# Australia - Land of the big fat rip-off



## numbercruncher (15 June 2012)

Like many of you Ive done a fair bit of travelling so I dont need to read it in news articles to know- but we have been transformed comparitively into the land of the big fat rip-off.

Anyone else notice ?



> FORGET the lucky country - Australia has been branded the land of the great big rip-off.
> 
> 
> Click here to share on Facebook. Read More
> ...




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/australia-among-the-worlds-priciest-on-food-housing/story-fn7x8me2-1226221237830



> SIX of the world's 30 most pricey cities for expats are in Australia, a survey has found.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/breaking-news/aussie-cities-among-worlds-most-expensive/story-e6frf7ko-1226392974871


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## robusta (15 June 2012)

Would you take any of the following to make things cheaper;
Recession?

High unemployment?

Deflation?

Increased population?

Lower wages?

We should Kolbe to Greece and live like kings.


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## numbercruncher (15 June 2012)

Im happy with any of your suggestions bar population growth


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## Boggo (15 June 2012)

Adelaide is now the 27th most expensive city in the world - Adelaide FFS !

Bungling, mismanagement and the looneys running the asylum.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/money...f-the-carbon-tax/story-e6fredkc-1226396017546

_This morning I went to The Centrelink Office to sign my dogs up for welfare.  At first the lady said, "Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare."
So I explained to her that my dogs are mixed in colour, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no frigging clue who their Dads are.
They expect me to feed them, provide them with housing and medical care. So she looked in her policy book to see what it takes to qualify.

My dogs get their first cheques next Friday.

Damn, this is a great country!!_


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## robusta (15 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Im happy with any of your suggestions bar population growth




Wow, that is a shock to me, I think we will get population growth anyway, this does not bother me too much, the other options while inevitable in the long term are unpalatable.


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## robusta (15 June 2012)

Boggo said:


> Adelaide is now the 27th most expensive city in the world - Adelaide FFS !
> 
> Bungling, mismanagement and the looneys running the asylum.
> http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/money...f-the-carbon-tax/story-e6fredkc-1226396017546
> ...




NZ is a whole lot cheaper until you look at wages.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT LIVING STANDARDS.


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## Boggo (15 June 2012)

robusta said:


> YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT LIVING STANDARDS.




Agree, but it is not static.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-true-cost-of-living-in-dispute-20110208-1akjs.html

This is an extract from the link below...
Most European cities surveyed, including Athens, Madrid and Lisbon, slid down the rankings, *while every surveyed city in Australia, China, Japan and New Zealand climbed,* with Tokyo coming top.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2158759/Tokyo-worlds-pricey-city-expatriates.html


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## robusta (15 June 2012)

Boggo said:


> Agree, but it is not static.
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-true-cost-of-living-in-dispute-20110208-1akjs.html




Good point Boggo, it does seem that the essentials (food, electricity, insurance, gas...) are rising faster than the luxuries (television, computers, European holidays...)

Still I think we are still the lucky country.


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## Tyler Durden (15 June 2012)

robusta said:


> Would you take any of the following to make things cheaper;
> Recession?
> 
> High unemployment?
> ...




Australia hasn't had a recession for a while, perhaps it's time for one to flush out inefficiencies.


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## burglar (15 June 2012)

robusta said:


> ... the essentials (food, electricity, insurance, gas...) ...




You forgot sugar!


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## robusta (15 June 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> Australia hasn't had a recession for a while, perhaps it's time for one to flush out inefficiencies.



Like the recession we had th have? Thank you Mr Keating.

No need to wish for one we will have a recession sooner or later that is a guarantee.


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## young-gun (16 June 2012)

robusta said:


> No need to wish for one we will have a recession sooner or later that is a guarantee.




+1, recessions are an unpleasant but necessary step in an economic cycle. they should be allowed to occurr, instead of prevented. as when you have decades of prevention balled together you end up with a scenario far worse than a mild recession. I personally think that's what we're heading towards.


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## wayneL (16 June 2012)

robusta said:


> Like the recession we had th have? Thank you Mr Keating.




As much as it pains me to agree with Keating on anything, he was absolutely right about that.

...and part of the problems we are now experience is because of the the recession we should've, but never did have.

Governments and central bankers f*** with the business cycle to OUR peril.


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## joea (16 June 2012)

Just take one food product.
Tomato. In the tablelands where I live the farmer market sell the for $2-$3/ dollars/kilo and you will see them in Woolworths for double that.
In Bowen a major plant supplier was wiped out by someone dosing poison in the water system. He started again
and when they plants were ready to supply was hit with poison over spray. So he closed the gates and said stuff it!!

Down South there were 400 tomato suppliers to 5 processing plants, and this year there will be a few growers supplying one plant.

The big chains are doing their damnedest to shut our farmers down to bring in imported product to make more product.

So go tell all the tomato farmers and workers that this is the lucky country.

So less see what the government did. Price watch and fuel watch. Yeah that lasted a long time!!
Yep! Worked like a beauty.
It is the land of the rip-off. Ripped off by the government and multi nationals.
joea


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## joea (16 June 2012)

burglar said:


> You forgot sugar!




I am from the sugar industry.
When you graph sugar, supply the world price in conjunction to the price our farmers received over that time period and you will see a different picture.
In one period we were getting 6 cents a pound, and Costa Rica((subsidized by USA) was getting 25 cents a pound.

Great eh!
joea


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## lurker123 (16 June 2012)

Other countries like the US subsidize and guarantee the food produced will be purchased if not sold, with tax payers money. The day Australia fully opens the floodgates to foreign food imports will mark the day Australia truly starts becoming a s*h*i*t*hole. 

The right argues for the free market and says that if Australian farmers cannot compete they should find another job. This is the most dangerous mind*f*u*c*k, the right has ever tried. The fact of the matter is that the free market doesn't exist with subsidies/ government guarantees and differences in currencies. 

The loss of food production in Australia is tantamount to Australia having no military. Without a doubt food is the most important commodity. When Australia has no food production of its own, it will give the countries/corporations that we import from nearly unlimited power over Australia. This is especially dangerous in today's climate of possible imminent global collapse. If there is global economic crash/ anarchy, food becomes the most important thing there is. Australia becomes truly ****ed at this stage when it has to rely on food imports. 

Not to mention the dim future of food production, without significant scientific breakthroughs, food will become a major problem in the future. 
1) With overpopulation, more people need more food. 
2) Loss of arable farmland due to the effects of over farming e.t.c. 
3) Peak oil and the peak of other resources, our current form of agriculture relies heavily on oil, ammonia the precursor to food/fertilizer is produced with natural gas. Phosphorus and Potassium are also extremely important in our current form of agriculture, needless to say they are also mined and as we use up the easily extractable/mined sources for these chemicals a problem will appear. There is a reason BHP tried to do a hostile takeover on Canadian Potash Corporation. Potash = Potassium. RIO also has some Potash resources.
4) With the loss of cheap energy/oil food will increasingly become more expensive to produce and transport.


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## joea (16 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> Other countries like the US subsidize and guarantee the food produced will be purchased if not sold, with tax payers money. The day Australia fully opens the floodgates to foreign food imports will mark the day Australia truly starts becoming a s*h*i*t*hole.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/canned-why-local-tomatoes-cop-a-pasting-20120526-1zc2q.html

joea


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## Junior (16 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> Other countries like the US subsidize and guarantee the food produced will be purchased if not sold, with tax payers money. The day Australia fully opens the floodgates to foreign food imports will mark the day Australia truly starts becoming a s*h*i*t*hole.
> 
> The right argues for the free market and says that if Australian farmers cannot compete they should find another job. This is the most dangerous mind*f*u*c*k, the right has ever tried. The fact of the matter is that the free market doesn't exist with subsidies/ government guarantees and differences in currencies.
> 
> ...




Good post.  Food security is important.

So, does the major issue lie with the duopoly held by Coles/Woolworths?  Are these organisations overly profitable given the industry they operate in?  Maybe it comes down to regulation, should we make it easier for the like of Aldi, Costco, IGA and other foreign operators to open stores, but at the same time restrict food imports?


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## Calliope (16 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> Other countries like the US subsidize and guarantee the food produced will be purchased if not sold, with tax payers money. The day Australia fully opens the floodgates to foreign food imports will mark the day Australia truly starts becoming a s*h*i*t*hole.




That will be the time when you, no doubt, will be looking for a cheaper country to lurk in. Take your pick of these. The problem will be finding employment or welfare.

http://www.i-to-i.com/campfire/trav...ld-rsquo-s-cheapest-countries-to-live-in.html


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## Gringotts Bank (16 June 2012)

Junior said:


> Good post.  Food security is important.
> 
> So, does the major issue lie with the duopoly held by Coles/Woolworths?  Are these organisations overly profitable given the industry they operate in?  Maybe it comes down to regulation, should we make it easier for the like of Aldi, Costco, IGA and other foreign operators to open stores, but at the same time restrict food imports?




Remember markets.  Good quality, ok prices.  I'd like to see more farmer's markets in Melb.


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## joea (16 June 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Remember markets.  Good quality, ok prices.  I'd like to see more farmer's markets in Melb.




I have an idea!
In in Nth. Qld. With Tomato I grow my own for nine months a year.
I will go to a local market and get the prices of about 6 to 12 vegetables, or fruits.
Then we could get somebody from say Townsville, Mackay, Rockhampton etc all the way to Melbourne and see what we come up with.
Then we can do a spread sheet and posts the results.
I am just cooking prawns. Off local boat $10/kilo Medium, Tigers and Endeavour mix.(21/30)
I will list, potato, tomato, pumpkin, lettuce, lebanese cucumber, carrot, banana, bean, onion, garlic, orange, lime.
People can add to list over night if they like.
joea.


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## johenmo (16 June 2012)

Look at purchasing power parity if you want to compare.  Tends to cover more than what covers any individual's personal wants.  Having said that, direct comparison for the things that come out of, say, asia and go to several markets (think Levi's) and you see a huge difference in price.  

http://www.oecd.org/department/0,3355,en_2649_34347_1_1_1_1_1,00.html

A table
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PPPGDP


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## damien275x (16 June 2012)

"Australia, the land of the big fat ripoff" Incorrect. 
It is *Australia, The land of the big fat lazy whinger.*

Seriously, there are two sides of every transaction. A buyer, and a seller. They seller *must *price his or her products or services at a price the buyer is willing to pay. People here are willing to pay high prices, if they weren't, the prices would be lower. So you can either hold onto your cash when you see something over priced, or shut up.

Secondly, everybody in Australia is busy but nobody is working. I am 25, I have worked across 5 different offices (Call me a typical Gen Y job hopper) and I can tell you right now that a great deal of the general population literally go to work every day, park their fat ass in a chair, and then shuffle all of their work between each other all while whinging that they deserve a pay rise and that they're so busy. Fact: At the end of the day, their true productivity is zero. In fact, it's probably negative. 

If nobody is making anything and everyone is earning, what good is it? There is still less true supply available to purchase, prices are therefore going to be higher. If people were forced to vacate these roles and actually work, you know, produce, innovate, provide goods and services that give our people real value, then we would all be paying lower prices and be so much better off.

Sadly, the barrier to entry is too high (red tape, regulation, complicated tax, GST garbage) and the end result is a bunch of useless, inefficent corporations that babysit a bunch of lazy people 9-5 who have been so thoroughly brainwashed into thinking that "starting a business is risky" and "you need a safe job at a big company" .. Oh, as there is no competition did I mention they can charge you whatever the hell they want? How do you think these companies became so big? Because they started out small! Until people are willing to take risks, start small, and productively grow our economy, nobody is going forward, even if wages and share prices go up... don't kid yourself, that's not wealth, that's inflation.

I have had enough of working within these companies that do nothing but rip people off. I fully intend to compete with them and work towards growing my ventures every day, and at some point, I will be bigger and better than one of them. You've got to earn your first $1.00 before your first $10.00, your first 10 before 100, first 100 before 1000, and first $10,000 before 100,000+. But I will get there, and everyone else can sit back, put their legs in the air and get screwed over by me or rise up to the occasion and take me on, competition is necessary in keeping prices down and today nobody is willing to embrace any form of risk to (truly) grow the economy.

It is sad that at a time in history our dollar has never been more valuable. The cost of importing just about everything required to start a business is cheaper than ever.. yet despite this, everyone is crying poor.  Un-F'ing-Believable. If nobody is willing to jump in and have a go, we're going to be a very divided nation consisting of the very rich, and the unbelievably poor in 10 or 20 years time. Not that I care, as I can see where working a dead end job and relying on "Superannuation" will get you - nowhere. There is nothing super about it, and nothing super about retiring @ 60-70 when you're basically dead anyway. I look at superannuation as a birthday card from a distant aunt that may turn up in the mail or may not. I'm not going to count on it. I'm going to manage my own wealth and amass a great deal of it while I am young enough to enjoy it. Why would you want to be working at 50 doing pointless crap and why do people know that they'll most likely never retire comfortably yet continue to do the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over. Just eat a bullet already! What an underwhelming existence so many people seem to lead, all because they lack the courage to do what they really want to do.


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## maffu (16 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> The loss of food production in Australia is tantamount to Australia having no military. Without a doubt food is the most important commodity. When Australia has no food production of its own, it will give the countries/corporations that we import from nearly unlimited power over Australia. This is especially dangerous in today's climate of possible imminent global collapse. If there is global economic crash/ anarchy, food becomes the most important thing there is. Australia becomes truly ****ed at this stage when it has to rely on food imports.
> 
> Not to mention the dim future of food production, without significant scientific breakthroughs, food will become a major problem in the future.
> 1) With overpopulation, more people need more food.
> ...



While I agree food security is incredibly important for a peaceful society, I think you are forgetting that humans can adapt and change pretty quickly if required to.

Even in highly dense suburbs like Bondi, people are starting to grow community vege patches, on the nature strips in front of apartment blocks people get together and grow plants. There is a similar garden near my apartment, where plenty of people help out and are growing all sorts of fruits and vegetables. This kind of thing can be quickly and easily scaled up to help feed hungry mouths after a few months.

In the outer suburbs, there is plenty of capacity for food production, all those houses on a quarter acre block can easily grow plenty of vegetables and fruit, and a few chickens for eggs. The suburb I grew up in was very much a 3/4 bedroom house on a decent size block kind of place. My parents have a lovely flower garden and lawn. If things got bad they could easily fit in a few chickens, and turn their flower gardens into fruit and vege gardens. Every house in the street could do the same, and it would greatly lower the cost of food for them. It wouldn't solve the problem, but it would mean they could produce some of their own food and have to buy less of the expensive imported food. 

Regarding the technological progress, a friend of mine (engineering background) was just speaking to a few of his friends in Brazil who he studied with, and they have just started a new business launching a technology that will allow for a much cheaper extraction of Potash. Apparently it is an incredibly common mineral, but its normally in low grade and expensive to extract. So this technology would allow previously uneconomic resources to be mined. So it's another example where technology may be on its way to help solve these kind of problems.


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## lurker123 (16 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> That will be the time when you, no doubt, will be looking for a cheaper country to lurk in. Take your pick of these. The problem will be finding employment or welfare.
> 
> http://www.i-to-i.com/campfire/trav...ld-rsquo-s-cheapest-countries-to-live-in.html




You obviously put 1+1 and got 3 instead of 2. Yet more of the same mind**** from a republican. It is pretty obvious that once Australia opens the flood gates for food imports, food gets cheaper due to the cheap imports. That is the whole reason that farmers will be losing their jobs, they can't compete with the cheap imports that you and the rest of the republicans whole wholeheartedly support.  Let me spell it out for you, cheaper food = cheaper country to live in. Yet somehow you are trying to mind**** cheap imports = more expensive country to live in. 

My reason for making the previous post was to correct number crunchers misguided view, which you republicans have successful implanted into him. 

Funny that you mention welfare, when as a republican you don't support taxes, welfare is paid for through taxes. Then again its not funny for me, I always knew you supported taxes, you support taxes from everyone else, you just support a decrease in taxes for you and your cohorts. 

Employment, wow just wow, can't believe you mention the crap employment and pay in third world countries when you wholeheartedly support Gina trying to increase unemployment in Australia and decreasing wages in Australia.

Man I can't believe the mind**** your trying. Mate I suggest you do what you suggested someone else do in another post, don't reply and remain silent. That means you win right, laugh out loud. Seriously try and understand that your mind**** is not going to work easily with me. I know it works with other people, your going to have to try harder for it to work with me.

If it isn't obvious, I believe the whole world is ****ed by people like you, it doesn't matter which country I lurk in. The only goal is to make sure that I'm in the position where I can't get ****ed by people like you, no matter what happens. That possibly means pretending to fit in with people like you in the future when you and your cohorts successfully complete your agenda. That is the whole reason me and everyone else is on this forum. Trying to invest, to protect our own futures. Most likely in your case, your trying to protect your present and advance your agenda by mind****ing others into giving up their futures.

That's right, you can't mind**** a wacko conspiracy theorist.

Number Cruncher, Australia is not a rip-off, you need to dig deeper. Don't get confused. Let me give you an example. Occupy Wall streets slogan is that they are the 99% and they are protesting against the 1%. There slogan when applied to the entire earth is completely false. The fact of the matter is that the majority of people living in America aside from the homeless are in or close to the top 1%. Someone on centrelink payments is probably in the top 5%. http://www.givingwhatwecan.org/resources/how-rich-you-are.php
Assuming someone on centrelink is getting 20k a year, I'm too lazy to find out what they are really getting. type 20k into the field on that website and you get the top 4.8% of the worlds population. Type 30k, my assumption for the minimum wage in Australia and you get top 1.9%. Type 50k, my assumption of the average wage and you are definitely in the top 1%, top 0.77%. The fact of the matter is that anyone in a first world country is in or close to the top 1%. This has been adjusted to take purchasing power parity into account.

The first world has been exploiting the third worlds natural resources and cheap labour. Apart from technology that has been the reason for our prosperity. What occupy wall street is really protesting is that the wealth is moving away from the middle and working class of America into the hands of the working class in China, with the rest getting into the hands of the wealthy. 

You need to look at what the higher prices in Australia has gotten us when compared to America. Although a bad tax, the g.s.t introduced by the liberals helped Australia go into the financial crisis with a surplus. Australia is a country where the working class is still doing decent compared to America. Now look at America, with almost no social security to speak of, you got places with giant populations of homeless people. Going to the hospital costs a arm and a leg so to speak if your in the working class. Illegal immigrants there are taking jobs there for pay that you wonder how the hell they can survive on that pay. The fact that these illegal immigrants exist and are willing to work for peanuts means that working class Americans lose their jobs. Bottom line, low prices in America are a contributing factor in turning America into a third world country.


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## lurker123 (16 June 2012)

Junior said:


> Good post.  Food security is important.
> 
> So, does the major issue lie with the duopoly held by Coles/Woolworths?  Are these organisations overly profitable given the industry they operate in?  Maybe it comes down to regulation, should we make it easier for the like of Aldi, Costco, IGA and other foreign operators to open stores, but at the same time restrict food imports?




Interesting suggestion, I personally don't delve into possible solutions since being a pessimist I believe nothing the average citizen does including voting has much effect on what the government does. The only thing I can do is to look after my own interests in these turbulent times. The only reason I made that post was to expose number cruncher with the other factors involved. 

Restricting imports is not as simple as it seems. Due to international agreements, free trade e.t.c. Other governments may take a dim view on what Australia tries to do by restricting imports. This could have severe consequences on Australia depending on the response of foreign countries, everything in this world is so interconnected. E.g Australia is a net importer of Potash from other countries.



			
				maffu said:
			
		

> While I agree food security is incredibly important for a peaceful society, I think you are forgetting that humans can adapt and change pretty quickly if required to.
> 
> Even in highly dense suburbs like Bondi, people are starting to grow community vege patches, on the nature strips in front of apartment blocks people get together and grow plants. There is a similar garden near my apartment, where plenty of people help out and are growing all sorts of fruits and vegetables. This kind of thing can be quickly and easily scaled up to help feed hungry mouths after a few months.
> 
> In the outer suburbs, there is plenty of capacity for food production, all those houses on a quarter acre block can easily grow plenty of vegetables and fruit, and a few chickens for eggs. The suburb I grew up in was very much a 3/4 bedroom house on a decent size block kind of place. My parents have a lovely flower garden and lawn. If things got bad they could easily fit in a few chickens, and turn their flower gardens into fruit and vege gardens. Every house in the street could do the same, and it would greatly lower the cost of food for them. It wouldn't solve the problem, but it would mean they could produce some of their own food and have to buy less of the expensive imported food.




Being a pessimist, I believe that if there is a collapse, people will be raping and pillaging like what happened in New Orleans after the Hurricane rather than banding together to try and get through the tough times. Any banding in my view would be negative, that of gangs of thugs for pillaging.



			
				maffu said:
			
		

> Regarding the technological progress, a friend of mine (engineering background) was just speaking to a few of his friends in Brazil who he studied with, and they have just started a new business launching a technology that will allow for a much cheaper extraction of Potash. Apparently it is an incredibly common mineral, but its normally in low grade and expensive to extract. So this technology would allow previously uneconomic resources to be mined. So it's another example where technology may be on its way to help solve these kind of problems.




I love technology, however I doubt its gonna save the human race in the long run. The fact that Einsteins equations seem to stipulate the impossibility of traveling faster than light remains. Without the possibility of exploiting the resources of other planets I have a dim view of the chances of humanities survival.

It would be great if you could provide more information on the technology and the name of the company. I'm always interested in researching new technology and the companies behind them.


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## Smurf1976 (16 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> The loss of food production in Australia is tantamount to Australia having no military. Without a doubt food is the most important commodity. When Australia has no food production of its own, it will give the countries/corporations that we import from nearly unlimited power over Australia.



The same could be said of many other industries too.

No steel = we can't make even basic machinery. We have two steelworks (Onesteel and Bluescope) and one alloy producer (TEMCO) in the country. Bluescope and TEMCO have both been struggling to remain in operation, with TEMCO idle for the past few months (about to restart however).

No bearings = no ability to make engines etc. We have one manufacturer, ACL, which has been facing periodic difficulties for years.

No fuel = we can't run the machinery even if we do manage to make it in the first place. Of the 10 major oil refineries we had 30 years ago, 3 have closed completely, 1 is about to close, 2 more are under threat and another one has downsized.

And on I could go. Much of the argument for "competition" is that it reduces prices. Um... We're one of the most "competitive" countries in the world with free trade etc, and also the most expensive. It doesn't seem to be working too well.

And for my pet subject, electricity. Adelaide was never as cheap as Vic, Tas or Qld but it had cheap power by world standards. But with the latest round of rises, they're about to have the most expensive electricity of any major grid in the world. That's the result of 20 years' of "micro economic reform" and "competition" in the industry. It's a failure by any measure as most can easily see. The other states are rapidly going the same way, with price jumps in the order of 20% per annum becoming normal. Precisely the outcome that those opposed to all this "reform" predicted when it started 20 years ago but which politicians ignored...


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## Tyler Durden (16 June 2012)

I saw an ad on tv earlier, not sure if it was Today Tonight or ACA, but there'll be a segment on Aussies moving to China because it's too expensive to live here (or it's much cheaper to live there).


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## Calliope (16 June 2012)

Lurker, Australia is the best country in the world for anyone who wants to work for a living. The biggest drawback is the proliferation of long winded whingers and potty mouths like you. We would be better off without your nastiness. You are the big fat rip-off.


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## rcm617 (17 June 2012)

Saw an article last week where McCain say Australian potatoes are getting to expensive for them to use them for their frozen chips. They are paying the farmers 25c per kilo.
For that 25c, farmers have to buy their seed potatoes, fertilisers, sprays, plant,cultivate, harvest, irrigate, transport to factory etc. Really cant see that they could do it much cheaper than that.
In the meantime, I wonder how much their top executives are getting paid.
I think that is the biggest problem in our western society nowadays, to many people at the top in companies/public service/professions thinking they are entitled to multiples of working class peoples pay with often minimal public benefit.


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## lurker123 (17 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Lurker, Australia is the best country in the world for anyone who wants to work for a living. The biggest drawback is the proliferation of long winded whingers and potty mouths like you. We would be better off without your nastiness. You are the big fat rip-off.




I consider it my job as the resident forum troll to be nasty and piss people off.


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## Calliope (17 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> I consider it my job as the resident forum troll to be nasty and piss people off.




I agree. You are doing a good job. Someone has to do the dirty work, and who better than a "wacko conspiracy theorist."



> That's right, you can't mind**** a wacko conspiracy theorist



.


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## johenmo (17 June 2012)

Junior said:


> Good post.  Food security is important.
> 
> So, does the major issue lie with the duopoly held by Coles/Woolworths?  Are these organisations overly profitable given the industry they operate in?  Maybe it comes down to regulation, should we make it easier for the like of Aldi, Costco, IGA and other foreign operators to open stores, but at the same time restrict food imports?




I work in the food manufacturing industry.  The supermarket model here is unlike any other in the world in terms of how much the duopoly holds.  With the top 2 having about 80% of the market that allows them a lot of power with suppliers, which also include growers.  In the US Walmart is about 13% market share, with about 3.5 billion sales per quarter. 

The top 2 demand or won't list non-private label (private label = their own brands) unless the % margin is high enough, and we're talking 1.5 to 2 x what the non-private label people make.  Roughly speaking - look at the price and multiply by 2/3 and that's what they buy it at.  They are pushing brands out for their own, many of which come from asia.  If you make private label, don't expect much return, it's basically to fill your lines and cover overheads.

And on top of that, one has to do trade spend, where you buy supermarket shelf space for it's position and amount, and suppliers provide the discounts in most cases and pay to be in the catalogues.

And to supply to the supermarkets the companies have to have all sorts of audits done to WQA or BRC or some other food standard.

The Aldi/costco models use their own private label where possible, which is mentioned above but get known brands where they can't cover (e.g. milo) with a substitute.  And have a limited range.

In terms of cost, food is cheaper now than it has been for many years and the dollar being at parity as opposed to 72 cents US (long term) is a contributor.



rcm617 said:


> Saw an article last week where McCain say Australian potatoes are getting to expensive for them to use them for their frozen chips. They are paying the farmers 25c per kilo.
> I think that is the biggest problem in our western society nowadays, to many people at the top in companies/public service/professions thinking they are entitled to multiples of working class peoples pay with often minimal public benefit.




Since chips were mentioned,Ggoogle it and looks at the reports and articles. The dollar is only part of what's causing problems with imports.  Subsidies that exist in other countries, and the lower cost inputs (fuel, water, electricity, labour, raw materials, equipment).  The Kearney report "2020: Industry at a crossroads" paints a  grim picture with jobs expected to go from about 312,000 to 180,000.  And it's starting.  The Australian potatoes are too expensive when compared to north american and europe - Belgium being around 100 euro per tonne.  Google frozen chips and you'll see that potatoes make up over half the cost of the chips.

Why are the spuds so cheap?  Europe has CAP subsidies - incidentally they are in a tizz because it's disappearing for potatoes grown for starch processing - and this makes it artificially "viable" to grow spuds.  In the US, all the inputs are cheap, fuel, water, equipment, land so spuds end up about half the cost of Australia.  They also have some hidden subsidies.  Some states fumigate the soil - killing everything - then top it up with fertilizers so as to get good yields.  So the potatoes in Australia cost about twice as much - see the McKinna report (google)

and this article  http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/chips-are-down-for-our-food-industry/story-e6frea83-1226238632847

And it's the same for fruit, other veges.  Other countries have subsidies and/or little food safety/standard auditing costs and/or other legislative requirements and costs.  Their cost inputs are lower than ours, at all levels.  It's not a level playing field and why we kids ourselves it is just beggars belief.  It's free trade into Australia, not out of.

As for money - generally speaking, if you want top dollar, don't work in the food industry.


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## Smurf1976 (17 June 2012)

johenmo said:


> It's not a level playing field and why we kids ourselves it is just beggars belief.  It's free trade into Australia, not out of.



I'm trying to think of a single example where it actually is a "level playing field" rather than one tilted heavily against Australian producers.

Still thinking...


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## wayneL (17 June 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm trying to think of a single example where it actually is a "level playing field" rather than one tilted heavily against Australian producers.
> 
> Still thinking...




Yep, just one personal example:

My old man manufactured high end upholstered furniture. Hawke/Keating's "level playing field" was nothing of the sort.

Finished product was able to be imported at 5% then 0% import duty, while much of the raw material that he needed to manufacture had up to 40% import duty. Really fair that was... :frown:


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## disarray (18 June 2012)

i wonder how long it will all last though? the whole system is built on cheap energy and oil based transport, it can't last forever. i see tinned italian tomatos for $1 a tin clobbering the ardmona local brand at $1.80 or so. i see chinese ya pears for $1 a kilo. even the fish store is selling chinese fish at $20 a kilo. there is no way all this stuff can be manufactured, shipped / refrigerated then distributed across the country to be dumped on the market at ridiculously low prices once oil (and energy in general) costs really starts to rise.



			
				Tyler Durden said:
			
		

> I saw an ad on tv earlier, not sure if it was Today Tonight or ACA, but there'll be a segment on Aussies moving to China because it's too expensive to live here (or it's much cheaper to live there)




i caught a cab the other day and the hungarian driver said he's moving back to eastern europe because australia is way too expensive and living standards over there have risen. interesting times.


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## Calliope (19 June 2012)

disarray said:


> i caught a cab the other day and the hungarian driver said he's moving back to eastern europe because australia is way too expensive and living standards over there have risen. interesting times.




That's good news. I hope the Rumanian credit card bandits go home too, and prey on their own people.


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## DB008 (19 June 2012)

disarray said:


> i caught a cab the other day and the hungarian driver said he's moving back to eastern europe because australia is way too expensive and living standards over there have risen. interesting times.




LOL!

I have a cousin who is a high school teacher in Budapest. He's been teaching for over 15 years. 
Want to know what he takes home each month? 500 Euro....


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## lusk (19 June 2012)

DB008 said:


> LOL!
> 
> I have a cousin who is a high school teacher in Budapest. He's been teaching for over 15 years.
> Want to know what he takes home each month? 500 Euro....




Obviously wage inflation has been kept in check


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## prawn_86 (19 June 2012)

DB008 said:


> LOL!
> 
> I have a cousin who is a high school teacher in Budapest. He's been teaching for over 15 years.
> Want to know what he takes home each month? 500 Euro....




Yeh but what can he live on?

I think a couple could live a very comfortable life in most non-western places in the World for about 10k AUD a year. Eastern Europe, South America, India, Africa, most of Asia

In fact that is one of my goals. Get my passive income to 10k pa and then go and live overseas and do nothing (work wise) for 12 months. I'm about halfway there at the moment


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## numbercruncher (19 June 2012)

I have loads of examples of things I save big money on from buying overseas -

This is one of my latest..

Popular Mechanics Magazine from well known online retailer here is $168 per year, I got a 3(three) year subscription direct from the states delivered to my po box for $60ish.

Numerous other things I purchase off shore because Oz is a big fat rip-off


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## CanOz (19 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> I have loads of examples of things I save big money on from buying overseas -
> 
> This is one of my latest..
> 
> ...




iPad app is free and the 1 year subby is 19.99 USD auto renew until canceled, delivered wirelessly of course!

you're doing well NC if you equal the iPad subby, well done!



CanOz


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## mr. jeff (19 June 2012)

Since we're airing I will add that fuel in Australia is very cheap, actually, too cheap and so is our food. 
We can't keep smashing everything unsustainably and hurting out farmers who are in most cases more efficient and produce great stuff. Try being a farmer and making more than break even. Forget about a wage by the way.

Fuel in many places is much more expensive than Australia and prices really are cheap. Rates a lot less so such as electricity where we are stuck paying in THE country on the planet with the best solar capacity. But no solar farms. Why not take advantage of the Chinese dumps and buy all their solar panel production, build the solar farms and use all that power.

We don't even have decent railways which use 1/6th less energy to move freight. Australia, where distances between cities are very great, doesn't have a decent rail freight system. And then ask a backpacker what they think of traveling from Melbourne to Sydney on the train. 3rd world or worse! Take the plane and burn the fuel instead and then we complain about a $150 ticket to travel 800km in 45 minutes. Go figure! We are the best country with the best whingers and plenty of racist people to boot. But I wouldn't move, great coffee and cheap petrol and $25/hour to wash dishes!


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## Judd (20 June 2012)

mr. jeff said:


> ....and $25/hour to wash dishes!




$23.52/hour plus $9/hour on Sunday's just to stack grocery shelves.  Does me for pin money.


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## breaker (20 June 2012)

Judd said:


> $23.52/hour plus $9/hour on Sunday's just to stack grocery shelves.  Does me for pin money.




As a business owner I can tell you that is unsustainable that cost is passed onto you.
Caltex is now closeing a refinement plant and shipping oil from Singapore at the loss of 1100 workers.
watch fuel price


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## Judd (20 June 2012)

breaker said:


> As a business owner I can tell you that is unsustainable that cost is passed onto you.
> Caltex is now closeing a refinement plant and shipping oil from Singapore at the loss of 1100 workers.
> watch fuel price




Well, I'll leave it to you to tell the supermarket chain that.  I didn't set the rate and, frankly, as I was simply looking for part-time work to fill in a few days of the week and I have no need for the money (but don't let 'em know, OK?) I would have been more than happy to accept a lower hourly rate.  At least the Co does not have to pay super and all those other overheads for me.


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## numbercruncher (21 June 2012)

mr. jeff said:


> Since we're airing I will add that fuel in Australia is very cheap, actually, too cheap and so is our food.
> We can't keep smashing everything unsustainably and hurting out farmers who are in most cases more efficient and produce great stuff. Try being a farmer and making more than break even.




Ha - 80pc of our grocery market is controlled by two huge companies and guess who TELLS famers what hey will be paid?

We prefer organic and typically buy fruit and veg from a community market, which is quite profitable for the grower/s.

Dont see how you figure our food and fuel is "too" cheap? Maybe a frivilous commen like a RE agent saying houses are currentlt a bargain ?


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