# The only thing required for evil to succeed...



## YOUNG_TRADER (31 July 2006)

I can't sometimes believe what I see on the news,

THE UN ARE A BUNCH OF SACKLESS F**KWITS, who are sitting on the hands saying we are powerless, why don't they ever make a difference, every conflict I can think of, Bosnia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Somalia they never do anything, they just sit back and watch the human slaughter crying we're powerless, we're powerless,

Am I the only one who is so sick and tired of seeing this?

Why do we even have a so called 'United Nations'?

Don't confuse what I'm saying, I am Pro Capitalism big time and Pro Democracy and am an Avid believer that the World needs policing and that Energy Security (ie a stable supply of oil) is essential for the world to operate harmoniously, but even I sometimes stop and think what has the world come to? Why are we just sitting back and doing nothing? 

The only reason we in the 'West' ever seem to intervene is when it's in our best interests, 

Whats happening right now in the middle east is going to have far reaching consequences for decades to come, this is just the sort of fuel the extremists needed to keep their hatred burning and I don't blame them, when I'm sitting in my nice cosy house watching as a father clutches his dead child I ask myself what would I do were that me?

The answer I would seek revenge on anyone and everyone I felt was responsible, I know thats such a stupid way to feel but its my honest response,

Something has to be done, and done quick or else the world is on a collision course for World War 3,

In looking to the future the following quote echo's through my head,
*"The only thing required for evil to succeed, is for good men to stand by and do nothing" *


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## Joe Blow (31 July 2006)

Hi YT,

Sorry about the thread title edit but long thread titles in all capitals distress me.   



			
				YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> The answer I would seek revenge on anyone and everyone I felt was responsible, I know thats such a stupid way to feel but its my honest response




Unfortunately, as you are well aware, this is the root cause of terrorism. Until those in power recognise this and address it, we are in for a lot more bloodshed. Like yourself many others, myself included, are beginning to feel that peace of any description in the middle-east is indeed a lost cause.


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## twojacks28 (31 July 2006)

you are right on the money. the UN does not do anything at all. they just talk things over but when it comes to getting the job done they are useless. they complain how america and other countries are always in the wars but this is because the UN never does anything or ever gets involved. I mean why do they have a military if they never use it!


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## YOUNG_TRADER (31 July 2006)

Joe Blow said:
			
		

> Like yourself many others, myself included, are beginning to feel that peace of any description in the middle-east is indeed a lost cause.





It makes me so angry and sad when I see how much NEEDLESS suffering there is in the world, especially the images of children suffering


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## bunyip (31 July 2006)

YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> I can't sometimes believe what I see on the news,
> 
> THE UN ARE A BUNCH OF SACKLESS F**KWITS, who are sitting on the hands saying we are powerless, why don't they ever make a difference, every conflict I can think of, Bosnia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Somalia they never do anything, they just sit back and watch the human slaughter crying we're powerless, we're powerless,
> 
> ...




So do you have any suggestions about exactly what should be done?

Bunyip


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## Bobby (31 July 2006)

The pandemic of vicious events in the middle east will continue.

Why ? because there is no panace'a for religious Hate !   

Sick isn't it !

Bob.


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## Smurf1976 (31 July 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> So do you have any suggestions about exactly what should be done?
> 
> Bunyip



Number one thing to promote world peace is to move away from reliance on oil IMO. The one thing that much of this conflict has in common is that it is in or near oil-producing countries. And the primary reason for the West becomming involved, and NEEDING to become involved, is oil.

Regardless of whether or not it's running out, we're paying a huge price for our reliance on oil from unstable countries. An environmental price. An economic price. And a human price.

Apart from aviation and petrochemicals, which collectively use about one seventh of world oil supplies, the technology exists to move away from oil as an energy source. Obviously it comes at a cost, not just economically but in terms of wild rivers flooded for hydro dams, wind farms on the coast etc. But hydro, wind and geothermal (or for that matter coal) don't lead to war. And if you count the military cost and put a value on the lives lost then petrol costs a LOT more than $1.40 a litre anyway.

Time for a "man on the moon" type project to end Western dependence on Middle East oil IMO. If it costs a bit of money, floods a few valleys and means we all have to move freight by electric trains instead of diesel trucks then so be it. They are small prices to pay compared to ongoing and escalating conflict. 

As it stands now, the Middle East controls the West, not the reverse since they have the oil. A situation which will only worsen if we keep depending on the stuff and sending them increasing amounts of our national, and personal, wealth. Given what's happened in the Middle East in recent times, going back to 90's-style relative peace (well, compared to now there was peace) and cheap oil just doesn't seem likely.

IMO WWIII has already started. Time to put a stop to it while we still can.


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## twojacks28 (31 July 2006)

WWIII hasnt started yet. it only starts when other nations all around the world are involved in the war. so technically WWIII hasnt started yet. its just a another war between rival countries.


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## YELNATS (31 July 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> The pandemic of vicious events in the middle east will continue.
> 
> Why ? because there is no panace'a for religious Hate !
> 
> ...




So Karl Marx was right about religion, and a state without religion is a state without hate.


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## Bobby (31 July 2006)

YELNATS said:
			
		

> So Karl Marx was right about religion, and a state without religion is a state without hate.




Nice pick up Yelnats,   

What do you think ?

Bob.


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## bvbfan (31 July 2006)

UN tried to pass a resolution that would have maybe allowed greater involvement by members of the security council but the best buddy of the perceived aggressors intervened and vetoed the resolution.

You know damn well why, to draw in the another member of the axis of evil and justify another war and invasion if they got involved.


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## the_godfather4 (31 July 2006)

YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> The answer I would seek revenge on anyone and everyone I felt was responsible, I know thats such a stupid way to feel but its my honest response,




Mate, its not a stupid way to feel because it is human nature......i'm sorry but if anyone out there takes the moral high ground and says that they would not take absolute revenge on those responsible, they live in fairy land where Santa Claus and the Easter bunny sip tea with unicorns......it is this revenge cycle that will never see peace in the region in our lifetime.....and who can blame them when u see a kid with its head and limbs blown apart  
They have just created themselves thousands more suicide bombers.....Shame on you UN!


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## Sean K (31 July 2006)

Back to YTs issue, yes, the UN is a paper tiger in some regards but it also does some good stuff, other than in peacekeeping/making. For eg, UNHCR, UNICEF, and other agencies promoting women's right's. 

The most obvious thing we see the UN doing is soldiers on the ground which unfortunately takes an agreement between the five permanent members of the Security Council (read WWII winners) and all these individual sovereign nations have their own agendas. Not that of the rest of the world.

The very unfortunate thing I see around the world atm, is people like us, YES US, who are busy pontificating, playing the stockmarket, counting how many yachts we can ski behind, and are not actually doing anything about it. Me and you and right now sitting on countless wealth compared to millions of people through Asia, Africa and Sth/Central America, and are still being gready. 

Perhaps I am speaking for myself, but I am a vey selfish human, looking after myself and family. That coming from someone who HAS served with the UN in peacekeeping/making... 

If we really all feel strongly enough about it, give back.


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## bunyip (31 July 2006)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> Number one thing to promote world peace is to move away from reliance on oil IMO. The one thing that much of this conflict has in common is that it is in or near oil-producing countries. And the primary reason for the West becomming involved, and NEEDING to become involved, is oil.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not it's running out, we're paying a huge price for our reliance on oil from unstable countries. An environmental price. An economic price. And a human price.




I certainly agree that it would be preferable if we could get rid of our reliance on oil.
But even if we could, I believe that trouble would continue in the middle East trouble spots for the simple reason that they're religious fanatics who hate each other purely on religious grounds. 
There's a saying that the only thing an Arab hates more than the west is another Arab. 
The situation in Iraq lends some weight to this theory.
All the different tribes and religious factions mean that they'll probably always be at each others throats, same as they've been for thousands of years.

If the Arab nations were to achieve their stated objective of wiping out the Jews, the next thing that would happen is they'd start fighting each other for the right to occupy Israel.

Bunyip


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## Buster (31 July 2006)

YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> THE UN ARE A BUNCH OF SACKLESS F**KWITS, who are sitting on the hands saying we are powerless, why don't they ever make a difference.



Sadly the UN seems to have been reduced to the proverbial 'Toothless Tiger'.  Although it was a good idea at the time, it has failed to deliver on too many occasions for my liking..   



			
				YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who is so sick and tired of seeing this?



Certainly not.. Views similar to yours were expressed 20 (odd) years ago when Iraq wasn't playing nicely.. It’s a view that is shared by many and for quite some time.. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to have changed anything..



			
				YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> The only reason we in the 'West' ever seem to intervene is when it's in our best interests.



To be fair that's not entirely correct.. Certainly it comes close when applied to the good ol' US of A, but not for a lot of other 'Western' civilisations.. 

If you can get hold of this movie it goes a long way to explain the US mentality.. Check it out..

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/



			
				YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> Whats happening right now in the middle east is going to have far reaching consequences for decades to come..



Consider 'What happened decades ago in the Middle East is having far reaching consequences right now'.. and you can see how today’s events may have transpired.. and why they will continue to occur..



			
				YOUNG_TRADER said:
			
		

> I would seek revenge on anyone and everyone I felt was responsible



Again, it's easy to understand how these events continue to occur isn't it.  Unfortunately they seem to be self perpetuating.. Granted it all seems bizarre to many of us here, but you must remember that their cultures and beliefs are very very different to ours, and life is extremely cheap in some of these countries..

I agree with the Smurf, removing the reliance on oil would go a long way to reducing the tensions, it would certainly eliminate a number of the larger 'stakeholder' countries from the area..



Cheers,

Buster


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## Rafa (31 July 2006)

The UN is toothlesss because it can't act unless all 5 permanent members of the Security Council... US, Russia, China, Britain and France are in agreeance... 

And when does that ever happen... Don't blame the UN, blame the 5 countries that hold it ransom!

Same with religion.... religion is just a weapon to motivate people to fight... same as nationalism, racism, etc, etc... Look at USSR... Communist... No Religion, No God... They still caused plenty of wars...

As kennas said in another post... its human nature to want more and conquer and get power... some do it via the tools provided by capitalism, globalisation, gaining huge wealth by explointing other people and lands, some do it with military power... almost all great empires use cheap rhetoric, be it racist rhetoric, religios rhetoric, nationalistic rhetoric to get the common people on side and willing to lay their lives down... FOR NOTHING!!!

And yes, as long as we keep funding Arab states by our lust of oil... Nothing much we can do about it i'm afraid...


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## Bobby (31 July 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Same with religion.... religion is just a weapon to motivate people to fight... same as nationalism, racism, etc, etc... Look at USSR... Communist... No Religion, No God... They still caused plenty of wars...
> 
> ...




Hey Rafa,

Your on direction with the above,  The greatest weapon system invented must be religion   
Sick & weak minds still flock to this poison with its balderdash. )

Bob,.


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## nelly (1 August 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hey Rafa,
> 
> Your on direction with the above,  The greatest weapon system invented must be religion
> Sick & weak minds still flock to this poison with its balderdash. )
> ...



 Hi ya Bob.....sorry but MY religion is NOT a motivation for violence and women and kid killing..... my religion [i do not even call it a religion] which is far from acrimonious...is not the root of all this cr#p that is happening today....MAN IS ie ego......
cheerful.... artyman:


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## Bobby (1 August 2006)

nelly said:
			
		

> Hi ya Bob.....sorry but MY religion is NOT a motivation for violence and women and kid killing..... my religion [i do not even call it a religion] which is far from acrimonious...is not the root of all this cr#p that is happening today....MAN IS ie ego......
> cheerful.... artyman:



 Hello Nelly,

Like our words, yep heaps of cr*p happening out there for sure !

Good night 
bob.


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## nelly (1 August 2006)

the_godfather4 said:
			
		

> Mate, its not a stupid way to feel because it is human nature......i'm sorry but if anyone out there takes the moral high ground and says that they would not take absolute revenge on those responsible, they live in fairy land where Santa Claus and the Easter bunny sip tea with unicorns......it is this revenge cycle that will never see peace in the region in our lifetime.....and who can blame them when u see a kid with its head and limbs blown apart
> They have just created themselves thousands more suicide bombers.....Shame on you UN!




hi ya... godfather[feel weird sayin that] i agree it is HUMAN  nature....!
cheerful always...


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## nelly (1 August 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Back to YTs issue, yes, the UN is a paper tiger in some regards but it also does some good stuff, other than in peacekeeping/making. For eg, UNHCR, UNICEF, and other agencies promoting women's right's.
> 
> The most obvious thing we see the UN doing is soldiers on the ground which unfortunately takes an agreement between the five permanent members of the Security Council (read WWII winners) and all these individual sovereign nations have their own agendas. Not that of the rest of the world.
> 
> The very unfortunate thing I see around the world atm, is people like us, YES US, who are busy pontificating, playing the stockmarket, counting how many yachts we can ski behind, and are not actually doing anything about it. Me and you and right now sitting on countless wealth compared to millions of people through Asia, Africa and Sth/Central America, and are still being gready. If we really all feel strongly enough about it, give back.[The ideology of the Iranian revolution separates the world into Muslims and infidels, us and them at war and ordained by God never to make peace. To these revolutionaries, the West, the US, Israel, liberal democracy, is all of a piece -- strong, perhaps, in appearance but inwardly decadent -- so that one good pull will unravel the whole doomed cat's cradle. As faithful Shia Muslims, they also believe the doctrine that the End of Days is foretold, and imminent.Perhaps I am speaking for myself, but I am a vey selfish human, looking after myself and family. That coming from someone who HAS served with the UN in peacekeeping/making...




WELCOME BACK....i agreee...sorry if the typing isn't 2 sharp but have had a birthday party 2 attend 2.....yes i agree we r fortunate 2 live where we live...no bomb blast 2 contend with 24/7...no rape of women... no killing of men......no slaughter of children..we r indeed fortunate...and shoud  aid LESS fortunate...i personally aid 2 kids...1 in Nicaragua and 1 in Africa...through World Vision.....all i can do..atm....and i am solo.
cheerful alwayts :hide: ..we should at least b humanitarians.


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## Sean K (1 August 2006)

> The ideology of the Iranian revolution separates the world into Muslims and infidels, us and them at war and ordained by God never to make peace. To these revolutionaries, the West, the US, Israel, liberal democracy, is all of a piece -- strong, perhaps, in appearance but inwardly decadent -- so that one good pull will unravel the whole doomed cat's cradle. As faithful Shia Muslims, they also believe the doctrine that the End of Days is foretold, and imminent...




Thanks for adding that into my quote Nelly.

Oh, and thanks! It's great to be back!!!


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## noirua (1 August 2006)

Sometimes the answers as to how many things happen is to research them in depth - if you have the time. 

Many of the aircraft bombing Lebanon refueled at Glasgow Prestwick Airport in Scotland and are backed up, in supplies, from the former Royal Airforce Base at Kent International Airport in England. Both Airports are owned by New Zealand's " Infratil " and the Airports are fully managed, on Infratil's behalf,  by the United States Company " HRL Morrison ". 

It does seem, after President Bush's apology to the UK Prime minster, Tony Blair, that they refuelled without the UK's approval, and Managers " HRL Morrison " gave permission for the aircraft to land with Infratil's knowledge.

http://www.infratil.com/glasgow_prestwick_international_airport.htm

http://www.infratil.com/kent_international_airport.htm

http://www.hrlmorrison.com/infratil_manager_introduction.htm


HRL Morrison ( Australia ) are a subsiduary of HRL Morrison.


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## hiflo (1 August 2006)

*Re: When there is action there is reaction....*

I see this terrorism the legacy of western imperialism into middle east and Africa and English acceptance of Zionism after WWII, which allowed Israel to exist. 

As a result, Palestinians lost their homeland which they had occupied for thousands of years. They were pushed away from Jerusalem to live elsewhere.  

So to counteract the violence they experienced, including the three Israeli-Arab conflict, they are setting up groups like Intifata, Hezebollah and trying to get their homeland and their basic rights. 

Hezebollah is apparently set up in southern Lebanon and that is why Israel is attacking.

Is West going to interfere?

Some Jews from US and around the world may go back and fight for Israel.

But Western countries like US, Eng, & Aus?  How are they going to convince their public to justify their participation in War? 

1. Is there a totalitarin like Saddam Hussein?- no
2. Are we threated by our cold war enemies?- we are out of cold war.
3. Is Lebanon full of oil reserves?- may, but is not a world player in Oil Politics.


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## visual (1 August 2006)

on the other hand imagine if they all had learned to live togheter from the outset,right now they probably would`ve become so mixed that no one would be able to tell them apart.Right now these only 5 million Jews as compared to how many? arabs,having the Jews there probably would`ve lifted them out of the dark ages and integrated them into the world as we know it.Just a thought.It`s not as though the muslims who seem to want to drag everyone into the dark ages have ever been known to appreciate education.


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## Prospector (1 August 2006)

I was thinking with Mel Gibsons outburst re Jewish people, and am always trying to find answers to things that bother me.  So, at risk of offending probably every religious group in sight, as a questionning atheist I ask the following:


Why have the Jewish people been so reviled through history?

Why do Christian groups have such a difficult relationship with Jewish people given that one of the major 'pinnacles' of Christianity was the death on the cross and the resurrection three days later - without Judas this would not have happened

Wasnt Judas ordained to deliver Jesus to the Jews, so he had no choice?

Please be kind if I have insulted anyone - I am just trying to understand  

I dont understand why others can be hated just because they worship differently so for the life of me I dont understand religious wars at all!


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## Sean K (1 August 2006)

I think there could be about 100 good books out there that fail to adequately explain these questions Prospector. 

Obviously though, there is something going wrong out there! 

You don't even have to look 'out there' though. Just check out what 'Australians' do to each other on a day to day basis.


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## Rafa (1 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> on the other hand imagine if they all had learned to live togheter from the outset,right now they probably would`ve become so mixed that no one would be able to tell them apart.Right now these only 5 million Jews as compared to how many? arabs,having the Jews there probably would`ve lifted them out of the dark ages and integrated them into the world as we know it.Just a thought.It`s not as though the muslims who seem to want to drag everyone into the dark ages have ever been known to appreciate education.





Visual, you'll find people (common people that is) have been living together for many many centuries... most wars were fought on nationalistic grounds, rather than religious grounds...

Certainly, in places like the middle east... jews, muslims and christians lived side by side... In places like India, muslims and hindus lived side by side...

Infact, their bonds were so strong they were challenging the european occupiers at the time... in these cases... BRITAIN!

In the 1850's British adopted the policy of divide and rule... get them to fight amongst themselves, and leave britain alone...

They couldn't divide them on nationalistic lines, so they used religios lines... 
that worked for quite a few years, 70-80 years.. but eventually, the occupiers had to leave....

But when they left, they divided the land up on religious divides... making muslims relocate to muslim countries (pakistan, bangladesh, palestine, etc was formes) and the other religions to form other countries... 

This widespread uprooting of people from their traditional places of living is the root cause of many of the problems today...

Fundamentalist Islam is another of the side effects of the divide and conquer policy...


If you think I am talking crap... India was one country for over 5000 years... during that time it was occupied by Hindus (5000 years), Christians (2000years), Buddhist, Muslims (1000 years), etc.... Please explain why its only in the last 50 years did such a big need to divide into separate countries came about...

One answer... Britain sowed the seed of religious hatred and nurtured that from the late 18th century onwards...

Now we are reaping what we have sowed!


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## Sean K (1 August 2006)

Interesting point Rafa.

Has this ever happened in other parts of the world though in the name of religion and culture? 

What about the Mayans and Aztecs and even the Incans conquering and dividing in Central/Sth America. Is this not culture/religion dominating by force. I don't think the Poms were behind that.

Also, Hinduism and Islam, at various times, conquered parts of Sth East Asia, through conflict. No Poms around then either.

Maybe they are not the same sort of examples though....??


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## visual (1 August 2006)

Rafa,
I understand what you are talking about,but its just so tiring to be confronted by all this misery on a daily basis.How much worse must it be for the people actually living this situation.
I just wish they would all understand what its all about and just stop.


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## Sean K (1 August 2006)

Time to move to SW Tassie with no TV, Vis.


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## visual (1 August 2006)

You could be right there.
But what assurances have i got these morons wont be interested in that part of the world for training purposes,thats what they rely on,isn`t ?


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## Rafa (1 August 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Has this ever happened in other parts of the world though in the name of religion and culture?




Sure it has... people fight, and they pick whatever reason they can... you said it yourself...

almost all wars are fought becuase of greed, jealousy, the need to have more, the good old principles that capitalism are founded on..... 

however almost all wars are explained away on other reasons...!!!
self preservation
nationalism
cultural preservation
religions preservation


If your looking for root causes tho... you can't go much wrong with good old human nature!


SW tassie you say... 
i might join ya there...


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## Prospector (1 August 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Interesting point Rafa.
> 
> Has this ever happened in other parts of the world though in the name of religion and culture?





Oh yeah!  Try googling Sri Lanka - has been in civil war since 1983 because the Tamils, who were introduced to SL by the British to farm their precious tea, want a separate state from Sri Lanka.

Fiji - where the Indians were brought in to farm the sugar cane because the Indigenous population werent interested - again - the British at fault

Rafa is spot on - there are many instances of just his point!


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## visual (1 August 2006)

so its established then,the poms,not only oppressed people exploited them and so on,but also taught them how to wingh,dangerously!


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## kitehigh (1 August 2006)

noirua said:
			
		

> Sometimes the answers as to how many things happen is to research them in depth - if you have the time.
> 
> Many of the aircraft bombing Lebanon refueled at Glasgow Prestwick Airport in Scotland and are backed up, in supplies, from the former Royal Airforce Base at Kent International Airport in England. Both Airports are owned by New Zealand's " Infratil " and the Airports are fully managed, on Infratil's behalf,  by the United States Company " HRL Morrison ".
> 
> It does seem, after President Bush's apology to the UK Prime minster, Tony Blair, that they refuelled without the UK's approval, and Managers " HRL Morrison " gave permission for the aircraft to land with Infratil's knowledge.




I don't know where you got your info in regards to the aircraft boming lebanon, refueling at Glasgow. Thats just sounds plain wrong.  Israel doesn't have long range strategic bombers.  I think you have it mixed up with the transport planes that are flying in the smart bombs from America on route to Israel. 
 It is a crazy world though that we live in, where one country gives aid with one hand to ease the pain and suffering and then supplies the weapons to the other country to bring about the same that very same suffering.


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## Rafa (1 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> so its established then,the poms,not only oppressed people exploited them and so on,but also taught them how to wingh,dangerously!




   

yes, its important to not dwell too much on things visual and worry too much about why things happen....

it happens cause its in our nature...

i mean, if its not religion (muslim vs jews vs christian vs hindu vs buddhist), its ideology (capitalism vs communism vs socialiosm vs democracy vs dictatorism), or its nationalism (japs vs chinese vs germans vs english vs french vs russia)...

man will always find a good reason to go to war... to serve his own selfish needs... 

the person who wins is the one with righteous cause.... 
and the righteous cause is the one of the winner!  


so... we must make sure we win!


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## Julia (1 August 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> yes, its important to not dwell too much on things visual and worry too much about why things happen....
> 
> it happens cause its in our nature...
> 
> ...




Rafa

I wouldn't have picked you for the cynical tone of this post.  So we can justify any means towards our end?  And we are not even motivated by something as lofty as religious ideals?  It's all about power?

Julia


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## visual (2 August 2006)

And yet having said all that,all that the normal everyday people want is to be left alone.According to catalyst tonight, Iraqis in Baghdad just want to be able to have shave wear whatever clothes takes their fancy and be free.

Yet are living in an eviroment of fear just like the rest of us,this sentiment is portrayed over and over again when the media actually goes out and asks normal people ,so why the hell do their leaders act like such morons!  

On lateline again on ABC one of the ministers actually referred to hesbollah as a resistance force!IDIOT,according to him,reading between the lines that is ,people are being killed ,well according to him its worth it,really.I felt like kicking him,unfortunately my television would`ve taken the impact so I tought better of it.

So really the biggest problem in the middle east is that people are being kept hostages by these morons,
 I got the feeling that given the chance they`d have absolutely no problem having a proper life.It should`nt come as a surprise but when all we get is people telling us that they have a problem with this and that you tend to forget.How silly.


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## Prospector (2 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> according to him,reading between the lines that is ,people are being killed ,well according to him its worth it,really.I felt like kicking him,unfortunately my television would`ve taken the impact so I tought better of it.





Well, I am thinking we should go back to the days when the people forcing these wars on us (ie the Kings of old, the Prime Ministers/Presidents of now) have to actually take part in the battle themselves - like Braveheart for instance leading the charge.  Then the physical and brutal impact of the war becomes a reality for them.

These days, it is all so hi-tech that leaders (and the general public too) watch TV showing lights indicating the blowing up buildings on a television screen, like an advanced computer game.  They dont see the bodies, the blood, and cant hear the screams of the people anymore so forget that their hitech equipment is actually killing people.  It is war by remote control!


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## visual (2 August 2006)

Reost 39
the article I was referring to about everyday Iraqis was shown on Foreign correspondent,not catalyst.Just to clarify


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## Sean K (2 August 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> Well, I am thinking we should go back to the days when the people forcing these wars on us (ie the Kings of old, the Prime Ministers/Presidents of now) have to actually take part in the battle themselves - like Braveheart for instance leading the charge.  Then the physical and brutal impact of the war becomes a reality for them.
> 
> These days, it is all so hi-tech that leaders (and the general public too) watch TV showing lights indicating the blowing up buildings on a television screen, like an advanced computer game.  They dont see the bodies, the blood, and cant hear the screams of the people anymore so forget that their hitech equipment is actually killing people.  It is war by remote control!




Some North American Indian tribes have the right approach, if there can be, to this. Only men go off to battle, but it's the women who decide to go to war or not.


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## Rafa (2 August 2006)

Sorry Julia... cynical it certainly was... this conflict is getting to me.. i take it back... but hope you get my drift... 

History is written by the side who wins... and the side who wins are always portrayed as the good guys!

Thats why its important to know both sides of the story before casting judgement on either side... something I have seen happening a lot in the posts on the forum.

Yes, i think if we look beyond the political rhetoric and the power hungry zealots... arab, israeli and american in the 19th/20th century... british in he 17th/18th century... spanish/portuguese before them, etc, etc.... its blatantly obvious that all the common people want is peace... 

hmmm, but leaders being held accountable for their actions...
i'd like to see that!


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Some North American Indian tribes have the right approach, if there can be, to this. Only men go off to battle, but it's the women who decide to go to war or not.




Kennas,regardless of who decides to go to war,what we are seeing in this latest conflict is the population held hostage.In part so they can be used as innocents victims.And not only that but the media is actually being used to accomplish that.Hesbollah is firing missiles indiscriminately into populated areas yet only about 20 people have been killed ,on the other side hundreds have been killed,even after Israel warned them that they were going to bomb them.So seeing that our first instinct is self preservation,the only explanation that makes sense is that they are not being allowed to leave.
Regardless of is making the decisions that to me is a real sign,that Israel cant afford to lose,becasue than we all become expendable.


----------



## Sean K (2 August 2006)

Vis, 

I think Israel and the US will fail in the Middle East. Their current approach is galvanising the Muslim and Arab world and the radicals will simply grow in number. There are millions of Muslims diseffected around the world, earning low wages, or unemployed. With poor prospects in this world (but greater in the next of course) they will rise to their cultural brothers aid to wage war against Israel and the US. 

A terrorist organisation is one man and a bomb. We can not, and will not, defeat that. 

Let's treat the source. First, we have to find it.


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

Kennas,thats what the Japanese thought
at the end of the day a nuclear strike will be inevitable ,as horrifying as that sounds.Hopefully it will be the good guys striking first.


----------



## bunyip (2 August 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Some North American Indian tribes have the right approach, if there can be, to this. Only men go off to battle, but it's the women who decide to go to war or not.




And where did this piece of wisdom come from?


----------



## Prospector (2 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> at the end of the day a nuclear strike will be inevitable ,as horrifying as that sounds.Hopefully it will be the good guys striking first.




I dont know who the good guys are anymore


----------



## Rafa (2 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Hopefully it will be the good guys striking first.




As i said in my previous post...


> History is written by the side who wins... and the side who wins are always portrayed as the good guys!





If we are to be remembered as the good guys... We have to win!

I don't think a nuke will solve it.... could possibly make it worse... it will turn moderates into extremists... on both sides.

Taking out the Iranian govt tho might just do the trick!


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Taking out the Iranian govt tho might just do the trick!




And how do you propose that that comes about?Unless Israel bombs their plants,where the nuclear weapons are being worked on.


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> I dont know who the good guys are anymore





Prospector,going by yesterdays interview on lateline,the good guys are people who ultimately can be held accountable.The west is trying to portray Lebanon as being dragged into a war not of its making,yet this government minister all but admitted that hesbollah was a resistance force and doing something good.In my opinion the good guys are the ones who dont hide behind civilians while shooting missiles.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1703362.htm


----------



## Prospector (2 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> In my opinion the good guys are the ones who dont hide behind civilians while shooting missiles.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1703362.htm




Or maybe the good guys dont shoot at civilians?


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

Well without sounding too harsh,but if you allow yourself and your family to be put in that position then obviously you are not a civilian.The lack of a military uniform hardly makes you a civilian if you in fact are there of your own volition.And a good guy who puts on a military uniform and shoots back is only doing his duty.


----------



## Rafa (2 August 2006)

oh dear... now we are onto duty...
that puts a whole new slant on good vs bad...
now its a questions of pride... a test of mettle... or tikka!

shouldn't have brought that one up vis


----------



## Prospector (2 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Well without sounding too harsh,but if you allow yourself and your family to be put in that position then obviously you are not a civilian.The lack of a military uniform hardly makes you a civilian if you in fact are there of your own volition.And a good guy who puts on a military uniform and shoots back is only doing his duty.




Are we talking about the same thing Visual?   The Israelis have so far laid guided missiles on an ambulance, UN station and people's homes.  This is their home, where they live and work.  Even if they were given warning to evacuate, well, could they do so in time, where could they go and maybe they couldnt afford to anyway - just like the people ahead of Hurricane Katrina.  That's who I am talking about, but from your comments I am thinking maybe we are not on the same page?


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> Are we talking about the same thing Visual?   The Israelis have so far laid guided missiles on an ambulance, UN station and people's homes.  This is their home, where they live and work.  Even if they were given warning to evacuate, well, could they do so in time, where could they go and maybe they couldnt afford to anyway - just like the people ahead of Hurricane Katrina.  That's who I am talking about, but from your comments I am thinking maybe we are not on the same page?




Prospector,I think we are talking  about the same thing ,but you are much nicer than me,
the ambulance thing that was discredited,a missile would have left a much bigger damage,don`t know as I`m not a military person.As for the homes and work places ,even a few days ago the Herald sun published photos clearly showing "civilians"manning a missile launcher,another civilian was keeping an eye out over a particular area,cant remember the importance of this area,but there he stood with this machine gun,in cicilian clothes.


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Prospector,I think we are talking  about the same thing ,but you are much nicer than me,
> the ambulance thing that was discredited,a missile would have left a much bigger damage,don`t know as I`m not a military person.As for the homes and work places ,even a few days ago the Herald sun published photos clearly showing "civilians"manning a missile launcher,another civilian was keeping an eye out over a particular area,cant remember the importance of this area,but there he stood with this machine gun,in cicilian clothes.




Sorry Prospector,in a hurry didnt finish what I was saying,
anyway to follow on,
Even the UN admits that hesbollah is using the civilians as cover,shooting from populated areas,so I reiterate my ealier point.The people getting caught are either supporters willing to put not only their families in danger but also themselves or hostages,being held against their will,it may seem not likely but then again we are talking a terorrist organisation.Also according to the government minister interview last night he did`nt seem too worried about the civilians more about defending hesbollah,so obviously the civilians are expendabla in their eyes,and thats why no effort has been made by the lebanese government to get them out.


----------



## wayneL (2 August 2006)

Cheers


----------



## Sean K (2 August 2006)

he he, good one Wayne.

I reckon we'll see something like that in about 20 years when the US and China end up going for it.


----------



## DB008 (2 August 2006)

how long did it take u to figure out that the UN is the most corrupt governing power in the world. It's all about politics. All bark and no bite. They just send in peacekeepers after the violence.
Now, wouldn't it be interesting if the Lebs were ranked No2 or No3 in OPEC. I think that the US would have said something alot sooner in terms of a ceasefire (let alone letting israel start with the bombings).


----------



## Ants (2 August 2006)

Do yourselves all a favour and read the most fascinating book written in decades. I base this on its proposal of MANY MANY solutions.

*MANIFESTO on a NEW WORLD ORDER.* I think this titles seems a bit cliched but is one of possibly only a handful of books to live up to such a title.





From Publishers Weekly
The anti-globalization movement may have a reputation for traffic-blocking obstructionism devoid of a positive program, but this smart and stimulating manifesto aims to change that. Monbiot (Amazon Watershed; Captive State) is uncompromising in his attack on what he says is an international order run by and for wealthy elites and powerful corporations. But he is equally critical of what he sees as the left’s infatuation with localism and anarchism, its knee-jerk opposition to trade and its preoccupation with feel-good palliatives like "mindful consumption." What he offers instead is a utopian vision of a global democratic order that transcends the obsolete nation-state, based on a real world program for concrete institutions to supplant the undemocratic power centers of the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organization. His most substantive ideas concern world trade, which he feels should be restructured to open advanced countries to Third World exports while allowing backward economies to develop behind protectionist barriers. He calls for a Fair Trade Organization to set mandatory standards for international corporations, and resurrects Keynes’s proposal for an International Clearing Union that would automatically rectify trade imbalances and prevent poor countries from getting trapped in debt. Less thought out are proposals for a revitalized United Nations General Assembly that would abolish the Security Council, and a directly elected World Parliament, initially vested only with "moral authority." Monbiot’s ideas will find their critics, but his often scintillating analyses of the inequities of the world economy and his preference for constructive action over dogma make the book a good place to start for readers in search of solutions. 
Copyright  © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. 

This stuff is not rehash. Its bold and hopeful.
Please I beg you READ THIS BOOK.


----------



## Ants (2 August 2006)

Here is another review on this special book.

The Age of Consent: A Manifesto for a New World Order - Book Review
New Internationalist,  Sept, 2003  by Phil England
by George Monbiot (Flamiago, ISBN 0 00 715042 3)

The emphasis of the social justice movement has increasingly moved from identifying problems to proposing solutions particularly since the establishment of the annual World Social Forum in 2001.

In The Age of Consent Monbiot ratchets the debate up a notch by proposing that we now adopt a single programme for change which we can all get behind.

He's kick-started the process by studying many of the proposals on offer and presenting this draft plan of action. In essence, the world's poor would use the threat of defaulting on their combined debt in order to turn the World Trade Organization into a Fair Trade Organization, allowing them to apply protectionist measures to boost local industry while giving them access to the rich world's markets. Once wealth had been redistributed between countries by these means, an International Clearing Union--replacing the IMF and World Bank--would provide disincentives for the accumulation of debt and normalize the balance of trade between nations.

A self-establishing 'world people's assembly' run on the basis of representative democracy, unmediated by the nation-state and where everybody in the world had a single vote--would have the moral authority to pass judgment on the other global institutions. Different readers will be left with different questions but the scale of Monbiot's thinking is of the order we need if we are to address the problems that now confront us. The muscles he suggests we flex could grow in equivalence to the vested interests we need to overthrow.


----------



## visual (2 August 2006)

DB008 said:
			
		

> how long did it take u to figure out that the UN is the most corrupt governing power in the world. It's all about politics. All bark and no bite. They just send in peacekeepers after the violence.
> Now, wouldn't it be interesting if the Lebs were ranked No2 or No3 in OPEC. I think that the US would have said something alot sooner in terms of a ceasefire (let alone letting israel start with the bombings).





Dannyboy,a bit confusing that,seeing that lebanon under resolution 1559(?)should`ve disarmed hesbollah.If we have to blame America for everything ,we should ask why did`nt America do something through the UN to make sure that the terorrists were in fact disarmed.


----------



## anon (2 August 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> he he, good one Wayne.
> 
> I reckon we'll see something like that in about 20 years when the US and China end up going for it.




That would be WW3.  What's happening now is clash of civilizations.

anon


----------



## noirua (3 August 2006)

The Middle East situation is set to quieten down as all the countries have tie ups with so many others or certain reliances.

Iran are probably pleased, if the truth be told, as Iraq - remember, Iran and Iraq fought an 8 years war - now has the Shia's in power, even if it is very rocky existance. 
The second factor is the smoke screen that has been thrown up over their Uranium objectives.
Russia fought in Afghanistan and the US and allies are doing the job for them. Iran supplied the War Lords in the North of the country in the continued battle against the former leadership, so the jobs being done for them as well. 
Iran has little care for human life really as they sent civilians across the mine field in the war with Iraq. 

Saudi Arabia only protests because they would be seen to be out of line in not doing so. The Taliban and Hesbollah are more of a threat to them than Israel.

Syria needs Iran as this stops Israel, supported by the United States, from attacking them and rooting out, not only hesbollah's support, but Taliban support as well.

As long as peace comes about then the Middle East's hate relationship with Israel can be more normalised, at least for a few more years.


----------



## Prospector (3 August 2006)

And while media attention is focussed on Lebanon and Israel, Iraq continues to implode with many more being killed each day than in Lebanon.  Bush must be liking Israel at the moment and even Condoleeza is the one who is dealing with that issue.


----------



## Sean K (3 August 2006)

noirua said:
			
		

> The Middle East situation is set to quieten down as all the countries have tie ups with so many others or certain reliances.......As long as peace comes about then the Middle East's hate relationship with Israel can be more normalised, at least for a few more years.




Noirua, do you really think there can ever be 'peace', or anything 'normailised' in the Middle East. Perhaps you mean that hating each other is 'normal'?   

It's a sad, sad human world. 

To overcome this feeling of dispare at human beings, I look to nature to try and see the beauty on this amazing planet. It's all great until I see the fish eating smaller fish, lions hunting fawn, and spiders eating each other after sex. Then I realise: hey, this is it! We are one in the same. A bunch of animals going about our daily lives. 

Evil is but one natural phenomenon of the world we live in.


----------



## visual (3 August 2006)

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=783

This is very interesting and from a muslim point of view.Explains a lot ,sadly.


----------



## noirua (3 August 2006)

kennas said:
			
		

> Noirua, do you really think there can ever be 'peace', or anything 'normailised' in the Middle East. Perhaps you mean that hating each other is 'normal'?
> 
> It's a sad, sad human world.
> 
> ...




How long can hate go on? I doubt the English still blame the Italians ( The Roman Empire ) for enslaving its people in the galleys etc., for nearly 400 years.
I believe there are some who still hold a grudge concerning the battles fought with Alexander the Great, 2,500 years or so ago.
The English and French still dislike each other, much of that goes back to the 100 years war. 
A Scotsman is said to have turned down the England Soccer managers job due to the feelings of his countryman over battles with the English fought up to 1,000 years ago.

and so it goes on.

Everyone has anger etc., in their personal history. One member of my family was swindled in the 1870's and I'm still angry about that when it is discussed, once again. 

I think anger and hate have to be accepted and it's a matter of staggering on at times and doing the best possible in the situation.


----------



## visual (3 August 2006)

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null


Hope this works,very ineresting.


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## Sean K (3 August 2006)

A girl after my own heart Vis. Great link.


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## Happy (3 August 2006)

noirua said:
			
		

> How long can hate go on? I doubt the English still blame the Italians ( The Roman Empire ) for enslaving its people in the galleys etc., for nearly 400 years.
> I believe there are some who still hold a grudge concerning the battles fought with Alexander the Great, 2,500 years or so ago.
> The English and French still dislike each other, much of that goes back to the 100 years war.
> A Scotsman is said to have turned down the England Soccer managers job due to the feelings of his countryman over battles with the English fought up to 1,000 years ago.
> ...





Australia could be looked at as role model for grudge-less nation.

We even looked after our Japanese mates in Iraq


----------



## Sean K (3 August 2006)

We did in East Timor too Happy. And their HQ in Suai on the south coast was on the exact same site they used in WWII.


----------



## noirua (3 August 2006)

Happy said:
			
		

> Australia could be looked at as role model for grudge-less nation.
> 
> We even looked after our Japanese mates in Iraq




Yes indeed, and that's after they bombed Darwin in the last World War. There is that bit about Winston Churchill though; Have some still got a grudge over that?


----------



## Rafa (3 August 2006)

noirua said:
			
		

> How long can hate go on?




Very good question... !

Don't know the answer, but i dare say, a long long time... Cause you know what they say, revenge is dish best served cold!

I think all we can do is extend the hand of friendship to people of other races... accepting at the same time, they they do have the weight of history on their shoulders too... (i.e. we can't be forcing people at gun point to integrate... that is just going to back fire). Its only over time, with the mingling of the races that we can become one global race...


But then on kennas' point


> Perhaps you mean that hating each other is 'normal'?




Yeah, i always thought that the only way all humans will unite is if we discover aliens... Then we can all focus our attention on destroying them and taking over their planet!


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## visual (3 August 2006)

Rafa,if you look at the link that I posted you will see that we or the west has hardly anything to do with their hate.
You dont have to go there but ,this opinion comes straight from one of their own.Also you will see that her opposition are just ignorant,uneducated ,ect...


----------



## Rafa (3 August 2006)

well, the thing is visual, its a lot easier to spread hate than it is to spread love... a lot easier to illustrate the bad in people than the good... and once the cycle's started... its pretty darn hard to stop.

you only got to look at the children overboard, etc... and how easily we all believed that asylum seekers threw their kids overboard... and all the negative connotations that went with it, i.e. their all terrorists, etc...


i have no doubt that people in arab lands are being fed complete and utter tripe about us.... no doubt about it... eventually, they will all believe it...


----------



## Rafa (3 August 2006)

Tony Blair today...

THE British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, has called for a fundamental reappraisal of British and US foreign policy, admitting that excessive emphasis on military power and failure to address the Palestinian issue has left the West losing the battle for hearts and minds in the Middle East.

*"We are far from persuading those we need to persuade" that Western values are even-handed, fair and just in their application*, Mr Blair told the World Affairs Council in Los Angeles.

There was no point disguising the damage the war on the Lebanese border was doing to Middle East peace. When the war ends "we must commit ourselves to a complete renaissance of our strategy to defeat those that threaten us".

The only way to defeat the "arc of extremism stretching across the Middle East" was to build an alliance of moderation that painted a future in which people of all faiths could live together. The West had to show it was even-handed, fair and just in applying those values.

"*Unless we reappraise our strategy; unless we revitalise the broader global agenda on poverty, climate change, trade* and, in respect of the Middle East, bend every sinew of our will to making peace between Israel and Palestine, we will not win, and this is a battle we must win."

Mr Blair described the conflict in the Middle East and beyond as "an elemental struggle about the values that will shape our future".

"It is in part a struggle between what I call reactionary Islam and moderate mainstream Islam, but its implications go far wider. *We are fighting a war, but not just against terrorism, but about how the world should govern itself in the early 21st century; about global values*."

He said the battle in Lebanon had been started by Hezbollah. It was intended "to create chaos, division and bloodshed and to provoke retaliation by Israel that would lead to Arab and Muslim opinion being inflamed, not against those who started the aggression, but those who responded to it".


----------



## visual (4 August 2006)

http://www.break.com/index/what_really_happens_pallywood.html

I wonder how much of what we are seeing falls under the pallywood tag,


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> http://www.break.com/index/what_really_happens_pallywood.html
> 
> I wonder how much of what we are seeing falls under the pallywood tag,




Two quotes I heard years ago are relevant here.

"The first casualty of war is truth."

"Never believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

Everything is BS... from both sides.

Cheers


----------



## visual (4 August 2006)

Exactly,thats why I take everything I read and see with a grain of salt.
Have to tell you though its very annoying not being able to trust anybody.Plus its getting to be very tiring ,all these  normal reactions having to be suppressed because ,in all probability you are being taken for a ride by someone who is actually relying on those emotions.


----------



## visual (7 August 2006)

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/qana-directors-cut.html

Would I agree to the death penalty under these circumstances,YES.
These people deserve every bomb Israel can throw at them,I truly hope that there is a heaven with a loving God in heaven because these innocent victims truly deserve to be there.


----------



## noirua (7 August 2006)

I can't solve the worlds problems, only try to write a few poems and songs. As my old mate says: Denis we are but grains of sand. - Denis Kevans, poet and writer.


----------



## the_godfather4 (7 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> http://www.break.com/index/what_really_happens_pallywood.html
> 
> I wonder how much of what we are seeing falls under the pallywood tag,




I must agree that its pretty irritating stuff  

Not sure if anyone has seen that movie "Wag the Dog" with Robert DeNiro & Dustin Hoffman......deals with just this sort of thing  (highly recommended)

Its a sad fact of life that the viewing public can be manipulated so easily.....I suppose it all comes down to who has the biggest budget and biggest audience


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (8 August 2006)

For the Hezbollah sympathisers:

"The Christian Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE has charged that Hizballah staged the entire incident in order to stimulate calls for a ceasefire, thereby staving off its destruction by Israel and Lebanese plans to rid themselves of this terrorist plague: “We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora’s plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations. Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative.” 


http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/1691-Evidence-Mounts-that-Kana-Massacre-Was-a-Fake.html

"Hide behind skirts and children" go hezzies!


----------



## wayneL (8 August 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> For the Hezbollah sympathisers:




Snake 

I don't see any evidence of hezbollah sympathizers here in spite of accusations to the contrary.

Tarring Israel with the same brush as Hezbollah does not imply support for Hezbollah. Those who have been critical of Israel (including myself) have been careful to point that out. I personally have repeated _ad nauseum_ that there are no white hats; both sides are terrorists. I cannot get any clearer than that, and nor can anyone else

Refusing to fall for western propaganda does not imply support for Hezbollah either.

However, I wonder about the emotional state of those whose support for Israel is explicit in rejecting Hezbollah, without rational analysis of the actions of the former... tribalistic nonsense appropriate for soccer games, but not when it come to the obliteration of countries and poulations. 

Some here will not be happy unless there is complete support for Isreal to perform a comprehensive genocide of every moselm on planet earth. (pardon the hyberbole) Sad stuff.

Now, of course you may hold those views if you wish, this is still a free country for a little while longer. But it would be appreciated if there is respect for other points of view as well an what is a stock trading forum.

There is plenty of scope to really get into these issues on other political forums and I invite you to do so there.

Cheers


----------



## noirua (8 August 2006)

The following link gives some idea of how it was having to live amongst the bombs: http://www.1940.co.uk/history/sound/sound.htm


----------



## visual (8 August 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> However, I wonder about the emotional state of those whose support for Israel is explicit in rejecting Hezbollah, without rational analysis of the actions of the former... tribalistic nonsense appropriate for soccer games, but not when it come to the obliteration of countries and poulations.
> 
> Some here will not be happy unless there is complete support for Isreal to perform a comprehensive genocide of every moselm on planet earth. (pardon the hyberbole) Sad stuff.
> 
> ...




Wayne,
did you watch four corners last night?
the story of the sixteen year old Iranian girl ,hanged for crimes against chastity,we called these rape.
No where in that report did you even get the feeling that especially women had a breathing space.
So I find it to put it mildly,interesting that in the west there are so many people fighting for these subhumans to get a foot hold anywhere else.I don`t think genocide is the answer,however muslims are quite happy and willing to use their own people for shredding ,therefore create their own genocide if need be to attain whatever their aim is.And their aim is not a very nice one,especially for women.

Inside these countries,everyday people are fighting for some breathing space,yet in the west we tell them these lack of fredooms that we take for granted are not part of their culture .I constantly get the idea that if they could be heard on the same scale as us they would disagree loudly.

So Wayne what are the chances that even in south lebanon you haven`t got people screaming whatever it takes,get these bastards out of our lifes.

Today for example Dean Jones was sacked to calling a devout muslim a terrorist,I`m not condoning that type of behaviour but Wayne when was the last time that a muslim was sacked or replaced or apologised for saying horrible things about us,what you get are lies and "oh,I was misintrepeted"
rubbish and of course they trot out the true and tried islam is a religion of peace,unless of course you are American or Jewish,or Christian or whatever.


----------



## noirua (8 August 2006)

kitehigh said:
			
		

> I don't know where you got your info in regards to the aircraft boming lebanon, refueling at Glasgow. Thats just sounds plain wrong.  Israel doesn't have long range strategic bombers.  I think you have it mixed up with the transport planes that are flying in the smart bombs from America on route to Israel.
> It is a crazy world though that we live in, where one country gives aid with one hand to ease the pain and suffering and then supplies the weapons to the other country to bring about the same that very same suffering.





The following Link in the Scottish Sunday Mail shows that Israel's aircraft refuelled at Glasgow Prestwick Airport:  http://www.Sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm...&headline=exclusive--bombshell-name_page.html


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (8 August 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Snake
> 
> I don't see any evidence of hezbollah sympathizers here in spite of accusations to the contrary.
> 
> ...




Well it is loud and clear that I cannot have an opinion, or simply post a link, according to WL. As I have stated before opinions are fine.  Indirectcly I addressed the post to Hezbollah sympathisers, not directly to anyone on the forum. If I had done I would have named names.

Yes tribalistic nonsense is what the west is dealing with. 

Propaganda? Believe what you will. It`s coming from the Hezzies too.

Now Wayne, your post indicates that I may like the genocide of every moselom on Earth. That is wrong and represents what I don`t. Take care in your comments, and I trust you won`t slip again; is that clear?  

So general chat is now restricted in its content? Though you a moderator continuously post political threads.  :bowdown: Hmmm....


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (8 August 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Wayne,
> did you watch four corners last night?
> the story of the sixteen year old Iranian girl ,hanged for crimes against chastity,we called these rape.
> No where in that report did you even get the feeling that especially women had a breathing space.
> ...




Visual,

Thanks for that material. Those in denial don`t realise this.

Islamic thinking and western thinking don`t mix or are not translatable. When most understand this, they will be on their way to understanding the enemy better. Take this for example:



> “Lying is forbidden unless it is for necessity. In that case, the principle “necessity makes the unlawful permissible” applies. (…) Some of these acceptable lies is what we call connotation, a word carrying a double meaning. The Muslim may use the positive not the negative interpretation of the word.”
> 
> Robert Spencer , who gives examples of this in his book “Onward Muslim Soldiers,” confirms this:
> 
> “Religious deception of unbelievers is indeed taught by the Qur'an itself: “Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them” (Qur'an 3:28). In other words, don't make friends with unbelievers except to “guard yourselves from them”: pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them.  The distinguished Qur'anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that this verse teaches that if “believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers,” they may “show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly.”




...from the islamic dictionary for infidels.


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## wayneL (8 August 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Well it is loud and clear that I cannot have an opinion, or simply post a link, according to WL. As I have stated before opinions are fine.  Indirectcly I addressed the post to Hezbollah sympathisers, not directly to anyone on the forum. If I had done I would have named names.
> 
> Yes tribalistic nonsense is what the west is dealing with.
> 
> ...




Bullsh!t Snake

I have not moderated any political threads except when there is palpable condescension based on misrepresentation of what is said. Are not ALL your posts intact? Give me a break!!! 

That your post was indeed like I describe above is not a debatable point, so lay off. DO NOT MISREPRESENT WAHAT I SAY! IS THAT CLEAR?

I trust you won`t slip again


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## Ageo (8 August 2006)

uh oh the bear is getting angry!


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## swingstar (8 August 2006)

Ageo said:
			
		

> uh oh the bear is getting angry!




Today's silly 50 point hike is certainly disappointing.


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## wayneL (8 August 2006)

Ageo said:
			
		

> uh oh the bear is getting angry!




Do you have something to add or just more schoolyard BS?


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## Ageo (8 August 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Do you have something to add or just more schoolyard BS?





lol sorry wayne, just **** stirring.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (9 August 2006)

Wayne,

Please don`t get too stressed.  



> I have not moderated any political threads except when there is palpable condescension based on misrepresentation of what is said. Are not ALL your posts intact? Give me a break!!!




Your moderation is not in question. 



> That your post was indeed like I describe above is not a debatable point, so lay off. DO NOT MISREPRESENT WAHAT I SAY! IS THAT CLEAR?




I`ll address pertinent points of interest relevant to me or the thread in question compliant with the code of conduct. For the record I never intentionally misrepresent content.   

Thanks 
Pliskin


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## wayneL (9 August 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> I`ll address pertinent points of interest relevant to me or the thread in question compliant with the code of conduct. For the record I never intentionally misrepresent content.
> 
> Thanks
> Pliskin




That's fair enough Snake. Continue on.

Cheers


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## Bobby (9 August 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> That's fair enough Snake. Continue on.
> 
> Cheers



 Wayne you & the Snake are dear to me, if a third party had attacked either of you with something I didn't agree, then they would suffer my fury.

Take Care - Both of you.
Bob.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (9 August 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Wayne you & the Snake are dear to me, if a third party had attacked either of you with something I didn't agree, then they would suffer my fury.
> 
> Take Care - Both of you.
> Bob.




I must admit Bob`s posts do brighten my day. 

You take care too Bob, and Wayne.


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## wayneL (9 August 2006)

Ahhh...

Let's all hold hands  

Cheers


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## Bobby (9 August 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Ahhh...
> 
> Let's all hold hands
> 
> Cheers




*Yep lets,* '  

Apologizes to the poofters as we are not ! : 

Bob.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (9 August 2006)

Just made it Bob.

Wow, Wayne your hands are so soft and warm. What cream do you use? I got to get me some.   And Bob yours are just fine. :


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## Bobby (9 August 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Just made it Bob.
> 
> Wow, Wayne your hands are so soft and warm. What cream do you use? I got to get me some.   And Bob yours are just fine. :




We use soap


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## wayneL (9 August 2006)

Snake Pliskin said:
			
		

> Just made it Bob.
> 
> Wow, Wayne your hands are so soft and warm. What cream do you use? I got to get me some.   And Bob yours are just fine. :




Thats what mrs tells me too : 

No cream, just avoidance of chores....mrs notices that as well


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## Bobby (9 August 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Thats what mrs tells me too :
> 
> No cream, just avoidance of chores....mrs notices that as well




Wayne sounds like you have good MRS, lucky you.
Must go to bed now, you too I hope !

Regards bob.


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## noirua (1 August 2013)

Note, last post was nearly 7 years ago.

Perhaps evil succeeds because many sit around expecting someone else to act first: 'Callous' Mother And Stepfather Convicted Of Murdering Four-Year-Old Daniel Pelka
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...id=maing-grid7|ukt4|dl1|sec1_lnk3&pLid=198425


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## noirua (3 August 2013)

noirua said:


> Note, last post was nearly 7 years ago.
> 
> Perhaps evil succeeds because many sit around expecting someone else to act first: 'Callous' Mother And Stepfather Convicted Of Murdering Four-Year-Old Daniel Pelka
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...id=maing-grid7|ukt4|dl1|sec1_lnk3&pLid=198425




Daniel Pelka's mother and stepfather jailed for 30 years each - Parentdish UK
http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2013/08...id=maing-grid7|ukt3|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=198876


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