# Israel - Palestine



## luutzu (24 July 2014)

Why is what Israel doing to the Palestinian somehow justifiable?


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## Julia (24 July 2014)

I'd also like an answer to that question.


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## noco (24 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> Why is what Israel doing to the Palestinian somehow justifiable?




If someone gave you punch on the nose are you not going to retaliate or are would you turn the other cheek.

FCS.....Hamas fired some 2000 rockets into Israel in the past 2 weeks. What would expect them to do?

Hamas builds up their arsenal and lets fly at Israel every two years.

If Indonesia fired 2000 rockets onto Australian soil in two weeks , what do you think we Australians should do?


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## bellenuit (24 July 2014)

I certainly think Israel is very heavy handed in its response to the rocket fire from Gaza. 

Although not trying to shift responsibility away from Israel, I certainly think what is happening would not happen were it not for the fact that many in the West, particularly those on the Left, almost completely ignore what Hamas are doing and the fact that Hamas are using them as useful idiots.

If instead of having one sided demonstrations condemning Israel, people took to the streets to condemn Hamas whenever they fire rockets at Israel from Gaza and call Hamas out for what they are, a ruthless terrorist organisation that will use its own children for its political purposes. 

Hamas knows that by attacking Israel with rocket fire, Israel will have no choice but to respond forcibly and there will be large casualties on the Palestinian side. It is impossible to avoid, as Gaza is a very densely populated area and the rockets are fired from close to schools and hospitals. But Hamas wants large casualties on its own side, because they know that many in the West are so myopic in their views that they will ignore what Hamas is doing and just concentrate on and condemn what Israel does in response. This is a political victory as far as they are concerned and they see that as worthwhile even it it means death and injury to their own people, even the children.

As far as I can see, the only way to stop the atrocities is to make it politically unpalatable for Hamas to continually fire on Israel. Perhaps seeing thousands on the streets burning their flags instead of Israel's and demonstrations at Iranian embassies who is one of its main backers, would go a long way to achieving that.

(ps excuse my awful grammar above - rushing to get it done)


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## luutzu (24 July 2014)

noco said:


> If someone gave you punch on the nose are you not going to retaliate or are would you turn the other cheek.
> 
> FCS.....Hamas fired some 2000 rockets into Israel in the past 2 weeks. What would expect them to do?
> 
> ...




When I was eleven years old, and this is a true story, I saw a kid a couple of years younger on a fruit tree picking these small sweet fruits.

The guy was minding his own business but I tell him to come down because I was sitting here and his dirt is all over me... so he climbed down and I saw the fruits... Seeing that he was a puny kid who listens, I demand he give me his pickings. He said no, it's his and I said look! And before i knew it, he gave me a bloodied nose and ran away.

So it depends.

Don't take this to be that I condone Hamas or violence or anti-Semitic or a lefty pacifist... but come on, last I check Australia doesn't control any aspect of Indonesian's life and liberty.


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## Macquack (24 July 2014)

noco said:


> If someone gave you punch on the nose are you not going to retaliate or are would you turn the other cheek.
> 
> FCS.....Hamas fired some 2000 rockets into Israel in the past 2 weeks. What would expect them to do?
> 
> ...




It is not acceptable to kill innocent women and children in the name of retaliation.

Israel has the big stick and is using it recklessly.

Israel has adopted a unofficial policy of killing 20 Palastinians for every 1 Israeli soldier killed.

Israel is an arrogant oppressor.

If the US cut them loose, Israel would not get away with these atrocities.


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## luutzu (24 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I certainly think Israel is very heavy handed in its response to the rocket fire from Gaza.
> 
> Although not trying to shift responsibility away from Israel, I certainly think what is happening would not happen were it not for the fact that many in the West, particularly those on the Left, almost completely ignore what Hamas are doing and the fact that Hamas are using them as useful idiots.
> 
> ...




I think it would be a tragic mistake to think that Hamas is the problem.

My wife wasn't home so I made a mistake of watching the news with my four year old daughter... then suddenly, there's a clip of a Palestinian kid her age trapped under rubbles, reaching out to people who were trying to free her. I quickly turn it off but my daughter almost froze, then ask me why the girl was stuck and her house broken... 

In all my wisdom I said because someone shoot a rocket and it fall over... anyway, don't call DOCS but the kid was close to tears and after a while said "I wouldn't like it if someone do that to my house..."

We can blame Hamas if we want to but i don't think any Palestinians need any brainwashing to fight back with whatever they can after decades of these Israeli "defenses".

Which brings us to a bigger question: Who's going to win this war?

Of course Hamas, being a weak power, must hide among the people. That's just the art of war. The question you got to ask is why the people support them - because they rise from the people. Does that then mean the people deserve it? Even those three kids playing on the beach, in broad daylight, being blown up?

I'm not sure what Israel's strategy is at all. To "mow the lawn" every couple of years?
To keep on keeping the Palestinians segregated, control its economy and development, keep it weak so it cannot properly fight back? And hope that the world will look the other way? Hope that the American public will be too busy to turn on youtube and not just the mass media on TV?

I've read and watch a fair bit of history. I know a fair bit of what happened to the Jewish people - from when the Roman put down the Jewish rebellion and disperse them; to WW2 then the Zionist fights against the British until the state of Israel was declared... 

But seeing what has been happening, what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, I seriously think that the Israeli gov't think that the tragedy of WW2 on their people give them the right to do whatever they want; that the people of the world feel sympathy for them because they're "God's chosen people" and not because of the horror and crime committed on them.


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## bellenuit (25 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> I think it would be a tragic mistake to think that Hamas is the problem.
> 
> My wife wasn't home so I made a mistake of watching the news with my four year old daughter... then suddenly, there's a clip of a Palestinian kid her age trapped under rubbles, reaching out to people who were trying to free her. I quickly turn it off but my daughter almost froze, then ask me why the girl was stuck and her house broken...
> 
> ...




I am not suggesting Hamas is the cause of the Israel/Palestinian problem. That is something with very deep roots and I am not sure whether it ever will be or is resolvable. I also think Israel is making a resolution almost impossible by its continuing settlement of Jews on Palestinian land.  

But I do think Hamas is responsible for the immediate conflict that is currently occurring and taking so many lives. I think it was a deliberate act in order to get Israel to retaliate. I think it is quite different to an armed resistance struggle and they are deliberately endangering their own people because they want high death rates so that Israel will be condemned on the international stage and Hamas can claim a political and moral victory. And as I said before, I don't think Hamas would take this action if they thought for one moment that they, rather than Israel, would be the focus of condemnation and protest.


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## So_Cynical (25 July 2014)

The west bank and Gaza are basically Israeli ghettos, a place for the 2nd class, non Jewish Israelis to live.


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## Macquack (25 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> I think it would be a tragic mistake to think that Hamas is the problem.
> 
> My wife wasn't home so I made a mistake of watching the news with my four year old daughter... then suddenly, there's a clip of a Palestinian kid her age trapped under rubbles, reaching out to people who were trying to free her. I quickly turn it off but my daughter almost froze, then ask me why the girl was stuck and her house broken...
> 
> ...




Brilliant post.


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 July 2014)

*Re: Israel - Palestinew*

I cannot understand how there is so much sympathy for Hamas, an organisation whose aim is to remove or kill every Jew from Israel/Palestine.

The Arabs need to look at a map of the area. 

Israel takes up a tiny area geographically.

Arabs need to man up and make peace with Israel. 

This conflict will persist otherwise. 

gg


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## Macquack (25 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> The west bank and Gaza are basically Israeli ghettos, a place for the 2nd class, *non Jewish Israelis* to live.




I don't think Palestinians would like to be called "non Jewish Israelis"!

It is all Palestine to the Palestinians.


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## SirRumpole (25 July 2014)

I don't know who is at fault in Gaza, I just think we should keep out of it.

The US has supplied Israel with a lot of arms. I don't generally hold with giving people weapons to settle disputes but Israel is virtually isolated in the area when it comes to allies. Israel has probably turned these weapons from defensive to offensive and I think Israel is over armed. This doesn't make for any desire to concilliate, it just gives them more power to use weapons to enforce a position.

John Kerry expressed his displeasure with Israel in an unguarded moment where he didn't mean to say something on camera. If the US wants a solution in Gaza, then the first step is not to supply them with any more weapons. Try and get them into a position where they have to negotiate a resolution in the UN.


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## So_Cynical (25 July 2014)

Macquack said:


> I don't think Palestinians would like to be called "non Jewish Israelis"!
> 
> It is all Palestine to the Palestinians.




Sure but it is all Israel at the moment..the Israeli defence force is Killing Israeli citizens in Israel, and some how this is considered acceptable or at least justifiable...the Jewish part of Israel protecting its self from the non Jewish part of Israel.

All quite bizarre.


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## Macquack (25 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Sure but it is all Israel at the moment..the *Israeli defence force is Killing Israeli citizens in Israel*, and some how this is considered acceptable or at least justifiable...the Jewish part of Israel protecting its self from the non Jewish part of Israel.
> 
> All quite bizarre.




Good point.


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## DB008 (25 July 2014)

While Israel stays as a proxy for the USA, nothing will happen.

However, Hammas does have a case to answer for. How tunnels has Israel found?


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 July 2014)

In this conversation it seems that the combined Arab ideal, to anhillate the Jewish nation, Israel , has been lost in the comments. 

For Israel, this is an existential fight. 

The corollary of defeat is Shoah.

gg


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## Macquack (25 July 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> In this conversation it seems that the combined Arab ideal, to anhillate the Jewish nation, Israel , has been lost in the comments.
> 
> *For Israel, this is an existential fight*.
> 
> ...




Have a look at DB008's post, Israel is doing alright for itself.


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## Julia (25 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know who is at fault in Gaza, I just think we should keep out of it.
> 
> The US has supplied Israel with a lot of arms. I don't generally hold with giving people weapons to settle disputes but Israel is virtually isolated in the area when it comes to allies. Israel has probably turned these weapons from defensive to offensive and I think Israel is over armed. This doesn't make for any desire to concilliate, it just gives them more power to use weapons to enforce a position.
> 
> John Kerry expressed his displeasure with Israel in an unguarded moment where he didn't mean to say something on camera. If the US wants a solution in Gaza, then the first step is not to supply them with any more weapons. Try and get them into a position where they have to negotiate a resolution in the UN.



+1.
Israel is even bombing refugee shelters and hospitals.  How can that be justified?
Thanks for illustration, DB.


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## luutzu (25 July 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> In this conversation it seems that the combined Arab ideal, to anhillate the Jewish nation, Israel , has been lost in the comments.
> 
> For Israel, this is an existential fight.
> 
> ...




Israel has nukes, the world's most advanced weaponry... who will or can get rid of them?


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 July 2014)

Macquack said:


> Have a look at DB008's post, Israel is doing alright for itself.




Too right Israel is doing ok for itself. 

Unlike Palestine it is not led by a mob of misogynist old men fed by a theocratic ideology more suited to medieval times. 

Israel has expanded each time it has been attacked. 

I don't see why the Arab Nations cannot look after the Palestinians. 

I'd back Israel any old day over their foes. 

gg


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## luutzu (25 July 2014)

*Re: Israel - Palestinew*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> I cannot understand how there is so much sympathy for Hamas, an organisation whose aim is to remove or kill every Jew from Israel/Palestine.
> 
> The Arabs need to look at a map of the area.
> 
> ...




Asking the Arabs to take the Palestinians in is like asking White people or Brown or Yellow people to take their kind in when another group want to take their land.

Those Palestinians rich or fortunate enough to be able to get out have already done so, long ago. Those who are there now have no where to go. They can't even cross the roads without the Israeli's saying so.

Most importantly, it's their land, why should they leave? I mean, whatever borders were in 1948 or established by the UN for Israel and Palestine in 1967 [?]... Israel ignores them and build settlements anyway, or use the Bible and religious "facts" and put claim to any town mentioned in it as Israel's.

With the new and ever expanding Jewish settlements... they don't just build a few thousand houses on Palestinian land, they bulldoze everything within, i can't recall the exact number, but they clear a safety perimeter around those settlements - on Palestinians land. And to get to those new settlements, they build roads, on which no Palestinians are permitted to use.

What you call peace most people call oppression, colonisation.


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## noco (25 July 2014)

Julia said:


> +1.
> Israel is even bombing refugee shelters and hospitals.  How can that be justified?
> Thanks for illustration, DB.




Julia, from what I understand, Hamas have their rocket launches strategically placed near schools and hospitals as a human shield to avoid retaliation by Israel.......I believe Israel drops leaflets of an intended attack on these rocket positions to avoid civilian injury......Hamas do not care if a few woman and children are killed because they know they will get world publicity curtsey of the media....anything to make Israel look bad in the eyes of the world. 

Hamas have something like 11 tunnels under Israel where they transport there rockets into position without being detected

I just cannot believe how Hamas can send 2000 rockets into Israel within 2 weeks  without provocation....I mean what is Israel supposed to do?......just sit there and take it.......Hamas has provoked the Israelis .......it is a well known fact the Arabs want to dispose of Israel.


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## bellenuit (25 July 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Too right Israel is doing ok for itself.
> 
> Unlike Palestine it is not led by a mob of misogynist old men fed by a theocratic ideology more suited to medieval times.




Agreed GG. Again reiterating that I think Israel may be going beyond acceptable defence strategies, we should never forget what Israel is up against. This is a couple of years old, but not out of date and symptomatic of Hamas thinking.

*PA Mufti: Muslims' destiny is to kill Jews*

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098


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## IFocus (25 July 2014)

What a mess never to be solved ever.

Israel, land seized off people who had been living there for generations and forced into camps because off a book that said they were the chosen ones. Now a county militarized and backed by the biggest industrialised military complex thats ever existed on this planet.

Palestinian areas populated by lunatics who kill each other along tribal, ethic and religious lines going back generations now forced into areas marginalised by Israel who decide who and what goes in and out and that the Palestinians cannot fish off their own shores.

Israel promotes and ferments destabilization in the Palestinian lands allowing hard liners to move in and force moderates out (moderates will bring stability and thats a problem for Israel) . Hard liners supported, financed and armed  by regional /outside powers wanting influence and leverage against other regional powers and the US.

There is no moral high ground for any side to stand on.


Its a complete mess and in 1000 years time they will still be killing each other in the region just like they were 1000 years ago.


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Agreed GG. Again reiterating that I think Israel may be going beyond acceptable defence strategies, we should never forget what Israel is up against. This is a couple of years old, but not out of date and symptomatic of Hamas thinking.
> 
> *PA Mufti: Muslims' destiny is to kill Jews*
> 
> http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098






IFocus said:


> What a mess never to be solved ever.
> 
> Israel, land seized off people who had been living there for generations and forced into camps because off a book that said they were the chosen ones. Now a county militarized and backed by the biggest industrialised military complex thats ever existed on this planet.
> 
> ...




I agree with you both.

If it came to push/shove, I would support the Israelis over the Palestinians though.

gg


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## McLovin (25 July 2014)

noco said:


> I just cannot believe how Hamas can send 2000 rockets into Israel within 2 weeks  without provocation....I mean what is Israel supposed to do?......just sit there and take it.......Hamas has provoked the Israelis .......it is a well known fact the Arabs want to dispose of Israel.




I think they've had 70 years of provocation.


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## noco (25 July 2014)

*Re: Israel - Palestinew*



luutzu said:


> Asking the Arabs to take the Palestinians in is like asking White people or Brown or Yellow people to take their kind in when another group want to take their land.
> 
> Those Palestinians rich or fortunate enough to be able to get out have already done so, long ago. Those who are there now have no where to go. They can't even cross the roads without the Israeli's saying so.
> 
> ...




From what I understand, the 6 day war on Israel in 1967 by Egypt and other Arab states resulted in a humiliating defeat for the Arabs....they did not succeed in demolishing Israel......General Moshe Dihan had received good intelligence on the impending invasion by the Arabs and was well and truly ready for the confrontation.

It was at that stage Israel occupied the Gaza strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights......Israel eventually relinquished the Gaza Strip back to the Palestinians but continued to occupy the other two areas until this day mainly for strategic reasons........Whether that was right or wrong is not for to say.

I stand corrected if the above information is wrong because I am relying upon my memory of events at the time.


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## luutzu (25 July 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Too right Israel is doing ok for itself.
> 
> Unlike Palestine it is not led by a mob of misogynist old men fed by a theocratic ideology more suited to medieval times.
> 
> ...




You sure about that?

Would a non-Jewish citizen be treated the same as a Jewish tribesman in Israel?
Would Israel ever separate the State from the Jewish faith?

That doesn't sound like any liberal Western democracies that i know of.


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## luutzu (25 July 2014)

noco said:


> ....
> 
> I just cannot believe how Hamas can send 2000 rockets into Israel within 2 weeks  without provocation....I mean what is Israel supposed to do?......just sit there and take it.......Hamas has provoked the Israelis .......it is a well known fact the Arabs want to dispose of Israel.




I saw an interview where a Jewish guy, living in Tel Aviv, said that how the conflict is painted by Israel to the Israeli and the world is this: 

- Israel is going about its business, Hamas and the Palestinians fired rockets at them, they therefore are forced to defend themselves. Regrettably, given Hamas using its people as human shields, what can Israel do but have to defend itself and its people.

He said that when painted, and when seen that way, of course Hamas is asking for it, of course the Palestinians will get killed because no surgical strikes that take out a building couldn't also cause "collateral damage".

Then he points out that if you put context into why those rockets were fired, you'd see things completely differently.

Forget about how Israel was established on Palestinian land, how the Palestinians were pushed and killed to make way; forget about the new settlements just keep on expanding... and just look at how 3-4 generations of Palestinians have been treated in the past 50 years. 

There are checkpoints everywhere, trade embargoes, closed borders... and on top of it, there are systematic terrorism by the IDF on the Palestinians during peace time.

In an interview with a former IDF soldier, who head the group "breaking the silence" [?] - where former IDF soldiers come together to share and tell the world the kind of things they were trained to do. He said that his unit, assigned to the West Bank, were constantly involved in operations where they were sent into Palestinian territories to show their presence - by firing guns into the air, knocks on doors, break down doors during the middle of the night to practice arresting real Palestinians.

And he said he thought it's only his unit, but it's the same from every soldier he met.


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## luutzu (26 July 2014)

*Re: Israel - Palestinew*



noco said:


> From what I understand, the 6 day war on Israel in 1967 by Egypt and other Arab states resulted in a humiliating defeat for the Arabs....they did not succeed in demolishing Israel......General Moshe Dihan had received good intelligence on the impending invasion by the Arabs and was well and truly ready for the confrontation.
> 
> It was at that stage Israel occupied the Gaza strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights......Israel eventually relinquished the Gaza Strip back to the Palestinians but continued to occupy the other two areas until this day mainly for strategic reasons........Whether that was right or wrong is not for to say.
> 
> I stand corrected if the above information is wrong because I am relying upon my memory of events at the time.




Secretary of War is now Secretary of Defence; Defence Minister; Department of Defence; Defence Force...

It's always defensive isn't it?

The Israeli is so weak a victim, so good at defence that it controls the entirety of what was Palestine.

I guess there's no surprise then that when Defence is defined and acted like that, dead and traumatised children is a very effective, long term defensive measure... or so it seem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite a realist... but don't expect me to buy the bs about "moral high ground" and self defence fluff when you would rather level an entire building with people living in it because you suspect there's some Hamas or some rocket fired from there and it's safer for you to destroy it completely rather than... i don't know, maybe send your troops there to take a look before you possibly could wipe clean an entire family and everything they have.

I always thought that a moral person would rather let 20 guilty people go rather than risk imprisoning an innocent person. Here, it's rather an entire neighbourhood is flattened than a single ineffective rocket might be launch from it.

While I'm being realistic, it wouldn't surprised me that Israel's bi-annual Defenses on Gaza is both an economic stimulus/population control measure.

It boggles the mind that a group of people whose parents or grandparents had suffered horrible, senseless murder based on their race could one day do the same to another race of people.

I realised that that's not true for a great many Jewish people... but it seems the Israelis Zionists is suffering from some sort of psychopathic sense to  over-compensate for some conceived sense of inferiority that their people are not weak and the Holocaust was not due to Jewish weaknesses - and set about proving it on the Palestinians.

We get it, no one think Jewish are inferior people. Heck, 72 Nobel laureates are of Jewish origin, if that proves something.


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## noco (26 July 2014)

*Re: Israel - Palestinew*



luutzu said:


> Secretary of War is now Secretary of Defence; Defence Minister; Department of Defence; Defence Force...
> 
> It's always defensive isn't it?
> 
> ...




It seems to be a case of kill or be killed.....what choice is there?


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## Julia (26 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> I think they've had 70 years of provocation.






luutzu said:


> Forget about how Israel was established on Palestinian land, how the Palestinians were pushed and killed to make way; forget about the new settlements just keep on expanding... and just look at how 3-4 generations of Palestinians have been treated in the past 50 years.
> 
> There are checkpoints everywhere, trade embargoes, closed borders... and on top of it, there are systematic terrorism by the IDF on the Palestinians during peace time.






luutzu said:


> Here, it's rather an entire neighbourhood is flattened than a single ineffective rocket might be launch from it.



+1 to all above comments.
The Israelis are even bombing hospitals and refugee centres, a UN school.



> It boggles the mind that a group of people whose parents or grandparents had suffered horrible, senseless murder based on their race could one day do the same to another race of people.



Perhaps such is still the passion for revenge.


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## noco (26 July 2014)

Who the real perpetrators in this conflict?.....And who are the real victims?.

The perpetrators are the Hamas extremist.......the victims are the Palestinian people and Hamas does not give a damn about them or the Israelis for that matter.

Hamas is only interested in one thing and that is the elimination of the Jews.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-woos-the-media/story-fn8qlm5e-1227002008491


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## DB008 (26 July 2014)

noco said:


> Who the real perpetrators in this conflict?.....And who are the real victims?.
> 
> The perpetrators are the Hamas extremist.......the victims are the Palestinian people and Hamas does not give a damn about them or the Israelis for that matter.
> 
> ...




*Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement

18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah*​
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


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## noco (26 July 2014)

DB008 said:


> *Hamas Covenant 1988
> The Covenant
> of the
> Islamic Resistance Movement
> ...





That says it all.


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## luutzu (26 July 2014)

*Re: Israel - Palestinew*



noco said:


> It seems to be a case of kill or be killed.....what choice is there?




The video below give a very good summary of the conflict, and directly answer your misconception.

While you're at it, worth checking out Norman Finkelstein's lectures and debates.

The man is of Jewish origin, his parents were Holocaust survivors, his other relations were all killed in the Holocaust. He spent his entire life researching the conflict and I find him among the most intelligent, informed and objective person I've ever listened to.

I used to think I don't have much invested in this conflict and only tend to look it up every now and then when it's on the news. I used to make the same assumptions some of you are making - that Israel is a liberal Western Democracies only defending itself while the Palestinians and all Arabs want Israel's destruction...

But if you dig a bit deeper, you'll find that if you're a fair minded person who care for right from wrong, justice from murder, or merely interested in understanding current affairs, i guaranteed you'll be angry and ashamed of the things Israel is doing in your name, claiming it to be part of what you consider justice or Jewish teaching.

If after a cursory understanding (which is all i have done) and you still believe what you're hearing from Israel, I really feel for you.


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## luutzu (26 July 2014)

noco said:


> Who the real perpetrators in this conflict?.....And who are the real victims?.
> 
> The perpetrators are the Hamas extremist.......the victims are the Palestinian people and Hamas does not give a damn about them or the Israelis for that matter.
> 
> ...




No you're wrong there.

The current conflict (from July 8 2014), according to Dr. Stephen Waltz [?] - a professor of Political Science from Harvard and according to Dr. Finkelstein as I mentioned above, was started by Israel under the pretext of first avenging the deaths of the 3 Israeli youths murdered, and then more broadly of protecting the Israeli from Hamas.

According to Waltz, some in the Israeli media had found that the moment the 3 teenagers were kidnapped, one of them ring the Emergency line... the recording indicate the kidnapper saw this and start firing, and from the recording, it was assumed that the three youths have been killed right there.

Further, no other authority had been able to verify who kidnapped and murdered them, not then and not since. But Israeli's Netanyahu suppress that report on grounds of National security, kept their deaths silent for a few days while he sent the IDF into the West Bank to capture around 100 Hamas soldiers/leaders - Operation Brother's Keeper. Then Hamas started firing rockets and then IDF onto Gaza.

Why did he do it? Waltz and Finkelstein, separately, say that months ago, Hamas and Fatah (the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank) has come to an agreement to resolve their differences to form a unity party. Netanyahu called Washington to intervene, Washington said they want to see how this will work out; he called the EU, same answer...

So the kidnap and murder of 3 Israelis give him a perfect pretext to break up the unity, and according to NF, will allow Israel to not negotiate because it can say that the Abbas and Hamas are not working together, they do not represent the Palestinians, one of them is a terrorist organisation etc. etc.

Sounds like some lunatic conspiracy theory right? But these are from respected academics and expert on the matter, not some nut cases who hates Israel or something.


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## luutzu (27 July 2014)

noco said:


> Hamas is only interested in one thing and that is the elimination of the Jews.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-woos-the-media/story-fn8qlm5e-1227002008491





Seriously, Israel is a nuclear armed, economically powerful, militarily is among the most advanced nation in the world - and it's backed up by the US.

Who CAN seriously do any real damage to Israel's security? China? Russia? Germany?... oh, the Palestinians.

So Hamas hates the Jews, hates Israel... are you going to kill every man and his children if his militant representative hates you? I guess you would if you can do it with impunity.


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## luutzu (27 July 2014)

Julia said:


> +1 to all above comments.
> 
> Perhaps such is still the passion for revenge.




Saw a few interviews with Norman Finkelstein, particularly "the Holocaust Industry" and his research showed how the Holocaust were ab/used for money and power, guilt tripping nations, suppress criticism of Israel, shake down the Swiss Bank for some $1.4 Billion (back in the1980s/1990s), and other political purposes.

He was deeply offended by it and quote a well respected Holocaust scholar having told him he didn't go far enough in his conclusions.

An example he gave was what he called the "Swiss Bank shakedown". Where the Israeli gov't managed to get $1.4 Billions from Swiss Bank, claiming that it was money that were deposited and then stolen from the Jewish people during WW2.

He argued that 1, most Jews in Europe were poor; 2. Those that were well to do would have lost it, or most of it in the Great Depression; 3. Those that were rich still, got the heck out of Germany and would have then took their money out.

So the amount of money was inflated, the number of surviving Holocaust victims were inflated to get $1.4Billion to compensate and help their suffering... and from that, he said maybe $20 million might have been given to the victims and the rest lined the organisation's pockets.

No wonder the guy was fired and couldn't find a job at any University... and banned from Israel.


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## noco (27 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> Seriously, Israel is a nuclear armed, economically powerful, militarily is among the most advanced nation in the world - and it's backed up by the US.
> 
> Who CAN seriously do any real damage to Israel's security? China? Russia? Germany?... oh, the Palestinians.
> 
> So Hamas hates the Jews, hates Israel... are you going to kill every man and his children if his militant representative hates you? I guess you would if you can do it with impunity.




It is pretty evident all the Arab Islamic states are behind Hamas and in particular Iran who want to see the extinction of Israel.


http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/23/i...-crisis-is-israels-destruction/#ixzz38X51zmj8


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2014)

noco said:


> It is pretty evident all the Arab Islamic states are behind Hamas and in particular Iran who want to see the extinction of Israel.
> 
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/23/i...-crisis-is-israels-destruction/#ixzz38X51zmj8




I don't know about Hamas and its origins so I don't know.

From what I've heard from the news debates and interviews, the blockade on Gaza since 2008 [?] and the coup in Egypt recently had made Hamas weak, broke, couldn't pay its employees and was losing support. So they want to join with Fatah in the West Bank and negotiate with Israel... Israel has no interests in peace.

In one of the lectures given by Finkelstein, he cite a study by a former Israeli Foreign or Defense Minister looking at all the wars since the 1948 War of Independence to I think 2008, and that former Minister concludes this: *That of all the wars Israel has been involved in since 1948, maybe, maybe the 1948 war was a war of necessity. All other wars are war either of choice or of folly. *

Lest I'm being accused of being selective and brainwashed... there's a lecture by the son of a famous Israeli general, whose grandparents also fought for Israel at its founding, and who himself was in the IDF, and whose 13 year old niece was killed in a terrorist attack by the Palestinians in a cafe... 

He said that when he went through the transcript of the 1967 war room strategy meetings ... his father, a famous Israeli General, discuss how Israel ought to attack Egypt because Egypt is not ready, won't be ready for at least another year and since they're now on Mt. Sinai [?], it's easier for Israel to attack etc... 

So the war was won, Gaza and the West Bank taken, the world love Israel for being able to defend itself against Arab aggressions...

The man said his father then turn to the question of the Palestinian state and recommend that Israel should define its border, give Palestine theirs, and both will be able to live in peace in each other's State.

Instead, part of the West Bank has already been bulldozed and billions of dollars has already been invested there, and then there's the land of Israel as written in the Bible etc. etc.

Anyway, those who are interested doesn't need me to summarise what I just learn - they can just youtube it themselves; those who aren't interested already have had their mind made up so it's quite useless what i'm doing.


----------



## noco (27 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> I don't know about Hamas and its origins so I don't know.
> 
> From what I've heard from the news debates and interviews, the blockade on Gaza since 2008 [?] and the coup in Egypt recently had made Hamas weak, broke, couldn't pay its employees and was losing support. So they want to join with Fatah in the West Bank and negotiate with Israel... Israel has no interests in peace.
> 
> ...





One of the things that concerns me is the backing and involvement from Iran......They are on the cusp of having nuclear weapons and I fear some Iranian idiot may let lose on Israel with a nuclear war head on a log range missile......if that happens all hell will break out in the middle East.


----------



## banco (27 July 2014)

noco said:


> It is pretty evident all the Arab Islamic states are behind Hamas and in particular Iran who want to see the extinction of Israel.
> 
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/23/i...-crisis-is-israels-destruction/#ixzz38X51zmj8




Good to see those Iranian arabs are supporting their fellow arabs


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 July 2014)

noco said:


> It is pretty evident all the Arab Islamic states are behind Hamas and in particular Iran who want to see the extinction of Israel.
> 
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/23/i...-crisis-is-israels-destruction/#ixzz38X51zmj8






banco said:


> Good to see those Iranian arabs are supporting their fellow arabs




The people of Iran ain't Arab.

They are Persian.

A big difference.

gg


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## banco (27 July 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The people of Iran ain't Arab.
> 
> They are Persian.
> 
> ...




I think that would be news to Noco.


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## noco (27 July 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The people of Iran ain't Arab.
> 
> They are Persian.
> 
> ...




But still and all they do follow the Islamic rules.....so they are all tarred with the same brush IMO.


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## luutzu (27 July 2014)

noco said:


> One of the things that concerns me is the backing and involvement from Iran......They are on the cusp of having nuclear weapons and I fear some Iranian idiot may let lose on Israel with a nuclear war head on a log range missile......if that happens all hell will break out in the middle East.




I don't know the detail of Iran's intentions, not even going to try to guess what they'll do or think.

And you can argue that Iran is insane... but from a purely rational, political science perspective, nuclear weapon is only a defensive weapon. No country, not today, is going to build a nuclear weapon so they can use it on another country, and definitely not on a nuclear power like Israel.

Do you know what will happen if Iran even test a nuclear weapon? Nothing... because no country is going to try to come in and ask questions.

But if Iran were to have nuke, and were to strike at Israel... do you know what will happen to Iran? The entire country of Iran will be pulverised.

If you assume for a moment that Iran is run by an even somewhat rational human being who love their family and their children like we all do... you'll have to conclude that whatever nuke they can build is purely defensive, regardless of the speeches.

If I'm an Iranian, and if I hates the Jews... I seriously do not know why I would put out money, create a weapon, destroy my enemy and also commit myself and my family and my pepole to death. Why would anyone want that?

Personally, there are times in my life when myself or my relatives have been wronged so horribly that I have thought of going up to people's home and break legs and avenge justice and all that... But i stop... .because if i do, i'd be put in prison, lose my job, cannot feed my family. And I value my family, and my liberty, more than vengence.

To think that Iran or any Arab country would want self destruction to avenge their "brothers" or for pure hatred of the Jews is non sense. In fact, research and evidence have shown that the main, one of the main, reasons the Arab extremists commit terrorist acts against Israel and against the US and its allies is because of the continuing destruction of Gaza and the West Bank, because of policies of oppression against the Palestinians.

CIA analysts and other US national security specialists have known this... and this, as Mearsheimer and others have points out, will slowly be realised by the American public and pressure will be put on its leadership to distance itself from Israel. 

That and because of the kind of brutalities used by Israel, the hardliners, the obviously racist policies of Israel against, say Arab/Christian Israelis... these will drive away support from young and idealistic Jewish youths in American and i'm assuming around the world's liberal democracies. And even though these younger generation might be Jewish of faith, their upbringing and the teachings of the faith have been shown to not align with Zionist Israel's policies of oppression.

Without these supports, Israel will soon be in a lot of trouble.

----
A good documentary is "the Gatekeepers" by an Israeli director. It interviewed 5 or 6 former head of Shin Bet [?] - Israel's internal security agency. These guys are involved in all military and security issues of Israel... They're all proud of their work, assassinating the enemies etc... but maybe for one exception, they all say that the wars had not kept Israel safe, that Israel have won all its battles but might not win the war.

The eldest gentleman there said that being an occupying power "...have made us cruel", had turn Israel's youth and its people to the likes of the German in WW2 in their treatment of other people - not as bad as how the Germans were to the Jews, but cruel.

In a modern age, I seriously don't know why you would want a "pure"-something state. But that's just me so let say it is rational and existentially important to the Jewish people to have Israel purely Jewish... the policies Israel has been pursuing will, eventually, be, in the word of Mearsheimer, committing policide - the death of the Jewish-Israeli state. That all the Palestinians need to do, one day when it is obviously clear to everyone that there is no such thing as a Palestinian statehood... all they need to do is march in peace, peacefully resists... and Israel will have no option, no political or moral high grounds to just welcome the now Arab Israelis... and that is the very definition of winning battles but losing the war. 

Though i personally don't think that is a lost...


----------



## bellenuit (28 July 2014)

*Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? (Sam Harris)*

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

I think that article encapsulates what many of us feel about this conflict. Shocked with the overreaction of Israel, but somewhat understanding of the impossible situation they are in.


----------



## basilio (28 July 2014)

That was a very long post by Sam Harris.  I can see some of his points but for another point of view - shorter and to the point consider Mike Carlton's piece.

[







> SIZE=4]*]Israel's rank and rotten fruit is being called fascism*[/SIZE]
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/israe...led-fascism-20140724-zwd2t.html#ixzz38ldkVZQZ
> 
> ...





By the way I have selectively quoted Mikes piece.  The person calling Israels policies "fascist is in fact a Jewish writer. Worth reading the  whole piece.


----------



## luutzu (29 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> *Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? (Sam Harris)*
> 
> http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
> 
> I think that article encapsulates what many of us feel about this conflict. Shocked with the overreaction of Israel, but somewhat understanding of the impossible situation they are in.




What impossible situation is that? Rather kill an entire family or be inconvenient by facts and reason and history?

But whatever let us keep the faith I suppose.

I suppose those kids would grow up to be terrorists anyway, and when they're terrorists, Israel will blow them up anyway... so what's the difference between now and a decade or two later, right?

I doubt very much that *any informed* person in the world feel about this conflict as you do.


----------



## luutzu (29 July 2014)

basilio said:


> That was a very long post by Sam Harris.  I can see some of his points but for another point of view - shorter and to the point consider Mike Carlton's piece.
> 
> 
> By the way I have selectively quoted Mikes piece.  The person calling Israels policies "fascist is in fact a Jewish writer. Worth reading the  whole piece.




Good article, it's refreshing, and rare, to find any article critical or objective of Israel in the mainstream media. 

I don't think it's just the current party in Israel though... Saw some lectures a couple of years ago where the guy said that more and more Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews are settling in Israel while the more moderate and liberal ones pack up and leave.

I saw an interview with a guy in Israel and he laugh at the idea of there being a left or centre/moderate party.


----------



## bellenuit (29 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> I doubt very much that *any informed* person in the world feel about this conflict as you do.




Maybe it depends on who is doing the informing. 

I said I was shocked at the overreaction of Israel. Am I the only one in the world who feels that?

I have said I think they are in an impossible situation. What do you do when your neighbour's ruling elite say their aim is to annihilate you no matter what? That aim is not contingent on the outcome of the conflict between the two, but an absolute goal that they intend to pursue no matter what the outcome. Do you not think that is an impossible situation?  We in the West might have the luxury of treating such a threat to us as just bellicose rhetoric, but if I were Jewish, I might have a very different perspective. Yes, I would like to see the Palestinians have their own state too, but there have been many people more informed than I who have stated over and over that Arafat could have had what they now would accept, but failed to grasp that opportunity.  

Luutzu,  it is obvious that you have strong feelings about what is happening to the Palestinians, but there is not just one opinion about the situation. I am expressing my opinion and if I am the only person in the world that has that opinion, how do you account for the article by Sam Harris? That is his opinion too. Is nobody informed accept those who agree with you? I don't think anyone should injure or kill anyone else, but that doesn't mean I am to ignore Hamas and the role it is playing. They clearly want this to happen. The more Palestinians that get killed and the more graphic the imagery is on TV the better it is for them politically. Have you even considered that one sided reactions such as yours and in particular what now seems a personal attack on other people's (my) opinion on the situation may be exactly what Hamas is trying to evoke? By not  condemning Hamas too, which you seem to have done only in the meekest of terms, you may actually be contributing to what is happening as it only encourages them to pursue the struggle in the way they are doing it. As I said in one of my first posts, Hamas would not be firing rockets at Israel and we would not have had the over the top retaliation that we have seen from Israel, if those in the West were to condemn Hamas for its actions as vociferously as they condemn Israel. 

I don't have a cold heart to the suffering of the Palestinians, but I am also not a pawn to the political strategy of Hamas. Condemnation is deserving to both sides and if I am more forceful in calling out Hamas, maybe it is because I perceive a lack of balance in the general discourse.  

I was unsure if I should contribute to this thread after you started it as I believe the topic is very emotive and issues can quickly become personal. Perhaps I would have been wiser to keep my "uninformed" opinions to myself and not accepted your invitation to comment.


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## bellenuit (29 July 2014)

What "Informed" is, is very subjective.

This was from the BBC Twitter Feed about 2 hours ago....

*Israeli airstrike hits compound of main hospital in Gaza, causing casualties - Palestinian officials*

This is their more recent story on the same incident.....

*Gaza strikes at Al-Shifa Hospital & Al-Shati Refugee Camp appear to be Islamic Jihad fire - Israel military spokesman*

Both links now point to the same updated story.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28529611

Which is true?  I don't know because I know both sides will lie if it is to their political advantage.


----------



## bellenuit (29 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> *Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? (Sam Harris)*
> 
> http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
> 
> I think that article encapsulates what many of us feel about this conflict. Shocked with the overreaction of Israel, but somewhat understanding of the impossible situation they are in.




Thoughtful Jerry Coyne (@EvolutionIsTrue) on thoughtful Sam Harris (Dawkins words).

*Sam Harris on the Israel/Palestine conflict.*

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/sam-harris-on-the-israelpalestine-conflict/


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## bellenuit (29 July 2014)

Again another excellent article that encapsulates how many feel about what is currently going on....

_By Ali A. Rizvi - Pakistani-Canadian writer, physician and musician_

*7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict*

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html


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## luutzu (29 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Maybe it depends on who is doing the informing.
> 
> I said I was shocked at the overreaction of Israel. Am I the only one in the world who feels that?
> 
> ...




Maybe those human rights organisations' reports; the UN Reports into the conflict; history; maybe former Israeli soldiers; maybe studies, research and conclusions by professors of political science from Harvard and Uni of Chicago... 

I thought that would be a good section of academic and objective information.

Did you see in any of those sources opinions and columnists, on any side?

Maybe my own sense of right and wrong, own readings of history and politics and war...

But that's not it though, must be Hamas' PR machine. 


It's amazing that Hamas is committing double crimes against humanity because Hamas fired rockets into Israel indiscriminately (killing 2 Israeli citizens and a foreign maid), and also committing crimes by forcing the Israeli military to fired back non-indiscriminately and kill and maim thousands of civilians.

Honest minds that come up with that, and minds that bought that fluff... wow.

It's like an abusive spouse beating the heck out of the other spouse then blame him/her for forcing it on themselves and making the abuser look and feel bad for doing it.


----------



## luutzu (29 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> *Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? (Sam Harris)*
> 
> http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
> 
> I think that article encapsulates what many of us feel about this conflict. Shocked with the overreaction of Israel, but somewhat understanding of the impossible situation they are in.




That's a scholarly piece of work there.

I wish I could "reason" like that.

Honestly, I didn't read the entire blog... maybe half. The first 1/3 goes on about most Jews don't believe in their Bibles, 'cause those books are bad, worst than the Koran... So Jews are liberal and not religious nuts like the Arabs and their Koran. Is that a fair summary?

Then I love this argument... That Arabs deny the Holocaust, and if it didn't happen, the Arabs want to make it happen and wipe Israel off the map. And you can see this in their teachings and their children's shows...

But the noble Israeli, it's noble and meant the Arabs, meant the Palestinians no harm because how? Because look at what happen when the Israeli could do anything they want to do to the Palestinians? Did they kill all the Palestinians? No! They could if they wanted to, but the fact that they didn't kill all Palestinians meant that they are kind and good and any civilians death, like the killings of those four boys playing soccer on the beach... that of course is an accident, and if not an accident, it's by some rouge solider under a lot of pressure.

Woah!

If a person could beat another person to death, but decided to only beat them half to death... would a judge let that person go and say... yea he's good, he didn't mean it, he's a noble soul because if he wanted to, he could have beat the victim completely to death.



Fact:

Israel controls the electricity, the water, the food, the movement, the leadership, the roads, the sea, the air.... controls everything the Palestinians do or could not do.

Human rights organisations have reported that the food rations to Palestinians are below hunger level while Israel argue that it's hunger level plus.

It's good to know that Palestinians diets and daily caloric intake are monitored too.

---

You know what's sad?
All powerful countries commit crimes and invade weaker countries. 
That's just a fact of life.

It's sad that you actually believe Israel is fighting a just war, fighting for survival like it was 1939. Sad that given all the research and studies and histories, done by scholars, by the UN, testimonies by some Israelis themselves... that you would believe that.


----------



## noco (30 July 2014)

What I have witnessed on this link that is happening in France is frightening to say the least.

Can it happen here?...........Yes it can if we continue to allow more Muslims to enter Australia illegally or legally.

The problem is those who are already here are reproducing at an alarming rate and the ratio is 8 to one the number of rebirths by Australians.

It is generally stated that the majority of Muslims are peace loving and it is the radicals who make all the trouble.

Yes they are all peace loving until they get the numbers and that is when the peace lovers become radicals...they are like a sleeping dog.

Wake up Australia and don't let it happen here. 

I ask the question....why is there so much hatred between the Jews and the Muslims?




http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/inter...as-executes-30-suspected-collaborators-report


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## Macquack (30 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> *Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? (Sam Harris)*
> 
> http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
> 
> I think that article encapsulates what many of us feel about this conflict. Shocked with the overreaction of Israel, but somewhat understanding of the impossible situation they are in.




Sam Harris appears to provide a very balanced view on the conflict, bagging both sides with cutting dialogue.

Harris ultimately comes done on the side of Israel.

Very conveniently, he neglects to reveal that his mother is jewish.

When asked "why don't I criticise Israel", Harris fails to be honest and just come out with the truth, which is, he is biased.


----------



## bellenuit (30 July 2014)

Macquack said:


> Very conveniently, he neglects to reveal that his mother is jewish.
> 
> When asked "why don't I criticise Israel", Harris fails to be honest and just come out with the truth, which is, he is biased.




His mother, Susan Harris, was born in the US of Jewish parents and married a Quaker. She is a TV comedy writer (Benson, Golden Girls). It was a secular upbringing and religion was rarely discussed.

Sam Harris is one of the foremost and respected thinkers of our time and an insightful critic of all religions so to suggest that he must identify his secular mother's religion of birth every time he discuss religion or religious conflict is ludicrous. 

From Wikipaedia: _Harris was raised by a secular Jewish mother and a Quaker father, but has publicly stated that his upbringing was entirely secular._

Although many label him an atheist and he is often identified as one of the four horsemen of atheism (the others being Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens), he himself doesn't like using the term, arguing that the label is both unnecessary and a liability.

He is a critic of all religions, but particularly Islam and asserts (as I think would anyone with half a brain) that the doctrines of Islam are uniquely dangerous to civilisation and it "is not even remotely a religion of peace". He also criticises Judaism and particularly its ancient texts and the whole concept of the state of Israel. This is from his book "*The End of Faith*":

_The gravity of Jewish suffering over the ages, culminating in the Holocaust, makes it almost impossible to entertain any suggestion that Jews might have brought their troubles upon themselves. This is, however, in a rather narrow sense, the truth. [...] the ideology of Judaism remains a lightning rod for intolerance to this day. [...] Jews, insofar as they are religious, believe that they are bearers of a unique covenant with God. As a consequence, they have spent the last two thousand years collaborating with those who see them as different by seeing themselves as irretrievably so. *Judaism is as intrinsically divisive, as ridiculous in its literalism, and as at odds with the civilizing insights of modernity as any other religion. Jewish settlers, by exercising their "freedom of belief" on contested land, are now one of the principal obstacles to peace in the Middle East.*_

I would think if you are going to criticise the article and I am sure there are many aspects of it one could disagree with, you could come up with something better than saying it must be biased because he doesn't stipulate the religion of birth of his mother.


----------



## Macquack (30 July 2014)

I am not the one who neglected to include all the facts.

Like many on ASF, Harris is just a good wordsmith, does not make him right or his opinion any better than anybody else.


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## bellenuit (30 July 2014)

Macquack said:


> I am not the one who neglected to include all the facts.




All *relevant* facts about him are included on his blog. Needing to disclose his mother's defunct religion is, as I said, ludicrous.  



> Like many on ASF, Harris is just a good wordsmith, does not make him right or his opinion any better than anybody else.




Of course. So why don't you discuss what part of his article you disagree with rather than just say it is biased?


----------



## Macquack (30 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> As I said in one of my first posts, Hamas would not be firing rockets at Israel and we would not have had the over the top retaliation that we have seen from Israel, if those in the West were to condemn Hamas for its actions as vociferously as they condemn Israel.




When Hamas lie low, Israel just takes more of their land, locks them up in an occupied territory and depraves them of human dignity.

What do you expect Hamas to do, continue to take it up the ****?

How the **** can the west condemn Hamas without slaughtering all the Palastinians.

Don't worry bellenuit, Israel is doing exactly what you want.


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## bellenuit (30 July 2014)

Macquack said:


> When Hamas lie low, Israel just takes more of their land, locks them up in an occupied territory and depraves them of human dignity.
> 
> What do you expect Hamas to do, continue to take it up the ****?
> 
> ...




Actually it isn't doing what I want. I want it to work towards giving the Palestinians an independent state and not be captive to the extremists on their own side. I would also like them to stop the blockade of Gaza and I would like them not only to cease with Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, but to return those parts already taken.


----------



## Uncle Festivus (31 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Actually it isn't doing what I want. I want it to work towards giving the Palestinians an independent state and not be captive to the extremists on their own side. I would also like them to stop the blockade of Gaza and I would like them not only to cease with Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, but to return those parts already taken.




'return those parts already taken'? Well that would be Israel then?

The state of Israel exists because they stole someone else's land.

Israels aim is to eradicate Palestine - as shown by the video of the systematic demolition of suburb after suburb - it's simply a land grab before the US finally tells them enough is enough. Without financial support from the US Israel would not exist.

http://youtu.be/YVV6zIyymoE

But that's ok because the IDF dropped some leaflets letting you know that your suburb was about to be flattened - Hamas used the entire suburb as a 'human shield'

If your back is to the wall, what have you got to lose?


----------



## bellenuit (31 July 2014)

*Oz: 'Lose-lose situation for Israel'
*

http://www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situation-for-israel/a-17822511


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

noco said:


> What I have witnessed on this link that is happening in France is frightening to say the least.
> 
> Can it happen here?...........Yes it can if we continue to allow more Muslims to enter Australia illegally or legally.
> 
> ...





That is wrong on so many level.

I don't know why most Arab/Middle Eastern families have more than the 2.1 kids, but wouldn't you assume that it could be because their religion does not allow contraception and other means of birth controls?

I don't know Islam, but to say that Arabs have more kids so they will one day take over Australia is just wrong. Does Catholics having more than 2.1 kids have the same plan too?

We're living in a secular, liberal, democratic society... multiculturalism... so your rationales are unfounded.

I haven't read or heard any studies done in Australia, but in the United States, the Israeli Lobby - with incredible financial strengths, influence its political leaders and media dialogue that favours Israel no matter what Israel does. Often to the detriment of US national interests.

Given those facts, no objective person is saying that the Jewish people are undermining US security or planning to subplan American democracy... because it is impossible for any one group to do that kind of things in a democracy.

You should youtube lectures on the Israeli Lobby by professors Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt... They argued that not a lot of Jewish people identify with Israel or agree with its policies, but the Israeli Lobby, while acting as any lobby in a democratic system, direct its enormous power and influence in favour of a foreign country, and often doing it at harm to the national interests. 


If you're concern about our security and national interests, i think you ought to not jump to that kind of bigoted conclusions. 

To think that the Arabs are out there hating Jews, and by hating Jews they also hate democracies and "Western values" is absurd. 

Of course there are extremist elements in any society and culture, to select those opinions and paint an entire civilisation like that is just morally wrong and factually unfounded.


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> He is a critic of all religions, but particularly Islam and asserts (as I think would anyone with half a brain) that the doctrines of Islam are uniquely dangerous to civilisation and it "is not even remotely a religion of peace". He also criticises Judaism and particularly its ancient texts and the whole concept of the state of Israel. This is from his book "*The End of Faith*":




I think you're right, anyone with half a brain would think one religion preaches violence while others are all about peace. Wait, Harris also admit that Judaism is violent, but most Jews know better than to follow their Bibles literally... only the Arabs, all Arabs, follow it to the letter.

I don't know much about the teachings in either religion, but I read somewhere that Islam and Judaism and Christianity share the same God, Islam recognise Moses and Jesus Christ are Prophets of that God, just like Muhammad is a Prophet of God... but of course that can't be true, one religion and people are just evil than the other.


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Actually it isn't doing what I want. I want it to work towards giving the Palestinians an independent state and not be captive to the extremists on their own side. I would also like them to stop the blockade of Gaza and I would like them not only to cease with Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, but to return those parts already taken.




I think that if you step back a bit, look at the facts, go see the arguments and conclusions by respected scholars like Chomsky, Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt, Norman Finkelstein, and especially pay attention to further questions in their Q&A sessions... you would be very upset and maybe heartbroken to see what Israel has done, is doing, and continue to do.. if not done in your name, then certainly done with your sympathy and understanding.

I think you owe it to yourself and to the obviously innocent civilians being killed and maimed in Gaza right now to take some time and look at the facts and see if those facts match up with Israel's claims to self defence and peace.

In 3 years time, the Palestinians living in Gaza/West Bank has been living under occupation for 50 years. 
In the last 6 years, a 7 year old Palestinian child have witnessed 3 wars on their homeland. They would have certainly seen at least a member of their family died in those wars, lost friends siblings...

For the last 47 years, Palestinians cannot freely move, their food, their electricity and fuel, their water, materials to build their family a home, opportunities to learn and advance themselves... all these are under the control of a foreign power. And every few years, there's a war that destroy all they have worked to try to carry on living...


I think you owe it to your own conscience, before telling the Palestinians that what has been done to them is wrong but "understandable", you ought to really check out the claims that make it understandable.

*Below are Israeli myths:*
1. Israel is Jewish and Judaism, criticising Israel is anti Semitic and loyalty to Israel is loyalty to Judaism.
- Israel is a country, established by a segment of the Jewish people - the Zionists. 
- Israel is a racist state, with one law for the favoured blood and all else are second class.

2. Israel has always fought wars because its neighbours want to wipe it off the map
- No one will dare fight you if you have 600 nuclear warheads, no matter how much they hate you;
- Israel's former foreign minister and historian have concluded that all Israel's wars has been of self-created traps, follies or invasion... except for maybe the 1948 war of independence, none has been war for survival;

There's more but anyway...


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

> - No one will dare fight you if you have 600 nuclear warheads




Can you supply a source for your assertion that Israel possesses 600 nuclear warheads ?


----------



## noco (31 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> That is wrong on so many level.
> 
> I don't know why most Arab/Middle Eastern families have more than the 2.1 kids, but wouldn't you assume that it could be because their religion does not allow contraception and other means of birth controls?
> 
> ...




A little food for thought on the true state of Islam......The Arabs had intentions of wiping Israel off the map in 1967, known as the 6 day war when the Arabs received more than they bargained for......During that period, Israel occupied the Gaza strip, the Golan heights and the West Bank......The Gaza strip was given back to the Palestinians much later, the reasons I am not sure.......the Golan Heights and the West bank were held for strategic purposes to stop further invasion by the Arabs.  

With regards to the Catholic faith, there was intentions of the Catholics to become the dominate religion in the world during the 40's and 50's and even into the sixties.....Catholic families of 9 and 10 were not uncommon during that period and it was because contraception was banned on all accounts......But it came to pass, having large families became unaffordable and the cheating began resulting in smaller families.  


CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD Australians?    This is certainly 'food-for-thought' .

This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish.  And send it on to everyone.  Maybe this is why our Australian Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.

         Can a good Muslim be a good Australian?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia  for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia .

Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam .  (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews .

Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America the great Satan, Australia and the rest of the free world.

Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the Australian Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Australians [or good Englishmen or good Americans!].  Call it what you wish, it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country [ and yours] and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. .....

Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.   SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.

THE AUSSIE DIGGERS WANT THIS TO ROLL OUT ALL OVER AUSTRALIA .

Please don't delete this until you send it on.


----------



## Macquack (31 July 2014)

The Israel/Palastinian conflict is literally a “dog fight”.

It is the dirty rotten Israelis with their killer “american” *pitbulls* verses the Palastinians with their ferocious *chihuahuas*.

It is not a fair fight.


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## noco (31 July 2014)

Macquack said:


> The Israel/Palastinian conflict is literally a “dog fight”.
> 
> It is the dirty rotten Israelis with their killer “american” *pitbulls* verses the Palastinians with their ferocious *chihuahuas*.
> 
> It is not a fair fight.





 ROFL.....Hail Hitler...


----------



## chiff (31 July 2014)

As one of my European relations sent me "David versus Goliath-the world is watching"


----------



## noco (31 July 2014)

chiff said:


> As one of my European relations sent me "David versus Goliath-the world is watching"




David the Israeli versus the Goliath Arabs.


----------



## noco (31 July 2014)

Are there any women in the Western World who would like to follow Islam?


      More than 1. reason to kick them out of our country.Pity we can't vote on it

             ******************************************************************************************

    Subject: Joys of Muslim Women





    These are troubling times.

    This was written by a woman born in Egypt as a Muslim. This is not heresy, and it will scare you.

    Make sure you read the paragraph (in red) towards the end.

    cid:1.4291168748@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com




    Joys of Muslim Women

    by Nonie Darwish




    In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 1 year old and have sexual intimacy with this child, consummating the marriage by 9. The dowry is given to the family in exchange for the woman (who becomes his slave) and for the purchase of the private parts of the woman, to use her as a toy.







    Even though a woman is abused, she can not obtain a divorce.

    To prove rape, the woman must have (4) male witnesses.

    Often after a woman has been raped, she is returned to her family and the family must return the dowry. The family has the right to execute her (an honor killing) to restore the honor of the family. Husbands can beat their wives 'at will' and the man does not have to say why he has beaten her.It does not matter if she dies from the beating she can always be replaced.




    The husband is permitted to have 4 wives and a temporary wife for an hour (prostitute) at his discretion.




    The Shariah Muslim law controls the private as well as the public life of the woman.




    In the Western World (America) Muslim men are starting to demand Shariah Law so the wife can not obtain a divorce and he can have full and complete control of her.  It is amazing and alarming how many of our sisters and daughters attending American Universities are now marrying Muslim men and submitting themselves and their children unsuspectingly to the Shariah law.




    By passing this on, enlightened American women may avoid becoming a slave under Shariah Law.

    Ripping the West in Two

    Author and lecturer Nonie Darwish says the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and liberty in two.




    She recently authored the book,Ã‚ Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law.




    Darwish was born in Cairo and spent her childhood in Egypt and Gaza before immigrating to America in 1978, when she was eight years old. Her father died while leading covert attacks on Israel. He was a high-ranking Egyptian military officer stationed with his family in Gaza .




    When he died, he was considered a "shahid," a martyr for jihad. His posthumous status earned Nonie and her family an elevated position in Muslim society.




    But Darwish developed a skeptical eye at an early age. She questioned her own Muslim culture and upbringing. She converted to Christianity after hearing a Christian preacher on television.




    In her latest book, Darwish warns about creeping sharia law - what it is, what it means, and how it is manifested in Islamic countries.




    For the West, she says radical Islamists are working to impose sharia on the world. If that happens, Western civilization will be destroyed. Westerners generally assume all religions encourage a respect for the dignity of each individual. Islamic law (Sharia) teaches that non-Muslims should be subjugated or killed in this world.




    Peace and prosperity for one's children is not as important as assuring that Islamic law rules everywhere in the Middle East and eventually in the world.




    While Westerners tend to think that all religions encourage some form of the golden rule, Sharia teaches two systems of ethics - one for Muslims and another for non-Muslims. Building on tribal practices of the seventh century, Sharia encourages the side of humanity that wants to take from and subjugate others.




    While Westerners tend to think in terms of religious people developing a personal understanding of and relationship with God, Sharia advocates executing people who ask difficult questions that could be interpreted as criticism.




    It's hard to imagine, that in this day and age, Islamic scholars agree that those who criticize Islam or choose to stop being Muslim should be executed. Sadly, while talk of an Islamic reformation is common and even assumed by many in the West, such murmurings in the Middle East are silenced through intimidation.




    While Westerners are accustomed to an increase in religious tolerance over time, Darwish explains how petro dollars are being used to grow an extremely intolerant form of political Islam in her native Egypt and elsewhere.




*  In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U.S. to elect the President by themselves! Rest assured they will do so... You can look at how they have taken over several towns in the USA .. Dearborn Mich. is one... and there are others...
*



    I think everyone in the U.S. should be required to read this, but with the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on!




    It is too bad that so many are disillusioned with life and Christianity to accept Muslims as peaceful.. some may be but they have an army that is willing to shed blood in the name of Islam.. the peaceful support the warriors with their finances and own kind of patriotism to their religion. While America is getting rid of Christianity from all public sites and erasing God from the lives of children the Muslims are planning a great jihad on America ..




    This is your chance to make a difference...! Pass it on to your email list or at least those you think will listen..


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Can you supply a source for your assertion that Israel possesses 600 nuclear warheads ?




The 600 number was referenced in one of John Mearsheimer's lectures titled "the Israeli Lobby and US Foreign Policy". I think it was in reference to a question about Israel fighting existential wars - fighting for survival - or that Iran was about to build one nuke.

In addition, I saw a documentary a while back where US president JFK have sent US inspectors to Israel and want to force Israel from its nuclear ambition because he does not want a nuclear arms race in the Middle East.

This is also mentioned in this news article I just googled:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal

- Estimate nuclear arsenal of 80 warheads. 
- Israel have nuclear and chemical/biological weapons.

Also on wikipedia where estimate between 75 and 400 nuclear warheads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Regardless of the exact number, I think the point Mearsheimer made, and many strategists and political scientists will agree, is that if nuclear weapons are essentially defensive and not offensive weapons. That once you can build 1 nuke, you can multiple to 2 or 3... and a country having  1 or 2 or 3 nuclear warhead will not be taken over.

The point Mearsheimer also made, and he is not just an Israeli analysts, he's a foreign relation strategists and scholar, he went to West Point and served in the US Navy and Air Force before turning to academia... the point he want to make is that since at least 1967, Israel's military is far superior to any of its neighbours... that the Israel of 1967 and today is not that of 1939 or pre-1947.

But let say that Israel have no nuclear weapon at all... can you seriously believe that any Arab army could take it on and drive it out of Palestine?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> But let say that Israel have no nuclear weapon at all... can you seriously believe that any Arab army could take it on and drive it out of Palestine?




Not while the Arabs are the disunited rabble that they are now. But Israel is only 8 million people against how many Arabs ?


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

noco said:


> Are there any women in the Western World who would like to follow Islam?
> 
> 
> More than 1. reason to kick them out of our country.Pity we can't vote on it
> ...




You seriously think democracies like Australia and US, UK... are liberal and forward thinking because they follow the Judaeo/Christian Bible?

We have advanced technologically, socially more equal and just about all the benefits of modernity because the Church and its teachings are *separated* from politic and policies.

IF we follow any religion and make policies based on the teachings of *any* Bible, we will still be living in the dark ages. There will be no condoms, no pills or any form of birth control; no gays or lesbians could get marry [they still couldn't, not legally because the Church's "moral" influence is still too strong]; there will be no medical advances and research etc. etc...


You seem to think that Arabs are all terrorists, that they are poor because they're uncivilised...

Without Arabs scholars, scientists, mathematicians, astronomers... the World and the West probably couldn't even do maths, couldn't even make a proper sail for their ships etc. etc.; the Renaissance would't have happened because without Arab's translations of the Greek's classics, they would have been lost forever. 

And that's just from me as a pedestrian reader of history.
Before you group an entire race like that, may worth asking why Iraq/Babylon was known as the cradle of civilisation.

--

In one of their lectures, Stephen Walt replied to a question with the same premise as yours is suggesting... In it, he cite surveys by US State Departments and other bodies and found that with very small exceptions, people in the Arab world like Western culture and Western values; they prefer democracies and liberal government to the dictators that rule over them; Walt even said that the Palestinians, despite what Israel has done to them, prefer the Israeli form of government to theirs..

He points out that it is only when the question regards US and Israeli policies that they all hated, not the people, not the culture or the values.


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## Macquack (31 July 2014)

Noco, can you please refrain from posting off topic "*I hate all muslims*" - "cut and paste" - "Please don't delete this until you send it on" irrelevance.

The topic is "Re: *Israel - Palestine*".


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## banco (31 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> Without Arabs scholars, scientists, mathematicians, astronomers... the World and the West probably couldn't even do maths, couldn't even make a proper sail for their ships etc. etc.; the Renaissance would't have happened because without Arab's translations of the Greek's classics, they would have been lost forever.
> 
> And that's just from me as a pedestrian reader of history.
> Before you group an entire race like that, may worth asking why Iraq/Babylon was known as the cradle of civilisation.




They peaked hundreds of years ago and it's been all downhill from there.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

> Before you group an entire race like that, may worth asking why Iraq/Babylon was known as the cradle of civilisation.




I was under the impression that it was Greece and Rome.


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Not while the Arabs are the disunited rabble that they are now. But Israel is only 8 million people against how many Arabs ?




"Our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal."
- John F. Kennedy

It was thinking that the Soviets are human like ourselves that prevented the Cuban Missile Crisis from turning into WW3 with nukes.

If JFK thought that the Russians are barbarians and their Communist doctrines preaches annihilations of Western Capilisatists at all costs, I don't think you and I and our children would still be around anymore.

----


You seem to think that all the Arabs and Arab Sheiks and leaders does all day is pray, beat their women and dream of killing Jews.

Not only is that offensive, don't you think it also put the Jewish people a bit too high up the priority scale?

If what you're saying is true, why don't Israel go and bomb Germany, or kill all people of Aryan blood... 'cause from history, some of those people actually say and do kill most of the Jews. 

What did the Arabs ever done to the Jewish people?

The Palestinians let in the Zionist Jews in the early 1900s into their country - Palestine - where they can set up camps and do their Zionist thing on the land their Bible said is theirs; During WW2 when no other country were willing to take in Jewish refugees, Palestine did took a lot of them in... 

It is only when the UN decided to split Palestine into two states that the Palestinians fought back... and keep trying until 1967 when they and the Arab world know it's all over.

I think the Arabs and the world are quite realists and know that a strong power will take over a weak power and decides world affairs. All they're asking is some dignity and rights to self rule... but if you keep destroying their lives and their cities... they will take it for now too because there's no other choice... but does that make it right and moral to do that to people?


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## luutzu (31 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I was under the impression that it was Greece and Rome.




No it was Babylon/Persia. 

The Persian empire expanded and almost took over Greek civilisations - twice (Sparta and the Marathon); Then Alexander the Great, after his father united, i think, almost all Greek city states, Alexander finish the job and challenge and defeat the Persian empire... He died young and his empire was divided into some 5 kingdoms among his generals - one of which was the Ptolemy, ancestors of Cleopatra.

Before Rome was even a fledgling unified Italian Republic, the superpower in the Mediterranean was Carthage - probably splinters of Greek and North African part of Alexander's empire...

Carthage's Hannibal almost took over Rome but after series of defeats, Scipio Africanus of Rome burn Carthage to the ground and the Roman empire starts to dominate.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

luutzu said:


> No it was Babylon/Persia.
> 
> The Persian empire expanded and almost took over Greek civilisations - twice (Sparta and the Marathon); Then Alexander the Great, after his father united, i think, almost all Greek city states, Alexander finish the job and challenge and defeat the Persian empire... He died young and his empire was divided into some 5 kingdoms among his generals - one of which was the Ptolemy, ancestors of Cleopatra.
> 
> ...




I wouldn't actually call Alexander the Great "civilised". He just went around conquering people.


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

banco said:


> They peaked hundreds of years ago and it's been all downhill from there.




"Empires wax and wane; States  cleave asunder and coalesce."
- Lo Kuan-Chung (Romance of the Three Kingdoms).

The Chinese once dominated their half of the world; So were the Italian/Romans; So where the Mongolian under Genghis Khan whose empire dominate East, Middle East, and the West were spared because it was deemed uncivilised and not a top priority compare to the middle eastern kingdoms...

The British once dominate most of the world, so were the Dutch, the French with Napoleon master Europe and after Napoleon colonises parts of Africa, the Pacifics, SouthEast Asia (Indochina) etc etc

The European Jews were almost completely slaughtered, some of their descendants now slaughter some of the Arabs...

Empires wax and wane... No race of people can claim to be inherently superior to another race; and no evidence of a race or a culture having peaked and will just be in continuous decline while another were weak but now will forever dominate.


Just as a country will lost half its ability and human resources if it barred women from education and rights to pursue their happiness, so much more will a state that discriminate and suppress an entire race of people.

To be so racist that you deemed nothing worthy can ever come from people of certain blood, you're losing much more than just a second opinions and perspective when it comes to dealing with a world filled with people not of your blood; To then expend your nation's blood and treasure and trained your youth to suppress and oppress another people will lead to a nation filled with unkind souls; To tell lies to your people and to the world will make fools out of your sons and allies, drive the good and the intelligent people away from you and your causes... 

A nation that proclaim itself righteous while committing crimes against humanity... what other end will it meet but self destruction?


----------



## luutzu (31 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I wouldn't actually call Alexander the Great "civilised". He just went around conquering people.




I didn't say he was or wasn't.
And you're probably right about him. But just like the Mongolian after him, they won wars but do not abolish cultures... they adopted the cultures of their subject and soon become part of them.

I meant to say that the Arabs/Persians were civilised long before or at least at the same time as the Greeks... then came Cartage and the Romans.

Aristotle taught Alexander, and his friends, that the Persians are uncivilised barbarians... he questioned how could barbarian savages almost control the Greeks. Then when he took over Persia, he adopted its cultures and civilisations.


----------



## DeepState (31 July 2014)

Nuclear weapons.  This is what happens if a 150kt nuclear surface explosion, launched via a commonly available delivery system, hits Ramallah and the wind is blowing the wrong way (from an Israeli perspective).  Tel Aviv gets a tan.  Use of nukes in Gaza is ridiculous. How powerful is a nuclear deterrent when hitting the target blasts you as well for a wide circumference of wind direction?  In this case, the nuclear option is not available to Israel unless it hits an ally of Hamas to dry up supply lines or something along those lines, inviting a hail of world fury upon itself.
.





If the nation was on its knees and in the last throes of battle, a strike on Cairo would be possible.  Similarly with Tehran. Hence the nukes.  In this case, they cannot be used.


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## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

> What did the Arabs ever done to the Jewish people?




In the present day they voted in a bunch of jihadists called Hamas dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

I think that probably the amount of land in dispute is too little for the Israeli's (8 million) and the Palestinians (4 million) to comfortably co-exist. Either the Palestinians move to surrounding countries, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Israelis move to other parts of the world, but I can't see either of these alternatives happening.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

> You seem to think that all the Arabs and Arab Sheiks and leaders does all day is pray, beat their women and dream of killing Jews.




Do I ? I'd like not to have people think they can read my mind or put words in my mouth.

The Arabs are disunited in their attitude towards Israel, otherwise they would have taken over long ago.



> Not only is that offensive, don't you think it also put the Jewish people a bit too high up the priority scale?




Priority for what ? The Israelis are 8 million, the Palestinians are 4 million. Who should have priority ?


----------



## DeepState (31 July 2014)

All wars are crimes.  Here's some perspective showing 'just' battle deaths from wars involving inter-state conflict since WWII:




Gaza strip Palestinian deaths are > 1,242 with 70-80% estimated to be civilian. That would put battle deaths at around 311 for (sickly) comparison.


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## Julia (31 July 2014)

I don't want to argue for one side or the other in this thread.  I find it all far too complicated and can see the huge difficulties of both sides.

But luutzu, you seem to be ascribing to bellenuit a particular stance which I don't believe he/she has taken.
On the contrary, I've now read several of bellenuit's posts which show an objectivity and appreciation of both sides not expressed by anyone else.

The only other observation I'd dare to make is the number of posts (reflected in general media coverage) of this war in comparison with what seems to me to be a far greater number of people killed, tortured, and driven from their homes in Syria.  I suppose because the Israelis are not involved in that, it provokes less interest.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

Julia said:


> I suppose because the Israelis are not involved in that, it provokes less interest.




The media and the public seem to think (with some justification) that Syria is one lot of crazies against another lot of crazies and whatever happens there is the result of lawlessness and lack of respect for life on both sides, and there is not a lot anyone can do about it.

 In Israel/Gaza we have a country that purports to be civilised shelling schools, homes and refugee camps. That obviously brings up difficult questions of what action the rest of the world should take against Israel for these atrocities, given that the Palestinians are not entirely blameless either as they started firing rockets first.

Unfortunately, yes a very complicated situation. There are extremists on both sides, both elected by the people of the respective countries/territories.


----------



## noco (31 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The media and the public seem to think (with some justification) that Syria is one lot of crazies against another lot of crazies and whatever happens there is the result of lawlessness and lack of respect for life on both sides, and there is not a lot anyone can do about it.
> 
> In Israel/Gaza we have a country that purports to be civilised shelling schools, homes and refugee camps. That obviously brings up difficult questions of what action the rest of the world should take against Israel for these atrocities, given that the Palestinians are not entirely blameless either as they started firing rockets first.
> 
> Unfortunately, yes a very complicated situation. There are extremists on both sides, both elected by the people of the respective countries/territories.




But we all know Hamas have their rocket launchers in the schools and hospitals and tunnels leading under them.....Hamas wants Israel to fire back at the rocket launchers which have human shields so they get publicity and sympathy from the media.....those bad Israelis....Hamas have been reported as firing their own rockets into populated areas in the Gaza a strip and blaming the Iraeli for it......Hamas does not care about the loss of life.


----------



## chiff (1 August 2014)

Ironic that Israel has become the neo-Nazis,delving out collective punishment on any that oppose their occupations and invasions.
I was inculcated with films depicting partisans as heroes when they opposed the Nazi occupations.


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## luutzu (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> In the present day they voted in a bunch of jihadists called Hamas dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
> 
> I think that probably the amount of land in dispute is too little for the Israeli's (8 million) and the Palestinians (4 million) to comfortably co-exist. Either the Palestinians move to surrounding countries, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Israelis move to other parts of the world, but I can't see either of these alternatives happening.




Israel is what you'd call a regional hegemon - the master of the region. It's armed to the heavens. Now and then a terrorist managed to kill a few of its citizens... but to see that as any country, or any Arab country, could push them out of Palestine is not realistic.

Israel now own 80% of historic Palestine. The Palestinians, knowing they're in a hopeless situation, has since 1967 agreed to settled for the remaining 20% of what was their homeland... that's the 1967 border there and still the Israeli said no and keep on expanding its settlements, divide and conquer the Palestinians... all the while playing the victim.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> In the present day they voted in a bunch of jihadists called Hamas dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
> 
> I think that probably the amount of land in dispute is too little for the Israeli's (8 million) and the Palestinians (4 million) to comfortably co-exist. Either the Palestinians move to surrounding countries, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the Israelis move to other parts of the world, but I can't see either of these alternatives happening.




If somebody comes over and take your house and send your family packing to the garden shed and bring you food and water so you won't die.. you'd probably wish them ill too.

Why does every country in the world have armed forces? Are they all war mongers?

If you lock your doors and say have a gun or two, does it mean you hate the world and want to kill your neighbours?

Why must the Palestinians have their doors locked on the outside and their land and water and airspace being monitored like someone else's prisons?


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

Julia said:


> I don't want to argue for one side or the other in this thread.  I find it all far too complicated and can see the huge difficulties of both sides.
> 
> But luutzu, you seem to be ascribing to bellenuit a particular stance which I don't believe he/she has taken.
> On the contrary, I've now read several of bellenuit's posts which show an objectivity and appreciation of both sides not expressed by anyone else.
> ...




I admit i might have gotten a bit impatient and sarcastic sometimes, but what Bellinuit has been saying, and the article s/he points to to prove the point, clearly said that what is happening to the Palestinians and the children are horrible, BUT Israel is in an impossible position because... i'm assuming, it has to defend itself and Hamas use human  shields and the like.

I don't think I was unfair to say that if Bellenuit believe that, then perhaps he should do a bit of research - not from columnists or opinion pieces, but look at research done by the UN, human rights group, professors of political science etc.

I have never commented on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict until now actually. Not because it's Israel and I don't like Israel and have a thing for the Palestinians. 

Like all wars and conflicts raging on now, I have little interests and no knowledge to comment on them... I can't speak for others but though I have seen a couple of documentaries on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, notably "Check Point" a while back, I still have no opinions until this year when the conflict just keep repeating every couple of years and so many innocent people are killed.

I googled and youtube, staying away from any commentaries or organisations that might provide one side or another... and so it goes to the academics and the historians.

After these broad overviews, my assumptions that Israel has only been fighting for its survival, the Arabs in Palestine are terrorists etc etc... all these are lies; the assumption that Israel represents the Jewish faith, that it is a liberal democracy where people are treated equal like how it is in Australia, the idea that Israel is fighting for values that I treasure as an Australian against the Arab hordes... these are lies.

So if Israel want to oppress other people, I'd rather it doesn't do it saying it is fighting wars for survival and projecting and protecting my values. Don't do it in my name or in the name of my beliefs.

As to other wars and other conflicts I don't comment on... I'm no Chomsky. I can comment a lot on the Vietnam War but that's about it.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Do I ? I'd like not to have people think they can read my mind or put words in my mouth.
> 
> The Arabs are disunited in their attitude towards Israel, otherwise they would have taken over long ago.
> 
> ...




Priority for their own life and their family's livelihood.
No matter how much the Arabs just hate the Jews, I still can't imagine them just sitting around hating Jews and thinking of wars to kill them. They got other priorities, like getting a job, like listening to music, studies, take care of their family....


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> If somebody comes over and take your house and send your family packing to the garden shed and bring you food and water so you won't die.. you'd probably wish them ill too.
> 
> Why does every country in the world have armed forces? Are they all war mongers?
> 
> ...




I don't quite get the point you are trying to make. 

Imo the Palestinians have got a raw deal, but as long as they vote for a group of jihadists to represent them their chances of getting much sympathy from the West (if that's what they want) is minimal. Their best chance is to renounce jihad and stop the violence. They will still get encroached upon by Israel for a while, but in the long term they will get more help from other countries who will put pressure on Israel to step back and give the Palestinians a better deal.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

chiff said:


> Ironic that Israel has become the neo-Nazis,delving out collective punishment on any that oppose their occupations and invasions.
> I was inculcated with films depicting partisans as heroes when they opposed the Nazi occupations.




I saw a few news clips and video interviews of Jewish people in Israel on youtube... and Israel is a country I definitely do not want live in.

From those videos, all the Israeli youths, maybe except for one teen girl, hates the Arabs... the only Israeli Jews who are sympathetic, who see Arabs as also human being too are the older, 60+ age group.

I'm not saying that these few clips are representative of the Israeli Jewish people... but if you look at the laws, the lawmakers, the judicial processes, the kind of brainwashing that have to take place to tell young people to occupy another group of people... I just hope it doesn't represent the norm, but it is still sad and frightening.

There's this town in Israel where most Arab-Christian Israeli lives. The guy that represent an association for some community works in Israel said that since 1967, all Arab Israeli lives there - there has been no new town, no new city where they can move to. So 3 generations of Arab Israeli just live in an area where their father and grandfather lives, and it just keep getting more and more crowded.

But of course the Israeli gov't tells the world that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, and where an Arab Israeli could become Prime Minister of Israel (the Israeli spokesman actually said that recently).

If I'm Jewish and I believe in God, and I've worked hard and try to be a good person all my life... If I also know a little of the racism that caused the murder of my people... If i'm that and all these time I've been told that Israel represents my people, doing my God's work, represents what I stand for and value... then I spend a week and youtube and see the things that I see, i'd be pretty upset... i'd be outraged.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't quite get the point you are trying to make.
> 
> Imo the Palestinians have got a raw deal, but as long as they vote for a group of jihadists to represent them their chances of getting much sympathy from the West (if that's what they want) is minimal. Their best chance is to renounce jihad and stop the violence. They will still get encroached upon by Israel for a while, but in the long term they will get more help from other countries who will put pressure on Israel to step back and give the Palestinians a better deal.




First, when the UN and the international observers oversaw the election in Gaza in 2006 [?] where Hamas was elected overwhelmingly... all the international electoral witnesses say it was a fair election and Hamas won.

I don't think any outside power should have the right to dictate to a people who they should elect to represent them. But Israel and the US then declare Hamas a terror organisation and blockade Gaza since.

With the two wars to the one before the current one, Hamas was weakened, pretty much broke and couldn't pay their public servants.... and you can find this on most news debates... Hamas then talks to the Palestinian Authority of Abbas in the West Bank to form a unity gov't and to negotiate with Israel.

Norman Finkelstein, Dr. Stephen Walt and others I've seen have said that Netanyahu then call Washington to do something, call the EU to do something about this unity... both told him they want to see this going forward and see where it leads...

Netanyahu want to break this unity up so he, and Israel, can say to the world that Gaza is controlled by a terrorist organisation, Israel can't negotiate with Palestinians because there's no such thing as a Palestinian authority that represents all of them etc. etc.

Then the 3 Israel youth got kidnapped, by whom no one knows - kidnapped and killed by a Palestinian or two from the West Bank... but the blame was put on Hamas...

If you look up some of the news debate, some have said that the Israeli security have heard the call from one of the youth that were kidnapped and from the recording, assumed they have already been killed at that moment. But Netanyahu suppress that on grounds of National Security, send in the army to the West Bank and capture some 100 Hamas leaders/suspect/former prisoners... Hamas then fire their rockets and here we are.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

Alexander sounds like a very smart man. 

Don't know much about him but was listening to a lecture on him a while back and after he defeat Darius II [?], marched into the Persian capital and instead of killing everyone, or at least the royal family... he declared to the Empress Dowager that he will treat her as he would his own mother, her children as his own siblings... and to the Persians, he declared that Darius has brought them to ruin but Alexander will make them great again... 

Then yea, tax them, ahaha

My mum once told me that the Jewish people are a very smart group of people. Seeing the policies of Israel, either the Jewish aren't that smart or the Israeli gov't aren't Jewish, or not representative of Jewish intellectuals.

I mean, why spend so much of your energy and resources to make another group of people weak? They will try and fight back, some of your people might get kill, you kill them to get them in line for a while... repeat... and through all these, you can't use their labour, can't use their ingenuity... and given what has happen to your people, it's just incomprehensible that you'd repeat similarly unjust and racists laws and action to your people on another people.


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## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't quite get the point you are trying to make.
> 
> Imo the Palestinians have got a raw deal, but as long as they vote for a group of jihadists to represent them their chances of getting much sympathy from the West (if that's what they want) is minimal. Their best chance is to renounce jihad and stop the violence. They will still get encroached upon by Israel for a while, but in the long term they will get more help from other countries who will put pressure on Israel to step back and give the Palestinians a better deal.




Exactly my point too. When Luutzu suggesting reading material for me, he overlooked the fact that I had specifically stated that my comments were in relation to the current immediate conflict that was going on not on the justification or not of the Jewish state.

Israel, it seems, have now decided to carry on with this immediate aggression until Hamas is effectively destroyed. Unfortunately the Palestinians people are pawns in this war and the consequences to them could be catastrophic. Apart from the dead and injured, much of their infrastructure is damaged making life for them intolerable.

Macquack asked "What do you expect Hamas to do, continue to take it up the ****?"

This is what Hamas can do. They can get out of Gaza. They are of no benefit to anyone on this earth, least of all to the Palestinians, just like Al-Qaeda is of no benefit to anyone. They do not defend the Gazian Palestinians from Israel, but instead attract retribution. Every major incursion into Gaza in the last few years, most resulting in hundreds sometimes thousands of deaths and injuries, has been a consequence of Hamas rocket fire into Israel. They do not forward the cause of an independent Palestinian state one bit, but instead are an obstacle preventing it being achieved as their goal of the complete annihilation of Jews forces uncommitted Israelis to the right giving the hardline Zionists the upper hand. And their goal isn't just the annihilation of Jews in Israel, but the complete annihilation of all Jews, no matter where they live. If you don't believe that, just check out their charter. This tarnishes all Palestinians who support them with the same brush making it difficult for world governments to throw their support behind the Palestinian cause because of the commitment to never let the Holocaust happen again.

Of course Israel is playing the Holocaust memory for all its worth and are getting away with atrocities that they would otherwise be condemned for, particularly from within the US. European leader are more forthcoming but also muted in their responses. And one of the main causes of this reticence is Hamas and what it stands for.

And there are also lots of others, some of the writers I pointed to as well as people I speak to, who criticise Israel but are not blind to Hamas, what it is doing and what its objectives are. They see Hamas using the Palestinian people as pawns in its goal to annihilate the Jews. They know that the rockets are not being fired to defend the Palestinian people (how on earth could that in any way be a defence?) but to attract retribution and the more deadly and gory the better as far as they are concerned. Because Hamas knows that the nightly scenes on TV will get the myopic "masses" on to the streets who will condemn Israel but have nary a word to say against Hamas. 

I have condemned Israel's action as excessive, but I am not blind to or forgiving of the role played by Hamas and I will certainly not be a puppet in their jihadist strategy.


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## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I don't think any outside power should have the right to dictate to a people who they should elect to represent them. But Israel and the US then declare Hamas a terror organisation and blockade Gaza since.




It doesn't matter whether they were elected fairly or not. Hamas *IS* a terrorist organisation. Their charter calls for the killing of all Jews. With that in their charter, Israel has every right to go after and annihilate them, but as I said, not irrespective of the consequences to others.

That Hamas was elected by a majority of Gazian Palestinians is a great shame on those Palestinians.


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## Julia (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The media and the public seem to think (with some justification) that Syria is one lot of crazies against another lot of crazies and whatever happens there is the result of lawlessness and lack of respect for life on both sides, and there is not a lot anyone can do about it.



And the bombing etc from Israel is quite different?   What makes Israel's actions not just as crazy?
The Palestinians have nowhere to go.  Even the UN schools which one would hope were a place of refuge have been bombed.



luutzu said:


> Priority for their own life and their family's livelihood.
> No matter how much the Arabs just hate the Jews, I still can't imagine them just sitting around hating Jews and thinking of wars to kill them. They got other priorities, like getting a job, like listening to music, studies, take care of their family....



Good heavens!  That seems a rather naive view.   Wouldn't the Israeli people similarly prefer to be getting a job, listening to music, and taking care of their family also?  Rather than living with the constant awareness that their neighbours do not consider they have any right to exist?



SirRumpole said:


> Imo the Palestinians have got a raw deal, but as long as they vote for a group of jihadists to represent them their chances of getting much sympathy from the West (if that's what they want) is minimal. Their best chance is to renounce jihad and stop the violence. They will still get encroached upon by Israel for a while, but in the long term they will get more help from other countries who will put pressure on Israel to step back and give the Palestinians a better deal.



Seems reasonable if somewhat optimistic.  As long as the Arab world believes Israel has no right to exist, it's hard to see any softening anywhere.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> It doesn't matter whether they were elected fairly or not. Hamas *IS* a terrorist organisation. Their charter calls for the killing of all Jews. With that in their charter, Israel has every right to go after and annihilate them, but as I said, not irrespective of the consequences to others.
> 
> That Hamas was elected by a majority of Gazian Palestinians is a great shame on those Palestinians.




Miko Peled - the son of a famous Israeli general who was an officer in the Israeli "militia" [wasn't a country and wasn't an army back then] in the wars before 1947-48... and was an IDF general in the 1967 war... Miko Peled have said that the IDF is, to quote him: "... the most well fed, well armed, well organised terrorist organisation in the world.".

I don't know enough about Hamas to make any stance, and I will never condone any violence or act of terror from any side... but come on, can you honestly excuse any power to do what Israel does to people who "wrongly" elected their own leadership?

Yea, I'd also prefer this and that leader in this and that country or that party... but what right do I get to put an entire population under seige and periodically invade their homeland just because I don't like their leadership and what the leadership said.

You're ignoring all the facts that just about every objective observer have said regarding who broke all the ceasefires; most importantly, you're ignoring reality and real political objectives of any leadership.

If you're running for office in Gaza, are you going to say vote for me, I love the Israelis? You're probably going to the parents who lost their children, to the children whose friends, whose limbs are lost... and you tell them, I'm no pawn of Israel, I'll do this and that nasty thing to them all...

But assume that you are right that if Hamas has the arms, or have any money, it will spend it all on trying to kill the Jews and clean up Palestine off Israel... that's just dreams, and in the real world where you could barely have enough water or food, dreams like having an air force, tanks and war ships to take vengeance just ain't going to happen.

We all know the story of the boy who cry wolf... But i suppose the Israeli gov't think that there will never be a wolf in their neighbourhood and big Uncle Sam will always come to their aid so playing the victimised, noble, self defensive, righteous warriors is going to be OK.


Maybe because I didn't bother to look things up before, but I've only seen two documentaries a long time ago that talk about this conflict, and both of the one i saw simply show the daily hardships and suffering of the Palestinians under occupation. 

I didn't like what I saw, I thought it's wrong that the Israeli army could just bulldoze a person's home if their son or daughter was in the resistance... but I thought, that's just Israel being tough to defend itself, it's sad but if it's really undeserved or unjust, I would have seen or heard it on the news...


Miko Peled, the son of a general, whose sister went to school with Bibi, who was himself a soldier in the IDF... he grew up idolising his father, love his country - and by what I see, he still does... and it took him 2 years to come round to the facts that what Israel is doing is wrong. I mean, he said his father - one of the generals who command the 1967 war, fought for Israel's rights to exists but right away advised the gov't to set up two states... but Israel want it all so here we are and will be for a forseeable future.


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## luutzu (1 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Good heavens!  That seems a rather naive view.   Wouldn't the Israeli people similarly prefer to be getting a job, listening to music, and taking care of their family also?  Rather than living with the constant awareness that their neighbours do not consider they have any right to exist?




Like I said, if i come up to a house and with powerful friends forcefully divide half that land... should I expect the home owner to accept it?

They put up fights, can't win so eventually forced to accept. 

I think Arafat in the 1980s, under the Oslo Accord [?] have agreed to the existence of Israel, agreed to give up 80% of historical Palestine to Israel, has agreed that the new settlements can be Israeli but Israel to fairly agree to a land swap so it's still 80-20%... Israel said no.

I've heard from many other sources on this and other peace proposals and Israel rejects all of them.

So yea, keeping people under occupation for 47 years, deprive them of all human rights and dignity and then complaint that they are not "quiet".


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2014)

Julia said:


> And the bombing etc from Israel is quite different?   What makes Israel's actions not just as crazy?




Israel's actions are disproportionate, but they have rockets aimed at them as well, and the firing is usually started by Hamas. The bombing of the UN school was totally unjustified, it can only diminish support for Israel in the UN.


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## DeepState (1 August 2014)

"War is a mere continuation of policy by other means."

"The best strategy is always to be very strong, first in general, and then in the decisive point."

"The simultaneous use of all means intended for a given action appears as an elementary law of war."

- Von Clausewitz, 1832

Is this not politics?  Within borders of a functional state, one set of morals applies.  Once politics moves across borders, there is often no effective law enforcement available.  Atrocities have always occurred in exhorting political will and its objectives.  The desire for power projection is also pretty standard fare (Mearsheimer), even if some states are unable to achieve it.  

Without a functional political structure, you get...Syria. Without functional power you have anarchy. 

Countries trade to get what they want ("When goods don't cross borders, Soldiers will").  In this case, they want land, or the elimination of a race.  These goods cannot be traded. And so, war. Set aside moral bleatings. Ours is not a world of blissful Kantian democratic peace.  Is it not evident that this is a blood feud?  It doesn't end until one party is in total control.  Equal power is the most dangerous state in overall casualty terms.  Overwhelming power, with its drawbacks, offers the prospect of stability.  If the positions were reversed, do you imagine peace would reign?  

This is also a proxy war, in part, but it is not a clean division when we say "the US is supporting Israel".


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## Macquack (1 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> It doesn't matter whether they were elected fairly or not. Hamas *IS* a terrorist organisation. Their charter calls for the killing of all Jews. With that in their charter, Israel has every right to go after and annihilate them, but as I said, not irrespective of the consequences to others.




The Israel government is a terrorist organisation. Their charter is the systematic displacement of Palestinians from Palestine.

Hamas "has every right to go after and annihilate them."

What is the difference, bellenuit?


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I don't know enough about Hamas to make any stance, and I will never condone any violence or act of terror from any side... but come on, can you honestly excuse any power to do what Israel does to people who "wrongly" elected their own leadership?




Did I excuse Israel? Maybe you should read what I wrote.



> You're ignoring all the facts that just about every objective observer have said regarding who broke all the ceasefires; most importantly, you're ignoring reality and real political objectives of any leadership.




And which facts have I ignored about the immediate conflict that is going on? That Israel has used excessive force? I stated that. That Hamas are terrorists? I stated that, but you admit that you don't know much about them. That Hamas deliberately tries to provoke a violent response from Israel as that furthers its cause by allowing it to exploit the myopic view many hold on this conflict? That is part of the reality, but it is you that is ignoring it.



> If you're running for office in Gaza, are you going to say vote for me, I love the Israelis? You're probably going to the parents who lost their children, to the children whose friends, whose limbs are lost... and you tell them, I'm no pawn of Israel, I'll do this and that nasty thing to them all...




So advocating genocide is acceptable to you then?



> But assume that you are right that if Hamas has the arms, or have any money, it will spend it all on trying to kill the Jews and clean up Palestine off Israel... that's just dreams, and in the real world where you could barely have enough water or food, dreams like having an air force, tanks and war ships to take vengeance just ain't going to happen.




You naivety knows no bounds. The capacity of terrorists to do enormous damage with few resources is well recognised. And when backed by other Islamic states such as Iran or with potential access to dirty bombs because of the collapse or near collapse of close by ME states, Israel has to ensure that Hamas never even gets remotely capable of being able to do what it states it would like to do. 



> Maybe because I didn't bother to look things up before, but I've only seen two documentaries a long time ago that talk about this conflict, and both of the one i saw simply show the daily hardships and suffering of the Palestinians under occupation.
> 
> I didn't like what I saw, I thought it's wrong that the Israeli army could just bulldoze a person's home if their son or daughter was in the resistance... but I thought, that's just Israel being tough to defend itself, it's sad but if it's really undeserved or unjust, I would have seen or heard it on the news...




It is mostly undeserved and unjust what they are doing to Palestinians. But Hamas makes it worse for them, not better.



> ... fought for Israel's rights to exists but right away advised the gov't to set up two states... but Israel want it all so here we are and will be for a forseeable future.




I would love to see a two state solution and there are many Israeli's who would settle for that but their voices are being drowned out by the extreme right who see all lands as their birthright. It is the actions of Hamas that makes it difficult for the moderates to be heard and gives oxygen to those on the far right.


----------



## wayneL (1 August 2014)

A curious observation if I may:

Generally, the left supports Hamas, the right supports Israel. 

Why?


----------



## So_Cynical (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> In Israel/Gaza we have a country that purports to be civilised shelling schools, homes and refugee camps. That obviously brings up difficult questions of what action the rest of the world should take against Israel for these atrocities.




I'm reading a history book at the moment and the treatment of Jews in America in the 1920's is one of the subjects touched on, one Jewish trait is quoted as "the ruthless pursuit of self interest" sounds like exactly what we are seeing in the Ghettos of Israel at the moment...pretty much what we have seen from the Jewish state for the last 40 years.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2014)

wayneL said:


> A curious observation if I may:
> 
> Generally, the left supports Hamas, the right supports Israel.
> 
> Why?




I think only the uninformed support either of them, they are both crazy.

But I think your general observation is true. It's a "Conservative vs radical" mindset again. The Israeli government is a far right religious organisation (ring any bells ?) and the Left are against anyone the Right supports.

 The more idealistic on the Left don't like the Establishment crushing the "little people", and so they will support the underdog. 

Conservatives don't like upstarts who challenge the "natural order" so they support the status quo.

Does that make sense to people ?


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> But assume that you are right that if Hamas has the arms, or have any money, it will spend it all on trying to kill the Jews and clean up Palestine off Israel... that's just dreams, and in the real world where you could barely have enough water or food, dreams like having an air force, tanks and war ships to take vengeance just ain't going to happen.




*Militants ‘blow up UNRWA clinic,’ killing 3 soldiers*

http://www.timesofisrael.com/3-idf-soldiers-killed-in-booby-trapped-unrwa-clinic/

_With the amount of concrete Hamas poured into the tunnel project, two hospitals, 20 schools, 20 healthcare centers, and 100 kindergartens could have been built, he said._

*Criticism Grows after Rockets, Booby Traps Discovered at UN Schools and Clinics*

http://www.thetower.org/0815-critic...y-traps-discovered-at-un-schools-and-clinics/


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## overhang (1 August 2014)

Apologies if this offends, a slightly humorous take on the history between two.


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## luutzu (1 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Did I excuse Israel? Maybe you should read what I wrote.
> 
> 
> And which facts have I ignored about the immediate conflict that is going on? That Israel has used excessive force? I stated that. That Hamas are terrorists? I stated that, but you admit that you don't know much about them. That Hamas deliberately tries to provoke a violent response from Israel as that furthers its cause by allowing it to exploit the myopic view many hold on this conflict? That is part of the reality, but it is you that is ignoring it.
> ...




I don't, and I don't believe any sane person, find it acceptable to blow people up, be with bombs attach to their bodies or with bombs dropped from a fancy fighter jets.

I do not condone genocide or any form of killing, be it self defense or with booby traps or sniper or drones.

What you wrote is still there for anyone to take a look, I didn't put word in your mouth.

I could be wrong in that you really didn't mean what you imply, but I think that when you say something like... it's heart breaking that a person is kill but the killer was in an "impossible situation", that it was either kill or be kill, that it was a fight for survival or Shoah... I don't think my conclusion was unfounded.

Your comments regarding Hamas making it harder or force Israeli missiles on Palestinians... that Hamas do not want peace, do not want to negotiate, these are all misinformation.

I don't know the origin or the make up of Hamas, but from Finkelstein and Stephen Walt and others, they have said that Hamas, whatever their original intention or rhetorics, was forming a unity party recently with the PA and want to negotiate with Israel... Israel do not.

While I don't know Hamas or claim to read their minds, I think I do know enough about politics and history to say that people, if you see them as people like ourselves, don't win wars by wishing they could, would surrender and accept some kind of a settlement, some kind of a bargain that would show their people that at least they didn't completely sold them out.

People are generally realistic about the world.

I mean, Hamas is pretty stupid if you ask me... why they would want to fire rockets is hard to understand. It's understandable somewhat... I mean, you can't just not have anything... but it would be better if they didn't have any weapons.

The tunnels... how do you know those tunnels are not more defensive measures rather than offensive ones?
From Israel's portrayal of tunnels you'd think Hamas build them so they can rise from the ground into Israeli's homes and murder them in their sleeps.

I heard on a news channel, i think it was BBC, that Israel had long ago know about these tunnels - for at least 10 years. 

I mean, the Viet Cong didn't dig tunnels into South Vietnamese land to win the war... they build tunnels to get away from American carpet bombings, build tunnels network so when face to face with South/US armies, they could have a chance of fight and run before the entire area is scorched.

While we're on VN... the US dropped more bombs on VN than the entire tonnage of bombs dropped during WW2... Guess who won the VN War.


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## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> What you wrote is still there for anyone to take a look, I didn't put word in your mouth.
> 
> I could be wrong in that you really didn't mean what you imply, but I think that when you say something like... it's heart breaking that a person is kill but the killer was in an "impossible situation", that it was either kill or be kill, that it was a fight for survival or Shoah... I don't think my conclusion was unfounded.




You have certainly put a lot of words in my mouth there.  This is what I said and was referring to the Sam Harris article:



> I think that article encapsulates what many of us feel about this conflict. Shocked with the overreaction of Israel, but somewhat understanding of the impossible situation they are in.




I said it then and have repeated it enough times that you should not need to draw such conclusions. I said I was shocked by what Israel did and that it was an overreaction. That they were in an impossible situation is beyond doubt. You simply cannot allow Hamas to fire rockets at your cities, but must do something to stop them. Was what they did correct? No, it was shocking and over the top.

None of my posts have condoned Israel's actions, but have sought to expose the role of Hamas in what is going on.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> You have certainly put a lot of words in my mouth there.  This is what I said and was referring to the Sam Harris article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




To be honest, I don't even think I was drawing any conclusion - you have already done it, i merely put it another way.

I don't think you care for the points made and facts stated by such authority as Finkelstein and Walt of Harvard regarding who started the current incursion;

Don't think you care for the conclusions I've point to, twice, that a former Israeli Foreign Minister/Historian made that with possible exception of the 1948 war, all Israeli wars had been of choice or folly;

Any respected scholar on the subject would agree with Noam Chomsky's conclusion that when given the choice of peace or expansion, like one given to Israel by Sadat of Egypt in 1971 when there's no such thing as a Palestinian Authority, Israel had always chosen expansion.

That's fine... just it's insulting to people's sense of morality and intelligence when you want to expand, when you oppress people for 47 years, and turn around blaming them for firing useless rockets, home made rockets at you.

That's just as laughable as being persecuted for your faith/race then turn around and create a country based on the same idiocies like "pure" blood, superior God...


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

Bellenuit,

Just out of curiosity, did you vote for Abbott in the last election?
Assume that you did, and assume that I don't like Abbott and Abbott have stated that he's going to do nasty thing to me, he won't take my calls and won't take my money... and you voted for him.

Now, assume that I then lock you in your house, control your water, your food supplies, your fuel and electricity... and whenever I feel like it, come over and break doors and knock heads... just to show you how bad Abbott is to you.

Then now and then you try to fight back with relatively useless weapons (and I don't mean any disrespect or make light of the Israeli deaths), I then burnt half your house, kill your dog then blame you for forcing me to do nasty things...

I hope you'll be as understanding of my impossible situation if that ever happen.

And oh, imagine that my house was part of your homeland, and your home is now a shed outback; and imagine that while you certainly don't like to have lost 80% of your home to me, you grudgingly want a settlement in the shed if only I let you free to move and live, but i said no deal.

I could just see how if i were to do that, I could win the humanitarian award of the year... at least your understanding of my impossible situation.


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Bellenuit,
> 
> Just out of curiosity, did you vote for Abbott in the last election?
> Assume that you did, and assume that I don't like Abbott and Abbott have stated that he's going to do nasty thing to me, he won't take my calls and won't take my money... and you voted for him.
> ...




As I said, Israel's reaction to Hamas rocket firing was shocking and over the top. The correct response would have been to try and neutralise Hamas (Abbott in your example) with as little collateral damage to Palestinians (or to me in your example) as possible. The correct response from observers witnessing what is going on would be to call Hamas out (or Abbott in your example) for what he is advocating and doing and not simply condemn one side.

Your analogy is flawed because you are asserting that it is the Palestinian people (me) that are fighting back with useless rockets. It is Hamas (Abbott) that is firing the rockets and it is only the high success rate of the anti-missile defences that render them useless. Their rocket fire is also not in defence of the Palestinian people but to provoke a deadly response in order to garner sympathy from myopic demonstrators on the streets and on the net.


----------



## Julia (1 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Bellenuit,
> 
> Just out of curiosity, did you vote for Abbott in the last election?
> Assume that you did, and assume that I don't like Abbott and Abbott have stated that he's going to do nasty thing to me, he won't take my calls and won't take my money... and you voted for him.
> ...



That's an entirely disingenuous construction and has no genuine relativity to the Palestinian/Israel problem.



luutzu said:


> *I don't know enough about Hamas to make any stance*,



Yet this admission does not seem to have stopped you taking a distinct 'side', as distinct from those of us who have recognised the enormous problems for both sides.



> You're ignoring all the facts that just about every objective observer have said regarding who broke all the ceasefires; most importantly, you're ignoring reality and real political objectives of any leadership.



A 72 hour ceasefire was agreed to by both sides today.  It was only three hours underway when it was broken.
At the time I heard that, it was unclear which side had taken the first potshot.

However, since you have above asserted who 'broke all the ceasefires' perhaps you could detail this here, with supporting evidence via reliable links.



> Maybe because I didn't bother to look things up before, but I've only seen two documentaries a long time ago that talk about this conflict, and both of the one i saw simply show the daily hardships and suffering of the Palestinians under occupation.



So on the basis of watching two documentaries (do you think it's remotely possible that any documentary on this inflammatory topic could be presented with a particular bias?), you now are completely clear about who is at fault in this awful situation.



luutzu said:


> What you wrote is still there for anyone to take a look, I didn't put word in your mouth.



That's not how it appears to  me as a reader of your remarks.  You have misinterpreted and misrepresented what others have said in many posts.



> I don't know the origin or the make up of Hamas, but from Finkelstein and Stephen Walt and others, they have said that Hamas, whatever their original intention or rhetorics, was forming a unity party recently with the PA and want to negotiate with Israel... Israel do not.



Again, so although you have done minimal investigation into the whole complex subject, you have formed a clear and unequivocal view.  Oh my.




> While I don't know Hamas or claim to read their minds, I think I do know enough about politics and history to say that people, if you see them as people like ourselves, don't win wars by wishing they could, would surrender and accept some kind of a settlement, some kind of a bargain that would show their people that at least they didn't completely sold them out.






> People are generally realistic about the world.



Really?  Religious and political extremist zealots included?



wayneL said:


> A curious observation if I may:
> 
> Generally, the left supports Hamas, the right supports Israel.
> 
> Why?






SirRumpole said:


> I think only the uninformed support either of them, they are both crazy.
> 
> But I think your general observation is true. It's a "Conservative vs radical" mindset again. The Israeli government is a far right religious organisation (ring any bells ?) and the Left are against anyone the Right supports.
> 
> ...




I've had the same sense as expressed by Wayne, not just on this forum, but across general society, the ABC in particular as an archetypal Left organisation.
Rumpole, yes, as a broad observation but any such complete alignment with one side or the other still leaves me puzzled considering how extraordinarily complex the whole situation is.

Agree especially with Retired Young's very rational remarks.


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

Some excerpts from the Hamas Covenant 1988.

_Article 7:

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

*"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."* (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Article 8:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: *Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.*

Article 11:

*The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day*. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

Article 13 (On Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences):

*Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement..........

.... There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. *

Article 16:

It is necessary to follow Islamic orientation in educating the Islamic generations in our region by teaching the religious duties, comprehensive study of the Koran, the study of the Prophet's Sunna (his sayings and doings), and learning about Islamic history and heritage from their authentic sources. This should be done by specialised and learned people, using a curriculum that would healthily form the thoughts and faith of the Moslem student. *Side by side with this, a comprehensive study of the enemy, his human and financial capabilities, learning about his points of weakness and strength, and getting to know the forces supporting and helping him, should also be included. Also, it is important to be acquainted with the current events, to follow what is new and to study the analysis and commentaries made of these events.* Planning for the present and future, studying every trend appearing, is a must so that the fighting Moslem would live knowing his aim, objective and his way in the midst of what is going on around him._

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

I am sure there are also Jewish holy texts that have bequeathed the same land to the Jews, but that is hardly a reason to ignore the goals of Hamas. Both sides are at fault. 

Now some may argue that Hamas has renounced wanting all disputed lands, including Israel itself, to be under Islamic Sharia control and will accept a 2 State solution. However, they have refused to amend their charter to accomodate that saying that was impossible to do (one wonders why). But in any case, as followers of Taqqiya, they are fully aware that lying to achieve political objectives that promote Islam is acceptable. Some interesting reading on this:

*Taqqiya - An Tactic of Lying, Concealment*

_Islamists interpret their scripture to say that they are allowed to lie about the nature of Islam in order to further their political goals._

http://www.clarionproject.org/understanding-islamism/taqqiya-tactic-lying-concealment


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2014)

This may or may not be true, but he seems to have received it through several sources....

*Israeli-Palestinian cease fire lasts four hours, broken by Hamas rockets and kidnapping an Israeli soldier*

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress...as-rockets-and-kidnapping-an-israeli-soldier/

One source....

_Robert Serry, the United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, condemned Palestinians for breaking the agreed-to ceasefire, which was supposed to last for 72 hours._

And a point I make over and over again (from the blog author)....

_One might almost think that Hamas doesn’t want a cease-fire, but prefers the carnage to continue so that it can gain the approbation of the West that comes from Israel’s retaliation. What other explanation is there for breaking this agreement by firing rockets and kidnapping a soldier?
_


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

Julia said:


> That's an entirely disingenuous construction and has no genuine relativity to the Palestinian/Israel problem.
> 
> Yet this admission does not seem to have stopped you taking a distinct 'side', as distinct from those of us who have recognised the enormous problems for both sides.
> 
> ...




The scenario sounds like a bad fiction I agree, but maybe give me some credit for trying to analogise it with actual history and current events. 

As they say, sometimes the truth are stranger than fictions... and what Israel has done is a joke if it weren't so tragic.

---
I didn't say my view was formed on the basis of those two documentaries. I remember clearly saying that those were the only thing i look at a while back, probably before the internet, or at least before anything like youtube was around... And also, since they only show the side of the Palestinians, I don't know why the Israeli does what it does.

I did say that from those two documentaries, I did NOT form any opinions except for the normal reaction one gets when one see a person's home being torn down because of something their son did. If you read again, I have said that even then, I thought maybe Israel was tough but was only trying to defend itself.


Maybe I'm just a genius, and I assure you I am not, but the subject is quite simple to understand.

That is, once you accept the possibilities that maybe the Jewish Israeli people are also human and could lie, could commit atrocities, could fight wars, could take people's land as any other race in the history of the world (yes, Palestinians included) has when they have the might to do so... then it's quite simple to accept facts and arguments made by renown scholars and political scientists and Human Rights reports.

I don't read on this subject, I youtube the subject and go to the lectures given by such people as Noam Chomsky, John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt, Norman Finkelstein...

So you can fault me in not going to the primary sources, that I get my info second or third hand. That's fair enough, but not important because if you listen to their arguments, the facts they presented and the logic of their conclusions make perfect sense.

How do i know? I guess because I know a thing or two about people and about world affairs, know when I'm being sold a lemon and know when I'm listening to intelligent arguments.

So while I can't give you a report or a link to each case of Israel not accepting peaceful settlements, you can search the lectures and the debates given by the people above.

One reason one I saw is by Noam Chomsky:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV3YnZnL99M 

Skip to minute 55 where he concludes the three possibilities to the conflict, and what has been the policies of Israel-US to now: To take what is valuable in the land of Palestine, leave the Palestinians isolated in cantons/enclaves and so they are theoretically independent and no civil rights movement, no responsibilities.

*also minute 137 - 141:* Answer to an example of Israel-US and Egypt's peace settlement.

Combine that with what former US president Jimmy Carter said in his interviews on his book "Palestinian Peace, not Apartheid". Where a former US president said what he observed in the West Bank is Israeli building walls not on the 1967 borders, but on what is left of Palestinian West Bank - taking a further 10% of the West Bank thereby... where the border/wall then goes over Israeli settlements, where the Israeli settles and choose the best and most fertile land in the WB and segregate it into small enclaves by roads and check points - this was in his interview with a Canadian show in 2010 or so.

With Chomsky, at minutes 17 he quoted an Israeli leadership as saying something like "we have to make sure the Palestinian will know they will get nothing from us, that they will live like dogs or get out". Chomsky points out that those who can have gotten out, those who cannot must stay and enjoy life there I suppose.

You can listen to various lectures by Norman Finkelstein... he give numerous examples of Israeli's peaceful intentions. Again, sometime Finkelstein can use strong language, but I agree with Prof. John Mearsheimer's opinion of him is that his insights are remarkably accurately, just maybe his language and wording could be tone down a bit on such controversial topics.

You can again argue that I don't check out these people's sources to verify their conclusions before agreeing with them... but I tend to only ask that kind of questions when the conclusions are just preposterous and suspect.

Example, Mearsheimer points out that if you're a nuclear power, no one is going to start a war with you. That nuclear weapons are generally build for deterrent/defensive measures, not offensive... that makes sense and I believe I have spent some time to explain why I think it make sense - quoting JFK and all.

I don't need to go and read books to verify whether or not Israel was fighting defensive wars of survival because it is obvious to me that if you're a powerful military with the most advance weapons and unrelenting support from the world's only super power, your safety is pretty much assured when your neighbours are all militarily weak, when the Palestinians have no serious arms, no navy, no airforce, no anti aircraft weapons...

And it is self evident that Israel now controls the entirety of historic Palestine.

And if you need examples, I have point to Miko Peled's lecture - the son of a famous Israeli general etc. - where Peled said he read war room transcripts between his father and other Israeli generals recommending war against unprepared Arab states in 1967; you can also see confirmation of this by Chomsky above.

----
Except for some sarcasm now and then, I think I have made a balanced argument based on my understanding of materials from well researched and well reasoned arguments and conclusions by renown experts and scholars on the subject and on political and military matters.

I mean you could argue that I tend to fight for the little guy, but I came to the topic without any interests to support one side or the other... In fact, if anything I ought to dislike the Palestinians because two Arab looking men broke into my house while me and my family were at home and if it weren't for my parent seeing confronting them the moment they just broke in, I seriously don't know what would happen to us.

---

With regards to Hamas... as far as i'm concern, if they're not there, the same thing will just happen regardless - just different reasons from Israel. 

You can say I'm pro Hamas or pro terrorism, I'm just pro peace and justice and abhor violence of any kind.

But it is true that I do not take these label of terrorists seriously. I'm neutral so have the luxury to see that soldiers do what they do, armies do what they do... to call them militants, terrorists or the Defence Forces, the good guy and the bad... that's too simplistic to me.

And lastly, I'm more interested on the matter now because as a citizen of the "western power", I am uncomfortable hearing how Mearsheimer and Walt point to evidence from the 911 Commission where they found that the mastermind of that terrorist attack does so in part, and it is a major but not the only reason, because of the hatred of western policies and supports of Israel's policies on the Palestinians.

In other words, I don't want injustice done in my name or with my support and where potential blowbacks from such acts my family, myself, you and us might have to pay for.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2014)

Link to Chomsky's discussion regarding the latest Hamas-PA's unity party and the peace process that ended - May 2014.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEpn68BZIOY


----------



## luutzu (2 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Some excerpts from the Hamas Covenant 1988.
> 
> _Article 7:
> 
> ...





You might be interested to look at how non-Jewish Israelis are being treated in Israel; how black Jewish migrants are treated; how African refugees are treated and be labeled "infiltrators" by whiter, purer Jewish Israelis.

I don't know if Arab states are also as racist, but Israel certainly do not look and sound like a kind and progressive state to me.


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> You might be interested to look at how non-Jewish Israelis are being treated in Israel; how black Jewish migrants are treated; how African refugees are treated and be labeled "infiltrators" by whiter, purer Jewish Israelis.
> 
> I don't know if Arab states are also as racist, but Israel certainly do not look and sound like a kind and progressive state to me.




You simply don't get it, do you? Criticism of Hamas is not endorsement of Israel, its policies or the attitudes of its citizens.



> I don't know if Arab states are also as racist




Then you really know very little. I'm done discussing this issue with you. You must be living in a complete vacuum.


----------



## luutzu (2 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> You simply don't get it, do you? Criticism of Hamas is not endorsement of Israel, its policies or the attitudes of its citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you really know very little. I'm done discussing this issue with you. You must be living in a complete vacuum.




The premise is true and I agree, just it's somewhat dishonest since you clearly endorse Israeli policies.

I mean, if i say that a person being beaten up is sad and make my heart cry, but the beater is put in an "impossible situation" to have to do the beating. What am I really saying? That his hand was forced, that he didn't want to beat people up, just it's impossible not to do something.

Anyway, Chomsky just reminded me why I got into stocks in the first place. Back to it.


----------



## IFocus (2 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think only the uninformed support either of them, they are both crazy.
> 
> But I think your general observation is true. It's a "Conservative vs radical" mindset again. The Israeli government is a far right religious organisation (ring any bells ?) and the Left are against anyone the Right supports.
> 
> ...





Thats a fair assessment I think.

Israels ruling party has moved significantly to the right and the latest actions, public statements from high level ministers reassert that. 

I dont hear much support backing Hamas  as they hardly represent ideals from the left but think there is a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians and their plight.


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> The premise is true and I agree, just it's somewhat dishonest since you clearly endorse Israeli policies.
> 
> I mean, if i say that a person being beaten up is sad and make my heart cry, but the beater is put in an "impossible situation" to have to do the beating. What am I really saying? That his hand was forced, that he didn't want to beat people up, just it's impossible not to do something.




What you are really saying is that you will do every thing possible to tarnish me because you don't like the opinion I express and you appear to be working to some agenda. This became obvious when you continuously misconstrue what I have said which from the outset has been to call out Hamas as deserving of condemnation and not just Israel. You now, in spite of all I have written, claim that I was endorsing Israeli policies.

But I am aware of your subtle ploy. In response to me saying:

_I think that article encapsulates what many of us feel about this conflict. Shocked with the overreaction of Israel, but somewhat understanding of the impossible situation they are in._

But you claimed that this is what I said, or as far as you remember this is what I said:

_"I could be wrong in that you really didn't mean what you imply, but I think that when you say something like... it's heart breaking that a person is kill but the killer was in an "impossible situation", that it was either kill or be kill, that it was a fight for survival or Shoah... I don't think my conclusion was unfounded"_

It was just now when trying to figure out your agenda that I bothered to check out what Shoah meant. It is the modern Hebrew word for the Holocaust. Why would you have tried to suggest that I was using Hebrew words?

But I have taken a look back though your posts and what do I find? You obviously know a lot about Middle Eastern politics which makes it obvious that you are well read and have done a fairly extensive study in that area. But then you come out with: _"I don't know enough about Hamas to make any stance". _ Yeah, I'm sure you don't. You tell us you have only seen a few TV shows on Palestine, but then cite all this stuff that you have seen on TV about racism and hatred in Israel towards Palestinians. you provide lots of examples of various people from Israel criticising their own people, their own government etc., which is probably true, but belies your apparent ignorance of anything bad associated with the Palestinians or Arabs in general. What about this clanger:

_"I don't know if Arab states are also as racist, but Israel certainly do not look and sound like a kind and progressive state to me."_

You seem to know everything that is bad about Israel and the Israelis, but express complete ignorance when it comes to what may be bad on the non-Israeli side, particularly when they encompass some of the most intolerant nations on earth and atrocities committed in those countries against others, whether they be religious or ethnically based are in the news daily. And never mind the large scale murderous campaigns that are daily headline news, but we have horrendous stories of poor migrant workers from countries like the Philippines, Indonesia and Bangladesh being tortured and abused by employers of all sorts in Arabic countries. Poor Indonesian maids being whipped, raped, scalded and receiving other abuse from Saudi families. Bangladeshi and Indian workers not being paid for months on Dubai building sites and often kept in slavelike conditions with their passports held preventing return home, not that they can afford the fares.

But you, who has such a deep understanding of events in the ME and knowing the minutest detail of what is wrong in Israel, don't know anything about that other stuff.


----------



## wayneL (2 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think only the uninformed support either of them, they are both crazy.
> 
> But I think your general observation is true. It's a "Conservative vs radical" mindset again. The Israeli government is a far right religious organisation (ring any bells ?) and the Left are against anyone the Right supports.
> 
> ...




A the face of it that seems a reasonable assessment. But conservative and radical are relative assessments. Many leftist regimes are also conservative, in that they have 'establishments' that don't like challenges to the status quo.

The extremes of boths sides are ideological rather than pragmatic, the underdogs relative to who is top dog.

I wouldn't discount the religious influence, but not all of the right are religious, nor are all of the left agnostic atheist.

There must be something deeper.


----------



## luutzu (2 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> What you are really saying is that you will do every thing possible to tarnish me because you don't like the opinion I express and you appear to be working to some agenda. This became obvious when you continuously misconstrue what I have said which from the outset has been to call out Hamas as deserving of condemnation and not just Israel. You now, in spite of all I have written, claim that I was endorsing Israeli policies.
> 
> But I am aware of your subtle ploy. In response to me saying:
> 
> ...




I don't have any agenda. I'm Vietnamese for crying out loud.
I live in a area where there's a lot of Arab/Lebanese people but I am new to the area and don't have any Arab friends.. actually I don't have any friends as you can tell, haha...


It might appear that I have a thing for Hamas, but I don't think it's fair to take the fact that I neither defend nor support them to mean that I am on their side... I just don't know enough about them or what they've done, or bothered to look up their histories etc etc..

To me, they're a non-entity in what we're talking about.

To call out their acts of terror, to call them a terrorists... I don't look at such things for the same reason I don't look at the "terrorist" activities the Jewish Israeli did to fight the British, then the Palestinians before 1947.


They were elected by the Gazans, I do know that they kill a few of their fellow Palestinians - the Fatah leaderships in Gaza to get to power - do I support that? No!

I mean, you can blame Hamas if you like, and yes they're evil and criminals... what about the West Bank? As far as i've heard, there's no Hamas organisation in the WB, there's the Palestinian Authority right? So what's the explanations given for Israeli occupation and annexation of those territories?

What has been Israeli policies before Hamas? The same.

So Hamas is a non-entity as far as I'm concern.

---
There's racism in every culture, every country. And I've heard, I think it was from Prof. Walt, that surveys of Arabs have indicated they all pretty much hated the Israelis and almost all hated US policies. And if you look what the things the US and Israel has done to them or their people, it's easy to see why.

At the same time, I've said before, that Walt pointed out that the surveys show most Arabs prefer "western values", prefer democracies to the tyrants and religious fundamentalisms that are forced on them by tyrants whose power is backed by US might.

You might want to think that the Saudi Arabian citizens, the Arabs, there love the Saudi king or whatever they have there... but the Royal family in Saudi Arabia is only there because of the US... This is from the second Chomsky lecture cited above, where he also said that during the Iraqi wars, the Saudi have made it clear to the US that they don't mind and will support it etc etc.

So to say that all Arab nations and all Arab people are the same is just wrong; or to say that all Arab nation will wipe Israel off the map if they given the chance... That might be true but it's only true because when you are weak and the other is strong, they will take your country and subjugate your people - it's not true because they're the Arabs and they will only take over Israel because Jews live there.

As Chomsky also pointed out in that lecture at the end... the Arabs and the world doesn't care about what happened or what is happening to the Palestinians... and the reason they don't care is because the Palestinians have nothing to offer them... no oil, no gas, no money... to befriend a Palestinian is to befriend a beggar you have to feed, clothes, house and to get to do that, you'll have to go up against a mighty power backed by a super mighty power.

Who in their right mind would do that?

So all these claims about Arabian hordes and Israel fighting for survival, not only is it groundless given Israel and the Arab nations' history and dealings with Israel, it's nonsensical as a matter of logic and national self interest.

----

To your point about me looking at the racism in Israel and not in Arab countries. It's just my assumption that probably most Arabs dislike the Israeli Jews. No need to see why or if that's true.

I look at some clips surveying Israelis Jewish opinions because I was curious how it's like in Israel, what the Israeli think... And as I've said, I don't take these to represent the view of the Jewish people or even Israeli policies... though the little more that I look, the more racism I see in political and judiciary systems and laws.

You know, when the Israeli claims they're democratic, that they represents my values of justice and a fair go, where they say an Arab Israeli lives free and fair and could even be Israel's PM... I thought to take a look and see... and the results, while not conclusive, is Israel's policies and laws are racist.

I mean, beat up the Palestinians for all I care... I'm old enough and will slowly not be surprised at the things people do... but if Israel does it, don't do it in my name, don't drag my family and my country's values into it.


I saw a documentary titled "Why we Fight" in 2002/3... and in it an analysts/historian talks about "blowback" - a CIA term for retaliations for operations they have done. He was saying that 911 was a blowback, just on US soil.
You can assume that it's also in Bali, in London...

I am never excusing that terrorism or violence... and in many ways, I'm happy for myself and my children that the Western powers have to prop up dictators and control to world... because as far as i'm concern, that's good for me and my children.. .and I hope the US and the Western powers continue to dominate and China and Russia and all other powers remain weak lest my kids have to go to war...

I like to think i'm like this Australian diplomat I saw in a documentary a while back about how Australia draw its Exclusive Economic Zone using funny geographic and legal maths to take most of Indonesian or  East Timor's claim to the gas fields. He said it's immortal and wrong and he feel terrible, but it's in Australia's national interests so he does it.

So Israel can lie and do what they do for their national interests, just don't use my name or lie to me about doing it to project my values and how we're both alike. Why? Because it's morally offensive what they're doing, doing it in my name, I get no benefit from it but might one day have to pay the price for their greed.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2014)

wayneL said:


> There must be something deeper.




I'm sure there is, but you made a very general statement which could only be answered with a very general reply.

For example, if we consider other religious caliphates (which Hamas want to form out of Palestine/Israel), would we consider those either Left or Right wing ? 

Saudi Arabia could be considered Right wing as it is ruled by a small number of very rich people, while Iran could be considered Left Wing as it is ruled by a large council, with an appointed Head of State (maybe similar to China). Both are highly religious autocracies and I wonder whether our traditional definitions of Left and Right actually apply in either case.


----------



## DeepState (2 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> So Israel can lie and do what they do for their national interests, just don't use my name or lie to me about doing it to project my values and how we're both alike. Why? Because it's morally offensive what they're doing, doing it in my name, I get no benefit from it but might one day have to pay the price for their greed.




Here is a video from an important source of knowledge, YouTube.  It is even set to music. It relates to a lie the Western alliance, including Australia's Prime Minister, concocted in our name in order to invade another sovereign state.  It resulted in the deaths of over 7,000 military personnel.  It led to the deaths and permanent wounding of many many more who just wanted to get on with their lives, but had their doors kicked in routinely and much worse.  It has left a power vacuum which has now destabilized the country, region, and created blowback of enormous proportion....

Where did you say you lived?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJ6COsJQcc

Forget about Israel.  This is in your backyard.


----------



## Macquack (2 August 2014)

Israel has invaded another country and *has weapons of mass destruction*.

I think we should go in and *kick Benjamin Netanyahu ass*, the same way we gave it to Saddam Hussein (who did not even have weapons of mass destruction).


----------



## noco (2 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Israel has invaded another country and *has weapons of mass destruction*.
> 
> I think we should go in and *kick Benjamin Netanyahu ass*, the same way we gave it to Saddam Hussein (who did not even have weapons of mass destruction).




So you believe that Hamas are the good guys?

We are hearing a lot about Israel and Palestine where 1270 have been killed in 23 days but we have not  heard much about Syria where 1500 were killed yesterday in one day.

Muslims fighting Muslims.


----------



## Macquack (2 August 2014)

noco said:


> So you believe that Hamas are the good guys?
> 
> We are hearing a lot about Israel and Palestine where 1270 have been killed in 23 days but we have not  heard much about Syria where 1500 were killed yesterday in one day.
> 
> Muslims fighting Muslims.




There you go again, "I hate all muslims".

One atrocity at a time, please.

Also, you "cut and paste" everything else, so how about some links to the *number of deaths *that you have provided?


----------



## Calliope (2 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> .
> 
> I think we should go in and *kick Benjamin Netanyahu ass*



*

We? You and who else?*


----------



## Macquack (2 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> We? You and who else?




The "Coalition of the Willing" of course.

They are not that hard to con, are they?


----------



## noco (2 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> There you go again, "I hate all muslims".
> 
> One atrocity at a time, please.
> 
> Also, you "cut and paste" everything else, so how about some links to the *number of deaths *that you have provided?




I did not mention Muslims only Hamas.....get your facts right.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War

Muslims fighting Muslims...brothers killing each other in Syria.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/22/syrian-fighting-violence.html

700 Syrian Muslims killed in 2 days....I did hear on some news article as that figure as being 1500.


----------



## luutzu (2 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> Here is a video from an important source of knowledge, YouTube.  It is even set to music. It relates to a lie the Western alliance, including Australia's Prime Minister, concocted in our name in order to invade another sovereign state.  It resulted in the deaths of over 7,000 military personnel.  It led to the deaths and permanent wounding of many many more who just wanted to get on with their lives, but had their doors kicked in routinely and much worse.  It has left a power vacuum which has now destabilized the country, region, and created blowback of enormous proportion....
> 
> Where did you say you lived?
> 
> ...




I consider myself a normal guy who can read, maybe I'm not because I seriously don't know whether you're being sarcastic or know what you're saying most of the time.

I think you reckon youtube only has either videos of cute kitty cats or uploads of crazy rants or something. That or its contents are not valuable because it's free or something.

YouTube is the best thing since television, and through it, my eyes have been open to a lot of seriously intelligent debates and discussions around the world, on all topics, than anything I have ever found on the mainstream media and only rarely at my local library or video shops' documentary section when I was growing up.


Did I support the Iraq war? That's what you seem to imply, or that I should be debating about Iraq and its consequences?

... I laughed at the idea that Saddam have WMD because it sound insane to march into Baghdad like cowboys with gas masks, but I admit I wasn't sure if they have WMD or not until later when i watch the news. 

Maybe Howard joining the "coalition of the willing" [?] and send our soldiers there was for our national interests - stronger alliance with the US, maybe a couple of big contracts, secure oil supplies else the Russian or Chinese might get there... who knows... and there might be blowbacks because of that, or just terrorist act against Australians no matter what we do, or that we ought to do what is to our interests and take the consequences as they come.

You might be right that Israel and whatever consequences from it to Australian are nil and our involvement with Iraq would do us more harm... but I don't think Israel's actions should be ignore on Australian national interest terms for the following reasons:

1. Israel claim to be a democratic, liberal, civilised country with "western value" and ideals and are fighting for its survival - and by extension, fighting for our value, our way of life;
-- There's a fairly large Islamic population to our northern borders yea? Many Australians have been killed in that terrorist act in Bali yea? My kids, your kids might go to Bali one day... heaven forbid some misguided kid got brainwashed by some terror cells - see that Bali is where westerners frequent, western values was what Israel did in Palestine against his God and his people... 

It's not far fetched at all. Mearsheimer and Walt in their lectures on the Israeli lobby and US foreign policies cited how Bin Laden grew up hating the US for its support of Israel, how that mastermind of the 911 attack wasn't at all religious but hate the US for what it and Israel did to the Palestinians, how bin Laden wanted to move the day of the attack to coincide with certain Israeli days...

Of course most of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and they hate the US for its policies there...

I agree with you that we will always have enemies, we cannot let our enemies dictate our policies... I'm all for that. But how does being grouped with Israel's actions and values towards the Palestinians benefit Australia? I fail to see any.

Heck, they bomb Gaza and we have to send Gazan $5 million, and that's just a band aid... I'd rather we send Gaza aid to help it thrive, not make it not die too quickly from a miserable death, that's repeated on them every couple of years.

---

The other reason I don't like what Israel is doing is petty but I just don't like people killing anyone, let alone civilians and children in their thousands, year in year out... I don't like people who are racist, who systematically cleanse another ethnic group, who continuously occupy their land and destroy what livelihood people managed to rake out from whatever land or material they could managed to gathered over the years since displacement... who brutalise and subjugate fellow human beings... then, then have to nerve to tell me that if i were in their shoes, I would do the same.

And i'm upset, petty as it is, that all these time I was made a sucker and didn't know it.


----------



## luutzu (2 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> We? You and who else?




John Kerry, Barrack Obama, French president Sarkozy, just about all South American head of states, any Jewish people whose name he claim to be fighting in... me. 

Sarkozy and Obama hate the guy, check this out...


----------



## DeepState (2 August 2014)

noco said:


> 700 Syrian Muslims killed in 2 days....I did hear on some news article as that figure as being 1500.





....and > 1,737 in Iraq just last month...after the installation of a puppet and a war of liberation for their and the world's benefit which was supposed to bring democracy and lasting peace to the region.  

Reads like some economic statistic, July deaths were >1,737, down from 2,400 in June.  GDP is expected to improve as the rate of deaths for July came below the Bloomberg survey of economists.  Ten year bond yields rose by 15 basis points.

From Wall St Journal





Which group is more morally offensive?  Israel, Hamas, US, Australia, Great Britain, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Saudi Royalty, Russian separatists, Russia, Hizbollah, drug lords at the border of Guatamala and Honduras...

Perhaps pretext to war should simply state: "We are going in.  We can because we got the bombs and they don't.  We want their stuff." How about that.  Truth in war.  So much better, don't you think?


----------



## Macquack (2 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> The other reason I don't like what Israel is doing is petty but I just don't like people killing anyone, let alone civilians and children in their thousands, year in year out... I don't like people who are racist, who systematically cleanse another ethnic group, who continuously occupy their land and destroy what livelihood people managed to rake out from whatever land or material they could managed to gathered over the years since displacement... who brutalise and subjugate fellow human beings... then, then have to nerve to tell me that if i were in their shoes, I would do the same.




Could not agree with you more.

On your comments about the Israeli president, the way the leader of the "chosen people" talks down to US president Obama, you would think Benjamin Netanyahu is the leader of the free world. 

Netanyahu is just a superior prick.


----------



## Macquack (2 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> Which group is more morally offensive?  Israel, Hamas, US, Australia, Great Britain, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Saudi Royalty, Russian separatists, Russia, Hizbollah, drug lords at the border of Guatamala and Honduras...
> 
> Perhaps pretext to war should simply state: "We are going in.  We can because we got the bombs and they don't.  We want their stuff." How about that.  Truth in war.  So much better, don't you think?




Sums up what actually happens minus all the propaganda bull****.

Who are the masters of propaganda???


----------



## luutzu (2 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> ....and > 1,737 in Iraq just last month...after the installation of a puppet and a war of liberation for their and the world's benefit which was supposed to bring democracy and lasting peace to the region.
> 
> Reads like some economic statistic, July deaths were >1,737, down from 2,400 in June.  GDP is expected to improve as the rate of deaths for July came below the Bloomberg survey of economists.  Ten year bond yields rose by 15 basis points.
> 
> ...




Does the facts that there are worst atrocities excuse or lessen this atrocities?

Does that fact that this is what the mighty does to the weak and the poor excuse it?

Does the fact that Hitler "only" murder some 5.7 million Jews make that less a crime than the death of some 20 million in Poland, some 26 million Russians and all the deaths from WW2 more of a crime than the Holocaust?

I bet that if you do a survey of people in the US or Australia as to who suffer during WW2, the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it. 

Nagasaki or Hiroshima - forget it, they deserve it; the Chinese in Nanjing; the South East Asians, the people of the Pacific; the Russian, the other Europeans, the Africans... their suffering are just casualties of war while the Jewish death are more special.

No one is making light of the Holocaust, no one is making light of any death or war or suffering... maybe we ought to learn from it, maybe we ought to try to prevent it - to any group of people, from any group of people.


----------



## Macquack (2 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I bet that if you do a survey of people in the US or Australia as to who suffer during WW2, the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it.
> 
> Nagasaki or Hiroshima - forget it, they deserve it; the Chinese in Nanjing; the South East Asians, the people of the Pacific; the Russian, the other Europeans, the Africans... their suffering are just casualties of war while the Jewish death are more special.




Bingo, the truth finally comes out.

The Jews are the only people to be persecuted and murdered in history.

But, it is OK to do the same to the Palestinians.


----------



## luutzu (2 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Could not agree with you more.
> 
> On your comments about the Israeli president, the way the leader of the "chosen people" talks down to US president Obama, you would think Benjamin Netanyahu is the leader of the free world.
> 
> Netanyahu is just a superior prick.




Yea, he's a delusional moron in a class of his own.

I read that Obama called him recently to talk of ceasefire or peace talks, Netanyahu then went on air almost right way and tell Israel and the world to prepare for a long and sustained war.


----------



## Macquack (2 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Yea, he's a delusional moron in a class of his own.
> 
> I read that Obama called him recently to talk of ceasefire or peace talks, Netanyahu then went on air almost right way and tell Israel and the world to prepare for a long and sustained war.




When Obama first came to power he hinted at not taking any sh*t from Israel. However the jewish lobby soon shut him up. Now that Obama is towards the end of his presidency, I hope he makes a tangible stand against that f***ing war monger Netanyahu.


----------



## DeepState (3 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> 1. Did I support the Iraq war? That's what you seem to imply, or that I should be debating about Iraq and its consequences?
> 
> 2. Israel claim to be a democratic, liberal, civilised country with "western value" and ideals and are fighting for its survival - and by extension, fighting for our value, our way of life;
> 
> ...





1. Seems to have sailed over your head like a Scud missile as per so many of the comments made in response to your views. 

The point was to highlight that Australia, Great Britain and the US lead a coalition of the willing under a context (World Trade) and under very poor intel about WMD that was so bad it can only be regarded as formulated pretext (say, the killing of three Israeli kids by their own army as you can't seem to rule out) to invade a country because it had WMD as was part of a newly invented Axis of Evil, turn it upside down, killed and maimed so many multiples of the people you are talking about here, with weaponry so far ahead of the opposition that they might as well be throwing rocks.  What we...you live in the country...did can be seen in the same light as you see Israel.  Actually, it was far worse.  We also live with democratic values yadda yadda.  Many people in this country don't like to kill either.  They don't like to see little kids under rubble either.  But we did it.  And you are part of it, just like a stack of other Israelis are part of their war despite having similar humanitarian urges.  And we left behind a catastrophe whose full horror has yet to reveal itself.  That's what a power vacuum looks like. Israel is a cute kitty cat in comparison to this.  And you live and breathe and enjoy the freedoms and benefits of a country that did this.  

If the actions of Israel upset you,  Behold the horror of the nation you live in, under whose protections you enjoy. And we don't even have to go into the Vietnam War, do we?

Welcome to the world, you're standing in it.


2. How is that different to what John Howard was saying?  Israel cannot lose a war.  That's the reality. You keep going on and on about Mearsheimer.  Morganthau was his mentor.  Dr. Realist.  Mearsheimer added some tought to it.  International politics occurs in an anarchic framework.  In this world, which is the one you actually live in were you to look beyond documentaries, nations compete.  They expand where they can.  They want more. And, so the world develops.  What you are seeing in Israel/Palestine is realism in action writ large.  Feel free to carry a World Peace protect flag.  This stuff is truly ugly. You don't have to like it.  But Israel is just acting as Mearsheimer and Morganthau would predict.

The greatest bastion of democracy and its values is the US.  Are you aware of the amount of stuff they get up to in the name of defending the way of life?  They've probably got you bugged and know which YouTube videos you have been watching to check if you are a jihadist.  Think about it....before you click on another anti-Israeli link.  Are you aware of how many wars, skirmishes, indirect financing, toppling of leadership, violations of human rights, atom bombs released....have taken place to defend the values you want so much?  This is the price.  There is no Boxing Day discount for this.  This is the price.  Mistakes and all.


3. Yes there is.  France, the UK, Poland and Russia also had a lot of Germans near their borders too.  Rather a lot closer to their densely populated centers.  When they tried not to provoke the re-militarizing Germans (let's not upset them....nooo.. they might hate us and hurt us...).  Umm...let me spell it out.  The European Theatre descended into World War II.  Thus far, the greatest human tragedy we have ever recorded.  That's what appeasement does. 


4. ....and the US avenged the deaths of Americans in the Trade Centre completely disproportionately.  Radicalizing a stack of Muslims, many more of which would gladly fly a plane into the White House.  Great move that.  The deal that was done with Saudi Arabia in terms of oil vs protection was made with the leadership.  It was genuinely important for US strategic interests.  These are the trade-offs on a world scale.  As Kissinger puts it, statesmen should be exempt from war crimes, because of the things they must do to defend their states.  If you don't like it and think it hypocritical, you might wish to reconsider whether what they say as truth.  Think like Mearsheimer.  What comes out of their mouths is what you want to hear.  Then they get on with the actual realities.  We all liked fairy tales once.  Some of us still seem to.

How many of Bin Laden's family were living it up in the US when the twin towers were hit?  He might have hated the US, but a whole bunch of others seemed pretty happy about it.  Can't please every radical, I guess.


5. .....open...your...eyes.


6. You don't have to like it. It is disgusting.  You don't have to pull the trigger if a rifle was put in your hands.  You can hand it to the guy charging at you with a fixed bayonet instead. But, many soldiers in war feel the same.  Check out the history of Gallipoli when it became trench warfare.  They just wanted to go home too.  No-one says this is nice. Well, not me, anyway.


7.  You still don't know it. Can you not make some allowance for the variety of comments you have received to see the barest morsel of truth in them? After all, they are reasonably aligned in disagreement and don't seem to write as if they are the same poster on multiple accounts.  From the thread the likelihood is, actually, no. You won't listen and things therefore will not change and you will go on about it and think something uniquely hyprocritical is going on, whose values you do not share despite happily sharing in the benefits.  Peace is so precious.  But often the price is war.

In this case, it is a blood feud.  That is the nastiest form of war.


----------



## DeepState (3 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Does the facts that there are worst atrocities excuse or lessen this atrocities?
> 
> Does that fact that this is what the mighty does to the weak and the poor excuse it?
> 
> ...






There is no right.  No-one gets to claim the moral high ground.  And yet, once again, where nations fail, you stand atop the mountain of righteousness enjoying the view without bothering to look at the fact that this mountain is covered in blood. Get it?


----------



## DeepState (3 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I bet that if you do a survey of people in the US or Australia as to who suffer during WW2, the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it.




I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about.  This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal.  Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.

Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.

The United States lost 418,500 lives with many many more wounded.

What kind of warped mind comes up with the statement you have just made?  This hits rock bottom.  You cannot produce anything more vile than this.  

....the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it..... disgusting.

LuuTzu:  I will put up as a wager, the value of whatever assets you can muster together, down to the cufflink, including whatever 50 years of your personal servitude might be worth as a servant of the War Memorials in Australia and in the US.  I will take that bet.  I will take that bet *RIGHT NOW*.


----------



## noco (3 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Sums up what actually happens minus all the propaganda bull****.
> 
> Who are the masters of propaganda???




THE FABIANS....


----------



## waza1960 (3 August 2014)

> I hope he makes a tangible stand against that f***ing war monger Netanyahu.





> Yea, he's a delusional moron in a class of his own.





> Netanyahu is just a superior prick.




Sheesh the Lefties got on the turps last night wonder if they have a hangover this morning.

BTW Agree totally with Retired Young's perspective with the exception of Iraq war, quite insightful posts.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2014)

noco said:


> THE FABIANS....




:topic


----------



## noco (3 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> :topic




Yes it was a bit off topic Rumpy but the questioned was asked and I answered it the best way I could.


----------



## Julia (3 August 2014)

Some well expressed,impeccable logic from one person in particular which, thank goodness, helps to balance out the rubbish, especially including those where asterisks appear to replace a more edifying vocabulary.

Just on what is unfolding in Iraq, I'm reminded of the pathetic, whining attempt at justification after it was demonstrated that there were no WMD, "Well, we did them a favour by getting rid of that evil dictator, Saddam".
Not looking like such a great idea now, is it?


----------



## Macquack (3 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about.  This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal.  Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.
> 
> Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.
> 
> ...




You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, *denouncing war*, aren't you?

Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians. 

Israel can look after itself.


----------



## Bintang (3 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Israel can look after itself.




You seem to be acknowledging that Israel has the right to defend itself?


----------



## DeepState (3 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> 1. You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, *denouncing war*, aren't you?
> 
> 2. Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.
> 
> 3. Israel can look after itself.




Well, hello.


1. Really?



luutzu said:


> I am never excusing that terrorism or violence... and in many ways, _I'm happy for myself and my children that the Western powers have to prop up dictators and control to world... because as far as i'm concern, that's good for me and my children.. .and I hope the US and the Western powers continue to dominate and China and Russia and all other powers remain weak lest my kids have to go to war_...




I think he's pretty happy to wage war and for others to have their blood spilled and rights violated because "that's good for him (me) and his children".  A real peace maker.  Let's sing Kumbuyah around the campfire.  I'll bring marshmallows.



2. It's a strange kind of voice he's giving to the Palestinians as underdogs:



luutzu said:


> It might appear that I have a thing for Hamas, but I don't think it's fair to take the fact that I neither defend nor support them to mean that I am on their side... I just don't know enough about them or what they've done, or bothered to look up their histories etc etc..
> 
> I mean, beat up the Palestinians for all I care... I'm old enough and will slowly not be surprised at the things people do...




Perhaps my comprehension is off.  I think it's an undecided for Hamas and 'beat up the Palestinians for all I care' for the, uhh, Palestinians.


3. He is not arguing that, although you might:



Macquack said:


> Israel has invaded another country and *has weapons of mass destruction*.
> 
> I think we should go in and *kick Benjamin Netanyahu ass*, the same way we gave it to Saddam Hussein (who did not even have weapons of mass destruction).




LuuTzu's position is that it's OK to wage war in his name if it directly benefits him and his kids, but it's bad for Israel to wage war in their national interests because they have somehow used his name yadda yadda...



luutzu said:


> So Israel can lie and do what they do for their national interests, just don't use my name or lie to me about doing it to project my values and how we're both alike. Why? Because it's morally offensive what they're doing, doing it in my name, I get no benefit from it but might one day have to pay the price for their greed.




And he finds THAT morally offensive.


Is this difference in our positions quite clear enough?  Is the hypocrisy of Luutzu's moral position now clear enough for all on this thread to see in brilliant HD, that can be loaded onto YouTube?

When I press <Submit Reply> this hits the web.  The NSA can pick it up.  All the best.  I think I'm done here.  Mission Accomplished.


----------



## Macquack (3 August 2014)

Bintang said:


> You seem to be acknowledging that Israel has the right to defend itself?




So do the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.


----------



## noco (3 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Some well expressed,impeccable logic from one person in particular which, thank goodness, helps to balance out the rubbish, especially including those where asterisks appear to replace a more edifying vocabulary.
> 
> Just on what is unfolding in Iraq, I'm reminded of the pathetic, whining attempt at justification after it was demonstrated that there were no WMD, "Well, we did them a favour by getting rid of that evil dictator, Saddam".
> Not looking like such a great idea now, is it?




Julia, I must agree with you in that many of those middle East and North African dictatorships ruled with an iron fist and they did keep their citizens under control whether by fair or foul means, but not so in Syria where two Muslims factions are fighting each other. Saddam Hussein did do a lot of ethnic cleansing by eliminating the Kurds which are another Muslim faction...He gassed the Kurds....but we did not hear anything from the Human Rights organization protesting about his cowardly act on human life.

I believe some of the trouble may have been caused by the USA in trying to convert these regimes into the Western way of democracy and it has not worked......Israel however is a western style democracy which does not suit the bordering countries hence their determination to rid the area of Jews.


----------



## Bintang (3 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> So do the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.




OK. Fine. So does that mean we should all just let them get on with it?
The  talkfest/threadfests can go on forever but they will not change anything.
Neither will Ban Ki-moon.


----------



## Bintang (3 August 2014)

noco said:


> I believe some of the trouble may have been caused by the USA in trying to convert these regimes into the Western way of democracy and it has not worked......Israel however is a western style democracy which does not suit the bordering countries hence their determination to rid the area of Jews.




What if the territory of Israel was a western style democracy but inhabited 100% by muslims. Would this be as equally bothersome for the bordering countries.


----------



## Macquack (3 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> 2. It's a strange kind of voice he's giving to the Palestinians as underdogs:
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by luutzu View Post
> 
> ...




I think you will find lutzu was speaking in jest.



DeepState said:


> When I press <Submit Reply> this hits the web.  The NSA can pick it up.  All the best.  I think I'm done here.  Mission Accomplished.




What is that supposed to mean?


----------



## noco (3 August 2014)

Bintang said:


> What if the territory of Israel was a western style democracy but inhabited 100% by muslims. Would this be as equally bothersome for the bordering countries.




As far as know there is no democracy in Muslim countries except perhaps Indonesia....I really believe it revolves around which Muslim faction is in control....it is either a moderate one or a radical one.

I don't believe you would ever have a Western style Muslim so therefore you would never see 100% Muslims in Israel....they are totally different in their ideology and beliefs for a start.


----------



## DeepState (3 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> 1. I think you will find lutzu was speaking in jest.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. What is that supposed to mean?





What do you know....the mission did not actually conclude per plan. 

1. Can you please tell me which part of the extensive response to Bellenuit in post #135 was written in jest, written in truth, intended to be accurate but putting words in his/her mouth, misconstruing the prior post...it would be helpful because I have to take it literally given all the tangents presented.

LuuTzu doesn't like it when people get pounded by stronger forces.  He is indifferent whether they be Palestinians or some other set of opposition.  That's about the only coherent outcome that I can fathom from the various entries in order for them to have internal consistency.  

His main point is that war is bad unless favourable to him and his family. He finds it morally reprehensible that Israel somehow dragged his name, country and values into it.  

Let's go over some new ground.  In 2003, a war was started.  It was a coalition of willing countries which allied in the common understanding that, in the choice of being "with us or against us", it was absolutely clear that those who were with the US included Great Britain and Australia and.....my goodness, would you look at that,  Israel. Israel was with Australia, shared its values and was probably given a Deputy Sherriff badge as well. The US and Australia were happy enough to partner with Israel in the fight Iraq II in the name of democracy, freedom, Western values and in joint national interest...  Their interests were so strongly aligned that the greatest fear of the western alliance was that a missile strike onto Israeli territory would bring a hail of war into Iraq from the IDF given the need to retaliate.  This would set off a tinder box in the entire region. So a wall of Patriot missiles was erected to protect against this possibility.  That's how strong the bond was.

What suddenly changed such that Israel's ability or right to make the claim that they share these values and see it as a binding identity?  They/we fought a war together.  It was only a decade ago. If Israel falls, imagine the sense of power this will give to its enemies and the consequent effects this would actually have for the national interests of the west....that includes Australia's allies and trading partners. 

Even if the whole thing was a fiction, we go back to Mearsheimer and Morganthau.  Nations with power will use it.  They will create context.  They will do what it takes to get the objective they desire...including bringing a hail of shrapnel onto the populace that elected them.  Do you think it would be good strategy to claim legitimacy via talking about shared values?  Probably.  Wait a minute, wasn't that the line used by the US in fabricating WMD and then going about getting as many confirmatory signatures as possible (including Macedonia, whose contribution to the war was....a letter of support)?  Weren't we a part of this?  Are you morally outraged?  Or you're not because it benefited you and your kids.

Maybe this is clear? 

Even if you wish to disagree with that, the context for Luutzu's outrage, being a war in his name with no benefit to him as opposed to a war of equivalent ferocity if it benefited him should be obvious in its hypocrisy.  Further, he is happy to enjoy the freedoms that come from oppression (unless that was said in jest as well) of others, although the activity of achieving this dusgusts him personally and he is insulted at the prospect/imagination of having to bear arms and deploy them if he were actually at the frontline of the oppression which presumably would benefit his kids.  He casts indignation at the thought that he would act as one of the soldiers that oppresses on his behalf might have to.  Hypocracy.  Happy to get the benefits.  Morally outraged when others seek the same using propoganda.  Indignant about the price paid and morally outraged at what others do so he is able to make these absurd, internally warped and inconsistent claims.


2. This was not obvious enough.

Who are the oppressors and the violated?  The CIA is currently apologising for spying on the US Senate and for the harshness of its interrogation methods which violated the 'laws of war' they helped to draft.  Snowden has unfurled the offensive nature of intrusion into the lives of everyone.  US citizens, heads of state of our allies and probably our own government, ordinary citizens.  The NSA is the largest security apparatus in the US and monitors everything that generates a signal.  They know you.  They know me.  They can profile us in an instant, they know if we are a risk if the templates match what they think a dangerous profile looks like.  It's the same process as detecting fraudulent spending on your credit card, figuring out what you like to buy without you even being aware of it...but on speed.  

We are victims of our own defenders.  They do this in our name.  They did this without our consent.  It violates anything that can be reasonably called western democratic values. Are you morally outraged?

LuuTzu can be morally outraged if he wants.  In this country, it's UnAustralian (what is that exactly? Are they making up something that drags my name and values into some amorphous concept that binds with LuuTzu's without my consent?  I am morally outraged!!), to silence disagreement.  Sometimes, I just try to ignore it...other times, I engage.


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about.  This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal.  Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.
> 
> Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.
> 
> ...




WOW!

Put some context into what I say, at least give me that.

Did I say no one but the Jewish people suffer in WW2? I am pretty sure I wrote the opposite of that... and that's still written in black and white up there.

Do you know why until a month ago for me, and apparently still with you and most in the Western world, we ignore what's going on between Israel-Palestine? Why most of the world glance at the occupation of Palestine and just shrug?

Because we've been taught about the evil of Hitler - killing so  many millions of innocent Jews; because we've seen movies after movies about the death and suffering of the Jewish people; because we've seen the mainstream news on the side of Israel each and every time it kill the Arabs; because Arabs are terrorists and Israelis are like us, the good guys fighting for survival in a harsh and tyrannical world.

I've seen and known about the Holocaust, the concentration camps, the ghettos, the Jewish uprising years before I even known about the number of Polish Holocaust (20 million deaths?), long before the deaths of some 26 million Russians, long before what Imperial Japan did to the Chinese at Nanjing... to this day, I still don't know how many Vietnamese were killed and murdered by Imperial Japan during WW2 - do you?

I can't believe I have to explain that I meant the Holocaust and the suffering of the Jews in WW2 are so big in popular culture, so entrench  in the mind of the general Western public that i would bet if you do a survey, most will think the Jews have had it the worst during WW2... that the public would think they're the only one that suffered.



---
And if you read and listen to Israel and its supporters over the past decades til now... what do you often hear? "Never again", "we will not be silent", "we're protecting our people, our citizens", we're the only democracy in the Middle East; the Arab Israelis are the only Arabs living in a democracy (Netanyahu actually said this); "what would you do"; new wave of anti-Semitic hate; Iran is the new Nazi Germany; this and that guy I don't like is the new Hitler... and on and on...

People are generally good, and when it is just accepted fact in their books and popular culture (and I am not denying this fact) that the Jewish people were murdered by Nazi Germany because of racism, because of their faith... then to hear their media and Israel saying it's the good guy and the Arabs are terrorists...  people, because they could not possibly comprehend the possibility that a people who suffered greatly because of racism, a people who were systematically subjugated in ghettos, then murdered en mass... not many could imagine that this same group of people could then turn around and do exactly the same thing to another group of people!


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> Well, hello.
> 
> 1. Really?
> 
> ...





So Retired Young, are you going to give all your money away now? Or will you claim a tax refund on some charitable donation I assume you must have made through the year?

Does the fact that you help one person but not help all people make you a hypocrite? Does the fact that you donate to a couple charities but not to all charities make you a hypocrite? Does the fact you like your neighbours and talk to them but lock your doors at night make you immoral?

Would you rather the US, our fairly close friend, dominate the world or would you rather China or Indonesia be the next super power challenging the US?


Didn't I say that Israel could beat the Palestinians for all I care? 
Did I not say that the strong will always subjugate the weak?
Did I not also say that I like to think of myself as that Australian diplomat who think it is wrong and immoral to use funny maths and geography to take gas fields off the East Timorese or Indonesian, but he was part of it for the national interests of Australian?

So having said all that, how am I being hypocritical when I tell Israel to not use my name in their wars and their murder of people because there's no benefit for me (and my family)... and not only will there be no benefit to me, I might one day have to pay for their crimes.


Would you like it if I use your name, and get your friends to say that you fully support me.... to use your name, pay you nothing but use your reputation and "managed" people's money.

Following your logic to its conclusions, since anyone would steal and lie anyway, I sure could use your name and claim your support for my interests... it's OK to pay you nothing but if people ever sue you or claim damages against you for my deeds, you'll be fine too because you're not a hypocrite.

------

Didn't I also say that to help the Palestinians is like helping a beggar - you got to give him money, help him get back on his feet, help him build a place to live, get nothing back for it but the hatred of a powerful thug; and that is why, as Chomsky said, no one cares for what happen to the Palestinians.

If it may appear that I care for the wrongs being done to them... maybe I have more of a conscience than you who think to be moral is to give everything up and be with the poor, anything other than that is hypocritical.

Gag on that.



So am I still a hypocrite or just a petty little man, like I said I was up there as well.


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> 1. Seems to have sailed over your head like a Scud missile as per so many of the comments made in response to your views.
> 
> The point was to highlight that Australia, Great Britain and the US lead a coalition of the willing under a context (World Trade) and under very poor intel about WMD that was so bad it can only be regarded as formulated pretext (say, the killing of three Israeli kids by their own army as you can't seem to rule out) to invade a country because it had WMD as was part of a newly invented Axis of Evil, turn it upside down, killed and maimed so many multiples of the people you are talking about here, with weaponry so far ahead of the opposition that they might as well be throwing rocks.  What we...you live in the country...did can be seen in the same light as you see Israel.  Actually, it was far worse.  We also live with democratic values yadda yadda.  Many people in this country don't like to kill either.  They don't like to see little kids under rubble either.  But we did it.  And you are part of it, just like a stack of other Israelis are part of their war despite having similar humanitarian urges.  And we left behind a catastrophe whose full horror has yet to reveal itself.  That's what a power vacuum looks like. Israel is a cute kitty cat in comparison to this.  And you live and breathe and enjoy the freedoms and benefits of a country that did this.
> 
> ...





??

The US wiped out most natives; so were the Australians; so were this and that... well no kidding. 
Should I not be outraged at what Israel is doing or just accept it as a fact of life?

Oh wait, when I do accept it as a fact of life and I like the current world order, i'm a hypocrite... but when I dare get upset at Israel, I'm a little kid who haven't grown up yet.... 


*Summary of your points:*
So peace is precious and the price is war; and war is murder and nasty and not for appeasers like me; To let Hamas or the Palestinian in peace is like Chamberlain and other appeasers and you get Hitler all over again. 

A fair summary?


*My Rebuttal:*

*Fact:* Israel started the current crisis [July 8, 2014] - It does so because Hamas and the PA was forming a unity party so they can represent both Gaza and the West Bank; so they can then negotiate with Israel. Look it up, youtube or paid subscription media would be fine;

*Fact:* When you start a war to break potential peace talks, is the price of that precious peace still war?

*Fact:* Israel has "some" nukes, a powerful military, the Palestinians need Israel's permission to take a piss. Does peace still need war as the price?

*Fact:* All Arab nations has long abandoned the Palestinians; the Palestinian leadership, back to the time of Arafat at least til now have wanted a two state solution, has agreed to give up 80% of their historic homeland for what ever Israel thought ought to be their 20%... Israel and the US has long denied this peace talks and keep on blaming the Palestinians for not wanting peace.

So peace might not have to be paid for by war, must it then be paid for by total subjugation of your rights and dignity, total lost of all your land? Must that be the price of peace if not war?


You take all their land, what you don't or can't take, you have total control over... then when their leadership want to negotiate, you said no and no and no for 47 years now... then after being occupied and suppressed and not having your surrender with some term for your own dignity, you fought back... then you have morons around the world saying, see... terrorists, to give in to these poor and uneducated sand monkeys is appeasement... and war is cruel, the world is cruel but it must be done and we don't like it but that's the price of peace.


----------



## luutzu (3 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> There is no right.  No-one gets to claim the moral high ground.  And yet, once again, where nations fail, you stand atop the mountain of righteousness enjoying the view without bothering to look at the fact that this mountain is covered in blood. Get it?




No-one gets to claim the moral high ground? Tell that to Israel.

I think you seriously believe you know more facts because you paid for it. Cheese, I wonder if I run a news/media company that I make more money from subscribers or from businesses buying advertisements. 

Who needs to grow up i wonder.



Ever ask why the mountain is covered in blood?

An Israeli General Peled, as cited from his son's lecture (free btw on youtube), have urged the Israeli gov't after the victory of the 1967 war, the war that he played a major part in... that General who love Israel, who fought and willing to die for its beliefs... that man advise his gov't to negotiate and establish a two state settlement - one for his Israel, one for the native Palestinian who had now been defeated and whose allies are no more and who will take what is given to them because they have no other choice...

That man's advise was ignored and Israel since, as Chomsky said, has ever since chose expansion over peace.

General Peled, then his son, then his daughter... they spend their life trying to help the Palestinians, trying to tell the world the injustices done to the Palestinians and how to peacefully help both people... 

These people, whose loyalty to Israel cannot be questioned, whose deeds cannot be questioned... are outraged at the injustices, at the greed and "realism" done by their beloved country... do they too not know the facts? Is a general commanding Israeli soldiers not know reality and morality?


----------



## So_Cynical (3 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> Here is a video from an important source of knowledge, YouTube.  It is even set to music. It relates to a lie the Western alliance, including Australia's Prime Minister, concocted in our name in order to invade another sovereign state.  It resulted in the deaths of over 7,000 military personnel.  It led to the deaths and permanent wounding of many many more who just wanted to get on with their lives, but had their doors kicked in routinely and much worse.  It has left a power vacuum which has now destabilized the country, region, and created blowback of enormous proportion.




Mission accomplished somewhat, The Iraq war/invasion was about the US and Allies taking the war on terror to a battlefield, a theatre of war where western civilians were not in harms way, any Muslim nutter who could afford a plane ticket went to Iraq to wage Al-Qa'ida's war, the Allies had em right where they wanted them.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> What do you know....the mission did not actually conclude per plan.
> 
> 1. Can you please tell me which part of the extensive response to Bellenuit in post #135 was written in jest, written in truth, intended to be accurate but putting words in his/her mouth, misconstruing the prior post...it would be helpful because I have to take it literally given all the tangents presented.
> 
> ...






First, Israel was not fighting in the Coalition of the Willing.
Only the US, UK, Aus, Poland send troops - so Israel never "fought" that war. 

It provide supports then, that's also fighting... since the list was never known, according the a free source wikipedia... we might never know if Israel was indeed in that coalition.

But if I were to believe Prof. Stephen Walt of Harvard in one of his updated lectures on the Israeli Lobby, he said that the US, with the exception of the cold war, has never been able to use Israel as an allied in its wars in the Middle East.

The main reason is not that Israel don't want to join, but that if they do, no other Arab state will join the coalition.

----

RY,

Apparently it's just personal attacks with you... I think I have given enough time to your nonsense.

Would you send your kids to fight our wars? I bet you would not.

Does enjoying the liberty and freedom, courtesy of "our" oppression by "our" soldiers while ignoring the suffering of another people and philosophically tells them it's reality, it's life and I can't say a thing because that would be hypocritical.

Does that make you a better person?
Let say I'm what you said I am - a hypocrite... What does it make you a person who apparently have no financial worries, who retired young, who were blessed with good fortune... what does it make you who have everything and sit there and shrug at the suffering of others with comments like "that's life, grow up".

I'd rather be a hypocrite any day over what you are.


Was I around when the genocide, the wars, the deaths etc. etc. since the beginning of time to before my birth to do anything about it?

So I ought to go tell Australia and all other bad countries to undo their genocide and give up or destroy all the advances and wealth because if I am OK with them enjoying it, if I dare enjoy it too, I am a hypocrite?

Does it ever occur to you that maybe, maybe, in the real world you're standing in, in a world where time cannot be turned back and actions undone... does it occur to you that to have learn of injustice committed, wrongs done... that maybe I am against such crimes because of the very fact that I am speaking up against it?

That even if I don't speak up against all crimes committed by all states on all people then and now, the fact that I speak up against one, lend my voice to one and calling for peace and justice... maybe that is better, more useful, more just.... hypocritical as it might appear... but more learned than sitting around and just say that's the way of the world, the might will be right, the might get mightier by destroying the weak... that's in our history, that's to be our future.

Who's the appeaser?


----------



## burglar (4 August 2014)

*The Appeaser!*


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, *denouncing war*, aren't you?
> 
> Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.
> 
> Israel can look after itself.




RY seems to be OK with any wars because he had apparently built a mansion on a mountain of blood and to denounce anymore settlements on another mountain of blood is hypocritical.

I'm a better friend to Israel than those who profess to be neutral or a friend.

Firstly, I do not wish ill on Israel.

Secondly, I am trying to be a just and fair person, giving voice to those whose rights are violated.
If I do that to one group of people, I surely will do that to another group of people - Israel or otherwise.

If I am like RY and look at crimes committed by one group, see the deaths of innocents and shrug and say that's how the world is... What would RY do if the role is reversed and Israelis are harmed? He'd shrugged too.


Thirdly, and though this was mentioned by prof Walt, I truly believe that a good friend doesn't tell me what I want to hear, a good and true friend tell me what I need to hear, tell me right from wrong, tell me when I've gone too far...

A good friend try to see my interest, look at my actions, and tell me if what i'm doing is to my interests.

A good friend who goes to Church will quote me Jesus Christ that "what does it gain a man to have the whole world but lose his soul".


A person is no friend of mine if he sees me kill people to "protect" myself when I obviously just beat them up because I want their land and resources... then tells me, yea, lots of a**holes in the world lie and delude themselves and commit genocides too, so why not you...


----------



## DeepState (4 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> WOW!
> 
> 1. Put some context into what I say, at least give me that.
> 
> ...




Wow, indeed. 

1. The context is the trail of stuff you have whacked up on this thread as a record which will survive as long as ASF will.  It's worthy of a documentary.  It will be used in medical schools.


2. Did I say you said this?  Put up the quote without additional propaganda please.  Have you at all noticed a pattern where a number of posters are wondering where you are quoting them from despite the fact that there is no record of them saying it?  Maybe it's just dumb luck. Maybe Mossad is doing it.  Plausible, I guess.


3. I do not.  I do know that my grand-uncle was murdered by the Japanese in front of my grand-father during the occupation.  He may not be Vietnamese and I don't want to claim any moral similarity, but I think this life counted about as much as one lost in Vietnam.  That was war. We must move forward despite the pain.


4. Let's compare what you said just then with what you said in the prior post to see if there are any differences, taking account that you could just have copied your original statement. 

Above: 

_" i would bet if you do a survey, *most* will think the Jews *have had it the worst during WW2*... *that the public would think they're the only one that suffered*."_

Prior post:

_" I bet that if you do a survey of people in the *US or Australia *as to who suffer during WW2, *the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it*."_

What BS are you peddling in your revision of history. Which one of these, in any case, is not completely vile? The fact that you can even try to repeat this insult to humanity again trying to make a point is stupendous.  It confirms that the first statement was not the result of a drunken stupor.  This is utterly unbelievable.  Despicable. You are morally blind. Being blind, you cannot look into the mirror and see the moral equivalent of Dorian Gray staring back.  

I am just itching to put this question to the Russians, who engaged in Total War.  They lost between 18-25 million lives in all.  You know, somewhere within a 7 million deaths range.  That's just deaths.  Yeah, the Jewish people and that's about it.  Maybe if you interviewed the Germans, who perpetrated the atrocity in a national sense, the fact that a mere 5 million military lives lost there will be ignored also. They did not suffer. Just the Jewish people and that's about it. Reality is completely distorted. Welcome to the Hotel California. Did one just fly over the hornet's nest?


5. Have you considered what the Chinese are essentially saying?  After a 'century of humiliation' of insult and death. Where more people died in the Rape of Nanjing than in the Holocaust. Where the British Empire occupied the country and plagued it with Opium and where it engaged in gunboat diplomacy to force trade on unequal terms and cede Hong Kong. Shall we engage them now in the name of your morality? They'd be pretty upset too, don't you think?  Have every right to strike back after a century of containment and violation. Don't you think?   China doesn't even have a democracy or western values.  The term China is Zhong Guo...Centre Country.  They think themselves to be the centre of the earth and rightfully so in just their name alone.  From Deng, there was talk of a "peaceful rise", "biding time", "hide our capabilities".  I don't think they are referring to baking at a soufflÃ© competition. 

They have nukes, a submarine fleet and an aircraft carrier that will eventually be capable of bringing fighter jets to within range of your house, or closer to the minerals and energy assets that Australia has and it so clearly needs/wants/must have. They have strategically significant energy ties with Russia which is annexing bits of the Ukraine and was involved in the downing of MH17 where Australian lives were taken.  They spy and sabotage American computers of a military and civilian nature. They are engaging Japan over a territorial dispute.  They are staking out claims in the South China Sea under military protection in areas which are contested by your homeland, Vietnam.  The growth in their military expenditure is the fastest in the world amongst great powers...and that's just the official numbers. 

Never again will the country be subjugated.  Never again will its citizens suffer at the hands of foreigners.  The world must accommodate China's rise.  The Dragon is awakening and it is pissed off. _...and on and on...  _They are therefore evil, have provided context for world annihilation, will draw pity from the wider non western world with whom they are developing a rival strategic and economic block, and they must be stopped at all cost.  

LuuTzu...you are go launch.  The missiles are ready. Push the moral button.  It's the red one.  Yes, you need to fight on two fronts.  Against Israel and against China.

Why don't you man up and take a butter knife to the front line and appease them to death. This will certainly affect you and your kids if your implications are to be taken as true.  Better still, blog them to death with your theories.  The blog is mightier than the butter knife.  Or do you expect someone else to do it in your name, with your written consent of course.  That makes it clean.  You can sleep more soundly knowing they haven't done it without your consent.  You can wake up covered in linen with a house that has heating and not on some frigate or tent where others will be in the service of your high morals and sensitivities.

I typed in "LuuTzu Israel" into Google.  Nothing came up.  I typed in "LuuTzu Israel" on YouTube.  There were heaps of things relating to kitty cats.  Apparently Israel hasn't actually done anything in your name.  YouTube is source of truth. I don't think Israel actually knows you exist.  Hence any effort to rope you in to their war effort is purely coincidental and unintentional, just like in the movies.



Stump up your money/labour.  We can arrange a neutral arbiter. We will have the bet drafted and verified by a major law firm and sealed.  Either question would be fine. The wording might be "With regards to WWII, who suffered?  1. The Jews and that's about it?  2. More than the Jews suffered. 3. From what sick mind does a question like this arise?" 

The wording will not be subject to mysterious re-drafting. I will pay for it all.  We put the matching assets into escrow.  We appoint NewsPoll to take that survey of Australia alone as that will be sufficient.  A sample of 5 should do it. Then we get an adjudication of whether just one respondent felt that someone else suffered in WW2 besides the Jewish population. That is, if so much as one respondent answers anything except 1., I own you.  You offered the bet.  I call. *Bring it*.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

RY,

What a clown.

Last I checked, my homeland is not Vietnam, but Australia.

Maybe I should do what you do and copy/paste and take things literally, word for word, out of context... But unlike some, I remember things I read... just maybe too optimistic that others are honest about what they clearly wrote.

Are you kidding me about the survey? What a fool you are man.
Let me school you between when to take things literally and when to take what's important in a sentence.

"I bet you RY is such an idiot that he will count one, two, three as.... what? You're the idiot."

The "I bet" mean: it probably is true that RY, when reading this sentence will say that last 3 words in his head first before the end of the sentence.

It doesn't mean I'm willing to literally bet my house on you reading the entire sentence, word for word, you idiot.


I'm not going to dignify your moronic mental retardation about the survey... Jesus, Mary and Joseph.


Oh, when I say Israel fighting in my name, I must literally mean it has my name and when its leadership say it's democratic etc etc and fighting for western values etc etc and "what would you do"... it then point to the book of names it meant by the word "you".

sheeshhh...

---------


And what's this about me thinking that China or Chinese being evil?

Oh, drawing similarities between a corrupt dictatorship in China with Israel... that's apt.

You're off topic... go back to your investment fluff, i'll get there soon and make a fool out of you on your own turf.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 August 2014)

> ....the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it..... disgusting.




The British who were bombed and rocketed by V1's, ?

The Germans in Dresden who were bombed by the British ?

The Russians who lost 35 million soldiers and 14 million civilians ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Human_losses_by_country


----------



## DeepState (4 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> 1. RY,
> 
> What a clown.
> 
> ...




1. That's funny. Honk honk.


2. Last time I looked, you identified yourself as Vietnamese.  
home•land: the country where someone was born or grew up.  Ones’ fathers land.
When was the last time you checked the meaning of homeland?

3. Provide one piece where I have misquoted one thing you have said and where context was not clear either through the entire text or within a text response. If valid, I will then supply example upon example of oblique responses to direct questions. Or you can just read the thread responses in total, simply observing the number of objections from other posters that make coherent arguments but accuse you of putting words their mouth or not acknowledging valid disagreement with flawed argument. If something systematic is going on, you don’t need to look very far and balance of probability does not lie in your favour.


4. You are quite seriously in no position to school me on any such matter, actually.  However, there are a large number of people who could school you in how vile your morality is in the two sentences you wrote.  Your bet can be literal or figurative.  I don’t care.  It is vile.  If you want to back these statements I am calling you to verify their truth given how incendiary they are.  Can you not see through the literal words and see the underlying intent?  Do you think I am unable to distinguish between posit and contingent claim?  And this indignant retort, coming from a person who sees fit to need to explain that the contents of YouTube contain more that videos of cats.


5. Can you afford this bet?  You aren't going to have anything left after the previous one. Literally.


6. You actually use this as a contrast to the question you posed? You are disgusting, vile, unappreciative and abhorrent.  If you dig yourself any deeper into this, you will meet Professor Otto Lidenbrock as he jouneys to the centre of the earth.  You really have no concept about what you say and how vile and offensive it actually is. This is strike three.  And this is such a central part to your proposition.


7. It indicates you are willing to take a bet. Confirmed by repeat.  What's left is the wager that we have yet to negotiate.  I have suggested one wager.  You are clearly baulking.  This question has sentiments which have been repeated several times on the thread and must be a position you hold to be true. Unless so much of the drivel you have outlined here is just some broken effort at communication at misrepresents what you actually mean.  "The cat sat on the mat"....no no no, you fool, I meant "War with Palestine is bad." Since we are into schooling, alternative phrases might be "I believe that...", "I suspect, were you to...", "It might be that..." there are many more.  However, given you presume to lecture me about writing and communication, I presume that you do not know the weight of your words or their import.  I’m not sure if that’s mitigation for the disgusting view point which has been raised.


8. How about you dignify yourself and the other posters whom you have interchanged with and conduct it for real to make your point?  The questions are there.  Their answers seem central to your position and general train of anti-Israeli sentiment.  You could just post it under a new thread:

 "With regards to WWII, who suffered? 1. The Jews and that's about it? 2. More than the Jews suffered. 3. From what sick mind does a question like this arise?" 

....,or I can?
Are you unable to fathom that the key point behind the bet is to subject your disgraceful perspective to public scrutiny?  But, if you wish to back it with more than embarrassment and being howled down much more vehemently than anything which has come before, I’d happy to formalise the bet as written.

9. Given the vehemence of your moral outrage, your name must have been in the engagement orders to the Israeli military in a deeply personal sense.  Nothing else makes sense.  You have said that it has been. If, in the conduct of war, strategies are undertaken to establish credibility, usher support and such within the world communitity, what do you expect them to do?  They would call the penguins as supporters in Antarctica too if that had strategic value.  So would/has Australia in the name of you and your values.  And you blow a vessel with that and stand on your high horse of indigation...which I'm going to enjoy riding around on.  Do you see the hyprocrisy in that position?  That is a key feature in your argument and I am shining a light on it.

Building credibility is standard warfare 101.  And you take it literally that they did this in the name of you, your family and country. You write as such and you express moral outrage at it.  That’s what the Google and YouTube bits are about.  You want to talk to me about distinguishing literal and other translation?  Do you, for the slightest micro-second think that those searches would yield anything?  Israel is not doing this in your name – get it?



luutzu said:


> Let me school you between when to take things literally and when to take what's important in a sentence




Your school was deregistered a while back...but they let you keep the conical hat that you wore so much.  However, you continue to lecture as if it wasn’t deregistered.  The above is the result.


10.  A lot of that goes around your threads.  Are you trying to invite yourself to the party?


11. That’s all you got from the comparison between China and Israel?  OK.


12. You are calling Off-Topic at all – never mind the content of what was written?  Is that some sort of joke? And on the topic, it relates your entrenched views about the role and methods of Israel in the Palestinian conflict.  If that is off topic, then please remove all your posts and I will be happy to match it with the removal of this paragraph.

Was that a threat? I think I got slapped by a wet lettuce. I look forward to ‘debating’ you on finance fluff.  I look forward to being told that Warren Buffett is wrong (again), same with Bogle, being told that conservative is 100% equities,….mate, if you wan’t to engage, I’m going to do you slowly.  Better still, I’ll just sit back and let you unravel yourself. The power of index management. Apparently, anything that’s good and important about investments has been written by Fisher and Graham., with wisdom snippets from members of your extended family.  There really is no value you bring beyond this.  We just upload two books and give your family logins. Save your time..


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The British who were bombed and rocketed by V1's, ?
> 
> The Germans in Dresden who were bombed by the British ?
> 
> ...





Yes, it can be disgusting to make it out as if your people were the only one, or the ones who suffered the most, during WW2.

It is also disgusting to use the deaths and murder of your people to defend your crimes against criticisms, to use it as justification for committing the same racist policies against the minorities in your own country, committing the same crimes against a people whose land your God somehow had given you.



I agree, it is disgusting.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> 1. That's funny. Honk honk.
> 
> 
> 2. Last time I looked, you identified yourself as Vietnamese.
> ...





oh ok, it's good to know that according to your dictionary, the country I am a citizen of and grow up in most of my life is not my homeland. 

What I've written is still up there, unedited... those interested can go back and look. 
I'm not going to waste more time than I have to defend some moronic accusation.

You might as well take one of my swear words and quote it and say all i do is swear.

Is this topic about China and Israel? Or Chinese policies? 


---

Regarding Investment:

And wow, shows how overpaid you were to be retiring so young when all you've done is make mediocrity and ass-covering a high art through your entire career.

You've retired, you still got the money from your "hard work".. time to reflect and laugh at the idiocy that was your career.

I've never heard anyone so proud to have spent their entire career practically saying - since I don't know anything and don't want to risk being wrong or bothered to think, I'd just spread everything everywhere and rise or fall with the rest of the market.. i'd get paid either way.

I bet you're the type that buy the whole store and give it to your wife as gifts on her birthday because you don't want to risk picking the wrong gift, one she doesn't like.

And oh, I don't literally mean I bet money that you buy the physical store too, or literally the entire store's inventory...

I think I'm beginning to see why you're on these forums... to justify the relevance of your spineless, brainless, high art of managing people's money.

And poor you, living through a war with a plane ticket to get to safety the moment it's getting too much. 
I wonder how many kids in Gaza have a bus ticket to get to a refugee camp the moment a warning "knock" hit their house before a booom that destroys it.


You got no heart, and obviously no brain... so thank you for retiring so young.


----------



## So_Cynical (4 August 2014)

burglar said:


> *The Appeaser!*
> 
> View attachment 58899




Chamberlain in 1935/6 is just totally irrelevant to the conflict in question, ok so perhaps not totally irrelevant due to the fact that Chamberlain and the western Europeans in general in the 1930's had had enough of war...a thousand years of war and they had finally had enough.

40 years of winning wars and the Israeli appetite for war is still very strong...Israel went i think about it is a nation of war, its all they have known, created by a terrorist war and expanded by continuing wars and conflict, 60 years of conflict must do something negative to the national physic :dunno: and then combine that with rampant right wing religious fanaticism.

Nothing good can come from this.


----------



## DeepState (4 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> 1. First, Israel was not fighting in the Coalition of the Willing.
> Only the US, UK, Aus, Poland send troops - so Israel never "fought" that war.
> 
> It provide supports then, that's also fighting... since the list was never known, according the a free source wikipedia... we might never know if Israel was indeed in that coalition.
> ...




1.	Israel was unofficial in its participation with the Coalition of the Willing.  It could not be officially named for a range of reasons, not least of which was the need to secure other Arab states into the Coalition for legitimacy.  Semantics aside, Patriot missile batteries were stored on Israeli soil together with other supplies relevant to the military action.  Israel also supplied advisors, interrogators and weapons systems. (source: Sourcewatch and Stanford)

2.	I do not know you.  I find your ideas outrageous and offensive.  So I engage.  You might find that whilst personal attacks do happen, they are uncommon and relate to a very small number of posters whose views are disputed or unsupported by the great majority of thoughtful posters or otherwise determine that my work is “rubbish” or “fluff” but would not last 30 seconds in a definitive situation.  For the great majority, it’s all very nice. 

3.	Of course not.  Although my father was a Captain before moving back to civilian life and my Uncle a Colonel during his career in the armed forces, I do not want my children to follow in those footsteps.  As so common, this is to be beside the point.  This exchange has nothing to do with sending our children to war at all.



4.	It is not hypocritical to say you enjoy freedoms at the expense of others.  That is power.  It is hypocritical to say that it’s all fine to oppress others if it benefits you, but to call another nation or group as a moral outrage when they engage in similar behaviour although the specific circumstances must naturally differ in detail.  Your disgust at being roped in as part of a wider justification is entirely naÃ¯ve and forgets that the protections offered to you call upon the same strategies, although the details will be different necessarily.

Your verbosity in condemning Israel as an oppressor and highlighting the suffering of the oppressed  (you don’t care whether they are Palestinian or not) over and over shows that you did not see this hypocrisy as you berated others.  I found this offensive.

It appears that you are willing to countenance the hypocrisy.  That is a big move forward and a main plank of my argument.  No-one claims the moral ground here.  You original position was very hypocritical.

Now to progress, which is moving beyond the scope of my intent.


5.	It makes you/me a more internally consistent and less hypocritical person.  I cannot tell if that makes you/me better.  

6.	You make a lot of assumptions.  You have no idea what I do or how I have examined this.  It is a privilege to be able to give back in the way that I do.  Oh, by the way, I care about this stuff enough to obtain post-graduate qualifications in Political Science.  I studied military strategy including nuclear weapons strategy (HD).  I also studied Conflict Resolution (HD) amongst other things like theories of International Relations and schools of thought like Neo-Realism.  We did not watch one YouTube video.  We examined the world and we read the original thoughts.  I paid $35k for this and dedicated a stack of time to it so I can make better choices.  And then, I come across you. Who thinks I sit on a banana lounge all day sipping daiquiris. 



7.	Good, let’s keep it that way.  If you were me, it might imply that I would need to be you.  That’s a horrible thought.

8.	Did the world’s history only begin when you were born?  Were the enmities that lead to conflict 50 years later reset when you emerged?

9.	If you do this, and regard Australia as no better or worse than others engaging in conflict, then you are not a hypocrite to my mind.  You are being consistent in your position.

10.	I am also against such crimes.  I did not say that it was wrong to say so in general. I said it was hypocritical to throw bile at others who are engaging in the activities of your protectors.  That is the crux of the hypocrisy I wanted/needed to bring to light.  No-one gets to claim the moral high ground.

11.	It might surprise you to learn that realism and neo-realism does not condemn us to an ever worsening pattern of destruction and warfare.  It just says nations will compete to improve their position.  The degree of inter-state violence is actually decreasing, as if to make this point clear.  The efforts to prevent war and provide release mechanisms are growing each year.

12.	You remain so unless you have changed your position on Bali and Indonesia.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

*RY's investment approach as applied to "managing" Israel's Gaza "Protective Edge":*

RY-Consulting: You want no more rockets into Israel?
General: Yes sir. No rockets.
RY-Consulting: Rockets came from Gaza, let's bomb it.
General:  Good idea sir, but where do we bomb?
RY-Consulting: Everywhere, of course. That will minimise the risk of us ever missing anything.

General: Reasonable, fair... But wouldn't that also kill a lot of people?

RY, log in to a bunch of databases, come up with tables, data and charts then...

RY-Consulting: According to my Bloomberg, no rockets has ever been fired from a desert. No rockets can be fired from a people without food, shelter or water... You want to minimise risk of rocket fires? Make Gaza a desert and make its people homeless and hungry... anything less is too risky and I won't feel good about taking your money for that kind of advice.

---

I read, from Buffett's own words, and in his interviews... that he don't write a book on investment because everything he could possibly write about has been written by Graham.

I also read that Buffett said he's 85% Graham, 15% Fisher... that's 100% to me.

So either he's lying or doesn't know what he's doing from just reading those two books. I'd take the word of a man who came from relatively nothing and made billions for himself and countless others into millionaires....

I'd take his words over a bunch of literate, well read idiots with databases and fancy maths who does nothing for their pay but aim head in the direction of the herd, regarless of direction.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> 1.	Israel was unofficial in its participation with the Coalition of the Willing.  It could not be officially named for a range of reasons, not least of which was the need to secure other Arab states into the Coalition for legitimacy.  Semantics aside, Patriot missile batteries were stored on Israeli soil together with other supplies relevant to the military action.  Israel also supplied advisors, interrogators and weapons systems. (source: Sourcewatch and Stanford)
> 
> 2.	I do not know you.  I find your ideas outrageous and offensive.  So I engage.  You might find that whilst personal attacks do happen, they are uncommon and relate to a very small number of posters whose views are disputed or unsupported by the great majority of thoughtful posters or otherwise determine that my work is “rubbish” or “fluff” but would not last 30 seconds in a definitive situation.  For the great majority, it’s all very nice.
> 
> ...





There are two main arguments I put forth:

1. Israel has no moral ground, no legal or legitimate reason for its war on the Palestinians;

2. If Israel is doing it for its national interests - and all wars are based on deception etc. I'm fine with that - that's the way of the world. Just keep me out of this self-interest, amoral world, realist's approach to war. For to claim self-interest, where is my self interest in this war on Gaza? None...

Yea, cry me a river about my disgusting behaviour... 

Some 1600 people have died, some 6000 injured, at least half the population made homeless... and all this from a made up pretext of self defense, from using the murder of 3 youths to pick a fight to break up potential peace talks...

That and what I say horrifies you? It outraged you?

Fair and balance right there. A good sense of good and evil.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

Here's the words from a man who probably doesn't get his information second hand or from youtube; who devote most of his life examining just about every war and conflicts and human rights issues on the planet...

I am pretty sure you can't call him a hypocrite either... 

See what he have to say about this conflict:


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> 6.	You make a lot of assumptions.  You have no idea what I do or how I have examined this.  It is a privilege to be able to give back in the way that I do.  Oh, by the way, I care about this stuff enough to obtain post-graduate qualifications in Political Science.  I studied military strategy including nuclear weapons strategy (HD).  I also studied Conflict Resolution (HD) amongst other things like theories of International Relations and schools of thought like Neo-Realism.  We did not watch one YouTube video.  We examined the world and we read the original thoughts.  I paid $35k for this and dedicated a stack of time to it so I can make better choices.  And then, I come across you. Who thinks I sit on a banana lounge all day sipping daiquiris.




Might want to get a refund.

I probably watch more lectures on this issue than all the lectures your 35K degree get you.
Does the free lectures, even though given by professors at Harvard and "proper" universities... does free lectures on youtube make it less qualified?

I don't know why a world-renown thinker, and yes, a lecturer on courses like ones you paid... someone like Chomsky said the solution to this Israeli-Palestinian conflict is quite simple: Israel just agree to peace talks and take 80% of historic Palestine and give the Palestinians the other 20% - as the UN, then slowly Palestinian leaderships then and now, has all agreed is legal and "fair".

That while he don't know what the solution is to conflicts like Libya etc., this one is quite simple. The same sentiments are expressed by just about every other scholars on the subject.

But of course it's not that simple... I'm just a kid without a degree so what do i know. Oh wait, I simply summarise what the guys that probably wrote the books that the person who gave you a HD recommend as your readings... these guys just aren't sophisticated enough.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Chamberlain in 1935/6 is just totally irrelevant to the conflict in question, ok so perhaps not totally irrelevant due to the fact that Chamberlain and the western Europeans in general in the 1930's had had enough of war...a thousand years of war and they had finally had enough.
> 
> 40 years of winning wars and the Israeli appetite for war is still very strong...Israel went i think about it is a nation of war, its all they have known, created by a terrorist war and expanded by continuing wars and conflict, 60 years of conflict must do something negative to the national physic :dunno: and then combine that with rampant right wing religious fanaticism.
> 
> Nothing good can come from this.




Like most people, I never really question what does it mean to want to be a "Jewish State". I just take it at face value that Israel is democratic, has elections, many writers, directors, scholars, thinkers etc. etc. that I admire are of Jewish ancestry so its claim to be a liberal democratic country sharing values like those of the US, the UK, Australia... that it's just like Australia - except instead of a majority Christian/Anglo population, Israel's is Jewish.

When i saw a lecture where Mearsheimer said that Israel doesn't share American values, Chomsky said Israel is a racist state without even flinching... I youtube a few on the street interviews with Jewish Israelis, look up a few news on some laws and protests in Israel...

I am not saying that this is conclusive or representative, but if we ask what does it mean to make Israel a Jewish state... the answer is the same principles and laws that were made to keep Australia White; American White and Colored apart...

Worst is that since there are only some 5 million Jewish Israelis and some 1 million or so Arab Israelis.. to keep Israel Jewish will have to mean policies that discriminate immigration into Israel by non Jewish people, policies to bring more Jews in and keep the non Jewish Arabs inside Israel less powerful and less influential - and the obvious way you do that is make policies that give them menial jobs, little money...

So theoretically, the consequences of a Jewish state divides the country from within, and its policies to those "outside" its borders is Gaza and the West Bank.

Can Israel keep doing what it has been doing? It is betting that it could.


----------



## burglar (4 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> ... Who thinks I sit on a banana lounge all day sipping daiquiris ...




If I may be so rude ... (I love interjecting)

What are you sipping while you sit on a banana lounge all day?


----------



## DeepState (4 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Here's the words from a man who probably doesn't get his information second hand or from youtube; who devote most of his life examining just about every war and conflicts and human rights issues on the planet...
> 
> I am pretty sure you can't call him a hypocrite either...
> 
> See what he have to say about this conflict:





Thanks for this. 

Chomsky is a towering intellect in linguistics and global politics.  His words were very measured and, to my understanding, an accurate portrayal of the truth as he perceives it.

In this clip, he says:

1. Israel is extending its territory not due to security reasons but due to its ability to project power.

2. President Bush received advice from his security apparatus that invading Iraq would increase the risk of terrorism against the US.  He invaded anyway, not due to concern for US security, but for power projection and seizure of assets.


Chomsky compares the two and is highlighting their commonality with respect to the use of power projection under the cover of security concerns to expand their domain.  He is not being hypocritical.  He equates one with the other without elevating one over the other in any way.  

In contrast, your position has clearly been to assert that Israel's position has morally debased you for using propaganda in an effort to secure legitimacy whilst waging war.  At the same time, you regard efforts which Chomsky himself argues is a power grab conducted by another nations including Australia as entirely valid if it improves the lot of yourself and children.  That position is nothing if not hypocritical.

If this is not apparent to you, it is likely apparent to many others.  You are welcome to your perspective and to defend it.  In my opinion, the perspective is hypocritical.  You have provided yet more basis for this position.

In case it is not clear, my position is that war is disgusting and to be avoided if at all possible.  Nonetheless it occurs for all sorts of reasons.  It occurs for reasons that offends our sensitivities.  Accepting that realism or neo-realism has a perspective that somewhat describes world events does not even vaguely imply the broader set of beliefs that I have, nor describes the reasons I came to those conclusions.  It just happens to describe what is going on here.  No viewpoint in political science fits all circumstances all the time.  We are not condemned to fight large scale war.  Realism makes no such prediction.  Mearsheimer's own deliberations on nuclear strategy are a tribute to this argument.  Be very careful to infer that I am an appeaser.  I have made no such claim. Only you have.

I claim that there is no basis to regard the actions of the US and the coalition of the willing (including Australia) in relation to Iraq as less morally objectionable than that which Israel or, for that matter, Hamas is presently engaging in.  No-one gets to claim the moral high ground.

Although no-one gets to claim the moral high ground, the belief that most people would think that, in World War II, the only people that suffered were the Jews and that's about it is morally reprehensible and deserves complete condemnation.  I can only wonder if you are naÃ¯ve or despicable.  I hope it is the former.


----------



## DeepState (4 August 2014)

burglar said:


> If I may be so rude ... (I love interjecting)
> 
> What are you sipping while you sit on a banana lounge all day?




:topic

But since we're at it.

Well, I have a 50 meter indoor pool heated to tropical temperatures, complete with wave machine.  I entirely eschew banana lounges.  That's so white shoe brigade.  I have had delivered from Italy a cut down version of the yacht that Jordon Belfort had, the Nadine.  I sit on that and am partial to Margaritas ingested via the body shot method.

When are you coming around?

:alcohol:


----------



## burglar (4 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> ... When are you coming around?
> 
> :alcohol:




You see the two buddies drinking ...
(I am assuming for now, that we are buddies)
I would be the one on the right.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> Thanks for this.
> 
> Chomsky is a towering intellect in linguistics and global politics.  His words were very measured and, to my understanding, an accurate portrayal of the truth as he perceives it.
> 
> ...





Why are you beating a horse that was long dead before you even beat it?

Didn't I say something like... It is petty of me, the reason is a petty one... petty because what Israel is doing is not to my interest while claiming to do represent my value.

Your entire argument is about me being disgusting and hypocritical when I say that if this is how the war is... I might not have literally wrote that, but it is implied... that yea, I know how the world works, I'll come slowly to see that this is what power does... So in being a realistic person, if a war is to be fought in my name, that if Israel is to claim to the world that my values, as represented in my Country's "western values"... at least make that war of benefit to me and my family, to me and my fellow Australians... so that we could share in the spoil of wars and not just one day, and i dearly hope that day never come, to possibly pay for it.

No free lunch.

That makes me hypocritical? Well, I did say it's petty... and in that post on China, I did quote Mearsheimer that China ought to be the US and practise better hypocrisies. 

To my knowledge, except for possibly China, no other country whose people suffered in WW2 constantly use that tragedy as a blank cheque, as a veil, to do as the Israeli is doing.

China uses their "century of humiliation", but not to this extend. I mean, if China were on the same scale as Israel, it would bomb and occupy the entirety of East and South East Asia and claim every critics as Emperor Hirohito (or whatever his name was);


Anyway, I know you have a thing for me. Flattered as I am, this is not about me or you...

Your opinion of Chomsky is too childish.

You seem to think that since he said the US also commit expansionist policies, that we shouldn't be surprise Israel is also doing it... that he say that so he must be indifferent; that he's worldly and see that that's how the world is so suck it up.

I have 3 meals a day brought about by a nation that also committed genocide to make room; I live in a peace brought about by wars... and so unless I denounce and give up all these, it is hypocritical for me to criticise any nation that IS committing these genocide and fighting this war for its interest.

First, as i've said, if that makes me a hypocrite, I am glad to be one;

Second, you seriously think what Israel is doing is to its national interests? Forget about morality as I've said before... national interest, for Israel?

Just about all South American states have withdrawn their diplomats from Israel; No Arabs, the majority of its neighbours, like Israel for the wars its been waging; The Israeli people, its youth, are getting more and more racist and arrogant towards their fellow ethnic, 2nd-, 3rd-, fourth-, fifth-class minorities... its leadership practice systematic theft of other people's property and livelihood... what examples does that set for a nation and its people?

How does it benefit a country that spent most of its blood and treasures on indoctrinating its young with hate, and arm its defense force to occupy and oppress?


Maybe you ought to be grateful to hypocrites like me for being allowed into Australia. I'm assuming here your family weren't of the First Fleet.... it's hypocrites like me, though more intelligent and do rather than just talk like me... it's people like us who stand atop that bloodied mountain and say no, no more racist White Australia policies that benefits me more than people of coloured; no more genocide and displacements of the Aborigines; that we are sorry for the crimes committed by our leaders, by our forefathers but let's talk of peace, let's compromise and give each of us and our children a chance.


----------



## Julia (4 August 2014)

burglar said:


> What are you sipping while you sit on a banana lounge all day?



I believe RY specified a daiquiri.  A delicious cocktail with white rum, sugar syrup, egg white and lemon juice shaken over ice.


----------



## DeepState (4 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> 1. Why are you beating a horse that was long dead before you even beat it?
> 
> 
> 2. Didn't I say something like... It is petty of me, the reason is a petty one... petty because what Israel is doing is not to my interest while claiming to do represent my value.
> ...





1.	Did you put the obituary up somewhere?

2.	Yes you did.



luutzu said:


> Post 144
> The other reason I don't like what Israel is doing is petty but I just don't like people killing anyone, let alone civilians and children in their thousands, year in year out... I don't like people who are racist, who systematically cleanse another ethnic group, who continuously occupy their land and destroy what livelihood people managed to rake out from whatever land or material they could managed to gathered over the years since displacement... who brutalise and subjugate fellow human beings... then, then have to nerve to tell me that if i were in their shoes, I would do the same.
> 
> And i'm upset, petty as it is, that all these time I was made a sucker and didn't know it.




…which is hardly rescinding the hypocritical statements:



luutzu said:


> Post #135
> I am never excusing that terrorism or violence... and in many ways, I'm happy for myself and my children that the Western powers have to prop up dictators and control to world... because as far as i'm concern, that's good for me and my children.. .and I hope the US and the Western powers continue to dominate and China and Russia and all other powers remain weak lest my kids have to go to war...
> 
> …
> ...




It simply adds to the list of reasons to condemn Israel’s actions.  You are reinventing history, albeit I have a great deal of sympathy and alignment with what you say in Post 144.


3.	You have completely missed my entire argument which is as wide as the side of a barn, which is why this continues.  Your ability to read something and understand something else is a special talent whose results are scattered thoughout. Luu, that is not my argument at all.  You only seem to think it is.

By the way, being realistic and all, how is Israel actually supposed to engage in a war that it can categorically benefit you and your family? Further, in a world of power which you are becoming more aware of what other context do you think Israel is supposed to conjour in order to provide moral cover for its activities?  This is war.  Whatever it takes.

4.	We finally agree.  First time in a while.  Take a breather. … Now, let’s continue.


5.	Nations know that they are hyprocritical.  Propaganda is a lot about trying to distract away from that.  Making mention that nations are hypocritical does not mean your position is not hypocritical.


6.	Maybe. And so? Countries will create context.  MH17 was a regrettable context, for example.  What is available to each will be different.


7.	And your point would be?


8.	No, Luu.  I’m not really having a go at you.  Really I’m not. This issue is bigger than you. But you are what I have in front of me right now.  And the issue is…..yadda yadda


9.	 Really?



luutzu said:


> You seem to think that since he said the US also commit expansionist policies, that we shouldn't be surprise Israel is also doing it... that he say that so he must be indifferent; that he's worldly and see that that's how the world is so suck it up.




Firstly, when did you become a psychic? Your calmly worded post regarding my professional efforts suggest that you believe that you have attained some pretty amazing talents in that regard.  The detail was quite something in the absence of facts.

You are dead wrong about how I shop for my wife.  We no longer buy whole stores.  By the time she gets to wear the 200th dress, the thing is out of fashion.  Dead wrong, Luu.

Secondly, Chomsky mentioned Israel’s expansionist policies which pre-date Iraq 2.  In fact they pre-date Iraq 1.  So I didn’t think that, because Chomski made no statement that allows me to represent things in the way you suggest.  Each of your assertions do not follow anything I have said/written. They do not represent my beliefs despite your psychic prowess.  Perhaps you might like to click the YouTube link again and actually watch it and summarise it….accurately. Particularly if you plan on fabricating material to misconstrue what I actually said.  WMD.

Pretty childish error there Luu.  Are you going to have yet another hissy fit?


10.	Finally.  I can rest. Mission is actually accomplished.  Thankyou for the admission of hypocrisy in your perspective. Was it so hard to see this a bit earlier to save this extensive exchange? In this land, you are free to be a hypocrite.  It’s good that you are happy.  Happy is good.  Hey dude, guess what, I’m a hypocrite too!  Just not on this particular issue.  How’s this one…I am appalled by the culling of livestock who I think are sentient beings…but yet I eat meat. Hypocrite. Front and centre.


11.	It’s good to dialog without BS.  Thanks for the question.  I think that Israel and its population have endured a great deal of persecution over a long time.  I will not compare this to the suffering of others.  I just say that, as a people, they share a common bond and a knowledge that very nasty existential events took place that were designed to destroy them morally and physically.  In that position, I as one of these people, would live in the shadow of fear and would arm myself to the teeth to protect everyone I would care for.  This creates a great deal of nationalism and a mistrust of outsiders.

I believe that Israel has been expansionist in its objectives…because it can.  In that regard, it serves its national interests.  It also survived existential wars.  They can’t lose a war and survive.  So everything they do must be seen in this light.


We can always expect blowback from aggressive posture and action.  Instruments of war are often too blunt.  Increasingly radicalisation of parts of the Muslim population are being matched.  This is plainly dangerous.

Though solutions exist to this dilemma, like the two-state arrangement you have previously outlined, great hurdles remain.  Politics is difficult.  There are many steps from cup to lip.  Right now, the cup pretty much seems to still be sitting on the kitchen bench.  There are efforts to broker peace.  In blood feuds, the history shows that they go on until one side is pretty much completely annihilated.

This is a serious flash point.  This problem just has to be managed along until, sometime, somehow, a peace can be found.  The conditions are not present today.  I am not optimistic for a solution for many years to come.  Meanwhile, seriously deplorable things are going on.


12.	I don’t see what you are saying as hypocritical.  It is a way of getting objectives that are favourable.  Just like war is sometimes used in that manner, compromise and positive action to more progressive policies are too.  War is hardly the only way to secure advancement in the national interest or advance humanity.  Making peace and mutual forgiveness between sparring partners often serves to further both their interests.  Opening trade is too.  And so on.  Much that goes on to the benefit of humanity requires large scale cooperation across national, ethnic and religious identities.  

As I posted earlier, “War is simply the continuation of policy by other means….” …von Clauswitz.

Mostly, policy of the type you describe does not require war.  This doesn’t make it inconsistent with achievement by other means.


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2014)

RY,

Maybe you and others are too wise and too worldly to not take the Israeli-Palestinian crisis with any shock, horror or sadness... maybe one day I too will be that wise, I just hope I will not ever be so wise.

I've answered all your nonsense, you can pick holes and keep doing whatever it is you're doing.. I'm a big enough to know what I've said and where I stand, also big enough to know time shouldn't be wasted on petty nonsense like your pathetic indignation about what you think I said yet wax philosophical lyrics on seeing the horror of war and oppression.


----------



## DeepState (5 August 2014)

Julia said:


> I believe RY specified a daiquiri.  A delicious cocktail with white rum, sugar syrup, egg white and lemon juice shaken over ice.




Thank you Julia.  I stand corrected and unreservedly apologise for this error in translation.  I read one thing and wrote down another.  Silly me.  I regret any inconvenience this may have caused and will happily shout a round in recompense.  More if you are good looking and where I think I am half a chance.


----------



## burglar (5 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> ...  And then, I come across you (LuuTzu). Who (LuuTzu) thinks I sit on a banana lounge all day sipping daiquiris ...




Funny on so many levels! :
Obvious that RY is either 
1. not sitting on a banana lounge, 
2. or not sitting all day, 
3. or not sipping daiquiris. 






So I wished for clarification.



DeepState said:


> :topic
> 
> But since we're at it.
> 
> ...






Julia said:


> I believe RY specified a daiquiri.  A delicious cocktail with white rum, sugar syrup, egg white and lemon juice shaken over ice.




So despite what LuuTzu supposedly thinks, RY claims to be partial to Margaritas. A cocktail consisting of tequila, triple sec (such as Cointreau) and lime or lemon juice, often served with salt on the rim of the glass.






I hope the explanation kills the humour and we can all get back to the Kindergarten brawl that was "Israel - Palestine"


----------



## Julia (5 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> Thank you Julia.  I stand corrected and unreservedly apologise for this error in translation.  I read one thing and wrote down another.  Silly me.  I regret any inconvenience this may have caused and will happily shout a round in recompense.  More if you are good looking and where I think I am half a chance.



Well, someone, not sure which of us, has had too many of the aforementioned cocktails, resulting in confusion, it seems.
I was just (while happily reminiscing about the pleasure of the daiquiri) filling burglar in on the recipe.
Subsequently, I think, you appeared to switch your preference to the margarita.
Whatever, undoubtedly entirely uninteresting to most readers.


----------



## Julia (5 August 2014)

Back more or less on topic, I'm presently reading a stunningly excellent, if terrifying book "I am Pilgrim" by Terry Hayes.  Yes, it's fiction, but 700 pages of what could very feasibly happen if a muslim fanatic wished to destroy America, via synthesized smallpox.

The book traverses many conflicts, including that of Israel-Palestine.   An excerpt seemed pertinent when I came to it today:

The protagonist meets an old Jew sweeping a square.  The old man's parents and five siblings were Holocaust victims.  The old man  himself was a survivor of three death camps, including Auschwitz.  The protagonist asked him what he had learned from his experience.  He said he'd learned that when millions of people, a whole political system, countless numbers of citizens who believed in a God, said they were going to kill you - *just listen to them.*


----------



## DeepState (5 August 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Mission accomplished somewhat, The Iraq war/invasion was about the US and Allies taking the war on terror to a battlefield, a theatre of war where western civilians were not in harms way, any Muslim nutter who could afford a plane ticket went to Iraq to wage Al-Qa'ida's war, the Allies had em right where they wanted them.




Hi

I was caught up in another discussion.  

Yes, I think the highly intensive part of the operation caused a great deal of damage to the fighting capability in the Iraqi military and anti-West sympathisers.  But, like taking penicillin with an incomplete eradication of the pathogen, it seemed to have grown back somewhat and become more resistant.  Using the lens you have proposed (which I think is entirely reasonable by the way):

1. How do you react to the fact that Iraq is possibly more unstable now than before?  In terms of threat to the US, at least according to Chomsky's recount per the video pinned to this thread, it likely increased the likelihood of terror activities targeted at the US (and possibly its allies by extension - not said by Chomsky).

2. Do you believe the radicalisation and creation of even more heinous militants than Al-Qaeda in the form of ISIS was partly the result of the invasion?

3. What score out of 10 would you give the Iraq 2 effort, to the point the US left its soil, only to return to advise on it later...  


Here's my response, so it is clear that this is just an open question:

1. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant, but he was a strongman who managed to coerce some form of stability.  It couldn't last forever, but there are other ways to change regimes.  This effort at regime change does not appear to be particularly successful and has led to a more fluid internal conflict than before in the East although the Kurds have managed to defend an autonomous region.

The US went in.  It's allies also engaged in a show of solidarity with a vital strategic partner despite a real lack of moral conviction or evidence of threat from Iraq.  They got the spoils.  It would be interesting for someone better informed to post up the energy and construction contracts secured by Halliburton, KBR and the like as a result of the post-war reconstruction and commercialisation of the oil fields.


2. Al Qaeda was already so vicious that moderates turned against them eventually.  ISIS was so bad that Al Qaeda complained that they gave Al Qaeda a bad name.  I had not heard of ISIS until the latest incursion.  Also, war brings much collateral damage.  Being collaterally damaged does not lesson one's pain.  I suspect there would be increased hatred of the West as a result of Iraq II and increased radicalisation.  Others will have much more definitive data.


3. It depends.

a. Seizure of assets and development of economic theft: 9/10
b. Securing stability of the region as liberators of the Iraqi people: 4/10
c. Disposing of WMD: Cannot be determined, there were no WMD to dispose of, so no marks can be awarded as none were on offer.

Equally weighting, for lack of a better concept, 6.5/10. C. 

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4362496/buch-yale-c-student


I am responding to your post with acknowledgment that this is only tangentially relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and, perhaps, purposeful for comparisons, justifications, scenarios and lessons learned only.  I believe that these situations may be substituted to some degree for such purposes.


----------



## noco (5 August 2014)

I read with interest this link explaining how Hamas has engineered it's fight against Israel.

The tunnel system set up by Hamas is enormous and it is no wonder Israel has a battle on it's hands and the reason they have  sent in ground troops to detect and destroy the Hamas elaborate underground net work.

Israel is really up against a Vietcong type of warfare with booby traps located in the tunnels. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/subterranean-threats/story-fnb64oi6-1227013330281


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## bellenuit (5 August 2014)

Julia said:


> He said he'd learned that when millions of people, a whole political system, countless numbers of citizens who believed in a God, said they were going to kill you - *just listen to them.*




How very true. There are too many apologists for Islamic terrorism who come up with every which excuse as to why their actions (not particularly Hamas) are motivated as a response to some Western humiliation of Muslims in the past and ignore the very words that those terrorists say are their motivation.

Before I post an article that illustrates many people's refusal to just listen to what is being said by the Islamic terrorists, again I want to reiterate that I think that though Israel is in an impossible situation, their recent actions have been shocking and over the top. In fact, watching some of what is done in the last week, I would add that I think they are intent on destroying all Gazian infrastructure to make the place unliveable. 

*What Would Hamas Do If It Could Do Whatever It Wanted?*

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...o-whatever-it-wanted/375545/?single_page=true

_People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen._


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## luutzu (5 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Back more or less on topic, I'm presently reading a stunningly excellent, if terrifying book "I am Pilgrim" by Terry Hayes.  Yes, it's fiction, but 700 pages of what could very feasibly happen if a muslim fanatic wished to destroy America, via synthesized smallpox.
> 
> The book traverses many conflicts, including that of Israel-Palestine.   An excerpt seemed pertinent when I came to it today:
> 
> The protagonist meets an old Jew sweeping a square.  The old man's parents and five siblings were Holocaust victims.  The old man  himself was a survivor of three death camps, including Auschwitz.  The protagonist asked him what he had learned from his experience.  He said he'd learned that when millions of people, a whole political system, countless numbers of citizens who believed in a God, said they were going to kill you - *just listen to them.*




So what if a leadership said: We have to make sure the Palestinians know they will get nothing from us, that they either leave or live like dogs.

Or the stated aim of a nation is to be a "Jewish State". Then its laws and conducts show what that mean to non_Jewish citizens.

The above are two facts, not fiction... and it is being carried out, not talk or imagined.

But I guess we read what we want to hear, fictional or otherwise.


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## SirRumpole (5 August 2014)

> Back more or less on topic, I'm presently reading a stunningly excellent, if terrifying book "I am Pilgrim" by Terry Hayes. Yes, it's fiction, but 700 pages of what could very feasibly happen if a muslim fanatic wished to destroy America, via synthesized smallpox.




Smallpox is so virulent, how does our terrorist think he can stop the spread of the disease to his own country ?


----------



## luutzu (5 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> How very true. There are too many apologists for Islamic terrorism who come up with every which excuse as to why their actions (not particularly Hamas) are motivated as a response to some Western humiliation of Muslims in the past and ignore the very words that those terrorists say are their motivation.
> 
> Before I post an article that illustrates many people's refusal to just listen to what is being said by the Islamic terrorists, again I want to reiterate that I think that though Israel is in an impossible situation, their recent actions have been shocking and over the top. In fact, watching some of what is done in the last week, I would add that I think they are intent on destroying all Gazian infrastructure to make the place unliveable.
> 
> ...




Yes, it's either you're with us or against us, right?

By the same logic, the people who fought for civil rights in the US just hate White people; those who argue for rights of women hates men; those who defend forests and natural wonders hates humans and want no civilisation.

Yes, I've heard that if only Hamas and the foolish Gazans wanted peace, they could have turned Gaza into a Singapore or a Hong Kong... instead they chose to dig tunnels and want to pick fights with the 4th most powerful military in the world.

---
The US took Texas, New Mexico, California (and probably a couple more I don't know)... I'm sure the Mexicans who lost their land then hated the US and wish it will, probably fought one or two wars to try regain their land... But a border is put up, these formerly states of Mexico are now part of the USA... and life goes on.

But for some reason, according to Israeli and its apologists, the Palestinians, like all Arabs, just want war, just dig tunnels of terror so they can kill citizens of one of history's deadliest military. 

Give me a break.

How people keep buying stories that facts, reality, history, common sense just can't comprehend is a little beyond me. 

I guess you'll have to be ones who think that you love life more, that you love your children more, that your religion preaches peace while theirs of hate... that's how it's done.


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## luutzu (5 August 2014)

noco said:


> I read with interest this link explaining how Hamas has engineered it's fight against Israel.
> 
> The tunnel system set up by Hamas is enormous and it is no wonder Israel has a battle on it's hands and the reason they have  sent in ground troops to detect and destroy the Hamas elaborate underground net work.
> 
> ...




Tunnels are defensive measures. No army (including terrorists) dig tunnels to attack, they dig so they can hide and not be sitting ducks.

If you look at the bombings by Israel, most are on buildings, presumably because there are tunnels there... how many tunnels did they bomb at the borders or towards Israel?


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## luutzu (5 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Smallpox is so virulent, how does our terrorist think he can stop the spread of the disease to his own country ?




He's a terrorists, terrorists don't care about life. His sole purpose in life is to harm the West, kill Jews and go to his God.


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## noco (5 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> He's a terrorists, terrorists don't care about life. His sole purpose in life is to harm the West, kill Jews and go to his God.




Those terrorist and suicide bombers only think of those 12 beautiful virgins waiting for them in heaven.


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## bellenuit (5 August 2014)

noco said:


> Those terrorist and suicide bombers only think of those 12 beautiful virgins waiting for them in heaven.




You're short changing them Noco. It's 72.


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## Julia (5 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> How very true.



I'm glad that at least one person got it.  


> There are too many apologists for Islamic terrorism who come up with every which excuse as to why their actions (not particularly Hamas) are motivated as a response to some Western humiliation of Muslims in the past and ignore the very words that those terrorists say are their motivation.



Exactly.



luutzu said:


> So what if a leadership said: We have to make sure the Palestinians know they will get nothing from us, that they either leave or live like dogs.
> 
> Or the stated aim of a nation is to be a "Jewish State". Then its laws and conducts show what that mean to non_Jewish citizens.
> 
> The above are two facts, not fiction... and it is being carried out, not talk or imagined.



I'm not surprised that you fail to comprehend what the excerpt was saying.   
And you can rabbit on with your stuff as much as you like.  I've seen nothing in the last several pages which made much sense.



> But I guess we read what we want to hear, fictional or otherwise.



Oh, the irony!


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## luutzu (5 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> You're short changing them Noco. It's 72.




Here's something funny from George Carlin: Fighting for peace is like f'ing for virginity.

Here's something funnier for the peace makers to have done: According to Miko Peled, some 50 000 homes (Arabs of course) were demolished in Israel because there were some evidence that that area was the old kingdom of King David... Someone Peled said there is no historical evidence existed at all.

And here's a classic on the level of terrorists killing innocents to be with God and get 72 virgins:

From Chomsky, the American Christian Zionists greatly support Israel and its total claim to Palestine. Their reason is that from their Bible, once the Jewish people reclaim all Palestine, then the ground is set for the second coming of Christ. 

All of humanity will die of course, Armageddon and all, maybe only 160 000 Jewish will be saved since they will turn to Christ in time... but all of humanity will die... so they support Zionist Israel and is a good friend to the Jewish people.



Funny right? Rolling on the floor, laugh out loud kinda jokes..


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## Julia (5 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Smallpox is so virulent, how does our terrorist think he can stop the spread of the disease to his own country ?



Rumpole:  a few points:
1.  I'm less than halfway through the 700 page book.

2.  The terrorist has devised a complex scheme to introduce the virus to America.  To demonstrate the effectiveness of the synthesized compound even against people vaccinated against smallpox, he has had no compunction in testing it on innocent civilians he has captured.

3.  His hatred of America is so virulent that it's all that matters to him.   
Consider the willing sacrifice Hamas is presently making of the Palestinian people in order to further their own political ends.  It's a similar principle.

I think you'd find it worth reading the book.  I'm an avid reader and this has captured my attention above anything else I've read in the last several years, even including the wonderful "The Narrow Road to the Deep North" by Richard Flanagan which is  up for so many awards.


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## luutzu (5 August 2014)

Julia said:


> I'm glad that at least one person got it.
> Exactly.
> 
> I'm not surprised that you fail to comprehend what the excerpt was saying.
> ...




The age of innocence could last a life time for some people.

I bet you couldn't make out what RY was saying at all before you wrote he made sense.

Just to show that money could could really buy you friends. Though with some friends it could buy, I'd rather be homeless.

Anyway, too much time wasted... time to try to make some money so when I speak out of both side of my mouth, it'll words of wisdom.


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## noco (5 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> You're short changing them Noco. It's 72.




I'd be happy with 12....don't think I could handle 72 of them.


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## burglar (6 August 2014)

Seriously, I must apologise.

I was making light in this thread!
Then I saw graphic images from Gaza.

I fear that the Israelis will not stop until Gaza City is levelled.


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## luutzu (6 August 2014)

Mike Carlton got fired, "resigned".

An Australian columnist, a representative in one of the fourth pillar of a democracy, got fired for being "rude" to readers... A sad day for Australian democracy.

"To find out who controls you, find out who you cannot criticise" - Voltaire.


I now realise Google didn't overpaid for YouTube at all.

The conflict to Rap music.


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## noco (6 August 2014)

The way Hamas are setting up their rocket launchers among buildings and just 100 metres from the UN building and in retaliation Israel is trying to knock them out resulting in the loss of civilian life....Hamas knows this is receiving sympathy around the world without any care for the loss of their citizens in Gaza.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1407313047246


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## Macquack (6 August 2014)

noco said:


> The way Hamas are setting up their rocket launchers among buildings and just 100 metres from the UN building and in retaliation Israel is trying to knock them out resulting in the loss of civilian life....Hamas knows this is receiving sympathy around the world without any care for the loss of their citizens in Gaza.




Noco's standard link to Andrew Bolt. Can't you think for yourself?

Hamas are not after sympathy, they want their land back. What is wrong with that principle???

When Israel blows the f*ck out of Gaza, the jews just say that is "standard" warfare, so don't condemn the Palestinians for using what ever means they have to fight back.


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## noco (6 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Noco's standard link to Andrew Bolt. Can't you think for yourself?
> 
> Hamas are not after sympathy, they want their land back. What is wrong with that principle???
> 
> When Israel blows the f*ck out of Gaza, the jews just say that is "standard" warfare, so don't condemn the Palestinians for using what ever means they have to fight back.




Good on you Macquack......typical comment by you when you don't like someone else's opinion....attack the poster with intent to discredit....How low can you go?

The Arabs and the Palestinians are still licking their wounds from the 6 day war 1967 when they attacked Israel and  were well and truly slaughtered.......If they had wiped out the Jews in 1967 and occupied Israel, would the aggressors then given back the land to Israel?...So now the Palestinians are paying the price for their stupidity.

The Israelis occupied the Golan heights, the West Bank and the Gaza strip for strategic purposes to prevent further aggression by the Arabs....Not sure why they gave the Palestinians back the Gaza strip but of course in modern warfare those occupied territories really do not prevent aggression.   

We will have to agree to disagree.


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## noco (6 August 2014)

More evidence of the evil Hamas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IbhL9RqVn0


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## So_Cynical (7 August 2014)

noco said:


> Good on you Macquack......typical comment by you when you don't like someone else's opinion....attack the poster with intent to discredit....How low can you go?
> 
> The Arabs and the Palestinians are still licking their wounds from the 6 day war 1967 when they attacked Israel and  were well and truly slaughtered.......If they had wiped out the Jews in 1967 and occupied Israel, would the aggressors then given back the land to Israel?...*So now the Palestinians are paying the price for their stupidity.*
> 
> *The Israelis occupied the Golan heights, the West Bank and the Gaza strip for strategic purposes to prevent further aggression by the Arabs*....Not sure why they gave the Palestinians back the Gaza strip but of course in modern warfare those occupied territories really do not prevent aggression.




Get a clue noco, no one is doing anything about anything that happened in 1967, the world has moved on, considering that the 1967 population of gaza was around 300K and now stands at around 1.7 million, the Israelis need to deal with their Palestinian citizens in a realistic fashion...or get real with a 2 state solution as negotiated in 1967.


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## burglar (7 August 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Get a clue noco, no one is doing anything about anything that happened in 1967, the world has moved on, considering that the 1967 population of gaza was around 300K and now stands at around 1.7 million, the Israelis need to deal with their Palestinian citizens in a realistic fashion...or get real with a 2 state solution as negotiated in 1967.




It seems that there is insufficient room for two states.

Israel has a solution to that problem!

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Gaza+War+Images+Graphic+2014


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## Macquack (7 August 2014)

noco said:


> Good on you Macquack......typical comment by you when you don't like someone else's opinion....attack the poster with intent to discredit....*How low can you go*?




Not as low as the Israelis. They have set the new benchmark.


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## DB008 (7 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Not as low as the Israelis. They have set the new benchmark.




And the Palestinians haven't? Setting up bomb HQ's under hospitals/schools? Talk about taking a cheap shot. What about the tunnels they have constructed? Reports of up to 40% of GDP has so far been spent on this. What a joke Hammas is.


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## noco (7 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Not as low as the Israelis. They have set the new benchmark.





Macquack. are you a Muslim or do you have  middle east origin?...if you don't want to tell me, that is fine....I am just curious.

You seem to be so bigoted and a hater of the Jews......You seem to believe Hamas are not a terrorist organization and can do no wrong.....Hamas have already stated, they want to destroy Israel come hell or high water......It looks like they have selected hell for the Gaza people with all disregard for the their safety.......They do not care how many Gaza people get killed so long as they get world publicity and sympathy and they have been very successful at it until now.


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## Calliope (7 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Not as low as the Israelis. They have set the new benchmark.




I'm sure Herr Hitler would have agreed with the Hamas supporter's benchmark. He said;



> Anti-Semitism based purely on emotion will find its ultimate expression in pogroms … but anti-Semitism based on reason must lead to the organised, legal campaign and removal of Jewish privileges. *Its ultimate, unshakeable goal must be the elimination of the Jews*.




 See more at: http://alphahistory.com/holocaust/nazi-anti-semitism/#sthash.XLQTPoTV.dpuf


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## Ryan1 (9 August 2014)

G’day all, first post and after reading many well thought out and written views, I feel I want to share my personal view and experience living in Israel for a number of years. I remember occasionally sirens (incoming missiles) blaring and we just ran into the nearest bunker, I was quite anxious because I personally have never experienced anything like that coming from Aus, after the 3 or 4th time I shrugged it off to the point I wouldn’t even put my beer down. I use to traverse back and forth into Gaza and Israel, the Palestinians work in Israel and seem quite happy and I saw many genuine friends who got along and speaking with many people from both sides they wanted the same thing peace but both opposed the extremist groups. Hamas’ sole objective is political power and they will intentionally use Palestinian women and children for their own global gain and exposure. The extreme Jews or orthodox Jews who believe they are god’s children will not accept anything other than waiting for the Messiah, they don’t recognise the state of Israel, they don’t pay any taxes etc. So until these 2 selfish minorities accept what is the best for all people in that region I highly doubt there will be peace in the Middle East. Just my personal view


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

> So until these 2 selfish minorities accept what is the best for all people in that region I highly doubt there will be peace in the Middle East. Just my personal view




Sums it up pretty well. Baddies fighting baddies. Neither will listen to anyone else, so they should just slug it out themselves.


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## noco (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Sums it up pretty well. Baddies fighting baddies. Neither will listen to anyone else, so they should just slug it out themselves.




I know this all about Israel and Palestine and the stupid loss of life, but what about Syria, Iraq and Ukraine?


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

noco said:


> I know this all about Israel and Palestine and the stupid loss of life, but what about Syria, Iraq and Ukraine?




Indeed, it's all about people fighting for beliefs, freedom, power, land, revenge or whatever else they see fit to fight about.

 I'm just grateful I live in a reasonably civilised country and can only despair of the barbarity that still exists in other parts of the world.


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## drsmith (9 August 2014)

In relation to the latest resumption of hostilities after the recent 72-hour truce, a simple question.

Who fired first ?


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> In relation to the latest resumption of hostilities after the recent 72-hour truce, a simple question.
> 
> Who fired first ?




Would depend on to whom you addressed the question.


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## noco (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed, it's all about people fighting for beliefs, freedom, power, land, revenge or whatever else they see fit to fight about.
> 
> I'm just grateful I live in a reasonably civilised country and can only despair of the barbarity that still exists in other parts of the world.




They don't have a brain in their heads....they can't sit down and talk about it with the useless United Nations or the world court, they prefer to talk with the gun and where does it all get them in the end.

Wars achieve nothing except a tremendous loss of life.

I have said it before, with the amount of money that is spent on fighting wars, it could feed every  starving man, woman and child in every third world country....there is no need for poverty...there is plenty of food and land for every one....why in the hell do they have to fight about it?

It is all about religion.....one power trying to will their ideologies and beliefs on some one else.......just as the various faction of Islam fighting each other and all because one  has different beliefs to the other.

If they stayed off their knees 5 times a day and did some work for a change, the they might just get some where.


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## IFocus (9 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> In relation to the latest resumption of hostilities after the recent 72-hour truce, a simple question.
> 
> Who fired first ?




Hard to say but likely to be Hamas as wounded / dead kids on news networks around the world seems to be working for them, then again Israel believes its enemies respect strength so hard call I would think who would you believe?


----------



## noco (9 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> Hard to say but likely to be Hamas as wounded / dead kids on news networks around the world seems to be working for them, then again Israel believes its enemies respect strength so hard call I would think who would you believe?




Maybe Israel should turn the other cheek....concentrate on knocking out the Hamas rockets with their defense shield for a week or two and then perhaps Israel might just start to get some world sympathy and turn the tide against Hamas.


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

noco said:


> Maybe Israel should turn the other cheek....concentrate on knocking out the Hamas rockets with their defense shield for a week or two and then perhaps Israel might just start to get some world sympathy and turn the tide against Hamas.




I suggest a line of tanks on the Israel-Gaza border. While they are not firing they are not hurting anyone, but the intent is clear...


----------



## Calliope (9 August 2014)

The Silence of the Left.



> To his credit, Barack Obama has now intervened to help the hapless Iraqis besieged on the mountain, with food drops and air strikes. *But where, through all the horrors of Syria, Iraq and Boko Haram’s murderous rampage in Nigeria in the name of Islam, has there been anything like the outrage that has been seen around the world over Israel’s action against Hamas in Gaza? The vituperation of those like the former Fairfax Media columnist Mike Carlton has, as always, been directed at the perceived iniquities of Israel, never those of Hamas or the egregious acts of inhumanity being committed across the Arab world. *In Pakistan, a leading Islamic state, an army offensive against terrorists in its tribal districts began in mid-June. More than 1500 civilians have been killed, many of them women and children. Yet there is no international uproar.
> 
> *Demonstrators regularly take to our streets to protest against Israel’s actions in Gaza, yet fall silent on atrocities committed in Iraq, even when our own citizens take part. The threat posed by the 150 homegrown jihadists fighting in Iraq and Syria, like Khaled Sharrouf and Mohamed Elomar, is appallingly real. But it is Jewish schoolchildren who are disgracefully targeted for racial vilification and Nazi-style abuse on a bus in Sydney*.



(my bolds)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...risy-over-israel/story-e6frg71x-1227018484598


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## noco (9 August 2014)

And the Israelis are the bad boys once again.

Perhaps the Israelis should be bombing the source of supply of these rockets where ever that may be. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rotests-continue/story-fnihsmjt-1227018864728


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## noco (10 August 2014)

Why is there so much emphasis placed on the hatred of the Jews who are in reality defending themselves from Hamas rocket attacks?

Why isn't there more discussion going on with killings and beheading of Muslims by Muslims in Syria, Liberia, Iraq and Pakistan?

Why are we starting to see Muslim demonstrations in Australia? 

Muslims are being encouraged by their Mufti to burn Jewish business, destroy their cars and their homes and kill every Jew in Australia until the last one and we have the likes of Sarah Hanson-Young and Lean Rhianna, who I might add are Fabians (communists), addressing these protests.....These two are encouraging the Muslim uprising here in Australia to create hatred with intent to divide our community....Why aren't the so called moderate Muslims protesting against their radical brotherhood's behavior? 

 Why are these people hell bent on World domination and creating so much torture and misery?

Ask yourself , do we really need this kind of behavior here in Australia?


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...he-western-world/story-fni0ffxg-1227007637712


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## noco (11 August 2014)

Listen to these kids showing hatred for infidels....They are brain washed....they will become very dangerous once they become teenagers 

This is what is being taught in Muslim schools in Australia 5 times per day.

Do we really want this happening in  Australia?......No we don't but it will and something must be done now before it is too late 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...lds-severed-head/story-fnii5s41-1227019897582


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## SirRumpole (11 August 2014)

noco said:


> This is what is being taught in Muslim schools in Australia 5 times per day.
> 
> Do we really want this happening in  Australia?......No we don't but it will and something must be done now before it is too late




How do you know what is being taught in Muslim schools ? Have you ever been in one ?

And what is the "something" that you suggest should be done ?

Ban Muslim schools ?

Give some actual suggestions instead of emotive statements and propaganda.


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## Julia (11 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> How do you know what is being taught in Muslim schools ? Have you ever been in one ?
> 
> And what is the "something" that you suggest should be done ?
> 
> ...



In his post noco says:  







> Why isn't there more discussion going on with killings and beheading of Muslims by Muslims in Syria, Liberia, Iraq and Pakistan?




It's a very fair point to raise imo.  I've also raised it before and, as I recall, your response was that that was just 'crazies killing crazies'.   So muslims killing muslims is OK?   Muslims are also beheading Christians in Iraq.

Separately, Calliope has posted the sickening photo of a 7 year old son of an Australian born Muslim holding up a severed head .  He's so small he has to use two hands to hold the head.  His father looks on with pride, saying apparently "that's my boy".

If we  have nurtured something like this right here in Australia, I don't think it's just being emotive to be concerned.


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## SirRumpole (11 August 2014)

Julia said:


> In his post noco says:
> 
> It's a very fair point to raise imo.  I've also raised it before and, as I recall, your response was that that was just 'crazies killing crazies'.   So muslims killing muslims is OK?   Muslims are also beheading Christians in Iraq.
> 
> ...




Anyone killing anyone else for religious reasons is unacceptable, but as you once said Julia, joining the "isn't that awful" club doesn't really achieve anything. The lunatics in Syria and Iraq won't listen to us, so there isn't much point trying to point out their evil ways to them. 

And as I recall from my original comment on "crazies vs crazies" I said that was how the media perceived the issue, which is why they didn't cover Syria as much as Gaza. 

Everyone should be concerned about Islamic and other violence, but I was asking noco and others for realistic suggestions of what we can do about the problem, if one exists in this country.

So to get the ball rolling I'll put up a few and see what people think

* Require independent observers in Muslim schools to ensure extremist doctrines are not being taught, or defund these schools entirely

* Same in all Mosques

* Cut out immigration from countries where extremist religions are practised, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt...

* Declare all those who support jihad "enemies of the State" and build a gaol in the desert somewhere and send all EOTS there

Do people think these actions would be effective ? Would they be Constitutional ? Would they provoke civil unrest rather than prevent it ?

What other measures do people think should be taken ?


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## Macquack (11 August 2014)

noco said:


> Macquack. are you a Muslim or do you have  middle east origin?...if you don't want to tell me, that is fine....I am just curious.
> 
> You seem to be so bigoted and a hater of the Jews......You seem to believe Hamas are not a terrorist organization and can do no wrong.....Hamas have already stated, they want to destroy Israel come hell or high water......It looks like they have selected hell for the Gaza people with all disregard for the their safety.......They do not care how many Gaza people get killed so long as they get world publicity and sympathy and they have been very successful at it until now.




Sorry Noco for not getting back to you earlier, but I have been busy in training with the Jihadists on the Northern Beaches of Sydney. Actually in Tony Abbotts seat, but the usually super-volunteer won't have a bar of us?

Getting very lonely with very few new members.

But, I do have an undertaking from Tony, that there will be *no 'eruv' going up around our suburb*.


----------



## Julia (11 August 2014)

What  is 'eruv'?


----------



## DB008 (11 August 2014)

Julia said:


> What  is 'eruv'?




http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/residents-draw-line-over-jewish-boundary-20100702-zu5p.html


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## SirRumpole (13 August 2014)

> Jewish residents of St Ives have long tried to create an eruv around the suburb: a zone marked by overhead wire within which orthodox Jews are permitted to carry objects out of doors on their sabbath and holy days, which would otherwise be forbidden.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/residents-draw-line-over-jewish-boundary-20100702-zu5p.html#ixzz3AD9QILZg




This religious thing is getting more bizarre by the day.

 Why should 'normal' people have to be put out by these archaic beliefs ? Unfortunately it just shows how enslaved some people are by their religion. 

Maybe it's time politicians stood up against these inane rituals, but of course they want the Jewish/Christian/Muslim votes don't they ?


----------



## DB008 (13 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> This religious thing is getting more bizarre by the day.
> 
> Why should 'normal' people have to be put out by these archaic beliefs ? Unfortunately it just shows how enslaved some people are by their religion.
> 
> Maybe it's time politicians stood up against these inane rituals, but of course they want the Jewish/Christian/Muslim votes don't they ?




Similar to how all meat that can be purchased at Woolworths, Coles, IGA and even McDonald's, Hungry Jacks, KFC (etc etc etc) is Halal for ~2% of the population, but the other 98% (or those who eat meat) have to abid by it.


----------



## Macquack (13 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Similar to how all meat that can be purchased at Woolworths, Coles, IGA and even McDonald's, Hungry Jacks, KFC (etc etc etc) is *Halal* for ~2% of the population, but the other 98% (or those who eat meat) have to abid by it.




Do all the listed outlets you mentioned comply with *'kosher'* requirements? I have never noticed that being advertised.


----------



## DB008 (13 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Do all the listed outlets you mentioned comply with *'kosher'* requirements? I have never noticed that being advertised.




I haven't look (at fast food restaurants for Kosher accreditation) to be honest.

I have seen a few 'this is Kosher' labels (normal shopping), but it is nowhere near as widespread as halal.


----------



## burglar (13 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> I haven't look (at fast food restaurants for Kosher accreditation) to be honest.
> 
> I have seen a few 'this is Kosher' labels (normal shopping), but it is nowhere near as widespread as halal.




But does it pass the taste test?


----------



## DB008 (13 August 2014)

burglar said:


> But does it pass the taste test?




Of course. No problems.

But that isn't the issue I was raising.


----------



## Julia (13 August 2014)

burglar said:


> But does it pass the taste test?



The issue for many of us is more the way in which the animal is killed.


----------



## McLovin (13 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> I haven't look (at fast food restaurants for Kosher accreditation) to be honest.
> 
> I have seen a few 'this is Kosher' labels (normal shopping), but it is nowhere near as widespread as halal.




AFAIK, Kosher cannot allow any stunning but Halal allows the animal to be stunned unconscious. This difference accounts for a lot of the price difference in Kosher meat over regular meat. Halal seems to be pretty much the same as how animals are processed anyway, I've never really understood the big deal.

Kosher Coca-Cola is the only thing to drink in America, it's made with real sugar not HFCS.


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2014)

noco said:


> Why is there so much emphasis placed on the hatred of the Jews who are in reality defending themselves from Hamas rocket attacks?
> 
> Why isn't there more discussion going on with killings and beheading of Muslims by Muslims in Syria, Liberia, Iraq and Pakistan?
> 
> ...




Noco,

Interview below might answer all your talking points. Well worth some of your time.
You know, if I am Jewish or love Israel, I'd be very upset once I know what's really going on.

Like seeing how an MIT professor who specialises in missiles and anti-ballistic weapons saying that the Iron Dome system is an expensive but worthless propaganda machine. You know, it doesn't shoot down any rockets, costs hundreds of millions, and scare the daylights out of Israeli citizens who think it's used to protect them from real missiles.

There's going to be a lot of heartache once the truth is known. Like believing your lover's stories and excuses to then later find out it's all bs... So it's understandable you're not brave enough to see another point of view - ones from recognised scholars like Chomsky, Finkelstein, Illan Pappe etc.

----

The kind of things you've been saying, it's good for bigots or uninformed and lazy people... you know, all Muslims are terrorists, Muslims harm Australia and other democracies... I've watched enough security and intelligence experts to know that they know what is the real danger to their country - it's Israel, not the terrorists.

*Example 1: *  A recent national security assessment report in the US show that Israel is high on the CIA [?] and US intelligence's concerns to US national security. Among the concerns are undue influence by a foreign power (Israel) upon US's politicians, leadership and mass influence through mainstream media. Then there's all that spying by Israel on US leadership, industries...

*Example 2:* Michael Scheuer [?] - former head of CIA's bin Laden unit - have written books and gone in front of US Congress saying that Israel is no longer an asset but has been a liability, to US national security. That if it's up to him, he'd dump Israel tomorrow. 

Among his, and others', reasoning is the continual bashing of Palestinians every few years. It's a major recruiting tool for other terrorists organisations in the ME and around the world. The main concern Scheuer has is the potential danger these constant killing of Palestinian civilians, the Israeli lobby, the military industrial complex etc. influence and US leaderships always supporting Israel, the danger this have on an increasingly large domestic Arab population in the US.

That is, he's most concern about some misguided Arab American, seeing the kind of things being done and the kind of support being given by US leadership... that is a real danger at home, and abroad is quite obvious.

*Example 3: *The financial costs of supporting Israel is getting too much.
As Chomsky said, the old joke is that Israel blow things up, the Palestinians rebuild, the Europeans pay for it.
I mean, how much more arms could be sold to Israel to bomb Gaza?

Then there's the increased costs of security measures - at the airports, border patrol, lost of privacy on the people through wiretaps... Most of these measures are to protect against terrorism, not against another state.

It would be cheaper for US and Western national interests to be run through dictators and tyrants they've set up in the ME - more expensive to always have to stand in front of the world media to support Israel every couple of years for their indiscriminate killing of Arabs. Statecraft are better done behind puppets, not out loud in front of cameras.

*Example 4: The Pivot to Asia. *
There's Russia, there's a rising China - each one of whom could do serious, deadly, damage to Western power and influence. 

Terrorists are a danger, no doubt... but in the grand scheme of things, they're like mosquitos, you don't want to be bitten by them, but your county will survive if attacked. So instead of spending billions each year, and countless hours of your intelligence assets on a relatively minor enemy, it's better to try to control and deal with two giants who have real nukes, have a real navy, army and air force and real intention for regional domination.

So by pivoting to Asia, US will want a relatively peaceful and calm Middle East - with good friends. That is much harder to do when you support some racist state who pick fights every year it seem. 

It's only last year that Israel's PM went to the UN, bring that picture of a cartoon bomb he thought will frighten the world. Then soon after, assassinate 3 of Iran's nuclear scientists in Iran. Now if the Iranians didn't control themselves and strike back, the US and the West will be forced to join Israel's "self defense". 

Do you think the US care that Israel is the only democracy in the ME? If it does, it wouldn't have overthrown the democratic Iranian gov't in the 50s and install the Shah, or prop up just about every kingdoms there is in the ME.

*Example: No one like a welfare recipient*

In the last 10 years, the US directly gave some $100 billion to Israel in foreign aids. There's more they gave in terms of tax deductions for Americans donating to certain projects in Israel etc... 

Whether the US is in economic trouble or not, no one like to give money away... and give it to then be talked down to like how Netanyahu spoke to Obama.

No people like their media, their leadership being blackmailed or harassed into singing praises and allegiance to a foreign power.


Add all these up and wait... you mean Israel is doing all these because it want all the Palestinians' land and resources; how is it that the 4th largest military in the world is somehow facing an existential threat from an Arab population without enough water or food to live on?



The time they are a changing [Springteen?]


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> AFAIK, Kosher cannot allow any stunning but Halal allows the animal to be stunned unconscious. This difference accounts for a lot of the price difference in Kosher meat over regular meat. Halal seems to be pretty much the same as how animals are processed anyway, I've never really understood the big deal.
> 
> Kosher Coca-Cola is the only thing to drink in America, it's made with real sugar not HFCS.




I saw a documentary where an abattoir worker said the only difference between Halal and normal butchering is that the animal have to face towards Mecca before the deed. That's why he said all the meat there are Halal because non Muslims doesn't really care what direction the animal was killed.


----------



## burglar (17 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I saw a documentary where an abattoir worker said the only difference between Halal and normal butchering is that the animal have to face towards Mecca before the deed. That's why he said all the meat there are Halal because non Muslims doesn't really care what direction the animal was killed.




Where have you been?
I was so worried about you!
I rang all the hospitals and the Police!

I sent out a search party.


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2014)

burglar said:


> Where have you been?
> I was so worried about you!
> I rang all the hospitals and the Police!
> 
> I sent out a search party.




Had a good chat with ASIO, haha


----------



## DB008 (18 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> The kind of things you've been saying, it's good for bigots or uninformed and lazy people... you know, all Muslims are terrorists, Muslims harm Australia and other democracies... I've watched enough security and intelligence experts to know that they know what is the real danger to their country - it's Israel, not the terrorists.






Whatever...

Bali bombings
Trade centre - twice and 9/11 (1993 + 2001)
Madrid bombings (2004)
Australian embassy - Jakarta (2004)
London bombings (2005)
Mumbai co-ordinated attacks (2008)
Hotan Attack in China (2011)
Boston bombings (2013)
Lee Rigby killed in broad daylight in London (2013)
Westgate Shopping Mall Attack - Kenya (2013)

All in the name of Allah. What a joke.


----------



## Calliope (18 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Whatever...
> 
> Bali bombings
> Trade centre - twice and 9/11 (1993 + 2001)
> ...




But DB, Islam is a religion of peace...it is the rest of us who Iuutzu calls the "uniformed and lazy" and of course the Jews, who won't submit to the rule of Allah, who are the unpeaceful bastards



> First, Islam is indeed a religion of peace, but in a crucially qualified sense. The root word of both “Islam” and “Muslim” is “s-l-m”, which is also the root for “salaam” or “peace” — but it most basically means “submission” (to God).
> 
> *So peace will be achieved by the rule of God extending over the world. It is the peace of a single ideology and a single regime, the peace of an empire united around one God and one faith. That global peace has not arisen yet, because the world is still divided into two realms: dar al-Islam, where people live in submission to God, and dar al-Harb, the abode of war, where non-Muslims do not yet submit to the beneficent reign of Allah. Once Islam triumphs over the whole world, humanity will have global peace.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...uires-submission/story-e6frg6zo-1227027369482


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## bellenuit (18 August 2014)

https://mobile.twitter.com/francosoup/status/474143001036718080/photo/1


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## darkhorse70 (18 August 2014)

No side is right and wrong. People have been born in a mess and they are just trying to get out alive. Its just a war. You cant say who's right and wrong. You've got a group of elitist Zionists on one side orchestrating a plan and on the other side you've got a group of people who are not willing to compromise and believe the Koran has no errors in it.

Human society is at fault here. Society is very ill. There is never going to be a solution. We are just going to do what we do best. Destroy what ever is in our way to make us feel safe. 

In reality the best thing for this planet is the total extinction of the human race. Animals deserve to live on this planet much more than us.


----------



## luutzu (18 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> But DB, Islam is a religion of peace...it is the rest of us who Iuutzu calls the "uniformed and lazy" and of course the Jews, who won't submit to the rule of Allah, who are the unpeaceful bastards
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...uires-submission/story-e6frg6zo-1227027369482




First, don't mistake Israel with Jewish people.

I came from Vietnam, from my studies I am very critical of the South Vietnamese gov't when it was in power. My grandparents and uncles all served in the South Vnese armies, I know people who served in it but I was, still is, critical of its policies. 

I was and is critical of the current Communist Gov't in Vietnam... does my critique of VNese gov't mean I hate the VNese people, or that I group all Vnese with its gov't?

So stop this nonsense about criticism of Israel = hating Jews. 



I heard Abbott talking about "Team Australia" today... I'm all for that. 

So for the Jewish Australian who go and join the IDF army fighting in Gaza, are they part of Team Australia too?
Last I know, all Australians have to sworn their allegiance to Australia and its head of State - the Queen of England... I don't think the Queen of England live in Tel Aviv and I'm pretty sure the Australian armed forces aren't the Israeli Defense Force.


----

You do realise that the Islam worship the same God, the exact same God, as Judaism and Christianity, right?

I don't know the details of any religion, but from the little that I do know, the only difference is Islam see Moses and Jesus Christ as also another Prophet of God (Allah), that Christ is a Prophet, not a son of God. Mohammed is also another Prophet of God.

I'm not qualified to discussed the good and bad religion, so maybe you can accuse me of being naive and the religion of Judaism and Christianity is a good religion while Islam preaches hate and terror - even though they believe in the same God... anyway, that's beside the point.

Though it's sad that any person could actually believe an entire race of people could worship evil while a different group (their group), worship the good and peaceful and righteous God... even though there's something evil about gay marriage, about abortion, even though entire populations has been wiped out in the name of that God of theirs too... but alright.

------

With security risks... you seriously think a bunch of terrorists could be anywhere as dangerous to US/Western powers as say Russia, India, China or Germany?

Forget about the moral and justice and legal question of what Israel is doing... look at the issue from a national interests perspective and you will see if supporting Israel is to the US and Western powers long term interests.

The Pivot to Asia should already be telling you what America is thinking. 
The closer ties the US is trying to reopen with Iran, against Israel's wishes, should already be telling you the game plan.

----

With regards to the moral high grounds... no one is supporting any act of war or act of terror, no matter who does it.

But to claim a moral high ground, like Israel has and continues to do... yea, there are some that will believe that. 

Just cause, just wars, fighting for democracy, fighting for survival, good guys and evil doers...

It's like a song I heard where the guy begs his lover to keep lying to him, to please make up things he could believe because the truth is just too painful, because the truth will mean he will have to let her go...

Bloody tragedy... unfortunately here, millions have to needlessly live under occupation, live under extreme poverty, and every now and then, being systematically slaughtered and made homeless... then be blamed for forcing a noble hand to do ignoble deeds on them.


----------



## luutzu (18 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> No side is right and wrong. People have been born in a mess and they are just trying to get out alive. Its just a war. You cant say who's right and wrong. You've got a group of elitist Zionists on one side orchestrating a plan and on the other side you've got a group of people who are not willing to compromise and believe the Koran has no errors in it.
> 
> Human society is at fault here. Society is very ill. There is never going to be a solution. We are just going to do what we do best. Destroy what ever is in our way to make us feel safe.
> 
> In reality the best thing for this planet is the total extinction of the human race. Animals deserve to live on this planet much more than us.




I agree with your sentiment, but there's a lot of misconception in what you say with regards to this particular conflict.

If you look at the US and Mexico. Using certain pretexts, the US pretty much stolen half of Mexico. What is now California, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas etc... those were Mexican territories and the US fought and took it. 

The smart thing the US does is it then draw up the borders, defend it, and Mexico - being a weaker state, just have to take it and move on with what's left of their land. Peace was made etc. etc.

Here, Israel thought otherwise.

Using the tragedy of the Holocaust it got 55% of Palestine... the Palestinians of course didn't like it, try to fight, couldn't fight and slowly accept their fate as all weak power must accept.

Israel, not being as clever as other powers, chose not to draw their borders as agreed by the UN... instead chose expansion.

It now controls some 80% of historic Palestine... in the West Bank, it took a further 60% of the most fertile and strategic land, divide and establish outposts and special roads for Israelis only on what's left... control all natural resources...  and expect to keep doing it for another 50 years or until the Palestinians just all die or something.

---

"There has never been an instant of a country benefiting from protracted warfare."
- Sun Tzu

I guess what does Sun Tzu know about modern warfare or politics.


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## luutzu (18 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> But DB, Islam is a religion of peace...it is the rest of us who Iuutzu calls the "uniformed and lazy" and of course the Jews, who won't submit to the rule of Allah, who are the unpeaceful bastards
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...uires-submission/story-e6frg6zo-1227027369482




While I can't say all religion because I don't know all religion, but it's pretty clear that when you believe that your God is the only God, it's only natural that all others are savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc. etc. to be brought under your one and only God... 

I think just about all religion believe their God is the only, is the one and only God... 

For some interests, look at the policies Israel is using within its own borders in order to keep Israel a Jewish State.
It's as racist as any country could get. I mean, laws that allow a neighbourhood to ban any resident that does not suit its religious character? Asking its citizens to swear allegiance to the Jewish faith...


----------



## luutzu (18 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Whatever...
> 
> Bali bombings
> Trade centre - twice and 9/11 (1993 + 2001)
> ...





As with any crimes, it's too simplistic to take some idiot's interpretation/justification for the act and believe they must be right - that Allah must have told them to do it.

You won't find me excusing terrorism, and I have never blame Israel for all terrorist activities against Australia/the Western allies... but I agree with real experts on the matter that unconditional support for Israel by the US (they're mostly Americans scholars and experts) is ONE of the major factors causing hatred and radical extremism against the US and western countries.

No one is saying that the US or the West ought to abandon Israel, or saying that Israel intentionally harm the West... But these experts are saying that the actions Israel takes to further its own interests, and the West's clear, vocal and unconditional support of those acts, it's these that's harming Western interests.

Take Australia... it probably costs us some dozens of billions since 2001 to beef up our anti-terrorism capabilities. 

While we might still spend the same amount regardless of our support for Israel, it might, maybe, be a little less reckless if our politicians were to be a bit more critical of Israel when its actions are just wrong? Maybe? Maybe it make us a couple of friends or entice a few more informants if they see that our leadership also respect their Arab Australians as equally as they respect and listen to the Jewish Australians.

I don't think it's harmful to our interests to be neutral regarding other countries' conflicts; might do our democracy some good to not support one group over another.


----------



## Calliope (18 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> but it's pretty clear that when you believe that your God is the only God, it's only natural that all others are savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc. etc. to be brought under your one and only God...




So  do you think "it's only natural" there can be no peace until all other "savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc." are subject to the rule of Allah, i.e. your god?


----------



## noco (18 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I saw a documentary where an abattoir worker said the only difference between Halal and normal butchering is that the animal have to face towards Mecca before the deed. That's why he said all the meat there are Halal because non Muslims doesn't really care what direction the animal was killed.




Does it make the meat taste better?


----------



## luutzu (18 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> So  do you think "it's only natural" there can be no peace until all other "savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc." are subject to the rule of Allah, i.e. your god?




I don't have any God. Don't believe in any either.

Was saying that it's only natural for any religion to believe in no other God but their own god/s. Doesn't make sense to worship your own god while at the same time believe another god could possibly exist also.

Some religion may believe and teach that, I don't know 'cause i'm not an expert on the subject. But from the Ten Commandment - there are no God before me, something like that?

Even Bush II says something like the Taliban hijacked a peaceful religion and turn it to hate or something along that line. 

Religion, like any other commodity, could be use and interpreted one way or another... It's pretty amazing though, to managed to persuade people who believe in the same God (God, Jehovah [?], Allah - all the one and the same God) that their God is better than their other God.

----

Anyway, Israel is an economically, militarily, powerful country with friends in high places. So it can do whatever it wanted to, and can say whatever it want to say... Just not sure doing what it is doing is to its long term interests.

I mean, if you listen to Max Blumenthal [see his lecture on 'Goliath - Life and Loathing in Greater Israel'), or listen to Norman Finkelstein, Miko Peppe, Noam Chomsky, Illan Pappe -- all, btw, are Jewish... and they're all saying how Israel has become an extremely racist state, a place Chomsky, who actually lived there in the 50s, wouldn't want to live at all now...

You can say that the Muslims are worst, and I don't know but say I agree with you... it still doesn't make Israel more noble or less wrong. 

Something is wrong when you have people going on the street, goes to a wedding and protest against a marriage between an Arab and a Jew living in Israel. Chanting "Death to Arabs" and "may your town burn"... It's wrong to then hear your politicians say it's part of free speech. I would have thought that that's hate speech but yea...

---

Anyway, Israel is on the path to self-destruction, it just doesn't realised it yet. 

And I'm just quoting actually intelligent and informed scholars who live and breathe the situation on that conclusion.

It's quite funny, in a sad way, watching this unfolding. 

You have Uncle Sam trying to stop an increasingly richer China from making trouble and pushing US influence out of the South and East China Seas, you try to stop China's current funding of an opposition to your new friends in Myanmar; Then there's some trouble with a potential uprising against a friendly gov't in Pakistan you helped into power; then the Ukraine and trade sanctions against a nuclear power that is Russia; then maybe a potential challenge from India; ISIS, that 14 trillion in debt etc. etc.

The last thing you need is to constantly funding, then stand up in front of a changing world proclaiming your love and total support for a state that just flatten entire neighbourhoods of already poor and desperate people. 

I don't think it help your strategic, financial or moral standing in the world to keep doing that. 

Then the consequences of dealing with all these international issues as well as issues at home. 

First from potential extremist Arab sympathisers, then the neutral segment of your society who wonder why is it that my representatives doesn't unanimously agree on anything like health care, roads and infrastructure investments in my area, funding my kids education and help my economy... yet they all, 100% of them, unanimously love Israel, give it $3 billions in foreign aid a year... and in return my president got lectured to by this Bibi guy.


"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice" saids Martin Luther King Jr. 

Israel has long ago lost that moral standing, it will soon lose the self-interested positions of the US and other powers.


----------



## luutzu (18 August 2014)

noco said:


> Does it make the meat taste better?




Depends on how it's cook.


----------



## darkhorse70 (18 August 2014)

I think halal is when u slit the throat and let the blood run dry. If done  correctly its painless and the meat taste better of course. But I rekon a bullet to the brain would still be less painfull haha. Poor animals.


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## burglar (19 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> ... *being systematically slaughtered and made homeless* ...




This is a very contentious post!
I don't mean to make light of your petty mistake! 

Being systematically slaughtered means you are dead and no longer need a home.


----------



## Julia (19 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> I think halal is when u slit the throat and let the blood run dry. If done  correctly its painless and the meat taste better of course. But I rekon a bullet to the brain would still be less painfull haha. Poor animals.



If someone could provide a link to assurance that bleeding out is painless, I'd like to see it.
Poor animals indeed.


----------



## luutzu (19 August 2014)

burglar said:


> This is a very contentious post!
> I don't mean to make light of your petty mistake!
> 
> Being systematically slaughtered means you are dead and no longer need a home.





If you look at the map of the West Bank below, what is left of Palestinian land is Area A and B - the coloured tan; the brown is Area C - completely controlled and settled by Israel.

It's obvious that it's divide and conquered.

No Palestinians are allowed to build or live in Area C, no Palestinians are allowed on the roads between those segregated areas they are allowed to live in; East Jerusalem is annexed.

Don't think you can get more systematic than that.


I saw a few interviews and lectures by Max Blumenthal - a Jewish American journalist living or at least was living in Israel when he made his observations... He said there's not even a question of two state in Israel politics and leadership - all parties agree that there will be refugee camps for the Palestinians, the question is how big or small to make it.

He said there's this accusations that the Palestinians just don't work hard, just neglect their farm... well, Israel controls and divert all water resources from land they don't want in the WB, took the most fertile land and resources. Hard to farm when you have no water or good land.

Blumenthal and Chomsky have pointed out how Israel systematically take land in the WB - they send in their bulldozer, smash the tin sheds or whatever houses on land they want - claiming that it's for security reasons, that it's a new military outpost, send in a few troops to station there then a few weeks later, set up infrastructures for new settlements.



Currently in Gaza, before the current incursion... an UNWRA spokesman was interviewed and said 95% of drinking water in Gaza are salted, I've seen news clips of Gazan saying no tap water could be use because it's foul, that his mum use it to wash her hands and her entire hands are infected after a while... and there's, some have said, a 1KM "safety" zone inside Gaza's border with Israel - that no Palestinian farmer could farm in those area or conduct any activity up to their own border.

1KM out of some 5 to 7 KM is a lot of land to waste in such a small area.

You have seen the damages done to Gaza the last month... some 300, 000 people are homeless, about half the population displaced. Some 10 000 Gazans sustained injuries - with no home, little power, little food, little medical care... those injured might not recovered quickly. I mean, an injury here could be losing limbs, not just a small gash or a sprained ankle. 


So OK, it might not be slaughter, but I don't think you need to build gas chambers to kill people. 
It is, however, systematic.

----

Israel and its supporters could point to Hamas' charter, point to how the US and Israel call it a terrorist organisation... and as I've said, I don't know Hamas and so can't defend or criticise it, but say it's as horrific and despicable as any terrorists are.... What happen to Arafat?

I saw a picture of Arafat shaking hands with Bill Clinton when his PLA/PLO [?] remove the call for Israel's destruction from its charter some decades ago.

There are countless peace talks since then with his PLO, and all the scholars I've heard from have said Israel rejected any and all Palestinians concessions. They wanted Arafat to give up everything, which he can't do... I mean, giving up 80% of your land is a bit too much for anyone, to give more?

And the last time I saw of him was his compound being bombed. i recently saw a senior Palestinian negotiator saying Arafat was poisoned by Plutonium something... the man said there's no evidence who did it, but before the poisoning, Israel's then PM and other senior leaders have called for Arafat's death and so he died... maybe just a coincidence.

----

So yea, Israel can do whatever it want to whoever it want to... Just it's a bit ugly to be so powerful, so abusive of that power... then claim righteousness, victimisation, self defense, peace loving defender of Jewish-only democracy blah blah... and any critique of Israel is unfair, is bigotry, is anti-semitism.


----------



## DB008 (20 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Whatever...
> 
> Bali bombings
> Trade centre - twice and 9/11 (1993 + 2001)
> ...




Lets add another one to that list...

*‘Evil straight from the pits of hell': American journalist James Foley reportedly beheaded by ISIS*



> Absolutely awful news. Media are reporting that journalist James Foley, captured in 2012, has been beheaded by ISIS.




http://twitchy.com/2014/08/19/evil-straight-from-the-pits-of-hell-american-journalist-james-foley-reportedly-beheaded-by-isis/


----------



## Macquack (20 August 2014)

This just reinforces in my mind that religion should have no place in the running of any country's government. This includes the USA/ Britain/ Australian "Christian" based governments.

And to get back on topic, the setting up of Israel as a "Jewish state" was a big mistake.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> This just reinforces in my mind that religion should have no place in the running of any country's government. This includes the USA/ Britain/ Australian "Christian" based governments.




Hard to do in a democracy.

Got any ideas on how you would enforce that ?


----------



## Macquack (20 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Hard to do in a democracy.
> 
> Got any ideas on how you would enforce that ?




Education, I suppose?

Take away the government funding to the religious based schools (Muslim, Catholic, Jewish.... ) and see if their places of worship will take up the slack? Not likely.


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Lets add another one to that list...
> 
> *‘Evil straight from the pits of hell': American journalist James Foley reportedly beheaded by ISIS*
> 
> ...




If I put up pictures of flattened buildings, a picture of an infant boy where the back half of his head is blown off and whose father is so delirious he weeps and dangle the boy's favourite toy, begging him to come back... would these make it "equal"?

No one is supporting any killing, from any side... but if it make you feel better to clump all Arabs, from all wars, from all countries together as terrorists or terrorist to be, then justify the killing of other innocent Arabs, use it to justify occupation and oppression of other Arabs... that's wrong, but OK, who am I to tell you right from wrong.

What the Israeli gov't is doing to the Palestinian people is wrong.
You can point to other act of murder, other genocides; you can point to the Holocaust, can point to Imperial British, Japanese, Chinese, Mongolian, Greek, Persian, Arabs... point to all those act of genocide throughout history to excuse the CURRENT action by Israel, they don't make it right.

And this is the 21st century... there are some sort of an educated population in some sort of democratic and civilised countries... So live in the dark ages and colonial era if you want.


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> This just reinforces in my mind that religion should have no place in the running of any country's government. This includes the USA/ Britain/ Australian "Christian" based governments.
> 
> And to get back on topic, the setting up of Israel as a "Jewish state" was a big mistake.




True.

In a seminar by Miko Peled, whose grandfather was actually one of the signatory to Israel's declaration of Independence and whose father was a general in Israel's senior command... Miko said that after Israel's victory of 1967, his father, who was one of the generals, told the leadership to make peace with the Palestinians.

The general even bring evidence of peace agreements from Palestinian leadership, he argued that since Israel is in a strong position, it could and should draw its borders, make peace with the people around it and keep to its Jewish national character. 

That with the millions of Arab Palestinians around, to do otherwise will mean occupation, mean devoting its people to perpetual armed services, mean resistance and reprisals... and in the end will mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

How true.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 August 2014)

Very true.
There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then and it appears too late now.


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> This just reinforces in my mind that religion should have no place in the running of any country's government. This includes the USA/ Britain/ Australian "Christian" based governments.
> 
> And to get back on topic, the setting up of Israel as a "Jewish state" was a big mistake.




From one of Chomsky's interviews, he said that there was this young Arab-Israeli couples in Israel wanting to buy a house - to start a family. They were refused and the case went all the way to Israel's High Court.

The Court said it's illegal to barred Israelis from buying property... Then soon after there are new laws to get around that. One of them is a law that allow neighbours to reject new neighbours whose race or religion dilute or whatever their current neighbourhood's racial/religious character.

So when you want to make any state a religious state, or a state based on skin colour, the result will have to be laws that discriminate, that favour and oppress one type of religion or colour over another.

---

From this seminar with Miko Peled, Max Blumenthal and Stephen Niven [?]... Niven described the trend in Israel towards "Judazification" of Palestine/Israel where the leadership are slowly moving away from using the Holocaust and 1948 as justification of Jewish Israel, but are using funny archaeology to indoctrinate its people, and fool the world I guess, that the Jewish people has always been in Palestine/Israel - dating back as far as 3,500 years. 

One example is the demolition of an Arab neighbourhood of some 50,000 Arabs on some evidence that it was on the old Kingdom of David.

So they did some digging, remove entire neighbourhood, send the Arabs to refugee camps or something... and now on that land is a theme park with trade mark slogans like  "This is where it all began". There are tour guides and "artifacts" to prove the Jews were here first.

The idea, he said, is to say that since the Jews were here first, anyone that come after are foreigners sitting on stolen Jewish land.

Niven said it's the trend now all over the West Bank... there's a rock or a pottery with Hebrew writing; there are searches and "archeologists" going through bibles and old testament and claim every sites as Jewish dating back some 3500 years.

---

There's a funny story Blumenthal told about Bibi Netanyahu. That during the 2009 war on Gaza, the Washington Post sent over a conservative journalist to Israel and he spoke with Bibi.

The report filed was glowing support for Israel and how Netanyahu took that journalist into his office, showed him a ring he bought in a pawn shop in Jerusalem dating back 3000 years. 

On that ring is written, in Hebrew, "Netanyahu".

So of course the Jewish people have been here for at least that long.

Blumenthal said Netanyahu's grandfather was from the Ukraine or something, his name wasn't Netanyahu, that name was adopted when the grandfather moved to Israel and it mean something like "I was here".


It's funny man. Too bad it's real and it's killing a lot of people


----------



## luutzu (21 August 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Very true.
> There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then and it appears too late now.





An interview with the Director of "the Gatekeepers" - an Oscar-nominated documentary interviewing all 6 living former head of Israel's Shin Bet - its internal security agency.

According to the Director, all six are asking that Israel stop its occupation and expansionist policies, agree to a two state solution... and they've been asking for this a long time ago.

Each time I watch an interview or a documentary, just about every expert on the subject agree that the one-state solution is long gone. New settlements, greater racist and right wing political movements, greater emphasis on the Biblical stories to justify God given land to the Jewish people... all these make it impossible to remove Jewish settlements or to share it with any other race or religion.

The Palestinian negotiator I saw recently said Abbas and the PA are willing to give up Palestine, what Chomsky said of other PA - that they're willing to give Israel the key. But Israel doesn't want the key, it doesn't want the Arabs - either in Israeli or in the WB or Gaza.

Citing 'demographic threat' against the "Jewish character" of Israel, there has been more and mora racist policies to keep Israel somewhere between 70% Jewish and 30% other. 

So no acceptance of refugees from anywhere, separate laws for Jewish majority and martial law for Arab-Israelis; harsh laws to expel Arab-Israeli prisoners; strategic fencing of security wall to push Arab-Israelis into the WB; and forget about ever accepting the Palestinians in Gaza and WB into a greater Israel with one person one vote kind of democracy.


But as Chomsky said, there is a hope that if enough American and world opinions change, the US might just call up Israel and tell them to move back to the 1967 border and that's that - two states that might eventually start to have trade and commerce and slowly might see they have more in common and unite to a democratic state of Israel for all people.

There's a good chance that that will happen sooner rather than later.

I mean, Obama recently signed a $100 billion foreign aid or military aid to Israel over a 10 year period. This generosity, Chomsky said, during one of America's worst recessions. 

I can imagine a lot of Americans not liking that very much if they take some interests and just youtube the topic.


----------



## bellenuit (23 August 2014)

It doesn't justify the over the top response, but this does show how many in the West are myopic in their views of this conflict, particularly in relation to the origins of this current confrontation and the assumption that Hamas are just acting in self defence.

*Hamas Admits To Kidnapping And Killing Israeli Teens*

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318367/hamas-finally-admits-to-kidnapping-and-killing-israeli-teens

_Saleh Arouri told a conference in Turkey on Wednesday that Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, carried out what he described as a "heroic operation" *with the broader goal of sparking a new Palestinian uprising*.
_


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## luutzu (25 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> It doesn't justify the over the top response, but this does show how many in the West are myopic in their views of this conflict, particularly in relation to the origins of this current confrontation and the assumption that Hamas are just acting in self defence.
> 
> *Hamas Admits To Kidnapping And Killing Israeli Teens*
> 
> ...




I'm very certain Hamas has done a lot of horrible, criminal acts... but come on, if you were Hamas, would you confess to this murder of innocent Israelis?

It's this act that Israel use to attack Gaza... then there's the terror tunnels, then demilitarize Hamas... but if the murder of these kids were used as the reason, why would you, as Hamas, go on international media and say yea we did it.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but to use the claim from one Hamas saying they did it, but ignoring other claims by Hamas that they didn't do it... that's cherry picking.

Israel's PM sent a tweet saying something like "Hamas is ISIS, ISIS is Hamas"... I'm waiting for another tweet saying "Hamas is Ebola, Ebola is Hamas".

When you lie too much, no one will believe you, even if you speak the truth. Israel is starting to have a lot of trouble convincing world opinions.

I mean, calling Hamas barbaric and evil for executing 18 suspected spies... and it is wrong and barbaric to have done that... but you can't expect people to agree with you and your moral high grounds when you blew up an entire building of some 40 apartments because you suspect there's a command centre in that building somewhere.


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## bellenuit (25 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> I'm very certain Hamas has done a lot of horrible, criminal acts... but come on, if you were Hamas, would you confess to this murder of innocent Israelis?



Confess. For heaven's sake, their charter calls for the killing of all Jews, not just those living in Israel. Did you read nothing of what was posted here by me and some others?



> Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but to use the claim from one Hamas saying they did it, but ignoring other claims by Hamas that they didn't do it... that's cherry picking.




_*Hamas political chief Khaled Mashaal* admitted that Hamas members killed three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June, but claimed the leadership of the organization was not made aware of the details of the abduction plan in advance, in an interview published by Yahoo News on Friday_

https://www.google.com.au/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=YKP6U8KbCu3C8gerjIF4&gws_rd=ssl#q=hamas+admits+killing


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## luutzu (25 August 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Confess. For heaven's sake, their charter calls for the killing of all Jews, not just those living in Israel. Did you read nothing of what was posted here by me and some others?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What happened to Arafat and the peace settlement when he and his PLO removed the same call from their Charter? Did Israel make peace and settle the issue?

That was in the early 1990s, some 20 years ago.

I've watch an interview with Chomsky and others who said Hamas has agreed to the existence of Israel.

But let say Hamas want to kill all Jews and wipe Israel off the map... can they do it?

I've answered this nonsense before.


To repeat... Hamas call for the death of all Jews and of Israel. That's evil and bad and terrible. But just to be fair, what about Israel and its PM and senior ministers?

Not only have just about all of Israel's Ministers, from below and up to the PM, from all parties for the past 50 years... not only have they say that there will never be a Palestinian state, that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, that it is a created name and created people, that either the Palestinians live like dogs or get out... not just say it, but have implement policies to make it happen.

As in, not just words, but deeds.

I'm certain 100% of all Palestinians dream of doing very nasty thing to Netanyahu... does it mean they can do it?

But it's OK though, it took a brave man like Miko Peled two years to struggle with the reality of Israel's policies... i don't think you're that brave or that interested to know.


----------



## noco (4 January 2015)

Gerard Henderson's recent visit this area sums up the situation for what it really is.

The reason for the retention of land on the West Bank and the Golan heights has been for security reasons...Without that land Israel becomes extremely vulnerable to attack.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...nexistent-nation/story-fnkqo7i5-1227172997348

The ABC goofed again.

*So it came as some surprise when ABC News Breakfast presenter Beverley O’Connor introduced a segment on the Middle East on Thursday with a reference to what she termed the “Israeli-Palestinian war”. O’Connor later referred to the “very costly and brutal conflict between Israel and Palestine that seems to have no end”.

Contrary to O’Connor’s editorialising, there is no war between Israel and Palestine. Nor has such an entity as Palestine ever existed. Jordan was in control of the area between Israel and the Jordan River between the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 and the 1967 war, which saw Israel occupy the area. In almost two decades Jordan did not establish a state of Palestine.*

*It is likely that the tension in the Middle East, as it affects Israel, will continue for some time. A long-term settlement seems a long way off. But this does not suggest a war between Israel and the Palestinians as depicted by O’Connor.*


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## Macquack (4 January 2015)

noco said:


> Gerard Henderson's recent visit this area sums up the situation for what it really is.
> 
> The reason for the *retention* of land on the West Bank and the Golan heights has been for security reasons...Without that land Israel becomes extremely vulnerable to attack.




Henderson needs a dictionary. 

At best the term is "annexation" and not recognised by anyone except the Israelis.

In layman's terms - "pure theft".


----------



## Calliope (4 January 2015)

Macquack said:


> Henderson needs a dictionary.
> 
> At best the term is "annexation" and not recognised by anyone except the Israelis.
> 
> In layman's terms - "pure theft".




What about "liberators" Macq? I am sure that you regard the incursions of the Islamic State into Syria and Iraq as a holy war of liberation to free the citizens from the dreaded infidels. Beheadings, torture, rape and kidnappings are mere incidentals, compared to the big picture.


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## luutzu (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> Gerard Henderson's recent visit this area sums up the situation for what it really is.
> 
> The reason for the retention of land on the West Bank and the Golan heights has been for security reasons...Without that land Israel becomes extremely vulnerable to attack.
> 
> ...




What war? It's colonisation.

Can a country really claim to be waging war against a stateless people with no army, no air force, no navy, no access to the outside world?

The only threat to Israel in the region, and threat because Israel can't just fly in and bomb it whenever they feel the itch, is Iran. 

The other potential threats were Iraq and Syria - for the same reason - and now they're, well, they're a bit busy shall we say... Then of course there's another threat, for reason that it might become rich and developed and so pose a threat to Israel by being able to afford a proper defense force... that's Lebanon. But I heard that Israel bombs Lebanon's infrastructures every now and then, whenever it's built or near completion.

Just in case you think Israel's actions is to protect itself against Arabs and Muslims hate Jews... Turkey and Saudi Arabia are very close allies with Israel, or at least with the US and through the US Israel.

Religion and religious war here are just a facade. It's all just geopolitical craziness with a convenient religious/cultural story to hide behind.

-------
I've heard that without the Arabs as enemies, Israel would tore itself apart.

This lady, a Jewish who grew up in Israel and is now a Canadian peace activist... said that Israel is the most backward, most segregated, most immobile and unequal country in the world. And that's among the Jewish Israelis, not the Arab Israelis.

She was saying how beside Tel Aviv and East Jerusalem, it's all mostly undeveloped and segregated... where you have the Jews from Arab living in an area separate from the Jews from Russia, the European Jews etc. etc... and they all do not like each other very much. That it's almost impossible to rise out of the class you're born in and most Jewish Israelis are poor and always scared.

Sad but what do you expect when you engage in continuous wars and occupation; teaching your kids about purity of blood and crazy stuff like the land was given to you by God and it's OK to bring the couch to sit and watch your heroes bomb and flatten entire neighbourhood.


Anyway, heard the Palestinians are trying a new form of terrorism - diplomatic terrorism where they threaten to sue Israel for future war crimes at the Hague. Dam savages ey?


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## Tisme (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> What war? It's colonisation.
> 
> Can a country really claim to be waging war against a stateless people with no army, no air force, no navy, no access to the outside world?
> 
> The only threat to Israel in the region, and threat because Israel can't just fly in and bomb it whenever they feel the itch, is Iran.




The real conflict is that the European nations and many others don't want a repeat of their economies being controlled by resident ghetto Jews with hidden agendas. Hitler thought he had the answer, a disgraceful abuse of power, that I'm fairly sure some Arabs would like to emulate. By providing a national boundary in a God forsaken piece of real estate the old world managed to offload the overflow not making it to New York and Washington DC.

By having the Jews away from where the real action is, the Europeans can get on hating each other along traditional lines.


----------



## Calliope (12 January 2015)

Israel will need more territory, i.e. living space. Islamic terrorism is driving thousands of Jews out of their home country France, to resettle in Israel. It seems equitable that they acquire extra land coutesy of the local Islamists.



> Adding immeasurably to France’s woes is the awful surge in virulent anti-Semitism, with the deliberate targeting of a kosher supermarket in a Jewish suburb just the latest manifestation of a profoundly worrying upsurge in anti-Jewish violence. In 2014 this saw the number of French migrants fleeing to start new lives in Israel double from the previous year to more than 7000 ”” topping Israel’s list of arrivals




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...social-challenge/story-e6frg71x-1227181492719


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## Macquack (12 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Israel will need more territory, i.e. living space. Islamic terrorism is driving thousands of Jews out of their home country France, to resettle in Israel. It seems *equitable that they acquire extra land *coutesy of the local Islamists.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...social-challenge/story-e6frg71x-1227181492719




Calliope, you forgot to end you statement with the "roll eyes  (sarcastic)" smiley , because you must be joking.


----------



## Calliope (12 January 2015)

Macquack said:


> Calliope, you forgot to end you statement with the "roll eyes  (sarcastic)" smiley , because you must be joking.




Yes I know I am dreaming Mac...but the ideal _quid pro quo _rarely happens in the real world.


----------



## basilio (16 January 2015)

Saw a film last night on SBS on demand that gave an insight into what is happening in the West Bank.  Also brings home just how angry and despairing the Paelstinians must feel as they watch Israel systematically confiscate their property, throw them into jail if they protest and cut up their state into a thousand  pieces.

Worth a watch.  Also worth considering just how much of a challenge it was to produce a movie inside the West Bank with Israeli military occupation.



> Pomegranates And Myrrh
> 
> Aired on 13 January 2015 on SBS ONE Expires on 27 January 2015, 1:55am.
> 
> A reconstruction of life within the Palestinian diaspora through the eyes of a newlywed couple torn apart by political turmoil. Kamar and Zaid’s honeymoon is short-lived when Zaid is arrested by Israeli forces for refusing to give up land in the occupied territories. Directed by Najwa Najjar and stars Yasmine Elmasri, Hiam Abbass and Walid Abdul Salam. (From Palestine, in Arabic, English subtitles) (Drama) (2008) PG




http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/92129859721/Pomegranates-And-Myrrh


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## basilio (16 January 2015)

Worth pointing out that Pomegartes and Myrrh was certainly not a creature of Hamas ect. 



> *A romance of Palestinian origin that avoids making an argument about Middle East politics.*
> John Anderson
> 
> Love in the time of razor wire is the subject of “Pomegranates and Myrrh,” a romance of Palestinian origin that avoids making an argument about Middle East politics, and as a result is fiercely political and fiercely charged. Romantic elements, first-rate acting and an unusual pedigree could make tyro helmer Najwa Najjar’s heartfelt drama a specialty hit, particularly in the proper hands. Pic is now traveling the fest circuit following its Sundance premiere.
> ...




http://variety.com/2009/film/reviews/pomegranates-and-myrrh-1200475326/


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## Julia (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Saw a film last night on SBS on demand that gave an insight into what is happening in the West Bank.  Also brings home just how angry and despairing the Paelstinians must feel as they watch Israel systematically confiscate their property, throw them into jail if they protest and cut up their state into a thousand  pieces.



I heard a similar doco on Radio National over the holiday period.   It was quite heartbreaking, but because feelings on both sides seem to be so extreme, I found myself questioning how objective it could possibly have been.
That might have been completely unfair.


----------



## Tisme (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Saw a film last night on SBS on demand that gave an insight into what is happening in the West Bank.  Also brings home just how angry and despairing the Paelstinians must feel as they watch Israel systematically confiscate their property, throw them into jail if they protest and cut up their state into a thousand  pieces.




I remember the WA govt forcing the sale of land for subdivisions. I'm guessing the fellas who got fleeced in those days felt fairly angry too.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 January 2017)

The soldier tried for manslaughter of a Palestinian will be a hero in Netanyahu's mind. Hate runs deep in some people and a gun makes them feel super human.


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## luutzu (5 January 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> The soldier tried for manslaughter of a Palestinian will be a hero in Netanyahu's mind. Hate runs deep in some people and a gun makes them feel super human.




In that yahoo's mind, any killings of Palestinians is a step closer to completing God's mission for him.

But I think it's more the case that this one soldier is just one of those sacrificial lambs. One of those "bad apples" doing bad stuff you can't deny, so you investigate and fake outrage. It'll show that these kind of things aren't acceptable, because those who does it are apparently tried and punished.

Reminds me of what Chomsky said of the My Lai Massacre. How the trial of Calley and his Charlie Company were all the rage because a few journalists caught it on tape. But if you look at the VN war closely, there's a My Lai every day. Even I was shock to hear that kind of stuff, but it happened.


----------



## Rainman (5 January 2017)

noco said:


> If someone gave you punch on the nose are you not going to retaliate or are would you turn the other cheek.
> 
> FCS.....Hamas fired some 2000 rockets into Israel in the past 2 weeks. What would expect them to do?
> 
> ...




Australia does not occupy Indonesian territory.  If it did, I could hardly blame Indonesia for attacking us.


----------



## luutzu (16 September 2017)

Part II of interviews with the makers of a new doco "*The Occupation of the American Mind"*. 

Incredible how modern-day propaganda works.


----------



## luutzu (6 December 2017)

Trump to recognise Jerusalem as Capital of Israel. Going to move US Consulate there.

I know Israel pretty much took what's valuable in the West Bank and almost completely ethnic cleanse  Jerusalem, but do you have to rub it into the faces of not just the Palestinians, but all Muslims around the world?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-upending-decades-of-u-s-policy-idUSKBN1DZ04V


----------



## luutzu (4 April 2018)

Israeli "Defence" Forces keeping the peace.

Peaceful Palestinian protesters in Gaza getting shot by Israeli snipers.

Some 17 dead, over 1,000 injured - some critically.

How are imprisoned people living in an open prison, with no guns, no weapons, protesting within "their" own border some 500m away from Israel deemed a threat so great the IDF can just shoot them dead?

I guess it's that "peace offensive" they're pulling. I mean, some people just don't like being forced to live like animals and won't shut up about it.


----------



## newanimal (5 April 2018)

some qoutes from the horses mouth may help shed some light...


*Some Racist statements by main Israeli and Zionist figures*

* " (The Palestinians are) beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

* "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988.

* "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

* "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

* "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.

* "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

* Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

* "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

* "We must do everything to ensure they (the Palestinian refugees) never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

* "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

* "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum."

* "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist... There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

* "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

* Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

* "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. _ tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

* "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

* "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

* "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
* "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 (Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1).

* "We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920).

The modern founder of Zionism Theodor Herzl once said:

"It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends".[6][7]

*UN resolutions*

Main articles: United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 and UN General Assembly Resolution 4686

On November 10, 1975 the United Nations General Assembly adopted, by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), Resolution 3379, which stated that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination."

However, on 16 December 1991, it was rescinded by Resolution 4686, with a vote of 111 to 25 (with 13 abstentions). The resolution 4686 was acheived under a severe pressure from US and Israel. Israel made it a condition to participate in the Peace process in the Middle East._


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## Tisme (5 April 2018)

Colonial power:

https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2016/sykes-picot-100-years-middle-east-map/


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## luutzu (5 April 2018)

newanimal said:


> some qoutes from the horses mouth may help shed some light...
> 
> 
> *Some Racist statements by main Israeli and Zionist figures*
> ...




That's messed up. Particularly seeing what Hitler and the Nazi did to the Jews of Europe. 

But I supposed psychos never let a crisis like attempted genocide go to waste.


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## luutzu (5 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> Colonial power:
> 
> https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2016/sykes-picot-100-years-middle-east-map/




I didn't know the French were that busy in the Middle East. 

Thought they were only in North/West Africa in that region.

Dam, the Yanks really did take over practically all the former colonies of Spain, France, Britain didn't they.


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## luutzu (20 October 2018)

197 Dead. More than 5,300 injured through live gun fire. Unknown number of other injuries.


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