# TraderFeed - Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D.



## Ann (19 April 2019)

TraderFeed is a very interesting psychology of trading blog. There are other threads here about this site but they seem to get bogged down into personal opinion. I am hoping just to keep this as a regular upload of his posts without it becoming littered with negativity. It may be of help for beginners more than those who have their own set psychology and style of trading.
_Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D. 
Author of The Psychology of Trading (Wiley, 2003), Enhancing Trader Performance (Wiley, 2006), The Daily Trading Coach (Wiley, 2009), and Trading Psychology 2.0 (Wiley, 2015) with an interest in using historical patterns in markets to find a trading edge. As a performance coach for portfolio managers and traders at financial organizations, I am also interested in performance enhancement among traders, drawing upon research from expert performers in various fields._


*A Formula for Trading and Investing Disaster *


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## barney (19 April 2019)

Ann said:


> TraderFeed
> _Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D. _
> 
> *A Formula for Trading and Investing Disaster *




For the record @Trembling Hand , wherever he is (probably kicking up powder snow down some random slope in Japan)

Anyway, TH was a great advocate of Brett Steenbarger … and whatever TH said, I listened to

Post away Anne …. I doubt you will find any negativity relating to Brett S.


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## Gringotts Bank (19 April 2019)

TH used to mock me endlessly (along with a few others) about the importance of psychology in trading then he changed his mind.  

There was something he said once which captured my attention, but I forgot to copy it down.  The gist of it was that he was quite good at monitoring his emotional state during a trade.  Essential, imo.


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## tech/a (19 April 2019)

Well you won’t
He has a PHD in computer science
Has proven Technical analysis can have an edge.
Uses Python to create systems
Runs $5000 courses.

I’m a bit the same way re psychology 
If your undercapitalised, un educated 
And un disciplined you’ll have psychological issues with trading. 

Being Psychologically ready to trade won’t help undercapitalisation. Lack of education 
You may solve your discipline issues.


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## barney (19 April 2019)

Gringotts Bank said:


> TH used to mock me endlessly (along with a few others) .




I do recall you and he had a few OK Corral moments Gringo ……  as did he and Tech.  

A lot of those "confrontations" created some excellent learning opportunities for all and sundry though.

Years ago I asked TH who he regarded as a useful "educator" regarding trading and he mentioned Steenbarger in this way ….

*He won't/doesn't teach you how to trade ….. he teaches you how to "learn how to trade"*

To paraphrase that for myself …  you have to get the correct foundations in place before you can hope to do any good. As Tech has eluded to, psychology is just one of the foundations.


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## Ann (19 April 2019)

*Four Essential Ingredients of Trading Success *


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## kahuna1 (19 April 2019)

First ingredient ...

Is NOT to pay  $5,000- for a course, or $10,000 for a  program ..... read a few books. I do love the trading record of these people, and in most cases, it is none. Trading, is well covered on U tube for free. So too public library, or buy 5 books for $200- .

Be honest with yourself .... most, in fact 90% of those who trade, loose ,,, of that 90% about half loose everything. Lots of rules, lots that work, lots that  never work for some. Having an ego, if your a trader, where sometimes you get it wrong 80% of the time is dangerous. One can make money, a lot of money even if you loose  80% of the time.

STOP LOSS. CUT LOSSES. *Run profits*. And that's worth $20,000- ... via a course, but the only real rule, trading. Other than that, don't margin trade too leveraged.  Too much leverage is a recipe for disaster. Small losses highly leveraged, lead to exponential destruction of capital and all your assets.

Take care


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## Ann (19 April 2019)

*What Is YOUR Self-Talk? *


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## barney (19 April 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> First ingredient ...
> 
> Is *NOT* to pay  $5,000- for a course




No doubt 90% of Traders would agree with that Kahuna …

On the flip side, and giving appropriate credit, Steenbarger gives the essence of his knowledge on line for free  … or traders can buy a couple of his books for less than $200 ….. 

As you suggest, a couple of decent trading books can be very beneficial.  Of course there is no substitute for experience …. 

In my humble opinion … the best Traders that I've had experience with, seem to be those that initially lost a lot … worked out why they lost a lot …. and then went about constructing a plan/method on how to fix whatever issues they had which caused them to lose a lot

I agree with you ….. *honesty* on why/how/ we arrive at our trading situation (whether that be winning or losing) is paramount to getting better at it  …… 

ie.  Traders *must take responsibility* for their choices/actions …. 

I personally took responsibility about 5 years ago ….. Interestingly, I still consider myself a crap Trader … and probably am compared to many others around here …. however …

For some strange reason I have done ok since I became honest on why I was losing


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## kahuna1 (20 April 2019)

Yep fair enough.


Some quick thoughts on trading or investing, two different things but similar rules.

Prior to psychology, trading and even investing some things are needed. One does NOT self treat a brain tumor, or a tooth cavity. Trading is an art.

Many different ways to trade. Different styles, objectives and so on. As a person who started as a trainee dealer in 1983, some things change, and others, are the same.

*Without an edge, an advantage OVER the market*, trading for a living or investing is NOT something, in my opinion that most should do. Whether that edge be via technical side, charts ... or Fundamental side, via valuation, or by a larger MACRO side, bottom down look at the whole market, WITHOUT an edge, it makes life and investing likely a loss.

*Stick to what you KNOW*. Not what you think you KNOW, WHAT YOU KNOW and understand. Not some idiotic conspiracy theory or view about where Uranium is going to $200- a lb next week.

*Admit defeat EARLY and without remorse*. Taking a loss, if necessary, but learning why you were wrong if necessary. *NO REVENGE trading !*! 

*Diversify*, and this idiotic view by Buffet shared of late NOT to diversify, is, well, just stupid. HE CAN ... buy the whole company and prefers to do so. YOU CANT, and as such, without the resources or experience to see the whole picture, unable to CONTROL the company eventually, without diversification in shares to some extent and putting all your eggs in one, or two or three baskets, the likely hood of a massive draw-down are MASSIVE. Companies don't tell the truth quite often, the CEO is often NOT there for shareholders but themselves, and his job either way, honest companies alike, the CEO will and DOES present a best case 90% of the time so it may be in serious trouble and you .... YOU will be the last to know.

*Too much Diversification, is IDIOTIC*. There is a happy medium between the two and buying an index hugging fund where your buying all the stocks including the DOGS ... ones on fire and unlikely ever to be the value the share is right NOW, is again, after fee;s likely and always going to leave you BEHIND the overall market. IF it were shares, 12-20 is enough in my view to take a hit on the chin where one, or two hit a loss of 25% and you take it, even prior to NEWS coming out. That loss is 25% RELATIVE to the index. You may be the last to know the company has massive issues and if a share moves in the opposite direction to the index overall, your bloody wrong. If they admit their are fleas, EXIT because their is likely fleas and ticks. 

If you HAVE an edge, and your stupid NOT to ...* STICK TO IT LIKE GLUE*. Why the hell would you give UP an edge you have over the overall market ? Most don't have an edge, most when they do, give it up, doing stupid things, buying into peaks and doubling up as it STARTS to fall as opposed to buying into TERROR. *BUY into END OF THE WORLD .... sell into Tulip season*. 

*Stop loss, stop loss and stop loss. *

I could go on, but the psychological side, most fail at and temperament is key. Greed and FEAR are battles one wages, so too ego and stupidity. 

Have fun


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## Ann (20 April 2019)

*Your Energy And Your Environment: Accessing Your Strengths*


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## ducati916 (21 April 2019)

Steenbarger has been around, commenting on trading a long time. I remember him back in 2001 on forums.

That being said, I don't believe that he actually trades. He is a spectator.

The issue [for me] with spectators is: they have a multiplicity of models, strategies, advice, etc, but lack the crucial ingredient which is the [eventual] style of trading that sits comfortably enough in the psych that actually allows you to trade.

Which is to say: if you already trade and were at some point successful, they can point out bad habits that have crept in. If you have never traded, then they can show you a number of different ways to trade, but until you actually trade, it is an open question whether it works for you.

You can be shown any number of profitable trading strategies, none of which you can make work for various reasons. The strategy[ies] that [eventually] work are those that you discover yourself as they will be the ones that leave you with a clear mind when trading and able to function calmly.

It boils down to: some can trade/play golf and some can't [and never will be able to] trade.

jog on
duc


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## Newt (21 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> Which is to say: if you already trade and were at some point successful, they can point out bad habits that have crept in. If you have never traded, then they can show you a number of different ways to trade, but until you actually trade, it is an open question whether it works for you.
> 
> You can be shown any number of profitable trading strategies, none of which you can make work for various reasons. The strategy[ies] that [eventually] work are those that you discover yourself as they will be the ones that leave you with a clear mind when trading and able to function calmly.




Gee that's a good post Duc - worth being a sticky for those starting out.....


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## Ann (21 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> That being said, I don't believe that he actually trades.




He probably doesn't duc, why would he need to other than a bit of hobby trading for fun. He is involved with some of the most important trading companies in the world. Why would he bother, he would just choose the best fund and give them his money. Why stress and spend time trying to make a quid when it would be done for you by the best in the world? I don't think this man is stupid, why on earth would he waste his time trying to do it himself?


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## ducati916 (22 April 2019)

Ann said:


> He probably doesn't duc, why would he need to other than a bit of hobby trading for fun. He is involved with some of the most important trading companies in the world. Why would he bother, he would just choose the best fund and give them his money. Why stress and spend time trying to make a quid when it would be done for you by the best in the world? I don't think this man is stupid, *why on earth would he waste his time trying to do it himself?*




Because (a) he purports to teach others how to do it and (b) pure ego.

We have all had teachers/coaches in various areas of life/academics/sports/etc. There is always, I have found, a significant difference between those that teach/coach on a purely academic basis and those that teach/coach from extensive experience and a certain level of achievement. The latter have always proven more valuable.

It feels good to be able to trade profitably. Looking at his blog, this is a man obsessed with financial markets. I would wager a fairly substantial sum that he [Steenbarger] would love to be able to trade profitably, but can't [for whatever reason]. He has gone to the next best thing, which is involvement in the markets tangentially.

Trading is a practical undertaking. It is not purely abstract and academic. At the end of the day...you must be able to execute when everything has turned to custard. If you cannot, you cannot trade safely and you will at some point, likely blow yourself up.

The point [in trading] that you must reach is...boredom. There is no massive excitement or panic, it is simply business as usual.

To reach that point, requires massive effort, probably measured in years. In the case of 'fundamentals' that effort continues behind the scenes, technicals requires ongoing research and study I'm sure, as do other forms of trading.

The relevant point is however that you must reach a point of boredom. Only then are you calm enough and devoid of any number of bad habits that can [and will] get you in trouble, to trade your methodology successfully.

jog on
duc


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## Ann (22 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> The relevant point is however that you must reach a point of boredom. Only then are you calm enough and devoid of any number of bad habits that can [and will] get you in trouble, to trade your methodology successfully.




So you are suggesting successful people can only be successful once they are bored!?

I fervently disagree with this comment, the most successful people in any endeavour maintain their passion, their focus, their hard work and they seek out the best coaches/mentors/teachers to help them hone their skills.

I have yet to meet a highly successful, motivated person who sits there and says the secret to their success is boredom! Boredom leads to mediocrity, not success.

Boredom is natures way to tell you to get up off your backside and do something else.

A great coach may not be able to sing/play golf/dance/run/swim/trade stocks as well as their tutee but they will be able to coach how to be centred and calm and point out where they could improve and make them better in whatever endeavour they are trying to become proficient and excell. A great coach can make a great success story.


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## kahuna1 (22 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> It boils down to: some can trade/play golf and some can't [and never will be able to] trade.




Oh so true ... and as a trader for a bank for a long time, we had 1,000 applications to any jobs. Interviewed I suppose 20, and hired 4. Of the 4, less than one made it. Some over the years did, but more often than not, people without qualifications, more often from the back office performed better than those with degree's and post grad degrees.

Nowadays, most trading is done via computers, Not humans. In fact, bad news comes out and the idiot savant computer driven systems will see people react to awful news, diabolical in many cases, and destruction of capital in that company is assured over time, the HUMANS who read the news react and sell. The selling stops and computers seeing the weakness, BUY and keep buying and for those who went short, often, markets end HIGHER than their starting point despite reality that the game is over. Higher because the trend following computer, sees its weak on the top side, stop losses triggered by those who went short, triggered and hey presto a market that should be DOWN 25% is only down 5% or in some cases UP.

Trading, logic and dealing with ego, is not possible to teach too much. Despite a very very long trading and investing background, a person with one trade and they made money, often becomes the expert. I certainly despite years in service, and lots of academic stuff, would not presume to ever think I was in control or expert.

Things evolve and not always in good ways. Bend or be broken. Accept defeat and stop loss or perish.


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## ducati916 (22 April 2019)

Ann said:


> So you are suggesting successful people can only be successful once they are bored!?
> 
> I fervently disagree with this comment, the most successful people in any endeavour maintain their passion, their focus, their hard work and they seek out the best coaches/mentors/teachers to help them hone their skills.
> 
> ...





I think you need to re-read the post.

It is the outcome that must be the subject of boredom, not the process. The process, as stated, requires ongoing commitment.

To execute in times of extreme custard, you need to be detached, bored. Then, you will execute and do, whatever it is that needs to be done.

jog on
duc


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## Ann (22 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> I think you need to re-read the post.
> 
> It is the outcome that must be the subject of boredom, not the process. The process, as stated, requires ongoing commitment.
> 
> ...





I can certainly accept the word 'detached' you have used in this most recent post.

Detached - 
dispassionate, disinterested, indifferent, objective, uninvolved, aloof, outside, remote, distant, impersonal, open-minded, neutral, unbiased, unprejudiced, impartial, non-partisan

but never,

Bored-
weariness, ennui, lack of enthusiasm, lack of interest, lack of concern, apathy, uninterestedness, unconcern, languor, sluggishness, accidie, malaise, world-weariness;
frustration, dissatisfaction, restlessness, restiveness;
tedium, tediousness, dullness, monotony, repetitiveness, lack of variety, lack of variation, flatness, blandness, sameness, uniformity, routine, humdrum, dreariness, lack of excitement

Steenbarger is a coach of traders

*Here is a selection of a few of the key qualities that distinguish a good coach from a great coach. Ref.*

Leadership. The goal of great coaching is to guide, inspire and empower an athlete or team to achieve their full potential. ...
Knowledge. ...
Motivation. ...
Knows the Athlete. ...
Consistency. ...
Effective communication skills.

Nowhere does it say the coach needs to be a better player, or even be a player. 

I find it interesting when people try to diminish others who are demonstrably more successful than the critic. It is the 'tall poppy' syndrome. Ego driven I would suspect.


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## Ann (22 April 2019)

Ann said:


> I am hoping just to keep this as a regular upload of his posts without it becoming littered with negativity.




...and wasn't that a false hope from my initial post in this place!


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## ducati916 (22 April 2019)

Bored-
weariness, ennui, lack of enthusiasm, lack of interest, *lack of concern,* apathy, uninterestedness, *unconcern*, languor, sluggishness, accidie, malaise, world-weariness;
frustration, dissatisfaction, restlessness, restiveness;
tedium, tediousness, dullness, monotony, repetitiveness, lack of variety, lack of variation, flatness, blandness, sameness, *uniformity, routine, humdrum*, dreariness, *lack of excitement
*
Bored is exactly what you want/need, as per the available meanings of the word.

jog on
duc


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## ducati916 (22 April 2019)

Nowhere does it say the coach needs to be a better player, or even be a player. 

Quite true.

However, as already alluded to, those that can't, teach, those that can, do.

Now that isn't strictly true and there are [and will be exceptions] but, in the markets, I simply don't buy into the fact that someone who doesn't trade, is fully qualified through applying psychological counselling, to fix the issues a failing trader has.

Yes, improve an already successful trader;
Yes, help a formerly successful trader recover from bad habits fallen into;
Yes, take someone on the verge of profitability to profitability;

No to taking a failed trader from failure to success.

The issue for me therefore is this: in theory, trading the markets is simplicity itself. There are many successful strategies. Many are very easy to implement [once discovered or taught] yet, successful traders are not in the ascendancy. Why?

In part, because, as simple as [theoretical] trading is, actual trading is very difficult. Unless Mr Steenbarger is a successful trader, he has nothing to offer when you are actually in the trenches.

When someone is shooting at you, the advice [theoretical] would be duc, hide behind something solid, get away.

What often happens is, people freeze and get shot. You see this in many other emergency situations, people freeze, deer in the headlights syndrome. While trading is not terminal in this sense, it is the same [similar] feeling, especially early on. Some can overcome this, others cannot. Those that cannot, should not trade.

jog on
duc


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## ducati916 (22 April 2019)

I find it interesting when people try to diminish others who are demonstrably more successful than the critic. It is the 'tall poppy' syndrome. Ego driven I would suspect.

Now you are simply being silly.

jog on
duc


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## ducati916 (22 April 2019)

Ann said:


> ...and wasn't that a false hope from my initial post in this place!




If you don't want any comments, discussion or alternative viewpoints, fine.

jog on
duc


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## Ann (22 April 2019)

..and now a bit of positivity from the Man...! 

_*Finding Your Transformation*
Consider:  role models are everywhere.  We can find positive role models who inspire us, or we can find negative role models that so fill us with disgust that we're able to do what Courtney does at the end of her song:  turn our backs, throw up our hands, give a little "mwah", and move in a different direction.  

There is a lot of positive that can be derived from negative role models.  Utilizing the deformation of negative role models as positive life motivation is the ultimate transformation. 

*Awakening Your Talent *

When we access our strengths--what we do best--we gain access to what we call the "zone" or the flow state.  In that state, we tap into parts of ourselves that are relatively submerged during normal, day-to-day life.  

In a very important sense, when we are in sync with our talents, we become different people.  I couldn't agree more with Market Wizard Ed Seykota when he pointed out that great traders have absorbed their talent:  "They don't have the talent--the talent has them."

Good traders have talent--and skill and motivation and discipline.  But great is a different beast.  It's when the talent drives everything and the performer becomes a channel for his or her strengths.  When the talents have us, we are transformed.  Success depends upon our ability to effect that transformation: to go from the good to the great.


*What Is YOUR Self-Talk?*

...How we process the world--and how we talk to ourselves about ourselves and world--shapes our reality.  That, in turn, defines what we experience as possible and impossible and shapes our actions.  Nowhere is this more true than in trading, where we are constantly dealing with issues of being right and wrong, uncertainty, and making/losing money...

...It's great to reassure ourselves, accept losses, and find learning lessons in our setbacks.  That is necessary for a solid trading psychology, but is it sufficient?  *If our self-talk is not intensely challenging, how will we intensively tackle new challenges?*  A calm mindset is helpful at times, but sedentary calm will never rouse us to do better, do more, and throw ourselves into challenges that expand who we are and what we can do.  

How inspiring and challenging is your self-talk?_


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## Ann (22 April 2019)

*The Fallacy Behind Conventional Trading Psychology *

_.....We hear it all the time:  trading is mostly a mental game, all you need to do is tame your emotions once you have a winning trading method, etc. etc.

Total and complete bullsh*t...

If markets were stable and discipline could sustain profitability, then backtested trading systems would forever remain profitable.  There would be no need for discretionary traders whatsoever.... 

...When the market slows down, we have fewer data points.  When the market is less volatile, the standard deviation units represent less movement.  The chart is one way to standardize price action--make it more stable--given shifting activity and volatility.  Thus standardized, we can ask intelligent questions about trend, the presence/non-presence of stable cycles, etc.  Those questions can help us frame trading strategies in the midst of market changes.

When we do so--perhaps by relying on a repeating cycle to enter/exit trades in the direction of the overall trend--we have a clearer idea of what we're doing and why we're doing it.  That anchors our understanding and our trading decisions and, thus anchored, lo and behold:  trading becomes less emotionally fraught......


*Taking The Ego Out Of Trading*


...What we attach our egos to controls us.

If trades and trading are our only activities filled with purpose, we will overtrade.  If we judge our success and failure by profits and losses, our moods will rise and fall with market conditions.

It sounds so great:  the "passion" for trading.  Too often, however, that belies an ego-attachment to trading...

 A great first step in taking the ego out of trading is evaluating our trading by process criteria, not by profits and losses alone.  If we focus on placing good trades, our trading can build mindfulness, intentionality, and resilience...  

...At the end of the day, however, trading cannot sustain us always, in all ways.  We need not just the pleasures, victories, and gratifications of the ego, but also the energy, connectedness, and fulfillment of the soul.  It is amazing how much easier it is to tackle trading challenges when trading is not burdened with needs it was never meant to fill.

The question is not simply whether we live a successful life or an unsuccessful one.  The question is whether we live a full life or an empty one.

*Navigating Turmoil and Opportunity in Markets*

In life we find that periods of turmoil are often the periods of greatest growth and development.  Psychologically, turmoil shakes us up and challenges our assumptions.  That opens us to new experiences and major life changes.  My marriage (going on 35 years strong) came after a period of personal and career turmoil; those taught me what I needed in life.  Similarly, it was the sting of losses I took in markets in the early 1980s that led me to re-evaluate my trading and take a more promising and profitable quantitative direction.  From a spiritual perspective, our task is to find the opportunity in turmoil..._

_...So that is our challenge during periods of turmoil.  To win the game, we have to stay in the game.  That requires prudence.  But to truly win, we have to use turmoil to find opportunity.  That requires optimism, resilience, and vision.  A solid business plan addresses threats and opportunities...we may be entering a period replete with both.
_

_*Beyond Coping: The Inspiration Mindset*

...During periods of flat performance or drawdown in markets, trading can feel like an exercise in coping.  I recognize this when I speak with traders and hear nothing of the excitement, challenge, discovery, and growth that initially attracted them to markets.  It is like speaking to a person who was once in love and now copes with a relationship that has lost its romantic spark.  The trader may choose to work on problem A, B, or C, but it's all just different deck chairs on the Titanic.  The problem is not A,B,or C, but the devolution to the coping level.  The problem is the absence of inspiration:  the way in which trading has become divorced from value, meaning, and purpose.

Traders who sustain an inspiration mindset find value and meaning in markets above and beyond recent performance.  They discover new opportunities through research; they learn new things in their professional networks; they benefit from developing teams and mentoring up and coming talent; they use their trading as a way to develop themselves as people.  To sustain an inspiration mindset means figuring out how to make negative P/L days winning days in process terms.  

Coping and inspiration mindsets are self-reinforcing.  Others respond to the energy we project.  If we come across as inspired, others are attracted to the meaning and fulfillment we radiate.  If we are absorbed in coping, our negative vibe will attract a very different tribe. _


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## barney (22 April 2019)

Just to keep the thread in perspective … Brett Steenbarger did and has traded …. He was most active in the late 90's and almost exclusively traded the S and P.

He states in interviews that as he became employed to "teach" other traders it became impractical to hold and manage positions while he was trying to "educate" others.

As late as 2006 he was still trading the ES when possible but more like a "sniper" waiting for opportunities rather than trading volume for the sake of it. 

Obviously being a successful Coach was less stressful and more lucrative without the associated risks so I guess his transition was a natural progression.

I don't know if he still trades actively but I doubt he needs to

He has always stated:

"only trade with money you can afford to lose"
"proper money management is the best psychological stress management technique there is"
"having multiple income streams is important" and trading is just one of those, and in his case certainly not the most important in his life. … 

In a nut shell, its all about context and balance … makes sense to me


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## Ann (22 April 2019)

barney said:


> Just to keep the thread in perspective … Brett Steenbarger did and has traded …. He was most active in the late 90's and almost exclusively traded the S and P.




Thanks barney, thought this was the case but didn't want to make a false assumption.

Quoting ducati916 from an earlier post..

_Bored-
weariness, ennui, lack of enthusiasm, lack of interest, *lack of concern,* apathy, uninterestedness, *unconcern*, languor, sluggishness, accidie, malaise, world-weariness;
frustration, dissatisfaction, restlessness, restiveness;
tedium, tediousness, dullness, monotony, repetitiveness, lack of variety, lack of variation, flatness, blandness, sameness, *uniformity, routine, humdrum*, dreariness, *lack of excitement
*
Bored is exactly what you want/need, as per the available meanings of the word.[/QUOTE]_

Skate clicked a like to Duc's post so I am guessing he agreed with the sentiment as well.

I can't imagine what a spiritually, psychologically or emotionally crippling mentally this must be for those two people! 

At the risk of taking this off topic, let me describe how it feels for me to make a trade....

I find a stock I am interested in for whatever reason, then I get in deep and meaningful with the chart and look at it in all angles and over all time frames. Then I look at the company, who they are what they do, who runs it, does it pay a dividend, what is the overall influence in a more macro sense and then as much as my ability with FA will allow with figures, which is limited because I don't trust historic figures anyway.
By this time I have a kind of intimacy with the stock, I know when I want to enter, I can see where there are support lines, I can see where there may be a potential retrace or overhead resistance. It is much like entering into a relationship. This is the tingly time of anticipation when all you can see is this stock, everything else pales.
Then the day comes when I work out the trade in dollar terms, choose how many I am going to buy and place the order, it is time for the entry. The feeling as that stock becomes mine is almost orgasmic. I am in heaven for the day, in love as it were. When our partnership commences, some times it gives me total satisfaction with a big rise, other time it teases me and slips down looking at me coyly, tricked you it says! I look back saying....I can wait! 

When it is time to part, we both know when it is over, I thank it for the time we had together, what it has given me and wish it well for the future, knowing we will never be together again. As it slips off my screen into another's hands I feel a peaceful relief.

If you are new to trading, I can only wish you have as much pleasure as I have had over the last couple of decades of trading, it is the most pleasurable and exhilarating experience and my words can never do justice to the feeling I get. Boredom would be the very last emotion I would ever experience in the markets, if this emotion ever happened to me as a trader, at any time within the whole process, I would immediately stop trading the markets. I love the markets with a passion.

Is there anyone else who has a love and a passion for the markets who would love to share their _positive_ emotions with a trade?


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## Gringotts Bank (22 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> However, as already alluded to, those that can't, teach, those that can, do.




Yes because playing is one skillset and coaching is another.  If you asked Tiger Woods how to hit a good ball, he wouldn't have a clue because his cognitions would be completely removed from his muscle memory.  It has to be this way.  If you start thinking, you're dead.  Trading is the same - you don't want to be thinking, you want to be 'in the flow' and doing.  Any thinking must be done after market.

Woods' coach would have enough physical talent to relate to an elite athlete, but importantly, he would have adavnced observation skills, insight and an ability to cognize these.  With these he can make useful suggestions to Woods.  Top athletes don't employ coaches for no reason.  They are too expensive.

I do the trading and my own self-coaching.  They are completely separate activities.  One thing I absolutely _don't_ want to be is bored.  The single most important thing I have found (in terms of creating profit) is to have my mood pumped and to feel enthusiasm.


----------



## ducati916 (23 April 2019)

barney said:


> Just to keep the thread in perspective … Brett Steenbarger did and has traded …. He was most active in the late 90's and almost exclusively traded the S and P.
> 
> He states in interviews that as he became employed to "teach" other traders it became impractical to hold and manage positions while he was trying to "educate" others.
> 
> ...




Here is an article outlining Steenbarger's trading career:

http://www.fxtradermagazine.com/forex-training/Brett-Steenbarger-interview.php

He doesn't state how successful he was 1982 - 1990, when it appears he gave up trading for coaching.

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (23 April 2019)

The short point is this:

There are many ways to be profitable in the market.

If you find one and are [very] comfortable with it, almost by definition, you will execute it well [your methodology]. 

If you are given a profitable strategy [methodology] and you fail with it, almost by definition, you will be executing poorly. It is in this scenario that Steenbarger operates. The system is profitable. The trader is the weak link. Can psychological intervention/coaching/etc, turn this chap around?

In other words is it the chicken or the egg? Nature or nurture?

My argument is: the trader is pretty much doomed, because, for whatever reason, he is not comfortable with that methodology. Until he finds, or is given a methodology that gels with his psych, he is fighting a losing battle.

Many prop shops have a number of strategies that they employ. You have to use one or more of them. It is in this type of environment Steenbarger also operates. Trying to improve their [traders] execution of [presumably] profitable strategies.

His blog [I'm guessing] is an extension of this work for private traders.

The takeaway: no amount of coaching/psychological intervention will help if you are trading the wrong system/style for you. If it is not a natural fit, you will constantly fight it. Then, at the points of major melt downs, you will likely crumble [again].

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (23 April 2019)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yes because playing is one skillset and coaching is another.  If you asked Tiger Woods how to hit a good ball, he wouldn't have a clue because his cognitions would be completely removed from his muscle memory.  It has to be this way.  If you start thinking, you're dead.  Trading is the same - you don't want to be thinking, you want to be 'in the flow' and doing.  Any thinking must be done after market.
> 
> Woods' coach would have enough physical talent to relate to an elite athlete, but importantly, he would have adavnced observation skills, insight and an ability to cognize these.  With these he can make useful suggestions to Woods.  Top athletes don't employ coaches for no reason.  They are too expensive.
> 
> I do the trading and my own self-coaching.  They are completely separate activities.  One thing I absolutely _don't_ want to be is bored.  The single most important thing I have found (in terms of creating profit) is to have my mood pumped and to feel enthusiasm.




In this post, we get to the nub of the problem.

Elite golfers, tennis players, swimmers, whatever, already know how to hit balls, swim, etc. If they didn't they most certainly would not be where they are. They can execute [to a high standard] the skillset required.

Coaches of elite athletes do not teach them how to hit/swim/etc. They ensure that mentally they are ready to compete day-in-day-out at the level they require to win against other athletes of similar talent and skills to themselves.

Competing at the top of any sport or endeavour, is exhausting mentally. That is the purview of the coach, maintaining that mental strength. Not teaching them how to hit a golf ball etc, viz execution.

Steenbarger is the equivalent for traders. He helps maintain [good/elite] traders mental strength in competing against other traders and or the markets. They already know how to trade. They can execute. Losses, in this sort of environment can [and do] sap mental energy. They drain confidence. Before too long, a good trader can have a confidence issue that impairs his performance. It is this environment that coaching can work.

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (23 April 2019)

Ann said:


> I can't imagine what a spiritually, psychologically or emotionally crippling mentally this must be for those two people!




I thought it was about making money.

jog on
duc


----------



## kahuna1 (23 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> My argument is: the trader is pretty much doomed, because, for whatever reason, he is not comfortable with that methodology. Until he finds, or is given a methodology that gels with his psych, he is fighting a losing battle.
> 
> Many prop shops have a number of strategies that they employ. You have to use one or more of them. It is in this type of environment Steenbarger also operates. Trying to improve their [traders] execution of [presumably] profitable strategies.
> 
> ...




Well I your this view on the trading person .... , and I read this persons CV ...    three different versions of it !!!


I loved this quote ... from one version ...* In very late 1990, I was reading an online column written by Victor Niederhoffer .... *My favorite movie was ANIMAL HOUSE ... and Douglass Niederhoffers brother was called Victor. Douglass was the cruel guy who had the horse in the movie.

I read Mr Steenburgers .... views and even his trading blog, it was amusing and a display of wrong calls that astounded me as to their lack of understanding of WHAT drives markets, valuations and even basic monetary and fiscal policy.

Now I know why he needs multiple income sources.

BS .... Quotes ...
*Skills that make a professional trader very successful begin with recognizing market patterns.*

It goes on and on about charting ... whilst I use it, if I purchased a worthless stock WITHOUT knowing its underlying valuation .... I would be an idiot paying $1.00 for a stock worth 1 cent ...

Maybe the patterns he alludes to are ... the fabric of clothing ?

He goes on and on ...
*retail traders need training in recognizing patterns in markets more than they need psychology.*

I found a pattern book so I can recognize what dress a woman is wearing and it helps greatly with reading the rest of his interview and blogs.


Bottom line, look at the Fortune 500 or Forbes rich list or the BRW rich list and if you find a chartist .... on any of them ...  good luck.

I am trying NOT to be rude about this person, and having the ability to read ... his drivel ... I came off wondering if he was going to sell me a secret trading pattern book ... to his secret secret system ... that has him needing to have multiple income sources since it ... works ... NOT


----------



## tech/a (23 April 2019)

Do you really need to be on BRW's rich list?

To be successful do you really need to trade for a living?

*Everytime* I see an educator mentioned on ASF they end up being
canned. Everyone of them. So How do you learn? 
When can you offer something up?

*How did you learn* (anyone can answer this question).

Personally if I think someone has something to offer then Ill pay them 
to gain from them what it is I think they have that Id like to learn or gain.
Some pan out others don't.
My choice. I learn by learning or *NOT* learning!

If I have something someone perceives has value to them and offers to pay for it
I MAY (Never have yet) take up that offer. Why wouldn't you in any field.

My boxing coach boxed professionally and lost more fights than he won. I payed
him to learn boxing--- was his skill less valuable?
Since then MMA came around and exponents of Krav Maga. Deadly. On the 
street Id rather be proficient at Krav. So I pay to learn. Is my boxing coach less valuable?
He doesn't practice Krav!


----------



## barney (23 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> He doesn't state how successful he was 1982 - 1990, when it appears he gave up trading for coaching.




Thanks for the link Duc.

I've read a couple of his Interviews … He was like many traders … He lost a lot early and went on a quest to find out how to stop doing that.

By the late 90's he was very active and I assume he was doing ok given large organisations were happy to pay him to Coach …. He states he traded with a large account but traded with minimal risk/smaller positions to keep stress to a minimum.

For me ….. it was more the fact that @Trembling Hand was an advocate for many of Steenbarger's approaches which gives him credibility. I have no idea how successful BS was, but I know how good TH was when he was kicking around ASF. 

Many years ago I watched TH turn a $1000 account into just under $20K in 4 days trading Futures …. (in his spare time) ..  Obviously TH learned his craft over many years from many sources, but he told me that Steenbarger was a useful resource as part of that learning process.[/QUOTE]


----------



## kahuna1 (23 April 2019)

tech/a said:


> So How do you learn?
> When can you offer something up?




Sorry did not mean to offend.
Each to their own. I note your a tech trading guy, and YEP I use it ,,, but mixture ...

I have offered a few ideas on this thread.
Sadly, whilst I accept your comments about teachers and so on being bagged, its a sad reality someone with your experience knows well.

There is no secret technical trading system that ensures profits every time. There are I suppose more than 10 million people trading shirt term globally, searching for this. 

Having seen the likes of some of these educators and system sellers, some worse than others, the amount some have paid, for utterly useless stuff is astounding.

I shared some of my background, since 1983 ... and how did I learn ? ... over a very long time and what I thought I knew .... was convinced I knew ... to be correct ... often now is the total opposite of what is factual.

Life is like that. Buying on breaks, technically, is I suppose the opposite to my views. I prefer to have some idea of potential value of a stock, buy into fear and mayhem ....

each to their own. *Apologies for offending*.

I think I have a few things on this thread, about views and sharing better and more profitable investing and even short term trading.

Number one as always is stop loss.


----------



## tech/a (23 April 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> Sorry did not mean to offend.
> Each to their own. I note your a tech trading guy, and YEP I use it ,,, but mixture ...




No offence taken. Its a genuine Question.



> I have offered a few ideas on this thread.
> Sadly, whilst I accept your comments about teachers and so on being bagged, its a sad reality someone with your experience knows well.




Yes I get that but are you saying specifically Brett is in the snake oil sales man batch?
His PHD in psychology has no relevance---there is nothing for traders to learn from him
because he DOESNT TRADE. So someone who trades with no PHD in Psychology is better
qualified?



> There is no secret technical trading system that ensures profits every time. There are I suppose more than 10 million people trading shirt term globally, searching for this.




Nor is any fundamental trading method a guarantee either. Sure less that 5% find it. It is there though!!



> Having seen the likes of some of these educators and system sellers, some worse than others, the amount some have paid, for utterly useless stuff is astounding.




Yes I've seen them. Stood up in a crowd of 350 people at one and asked about 4 awkward questions to the presenter of a $15,000 Options course--The room eventually turned against me
And were lined up to part with $15,000



> I shared some of my background, since 1983 ... and how did I learn ? ... over a very long time and what I thought I knew .... was convinced I knew ... to be correct ... often now is the total opposite of what is factual.




I would suggest you could be profitable just like a bush pilot can fly---but Id also suggest you could gain a lot from experts
even if indirectly related to the way you trade.



> Life is like that. Buying on breaks, technically, is I suppose the opposite to my views. I prefer to have some idea of potential value of a stock, buy into fear and mayhem ....




Well Im yet to see a prolonged move that did'nt start from a Breakout! I find "Potential" value to be as subjective as T/A!



> each to their own. *Apologies for offending*.




as above.



> I think I have a few things on this thread, about views and sharing better and more profitable investing and even short term trading.
> 
> Number one as always is stop loss.




Strangely over time My stop loss has become a tool for position sizing.
It moves mostly daily until its at B/E.
I use it to improve my R/R


----------



## kahuna1 (23 April 2019)

tech/a said:


> I would suggest you could be profitable just like a bush pilot can fly---but Id also suggest you could gain a lot from experts
> even if indirectly related to the way you trade.




Okey dokey ...

I did hit a raw nerve.
I don't trade, I did once, the start of my career, don't need to .. or desire to trade as such.

Each to their own .. as to experts, ... if only you knew.

Seemingly, you know who and what I am. If I have only had one job, one art since 1983 ... maybe ... maybe ...  36 years latter, no other industry or profession, maybe ...  I am slightly different to what you believe you think you may know about me.

Hilarious.


----------



## tech/a (23 April 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> Okey dokey ...
> 
> I did hit a raw nerve.




??  The above suggestion implies Im offended? How?



> I don't trade, I did once, the start of my career, don't need to .. or desire to trade as such.




Similar.



> Each to their own .. as to experts, ... if only you knew.




Please what is it I should know?



> Seemingly, you know who and what I am. If I have only had one job, one art since 1983 ... maybe ... maybe ...  36 years latter, no other industry or profession, maybe ...  I am slightly different to what you believe you think you may know about me.




I have no idea who or what you are. Perhaps if I did-----------
I have no opinion of you.



> Hilarious.




As you say each to there own--I don't see the hilarity I'm afraid.


----------



## kahuna1 (23 April 2019)

tech/a said:


> I don't see the hilarity I'm afraid.




Sadly I do. That is enough. 

Take care


----------



## tech/a (23 April 2019)

Can someone shed some light on this 
I'm completely in the dark here.
Perhaps P/M me.
Thanks


----------



## ducati916 (24 April 2019)

Looking at the examples provided in this thread so far, most, deal with the process of trading: ie finding a profitable methodology. Few of the examples deal with 'psychology' per se.

The thing is this: his [Steenbarger's] repertoire of trading strategies [seems] limited. Not everyone will gel with a purely technical approach to the markets.

So here we return to the same problem as initially highlighted. It is not the methodology that is the problem for traders: it is their ability to execute. Take the famous 'Turtle' experiment: profitable methodology provided. Rules explained in detail. Money provided. Only 1 or 2 actually capitalised on the opportunity.

Execution.

Execution is another word [in this context] for psychology.

The methodology has to be built to the psyche. You will not [or only very rarely] build a psyche to the methodology.

Here are some of the links provided so far on this thread:

https://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2019/04/a-formula-for-trading-and-investing.html

Methodology.

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2019/04/four-essential-ingredients-of-trading.html

Methodology

https://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-fallacy-behind-conventional-trading.html

Methodology.

https://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2019/02/taking-ego-out-of-trading.html

Psychology.

https://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2018/12/navigating-turmoil-and-opportunity-in.html

Methodology

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2017/07/beyond-coping-inspiration-mindset.html

This is just twaddle.

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (24 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> If you are given a profitable strategy [methodology] and you fail with it, almost by definition, you will be executing poorly. It is in this scenario that Steenbarger operates. The system is profitable. The trader is the weak link. Can psychological intervention/coaching/etc, turn this chap around?
> 
> 
> duc




Actually this on the evidence provided through the links, I am incorrect.

Steenbarger does not seem to address the trader psychology as much as he actually seeks to educate them to his style of trading [whatever that actually is].

This is even worse than first indicated. At least [academically] his area of expertise is psychology. It would seem however that he is a 'trading' coach in the context of methodology. If that is the case, then he really operating outside of any area of expertise and his trading record is very much a live question.

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (24 April 2019)

tech/a said:


> Do you really need to be on BRW's rich list?
> 
> 1. To be successful do you really need to trade for a living?
> 
> ...




1. Clearly the answer is no.

2. I don't follow this topic closely [at all], but my guess would be that they do not reveal all. They tend to hold back [if they have a legitimate edge] or, they have no edge worth anything in the first place.

3. Books, practical application, school, mentors, coaches, in no particular order.

4. Yes. No issues.

5. Yes. But you must have a legitimate skill to sell. It must fulfil their requirement of purchase.

6. As a novice, your coach knows more than you. If you were seeking [aspiring] to turn pro, would he still be your coach, or, would you seek someone at that level? Once you reach the level of your coach, or exceed him, generally you need to move on.

jog on
duc


----------



## kahuna1 (24 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> If that is the case, then he really operating outside of any area of expertise and his trading record is very much a live question.




This is the issue for me. You have hit the nail upon the head.

 I learnt not by sitting next to the worst trader, or copying the lowest least profitable one, I did the opposite, whist working inside my own strengths and abilities. 

Being taught to play the piano by someone who cant play the piano, is in itself idiotic.

Becoming the next Mozart, even a decent piano player, is unlikely when being taught by a plumber who  cant play. 

We are NOT talking about coaches in sport, and I am sure Tiger Woods does not take tips on his golf swing from his hairdresser.  

I did take the time to read this persons trading blog. His versions of his CV. 

Being honest, as I was, offended some. Such is life. 

Some people find meaning and direction from the strangest of places.

Who of what I am is irrelevant, as always. Opinions as to that, are as they say, like assholes, everyone has one, an opinion and like assholes, everyone else's stinks. 

Sorry for the spelling but I am sure ... using the correct spelling will raise red flags.


----------



## barney (24 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> Steenbarger does not seem to address the trader psychology as much as he actually seeks to educate them to his style of trading [whatever that actually is].




I've listened to a bit of his stuff and I have always thought his approach was more psych orientated. 

His "style" I guess given his Interviews is based around treating trading like a "performance" ….. He states traders need to practice their skills, recognise their weaknesses and constantly review and journal their successes and losses. 




ducati916 said:


> 6. As a novice, your coach knows more than you. If you were seeking [aspiring] to turn pro, would he still be your coach, or, would you seek someone at that level? Once you reach the level of your coach, or exceed him, generally you need to move on.




Maybe not Duc ….. If that were the case Mike Tyson, Tiger Woods etc etc would be the best Coaches of all time in their respective fields ……….. Great performers are often terrible Coaches.



kahuna1 said:


> I learnt not by sitting next to the worst trader, or copying the lowest least profitable one, I did the opposite, whist working inside my own strengths and abilities.




Steenbarger would very much agree with that philosophy I'm sure. 

He states that he does not Coach "privately".  His job was essentially to hire traders with appropriate "personalities" to trade for large hedge funds. Many would have no doubt been far better traders than he was but his skills were obviously considered valuable.   



kahuna1 said:


> We are NOT talking about coaches in sport, and I am sure Tiger Woods does not take tips on his golf swing from his hairdresser.




If Tiger's hairdresser was game enough to offer him a tip/tips, I bet Tiger would listen and digest the information before dismissing it though

I've found over the years that even the so called worst player/performer/musician/sportsperson can sometimes teach you something valuable … There are diamonds in the rough 
​


----------



## Gringotts Bank (24 April 2019)

barney said:


> ...even the so called worst player/performer/musician/sportsperson can sometimes teach you something valuable … There are diamonds in the rough



Yeh it pays not to block people on forums.  Plenty of people have a really good feel for SP movement, even if they have no market knowledge.


----------



## barney (24 April 2019)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yes because playing is one skillset and coaching is another.
> I do the trading and my own self-coaching.  They are completely separate activities.




Sorry missed this earlier post Gringo ….. you pretty much stated what I was trying to say in my last post 

ie. Good Coaches are good at coaching … and often get payed well for coaching well

Good sportsmen/traders/musicians/(insert whatever) may be brilliant in their chosen field but may not be able to teach/coach anyone jack sheet …. horses for courses.

As far as Brett S. goes … He seems to be well respected in the industry … Generally in life if you're dodgy for an extended period of time … life tends to catch you out … he's still around.


----------



## ducati916 (25 April 2019)

barney said:


> Sorry missed this earlier post Gringo ….. you pretty much stated what I was trying to say in my last post
> 
> 1. ie. Good Coaches are good at coaching … and often get payed well for coaching well
> 
> ...




1. Yes, we agree on this point generally speaking. Where we disagree is at what level of competence that coach must have himself, to coach. My assertion is that they need to be 'successful' in that undertaking, viz able to execute practically, to some better than average standard. That does not mean the 'best' in the world. What I am objecting to is the purely 'academic' coach, one who does not [cannot] execute in practical terms and never actually competes himself.

In terms of 'trading' this means that the coach can trade profitably. He doesn't need to be a Paul Tudor Jones or a Warren Buffett, just profitable.

2. Agreed. However, again, I am not requiring #1 in the world, just that they can actually 'do' to a certain level, what they purport to coach. You wouldn't [presumably] take a primary school coach of football and ask him to coach Barcelona.

3. Yes he is. But going to the primary examples that are available to us [public] on his blogs/books/etc, is that reputation really deserved? Certainly nothing evidenced on this thread has been overly impressive to date. That could change.

From what I remember, when he engaged on public forums [such as this] in the early noughties, prima facie, it appears impressive, but, practically, day-to-day, it had poor application. That could simply have been a personal failing, possibly my memory on this is poor, but re-reading some of his current stuff...

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (25 April 2019)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yeh it pays not to block people on forums.  Plenty of people have a really good feel for SP movement, even if they have no market knowledge.




Until you are accountable for the consequence, it means nothing.

In trading terms, whether you are profitable.

Alternatively, if you are still in the learning phase and you want to 'paper trade' your methodology, trading it in public [forum/friends/whatever] adds the pressure of being accountable. It is not as intense as actually trading money, but it adds some pressure. We all like looking good.

jog on
duc


----------



## kahuna1 (25 April 2019)

barney said:


> If Tiger's hairdresser was game enough to offer him a tip/tips, I bet Tiger would listen and digest the information before dismissing it though
> 
> I've found over the years that even the so called worst player/performer/musician/sportsperson can sometimes teach you something valuable … There are diamonds in the rough





In fact, the most successful people, *TUNE OUT NOISE* .... listen to few ... digest their thoughts and proceed.

That's how they improve. Seriously ... listening to an imbecile for 20 minutes !! Oh that's going to help me.  Must run and learn off the non piano playing person how to play !!  Maybe in Tigers case if the hairdresser is cute ... he listens but its about SEX ....



Gringotts Bank said:


> Yeh it pays not to block people on forums. Plenty of people have a really good feel for SP movement, even if they have no market knowledge.




Hilarious ... feel for stock price movement ?

If one doesn't tune out drivel ... imbeciles ... racists on this site ... people with no idea, they just waste your time, and reading say 10 posts of theirs, one can work out if they say anything interesting or not.

Is it someone cut an pasting idiotic views ?

I AM LESS INCLINED to listen to them.

Last night I turned on the TV and hey ... instant laxative an economist, the WORST in Australia was speaking and he seemed to have stolen my 1980's suits, had a tube of teeth whitener ... he is close to 70 and was sporting a bad hair dye job, whilst ... trying to look like he is 30. Anyhow, his track record and at one time he had some input into investment decisions at his company ... it IS with the worst track record of the BIG investment companies ...  he was sprouting his new theory.

Why the hell would one listen ? With a terrible track record ? Next they wheeled out the second worst fund managers economist and a sub market performance of similar scale to the first idiots company, about 4% UNDER the index over a long time .... and he drooled more stuff.

Are you hoping he is RIGHT this time ? After being wrong and so wrong over the past 30 years ?

Why would one listen to that record ? Why would Tiger cloud his mind listening to his hairdresser ? He would, but it would be likely about SEX, not golf tips ....

TIME is NOT an infinite resource. WASTING TIME ... with imbeciles theories ... MY OWN included are not going to help you. If someone has a great track record, listen, sift noise and discard rubbish. If someone is an imbecile, or someone you don't know, read their stuff and go, what crap, your suggesting listen ?
Far out ... how silly ...

As to listening to some guy ... who claims he caught a frog ... hmmm

On this basis, please put ME on ignore. Because, I think listening to some person on a  chat site talking about his feelings for a stock .... *you need your MIND READ*.

That is. if even this training person can find it !!

If someone is discussing what is going on at the company, or their view as to its business or future, fine. But too often we have ... oooh I love this stock its  a triple divergent on the oscillating base, and o just have this feeling. Are people that silly ?

I have this feeling, that you ... should go to the bank, get what little money  you have left and take it out in $100 - bills and walk into the middle of a crowd and throw it all in the air. You will do better than following what someone who has a feeling about a stock has.

Feelings ..... ooooh feelings ... I am singing here ... feelings ... I am now crying .... whilst singing .... feelings of the way you were. .... sob sob sob ...

As to this turnip, selling his course ....  like Trembling Hand ..... since he was an arrogant imbecile ... and NOT a good trader, three prop companies in short order  ... should speak volumes  .. , or this bookseller making you feel good, trading wise ... each to their own.

My pet rock makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Please please put me on ignore !! Identify yourself in the street if we ever meet so I can ... pretend not to speak English.

Oh I know ... go buy a course off this guy and he will help you better than listening to someone with feelings about a stock based upon solely the share price movement, which is akin to driving blind.

Did you know prior to Shearson Lehman going broke its chart looked golden about 10 times ... any look at its accounts, and you would have run 100 miles. I note EDE is being pushed again by someone with Divergent feelings on this site ... I had a divergence last night and it cleaned my insides out.

I wish you good luck after the quoted comments.


Have fun


----------



## barney (25 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> In terms of 'trading' this means that the coach can trade profitably. He doesn't need to be a Paul Tudor Jones or a Warren Buffett, just profitable.




Appreciate your points Duc.  

Without wanting to go round in circles; just an observation …. 

Is it possible that *if* BS. was just an average/ordinary/ok/ trader, perhaps his psych background in recognising and dealing with human traits/failings etc. may have been enhanced by his own "failings", which in turn could actually improve his ability to train??   

I agree that if he were a mediocre or poor trader however, his value as a Coach would be limited.  It seems unlikely that large hedge funds would pay him big bucks under those circumstances though?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 April 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> In fact, the most successful people, *TUNE OUT NOISE* .... listen to few ... digest their thoughts and proceed.
> 
> That's how they improve. Seriously ... listening to an imbecile for 20 minutes !! Oh that's going to help me.  Must run and learn off the non piano playing person how to play !!  Maybe in Tigers case if the hairdresser is cute ... he listens but its about SEX ....
> 
> ...




How I use feeling...

If you were on HC and I saw you posting on a stock, I'd be inclined to take the *opposite *trade.  That's because with an angry mood (which is easy to feel), the quality of your decision making is going to be poor.  I'm not trying to be a smart asre; I've learned this through my own experience of trading when in the wrong frame of mind.  There are some good research papers which back up this approach.

The only way to know whether Steenbarger is any good is to take 'before and after' snapshots of the accounts of those he coaches.  All this speculation about him is pointless.  He may be directly creating enormous gains for his clients, or he may be achieving nothing for them.  We don't know.

Back to feelings.  Have a read of this:  https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4fa0/9b158340bc22fd898802ccfc8c5ea9643c5a.pdf

My feeling-based approaches to social media are an edge.  It's possible to 'thin slice' sites like HC and get an accurate feel of public sentiment.  Usually the public are pretty right with their sentiment, but we want to enter/exit when they overreact.


----------



## barney (25 April 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> Maybe in Tigers case if the hairdresser is cute … *he listens but its about SEX* ….




Now I'm concerned … Tiger's hairdresser is a bloke

Kahuna …. Parts of your last post were amusing … but with all due respect, the supercilious tone and condescending comments were not a good look … in my opinion.

As for @Trembling Hand being an arrogant imbecile (pity he's not here to defend himself) …  that is a very poor assessment .... Did you ever get to witness any of his trading because it was eye opening I can assure you.

You are right though … We wasn't a 'good trader' ….. He was a goddamn freak


----------



## Ann (25 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> I thought it was about making money.
> 
> jog on
> duc



Anyone can make money, the trick to success is to be able to make money doing something you love and that you are passionate about. 

Stephen Kalayjian is a day trader who sells a trading system, check out his trading set-up. He puts greatness into five words. I can't get enough of positive motivation, apart from everything else it feels so good.


----------



## kahuna1 (25 April 2019)

Gringotts Bank said:


> If you were on HC and I saw you posting on a stock, I'd be inclined to take the *opposite *trade.




Well hold the press ...
I am calling Warren Buffett to tell him to use a chart, since he doesn't even use a computer and he should use Hot Copper ?

Maybe more relevant, the Platinum fund managers have it wrong. Better the Magellan fund managers and I call Hamish Douglass who ... manages 70 billion, has a very good track record and only made 15.7% per annum .... tell him to read Hot copper all day and stare till blind at a pretty pattern chart ? 

Better maybe ... his co-founder and the guy who ran the fund at MFG, now at MFF which he well has made 18% a year for the last decade, still owns about 15% of MFG and similar of the MFF fund he runs.





Gringotts Bank said:


> My feeling-based approaches to social media are an edge. It's possible to 'thin slice' sites like HC and get an accurate feel of public sentiment. Usually the public are pretty right with their sentiment, but we want to enter/exit when they overreact




Ok ... I found the site to be ... well full of stock promoters and its some time since I left. The hot stocks then were RSS range which is worthless .... LUM ... the one with an invention that saved power  ... 50% but was turned off half the day .... again bankrupt ... hmm ... VTI Virotech which had a cure for everything which has burnt more money than ... well ... anyone and is so diluted when I looked a few years ago about 1% of value.

Maybe Warren will not laugh at me ... or Hamish ?



barney said:


> As for @Trembling Hand being an arrogant imbecile (pity he's not here to defend himself) … that is a very poor assessment .... Did you ever get to witness any of his trading because it was eye opening I can assure you.




Well he ... and I had a differing view on this site. One of his co-workers Post messaged me here to apologize. I know who he was, where he worked and the prop shop and the owner who provided ... at that time the funds he traded with. So, well ... I did know who and what he was, not what he appeared maybe to you to be.

An aside.

Sorry if you find my posts blunt, but seriously !! IF you could make 16% on your money compounding ... a year as an investor in 20 years, well ... 100k is ? around the 20 fold mark.

I am not about to change. Or adopt a chart only, or listening to the taxi drivers tips, let alone Hot Copper of all sewers .... to drive decisions. It is, idiotic at best. If you don't like that opinion and one I may have expressed in total disbelief a bit strongly, so be it.

As an experiment, go back and look at the top gainers say over 10 years and see how many times they are mentioned on Hot copper . Its illuminating.

Take care


----------



## barney (25 April 2019)

kahuna1 said:


> Well he ... and I had a differing view on this site. One of his co-workers Post messaged me here to apologize. I know who he was, where he worked and the prop shop and the owner who provided ... at that time the funds he traded with. So, well ... I did know who and what he was, not what he appeared maybe to you to be.




I vaguely recall that time, but none of the details …… I recall he used to admit to having less than successful days at the "prop shop" but that is the nature of the beast I guess.  He could be abrasive/brash/in your face for sure but he knew how to trade. Its a pity you and he could not get along but I suspect neither of you would back down in a stoush

My view of TH revolves around the fact that when I was down and almost out a few years back, I approached him for some advice. He went out of his way to help and basically got me on my first steps to turning things around ….   I believe he helped quite a few others over the years.




kahuna1 said:


> Sorry if you find my posts blunt, but seriously !!




Blunt is perfectly fine …… No problems with blunt …. 

Using words flavored with sarcasm however may not be the best way to promote what could otherwise turn into some pretty informative conversations 



kahuna1 said:


> IF you could make 16% on your money compounding ... a year as an investor in 20 years, well ... 100k is ?




If you have achieved anything resembling that result, well done!  If you had 100K to invest 20 years ago … well done twice



kahuna1 said:


> If you don't like that opinion and one I may have expressed in total disbelief a bit strongly, so be it.




I have no problem with most of your opinions …. Said opinions do come across with a combative flavour at times however

For the record … and I've said it before …. I think a little friction and difference of opinion on a Forum is healthy ….. As long as a mutual respect is maintained.

I believe you can totally disagree with someone else's opinion, and still maintain a perfectly respectful conversation …… 

Rules of said conversations:-

1) Keep your sense of humour switched on
2) Leave any ego orientated comments at the door on the way in
3) No personal attacks
4) Go … HARD (Yes I am a Tom Gleeson fan)

​


----------



## kahuna1 (25 April 2019)

barney said:


> My view of TH revolves around the fact that when I was down and almost out a few years back, I approached him for some advice. He went out of his way to help and basically got me on my first steps to turning things around …. I believe he helped quite a few others over the years.




I am glad to hear he changed a bit. 

Yep the rest, well ... it is as always, a learning process life.
It is as always, humans amaze me. 

Informative ? I suppose, after a long time, it is what it is. If one is not open and blunt, at times with derision at some things, the point is actually LOST. I accept as I did and do, say in some of the HC companies I tool the time to explain say in 2003 that, in the case of LUM ... a worthless thing being stock promoted on HC, its accounts did not match its announcements. Its invention ..  supposedly worth billions to the posters on HC and this was after the tech crash, saved 50% of its power, by being turned off 12 out of 24 hours.

An old thing, no scabs or scars, but I did accept then, as I do now, someone reading this thread in the future and ones about similar things, they will weight what they will. For my efforts in trying to share grave concerns in 2003 on HC, they voted me the Biggest looser on the site. The stock did what it did.

TH, well ... he and I had a similar discussion and similar fashion about USA bonds and pre the 2013 dummy spit and Tightening tantrum ... similar results. His view was strong, dismissive and blunt. Oh and wrong. Not that that matters. It made me think. I even elaborated that EU bonds were under attack and idiotically priced at 2-3%  above USA ones when they collected 40% of GDP in tax and USA a mere 35% and now 30% with similar debt loads. For my reward, well ... you can guess what I was called. 

If, one thing I know, and at times, occasionally over the years, I have taken the time to hose down various things, it a NO WIN situation. But a few listen and think. Right or wrong, some will pause, if they read this thread and go, well ... maybe, maybe they have a point.

Other times I lead the fan club say for oil in 2003 or S+P rise and peak 2007 then rise post 2009 March. lots and lots of stocks even a live trading blog from 1997 to ... well 2009 ... that I bothers and post periodically on from time to time. Of course the first web site gone and second almost ...  but live ... real time and it was what it was. Learning for all concerned, and 100 heads were better than one. 

But wading into a topic which has, a devoted, and at times delusional fan base, is my form of community service rather than serving at vinnies. I took on the Uranium bulls with comprehensive supply side and economic side in 2006 and till 2008. Things change and a mine flooding ... Cigar Lake meant to open and supply an already short market ... and global supply for 8% and even I went long for about 12 months and the spot price went insane. But then, same thing. massive supply and I did not monitor HC or its rubbish, but did publish a few things and spoke in front of many many at a conference days after the peak and was the only bear. Presenting facts, even pictures on new mines in Kazakhstan, and drilling at BHP Olympic dam even with old WMC reports showing the deposit had 1.5 million tons of Uranium and about 20 years global supply, I got booed off stage.

My point being, I accept ... I know little or nothing. When a stock like PDN palladin has gone from 1 cent to $10- and now back to 15 cents ? I think speaks for itself. 

One does not get a reward, and quite the opposite and I do question, why I bother at times, and they are rare, but I get quite a lot out of it, even this thread and beliefs displayed that ... well ... are different.

No devoted fan of a stock, or a belief will ever change their mind on the spot. IF they, as they do at times present back counter information that is absurd, one has to call it that. Not in any hope I will ever change their devotion on the spot. Nor likely ever for some. 

It will however give some pause, they may come back next week, or month or even years down the track and see some logic, or not.

Backing away, is never a good option. Your point, in the face of being voted the biggest looser by someone you will never meet is, what it is. Or being told your angry for disagreeing and not seeing their religion, is, what it is.

Being lectured about if only I followed their beliefs as someone did and is standard fare when having an opposing view ... or being told you would only be more successful if you followed my ideas, or have more money, or they would trade against you ...  

Hilarious as I said to one here. He is confused, but such is life as to why I was amused at his comment. 


Have fun


----------



## barney (25 April 2019)

I am in the middle of something and have not had the time to digest your last post correctly @kahuna1, however …  firstly … 

1) You must be able to type really quickly lol 

2) You make some fantastic observations on the market past and present

3) You are obviously opinionated …… and have copped a bit of flack, past and perhaps present

My suggestion … ASF needs opinionated posters ….. 

I am more than slightly interested in your opinions … I know you and @tech/a had some 'confusion' earlier in the thread ….  

Could I suggest that you both revisit that 'confusion' as I think there might be some valuable interaction to come out of it  … 

As long as all parties adhere to my recently posted 'rules of conversation' …. or not … lol


----------



## tech/a (25 April 2019)

People who take delight in attempting to 
Cut down others with contempt while also
attempting to make it clear that they are 
so far above the topic and those taking part 
in it are so far up their own rectum it’s so
Dark they can’t see anything but their own
Ego.

Can’t be bothered who ever the guy with Big nuts is
But carry on I’ve cut out the noise —- much quieter.


----------



## kahuna1 (25 April 2019)

Well



barney said:


> I am more than slightly interested in your opinions … I know you and @tech/a had some 'confusion' earlier in the thread ….
> 
> Could I suggest that you both revisit that 'confusion' as I think there might be some valuable interaction to come out of it …




I think, we agree not to agree on anything, so that's fine and normal.
HE and I do use tech stuff, but not solely and he is a devoted sole tech guy, which i can accept and do understand. As I said a fan club or a religious cult at times. 

Book sellers and course sellers and experts, well, again, we differ as do many on this thread. I feel nothing to be gained by going over ground covered.

So many ways to profit in the market, however,, trying to say point out risk management of buying something that you have NO real idea of its value is taking on an exponential risk for what are minimal returns over and above the market.

That, alone, would inflame and enrage. But buying say LUM or PDN or even an oil stock when it hit $150 briefly as the USD crashed in 2008, was asking for pain. Not looking outside, as to what drives things, is only logical and safe.

We agree, as I suspect most on their way is the best. It may very well be for them. I do know, over time, the more you get involved, the potential for something to explode and take 100% of an investment becomes exponential.

Shorting shares, one person asked me ... you are often shorting unlimited insanity. Doing so with leverage is even worse. Sell say a share drilling but looking awful on a chart and it intersects 600 metres of oil or high grade minerals and the short at 50 cents is next price $5- .

Similar to shorting options. Most retire worthless, and someone who has granted options and got the premium for a few years, one day, it occurs. All of them get exercised and you loose, every cent you made in 3 years but multiplied by 10.

Not that I have done that, but, at times say 9/11 when a market closes, opens 5 days latter, it stings. Or a company lies and the announcement comes out and its 20% lower or god forbid, receivers ... but that too will occur if your around long enough. Brains DON'T matter nor does research or charts. It happens !!

I think leaving sleeping dogs lie, is the best option and I do take note of you kind comments.

Nothing to be gained kissing and making up. We are different and vastly different which is all good.

Humans are different and that is what makes the world tick.

Take care.

Whoops just saw his post above ... even funnier than the others


----------



## barney (25 April 2019)

tech/a said:


> But carry on I’ve cut out the noise —- much quieter.






kahuna1 said:


> Well   I think, we agree not to agree on anything, so that's fine and normal.




OK …. I'll stand aside then …… 

You are obviously both strong characters which I respect ….

I do believe that in cyber-space and on Forums, it is easy to take umbrage with someone, who in real life (at the local bowling club after a particularly tough game on the green for example) … we might actually strike up an interesting conversation with …. dare I say, may even become friends …. Sorry if that offends any or all

You guys get the point … you are both smart people …. my suggestion …. PM each other and have a fair dinkum 'ok-corral' shoot out to see if there might be some common ground worth discussing without any forum 'interference'  …… too much knowledge between the both of you to not try


----------



## ducati916 (26 April 2019)

barney said:


> Appreciate your points Duc.
> 
> Without wanting to go round in circles; just an observation ….
> 
> ...




1. Is it possible? Yes, almost anything is possible.

However this is the issue:

The aim of trading is to become profitable. To do so you need: (i) a methodology that has a positive expectancy and (ii) the ability to execute that methodology.

As regards (i): since there are no 100% win methodologies out there [not that I know anyway] then it by definition can be stated that at some point the methodology will incur a loss. Some, based on their style/design are far more aggressive, requiring greater execution, than others.

Re. (ii): the more aggressive the methodology, say day-trading futures, the greater the requirement for execution. Day-trading futures could be as simple as a coin toss to go long/short and then ruthlessly manage the trade. All the emphasis is on execution, the methodology I can teach you in about 30 seconds.

If however the methodology is more complex, a mechanical system such as Skate has provided on this forum. Then the situation is different. The donee of the system needs to really understand the system and have confidence in the system, otherwise, execution will be poor and will likely deteriorate in any period of drawdown.

I have already highlighted the issue re. the turtle experiment.

So Steenbarger is operating in two quite distinct fields: he is in both (i) and (ii). He must therefore assess whether the failure of 'X' is due to (i), (ii) or both in some proportion to one another.

From what I remember and have seen recently, Steenbarger's trading style was day-trading. It could be argued that (i) carries little to zero importance and success lies 100% in (ii). In which case 'psychology' has a large impact.

Taking the coin toss of (i), could/can Steenbarger [himself] make that profitable over a period of time other than a few minutes? Let us say a year. If he can, then he is qualified to coach. The reason I say that is because in theory...in should work. In reality, the mental exhaustion of trading this way would be significant and someone stating theoretically what is required, is simply unrealistic.

The above example is for someone who is more at the novice level.

Steenbarger does not operate at that level. He operates at Hedge Fund/Quant Shop/etc. These guys can already trade and have a positive expectancy model. They may be in a drawdown/slump and need some motivation.

Motivation is a different beast from becoming profitable in the first instance. Steenbarger is not teaching them how to become profitable via (i) and (ii), he is [or should be] re-motivating them to trade [execute] well [better] on an already proven model, viz predominantly (ii).

I therefore question how applicable Steenbarger is to the novice/experimental trader.

Here however is the dichotomy. In the previous examples in this thread, Steenbarger emphasises or deals largely with (i). This infers that he is coaching not execution (ii), but methodology (i). To coach methodology, you need to have positive expectancy models. To trade (i) successfully, you need (ii).

The question therefore is: does/did Steenbarger trade profitably? If yes, then he has at least 1 version of (i) and (ii).

If he doesn't have 1 version of (i), then all the brilliance in (ii) will not help with (i). He will net, net, lose money. To be profitable, both (i) and (ii) must be present. If only one of them is present, you will lose money over time.

2. Which brings us to your position in [2] which is: we are mostly on the same page. Your friend TH was already a good trader. He found benefit in Steenbarger to re-motivate, remind himself of basics, possibly learn some new techniques.

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (26 April 2019)

Ann said:


> 1. Anyone can make money,
> 
> 1A. the trick to success is to be able to make money doing something you love and that you are passionate about.
> 
> 2. Stephen Kalayjian is a day trader who sells a trading system, check out his trading set-up. He puts greatness into five words. I can't get enough of positive motivation, apart from everything else it feels so good.





1. Yes, anyone can make money. I can work in McDonald's and make money.

1A. Which is what this thread is about. As I stated, trading is about making money. There is no requirement to be 'passionate' about it at all. Clinically bored is just as effective.

The question then is: can anyone make money trading? The answer should be yes, but reality suggests that the actual answer is no.

It is no because: they do not have (i) a positive expectancy model and (ii) the ability to execute consistently.

'Anyone' in possession of (i) and (ii) can make money trading. They may be passionate, like yourself, or vaguely awake, like myself.

jog on
duc


----------



## Ann (26 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> 1. Yes, anyone can make money. I can work in McDonald's and make money.



They sure can and they can make a fortune from doing so. Just like Warren Buffett and his menial job...
_At 13, Buffett took what could have been a mind-numbing job as a paper boy and turned it into a competition with himself. Buffett woke up at 4:30 in the morning to deliver copies of The Washington Post, and he challenged himself to find ways to serve each of his five buildings faster._

Can you feel the passion here folks? 



ducati916 said:


> 1A. Which is what this thread is about. As I stated, trading is about making money. There is no requirement to be 'passionate' about it at all. Clinically bored is just as effective.




This thread is not about making money per se  but about doing something you love and doing it better. To live clinically bored is to be imprisoned into a part life. It will flow into all areas of a person's life and relationships. It is a pity when someone makes money in a way that is boring or worse, stressful, especially if they are making substantial money, money can be a doorway to freedom or it can be a doorway into life imprisonment. 



ducati916 said:


> The question then is: can anyone make money trading? The answer should be yes, but reality suggests that the actual answer is no.



That is true of any profession. Not everyone can succeed in a chosen career, that is why so many people move into different areas of work throughout their working lives. In earlier times a job was for life, whether you liked it or not. These days people look to the quality of their lives and move away from stultifying or dead-end jobs.



ducati916 said:


> It is no because: they do not have (i) a positive expectancy model and (ii) the ability to execute consistently.




.....or the desire to keep doing something which is not enjoyable for them. I can see how someone would see what we do as mind-numbingly boring, most people have a higher expectation for their lives. 



ducati916 said:


> 'Anyone' in possession of (i) and (ii) can make money trading. They may be passionate, like yourself, or vaguely awake, like myself.




You are right duc, and I guess it is up to each one of us as to how we choose to live our lives.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (26 April 2019)

I think Steenbarger would be flattered with all the attention.


----------



## barney (26 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> He found benefit in Steenbarger to re-motivate, remind himself of basics, possibly learn some new techniques.




Excellent post Duc …. Appreciate the time you took to construct that … and at 3am in the morning …. You aren't a Duc; you are an owl



Gringotts Bank said:


> I think Steenbarger would be flattered with all the attention.




Indeed


----------



## ducati916 (27 April 2019)

Ann said:


> 1. They sure can and they can make a fortune from doing so. Just like Warren Buffett and his menial job...
> _At 13, Buffett took what could have been a mind-numbing job as a paper boy and turned it into a competition with himself. Buffett woke up at 4:30 in the morning to deliver copies of The Washington Post, and he challenged himself to find ways to serve each of his five buildings faster._
> 
> 1A. Can you feel the passion here folks?
> ...




1. It is highly unlikely that a menial job, or minimum wage job will ever lead to a fortune directly. It could be a means to an end indirectly.

1A. That is not passion. That is simply a motivational trick. If something is unpleasant, but must be done, you look for ways to make it more palatable. Little competitions with oneself is a common one.

2. Well given that it is a thread re. Steenbarger, and he is predominantly financial markets related, I'd say it's very much about making money. While I accept that there are probably a few hobbyists out there, drawing lines on charts or reading financial statements purely for the 'fun of it', never actually trading any money, most will undertake that for the purpose of making money.

3. Which is why 'passion' is a nonsense premise. Many [most] work in jobs/careers because they have bills to meet. They may 'like' their job, they may hate their job, but most are not passionate about their job. Only the lucky few ever find the job that they would do for free. This is in large measure because they do not have the requisite skill/talent to do what they wish they could do.

4. You have managed to gloss an interpretation which entirely misrepresents my original statement. My meaning is that to be successful in trading/investing, the winning/losing of money does not elicit an emotional response. You are neutral. Bored. In this non-emotional state, you can execute how you should execute [to your pre-existing plan]. To reach that [happy] state you must truly understand your trading methodology and its boundaries. You are calm because whatever is happening, is still within the boundaries of the methodology.

jog on
duc


----------



## ducati916 (27 April 2019)

barney said:


> Excellent post Duc …. Appreciate the time you took to construct that … and at 3am in the morning …. You aren't a Duc; you are an owl
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed




A residual habit from when I did day-trade the US markets.

jog on
duc


----------



## tech/a (27 April 2019)

Duc is a New Zealander
They are 3 hrs in front 
Of us.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 April 2019)

tech/a said:


> Duc is a New Zealander
> They are 3 hrs in front
> Of us.



And politically ahead of us also often.


----------



## barney (27 April 2019)

tech/a said:


> Duc is a New Zealander
> They are 3 hrs in front
> Of us.




Ah … Thank you Tech …. so that means when I read his posts at 3am …. I am actually the crazy one keeping ridiculous hours


----------



## barney (27 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> A residual habit from when I did day-trade the US markets.
> 
> jog on
> duc




I thought you may have also been mad muso …. old habits die hard


----------



## ducati916 (28 April 2019)

barney said:


> I thought you may have also been mad muso …. old habits die hard




I'm generally up fairly early [NZ time] which will obviously be, as tech/a says, a few hours earlier your time.

jog on
duc


----------



## barney (28 April 2019)

ducati916 said:


> I'm generally up fairly early [NZ time] which will obviously be, as tech/a says, a few hours earlier your time.
> 
> jog on
> duc




Ok Gotcha …. That means you are normal and I am still the odd one … although I have seen @peter2 and a couple of others burning the "midnight oil" at times as well


----------



## Ann (28 April 2019)

*Follow Your Joy...And Your Pain *
_
The SMB Blog recently posted its 10 top trading tweets of the week.  There are excellent insights here, including reflections on "What I Wish I Knew Before I Started Trading".  One of the tweets pointed to the importance of feeling pain when we're trading poorly._


----------



## Ann (30 April 2019)

*Trading Psychology: How to Improve Your Trading Results *

_Many traders focus on their results--their P/L--and never make the process changes that could lead to sustained results.  A great deal of writings in the area of trading psychology emphasize the changes that traders should make--not actual techniques traders could employ to make those changes.  When I wrote The Daily Trading Coach, the idea was to create a "cookbook" that would help traders coach themselves, using established, proven techniques from applied psychology._

_It's time, however, to update those "how-to's".  In the most recent Forbes article, I explain how evidence-based approaches to short-term therapy can be adapted to help us achieve peak performance in our trading--and in our personal lives.  This is a major development in psychology.  Until recently, change techniques have been used to help troubled people reduce their problems.  They have equal value, however, in achieving positives as "therapies for the mentally well." More.._


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## Gringotts Bank (30 April 2019)

Ann said:


> *... the importance of feeling pain when we're trading poorly.*




I'd say that's my number one tip in terms of trading psychology.  Knowing how to feel pain fully (the pain of loss or missed opportunity) and release it.  Indispensible.


----------



## barney (30 April 2019)

Gringotts Bank said:


> to feel pain fully (the pain of loss or missed opportunity) and release it.  Indispensable.




To be able to 'release it fully' means that the punter involved must have "evolved" from his/her previous past "indiscretions" …..  And has likely/hopefully become aware of *WHY* that happened. .. (first step)

To accept … then "release" ….. is the precursor to profit …. *IF *the punter has formulated a trading plan of attack which actually works 

In essence … I agree …..

Of course, if said Punter has further issues which may be sabotaging their "revelation" …..

More work will be required


----------



## Gringotts Bank (2 May 2019)

barney said:


> To be able to 'release it fully' means that the punter involved must have "evolved" from his/her previous past "indiscretions" …..  And has likely/hopefully become aware of *WHY* that happened. .. (first step)
> 
> To accept … then "release" ….. is the precursor to profit …. *IF *the punter has formulated a trading plan of attack which actually works
> 
> ...




I see it a bit differently.

If there's even a slight element of discretion (which is the case for most traders), decision making will play a part in choosing exactly when and which signals to take.  It's my experience that one's mindset will find a match in the real world, because it craves consistency.  In other words, one will be strongly attracted to those stocks which confirm one's beliefs and feelings relating to trading/money/worthiness etc.  *TLDR*; if you feel ****, you trade ****.

Releasing negative emotions is done by observing them from a 'higher' perspective.  So, change the way you feel (by whatever means necessary), and from there, observe the mistakes and the feelings they create.  The idea is to ovewrite the 0s with 1s, not have a mind divided.


----------



## ducati916 (3 May 2019)

Ann said:


> *Follow Your Joy...And Your Pain *
> _
> The SMB Blog recently posted its 10 top trading tweets of the week.  There are excellent insights here, including reflections on "What I Wish I Knew Before I Started Trading".  One of the tweets pointed to the importance of feeling pain when we're trading poorly._




A quote from the above link:

_When we feel joy and gratitude, we focus on what we've done well; when we feel pain, we focus on how we've fallen short of our ideals.  Both states of mind cement our perceptions and help them stand out from routine.  We change via powerful emotional experiences, not simply by writing things in journal and talking them aloud.  _

What he [Steenbarger] is actually talking about is 'attribution'.

The problem of course is we as humans are very poor at correctly attributing events and our part in them. A few picks of stocks that go straight up and we are the next Buffett, rather than it was a bull market and we were lucky. Stocks go straight down, we were very unlucky, if only that director hadn't committed fraud.....blah, blah, blah.

If, and it is a big if, you can learn from pain, or pleasure, to attribute correctly, then you are definitely moving forward.

There is no mention by Steenbarger in this post of that quality. If you want to read and implement psychology, Kahneman is streets ahead of Steenbarger.

jog on
duc


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## Ann (3 May 2019)

ducati916 said:


> What he [Steenbarger] is actually talking about is 'attribution'.




Here you go folks this is the definition for Attribution in relation to Kahneman...

_*Attribute substitution*, also known as *Substitution bias*, is a psychological process thought to underlie a number of cognitive biases and perceptual illusions. It occurs when an individual has to make a judgment (of a target attribute) that is computationally complex, and instead substitutes a more easily calculated heuristic attribute.[1] This substitution is thought of as taking place in the automatic intuitive judgment system, rather than the more self-aware reflective system. Hence, when someone tries to answer a difficult question, they may actually answer a related but different question, without realizing that a substitution has taken place.[2] This explains why individuals can be unaware of their own biases, and why biases persist even when the subject is made aware of them. It also explains why human judgments often fail to show regression toward the mean.[3]

The theory of attribute substitution unifies a number of separate explanations of reasoning errors in terms of cognitive heuristics.[1] In turn, the theory is subsumed by an effort-reduction framework proposed by Anuj K. Shah and Daniel M. Oppenheimer, which states that people use a variety of techniques to reduce the effort of making decisions.[4]_

Hope that has clarified it all for you folks! 

Pain and pleasure works for me! 



ducati916 said:


> There is no mention by Steenbarger in this post of that quality. If you want to read and implement psychology, Kahneman is streets ahead of Steenbarger.




Why not start and maintain a thread for Kahneman duc if boredom doesn't paralyze you!  
We can't have too much of positive, professional advice from those who have a focus in this area.
There will be wee nuggets of gold for everyone if we look hard enough.


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## Ann (3 May 2019)

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2019/05/trading-psychology-techniques-1-keeping.html
*Trading Psychology Techniques - 1: Keeping a Trading Journal *

_ The focus of this post is on the proper construction and use of trading journals.  Several evidence-based approaches to psychological change make substantial use of journaling, including cognitive therapy.  Like many cognitive-behavioral methods, journaling can improve our self-awareness, making us more mindful both of what we are doing well and what needs improvement. _


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## Newt (3 May 2019)

B Hell - why doesn't someone just send him an email?  
*Steenbarger)


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## Ann (7 May 2019)

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2019/05/trading-psychology-techniques-2-testing.html
* Trading Psychology Techniques 2: Testing Your Trading Ideas*
_
......The sad truth is that a substantial portion of trading (and trading psychology) problems stems from trading sheer randomness.  Traders convince themselves they see a pattern in price action, earnings, macroeconomic data releases, indicators, etc. and they act upon that pattern without testing its validity in any fashion whatsoever....._


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## Ann (10 May 2019)

*Trading Psychology Techniques - 3: Managing Your Energy *

_".....Energy is one of four key components of positive emotional experience.  The other three are happiness (doing what we enjoy); fulfillment (doing what we find meaningful); and relationships (doing things that bond us to those we care about).  It is difficult to imagine experiencing well-being without a good measure of energy and enthusiasm.  Indeed, research suggests that we are most likely to succeed at work and experience good health if we enjoy a high degree of well-being." More...._


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## Gringotts Bank (10 May 2019)

Ann said:


> *Trading Psychology Techniques - 3: Managing Your Energy *
> 
> _".....Energy is one of four key components of positive emotional experience.  The other three are happiness (doing what we enjoy); fulfillment (doing what we find meaningful); and relationships (doing things that bond us to those we care about).  It is difficult to imagine experiencing well-being without a good measure of energy and enthusiasm.  Indeed, research suggests that we are most likely to succeed at work and experience good health if we enjoy a high degree of well-being." More...._




Definitely. And your energy will determine exactly which information and resources you will be able to access.

If you want to trade well or code some amazing new system, you must first lift your energy.  Get into more pleasant surroundings, exercise, get a coffee....whatever it takes _*before *_you start.


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## Ann (15 May 2019)

*Trading Psychology Techniques - 4: Developing Your Morning Routine *
_
I have consistently found, personally as well as in my work with others, that how we live our mornings sets the tone for the entire day.  I've equally observed that how we start our mornings sets the tone for the entire morning.  In life, as on the racetrack, getting off to a good start does not guarantee a win, but getting off to a bad start puts the winning odds against you.

_
This is what Steenbarger was listening to as he wrote this post.


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## Gringotts Bank (15 May 2019)

Every day I'm stunned by how emotion dictates success and failure way above and beyond process.

The very simplest of coding problems is impossible to solve when in a grumpy mood.  Mood dictates ability, in coding, in sport, in every single thing.  That's because mood is generated by subconscious beliefs.  If the belief is negative, so outer aspects of life must follow.  That's not to say that positive thinking will fix this issue.  Positive thinking is not just a waste of time, but harmful.


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## Ann (21 May 2019)

*Trading Psychology Techniques - 5: Relationships *

_An important theme of my recent Forbes article is that what we do in life becomes internalized.  Our actions shape our identities.  Can we live undisciplined lives and become disciplined traders?  Can we look at the same information as everyone else and generate unique ideas and returns?  Can we remain self-focused and self-absorbed and sustain close relationships with others?  What we do becomes who we are. More..._


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## Ann (25 May 2019)

*Trading Psychology Techniques - 6: Building Self-Awareness*
_
....Self-awareness is the capacity to think about our thinking and reflect on our actions before we react to situations.  The self-aware trader stands back from his or her reactions, notices his or her thoughts and feelings, observes the tendency to act upon these, and then steps back to decide the best course of action. More.._


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## Ann (4 June 2019)

*Trading Psychology Techniques - 7: Facing Your Fears *

A while back, I worked with a trader and reviewed his P/L statistics.  Keeping good statistics on your trading is a universal best practice.  The patterns of wins and losses--and the progress over time--reveals a great deal about your trading--and your trading psychology. More...


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## Gringotts Bank (4 June 2019)

Ann said:


> *Trading Psychology Techniques - 7: Facing Your Fears *
> 
> A while back, I worked with a trader and reviewed his P/L statistics.  Keeping good statistics on your trading is a universal best practice.  The patterns of wins and losses--and the progress over time--reveals a great deal about your trading--and your trading psychology. More...




There's a real art and skill in processing fears properly.  Courage is only a small element - not as important as peole might imagine.  In fact, if a huge degree of courage is required, then you're doing it incorrectly*.  The key is in the infusing of present moment awareness.  Let the fear and the present moment interact.  A natural opening up between left and right brain ensues without any effort.

*Or you may have a major, unprocessed trauma, but that's less likely a factor with trading-related fears.


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## Ann (10 June 2019)

Gringotts Bank said:


> There's a real art and skill in processing fears properly.  Courage is only a small element - not as important as peole might imagine.  In fact, if a huge degree of courage is required, then you're doing it incorrectly*.  The key is in the infusing of present moment awareness.  Let the fear and the present moment interact.  A natural opening up between left and right brain ensues without any effort.
> 
> *Or you may have a major, unprocessed trauma, but that's less likely a factor with trading-related fears.



I can never quite understand people being fearful of purchasing something on the markets. Perhaps they need more time going to the supermarket. Sometimes you buy something on special and win, sometimes you buy something and it goes on special next week, you lose.

I bought two cars at Christmas time while the deals were good/excellent, one new, one twelve months old. I know for a fact the moment we drove out of the lot I lost a ship load of money and will never see it again and it will continue to fall over time. Was/am I feeling fear? No! 

I just don't understand market fear. I can appreciate fear for a novice while they are feeling their way but that should only take a few trades. Anyway, I like this next post, I love to review my own trades, I learn so much from them and the exercise.


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## Ann (10 June 2019)

*Three Key Mistakes Traders Make In Evaluating Their Trading *

_Ongoing evaluation of our trading enables us to learn from experience and guide ourselves toward improvements.  We cannot change what we do not observe and measure.  Successful traders study themselves--and their performance--every bit as diligently as they study markets. More.._


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## Ann (14 June 2019)

*Trading Psychology Techniques - 8: Overcoming Frustration *

_The last post in this series focused on ways of overcoming our trading fears.  Many times, it is frustration that can take a trader out of the zone and disrupt trading plans, including risk management.  When trades don't work out--or when we miss good opportunities--there is plenty of room for anger and frustration.  Frustration occurs when we have a strong set of desires or needs and those are thwarted.  Getting stuck in a traffic jam when we have to make an appointment is a great example.  

There are two types of methods that can help us overcome frustration: More..._


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## Ann (19 June 2019)

*Trading Psychology Techniques - 9: Conquering Negativity*
_

The first principle and most important practice is to live a positive life outside of your trading.  It is impossible to sustain an optimistic and constructive mindset during trading if what you are reinforcing during your other hours is negative.  More..._


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