in the UK
> Do you think they just leave them on the counter and you help yourself
> Tell me your hoarding theory



Ring the pharmacy guild and ask them.








						Pharmacy Guild of Australia
					

As a member of the Guild, you not only gain access to important benefits and services from the industry experts, you're also helping to maintain the future of community pharmacy in Australia.




					www.guild.org.au
				




Woolies and Coles had a lot of trouble controlling toilet paper hoarding.
If FIFO require a compulsory test and they are free, it wouldn't take the boys long to have a donga full. 🤣


----------



## rederob (1 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Seems to work in the UK
> Do you think they just leave them on the counter and you help yourself
> Tell me your hoarding theory



I thought they could set up at Bunnings next to the snags.
Lower covid is just the beginning.


----------



## Humid (1 January 2022)

If i was cynical I would think they will magically become free just prior to an election and the Guild will be cheering it on


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

Humid said:


> If i was cynical I would think they will magically become free just prior to an election and the Guild will be cheering it on



With a picture of Scomo giving the thumbs up on the packaging, nothing like a bit of creative pork barreling.


----------



## Humid (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> With a picture of Scomo giving the thumbs up on the packaging, nothing like a bit of creative pork barreling.



Nah he'll have one of them white pharmacist shirts on behind the counter


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Nah he'll have one of them white pharmacist shirts on behind the counter



Asking you if you would like a free prostate check, with that free antigen test, while holding you by the shoulders. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

rederob said:


> I don't vote Labor as a matter of course,



Of course not, you only wrote policy for them for years, so I can understand that you wouldn't vote for them. 

Hopefully they can get back to their roots this time around and things get back to normal, where the blue collar vote for them and the rich vote for the Libs, like it used to be.


----------



## rederob (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Of course not, you only wrote policy for them for years, so I can understand that you wouldn't vote for them.
> 
> Hopefully they can get back to their roots this time around and things get back to normal, where the blue collar vote for them and the rich vote for the Libs, like it used to be.



I wrote policies for both Labor and the Coalition.
Both Labor and the Coalition match each other in mundane policies and cannot see the future nowadays, or at least don't understand what's necessary to get us into it.
Don't know where you have been hiding but the concept of a plausible *blue collar vote* died over 25 years ago.  In case you didn't know way back in 1997 *most blue-collar workers* (63%) earned between $15,000 and $50,000 per annum while only 37% of *employers, managers and professionals* received incomes of the same range.
I think that once more sensible people get into green politics the 2 party system will fall apart.
Bring back Gough I say.
Failing that, Twiggy for President of the Republic!


----------



## moXJO (1 January 2022)

rederob said:


> I wrote policies for both Labor and the Coalition.
> Both Labor and the Coalition match each other in mundane policies and cannot see the future nowadays, or at least don't understand what's necessary to get us into it.
> Don't know where you have been hiding but the concept of a plausible *blue collar vote* died over 25 years ago.  In case you didn't know way back in 1997 *most blue-collar workers* (63%) earned between $15,000 and $50,000 per annum while only 37% of *employers, managers and professionals* received incomes of the same range.
> I think that once more sensible people get into green politics the 2 party system will fall apart.
> ...



You every think of starting your own political party?


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Watching our politics on covid is as funny as a South Park episode.




I think that goes for pretty much anything technical.

Using the word "technical" in a broad sense to mean medical, engineering and indeed anything which comes down to the practical application of science. Politics seems to blunder through at best, drastically fail at worst.

Pandemic. Energy. Water management. Transport infrastructure. Etc. Politics struggles to apply science in all cases, probably because doing so would give everyone from One Nation to the Greens an identical position with nothing to argue about - the best argument I've ever seen for keeping politicians away from technical things.


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

That smurf is why I get disappointed when it is suggested politicians need to get involved, in what is essentially a technical issue, all they do is throw taxpayers money at the aspect which will have the best political outcome not the best technical or financially efficient outcome.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 January 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think that goes for pretty much anything technical.
> 
> Using the word "technical" in a broad sense to mean medical, engineering and indeed anything which comes down to the practical application of science. Politics seems to blunder through at best, drastically fail at worst.
> 
> Pandemic. Energy. Water management. Transport infrastructure. Etc. Politics struggles to apply science in all cases, probably because doing so would give everyone from One Nation to the Greens an identical position with nothing to argue about - the best argument I've ever seen for keeping politicians away from technical things.



The problem is too many lawyers and social workers in Parliament,  not enough scientists and engineers.


----------



## wayneL (1 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The problem is too many lawyers and social workers in Parliament,  not enough scientists and engineers.



Very true, but one must equally guard against a technocracy.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Very true, but one must equally guard against a technocracy.



Agreed although I'll argue that the track record of technocrats is they stuff up far less often than politicians.

Imperfect but if it's one or the other then they tend to get it right far more often than politicians who seem unable to stick to facts.

The trouble with politicians being that they like to leave their mark on things such that, even if something is perfect, they want to change it.


----------



## wayneL (1 January 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed although I'll argue that the track record of technocrats is they stuff up far less often than politicians.
> 
> Imperfect but if it's one or the other then they tend to get it right far more often than politicians who seem unable to stick to facts.
> 
> The trouble with politicians being that they like to leave their mark on things such that, even if something is perfect, they want to change it.



Except if the technocracy is a technical autocracy, such as now... CHO effectively has become a single issue dictatorship, without regard for other technical disciplines, or even other disciplines within their own purview.

In ten years, this time will be viewed with utter disbelief, IMNTBCHO.


----------



## Humid (3 January 2022)

Rapid tests should be 'as affordable as possible', Chemist Warehouse director says as PM refuses to fund free kits
					

Scott Morrison continues to resist pressure to make free rapid antigen tests for COVID-19 widely available, as state testing regimes buckle and rapid tests remain scarce.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Privatised covid testing by stealth
You can get your RA tests from Harvey Norman and since covid removes your sence of taste you could pick up some furniture too.....


----------



## moXJO (5 January 2022)

A lot of outright lying going on in the twittersphere. The politicisation of Omicron is in full swing. Some giant media turds really outdoing themselves.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> A lot of outright lying going on in the twittersphere. The politicisation of Omicron is in full swing. Some giant media turds really outdoing themselves.



Learnt it from Scott Moricron


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

A culture of corruption is engulfing the Morrison government - Pearls and Irritations
					

The Morrison government has corrupted the idea of democratic government itself by undermining of political institutions. This is a repost – first published in March 2021. A culture of corruption is engulfing the Morrison government. It’s not just the endless graft and largesse – the...




					johnmenadue.com
				




How did a political party find so many $hit people?


----------



## moXJO (5 January 2022)

Humid said:


> How did a political party find so many $hit people?



Recruit slightly above Labor standards.


----------



## orr (5 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Recruit slightly above Labor standards



When does that rape trial start for Renolds's staffer Mox??
You know the one: Happened a couple of doors down from 3monkey's Morrisons office. Rumor is there's a bit of a history of behaviour...
Terrible to see that playing out in an election campaign; people might get the _right_ idea...
Furniture Sales Kelly's chief of staff; In disscusion with his lawyers... Bit slow to get the deep cleaners in on that one.
Where's  Doc Smith  of old...'_the stains the stains_'


----------



## moXJO (5 January 2022)

orr said:


> When does that rape trial start for Renolds's staffer Mox??
> You know the one: Happened a couple of doors down from 3monkey's Morrisons office. Rumor is there's a bit of a history of behaviour...
> Terrible to see that playing out in an election campaign; people might get the _right_ idea...
> Furniture Sales Kelly's chief of staff; In disscusion with his lawyers... Bit slow to get the deep cleaners in on that one.
> Where's  Doc Smith  of old...'_the stains the stains_'



When does the rape trial from a previous Labor leader start?

You rusted ons are all the same. I'd burn em all down, happily. The moment a political party starts moving to totalitarian measures is the moment they are dead to me.
Labor has been "me too" all the way through some of the most invasive bills to pass. They are in no way shape or form a credible alternative.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> When does the rape trial from a previous Labor leader start?
> 
> You rusted ons are all the same. I'd burn em all down, happily. The moment a political party starts moving to totalitarian measures is the moment they are dead to me.
> Labor has been "me too" all the way through some of the most invasive bills to pass. They are in no way shape or form a credible alternative.



So you will vote Scummo again and the other local god botherer Domicron


----------



## moXJO (5 January 2022)

Humid said:


> So you will vote Scummo again and the other local god botherer Domicron



Na I won't vote that shtbag in  (haven't voted for them in a while). But in the end it's going to be a wasted vote anyway.  We had independent in before and it was a mess of government.

I'm not seeing any disruptive options that would blow the whole thing up either. Just multiple levels of bland wankerss, all hoping to put their nose in the trough


----------



## moXJO (5 January 2022)

Nsw state I don't want Labor in ever again. I could care less about that one.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Nsw state I don't want Labor in ever again. I could care less about that one.



Fair enough stick with the coruption ya know


----------



## MovingAverage (5 January 2022)

Humid said:


> A culture of corruption is engulfing the Morrison government - Pearls and Irritations
> 
> 
> The Morrison government has corrupted the idea of democratic government itself by undermining of political institutions. This is a repost – first published in March 2021. A culture of corruption is engulfing the Morrison government. It’s not just the endless graft and largesse – the...
> ...



Don't think it's a matter of political parties finding **** people...it is more a case of **** people finding political parties


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

MovingAverage said:


> Don't think it's a matter of political parties finding **** people...it is more a case of **** people finding political parties



And religion preselection.....


----------



## MovingAverage (7 January 2022)

No singing and dancing now for the good folk of NSW....what next no flying kites. The guy just has no clue. It's time Dom Boy renamed the NSW liberal party to the Taliban.


----------



## moXJO (7 January 2022)

MovingAverage said:


> No singing and dancing now for the good folk of NSW....what next no flying kites. The guy just has no clue. It's time Dom Boy renamed the NSW liberal party to the Taliban.
> 
> View attachment 135401



I wonder who's next in line. Dom hasn't got half the stones gladbag did.


----------



## MovingAverage (7 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> I wonder who's next in line. Dom hasn't got half the stones gladbag did.



Agree with you on that--for sure. Wouldn't be surprised if the old bin chicken makes a come back


----------



## Tisme (8 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The problem is too many lawyers and social workers in Parliament,  not enough scientists and engineers.



In the USA, politicians are colloquially referred to as "law makers". I'd suggest that is reason/excuse for the absence of certain trades in parliament.

Scientists and engineers are objective solutions people, lawyers are conflictory who are more about emotional problem creation and the win.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 January 2022)

Tisme said:


> In the USA, politicians are colloquially referred to as "law makers". I'd suggest that is reason/excuse for the absence of certain trades in parliament.
> 
> Scientists and engineers are objective solutions people, lawyers are conflictory who are more about emotional problem creation and the win.




Couldn't have said it better.

The main problem is I think that people of real quality see politics as beneath them and not worthy of scientific problem solving , because they know that muck will be thrown by the other side purely on a political basis  and they don't want to expose themselves or their families to personal attacks.

The only way out that I can see is abolition of the Party system and selection by achievement in previous professions, a meritocracy if you like.

But that is probably decades if not centuries down the track.


----------



## sptrawler (8 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Couldn't have said it better.
> 
> The main problem is I think that people of real quality see politics as beneath them and not worthy of scientific problem solving , because they know that muck will be thrown by the other side purely on a political basis  and they don't want to expose themselves or their families to personal attacks.
> 
> ...



IMO it is a bit like local government, they get bloated with self serving people who run for election to further their own ends, then when the inevitable corruption evolves they are thrown out and an administrator is appointed to sort it out.
When this is achieved, the administrator is removed, elections are called and the process starts again, wash rinse repeat.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> IMO it is a bit like local government, they get bloated with self serving people who run for election to further their own ends, then when the inevitable corruption evolves they are thrown out and an administrator is appointed to sort it out.
> When this is achieved, the administrator is removed, elections are called and the process starts again, wash rinse repeat.



Yes corruption starts at the roots and spreads upwards through the tree.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 January 2022)

It would seem that the Hated Murdoch Press may be abandoning the conservatives ready for the next election.


> As far as coincidences go, this one is an absolute doozy.
> The brother of Administrative Appeals Tribunal president *David Thomas* made a $100,000 donation to the Liberal Party the day before Thomas was appointed to a seven-year term by the Turnbull government.
> 
> A signed document lodged with the Australian Electoral Commission shows *Geoffrey Thomas* made the $100k contribution to the federal Liberal Party on June 27, 2017.
> ...



Have not read it in the Guardian or ABC news yet.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (28 January 2022)

Murdoch will go with whoever public opinion is with, you sell more papers and get better ratings, if you target the majority.
That's why he is still in business, where a lot of other media is getting flipped from owner to owner.


----------



## Humid (28 January 2022)

Is there a way to invest in Royal commissions.......could be a boom industry soon


----------



## mullokintyre (10 February 2022)

One of the Liberal backbenchers has right royally pissed off his colleagues by falling asleep in his office and missed a crucial vote 
Todays OZ


> Liberal MP James Stevens missed a crucial vote on Scott Morrison’s flagship Religious Discrimination Bill because he was asleep in his office.
> 
> According to The Advertiser, the South Australian MP admitted he fell asleep in his office because he thought he was not required for the vote.
> 
> ...



Mere workers get sacked for sleeping on the job.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Murdoch will go with whoever public opinion is with, you sell more papers and get better ratings, if you target the majority.
> That's why he is still in business, where a lot of other media is getting flipped from owner to owner.




Sort of.

He will fight hard for the Conservatives until it's obvious that they are  going to lose, then he'll switch sides and pretend he's the people's friend.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Sort of.
> 
> He will fight hard for the Conservatives until it's obvious that they are  going to lose, then he'll switch sides and pretend he's the people's friend.



Yea, but at least he recognises and acts when he realises he's picked the losing side.
The ABC, the Guardian, getup, crikey , Fairfax/Nine,  all  predicted  and championed a Labor win in the last election and ended up  still being on the losing side.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (11 February 2022)

Murdoch is a globalist, he doesn't give a crap about conservatives.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yea, but at least he recognises and acts when he realises he's picked the losing side.
> The ABC, the Guardian, getup, crikey , Fairfax/Nine,  all  predicted  and championed a Labor win in the last election and ended up  still being on the losing side.
> Mick




Courage of convictions vs hypocrisy.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Courage of convictions vs hypocrisy.



Courage of Convictions, or just plain bias??
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Courage of Convictions, or just plain bias??
> Mick



The Guardian has no beef either way I would have thought , it's not government funded.

The ABC has turned into a minorities first broadcaster, the mainstream is in the background. They have been taken over by feminists and SJWs and are losing credibility imo.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The Guardian has no beef either way I would have thought , it's not government funded.
> 
> The ABC has turned into a minorities first broadcaster, the mainstream is in the background. They have been taken over by feminists and SJWs and are losing credibility imo.



Why does government funding equate with  perceived or real bias?
Organisations  surround themselves with people who think like they do.
You will get the occasional maverick, but in the main the group think is reinforced.
Its the same reason that the murdoch press surrounds themselves with mostly conservative thinkers.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Why does government funding equate with  perceived or real bias?
> *Organisations  surround themselves with people who think like they do.*
> You will get the occasional maverick, but in the main the group think is reinforced.
> Its the same reason that the murdoch press surrounds themselves with mostly conservative thinkers.
> Mick




Well in that case you would think that a Conservative government that has been in for nearly a decade would have moulded the ABC to its own image, by appointing executives that thought like they do.

They appointed one of their own in Mark Scott but it didn't seem to make much difference.


----------



## Humid (11 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Sort of.
> 
> He will fight hard for the Conservatives until it's obvious that they are  going to lose, then he'll switch sides and pretend he's the people's friend.












						Bill Shorten rebuffs Rupert Murdoch on US meeting
					

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten signals he will not meet with Rupert Murdoch, breaking a long tradition of Australian political leaders who have felt compelled to pay court to the media proprietor.




					www.abc.net.au
				



What date was the election....


----------



## mullokintyre (11 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Bill Shorten rebuffs Rupert Murdoch on US meeting
> 
> 
> Opposition Leader Bill Shorten signals he will not meet with Rupert Murdoch, breaking a long tradition of Australian political leaders who have felt compelled to pay court to the media proprietor.
> ...



Which election, that report is three years old.
Mick


----------



## PZ99 (11 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Which election, that report is three years old.
> Mick



I remember it was before the last election. One of the Guardians of the Corporatocracy tried to program Bill Shorten who promptly told him to get stuffed


----------



## Humid (11 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Why does government funding equate with  perceived or real bias?
> Organisations  surround themselves with people who think like they do.
> You will get the occasional maverick, but in the main the group think is reinforced.
> Its the same reason that the murdoch press surrounds themselves with mostly conservative thinkers.
> Mick



Stacking the board full of lib stooges









						Their ABC: How Conservatives Beat Aunty Into Submission  - Situation Theatre
					

The Coalition’s corruption has never been more flagrant, yet the ABC’s ability to hold it to account has never been less potent.Today’s announcement of the    axing of 250 more ABC jobs due to budget cuts    is but the latest tragic, upsetting, and disturbing assault of an abusive government.




					situationtheatre.com


----------



## mullokintyre (11 February 2022)

Gladys did not muck around in getting a nice high paying job in the private sector after her  unfortunate departure from NSW Politics.
From OPTUS


> Optus announces the appointment of Ms Gladys Berejiklian to the newly created role of Managing Director, Enterprise, Business and Institutional to lift its focus on unlocking a greater share of the multi-billion-dollar enterprise, business, and institutional markets.
> 
> In announcing the appointment, *Optus CEO Kelly Bayer Rosmarin* commented that:
> 
> ...



I thought there was some rule about pollies not aking private sector jobs until a 12 months had passed since their demise..
No wonder she declined a job offer from Scomo.
This one pays a lot more, is less stressful, she won't have people prying into her love life, and there is every possibility it will last a little longer.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Gladys did not muck around in getting a nice high paying job in the private sector after her  unfortunate departure from NSW Politics.
> From OPTUS
> 
> I thought there was some rule about pollies not aking private sector jobs until a 12 months had passed since their demise..
> ...




Sounds like a bs job to me.


----------



## macca (11 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds like a bs job to me.




Yes, but seems the norm these days, Julia Gillard, Bob Carr and quite a few on the Libs have all got cushy jobs soon after.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2022)

macca said:


> Yes, but seems the norm these days, Julia Gillard, Bob Carr and quite a few on the Libs have all got cushy jobs soon after.




It seems a bit 'courageous' of Optus to give her a job before the Commission releases it's report.

An adverse finding for Gladys could be embarrassing for Optus.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems a bit 'courageous' of Optus to give her a job before the Commission releases it's report.
> 
> An adverse finding for Gladys could be embarrassing for Optus.



Optus is basically a Chinese owned firm these days.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Optus is basically a Chinese owned firm these days.




Ahh, so doing favours for mates then ?    

Wait till Labor get on to that.


----------



## Boggo (11 February 2022)

Copied from that facey thingy ​
THE STORY OF THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER​ 
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long,  building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper  thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come  winter, the ant is warm and well fed.


The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and  demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while  others less fortunate like him are cold and starving. The ABC and Channel 9  show up to provide live coverage of the shivering grasshopper, with cuts to a  video of the ant in his comfortable warm home with a table filled with food.


Australians are stunned that in a country of such wealth,  this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so while others have plenty. The  Democrats, the Greens and the Coalition Against Poverty demonstrate in front of  the ant's house.


The ABC, interrupting an Aboriginal cultural festival  special from North Queensland with breaking news, broadcasts them singing  "We Shall Overcome".


The Green's rant that the ant has gotten rich off the backs  of grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay  his "fair share".


In response to polls, the Liberal Government drafts the  Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti-Discrimination Act, retrospective to the  beginning of the summer. It is quickly passed in to law.


The ant's taxes are reassessed and he is also fined for  failing to hire grass hoppers as helpers. Without enough money to pay both the  fine and his newly imposed retrospective taxes, his home is confiscated by the  government.


The ant moves to Bali, and starts a successful restaurant.


The TV stations later show the now fat grasshopper finishing  up the last of the ant's food though Spring is still months away, while the  government owned house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house  crumbles around him because he hadn't maintained it.


Inadequate government funding is blamed, Kevin Rudd is  appointed to head a special inquiry that will cost $10,000,000. The grasshopper  is soon dead of a drug overdose, the Sydney Morning Herald blames it on obvious  failure of government to address the root causes of despair arising from social  inequity.


The abandoned house is taken over by a gang of immigrant  spiders, praised by the government for enriching Australia's multicultural  diversity, who promptly terrorise the community.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Optus is basically a Chinese owned firm these days.




Actually it's owned by Singtel, the Singaporean telecom, which is owned by the Singapore government.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Actually it's owned by Singtel, the Singaporean telecom, which is owned by the Singapore government.



I used to own this company as Singtel and from memory Singapore mostly sold it to China and took it off the ASX. Have you got any info? Interested. I could look over the old thread.


----------



## Humid (12 February 2022)

Well Gladys saved you and now ....


----------



## Knobby22 (12 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Well Gladys saved you and now ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He is obviously a legend and the best Australian leader since Menzies, Humid and I don't want to see you making any insinuations to the contrary.


----------



## Humid (12 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> He is obviously a legend and the best Australian leader since Menzies, Humid and I don't want to see you making any insinuations to the contrary.



Still cleaning up the breakfast I spat out laughing


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I used to own this company as Singtel and from memory Singapore mostly sold it to China and took it off the ASX. Have you got any info? Interested. I could look over the old thread.



I'm only going by Wikipedia which says..

_Si*ngtel controls significant market share in Australia and Singapore, with 82% of the fixed-line market, 47% of the mobile market and 43% of the broadband market in Singapore.[9] Singtel is also the second-largest company by market capitalisation listed on the Singapore Exchange[10] and is majority owned by Temasek Holdings, the investment arm of the Singapore government. Singtel is an active investor in innovation companies through its Singtel Innov8 subsidiary, founded in 2011 with S$200 million start up capital.*









						Singtel - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



_


----------



## moXJO (12 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Well Gladys saved you and now ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Knobby22 said:


> He is obviously a legend and the best Australian leader since Menzies, Humid and I don't want to see you making any insinuations to the contrary.




You guys are just jealous your dictators can't make it onto the telegraph as the bestest ever.

Also, why are you buying the daily telegraph?


----------



## Humid (12 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> You guys are just jealous your dictators can't make it onto the telegraph as the bestest ever.
> 
> Also, why are you buying the daily telegraph?



Buying?


----------



## Knobby22 (12 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm only going by Wikipedia which says..
> 
> _Si*ngtel controls significant market share in Australia and Singapore, with 82% of the fixed-line market, 47% of the mobile market and 43% of the broadband market in Singapore.[9] Singtel is also the second-largest company by market capitalisation listed on the Singapore Exchange[10] and is majority owned by Temasek Holdings, the investment arm of the Singapore government. Singtel is an active investor in innovation companies through its Singtel Innov8 subsidiary, founded in 2011 with S$200 million start up capital.*
> 
> ...



Thanks Rumpy.
Racking my brains as to how I got this so wrong. Maybe it was another company.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> You guys are just jealous your dictators can't make it onto the telegraph as the bestest ever.
> 
> Also, why are you buying the daily telegraph?



I would if they sold it in Victoria. I much prefer its sunny disposition.
The Herald Sun is always negative on its front page.


----------



## wayneL (12 February 2022)

Canberra today





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Canberra today
> 
> View attachment 137424
> View attachment 137425



10-15 thousand. Not bad.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Canberra today
> 
> View attachment 137424
> View attachment 137425




As some have pointed out, the demos should be in Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney because it's the States that put in the restrictions.

But if the Right want to blame SloMo, that's fine by me.


----------



## moXJO (12 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> As some have pointed out, the demos should be in Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney because it's the States that put in the restrictions.
> 
> But if the Right want to blame SloMo, that's fine by me.



The vaccine updates were provided by scomo I think


----------



## Investoradam (12 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> As some have pointed out, the demos should be in Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney because it's the States that put in the restrictions.
> 
> But if the Right want to blame SloMo, that's fine by me.



Funny how you call the working class and freedom fighters the right!
I mean mean isn’t that meant to be the left?


----------



## Investoradam (12 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> The vaccine updates were provided by scomo I think



You’ll find it’s more about the mandates and vaccination passports!
Not the jabs it self


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Funny how you call the working class and freedom fighters the right!
> I mean mean isn’t that meant to be the left?




Does anyone know who the protestors really are ?

They could be a mix of genuine people, Left Wing agitators, Right Wing agitators , 'sovereign citizens' , anarchists and any other anti authority group you can think of.

No one can say they are one thing or another.


----------



## moXJO (12 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> You’ll find it’s more about the mandates and vaccination passports!
> Not the jabs it self



That's what I was referring to. I believe the update status shows if you  are now 'overdue' for boosters. I think if the country gets to 50-60% boosters they will most likely drop all covid measures.

Unless those d1ckweeds from Labor get in on majority. No telling what those flogs will do.


----------



## Humid (12 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> You’ll find it’s more about the mandates and vaccination passports!
> Not the jabs it self



Bollocks


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> That's what I was referring to. I believe the update status shows if you  are now 'overdue' for boosters. I think if the country gets to 50-60% boosters they will most likely drop all covid measures.
> 
> Unless those d1ckweeds from Labor get in on majority. No telling what those flogs will do.




There goes any perception of even handedness that I may have had about you.


----------



## Humid (12 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There goes any perception of even handedness that I may have had about you.



Yeah they vote Libs and can't seem to own the cluster they chose so choose to project the alternative
Every last one of them on here do the same thing


----------



## basilio (12 February 2022)

*  Protesters wishing there was some way in near future they could have say in who runs government* 






As the Convoy to Canberra protests entered their second week, organisers were starting to wish there was some sort of mechanism available to them, preferably in the next few months, that would enable them to have their say on who leads the country.

Keith Collins, who travelled from Queensland to be part of the protests, said he’d had enough. “Day after day we come here calling for a change in government. But no-one’s listening. What we need is some sort of national poll – a nation-wide vote for example – where we could say ‘ok, who do Australians want in charge here?’ But it’ll never happen”.                                                                              

He said he’d given the idea a fair bit of thought. “I’d be pretty easy to organise. You’d just get bits of paper printed out with the different options, and then get people to make their choice, then put all the bits of paper in a big box and count them up”.

Collins said the idea was gaining traction on 4chan. “I posted my thoughts on there last week and a lot of people reckon it’s a brilliant idea – can’t believe no-one’s thought of it before. But of course there’s no way the government would allow it to happen”.

Nancy Teragal, who joined the protests last week, said the idea had merit. “You could run the votes in town halls … or even in primary schools”.

“Set up a barbeque to make it a bit of fun,” Collins added.

“But it’ll never happen. Not in a million years,” Teragal said, returning to the protest.









						Protesters wishing there was some way in near future they could have say in who runs government
					

"A nation-wide ballot, for example"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2022)

basilio said:


> *  Protesters wishing there was some way in near future they could have say in who runs government*
> 
> 
> View attachment 137444
> ...




Sounds a great idea but it will never work. Better that we all keep protesting, get drunk and start planning next weeks protest over the barby.


----------



## sptrawler (12 February 2022)

Too much money, too much time on their hands.🤣
There is a shortage of workers in the bush and these people want to stand around, if they arent gay they should be moved on.🤭


----------



## moXJO (13 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There goes any perception of even handedness that I may have had about you.



When did I ever say I liked Labor?
I've specifically said they are just as bad if not worse than libs consistently.


----------



## moXJO (13 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Yeah they vote Libs and can't seem to own the cluster they chose so choose to project the alternative
> Every last one of them on here do the same thing



Well all you had to do was vote Labor last time. But apparently 'assuming you vote Labor' is a 'micro-aggression'.

I'll vote those that put peoples rights first.
Unfortunately you lot seem too dumb to realise that Labor was happily voting along with the liberals on intrusive policies for years. And Labor premiers are a real great shining light on what to expect.

Unfortunately it's not exactly a choice of terrible vs potential at the moment.
More like which pile of sht will least stink up the room. I'm also worried his supreme flogtard Dutton will get in control.

Buy yeah talk up Labor while you're hard bordered in WA being used as a pincushion and drinking "manbun" brewed beer.


----------



## Humid (13 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Well all you had to do was vote Labor last time. But apparently 'assuming you vote Labor' is a 'micro-aggression'.
> 
> I'll vote those that put peoples rights first.
> Unfortunately you lot seem too dumb to realise that Labor was happily voting along with the liberals on intrusive policies for years. And Labor premiers are a real great shining light on what to expect.
> ...



Cheers.....Least the pubs are void of any waynos


----------



## Humid (13 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Well all you had to do was vote Labor last time. But apparently 'assuming you vote Labor' is a 'micro-aggression'.
> 
> I'll vote those that put peoples rights first.
> Unfortunately you lot seem too dumb to realise that Labor was happily voting along with the liberals on intrusive policies for years. And Labor premiers are a real great shining light on what to expect.
> ...



So where have you been now that you have been freed by the messiah?


----------



## Humid (13 February 2022)

Humid said:


> So where have you been now that you have been freed by the messiah?



Canberra ?


----------



## basilio (13 February 2022)

It is very nasty on the net. And it has consequences.









						In media, politics and science, online abusers are targeting vital voices with catastrophic consequences
					

There are growing concerns online abuse is shutting down crucial conversations and pushing out voices, and ultimately threatening the health of Australia's democracy.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## macca (13 February 2022)

basilio said:


> It is very nasty on the net. And it has consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I do think that we need stronger laws for the anonomous trolls who attack people at random, Not only famous folk but many teenagers suffer greatly with these attacks.

But we are also blocking free speech and open discussion in the MSM

At present the ABC and other MSM censor well credentialled people who just happen to have a different viewpoint to the "wokers".

Debate is silenced all the time on panels on the ABC, people from "the right" are cat called or cut off by the moderator and left wing radicals can call for arson and murder and still be allowed to speak.

Surely that is more damaging for democracy


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2022)

macca said:


> I do think that we need stronger laws for the anonomous trolls who attack people at random, Not only famous folk but many teenagers suffer greatly with these attacks.
> 
> But we are also blocking free speech and open discussion in the MSM
> 
> ...



Yes indeed , have a look at their Facebook pages sometime.

Limiting who can comment on posts ? Obviously I can't because I'm obviously some sort of terrorist.

Stopping all from posting because a few might say something nasty ? That's just nanny state nonsense.


----------



## wayneL (13 February 2022)

Another week rent free in @Humid 's head


----------



## Investoradam (13 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> That's what I was referring to. I believe the update status shows if you  are now 'overdue' for boosters. I think if the country gets to 50-60% boosters they will most likely drop all covid measures.
> 
> Unless those d1ckweeds from Labor get in on majority. No telling what those flogs will do.



and the goal posts will be shifted again. by the instructiuons of the over lauds directing our gutless positions


----------



## moXJO (13 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> and the goal posts will be shifted again. by the instructiuons of the over lauds directing our gutless positions



I think they will reconsider. 
Once boosters hit a certain % for those at risk ages, most rules will be dropped. Governments will be looking at the mess in Canada with fear. 
I don't believe they would be stupid enough to mandate the vax. Although the public service is often living in some kind of 'dumb bubble'.


----------



## sptrawler (14 February 2022)

The thing I see being undermined, is christianity and I'm an atheist.
But when you think about it, christianity underpins the Western countries.
Nothing like watching it implode.lol


----------



## wayneL (14 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I think they will reconsider.
> Once boosters hit a certain % for those at risk ages, most rules will be dropped. Governments will be looking at the mess in Canada with fear.
> I don't believe they would be stupid enough to mandate the vax. Although the public service is often living in some kind of 'dumb bubble'.



Perhaps in the Eastern States. 

The huddled and terrified masses here in WA still see McClown as some sort of Messiah.

Just look at the likes of @Humid  who are happy to acquiesce to the WAGestapo for a crappy overpriced beer in some sh¹tty pub full of boguns.

All for a cold.

Meanwhile, had a lovely weekend with fellow purebloods out at my place in the Swan Valley. Had the pizza oven going and did our best to work through the remains of the 14 pallets of Guinness and half decent woobla I bought.

Much nicer a party with friends than a pub full of terrified and sanctimonious w@nkers


----------



## Investoradam (14 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I think they will reconsider.
> Once boosters hit a certain % for those at risk ages, most rules will be dropped. Governments will be looking at the mess in Canada with fear.
> I don't believe they would be stupid enough to mandate the vax. Although the public service is often living in some kind of 'dumb bubble'.



you mean once the majority catch on the boosters are nothing more thsn a money making scheme?








						Breaking! England Ends All COVID Passports, Mask Mandates, Work Restrictions
					

Note by Algora: As the UK goes so goes the US, and as the US goes so goes the rest of the West. This signals the official end of the Scamdemic. By Lily Zhou of the Epoch Times Restrictions includin…




					www.algora.com
				




the public service live in a leftist bubble along with corporate
there you have the working class waking up and small business  protesting against the mandates and lock downs whom are protesting the issues of totalitarian governments & large multinational ! you know the issues the left are supposedly mean to do!
yet you have the idiot idiot left branding them the far right.

go figure
the evolution of a dumbed down society!
as lenin put it "useful idiot"
there is a reason why leftism has never worked


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Perhaps in the Eastern States.
> 
> The huddled and terrified masses here in WA still see McClown as some sort of Messiah.
> 
> ...



Are you and your family vaccinated  Wayne ?


----------



## wayneL (14 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you and your family vaccinated  Wayne ?



Yes, we've had the TB, Cholera, Smallpox, Tetanus, Yellow fever, measles and probably some others I can't remember.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yes, we've had the TB, Cholera, Smallpox, Tetanus, Yellow fever, measles and probably some others I can't remember.




Not covid vaxed ?

 I just wonder why you are making so much fuss about covid vax when you accept the others without complaint.


----------



## wayneL (14 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not covid vaxed ?
> 
> I just wonder why you are making so much fuss about covid vax when you accept the others without complaint.



It's not the shot (don't care either way), it's the both the mandates and the otherising of people who have decided to see how the shot plays out longer term... You know, like all those other vaccines had to do.


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you and your family vaccinated  Wayne ?











						WA bottle shop worker ‘PUNCHED IN FACE’ over vax mandate
					

A bottle shop staff member in Perth’s northern suburbs was punched in the face on Saturday night after asking a customer for his proof of vaccination certificate.




					www.perthnow.com.au


----------



## Investoradam (14 February 2022)

nothing to see here!
Labor and it’s band of self righteous followers the first to throw stones despite doings the same as they accuse others of


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> View attachment 137502
> 
> nothing to see here!
> Labor and it’s band of self righteous followers the first to throw stones despite doings the same as they accuse others of



Ummm independent


----------



## orr (14 February 2022)

Humid; I was keen to get onto InvestorAdsy about his view of the political economy through the lens of Prof Von Hayek... but it appears Adsy's picked up a copy of 'The Road to the Asylum' instead .... I can only hope he makes it.


----------



## Macquack (14 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not covid vaxed ?
> 
> I just wonder why you are making so much fuss about covid vax when you accept the others without complaint.



I suspect it is because he is special.


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)

Macquack said:


> I suspect it is because he is special.



Small man syndrome


----------



## wayneL (14 February 2022)

Macquack said:


> I suspect it is because he is special.



How long have you been out of kindergarten?

Explained several times, Komrade.


----------



## IFocus (14 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> How long have you been out of kindergarten?
> 
> Explained several times, Komrade.




Well you do keep going on about it just let it go move on...


----------



## sptrawler (15 February 2022)

Really do you guys ever think Wayne never told you or I to have a vaccine, we have so we are safe, why keep trolling him for his choice not to.
He makes his choices, we make ours, so be it.

Ive got a deaf daughter having serious health issues, because of mask mandates, people wont pull down their masks so she can lipread, they abuse her for asking.
She comes home has a meltdown because she doesnt have a clue what anyone is saying.
Now she is on anti anxiety medication, why she just doesnt go onto disability amazes me, the $hitheads she has to deal with are on welfare.
Australia heading around the bend.lol


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Really do you guys ever think Wayne never told you or I to have a vaccine, we have so we are safe, why keep trolling him for his choice not to.
> He makes his choices, we make ours, so be it.
> 
> Ive got a deaf daughter having serious health issues, because of mask mandates, people wont pull down their masks so she can lipread, they abuse her for asking.
> ...



The 'leftist crew' like to pis5 their pants over people not conforming.

Yet another example of the "one of us" mantra pushing.


----------



## Humid (15 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> The 'leftist crew' like to pis5 their pants over people not conforming.
> 
> Yet another example of the "one of us" mantra pushing.



From the two blokes who conformed


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2022)

Humid said:


> From the two blokes who conformed



To awesomeness....


----------



## mullokintyre (15 February 2022)

I know that many people on AF regard the Murdoch press as the spawn of the devil, but one of the reasons why I read the Austraian is that they give politicians or ex politicians a chance to write something from their perspective. In recent times we have had Stephen Looseley Anthony Albanese, Kristine  Keneally and Bob Carr, as well as Friedenberg, Tony Abbott , Dutton, and a few others I did not bother to read.
Today, its the turn of Adam Bandt, leader of the greens.  There was nothing surprising in his article, but i am sure it would comfort to green supporters.
in an unfortunate juxtaposition, a separate article shows that support for the Greens has fallen to 8%.







Whether these poll figures bear any resemblance to reality is a moot point, but its the only  figures we have currently.
I was a little surprised at this, as I thought that with their commitment to zero emissions etc, they would have garnered more support, given that according to some, climate change is an existential threat to humanity.
Also surprising was a fall from a high of 8% in 2018 to barely 4% today for  One Nation. I thought that with the consistent polarisation of the nation, they would have picked up more  of the far right wing folks.
Not surprisingly  there was a sharp increase in the "other groupings", which include the actual parties like Animal Justice, Lib dems, Clive Palmer etc as well as the "independents".
So it would seem that in 2019,  5 percentage points or so leaked from Labour to the greens, since then most of that greens  swing has leaked back to Labour.
At about the same time, the independent groups polling collapsed and seems to have shifted to mostly the Coalition, and a small bit to one nation. 
Looking at the chart, it would appear  that none of these  "other" deserters shifted to labour.
This may have some ramifications come election time when the allocation of preferences comes into play. If so many Greens votes have shifted to Labour, they may not get the preference flow as big as usual (assuming they need it).
Conversely, the preference to the coalition may be larger than in the past , and they will certainly need it.
As usual, these charts are useless when it comes to looking at crucial  closey fought individual seats, which is where the battle will be won or lost.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I know that many people on AF regard the Murdoch press as the spawn of the devil, but one of the reasons why I read the Austraian is that they give politicians or ex politicians a chance to write something from their perspective. In recent times we have had Stephen Looseley Anthony Albanese, Kristine  Keneally and Bob Carr, as well as Friedenberg, Tony Abbott , Dutton, and a few others I did not bother to read.
> Today, its the turn of Adam Bandt, leader of the greens.  There was nothing surprising in his article, but i am sure it would comfort to green supporters.
> in an unfortunate juxtaposition, a separate article shows that support for the Greens has fallen to 8%.
> 
> ...



I wonder if the Democrats/Republicans started off like this?
Is this the start of the same thing here. I'm actually surprised by the above. 

In the US you seem to either be a Democrat or Republican and nothing in-between. 

Early days though. 
Social media will probably win it and Labor feels like it's winning on there. A lot of young adults being indoctrinated on there. Good marketing imo.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 February 2022)

I think we are more discerning in Australia and everyone votes and we know we can direct preferences.
The Greens are blockers. I am not surprised they are losing votes.


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I think we are more discerning in Australia and everyone votes and we know we can direct preferences.
> The Greens are blockers. I am not surprised they are losing votes.



I'd say you are probably smarter then the average voter. Most don't know anything about anything.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I'd say you are probably smarter then the average voter. Most don't know anything about anything.



Your in Adelaide aren't you. SA voters seem really switched on, throwing up all sorts.


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Your in Adelaide aren't you. SA voters seem really switched on, throwing up all sorts.



Na nsw. Where dumb meets arrogant


----------



## orr (15 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I know that many people on AF regard the Murdoch press as the spawn of the devil, but one of the reasons why I read the Austraian is that they give



I wouldn't be to worried about a few pissants in the hive of Trotsyists that infest the pg's of this forum. 
but maybe... maybe these?
What's Lachlan's brothers name ? illudes me for the moment, you know the one; fronted up to the Levinson inquiery into phone hacking with dear old pop... bit more intigrated into the 'goings on' ... And has had a bit to say about 'da firm' since...
And those dastardly accusers of Roger Ailes...'_hussies_'
Ever heard of a bloke named Bob Fisk? Mulligan... got a lovely little anicdote by Bob on Piers Ackamann; only covering up the deaths of forty odd school girls.... didn't suit the days narative.
Ahh the soothing embrace of '_the Catholic Boy's Daily_' ....





mullokintyre said:


> politicians or ex politicians a chance to write something from their perspective.



Who's should they write it from?
You may not have noticed Mulligan but the Deputy Premier and Premier of NSW have both recently resigned... I wonder how much we'll here from them? 
got bit of long form 'YouTube' journalism that went to the core of their downfall, all un-reported by NewsCorp on those two.... 
Ahh with Murdoch it's so much easier just not to know....

_'Most people would rather die than think ....and most do_' Bertrand Russell.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I know that many people on AF regard the Murdoch press as the spawn of the devil, but one of the reasons why I read the Austraian is that they give politicians or ex politicians a chance to write something from their perspective.




I doubt if many politicians write what they really believe.

Instead they write what they think is politically acceptable.

Very cynical I know, but is any pollie going to write that taxes need to be increased if they really believe it ?

The media and the voters would crucify them.


----------



## wayneL (15 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if many politicians write what they really believe.
> 
> Instead they write what they think is politically acceptable.
> 
> ...



It is this which gives me some sympathy with the views of Michael Malice.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I know that many people on AF regard the Murdoch press as the spawn of the devil, but one of the reasons why I read the Austraian is that they give politicians or ex politicians a chance to write something from their perspective. In recent times we have had Stephen Looseley Anthony Albanese, Kristine  Keneally and Bob Carr, as well as Friedenberg, Tony Abbott , Dutton, and a few others I did not bother to read.
> Today, its the turn of Adam Bandt, leader of the greens.  There was nothing surprising in his article, but i am sure it would comfort to green supporters.
> in an unfortunate juxtaposition, a separate article shows that support for the Greens has fallen to 8%.
> 
> ...



And you wonder Why?


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2022)

Humid said:


> And you wonder Why?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You seem to really give a $hit, for someone who doesn't vote, maybe register to give Albo a hand.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> You seem to really give a $hit, for someone who doesn't vote, maybe register to give Albo a hand.



Well if it comes down to one vote.....it's my fault


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Well if it comes down to one vote.....it's my fault



Obviously yes, if you didn't vote.
What surprised me more, was you posting up Murdoch news, it is written to a much higher level than you reading skill set. 🤣
The coloured pictures must have caught your attention.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Obviously yes, if you didn't vote.
> What surprised me more, was you posting up Murdoch news, it is written to a much higher level than you reading skill set. 🤣
> The coloured pictures must have caught your attention.



You've missed the point that you idiots think it's news is the problem


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2022)

Humid said:


> You've missed the point that you idiots think it's news is the problem



People miss the point, because you don't explain your point. 
You seem to be the only one, that thinks you are clever and you think everyone else is an idiot.
It's kind of self explanatory.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)




----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

Not Ozzie politics, but so very pertinent for us.

Why Corporal Bulford resigned from his position of personal security of Trudeau.


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Obviously yes, if you didn't vote.
> What surprised me more, was you posting up Murdoch news, it is written to a much higher level than you reading skill set. 🤣
> The coloured pictures must have caught your attention.



Here's some abc news then









						How top cop Mick Fuller's racehorse co-owner 'Chicken Dave' won a $3m contract with NSW Police
					

An ABC investigation reveals former NSW top cop Mick Fuller did not declare shares in racehorses with sporting identities and wealthy businessmen, raising concerns he breached anti-corruption rules.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Here's some abc news then
> 
> 
> 
> ...



NSW, hasn't it always had corruption issues, the ABC headline is typically misleading, TOP COP, really should have been former top cop it doesn't say that until you read the article. Pretty average reporting as usual IMO.
The current top cop is probably a bit pizzed understandably, if I was him, I would be asking for a formal apology.
Didn't some for political guy Obeid hit the news over there? but where there is money or power, there is corruption, it goes with the territory.








						Disgraced former Labor minister Eddie Obeid enters prison to begin sentence over coal mine conspiracy
					

Former NSW Labor minister Eddie Obeid has entered a Sydney jail after a judge dismissed his application for permanent bail made on COVID-19 grounds.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Then you usually find they put the fox in charge of the hen house and wonder why things go pear shaped eg former top cop.
I mean where does it all end? 🤣 








						‘Broken down irretrievably’: Qld anti-corruption boss quits
					

Alan MacSporran indicated the relationship with his Parliamentary overseers had collapsed and said he would step down as chairman of the Crime and Corruption Commission.




					www.afr.com


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> NSW, hasn't it always had corruption issues, the ABC headline is typically misleading, TOP COP, really should have been former top cop it doesn't say that until you read the article. Pretty average reporting as usual IMO.
> The current top cop is probably a bit pizzed understandably, if I was him, I would be asking for a formal apology.
> Didn't some for political guy Obeid hit the news over there? but where there is money or power, there is corruption, it goes with the territory.
> Then you usually find the fox in charge of the hen house gets corrupted eg former top cop.



Can't be to misleading if you figured it out
nice try at deflecting


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Can't be to misleading if you figured it out
> nice try at deflecting



It's not called deflecting, it's called highlighting, as I've already tried to explain to you in another thread, nothing is one dimensional.
Look at issues from all angles and you find there are flaws in all systems especially proceedural issues, because corrupt  people will always try to find ways to exploit their position.
The issue you have trouble with, is that you think corruption or bad behaviour is isolated to one side of politics, when in fact it isn't isolated at all wherever people with low moral standards get into a position of power they tend to abuse that power, be that the police force, political position or even in a football club.
And by the way, I'm obviously not the one who has trouble figuring things out, as is no doubt shown by our replies.


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It's not called deflecting, it's called highlighting, as I've already tried to explain to you in another thread, nothing is one dimensional.
> Look at issues from all angles and you find there are flaws in all systems especially proceedural issues, because corrupt  people will always try to find ways to exploit their position.
> The issue you have trouble with, is that you think corruption or bad behaviour is isolated to one side of politics, when in fact it isn't isolated at all wherever people with low moral standards get into a position of power they tend to abuse that power, be that the police force, political position or even in a football club.
> And by the way, I'm obviously not the one who has trouble figuring things out, as is no doubt shown by our replies.



So we have the Premier,the deputy Premier and the top cop how many more angles do I need to look at?


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> So we have the Premier,the deputy Premier and the top cop how many more angles do I need to look at?



I've already told you, where ever there is a position of power or money, there will be someone of low moral standard trying to get the job to exploit it.
It can't be simpler than that.
Which State are you talking about Victoria, NSW or Queensland, they all seem to be in the papers for some form of corruption or other.
As I've said previously, I judge on performance and projected outcomes, not on which party my father voted for.


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I've already told you, where ever there is a position of power or money, there will be someone of low moral standard trying to get the job to exploit it.
> It can't be simpler than that.
> Which State are you talking about Victoria, NSW or Queensland, they all seem to be in the papers for some form of corruption or other.
> As I've said previously, I judge on performance and projected outcomes, not on which party my father voted for.



Probably the state that the top cop was from ffs


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Probably the state that the top cop was from ffs



Is that the person who is the  top cop now, or are you talking about a person who used to be a top cop?
FFS be accurate, your not writing for the SMH now. 🤣
Try and focus on one thread, the power thread is way above your pay grade, stick to this sort of cheap mudslinging thread. 👍 
It will improve the quality of your postings.









						Queensland’s ex-top cop blasts corruption watchdog over claims of discrimination against men
					

Ian Stewart says a parliamentary inquiry is needed after the state’s human rights commissioner queries the CCC’s findings




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Cop hit with 87 corruption charges
					

A veteran Victoria Police officer has been slapped with almost 90 criminal charges after an internal anti-corruption investigation uncovered potential wrongdoing.




					www.news.com.au
				












						Underbelly cop found guilty of crime
					

A senior Victorian police officer who was the basis for a hero character on the TV show Underbelly has been found guilty of three charges.




					www.perthnow.com.au
				




IBAC calls for law change after top cop misused position​An IBAC investigation has flagged failings within Victoria Police after a former top cop misused his position to get details about an alleged crime.


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Interesting article, stepping on very thin ice:








						It’s time to return to Costello economics, whoever wins the federal election
					

Rising prices for fuel and groceries, rising mortgage interest rates ... voters are starting to realise a direct link between the huge hole in the federal budget and the holes in their pockets.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Being the treasurer of Australia isn’t easy. Voters only give you a pass mark if you succeed in two very different tasks at the same time. They expect you to prudently balance the federal budget, but they also want you to help balance their own household budget with tax cuts and generous family payments.
This is much easier said than done because balancing the federal budget means keeping revenue high and spending low, while supporting family budgets often requires the exact opposite: tax cuts and higher spending.


----------



## PZ99 (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting article, stepping on very thin ice:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That article also highlights the issue of rising inflation.

We all know the Govt can't stop interest rate rises but if prices go out of control it might want to revisit raising the superannuation guarantee instead. ALP previously wanted this. Employers merely subtract a higher % off incomes but interest rates stay low which is good for investment


----------



## wayneL (18 February 2022)

Why your vote is never splitting or wasted in our system. C'mon peeps, let's keep the bastards honest.


----------



## basilio (18 February 2022)

*Just Nailed It.*

*China responds to claims of partisan meddling in Australia, saying it didn’t realise there was a difference between Labor and Liberal           * 








The Chinese Government has sought to clear up a misunderstanding about its interference in the upcoming Australian election, saying it didn’t support Labor over the Coalition, having always assumed it was the same entity.

“We thought it was just a different word you used for the same thing,” a spokesperson for the Chinese Government said today. “Sometimes you call it Liberal, sometimes you call it Labor. It’s all just one and the same right?”                                                                                                          
He said political parties were often referred to by two different names. “Like the Conservatives in Britain are sometimes called the ‘Tories’. The Republicans in America are called the ‘GOP’. One Nation in Australia are sometimes just referred to as ‘racists’. We thought it was something like that”.

He said analysts in China were surprised to learn they were different entities. “We’ve studied it a lot and, while the Liberal Party people seems a little bit crazier, when it came to policy we couldn’t find a discernible difference”.









						China responds to claims of partisan meddling in Australia, saying it didn’t realise there was a difference between Labor and Liberal
					

“We thought it was just a different word you used for the same thing"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## wayneL (21 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Why your vote is never splitting or wasted in our system. C'mon peeps, let's keep the bastards honest.



A little follow up.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 February 2022)

basilio said:


> *Just Nailed It.*
> 
> *China responds to claims of partisan meddling in Australia, saying it didn’t realise there was a difference between Labor and Liberal           *
> 
> ...



At least we can have multiple parties, unlike that bastion of goodness, the CCP.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (21 February 2022)

Is any comment necessary?


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Is any comment necessary?




Yes , lots, about the relevance to the present day.


----------



## wayneL (21 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , lots, about the relevance to the present day.



I'm all ears, bro.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'm all ears, bro.




After you....


----------



## wayneL (21 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> After you....



The meme is the serve. Up to to you for the return, bro.


----------



## IFocus (21 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , lots, about the relevance to the present day.




Hmm extreme views is the only relevance I can see.


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2022)

Bit of a laugh isn't it?

Ridiculously harsh lockdowns, police beatings, the redefining of 'peaceful protests', overbearing big brother intrusion, surveillance, censorship of the net, fake news, fake science, now the scrubbing of people's lives that were protesting against a idiotic mandate. Let's not forget the 'emergencies act' that was invoked.

Perhaps we should label the nsw unions that are holding up the trains in Sydney as terrorists. Then raid their bank accounts and ruin their credit scores.

Whinge about it you boot licking cucks. Any government overreach is too much. And it's too much right bloody now. 
The meme was apt as you are all the exact type of flogs that would sit back and let it happen


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

Train drivers waiting to start work....nothing like a bit of union bashing before an election
What next reds under the bed....I think the better economic management line is on hold


----------



## PZ99 (22 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Train drivers waiting to start work....nothing like a bit of union bashing before an election
> What next reds under the bed....I think the better economic management line is on hold
> 
> 
> ...



Yep... standard Tory $hit. Everyone's fault but theirs. ala qantas a decade ago.

Of course Scomo reckons only Labor Govts are responsible.


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2022)

So what was the sticking point in the demands?


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

NSW Liberals set to take federal minister to court in battle over who chooses election candidates
					

After months of frustration, an internal stoush as broken out into the open, with the Liberal Party of NSW taking a senior federal minister to court over what it says is an attempt to intervene in grassroots pre-selection processes.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Investoradam (22 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Train drivers waiting to start work....nothing like a bit of union bashing before an election
> What next reds under the bed....I think the better economic management line is on hold
> 
> 
> ...



And the victim politics of the left start already!

btw where have the unions been for the past decade. Allowing big businesses to casual the work force and destroy wages?
The unions are pathetic and useless now days. Globalists allow big business to screw over the Australian worker but happy to protect the useless over paid very under preforming government employee


----------



## PZ99 (22 February 2022)

Hehe... Destroy wages?

Someone might like to tell the troll that unionised workers' wages are higher than many non unionised.

Hence the rampant wage theft that materilised under 9 years of Tory Crap


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> And the victim politics of the left start already!
> 
> btw where have the unions been for the past decade. Allowing big businesses to casual the work force and destroy wages?
> The unions are pathetic and useless now days. Globalists allow big business to screw over the Australian worker but happy to protect the useless over paid very under preforming government employee





Investoradam said:


> Under performing government employees?



The liberal party?


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

The Unions are just like the big businesses,  they look after themselves first.
Mick


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Unions are just like the big businesses,  they look after themselves first.
> Mick



Union jobs are safer jobs


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

You mean the people who work for the union have safer jobs?
I guess when a thug like John Setka keeps his job despite being a misogynistic bully then yes thats true.
mick


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> You mean the people who work for the union have safer jobs?
> I guess when a thug like John Setka keeps his job despite being a misogynistic bully then yes thats true.
> mick



Sounds like the PM....but no I mean site safety


----------



## PZ99 (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Unions are just like the big businesses,  they look after themselves first.
> Mick



That's how they're supposed to work - not sure what the point is there ?


----------



## Investoradam (22 February 2022)

Humid said:


> The liberal party?



Many people think of privatization as a policy of conservative parties. In Australia, however, it was Paul Keating’s Labor that initiated a gigantic fire sale of public assets, setting in motion a process that made billions for private companies at the expense of everyone else.








						How the Labor Party Sold Australia’s Public Assets for a Song
					

Many people think of privatization as a policy of conservative parties. In Australia, however, it was Paul Keating’s Labor that initiated a gigantic fire sale of public assets, setting in motion a process that made billions for private companies at the expense of everyone else.




					www.jacobinmag.com
				




Go nuts muppet!


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Many people think of privatization as a policy of conservative parties. In Australia, however, it was Paul Keating’s Labor that initiated a gigantic fire sale of public assets, setting in motion a process that made billions for private companies at the expense of everyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I try to live in the present but can we go to Menzies or is there a time limit


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

PZ99 said:


> That's how they're supposed to work - not sure what the point is there ?



No they are not, they are supposed to look after u non members first, thats the only reason the blokes who run the unions  have the management positions they have.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Union jobs are safer jobs



Unless being passed paper bags on China build projects


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Unless being passed paper bags on China build projects



You live in NSW  its endemic


----------



## Humid (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> No they are not, they are supposed to look after u non members first, thats the only reason the blokes who run the unions  have the management positions they have.
> Mick



Put the bottle down Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Put the bottle down Mick



I will put the bottle down when you stop smokin the herbs.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2022)

Humid said:


> You live in NSW  its endemic



It really is. And yet Victoria is bloody worse.


----------



## Investoradam (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> I try to live in the present but can we go to Menzies or is there a time limit



like all leftists don’t understand anything out side of a basic theory and what have been told to think


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> No they are not, they are supposed to look after u non members first, thats the only reason the blokes who run the unions  have the management positions they have.
> Mick



A union is supposed to look after its members... not non members.


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> like all leftists don’t understand anything out side of a basic theory and what have been told to think



I'm just happy you seem to be back on your meds


----------



## IFocus (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Bit of a laugh isn't it?
> 
> Ridiculously harsh lockdowns, police beatings, the redefining of 'peaceful protests', overbearing big brother intrusion, surveillance, censorship of the net, fake news, fake science, now the scrubbing of people's lives that were protesting against a idiotic mandate. Let's not forget the 'emergencies act' that was invoked.
> 
> ...




Just another day in NSW eh...


----------



## IFocus (23 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> No they are not, they are supposed to look after u non members first, thats the only reason the blokes who run the unions  have the management positions they have.
> Mick




Is that like saying the Liberal party should look after Labor electorates?

Like Morrison is doing with slush funds funded by tax payers.


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> And the victim politics of the left start already!
> 
> btw where have the unions been for the past decade. Allowing big businesses to casual the work force and destroy wages?
> The unions are pathetic and useless now days. Globalists allow big business to screw over the Australian worker but happy to protect the useless over paid very under preforming government employee



Oh you mean the last decade of Liberal federal government and work choices lol
Why are they so scared of unions if they're useless or is it they outperformed the banks super funds


----------



## mullokintyre (23 February 2022)

PZ99 said:


> A union is supposed to look after its members... not non members.



My applogirs, I had a typo.
It should have read a Union is supposed to look after union members first.
Amazing what a missing I (or eye)  can do to a statement .
Mick


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> My applogirs, I had a typo.
> It should have read a Union is supposed to look after union members first.
> Amazing what a missing I (or eye)  can do to a statement .
> Mick



I blamed the bottle


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

Unions ripping off government projects with price blowouts. Yep we all end up subsidising them. We want to talk scams then there's a long list.
And looking after members is a laugh. Oh unless you mean stacking family members and friends on jobs.

But despite all that, they are necessary.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> I blamed the bottle



Huh are you already drunk?


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> Just another day in NSW eh...



You guys allowed to play outside yet.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2022)

The *Royal Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption* was a Royal Commission established by the Australian government to inquire into alleged financial irregularities associated with the affairs of trade unions.[1] The Australian Workers Union, Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, Electrical Trades Union, Health Services Union and the Transport Workers Union were named in the terms of reference.[2] The Royal Commission inquired into the activities relating to slush funds and other similar funds and entities established by, or related to, the affairs of these organisations.[3]

The Prime Minister Tony Abbott announced the Royal Commission on 10 February 2014 and nominated that the Commission be overseen by a sole Royal Commissioner, The Honourable Dyson Heydon, AC QC, a former High Court judge. Letters Patent were issued on 13 March 2014. The Commissioner submitted an Interim Report[4] in December 2014, which found cases of "wilful defiance of the law" and recommended criminal charges against certain unionists. Allegations of illegality against nine unions had been uncovered, with over 50 potential breaches of criminal and civil law identified.[5]

Following an extension, the Commissioner presented his final report to the Governor-General in December 2015, finding "widespread and deep-seated" misconduct by union officials in Australia. More than 40 people and organisations were referred to authorities, including police, Directors of Public Prosecutions, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission and the Fair Work Commission, and a recommendation for the establishment of an independent body to investigate union records and finances was made.[6]

*Only one conviction ever resulted from the entire process, while five other union officials have either had their charges dropped, or were found not guilty.[7]*

The Australian Council of Trade Unions labelled the Royal Commission as a politicised stitch-up intended solely to advance the Union busting ideological & partisan agenda of the Liberal Party of Australia. The Labor Party of Australia through their employment spokesman, Brendan O’Connor labelled the Royal Commission as modern-day McCarthyism and an outrageous intrusion into the personal affairs of Union members.[8][9]





__





						Royal Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The *Royal Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption* was a Royal Commission established by the Australian government to inquire into alleged financial irregularities associated with the affairs of trade unions.[1] The Australian Workers Union, Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, Electrical Trades Union, Health Services Union and the Transport Workers Union were named in the terms of reference.[2] The Royal Commission inquired into the activities relating to slush funds and other similar funds and entities established by, or related to, the affairs of these organisations.[3]
> 
> The Prime Minister Tony Abbott announced the Royal Commission on 10 February 2014 and nominated that the Commission be overseen by a sole Royal Commissioner, The Honourable Dyson Heydon, AC QC, a former High Court judge. Letters Patent were issued on 13 March 2014. The Commissioner submitted an Interim Report[4] in December 2014, which found cases of "wilful defiance of the law" and recommended criminal charges against certain unionists. Allegations of illegality against nine unions had been uncovered, with over 50 potential breaches of criminal and civil law identified.[5]
> 
> ...



Yeah nice cover up attempt.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08...-commission-10-things-you-should-know/6733922

Along with hundreds of incidents that didn't make it.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Yeah nice cover up attempt.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08...-commission-10-things-you-should-know/6733922
> 
> Along with hundreds of incidents that didn't make it.




No cover up.

Abbott attempted a stich up job on the unions and it fell flat.

Heydon was biased and the results speak for themselves.


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Unions ripping off government projects with price blowouts. Yep we all end up subsidising them. We want to talk scams then there's a long list.
> And looking after members is a laugh. Oh unless you mean stacking family members and friends on jobs.
> 
> But despite all that, they are necessary.



Unions don't quote jobs


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No cover up.
> 
> Abbott attempted a stich up job on the unions and it fell flat.
> 
> Heydon was biased and the results speak for themselves.



Instead of going after the banks who called their own and dragged the libs kicking and screaming into it


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Unions don't quote jobs



Na they blow-out costs.


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> You guys allowed to play outside yet.



Yeah and it's not raining


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No cover up.
> 
> Abbott attempted a stich up job on the unions and it fell flat.
> 
> Heydon was biased and the results speak for themselves.



Hardly. It did not exonerate unions.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Yeah and it's not raining



Did you lay the newspaper on the front windscreen to check?
Might still get a "wet" day


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Did you lay the newspaper on the front windscreen to check?
> Might still get a "wet" day



More delays more pays...


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> More delays more pays...



Don't forget the "trainer" fees.
Or that guy that's on top pay yet never seems to work on-site.


----------



## Investoradam (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Oh you mean the last decade of Liberal federal government and work choices lol
> Why are they so scared of unions if they're useless or is it they outperformed the banks super funds



It was Julia Gillard who originally  wrote the act allowing the casual work force to happen and the unions signed off on it
The latest edition of it yes th e NLP did up date it. Labor and unions signed off on it again
The NLP were never for the unions and alp apparently were the workers party and unions were to.
What makes the ALP worse than the NLP and that’s rather an achievement is that still pretend that they are for the worker. Labor are for migration and has far friendlier laws for the over seas worker. To believe the ALP and unions are still this is like being a grown person and believe in santa









						How the Labor Party Sold Australia’s Public Assets for a Song
					

Many people think of privatization as a policy of conservative parties. In Australia, however, it was Paul Keating’s Labor that initiated a gigantic fire sale of public assets, setting in motion a process that made billions for private companies at the expense of everyone else.




					www.jacobinmag.com


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No cover up.
> 
> Abbott attempted a stich up job on the unions and it fell flat.
> 
> *Heydon was biased and the results speak for themselves*.



A classic example of the very thing the Libs accused the unions of...

A taxpayer subsidised job for one of Abbotts' mates and a dirty womaniser to boot.

Of course Setka Heydon must be innocent 'til proven guilty which is fine for as long as the unions were similarly treated which they weren't


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

PZ99 said:


> A classic example of the very thing the Libs accused the unions of...
> 
> A taxpayer subsidised job for one of Abbotts' mates and a dirty womaniser to boot.
> 
> Of course Setka Heydon must be innocent 'til proven guilty which is fine for as long as the unions were similarly treated which they weren't



If it's "whataboutism", then all public service and those suckling from the teat seems to think taxpayers money is there to be wasted. 
There's a longer list of grievances against politicians. The whole system is shoddy. Even the creation of some of these useless governing bodies.

At least unions have a core function that is vital.  But denying they don't have a racket going on is blind. There's a bloody racket going on everywhere.


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> It was Julia Gillard who originally  wrote the act allowing the casual work force to happen and the unions signed off on it
> The latest edition of it yes th e NLP did up date it. Labor and unions signed off on it again
> The NLP were never for the unions and alp apparently were the workers party and unions were to.
> What makes the ALP worse than the NLP and that’s rather an achievement is that still pretend that they are for the worker. Labor are for migration and has far friendlier laws for the over seas worker. To believe the ALP and unions are still this is like being a grown person and believe in santa
> ...



You cant be very old if you reckon casualising the workforce started with Gillard


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> If it's "whataboutism", then all public service and those suckling from the teat seems to think taxpayers money is there to be wasted.
> There's a longer list of grievances against politicians. The whole system is shoddy. Even the creation of some of these useless governing bodies.
> 
> At least unions have a core function that is vital.  But denying they don't have a racket going on is blind. There's a bloody racket going on everywhere.



Again you're from NSW....


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Again you're from NSW....



This from the Gina/bond state?
 Not to mention all those dodgy mining companies.
You guys are world wide.
Nigerian scam companies actively avoid phonecalls from WA


----------



## Investoradam (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> You cant be very old if you reckon casualising the workforce started with Gillard



You can’t have much of an idea about the whole topic if questioning that.
There was laws that the casual had to get equal or more than the full timer and had to be made a permanent after x amount of time usually 6/12 months.
Gillard and the unions destroyed all that


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> At least unions have a core function that is vital.  But denying they don't have a racket going on is blind. There's a bloody racket going on everywhere.



Before anyone jumps down my throat, I was a fully paid up member, my whole working life and did do shop stewards position.
What @moXJO said is the crux of the matter, the union used to be about workers and workers rights and conditions.
Now that has become secondary, the primary function now is to present an avenue for aspiring politicians to display their attributes, or for thugs to get into a racket IMO.
There are obviously still good people in the unions upper echelons, but those positions in the most have been hijacked by uni graduates, that could talk rings around them.


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> If it's "whataboutism", then all public service and those suckling from the teat seems to think taxpayers money is there to be wasted.
> There's a longer list of grievances against politicians. The whole system is shoddy. Even the creation of some of these useless governing bodies.
> 
> At least unions have a core function that is vital.  But denying they don't have a racket going on is blind. There's a bloody racket going on everywhere.



No one's denying there's a racket - just putting it in context was well outside the motives of that royal commission.

Even in tennis there's been a racket


----------



## Investoradam (23 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Before anyone jumps down my throat, I was a fully paid up member, my whole working life and did do shop stewards position.
> What @moXJO said is the crux of the matter, the union used to be about workers and workers rights and conditions.
> Now that has become secondary, the primary function now is to present an avenue for aspiring politicians to display their attributes, or for thugs to get into a racket IMO.
> There are obviously still good people in the unions upper echelons, but those positions in the most have been hijacked by uni graduates, that could talk rings around them.



Well congratulations on being a genius!
Nothing beats continuing the lie that they are there for the workers and the Australian whilst selling Australian assets and constitution, mass flooding of migration  and weak immigration 457 laws when in power then blaming it in the opposition!
In mean pests pretend to be friends of the first nations people and screw then at the same time and blame the evil conservatives whom are not much better 

being so far up the ar** of the multinational companies whilst holding any government sector to ransom 
The unions are globalists, are usless and the worst thing for the Australian worker!
The irony when them and the alp still hold Whitlam, Hawke and Keating as greats when they are some of the greatest oxygen thieves that have walked the land of Australia!

the alp stopped being the alp under garbage Gough! And become a sell out globalist party


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

There are a lot of very good unions. Also some people that are absolute gems.

 Not having a go at the rank and file either. They are kicking back at a lot of the bs going on.


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> It was Julia Gillard who originally  wrote the act allowing the casual work force to happen and the unions signed off on it
> The latest edition of it yes th e NLP did up date it. Labor and unions signed off on it again
> The NLP were never for the unions and alp apparently were the workers party and unions were to.
> What makes the ALP worse than the NLP and that’s rather an achievement is that still pretend that they are for the worker. Labor are for migration and has far friendlier laws for the over seas worker. To believe the ALP and unions are still this is like being a grown person and believe in santa
> ...











						Gillard vows to protect penalty rates, holiday pay
					

Julia Gillard promises has promised changes to the Fair Work Act to protect penalty rates, shift loading and public holiday pay.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> You can’t have much of an idea about the whole topic if questioning that.
> There was laws that the casual had to get equal or more than the full timer and had to be made a permanent after x amount of time usually 6/12 months.
> Gillard and the unions destroyed all that



You need to do some research because everything you've said there is arse about face.

The Howard govt's aim with workchoices, abolishing workers rights and banning strikes was to effectively make every worker a casual because they had no safety net apart from a minimum wage.

Let's stick to the facts...

Keating ALP introduced the unfair dismissal law

Howard LNP revoked it

Rudd ALP put it back in

ScoMo and Co wanted to revoke it. 

And Christian Porter as Industrial Relations Minister? Funny as fark


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Well congratulations on being a genius!
> Nothing beats continuing the lie that they are there for the workers and the Australian whilst selling Australian assets and constitution, mass flooding of migration  and weak immigration 457 laws when in power then blaming it in the opposition!
> In mean pests pretend to be friends of the first nations people and screw then at the same time and blame the evil conservatives whom are not much better
> 
> ...



Unhinged


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> This from the Gina/bond state?
> Not to mention all those dodgy mining companies.
> You guys are world wide.
> Nigerian scam companies actively avoid phonecalls from WA



The premier,2ic and top cop in the news in NSW and you bring up bondy,
why not brian burke


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

If it came to a choice between backing  business or unions- I'd still back the unions. 

They are an important part of the landscape despite ideological differences.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> and you bring up bondy,
> why not brian burke



That's the last time I paid attention to WA "happenings".


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> If it came to a choice between backing  business or unions- I'd still back the unions.
> 
> They are an important part of the landscape despite ideological differences.



I would back both equally and let the capitalist system do its work as it is now.

Support workers with safety nets and support business with tax reforms.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I would back both equally and let the capitalist system do its work as it is now.
> 
> Support workers with safety nets and support business with tax reforms.



I think smaller businesses could do with some safety nets in the form of clear information (eg: wage guidance, compliance). 

The truth is the libs have streamlined a lot of it. It was terrible prior to 2010.


----------



## Investoradam (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Unhinged



Just imagine selling the land & assets  from the Australian and First Nations people. Profits go off shore, loose control of there country to over seas controlling interests and still claim to be the friend of the worker at the same time pushing for mass migration, casualising the workforce to screw wages lower

then blame the opposition for it and it’s simpleton followers are so woke naive and oblivious to it!
 Left ism aye


----------



## PZ99 (23 February 2022)

Gotta love it when the ads are better than the content LOL


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Just imagine selling the land & assets  from the Australian and First Nations people. Profits go off shore, loose control of there country to over seas controlling interests and still claim to be the friend of the worker at the same time pushing for mass migration, casualising the workforce to screw wages lower
> 
> then blame the opposition for it and it’s simpleton followers are so woke naive and oblivious to it!
> Left ism



Is this the answer Adsy 





__





						Great Australian Party | Home
					

Welcome to The Great Australian Party website – the home of true change for Australians. The Commonwealth Constitution dictates that you are the “Supreme, Absolute, Uncontrollable Authority” in this country. As such, it is now high time to give the power back to the people of this great country.




					www.greataustralianparty.com.au


----------



## Investoradam (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Is this the answer Adsy
> 
> 
> 
> ...




the champion of the people! i mean how do you have such a bull run of endless corrupt investment then have such a recession at the end of the run and debt!


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> the champion of the people! i mean how do you have such a bull run of endless corrupt investment then have such a recession at the end of the run and debt!
> 
> View attachment 138009



I suggest you ask the current government if you want call debt you muppet


----------



## Investoradam (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> I suggest you ask the current government if you want call debt you muppet



you havent got much going on do you? i mean often reply near instantly to my posts regularly 

as well like all lefties struggle to under stand worldy events. a little thing called covid has happened. and many thanks to globalisation industries, supply chains etc have been effected and shut down. one must remember this is thanks to garbage gough and bobby whorke who killed the majority of our manufacturing industry and sucked arse to china for our supply chains. so its easily said its labors falt tht we are in to this mess but i wont and say its largly but the LNP are a lot to blame ad well


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> I suggest you ask the current government if you want call debt you muppet






Investoradam said:


> you havent got much going on do you? i mean often reply near instantly to my posts regularly
> 
> as well like all lefties struggle to under stand worldy events. a little thing called covid has happened. and many thanks to globalisation industries, supply chains etc have been effected and shut down. one must remember this is thanks to garbage gough and bobby whorke who killed the majority of our manufacturing industry and sucked arse to china for our supply chains. so its easily said its labors falt tht we are in to this mess but i wont and say its largly but the LNP are a lot to blame ad well



Come on guys, I talk to both of you, the good thing about ASF is you can have a sensible debate with calm rational people.
There are heaps of other forums, if you want to slag of at people and use derogatory comments to get a response, here we try and find common ground from varying backgrounds.
The main thrust is investment, because most of us want to be self funded people, but we come from different backgrounds and live in different areas of Australia so a different area can give different perspective.
I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to discuss and debate issues at a level that is beneficial to everyone, that's great. If you want to just take the pizz, be disruptive and add flck all to the forum, why not find a forum that fits?


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> you havent got much going on do you? i mean often reply near instantly to my posts regularly
> 
> as well like all lefties struggle to under stand worldy events. a little thing called covid has happened. and many thanks to globalisation industries, supply chains etc have been effected and shut down. one must remember this is thanks to garbage gough and bobby whorke who killed the majority of our manufacturing industry and sucked arse to china for our supply chains. so its easily said its labors falt tht we are in to this mess but i wont and say its largly but the LNP are a lot to blame ad well



And getting payed lol


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Come on guys, I talk to both of you, the good thing about ASF is you can have a sensible debate with calm rational people.
> There are heaps of other forums, if you want to slag of at people and use derogatory comments to get a response, here we try and find common ground from varying backgrounds.
> The main thrust is investment, because most of us want to be self funded people, but we come from different backgrounds and live in different areas of Australia so a different area can give different perspective.
> I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to discuss and debate issues at a level that is beneficial to everyone, that's great. If you want to just take the pizz, be disruptive and add flck all to the forum, why not find a forum that fits?



When your ego can't find the ignore button


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> the champion of the people! i mean how do you have such a bull run of endless corrupt investment then have such a recession at the end of the run and debt!
> 
> View attachment 138009



You didn't give me an opinion on Rod Culleton


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> When your ego can't find the ignore button



Well you would know all about that, so at least we have something in common, the other plus is you used the apostrophe in can't.  
It makes you sound so much more intelligent, it is a small amount of effort , to get a lot more credibility.
I've had this discussion with my oldest son, did year twelve passed everything including chemistry and physics, but wanted to be a sparky. Now after 20 years underground, he talks like a rock ape, he like you is a work in progress.


----------



## Caveman (23 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> the champion of the people! i mean how do you have such a bull run of endless corrupt investment then have such a recession at the end of the run and debt!
> 
> View attachment 138009



Paul Keating best PM we have ever had.


----------



## Humid (23 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well you would know all about that, so at least we have something in common, the other plus is you used the apostrophe in can't.
> It makes you sound so much more intelligent, it is a small amount of effort , to get a lot more credibility.
> I've had this discussion with my oldest son, did year twelve passed everything including chemistry and physics, but wanted to be a sparky. Now after 20 years underground, he talks like a rock ape, he like you is a work in progress.



My talking is way worse than my grammar.


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

Humid said:


> My talking is way worse than my grammar.



When you have you're nose half way up the bosses butt, the guys that work with you said you were hard to understand and it was like muffled speech with an odour.


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

Caveman said:


> Paul Keating best PM we have ever had.



Yep, another one term PM, jeez we have had plenty of them, until recently.
These days they are lucky to last a term.


----------



## PZ99 (24 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yep, another one term PM, jeez we have had plenty of them, until recently.
> These days they are lucky to last a term.



I don't think that will change anytime soon. 

The moment a Govt tries to deal with the trillion dollar debt they will outlive their usefulness


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)




----------



## Investoradam (24 February 2022)

Humid said:


> And getting payed lol



from those never ending money trees! right?


----------



## mullokintyre (24 February 2022)

Albo  predicting the next election. Wonder if he expects Ms Wong to call him Dear Leader ?


Mick


----------



## Investoradam (24 February 2022)

Humid said:


> You didn't give me an opinion on Rod Culleton



like many  times before, no comment on anything relevant about the champian leadership of Whitlem, Whorke & Keats! 3 sell outs who were total photos who rank as the ALPS best leaders! lol


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

Lose... Loose
Paid... Payed?

Glass houses etc

Anyhoo.. I was listening to a podcast yesterday, sorry don't have a link so anecdotal... It said 30% of people intend to vote outside the Lib/Nat/Lab/Green axis of incompetence, with a further 10% undecided.

if so and if we can extrapolate that Australia-wide, it's going to make the federal election very bloody interesting.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Albo  predicting the next election. Wonder if he expects Ms Wong to call him Dear Leader ?
> 
> 
> Mick




Commencing operation "lose the unlosable election" in 3-2-1.


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Commencing operation "lose the unlosable election" in 3-2-1.



It seems to be a race to the bottom, Mo... Who can alienate the maximum number of voters.


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> like many  times before, no comment on anything relevant about the champian leadership of Whitlem, Whorke & Keats! 3 sell outs who were total photos who rank as the ALPS best leaders! lol



Well 2 are dead and the other is 78 years old.....but what about Rodney


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2022)

Oh yeah, it's on:




It's like they forgot this moment.


----------



## Investoradam (24 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Well 2 are dead and the other is 78 years old.....but what about Rodney



again right on the near instant reply!
someones a little triggered! that hence the name "Humid"?


----------



## PZ99 (24 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Albo  predicting the next election. Wonder if he expects Ms Wong to call him Dear Leader ?
> 
> 
> Mick




PW played no small part in their previous loss.

Lock her away along with Chris Bowen

as well as 



Spoiler: KKK



Kristina Marie Kerscher Keneally


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Oh yeah, it's on:





I have been dry wretching since you posted this. Thanks very bloody much


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> again right on the near instant reply!
> someones a little triggered! that hence the name "Humid"?



Rodney?


----------



## sptrawler (24 February 2022)

Jeez Barnaby Joyce has become a trend setter, trade the old girl in on a younger model, Canberra you've got to love it.
Albo you smoothy.









						Meet Anthony Albanese's girlfriend after marriage breakup
					

Labor leader Anthony Albanese, 58, a craft beer fanatic, enjoyed his first night out with 43-year-old Jodie Haydon at the Young Henrys brewery in Newtown.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## basilio (24 February 2022)

The Karma Bus is off and running.


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez Barnaby Joyce has become a trend setter, trade the old girl in on a younger model, Canberra you've got love it.
> Albo you smoothy.
> 
> 
> ...



Jeez you got to admire this woman's sacrifice for the party.


----------



## sptrawler (24 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Jeez you got to admire this woman's sacrifice for the party.



Maybe the ex missus didn't cut it as first lady material, amazing how many ditch their wives when they climb the ladder.


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the ex missus didn't cut it as first lady material, amazing how many ditch their wives when they climb the ladder.



I really get how people can grow apart, and absolutely no judgement... But my observation is that this is probably not a good thing for a leader of a country.


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> I really get how people can grow apart, and absolutely no judgement... But my observation is that this is probably not a good thing for a leader of a country.



e.g. Boris


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2022)

Even Caro is in on the action


----------



## PZ99 (24 February 2022)

Meanwhile guess who's out of action ?

_The NPC has just been informed that Clive Palmer has been directed not to travel due [to] him exhibiting Covid-like symptoms ..._

_All ticket holders will be contacted to be refunded._

Shiddaye ?


----------



## basilio (24 February 2022)

Was this why Clive Palmer refused to be vaccinated ?









						Debunking COVID-19 vaccine death claims promoted by Clive Palmer
					

Fact Check examines the claim that earned the Queensland businessman and politician a rebuke this week from the Therapeutic Goods Administration.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Even Caro is in on the action




My eye rolling muscles are experiencing severe fatigue at the moment... As totally impossible as it may seem she would be worse, and more ridiculous than Hinch.


----------



## basilio (24 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the ex missus didn't cut it as first lady material, amazing how many ditch their wives when they climb the ladder.




Nooo.  Not even close SP. Carmel Tebutt, Anthony Albaneses first wife, was a very senior politician in the NSW Labour Party. She was Deputy Premier from 2008-2011. Has an extensive professional career.

She pulled the pin on their marriage on New Years Eve  January 2019.  Very abrupt.  Both parties said there was no one else. 









						Meet Anthony Albanese’s former wife Carmel Tebbutt | OverSixty
					

The couple announced their split in January after 30 years of marriage.




					www.oversixty.com.au


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> My eye rolling muscles are experiencing severe fatigue at the moment... As totally impossible as it may seem she would be worse, and more ridiculous than Hinch.



She is the definition of 'solipsism'.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2022)

basilio said:


> She pulled the pin on their marriage on New Years Eve  January 2019.  Very abrupt.  Both parties said there was no one else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah not the story I heard. But it is what it is.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> e.g. Boris



Isn't he on no.4?
You have to admire his partying abilities. He is my age but he still seems to party every week like its 1999.


----------



## basilio (24 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Isn't he on no.4?
> You have to admire his partying abilities. He is my age but he still seems to party every week like its 1999.




Really ?  Where have you seen evidence of wives 1 and 2 ?   Could possibly have  had some other relationships before marrying Carmel Tebbett but they had been together for 30 years from  1989.

But... so what is the point ?









						Prime Minister Anthony Albanese still has a close bond with his ex wife Carmel Tebbutt
					

Meet the former deputy premier here.




					www.nowtolove.com.au


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

The point is Sp sold his electric scooter to the single mum next door.....giddy up


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

cheaply


----------



## Knobby22 (24 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Really ?  Where have you seen evidence of wives 1 and 2 ?   Could possibly have  had some other relationships before marrying Carmel Tebbett but they had been together for 30 years from  1989.
> 
> But... so what is the point ?
> 
> ...



Talking about Boris.


----------



## basilio (24 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Talking about Boris.



Oops .  Wasn't aware of that thread in this conversation.


----------



## Investoradam (24 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Rodney?



Congratulations on being able to restrain some hrs from button mashing episode! Now try and keep him up


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Congratulations on being able to restrain some hrs from button mashing episode! Now try and keep him up



Bastards made me do some work but should be good to go tomorrow
We can discuss your sovereign citizenship and the constitution Magna Carta etc 
You know the vibe


----------



## Investoradam (25 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Bastards made me do some work but should be good to go tomorrow
> We can discuss your sovereign citizenship and the constitution Magna Carta etc
> You know the vibe



work for the dole?
maybe we can discuss how not to be so reliant on China and how such wordly  pandemics effect our country. or why we dont manufacturer anything here. aside from toilet paper something odly people were fighting in the isles about.
but sovereginship is a good one. why cant a nation of Australia have its inderpendance or who cant any western country. its ok for an asian or middle eastern country to have there's?

or is it like climate change racist as it only happens in white western countries?


----------



## Humid (25 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> work for the dole?
> maybe we can discuss how not to be so reliant on China and how such wordly  pandemics effect our country. or why we dont manufacturer anything here. aside from toilet paper something odly people were fighting in the isles about.
> but sovereginship is a good one. why cant a nation of Australia have its inderpendance or who cant any western country. its ok for an asian or middle eastern country to have there's?
> 
> or is it like climate change racist as it only happens in white western countries?



When do we get to Rodney


----------



## Investoradam (25 February 2022)

Humid said:


> When do we get to Rodney



try taking a deep breath and slow the trigger process down buddy!
hopefully there will be more work for the dole again for you, then as soon as you know it youll be a valuable part of a team!🤙


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

Humid said:


> The point is Sp sold his electric scooter to the single mum next door.....giddy up



Actually I have another one for sale if you want it, same price $500, Segway ES4 with long range battery.








						Segway Ninebot ES4 Review: With Dual Suspension, Is It Better Than the Ninebot Max?
					

In this Segway Ninebot ES4 review, find out exactly what keeps this beginner friendly scooter from rolling with the best of the best.




					electric-scooter.guide
				




I upgraded to this.








						EMove Cruiser: Everything You Need to Know - Guide 2021
					

Riders who are clamoring for long-range scooters need not look further than the EMove Cruiser. With a whopping 100-km maximum range on a scooter built for everyday commuting, the EMove Cruiser is already as sweet deal! But it's more than just it's range, read on to find out more.




					www.electrickicks.com.au


----------



## basilio (25 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Actually I have another one for sale if you want it, same price $500, Segway ES4 with long range battery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is a seriously cool set of wheels. Are you allowed to ride it in WA ?  Could you give us a road report ? And what is the cost ?


----------



## mullokintyre (25 February 2022)

Don't  these three  classy blokes just look like politicians ....


----------



## Knobby22 (25 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Don't  these three  classy blokes just look like politicians ....
> View attachment 138125
> 
> View attachment 138124



I get you but looks aren't everything. He could be the next John Howard!

Like the tweets

 @LiberalVictoriaWho’s the guy with the really tiny head on the right?
111Dylan Walton 🐧@IamDWalt·
23 FebJames Newbury actually has a normal sized head, but you can’t tell due to his inability to wear a suit that isn’t three sizes too big.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

Who has been a busy little jetsetter?








						Sky high for Wong reaching the top tier
					

The political veteran has scored the ultimate achievement in the world of corporate perks.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Now the political veteran has scored the ultimate achievement in the world of corporate perks. Labor’s opposition foreign affairs spokesperson achieved Qantas Frequent Flyer Lifetime Platinum Status (our caps, not Wong’s) in the final week of February – a designation, in our books, on par with an Australia Day honour or even the top gong on _Dancing With The Stars_.
When pressed, a Qantas insider confirmed the privilege was only bestowed on frequent flyers once they rack up 75,000 status credits – which are a different measure to frequent flyer points and simply denote how much you fly.
And the South Australian Senator Wong sure knows how to fly.

Consider this maths: frequent flyers earn 10 status credits for a discounted economy flight from Adelaide to Canberra. That means that Wong has taken the equivalent of 7500 flights between the two capitals during her lifetime and near-20 year tenure in federal parliament.

Wong’s new designation comes with lifelong access to international first and domestic business lounges and a guarantee that your name is top-of-the-pile for international upgrades. It also comes with a handy luggage bonus which means that your bag is first off the plane and the first to arrive on a baggage carousel when you land.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Who has been a busy little jetsetter?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Singling out one individual is not very informative.

How does she compare with other pollies on all sides ?

George Christensen (the Member for Manilla) must have racked up a few points with all his trips to the Phillipines.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Singling out one individual is not very informative.
> 
> How does she compare with other pollies on all sides ?
> 
> George Christensen (the Member for Manilla) must have racked up a few points with all his trips to the Phillipines.



Well it came from the SMH, so it must be a pretty unusual event, it is unlike them to highlight a Labor story.
The other thing is, would you be asking the same question, if it was a coalition member who was in opposition and getting the miles up ?


----------



## PZ99 (2 March 2022)

SMH is more pro Coalition than Labor so this story is no surprise.

I'm actually more curious how Penny's points compares with other pollies in her area (Adelaide)

I remember back in the day if I lost my travelers' cheques Mr Wong was always there for me. What about Ms Wong ? Stuck in Adelaide with a wall on one side and SMH on the other. Never there when you need 'em anymore


----------



## The Triangle (2 March 2022)

A flexible business class return flight is 90 status credits Adelaide to Canberra.  Lifetime Platinum is 75,000 status credits = 833 return trips = 16 years of flying every week to and from Adelaide on Qantas.  Through in a few double and triple status credit specials and that'll be about 14 years to get.  As she's been in parliament for 20 years it seems somewhat reasonable to be lifetime Platinum by now.   Everyone knows full well politicians don't take discount economy flights.  Backpackers and pensioners are the only ones who pay for those flights.

I hate labor and can't stand penny wong.  But this is such a stupid wasteful junk article.  Those authors are pathetic and should be ashamed.  You don't need to 'press' Qantas insiders to ask about FF status - It's simply there on the Qantas website.    I pressed a McDonalds insider about the price of a bigmac today - he told me- its $6.40.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

basilio said:


> That is a seriously cool set of wheels. Are you allowed to ride it in WA ?  Could you give us a road report ? And what is the cost ?



Yes they are legal in W.A, the Segway ES4 is the same scooter that Bird and Lime used to rent out in Europe, they are well made and are rated to 100kg. I personally think they are more suited to someone around 70kg.
They still sell them, but they are now called the E45, the difference being a marginally bigger tyre, the rest of the electrics batteries ect are the same, the E45 costs about $1,000.
 Why the E4/ E45 is popular, as it is very light yet solid, easy to handle, folds quite small and is easy to carry, yet still has a 30klm range and three speed settings eco/normal and sport.
Some of the larger ones are heavy and awkward for women and lighter people especially.
So they are a great scooter for people who want a really well made, yet easily manageable size scooter, that has a known manufacturer and good software/ backup etc.
I have electric bikes, normal bikes and electric scooters, the wife and I find the normal bikes and the electric scooters the most practical, I will get rid of the electric bikes we just don't use them. It might be just a personal thing but half the fun of riding a bike is the exercise. 
The scooters are brilliant on public transport, ride them to the station, easily managed on the train, then ride them to final destination from the train and easy to either lock up or carry. 
Jeez probably wrong thread.


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2022)

Well, at least we won't have to pay for the another shrimp on the barbie... Winning?









						‘Never going there’: Australia slammed
					

When Australia finally flung open its borders last week to fully vaccinated international tourists after being shut for 704 days, it was a joyous occasion for some.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2022)

I keep saying that sucking up to the media by politicians isn't party specific, but no one will have it, I like McGowan he is middle of the road the same as Barnett was. 
It just makes a mockery of tribal politics, where one group says they don't have the ear of the media.









						'Mark, well done': Text messages between WA Premier and media mogul revealed in court
					

Insider text messages between Mark McGowan and Kerry Stokes are aired in court, including an exchange where the WA Premier thanks the media mogul for "marvellous" front page articles depicting Clive Palmer as a cockroach and cane toad.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (9 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I keep saying that sucking up to the media by politicians isn't party specific, but no one will have it, I like McGowan he is middle of the road the same as Barnett was.
> It just makes a mockery of tribal politics, where one group says they don't have the ear of the media.
> 
> 
> ...



We have separation of church and state (purportedly).

I propose we also have separation of media and state.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> I propose we also have separation of media and state.




Would be good I agree. How would it be enforced ?

Maybe just reporting what politicians say, no opinions, no analysis, no lampoons and let people make up their own minds ?

No fun it that.


----------



## PZ99 (9 March 2022)

The more things change the more they stay the same...

Petrol, Moscow, Argo and then the bloody Kingswood LOL

1980 7 News


----------



## mullokintyre (13 March 2022)

Jacquie Lambie has done her fair share of blasting all and sundry about their lack of transparency in political donations  (see   Here ,  Here , and  Here ), however, it seems the good JL may have been a tad lax in her own disclosures.
From The Australian


> Jacqui Lambie – who promised leading donation disclosure and frequently lambasts other politicians over shoddy transparency – has conceded keeping the detail of her own donations secret for almost two years.
> The Tasmanian senator promised she and her party would have “the most transparent donation policy in the country” and to publish “the most detailed breakdown of our donations of any political party”.
> 
> This was to include quarterly reports on her website, the first of which she promised would be published on March 31, 2020 – almost two years ago.
> ...



I wonder how long it would have taken her to release the data if an enquiring journalist had not asked why it was not ofrthcoming after two years??
It highlights the problems of chucking stones from your glass castle.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

Well who would have guessed? I thought only one side of politics pork barreled. 🤣 Some on here have been taking the pizz.









						Charged up: Labor favours marginal seats in community battery pitch
					

Labor is loading up on community battery projects in marginal seats, especially in electorates the party needs to hold in order to win government.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Labor has favoured voters in marginal seats in a $200 million pitch to build local batteries to support renewable energy while also promising 64 per cent of the spending so far to electorates held by its own MPs.
The flagship policy has enabled Labor leader Anthony Albanese and his shadow ministers to promise $500,000 for each battery during visits to seats that could decide the coming election, with more pledges to come in the weeks ahead.


----------



## IFocus (16 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well who would have guessed? I thought only one side of politics pork barreled. 🤣 Some on here have been taking the pizz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You need to take off the Coalition fan boy glasses and please try to keep up, as the Coalition has spent mainly in their own sears Labor are just trying to balance the ledger a little, however I doubt they will ever catch-up Morrison has broken all records in that area.


----------



## wayneL (16 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> You need to take off the Coalition fan boy glasses and please try to keep up, as the Coalition has spent mainly in their own sears Labor are just trying to balance the ledger a little, however I doubt they will ever catch-up Morrison has broken all records in that area.



Yeah! Labor are completely honest and even handed. They haven't pork barreled, ever! Never even branch stacked or anything remotely like that.... Nope, just not the Labor style


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> You need to take off the Coalition fan boy glasses and please try to keep up, as the Coalition has spent mainly in their own sears Labor are just trying to balance the ledger a little, however I doubt they will ever catch-up Morrison has broken all records in that area.



As I intimated in the post, that it was naive to believe that pork barreling is confined to one side of politics, there is only one of us that has tainted glasses and it sure ain't me. 
So when the coalition do it it is outrageous, when labor do it we will call it balancing the ledger, priceless.🤣
We will keep a book on it when Labor get in.


----------



## moXJO (16 March 2022)

I think the whole Kimberly Kitching affair just shows that Labor are the exact same wankers they always were. And more females on the front bench did nothing to stop the culture.

However, scomo needs to be dumped asap.
I'm just wondering how much I'll regret it later.


----------



## wayneL (16 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yeah! Labor are completely honest and even handed. They haven't pork barreled, ever! Never even branch stacked or anything remotely like that.... Nope, just not the Labor style



Labor would never bully a woman or have a mean girl culture.

Albo would never say anything like "Smash her" during question time.

Labor always investigates allegations of alleged rape by ex opposition leaders.

Labor is the epitome of saintly virtue


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

The real issue IMO is, Labor have to win, if they don't well it doesn't bear thinking about. 
Really the rails have been greased endlessly, every issue whether State or Federal has been blamed on Scott from marketing, the coalition look exhausted they really should have been out last election.
Then you have the virus and the endless problems associated with that, even Barnaby looks worn out, but he still seem to be able to perform where it counts.
So Labor should have won the last one, Albo is playing the small target plan, if this doesn't work where to from there.
Not that I think Labor wont win.


----------



## wayneL (16 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The real issue IMO is, Labor have to win, if they don't well it doesn't bear thinking about.
> Really the rails have been greased endlessly, every issue whether State or Federal has been blamed on Scott from marketing, the coalition look exhausted they really should have been out last election.
> Then you have the virus and the endless problems associated with that, even Barnaby looks worn out, but he still seem to be able to perform where it counts.
> So Labor should have won the last one, Albo is playing the small target plan, if this doesn't work where to from there.
> Not that I think Labor wont win.



I still think it's London to a brick and Mombasa to a melon that labour wins this, despite their best efforts to blow it.
For a while there I thought it was going to be a landslide but now I think it'll be a lot closer.

But could labour blow it altogether yet again?

The thing is either result is the worst possible result for Australia.


----------



## IFocus (16 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Labor would never bully a woman or have a mean girl culture.
> 
> Albo would never say anything like "Smash her" during question time.
> 
> ...





Quoting a Liberal shrill who is quoting a Liberal shrill......


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> I still think it's London to a brick and Mombasa to a melon that labour wins this, despite their best efforts to blow it.
> For a while there I thought it was going to be a landslide but now I think it'll be a lot closer.
> 
> But could labour blow it altogether yet again?
> ...



No I think Labor has to get in, the coalition absolutely needs to be benched, they are just throwing money to try and stop a tide they can't stop.
But having said that, it is good to see the rusted on Laborites are wad punching their undies. 🤣


----------



## wayneL (16 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Quoting a Liberal shrill who is quoting a Liberal shrill......


----------



## IFocus (16 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> No I think Labor has to get in, the coalition absolutely needs to be benched, they are just throwing money to try and stop a tide they can't stop.
> But having said that, it is good to see the rusted on Laborites are wad punching their undies. 🤣





Mean while back at the rusted on Morrison fan club... 

Actually if Labor get up it will be the biggest hospital handpass ever a, Trill$ in debt, world wide recession to hit and it will be all Labor's fault.

Liberals talking about further unfunded tax cuts farrrrrrk


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Mean while back at the rusted on Morrison fan club...
> 
> Actually if Labor get up it will be the biggest hospital handpass ever a, Trill$ in debt, world wide recession to hit and it will be all Labor's fault.
> 
> Liberals talking about further unfunded tax cuts farrrrrrk



OMG the excuses are already getting rolled out. 🤣
Like I said earlier, I'm apolitical I just think it is time we need a change and Labor are the only ones who can bring in the pain needed to fix things.
A huge amount of money has been handed out in the last two years and everyone is so used to it, that they are popping up left right and center looking for Government handouts from Scomo and when he gives it they say it wasn't fast enough, or why did they get and we didn't.
Time for a complete change of direction, bring on Labor, magic. 
I've been around long enough, to have been through about five of these cycles, this will just be another one. 👍

By the way, my best mate retires on Friday, 67 years old and made it, thanks Kev for the help. 🤣 









						'I'm Kevin. I'm here to help'
					






					www.smh.com.au


----------



## wayneL (17 March 2022)

It seems politics is a pretty lucrative business.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> It seems politics is a pretty lucrative business.





Propaganda. What is the source for that data ?

Why do you keep posting un-verified cr@p from people with a vested interest in denigrating the other side ?


----------



## wayneL (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Propaganda. What is the source for that data ?
> 
> Why do you keep posting un-verified cr@p from people with a vested interest in denigrating the other side ?



It's not just Albo mate.. it's politicians in general. And in case you haven't noticed I'm not on the other side. As I have said several times on this forum I will probably never vote LNP ever again. I am against both major parties.

Also in case you haven't noticed, "your side" does an aweful lot of propaganda to sh¹t can the other side.

So please spare me the faux outrage.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's not just Albo mate.. it's politicians in general. And in case you haven't noticed I'm not on the other side. As I have said several times on this forum I will probably never vote LNP ever again. I am against both major parties.
> 
> Also in case you haven't noticed, "your side" does an aweful lot of propaganda to sh¹t can the other side.
> 
> So please spare me the faux outrage.



So Albo is worth $10 million ? Peanuts , Dutton is worth $220 million. What's your point ?


----------



## wayneL (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So Albo is worth $10 million ? Peanuts , Dutton is worth $220 million. What's your point ?



That *IS the point, Horace.

To quote myself - ”It seems *politics* is a pretty lucrative business.”

We pretty much know they all take advantage of inside information to enrich themselves. You'd do it, I'd do too.

However, the deeper point is that Albo claims to be a socialist and cans the rich for political points with the battlers.

Yet by pretty much any measure you would care to use, Albo is one of the rich. It's the disingenuity(sic) and the double standard.

Let me tell you what is going to happen when Albo becomes prime minister... The poor and the rich game to be handed to and looked after, while the sitting ducks in Australian society, the middle class, is going to get cornholed.

So if you're middle class you have two options, get lubed up, or very quickly figure out how to protect yourself.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> That *IS the point, Horace.
> 
> To quote myself - ”It seems *politics* is a pretty lucrative business.”
> 
> ...



Spot on, the teams change, but the players are all the same, to think otherwise is just brainwashing IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> That *IS the point, Horace.
> 
> To quote myself - ”It seems *politics* is a pretty lucrative business.”
> 
> ...




Anyone who owns a house in Sydney these days is a millionaire. I don't know if Albo used 'inside information'. He's been in a well paid job for years, a Cabinet Minister for some of those, has no dependents now I believe, so maybe he saved his money.

A lot of Public servants would get paid more than he does.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

Hey, guess what ?

Scott Morrison has a net worth of $19 million and he's a *Christian.* 

You , know the people who tell others to give to the poor but get rich themselves.

What a hypocrite, he should have given his fortune to the homeless.


----------



## wayneL (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Hey, guess what ?
> 
> Scott Morrison has a net worth of $19 million and he's a *Christian.*
> 
> ...



Judas made the same point, but I think Jesus put him back in his box on that issue.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

Mark McGowan showing a bit of class, despite the media trying to goad him, it's a shame others in politics can't carry themselves in the same manner.
If they did, they would gain a lot more of the publics respect, rather than joining in with the media to become pack animals.  
Politicians can dislike each other, there is no need to become media puppets to display it IMO.



			https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/wa-premier-mark-mcgowan-reveals-what-he-really-thinks-of-prime-minister-scott-morrison/news-story/072720dd9c3f6f1f4918ce4b4415b2f5


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Mark McGowan showing a bit of class, despite the media trying to goad him, it's a shame others in politics can't carry themselves in the same manner.
> If they did, they would gain a lot more of the publics respect, rather than joining in with the media to become pack animals.
> Politicians can dislike each other, there is no need to become media puppets to display it IMO.
> 
> ...




McGowan is probably the most professional leader in the country right now.


----------



## wayneL (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> McGowan is probably the most professional leader in the country right now.



And challenging for the most authoritarian


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> McGowan is probably the most professional leader in the country right now.



Absolutely, he rises above all the tribal crap and blame games, he just gets on with doing what he believes is best for the State.
It is a shame the rest of the politicians can't behave the same, playing up to the media circus, just denigrates the lot of them.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

Sounds as though the quarantine facility, in the bush is getting ready to open.
I wonder if it will be used for returning Aussies, or 457 and seasonal workers?









						Private healthcare providers say they were left in the dark over Wellcamp's medical services contract
					

Annastacia Palaszczuk said a contract for the Wellcamp quarantine facility was awarded to Aspen Medical without going to tender because no-one else could do the job – but some private healthcare providers are challenging this.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2022)

It will be an interesting test for Labor and the polls in SA this weekend.

The polls predict a landslide for Labor, Stephen Marshall could be a one term Premier.

A big loss there would scare the Coalition $hitless.


----------



## PZ99 (18 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It will be an interesting test for Labor and the polls in SA this weekend.
> 
> The polls predict a landslide for Labor, Stephen Marshall could be a one term Premier.
> 
> A big loss there would scare the Coalition $hitless.



I think it's a one term Govt. They lost the 3 seats they gained to win + they have 4 very marginal seats.

Scomo and Co will then try to minimise it by spruiking up the budget due on March 29th.

Election called in April followed by 3 weeks of saturated BS maximus by all 150 sides of politics


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It will be an interesting test for Labor and the polls in SA this weekend.
> 
> The polls predict a landslide for Labor, Stephen Marshall could be a one term Premier.
> 
> A big loss there would scare the Coalition $hitless.



How has the SA government been, we don't hear much over here about them, mainly NSW, Vic and Qld, not much about Tassie either.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> How has the SA government been, we don't hear much over here about them, mainly NSW, Vic and Qld, not much about Tassie either.




Here in NSW we don't hear much about SA or Tassie either. Quite a lot about WA you will be pleased to hear.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Here in NSW we don't hear much about SA or Tassie either. Quite a lot about WA you will be pleased to hear.



All good I hope. 👍


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> All good I hope. 👍




Not if you are wayneL.


----------



## wayneL (18 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not if you are wayneL.



I hope you're not expecting rent from me to live in your head, Horace.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2022)

Anthony Green has called the SA election for Labor.

Implications federally ?


----------



## PZ99 (19 March 2022)

So the four marginal seats gone plus a possible fifth.

Looks like most of the SABest votes went with Labor.

I still think the federal election will be a lot closer than the polls suggest.


----------



## wayneL (19 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Anthony Green has called the SA election for Labor.
> 
> Implications federally ?



Scotty is stuffed


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Scotty is stuffed



Scotty has been stuffed since the last election, he wasn't meant to win it, this time it will go to plan because they have told Albo to SFA leave the rest to us. 
It will be interesting to see what we get, out of this next two terms of government. 

Labor have won government in S.A, might not be long and there will be a full house of Labor Governments. 


			https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/major-call-on-sa-election-result/news-story/5486f03595c10d3928f7d622bcf6ee4f
		


Labor leader Peter Malinauskas has become the first leader to defeat a sitting government since the pandemic began.
In a thumping election victory, the Premier-elected said the significance of voters dumping the Liberals after one term in government was not lost on him.


----------



## Knobby22 (20 March 2022)

Marshall lost the election for two main reasons.
1. Opening up to Covid too early leading to Christmas problems.
2. Infighting meaning the government lost a few MPs and resulting in a minority government.

Don't think you can read too much federally  though Scotty being on the nose would not have helped.

If you look at the Libs in Tasmania you can see a very successful government who recently easily won their election.


----------



## wayneL (20 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Marshall lost the election for two main reasons.
> 1. Opening up to Covid too early leading to Christmas problems.
> 2. Infighting meaning the government lost a few MPs and resulting in a minority government.
> 
> ...



Good comment, and this may be a bit unfair because I haven't really followed SA politics all that much, but also I think Marshall and Morrison have made/are making the same mistake.

That is, forsaking Liberal Party base, the natural classical liberal voter.

I think the electorate is making a massive mistake, as they will in the coming federal election, in just voting Labor instead. This mindless swapping between Liberal and Labor will lead to a cultural and economic basket case just like any of the worst of the European economies (personal opinion). 

It is time for a new broom, just not sure that the current minors 100% have that answer (as much as I am personally prepared to give them a go over and above the two egregious major parties)... There seems to always be a deal breaker... And of course thereis always tribal inertia.


----------



## Knobby22 (20 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Good comment, and this may be a bit unfair because I haven't really followed SA politics all that much, but also I think Marshall and Morrison have made/are making the same mistake.
> 
> That is, forsaking Liberal Party base, the natural classical liberal voter.
> 
> ...



Some of the Libs have been looking to the Republicans for guidance. That is the way to electoral oblivion. The British Conservative Party is the way forward.


----------



## wayneL (20 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Some of the Libs have been looking to the Republicans for guidance. That is the way to electoral oblivion. The British Conservative Party is the way forward.



The 'Pubs are a cluster****

'Murica is a cluster****, apart from Ron Desantis. The Libs could could take some lessons from him.

The British conservative party had great potential to be a true moderate conservative party and that is why people voted them in. but now they have also become an absolute shitshow and have forsaken their base far worse than our Lib party.

Worse yet, they have betrayed those who "lent" them their in the breaking of the red wall.

There is only one thing that is saving the British conservative Party, and that is the absolute and comprehensive ideological oblivion  that is that the British Labour Party.

Their Liberal Democrats (a party that I am actually ashamed to admit that I used to be a member of when I lived there... long story) are even more dysfunctional as any sort of potential alternative.

Boris in no way, is any longer a conservative at all and if only there was some viable alternative, should have his ass voted out ASAP.

DeSantis is currently the only hope for true conservatism.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2022)

The pork barrel rolls along, ably being pushed by all and sundry.  








						Election ‘pork barrelling’ skews transport funding, and it’s on the rise
					

Promises for more roads, rail and other transport spending are increasingly popular with federal politicians courting voters, a new analysis finds.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Victoria has been dudded out of transport funding compared with NSW and Queensland because of the realities of the electoral map, a new analysis of projects promised during election campaigns finds.
Not only is the funding skewed towards marginal seats, but the promises made during election campaigns by all sides tend to be poorly thought-through and not backed by proper business cases, according to a new Grattan Institute report.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Marshall lost the election for two main reasons.
> 1. Opening up to Covid too early leading to Christmas problems.
> 2. Infighting meaning the government lost a few MPs and resulting in a minority government.



Directly related to the first is a perception that he didn't stand up to ScoMo and assert authority when required.

That's one of those things that'll never be proven but there seems to be a perception that ScoMo wanted borders open and Marshall caved.

Hospitals, particularly ambulance ramping, also a big issue although the Liberals can't fairly be blamed for all of that (though they seem to have copped the blame).


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It will be an interesting test for Labor and the polls in SA this weekend.
> 
> The polls predict a landslide for Labor, Stephen Marshall could be a one term Premier.
> 
> A big loss there would scare the Coalition $hitless.






Smurf1976 said:


> Directly related to the first is a perception that he didn't stand up to ScoMo and assert authority when required.
> 
> That's one of those things that'll never be proven but there seems to be a perception that ScoMo wanted borders open and Marshall caved.
> 
> Hospitals, particularly ambulance ramping, also a big issue although the Liberals can't fairly be blamed for all of that (though they seem to have copped the blame).



It will be interesting next year, we could end up with nearly a full house of Labor, Feds, NSW,Vic,Qld,S.A,W.A, now that would be interesting IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting next year, we could end up with nearly a full house of Labor, Feds, NSW,Vic,Qld,S.A,W.A, now that would be interesting IMO.




When is the NSW election ? Throw them in as well.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> When is the NSW election ? Throw them in as well.



I did throw them in, the election is in March 2023.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I did throw them in, the election is in March 2023.



Sorry can't read. NSW Labor needs a much higher profile to have a chance, they are not getting much traction at the moment.


----------



## basilio (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Anyone who owns a house in Sydney these days is a millionaire. I don't know if Albo used 'inside information'. He's been in a well paid job for years, a Cabinet Minister for some of those, has no dependents now I believe, so maybe he saved his money.
> 
> A lot of Public servants would get paid more than he does.




Spot on.  Albo does own 3-4 houses as far as I can remember.  Carmel Tebutt, his wife/partner for 30 years was a high level bureaucrat and NSW politician.  There is no doubt that on their combined wages they were able to invest in property from 1990 onwards . Check out the Url

So yes he could easily have $10m in assets ( although we don't know how much he owes).  The  slag that he has never had "a real job" is just another piece of xhite.




__





						No Cookies | Daily Telegraph
					

No Cookies




					www.dailytelegraph.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (21 March 2022)

basilio said:


> The  slag that he has never had "a real job" is just another piece of xhite.



Charming Bas, but don't let them call you a misogynist.
Mick


----------



## basilio (21 March 2022)

If one was looking for a down to earth, fiercely honest politician who was truly committed to helping the underdog then Jacqui Lambie would be high on the list.

I do agree that long term politicians who have become very comfortably well off  with their positions are not going to be as passionate about the plight of the poor. Excellent article in The Monthly on her history and effectiveness.









						The Monthly March issue
					

Out now




					www.themonthly.com.au


----------



## basilio (21 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Charming Bas, but don't let them call you a misogynist.
> Mick











						Slag something or someone off Synonyms | Collins English Thesaurus
					

Another word for slag something or someone off: to criticize in an unpleasant way | Collins English Thesaurus




					www.collinsdictionary.com


----------



## wayneL (21 March 2022)

Noun<>verb


----------



## PZ99 (21 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting next year, we could end up with nearly a full house of Labor, Feds, NSW,Vic,Qld,S.A,W.A, now that would be interesting IMO.



We had a full house in 2008 off memory.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> We had a full house in 2008 off memory.



Thats interesting, they should be able to find consensus and get some controversial change through, it will be exciting to see what it is.


----------



## PZ99 (22 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Thats interesting, they should be able to find consensus and get some controversial change through, it will be exciting to see what it is.



Realistically, the only controversial change might be the GST but I don't think the appetite for widespread tax reform is there at present.

Unfortunately in 2008 the wheels started falling off a few ALP state Govts and the consensus never appeared. But then again, Rudd was never known for his consensual attributes was he ? LOL


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Charming Bas, but don't let them call you a misogynist.
> Mick



Talking about misogynists, lucky Penny Wong is female and isn't called Scomo, Albo, or any other male name, they wouldn't get away with saying "oh I appologised to Kimberly Kitchener, for saying 'if you had children you might understand why there's a climate emergency', but insisted it wasn't a 'personal attack'.
I'm sure it wouldn't be swept under the carpet if a male politician said it, but hey I guess only women can say nasty things and not be held accountable.


----------



## PZ99 (22 March 2022)

She's a liability and played no small part in the ALP election loss.









						Workers snub Shorten as Wong defends not shaking a Liberal hand
					

Workers knock back Bill Shorten's attempts at handshakes as Labor's Penny Wong explains why she refused to shake a Liberal's hand.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> She's a liability and played no small part in the ALP election loss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I've said and the rusted on laborites gave me $hit for it, Billy was selling the working class down the toilet, blind Freddy could see that.

The article just shows workers have long memories, just in case silly Billy wants to put the knife in Albos back, like he did with Rudd/Gillard.


----------



## Humid (23 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I've said and the rusted on laborites gave me $hit for it, Billy was selling the working class down the toilet, blind Freddy could see that.
> 
> The article just shows workers have long memories, just in case silly Billy wants to put the knife in Albos back, like he did with Rudd/Gillard.



No the working class pay tax so not threatened by the loss of franking credits unlike some


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2022)

Humid said:


> No the working class pay tax so not threatened by the loss of franking credits unlike some



I hope they try that one again, all the blue collar guys who buy shares in their wives name were pizzed as well, but as you say twiggy and the boys were laughing. 🤣 .
One thing for sure, if your representative of Labor thinking, they wont be in for very long, yet again.   
Good to see you back.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 March 2022)

Humid said:


> No the working class pay tax so not threatened by the loss of franking credits unlike some



Was that a typo?
if the working class pay tax, then the franking credits will help them reduce Tax.
Are you perhaps thinking of the SMSF luckies who actually get a refund rather than just a reduction in tax??
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Was that a typo?
> if the working class pay tax, then the franking credits will help them reduce Tax.
> Are you perhaps thinking of the SMSF luckies who actually get a refund rather than just a reduction in tax??
> Mick



Yes Humid is a great believer, in the self funded and low income earners  not getting the franking credit, yet those who are in industry funds get to keep theirs. So like myself who fund my own retirement, if I had kept running my SMSF I would lose the franking credit, but if I transferred the money into an industry fund I kept it.
The other issue was a lot of guys buy shares in their wives name, as they are stay at home mums for FIFO's etc so on lower tax rates most intelligent blue collar workers do it, the wives would have lost the franking credits.
Yet billionaires, reduce the tax they pay by hundreds of millions of dollars, they get to keep them.
Some people couldn't get their head around the fact that the franking credit is tax paid to the ATO on your behalf, whether that tax goes back to a self funded retiree, or a billionaire pays less tax, the net result is the same, the ATO doesn't get that tax.
So I suggested stop franking credits completely, or else they have to be applied the way they are, it is just Humid was upset Labor blew their feet off.
With regard a self funded retiree in pension phase, as it is decreed to be tax free earnings, either they get the franking credit back, or the dividend they receive should be higher as it is reduced because tax was paid on the dividend. It has to be one ore the other or else the earnings in the super fund supporting the pension aren't tax free.
It would be like taking concessions of pensioners, why should they get concessions.
We had a big debate over it at the last election, typical rusted on though, just love seeing their mates cop it.


----------



## Humid (23 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Was that a typo?
> if the working class pay tax, then the franking credits will help them reduce Tax.
> Are you perhaps thinking of the SMSF luckies who actually get a refund rather than just a reduction in tax??
> Mick



Just trawling for a bite 
Got one on cue


----------



## Humid (23 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes Humid is a great believer, in the self funded and low income earners  not getting the franking credit, yet those who are in industry funds get to keep theirs. So like myself who fund my own retirement, if I had kept running my SMSF I would lose the franking credit, but if I transferred the money into an industry fund I kept it.
> The other issue was a lot of guys buy shares in their wives name, as they are stay at home mums for FIFO's etc so on lower tax rates most intelligent blue collar workers do it, the wives would have lost the franking credits.
> Yet billionaires, reduce the tax they pay by hundreds of millions of dollars, they get to keep them.
> Some people couldn't get their head around the fact that the franking credit is tax paid to the ATO on your behalf, whether that tax goes back to a self funded retiree, or a billionaire pays less tax, the net result is the same, the ATO doesn't get that tax.
> ...



You get used to your wife earning more than you


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I've said and the rusted on laborites gave me $hit for it, Billy was selling the working class down the toilet, blind Freddy could see that.
> 
> The article just shows workers have long memories, just in case silly Billy wants to put the knife in Albos back, like he did with Rudd/Gillard.




It also shows that women can be bad a$$ed bullies as well.


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It also shows that women can be bad a$$ed bullies as well.



I think the bullying in politics would be unbelievable, it takes a certain type of person to become politician, I've known a few guys that ran for office they were definitely not my type of people. They all had similar traits, which related to mouth size and head size. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Just trawling for a bite
> Got one on cue



As you know, I think it is an important issue, it basically negates the tax free status of the first $18,000 of earnings and the tax free status of your super in the pension phase. 
As you know and I said at the time, either do away franking credits completely, or do away with the tax free status of super and the first $18,000 of earnings. What silly Billy was suggesting was dumb then and is just as dumb now also the reason it was dropped.


----------



## PZ99 (23 March 2022)

Is it worth dropping the franking credits outright for raising the $18k earnings to say.. $25k ?

The issue was raised because it was blowing the budget exponentially.


----------



## wayneL (23 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As you know, I think it is an important issue, it basically negates the tax free status of the first $18,000 of earnings and the tax free status of your super in the pension phase.
> As you know and I said at the time, either do away franking credits completely, or do away with the tax free status of super and the first $18,000 of earnings. What silly Billy was suggesting was dumb then and is just as dumb now also the reason it was dropped.



Hah! Such suggestions for taxation reform opens a whole 'nuther can of worms, especially now that MMT has been extensively mooted in various quarters.

We could streamline the whole deal by eliminating this whole subterfuge I've giving with one hand and taking away with the other... Not to mention the elimination of a massive tranch of bureaucratic expense.

... and, if we brought back some manufacturing capacity to Australia we could give all those freshly redundant bureaucrats a taste of real life and what it means to have a real job.


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Is it worth dropping the franking credits outright for raising the $18k earnings to say.. $25k ?
> 
> The issue was raised because it was blowing the budget exponentially.



Exactly, but just targeting a small number fixes nothing.
With super, it is already capped how much you can have in pension phase anyway and the rest is taxed.
Im with you, just drop the franking credits all together, just taking it off the bottom end is dopey.
The issue was raised, to force smsf into industry funds, just Billy paying back favours IMO.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Just trawling for a bite
> Got one on cue



Hmm, it is becoming increasingly difficult to tell whether you are trawling, trolling, or trying to make a valid point.
Mick


----------



## Humid (24 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Hmm, it is becoming increasingly difficult to tell whether you are trawling, trolling, or trying to make a valid point.
> Mick



I'm not really into valid points.....does that help?


----------



## Humid (28 March 2022)

Whatever happened to the good of the people?









						The rot began with John Howard - Pearls and Irritations
					

Howard set the tone for what has followed over the last twenty plus years. He has been a significant influence on the LNP, helping determine the type of person running for parliamentary office.




					johnmenadue.com


----------



## mullokintyre (28 March 2022)

Humid said:


> I'm not really into valid points.....does that help?



No, but it explains a lot.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (9 April 2022)

Much has been about the Independence or lack thereof of the candidates in the upcoming Federal Election.
At this link is a list of all of the independent candidates "approved" by climate 200.
What is interesting about this  list of 20 Independents is the extreme lack of diversity
(1) The supported ones consist of 3 White Males and 17 white females. Not an Asian, African, middle eastern  or  aboriginal among the lot of them
(2).  of the 20, three are standing for the senate, two are already Independent members of electorates, and every one of the other 15 new candidate  independents are standing in Coalition held seats. Not one standing in one of the 68  Labour held seats, not one standing in   the  a green held seat, they are not even approving of an independent candidate  standing against pauline Hanson, UAP or Centre Aliance.
(3). The majority  are tertiary educated and work in the public arena, only two have any experience in the private arena. Not a single Tradie amongst them, no engineers, no IT techies, no truck drivers.
(4) None claim to have a disability or claim to belong/represent a gender diverse/sexual fluid  minority as defined by the LGBTIQ alphabet.
But, hey, they represent all of us.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (15 April 2022)

Surely after the huge problems caused by the High Court ruling on citizenship eligibilty to stand for election in OZ, that every single person, either in parliament or considering standing for parliament,  should have had water tight proof of their eligibility?
But no, a Liberal Senator who was parachuted into the senate has had to resign from the senate because of potential New Zealand Citizenship.
From the dreaded Murdoch press


> WA senator Ben Small has resigned from parliament after discovering he was a dual citizen of Australia and New Zealand.
> Mr Small made the bombshell announcement in a statement released on Friday, confirming he had fallen foul of section 44 of the Australian Constitution.
> 
> Mr Small said the dual citizenship first came to light on April 6, which was four days before Prime Minister Scott Morrison called the election.
> ...



The laws that applied at his birth are immaterial. 
What is important is the law that applied at the time of his accepting the nomination.
Another Liberal machine cockup.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (15 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Surely after the huge problems caused by the High Court ruling on citizenship eligibilty to stand for election in OZ, that every single person, either in parliament or considering standing for parliament,  should have had water tight proof of their eligibility?
> But no, a Liberal Senator who was parachuted into the senate has had to resign from the senate because of potential New Zealand Citizenship.
> From the dreaded Murdoch press
> 
> ...



There is some talk of Albo having automatic Italian citizenship, because of his father...

That would be entertaining if true.


----------



## wayneL (16 April 2022)

Matt Kean et Al appear to be in the wrong party, whose inane ravings have become indiscernible from Adam Bandt.


----------



## mullokintyre (16 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> There is some talk of Albo having automatic Italian citizenship, because of his father...
> 
> That would be entertaining if true.



Like most things potentially entertaining, iwould appear to be incorrect.
According to the ALP via the dreaded murdoch press , Albo has no father named on his Birth certificate, so there can be no descendancy from  an Italian Father.
Since then, his mother has admitted that his father is Italian, who she met on an overseas trip.
But because there is no LEGAL  documents that tie Albo to an Italian father, its  got no legal basis.
iIf there was, you can garauntee that someone would have challenged it along with all the others in the High Court.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (16 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Matt Kean et Al appear to be in the wrong party, whose inane ravings have become indiscernible from Adam Bandt.



Yea, I never understood why the "boy minister" Kean didn't just join the greens and be done with it.
A lot of the NSW libs blame him for the leaks about glad texting unpleasant things about Scomo.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (23 May 2022)

Now that the election is over, and we appear to have a clear winner, the  spin goes into full supoer cycle mode.
Michael Maccormack , in a fairly obvious tilt at the LNP leadership again, reckons the coalition would have done a lot better under his leadership. ( see ABC News ).


> Former deputy prime minister Michael McCormack has said the Coalition would have performed better in the federal election if he was the leader of the National party.
> 
> Mr McCormack, the Member for Riverina, lost a leadership ballot to Barnaby Joyce last year and has repeatedly refused to rule out making another tilt at the leadership.
> 
> ...



He does not explain how his demise from the leadership caused the Liberal Decimation, nor does he explain how  having him still in the role instead of Joyce would have stopped everyone in those blue ribbon seats from supporting the teal women.
Another weird claim was that the Liberals had moved to far to the right, and were punished because of it. 
From Channel 7


> Monique Ryan is likely to seize the seat of Kooyong from outgoing Treasurer Josh Frydenberg, but he has yet to concede with thousands of postal votes still to be counted.
> 
> 
> Dr Ryan said she would guarantee confidence and supply to the incoming Labor government only if she was offered security on action on climate change and an integrity commission within a set period of time.
> ...



So come they went after the moderates of the liberal party almost exclusively?
The teals have effectively driven the party to the right.
Peter Dutton, one of the more righter than right coalition members, is likely to be anointed  as the next leader
There were some good outcomes.
1. Kristina Keneally getting dumped in favour of a local candidate.
2. Clive Palmer wasted huge amounts of money for a nil return.
3. Pauline Hanson did not gain any traction.
Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (23 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Now that the election is over, and we appear to have a clear winner, the  spin goes into full supoer cycle mode.
> Michael Maccormack , in a fairly obvious tilt at the LNP leadership again, reckons the coalition would have done a lot better under his leadership. ( see ABC News ).
> 
> He does not explain how his demise from the leadership caused the Liberal Decimation, nor does he explain how  having him still in the role instead of Joyce would have stopped everyone in those blue ribbon seats from supporting the teal women.
> ...



The party thought if they put the moderates in the City seats that would stop the backlash of moving to the right.
They weren't that moderate. Look at Barnaby standing up in comparison, they were mute. And if the Liberal Party are dumb enough to listen to Murdoch media and move to the right further they may as well commit Hari Kari now.
*This is how Menzies started the Liberal party and wiped out the too right wing United Australia party.*
He worked with the women in Australian society and dissociated the new Liberals from their Country party Allies (who are now the Nationals).
Don't think history cannot repeat. If a sizable section of the Libs and their base broke away and became the new centre right party the Libs would be gone.

I think people are more engaged at present than ever before and everyone is fed up with being managed by political insiders who are mostly lawyers.

Now we know that we can take out a member we will. It will cut both ways for Labor also. Social media makes it easier. Watch out!


----------



## mullokintyre (23 May 2022)

Must be something to do with the Macs.
Mark Macgowan has chimed in.
From ABC News


> WA Premier Mark McGowan has dismissed suggestions his popularity helped Labor poll well in his state.
> 
> He said new Prime Minister Anthony Albanese led a great campaign that helped capture the WA seats of Swan, Pearce, Hasluck and Tangney.
> 
> ...



I like that  comment about not appealing to mainstream Australia, whatever that is.
If you look at the real votes, as distinct from the two party preferred,





Macgowans party got less than a third of the vote, hardly a ringing endorsement.
Looking at it another way, one might say that two thirds of the mainstream Australians that this Macca is talking about,  didn't want his party.
Mere technicalities.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (23 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The party thought if they put the moderates in the City seats that would stop the backlash of moving to the right.
> They weren't that moderate. Look at Barnaby standing up in comparison, they were mute. And if the Liberal Party are dumb enough to listen to Murdoch media and move to the right further they may as well commit Hari Kari now.
> *This is how Menzies started the Liberal party and wiped out the too right wing United Australia party.*
> He worked with the women in Australian society and dissociated the new Liberals from their Country party Allies (who are now the Nationals).
> ...



It's not a question simply of left or right Knobby. There is the spectrum of liberty vs authoritarianism also.

In my opinion Dutton would be a mistake as he is far too authoritarian, but moving further towards labor-lite will be an even worse mistake.

IMO what Liberal voters want is a move to to the libertarian right, AKA classical liberalism in the English sense... 

Why would voters go for Labor Lite when there is a perfectly good Labor Party if you want that shyte.

Classical liberalism can be progressive socially, without sacrificing the tenets small government and fiscal responsibility. The recently deposed liberal government was anything but that... Authoritarian, socially conservative, fiscally profligate.

That is why they failed, not because they went postmodernists.


----------



## Craton (23 May 2022)

Interesting to see the votes for the two major parties falling to an all time low.


----------



## mullokintyre (24 May 2022)

Another piece of electoral trivia that did not seem to get widespread attention.
From Evil Murdoch Press


> The election has dropped Australia from fifth to 10th place in the OECD for its proportion of openly LGBT+ MPs in parliament.
> With the ouster of Liberals Trent Zimmerman, Tim Wilson, and Trevor Evans, there will be seven openly LGBT+ representatives among 227. This takes the proportion down from 4.4 per cent to 3.1 per cent.
> 
> The election leaves Labor representatives Penny Wong, Julian Hill, Nita Green, and Louise Pratt, Greens senator Janet Rice, and Liberal representatives Dean Smith and Angie Bell, according to data from a parliamentary library paper.
> ...



One group of minorities replaced with another group of minorities.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (24 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Another piece of electoral trivia that did not seem to get widespread attention.
> From Evil Murdoch Press
> 
> One group of minorities replaced with another group of minorities.
> Mick



What about Muslims, Greeks, Indians, or Satan worshippers ?

Don't they all deserve a place because of their ethnicity or beliefs  ?


----------



## Craton (24 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Another piece of electoral trivia that did not seem to get widespread attention.
> From Evil Murdoch Press
> 
> One group of minorities replaced with another group of minorities.
> Mick



Umm, "This takes the proportion down from 4.4 per cent to 3.1 per cent." so not exactly replaced.
I'd also say that it depends on how many from any particular group want to be a candidate or have the necessary skill sets and/or the emotional armour to cope with life in politics.


----------



## wayneL (24 May 2022)

Craton said:


> Umm, "This takes the proportion down from 4.4 per cent to 3.1 per cent." so not exactly replaced.
> I'd also say that it depends on how many from any particular group want to be a candidate or have the necessary skill sets and/or the emotional armour to cope with life in politics.



I have a little bit more of a meritocratic take on this.

In no way does minority status entitle you to any sort of representation by mere membership of such status, even if it is the moral responsibility for everybody else to offer representation to such minorities.

If however, any member of such minorities bring something to the table, bring it on.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 May 2022)

Nothing like creating an empire.
The Tas premier will introduce a bill to add 10 more seats to the parliament.
From ABC News 


> Tasmanian Premier Jeremy Rockliff says his government will table a bill in State Parliament to restore the state's House of Assembly to 35 seats before the end of this year.
> 
> The number of politicians in the chamber was slashed to 25 in the 1990s.
> 
> If the legislation passes, the size of the House would increase at the 2025 state election.



Can't wait to read the justification for  increasing the number of parasites by 40%.
Can Taswegians expect a 40% increase in service?
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Nothing like creating an empire.
> The Tas premier will introduce a bill to add 10 more seats to the parliament.
> From ABC News
> 
> ...





> Further to the proposed changes,  from an updated version of the ABc article above  puts it all in perspective
> 
> Mr Rockliff made the announcement during debate in parliament on a petition tabled by the Greens calling for the numbers to be restored.
> 
> ...



So why is it important, and why is it the right thing to do??
A cynic might suggest that its a convenient way  to lower the number of votes per seat so the greens and monor parties have a greater chance of picking up a seat.
More snouts in the trough.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (25 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So why is it important, and why is it the right thing to do??
> A cynic might suggest that its a convenient way  to lower the number of votes per seat so the greens and monor parties have a greater chance of picking up a seat.
> More snouts in the trough.
> Mick



The whole country is over governed. We have about half the population of California . State governments should go and be replaced b y expanded local governments and the Feds should  take over hospitals and schools.


----------



## wayneL (25 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The whole country is over governed. We have about half the population of California . State governments should go and be replaced b y expanded local governments and the Feds should  take over hospitals and schools.



LibDem policy 👍


----------



## Knobby22 (25 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So why is it important, and why is it the right thing to do??
> A cynic might suggest that its a convenient way  to lower the number of votes per seat so the greens and monor parties have a greater chance of picking up a seat.
> More snouts in the trough.
> Mick



He is a Lib though and they reduced the numbers originally.


----------



## PZ99 (25 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The whole country is over governed. We have about half the population of California . *State governments should go and be replaced b y expanded local governments* and the Feds should take over hospitals and schools.



That would effectively turn the states into territories. All state debt transferred to the feds and becomes something like $2 billion. That's your first hurdle.
The other one is the performance of the states against the feds when it comes to pandemics.
I would argue the most effective containment was the border closures despite the attempts by the feds to keep them open.

How about less seats in each state parliament and an amalgamation of councils instead ?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> How about less seats in each state parliament and an amalgamation of councils instead ?




That might be more practicable. There have been some council amalgamations in NSW I believe.


----------



## macca (25 May 2022)

I think if we expanded the role of councils and abolished the state parliaments it could work well.

Each council would need to be of reasonable size, no more boutique councils within Sydney, perhaps a Southern shore, Northern shore and a Western Subs sort of set up.

Each would have an elected board and receive funding from Federal money.

Some of the dumb things done by State Govts in spite of opposition from the local council are amazing.

EG: locally, a centrally located area, on the main road, was set aside for "state services" so they built a fire station, then an ambulance station then a new police station was needed.

The council said we have some free land for you, put it next door to the Ambos and all good.

Nope ! the state govt paid $700k for a house 4klms away in a suburban area, demolished it and built a new police station WTF


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 May 2022)

Always remember that the Australian Government by its own admission can't run a phone company or an airline under either party. That being so, don't for a moment expect them to run a country.

If we're going to reduce government then I'd start with limiting the powers of the feds to matters of national defence and not much else. At least the states and local actually get something done even if imperfectly.

If the new government changes that then I'll change my opinion obviously.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Always remember that the Australian Government by its own admission can't run a phone company or an airline under either party. That being so, don't for a moment expect them to run a country.
> 
> If we're going to reduce government then I'd start with limiting the powers of the feds to matters of national defence and not much else. At least the states and local actually get something done even if imperfectly.
> 
> If the new government changes that then I'll change my opinion obviously.




Things are probably better done at a local level if the resources are there, but there should be some centralised monitoring of results so that best practices can be transmitted to all facilities around the country.

eg if a hospital in Sydney finds a better means of infection control then the central monitor would transmit that to all hospitals in the country and everyone would be better off, rather than lots of units being insular and not talking to anyone else.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 May 2022)

The greens seem to generate a lot of hate and angst.
This little gem was sent to me by a member of my family.





The lovely comments by Celeste Liddle ranks up there with Hilary Clinton's "deplorables" comment about how to bring people together.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (26 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The greens seem to generate a lot of hate and angst.
> This little gem was sent to me by a member of my family.
> View attachment 142175
> 
> ...



Nutters like Bandt and Thorpe will continue to promulgate hate and division. Plibersek(sp?) got off to a bad start as well. The minions will take their lead.

It's going to be interesting to see if Albo  gives this crap a free rein, or not. 

I'm not that hopeful.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Nutters like Bandt and Thorpe will continue to promulgate hate and division. Plibersek(sp?) got off to a bad start as well. The minions will take their lead.
> 
> It's going to be interesting to see if Albo  gives this crap a free rein, or not.
> 
> I'm not that hopeful.



The lovely Celeste  has a nice pice about her on the Greens Web page


> I’ve lived in this area for over two decades. Preston market is my local and I’m a big supporter of our live music scene. Our community is *diverse* and creative, and has one of the highest proportions of Indigenous people in Victoria. We need a representative from a truly progressive party that’s powered by people instead of big corporate donors.



Celeste  likes diversity, as long as the diversity agrees with her thinking.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (26 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's going to be interesting to see if Albo gives this crap a free rein, or not.




He hasn't. He 'suggested' to Plibersek that she apologise to Dutton and she has.


----------



## PZ99 (26 May 2022)

Tanya Plibersek should know better which is no wonder Albo told her to zip it.

We just voted out hate and angst from the right. Don't need it coming from the left.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 May 2022)

it seems that the poer drunk egotistical premiers just can't help themselves.
Under the guise  of fighting drug importation,  WA police have been given new search powers that even the Premier is unceratain as to what the extent will be.
FromABC News



> The WA Premier says a proposed expansion of police search powers "absolutely" does not amount to government overreach but could not say if officers would be able to search peoples' phones.
> 
> Key points:​
> The Premier says the changes are aimed at stopping drug importations
> ...



Well if they are not broad stop and search powers, put it in writing instead of the vague crap they give.
One thing that has been consistently shown is that Police in all jurisdictions will always overstep  when they think they have unfettered powers.
We in Victoria saw it time and time again during the pandemic when they completely overeacted on so many occasions, pepper spraying people, arresting pregnant women over face book posts, taking the phones of old ladies as the filmed police overeaction.
There have been two court cases instigated this week by journalists  who were pepper sprayed by over zealous police.
The old saying about power corrupting, and absolute power corrupting absolutely, never rang more tru.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (26 May 2022)

The queensland premier has now joined the queue to ban "symbols of Hate", such as the Swastika from being displayed in Queenlans.
From Queensland Government 



> Multicultural Affairs Minister Leanne Linard said she supported the introduction of legislation that addressed serious vilification and hate crimes against culturally diverse groups.
> 
> “I meet and work with people from across our ethnically diverse state every day and have heard first-hand of the devastating effects of vilification and hate crimes”, Ms Linard said.
> 
> ...




I look forward to them adding this symbol of hate to the list.


----------



## moXJO (26 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> it seems that the poer drunk egotistical premiers just can't help themselves.
> Under the guise  of fighting drug importation,  WA police have been given new search powers that even the Premier is unceratain as to what the extent will be.
> FromABC News
> 
> ...



I was hoping this authoritarian reach would stop under Labor. But lib and Labor states seem to be pushing further with this bullsht.


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> I was hoping this authoritarian reach would stop under Labor. But lib and Labor states seem to be pushing further with this bullsht.



When they're on a roll and there is no resistance, push the boundaries. 
They never know when these opportunities will present again, may as well get laws in place, that might be useful down the track.


----------



## moXJO (26 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> When they're on a roll and there is no resistance, push the boundaries.
> They never know when these opportunities will present again, may as well get laws in place, that might be useful down the track.



What's worse is people squat down and lick boot with glee. Then ask for more. It's embarrassing.


----------



## wayneL (28 May 2022)

I was pleased to see Jacinta Price got a Senate seat. She will be a great counter to Lydia Thorpe.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 May 2022)

Kristina Keneally  like most political failures blames outside influences for her defeat by another female immigrant.
The red bandana boy gave her s sympathetic hearing.
from  SMH


> The most important factor was COVID and its impacts ... Fowler had the harshest and longest lockdowns in the state, supported by both Liberal and Labor, and there was an understandable sense of anger at both major parties, with people reacting with “a pox on both your houses”. At the same time you had a strong independent candidate running, and a wealthy person in Clive Palmer bankrolling the UAP – and while the UAP didn’t win any seats the impact that Palmer had was to drive down major party primary votes and deprive the major parties of Senate seats and preferences in lower house seats.



No consideration to the idea that perhaps her opponent ran a better campaign,  was part of the local community, had not been parachuted into a western suburbs seat from the uber rich areas of the North Shore, or perhaps voters just don't like her.
No she says its all Clive Palmers fault, and a general pox on both your houses due to lockdown.
This  despite the fact that all the lockdowns were  not put in place at a federal level, but put in place by state governments, and in the case of this particular NSW seat, a Liberal one at that. 
Nah, does not compute.
Surely now the labor party will finalise realise she is pretty much unelectable.
Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (29 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Kristina Keneally  like most political failures blames outside influences for her defeat by another female immigrant.
> The red bandana boy gave her s sympathetic hearing.
> from  SMH
> 
> ...



Yea, her political career is finished. But good on SMH for interviewing her. Nice to get her take even if it does betray her lack of self awareness.

Did you see the other well thought article about the Teals? That they are basically a franchise? And like McDonald's, once they get common they appear everywhere. The article stated the safe Labor seats will be targeted next election.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, her political career is finished. But good on SMH for interviewing her. Nice to get her take even if it does betray her lack of self awareness.
> 
> Did you see the other well thought article about the Teals? That they are basically a franchise? And like McDonald's, once they get common they appear everywhere. The article stated the safe Labor seats will be targeted next election.



You mean This one ?
Interesting analysis, but  not sure if I accept the premise.
Time will tell as to whether the franchise model targets inner city labour seats at the next election or not.
We have the best part of four years to  wait.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (29 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, her political career is finished. But good on SMH for interviewing her. Nice to get her take even if it does betray her lack of self awareness.
> 
> Did you see the other well thought article about the Teals? That they are basically a franchise? And like McDonald's, once they get common they appear everywhere. The article stated the safe Labor seats will be targeted next election.



Simon installed as El Presidente?


----------



## Knobby22 (29 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Simon installed as El Presidente?



You mean Governor General! 😀
Can't see it myself.


----------



## PZ99 (30 May 2022)

He should be treasurer...
$10m for 10 seats... Clive Palmer $100m for no seats 

As for Kristina Keneally, her name should be added to the ASF swear filter.
Frankly I hope this favouritism costs Labor their majority. Nothing gets my goat up more than working your backside off for years only to get passed over because of some blow-in bimbo with NFI about the job.

Penny Wong is another irritant on my sheet list - but at least she's done a few hard yards...  Keneally has done jack all.

_"It's a pretty ugly table guys"_​


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2022)

PZ99 said:


> He should be treasurer...
> $10m for 10 seats... Clive Palmer $100m for no seats
> 
> As for Kristina Keneally, her name should be added to the ASF swear filter.
> ...




I'm sure they will find something for Kristina to do. She may end up a Minister's Chief of Staff or something.

As long as we can't hear her whining voice.


----------



## PZ99 (30 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure they will find something for Kristina to do. She may end up a Minister's Chief of Staff or something.
> 
> As long as we can't hear her whining voice.



LOL. I think she should do herself and the country a favour. They didn't go all the way with KmKK either 









						Keneally pays back puppet masters
					

THE Premier, Kristina Keneally, will reward the dumped ministers John Della Bosca and Ian Macdonald by reinstating them to senior positions in a cabinet reshuffle this weekend.




					www.smh.com.au
				



"Rewarding the plotters against the former premier Nathan Rees will fuel criticism that Ms Keneally is a ''puppet'' of powerbrokers *Eddie Obeid*, Joe Tripodi, Mr Della Bosca and *Mr Macdonald*, who all backed her into the leadership *against the wishes of Labor's head office*."

Familiar names right ? 

I CAC myself every time I hear that voice


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (30 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure they will find something for Kristina to do. She may end up a Minister's Chief of Staff or something.
> 
> As long as we can't hear her whining voice.



Ambassador to USA unfortunately. 

KK always ends jam side up.

gg


----------



## Knobby22 (30 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Ambassador to USA unfortunately.
> 
> KK always ends jam side up.
> 
> gg



Born in Las Vegas, grew up in Ohio. Has an Aussie Mum from Brisbane! Didn't know that.
Ambassador for sure.


----------



## wayneL (30 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> You mean Governor General! 😀
> Can't see it myself.



It's a simple referendum and people have been proven to be dumb enough to fall for anything. I'm being facetious of course, but I wouldn't rule anything out in these Foucaultian days.


----------



## wayneL (30 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> KK always ends jam side up.




I always find that curious. What power does she have over the Labor Party?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> I always find that curious. What power does she have over the Labor Party?




She's a woman.


----------



## basilio (30 May 2022)

National Party kicks out Barnaby Joyce.

Just great.  Maybe some integrity and intelligence at last. 









						David Littleproud elected new Nationals leader with Perin Davey as deputy
					

Barnaby Joyce has been defeated by the Queensland MP in a leadership spill




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2022)

basilio said:


> National Party kicks out Barnaby Joyce.
> 
> Just great.  Maybe some integrity and intelligence at last.
> 
> ...



I just hope the new Government move forward quickly to mitigate climate change, corruption and anything else that people are upset about.

Also I hope they have the same enthusiasm, to vent endlessly, if it doesn't happen. I love enthusiasm, but I hate when it has a bias.  

I am hoping for great things from a new Government, but I have lived long enough, not to hold my breath.
Enthusiasm wanes with age and disappointment.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 June 2022)

I see Andrew Wilkie has put his hand up to become speaker in the new parliament.
Would be a good move to have an independent speaker,  and Wilkie has been around parliament long enough to know the workings, the rules , protocols and of course "the conventions". Hates both sides of politics sufficiently to  be non partisan.
Mick


----------



## PZ99 (1 June 2022)

Scott Morrison's dismissal has been ruled as "fair" by the Fair Work Commission 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06...ith-student-fairly-dismissed-appeal/101115184


----------



## SirRumpole (1 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I see Andrew Wilkie has put his hand up to become speaker in the new parliament.
> Would be a good move to have an independent speaker,  and Wilkie has been around parliament long enough to know the workings, the rules , protocols and of course "the conventions". Hates both sides of politics sufficiently to  be non partisan.
> Mick




Wilke would be good, but now Labor has 77 seats they will probably appoint one of their own.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 June 2022)

Well, if they appoint one of their own, they only have a bare 1 seat majority.
As Morrison found out, a slim margin can turn into no margin if one of them cracks it like Kelly or George  whathisname, or does something illegal/stupid like  roberts  or just gets shafted by the media (will have to be the murdoch press this time rather than the ABC/fairfax/Guardian alliance).
There are plenty of candidates in the new labour party members list to fit any of the scenarios.
By having an independaet  speaker allows him to show is non partisan credentials, always good  with the media.
The question then becomes  "is  Albo is a pragmatic bloke enough bloke to ignore the Labour apparatchiks seeking revenge  for the partisan behaviour of the coalition apparatchiks ?"
Time will tell.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (1 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As Morrison found out, a slim margin can turn into no margin if one of them cracks it like Kelly or George whathisname, or does something illegal/stupid like roberts or just gets shafted by the media (will have to be the murdoch press this time rather than the ABC/fairfax/Guardian alliance).




I wonder where Peter Slipper is now.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder where Peter Slipper is now.



Who cares?
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (1 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Who cares?
> Mick




Well, if they lose 2 or more they might be forced to choose an Independant, but generally they want to stick with one of their own if they can.


----------



## basilio (1 June 2022)

I think Andrew Wilkie would make a very good Speaker.  From a self interested  Labour POV this could be seen as giving too much power/credence to an outsider. On the other hand I think it would show a genuine effort at having a quality independent Speaker.  This would also act as a discipline on Labour as much as any other party. 

In the end I believe Labour should be seeking to  model good and fair governance. If that POV is accepted then the argument for an independent speaker of Andrew Wilkies experience and integrity should get up.  We'll see.


----------



## basilio (1 June 2022)

There is an excellent analysis in The Guardian on the way Australians voted against the Coalition.  Certainly suggests that if the Coalition doesn't accept the Labour,/Greens/Teal mandate for decisive action on CC they will have buckleys chance of getting back in power.









						Five graphs that show how Australian voters turned on the Coalition
					

The primary vote for both major parties dropped dramatically, but in the Coalition’s case, it cost it 18 seats. Here’s how the numbers played out




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2022)

basilio said:


> There is an excellent analysis in The Guardian on the way Australians voted against the Coalition.  Certainly suggests that if the Coalition doesn't accept the Labour,/Greens/Teal mandate for decisive action on CC they will have buckleys chance of getting back in power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My guess is the Labor/Greens/Teal's resolve will be tested over the next three years, as will the public's, when they have to make some extremely hard choices.
Just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is the Labor/Greens/Teal's resolve will be tested over the next three years, as will the public's, when they have to make some extremely hard choices.
> Just my opinion.




The Teals appear to some to  be a bunch a group of yuppies who don't have to bear the brunt of inflation/ power price rises so if that difference can be pursued then they are vulnerable. If Labor goes too hard on emissions reduction without keeping prices down then they could be vulnerable too.

As you say, hard choices.


----------



## wayneL (2 June 2022)

And when we're sitting in cold homes around candles, and riding donkeys to the shop for the slim pickings available, while the rest of the world merrily burns our coal?

Our virtue signalling is going to cost us dearly.


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> And when we're sitting in cold homes around candles, and riding donkeys to the shop for the slim pickings available, while the rest of the world merrily burns our coal?
> 
> Our virtue signalling is going to cost us dearly.



As the election showed, the city elites are running the agenda at the moment and I personally think it is a good thing.
The renewables issue needs resolving, so bringing it to a head will clear the air once and for all, people need to decide how much they are prepared to pay to mitigate their carbon footprint.
Then we can move on, rather than going round and round in a media circle, now they can't blame this new Government, now the way forward has to be decided.
The previous Government was upgrading the HV transmission and installing more hydro storage in the Snowy and Tassie, to facilitate renewables.
The generation side they were leaving to the market to sort out, with the coal generators becoming less and less viable, the legacy companies were having to come to terms with losing market share to renewables, or having to change their generation to renewables.

Now the new Government appears that it will force the issue which will be interesting, because IMO the legacy companies will have to be somehow compensated if the Government is going to actively interfere in their operation.
As @SirRumpole said, it could very well end up another NBN, where instead of making the telco's pay to put in the fibre the tax payer did.
This time it could well be the Government having to buy the coal generators out and then pay them to run the plant and the taxpayer pick up the tab, while the generators use the money to install renewables. 

Time will tell, but it may pan out very well for the legacy companies, not so well for the public.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 June 2022)

N


wayneL said:


> And when we're sitting in cold homes around candles, and riding donkeys to the shop for the slim pickings available, while the rest of the world merrily burns our coal?
> 
> Our virtue signalling is going to cost us dearly.



Not just "virtue signalling", but  inaction and bungling by the former Federal government that has seen us still reliant on fossil fuels with little planning for switch-over to renewables.


----------



## IFocus (2 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As the election showed, the city elites are running the agenda at the moment and I personally think it is a good thing.
> The renewables issue needs resolving, so bringing it to a head will clear the air once and for all, people need to decide how much they are prepared to pay to mitigate their carbon footprint.
> Then we can move on, rather than going round and round in a media circle, now they can't blame this new Government, now the way forward has to be decided.
> The previous Government was upgrading the HV transmission and installing more hydro storage in the Snowy and Tassie, to facilitate renewables.
> ...





Isn't the problem that  gas is required for transition and given the absurdity of pricing / availability (east coast) the whole thing is a mess.

Plus there is no mechanism to fix.


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2022)

IFocus said:


> Isn't the problem that  gas is required for transition and given the absurdity of pricing / availability (east coast) the whole thing is a mess.
> 
> Plus there is no mechanism to fix.



Well as renewables are ramping up we are in the perfect position to fix it, now we have a Government that is focused on a non fossil fueled generation future, I for one am watching with great interest.
There should be no reason not to ramp up the renewables and phase out the gas, as it is too costly and the Greens/Teals don't want it anyway.
Perfect opportunity to move to renewables, they actually couldn't ask for a better scenario, renewables are cheaper, cleaner, less workers, less failures, what's the issue?
By the way, I'm as Green as the best of them, just a realist after having worked in the industry and understanding the fundamentals.
People are getting way too emotional, about something that is very  practical, recently I have bought an electricity supplier shares and a gas supplier shares not because I think they are long term winners, but short term?
I've never bought into either sectors before and I've been buying shares since 1988.
Just checked I bought AGL and Woodside in December, $6 and $22, I'm hoping for some interesting gains before xmas, but I've been wrong before.


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## wayneL (2 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> N
> 
> Not just "virtue signalling", but  inaction and bungling by the former Federal government that has seen us still reliant on fossil fuels with little planning for switch-over to renewables.



Renewables just aren't going to do it.

Hence a third world lifestyle for anyone not taking matters into their own hands.


----------



## sptrawler (3 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> N
> 
> Not just "virtue signalling", but  inaction and bungling by the former Federal government that has seen us still reliant on fossil fuels with little planning for switch-over to renewables.



Interesting comment.
Maybe you could expand on what you think should have been done, as you do have a grasp of the issues unlike some.
Or are we all trying to turn the narrative, in expectation of an immanent failure, of the current Govt and the renewable sunrise future?


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## SirRumpole (3 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting comment.
> Maybe you could expand on what you think should have been done, as you do have a grasp of the issues unlike some.
> Or are we all trying to turn the narrative, in expectation of an immanent failure, of the current Govt and the renewable sunrise future?



Sure. Given that I'm not an industry insider , if these ideas can be torn down on technical grounds then I'll take my lumps.

1. Instead of a gas 'trigger' we should have a permanent gas and coal reservation scheme like WA to shelter the economy from external factors.

2. We should put an export tax on coal, gas, iron ore, bauxite and all other non renewable minerals and use the proceeds to

     * provide subsidies to local manufacturers and households to install solar cells , solar hot water and battery storage

    * upgrade transmission infrastructure, connectors , wires etc to ensure efficient distribution.

    * upgrade hydro facilities on existing dams where possible and investigate more potential hydro sites including coastal.

    * restore the Clean Energy finance corporate to to provide loans for new large scale solar, battery and wind projects.

    * consider installing more gas turbine peaking plants that can run on a variety of fuels including hydrogen and bio fuels

    * fund more R&D in the fields of energy production including more efficient solar cells , hydrogen production and battery technology

I'm sure that there are a lot of other things that could be done, but if the above had been done by our former government then we would be years ahead of where we are now.

Smurf gave credit to Turnbull for Snowy Hydro and I agree, at least he was a pragmatist about what needed to be done in the future. He's right about another thing too, ideology has to go and be replaced by a technical and science driven policy.


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## sptrawler (3 June 2022)

Agree 100%.
With the gas like W.A, Queensland should have had placed a reserve policy as I would think the gas is in the State jurisdiction and they get royalties off it. I may be wrong but like with the Scarborough gas project in the NW of W.A some falls under State and that which is further out falls under Federal.
Also as Smurf pointed out, apparently there are several other options, other than Snowy 2.0, where pumped hydro can be installed.


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## wayneL (3 June 2022)

Perhaps, while everyone is virtue signalling about cutting emmisions and fanciful schemes, people should just cut their consumption to the levels of "the good old days".


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## sptrawler (3 June 2022)

What, go back to one T.V no air conditioner, no bar fridge, sounds like the son living off grid. 🤣

Could you imagine the new generation giving up their electronic devices, I don't think so.
I've mentioned it before, if we could go back to living as we did in the 1960, all the coal generation could probably be shut down.


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## PZ99 (3 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What, go back to one T.V no air conditioner, no bar fridge, sounds like the son living off grid. 🤣
> 
> Could you imagine the new generation giving up their electronic devices, I don't think so.
> I've mentioned it before, if we could go back to living as we did in the 1960, all the coal generation could probably be shut down.



The weather wasn't a problem back then - everyone just dressed up in black and white 👓

I could easily give up the electronics but sadly I've got no way of proving on here 

In any case, all my bills are paid well in advance.


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## wayneL (3 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Could you imagine the new generation giving up their electronic devices, I don't think so.



But they'll glue themselves to the road, demanding "climate action".

Classic cognitive dissonance.


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## basilio (4 June 2022)

*How did the The Greens manage to win an extra 3 Brisbane House of Reps seats?  *Where do they go next ?

Check out this story on the hundreds of thousands of one to one conversations the Greens had with voters which ultimately resulted in electoral victory. (By the way this model was also the basis for the Teal candidates getting elected)

Knock-on effect: Greens to target ‘quiet Australians’ with winning campaign template​Having claimed three Brisbane seats by door-knocking and listening, party now has sights set on the suburbs




‘Where we’re able to do that sort of community organising and door-knocking, our vote surges’: New Griffith Greens MP Max Chandler-Mather out in the community during the election campaign. Photograph: Jono Searle/AAP





Ben Smee

@BenSmee
Fri 3 Jun 2022 21.00 BSTLast modified on Fri 3 Jun 2022 22.01 BST


Brisbane’s new Greens MPs talk about the moments they “flipped” voters – the driveway conversions of climate unbelievers or hostile folks who had only ever supported the major parties.

The party’s “social work” style doorknocking campaign – focused on building relationships and listening to voters’ material concerns rather than spruiking – proved wildly successful in Brisbane, culminating in the capture of three federal seats.

Now, the Greens are planning to vastly expand the strategy’s footprint, to take on political contests in the outer suburbs.

“Once you have that experience [of successfully engaging a voter], you realise that the only barrier to expanding our representation is our capacity to organise,” says Max Chandler-Mather, the architect of the strategy and the new federal MP for Griffith.
“What’s proven with our campaign methods is that where we’re able to do that sort of community organising and door-knocking, our vote surges.

“That organisational foundation we’ve built is going to allow us to project out across the state quickly.”









						Knock-on effect: Greens to target ‘quiet Australians’ with winning campaign template
					

Having claimed three Brisbane seats by door-knocking and listening, party now has sights set on the suburbs




					www.theguardian.com


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## wayneL (4 June 2022)

God help us 😲


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## mullokintyre (6 June 2022)

One of the beauties of personal door knocking over mass advertising is that you can really target your marketing.
Firstly, because the AEC and truth in advertising are not aware of what the door knockers say, they can say just about anything they like and get away witth it.
Secondly, depending on the size  of the buildings, the cars in the driveway, how many  solar panels they have on the roof, the canvasser has a reasonable handle on the level of affluence of the target audience. 
Thus they can tailor their spiel to the potential biases  of the householder.
It matters little whether there is any truth, substance, logic or accuracy in the spiel, just whether it might resonate with the recipient.
Mick


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## IFocus (6 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> God help us 😲





Haha and it looks like getting worse next election they are going to target more Labor seats Greens will then have a real say in Government, you wanted the majors to get rolled be careful what you wish for.

Interestingly Barrie Cassidy said the other day he expects this to be the last election  where one of the majors wins out right as the primary vote trend continues to decline for Labor / Coalition.


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## PZ99 (6 June 2022)

If Labor or Coalition want votes back it's pretty simple. Stop hating each other to the point where the gotcha is gold. It isn't.

Labor just couldn't go with the pacific solution because they played no part in it so they came up with something worse.

Liberal just couldn't go with the NBN because they played no part in it so they came up with something worse.

They are sooo good at demonstrating the very faults they see in their opponents.


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## sptrawler (6 June 2022)

Ex Western Australian Premier Colin Barnett sums up the situation with politics and gas pretty well.
There are a couple of errors which I expect are printing errors (the NW to Moomba gas pipe wouldn't go across the Nullabor I wouldn't expect and the Karratha to Kalgoorlie pipe has a max diameter of  450mm, not 132 inch which is bizarre at nearly 3.5metres.









						Former WA premier says Labor set to hold power for decade, calls for trans-continental gas pipeline
					

Anthony Albanese's election as Prime Minister likely heralds a "decade of Labor" in power, Colin Barnett says, adding his old party is in a "desperate situation" at a federal and state level.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
_A former Liberal premier says Anthony Albanese's election as Prime Minister likely heralds a "decade of Labor" in power, saying his old party is in a "desperate situation" at a federal and state level.
Colin Barnett, WA premier between 2008 and 2017, said the Liberal Party needed to modernise itself by recruiting a new generation of future leaders.
"The Liberal Party is in a desperate situation," Mr Barnett told Afternoon Briefing.
"And I think Australia's is looking at a scenario of probably a decade of Labor, and in Western Australia the same, so this is a bad time for the Liberal Party.

In WA, both the Labor and Liberal parties support a policy of gas reservation under which 15 per cent of gas produced must be set aside for the domestic market.
No other state or territory has such a policy.
This has meant that while wholesale gas is between $5.50 and $6.50 a gigajoule in WA, it is $40 a gigajoule in the eastern states after the regulator slapped producers with a price cap.
About 90 per cent of Australia's gas reserves are off WA's north-western coast, with most of the big gas fields in Commonwealth waters.
"Put simply, the gas belongs to Australia," Mr Barnett said.

"The policy about giving gas and energy security to the major cities of Australia, south-east Australia, really have been very inept for the last 15 years. There hasn't been long-term planning.
Mr Barnett said Australia should commission a gas pipeline between WA and South Australia's Moomba gas fields to bolster domestic supply.

"We need to do what other countries around the world have done and that is build a trans-Australian gas pipeline," he told the ABC.

"It would be a big project and expensive project, but it is one that would pay for itself and could be done quite easily by private enterprise. Most continents around the world have trans-continental pipelines  the Americas, Europe and so on."
He estimated such a pipeline would cost about $6 billion but said Mr Albanese could embrace it as a "big nation-building project" funded by Australian superannuation funds.
"There are no mountain ranges in the way, no real barriers, and a pipeline would go from the north-west coast of Western Australia, across the Nullarbor and into the Moomba gas field area in South Australia and then distributed more widely through the east coast through existing pipelines."

He said that in his time as premier, a 1,500km, 132-inch pipeline between the Pilbara to Kalgoorlie was built in 10 months.

"So if a decision was made today to go down the path of the trans-Australian pipeline, it would take three years — the major delay would be simply procuring the steel pipe," he said.

"And Australia, being such a major producer of international gas, really should be doing it for its own people.

"After all, it's Australia's gas."_


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## basilio (22 June 2022)

So which story is political reporting and which one is not... ?

Indigenous leaders lament debate over $25m Harbour Bridge flag plan​








						'It's a joke': Indigenous leaders lament debate over $25m Harbour Bridge flag plan
					

Indigenous leaders say a debate about the cost of installing a third flag pole on the Sydney Harbour Bridge, which also includes the refurbishment and replacement of two existing poles, is being used to divide people.




					www.abc.net.au
				





*REVEALED: Itemised costings for installing flag on Sydney Harbour Bridge
 *
Yesterday NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet revealed that a $25 million contract had been awarded to install an Aboriginal flag on top of the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

While we were ecstatic to win the installation contract, we were not prepared for the backlash from the general public. In the interests of transparency, we have agreed to release the line-by-line costings for the installation project.   









						REVEALED: Itemised costings for installing flag on Sydney Harbour Bridge
					

News you can believe in




					www.theshovel.com.au


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## wayneL (22 June 2022)

The Shovel is on the money.


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## sptrawler (23 June 2022)

Well it looks as though things are starting to get real, some of the hard decisions required are manifesting.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/actu-sally-mcmanus-reserve-bank-wages-inflation/101176680
Key points:​
Ms McManus says the RBA was not "in touch with reality"
She argues unions are incapable of delivering across-the-board wage rises in line with headline inflation
The Labor government has backed RBA's view on real wage cut


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## mullokintyre (23 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well it looks as though things are starting to get real, some of the hard decisions required are manifesting.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/actu-sally-mcmanus-reserve-bank-wages-inflation/101176680
> Key points:​
> Ms McManus says the RBA was not "in touch with reality"
> ...



Although I agree with the premise, Ms Mcmanus is hardly in a position to determine who or who is not in touch with reality.
If as she says, Unions are incapable of delivering across the board wage rises in line with headline inflation, what on earth is the point of joining one?
Is is perhaps no great surprise that the percentage of working folk joining unions in the private sector has been consistently declining.
Mick


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## sptrawler (23 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Although I agree with the premise, Ms Mcmanus is hardly in a position to determine who or who is not in touch with reality.
> If as she says, Unions are incapable of delivering across the board wage rises in line with headline inflation, what on earth is the point of joining one?
> Is is perhaps no great surprise that the percentage of working folk joining unions in the private sector has been consistently declining.
> Mick



I was always in a union and they can do great things, but the union is only as good as those who are in it and those who represent their members.
If you have lazy members, it doesn't work, if you have lazy reps it doesn't work.
It is like every organisation be it a charity, a social club, a union, or a political party, a lot depends on the integrity of those at the top.
No matter how hard the hamsters at the bottom are pedaling, it is those at the top who are steering it.


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## PZ99 (23 June 2022)

You can thank the last 2 decades of Govt policy for that. Australia is one of the most oppressive countries in the world when it comes to banning a basic right to strike and without that right, your union won't get very far.

So why join one? Because if you don't you'll probably end up like all those thousands of workers that  are victims of rampant wage theft. Taking legal action against your employer without the backing of a union is career suicide.


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## mullokintyre (23 June 2022)

Dominic Perrotet was on the Ball when he suggested thgt 28 Million to place a large Aboriginal Flag on the  Sydney Harbour Bridge.\ did not pass the Pub Test, and joined the chorus of guffaws,
Unfortunately for Dominic, his radar on what does or does not pass the pub test was grossly astray when he allowed the former  National Party leader and coalition vice premier to be appointed as trade ambassador for NSW.
Jobs for the boys, the D$#%heads just can't help them selves.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (23 June 2022)

Seems like Dan Andrews  may be in a spot of bother if the number of rats deserting the sinking ship syndrome is anything to go by.
Apart from the seven MP's Mark Gepp, Richard Wynne Jill Hennesy , Dustin Halse , John Eren , Jane Garett and Danielle Green who all resigned immediately   within a two week period  back in December 2021, the was Luke Donellan  who resigned in October of the  branch stacking recordings, and of course there was Adam Somnurek who may well recontest as an independant over the same issue.
And then of course there was Jenny Mikakos who was thrown under a bus by Andrews over the mess that became Covid back in June 2021.
None of them will be recontesting for Labour.
Early in 2022 we had Labour MP Vaghela Kaushallys  forced to resign after crossing the floor  over the so called "red shirts "investigation.
Today we have had the announcement that Deputy Premier James Merlino, Health Minister Martin Foley, Industry Support, Tourism, Sport and Major Events Minister Martin Pakula and Police and Water Minister Lisa Neville are all set to step down from cabinet and not contest the November state election.
Thats a total  of 15 members who will not be contesting for the Labour party.
Lucky he had a wacking great majority or he may have run out of fodder.
Mick


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## Smurf1976 (24 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well it looks as though things are starting to get real, some of the hard decisions required are manifesting.



We've had a smoke and mirrors economy for an extremely long time now and it's only good luck with mineral prices combined with spending the past and borrowing from the future that has kept real wages up.

People are in for one hell of a shock.


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## SirRumpole (24 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Dominic Perrotet was on the Ball when he suggested thgt 28 Million to place a large Aboriginal Flag on the  Sydney Harbour Bridge.\ did not pass the Pub Test, and joined the chorus of guffaws,
> Unfortunately for Dominic, his radar on what does or does not pass the pub test was grossly astray when he allowed the former  National Party leader and coalition vice premier to be appointed as trade ambassador for NSW.
> Jobs for the boys, the D$#%heads just can't help them selves.
> Mick




Th best thing e can do is get rid of the Union Jack on our flag and replace it with the Aboriginal flag, then everyone (almost) will be happy.


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## wayneL (24 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Th best thing e can do is get rid of the Union Jack on our flag and replace it with the Aboriginal flag, then everyone (almost) will be happy.



I think your well wide of the mark on that one, Horace.


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## SirRumpole (24 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> I think your well wide of the mark on that one, Horace.




Why is that wayne ?


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## wayneL (24 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Why is that wayne ?



Disclaimer: I don't give a fig about flags themselves, they're a piece of cloth with pretty colours. But people do embrace what flags signify, the politics behind them.

Firstly, there are many for whom the current flag is important, veterans, monarchists, its, conservatives (in the literal sense).

Secondly, the aboriginal flag was created to specifically represent the indigenous and somewhat a flag if protest. For many indigenous, it represents separatism and self rule and they would be deeply unhappy for it to represent whitefellas. See here https://theconversation.com/dont-sa...-it-belongs-to-us-not-the-commonwealth-175623

Adoption of the Aboriginal flag national cycling undoubtedly create even more division tha has been artificially created by the politics around the current flag.

If we collectively decide that we must have a new flag for whatever reason, must be representative of Australians. It should seek to unify and not to divide.

See here


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## SirRumpole (24 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> Disclaimer: I don't give a fig about flags themselves, they're a piece of cloth with pretty colours. But people do embrace what flags signify, the politics behind them.
> 
> Firstly, there are many for whom the current flag is important, veterans, monarchists, its, conservatives (in the literal sense).
> 
> ...




I get what you are saying and I don't entirely disagree. 

The Eureka flag is a similar symbol which would not engage everyone.

So yeah, maybe come up with a different design that makes most people happy. Attempts have been made before but seem to have gone nowhere.





__





						alternative australian flag - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


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## PZ99 (24 June 2022)

No appetite for changing it from me. Makes me feel like we're rewriting history if we change it.

I'm all for the republic if it's the right model but leave the flag as is


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## moXJO (24 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Seems like Dan Andrews  may be in a spot of bother if the number of rats deserting the sinking ship syndrome is anything to go by.
> Apart from the seven MP's Mark Gepp, Richard Wynne Jill Hennesy , Dustin Halse , John Eren , Jane Garett and Danielle Green who all resigned immediately   within a two week period  back in December 2021, the was Luke Donellan  who resigned in October of the  branch stacking recordings, and of course there was Adam Somnurek who may well recontest as an independant over the same issue.
> And then of course there was Jenny Mikakos who was thrown under a bus by Andrews over the mess that became Covid back in June 2021.
> None of them will be recontesting for Labour.
> ...



Did something dodgy happen down there?

They don't normally jump ship unless they might be heading for criminal charges.


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## sptrawler (24 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I get what you are saying and I don't entirely disagree.
> 
> The Eureka flag is a similar symbol which would not engage everyone.
> 
> ...



What if most people are happy with the flag we have? Casting aside heritage, convention and history to appease some who feel disenfranchised, what if the result is the majority end up disenfranchised?
IMO it is difficult very difficult in a multicultural society to give people a feeling of belonging, the more you change your traditions and what is seen as 'normal' the more people disconnect with the 'one Australia' concept and adopt a here we go again attitude.
To me it is a bit like the Republic debate, I look at the republics around the world and I don't see any that have gained the cohesiveness of the monarchy system, even the U.S, Russia etc, I mean what a mess.
The monarchy seems to give a country a grounding, a common link, that outlasts a term of politics, even if is only a honorary position.
Just my opinion.


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## Knobby22 (24 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What if most people are happy with the flag we have? Casting aside heritage, convention and history to appease some who feel disenfranchised, what if the result is the majority end up disenfranchised?
> IMO it is difficult very difficult in a multicultural society to give people a feeling of belonging, the more you change your traditions and what is seen as 'normal' the more people disconnect with the 'one Australia' concept and adopt a here we go again attitude.
> Just my opinion.



I get embarrassed seeing the Union Jack in the corner. My Irish heritage great uncles, now dead, who fought in WW2 weren't fans either.


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## sptrawler (24 June 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I get embarrassed seeing the Union Jack in the corner. My Irish heritage great uncles, now dead, who fought in WW2 weren't fans either.



And that is fair enough, everyone has an opinion, but I see a lot more cohesiveness in the commonwealth, than I do in republics, again just an opinion. Even the Commonwealth games seems to bring a family atmosphere to the sports.
Take the U.K for example, they are represented by people from many nations, who have moved to live in the U.K.
Initially when the influx happened, there was a lot of racial tension and violence, but now there is hardly any when compared to the U.S, a lot of this has to be that the U.K people have a feeling of belonging and I think a lot of that is due to the monarchy.
Again only an opinion.


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## Knobby22 (24 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> And that is fair enough, everyone has an opinion, but I see a lot more cohesiveness in the commonwealth, than I do in republics, again just an opinion. Even the Commonwealth games seems to bring a family atmosphere to the sports.



Yea, i agree. But I would like to be like Canada and be a member with our own flag.
I am pretty sure our defence members would hate to be confused with Poms. 
A silhouette  of a kangaroo would suit me.
Basic, instantly recognised, doesn't exclude or make special inclusions of anyone.


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## sptrawler (24 June 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, i agree. But I would like to be like Canada and be a member with our own flag.
> I am pretty sure our defence members would hate to be confused with Poms.
> A silhouette  of a kangaroo would suit me.
> Basic, instantly recognised, doesn't exclude or make special inclusions of anyone.



Good point and maybe they should have not included the union jack in the corner, the Southern Cross is a great emblem IMO.


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## SirRumpole (24 June 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, i agree. But I would like to be like Canada and be a member with our own flag.
> I am pretty sure our defence members would hate to be confused with Poms.
> A silhouette  of a kangaroo would suit me.
> Basic, instantly recognised, doesn't exclude or make special inclusions of anyone.


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## Knobby22 (24 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> View attachment 143256



yea, nah.


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## sptrawler (24 June 2022)

I like KIS.
No matter where you are in Australia, anyone who looks up on a clear night lit sky, can see it, share it with someone, enjoy it and find their way home with it. If anything else is added, IMO it shouldn't be dominant.


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## mullokintyre (24 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> Did something dodgy happen down there?
> 
> They don't normally jump ship unless they might be heading for criminal charges.



In the same way that Glad resigned and got her pension before they potentially  took it away, I suspect something similar with this mob.
Ya just don't know with these sleazy politicians.
mick


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## SirRumpole (24 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In the same way that Glad resigned and got her pension before they potentially  took it away, I suspect something similar with this mob.
> Ya just don't know with these sleazy politicians.
> mick



On the other hand maybe they were tired of all the media attention and intrusion. Obviously it's part of the job which is maybe why they ditched the job.


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## moXJO (24 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> On the other hand maybe they were tired of all the media attention and intrusion. Obviously it's part of the job which is maybe why they ditched the job.



Na, I'm going with "sleazebags".


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## sptrawler (25 June 2022)

Interesting move by the new Govt, saves money, reduces flack and antagonism. 
Good move IMO, gives the media a lot less ammo, excellent maneuver
Just shows what a popular forward thinking Govt can achieve, it's about time the crossbench was put in their place, they received sod all votes, they should have sod all staff to research and keep the Govt honest.🤣










						Crossbench fury as government cuts staffers from four to one
					

The Senate’s new kingmaker, David Pocock, said the decision was “bad for democracy and terrible for transparency”.




					www.smh.com.au
				



Independents and minor parties are up in arms after Prime Minister Anthony Albanese cut their staffing allocation to a quarter of what it was in the previous parliament, leaving them with only one adviser each to work through reams of legislation and threatening the new government’s relationship with the crossbench.
The previous government gave permission for crossbench MPs and senators to have two advisers and two assistant advisers, plus the electorate office staff each member can employ.


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## SirRumpole (26 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting move by the new Govt, saves money, reduces flack and antagonism.
> Good move IMO, gives the media a lot less ammo, excellent maneuver
> Just shows what a popular forward thinking Govt can achieve, it's about time the crossbench was put in their place, they received sod all votes, they should have sod all staff to research and keep the Govt honest.🤣
> 
> ...



Maybe Albo's first blunder. I thought he wanted to work with the cross bench, it doesn't make sense to get them offside.


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## mullokintyre (26 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe Albo's first blunder. I thought he wanted to work with the cross bench, it doesn't make sense to get them offside.



Agree Horace, he is going to need to keep the cross benchers at least talking to him.
Its instructive that neither the of the "main" opposition parties in the coalition have had their staffing allocations reduced.
It smacks of previous attempts by the coalition to limit the effectiveness of independents.
In politics, you only save money if  the voters think its a great idea and it may generate votes.
Most of the general public will not have known many staffers each members has, and the amount saved will be taken up by permanent additions to the library staff.
Don't know how its going to reduce flack @sptrawler , they have already pissed off the greens the teals, and Bob Katter.
Unless if your suggesting that it will reduce the level of research by cross members into the proposed and current legislation. 
Perhaps the "main " opposition parties will provide them with research when it suits them.
Love to know who first put this gem of an idea up.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (26 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting move by the new Govt, saves money, reduces flack and antagonism.
> Good move IMO, gives the media a lot less ammo, excellent maneuver
> Just shows what a popular forward thinking Govt can achieve, it's about time the crossbench was put in their place, they received sod all votes, they should have sod all staff to research and keep the Govt honest.🤣
> 
> ...



@sptrawler  there is an old saying in trading about never falling in love with a stock.
It could also apply to governments.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe Albo's first blunder. I thought he wanted to work with the cross bench, it doesn't make sense to get them offside.



As Mick said, it reduces the opportunity for the crossbench to pull to bits any of their proposals, give them less research resources.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As Mick said, it reduces the opportunity for the crossbench to pull to bits any of their proposals, give them less research resources.




Labor reckons the Parliamentary library will be expanded to help the Members out.

Who knows unless you are an Insider. I gather the need to reduce spending was a factor. There are probably a lot of hangers on sucking up taxpayers money in everyone's staff.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Labor reckons the Parliamentary library will be expanded to help the Members out.
> 
> Who knows unless you are an Insider. I gather the need to reduce spending was a factor. There are probably a lot of hangers on sucking up taxpayers money in everyone's staff.



I doubt reducing spending was really a factor, it was a convenient scapegoat.
If they were really keen on reducing spending, they would have cut all the pollies positions down to one  or maybe two.
They could have achieved a much bigger result , left everyone else without the dirt digging staff, but used the Public servants in each ministry to do the  "fact finding".
Then you could really save some money.
Yea. nah.  Just typical political Bull$hit.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (26 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> but used the Public servants in each ministry to do the "fact finding".




Hmmm well, I'm sure that the previous government stacked the Public Service to their advantage over 9 years.

It will no doubt happen again but I'm not sure that the Public Service are as unbiased as they should be.


----------



## The Triangle (27 June 2022)

I love it.  Drain the swamp.  No voters in Australia have an ounce of sympathy for these 🐖🐖 at the trough.  These staffers spend most of their time on party affairs anyways.  Let's not kid ourselves into thinking they are actually working for Australians.


----------



## PZ99 (27 June 2022)

I don't think it's supposed to save money. I said previously once the teals had bashed the LNP in the last election they'll target Labor in the next one. 

If "fact finding" is enough to bring down the two major parties then bring it on I say...


----------



## Knobby22 (27 June 2022)

Also he now has a bargaining chip. You want 2 staffers? Pass this legislation


----------



## Knobby22 (27 June 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Also he now has a bargaining chip. You want 2 staffers? Pass this legislation



Also the numbers only went up from one under the coalition in 2007 ( I believe to 2). It was Morrison who took it to 4 and that was a deal to get support.
They have access to the library and the clerks who will serve them if they require information.

Also if people think Albanese is some wet behind the ears Trudeau type figure they have a shock coming. 
He is as hard as nails.


----------



## basilio (28 June 2022)

I'm not impressed  with the Governments decision to cut the staff of Independents.  Jacqui Lambie is a down to earth politician who I have a lot of respect for. She presents a very simple cogent argument.  Essentially she has a ton of legislation to evaluate fairly and she wants staff who understand her community when considering the options she faces when deciding how she will vote. Quite a compelling argument I thought.

The decisions I make in the Senate matter, and I trust my staff to guide me through them​Jacqui Lambie


Prime minister Albanese has decided to sack three of the four people who work for me with no consultation and no notice





‘I hire people who are smart, but also decent. I need to trust them … I’m not an expert on everything. Nobody is. Not even the PM,’ says independent Tasmanian senator Jacqui Lambie. Photograph: Mike Bowers/The Guardian
Tue 28 Jun 2022 02.01 BSTLast modified on Tue 28 Jun 2022 02.04 BST



The leader of the party of the worker has decided to sack three of the four people who work for me. He’s done it with no consultation, no negotiation, no notice it was coming and no opportunity to appeal.

You might think: well, if you’re good at the job, you shouldn’t need a team around you that big.

But that’s not how this works. I’m not an economist. I’m not a lawyer. I’m a regular person who occasionally makes the final decision on whether a government’s idea should become law.

When I’ve got to decide whether a bill should pass, it’s my staff who take the daily calls from industry groups and community organisations and who work directly with the people who’re going to be affected by a change.

They weigh up the arguments for and against what the government wants to do, and help me figure out who to believe.
It’s a huge job.



Independents say crossbencher staff cuts will ‘slow down’ Labor’s legislative agenda
Read more
Take an example. When the Morrison government wanted to ban mobile phones in detention centres, it was my staff who set up the survey to ask people what they think.

They read and summed up the 90,000 responses we got back, and explained the points people were making to me. Hundreds of thousands of words, tens of thousands of emails and submissions – and a handful of staff to get through it all. Ultimately, it was that survey that convinced me to say no to the laws.

The prime minister says I should use the Parliamentary Library instead. But it’s apples and oranges.

The people who work in the Parliamentary Library aren’t working with me from daybreak to dinner. You can’t take them with you into the Senate chamber if you’re going through bills and amendments on the fly.

If I go to them for help in assessing what a bill means for Tasmania, they have no idea, because none of them spend any time there.









						The decisions I make in the Senate matter, and I trust my staff to guide me through them | Jacqui Lambie
					

Prime minister Albanese has decided to sack three of the four people who work for me with no consultation and no notice




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (29 June 2022)

basilio said:


> I'm not impressed  with the Governments decision to cut the staff of Independents.  Jacqui Lambie is a down to earth politician who I have a lot of respect for. She presents a very simple cogent argument.  Essentially she has a ton of legislation to evaluate fairly and she wants staff who understand her community when considering the options she faces when deciding how she will vote. Quite a compelling argument I thought.
> 
> The decisions I make in the Senate matter, and I trust my staff to guide me through them​Jacqui Lambie
> 
> ...



Hard times call for hard decisions.
The last Govt didnt make them, someone has to.


----------



## moXJO (30 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Hard times call for hard decisions.
> The last Govt didnt make them, someone has to.



I can see Bas point, namely less informed members. But at the same time, they survived previously without them.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> I can see Bas point, namely less informed members. But at the same time, they survived previously without them.




'Google it mate' .


----------



## basilio (30 June 2022)

moXJO said:


> I can see Bas point, namely less informed members. But at the same time, they survived previously without them.




That is one perspective.  Sure people can "survive" on an oily rag. The issue and balance of discussion IMV is
*" What quality of decision making should be the basis of Parliamentarians final decisions" ?*

IMV one cannot and should not compare individual Labour or Liberal politicians need,  particularly when they are in Government,  with the current range of independents.  Why ?

Essentially all of the current major party politicians leave the analysis of major legislation to appropriate core Ministers and their Departments. The Ministers have a policy idea.  Departments produce legislation on their request. Parliament then votes on it. So normal members just don't have any  real need to assess new legislation in detail. They are mostly following the party line

How good is the legislation ? Will it address the needs the area demands ? Are there any unintended ( or possibly intended) consequences that would hurt constituencies ?  Big business lobby groups are all over legislation that can affect them.  General public not so much.

*The Independents POV  is that they need the resources to  think through the implications of major pieces of legislation and highlight areas which can be reconsidered/improved if they are going to make a considered vote. *Otherwise they would just be waving the legislation through blindly which undermines the opportunity for a thoughtful debate. It is totally unrealistic to ask or expect public servants to offer critical analysis of bills the current Government is proposing. The best they will do is slowly  repeat  the words of the legislation. So suggesting the independents should go to such resources is a bit ingenuous

The new Labour Government is intent on making many new decisions that will require much legislation. IMV it would be in everyone's interest to enable proper  independent scrutiny of the proposals. It really does make more sense to get  legislation right the first time instead of waiting for issues to fester unnecessarily.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 July 2022)

One of the strongest attributes of a robust civil society is that when illegal acts are comiited, the treatment is the same , no matter the person who has allegedly been wronged.
Its why even the worst criminals should get a fair trial, just as the best citizens should.
I am not a great famn of right wing muck raker Avi Yemeni from rebel news, but his treatment by the VicPOL thugs  has finally come home to roost. 
I did not ever expect to see the following from VicPol but there it is.




Not once, not twice, but three times he has been targeted by Vicpol.
Will be interesting to see what Yemini  and Rebel news do with this  admittance about  illegal detention.
Its about time the Stasi 's that pretend to serve Victorian citizens are brought into line.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (11 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> One of the strongest attributes of a robust civil society is that when illegal acts are comiited, the treatment is the same , no matter the person who has allegedly been wronged.
> Its why even the worst criminals should get a fair trial, just as the best citizens should.
> I am not a great famn of right wing muck raker Avi Yemeni from rebel news, but his treatment by the VicPOL thugs  has finally come home to roost.
> I did not ever expect to see the following from VicPol but there it is.
> ...




So, any action taken against the arresting officers ?

A slap on the wrist probably.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 July 2022)

Yemini started supreme court action last year.
It was due to to trial  in a few weeks.
Vicpol   sought an out of court settlement, that Yemini accepted on the  issuing of a grovelling appology.
I am not sure if there were any punitive damages sought or conceded, but I would expect that he would demand at least they pay his costs.
It remains to be seen exactly what  consequences here might be for the various officers involved or those in charge.
Given that the MSM has given it no publicity yet, perhaps Vicpol are hoping to sweep it under the carpet like the Niccola Gobbo  screwup.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So, any action taken against the arresting officers ?
> 
> A slap on the wrist probably.



Yes for being caught arresting him, I'm sure they could have coerced him out of view.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 July 2022)

And hot on the heels of grovelling from VICPOL, we have the quashing of the conviction of Jason Roberts origibally charged and convicted of  being an accessory in the Silk Miller police murders.
Roberts is no Angel, but as the courts have uncovered, the Police in their eagerness to get a conviction, cut corners,  hid exculpatory evidence, and were less than conistent in their evidence.
It  is now the third  overturning of a conviction in the past three years in Victoria due to allegations of police misconduct in recent years, with accused getaway driver Faruk Orman and convicted drug trafficker Zlate Cvetanovski freed in the wake of the scandal involving gangland barrister-turned-informer Nicola Gobbo, widely known as Lawyer X.
And  whatever peoples opinions on the Character of George Pell, the High Curt decision to overturn the convictions  against him showed the Victorian Justice system has effectively removed the word Justice from its repertoire.'
it will take a long time for the public to have a level of respect and/or confidence for Vicpol and the Victorian courts  system that it once enjoyed.
Mick


----------



## basilio (11 July 2022)

Speaking of Justice a wonder when John "Pork Barrell" Barilaro gets due recognition for his special skills. Creating a special $500k a year trade commissioner  position which he then makes sure he gets even after a highly suitable applicant is awarded the job is  downright criminal.

The testimony given in the current investigation is damning. And of course there are more than a  few people in teh firing line.
‘A present for someone’: Jenny West gives explosive testimony at inquiry into John Barilaro’s NY trade job​Former senior public servant says she had been sent a brief signed by Gladys Berejiklian confirming her in the New York role


Barilaro inquiry: Jenny West told NY trade job would be 'a present for someone’ – video

Michael McGowan

@mmcgowan
Mon 11 Jul 2022 03.54 BSTLast modified on Mon 11 Jul 2022 08.30 BST


The woman first offered the New York trade commissioner job that eventually went to former New South Wales deputy premier John Barilaro has told a parliamentary probe into the appointment that she was told the position would instead be “a present for someone”.

On Monday the former senior public servant and businesswoman Jenny West told an upper house inquiry into Barilaro’s appointment she received a brief signed by former premier Gladys Berejiklian noting her appointment to the $500,000-a-year posting on 12 August last year.

She received the brief in a text message from the chief executive of Investment NSW, Amy Brown, who told her: “This is one to frame.” The message contained emojis of a champagne bottle and the Statue of Liberty.
But despite receiving both the brief and a verbal offer from Brown, the offer was later rescinded, West said.



John Barilaro withdraws from New York trade role due to ‘media attention’
Read more
On Monday, the former Investment NSW deputy secretary told an inquiry examining Barilaro’s appointment that on the same day Brown informed her the New York job was no longer hers because of a ministerial decision to instead make it a “political appointment”, she was also told she would be made redundant.

“In the space of four weeks I went from having been appointed to the role of [trade commissioner] to the Americas to potentially not having a job,” West told the upper house inquiry.









						‘A present for someone’: Jenny West gives explosive testimony at inquiry into John Barilaro’s NY trade job
					

Former senior public servant says she had been sent a brief signed by Gladys Berejiklian confirming her in the New York role




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Five key moments from Jenny West's evidence at NSW's New York trade job inquiry
					

Jenny West's evidence sheds more light on the appointment of former NSW deputy premier John Barilaro to the position of senior trade and investment commissioner to the Americas. Here are five key moments from today's parliamentary inquiry hearing.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (11 July 2022)

basilio said:


> Speaking of Justice a wonder when John "Pork Barrell" Barilaro gets due recognition for his special skills. Creating a special $500k a year trade commissioner  position which he then makes sure he gets even after a highly suitable applicant is awarded the job is  downright criminal.
> 
> The testimony given in the current investigation is damning. And of course there are more than a  few people in teh firing line.
> ‘A present for someone’: Jenny West gives explosive testimony at inquiry into John Barilaro’s NY trade job​Former senior public servant says she had been sent a brief signed by Gladys Berejiklian confirming her in the New York role
> ...



Sounds like a job for ICAC.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2022)

Sounds as though Labors script, hasn't changed much from Duttons.









						Defence Minister warns US-Australian alliance can't 'stand still' amid China's moves in Indo-Pacific
					

Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles says strengthening the Australia-US alliance is the only way to "deter future employment in Europe, the Indo-Pacific, or elsewhere".




					www.abc.net.au
				




Defence Minister Richard Marles has called for closer cooperation between Australia and the United States to avoid what he describes as "a catastrophic failure of deterrence" in the Indo-Pacific.

Key points:​
Defence Minister Richard Marles used an address in Washington DC to argue China was engaging in the biggest military build-up since WWII
He said the US-Australia alliance could not afford to "stand still"
Mr Marles will use his US visit to finalise the AUKUS deal to replace Australia's ageing fleet of Collins class submarines 

Mr Marles used an address in Washington DC to argue China was engaging in the biggest military build-up since the end of Word War II.

"It is massive. It is completely changing the strategic circumstances of the Indo-Pacific and I think, beyond that, the world," he told the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

He warned the alliance between Australia and the US could not afford to "stand still", adding that it would be operating in a much more challenging strategic environment in the years ahead.

"It will need to contribute to a more effective balance of military power, aimed at avoiding a catastrophic failure of deterrence," he said.

"Events in Europe underline the risk we face when one country's determined military build-up convinced its leader that the potential benefit of conflict was worth the risk."

Mr Marles did not specifically reference Taiwan in his speech but said Russia's invasion of Ukraine could not be allowed to succeed.

"Only by ensuring such tactics fail can we deter their future employment, in Europe, the Indo-Pacific or elsewhere," he said.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds like a job for ICAC.



Hope it does better than this one, sounds as though you just tell them what you want.😂
I certainly hope if they are going to form these groups, they give them some teeth, otherwise they just become a false front for scamming IMO. A bit like building certification and the value of them, when you read about tower blocks ready to fall over.

Ex-Labor candidate admits he lied to cover up rort​A former Labor candidate admits he lied to the state’s corruption watchdog to cover up a scandal that saw taxpayer-funded resources used in his preselection campaign.









						Inside the downfall of Qld’s corruption watchdog
					

Queensland’s top anti-corruption boss quit in January in the state’s biggest integrity crisis since Joh Bjelke-Petersen. Now there are concerns the inquiry that toppled him was lopsided.




					www.afr.com


----------



## mullokintyre (18 July 2022)

Hot on the heels of all the other VICPol payouts comes another one.
From The Murdoch Press


> Victoria Police has paid a financial settlement to a Melbourne photojournalist who was pepper sprayed while covering an anti-lockdown protest late last year.
> The Australian can reveal a confidential financial agreement understood to be worth thousands of dollars was finalised last week between photographer Luis Ascui and Victoria Police as a result of the incident that took place last September that left him injured after being sprayed in the face.
> Authorities are also negotiating a settlement with a sports reporter who was injured by police while reporting on Novak Djokovic’s deportation ahead of the Australian open this year.
> 
> ...





From And I forgot to mention This one from the Age


> TALKING POINTS​
> Dani Laidley has received a confidential financial settlement from Victoria Police.
> The payment comes almost two years after images of the former AFL player and coach wearing a wig and make-up were leaked by police officers.
> The amount of the settlement is unknown. Ms Laidley, her lawyer and police are all bound by a strict non-disclosure agreement.
> ...



There are still other cases before the courts that  may well bring the reputation of VICPol even lower than what it is now.
They have a real problem.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (18 July 2022)

At the risk of  being accused of an anti labour Bias,  it pains me to point out that once again, city based governments seem to think their state responsibilites  don't extend beyond the inner city capital boundaries.
From ABC News


> Regional Victoria has largely missed out on the state government's new $162-million healthcare package to buoy under-pressure hospitals.
> 
> Key points:​
> About 400 additional healthcare staff will be shared across 12 major Victorian hospitals
> ...



I sent a copy of this report to our local State member, who constantly promotes the fact that as an independent, she is not beholden to any party.
That may well be true, but it seems to be of absolutely no use to us.
I await her response with bated breath.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2022)

It is going to be interesting to see how the Government balances the environmental collapse and crisis with the requirement to install wind/solar farms and dams, talk about mixed messages. 









						The five graphics that explain the State of the Environment report
					

The gang-gang cockatoo is among the more than 200 plants and animals that have been added to the threatened species list. Here are the other grim findings.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is going to be interesting to see how the Government balances the environmental collapse and crisis with the requirement to install wind/solar farms and dams, talk about mixed messages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




First lesson of politics, you can never please everyone all the time.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 July 2022)

Extremely disappointed to see Josh Frydenberg has decimated whatever levels of ethics and governance he may have had and joined those lying thieving criminals at Goldmans as an Advisor.
FromThe evil murdoch press


> Former treasurer *Josh Frydenberg* has been appointed an adviser to investment bank Goldman Sachs, his first engagement after losing his blue-ribbon seat of Kooyong at the last federal election.
> 
> *Kevin Sneader,* the president of Goldman Sachs Asia Pacific, said Mr Frydenberg would bring “deep public and private sector experience, connectivity, and insight”.
> 
> ...



I guess in the end, its all about the money.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Extremely disappointed to see Josh Frydenberg has decimated whatever levels of ethics and governance he may have had and joined those lying thieving criminals at Goldmans as an Advisor.
> FromThe evil murdoch press
> 
> I guess in the end, its all about the money.
> Mick




I suppose he has to do something.

If you were offered a nice cushy job in his position wouldn't you take it ?


----------



## mullokintyre (21 July 2022)

Nah, my principals might be shallow, but not that shallow.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (21 July 2022)

He could have joined the Future fund and set himself to take over the last decent treasurer we had.
mick


----------



## PZ99 (21 July 2022)

I don't rate Josh Frydenberg and never did. I'm happy where he is if it means he stays away from politics.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I don't rate Josh Frydenberg and never did. I'm happy where he is if it means he stays away from politics.




I don't rate Costello either.

His 'asset recycling' scheme was the main reason our power grid is in the mess it is.


----------



## The Triangle (21 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Extremely disappointed to see Josh Frydenberg has decimated whatever levels of ethics and governance he may have had and joined those lying thieving criminals at Goldmans as an Advisor.
> FromThe evil murdoch press
> 
> I guess in the end, its all about the money.
> Mick



Has nothing to do with Josh.  Has everything to do with sending a message to the current treasurer and future treasurers and politicians.

As long as politicians let the big boys do what they want, the big boys will look after politicians post politics.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 July 2022)

Back in the early days of the Covid pandamec,  there was movement at the station to get quarantine facilities built.
Although quarantine is a FED issue, at least three states *(QLD, Vic and WA) went ahead and built their own facilities.
The  change in Covid has meant that they are largely empty now.
The QLD one built at Wellcamp, is in addition to the Federal one built near the airport at Pinkemba.
After a lot of bluster, the Queensland Govt has finally released  some of the costings for the Wellcamp site.
From The Evil Murdoch press


> The Palaszczuk government agreed to pay $108m – or $300,000 a day – to a medical company to provide health services at its near-empty Wellcamp quarantine facility.
> There was no open tender process undertaken before Aspen Medical was awarded the year-long contract to deliver medical treatment at the quarantine facility, which became obsolete just weeks after opening.
> 
> The 1000-bed centre has housed only about 700 people since it opened in February – an average of 30 guests each week – but those numbers have dwindled since mandatory quarantine was scrapped for unvaccinated international arrivals in April.
> ...



This is of course, over and above what the Qld Government agreed to pay Wellcamp Inc to actually build and run the camp, that is also commercial in confidence.
Commercial in Confidence,  what a misnomer. 
Very little  thats commercial in it, and it provides very little confidence in the  technocrats who hide behind the  moniker.

Mick


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2022)

wayneL said:


> I was pleased to see Jacinta Price got a Senate seat. She will be a great counter to Lydia Thorpe.



Jacinta's maiden speech. It was a cracker 👍


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2022)

wayneL said:


> Jacinta's maiden speech. It was a cracker 👍




There is a Lady with her head screwed on, telling it as it is, not as the self serving media and virtue signaling elites would explain it, good on her.


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2022)

You never know, maybe Australia will get a wake up call soon, that makes people think there are more important things in life than self indulgence.









						Ominous warning as US ship heads towards Taiwan
					

China has made it clear it is not pleased with the potential of Nancy Pelosi visiting Taiwan, issuing a stern warning, while a US ship returns to the South China Sea.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				




The US said China's "aggressive and irresponsible behaviour" means it is only a matter of time before a major incident or accident.

The South China Morning Post reported that China's People Liberation Army has bolstered deployment in the region and expanded an airbase in Fujian, a region in southeast China directly opposite Taiwan.

A US aircraft carrier has reportedly begun to head towards Taiwan.

The USS Ronald Reagan, a carrier which is based in Yokosuka, Japan, pulled into Singapore last week — the first visit since 2019.

The South China Sea Strategic Situation's Probing Initiative said on Twitter the carrier made its way back to the South China Sea on July 26.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I didn’t say it, the Auditor General did and only just recently as per article posted.
> And no one will even get arrested.
> 
> I knew you would be against an anti corruption watchdog for the Federal Parliament.
> ...



We seemed to have been posting in the wrong thread.
So lets see what happens in Queensland, the Wellcamp covid quarantine facility smelt of corruption, as the Feds wanted to build a facility next to the International airport.
So Queensland has a CCC, lets see what transpires, to me these corruption committees just seem like a token rubber stamp for corruption.
Like I said give it to the police to run and give them the laws and the resources to enforce it, then it is independent.
I said when the Wellcamp facility was announced, it will probably end up a taxpayer funded fifo camp for the Wagner group and their South Pacific Island workers.
Time will tell, but don't try and tell me that a Government run Corruption watchdog is anything other than jobs for the boys IMO, because I wont believe it.
Queensland has a Crime and Corruption watchdog, doesn't it? How come there isn't an investigation into this? I live in W.A and I could see it smelt bad, even blind Freddy could see it. 









						Queensland’s Wellcamp Covid quarantine hub will be mothballed within days
					

Deputy premier Steven Miles tells estimates the total government spend for isolation facility exceeded $200m




					www.theguardian.com
				




Queensland taxpayers have forked out more than $200m for the Wellcamp quarantine facility that will be mothballed within days.
The state’s deputy premier, Steven Miles, has revealed the total capital and leasing costs for the complex near Toowoomba, which the Wagner Group now owns, will be $198.5m.
Another $9m has been spent on catering, cleaning and security services.
About 730 guests have stayed at Wellcamp since it opened in February.
“It supported individuals with isolation accommodation in a range of circumstances, particularly those most vulnerable in the community,” Miles said.
“This includes guests who have tested positive to Covid-19 but do not have a suitable place to safely isolate such as homeless persons, refugees and victims of domestic violence.”


*From August a year ago*:








						'It's a no-brainer': Queensland goes it alone to build regional quarantine hub
					

Queensland is building a regional COVID-19 quarantine facility near the Wellcamp Airport, west of Brisbane, despite the federal government repeatedly rejecting the proposal.




					www.abc.net.au
				




The Queensland government is pushing ahead with its own regional dedicated COVID-19 quarantine facility.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced on Thursday that Cabinet has approved the project on vacant land owned by Wagner Corporation, just outside Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.

The announcement came as the state recorded two new cases of COVID-19, both in hotel quarantine.
Construction started at the site near Wellcamp Airport on Thursday, with 500 beds to be available by the end of the year and a total capacity of 1,000 by March next year.

Construction firm Wagners first submitted the plan to use its Wellcamp Airport as the landing point for some of the Australians stranded overseas in January.

The financial arrangement between the state government and the Wagner family will be commercial-in-confidence, but the state government has signed a one-year lease, with the option of extending to two or three years.

In June, *Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the site did not meet the criteria for a Commonwealth-funded quarantine compound because it was not within easy access of a passenger airport terminal or tertiary hospital.
He knocked back the plan and instead proposed a facility at the Damascus Barracks, about 5 minutes' drive from Brisbane Airport.*


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2022)

27 August 2021, just under 12 months ago.



sptrawler said:


> Wellcamp, it sounds too good to be true, built on Wagner land, by the Wagner family building group, to service the Wagner family airport. Paid for by the taxpayer, with no open tender. Smells of a taxpayer funded holiday resort, when the virus quarantining isn't required.
> Carparks anyone.
> I would like to see what would have been said, if the Libs had suggested it.🤣



My post from the 27 August 2021, just to clarify for @Knobby22 . *Queensland has had a corruption watchdog for 30 years FFS*, was anything said? No, will anything be said? very probably No.
Should it be investigated, well if it was independent of government I would definitely think so.
It didn't make sense then and it is closing down now and will become a Wagner Family facility according to the Guardian article, which is great if you're related. 😂
Nothing to see here @Knobby22 duh, we need a CCC so it stops shonky deals, yeh give me a break.  
Be like me Knobby, cynical of both sides, they are as bad as each other.  

Only my personal observations.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2022)

@Knobby22 to further illustrate the nonsense surrounding your fascination with a Government appointed corruption watchdog.
Criticising me, for being critical, just IMO shows your lack of actually wanting an effective corruption watchdog.
But it does show your blind following of the media circus, no matter what it promotes, as long as it aligns with your party politics.
Try thinking outside the square. 
The corruption watchdog should be separate and independent of politics IMO.
If you see that as being against a corruption watchdog, well that is obviously a problem you are carrying, not me.

I think Mark McGowan has done and is doing a great job in W.A, but here is an article concerning our corruption watchdog and political interference.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-corruption-commissioner-20200415-p54jug.html

WA Labor will introduce an extraordinary law which will reappoint CCC commissioner John McKechnie by naming him personally in the legislation governing the powerful corruption watchdog.

But prominent upper house MP Nick Goiran has accused the government of incompetence and of ignoring the recommendations of the WA Inc Royal Commission.
The three-line amendment, which has been seen by _WAtoday_, changes section 9 of the Corruption, Crime and Misconduct Act to override the legal processes for the appointment of a Crime and Corruption Commissioner.

This means the requirement for the Premier to appoint a commissioner who has the bipartisan support of the CCC's parliamentary oversight committee, and who is recommended by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and the Chief Judge of the District Court, would be abandoned.

Instead, the Act will be changed to name "John Roderick McKechnie ... commissioner for a period of five years commencing on 28 April 2020".
Labor planned to present the changes to Parliament on Wednesday.
The laws governing the appointment of a CCC commissioner were put in place in 2003 as a check on the government's power over the independence of the corruption watchdog and to prevent the post being filled by political appointees.

The requirement for the appointment of corruption commissioners to have bipartisan support originated in the recommendations of the WA Inc Royal Commission.









						WA Inc - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





So @Knobby22 as I said it should be completely separate from Government and should have the power to investigate and prosecute if there has been an abuse of a public officers position, the way it works presently is a f%^ng joke.

As you said, NSW and to a lesser extent Victoria.
 "to a lesser extent Victoria"? what a limp excuse for an overseeing corruption body and its limp enforcement, if indeed there is any enforcement.
But hey you take the moral high ground, it fits well in todays talk a lot and do FA society.


----------



## Knobby22 (31 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @Knobby22 to further illustrate the nonsense surrounding your fascination with a Government appointed corruption watchdog.
> Criticising me, for being critical, just IMO shows your lack of actually wanting an effective corruption watchdog.
> But it does show your blind following of the media circus, no matter what it promotes, as long as it aligns with your party politics.
> Try thinking outside the square.
> ...



Well then, you will be for an independent strong one like in NSW then. Good. 
The Attorney General has shown it is definitely needed.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Well then, you will be for an independent strong one like in NSW then. Good.
> The Attorney General has shown it is definitely needed.



Of course it's needed, it just has to be absolutely removed from political interference and be given the ability to prosecute, otherwise it is another gravy train for political stoogies IMO.
The last thing we need is more political committees made up of political appointees, to oversee political behaviour, in the name of open and honest politics.
I'm not affiliated to any party and never have been and I don't believe BS from either party, like I said put the police in charge of political corruption and give them the laws and people to enforce honesty and openness, without political affiliations.
What is being done presently is a whitewash IMO. It attracts people into politics for personal gain IMO. How many would go into politics, if they couldn't feather their nest?
Just don't try and convince me, that the current model of corruption watchdogs, is the way it should be.
Maybe I set a bar higher than you and I have lost many friends through life, by setting the loyalty and honesty bar high, I give it and expect it in return. 
As has been proven over and over, many laws are enacted that affect the constituents, but there are clauses inserted to ensure politicians aren't affected, how could that happen if they are there to represent the best interests of their constituents?
like I said neither side has my confidence, because both sides are self serving, it is just who the organ grinder is that changes. 😂


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2022)

WOW a newly appointed female minister sacked for bullying, it must have been pretty out there, as the Premier had only been back in Australia for one day. So being a female minister it must have been an extreme case of bullying one would think.









						'I had to take action': NSW minister Eleni Petinos sacked by Premier after anonymous complaint by staffer
					

Eleni Petinos denied any wrongdoing after a complaint in her office but Premier Dominic Perrottet now says her position has become untenable.




					www.abc.net.au
				



_The Premier has now lost one of the seven Coalition women in his 26-person cabinet.

Her sacking comes as the Trade Minister, Stuart Ayres, has been under increasing pressure over the former Deputy Premier, John Barilaro's appointment to a lucrative trade role in New York.
Documents released publicly to the parliament, have called into question his involvement in the recruitment process and whether he misled parliament.
Mr Ayres, who is also the deputy Liberal leader, maintains the process was conducted at arm's length from Government and the Premier is standing by his Minister_.

I guess the strong ICAC commission in NSW will sort it out.


----------



## JohnDe (1 August 2022)

Nothing stands still forever, looks like we are closer to becoming a republic. As usual, it will be interesting to see what system we will adopt, and there looks to be the added inclusion of a legislated indigenous voice in Parliament. Not sure but I think that the NZ system did this many years ago.



> Greens Senator Lydia Thorpe labels Queen ‘coloniser’ in parliamentary oath​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> WOW a newly appointed female minister sacked for bullying, it must have been pretty out there, as the Premier had only been back in Australia for one day. So being a female minister it must have been an extreme case of bullying one would think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wonder if she bullied a man or a woman ?

If it was a man, the sisterhood would be right behind her saying he probably deserved it.

If it was a woman I would think there would be a conflict of interest among the fems as to who to support.


----------



## wayneL (1 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> As usual, it will be interesting to see what system we will adopt, and there looks to be the added inclusion of a legislated indigenous voice in Parliament. Not sure but I think that the NZ system did this many years ago.




I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we do have an indigenous voice in parliament via the several indigenous MPs.

What good could this additional voice possibly add apart from enriching the current grifters, such as Senator Price (an indigenous voice) has outlined?

Re the republic: as you've intimated, the shape of such republic is critical. I'm pretty ambivalent either way and am just interested in a representative system works. However I just cannot believe that the egregious clowns in charge of the republican movement are interested in actually delivering that.


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2022)

Yes calling the Queen a coloniser isn't bad, it could be worse, Australia could have been colonised by the French, Dutch or Spanish.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we do have an indigenous voice in parliament via the several indigenous MPs.



Plus they have the vote like everyone else.

They should be consultant on legislation that affects them ? Most pieces of legislation affects indigenous people like they affect everyone else. I'm not sure how the pieces of legislation that may affect them will be separated for any other pieces of legislation.


----------



## wayneL (1 August 2022)

Oh Kooyong, what have you done?


----------



## macca (1 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Plus they have the vote like everyone else.
> 
> They should be consultant on legislation that affects them ? Most pieces of legislation affects indigenous people like they affect everyone else. I'm not sure how the pieces of legislation that may affect them will be separated for any other pieces of legislation.




Officially, there are six describing themselves as being of aboriginal descent, a nice mix of parties in amongst them.

It would be extremely easy to form an advisory group of Elected people to assess the impact of any proposed laws on aboriginal people.

ps I found it interesting that according to Tribal Elders Anyone born in Australia is born into the Dreaming and can claim to be aboriginal. 

I know that when I stand alone in the outback, maybe on a bush track or lookout, I do get the creeps a bit. 

I stood alone on the lookout near Echidna Chasm ( in the Bungles Bungles) for about 15 mins and it was an eerie feeling, Very moving...........

I went back there about three years later, stood in the same spot and after 10mins I started getting goosebumps in 38c heat, something going on


----------



## Knobby22 (1 August 2022)

It's complex. It's about recognition within the Constitution. It's origins are written by Constitutional Conservatives and recognises Parliament and it doesn't create a 3rd house.

NZ under Jim Bolger, a Conservative resolved it many years ago. It will be resolved here sooner or later. It won't go away.

Let's see the actual words. I hope everyone keeps an open mind and doesn't rush into premature hard line positions.


----------



## wayneL (1 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> It's complex. It's about recognition within the Constitution. It's origins are written by Constitutional Conservatives and recognises Parliament and it doesn't create a 3rd house.
> 
> NZ under Jim Bolger, a Conservative resolved it many years ago. It will be resolved here sooner or later. It won't go away.
> 
> Let's see the actual words. I hope everyone keeps an open mind and doesn't rush into premature hard line positions.



Politicians are unable to resolve complex, it will be a pig's ear, as it is (probably much worse) than NZ.

Ultimately what is required is the goodwill of all groups, then unwieldy and unworkable bureaucratic attempts become unnecessary.

As a culture, we are approaching that, in spite of lunatics like Lydia. Folks like Jacinta Price, Anthony Dillon and Warren Mundine show the best way.

Everything else will be useless tokenism at best, and most likely divisive.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2022)

Labor decided to start its clown show. It went from being impressed, to now watching all those lobby groups come out and grab their piece.


----------



## wayneL (2 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Labor decided to start its clown show. It went from being impressed, to now watching all those lobby groups come out and grab their piece.



That was never *not going to happen.


----------



## JohnDe (2 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we do have an indigenous voice in parliament via the several indigenous MPs.
> 
> What good could this additional voice possibly add apart from enriching the current grifters, such as Senator Price (an indigenous voice) has outlined?
> 
> Re the republic: as you've intimated, the shape of such republic is critical. I'm pretty ambivalent either way and am just interested in a representative system works. However I just cannot believe that the egregious clowns in charge of the republican movement are interested in actually delivering that.




I'm with you on this. When our elected leaders start messing with our democratic system by adding clauses that allow un-elected people into decision making positions in parliament, we start to head down a dangerous path.



> *Enshrined voice betrays ideals of liberalism*
> 
> Let’s get straight to the point. A constitutionally enshrined Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice to parliament is a terrible idea, wrong in principle and harmful in practice.
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I'm with you on this. When our elected leaders start messing with our democratic system by adding clauses that allow un-elected people into decision making positions in parliament, we start to head down a dangerous path.




Governments should consult with all people who are going to be affected by legislation. Businesses, consumers , pensioners are among groups that legislation affects, I don't see why one group should have mention in the Constitution when others don't.

I have no problem with Constitutional recognition of the original inhabitants, it's just a matter of fact that they were here before European settlement, but special treatment in other ways is not warranted, and I can see it will just create endless argument when indigenous people don't get what they want.


----------



## macca (2 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Governments should consult with all people who are going to be affected by legislation. Businesses, consumers , pensioners are among groups that legislation affects, I don't see why one group should have mention in the Constitution when others don't.
> 
> I have no problem with Constitutional recognition of the original inhabitants, it's just a matter of fact that they were here before European settlement, but special treatment in other ways is not warranted, and I can see it will just create endless argument when indigenous people don't get what they want.



That is in fact the crux of the problem, different strokes for different folks !

Ask one lot of elders what they want and it will be totally different to the next group.

Compare Jacinta and Warren Mundine' attitude with the "victims" attitude and it becomes very obvious that we Have to treat them the same as everyone else.

No matter what we do there will Always be someone who wants more, me me me...................


----------



## JohnDe (2 August 2022)

So true -

“Enoch Powell once remarked,* ‘For a politician to complain about the press is like a captain complaining about the sea’.* These proceedings demonstrate a politician litigating over the barbs of a political adversary might be considered a similarly futile exercise,” he said.




> *Mark McGowan, Clive Palmer blasted in defamation case ruling*
> 
> The high-profile defamation battle between Queensland billionaire Clive Palmer and West Australian premier Mark McGowan has ended in both men being awarded only token amounts of damages.
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> So true -
> 
> “Enoch Powell once remarked,* ‘For a politician to complain about the press is like a captain complaining about the sea’.* These proceedings demonstrate a politician litigating over the barbs of a political adversary might be considered a similarly futile exercise,” he said.


----------



## IFocus (2 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we do have an indigenous voice in parliament via the several indigenous MPs.





Think you will find they all will have their own agendas often for their own mobs plus given the power structures that operate in the Parliament unlikely they will have much impact.

As for the Voice I think its a good idea wont please all and wont carry much power but don't discount the symbolism and pride that it will carry hopefully for all Indigenous Australians.

You have to start some where its been a long time coming.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 August 2022)

When state premiers start to "lose" cabinet members, you know they are on the way out.
Andrews in Victoria, now Perotet in NSW.
Andrew Ayres has resigned after the  com-lete debacle over appointing John Barrilaro to the position of US trade rep.
This follows the departure of Elini Petinos who was sacked over bullying claims.
When the third one gets sacked, it will confirm the demise of the NSW government.
A change federally often comes with a state changes.
There have been few occasions when the Federal Government and the State governments of all three of the Eastern States have been of the same political bias.
So, I am going to predict there will be change of governments in Victoria in November,  NSW in  June 2023, and Queensland in  October 2024.
All of the three   governments are tired, the smarter ones have left or been kicked out,  and all have the stench of corruption hanging around them.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> now Perotet in NSW.
> Andrew Ayres has resigned after the com-lete debacle over appointing John Barrilaro to the position of US trade rep.
> This follows the departure of Elini Petinos who was sacked over bullying claims.




Not forgetting the big one, Gladys.

I'm in NSW and I don't think Labor has a big enough public face yet, they get very little media coverage and need to upgrade their profile.

QLD I'm not sure about either I think Anna will hang on.

VIC, who knows ? there has been enough manure flying around about Labor, but little seems to have stuck to Andrews, but I think Vic is the biggest chance for a change.


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not forgetting the big one, Gladys.
> 
> I'm in NSW and I don't think Labor has a big enough public face yet, they get very little media coverage and need to upgrade their profile.
> 
> ...



The stench of NSW Labor corruption hasn't been erased yet imo. That coupled with labors high unemployment and generally sht times stains the memory still.

The current bunch of sht libs still haven't quite overtaken labors bunch of sht ministers in the race to the bottom. 

In saying that, I'm not impressed with Perotet. Preferred Gladys or O'farrell.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2022)

Murdoch press and political interference, something should be done about it, it never happens with the other side of politics.
Just saying, 🤣









						McGowan ‘doesn’t recall’ if he tried to influence Stokes’ anti-Palmer law coverage
					

The premier has finally answered questions about his relationship with media mogul Kerry Stokes after the Clive Palmer defamation case exposed a chummy text exchange.




					www.watoday.com.au
				




West Australian Premier Mark McGowan has defended his relationship with billionaire Kerry Stokes while saying he could “not recall” whether he phoned him to influence the editorial direction of his media outlets to favour the government in August 2020.
As the McGowan-Palmer defamation verdict was handed down on Tuesday, the premier finally answered questions about his relationship with the media mogul since the case revealed a chummy text exchange between the pair.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> *Murdoch press and political interference*, something should be done about it, it *never happens with the other side of politics*.
> Just saying, 🤣




Examples please.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

Finally something is being done - 



> *Why ‘unfair contracts’ are finally set to be dumped by Labor*
> 
> Many of Australia’s largest enterprises are set to be brought into the 21st century as the new ALP government vows to finally end the barbaric “unfair contracts” that have dominated dealings between large and small enterprises for two centuries. I have battled to end these contracts for more than 10 years.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Examples please.



Exactly my thoughts, there is no doubt a political bent to all media, it is just that the only ones that ever get mentioned are Murdoch.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

The reason why the only ones that ever get mentioned are Murdoch is because Murdoch are the only ones that cut down Prime Ministers they don't like.

If anyone can point out another time when "other" media cut down a PM like Murdoch did with Turnbull then I'm happy to see it.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> The reason why the only ones that ever get mentioned are Murdoch is because *Murdoch are the only ones that cut down Prime Ministers they don't like.
> .....cut down a PM like Murdoch did with Turnbull *




Examples please.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Examples please.



What do you want examples of? The Murdoch press being right wing biased, or that some posters on the forum believe they are right wing biased.
The former I can't, the latter is easy just use the search function, Murdoch and then one of the left leaning posters member name.
Actually easier still, put the question out there in general chat, "Is the Murdoch press biased?" you will get plenty of feedback.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What do you want examples of? The Murdoch press being right wing biased, or the that some posters on the forum believe they are right wing biased.
> The former I can't the latter is easy just use the search function, Murdoch and then one of the left leaning posters member name.




For every person that points out a 'right wing' issue there is another person showing us a 'left wing' issue. Both are lazy people, because both sides did not take into account that they both see the other side as biased.

Give me someone that can look at both sides without prejudice and then show me the facts of what they found.

It's easy to yell at the clouds, doesn't make sense but it is easy.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As do the Guardian, the SMH, the AGE and the ABC, how do you differentiate between right and wrong?
> The Murdoch press leans right, the ex Fairfax press, the Guardian and the ABC lean left, why condemn one side?
> Like I've said over and over, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, if you shut down the Murdoch press, well you would probably be like China.



An old post of mine. 
I agree 100% with you @JohnDe


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Examples please.



Malcolm Turnbull.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Malcolm Turnbull.




What about him?

Where are your examples that a news group has made it their mission to get a Prime Minster removed?



> PZ99 said:
> The reason why the only ones that ever get mentioned are Murdoch is because *Murdoch are the only ones that cut down Prime Ministers they don't like.
> .....cut down a PM like Murdoch did with Turnbull*


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> What about him?
> 
> Where are your examples that a news group has made it their mission to get a Prime Minster removed?



I have already given you the one example - Malcolm Turnbull. Cut down by the Murdoch media.

Can't give you "examples" as it's not possible to cut down the same Prime Minister more than once


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> An old post of mine.
> I agree 100% with you @JohnDe





> sptrawler said:
> As do the Guardian, the SMH, the AGE and the ABC, how do you differentiate between right and wrong?
> The Murdoch press leans right, the ex Fairfax press, the Guardian and the ABC lean left, why condemn one side?
> Like I've said over and over, *the truth lies somewhere in the middle*, if you shut down the Murdoch press, well you would probably be like China.




True. 

I don't get all these people calling out bias from the left, the right, extreme left, extreme right, and so on. I now appreciate my grandparents lessons, they taught me to look at all sides of a story, gather your own facts and be polite. My school taught me how to gather the facts and about balance.

As you say, take away one side and we end up with an unbalanced system. As everyone knows that anything that is unbalanced will vibrate until it self destructs.

Don't complain about the perceived bias of one source of information, gather multiple sources and use all the information. It's tat simple, teach it at schools.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I have already given you the one example - Malcolm Turnbull. Cut down by the Murdoch media.
> 
> Can't give you "examples" as it's not possible to cut down the same Prime Minister more than once




No, you gave no examples. 

“Unbiased news doesn’t exist. Everyone has a bias: everyday people and journalists. And that’s OK,” Mastrine said. But it’s not OK for news organizations to hide those biases, she said.

Voters need more credit than most people care to give them, most people that vote are pretty smart and clued up.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No, you gave no examples.
> 
> “Unbiased news doesn’t exist. Everyone has a bias: everyday people and journalists. And that’s OK,” Mastrine said. But it’s not OK for news organizations to hide those biases, she said.
> 
> *Voters need more credit than most people care to give them, most people that vote are pretty smart and clued up.*



Right... So a petition for a Royal Commission investigating News Corp raising more than half a million signatures says much about smart voters right ? (Despite the blatant lie on Sky News it was a vote harvesting exercise for which they were forced to apologise...)

The Murdoch media were actively campaigning against Turnbull and they printed that Peter Dutton would challenge the leadership of the Liberal Party before that challenge even took place. Why? Because they orchestrated it along with the conservative right of the party.

It's not an excuse to be obtuse or in denial by saying other forms of media lean the other way and therefore everything must be hunky dory because it's all balanced out. That is a massive cop out.

The truth doesn't lie somewhere in the middle - it lies on accurate reporting of events in an unbiased way. 
Everything the Murdoch media are against.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)




----------



## wayneL (3 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Think you will find they all will have their own agendas often for their own mobs plus given the power structures that operate in the Parliament unlikely they will have much impact.
> 
> As for the Voice I think its a good idea wont please all and wont carry much power but don't discount the symbolism and pride that it will carry hopefully for all Indigenous Australians.
> 
> You have to start some where its been a long time coming.





JohnDe said:


> Finally something is being done -



I've always thought the small business community was the low hanging fruit for any party and could never figure out why they (we) are largely forsaken.

Labor could be almost unbeatable if they embraced small business and dropped the far left, woke nonsense.

As would LNP to be fair


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> I've always thought the small business community was the low hanging fruit for any party and could never figure out why they (we) are largely forsaken.
> 
> Labor could be almost unbeatable if they embraced small business and dropped the far left, woke nonsense.
> 
> As would LNP to be fair



Unions are not small business friendly. Small businesses don't unionise. They want big business generally. And yes I've had particular govt departments say as much.


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No, you gave no examples.
> 
> “Unbiased news doesn’t exist. Everyone has a bias: everyday people and journalists. And that’s OK,” Mastrine said. But it’s not OK for news organizations to hide those biases, she said.
> 
> Voters need more credit than most people care to give them, most people that vote are pretty smart and clued up.



Rudd,  Gillard there was a directed news campaign against them that became quite toxic. 
I  would say that voters are pretty dumb and will run with whatever sht you feed them.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Rudd,  Gillard there was a directed news campaign against them that became quite toxic.
> I  would say that voters are pretty dumb and will run with whatever sht you feed them.




Are you a voter?

Let’s make a list of PM’s that have had articles written about media causing there demise:
John McKewen
John Gorton
William McMahon
Gough Whitlam
Malcolm Fraser
John Howard
Kevin Rudd
Julia Gilard
Tony Abbot
Malcolm Turnbull

Quite a list there, might have to ban all media to protect the voters.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Are you a voter?
> 
> Let’s make a list of PM’s that have had articles written about media causing there demise:
> John McKewen
> ...



Examples please.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


>





The 26 minute mark.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The 26 minute mark.



The 1:40 minute mark.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Examples please.




That’s my point, it’s all so easy for ones own bias to cloud their view into thinking that there is a group brainwashing the voters, and everyone else other than themself are too gullible to make their own decisions.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> The 1:40 minute mark.






PZ99 said:


> The 1:40 minute mark.



Yes leaked information from someone from the political system, which any reporter and news organisations would turn into hot news. Like they’ve done for hundreds of years. What about it?


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes leaked information from someone from the political system, which any reporter and news organisations would turn into hot news. Like they’ve done for hundreds of years. What about it?



Err No... "A paper known for it's antagonism towards Turnbull".

You like to avoid the point don't you ?



JohnDe said:


> That’s my point, it’s all so easy for ones own bias to cloud their view into thinking that there is a group brainwashing the voters, and everyone else other than themself are too gullible to make their own decisions.



So in other words your examples don't exist. Whereas the Murdoch example does exist because it was so blatant to anyone who isn't biased towards the Murdoch media 

If you want to accuse others of clouded thinking that's your prerogative. But it's not a license to ignore/rewrite history.


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Err No... "A paper known for it's antagonism towards Turnbull".




A paper did the “strategic leak” ?


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> A paper did the “strategic leak” ?



"A paper *known* for it's antagonism towards Turnbull"


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> "A paper *known* for it's antagonism towards Turnbull"




And what is new about a paper that has antagonised politicians and leaders?

People in political positions, elected or not, whittled away and fed media until they achieved their goal. Same story that’s happened for thousands of years in politics.

“Et tu, Brute”

Enoch Powell, ‘For a politician to complain about the press is like a captain complaining about the sea’.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> And what is new about a paper that has antagonised politicians and leaders?
> 
> People in political positions, elected or not, whittled away and fed media until they achieved their goal. Same story that’s happened for thousands of years in politics.
> 
> ...



What's new about it is that example was the first time the Murdoch media was directly involved in cutting down a Prime Minister halfway through a term... in other words the voters didn't have their say about a change in their Prime Minister. Murdoch, who isn't even an Australian citizen anymore decided to troll our political system to remove a progressive leader and install their own conservative sock puppet who is now leading that same party in opposition.

As I said from the start... if you can provide a similar example of this happening in the past I would like to see it.

I'm not interested in who or how the media campaigned for in the leadup to elections held over thousands of years because at least the voters have their say as to who they vote for.
(or are brainwashed using your words which is strange considering you also said voters were pretty smart and clued up)

That did not happen in the Turnbull case - which makes it unique. It was a classic case of the born-to-rule mentality that is synonymous with the right leaning corporatocracy of which Murdoch is a proud member along with all the other tax avoiders that seek to widen the gap between the rich (them) and the poor (everyone else).

Like I said you seem to have developed a need to avoid the point (reminds me of someone else who posts in this thread... easy to find.... just use the search function, Murdoch and then one of the right leaning poster's member name) so I suspect you might just be having a bit a lend of us mate.

Fine with me


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Are you a voter?
> 
> Let’s make a list of PM’s that have had articles written about media causing there demise:
> John McKewen
> ...



Pretty sure PM's were not lining up to kiss the other media Barron's ar5es.
It's more than just "bad headlines".


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> What's new about it is that example was the first time the Murdoch media was directly involved in cutting down a Prime Minister halfway through a term... in other words the voters didn't have their say about a change in their Prime Minister. Murdoch, who isn't even an Australian citizen anymore decided to troll our political system to remove a progressive leader and install their own conservative sock puppet who is now leading that same party in opposition.
> 
> As I said from the start... if you can provide a similar example of this happening in the past I would like to see it.
> 
> ...




Most of what you have just written is your point of view, you have no proof other than an ABC report which points out that Turnbull had more enemies than friends and they leaked damaging “strategic “ information about him to the media.

I actually liked Turnbull, and I get my news information from multiple sources. Two thirds from different ABC formats, the rest from different news limited formats the Economist and internet formats.

Turnbull’s downfall was caused by more than one factor, blaming a media organisation is the simplest of reasons.

Now you mention that the voters did not get to have their say on the Turnbull decision. The Australian politics is not like a Presidential system, we do not vote for a PM, we vote for a local MP and a Party. The political parties vote for their leader, and that leader usually becomes the PM.

And as the example of PM Kevin Rudd and PM Julia Gillard, the party can and does remove their leader/PM.

As for me sounding like someone else I have no idea who or what that has to do with all of this, other than a smoke screen.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Most of what you have just written is your point of view, you have no proof other than an ABC report which points out that Turnbull had more enemies than friends and they leaked damaging “strategic “ information about him to the media.



What more proof do you need ? It's all over the internet if you bother to look.



JohnDe said:


> I actually liked Turnbull, and I get my news information from multiple sources. Two thirds from different ABC formats, the rest from different news limited formats the Economist and internet formats.
> 
> Turnbull’s downfall was caused by more than one factor, blaming a media organisation is the simplest of reasons.



It's also the most obvious reason. If you get information from multiple source I suggest you use those sources to find your own proof if you don't believe me. The ABC is a good start. The guardian is another. Youtube is the best. 



JohnDe said:


> Now you mention that the voters did not get to have their say on the Turnbull decision. The Australian politics is not like a Presidential system, we do not vote for a PM, we vote for a local MP and a Party. The political parties vote for their leader, and that leader usually becomes the PM.



That has nothing to do with the point. When people vote, they do so based on who leads the party, what their polices are and who their local member is. Why else would the party leaders ask for your vote?
The voters did not get to have their say on the Turnbull decision because Turnbull was cut down by the Murdoch media halfway through a term.




JohnDe said:


> And as the example of PM Kevin Rudd and PM Julia Gillard, the party can and does remove their leader/PM.



What does this have to do with anything ?



JohnDe said:


> As for me sounding like someone else I have no idea who or what that has to do with all of this, other than a smoke screen.



It's funny you should say that... because that other poster addressed you using the very same words that I did but you're OK with that yeah ? LOL


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> What more proof do you need ? It's all over the internet if you bother to look.
> 
> 
> It's also the most obvious reason. If you get information from multiple source I suggest you use those sources to find your own proof if you don't believe me. The ABC is a good start. The guardian is another. Youtube is the best.
> ...




I’m happy with the proof from the ABC doco that you supplied: ‘strategic leaks from political insiders to media organisations weakened Malcolm Turnbull’s position of power’.

A fair few Australians cast their votes for their local member, the one with the most votes wins the seat and the party with the most seats wins the election. The leader of that party becomes PM but if enough members of the party disagree with the way the leader is taking the party and country they can have an internal vote to remove the leader and then another vote to elect another leader/MP.


----------



## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I’m happy with the proof from the ABC doco that you supplied: ‘strategic leaks from political insiders to media organisations weakened Malcolm Turnbull’s position of power’.
> 
> A fair few Australians cast their votes for their local member, the one with the most votes wins the seat and the party with the most seats wins the election. The leader of that party becomes PM but if enough members of the party disagree with the way the leader is taking the party and country they can have an internal vote to remove the leader and then another vote to elect another leader/MP.



Of course they can. We all know that. The Turnbull situation is unique. I live in Sydney where at that time the right wing talkback radio station was owned by Murdoch and they bashed Turnbull all day every day - calling for him to be replaced. Murdoch flies into the country and days later that radio station says Dutton is going to roll Turnbull which Dutton denies and then does it anyway.

Anyway... as an aside... a bit of light reading > https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2021/04/26/crime-of-the-century-alan-kohler/


----------



## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Of course they can. We all know that. The Turnbull situation is unique. I live in Sydney where at that time the right wing talkback radio station was owned by Murdoch and they bashed Turnbull all day every day - calling for him to be replaced. Murdoch flies into the country and days later that radio station says Dutton is going to roll Turnbull which Dutton denies and then does it anyway.
> 
> Anyway... as an aside... a bit of light reading > https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2021/04/26/crime-of-the-century-alan-kohler/




So you are saying that because one media organisation ‘bashed Turnbull every day’ and Turnbull was unable to rally his team and give them confidence. Which lead to some in the Liberal party to call for a no-confidence vote in their leader.


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## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> So you are saying that because one media organisation ‘bashed Turnbull every day’ and Turnbull was unable to rally his team aigive them confidence. Which lead to some in the Liberal party to call for a no-confidence vote in their leader.



Pretty much as demonstrated in the video and countless others... yes.


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## JohnDe (3 August 2022)

__





						How large is Rupert Murdoch's reach through News Corp in Australian media, old and new? - ABC News
					






					amp.abc.net.au


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## PZ99 (3 August 2022)

I like this bit: "News Corp Australasia executive chairman Michael Miller told the inquiry this overstated the company's power, noting that Labor won Queensland's last state election, despite *News Corp's Courier Mail pushing for a change of government*".

This is the best bit however... ASF covering the whole event...





__





						Peter Dutton - The Great Pretender?
					

And Dutton is still there.  Another try in six months ? after the election?They need to get rid of TA. He is a cancer.




					www.aussiestockforums.com
				




And don't forget this... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09...upert-murdoch-kerry-stokes-influence/10262552


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I like this bit: "News Corp Australasia executive chairman Michael Miller told the inquiry this overstated the company's power, noting that Labor won Queensland's last state election, despite *News Corp's Courier Mail pushing for a change of government*".




I like this part '_When it comes to radio, Mr Murdoch is a minority company shareholder in a market where ownership is somewhat more diverse than in print._' 

It puts into perspective your claim "Murdoch are the only ones that cut down Prime Ministers", even though your own evidence reports that 'his enemies were rolling over the top of him' and 'strategic leaks to the media' is the reason he was weakened as a PM and leader. 

And you then state " I live in Sydney where at that time the right wing talkback radio station was owned by Murdoch and they bashed Turnbull all day every day". One radio station in one city. 









> But it's important to note that the subject of Mr Rudd's petition was news media, and the data does not specifically show whether people were listening to news.




Evidence so far that one media source caused the Liberal Party to remove Malcolm Turnbull as leader is very thin, especially when your supplied ABC doco shows that members of the Coalition brought the end to the Turnbull leadership by any means possible. Malcolm Turnbull was not able to shore up his supporter base, nor persuade his enemies that his plans were the best solution to the countries problems, and when the vote came he did not have the numbers.

Conspiracy theories need more evidence than a radio station and an angry ex PM. Rudd and Gillard had their own, but even they moved on.

Australia is a diverse multi cultural country, we have many forms of news sources which more people are using than ever before, even when Turnbull was in power. 

Time to stop crying about the loss, the country is bigger than one person.


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I like this part '_When it comes to radio, Mr Murdoch is a minority company shareholder in a market where ownership is somewhat more diverse than in print._'
> 
> It puts into perspective your claim "Murdoch are the only ones that cut down Prime Ministers", even though your own evidence reports that 'his enemies were rolling over the top of him' and 'strategic leaks to the media' is the reason he was weakened as a PM and leader.
> 
> ...



I suggest you read the links again before going on about Conspiracy theories 

Especially the third link.

One radio station in one city? No. One station in 3 cities. 2GB, 3AW, 4BC big audience reach.

It's worth pointing out your ABC article is covering a period after those radio stations were sold by the Murdoch media.

But like I said... read the third link... it answers all your questions especiialy the ones you say it doesn't.









						What two billionaire media moguls had to do with the Liberal leadership spill
					

Malcolm Turnbull's demise was unusual for many reasons, and truly unique for one: his was the first known prime ministership to be the subject of a billionaires' tug of war between the nation's most powerful media moguls.




					www.abc.net.au
				




As for stopping crying about the loss... well ... if the cap fitz ....


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I suggest you read the links again before going on about Conspiracy theories
> 
> Especially the third link.
> 
> ...




It was you that mentioned one radio station in one city "_ I live in *Sydney* where at that time *the* right wing talkback* radio station* was owned by Murdoch and they bashed Turnbull all day every day_".


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It was you that mentioned one radio station in one city "_ I live in *Sydney* where at that time *the* right wing talkback* radio station* was owned by Murdoch and they bashed Turnbull all day every day_".



Of course I said that. What's your point? Are you suggesting I listened to 3 different radio stations in 3 different cities 800klms apart all at the same time?


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## wayneL (4 August 2022)

Turnbull really appealed to Labor voters and the ABC Trots, and that about all anyone needs to know about why he lost the Libs.

FWIW


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Of course I said that. What's your point? Are you suggesting I listened to 3 different radio stations in 3 different cities 800klms apart all at the same time?



My point is that you have over simplified the cause of Turnbull's loss of the Liberal leadership, put all the blame onto one media organisation, not taken into account that multiple MPs took it upon themselves to leak damaging material to media and worked against Turnbull thus making him look a poor leader, and that voters come from all walks of life and not all use the same media sources that you do.


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> My point is that you have over simplified the cause of Turnbull's loss of the Liberal leadership, put all the blame onto one media organisation, not taken into account that multiple MPs took it upon themselves to leak damaging material to media and worked against Turnbull thus making him look a poor leader, and that voters come from all walks of life and not all use the same media sources that you do.



I never said all use the same media sources that I do - that's your over simplified conclusion. 

Clearly you are not reading the link so I'll just post the best bits of it here.

_"Mr Stokes told Mr Murdoch that rolling Mr Turnbull would deliver government to Labor, that the industrial relations landscape would see the likes of the CFMEU thrive.

Mr Murdoch's reply? One version, told to the ABC, is that Mr Murdoch told Mr Stokes:

"We have got to get rid of Malcolm. If that's the price of getting rid of him then I can put up with three years of Labor."
A remarkably similar version was told to the Australian Financial Review. In it, Mr Murdoch told Mr Stokes: "They'll only be in for three years — it won't be so bad. I did alright under Labor and the Painters and Dockers; I can make money under Shorten and the CFMEU."_

Simple enough for you ?


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I never said all use the same media sources that I do - that's your over simplified conclusion.
> 
> Clearly you are not reading the link so I'll just post the best bits of it here.
> 
> ...




You have given nothing but hearsay. 

The quotes that you posted, who made them? 

Was it Stokes or Murdoch?


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> You have given nothing but hearsay.
> 
> The quotes that you posted, who made them?
> 
> Was it Stokes or Murdoch?



I have given what you don't want to hear and that's why you're dragging this out for the sake of nothing.

Why ask who made the quotes ? More denial dribble ?


----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> I have given what you don't want to hear and that's why you're dragging this out for the sake of nothing.
> 
> Why ask who made the quotes ? More denial dribble ?




No, you have only given what you believe. However, can you give the name of the person that you quote.

It is so easy to fling mud, harder to prove where the mud came from.

As sptrawler mention "why condemn one side" "the truth lies somewhere in the middle"

Condemning the source because you didn't like the outcome is easy. Standing back and looking at the whole picture and accepting that more people saw it differently is hard for some.

The people made up their own mind and voted. If they thought that they were hoodwinked they had another opportunity to vote at the following election.


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## sptrawler (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> So you are saying that because one media organisation ‘bashed Turnbull every day’ and Turnbull was unable to rally his team and give them confidence. Which lead to some in the Liberal party to call for a no-confidence vote in their leader.



Absolutely spot on.
The other issue with regard Turnbull is, since the vote of no confidence by his team, he has done his utmost to undermine the team.
Which in my opinion re enforces that it was a correct decision.
You can't have a leader, who as soon as he is deposed turns and becomes a traitor to the team, why was the person in the team in the first place? If not to promote the team beliefs, why be in the team, other than for personal gain or public exposure.
Run as an independent, if you can't agree with the parties  political agenda, simple really.


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No, you have only given what you believe. However, can you give the name of the person that you quote.
> 
> It is so easy to fling mud, harder to prove where the mud came from.
> 
> ...



So what you're saying is all those links I've posted are just my belief and not real ? That one takes the cake.

As for standing back and looking at the whole picture well I suggest you start backing up your claims. I've given you enough links for you to read to back up my claims - so far you've given us nothing to back yours.

The people had no opportunity to vote - you can't use an election that took place the following year to say the people had their say on these events. That is false logic.

As you are constantly wasting your time posting the same denial I'm not going to waste any more time feeding it.

At the end of the day - all you're doing is grandstanding - just like Murdoch's man Peter Dutton is doing right now in parliament... running the same line over and over again like a broken record hoping to land a point against the Govt whilst becoming irrelevant in the process.

Their plan to derail the climate change policy has just failed as of yesterday now that we finally have a progressive senate instead of a hostile one when Abbott was running the Libs.

They are now reduced to an irrelevancy like never before - just like your conspiracy theories are in this thread.

See Ya


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> So what you're saying is all those links I've posted are just my belief and not real ? That one takes the cake.
> 
> As for standing back and looking at the whole picture well I suggest you start backing up your claims. I've given you enough links for you to read to back up my claims - so far you've given us nothing to back yours.
> 
> ...







> PZ99
> So what you're saying is all those links I've posted are just my belief and not real ? That one takes the cake.
> 
> As for standing back and looking at the whole picture well I suggest you start backing up your claims. I've given you enough links for you to read to back up my claims - so far you've given us nothing to back yours.
> ...




I must now presume that you have no idea who allegedly said those quotes that your argument relies on, and so you have spat the dummy.

Ciao


----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Turnbull really appealed to Labor voters and the ABC Trots, and that about all anyone needs to know about why he lost the Libs.
> 
> FWIW




There is more to it than that, but yes those factors do seem to have contributed to the outcome.


----------



## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I must now presume that you have no idea who allegedly said those quotes that your argument relies on, and so you have spat the dummy.
> 
> Ciao



You presumed wrong because you are just running a position of automatic denial to everything that's been presented to you.

No one can force you to see what you don't want to see


----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

> PZ99
> You presumed wrong because you are just running a position of automatic denial to everything that's been presented to you.
> 
> No one can force you to see what you don't want to see




Ok, let us know when you find the source of those quotes that support your argument.

Ciao


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The other issue with regard Turnbull is, since the vote of no confidence by his team, he has done his utmost to undermine the team.
> Which in my opinion re enforces that it was a correct decision.
> You can't have a leader, who as soon as he is deposed turns and becomes a traitor to the team, why was the person in the team in the first place? If not to promote the team beliefs, why be in the team, other than for personal gain or public exposure.
> Run as an independent, if you can't agree with the parties  political agenda, simple really.




I have to agree with that. Looks like his true character came out at the end and to this day.


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Ok, let us know when you find the source of those quotes that support your argument.
> 
> Ciao



I got a better idea. How about you find it yourself given you're the one the offering a challenge to it.

Ciao to you too


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

> PZ99
> I got a better idea. How about you find it yourself given you're the one the offering a challenge to it.
> 
> Ciao to you too




As you well know there is nothing to find, no one put their name to those quotes of yours.

Your whole case stands on that an ABC program said two people had conspired to bring down a Prime Minister, and there is a silent witness that heard the whole conversation. We don't know who the witness is, whether they were part of the conversation or eavesdropping, are they credible witnesses or do they have a gripe, or was the reporter roleplaying the situation from gossip.


----------



## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> As you well know there is nothing to find, no one put their name to those quotes of yours.
> 
> Your whole case stands on that an ABC program said two people had conspired to bring down a Prime Minister, and there is a silent witness that heard the whole conversation. We don't know who the witness is, whether they were part of the conversation or eavesdropping, are they credible witnesses or do they have a gripe, or was the reporter roleplaying the situation from gossip.



Turnbull actually spoke directly to both people and gave the same response as the witness.

If you don't know who the witness is why are you assuming it's not real ?

If you have nothing to find - you have nothing to add.

Bye


----------



## PZ99 (4 August 2022)




----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

> PZ99
> Turnbull actually spoke directly to both people and gave the same response as the witness.
> 
> If you don't know who the witness is why are you assuming it's not real ?
> ...




Nothing to find, yes you are correct.

_Mr Stokes has told the ABC in a statement the answer to the question of what he had to do with the Liberal leadership spill was: "*Absolutely nothing, full stop*"._​​_Mr Stokes said he had never been involved in leadership events "nor autopsies of them like the one you have published"._​​_His statement suggested there had been "spin from parties attempting to re-write history" that the ABC should not be "accepting on face value"._​


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Nothing to find, yes you are correct.
> 
> _Mr Stokes has told the ABC in a statement the answer to the question of what he had to do with the Liberal leadership spill was: "*Absolutely nothing, full stop*"._​​_Mr Stokes said he had never been involved in leadership events "nor autopsies of them like the one you have published"._​​_His statement suggested there had been "spin from parties attempting to re-write history" that the ABC should not be "accepting on face value"._​



"Nothing to find, yes you are correct" So now you've lowered yourself down to misquoting me ?

What a doozy. 

Dude... it was Murdoch against Turnbull. Not Stokes. 

What you've just posted there is less than nothing.


----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

> PZ99
> Dude... it was Murdoch against Turnbull. Not Stokes.
> 
> What you've just posted there is less than nothing.




It is you that is name dropping -


> PZ99
> Clearly you are not reading the link so I'll just post the best bits of it here.
> "*Mr Stokes* told *Mr Murdoch* that rolling Mr Turnbull would deliver government to Labor, that the industrial relations landscape would see the likes of the CFMEU thrive.




And to remind you - 

_Mr Stokes has told the ABC in a statement the answer to the question of what he had to do with the Liberal leadership spill was: "*Absolutely nothing, full stop*".
Mr Stokes said he had never been involved in leadership events "nor autopsies of them like the one you have published".
His statement suggested there had been "spin from parties attempting to re-write history" that the ABC should not be "accepting on face value"._


----------



## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It is you that is name dropping -



Me name dropping ? I didn't write the article.

WOW you just don't get it do you ? WOW


----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

> PZ99
> Me name dropping ? I didn't write the article.




You just quoted the parts that you want and ignore what doesn't fit with your narrative.


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> You just quoted the parts that you want and ignored what doesn't fit with your narrative.



That actually says more about you than me.

You are merely demonstrating the very faults you see in someone else simply because you don't agree with them.

Too Bad


----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

> PZ99
> That actually says more about you than me.
> 
> You are merely demonstrating the very faults you see in someone else simply because you don't agree with them.
> ...




I see that your original discussion has turned to small remarks about me, rather than answer the question that will clarify your view instead you now side-track.

As a reminder, the question is -

You have given nothing but hearsay.​​*The quotes that you posted, who made them?*​​*Was it Stokes or Murdoch?*​


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I see that your original discussion has turned to small remarks about me, rather than answer the question that will clarify your view instead you now side-track.
> 
> As a reminder, the question is -
> 
> You have given nothing but hearsay.​​*The quotes that you posted, who made them?*​​*Was it Stokes or Murdoch?*​



I'm not side tracking anything. That's your caper. 

All your questions have been answered in print and in video. Your response is avoidance. 

And if you want to call highlighting your hypocrisy a small remark about you then that's fine with me.


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## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

> PZ99
> All your questions have been answered in print and in video




Just answer the question

You have given nothing but hearsay.​*The quotes that you posted, who made them?*​*Was it Stokes or Murdoch?*​


----------



## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Just answer the question
> 
> You have given nothing but hearsay.​*The quotes that you posted, who made them?*​*Was it Stokes or Murdoch?*​



Just read the answer

All your questions have been answered in print and in video.


----------



## IFocus (4 August 2022)

Mean while this.


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## PZ99 (4 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Mean while this.




Funny thing is the woke term isn't flung around as much as it used to be.

These people keep reviving it.


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## sptrawler (4 August 2022)

As is being shown by Albo's popularity, all people want is to believe that the politician has Australia's best interest at heart, the crux of the matter is the swinging voter who takes the middle ground wins the day.
It doesn't matter if the media has a left bent or a right bent, Labor won the election yet Albo pre election had a poor popularity rating, since the election it has steadily improved.
If he can continue to walk the middle ground, I'm sure he will become a very popular labor leader as McGowan has, by walking the middle ground and not pandering to pressure groups or the media narrative.
Taking sides and ridiculous stances is doomed to fail, as the sensible middle ground will be alienated, then the momentum shifts.
The major parties will always keep their rusted on vote, but it isn't the rusted on vote that decides an election, if it was the same party would always be returned to office, the election is decided by the voters who decide by what each party is offering and presenting and vote accordingly.
As was shown in the 2019 election the middle ground didn't like what labor was selling, this election was won on the lowest primary vote ever, because the middle ground wasn't sure but were fed up with the Liberals.
It is up to Albo and his front bench to consolidate their position before the next election and they have made a good start.


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## sptrawler (8 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Kristina Keneally  like most political failures blames outside influences for her defeat by another female immigrant.
> The red bandana boy gave her s sympathetic hearing.
> Mick



See the red bandana muppet is bullying Jacinta Price now, he is a piece of work. Calls out people for bad behaviour, when he is the nastiest bully in the media, absolute dick.

Price pleads with ‘bully’ FitzSimons​Peter FitzSimons bombarded Jacinta Nampijinpa Price with a series of late-night text messages making legal threats against the Indigenous senator.


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## wayneL (9 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> See the red bandana muppet is bullying Jacinta Price now, he is a piece of work. Calls out people for bad behaviour, when he is the nastiest bully in the media, absolute dick.
> 
> Price pleads with ‘bully’ FitzSimons​Peter FitzSimons bombarded Jacinta Nampijinpa Price with a series of late-night text messages making legal threats against the Indigenous senator.





sptrawler said:


> See the red bandana muppet is bullying Jacinta Price now, he is a piece of work. Calls out people for bad behaviour, when he is the nastiest bully in the media, absolute dick.
> 
> Price pleads with ‘bully’ FitzSimons​Peter FitzSimons bombarded Jacinta Nampijinpa Price with a series of late-night text messages making legal threats against the Indigenous senator.



The toxicity of this egregious tw@t is truly epic. It will be interesting who of the the left will support him. It will highlight their moral bankruptcy and the proportion of their megalithic hypocrisy.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 August 2022)

The demise of the NSW liberals has been completed with the election of Matt Kean as the deputy leader.
Watch now as the slimy little turd continues his undermining of Perottet  so that Matt can take the reins.
NSW labour only has to keep a low profile , do nothing outlandish, promise a few small things , and they will sail out of the opposition seats into the ruling seats.

Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (9 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The demise of the NSW liberals has been completed with the election of Matt Kean as the deputy leader.
> Watch now as the slimy little turd continues his undermining of Perottet  so that Matt can take the reins.
> NSW labour only has to keep a low profile , do nothing outlandish, promise a few small things , and they will sail out of the opposition seats into the ruling seats.
> 
> Mick



And a new corruption issue with the Vic Opposition and they don't even have any power yet!! Caught red handed trying to rip off their billionaire donors for personal gain.
Dan Andrews is now setting the police on to them and just laughing and the donors are upset.
Really annoyed they let Matthew Guy backstab the previous leader and get back in charge ready to lose again. Talk about giving Dan Andrews a free ride. Time to sack him again.









						Minister’s letter reveals details of allegations against opposition leader
					

Matthew Guy stared down nervous MPs and attacks from the government on Tuesday after the resignation of his chief of staff following a donation scandal.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (9 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> And a new corruption issue with the Vic Opposition and they don't even have any power yet!!
> Dan Andrews is now setting the police on to them and just laughing.
> Really annoyed they let Matthew Guy backstab the previous leader and get back in charge ready to lose again.
> 
> ...



It is just a microcosm of the political class in Australia.
Nepotism, Jobs for the boys, the inability  to see that some action may be viewed or reported as corruption, surrounding yourself  with people who all think like you do, not tolerating any dissenting opinion, the list goes on.
Mick


----------



## PZ99 (9 August 2022)

Bring it on I say... the more people see the rope around their necks the more independents get in.


----------



## sptrawler (9 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> It is just a microcosm of the political class in Australia.
> Nepotism, Jobs for the boys, the inability  to see that some action may be viewed or reported as corruption, surrounding yourself  with people who all think like you do, not tolerating any dissenting opinion, the list goes on.
> Mick



That is exactly why I said any ICAC should be completely separate from politics, having the Govt select the ICAC is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house IMO, an absolute joke.
Every State ICAC currently in service is in some sort of internal or external crisis, they sound to me like an extension department of whichever party is in office IMO.






						Commission of Inquiry relating to the Crime and Corruption Commission | Department of Justice and Attorney-General
					






					www.justice.qld.gov.au
				












						As a NSW premier falls and SA guts its anti-corruption commission, what are the lessons for integrity bodies in Australia?
					

South Australia has shown other Australian jurisdictions what not to do with their anti-corruption bodies, especially the proposed federal integrity commission.




					theconversation.com


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2022)

@SirRumpole it sounds like the union might be getting it's mojo back, about time after 40 years, better late than never.








						ACTU presses for radical overhaul of economic structures to boost jobs
					

Sally McManus, the peak union body’s secretary, says raising living standards “will require more than fiddling around the edges”.




					www.smh.com.au
				




But having said that, there are a lot of home truths about lazy people they have to address, if they can't do that they are doomed to the never ending bin of hypocrisy. Lol


----------



## sptrawler (12 August 2022)

Oh well I suppose Zali will find out how many of her voters were protest voters and how many actually wanted her in.









						Zali Steggall seeks crowdfunding for extra staff after Albanese’s cuts
					

The Warringah MP will also ask for the prime minister to be stripped of the power to decide parliamentarians’ staffing.




					www.watoday.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (15 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Oh well I suppose Zali will find out how many of her voters were protest voters and how many actually wanted her in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Holy cow, crowd funding from a politician to get extra staff.
And it seems its not only legal, ok with the crowd funders rip off merchants,  but it looks like there are enough suckers to  put into make the target.
Cupla questions.
Who pays when the money runs out and not enough crowd funding for the army of workers?
What promises will she give to her donors in return?
Will she check to see if any of those evil Land Developers or gaming  businesses make contributions?
From the Evil murdoch Empire


> Peter Costello acted as an undisclosed Crown lobbyist, working personally for James Packer as he attempted to get “closer” to the Victorian gaming minister, the billionaire businessman has alleged in private correspondence with the former federal treasurer.
> In the emails, Mr Packer accuses Mr Costello of hypocrisy and deceiving the Nine Entertainment board, which he chairs, about his time as a “secret Crown lobbyist” in 2011.
> 
> “Your job was to get me closer to (then gaming minister) Michael O’Brien,” Mr Packer wrote to Mr Costello in July, adding he paid the Future Fund chairman $300,000 “to lobby for me, for Crown”.



Surpise Surprise, Costello was not a registered lobbyist at the time.
Now  with the news that Costello was paid 300,00 by Packer to act as secret lobbyist proves , he surely must resign from the Future Fund, plus any other public or political bodies.
I am not the first person, nor will be the last, to say, just follow the money.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

At last we have a Government in that is a allowed to take on the sacred cows and highlights why we have to flip Governments. As I said pre election we need Labor in to sort out problems the coalition isn't allowed to.








						Australia news LIVE: Organised crime strips more than $1b from NDIS; Scott Morrison swore himself in to additional portfolios as PM
					

There are fears organised criminals are exploiting the National Disability Insurance Scheme, marine scientists have rejected a key assertion by the environment minister and Labor plans to bring in tens of thousands of skilled migrants to fill chronic labour shortages.




					www.smh.com.au
				



The minister said NDIS rorting appears to be occurring in two or three ways.

“Through coercion and other criminal tactics, accessing the accounts and putting in invoices. So that’s one way,” he said.

Loading
“But I also suspect that there’s ghosting where false invoices and false clients might be being made up. I want to find out if that’s true. But then there’s another way... it’s just the padding of bills by people who might be not connected to organised crime, but they’re just robbing the scheme.

“I also worry that the fraud or overpayment is occurring through a lack of scrutiny of the invoices.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> At last we have a Government in that is a allowed to take on the sacred cows and highlights why we have to flip Governments. As I said pre election we need Labor in to sort out problems the coalition isn't allowed to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Anytime government money is available the crims come out.

I'm surprised people are surprised. They should be looking at other areas as well, unemployment benefits for example.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Anytime government money is available the crims come out.
> 
> I'm surprised people are surprised. They should be looking at other areas as well, unemployment benefits for example.



You could also add the Childcare industry as a great source of criminal income, along with same day payday lending,  medical diagnostic rorts.
Mick


----------



## InsvestoBoy (15 August 2022)

I'll just leave this here https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08...try-appointments-to-be-investigated/101332916


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

InsvestoBoy said:


> I'll just leave this here https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08...try-appointments-to-be-investigated/101332916



Yes I think Mark McGowan is doing the same in W.A and the good thing is, it is working the States never run better. 😂


----------



## orr (15 August 2022)

Morrison's distaste for scrutiny in fact his detestation of it could only be match by my detestation of this most ignominious of excutive office holders. All the more satisfying that for schmuck schmo scrutiny is coming. And Ignominy is assured.

you carn't always correctly assess character of a man from get-go. And in morrison's case I didn't; No.. he's a cur of much deeper sounding than I first thought.

I'm yet to meet an ICAC I haven't liked.


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2022)

orr said:


> Morrison's distaste for scrutiny in fact his detestation of it could only be match by my detestation of this most ignominious of excutive office holders. All the more satisfying that for schmuck schmo scrutiny is coming. And Ignominy is assured.
> 
> you carn't always correctly assess character of a man from get-go. And in morrison's case I didn't; No.. he's a cur of much deeper sounding than I first thought.
> 
> I'm yet to meet an ICAC I haven't liked.



Yeah! How about that Victorian one, hey?

In any case I think the Marxists among us have just opened Pandora's Box. The law of unintended consequences is quite clear that we are in for a new bout mccarthyism next.... And you lot will have thoroughly deserved it.


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yeah! How about that Victorian one, hey?
> 
> In any case I think the Marxists among us have just opened Pandora's Box. The law of unintended consequences is quite clear that we are in for a new bout mccarthyism next.... And you lot will have thoroughly deserved it.



It's only o.k to run a dictatorship, if you are on the left of the fence, what a comedy.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 August 2022)

Grace Tame slammed for refusing to smile near the Prime Minister, Health Minister, Resources Minister and Finance Minister.

 (thanks to the Chaser)

A reporter today  asked Dutton if Morrison was the Defence Minister and Dutton said he didn’t believe so but he wasn't sure.

Honestly the Governor General failed his job. Secretly doing this. This is sinister. The Queen wouldn't do it.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yeah! How about that Victorian one, hey?
> 
> In any case I think the Marxists among us have just opened Pandora's Box. The law of unintended consequences is quite clear that we are in for a new bout mccarthyism next.... And you lot will have thoroughly deserved it.



What Victorian one ?


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Grace Tame slammed for refusing to smile near the Prime Minister, Health Minister, Resources Minister and Finance Minister.
> 
> (thanks to the Chaser)
> 
> ...



If you can keep the emotion and hype out of it, I suppose from Morrisons point of view, he was hammered on everything during the pandemic.
Vaccines, RAT's, quarantine facilities, masks, China and everything in between, he had to run the heads of the States meetings every other week, plus the media where at him endlessly.

So if you or I were in his position, you would want to be all over things especially the finance and health issues and would want to be read in on everything that came across the desks.
You wouldn't be leaving it up to someone else, to decide what was important enough to tell and what wasn't.

Especially when the media had a field day, over you not being here during bushfires, floods and anything else they could find to criticise you about.
So really if it was legal to be sworn in to to get informed on all and every new bit of information in the critical portfolio's, I would think it would be quite smart and very pertinent to do so, especially through a critical time like the pandemic, where money was flying around like there was no tomorrow.
If Morrison had not had all the info, the media would have crucified him and he wouldn't have been able to successfully run the meetings with the Premiers.

What Albo has to be careful of, is he doesn't get too critical of something he may be required to do himself, as was shown when he was overseas recently, when the floods were on.

Throwing bricks in glass houses has a tendency to end badly.
Just my two cents worth, but apparently I'm a turnip.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If you can keep the emotion and hype out of it, I suppose from Morrisons point of view, he was hammered on everything during the pandemic.
> Vaccines, RAT's, quarantine facilities, masks, China and everything in between, he had to run the heads of the States meetings every other week, plus the media where at him endlessly.
> 
> So if you or I were in his position, you would want to be all over things especially the finance and health issues and would want to be read in on everything that came across the desks.
> ...



Yea, Mugabe was misunderstood.
A PM forced to act as a President as everyone around him was incompetent.


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, Mugabe was misunderstood.



O.K only a different take on it, it certainly isn't going to cause me any angst, everyone will be heading to the sheds for the pitchforks. 😂


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What Victorian one ?



I think he is referring to uncle Dan, the Victorians have a history of loving a bit of discipline. 😂 








						Chairman Dan gains unassailable election lead
					

Despite mass ministerial resignations/retirements, Melbourne’s seven months of hard lockdowns, mass privatisations (despite promising otherwise), and a raft of corruption scandals, Daniel Andrews’ Victorian Government is headed for an even bigger majority at the upcoming Victorian election: The...




					www.macrobusiness.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (15 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If you can keep the emotion and hype out of it, I suppose from Morrisons point of view, he was hammered on everything during the pandemic.
> Vaccines, RAT's, quarantine facilities, masks, China and everything in between, he had to run the heads of the States meetings every other week, plus the media where at him endlessly.
> 
> So if you or I were in his position, you would want to be all over things especially the finance and health issues and would want to be read in on everything that came across the desks.
> ...



So why did he find it necessary not to tell the public and even the other Ministers involved ?

What did he have to hide ?


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So why did he find it necessary not to tell the public and even the other Ministers involved ?
> 
> What did he have to hide ?



I haven't been following it, just read what you guys have posted up, but like I said you might find that he had to be sworn in to actually be sent all the sensitive info that usually just goes to those departments.
He actually may not have wanted to have any input to the portfolio and just wanted to be privy to the info and that may have required he be sworn in to get it?
I'm sure it will come out in the end, at the moment it is just a media circus, getting the muppets on their hind legs and the parsnips. 😂
I always try to look for an obvious reason for something, not just take what the media is screaming out as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
If it proves illegal and sinister it will come out and there will be trouble, to be always be hoping something is sinister and illegal is how the media sells its papers.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I haven't been following it, just read what you guys have posted up, but like I said you might find that he had to be sworn in to actually be sent all the sensitive info that usually just goes to those departments.
> He actually may not have wanted to have any input to the portfolio and just wanted to be privy to the info and that may have required he be sworn in to get it?
> I'm sure it will come out in the end, at the moment it is just a media circus, getting the muppets on their hind legs and the parsnips. 😂



He used it. He overruled the Resources minister without needing to go to Cabinet just before he called the election.

Maybe you should read what happened before calling others muppets.

Maybe try The Australian  who were the ones that broke this or listen to Barnaby Joyce.


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> He used it. He overruled the Resources minister without needing to go to Cabinet just before he called the election.
> 
> Maybe you should read what happened before calling others muppets.
> 
> Maybe try The Australian  who were the ones that broke this or listen to Barnaby Joyce.



If you read what I wrote, I was talking about the health and finance portfolio's and giving what I thought was a rational scenario for a PM to be sworn in to that portfolio.
As for the resources issue I have no idea why that would happen, but one would assume it will come out.
As for muppets, there are endless examples of the muppets running around like chooks with their heads chopped of, due to a media story which has no rhyme or reason.
As I gave in the example with Albo being overseas, it isn't as though the country stops because he or any other individual is that critical, the country can't function without them.
Yet the media fires the muppets up at every opportunity over that very issue.
As for a P.M to act as a president, I think the media has actually brought that about, by expecting the P.M to be all over the top of every issue in every portfolio as Albo found out pre election when he couldn't recall facts.
The media also intimate that everyone other than the P.M is incompetent, by demanding that the P.M be here whenever there is an out of the ordinary event, there are Federal and State dept's, yet the P.M is required back according to the media and the muppets.


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What Victorian one ?



That would be this little paper tiger that Mao Tse Dan can thumb his nose at with apparent impunity.









						Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission | IBAC
					

We are an anti-corruption agency responsible for identifying and preventing corruption and police misconduct across the public sector



					www.ibac.vic.gov.au


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> That would be this little paper tiger that Mao Tse Dan can thumb his nose at with apparent impunity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The political tribalism over East is amazingly polarising IMO, it is like the footy and rugby I guess, where the supporters are rusted on.
I was just thinking, what would have been said if Morrison had spent hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars, on paying Murdoch to build a quarantine facility on Murdoch land, next to a Murdoch privately owned airstrip.
I mean seriously could you imagine the uproar, it would have gone ballistic, yet when someone else does that very little is said.
Really strange IMO, thankfully most voters are middle of the road and also I'm very grateful I live here in the West.


----------



## sptrawler (15 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So why did he find it necessary not to tell the public and even the other Ministers involved ?
> 
> What did he have to hide ?



Another article on the issue.








						Scott Morrison says he is not 'engaged in any day-to-day politics' amid revelations of secret ministry jobs
					

The Governor-General confirmed the former prime minister was given additional powers during his tenure.




					www.sbs.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> That would be this little paper tiger that Mao Tse Dan can thumb his nose at with apparent impunity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Allegations against Andrews were investigated and nothing was found against him.

Are you saying IBAC is corrupt ?


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Allegations against Andrews were investigated and nothing was found against him.
> 
> Are you saying IBAC is corrupt ?



Even an Old Bailey hack knows that words have precise meanings and no inferences should be drawn beyond what is written, Horace.


----------



## PZ99 (16 August 2022)

Hehe... a post about political tribalism from an incessant serial anti left ranter calling others muppets ? Nah.

Love the avatar btw


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Even an Old Bailey hack knows that words have precise meanings and no inferences should be drawn beyond what is written, Horace.



As usual, nothing substantial,  just verbal misdirection and vagueness.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Allegations against Andrews were investigated and nothing was found against him.
> 
> Are you saying IBAC is corrupt ?



Where ever there is power and an ability to influence outcomes, there is always a high probability that those who are corrupt are attracted.
Just the same as where ever there is easy access to children, there would be a greater likelihood of pedophiles being attracted.
Human nature.
I'm not sure on the backstory to this article, but when I googled ICAC investigated for corruption this story came up.
As I've already said I feel an ICAC should be a section of the police IMO.









						Inside the downfall of Qld’s corruption watchdog
					

Queensland’s top anti-corruption boss quit in January in the state’s biggest integrity crisis since Joh Bjelke-Petersen. Now there are concerns the inquiry that toppled him was lopsided.




					www.afr.com
				



This series of events plunged Queensland into what may be its biggest integrity crisis in decades, ever since the corruption agency was established after the Fitzgerald inquiry into the Joh Bjelke-Petersen government.

But this isn’t just a Queensland story. Across Australia, anti-corruption watchdogs are being called into question by political forces subjected to scrutiny at the same time Scott Morrison and Anthony Albanese battle over the creation of a federal version.

_The Australian Financial Review’s_ investigation of the evidence before the Queensland parliament shows concerns were raised that it may have conducted a lopsided probe into MacSporran and his watchdog.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> As usual, nothing substantial,  just verbal misdirection and vagueness.



Andrews simply kept silent. From coronavirus guards to China contracts. Dodgy stuff went on.


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2022)

Here Horace, from one of your own Rags https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/07/21/dan-andrews-leads-rotten-government-should-resign/


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> He used it. He overruled the Resources minister without needing to go to Cabinet just before he called the election.
> 
> Maybe you should read what happened before calling others muppets.
> 
> Maybe try The Australian  who were the ones that broke this or listen to Barnaby Joyce.



Always being so angry and wound up, can't be good for your health, the 'Australian' has a block I can't get through so I can't read that and I don't know Barnaby Joyce's phone number. 😂 









						Scott Morrison apologises to colleagues for secret ministry grab, as former home affairs minister calls on him to quit parliament
					

A senior Liberal frontbencher says former prime minister Scott Morrison must quit parliament, after learning her role was jointly controlled by him without her knowledge or that of the nation's top intelligence officials.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I've already said I feel an ICAC should be a section of the police IMO.




The police of several States have been shown to be the most corrupt people in the country over our history.

Are you sure you want them investigating themselves ?


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Scott Morrison apologises to colleagues for secret ministry grab, as former home affairs minister calls on him to quit parliament
> 
> 
> A senior Liberal frontbencher says former prime minister Scott Morrison must quit parliament, after learning her role was jointly controlled by him without her knowledge or that of the nation's top intelligence officials.
> ...



Seems a reasonable excuse considering it was unknown how covid was going to play out. 
Stopping the petroleum exploration licence off the NSW Central Coast was a good thing. But looked like an "optics" play.

I just thought scomo was a micromanaging dick and this move was right up his alley. Not sure he broke any laws though?
Not unless he received some monetary benefits.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The police of several States have been shown to be the most corrupt people in the country over our history.
> 
> Are you sure you want them investigating themselves ?



Like I said where there is a position of power and an ability to pervert outcomes, corrupt people gravitate to it, the thing is the police are an independent organisation that if they are caught severe penalties apply.
With an ICAC, from my understanding they are just about selected by the politicians they are meant to keeping an eye on, at least one level of separation is required IMO.
As with everything something is better than nothing, but then you read about the Wellcamp issue and from the other side of Australia you wonder what is going on, when very little is being voiced in the media.
There is no point in paying for an ICAC, if all they are doing is giving legitimacy to poor conduct.
The media does that, just make stronger laws so that heavier personal penalties apply for political corruption and misconduct and have the police enforce them. You will never stamp out corruption, all you can do is make the penalties severe enough that those who are wavering on corruption, decide it isn't worth it to cross the line. 
As W.A inc highlighted, some will cross the line no matter what, both Liberal and Labor politicians ended up in gaol. It is one of the reasons I'm apolitical, I don't think corruption resides in only one side of politics and I don't think all politicians are there for the countries benefit.








						WA Inc - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## mullokintyre (16 August 2022)

I do not want ANY unelected  organisations or people within them to have the final say over corruption.
When (no if about it)  corruption is  observed, the people are the final arbiters, they vote the parasites out.
Police, IBACs, secret services,  etc  can be just as corrupt as politicians.
These orgs have to be  the servants of the people, and it is the people who must decide whether someone stays in office.
There have been far too many peoples lives and careers ruined by unsubstantiated and unproven allegations by these investigative bodies, that seem to think they are above everyone else.
I have no time for them and wish they would take their egos and crawl back under the rock from whence they came.
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (16 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Seems a reasonable excuse considering it was unknown how covid was going to play out.
> Stopping the petroleum exploration licence off the NSW Central Coast was a good thing. But looked like an "optics" play.
> 
> I just thought scomo was a micromanaging dick and this move was right up his alley. Not sure he broke any laws though?
> Not unless he received some monetary benefits.



The PM did his job.  He appointed ministers (which happened to be himself).  The problem is with the Australian Constitution as It does not have the required checks.  Anyways, the people spoke and voted that sh*t show government out of power.  

Albo should stop whinging and get on with governing as there is nothing stopping labor from introducing a bill that requires all appointments to be publicly disclosed within 7 days of GG approval or something like that.   Fix the issue and move on.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Always being so angry and wound up, can't be good for your health, the 'Australian' has a block I can't get through so I can't read that and I don't know Barnaby Joyce's phone number. 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Barnaby was a bit angry. He was just pointing out a few things. Don't think he liked Morrison much.

I find it quite amusing in a way. More to come out today. There will be laws passed after this. 

Records show he held a Cabinet meeting with himself alone to do stuff without the rest of the coalition knowing. It's quite unbelievable. 

One thing it has revealed a problem with the Governor General system. No one thought he would sign up secret ministers and hide it from the party in power and everyone else.

I mean how do we even know Morrison was the real Prime Minister


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Barnaby was a bit angry. He was just pointing out a few things. Don't think he liked Morrison much.
> 
> I find it quite amusing in a way. More to come out today. There will be laws passed after this.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure, but in the case of a national emergency or crisis, you may find the precedent has already been set e.g the War etc.

A lot of the issue as I've said revolves around the media constantly attacking the leader, no matter which party they belong to, on every issue across every portfolio and if they can't answer the media get into hyperdrive.
like I said they did it with Albo, during the election campaign, if as happened with Morrison you are in charge during a national emergency and 24/7 news coverage you have to be across everything. So I can actually understand it happening, not all your ministers are geniuses and not all the information is passed on.

During the pandemic there were billions and billions of dollars flying around and Morrison had to know where they were going, what they were paying for, how much and what the status was on each and every issue. Not easy.
I think as usual it is a mountain out of a molehill, but if something has been done incorrectly as you say it will be addressed, hopefully not by the media.   

On a personal note Morrison wasn't my cup of tea, but IMO he was extremely competent and had a hell of memory for detail. But as @moXJO said too much of a micro manager and as with a lot of religious people, too invested in their own opinion for my tastes.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Here Horace, from one of your own Rags https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/07/21/dan-andrews-leads-rotten-government-should-resign/




Someone's opinion, others may not agree. The voters will decide.


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Someone's opinion, others may not agree. The voters will decide.



Mate, he made a speech taking responsibility for the corruption.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Mate, he made a speech taking responsibility for the corruption.



Victorians still love him, weird taste in my opinion. 😂


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not sure, but in the case of a national emergency or crisis, you may find the precedent has already been set e.g the War etc.
> 
> A lot of the issue as I've said revolves around the media constantly attacking the leader, no matter which party they belong to, on every issue across every portfolio and if they can't answer the media get into hyperdrive.
> like I said they did it with Albo, during the election campaign, if as happened with Morrison you are in charge during a national emergency and 24/7 news coverage you have to be across everything. So I can actually understand it happening, not all your ministers are geniuses and not all the information is passed on.
> ...



Why is albo making a big deal out of this?
Is there an unpleasant announcement coming up?
Perhaps to influence the state elections.

Labor is better off by just shutting up and governing because it looks suss.
If they cant ping Morrison on legal, then it just looks like a political hit.
I haven't noticed Labor and that's a good thing. They are keeping it pretty clean so far.
Start these wars and it gets the swing voters offside.


----------



## Belli (16 August 2022)

The Devil made me do it.  Praise be the Lord.

May not believe in government but certainly believes in power - provided no one knows about it.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Why is albo making a big deal out of this?
> Is there an unpleasant announcement coming up?
> Perhaps to influence the state elections.
> 
> ...



Labor is allowed to make a bit of a crack though, its pretty crap.
It will be the Libs that handle Morrison though, 5 ministries now!!.

*Former home affairs minister Karen Andrews said she did not know Mr Morrison had assumed control over her portfolio, and said he should resign from parliament.*

"I had absolutely no knowledge and was not told by the [prime minister, the prime minister's office] nor the department secretary," Ms Andrews said.

"This undermines the integrity of government."


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> "This undermines the integrity of government."



Translation:
"How DARE he work too hard. This is the Australian parliament"


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2022)

If it's illegal it should be stated so. Otherwise it just looks like a sht throw to see what sticks. I'm surprised lobs didn't go on the attack. They must be worse than I thought.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> If it's illegal it should be stated so. Otherwise it just looks like a sht throw to see what sticks. I'm surprised lobs didn't go on the attack. They must be worse than I thought.



The media wants Morrison out of politics, they had trouble dealing with him and it serves them better to have stumbling bumbling politicians who they can run circles around.
Name one politician who can run circles around the media, there isn't many who can tear them and their pre researched questions to shreds.
The media want to dictate the narrative and have the politicians follow it, it will be a mess when it gets to that, but it will happen IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The media wants Morrison out of politics, they had trouble dealing with him and it serves them better to have stumbling bumbling politicians who they can run circles around.
> Name one politician who can run circles around the media, there isn't many who can tear them and their pre researched questions to shreds.
> The media want to dictate the narrative and have the politicians follow it, it will be a mess when it gets to that, but it will happen IMO.



Morrison is pretty obviously a religious fruitcake with a Messiah complex. He's a loose cannon , and a bullshiter as well..


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Morrison is pretty obviously a religious fruitcake with a Messiah complex. He's a loose cannon , and a bullshiter as well..



Well I can't disagree with any of that.
Accurate on all counts IMO.
You can add to that an extremely good memory and a very sharp mind, but I think your points were his undoing, he will be out of politics soon IMO. 
Then Malcolm can have a good nights rest.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Morrison is pretty obviously a religious fruitcake with a Messiah complex. He's a loose cannon , and a bullshiter as well..



Vote out. Not witch-hunt. If he did something illegal then turf him.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Vote out. Not witch-hunt. If he did something illegal then turf him.



I think media witch hunt will win, the problem is Albo has to live with all these chestnuts they are throwing at Morrison, he is making a rod for his own back by climbing on the band wagon IMO.
He has a short memory, the Anthony Overseasy obviously didn't give him a clue as to how it works, when you're sitting in the 'big chair'.
IMO if Morrison had said I'm taking a role in these portfolios, then the media would have said he doesn't have confidence in the ministers, a no win situation.
Like I said I think he will walk, not much point hanging about, the hounding obviously wont stop.
With Frydenberg gone, it will leave the Libs thin on the ground for PR presence, a bit like the Libs in W.A.
Then it will be a case of waiting until Labor either stuff up, or the public get sick of them and flip them, whichever it is IMO it will be at least two terms.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Vote out. Not witch-hunt. If he did something illegal then turf him.



Yes I agree.

It all doesn't seem to matter very much now. If he was Oppostion leader it might be relevant but as a backbencher he has no power so he can't stuff much up.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> He used it. He overruled the Resources minister without needing to go to Cabinet just before he called the election.
> 
> Maybe you should read what happened before calling others muppets.
> 
> Maybe try The Australian  who were the ones that broke this or listen to Barnaby Joyce.



*Yes you are right, thanks for the heads up, it sounds as though Pitt was a muppet also*.​​Gas permit dithering ‘cost Libs four seats’​Former resources minister Keith Pitt has been blamed for losing a swath of Liberal seats after refusing to join the NSW government in blocking a controversial offshore gas project.



			https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fnation%2Fpolitics%2Fgas-permit-dithering-cost-liberals-four-seats%2Fnews-story%2Ff78472a29e40f4e95d39de898930a505&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-high-control-score&V21spcbehaviour=append


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes I agree.
> 
> It all doesn't seem to matter very much now. If he was Oppostion leader it might be relevant but as a backbencher he has no power so he can't stuff much up.



Yep, now you have to adjust to a new more benevolent Government at last.
Albanese was sworn in as Prime Minister on 23 May 2022,
This on the July 13, 2022 - what's that 6 weeks, lol, like I said I voted for Labor because $hit has to happen and Labor can get it through the media S bend.
This was stymied, but the intent is clear.
Do I think it is hard? Yes. 
Do I think it is required? Yes. 
Do I think the coalition could enact the required changes? No.
Can Labor? Yes.
They just rushed it a bit, 6 weeks is a bit rich, back it off boys.🤣
https://www.skynews.com.au/australi...s/news-story/0a35048f0d26d445af8d13290b12eae9


----------



## Eager (16 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think media witch hunt will win,



Oh, really?

This is all a media beat-up?

Your hero Morrison is innocent, he/you tells us?

Morrison is a grub and you're defending him. 

You don't deserve the privilege of being allowed to vote.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

Eager said:


> Oh, really?
> 
> This is all a media beat-up?
> 
> ...



Obviously you are front and centre in the pitchfork crew, what a hoot, what is he guilty of and when will charges be laid, if you want to be theatrical which is obviously your want.
The melodrama is fantastic, but as usual your substance is wanting.😂
I hope you washed off your tablet, after leaving the ablution block.

So now we have moved on from the formalities, why don't I deserve to be allowed to vote?
Or is it just a case of left wing innuendo bullying?
 WOW you nice guys wouldn't do that would you, like throw everyone in gaol that you don't like, or don't like their comments, or don't like the person in question?
Sounds like China to me.
I shouldn't be allowed to make comment, as to why a situation may occur, without being told i shouldn't be allowed to vote? mate get a grip, you're the one with the problem, not me.

This is to clarify the comment I made about your bullying, but being a dick wad, you probably wont understand it anyway.

An *innuendo* is a hint, insinuation or intimation about a person or thing, especially of a denigrating or a derogatory nature. It can also be a remark or question, typically disparaging (also called *insinuation*), that works obliquely by allusion. In the latter sense the intention is often to insult or accuse someone in such a way that one's words, taken literally, are innocent.[1][2]


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2022)

Eager said:


> Oh, really?
> 
> This is all a media beat-up?
> 
> ...











						Histrionic Personality Disorder
					

Read about histrionic personality disorder, including causes, symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## PZ99 (16 August 2022)

Histrionic Personality Disorder - merely one source of grief for those that fling around the TDS label


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> Histrionic Personality Disorder
> 
> 
> Read about histrionic personality disorder, including causes, symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment.
> ...



As though that person would read anything, that shattered his delusions of intelligent self stimulated thought, that would destroy the reasoning for subscribing to his positive reinforcement media.🤣
Let's be honest, I'm prepared to discuss an issue, @Eager comes in and makes off the cuff disparaging comments in the name of positive posting, that is absolute loony, aggressive posting with zero underlying information.
Let's hope the forum doesn't degenerate to this sort of stuff, or we may as well all move over to HC.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2022)

Eager said:


> Oh, really?
> 
> This is all a media beat-up?
> 
> ...



Is what he did illegal?
Politicians are all bloody grubs, get a grip.


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Is what he did illegal?
> Politicians are all bloody grubs, get a grip.



Yeh maybe @Eager didn't read where I posted up that both Liberal and Labor politicians were put in gaol for corruption.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WA_Inc
That is the exact post I posted, but obviously some people just can't get over their vindictiveness and that is the real issue, not the superficial I'm a nice person persona that they obviously try to project.
And anyone that doesn't agree with me and the media is wrong, I certainly hope Eager isn't a financial advisor, because muppet sees muppet believes, costs honest mums and dads lots of money.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Is what he did illegal?
> Politicians are all bloody grubs, get a grip.




Well, if all this was done because other Ministers may have come down with covid, what if he had got it ? He's not Superman , someone else would have had to do his job. Why wasn't Barnaby or Michael McCormack sworn in as  Prime Minister with all the other portfolios ?

It all just seems very strange.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, if all this was done because other Ministers may have come down with covid, what if he had got it ? He's not Superman , someone else would have had to do his job. Why wasn't Barnaby or Michael McCormack sworn in as  Prime Minister with all the other portfolios ?
> 
> It all just seems very strange.



Could anyone have fronted up to the media every day, the parliament every day and the combined Premier's meetings and pulled it off through the pandemic, the lockdowns, the chasing vaccines, chasing masks, chasing RATs,paying extra welfare, paying companies to keep people employed and answer every loonie media question, really?

Like I've said I'm no fan, but I've been involved in project management, no where in the realm of the pandemic, but the issues would have been off the scale for normal management practices.
Imagine the chaos if at every media session the PM said, well I don't know how much money is going to welfare, I haven't a clue what is happening with the vaccines, no I don't know where we are at with jobkeeper, look best you ask each of the responsible ministers, why ask me it's not my job.
Remember how that went in the adverts. Lol
Like I said people need to be careful they don't run out enough rope to hang themselves.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, if all this was done because other Ministers may have come down with covid, what if he had got it ? He's not Superman , someone else would have had to do his job. Why wasn't Barnaby or Michael McCormack sworn in as  Prime Minister with all the other portfolios ?
> 
> It all just seems very strange.



Well you nailed it, he isn't superman, but when he wasn't over an issue, he was criticized for saying 'its not my job, but when he takes it on board to make sure he is informed, he is copping all this crap.
Not a great place to be IMO.
Just a sad reflection of Australia losing it's decency, we are just becoming a society of people who want to improve our self esteem, by deriding others.
Shame we can't make a better society, by just improving our own personal outlooks and efforts, rather than just pulling down others.
I certainly hope he walks.
At the end of the day, we have come through a pretty traumatic three years in fairly good shape, time for him to go.
Let's be honest we could have had Kev, going on about Murdoch and wanting a seat on the CWA, or Malcolm wanting to re order the diesel subs, that even the greens and Labor don't want. Lol


----------



## PZ99 (17 August 2022)

I think I would have preferred Kev going on about Murdoch.

After all.... Murdoch were happy going on about Kev for the entire time he was in office 

Gotta admit this is kinda funny...








But... to be serious... I agree with some previous comments that Albo should get back to governing.
The ScoMo cat is out of the bag - let the opposition deal with it.

If Albo goes too far with it he risks looking like another Abbott


----------



## PZ99 (17 August 2022)

Ahh bugger it... just one more


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, if all this was done because other Ministers may have come down with covid, what if he had got it ? He's not Superman , someone else would have had to do his job. Why wasn't Barnaby or Michael McCormack sworn in as  Prime Minister with all the other portfolios ?
> 
> It all just seems very strange.



Deputy pm. 

They are trying to play it as a centralisation of power. 
Really Labor?
You just spent months in the states locking everyone down in unprecedented moves.
Liberals were absolutely authoritarian as well. That's a big reason they got booted. Labor should probably shut up and get on with it though


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Ahh bugger it... just one more




And still the laughs  keep coming.
Some people have too much time on their hands.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 August 2022)

And sometimes when pollies tweet things you don't realise at the time their true meaning.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2022)

Indicators of the demise of the Perrotet government keep popping up.
The latest is the  announcement  that Customer services, Small Business and Fair trading Minister  Victor Dominello will not be recontesting the next election and will retire at the end of the current  election cycle.
Thats the fourth  departure since  Gladys started the rot.
Watch for further rats  departing the badly listing HMNSWS Government.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Indicators of the demise of the Perrotet government keep popping up.
> The latest is the  announcement  that Customer services, Small Business and Fair trading Minister  Victor Dominello will not be recontesting the next election and will retire at the end of the current  election cycle.
> Thats the fourth  departure since  Gladys started the rot.
> Watch for further rats  departing the badly listing HMNSWS Government.
> Mick




I hope Labor have the goods to take over , considering their long time in Opposition.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope Labor have the goods to take over , considering their long time in Opposition.



I would not have much faith in any of them.
They are all Political operatives with zero  experience in the real world outside politics.

Mick


----------



## PZ99 (17 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope Labor have the goods to take over , considering their long time in Opposition.



Nah bugger Labor.. they'll probably parachute Keneally somewhere in that old rot as well.

I'm hoping for another teal style indy wipeout for both sides in NSW.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I would not have much faith in any of them.
> They are all Political operatives with zero  experience in the real world outside politics.
> 
> Mick



We *need* a new broom to sweep through Australian politics, much like what happened with the Menzian Liberal Party (you know, before the Liberal Party turned into the cesspit of morons and Manchurian candidates it currently is).

Unfortunately the whole political scene is far too infantile for that at the moment... A largely ignorant constituency and a complicit media.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> We *need* a new broom to sweep through Australian politics, much like what happened with the Menzian Liberal Party (you know, before the Liberal Party turned into the cesspit of morons and Manchurian candidates it currently is).
> 
> Unfortunately the whole political scene is far too infantile for that at the moment... A largely ignorant constituency and a complicit media.



Yeah, sure, a bunch of rich elitists who think th only policy worth having is to shut down al fossil fueled industries.
Should work like a dream.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yeah, sure, a bunch of rich elitists who think th only policy worth having is to shut down al fossil fueled industries.
> Should work like a dream.
> Mick



Oh God, not them!!!


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yeah, sure, a bunch of rich elitists who think th only policy worth having is to shut down al fossil fueled industries.
> Should work like a dream.
> Mick



That reply should have been to the  @PZ99 statement


> Nah bugger Labor.. they'll probably parachute Keneally somewhere in that old rot as well.
> 
> I'm hoping for another teal style indy wipeout for both sides in NSW.



Mick


----------



## PZ99 (17 August 2022)

They will either shut down or be shut down anyway Mick.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> They will either shut down or be shut down anyway Mick.



Quite correct, but what about all the other issues facing the citizens of OZ???
Fossil fuel industries had to be shut down because its a finite resource that gets consumed, and thus needed to be replaced with something else.
The climate wars are merely the vehicle to do the shutting down.
The real problem that has been poorly debated and understood is the what that replacement regime will be.
The teals were very vague on the solution apart from offering platitudes about renewals. 
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Quite correct, but what about all the other issues facing the citizens of OZ???
> Fossil fuel industries had to be shut down because its a finite resource that gets consumed, and thus needed to be replaced with something else.
> The climate wars are merely the vehicle to do the shutting down.
> The real problem that has been poorly debated and understood is the what that replacement regime will be.
> ...



The teals are all women. "This is what we want done, now you do it".


----------



## PZ99 (17 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Quite correct, but what about all the other issues facing the citizens of OZ???
> Fossil fuel industries had to be shut down because its a finite resource that gets consumed, and thus needed to be replaced with something else.
> The climate wars are merely the vehicle to do the shutting down.
> The real problem that has been poorly debated and understood is the what that replacement regime will be.
> ...



I have no idea what the replacement regime will be other than it will cost a truckload of money we don't have and probably never will. Whatever the new regime is going to be, it's not going to be coming from a failed political system where local members are tied to the ideology of perpetuating the old regime as you described in post #1598.

So it comes down to a choice of "Political operatives with zero experience in the real world outside politics" versus a bunch of rich elitists successful business people FROM the real world outside politics with zero political experience.

One thing I don't want is the same crooked people (who gave Keneally the top job over more talented people who gave up in disgust) to be put back into power and giving us nothing other than a massive increase in public debt.


----------



## orr (17 August 2022)

MPPT.... is the abbreviation of the tool used to most effiecently extract the most power from a Solar PV system.
Solar energy is the cheapest form of energy ever in human history.
The Suadi Oil minister, many years back now stated; 'the stone age didn't end beacuse because we ran out of rocks, the petroluem age won't end because  we've  run out of oil'

Luckly those with an understanding of Marxist dialectic understand capitalism, _we wrote it_, and how capital will be deployed. Those that don't are left with their hands in their pockets jiggling their 'rocks'  led by the nose by vested interests, aided amply by Corprate media disinformation, into cal-der-sacs. 

'Climate wars'  are not what will end the fossil fuel industry.
The Teal candidates who stood at the last election have a more than acute understanding of a lot of things. Capitalism being *only* one of them.

 to understand some comments just above insert two vowels to 'mppt'....   
I'd probably have to tell you which those are , hey mulligan.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2022)

orr said:


> MPPT.... is the abbreviation of the tool used to most effiecently extract the most power from a Solar PV system.
> Solar energy is the cheapest form of energy ever in human history.
> The Suadi Oil minister, many years back now stated; 'the stone age didn't end beacuse because we ran out of rocks, the petroluem age won't end because  we've  run out of oil'
> 
> ...



Another concise and very helpful post @orr 
I thank you for your contribution.
Mick


----------



## Eager (17 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Obviously you are front and centre in the pitchfork crew, what a hoot, what is he guilty of and when will charges be laid, if you want to be theatrical which is obviously your want.
> The melodrama is fantastic, but as usual your substance is wanting.😂
> I hope you washed off your tablet, after leaving the ablution block.
> 
> ...



None of the above.

Did you ever consider that I called your voting privilege into question based on your obvious (but oblivious to you) poor judgement of character?

In my humble opinion, if Morrison runs again in his seat of Cook, anyone who resides there and votes for him is certifiable. Anyone defending him by stating that he did nothing technically illegal just shows how morally bankrupt they are.

Morrison has proven to be so contemptuous that it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't even tell Jenny.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2022)

Eager said:


> None of the above.
> 
> Did you ever consider that I called your voting privilege into question based on your obvious (but oblivious to you) poor judgement of character?
> 
> ...



I find very few politicans are of good character and I was putting forward reasons as to why Morrison would need to have access to all the information from pertinent portfolios during the pandemic to be able to carry out the function of PM.
Why it was all kept secret I havent commented on, because I can think of no good reason for doing that.
You have put forward absolutely no reason why he shouldnt have been co minister of critical portfolios, all you have done is tell everyone you have a personal hatred of Morrison and that is carried over to anyone who you feel is in anyway supportive of anything he does.
That is a very obsessive and somewhat creepy character trait, but hey it takes all kinds.
Your above post does indicate you certainly have the ability to hate people, just because they dont share your dislike of Morrison.
I wonder who will be the next politician to be the recipient of your pent up hatred, Dutton I would guess.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Liberals were absolutely authoritarian as well. That's a big reason they got booted. Labor should probably shut up and get on with it though



Nothing I've come across suggests the Liberals were booted for being authoritarian in regard to Covid.

Rather, they were booted for failing to govern effectively on pretty much any issue and in some cases ministers displaying sheer incompetence in regard to their portfolios.

As a case in point:



> Europe’s experience has not been repeated in Australia.
> 
> As a result of industry and government working together, we have avoided the price increases seen abroad.
> 
> ...




That quote's from Angus Taylor on 22 March 2022.






						Australian Domestic Gas Outlook (ADGO) 2022 conference | Ministers for the Department of Industry, Science, Energy and Resources
					

Minister's Taylor keynote address at the Australian Domestic Gas Outlook (ADGO) 2022 conference




					www.minister.industry.gov.au
				




That's immediately prior to the biggest price shock for gas that Australia's ever seen and which was well known to be imminent by those on the inside. Heck even a random member of the public who just read the publicly available reports from the ACCC, AEMO, Esso and others would've known full well it was coming.

That's incompetence right there.

That's not in any way saying Labor are better, worse or anything else but the previous government simply wasn't competent to do the job and so were replaced. That's what happens in just about any workplace.


----------



## moXJO (18 August 2022)

Eager said:


> None of the above.
> 
> Did you ever consider that I called your voting privilege into question based on your obvious (but oblivious to you) poor judgement of character?
> 
> ...



Cry harder.
I could care less about someone so devoid of objectivity that they are in fact part of  what makes people today so toxic. Your attitude is the exact vomit that will build up the divide


----------



## moXJO (18 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Nothing I've come across suggests the Liberals were booted for being authoritarian in regard to Covid.



Covid was only part of it. Morrison was a control freak. The lunacy started spilling into other areas. Dutton seems like he'd be right at home in a police state, while trying to start a fight with the Chinese. Insane how they kept trying to belittle other countries on the world stage.

They current libs need to be scrapped because I'm not seeing a lot of the right kind of talent.


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Covid was only part of it. Morrison was a control freak. The lunacy started spilling into other areas. Dutton seems like he'd be right at home in a police state, while trying to start a fight with the Chinese. Insane how they kept trying to belittle other countries on the world stage.
> 
> They current libs need to be scrapped because I'm not seeing a lot of the right kind of talent.



IMO that is a problem with all Governments, when they have been in too long, the lack of talent becomes a bigger and bigger problem as time goes by, they run out of ideas complacency sets in and resentment between personalities comes to the fore.
The coalition should have been out in 2019, they became a one man band as happened in W.A under Barnett, as you say there is no depth of talent they will be in opposition for some time unless Labor stuff up.
Morrison definitely was a control freak, probably assisted by him having no confidence in those under him in the cabinet, how many times did they front the media? Hardly ever, there would be a reason for that IMO they couldn't be trusted not to stuff up.👍
Just my opinion, but I think if there was any talent under him, he would have been rolled same as Abbott and Turnbull, they were just happy pulling a salary and doing nothing useful.


----------



## Eager (18 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Cry harder.
> I could care less about someone so devoid of objectivity that they are in fact part of  what makes people today so toxic. Your attitude is the exact vomit that will build up the divide



You make me sound like Trump!


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> IMO that is a problem with all Governments, when they have been in too long, the lack of talent becomes a bigger and bigger problem as time goes by, they run out of ideas complacency sets in and resentment between personalities comes to the fore.
> The coalition should have been out in 2019, they became a one man band as happened in W.A under Barnett, as you say there is no depth of talent they will be in opposition for some time unless Labor stuff up.
> *Morrison definitely was a control freak, probably assisted by him having no confidence in those under him in the cabinet, how many times did they front the media? Hardly ever, there would be a reason for that IMO they couldn't be trusted not to stuff up.*👍
> Just my opinion, but I think if there was any talent under him, he would have been rolled same as Abbott and Turnbull, they were just happy pulling a salary and doing nothing useful.




On the subject of which, don't the media realise how stupid they look when they keep saying it was a secret, then publish that everyone and their dog knew about it.

It sounds as though with Pitts memory he wasn't competent to hold a portfolio IMO.🤣

It is looking like Morrison was in charge of a ship of fools.

Also Mr Pitt the ex resources minister is starting to show why he was overruled on the gas project, he obviously is as thick as two short planks.







'Extraordinary revelation': Pitt confirms former deputy PM McCormack knew about Morrison's actions​Labor minister Murray Watt adds his name to those calling for former prime minister Scott Morrison to resign as former resources minister Keith Pitt tells Q+A Michael McCormack knew what Scott Morrison had done in 2021.



www.abc.net.au
From the article:
Former resources minister Keith Pitt told Q+A that former deputy prime minister Michael McCormack knew then prime minister Scott Morrison had sworn himself into the resources portfolio at some point in 2021.

Under heavy questioning from Q+A host Stan Grant, Mr Pitt, the Member for Hinkler, attempted to deflect questions about Mr Morrison's actions, before he confirmed that Mr McCormack knew about the appointment in 2021.

"Somewhere in 2021," Mr Pitt said when asked when he knew of Mr Morrison's actions.

"I had a discussion with Michael McCormack as leader of the Nationals, as you would expect I would," Mr Pitt said.

*"I'm trying to get some clarity around this, because so much of the questioning has been around secrecy, you told Michael McCormack, 'Scott Morrison has sworn himself into my portfolio?'" Grant asked.

"If I recall correctly, I think Michael may well have been at one of those meetings," Mr Pitt affirmed.

Grant continued: "You told Michael McCormack, 'hey, Scott Morrison has now sworn himself in to my portfolio as effectively co-minister', you told Michael McCormack, the leader of your party, then-Deputy Prime Minister, that explicitly?"

"It may have occurred in a meeting that Michael was at with all of us, including the PM and his representatives, or it may have been a separate discussion. I'm working my way through what is a very complex diary," Mr Pitt responded.*

And on the ABC radio news this morning, they are still saying the secret swearing in, nothing like good old media narrative to keep the muppets juiced up*.🤣*
Maybe they should read their own articles?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> On the subject of which, don't the media realise how stupid they look when they keep saying it was a secret, then publish that everyone and their dog knew about it.
> 
> It sounds as though with Pitts memory he wasn't competent to hold a portfolio IMO.🤣
> 
> ...




The press are having a field day over this, running around like flapping chooks.

Never mind the housing crisis or energy prices, just concentrate on the scandals.

Fair enough that it should be reported, but it's old news now.


----------



## moXJO (19 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The press are having a field day over this, running around like flapping chooks.
> 
> Never mind the housing crisis or energy prices, just concentrate on the scandals.
> 
> Fair enough that it should be reported, but it's old news nonow.



It seems like a waste of energy because everyone hates scomo already. Talk about flogging a dead horse. 

I mean if we want to talk about suss situations, isn't  Alex Bukarica a talking point?


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The press are having a field day over this, running around like flapping chooks.
> 
> Never mind the housing crisis or energy prices, just concentrate on the scandals.
> 
> Fair enough that it should be reported, but it's old news now.



Yes, I ran it past the oracle (the missus) what she thought about the issue, she has to turn the radio off when the news interupts her ABC classic listening, she said " the reporters must be crazy, to think anyone in Australia would be stupid enough to believe that anything in the Government was a secret, politicians can't help but run off at the mouth, the media is stupid"
I said if you think people aren't stupid enough to believe what the media says, don't join an online forum.
I don't have to worry about that though, the only things she does online is sudoku, jigsaws, criptic crosswords and general knowledge quizzes.


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

A good article on immigration, which you don't normally get, @moXJO the guy is saying exactly what you are saying and what a lot of others think, but don't dare say it.


----------



## moXJO (19 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A good article on immigration, which you don't normally get, @moXJO the guy is saying exactly what you are saying and what a lot of others think, but don't dare say it.




Just posted in the other thread then saw this. I would have just posted this video, as I agree with everything he said.

But I'll add that politicians will need to change imo. I'm not sure people will continue to accept these wanks feeding off the taxpayer while dropping living standards.


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

By the way the guy being interviewed is this guy, Leigh Van Onselen, he doesn't appear to be politically motivated by either side, which is unusual, but does seem to articulate the silent majority which I feel I fall into.
But I could be wrong as being objecting rather subjective is difficult, as proven on the forum, over and over again IMO.

Leith van Onselen​Leith van Onselen writes as the Unconventional Economist. Leith has previously worked as an economist at the Australian Treasury, Victorian Treasury and Goldman Sachs. He has a strong background in economic policy and financial sector regulation. Leith holds a Bachelor of Commerce (Honours) degree from Melbourne University and a Graduate Diploma of Applied Finance and Investment from the Securities Institute of Australia (now FINSIA). He tweets at @leithvo.


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Just posted in the other thread then saw this. I would have just posted this video, as I agree with everything he said.
> 
> But I'll add that politicians will need to change imo. I'm not sure people will continue to accept these wanks feeding off the taxpayer while dropping living standards.



Way too much tribalism in Australia, the media has the muppets fighting each other, while the over class take their house.
But too many dumb ar$es ranting and raving and running around with pitchforks, chasing the media narrative, while they are being rogered and they don't even know it.
Danca Maria, that will keep their eyes off the ball, the media's answer to allowing the muppets to think about the real issues that WILL AFFECT THEM. The art of diversion.🤣








						Luigi the Incredible
					

Luigi the Incredible was a hapless stage magician played by Paul Hogan in The Paul Hogan Show. Luigi the Incredible would appear in sketches, lampooning the stage acts of proper magicians. Luigi, of course, was hopeless, and it was clear that the character realised this, but as with many of...




					hoges.fandom.com
				




Luigi the Incredible would appear in sketches, lampooning the stage acts of proper magicians. Luigi, of course, was hopeless, and it was clear that the character realised this, but as with many of Hogan's characters, half the joke was that they were trying to fumble their way through their situation.


----------



## sptrawler (20 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> But I'll add that politicians will need to change imo. I'm not sure people will continue to accept these wanks feeding off the taxpayer while dropping living standards.



I was just down the pub for happy hour, there seems to be a lot of underlying nervousness and discontent brewing IMO.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I was just down the pub for happy hour, there seems to be a lot of underlying nervousness and discontent brewing IMO.



Is the beer off?
mick


----------



## sptrawler (21 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Is the beer off?
> mick



No but it has gone up 50c a pint, the unwashed masses aren't happy. 😂


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I was just down the pub for happy hour, there seems to be a lot of underlying nervousness and discontent brewing IMO.



Are you able to elaborate? 

Nervousness and discontent about what?

Comment's gone straight over my head sorry.


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Are you able to elaborate?
> 
> Nervousness and discontent about what?
> 
> Comment's gone straight over my head sorry.



Cost of living and the talk of re starting immigration when the rental market is so tight, quite a few are renting houses. One of the guys was saying, his rental has been sold and he has been looking for a new one, there are lines of people waiting for the viewing time to start. That is a new phenomena in W.A, especially away from Perth, it did happen in Perth in the late 1980's from memory but usually it is a struggle to find tenants due to the introduction of interstate FIFO.


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2022)

Oh well as I said when the Wellcamp quarantine facility was announced, it will end up a FIFO camp for overseas labour, it sounds as though they all might.  😂


			https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/taxpayers-to-fork-out-13m-for-empty-quarantine-facility-in-western-australia/news-story/5ee59b87e85c62ebb55496afeaa9ff83
		

_Taxpayers will fork out $13m to maintain the federal government’s quarantine facility in Western Australia even though the building may remain empty for years.
The eye-watering sum will be spent on buying and installing furniture, facility management, security and maintenance.

Serco has been contracted to complete the work on the 500-bed facility.

“While construction is expected to be completed soon, the handover to the state is planned to occur in October.”

As previously flagged, there are several options being explored for the facility.

That includes short-term accommodation for international and interstate skilled labour, beds for people at risk of homelessness and emergency accommodation for natural disaster relief._

Meanwhile long term unemployment in Australia is falling to its lowest level in years, we can't have that can we, the plebs lives changing that isn't how it's meant to work.  








						Long-term unemployment is falling rapidly, and it's changing lives
					

As the labour market gets tighter, long-term unemployment is declining quickly, writes Gareth Hutchens




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (22 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Indicators of the demise of the Perrotet government keep popping up.
> The latest is the  announcement  that Customer services, Small Business and Fair trading Minister  Victor Dominello will not be recontesting the next election and will retire at the end of the current  election cycle.
> Thats the fourth  departure since  Gladys started the rot.
> Watch for further rats  departing the badly listing HMNSWS Government.
> Mick



And right on cue, another another rat jumps ship.
From The Evil Murdoch empire


> NSW North Coast MP *Chris Gulaptis* has announced he is retiring from politics and will not contest the 2023 state election.
> 
> Mr Gulaptis said it had been a "very difficult" decision to retire after serving his Clarence electorate for 11 years, but said he was "very optimistic" of the future of NSW under a Liberal/National government.
> 
> The NSW Nationals have lost three state seats on the North Coast since 2019. Mr Gulaptis holds the seat on a solid margin of 14.5 per cent.



Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (22 August 2022)

had lunch and front page of the Australian is a demand to increase immigration greatly saying we are behind by 500,000 due to the pandemic.

i was going to copy from website but there is nothing there. Interesting.


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> had lunch and front page of the Australian is a demand to increase immigration greatly saying we are behind by 500,000 due to the pandemic.
> 
> i was going to copy from website but there is nothing there. Interesting.



Yes, nothing about it in the SMH, they are still chasing after Morrison. 😂


----------



## PZ99 (22 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> had lunch and front page of the Australian is a demand to increase immigration greatly saying we are behind by 500,000 due to the pandemic.
> 
> i was going to copy from website but there is nothing there. Interesting.



It was probably this one but I can't read it as a non subscriber 



			https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fnation%2Flet-foreign-workforce-in-anthony-albanese-told%2Fnews-story%2F79b585f08b6a12525e93cf6b5774cd2f&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-groupa-test-noscore&V21spcbehaviour=append


----------



## Knobby22 (22 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, nothing about it in the SMH, they are still chasing after Morrison. 😂



Not surprising, Raising immigration rates to 500,000 people is a right wing agenda item. Its not actually news.
Front page in the Age is the class action against Lanzer, cosmetic cowboys that have disfigured hundreds.

There is a mention of Morrison in a minor headline, Libs skewed industry grants to key seats and Morrison controlled this taking the decisions  away from the industry minister.


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Not surprising, Raising immigration rates to 500,000 people is a right wing agenda item. Its not actually news.



Well that's good, it wont happen then, because we don't have a right wing Government.


----------



## PZ99 (24 August 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Nah bugger Labor.. they'll probably parachute Keneally somewhere in that old rot as well.
> 
> I'm hoping for another teal style indy wipeout for both sides in NSW.



Here ya go people... just when the dust had settled they recharge the far cup.









						Fight over CFMEU’s ability to preselect candidates threatens to split NSW Labor left
					

Attempt to stop union from voting has prompted the soft left to threaten to divide the faction




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mullokintyre (25 August 2022)

A Royal Commission to be established into the unlawful Robodebt  scheme by the Albo govt..
Payback for the  coalition RC into the  K Rudd inspired Pink Bats fiasco.
Ah politics, don't ya just luv them?
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> A Royal Commission to be established into the unlawful Robodebt  scheme by the Albo govt..
> Payback for the  coalition RC into the  K Rudd inspired Pink Bats fiasco.
> Ah politics, don't ya just luv them?
> Mick



Sod all came out of the Pink Batts commission,  I expect no less from this one.


----------



## orr (25 August 2022)

ROBO debt ....
A spoon full of faeces is an amost inexhaustable resource to spread around; morrison was and is a dumpster full of it.

Considering the illegality an scale of ROBO death debacle there maybe a tad more consequence than the batt experience.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2022)

orr said:


> ROBO debt ....
> A spoon full of faeces is an amost inexhaustable resource to spread around; morrison was and is a dumpster full of it.
> 
> Considering the illegality an scale of ROBO death debacle there maybe a tad more consequence than the batt experience.



BATTS was a good idea poorly executed, Robodebt was vacuous faith in an algorithm and just shows what the world is heading for if we are run by machines.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 August 2022)

orr said:


> ROBO debt ....
> A spoon full of faeces is an amost inexhaustable resource to spread around; morrison was and is a dumpster full of it.
> 
> Considering the illegality an scale of ROBO death debacle there maybe a tad more consequence than the batt experience.




Its all political theatre, nothing more nothing less.
According to the   SBS news, it will cost 30 million.
And what will come of it?
No one will get fired,  the politicians have already been turfed, and the lawyers will make a motza.
It would make infinitely more sense to spread the 30 million over all the people who got screwed by robodebt.
But its the look that is most important.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> A Royal Commission to be established into the unlawful Robodebt scheme by the Albo govt..
> Payback for the coalition RC into the K Rudd inspired Pink Bats fiasco.



In considering someone's failure, intent is important.

Accidentally tripping someone up is very different to deliberately doing so. The outcome is the same but the context is vastly different.

The ceiling insulation scheme was a reasonable idea with botched implementation.

Robodebt was a purely evil idea with botched implementation.

I'll forgive Rudd far more easily than I'll forgive Morrison for that reason. Rudd might've failed badly but at least the original aim had some merit which is more than can be said for the Coalition's ideological war on the unemployed.


----------



## IFocus (26 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Its all political theatre, nothing more nothing less.
> According to the   SBS news, it will cost 30 million.
> And what will come of it?
> No one will get fired,  the politicians have already been turfed, and the lawyers will make a motza.
> ...





Yes there is political theatre but if you illegally take money off people causing death you will face consequences, the politicians and public servants who have done this are still serving with no accountability or consequences other than tax payers stumping up legally settlement costs.  

If only it humiliates the perpetrators that will be worth it, a pox on their houses.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Yes there is political theatre but if you illegally take money off people causing death you will face consequences, the politicians and public servants who have done this are still serving with no accountability or consequences other than tax payers stumping up legally settlement costs.
> 
> If only it humiliates the perpetrators that will be worth it, a pox on their houses.




I may be wrong but I have a feeling that politicians have indemnity against being charged with offences carried out in the course of their duties.

But maybe such things could go to a privileges committee who could stop the superannuation payments for the politicians responsible.

But you couldn't see that happening, the precedent set could be used against any pollies in the future. They wouldn't want that.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 August 2022)

IFocus said:


> Yes there is political theatre but if you illegally take money off people causing death you will face consequences, the politicians and public servants who have done this are still serving with no accountability or consequences other than tax payers stumping up legally settlement costs.
> 
> If only it humiliates the perpetrators that will be worth it, a pox on their houses.



Unfortunately, that last sentence  of yours reinforces exactly what I said.
The  alleged perpetrators  could all be charged for crimes without  an RC.
If blame for deaths can be attributed, let the police and DPP investigate, and if warranted, charge  and prosecute.
Any  one who is forced/coerced into appearing at an RC   and gives evidence, will most likely have that evidence disallowed in a court of law should they eventually be charged.
It will also delay charges for years.
its not about justice, reparation etc, those outcomes will be incidental.
Its  pure political  theatre.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2022)

At last the impasses are being broken and issues are getting resolved. Projects constantly being held up at the proposal stage, isn't good for the long term development of Australia.
Problems have to be resolved, putting everything on the backburner, just encourages investment elsewhere IMO









						Plibersek backs $4.5 billion WA gas plant despite sacred sites impact
					

Perth-based Perdaman plans to build a fertiliser plant on the Burrup Peninsula in an area that is covered by up to two million ancient Indigenous rock engravings and nominated for World Heritage listing.




					www.watoday.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (26 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> At last the impasses are being broken and issues are getting resolved. Projects constantly being held up at the proposal stage, isn't good for the long term development of Australia.
> Problems have to be resolved, putting everything on the backburner, just encourages investment elsewhere IMO
> 
> 
> ...




I wonder what the reaction would be if indigenous grants were cut whenever the indigenous community  opposed projects that helps to pay for those grants ?


----------



## mullokintyre (26 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder what the reaction would be if indigenous grants were cut whenever the indigenous community  opposed projects that helps to pay for those grants ?



Very  non conformist.
Ya going straight to hell, Horace,  to be deceived for eternity!
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder what the reaction would be if indigenous grants were cut whenever the indigenous community  opposed projects that helps to pay for those grants ?



Mate, you need to cut that $hit right out, you aren't allowed to say anything negative against any minority group, whether it is right or wrong, it is an absolute no go.
Stick to taking the piss out of workers, who left school at 15 and worked for 50 years to own a home and pay for their parents pensions, they are fair game.
They were lucky.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 August 2022)

Greens want pay rises for women and minimum wage earners in exchange for supporting jobs summit outcomes​








						Greens want pay rises for women and minimum wage earners in exchange for supporting jobs summit outcomes
					

The Greens declare they will push for additional pay rises for workers on the minimum wage and those in women-dominated industries in exchange for supporting any legislative proposals stemming from the government's jobs summit.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2022)

If they think inflation is bad now wait and watch if all these pay rises go through, very 1970's style. 
The BLF go out for everyone to get a pay rise, that method lifts wages and prices.
Bring back some real mortgage pain, that will prick the Sydney/Melbourne property prices and as long as they put a moratorium on rents it should sort the property market right out.









						Labor government may remove ‘red tape’ in collective bargaining rules in bid to lift wages
					

‘We particularly want to make sure the bargaining system works for small business and for women’, says Burke




					www.theguardian.com
				



Workplace relations minister, Tony Burke, has hinted Labor may remove “red tape” that discourages multi-employer collective bargaining as part of industrial relations reforms designed to lift wages.

On Monday, Burke all but confirmed the Albanese government will drastically restrict employers’ ability to terminate pay deals early in a speech to the Australian Industry Group.


The comments about red tape suggest that although Labor has not agreed to union demands for industry-level bargaining, it may look to encourage broader collective bargaining beyond separate pay deals for each employer, as the rules generally require.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If they think inflation is bad now wait and watch if all these pay rises go through, very 1970's style.




Well , pay rises should be a normal effect of low unemployment.

If Labor bring in more migrant workers then pay rises will be shot dead as employers say "yuk yuk no need to give pay rises we have the workers we need".

Is Labor going to shoot itself in the foot again ?


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well , pay rises should be a normal effect of low unemployment.
> 
> If Labor bring in more migrant workers then pay rises will be shot dead as employers say "yuk yuk no need to give pay rises we have the workers we need".
> 
> Is Labor going to shoot itself in the foot again ?



I certainly hope not because we do need a lot of reforms at the worker level, but keeping a leash on it all is the problem, if it all starts snowballing it ends up a world of pain for the general public and those who can least afford it.
It is good to give across the board pay rises, but it ends up being a sugar hit and eventually wears off, as the extra wages feed into extra costs.
They would have a lot of data, so hopefully treasuries super computer can do the modelling and it all works out well. 








						Opposition claims tradies in the firing line from gig economy reform
					

Sources in a confidential meeting between government and industry said legislation to overhaul the sector would be brought before parliament next year.




					www.theage.com.au
				



Multiple sources familiar with confidential talks government officials held with major gig economy companies on Friday said it will hold detailed consultations this year ahead of introducing legislation to parliament in 2023. The new laws are intended to ensure that people who work for platforms such as Uber are not left without key employment rights just because they are classified as contractors.
Fresh Treasury analysis shows the stakes of the broader debate, as the services sector, which includes the gig economy, now provides 80 per cent of jobs in Australia. By contrast, the lucrative mining sector provides far fewer positions.

Workplace Relations Minister Tony Burke's department began talks on Friday with the major players in the gig economy, including transport providers Uber, Menulog, Deliveroo and DoorDash as well as services marketplace Airtasker and care platforms Mable and HireUp, which employs staff.
The talks will feed into the government's plan to give the Fair Work Commission power to award more rights to gig workers, who lack an entitlement to unfair dismissal protections, workers' compensation, superannuation from their employer, or a minimum wage.

In a speech to transport union delegates on Friday in Sydney, Burke said the new system would operate like a “ramp” in which those closer to employees would get more of the rights that employees enjoy. And he hinted a minimum wage could be among them.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I certainly hope not because we do need a lot of reforms at the worker level, but keeping a leash on it all is the problem, if it all starts snowballing it ends up a world of pain for the general public and those who can least afford it.
> It is good to give across the board pay rises, but it ends up being a sugar hit and eventually wears off, as the extra wages feed into extra costs.
> They would have a lot of data, so hopefully treasuries super computer can do the modelling and it all works out well.




Employers are always saying "give us productivity increases and we will give yo pay rises".

The graph below shows that while productivity has been growing, real wages haven't, so maybe the employers owe the workers some back pay.











__





						The real wages vs productivity gap - AICD
					

Real wages haven't been keeping pace with productivity for a while, which has put a constraint on overall sustainable economic growth.




					www.aicd.com.au
				








__





						The real wages vs productivity gap - AICD
					

Real wages haven't been keeping pace with productivity for a while, which has put a constraint on overall sustainable economic growth.




					www.aicd.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2022)

Absolutely, but the problem is who pays for it, the company or the public? If the company reduces its profit without losing its output, that's great. As long as they don't have to lay off workers.
If the company increases the cost of its product and doesn't lose its sales, or its profit, then the public is paying for it.
The money comes from somewhere.
The other thing is, productivity as such isn't just people working harder, it can also be that less people are required for the same output due to automation.
As wages increase it makes automation more and more attractive, like I said it isn't easy and finding a balance that doesn't send the economy off the rails will be difficult.
I know tradies in W.A are doing fine with wages, affording to pay for them is the issue here, especially for the poor.


----------



## PZ99 (27 August 2022)

Bah... just give those workers back their Sunday penalty rates. 

No need to reinvent the wheel.


----------



## Eager (28 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Mate, you need to cut that $hit right out, you aren't allowed to say anything negative against any minority group, whether it is right or wrong, it is an absolute no go.
> Stick to taking the piss out of workers, who left school at 15 and worked for 50 years to own a home and pay for their parents pensions, they are fair game.
> They were lucky.



I totally agree with you! It is not fair that minority groups as landlords, individual shareholders, SMSF holders or pompous old Boomers - the scourge of society - are allowed to run rampant without scrutiny! I KNEW you would see things my way eventually! 

On the other hand, your Working Class Hero crap is exactly that.


----------



## wayneL (28 August 2022)

And that Ladies and Gentlemen, is what you call a false equivalence fallacy... LMAO


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2022)

Eager said:


> I totally agree with you! It is not fair that minority groups as landlords, individual shareholders, SMSF holders or pompous old Boomers - the scourge of society - are allowed to run rampant without scrutiny! I KNEW you would see things my way eventually!
> 
> On the other hand, your Working Class Hero crap is exactly that.



Obviously no mirrors in your place.🤣


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2022)

At last the Greens come up with a great idea, that is achievable and sensible IMO.









						Greens want independent funding for $100 million anti-corruption commission
					

The Greens and a key crossbencher want the new anti-corruption body to have funding set independently of the government of the day to protect the agency.




					www.smh.com.au
				



The Greens and a key crossbencher want the proposed national anti-corruption commission to be independently funded and overseen by a parliamentary committee that operates at arm’s length from the federal government.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2022)

A good article on a lot of the issues that politicians have to deal with, surrounding disenfranchised sectors of the community. IMO it does highlight the problem that Sydney/ Melbourne house prices have caused, as so many of the population live there and have a disproportionate influence on the statistics.









						How well off you are depends on who you are. Comparing the lives of Australia's Millennials, Gen-Xers and Baby Boomers
					

On many dimensions, Millennials aged 25-35 are better off than were Boomers, with housing and the environment the big exceptions.




					theconversation.com


----------



## Eager (29 August 2022)

wayneL said:


> And that Ladies and Gentlemen, is what you call a false equivalence fallacy... LMAO



It was actually theatre.

Love and kisses,

Bruce.


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2022)

Eager said:


> It was actually theatre.
> 
> Love and kisses,
> 
> Bruce.



Righteo I'll believe you  , but I'm invoking social distancing if you don't mind.


----------



## wayneL (30 August 2022)

And just for a bit of levity


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2022)

And we argue about the media's affect on public perceptions and I'm constantly criticised for highlighting it.

Nine admits its MP upskirt story untrue​_Nine has admitted the central claim of a television news report about a federal MP is untrue, leaving the media company potentially liable for a massive damages payou_t.


Maybe we could save a huge amount of money, just asking the media who they want to win an election, it would save a lot of angst.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> And we argue about the media's affect on public perceptions and I'm constantly criticised for highlighting it.
> 
> Nine admits its MP upskirt story untrue​_Nine has admitted the central claim of a television news report about a federal MP is untrue, leaving the media company potentially liable for a massive damages payou_t.
> 
> ...




Now let me guess, would that be a Labor MP by any chance ?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Now let me guess, would that be a Labor MP by any chance ?



Oops, guessed wrong. Sorry Andrew.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2022)

I think old Malcolm is finding out that people inherently don't respect turncoats and those who sell out their own, irrespective of their personal beliefs they don't like those without loyalty. He is becoming the 'ghost' that he bagged others for being, time he disappeared to his harbourside mansion IMO.









						Turnbull slams ‘fascism’ after protesters shout him out of university speech
					

The former prime minister was escorted to his car by police following a protest at Sydney University, where he was due to talk to law students.




					www.smh.com.au
				



Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has decried “fascism” and challenged Sydney’s oldest university to protect free speech on campus after he was yelled and sworn at by student protesters during a function and escorted out by police.
Turnbull left the Sydney University Law Society event on Thursday without speaking, following the boycott by members of the Student Representative Council and student body, who called him “ruling class scum” who “wouldn’t listen to anyone below” him.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think old Malcolm is finding out that people inherently don't respect turncoats and those who sell out their own, irrespective of their personal beliefs they don't like those without loyalty. He is becoming the 'ghost' that he bagged others for being, time he disappeared to his harbourside mansion IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They sounds more like Trotskyites rather than disaffected "ruling class scum" .


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> They sounds more like Trotskyites rather than disaffected "ruling class scum" .



Hopefully one of the media outlets does a popularity poll on Turnbull and Rudd, that might get them to just move on, it is a bit like listening to ex athletes commentating on current athletes and explaining how great they were in their day.
Not a good look.


----------



## PZ99 (2 September 2022)

He was PM of a Govt that wanted to deregulate uni fees - that was the crux of the attacks.
Nothing to do with loyalty or turncoats or whatever he said or did after leaving politics.

So I've gotta say that was a poor assessment of events and a good example of how media like to distort facts to suit their "adumdum"....

It's dishonest in the first instance and an abrogation of duty in the second


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2022)

PZ99 said:


> He was PM of a Govt that wanted to deregulate uni fees - that was the crux of the attacks.
> Nothing to do with loyalty or turncoats or whatever he said or did after leaving politics.
> 
> So I've gotta say that was a poor assessment of events and a good example of how media like to distort facts to suit their "adumdum"....
> ...




Yeah, but the principle that people shouldn't be "shouted out" of speaking still remains.

The Coalition did some bad things to education. Christopher Pyne boasted about taking $27 billion out of universities.

But if some people want to listen to Turnbull, they should be able to without being subjected to this sort of intimidation.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah, but the principle that people shouldn't be "shouted out" of speaking still remains.
> 
> The Coalition did some bad things to education. Christopher Pyne boasted about taking $27 billion out of universities.
> 
> But if some people want to listen to Turnbull, they should be able to without being subjected to this sort of intimidation.



Absolutely, if some people wants to listen to anyone they should be allowed to without the heckling, in the case of high profile presenters one would think it would be a pay to go event, then they may not have had the hecklers.
If the university wanted to use the students fees, to present Turnbull, the students have a right to heckle. IMO
As for Pyne taking $27 billion out of universities, if there wasn't so many kids going to university that haven't the ability, the sausage machine wouldn't need the funding.
As I said if people wanted to listen to Turnbull or anyone else, it should be a pay to view event, but I bet the university used their funding to pay for Turnbull to dribble on.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, if some people wants to listen to anyone they should be allowed to, in the case of high profile presenters one would think it would be a pay to go event, Then they may not have had the hecklers.
> If the university wanted to use the students fees, to present Turnbull, the students have a right to heckle. IMO




Who knows how he was financed ? If it was student fees then maybe some of the students wanted to listen to him. As I said before it sounds like the hecklers were a far Left faction, not many these days are that extreme. 

If Dutton went and was shouted down, there would be a bigger outcry I reckon.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Who knows how he was financed ? If it was student fees then maybe some of the students wanted to listen to him. As I said before it sounds like the hecklers were a far Left faction, not many these days are that extreme.
> 
> If Dutton went and was shouted down, there would be a bigger outcry I reckon.



Appologies for the adding bits of text, but the connection keeps dropping out.
I just think as with most things if people want to see it or hear it, it should be a pay event, then only those who are truly interested will go and even the hecklers have to be invested enough to spend the money.
That is what I find annoying about a lot of demonstrators, they demonstrate during working hours for effect, if they are on welfare there should be some penalty because they are disrupting the people, who are going to work, to pay for the demonstrators welfare payment. Way too many people ATM with the "what about me attitude".
Thankfully Labor will sort it out.
As for a far left faction it may, or may not have been, it could just have been a group of students that didn't like Turnbull's behaviour after being ousted as leader of the Libs, who know it may have been the young Lib's that were heckling?


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Appologies for the adding bits of text, but the connection keeps dropping out.
> I just think as with most things if people want to see it or hear it, it should be a pay event, then only those who are truly interested will go and even the hecklers have to be invested enough to spend the money.
> That is what I find annoying about a lot of demonstrators, they demonstrate during working hours for effect, if they are on welfare there should be some penalty because they are disrupting the people, who are going to work, to pay for the demonstrators welfare payment. Way too many people ATM with the "what about me attitude".
> Thankfully Labor will sort it out.




Even with a paid event, hecklers will find a way to get in and disrupt proceedings.

The only way to stop this sort of thing imo is to cancel the courses of those involved.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Even with a paid event, hecklers will find a way to get in and disrupt proceedings.
> 
> The only way to stop this sort of thing imo is to cancel the courses of those involved.



I agree if it was a paid event, because the people that have paid have a right to get what they paid for, as in a sporting event anyone that goes there with the purpose of disrupting is treated very harshly, as they should.
Like I said I certainly would like to know who funded Turnbull to give the address, before I make a decision as to the rights or wrongs of the hecklers.


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> ...it could just have been a group of students that didn't like Turnbull's behaviour after being ousted as leader of the Libs, who know it may have been the young Lib's that were heckling?




That would be more understandable, but still not kosher.

Let the man speak and put beyond all reasonable doubt what an absolute tosser he is.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2022)

Ive been at union meetings, where the organisers were often shouted down and told to fff off and we paid them. Lol


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Ive been at union meetings, where the organisers were often shouted down and told to fff off and we paid them. Lol



A long time ago, in my mercurial "youf", I was an eyelash away from snotting the Chairman of the federal committee of the Equestrian Federation of Australia (who was also CEO of a Perth brewery which made particularly egregious facsimiles of what they erroneously termed as "lager".

It was only the swift action of my best mate, a corporate lawyer and fellow scallywag (and privy to my predilection for clobbering such villains), that preempted what was about to happen and intercepted it.

Long story short, the pen is mightier than the sword.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> A long time ago, in my mercurial "youf", I was an eyelash away from snotting the Chairman of the federal committee of the Equestrian Federation of Australia (who was also CEO of a Perth brewery which made particularly egregious facsimiles of what they erroneously termed as "lager".
> 
> It was only the swift action of my best mate, a corporate lawyer and fellow scallywag (and privy to my predilection for clobbering such villains), that preempted what was about to happen and intercepted it.
> 
> Long story short, the pen is mightier than the sword.



Absolutely, I have been involved in EBA discussion where we told the State organiser to not bother coming anymore, because we were sick of him arguing for the employers side.
It was hard enough breaking them, without having our paid rep backing them.🤣
Finally won and got a 32hr week and a pay rise, that was about 25 years ago, mid 1990's.😘


----------



## sptrawler (16 September 2022)

At last some home truths, the magic roundabout has to come to an end and soon. 
For years it has been about robbing Peter to pay Paul, it looks as though covid has brought it all to a head, real structural tax reform is required.
The can kicking might actually have to stop.









						Politicians go Lowe - he goes high
					

For months, RBA governor Philip Lowe has copped criticism for interest rate changes. On Friday, he pointed to the problems left by the nation’s politicians.




					www.theage.com.au
				



On Friday, the RBA governor returned fire with some very pointed kicks to the shins of the political class.

Facing the latest House of Representatives economics committee, where there were plenty of criticisms dressed up as questions, Lowe took the opportunity to wade into the very non-RBA world of fiscal policy.

Declaring the state of the budget a “significant issue”, he said the community – rightly – wanted high-quality services and infrastructure. The problem was that governments had been unwilling to confront the ways to pay for them.

Lowe pointed out that governments would soon have to either increase taxes, cut services or undertake some serious structural reform so the economy was larger and generated more revenue.

“Each of those are very difficult. Taxes, cutting back and structural reform. We have to do one of those three things, maybe all three of them,” he said.

You could hear the collective gulp from those assembled or listening in their parliamentary offices. Here was the RBA boss offering some sharp opinions about the fiscal elephant in the room.

But he didn’t just stop with a diagnosis. Lowe offered a timeline on when to start dealing with the issues facing the country.
“I would hope during this term of parliament that you could start addressing probably each of those three things to pay for the services that our community want,” he said.

And before MPs could move on to more RBA whacking, Lowe (thanks to a question from teal independent Allegra Spender) offered suggestions on what needed to be tackled.
The Productivity Commission’s _Shifting the Dial_ report provided a welter of options, most of which have yet to be acted upon.

The tax system, from how it affected land use to consumption to savings, was crying out for change.
“Anyone who looks at [it] doesn’t say that’s the optimal system. In fact, they say we’re a long way from optimal on most of those areas,” he offered.

*How we chose and funded our infrastructure, the way we trained workers, our education system, the blizzard of regulatory red tape. All needed reform.*

In his central banker way, Lowe noted problems in the regulation of the energy system. “[We] probably haven’t nailed that,” he said deadpan.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> At last some home truths, the magic roundabout has to come to an end and soon.
> For years it has been about robbing Peter to pay Paul, it looks as though covid has brought it all to a head, real structural tax reform is required.
> The can kicking might actually have to stop.
> 
> ...



Well, he finally got something right!
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (17 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> At last some home truths, the magic roundabout has to come to an end and soon.
> For years it has been about robbing Peter to pay Paul, it looks as though covid has brought it all to a head, real structural tax reform is required.
> The can kicking might actually have to stop.
> 
> ...



We will see what the budget brings but he can't tax people already doing it tough.

So who is doing well ? Resources maybe ?


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, he finally got something right!
> Mick



He isn't Robinson Crusoe.
If you lined up everyone who gets things wrong in Australian politics and the media, the length of line would put the Queens queue to shame.
At least up until now, he has only made the one stuff up, those throwing the bricks, have taken all the windows out of the green house.  🤣


----------



## mullokintyre (17 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> He isn't Robinson Crusoe.
> If you lined up everyone who gets things wrong in Australian politics and the media, the length of line would put the Queens queue to shame.
> At least up until now, he has only made the one stuff up, those throwing the bricks, have taken all the windows out of the green house.  🤣



As I suggested, unless he departs early, he will have another one wrong  by next year with his call to have inflation back to 3%.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As I suggested, unless he departs early, he will have another one wrong  by next year with his call to have inflation back to 3%.
> Mick



And if he gets it right?


----------



## mullokintyre (19 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> And if he gets it right?



It means I will be completely wrong.
mick


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2022)

At last @SirRumpole , they may be seeing the light, the first glimmer of back to the future. 
What is the definition of stupidity? continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome, hopefully this is the start of a trend to rewind the privatisation of public services.
They aren't there to make a profit, from the people who are public, they are thereto provide a required service to the public at as low a cost as possible.
How giving it to a private company, who have to make a profit, would make it cheaper beggars belief.
Time to admit some of these ideologically driven ideas have failed and rewind the problem.
There is nothing wrong with trying it, but when it is an obvious failure, it is the politicians responsibility to return to public ownership. That goes for a lot of services.








						‘Abject failure’: Parliament committee wants to roll back Sydney bus privatisation
					

Labor member for Coogee Marjorie O’Neill is open to putting the bus networks in public hands again. But Coalition MPs warn such a move could create a “significant risk”.




					www.smh.com.au
				



The NSW government should consider returning privately operated bus networks into public hands, according to a new parliamentary report, linking the privatisation of public transport with a stark decline in service quality and higher costs for commuters.
The NSW Legislative Council report, released on Tuesday, found privatisation of Sydney’s bus network had incentivised cost-cutting, which unfairly impacted vulnerable people.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> At last @SirRumpole , they may be seeing the light, the first glimmer of back to the future.
> What is the definition of stupidity? continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome, hopefully this is the start of a trend to rewind the privatisation of public services.
> They aren't there to make a profit, from the people who are public, they are thereto provide a required service to the public at as low a cost as possible.
> How giving it to a private company, who have to make a profit, would make it cheaper beggars belief.
> ...




Might they start thinking the same about the power industry ? We can only hope.

I'm surprised that Perrotet hasn't tried privatising the railways, but it's only because no sane business people would buy it, given the grip of the unions on that industry.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 September 2022)

In another example of rats deserting the sinking ship, a fourth ( or is it fifth?)  NSW state minister, Rob Stokes, has announced his retirement.
Labour now a shoe in at state level NSW.
Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (30 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In another example of rats deserting the sinking ship, a fourth ( or is it fifth?)  NSW state minister, Rob Stokes, has announced his retirement.
> Labour now a shoe in at state level NSW.
> Mick



I thought the LIbs would have a fighting chance. Hmmm.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I thought the LIbs would have a fighting chance. Hmmm.



I think the Libs do have a fighting chance.

I live in NSW and the Opposition gets hardly any air time and are pretty invisible.

However, maybe the Libs are too old and tired now and the electorate may vote for change without knowing what that is.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the Libs do have a fighting chance.
> 
> I live in NSW and the Opposition gets hardly any air time and are pretty invisible.
> 
> However, maybe the Libs are too old and tired now and the electorate may vote for change without knowing what that is.



Every Government has a use by date.
The Feds coalition under Scomo reached theirs.
Sometimes the replacement only lasts a year (STh Aust , QLD under Newman, Victoria under Bailieu).
I think NSW has reached theirs).
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Every Government has a use by date.
> The Feds coalition under Scomo reached theirs.
> Sometimes the replacement only lasts a year (STh Aust , QLD under Newman, Victoria under Bailieu).
> I think NSW has reached theirs).
> Mick




I agree and it may be the same in Vic.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 September 2022)

Interesting that the QLD Premier has thrown her treasurer, the unfortunately named Cameron Dick, under the proverbial bus.
From ABC News


> The Queensland government has shelved changes to land tax after the premier met with interstate leaders — but Treasurer Cameron Dick has continued to defend the policy.
> 
> Key points:​
> Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk denied the move was a backdown on her government's land tax policy
> ...





> Mr Dick has stood firm on his support for the policy after weeks of campaigning.
> 
> He said data needed for the policy could have been obtained through the titles office.
> 
> ...



It was always a novel approach to charge Qld residents for land tax based on the value of property they owned in other states.
It was never explained how a QLD person whose only property was their prime residence in queensland, which would itself be exempt from land tax, but other properties would be taxed.
Not sure if he would be able to get the details of property from the Titles office, as each state has their own register.
Immaterial now, its dead in the water.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2022)

Has Brittany lost her bottle ?

She has failed to show up for the second day in a row.

I hope she manages to see it out, but the stress is obviously a factor.









						Brittany Higgins unavailable again as Bruce Lehrmann's trial enters sixth day
					

Brittany Higgins remains unavailable to give evidence on the sixth day of Bruce Lehrmann's trial for her alleged rape in Parliament House in 2019.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (12 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Has Brittany lost her bottle ?
> 
> She has failed to show up for the second day in a row.
> 
> ...



Could be many reasons, but one would assume that the venerable judge must have given thevok, otherwise the legal system would be a complete farce . Oh wait …
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (13 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Has Brittany lost her bottle ?
> 
> She has failed to show up for the second day in a row.
> 
> ...



Yes from reading last weekend's paper, it was a bit of a horror show.
It probably won't end well for all involved IMO.


----------



## moXJO (13 October 2022)

Intense pressure for her. 
But I still wouldn't support anything that weakens an evidence based conviction.


----------



## macca (13 October 2022)

moXJO said:


> Intense pressure for her.
> But I still wouldn't support anything that weakens an evidence based conviction.




these situations are SO difficult, it usually comes back to he said/ she said and the jury must find it hard to workout what actually happened.

She said under oath that she was so drunk she does really remember but she still wants to press charges.

My wife said that she is always surprised that it is assumed that the woman did not instigate or encourage sexual activity.

When I used to work in a nightclub it was made exceedingly obvious by at least two often three or four ladies each night that my company was welcome in bed


----------



## SirRumpole (13 October 2022)

macca said:


> these situations are SO difficult, it usually comes back to he said/ she said and the jury must find it hard to workout what actually happened.
> 
> She said under oath that she was so drunk she does really remember but she still wants to press charges.
> 
> ...




Lucky you ! What was the name of the nightclub ?


----------



## SirRumpole (13 October 2022)

macca said:


> these situations are SO difficult, it usually comes back to he said/ she said and the jury must find it hard to workout what actually happened.
> 
> She said under oath that she was so drunk she does really remember but she still wants to press charges.




Her lawyers would have warned her that it would be pretty tough.

Very courageous to go through with it, the difficulty is that she left it so late. If she had reported it that night then evidence could be taken from the scene.

Did her boss convince her not to say anything because it would damage the Party ? Maybe that should be looked at by NICNAAC.


----------



## moXJO (13 October 2022)

macca said:


> these situations are SO difficult, it usually comes back to he said/ she said and the jury must find it hard to workout what actually happened.
> 
> She said under oath that she was so drunk she does really remember but she still wants to press charges.
> 
> ...



Seen both sides of it. Women and men being sht people in general.


----------



## wayneL (13 October 2022)

While not being privy to any evidence at hand, it would seem on face value that this legal principle applies:





__





						Reasonable doubt - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## sptrawler (13 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Her lawyers would have warned her that it would be pretty tough.
> 
> Very courageous to go through with it, the difficulty is that she left it so late. If she had reported it that night then evidence could be taken from the scene.
> 
> Did her boss convince her not to say anything because it would damage the Party ? Maybe that should be looked at by NICNAAC.



Or was she talked into pursuing it, at a later date?
There seems to be a lot of conflicting info, just a terrible situation, it can't be good for her mental health.
Hopefully the case finishes quickly, it is just horrible for all involved.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 October 2022)

wayneL said:


> While not being privy to any evidence at hand, it would seem on face value that this legal principle applies:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't be surprised if this principle is under threat by a certain pressure group who think that women are  always right and must be believed.


----------



## wayneL (13 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if this principle is under threat by a certain pressure group who think that women are  always right and must be believed.



Here's the thing, if (and haven't really followed the case) he actually did rape her and can be proved beyond reasonable doubt, chuck him in jail, cut his balls off, pull his fingernails out, whatever.

I have rape victims in my circle of friends and it is something of a life sentence for the victim... an awful memory at best and life destroying at worst.

But, the legal principle still applies, because... well, we all know why.


----------



## macca (13 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Lucky you ! What was the name of the nightclub ?




It happens in most nightclubs every night, women hit on the male staff and men hit on the women staff.


----------



## IFocus (13 October 2022)

Geezuss come on gents the moment Higgins opened her mouth it was the end of her career, what possible gain could Higgins get for pursuing charges... hint SFA.

Higgins was a junior far from any hint of power within any of her work relationships so interested in any theories of why she would possibly even think of putting herself through this process?

Of course presumption of innocence applies as per the law, when do we  get pass presumption of guilt for the victims of rape?


----------



## wayneL (13 October 2022)

IFocus said:


> Geezuss come on gents the moment Higgins opened her mouth it was the end of her career, what possible gain could Higgins get for pursuing charges... hint SFA.
> 
> Higgins was a junior far from any hint of power within any of her work relationships so interested in any theories of why she would possibly even think of putting herself through this process?
> 
> Of course presumption of innocence applies as per the law, when do we  get pass presumption of guilt for the victims of rape?



Presumption of guilt for what, exactly?


----------



## moXJO (14 October 2022)

IFocus said:


> Geezuss come on gents the moment Higgins opened her mouth it was the end of her career, what possible gain could Higgins get for pursuing charges... hint SFA.
> 
> Higgins was a junior far from any hint of power within any of her work relationships so interested in any theories of why she would possibly even think of putting herself through this process?
> 
> Of course presumption of innocence applies as per the law, when do we  get pass presumption of guilt for the victims of rape



This isn't a run of the mill case.
I'm not suggesting this is why she is doing it, but there's book deals, speaking engagements, social elevation because of victim status, large following  you can leverage, etc.

I've known plenty of incidents where lies have been told because I was witness to events. 

I also know incidents that guys have absolutely committed a crime.

There's also the cases where everyone was too drunk.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 October 2022)

IFocus said:


> Geezuss come on gents the moment Higgins opened her mouth it was the end of her career, what possible gain could Higgins get for pursuing charges... hint SFA.




I believe her too, but allegations are not evidence.

The fact that she was paralytically drunk by her own admission may cause 'reasonable doubt' in the minds of the jury.


----------



## basilio (14 October 2022)

In the real world (so to speak )  there would be a snowballs chance in hell of a drunken woman in a junior position in an organisation even having the* nerve* to  press rape charges against a more senior colleague.

As has been expounded previously she was  blind drunk on the night of the alleged rape. In the "real world" doesn't that practically disqualify her from complaining about anything that might have happened ?  Why not just put it down to bad luck get over it and move on ?

I can think of more than a few woman friends over the years who have been in the same situation. A couple went to the police but were quickly disabused of taking the case further after interviews and some brutally frank advice from cops and lawyers.

So it certainly takes some courage and a new world view for young woman who was  pretty drunk at the time  to accuse a senior  work colleague of taking advantage of her state.

I could have some sympathy for the view that was all a monstrous lie and that the accused never, ever had sex with the defendant at the time. (He has not said any sex was consensual)

But then what if identical allegations of  taking advantage of drunk young woman were brought to light ? Would that have any effect on our thinking.

Naturally these allegations cannot be part of the current trial can they ?









						Third woman alleges she was sexually assaulted by same man accused of raping Brittany Higgins
					

A third woman alleges she was sexually assaulted by the same former federal government advisor accused of raping former Liberal staffer Brittany Higgins.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (14 October 2022)

basilio said:


> Naturally these allegations cannot be part of the current trial can they ?




No they can't. He's on trial for assaulting Brittany Higgins not the other woman.


----------



## moXJO (15 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I believe her too, but allegations are not evidence.
> 
> The fact that she was paralytically drunk by her own admission may cause 'reasonable doubt' in the minds of the jury.



Yeah I believe her version. But what I believe  means nothing in court.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 October 2022)

Personally, I will wait till all the evidence that various parties wish to produce has been done so.
Then I may or may not have an opinion as to which, if any, i give the most credence.
Mick


----------



## macca (15 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Personally, I will wait till all the evidence that various parties wish to produce has been done so.
> Then I may or may not have an opinion as to which, if any, i give the most credence.
> Mick



I think it would be very hard being on the jury

I would not like to ruin an innocent man's life but I do have 6 granddaughters, so naturally I would hate it if someone raped one of them and got away with it

I think I will just have to go with whatever the jury decides as they are actually seeing the witnesses give testimony, the body language and the little nuances would be noticed by those actually there, not me.


----------



## The Triangle (15 October 2022)

Has anyone in the media managed to ask any political party what their proposals are to prevent a reoccurrence of staffers drunkenly entering parliament and/or potentially getting raped/raping?   Such as: Drug/Breathalyzer test reading below 0.05 prior to entry? Cameras in every hallway? Security escort unless you're very senior and it's past 8 pm?

As much as this seems a simple textbook he said/she said/I was too drunk/high to remember case I find it unbelievable that Bruce Lehrmann would have just left the office at 2:00 am without saying anything or checking on Brittney considering they came to the office together only 30 minutes beforehand and she was by all accounts drunk.  I don't think any normal person would do that unless something 'bad' happened.

Bruce definitely fails the decent human test in my view, but I can't see him getting convicted unless some actual concrete evidence is produced.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Has anyone in the media managed to ask any political party what their proposals are to prevent a reoccurrence of staffers drunkenly entering parliament and/or potentially getting raped/raping?   Such as: Drug/Breathalyzer test reading below 0.05 prior to entry? Cameras in every hallway? Security escort unless you're very senior and it's past 8 pm?
> 
> As much as this seems a simple textbook he said/she said/I was too drunk/high to remember case I find it unbelievable that Bruce Lehrmann would have just left the office at 2:00 am without saying anything or checking on Brittney considering they came to the office together only 30 minutes beforehand and she was by all accounts drunk.  I don't think any normal person would do that unless something 'bad' happened.
> 
> Bruce definitely fails the decent human test in my view, but I can't see him getting convicted unless some actual concrete evidence is produced.




They don't need to leave the building to get drunk, they can do it on the premises.

The whole place should be made dry during working hours and no entry after 9pm.


----------



## IFocus (15 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> They don't need to leave the building to get drunk, they can do it on the premises.
> 
> The whole place should be made dry during working hours and no entry after 9pm.





And like most Australia work places drug testing...


----------



## moXJO (16 October 2022)

IFocus said:


> And like most Australia work places drug testing...



Canberra would just make coke legal


----------



## sptrawler (16 October 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Has anyone in the media managed to ask any political party what their proposals are to prevent a reoccurrence of staffers drunkenly entering parliament and/or potentially getting raped/raping?   Such as: Drug/Breathalyzer test reading below 0.05 prior to entry? Cameras in every hallway? Security escort unless you're very senior and it's past 8 pm?
> 
> As much as this seems a simple textbook he said/she said/I was too drunk/high to remember case I find it unbelievable that Bruce Lehrmann would have just left the office at 2:00 am without saying anything or checking on Brittney considering they came to the office together only 30 minutes beforehand and she was by all accounts drunk.  I don't think any normal person would do that unless something 'bad' happened.
> 
> Bruce definitely fails the decent human test in my view, but I can't see him getting convicted unless some actual concrete evidence is produced.



I agree, but I also wonder why someone who is so traumatised and upset that she puts the dress in a plastic bag, wouldn't go to the doctors for some forensic evidence. They are obviously both very smart people.


----------



## The Triangle (16 October 2022)

Going back to a topic earlier this year - are people like Brittney Higgins and Bruce Lehrmann the kind of staffers that the opposition MPs and Senators lose with Albo's reduced staff rules?  It doesn't sound like anything they did in their jobs was of any value to Australians.   If those are the kind of people getting hired, then no wonder Labor brought in that rule.  


sptrawler said:


> I agree, but I also wonder why someone who is so traumatised and upset that she puts the dress in a plastic bag, wouldn't go to the doctors for some forensic evidence. They are obviously both very smart people.



I want to see what Linda Reynolds has to say for herself next week - If I have an employee accusing someone of rape, I'm doing everything in my power to get them to see a doctor and report it to police.  What if the accused had HIV? 


SirRumpole said:


> They don't need to leave the building to get drunk, they can do it on the premises.
> 
> The whole place should be made dry during working hours and no entry after 9pm.



zero alcohol and drug levels are required in certain industrial settings because you'll likely hurt yourself or someone else operating heavy machinery which requires physical coordination.   If people want to go out for lunch and have a beer with a steak sandwich, then go back to work and work on a spreadsheet in an office building I think it's fine.


----------



## sptrawler (16 October 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Going back to a topic earlier this year - are people like Brittney Higgins and Bruce Lehrmann the kind of staffers that the opposition MPs and Senators lose with Albo's reduced staff rules?  It doesn't sound like anything they did in their jobs was of any value to Australians.   If those are the kind of people getting hired, then no wonder Labor brought in that rule.
> 
> I want to see what Linda Reynolds has to say for herself next week - If I have an employee accusing someone of rape, I'm doing everything in my power to get them to see a doctor and report it to police.  What if the accused had H



I'm only going from memory, because I have very limited internet at the moment, but I don't think Brittany reported it to Linda Reynolds for some time and she also said she had been to the doctors. During the trail it was said she didn't infact go to the doctors.
It is all a real mess and sounds like the reporting of the incident happened much later, maybe someone could post up timelines, because from my reading of the media reports it sounded like the charges weren't brought forward untill after talking to the press well after the event.
Like I said I've had limited access to the internet, but that is the impression I gleaned.


----------



## sptrawler (20 October 2022)

Looks like the case is coming to a conclusion.









						Bruce Lehrmann’s lawyer casts doubt on Brittany Higgins’ credibility during closing arguments in court
					

The ACT supreme court trial of Lehrmann is in its final stages, with the jury set to begin deliberations later on Wednesday




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mullokintyre (21 October 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like the case is coming to a conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Jury has been considering its verdict since 3.00 p.M. Wednesday, and they will return on Monday.
There seems to be no relationship between the length of deliberation and the verdict, though some suggest that quick verdicts are usually not guilty
Mick


----------



## wayneL (21 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Jury has been considering its verdict since 3.00 p.M. Wednesday, and they will return on Monday.
> There seems to be no relationship between the length of deliberation and the verdict, though some suggest that quick verdicts are usually not guilty
> Mick



It's interesting how this case has become so important in the national psyche.

It certainly is important for the people involved, but I'm kind of at a loss why we're all following it so intently.... Well, apart from the fact that it is being so intensely politicised


----------



## SirRumpole (21 October 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like the case is coming to a conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






wayneL said:


> It's interesting how this case has become so important in the national psyche.
> 
> It certainly is important for the people involved, but I'm kind of at a loss why we're all following it so intently.... Well, apart from the fact that it is being so intensely politicised



Brittany is the current poster girl for the MeToo movement and the feminist press lap this stuff up. The shrieking coming from female journos is not matched by the males who are more likely not to have  axes to grind.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In another example of rats deserting the sinking ship, a fourth ( or is it fifth?)  NSW state minister, Rob Stokes, has announced his retirement.
> Labour now a shoe in at state level NSW.
> Mick



No 5 or 6 just announced his departure.
Health Minister, Brad Hazar,  has joined the rush of departed and announced he will not be contesting the next election.
From ABC News


> New South Wales Health Minister Brad Hazzard has announced he will retire from politics at next year's state election after three decades in parliament.
> 
> Key points:​
> Mr Hazzard has been in NSW parliament since 1991
> ...



_
I expected some pun headlines about health hazards being removed, journlists are less fun these days.
If by some chance the coalition win the next election, there will be precious few with any ministerial experience.
But then again, that level of experience will still be greater than the labour potential ministers, who have pretty much zero.
Mick_


----------



## PZ99 (25 October 2022)

Another key NSWexiteer and union hater: David Elliot > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10...-david-elliott-announces-retirement/101566878

A lot of the 3 way factional war in the fed Libs that messed up their preselections has spilled over into NSW


----------



## mullokintyre (25 October 2022)

Aaaagggghhhh,  factions, don't ya just luv em.
Internal hate sometimes exceeds the hate for your opponents.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 October 2022)

Its great to see the double standards applied to lydia Thorpe over her "unwise" relationship with a bikie gang leader while sitting on the  parliamentary committee overseeing bikie crime, but then again,  the Greens have always thought that transparency, honesty, conflict of interest etc etc only to others.

Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (31 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Seems like Dan Andrews  may be in a spot of bother if the number of rats deserting the sinking ship syndrome is anything to go by.
> Apart from the seven MP's Mark Gepp, Richard Wynne Jill Hennesy , Dustin Halse , John Eren , Jane Garett and Danielle Green who all resigned immediately   within a two week period  back in December 2021, the was Luke Donellan  who resigned in October of the  branch stacking recordings, and of course there was Adam Somnurek who may well recontest as an independant over the same issue.
> And then of course there was Jenny Mikakos who was thrown under a bus by Andrews over the mess that became Covid back in June 2021.
> None of them will be recontesting for Labour.
> ...



Vic Labour is joining the exodus.
from ABC News


> Victorian Employment Minister Jaala Pulford says she has no regrets after calling time on her political career, just weeks out from the November 26 election.
> 
> Ms Pulford's exit will further reduce the number of experienced ministers in the Andrews government, after four ministers announced their departure in June.



Not sure why the ABC mentioned only the four ministers that departed in June, as since this current governmen four year period, there have been a total of 17 members departed,   8 of which are/were ministers. 
And yet it seems the polls are still very much in favour of  Labour.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (31 October 2022)

In last tuesday federal budget, labour made a comittment (of sorts) to build 1 million extra homes in OZ.
From ABC News 


> A plan to build 1 million new homes by the end of the decade as part of a historic deal between the federal government, states, private investors and the construction sector, will be revealed in tonight's federal budget as Labor seeks to mitigate the nation's housing crisis.
> 
> In his first budget, Treasurer Jim Chalmers will outline the government's plan to increase housing supply over five years from 2024, although it will rely heavily on the market itself.
> 
> Under the scheme, the Commonwealth would support an additional 10,000 affordable dwellings in that time frame, costing the budget $350 million, with the states and territories expected to deliver the same number of homes for low to moderate income households.



I was a little surprised that some of the figures were not analysed a little more closely.
\While the figure of a million homes in a decade is not a big deal, Australia built nearly that many  in the decade before Covid.
However, the rest is questionable.
Firstly, 10,000 affordable dwellings at a total cost of 350,000,000  means each house is going to cost 35,000.
And that does not include the cost of the land on which these affordable houses will be placed.
There is no chance on earth of building anything apart from a small shed for that sort of money.
Now the spin doctors have already started to water it all down.
The million homes are "an ambition and aspiration".
According to a transcript of the interview with  Julie Collins   at DSS.gov .au


> “We know we've got a lot of work to do on this,” she told RN Breakfast.
> 
> “It is an ambition and aspiration, if you like, for the million homes.
> 
> ...



I wonder how I would go if i suggested that paying my taxes was "an ambition and an aspiration", rather than a commitment to do so>
Would the ATO accept that??
The maths i did above may have been a little too hard for the presenter, which may explain why he did not ask the bleedin obvious question.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (31 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> And yet it seems the polls are still very much in favour of  Labour.
> Mick





Think its as much about the mess the Libs are in also.


----------



## wayneL (31 October 2022)

IFocus said:


> Think its as much about the mess the Libs are in also.



Yes.

Allegorically, It's become a choice between Stalin and Mr Bean.


----------



## mullokintyre (31 October 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yes.
> 
> Allegorically, It's become a choice between Stalin and Mr Bean.



Yea, but at least mr Bean was good for a laugh.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yea, but at least mr Bean was good for a laugh.
> Mick




I laugh at Dutton all the time.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> And yet it seems the polls are still very much in favour of Labour.



Have you seen the Victorian opposition?

I could certainly point to flaws with Labor at the state level in Vic but if someone wants to vote for an alternative then the question is who else would actually be better?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 November 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Have you seen the Victorian opposition?
> 
> I could certainly point to flaws with Labor at the state level in Vic but if someone wants to vote for an alternative then the question is who else would actually be better?




Same in NSW.


----------



## PZ99 (1 November 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Have you seen the Victorian opposition?
> 
> I could certainly point to flaws with Labor at the state level in Vic but if someone wants to vote for an alternative then the question is who else would actually be better?





_"Don't mention the Belt and Road...."_


----------



## mullokintyre (3 November 2022)

You know its getting close to an election when things like this come out.
From The Evil Murdoch empire


> A man who nearly died after being hit by* Daniel Andrews*’ car in 2013 is now seeking justice for the incident weeks out from the Victorian election.
> 
> *Ryan Meuleman*, now 24, was hit while riding his bike along the Mornington Peninsula when he was 15, according to the Herald Sun.
> 
> ...



So why now?  It happened ten years ago. It was  refrred to IBAC 5 years ago. (see 9 News )
Could it possibly be another one of those political  stunts because there is an election in Vic in three weeks?
Why is it only reported in the evil murdoch press?
The original crash spawned a slew of memes about the Catherin Andrews defence, because the VicPol in their  haste to  help out forgot standard protocol  and did not breathalyse the premiers wife at the crash scene. ( see The guardian)
Mick


----------



## PZ99 (3 November 2022)

Hehe... his wife was driving the car and VicPol had a fail under the previous Govt at the time.

I don't think Dictator Dan has too much to worry about.

It reminds me of the Bill Shorten rape accusation thingy.. come think of it, didn't he have a crash too ? lol


----------



## sptrawler (3 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I laugh at Dutton all the time.



Now if only we can get Albo to do a voice over, we've nailed it.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 November 2022)

Negative gearing and capital gains tax discount to cost Budget $20 billion a year.









						Negative gearing and capital gains tax discount set to cost the budget $20b a year within a decade
					

The cost of negative gearing is set to more than triple as interest rates rise and, with it, the capital gains tax discount is expected to cost the federal budget more than $20 billion a year within a decade.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## PZ99 (3 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Negative gearing and capital gains tax discount to cost Budget $20 billion a year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep... keep the income tax cuts but get rid of this crap.


----------



## wayneL (3 November 2022)

Tax me harder, Daddy!

Jayzuz Horace, how much does the plethora of other totally bull**** schemes cost the budget?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Tax me harder, Daddy!
> 
> Jayzuz Horace, how much does the plethora of other totally bull**** schemes cost the budget?



Which ones do you have in mind ?

They all add up.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 November 2022)

Sour grapes possibly, but a lot of truth in there. Turnbull savages Dutton (whoda thunk it ?).









						'Idiocy': Turnbull delivers stinging review of 'unelectable' Dutton
					

Mr Turnbull delivered a full frontal attack on the leadership of Peter Dutton and the party’s rejection of renewable energy.




					thenewdaily.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (4 November 2022)

Unelectable Turnbull calling out unelectable Dutton.
yeah, that works.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (4 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Sour grapes possibly, but a lot of truth in there. Turnbull savages Dutton (whoda thunk it ?).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That article is absolutely chockers full of irony.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Unelectable Turnbull calling out unelectable Dutton.
> yeah, that works.
> Mick



Turnbull actually won an election as I recall.


----------



## wayneL (4 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Turnbull actually won an election as I recall.



That's before folks realised he was a Manchurian candidate.


----------



## mullokintyre (4 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Turnbull actually won an election as I recall.



Well, when Dutton has had a chance as leader in an election we can compare them.
Abbott had a 30 seat majority when he won office before Turnbull shafted him  two years later, called a double dissolution and promptly reduced the margin to just one seat.  
 He then whinged when he got unseated by  Duttons call for  leadership spill that was eventually won Morrison,  who in his own peoples trial improved the margin to 3 seats.
Thats not the record of someone who is in a position to call someone else unelectable.
Not much of hurdle to overcome for Dutton.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (4 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, when Dutton has had a chance as leader in an election we can compare them.
> Abbott had a 30 seat majority when he won office before Turnbull shafted him  two years later, called a double dissolution and promptly reduced the margin to just one seat.
> He then whinged when he got unseated by  Duttons call for  leadership spill that was eventually won Morrison,  who in his own peoples trial improved the margin to 3 seats.
> Thats not the record of someone who is in a position to call someone else unelectable.
> ...




Well I have a feeling that the teals will be there for a while. Not much chance of winning government if the Libs can't knock them off. It's apparent that the Coalition's penchant for fossil fuels is electoral poison , and nuclear is not a viable option either in the teal seats.


----------



## wayneL (4 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well I have a feeling that the teals will be there for a while. Not much chance of winning government if the Libs can't knock them off. It's apparent that the Coalition's penchant for fossil fuels is electoral poison , and nuclear is not a viable option either in the teal seats.



Yeah, reality is still a ways off for the chattering classes.


----------



## mullokintyre (4 November 2022)

I doubt the Libs see him as PM material. he is the stop gap.
The best they can hope for is to reduce the margin of seats behind at the next election before finding someone less grating.
Fossil fuels may be an election issue, but if diesel, petrol,  gas and electricity prices keep rising,  the economics of it start to play on peoples minds.
The democrats are finding that in the US, where because of rising costs for the plebs,  the abortion issue has moved to about third place on the things that matter to voters, with the economy . inflation and cost of living front and centre in more than half of peoples minds. Much to my surprise, it seems to be white women , who have deserted the dems, as it is they  who no doubt see the inflationary  aspects of food buying .
Mick


----------



## wayneL (4 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well I have a feeling that the teals will be there for a while. Not much chance of winning government if the Libs can't knock them off. It's apparent that the Coalition's penchant for fossil fuels is electoral poison , and nuclear is not a viable option either in the teal seats.



The Teals remind me of The Nuclear Disarmament Party, but stupider. All hot air with no capability or will.

But in the case of the Teals, climate action is for "other people".


----------



## SirRumpole (4 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> The Teals remind me of The Nuclear Disarmament Party, but stupider. All hot air with no capability or will.
> 
> But in the case of the Teals, climate action is for "other people".



True, but they are an alternative to even more stupid people.


----------



## wayneL (4 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but they are an alternative to even more stupid people.



To revisit in ten years, see you then bro.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Fossil fuels may be an election issue, but if diesel, petrol, gas and electricity prices keep rising, the economics of it start to play on peoples minds.



There was pretty serious momentum to address that one 1989-90.

Then came the recession and change of PM and basically not another word was said about it for quite some years.


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well I have a feeling that the teals will be there for a while. Not much chance of winning government if the Libs can't knock them off. It's apparent that the Coalition's penchant for fossil fuels is electoral poison , and nuclear is not a viable option either in the teal seats.



The proof of the pudding will be the results produced.
As yet the teals greens and Labors renewable promises havent been tested.
There is a huge difference beteeen promising something and delivering it.
I hope they do, but the first cab off the rank, the $250 per year reduction in household power costs is looking shaky.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I hope they do, but the first cab off the rank, the $250 per year reduction in household power costs is looking shaky.




I think that is by 2025 so they have some time. They can't really afford not to act on reducing power prices, otherwise the economy will go to pot.


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think that is by 2025 so they have some time. They can't really afford not to act on reducing power prices, otherwise the economy will go to pot.



Now we have the social housing commitment for 1m new houses, again Labor is starting to make commitments that set themselves a high bar.
How they are going to fund all this and bring down the debt, without incentivising the projects, which then opens them up to being rorted, it could end up in tears a sense of over promising and under delivering is starting to creep in IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Now we have the social housing commitment for 1m new houses, again Labor is starting to make commitments that set themselves a high bar.
> How they are going to fund all this and bring down the debt, without incentivising the projects, which then opens them up to being rorted, it could end up in tears a sense of over promising and under delivering is starting to creep in IMO.




Yes , interesting times ahead.

They are going to have to put up taxes on someone, most likely the ones they can most afford to offend. The gas and coal companies seem likely candidates.


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , interesting times ahead.
> 
> They are going to have to put up taxes on someone, most likely the ones they can most afford to offend. The gas and coal companies seem likely candidates.



Well I think they are going to have to talk the states into re starting the State housing commissions and start building social housing, or they will have too many crosses to bear at the next election. 
Way too many blue sky policies, with too many hurdles in the way to achieve them.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well I think they are going to have to talk the states into re starting the State housing commissions and start building social housing, or they will have too many crosses to bear at the next election.
> Way too many blue sky policies, with too many hurdles in the way to achieve them.



Yes , I heard that the States were originally going to pay half the NDIS but they wriggled their way out of it.


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , I heard that the States were originally going to pay half the NDIS but they wriggled their way out of it.



Yes, Albo needs to focus on an achievable goal, in a tight economy.
The social housing ticks the boxes, compassionate, share the costs with the States and doesnt step on big busineses toes. It also covers adding jobs and apprenticeships.
Win all round at minimal cost.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , I heard that the States were originally going to pay half the NDIS but they wriggled their way out of it.



NDIS is going to be an endless vacuum cleaner of money.
According to  NDIS , as of August 22, there were a tad over half a million Australians  getting some level of support from NDIS.
They added 100k people since  April 2021
However,  that is not the end of it, they are adding more people all the time, and if you look at some of the statistics, there will be at least a doubling of those numbers.
According to Disability resources

Over 4.4 million people in Australia have some form of disability. That’s 1 in 5 people.
17.8% of females and 17.6% of males in Australia have disability.
The likelihood of living with disability increases with age. 2 in 5 people with disability are 65 years or older.
Of all people with disability, 1.9 million are aged 65 and over, representing almost half (44.5%) of all people with disability. This reflects both an ageing population and increasing life expectancy of Australians.
2.1 million Australians of working age (15-64 years) have disability.
35.9% of Australia’s 8.9 million households include a person with disability. [1]
Only 4.4% of people with a disability in Australia use a wheelchair. [1]
1 in 6 Australians are affected by hearing loss. There are approximately 30,000 Deaf Auslan users with total hearing loss [2].
Vision Australia estimates there are currently 357,000 people in Australia who are blind or have low vision. They project that the number of Australians who are blind or have low vision will grow to 564,000 by 2030. (Refractive error not included). [3]
45% of Australians aged 16–85 years, experience a mental health condition during their lifetime. [4]
3 million Australians live with depression or anxiety. [4]
Research shows job or financial loss can increase a person’s risk of health problems, such as depression and anxiety. [5]
Over three-quarters (76.8%) of people with disability reported a physical disorder as their main condition. The most common physical disorder was musculoskeletal disorder (29.6%) including arthritis and related disorders (12.7%) and back problems (12.6%).
There are 2.1 million Australians of working age with disability. Of these, just under half were employed (47.8%), compared with 80.3% of people without disability.
So 2.1 million people of working age will need some level of NDIS support.
Given that the working age is anywhere between 16 to 64,  there are around 16 million  people in that grouping, 15% of whom will have some sort of disability.
Those people  of working age who actually work are having some big burdens  to support from apart from the NDIS. 
Theres health, defence, education, the legal system, security, foreign relations,  transport infrastructure, all three levels of government.
No wonder people are opting out of working.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (5 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> NDIS is going to be an endless vacuum cleaner of money.
> According to  NDIS , as of August 22, there were a tad over half a million Australians  getting some level of support from NDIS.
> They added 100k people since  April 2021
> However,  that is not the end of it, they are adding more people all the time, and if you look at some of the statistics, there will be at least a doubling of those numbers.
> ...









						Is the NDIS means tested? | The Benevolent Society
					






					www.benevolent.org.au
				




NDIS is not currently means tested. I wonder why not, everything else is. (Oh sorry, franking credit rebates aren't either).


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2022)

I said a long time ago NDIS was the elephant in the room, not the age pension, Labor are the only ones who can reign it in, the Libs get bagged for attacking those who can least afford it.
Shorten is just the guy to sort it out and it does need sorting out, the over charging for basic services is outrageous and needs to be clamped down on.


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2022)

IMO Turnbull showing exactly why he wasn't suitable to be the leader, he was a " my way or the highway" leader.








						'Idiocy': Turnbull delivers stinging review of 'unelectable' Dutton
					

Mr Turnbull delivered a full frontal attack on the leadership of Peter Dutton and the party’s rejection of renewable energy.




					thenewdaily.com.au
				



As the article says, he clashed with those who said nuclear needs to be considered, if we are to achieve net Zero everything has to be considered IMO.
20 years ago no one would have considered a battery operated drill let alone a battery operated car, to say any technology is off the agenda is Neanderthal and just dumb $hit IMO.
The guy is a goose IMO. You either want clean energy or you are sabotaging the path to get there


----------



## mullokintyre (7 November 2022)

Just when I thought Tony Abott could not come with any more dumb ideas. according to the Evil Murdoch Empire


> Former prime minister Tony Abbott has called for a return of compulsory national service, saying school-leavers should be forced to spend up to 12 months giving back to their country.
> Speaking to the Institute of Public Affairs’ Heartland podcast, Mr Abbott said 18-year-olds should be expected to volunteer for a “significant” period of time in the community in a bid to improve social cohesion.
> 
> He said governments had an obligation to take care of the Australian public, but it should also be a “two-way street”.
> ...



yeah , compulsory National service.
Worked so well last time, so many of my nasho contemporaries completely screwed by their nasho experience in Vietnam.
Moron.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Just when I thought Tony Abott could not come with any more dumb ideas. according to the Evil Murdoch Empire
> 
> yeah , compulsory National service.
> Worked so well last time, so many of my nasho contemporaries completely screwed by their nasho experience in Vietnam.
> ...




Tony's career seems remarkably vacant of any National Service whatsoever.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Tony's career seems remarkably vacant of any National Service whatsoever.



I would have to disagree with that part.
He has  worked as a volunteer for many years both as lifesaver and as a member of the local fire services volunteers, but does not allow him to get away with demanding national Service for others.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I would have to disagree with that part.
> He has  worked as a volunteer for many years both as lifesaver and as a member of the local fire services volunteers, but does not allow him to get away with demanding national Service for others.
> Mick



Fair enough. I thought he was working for the Brits these days anyway.


----------



## moXJO (7 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Just when I thought Tony Abott could not come with any more dumb ideas. according to the Evil Murdoch Empire
> 
> yeah , compulsory National service.
> Worked so well last time, so many of my nasho contemporaries completely screwed by their nasho experience in Vietnam.
> ...



I think if it were for defence of the country only (no overseas deployment). Then it might be inevitable one day.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 November 2022)

If people feel the need to defend their country, they can join the army.
What is not ok one group of people demanding that another group should be forced into it, especially when those who  who will be least affected by the demand do the most demanding.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (7 November 2022)

Too soon Tones.

It's an idea for which a time may well come. Other countries have this policy, Israel, Greece(AFAIK) and Switzerland are to that immediately come to mind.

Prediction: if this sort of policy is ever enacted, it will be Labor which implements it, but only after people like our Tones float it out.

BTW, I am ideologically agin it, but just saying how I see things possibly happening.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Too soon Tones.
> 
> It's an idea for which a time may well come. Other countries have this policy, Israel, Greece(AFAIK) and Switzerland are to that immediately come to mind.
> 
> ...




Considering Whitlam abolished it, I don't think it's in Labor's DNA to bring it back.

It's always been Liberal policy, get the lazy Lefties off their @rses and maybe out of the way permanently.

All the Liberals called up would be officers of course.


----------



## PZ99 (7 November 2022)

Hehe.... when it comes to defence most so called "National Service" will be elite level cyber warfare.

For that you need a truck load of training and that's not going to happen when you de-regulate university fees which was the ultimate panacea for the Abbott Govt along with cancelling the dole for under 30's and blowing out the pension age to 70.

This is just Abbott being a tool again.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> NDIS is going to be an endless vacuum cleaner of money.



The idea's well intentioned. Trouble is, there's far too many middlemen clipping the ticket.

It's one thing to have taxpayers footing the bill to provide whatever service to someone who's disabled.

It's another thing entirely when two thirds of the money's going not to providing the service to the disabled person but rather, it's going to fund some middleman's world trip and mansion.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 November 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> The idea's well intentioned. Trouble is, there's far too many middlemen clipping the ticket.
> 
> It's one thing to have taxpayers footing the bill to provide whatever service to someone who's disabled.
> 
> It's another thing entirely when two thirds of the money's going not to providing the service to the disabled person but rather, it's going to fund some middleman's world trip and mansion.



Another trouble ls that 'disability' has a wide definition.  Is having poor eyesight a disability ? Why shouldn't the taxpayer pay for peoples glasses ? There is a responsibility to ensure that the money goes to people who most need it, which unfortunately means a lot of oversight which means more public servants for compliance.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> which unfortunately means a lot of oversight which means more public servants for compliance.



Employing public servants to oversee things doesn't bother me within reason. There's a cost but it's a known, fixed cost of wages, offices and so on.

It's when someone whacks a huge mark-up on everything that it's a bottomless pit of problems. When every $1 spent on service delivery yields $2 in profit for the middleman, there's an incentive to spend as much as possible. There's no point buying something for $50 when you can buy it for $150 and make three times the margin on it.

Health isn't the only industry with this basic problem.


----------



## sptrawler (8 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Just when I thought Tony Abott could not come with any more dumb ideas. according to the Evil Murdoch Empire
> 
> yeah , compulsory National service.
> Worked so well last time, so many of my nasho contemporaries completely screwed by their nasho experience in Vietnam.
> ...



If we become a republic, I would say it will be introduced for sure.


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2022)

As I was saying in August, anti corruption commissions as they stand, are just another pseudo Govt Dept, taking the pizz IMO.
They just seem to be there to just give legitimacy to poor conduct. They are supposed to be there to investigate corrupt behaviour and hold the Govt accountable, yet they are hamstrung by the Govt being able to decide how it is done. 









						IBAC chief wanted Andrews corruption probe to be heard in public
					

Operation Daintree, an integrity investigation into a government payment to a union, was held behind closed doors. The head of IBAC says it would have been “preferable” for it to be open




					www.theage.com.au
				




Victoria’s anti-corruption chief Robert Redlich says a secret investigation that involved Premier Daniel Andrews being interviewed over his promised $3.4 million payments to a union ought to have been held in public.

But laws restricting the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission’s power to question witnesses publicly meant Operation Daintree and the premier’s role in it remained confidential until some details were reported by _The Age_ last week.
Asked if IBAC should have openly questioned witnesses in Operation Daintree, Redlich said: “All things being equal, it would have been preferable if those matters had been capable of being explored in public.”
“There will always be questions about whether or not, if one holds a public hearing, there is a sufficiently grave risk that reputations will be unfairly damaged. One shouldn’t engage in a public hearing unless one is satisfied that that is not going to occur and, similarly, it is not going to result in unfair damage to a witness’ welfare.

“But I think in both of those cases [Operation Watts, which focused on sacked Labor minister Adem Somyurek, and Operation Daintree], it would have been better had we been able to conduct a public hearing.”

Under laws introduced by the Andrews government in 2019, IBAC is required to have reasonable grounds to believe “serious or systemic corrupt conduct” has taken place before it holds a public hearing. This barrier came on top of the requirement in the legislation for “exceptional circumstances”.


----------



## mullokintyre (12 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I was saying in August, anti corruption commissions as they stand, are just another pseudo Govt Dept, taking the pizz IMO.
> They just seem to be there to just give legitimacy to poor conduct. They are supposed to be there to investigate corrupt behaviour and hold the Govt accountable, yet they are hamstrung by the Govt being able to decide how it is done.
> 
> Under laws introduced by the Andrews government in 2019, IBAC is required to have reasonable grounds to believe “serious or systemic corrupt conduct” has taken place before it holds a public hearing. This barrier came on top of the requirement in the legislation for “exceptional circumstances”.



it seems that most governments seem to think that corruption only applies to others.
Back in 2015, the Barnett coalition government made some alterations to the legislation to effectively exempt themselves from the CCC.
from The West


> State MPs have granted themselves immunity from investigation by the Corruption and Crime Commission to enjoy special status as the only public officers not subject to its extraordinary powers, according to the watchdog’s chief.
> 
> In a sensational speech to Curtin University this month, CCC Commissioner John McKechnie declared a Barnett government overhaul of its Act in 2015 effectively meant Parliament would deal with offending MPs in-house.
> 
> ...




the latest version of a national  IBAc has the usual exemptions for mates clause.

From Australian parliament legislation


> Various Acts passed by the Parliament have excluded ‘an official of a registered industrial organisation’ from the definition of a ‘public official’ or a ‘Commonwealth public official’. These Acts have included the _Criminal Code Act 1995_ (see the Dictionary at the Schedule to the _Criminal Code_) and the _Public Interest Disclosure Act 2013_ (section 69). Further, the Revised Explanatory Memorandum to the National Security Legislation Amendment (Espionage and Foreign Interference) Bill 2018, which was passed during the Coalition Government’s term, acknowledged and did not seek to alter the exclusion of ‘an official of a registered industrial organisation’ from the definition of a ‘Commonwealth public official’ in the Dictionary to the Criminal Code.[49]
> 
> Noting the Shadow Attorney-General’s criticism, it appears an implication of the proposed exclusion in subclause 12(3) of the NACC Bill is that if a public official has engaged in conduct that adversely affects the honest or impartial exercise of a union official’s powers under the _Fair Work Act 2009_ or the _Work Health and Safety Act 2011_, then that conduct of the public official in relation to the union official is not ‘corrupt conduct’ as defined in *paragraph 8(1)(a)* of the NACC Bill. Similarly, as the union official is not a staff member of a Commonwealth agency as defined in *subclause 12(3)* (noting that they may come within the definition of staff member in subclause 12(1) if they are, for example, a contracted service provider under a Commonwealth contract) and, therefore, absent relevant additional factors, not a public official as defined in *clause 10*, it appears that *paragraphs 8(1)(b)–(e)* also do not apply to them.



So union officials are exempt.  
At last count there were about 1.4 mnillion union members in OZ, and the number is falling.
According to the ATO there is just a tad over 1.1 million members of SMSF funds.
If the  rates of change stay the same , Within the next ten to fifteen  years, the numbers in SMASF will overtake Union mmebers.
Will the SMSF members have the same  clout in society?
I doubt it.
Mick


----------



## basilio (16 November 2022)

* $1.8 billion Robodebt bill ‘accidentally’ sent to Scott Morrison     * 









A letter asking for a payment of $1.8 billion to cover the compensation costs of Robodebt victims has accidentally been sent to former PM Scott Morrison. Despite the ‘administration’ error, he will still need to pay the bill.

In a statement today, a spokesperson from the Government refused to apologise to Morrison, saying the debt notices were automatically generated based on a complex mathematical algorithm that was out of their hands. “This has got nothing to do with us. The machine works out where to send these letters, and once they’re sent we can’t retract them. Payment will be required within 60 days, or further fines will apply”.                                                                                                            

To avoid the payment, the onus will be on Morrison to prove that he is not responsible for the bill, which experts say will not be possible.  









						$1.8 billion Robodebt bill ‘accidentally’ sent to Scott Morrison
					

“Sorry, it was a system error, but you will still be required to pay it”




					www.theshovel.com.au
				





"THIS IS A JOKE..." ( perhaps ?)


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2022)

With a new Government, the floods don't seem to be as political as they were last time. 🤣
Lismore in March.








						Scott Morrison circus fails to impress Lismore, a town that has lost everything
					

The prime minister is met with anger and protest on his visit to the flood-ravaged NSW town, and doesn’t stop to shake hands




					www.theguardian.com
				




Lismore in November.








						Lismore residents sleeping rough after floods plead for help
					






					9now.nine.com.au
				












						Record flooding at Condobolin set to worsen, third person feared swept away in floodwaters
					

Police are searching for a third person feared swept away in floodwaters at Eugowra with one person already found dead and the search continuing for another, as inland NSW's flood crisis continues.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Can't wait to see a more balanced bushfire season.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 November 2022)

Ahh, the greens, ya just know that  almost anything they come up with will be totally impractical, fail to achieve what they aimed for, and will cost someone (else) a lot of money.
From ABC News


> Would knowing how long a mobile phone lasts change your mind about buying it?
> 
> Key points:​
> The proposal would mandate minimum life expectancy on electronic items
> ...



Firstly, everything from Mobile phones to  calculators are  not even manufactured in Australia, much less South Australia. So exactly how much clout do they think they have over manufacturers?
Secondly, unless they can convince all other states or the feds to go along with the idea, South Australia will lose out on  business as consumers just buy from interstate retailers. They will also lose out on GST, payroll tax, and whatever else moves out of the state.
Thirdly, how are they going to enforce the legislation  on overseas manufacturers, shift the blame to importers?
They know they have a snowflakes chance in hell of ever getting these things implemented, so they don't have to make any of their pronouncements practical or even possible.
The ultimate virtue signallers.
Mick


----------



## orr (1 December 2022)

Heavy booking of the prayer room down in Canberra at the moment by the elected members of the Hillsong district.
One of gods little rewards.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Ahh, the greens, ya just know that  almost anything they come up with will be totally impractical, fail to achieve what they aimed for, and will cost someone (else) a lot of money.
> From ABC News
> 
> Firstly, everything from Mobile phones to  calculators are  not even manufactured in Australia, much less South Australia. So exactly how much clout do they think they have over manufacturers?
> ...



It's actually worse because what will happen in any business situation, and by that I'm referring to businesses using the devices eg a computer in an office, is that in order to meet WHS requirements they'll simply throw out anything "out of date".

And so it becomes a maximum usable life in practice. If computer monitors are labelled as (say) 2 year life then no business owner in their right mind will risk having a monitor over 2 years old on the premises lest something bad happens, someone gets hurt, and they're left standing there in court trying to explain why they hadn't replaced the monitor they knew was out of date.

That's not being sarcastic, it's exactly what most large corporates would do and for that matter the more legally focused smaller businesses will feel compelled to do the same. End result = far more products needing to be manufactured and far more waste created, a loss for everyone but especially the environment.

I'm not joking there to be clear.


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like the case is coming to a conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Interesting development in the Higgins Vs Lehrmann trail today.









						Bruce Lehrmann sexual assault charge expected to be dropped
					

The second trial had been pencilled in for early in 2023. Shane Drumgold, the ACT Director of Public Prosecutions will make an announcement tomorrow morning.




					www.watoday.com.au
				




The second trial of Bruce Lehrmann, the man accused of sexually assaulting Brittany Higgins, is expected to be abandoned and the charges dropped, reportedly because of new evidence concerning the impact on Higgins’ mental health.
Shane Drumgold, the ACT Director of Public Prosecutions, is reportedly ready to use his prosecutorial discretion to announce that the charges will be dropped against former Liberal staffer Bruce Lehrmann and the trial will not proceed, according to _News.com.au._
_This masthead has independently confirmed that Drumgold is expected to announce on Friday morning that the second trial will not proceed._
Drumgold’s office released a short statement to the media on Thursday afternoon.

“I wish to advise that the Director of Public Prosecutions, Shane Drumgold SC, will be making a media statement tomorrow morning (Friday 2 December 2022) at 10.00am, regarding the matter of R v Lehrmann,” the email said.

“Mr Drumgold will read a short pre-prepared statement and will not be taking questions.”


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2022)

It was always going to end thus.
Higgins has been used by the media, the I hate all things conservative brigade, her current boyfriend,  the ACT  DPP,  the legal profession, and probably a few others I can't think of.
Now that the trial is over , we are starting to see some of the things come out that were never included as evidence in the trial.
The ACT police are now saying that they recommended against prosecution as it was unlikely to succeed, and  reckon the decision was a purely political one. The police had concerns with Ms Higgins about inconsistencies in disclosure,  her reluctance to hand over phones, and then her deleting things from her mobile before eventually handing them over.
We will never now the truth of this matter,  and both of them will  have difficulties for some time, and one has to ask what has been achieved by all this apart from  two lives ruined, but lawyers making a lot of money, 
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> .
> We will never now the truth of this matter,  and both of them will  have difficulties for some time, and one has to ask what has been achieved by all this apart from  two lives ruined, but lawyers making a lot of money,
> Mick



Also a coupe of media personalities did o.k out of it, as I said in the early stages, it is going to end badly for all concerned.
Bruce Lehrmann's career is ruined and no doubt he will be chasing compensation, Higgins career will also suffer one would think, I wonder if the book offer is still current , it is just one big mess.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Also a coupe of media personalities did o.k out of it, as I said in the early stages, it is going to end badly for all concerned.
> Bruce Lehrmann's career is ruined and no doubt he will be chasing compensation, Higgins career will also suffer one would think, I wonder if the book offer is still current , it is just one big mess.



Very sad for Brittany.

Apparently she has been subject to a lot of vile social media comments.

Maybe social media should have to follow the same standards as MSM when it comes to commenting on court cases.


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Very sad for Brittany.
> 
> Apparently she has been subject to a lot of vile social media comments.
> 
> Maybe social media should have to follow the same standards as MSM when it comes to commenting on court cases.



It is sad for both of them, they will both carry the scars of a public hearing, with no finality or closure.
It shouldn't have been so public and probably a judge only hearing, so that the proceedings could have been kept quite and the verdict reached.
The media making it a national circus, even before the trail started didn't help, but that's what the media does.
It certainly sounds as though someone gave Brittany some encouragement, without explaining the downsides, it was always going to be a difficult case when two people are inebriated and trying to recall events and timelines.
Hopefully those who drove Brittany to the issues she has now, feel suitably ashamed IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is sad for both of them, they will both carry the scars of a public hearing, with no finality or closure.
> It shouldn't have been so public and probably a judge only hearing, so that the proceedings could have been kept quite and the verdict reached.
> The media making it a national circus, even before the trail started didn't help, but that's what the media does.
> It certainly sounds as though someone gave Brittany some encouragement, without explaining the downsides, it was always going to be a difficult case when two people are inebriated and trying to recall events and timelines.
> Hopefully those who drove Brittany to the issues she has now, feel suitably ashamed IMO.




Judge only trials seem to be the way to go, there are some poor souls on juries who have no idea what is going on.


----------



## wayneL (3 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Judge only trials seem to be the way to go, there are some poor souls on juries who have no idea what is going on.



Met many judges?


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, in todays SMH.
The media can hopefully continue on with their allegations, time will tell, they obviously think that he requires further court appearances.
I can see some very big compensation claims coming, if the media can't back up their allegations.









						Media alleged that Bruce Lehrmann assaulted other women: court
					

It can also now be revealed Brittany Higgins had taken a week off from giving evidence during the trial in October due to a mental health crisis.




					www.smh.com.au
				



A court judgment has revealed that the media had previously alleged that Bruce Lehrmann assaulted other women, after a high-profile rape trial against him was dropped over grave fears for Brittany Higgins’ mental health.


----------



## basilio (3 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, in todays SMH.
> The media can hopefully continue on with their allegations, time will tell, they obviously think that he requires further court appearances.
> I can see some very big compensation claims coming, if the media can't back up their allegations.
> 
> ...




Previous allegations against Bruce Lehrmann  for similar behaviour were  reported.  He had form.
These couldn't have been referred to in the trial nor could the reports have been brought up again in the months before the trial.

Anyway he hasn't been found guilty in a court of law.   Whatever that means...









						Were young women sexually assaulted when Bruce Lehrmann, the alleged parliament house rapist, was an official at the ANU UN conference?Kangaroo Court of Australia
					

Bruce Lehrmann, the alleged parliament house rapist, was an official at the Australian National University (ANU) NCMUN annual conference in 2016 which was the year before new sexual assault and sex…




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

basilio said:


> Previous allegations against Bruce Lehrmann  for similar behaviour were  reported.  He had form.
> These couldn't have been referred to in the trial nor could the reports have been brought up again in the months before the trial.
> 
> Anyway he hasn't been found guilty in a court of law.   Whatever that means...
> ...



That's an interesting article, a lot of innuendo, one wonders with the body of information presented why he isn't taken in for further questioning.
Like I said, I think it will be all tested in the form of a compensation claim, time will tell.

From your article, there should be a body of information as to the veracity of the accusations:
There are now four investigations underway, in addition to the AFP inquiry, including into which staffers in the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) had knowledge of the assault allegation.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Met many judges?




No , have you ?

In any case, a judges judgement can be more easily challenged than a juries, which essentially comes down to whether a judge instructed the jury properly.

Any point the judge makes in his written judgement can be challenged on appeal which makes it a more open process imo.


----------



## basilio (3 December 2022)

These are the newspaper reports of the other incidents involving Bruce Leherman. 
Yes the women made statements and stat decs. But whether these would ever be enough to convince a police prosecutor to go to trial is another matter. And it would be hard to offer any further evidence.  









						Third woman alleges she was sexually assaulted by same man accused of raping Brittany Higgins
					

A third woman alleges she was sexually assaulted by the same former federal government advisor accused of raping former Liberal staffer Brittany Higgins.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						PM 'upset' to learn of second rape claim against man accused by Brittany Higgins
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison says he is "upset" to read reports that a second woman was allegedly raped by the same man accused of sexually assaulting former Liberals staffer Brittany Higgins.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

basilio said:


> These are the newspaper reports of the other incidents involving Bruce Leherman.
> Yes the women made statements and stat decs. But whether these would ever be enough to convince a police prosecutor to go to trial is another matter. And it would be hard to offer any further evidence.
> 
> 
> ...



Until something goes to court it is just accusations, the timing and reporting of the accusations becomes very relevant as to the credibility of the accusations and is why judgement is best left to professionals.
If the reports and stat decs were done in a timely manner, with regard to the said incident, it would carry a lot more credibility than if it was made when the Higgins case appeared in the public arena.
There would be a lot of investigating of the incidents, when you consider the high profile and number of people actually investigating Leherman.
There are people who claim responsibility for unsolved murders, yet charges aren't laid, because the said person couldn't have been the perpetrator. But should we throw them in jail anyway, if the media report that the person owned up to it?

It will also be interesting to see if he makes a compensation claim, in light of the current situation and loosing his job.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Until something goes to court it is just accusations, the timing and reporting of the accusations becomes very relevant as to the credibility of the accusations and is why judgement is best left to professionals.
> If the reports and stat decs were done in a timely manner, with regard to the said incident, it would carry a lot more credibility than if it was made when the Higgins case appeared in the public arena.
> There would be a lot of investigating of the incidents, when you consider the high profile and number of people actually investigating Leherman.
> There are people who claim responsibility for unsolved murders, yet charges aren't laid, because the said person couldn't have been the perpetrator. But should we throw them in jail anyway, if the media report that the person owned up to it?
> ...



He has a history. If I were an opposition minister I would hesitate hiring him. Plenty of other young blood around. They can sack him for what happened without the rape. He won't get nuffin!


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> He has a history. If I were an opposition minister I would hesitate hiring him. Plenty of other young blood around. They can sack him for what happened without the rape. He won't get nuffin!



Again, as with Bas, you are sure he actually did rape all three ladies. But on what do you base that?
Because Brittany took him to court and two other women who knew him then came forward and said he also raped them, when they went out for dinner and drinks?
If people can be convicted on that basis, the criminal system isn't working.
There are several people on the forum, who said Israel Falau would get nothing, time will tell.
I would be shocked, if he doesn't pursue compensation, if he did nothing wrong and it was vindictive persecution, I would be very surprised if he didn't follow it up.
Time will tell, if he does nuffin, or does something and gets nuffin.
It's certainly interesting and in many eyes he is a rapist at large, so his employment opportunities will be affected as you said you would hesitate employing him.


----------



## orr (3 December 2022)

Ahhh that memory of Gene Wilder sorting through the bad-ass's of the wild west in Mel Brookes's "Blazing Saddles"; when the 'Kid' goes over the resume' of the next in line and quieries ?? 'you've put down rape twice?...' and gets the answer ...' I like rape'


----------



## orr (3 December 2022)

What a relief.... Justice is 'served'. In fact it's been whacked out of court and the stadium.

And who wouldn't want to breath these words ;  " I'd like to introduce you the latest member of the family and my new son in law, Bruce Lehrmann"


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

orr said:


> What a relief.... Justice is 'served'. In fact it's been whacked out of court and the stadium.
> 
> And who wouldn't want to breath these words ;  " I'd like to introduce you the latest member of the family and my new son in law, Bruce Lehrmann"



Be careful what you wish for, another one from blazing saddles was when the racist sheriff, used the black guy as a hostage and called him a n!gger.
These days he could be held to shame as a racist by the media and their followers, until they watched the show, for themselves. 

As for having Leherman as a son in law, I wouldn't be very happy if either my son or my daughter behaved in the manner described in proceedings.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Again, as with Bas, you are sure he actually did rape all three ladies. But on what do you base that?
> Because Brittany took him to court and two other women who knew him then came forward and said he also raped them, when they went out for dinner and drinks?
> If people can be convicted on that basis, the criminal system isn't working.
> There are several people on the forum, who said Israel Falau would get nothing, time will tell.
> ...



I just said he had a history, he obviously doesn't get on well with the Liberal women in his office.

He won't get his job back with the Liberal Party. I can't see him going to court and have 3 women rock up against him. I didn't realise 2 others also accused him. I just heard he had a habit of feeding women drinks till they couldn't remember what happened.

Anyway to sack him they just have to show he illegally accessed the offices for non work reasons. On camera, open and shut case.


----------



## bk1 (3 December 2022)

basilio said:


> Anyway he hasn't been found guilty in a court of law. Whatever that means...




A court of law is all we have.
Unless you propose a Committee of Public Safety, a Star Chamber, a Central Committee, all staffed by goodthinkers just like you


----------



## basilio (3 December 2022)

There are  squillions of people who have committed illegal actions who never get interviewed let alone  charged  or convicted. That is just the way of the world.  To pretend otherwise is a nonsense.

Sexual assaults, particularly by people in positions of power, are the classic case. They are always very hard  to prove.  When people have enough money, power and  ruthlessness they will usually get away with it.

Bruce Leherman is small fry. Just a wanna be politician who seems to have a knack for finding drunk woman who just can't say no to his charms. The big guys in this story are the Liberal political heavyweights who  desperately wanted to bury this sordid little story before the stench permeated the whole leadership of the party. That is what political power is all about.

Anyway I'm a great believer in karma.


----------



## basilio (3 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> There are people who claim responsibility for unsolved murders, yet charges aren't laid, because the said person couldn't have been the perpetrator



That's a* real* red herring  SP.  You must be aware (and if not listen up..)  that big  murder cases inevitably drag up people who "confess" to the crime.  Lot's of strange reasons. Police  have to be very careful that they don't get sucked into such scenarios. But that is just the out and out crazies.

However there are also many cases of people confessing to crimes they didn't commit.  Why ? Check it out.









						Why Do So Many People Confess to Crimes They Didn’t Commit?
					

From: Vice By Samuel Gross and Maurice Possley This story was co-published with the Marshall Project. “You have the right to remain silent.” If you’ve ever watched any of the tens…




					wrongfulconvictionsblog.org


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I just said he had a history, he obviously doesn't get on well with the Liberal women in his office.



Which begs the reason, why would one of the girls even think to be alone with him, while paraletic.



Knobby22 said:


> He won't get his job back with the Liberal Party. I can't see him going to court and have 3 women rock up against him. I didn't realise 2 others also accused him. I just heard he had a habit of feeding women drinks till they couldn't remember what happened.



The two others, may well have had sex with him, who knows?
But when they have to prove it was criminal rape, as opposed to just sex, in a court of law it may well make them think carefully.
There is probably many a rampant alcohol induced night of regret, many of us would rather forget.
To change that into rape, jail and a criminal conviction, is another matter.

Maybe there actually does need to be an App, as has been suggested, consensual sex, swipe left, swipe right.
But I think that was shouted down from memory, because if the person was unconscious, it could be frauded.
Maybe put a PIN number attached to it, because ATM if someone wants to say it was rape, it seems as though the onus is on the person to prove it wasn't and that is extremely difficult when it is one word against another IMO.



Knobby22 said:


> Anyway to sack him they just have to show he illegally accessed the offices for non work reasons. On camera, open and shut case.



That is very true and correct, but confusing the two issues is another thing.


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

basilio said:


> That's a* real* red herring  SP.  You must be aware (and if not listen up..)  that big  murder cases inevitably drag up people who "confess" to the crime.  Lot's of strange reasons. Police  have to be very careful that they don't get sucked into such scenarios. But that is just the out and out crazies.
> 
> However there are also many cases of people confessing to crimes they didn't commit.  Why ? Check it out.
> 
> ...



Are you saying that all rape cases are bonafide, therefore all rape cases should be just adjudicated, as guilty as accused?
Well if that is the case, it should be treated as a minimum incarseration, if a woman walks into a police station and says I was raped by so and so, he should be instantly incarcerated for a minimum term.
Why bother with the court system?
But obviously your logic thinks that is the way to go.


----------



## wayneL (3 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Are you saying that all rape cases are bonafide, therefore all rape cases should be just adjudicated, as guilty as accused?
> Well if that is the case, it should be treated as a minimum incarseration, if a woman walks into a police station and says I was raped by so and so, he should be instantly incaserated for a minimum term.
> Why bother with the court system?
> But obviously your logic thinks that is the way to go.



Only if they're LNP


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Only if they're LNP



Don't get me wrong, if it was rape, he should be put in the slammer and the key thrown away.
But if you are going to base all your evidence and assumptions on what the media tells you, it just shows how far we have fallen IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2022)

basilio said:


> There are  squillions of people who have committed illegal actions who never get interviewed let alone  charged  or convicted. That is just the way of the world.  To pretend otherwise is a nonsense.
> 
> Sexual assaults, particularly by people in positions of power, are the classic case. They are always very hard  to prove.  When people have enough money, power and  ruthlessness they will usually get away with it.
> 
> ...



Actually Bas, you will find the majority of sexual abuse is carried out by family members, or close friends, but don't let your political bias get in the way of your political rant.
Being obsessive compulsive, also leads itself to strange behavioral traits, just by the way.


----------



## wayneL (4 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Don't get me wrong, if it was rape, he should be put in the slammer and the key thrown away.
> But if you are going to base all your evidence and assumptions on what the media tells you, it just shows how far we have fallen IMO.



Agreed, I'd go further, fair dinkum rape is an awful thing with long term effects for the victim.

And it is unfortunate, terrible actually, that the alleged victim must suffer an inquisition. 

But considering the punishment, (which should be bloody severe), we need to be sure.

Also, I'd differentiate between rape and regret.

Advice to women... don't get rat-arsed.

Advice to men... don't get rat-arsed.

Having nookie is a pretty serious thing and one should have their faculties about them.

I'd shy away from the app idea which makes it all rather transactional... I think I'd wilt like a bank of faded geraniums, if it ever got to that


----------



## sptrawler (4 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Agreed, I'd go further, fair dinkum rape is an awful thing with long term effects for the victim.
> 
> And it is unfortunate, terrible actually, that the alleged victim must suffer an inquisition.
> 
> ...



Absolutely agree, I never shagged any lady I wouldn't have married, these days that seems the furthest thing from both parties minds.
Just watch the adverts for the shows on T.V, farmer wants a root, grab a bachelorette, or a bachelor or any other pick a bloke or a girl and have a rip roaring time.
But beware, that isn't real life, don't try it at home, it is carried out in a controlled environment by professional spunks.


----------



## sptrawler (4 December 2022)

Just to point out how weird things are getting these days, this article in today's SMH.
When will the first court case involving this happen OMG.









						Strangulation during sex has been ‘mainstreamed’ but risks brain damage, experts warn
					

What is colloquially called ‘choking’ during sex is increasingly seen as normal by many young people, experts say, but they are unaware of the risks of brain damage or delayed stroke.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe social media should have to follow the same standards as MSM when it comes to commenting on court cases.



In general I'm firmly in the "free speech" camp but when it comes to an actual court case I think it's reasonable to apply some restrictions yes. If a proper process is underway to get to the truth then it's not for anyone to mess with it.


----------



## basilio (4 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Actually Bas, you will find the majority of sexual abuse is carried out by family members, or close friends, but don't let your political bias get in the way of your political rant.
> Being obsessive compulsive, also leads itself to strange behavioral traits, just by the way.




Lets step back a bit shall we  ?  If we want to have a serious discussion I mean.

Yes the majority of sexual abuse is carried out by family members. Not to mention clergy, scout leaders, movie stars,  pop stars, people running institutions like child protection sectors, even jails. Clearly awful and frankly largely hidden/ignored for ages.  Would we  agree that it has been only relatively recently that the reality of this abuse has been acknowledged  and acted upon ? Would we agree that most of the time no one would believe such accusations  because of the relative positions of the child and the adult ?

But that wasn't the topic of discussion in this case.  The issue was what appeared to be an opportunistic  sexual assault on a woman who got ratfaced. The other overarching issue I suggest was the political angle where the Liberal Government wanted to bury this issue because of the political embarrassment it would cause  them.  This was the case when it arose in 2019 and then later on.

I raised the issue that the most recent spate of sexual assault scandals has been when powerful figures  ie movie directors, politcians, media personalities use their position to get their way with people. In the way of the world, power, money, who gets believed, who can hurt you the most,  people who have been squeezed  do end up shutting up. The  legal system has historically made it very hard to get justice in the majority of cases that don't fit the "proper" rape narrative.  ( Savage rape, by a brutal assailant of innocent girl. Often severely attacked if not killed.)

My experience has been extensive.  Many friends have told me of  date rape experiences, childhood sexual abuse, sexual power plays in work situations. The lot. Very few were able to take legal action.

On the other side of the coin I can also relate four  other situations I am aware of. All are husbands who have been accused of abusing their  children and/or raping abusing their partner. In all cases I'm quite certain (with plenty of evidence)  these allegations are malicious lies made with the intention of gaining total access to children and the family assets.  These allegations have only ever  been made as statements to police and or Family Courts. There was  no opportunity to investigate or ask for evidence. Unfortunately the Family Law situation as it stands seems to allow such  cynical opportunistic behaviour.   This is xxxt.


----------



## basilio (4 December 2022)

If you want to see two sides of the picture around the  behaviour of  big name media people to women this story is worth considering

‘Being heard is better than being seen’: supermodel Paulina Porizkova on living ‘unfiltered’​Eva Wiseman





‘I’m not precious about my secrets. I guard other people’s, but you can have all of mine’: Paulina Porizkova, at home in New York City. Photograph: Ali Smith/The Observer
Paulina Porizkova, one of the great supermodels of the 80s, has refound fame – as ‘the lady who cries on Instagram’. It began with the death of and betrayal by her husband of 30 years

Moving through a room as a teenage supermodel when she first came to New York, mouths would drop, drinks would appear, eyes would spring out of sockets as if from a cartoon cat. In one chatshow appearance I watched on YouTube, from 1994, the radio personality Howard Stern spontaneously undressed in front of her. Trousers, shirt, everything.

...... It was on her fourth booking as a model – she would have been in her mid-teens – when the photographer approached as she was having her makeup done and rested his penis on her shoulder. As the makeup artist rolled her eyes, she realised this was, “My new normal. I quickly assumed it was part of the job and I wasn’t wrong.” She wrote about the experience not because it was unusual, but because it was ordinary. “It was a freaking everyday occurrence! That was just the first time it happened. We got really good at fending off sexual harassment by making a joke of it, because you can’t insult the guy’s ego – that’s really important, he’ll never book you again. You learn all these little manipulations as a young girl.” When her peers had breakdowns and went home, she “wasn’t particularly empathic. Because I thought, ‘Well, why can’t you fend them off like I do? And why are you taking it so personally?’ But, I was a child. I was a child!”

Watching the fashion industry crack under the weight of #MeToo, at first “felt incredibly rewarding. Everybody in the business knows the same creeps, so it was kind of beautiful. A victorious moment of validation.” But: “Then some accusations came against people I liked. And that’s where things got interesting, that conflict in me. I felt like, ‘He did that to me, too, but we laughed when I told him to xuck off. So he’s not a bad guy, right?’ There was some moral wrangling I had to do.” She winces.









						‘Being heard is better than being seen’: supermodel Paulina Porizkova on living ‘unfiltered’
					

Paulina Porizkova, one of the great supermodels of the 80s, has refound fame – as ‘the lady who cries on Instagram’. It began with the death of and betrayal by her husband of 30 years




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (4 December 2022)

That's a very thorough and accurate description of the history of sexual abuse Bas, probably worthy of its own thread.


----------



## basilio (4 December 2022)

The political pressures at work with the  Brittany Higgins allegations.
‘Right to be scared’: Brittany Higgins and the harsh realities about justice and power​Former Liberal staffer’s experience after alleging she was raped is an insight into how powerful institutions react when confronted with such allegations








						‘Right to be scared’: Brittany Higgins and the harsh realities about justice and power
					

Former Liberal staffer’s experience after alleging she was raped is an insight into how powerful institutions react when confronted with such allegations




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (4 December 2022)

Brittany Higgins thanks supporters after Lehrmann trial aborted
					

Brittany Higgins has made her first public statement since the retrial of Bruce Lehrmann was aborted and charges against him dropped.




					www.smh.com.au
				












						Brittany Higgins breaks her silence after rape trial abandoned
					

Former Liberal staffer Brittany Higgins has taken to Instagram to reiterate the statement she made outside court after the first rape trial she was a complainant in was abandoned due to a juror.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				



From the article:

Brittany Higgins could receive up to $1million compensation over rape trial
She will seek compensation for lost and future earnings and at-home support


Man originally charged with her alleged rape, Bruce Lehrmann, to seek a payout

Brittany Higgins could receive up to $1million in compensation as the former Liberal staffer broke her silence days after the sexual assault case she was a complainant in was sensationally abandoned.

Mr Lehrmann is also seeking cash compensation, with his lawyers considering a Comcare claim, defamation action against media outlets, and unfair dismissal from the jobs he lost after the rape allegations emerged.


----------



## wayneL (4 December 2022)

Some great points @basilio 

But I don't think it's serves the issue very well to focus so much on Brittany Higgins per se, as is seems to have become a point of political division, rather a focus on the greater issue.


----------



## basilio (4 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Some great points @basilio
> 
> But I don't think it's serves the issue very well to focus so much on Brittany Higgins per se, as is seems to have become a point of political division, rather a focus on the greater issue.



This is a thread about Australian politics.  The Brittany Higgins case is multifacted.  But it is such a big case because she was Liberal Party employee who alleged another Liberal Party employee raped her in the offices of her boss in Parliament House. And since that time the then party in power moved heaven and earth to close down investigation of the alleged encounter.

This is the overriding political issue in this case.  Yes it intersects with the other elements of abuse and these will be highlighted. But what will come to light in the fullness of time is the machinations  that happened around protecting the Morrison government by attempts to simply bury Brittany Higgins.


----------



## wayneL (4 December 2022)

basilio said:


> This is a thread about Australian politics.  The Brittany Higgins case is multifacted.  But it is such a big case because she was Liberal Party employee who alleged another Liberal Party employee raped her in the offices of her boss in Parliament House. And since that time the then party in power moved heaven and earth to close down investigation of the alleged encounter.
> 
> This is the overriding political issue in this case.  Yes it intersects with the other elements of abuse and these will be highlighted. But what will come to light in the fullness of time is the machinations  that happened around protecting the Morrison government by attempts to simply bury Brittany Higgins.




Sure, but there is still a greater issue of politicians in general. For instance, why was the Shorten issue never really pursued?

It's not just a liberal party thing.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> why was the Shorten issue never really pursued?




Because there was no evidence ?


----------



## mullokintyre (5 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Because there was no evidence ?



Exactly. The police interviewed both parties, and established (at least back then ) that there was insufficient evidence to convict.
At not stage did any of the media , the feminists, the #metoo movement etc etc raise the  "poor treatment of women in  rape cases". 
She has received no publicity, no sympathetic interviews, no high profile legal women at her side to help her,  and is in fact invisible.
What is the difference between the two cases?
Politics.
Mick


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## IFocus (5 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Exactly. The police interviewed both parties, and established (at least back then ) that there was insufficient evidence to convict.
> At not stage did any of the media , the feminists, the #metoo movement etc etc raise the  "poor treatment of women in  rape cases".
> She has received no publicity, no sympathetic interviews, no high profile legal women at her side to help her,  and is in fact invisible.
> What is the difference between the two cases?
> ...




Did it happen in Parliament house?


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2022)

IFocus said:


> Did it happen in Parliament house?



From the court case, it would appear not.
Not that rape is excusable anyware IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Exactly. The police interviewed both parties, and established (at least back then ) that there was insufficient evidence to convict.
> At not stage did any of the media , the feminists, the #metoo movement etc etc raise the  "poor treatment of women in  rape cases".
> She has received no publicity, no sympathetic interviews, no high profile legal women at her side to help her,  and is in fact invisible.
> What is the difference between the two cases?
> ...



Politics Mick, spot on.
Poor Brittany will soon be removed from the front page and the removal of Scomo from politics will again take front and centre stage, the media you have to love em, not.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 December 2022)

Meanwhile, back on policy.. Just wondering what others here think about "The Voice" ? 

I have a nasty feeling that it could be a bureaucratic nightmare that could impose itself on virtually every decision of government, Federal, State and local and could hamstring the normal processes of decision making.

And, if in the interests of the wider community, The Voice doesn't get what it wants then there will be the usual allegations of racism and how indigenous people are being continually repressed.

It could be a focal point for division rather than unity if it's not handled properly.

Maybe Jacinta Price has it right.

Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2022)

@SirRumpole, IMO you nailed it.
The road to disaster is paved with good intentions.
If laws etc need to be enacted to better facilitate the indigenous people, just enact them, they already have far more say in what can and can't be done in Australia than any other sector of the general public.
To re write the constitution IMO is going a step too far, the laughable part is no one knows what the "voice" is, or its ramifications, it is just a case of "sign this blank piece of paper we will fill in the details".
And they crucify Morrison for doing something secretively, what a hoot, Just shows how out of whack the media is IMO. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2022)

Just to tie off the Brittany Higgins case, in today's media, just shows how sad the whole saga is and such a shame it was media fodder.
Meanwhile the media circus moves on.  

Higgins's lawyers intend to launch court action against at least one MP​Lawyers for former political staffer* Brittany Higgins* intend to launch legal action against at least one Liberal minister in relation to her alleged rape inside Parliament House in 2019.

On Friday, prosecutors abandoned the criminal case against *Bruce Lehrmann* out of concern for Ms Higgins's health.



			https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/bruce-lehrmann-man-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-brittany-higgins-is-broke/news-story/1c668b4e58a335796d03a8d7e6c55cfb
		


Former Liberal staffer Bruce Lehrmann is “broke”, and was kicked off the dole during the trial because he was unable to meet Centrelink’s mutual obligation requirements while staying in Canberra.

Mr Lehrmann, who previously earned as much as $200,000 as a senior adviser when he was just 24, has been unemployed since the allegations broke in 2021.

He has however been “cutting wood” for a mate’s dad in Tasmania and searching for work and is now preparing to consider civil remedies in part to pay his legal bills.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 December 2022)

IFocus said:


> Did it happen in Parliament house?



Why does the place make any difference?
Its the event that is horrible.
The alleged rape by Shorten occurred at a Young labour conference. 
Is that not laden with politics as well?
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (5 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Meanwhile, back on policy.. Just wondering what others here think about "The Voice" ?
> 
> I have a nasty feeling that it could be a bureaucratic nightmare that could impose itself on virtually every decision of government, Federal, State and local and could hamstring the normal processes of decision making.
> 
> ...



Why are you so concerned about a talent show on Channel 7.
is it because the  proud Kuku Yalanji woman Jessica Mauboy is one of the Judges?
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (5 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Why are you so concerned about a talent show on Channel 7.
> is it because the  proud Kuku Yalanji woman Jessica Mauboy is one of the Judges?
> Mick



Never watch commie media.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Never watch commie media.



I don't watch any TV, but my wife is a big fan of "The Voice".
She tells me about it whether I want to hear it or not.  
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2022)

A bit long winded, but a barristers take on the circus, somebody had to say it and at last someone has.









						Don’t judge the legal system for sorry saga of the Lehrmann trial
					

This is a lamentable example of what happens to the justice system when the principles of prudence, discretion and sobriety of judgment are set aside in favour of publicity, politics and rank ideology.




					www.smh.com.au
				



The events surrounding the criminal allegations made by Brittany Higgins against Bruce Lehrmann are a lamentable example of what happens to the justice system when the principles of prudence, discretion and sobriety of judgment are set aside in favour of publicity, politics and rank ideology.

From the start of this sorry affair, people who should have known better have inserted themselves into the fray, usually to the great detriment of both parties. You would hope that with the conclusion of proceedings against Lehrmann, who has always maintained his innocence, this practice would have slowed. If anything, it has quickened. All the while, Higgins has suffered a serious decline in her mental health in circumstances that can only be described as tragic.
Consider the remarks of ACT Director of Public Prosecutions Shane Drumgold, SC. On announcing the charge against Lehrmann was to be dropped, Drumgold praised the “bravery, grace and dignity” of Higgins, and asked that she be given time “to heal” after facing “a level of personal attack that I’ve not seen in over 20 years of doing this work”.
While this may be true, there is a serious question as to whether it is appropriate for a DPP, who has a duty to the administration of justice rather than to individual complainants, to make public remarks of this kind. Drumgold said nothing of the presumption of innocence or whether Lehrmann may also need time “to heal”. Nor should he have. And that is the point.

And what of the substance of Drumgold’s observations? Has he ever seen a sexual assault complainant consciously eschew the protection of anonymity that is legally available to every sexual assault complainant in ACT criminal proceedings? If the answer is “no”, or “only on a very limited number of occasions”, Drumgold’s placement of Higgins’ experience on a spectrum of 20 years of practice is meaningless.
Loading
The fact is there was nothing normal about the Lehrmann trial, which occurred under a glare of unceasing publicity. Such matters are invariably tried in conditions of anonymity, which is a statutory right afforded to the complainant.
There have been other public servants whose conduct in relation to these matters has been questionable. Scott Morrison’s notorious parliamentary apology to Higgins plumbed a new depth. Whatever political advantage Morrison perceived, the potential prejudice that could have been occasioned to a fair trial by a person of the prime minister’s stature in making a comment of this kind, before a jury was even empanelled, is impossible to miss.
This occurred against the backdrop of alleged “political interference” in the investigation stage of the Lehrmann case, according to the ACT police manager of criminal investigations, Detective Superintendent Scott Moller (who says he would not have charged Lehrmann, but the decision was apparently taken out of his hands). This chilling allegation by a senior AFP officer warrants a full accounting of the “political interference” being referred to, particularly given the implicitly political context in which the trial unfolded.
And what of Tanya Plibersek? On the day of Drumgold’s announcement, she published the following comment on social media: “Survivors of sexual assault know that convicting perpetrators is the exception, not the rule. This has to change.”
Loading
There is enough plausible deniability in this comment to avoid the imputation that she was referring directly to Higgins and Lehrmann, but only just. And there is enough ambiguity in the comment to delight a receptive crowd without the inconvenience of condescending to a serious policy discussion.
Is she calling for law reform? If so, what precisely is she suggesting given the strong procedural protections that are now offered to sexual assault complainants in criminal prosecutions? Perhaps an erosion of the criminal standard of proof which has been the cornerstone of civilised society for centuries? As a minister of the Crown, Plibersek might humour the public by explaining exactly what she meant.
Perhaps at the same time she might also use her public reach to explain that, aside from the legal availability of anonymity to all sexual assault complainants, such persons may never need to set foot in a courtroom at all – as a statutory starting point, such evidence is given from a remote witness facility.

And before we grant an audience to ambiguous calls for “change”, the public ought to be reminded that Higgins’ experience is not the experience of sexual assault complainants generally. This is not to suggest that Higgins wasn’t perfectly entitled to take the course she took, but the public must be informed that Higgins’ name was only ever published because she specifically chose to approach the media with her allegation.
The broader point is this – superficial public utterances by persons in high office do not advance the administration of justice in any respect, and usually have the opposite effect. They do not set a foundation for legitimate discussions of law reform, which has occurred in this area by quantum leaps over recent decades in any event. Instead, they perpetuate outmoded stereotypes of our justice system and perhaps deter victims from coming forward. And there is apparently no consequence to any of it.
Lisa Wilkinson puts at risk a criminal trial in the ACT Supreme Court – and what institutional consequence have we seen for her?
Drumgold lauds the “bravery” of a person whose allegation remains unproven, immediately following the execution of his duty as a detached Crown prosecutor – and what becomes of that?

Higgins delivers a speech on the courthouse steps impugning the criminal justice system while a prosecution is on foot in which she is the complainant – who makes the decision as to whether she will be prosecuted for contempt; Drumgold?
Morrison uses parliamentary privilege ahead of a highly publicised criminal trial – where is the consequence for that?
And cabinet minister Plibersek speaks of “survivors” and “perpetrators” before the din of Drumgold’s press conference has even died down.
A rot has taken hold at the core of our institutions. But it has nothing to do with the state of the law, and everything to do with the fealty of our public officials to the time-honoured principles upon which our society was built. Worse, there appears to be a total lack of consequence and accountability when there may be cause to investigate whether those principles have been hung out to dry. If you want to talk about change, that would be an excellent place to start.


----------



## moXJO (5 December 2022)

Higgins case is a bit fishy. 
She told some lies and wouldn't produce a phone that potentially had recoverable data on it. 

Lehrmann meanwhile hasn't said anything and allegedly has form. 

I'm glad the court rules on evidence as this was a tough case.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 December 2022)

The politics.
Brittany Higgins is seen to be having fun with labour Luminaries at the MArch4Justice.
Mick


----------



## PZ99 (5 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> View attachment 150139
> 
> 
> The politics.
> ...



I'll take that over the "Ditch the Witch" rally any day of the week thankyouverymuch


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A rot has taken hold at the core of our institutions. But it has nothing to do with the state of the law, and everything to do with the fealty of our public officials to the time-honoured principles upon which our society was built. Worse, there appears to be a total lack of consequence and accountability when there may be cause to investigate whether those principles have been hung out to dry. If you want to talk about change, that would be an excellent place to start.



This applies to a lot of things unfortunately.

Whilst this relates to a legal case, the same could be said for everything from transport planning in the cities to water management in the regions to housing to energy to banking.

None of this stuff should be exciting or interesting to the general public, indeed if it ever does get exciting and of mainstream interest then that's because something has gone drastically wrong. It's stuff that happens out of sight with rather boring things being done, investigated and so on. It only properly gets a mention when there's some major decision to announce and that's not a regular occurrence. 

All our institutions are at least somewhat compromised and degraded at this point. Even the ones that really should be well beyond being interfered with such as courts and universities are under serious pressure.

For those with an interest in any particular area it's easy to think that it only affects that area. It's easy to think that it's only about the media and court trials or it's only about banking standards or it's only about the power grid or it's only about universities and censorship. And so on. In truth it's all of them, all have been meddled with and compromised in some way.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's stuff that happens out of sight with rather boring things being done, investigated and so on. It only properly gets a mention when there's some major decision to announce and that's not a regular occurrence.




Yes, like residential buildings suddenly developing cracks and becoming uninhabitable.

That only came to light in one or two buildings, but how many more are out there ?


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, like residential buildings suddenly developing cracks and becoming uninhabitable.
> 
> That only came to light in one or two buildings, but how many more are out there ?



Yes what the hell has happened with all that, now those issues are the issues the general public get useful information from, that helps them make better choices.
Unless it was built by a politician, the media don't give a $hit, why haven't any of them followed up on that Opal towers and the other multi story buildings that had faults.
Too hard easier just to make up a political issue then run with it until circulation drops then start up another one, wash rinse repeat.
Life was so much better when politicians just quietly got on with running the country and if the plebs were doing o.k life was good, if not the Govt got flipped.
Now we have to have every political toilet break, every political comment made in the Chinese press, every politician that passes wind in parliament get about three days coverage FFS.
We don't have smart enough journalists to run 30 minute a day news, without the ridiculous 24/7 $hit, they are trying to call news.

Just thought I would google opal towers news, this is what came up: 23/07/2021.








						Watchdog orders more defects to be fixed in Sydney’s Opal Tower
					

The orders were issued after inspectors found incorrectly fitted shades on the tower’s facade and fire-safety problems.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Wouldn't you think the ABC, publicly funded, could bother their ar$e to keep the public informed?
Obviously that doesn't fit the narrative, must have been built by a left wing building company, or the damage might only be on the right.  🤣
Maybe nobody from the elite areas bought into Opal Towers.
My rant for the week, thanks for the ammo @SirRumpole .


----------



## moXJO (6 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, like residential buildings suddenly developing cracks and becoming uninhabitable.
> 
> That only came to light in one or two buildings, but how many more are out there ?



As someone that was doing inspections  I can say "a lot".


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2022)

moXJO said:


> As someone that was doing inspections  I can say "a lot".



And how much has been said in the media?


----------



## PZ99 (7 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, like residential buildings suddenly developing cracks and becoming uninhabitable.
> 
> That only came to light in one or two buildings, but how many more are out there ?



Let's say... 90% of apartment blocks in NSW built over the last 20 years


----------



## mullokintyre (7 December 2022)

Meanwhile, the Greens once more demonstrate a level of hypocrisy that only a politician can espouse.
From the evil Murdoch Empire


> The Greens have accepted a significant donation from a pastoral company backed by one of South Africa’s richest men, despite saying they “don’t take donations from big corporations” and that “billionaires have too much power over politicians”.
> 
> Rallen Australia Pty Ltd and its property arm Amanzi Property Group Pty Ltd donated a total of $29,000 to the Greens last financial year.
> 
> ...



Yeah right. SHY goes into to bat for a South African millionaire in the senate hearings, but of course was unawre that his company had donated $29,000 to the greens. Why on earth would a pastoral company that wanted  to explore for gas be giving money to the greens unless there was some quid pro quo?
And why would the greens seek to defend someone who was wanting to develop NT gas?
As usual, just follow the money.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Meanwhile, the Greens once more demonstrate a level of hypocrisy that only a politician can espouse.
> From the evil Murdoch Empire
> 
> Yeah right. SHY goes into to bat for a South African millionaire in the senate hearings, but of course was unawre that his company had donated $29,000 to the greens. Why on earth would a pastoral company that wanted  to explore for gas be giving money to the greens unless there was some quid pro quo?
> ...




And we thought that the Greens were Snow White.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2022)

Good to see that the new Government is taking up, where the last Govt left off, rather than taking another tack.









						Australia and the US talk China, nuclear-powered submarines and a 'very cool-looking' $1b aircraft
					

Foreign Minister Penny Wong and Defence Minister Richard Marles meet their US counterparts in Washington, discussing the rise of China in the Pacific as well as Australia's defence "capability gap".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (8 December 2022)

The greens continue to come up with some brilliant ideas.
from
One of the arguments put forward is that 16 year olds pay tax.
Corporations and other non human entities also pay tax, but they do not get the right to vote.
But leaving that aside,  I am not sure  how many 16 year olds actually pay tax , but if we accept the premise that paying tax  allows one to vote, then does the opposite apply?
Namely if people do not pay taxes, should they be allowed to vote?
just putting it out there.
Mick


----------



## PZ99 (8 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The greens continue to come up with some brilliant ideas.
> from
> One of the arguments put forward is that 16 year olds pay tax.
> Corporations and other non human entities also pay tax, but they do not get the right to vote.
> ...




Some good points there... I guess it's fair to say that whenever someone purchases goods/services they're paying tax so that would cover the vast majority of the population... if that's supposed to be the main attribute for voting rights. _(Or in this case Lefts lol)_

I don't see any difference between 16 and 18 when it comes to awareness of current affairs.

On one hand the Greens will push for 16 if they feel that will attract more Green votes 
One the other hand someone who was 17 last year can't vote again until they're 20.

I would go for voluntary voting for over 16's and compulsory voting after 18 as a compromise


----------



## The Triangle (8 December 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Some good points there... I guess it's fair to say that whenever someone purchases goods/services they're paying tax so that would cover the vast majority of the population... if that's supposed to be the main attribute for voting rights. _(Or in this case Lefts lol)_
> 
> I don't see any difference between 16 and 18 when it comes to awareness of current affairs.
> 
> ...



Do the supporters of youth voting support youth getting tried in adult courts when they commit crimes?  16-year-old voting age is another political hypocrisy like my body is my choice if you are right and talking about vaccine or left and talking about abortion.  

Sometimes I think we should raise the voting age to 21.  My views after 1-2 years of being full time employed, paying my own bills, and doing my tax returns certainly shifted from the age of 16 and 18.   Western society doesn't produce a mature adult at 18.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Do the supporters of youth voting support youth getting tried in adult courts when they commit crimes?  16-year-old voting age is another political hypocrisy like my body is my choice if you are right and talking about vaccine or left and talking about abortion.
> 
> Sometimes I think we should raise the voting age to 21.  My views after 1-2 years of being full time employed, paying my own bills, and doing my tax returns certainly shifted from the age of 16 and 18.   Western society doesn't produce a mature adult at 18.



I think 25 would be a better age for a number of reasons, but alas, that ain't likely to happen.


----------



## PZ99 (8 December 2022)

Yeah nah... youth unemployment is higher than other age groups so these people are more affected by Govt policy yet they have to wait until they're in their 20's to vote ? Nup.

16 for me...  couldn't care less about the spurious connection with vaccines or abortion.


----------



## The Triangle (8 December 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Yeah nah... youth unemployment is higher than other age groups so these people are more affected by Govt policy yet they have to wait until they're in their 20's to vote ? Nup.
> 
> 16 for me...  couldn't care less about the spurious connection with vaccines or abortion.




6-year-olds are impacted by government policy let's give them a vote too, right?  Immigrants on work visas are very heavily impacted by government policy, let them vote?  Prisoners?  Entirely dependent on a government policy.  Should they all get to vote?  China is dependent on our government policy.  Let's let them vote too in our elections.


----------



## PZ99 (8 December 2022)

The Triangle said:


> 6-year-olds are impacted by government policy let's give them a vote too, right?  Immigrants on work visas are very heavily impacted by government policy, let them vote?  Prisoners?  Entirely dependent on a government policy.  Should they all get to vote?  China is dependent on our government policy.  Let's let them vote too in our elections.



That response has just convinced me that 16 year olds should be allowed to vote. Thanks.

PS: Next time you think about raising the voting age to 21 think about how much of an insult that is given the very right to vote in this country was bought, fought and paid for by our soldiers many of who were under 21.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2022)

The Triangle said:


> 6-year-olds are impacted by government policy let's give them a vote too, right?  Immigrants on work visas are very heavily impacted by government policy, let them vote?  Prisoners?  Entirely dependent on a government policy.  Should they all get to vote?  China is dependent on our government policy.  Let's let them vote too in our elections.



Yeahbut... Stupid 16 year olds I likely to vote greens...


----------



## mullokintyre (8 December 2022)

The Brittany Higgs affair  has become more and more a manipulation by  the team Brittany.
Despite not being in sufficient mental state to go through a retrial, she has stated that she will take the stand in support of anyone sued by her alleged rapist bruce Lehrman.
Because of the statute of Limitations , Higgins was unable to sue her former employers, Senators Cash and  Reynolds and the fedral government unless she had filed papers prior to March 2022. 
For reasons that escape me, Senator Reynolds agreed to waive the time limit till Dec 6th, and Cash and the Commonwealth until February.
Reynolds wanted the accusations tested in court so she could her version of events, but events have overtaken.
From Evil Murdoch press


> Former defence minister Linda Reynolds won’t be able to contest any allegations brought by Brittany Higgins against her in court, as the former Liberal staffer pursues mediation to settle a civil claim against the commonwealth.
> 
> Ms Higgins is set to head to mediation next Tuesday in a bid to reach an out-of-court settlement with the commonwealth.
> 
> ...



It looks like the two senators have been out lawyered.
The federal government was always going to waiver its rights right to the time limit, its great politics, keeps the limelight on the opposition, and makes them look among the metoo set.
As for the two senators, maybe  they foolishly thought that by waiving the time limit. they would get some brownie points.
fat chance.
So, I am going to bet that in the mediation process, a compliant Federal government will  say that the previous federal government  behaved appallingly, offer a payoff for a tidy sum to MS Higgins (and of course her lawyers), and she will walk away without anything even being revealed to the public, and Reynolds and Cash will be left high and dry.
A cynic would suggest that it was all planned this way.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 December 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Do the supporters of youth voting support youth getting tried in adult courts when they commit crimes?



I'll argue they all ought be the same.

If you're old enough to make an informed choice voting in an election then you're also old enough to make informed choices in regard to:

Leaving school or continuing your education.

Entering any contract.

Consent (in regards to sex).

Marriage.

Use of any legal drug most notably alcohol and tobacco.

Owning shares, running a business etc.

Driving.

To be treated as an adult in the context of any legal proceeding and consequences thereof.

They're an adult in the context of accessing welfare of any sort, making medical decisions and so on.

And so on. If there's a valid argument that someone isn't mature enough to be doing any of the above then really, they're not mature enough to be doing _any_ of them including voting. 

It's a bit hard to argue that someone's mature enough to choose the future of the country but they're not mature enough to consent to sex or to drink alcohol.

Bearing in mind that I don't have a firm view on what age that ought be, only that either someone's an adult or they're not. I dislike double standards of someone being an adult in one context but regarded as a child in another.  

Noting that I don't advocate that anyone do some of the things I've mentioned but the point's about maturity and personal choice.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2022)

Leave the voting age at 18. 

It's only two years and there will be more wisdom gained in two years. Studies show that the human brain matures at about 25, but that's too long to wait.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Brittany Higgs affair  has become more and more a manipulation by  the team Brittany.











						Police union calls for inquiry into Lehrmann case after prosecutor alleges interference
					

The federal police union has accused the ACT’s chief prosecutor of smearing the force.




					www.smh.com.au
				












						Leaked email claims Lehrmann case prosecutor did not consult police before releasing FOI
					

The leaking of the ACT police chief’s email underscores the dramatic deterioration in the relationship between ACT police and the public prosecutor’s office.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## IFocus (9 December 2022)

Talking about maturity at least for males according to some psychologists is around 42... know lots of 60 + years that failed the exam


----------



## SirRumpole (10 December 2022)

PZ99 said:


> Let's say... 90% of apartment blocks in NSW built over the last 20 years



Here's another one..









						'What does that mean for us?': Sydney unit owners worried as developer stripped of licence
					

Owners in the Vicinity complex in Sydney's inner west are worried a decision to strip Toplace of its building licence might have unintended consequences in their fight for remediation works.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (10 December 2022)

Well, lets hope this works.









						What we know (and don't) about PM's plan to cut power bills
					

Federal, state and territory governments will provide up to $3 billion in electricity bill relief to households and small businesses.




					thenewdaily.com.au


----------



## Macquack (10 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, lets hope this works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Subsidising privately owned utilities will not end well. 

Subsidised power bills / increased taxes / increased inflation.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 December 2022)

Macquack said:


> Subsidising privately owned utilities will not end well.
> 
> Subsidised power bills / increased taxes / increased inflation.



Ah, subsidies.
The socialist equivalent of market forces.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2022)

Interesting that the subsidies are to be paid directly to the energy retailer, rather than just to the welfare recipient, it rings of the welfare card stigma one would think they should be able to manage it.
How cumbersome will it be, when people are moving addresses etc?









						What we know (and don't) about PM's plan to cut power bills
					

Federal, state and territory governments will provide up to $3 billion in electricity bill relief to households and small businesses.




					thenewdaily.com.au
				



From the article:
It will be paid through state governments and apply at the retailer level, so that discounts are applied before bills are sent to eligible households.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2022)

Another interesting article on the issue.









						How does a price cap on gas and coal lower your power bill, in theory?
					

The federal government has announced a price cap on gas and coal to help ease the cost of energy, but how will this help to lower your power bill?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## macca (10 December 2022)

So it seems we subsidise the building of Green energy sources, this forces the price of power up, so we subsidise the cost to the consumer.

Just exactly where is all this money coming from, who is going to repay it, our Grandchildren?


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The greens continue to come up with some brilliant ideas.
> from
> One of the arguments put forward is that 16 year olds pay tax.
> Corporations and other non human entities also pay tax, but they do not get the right to vote.
> ...




Only because 16yo are so uninformed that the greens have a chance of scooping votes.
16yo don't need to vote. Majority of them don't know their arse from their elbow and yes I have a son that is 16 with a huge group of 16 yo friends. 

You would end up with fat cat entering the Senate or some dipsht influencer. Politics is a bloody circus already.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 December 2022)

macca said:


> So it seems we subsidise the building of Green energy sources, this forces the price of power up, so we subsidise the cost to the consumer.
> 
> Just exactly where is all this money coming from, who is going to repay it, our Grandchildren?




They should have taxed coal and gas exports to pay for subsidies.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> They should have taxed coal and gas exports to pay for subsidies.



don't they already have royalties?
The PRRT has existed since 1980's (see ATO


> PRRT has applied to offshore petroleum projects (except for the North West Shelf project and the Joint Petroleum Development Area) since 1987. The Bass Strait project has been subject to PRRT since 1990.
> 
> In 2012, the PRRT regime was applied to onshore petroleum projects and the North West Shelf project but not to the Joint Petroleum Development Area.
> 
> ...



State governments (WA, Queensland Victoria and NSW ) apply coal royalties as well.
So that part is already under way.
Queensland alone is expected to get nearly 6 billion of petroleum royalties over the next 5 years ( see APPEA ).
And that does not include any Company taxes paid when these entities make profits even after the royalties.
The question is, what are the various levels of government doing with that money??
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (12 December 2022)

I wonder if the Feds who are so keen on a national IBAC would be so keen if  someone from  decided to refer to it the  scenario outlined in The Evil Murdoch Press


> Annastacia Palaszczuk’s hand-picked head of Queensland’s Department of Resources publicly declared “the world needs silica sands” to help fight climate change as his staff assessed the expansion of a controversial Labor-linked sand mine proposal on Cape York.
> Mike Kaiser, a former ALP state secretary and MP, angered traditional owners who oppose further sand mining on Cape York when he posted on social media last year after a visit to the Hope Vale Aboriginal community of which he is “government champion”.
> 
> At the time, Mr Kaiser was director-general of the Department of Resources, which was then assessing three applications from silica sand mine proponent Diatreme Resources to grant new or extend existing exploration permits just near the community.
> “The world needs silica sands to make the equipment we need to fight climate change and locally that means jobs, indigenous ownership and opportunity,’’ Mr Kaiser said on his LinkedIn page in September last year.



For those who may have forgotten, Kaiser was nailed in the Shepherdson Inquiry into ALP Branch Stacking ( see Sheperdson Inquiry report ),
He was quietly reintegrated into the upper echelons of the  ALP, (see In Queensland  ), until he also became emboiled in the problems that Qld Premier has with lobbyists, particularly  after the Coldrake report was issued, and his association with KPMG.



> Within a month, two of the permit applications were granted and the third secured last month by Diatreme, which intends to supply silica for Chinese-made solar panels. Diatreme has the lead on two smaller sand mine proposals near the world’s biggest silica mine at Cape Flattery, owned by Mitsubishi, which opened in the late 1960s.
> 
> The Palaszczuk government forced the closure of Queensland’s only other sand mining operation on Stradbroke Island, off the coast of Brisbane, in 2019.
> ALP federal president and former deputy prime minister Wayne Swan was appointed Diatreme’s chairman in November last year.



Wayne Swan, the worlds greatest  Treasurer, is Chairman of the company.
The Chinese must be laughing themselves stupid over how easy it is to tie up exclusivity in resources in Australia, geez there are some governments actually encourage it.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Leave the voting age at 18.
> 
> It's only two years and there will be more wisdom gained in two years. Studies show that the human brain matures at about 25, but that's too long to wait.



Let them vote at 16 because they know what they are doing, but don't treat them as adults when they commit a crime, because they don't know what they are doing. 
Australia the land of mixed messages, especially when we talk Federal politics. 🤣 

*In the Northern Territory, Victoria, Tasmania and Queensland, children are dealt with in the adult criminal system once they turn 17*. In all other States, in the ACT and under federal criminal law all children are juveniles for the purposes of the criminal law, that is until they turn 18.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Let them vote at 16 because they know what they are doing, but don't treat them as adults when they commit a crime, because they don't know what they are doing.




If children under 17 commit a crime, it's their parents/guardians who should be in jail for not supervising them properly.


----------



## macca (13 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> If children under 17 commit a crime, it's their parents/guardians who should be in jail for not supervising them properly.




Unfortunately not possible in today's world, children have "rights" and after about 14 years they can do whatever they like.

If the parents try to discipline them the kids can go to the Dept and get money to leave home.


----------



## mullokintyre (14 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Brittany Higgs affair  has become more and more a manipulation by  the team Brittany.
> Despite not being in sufficient mental state to go through a retrial, she has stated that she will take the stand in support of anyone sued by her alleged rapist bruce Lehrman.
> Because of the statute of Limitations , Higgins was unable to sue her former employers, Senators Cash and  Reynolds and the fedral government unless she had filed papers prior to March 2022.
> For reasons that escape me, Senator Reynolds agreed to waive the time limit till Dec 6th, and Cash and the Commonwealth until February.
> ...



And right on Cue Brittanys lawyer has reached a conclusion in the mediation. The commomnwealth, on behalf of the tax payers, has reached a settlement with Ms Higgins.
of course its all confidential. No admission of liability. No admission of guilt. Just hand over an undisclosed amount.
nice work if you can get it.
mick


----------



## SirRumpole (14 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> And right on Cue Brittanys lawyer has reached a conclusion in the mediation. The commomnwealth, on behalf of the tax payers, has reached a settlement with Ms Higgins.
> of course its all confidential. No admission of liability. No admission of guilt. Just hand over an undisclosed amount.
> nice work if you can get it.
> mick




Yes, it would be interesting to know why the public purse is liable for an act between two individuals which has not been proven, at a location where the alleged participants were authorised to enter.

It's as incomprehensible as the reason that the public had to pay out for misbehaviour by Alan Tudge. It looks like Canberra is a gravy train for litigants.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2022)

Looks like the first half of the rape case is over, just need the second half and then it can be put to bed.
It has certainly been an expensive tax payer funded after work booze up IMO. 😭








						Higgins, Commonwealth reach settlement in compensation case
					

Lawyers for former Liberal staffer Brittany Higgins confirmed they have settled with the Commonwealth after launching a civil case.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:

Former Liberal staffer Brittany Higgins has settled a compensation claim with the Commonwealth after launching civil legal action.

Her legal team confirmed the parties settled the claim on Tuesday night after a day of mediation.

“At a mediation held today, the Commonwealth and Ms Higgins settled her claims,” Blumers Lawyers said in a statement.

“At the request of Ms Higgins, the parties have agreed that the terms of the settlement are confidential.”

This masthead revealed on Sunday that Higgins was seeking more than $3 million in compensation: $2.5 million for future economic loss, past economic loss approaching $100,000, general damages of $100,000, future assistance with domestic duties of some $200,000, and past and future out-of-pocket expenses of a further $150,000 approximately.


*Well almost put to bed.*
The decision by the Commonwealth to settle the case comes as ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr prepares to order a formal inquiry into the trial of Lehrmann after an extraordinary war of words erupted between the territory’s director of public prosecutions and police.

Barr said ACT Attorney-General Shane Rattenbury and the Director-General of the Justice and Community Safety Directorate briefed cabinet on Monday afternoon “regarding the issues raised by the actions of authorities involved in the Lehrmann trial”.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like the first half of the rape case is over, just need the second half and then it can be put to bed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems the public has no say in how their money is spent.


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2022)

This is why tax is theft, Horace.

The old Maxim is that taxation without representation is theft, and we truly do not have representation in any sense outside of the notional.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> This is why tax is theft, Horace.
> 
> The old Maxim is that taxation without representation is theft, and we truly do not have representation in any sense outside of the notional.



Recent history is littered with poor decisions, being covered by ridiculous Gov payments, because there is no consequence.
The real funny part is, now it is going to get worse, as the media aren't holding either party to account.
Time the ABC got off its high horse and started doing what they are actually funded for, asking questions that affect everyone, not just the purple circle of protected species.
There are heaps of issues around the reasons that the grid is collapsing, but no one wants to prick the bubble and the ABC could have a field day if they decided to do some real investigative reporting. 
Same as the NBN writing off $30b, that the telecommunication companies were meant to repay, don't follow that up because it was a brain fart to start with.
No just keep feeding the chooks. 🤣


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Recent history is littered with poor decisions, being covered by ridiculous Gov payments, because there is no consequence.
> The real funny part is, now it is going to get worse, as the media aren't holding either party to account.
> Time the ABC got off its high horse and started doing what they are actually funded for, asking questions that affect everyone, not just the purple circle of protected species.
> There are heaps of issues around the reasons that the grid is collapsing, but no one wants to prick the bubble and the ABC could have a field day if they decided to do some real investigative reporting.
> ...




Chuck in some heterodox economics, MMT etc... and the taxation/expenditure equation becomes a very interesting conversation.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Chuck in some heterodox economics, MMT etc... and the taxation/expenditure equation becomes a very interesting conversation.



I don't know what heterodox is, sounds like something you give a horse and there is no way I will look look up MMT, the missus might check my browsing history. 🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (15 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know what heterodox is, sounds like something you give a horse and there is no way I will look look up MMT, the missus might check my browsing history. 🤣



Modern Monetary Theory.









						Modern Monetary Theory - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Modern Monetary Theory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Way above my pay grade. i'm a kiss guy, that will probably cause a stir.


----------



## PZ99 (15 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Modern Monetary Theory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah well.... rising interest rates put paid to that theory didn't it ? LOL


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2022)

Hetero - different

Dox - sense

Outside what is considered orthodox.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Hetero - different
> 
> Dox - sense
> 
> Outside what is considered orthodox.



If you are ortho, then you are a square.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 December 2022)

According to The Evil Murdoch press  , the    Albanese government muzzled both Reynolds and cash , threatening their coverage of legal liability.


> The Albanese government muzzled former Liberal minister Linda Reynolds in her defence against Brittany Higgins’ multimillion-dollar lawsuit, threatening to tear up an agreement to pay her legal fees and any costs awarded unless she agreed not to attend a mediation.
> Ms Higgins reached a confidential settlement with the commonwealth, believed to be worth up to $3m, at the mediation on Tuesday over the former staffer’s claims she was not supported by Senator Reynolds or Liberal Party frontbencher Michaelia Cash after the alleged sexual assault by Bruce Lehrmann in Parliament House.
> Senator Reynolds is understood to have been determined to defend herself against Ms Higgins’ allegations but in correspondence obtained by The Australian, the commonwealth’s lawyers told her she could not take part in the mediation.
> Senator Reynolds was therefore unable to dispute any of Ms Higgins’ allegations about a failure to support her or properly investigate the incident, some of which were contested at Mr Lehrmann’s trial.
> ...



Anyone who still thinks this issue is all about seeking justice for  an alleged rape  is dreaming.
As I said, its all about the politics.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (15 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As I said, its all about the politics.



Definitely , and appearances.

If the Govt allowed the case to be contested they would be accused of putting more pressure on Brittany whose mental state is not good from all accounts.

So she gets a taxpayer payout to shut her up and get the matter off the books.

Meanwhile the taxpayer has no idea of how much she got paid or why, and Reynolds and Cash are made out to be bad girls. (They may be but at least they should be allowed to defend themselves).


----------



## mullokintyre (15 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Definitely , and appearances.
> 
> If the Govt allowed the case to be contested they would be accused of putting more pressure on Brittany whose mental state is not good from all accounts.
> 
> So she gets a taxpayer payout to shut her up and get the matter off the books.



There is no guarantee she will shut up and have it taken off the books.
Firstly, there is the book advance that that the red bandanered one organised.
Plus I can see a mini series with Tim Winton playing Bruce Lehrman, Nicole Kidman as Ms Higgins, Cate Blanchett playing  Cash,  Magda Szubanski playing Reynolds, Geoffrey Rush as Albanese,  and Eric Bana playing Morrison. Should be a winner.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> there is no way I will look look up MMT



Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl or if you prefer C9H7MnO3

Be aware that our politicians may have some difficulties with chemical formulas. Just a hunch.


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2022)

I don't want this to be political, but maybe I don't follow politics enough, but from the outside looking in it sounds like wash, rinse, repeat. 🤣 








						Government abolishes AAT, declaring its reputation has been ruined
					

One of the most notoriously politicised bodies in the Commonwealth will be overhauled, as the attorney-general seeks to end political appointments to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
One of the most notoriously politicised bodies, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, will be abolished after the attorney-general declared its reputation had been irreversibly damaged.
Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus said the former government made dozens of politicised appointments to the AAT in its time in office, and that he would end the "cronyism".
"By appointing 85 former Liberal MPs, failed Liberal candidates, former Liberal staffers and other close Liberal associates, without any merit-based selection process … the former government fatally compromised the AAT," Mr Dreyfus said.
"Australians rightly expect honesty, integrity and accountability in government."
For almost 50 years the AAT was tasked with reviewing the decisions of government, including on matters of taxation, immigration and social security.

Appointments to the AAT were made by the government of the day for terms of up to seven years, though members could be re-appointed.

Mr Dreyfus said the new body would have a merit-based process for appointing tribunal members, after he accused the former government of sometimes appointing members to review issues such as taxation despite having no expertise in the area.

Accusations of politicised appointments have been levelled at former governments of all stripes, though progressive think tank The Australia Institute found a significant rise in what it deemed political appointments after the Coalition won office in 2013.

The think tank found around 5 per cent of AAT appointments under the Howard, Rudd and Gillard governments had been made to people with political connections, but that jumped to more than one-third of appointments under the Morrison government.

Justice Susan Kenney has been appointed as the acting president of the AAT to guide its transition to the new system.

Mr Dreyfus said *the new review body would be given 75 additional staff to help clear backlogs, at a cost of $63.4 million.*


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2022)

How many times has the Government warned us about not drinking unbranded, unsealed, undrinkable $hit in Bali?  








						Nationals MP Michael McCormack's kava-drinking ordeal leaves him 'cross-eyed' in hospital
					

The former deputy prime minister says he drank five bowls of kava in Vanuatu a day before being rushed to hospital after downing another more potent version of the traditional Pacific drink in Micronesia.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2022)

Unfortunately have to put everything into one thread now, as if you put it in the wrong thread I'm sure @Joe Blow  would be in all sorts of trouble.
Just want to place the article to be able to follow up later and want to trace it.








						Third of councillors resign in mass exodus from embattled outback council
					

Four councillors elected to Barkly Regional Council in the remote Northern Territory have resigned in recent days. The mayor says he is shocked by the latest development in the beleaguered outback council.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Sean K (20 December 2022)

Krudd is Ambassador to the US.  

Didn't Labor criticise the Liberals for installing ex-Libs to diplomatic posts?

Hypocrites one and all.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 December 2022)

That great master of Transparency, Daniel Andrews, has released 265 stte government  created reports three days before Christmas.
From Evil Murdoch press . 


> The Victorian government has dumped 265 documents on the final sitting day of 2022 and the opening day of parliament. The series of annual reports are dominated by accounts from health departments, the triple zero authority and a range of other government agencies.





They have been sitting on some of them were given to the Government months ago, some only recently.
By releasing a bundle before Christmas, there us less chance of  something becoming a news item
A cynic might suggest its a perfect way to hide unpleasant things.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (21 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> That great master of Transparency, Daniel Andrews, has released 265 stte government  created reports three days before Christmas.
> From Evil Murdoch press .
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, but I'm sure any journalist worth their salt will have their noses buried in them over Christmas.


----------



## sptrawler (21 December 2022)

And the Brittany Higgins fallout continues.








						Bruce Lehrmann’s lawyers send legal letters to Ten, News Corp
					

The ACT announced an independent inquiry into the handling of the Lehrmann case by both the police and the prosecutor.




					www.smh.com.au
				




*Lawyers acting for former political staffer Bruce Lehrmann have sent legal letters to media outlets over their coverage of rape allegations* aired by his former colleague, Brittany Higgins, as he welcomed a public inquiry into authorities’ handling of his abandoned criminal trial.

The ACT government announced the inquiry following reports that the territory’s director of public prosecutions, Shane Drumgold, SC, complained that police had tried to pressure him not to prosecute Lehrmann, prompting law enforcement to call for a separate probe.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Mr Dreyfus said *the new review body would be given 75 additional staff to help clear backlogs, at a cost of $63.4 million.*




"Ah yes Minister, you actually need more public servants to reduce waste, and it's more expensive to do things cheaply."

Humphrey Appleby.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> And the Brittany Higgins fallout continues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



100% for this enquiry.
If accusations and mistakes are made then they should be addressed and also if there are legislative shortcomings then they can be addressed. Good governance.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't want this to be political, but maybe I don't follow politics enough, but from the outside looking in it sounds like wash, rinse, repeat. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think many of those Liberal hacks they used to stack the board were too busy on other boards etc. to do the work.
How did they get that far behind?
It is really very wrong on a number of levels.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I think many of those Liberal hacks they used to stack the board were too busy on other boards etc. to do the work.
> How did they get that far behind?
> It is really very wrong on a number of levels.



Have a close relative sitting on the Vic AAT.
The problems are exactly the same, massive backlog of cases, some people will be waiting for three years for a hearing.
His reasons,  massive increase in caseload,  not having staff available due to COVID, plus the general level of angst in the community to anything and everything. This may well be true, but I think his biggest problem is that he is a poorly trained typist, so with two fingered typing it takes him a long time to write up judgements. In the old days, he had an extremely skilled typist who typed as he spoke. Better than a dictaphone.  
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (22 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> This may well be true, but I think his biggest problem is that he is a poorly trained typist, so with two fingered typing it takes him a long time to write up judgements. In the old days, he had an extremely skilled typist who typed as he spoke. Better than a dictaphone.




There is such a thing as voice recognition to text these days.


----------



## sptrawler (22 December 2022)

Situation normal, as I've said on numerous occasions, it was much easier to put the squeeze on the Libs for a pay rise.
Everyone and their dog would give the Libs heaps, so they capitulated pretty easily, it ain't so easy when Labor are in. 🤣
A month saved here, a month saved there, it all adds to the bottom line.
It's nice to watch, now I'm not working.  








						Pay rise fast-tracked for WA police resoundingly rejected, sparking warning of fresh industrial action
					

The WA government will be forced to continue pay negotiations with frontline workers in the new year as two-thirds of police officers knock back its latest offer, with the vote revealed a day after the offer was delivered in a show of "goodwill".




					www.abc.net.au
				




From the article:
Premier Mark McGowan said the pay offer was "final" in the government's mind and that he would not budge on increasing base pay rates, but was happy to discuss other elements of pay and conditions.
Mr Gale said members would now be surveyed about why they rejected the offer and in what further industrial action they were willing to take part – ranging from leaving phones at work or issuing cautions instead of fines, through to marching on Parliament House.
"In January I will provide those reasons to the Commissioner of Police and I will invite him to provide us with a third pay offer," he said.

"If we receive a third offer, we will consider it. If we don't, we will consider a new round of action based on the response that we receive from members."










						Immediate pay rise for WA nurses and police won't arrive before Christmas - WAMN News Online
					

The McGowan Government announced that nurses, midwives, and police will get an immediate pay rise but the payments won’t arrive before Christmas. Nurses to get wage increase between 3 – […]



					wamnnews.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (22 December 2022)

Interesting article and when it is broken down to basics, it shows how at sea the electorate is IMO. 
They are just looking for a direction IMO, they were the same in the 2019 election IMO, but had to go with the less loony option.
Then we had Covid, in the last term, so the outcome is pretty interesting and I did vote Albo as I said at the time, the libs were worn out and bereft of ideas.
The other point that has to be remembered is, Labor were voted in with the lowest primary vote in history, so it definitely isn't black and white IMO, just a very confused and scared public.
Cutting away the fluff, I think these points nailed it.








						‘A significant negative’: Liberal Party election review finds Morrison ‘out of touch’
					

The federal election review also revealed late and poor candidate selection and lack of diversity contributed to the worst Liberal poll result since 1946.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Scott Morrison and the Liberal Party were considered “out of touch” by voters at the May election, an internal review of the party has found that sheeted home the loss to a lack of policy agenda and crumbling support among professional women.

Compiled by Liberal senator Jane Hume and former party director Brian Loughnane, the review of this year’s election also revealed problems within the party’s state divisions, late or poor candidate selection, scandals and lack of diversity all contributed to the worst Liberal poll result since 1946.

The Coalition suffered a 5.7 per cent fall in its primary vote at the May 21 poll. The Liberal Party lost a string of metropolitan seats to Labor, the Greens and teal independents. It now holds just four of 44 inner-city electorates.
“The prime minister’s standing with voters deteriorated significantly through 2021 to become a significant negative. The prime minister and the party were seen as ‘out of touch’,” they found.

“The leadership choice between Scott Morrison and Anthony Albanese became the most influential driver of voting intention during the campaign period.”
The review noted that there was a loss of “political capital” in the 12 months leading up to the election and an “accumulation of negative issues”.

Loading
These included a loss of political focus due to the demands of dealing with the Covid pandemic, allegations of poor treatment of women, the length of time the party had been in office and problems with its state divisions.

The lack of an agenda for a prospective fourth term in office was a key issue.
“The Coalition’s agenda for a fourth term appeared to be limited and unclear to the electorate. The most significant policy announcement, on home ownership, was announced in the last week of the campaign,” it found.

“The sense the government had ‘run its race’ was allowed to develop as a result. Voters, including those acknowledging the government’s effective performance in managing the pandemic, did not have a clear view of the Coalition’s priorities for another term.”


----------



## IFocus (22 December 2022)

The Teals took seats that should have been Liberal blue ribbon, Teat candidates were quality verse very ordinary Liberal moderates that always got rolled by minority hard right in the party room resulting in ideological BS about everything.

Then there are the Nats rabid anti Climate action while shaking down Morrison for billions didn't help.

Morrison was just icing on the cake IMHO.


----------



## sptrawler (22 December 2022)

IFocus said:


> The Teals took seats that should have been Liberal blue ribbon, Teat candidates were quality verse very ordinary Liberal moderates that always got rolled by minority hard right in the party room resulting in ideological BS about everything.
> 
> Then there are the Nats rabid anti Climate action while shaking down Morrison for billions didn't help.
> 
> Morrison was just icing on the cake IMHO.



Absolutely nailed it, the Libs were well past their use by date, if Shorten hadn't gone weird they would have won the 2019 election.
But having said that, the policies they were carrying into the 2019 election, would have been a disaster for them when covid hit.
Franking credits to self funded retirees stopped, when they didn't get a dividend anyway, would not have worked well.
But some were cheering it on. 
IMO it was a bit like the Howard era, they had run their race and Australia was in good shape, but people get bored and want change.
It was better for Australia IMO, that Labor lost the 2019 election and didn't face the covid debacle, Albo is a much better fit and doesn't seem to carry the baggage Shorten did.
IMO it is all about picking the right team for the times and I think Labor have a better chance of pulling off a better outcome, they will make mistakes, but more of the same wasn't the answer in my opinion.
Most of the teals will be gone next election IMO, pointless bored people who want to big note themselves, but like many others once the reality of having to perform for very little personal accolades sinks in, they will jump ship IMO.
Time will tell.
A bit like Maxine McKew IMO. A political statement, of little benefit and no one will know at what cost. 
We ae lucky in W.A, we seem to be more centred IMO.
*Maxine Margaret McKew* (born 22 July 1953[1]) is a former Australian Labor politician and journalist; she was the Parliamentary Secretary for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government in the First Rudd Ministry and the First Gillard Ministry.

*Between 2007 and 2010*, she was the member of the House of Representatives for the Division of Bennelong, New South Wales. Until 2007, the seat was held by the then Prime Minister John Howard, who had been the member for 33 years. She was only the second person to unseat a sitting Australian prime minister since Jack Holloway defeated Stanley Bruce in 1929;[2] and the third person to unseat the leader of a major party, after Neville Newell defeated Charles Blunt, leader of the National Party, in 1990. At the 2010 Federal election she lost her seat to the Liberal Party candidate, John Alexander.


----------



## moXJO (23 December 2022)

I think Labor will pick up more votes next election. There is stuff sneaking through that will be on the nose when it filters through to real world. But overall it seems to be a steady hand.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 December 2022)

The Libs know what they have to do, but as the Libs in Victoria have found out its hard to change entrenched power.


----------



## PZ99 (23 December 2022)

FWIW I can't remember anytime a first term opposition leader has won an election and I can't see Peter Dutton breaking that record. If the Libs want to win they'll need to change their leader at some point.

Plus they need to start preselecting candidates early, and with mainstream values, not extremists.

They also need to stop hating unions because most people really don't give a monkeys about them.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The Libs know what they have to do, but as the Libs in Victoria have found out its hard to change entrenched power.



I don't think they actually do know what to do, turning from classical liberalism to Tealism, isn't going to work.

Zac Kirkup showed that.


----------



## PZ99 (23 December 2022)

BTW.. the Coalition have just lost a seat.









						Federal MP Andrew Gee quits National Party over Indigenous Voice stance
					

The federal Member for Calare, Andrew Gee, is resigning from the National Party effective immediately over its opposition to the Indigenous Voice to Parliament.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (23 December 2022)

The Libs will adapt and change as always happens, society is always changing, Govt's change with it.

A bit like what happened today at my place, 7 years ago we put a second storey on the house, so the daughter could move in downstairs.
Back then a couple of mates gave me a hand to lift the fridge upstairs, the fridge died recently, two blokes arrive with the new one, look at the stairs and say we need three blokes, so the three blokes arrived this morning and got the fridge up the stairs.
But I said to the daughter I am going to have to put an elevator in, because in 5 years time blokes wont carry a fridge up the stairs, Oc health and safety wont allow it.

The  World keeps changing, we all adapt, that is what humans are good at, well that and killing each other.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The Libs will adapt and change as always happens, society is always changing, Govt's change with it.
> 
> A bit like what happened today at my place, 7 years ago we put a second storey on the house, so the daughter could move in downstairs.
> Back then a couple of mates gave me a hand to lift the fridge upstairs, the fridge died recently, two blokes arrive with the new one, look at the stairs and say we need three blokes, so the three blokes arrived this morning and got the fridge up the stairs.
> ...



"Back in the day", bags of grain were 3 bushels. We in the horsey world used whole oats and that equated to about 55 kg. No probs, sling that sucker over the shoulder and off you go... For the 50 odd bags you were getting delivered.

As I understand it, a 3 bushel bag of wheat is quite a bit heavier, yet those old-time farmers were slinging bags on and off trucks and stacking them.

These days bags are feed are about 20 kg and the youngsters  start bitching after carrying two or three.

Back when I started farriery nearly 40 years ago, I have vivid memories of the intense agony I went through... Back, thighs, knees etc.

I had persistent bruises on the inside of my thighs just above the knees for weeks. 

I've had ribs broken three times and popped intercostals several times, and have worked through the agony of it.

I've done ACLs and lateral collateral ligaments... All lovely stuff when you have a horse's leg between your knees and it's shifting around on you.

Did I stop working? Nope.

At 61, I am in still in pretty good order really, but it's my elbows. I can no longer straighten them and they keep me awake at night.

Do I stop working? Nope  (actually I'm considering chucking it in but not because of my body but because of dealing with psycho horsey chicks {actually the guys are even worse}).

Just a convoluted way, @sptrawler , of agreeing with you. We are breeding a generation of weaklings and pansies.


----------



## moXJO (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Do I stop working? Nope  (actually I'm considering chucking it in but not because of my body but because of dealing with psycho horsey chicks {actually the guys are even worse}).
> 
> Just a convoluted way, @sptrawler , of agreeing with you. We are breeding a generation of weaklings and pansies.



Just nod and charge the "woke" fee. 
Best to just smile and wave. 

The only thing clearing these first world problems is a deep recession.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> I don't think they actually do know what to do, turning from classical liberalism to Tealism, isn't going to work.
> 
> Zac Kirkup showed that.



Get women on side. That means offering some good ones, why give the teals a free ride.

Try to get back the Chinese immigrant vote and on a related note use your brains before aggressively slamming China. It also loses you votes in companies that trade with China such as lobster,  wine.

Get off loser Newscorp themes, Australia is not going to elect a religious right Republican party look alike and also stop arguing dumb stuff like electric cars, gay marriage. Time has moved on.

Get more diverse. If you only go for the middle aged white guy vote, then that's all you will get.

Provide a clear alternative related to running the economy. Provide plans.

Stress good management, which was frankly lacking in the most recent government.

Don't argue to keep corruption in Government by weakening laws.

Don't look after the big end of town in preference to small business just to get a few election funds. The foreign owned gas companies are not our friends.

Appear on all networks with the whole front bench, not just Sky News, to engender trust and argue alternative views that make sense.

Finally stop picking nobs and boofheads as the leader.

(You can tell I am on holidays )


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Get women on side. That means offering some good ones, why give the teals a free ride.
> 
> Try to get back the Chinese immigrant vote and on a related note use your brains before aggressively slamming China. It also loses you votes in companies that trade with China such as lobster,  wine.
> 
> ...



So basically be the Labor right?

Nup, notwithstanding a couple of good coins there, that would not win me or anybody I know back to the party... ESPECIALLY the women.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> So basically be the Labor right?
> 
> Nup, notwithstanding a couple of good coins there, that would not win me or anybody I know back to the party... ESPECIALLY the women.




95% of my clients are women, and because of a demographic, very few labor or Greens voters 

I go very carefully with my opinions, because not my place, I'm there to do a job get paid and @#$& off. Basically I let them rant, nod, and p$ss in their pocket.

I've noticed over the last couple of years, especially since the ridiculous responses to the beer bug, they, especially the women are moving further right and getting further and further disenchanted with the direction of the liberal party and their pandering to the left.

Yes it's a function of the demographic, very few inner city, head in the damned clouds trendies with no idea where anything that they rely on to survive comes from.

They want a move back to the centre right.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

There are very few Greenie types, you know, the ones that will feed seaweed to their two cows to cut down on methane emissions, but drive a V8 LandCruiser, float their horses all over the countryside and knocked down a perfectly good house to build a Mcmansion, and thrash their water licence to keep the lousy kikuyu on their 5 acres nice and green.


----------



## The Triangle (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> There are very few Greenie types, you know, the ones that will feed seaweed to their two cows to cut down on methane emissions, but drive a V8 LandCruiser, float their horses all over the countryside and knocked down a perfectly good house to build a Mcmansion, and thrash their water licence to keep the lousy kikuyu on their 5 acres nice and green.



Shhh!  Don't tell greens voters they should live a green lifestyle!  _We're _supposed to live the green lifestyle, so _they _don't need to.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> So basically be the Labor right?
> 
> Nup, notwithstanding a couple of good coins there, that would not win me or anybody I know back to the party... ESPECIALLY THE WOMEN.



Which bit do you oppose?
Or what would you add?
Genuinely interested.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Which bit do you oppose?
> Or what would you add?
> Genuinely interested.



I oppose everything that are leftist talking points.

The liberal party will never catch the pompous and hypocritical women who drive Range Rovers and live in a 50 square centrally heated house while virtue signalling their useless green tokenism.

They'll never get the parents of spoilt brats gluing themselves to the road and throwing tomato soup on priceless artworks, or indeed their blue haired children.

I'll never get anyone while they are practising corporate cronyism. Only the Labor Party can do that because they know how to lie better.

They have to represent middle Australia better and weather the lunacy of the pseudo socialist, identirarian fringe.

They have to identify and succinctly highlight the lunacy I've leftist thought, they have to somehow shift the Overton window back to the centre and have proper debate there.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> I oppose everything that are leftist talking points.
> 
> The liberal party will never catch the pompous and hypocritical women who drive Range Rovers and live in a 50 square centrally heated house while virtue signalling their useless green tokenism.
> 
> ...



Those women used to vote Liberal. Not all women are green voters or will even vote Labor.
You can't win the election without getting them back. Politics is about winning.

 Getting successful business women as potential MPs  is a winning strategy in my view.

Libs will get the Liberal Democrat vote by preferences no matter what policies they  have.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Those women used to vote Liberal. Not all women are green voters or will even vote Labor.
> You can't win the election without getting them back. Politics is about winning.
> 
> Getting successful business women as potential MPs  is a winning strategy in my view.



Like I said above, if my circle of acquaintances is anything to go by, they ain't getting them back by being teals.

Agree about getting some smart women in, but it won't work until that Overton window shifts to the middle. That's not going to happen while Liberals are pretend greens.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Like I said above, if my circle of acquaintances is anything to go by, they ain't getting them back by being teals.
> 
> Agree about getting some smart women in, but it won't work until that Overton window shifts to the middle. That's not going to happen while Liberals are pretend greens.



As I said, Libs always get your votes by preferences coz you aren't going to vote teals, greens or Labor ahead of the Libs no matter what their policies.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> As I said, Libs always get your votes by preferences.



Not in my electorate. It was done and dusted before it trickled down to about  my 8th preference.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yes it's a function of the demographic, very few inner city, head in the damned clouds trendies with no idea where anything that they rely on to survive comes from.



Perhaps just reflecting my social circle but most seem to have concluded that all political parties at this point have lost the plot completely.

Pick any of them and contemplate who do they actually represent?

One side's gone down the track of religion while the other seems hell bent on coercive control and reducing the lives of ordinary people to not much more than existence. Both have become miserable parodies of what they once represented.

What thinking person wants to vote for any of that?


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Perhaps just reflecting my social circle but most seem to have concluded that all political parties at this point have lost the plot completely.
> 
> Pick any of them and contemplate who do they actually represent?
> 
> ...



Well that's the problem, not enough thinking people. $0.02


----------



## basilio (27 December 2022)

Honest Government Ads. Indeed. 

Some ASF posters may have seen the work done by Juice Media with their "Honest Government ads" .  Biting humour.  Very free with the
xhit xuchery.  Very well researched with their information.  When you finish seeing one of their ads you have learnt something new. And I usually start spitting some fresh chips.

I just received  their Christmas message and outtakes for the year. Thought it would be worth sharing and encouraging some posters to check out their views.

Cheers


----------



## basilio (27 December 2022)

This could have gone anywhere really but I plumped on Australian Politics.

So how did London deal with the  Great Plague  in 1603 ?  Are there any history lessons we might learn when considering the current approach to pestilence, plague and COVID ?  Or do we just enjoy the joke ?

If you ever enjoyed Upstart Crow you will *dive* into this special .  If you havn't been introduced  consider the opportunity.















						Upstart Crow: Christmas Lockdown 1603
					

Will and Kate are in lockdown thanks to the plague of 1603, and bemoaning the fact no one is wearing their 'Bubonic Plaguey Beaks' right. Will hopes to pen a new classic, while Kate is attempting home baking and needlepoint.




					iview.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (27 December 2022)

Sean K said:


> Krudd is Ambassador to the US.
> 
> Didn't Labor criticise the Liberals for installing ex-Libs to diplomatic posts?
> 
> Hypocrites one and all.



And of course, we should not forget this headline from back in August during the election campaign, during an interview on 4bc radio back in April 2022.


> *The Opposition Leader has rejected claims he’s considering Kevin Rudd as Australia’s next US ambassador if Labor wins.*
> 
> _The Australian _today reports Anthony Albanese has told senior party colleagues he would favour appointing the former prime minister.
> 
> ...



I am sure that the Albanese camp will put their hand on their collective hearts and swear that at the time of the interview, the statement was true, and that the consideration of Rudd was only made after the election.
The trouble is, I can already see this as the first in string of adds where the coalition do the "you can't trust them line".
Mick


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## mullokintyre (28 December 2022)

There must be an election coming time.
Someone should tell the nSW opposition leader (soon to be premier) that he does not need to do stupid stunts to get to be the new premier.
From Evil Murdoch Press 


> NSW opposition leader *Chris Minns* will today vow to make New Year Eve fireworks free to view if Labor is elected at the next state election.
> 
> If elected in March, Mr Minns said revenue generated by ticketed events at the NYE fireworks event will be waived.
> 
> ...



Yep, I am pretty sure that If I were given the opportunity, free access to the best spots to view a once a year event that may or may not be cancelled due to fire restrictions, would definitely cause me to change my voting habits.
Mick


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## SirRumpole (28 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> There must be an election coming time.
> Someone should tell the nSW opposition leader (soon to be premier) that he does not need to do stupid stunts to get to be the new premier.
> From Evil Murdoch Press
> 
> ...



Let's hope he comes up with more than that !


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## mullokintyre (28 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Let's hope he comes up with more than that !



Well, its hard to tell whether the good citizens of NSW are that dumb,  Minns and his minders are that dumb, or that Minns and his minders THINK  the NSW citizens  are that dumb.
Mick


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## PZ99 (28 December 2022)

Whoever wins will mean the right choice is made even if the winner presents a blank page.

There's no such thing as a dumb electorate in a democracy


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## mullokintyre (4 January 2023)

mullokintyre said:


> And of course, we should not forget this headline from back in August during the election campaign, during an interview on 4bc radio back in April 2022.
> 
> I am sure that the Albanese camp will put their hand on their collective hearts and swear that at the time of the interview, the statement was true, and that the consideration of Rudd was only made after the election.
> The trouble is, I can already see this as the first in string of adds where the coalition do the "you can't trust them line".
> Mick



And right on cue, the ruddster is straight in to giving his hosts lectures on how to run their country.
From The Evil murdoch press


> Kevin Rudd has urged the US to stop throwing “allies under a bus” and open its economy to Asia-Pacific nations to limit Chinese influence.
> The incoming ambassador to the US said the Biden administration was working with “one arm tied behind its back” in trying to ensure nations in the key strategic region did not become allies of China.
> 
> “What is the missing element in US grand strategy? It’s called the economy, stupid,” Mr Rudd told Bloomberg TV.
> ...




The Yanks must be so grateful.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (5 January 2023)

Why is it that there always seems to be different rules for China?
From The Evil Murdoch Empire


> Labor Minister Murray Watt has swatted away accusations that China is being hypocritical for condemning countries who plan to temporarily screen its travellers for Covid while planning to also make Australians take a PCR test ahead of travel to China.
> 
> “I don’t think it’s really helpful for politicians to be getting into labelling the actions of other countries,” Senator Watt told Sky News Australia, adding it was a "matter for other countries to decide what they do" about foreign travellers.
> 
> ...



I did not hear Mr Watt say anything about K Rudd telling the Americans what they should do.
Double standards by China, no it can't be.
Mick


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## PZ99 (5 January 2023)

mullokintyre said:


> Why is it that there always seems to be different rules for China?
> From The Evil Murdoch Empire
> 
> I did not hear Mr Watt say anything about K Rudd telling the Americans what they should do.
> ...



Why would he? What Rudd says at the moment has zip to with the Govt.

Ever heard of freedom of speech ? Or do we have to be hypocritical about that as well ?


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## mullokintyre (5 January 2023)

PZ99 said:


> Why would he? What Rudd says at the moment has zip to with the Govt.
> 
> Ever heard of freedom of speech ? Or do we have to be hypocritical about that as well ?



Free speech is usually bought up when it agrees with the bringer upperer's political bias.
otherwise its Disinformation, or a RWNJ, or LWN or maybe  A christian NJ.
Mick


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## PZ99 (5 January 2023)

mullokintyre said:


> Free speech is usually bought up when it agrees with the bringer upperer's political bias.
> otherwise its Disinformation, or a RWNJ, or LWN or maybe  A christian NJ.
> Mick



Ok so which of those descriptions fit the article from The Evil Murdoch Empire ?

The Australian people voted to reject the "drums of war" narrative from Peter Dutton and replace it with at least some level of sensible diplomacy and that's what Murray Watt was obviously instructed to do.

Any connection between that and Rudd's comments seem spurious at best and politically biased at worst.


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## mullokintyre (5 January 2023)

PZ99 said:


> Ok so which of those descriptions fit the article from The Evil Murdoch Empire ?



You will have to point them out, I see none.


PZ99 said:


> The Australian people voted to reject the "drums of war" narrative from Peter Dutton and replace it with at least some level of sensible diplomacy and that's what Murray Watt was obviously instructed to do.
> 
> Any connection between that and Rudd's comments seem spurious at best and politically biased at worst.



Rudd holds a diplamatic post. Are you suggesting that his bagging the US is now sensible diplomacy?
We will just have to keep our biases to ourselves.
Mick


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## PZ99 (5 January 2023)

mullokintyre said:


> You will have to point them out, I see none.



Not sure why you brought them up then 



mullokintyre said:


> Rudd holds a diplamatic post.



Rudd doesn't start that post until March. Until then, he still runs the Asia Society. He can say whatever he wants, just like any other ex PM.


mullokintyre said:


> Are you suggesting that his bagging the US is now sensible diplomacy?



Yes, when taken into context. Telling the US to stop throwing allies (including us) under a bus does sound sensible to me. Starting with dismantling some of their economic protectionism.



mullokintyre said:


> We will just have to keep our biases to ourselves.



In which case this thread would be a fraction of its current length.

But yes, it is a good idea


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## SirRumpole (Saturday at 6:49 AM)

PZ99 said:


> Yes, when taken into context. Telling the US to stop throwing allies (including us) under a bus does sound sensible to me. Starting with dismantling some of their economic protectionism.




Yes.

"In 2019-20, the United States was our second-largest two-way trading partner in goods and services, worth $80.8 billion. *Australia's goods and services exports to the United States were $27.4 billion.* Australia's total imports from the United States *were $53.4 billion.*"



			https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/in-force/ausfta/australia-united-states-fta
		


The US is doing pretty well out of Australia in the "free trade" game.


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## IFocus (Saturday at 3:13 PM)

I think Oz loses in most of the so called free trade agreements maybe not so with the Britts.


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## mullokintyre (Saturday at 4:25 PM)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes.
> 
> "In 2019-20, the United States was our second-largest two-way trading partner in goods and services, worth $80.8 billion. *Australia's goods and services exports to the United States were $27.4 billion.* Australia's total imports from the United States *were $53.4 billion.*"
> 
> ...



 From Worlds Top Exports


> *Australia’s biggest export products by value in 2021 were iron ores and concentrates, coal and solid fuels made from coal, petroleum gases, gold and crude oil. In aggregate, those 5 major exports account for 64.7% of overall exports sales from Australia. That relatively large percentage suggests a concentrated range of exported goods.*
> 
> Australia is a world leader for exporting iron, coal and petroleum gases.




The problem is, we need more of their stuff than they need of ours. They don't need our iron ore, our coal, petroleum gases gold or crude oil.
They produce enough of their own.
The top exports from the US to OZ





We do not have the industries to make so many of these products, even if we wanted to.
We closed down so much of our manufacturing, including cars.
Our spacecraft/aircraft industry  has been completely ruined by the "we know better" mandarins at CASA, so we import everything.
We don't manufacturer any chips, high and or low end , the last solar panel factory closed years ago, all of our wind farms are imported , as are most of our battery storage systems.
It is no great surprise then that we run a deficit with the US, but I would argue that tariffs are not the  main reason.
Mick


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## moXJO (Monday at 2:30 AM)

mullokintyre said:


> From Worlds Top Exports
> 
> 
> The problem is, we need more of their stuff than they need of ours. They don't need our iron ore, our coal, petroleum gases gold or crude oil.
> ...



Wages and associated costs are just stupidly high here.


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## sptrawler (Today at 11:58 AM)

Business as usual, only the faces change. 🤣









						The PM, the premier and a billionaire’s private helicopter: What Albanese did at the weekend
					

The prime minister arrived in Lindsay Fox’s private helicopter for a barbecue at the billionaire’s mansion before he flew to the flood zone in Western Australia on Saturday.




					www.smh.com.au
				



Prime Minister Anthony Albanese was flown in Lindsay Fox’s private helicopter to a five-hour barbecue with the business magnate and Premier Daniel Andrews at the billionaire’s seaside mansion in Portsea last weekend.

The meeting between two of Australia’s most powerful politicians and one of the country’s wealthiest families was quietly held on Saturday afternoon after Albanese finished his official business in Victoria, and before he flew to the flood zone in Western Australia.

The Prime Minister’s Office did not respond over several days to requests for comment about his attendance at the social gathering and his use of the billionaire’s helicopter.

When the issue was raised with Albanese by a Nine News reporter during a press conference on Wednesday in Rockhampton, Queensland, he said: “I have private meetings all the time. And I have private meetings which are private meetings.”


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## moXJO (Today at 3:26 PM)

sptrawler said:


> Business as usual, only the faces change. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Same old same old.
Don't hear much from this government- which is good. But there's a lot of under the table deals that seem to be going on.


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## sptrawler (47 minutes ago)

moXJO said:


> Same old same old.
> Don't hear much from this government- which is good. But there's a lot of under the table deals that seem to be going on.



It's just that the Govt is on the right side of the narrative, at the moment.


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