# You're not smart enough



## Trembling Hand (24 May 2008)

Now I have your attention the thread should be named "Your not smart enough for short Cuts because its not what counts"

From a discussion in the Beginners - Introduce yourselves!  thread I thought I would start a discussion about something that I have always found a little strange. *Why reasonable smart and logical people apply thinking that in my experience is illogical and must be unique to the trading field.* It seems that the thinking and process of "I'm a sharp cookie at XYZ therefore I can jump in live with hard earned money and go up against pros and succeed" is unique to trading only. 

If that logic is fine then it should work in reverse. That is a Pro trader should be able to jump in "live" at another profession. I have made some good money the last couple of years trading so does anyone want me to build them a house, run a school or perform open heart surgery????????

How much sense would it be for the surgeon to jump to Pro musician in 3 months of dubious training. Or the Builder to turn to electrician with 3 months of reading how-to become a sparkie journal's. It would be madness. YET thats is exactly how I would say 99% of people come to trading. They spend a couple of months "learning" the trade. And then get in all sorts of bother because they find it hard. I say WTF did you expect. *Where or what else can you succeed at without a long and structured curriculum to acquire skills and correct processes?*

No wonder a whole sub-industry has sprung up about trading psychology. When what is really needed is more SKILLS through correct development and feedback.

You obviously need some level of intelligence and motivation which success in one field may be an indication of possible success in another field but its the learning process that makes the diff in the end to those that have a chance (ability). In no other field outside of trading/investing does one try their hand at the task "live" without a LONG training period. Think surgery, nope years learning. Musician nope 10 years before they stand next to pro and perform. Sports, nope start in the back yard then junior sports then elite amateur then pro. Again about 10 years. Apprentice trade, you would never give an apprentice the hammer and saw to build a house without 3 years or probably more of supervision. Chess, same a period of learning against better and better opposition not grandmasters after 3 months.

The same should be for trading. What has the Musician, Surgeon, Pro sports person, Apprentice and Chess players all had before they went "live". Progressively harder *results* in simulation. The same should be for trading. No money down until you have results without risking real cash. No playing with the Pros until you have a positive expectancy system on sim or back-test. A "trading plan" is rubbish without the skills to go with it. And you only get the skills with progressive practice.


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## Trembling Hand (24 May 2008)

*Re: Your not smart enough.*

If you do want a good guide as to how to go about getting the skills I reckon this books a good start.

http://www.moneybags.com.au/default.asp?d=0&t=1&id=5203&c=15&a=74


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## stockGURU (24 May 2008)

*Re: Your not smart enough*



Trembling Hand said:


> Now I have your attention the thread should be named "Your not smart enough for short Cuts because its not what counts"




Actually it should be named "*You're* not smart enough" LOL!


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## justjohn (24 May 2008)

*Re: Your not smart enough*

How about ''use are dumb'' or for our Kiwi members ''ewes are dumb'':


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## njc.corp (24 May 2008)

*Re: Your not smart enough*

i agree with the above comments-but the people we are talking about-are they making money or slowly eating away-

i think its mainly mind over matter-

if u think u are ahead of the game because u are good at a other trade u got it coming-

as a business owner and operator x2- i will say trading is the hardest thing i have ever done(and sometimes i wonder why i got in-but i really enjoy doing it on the side--its so bloody hard to make a $$ or gain a % here or their-

to me if u got the wrong attitude u are going down baby-i have seen 1 case and 1 case only and that was enough- to scare me of what can happen when u think u know everything-

i have always wanted to know why u can't help someone at the start-u can only help them on the way down or right at the end-and sometimes its not to late-



Thanks

Nick--


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## Wysiwyg (24 May 2008)

Trembling hand, I would like your opinion.

I find more often than not, no matter what decision I make, it is wrong for me.(not the desired outcome)
Using all my experience from similar situations doesn`t mean anything because the outcomes are always different.Which to me means there is no way of knowing what will happen next, so clearing any preconceived idea of what will happen next maybe the best way to go.What do you think about that?





.


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## awg (24 May 2008)

I have got a few remarks.

I just started day trading on 6th May.

I joined ASF in Sept 07, to try and learn to day trade in my new SMSF.

I have 15 years investing experience, and had bought and sold shares online, but never day traded.

I have been studying for 8 months. Reading books and trawling ASF.

TH and Tech_A posts in particular have been informative.

TH posted that day trading reduces your overall risk IF DONE PROPERLY.


I had a very bizarre start to my day trading experiences.

My first stock was LNC up  100% on the day.

I also traded EPS up 350% then halted. ( came back on down 40%, I was out)

LMP also up over 100% on the day.



I am trying to analyse how i manged the trades now. (some good, some poorly) 

I dont think that sort of situation is likely to occur very often.

so strange, i learnt a lot from this, especially how lamentable my setup is.
(=missed profits)

did make enough to pay for a laptop, intra-day data and software of my choice, just trading 5k to 10k lots, in 2 weeks. 

I consider this to be mainly due to luck, but i did work very hard, and u know what they say.

I agree with TH that u should have a good trading plan, before u start.
the better the better.

I now intend to do just as advised. I wont be doing so much day trading, until my systems are better. I am mainly a long-term investor anyway.

I also found out that being glued to my screen all day bought back bad memories of past jobs.

I would say, that I dont believe most people would have the ability to develop a good trading plan, prior to having quite extensive exposure to a trading learning environment of some kind ( probably 97%

regards tony

)


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## pilbara (24 May 2008)

Hi TH, I agree with something you posted in another thread about a skill that's crucial to trading success:

_"I don't use indicators. Price and volume (and there patterns) is all I'm interested in." _

It has taken me many months of staring at the screen, looking at bid/ask prices, volumes and graphs, to become familiar with the patterns which predict imminent danger or reward.  

It takes a long while to become familiar with what is happening.  Once you have this instinctive awareness then you can make decisions with confidence, and without relying on backward-looking indicators.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (24 May 2008)

pilbara said:


> Hi TH, I agree with something you posted in another thread about a skill that's crucial to trading success:
> 
> _"I don't use indicators. Price and volume (and there patterns) is all I'm interested in." _
> 
> ...




Indicator users usually shift from that position to a "I ONLY LOOK AT PRICE" position which highlights a total BIAS that could be very costly. Indicators use PRICE. IF you understand them then they can benefit. Trading purely by them is MANIACAL though.

What needs to be taken into consideration is NOISE which totally makes PRICE only reading that much harder. Not to mention the F/A that when ignored could bite big time.

I was watching TSE for a play recently and then came the big drop. What the f...?   Lucky I hadn't taken a positon. It turned out the greater influence of the unknown dictated the direction.(a drop in profit or something to that effect) So much for PRICE only.

Nice pick up on the grammar StockGuru.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (24 May 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Trembling hand, I would like your opinion.
> 
> I find more often than not, no matter what decision I make, it is wrong for me.(not the desired outcome)
> Using all my experience from similar situations doesn`t mean anything because the outcomes are always different.Which to me means there is no way of knowing what will happen next, so clearing any preconceived idea of what will happen next maybe the best way to go.What do you think about that?
> .




The problem I have with people comparing TRADING to other things such as CHESS or TENNIS is that TRADING is far different in that the outcome is out of our control in a pradoxical way. So I rephrase that with "desired outcome".

In my example with TSE I was expecting a forehand but someone in the crowd came in and hit an overhead slam. Where did that come from? 

I think you get my point.


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## Timmy (24 May 2008)

Hi Snake - aren't we discussing comparing learning to trade with learning to play chess/tennis whatever?  Not actually comparing trading, but the procedure for learning trading?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (24 May 2008)

Timmy said:


> Hi Snake - aren't we discussing comparing learning to trade with learning to play chess/tennis whatever?  Not actually comparing trading, but the procedure for learning trading?




Timmy,

I guess I have missed the point. Perhaps learn to trade instead of using other sports etc. to foster learning.


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## Wysiwyg (24 May 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> In my example with TSE I was expecting a forehand but someone in the crowd came in and hit an overhead slam. Where did that come from?
> 
> I think you get my point.




Yes that is what i mean.The outcome could be influenced by a large holder which triggers the majority or some news that triggers the majority.A constant battle of forwards and backwards. 
Majority rules apply.


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## theasxgorilla (24 May 2008)

I prefer the cricket analogy myself.

"I've always really liked cricket.  I've always felt that it is something I would really like to start doing properly one day.  So I went on this website where all these smart guys which knew about cricket were and learned what kind of bat I should have, and about all the protective gear too.  I went to one of the websites they recommended and ordered all this gear, and got it delivered, and it arrived within a week...pretty cool, eh?  That was in May last year.  I've been practising with a ball in a sock hung from the roof of my patio every day now for over a year.  And with my mate Robbo every other day down in the nets at the local park.  And by next summer I expect to have an appointment with a Mr B Lee in the centre of the MCG...wish me luck everyone" :


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## tech/a (24 May 2008)

Personally I think people with a Business/Accounting/Budgeting type background have an edge.
People who know how to quantify risk and importantly know how to make a decisive decision while running flat out---also have an edge.

A decent base capital doesn't go astray either.

Procrastinators will be eaten alive.


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## Trembling Hand (24 May 2008)

*Re: Your not smart enough*



stockGURU said:


> Actually it should be named "*You're* not smart enough" LOL!




Me so dumb :bonk:


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## peter2 (24 May 2008)

One reason why people that are successful in one endeavour have difficulty becoming successful in trading could be due to them overlooking the years of learning, effort and experience that they  gained in order to be successful. They wouldn't forget that they started at the bottom and worked their way up, but now that they are successful, their business or endeavour is easily maintained with minimal effort.

Not many realise that trading is a very competitive business. Not only do they want to start trading at the top level, they assume that they only need put in a minimal effort to be successful. 

Only the few with ambition and motivation to work towards their trading goals will get there.


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## Trembling Hand (25 May 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> I find more often than not, no matter what decision I make, it is wrong for me.(not the desired outcome)
> Using all my experience from similar situations doesn`t mean anything because the outcomes are always different.Which to me means there is no way of knowing what will happen next, so clearing any preconceived idea of what will happen next maybe the best way to go.What do you think about that?




That's rubbish. If you don't know the average outcome before you take the next 10 or 100 trades then you shouldn't be taking them. True the next 10 or 100 trades could individually do anything but if you don't KNOW what your average expectations are over that period, or how you will handle the ones that don't fit your expectations then you are throwing darts blind at a moving dartboard hanging upside down while receiving the cucumber rumba!!





tech/a said:


> Personally I think people with a Business/Accounting/Budgeting type background have an edge.



 Maybe an edge but still not a reason to jump in without first developing and training that edge.



tech/a said:


> People who know how to quantify risk and importantly know how to make a decisive decision while running flat out---also have an edge.



Like people that are good at playing computer games? Which is what a Prop shop looks like.


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## Awesomandy (25 May 2008)

It's ok. It's only money. If people want to lose their hard earned the hard way, let them. Besides, someone's losses are someone else's gains.


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## tech/a (25 May 2008)

Whoeever decides that they would like to be involved in trading,will have to start at some point.

I certainly agree that is its un wise to jump in the deep end.
Those that do will ultimately realise how unwise it was.

Most follow this path.
Few get on the freeway.


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## awg (25 May 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> That's rubbish. If you don't know the average outcome before you take the next 10 or 100 trades then you shouldn't be taking them. True the next 10 or 100 trades could individually do anything but if you don't KNOW what your average expectations are over that period, or how you will handle the ones that don't fit your expectations then you are throwing darts blind at a moving dartboard hanging upside down while receiving the cucumber rumba!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hi TH,
         So are you saying out & out, dont even TRY trading until one has a FULLY developed and tested system??



I know you said in another thread words to the effect it cost you about $80k before you became fully profitable.

I am extremely interested in knowing how long you believe it took you in retrospect to be a satisfactory trader

I have developed some plans, largely modeled on the work of others that went before me. The level of understanding that is required to fully develop and test plans of ones own is fairly high 

because i am a novice, development is a steep curve.

my next step is to fully test my systems on proprietry software.

i reckon this might take me 12 months minimum, just for the basics.

it certainly is a stage that sorts the sheep from the grubs

as has been mentioned numerous times, one has to get a feel for what instrument and methodology is suitable for the self.

regards tony


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## farout (25 May 2008)

Going back some 10 odd years I lost close to everything I had invested. I must admit I was a little unlucky in choosing both MIM & PAS. Fortunately I had only invested about $8k, but seemed like a lot of money back then. Perhaps I was one of those people you are talking about.

Having that loss certainly gave me a reality check and I have been closely watching market movements ever since. I would still class myself a high-risk high-reward trader, somewhat of an educated 'all-in' gambler. 

In hindsight I probably wouldn't recommend people take the risks I have, however my current well paid job gives me some security.

Two and a half years ago I invested $20k, which performed so well I decided to sell my car and invest another $20k. Trading capital of $40k. Seems stupid to sell your car to fund trading right? Well, it is the smartest move I ever made. Since then I have probably added in another $10k.

I am well on the way to turning that initial $50k outlay into a portfolio worth in the vicinity of $1mill. 

Do I have any tips? 
Your money has to be accumulating, if it isn't then move it elsewhere.
Don't trade like me unless you can afford to lose it.
Your car doesn't earn you money 

Now that I have made my money I plan on downgrading my risk. Decreased risk trades & real estate is on the future agenda. 

Hope that wasn't too much of a waffle or a 'look at me' speech. Happy to accept some trading-style criticism


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## Trembling Hand (25 May 2008)

awg said:


> So are you saying out & out, dont even TRY trading until one has a FULLY developed and tested system??
> 
> I know you said in another thread words to the effect it cost you about $80k before you became fully profitable.




Yes I'm saying that if you don't know how to trade don't assume you will be able to cut it with anything less than what it takes in other endeavors. 

And I was meaning to put yesterday but ran out of time that this is well and truly a hind site view. But after I lost my first $20,000  it started to dawn on me that just because I had found it easy at growing a couple of biz' that that success was in noway a guarantee to trading success. Which from that time made me think what is it about trading that enables people to ably silly logic, logic that is unique to the trading field. A field that is probably the hardest one out there to sustain success.


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## Michael9 (25 May 2008)

Sometimes it's useful to use the term craft rather than skill. People who are eventually exceptional at what they do; say a top surfer or carpenter, have internalised what they do to the point of apparent efforlessness  For them it's is all about feel. (Top surfers get dumped too though!)  In teaching the best practitioners generally labour at it not at all. They read the micro signals from the group and respond before the group develops negative momentum. In trading I read about traders who've, in the end, thrown away the indicators (or all but a few) and just follow the ticks. That's analogous here.
NLP teaches us that we all chunk down the world into a manageable data stream and in that process we each end up living a unique reality. No generic style or method is going to work for an individual trader.  For me it's going to be two to three years before I get any reliable feel for the business. At the moment though I just need a few more glimmers on the horizon!
Trembling Hand thanks for the book recommendation, also ... "deliberative practise"?


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## Michael9 (25 May 2008)

I've got it now. Deliberative practise is a performance feedback loop that constantly improves the outcome. (I know that because that's why my lacrosse coach used to seem all spiteful and mean at times.) 

Like the Japaneses Kaizen used in management and leadership constructs.


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## jersey10 (25 May 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Now I have your attention the thread should be named "Your not smart enough for short Cuts because its not what counts"
> 
> From a discussion in the Beginners - Introduce yourselves!  thread I thought I would start a discussion about something that I have always found a little strange. *Why reasonable smart and logical people apply thinking that in my experience is illogical and must be unique to the trading field.* It seems that the thinking and process of "I'm a sharp cookie at XYZ therefore I can jump in live with hard earned money and go up against pros and succeed" is unique to trading only.
> 
> ...





TH,

Would like to get your opinion on the following question.  In order to become a consistently 'good' trader, how much depends on the personality of the person and how much depends on the training / study they do?

Jersey10


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## Trembling Hand (25 May 2008)

jersey10 said:


> In order to become a consistently 'good' trader, how much depends on the personality of the person and how much depends on the training / study they do?




To that question my answer is always the same. Success comes with the right blend of personality, market niche and practise.

But I never believe that "a" personalty is the difference in success or not. Study after study have shown the difference in elite performance and also ran is time spent practising/research/coaching etc.

With that said does it take a certain personality to engage in that practising/research/coaching etc???????????? No idea, maybe. But I would think if you carn't do the work then you probably haven't found your niche and therefore not yet in a state of FLOW.


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## IFocus (25 May 2008)

Great thread TH where were you 10 years ago........

When starting out I though I more than had the smarts, market decided otherwise.

The bit I struggled with was understanding / changing my behaviors, once I got that I made progress.

I see others compare trading or learning to with other endeavors which has merit but will not fix the bit how new traders relate to money.


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## Mike Of Hobart (25 May 2008)

This is a great thread. 

One quality I've noticed in alot of successful traders is an immense humility. These are people who have complete control over their ego. Happy to admit they were wrong, happy to admit they need to learn more, happy to admit they have limitations.

Whether this is a quality that is learned or somehow innate is another question of course. 

The really tricky thing is that in the "real world" people often become successful by denying their limitations and letting their egos run riot. I guess this is one reason that the translation from business success to trading success often ends in failure.


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## farout (25 May 2008)

Well said Mike, one of the most intelligent things I've read today. Keep the informative posts coming


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## njc.corp (25 May 2008)

does the word choice make a impact in this thread-

like do the eveyday traders make the wrong choice without understainding the true meaning of the word choice?

???

Thanks

Nick--


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## theasxgorilla (25 May 2008)

Mike Of Hobart said:


> The really tricky thing is that in the "real world" people often become successful by denying their limitations and letting their egos run riot. I guess this is one reason that the translation from business success to trading success often ends in failure.




Wow.  Sincerely, very insightful IM*H*O.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (25 May 2008)

theasxgorilla said:


> I prefer the cricket analogy myself.
> 
> "I've always really liked cricket.  I've always felt that it is something I would really like to start doing properly one day.  So I went on this website where all these smart guys which knew about cricket were and learned what kind of bat I should have, and about all the protective gear too.  I went to one of the websites they recommended and ordered all this gear, and got it delivered, and it arrived within a week...pretty cool, eh?  That was in May last year.  I've been practising with a ball in a sock hung from the roof of my patio every day now for over a year.  And with my mate Robbo every other day down in the nets at the local park.  And by next summer I expect to have an appointment with a Mr B Lee in the centre of the MCG...wish me luck everyone" :




I like the analogy asx! And Robbo how Australian.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (25 May 2008)

tech/a said:


> Personally I think people with a Business/Accounting/Budgeting type background have an edge.
> People who know how to quantify risk and importantly know how to make a decisive decision while running flat out---also have an edge.
> 
> A decent base capital doesn't go astray either.
> ...




Hi tech/a,

I agree on the procrastination part. 

I don't agree on the first part. I would more like to put it "survivalists".


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## njc.corp (25 May 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Hi tech/a,
> 
> I agree on the procrastination part.
> 
> I don't agree on the first part. I would more like to put it "survivalists".




snake- i would like your view on the  part u don't agree-whats wrong with a soild background in any workforce thats has had its ups and downs

not having a go-just want to understand where u are coming from-

Thanks

Nick--


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## It's Snake Pliskin (26 May 2008)

njc.corp said:


> snake- i would like your view on the  part u don't agree-whats wrong with a soild background in any workforce thats has had its ups and downs
> 
> not having a go-just want to understand where u are coming from-
> 
> ...




Nick,

I don't use the word "any". 

A solid background in something is good for anything in life but does not mean it can be applied to something else. More a natural instinct to take something up easily with a lot of work. Survival of the fittest. 

Success in one field does not equate success in another. 

With regard to tech/a's comments the risk aware mindset I do agree with.

But I may be wrong and if someone has the answers I would love to know, though suspect they may be contextual.


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## tech/a (26 May 2008)

Snake.

Agree certain attributes doesnt guarentee success.
However certain attributes should give those with them an understanding of what is required to "run the business" of trading.

Its said that professional people like Doctors,Scientists etc make terrible traders because they need definative results,results that can be quantified,being right takes more precident than the art of trading.

They tend to be wrong longer than those who understand being wrong in analysis (any type of analysis) is all part of the trading process.
What you do when your right and what you do when your wrong plays a most important role.


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## njc.corp (26 May 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Nick,
> 
> I don't use the word "any".
> 
> ...




snake-thanks for the reply back-

maybe i was not clear-

this fact-is based on me only- as a business owner it makes it easy for me to enter the  market that has risk-

i know what risk is as i have had ups and downs and bad business choices-(and am ready for twice the amount of down's because  i cant tell and don't want to know the future of the market as this is a new ball game for me)

i must agree and say  that it wont make me a sucess story as its too early for me to even think about it-

but the entry of risk is easy for me-which i know  makes it good-because this is  what i have learnt about my business-

i  had to start my first business 3 times before i made it become good-(and still trying for new idea's and different directions)

my second business took me 2 go's and so on-(still trying for new idea's and different directions)

but i am not treating the market as my business as i cant control the market- the only thing i can control is how much money it takes from me-

Thanks

Nick--


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## MRC & Co (26 May 2008)

tech/a said:


> Its said that professional people like Doctors,Scientists etc make terrible traders because they need definative results,results that can be quantified,being right takes more precident than the art of trading.
> 
> They tend to be wrong longer than those who understand being wrong in analysis (any type of analysis) is all part of the trading process.
> What you do when your right and what you do when your wrong plays a most important role.




I know a world class orthadontist (spelling) who is at the head of his field.

He started trading and as soon as his stop was hit, he couldn't handle it, thought it would turn around and so bought back in.  Needless to say, it didn't take long until he blew up his account and gave up trading.......for now!


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## Timmy (28 May 2008)

This is a great thread, thanks for starting it TH.

There seems to be some good questions about how much of a role 'personality' plays in becoming a successful trader.  TH, you asked if it takes a certain type of personality to actually engage in the research/practise/coaching in order to get successful .... I am way out of my depth here but I think there may be some helpful points made in this post by Sails from earlier in the year.  There are some links to very interesting articles about 







sails said:


> how mindset can affect learning – explaining how brilliant minds or those with natural talent can be stunted by the wrong mindset and how those struggling can use the right mindset to achieve results that otherwise may not happen.




I think reading the links in Sails' post and combining the findings with those about deliberative effort is not a bad road to be on?


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## Trembling Hand (28 May 2008)

Good one Timmy. This links right in and is very interesting.



> Through more than three decades of systematic research, she has been figuring out answers to why some people achieve their potential while equally talented others don’t.............The key, she found, isn’t ability; it’s whether you look at ability as something inherent that needs to be demonstrated or as something that can be developed.




Even more interesting is 



> ..zest for challenge helped explain why other capable students thought they lacked ability just because they’d hit a setback. Common sense suggests that ability inspires self-confidence. And it does for a while—so long as the going is easy. But setbacks change everything. Dweck realized—and, with colleague Elaine Elliott soon demonstrated—that the difference lay in the kids’ goals. “The mastery-oriented children are really hell-bent on learning something,” Dweck says, and “learning goals” inspire a different chain of thoughts and behaviors than “performance goals.”




Which leads in a nice loop back to the mindset actually being trained through practice to help learning, 



> The most dramatic proof comes from a recent study by Dweck and Lisa Sorich Blackwell of low-achieving seventh graders. All students participated in sessions on study skills, the brain and the like; in addition, one group attended a neutral session on memory while the other learned that intelligence, like a muscle, grows stronger through exercise. Training students to adopt a growth mind-set about intelligence had a catalytic effect on motivation and math grades; students in the control group showed no improvement despite all the other interventions.
> 
> “Study skills and learning skills are inert until they’re powered by an active ingredient,” Dweck explains. Students may know how to study, but won’t want to if they believe their efforts are futile. “If you target that belief, you can see more benefit than you have any reason to hope for.”



http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2007/marapr/features/dweck.html

Love it!


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## sails (28 May 2008)

Timmy said:


> ...I think reading the links in Sails' post and combining the findings with those about deliberative effort is not a bad road to be on?




I have an 8 yr old granddaughter who has been struggling at school since she started in Grade 1.  Sadly, she believed she was dumb and it was difficult to motivate her.  

However, after reading that article, I have been relentless in my attempts to inspire her and have explained that the brain is like a muscle and will improve with effort.  

The changes have been incredible - she now regularly gets 100% for her spelling tests each week and she is steaming ahead in all her subjects not to mention the improvement in her self esteem and confidence.

Thought I would share this as it has certainly confirmed in my mind the value of that article and how much our mindsets can affect us.


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## Rockhoundnz (29 May 2008)

I agree with a lot of what TH has to say here. Although I think that the analytical skills and psychology that a successful trader uses are both things that can be learnt with practice. I don't think you can succeed without both. This video from Alex Wasilewski (head trader and co-founder of Puretick) sums up nicely what it takes to become a successful trader:

http://www.puretick.com/video/thetruth

Here's how long it took some smart and determined people to become profitable:

Linda Raschke - 3 years
John Carter - 4 years
Mark Fisher - 3 years
Hubert Senters - 2 years sitting by the side of an experienced trader before trading

Some food for thought eh?


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## tcoates (29 May 2008)

> Here's how long it took some smart and determined people to become profitable:
> 
> Linda Raschke - 3 years
> John Carter - 4 years
> ...



Ahhh.... there's hope for me yet

And I did watch the video. Not bad.

Tim


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## Timmy (29 May 2008)

Rockhoundnz said:


> Here's how long it took some smart and determined people to become profitable:




Nothing wrong with taking time to do it right...


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## Timmy (29 May 2008)

sails said:


> I have an 8 yr old granddaughter who has been struggling at school since she started in Grade 1.  Sadly, she believed she was dumb and it was difficult to motivate her.
> 
> However, after reading that article, I have been relentless in my attempts to inspire her and have explained that the brain is like a muscle and will improve with effort.
> 
> ...




Good stuff Sails - I have started on this path with my children too (and on me )


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## Michael9 (31 May 2008)

Great stuff Sails. Confidence is a strong platform for taking the risks and coping the mistakes that precede progress. An encouraging relationship is critical. None of us would have ever learned to walk or talk if we were simply corrected at every stumble and stutter. Feels good too when you see the smiles and that quiet intent as the next challenge emerges.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (3 June 2008)

Rockhoundnz said:


> I agree with a lot of what TH has to say here. Although I think that the analytical skills and psychology that a successful trader uses are both things that can be learnt with practice. I don't think you can succeed without both. This video from Alex Wasilewski (head trader and co-founder of Puretick) sums up nicely what it takes to become a successful trader:
> 
> http://www.puretick.com/video/thetruth
> 
> ...




Thanks for posting the link. 

I believe Rashke lost a lot at one stage too, I read.


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## Timmy (5 July 2008)

TH has referred to Brett Steenbarger's book Enhancing Trader Performance and highly recommends it.

This is a link to quite a long presentation on the book.

Link.

The presentation is not solely about Steenbarger's book, much of it links in the presenter's use of Market Profile with the theme of Steenbarger's book, that is the lessons of the book are presented in the context of learning the Market Profile method.  It is not necessary, though, to have a clue about MP, or even to want to have a clue about MP, to benefit from Steenbarger's book.  Keep this in mind when viewing the presentation.

BTW I am posting the link but have no links to or even any experience with the person and organisation doing the presentation, I am not an 'affiliate' or have any relationship with the presenter or the organsiation.  

Note that the presentation is split into two parts.  the first part is about 22 MB, the second is only about 5 MB.  The first part finishes suddenly, with no warning, the second part picks up where the first finishes.


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2008)

Nice bump Timmy 

And with perfect timing Dr Brett has a great Blog post on the BullS*** of Emotion in trading and the real cause of trading problems. Here is the crux of it in this quote,



> If you don't understand markets, if you don't systematically prepare for trading, and if you haven't sufficiently rehearsed trading-related skills, you'll perform miserably and you'll become emotional.




Post is here

It also has some very nice articles on skill development.


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## Faithinchartz (17 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Why reasonable smart and logical people apply thinking that in my experience is illogical and must be unique to the trading field.[/B][/U] It seems that the thinking and process of "I'm a sharp cookie at XYZ therefore I can jump in live with hard earned money and go up against pros and succeed" is unique to trading only.




I think that any profession based on logic and with some component of economics or statistics can do better than most traders with minimal practice. There is a lot of witchcraft in trading methods, and the punters like to claim skills that have simply been pulled out of the air with no scientific basis. Makes them feel important.


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## beamstas (17 June 2009)

Faithinchartz said:


> I think that any profession based on logic and with some component of economics or statistics can do better than most traders with minimal practice. There is a lot of witchcraft in trading methods, and the punters like to claim skills that have simply been pulled out of the air with no scientific basis. Makes them feel important.




I disagree with this.
I don't think you need any profession to be a successful trader.. 

Infact maybe the opposite. If you have a profession in you may approach trading with the attitude that you always need to be _right_, you've done the hard yards, you've gotten to the top of your game, how can the market beat you? Every time you trade you have to be right, this could possibly not be beneficial.

Brad


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## skyQuake (18 June 2009)

Look at the name, obvious troll.


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## Mr J (18 June 2009)

I agree with beamstas. Trading requires a certain way of thinking, not a certain type of education. Many seemingly intelligent people become complete fools in a casino. It's not much different when it comes to trading.

As for the topic, I thought I was a sharp cookie, jumped in and mixed it with the pros. How hard could it be? And then I find it's actually easier than expected :.


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## GumbyLearner (18 June 2009)

God made the Idiot for practice. Then he made the School Board.

- Mark Twain


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## Triathlete (9 May 2018)

I realise this is an old thread started by Trembling Hand but it is worth the read.......

How true your quote is Peter2..



peter2 said:


> One reason why people that are successful in one endeavour have difficulty becoming successful in trading could be due to them overlooking the years of learning, effort and experience that they  gained in order to be successful. They wouldn't forget that they started at the bottom and worked their way up, but now that they are successful, their business or endeavour is easily maintained with minimal effort.
> 
> *Not many realise that trading is a very competitive business. Not only do they want to start trading at the top level, they assume that they only need put in a minimal effort to be successful*.
> 
> *Only the few with ambition and motivation to work towards their trading goals will get there.*




And another from....  Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D.

"If you don't understand markets, if you don't systematically prepare for trading, and if you haven't sufficiently rehearsed trading-related skills, you'll perform miserably and you'll become emotional. Plenty of emotional traders contact me seeking help; the vast majority trade simple patterns that have no demonstrable edge whatsoever, do not understand intermarket relationships, and do not know how to read intraday market sentiment. * They're emotional because they haven't a clue*."


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## frugal.rock (17 September 2020)

Triathlete said:


> "If you don't understand markets, if you don't systematically prepare for trading, and if you haven't sufficiently rehearsed trading-related skills, you'll perform miserably and you'll become emotional.



Working on these skills.
So many facets to the market, some important, some not so.
However, systematic preparation and sufficiently rehearsed trading related skills are big helpers in managing emotions.


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