# Australia's Homeless



## Julia (1 July 2013)

A heartbreaking account on Four Corners this evening about those who are homeless or struggling to survive in Australia today.
It followed an account on "PM" of about 40 'regulars' who sleep on Platform 1 at Sydney's Central Station, one woman having been there every night for years.

When I glance down the list of threads on this forum, we have topics such as how much % increase we have seen in our portfolios this year, what's happening with gold, etc etc.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's a stock and investment forum.

But it's in such stark contrast to that whole other world of misery endured by many ordinary Australians.

It's easy for us to write them off as no hopers, people who don't try to take control of their lives, and no doubt that's true of some.  But adverse circumstances can befall the hardest worker, such as sudden and incapacitating illness or redundancy.  The income ceases, the mortgage or the rent can no longer be paid, and suddenly you're on the street.   

Such an instance was depicted on Four Corners with a woman, probably about 40, with a teenage daughter, who was not homeless but who found it nigh impossible to pay rent and utilities out of Newstart, the benefit which she'd been moved to after a short period on a Sickness Benefit.  She was forced to go to a charity to ask for assistance, and to see her moved to tears of gratitude for a $60 supermarket voucher was a reality check for those of us who probably think little about just buying what we want when we want it.  She was thrilled that she was able to buy her teenage daughter 'a decent deodorant'.

I've never been homeless but had a mercifully brief period of being hard up after leaving a marriage.  It was humiliating and socially isolating.  I always knew in a relatively short time I'd be back on my feet.
But for so many people, even just by virtue of their lesser capacity than that most of us enjoy, or their disadvantaged circumstances, poverty becomes a perpetual state.

I have no idea how this can be addressed.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
For that matter, do any of us really care, save the occasional passing "oh, it's awful, isn't it."?


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## MrBurns (1 July 2013)

Julia - snap !

I just sent the link to my sons asking that they watch it, I came in here to post it and you beat me to it.

[video]http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/40370[/video]


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## prawn_86 (1 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I have no idea how this can be addressed.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
> For that matter, do any of us really care, save the occasional passing "oh, it's awful, isn't it."?




I agree that it is a big issue. IMO it is one of the 'problems' of capitalism. When you can make a profit from a pretty basic human right (housing) then there is always going to be those who cannot afford it. Over regulation then also plays a part, in 2nd and 3rd World countries some of the more industrious 'homeless' build shanty towns, it's not much, but it is shelter and a form of community


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## MrBurns (1 July 2013)

It hit me hard, it put a face to the homeless and I'm ashamed we aren't doing more.


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## prawn_86 (1 July 2013)

Perhaps one idea is to start some form of charity to move some of those willing to work out to the country, similar to Woofing, plus a small stipend to get them back on their feet


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## MrBurns (1 July 2013)

Rip the waste out of Govt spending to help these people would be good.
Needs thought you have to help without just throwing money at it, they need dignity , they need work.


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## sptrawler (1 July 2013)

The major drain on peoples money, is housing.
The cost of a house filters down to the rent asked for a house. 
The government needs to gets serious about reducing the incentives, which keep driving up prices. Or get real about building low cost housing.
If neither are done, things will get worse for the poor.


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## boofhead (1 July 2013)

Governments need to get serious about developing public housing. Distributed, some of it designed for 1 or 2 people. Rents charged are important. On top of that is develop suitable inspection systems of said housing and remove people as needed. Desperate people will do what they can to hold on to suitable living. The sooner the riff-raff is moved on the better the areas are for people doing it tough and in need of low cost housing.

Once that is taken care of some smarter development of minimum wage part time work. The programs need to be kept small. Even if it is some weeding for government areas, rubbish collection, some working with green groups, others. Some part time education. From improved literacy and numeracy through to computing skills, understanding finances, certificate 1 level courses (introductory) for disability and aged care (rising demand). A number of people have managed to get paid work in the care industry starting as volunteer. A government subsidy (minimum wage for some brief hours, the hours used as valid Centrelink participation uses) improves their money situation, develops routine, develops verifiable skills, people develop a record of reliability. It is a cost but over time society develops. It is like a smarter work for the dole.

Both points deliver clearer pathways to putting a roof over the head and money in the bank to be able to survive. Reduces anxiety.

As for the 4 Corners story, I was a little suspect about the young male that had paid work, needed to have an operation and returned to find he essentially lost his job and was volunteering to get his foot back in the door. I felt like the nightclub is taking advantage of a bad situation.

Oh, and in a number of months the story will be forgotten. Many will be back to bashing dole bludgers and anyone collecting Newstart for more than a couple of months are not worthy.


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## FlyingFox (1 July 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> I agree that it is a big issue. IMO it is one of the 'problems' of capitalism. When you can make a profit from a pretty basic human right (housing) then there is always going to be those who cannot afford it. Over regulation then also plays a part, in 2nd and 3rd World countries some of the more industrious 'homeless' build shanty towns, it's not much, but it is shelter and a form of community




+1. Consumerism even more. What surprised me was the fact some of the people in the story were employed til very recently but had almost no savings. Granted many are among the lowest paid, but still we have become such consumers with keeping up with the neighbors and taking on debt that savings is a dirty word.


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## sydboy007 (2 July 2013)

Was reading an article about a homeless guy last year.

He'd had a good life, job, wife, then something happened, marriage broke down and before he knew it he was on the streets and one of those people he'd walked past and realised maybe a lot of them aren't no hoping drug addicts.

Once your homeless it's very very hard to get back from that.  Difficult to get any assistance from centrelink and you have to hope a charity might be able to get you back on your feet.

It would be an expensive problem to sort out.  Certainly the Govt could step in to build some affordable housing and set up some programs to help these people move back into society - if they choose.

Surely we can start building some flatpack style accommodation on the cheap?


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## Judd (2 July 2013)

It is one of the conundrums I face when I am asked to donate to charities.  In a country as affluent as ours is supposed to be, I find it almost contradictory that charities are needed to assist our fellow citizens.

I don't donate to those which are associated, worthy though they may be, with researching diseases as I consider it to be a public health issue and, as such, should be adequately funded at a Federal level in order to reduce future health care costs if possible, plus it fragments to research dollar.

So the only way I can resolve my own conflict is to donate to those charities specifically to assist the homeless, especially youth plus to involved in overseas aid, such as Doctors without borders.

A weird approach I know, but that is the only way I can personally resolve my attitude.  Others do it differently.


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## Knobby22 (2 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> The major drain on peoples money, is housing.
> The cost of a house filters down to the rent asked for a house.
> The government needs to gets serious about reducing the incentives, which keep driving up prices. Or get real about building low cost housing.
> If neither are done, things will get worse for the poor.




True. I agree. We should change the tax system to encourage new cheap housing rather than pushing up the prices of existing housing.


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## MrBurns (4 July 2013)

We need to identify the genuine cases first...........weed out the rorters then use those savings to REALLY help those in genuine need.


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## Gringotts Bank (4 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I have no idea how this can be addressed.  Does anyone have any suggestions?




Very simple.  You go down to Hardcase St and you ask any one of the homeless people if he'd like to use a spare room in your house, rent free.  When he has a job and is back on his feet, you repeat the process.

ASF policy-making amounts to nought.


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## Calliope (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Very simple.  You go down to Hardcase St and you ask any one of the homeless people if he'd like to use a spare room in your house, rent free.  When he has a job and is back on his feet, you repeat the process.
> 
> ASF policy-making amounts to nought.




+ 1


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## MrBurns (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Very simple.  You go down to Hardcase St and you ask any one of the homeless people if he'd like to use a spare room in your house, rent free.  When he has a job and is back on his feet, you repeat the process.
> 
> ASF policy-making amounts to nought.




That's a great idea, can I pay him too ?


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## Gringotts Bank (4 July 2013)

MrBurns said:


> That's a great idea, can I pay him too ?




You wouldn't have to pay him because you wouldn't take him in the first place.  You'd prefer to partake in web forum policy-making, which does nothing except ask "how can we get _someone else_ to fix this problem?"


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## MrBurns (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> You wouldn't have to pay him because you wouldn't take him in the first place.  You'd prefer to partake in web forum policy-making, which does nothing except ask "how can we get _someone else_ to fix this problem?"




The Govt is responsible for such matters.

Do you seriously expect individuals to take matters into their own hands ?


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## Zedd (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Very simple.  You go down to Hardcase St and you ask any one of the homeless people if he'd like to use a spare room in your house, rent free.  When he has a job and is back on his feet, you repeat the process.




+1



Gringotts Bank said:


> ASF policy-making amounts to nought.



-1 Better it's discussed than not.


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## Calliope (4 July 2013)

Mr Rudd already has the problem in hand. *In May 2008* he included the homeless in his his Social Inclusion Agenda. Problem solved.



> But yesterday, the homelessness paper - Which Way Home - allowed the Prime Minister back on to the front foot on the social inclusion agenda.
> 
> The paper blasted the system for providing little more than a "crisis response" to homelessness and criticised mainstream services, such as health, education and justice, for washing their hands of the issue.
> 
> ...




Mr Rudd has very active with this agenda;

1.  He sleeps rough once a year to show his is still caring.

2.  He could call a conference.

3.  If all else fails he will give them one of his apologies.

Or he could cut out the bullsh*t and admit there is no solution.

Zedd says;


> -1 Better it's discussed than not.




Why? So that we can all sit in our cosy homes and go "tut tut".

Mr Burns says;


> The Govt is responsible for such matters.
> 
> Do you seriously expect individuals to take matters into their own hands ?




Not if a matter of putting your money where your mouth is.


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## MrBurns (4 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Mr Rudd already has the problem in hand. *In May 2008* he included the homeless in his his Social Inclusion Agenda. Problem solved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They could put New start back where it was before the cuts and weed out the bludgers.

Rudd was having his teeth whitened again and was taking crying lessons from Bob Hawke and so was too busy to discuss it.


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## Gringotts Bank (4 July 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Do you seriously expect individuals to take matters into their own hands ?




I don't expect anything of anyone; just giving an answer.  Julia asked for a solution to the problem of homelessness, and there's no more direct, obvious or immediately effective solution than the one I pointed out.  Homelessness could very easily be solved in one day if enough people wanted that to happen  If someone _really was concerned_, that's what he/she would do - share a spare bedroom.


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## Zedd (4 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Why? So that we can all sit in our cosy homes and go "tut tut".



Yes, because that's what all the ASF discussions turn into. Collective back-patting and head-knodding.



Gringotts Bank said:


> If someone _really was concerned_, that's what he/she would do - share a spare bedroom.



Has no one else had this discussion before w.r.t. your own home? Neither my housemates at the time, or my partner now felt secure and safe enough to try this, but we did talk seriously about it at the time.


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## Gringotts Bank (4 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> Has no one else had this discussion before w.r.t. your own home? Neither my housemates at the time, or my partner now felt secure and safe enough to try this, but we did talk seriously about it at the time.




I wouldn't want a stranger in my home.  If I wanted to do something to help, I'd go down to the city at night, get to know a few people personally over a period of time, then invite them to live in my investment property for a while (if I had one) or garage.


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## MrBurns (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I wouldn't want a stranger in my home.  If I wanted to do something to help, I'd go down to the city at night, get to know a few people personally over a period of time, then invite them to live in my investment property for a while (if I had one) or garage.




Why don't you just vote for someone who'll do something OR let's start our own party


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## Zedd (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I wouldn't want a stranger in my home.  If I wanted to do something to help, I'd go down to the city at night, get to know a few people personally over a period of time, then invite them to live in my investment property for a while (if I had one) or garage.




And that was pretty much the conclusion we reached too.


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## Julia (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I wouldn't want a stranger in my home.  If I wanted to do something to help, I'd go down to the city at night, get to know a few people personally over a period of time, then invite them to live in my investment property for a while (if I had one) or garage.



It's just remotely possible most Australians have neither an investment property nor a spare room, so your suggestion is less than helpful imo.

If one person invites one homeless person to use a spare room that's not even a blip on the horizon of the problem.

I'm frankly a bit fed up with your derision and air of superiority if someone feels concern about a national situation and wants to discuss it.  You seem to believe you are above such silliness.  I'm reminded of an instance some months ago when you, as you have done so often, told me I needed to 'give up compassion'.   I don't know where you acquire all your presumed wisdom from, GB, but I wish you wouldn't so presume to be patronising to your ASF co members including psychiatric diagnoses of people you have never met.

If you're not interested in a topic, don't read the thread, and don't make your usual critical contribution.

Even on the thread where so many people sent get well wishes to Sails, your contribution was a criticism that someone should reword their post, no good wishes as the thread suggested.

Some of us have contributed thousands of voluntary hours in time given to community agencies supporting homeless and mentally ill people.  I'm damned if you have the right to rubbish such genuine contributions.


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## DocK (4 July 2013)

I am reminded of a doco I watched on the ABC (Country Town Rescue) about the small town of Trundle in NSW, where empty and run down homes were offered for rent of $1 per week to city people looking for a tree change, on the basis that they'd do improvements to the homes in return for the practically free housing.  There were the usual problems one would expect in such an experiment, however I recall that at least some of the families settled into the little country town very well.  The main problem is finding meaningful employment - assuming that the homeless person actually wants it.  It seems wrong that a country with so much empty space cannot manage to house it poorer citizens.  There are so many small towns slowly dying as their population dwindles - there must be homes going to ruin for lack of occupants.  If only living in these areas were made somehow more attractive - it seems a bit of a catch 22 situation where there are no jobs due to a lack of population, and no increase in population as there are no jobs.  I grew up in a small country town in Qld and saw many city folk transferred in who thought they'd hate being away from the city and were more or less resigned to serving out their "country service" for a couple of years and then hotfooting it back to the bright lights asap.  Some never adapted, but the ones who were prepared to get involved in the community and give it a go invariably came to enjoy their time in the bush, with more than a few opting to stay.  It seems to me if there were a way of providing employment and an incentive for some of the people who struggle to pay rent in the cities to move out to regional areas then both they and the struggling towns would benefit.  I guess it's a matter also of services and infrastructure.  Maybe instead of giving every house in the city pink batts, and every school another hall, that money would have been better spent on facilities in rural areas - maybe "if you build it they will come"


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## sptrawler (4 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't expect anything of anyone; just giving an answer.  Julia asked for a solution to the problem of homelessness, and there's no more direct, obvious or immediately effective solution than the one I pointed out.  Homelessness could very easily be solved in one day if enough people wanted that to happen  If someone _really was concerned_, that's what he/she would do - share a spare bedroom.




+1
I agree completely, why hasn't Bob Brown in his public funded retirement, furthered his cause. Why doesn't he open a refuge for asylum seekers, rather than float around on greenpeace boats?
Why can't he welcome them into his home, for $50/wk like they were suggesting we do. Just another dick.
Don't they make you feel sick.


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## Calliope (5 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> Yes, because that's what all the ASF discussions turn into. Collective back-patting and head-knodding.




You got that right, except for the "head-knodding" bit. That sounds dangerous. It's all very well for do-gooders to keep raising issues of homelessness. It reminds me of Hawkes ridiculous slogan "that no child will live in poverty" blah, blah, blah.

All political parties rant on about homelessness, and nothing ever happens, and that's because there is no solution. The problem has always been left to charities to try to ameliorate the hardships, and the best we can hope for is dormitory overnight accommodation and giving them a Xmas dinner.

Problems like homelessness, Aboriginal housing and alcoholism will never be resolved because there are no votes in it.


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## Some Dude (5 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> Yes, because that's what all the ASF discussions turn into. Collective back-patting and head-knodding.




Not all of them


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2013)

Homeless is very often a symptom not _the _problem. To say just provide cheap housing and a decent job or a room in your house till someone gets back on their feet is in many of the cases, particularly the long term and young, completely missing the point and very uniformed.


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## Gringotts Bank (5 July 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Homeless is very often a symptom not _the _problem. To say just provide cheap housing and a decent job or a room in your house till someone gets back on their feet is in many of the cases, particularly the long term and young, completely missing the point and very uniformed.




No it's not.  Everyone knows people end up homeless because of mental problems.  What are you going to do - offer a freezing homeless person counselling?  Pfff.  I think a warm bed is going to help more.


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> No it's not.  Everyone knows people end up homeless because of mental problems.  What are you going to do - offer a freezing homeless person counselling?  Pfff.  I think a warm bed is going to help more.




Well I guess you would know. You are the expert in trying to be handed fish rather than learn how to fish...


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## McLovin (5 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I think a warm bed is going to help more.




Depends what you're actually trying to achieve. If giving someone shelter for a night is the aim then a warm bed will fix that. You've done nothing to address the root issue of why they are homeless. If someone has grown up in a house where sexual/physical/verbal abuse is the norm then offers of a warm bed are more likely to be met with suspicion. Ultimately, if someone has gotten to the point where they are living on the street in a country like Australia, it's a pipe dream if you think their situation is merely one of bad luck that will be fixed with a job and bed.


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## Gringotts Bank (5 July 2013)

McLovin said:


> Depends what you're actually trying to achieve. If giving someone shelter for a night is the aim then a warm bed will fix that. You've done nothing to address the root issue of why they are homeless. If someone has grown up in a house where sexual/physical/verbal abuse is the norm then offers of a warm bed are more likely to be met with suspicion. Ultimately, if someone has gotten to the point where they are living on the street in a country like Australia, it's a pipe dream if you think their situation is merely one of bad luck that will be fixed with a job and bed.




Same answer I gave TH.  Are you going to offer psychological help to someone hungry and freezing?  You think that will work?  That's naive.


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## McLovin (5 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Same answer I gave TH.  Are you going to offer psychological help to someone hungry and freezing?  You think that will work?  That's naive.




Did you read my first two sentences?



> Depends what you're actually trying to achieve. If giving someone shelter for a night is the aim then a warm bed will fix that.




Considering you're the resident Frasier Crane on ASF, I'm a bit surprised that you think the long term homeless can be "fixed" with a job and a bed. If only it were that easy.


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## Gringotts Bank (5 July 2013)

McLovin said:


> Did you read my first two sentences?
> 
> 
> 
> Considering you're the resident Frasier Crane on ASF, I'm a bit surprised that you think the long term homeless can be "fixed" with a job and a bed. If only it were that easy.




It's not always possible to treat the cause fully, so you treat the symptoms as best you can.  That's how all healthcare works.  Cure the problem if possible; provide relief when you can't.


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## Julia (5 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> All political parties rant on about homelessness, and nothing ever happens, and that's because there is no solution. The problem has always been left to charities to try to ameliorate the hardships, and the best we can hope for is dormitory overnight accommodation and giving them a Xmas dinner.
> 
> Problems like homelessness, Aboriginal housing and alcoholism will never be resolved because there are no votes in it.



Well, if everyone took your view, of course these problems will never be resolved.  You are an expert in sitting back and delivering derision, scorn and criticism on pretty much everything and everyone, with the recent exception of some young children who apparently recently charmed you with their doting mothers.

Despite the pfft attitude from you and the all knowing GB, a number of people have in fact made sensible and constructive comments, viz prawn, boofhead, sydboy, Mr Burns, knobby, DocK, McLovin and at the core of it all Trembling Hand with this:


Trembling Hand said:


> Homeless is very often a symptom not _the _problem. To say just provide cheap housing and a decent job or a room in your house till someone gets back on their feet is in many of the cases, particularly the long term and young, completely missing the point and very uniformed.




That's so true.  




Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't expect anything of anyone; just giving an answer.  Julia asked for a solution to the problem of homelessness, and there's no more direct, obvious or immediately effective solution than the one I pointed out.  Homelessness could very easily be solved in one day if enough people wanted that to happen  If someone _really was concerned_, that's what he/she would do - share a spare bedroom.



You also know it's completely unlikely.  Neither is it the responsibility of any individual to look after any other individual.  Much homelessness , as TH has suggested, is a result of eg mental illness or other underlying problems, and as such needs to be addressed at a national or at least state level.


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2013)

McLovin said:


> Considering you're the resident Frasier Crane on ASF,




LOL..... best post of the year


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## Gringotts Bank (5 July 2013)

Julia, let's say you get an unlikely answer to a question that has no easy answer...then what?  Are you going to run for PM?  No.  Nothing is going to happen from this thread and you know it.  You won't even take someone into your own home or investment property.  All compassion, no action.


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2013)

Troll much lately??


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## Some Dude (5 July 2013)

McLovin said:


> Considering you're the resident Frasier Crane on ASF...




He may only sound like Frasier, he may be...... Side Show Bob!!


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## Calliope (5 July 2013)

Julia said:


> Well, if everyone took your view, of course these problems will never be resolved.  You are an expert in sitting back and delivering derision, scorn and criticism on pretty much everything and everyone, with the recent exception of some young children who apparently recently charmed you with their doting mothers.




Sorry you feel the need to go out of your way to denigrate me Julia, but that's OK. I can take it. I know that despite your apparent bitterness you have a heart of gold.



> Some of us have contributed thousands of voluntary hours in time given to community agencies supporting homeless and mentally ill people.


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## Gringotts Bank (5 July 2013)

I've no problem with anyone helping anyone else, but helping itself is a fine art.  It's very easy for it to become an outward expression of self-pity.  Or it may be a way of trying to prove one's self worth, or even pave oneself a stairway to heaven.  Still, such "help" is better than none, so good on anyone who does volunteer work.  There ain't no easy answer though.  Life is a bitch for some people and I suspect that's just the way it will always be.


Sideshow Bob


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## boofis (5 July 2013)

On a slightly related but side note, when I was 'religious' I used to 'help' the 'needy' and really enjoyed it for the most part, but it was always interesting to see that in alot of cases as soon as people thought you were helping them cause they 'needed' help they'd get all proud and never wanted help anymore.
I guess noone likes to admit they're incapable, no matter how incapable they may be


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## Calliope (5 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I've no problem with anyone helping anyone else, but helping itself is a fine art.  It's very easy for it to become an outward expression of self-pity.  Or it may be a way of trying to prove one's self worth, or even pave oneself a stairway to heaven.  Still, such "help" is better than none, so good on anyone who does volunteer work.  There ain't no easy answer though.  Life is a bitch for some people and I suspect that's just the way it will always be




Homelessness on the streets of our major cities is a popular topic among the chattering classes and the cafe set. The most practical way, however, to help the homeless, is to dig deep and donate to those who really care. We don't have to wait for the Salvation Army's annual appeal. Do it now.

This won't get them off the streets, but it may give them a meal and the occasional warm bed.

http://www.salvationarmy.org.au/Who-We-Are/our-work/Homelessness/


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## prawn_86 (5 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> This won't get them off the streets, but it may give them a meal and the occasional warm bed.
> 
> http://www.salvationarmy.org.au/Who-We-Are/our-work/Homelessness/




Yep we recently gave about 20 - 30kg worth of clothes and blankets to St Vinnies and Salvos. Anything we hadn't worn for over a year, plus bedding we don't use etc. Surely someone will put it to better use than us


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## Julia (5 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Sorry you feel the need to go out of your way to denigrate me Julia, but that's OK. I can take it. I know that despite your apparent bitterness you have a heart of gold.



I think, to be honest, I probably am somewhat over-reacting at present.  I'm no Pollyanna, but I'm just feeling almost overwhelmed by the level of nastiness and egocentric self interest by so many, especially our politicians.

And yes, Calliope, I'm sure for every abusive mother, addressing her children as 'you little f****ers', there are several who are doing a great job with their kids.

If my previous comment to you was unreasonable, then I'm sorry.  I do note, however, that others have also been surprised at your kindly view of any section of humanity, so used have we become to your usual acerbic commentary.




Gringotts Bank said:


> I've no problem with anyone helping anyone else, but helping itself is a fine art.  It's very easy for it to become an outward expression of self-pity.  Or it may be a way of trying to prove one's self worth, or even pave oneself a stairway to heaven.



Oh god, you just can't help yourself, can you!  More of your pop psychology diagnoses.



> Still, such "help" is better than none, so good on anyone who does volunteer work.  There ain't no easy answer though.  Life is a bitch for some people and I suspect that's just the way it will always be.



That's probably true but it doesn't mean we should give up trying.  Just on the subject of aboriginal disadvantage, there have been great strides made up in Cape York under Noel Pearson's guidance.
Other pockets of real improvement also.

And, contrary to your conclusion that efforts to assist people in disadvantaged situations are ineffectual, there's plenty of evidence, even  just in small local ways, that it's possible to make a difference.  A mentoring program that I've been part of for nearly ten years works with kids who are at risk of running off the rails, usually due to their home environment.  Just one small example:  a young aboriginal girl, aged 8, family consisted of mother who prostituted herself to maintain her heroin habit, older sister who was emulating the mother, older brother already having done some jail time, is now doing really well at school after a few years of one on one support, just doing ordinary things like coming to dog training, looking for shells on the beach, and receiving help with her schoolwork.

Several teenage boys who were expelled because of their consistently disruptive behaviour now in decent jobs after participating for a couple of years in a program where older males worked with them.

Fund raising to set up refuges for women escaping domestic violence and persuading lawyers to assist them pro bono.

I could go on.  And no, it is definitely not selfless endeavour, in that every single time I make my meagre contribution to these and other efforts, I feel huge thankfulness for my own comfort and the fact that I had the capacity to turn abuse and other difficulties into something positive.




boofis said:


> On a slightly related but side note, when I was 'religious' I used to 'help' the 'needy' and really enjoyed it for the most part, but it was always interesting to see that in alot of cases as soon as people thought you were helping them cause they 'needed' help they'd get all proud and never wanted help anymore.
> I guess noone likes to admit they're incapable, no matter how incapable they may be



You're right in that we all need to have our personal sense of dignity respected, even when we're in the most humiliating of situations.

There was an interesting discussion on Radio National recently about 'inappropriate giving', i.e. people discharging what they perceived as their responsibility to help with whatever suited them best.  eg in the tsunami a few years ago, care agencies received container loads of thick winter clothing, thousands of teddy bears etc which are simply a burden for the care agencies to dispose of.


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## basilio (5 July 2013)

Excellent thread and worth trying tease out.  Certainly no easy answers and probably many good solutions that could address different aspects of the problem in different age groups and circumstances.

Its funny Julia but I think you managed to contradict yourself a bit in your last response. Gringott was suggesting that helping others may be a way of proving ones self worth and building a "stairway to heaven " (so to speak.) You wern't impressed with that comment but then I felt that your comments regarding your own extensive involvement in mentoring/supporting people in difficult situations did make you feel better and more thankful.

The fact is that supporting other people and doing worthwhile things does make us feel better.  The joy of giving, the feeling of doing something worthwhile are all absolutely real.

*Solving the problem.*

No easy answers but perhaps a number worth considering
1) *Some serious community work programs that provide good value activities for people and help top up or replace current welfare payments*.  Once upon a time there were many more lower skilled relatively simple jobs that were accessible by people with limited capacities. In my view most of these have gone and the expectations by employers of people have gone beyond the capacity of many people.
*But I believe  almost everyone needs to contribute to our society both for their own benefit and the community at large. * So if the private sector can't do this maybe government or community groups can fill the gap.

2) *Have a long hard look at how the supply of housing is met in the community.* Again, IMHO, the role of developers and bankers in  extracting the maximum possible profit from this industry is one of the drivers of housing inflation. How ?
  - Bankers and developers have  been at the forefront of encouraging property speculators and investors into the property market . The net result, I believe,  has been the fuelling of  housing inflation supported by be negative gearing and excessive speculation by ordinary investors who believe that investing in property can create their retirement savings. Obviously if enough people chase up the price of property then we will have property inflation - but  the price is now well ot of reach of normal income people. In my view that is not sustainable. (See  USA, UK, Canada, Spain < etc)

3) *Consider a return to the lending practices of yester decade.* When I was young....buying a home was pretty straightforward. You had to save a deposit of 10-20% for a least a year. When you wanted to buy a property the bank would offer you a loan that was equivalent to a repayment of 33% of your gross pay or 25%  of your net. You went into the housing market with a fixed amout to play with - just like the tens of thousands of other people in your  wage bracket.

If you earn't a bigger pay packet you could shop around for a more expensive home - but essentially you wern't able to buy mansions on McDonalds wages.

This all changed in the 80's when Banks and other financial instutations started offering 100 and 105% loans in the name of  free markets.  In my view the extra easy credit was a big stimulus to the housing inflation of the 80's  and then later 90's and 2000's

4) *Examine some of the new and old housing build options available.*
Co housing is interesting idea that can offer quality, cheaper housing options for people. If one inserts elements of community activity in the building of these projects (sweat equity) you can reduce the cost to participants even further as well as generating worthwhile work.

In my view for example there are probably many older homes on  larger blocks  on the outskirts of Melbourne that are near the end of their life. One could combine 2-3 sites for  either
    - A developer led 25 unit  set of apartments at full commercial costs...
    - A developer led  12 unit set of townhouses   OR
    - A community Co- housing development of 12- 15 units at perhaps 50-60% of the previous costs.

5) *Examination and development of more effective house sharing opportunities.*  There are many older people living in larger houses as single people.  Helping to set up systems that would enable safe sharing of these homes would save everyone money and hopefully improve social isolation.

http://www.communities.org.au/projects/ecohousing-heidelberg
http://www.housingregistrar.vic.gov...s/Eastern-Suburbs-Rental-Housing-Co-operative
http://www.thesenior.com.au/News/The-Senior-News/Sharing-way-to-live


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## Trembling Hand (5 July 2013)

basilio you think homelessness is a affordability issue?


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## boofhead (5 July 2013)

It does have an impact for some. Did you watch the Four Corners story? The lower the value of the property with reduced demand has a less inflationary effect on rental prices. For some it was about the cost. Others it is about mental/physical issues. Others it is about being able to look after themselves.


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## basilio (5 July 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> basilio you think homelessness is a affordability issue?




Boofhead offered a range of answers.  There isn't a single issue at play. Can't be. Family breakdown, loss of employment, illness, social problems, bad luck,  incapacity to look after oneself, older age and lack of resources. Ton of reasons for being unable to have decent accommodation.

My suggestions were only touching a part of the problems.


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## MrBurns (5 July 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Julia, let's say you get an unlikely answer to a question that has no easy answer...then what?  Are you going to run for PM?  No.  Nothing is going to happen from this thread and you know it.  You won't even take someone into your own home or investment property.  All compassion, no action.




Have you ?


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## Calliope (5 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I do note, however, that others have also been surprised at your kindly view of any section of humanity, so used have  *we *become to your usual acerbic commentary.




 More sarcasm. Who is we? Do you discuss me with other posters?


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## Julia (5 July 2013)

basilio said:


> Its funny Julia but I think you managed to contradict yourself a bit in your last response. Gringott was suggesting that helping others may be a way of proving ones self worth and building a "stairway to heaven " (so to speak.) You wern't impressed with that comment but then I felt that your comments regarding your own extensive involvement in mentoring/supporting people in difficult situations did make you feel better and more thankful.



You are misinterpreting what was said.  GB said 







> .... helping itself is a fine art. It's very easy for it to become an outward expression of self-pity. Or it may be a way of trying to prove one's self worth, or even pave oneself a stairway to heaven.




It's just rubbish to suggest that offering assistance to others is a manifestation of 'self pity'.  Neither is it necessarily a way of 'trying to prove one's self worth'.  To so suggest is, frankly, insulting and rude.
Yes, as I have said, being exposed to the reality of some people's great social disadvantage reminds me of how comparatively fortunate I am.  That doesn't mean I indulge in self pity or the need to establish my self worth.
And in terms of a 'stairway to heaven', that might mean something to you, given you are asking people to offer up prayers on another thread, but as someone with no religious interest whatsoever, it means nothing to me.

All up, three really silly suggestions.


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## Julia (5 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> More sarcasm. Who is we? Do you discuss me with other posters?



Oh dear, it wasn't sarcastic at all.  I just reflected that I was not the only one to express surprise at your affectionate comments about children.  

viz from Macquack 







> Well bugger me Calliope, I always thought of you as a cranky old bastard who would say that "children should be seen and not heard".




and from Knobby 







> I thought the same thing as Mac, pleasantly surprised with you Calliope.




So, sorry though I am to disabuse you of the egocentric notion that you're the subject of discussion amongst other posters, as you also suggested yesterday re myself, DocK and Sydboy, it simply is not the case.


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## Calliope (5 July 2013)

Julia said:


> So, sorry though I am to disabuse you of the egocentric notion that you're the subject of discussion amongst other posters, as you also suggested yesterday re myself, DocK and Sydboy, it simply is not the case.




*Amongst* other posters?  I didn't say that.  Egocentric? Another word to add to your list of pejorative terms for me.


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## johenmo (6 July 2013)

To determine a solution one first has to know the size & type of problem(s).  As TH stated, it's a symptom.  The site stats claim that each homeless person costs $27000 pa when on the streets & $43000 when being assisted (housing, benefits, health care etc).  Recipients of assistance want to retain some dignity (though some here would argue that if they living on the streets how can they expect to have dignity) & independence in their life.

The process to reduce this significantly & permanently requires a multipronged approach, working on immediate needs, underlying or root cause and preventive action.  The waste of funds by various organisations which overlap & duplicate services could be better spent.  The website stated that "...more than 1500 specialist homelessness services were to provide accommodation & support...".

A lot of "Homeless" don't want to live in what they perceive as institutionalised housing (I learned this from talking to them when helping on a street van).  Nor to be seen as charity cases.  It needs to be planned more like a military operation but carried out in a compassionate & understanding way.

If 1/200 are homeless then that's > 100,00 people - and to make a dent in this requires money & time.  How many of us are willing to give up one or the other or both on an ongoing basis?  


From Homelessness Australia website:


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## MrBurns (6 July 2013)

Not just talking about the homeless here, I'm really concerned about the single mothers with $40 to live on for 2 weeks, these people aren't rorting the system, the system has let them down badly, no you cant help everyone but the cases I saw on 4 Corners were the ones to start with , I'd gladly give time and money.....I give money at present, but I don't see how it helps the ones I'm talking about.

Donations just seem to disappear into the void somewhere.

- - - Updated - - -



> ORGANISATIONS FEATURED IN THE PROGRAM
> 
> Christ Mission Possible (NSW) is a Western Sydney based charity providing emergency relief and housing. cmp.org.au/
> 
> ...




The background and more info - 

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/07/01/3791178.htm


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## sptrawler (7 July 2013)

Question, if Australians on welfare can't afford to rent a home, how can the government place refugees in rental homes? If they're on welfare.


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## Julia (7 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Question, if Australians on welfare can't afford to rent a home, how can the government place refugees in rental homes? If they're on welfare.



1.  Asylum seekers receive considerable help from community agencies, such as the Salvos.

The government has effectively outsourced accommodation of asylum seekers to these community agencies.  As a result, the expense comes off the government's books and drains the resources of the charities who then lack the capacity to help Australians in need.

2.  I understand they combine their resources and pack several people into eg one small flat.

3.  Refugee advocates fall over themselves to provide furniture, food and other assistance.

4.  They get legal and, I think, dental and medical, services which many Australians on Newstart struggle to access.

There's probably more.  That's just off the top of my head now.


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## sptrawler (7 July 2013)

Julia said:


> 1.  Asylum seekers receive considerable help from community agencies, such as the Salvos.
> 
> The government has effectively outsourced accommodation of asylum seekers to these community agencies.  As a result, the expense comes off the government's books and drains the resources of the charities who then lack the capacity to help Australians in need.
> 
> ...




Well then it is obvious, keep attracting asylum seekers, then the government can pay to put them in rental properties.

Which in turn will keep the housing boom moving along. Great economic policy.


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## basilio (20 December 2019)

Saw an Australian Story program which has to be seen to be believed.

Put aside 30 minutes to watch it and perhaps consider your thoughts/response to the story of an abused child who becomes a violent alcoholic and then lives  in a  rain forest.
https://www.abc.net.au/austory/out-of-the-woods/11790238


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## sptrawler (10 November 2020)

IFocus said:


> You missed the point SP it wont get fixed such is the wilful negligence of the "losers" being accepted by US politics.



The point is the same problem happens here, there will always be beggars and homeless people, no matter how much money is thrown at them. There are still people sitting outside shops now in and around my area, that are begging, despite the Government increased handouts.
I know people who were on huge salaries that still went for a free feed, at the events for the needy, people are people, the real problem lies with those who make it a calling to change them.
Not all want to be changed, it has taken me a long time to understand that, it's called acceptance. You can offer people more and more, how they wish to spend that money is their choice even if it isn't the way you would spend it, the only other choice is to regulate how they spend it and they don't want that.


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## IFocus (10 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The point is the same problem happens here, there will always be beggars and homeless people, no matter how much money is thrown at them. There are still people sitting outside shops now in and around my area, that are begging, despite the Government increased handouts.
> I know people who were on huge salaries that still went for a free feed, at the events for the needy, people are people, the real problem lies with those who make it a calling to change them.
> Not all want to be changed, it has taken me a long time to understand that, it's called acceptance. You can offer people more and more, how they wish to spend that money is their choice even if it isn't the way you would spend it, the only other choice is to regulate how they spend it and they don't want that.





I don't accept that.

My daughter works with homeless (voluntarily) and has excellent story's of success in bring people back into main stream, no one deserves to be left living in gutters.

There were not always beggars, I came from a very poor background / area there were no beggars and as a kid street people in Perth were very rare unlike the US in 1987 where it was the norm, unbelievable, truly.

There was a time when the US would not allow 50,000 military veterans to be sleeping on park benches and it certainly would not be accepted here in Oz or are you saying different?


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## satanoperca (10 November 2020)

For some homelessness is a choice, but for the vast majority, it is not. 

Before people make assumptions about the homeless, talk to them, understand their situation and story. You will see a vastly different picture than what is perceived by the majority were homelessness is not an option.


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## sptrawler (10 November 2020)

IFocus said:


> I don't accept that.
> 
> My daughter works with homeless (voluntarily) and has excellent story's of success in bring people back into main stream, no one deserves to be left living in gutters.
> 
> ...



I never said any of that.
I said there is homeless now, there always will be homeless, how people spend their money is their business.
Some who don't wish to be in that situation can be helped and can turn it around, some don't wish it to be turned around, it is a lifestyle they chose.
The problem is there are others who want to force the ones to change, that don't wish to change, they usually don't isolate their crusade to one cause either.
As for the U.S I have never been there or lived there, so I wont comment on their situation, I try to only comment on what I have experience or knowledge of.
To think it can be eradicated completely, is just as flawed as thinking it can't be alleviated, as usual a center stance is the most practical expectation, but as is the way these days it has to be one way or the other.


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## macca (10 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I never said any of that.
> I said there is homeless now, there always will be homeless, how people spend their money is their business.
> Some who don't wish to be in that situation can be helped and can turn it around, some don't wish it to be turned around, it is a lifestyle they chose.
> The problem is there are others who want to force the ones to change, that don't wish to change, they usually don't isolate their crusade to one cause either.
> ...




Yes, there have been plenty of stories in the News about people begging in Sydney. Quite a few have been offered jobs but they ask about the wages and then say "I get more than that begging"

Figures of $500 per day begging, are quoted


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## SirRumpole (10 November 2020)

macca said:


> Yes, there have been plenty of stories in the News about people begging in Sydney. Quite a few have been offered jobs but they ask about the wages and then say "I get more than that begging"
> 
> Figures of $500 per day begging, are quoted




I wonder if they are on the dole as well.


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## sptrawler (10 November 2020)

macca said:


> Yes, there have been plenty of stories in the News about people begging in Sydney. Quite a few have been offered jobs but they ask about the wages and then say "I get more than that begging"
> 
> Figures of $500 per day begging, are quoted



I know tradesmen, who could earn serious money, that would rather be on the dole do a bit of begging and drugs. I don't agree with it, but try and convert them at your own risk.
It is the same with public housing, I personally think heaps of it should be built it makes a ton of sense, however don't expect 100% of people who get it to respect or look after it.
That is just the way it goes, I would rather see public housing done on a joint ownership basis where the Government has a caveat on the property and the tenant has skin in the game, then anyone who really wants a home can get one in a rent to buy format linked to their welfare.

Singapore has been running a joint ownership scheme for years apparently.
*Public housing*_ in *Singapore* is managed by the *Housing* and Development Board (HDB) under a 99-year lease. The majority of the residential *housing* developments in *Singapore* are publicly governed and developed, and home to approximately 78.7% of the resident population.
The result was: not only did people get *housing*, but it stimulated the economy to the point where *Singapore* has become one of the most *successful* countries in the world. Over 1 million units have been built, *housing* more than 80% of the population, and about 90% of these people own their _*home.*


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## satanoperca (10 November 2020)

macca said:


> Yes, there have been plenty of stories in the News about people begging in Sydney. Quite a few have been offered jobs but they ask about the wages and then say "I get more than that begging"
> 
> Figures of $500 per day begging, are quoted



Macca, you are simplifying a complex social issue, while you are correct, it is not the mainstream of homeless people, rather just opportunist.

A simple example was this morning.

Down at St Kilda for my morning coffee.

A young man approaches me, his attire was clean and presentable, he was softly spoken, he explained he was homeless and did I have any change. Well after covid, cash is not generally in my pocket. I poked into my pockets, all I had was 0.50$, which I handed over, he thank me and explained to me that was a good start to getting to the end of the day where he could buy some food. Again he was polite and respectful.

I wandered off, with my $4.50 coffee and some cigars, that I like to smoke.

Paused.

Thought to myself, if everyone was polite like that gentleman, society will be great, TURNED around, to find the young guy.

I approached him and asked if he was hungry, which he replied he was, I replied, I love the popcorn chicken from the Japanese place in the mall, would you like some?

He polity responded with he would like to accept my offer but he is a vegetarian, so cannot accept my offer.

My brain rattled.

Okay, surely we can find something, so off we went talking about how he become homeless, I found the subject quite interesting, we found a place with falafels, I like them, purchased some of them with some dip and a salad which we shared and discussed life on the park bench.

It was a lovely experience, he thanks me for the kind gesture, off I went to buy a bottle or 2 of wine for dinner.

My simple gesture or this gentlemen was worth more than the wine I purchased, engagement with others is fore filling.

NOT ALL PEOPLE are created EQUAL, Not all HOMELESS are the same. Take the time to understand before making assumptions.


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## sptrawler (10 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Macca, you are simplifying a complex social issue, while you are correct, it is not the mainstream of homeless people, rather just opportunist



On what are you basing that assumption, there is 20% unemployment where my place is and businesses can't get workers. 🙄
My daughter in law runs the office in a road repair company and they can't get labour, not even lollipop attendants. 😂
In W.A we are flying in workers from Vanuatu, because it is easier. 👍


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## satanoperca (10 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> On what are you basing that assumption, there is 20% unemployment where my place is and businesses can't get workers. 🙄
> My daughter in law runs the office in a road repair company and they can't get labour, not even lollipop attendants. 😂
> In W.A we are flying in workers from Vanuatu, because it is easier. 👍



That is just one component of homelessness. Again oversimplifying a complex issue.


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## SirRumpole (10 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Okay, surely we can find something, so off we went talking about how he become homeless,




So how did he become homeless may I ask ?


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## sptrawler (10 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> That is just one component of homelessness. Again oversimplifying a complex issue.



It's complex, that's for sure, 1.2million people on jobseeker and we are flying in laborers from Vanuatu, your telling me it's flucking complex. 😂 😂
There must be a lot of people on the public payroll, keeping it as complex as possible IMO. 👍


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## macca (10 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Macca, you are simplifying a complex social issue, while you are correct, it is not the mainstream of homeless people, rather just opportunist.
> 
> A simple example was this morning.
> 
> ...




Not really, just an example of why some beggars are "homeless" by choice, even when they actually live in shared accomm somewhere.

I have a close family member who works with Vietnam Vets, alcoholics, PTSD sufferers etc so I am very aware of the problems out there.

It is very annoying for those who would love more funding to see boutique homeless and professional beggars soaking up Govt funding when it should be used for those who are in dire need.

There is an old saying "beggars can't be choosers" I suspect the recipient of your good deed was in fact someone who wasn't really that hungry but I do applaud your very kind and generous act


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## sptrawler (10 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Macca, you are simplifying a complex social issue, while you are correct, it is not the mainstream of homeless people, rather just opportunist.
> 
> A simple example was this morning.
> 
> ...



I was out the front of Woolworths waiting for it to open, in Mandurah CBD the other week, there are often homeless there. 
A lady was standing near myself when one of the homeless walked over and asked her if she had any money she could give, the lady replied she had no change and used a credit card to which the homeless person said there is an ATM around the corner and when she moved away he abused her.

So yes we all have incidents that highlight there are differences, as in most walks of life, but for most able bodied people the only real hope of changing their circumstances is for them to find gainful employment.
Which goes back to my previous post, of how can we be importing laborers when we have 1.2 million on jobseeker, they can't all be just in an unfortunate point of life that stops them from working.


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