# Malaysia Airlines taken down again!



## Tyler Durden (18 July 2014)

> STORY SO FAR
> 
> • Malaysia Airlines plane has been shot down over eastern Ukraine by a surface-to-air missile
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...inerussia-border/story-fnizu68q-1226992889461

Unbelievable!


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## drsmith (18 July 2014)

Pro-Russian separatists ?



> Ukraine's Kyiv Post newspaper has posted what it says is a conversation between a separatist commander and Russian intelligence officer Vasili Geranin.
> 
> In the transcript, released by Ukraine's security service, the separatist, identified as Igor Bezler, says: "We have just shot down a plane. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast)."
> 
> The paper also has a transcript of what it says is a conversation between two separatists identified as "Major" and "Greek".




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...-phone-tap-separatists-responsibility/5606578

Whatever the truth, Malaysia Airlines is having a rough trot.


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## McLovin (18 July 2014)

My money is on the Russians (probably accidental) because I think it's highly unlikely that the separtists have acquired the equipment necessary to take down a plane at that altitude.


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## prawn_86 (18 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> My money is on the Russians (probably accidental) because I think it's highly unlikely that the separtists have acquired the equipment necessary to take down a plane at that altitude.




I dont have the link and it is unverified, but apparently a reporter who was in the rebel area recently said they had 6 or 7 tanks and a BUK missile system.


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## McLovin (18 July 2014)

prawn_86 said:


> I dont have the link and it is unverified, but apparently a reporter who was in the rebel area recently said they had 6 or 7 tanks and a BUK missile system.




Well they could certainly hit a plane with a BUK. If the Russians are dumb enough (and I don't think they are) to give a bunch of disorganised rebels a system with that sort of capability then they should be held accountable.

They'd been shooting at military aircraft for the last few months (Qantas was no longer flying over Ukraine) but I doubt anyone thought they had the firepower to get above 30,000ft.


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## drsmith (18 July 2014)

> The Buk missiles also reportedly have been spotted in Syria. Russia delivered the systems to Damascus in recent years.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/did-a-missile-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/5606156


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## McLovin (18 July 2014)

It's a bit different, doc, to ship a system off to the military of a sovereign state, with a clear CoC -- whatever you may think of the government -- than to ship it off to a few cowboys on the Ukrainian steppe with more vodka than sense. It's completely irresponsible, if it turns out they gave this system to the rebels.

It's really utterly disgraceful if that's what has happened.


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## Boggo (18 July 2014)

Airline management and associated under pressure bean counters are the greatest risk to safe aviation worldwide.
The risk to reward, ie. the $$$$ saved has once again proven to be a major factor.
A major factor is that everyone wants cheap flights and to achieve the best cents per seat per kilometer sometimes corners have to be cut, both safety wise and geographically (hand in hand in some cases).


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## Calliope (18 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> It's a bit different, doc, to ship a system off to the military of a sovereign state, with a clear CoC -- whatever you may think of the government -- than to ship it off to a few cowboys on the Ukrainian steppe with more vodka than sense. It's completely irresponsible, if it turns out they gave this system to the rebels.
> 
> It's really utterly disgraceful if that's what has happened.




You seem surprised that Russia would support a terrorist organisation whose sole aim is to regain control of sections of the Ukraine, to hand back to mother Russia, as happened in the Crimea. Sure they shot it down. Their reasoning is they thought it was a Ukrainian transport plane. Still terrorism in any language.


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## prawn_86 (18 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> It's really utterly disgraceful if that's what has happened.




In my books Putin has gone from billionaire oligarch who doesnt give a f@$k, to unstable war criminal. He is quoted as saying: 

"This tragedy would not have happened had there been peace in that land or at least had hostilities not been resumed in the south-east of Ukraine,

Certainly the state over whose territory this happened bears responsibility for this terrible tragedy."

The fact that he can say this when it is Russia that has caused the hostilities and lack of peace, and the suspected weapon is Russian made, and probably supplier shows that he is now as dangerous as the US media and officials have been portraying him


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## McLovin (18 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> You seem surprised that Russia would support a terrorist organisation whose sole aim is to regain control of sections of the Ukraine, to hand back to mother Russia, as happened in the Crimea. Sure they shot it down. Their reasoning is they thought it was a Ukrainian transport plane. Still terrorism in any language.




No, I'm surprised that the Russians would allow a piece of equipment like a BUK to be used by a non-state actor. I assumed they were smarter than that. I can't count the number of times since 2001 that I have flown over Afghanistan, and never once was there any concern of being hit by a SAM.


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## Julia (18 July 2014)

Why would the flight path take them over this area?  Does this go to Boggo's point about cost cutting?
If so, Malaysia Airlines has some questions to answer as well as Putin et al.


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## McLovin (18 July 2014)

Julia said:


> Why would the flight path take them over this area?  Does this go to Boggo's point about cost cutting?
> If so, Malaysia Airlines has some questions to answer as well as Putin et al.




It's a standard flight corridor. Ukraine had closed it below 32,000ft (FL320) but above it was business as usual. ICAO and IATA both said it was safe at high altitude, but some airlines had opted to avoid the area. Behind the Malaysian flight, there were Singapore and Qatar Airlines flights. All through the war in Afghanistan, the standard routing for Qantas flights enroute to/from Singapore/Bangkok to Europe went straight over Afghanistan.


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## Boggo (18 July 2014)

Why is it that Qantas avoid route now.
Remember the volcanic eruption, Australia's three main airlines, Qantas, Virgin and REX all left their aircraft parked costing them a fortune. Who kept flying ?????
That war is happening between the ground and 60,000 feet, the climb ability of the rockets they have been supplied, going through there is gambling.


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## McLovin (18 July 2014)

Boggo said:


> Why is it that Qantas avoid route now.
> Remember the volcanic eruption, Australia's three main airlines, Qantas, Virgin and REX all left their aircraft parked costing them a fortune. Who kept flying ?????
> That war is happening between the ground and 60,000 feet, the climb ability of the rockets they have been supplied, going through there is gambling.




Err except the war Australia was part of in Afghanistan didn't stop Qantas flying over Afghanistan. I doubt ICAO/IATA/EU/Eurocontrol were all in cahoots keeping the airspace open to maximise the profitability of airlines.


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## Boggo (18 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> Err except the war Australia was part of in Afghanistan didn't stop Qantas flying over Afghanistan. I doubt ICAO/IATA/EU/Eurocontrol were all in cahoots keeping the airspace open to maximise the profitability of airlines.




Maybe they learn faster than most [emoji53]


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## explod (18 July 2014)

Only in the last week the Euro zone had gone cold in supporting US sanctions against Russia.

So i ask a big question, "who really could have been behind this shocking event"?


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## waza1960 (18 July 2014)

Well plod I'm really worried your actually going to tell us who *you* think is behind this lol .


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## explod (18 July 2014)

waza1960 said:


> Well plod I'm really worried your actually going to tell us who *you* think is behind this lol .




There are no facts,, yet.

Did not stop Abbott's conclusion though.


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## Calliope (18 July 2014)

explod said:


> So i ask a big question, "who really could have been behind this shocking event"?




Now that's a hard one Plod. Perhaps it was the Russian supported separatist terrorists. After all they fired the missile. I don't think it was Abbott.


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## DeepState (18 July 2014)

explod said:


> Only in the last week the Euro zone had gone cold in supporting US sanctions against Russia.
> 
> So i ask a big question, "who really could have been behind this shocking event"?




Are you saying....it can't be...surely not....is it the same group that brought down the WTC so many years ago? Starting with C?


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## Smurf1976 (18 July 2014)

This is the sort of event that, since it involves innocent civilians and has provoked widespread outrage, could end up starting a much bigger war if it gets out of hand.

I'm no expert on military history, but I've been told more than once that if you look into the history of wars generally, then some of them did start over relatively trivial incidents far smaller than this one.

I really don't like the overall direction this is heading in. Not at all.


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## Julia (18 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> It's a standard flight corridor. Ukraine had closed it below 32,000ft (FL320) but above it was business as usual. ICAO and IATA both said it was safe at high altitude, but some airlines had opted to avoid the area. Behind the Malaysian flight, there were Singapore and Qatar Airlines flights. All through the war in Afghanistan, the standard routing for Qantas flights enroute to/from Singapore/Bangkok to Europe went straight over Afghanistan.





Analysis on this point by aviation expert.   
ABCTV Special this evening made the same points.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4049270.htm



> With the terrible loss of almost 300 people onboard flight MH-17, serious questions are being asked about management's decision to fly over Ukrainian airspace.
> 
> Senior aviation commentator Ben Sandilands says the majority Malaysian government-owned company is facing a massive challenge.
> 
> BEN SANDILANDS: Well the first thing that they will have to deal with is the fact that they were flying over a warzone and commonsense and modern warfare technology says you don't do that. That comes back to the management of Malaysian Airlines as to why they were there.


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## DeepState (18 July 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is the sort of event that, since it involves innocent civilians and has provoked widespread outrage, could end up starting a much bigger war if it gets out of hand.
> 
> I'm no expert on military history, but I've been told more than once that if you look into the history of wars generally, then some of them did start over relatively trivial incidents far smaller than this one.
> 
> I really don't like the overall direction this is heading in. Not at all.




What you say is true when there is tension just looking for an excuse to release itself.  WW1, sleepwalked into a catastrophe with something fairly irrelevant because it offered context.  Other types of wars are identity/ethnicity/religion related, and they are pretty much the worst kinds.  They are hard to stop and go all out.  This is what the Correlates of War shows.  

Something that I look at on matters of this type is that it has to get very personal to enter wars where you are not a neighbor.  The effort is (more) massive.  World Trade Centre and efforts to assassinate Bush I were strong contexts to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.  The effort to fabricate a reason to invade Iraq was astounding...well, not really.  The important thing here is that the US was insulted and they had the means to punch back...and did.

In this case, the country with the most losses was Netherlands.  Second was Malaysia. Third was Australia.

Netherlands is actually far away to undertake a military offensive.  Projection at distance is actually amazingly difficult. It is not part of NATO and cannot call an Article 5 violation.  Netherlands is not going to attack Russian or its agents in Eastern Ukraine.

Malaysia hardly has any effective military assets.  It could not launch anything that looks like an effective offensive maneuver.  It is not a strong ally of the US and cannot transmit the anger to them so as to ask them to spill blood on their behalf.

In this case, taking everything you have said as solid, I don't believe this will escalate beyond more indignation.  There is no appetite for war.  The most aggrieved have limited ability to counterpunch militarily.  They have even less ability to call on allies to magnify their force.

If they had hit a plane loaded full of nationals from Nato alliance countries instead, this assessment would be very different.


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## Calliope (18 July 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is the sort of event that, since it involves innocent civilians and has provoked widespread outrage, could end up starting a much bigger war if it gets out of hand.
> 
> I'm no expert on military history, but I've been told more than once that if you look into the history of wars generally, then some of them did start over relatively trivial incidents far smaller than this one.
> 
> I really don't like the overall direction this is heading in. Not at all.




Nonsense. There will be no war over this. There is no appetite for war in Europe. The infiltration of Islamism is a bigger threat than Russian imperialism, but European countries don't even have the backbone to stand up against this. Vladimir Putin has a free hand to do whatever he likes. He knows that NATO is a cream puff.


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## wayneL (18 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Nonsense. There will be no war over this. There is no appetite for war in Europe. The infiltration of Islamism is a bigger threat than Russian imperialism, but European countries don't even have the backbone to stand up against this. Vladimir Putin has a free hand to do whatever he likes. He knows that NATO is a cream puff.




Perhaps a nuclear armed ICBM topped with cream


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

Julia said:


> Analysis on this point by aviation expert.
> ABCTV Special this evening made the same points.
> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4049270.htm




That's just common sense after the fact. I'm sure there will be plenty of "experts" saying the same sort of thing in the next few weeks. The fact is though that this route was considered safe by ICAO. The only warning that had been issued by the FAA and ICAO was to do with multiple countries offering air traffic control services over the same piece of airspace over Crimea.



			
				DeepState said:
			
		

> Netherlands is actually far away to undertake a military offensive. Projection at distance is actually amazingly difficult. It is not part of NATO and cannot call an Article 5 violation. Netherlands is not going to attack Russian or its agents in Eastern Ukraine.




When did they drop out of NATO? I think war is a very remote possibility. It was an accident, and one that the Russians would have very much not wanted. It gives the West some moral authority to interfere in what Russia sees as a regional dispute in its sphere of influence. I agree with you about the projection of power, the only country that can do it these days is the US.


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## Boggo (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> ...The fact is though that this route was considered safe by ICAO. The only warning that had been issued by the FAA and ICAO was to do with multiple countries offering air traffic control services over the same piece of airspace over Crimea.




I think you may misunderstand the role of ICAO in situations such as war zones etc.
A NOTAM had been issued regarding the risks associated with using this airspace.


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

Boggo said:


> I think you may misunderstand the role of ICAO in situations such as war zones etc.
> A NOTAM had been issued regarding the risks associated with using this airspace.




The NOTAM was issued for the area over Crimea and was related to multiple parties offering ATC services.

That was the same warning the FAA gave for the same area.


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

Here's an interesting chart of who and wasn't flying over the Ukraine...


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## DeepState (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> When did they drop out of NATO?




At approximately 4am Friday during a REM sleep cycle.

D'oh.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Nonsense. There will be no war over this. There is no appetite for war in Europe. The infiltration of Islamism is a bigger threat than Russian imperialism, but European countries don't even have the backbone to stand up against this. Vladimir Putin has a free hand to do whatever he likes. He knows that NATO is a cream puff.




There were virtually no recriminations when a Korean 747 was shot down by a Soviet fighter. There will be a lot of words but it won't go anywhere. If it was a US airline, or there were US passengers, things may be different.


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## DB008 (19 July 2014)

explod said:


> There are no facts,, yet.
> 
> Did not stop Abbott's conclusion though.




What about the intercepted phone calls where a Russian rebel calls a Russian intel person confirming they had shot a plane down?


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## Calliope (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> It was an accident, and one that the Russians would have very much not wanted. .




It was no accident. It was done in a deliberate act of terrorism against their own country, they just hit the wrong target. Of course Russia woud have preferred it to have been a Ukraine plane that they destroyed. Russia supplies terrorists with arms but claims no responsibility for how they use them.

It's a bit like giving your kid an air rifle and he shot the neighbour's dog, and you saying "it was an accident...he meant to shoot our dog".


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> It was no accident. It was done in a deliberate act of terrorism against their own country, they just hit the wrong target. Of course Russia woud have preferred it to have been a Ukraine plane that they destroyed. Russia supplies terrorists with arms but claims no responsibility for how they use them.
> 
> It's a bit like giving your kid an air rifle and he shot the neighbour's dog, and you saying "it was an accident...he meant to shoot our dog".




Whatever you want to call their motives, it was accident.


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## Calliope (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> Whatever you want to call their motives, it was accident.




Pull the other leg. It was deliberate. If some terrorist can "accidently" pull the trigger on a Russian BUK missile system, then God help us if Russia ever gives them nuclear warheads for their missile systems.

It is strange how apologists for the perpetrators always claim collateral damage is accidental.


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Pull the other leg. It was deliberate. If some terrorist can "accidently" pull the trigger on a Russian BUK missile system, then God help us if Russia ever gives them nuclear warheads for their missile systems.
> 
> It is strange how apologists for the perpetrators always claim collateral damage is accidental.




Ahh...off you go sticking a label on anyone who disagrees with you. I was wondering how long that would take.

It's funny how simpletons see the world as black and white.


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## Calliope (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> Ahh...off you go sticking a label on anyone who disagrees with you. I was wondering how long that would take.
> 
> It's funny how simpletons see the world as black and white.




Obviously you can't justify your argument, so you resort to sticking a label of simpleton on me.  All I asked was for you to explain how a guy could accidently pull a trigger on a BUK guided missile system and accidently hit a plane flying above 30000 feet. Obviously you can't, so you resort to playing the man.


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Obviously you can't justify your argument, so you resort to sticking a label of simpleton on me.  All I asked was for you to explain how a guy could accidently pull a trigger on a BUK guided missile system and accidently hit a plane flying above 30000 feet. Obviously you can't, so you resort to playing the man.




Actually you didn't ask. You made a statement and the followed it up by calling me an apologist.

In any event, I certainly never said they accidentally pulled the trigger. But you knew that, it's just your usual game of obfuscation. Carry on.


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## Calliope (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> Actually you didn't ask. You made a statement and the followed it up by calling me an apologist.




Okay. We'll call it quits. You call it an "accident" and I'll call it an "atrocity".  Time will tell.


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## Joe Blow (19 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> All I asked was for you to explain how a guy could accidently pull a trigger on a BUK guided missile system and accidently hit a plane flying above 30000 feet.




You asked nothing. You labelled everyone who disagreed with you as "an apologist". You're not interested in a reasonable discussion, you are interested in trolling, as usual.



McLovin said:


> Actually you didn't ask. You made a statement and the followed it up by calling me an apologist.




Yes, that's exactly what he did.



Calliope said:


> Okay. We'll call it quits. You call it an "accident" and I'll call it an "atrocity".  Time will tell.




No, we won't call it quits. You have been warned again and again about your relentless name calling, deliberate provocation, personal attacks and trolling. In spite of all the warnings you still persist in disrupting every single thread you participate in.

This two week holiday is to give you some time to reflect on your posting style. If you are not capable of conducting yourself like a reasonable person when debating others then you are not welcome back. Your decision, but if you come back and start trolling again, the consequences will be dire indeed.


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## So_Cynical (19 July 2014)

I'm outraged, but have to half agree with the Troll that nothing will come of it, The Russians have a security council veto and are to big, Europe relies on Russian Gas for industry, power and heating and they know that the Russians are super sensitive about Ukraine and the other eastern buffer country's, in fact all the old core republics that have independence but still act as allies and are geopolitical buffers.

Russia is pretty much an organized well financed rouge state..Syria, Ukraine and Georgia, its all hands off.

----------

Look at the Israelis, killed 200 Palestinians just this week and its all hands off, they are the US proxy force in the Mid East so no one does nothing about them...a Geopolitical no go.


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## Value Collector (19 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I'm outraged, but have to half agree with the Troll that nothing will come of it, The Russians have a security council veto and are to big, Europe relies on Russian Gas for industry, power and heating and they know that the Russians are super sensitive about Ukraine and the other eastern buffer country's, in fact all the old core republics that have independence but still act as allies and are geopolitical buffers.
> 
> Russia is pretty much an organized well financed rouge state..Syria, Ukraine and Georgia, its all hands off.
> 
> ...




I am outraged also, but any charges would have to come down to intent, it is a war zone, and if the plane was genuinely mistaken for a military target, it is just an unfortunate accident. The USA have killed more than 298 innocent people in drone attacks where the targets were mis identified. Its a sad fact of war.

To get these guys on war crimes we would have to prove that they knew it was a civilian aircraft.


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## explod (19 July 2014)

DB008 said:


> What about the intercepted phone calls where a Russian rebel calls a Russian intel person confirming they had shot a plane down?





Was thinking about just that point after posting.  That conversation may have been created. Seemed to be too neat.  A bit like some of the Ukraine demos that appeared as hollywood sets.

There will be more than meets the eye in all this when the dust settles In My HUMBLE view.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2014)

Value Collector said:


> I am outraged also, but any charges would have to come down to intent, it is a war zone, and if the plane was genuinely mistaken for a military target, it is just an unfortunate accident. The USA have killed more than 298 innocent people in drone attacks where the targets were mis identified. Its a sad fact of war.
> 
> To get these guys on war crimes we would have to prove that they knew it was a civilian aircraft.




It's only a war if the fighting is between nations and there is a justifiable reason for conflict. The participants must also agree to conditions involving treatment of prisoners and conditions of surrender. Acts undertaken by other than such parties are not covered under international laws of war, and so could be considered criminal acts. That's basically why Al Quaeda captives were not considered POWS, and neither can Ukrainian separatists be considered lawful combatants.

That doesn't absolve airlines from avoiding unnecessary risks to their passengers.


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> It's only a war if the fighting is between nations and there is a justifiable reason for conflict.




That's an odd interpretation of war. So basically, there's no such thing as a civil war? And who decides if a war is justifiable? The separatists obviously believe they have a legitimate cause to be fighting for. I won't pretend to understand the hundreds of years of ethnic division in any part of Europe that seems to see them going to war on a fairly regular basis, but that does seem to be the driving force behind most of their wars.

ETA: Here's the definition of war...



> war
> wɔː
> noun
> 1.
> a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> That's an odd interpretation of war. So basically, there's no such thing as a civil war? And who decides if a war is justifiable? The separatists obviously believe they have a legitimate cause to be fighting for. I won't pretend to understand the hundreds of years of ethnic division in any part of Europe that seems to see them going to war on a fairly regular basis, but that does seem to be the driving force behind most of their wars.
> 
> ETA: Here's the definition of war...




Who decides if a war is justifiable ? Depends on who wins. The leaders in the Bosnian civil war are now on trial.


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Who decides if a war is justifiable ? Depends on who wins. The leaders in the Bosnian civil war are now on trial.




And the war Croatia fought to break away from Serb controlled Yugoslavia is called the Croatian war of independence.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> And the war Croatia fought to break away from Serb controlled Yugoslavia is called the Croatian war of independence.




You seem to think that any renegade is justified in calling a war for whatever reasons they think appropriate. There are internationally approved rules of engagement that cover conflict. If the Ukrainian seperatists are defeated and captured, should they be treated as POW's or criminals in your opinion ?


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> You seem to think that any renegade is justified in calling a war for whatever reasons they think appropriate. There are internationally approved rules of engagement that cover conflict.




They haven't declared war, they've declared independence. It's a little bit more complex than a few renegades calling for war. For one thing, that part of the Ukraine has historically been part of Russia and that part of the world has had land borders shifting for centuries and this time is no different. It's a mix of ethnic rivalry, historical payback and outright nationalism. You can't reduce it to goodies v baddies. That apparently makes me an apologist to some, I'd say it makes me a realist.

There's no such thing as "internationally approved rules of engagement". If you end up in a state of war, it doesn't really matter how you got there.



			
				SirRumpole said:
			
		

> If the Ukrainian seperatists are defeated and captured, should they be treated as POW's or criminals in your opinion ?




POWs are completely different to criminals. A POW has not committed a crime. Similarly, you can't have POW's once a state of war has ceased to exist. If they are defeated, then I have no doubt they'll be charged with treason.

I don't think I'd want to be a prisoner of any type in the Ukraine or Russia.


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## Value Collector (19 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> They haven't declared war, they've declared independence. It's a little bit more complex than a few renegades calling for war. For one thing, that part of the Ukraine has historically been part of Russia and that part of the world has had land borders shifting for centuries and this time is no different. It's a mix of ethnic rivalry, historical payback and outright nationalism. You can't reduce it to goodies v baddies. That apparently makes me an apologist to some, I'd say it makes me a realist.
> 
> There's no such thing as "internationally approved rules of engagement". If you end up in a state of war, it doesn't really matter how you got there.
> 
> ...




+1,  there are big differences between Al-Qaeda and those involved in the Ukraine conflict.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2014)

Value Collector said:


> +1,  there are big differences between Al-Qaeda and those involved in the Ukraine conflict.




Really ? Both are fighting against what they see as oppression. Both don't believe in negotiation, only violence. It boils down to the same thing. I suppose the seperatists have at least confined their battles to one country but in other ways they have similar tactics.


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## McLovin (19 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Really ? Both are fighting against what they see as oppression. Both don't believe in negotiation, only violence. It boils down to the same thing. I suppose the seperatists have at least confined their battles to one country but in other ways they have similar tactics.




I don't believe they have claimed they are oppressed, and what do you say to the pro-government supporters who held violent protests in Kiev until the elected president was forced to resign? The whole thing started because the Ukrainian government wanted to move closer to NATO and the EU. Eastern Ukraine wants to remain close to Russia. The map of the last election results tells paints the story pretty well. The red is the pro-West candidate, the blue the pro-Russian. The pro-Russian candidate won but was overthrown, which is where this all started.


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## explod (19 July 2014)

You have it there McLovin. Current Ukraine government is not democratically legitimate.

But with good ole us of a just back the side that is best for the petrodollar.

Russia are taking the trade cards away, and I again emphasise that that is going to mean big trouble.

Now back to topic, the culprites could be slippery and have very smokey screens.  IMHO


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## So_Cynical (19 July 2014)

~
And this is pretty much how this will end up, the Russians need a buffer and the Genuine Ukrainians need a state...they should just fast forward to the end game in an orderly manner...but we all know that is not how politics when mixed with reality work/s.


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## Value Collector (20 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Really ? Both are fighting against what they see as oppression. Both don't believe in negotiation, only violence. It boils down to the same thing. I suppose the seperatists have at least confined their battles to one country but in other ways they have similar tactics.




Al-quaeda are a terrorist organisation, which is a lot different to separatist rebels fighting for independence. Al-quaeda targeted civilians on purpose, by the looks of it, the rebels were targeting military targets, and this disaster was an accident. 

Its not much different than the USA drone striking a bus of civilians in Iraq or an Aussie soldier throwing a grenade into the wrong house into a room of afgan women and children. War is terrible, sickening accidents happen.


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## bellenuit (20 July 2014)

Hot off the press. Graphic photo of The Greens and Socialist Left burning Russian flags during violent protests near the Russian Embassy in Canberra. Be warned, you may find the image disturbing and confronting. Lee Rhiannon can be clearly seen confronting the police barricade demonstrating her willingness to put her support of the victims ahead of her own safety.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Hot off the press. Graphic photo of The Greens and Socialist Left burning Russian flags during violent protests near the Russian Embassy in Canberra. Be warned, you may find the image disturbing and confronting. Lee Rhiannon can be clearly seen confronting the police barricade demonstrating her willingness to put her support of the victims ahead of her own safety.




How very cheap to bring politics into such a tragedy.


----------



## prawn_86 (20 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> How very cheap to bring politics into such a tragedy.




I agree.

Any further off topic political posts will be removed. This is not a thread to discuss Australian politics


----------



## bellenuit (20 July 2014)

prawn_86 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Any further off topic political posts will be removed. This is not a thread to discuss Australian politics




There are two aspects to the tragedy; the political aspect and the human aspect.

The thread so far has been predominantly political and I don't recall any post on the thread expressing condolences to the victims and their families, though I may have missed one or two. The topics discussed have centred around who was responsible and comparisons have been made with other conflicts around the world. Although the event that occurred was indeed a tragedy, it is apparent from pretty much all of the facts gleaned to date that even though it may have been an unintended act of the Russian separatists, it was only unintended in that they mistook their target. The ultimate reason they were in a position to do such an act was because of deliberate actions of the Russian government in supporting and supplying the separatists.



> How very cheap to bring politics into such a tragedy




What rank hypocrisy. Every comment you, Sir Rumpole, have made on this thread has been politically related. 

My post was not in any way intended to make light of the tragedy, but to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the left in this country who have been pretty much mute in their condemnation of Russia.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> What rank hypocrisy. Every comment you, Sir Rumpole, have made on this thread has been politically related.




Any comment I made was related to the politics of the area in which this incident occurred. It has nothing whatever to do with Australian politics. My comments were relevant to the thread, yours was not.


----------



## drsmith (20 July 2014)

The Greens have come out in support of the position adopted by our major parties though perhaps with a little less than their usual passion.



> Following Shorten, Greens deputy leader Adam Bandt declared: “As the member for Melbourne and on behalf of the Greens, I want to associate myself with the remarks of the prime minister and the leader of the Opposition.”




http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/19/aust-j19.html



> Greens leader Christine Milne said Australia should take a stand through the G20.
> 
> "I would certainly back a move to say no, he (Putin) shouldn't be coming to the G20," she told Sky News.




https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/24504178/pm-urges-russian-change-of-heart-on-mh17/

Their official media release on this incident is as follows,

http://greensmps.org.au/content/med...h17-tragedy-has-global-ramifications-hiv-aids


----------



## dutchie (20 July 2014)

There will probably never be proof but it is obvious to me that the responsibility of this barbaric act lies with one man - Putin.

My sympathy and condolences go to the Australian, Dutch, Malaysian and other nationalities families who have lost loved ones.

Rest in peace all those aboard MH17.


----------



## So_Cynical (20 July 2014)

Official passenger and crew Manifest released yesterday by MAS

Nationality: Total
Netherlands: 193 (including 1 dual Netherlands/USA citizen)
Malaysia: 43 (including 15 crew & 2 infants)
Australia: 27
Indonesia: 12 (including 1 infant)
United Kingdom: 10 (including 1 dual UK/S. Africa citizen)
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1
Total: 298

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/con...s/mas/PDF/MH17/MH17 PAX AND CREW MANIFEST.pdf

RIP.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Official passenger and crew Manifest released yesterday by MAS
> 
> Nationality: Total
> Netherlands: 193 (including 1 dual Netherlands/USA citizen)
> ...




On Insiders this morning they quoted 36 Australians on board.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> On Insiders this morning they quoted 36 Australians on board.






> An international outpouring of grief continues after the shooting down of flight MH17 killed 298 people, including 28 Australians and eight permanent Australian residents.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...ims-of-malaysia-airline-mh17-disaster/5609702


----------



## DB008 (20 July 2014)

Spoke to a ex-Navy Radar specialist today.

Short answer - whoever fired that SAM, knew it was a commercial plane. No questions.

I'd bet that they are also trying to tamper with the black boxes which they have located.

Russia has blood on their hands.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2014)

DB008 said:


> Spoke to a ex-Navy Radar specialist today.
> 
> Short answer - whoever fired that SAM, knew it was a commercial plane. No questions.
> 
> ...




If they knew it was a commercial flight then shooting it down was a very stupid thing to do.

The eyes of the world are now on them. Russia and the rebels are marked. The result for them can only be destructive.


----------



## basilio (20 July 2014)

*When would we like the next world war to start ?*

The shooting down of the Malaysian airline is a disaster and a tragedy. But for the life of me I just cannot see how the Russians or even the separatists really wanted to shoot down a civilian airliner and kill 300 people.  It just seems too stupid and politically wrong for anyone.

So where do we all go from here ?  Do we go for blood and push political pressure to the stage that some sot of larger armed conflict  emerges ?  It's worth remembering that many conflicts have arisen as rhetoric spins out of control and local commanders end up with firefights that escalate into larger conflicts.

I won't presume to say what should happen next but for everyones sake I think the rhetoric should be cooled down.

By the way does anyone believe  this is the first time such an incident has occurred ? There is plenty of history to think about. It includes an Iranian airliner shot down by the US as well as other incidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/history-of-airlines-shot-down-malaysia-airlines-mh17

http://www.theguardian.com/world/dag-hammarskjold

In no way do I understate the tragedy of the loss of life.  I just don't think that going on a path that could risk  even more bloodshed, *particularly if it could spiral out of control,* is a sensible response.

___________________________________________________________________

PS I appreciate the reasonably civil and constructive tone of the discussion on this thread. Makes it more interesting/worthwhile to participate !!

Cheers


----------



## Value Collector (20 July 2014)

basilio said:


> *When would we like the next world war to start ?*
> 
> The shooting down of the Malaysian airline is a disaster and a tragedy. But for the life of me I just cannot see how the Russians or even the separatists really wanted to shoot down a civilian airliner and kill 300 people.  It just seems too stupid and politically wrong for anyone.
> 
> ...




I hear you, this needs to be a wake up call for all the leaders involved, not a call to arms


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 July 2014)

basilio said:


> In no way do I understate the tragedy of the loss of life.  I just don't think that going on a path that could risk  even more bloodshed, *particularly if it could spiral out of control,* is a sensible response.



+1

This whole thing also has me wondering if this could be what happened to the other Malaysian Airlines plane that went missing a few months ago? It's a long shot to assume that I know, but nobody's found it yet or even come up with any real proof as to what happened to it so it would seem at least a possibility.


----------



## DB008 (20 July 2014)

Outcome = Nothing will happen.

Diplomacy. Shaking of heads. Strong words. UN Sanctions. Blah Blah Blah.



> In 2007, 38.7% of the European Union's natural gas total imports and 24.3% of consumed natural gas originated from Russia.[1][3] As of 2009, Russian natural gas was delivered to Europe through 12 pipelines, of which three were direct pipelines (to Finland, Estonia and Latvia), four through Belarus (to Lithuania and Poland) and five through Ukraine (to Slovakia, Romania, Hungary and Poland).[3] In 2011, an additional pipeline, Nord Stream (directly to Germany through the Baltic Sea), opened.[4]
> 
> The largest importers of Russian gas in the European Union are Germany and Italy, accounting together for almost half of the EU gas imports from Russia. Other larger Russian gas importers (over 5 billion cubic meter per year) in the European Union are France, Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, Austria and Slovakia.[5][6] The largest non-EU importers of Russian natural gas are Ukraine, Turkey and Belarus.[5]
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_sector







*SSU, radio interception of conversations between terrorists, "Boeing-777" plane crash*





*Tweetbot Catches Russian Government Editing Flight MH17 Wikipedia Info*









> Remember @CongressEdits, the tweetbot that alerts whenever a Wikipedia article is edited from a government IP address? There’s a Russian version now, and it just uncovered some pretty drastic edits to a Wikipedia article that mentions Flight MH17, originating from a Russian government IP address.
> 
> As The Telegraph reports, @RuGovEdits tweeted that a computer user from within the All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (VHTRK) edited the Russian-language version of the Wikipedia entry about the Malaysian Airlines passenger jet shot down over Ukraine yesterday.
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (20 July 2014)

Good comments, basilio.  Completely agree.  

What do others think of Mr Abbott's comments so far?  Has he struck the right note?  A little too aggressive when we still don't completely understand what happened?


----------



## McLovin (20 July 2014)

basilio said:


> *When would we like the next world war to start ?*




I think the allies could probably do a bit of targeted bombing without causing WW3. I'm sure the Ukrainians would allow NATO to use its airbases. It would be a pretty high risk strategy to be operating that close to the Russian border. However, they won't for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the US is only really tangentially involved in this, there was one US citizen on board a Malaysian aircraft travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, and there's enough disdain in the US at the moment about being the world's policeman. Secondly, the Europeans have cornered themselves into being dependent on Russian gas. It's not politically palatable to have 80 million Germans freezing this winter when Russia shuts off the gas. That's why they've been so pathetic in tightening sanctions. Hopefully, this crime gives them a kick up the backside.

Longer term, Europe needs to consider how wise it is to hitch your energy requirements to a country run by thugs that seems to be edging closer and closer to being an outright rogue state.


----------



## DeepState (20 July 2014)

How does NATO launch an attack without Germany?


----------



## McLovin (20 July 2014)

DeepState said:


> How does NATO launch an attack without Germany?
> 
> View attachment 58756




France and Italy??...wait, I'm sure there's a joke in there.

In all seriousness, I don't think any air strike is at all likely for the reasons I already gave, I just think it is possible without WW3 starting.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2014)

Julia said:


> Good comments, basilio.  Completely agree.
> 
> What do others think of Mr Abbott's comments so far?  Has he struck the right note?  A little too aggressive when we still don't completely understand what happened?




He's just stating the obvious, no more no less. I would expect any other PM to do the same in those circumstances.

Strange that he has put all the blame on Russia without mentioning that Malaysian airlines was flying over a known trouble spot.


----------



## dutchie (21 July 2014)

From

http://pickeringpost.com/

Pickering captures it succinctly.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> Longer term, Europe needs to consider how wise it is to hitch your energy requirements to a country run by thugs that seems to be edging closer and closer to being an outright rogue state.




It's like any power imbalance. Personal relationships gone bad, dodgy bosses, drug dealers, energy suppliers, whatever. Whoever has the power knows full well that the other party can't afford the relationship to end, and in that situation you're completely at their mercy over pretty much everything. It's my way or the highway, and you can't afford the highway.


----------



## explod (22 July 2014)

Maybe keeping the west out of the site is some emerging evidence that the Ukraine government may have downed this plane and would have had an interest in disturbing evidence. Early days still IMV.

This mornings Zero Hedge.


----------



## McLovin (22 July 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's like any power imbalance. Personal relationships gone bad, dodgy bosses, drug dealers, energy suppliers, whatever. Whoever has the power knows full well that the other party can't afford the relationship to end, and in that situation you're completely at their mercy over pretty much everything. It's my way or the highway, and you can't afford the highway.




Sections of the US right have been pretty vocal in the idea of shipping cheap gas to Europe so that they are no longer beholden to Russia. It's breathtaking how much gas Russia has. Back in the days of the USSR they actually used to flare it as it was an unwanted by product of oil drilling.



			
				explod said:
			
		

> Maybe keeping the west out of the site is some emerging evidence that the Ukraine government may have downed this plane and would have had an interest in disturbing evidence. Early days still IMV.




Except the Ukrainian government doesn't control the site or that part of the Ukraine. They've been trying to send in accident investigators too.


----------



## explod (22 July 2014)

In this comment I thought it would be obvious that the Ukraine Govt' is part of the western alliance, who inturn it is inferred caused the missile hit.


----------



## noco (22 July 2014)

explod said:


> Maybe keeping the west out of the site is some emerging evidence that the Ukraine government may have downed this plane and would have had an interest in disturbing evidence. Early days still IMV.
> 
> This mornings Zero Hedge.




The Russians are trying to shift the blame on the Ukrainian Government.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...shot-down-russia/story-fniztvng-1226997531113


----------



## explod (22 July 2014)

noco said:


> The Russians are trying to shift the blame on the Ukrainian Government.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...shot-down-russia/story-fniztvng-1226997531113




This is still very much a MSM interpretation.

We really do not know and we should not jump to any conclusions.

Find it interesting that when neutral and authorised officers did arrive on the scene the so called terrorists promptly produced and handed over the black boxes.

This plane was blown to smitherines over a wide area so would have been a nightmare to contain, let alone in a war zone.

To me the press reports have been rubbish on the run.

As I say, it is very early days on this.


----------



## Chris45 (22 July 2014)

The MH17 disaster is absolutely horrific and I can only hope that when the missile struck, death came quickly to all those on board via sudden decompression etc. The thought of plummeting 10km fully conscious is sickening.

There's an interesting article on IBTimes... real tinfoil hat stuff!

http://www.ibtimes.com/mh17-crash-c...e-coincidence-first-last-flight-dates-1631648
http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b777-28411.htm

*Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, a Boeing 777, made its first flight on 17-07-1997 and crashed 17 years later, on 17-07-2014*
(2014 reduces to 7: 2+0+1+4=7).

Discussion on Reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/2ayzmj/mh17_discussion_thread/

17 is the 7th prime number.

It was shot down over Grabovo near Donetsk, Ukraine (7, 7, 7 letters).

While not related, the London bombings were on 07-07-2005 (reduces to 777)

*Christine Lagarde*, the head of the IMF, gave a speech about numerology and the "magic number seven".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw

1:22 - "Now I'm going to test your numerology skills by asking you to think about the magic seven"
1:34 - "Most of you will know that seven is quite a number
2:24 - "2014, you drop the zero, fourteen, two times, seven"
4:08 - "It will mark the 70th anniversary, 70th anniversary, drop the zero, seven, of the Bretton Woods Conference that actually gave birth to the IMF" (7 + 0 = 7)
4:22 - "And it will be the 25th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall, 25th.." (2 + 5 = 7)
4:38 - "It will also mark the 7th anniversary of the financial market jitters"
5:08 - "After those seven miserable years, weak and fragile"
5:14 - "We have seven strong years"
5:43 - "Now I don't know if the G7 will have anything to do with it" (G is also the 7th letter of the alphabet)


----------



## DB008 (22 July 2014)

*John Kerry: US detected the missile launch from Ukraine and observed it hitting Flight MH17*


----------



## McLovin (22 July 2014)

explod said:


> Find it interesting that when neutral and authorised officers did arrive on the scene the so called terrorists promptly produced and handed over the black boxes.




It was handed over after Russia voted in favour of a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation. I'd say that's more than just a coincidence.

It hasn't been proven beyond doubt but really the evidence is very strong that it was the separatists.


----------



## explod (22 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> It was handed over after Russia voted in favour of a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation. I'd say that's more than just a coincidence.
> 
> It hasn't been proven beyond doubt but really the evidence is very strong that it was the separatists.




Evidence! strong! 

What is some of this evidence? And is it tangble or just some u tube or someone's say so.

Apart from US backed jawboning we know nought at this stage. Russia had never indicated that they would not go along with proper action.  Again this was the press.

The whole thing is absolutely dreadful and unfortunately the press love it.  On top of that it is prividing a MSM cover for shocking atrocities around the Gaza east bank.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 July 2014)

explod said:


> Evidence! strong!
> 
> What is some of this evidence? And is it tangble or just some u tube or someone's say so.
> 
> ...




Sometimes plod, you just have to man up and decide what is the most likely, rather than live in an attrition battle over facts for 10 years or more.

You need to man up.

You sound like an apologist for the Russkies of old. Boring , predictable, and wrong. 

gg


----------



## McLovin (22 July 2014)

explod said:


> Evidence! strong!
> 
> What is some of this evidence? And is it tangble or just some u tube or someone's say so.




They shot down a Ukrainian military aircraft at high altitude flying in the same area a week before.

There is the voice recording of them admitting to have shot the plane.

They plastered all over social media that they had hit an aircraft, which they clearly believed was a Ukrainian military aircraft. Once they realised it was a civilian airliner, they quickly removed any references.

The US has said it has satellite imagery of the missile being launched. It was the reason that they were able to conclude within hours of the crash that it had been caused by a missile and where that missile was fired from. I'm sure the Russians have their own systems that show the same.



			
				explod said:
			
		

> Apart from US backed jawboning we know nought at this stage. Russia had never indicated that they would not go along with proper action.  Again this was the press.




Rotting corpses and people stealing from the dead in a field controlled by a group that owes its existence to the support of Moscow doesn't seem like "proper action". And if they don't have them on a short leash, then they wouldn't be sending them a BUK.


----------



## explod (23 July 2014)

You may well be right McLovin, only time will tell.

But we are a long way from knowing.

The cooling down of our Prime Minister the last day or so is interesting though.


----------



## basilio (23 July 2014)

It looks as if the US has come to the same initial conclusion regarding the shooting down of MH17. *The separatists shot it down by mistake using Russian missiles.*

I think Tony Abbott is going to get some good recognition for the way he has initially led world outrage on the issue and then worked the UN to make effective security council resolutions on investigating the disaster.

I think the war talk rhetoric has subsided and been replaced with the personal horror of the loss of life and determination to have some sort of justice.

Good work..


----------



## Julia (23 July 2014)

basilio said:


> It looks as if the US has come to the same initial conclusion regarding the shooting down of MH17. *The separatists shot it down by mistake using Russian missiles.*
> 
> I think Tony Abbott is going to get some good recognition for the way he has initially led world outrage on the issue and then worked the UN to make effective security council resolutions on investigating the disaster.
> 
> ...



Agree, basilio.    Julie Bishop also deserves credit for her role which has been considerable.


----------



## McLovin (24 July 2014)

And two more shot down yesterday.



> TOREZ, Ukraine ”” Separatists fighting the Kiev government claimed credit for shooting down two warplanes Wednesday over eastern Ukraine near where a passenger airliner crashed last week after being struck by a missile.
> 
> The attack on the warplanes came just six days after the Malaysia Airlines disaster, which has drawn international outrage and showcased the advanced firepower that apparently is available on the ground in the region. The Ukrainian military said Wednesday that the two planes were flying at nearly 17,000 feet ”” an altitude that is out of the reach of the shoulder-fired missiles that the rebels said they had used to down the jets. Neither the government’s nor the rebels’ claims could be verified.


----------



## Julia (24 July 2014)

I'm not usually disposed toward conspiracy theories, but there are also two more passenger aircraft crashed or missing today:
Air Algerie Airbus 320
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-24/air-algerie-passenger-jet-missing/5622514

and

Trans Asia Airways, at least 40 dead, crashed during emergency landing
http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...mergency-landing/story-fnizu68q-1226999360321

Perhaps such misadventure is not unusual with these airlines, but I've not heard of disasters with them in the past.


----------



## Tink (1 August 2014)

*MH17 memorial service to be held in Melbourne on August 7 *



> A NATIONAL day of mourning has been declared next Thursday for the victims of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 tragedy, with a multi-faith memorial service planned for St Patrick’s Cathedral in Melbourne.
> 
> The Prime Minister, speaking on Melbourne radio, said the Victorian capital was selected for the 10.30am service because 16 of the 38 Australian victims were from the state.
> 
> Flags on all Government buildings, here and overseas, will be flown at half-mast and the service will be broadcast live.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...008252078?nk=6d87697979a48aaf60f36eeba7c42fa3


----------



## DeepState (2 August 2014)

Interesting perspective from Niall Ferguson in the FT today about Ukraine and the use of MH17 to escalate tensions.  He goes on to say that all out war is unlikely because the West has no appetite for it and the parallels to the start of WWI are limited to the extent that a pile of misjudgements were made to come to that position.


----------



## McLovin (2 August 2014)

I don't think you can blame the lack of Russian integration solely at Russia's feet. The eastern expansion of NATO set the tone that the West still believed that Russia was a threat. The expansion into countries like Georgia served no purpose other than to antagonise Russia by bringing a defence pact that was created to counter Soviet (Read: Russian) aggression right up to her border.


----------



## chiff (3 August 2014)

I always thought that when the USSR collapsed that Gorbachev made an agreement with NATO that they would not use that as a pretext to encroach on Russia.
Georgia and the threat to place missiles on Russian borders showed Russia that NATO did not take that agreement seriously.
And by their involvement in the Ukraine Russia is going to try to keep NATO at a safe distance.
One way to solve a dangerous situation may be to offer Russia a buffer zone or demilitarised zone on their Ukraine borders.Russia does not trust the intentions of NATO(that is the US)


----------



## So_Cynical (3 August 2014)

McLovin said:


> I don't think you can blame the lack of Russian integration solely at Russia's feet. The eastern expansion of NATO set the tone that the West still believed that Russia was a threat. The expansion into countries like Georgia served no purpose other than to antagonise Russia by bringing a defence pact that was created to counter Soviet (Read: Russian) aggression right up to her border.




Going off topic but imagine if NATO didn't expand, where would that leave Poland, Romania and Latvia etc? neutral country's left as some kind of East/West buffer, or if left with no choice joining with Russia in a new pact?

Given their geographic position and history NATO had to offer membership and they had to accept.


----------



## McLovin (3 August 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Going off topic but imagine if NATO didn't expand, where would that leave Poland, Romania and Latvia etc? neutral country's left as some kind of East/West buffer, or if left with no choice joining with Russia in a new pact?
> 
> Given their geographic position and history NATO had to offer membership and they had to accept.




It would leave those countries in the European Union with its mutual defence obligations but out of NATO. Finland has a huge border with Russia but has never been part of NATO. It gives those countries adequate protection from Russian aggression without being viewed in Russia as the West encircling Russia.

I wouldn't put Poland or Romania in the same boat as the Baltic states or the Ukraine, the latter were part of the Soviet Union, the former were not. They also don't have a border with Russia, with the exception of the Kaliningrad Oblast.


----------



## Calliope (3 August 2014)

Three of the victims. The Maslin children, Evie, Mo and Otis, 10yo who were killed in the downed Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.




Three of the murderers. Armed pro-Russian separatists block the way to the crash site.




The man with no conscience.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> View attachment 58894
> 
> 
> Three of the victims. The Maslin children, Evie, Mo and Otis, 10yo who were killed in the downed Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
> ...




Good one Calliope.

It says it all.

gg


----------



## McLovin (3 August 2014)

You've got to love how Qantas has spun this whole incident. They didn't fly over that part of the Ukraine because, if you looked at a map, it doesn't really follow a route from London to Dubai, but they did it for safety reasons. Now they say Iraq is safe to fly over, except today it's no longer safe to fly over for "safety reasons".


----------



## Tink (4 August 2014)

Yes, well said, Calliope, very sad.
Our hearts go out to all these families.

Three beautiful children and their grandfather.
We also had all those specialist doctors arriving in Melbourne for the conference, that perished in that plane.


----------



## sydboy007 (9 August 2014)

http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925?d=1

In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts”, Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said “some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame”.

Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes ”” *the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with “flechettes”, and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.*

In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: “The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days”.

“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.

Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.

“It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. *You can’t have projectiles going in both directions ”” into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides ”” unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.*

“Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the *projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired issile,*” Parry had said.


----------



## Calliope (9 August 2014)

Perhaps Putin was pissed wheh he okayed the shooting down of MH17.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2014)

Strange how news of MH17 has dropped right out of the news reports.

Perhaps because, regardless of all their bluster, the government has failed to actually achieve anything in the way of international cooperation in the recovery of bodies or the gathering of evidence as to the culprits in this tragedy.

Mr Abbott and Ms Bishop were lauded by some for a supposed appropriate response, but their efforts have fallen on deaf ears, and even our great ally the US doesn't appear to give a toss.


----------



## Julia (22 August 2014)

Your post reminds me:  what also has happened re the other Malaysia plane which simply disappeared?

There was a very brief news item a few weeks ago saying the search was moving to a different place.
I've asked many times and never had an answer:   is Australia the only country funding this search if indeed it's still happening?  And if so, why?   Surely several other countries would seem to have a greater responsibility than Australia which simply happened to be the nearest country to where someone has guessed it might have gone down.  In fact, no one seems to have a clue about what might have happened.


----------



## noco (22 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Strange how news of MH17 has dropped right out of the news reports.
> 
> Perhaps because, regardless of all their bluster, the government has failed to actually achieve anything in the way of international cooperation in the recovery of bodies or the gathering of evidence as to the culprits in this tragedy.
> 
> Mr Abbott and Ms Bishop were lauded by some for a supposed appropriate response, but their efforts have fallen on deaf ears, and even our great ally the US doesn't appear to give a toss.




IMHO I believe the ABC and Fairfax have dropped news on the Malaysian  MH17 because it was giving too much credence to Tony Abbott and Julie Bishop.


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## chiff (23 August 2014)

Flying to KL next week on Malaysian Airlines...so if no more posts it was a bad decision.Four days for a dental visit.With fares like this who could resist?


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## SirRumpole (23 August 2014)

noco said:


> IMHO I believe the ABC and Fairfax have dropped news on the Malaysian  MH17 because it was giving too much credence to Tony Abbott and Julie Bishop.




The ABC is now a part of the LNP collective.

Resistance was futile.

They have been assimilated.


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