# Trading review processes



## nomore4s (31 December 2009)

It is common to see books and threads talking about testing trading set ups and systems etc but I never really see many people talking about reviewing your trades & trading so I thought I would start a thread on that topic.

To me trading is a business and should be run like a business. A good business operator understands their business inside and out and trading should be no different. This means understanding why it is making money (profitable periods) or why it is losing money (draw-down periods) and then acting on that information to help reduce draw-down or enhance profitable periods. Think of any successful company and they will all run extensive review processes to try to find ways to improve their businesses, so why should our trading be any different?

Finding ways to improve all aspects of your trading is made easier by understanding exactly what you are doing right and what areas you struggle in, this is where a solid review process comes in.

I'm not talking about just reviewing your trading stats, I mean reviewing every process of your trading.

Individual trades
-Entries
-Exits
Profitable Periods
Draw-down Periods
Thought processes when entering & exiting trades - reviewing trading diaries if kept.
Trading Stats for each month, quarter, 1/2 year and full year.

For most individual trades I mark up a chart with the entry & exit listed and then review the trade along these lines
*Entries*

How good was the entry?
Did I follow the rules of my set up?
If not, why?
Is there a way to improve this entry set up?
If yes, how?
What were the market conditions like at the time of this entry?

*Exits*

How good was the exit?
Did I follow my exit plan with this trade?
If not, why?
Is there a way to improve my exits for this set up?
If yes, how?
Did I follow my plan on this trade?
What effect did market conditions have on this trade?
Is this set up & type of trade suited to this type of market?
What was the share price 2 weeks (or a certain number of bars) after the trade?
Did I miss a chunk of the move I was trading due to a poor exit(in hindsight)?
Is there a way to capture more of this move I traded?
General comments on this trade
If I notice any patterns emerging I try to address these issues and implement the improvements into my trading. I find this handy as I can keep my finger on the pulse as to why patterns or set ups are starting to fail and can help me to keep my strings of losers to a minimum.

*Profitable & Drawdown Periods*
(but this also applies to my trading Stats for each month, quarter, 1/2 year and full year), I tend to only review these periods when I either notice I'm in draw-down or after an extremely profitable period but I do a general review when I review my stats at the end of each period.

Why was this period so profitable/unprofitable?
What phase was the market in during this period? And how did this affect my trading during this period?
Is the strategy I was using for this period suited to the market conditions?
If not why wasn't this identified earlier and rectified?
How could I have enhanced my profit in this period? Can I apply that to my trading going forward?
How could I have reduced draw-down in this period? Can I apply that to my trading going forward to reduce future draw-down periods?

Obviously this can be a very time consuming process and a little bit painful at times but I have found the improvements it has made to my trading has been well worth the effort.

I realise some traders will think this is a waste of time and that's fine (I do what works for me) but if you do have a review process feel free to add your thoughts, as I would be interested in other ideas that way I might be able to improve my review processes


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## Wysiwyg (31 December 2009)

As you have noted on several occasions, there are times to be in the market and times to be out. This is a most valuable piece of knowledge to develop a trading system with. 

If a trading system is correctly developed, that is proven robust before committing the real stuff, then a review of profits would be nice.  Also remembering a good or bad entry is only so after the event and not indicative of future events.  My


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## nomore4s (31 December 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> If a trading system is correctly developed, that is proven robust before committing the real stuff, then a review of profits would be nice.  Also remembering a good or bad entry is only so after the event and not indicative of future events.  My




Just a couple of comments on this.

I've seen systems that are correctly developed, proven robust in testing but fallen over when traded live. Knowing why the system failed can only be achieved after reviewing its trades. Reviewing your trades will also let you optimize your system to the current market conditions.

Reviewing good or bad entries in hindsight may not be indicative of future events but it may uncover a pattern of events that you can apply to your trading going forward.
I was surprised at just how many mistakes & bad trades I was able to eliminate from my trading after I started reviewing my trades in depth.
If you keep doing the same things you can't expect different results or to improve. I want to improve my trading so I need to understand what the weaknesses and strengths of my trading are.


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## Frank D (31 December 2009)

*Market conditions, market conditions and market conditions.*

It’s got nothing to do with your system, as your system is already proven 
to work.

And I’ve said this many times in the past, it’s your own ability to effectively ‘chart read' those 
market conditions that will end up improving your already ‘proven system’.

And I’ve said this many times in the past. The majority can’t effectively ‘chart read’, besides 
the basics:- identifying trends and trading with trends, which for most is the most important
 thing, but it can limit opportunities as market conditions change from trending into
 consolidating.

Then it’s a case of optimizing your system to the market conditions, either
 by trading larger amounts at certain times, trading lesser amounts at 
certain times, tightening stops or widening stops, ‘hedging’, not trading
 a signal given, trading with the trend or against the trend.

If you aren’t intra-day scalping small price increments you will probably have
 1 maybe 2 times per month that will provide any real opportunities to
 make some decent profits, either by swing trading or capturing 
the next ‘trend’. The rest of the time you’re trying to minimize your losses
 & risk.

What about money management?

You read it all the time…. _"The most important thing in trading is 
‘money management’"... _but rarely do you read how to optimize 
money management.

*Is a price based stop a better option compared to a ‘time’ based stop?*

A generic dollar stop might be a safe option, but it doesn’t mean it’s a
 better option in certain market conditions.

However, a lot of this does depend on amount traded, account size, 
and justifying the risk at the time.


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## nomore4s (31 December 2009)

Hi Frank,

I agree with everything you have said.

I just find it interesting that most people spend so much time backtesting but so little time reviewing the actual application of that testing, the thing that actually creates the profits.

By reviewing my trading in detail I've learnt more about my trading and systems then any other process.

It has helped me identify and remain in tune with the market conditions which has helped me improve my profitability and reduce my periods of draw-down. It has also helped my optimize all aspects of my trading as it provides me with feed back to where I can improve or make changes.


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## ThingyMajiggy (31 December 2009)

If there are people out there doing backtesting, backtesting and more  backtesting, have developed a system that "works", yet they can't tell if the market is going up, down, or flat, theres something wrong isn't there??


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## nomore4s (31 December 2009)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> If there are people out there doing backtesting, backtesting and more  backtesting, have developed a system that "works", yet they can't tell if the market is going up, down, or flat, theres something wrong isn't there??




Probably more to do with identifying changes in the market earlier.


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## ThingyMajiggy (31 December 2009)

nomore4s said:


> Probably more to do with identifying changes in the market earlier.




Please explain? (we need a pauline hanson smilie)


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## nomore4s (31 December 2009)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Please explain? (we need a pauline hanson smilie)




A bit along the same lines as what Frank was talking about, learning to read charts.

You develop a system that works but it works better in certain conditions or not at all in other conditions the sooner you can identify changes to market conditions the sooner you can make changes to the way you trade your system as Frank pointed out.

This should reduce draw-down and help profitability while essentially reducing your risks. Knowing when to be aggressive  and when to be conservative is important imo.


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## ThingyMajiggy (31 December 2009)

nomore4s said:


> A bit along the same lines as what Frank was talking about, learning to read charts.
> 
> You develop a system that works but it works better in certain conditions or not at all in other conditions the sooner you can identify changes to market conditions the sooner you can make changes to the way you trade your system as Frank pointed out.
> 
> This should reduce draw-down and help profitability while essentially reducing your risks. Knowing when to be aggressive  and when to be conservative is important imo.




But wouldn't that all be factored into the backtesting? So you backtest it over the last X years etc, but you know the market was a raging bull market or whatever the case may be, so therefore you need to change something when the market isn't behaving like the backtesting period? 

Anyway, fully understand your points, just would've thought that people would know that if they get good results for a certain backtesting period, then obviously things are going to need changing because the market isn't going to behave like that all the time. 

Do you keep a diary/journal? I keep one, I think it helps, I usually record my thoughts and current important points in the market, targets etc and my trades, I get slack on it sometimes though! 

Good for looking back over though, quite a few "why the hell did I do that again and again" moments


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## nomore4s (31 December 2009)

When trading the SPI I review each days trading by marking up a chart with my trades and then reviewing areas where I thought I could have done better and any mistakes I made and the things I did well.

I also compare to how the day played out to how I actually thought it would play out - re: DOW, Oil, copper, gold , AUD etc, and other stats I keep.


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## MRC & Co (31 December 2009)

Sam, the hard part is, when do you know the market is no longer a 'raging bull'?   Months later and after 20% DD? 

This is the advantage of 'chart reading' as Frank pointed out.  You can sometimes know the very minute you go into a sideways pattern and start fading ranges, minimising stops/profit targets or staying out all-together.

Sorry to point out this specific poster, but Nizar was the epitome of a failed 'backtested' idea.  He had no clue how markets really operated or any kind of discretionary overlay.  Which resulted in him being severely whacked!

As far as a review process, unfortunately, I don't have much to offer there.  I don't really have any specific 'set-ups' as such, it is far too discretionary.  I tried to review my trades for a long time, but soon realised it was pointless for my style.  Too many factors go into making a decision, and things change so quick I am constantly updating my style to the market conditions.


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## ThingyMajiggy (31 December 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Sam, the hard part is, when do you know the market is no longer a 'raging bull'?   Months later and after 20% DD?
> 
> This is the advantage of 'chart reading' as Frank pointed out.  You can sometimes know the very minute you go into a sideways pattern and start fading ranges, minimising stops/profit targets or staying out all-together.
> 
> ...




Well yeah, that depends on your method and skill in chart reading as you say. I just find it fascinating that people have the skills to do periods of backtesting, actually come up with a system, yet cannot recognize accumulation, distribution etc. the way markets operate.


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## Synergy (31 December 2009)

I think it's important to compare apples with apples here.

For system traders discretion is often their worst enemy. The important thing is to follow the system. Trying to second guess the market is unlikely to be part of the system, and trying to do so will probably result in lost profit. November has been my most profitable month this year, and leading into it my gut feeling was that it was likely to be a losing month.

I'm interested in where the market is heading and i do spend time looking at index charts, but until my system switches itself off I keep taking trades.


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## MRC & Co (31 December 2009)

Synergy said:


> I think it's important to compare apples with apples here.
> 
> For system traders discretion is often their worst enemy. The important thing is to follow the system. Trying to second guess the market is unlikely to be part of the system, and trying to do so will probably result in lost profit. November has been my most profitable month this year, and leading into it my gut feeling was that it was likely to be a losing month.
> 
> I'm interested in where the market is heading and i do spend time looking at index charts, but until my system switches itself off I keep taking trades.




And this is why I guess I am yet to see a pure systems trader, with a fixed % DD before they know their system is not working, that makes NEAR the profit of a good 'discretionary trader' even if that discretion also includes a system of it's own but a lot of reading of market conditions and nuances.  

This is my 3rd year coming up full-time and many years before that analysing the market, and as far as reading discretion, I am still a long way off being where I want to be.  That being said, I have seen period where Soros chases his tail, and actually employed Neiderhoffer to work the market out statistically for him in that period, which doesn't make me feel so bad!  

Good thread though, a lot of people apply the wrong methods to the wrong market environments.  For those who use Radge, they will see what I mean, constantly updating his idea of market flows and strategy.


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## Trader Paul (31 December 2009)

Frank D said:


> *Market conditions, market conditions and market conditions.*
> 
> It’s got nothing to do with your system, as your system is already proven
> to work.
> ...








Good post, Frank ... like your style ... 

*Is a price based stop a better option compared to a ‘time’ based stop?*

As price and time stops are each aligned to a different chart axis, we can
use them both in a complementary way, to establish better exits and to
reinforce our trading methods.

To read more, about simple price and time stops (and a whole lot more), just go to:

http://www.authorsden.com/SampleWorksPDF/10134.pdf

Happy New Year all ..... !~!

  paul



=====


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## Trembling Hand (8 January 2010)

MRC & Co said:


> As far as a review process, unfortunately, I don't have much to offer there.  I don't really have any specific 'set-ups' as such, it is far too discretionary.  I tried to review my trades for a long time, but soon realised it was pointless for my style.  Too many factors go into making a decision, and things change so quick I am constantly updating my style to the market conditions.




In some ways I'm with you. To have a look at a heap of entries and exits can have you chasing your tail. But I do review the results of my trades, equity curve, in real time and its probably the biggest help I have stumbled on.

It gives me two pieces of info if its going down, either the market is doing nothing and not suited to how I'm approaching it (or I'm just wrong)

Or I'm trading with frustration or some other form of the punters favorite excuse (discipline!!).

Dr Brett has just the post on it, of course he's referenced my blog to get his idea. 

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2008/02/greatest-mistake-traders-make.html


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## Timmy (8 January 2010)

That's a great idea TH and nicely executed too.


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## MS+Tradesim (8 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> But I do review the results of my trades, equity curve, in real time and its probably the biggest help I have stumbled on.




Ditto. I track all sorts of stats to look for patterns in behaviour (mine and the markets). One of the more valuable ones for me has been graphing normalised R returns per trade for discretionary strategies. For example, I've noticed the normalised returns are tending to get smaller for one strategy while the absolute returns are static to slightly growing (someone fixated on the dollars would probably miss the problem!). Some of that I can attribute to slowing volume and volatility (in the area I trade) over the holiday period due to the big guys being away. However, reviewing the trades also reveals that most of them still had more safe movement left in them. As I was scaling up in size, I was unconsciously becoming more risk-averse and booking profits before necessary. I'm now implementing several ideas to combat this. The simplest of which was to hide all references to P/L on Book Trader so it can't distract me.

Dr Brett also has some chapters on reviewing in _Become your own Trading Coach_, but I'd guess readers of his blog would know most of it anyway.

*@Nomore4s:* I don't have anything to add to your OP, except that reviewing is a good way to be pro-active, to reveal patterns of change before they can become too problematic and to reveal positive patterns so they can be identified and reinforced.


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## skyQuake (11 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> In some ways I'm with you. To have a look at a heap of entries and exits can have you chasing your tail. But I do review the results of my trades, equity curve, in real time and its probably the biggest help I have stumbled on.




Why real time? Would it make much of a difference compared to post-trade reviews?


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## Trembling Hand (11 January 2010)

skyQuake said:


> Why real time? Would it make much of a difference compared to post-trade reviews?




Post trade reviews are in some ways useless when you are active discretionary trader. You don't fix a driving error on the couch - you get in the car and practise real time.

Its not the trading as such you are reviewing its your state of mind. How many times have traders looked at yesterdays trades or last week/months and said,

"never again, I need to be more disciplined in my trades"

Its a load of toss. What these people need, IMO, is self awareness and real time ability to monitor their state of mind. Not some BS promise to themselves outside the heat of the battle. That crap don't work. In real time you can if you are aware quickly enough change you approach or state of mind before you blow the day out.


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## skyQuake (11 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Post trade reviews are in some ways useless when you are active discretionary trader. You don't fix a driving error on the couch - you get in the car and practise real time.
> 
> Its not the trading as such you are reviewing its your state of mind. How many times have traders looked at yesterdays trades or last week/months and said,
> 
> ...




Cheers, that makes A LOT of sense for high frequencey discretionary. Going through a few hundred trades on the HSI at the end of day isn't that helpful 
I guess its less relevant for equities or mechanical trades.
Welcome back!


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## MRC & Co (11 January 2010)

Completely agree TH.  Good posts.  Self awareness in the heat of battle is very hard, yet paramount.


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## ThingyMajiggy (11 January 2010)

Interesting TH, what do you do to actually review your state of mind? At the rate you trade I would have thought it would be reasonably hard to review anything? Do you use NTs account performance thing?


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## Trembling Hand (11 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Interesting TH, what do you do to actually review your state of mind?




Pretty simple. If you don't or can't you should not be trading, on any time frame.

The equity curve will tell you most things ya wanna know. If you _know _you have positive expectancy and it turns negative it is not too hard to figure out whats happening.

:error:

:aufreg:


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## Wysiwyg (11 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> The equity curve will tell you most things ya wanna know. *If you know you have positive expectancy and it turns negative it is not too hard to figure out whats happening.*



Hmmm, that is interesting. What is obviously happening to make the positive expectation not so?


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## ThingyMajiggy (11 January 2010)

Yeah I agree with all that, I keep progress manually, I was more after HOW you actually do it, like if you do it in excel or NT etc.


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## Trembling Hand (11 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Yeah I agree with all that, I keep progress manually, I was more after HOW you actually do it, like if you do it in excel or NT etc.




Excel via API.


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## ThingyMajiggy (11 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Excel via API.




Cheers mate  makes sense now


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## Wysiwyg (11 January 2010)

Frank D said:


> *Market conditions, market conditions and market conditions.*




Additionally, Company Management Decisions have a huge bearing on stock movement. This is something that cannot be factored in to any positively expectant trade plan. 

For example my last three trades (3 in a row) have resulted in rapid share price declines. One Management decision was to delay exploration proceedings not once but three times, the next Management decision was to reverse a planned decision to mine and thirdly a Management decision to review an inter company contractual agreement while terminating the present contract agreement.

Apart from selling at or beyond stop loss price, there is not anything else I can see that could be done.


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## skc (11 January 2010)

I agree with the OP... trading is a business. Review is essential to business improvements. The equity curve is the P&L, but in depth, trade by trade review can reveal much more than one expects.

I did some review of my trades on "My 99 trades" thread. It was incredibly helpful to put things on paper and see how stops were moved and exits were managed. And that's just one aspect of trading that I reviewed.

From this year I am going to try to keep my stock charts updated with entry, exit, stops, targets and thought bubbles...and review 2 weeks after the close of trade.

Let's see if I can keep that up.


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> The equity curve will tell you most things ya wanna know.




How many different patterns would you say your equity curve follows? I'm assuming after a while you would see the same pattern show up multiple times. 
I guess you could even label them as well; "what tired trading looks like" "what unfocused trading looks like" "what agro trading looks like" etc and from there you could spot the starting of such a pattern and become self aware before you screw yourself.


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## CanOz (12 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> The equity curve will tell you most things ya wanna know. If you _know _you have positive expectancy and it turns negative it is not too hard to figure out whats happening.




What would happen to your equity curve if you plotted a line along side it, a couple of SDs away and then stopped trading once your curve hit this? Can you use a system stop like this? How would it work?

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (12 January 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> How many different patterns would you say your equity curve follows? I'm assuming after a while you would see the same pattern show up multiple times.
> I guess you could even label them as well; "what tired trading looks like" "what unfocused trading looks like" "what agro trading looks like" etc and from there you could spot the starting of such a pattern and become self aware before you screw yourself.



 Yep, they fall into two broad categories, 1. **** market - walk away, or try something different. and 2. **** trading - and yep there is certainly patterns to my poor trading.



CanOz said:


> What would happen to your equity curve if you plotted a line along side it, a couple of SDs away and then stopped trading once your curve hit this? Can you use a system stop like this? How would it work?
> 
> CanOz



I would end up losing lots of money, LOTS. I know my trading works. stopping because of a intraday draw down (ie not because I've hit the daily stop) would drag my average day way way way down. That's the same reason why when I'm having a good day I increase my position size and push harder - daily targets are for the :bunny: 's


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2010)

CanOz said:


> What would happen to your equity curve if you plotted a line along side it, a couple of SDs away and then stopped trading once your curve hit this? Can you use a system stop like this? How would it work?
> 
> CanOz




The name for that is equity curve trading, Howard Bandy has done a few posts on here about it if your interested.


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2010)

MRC & Co said:


> As far as a review process, unfortunately, I don't have much to offer there.  I don't really have any specific 'set-ups' as such, it is far too discretionary.  I tried to review my trades for a long time, but soon realised it was pointless for my style.  Too many factors go into making a decision, and things change so quick I am constantly updating my style to the market conditions.



Ever tried TraderDNA?


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## Trembling Hand (12 January 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> Ever tried TraderDNA?




Have you? Would be interested to see what it spits out. NT has some of the stats but nowhere as deep as DNA. The thing I find now is that I don't really need to look at them as you kinda now what happens after a while.

Are you trading for someone NS?


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## MRC & Co (12 January 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> Ever tried TraderDNA?




Heard of it, remember reading about it a long time ago, but can't remember a thing of it now.

Care to elaborate?


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Have you? Would be interested to see what it spits out. NT has some of the stats but nowhere as deep as DNA. The thing I find now is that I don't really need to look at them as you kinda now what happens after a while.
> 
> Are you trading for someone NS?




I just got it myself, so still getting used to it. Im supposed to be getting a run through of it tonight (over the phone). The company is very dodgy however, website is buggy and unfinished, uploading trades is buggy, customer service is crap (everyone is always in "meetings"), I couldn't even pay them because the website doesn't even work with international transactions (so they have given it to me for free lol).

It is kind of similar to what nt can do, but 100 times more in depth. 

What made me bring it up was you and mrc saying you dont have time to go over each of your trades, and instead you find looking at how _you _performed most beneficial.. that's basically what it focuses on. You cant really use it for individual trade optimizations.. its made for _trading _optimization. 

Nope not trading for anyone.


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## skyQuake (12 January 2010)

I think me and mrc & co saw it a long while ago; They had some offer with TT as a package but was still heaps expensive.
What irked me most (at that time) was that you had to send your data over the net to them and they'll do the analysis for you and send it back.
As long as you're small fish you should be fine. If you do sizable volume they can accumulate data on you and 'learn' how you trades and your setups etc.
Worse still if you have big open positions that they can squeeze.


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2010)

skyQuake said:


> I think me and mrc & co saw it a long while ago; They had some offer with TT as a package but was still heaps expensive.
> What irked me most (at that time) was that you had to send your data over the net to them and they'll do the analysis for you and send it back.
> As long as you're small fish you should be fine. If you do sizable volume they can accumulate data on you and 'learn' how you trades and your setups etc.
> Worse still if you have big open positions that they can squeeze.




well they have a few different products, what you are talking about is their "one time analysis" where you send them all your trading data and they go over it and tell you whats what.

For the standard thing, which is $US100/month, you upload your execution data to their website, they then manually initiate the import process where they match you data up with their market data (dont know why this is manual, I will ask them tonight), and then on the platform you download you can start doing all sorts of stuff to the data.

Its made for short term discretionary trading, you wouldn't have big open positions when you upload your data at the end of the day.

Also, it seems to be half run by people at RCG because all the emails I get are ****@rcgdirect.com


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## MS+Tradesim (12 January 2010)

Anyone else got an equity curve that looks like this?  I would like to know if anyone else is doing the improbable. Would make me feel better.

MRC, this is from my Soros inspired idea.

.


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## Trembling Hand (12 January 2010)

NS you should have a look at the new Ninja Trader when it comes out. From what I have seen it will give DNA a run for its money and it will do 1000x more and would be much cheaper.


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## Trembling Hand (12 January 2010)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Anyone else got an equity curve that looks like this?  I would like to know if anyone else is doing the improbable. Would make me feel better.




Looks sweet what time period/trade # or how many Rs is that


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## Mr J (12 January 2010)

Very smooth, what's the sample size?


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2010)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Anyone else got an equity curve that looks like this?  I would like to know if anyone else is doing the improbable. Would make me feel better.
> 
> MRC, this is from my Soros inspired idea.
> 
> .




Looks like you have not taken one loss. I would say you are headed for a blowup, whats your average R:R?


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## MS+Tradesim (12 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Looks sweet what time period/trade # or how many Rs is that




This particular concept has yielded 45 trades in about 2mths. I realise it's not enough of a decent sample, but just curious if others have had similar curves from discretionary ideas. I'm avoiding conclusions - it's too early yet.

It includes one loss, which is also why results are not meaningful yet.


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## Naked shorts (12 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> NS you should have a look at the new Ninja Trader when it comes out. From what I have seen it will give DNA a run for its money and it will do 1000x more and would be much cheaper.




Yeah I'm looking forward to it, I really want them to increase their T&S time stamp granularity...Are you one of their beta testers?


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## skc (12 January 2010)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Anyone else got an equity curve that looks like this?  I would like to know if anyone else is doing the improbable. Would make me feel better.
> 
> MRC, this is from my Soros inspired idea.
> 
> .




Nice curve, MS. This is mine from Pairs Trading.




265 trades over 6-7 months. 
Max loss ~2.7% so return / risk ~35x. 
Max drawdown ~5.4%.
The dotted line below the curve is a MA50 of the closed equity. So I am kind of in a down trend...


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## MS+Tradesim (12 January 2010)

Thanks skc. That's the kind of reply I'm looking for. I take it that your pair trading is more mechanical than discretionary?


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## Wysiwyg (12 January 2010)

Obviously disappointing for me but this was my equity curve from June 2009 to October 2009 (attempting) discretionary short term/scalp trading with CFD mini commodities, FX, indices and ASX shares. Except for a larger loss from a news spike against me (gapped SL); the rest were whittles.

Stopped doing that **** now and certainly learned a lot.


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## skc (12 January 2010)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Thanks skc. That's the kind of reply I'm looking for. I take it that your pair trading is more mechanical than discretionary?




It's a mix. 

Mechanical in a sense that it is a mean reversion strategy where signals are generated when the price ratio of a pair moves too far away from their mean.

Discretionary because I check the individual price charts on every trade, and put in a fair bit of time on checking fundamentals. This often means not taking some signals, or waiting a day before putting on the pair. I also exit with some discretion, especially when it comes to taking profits.

The pairs trading journal thread has more info.


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## skc (12 January 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Obviously disappointing for me but this was my equity curve from June 2009 to October 2009 (attempting) discretionary short term/scalp trading with CFD mini commodities, FX, indices and ASX shares. Except for a larger loss from a news spike against me (gapped SL); the rest were whittles.
> 
> Stopped doing that **** now and certainly learned a lot.




Is that last data point a really good trade, or a plotting error? 

As we are talking trading review... would your results be better if you don't trade around news?


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## Wysiwyg (12 January 2010)

skc said:


> Is that last data point a really good trade, or a plotting error?



I'm fairly sure it is because I withdrew all funds so account reverted back to zero. 


> As we are talking trading review... would your results be better if you don't trade around news?



Yes that event peeved me much because the BOE interest rates remained unchanged but on the minute the price popped +100 pips regardless. Checked on Forex Factory Forum afterward and there were other posters surprised that such a reaction took place. 

So yes, don't trade during news events unless good at two up.  I'm more suited to fewer trades for longer durations.


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## Trembling Hand (12 January 2010)

While we are posting our equity curve pr0n, here is mine on the HSI for the 6 days I've been back at it this year. Including commish cost (Note shabby start see Blog for excuses)




SPI & CL results note posted in an attempt to make me look better.


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## Trembling Hand (12 January 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Obviously disappointing for me but this was my equity curve from June 2009 to October 2009 (attempting) discretionary short term/scalp trading......
> 
> Stopped doing that **** now and certainly learned a lot.



 As this is a review thread would you mind telling us what you learned?


Wysiwyg said:


> So yes, don't trade during news events unless good at two up.  I'm more suited to fewer trades for longer durations.



Of course the only reason you went live was because you had a couple of months on the two up sim? And your results were positive?


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## Wysiwyg (12 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> As this is a review thread would you mind telling us what you learned?



Sure. I realised that I don't have the skill at this stage to trade short term/scalp on judgment alone. 



> Of course the only reason you went live was because you had a couple of months on the two up sim? And your results were positive?



No, I needed to make some quick cash.


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## MS+Tradesim (12 January 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> I would say you are headed for a blowup,




Now I remember why I stopped visiting here. Because *I* allowed this stupid comment to affect me, *I* doubted myself and missed a big winning trade. 

So there's a *good review lesson*. Try to ignore the random noise from people who have no idea what you're doing but feel the need to make uninformed comments anyway. And also sift the advice you receive from people who do know what they're talking about, because it may not apply to what you're doing.

TH, if you ever set up a closed group or forum, invite me over. Love your pr0n.

I'm going dark again. Goodbye peeps.


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## ThingyMajiggy (12 January 2010)

Might as well join the bandwagon, this is my last couple of weeks, doesn't mean much I know but I have been trading when I can, whilst having my regular job also. My aim has been to get more and more consistent. Constant review has enabled me to sharpen up on things, I tend to do more live reviewing like TH when I can, rather than having a set time at the end of the week/month etc. I think its helped my consistency.


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## Trembling Hand (13 January 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> No, I needed to make some quick cash.




lol, this is a joke - surely?


----------



## Mr J (13 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> While we are posting our equity curve pr0n, here is mine on the HSI for the 6 days I've been back at it this year. Including commish cost (Note shabby start see Blog for excuses)




Just breaking even would have been extremely impressive to me. Can't imagine the kind of skill required to overcome the spread and commissions on such shorterm trading, let alone doing it 100 times a day.


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## skc (13 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Might as well join the bandwagon, this is my last couple of weeks, doesn't mean much I know but I have been trading when I can, whilst having my regular job also. My aim has been to get more and more consistent. Constant review has enabled me to sharpen up on things, I tend to do more live reviewing like TH when I can, rather than having a set time at the end of the week/month etc. I think its helped my consistency.




Best looking equity chart of them all! I am doing mine in 3D from now on!

There should probably be a thread called "I will show you mine if you show me yours (equity curve)".

But let's talk trade review more because I am very interested in that.


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## Trembling Hand (13 January 2010)

skc said:


> But let's talk trade review more because I am very interested in that.



Yes good thread. Back to the review, at the heart of success 







nomore4s said:


> To me trading is a business and should be run like a business. A good business operator understands their business inside and out and trading should be no different.* This means understanding why it is making money (profitable periods) or why it is losing money (draw-down periods) and then acting on that information to help reduce draw-down or enhance profitable periods*. Think of any successful company and they will all run extensive review processes to try to find ways to improve their businesses, so why should our trading be any different?
> 
> Finding ways to improve all aspects of your trading is made easier by understanding exactly what you are doing right and what areas you struggle in, this is where a solid review process comes in.




And sadly the same ol, same ol victims,



> I needed to make some quick cash.


----------



## skyQuake (13 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yes good thread. Back to the review, at the heart of success
> 
> And sadly the same ol, same ol victims,




Think thats a tongue in cheek comment.
Otherwise might as well buy a scratchie - more thrills, less damaging.


----------



## Trembling Hand (13 January 2010)

skyQuake said:


> Think thats a tongue in cheek comment.
> Otherwise might as well buy a scratchie - more thrills, less damaging.




But looking at the equity curve its clear that some never learn. Although there is enough info on these pages to make you a gun 10x over intentionally or not too many still approach it like quick money not a business.


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## swm79 (13 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> But looking at the equity curve its clear that some never learn. Although there is enough info on these pages to make you a gun 10x over intentionally or not too many still approach it like quick money not a business.




give them time.... and let them lose about $20k-$50k and they'll realise that its not all fun and games and a quick buck... that its actually a war.

but some will get lucky and never learn.

others.... me included... learn the hard way.


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## nomore4s (13 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> But looking at the equity curve its clear that some never learn. Although there is enough info on these pages to make you a gun 10x over intentionally or not too many still approach it like quick money not a business.




Most aren't interested in doing the work imo. Read a few books and think it is easy without ever getting a true understanding of what really makes a trader successful.


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## Naked shorts (13 January 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> (dont know why this is manual, I will ask them tonight)




So the reason is the company is only 3 people and they haven't got around to making the system fully automated yet.



Naked shorts said:


> Also, it seems to be half run by people at RCG because all the emails I get are ****@rcgdirect.com




And yeah, it was originally intended for RCG customers.


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## ThingyMajiggy (13 January 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Most aren't interested in doing the work imo. Read a few books and think it is easy without ever getting a true understanding of what really makes a trader successful.




And what do you think makes a successful trader? How many people have to get bitten before people learn there is no get rich quick? I think laziness rules. I would be interested to know how much people study etc


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## nomore4s (13 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> And what do you think makes a successful trader? How many people have to get bitten before people learn there is no get rich quick? I think laziness rules. I would be interested to know how much people study etc




It's not just how much practice/study, it's how you practice/study imo


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## Mr J (13 January 2010)

Work smart, not hard? And why can't smart be simple and easy?


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## Trembling Hand (13 January 2010)

Mr J said:


> Work smart, not hard?




10,000 hours of deliberative practise isn't hard??


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## Mr J (13 January 2010)

That would be subjective, TH. Two different people could view the same work in two different ways. Also, perhaps those 10,000 hours was hard, but now it has become easy? I got into trouble for saying I thought trading trading was easy, but I never suggested it was an easy journey.


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## ThingyMajiggy (13 January 2010)

nomore4s said:


> It's not just how much practice/study, it's how you practice/study imo




Exactly. I mean studying as in screen time, experience, learning your market etc. Not just reading books and expecting to be pro. Also back to reviewing, have you guys ever noticed any patterns throughout the day? For example, spotting patterns that show you perform better in the morning than the afternoon.


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## nomore4s (13 January 2010)

Mr J said:


> That would be subjective, TH. Two different people could view the same work in two different ways. Also, perhaps those 10,000 hours was hard, but now it has become easy? I got into trouble for saying I thought trading trading was easy, but I never suggested it was an easy journey.






Trembling Hand said:


> 10,000 hours of deliberative practise isn't hard??




Deliberative practice by its very nature is designed to be hard and test your skills. The point is it shouldn't be easy.

This is why so few people make it to the elite level in any field.


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## Wysiwyg (13 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> lol, this is a joke - surely?



No but if it humours anyone I will be happy.


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## Synergy (16 January 2010)

I guess there are really 2 separate reviews for each trade.

1 - Did you follow the trade as planned (yes/no)

2 - Was the plan valid, or right for this trade (complicated)

The first is a simple yes/no, but just saying 'yes' or 'no' after a trade doesn't really cut it.

After an initial fairly unsuccessful period with trading, I put some thought into how to make myself better follow the plan, as that was where the problem was. It's difficult to punish yourself for doing things against your plan.

For me, the best way to cure my problem was to plot a 'theoretical equity' against my actual equity. The aim for my trading was and still is to track the theoretical line. Deviations to the plan usually result in a loss compared to the theoretical curve. If i deviate, i'll likely see the theoretical line, what should have been, move up above the actual equity. Even months down the track the mistake is still there to see.

If the two lines move too far appart, I'll probably add a third line, restarting the theoretical curve from that point, so I can review my trades properly. I'll leave the original theoretical line in place to remind me of what should have been.


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## Naked shorts (20 January 2010)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Anyone else got an equity curve that looks like this?  I would like to know if anyone else is doing the improbable. Would make me feel better.




I do actually..

m i good?


(real money, numbers have been skewed)


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## Naked shorts (20 January 2010)

Naked shorts said:


> m i good?




wait... never mind


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## ThingyMajiggy (29 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> How many times have it been said about back testing, forward testing and simming so you *know *you will be successful and why/when before you lay a dollar down?




Interesting part of THs post in the Phoenix thread. 

When should one stop simming and start on live in your opinion? (not directed only at TH btw) 

If you have been simming, with good results, when does that point come you should choose to go live? 100 trades? 1000? 10000? 

Interested to hear thoughts, as I pretty much have no idea tbh, I feel I should just keep simming until I feel absolutely certain and 100% confident I can be profitable? Even though my stats aren't that bad and I have done well  on well over 100+ trades


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## MRC & Co (29 January 2010)

No time like the present.  Your never 100% confident with trading, the markets always change, your just taking a punt in the end, a punt that your 'edge' will remain or that you are adapting your edge.  When markets change, you have unprofitable periods sometimes, until your upto date with the markets again and on the same wave-length.

Just MO.


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## white_goodman (29 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Interesting part of THs post in the Phoenix thread.
> 
> When should one stop simming and start on live in your opinion? (not directed only at TH btw)
> 
> ...




well 'we' have been doing around 100 or so trades a day for 3 months and are almost going live, so 60 trade days = 6000 trades.... sounds bout right..

but yeh ur right, ultimately it depends on your timeframe, confidence and sim history


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## ThingyMajiggy (29 January 2010)

MRC & Co said:


> No time like the present.  Your never 100% confident with trading, the markets always change, your just taking a punt in the end, a punt that your 'edge' will remain or that you are adapting your edge.  When markets change, you have unprofitable periods sometimes, until your upto date with the markets again and on the same wave-length.
> 
> Just MO.




Hmm yeah I guess. Its irritating me, because I am doing quite well on my sim accounts, but as soon as I try a live trade, it turns to ****, I always seem to get in too early and take profit too quick, because I must be too fearful or something, so I then go back to simming rather than milking it and losing too much real stuff, but when I go back to sim I do well again


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## crown (29 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Hmm yeah I guess. Its irritating me, because I am doing quite well on my sim accounts, but as soon as I try a live trade, it turns to ****, I always seem to get in too early and take profit too quick, because I must be too fearful or something, so I then go back to simming rather than milking it and losing too much real stuff, but when I go back to sim I do well again




My current experience of what you describe, has come down to insufficient starting capital.

The confidence to take the position, 1 that you know is a winner, but dont hold it because it needs to be banked. Only to see it run off and do 200 points on the perfect entry.
Heartbreaking stuff.


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## Trembling Hand (29 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> When should one stop simming and start on live in your opinion? (not directed only at TH btw)
> 
> If you have been simming, with good results, when does that point come you should choose to go live? 100 trades? 1000? 10000?
> 
> Interested to hear thoughts, as I pretty much have no idea tbh, I feel I should just keep simming until I feel absolutely certain and 100% confident I can be profitable? Even though my stats aren't that bad and I have done well  on well over 100+ trades




May I offer my humble drunken opinion? I believe its two fold

Its a matter of steps, correct steps. In backtesting/simming there is a lot more going on than just learning how to trade patterns. It enables you to develop in a non-threatening way other market skills. Have a look at the last post off the madman thread. Thats pure inexperience - nothing but time will cure that waffle.

And Mr C has hit on the other point thats important IMO. Once you have been there you know what it looks like, real profitability, hopefully when the market changes you can firstly recognise it and then adapt with what is worth keeping of your old approach. Doing it first on sim just expands your experience without the torment of real $$'s.


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## ThingyMajiggy (29 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> May I offer my humble drunken opinion? I believe its two fold



Go ya hardest 



Trembling Hand said:


> Its a matter of steps, correct steps. In backtesting/simming there is a lot more going on than just learning how to trade patterns. It enables you to develop in a non-threatening way other market skills. Have a look at the last post off the madman thread. Thats pure inexperience - nothing but time will cure that waffle.




What other market skills? How does one know if they are the correct steps? What ARE those steps? 

I think most of the time that a new trader is learning, he is sorting through all the **** that is around, swapping from method to method, all the Holy Grails  It takes that long to realize how markets move, realize what is ACTUALLY going to make him profitable...and by then hes either blown up multiple times or quit, or both. Thats how its been for me anyway, apart from the quitting bit. I've spent most of my time sorting through all the BS thats out there, its only been recent months that I have even began to understand, get a hint at what it actually takes, of which I am probably far off. 

The ones that do know what it takes(_really_ know, not just think they know), are too busy doing it to help too much, its like goldmines, not going to scream and shout when you find it I guess. After all, if it wasn't for all the losing traders, there wouldn't any successful ones I suppose lol


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## Trembling Hand (29 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Hmm yeah I guess. Its irritating me, because I am doing quite well on my sim accounts, but as soon as I try a live trade, it turns to ****, I always seem to get in too early and take profit too quick, because I must be too fearful or something, so I then go back to simming rather than milking it and losing too much real stuff, but when I go back to sim I do well again




As I'm in no state to be handing out advise but I will 2 more things,

1 Harden the **** up, its meant to hurt. 

2. http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2010/01/decision-making-in-trading-how.html


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## nomore4s (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> As I'm in no state to be handing out advise but I will 2 more things,
> 
> 1 Harden the **** up, its meant to hurt.
> 
> 2. http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2010/01/decision-making-in-trading-how.html




That is a great post by Brett Steenbarger.
Thanks TH.


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## ThingyMajiggy (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> As I'm in no state to be handing out advise but I will 2 more things,
> 
> 1 Harden the **** up, its meant to hurt.
> 
> 2. http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2010/01/decision-making-in-trading-how.html




Harden the stars up, wow great, is that all it takes! Cheers! 

Yes thats a great post, but thats it. Doesn't help in any way whatsoever as far as I'm concerned, hes just pointing the usual stuff out, adding the lame "its like XYZ" stories and thats it. How does that help anyone? So you say " OK I will make sure I can trade under pressure"? Yeah BS. Or "OK I will make sure I look at the whole picture to come to a reasonable hypothesis next time". Sure you will.


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## Trembling Hand (30 January 2010)

Sam your the punter thats a wins on a sim but crap live. You tell us why?

I'll just re-quote the last paragraph cuz i like it:



> It's that ability to see the whole field under pressure that distinguishes many of the best traders from many of the rest. Anyone can pick out the right targets when they have all the time in the world; the challenge is learning decision-making so well--and making it so second nature--that the right actions will come to you even in the heat of the moment. That is why practice under realistic conditions, eventually with money on the line, is crucial to the developing trader: We learn to perform only by repeatedly facing the pressures of risk, reward, gain, and loss.




I also like this :aliena:


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## ThingyMajiggy (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Sam your the punter thats a wins on a sim but crap live. You tell us why?





If I knew why, would I be crap on live? I'm thinking that I chase the market because I'm impatient, that may be my problem, but who knows? How does one work on such a problem? Sim till they are blue in the face? I _have_ been "practicing under realistic conditions"? 

Perhaps I just need more, this is my point, when does the time come you think you should go live. 

Why do you KNOW you are profitable TH? Did you sim for years on end, whilst blowing up multiple accounts? Genuinely interested, not havin a go 

I like this one :bananasmi


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## MRC & Co (30 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> If I knew why, would I be crap on live? I'm thinking that I chase the market because I'm impatient, that may be my problem, but who knows? How does one work on such a problem? Sim till they are blue in the face? I _have_ been "practicing under realistic conditions"?




You just told us the answer.  Only you know the difference, only you can work on that.  

If you think it's because your impatient and chase the market, then don't chase it!  Simple as that.  It is your greed getting in the way, and the fear of missing out on the move and then you get chopped up instead for chasing it!  You should work on this problem live I believe.  If you know what your edge is on the SIM, then you will know what you are doing different live and you can work on it in a real environment.

I think your biggest problem, is you want to 'KNOW', impossible.  Nothing in trading is sure, same as life.


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## Trembling Hand (30 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Why do you KNOW you are profitable TH? Did you sim for years on end, whilst blowing up multiple accounts? Genuinely interested, not havin a go



 yep I've blown some $'s or three. But during that time I could see mostly improvement. The biggest gains came during two periods, 1st was when I got over all the TA gumph and started to practise correctly MY ideas on sim and got results. The second was a true "Ahrrha moment" that may be in a book one day :



ThingyMajiggy said:


> If I knew why, would I be crap on live? I'm thinking that I chase the market because I'm impatient, that may be my problem, but who knows? How does one work on such a problem? Sim till they are blue in the face? I _have_ been "practicing under realistic conditions"?
> 
> Perhaps I just need more, this is my point, when does the time come you think you should go live.



How realistic is this? Its certainly not deliberative practise.


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## ThingyMajiggy (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> yep I've blown some $'s or three. But during that time I could see mostly improvement. The biggest gains came during two periods, 1st was when I got over all the TA gumph and started to practise correctly MY ideas on sim and got results. The second was a true "Ahrrha moment" that may be in a book one day :




lol right. You wanna be paid for the 2nd idea, I get it. :




Trembling Hand said:


> How realistic is this? Its certainly not deliberative practise.




Not very realistic, I said that in one of my posts in that thread and on my blog. The first graphs I posted where I was up 60 points or whatever it was, and left the trade on over the break, they were realistic. Nothing realistic about those ones though, I was just going nuts to see what was capable. I don't plan on trading HSI live until way down the track anyway. 

Cheers for the um....help.


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## Trembling Hand (30 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Cheers for the um....help.




Oh sorry you wanted me to help YOU. That will be possible with my private tuition after the book .

In the mean time try answering these questions every morning for the next month.



> What are you working on in your trading? How will you be working on it? How will you know whether or not you're successful?




http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2010/01/from-trading-goals-to-trading.html


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## ThingyMajiggy (30 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Oh sorry you wanted me to help YOU. That will be possible with my private tuition after he book .
> 
> In the mean time try answering these questions every morning for the next month.
> 
> http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2010/01/from-trading-goals-to-trading.html




It wouldn't be helping just ME. It's a forum  Might actually get some quality posts on here for once, but nevermind. 

Cheers for the link


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## MRC & Co (30 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> It wouldn't be helping just ME. It's a forum  Might actually get some quality posts on here for once, but nevermind.
> 
> Cheers for the link




And this is the problem with a lot of forum posters, you can't help yourself, your looking for something that just isn't there!


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## Naked shorts (30 January 2010)

Finally!! TH is bringing out a book!!


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## SmellyTerror (31 January 2010)

> The ones that do know what it takes(really know, not just think they know), are too busy doing it to help too much, its like goldmines, not going to scream and shout when you find it I guess.  … It wouldn't be helping just ME. It's a forum  Might actually get some quality posts on here for once, but nevermind.




He's got an edge, and if it's something that can be explained on a forum, then everyone would try it, and that would kill the edge. If I see a pattern that will always give me 10 pips, and I tell everyone, that bid is going to get awful crowded. People will think: hey, 9 pips will do. Then that bid'll get crowded, and people will decide they're happy with 8. 

Until it's dead.

Keeping in mind that I don't actually know anything: but that's what makes this all so frustrating for us folk at home. We can't even get a sense of a real, working plan _that can be explained_. We can get old ones that stopped working years ago - and they stopped working largely *because* we (and hence everyone else) can get them. We can find stuff that can't really be explained (get screen time), and we can learn things that still work only because they only barely work (TA). But there's no "here, do this". It’s hard to know what we’re even practicing.

Which, when you think about it, is one of the coolest parts of the whole game.

My plan, which may be stupid, but it is mine ( : ), is to start with a vague half-system (see here if you want a quick run down, somewhere in that terrible mass of text), trade it, and then review the crap out of it. I figure you're not going to find anything new unless you're in there, elbow deep. Learning why the crap you learned from some guru *doesn't work *is still learning something. 

Pretend that it *should* work. Rage when you fail. Demolish every trade you make to see wtf just happened. I’ve got charts with scribble all over ‘em. What did I think I was going to get? Why? What ACTUALLY happened? Go look stuff up to explain why the thing I thought was certain didn’t work at all. What else might it have been? What *wasn’t* I watching? What should I have done, and was there some way I could have known that? Or did I do as well as I could have done, and can I do that again? Pin those charts on the corkboard over my monitor with the “other stuff I need to watch” notes highlighted, and when I see that pattern again – QUICK, what’s going on in the JPY/USD? What’s volume doing? Did any of that do something weird? Is there something happening that I should recognise? Stick that chart next to the other chart.

And some day, just as I would in a computer game, I’ll know when I know what to do, and what to try when I don’t know what to do. You can’t adapt until you’ve got something to adapt.

…and I really don’t have anything at all yet. I’m not even an amateur. There might be patterns that 10% of the time are indicated by that thing over there, and the rest of the time something completely different. How many times do I have to see that 10%-er to recognise it? A hundred times, for something that only comes along every couple of days? I can only stick crap to my board because I’ve been doing this for about 5 minutes. I’m going to have to make files or something. Read ‘em on the bog. Maybe shuffle all my pages and try to sort them again, to see if there are similarities I’m missing. Is it the time of day, or what some market is doing, or was I at the end of a run of stupid losses and getting cranky? I need to make theories so I can bump them on the head. I need to have stupid ideas just so I can go and see why they’re stupid. I need to know what my good ideas are if I’m going to keep doing them. It’s not science unless you can tell when you’re wrong.

Sorry, I keep writing stupidly long posts with tenuous reference to the subject. But don’t you think all of this is cool? It’s like being able to get into the guts of the universe to see how it works. I’ve paid money to play games that *this game* craps all over.

I’d sim for fun. The possibility of getting paid for this is beyond cool.


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## nomore4s (31 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Harden the stars up, wow great, is that all it takes! Cheers!
> 
> Yes thats a great post, but thats it. Doesn't help in any way whatsoever as far as I'm concerned, hes just pointing the usual stuff out, adding the lame "its like XYZ" stories and thats it. How does that help anyone? So you say " OK I will make sure I can trade under pressure"? Yeah BS. Or "OK I will make sure I look at the whole picture to come to a reasonable hypothesis next time". Sure you will.




Sam you're missing the point a bit.

You need to identify these problems and then you need to address them. It is a bit like trying to break a bad habit, it's not just saying I need to stop doing it, you need to put procedures or triggers in place that help you identify that you are making these mistakes in the heat of battle and then enable you to take a step back, refocus and then hopefully re-enter the heat of battle again with the right mindset.
But you need to be able to execute these procedures in the heat of battle while under stress when it really matters, this is what makes a great performers in any field - the ability to execute their skills when it matters most and being able to do it regularly.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> If I knew why, would I be crap on live? I'm thinking that I chase the market because I'm impatient, that may be my problem, but who knows? How does one work on such a problem? Sim till they are blue in the face? I _have_ been "practicing under realistic conditions"?
> 
> Perhaps I just need more, this is my point, when does the time come you think you should go live.




As MrC has already said, it is only you that can identify the reason for this, you are not going to find the answers on any forum.

There is always going to be a certain level of uncertainty when going from sim to live trading. 
Maybe you have gone as far as you can with the sim account and it is time for you to test your skills under live conditions? This might be the only way you can get the answer to your question.

You need to identify why your edge is failing when going live and try to find solutions to that problem. 
Maybe you need to take the next step in your trading and the below part of TH's link applies to you? Maybe you have ended up in a comfort zone by trading on the sim account and are now finding it hard to push outside that comfort zone? And when you do your skills fail under that pressure?
These are questions only you can answer and then find solutions too.


> That is why practice under realistic conditions, *eventually with money on the line*, is crucial to the developing trader: We learn to perform only by repeatedly facing the pressures of risk, reward, gain, and loss.


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## ThingyMajiggy (31 January 2010)

Thanks 4s  I realise its up to me and only I know the answers. My original question was just to see when YOU personally think its time to go from sim to live, and perhaps MrCs first answer straight away nailed it. 

I'm working on my problems, thanks for the suggestions all


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## nomore4s (31 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> It wouldn't be helping just ME. It's a forum  Might actually get some quality posts on here for once, but nevermind.
> 
> Cheers for the link




Sam,

Trading is to a certain extent a individual game. What works for me is going to be a little different to what works for TH or MrC or yourself.

You need to find & understand your own faults and find solutions to them yourself, experienced trades like TH & MrC can only point you in the right direction to finding info that may or maynot help you identify these faults and give you some ideas to help find solutions but at the end of the day it is only you that can implement the change and hard work required to succeed.

Trading is a hard game and you can see why so many fail at it, it can be extremely frustrating at times and that's why so many people go looking for quick and easy solutions.
They can see the potential money on offer but struggle with finding a method to regularly tap into that potential and are forever looking for the holy grail all the while missing what it is that makes a successful trader.


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## ThingyMajiggy (31 January 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Sam,
> 
> Trading is to a certain extent a individual game. What works for me is going to be a little different to what works for TH or MrC or yourself.
> 
> ...




Yes, I know this, it is very much an individual game, I have found this out myself, its not like I haven't done hard work, I do a **** load of studying everyday, every week, I know its an individual game, I know I have to find what suits me etc etc. I'm not expecting those traders to show me every single detail(As if they would anyway!). I don't have any interest in how THEY place their trades, what indicators they use, or how they use them, its more the simple things that can go along way, rather than just chewing their heads  off and leaving. 

If you're implying that I'm looking for a "quick and easy" solution to trading and/or that I'm ever searching for the Holy Grail, then you are wrong. Simple. I have said all along that its not easy, never expected it to be. As far as the search for THE holy grail is concerned, BS. I think there is a HG for you, for me, for each of us. Its finding the method and ways that suit us.


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## nomore4s (31 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> If you're implying that I'm looking for a "quick and easy" solution to trading and/or that I'm ever searching for the Holy Grail, then you are wrong. Simple. I have said all along that its not easy, never expected it to be. As far as the search for THE holy grail is concerned, BS. I think there is a HG for you, for me, for each of us. Its finding the method and ways that suit us.




Sam, I wasn't implying that you were looking for the HG or easy solutions to your problems - I know how much time & effort you put in to your trading.

It was a general statement in regard to most people who come into the markets. How often do you see the newbies post looking for the perfect indicator or whatever? Why do companies selling cr@p trading systems for huge amounts of money keep popping up? You can see why people get sucked in, that's all I was saying.

Maybe it is time for you to take a step back from your study and have a close look at what & how you are practicing and try to refine your study/practice a bit? Review you study methods? Reset you goals & plans to achieve them?
(These are only a suggestions, as I don't know how/what you study/practice or how you set you goals & plans or your method of executing those plans, but as you seem to be getting frustrated it might be time to review everything.)


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## barney (31 January 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Sam,
> 
> Trading is to a certain extent a individual game. What works for me is going to be a little different to what works for TH or MrC or yourself.
> 
> ...




Good post NM4

Sam, there is some quality advice in this thread .... don't discount advice just because its a little cryptic or it doesn't appear to answer your question directly.  A couple of the boyz in this thread have helped me stay in the black for an extended period  

Personally I think whats more important than knowing when to go live, is knowing *when to stop* going live if its not working ...... you have already recognized that point a couple of times without busting the bank, so that is good.

Everytime you lose some cash on the live account, that should give you a wider base to learn from and improve on ....... Funny thing is, you should actually enjoy losing small amounts if its teaching you something of value.  Worst possible thing that can happen to a new trader is he gets lucky early, cause sooner or later he'll probably blow the lot, if the initial wins weren't based on ability.  All the best.


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## ThingyMajiggy (31 January 2010)

nomore4s said:


> Sam, I wasn't implying that you were looking for the HG or easy solutions to your problems - I know how much time & effort you put in to your trading.
> 
> It was a general statement in regard to most people who come into the markets. How often do you see the newbies post looking for the perfect indicator or whatever? Why do companies selling cr@p trading systems for huge amounts of money keep popping up? You can see why people get sucked in, that's all I was saying.




OK  Was just making sure, and yes its easy to see why people get sucked in, alot of BS around. 



nomore4s said:


> Maybe it is time for you to take a step back from your study and have a close look at what & how you are practicing and try to refine your study/practice a bit? Review you study methods? Reset you goals & plans to achieve them?
> (These are only a suggestions, as I don't know how/what you study/practice or how you set you goals & plans or your method of executing those plans, but as you seem to be getting frustrated it might be time to review everything.)




Yeah good suggestions, I have actually been thinking on those things recently, I know there is nothing wrong with the method I am using, or the market, so its obviously me. 

I think I need to be more market focused, not self-focused when I'm trading(thinking about P&L when trading etc). Things like this need work, and more deliberate practice, try some of my ideas, rather than being stupid with my sim trading.(only been stupid recently with HSI, not all the time  ) 

I often think about the bad things too much too, instead of concentrating on my good doings and my strong points, which I think makes a difference, getting distracted by things of self, rather than concentrating on the market. Finding out the patterns of the market is something I want to do aswell, like THs graphs he brings up, I think they are really helpful, also patterns in myself.



barney said:


> Personally I think whats more important than knowing when to go live, is knowing *when to stop* going live if its not working ...... you have already recognized that point a couple of times without busting the bank, so that is good.
> 
> Everytime you lose some cash on the live account, that should give you a wider base to learn from and improve on ....... Funny thing is, you should actually enjoy losing small amounts if its teaching you something of value.  Worst possible thing that can happen to a new trader is he gets lucky early, cause sooner or later he'll probably blow the lot, if the initial wins weren't based on ability.  All the best.




Yeah good points barney, something I need to do more as I said above, focus more on the good. 

I have stopped trading live as soon as I have losses and have a problem in my trading. I tend to focus more on those small losses rather than focusing on the good, the fact that I did exit when I should have etc. 

Cheers


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## MRC & Co (31 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> its more the simple things that can go along way, rather than just chewing their heads  off and leaving.




What are the simple things that will go a long way?  You got a lot of that type of information here from what I saw, but you seemed to just get frustrated even more because you weren't getting told directly what to do.....

The truth of it is, the market goes up, the market goes down, there is no magic to it, just as there is no magic to profit from it.  As an example, look at some of the trades Paul Tudor Jones makes that look rediculous (sells oil because he doesn't believe that several men could come to an agreement on it's price at an OPEC meeting).  Or my example of one reason I thought the risk rally had topped out basically the day it did several days ago, when a Chinese Soverign Wealth Fund manager made comments that the USD was cheap here and they would be buying and then tried to revolke his comments as, 'his opinion only' after the markets sold off and USD was bought on the comments.  Obviously didn't expect the reaction from the markets, so instantly tried to hide his comments after markets reacted, but his first comments were obviously the truth by his reaction to the markets reaction.  Very odd reasons, but they work and a lot of funds will take positions on similar reasons.  

The same as the steps you need to take are extremelly simple, you need to be profitable on SIM, then go live, and replicate it (if that isn't happening, don't jump straight back to SIM, just stay small and work out what is happening different).  Is it the market that has changed instantly, if so, go back to the SIM if you can't adapt quickly, or is it your own psychology?

Find what works for you and the rest is common sense.  You don't need anyone to help you with that.


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