# The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader



## kam75 (24 September 2009)

Question: "What is the single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader that contributed to your success in the markets?"

For me it was realizing that money management is more important than being right in the market.


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## Wysiwyg (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Stop losses (ouch)


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## wayneL (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

expectancy


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## stocksontheblock (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

My biggest mistake, which was a great wake up, dont think its so dam easy


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## nunthewiser (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

the market will do as it wishes , we are merely along for the ride

also learnt that a break and walking away at times is a good thing . the market will still be there when you get back


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## skyQuake (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

A system with a positive expectancy is the most important thing. ie. Hand of Midas > short term profits


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## IFocus (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Testing, testing, testing and testing to find out all of the above and to train the mind.........plus


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## Julia (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

I'm mostly not a trader, as in very short term, but whether short term trading or longer term investing, be prepared to recognise your mistakes.  Quit while the loss is still small.   Never indulge in "Hope".


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## questionall_42 (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Balance between work + trading; putting a $ value on my time.

If you have a job other than trading, then finding a balance between trading and work is critical - be realistic with what you hope to achieve within time constraints, or else every possible free time you have will be consumed by trading.  By monetising your time, you can begin to see how much work was required for x return.  The #s then don't look as pretty as the raw figures...


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## Mr J (24 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Concentration.


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## GumbyLearner (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Eat **** *and trends* and die!


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## Timmy (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*



wayneL said:


> expectancy




:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## ThingyMajiggy (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Dunno, haven't found that out yet, as I haven't reached what I call "success" in the markets yet.


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## nulla nulla (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Have a planned approach to trading/investing that includes:

1. Rresearch on the stock you are thinking of trading/investing;
2. A risk assessment strategy, entry point and exit points; and
3. *Lock in Your profits*


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## joslad (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

You can be wrong - but the tape is never wrong.

As a day trader, you trade the tape - ie the action occuring on the market right now, in front of you.  The tape is never wrong but you can be - once you can accept that fact, your trading will improve and profit!

Risk management is also extremely important!  It's hard enough making money on the market - you don't want to give it back by being stubborn and not taking your losses when the tape indicates you are wrong!


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## tech/a (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*



stocksontheblock said:


> My biggest mistake, which was a great wake up, dont think its so dam easy




Finding out its so Damned easy!


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## Nick Radge (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*

Patience and tenacity.

Even if you have a great plan or strategy with a positive expectancy and great risk management, its still a useless tool unless you can let it works its magic.


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## swm79 (25 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*



Nick Radge said:


> Patience and tenacity.
> 
> Even if you have a great plan or strategy with a positive expectancy and great risk management, its still a useless tool unless you can let it works its magic.




aint that the truth!!!

probably the greatest thing Bubble O Bill taught me as a kid was to "stick to your guns"


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## Temjin (25 September 2009)

Psychology, even for a fully automated trading system with a statistically significant positive expectancy.


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## Bronte (25 September 2009)

Listen politely to the 80 to 90% that get it wrong.
Then timely do the opposite.


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## craigj (25 September 2009)

small locked in profits add up to large profits each month so find trades that you can get in and out of quickly


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## Mr J (25 September 2009)

Bronte said:


> Listen politely to the 80 to 90% that get it wrong.
> Then timely do the opposite.






Something that might sum up this thread is that there is no single most important thing for trading, and that we vary in our strengths and weaknesses.


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## Wysiwyg (25 September 2009)

craigj said:


> small locked in profits add up to large profits each month so find trades that you can get in and out of quickly





No disrespect about the way you trade but it is terrible advice purely and simply because large profits are made by letting winners run. Less transaction costs and less exposure to having a series of losing trades in short succession.


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## Ashsaege (25 September 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> No disrespect about the way you trade but it is terrible advice purely and simply because large profits are made by letting winners run. Less transaction costs and less exposure to having a series of losing trades in short succession.




i agree. You will never bank a big profit if you only bank small ones. you would need a very high win rate with this method... good luck!


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## Grinder (25 September 2009)

always leave yourself an out!


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## cutz (25 September 2009)

Predicting price tomorrow, the day after, next week is impossible, the only way to make consistent profit is via delta neutral strategies.


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## Mr J (25 September 2009)

cutz said:


> Predicting price tomorrow, the day after, next week is impossible, the only way to make consistent profit is via delta neutral strategies.




It's a game of probability, not certainty. I'm not predicting what the price will be tomorrow, but whether it is more likely to go down or up. That can be predicted with enough accuracy to be profitable.


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## kam75 (25 September 2009)

Great to see such a response.   Well done


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## Gillie (25 September 2009)

Do your own research - take everything people say with a pinch of salt...


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## mazzatelli (25 September 2009)

Predicting/forecasting vol and distribution is easier comparably to price



Mr J said:


> It's a game of probability, not certainty. I'm not predicting what the price will be tomorrow, but whether it is more likely to go down or up. That can be predicted with enough accuracy to be profitable.




His point is he found a method that is not reliant on predicting price.


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## nunthewiser (25 September 2009)

To put pants on when leaving the house


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## Gillie (25 September 2009)

I'm sure that everyone has had this dream when they were in high school...

Turning up to school naked... 

Always keep a spare change of clothes in your lockers!


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## Grinder (25 September 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> Predicting/forecasting vol and distribution is easier comparably to price




:iagree:


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## lindsayf (25 September 2009)

learning that knowing when not to trade is just as important as knowing when to trade


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## Mr J (25 September 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> His point is he found a method that is not reliant on predicting price.




He said that predicting price is impossible, so that would seem to be his point.


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## mazzatelli (25 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> He said that predicting price is impossible, so that would seem to be his point.




No, you made it the point. 
He is advocating delta neutral, with focus on vega and convexity.


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## greggy (25 September 2009)

The most important thing I've learnt as a trader is when to stay out of the market.  As per my posts back on this forum in 2007 I warned of a big fall and that I was going to take a break from trading. Too much froth.  I only returned back in Mar 09 when a couple of broker friends told me that the market was going to fall to 2,000 points.  These same characters were talking the market up in 2007.


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## Mr J (25 September 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> No, you made it the point.
> He is advocating delta neutral, with focus on vega and convexity.




Given that it is the reason for why he trades the way he does, it was a certainly a point. We disagree, so let's leave it at that. There are more important things to argue about, such as his statement of price prediction being impossible :.


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## treeman (25 September 2009)

Don't let emotions do the trading for you


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## mazzatelli (25 September 2009)

Yes J,
You know everything. 

This will be my last post on this as I'm a pedant [thanks Wayne] and bored waiting for the Dogs game 
He talked about predicting price as in an absolute $value
You talk about a binary prediction - up or down


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## matty2.0 (25 September 2009)

To be humble.


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## AzzaB80 (25 September 2009)

To think in terms of risk, not potential profit


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## Mr J (25 September 2009)

> You know everything.




While that may have been sarcastic, I readily admit how little I know about anything. I'm blunt, not egotistical.



> He talked about predicting price as in an absolute $value




I don't see why he would. Of course predicting price to that extent is impossible, but since he talked of delta neutral strategies, it's very reasonable to assume that he's talking about price direction.


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## Uncle Barry (25 September 2009)

Good evening.
3, three things/items, not 1, one
must be mastered.

and then understand your failing and accept them,

Fear
Greed
and Denial

master all three, you are in control of your mind and your actions.

Kind regards,
UB


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## jono1887 (25 September 2009)

dont average down.


ever!


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## mazzatelli (26 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> I don't see why he would. Of course predicting price to that extent is impossible, but since he talked of delta neutral strategies, it's very reasonable to assume that he's talking about price direction.




I thought it was reasonable to assume one would predict price direction *and* magnitude to assess an appropriate risk reward 
E.g. I think XAO will touch 4900 - i.e. bullish and up ~200
So ultimately it entails predicting a $value with the degree of accuracy at the traders discretion.

I must be bored, lol


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## Mr J (26 September 2009)

A rough prediction of magnitude, but doesn't the same have to be done for volatility prediction?


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## mazzatelli (26 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> A rough prediction of magnitude, but doesn't the same have to be done for volatility prediction?




I'll keep to cutz' original point, as I can't vouch for how he trades. Delta neutral is not necessarily a bet on vol, though considering it helps. 
Some have no view on price OR vol. They hope to neutralise delta accumulation and earn +theta, the trade off is hedging losses and transaction costs. Trading vanillas to gain exposure to vol is not pure, as there is interrelationships with other Greeks.

But we've gone off topic


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## Mr J (26 September 2009)

I can bring that on-topic. Another contender for most important is always to keep learning and adapt.



> +theta




Time decay? Doesn't this require an opinion as well?


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## mazzatelli (26 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Time decay? Doesn't this require an opinion as well?




J, as each day passes, holding all other variables constant, the option will lose part of its value. There is no stopping the clock.
The only thing you can do is choose to have it work for or against you.


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## Mr J (26 September 2009)

Of course .


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## wayneL (26 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> A rough prediction of magnitude, but doesn't the same have to be done for volatility prediction?




Volatility can be hedged, rather than predicted... but you can predict (or project) if you want.


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## wayneL (26 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> Volatility can be hedged, rather than predicted... but you can predict (or project) if you want.




Quite often, a volatility prediction is _ipso facto_ a prediction in direction also, because of reverse correlation (or not, as the case may be), but not necessarily. 

Mean reversion is also a valid vol play.


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## Mr J (26 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> Volatility can be hedged, rather than predicted... but you can predict (or project) if you want.




Hedges still require favourable probability though to overcome the cost of the hedge. By 'predict', I mean to roughly predict the probabilities, not to actally predict the result.


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## wayneL (26 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Hedges still require favourable probability though to overcome the cost of the hedge. By 'predict', I mean to roughly predict the probabilities, not to actally predict the result.



Hedging volatility is different to hedging price.


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## cutz (26 September 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> Some have no view on price OR vol.




Exactly,

This ties in to my original statement, recently i stopped trying to analyze charts  and biasing a position because i felt the index was going to do one thing i felt that it's impossible predicting.

I've even come to the conclusion that day to day, week to week, month to month price action is a random affair.

The only thing i'm sure of is what mazza pointed out about theta.


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## wayneL (26 September 2009)

cutz said:


> Exactly,
> 
> This ties in to my original statement, recently i stopped trying to analyze charts  and biasing a position because i felt the index was going to do one thing i felt that it's impossible predicting.
> 
> ...




Ahh Sister Theta, that cruel mistress. Better to let her mess with the guy on the other side of the trade. 

Agree.


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## mazzatelli (26 September 2009)

cutz said:


> Exactly,
> 
> I've even come to the conclusion that day to day, week to week, month to month price action is a random affair.




hehe...oh no
We could have a MM in the making : Don't join the dark side!!:vader:


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## Mr J (26 September 2009)

cutz said:


> I've even come to the conclusion that day to day, week to week, month to month price action is a random affair.




Everything is random until we connect the dots .


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## wayneL (26 September 2009)

Mr J said:


> Everything is random until we connect the dots .




Yes, but the dots can only be connected in retrospect. Trading on the hard right edge, the next dot is unknown


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## Mr J (26 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> Yes, but the dots can only be connected in retrospect. Trading on the hard right edge, the next dot is unknown




Depends on which dots you're trying to connect. Connect the dots to how markets work, and then use that information to shift the probabilities in our favour. One path may only be known in hindsight, but maybe there's another path that leads there.


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## overit (26 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> Yes, but the dots can only be connected in retrospect. Trading on the hard right edge, the next dot is unknown




This is the basic premise of where I got bedazzled as a newbie. Took me ages to see thru the forest for all of the trees. I can pull a historic chart to pieces like you wouldnt believe. Patterns, support, resistance, waves, overbought, oversold and all the rest. Tell you the reasons for every turn and bend. Looks impressive but totally useless in real time. I thought all those smart people on the internet doing the same were trading it and making lots of money and I just need to get my plan better sorted coz I could do it too. WRONG!!!

Wasnt until I realised that you dont have a clue what is going to happen next until it has happened and that the future is just a game of probabilities. That was when the true step forwards began.


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## kam75 (26 September 2009)

Ok, Ok I think we're getting a bit off the topic.  This is an excellent response guys.  So to summarise, we have:

1. Money management
2. Taking losses while small 
3. Positive expectancy
4. Importance of time out
5. Market can do anything anytime
6. Recognize your mistakes
7. Never indulge in hope
8. Keep things in perspctive
9. Concentration, patience
10. Being humble
11. Ride the trends - (_Ed Seykota would agree - Kam_)
12. Define what success is, for you.
13. Do your own research
14. Use sound risk management
15. Lock in your profits when they're there (_Ahhh, yes.  A recent $85,000 dollar lesson. - Kam_)
16. Accept that you'll be wrong.
17. Keep it simple you stupid!
18. Sticking to your plan
19. Contrary opinion
20. Always have a good exit strategy
21. Knowing when to stay out of the market
22. Control your emotions
23. Never average down.

Did we get them all?  What about:
24. DISCIPLINE! (_Eat an apple a day - Ed Seykota_)  -Kam
25. Pyramiding profitable positions to maximize profits in the trade.

A fantastic response again guys.


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## ThingyMajiggy (26 September 2009)

Great summary kam  

I think another good one is Timing, Timing is hugely important in trading I believe, can be the difference between a winner and a loser.


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## tech/a (26 September 2009)

Kam.

Do you hold a securities licience or are you just skimming the populace here for Ideas for your seminars.
I'm sure we will see this list on your site nicely packaged as original thinking!


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## kgee (26 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kam.
> 
> Do you hold a securities licience or are you just skimming the populace here for Ideas for your seminars.
> I'm sure we will see this list on your site nicely packaged as original thinking!


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## BBand (26 September 2009)

Hi,
I have not read the whole tread, just from  #63 onwards

Hope the following has not been mentioned already, just trying to be helpful

1  Have a trading plan- without a plan you won't know what to do if/when abnormal conditions happen etc, etc ,etc

2  The market gives us three things, price, volume and time - if you don't use all three then you are short changing yourself

3 Don't take a trade unless the market proves your expected direction
e.g. suppose we see a stock in an uptrend, we get a bar to the downside on low volume - then trail a buy entry on the high of the bar, and subsequent bars (if the volume is still low), stop the low of the bar
i.e you do not enter the trade unless it has moved in your expected direction

4 Always have a plan on how to re-enter a trade which you have been stopped out on. Sometimes we need more than one entry to catch a breakout/reversal etc.

5 You don't have to wait for your stop to be hit, if the trade becomes doubtful - exit and look for a more promising trade

etc. etc

Peter


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## cutz (26 September 2009)

mazzatelli said:


> hehe...oh no
> We could have a MM in the making : Don't join the dark side!!:vader:




Ha ha,

That's pretty funny, i'll be dicking around for half an hour before i can come up with a quote.

Nice pic BTW.


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## Naked shorts (27 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kam.
> 
> Do you hold a securities licience or are you just skimming the populace here for Ideas for your seminars.
> I'm sure we will see this list on your site nicely packaged as original thinking!




fk why does the internet have to be full of these people!


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## GumbyLearner (27 September 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> fk why does the internet have to be full of these people!




Couldn't agree more!

Annoying as all f***.


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## kgee (27 September 2009)

And a big  Heads Up to Tech/A


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## tech/a (27 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kam.
> 
> Do you hold a securities licience or are you just skimming the populace here for Ideas for your seminars.
> I'm sure we will see this list on your site nicely packaged as original thinking!




I particularly like this touch.
An international muppet in our midst no less.


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## ThingyMajiggy (27 September 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> fk why does the internet have to be full of these people!





tech or kam?


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## Naked shorts (27 September 2009)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> tech or kam?




kam


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## kam75 (27 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kam.
> 
> Do you hold a securities licience or are you just skimming the populace here for Ideas for your seminars.
> I'm sure we will see this list on your site nicely packaged as original thinking!




Now why do I seem to detect a taste of sour grapes in your post tech/a?


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## kam75 (27 September 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> fk why does the internet have to be full of these people!




Agreed Naked Shorts.  Have to be careful what you say on this forum


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## sails (27 September 2009)

kam75 said:


> Now why do I seem to detect a taste of sour grapes in your post tech/a?




Kam, I think it has left a rather sour taste for many ASF members.  Most here are generous in their posting to help newbies or those struggling.  But if you are posing as someone needing help while blatantly milking that information for your own financial gain, it doesn't sit well with me.  And then, on the other side of the fence, you seem to be posing as an expert in trading.  

Kam, where is the truth?


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## Timmy (27 September 2009)

Geez folks …. 

Kam is a regular contributor to the forum.  Sure, he offers some sort of service to people, but he doesn’t do it surreptitiously, he has a link to his business posted clearly in his signature.  He is upfront and honest about it, if you ask me.

He asked for some input, and plenty of people came forth with their opinions.  No-one had a gun held to his or her head to post an idea.


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## tech/a (27 September 2009)

Timmy.

I have this thing about people who pass themselves off as something they aren't. Must be as a builder I cant handle unlicensed morons offering to the public that which we licenced people do with all the costs and verification we who are licensed have to go through.

Nothings more regulated than the financial industry and Joe unwittingly is allowing an unlicensed spruiker advertise on his site.
This is a clever Kam as he is posting US trades on his site and doing seminars O/S.

The guys evidently a "Professional Trader" who---if you take the time to have a look at his posts you'll note that there is little in the way of "giving" and a great deal of taking.

There are copious amounts of woe is me why didn't someone tell me about charlatans---I smell a rat so I post a comment---*why would *a "Professional Trader" act dumb and start a thread lick this,not even expanding on his comment.

But hey if you think this fine so be it. I expect that free advertising will then be allowed. If he wants to remove his link then OK by me.

Thought the retort was pretty poor!


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## Timmy (27 September 2009)

Understand what you are saying Tech.  

I suppose one of the things that annoys me the most is the spruikers who come onto the site posing as satisfied customers or as making enquiries about such-and-such trading seminar/software/product, all the while just plugging their product & the dishonesty of doing that.  Kam75 hasn’t done this.

As to the unlicensed aspect of his product; the importance of having an AFSL is something I think we advocate strongly on this site, and while I believe having an AFSL (these are often just ‘rented’) does not guarantee that a financial seminar/software/product/newsletter/whatever will be appropriate for everyone, or even of any use whatsoever, it is a reasonable starting point from which to consider a product offering.  

The other points you bring up are going to very useful to anyone assessing whether any such financial seminar/software/product/newsletter/whatever is potentially of use to them.


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## MACD (27 September 2009)

To be a successful trader you need,

1) discipline and 
2) trade what you see an NOT what you think.

There are many other rules as summarized above, however these two are critical to your success.

Happy trading


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## Wysiwyg (27 September 2009)

sails said:


> Most here are generous in their posting to help newbies or those struggling.  But if you are posing as someone needing help while blatantly milking that information for your own financial gain, it doesn't sit well with me.




Yeah I feel the same way and am usually wary of new posters so didn`t think to check the dudes website. Gleaning information is different to an individual seeking guidance or discussion. It happens alot where posters open a thread for discussion and contribute nothing. Tech/a smacked the nail on the head quite well.


P.S....  As the Bedouin said to the Tea Merchant over a cuppa .... one hump or two.


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## kam75 (27 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Timmy.
> 
> I have this thing about people who pass themselves off as something they aren't. Must be as a builder I cant handle unlicensed morons offering to the public that which we licenced people do with all the costs and verification we who are licensed have to go through.
> 
> ...





Bloody hell.  Just wanted a thread to see some opinion.  No-one hates spruikers more than I do.  Just read my posts.    

So I got a blog.  Big deal.  I created it to teach myself how to build a website and to provide some tips I've learnt over the years.   Yeah, I like to call myself a professional trader.  Trade for a living and it's the only job I've had the last 7 years.

Tech/a and his infinite wizdom.  Dude, seriously, you're spending too much time here.  Maybe we should all run our posts past you for your approval first.


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## tech/a (27 September 2009)

> Maybe we should all run our posts past you for your approval first




Would you mind?

Not talking about your Blog but your advertising.

Frankly I think what your doing stinks.

The retorts much better.


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## Michael Dempsey (27 September 2009)

kam75 said:


> Question: "What is the single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader that contributed to your success in the markets?"
> 
> For me it was realizing that money management is more important than being right in the market.



This was from an investment, not trading but still relevant I guess.
"Never risk more than you can afford to loose" was the lesson I learnt after loosing $150,000 in a failed investment that took 5 years to pay off. It was borrowed money with a lease. Expensive lesson


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## Naked shorts (27 September 2009)

Timmy, its quite obvious that kam is simply doing market research so he has some extra buzzwords to confuse his clients with to make himself look smarter, and continue to perpetuate the illusion that he is able to add value.

Not to mention the way he worded his initial post.



> Question: "What is the single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader that contributed to your success in the markets?"
> 
> For me it was realizing that money management is more important than being right in the market.




He is basically baiting for noobs who are looking for a guru to follow. From this post you can see that kam is saying that he is successful in the markets.

Mindset of a noob:
"hmm, the markets are so hard to navigate, i wish i had someone help me make it easier, oh look, this kam guy is successful. hmm shares made easy! wow im interested, ill just go over to his website and hopefully learn a thing or too from this guy. oh look he wants to give me a free gift "the secrets of trading patterns for profits" cool! All i have to do it give him my email address and pretty soon ill be rich! no chance of him using my email address to continuously send me a barrage of promotions or selling it to spam artists. Cool he consults and does seminars, there I will be able to learn the _true_ secrets of the markets, the stuff they you can even get in the books"

Undercover marketing and lead generation at its finest.


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## 888 (27 September 2009)

LOL, agreed with tech/a, and never listen to someone who'll help you only when you paid.  People who are successful normally will be happy to give advice for free, just need to be on their good side.


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## kam75 (28 September 2009)

tech/a said:


> Would you mind?
> 
> Not talking about your Blog but your advertising.
> 
> ...




You'd like that wouldn't you.  Then you could spend 25 hours a day here criticizing other people's posts.  Get a life man.  I mean look at yourself, Qoute: "The retort much better" - geez, you seem to be getting the kick out of how I respond to your criticism.

I wrote this thread in the Beginners section with the hope that perhaps some of us could contribute something of value.  Most of the people did except you to idiots.

Tech/a and Naked Shorts, please don't contribute to any of my posts again.


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## tech/a (28 September 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*



tech/a said:


> Finding out its so Damned easy!




Is an appropriate response.

As a professional trader of 7 yrs you'd be very familiar with the simplicity of a profitable trading business--infact any business.

You'd also be very aware that the 27 or so most important things learned are infact blocks but not THE single reason people would/could be profitable nor do they in conjunction with each other in full or in part guarentee success.

But then again perhaps you dont!


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## wbosher (28 September 2009)

I read somewhere to _always_ stick to your stop loss...God I wish I'd take that advice as I sit here watching my share price plummet thinking "it'll go back up".


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## MACD (28 September 2009)

wbosher said:


> I read somewhere to _always_ stick to your stop loss...God I wish I'd take that advice as I sit here watching my share price plummet thinking "it'll go back up".




Therein lies the truth!


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## swm79 (28 September 2009)

its almost as though someone is trying to obtain info so as to include it in a presentation at a seminar.... hmmm would there be money made by the operator of this seminar using information posted here???



> Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader
> Ok, Ok I think we're getting a bit off the topic. This is an excellent response guys. So to summarise, we have:
> 
> 1. Money management
> ...




seems very very suspicious.... almost like a tutorial... make sure you get them all! 

now if we just put all of that info into a powerpoint presentation i think we'll have something to sell


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## prozac (28 September 2009)

Thanks for the insights.


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## Joules MM1 (28 September 2009)

got an idea? paper trade the idea(s)

think that discipline is the key to income? that's the quickest way to walk the path of ultimate loss....

any ideas you read that sound good and make total sense; paper trade them...

any ideas you read that are backed by charts; paper trade them......you can't trade hindsight......and there's a plethora of hindsight charts self-back-patting in chatsites....

work out why technicals fail....why one successful triangle break-out is as common as failed triangles.....understand what/who makes the price.....

some pillock is going to tell you that paper trading is worthless, of course, they won't give you their money to risk.....

if you were to apprentice yourself to a mentor and that mentor said no live trades for 12 months, then, how long do you need to self-apprentice yourself for without a mentor? what does your gain strike-rate need to be ? 

if youve never traded before or have turned over your capital a few times, then, importantly; *How do you know you are asking the right questions?* ......

the single most important "thing" you may learn is to ask the right questions, not look for the right answers......


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## weird (28 September 2009)

let people believe whatever they want to believe


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## IFocus (28 September 2009)

Joules MM1 said:


> got an idea? paper trade the idea(s)
> 
> think that discipline is the key to income? that's the quickest way to walk the path of ultimate loss....
> 
> ...




Pretty much the holy grail IMHO testing, testing but it has none of the excitement / passion / emotion etc as real trading, didn't even make the list  "sigh"...........


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## cutz (28 September 2009)

If it aint broke don't try to fix.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

An apple a day keeps the doctor away.


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## kam75 (28 September 2009)

weird said:


> let people believe whatever they want to believe




Should be engraved in stone mate.

Now, who the hell wants to go first and buy my ebooks and seminars?  Tech/a?  Give you $10 bucks off the first lot!


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## weird (28 September 2009)

kam75 said:


> Should be engraved in stone mate.
> 
> Now, who the hell wants to go first and buy my ebooks and seminars?  Tech/a?  Give you $10 bucks off the first lot!




Hi Kam, I would probably err more on the side of Tech/A, because I have a longer relationship with John, but I have nothing against you either. 

The only thing I note, is in your pic you look very young, and while you may have supported yourself over an extended period of trading or inheritance, honestly I don't know or care, unless there is either a public or submitted record of trading results to a mod.

I believe the most important thing is 'compounding', and to move forward, one must accept a horrible year or more (that could potentially put the believers of OST - Out of sample testers - offside, but I don't wish to suggest this as it will fall on either deaf ears or spruikers will use this to sucker more funds.

Anyway mate, if you have something commercially to offer, do it within the legal framework, and best of luck.


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## Naked shorts (28 September 2009)

kam75 said:


> Now, who the hell wants to go first and buy my ebooks and seminars?  Tech/a?  Give you $10 bucks off the first lot!




Hey don't steal my joke. 

Only difference between me and you telling it, is that I dont actually have ebooks and seminars...


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## AlterEgo (28 September 2009)

swm79 said:


> its almost as though someone is trying to obtain info so as to include it in a presentation at a seminar.... hmmm would there be money made by the operator of this seminar using information posted here??




Are you for real? What would you think Kam would have to gain by using anything in that list for a seminar?! Seriously, there are no great secrets or revelations in that list - nothing that you wouldn't read in any decent book on trading. I've heard all those points many, many, times before in countless trading books! Why would he need to ask for this info on here, when he could just open any trading book and copy that instead? I'd be very surprised if any of those points were new to any experienced trader, and if Kam didn't already know all those points in that list, then IMO he shouldn't be in the business, and probably shouldn't be trading. I just find the whole idea of a supposed 'experienced trader' needing to resort to an internet forum for ideas for an upcoming seminar quite absurd - I guess it's possible, but seems highly unlikely to me.


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## sails (29 September 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> Are you for real? What would you think Kam would have to gain by using anything in that list for a seminar?! Seriously, there are no great secrets or revelations in that list - nothing that you wouldn't read in any decent book on trading. I've heard all those points many, many, times before in countless trading books! Why would he need to ask for this info on here, when he could just open any trading book and copy that instead? I'd be very surprised if any of those points were new to any experienced trader, and if Kam didn't already know all those points in that list, then IMO he shouldn't be in the business, and probably shouldn't be trading. I just find the whole idea of a supposed 'experienced trader' needing to resort to an internet forum for ideas for an upcoming seminar quite absurd - I guess it's possible, but seems highly unlikely to me.




AlterEgo, I have been burnt in my early trading years by what I consider to be questionable seminar spruikers.  They don't have to have any creditentials - just a good presentation style and slick marketing usually does the trick.  Very rarely will they show trading statements to prove their experience or profitability - so there is no proof of any background at all.

They can take lists such as the one you mention and present it as a survey from successful traders (successful or not is irrelevant to some spruikers).  Whatever it takes to get people to buy their seminars.

Why wouldn't he just copy from books - perhaps copyright could be an inhibiting factor.  But much more impressive when he could potentially throw up powerpoint slides as a survey from "successful" traders.  While Kam may well be a honest person with a lot of experience in trading, we don't know that.   Goodness, we don't even know if he actually trades, don't know his actual experience, etc.

Some time ago, I knew of someone who had no prior trading knowledge or experience - but what he did have was an excellent teaching / presentation abilities.  He was employed by a spruiker to simply present the material - and paid well.  The job didn't last for too long - the business was managing other people's money on the side and I believe they lost the lot which shut them down.  

So yes, it can and does happen - that's why some of us are not comfortable with what has come to light in this thread.


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## AlterEgo (29 September 2009)

sails said:


> AlterEgo, I have been burnt in my early trading years by what I consider to be questionable seminar spruikers.  They don't have to have any creditentials - just a good presentation style and slick marketing usually does the trick.  Very rarely will they show trading statements to prove their experience or profitability - so there is no proof of any background at all.




Yes, I understand where you’re coming from. There’s plenty of those types around, so people shouldn’t put too much value on what anyone has to say unless they know the speaker is legitimate. 



sails said:


> They can take lists such as the one you mention and present it as a survey from successful traders (successful or not is irrelevant to some spruikers).  Whatever it takes to get people to buy their seminars.




Yes, or if he was so inclined he could just make up some list off the top of his head and say it’s a survey from successful traders – my point is that he wouldn’t need this list on here to do what you are saying. You act like he may ‘steal’ these ideas, but these ideas are common knowledge, they don’t belong to anyone.




sails said:


> So yes, it can and does happen - that's why some of us are not comfortable with what has come to light in this thread.




And what exactly has some to light? That Kam holds investment seminars? So what? Does anyone really care what he does in his spare time? I can’t see what business it is of ours. Has any evidence of wrong doing come to light on this thread? If you have evidence that he’s doing something illegal, then present it to the appropriate authorities.


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## lukeaye (29 September 2009)

lol alterego, if you cant see what he is doing, maybe you should be signing up for his seminars, sure you would get a lot from it. no offence to you, but open your eyes


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## Real1ty (29 September 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> Are you for real? What would you think Kam would have to gain by using anything in that list for a seminar?!




Username: AlterEgo sticking up for another poster.

Am i the only one that finds this suss?


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## sails (29 September 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> ..And what exactly has some to light? That Kam holds investment seminars? So what? Does anyone really care what he does in his spare time? I can’t see what business it is of ours. Has any evidence of wrong doing come to light on this thread? If you have evidence that he’s doing something illegal, then present it to the appropriate authorities.




I don't think you read my post - below is an excerpt: 



sails said:


> ..While Kam may well be a honest person with a lot of experience in trading, we don't know that.   Goodness, we don't even know if he actually trades, don't know his actual experience, etc.


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## sails (29 September 2009)

Here is a link WayneL posted in the derivates forum with interesting information on a well known options educator:  
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB125392859854942915.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoobarrons

Hopefully, it explains the concerns.


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## AlterEgo (29 September 2009)

Real1ty said:


> Username: AlterEgo sticking up for another poster.
> 
> Am i the only one that finds this suss?




Geeez, get f***ing real! You guys are always so quick to judge people! I'm not sticking up for him! I don't know him and have no connection to him. I have no interest in going to one of his seminars - would most likely be a complete waste of my time, not to mention money. I'm just trying to bring some balance to this thread. You guys seem to be acting like a lynch mob, always quick to make acusations, without any evidence!


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## Timmy (29 September 2009)

Real1ty said:


> Username: AlterEgo sticking up for another poster.
> 
> Am i the only one that finds this suss?




I stuck up for Kam too.  Nothing suss, I assure you!

I understand all of your concerns but I can't see how in any way the guy was being dishonest or deceptive.  His link to his business in his signature.  

Anyone running a newsletter/seminar/software/whatever business can view the forum, without even joining, and take whatever is on here.


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## Timmy (29 September 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> Seriously, there are no great secrets or revelations in that list - nothing that you wouldn't read in any decent book on trading. I've heard all those points many, many, times before in countless trading books!




I _almost _have to agree with AlterEgo here too. The only thing I would change is (my changes in bold):

_Seriously, there are no great secrets or revelations in that list - nothing that you wouldn't read in any *crap *book on trading. I've heard all those points many, many, times before in countless *crappy *trading books!_



(Oh, except for my piece of advice, which is of unsurpassed brilliance and erudition 
And ps. I ripped my piece of advice off from Wayne)


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## Real1ty (29 September 2009)

Timmy said:


> I stuck up for Kam too.  Nothing suss, I assure you!
> 
> I understand all of your concerns but I can't see how in any way the guy was being dishonest or deceptive.  His link to his business in his signature.
> 
> Anyone running a newsletter/seminar/software/whatever business can view the forum, without even joining, and take whatever is on here.




No probs and i have made no accusations about Kam in this thread or any other (I couldn't care less to be honest)

I just thought it seems suss that a poster with that username would be sticking up for another.

No offense intended to AlterEgo


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## trainspotter (29 September 2009)

HAHAH ahah ah aha ha a h hehhe ehe he (insert maniacal laugh here) .... WOW ... talk about the chip and seagull syndrome. Poor guy will be lucky to get out alive. Tough crowd. From what I have read what Kam has written and if you guys want to take his advice .... knock yourself out. This is a public forum and I am sure either Joe Blow or the mod squad will be able to tell if he is phishing or not.


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## adobee (29 September 2009)

Wow lots of discussion and haters of each other on this thread...

Most important tip i have learnt .. If you are going to copy anyones trades or look at what other people on this forum are doing then make sure its YOUNG TRADER ...  




Have to agree with the others I hate seeing unlicenced spruikers.. apparently teaaching others.. This occurs in my indusrty which is property... and I hate it with avengence.. Property Secrets my Ass !


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## Timmy (29 September 2009)

adobee said:


> Wow lots of discussion and haters of each other on this thread...




Just for the record, I don't hate anyone on this thread.

Sincerely.  

Don't know why you would say that?


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## kgee (29 September 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> I just find the whole idea of a supposed 'experienced trader' needing to resort to an internet forum for ideas for an upcoming seminar quite absurd - I guess it's possible, but seems highly unlikely to me.




Well you could spin it in different way's
ie
" after consulting with over a 1000 traders my research found that....blah blah blah"
(I can't remember how many members ASF has)


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## Cloud9 (29 September 2009)

let the good ones run, PATIENCE and learning not to sell the good ones early!


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## >Apocalypto< (29 September 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> Are you for real? What would you think Kam would have to gain by using anything in that list for a seminar?! Seriously, there are no great secrets or revelations in that list - nothing that you wouldn't read in any decent book on trading. I've heard all those points many, many, times before in countless trading books! Why would he need to ask for this info on here, when he could just open any trading book and copy that instead? I'd be very surprised if any of those points were new to any experienced trader, and if Kam didn't already know all those points in that list, then IMO he shouldn't be in the business, and probably shouldn't be trading. I just find the whole idea of a supposed 'experienced trader' needing to resort to an internet forum for ideas for an upcoming seminar quite absurd - I guess it's possible, but seems highly unlikely to me.




Patience, discipline and how to accept and manage the feeling of *loss*


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## swm79 (29 September 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Patience, discipline and how to accept and manage the feeling of *loss*




something i'm SURE you'd be good at... Damn Saints!


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## brty (29 September 2009)

Don't do what 90%+ of traders are doing, think outside the square, ditch 'market wisdoms' that the crowd follow.

brty


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## nunthewiser (29 September 2009)

loves everyone here 

even tech/a


i actually thought it was a good thread with some good input ( especially mine) 

i have read Kams posts here at ASF . cant say his posts inspire me in any way, but i havent seen him trying to flog me anything either .....

in fact after reading the discussion again here i am finding quite a few  hypocritical posts actually regarding "opinions" , but hey i have matured over the weekend and now no longer here to point out the sizes of ppls heads etcetc

Dear kam . are you also available for other functions ? we would be happy to hear you speak just as long as you have no problems with basting our sheep on the spit every 30 minutes while you are there. 

all jokes aside 

was a good thread with some good straight to the point input up until it became otherwise


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## satanoperca (29 September 2009)

Take with a pitch of salt, opinions or advice from share market forums.


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## nunthewiser (29 September 2009)

Those that brag the loudest are usually full of it 

this applies to share market courses ,internet forums and self praising speeches in ALL forms of media


paddle your OWN canoe


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## wayneL (29 September 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> Those that brag the loudest are usually full of it





Almost straight out of the Tao Te Ching

_Those who talk most, know least.
Those who know least, talk most.
_

**casts a nervous glance at my number of posts.


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## nunthewiser (29 September 2009)

wayneL said:


> Almost straight out of the Tao Te Ching
> 
> _Those who talk most, know least.
> Those who know least, talk most.
> ...




but your "special"


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## nunthewiser (29 September 2009)

oh geez i just looked at my post rate for the short time i,ve been here 

its a good thing most of my posts are of zero content otherwise i,d be dangerous


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## jono1887 (29 September 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> oh geez i just looked at my post rate for the short time i,ve been here
> 
> its a good thing most of my posts are of zero content otherwise i,d be dangerous




5.2 posts a day isn't too bad... and you've been here more than a year... thats quite a considerable length.

Aren't most of the posts in the general thread zero content anyway? :


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## swm79 (30 September 2009)

A peasant must stand for a long time on hillside with his mouth open before a roast duck flies in.


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## RamonR (30 September 2009)

What I have learnt in my short trading career ( 15 months )

*Don't Trade in October.*

I knew this last year but the lure of constant profits sucked me in.
Out today so will listen to intuition this year.

I don't have a system to short stock otherwise this would probably not be a rule for me.


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## highlowlowhigh (28 October 2009)

*Re: The single, most important thing you've learnt as a trader.*



Wysiwyg said:


> Stop losses (ouch)




i second that :bonk::bonk::bonk:


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## ceasar73 (4 November 2009)

the market is always right.......and I am always bloody wrong!!!

ceasar73


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## Dreadweave (6 November 2009)

2 things for me, the most important thing is 'Dont panic' 

The second is 'dont kick yourself for missing opportunities' you can spend a lifetime complaining about the one that got away, or the one you got out of too soon.


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## carlwilk (6 November 2009)

RamonR said:


> What I have learnt in my short trading career ( 15 months )
> 
> *Don't Trade in October.*
> 
> ...




Id have to agree with that! Also found that March can be a bit hairy at times. For the Gann guys out there, is there anything special about these particular months? Some sort of planetary alignment or something else equally as mysterious?


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## cutz (6 November 2009)

Guys,

What's wrong with October, for many it's been one of the better months with the return of the trader's friend, Mr Volatility.


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## carlwilk (7 November 2009)

cutz said:


> Guys,
> 
> What's wrong with October, for many it's been one of the better months with the return of the trader's friend, Mr Volatility.




  Mr Volatility can work in your favour but can also work against you. I like my trading to be a little more.... boring. I enjoy sleeping at night. :


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## Dreadweave (7 November 2009)

RamonR said:


> What I have learnt in my short trading career ( 15 months )
> 
> *Don't Trade in October.*
> 
> ...





So far November's giving me alot more trouble than October lol


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## condog (7 November 2009)

With out any doubt, my number one biggest lesson - Trade only  stocks you dont care if you get stuck with them for 20 years!!!!!  (eg: good stocks with lots of upside  that pay divs and wont go broke over night)


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## kam75 (8 November 2009)

condog said:


> With out any doubt, my number one biggest lesson - Trade only  stocks you dont care if you get stuck with them for 20 years!!!!!  (eg: good stocks with lots of upside  that pay divs and wont go broke over night)




I'm suprised to see my old thread still going.  

condog, you're like warren Buffett.  It maybe the thing to do if you have a lot of money.  And a lot of people on your side finding out for you what 'a good stock' actually is.  

I think a good lesson I've learned many years ago is to know in advance how you will get out of a trade (whether at a loss or profit), before you buy the stock.


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## nunthewiser (8 November 2009)

Knowing how much im going to lose on the trade before i count my gains i plan  on making


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## MRC & Co (8 November 2009)

Find your niche.

Remember there are a plethora of trading styles and markets to trade.  

Try the markets and styles that are most logical to you to find your niche.


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## Timmy (30 January 2010)

Famous thread!  

Good comments here:
Why social media is 99% rubbish.
http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad.com/


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## Mr J (30 January 2010)

TH ragging us all is a good thread? :


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## Atomic (30 January 2010)

well in a noob , but DYOR (do your own reserch)
validate your research results 
test 
re-evaluate outcomes 
take action - trade either in/out
define result 
more research.

this seems to be cycle just like the markets

Anyhows i bought into Kam74 PTY LTD) in the early days. Watched as it picked up momentum, then the scalpers put some negative spin on the company waited for the dip in sentiment , got sum support from a very good reliable research(Moderator) added 50% to my portfolio of Kam74.
Waited as the market re-evaluated , them dumped at the next high.

Result Kam74 PTYT LTD put on watch list for next swing in market.


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## Trembling Hand (30 January 2010)

Mr J said:


> TH ragging us all is a good thread? :




I shouldn't of bothered with that post, Just put up these 4 pics,






:bunny:


:bowdown:



:thankyou:


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## white_goodman (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> I shouldn't of bothered with that post, Just put up these 4 pics
> 
> :thankyou:




*slow clap*


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## skc (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> I shouldn't of bothered with that post, Just put up these 4 pics,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well someone did mention domain name trading can be quite profitable.

BTW TH, can't agree with your blog content.

Go ask 20 successful business owners what is the single most important thing for going into business, and I bet you will get a range of answers not dissimiliar to the list here. You may get "Be profitable", but you will no doubt get stuff like

- Hard work
- Get the right staff
- Great customer service
- Invest in IT
- Establish a brand
- Open everyday at the same hour (alright may be not)

But you are spot on in saying that - certain "things" are most important to the posters because they had struggled and failed at these very things.


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## Trembling Hand (30 January 2010)

skc said:


> BTW TH, can't agree with your blog content.
> 
> Go ask 20 successful business owners what is the single most important thing for going into business, and I bet you will get a range of answers not dissimiliar to the list here.
> 
> But you are spot on in saying that - certain "things" are most important to the posters because they had struggled and failed at these very things.




Yes but I deeply suspect that these "things" are symptoms rather than causes. That is, if one was not profitable yet started a business, problems will come thick and fast. 

With trading its a very simple business, you don't need all the things, staff, customers paying on time etc. You need capital, a market that moves, and an approach to profit from it. Enough has been said about the first two, the last one I believe is the "thing" that people don't work on and that creates all this other gumph.


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