# Vaccines and Autism



## Glen48 (31 March 2012)

http://www.yolohub.com/economy/vaccines-and-autism-the-secret-that-you-are-not-supposed-to-know


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## Knobby22 (31 March 2012)

Its a beat up. Look up what happened to the scientist who falsified the research.


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## sails (31 March 2012)

I did some research on this prior to my granddaughter's 4yr vaccinations and it appears that it is not so likely to cause autism, but could make a child already with autism worse.

After checking with the GP he said that thimerosal (containing mercury) was banned in Australia.  This little granddaughter has shown some mild autistic tendencies, so there was concern there.  On his assurances, she was vaccinated and there were no issues. 

If there are concerns, apparently the MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) which is the one most likely to have mercury, they can be given at different times rather as a combination.  That means more jabs for the child, but would be better than risking an increase in autism to a child that may already have it.

I have two other step grandkids who to have Aspergers and which is most likely genetic.  They both did get much worse after their MMR vaccs, so perhaps there is something in the idea that it can make kids worse who are already autistic.


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## Starcraftmazter (31 March 2012)

Vaccinations typically have heavy metals in them.

Needless to say it is not good to have a lot of them for a wide variety of reasons.


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## OzWaveGuy (1 April 2012)

For those that want to understand the side effects and problems arising from vaccines, the CDC have a DB you can search. Just enter the vaccine name/product/side effect and search away. eg Deaths relating to MMR vaccines total 304 with 62% in the 1-2 yr age group.

I spoke to a head nurse at ACT health a couple of years ago on vaccine safety, and she refused to believe vaccines caused any deaths period! She doubly refused to believe the US government tracked vaccine side effects at said URL below, even though I ran a search query over the phone with criteria she specified. "Don't believe what you read on the Internet" was her final response. Very few in the health industry are aware of this site (and many simply don't want to know).

http://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html

*CDC WONDER (Wide-ranging Online Data for Epidemiologic Research) is an easy-to-use, menu-driven system requiring no computer expertise or special software. With CDC WONDER, you can produce tables, maps, charts, and data extracts showing the incidence of vaccine adverse events, and select specific event, vaccine, and demographic criteria to produce cross-tabulated incidence measures.*

DYOR


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## sails (1 April 2012)

OzWaveGuy said:


> ... "Don't believe what you read on the Internet" was her final response. Very few in the health industry are aware of this site (and many simply don't want to know).





Yes OWG - that is exactly the response I have received over my daughter's mental health medications that are riddled with potential horrific side effects.  Her liver enzymes have now increased dramatically and also showing kidney function is no longer optimal. The only thing that has changed is WITHDRAWING from prescription medication. 

I think the medical people are living in the dark ages when it comes to the internet.  Maybe, years ago, people only went to the internet to report problems.  These days, there are forums such as this one where regulars chat.  There are so many out there and I have found far more information in reading real life experiences than you will ever find in a pharma leaflet. People are reporting both good and bad.

I researched on zyban for depressed people with low energy.  The reports were surprisingly favourable for that condition.  Probably people with low dopamine levels. Those who had side effects were more those who did not have low motivation to begin with.

I do think the internet is an amazing source of knowledge.  I don't take anything as gospel, but then often the real life experiences guide one in further research to back up those ideas.

The internet has changed.  Plenty of people blog their experiences these days - both good and bad.


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## OzWaveGuy (17 July 2012)

I wonder where this ruling will go...I'm sure many will be following with interest, but don't expect the MSM to provide any updates.

*Italian court reignites MMR vaccine debate after award over child with autism 
*
The controversial row surroundings alleged links between the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism is set to be reignited following a court ruling in Italy.

Judges in Rimini, north-east Italy awarded the Bocca family Euros 174,000 (£140,000) after the Italian Health Ministry conceded the MMR vaccine caused autism in their nine-year-old son Valentino. Up to 100 similar cases are now being examined by Italian lawyers and experts suggest the case could lead to other families pursuing cases.​


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## Glen48 (17 July 2012)

Now you can get a vaccine for any thing but ADD ADT XYZ etc are all in the news, to the best of my knowledge some or all theses vaccines contain Mercury and another additives.
 I have heard stories were some parents have taken their child to be vaccinated and next day the child was a vegetable. 
In USA it is compulsory to have all the injections up to date or you are arrested and fined.
 Seem strange to me all these new health problems have arrived in the last decade who knows what they are putting in the vaccines and what games they are playing.


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## Ferret (17 July 2012)

Of course, the danger is that if people only focus on the potential side effects and choose not to vaccinate, the un-vaccinated will be at risk of contracting conditions that have caused harm or death to many people in the past.  

The statistical risk of contracting these conditions is far greater than that of suffering a serious side effect to the vaccination, and if the percentage of un-vaccinated in the population grows, so does this risk.

Not saying that people shouldn’t be made aware of potential side effects, just make sure you keep an eye on the big picture.


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## Knobby22 (17 July 2012)

Child dies from whooping cough in Victoria
Alison Caldwell reported this story on Thursday, February 17, 2011 08:23:00

TONY EASTLEY: The death of a newborn baby from whooping cough in Melbourne this week has triggered fresh calls for Australians to vaccinate against the highly contagious disease.

Health authorities in Victoria say it's the first death to be linked to the disease since 2004.

A Health Department spokesman said 1,300 infections have been reported since January. That's more than double the number for the same period last year. 

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3141105.htm


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## Muschu (17 July 2012)

Glen48 said:


> http://www.yolohub.com/economy/vaccines-and-autism-the-secret-that-you-are-not-supposed-to-know




The links some people make!  As an ex-educational psych, school Principal, advisor to education support schools  and grandfather of an autistic child ---- look for hard research evidence not crappy scare-mongering statements made by those who thrive on guesswork and publicity.


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## Judd (18 July 2012)

It is fascinating how there is a tendency to ignore that coincidence does not equal correlation and yet this appears to be what anti-vaccine proponents tend to do.  One day it would be nice to take them to a hospital ward and show them a child whose brain has been "fried" as a result of measles.  Hello encephalitis.

The incidence of infection by contagious, but avoidable, diseases has increased in areas such as Nimbin as the vaccination rate has dropped below 85%.


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## DB008 (10 December 2015)

*Eighty children get chickenpox at Brunswick North West Primary,
a school that calls for 'tolerance' of vaccine dodgers​*


> One in four of the children who attend a Brunswick school that calls for tolerance for vaccine dodgers has contracted chickenpox.
> 
> At least 80 of the 320 pupils at Brunswick North West Primary in Melbourne's north have become ill with the disease in the past fortnight.
> 
> ...




http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/eighty-children-get-chickenpox-at-brunswick-north-west-primary-a-school-that-calls-for-tolerance-of-vaccine-dodgers-20151209-gljzkx.html​


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## Tisme (11 December 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Eighty children get chickenpox at Brunswick North West Primary,
> a school that calls for 'tolerance' of vaccine dodgers​*
> 
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/eighty-children-get-chickenpox-at-brunswick-north-west-primary-a-school-that-calls-for-tolerance-of-vaccine-dodgers-20151209-gljzkx.html​




Was a time a mum would put all the kids in the same bedroom so she didn't have to handle individual cases in the future.

My mum could never remember which one of us had chicken pox and who had the mumps. When I fell down with shingles in my thirties I was saddened to realise I hadn't had the mumps instead.


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## DB008 (13 December 2015)

*Anti-vaxxer parent lies to hospital about vaccinating 11 week baby,
baby ends up hospitalised with whooping cough​*



> The 11-week-old daughter of an anti-vaccination activist has been hospitalised for two nights with whooping cough, a week after a maternal health nurse told child protection authorities of her concerns for the unvaccinated baby girl.
> 
> But hours after being discharged from hospital on Friday, the Melbourne woman struck a defiant note, hinting to other members of the Facebook group Unvaccinated Australia that she had lied to hospital doctors in order to leave the hospital.
> 
> ...




http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/antivaxxers-baby-hospitalised-with-whooping-cough-20151211-gll6hl.html​


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## pixel (14 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> Was a time a mum would put all the kids in the same bedroom so she didn't have to handle individual cases in the future.
> 
> My mum could never remember which one of us had chicken pox and who had the mumps. When I fell down with shingles in my thirties I was saddened to realise I hadn't had the mumps instead.




That would've been the "Good Old Days" when an average of 100 children died each year from chicken pox, and over 9,000 were hospitalised with complications arising from the disease. 

Compare that to the uproar today, when 8 toddler drownings in a year give rise to a swag of new laws that force pool owners to fence their pools, regardless whether they have children or not.


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## Tisme (14 December 2015)

pixel said:


> That would've been the "Good Old Days" when an average of 100 children died each year from chicken pox, and over 9,000 were hospitalised with complications arising from the disease.
> 
> Compare that to the uproar today, when 8 toddler drownings in a year give rise to a swag of new laws that force pool owners to fence their pools, regardless whether they have children or not.




Yes the women had so many children they could play the the euphonium section of the orchestra in a high wind!


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## Tisme (4 January 2016)

Good article if you are overly concerned about your progeny: 



> *I Don’t Vaccinate My Child Because It’s My Right To Decide What Eliminated Diseases Come Roaring Back*_
> 
> COMMENTARY
> January 23, 2015
> ...






http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-...Marketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:NA:InFocus


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## Tom32 (4 January 2016)

all my kids are fully vaccinated. Indeed the oldest two, we even paid full price for extras that have only been covered by the pbs in the last 9 years, from memory one was a gut infection and I think chicken pox was the other. The eldest still got a mild case of chickenpox anyway. None have any ill effects though the youngest is more headstrong than her gene pool would indicate...

Now A little older myself I have a healthy cynicism about drug companies and nearly fall into the conspiracy theory camp in my thoughts on them. If go further and even include some doctors and health groups (including cancer council). After seeing how far all are prepared to go to protect drug companies markets.

While it is Not a vaccine, in America champix (well the same drug diff name) has been linked to suicides and has a warning label describing as such. Today on the radio I heard doctors and lobbyists explaining how important it was not to scare people in Australia till there was evidence to prove it caused suicides in Australia. 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...d/news-story/d5c5c72268f385893513328645a0ccb6

Compare that to electronic cigarettes (also a quit method) where drug companies don't get a penny, and suddenly cancer council / doctors / gov want evidence to prove they are completely safe before people should be allowed to use them. They would ban them if only they could link a few more deaths to them.

We all know as investors we expect companies we own to do whatever they have to do to protect their bottom line. If I owned a snake oil company I would expect them to sell it as a cure all. Of course long term returns are important too so we don't want them to be purely short term focused, ie there needs to be a grain of truth to your product.

Would it be so surprising that drug companies wouldn't bend the truth a little around efficacy v side effects. Would it really be surprising that the clinics they get to test said vaccines didn't give them positive reports?

To be fair I am not talking small pox vaccine here which is by all accounts a genuine breakthrough for humanity, rather the dearth of additional vaccines we are being peddled these days as adults and for our children.


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## DB008 (23 March 2016)

*A toddler got meningitis. His anti-vac parents gave him an herbal remedy.
The toddler died.
Now his parents are on trial.​*



> On March 5, the Canadian government opened its trial against David and Collet. The charge: failing to provide their 19-month-old son, Ezekiel, the necessaries of life.
> 
> According to prosecutors, David and Collet stubbornly refused to take their sick son to see a doctor, instead giving him home remedies such as smoothies containing hot pepper, ginger root, horseradish, onion and apple cider vinegar. Even after warnings from a family friend who is a nurse, the anti-vaccine couple took him to a naturopath for echinacea ”” an herb believed to stimulate the immune system ”” instead of to a doctor for an exam.
> 
> ...





https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/03/18/a-toddler-got-meningitis-his-anti-vac-parents-gave-him-an-herbal-remedy-the-toddler-died-now-his-parents-are-on-trial/​


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## Craton (24 March 2016)

DB008 said:


> *A toddler got meningitis. His anti-vac parents gave him an herbal remedy.
> The toddler died.
> Now his parents are on trial.​*
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/03/18/a-toddler-got-meningitis-his-anti-vac-parents-gave-him-an-herbal-remedy-the-toddler-died-now-his-parents-are-on-trial/​




The ineptitude and belief systems of some so-called "parents" begs disbelief. So sad really. 

Oh, and when these two get locked up and fall ill, give 'em herbal remedies.


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## Tisme (24 March 2016)

Craton said:


> The ineptitude and belief systems of some so-called "parents" begs disbelief. So sad really.
> 
> Oh, and when these two get locked up and fall ill, give 'em herbal remedies.




Religion in the mix again and a determined effort to protect their ADHD herbal remedy brand identity.


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## Glen48 (24 March 2016)

http://www.australiannationalreview.com/studies-show-vaccines-impair-immunity-aid/


Looks to me it is all luck and depends on the genetic make up of the child...Bit like will they get XYZ or not ???


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## bellenuit (30 March 2016)

*How the scientific community united against Tribeca's anti-vaccination film*

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...iro-anti-vaccination-film-scientists-response


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

bellenuit said:


> *How the scientific community united against Tribeca's anti-vaccination film*
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...iro-anti-vaccination-film-scientists-response



 Oh dear me!

It seems  that we have yet another religious organisation that has seen fit to censor all expressions of heresy out of a feigned concern for the welfare of their uninformed parish!

Methinks the IAC doth protest overmuch!


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## Knobby22 (30 March 2016)

cynic said:


> Oh dear me!
> 
> It seems  that we have yet another religious organisation that has seen fit to censor all expressions of heresy out of a feigned concern for the welfare of their uninformed parish!
> 
> Methinks the IAC doth protest overmuch!




What? Scientists?
Just because they follow the scientific method? I like the line - there is no point arguing that the world is flat anymore.

Vaccination is very low in Melbourne's Brunswick due to this rubbish information and guess what? Measles has reappeared. And there are some very upset parents including the Greens Adam Bandt who is very upset his kids are at risk due to stupidity.


My Grandmother's heart was damaged and she was partially blind in one eye due to contracting measles when she was little and it killed her eventually. She would be rolling in her grave if she thought we were deliberately bringing it back.

The following less common complications are also possible: 
◾Hepatitis - liver complications in childhood measles is rare and temporary. However, it can be severe in children receiving hepatotoxic drugs (medications which may be toxic to the liver). Acetaminophen (Tylenol, paracetamol) can harm the liver if the dose is too high. Check acetaminophen dosage with your doctor if you wish to use it to treat fever. 
◾Encephalitis - approximately 1 in every 1,000 patients with measles develops encephalitis. This is an inflammation of the brain which may cause vomiting, and convulsions. Coma and even death is possible, but rare. Encephalitis may occur soon after measles, or several years later. 
◾Thrombocytopenia - low platelet count. The blood's ability to clot is affected. The patient may bruise easily. 
◾Squint - eye nerves and eye muscles may be affected. 

The complications listed below are very rare, but possible: 
◾Neuritis - infection of the optic nerve, which can lead to blindness. 
◾Heart complications
◾Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE)  - Occurs in 1 in every 100,000 cases. SSPE is a brain disease which can occur several months or years after measles infection and causes convulsions, motor abnormalities, mental retardation and death. 
◾Other nervous system complications - toxic encephalopathy, retrobulbar neuritis, transverse myelitis, and ascending mielitis.


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> What? Scientists?




Apparently! It's difficult to believe that a body of people committed to censoring freedom of expression of a topic which challenges their  favoured ideology can claim to advocacy of science, but the contents of that guardian article indicate that this is indeed what is happening.


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## Knobby22 (30 March 2016)

cynic said:


> Apparently! It's difficult to believe that a body of people committed to censoring freedom of expression of a topic which challenges their  favoured ideology can claim to advocacy of science, but the contents of that guardian article indicate that this is indeed what is happening.




Hard to believe people can spread ignorance and not expect to be challenged. Read about my Grandma above.


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Hard to believe people can spread ignorance and not expect to be challenged. Read about my Grandma above.




At least she lived to be a grandmother, unlike some infant casualties of vaccination!


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

Knobby, I  know that I  do come across as being unsympathetic to the plight of those whom believe themselves to have suffered due to a lack of one or another form of vaccination. 

What I am trying to emphasize is the importance of allowing the public freedom of access to the full spectrum of available information and perspectives so that they are empowered to make informed choices concerning the healthcare of themselves and their families.

Censorship of any information chaĺlenging the sanctity of any religion (whether it be theistic, pharmaceutical, environmental, or other) only serves to keep the masses uninformed and blinded to reality.


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## pixel (30 March 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Hard to believe people can spread ignorance and not expect to be challenged. Read about my Grandma above.




Knobby,
It's all part of the new Interwebz-based "Democracy", which I rather think of as Anarchy.
Stupidity and ignorance can be spread in the name of freedom of speech and expression because "I'm a Hollywood Celebrity, beloved by Millions of fans; therefore, my opinion on anything is just as worthy of spreading as the finding of any scientist's." Add to that the ability of fringe interest groups to spread their own propaganda, and you get exactly the current situation where even fairly intelligent people succumb to confusion, not knowing what or whom to believe.


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## macca (30 March 2016)

cynic said:


> At least she lived to be a grandmother, unlike some infant casualties of vaccination!




True, but then again, without vaccinations thousands used to die every year.

I went to school with kids limping around with steel braces on their legs, they were the lucky victims of polio, other kids and adults died from it.

Why do you think third world countries want vaccinations


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

macca said:


> True, but then again, without vaccinations thousands used to die every year.
> 
> I went to school with kids limping around with steel braces on their legs, they were the lucky victims of polio, other kids and adults died from it.
> 
> Why do you think third world countries want vaccinations




You happen to be talking about a disease for which my pathology tests returned a positive result. This was despite having been vaccinated against polio throughout my childhood and adolescent years. Given that I've never travelled outside of Australia, it seems that my only exposure to polio was probably via the vaccine.

As to third world countries, I don't actually know with any degree of certainty what they do or do not want. I do find it interesting that apart from the obvious statistical correlations between impoverishment and disease, that there is evidence that some polio outbreaks have been caused by the vaccine! This was acknowledged within a WHO document that somebody provided a link to in the immunisation thread.


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## Knobby22 (30 March 2016)

One of the original vaccines in the 60s used a live polio virus (Sabin vaccine) and this was continued for years as it works better as it competes against wild polio due to it being oral and living in the gut. It wasn't perfect and occasionally the user got polio.  In western countries it is no longer used as the wild virus doesn't exist anymore.  It is still used where polio exists.

The alternative, using a dead virus, the Salk vaccine which provided 60-90% resistance. hence the need for the population to take it. (herd immunity). It is very safe.

Science and our understanding of genes etc. has come a long way since then (50 years later).  Look at this timeline, quite a lot of controversy in the early days. The reason Franklin Roosevelt couldn't walk was polio.

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/polio


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> One of the original vaccines in the 60s used a live polio virus (Sabin vaccine) and this was continued for years as it works better as it competes against wild polio due to it being oral and living in the gut. It wasn't perfect and occasionally the user got polio.  In western countries it is no longer used as the wild virus doesn't exist anymore.  It is still used where polio exists.
> 
> The alternative, using a dead virus, the Salk vaccine which provided 60-90% resistance. hence the need for the population to take it. (herd immunity). It is very safe.
> 
> ...




Some interesting things there.

My recollection of the sabin vaccine is that it was still in use in Australia as recently as the 80s and whilst the perceived benefits were widely publicised,  the risks never seemed to rate a mention. The total absence of precautioniory advice left one with the false impression that there were no associated risks and that this vaccine could only be beneficial.

When it comes to promotion of vaccination practices by our medical authorities via mainstream media, it seems that precious little has changed in the last 50 years.

I cannot help but wonder how many of our current day vaccination practices will still be perceived and described as "very safe" 50 years from now!


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2016)

Apart from a positive diagnosis cynic, did you have any symptoms of polio ?


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## orr (30 March 2016)

cynic said:


> You happen to be talking about a disease for which my pathology tests returned a positive result. This was despite having been vaccinated against polio throughout my childhood and adolescent years. Given that I've never travelled outside of Australia, it seems that my only exposure to polio was probably via the vaccine.
> 
> As to third world countries, I don't actually know with any degree of certainty what they do or do not want. I do find it interesting that apart from the obvious statistical correlations between impoverishment and disease, that there is evidence that some polio outbreaks have been caused by the vaccine! This was acknowledged within a WHO document that somebody provided a link to in the immunisation thread.





Interesting you quote that some out breaks have been caused by the vaccine... Do you have any cases to exemplify this? More recent than say 30 or 40 years ago???  I'll find the historical radio journalism piece if I can that speaks to this exact point. Here in Australia this unfortunatly occured once, Circa late 50's from memory . It was explained to the family's who had tragically suffered the consequences and the series of events that had led to this out come. "times of war' type circumstances, these same parents were the first to have their next children vaccinated against polio. As any rational individual would. As opposed to say,  some bound up hypochondriac  with self confessed lack of larger world experience. The fact that the last residing refuge's of polio are in the illiterate tribal back waters of Afghanistan(a place where they shoot girls for attempting an education)  and the contested war torn northern borders of Pakistan is a good place for the anti vaccination adjutants  to have their 'Alamo'.

Notably every other third and for that matter first and second world country no longer consider polio an acceptable risk to their population. 

And there are quite a few things that have changed in 50 years ... No smallpox, no deaf and disabled from rubella  a very limited number  of children coughing themselves to asphyxiation  and death with whooping cough not many bogans(mores the pity) complaining about infertility due to mumps...without immunisation these inflictions would conservatively number in hundreds of millions. Not that you'd notice if you lived in a hole in the ground of course. 

 While we're on holes in the ground; I have it on good authority that there has been a considerable interest shown by a 'Lord Monckton and Mr 'prof' Delingpole, for a cave to use in the this same Afgani/Paki area in the very near future, to continue their peculiar 'crusade'.


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Apart from a positive diagnosis cynic, did you have any symptoms of polio ?




I'd been suffering unexplained muscular pain,headaches,  bouts of fatigue and dizziness since before my teenage years. The family gp used to regularly dismiss these symptoms as "growing pains".

After all why would a gp test a vaccinated child for polio when everybody is convinced that it's presence has been totally eliminated from Australia?

Decades later during a period of devastatingly poor health, a more thorough GP referred me for pathology tests for polio and a number of other diseases. Around this same time, said gp measured a reduction in my active tissue mass of several kilos inside a period of 3 to 4 months.


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

orr said:


> Interesting you quote that some out breaks have been caused by the vaccine... Do you have any cases to exemplify this? More recent than say 30 or 40 years ago???  I'll find the historical radio journalism piece if I can that speaks to this exact point. Here in Australia this unfortunatly occured once, Circa late 50's from memory . It was explained to the family's who had tragically suffered the consequences and the series of events that had led to this out come. "times of war' type circumstances, these same parents were the first to have their next children vaccinated against polio. As any rational individual would. As opposed to say,  some bound up hypochondriac  with self confessed lack of larger world experience. The fact that the last residing refuge's of polio are in the illiterate tribal back waters of Afghanistan(a place where they shoot girls for attempting an education)  and the contested war torn northern borders of Pakistan is a good place for the anti vaccination adjutants  to have their 'Alamo'.
> 
> Notably every other third and for that matter first and second world country no longer consider polio an acceptable risk to their population.
> 
> ...



I  believe that the WHO document that you, yourself, so helpfuĺly provided a link to in the immunisation thread, made mention of vaccine related outbreaks within the past decade. Perhaps you didn't take the time to actually read the actual document before linking it into that post!

As for reduction in disease, has it ever occurred to you to wonder how curious it is that so many newly discovered diseases have remarkably similar symptoms to those other diseases that have purportedly been eradicated?


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2016)

cynic said:


> I'd been suffering unexplained muscular pain,headaches,  bouts of fatigue and dizziness since before my teenage years. The family gp used to regularly dismiss these symptoms as "growing pains".
> 
> After all why would a gp test a vaccinated child for polio when everybody is convinced that it's presence has been totally eliminated from Australia?
> 
> Decades later during a period of devastatingly poor health, a more thorough GP referred me for pathology tests for polio and a number of other diseases. Around this same time, said gp measured a reduction in my active tissue mass of several kilos inside a period of 3 to 4 months.




Sorry to hear that. Any treatment that does any good ?


Interesting that the US admits that vaccines cause harm to some people and have set up a fund to compensate them.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/


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## cynic (30 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry to hear that. Any treatment that does any good ?
> 
> 
> Interesting that the US admits that vaccines cause harm to some people and have set up a fund to compensate them.
> ...




A regime of resistance exercises accompanied by a high protein diet helped enormously in rebuilding the lost tissue. The fatigue and other symptoms have unfortunately persisted, but are thankfully far less severe.


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## Tink (31 March 2016)

cynic said:


> Apparently! It's difficult to believe that a body of people committed to censoring freedom of expression of a topic which challenges their  favoured ideology can claim to advocacy of science, but the contents of that guardian article indicate that this is indeed what is happening.




Good on you, cynic, for having your say.
Whether people agree, or disagree, I don't think people should be silenced.

I have brought this up on a different topic -
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=27938&page=74&p=897232&viewfull=1#post897232

This must be the thread you are talking about -
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26831&page=11&highlight=immunisation

I know another lady that feels the same as you (not religious).

I wonder how many people have had the flu shots etc.


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## SirRumpole (31 March 2016)

Is cynic, Tink or anyone else suggesting that vaccination campaigns be stopped ?


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## cynic (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Is cynic, Tink or anyone else suggesting that vaccination campaigns be stopped ?




No!

What I am speaking out against is the suppression of freedom of speech and the removal of people's freedom to decide for themselves whether or not this particular practice is suitably safe and beneficial!


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## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

cynic said:


> people's freedom to decide for themselves whether or not this particular practice is suitably safe and beneficial!




Surely some things can be shown to be suitably safe and beneficial scientifically, and a persons opinion to the contrary is not valid.

I mean seat belts have been shown through repeated test under many conditions to improve safety of the people wearing them and other passengers, so that's why they have become a legal requirement, I persons personal opinion about their safety that is not based on science is not enough to remove the legal requirement.


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## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting that the US admits that vaccines cause harm to some people and have set up a fund to compensate them.




offcourse they can, but the risk is far lower than not having a large part of the population vaccinated.

Whenever the government mandates that a certain thing must be done, it kind of has to provide compensation when that thing cause harm to some one, but that in no way suggests that is wrong to do that thing.

eg, we know motor vehicle accidents will happen, so the government created compulsory insurance schemes etc to help the few people that get hurt, But that in no way means the government funded national highway scheme is immoral or dangerous, it just means that they know that even though the majority of people get to the destination safely, there will be accidents on the freeways.


----------



## cynic (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Surely some things can be shown to be suitably safe and beneficial scientifically, and a persons opinion to the contrary is not valid.
> 
> I mean seat belts have been shown through repeated test under many conditions to improve safety of the people wearing them and other passengers, so that's why they have become a legal requirement, I persons personal opinion about their safety that is not based on science is not enough to remove the legal requirement.




Scientists are humans and as such have a history of making mistakes! 

Automatic dismissal of any contest to the presumed infallibility of any area of science, will simply amplify the risk of perpetuation of scientific fallacies and as such, is likely to hamper scientific progress.

Those true to the art of science could never seriously entertain a regime that disallows testing of their current theories.

With the possible exception of concepts like 1+1=2, I am currently unaware of any area of science that has achieved sufficient comprehension of all relevant facts to be able to claim infallibility!

Whenever any scientist claims that an invasive medical procedure involving toxic substances has been proven to be safe for all and sundry, I know for a fact that "scientist" is either misinformed or lying. Extreme caution should ideally be taken when assessing the merits of any information offered by such individuals. 

However, it seems that instead of exercising due caution, our society has, instead, chosen to aid and abet such mendacity by being supportive of efforts to impose a treasured vaccination ideology on the entire human populace, whilst at the same time suppressing the voices of any dissenters.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> offcourse they can, but the risk is far lower than not having a large part of the population vaccinated.




Agreed of course.



> Whenever the government mandates that a certain thing must be done, it kind of has to provide compensation when that thing cause harm to some one, but that in no way suggests that is wrong to do that thing.




Agreed again except that in this country there seems to be no admission that vaccines can cause harm to a very small number of people and no compensation when that does happen. There seems to be a conspiracy of silence lest it makes people afraid of getting their kids vaccinated.

There needs to be an adult conversation on the merits vs the risk not an attack on people who may have valid concerns.



> eg, we know motor vehicle accidents will happen, so the government created compulsory insurance schemes etc to help the few people that get hurt, But that in no way means the government funded national highway scheme is immoral or dangerous, it just means that they know that even though the majority of people get to the destination safely, there will be accidents on the freeways.




See above, where is our compulsory insurance policy for vaccination and a compensation scheme for those injured ?


----------



## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> There needs to be an adult conversation on the merits vs the risk not an attack on people who may have valid concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> ?




Its been done, vaccines have been proven to work and the risks are next to nothing compared to the risks of a society that doesn't use them.


----------



## cynic (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Its been done, vaccines have been proven to work and the risks are next to nothing compared to the risks of a society that doesn't use them.



You seem to have a very liberal understanding of the meaning of the word "proven".

Admitting favourable outcomes whilst at the same time disavowing those less favourable doesn't really prove much, if anything at all.

 Favouring one statistical correlation in isolation from any known competing correlations, in support of a favoured conjecture so it may then boldly be declared to have been "proven" is not the action of a scientist - it is however the action of a charlatan!


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## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

cynic said:


> .
> 
> Favouring one statistical correlation in isolation from any known competing correlations, in support of a favoured conjecture so it may then boldly be declared to have been "proven" is not the action of a scientist -!




that's not what the generations of scientists involved in developing vaccinations have done.


it has been proven, in repeatable tests, that people(and other mammals) who are vaccinated are largely immune from the disease and provide herd protection to those around them by not becoming a vector.

I am not really interested in discussing your conspiracy theories, I know you seem to think that the eradication or small pox and the near eradication of other diseases has been due to people washing their hands rather than vaccines, but I think that's bollocks, so am not really interested.


----------



## cynic (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> that's not what the generations of scientists involved in developing vaccinations have done.
> 
> 
> it has been proven, in repeatable tests, that people(and other mammals) who are vaccinated are largely immune from the disease and provide herd protection to those around them by not becoming a vector.
> ...




Okay! I think I  know where you're coming from now!
For some people,  anything that complies with one's personal ideology is automatically accepted to have been "proven" and is thereafter infallible and immune to any and all subsequent challenges.
In order to preserve aforementioned infallibility, any conflicting evidence cannot be entertained and must therefore be dismissed as invalid.

I shall endeavour to respect the right of yourself and others to form and hold their own opinion on this and other matters, and ask that I be afforded the same courtesy.


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## SirRumpole (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Its been done, vaccines have been proven to work and the risks are next to nothing compared to the risks of a society that doesn't use them.




So dissenters should be fined, ostracised, jailed ?


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## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So dissenters should be fined, ostracised, jailed ?




Not sure which dessenters in which situations you are referring to.

But we already have laws against denying certain medical treatments and safety gear to children.

Eg, your kid will probably be banned from the local BMX club if you refuse to make him where a helmet, you can be fined if you don't put a seat belt on your child or refuse to use a baby capsule etc.

At my primary school we had a "no hat, no play" policy.

So we already deny children access to certain things and fine parents for denying certain things, I can't see there is much difference.

--------------

Do you see a problem with a parent being fined that continually refuses to make its child where a seat belt?


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## SirRumpole (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Not sure which dessenters in which situations you are referring to.
> 
> But we already have laws against denying certain medical treatments and safety gear to children.
> 
> ...




Well the fact is that severe allergic reactions can occur to vaccines. I'd like tests developed before the vaccines are given to see whether there will be a reaction. I don't blame parents for being worried about such things even if the risk is small.

Do you think parents should be charged if they let their kids walk to school and one day they get kidnapped ? Is that negligence ?


----------



## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Well the fact is that severe allergic reactions can occur to vaccines. I'd like tests developed before the vaccines are given to see whether there will be a reaction. I don't blame parents for being worried about such things even if the risk is small.
> 
> Do you think parents should be charged if they let their kids walk to school and one day they get kidnapped ? Is that negligence ?




That's like saying in some cases a seat belt or a bike helmet contributed to an injury, so despite the over whelming evidence that these items save countless people, we should not make parents use them.

Avoiding using a seatbelt because in some rare cases seatbelt so have be harmful is crazy, it's the same with a vaccine, probably more so.


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## cynic (31 March 2016)

Hats and seatbelts?!!!

The last time I checked these were not biologically invasive medical procedures and as such can hardly be considered as a valid comparison to vaccination.

Methinks somebody has run out of material to support their chosen ideology!


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## SirRumpole (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> That's like saying in some cases a seat belt or a bike helmet contributed to an injury, so despite the over whelming evidence that these items save countless people, we should not make parents use them.
> 
> Avoiding using a seatbelt because in some rare cases seatbelt so have be harmful is crazy, it's the same with a vaccine, probably more so.




There is no test for whether a seatbelt will injure a particular individual in any circumstance, there are or should be tests for allergic reactions to vaccines in individuals.


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## Garpal Gumnut (31 March 2016)

Penn and Teller tell it best.

[video]https://youtu.be/lhk7-5eBCrs?t=8[/video]

gg


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## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no test for whether a seatbelt will injure a particular individual in any circumstance, there are or should be tests for allergic reactions to vaccines in individuals.




There may be no test, but everyone who wears a seatbelt and drives runs the risk that the seat belt may contribute to their death or an injury, however we accept that it is far more likely to have a positive impact, it's the same with a vaccine.

But feel free to go and develop a allergy test for vaccines, if doctors actually thought they were necessary, they would be selling millions of them, the drug manufacturers would probably make more money selling them than the vaccine.

Do you have any numbers on what percentage actually have a reaction that causes permanent harm?


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## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

The numbers would be small. If we don't test anyone then there should at least be a US style compensation fund that people can draw on instead of having to go through the courts.


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## Tisme (1 April 2016)

Tink said:


> I wonder how many people have had the flu shots etc.




May 3rd for the four strain version. I'll be there with bells on. I usually have the nurse throw in a cocktail of anything I might need. When travelling, the last thing I want is falling sick from a preventable disease like ...say death.

I recall I forgot what stage I was at with the hep vaccines and had to restart that one to make sure I hadn't missed  a step. LOL

Wife made sure my kids were vaccinated for the usual childhood stuff, then insisted they have the hep shots to avoid the spreading hep disease that is enjoying the anal sex craze promotion and consequent septic hands handling of everything from green groceries to door knobs (remember to wash, not just rinse, your veggies and fruit, it's a sewerage farm out there).


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The numbers would be small. If we don't test anyone then there should at least be a US style compensation fund that people can draw on instead of having to go through the courts.




Maybe, but do this thought experiment.

If humans for some unavoidable natural reason were subjected to a game of Russian roulette, where at the age of 10 we all had to point a gun with 49 empty chambers and 1 loaded chamber at our chest and pull the trigger, 1 in 50 of us would suffer death or a severe injury.

If some one invented a gun with 50,000 empty chambers we could swap the natural one with, we would reduce the deaths and injuries to 1 in 50,000. Now there is an arguement that those really unlucky people that get an injury don't deserve any extra compensation other than the normal Medicare treatment and disability pensions, because the was always a natural risk there anyway, the vaccine reduced it.

If a vaccine is faulty that's different though.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 April 2016)

Tink said:


> I wonder how many people have had the flu shots etc.




They haven't come out yet but I will be there with bells on also.
Last year I didn't have it because I got lazy and got quite sick.

A few years ago my brother worked at a professional football club. 
One of the assistant coaches wouldn't take the flu shots because he has never been sick in his life. 
He got the flu so bad that he had to have two months off, needless to say the club was not happy.

All kids these days are getting inoculated for HPV virus. This simple injection stops girls getting cervical cancer when they are older. All for it.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe, but do this thought experiment.
> 
> If humans for some unavoidable natural reason were subjected to a game of Russian roulette, where at the age of 10 we all had to point a gun with 49 empty chambers and 1 loaded chamber at our chest and pull the trigger, 1 in 50 of us would suffer death or a severe injury.
> 
> ...




It is proven that most people have a lot of trouble understanding risk. This also equates to the share market also.

https://sites.google.com/site/skepticalmedicine//poor-decisions-and-prospect-theory

We are not rational deciders.
 - We think in terms of gains and losses with respect to our perceived and expected status quo.
 - We fear losses more than we like gains.
 - We distort probability according to how a prospect is framed (in terms of gains and losses).
 - Our choices are highly dependant on how scenarios are framed. 
 - We overvalue probability (risk) when thinking in terms of loss (risk seeking).
 - We undervalue probability when thinking in terms of gains (risk averse).
 - These heuristics may lead to irrational health choices by patients and doctors alike.


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## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> It is proven that most people have a lot of trouble understanding risk..




Yep, and the bad thing with vaccine avoidance is that if 6% or more people avoid the vaccine then the whole herd protection thing starts to break down and innocent people start having the 50 chambered gun pointed at them without their knowing it.

That's why the government is starting to push back and introduce more pressure to make people get vaccinated.

Here is a video that explains how the system breaks down when vaccination rates fall below 96%, and why when you avoid it you are not just taking a stupid risk yourself, but putting others at risk.


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## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe, but do this thought experiment.
> 
> If humans for some unavoidable natural reason were subjected to a game of Russian roulette, where at the age of 10 we all had to point a gun with 49 empty chambers and 1 loaded chamber at our chest and pull the trigger, 1 in 50 of us would suffer death or a severe injury.
> 
> ...




Well I'm all in favour of vaccination, but the first rule of medicine is "do no harm". Sure its a small risk but if someone is so injured that they require a lifetime of care then they should get it. 

Maybe the NDIS caters for this, but if the vaccines are marketed by the companies and government as "completely safe" , then they are lying and they should bear the consequences when things don't turn out right. After all , if the risk is that small then they should hardly ever have to pay out, so there is little problem with actually doing so when the occasion arises.


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## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Well I'm all in favour of vaccination, but the first rule of medicine is "do no harm". Sure its a small risk but if someone is so injured that they require a lifetime of care then they should get it.
> 
> Maybe the NDIS caters for this, but if the vaccines are marketed by the companies and government as "completely safe" , then they are lying and they should bear the consequences when things don't turn out right. After all , if the risk is that small then they should hardly ever have to pay out, so there is little problem with actually doing so when the occasion arises.




I don't think anything in medicine is marketed as completely safe, even aspirin lists side effects.

Every medical procedure has risks, in the case of human diseases we human all have a risk of being affected by a disease, without vaccinations the risk is huge with vaccinations the risk is tiny.

The Medicare system and other safety nets we have will look after you if you are affected by either a disease or a vaccine.

All I am saying is that if you are affected by a vaccination, you are not really entitled to any extra compensation than if you just caught the disease in the wild.

For example, say cynic didn't get the polio vaccine and caught polio and was crippled, he would be cared for buy our existing safety nets he wouldn't get paid out $50K compo.

So why should he get $50k compo because of the relatively mild symptoms he attributes to the vaccine? When the guy that gets the devastating effects of the proper disease doesn't get compo


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## Tisme (1 April 2016)

Polio and TB were terrible diseases. Smallpox wiped out cultures.

It's really a matter of minimising risk in the absence of eliminating it.


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## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I don't think anything in medicine is marketed as completely safe, even aspirin lists side effects.
> 
> Every medical procedure has risks, in the case of human diseases we human all have a risk of being affected by a disease, without vaccinations the risk is huge with vaccinations the risk is tiny.
> 
> ...




My concern in this matter has nothing whatsoever to do with compensation entitlements! My concern has everything to do with the rights of the general population in being allowed the freedom to make informed choices regarding the healthcare of themselves and their families!

The fact that some people believe a particular practice is more beneficial than detrimental, doesn't entitle those people to force that practice onto others!

If you believe in vaccination, then by all means go ahead and vaccinate yourself to the limits and then live with the consequences whatever they may happen to be! 

But don't you dare presume the right to push those poisons onto others! 

I for one, have no desire to live with the consequences that may arise from the actions of those foolishly demanding the right to force their personal ideology onto others


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## Knobby22 (1 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Polio and TB were terrible diseases. Smallpox wiped out cultures.
> 
> It's really a matter of minimising risk in the absence of eliminating it.




Smallpox is eliminated. Perfect result.


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## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

cynic said:


> The fact that some people believe a particular practice is more beneficial than detrimental, doesn't entitle those people to force that practice onto others!
> 
> If you believe in vaccination, then by all means go ahead and vaccinate yourself to the limits and then live with the consequences whatever they may happen to be!
> 
> ...




do you think the government has the right to enforce the wearing of seat belts?

Also the problem is, your actions affect others, by refusing to be vaccinated, you are opening yourself up to the risk that you will become a vector for the disease and pass it onto others.

We have laws that prevent people putting others in danger, eg your freedom to drink alcohol does not mean you have a freedom to drink and drive. So it seems ok to me that the government might put restrictions on people that have not been vaccinated, what you have to understand is that disease control is about more than just you.


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## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

Knobby22 said:


> Smallpox is eliminated. Perfect result.




We nearly had polio beaten too, until groups actively worked against the final stages of vaccination.

That's the problem, it only takes a small group to wreck the process, at what point do we say "no you personal freedoms don't extend to stopping this eradication process"


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## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> do you think the government has the right to enforce the wearing of seat belts?
> 
> Also the problem is, your actions affect others, by refusing to be vaccinated, you are opening yourself up to the risk that you will become a vector for the disease and pass it onto others.
> 
> We have laws that prevent people putting others in danger, eg your freedom to drink alcohol does not mean you have a freedom to drink and drive. So it seems ok to me that the government might put restrictions on people that have not been vaccinated, what you have to understand is that disease control is about more than just you.




Seat belts again! How the FTSE do you justify comparing a seat belt to a physically invasive medical procedure!

If you'd prefer to discuss seat belts, then I suggest you start a separate thread.


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## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> We nearly had polio beaten too, until groups actively worked against the final stages of vaccination.
> 
> That's the problem, it only takes a small group to wreck the process, at what point do we say "no you personal freedoms don't extend to stopping this eradication process"




Yes, that sums it up well. Whenever these wonder drugs fail to deliver the expected outcome, it can only be the fault of the scant few prevailing heretics and cannot have anything, whatsoever, to do with the widespread use of the drug itself!

 After all these wonder drugs are so sacred that none may dare speak out against them lest they be stripped bare of their career and credentials and repeatedly stoned in the public media!


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## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

cynic said:


> Seat belts again! How the FTSE do you justify comparing a seat belt to a physically invasive medical procedure!
> 
> .




Both selt belts and vaccines save countless lives and prevent injury and disfigurement, however in extremely rare situations, both can cause injury or contribute to a death.


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## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

cynic said:


> Yes, that sums it up well. Whenever these wonder drugs fail to deliver the expected outcome, it can only be the fault of the scant few prevailing heretics and cannot have anything, whatsoever, to do with the widespread use of the drug itself!




How has the polio vaccine failed??? I have never met anyone with polio, when my dad was a boy every town had victims, my grandfather had polio and needed walking sticks for his whole life after that, and his small country town needed a polio recovery centre because the number of people affected was huge.

we don't see that these days,...... But I know you think its because of people washing their hands or some thing, lol.

----------------------------------------------------------

Polio is nearly gone, we just need those last few spots to get vaccinated so we can wipe out the last 1% of the problem.





-------------------------------------------------
Polio history in 1 minute


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## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Both selt belts and vaccines save countless lives and prevent injury and disfigurement, however in extremely rare situations, both can cause injury or contribute to a death.



Well everyone's entitled to hold their personal opinion.

Mine happens to be that there are far too many differences in terms of the method of application of the seat belt itself, and the nature of the  risks that it is designed to address, for this to be entertained as a reasonable comparison to vaccination.

When such absurd comparisons start becoming repetitious, I  start to suspect that the person raising them is running out of relevant material with which to support their assertions and essentially "grasping at straws" in a desparate attempt to keep their argument afloat.

I keep hearing the chanting of the "thousands of lives saved" mantra, accompanied by the claim that this somehow justifies the collateral damage. However, whenever I challenge anyone to identify just one person, that they know with certainty, can be proven to have been spared death as a sole outcome of vaccination, that challenge never seems to be met with anything more than a repetition of the usual mantras!


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

cynic said:


> However, whenever I challenge anyone to identify just one person, that they know with certainty, can be proven to have been spared death as a sole outcome of vaccination, that challenge never seems to be met with anything more than a repetition of the usual mantras!




That's got to be one of the stupidest questions I have seen.

where is this collateral damage you speak of? where are the rooms of vaccination victims that can compare to the polio wards of the 50's such as below.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-vaccines-carlsbad-documentary-letters-20-002-photo.html


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## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> How has the polio vaccine failed??? I have never met anyone with polio, when my dad was a boy every town had victims, my grandfather had polio and needed walking sticks for his whole life after that, and his small country town needed a polio recovery centre because the number of people affected was huge.
> 
> we don't see that these days,...... But I know you think its because of people washing their hands or some thing, lol.
> 
> ...





There is a WHO document that admits that some polio outbreaks were caused by vaccination. I bolded the pertinent sections in one of my posts in the immunisation thread. Given that you were an active participant of that thread during that time I fail to understand how you could be oblivious to this! Which of course leads me to the usual suspicions about the dismissal of evidence in a vain attempt at maintenance of one's perdonal infallibility delusion.


----------



## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> That's got to be one of the stupidest questions I have seen.




Really. You claim to know that thousands are saved! If so, it shouldn't be at all hard to identify just one then, should it!

Or is your dismissal of this question as stupid merely an avoidance of the uncomfortable fact that you are unable to furnish a valid response?


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

cynic said:


> Really. You claim to know that thousands are saved! If so, it shouldn't be at all hard to identify just one then, should it!




let me give you an analogy to show how stupid your question is.

Lets say in the year 2000, a young man noticed the hijacking risk commercial jets had, and he lobbied and got the government to legislate that all commercial jets needed reinforced lockable doors to prevent Hijacking.

This would have prevented the September 11 attacks a year later, saving thousands and preventing a 14 year war that killed 10's of thousands.

However, a person who thought the idea was useless might ask 10 years later, "Look at the millions of dollars spent retrofitting planes, but can you show me 1 person whos life it saved?"

it would have indeed saved thousands of lives by preventing the sep11 attacks and the following war, but as with any prevention its impossible to name exactly who those lives are.

However there probably would be cases where we can show vaccinated people have worked in areas where they would normally be expected to catch a disease.


----------



## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> let me give you an analogy to show how stupid your question is.
> 
> Lets say in the year 2000, a young man noticed the hijacking risk commercial jets had, and he lobbied and got the government to legislate that all commercial jets needed reinforced lockable doors to prevent Hijacking.
> 
> ...



Resorting to non medical analogies yet again!

How about simply giving a direct answer to the actual question!


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2016)

cynic said:


> Resorting to non medical analogies yet again!
> 
> How about simply giving a direct answer to the actual question!




I gave you a direct answer, it's impossible to know exactly which people were saved, just as its impossible to predict exactly who will contract the disease.

So you shouldn't expect a list of all the thousands saved, just as I shouldn't expect a list of everyone who will contract the disease in the future.

--------------------------

But anyway, as I said I am not really interested in discussing it with you further, because I believe everyone reading your comments will see your logical flaws for what they are.

you are either a Poe or a fool, either way I am not interested.


----------



## cynic (1 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I gave you a direct answer, it's impossible to know exactly which people were saved, just as its impossible to predict exactly who will contract the disease.
> 
> So you shouldn't expect a list of all the thousands saved, just as I shouldn't expect a list of everyone who will contract the disease in the future.
> 
> ...



Thanks for clarifying your position on this. 

Given that there is acknowledgement of an inability to prove so much as a single case in support of the thousands of lives saved assertions, I can only conclude that support for this campaign promoting mandatory vaccination is founded on premises unrelated to science.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2016)

cynic said:


> Thanks for clarifying your position on this.
> 
> Given that there is acknowledgement of an inability to prove so much as a single case in support of the thousands of lives saved assertions, I can only conclude that support for this campaign promoting mandatory vaccination is founded on premises unrelated to science.




Cynic, I have some sympathy for you, but really, compare the number of polio/smallpox/flu/whooping cough cases before and after vaccines were invented and you will get an idea of the number of lives saved.

It's not rocket surgery


----------



## cynic (1 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Cynic, I have some sympathy for you, but really, compare the number of polio/smallpox/flu/whooping cough cases before and after vaccines were invented and you will get an idea of the number of lives saved.
> 
> It's not rocket surgery




As I  have already mentioned, there have been a variety of other changes, also associated with improved  health outcomes, during the historical period from which those statistical assumptions are typically derived. 

Further to this, the strength of societal convinctions, seems to be warping the processes of data collection and interpretation.

Before we force vaccination upon the masses, wouldn't it be better to, at the very least, have some rigorous proof (rather than statistical supposition) that they actually do deliver the promised outcomes?


----------



## Tisme (2 April 2016)

cynic said:


> As I  have already mentioned, there have been a variety of other changes, also associated with improved  health outcomes, during the historical period from which those statistical assumptions are typically derived.
> 
> Further to this, the strength of societal convinctions, seems to be warping the processes of data collection and interpretation.
> 
> Before we force vaccination upon the masses, wouldn't it be better to, at the very least, have some rigorous proof (rather than statistical supposition) that they actually do deliver the promised outcomes?




All it takes is a major war, with the loss of water quality, decimation of sewerage facilities, rotting  corpses, etc and we could well be back to the historical period that spawned mass inoculations.


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## Value Collector (2 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> All it takes is a major war, with the loss of water quality, decimation of sewerage facilities, rotting  corpses, etc and we could well be back to the historical period that spawned mass inoculations.




It wouldn't even take that, the polio outbreaks of the 40's and 50's took place in quite clean cities.


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## cynic (2 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> All it takes is a major war, with the loss of water quality, decimation of sewerage facilities, rotting  corpses, etc and we could well be back to the historical period that spawned mass inoculations.




Yes,  I  can see how that could quite easily happen, but it doesn't actually address the issues I am raising regarding the need for proof of efficacy and safety.


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## DB008 (15 May 2016)

*Ontario parents who object to vaccines could be forced to take a class in science of immunization​*



> Ontario parents will soon have to complete an evidenced-based course in the science of vaccination if they want their children to be exempt from immunization requirements in public schools.
> 
> Health Minister Eric Hoskins tabled a bill Thursday that would, if passed, require any parent filing religious or moral objections to complete a course intended to inform them of the importance of immunization, the dangers of foregoing it and the purpose of “herd immunity.”
> 
> ...





http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/ontario-parents-who-object-to-vaccines-could-be-forced-to-take-a-class-in-science-of-immunization​


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## pixel (15 May 2016)

DB008 said:


> *Ontario parents who object to vaccines could be forced to take a class in science of immunization​*




At last, someone has the brains to realise the obvious: *Education is the key.*


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## cynic (15 May 2016)

pixel said:


> At last, someone has the brains to realise the obvious: *Education is the key.*



Provided that this is a sincere attempt at education (as opposed to indoctrination) and not a pretext for cirumventing one's right to refuse invasive medical procedures, then I certainly find this approach preferable to mandation.

However, I am fearful that this may turn out to be yet another example of one religion asserting dominance over another.


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## Tisme (16 May 2016)

So I decide to get a flu shot on the go. 

I pick a chemist on my journey today and they have been over run with vaccine seekers, but thankfully three kits left.

 "I'll take it" I say, she says "you will need to get a Dr's prescription", I say "wot?!". She says if you go to a Discount XYZ chemist outlet you don't need a prescription", I say "wot?!" and leave.


----------



## cynic (16 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> So I decide to get a flu shot on the go.
> 
> I pick a chemist on my journey today and they have been over run with vaccine seekers, but thankfully three kits left.
> 
> "I'll take it" I say, she says "you will need to get a Dr's prescription", I say "wot?!". She says if you go to a Discount XYZ chemist outlet you don't need a prescription", I say "wot?!" and leave.




So it seems  that the discount pharmacists are true to their name in that they discount the need for a prescription in some instances.

Much as I like seeing people empowered to make their own choices, one might reasonably have expected that prescription regulations would be unilaterally applicable to all retail pharmaceutical outlets.

Unless this event has somehow inspired you to re examine the basis of your decision in the matter, I presume that you are still seeking to vaccinate yourself against flu. I am sure some here (myself included), will be quite interested in reading recounts of your subsequent experiences in these pursuits.


----------



## Tisme (16 May 2016)

cynic said:


> So it seems  that the discount pharmacists are true to their name in that they discount the need for a prescription in some instances.
> 
> Much as I like seeing people empowered to make their own choices, one might reasonably have expected that prescription regulations would be unilaterally applicable to all retail pharmaceutical outlets.
> 
> Unless this event has somehow inspired you to re examine the basis of your decision in the matter, I presume that you are still seeking to vaccinate yourself against flu. I am sure some here (myself included), will be quite interested in reading recounts of your subsequent experiences in these pursuits.




I was under the misconception that Pharmacies could universally stick a needle in my arm, but not so. As my GP is an hour away I will need to go to him and get one of his assistants to bung it into me. No I'm not into self skewering.


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## ggkfc (17 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> I was under the misconception that Pharmacies could universally stick a needle in my arm, but not so. As my GP is an hour away I will need to go to him and get one of his assistants to bung it into me. No I'm not into self skewering.




There are sometimes contraindications to vaccinations as well.. thus the need for the doctor to verify that prior to giving you the script


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## Tisme (17 May 2016)

ggkfc said:


> There are sometimes contraindications to vaccinations as well.. thus the need for the doctor to verify that prior to giving you the script






http://rsvp.chemistwarehouse.com.au/?gclid=COWEn6fc38wCFYRjvAodMdUCmw


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## ggkfc (17 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> http://rsvp.chemistwarehouse.com.au/?gclid=COWEn6fc38wCFYRjvAodMdUCmw




They have a "health professional" there to assess the same things. A doctor can do it as well but they probably employ a more cheaply certified person to do it. (For a lot of complex situations, they defer to the doctor)


----------



## Muschu (17 May 2016)

pixel said:


> At last, someone has the brains to realise the obvious: *Education is the key.*




Totally agree.... There are few of us who would not turn to "medical science" if really unwell.... But there are some who turn to "alternative 'evidence'" when things are dire or to support a minority view.

I am not medically qualified but, when I need to, I turn to practitioners with many years of experience; a sound understanding of the research underpinning their recommendations and actions; and of reputation.


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## Tisme (18 July 2016)

> A special message for all of the people who are against vaccinating their children.
> How many people can remember polio before a vaccine was invented?
> The people in the iron lungs have polio and an iron lung was the only way to keep them alive while they tried to recover. One iron lung on the left shows a small child being kept alive.
> Many victims were crippled for life.
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> View attachment 67467




That is one of the saddest photographs I've seen.

Any response cynic ?


----------



## Knobby22 (18 July 2016)

MEMPHIS, Tenn. ”” A woman who spent nearly 60 years of her life in an iron lung after being diagnosed with polio as a child died Wednesday after a power failure shut down the machine that kept her breathing, her family said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24859306/.../us-woman-dies-iron-lung-after-power-failure/


----------



## cynic (18 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> That is one of the saddest photographs I've seen.
> 
> Any response cynic ?




http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21149823/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/polio-outbreak-sparked-vaccine-experts-say/


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

cynic said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21149823/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/polio-outbreak-sparked-vaccine-experts-say/




*Experts say these types of outbreaks only happen when not enough children are vaccinated. In northern Nigeria, only about 39 percent of children are fully protected against polio.*

It may help if you read your own link.

How many cases in Australia since vaccination began ?


----------



## cynic (18 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> *Experts say these types of outbreaks only happen when not enough children are vaccinated. In northern Nigeria, only about 39 percent of children are fully protected against polio.*
> 
> It may help if you read your own link.
> 
> How many cases in Australia since vaccination began ?




I did read it. Those experts are clearly morons!

Mine. Back the ftse off with your vaccine religion rumpy! Your keystrokes are wasted on me with this one!


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

cynic said:


> Your keystrokes are wasted on me with this one!




Yes, I think you are right there.


----------



## Tisme (19 July 2016)

I'm guessing Cynic is one of those people who believes that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", whereas I'm more on the side of "hard work never killed anyone, but is it worth the risk?".


----------



## cynic (19 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing Cynic is one of those people who believes that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", whereas I'm more on the side of "hard work never killed anyone, but is it worth the risk?".




After my expersonal experiences, I am most decidley not an advocate of the "makes you stronger ideology".

Those whom want to believe in vaccine efficacy probably won't want to google terms like:
"acute flaccid paralysis" or  "vaccine-associated polio paralysis".

It's curious just how easy it is to eradicate a disease. One only has to change it's name. And 'voila' - no more polio, but plenty of new diseases with identical symtoms to take it's place!

Basically the same book with a different title! 

Here's an interesting new "polio-like virus" paralysing children:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3020462/New-study-shows-mutated-Polio-like-virus-responsible-paralyzing-100-children-past-year.html


It is curious how enterovirus D-68 wasn't discovered until 1962!


----------



## DB008 (27 October 2016)

I think Facebook has brought out the idiots in society. Mothers creating Anti-Vax pages and what-not.


*Anti-Vaxxer Mom Changes Mind After Her Three Kids Fall Ill​*


> Kristen O'Meara chose not to vaccinate her young daughters because she was a big believer in anti-vaccination research. That changed when all three were stricken with a case of rotavirus, which causes acute stomach distress.
> 
> "It was awful, and it didn't have to happen, because I could have had them vaccinated. I felt guilty. I felt really guilty," she told ABC News.
> 
> ...




http://abcnews.go.com/Health/anti-vaxxer-mom-mind-kids-fall-ill/story?id=42351543​


----------



## DB008 (8 January 2019)

I think that the worlds Darwin Awards (award for idiots), will have something to do with this...


*Chickenpox Outbreak Hits North Carolina School With High Vaccination Exemption Rate*​
A North Carolina school where a high concentration of families claim religious exemption from vaccines is facing the state’s worst chickenpox outbreak in more than 20 years.

The chickenpox outbreak has affected 36 students at Asheville Waldorf School, health officials with Buncombe County said. The outbreak ranks as North Carolina’s largest since a chickenpox vaccine became available more than 20 years ago, the Asheville Citizen _Times_ reports.

The Asheville Waldorf School has one of the highest rates in the state of families who opt out of vaccines based on religious beliefs, according to data from North Carolina’s Department of Health and Human services. Of the 28 children enrolled in kindergarten at the school during the 2017-2018 school year, about 19 claimed religious exemption from vaccines — a higher rate of exemptions than all but two other schools in the state, according to the Citizen _Times_.

Buncombe County medical director Dr. Jennifer Mullendore drew a link between the widespread chickenpox update and the low records of immunization.

“We want to be clear: vaccination is the best protection from chickenpox,” Mullendore said in a statement. “Two doses of varicella vaccine can offer significant protection against childhood chickenpox and shingles as an adult. When we see high numbers of unimmunized children and adults, we know that an illness like chickenpox can spread easily throughout the community — into our playgrounds, grocery stores, and sports teams.”

While North Carolina requires immunizations for all kindergarten-age students, including the two-dose chickenpox vaccine, it does allow for medical and religious exemptions. Parents who want to claim religious exemptions for their children have to describe their religious objection to immunization in a written statement given to schools and other child care programs in lieu of an immunization record.​
http://time.com/5460215/chickenbox-outbreak-north-carolina/​


----------



## Knobby22 (8 January 2019)

If polio should ever resurface in the U.S. then all hell will occur. Measles can be quite nasty and is more likely.


----------



## Tink (9 January 2019)

*Why Victoria has its worst hep A outbreak in decades
*
A major outbreak of hepatitis A across Europe and the United States has spread to Victoria .

There has been 263 cases here — two fatal — in the worst outbreak since the introduction of modern sewerage.

Hep A is highly contagious and attacks the liver.

Acting Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton told 3AW Breakfast the infection mainly affects men who have sex with men.

“But we’ve also had people who inject drugs,” Mr Sutton said.

https://www.3aw.com.au/why-victoria-has-its-worst-hep-a-outbreak-in-decades/


----------



## funnymoney876 (9 January 2019)

Just get the jab, I say


----------



## DB008 (10 February 2019)

*Anti-vaxxers partly responsible for Europe's*
*highest measles cases in a decade*​Europe had a record number of measles cases last year, in part due to a growing number of pockets where parents are refusing to vaccinate their children, the World Health Organisation (WHO) says.

The WHO also said record numbers of children are getting the vaccine — offering hope the rise in infections may not last.

"Progress has been uneven between and within countries, leaving increasing clusters of susceptible individuals unprotected, and resulting in a record number of people affected by the virus in 2018," it said in a statement.

Measles is a highly contagious viral disease that can cause hearing loss and brain disorders in children and, in severe cases, can kill.

Vaccination coverage needs to be about 95 per cent to prevent the virus circulating in communities to create what is known as "herd immunity".​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02...le-for-record-european-measles-cases/10792440​


----------



## Miner (11 February 2019)

Folks
Reading your postings and the title of this thread, I am seriously interested to know if anyone of you or people you know have seen or met a doctor to cure even partially Autism?
I am using this forum and would go to other forums including LinkedIn alike, to learn this.
I have a close family member, whose parents ready to fly the world over to have a remedy for their daughter from Autism if available.
If you prefer, please PM me
Regards


----------



## macca (11 February 2019)

Hi Miner,

My wife works in disability care and firmly believes that too much sugar triggers so many problems, people she cares for tend to Love bread, Coca Cola, Red Bull, Mother type energy drinks and anything else that is sweet or caffeine loaded.

I would be trying the child/person on a good strong mutivitamin daily, must have strong Vitamin B complex within. I have not tried this with Autism but I Know it works for ADHD as my kids were both affected with that and a lot of behavioral problems are similar.

Naturally, I also severely limited their sugar/carbohydrate intake and it worked really well for both of mine plus three other families that tried it.

Another thing others have tried is all of the above plus Omega 3 oil, usually Krill, as this helps the brain make the right connections

I realise that Dr Mercola is deliberately provocative but he is also up to date with research and writers that disagree with conventional theories. Definitely worth a surf around his website, a link for you https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2018/09/16/how-to-end-the-autism-epidemic.aspx

We live in a smaller area and I know quite a few of the adult kids and their parents that my wife works with, it is a dreadful problem and hopefully it will get more research funding rather than just more sedatives.

In the long run it would save billions on NDIS if they spent a few million in research on diet rather than more powerful pills.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 February 2019)

Miner said:


> Folks
> Reading your postings and the title of this thread, I am seriously interested to know if anyone of you or people you know have seen or met a doctor to cure even partially Autism?
> I am using this forum and would go to other forums including LinkedIn alike, to learn this.
> I have a close family member, whose parents ready to fly the world over to have a remedy for their daughter from Autism if available.
> ...



 I believe it is important to not cosset them and help them make their way in the real world so they can develop their brain and develop coping mechanisms. E.g. go to the library and mix with other kids as the librarian reads stories. Play a sport. Join cubs. Assist as needed. All depends how autistic. Autism has always existed and people have managed to make their way in the past.


----------



## Miner (11 February 2019)

macca said:


> Hi Miner,
> 
> My wife works in disability care and firmly believes that too much sugar triggers so many problems, people she cares for tend to Love bread, Coca Cola, Red Bull, Mother type energy drinks and anything else that is sweet or caffeine loaded.
> 
> ...



Thanks Macca
I would do research and try to reach Dr Mercola as well.
By the way, the person I am searching for some clue of life is 7 years old, developed autism from birth and parents did not realise until she became 1.5 years old, that she developed Autism. They have gone to Singapore to see experts and sugar is not an issue for them as the girl does not even touch chocolate. But each case is different and elimination of probale causes is very important. So thanks again.
Appreciated for your effort to respond to my call. It helps


----------



## Miner (11 February 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I believe it is important to not cosset them and help them make their way in the real world so they can develop their brain and develop coping mechanisms. E.g. go to the library and mix with other kids as the librarian reads stories. Play a sport. Join cubs. Assist as needed. All depends how autistic. Autism has always existed and people have managed to make their way in the past.



Thanks @Knobby22  for your share. Every piece of share is important for the family for whom I am reaching to all of you.
Regards


----------



## macca (11 February 2019)

Miner said:


> Thanks Macca
> I would do research and try to reach Dr Mercola as well.
> By the way, the person I am searching for some clue of life is 7 years old, developed autism from birth and parents did not realise until she became 1.5 years old, that she developed Autism. They have gone to Singapore to see experts and sugar is not an issue for them as the girl does not even touch chocolate. But each case is different and elimination of probale causes is very important. So thanks again.
> Appreciated for your effort to respond to my call. It helps




Hi Miner,

Obviously every one is different and with autism it is such a huge spectrum that many people actually have a mild condition yet live "normal lives" so I do not think it is actually new, I do think it has got worse though.

As with any condition, early intervention helps dramatically, one of my wife's sayings to the newby staff is "find one ability they do have and use that for your base and then build on it"

One success story is a 22 year old man who would sit in his room at home all day every day, when he started to attend the group he would simply sit in the corner and ignore everyone. My wife decided she would get involved and it took her two years but she eventually "reached" him and he now interacts with others both in the group and at home. 

It can be done, but 45 years of experience helps to know how to fine tune what to do with each person.

Quite often the autistic person is quite happy the way they are but Incredibly frustrating for the parents, life altering for them as well as the extended family.

I wish them every success in their search


----------



## sptrawler (12 February 2019)

We have a few of the grand children who have autism, the only common thing we can link, is the use of strong antibiotics when the children were very young.


----------



## DB008 (19 February 2019)

Idiots...


*Father at centre of measles outbreak didn't vaccinate children due to autism fears*​
The man whose family is at the centre of a measles outbreak in Vancouver said he didn't vaccinate his children because he distrusted the science at the time.

In an exclusive interview with CBC News, Emmanuel Bilodeau said he and his then-wife were influenced by reports that linked the vaccine that prevents measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) with autism.

"We worried 10-12 years ago because there was a lot of debate around the MMR vaccine," said Bilodeau. "Doctors were coming out with research connecting the MMR vaccine with autism. So we were a little concerned."

The MMR vaccine prevents measles, mumps and rubella by helping the body make antibodies to fight off the viruses. The BC Centre for Disease Control (CDC) recommends children receive two doses of the vaccine, one at 12 months of age and the second dose at five to six years of age.

There is no scientific evidence linking the vaccine to autism, says the CDC.

Bilodeau said he knows now the link between the MMR vaccine and autism has been debunked.

"We're not anti-vaccination," he said. "We're just very cautious parents and we just tried to do it in the manner that was the least invasive possible on the child's health."

"We were hoping we could find a vaccine that was given in a separate shot so it wasn't such a hit on the kid," he said.​
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/father-vancouver-measles-outbreak-1.5022891​


----------



## fiftyeight (27 February 2019)

@cynic

I am hoping to avoid a conversation on what 'is' or 'truth' or 'science' or .... what ever you are side tracking on today.

Do you support vaccinations as currently prescribed for children in Australia or not?


----------



## Ann (27 February 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> @cynic
> 
> I am hoping to avoid a conversation on what 'is' or 'truth' or 'science' or .... what ever you are side tracking on today.
> 
> Do you support vaccinations as currently prescribed for children in Australia or not?




This is something I thought could only be a problem overseas. I believed (wrongly) that our vaccines were made here in Australia, probably by CSL or some other Australian company with good quality control. Wrong! I am so glad I am not a parent of a young child any longer needing to make this decision. 

*Where are Australia’s Vaccines Made?*

.......Vaccines today, like most pharmaceutical products, are no longer being produced or regulated in the countries in which they are used. There is an extensive international network of production and most Australian vaccines are made in other countries and licensed in the USA where vaccine manufacturers are free from liability for any harm that vaccines cause in humans.

Many vaccines today are being made in China and India and the Australian government does not provide information on its *Immunise Australia Program* (IAP) website describing where Australia’s vaccines are made.

The only vaccines that are made in Australia are some influenza vaccines and Q Fever vaccine that are made by Seqiris – a *CSL company*. All other Australian vaccines are made in other countries and licensed in the US before being approved for the Australian market _under a different name without further testing. _More....


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## Ann (27 February 2019)

_"Professor Brian Martin, Judy Wilyman's PhD supervisor at the University of Wollongong, has written several articles on the strategies being used by lobby groups to deter citizens from speaking against the use of multiple vaccines in infants."_

This is quite an extensive read but if you are up to it, it may be of value if one needs to make a decision about vaccinations.

_*On the suppression of vaccination dissent*

*Abstract *

Dissenters from the dominant views about vaccination sometimes are subject to adverse actions, including abusive comment, threats, formal complaints, censorship, and deregistration, a phenomenon that can be called suppression of dissent. Three types of cases are examined: scientists and physicians; a high-profile researcher; and a citizen campaigner. Comparing the methods used in these different types of cases provides a preliminary framework for understanding the dynamics of suppression in terms of vulnerabilities. 


Keywords: vaccination; dissent; reputation; free speech; controversy _

More....


----------



## Ann (27 February 2019)

Now Pinterest and Youtube are going to gag anyone with a contra view to the autocratic powers that be. No more free speech folks, you will be called deniers and marched out, harassed into submission and gagged.

*Pinterest, YouTube say acting against anti-vaccine messages*

_....Pinterest confirmed to AFP Monday it changed its policy last year with regards to anti-vaccine content, a development first disclosed last week by the Wall Street Journal.


The company said it had started blocking certain searches related to vaccinations and cancer cures last year because results were leading to harmful misinformation.


"We want Pinterest to be an inspiring place for people, and there's nothing inspiring about misinformation," a spokesperson said.


"That's why we continue to work on new ways of keeping misleading content off our platform and out of our recommendations engine."


Besides blocking search results, the site has also barred accounts and removed "pins" that violate its rules on medical disinformation, but the spokesperson was unable to give specific numbers.


YouTube announced Friday it was removing ads on anti-vaccine videos, thus eliminating a key way such videos make money.


"We have strict policies that govern what videos we allow ads to appear on, and videos that promote anti-vaccination content have been and remain a violation of our longstanding harmful or dangerous advertising policy," YouTube said in a statement. More..._


----------



## cynic (27 February 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> @cynic
> 
> I am hoping to avoid a conversation on what 'is' or 'truth' or 'science' or .... what ever you are side tracking on today.
> 
> Do you support vaccinations as currently prescribed for children in Australia or not?



I support the right of parents, to be allowed the freedom, to make informed choices, as to which medical procedures (whether pharmacological, surgical, or other) should be visited upon their children.


----------



## macca (27 February 2019)

My concern is that unlike in the past, today's vaccines are trying to be all things to all children all in one jab, I am aware that there is a series But they are all the same stuff, far too many diseases hitting the still tiny, vulnerable baby all at once.

Up to eight diseases being introduced to the tiny body in a fraction of a second is seven too many IMO.

At the most, let us do perhaps three in each jab so the baby has time to recover its health.

I also think that whoever makes the vaccine Must be liable for any poorly manufactured batch causing problems for children. I would think this liability should last for fourteen years (at least) so we have time to check on the results.

I also Know that the flu vaccination for adults is a crock of ****, every one I know who has this damn thing gets the flu shortly after the jab. 

The flu mutates as it moves around, by the time they make the jab for the flu as it was in Europe, it is has mutated on the way down here and the vaccination is no better than random.

I read that last year it was 10% effective, I hope the Government asked for our money back from whoever sold us that junk.

Studies overseas clearly show that if you pump up the Vitamin D levels it works much better on all flu strains, no need to vaccinate, a better result and it is a LOT cheaper


----------



## fiftyeight (27 February 2019)

cynic said:


> I support the right of parents, to be allowed the freedom, to make informed choices, as to which medical procedures (whether pharmacological, surgical, or other) should be visited upon their children.




Haha

That does not answer my question?


----------



## fiftyeight (27 February 2019)

@Ann, there is no way for me to ever to keep up with the research/bullsh!t that is published.

I instead spend my limited free time finding people I respect and trust. There are obviously floors in this method but I find it the least worst approach.

I have found ZERO reason to doubt these guys, not saying they are 100% correct but they are at LEAST wrong.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/

......Looking forward to @cynic asking what is 'least' or 'zero'


----------



## Newt (27 February 2019)

We're very fortunate in this day and age to have social media and such readily available opinion sources.  It really does save a lot of time not having to resort to the scientific method. 

The sad reality is that with quality information now more readily available than ever before, many have little to no understanding of the science behind immunisation and vaccines, yet stand ready to espouse strong opinions that can sway naive minds through social media etc.

Vaccines aren't 100% effective, but compared to even a few generations ago we and our children are very fortunate to have little worry of dying from smallpox, chickpox, polio, etc etc


----------



## cynic (28 February 2019)

fiftyeight said:


> Haha
> 
> That does not answer my question?



I consider my answer, although indirect, to have been well reasoned and appropriate to the circumstance in which it was raised.


----------



## cogs (28 February 2019)

> YouTube announced Friday it was removing ads on anti-vaccine videos, thus eliminating a key way such videos make money.




Doing a quick search on YT now, all terms related to the 'V' word are 'Pro V'. As a parent myself I find this extremely alarming!
YT censorship has really kicked in, the problem is no one knows any different, they just accept the results as gospel and accurate. Classic fish and bait technique.


----------



## cogs (28 February 2019)

My son has had his vacc's for now, otherwise he would not have been let into preschool or primary school, but I react to vacc's, so I have been on the fence for a while regarding allowing a stranger to inject whatever they wish into my body. 
Facts about ingredients like the below worry me also, published in plain sight on their website.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm
And this displaying the basic list of ingredients per vacc.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf


----------



## Knobby22 (28 February 2019)

Ann said:


> _"Professor Brian Martin, Judy Wilyman's PhD supervisor at the University of Wollongong, has written several articles on the strategies being used by lobby groups to deter citizens from speaking against the use of multiple vaccines in infants."_
> 
> This is quite an extensive read but if you are up to it, it may be of value if one needs to make a decision about vaccinations.
> 
> ...




Very glad your son is protected, the measles epidemic is hitting a few places at present caused by ignorant parents.

As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability.
For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.


----------



## Ann (28 February 2019)

sptrawler said:


> We have a few of the grand children who have autism, the only common thing we can link, is the use of strong antibiotics when the children were very young.




None of your grand children received vaccinations?  My thoughts are that it is easy to blame antibiotics as these are pharmaceuticals which will never be harmed by a bit of bad publicity. 



fiftyeight said:


> I instead spend my limited free time finding people I respect and trust. There are obviously floors in this method but I find it the least worst approach.




The problem with this approach is it may not broaden your knowledge as most people prefer to have their existing opinions re-enforced.  My approach tends to be asking myself where could I be wrong about my opinion and read both sides thoroughly. 

I never do this to win an argument but simply to satisfy myself that whatever decision I make is well thought through. Sometimes I change my opinion through more evidence, sometimes my original view stands. The advantage of being old is you have been fooled once or twice but you get to pick up on the methods used by those trying to hoodwink. 

One important question I always start off asking myself, 'who has the most financial gain from a given outcome?'  If there is big money to be made by one side over the other, then be less trusting of profits point of view.  

My mother was 100% anti vaccination and that was in the 1950s. I was never vaccinated for anything. I got measles and chickenpox but I suffered no negative consequences and got a couple of weeks off school. That had to be a win!

When the time came to vaccinate my two children in the '80s, there was a raging debate about not having vaccinations. Lots of newspaper articles and women's journals with frightening headlines. I never react well to someone trying to frighten me. 

Ultimately, I decided to ask the baby health centre nurse what was the major problem with the vaccines. Being well informed she said there was a triple vaccine injection which had one vaccine which could cause some children to have brain inflammation. She said it really wasn't a vital vaccine and I could have the other two vaccines individually. This was my course of action.


----------



## Ann (28 February 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Very glad your son is protected, the measles epidemic is hitting a few places at present caused by ignorant parents.
> 
> As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
> About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability.
> For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.




My son was vaccinated but they would not vaccinate my daughter as every time they came to the school to do vaccinations my daughter had a cold. I had always been concerned about this as eventually she would get pregnant and didn't want her to be at risk of contracting measles. I kept nagging her and eventually she went to the doctor and had a test, it appears she had plenty of antibodies in her system. Might have come through me when she was breast fed.


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## SuperGlue (2 March 2019)

Miner said:


> Folks
> Reading your postings and the title of this thread, I am seriously interested to know if anyone of you or people you know have seen or met a doctor to cure even partially Autism?
> I am using this forum and would go to other forums including LinkedIn alike, to learn this.
> I have a close family member, whose parents ready to fly the world over to have a remedy for their daughter from Autism if available.
> ...




The latest form of treatment is gut microbiome and fmt or mtt is actually fecal transplant for autism.

James Adams-Microbiota Transplant Therapy for Treating Gastrointestinal Problems in Children w ASD


Sulforaphane from Broccoli Reduces Symptoms of Autism: A Follow-up Case Series from a Randomized Double-blind Study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5672987/

Autism and the Impact of the Intestinal Microbiome
https://quantumuniversity.com/qu/autism-impact-intestinal-microbiome/

For Sulforaphane do a search for Dr. Rhonda Patrick, she 's one switch on person who can go on and on talking.

I have a distant relative who has a daughter with autism, only recently for interest I do a bit of reading though I have not inform them of the above hard to........blah, blah unless they ask, but then.....


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## SuperGlue (2 March 2019)

What your doctor doesn't about b12 can hurt you
You can't live without b12, if left untreated results in death.

Diagnosing and Treating Vitamin B12 Deficiency


Lennon (Austistic symptons) at 28min.
4 patient misdiagnosed/interviews


The surprisingly dramatic role of nutrition in mental health | Julia Rucklidge | TEDxChristchurch
Dr. Julia J Rucklidge
University of Canterbury | UC · Department of Psychology


Julia talks of High dose micronutrients


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## Knobby22 (2 March 2019)

To lack B12 you would need to eat some weird vegetarian diet and avoid fortified cereals. Must be extremely rare.
I love pate occasionally. It is full of B vitamins. Vegemite also is good. I suppose both are rare in the US
That nurse is talking nonsense. The reason folate has been put in many foods particularly in the USA is that too many people don't eat green vegetables. 
Personally I love silverbeet, broccoli, brussel sprouts.


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## cynic (2 March 2019)

B12 deficiency is not so rare as formerly believed, according to this article:
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/2/693S/4596795


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## Knobby22 (2 March 2019)

cynic said:


> B12 deficiency is not so rare as formerly believed, according to this article:
> https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/2/693S/4596795



Interesting, beware vegetarian or near vegetarian diets (chicken only eaters).


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## cynic (2 March 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Interesting, beware vegetarian or near vegetarian diets (chicken only eaters).



Not only that.

Some diseases damage the body in such a way that their body requires far more nutrients than a typical adult as the body is constantly trying to repair the damage continuously inflicted.

Digestive issues can also result in failure to assimilate some nutritional benefits from food.


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## SuperGlue (2 March 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> To lack B12 you would need to eat some weird vegetarian diet and avoid fortified cereals. Must be extremely rare.
> I love pate occasionally. It is full of B vitamins. Vegemite also is good. I suppose both are rare in the US
> That nurse is talking nonsense. The reason folate has been put in many foods particularly in the USA is that too many people don't eat green vegetables.
> Personally I love silverbeet, broccoli, brussel sprouts.




Did you actually watch the whole  doco.?

One does't have to be on vegetarian diet to lack in B12.
Malabsorption and acid blockers are the other causes of B12 deficiencies.

When one is healthy everything is alright.
B12 deficiency creeps on you & u don't know.

What your doctor doesn't know about B12 can hurt you.
Unless you ask your doctor for B12 blood test, they won't do it.

B12 deficiency is common in infants and is accompanied by serious neurological symptoms.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29277311


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## SuperGlue (2 March 2019)

"Nitrous oxide has several uses, including in surgery and dentistry (referred to as “laughing gas”).....
....can cause severe nitrous oxide–induced B12 deficiency.."

I wonder how many surgeons asked their patients to take sublingual B12 supplements after surgery/procedures?

Nitrous oxide–induced vitamin B12 deficiency
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5349816/


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## SuperGlue (2 March 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> _*That nurse is talking nonsense.*_ The reason folate has been put in many foods particularly in the USA is that too *many people don't eat green vegetables. *
> Personally I love silverbeet, broccoli, brussel sprouts.




Not because too many people don't eat green vegetables but.....
"to reduce the prevalence of neural tube defects  (serious birth defects such as spina bifida) in Australia and to deal with the re-emergence of iodine deficiency in both Australia and New Zealand."
It's in the video doco.

"Decrease in neural tube defects since folic acid added to bread" 
https://www.aihw.gov.au/news-media/...ase-in-neural-tube-defects-since-folic-acid-a


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## Knobby22 (2 March 2019)

Not arguing it isn't good to take folic acid supplements if your pregnant.
or if your diet is poor (lack of green vegetables).


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## DB008 (7 March 2019)

*Wisconsin man charged with breaking measles*
*quarantine to go to gym*​A Wisconsin man has been criminally charged with breaking a measles quarantine by leaving his home to go to the gym, according to court documents.

Jeffery Murawski, 57, of Brookfield, was charged Feb. 22 with a misdemeanor count of willfully violating the recommendations of a local health officer or subjecting others to danger of contracting a communicable disease.

His wife, Christine Bennett, 58, was charged with the same misdemeanor for allegedly aiding him in taking actions that could have exposed people in a public place to a communicable disease.

The charges stem from an incident on May 1, 2018, when Murawski was under quarantine in his home "until deemed non-contagious" by Waukesha County health officials or until May 7, 2018, a county court complaint states.

Murawski allegedly escaped his home by hiding inside a car driven by his wife. He went to a gym, although he later told police he stayed only a few minutes because "he felt very guilty and sick to his stomach" for deciding to go out.

He was spotted by an off-duty sheriff's deputy who knew of the quarantine order on Murawski and saw him with a gym bag walking down a street to a parking lot where got in a car driven by his wife, the court complaint said.

A short time later, an on-duty deputy pulled over a car carrying Murawski and Bennett. The deputy asked Murawski, "Aren't you supposed to be at home?" Murawski "put his head down and stated yes and began apologizing profusely," according to the complaint.

Murawski allegedly admitted to breaking the quarantine because "he was going crazy," having had to stay inside since April 26.

The quarantine placed on Murawski was the least-restrictive type possible, according to the complaint.​
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ly-breaking-measles-quarantine-go-gym-n979436​


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## fiftyeight (7 March 2019)

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...s-not-cause-autism-study-once-again-confirms/

The only logical conclusion is that the conspiracy is larger than first assumed.

More 'research' from trusted sources required


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## Joules MM1 (8 March 2019)

@fiftyeight 
there's a doco on netflix "behind the curve" worth your while to watch



> “I’m anti-vaccine, I’m publicly open about that, just because stuff is peer reviewed doesn’t mean it’s true. David Wolfe is a world health expert,” Mr Kingsley said.
> 
> David Wolfe calls himself a nutritionist, *believes the world is flat and claims gravity is a hoax*.




https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...a/news-story/01f9e1c60f9a9fe273f2f695e7ebf514


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## fiftyeight (8 March 2019)

Joules MM1 said:


> @fiftyeight
> there's a doco on netflix "behind the curve" worth your while to watch
> 
> 
> ...




Started watching it the other night, but fell asleep haha. Worth another attempt?


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## Ann (9 March 2019)

*The Association Of American Physicians & Surgeons "Strongly Opposes" Mandatory Vaccines*

_Due to a measles outbreak in the United States, frightened people are pushing an agenda to take an important medical decision out of the hands of parents. They’re calling for federally mandated vaccines. They’re calling for the shaming of parents who have chosen not to vaccinate their children.


*The hysteria is running high, fueled by fear and memes.*


Whether you opt to vaccinate or not to vaccinate, I think we can agree we all want what’s best for our children._

_An important letter was presented last week to the Senate subcommittee that is discussing federal laws that force parents to vaccinate their children. The statement below is from The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, and they have come out strongly in opposition to the possibility of federally mandated vaccines....._


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## Knobby22 (9 March 2019)

No kids have died since 2015. the trouble is herd immunity is lost if too many don't innoculate. It's usually the babies that die as there immune system is still developing.

More recently, measles cases and measles deaths in the United States include:


2000 – 86 cases – 1 measles death (infant)  – endemic spread of measles eliminated in U.S.
2001 – 116 cases – 1 measles death
2002 – 44 cases
2003 – 55 cases – 1 measles death (1 year old)
2004 – 37 cases – record low number of measles cases
2005 – 66 cases – 1 measles death (1 year old)
2006 – 55 cases
2007 – 43 cases
2008 – 140 cases
2009 – 71 cases – 2 measles deaths
2010 – 63 cases – 2 measles deaths
2011 – 220 cases
2012 – 55 cases – 2 measles deaths
2013 – 187 cases (large outbreak in New York City – 58 cases)
2014 – 667 cases (the worst year for measles since 1994, including the largest single outbreak since the endemic spread of measles was eliminated – 377 cases in Ohio)
2015 – 188 cases – got off to a strong start with a big outbreak in California – 1 measles death
2016 – 86 cases
2017 – 120 cases
2018 – 372
https://vaxopedia.org/2018/04/15/when-was-the-last-measles-death-in-the-united-states/


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## ghotib (16 March 2019)

Measles, from a patient's perspective:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...17-why-are-anti-vaxxers-making-the-news-again

Memo to self:  almost time for this year's flu shot.


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## DB008 (26 March 2019)

This one is close to home....

*Measles warning after man visits Brisbane CBD, Valley, Spring Hill*​Health authorities are concerned the latest measles case in south-east Queensland could be the first recent case of a person contracting the disease in Queensland, instead of overseas.


The Metro North Public Health Unit has confirmed a man who was contagious with the disease visited a number of locations in the Brisbane CBD, Fortitude Valley and Spring Hill from March 13 to March 21.​
The locations include-

The Sportsman Hotel, Spring Hill – 8-10.30pm Fri 15 March
Ferny Grove train line Mitchelton to Brisbane Central Station – 1.30pm Sat 16 March
Fitness First Gymnasium, Elizabeth St, Brisbane – 4pm-5.30pm Sun 17 March
Palace Cinemas, James St, Fortitude Valley – 8.30pm-11pm Mon 18 March
Discount Drug Stores, Brunswick St, Fortitude Valley – 10.30am – 11.30 am Tues 19 March and 10.30am – 11.30am Thurs 21 March

Health authorities are urging anyone who was in those areas on those dates who start to exhibit symptoms to stay at home and call their GP for advice.

The current case is the eighth case of measles recorded in Queensland since the start of this year.

Metro North Public Health Physician Megan Young said while they haven’t been able to directly connect the man with any of the other cases, he had not been overseas recently.

“We’re at a bit of a loss as to the source (of the infection) but we’re still investigating that,” Dr Young said.

“Of the cases that have occurred in Queensland this year, this is the first person who doesn’t have an overseas travel history.”

Dr Young said the fact there had been such a cluster of measles cases in the first three months of the year meant the state had “dodged a bullet” up until now by having no secondary infections.

Other than contracting the disease from a known case the man could have contracted it from a previously undiagnosed person, but Dr Young said that was unlikely because measles was so virulent people almost always sought medical attention when they contracted it.

“Measles is still infectious up to 30 minutes after an infected person leaves a room, so it’s possible this person has shared some airspace with an infected person and we haven’t uncovered that yet,” she said.

There were just three cases of measles in Queensland at this time last year, and 14 cases total in 2018, all of which also came from people travelling to countries where measles was an endemic disease.

Early in March, there were two cases in two weeks in south-east Queensland, after one patient visited the Redlands area and another flew to Brisbane on an Emirates flight, leading to a warning for everyone on that plane as well as the Brisbane hotel where the person stayed.

NSW issued a measles alert last week after an adult and a child were diagnosed with the highly contagious disease, while visitors to the Melbourne Grand Prix on March 16 and 17 were also warned of a possible infection risk after a woman was diagnosed with measles.

The latest cases follow outbreaks of the disease in the United States and other countries where it had previously been eradicated.

Measles is considered to have been eradicated as a native disease in Australia by the World Health Organisation by 2005 at the latest, with no confirmed cases of primary infection since 1999.

Dr Young said a standard course of two doses of the Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccine was enough to protect most people from contracting the highly contagious virus.

“Vaccination rates are important; the more people who are vaccinated against measles, the less common the disease is going to be,” she said.

“Obviously people are travelling to countries with measles, and if they’re not checking their immune status before they travel then obviously they are very susceptible to it in a place they are more likely to get exposed.

The symptoms for measles include fever, lethargy, runny nose, moist cough and sore and red eyes, followed a few days later by a blotchy, red rash.

These symptoms can take between seven and 18 days after contact with an infectious person to appear.​

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/na...e-cbd-valley-spring-hill-20190325-p517bl.html​


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## fiftyeight (26 March 2019)

My brain hurts, must be all the vaccinations building up and causing autism.

Or more likely the high level of cognitive dissonance I am feeling.

People are free to make their own dumb decisions (I make many) vs if too many dumb decisions are made immunisation rates drop to levels jeopardising herd immunisation. My cousin included who cannot be vaccinated to for various reasons


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## DB008 (4 May 2019)

Check out these idiots. It's a double whammy...
​*Scientology cruise ship quarantined in Caribbean*
*after measles diagnosed aboard*​​Health officials for the Caribbean island of St Lucia have donated 100 free doses of measles vaccine to a Church of Scientology cruise ship placed under quarantine in port after the highly contagious disease was diagnosed on board.

One case of measles has been confirmed aboard the ship, which has been docked in a port near the island nation's capital, Castries, since Tuesday (local time), according to the island's chief medical officer, Dr Merlene Frederick-James.

"The confirmed case as well as other crew members are presently stable but remain under surveillance by the ship's doctor," Dr Frederick-James said in a video statement, noting the incubation period of measles is 10 to 12 days before symptoms appear.

The St Lucia Ministry of Health ordered the ship to be quarantined.

The restriction came as the number of measles cases in the United States has reached a 25-year peak with more than 700 people diagnosed as of this week, part of an international resurgence in the disease.

Australia has experienced similar outbreaks — just five years after being declared measles free, there have already been 92 confirmed cases this year according to the federal Department of Health.

Dr Frederick-James said the doses of measles vaccines were being supplied to the ship free of charge.

She gave no information about the ship or its origins.

NBC News, citing a St Lucia Coast Guard sergeant, reported the ship is named Freewinds, which is the name of a 440-foot vessel owned and operated by the Church of Scientology.

According to Reuters Eikon shipping data, a Panamanian-flagged cruise ship identified as SMV Freewinds was docked in port near Castries on Thursday.

The ship was headed next to the island of Dominica, the data showed.

On its website, the Church of Scientology describes the Freewinds as a floating "religious retreat ministering the most advanced level of spiritual counselling in the Scientology religion".

Church officials did not respond to requests for comment.

NBC News reported nearly 300 passengers and crew were aboard the vessel, with one female crew member diagnosed with measles.

Public health officials blame declining vaccination rates in some communities driven by misinformation about inoculation that has left those populations vulnerable to rapid spread of infection among those with no immunity to the virus.

The vast majority of US cases have occurred in children who have not received vaccines against measles, mumps and rubella, officials said.​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-03/scientology-cruise-ship-quarantined-due-to-measles/11076872​


----------



## DB008 (6 May 2019)

*Measles: German minister proposes steep fines for anti-vaxxers*​
German Health Minister Jens Spahn is proposing a law that allows for fining parents of unvaccinated children up to €2,500 ($2,800). The conservative lawmaker said he wants to "eradicate" measles.

Parents in Germany who refuse to vaccinate their children against measles would be required to pay up to €2,500 ($2,800) in fines and their children would be thrown out of kindergarten, according to a draft law put forward by Health Minister Jens Spahn.

"I want to eradicate measles," Spahn told the mass circulation _Bild am Sonntag_ paper. "All parents should be secure in the knowledge that their children will not be infected and endangered by measles."

Germany's Robert Koch Institute believes that 93% of children have the necessary immunization. However, this is still short of the recommended 95% rate.

Spahn said the kindergarten ban would help protect children too young to receive any immunization shots.

"Kindergartens have children under 10 months of age, who are too young for vaccinations and are therefore especially threatened," Spahn told the paper.


All by 2020

The bill has a different solution for parents of schoolchildren. Elementary education is mandatory in Germany, so the law would not be able to keep unvaccinated children out of schools. Instead, their parents would be required to pay the fine.

In addition to newborns, there are also older children whose health prevents them from getting immunized, such as organ recipients or people suffering from leukemia. Their parents would need to provide proof of the medical condition that prevents them from getting the vaccine.

By July 2020, other parents who attempt to sign up their children for kindergartens or schools would need to provide confirmation that their children have been vaccinated.

Vaccinations will also become mandatory for employees of hospitals and private medical practices.​

https://www.dw.com/en/measles-german-minister-proposes-steep-fines-for-anti-vaxxers/a-48607873​


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## Belli (8 May 2019)

Hmm, if you think about it, it is one way of using the internet to wage war against a country.


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## Johnwyz (9 May 2019)

There are proven links and complications between excessive vaccinations and babies unable to adjust to the chemicals that vaccines use.


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## Sdajii (9 May 2019)

Johnwyz said:


> There are proven links and complications between excessive vaccinations and babies unable to adjust to the chemicals that vaccines use.




There are proven links to babies getting diseases if they are not vaccinated, and the problems associated with the diseases being tremendously greater and more likely than complications from the vaccines.

Anything comes with a risk, including eating food, drinking water and breathing air. Any medication or surgical procedure comes with risk, but we do them if the net outcome is positive.


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## basilio (9 June 2019)

Came across an excellent story on the history of Small Pox and the vaccines that saved millions of people.

*Smallpox and the photos anti-vaxxers don’t want you to see*
It was one of the deadliest diseases known to mankind and while debate still thrives today, this photo proves one point. WARNING: Graphic

Smallpox killed over half a billion people in the 20th century alone — three times the number of deaths from all of the century’s wars combined.

It began with flu-like symptoms, progressing to an horrendous rash consisting of deep sores, filled with fluid that would blister, ooze, crust and scab over, leaving permanent scars on those lucky enough to survive.

Just one teaspoon of smallpox virus is enough to infect every man, woman and child on earth.

But then a miracle — British doctor Edward Jenner created a vaccine after noticing that the milk maids (the women who milked the cows) who had been infected with “cow pox” never contracted smallpox.

This month marks the 270th birthday of Dr Jenner, known as the pioneer of vaccination who arguably saved more lives than anyone else in history. And yet, despite saving countless lives, he still had to deal with the early “anti-vaxx” movement where in 1796 as well as 2019, the boundaries between opinion and fact are often blurred.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...e/news-story/75ccd330a636a374b2961a724efdeb21


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## cynic (10 June 2019)

According to Forrest Maready, there's a bit more to the story of Jenner, and his efforts to develop a smallpox vaccine, than is typically disclosed by MSM.

But many will likely dismiss his views, on account of his confessed opposition to vaccination.


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## cynic (10 June 2019)

Oops! Turns out there were 5 parts.


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## Knobby22 (10 June 2019)

I thunk we should expose him to smallpox to test his theory. What a load of tosh.

I am sure the American Indians and South American peoples who were badly affected by smallpox would be willing to help.

To say it's because the world is cleaner is such a furphy. I have worked in Jakarta where the water smells and getting any in your mouth will make you sick as the sewerage gets into the water supply.

The world is getting worse for contracting viruses. We are all living on top of each other.


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## cynic (10 June 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I thunk we should expose him to smallpox to test his theory. What a load of tosh...



I quite agree that Jenner should have used himself, rather than children and elderly women as test subjects.

However, it's a bit late for that now! Edward Jenner died almost two centuries ago!

It is to the shame of humanity, that his legacy of fallacious theories didn't die with him.


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## basilio (10 June 2019)

There two reasons to dismiss Forrest Maready's  assertions about the use of  vaccines and small pox

1) It flies in the face of  250 years of proven medical experience in the treatment of smallpox and associated diseases through the use of vaccines (and other medical treatments)

2) Forrest Maready himself is just a lying, self promoting, scammer who happens to be one of the more successful pieces of pond scum convincing people to stop using vaccination and, in effect, killing hundreds/thousands of exposed children.

If you want to appreciate just what sort of lies this creature uses to bang his drum, fill his bank balance and undermine real science check out this analysis.

*Were We Crooked*

The mission of werewecrooked.com was to expose the misinformation of anti-vax profiteer Forrest Maready’s propaganda book, Crooked.

Our mission was accomplished (and then some!)

The website will be closing down in the near future but all the content will be kept in this blog post. Thank you to everyone who supported the website!

https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/tag/forrest-maready/


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## cynic (10 June 2019)

basilio said:


> There two reasons to dismiss Forrest Maready's  assertions about the use of  vaccines and small pox
> 
> 1) It flies in the face of  250 years of proven medical experience in the treatment of smallpox and associated diseases through the use of vaccines (and other medical treatments)



What proof?!!! When was this ever proven, and why was there an evident correlation between, declining smallpox vaccination rates, and declining smallpox infection incidents?
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-...x-and-vaccination#S5CV0166P0_19230712_HOC_265

 Or are these sources, you have chosen to cite, simply playing shoot the messenger, and playing the man, rather than the ball?


> 2) Forrest Maready himself is just a lying, self promoting, scammer who happens to be one of the more successful pieces of pond scum convincing people to stop using vaccination and, in effect, killing hundreds/thousands of exposed children.
> ....



Aha! So it is indeed shoot the messenger, and play the man!
As far as modus operandii go, terribly unoriginal, and certainly not conducive to open exploration of the topic.


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## basilio (10 June 2019)

cynic said:


> Or are these sources, you have chosen to cite, simply playing shoot the messenger, and playing the man, rather than the ball?



 If you or anyone else chooses to read the reference you will find a detailed account of the lies, distortions and cherry picking Forrest did in his book Crooked.

Yes I could have refrained from describing him as a piece of lying pond scum.  But to go back to more professional analysis check out the following.

*Vaccine Post Updates: the Good, the Bad, and the Crooked?*

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccine-post-updates-the-good-the-bad-and-the-crooked/


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## cynic (10 June 2019)

basilio said:


> If you or anyone else chooses to read the reference you will find a detailed account of the lies, distortions and cherry picking Forrest did in his book Crooked.
> 
> Yes I could have refrained from describing him as a piece of lying pond scum.  But to go back to more professional analysis check out the following.
> 
> ...



Basilio, you seem to have misunderstood the target for my criticism.

It was not intended for you personally, it was intended for the authors, of the material, on those blogsites, which you chose to link into your post.

Where in those sites, is the proof of the disease eradication efficacy, of the smallpox vaccine, to be found?

Where in those sites, are the counters, to Maready's recount, of Edward Jenner's misadventures to be found?

Why are those sites predominantly focussed on shooting the messenger?

Why are those sites not, instead, playing the ball, (which could readily be done by discussing the available supportive evidence for their particular viewpoint)?


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## basilio (11 June 2019)

I havn't pasted the whole story but it does get better.
People can make up their own mind about the character of Forrest Maready and the value of his story.

I'm not wasting any more time here.
_____________________________________________________________

False Prophets

Exposing the lies, hate and prejudice of the anti-science cult


Home
*Tag: Forrest Maready*
*Were We Crooked*
The mission of werewecrooked.com was to expose the misinformation of anti-vax profiteer Forrest Maready’s propaganda book, Crooked.

Our mission was accomplished (and then some!)

The website will be closing down in the near future but all the content will be kept in this blog post. Thank you to everyone who supported the website!

*Were our faces always straight?*
We didn’t always have straight faces. If you look back at old photographs from the Victorian and Civil War era, you will be hard pressed to find images of people with straight faces. They all seem to be crooked.

*Is this really true?*
It depends. The problem with truth these days is that anyone can create their own truth. All you need is internet access. (As you’ll soon see.)

*I don’t understand. What is this all about?*

On December 6, 2017 anti-vax profiteer Forrest Maready released a new business venture. He called it “Are you Crooked?”

Forrest posted a video where he explained his “new” theory in a monotone, almost intoxicated/drugged state…for over two hours. At first it seemed like a tasteless parody or a bad opening to an amateur adult film. But on further review, it wasn’t a joke. He was being serious.

Or at least he wanted us to think he was.

If you have a strong stomach you can check it out here.

*So what is this theory that took over two hours to explain?*
People have crooked faces from vaccines.

*Wait, what?*
You heard me.

*But aren’t faces asymmetrical?*
Yes. No human has a perfectly symmetrical face. And even the assumption that bodily symmetry is a proxy for good health has been proven incorrect by multiple studies.

*But what about all the examples he showed of crooked faces from modern times?*
Cherry picked. You can just as easily find examples of those same people without such obvious smirks or crooked features.

*But what about all the examples he showed of straight faces from 100 years ago?*
Cherry picked. As you can see above in my examples or the video. But there’s something else that should be pointed out.

*That people didn’t generally smile in old pictures?*
Yes, and that’s a good point. Because of this, it’s extremely hard to compare photographs from that era. Smiles were rare, smirks were almost non-existent.

But it’s more than that.

*Tell me!*
There’s a HUGE difference in photographic technology between now & then. Older photos required long exposures _with the face relaxed in a position that could be held for long periods without ANY movement._

Older cameras didn’t have powerful zoom lenses, so photos had to be taken from relatively close. Because of this, when the subject looked at the camera, _the eyes would naturally be more converged_ than if the camera was 30 feet away and zoomed in.

*Wait, so there’s a difference in how photographs are taken now?*
Yes. Literally BILLIONS of candid photos are taken nowadays and shared by professionals & amateurs on a daily basis. Developing and printing is not expensive and relegated to professionals or highly motivated amateurs who choose their best photos from negatives to print and share.

Anything can be posted for free, so photos do not need to be culled and chosen according to aesthetic standards of perfection. Needless to say, the bar is very, very low.

*Okay, but what about all this smirking from celebrities that Forrest points out?*
Cultural norms have changed. We’re a more casual society, and we enjoy feeling like even our celebrities are approachable and casual too. _The half-faced grin is considered personable._ We connect more easily with that image than with the more formal aesthetic of film-stars past. Which is why we see it more!

*So you’re saying photos get released today that never would have been 100 years ago?*
We are more accepting of physical differences and interesting quirks. Parents are not likely to be ashamed by a photo that shows their child looking less than perfectly cute the way they were in years past.

*Is this whole “crooked faces are caused by vaccines” idea a new one?*
No. And that’s what makes this even worse. Not only is the theory completely false, it’s not even original!

*So Forrest borrowed the idea?*
Or stole? If he had just borrowed it he would have given credit. In this case he has attempted to pass this off as an original idea, with no mention of who he took it from.

Even now he remains defiant that no part of this theory came from anyone else (even as many of his own followers pointed out who it came from.)

*So who did he borrow/steal it from?*
“Dr.” Andrew Moulden.

*Why did you put quotations around “Dr.?”*
“Moulden claimed several academic degrees, including a medical degree, but he was _not_ licensed to practice medicine anywhere. In fact, there were apparently restraining orders to keep him out of major medical conferences — according to him, anyway.” (_From Rational Wiki._)

*So if he wasn’t a medical doctor, who was he?*
“Andrew Moulden was a germ theory denialist, a conspiracy crank, a 9/11 truther, a failed politician, and a snake oil salesman offering an Internet-based magical procedure that will uncover the true causes of everything from shaken baby syndrome and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) to dementia and Alzheimer’s disease.”

*And his theory about vaccines & diseases?*
Moulden believed that all disease was caused by white blood cells “clumping.” Vaccines cause white blood cells to clump. Therefore, vaccines cause all illness.

He claimed he can prove vaccines cause micro-vascular strokes, which can be seen in…you guessed it…crooked faces.

*And he could diagnose this from a face only?*
“The basic premise was Moulden would ask people to send in videos (or sometimes just photographs) of their children looking at the camera, and based upon eye movements he would diagnose what is wrong with them… for a hefty fee of course. He called this idiocy his “BrainGuard” process, and in order to even submit a video or photographs he required people to hold a “AMassNetwork IMAN-12” membership – which required a paid fee as well.
Here are his own words to describe it:
“_“…we are able to diagnose vaccine injury (including autism and aspergers and Gulf War Syndrome and Gardasil adversity and some learning and language disabilities..from photos alone – conformed by video.. and we are right, on the photos alone, 80% of teh [sic] time..add the video – we hit >95% to 100% accuracy).” ~Andrew Moulden_
(_From the vaccineconspiracytheorist.com_)

*So this was an obvious scam, right?*
Yes. Here was a guy claiming he was a doctor, claiming he could diagnose complicated medical conditions from a photograph alone, and doing all of this for large sums of money.

*So what happened to him?*
He died in 2013. An individual claiming to be his sister posted a Facebook message that said “My brother was Bipolar and it was consuming his life. Drew committed suicide on Monday.”

It was believed he had been off his meds for some time.

*So basically Forrest took his theory from a dead off-his-meds bi-polar quack who was exposed as a con-artist even before he killed himself?*
Basically.

*But surely Forrest added something new?*
Of course. His new twist was to blame the “big-antivax-bad of the month” which in December 2017 was aluminum.

*Aluminum? *
According to Del Bigtree, producer of VAXXED, aluminum is now the “definitive cause of autism.”

*Back up, I thought mercury causes autism according to anti-vaxxers?*
That was a decade ago. Once mercury was removed from most vaccines and autism rates didn’t go down, they moved on.

*You mentioned VAXXED. Wasn’t that entire film about how the MMR vaccine causes autism?*
Yes. And the “conspiracy” to hide the “truth.”

*Is there aluminum in the MMR?*
No.

*Mercury?*
No.

*So VAXXED was wrong?*
Of course. But we knew that a while ago. Speaking of, do you mind signing our petition to get Del Bigtree to apologize to all the families he harmed with that film? It’s time for them to start the healing process.

https://www.change.org/p/vaxxed-com...-del-bigtree-to-apologize-for-his-film-vaxxed
*Is there aluminum in the MMR?*
No.

*Mercury?*
No.

*But now according to anti-vaxxers aluminum in vaccines is what causes autism?*
Among other things, yes.

*So where did this idea come from?*
Besides needing to move the goalposts and find something new to blame autism & vaccines for?

*I thought I was asking the questions here.*
Sorry.

*Please continue.*
There was a recent study on aluminum triggering “autism like symptoms” in mice.

*(sigh) Mice?*
Yeah. I know.
*Who published the study?*
(Sigh) Christopher Shaw and Lucija Tomljenovic, two antivax researchers who have been attempting (and failing) to link aluminum in vaccines to autism for years.

*And what was the response to the study?*
*There wasn’t much time for one because, almost immediately, the authors had to retract it because (*spoiler alert*) they faked the data!*
*
So the study was fraudulent?*
Yes.

*And Forrest promoted this study?*
He did. As did many other anti-vaxxers.
*

Any other new studies he took his theory from?*
(Sigh) Christopher Exley, another antivax researcher who has spent years attempting to prove the dangers of aluminum published a study that found “large” amounts of aluminum in the brains of 5 subjects with autism.
*

What were the levels in the control for the study?*
There were no controls.

*What were the medical histories of the subjects used?*
There were no medical histories given.
*

Vaccination status?*
None given.
*

Who funded the study?*
An antivax group.

So because of these two highly questionable studies, Forrest decided it was time to launch his “new” theory?
In some ways he chose the perfect time. Strike while the iron is hot!

*So what diseases does Forrest blame aluminum and crooked faces on?*
Autism, Bells-Palsy, Crohn’s Disease, Hashimoto’s disease, auto-immune disorders, ulcerative colitis, Fibromyalgia, Parkinsons, Alzheimer’s, Multiple Sclerosis, ALS, Neuroblastoma cancer and “everything in between.”


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## cynic (11 June 2019)

Four simple questions, and little more than gratuitous name smearing, offered in lieu of answers:


cynic said:


> ...
> Where in those sites, is the proof of the disease eradication efficacy, of the smallpox vaccine, to be found?
> 
> Where in those sites, are the counters, to Maready's recount, of Edward Jenner's misadventures to be found?
> ...


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## fiftyeight (18 July 2019)

Fast becoming the most reputable news outlet in Australia

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/unc...RcaIiE31OvUi7ORyehWujnAgN1u_vivwDwjfBEsH8ZJck


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## DB008 (21 September 2020)

The anti-vaxxers are starting to come out of the woodwork now.

Lots of people l talk to are saying they won't get the Covid-19 vaccine when it becomes available. Refuse the get it, no matter what. It's all a Bill Gates conspiracy to control people, etc etc etc....

Anybody else have any similar conversations?


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## IFocus (21 September 2020)

Yes seeing a bit of it around but I think they will have trouble avoiding getting vaccinated as it will become default  mandatory to do lots of stuff such as travel, cross borders etc.

Entry will likely be refused for lots of government buildings, hospitals, schools, many employers will make it mandatory,  services industries,  will likely insist etc.


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## Belli (21 September 2020)

I have a large supply of tinfoil hats for sale.  Special price so get one before they are all gone.

Here is a testimonial from one satisfied customer:


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## DB008 (21 September 2020)

IFocus said:


> Yes seeing a bit of it around but I think they will have trouble avoiding getting vaccinated as it will become default mandatory to do lots of stuff such as travel, cross borders etc.
> 
> Entry will likely be refused for lots of government buildings, hospitals, schools, many employers will make it mandatory, services industries, will likely insist etc.




What l have heard so far is - they will go to a doggy doctor, and get whatever paperwork is needed to be signed, signed.


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## cynic (24 September 2020)

DB008 said:


> What l have heard so far is - they will go to a doggy doctor, and get whatever paperwork is needed to be signed, signed.



In the absence of freedom of choice, one can only hope that you are correct.

After witnessing what happened to Dr Piesse, I fear the availability of this option, if it still exists, is very much under threat.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09...ce-suspended-following-raid-melbourne/8947954


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## orr (2 December 2020)

It's good to see this thread quite...  better for for a whole lot of people

Smallpox . Tetanus . Measels . Mumphs . Dipthyria . Polio . 'Whoopincough' ... the list goes on ... not least pamplona, lowering the incidence of 'anal' cancer( be of interest to a contributor or two here)...

lets keep it that way....


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