# Hand Drawing Charts for the SPI?



## zenin (18 April 2008)

Hi, I'm hoping someone in the forum might have some knowledge in hand drawing their own SPI charts? 

Basically, I'm trying to learn the best way to approach hand drawing each price chart (Daily, Weekly and Monthly) and then how to set out or 'scale' price ranges within their respective time frames.

Is there any tricks to how to best set each chart and price range? Any suggestions would be more than welcome. Thanks Jay


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## Trembling Hand (19 April 2008)

Sorry but why would you want to hand draw a chart? Any chart?


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## Whiskers (19 April 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Sorry but why would you want to hand draw a chart? Any chart?




My sentiments exactly. I'm curious.  

Heck, with so many electronic services including digital signitures, I hardly ever get to sign my name on anything let alone hand draw or write much anymore.  

About all I hand write these days is my shopping list. But as my old nokia phone battery has finally carked it, I'm in the market for a new phone which will probably have a digital note pad too.


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## explod (19 April 2008)

Whiskers said:


> My sentiments exactly. I'm curious.
> 
> Heck, with so many electronic services including digital signitures, I hardly ever get to sign my name on anything let alone hand draw or write much anymore.
> 
> About all I hand write these days is my shopping list. But as my old nokia phone battery has finally carked it, I'm in the market for a new phone which will probably have a digital note pad too.




Beware, my nokia did kark it recently and the kind fellow at the Telstra Shop gave me a stainless steel Motorroller and I am having all the trouble in the world learning how to do a text on it.  Wish I had just got a valve grind for the old one.

My Candle stick chart of the US$ gold price now extends all the way around my office (a daily) 2008 is nearly back to 2002.  That's why I cant' do posts of it.


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## Trader Paul (19 April 2008)

zenin said:


> Hi, I'm hoping someone in the forum might have some knowledge in hand drawing their own SPI charts?
> 
> Basically, I'm trying to learn the best way to approach hand drawing each price chart (Daily, Weekly and Monthly) and then how to set out or 'scale' price ranges within their respective time frames.
> 
> Is there any tricks to how to best set each chart and price range? Any suggestions would be more than welcome. Thanks Jay






Hi Zenin,

..... it sounds like you have been reading some of the "old school" 
Bowden (sitm) stuff ..... as other posters have concluded, since 
the advent of reliable and sophisticated charting programs, the 
time wasted on hand-drawing charts can be better spent on
doing better analysis ..... 

..... but, if you insist on hand-drawing your charts, then maybe 
you should do some study on Gann's original charting work, as 
well as others, like Herzcyck (sp?) in _"Pattern, Time and Price"_
to gain some insight, into exactly what you are trying to achieve.

have a great weekend

   paul

P.S. .... Whiskers ..... just buy a new battery for your old Nokia, it will be cheaper
            and probably a lot more reliable, too ..... !~!



=====


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## Whiskers (19 April 2008)

Trader Paul said:


> Hi Zenin,
> 
> ..... it sounds like you have been reading some of the "old school"
> Bowden (sitm) stuff ..... as other posters have concluded, since
> ...




That's what I was thinking. But I'm always interested in exceptions.



> P.S. .... Whiskers ..... just buy a new battery for your old Nokia, it will be cheaper
> and probably a lot more reliable, too ..... !~!






explod said:


> Beware, my nokia did kark it recently and the kind fellow at the Telstra Shop gave me a stainless steel Motorroller and I am having all the trouble in the world learning how to do a text on it.  Wish I had just got a valve grind for the old one.




Yeah, part of me agrees with you, but I'm wrestling with the other part that says get with the times.


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## Freddo (19 April 2008)

Trader Paul said:


> ..... it sounds like you have been reading some of the "old school"
> Bowden (sitm) stuff ..... as other posters have concluded, since
> the advent of reliable and sophisticated charting programs, the
> time wasted on hand-drawing charts can be better spent on
> ...




I'm of this old school. My chart was over 2 metres high and 6 metres long
I used to roll it out like carpet when it got too high for the wall.

It was very good because hand charting stick important dates and prices in your head as part of the hand drawing.

It was hopeless because you spent so much time drawing and it was a pest when you make a mistake.

I do not hand chart anymore and I don't use any SITM techniques anymore


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## Timmy (19 April 2008)

Freddo said:


> My chart was over 2 metres high and 6 metres long
> I used to roll it out like carpet when it got too high for the wall.




2 metres by 6 metres?
Roll out like carpet?

Luxury ...


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## Freddo (19 April 2008)

Timmy said:


> 2 metres by 6 metres?
> Roll out like carpet?
> 
> Luxury ...




I still have it!  

Maybe I could use it to test my silent walking skills like Kwai Chang Caine in Kung Fu !


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## MRC & Co (20 April 2008)

Trader Paul said:


> Hi Zenin,
> 
> ..... it sounds like you have been reading some of the "old school"
> Bowden (sitm) stuff ..... as other posters have concluded, since
> ...




Or Trading the SPI by Brent Penfold.

I agree, I would not waste the time.  Plenty of other things to consider and time better spent IMO.


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## sails (20 April 2008)

Started trading education with SITM over 11 yrs ago now and was taught to hand draw SPI charts.  The idea was good hand to eye co-ordination  and help to remember important major highs and lows...

SITM did make money out of selling their special charting paper, and IMO was incredibly expensive, and subsequently raised the question in my mind if it was just another way help newbie suckers part with a bit more of their cash.  

I have also read the book "Pattern, price & time : using Gann theory in trading systems" by James A. Hyerczyk as suggested earlier by Trader Paul and is certainly one of the better books I have read so far on Gann style analysis.


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## Hyerczyk (22 April 2008)

Hi, this is James Hyerczyk.  Your posting came up in a google search so I joined the forum.

Thank you for buying my book.  How can I help you better understand Gann analysis? Are you looking for charting paper?  The scale to use?  Let me know, and I'll try to help you.

Jim


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## Hyerczyk (22 April 2008)

Hello Gentleman.

I saw "old school", "hand-charting", and my name butchered somewhere in here so I knew I had to join.  I have charted by hand since 1982, but I also have limited programming skills in TradeStation.  My charts are big so my angles don't get all clustered like they do on a screen chart.  I guess it comes down to personal preference.  I believe trading is 90% mental, 10% mechanical so I keep my Gann analysis simple:  main trend indicator, angles.  I have done my homework as far as time is concerned so it's already plotted on the chart. The more time I spend with the chart, the better I get at that market.  

Basically I let the price create horizontal and diagonal support or resistance, time gives me a vertical zone to form a box, then I look for a pattern to take place inside the box.  Today it seems everything is smoothed out, I like working with raw prices.  Also because of the over emphasis on Fib retracements we have far to many "horizontal" traders.

I don't have a lot of markets to watch.  I am mainly driven by volume and volatility.  The only computerized pattern I watch for is a closing price reversal.  The rest of the indicators, in my opinion, either lag or are coincidental.  I like things with predictive value.

I have seen Gann angles plotted by programs, but nobody has built a two-bar trend indicator like I have.  Many of the programs are difficult to work with like CQG because they are created by programmers not traders or analysts.  Their Gann angles take to much time to create.  Also Time is the most important factor.  Very few canned programs have anything to do with time.  

Like I said before, its a personal preference.  

If anyone knows of a program that can put seasonal, cyclical, square dates and astro dates on a chart, please let me know.  This would save me time.

Best Wishes and Good Trading,

Jim Hyerczyk


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## Frank D (22 April 2008)

I spent nearly 5 years in the early 90’s hand drawing daily and intra-day charts on the SPI

I didn’t use any indicators, just read the charts.  It’s the best thing you’ll ever do to get a ‘feel’ for the markets.

Nowadays, new traders spend half their learning curve playing around with indicators trying to find which works the best. The sad part  none do. 

In my opinion you will probably learn to ‘chart-read’ effectively much quicker by hand drawing charts than fluffing around with numerous lagging indicators.

Trading is all about support/resistance/ reversals and breakouts.

And that can be all done with ‘hand charts’, especially when only looking at one market. (SPI)

Once you spend time hand drawing charts, then for damn sake get a program because you don’t want to be updating  10 different charts of different stocks on a daily basis, you’ll go nuts


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## wayneL (22 April 2008)

Hyerczyk said:


> Hello Gentleman.
> 
> I saw "old school", "hand-charting", and my name butchered somewhere in here so I knew I had to join.  I have charted by hand since 1982, but I also have limited programming skills in TradeStation.  My charts are big so my angles don't get all clustered like they do on a screen chart.  I guess it comes down to personal preference.  I believe trading is 90% mental, 10% mechanical so I keep my Gann analysis simple:  main trend indicator, angles.  I have done my homework as far as time is concerned so it's already plotted on the chart. The more time I spend with the chart, the better I get at that market.
> 
> ...




Hi Jim,

Regarding "angles"; maybe you can answer the burning question many a Gann doubter has always had.

The question is this: The relationship between the _x_ and _y_ axes on a price chart isn't, and never has as far as I know, been absolute. As trader _a_ and trader _b_ may use different scaling on a particular axis to the other, how can an angle be absolutely measured, without a great whopping handful of discretion, with regards to scale on the _x_ axis?

I've asked this question many times without ever getting an answer. I'm genuinely interested in the solution to this conundrum.

Cheers


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## RichKid (22 April 2008)

Hyerczyk said:


> Hi, this is James Hyerczyk.  Your posting came up in a google search so I joined the forum.
> 
> Thank you for buying my book.  How can I help you better understand Gann analysis? Are you looking for charting paper?  The scale to use?  Let me know, and I'll try to help you.
> 
> Jim




Hi Jim

Welcome to Aussie Stock Forums!

Thanks for taking time to explain your field of study to us, it's always encouraging to have interesting traders here on ASF. I'm glad to hear that you try to keep your analysis and forecasts simple rather than making it too complex.

Excuse me for asking, but how should we pronounce your surname?

fwiw, I too am interested in your reply to Wayne's question about angles. There are a couple of Gann based traders here on ASF- Trader Paul and Magdoran. I don't know which school of Gann they subscribe to exactly but you may have some things in common.


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## zenin (22 April 2008)

Thanks to everyone for their imput, i'd really had hoped it would create a discussion with some clued-in people on this forum. Since there is such a huge knowledge base here for weighing the pros/cons for such subjects. 

I appreciate your imput and will keep considering if i will go ahead with it from here. Cheers : )


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## zenin (22 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*

Additional question: 

Are there any online sites that offer delayed SPI charts and or back data? I currently don't require live data so any links would be appreciated. Thanks Jay


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## Trader Paul (22 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



zenin said:


> Additional question:
> 
> Are there any online sites that offer delayed SPI charts and or back data? I currently don't require live data so any links would be appreciated. Thanks Jay






Hi Zenin,

XJO/SPI ..... as you do not require live data, one alternative that is readily
available is the actual physical market ... ie XJO ... this also does away with
one level of sentiment, in the marketplace.

You can access historical and daily updates for XJO, at:

http://www.investorweb.com.au/MB_download_price.asp

have a great day

   paul



=====


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## Trembling Hand (22 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trader Paul said:


> XJO/SPI ..... as you do not require live data, one alternative that is readily
> available is the actual physical market ... ie XJO ... this also does away with
> one level of sentiment, in the marketplace.




But that is no good as you get opens that are not true indications of the market.

And what do you mean by "does away with one level of sentiment"?


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## gazelle (22 April 2008)

Hello  James  . Most people do  not understand or appreciate  the basic geometric principles that are involved in the proper scaling of a Gann chart  .  I am embarrased to say that I havent read your book in its entirety but I hope to get hold of it soon and study it . Do you still keep hand drawn chrts or do you print and scale your trades through Gann Trader . for me this is a reasonable compromise and allows me to do most things properly .


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## wayneL (22 April 2008)

gazelle said:


> Most people do  not understand or appreciate  the basic geometric principles that are involved in the proper scaling of a Gann chart  .  I am embarrased to say that I havent read your book in its entirety but I hope to get hold of it soon and study it . Do you still keep hand drawn chrts or do you print and scale your trades through Gann Trader . for me this is a reasonable compromise and allows me to do most things properly .



I would say that's because nobody is willing, or able to explain it.

It seems a simple question on the face of it (but more complex when lognormal characteristics of markets are considered) but nobody will ever answer.

WTF?


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## gazelle (22 April 2008)

Its not an easy one to answer and if you break it down it gets even more complicated . If we take XYZ as an example  on the  22nd April 2007 it was trading at 180.00 we can construct either a  trading or calender day angle and in some cases Gann kept both . XYZ has travelled 365  calender days in time so price would be balanced against the 45 deg line at 545 . 
A trading day angle would travel 262 days and price would be balanced against the 45 deg line at 442 so depending on which application is used the results will differ . The primary componet is time and this has several dimensions depending on which timing componet you are using in your analysis Civil or Plannetary and as we know Gann used both . Geometric angles provide you with a directional gauge on how strong the prevailing trend is in relation to its harmonic angle . There are several angles that can be constructed . A 45 deg angle is 1 pt per day whist a 22.5 deg angle is 1 pt per 2 days and can used a measuring stick to gauge how much further a falling mkt has to go but just because price hits a particular angle doesnt always constitute a change of trend . There are other factors involved although the angles do offer some clues .

When you have an instrument like an index trading at 10,000pts true geometric scaling cannot be achieved because the average trading range on any given day might be 100 - 200 pts so setting a 45 deg angle against such an instrument would be impracticle and pointless . There are 8 16 and 32 pt divisors that some people use to balance time and price but this opens up a line of subjectivity as anyone can assign a value to one point per day .
If we assign 16 points to one day . will finish this later got to go out


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## Trader Paul (22 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trembling Hand said:


> But that is no good as you get opens that are not true indications of the market.
> 
> And what do you mean by "does away with one level of sentiment"?






Hi TH,

Whoa, whoa ..... slow down and stay on your bike ..... 

Most Gann traders would agree that TIME is the most important factor 
and as we are talking specifically about EOD charts here, charting and
analyzing XJO gives us a clearer picture of TIME cycle analysis, in the 
underlying market .....

..... and ultimately, that is what drives the SPI ... !~!

In fact, if we do not consider XJO as part of our SPI trading, then we are
also missing out on another important indicator, that being the premium or
discount, that the SPI is trading to XJO.

Realistically, we are dealing with *TWO levels of sentiment, DAILY* 
..... one generated by the whole market and reflected in XJO and the other
is "intraday noise" generated by interest in the SPI itself ..... this is what 
produces the spikes, as well as the discount and premiums to XJO .....

..... AND any trader who has traded the SPI overnight, also knows that
the overnight market is chiefly influenced, by a *THIRD level of sentiment*,
which is the DOW  ..... and some of the volume at the open and close of
the day session is overnight traders opening and closing positions.

So, reliance on SPI data, as the sole means of trading that market, means
that we have disregarded the primary driver, XJO ... *and without XJO, 
there would be NO SPI ..... !~!*

Analysis of the TIME AXIS on the XJO chart is of utmost importance for 
position traders in the SPI ..... the trades may be less frequent, but if
the timing is right, then the rewards speak for themselves ..... and the
stress level for traders is much less than being glued to a monitor all day,
trying to scalp a few points out of intraday moves .....

..... but, to be effective in position trading the SPI, MARKET TIMING is very important.

have a great day

   paul



=====


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## Trembling Hand (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*

Trader Paul BUT 

How do you deal with a part of the data that doesn't even represent the open as I first stated (because of the unusual ASX staggered open)

You gann stuff is all fine but if you are trading the SPI and the XJO is giving you an open that is 120 points away from the real market what application has it to someone who trades the SPI not an untradeable index?

Or more importantly why introduce false data into someones analysis that seems to be reasonably new at the game. When at that stage pattern identification and memory and opportunity identification is so important to learn the RIGHT way the first time. Why waste time when starting out looking at prices that aren't real. As per example below


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## Trader Paul (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trembling Hand said:


> Trader Paul BUT
> 
> How do you deal with a part of the data that doesn't even represent the open as I first stated (because of the unusual ASX staggered open)
> 
> ...







Hi TH, 

Using the underlying XJO data makes sense to some people, as it is the
overall driver of the Aussie SPI .....

..... you can put up whatever charts you like to look at PAST PRICE data, 
which is a LAGGING indicator in any trader's language ..... and you may
wish to fry your brain trying to scalp a few points intraday, but using a
longer-term stance, with a lower *overall* risk profile and less frequent 
trades is an attractive proposition to some traders ..... 

 ..... AND the most important driver of the SPI over the longer-term must
surely be the underlying XJO market sentiment ..... and that can be 
*anticipated well in advance*, using TIME cycle analysis of the XJO market.

Once we have identified a major turn in the market, we can further 
optimize our intraday entries/exits, using a wide stop (or no stop initially)
and maybe even entering overnight, then closing the stop up to the entry,
as the trade moves into profit ..... this may sound reckless to those who
fear the markets, but for traders who have developed confidence in their
own SPI trading methods over a long period of time, it can be rewarding.

As for the gaps in the SPI ..... as explained, much of the day's session
moves are already anticipated by traders taking positions in the overnight
market and selling/buying at the open of the day session ..... so, the day
and night sessions are really two *different* markets, with traders
often being unwilling to stay with either one beyond the immediate open
or close ..... that was shown, in your own charts, where the SPI had been
driven up substantially overnight and profit-takers moved in, at the open 
of the day session and buyers stayed away for the rest of the day.

  As Zenin said:

"I currently don't require live data so any links would be appreciated."

..... so, we responded with a view that may be *different* to yours,
but that certainly does not make it WRONG (or yours right).

Again, TIME is more important than PRICE  ... at the end of the day,
knowing WHEN to trade is more important, than the price level ... 

..... ie ..... we just use price to calculate our profits/losses ... !~! 

BTW, TH .... how long have you been trading the SPI ..... ???

have a great day

     paul



=====


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## wayneL (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trader Paul said:


> TIME is more important than PRICE



I've never been able to figure out how to get my broker's statement to show a profit for time (apart fro time premium). It is differential in PRICE that says whether I made a profit or loss. Even time premiums comes down to differential in PRICE.

However I recognize the importance of time, and use time (loosely) in my trading, but I'm stumped as to how time can be more important tahn price.

So far, despite questions, nobody has been able to explain this concept.


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## Trader Paul (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



wayneL said:


> I've never been able to figure out how to get my broker's statement to show a profit for time (apart fro time premium). It is differential in PRICE that says whether I made a profit or loss. Even time premiums comes down to differential in PRICE.
> 
> However I recognize the importance of time, and use time (loosely) in my trading, but I'm stumped as to how time can be more important tahn price.
> 
> So far, despite questions, nobody has been able to explain this concept.






Hi Wayne,

.... it's a very simple concept, for most traders.

If we know WHEN to trade, then it matters not what the price level is 
..... if we are trading at an extreme reversal level (and our timing is right),
then a minimal (or no) drawdown will be experienced, as our trade is taken
and the trend reverses, in our favour .....

.... alternately, if we are trading, with a trend and we anticipate a breakout 
at a particular TIME, then we take the trade at that TIME, with a stop in
place. 

Up to this point, price has not even been considered, except to place an 
order, giving the broker something to do and enable you to gauge, whether
the trade is profitable or not ...  simple stuff, really !~!

For example, we are already expecting some negative cycles to emerge,
in May/June 2008 for XJO/SPI ... so, on these days, our bias will be towards 
trading the short side.

    14-15052008  ..... 2 negative cycles

    06-09062008  ..... 3 negative cycles - may be volatile on Monday
        (09062008 = market trading around same level as 15052008?)

    27-30062008 .....  negative cycle and market trading around
                             same level as the dates, above ..... ???

On the positive side, we are expecting to be trading long, on:

    24-25072008 ..... positive cycle

Short again ..... 28-29072008 ... negative cycle

Long again .....  04082008 ... positive cycle

                      08-11082008 ... positive cycle

Short again ...  19-20082008 ..... 2 VERY negative aspects.

... any of these may be further fine-tuned for intraday entry/exit TIMES, too.

So, let's see the PRICE traders give us some *forward-looking dates* to trade,
so we can compare market sentiment on those days ..... 

have a great day

   paul



=====


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## wayneL (23 April 2008)

That's it? 

LOL


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## wavepicker (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



wayneL said:


> I've never been able to figure out how to get my broker's statement to show a profit for time (apart fro time premium). It is differential in PRICE that says whether I made a profit or loss. Even time premiums comes down to differential in PRICE.
> 
> However I recognize the importance of time, and use time (loosely) in my trading, but I'm stumped as to how time can be more important tahn price.
> 
> So far, despite questions, nobody has been able to explain this concept.




Time is the only mechanism on the chart that allows you to forecast.
In your options trading, price needs to move to a certain level or change in a given TIME.

- Time is a Contant and Price is not
-Most Pattens you view in price are actually as a results of combinations of Cycles and therefore linked time, so pattern traders are actually using time without even knowing it.

I am not a Gann Trader but I do use time analysis frequently in Dynamic and Fixed Cycles work, but only in conjunction with Price patterns as Mag  does.

How I use time, if I know the cycle is up between 2 cycle points then I trade long, if the cycle is down between 2 cycle point I trade short, it ain't complicated!!


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## Frank D (23 April 2008)

Wayne,

Time is only relevant if you're building trading models that try and forecast, if you don’t use a forecasting model then don’t worry about.  Time becomes irrelevant to your own trading.

Entry, exits, stop-loss, support, resistance are far more important.

A break of support or resistance, or a bounce off support or resistance, isn’t  a pattern based on cycles, it’s about supply and demand at that instance, which a has a random outcome as an end result.

It just so happens that all my support and resistance levels are based on Time and Price variables and variations (example chart below), therefore a valid support level today doesn’t become a valid support level tomorrow, because of the shift in the TIME component: - i.e. Pivots, as per 5-day patterns, or higher timeframes

Because I know you use Pivots, you are using a time variable in your trading method. 

It’s then up to me to develop trading strategies that are all based on price variables ;- ie  entry, exit, stop loss, therefore Price becomes far more important than Time if you are a trader.

 I’ve been using 'time and price' models far longer than most people, and Time is an important factor when building a ‘predictive’ Model, which helpS anticipate moves in the market, but in reality Price is the most important thing when I’m trading.

 Time won’t make you money, Price does!  Unless it’s Time in the market.


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## Timmy (23 April 2008)

opcorn:


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## gazelle (23 April 2008)

Thats it LOL . You seem to be pretty ANTI Gann . After all you started The NON Gann thread ? Gann is not a perfect system , it is based on alot of seasonal and geometric timing componets that are described in The Commodity Course and if you have taken the time to study this material or similar books you would understand the importance of balancing time against price ,This is a key componet and should be used in conjunction with other factors like Anniversary Dates and Seasonal time , its not a silver bullet and doesnt work all the time but it is a timing mechanism .  You want people who have studied Gann for the past 5 - 10 years to loosely hand out imformation and systematically break their system down for you to ridicule . If you are serious about learning Elliot or Gann go straight to the source do the work , get the foundations down and then you might have something to work with and contribute . I am sure your a nice guy , its the same with me , I could poke holes in Elliot , but I havent really studied his material in any great depth so I am not qualified in this regard , others like Wavepicker have done the work here and I can learn from them


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## Trembling Hand (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trembling Hand said:


> Or more importantly why introduce false data into someones analysis that seems to be reasonably new at the game. When at that stage pattern identification and memory and opportunity identification is so important to learn the RIGHT way the first time. Why waste time when starting out looking at prices that aren't real.




You still haven't addressed my main point that this game is pattern recognition and a newbies first task is recognizing patterns. The right patterns. With a price bar you have 4 bits of info. With an XJO chart 25% of that info is RUBBISH. If you traded stocks would you make a bar chart with the open ALWAYS at yesterdays close irrespective of where it opened that day? As you have said Time is more important to you fine. But as I said in the first post about this looking at an XJO chart when trying to trade the SPI is going to show you data or opportunities that just aren't there. And with a new trader that is going to be a step in the wrong direction... BUT you must disagree?



Trader Paul said:


> and you may wish to fry your brain trying to scalp a few points intraday, but using a
> longer-term stance, with a lower *overall* risk profile and less frequent
> trades is an attractive proposition to some traders .....
> 
> ...




I think you may find you are on the wrong end of your own zero sum game with arrogance here mate. I believe that people who have seen my long term results and volume of SPI trades I do know that I have a pretty good record in picking SPI patterns.



Trader Paul said:


> As for the gaps in the SPI ..... as explained, much of the day's session
> moves are already anticipated by traders taking positions in the overnight
> market and selling/buying at the open of the day session ..... so, the day
> and night sessions are really two *different* markets, with traders
> ...




thanks for that wisdom.


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## gazelle (23 April 2008)

Trembling Hand , Identifying and determing the possible outcome of a price pattern is of great importance . Certain stocks or Commodities might have a behavioural  tendency to react  in a particular maner after a price or time trigger . Mclarenn goes into detail on this subject looking at false breaks and counter trend reactions and at what stage of the trend these formations take place . Its a good series .


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## wayneL (23 April 2008)

gazelle said:


> Thats it LOL . You seem to be pretty ANTI Gann . After all you started The NON Gann thread ? Gann is not a perfect system , it is based on alot of seasonal and geometric timing componets that are described in The Commodity Course and if you have taken the time to study this material or similar books you would understand the importance of balancing time against price ,This is a key componet and should be used in conjunction with other factors like Anniversary Dates and Seasonal time , its not a silver bullet and doesnt work all the time but it is a timing mechanism .  You want people who have studied Gann for the past 5 - 10 years to loosely hand out imformation and systematically break their system down for you to ridicule . If you are serious about learning Elliot or Gann go straight to the source do the work , get the foundations down and then you might have something to work with and contribute . I am sure your a nice guy , its the same with me , I could poke holes in Elliot , but I havent really studied his material in any great depth so I am not qualified in this regard , others like Wavepicker have done the work here and I can learn from them




No I'm not anti Gann at all, just wanted some questions answered. It's just that some Gannists are pretty slippery when it comes to questions, you have to admit that. But you, Paul, WP and Frank have done a lot of answering on the time question, which I really appreciate.

BTW the LOL was misinterpreted. It was a LOL because that's pretty much how I understood it and was expecting something completely different... should have added a smiley or something.

Cheers


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## Trembling Hand (23 April 2008)

Gazelle. Sorry not sure what your trying to say.


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## professor_frink (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trembling Hand said:


> You still haven't addressed my main point that this game is pattern recognition and a newbies first task is recognizing patterns. The right patterns. With a price bar you have 4 bits of info. With an XJO chart 25% of that info is RUBBISH. If you traded stocks would you make a bar chart with the open ALWAYS at yesterdays close irrespective of where it opened that day? As you have said Time is more important to you fine. But as I said in the first post about this looking at an XJO chart when trying to trade the SPI is going to show you data or opportunities that just aren't there. And with a new trader that is going to be a step in the wrong direction... BUT you must disagree?




If you are looking for a change in trend on a particular date, it really shouldn't matter if you are looking at the cash or futs- they turn on the same day. How the bar looks on the chart for that particular day is largely irrelevant for this type of analysis, except for the fine tuning an entry point. I have position traded XJO options in the past without using the SPI chart at all, and it's not been a problem


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## Trembling Hand (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*

professor_frink yep agree. fine, fine. :

Still think it's worth pointing out the possible problems with a XJO chart to a newbie.

By the way, where has zenin gone. Other than hand drawing charts we aren't even sure what application he was looking at using.


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## wayneL (23 April 2008)

gazelle said:


> After all you started The NON Gann thread ?




BTW, there is a SPI thread for Gann analysis here; https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4875&highlight=spi+gann+techniques

It's got a few cobwebs on it, but it would be interesting to kick it off again. I'm sure there would be plenty of interest.

Cheers


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## gazelle (23 April 2008)

Wayne , Gann used certain geometric squares and custom squares . This is where the balancing of time and price comes into the equation . Gann would look for time and price to come into balance and when these two componets were in harmony we could look for a possible change in trend . Squares were an important part of his analysis and he used several squares for several markets . Looking at the square of 144 , it is a complicated process and you need to ensure that your chart scales ( time and price ) are balanced otherwise the true geometric balance will be skewed . try setting up a 1x 1 angle on the DJIA as I discussed in previous post and you can begin to understand the difficulties , I mainly stick with Commodities and some Indexes as they lend themselves to this particular line of operation . Everything is interconnected when it comes to seasonal time , 360 deg is equivalent to 1440 as there are 1440 mins in a day , 180 deg is equivalent to 720 as there are 720mins in half a day ( See Circle 24 post ) so the square of 144 like other squares needs to be set against the chart . if you assigned an arbritary no like 4c per day you would complete the square in 144 days and be up 576 pts which is not balanced , if you went up 72 pts in time in 72 days you would be 1/2 square in time and 1/2 square in price , if you went up 144 pts in 72 days you would be against the 2 x1 , just because 144 has expired doesnt always constitute a trend change , price could be up 96 pts in 48 days against the 90 deg angle , there are alot of subtle geometric applications just within this square so balancing your co ordinates and setting up your chart properly is very important , hope that helps


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## Trader Paul (23 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



professor_frink said:


> If you are looking for a change in trend on a particular date, it really shouldn't matter if you are looking at the cash or futs- they turn on the same day. How the bar looks on the chart for that particular day is largely irrelevant for this type of analysis, except for the fine tuning an entry point. I have position traded XJO options in the past without using the SPI chart at all, and it's not been a problem





..... thank you, Professor ..... hats off to you ..... !~! .....  

have a great day

  paul



=====


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## zenin (24 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trembling Hand said:


> professor_frink yep agree. fine, fine. :
> 
> Still think it's worth pointing out the possible problems with a XJO chart to a newbie.
> 
> By the way, where has zenin gone. Other than hand drawing charts we aren't even sure what application he was looking at using.




Zenin is still around TH. Just been away from the forum for a little while. 

Currently i'm in a demo mode viewing charts for the ASX Mini via IG Markets...any opinions their service (ASX Mini) for a new small time SPI trade? 

Is their tick for tick during the course of the day following the real time SPI? 

Thanks again Zenin


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## Trembling Hand (25 April 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



zenin said:


> Currently i'm in a demo mode viewing charts for the ASX Mini via IG Markets...any opinions their service (ASX Mini) for a new small time SPI trade?
> 
> Is their tick for tick during the course of the day following the real time SPI?
> 
> Thanks again Zenin




The ASX has a mini futures contract that is useless. No one trades it and the spread is miles apart. The IG mini contract is linked to the SPI tick for tick but may be set at a diff price. The the moves are the same. 

Don't be sucked in by the "Free" brokerage of these index CFDs. If  you are trading the same size as the Futures contract you are much better trading the real market and paying a smaller spread and brokerage, its cheaper. Although there are not a bad place to start if you are trading longer term and learning without risking lots of $$.

CMC has an even smaller contract @ $1 per tick which maybe better than paper trading.


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## zenin (3 May 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trembling Hand said:


> The ASX has a mini futures contract that is useless. No one trades it and the spread is miles apart. The IG mini contract is linked to the SPI tick for tick but may be set at a diff price. The the moves are the same.
> 
> Don't be sucked in by the "Free" brokerage of these index CFDs. If  you are trading the same size as the Futures contract you are much better trading the real market and paying a smaller spread and brokerage, its cheaper. Although there are not a bad place to start if you are trading longer term and learning without risking lots of $$.
> 
> CMC has an even smaller contract @ $1 per tick which maybe better than paper trading.




Many Thanks TH!


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## macca (3 May 2008)

Hi all,

I might just add that CMC do have $1 ticks but do not follow the SPI like IG.

They have their own numbers which usually follow the SPI tick for tick in movement but not in price whereas IG forward contracts seem to mimic SFE SPI prices.

City Index is another with $1 ticks and also seem to follow the SPI quite closely.

HTH


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## Hyerczyk (6 May 2008)

wayneL said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Regarding "angles"; maybe you can answer the burning question many a Gann doubter has always had.
> 
> ...




Working with the angles takes time and experimentation.

I can offer you this quote from Gann's Master Egg Course as a guideline.  As far as I know this is the only time he wrote about Gann angle construction.

This is the only trade that I have ever found where Gann actually pulled the trigger using angles.  A lot of his writings in his courses and books are just hypothetical examples of how to use the swing charts.  

Gann was working an egg chart.  In the article he interchanged ratios and degrees.

"I wired Chicago last night that October Eggs was a sure sale today.  The reasons were as follows:  Based on the angles on the daily high and low chart, the angle of 4x1 which moves 2 1/2 points per day from the first top at 4760 made December 6, 1943, crossed 5020.  The 45 degree angle moving up from the low of 4685 on March 16, 1949, crossed at 5020.  The angle of 67 1/2 degrees, which moves up 20 points per day from the low of 4785 on April 18, crossed at 5020 and the angle moving up from 4735 on February 14 crossed at 5005, making 4 important angles coming out at this high point.  A sure point for great resistance because the time from the starting of the option was over 6 months.  The time from the first important top on December 6, 1948, was close to 5 months and the angle from this top called the top exactly."

Here is the best part and the basis of my experimentation.

"Since receiving 1 letter stating that the contracts for Eggs were changed on February 1 and that 1 point now equals $1.44, I did some experimenting to adjust angles to the money value because that is very important.  I wanted to get something that would work to an angle of 11 1/4 degrees and by multiplying 144 x 8 it gave 1152 or $11.52 profit on 8 points.  This would give an angle 5x4 or about 39 degrees, moving up at the rate of 8 points per day, instead of the 45 degree angle which moves 10 points per day."

So you can see that in 1948, at least 39 years after he first started trading and 7 years before he died, he was still making adjustments to his angles using the dollar value of 1 point.

The other thing to note is how many markets during his day were based on 8ths.  Remember he used the 45 degree angle.  360 degrees divided by 8 = 45.  Soybeans, Corn, Wheat and Stocks traded in 8ths also.

I work with the minimum move first then work up.  For example 1/32 for bonds, but actually use 4/32.  1/8 for soybeans, corn and wheat but actually 1 cent per day.  (I don't have the room for gigantic charts).  Silver is 1 cent per day, gold is $1.00 per day.  Because I want to fit the data on a workable chart, I scale up to 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 cents per day in Silver and 1, 2, 4, $8.00 per week in Gold.

Stocks posed a problem because I had so much research on 1/8 moves or .125.  I now start with .01 then work up in the same way .01, .02, .04, .08.

The best advice I can offer you is to start with the minimum move then work up in a geometric fashion. Something like this:

Daily 1 cent
Weekly 2 cents
Monthly 4 cents.

The hardest markets to determine are Live Cattle, Lean Hogs and Sugar.







I hope this helps you.

Best Wishes,

Jim


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## Hyerczyk (6 May 2008)

*Re: Data SPI*



Trader Paul said:


> ..... thank you, Professor ..... hats off to you ..... !~! .....
> 
> have a great day
> 
> ...




But as we all know, there is a difference between a top, bottom and change in trend.  A change in trend may occur upto 45 days after a top or bottom.  

I find a lot of newsletter writers using these terms interchangeably when in fact they are two different terms.


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## Hyerczyk (6 May 2008)

gazelle said:


> Hello  James  . Most people do  not understand or appreciate  the basic geometric principles that are involved in the proper scaling of a Gann chart  .  I am embarrased to say that I havent read your book in its entirety but I hope to get hold of it soon and study it . Do you still keep hand drawn chrts or do you print and scale your trades through Gann Trader . for me this is a reasonable compromise and allows me to do most things properly .




I use Ganntrader to make the chart then fill it in.  I also have blank chart paper.  

Geometric angles can be hard to explain if you go in that direction.  I read a lot of math articles and it seems new things are being discovered everyday.


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## Hyerczyk (6 May 2008)

Early in my career I used to waste a lot of time trying to defend technical analysis and Gann.  Mostly because being in Chicago, the floor traders thought they were gods.  It wasn't until I was able to show them what their average win was and how they only made money because of the edge, that many of them realized they weren't the great trader they thought they were.  
My favorite trick was to show these traders that at $7.00 a trade, most of them were losers.  Many of them never learned why they made money.  The failure rate from the floor to the electronic platform is staggering.

Even in the Gann community I still find people attacking others. 

It's almost like a religion to some.  

I find this Aussie group friendly and knowledgeable. 

Just to let you know where I come from, I have no ego when it comes to Gann analysis and trading.  I am constantly trying to get better.  This is why I get up at 1 am to go to the Aussie stock forum.  My wife and 3 daughters make sure that my ego stays checked.

As a trader and analyst I welcome all comments and criticisms.  I usually try to stick with facts that I have verified.  I think I have survived in this business because of one rule I try to follow:

1.  I am as good as my last trade.

Gann analysis is just a tool for me.  It's what gives me my edge. 

The way I look at it I'm somewhere between a guy who digs ditches all day then makes Gann charts at night and a professional who has access to order flow. I'm better than the latter, but can't beat the guy holding the cards.

When I trade, I let the charts take me to the zones where I anticipate activity, but actually pull the trigger when I see the order flow at this zone and have a lean. 

I've learned this in 26 years, the markets trade toward size not Gann angles, moving averages, etc., etc.  So when there is size on the bid in my zone, I buy.  I've seen Gann traders get killed just putting an order where a Gann angle is suppose to be.  Just like I've seen Elliott wave traders get killed putting an order on a Fib number.

Look at how many times an angle or Fib number has been penetrated, then regained.  The novice Gann trader puts an order in ahead of time without knowing the order flow at the angle.  The professional reads the order flow at the angle.  If Level II shows that there are 1000 shares bid on the Gann angle at $50.00 and 10,000 shares at $49.75.  Guess what, the angle won't hold.  

As a professional I work my order this way.  Size has to be there because I am not big enough to stop the market.  If I miss the bottom so what.  I can always get in when the market regains the angle.  

Anyway, this is how I trade.  When I analyze to set up the trade, I throw everything I can into finding out where, when and why the market may go to a certain point, then wait for my lean to show up.  If size doesn't come in, then I won't trade it.  My charts look like maps of latitude and longitude.  I want something to happen in the box I have created.  That something is order flow.  As I said before, time and sales prints the chart, not the other way around.

I guess you can say that I analyze to find entry zones, but I only enter when I know my out.  If I can't find an out, I don't get in.  Take a look at how many entry signals people have versus their exits.  Most poor traders have sloppy exits.

Gotta start my work now.  Talk to you soon.

Good Trading,

Jim  




The best thing I ever learned is that time and sales print the chart.


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## Hyerczyk (7 May 2008)

RichKid said:


> Hi Jim
> 
> Welcome to Aussie Stock Forums!
> 
> ...





My surname is pronounced as Higher-Check.


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## gazelle (7 May 2008)

Thanks James . Very interesting ,  Establishing a geometric balance between time and price co ordinates can be a tricky excercise depending on what instrument is being charted  . I use 12 grids to the inch chart paper , Having spent some time with Ganntrader ( which is a very comprehensive programme ) I decided to go back to hand scaled charts on 12 grid charting paper .  on a monthly  chart the scale might move up 12.00 in 12 months or 1.00 per month so if we have a major low at 360.00 on January 1st 2000  our 45 deg angle would be at 372.00 on the 1st January 2001 . for a  90 deg angle we would double the price scale so on the 1st January 2001 price would be 384.00 and against the 2x1 angle . Initially I did have some difficulty scaling my squares against the chart because it was 8 grids to the inch which isnt calibrated to suit square 144 or square 52 . There can a fair degree of subjectivity in scaling a chart and Gann trader is calibrated at 2 4 8 16 32 64 price divisors which provide the user with a scaling alternative depending on what they are charting so determining a true scale between time and price can be difficult . Gann said 1 point or 1.00 per time unit  is a good measure  and if we look at this in more detail over different time scales the results are interesting . Starting with a yearly chart lets say we do an excercise . 

Stock XYZ 
FTD Jan 1st 1950
List price 100.00 
1.00 per year scale 
Running out 58 years to 2008 the 45 deg angle would be at 158.00
The 90 deg angle would be at 216.00 in 2008 

Monthly Angle 
1.00 per month scale 
Runing out 696 mths ( 58 years ) the 45 deg angle  would be at 796.00
The 90 deg angle would be at 1492 

If we assigned 1.00 per week the outcome would differ greatly as there are 3016 weeks in 58 years so just working with the monthly and yearly time periods provide us with a few angles to work with .  Sometimes the trend will turn on angles but time is the most important factor . alot of people do get blinded by angles especially on computer charts and miss the big picture . 

Regards Gazelle


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