# Useless Labor Party



## idribble (16 March 2006)

Always have been a swinging voter ..... always will be.

This time I'll vote Labor only because Sophie Panopolous is my sitting Liberal member and I wouldn't give her the steam off my vote if my life depended on it.

That aside, when is the Labor Party going to sort out their mess?  They are a joke, but the bigger joke is that they will probably get 48-49% of the vote.  Shows how stupid we are (unless you've got a gripe like me) to vote for a party that is so damn fragmented it's frightening.

Bring on Julia and Simon.


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## Bobby (16 March 2006)

idribble said:
			
		

> Always have been a swinging voter ..... always will be.
> 
> This time I'll vote Labor only because Sophie Panopolous is my sitting Liberal member and I wouldn't give her the steam off my vote if my life depended on it.
> 
> ...




Well idribble that was funny , thanks for the laugh mate !  

Bob.


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## Smurf1976 (16 March 2006)

Meanwhile in Tasmania, the state Liberal party is still on about creative accounting with the finances, extracting extra profits from government businesses rather than reinvesting in the future, big spending and so on. They haven't learnt from the last two times they were in government and virtually sent the state broke... 

It's not good to have a weak opposition no matter who you would rather have in government. At best it leads to the government being slack and getting away with things they otherwise wouldn't (regardless of whether the government is Labor or Liberal).


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## Julia (16 March 2006)

idribble said:
			
		

> Always have been a swinging voter ..... always will be.
> 
> This time I'll vote Labor only because Sophie Panopolous is my sitting Liberal member and I wouldn't give her the steam off my vote if my life depended on it.
> 
> ...




Are you seriously suggesting a return of Simon Crean to a/the top job?

Julia


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## Bobby (16 March 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Are you seriously suggesting a return of Simon Crean to a/the top job?
> 
> Julia



Hullo Julia,
I  think  dribble is pulling our leg   .

But as the fat bloke seems to not have it? who will be the next ?  

I must ask sports bet !.

Bob.


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## Julia (17 March 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hullo Julia,
> I  think  dribble is pulling our leg   .
> 
> But as the fat bloke seems to not have it? who will be the next ?
> ...




Hi Bob,

Yes, must be re Crean.  But wouldn't Julia Gillard be a genuine contender at some stage, given the paucity of choice in the party?  She seems to have had some coaching and has modified her voice to a more ear-friendly level.
Kevin Rudd obviously sees himself in the position but imo would need to find a way of appearing less pompous and humourless.  

Any other contenders?

The Libs must be smiling at the disarray!

Julia


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## professor_frink (17 March 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Kevin Rudd obviously sees himself in the position but imo would need to find a way of appearing less pompous and humourless.




COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER MYSELF   
 I hate that guy :


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## bunyip (17 March 2006)

"idribble's' decision to vote for the ALP whom he considers 'fragmented' and 'a joke', simply because he dislikes his local Liberal member, is perplexing, to say the least. 
Sorry dribble, but you're not making much sense from where I'm standing.

If Crean was brought back as ALP leader (which he will never be) he'd have no chance of leading his party to an election win. 
Ditto for Beazley, whose days as ALP leader are clearly numbered.

Kevin Rudd.... too dour, too humourless, not enough public appeal.

Steven Smith....I thought he would have been knocking on the leadership door by now, but it hasn't happened so far. I thought he might have gone OK as ALP leader. 

Gillard is their best prospect in the foreseeable future, and she'll probably oust Beasley in the not too distant future. But I doubt if Australians are ready for a woman PM just yet.

The one to watch is Bill Shorten. The ALP is obviously grooming him for the top job, and it won't surprise me if he goes all the way.
I shudder to think of an ex - ACTU boss as our PM. Former ACTU boss Hawke was a disaster as PM and I doubt if Shorten would be any improvement.

I just hope Howard stays in the job and continues to run the country as well as he's done so far. And that the Libs don't start in-fighting as a result of Costello's Prime Ministerial aspirations. And that when Howard decides to step down, his replacement can duplicate Howard's excellent performance.
When you're on a good thing, stick to it.

Bunyip


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## Smurf1976 (17 March 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> I just hope Howard stays in the job and continues to run the country as well as he's done so far. And that the Libs don't start in-fighting as a result of Costello's Prime Ministerial aspirations. And that when Howard decides to step down, his replacement can duplicate Howard's excellent performance.
> When you're on a good thing, stick to it.
> 
> Bunyip



Just wondering why you say "Howard's excellent performance"? 

I'm not disagreeing (or agreeing) with you as such, just wondering on what basis you consider his performance to have been excellent?

I can think of quite a few areas where he's done a good job, others where he hasn't IMO.


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## wayneL (17 March 2006)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> Just wondering why you say "Howard's excellent performance"?
> 
> I'm not disagreeing (or agreeing) with you as such, just wondering on what basis you consider his performance to have been excellent?
> 
> I can think of quite a few areas where he's done a good job, others where he hasn't IMO.





The proverbial drovers dog would have looked good in the last 10 years... even Beazley woulda. It's almost nothing to do with management, it's liquidity in the world economy. You should thank one Mr A Greenspan for that, if indeed, one thinks it is a good thing.

I don't.

Cheers


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## Rafa (17 March 2006)

we are currently in election mode in SA, and its fascinating to see the federal ministers lambasting the SA labor premier for claiming the credit for the booming economy...

yet, i recall the libs running similar ads claiming the credit for keeping interest rates low... when anyone with half a brain would realise we really have no control over it!!!

politicians never cease to amaze me in taking all the credit for the good things and saying its out of their hands when things go bad...

PS: this goes for both sides of politics...

now that most of the economy is deregulated, I beleive the things politicians should be judged on are things where they actually can make a difference in... tax policy, social policy, health, and education... 

i think much more could be done in those areas... what do others think of howards record in these areas... (fail, pass, credit, distinction) I would give him a pass for most of it...


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## wayneL (17 March 2006)

tax policy,- swapped one crap, complicated, unfair system for another - fail

social policy, what social policy? - fail

health, - treading water, failed to improve it.. it's actually very expensive. I wouldn't say fail, but wouldn't pass either.

and education... - don't know


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## idribble (17 March 2006)

and education... - don't know

If you don't know WayneL then obviously another fail.


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## Prospector (17 March 2006)

Rafa said:
			
		

> we are currently in election mode in SA, and its fascinating to see the federal ministers lambasting the SA labor premier for claiming the credit for the booming economy...
> 
> ...




I think everyone is just so sick of 'good news Mike' or 'media Mike', and that includes the media!  On 102.3 radio the other day after the long weekend they were saying things like "great weather yesterday for the Adelaide Cup - oh yeah, Mike Rann arranged that" and similar lines.  Didnt see him for smoke when the airport wasnt happening.  And seriously, there is no way he had any influence over the Submarine Corp contract, yet he is using it as a major platform.  I just dont understand why the Libs havent rebutted his claims of positive economy when it was the sale of ETSA that gave them the money to improve their credit ratings.  And why did the Libs sell ETSA, because media Mike and his crew almost bankrupted us from the State Bank.  Short memories.


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## wayneL (17 March 2006)

idribble said:
			
		

> and education... - don't know
> 
> If you don't know WayneL then obviously another fail.




True!


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## bunyip (17 March 2006)

Smurf

I won't go into detail, but briefly, I like Howard's handling of the economy, his getting rid of the huge defecit that he inherited, and the fact that he took measures that have been effective in blocking the flood of illegal boat people who were invading us.

I could point out other positives too, and also some negatives. I won't elaborate further - politics is to me a boring subject.

Bunyip


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## Smurf1976 (17 March 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> I just dont understand why the Libs havent rebutted his claims of positive economy when it was the sale of ETSA that gave them the money to improve their credit ratings.  And why did the Libs sell ETSA, because media Mike and his crew almost bankrupted us from the State Bank.  Short memories.



ETSA = Electricity Trust of South Australia, equivalent the old SECV, SECWA etc.

Must thank the SA government for selling it since doing so has created some nice opportunities for Tasmania's state-owned electricity companies to make a profit doing business there.


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## anon (17 March 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Smurf
> 
> I won't go into detail, but briefly, I like Howard's handling of the economy, his getting rid of the huge defecit that he inherited, and the fact that he took measures that have been effective in blocking the flood of illegal boat people who were invading us.
> 
> ...





Howard and Australia are regarded well by our Asian neighbours. That has to be a big plus.

We often complain about what the politicians have or have not done. This is according to our own expectations. The same things are often considered as wise moves by others. Maybe we judge too early. 

anon


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## mime (18 March 2006)

If you don't like Sophie vote for the Nats. 49% Labor vote is unlikely because that's just what the poll's indicate. They don't count undecided votes.


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## crackaton (18 March 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> Smurf
> 
> I won't go into detail, but briefly, I like Howard's handling of the economy, his getting rid of the huge defecit that he inherited, and the fact that he took measures that have been effective in blocking the flood of illegal boat people who were invading us.
> 
> ...




You have to be joking right? There are more immigrants coming into this country than ever, and heaps of them may as well be illegals, because they don't speak english, have no formal qualifications and will become a major burden on this society in years to come. The country is based on huge personal debt and personal tax. Thats how he has managed to eliminate the deficit. It's a no brainer, tax to the max and of course the government looks good. What a farken joke this place has become, highest personal income tax and a GST, not to mention stamp duty etc etc etc. No wonder there is a such a demand for accountants. 

Does this country actually produce anything of worth anymore  other than houses and raw minerals? Answer: nope. It is well and truly time for him to depart. In fact it really does not matter what jokers run the country now, the place is a dead loss.


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## Julia (19 March 2006)

crackaton said:
			
		

> You have to be joking right? There are more immigrants coming into this country than ever, and heaps of them may as well be illegals, because they don't speak english, have no formal qualifications and will become a major burden on this society in years to come. The country is based on huge personal debt and personal tax. Thats how he has managed to eliminate the deficit. It's a no brainer, tax to the max and of course the government looks good. What a farken joke this place has become, highest personal income tax and a GST, not to mention stamp duty etc etc etc. No wonder there is a such a demand for accountants.
> 
> Does this country actually produce anything of worth anymore  other than houses and raw minerals? Answer: nope. It is well and truly time for him to depart. In fact it really does not matter what jokers run the country now, the place is a dead loss.



Crackaton:

Who would you suggest as a replacement and how do you think he/she/that party would manage what better?

Julia


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## bunyip (19 March 2006)

Well now Crackaton.......

I agree that there are more immigrants coming into this country than ever, and heaps of them may as well be illegals, because they don't speak english, have no formal qualifications and will become a major burden on this society in years to come.

Our immigration policy is crass stupidity, no question about it. But it wasn't started by Howard and it won't end if he gets replaced by an ALP government. 

You reckon this place is a 'farken joke' and 'a dead loss', and it won't make any difference who runs the country. Wow...you really sound disillusioned!
What's the solution then, if there is one? 
Or should we just emigrate to a better place ourselves?
And where would that 'better place' be?

Bunyip


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## anon (19 March 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> tax policy,- swapped one crap, complicated, unfair system for another - fail
> 
> social policy, what social policy? - fail
> 
> ...




A big problem with taxation is people not paying taxes. There are some prominent barristers who haven't paid taxes in over twenty years. Big business people have been known to use off-shore tax havens. I've heard that there is rorting with gst. 

If everybody paid their due share - the tax burden for those who can't or won't avoid paying would be decreased.


If you are talking about the social welfare policy - then I can only say it is far too generous. There are several million work able people in Australia who don't work forcing those who do work to pay higher taxes. Migrants stream in to Australia being attracted by our welfare system. "Figures based on 1996 census noted that welfrare dependency rate in the largely Muslim Lebanese community is three times the national average". (Article by Angela Shanahan in Weekend Australian, Inquirer, 18/19 Feb. 2006).

Noel Pearson, a prominent Aboriginal social activist argues strongly that the too generous welfare system is harming the indiginous peoples.


Health is a state responsibility, not commonwealth's. Just have a look at how Mr Beatty has stuffed it up in Queensland. And our problems will flow on to the other states. 


Education - that is another very important national issue which happens to be a state responsibility. And it is in a disastrous state. No wonder so many parents opt to pay big money to have their children educated in private schools. 

anon


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## Bobby (19 March 2006)

anon said:
			
		

> A big problem with taxation is people not paying taxes. There are some prominent barristers who haven't paid taxes in over twenty years. Big business people have been known to use off-shore tax havens. I've heard that there is rorting with gst.
> 
> If everybody paid their due share - the tax burden for those who can't or won't avoid paying would be decreased.
> 
> ...



Well Anon you seem do have your finger on the pulse ! Mate  .
Bludgers from the middle east seem to have won the Gold medal in the welfare contest   .

Bob


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## Prospector (20 March 2006)

And wealthy families who employ clever accountants so that they hand over their free education cards and avoid paying school fees and get free text books as the golds drips off their arms as they drive away in their latest model mercs........not waspish either!


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## idribble (20 March 2006)

OK crackaton, you're joking right?  I'll take the bait tho'.

I suppose John Howard had HIS hand in YUOR pocker and forked out YOUR hard earned for the tens of thousands of dollars wirth of tech stuff that you really don't need to exist.  then there's the up to date car that you really don't need.  Then there's the 4 bedroom home, when you could actually do with three.  All YOUR CHOICES cracko!!  And you are the one paying the 15% interest .........

Next time, put a zip on your pocket so that John doesn't get his hands on your money or .....

Hey, you could stop spending beyond your means!!  There's a novel idea.


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## Mumbank (20 March 2006)

Yes Anon there are some big name barristers who have not paid tax for 20 years or so, but they have now been struck off and most if not all are going to end with not a lot, see the High Court have now decided that Cummins little transfer of property to his wife was illegal and that now becomes part of his estate and so it should.  These people are very ignorant to think they could get away with it - but hey how good are the tax dept - their Senior Legal Advisor had not ever paid tax and they were paying his huge fees and did not even realise he was not paying any tax!!!!!!!!!!!  Boy they sure are on the ball.

Have you tried to get a tradesman to work and give you a Tax Invoice lately!!! Boy the cash society has increased heaps since the GST came in.  And I'm not talking the little bits either, on recent renovations (which we didn't end up doing) not one person was willing to do the job unless it was for cash - that means no insurance, no warranty etc.  If I can't work for cash why should they?!?!?!

So you see its not only barristers who don't pay tax, although they seem to get the blame for it all lately, but anyone who can get away without paying any tax does and those of us who can't get away with it don't.  I have no problem paying my share we all have a social and moral obligation to do so, but if I can't get any benefits because of my income why should people earning lots more than me (but in cash) be able to get all the benefits of a "low income".  

Personally, I'd rather earn more and pay more tax, because IMHO if you ain't got a tax problem - you ain't got any money!!!!!!!!


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## BraceFace (21 March 2006)

bunyip said:
			
		

> "
> If Crean was brought back as ALP leader (which he will never be) he'd have no chance of leading his party to an election win.
> Ditto for Beazley, whose days as ALP leader are clearly numbered.
> 
> ...





I reckon, this is a pretty fair summary on the current Federal ALP leadship situation, although I reckon you're being a bit harsh on Bob. He was in the job for 7 years - so he couldn't have been that bad. I seem to remember that our current PM was an opposition front bencher at the time. Back then the coalition bore strikingly similar resemblences to the current day ALP - no direction, infighting, leadership problems(of which Lil John was right in the middle)....I wouldn't write the ALP off just yet.
Crean and Gillard - would be about as effective leaders as Hewson and Downer were to the Libs. No way Jose
Rudd - has potential but needs a charisma makeover.
Smith - served his apprenticeship as under Keating and certainly has the credentials to make an excellent future leader (but not until the "other" WA guy - Beazley, is off the scene)
As much as I like Beazley, I think he's going to have to pull one out the hat to win the next election.I can't see anyone else doing a better job for the ALP at the moment, so they might as well stick with experience.
I reckon the only chance he has got is if Howard stands down and we have a Beazley V Costello election on our hands. The smarm factor could be Costello's undoing.

It may be time for Bob Carr or another ex-state ALP premier to step up to the plate.

And then there's Peter Garrett - he get the younger voters for sure


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## Julia (21 March 2006)

BraceFace said:
			
		

> I reckon, this is a pretty fair summary on the current Federal ALP leadship situation, although I reckon you're being a bit harsh on Bob. He was in the job for 7 years - so he couldn't have been that bad. I seem to remember that our current PM was an opposition front bencher at the time. Back then the coalition bore strikingly similar resemblences to the current day ALP - no direction, infighting, leadership problems(of which Lil John was right in the middle)....I wouldn't write the ALP off just yet.
> Crean and Gillard - would be about as effective leaders as Hewson and Downer were to the Libs. No way Jose
> Rudd - has potential but needs a charisma makeover.
> Smith - served his apprenticeship as under Keating and certainly has the credentials to make an excellent future leader (but not until the "other" WA guy - Beazley, is off the scene)
> ...




The "smarm factor" is a good expression.  Perhaps also the "smirk factor"?

Julia


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## Rafa (21 March 2006)

i wonder how many state level premiers have considered the switch to federal.... 

as for bob carr, dunno how muddied his name has now become... beattie seems a better leader to me... 

its fair to say, there is no way a labor lefty will win the election unless there is a massive change in popular sentiment... (that rules out gillard an co...) 

the labor leader would have to come from labor's right... pragmatic with a social conscience...

i like rudd cause he talks a lot of sense, tho his pompous mannerism need to be turned down...

all this factional crap has been blown out of all proportion, i mean, which politcal party doesn't have it... its just that the party in power and a popular leader masks the in-fighting...


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## anon (22 March 2006)

Mumbank said -
"Personally, I'd rather earn more and pay more tax, because IMHO if you ain't got a tax problem - you ain't 
got any money!!!!!!!!"

Well said, Mumbank!  I couldn't agree more.     anon



Is our alternative major political party a "Useless Labor Party" ?  

Judging by their behaviour it seems that it is, which is very unfortunate for the nation. The mob that is in the 
government now seem to be making a reasonable job of running the country, but how long will they be able to 
keep it up ?  They need to be pushed to keep performing, or be pushed out by a party that will perform. 



Is this Labor Party capable of doing it ?  Are they really up to it ?

Labor party leaders and contenders who have been discussed in this thread are yesterday's people. The 
unions that selected them are themselves dying off and before long may not exist at all. I am not talking about 
the new IR laws that will cause the demise, though they will have a major bearing on this issue. I am 
wondering just how long can a unionised workforce compete against the cheap production coming from 
China, and soon from India, And not just manufacturing either. Just keep an eye on Qantas for one.


Of the people currently at the top I'd go for Kevin Rudd. I heard him speak about three years ago and 
remember being impressed with his sincerity, energy, and obvious ability. I think that I could trust him, which 
is more than I can say for Julia Gillard.

anon


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## Prospector (22 March 2006)

Yes anon - I think all you say is true!  And I think Kevin Rudd would be better than the other options presented too!

Unions are on their way out whether they like it or not.  The issue with unions is that they are most powerful when they are not needed, and pretty powerless when they are.

We do need a strong opposition to keep the Government on track and that applies to state politics too!  In SA our opposition has been decimated - not because what Rann and his mates are doing right, but because what the opposition is doing is so, very very wrong.  They are split by factions - they would rather have 'their' man as opposition leader, rather than another faction's 'man' as premier!  Unbelievable :swear:   So as a compromise they put up a person whom everyone likes as the nice friendly man but in no way effective as someone who can lead the state!

Now we have another foour years of huffing puffing aren't I great Media Mike


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## Nicks (23 March 2006)

Bob Carr?

Well this is what I have to say:

This is Australia, not NSW. Carr has done a very ordinary job looking after NSW, and NSW IS NOT AUSTRALIA. 

If you want toll roads and bridges everywhere, ridiculously expensive real estate, slimebag who looks after himself (now consults for very large sums of money to companies that are running the privatised roads which he sold) then look no further than slimy Carr. Why would you privatise a road and charge people money? expressways save money.

Just coz you have run Sydney does not automatically mean you are good enough to run the country. Its a different league and plenty of state Premiers have excelled much more than Bob. So why are we talking Carr then? oh thats right, everything in this country revolves around NSW.

So to the typical Sydneysider (of which I used to be one) who knows nothing more than Sydney, open your eyes and get off of your pedestal.


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## mista200 (23 March 2006)

How can anyone on this forum support a party that wants to amend/destroy the new workplace laws. I mean come on we are capitalists aren't we?


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## Julia (23 March 2006)

mista200 said:
			
		

> How can anyone on this forum support a party that wants to amend/destroy the new workplace laws. I mean come on we are capitalists aren't we?




Hello Mista200

Is your post just a bit tongue in cheek?

As it happens I couldn't support that party as it stands at present, and am overall happy with the status quo, despite some concerns about its social values (or lack thereof).

That doesn't mean, however, that I don't have considerable sympathy for what will probably be vast numbers of people who simply lack the personal skills of assertiveness etc to negotiate the best possible deals for themselves in the work environment.  They are vulnerable to exploitation and, whilst the results may be advantageous to the broader economy - what we capitalists are looking for, are we not - I feel it would be a sad day when that consideration completely obliterates any concern we may feel for our less vocal or articulate citizens.

Julia


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## twojacks28 (13 April 2006)

the main problem with the IR laws is that  most people dont understand them. they are actully good as the employers and employees have even amounts of power in the workplace. there is a problem with the sacking of workers with no reason but with all new laws there are flaws and most are always fixed up it just takes time.


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## noco (27 March 2014)

I could believe how these "HILL BILLIES" behaved in parliament come question time Wednesday......It was a well rehearsed and orchestrated performance to turn parliament into a circus with Bill Shorten and Tony Bourke the main clowns.

It was a typical union hack display of disruption, bullying and intimidation......the disrespect for the speaker Bronwyn Bishop was an absolute disgrace of the first order.

The laughter and the hand waving was a special feature organised no doubt by Shorten himself....I would not have been surprised if the speaker had asked Shorten to leave the chamber because he was no doubt the ring leader.

Paul Sheehan on Labor’s strange denial: 

Anyone watching the proceedings of Parliament on Wednesday, during which [Julie] Collins was thrown out by the speaker for impersonating a schoolgirl chortling and sledging in class, may be struck by the way the political class is increasingly divorced from reality. It applies to all parties but is stark in the current insular model of the ALP, which lost last year’s federal election, just lost office in Tasmania, just lost its majority in South Australia, was smashed in the last NSW election, was smashed in the last Queensland election and lost office in the last Victorian election. It even lost its majority in the ACT in 2012.

It’s been the same for the Greens, with a series of heavy defeats in federal, state and local government elections, including a disaster in one of its strongholds, Canberra, where it lost three of its four seats in the 2012 ACT Legislative Assembly elections.Yet none of these clear messages from the electorate appears to have made a scintilla of difference to either of the parties pummelled by the voters. We know they care deeply about losing, because Labor and the Greens desperately need control of the public sector to service their bases, but it appears increasingly and depressingly obvious they are terminally inward-looking, and preoccupied with tactical skirmishing and scorched earth rejectionism.

(Thanks to reader Peter of Bellevue Hill.)

I am certain, a majority of viewers would have regarded their performance a disgrace......I could not believe even Hawke and Keating would have condoned such behaviour......They have brought parliament into disrepute and nothing like it has been seen before.


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## noco (27 March 2014)

A record 98 Labor members thrown out of parliament and they all deserved it for unruly disruption, bullying and intimidation of the speaker.

Read the comments to this link....I could only find one supporter for the misbehaviour of Labor members. ....Most of them are ex union thugs. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-bronwyn-bishop/story-fn59niix-1226866462186


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## SirRumpole (27 March 2014)

noco said:


> A record 98 Labor members thrown out of parliament and they all deserved it for unruly disruption, bullying and intimidation of the speaker.
> 
> Read the comments to this link....I could only find one supporter for the misbehaviour of Labor members. ....Most of them are ex union thugs.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-bronwyn-bishop/story-fn59niix-1226866462186




Bronwyn Bishop is the worst, most biased Speaker I've heard. Compared to Harry Jenkins, Anna Burke and even the Slipper she is inferior.

Throwing someone out for saying "Madam Speaker" is utterly corrupt imo.

She got what she deserved. The motion was always going to lose, but something had to be done.

She allows every answer to be a tirade against the Opposition when standing orders specify that answers must pertain to the Minister's responsibilities, not to those that went before.

Question Time is a farce under her Speakership.


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## noco (27 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Bronwyn Bishop is the worst, most biased Speaker I've heard. Compared to Harry Jenkins, Anna Burke and even the Slipper she is inferior.
> 
> Throwing someone out for saying "Madam Speaker" is utterly corrupt imo.
> 
> ...




She learnt all her lessons from Anna Burke...Anna Burke was a past master at allowing Gillard, Rudd and Swan to get away with murder ...of course we won"t mention the latest Labor jail bird.


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## banco (27 March 2014)

noco said:


> She learnt all her lessons from Anna Burke...Anna Burke was a past master at allowing Gillard, Rudd and Swan to get away with murder ...of course we won"t mention the latest Labor jail bird.




What exactly did Anna Burke do?  You are just making stuff up as usual.


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## drsmith (27 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Throwing someone out for saying "Madam Speaker" is utterly corrupt imo.



Labor don't want to debate the issues because on so many of them they are utterly compromised.

All they want to do is harass the speaker. She should throw the lot of them out.


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## SirRumpole (27 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Labor don't want to debate the issues because on so many of them they are utterly compromised.




There can be no DEBATE in question time, as the Opposition has no opportunity to give their point of view , only to ask questions, which simply results in a tirade against the Labor party, against standing orders.


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## drsmith (27 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> There can be no DEBATE in question time, as the Opposition has no opportunity to give their point of view , only to ask questions, which simply results in a tirade against the Labor party, against standing orders.



That get the tirade they deserve, in particular the member for Lilley from Joe Hockey.

Whoever started this thread was a genius. In its 6-years in office, Labor demonstrated itself to be utterly useless.


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## noco (27 March 2014)

banco said:


> What exactly did Anna Burke do?  You are just making stuff up as usual.




Banco, it depends which side of the fence you are on.

I listened to plenty of question time under speaker Anna Burke....She was more biased than Bronwyn Bishop......The thing that has made Bishop notable is the bad behaviour of the opposition who deliberately set out to make a mockery of parliament and the speaker......the 98 who have been ejected deserved to be sent on their way........it has been a well rehearsed and orchestrated effort by the Labor Party....even blind Freddy would be able to follow the modus operandi of these ex union hacks.......they are champions at it, especially when dealing with employers....They know how to provoke, intimidate and bully. 

Tony Bourke even read his movement of "NO CONFIDENCE"  of the speaker which is evident it did not happen on the spare of the moment.......Labor had been building up their intimidation and provocation for the past two weeks and waited on the last sitting......it was all about conditioning the build up for the final curtain drop.


----------



## noco (27 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Bronwyn Bishop is the worst, most biased Speaker I've heard. Compared to Harry Jenkins, Anna Burke and even the Slipper she is inferior.
> 
> Throwing someone out for saying "Madam Speaker" is utterly corrupt imo.
> 
> ...




Thrown out for saying "MADAM SPEAKER"????????????......Dreyfus actually said it in a derogatory manner..........

"MA DAME SPEAKER" being a slur on her character and that is why he was ejected......I listened to it first hand and still have a recording of it.


----------



## Julia (27 March 2014)

In the 21 years I've lived in Australia, Bronwyn Bishop has been mocked by both sides.

Imo she was a very poor choice because she did not come into the position with any semblance of respect from the opposition and some of her own side.  What has happened could have been foreseen.

For all that, the opposition has made their lack of respect for her crystal clear from the start in a manner that, had the sides been reversed, and one of their own members being speaker, would have seen them whining about misogyny as they did when Julia Gillard was PM.

For all Mrs Bishop's faults she has had an uphill battle from the beginning and the disrespectful situation reflects badly on both parties.  Tony Abbott should have had more sense than to put such a divisive figure into such an important position.  
Yet another example of his poor judgement imo, along with his PPL and anachronistic revival of Knights and Dames.


----------



## banco (27 March 2014)

noco said:


> Banco, it depends which side of the fence you are on.
> 
> I listened to plenty of question time under speaker Anna Burke....She was more biased than Bronwyn Bishop......The thing that has made Bishop notable is the bad behaviour of the opposition who deliberately set out to make a mockery of parliament and the speaker......the 98 who have been ejected deserved to be sent on their way........it has been a well rehearsed and orchestrated effort by the Labor Party....even blind Freddy would be able to follow the modus operandi of these ex union hacks.......they are champions at it, especially when dealing with employers....They know how to provoke, intimidate and bully.
> 
> Tony Bourke even read his movement of "NO CONFIDENCE"  of the speaker which is evident it did not happen on the spare of the moment.......Labor had been building up their intimidation and provocation for the past two weeks and waited on the last sitting......it was all about conditioning the build up for the final curtain drop.





From liberal leaning journalist Peter Van Onselen two days ago:

I wrote a column in November lamenting her poor performance after just two weeks in the chair. My fear was that she wasn’t likely to improve. In fact, she has gotten worse.

Bishop throws Labor MPs out of the chamber with gay abandon. She regularly shuts down points of order before even hearing them. She enters the partisan debate, throwing quips and smirks into the equation in a way that should be beneath the Speaker. And she rarely if ever rules against the government on anything.

Before Bishop took up the position, several Liberal MPs told me that they thought it was a mistake to give it to her because she’d make herself the story.

But there was little MPs could do about her appointment: Tony Abbott wanted to dump her from the ministry and offering Bishop the Speakership was the only alternative he’d accept (the pair are close).

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...ecoming-a-circus/story-fni6unxq-1226861941810


----------



## banco (27 March 2014)

Julia said:


> In the 21 years I've lived in Australia, Bronwyn Bishop has been mocked by both sides.
> 
> Imo she was a very poor choice because she did not come into the position with any semblance of respect from the opposition and some of her own side.  What has happened could have been foreseen.
> 
> ...




She was widely regarded as the least competent Minister in the Howard years  so I guess the speakership was seen as a place to stash her where she couldn't do much damage but her incompetence won through....


----------



## trainspotter (27 March 2014)

banco said:


> She was widely regarded as the least competent Minister in the Howard years  so I guess the speakership was seen as a place to stash her where she couldn't do much damage but her incompetence won through....




*hear hear*


----------



## sails (27 March 2014)

If Ms Bishop were in the labor camp, I would think there would be some very loud screeches of "misogyny" by now.  Thankfully the liberal women don't seem to find it necessary to hide behind their gender.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> That get the tirade they deserve, in particular the member for Lilley from Joe Hockey.
> 
> Whoever started this thread was a genius. In its 6-years in office, Labor demonstrated itself to be utterly useless.




An "adult" government takes responsibility for their own actions and doesn't continually blame others, especially not in the childish way Hockey does it. 

Joe has six weeks to play the blame game, then the spotlight should turn relentlessly on him and the government.


----------



## dutchie (28 March 2014)

Six years of incompetent and costly government deserves at least 6 - 12 months of bagging.


----------



## Calliope (28 March 2014)

noco said:


> ......it has been a well rehearsed and orchestrated effort by the Labor Party....even blind Freddy would be able to follow the modus operandi of these ex union hacks.......they are champions at it, especially when dealing with employers....They know how to provoke, intimidate and bully.




Well put noco.


----------



## noco (28 March 2014)

Let us be fair when analyzing this anomaly of point of order.

Many points of order by Burke and others bordered on argument and not a point of order as they were well aware.....hence the reason why in many cases they were asked to resume their seats.....they then showed more aggression by accusing her of bias because they could not get their own way.

These Labor people were doing their best to test the patience of Browyn Bishop in there constant attack on her authority....they did their best to vilify her at every opportunity....It is a wonder she did not get on her feet and accuse the opposition of being misogynists......I thought she handled the situation with grace and humor.

What is baffling to me is why they tried to move a motion of no confidence in her when they knew they did not have the numbers.....it was nothing more than a stunt to divert attention away from their refusal to scrap the carbon tax and the mining tax which has been hurting all week particularly in Western Australia....both parties in this case were looking for support in the up and coming senate election in that state in a weeks time.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...bishop-speaker-row/story-fn59niix-12268669746


----------



## wayneL (28 March 2014)

You gotta hand it to the comrades, they are masters at attacking straw men. I've been listening to question time a lot and the comrade's conduct has been even more appalling than usual. The grass roots haters out in force too, my FaceAche newsfeed littered with all sorts of diabolical fallaciousness. Never have I seen such a poisonous period in oz politics, dragged into the sewer by those of the left.

Truly disturbing.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 March 2014)

> dragged into the sewer by those of the left.




The far Right is dragging us into the sewer by proposing free hits by their supporters against small groups of people they happen to disagree with or whose colour is not white.


----------



## CanOz (28 March 2014)

wayneL said:


> You gotta hand it to the comrades, they are masters at attacking straw men. I've been listening to question time a lot and the comrade's conduct has been even more appalling than usual. The grass roots haters out in force too, my FaceAche newsfeed littered with all sorts of diabolical fallaciousness. Never have I seen such a poisonous period in oz politics, dragged into the sewer by those of the left.
> 
> Truly disturbing.




totally agree, a disgusting display of animal behavior. As long as the labor party is full of outright criminals and ex-union thugs, there will be no credible opposition for the Australian voter.


----------



## wayneL (28 March 2014)

Far right..... Pfffffdfft. 

The legislation in question is the most anti liberal piece of shyte that should never have entered the statutes.

Bigotry should rightly be spoken against at every opportunity, and be seriously uncool. Inciting violence and fear is one thing, but calling someone a name is not something to be legislated against. Education and the promotion of tolerance and fair play is far mot desirable IMO. 

The left had created yet another despicable straw man argument over this.


----------



## IFocus (28 March 2014)

wayneL said:


> You gotta hand it to the comrades, they are masters at attacking straw men. I've been listening to question time a lot and the comrade's conduct has been even more appalling than usual. The grass roots haters out in force too, my FaceAche newsfeed littered with all sorts of diabolical fallaciousness. Never have I seen such a poisonous period in oz politics, dragged into the sewer by those of the left.
> 
> Truly disturbing.





Bronwyn Bishop has been a shocker of a speaker and is well out of her depth thats beyond question.

There is often a bit of favouritism but Bronwyn Bishop basically doesn't under stand the basic conventions.


Ironically Slipper was far away a better speaker.


----------



## drsmith (28 March 2014)

IFocus said:


> There is often a bit of favouritism but Bronwyn Bishop basically doesn't under stand the basic conventions.



She has 6-weeks to brush up on the standing orders and to understand that when she seats a member, she should just seat them and not engage in further debate with that member at that member's prompting.

The latter was where Labor were able to ware her down. One thing she can be sure of is that Labor will continue to test her.


----------



## banco (28 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> She has 6-weeks to brush up on the standing orders and to understand that when she seats a member, she should just seat them and not engage in further debate with that member at that member's prompting.
> 
> The latter was where Labor were able to ware her down. One thing she can be sure of is that Labor will continue to test her.




She doesn't have the intellectual capacity to do the job.  She's been there for almost a decade. If she doesn't know the standing orders back to front at this stage she's never going to get her head around them.


----------



## drsmith (28 March 2014)

banco said:


> She doesn't have the intellectual capacity to do the job.  She's been there for almost a decade. If she doesn't know the standing orders back to front at this stage she's never going to get her head around them.



Labor picked off a few clangers during her speakership in their suspension attempt on Thursday. This was from a prepared document so it was obviously planned. How it compares with other speakers I don't know. No one's perfect and all make mistakes at some time. One thing of note is that Christoper Pyne didn't come to her defence on those issues. 

Her biggest mistake in my view has been to lose control by allowing herself to be drawn into debate with opposition front benchers. That puts her into a partisan trap. She's better to simply enforce her authority rather than waver from the chair and sort out any problems later.

In the end, she may not have the intellectual capacity to do the job as you say.


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2014)

Getting this thread back on topic,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-head/story-fn59nokw-1226868205305#mm-premium

Usless Labor Party.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Getting this thread back on topic,
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-head/story-fn59nokw-1226868205305#mm-premium
> 
> Usless Labor Party.




By the tone of some of the comments here, maybe this thread should be called "Useless Bronwyn Bishop"


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> By the tone of some of the comments here, maybe this thread should be called "Useless Bronwyn Bishop"



The following article on BB offers an interesting perspective,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...bronwyn-bishop-as-speaker-20140328-35olh.html

Meanwhile, on the substance of this thread, 100 days with no boats and Labor still don't get it.



> Opposition immigration spokesman Richard Marles said it was “too early to proclaim victory”. “It’s not a footy match - it is not about scoreboards and banners and slogans. It is about serious public policy addressing a very, very complicated issue,” he said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ylumseeker-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226868417591

It is about scoreboards and the lower the numbers on this particular issue, the better.

Usless Labor Party.


----------



## IFocus (29 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> She has 6-weeks to brush up on the standing orders and to understand





Well standing orders is another issue to add to the list its the blatant disregard for convention thats very damning.


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2014)

IFocus said:


> Well standing orders is another issue to add to the list its the blatant disregard for convention thats very damning.



What was it exactly that Harry Jenkins did wrong ?

Wrong place at the wrong time ?

Usless Labor Party.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> What was it exactly that Harry Jenkins did wrong ?
> 
> Wrong place at the wrong time ?
> 
> Usless Labor Party.




The Labor Patry have two and a bit years to get their act together. Until then this thread is essentially irrelevant.

The Libs were virtually invisible in Opposition during Rudd/Gillard, but they had their heads down working on tactics(albeit pretty weak populist ones). 

The Labor party has to get itself together again. They will have a chance at the next election because the LNP have already done the most popular thing it can do (stop the boats), and it will be downhill for them from now on.


----------



## noco (30 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> By the tone of some of the comments here, maybe this thread should be called "Useless Bronwyn Bishop"




So why don't you start another thread rummpy?

Like the other one you started about "CORRUPTION IN THE LIBERAL PARTY"......you might get two replies again.


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The Labor party has to get itself together again. They will have a chance at the next election because the LNP have already done the most popular thing it can do (stop the boats), and it will be downhill for them from now on.



Stopping the boats isn't about popularity, it's about securing our borders. That's the most fundamental responsibility of any sovereign government. The first thing Labor needs to do there is genuinely kick the Greens out of their bed and out of the house before they fulfill their dreams of trashing our sovereignty altogether.

Fat chance of that in the foreseeable future. The Greens have sapped too much of Labor's primary vote.

Usless Labor Party.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The Labor party has to get itself together again. They will have a chance at the next election because the LNP have already done the most popular thing it can do (stop the boats), and it will be downhill for them from now on.




It may well be down hill from here, now they have to sort the diabolical financial mess Labor caused.

It would be much easier, just to adopt Labor policy and run us further into debt, now that would be the popular thing.
Also it would be the easy thing to do.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Also it would be the easy thing to do.




The hard thing for the LNP to do is take money from those who can most afford it, because those people are the LNP's majority supporters.

I wait expectantly for Hockey to take the tough decisions and tax the rich more, if he does, then he is courageous indeed.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The hard thing for the LNP to do is take money from those who can most afford it, because those people are the LNP's majority supporters.
> 
> I wait expectantly for Hockey to take the tough decisions and tax the rich more, if he does, then he is courageous indeed.




Well they haven't been throwing money at big business, if you hadn't noticed.

Yet Labor were saying they would have bailed them out, I wonder where they would have found the money?


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I wait expectantly for Hockey to take the tough decisions and tax the rich more, if he does, then he is courageous indeed.



That's what the carbon tax in conjunction with the compensation measures was designed to do.

In effect, a wealth redistribution at the expense of the rate of increase of the overall financial pie. 

Usless Labor Party.


----------



## Julia (31 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Well they haven't been throwing money at big business, if you hadn't noticed.
> 
> Yet Labor were saying they would have bailed them out, I wonder where they would have found the money?



That wouldn't have been a problem for them.  They'd just have borrowed a bit more to bail out the failing enterprises.  No worries.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2014)

Julia said:


> That wouldn't have been a problem for them.  They'd just have borrowed a bit more to bail out the failing enterprises.  No worries.




Yes Julia, then try to dream up new taxes, to pay for another stupid policy decission that sends them further in debt. 
It is amazing how people try to defend Labors absolute and obvious incompetence.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> It is amazing how people try to defend Labors absolute and obvious incompetence.




Yes, some of the things Labor did were dumb, like spending the mining tax before they received it. But it's now pointless discussing Labor because they are not in government any more. That some people continue to fixate on Labor indicates that they don't really have a lot of ideas on the way forward.


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, some of the things Labor did were dumb, like spending the mining tax before they received it. But it's now pointless discussing Labor because they are not in government any more. That some people continue to fixate on Labor indicates that they don't really have a lot of ideas on the way forward.



Past performance is the best indicator of future trend.

Usless Labor Party.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Usless Labor Party.




Maybe they can spell though


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe they can spell though



Useless Labor Party.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Useless Labor Party.




That's better


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, some of the things Labor did were dumb, like spending the mining tax before they received it. But it's now pointless discussing Labor because they are not in government any more. That some people continue to fixate on Labor indicates that they don't really have a lot of ideas on the way forward.




I agree, but it is equally pointless to think the coalition, or anyone else, will have a silver bullet to fix up the debt problem.
Why I talk about Labor and the debt, is due to them completely divorcing any responsibility for it.
Shorten fronts up, and speaks about the upcoming budget cuts as though they are just some Government initiative.
To me it shows a complete lack of decency, on his part, thinking I'm dumb enough to swallow his crap.
He needs to grow a pair and start and redefine Labor and its direction, not stand there like an idiot and say "whats the problem, why is Joe going to tax more".
How dumb does he think the electorate is? Well he was a union official, so that could cloud his judgement.
It really is beyond the pale. To me he isn't helping Labor, he is making Abbott look better.
Bill won't last long IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Why I talk about Labor and the debt, is due to them completely divorcing any responsibility for it.
> Shorten fronts up, and speaks about the upcoming budget cuts as though they are just some Government initiative.




At least Labor did have a debt ceiling, which of course they ignored, but alarm bells went off when it was exceeded. 

Is it responsible for the LNP to effectively have no limit on how much they can borrow ? They gave the impression that they would be cutting debt straight away, but abolishing the ceiling seems an admission of defeat.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> At least Labor did have a debt ceiling, which of course they ignored, but alarm bells went off when it was exceeded.



In other words it was useless under Labor in any case.

You know the score.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> In other words it was useless under Labor in any case.
> 
> You know the score.




No it wasn't useless because they had to at least wear the embarrassment of having to raise the limit.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> No it wasn't useless because they had to at least wear the embarrassment of having to raise the limit.



To Labor, it's not an embarrassment.

The problem is we all have to live with the consequences.



> THE $16.2 billion Building the Education Revolution scheme, one of the signature policies of the Rudd and Gillard years, has been condemned as an international case study of legislative and *bureaucratic failure.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...study-of-failure/story-e6frg6n6-1226870368714

ULP.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> At least Labor did have a debt ceiling, which of course they ignored, but alarm bells went off when it was exceeded.
> 
> Is it responsible for the LNP to effectively have no limit on how much they can borrow ? They gave the impression that they would be cutting debt straight away, but abolishing the ceiling seems an admission of defeat.




I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from.
The incoming Government, still has to honour the outgoing Governments obligations, otherwise the economy stalls.
The Government had a self imposed debt ceiling, that they were going to go through, the incoming Government inherits the credit card.
How in hells name, can anyone turn around, an out of control debt binge in six months?
Obviously the enormity of the issue is beyond you, I'm not being antagonistic, just can't understand where you think the money would come from.
It took Labor six years to go from $0 debt to $300billion, it will take 10 years to get it down to $0.:1zhelp: 

That is unless Labor get in and blow it out again.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2014)

sptrawler said:


> I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from.
> The incoming Government, still has to honour the outgoing Governments obligations, otherwise the economy stalls.
> The Government had a self imposed debt ceiling, that they were going to go through, the incoming Government inherits the credit card.
> How in hells name, can anyone turn around, an out of control debt binge in six months?
> ...




Turn it around in six months ? Where did I ever say that ? What you are doing is verballing me, and creating straw men, and you are also providing an excuse for the current government not to tell us their plan for how they are going to pay off the debt which they promised to do. 

The LNP signed up to Gonski for 4 years, they signed up to the NDIS, they want a PPL, they are throwing away the revenue of the carbon tax and mining tax and are trying to make us believe they have a plan to pay back debt

 If this debt crisis was so big, why didn't they have the guts to say we can't afford the NDIS or Gonski BEFORE the election ? If Labor is useless, then the LNP are either outright liars about the severity of the deficit, or just plain incompetent in throwing money into these areas when we can't afford it.


----------



## noco (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> To Labor, it's not an embarrassment.
> 
> The problem is we all have to live with the consequences.
> 
> ...



The fact of the matter is Doc, it was unfortunate we had to have an extra 3 years of hard Labor from 2010 to 2013.

The other fact is the one I was trying send home a message on my thread ..."Communism is not dead and buried".

Gillard was a member of the Fabian Society, a communist off shoot, and she still was as Prime Minister...she had a sinister intent to bring down the economy of Australia which is the trait of communism...She did it by borrowing in excess, spending in excess on stupid projects in the guise of having to do it because of the GFC...it worked in very well for her resulting in what we have today.
The end result would have been to nationalize all industry, mining and agriculture to be controlled by the state....the far socialist left do not believe in free enterprise and today we can see the results of her effort.

Oh yes the pain is now about to begin and the coalition will have to fix the problem that has been created....How foolish our voters were in 2010.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2014)

noco said:


> Gillard was a member of the Fabian Society, a communist off shoot, and she still was as Prime Minister...she had a sinister intent to bring down the economy of Australia which is the trait of communism...
> 
> 
> .




Come on now, Just because she has red hair


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, some of the things Labor did were dumb, like spending the mining tax before they received it. But it's now pointless discussing Labor because they are not in government any more. That some people continue to fixate on Labor indicates that they don't really have a lot of ideas on the way forward.




Yes well said, the need to bump an 8 year old thread to lay the boot into a party that is now on the rebuild in opposition is rather mundane.  I might understand if the criticism was from swinging voters but many of those replying in this thread would have to be considered to have a strong political predisposition and wouldn't really ever consider voting for the Labor party anyway.  Let's not forget we require an opposition for a strong democracy.
 Perhaps their efforts should be more concentrated on the Paid Parental leave scheme and the 3.2 billion waste that is direct action and keeping the current government accountable.


----------



## noco (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> Yes well said, the need to bump an 8 year old thread to lay the boot into a party that is now on the rebuild in opposition is rather mundane.  I might understand if the criticism was from swinging voters but many of those replying in this thread would have to be considered to have a strong political predisposition and wouldn't really ever consider voting for the Labor party anyway.  Let's not forget we require an opposition for a strong democracy.
> Perhaps their efforts should be more concentrated on the Paid Parental leave scheme and the 3.2 billion waste that is direct action and keeping the current government accountable.




And don't forget to get rid of the useless Mining and carbon tax...you know the carbon tax Gillard said would never happen...don't forget Rudd said he would scarp the carbon tax before the 2013 election....you blokes have very short memories.


----------



## noco (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> Yes well said, the need to bump an 8 year old thread to lay the boot into a party that is now on the rebuild in opposition is rather mundane.  I might understand if the criticism was from swinging voters but many of those replying in this thread would have to be considered to have a strong political predisposition and wouldn't really ever consider voting for the Labor party anyway.  Let's not forget we require an opposition for a strong democracy.
> Perhaps their efforts should be more concentrated on the Paid Parental leave scheme and the 3.2 billion waste that is direct action and keeping the current government accountable.




And don't forget to get rid of the useless Mining and carbon tax...you know the carbon tax Gillard said would never happen...don't forget Rudd said he would scarp the carbon tax before the 2013 election....you blokes have very short memories.


----------



## noco (1 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Come on now, Just because she has red hair




What has the red hair got to do with her...it was dyed anyway...it is what was under the red hair that matters and it was evil.
It certainly was not in the interest of our nation.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> Yes well said, the need to bump an 8 year old thread to lay the boot into a party that is now on the rebuild in opposition is rather mundane.



Labor's time in office demonstrated great foresight by the thread author.

ULP.


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

noco said:


> And don't forget to get rid of the useless Mining and carbon tax...you know the carbon tax Gillard said would never happen...don't forget Rudd said he would scarp the carbon tax before the 2013 election....you blokes have very short memories.




If Tony wasn't going to implement such an inept policy to replace the carbon tax with then I would agree that Labor should vote to scrap it, all though I believe the coalition wouldn't if they were in opposition.  The coalition rightly or wrongly certainly made the governments life as difficult as possible while in opposition and it seems Labor are attempting to do the same.  We will find out next week how long that can last with the balance of the senate up for grabs.  You must have too much time on your hands to bump 8 year old threads back up.


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> Labor's time in office demonstrated great foresight by the thread author.
> 
> ULP.




How about we see how the current government handles a difficult economic period, the Howard government was never tested by anything similar (the dot com crash didn't come close).


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> How about we see how the current government handles a difficult economic period, the Howard government was never tested by anything similar (the dot com crash didn't come close).



The Howard Government had to deal with the hangover of Labor Debt but not to the same extent as now, either in nominal or real terms.


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Howard Government had to deal with the hangover of Labor Debt but not to the same extent as now, either in nominal or real terms.




And as discussed many times they dealt with that by selling many government assets which were largely responsible for the strong financial position Howard left us in.  Even though this government is already looking to sell Medibank Private there are few other government assets worth significant value that they can sell.  So this time round will be much tougher which is all the more reasons that the economy can't afford the paid parental scheme and direct action.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> And as discussed many times they dealt with that by selling many government assets which were largely responsible for the strong financial position Howard left us in.  Even though this government is already looking to sell Medibank Private there are few other government assets worth significant value that they can sell.  So this time round will be much tougher which is all the more reasons that the economy can't afford the paid parental scheme and direct action.



The economy couldn't afford Labor's overall waste and mismanagement from office which by comparison make the PPL and direct action look like small change. 

ULP.


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> The economy couldn't afford Labor's overall waste and mismanagement from office which by comparison make the PPL and direct action look like small change.
> 
> ULP.




Don't try and justify failed policy's because of the misgivings of the previous government, I thought you were above overlooking incompetence like that. 
The thread title should be called 'useless governments' but you'd need to take the eye patch off for that.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> Don't try and justify failed policy's because of the misgivings of the previous government, I thought you were above overlooking incompetence like that.



I live with the reality of comparison. 

We can't choose perfection on polling day, just relative merit.



overhang said:


> The thread title should be called 'useless governments' but you'd need to take the eye patch off for that.



There's nothing stopping anybody from starting a Useless Liberal Government. We can then say, in 8-years time, reflect on the outcomes of this government's policies.

A Useless Greens thread though would be utterly useless as Labor has no choice but to ultimately share their bed with them due to their chronically low primary vote.

ULP.


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> I live with the reality of comparison.
> 
> We can't choose perfection on polling day, just relative merit.
> 
> ...




I concur with all those points, all though there is no point as there is the Abbott government thread to discuss that and there is a Bill Shorten thread to discuss the opposition, this thread was only bumped to provoke.
We get it though you think the Labor party are useless, no need to post this every post.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> We get it though you think the Labor party are useless, no need to post this every post.



This thread isn't about me, it's about, well, you know.


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> This thread isn't about me, it's about, well, you know.




Then any post with negative connotations towards the Labor party would indicate you agree with the premise of this thread and there is no need to state the obvious.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> Then any post with negative connotations towards the Labor party would indicate you agree with the premise of this thread and there is no need to state the obvious.



I'll state what I like without any attempted censorship from yourself. It was a free country when I went to bed last night and I assume that's still the case this morning.

As I said above, this thread isn't about me. It's about the ULP.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2014)

Christine Milne addressing the National Press Club if anyone interested


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> I'll state what I like without any attempted censorship from yourself. It was a free country when I went to bed last night and I assume that's still the case this morning.
> 
> As I said above, this thread isn't about me. It's about the ULP.




It's not about censorship its about common courtesy but you have clearly stated you wish to troll so I'll just ignore your attempts to troll.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

overhang said:


> It's not about censorship its about common courtesy but you have clearly stated you wish to troll so I'll just ignore your attempts to troll.



Very good then.

I won't have to remind you further that this thread is not about me.


----------



## overhang (1 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> Very good then.
> 
> I won't have to remind you further that this thread is not about me.




No one said it was about you but as a contributor to this thread your attempts to troll and incite haven't gone unnoticed.


----------



## Joe Blow (1 April 2014)

Gents, let's get back to discussing the topic at hand rather than provoking each other. It's not serving any purpose other than to derail the thread unnecessarily.

Thank you both in advance for your co-operation.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Christine Milne addressing the National Press Club if anyone interested



The questions she gets from the media are more like ones to a political commentator than a participant.

There's no serious scrutiny.


----------



## Julia (1 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> What you are doing is verballing me, and creating straw men, and you are also providing an excuse for the current government not to tell us their plan for how they are going to pay off the debt which they promised to do.



How about waiting for the May Budget before deciding the government is not going to outline how they intend to pay off the debt?

(This is where I'd love that "sigh" emoticon:  The Federal government is not the LNP.  The LNP only exists in Queensland.  Is it that much harder to type "The Coalition"?)   Hope you might be kind enough to indulge my pedantry on this Rumpole.



> The LNP signed up to Gonski for 4 years, they signed up to the NDIS,



That's a very reasonable point.  They knew both were popular with the electorate so didn't want to say "oh no, we just can't afford either of these" because so doing could have lost them the election.  They must have known they weren't affordable and are now trying to find a face saving way to escape.

They don't even have the excuse of potentially losing votes, however, with their PPL as there seem to be very few actually in favour of it.  It's a clear captain's pick and should be dumped.  Nothing wrong with Labor's PPL
if you must have any sort of parental leave scheme.  Personally I think it's time we stopped paying people to have babies.  Ditto subsidising child care.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2014)

Julia said:


> How about waiting for the May Budget before deciding the government is not going to outline how they intend to pay off the debt?




Fine by me. Maybe some should also be prepared to wait for a couple of years while Labor sorts itself out, rather than being obsessed with the past



> (This is where I'd love that "sigh" emoticon:  The Federal government is not the LNP.  The LNP only exists in Queensland.  Is it that much harder to type "The Coalition"?)   Hope you might be kind enough to indulge my pedantry on this Rumpole.




Oh, OK then. L N and P are fairly close on the keyboard whereas C O A L I T I O N are all over the place. 




> Personally I think it's time we stopped paying people to have babies.  Ditto subsidising child care.




I completely agree. Alternatively, give tax rebates instead of  handouts for family related payments that benefit those contributing to the tax system more. Sounds tough, but if you phase it in over a number of years people will eventually get the idea that they have to share the responsibility for their own children.


----------



## noco (8 April 2014)

How many more did Rudd and Garrett send to the wall over the pink batts?

They wouldn't know how to run a chook raffle in a pub.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...sulation-program/story-fn59niix-1226877720443


----------



## drsmith (8 April 2014)

noco said:


> How many more did Rudd and Garrett send to the wall over the pink batts?
> 
> They wouldn't know how to run a chook raffle in a pub.
> 
> ...



Some essential viewing next week.

Kevin Rudd, Peter Garrett and Mark Arbib will appear at the Royal Commission and that will be streamed live.


----------



## noco (9 April 2014)

Labor seems to be stuck in a rut and totally controlled by the unions....they are all to be living in the past century when Labor was formed under a tree in Barcaldine.
....their thinking remains the same today and have gone too far to the left with socialistic influence form the Greens and the communist dominated unions.....this infiltration took place in the 50's and 60's and remains with the Party today.

From Dennis Shannahan 

 what does have to happen to the Labor Party to convince its parliamentary leaders they are in trouble and have to change?

It’s as if Labor’s worst result on record in Western Australia is some bolt out of the blue that is now the excuse for internal ALP reform and policy reappraisal.

That the WA Greens are on parity with the ALP in the Senate is not a revelation, it’s the predictable result at the end of a long line of disasters.

Indeed, Labor won only one seat in the Senate in Western Australia on September 7 last year when the ALP was thrown out of government.

It’s only because Kevin Rudd convinced Labor and the public that because the thumping loss wasn’t as bad as it could have been that there has been a lack any real moves towards reform or change within the ALP.

In Rudd’s own seat Labor lost ground at the by-election and since then Labor lost Tasmania and barely held on in South Australia. What’s the surprise about the West Australian Senate election re-run?

Labor has been too slow to accept reality and start the hard work of changing internally and looking afresh at its policies.

To his enduring credit Labor elder John Faulkner has spoken out publicly against the corruption in Labor ranks.

He has acknowledged that the corruption in NSW is not a “few bad apples” but the result of a culture dominated by factional war lords and union bosses.

With a long history of fighting corruption and urging reform he has again called for Labor to become relevant and vital. Policy changes and recognition of defeat must follow.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-in-big-trouble/story-e6frg75f-1226878217260


----------



## noco (9 April 2014)

To Jenny and John......if at first you don't succeed, try a gun.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/memo_to_labor_its_the_policies_stupid/


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2014)

The Australian's Chris Kenny summarises Labor's current policy platform as follows,



> As the situation now stands, Labor is set to go to the next election promising to reimpose a carbon tax and mining tax, restart the people-smugglers’ business model and reopen the purse strings to increase the budget deficit.




Yes, it's a pretty silly platform.

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/chriskenny/


----------



## noco (9 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Australian's Chris Kenny summarises Labor's current policy platform as follows,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doc, it will history repeating itself all over again........Labor racks up a big debt on the Aussie credit card the Liberals have to pay it back.

If the coalition stay in Government for another two terms and get back into surplus, the stupid naive and younger generation will say it is time for a change and the cycle begins all over again.

I know I keep harping on the Labor/Green socialist ideology, but it is always their aim to ruin the economy of Australia in order to nationalize mining, banks, industry and manufacturing ( or what is left of it)....open the gates again to refugees and stir up racial hatred, control the media and freedom of speech......they want everything to be controlled by the state.

Wait for Sydboy and Ifocus to hit this one


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2014)

Fuhrer Carr,



> Mr Carr repeatedly remarks on the “the elite of the flat-stomached”, whose members include Barack Obama, CIA boss David Petraeus, Prince Charles and - it seems - himself.
> 
> However, sometimes his minions go too far to accommodate him.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...gn-ministers-diva-demands-20140409-zqspi.html


----------



## noco (10 April 2014)

Labor have made a mess of our country and the economy, they can't agree  amongst themselves on their internal policies, Carr is critical of Gillard  and they still believe they can win voters back to go through all it all again....they must be joking???

They just cannot help themselves. 



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...election-reforms/story-fn59noo3-1226879397297


----------



## Knobby22 (10 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> Fuhrer Carr,
> 
> ]




Yea, it's funny isn't it, Dr Smith
He was a lousy Premier and I said at the time it was a bad decision to make him Foreign Minister.

He actually reminds me a lot of Rudd. Completely convinced he has an intellect and vision far above everyone including his fellows. 

Self delusion is a terrible thing and yet the same self belief must also convince the general populace and in this case many of the Labor politicians also or they would never get into the positions they do.


----------



## drsmith (10 April 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, it's funny isn't it, Dr Smith
> He was a lousy Premier and I said at the time it was a bad decision to make him Foreign Minister.
> 
> He actually reminds me a lot of Rudd. Completely convinced he has an intellect and vision far above everyone including his fellows.
> ...



I'd suggest that one has to have a very strong sense of self belief to survive the ups and downs of being a senior politician but at that level, there's obviously a very fine line between self belief and self delusion.


----------



## drsmith (10 April 2014)

The current online front page of the SMH's federal political section is worth bottling.

Top 5 stories are as follows,



> 1) Union calls on Bullock to resign from Senate position
> 
> 2) Jewish leaders hit back at Bob Carr
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics


----------



## dutchie (11 April 2014)

The stark difference between Labor and the Coalition:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/

"How former foreign minister Bob Carr travelled:

    In other extracts already dubbed “Bridget Carr’s Diary”, the exercised-obsessed former NSW premier ...  laments travelling in business class during a trans-Atlantic flight.

    “Business class. No edible food. No airline pyjamas,” Mr Carr notes. “I lie in my tailored suit.” ...

    On another flight, he was particularly savage: “Eating plastic ”” no ceramic ”” food, passengers lying in cribs, packed in business class, a design that owes a lot to the trans-Atlantic slave trade ...” Occasionally an airline would upgrade Mr Carr and wife Helena, but even this good fortune had a gloomy response.

    “Pathetic that the public service rules reduce me to that, an upgrade for a middle-power foreign minister,” he wrote…

    A Singapore Airlines executive responds to his complaint about first class entertainment: “Please accept my sincere apology if any part of our first class in-flight offering fell below your expectations. Specifically, I have taken note of the lack of English subtitles for the Wagner opera Siegfried.”

How Prime Minister Tony Abbott travels:


    Mr Abbott and his family travelled economy on a flight from Sydney to Paris, which normally takes a gruelling 24 hours in total. His office did not apparently publicise his decision, but his presence at the back of the plane emerged after a fellow passenger broadcast the news on social media…

    Mr Abbott, wearing a blue polo shirt, was travelling with his wife and two younger daughters during the Christmas holidays to Paris to spend a week with his eldest daughter, Louise, who is living in Switzerland. He reportedly rejected an offer of an upgrade."


_*Labor party politicians, members of the Hypocrite and Whankers Union!*_


----------



## noco (12 April 2014)

Is it any wonder the Labor Party only won one seat in the recent WA senate election.

It will take a strong leader to pull the Labor Party back from the brink of ruin, but while they still have Bill Shorten running the show with a union mentality, they will continue to go backwards.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rty-needs-reform/story-fnihsr9v-1226881324453


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

Thanks to all our Green comrades and the unions, we now have workers missing out on work at restaurants, hotels and motels on weekends and holidays......They find it more economical to close their doors rather than pay someone to wash dishes at $50 per hour....Can you blame them.......Greedy unions.

BETTER TO HAVE A HALF A LOAF OF BREAD THAN NONE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ory-fnihsrf2-1226889408683?from=trendinglinks


----------



## noco (20 April 2014)

Another dud Labor project raises its ugly head with affordable housing....more wasted  taxpayers money along with so many other failed projects by Labor.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/more_labor_waste/


----------



## Calliope (22 April 2014)

I watched Bill Shorten on 7.30 tonight. He wiil be trying to convince the old union die-hards that the Labor Party needs to be more like the Liberal party if they ever want to regain office. As a symbol of his change of heart he was wearing the Liberal blue tie.


----------



## Julia (22 April 2014)

He was also very unconvincing imo.  Reminded me of someone deep underwater desperately trying to get to the surface but with no idea how to do it.


----------



## noco (22 April 2014)

Julia said:


> He was also very unconvincing imo.  Reminded me of someone deep underwater desperately trying to get to the surface but with no idea how to do it.




You should have heard him on Richo + Jones on Foxtel at 8 pm ch 601......Jones made mince meat of him.


----------



## noco (22 April 2014)

Shorten says he wants to break away from the unions....it will never happen.....Shorten has run into a brick wall already with the Queensland Shadow Treasurer almost telling him to get nicked. 


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ithout_the_unions_what_is_labors_great_cause/


----------



## noco (22 April 2014)

noco said:


> Shorten says he wants to break away from the unions....it will never happen.....Shorten has run into a brick wall already with the Queensland Shadow Treasurer almost telling him to get nicked.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ithout_the_unions_what_is_labors_great_cause/






http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ties-with-unions/story-fnihsrf2-1226892332952


----------



## noco (23 April 2014)

noco said:


> Shorten says he wants to break away from the unions....it will never happen.....Shorten has run into a brick wall already with the Queensland Shadow Treasurer almost telling him to get nicked.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ithout_the_unions_what_is_labors_great_cause/




Shorten hits another brick wall.......he is going to need plenty of band aids or else he will bleed to death.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...actions-a-furphy/story-fnihslxi-1226892709698


----------



## noco (23 April 2014)

noco said:


> Shorten hits another brick wall.......he is going to need plenty of band aids or else he will bleed to death.
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...actions-a-furphy/story-fnihslxi-1226892709698




And another brick wall in Brisbane this time over preselection of s Senate candidate.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...abor-party-games/story-fnihsr9v-1226892745287


----------



## noco (24 April 2014)

The last 6 years of the Labor Government(2007 t0 2013) must have been really bad if Hawke and Keating say so.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...r_saying_then_what_hawke_and_keating_say_now/


----------



## noco (25 April 2014)

The internal brawling continues in the Labor Party with the unions hanging onto power......I cannot envisage Bill  Shorten lasting too much longer under such a ruckus. 




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...oss-tony-sheldon/story-fn59noo3-1226895443037


----------



## noco (26 April 2014)

Bill Shorten is all smoke and mirrors....He is certainly trying to put on a brave front, but even blind Freddy could see through him.

One of the first things he should do is give all his Shadow Ministers ( those ex useless union bosses)  a crash course in Economics......I mean, history shows Labor just does not know how to manage the economy.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...essons-for-labor/story-fn59niix-1226896476426


----------



## noco (3 May 2014)

noco said:


> Bill Shorten is all smoke and mirrors....He is certainly trying to put on a brave front, but even blind Freddy could see through him.
> 
> One of the first things he should do is give all his Shadow Ministers ( those ex useless union bosses)  a crash course in Economics......I mean, history shows Labor just does not know how to manage the economy.
> 
> ...




The CEO of David Jones hits out at the financial mess left by our comrades of the Green/Labor Party and Bull S!then has the audacity to whine, whinge and harp on about Abbott's broken promises..Bull Sh!ten is becoming like a cracked record.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/busines...ive-mark-mcinnes/story-fni0dcne-1226903679292


----------



## noco (5 May 2014)

Is Bill Shorten and his comrades doing what is in the best interest of of this nation of ours?

He still seems intent on pushing us further than the gurgler and in doing so is making it so much harder for our next generation.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...get-needs-fixing/story-fnj45fvb-1226905028303


----------



## noco (5 May 2014)

Now how many ASF members would like to make up a party to book a table at this special dinner with Bull Sh!tin....It will only cost $13,000 per table?...That is a table for 10 but one will be free and that being one of the Labor shadow Ministers....So dig deep guys, it will only cost you $1.444 each and after all it will be for a good cause...you might even get some Green beer.

Can I have a show of hands please?


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/di...-fundraising-arm/story-fni0fiyv-1226906349187


----------



## Julia (5 May 2014)

Couldn't we just accept that political parties engage in fund raising all the time and not make such an issue of it?  If it's advertised, open and transparent, I don't see anything wrong with it.  It is what it is.

The media, being precious as usual, are seeking to conflate a legitimate practice with all the corruption coming out of ICAC et al.  In their own interests, not in that of the country.


----------



## basilio (6 May 2014)

> special dinner with Bull Sh!tin.





> Bull S!then has the audacity




I think that trashing people/politicians like this is unacceptable Noco.  Could you please stick to criticizing what you believe he does.

Joe, Mods is this the way you want ASF to go ?


----------



## banco (6 May 2014)

basilio said:


> I think that trashing people/politicians like this is unacceptable Noco.  Could you please stick to criticizing what you believe he does.
> 
> Joe, Mods is this the way you want ASF to go ?




Toughen up princess.


----------



## basilio (6 May 2014)

> Toughen up princess.




Noco spouts reams of mindless, poisonous bile on ASF. Almost all of it trashes anything left of Genghis Khan.
When he runs out anything remotely intelligent to say  he reverts to puerile insults based on peoples names.

Because most of the remaining poster on ASF are also in rapture with  anything/anyone that trashes  Labour we now seem to allow the routine disfigurement of peoples names to abuse them before we even get to what they actually do.

Tough enough for you Banco ?  Should we  continue down this trail or  could we reconsider whether referring to Bill Shorten as Bill ****en is unnecessary and not in the interests of a reasonable discussion ?

Cheers


----------



## noco (6 May 2014)

basilio said:


> I think that trashing people/politicians like this is unacceptable Noco.  Could you please stick to criticizing what you believe he does.
> 
> Joe, Mods is this the way you want ASF to go ?





Ha boss, that was not my idea......that was from Darren Hinch on AM Agenda.....

I guess if you blokes can call Joe Hockey "SLOPPY JOE"  and Tony Abbott "TONY RABBIT", I guess it is ok to nick name others in the same fashion.

Loosen up fellows....what's in a name?....sorry if I have hurt your feelings and ruffled your feathers.


----------



## So_Cynical (6 May 2014)

Appropriate that this thread was started by idribble



> Started by idribble


----------



## basilio (6 May 2014)

noco said:


> Ha boss, that was not my idea......that was from Darren Hinch on AM Agenda.....
> 
> I guess if you blokes can call Joe Hockey "SLOPPY JOE"  and Tony Abbott "TONY RABBIT", I guess it is ok to nick name others in the same fashion.
> 
> Loosen up fellows....what's in a name?....sorry if I have hurt your feelings and ruffled your feathers.




So Noco you just copied someone elses nasty little jibe ?  Do you think theres maybe  a difference between "Sloppy Joe"  "Tony Rabbit" and Bill Sh!ten "?  ( By the way I'd hesitate to trash Liberal politicians names as just a routine sledge on the same grounds as I think the Bill Shorten trash is peurile and adds only nastiness to the discussion)

So it is worth dropping the sledge for the sake of  civility ?

Cheers


----------



## trainspotter (6 May 2014)

Julia said:


> Couldn't we just accept that political parties engage in fund raising all the time and not make such an issue of it?  If it's advertised, open and transparent, I don't see anything wrong with it.  It is what it is.
> 
> The media, being precious as usual, are seeking to conflate a legitimate practice with all the corruption coming out of ICAC et al.  In their own interests, not in that of the country.




It sells papers Julia. There has always been a gentlemen's agreement between donors and recipient parties that once government has been achieved that the largesse would flow back the other way ... this is called business. On the other hand if the donation was to go directly to the recipient and not into the parties coffers then this is called chicanery. 

I will leave with a joke to make it clear as to what happens when you donate to the wrong party.

For three years, the young *ALP member* took his vacations at a country Motel. He had an affair with the Motel owner's daughter. Looking forward to an exciting few days, he dragged his suitcase up the stairs of the motel, then stopped short. There sat his lover with an infant on her lap! "Why didn't you write when you learned you were pregnant?" he cried. "I would have rushed up here, we could have gotten married, and the child would have my name!" 

"Well," she said, "when my parents found out about my condition, we sat up all night talkin' and talkin' and we finally decided it would be better to have a bastard in the family than a Laborite."


----------



## Macquack (6 May 2014)

noco said:


> I guess if you blokes can call Joe Hockey "SLOPPY JOE"  and Tony Abbott "TONY RABBIT", I guess it is ok to nick name others in the same fashion.
> 
> Loosen up fellows....what's in a name?....sorry if I have hurt your feelings and ruffled your feathers.




I will take this as an opportune time to say what I have always thought "noco" meant - "no comprehension".

If you are offended, "loosen up".


----------



## wayneL (6 May 2014)

basilio said:


> So Noco you just copied someone elses nasty little jibe ?  Do you think theres maybe  a difference between "Sloppy Joe"  "Tony Rabbit" and Bill Sh!ten "?  ( By the way I'd hesitate to trash Liberal politicians names as just a routine sledge on the same grounds as I think the Bill Shorten trash is peurile and adds only nastiness to the discussion)
> 
> So it is worth dropping the sledge for the sake of  civility ?
> 
> Cheers




Is this the same basilio that refers to all folks who don't conform to the dystopian alarmist religious doctrine as "deniers"?


----------



## basilio (6 May 2014)

wayneL said:


> Is this the same basilio that refers to all folks who don't conform to the dystopian alarmist religious doctrine as "deniers"?




*Yep *- and particularly when they profess to being capable of reading and understanding the science behind climate changes.

When I was having a go at Noco I was challenging the trashing of a politicians name which, in the context used by anti Labour scribes, is intended to create a nasty association  *just with the persons name ie  Juliliar, Bill Sh!ten*
It's the type of derogatory insult used with  groups/people we want to put down.

Regarding  the use of "deniers". I'm totally over being understanding with you, Wayne,  or the overwhelming majority of people who attempt to dismiss what is happening with global warming as either "inconsequential" "not our fault" " or "it isn't happening".  There is now overwhelming evidence that demonstrates : 

1) What is happening will be far from inconsequential.
2) The probability that human action is the cause of current changes is extremely high and
3) Yes it really is happening. 

I can certainly understand and accept discussions on the extent of what will happen. But on all indications the question is a matter of whether we increase global temperatures by 2 Degree C,  4 or  6 plus. If that isn't the starting position on discussions the  person (IMO)  is  either simply ignorant, willfully ignorant or has an agenda that will not accept acknowledgment of evidence.

The word "deniers" reflects that statement. I use the same language for people who think the Apollo moon landing didn't happen, that Obama is not American, and that the world was created  6000 years ago.

Cheers


----------



## wayneL (6 May 2014)

Well done. I need say nothing


----------



## noco (9 May 2014)

Wayne Swan must be in complete denial.....He still believes we should be in surplus....did this prawn ever go to school.....He does not know how to use a calculator let alone his brain if he has one......he is unbelievable....and he will have the audacity to retire on $200,000 per year for not knowing what he was doing.....OMG.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...yne_swan_shows_exactly_why_were_in_this_mess/


----------



## noco (12 May 2014)

noco said:


> Wayne Swan must be in complete denial.....He still believes we should be in surplus....did this prawn ever go to school.....He does not know how to use a calculator let alone his brain if he has one......he is unbelievable....and he will have the audacity to retire on $200,000 per year for not knowing what he was doing.....OMG.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...yne_swan_shows_exactly_why_were_in_this_mess/




And now Shorten and Albo are in denial.......They are so narrow minded, I am sure they could see through a key hole with both eyes.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...-duty-to-save-us/story-fni0ffxg-1226913511211


----------



## trainspotter (12 May 2014)

Still in the big river in Egypt:-



> What makes this worse is that Shorten is kicking Abbott for trying to fix the disaster created by Labor.
> Left a surplus, and gifted our greatest mining boom, the Rudd and Gillard governments still piled up $190 billion of deficits in just five years.
> 
> They plunged into an orgy of spending so carelessly, it’s criminal.
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/national/wak...get-needs-fixing/story-e6frfkp9-1226905028303


----------



## CanOz (12 May 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Still in the big river in Egypt:-
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/wak...get-needs-fixing/story-e6frfkp9-1226905028303




The thing is, if you ask almost anyone in the big earner bracket, they'll be happy to help get the country back on track, promises or not they know it needs to be done. Its the middle income earners that can't seem to do the math...


----------



## trainspotter (12 May 2014)

Well Abbott could have taxed the living sh1te out of everyone but instead it looks like they are going to cut their own in house spending which IMO is a good thing. When your own finance department cannot tell you how many agencies are on the government payroll you are in serious trouble. 

More than happy to my share of tax but not for it to be wasted on useless programmes that bring no real worth into the economy. Who made all the money from the $900 handouts? Ermmmm ... Harvey Norman that's who as everyone rushed out and bought a BIG TV !!


----------



## CanOz (12 May 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Well Abbott could have taxed the living sh1te out of everyone but instead it looks like they are going to cut their own in house spending which IMO is a good thing. When your own finance department cannot tell you how many agencies are on the government payroll you are in serious trouble.
> 
> More than happy to my share of tax but not for it to be wasted on useless programmes that bring no real worth into the economy. Who made all the money from the $900 handouts? Ermmmm ... Harvey Norman that's who as everyone rushed out and bought a BIG TV !!




Exactly, my thoughts too. My worry is that even if the tax payers start to seriously pay down the debt, labor gets back in and does the same thing again...:1zhelp:

One thing i will say for the liberals, they can't be accused of taking the populist route....


----------



## noco (17 May 2014)

CanOz said:


> Exactly, my thoughts too. My worry is that even if the tax payers start to seriously pay down the debt, labor gets back in and does the same thing again...:1zhelp:
> 
> One thing i will say for the liberals, they can't be accused of taking the populist route....




But the Greens and the comrades of the Greens ( the Labor party) say what is the problem?....everything is rosy...... Our debt and spending is growing faster than any of  the 17 richest countries in the world thanks to Labor.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ter-than-europes/story-fn59niix-1226920839651


----------



## noco (24 May 2014)

What a cad this Bill Shorten is.....he must say NO, NO, NO to everything that can get this country of ours back on its feet again but refuses to come up with some alternative......we have to wait until 2016......he probably has no intelligent idea what to do except borrow $100,000,000 each day to pay for more of the usual hare brain schemes we observed 2007/2013.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...ght-budget-bills/story-fni0xqrb-1226929173335


----------



## noco (25 May 2014)

noco said:


> What a cad this Bill Shorten is.....he must say NO, NO, NO to everything that can get this country of ours back on its feet again but refuses to come up with some alternative......we have to wait until 2016......he probably has no intelligent idea what to do except borrow $100,000,000 each day to pay for more of the usual hare brain schemes we observed 2007/2013.
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...ght-budget-bills/story-fni0xqrb-1226929173335




Shorten is full of rhetoric and no substance......just an obstructionist to the improvement of our way of life.....He obviously does not want to see the Coalition succeed in bringing the economy back into line.

He could not care less about the national interest, if he did he would be offering some alternatives as a respectable opposition should......But he does not have the brains to offer the way out of the mess his party has left. 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...-the-alternative/story-fni0ffxg-1226930892299


----------



## sptrawler (25 May 2014)

noco said:


> Shorten is full of rhetoric and no substance......just an obstructionist to the improvement of our way of life.....He obviously does not want to see the Coalition succeed in bringing the economy back into line.
> 
> He could not care less about the national interest, if he did he would be offering some alternatives as a respectable opposition should......But he does not have the brains to offer the way out of the mess his party has left.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...-the-alternative/story-fni0ffxg-1226930892299




Don't worry noco, whatever Labor do is fine. 
How much of a backlash was there whe Labor lifted the retirement age from 65 to 67, not a murmur.

Now there are sections of the media, screaming that Abbott is lifting the retirement age from 65 to 70. 
Not only are they liars, why weren't they so indignant when Labor raised the pension age. Morons


----------



## noco (26 May 2014)

For those who missed the Bolt report, have a listen........

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-the-alternative/story-fnihsr9v-1226931590844


----------



## Julia (26 May 2014)

noco said:


> For those who missed the Bolt report,



Or perhaps those who watched it once and vowed to never again waste half an hour of their time......


----------



## noco (27 May 2014)

Julia said:


> Or perhaps those who watched it once and vowed to never again waste half an hour of their time......





Julia, it is now one hour and has a higher rating than Insiders......Labor politicians have had numerous invitations to appear on the Bolt Show but non have the courage.....they never knock back going on Insiders though.


----------



## Macquack (27 May 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Don't worry noco, whatever Labor do is fine.
> How much of a backlash was there whe *Labor lifted the retirement age from 65 to 67*, not a murmur.
> 
> Now there are sections of the media, screaming that Abbott is lifting the retirement age from 65 to 70.
> Not only are they liars, why weren't they so indignant when Labor raised the pension age. Morons




Really, is that an excuse to raise the retirement age to 70 years of age? Of course it is not. 

Stop blaming the bloody Labor party for every negative things that the Abbott Liberal Party is doing.


----------



## Julia (27 May 2014)

Just on the title of this thread, the Labor Party are showing themselves to be anything but useless at present, in a political sense.

They have masterfully put forward to the electorate huge misinformation re "cuts to pensions, benefits" in such a convincing fashion, (magically turning future freeze on rises in these payments or change to cpi indexation into actual cuts to present payment levels) ably abetted by Fairfax, and to a lesser extent the ABC, and the government seems powerless to provide a counter to the outrage Labor has so cleverly drummed up.

The sad thing is that if Labor/The Greens/PUP do block most of the government's Budget, continue to persuade the already ill informed electorate that they are about to have their income almost completely taken from them, then a few years down the track with debt blowing out further every year, and the interest bill becoming way more than the current $1 million per month, then there really will be something for the electorate to worry about.


----------



## noco (27 May 2014)

Macquack said:


> Really, is that an excuse to raise the retirement age to 70 years of age? Of course it is not.
> 
> Stop blaming the bloody Labor party for every negative things that the Abbott Liberal Party is doing.




 I watched Richo and Jones on 601 Foxtel to night and they interviewed Scott Morrison..........poor old Richo did not know which way to turn....Jones and Morrison had him tied up in knots regarding the Labor Party and in the end Richo had to concede, Labor was lying on many issues in the budget....no mention was made about the retirement age....but there is one thing I CAN  tell you, I was a Plumber and Drainer in the 40's and 50's when there were no mechanical means of digging drains....we had several laborers, two who were in their early 70's who would use  a pick and shovel all day....even go down 8' and all you could see was the dirt coming out of the trench.

I worked several years past that and I can tell you it does not do you any harm, in fact it will help one to stay alive......So, I am afraid I cannot accept that a majority of people would not be able to do some kind of work up until they were 70........when you look at the fact that people are now living longer due to modern medical science and stem cell research, future governments will find it most difficult to maintain the finances needed for aged welfare....

So I do not see what the fuss is all about lifting the retirement age to 70.

Work hard and live longer if you are capable.


----------



## explod (28 May 2014)

I worked as a labourer building schools in the early 60s noco.

A digger and two men can prepare a site in a day now with automation which once would have taken 10 men a week.

Since the population has also increased many times, TELL ME against these sums,

Where are the jobs?


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## SirRumpole (28 May 2014)

noco said:


> ... future governments will find it most difficult to maintain the finances needed for aged welfare....




Unlike most governments in the OECD , Australia does not levy a social security tax, so we are not heavily taxed as far as the rest of the world goes. Certainly there is an aging population demographic that needs to be accounted for.

People now work full time until the day they retire, then ...nothing. What about more flexibility, so they can gradually reduce their working hours over say the last three years and job share with their successors ?

That would allow time for training and mentoring upcoming staff, as well as alleviating the symptoms of wear and tear on the body and mind of advancing age.


----------



## Judd (28 May 2014)

explod said:


> I worked as a labourer building schools in the early 60s noco.
> 
> *A digger and two men can prepare a site in a day now with automation which once would have taken 10 men a week.*
> 
> ...




Yes, I noticed that when I had some extensive work done on my home.  Builder rolled up with one of those mini-diggers along with various attachments.  Post holes dug, trench dug, concrete ripped out, the lot.  Only him and one other.  Told me in the past he would have up to five workers on site but now he only needs one reliable worker and doesn't have to put up with dropkicks who have a hangover.  On only one day was there an additional person and that was to assist with lifting and fitting roof panels over the deck.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 May 2014)

Julia said:


> They have masterfully put forward to the electorate huge misinformation re "cuts to pensions, benefits" in such a convincing fashion, (magically turning future freeze on rises in these payments or change to cpi indexation into actual cuts to present payment levels) ably abetted by Fairfax, and to a lesser extent the ABC, and the government seems powerless to provide a counter to the outrage Labor has so cleverly drummed up.




If proposed indexation or freezing of payments or pensions results in pensioners receiving less than they would on current arrangements, then that is actually a CUT in pensions. Under an Abbott government, pensioners would receive LESS over time than they would under existing arrangements.

It's perfectly correct to say that these changes amount to a cut in pensions, there is no 'misinformation'.


----------



## noco (28 May 2014)

explod said:


> I worked as a labourer building schools in the early 60s noco.
> 
> A digger and two men can prepare a site in a day now with automation which once would have taken 10 men a week.
> 
> ...




Ah yes, mechanization is a wonderful thing and it can save lots of time and cost....I have to agree with you on that point.

WHERE ARE THE JOBS?

I am pleased you raised that subject..

Firstly you do not have to rely on an employer to give you a job.....to pay you a wage every fortnight.....there is plenty of unskilled work around if you care to go looking for it.

If you are prepared to leave the comfort of your home for a few weeks at a time there are plenty of opportunities in the fruit and vegetable industry...Farmers either have to rely on back packers or bring in workers  from overseas......you will be able work what ever hours you want and be paid for the amount of work you do....that is the harder you work the more you will get...you will be gathering Vitamin D to strengthen your bones and exercising your body instead of sitting in front of the TV all day twiddling your thumbs and relying upon the Government to feed you for doing nothing. 

Now if you do not want to leave the comfort of your home and you have a motor mower, there are lots of opportunities around with a simple add in the local paper.

There are several distributor agencies, like Home Care, around who are always looking for people  to sell their products....you drop off a catalogue, pick it up the following week with an order...no hard selling....you are paid a commission.....you are out in the Sun and exercising your body at the same time.

If you are disabled and computer literate, you will find plenty of opportunities on the net.

So there go......problem solved......work is there so all you have to do is find it....very simple.....you just have to use your brain and not your mouth.

Anything else I can help you with, just go to my PM.


----------



## Judd (28 May 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If proposed indexation or freezing of payments or pensions results in pensioners receiving less than they would on current arrangements, then that is actually a CUT in pensions. Under an Abbott government, pensioners would receive LESS over time than they would under existing arrangements.
> 
> It's perfectly correct to say that these changes amount to a cut in pensions, there is no 'misinformation'.




1+.  While it may disappear from the ABS web-site, this is the current information regarding the difference between the CPI and Selected Living Cost Indexes:



> Households have been categorised based on the principal source of household income, derived from the 2009–10 Household Expenditure Survey (HES). The four household types in scope of the HES account for just over 90% of Australian households. The four household types that have been identified as being appropriate for the construction of these indexes, are:
> 
> Employee households (i.e. those households whose principal source of income is from wages and salaries);
> Age pensioner households (i.e. those households whose principal source of income is the age pension or veterans affairs pension);
> ...




And the actual differences are reflected in this current table so over time there will be a diminution if the purchasing value of the pension with is effectively a cut.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6467.0

Don't know how to insert a table so apologies for a simple link.

The Government at one stage also published the Treasury Measure of Underlying Inflation in order to smooth out seasonal variations and a number of payments were based on this.  However, it was done away with a few years ago because, yep, the trend over time was greater than the CPI itself.  Gotta love stats.


----------



## Julia (28 May 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If proposed indexation or freezing of payments or pensions results in pensioners receiving less than they would on current arrangements, then that is actually a CUT in pensions. Under an Abbott government, pensioners would receive LESS over time than they would under existing arrangements.
> 
> It's perfectly correct to say that these changes amount to a cut in pensions, there is no 'misinformation'.




We'll have to just disagree on this.  Particularly in the context of what many pensioners believe to be happening which is that the amount currently being received is going to be reduced.  Listen to a few radio talk back programs and you'll get it.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 May 2014)

Julia said:


> We'll have to just disagree on this.  Particularly in the context of what many pensioners believe to be happening which is that the amount currently being received is going to be reduced.  Listen to a few radio talk back programs and you'll get it.




Some pensioners may be confused, but you can hardly blame the Labor party for that. They are not there to defend the Coalition's policies, and the word 'cuts' is valid in real terms.

As you have rightly pointed out before, it's up to the Coalition to explain their policies. The fact that they are having difficulty doing that, up to this point at least, may lead one to believe that their policies really are as unfair as the Opposition says they are.

Oh, PS,

Just a question on  a previous post of yours, you said the interest bill on our debt was a million dollars a month. Joe Hockey said in Parliament that it's a billion a month. Was he wrong ?

<smile>


----------



## Julia (28 May 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh, PS,
> 
> Just a question on  a previous post of yours, you said the interest bill on our debt was a million dollars a month. Joe Hockey said in Parliament that it's a billion a month. Was he wrong ?
> 
> <smile>



Indeed it should have been a billion per month, Rumpole.  I am indebted to you for the correction.


----------



## noco (28 May 2014)

Bill Shorten and all Labor MPs could not give a hoot about the National interest....It is confrontation for the sake of confrontation.

They obviously do not want the Abbott government to succeed in bring our finances under control......they are in complete denial of how serious the situation is......Wake up Labor.....your country needs you to do the right thing. 



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/not_savage_and_no_surprise/


----------



## noco (28 May 2014)

Labors vile attack on the budget, on Abbott and Abbott's family is beginning to falter....people are starting to wake up to the incessant  lies and misrepresentation and in particular their insidious rambling about cuts to aged pensions.    


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/is_labors_attack_faltering/


----------



## banco (28 May 2014)

Julia said:


> We'll have to just disagree on this.  Particularly in the context of what many pensioners believe to be happening which is that the amount currently being received is going to be reduced.  Listen to a few radio talk back programs and you'll get it.




Not labor's fault the pensioners can't find time to look up the details (what else have they got to do all day anyway?).


----------



## Julia (28 May 2014)

banco said:


> Not labor's fault the pensioners can't find time to look up the details (what else have they got to do all day anyway?).



How condescending of you, banco.  Believe it or not, many pensioners don't even have an internet connection.
Neither do some of them have the expectation that they should be required not to take at face value what the media and the Labor Party tells them.

A further example of this misinformation occurred today courtesy Doug Cameron who has apparently told pensioners that they will 'no longer be receiving the Seniors Supplement'.

The reality is that pensioners have never received the Seniors Supplement.  It is a payment designed to co-exist with the Commonwealth Seniors Health Card issued to self funded retirees with income not more than $50,000, and to go toward helping pay for utilities.

So tell me how that is not attempting to manipulate the fears of pensioners quite dishonestly.
PS  Confirmation of the above can be found on the ABC website.  Look up today's radio news.
I'm sure you, unlike some pensioners, will have the capacity to check.


----------



## sydboy007 (29 May 2014)

Julia said:


> How condescending of you, banco.  Believe it or not, many pensioners don't even have an internet connection.
> Neither do some of them have the expectation that they should be required not to take at face value what the media and the Labor Party tells them.
> 
> A further example of this misinformation occurred today courtesy Doug Cameron who has apparently told pensioners that they will 'no longer be receiving the Seniors Supplement'.
> ...




So were you as up in arms when Abbott was telling pensioners they'd be rooned by the carbton tax?

We're you as scathing of his tabling of a pensioners electricity bill in parliament claiming that that the bill had increased 70% due to the "carbon tax", when in fact she had nearly doubled her energy consumption and prices had just went through their annual increase of which the carbon tax was < 10% of the increase?  

I remember on one of the stupid post nightly news tv shows where the pensioner was so scared he wouldn't be able to afford his electricity bills that he was going to bed at sundown to conserve power.  How many more pensioners out there had the same fears purely due to Abbotts fear-mongering??

While I abhor anyone using false fears to try and manipulate public opinion, Abbott certainly wrote the rule book while in opposition on how to effectively do it.

I also seem to remember Abbott claiming that BHP decided against the olympic dam expansion was due to the carbon tax and resource tax, even though BHP had cited neither in why they had decided against the expansion.  I also recently read an article that he's told the SA Govt that once these taxes are removed that BHP is likely to go ahead with the OD expansion which would help with the loss of the car industry, once again against what BHP has recently said.

Now either Abbott is outright lying, or he is so ideologically narrow minded he actually believes in an alternative reality.


----------



## Julia (29 May 2014)

Syd, I will never understand why, when someone makes a criticism of the behaviour of one side of politics, it is apparently assumed that critic has never felt similarly critical toward the 'other side'.

If you were ever to bother looking through many of my posts over many years, you'd find plenty of criticism of all sides, the present government very much included.


----------



## sydboy007 (29 May 2014)

Julia said:


> Syd, I will never understand why, when someone makes a criticism of the behaviour of one side of politics, it is apparently assumed that critic has never felt similarly critical toward the 'other side'.
> 
> If you were ever to bother looking through many of my posts over many years, you'd find plenty of criticism of all sides, the present government very much included.




When I highlighted Abbotts Energy Bill deceit / stuff up comments on this forum last year the response was along the lines of it's "small beer" and not of concern.  So you can understand why I feel there's a certain level of double standards on this forum, especially when Abbott had been arguing very strongly at that time about leaders requiring integrity and public trust.

So while you may be just as critical of Abbotts' fear mongering when he was in opposition, the majority on this forum only seem to see things as negative when it's Labor that's doing them.

Personally I think Labor would be smarter to allow some of the better ideas on getting the budget balanced through and let Abbott wear the downside.  Abbott would have been smart to have let Labor wear the changes to the statutory method for car FBT - $1.6B in extra revenue is better than attacking the poor as we have from them.

I'd love Labor to offer some smart alternative savings - they have all the Henry Tax review savings still to implement - but they're sadly playing from the small target rule book and are setting themselves up for the same revenue shortfalls that Abbott has gotten himself into.

The magic pudding of an ever expanding ToT and private debt has come to an end.  Neither side of politics seems to have realised that as yet.


----------



## sydboy007 (29 May 2014)

noco said:


> Bill Shorten and all Labor MPs could not give a hoot about the National interest....It is confrontation for the sake of confrontation.
> 
> They obviously do not want the Abbott government to succeed in bring our finances under control......they are in complete denial of how serious the situation is......Wake up Labor.....your country needs you to do the right thing.
> 
> ...




So what is your view on Abbott wanting to allow unlimited 457 visa workers into the country?

As reported in you primary source of information - The Australian

_Official data reveals that while 67,000 Australian technicians and tradies search for work, employers have brought in 10,210 foreign trade workers on 457 work visas during the first nine months of this financial year. Employers also looked offshore for 19,260 professional staff, despite a pool of 83,700 Australians unemployed.

And 8150 managers were sponsored on 457 visas, despite 40,200 Australian managers on the dole queue…_

Please tell me how allowing even more foreign workers into the country, when we already have a decade high level of unemployment, when the participation rate is continuing to fall so there's a high level of hidden unemployment, when youth unemployment is over 12% is in my interest, the unemployed's interest, and really the interests of civil society in Australia?  Besides Gina the odd foreign resource company, who's interests is Abbott serving


----------



## noco (29 May 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> So what is your view on Abbott wanting to allow unlimited 457 visa workers into the country?
> 
> As reported in you primary source of information - The Australian
> 
> ...




I believe you will find the reason why overseas workers are brought in on 457 visas is because the majority of Australians looking for these jobs do not want to relocate in to remote areas where these jobs are most available
Lets say hypothetically, you are settled in Sydney with your wife and family, a nice home and you are an unemployed diesel mechanic......A job comes up in a remote place in Western Australia...would you in all honesty accept that job? 

I am sure you are aware of this but you find it hard to admit it, instead like a lot of whingers in the Labor Party, they will twist things around to discredit the current government where ever they can.

Let us not forget unemployment went up by 200,000 during 2007/13.

Tasmania with the highest unemployment on the country cannot get workers to pick fruit so they have to rely on overseas workers to do the jobs. This is just an example of one industry.

I hope that answers your question.


----------



## qldfrog (29 May 2014)

so can we all agree that Abbott and Shorten are each as rotten as the others, just with different lobby groups and that neither are actually working for Australia.
We really need either some honest politicians  or at least an alternate 3 rd party and no, the green are not one...


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2014)

noco said:


> Lets say hypothetically, you are settled in Sydney with your wife and family, a nice home and you are an unemployed diesel mechanic......A job comes up in a remote place in Western Australia...would you in all honesty accept that job?




A lot of people would, if the pay was good enough.

457's are a means of forcing down labour costs, rather than filling gaps.


----------



## sydboy007 (29 May 2014)

noco said:


> I believe you will find the reason why overseas workers are brought in on 457 visas is because the majority of Australians looking for these jobs do not want to relocate in to remote areas where these jobs are most available
> Lets say hypothetically, you are settled in Sydney with your wife and family, a nice home and you are an unemployed diesel mechanic......A job comes up in a remote place in Western Australia...would you in all honesty accept that job?
> 
> I am sure you are aware of this but you find it hard to admit it, instead like a lot of whingers in the Labor Party, they will twist things around to discredit the current government where ever they can.
> ...




I'm in IT so lets say I was uneployed in Sydney and saw a good job opportunity in WA I would use the following criteria for applying for the job:

* Soundness of the company - it costs a lot to relocate so if I'm likely to lose the job in a year then I'd probably stay put.

* Do I believe the current lack of employment opportunities in Sydney will continue for at least the 6 months - if not then I'd be inclined to continue to try and get a job where my family and friends are.

Is it wrong for someone to be disinclined to uproot their family and move them a long way from family and friends?  Factor in the high levels of taxation around housing and it makes moving a very big financial expense - sale costs and likely new purchase costs.  Did you ever face such a choice?  So far I've been lucky enough to move between jobs in the same city. I'd honestly be reluctant to move from Sydney as it does have a more enlightened view of "gays" than most other cities, especially when compared to WA.

Can you present any evidence that the majority of 457 Visa jobs are in remote areas and that locals were given a fair chance to apply for the job?  Isn't it just as likely that foreign workers were employed as a cheaper alternative at below local pay rates (not to be confused with below minimum pay rates).  Certainly a lot of employers would love workers who have to remain subservient or they're shipped back off to where they came from and a new worker imported who Knows Their Place.

Possibly the fact it's nearly impossible to earn a liveable income from picking fruit, and the fact that it is back breaking labour so anyone thinking to take it up would need at least a month to ease into it - slower picking means less $$$ is why it's hard to get people willing to do the work.  Who will help to pay the moving costs of the unemployed to move to a new area, especially in the Abbott era of no income support for 6 months?  Should Abbott provide a 10K incentive for the unemployed over 50s to move to Tasmania to pick fruit?  If they're of fit body they shouldn't they be required to work any job like it's expected of the young?

As for twisting the truth, the Abbott opposition and Government have spun so many lies and half truths it's just hard to keep up with the level of deception.  From lies about funding cuts to the AFP, lies about the cost of electricity and the carbon tax, lies about why BHP decided against the Olympic dam expansion, lies over the NBN, lies about how they would be able to balance the budget and provide tax cuts.


----------



## sydboy007 (29 May 2014)

qldfrog said:


> so can we all agree that Abbott and Shorten are each as rotten as the others, just with different lobby groups and that neither are actually working for Australia.
> We really need either some honest politicians  or at least an alternate 3 rd party and no, the green are not one...




Pretty much.  The greens COULD be an alternative party, if they could get rid of the extremism in some of their policies.  They're certainly at least acknowledging the house affordability crisis and the negative consequences it's having on society which is more than the LABERALs have done.  Family first has a very good housing policy, but then their towards the religious nutter view of the world on most things.

The Sex party has a novel way of balancing the budget via legalising most drugs in personal use quantities and taxing their consumption.  Seems a far better idea than our current expensive ban that does little to limit drug use and exposes people to potentially unsafe product.

Labor sickened me when they ignored so many good ideas in the Henry tax Review, Abbott sickens me because he's ignored them too and wasted money on another review that will likely make similar recommendations.  It's also likely he will ignore most of the recommendations as they will strike at the very heart of the rentier class.

The party that has a viable policy based on attacking tax expenditures and affordable housing at < 4 times the median income of each capital city will likely get my vote.  I fear flying pigs will occur before that happens.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Pretty much.  The greens COULD be an alternative party, if they could get rid of the extremism in some of their policies.  They're certainly at least acknowledging the house affordability crisis and the negative consequences it's having on society which is more than the LABERALs have done.  Family first has a very good housing policy, but then their towards the religious nutter view of the world on most things.
> 
> The Sex party has a novel way of balancing the budget via legalising most drugs in personal use quantities and taxing their consumption.  Seems a far better idea than our current expensive ban that does little to limit drug use and exposes people to potentially unsafe product.
> 
> ...





What you said syd.

I think we need to ask whether the problem is the electorate rather than the politicians.

Why did a moderate, commonsense party like the Australian Democrats eventually fail ?

 Not enough media attention ? Letting through the GST ? (Howard's majority fell sharply after the GST went through because he had a big majority). Infighting (Lees vs Stott-Despoia) ? Defection of Kernot ?

They had good policies, but not strong leadership. Maybe the electorate still plays the man and not the ball.


----------



## boofhead (29 May 2014)

noco said:


> Tasmania with the highest unemployment on the country cannot get workers to pick fruit so they have to rely on overseas workers to do the jobs. This is just an example of one industry.




There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. My father is a part of the produce picking industry. He and a number of his co-workers applied for jobs picking some berries. A few weeks later the same company was talking about difficulty getting Australian workers. My father and his friends did not get the jobs. Most went to people on visas for the purpose of the berries. To rub salt in the wound they were housed in an incomplete building transformation for housing them - in the street my father lives in. Not even a washing machine or drier was provided. All in Tasmania.

A number of the labour hire companies involved with produce harvesting also own housing they rent out to their backpackers etc. A number of regional labour high companies involved also have arrangements with other labour hire companies and move people around as needed - the backpackers and people on various special visas.


----------



## chiff (29 May 2014)

I heard roughly the same thing-that backpackers were preferred to locals in Tasmania.From what I have heard the locals are shut out in a lot of areas.Teams of Cambodians etc. in our area tender for the whole crop of picking and supply their own labour.There are still niches left,but things are not what they were.


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## Julia (29 May 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> So while you may be just as critical of Abbotts' fear mongering when he was in opposition, the majority on this forum only seem to see things as negative when it's Labor that's doing them.



Perhaps consider that 'the majority on this forum' simply disagreed with the carbon tax and  naturally enough would not wish to negate anything said against it.
And, if you have a grievance against what 'the majority on this forum' might or might not  have said, maybe consider that you should address that grievance to that majority.



> I'd love Labor to offer some smart alternative savings - they have all the Henry Tax review savings still to implement - but they're sadly playing from the small target rule book and are setting themselves up for the same revenue shortfalls that Abbott has gotten himself into.
> 
> The magic pudding of an ever expanding ToT and private debt has come to an end.  Neither side of politics seems to have realised that as yet.



On the contrary, all impressions suggest that the government has indeed realised the party is over and they are attempting to address the situation.  Labor, on the other hand, seem to either actually still be in denial, or have also realised the oncoming mess, but have elected to maximise their political advantage by playing to the naivete and vulnerability of the electorate.



noco said:


> Tasmania with the highest unemployment on the country cannot get workers to pick fruit so they have to rely on overseas workers to do the jobs. This is just an example of one industry.






sydboy007 said:


> Possibly the fact it's nearly impossible to earn a liveable income from picking fruit, and the fact that it is back breaking labour so anyone thinking to take it up would need at least a month to ease into it - slower picking means less $$$ is why it's hard to get people willing to do the work.



I acknowledge that this is anecdotal evidence only, but every afternoon I walk through a large caravan park populated by itinerant baby boomers.  Talking with them, 90% of them move around the country following seasonal fruit picking.  They tell me, yes, it's quite hard work, but the money is good for those who are prepared to put in the effort.  
Why can't the young unemployed, who presumably are a bit more physically fit than people in their late middle age, do the same?



> Who will help to pay the moving costs of the unemployed to move to a new area, especially in the Abbott era of no income support for 6 months?



I can't be bothered looking up the details for you, but there was an announcement quite recently that the government would provide removal expenses plus incentive payments for people prepared to move to where they could find work.



> Should Abbott provide a 10K incentive for the unemployed over 50s to move to Tasmania to pick fruit?  If they're of fit body they shouldn't they be required to work any job like it's expected of the young?



Answered.  See above.



SirRumpole said:


> What you said syd.
> 
> I think we need to ask whether the problem is the electorate rather than the politicians.
> 
> ...



+1.  A great shame that the infighting within the Democrats caused their demise.
The rot seemed to start with Cheryl Kernot defecting to Labor, presumably connected with her relationship with a prominent Labor figure.  As a result, their status of the maintainers of integrity was compromised, it seemed.


----------



## Knobby22 (30 May 2014)

Julia said:


> +1.  A great shame that the infighting within the Democrats caused their demise.
> The rot seemed to start with Cheryl Kernot defecting to Labor, presumably connected with her relationship with a prominent Labor figure.  As a result, their status of the maintainers of integrity was compromised, it seemed.




+2  And Natasha Party Destroyer's continuous back stabbing and moving the party to the left didn't help.


----------



## sydboy007 (30 May 2014)

Julia said:


> On the contrary, all impressions suggest that the government has indeed realised the party is over and they are attempting to address the situation.  Labor, on the other hand, seem to either actually still be in denial, or have also realised the oncoming mess, but have elected to maximise their political advantage by playing to the naivete and vulnerability of the electorate.




Besides the changes to the mooted pension and fuel excise changes, the current Govt has not really done anything of a structural nature to help resolve medium term budget issues.

If the Abbott Govt can't bring themselves to have RBLS on super, then a 10K pre tax contribution limit is $6B saved, growing every year.  Hardly affects anyone and saves a lot of $$$.  Changes to NG, removing the halving of CGT, dropping their opposition to the economically rational changes to the statutory method for car FBT would actually show the age of entitlement is beginning to end.  Ignoring tax expenditures shows a very shallow view to what the age of entitlement was all about.

Throw in the massive levels of military pork the Abbott Govt is shovelling out the door - 10 billion to $15 billion-program for just 1,000 locally produced armoured vehicles, and locally designed and built submarines for around $40 billion (yes Labor started it but they're continuing bad policy) and now Abbott is proposing to turn some of the Navy's Landing Helicopter Docks in aircraft carriers yet he hasn't changed the Australian JSF order to those with VTO capability, so there will be hundreds of millions to billions in required modifications on the aircraft and LHDs to fit in with his wants.

Lets also no mention that most of the budget cuts and cost increases are being used to fund the removal of the carbon tax and resource tax, both of which are relatively efficient taxes that are being replaced with lower service levels and less efficient taxes.


----------



## noco (30 May 2014)

The dole bludgers were allowed to flourish under Labor for too long.....They are in for a rude awakening  very soon and may find if they don't work they won't eat.

Just tune into the link to see how some young people are living a life of luxury on the Gold Coast on taxpayers money.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1401445474305


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2014)

noco said:


> The dole bludgers were allowed to flourish under Labor for too long.....They are in for a rude awakening  very soon and may find if they don't work they won't eat.
> 
> Just tune into the link to see how some young people are living a life of luxury on the Gold Coast on taxpayers money.
> 
> ...




If people have been on the dole for more than about a year, there is something wrong. They should have to go and get some qualifications or skills that are required in their area. Either that or work for the dole.


----------



## sydboy007 (31 May 2014)

noco said:


> The dole bludgers were allowed to flourish under Labor for too long.....They are in for a rude awakening  very soon and may find if they don't work they won't eat.
> 
> Just tune into the link to see how some young people are living a life of luxury on the Gold Coast on taxpayers money.
> 
> ...




While not in Australia, a reporter in the USA sent out roughly 600 Resumes for various jobs.  From the description the reported had a number of boiler plate resumes that went from skilled to unskilled in the job and also from currently employed to unemployed up to 1 year.

What he found was in every case that once a skilled person had been unemployed for 6 months or more, unskilled people would get replies to come in for an interview if they were currently employed or only recently unemployed.

I would not be surprised to see a similar kind of discrimination in Australia.

Even the Government is forecasting unemployment to continue to rise for at least the next financial year, so under that scenario how is it the unemployeds' fault they are unable to get a job when the economy is growing slow slowly it's impossible for everyone to have a job?

Now lets have a look at your luxury statement.

The single rate with no children is 510.50 a fortnight.

You'll likely be renting so the maximum rate of rental assistance is $126.40 / fortnight if your weekly rent is over $280.53 a fortnight.

So lets take the best case scenarios where you're receiving $636.9 a fortnight.

Fortnightly costs:
Rent = $280.53 (minimum level to get the maximum rental assistance)
Food = $150 (roughly what I spend on fairly basic shopping for a single person)
Utilities = $35 (i've included basic internet / home phone / mobile access otherwise it does make job hunting difficult based on a 3 person share household)
Public Transport = $50

So we're down to $121 left over to fund a luxury lifestyle.

I'd also argue that to get $140 weekly rent would require sharing a bedroom with someone else unless you were living in a very undesirable location, which would probably mean the above public transport costs would be higher.  There's probably other costs in life I've not covered.  Puts you in a precarious position if you can't find a bulk billing doctor and need to pay $65 for a visit like I recently did, especially if you're up for some medication after the visit.

I grew up in a welfare family, I can assure you we did not live in luxury.  Most of my clothes were hand me downs or Kmart Christmas gifts.  We grew a lot of veggies, we mowed lawns, put roofing insulation during summer heatwaves, installed kilometres of fencing on farms and peoples properties, my mum cleaned peoples' houses, never went on holidays.  A real treat was a monthly trip to the book exchange with my mum, or the council library to get books not available in the school library.

How about you direct some of your outrage to the corporate sector and the very wealthy who bilk the tax payers a lot more.


----------



## Julia (31 May 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If people have been on the dole for more than about a year, there is something wrong. They should have to go and get some qualifications or skills that are required in their area. Either that or work for the dole.



Isn't this precisely what the government is proposing?  i.e. get a job or only be eligible for the dole if you are in some sort of learning program or work for the dole.  Sounds fair enough to me.

And if they have to share accommodation to make ends meet, then just do that and get on with putting in effort to get a decent job.  Plenty of us shared accommodation when we were starting out.  Helps to develop social skills and understanding of the need to co-operate with others.

Just a side note on some of the realities behind the continuing statements about people being unable to get a job.  This is an anecdote from a friend whose grandson this week attended a group interview in the quest for an after school job at Coles.  There were about 500 of mostly teenagers.  They were divided into multiple groups, each group being given a task and told to choose a leader to best ensure that task would be fulfilled.

The employers watched and listened and eventually chose 100 people, repeated a similar exercise with them, and so on, down to ten people who next week will attend a personal interview.  Happily for my friend her grandson is one of them.

What I found unbelievable is that more than half these kids turned up with either bare feet or thongs, shorts and tees.   The grandson and one other kid were the only ones wearing ties.

Seems likely to me that many of such kids don't want a job at all, or they'd make more of an effort to present themselves properly.  I guess by attending they can tick the box on the Centrelink form which says it's another job they have applied for.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 May 2014)

> The grandson and one other kid were the only ones wearing ties.




Wearing ties is soooo yesterday. Like smoking cigars.



However, what you said was that 500 applied for ten people to attend a personal interview , of which how many will be chosen ? 

That must give you a clue as to the extent of youth unemployment if there are 500 applicants for less than 10 jobs.

The employers seem to have the upper hand at the moment.


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## noco (31 May 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> While not in Australia, a reporter in the USA sent out roughly 600 Resumes for various jobs.  From the description the reported had a number of boiler plate resumes that went from skilled to unskilled in the job and also from currently employed to unemployed up to 1 year.
> 
> What he found was in every case that once a skilled person had been unemployed for 6 months or more, unskilled people would get replies to come in for an interview if they were currently employed or only recently unemployed.
> 
> ...




But you forgot to mention these young dole bludgers more than likely have 6 or 8 living in the one house.....$639.90 X 8 = $5119.20......They are not stupid......they have worked it out very well and I know exactly of this case happening  in Townsville.

They live like rabbits.......in and out of one hole every night.


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## sydboy007 (31 May 2014)

noco said:


> But you forgot to mention these young dole bludgers more than likely have 6 or 8 living in the one house.....$639.90 X 8 = $5119.20......They are not stupid......they have worked it out very well and I know exactly of this case happening  in Townsville.
> 
> They live like rabbits.......in and out of one hole every night.




And that's Labor's fault because...???  I'm assuming from your argument that there was never any form of "dole bludging" when Howard was in office.

Could it be they're living like rabbits because that's the only way to survive when you're on an income basically below the poverty line?  Are you saying you would have a life of luxury on the same level of income?  I know I'd certainly find it hard to exist on that kind of money in Sydney, even renting an hour out of the city.

What are your solutions to the problem?  
How would you stop your solutions from having negative consequences for the genuinely unemployed?
How do you propose to get everyone who wants a full time job into one?


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## Julia (31 May 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Wearing ties is soooo yesterday.



Really?  It wouldn't appear so, given that the two kids out of the ten chosen were the ones wearing ties.
Of course I'm not suggesting they were chosen just for that reason, but let's remember that the people manning checkouts etc in Coles and Woolworths are always neatly dressed and at times have included ties.
The point is not what you might think is fashionable or otherwise, but what the employer is looking for, which presumably includes a pride in one's appearance.


> However, what you said was that 500 applied for ten people to attend a personal interview , of which how many will be chosen ?
> 
> That must give you a clue as to the extent of youth unemployment if there are 500 applicants for less than 10 jobs.



I have no idea how many will be chosen.  Given the turnover of staff I would imagine probably all ten.

You have conveniently ignored my suggestion that many of those 'applying' were doing so, unsuitably attired and probably with attitudes to match, simply to be able to tick the box on the Centrelink form enabling their continued receipt of the dole.

Sometimes, Rumpole, I wonder at your apparent determination to try to score less than valid points to support your political affiliation, rather than  just accepting a simple anecdote at face value.  It does put one off bothering to post.


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## SirRumpole (1 June 2014)

Julia said:


> Really?  It wouldn't appear so, given that the two kids out of the ten chosen were the ones wearing ties.
> 
> It does put one off bothering to post




As do people who ignore emoticons and apparently have no sense of humour. 



> You have conveniently ignored my suggestion that many of those 'applying' were doing so, unsuitably attired and probably with attitudes to match, simply to be able to tick the box on the Centrelink form enabling their continued receipt of the dole.




You made a suggestion, the basis for which I don't know. Maybe some people apply to 'tick boxes' as you put it, but if their experience is that at a ratio of 500 applications for one job that their chances are very small, then that maybe a reason for their attire, if not a justification. Your words " unsuitably attired and *probably *with attitudes to match", is a biased assumption without proof on your part.



> Sometimes, Rumpole, I wonder at your apparent determination to try to score less than valid points to support your political affiliation, rather than  just accepting a simple anecdote at face value.





Your anecdote is just that, anecdotal, from a friend via her grandson. You weren't there so you had to rely on the personal experience and biases of others. The quality of their observations is unknown.

You ignored the simple facts that there were 500 applicants for less than 10 jobs. If you exclude your *"more than half"* of  * "unsuitable applicants"*, let's say that leaves 200 "suitable applicants" for perhaps one job, and you still say there is no unemployment problem ? 

And you accuse me of trying to score "less than valid points" ?

ROFL.



> This is an anecdote from a friend whose grandson this week attended a group interview in the quest for an *after schoo*l job at Coles.
> 
> I guess by attending they can tick the box on the Centrelink form which says it's another job they have applied for.





If it was an *"after school"* job, then one assumes most at least of the applicants were still at school and not going to Centrelink. So there is another bit of bias on your part.

Make all the anecdotes you like Julia, but they are no substitute for facts.


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## SirRumpole (1 June 2014)

Julia said:


> Sometimes, Rumpole, I wonder at your apparent determination to try to score less than valid points to support your political affiliation, rather than  just accepting a simple anecdote at face value.  It does put one off bothering to post.




I refer you to my first post on this issue



> If people have been on the dole for more than about a year, there is something wrong. They should have to go and get some qualifications or skills that are required in their area. Either that or work for the dole.




I don't have a problem with some of the government's actions on the youth unemployment issue, except for the proposal to cut of their benefits for 6 months. However, they, and yourself, appear to be in denial mode that there actually is a problem with youth unemployment ; ie there are more applicants (many more from your anecdote) than there are jobs. If the government denies that fact, and tries to put all the blame on job seekers, then they deserve contempt.


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## SirRumpole (1 June 2014)

> but let's remember that the people manning checkouts etc in Coles and Woolworths are always neatly dressed and at times have included ties.




All the checkout people I see are wearing a company uniform supplied by their employer, so the wearing of a tie at interview would seem irrelevant.


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## SirRumpole (1 June 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> All the checkout people I see are wearing a company uniform supplied by their employer, so the wearing of a tie at interview would seem irrelevant.




Did you see Christopher Pyne on Insiders this morning ?

He had the gall to turn up to an interview *WITHOUT A TIE !!!*

What a terrible example to set our unemployed youth


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## Julia (1 June 2014)

Rumpole, I lack the interest and energy to match your determination to engage in squabbling.

I will just say that - having lived in this town for 22 years, and having volunteered with young people in a mentoring and emergency relief capacity for most of that time - I have a pretty good understanding of local conditions and attitudes.

I'll in future avoid posting any small anecdote which I'd thought might be of interest to some in terms of how the big employers go about selecting their staff.


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## SirRumpole (1 June 2014)

> Rumpole, I lack the interest and energy to match your determination to engage in squabbling.




Not squabbling, DISCUSSION. I thought that's what this forum was for.





Julia said:


> I'll in future avoid posting any small anecdote which I'd thought might be of interest to some in terms of how the big employers go about selecting their staff.




You anecdote was certainly interesting, and thank you for it, but like most such anecdotes it told only half the story and the way it was told appealed to a certain group whose prejudices are already ingrained. I believe the common term for such stories  is "dog whistling".

Anyway, cheers, and keep the anecdotal evidence rolling in.


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## noco (12 June 2014)

Me thinks Shorten knows a lot more than he letting on.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...lder-athol-james/story-fng5kxvh-1226951284471


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## noco (23 June 2014)

Labor talks about disunity in the Coalition......perhaps they should get their own house in order.

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-bills-in-bother/story-fnbcok0h-1226962992237


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## noco (1 July 2014)

Martin Parkinson from Treasury has warned the useless Green/Labor left wing socialists the damage they are doing to the economy of this country and they still ignore that warning in the National interest.....The National interest Labor always lectured us about in 2007/2013 ....Labor could not care less about the National interest......they only care about political point scoring....They should be ashamed of themselves.


*Block on savings will ‘damage our future’, says Martin Parkinson*

    The Australian
    July 01, 2014 12:00AM

    Print
    Save for later

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David Uren
Economics Editor
Canberra
https://plus.google.com/111790188086700309806

TREASURY chief Martin Parkinson has warned that opposition to the savings measures in the budget risks inflicting long-term damage to Australia’s economic future.

Dr Parkinson also declares that Australia’s budget position is not sustainable without major reform and the government’s budget strategy achieves this.

Although the strategy would pave the way for much-needed reform of the tax system, however he says it is unrealistic to suggest the budget could be brought back to balance by raising taxes.

In a speech to a joint ANU-Australian Financial Review conference in Canberra yesterday, Dr Parkinson said the focus of budget repair had to be on the spending side.

“It is one thing to argue that reform proposals should be designed with fairness in mind,” he said. “But it is quite another to invoke vague notions of fairness to oppose all reform. Using such an argument to defend an unsustainable status quo means consigning Australia to a deteriorating future.”

Dr Parkinson said the government’s budget did tackle the problems that Australia faced, with the prospect of large deficits continuing into the indefinite* *future. “The policy decisions taken by the government in this budget are projected to restore the budget to a position that is structurally sustainable over the medium term,” he said.

Dr Parkinson said that if budget repair were to focus on spending, it had to be recognised that Australia’s welfare system was highly targeted.

“Policy changes will likely have a larger impact on those who receive the most payments.”

He said those who argued that the government should have focused more on raising taxes needed to recognise the structural pressures confronting the tax system. In 2015-16, the average full-time employee will already be pulled into the second highest tax bracket, paying 39 cents in tax for each additional dollar they earn. By 2023-24, the average full-time tax rate would rise from 23 per cent to 28 per cent in the absence of personal income tax cuts.

Continued increases in income taxes would hit lower and middle-income earners hardest, and have adverse impacts on labour force participation while “sharpening incentives for tax minimisation by the highest income earners.”

It has been shown that countries with less reliance on personal income tax and greater use of indirect taxes supported better economic growth and higher living standards.

Dr Parkinson said the corporate tax base was being eroded by globalisation and the changing nature of international commerce. Despite the introduction of the GST in 2000, Australia’s dependence on direct taxes was as great today as it was in 1950 and was high relative to other OECD countries.

“Without conscious change, the economic cost of raising tax from our current tax mix will increase,” he said.

Dr Parkinson said the future of tax reform rested with the community. However the government’s tax and federation white papers presented a “once in a generation opportunity for reform”.
Originally published as Savings block will ‘damage future’

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...martin-parkinson/story-e6frg926-1226972989958


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## drsmith (1 July 2014)

noco said:


> Martin Parkinson from Treasury has warned the useless Green/Labor left wing socialists the damage they are doing to the economy of this country and they still ignore that warning in the National interest.....The National interest Labor always lectured us about in 2007/2013 ....Labor could not care less about the National interest......they only care about political point scoring....They should be ashamed of themselves.



The Greens themselves have their own inconsistencies to deal with.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...palmer-has-greens-on-edge-20140630-3b4c4.html


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## drsmith (1 July 2014)

Bill Shorten wants to maintain a Labor policy from the Gillard government.

Class warfare.



> But Mr Shorten was strongly critical of the budget and the "faux language of lifters and leaners"."In four years' time, someone earning a quarter of a million tax will not be paying the temporary income levy ...but if you are on a pension your wage will be decreased,'' he said.




He's right about the main point of the article, but the Gillard government would have realised that at the time it announced the carbon tax. Then, as we all remember, it was about securing office with the support of the Greens and independents.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...imate-action-bill-shorten-20140701-3b605.html


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## noco (1 July 2014)

If the Green/Labor socialist leg wing party codons the full paid parental leave scheme for public servants, why isn't OK for those workers employed by private enterprise?
I personally do not agree with either scheme but the hypocrisy of the Labor is typical. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...eft-holding-baby/story-fnbkvnk7-1226972824367

NOW I am no fan of Tony Abbott’s proposed paid parental leave scheme. But, frankly, the stench of hypocrisy coming from Labor, the trade unions and left-wing commentators is close to overpowering.

Take the stance of Labor parliamentarians, led by former trade unionist, Bill Shorten. Perhaps his team needs reminding that it was Labor’s Gough Whitlam who introduced the Maternity Leave Act 1973, which provides for a minimum of 12 weeks parental leave for commonwealth public servants at full replacement wages, plus superannuation.

And can I remind trade union leaders that the ACTU’s submission to the Productivity Commission’s inquiry into paid parental leave recommended a guaranteed income of 14 weeks at ordinary time earnings, plus superannuation, with the costs split between government and employers.

Let’s face it: if a full replacement wage parental leave scheme of 26 weeks duration were proposed by Labor, the pages of The Age, The Sydney Morning Herald and The Guardian would be filled with gushy opinion pieces praising the foresight, fairness and economic sense of the proposal.

And if that is not bad enough, the naysayers of Abbott’s PPL scheme — a scheme that has been taken to two elections — conveniently ignore the extremely generous arrangements that apply to workers in the public sector, the costs of which are borne by taxpayers.

The features of these arrangements include:

• The scope for double dipping;

• Full wage replacement parental leave, including superannuation;

• The manipulation (nay, rorting) of the system to benefit public sector workers on paid parental leave.

Take the first issue, double dipping. Under the current arrangements, a public servant on parental leave can receive 14 weeks on full pay (the number of weeks varies between departments and can be taken as half pay for a longer period) as well as the government-provided payment of 18 weeks based on the minimum wage. As long as the public servant has a taxable income of less than $150,000 per year (and most will), this double dipping is completely permissible.

Adding in individuals’ ability to cash in unused leave entitlements, it is pretty clear that many public sector workers are on extremely good wickets when bub comes along — and all courtesy of the taxpayer.

As if that’s not bad enough, it gets worse. There are various wrinkles in arrangements that pertain to particular classes of public sector workers across the country. Take nurses employed in the NSW public sector as a case in point. They are entitled to 14 weeks’ parental leave on full pay, plus superannuation.

But here’s the kicker: if a nurse has a subsequent period of parental leave while on unpaid parental leave or has returned to work on reduced hours (and it is within 12 months from recommencing work), the next period of parental leave is paid at the full-time rate — plus superannuation. Wow, I think. Expect a lot of nurses’ children to be close in age.

Not surprisingly, these arrangements now apply to all health professionals working in the public system in NSW. Note also that these provisions are the result of union-led negotiations.

And take a look at the paid parental leave provisions in publicly funded universities. While there are some variations, a typical pattern is 24 weeks on full pay for workers with at least five years’ tenure (14 weeks for others) plus a return-to-work bonus of 12 weeks’ pay. Let’s not forget that many of these university workers will be entitled to the government’s paid parental leave scheme payments as well. It really is a fabulous deal for those who can get it.

And then there is the outright rorting of paid parental leave that takes place in the public service, the tab for which is picked up by the taxpayer. There are a number of variations, including workers returning to full-time duties for the two weeks prior to taking paid parental leave (and being paid at full-time replacement pay) and temporary appointments at a higher classification.

Without the pressure of a financial bottom line, supervisors often give into these contrivances in the (mistaken) belief that there is no harm generated by workers getting enhanced deals when baby arrives.

So where does this leave the debate? The truth is that the detractors of Abbott’s PPL are hiding behind a thin veil of two-faced duplicity in which extremely generous full wage replacement schemes for public sector workers are endorsed while simultaneously criticising the features of Abbott’s scheme.

When Labor shadow minister for disability reform, Jenny Macklin, writes that “the huge gap in support between high and low income women is fundamentally unfair; this is taxpayer’s money”, is she talking about the parental leave arrangements that apply in the public sector or to Abbott’s scheme? I think you know the answer. And surely the ACTU is somewhat embarrassed by the fact that support for a full wage replacement parental leave scheme has been its official policy since Adam was a boy?

What is the way forward? The obvious first move is to remove double dipping. Any public servants (or any other workers, for that matter) receiving paid parental leave from their employer should not be able to receive the government provided payment in addition. (There could be scope for some top-up if the worker received less in total than the current government scheme provides.)

Second, there needs to be a systematic review of the paid parental leave arrangements that apply in the public sector. Wrinkles such as workers being paid at full pay during subsequent leave periods even if they have not returned to work need to be eliminated. Third, the outright rorting of arrangements should be stamped out.

I am still not a fan of Abbott’s PPL. But when it comes to attacking those who defend the inequitable treatment of different workers taking parental leave, he does have a point.
Originally published as Taxpayers left holding baby


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## dutchie (4 July 2014)

Quote of the week

“A cabinet full of Ricky Muirs couldn’t be any worse than a cabinet full of Gillard government ministers.”


http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/ricky_muir_the_senate_everyman_0rEMpK2I7VZ2SRHWn6qDtL


What an insult to Ricky Muirs.


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## noco (7 July 2014)

Shorten has only self interest and absolutely no National interest....He is doing everything in his power to stop Abbott achieving a budget surplus.......

We need Shorten like a hole in the head. 

•

IN the house of the hanged, said Cervantes, it is unseemly to talk about the noose. But someone needs to remind Bill Shorten of Labor’s fiscal record. From 2010 on, every day brought pledges of a speedy return to surplus; in the end, all Labor left was a sea of red ink.

Given that record, one might have expected the Opposition Leader to do whatever he could to re-establish Labor’s fiscal credib*ility. Instead, while opposing virtually every savings measure the government has proposed, he has had nothing to say about what Labor would put in their place.

In part, Shorten’s goal is to ensure Tony Abbott can’t deliver the surplus Labor so spectacularly failed to achieve. But his approach also reflects a simple assessment: that voters prefer vast unfunded promises to bitter budget realities. And far from helping the electorate confront the home truths, Shorten has opted to fuel its illusions.

For sure, Shorten vaunts the Hawke government’s achievements, including the tough budgets of 1987-89; but he praises those efforts only so as to bury them. Placing hurdles rather than handrails on the path to fiscal sustainability, Shorten remains wedded to the recklessness of the Rudd and Gillard years.

Unfortunately, Shorten is not alone in turning his back on economic good sense. Beginning 30 years ago, from New Zealand to Scandinavia, centre-left governments reined in welfare programs, cut taxes and opened markets to competition. Now, with even the usually moderate Swedish social democrats endorsing a hard-left, “red-green’’ coalition, that era is well and truly over.

The change reflects perceptions of electoral realities. Origin*ally, centre-left theorists thought that embracing a “third way’’ would broaden their electoral appeal without compromising their working-class constituency; like Richard Nixon going to China, their positioning on the Left meant they, and only they, could afford to take the tough measures needed to ensure prosperity. As a result, good policies and good politics would march hand in hand.

Events, however, have not borne out those expectations. On the contrary, the traditional social-democratic voting base has fractured, shifting partly to further-left parties, such as the Greens, partly to centre-right parties, and partly to neo-populist movements that better express that base’s cultural values.

As for the more affluent voters, they have proven costly to attract and retain, leaving the Centre-Left stranded.

Denmark is a case in point. In the 1970s, 55 per cent of manual workers voted for the social democrats. However, starting in 1993, far-reaching reforms tightened elig*ibility for social benefits, linking them more closely to retraining and strengthening work-availability tests.

The “flexisecurity’’ those reforms provided bolstered Denmark’s labour market; but the social democrats’ traditional electorate withered away.

By the 2001 election, 30 per cent of unskilled workers voted for the neo-populist Danish People’s Party, while only 25 per cent remained with the social democrats.

And the centre-right Venstre party also picked up working-class votes, as the party’s commitment to reduce taxes was more credible than that of its centre-left rivals.

Similar trends have occurred in Germany, where the social democrats came to power in 1998 committed to capturing the middle ground.

Under chancellor Gerhard Schroder, the SPD-led government’s “Agenda 2010’’ reshaped the German labour market, raising the pension age and nearly halving the ratio of unemployment benefits to previous earnings. The economic benefits proved durable and substantial; but the political costs were also high.

In 1998, 46 per cent of unionised workers and lower-tier service sector employees had voted for the SPD; by 2009, that share was down to 20 per cent. Faced with those trends, the SPD has reversed course, demanding, as the price of its participation in Chancellor Angela Merkel’s “grand coalition’’, measures which undo key parts of the Agenda 2010 changes.

As well as lowering the pension age in a country massively affect*ed by population ageing and imposing rent control in major cities, those measures include introducing a minimum wage that will affect about 14 per cent of workers nationwide. That risks pricing unskilled workers, such as migrant women, out of the jobs that have boomed in recent years; however, like its Australian counterpart, the SPD values the gains higher wages will bring its core constituency more than the pain unemployment will inflict on the poor and vulnerable.

But whether jettisoning good policy will yield enduring electoral dividends is far from certain. The reality is that since the 1970s, support for centre-right parties has tended to rise, while that for centre-left parties has fallen virtually everywhere, with changes in party line having few lasting effects.

Nor are the centre-left parties’ woes surprising, as they are trying to do the impossible: to preserve the publicly funded employment on which unions now overwhelmingly rely; to entrench labour-market regulations that favour insiders at the community’s expense; to retain social security systems whose costs continue to mount; and yet to attract the votes of an ever-expanding but tax-shy middle class, without which they cannot govern. Little wonder their rhetoric has drifted into incoherence.

But while the political benefits of the Centre-Left’s flight from reality are uncertain, the economic costs are not. And, as French President Francois Hollande has discovered, those costs eventually inflict a crippling electoral price.

None of that, however, will deflect Shorten from the approach he has adopted. That would require a willingness to sacrifice immediate gains for longer-term consequences, like John Howard did in supporting the Hawke government’s reforms. Ultimately, Howard benefited too, as those efforts left a surer basis for sustainable growth, while the show of responsibility strengthened Howard’s authority.

But Howard had convictions; Shorten only has interests. Believing nothing, he hopes voters will believe anything. Yet the mess Labor left behind cannot be so readily forgotten. Unless Shorten learns from it, Labor will join the brain dead of international social democracy; and the noose that swung for Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard will also swing for him.

Shorten fuels the voters’ illusions

    The Australian
    July 07, 2014 12:00AM

    Print
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130
Henry Ergas
Columnist
Sydney


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## noco (14 July 2014)

Between the Green/Labor socialist left wing Party and PUP, havoc, chaos and confusion reigns supreme all in the National interest.

I have never seen in all my born days such stupidity that is currently taking place in politics today....Several warnings have been given by prominent economists and the RBA and still this stupid Labor Party continues on with disruptive tactics to wreck the economy of Australia......They should hang their heads in shame. 

THE federal budget will never get close to being fixed if the Senate forces the government to spend money it doesn’t have on tax cuts and handouts it never promised.

Amid all the Palmer drama last week and confusion about the carbon tax repeal, two big decisions were made that raise questions about whether non-government senators are going beyond any mandate they might have and if such actions make future campaign promises by the party that wins an election meaningless.

It is one thing for the Senate to hold a government to account, or to take the rough edges off a policy, but it is wrong for the house of review to try to overthrow the government’s explicit mandate.

The Senate has created an absurd position where it is forcing the government to deliver tax cuts Labor had abolished and keep payments that Tony Abbott repeatedly said he would axe.

This is entirely different to the post-election decisions to impose a deficit tax on high-income earners, which breaks a promise not to increase taxes, or the $7 GP co-payment that was never mentioned before polling day.

Labor’s position on the $700 million a year in income tax cuts is base political hypocrisy.

These tax cuts were dumped by Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan in May last year on the eve of Labor’s last budget.

They had been intended as a second round of minor compensation next year under original plans for the carbon price to reach $29 a tonne.

But Labor said they were not needed as an expected 0.2 per cent rise in prices was not going to happen. Labor dropped the tax cut, booked the saving in its budget but never got around to doing the paper work.

Last week, when the Coalition sought to put through the legislation to clean this up, Labor suddenly voted to keep the tax cuts, saying they would protect low- and middle-income families from spending cuts. It joined with the Greens and the crossbench to punch another $2 billion hole in the budget over three years.

The tax cuts are worth $1.59 a week to people earning between $25,000 and $65,000. For those on $70,000, there’s an extra $1.21 a week, while people earning more than $80,000 receive 25c a week.

What game is Labor playing? Its election costings assumed the tax cut was abolished and it now offers no saving elsewhere to pay for it.

The government is being forced to spend money it doesn’t have to deliver a promise it never made that was dropped by a former government 14 months ago.

Money bills can’t originate in the Senate but the upper house is also using a tax cut to compensate people for something that isn’t going to happen as compensation for a set of spending cuts that are being blocked.

The other big hit on the budget was delivered by Clive Palmer, when he abruptly said his Palmer United Party senators would vote against removing some of the big spending linked to the mining tax repeal legislation, at a cost of about $8bn-9bn.

This includes the Schoolkids Bonus, a superannuation tax cut of up to $500 for 3.6 million low-paid workers and tax breaks for small business.

The Prime Minister could not have been clearer that he was going to abolish these payments. There were no weasel words or fine print hidden in costings.

He made a virtue of the unpopular decisions he was willing to take to fix the budget. He said they were linked to the mining tax that failed to raise the revenue to pay for them and when he got rid of the tax they would go too.

The biggest risk he took was saying he would axe the Schoolkids Bonus, describing it as a “cash splash with borrowed money”.

In the 2010 election, Abbott had tried to outbid Labor by offering a bigger, non-means tested, handout.

Now, by dumping it, Abbott insis*ted he would not shirk hard decisions.

He would end the payment for about 1.3 million eligible families of $410 a year for each child in prim*ary school and $820 for each child at secondary school.

Labor relentlessly highlighted during the election that, under Abbot*t,* a family with two kids would lose payments worth about $15,000 over their school life.

These were potentially vote-losing policies. Labor campaigned hard against the unfairness of each measure.

It made strong arguments direct*ly to the people and lost.

Regardless of whether these are good or bad policies, the government was clear about what it would do.

It’s a bit rich for Labor to attack Abbott for breaking other promises when they are forcing him to break pledges he is trying to keep just because they don’t like them.

Palmer, however, is a shameless populist wanting to play havoc with Abbott’s agenda and the budget.

Palmer wants to spend billions of dollars of borrowed money with no credible or costed plan to raise matching revenue.

It all seems to be based on the Magic Palmer Money Tree that certainly sounds too good to be true.

When he is put on the spot, he rattles off a list of discredited savings ideas and blusters that the government has “got plenty of money (and) Joe Hockey’s just pulling your leg”.

*Palmer is campaigning for the next election but doesn’t like it when questions scratch below his facade, whether it relates to his business affairs, political negotiations or policies.

He’ll be at it again today, seeking to be the centre of attention over the carbon tax.

It suits Bill Shorten and Labor for Abbott to look like he is not in control and for the budget to be a shambles.

But they all should all heed the warning by Reserve Bank governor Glenn Stevens in The Weekend Australian that political leaders deferring tough decisions to tackle the budget deficit could expose Australia to a much greater risk of a more serious economic downturn when the next one does occur.

And then the sorts of spending cuts and revenue grabs a government might be forced to make might be truly unpalatable.*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-choices-closer/story-fnmnl1y0-1226987520382


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## drsmith (14 July 2014)

noco said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-choices-closer/story-fnmnl1y0-1226987520382



Joe Hockey gave Labor a pretty big serve in QT today on matters budget.


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## noco (14 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> Joe Hockey gave Labor a pretty big serve in QT today on matters budget.




Doc, that is all well and good but doubt if the Green/Labor socialists will change their stupid attitude for the good of the Nation


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## sydboy007 (18 July 2014)

Seriously Labor, if you want to cut back on fossil fuel use, and you've been shafted by the greens in achieving this, why can't you support the extra revenue from having fuel tax indexation.

It's not like we're overly taxed on petrol - 4th lowest in the OECD.

It's a reasonable revenue raiser, it will slowly push people to buy more efficient cars, it helps to broaden the tax base away from teh current over reliance on income taxes.

Support it and let the Government wear most of the blame, and you can thumb ya nose at the greens for being the hypocritical party.


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## IFocus (19 July 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Seriously Labor, if you want to cut back on fossil fuel use, and you've been shafted by the greens in achieving this, why can't you support the extra revenue from having fuel tax indexation.
> 
> It's not like we're overly taxed on petrol - 4th lowest in the OECD.
> 
> ...




I agree Syd Labor seem to be playing from Abbotts opposition hymn book .....shame


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## drsmith (19 July 2014)

Billy boy's going to have his hands full promoting his great big second hand tax on everything.


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## Calliope (19 July 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Support it and let the Government wear most of the blame, and you can thumb ya nose at the greens for being the hypocritical party.




Alternatively the Greens, if they had  intelligent leadership, could support it and 'thumb ya nose" at Labor for being the hppocritical party.

Unfortunately Milne and Hanson-Young are too dumb to realise that it would restore to the Greens some relevance in the Senate which they have lost to the PUPs.


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## sydboy007 (20 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> Billy boy's going to have his hands full promoting his great big second hand tax on everything.




Maybe not.  Given there's already a 70% chance of an el nino next year, and the fact that there's never been so much heat in the water heading towards Australia in the records currently available, if next year turns out to be a long hot angry summer the electorate may just start to ask themselves if the removal of the carbon tax that barely gave them a couple of coffees a week in savings may not have been such a bad insurance policy against the worst.

Until Labor can actually start acting like an alternative Govt, and they're really giving up a great opportunity at present to show they can actually guide us through the mining CAPEX cliff better than the current Govt, I don't like their chances.

If Abbott and Hockey can't bring themselves to follow some of the advice they get in their tax review, we're all stuffed.  Shame they couldn't bring themselves to actually use some of the Henry Tax review.  Shame Labor couldn't be bothered with it too.


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## bellenuit (20 July 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Given there's already a 70% chance of an el nino next year, and the fact that there's never been so much heat in the water heading towards Australia in the records currently available, if next year turns out to be a long hot angry summer the electorate may just start to ask themselves if the removal of the carbon tax that barely gave them a couple of coffees a week in savings may not have been such a bad insurance policy against the worst.




Even allowing for the worst case scenario weather wise, do you think the electorate would believe that had the carbon tax been retained the weather would have been any different? Australia's contribution to emissions, though high per head of population, is relatively insignificant in absolute terms. Only the loonies on the very left, like Robert Manne writing in The Guardian last week, assume that Abbott has hastened the demise of the world by repealing the tax.


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## sydboy007 (20 July 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Even allowing for the worst case scenario weather wise, do you think the electorate would believe that had the carbon tax been retained the weather would have been any different? Australia's contribution to emissions, though high per head of population, is relatively insignificant in absolute terms. Only the loonies on the very left, like Robert Manne writing in The Guardian last week, assume that Abbott has hastened the demise of the world by repealing the tax.




I doubt even Milne would believe the pricing of carbon would have any effect on near term weather events, but during the last long drought voters became increasingly worried about what was happening.  Howard increasingly looked out of touch on the subject.  The same could happen to Abbott depending on how the weather goes over the next couple of years.

The below graphs shows just how insignificant the carbon tax impost was on Australian businesses.  If a maximum cost increase of <= 0.184% has sent businesses broke then I'd argue they had much bigger problems that were the real cause of their demise.

I'll keep hoping Labor can start offering some better socially acceptable alternatives to Abbott's slash and burn budget.  With so many holes in the tax system it doesn't take much to bring in the revenue and make the system fairer.


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## noco (22 July 2014)

Shorten might be long on compassion but it is only skin deep....he is playing the naive for fools and they are lapping it up but sooner or later many will wake up to this Fabian indoctrinated Green/Labor socialist left wing rhetoric.

And from the www.restoreaustralia.org.au

*There is no real difference between Fabianism and Leninist Communism. Both their goals are to impose collectivism. Communism sought to impose collectivism using overwhelming force. We have seen how that failed.

The Fabianists believe in achieving their aims by stealth. They were opposed to the violent revolutions in Russia and China. Instead, they prefer to infiltrate into positions of power and then go about implementing their socialist agenda step by step. They operate so stealthily and operate so slowly, chipping away at the very fabric of society little by little, that most people don’t even notice they have lost their freedom until it is too late. At the same time, the Fabianists are extremely skilled at manipulating public opinion using emotive causes that sound so attractive that most people miss the sinister purpose behind them.*


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ng-on-compassion/story-fnhulhjj-1226996579255


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## explod (22 July 2014)

> =noco;833575]Shorten might be long on compassion but it is only skin deep....he is playing the naive for fools and they are lapping it up but sooner or later many will wake up to this Fabian indoctrinated Green/Labor socialist left wing rhetoric.






And how do you really know all this noco?

I am no fan of Labor or Shorten, but just have a good look at the unsubstantiated dribble you have just written.

One could say a lot about Abbott shooting off at the mouth too.  Update developments on the airline crash for starters.


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## drsmith (22 July 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Maybe not.  Given there's already a 70% chance of an el nino next year, and the fact that there's never been so much heat in the water heading towards Australia in the records currently available, if next year turns out to be a long hot angry summer the electorate may just start to ask themselves if the removal of the carbon tax that barely gave them a couple of coffees a week in savings may not have been such a bad insurance policy against the worst.



An El-Nino is associated with anomalously warm waters over the eastern equatorial Pacific, not around Australia.


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## noco (22 July 2014)

explod said:


> And how do you really know all this noco?
> 
> I am no fan of Labor or Shorten, but just have a good look at the unsubstantiated dribble you have just written.
> 
> One could say a lot about Abbott shooting off at the mouth too.  Update developments on the airline crash for starters.




plod I have posted this link before but I happy to post it again for you to read....If you maintain it is unsubstantiated dribble then make sure you read this link from top to bottom.

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/	25/06/2014	5 KB


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## explod (22 July 2014)

My sincere apologies noco.

However, on the fabian's you can in no way exclude the Libs.

The author indicates a few extreme views also. Could be worth a full dissasertion ole Pal.

If not familiar I recommend you purchase the June issue of New Dawn.


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## noco (22 July 2014)

explod said:


> My sincere apologies noco.
> 
> However, on the fabian's you can in no way exclude the Libs.
> 
> ...




I believe you may be talking about something that happened in America in 1921.


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## explod (22 July 2014)

noco said:


> I believe you may be talking about something that happened in America in 1921.




A big can of worms here, too much to express on my hand held phone, so will get back in a few days.

In the interim a book "The Grand Deception" 2011 by Prof. Dr. Mujahid Kamran could start a detailed perception.

But not referring to.US 1921 noco, just who really controls the world.


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## drsmith (25 July 2014)

Greg Combet wasn't silly enough to lead the pile of ruins Julia Gillard left,



> An embattled Julia Gillard secretly offered to stand down as Prime Minister in June 2013 and secure the leadership for then Climate Change and Industry minister Greg Combet in order to fend off  Kevin Rudd, Mr Combet has revealed.
> 
> But dogged by months of ill-health, and unsure that a switch to a third leadership contender so close to an election would improve Labor’s position, Mr Combet declined the chance to be prime minister.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...er-to-fend-off-kevin-rudd-20140724-zwd9z.html


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## noco (28 July 2014)

The ultimate aim of the Labor Party has not changed from what they call democratic socialism and they will try and achieve it what ever it takes. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-rewrite-purpose/story-fnbcok0h-1227003410284

The party’s driving mission since 1921, according to its constit*ution, has been to implement democratic socialism. This foolish statement was adopted in the shadow of the Russian Revolution and after the split in the party following World War I, as the party was radicalised. The socialist objective defines the party’s central purpose as “the democratic socialisation of production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploit*ation … in these fields”.

NSW Labor, traditionally the party’s most moderate and pragmatic branch, opposed the decis*ion by the federal conference to impose the objective. But it was dir*ected nationally that this was to be the party’s purpose, even though no Labor government has sought to follow it to the letter.

Recognising that it was an alba*tross, changes were made in the 1950s to make the objective applicable “only to the extent necessary” and to iterate that the party believed in “democratic” socialism. An extensive 1981 review made no change to the core statement.

Momentum is building within the party for a rewrite of Labor’s guiding philosophy at the national conference scheduled for July next year, in Melbourne. It cannot recommit to socialism.

This offers the party the chance to develop a clear statement of values to guide future policy development and its approach to governing. The party should free itself of the clunky, doctrinaire, utterly unworkable language that shackles it to the past.

The objective, always impractical, fails to accept that economic mobility and opportunity is created by a dynamic, efficient and productive economy energised by competitive capital, labour and product markets.

Gough Whitlam, Hawke, Paul Keating and Kevin Rudd argue that the objective should be abolished. However, several federal Labor shadow ministers aligned to the Left faction, such as Stephen Jones and Doug Cameron, have lined up against Shorten to defend socialism. So has Labor’s national president Jenny McAllister.


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## noco (2 August 2014)

Now why would Gillard have ignored this warning ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ays-former-judge/story-fn59niix-1227010727269


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## Calliope (7 August 2014)

What a sad day for Labor supporters, one of their icons, the foul-mouthed and bigotted Mike Carlton has lost his job at Fairfax. I guess Crikey will look after him.



> Several Fairfax senior reporters have shared their regret at the paper losing Carlton this morning. Gold Walkley-winning investigative journalist Kate McClymont tweeted that today was “a grim day for our profession”.
> 
> SMH and Age contributing editor Michael Pascoe described Carlton as one of Fairfax’s “best columnists”.
> 
> ...




http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/08/06...get-****ed-mike-carlton-explains-why-he-quit/


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## Macquack (7 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> What a sad day for Labor supporters, one of their icons, the foul-mouthed and bigotted Mike Carlton has lost his job at Fairfax. I guess Crikey will look after him.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/08/06...get-****ed-mike-carlton-explains-why-he-quit/




He called someone "jewish" and they took offence.

The word "jewish" now replaces "anti-semitic" as the ultimate insult.


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## IFocus (7 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> What a sad day for Labor supporters, one of their icons, the foul-mouthed and bigotted Mike Carlton has lost his job at Fairfax. I guess Crikey will look after him.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/08/06...get-****ed-mike-carlton-explains-why-he-quit/





Nice to see the right wing support Carlton for his right of freedom of speech........


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## Julia (7 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> He called someone "jewish" and they took offence.
> 
> The word "jewish" now replaces "anti-semitic" as the ultimate insult.



Oh my goodness, what a complete misrepresentation.  Carlton has been a serial offender with many abusive incidents in his career.   He was not sacked for calling someone 'jewish'.  He apparently told many people who found his article biased and offensive to "**** off" and other  similarly crude language.

His boss, fairly reasonably I'd have thought, decided that - especially in these days of falling newspaper circulation, treating their remaining readers in such an unpleasant fashion was unacceptable.


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## Duckman#72 (7 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> Nice to see the right wing support Carlton for his right of freedom of speech........






The Sydney Morning Herald has said it supports Carlton's right to express his views in his article. They stand by that. Even Andrew Bolt said that he supports Carlton's right to his views...........what he was suspended for, was abusive and offensive behaviour and language. Totally inappropriate for a supposedly respected veteran journalist and commentator. 

Say what you like about Bolt, but he has ALWAYS supported the right of free speech,..........like a lot of people he just has a problem with the term "%$#& off" when used in a in a public debate.  

As Julia as indicated, comments like that of Macquack and Ifocus have completely misrepresented the situation. Have you even taken a passing interest in what actually happened?

Duckman


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## bellenuit (8 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Oh my goodness, what a complete misrepresentation.  Carlton has been a serial offender with many abusive incidents in his career.   He was not sacked for calling someone 'jewish'.  He apparently told many people who found his article biased and offensive to "**** off" and other  similarly crude language.
> 
> His boss, fairly reasonably I'd have thought, decided that - especially in these days of falling newspaper circulation, treating their remaining readers in such an unpleasant fashion was unacceptable.




+100

I cannot believe that Macquack is so ill-informed of what took place that he thinks he was sacked for calling people "Jewish". Carlton was over the top with his foul mouthed replies to those who disagreed with him and from what I have read his sacking was due in a large part to his fellow journalists informing management of his utterly inappropriate behaviour on social media. Though Carlton and Crikey may try to lay the blame at the Jewish lobby or even the Murdoch Press, it was his unprofessional behaviour that was his downfall.


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## IFocus (8 August 2014)

Duckman#72 said:


> The Sydney Morning Herald has said it supports Carlton's right to express his views in his article. They stand by that. Even Andrew Bolt said that he supports Carlton's right to his views...........what he was suspended for, was abusive and offensive behaviour and language. Totally inappropriate for a supposedly respected veteran journalist and commentator.
> 
> Say what you like about Bolt, but he has ALWAYS supported the right of free speech,..........like a lot of people he just has a problem with the term "%$#& off" when used in a in a public debate.
> 
> ...





Duckman you are absolutely right except the bit about misrepresentation certainly wasn't my aim but my sarcastic remark was poorly delivered. 

If I had more time and a higher level of literacy I would have pointed out the political right media blind sight over Israel's military action in Gazza and aggressive attacks on any commentator thats pointed out the obvious that killing kids is bad.

As for Bolt he was asserting the ABC's bias because they referred to the Israel action as a ground offensive.


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## Calliope (8 August 2014)

The one thing that Hamas is not short of, is Palestinian kids; 45% of the children in Gaza are under 14, and Palestinians outbreed Israelis at the rate of nearly two to one. To the Hamas these kids are just cannon fodder and the more of them that they can put in harms way, the more sympathy they get from well-meaning journalists as well as Labor supporters, Al Jazeera and the ABC. It also gives fuel to Jew haters all over the world to harass them.

The Hamas know perfectly well that firing rockets into Israel kills very few people and does little damage, but their strategy to get the Israelis to retaliate, and get world condemnation, is working perfectly. The deaths of children is a great propaganda weapon.


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## SirRumpole (8 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> The Hamas know perfectly well that firing rockets into Israel kills very few people and does little damage, but their strategy to get the Israelis to retaliate, and get world condemnation, is working perfectly. The deaths of children is a great propaganda weapon.




What you are pointing out in effect is the stupidity of Israel retaliating if Hamas rockets do so little damage. If Netanayhu wasn't such an extremist then Hamas would have little effect.


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## IFocus (8 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> The one thing that Hamas is not short of, is Palestinian kids; 45% of the children in Gaza are under 14, and Palestinians outbreed Israelis at the rate of nearly two to one. To the Hamas these kids are just cannon fodder and the more of them that they can put in harms way, the more sympathy they get from well-meaning journalists as well as Labor supporters, Al Jazeera and the ABC. It also gives fuel to Jew haters all over the world to harass them.
> 
> The Hamas know perfectly well that firing rockets into Israel kills very few people and does little damage, but their strategy to get the Israelis to retaliate, and get world condemnation, is working perfectly. The deaths of children is a great propaganda weapon.




Yep totally agree and you can thank Israel  and Fatah for creating the conditions for the rise of Hamas


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## drsmith (8 August 2014)

Essendon claims previous Labor government pressured ASADA to fast-track doping probe,



> It alleges former sports minister Kate Lundy and her staff told investigators in June 2013 they needed an outcome, and that the process was hampering Labor's prospects of being re-elected




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-...nder-pressure-from-federal-government/5659086

Commentary on ABC radio goes further, indicating that Kate Lundy was acting under instruction from Julia Gillard.


----------



## noco (9 August 2014)

Oh my dear Cassandra Wilkinson, You have not been ready the results of what is happening in the Royal Commission into union corruption.

Is it any wonder the cost of building has been increased when one notes how these union thugs have  extorted millions of dollars from builders and the builders have paid  these thugs for peace on the site.

And Cassandra if that is not enough the Green/Labor coalition had introduced so much red and green tape into the building industry from 2007 /2013 that more cost has been added to the price of a home.....So how can you say the cost of living has not kept up with cost of building? 

Go back to school Cassandra and learn some simple arithmetic.

Homelessness Australia identifies several causes of homelessness, including family violence and poverty, but making the whole problem more acute is the growing cost of accommodation. While incomes have grown by 57 per cent in the past 10 years, the National Centre for Social and Economic Modelling’s income and wealth report shows housing prices have grown by 147 per cent. This means all forms of housing — welfare, market and community — are becoming less affordable.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...y-soaring-prices/story-fnhuliiz-1227018448584


----------



## noco (14 August 2014)

Another disaster by the Gillard Labor Government and her Fabian comrades  Kate Lundy and Jason Clare....trying to cover up their mistakes on sports drugs. ...Labor just cannot get things right and is it any wonder with talent they have.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...a-tagged-bombers/story-fnca0u4y-1227023615113

*AN independent inquiry will examine evidence of high-level political interference in the *Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority’s investigation into *Essendon, after the Federal Court hands down its finding on whether ASADA’s pursuit of the club was conducted outside the law.

Government sources last night expressed concern at the persistent involvement of Kate Lundy, Labor’s sports minister at the time, along with her advisers and senior departmental figures in discussions between ASADA and the AFL about how the investigation would run and the outcomes it could deliver.

It is understood a judicial or Senate inquiry will be established to examine whether ASADA failed to maintain its statutory independence from government after government ministers and sports chiefs were late year called to Canberra on the so-called blackest day in Australian sport*.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 August 2014)

noco said:


> Another disaster by the Gillard Labor Government and her Fabian comrades  Kate Lundy and Jason Clare....trying to cover up their mistakes on sports drugs.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...a-tagged-bombers/story-fnca0u4y-1227023615113




Gillard who ?


----------



## noco (14 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Gillard who ?




Oh dear oh me Rumpy, are you suffering from Alzheimer.....what a shame at such a young age.

Gillard as in Juliar.......No carbon tax under the Government I lead.

And here is some more to add to the Labor horror chamber.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._gillard_government_tried_to_nail_james_hird/


----------



## SirRumpole (14 August 2014)

noco said:


> Oh dear oh me Rumpy, are you suffering from Alzheimer.....what a shame at such a young age.
> 
> Gillard as in Juliar.......No carbon tax under the Government I lead.
> 
> ...




That's pretty weak noco, who really cares whether a few footballers took vitamins they shouldn't have.

Try harder next time.

:sleeping:


----------



## noco (15 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> That's pretty weak noco, who really cares whether a few footballers took vitamins they shouldn't have.
> 
> Try harder next time.
> 
> :sleeping:





No Rumpy, it was not just a few vitamins for footballers, but a Labor Party diversion from the mess they had found themselves in.....TG/LFU....but they only made it worse for themselves as has been revealed.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...overcooked-stunt/story-e6frg75f-1227023539328

Blackest day in sport’ exposed as overcooked stunt

    Dennis Shanahan, COMMENT
    The Australian
    August 14, 2014 12:00AM

    Print
    Save for later

155

*THE “blackest day” in Australian sport was always an overcooked stunt, designed to provide a distraction for the struggling leadership of Julia Gillard but which turned ugly for the then Labor government.

We now know, through evidence to the Federal Court, that it turned so ugly and was so overcooked that the government was prepared to throw taxpayers’ money towards a quick political fix before last year’s election. Of course, at the time, ministers denied any political motivation in the ramping up of the Australian Crime Commission and ASADA investigations into drug use in sport into a grand vision of organised crime infiltrating all sport.

Also, at the time, Labor MPs were reporting a furious public reaction to the overkill from then sports minister Kate Lundy and justice minister Jason Clare on sport’s darkest hour. It was angering football fans, tarnishing all sports and threatening local clubs.

Bill Shorten, then the workplace relations minister, stretched credulity when he tried to deflect the backlash by accusing the media of “casting a cloud” over Australian sport.

When challenged on the spurious claim, Shorten responded: “What I think we now need to do is let the regulatory agencies and the sporting codes get on with their business.”

We also now know that is not what happened. The Labor government made its political wishes clear, wanted the whole process “expedited” and offered financial assistance to ASADA to nail Essendon and get the whole scandal solved before the finals.

This was all to clean up a political mess Labor created, denied and finally tried to short circuit. In the scheme of things it was a lesser political folly of the Gillard government but typical of the media manipulation, denials and political distraction of the ti*


----------



## overhang (15 August 2014)

noco said:


> No Rumpy, it was not just a few vitamins for footballers, but a Labor Party diversion from the mess they had found themselves in.....TG/LFU....but they only made it worse for themselves as has been revealed.




I find it hard to believe that Labor were concerned about how this looked coming into an election.  The fact that I can't recall you or Andrew Bolt (possibly the same person) blaming Labor for the ASADA mess indicates that even Labors largest critics didn't see this as Labors issue.  Everyone in the football world was sick of hearing about it and it was certainly a dark cloud hanging over the AFL leading into the finals but everyone seemed to be blaming the AFL and ASADA rather than directly pointing the finger at the Rudd government.


----------



## noco (16 August 2014)

Judith Sloan reveals how the Gillard Government handed out lots of favors to the unions.....no wonder they reciprocated.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ill-on-the-books/story-fnbkvnk7-1227026030719


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2014)

Poor Bill.

Just when he's hoping the electorate might forget about the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd governments, Wayne Swan pops his head up.


----------



## noco (19 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> Poor Bill.
> 
> Just when he's hoping the electorate might forget about the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd governments, Wayne Swan pops his head up.




Yes Doc, Swannie is not the most boy in the camp ATM....He has dampened Labors attack on the Hockey's budget.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...un-of-labor-pain/story-fn59niix-1227028706712

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/more-of-a-goose-than-a-swan/story-e6frg6n6-1227028559251


----------



## dutchie (21 August 2014)

.......but because we created the mess,” Mr Ferguson said.

At least Martin Ferguson is honest.

He was talking about the mining tax, but he could have said it about Labor generally!


----------



## banco (22 August 2014)

Anyone else think it was strange the media didn't report that Shorten was being investigated by vic police (of course I hasten to add they have now cleared him)? It seems like a paternalistic decision was taken by the media that the public shouldn't be told as they would jump to conclusions.


----------



## noco (22 August 2014)

banco said:


> Anyone else think it was strange the media didn't report that Shorten was being investigated by vic police (of course I hasten to add they have now cleared him)? It seems like a paternalistic decision was taken by the media that the public shouldn't be told as they would jump to conclusions.




That alleged rape incident by Shorten was in the news months ago......it was also alleged Shorten impregnated one of his staff while married to his previous wife......that was well suppressed.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2014)

> Anyone else think it was strange the media didn't report that Shorten was being investigated by vic police (of course I hasten to add they have now cleared him)? It seems like a paternalistic decision was taken by the media that the public shouldn't be told as they would jump to conclusions.




Possibly those media outlets were worried about being sued if the allegations proved false, as they have been.


----------



## noco (22 August 2014)

This this goes to show how inconsistent the Labor Party is on co-payments. 

*Indeed, successive Labor governments since 1983 have supported co-payment arrangements for access to pharmaceuticals, including for pensioners and concession card holders.

The Hawke government sensibly sought to introduce a co-payment for access to medical services to put their public funding on a sustainable footing

That was good public policy then and it is good public policy now.

The only reason it ultimately did not happen then is because of internal Labor Party politics and division in government, not because the reforming Hawke government got the policy wrong.

Now, Labor is making the entirely irrational argument that a $360 price signal a year for pensioners accessing pharmaceutical products is good, but a $70 a year price signal for unlimited access to medical services is bad.

The reality is that the co-payment for access to medical services is unfinished business from the healthcare financing reform agenda initiated by the Hawke government in 1991.

There is another Labor attack on our proposal that is wrong. Labor suggests it is a tax that won’t do anything to help repair the budget as the revenue raised will be spent on medical research anyway.

That is completely inaccurate and shows what little understanding Labor has of good financial management in government.

*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...itiated-by-hawke/story-e6frg6zo-1227032425796


----------



## noco (22 August 2014)

How this "GOOSE" became known as the world's greatest treasurer I will never know....He was nothing more than an economic vandal.......Is it any wonder our economy is in such a depleted state.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ilures-laid-bare/story-e6frg71x-1227032436614

He idolised multi-millionaire US rocker Bruce Springsteen. *And he enthusiastically embraced a neo-Marxist mentality*


----------



## noco (23 August 2014)

You can’t argue with fact…This says it all really…


I DON’T THINK THE AUTHOR OF THIS CRITIQUE
WILL BE VOTING LABOR !!! NO ONE SHOULD, AFTER READING THIS.

Author unknown.




You hear that Australia? You know what that is??  It’s the sound of laughter.  Thats right.......laughter.  The entire Labor party is laughing at us.......because they actually think we are THAT stupid.   I cannot begin to explain how totally embarrassed I am as an Australian right now.

Thank you Labor for proving once again that you have absolutely no respect for the role of Prime Minister in this country, and that our highest office is nothing more than your political play thing.  What a way to tell the world that we are a complete and utter joke !!   No, it wasn't enough that you have subjected us to this three ring circus of a government.  It wasn't enough that you completely drained our finances, but now, you have gone and completely embarrassed this nation on the international stage - again!    No, you didn't do it for any greater good, no, you didn't do it in the best interests of our people, no, you did it for your own personal and political agenda.  Nothing more.  You are supposed to be representing the people of this country, not yourselves, but apparently, that is a concept that is completely lost on you.  

At this exact moment, I can barely express into words how fundamentally you disgust me!!!   Three years ago YOU, as a party, stood before the world and told us that you had to change the leader of OUR country because a ‘good government had gone bad’, and it had gone bad because of Rudd.  That was your statement, not ours, and, by the way, whilst we're on the subject,  that’s OUR job to do, not yours, you bunch of arrogant self serving hypocrites and scumbags!  
If you don't like who's PM, call a general election!

So what now Labor ?  Has Rudd suddenly come good?   What, has he found some spare time during his time on the back-bench and on his world tour to go to leadership school?  Learned how to deal with his 2 year old type tantrums?   So since then, you've been telling us and everybody with a microphone what a fantastic leader Julia was, and how she was the best person to run this country.  I swear I remember hearing that many times.  So once again Labor, was that just all more self serving lies and deceit ? Apparently so.

Do you want to know how I know, with absolute certainty?  You blokes are just a bunch of self centred, self preserving, arrogant, egotistically ENTRENCHED LIARS?  Because you just fired that 'supposed great leader’ you for three years espoused, and replaced her with the very bloke you previously told the entire world, was INCAPABLE at being a leader.  Are you kidding?  Wow!  How fundamentally bad do you need to be as a leader for that to occur?  In fact, how is that even allowed?  We have a bloke as PM that even one of your own MPs is on record as calling a ‘psychopath’. “Rudd is a ‘psychopath with a giant ego.  His chaotic and deeply offensive style of leadership, etc".  Great choice fella’s.  That’s the way to let the cream rise to the top!

No, I'll tell you what you've done.  All you have proved over the past few years is that, as a party, you really don't give a DAMN about this country, and that you are only really in this gig for yourselves - period! The number of members who have jumped ship with this change, is disgusting and indicates exactly how you feel about this country, and only goes to further re-inforce how self indulgent and totally selfish you really are.

If Labor retains even one seat at the next federal election as a result of this desperate, demeaning, and totally self-centred stunt, all it will prove to the world is just how gullible and stupid the Australian voting public is, and how easily manipulated its members can be.  Let’s never forget that this perception is a simple re-hash of  the feelings of that great ALP patriarch, Paul Keating, who, in 1993, said “Never under-estimate the stupidity of the Australian voting public”.

Shame on you Labor movement.  Shame on you, and shame on every one of your self-centred, incompetent, arrogant, and inept federal politicians!  I am sure none of you could lie straight in bed, even if your life depended upon it!!


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2014)

Well the truth of the stimulus package, that got us into this mess, is starting to come out.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-26/berg-the-cold-calculations-of-the-gfc-stimulus/5696150

The summation is interesting.

_So why did the Rudd government push so hard for stimulus? Once again, it's right there in the document: because of "the potential political costs of being seen to do nothing in the face of slower growth and rising unemployment".

Monetary policy is hardly nothing. But the government couldn't take credit for it.

The decision to deploy massive fiscal stimulus set in train all the events and personality clashes that defined Labor's term in government.

The debt racked up in those few months crippled Kevin Rudd's policy agenda, undermined every one of its future budgets, and, by liquidating the surplus in an instant, damaged its economic management credentials.

And for what? To avoid "the potential political costs of being seen to do nothing"._Chris Berg is Policy Director at the Institute of Public Affairs. Follow him at twitter.com/chrisberg. View his full profile here.

As we have said on here, it was completely unnecessary and nothing but an ego trip. 
The time we needed the stimulus if at all was in 2011, better still if we had no stimulus and no government debt and no budget deficit.
If Labor had acted maturely, they would still be in office.

Now we have them trying to tell the government how to run the country, best thing they could do is show some maturity, rather than let Palmer appear to be deal maker.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 August 2014)

> And for what? To avoid "the potential political costs of being seen to do nothing".Chris Berg is Policy Director at the Institute of Public Affairs. Follow him at twitter.com/chrisberg. View his full profile here.




Ah yes, the good old IPA. They would have been quite happy to see the country go down like the USA and the rest for the sake of their ideology.

Did the IPA ever criticise Howard/Costello for racking up those surpluses in the first place ? After all taxing more from the taxpayer than you give them back is theft surely ?


----------



## Tisme (27 August 2014)

It was inevitable that an increasingly hostile and impudent govt would spawn a vociferous Sir Knight to lead the nation out of the Feudal darkness of servitude the working class were headed for. Trouble is the trusty steed appeared to set the pace, Kevin was locked into the saddle and the stable boys couldn't keep up.  

Maybe next time the Labs get in they might kerb their enthusiasm, correct the social injustice they were hired to fix and then steady as she goes with growth agendas and less nanny state stuff.


----------



## drsmith (27 August 2014)

Tisme said:


> Maybe next time the Labs get in they might kerb their enthusiasm, correct the social injustice they were hired to fix and then steady as she goes with growth agendas and less nanny state stuff.



They would crawl back into bed with the Greens, without hesitation.


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Ah yes, the good old IPA. They would have been quite happy to see the country go down like the USA and the rest for the sake of their ideology.?




Actually Chris Berg has been very scathing of the coalition, if anything I would see him as left wing




SirRumpole said:


> Did the IPA ever criticise Howard/Costello for racking up those surpluses in the first place ? After all taxing more from the taxpayer than you give them back is theft surely ?




As you say, taxing more from taxpayers than you give back is theft surely?

That is why Howard/ Costello gave tax cuts, good to see you are finally seeing sense.
Now all you have to do is convince Sydboy.


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> They would crawl back into bed with the Greens, without hesitation.




They would crawl into bed with any political persuasion, the one thing Shorten is showing at the moment, is they have no conscience.


----------



## Tisme (27 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> They would crawl back into bed with the Greens, without hesitation.




As would the LNP, if only the Greens would stop rejecting their advances.  Everyone knows the Greens are just a breakaway group from traditional Labor, it just happened without schisms and acrimonious splits; the LNP created the nonsense about insidious coalitions, while it ignored it's own nuptials of City and Country parties. 

I listened this morning at our Treasurer setting up his dilemma as some sought of evil conspiracy with an imperative of his own making and blaming Labor for not easing his duress (and reputation) by voting in obedience to his maleficence to the working poor and carless unemployed. All the Labor party are guilty of is carrying on the tradition of obstructionism started by the previous opposition (constitutionally the* alternative *govt).


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2014)

Tisme said:


> As would the LNP, if only the Greens would stop rejecting their advances.  Everyone knows the Greens are just a breakaway group from traditional Labor, it just happened without schisms and acrimonious splits; the LNP created the nonsense about insidious coalitions, while it ignored it's own nuptials of City and Country parties.
> 
> I listened this morning at our Treasurer setting up his dilemma as some sought of evil conspiracy with an imperative of his own making and blaming Labor for not easing his duress (and reputation) by voting in obedience to his maleficence to the working poor and carless unemployed. All the Labor party are guilty of is carrying on the tradition of obstructionism started by the previous opposition (constitutionally the* alternative *govt).




Good to see you back, look forward to the repartee.


----------



## drsmith (27 August 2014)

Tisme said:


> As would the LNP, if only the Greens would stop rejecting their advances.



I can't ever see either of these sides ever coming to a formal power sharing agreement as the Gillard government did with the Greens after the 2010 election.

Ideologically, they are way too far apart.


----------



## noco (27 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> I can't ever see either of these sides ever coming to a formal power sharing agreement as the Gillard government did with the Greens after the 2010 election.
> 
> Ideologically, they are way too far apart.




Do you think so Doc?......I firmly believe both the Greens and the left wing socialist Labor Party follow the Fabian rules......I cannot see any difference.

Lea Rhianna is a confessed communist and and so is Gillard.......Bowen ans Macklin are members of the Fabian Society which originated in Russia.....Gough Whitlam is still their patron.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2014)

noco said:


> Do you think so Doc?......I firmly believe both the Greens and the left wing socialist Labor Party follow the Fabian rules......I cannot see any difference.
> 
> Lea Rhianna is a confessed communist and and so is Gillard.......Bowen ans Macklin are members of the Fabian Society which originated in Russia.....Gough Whitlam is still their patron.




Why is the Fabian society attractive to middle aged women like Gillard, Macklin and Lee Rhiannon ?

this may tell you 

http://www.fabianforte.net/


----------



## Tisme (28 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Why is the Fabian society attractive to middle aged women like Gillard, Macklin and Lee Rhiannon ?
> 
> this may tell you
> 
> http://www.fabianforte.net/




Did Fabian have a ducktail...I can't remember?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2014)

Tisme said:


> Did Fabian have a ducktail...I can't remember?




I don't know about the duck's tail but I think his left wing was pretty strong


I was more interested in Olivia Newton John or Judith Durham in those days


----------



## Tisme (28 August 2014)

I loved the way the girl friends would get agitated whenever the subject of how attractive Olivia was . Jealousy has a wonderful way of making a date more fulfilling


----------



## noco (28 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Why is the Fabian society attractive to middle aged women like Gillard, Macklin and Lee Rhiannon ?
> 
> this may tell you
> 
> http://www.fabianforte.net/




Holy hell......is that where the Fabian Society originated....well I'll be damned and all this time I thought it was an off shoot of Communism.

Rumpy, you learn something new every day...


----------



## noco (28 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know about the duck's tail but I think his left wing was pretty strong
> 
> 
> I was more interested in Olivia Newton John or Judith Durham in those days




They are all bums with two left wings.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2014)

noco said:


> Holy hell......is that where the Fabian Society originated....well I'll be damned and all this time I thought it was an off shoot of Communism.
> 
> Rumpy, you learn something new every day...




Don't mention it old chap, glad to oblige


----------



## Tisme (28 August 2014)

noco said:


> Holy hell......is that where the Fabian Society originated....well I'll be damned and all this time I thought it was an off shoot of Communism.
> 
> Rumpy, you learn something new every day...




See what asking the right people can achieve.


----------



## dutchie (2 September 2014)

Labor looking after the workers....

Royal commission report: Four insulation deaths blamed on Rudd Labor government.

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...labor-government/story-fnii5s3x-1227044392716

.... and some people want them back.......sigh


----------



## noco (2 September 2014)

I listened to that rat bag Shorten on ABC 2 this morning raving on about that bad boy Abbott taxing superannuation contributions...ripping it out of peoples savings......he will say anything in a desperate attempt to discredit Abbott who is trying to clean up Labors economic mess.......he is also attempting to divert the attention from the popularity that Abbott has gained in his international leadership....Shorten just can't take it so he sets out to discredit Abbott.

The taxation of superannuation is a complex arrangement with concessional and non concessional considerations.

It was designed by the Labor Party in an attempt to disallow large self contributions in excess to avoid taxation.....It was a shame Shorten did not explain the details instead of making people believe Abbott was is ripping them off. 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_Superannuation_in_Australia

Tax on contributions

Superannuation contributions are split into two classes - Concessional and Non-Concessional.[1] Concessional contributions (sometimes referred to as 'before-tax' contributions) are contributions for which someone (such as an employer) has received a tax deduction.[2] Concessional contributions include Superannuation Guarantee contributions, Salary Sacrifice contributions, other employer contributions and contributions claimed as a personal tax deduction. Concessional contributions are taxed in the fund. While Taxable Components do not change the tax payable by the super fund, they are a factor in calculating the tax payable on withdrawals from a super fund. Non-Concessional Contributions (sometime referred to as 'undeducted' or 'after-tax' contributions) are contributions for which no-one has received a tax deduction. Non-Concessional Contributions are, generally, not taxed in the fund.[3]

Concessional Contributions, provided they are under the Concessional Contributions Cap, are taxed at 15% in the fund.[4] The Concessional Contributions Cap for the 2013/14 Financial Year is $ 25,000, except for people who were over the age of 59 as at 30 June 2013 - for whom the cap is $ 35,000.[5] Exceeding this cap will trigger Excess Contributions Tax of an additional 31.5% on the amount above the cap, on top of the 15% already applying to Concessional Contributions.[6]

Non-Concessional Contributions, provided they are under the Non-Concessional Contributions Cap, are not taxed in the fund.[7] However if the Non-Concessional cap of $150,000 (or $450,000 in a three-year period under the Bring-Forward Rule[8]) is exceeded a tax rate of 46.5% applies to the excess.[9]

And this what Shorten is raving on about.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ax-budget-repair/story-fn59niix-1227044429335


----------



## Tisme (2 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> Labor looking after the workers....
> 
> Royal commission report: Four insulation deaths blamed on Rudd Labor government.
> 
> ...





the only ones who believe the drivel of a predetermined outcome are the tragics who have permanent LNP hook in their mouths.

How long do we have to wait until the elected govt gets on and governs, instead of playing opposition benchers? The tragedy is the callous use of cronies and rusted ons under the veneer of commissions of inquiry who continue the agony of the relatives who lost their loved ones, under the guise there is some singular or plural minister on the wrong side of the political track to blame.

It is a tactic being used broad spectrum by the LNP to deflect attention way from the lazy ineptitude we are all witnessing and half of us are trying to blinker. It embarrassing to ponder how we managed to drag ourselves down to a level where the ministers act like the B group at primary school whining about the do something A listers.... and it only took about 18 years and two whiney girlyboys in Abbott and Costello to do it.

Think of those poor LNP believers who actually thought they could enter politics and do good by Australians, but instead they are become hollowed out defeated shells like Malcolm. At least with the ALP the candidates are blooded in rite of passage rituals that ensures you see what you are going to get .... not necessarily tasty either.


----------



## dutchie (2 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> the only ones who believe the drivel of a predetermined outcome are the tragics who have permanent LNP hook in their mouths.
> 
> How long do we have to wait until the elected govt gets on and governs, instead of playing opposition benchers? The tragedy is the callous use of cronies and rusted ons under the veneer of commissions of inquiry who continue the agony of the relatives who lost their loved ones, under the guise there is some singular or plural minister on the wrong side of the political track to blame.
> 
> ...




Its OK if four men die and 1000 people drown

"Tragedies happen, accidents happen"


----------



## Tisme (2 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> Its OK if four men die and 1000 people drown
> 
> "Tragedies happen, accidents happen"




They shouldn't have happened if the contractors had carried out the specific safety instructions issued regularly by the Electrical Safety office in Queensland and the workers had adhered to the general safety induction procedures. 

The procedural reminders  were clearly outlined at the time by regular email "e-alerts" from the Attorney General's dept ... I have copies of them still, but I bet none of that was allowed into the inquiry as evidence.

Let's have one on Howard rushing into war when our own experts said there were no WMDs. 

Here's one of the alerts:

_Fatality of ceiling insulation installer - 4 February 2010

The Electrical Safety Office (ESO) and Workplace Health and Safety Queensland (WHSQ) are investigating the fatality of a ceiling insulation installer which occurred on 4 February 2010 at Millaa Millaa, in far north Queensland.

An investigation is currently underway. Initial findings suggest that a metal staple used to fix foil insulation to the ceiling structure may have pierced a live electrical cable causing the insulation to become energised. This is the third electrocution death of an installation installer in the last four months.

*Insulation installers have previously been warned of the dangers associated with installing ceiling insulation.* The information contained in the Department’s fact-sheet, www.deir.qld.gov.au/workplace/resources/pdfs/alert-insulation_installing.pdf, should be followed in all cases. In particular, the information on turning off electricity and wearing adequate personal protection, including footwear and clothing, are fundamental in providing safe working arrangements.

Installers have also been advised of the additional safety requirements introduced by the Electrical Safety (Installation of Ceiling Insulation) *Notice 2009 which came into effect from 1 November 2009.* This Ministerial Notice requires that metal or other conductive fastenings are not used; that onsite risk assessments are undertaken and documented; and that installers comply with the Wiring Rules requirements for clearances of insulation material around recessed downlights.

WHSQ and ESO Inspectors are undertaking audits of insulation installers as part of an ongoing operation to ensure compliance with the requirements of both occupational health and safety and electrical safety legislation and in particular with the safety conditions contained in the Ministerial Notice. To date more than 500 such audits have been completed.

Any insulation installer entering a roof space must conduct a risk assessment to determine possible hazards prior to starting work. Information on risk assessments is available at: www.deir.qld.gov.au/workplace/law/codes/riskman/index.htm. A risk assessment template required under the Federal Government Home Insulation Program can be found at www.environment.gov.au/energyeffici...ublications/pubs/risk-assessment-template.pdf.

For further information on electrical safety information visit: www.fairandsafework.qld.gov.au/electricalsafety or telephone 1300 650 662.

Peter Lamont
Executive Director
Electrical Safety Office

5 February 2010_


----------



## drsmith (5 September 2014)

Conversations with Richard Fidler from Tuesday 2 September 2014, Paul Kelly on his recent book about the Rudd/Gillard governments.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/09/02/4079239.htm?site=conversations


----------



## noco (11 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> Conversations with Richard Fidler from Tuesday 2 September 2014, Paul Kelly on his recent book about the Rudd/Gillard governments.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/09/02/4079239.htm?site=conversations




Niki Savva also sums up who is the hopeless party with the Labor Party stating they had reached a surplus in 2012/13. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...by-labor-forever/story-fnahw9xv-1227054441484


----------



## SirRumpole (11 September 2014)

noco said:


> I listened to that rat bag Shorten on ABC 2 this morning ...




If you can't be civil about your anti hero, please don't complain about others denigrating Abbott & co personally.


----------



## noco (11 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If you can't be civil about your anti hero, please don't complain about others denigrating Abbott & co personally.




As far as I am concerned it is OK to talk about Shorten or the Labor Party so long as it is not in any way personal about you or other ASF members......I know I have been called some names at times but it is like pouring water on a duck's back with me....I have been called some names at times because of my strong views and when some ASF members don't like my views, they then attack my personality in an attempt to discredit my character....Go right ahead....I am too old in the tooth to be worried about it.


----------



## noco (12 September 2014)

How long will Shorten be able to hold his position a Opposition leader?

He has received so much criticism over his Blah Blah on the back of the open truck at the Adelaide ship yards...Even that left wing socialist Barrie Cassidy had a few words to say about his stupidity.

He is living in the past and should get over it....anyway he was not even born then....I must admit, I was quite biased against the Japanese for several years having lived through WW11 and saw how barbaric they were at the time.....I lost a cousin to them and an uncle who was a Japanese POW.......but they are a different race now....I have forgiven them but not forgotten and Shorten should do the same in the National interest.    


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...bmarine-purchase/story-fn558imw-1227055690225


----------



## Tisme (12 September 2014)

noco said:


> How long will Shorten be able to hold his position a Opposition leader?




It's almost like he's all spent and treading water until the body mends and the hubris returns. It was rather 1930's that yelling from a flat top.


----------



## noco (12 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> It's almost like he's all spent and treading water until the body mends and the hubris returns. It was rather 1930's that yelling from a flat top.




Yes it brings back memories of politicians speaking on a soap box on street corners.


----------



## noco (13 September 2014)

noco said:


> How long will Shorten be able to hold his position a Opposition leader?
> 
> He has received so much criticism over his Blah Blah on the back of the open truck at the Adelaide ship yards...Even that left wing socialist Barrie Cassidy had a few words to say about his stupidity.
> 
> ...




Paul Kelly sums up Shortens hysterical rhetoric from the back of an open flat top truck......he told the union audience several porkies which did not hold water and in particular the security risk.

Next thing he will be telling the unions, Abbott wants to put port holes in the subs to let the air in or Shortens hot air out........ya just gotta see the funny side of his argument 




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...each-of-security/story-e6frg74x-1227057090911

*The upshot is another Liberal-Labor policy and philosophical clash. Opposition Leader Bill Shorten’s near hysterical reaction is his latest manifestation of over-reach. It is becoming a Shorten characteristic.

Shorten says Abbott’s decision is “dangerous” for national security. He told workers in Adelaide that Abbott was going after “every one of you”, that he was “contracting out the defence of Australia”, that he had allowed the bookkeepers to take over and that he led a “despicable, cynical lying mob” on this issue. This is more than a touch mad.

He said of Abbott when you put “all our eggs in a foreign country’s basket, create jobs in Japanese dockyards” then you are undermining Australian national security. This pitch is one of the oldest and most infamous invocations of protectionism. The xenophobia was scarcely below the surface.

The more Shorten’s claim is scrutinised, the more ludicrous it looks.*


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2014)

I didn't know if this should be posted here, or in the joke thread.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-...for-stripping-treasury-responsibility/5735132

Obviously Chris hasn't got anything intelligent to add to the current fiscal situation, that they left behind.

Rather than engage the Government in economic debate, they are ridiculing the department they quoted endlessly while in Government.

Oh dear, what a sad situation.


----------



## noco (18 September 2014)

Bill Shorten is the leader who cannot lead......He is saying one thing and 4 other Labor MP's saying the opposite.

Shorten, does not who he is or what he stands for.

Geez, I do wish he would talk to Uncle Bob and Paul.....but he does not want to listen to them.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-who-cannot-lead/story-fnihsr9v-1227061902328

*LABOR leader Bill Shorten still looks healthy from the outside. Isn’t his party ahead in the polls?

But look closer and the rot is starting to peek through.

In fact, Shorten seems the leader who cannot lead. He does not know where to take his troops and now isn’t sure they’d follow him anyway.

Already four MPs, including two frontbenchers, are making him look weak by criticising what he’s actually backing – the Abbott Government’s war on the Islamic State.

Shorten swore this intervention would be beyond politics, but then Kim Carr, Alannah MacTiernan, Melissa Parke and Sue Lines made a liar of him, accusing the Government of playing at soldiers for the votes.

How could they do this to their leader? Thanks to them, Shorten on Tuesday had to bat away journalists’ questions about Labor disunity.*

And from one readers comment.

*Joy 43 minutes ago

@deb And this is what Jones "thinks about" Shorten 

In an interview in May 2014 Alan Jones and Paul Sheehan arrived at the same opinion of Bill Shorten 

"We have an opposition leader willing to sacrifice the economy for the good of his career"*


----------



## Tisme (18 September 2014)

noco said:


> Bill Shorten is the leader who cannot lead......He is saying one thing and 4 other Labor MP's saying the opposite.
> 
> Shorten, does not who he is or what he stands for.
> 
> ...




While it does seem very apparent Bill is taking a long  sabbatical with his grey matter, it's hardly sensible to take anything Bolt has to say about anything non Liberal Party as anything but vitriol and incendiaries ....a newspaper industry troll as it were and a not too bright one either.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> While it does seem very apparent Bill is taking a long  sabbatical with his grey matter, it's hardly sensible to take anything Bolt has to say about anything non Liberal Party as anything but vitriol and incendiaries ....a newspaper industry troll as it were and a not too bright one either.




Two years out from an election is too far to be counting out Shorten just yet.

Abbott went into a long sulk after he lost the 2010 election and he came back (more due to Labor's mismanagement than his own brilliance), so I expect Shorten and his party will be publicly whinging, but privately have their heads down working out policies and tactics which no doubt we will see nearer the election..


----------



## dutchie (18 September 2014)

"We have an opposition willing to sacrifice the economy for the good of the Union led party"


----------



## noco (18 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> "We have an opposition willing to sacrifice the economy for the good of the Union led party"




It is in the Fabian Society's DNA to ruin the economy of Australia and the shadow treasurer Chris Bowen is a member.

I have posted the ideology of the Fabians on two previous posts.


----------



## noco (23 September 2014)

Bill Shorten should cleanse his brain from being a union hack to becoming a Green/Labor coalition leader.

Does he have what it takes to be an alternative Prime Minister?......I doubt it very much.

He is saying one thing and his troops are saying something different and does not appear to have their backing.

I believe his term as Labor leader will be short lived.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-japan-relations/story-fnbcok0h-1227057085610


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2014)

Labor was going to support a PUP senate enquiry into the Newman government until,



> Labor was last night forced into an embarrassing backdown after the Coalition secured changes to the inquiry so it would start with the Ms Bligh’s time in power.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nt-hits-dead-end/story-e6frg6n6-1227068066959


----------



## noco (18 October 2014)

The Labor party is suffering from the Plibervola virus.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...raldsun/comments/plibervola_virus_hits_labor/

*The virus is believed to have mutated in the 1970s in the Democratic Republic of Marrickville in a freakish contact between batty undergraduates and hard-core Marxist union enforcers, or apes, which in turn infected the gibbering idealists of the Greens. How the virus crossed the species barrier to infect normal, sane, rational human beings is not known, although the first identifiable case has long been rumoured to be a large man with a booming voice known only as Gough.*


----------



## Tisme (20 October 2014)

noco said:


> The Labor party is suffering from the Plibervola virus.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...raldsun/comments/plibervola_virus_hits_labor/
> ...




The indefatigable Andrew Bolt and his paralytic diatribe of hate.


----------



## noco (20 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> The indefatigable Andrew Bolt and his paralytic diatribe of hate.




NO..NO..NO..That was a comment from Rowan Dean and not Andrew Bolt......you are bit too quick to criticize Andrew Bolt.


----------



## Tisme (20 October 2014)

noco said:


> NO..NO..NO..That was a comment from Rowan Dean and not Andrew Bolt......you are bit too quick to criticize Andrew Bolt.




Do you blame me!

I am so averse to that fellow and his primary school antics, that it's hard to get past the perfunctory fatigue and malaise I feel when I see his name. If he'd only grow into a mature man I might have some time for him.


----------



## noco (20 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> Do you blame me!
> 
> I am so averse to that fellow and his primary school antics, that it's hard to get past the perfunctory fatigue and malaise I feel when I see his name. If he'd only grow into a mature man I might have some time for him.




I guess with those type of comments, it emphasis is on the fact that the truth does hurt some people.


----------



## Tisme (20 October 2014)

Playing the man Noco?


----------



## noco (20 October 2014)

dutchie said:


> "We have an opposition willing to sacrifice the economy for the good of the Union led party"




Shorten and his Fabian comrades have their heads in the sands with their a$se in the air blowing methane gas in the air.

They are not assisting in repairing the damage they have caused....only self interest........certainly no national interest.......They are determined to see the current government struggle to balance the budget so they can gloat.


----------



## Tisme (21 October 2014)

noco said:


> Shorten and his Fabian comrades have their heads in the sands with their a$se in the air blowing methane gas in the air.
> 
> They are not assisting in repairing the damage they have caused....only self interest........certainly no national interest.......They are determined to see the current government struggle to balance the budget so they can gloat.




I think it was invariable that the obstructionism and bloody mindedness of Abbott and Coy while in opposition would come back to haunt them. 

It may have been a hard lesson for the self appointed guardians of Australian moral conscience to learn, but playing the game by traditional rules while allowing new aggressive rules to flourish means the ALP lost big time....adapt or die.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a warrior king arise to take the ALP to the polls.


----------



## noco (21 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think it was invariable that the obstructionism and bloody mindedness of Abbott and Coy while in opposition would come back to haunt them.
> 
> It may have been a hard lesson for the self appointed guardians of Australian moral conscience to learn, but playing the game by traditional rules while allowing new aggressive rules to flourish means the ALP lost big time....adapt or die.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to see a warrior king arise to take the ALP to the polls.




But in all fairness, I do believe the coalition in opposition at the time had good reason to oppose some of Green/Labor's outlandish proposals where money was wasted.......it was done in the nations best interest, however, it made no difference because Rudd/Gillard/Rudd had a majority in the senate.

The Green/Labor opposition today are opposing measure to bring the budget under control which in my mind is not in the best interest of the nation.


----------



## noco (21 October 2014)

More shocking waste of tax payers money by another incompetent Labor Government in Queensland this time.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...097102925?sv=43afd0040ed4d64ff1cc009d79071edd


----------



## drsmith (22 October 2014)

A spat has broken out between Labor and the Greens over the legacy of Gough,



> 10:52am: And the legacy war begins.
> 
> Labor is extremely agitated about this image that was circulated on social media by NSW Greens Senator Lee Rhiannon yesterday.
> 
> ...




Which party was it again that jumped into bed with the Greens to form government in 2010 ?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...tics-live-october-22-2014-20141022-3ikx6.html


----------



## SirRumpole (22 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> A spat has broken out between Labor and the Greens over the legacy of Gough,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can't help feeling that if a photo of Bob Brown appeared on a Labor Party banner, the Greens would be highly offended.

The Greens should show respect for Gough some other way.


----------



## drsmith (22 October 2014)

They're sticking to their guns,



> Deputy Greens leader Adam Bandt defended the decision after the image was widely distributed by him and his colleagues on social media yesterday.
> 
> "One of the things about yesterday, especially in Parliament, was that it crossed party political lines - there were people from all sides paying tribute to him," Mr Bandt said.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-22/labor-accuses-greens-of-grave-robbing-whitlam/5832482


----------



## Tisme (22 October 2014)

noco said:


> But in all fairness, I do believe the coalition in opposition at the time had good reason to oppose some of Green/Labor's outlandish proposals where money was wasted.......it was done in the nations best interest, however, it made no difference because Rudd/Gillard/Rudd had a majority in the senate.
> 
> The Green/Labor opposition today are opposing measure to bring the budget under control which in my mind is not in the best interest of the nation.




No doubt the LNP have some good strategies, but their tactics in implementing those strategies is rather poor it seems. The LNP did support many Rudd/Gillard bills, but as usual the press were only interested in the conflict side of things as they probably continue to be.

My guess is that if the LNP politicians, who really want to get things done, manage to coerce there senior members into dropping the blame game and negotiating as mature adults with the ALP, things might just turn around and the public might actually start to get behind the plan....whatever that is?


----------



## Tisme (22 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> They're sticking to their guns,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-22/labor-accuses-greens-of-grave-robbing-whitlam/5832482




If McDonalds put their golden arches on a Greens promo there would be howls of protest all the way from Nimbin to the moon.


----------



## Tink (24 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> A spat has broken out between Labor and the Greens over the legacy of Gough,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nothing surprises me the extent the Greens go to.....


----------



## noco (24 October 2014)

Tink said:


> Nothing surprises me the extent the Greens go to.....




The Greens are all Fabians and so was Gough, so I guess they have some claim to the connection in the Fabian family.


----------



## noco (28 October 2014)

This one has to take the cake and Richard Marles has been given the wooden spoon.....What a dunce.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...re-morrisons-tko/story-fnihsr9v-1227104070048


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2014)

Some people ask, when are we going to stop blaming Labor for the fiscal situation we find ourselves in?

I guess it will be, when the reperocussions of their poor knee jerk policies, stop rolling in.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...hes-class-action-over-live-export-ban/5845650


----------



## noco (28 October 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Some people ask, when are we going to stop blaming Labor for the fiscal situation we find ourselves in?
> 
> I guess it will be, when the reperocussions of their poor knee jerk policies, stop rolling in.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...hes-class-action-over-live-export-ban/5845650




What else could we expect from a party run by ex union hacks with only a half a brain between the lot of them.

We will be paying for their mistakes for years to come........6 years of disgraceful socialist economic mismanagement will be another 10 years of hard labour for the taxpayers to pay back the credit card.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 October 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Some people ask, when are we going to stop blaming Labor for the fiscal situation we find ourselves in?
> 
> I guess it will be, when the reperocussions of their poor knee jerk policies, stop rolling in.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...hes-class-action-over-live-export-ban/5845650




Yes, pretty dumb. 
And the Tattersall's fiasco in Victoria is also their fault.


----------



## Tink (28 October 2014)

Yes, I saw that too, Knobby, and was going to mention it in the election thread.

This is the problem that people keep forgetting, that they spend, and by the time the Libs get there, they have no money.

Labor are hopeless, and with Greens on their heels.


----------



## dutchie (29 October 2014)

Senator Nova Peris sought taxpayers’ money to help her to carry out a ‘freaky’ extra-marital sexual tryst with Olympic medallist Ato Boldon 


http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...llist-ato-boldon/story-fnjwnhzf-1227105313394


Julia's pathetic reign continues to cost us money.

Great Captains Pick!


----------



## noco (29 October 2014)

dutchie said:


> Senator Nova Peris sought taxpayers’ money to help her to carry out a ‘freaky’ extra-marital sexual tryst with Olympic medallist Ato Boldon
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...llist-ato-boldon/story-fnjwnhzf-1227105313394
> ...




And Shorten would not comment....if it had been a female Liberal Senator, Shorten would have been calling for her scalp....... What a weakling he is......a coward would perhaps be more fitting.


----------



## Julia (29 October 2014)

I didn't support Julia Gillard's dumping of Trish Crossin to make way for Peris as her "captain's pick", but I question the publishing of her emails.

I'm not clear as to what she has actually done wrong (other than behave in an embarrassing manner).
From a brief reading of the article, her paramour did actually fulfil the function he was paid for.

Politics is a very dirty business, but shouldn't there be a point where such personal expression is allowed to remain private?   She is hardly the first person to engage in an extra-marital liaison and won't be the last.

I have no idea how good at her job Ms Peris is, but that is what should interest the public, not the salacious details of some tawdry affair.


----------



## Tisme (29 October 2014)

Julia said:


> I'm not clear as to what she has actually done wrong (other than behave in an embarrassing manner).
> From a brief reading of the article, her paramour did actually fulfil the function he was paid for.
> 
> .




The LNP are hardly the paragons of virtue when it comes to their pinky bits. One would have to go a long way to outdo cramming testicles in a wine glass and publishing the pic.


----------



## noco (29 October 2014)

Julia said:


> I didn't support Julia Gillard's dumping of Trish Crossin to make way for Peris as her "captain's pick", but I question the publishing of her emails.
> 
> I'm not clear as to what she has actually done wrong (other than behave in an embarrassing manner).
> From a brief reading of the article, her paramour did actually fulfil the function he was paid for.
> ...




I guess it is a fact of life when you are in eye of the public, you have to keep your nose clean........the question on the table is did she have an ulterior motive in bringing that guy out to Australia at taxpayers expense?

Yes you are right regarding politicians engaging in extra-marital affairs......It is a matter as to whether it can be keep under the hat or not?


----------



## Calliope (29 October 2014)

noco said:


> And Shorten would not comment....if it had been a female Liberal Senator, Shorten would have been calling for her scalp....... What a weakling he is......a coward would perhaps be more fitting.




His comment was;

“She’s rejected any wrongdoing. I take Senator Peris at her word,” Mr Shorten told Fairfax Radio today.

“I’ve found Senator Peris in my dealings with her to be an honest person.”

Bill doesn't see any problems in how taxpayer's money is used, and of course Nova Peris Kneebone did contribute her share to the enticement of Mr Boldon to come here. She told him;

"You should be compensated for your long haul travels across the pacific. sexually of course …"


----------



## Macquack (29 October 2014)

noco said:


> the question on the table is did she have an ulterior motive in bringing that guy out to Australia at taxpayers expense?




Nova Peris was not even a politician at the time.

Tony Abbott and others have “ulterior motive/s” in undertaking personal activities at "taxpayers expense” all the time.

For example, Abbott made a trip to Port Macquarie to compete in the “Ironman” event and billed it all up to the taxpayer. No questions asked?

What a beat up.


----------



## noco (29 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> Nova Peris was not even a politician at the time.
> 
> Tony Abbott and others have “ulterior motive/s” in undertaking personal activities at "taxpayers expense” all the time.
> 
> ...




Do you have some proof of your statement?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2014)

Julia said:


> I didn't support Julia Gillard's dumping of Trish Crossin to make way for Peris as her "captain's pick", but I question the publishing of her emails.
> 
> I'm not clear as to what she has actually done wrong (other than behave in an embarrassing manner).
> From a brief reading of the article, her paramour did actually fulfil the function he was paid for.
> ...




Absolutely right, and the even more insidious aspect to this saga is how these allegedly private emails got into the public domain. I doubt if either the sender or the recipient would have released them, so this falls into the black hole of electronic intelligence gathering, not in the cause of national security, but to embarrass one's political adversaries.

Maybe people who had no doubts about the integrity of the security services in regard to protecting personal privacy should think again.


----------



## Calliope (29 October 2014)

> Like the emails of Professor Barry Spurr that the Left have trawled through, those of Labor Senator Nova Peris are private.
> 
> Like the emails of Spurr, the emails of Peris could be seen to express private racist thoughts.
> 
> But unlike the emails of Spurr, those of Peris reveal a matter of great public interest - the apparent use of public money for a private purpose. So let’s see if the ABC and Fairfax go to town on Peris as they have with the conservative Spurr:




Peris is a credit to the Labor party. Gillard obviously knew she was a smart cookie when she used her "Captain's Choice" to preselect her for the Senate, and now she has been endorsed by Bill Shorten and Penny Wong. These guys know talent, for screwing the taxpayer, when they see it.


----------



## Macquack (30 October 2014)

noco said:


> Do you have some proof of your statement?




"Tony Abbott defends claiming travel expenses for Ironman event"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...onman-event-20131008-2v58a.html#ixzz3HcimcNkT


----------



## Macquack (30 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely right, and the even more insidious aspect to this saga is how these allegedly private emails got into the public domain. I doubt if either the sender or the recipient would have released them, so this falls into the black hole of electronic intelligence gathering, not in the cause of national security, but to embarrass one's political adversaries.
> 
> Maybe people who had no doubts about the integrity of the security services in regard to protecting personal privacy should think again.




How the "News of the World" phone hacking scandal is quickly forgotten.

Murdoch and his News Corp rag the NT News should 'put up' the source of the leaked emails  or 'shut up'.


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> "Tony Abbott defends claiming travel expenses for Ironman event"
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...onman-event-20131008-2v58a.html#ixzz3HcimcNkT




Actually a Prime Minister, or any minister, claiming travel expenses to participate in a physicaly demanding sporting event, should be applauded.
Most of the fat B@stards claim expense for eating or attending as a spectator. Maybe if more of them competed in sporting events it would encourage the general public to get of their ar$es.

It is weird, IMO, that we jump on the only politician that used army barracks as accomodation, rather than buy an investment lodgings. Talk about tall poppy syndrome or inferiority syndrome, who knows which.


----------



## noco (30 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> "Tony Abbott defends claiming travel expenses for Ironman event"
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...onman-event-20131008-2v58a.html#ixzz3HcimcNkT




*
Mr Abbott recently said the Pollie Pedal event had raised more than $3 million for charity since it was started in 1998, including this year’s earnings of $750,000 for Carers Australia and $140,000 for the Manly Women’s Shelter. He said he met dedicated carers and spoke of the importance of the National Disability Insurance Schem*e.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...onman-event-20131008-2v58a.html#ixzz3HcncbHZQ


----------



## Macquack (30 October 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Actually a Prime Minister, or any minister, *claiming travel expenses to participate *in a physicaly demanding sporting event, *should be applauded*.




Yeah sptrawler, what if Abbott had not claimed travel expenses, would you give him a knighthood or what?


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2014)

noco said:


> *
> Mr Abbott recently said the Pollie Pedal event had raised more than $3 million for charity since it was started in 1998, including this year’s earnings of $750,000 for Carers Australia and $140,000 for the Manly Women’s Shelter. He said he met dedicated carers and spoke of the importance of the National Disability Insurance Schem*e.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...onman-event-20131008-2v58a.html#ixzz3HcncbHZQ




Don't worry noco, McQuack and Rumpole have short term memory loss, they are forgetting the Canberra riot caused by a direct phone call from the P.M's staff.

As McQuack said, "how short memories are"


----------



## Macquack (30 October 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Don't worry noco, McQuack and Rumpole have short term memory loss, they are forgetting the Canberra riot caused by a direct phone call from the P.M's staff.
> 
> As McQuack said, "how short memories are"




What has that got to do with Nova Peris, absolutely nothing.


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> Yeah sptrawler, what if Abbott had not claimed travel expenses, would you give him a knighthood or what?




That isn't the question, what do you give all the rest of them that claim expenses, for eatathons and wine swilling tours?


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> What has that got to do with Nova Peris, absolutely nothing.




Well it certainly has as much relavence as your reference to Abbotts triathalon.


----------



## bellenuit (31 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely right, and the even more insidious aspect to this saga is how these allegedly private emails got into the public domain. I doubt if either the sender or the recipient would have released them, so this falls into the black hole of electronic intelligence gathering, not in the cause of national security, but to embarrass one's political adversaries.
> 
> Maybe people who had no doubts about the integrity of the security services in regard to protecting personal privacy should think again.




My understanding from listening to a part of her speech to the senate today is that the emails were leaked by someone who has been blackmailing her over some custody issue. No government involvement. She even thanked members from BOTH sides for their support over the past 24 hours.


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2014)

bellenuit said:


> My understanding from listening to a part of her speech to the senate today is that the emails were leaked by someone who has been blackmailing her over some custody issue. No government involvement. She even thanked members from BOTH sides for their support over the past 24 hours.





Awww come on, can't the head bangers blame Tony, Jeez that's not fair.lol


----------



## noco (6 November 2014)

How can the Labor accept this dirty money from these CFMEU thugs who bribe and obtain money through extortion and death threats.

This makes the Labor as corrupt as the CMFEU.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...113794544?sv=add64f117719e66b143a1e04f1bd3296

*WHY is Labor taking money from a union buried under allegations of thuggery, blackmail, intimidation, death threats and links to organised crime?

Why did Labor under Julia Gillard agree to get workplace police off the back of this union, the CFMEU?

And why does Victorian Labor under Daniel Andrews still let the CFMEU help decide party policy and candidates?*


----------



## Tink (6 November 2014)

Well said, noco.

I just can't believe Victorians considering voting for them.

Does Andrews even speak? Of course not, the unions speak for him.


----------



## Tisme (6 November 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Actually a Prime Minister, or any minister, claiming travel expenses to participate in a physicaly demanding sporting event, should be applauded.
> Most of the fat B@stards claim expense for eating or attending as a spectator. Maybe if more of them competed in sporting events it would encourage the general public to get of their ar$es.
> 
> It is weird, IMO, that we jump on the only politician that used army barracks as accomodation, rather than buy an investment lodgings. Talk about tall poppy syndrome or inferiority syndrome, who knows which.




That has to be a tongue in cheek post.....

The trouble is that there are actually people out there who believe that is it not reprehensible to accept cudos for charity when you are actually selling your services. Equally, because you have less of your snout in a trough, doesn't mean you are feeding any less. 

As far as role models go, I doubt more than a handful of people took up running after seeing John Howard doing it and likewise with Abbott I doubt many have taken to walking like Wyatt Earp, holsters on the ready.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2014)

Only Labor could have their former icon turning in the box before he's even put down the hole.



> The former prime minister is greeted by Malcolm and Tamie Fraser as an usher standing behind Ms Gillard points to vacant red seat.
> 
> There is a look of realisation as Ms Gillard sees that the vacant pew is beside the man she deposed from the leadership, and who led to her own political downfall only three years later.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-gough-whitlams-memorial-20141106-11hu01.html


----------



## noco (10 November 2014)

drsmith said:


> Only Labor could have their former icon turning in the box before he's even put down the hole.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-gough-whitlams-memorial-20141106-11hu01.html




Yes Doc and the anger and dissension still exists today and not only between Rudd and Gillard.

Shorten is just a puppet to the unions and in particular the CFMEU.


----------



## noco (11 November 2014)

Is it any wonder things cost so much more in Australia when the Labor Party and the unions are involved....What a shocking state of affair that is happening in Victoria and all thanks to that "NUT" Tim Flannery.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...118815187?sv=fa8c7a68140dd9d593a38c34e59612dd


----------



## drsmith (12 November 2014)

The following part of a Paul Kelly piece is very scathing indeed.



> The risk for Labor in 2016 is looking too similar to the Rudd-Gillard party, with climate change being the prime exhibit, and underestimating Tony Abbott’s ability to sink the ALP by this branding…
> 
> Much of the media gives [Bill] Shorten high marks as Opposition Leader for only one reason ”” opinion polls. No assessment is made of Labor’s policy or direction…
> 
> ...




http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg..._itself_pity_us_if_we_believe_those_lies_too/


----------



## noco (12 November 2014)

drsmith said:


> The following part of a Paul Kelly piece is very scathing indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg..._itself_pity_us_if_we_believe_those_lies_too/




DOC, I was about to post the same link......Paul Kelly sums up Labor very well......Labor is rotten to the core and have no interest in the welfare of this Nation of ours.

If the lefties on ASF keep hounding Abbott about "LIES", I will continue to hound them about their connection to the Fabians who have only one thing in mind and that is to ruin the economy of Australia.....I will continue this attack and hope to hell I can covert some of the naive who swallow the Fabian Green/Labor propaganda and lies.


----------



## Tisme (12 November 2014)

noco said:


> DOC, I was about to post the same link......Paul Kelly sums up Labor very well......Labor is rotten to the core and have no interest in the welfare of this Nation of ours.
> 
> If the lefties on ASF keep hounding Abbott about "LIES", I will continue to hound them about their connection to the Fabians who have only one thing in mind and that is to ruin the economy of Australia.....I will continue this attack and hope to hell I can covert some of the naive who swallow the Fabian Green/Labor propaganda and lies.




What proof does Paul Kelly provide that is so compelling that the truth eludes/deludes members of parliament, usually with Labor pollies who has had to battle through a tough terrain to get preselection in the first place and usually have enough brains for tertiary smarts? 

I have seen enough figures from dept of finance to also smell a rat, so I'm not convinced the age old practice of forward loading costs onto the previous incumbent, as practiced by incoming CEOs of the private sector, hasn't happened here e.g. Reserve Bank gift that will eventually be brought back as a "saving".

I'm neither a Fabian nor Green or "leftie as far as that goes, but I do believe in social justice, and I do think lies continue to be told. Abbott made the mistake of bare faced lying before he was PM and I can't see he would change given how comfortable he was about core, scripted and other nonsensical excuses for his deceptions.

I do know that (good)  friends of mine who would defend the LNP through thick and thin are wondering what the hell is going on and where an inspirational leader is hiding in the mix of can do nothings.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (12 November 2014)

This fellow Shorten is embarrassing. A tongue tied ex union organiser.

Why cannot the ALP give Albo the Captain's spot, to provide some real opposition.

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (12 November 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This fellow Shorten is embarrassing. A tongue tied ex union organiser.
> 
> Why cannot the ALP give Albo the Captain's spot, to provide some real opposition.
> 
> gg




I'll second that.


----------



## noco (12 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> What proof does Paul Kelly provide that is so compelling that the truth eludes/deludes members of parliament, usually with Labor pollies who has had to battle through a tough terrain to get preselection in the first place and usually have enough brains for tertiary smarts?
> 
> I have seen enough figures from dept of finance to also smell a rat, so I'm not convinced the age old practice of forward loading costs onto the previous incumbent, as practiced by incoming CEOs of the private sector, hasn't happened here e.g. Reserve Bank gift that will eventually be brought back as a "saving".
> 
> ...




What Paul Kelly has stated is so plain for all to see.....just watch question time.....just watch Shorten and his cronies on media interviews.....read the paper either in print or digital......the proof is there and for anyone not to understand his report, then they must be pretty naive.

Shorten is a wolf in sheep's clothing and Albo is not much better......Albo is one of the greats when it comes to spin and he has been caught out more than once.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 November 2014)

noco said:


> Albo is one of the greats when it comes to spin and he has been caught out more than once.




Totally unlike Abbott of course


----------



## noco (12 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Totally unlike Abbott of course




Yes of course......I am in total agreement with you......great stuff.......


----------



## DB008 (19 November 2014)

Take from the poor, and give to the poorer...???




> *Wilkie hits out over pokies owned by Labor*
> 
> GAMBLING venues owned by the ALP present a conflict of interest and should be dumped, says independent MP Andrew Wilkie.
> 
> ...





http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wilkie-hits-out-over-pokies-owned-by-labor-20110716-1hj8g.html


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2014)

DB008 said:


> Take from the poor, and give to the poorer...???
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What a hoot, is that the Labor party, Wilkie jumped into bed with, because of their shared hate of pokies.


----------



## IFocus (20 November 2014)

DB008 said:


> Take from the poor, and give to the poorer...???
> 
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wilkie-hits-out-over-pokies-owned-by-labor-20110716-1hj8g.html




Thats a shocker should burn the bastards at the stake


----------



## noco (21 November 2014)

And the Labor could not care less about the national interest.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._rescue_of_the_countrys_finances_and_our_fut/


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2014)

It is a shame Labor and the Greens, were so against Colin Barnetts push for LNG processing onshore near Broome.

Barnett argued that it would be great for Australia and W.A. 
It would have been fantastic for Broome and offered Job opportunities, for the local people and long term employment prospects.
The Greens and especially Bob Brown managed to get it stopped despite a lot of local elders wanting it.
Now we see the results of no jobs and welfare dependancy, shame we don't see Bob up there any more.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...th-homelessness-and-drunken-behaviour/5905988


----------



## Calliope (28 November 2014)

Labor members of parliament yesterday behaved like a gang of trolls. Their behaviour was typical. They were being deliberately provocative in order to leave early, or otherwise being anti-social and obnoxious.



> SPEAKER Bronwyn Bishop has punted 18 Labor MPs from a rowdy question time, an achievement Labor claims is an all-time record.
> 
> MRS Bishop described the behaviour of Labor members as "an absolute disgrace", saying it was no accident.
> 
> ...



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ord-18-labor-mps/story-fn3dxiwe-1227137178392


----------



## Tisme (28 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Labor members of parliament yesterday behaved like a gang of trolls. Their behaviour was typical. They were being deliberately provocative in order to leave early, or otherwise being anti-social and obnoxious.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ord-18-labor-mps/story-fn3dxiwe-1227137178392




I don't think any of the members (Lab or LNP) were in any doubt about the humour behind it:


----------



## noco (28 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Labor members of parliament yesterday behaved like a gang of trolls. Their behaviour was typical. They were being deliberately provocative in order to leave early, or otherwise being anti-social and obnoxious.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ord-18-labor-mps/story-fn3dxiwe-1227137178392




Yesterday was like a 3 ring circus......all the clowns on the left lead by the ring leader 'BARNACLE BILL".

The speaker warned and warned many members and then gave a general warning to the lot on the left, they continued to disrupt and suffered the consequences....they must surely be very proud of them themselves to have broken the record for the numbers who were ejected from parliament.

Labor's abuse, intimidation and disruption of proceedings should not be tolerated.

As Christopher stated Tony Burke should run a clinic with Labor MPs to educate them on the correct procedures of parliament during question time. 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...ry-question-time/story-fni0xqrb-1227137065758


----------



## Tisme (28 November 2014)

Didn't Tony Abbott get thrown out of the house on the odd occasion....even as a minister I recall?



> Yesterday was like a 3 ring circus......all the clowns on the left lead by the ring leader 'BARNACLE BILL".




Oh no!! Not endless "Barnacle Bill" pls Noco. The endless abuse of the Fabian word is bad enough.

How about something clever about you mendacious political leader for a change of pace?


----------



## Calliope (28 November 2014)

"Barnacle Bill" Shorten is aptly named...as barnacles impede the progress of ships, so BBS does his damndest to impede the progress of the ship of state.

When he was "Electricity Bill" he did his damndest to keep power bills high.


----------



## noco (29 November 2014)

Why is the Green/Labor socialist left wing party intent on destroying Australia.

They have shown absolutely no interest in helping to clean up the mess left by Rudd/Gillard/Rudd and  one cannot believe Shorten is trying his best to make a bad situation worse.

His performance and that of the rest of his MPs at Question time is an absolute disgrace.....they are making a mockery of the parliamentary system...they defy the chair and the rules that go with it. 


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ll_destroy_australia_out_of_spite_for_abbott/


----------



## explod (29 November 2014)

noco said:


> Why is the Green/Labor socialist left wing party intent on destroying Australia.
> 
> They have shown absolutely no interest in helping to clean up the mess left by Rudd/Gillard/Rudd and  one cannot believe Shorten is trying his best to make a bad situation worse.
> 
> ...




Dunno noco.   Alp have put greens last in a lot of the seats. 

And ALP are not in power in Canberra.   The chair of the Parliament has been close to wrong and unfair a few times of late. 

And they talk about jobs.   What are those jobs for the umteenth time  ¿????????????????  ¿ ¿


----------



## noco (29 November 2014)

explod said:


> Dunno noco.   Alp have put greens last in a lot of the seats.
> 
> And ALP are not in power in Canberra.   The chair of the Parliament has been close to wrong and unfair a few times of late.
> 
> And they talk about jobs.   What are those jobs for the umteenth time  ¿????????????????  ¿ ¿





Dunno plod...maybe we will have to get the Green/Labor socialist left back to paddle in their own $h*t.

What do you think?


----------



## banco (29 November 2014)

noco said:


> Why is the Green/Labor socialist left wing party intent on destroying Australia.
> 
> They have shown absolutely no interest in helping to clean up the mess left by Rudd/Gillard/Rudd and  one cannot believe Shorten is trying his best to make a bad situation worse.
> 
> ...




Given the demented old bat they have sitting in the Speaker's chair it's hardly surprising.


----------



## noco (4 December 2014)

When will people eventually wake up to what a fake this Shorten is?

Surely they are not that naive to not understand what a destroyer to our economy Shorten is....he is an absolute economic vandal.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...top-us-fixing-it/story-fnihsr9v-1227143768045


----------



## SirRumpole (4 December 2014)

> When will people eventually wake up to what a fake this Abbott is?
> 
> Surely they are not that naive to not understand what a destroyer to our economy Abbott is....he is an absolute economic vandal.





...


----------



## noco (4 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> ...




Typical FABIAN tactic of yours......Shame on you for vandalizing  my post.

You are as bad as  Shorten....you are an absolute clown in the Shorten 3 ring circus.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 December 2014)

noco said:


> Typical FABIAN tactic of yours......Shame on you for vandalizing  my post.
> 
> You are as bad as  Shorten....you are an absolute clown in the Shorten 3 ring circus.




As your fearless leader said, it's up to the government to get their legislation through Parliament.

If letting legislation through breaches what the Labor party stands for, then Labor has no obligation to vote for it, and would in fact be cheating it's own supporters if it did.

So blame the electorate for not trusting the Coalition in the Senate. As i see it, the electorate had every right not to trust them after all the lies and backflips they have perpetrated.


----------



## drsmith (4 December 2014)

What exactly does Labor stand for other than a carbon tax ?

We know what it doesn't stand for. It doesn't stand for supporting it's own budget savings it put to the electorate last year. It also doesn't stand for stopping the boats and hence preventing the consequent problems including deaths at sea, the tragedy of which has only been recently highlighted again in the press.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...seeker-bodies-from-ocean-20141202-11yqag.html


----------



## SirRumpole (4 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> What exactly does Labor stand for other than a carbon tax ?
> 
> We know what it doesn't stand for. It doesn't stand for supporting it's own budget savings it put to the electorate last year. It also doesn't stand for stopping the boats and hence preventing the consequent problems including deaths at sea, the tragedy of which has only been recently highlighted again in the press.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...seeker-bodies-from-ocean-20141202-11yqag.html




It also doesn't stand for hitting OAP's and unemployed youth trying to find non existent jobs, increased university fees and increased costs for the sick.


----------



## noco (4 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> What exactly does Labor stand for other than a carbon tax ?
> 
> We know what it doesn't stand for. It doesn't stand for supporting it's own budget savings it put to the electorate last year. It also doesn't stand for stopping the boats and hence preventing the consequent problems including deaths at sea, the tragedy of which has only been recently highlighted again in the press.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...seeker-bodies-from-ocean-20141202-11yqag.html




 And the Green/Labor left wing socialist do not stand for doing anything in the National interest...only self interest in point scoring....All they are interested in is assisting to wreck the economy and send it  further down the gurgler....I would not be surprised if they are hoping for another GFC to further embarrass the LNP.

Labor could not care less about the debt they left for the next generation pay back .

They are lower than a rattle snakes belly.


----------



## Tisme (4 December 2014)

reworking dates


----------



## Tisme (4 December 2014)

I'd like to introduce some figures into the argument that the libs are better managers than ALP (which leaves the question about what is satisfactory management open):

The Frazier govt left Hawke a net debt of  $40bn
 The Hawke/Keeting Debt was $56bn
 Howard sold our assets to ourselves for $72bn:-  72- 56 = $26Bn


The Howard govt was paying $454/month in April 2007, $476/m in May 2007,  on a debt that apparently didn't exist; something miraculous happened in the first half of the 2007/2008 financial year with debt seeming to disappear in the space of a month and net negative debt pretty high in August at $41bn, but whittled down to $22bn by November 2007, rising to $26bn in Jan 2008 ... something must have happened in December 2007?


----------



## Tisme (4 December 2014)

Those debt interest payments in my previous post were in millions


----------



## boofhead (4 December 2014)

Government bonds were still on issue and the government rightly elected to main the bond market (keep issuing bonds)


----------



## moXJO (4 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> I'd like to introduce some figures into the argument that the libs are better managers than ALP (which leaves the question about what is satisfactory management open):
> 
> The Frazier govt left Hawke a net debt of  $40bn
> The Hawke/Keeting Debt was $56bn
> ...



So who was in before Frazier.
Future Fund was also set up.

How much did Rudd blow again. I think the question that needs to be asked now is was his stimulus the supposed salvation or did he just kick a grenade down the road for others to deal with? 
They also distorted the economic figures at the time (employment figures,GDP) to make themselves look better then they actually were. As much as I was against the idea at the time I know realize Keating was onto something with his 'recession we had to have'. Australia needs a price reset.


----------



## Calliope (4 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> So who was in before Frazier.




Muhammad Ali?


----------



## Tisme (4 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> Muhammad Ali?








moXJO you need to look at the finance dept figures if you want to put blame on Whitlam.

Future fund is superannuation liability on the balance sheet


----------



## IFocus (4 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> How much did Rudd blow again. .





$40 bil, Coalition said they would have spent $20 bil...........so what's your point?

Remember mining shed 19% of its work force during the GFC..............retail employs far more Australians by %


----------



## moXJO (4 December 2014)

IFocus said:


> $40 bil, Coalition said they would have spent $20 bil...........so what's your point?




yeah and the rest on failed policy. He never made a serious attempt to cut back on wasteful spending either.


----------



## moXJO (4 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> moXJO you need to look at the finance dept figures if you want to put blame on Whitlam.
> 
> Future fund is superannuation liability on the balance sheet



No, wasn't part of the asset sale used for the future fund.
Are you saying whitlam left the country with no debt?
Thats because net Foreign Debt wasn't recorded until 8 months after he was ousted. He more than doubled the Net Income Deficit. And why try and borrow $8 billion from the middle east if we were doing so well? just for $hits and giggles. Don't forget the budget was in deficit for most of the way through and getting worse.The records do not show the whole picture.


----------



## IFocus (5 December 2014)

moXJO said:


> yeah and the rest on failed policy. He never made a serious attempt to cut back on wasteful spending either.




Swan held spending at or below 2%, Howard / Costello over their time in Office was well above that.

If there was easy wasteful spending in creases under Labor then how come Abbott hasn't targeted it? where is it?


----------



## noco (11 December 2014)

Labor gets it wrong again on 457 visas...they lie and exaggerate to the people of Australia which is nothing unusual. Labor  is run by ex union hacks with half a brain.....The unions are already in full swing in Victoria....the workers friends????????????

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...151904741?sv=adf5ef7bb56f13cea5c7c13069c8aa85


----------



## dutchie (11 December 2014)

noco said:


> ex union hacks with half a brain.....




Noco your being too generous again.


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2014)

dutchie said:


> Noco your being too generous again.




I wish that was true the many times I have had to sit down with them and negotiate EBAs. I feel quite disempowered with the process and aggravated at the impudence of it all, but they are clever and steeled to their resolve just like any other person who makes it through the ranks in any organisation and holds.  

The ALP is made up of people who have mostly survived the trial by fire of the rank and file and the haters. The Lib reps don't have that union layer to get past, which proves to them what a waste the unions are in impeding the cream rising to the surface like they have.


----------



## noco (11 December 2014)

Paul Kelly sums up the Green/Labor party to a tee.

Kelly talks about OPPOSITION-ISM when he should really talk about COMMUNISM in the Green/Labor party.

They are lying through their teeth to the public about the state of our finances and the naive are swallowing it.

The Green/Labor left wing socialist wrecked the economy in 2007/2013 and have no national interest in trying help fix the mess they left.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ut-doing-us-harm/story-fnihsr9v-1227151701248


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2014)

noco said:


> Paul Kelly sums up the Green/Labor party to a tee.
> 
> Kelly talks about OPPOSITION-ISM when he should really talk about COMMUNISM in the Green/Labor party.
> 
> ...




I thought the GFC did that.

I think that in times of trouble like it was (still is?), gov't must spend and invest to stimulate the economy. Else that Great Recession would've become the Second Great Depression.


----------



## DeepState (11 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> I thought the GFC did that.
> 
> I think that in times of trouble like it was (still is?), gov't must spend and invest to stimulate the economy. Else that Great Recession would've become the Second Great Depression.




In the case of Australia, in the era under discussion:

How much?

On What?

For how long?


----------



## Tisme (12 December 2014)

Poor Obama spent the US out of trouble by handing lifelines and govt securities to industry and now things are humming he's a no good Liberal who is loathed by many. 

My pals in Texas are having wonderful time spreading the gospel of Jesus' love and the hate for the Barack.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2014)

One has to wonder why John Faulkner has pulled the pin?

If it's not ill health or family reasons, one would assume he isn't happy the way the Labor Party is going.

I hope Fairfax pursue it, as much as they would, if a senior coalition member jumped ship mid term?

As if Fairfax would do that.lol

Much better to scare the general public, with the Abbott specter.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Poor Obama spent the US out of trouble by handing lifelines and govt securities to industry and now things are humming he's a no good Liberal who is loathed by many.
> 
> My pals in Texas are having wonderful time spreading the gospel of Jesus' love and the hate for the Barack.




Well maybe you can get them here, to spend us out of trouble.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2014)

noco said:


> Paul Kelly sums up the Green/Labor party to a tee.
> 
> Kelly talks about OPPOSITION-ISM when he should really talk about COMMUNISM in the Green/Labor party.
> 
> ...




IMO
What you have to remember noco, a lot of Labor voters are on welfare.
The rest are wealthy people that want a badge of honour, to be able to say they care for little people.
Bob Brown, even in retirement, has destined the Broome area to poverty and a future without hope.

I just can't see where these goons, have the audacity to claim a taxpayer funded lifetime pension, while leaving us in a worse position. 
It's outrageous, take the bloody pension off them and put them on the same pension as everyone else.
If they can't show that they are contributing to the betterment of Australia, they should not qualify for the perks of office.

Why should the taxpayer, be responsible for stupid policy, if it can be proven to have been negligent?


----------



## Tisme (15 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> IMO
> It's outrageous, take the bloody pension off them and put them on the same pension as everyone else.




Which pension we are talking about? I don't get any money and recall ever getting any govt handouts .. I didn't even get the $900 television bonus ...dammit.

How do you feel about our dollars going to dust bowl farmers and govt intervention into the banks who finance the mortgages?


----------



## noco (17 December 2014)

Rowan Dean sums up the bastardy of Bill Shorten and the Labor socialist left wing party.

Shorten has absolutely no interest in the welfare of Australia......his only interest is to see the Abbott Government fail and hope Australia does further down the gurglar.......Shame on Shorten and the Labor Party



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-nation-on-earth/story-fnihsr9v-1227147788128


----------



## sydboy007 (17 December 2014)

noco said:


> Rowan Dean sums up the bastardy of Bill Shorten and the Labor socialist left wing party.
> 
> Shorten has absolutely no interest in the welfare of Australia......his only interest is to see the Abbott Government fail and hope Australia does further down the gurglar.......Shame on Shorten and the Labor Party
> 
> ...




So Noco, how do you explain the below graphs then?  Seems the current Govt has some major spending issues don't you think.  Can't blame that on Labor.





So the above shows the Abbott Govt is doing quite nicely compared to Labor in terms of revenue.  There worst year is still better than Labor's best year of revenue.  Surely with that much revenue flowing in they can balance the budget.  It was so easy peasy when they were in opposition.




but they're spending like there's no tomorrow.  Where's the money going?  I don't see cranes over cities like Abbott claimed there would be.  Got to love Abbott's unconditional support for the Melbourne $1M / meter tunnel.  How does an economically responsible federal Govt offer $3B in funding to a project that was originally expected to provide a 40c in the $ economic return.  All that debt that will need taxes to pay it off because the infrastructure is not self liquidation.  Factor in the lost opportunities for economically positive infrastructure that was developed, and then ask yourself how long we can continue this kind of waste and mismanagement?


----------



## noco (17 December 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> So Noco, how do you explain the below graphs then?  Seems the current Govt has some major spending issues don't you think.  Can't blame that on Labor.
> 
> View attachment 60785
> 
> ...




You are very naive or just plain dumb not understand what is going on or perhaps you do know but you don't want to criticize your beloved Green/Labor left wing socialist party....So long as you endeavor to make the Liberal Party look bad. 

Firstly, the Government have to find $1 billion a month to pay back the money the Green/Labor borrowed from the Chinese......you know the money they wasted on hare brain schemes during the "FINANCIAL CRISIS".

They have on going costs of Labor commitments made before the 2013 election...things like the NBN, the Gonski scheme, the the disability insurance scheme and many others that Labor came up with which was to be paid for by money they THOUGHT they were going to get.
Then you have Shorten blocking $28 billion in savings including some $6 billion which Labor had said they would cut if in government was elected and are now reneging on..
On top of the Labor stupidity, the government is faced with declining commodity prices and don't forget the ever increasing cost of maintaining Medicare.
I hope you have read Rowan Dean's thoughts I posted on this thread today.  

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-nation-on-earth/story-fnihsr9v-1227147788128

But sydboy, you are really kidding you don't understand.....right?


----------



## Tink (12 February 2015)

Waste and mates: What Labor looks like when put back in charge

http://bit.ly/17c6bt7
_

Daniel Andrews abolishes Victoria's building industry watchdog
Abolishing the watchdog will give open season to thuggery and lawlessness in the Victorian building industry and add millions of dollars to the cost of taxpayer funded building projects.
The Construction Code Compliance Unit and the building industry code were introduced to prevent and protect against lawlessness on building sites. 
Now Daniel Andrews' CFMEU mates know the watchdog is gone.

Before the election, Daniel Andrews promised voters he could tear up the East West Link contract without having to pay compensation, because the contract “isn’t worth the paper it was written on”.
The contract is valid even though they still refuse to let voters see it._

Vic's upper house carries motion to compel Govt to release East West contracts by noon TODAY.

And now the unions have started for a pay rise.

Time to fatten up the public sector.


----------



## Tink (13 February 2015)

Union opposes council rate cap.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...t-threatens-jobs/story-fni0fit3-1227217820792

_The blunt warning from a major Labor-affiliated union comes on the back of other public sector unions playing hardball over pay rise bids.

The Herald Sun revealed on Thursday that the Health Workers Union was demanding a 20 per cent pay increase over four years.
_




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28524&page=11&p=852934#post852934


----------



## overhang (13 February 2015)

Tink said:


> Before the election, Daniel Andrews promised voters he could tear up the East West Link contract without having to pay compensation, because the contract “isn’t worth the paper it was written on”.
> The contract is valid even though they still refuse to let voters see it.[/I]




Tink this is unreasonable to put this blame on the Andrews Government when the former government signed the contract right before the caretaker period knowing full well that Labor were not going complete the project if they formed government.  To top things of the Napthine Government signed an unprecedented letter of guarantee to the builder that if courts ruled the contract invalid they would still be guaranteed compensation by the state government, this letter was signed only days before we entered care taker mode.  Tink given your strong position on economic wastage then surely you would see this as completely reckless by the former Napthine Government. 

On the union matters I feared this would happen if Labor won the election, I noticed the CFEMU donated to the Labor party too.


----------



## Tink (14 February 2015)

Overhang, I can only give you my view, but then you may have another.

No, I don't think I am being unreasonable. 
The Andrews Government walked away from a deal because of the Greens and their protests, but before that, he went along with it, through all the soil tests etc, until it was ready to be built.
Now as a business man, is that what you do?
What does it do for Victoria's reputation?

I thought Andrews was all for employment, instead he is spending his time and money on court cases and lawyers rather than people working or in areas that are needed.

Now I can understand what you are saying about Napthine, and why did he sign that agreement, when there were protests, well, the Victorians wanted and needed that road, and we still do.
He has done what he was voted in to do, and Labor were all for it.

As I said at the start, we need both, road and rail, don't waste our money.
I have spoken to both, Labor and Liberal voters, and they were disappointed, saying, they need to do something.
We went through all this when CityLink, Eastern Freeway, Eastlink, were being built, now tell me, is there cars on that road? 
Do they get used?
The latest, Eastlink has been a winner, I don't know how many times I have heard, it only takes me 20 minutes.

As for his letter, I don't know why he has done that, but maybe he knew the first thing Labor would do is scrap the Code, and we know what happened with the desal plant. 
Drug deals on the premises, cost blow out etc.

Now talking about this desal plant, what exactly does it give to Victoria, apart from costing us millions on our water bill, at least this road would be used daily.
Protesters keep going on about this 45 cents, if only the desal plant would give us 45 cents, its costing us more than that, forever being maintained with no return.

From the Libs in parliament --

_I rise today to again highlight the community's anger in my home state of Victoria due to Labor's attempted destruction of the East West Link project.

This is a major problem entirely of the Labor Party's making, reversing its previously long-standing support of the East West Link project just to appease some inner city Greens voters._

I am watching what he does with his back peddling and costing Victoria millions.
We all knew that would happen.


----------



## noco (14 February 2015)

The unions are back in control of Queensland and will dictate to Palaszczuk who has which ministry.
We are back to the bad old days of Beattie and Bligh. Palszczuk will be the unions puppet on a string.
Her hidden agenda is revealed in the link below and is something she should have gone to the election with.....The only policy she had at the election was "We will not sell Queensland's assets".

I am pleased Labor are back in Queensland for they, together with the Victorian Labor party in control, they will be Tony Abbott's greatest asset come  the federal election next year. 



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ns-for-the-state/story-fnihsr9v-1227219090788

*The letter points to profound changes in everything from health, transport and local government, to planning and education.

It also outlines Labor’s blinkered approach to accountability and integrity. And it shows plans to welcome back unions by inviting them to dominate the public service.

I’m afraid it means the speedy surgeries promised by the outgoing LNP government will almost certainly end. In a bid to appease unions, Labor will stop the outsourcing of surgeries to private hospitals.

Contestability will also be banned across government, so expect public service numbers to soar to take up the slack. If that happens, the state wages bill will skyrocket.*


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2015)

noco said:


> The unions are back in control of Queensland and will dictate to Palaszczuk who has which ministry.
> We are back to the bad old days of Beattie and Bligh. Palszczuk will be the unions puppet on a string.
> Her hidden agenda is revealed in the link below and is something she should have gone to the election with.....The only policy she had at the election was "We will not sell Queensland's assets".
> 
> ...




I think this will be their last chance for a while if they go down the path of government intrusion into everything they shouldn't. I reckon they should start talking about "Campbell's Mess" and do nothing, just like Tony Abbott.


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2015)

overhang said:


> On the union matters I feared this would happen if Labor won the election, I noticed the CFEMU donated to the Labor party too.




The CEPU (ETU arm) donated to the Liberal Party in VIC a few years back as I recall.


----------



## noco (15 February 2015)

Who is the new premier of Queensland?...No you have it all wrong...it is not Ms,Palszczuk, it is the Labor caucus run by the unions and they are the ones to pick the Ministry....What a joke....Palsazczuk is just a puppet and will do what her masters say 



https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/26296098/labor-caucus-to-decide-qld-ministry/


----------



## sydboy007 (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> Who is the new premier of Queensland?...No you have it all wrong...it is not Ms,Palszczuk, it is the Labor caucus run by the unions and they are the ones to pick the Ministry....What a joke....Palsazczuk is just a puppet and will do what her masters say
> 
> 
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/26296098/labor-caucus-to-decide-qld-ministry/




As opposed to the Liberals that did what their mining and financial services backers had asked.

First business was kill the resource tax and winding back of FOFA by the Govt.  Killing off the carbon tax too was a priority.  All that revenue lost and they're complaining the GP and UNI taxes being blocked is the cause of the budget blow out.

Oh, I forgot about their energy mates too who wanted the RET killed or neutered, even though the Govt's own hand picked review panel found the RET saves electricity consumers like you and me, along with the remaining manufacturers money, while helping to transition us away from fossil fuels.  Most would view that as a win win but still the Govt wants to wind back the clock to Abbott's mid 50s golden age.

Do you think Abbott will finally prove he's legally the PM and show us his Form RN renouncing his UK citizenship?


----------



## chiff (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> Who is the new premier of Queensland?...No you have it all wrong...it is not Ms,Palszczuk, it is the Labor caucus run by the unions and they are the ones to pick the Ministry....What a joke....Palsazczuk is just a puppet and will do what her masters say
> 
> 
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/26296098/labor-caucus-to-decide-qld-ministry/




In victory revenge-in defeat malice!


----------



## noco (15 February 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> As opposed to the Liberals that did what their mining and financial services backers had asked.
> 
> First business was kill the resource tax and winding back of FOFA by the Govt.  Killing off the carbon tax too was a priority.  All that revenue lost and they're complaining the GP and UNI taxes being blocked is the cause of the budget blow out.
> 
> ...





Did Clive Palmer, a life member of the LNP, a heavy financial backer of the LNP get his own way?

Your rhetoric has no substance.


----------



## explod (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> Did Clive Palmer, a life member of the LNP, a heavy financial backer of the LNP get his own way?
> 
> Your rhetoric has no substance.




Big Clive is doing very well for himself,  "don't you worry about that". 

Hopefully the new ALP mob in Queensland can stem the flow a bit.


----------



## sydboy007 (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> Did Clive Palmer, a life member of the LNP, a heavy financial backer of the LNP get his own way?
> 
> Your rhetoric has no substance.




Oh.  Maybe you need the pineapples to show you the way.  Seems apt when thinking in Queensland how New Hope funnelled over 7000 pineapples to the LNP Govt over a number of years and surprise surprise got the go ahead for their Acland mine expansion.

One has to wonder what the Nats actually represent these days.  A mine using over 9 gigaliters of water each year, in the midst or relatively prime agricultural land.

But then they're following the same form in NSW by allowing Shenhua Coal to expand their Watermark mine, also right in the middle of the Liverpool Plains prime agricultural land.  Seems the Nats are just yes men apologists for the Liberals these days.  I thought the Nats were first and foremost supporting agriculture before anything else.  Obviously not.  At least Barnaby is tryign to force Hunt to not approve the expansion. I can see the Baird Govt facing the kind of electoral backlash that Newman just went through.  

What's up with the LNP when they're allowing new mines, or the expansion of current ones, while the majority of the sector is losing money at current prices, with a global oversupply that will see the current depressed prices around for a decade or more?  It'd be cheaper to buy a near bankrupted mine than to build a new one, or even expand capacity at a current one.

As the Vic Libs have shown, they certainly have their priorities right in the defence of the public's health.  Windfarms, which no scientifically credible research has shown to have any negative health effects, has to be build further away from housing than a coal fired power station, which has scientific journals full of the health damage they do those living close by, as well as the environment in general.


----------



## noco (15 February 2015)

The Queensland Labor Party state they want to hold an inquiry into political donations but they will exempt union donations....Hmmmm, well what do you know?


----------



## explod (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> The Queensland Labor Party state they want to hold an inquiry into political donations but they will exempt union donations....Hmmmm, well what do you know?




The union donations are transparent,  many corporate donations are not so clear as to motive. 

Unions are first and formost to protect workers pay and conditions.  They would be soon back to raddled sheep if that protection was not in place. 

In fact one of the first calls of any Government should be the rights and conditions of the country's workers,  AND THE GENERATION OF JOBS noco. 

But no,  the Libs "and labor to some degree"  allow the big corps to operate offshore and thereby avoid paying thier fair share of taxes.


----------



## sydboy007 (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> The Queensland Labor Party state they want to hold an inquiry into political donations but they will exempt union donations....Hmmmm, well what do you know?




maybe you need to have the same fire in your belly over the likes of Glencore.  I doubt you'd have read about it, since I doubt your primary sources of information would deem it appropriate knowledge for the masses, but the Uniting Church hired a former Australian Federal Police and AUSTRAC officer, on a short-term contract to map the structure of Glencore's coal operations and subsidiaries.  To say it was a difficult task that still didn't shed a lot of light on how Glencore goes about it's tax minimisation says a lot.

*Glencore has said it has more than 200 companies in Australia.*  One has to wonder why they have such complex ownership structures - oh wait it could possibly do with the minimal tax they end up paying by siphoning extra billions out of the country.

Now Abbott is looking to roll back on Labors initiative (in opposition the LNP voted against it) for the tax commissioner to release the tax details of about 1600 public and private companies with $100 million or more annual turnover.

This would include tax information on private companies controlled by billionaire mining magnate Gina Rinehart.

The laws, which would see Australian companies' taxable income, total income and tax paid for the 2013-14 financial year published publicly.

Seems transparency for the capitalist class is not cricket.


----------



## noco (15 February 2015)

explod said:


> The union donations are transparent,  many corporate donations are not so clear as to motive.
> 
> Unions are first and formost to protect workers pay and conditions.  They would be soon back to raddled sheep if that protection was not in place.
> 
> ...




The communist dominated unions have stuffed this country since the 1950's and you know it and that is the reason why many companies have gone off shore to be able to compete....Had they stayed here they would have gone broke....
What did the unions care about the car industry...Of course, blame the Liberal Party for not propping them up..Gillard gave millions to Ford to prop them up until 2020.....where are they at now?
We stopped manufacturing shoes, clothing and our woollen mills closed because wages were too high to be able to compete...Bless the unions for all their good work???????
How can you generate jobs with such high wages?..Penalty rates on weekends are holding back hundreds of jobs due to the to the unions insistence......Many women work in a normal job 5 days a week, but due to family demands, seek work on weekends to supplement their income, but due to say a restaurants having to pay double time on Sundays and triple time on holidays, it is more economical to close their doors..It sure would be nice to be paid $42 per hour to wash dishes but I doubt if the clients would be prepared to pay a 15 or 20% surcharge for a meal.
And you say the unions are looking after the workers.
The only thing the unions want to do is wreck the economy of the country.
Jupiters Hotel/Casino have some 500 workers on roster 7 days a week from 6am in the morning until 4 am the next morning...Casino workers, restaurant workers, cleaners and maintenance workers and none are paid penalty rates...Are the unions looking after those workers?


----------



## chiff (15 February 2015)

Hey Noco...What are the arrangements with those casino workers?Are they paid a loading in lieu of penalty rates?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2015)

> but the Uniting Church hired a former Australian Federal Police and AUSTRAC officer, on a short-term contract to map the structure of Glencore's coal operations and subsidiaries.




What has company business got to do with the Uniting Church ?

Whatever their reasons it's good that it was done, and the results make it more obvious that if anyone is going to reform the tax system then it should be big companies not the individual PAYE taxpayer that gets the light shone on them first.


----------



## sydboy007 (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> The communist dominated unions have stuffed this country since the 1950's and you know it and that is the reason why many companies have gone off shore to be able to compete....Had they stayed here they would have gone broke....
> What did the unions care about the car industry...Of course, blame the Liberal Party for not propping them up..Gillard gave millions to Ford to prop them up until 2020.....where are they at now?
> We stopped manufacturing shoes, clothing and our woollen mills closed because wages were too high to be able to compete...Bless the unions for all their good work???????
> How can you generate jobs with such high wages?..Penalty rates on weekends are holding back hundreds of jobs due to the to the unions insistence......Many women work in a normal job 5 days a week, but due to family demands, seek work on weekends to supplement their income, but due to say a restaurants having to pay double time on Sundays and triple time on holidays, it is more economical to close their doors..It sure would be nice to be paid $42 per hour to wash dishes but I doubt if the clients would be prepared to pay a 15 or 20% surcharge for a meal.
> ...




So your saying without unions the companies offshoring would have kept the jobs in AUstralia?

Exactly how does that work?  Only way I can see it happening is if:

* land prices were about 90% lower
* Wages were down near SEA levels

IS it sensible to try and compete for work that pays $2 an hour, or would we be better off improving our competitiveness and competing for manufacturing work at the high end of the spectrum, or funding our globally competitive biotech sector?

I say we can blame the Liberals party to a fair degree for the loss of manufacturing in Australia.  It was Howard than spent like a drunken sailor during the initial stages of the resource boom.  lest you forget we had mortgage rates up over 9% at the end of his last term as PM.  These high interest rates lead to a massively over valued AUD.  That helped to wipe out many a manufacturer, as well as decimating a lot of the tourism industries in regional areas.

The high AUD also made the car manufacturers uncompetitive.  I bet if Abbott had helped them out last year they'd actually be sitting a bit prettier now with an AUD of 77c US and still likely to fall further.  Odds are in a few years we'll be importing cars at a higher cost than if they were manufactured here due to the falling AUD.

Those Howard years also saw land prices and housing become so over valued, with private sector debt jumping something like 70%. Those debt levels have caused housing and commercial land values to be a mill stone around the Australian economy.  

So if Howard had been willing to set up a proper SWF like say Chile Russia or Norway, and save most of the once off boom time $$$$, we'd probably have a much more diversified economy now.  Definitely a lot larger manufacturing sector than we've been hollowed out to.  We wouldn't need to have uncompetitively high wages just so people can rent, let along afford the jumbo mortgages so many have shackled themselves with.  The AUD wouldn't have crippled most non resource sectors of the economy like it did.

But on't worry.  Abbott has a plan for our high wages.  He found bringing them in by boats quite slow.  better bring low paid workers in by the 747 or A380 load.  No need for them to have any English language skills.  Why would you need that in Australia?  No need to even advertise the position for a local worker.  Why would you wantt o do that.  We need to give our jobs to foreigners on 457 Visa.  Tens of thousands of them.  no wait, lets just make it on an unlimited basis eh.  Keep that population ponzi going as long as we can, yet not worry about where the $$$ for the infrastructure required to cope with an extra 1M population every 3 years will come from.

Another beautiful captain's call from Abbott


----------



## sydboy007 (15 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> What has company business got to do with the Uniting Church ?
> 
> Whatever their reasons it's good that it was done, and the results make it more obvious that if anyone is going to reform the tax system then it should be big companies not the individual PAYE taxpayer that gets the light shone on them first.




the provided the information to a Govt review into taxation.

basically they want the opaqeness of tax structures used by companies to be simplified.  Hopefully that will make it more difficult to profit shift out of Australia.  Glencore does this via sourcing cheap loans and on lending to the Australia subsidiaries at inflated interest rates.  how that's legal i don't know.

Apple and Google do similar things with having all their IP owned in low taxing jurisdictions and then chargin the various subsidiaries like a wounded bull to siphon the profits out.

Going by Hockey's current form the Govt has little to no interest in doing anything about this.


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> But then they're following the same form in NSW by allowing Shenhua Coal to expand their Watermark mine, also right in the middle of the Liverpool Plains prime agricultural land.  Seems the Nats are just yes men apologists for the Liberals these days.  I thought the Nats were first and foremost supporting agriculture before anything else.  Obviously not.  At least Barnaby is tryign to force Hunt to not approve the expansion. I can see the Baird Govt facing the kind of electoral backlash that Newman just went through.



Whoa did we forget that NSW labor were a lot worse when it came to approving mines. Barry O stopped the approval process for a number of months to review and go over what labor had done.
In fact labor and union corruption when it came to mines knew no bounds. Head labor ministers and heads of unions profiting from millions of $ not just the usual small time rorts.
On another point, how much would the mining tax be bringing in at the moment?
I can't say to many bad things about the current NSW state libs as they have got the state running a lot smoother. I'm not sure labor would be ready to serve for another decade.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2015)

> I can't say to many bad things about the current NSW state libs as they have got the state running a lot smoother. I'm not sure labor would be ready to serve for another decade.




The NSW Libs don't appear to be offending as many people as Campbell Newman did, so they will most likely get back in, although with a reduced majority due to Federal issues.

Bad polling for the NSW prior to the election government will almost certainly lead to another coup against Abbott, as a drovers dog could beat NSW Labor after the Obeid/MacDonald affair, although quite a few Libs are getting caught up in the donations scandal as well, including a former Premier.


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The NSW Libs don't appear to be offending as many people as Campbell Newman did, so they will most likely get back in, although with a reduced majority due to Federal issues.
> 
> Bad polling for the NSW prior to the election government will almost certainly lead to another coup against Abbott, as a drovers dog could beat NSW Labor after the Obeid/MacDonald affair, although quite a few Libs are getting caught up in the donations scandal as well, including a former Premier.




Libs don't look safe anywhere imo. NSW libs wouldn't want to think the election is in the bag.


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2015)

> LABOR is set to review an internal party tribunal finding that mailing addresses for ballot papers in the 2013 federal leadership vote were altered.



http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/labor-reviews-leader-ballot-finding/story-e6frfku9-1227222721873

While libs have been copping leadership woes lately, I wonder how close knit labor really are. Albo and shorten have no love for each other and its just as toxic between factions as it was before. If libs prodded a little labor would probably blow up.


----------



## dutchie (18 February 2015)

The man who wants to be Treasurer, classic fail.

Federal opposition treasurer Chris Bowen has been accused of not knowing a key area of his portfolio after he was unable to identify Australia's tax-free threshold during a live television interview on Tuesday night.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ing-alan-jones-interview-20150217-13hngs.html

LOL


----------



## sydboy007 (18 February 2015)

dutchie said:


> The man who wants to be Treasurer, classic fail.
> 
> Federal opposition treasurer Chris Bowen has been accused of not knowing a key area of his portfolio after he was unable to identify Australia's tax-free threshold during a live television interview on Tuesday night.
> 
> ...




How does it compare to 2014 METADATA Brandis???

[video=youtube_share;EbtgULCY5zk]http://youtu.be/EbtgULCY5zk[/video]


----------



## noco (18 February 2015)

dutchie said:


> The man who wants to be Treasurer, classic fail.
> 
> Federal opposition treasurer Chris Bowen has been accused of not knowing a key area of his portfolio after he was unable to identify Australia's tax-free threshold during a live television interview on Tuesday night.
> 
> ...




Do I hear the ABC, SBS, the Guardian Newspaper, Fairfax, GETUP or any of the other red rags flogging this Bowen's faux pas like they flog Abbott...Even the Muslim Ed Kusek tried to defend Bowen this morning on AM Agenda...Kusek's attempt was without reason.

And Bowen wants to be the future Treasurer of Australia....It was as bad as Spalaszczuk  in Queensland not knowing what the GST rate is.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ould_be_finished_if_his_name_was_tony_abbott/


----------



## dutchie (18 February 2015)

noco said:


> And Bowen wants to be the future Treasurer of Australia....It was as bad as Spalaszczuk  in Queensland not knowing what the GST rate is.




The problem is that no one in Labor has ever run a business.


----------



## moXJO (18 February 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> How does it compare to 2014 METADATA Brandis???




Bowen is the potential treasurer. 
My God, he makes Swan look good in comparison. He could single handedly lower the IQ of whatever suburb he is standing in to special needs.

Plibersek
Wong
Burke
Shorten
Albanese

All make me want to curl up into a ball and puke knowing that they have the potential to win government. Libs need to start applying pressure to this bunch if they choose to stick with Abbott. From what I hear Albanese - Shorten and respective factions don't need a lot to provoke a leadership punch up. I would rather see fresh blood in labor.


----------



## drsmith (18 February 2015)

moXJO said:


> Bowen is the potential treasurer.



He has form when it comes to performance. He was their immigration minister.

The current government does indeed need to take control of the economic narrative. Only that way will it get the electorate to look beyond the cheaply repainted front door of the house of Labor.


----------



## overhang (19 February 2015)

Tink said:


> Overhang, I can only give you my view, but then you may have another.
> 
> No, I don't think I am being unreasonable.
> The Andrews Government walked away from a deal because of the Greens and their protests, but before that, he went along with it, through all the soil tests etc, until it was ready to be built.
> ...




Thank you for the reply Tink and apologies about the late reply.

I can't ever recall Labor supporting the East West Link and this is the only article I could find as to when this was discussed 







> State Opposition Leader Daniel Andrews faces internal dissent over Labor's decision not to support the western stage of the East West Link.



 which was from June 1 last year http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-east-west-link-road-plan-20140531-39b12.html.  Now the contracts were signed in October just before the care taker period when Napthine knew for months that Labor wouldn't carry out the project if they won government, this was irresponsible.

My personal opinion is I don't support the road, it only had an economic return of 45 cents to the dollar however I don't support Labor's level crossing plan either and out of the two projects I would prefer the East West Link be built over the level crossing given they were the two options we had to vote on.

I feel a large payout is going to be on the head of the Napthine government though given the ridiculous contracts signed.


----------



## overhang (19 February 2015)

I'm sure we've all heard the turmoil going on with the Greyhound industry over the illegal cruel practices they have undertaken.

Well the Victoria government feels that what the industry requires is tax payer funding of 3 million so that Grey Hound Racing Victoria can undertake an investigation into the allegations.  







> The Victorian government has defended its decision to give $3m to Greyhound Racing Victoria (GRV) to investigate the “live baiting” scandal despite two former senior members of the organization being accused of direct involvement



I can't believe the complete stupidity here to provide tax payer funding so that an industry can investigate themselves when we know that those involved are high up the food chain in the industry.  The focus of GRV will be to minimize the damage done to the brand, they will attempt to sweep as much under the carpet as possible to protect their image.

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...ictorian-greyhound-industry-over-live-baiting


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2015)

> Now the contracts were signed in October just before the care taker period when Napthine knew for months that Labor wouldn't carry out the project if they won government, this was irresponsible.




Quite so.

 And why should the new government have to pay compensation for work that has not been completed ?

Some may ask if former Ministers would get a kickback from any compensation paid.


----------



## Tink (20 February 2015)

That is fine, overhang, and thanks.

There was more to the saga yesterday, regarding the contracts.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/ea...ue-to-queensland/story-fni0fiyv-1227224745612

I remember when the other freeways were built, be it Labor or Liberal, there was always a drama.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityLink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EastLink_(Melbourne)

Monash, Eastern freeway

In my opinion, Andrews should build it, rather than wasting our money as he is.

I still think it's the Greens that is the problem.

The Melbourne and Yarra Councils are the Greens.

Last I heard, they are going on a taxpayer funded holiday to the South Korean Climate Change Conference.


----------



## dutchie (20 February 2015)

overhang said:


> The focus of GRV will be to minimize the damage done to the brand, they will attempt to sweep as much under the carpet as possible to protect their image.




But in order to do that will require money............ (come in sucker taxpayer)


----------



## dutchie (20 February 2015)

Shorten supports Hicks - both traitors.


----------



## noco (20 February 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten supports Hicks - both traitors.




Shorten also supports the gaffe made by Bowen the shadow treasure who did not know the tax threshold and the tax % thereafter.....Just a lapse of memory after such a long day.....Poor bugger....over worked and under paid.


----------



## sydboy007 (20 February 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten supports Hicks - both traitors.




Is that any worse than the way the Howard Govt turned traitor to mahmoud habib?

A Govt that turned it's back on a citizen, left them to be tortured, shipped from torture site to torture site with their tacit support?  I'm not sure if it's been categorically proven that Australian Intelligence officals were present during some of his torture, but it's up their with the disregard to life and death situations similar to the AFP at the time.

Hicks was definitely an idiot, but if you condone the torture and deplorable actions against him, then you're basically saying we're in a race with the likes of ISIS and Bokko Haram as to which group can do the most deplorable actions against another human.


----------



## Boggo (20 February 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> ...
> 
> Hicks was definitely an idiot, but if you condone the torture and deplorable actions against him, then you're basically saying we're in a race with the likes of ISIS and Bokko Haram as to which group can do the most deplorable actions against another human.




Is this the same Hicks you are feeling sorry for that wrote this in one of his letters to his mother ???

_ “As a muslim we believe in destiny that when it is my time then so be it. If it is my time that is called martyrdom I will always fight for Islam. Real jihad is possible just like before in the Prophets day where martyrs die with a smile on their faces and their bodies stay smelling of beautiful perfume for weeks after death... one reward I get in being martyred I get to take ten members of my family to heaven who were destined for hell But first I also must be martyred.”_


----------



## Boggo (20 February 2015)

Bill Shorten walks into a bank to cash a cheque. “Good morning”, says Bill, “could you please cash this cheque for me?”
Cashier: “It would be my pleasure Sir, but could you please show me some identification?”
Shorten: “Truthfully… I did not bring my ID with me as I didn’t think there was any need to. But hang on! I’m Bill Shorten, Leader of the Opposition and of the Labor Party!!!”
Cashier: “Yes Sir, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers etc, I must insist on seeing some identification”.
Shorten: “Just ask any of the customers here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am!”
Cashier: “I’m sorry Sir, but these are the bank rules and I must follow them”.
Shorten: “I am urging you please, to cash this cheque for me”.
Cashier: “Look Sir, this is what we can do. One day Greg Norman came into the bank without any ID. To prove he was Greg Norman he pulled out his putter and putted a ball along the floor and into a small cup. With that sort of skill we knew it was Greg Norman and we cashed his cheque.
On another occasion, Pat Cash came in without any ID. He pulled out his tennis racquet and lobbed a tennis ball straight into my teacup with such a spectacular shot that we all knew it was Pat Cash."
Bill stood there thinking and thinking and then finally says, “To be honest, there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can’t think of a single thing that I’m any good at.”
Cashier: “Will that be large or small notes you require Mr Shorten ?"


----------



## sydboy007 (20 February 2015)

Boggo said:


> Is this the same Hicks you are feeling sorry for that wrote this in one of his letters to his mother ???
> 
> _ “As a muslim we believe in destiny that when it is my time then so be it. If it is my time that is called martyrdom I will always fight for Islam. Real jihad is possible just like before in the Prophets day where martyrs die with a smile on their faces and their bodies stay smelling of beautiful perfume for weeks after death... one reward I get in being martyred I get to take ten members of my family to heaven who were destined for hell But first I also must be martyred.”_




I don't condone him going off to join al qaeda.  As I said he's an idiot.

I also don't condone the torture he went through.  there is no room for torture in a civilised society.

What the USA did after 9/11 has provided fodder for jihadist groups around the world to this day.  Images out of Abu Ghraib couldn't be a better recruitment poster.

Do you condone torture?  Do you believe the Howard Govt acted honourably by turning it's back on mahmoud habib?


----------



## Boggo (20 February 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> I don't condone him going off to join al qaeda.  As I said he's an idiot.




So, I guess the answer then is that it is the same guy.


----------



## Bintang (20 February 2015)

Boggo said:


> Cashier: “Look Sir, this is what we can do. One day Greg Norman came into the bank without any ID. To prove he was Greg Norman he pulled out his putter …..
> 
> Cashier: “Will that be large or small notes you require Mr Shorten ?"




I was quite worried while reading this until I got to the punch line. I thought it was going to end with Bill Shorten pulling out something as well.


----------



## noco (20 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> I was quite worried while reading this until I got to the punch line. I thought it was going to end with Bill Shorten pulling out something as well.



Yes I believe that part has got him into trouble more than once.


----------



## Tink (25 February 2015)

Daniel Andrews has opened a Royal Commission on Domestic Violence in Victoria.

_PREMIER Daniel Andrews has vowed to jail family violence thugs, make intervention orders easier to get and enforce tough new laws to make women and children safe. _

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...-family-violence/story-fni0fit3-1227236220664

Supposedly it was run on the ABC as well, on Q and A.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...omestic-violence/story-fni0xqrb-1227236263041

Alcohol was mentioned as a problem, I saw in one of her statements, that Rosie wants the prices of alcohol to be lifted.

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or open a new thread on Domestic Violence.


----------



## Bintang (25 February 2015)

Tink said:


> I wasn't sure whether to post this here or open a new thread on Domestic Violence.




You are wise to be cautious about starting a new thread in General Chat these days. It can invite the wrath of the 'thread police'. (Though pinkboy seems to be lying low at the moment).
But I don't understand how your post fits with the topic of Useless Labor Party.


----------



## Tink (25 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> You are wise to be cautious about starting a new thread in General Chat these days. It can invite the wrath of the 'thread police'. (Though pinkboy seems to be lying low at the moment).
> But I don't understand how your post fits with the topic of Useless Labor Party.




If the mods want to put it under a 'Domestic Violence' thread, they are welcome.

I was putting it under Labor, which is where we are in Vic at the moment.


----------



## Bintang (25 February 2015)

Tink said:


> Daniel Andrews has opened a Royal Commission on Domestic Violence in Victoria.






Tink said:


> If the mods want to put it under a 'Domestic Violence' thread, they are welcome.
> 
> I was putting it under Labor, which is where we are in Vic at the moment.




Tink, I was only joking about the “thread police”.

I’m still trying to get the gist of your post. Are you saying that the Royal Commission is a waste of time?


----------



## sydboy007 (26 February 2015)

Tink said:


> Daniel Andrews has opened a Royal Commission on Domestic Violence in Victoria.
> 
> _PREMIER Daniel Andrews has vowed to jail family violence thugs, make intervention orders easier to get and enforce tough new laws to make women and children safe. _
> 
> ...




You could start by calling for an overhaul of how alcohol is taxed.  The first 1.15% of alcohol in beer is free of excise.  The WET on wine is based on the value of the wine, so cheap goon that likely fuels a lot of domestic violence is excessively cheap.

It's ludicrous a 4.4L Berri wine cask can cost $10.  Wine and beer are too lightly taxed based on their alcohol content, but the brewing and winery industries are big contributors to the major parties which has paid off handsomely for them with the inertia on this issue.

If an RC into domestic violence can highlight this issue and apply pressure to the major parties for reform, then I'd say it's not a useless Labor party effort but something that should be commended.

The below graph gives you an idea of how screwed up our alcohol taxing is.  The green bar is the current system, the dark bar is taxing based on alcohol content


----------



## Julia (26 February 2015)

With due respect to Rosie Batty, if she or anyone else thinks taxing alcohol more heavily is going to solve DV they are very naive indeed.


----------



## Bintang (26 February 2015)

Julia said:


> With due respect to Rosie Batty, if she or anyone else thinks taxing alcohol more heavily is going to solve DV they are very naive indeed.




In fact it would probably make it worse.
I'm not a sociologist but I have a hunch that increased alcohol cost will generate increased anger that the perpetrators of DV will be driven to unleash on their usual victims.


----------



## Tink (27 February 2015)

This is how Labor creates employment.

Victoria, the public holiday state.

By the time Labor are finished with our state, it will be one long public holiday.

We now have the most in the country.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...240658985?sv=9a6e27d12d3d36ce84773541acb96d6f


----------



## overhang (27 February 2015)

Tink said:


> This is how Labor creates employment.
> 
> Victoria, the public holiday state.
> 
> ...




It's absurd Tink, I'm yet to speak to one person that supports the idea and this includes footy fans.  Once something like this is passed it will be very difficult to remove due to the campaigning by the unions.  It's another case of politicians buying votes and the electorate shouldn't be rewarding this type of leadership.


----------



## Bintang (27 February 2015)

Tink said:


> This is how Labor creates employment.
> 
> Victoria, the public holiday state.
> 
> ...




There is nothing new under the sun.
Just Labor doing what it does best.


----------



## noco (27 February 2015)

overhang said:


> It's absurd Tink, I'm yet to speak to one person that supports the idea and this includes footy fans.  Once something like this is passed it will be very difficult to remove due to the campaigning by the unions.  It's another case of politicians buying votes and the electorate shouldn't be rewarding this type of leadership.




It will be just another cost to business by the unions....The unions have stuffed this country with their demands over the past 60 years...Is it any wonder our manufacturing industry has gone west.


----------



## sydboy007 (27 February 2015)

noco said:


> It will be just another cost to business by the unions....The unions have stuffed this country with their demands over the past 60 years...Is it any wonder our manufacturing industry has gone west.




Oh, I suppose the AUD 30% above it's long term average against the USD had nothing to do with the death of manufacturing here.

Blame a decade of economic mismanagement with Howard spending the mining boom on tax bribes which led to the higest interest rates in ~15 years, the RBA deciding the mining boom had decades to run so would required a high AUD to suppress manufacturing and other sectors of the economy so as to allow the resource sector to expand, and then Labor for continuing on with the Howard tax bribes when there was no sound reason to do them.

Oh and then we Have Abbott allowing the car manufacturing industry to fold over $500M, less than twice his school chaplains policy, and we could be faced with importing cars from Korea at a higher cost to local manufacture when the dollar has bottomed out.

The reduced clout of unions in most advanced economies seems to have coincided with the death of the middle class.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 February 2015)

Julia said:


> With due respect to Rosie Batty, if she or anyone else thinks taxing alcohol more heavily is going to solve DV they are very naive indeed.




You could say that, but until it's tried nobody knows.

Why not just try it and see what happens ?

Changes to pub closing hours in some areas in NSW has reduced drunken brawls, a measure which of course was opposed by people in the grog industry who said basically the same thing "it won't solve the problem". Unfortunately for them it at least reduced the problem. 

Everytime a particular group sees a threat to their income of course they will complain, but if  governments wants to solve problems then they need to have the guts to stand up to the special interest groups and try various alternatives.


----------



## sydboy007 (27 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> You could say that, but until it's tried nobody knows.
> 
> Why not just try it and see what happens ?
> 
> ...




Even if it doesn't reduce domestic violence, it would likely reduce the harm from excessive alcohol consumption.

Purely from a public health perspective it's worth doing.


----------



## Bintang (27 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Everytime a particular group sees a threat to their income of course they will complain, but if  governments wants to solve problems then they need to have the guts to stand up to the special interest groups and *try various alternatives*.




How about this alternative?

 - Everyone converts to Islam
 - No more alcohol
 - No more domestic violence 

View attachment 61773


----------



## Julia (27 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> You could say that, but until it's tried nobody knows.
> 
> Why not just try it and see what happens ?



Possibly because a quite large proportion of the population is on low incomes, including age pensioners, many of whom rather enjoy a glass of wine with their evening meal.  Were there to be a higher tax on alcohol, that would remove that small pleasure from many people who budget to the limit to pay such as electricity bills.

I agree with the changes to the previously utterly ridiculous pub closing hours of 5am or whatever it was.
No one needs to be out drinking into the small hours.
But awful though the drunken brawls are/were, they represent an infinitesimal  proportion of the population.

For some intelligent commentary on the causes of family violence, take the time to listen to this (or the transcript might be up by now)
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2015/s4188092.htm

It does away with the simplistic thinking that reducing alcohol consumption will solve the problem.

And, much as I admire the calm demeanour of Rosie Batty in the horrifying face of her son being killed, I can't see why we would place too much store on her opinions as to how to ameliorate domestic violence.  She has by her own admission lived with it for many years, found no solution, was unable to distance herself sufficiently from the violence to prevent her child from being killed.   I have never heard her say that her partner was necessarily affected by alcohol, or that it was an alcohol induced psychotic state that saw the child killed.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 February 2015)

Julia said:


> Possibly because a quite large proportion of the population is on low incomes, including age pensioners, many of whom rather enjoy a glass of wine with their evening meal.  Were there to be a higher tax on alcohol, that would remove that small pleasure from many people who budget to the limit to pay such as electricity bills.
> 
> .




Increased taxes on alcohol for those who drink small amounts would not hit the hip pocket as much as those who drink a lot, that is the purpose of discouraging excessive consumption. 

It's seems a bit hypocritical to disparage people who complain about having to pay a co payment to see a doctor for the benefit of their health, while saying that there should not be increased taxes on a drug that is harmful in large doses.


----------



## Tink (28 February 2015)

Bintang, regarding your question about the Royal Commission, both parties were talking about Domestic Violence prior to the election, but Labor has gone one step further with this RC.
I will be the first to say that we are soft on crime, and that victims and law abiding citizens are not being heard etc.
Our justice system, parole, bail etc, all need to be reviewed. With CCTV now, they have no excuses.

We would all hope we could get answers across the board to do with violence, but I am also hoping it doesn't end up a male bashing exercise.
I think we all know stories from both sides.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29219&highlight=feminism

We all need to stand up against violence, be it men, or women, or children.
Children seem to be the pawns through it all.
Victoria had a couple of horrific cases that stood out - 
Rosie Batty being one, losing her son.
The boys in the dam by their father, and the girl thrown over the bridge by her father.

They all left us heartbroken, that a parent could do that to their children. 
It does not happen and it shouldn't happen, is pretty much what went through us all.

In Qld, we saw the mother that killed her eight children.

We also had Jill Meagher here, where Bailey had a long history of violence, but nothing was ever done until she was murdered.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25474&highlight=jill+meagher

It is such a cross view looking at all those cases, imo.

Regarding alcohol, Syd, that was Rosie's comment, and though I have been an advocate in the past, I do wonder if we have made it worse, where now we have the problem with drugs. 
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24523&page=10&highlight=alcohol

As I have said before, once upon a time it was all a negative, to be drunk or wiped out, now people are trying to push it as a positive.
I don't agree with it 

Anyway, that is just my view.


----------



## Julia (28 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> It's seems a bit hypocritical to disparage people who complain about having to pay a co payment to see a doctor for the benefit of their health, while saying that there should not be increased taxes on a drug that is harmful in large doses.



The two situations are not comparable.
We all need Medicare.  The Medicare levy is insufficient to fund the complete cost of Medicare with the remainder having to be drawn from taxation revenue etc.  So a $7 co-payment *capped at $70 p.a.
* for pensioners et al seems pretty reasonable.  We already pay, largely without complaint, a part charge on prescriptions.

What is the actual basis for saying let's whack a tax on alcohol because it just might  reduce domestic violence?
Any evidence to that effect?
Tink above quotes the three now well known instances of the most dire family violence.  These tragedies were not caused by alcohol.  No mention of even the slightest involvement of alcohol has been made in any of these cases.  Helen Garner, in her outstanding book "This House of Grief", describes at some length the personality problems of the father who drove his children into the dam.

This is actually the link I meant to provide earlier:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-27/alcohol-might-not-be-the-cause-of-violent/6270156

The Labor government declared they were going to fix binge drinking in teenagers, so whacked a substantial tax on pre-mixed drinks.   No worries, said the kids:  they just bought whole bottles of spirits, added some mixers, and probably ended up consuming more alcohol than ever.

If people want to drink or take other drugs they will.

Suggesting an additional tax on alcohol will ameliorate family violence is even more silly than  putting a tax on rope because a lot of suicides are by hanging.  At least there we know the rope is involved.


----------



## Julia (28 February 2015)

We need to observe the government's hypocrisy in stating that 2015 must bring a reduction in family violence whilst they remove much of the funding to support services for women escaping that very violence.  Many refuges have had to close down, leaving women and their children with nowhere to go.

I often criticise the ABC but hopefully recognise their excellent contributions.  Last Monday's "Four Corners" on family violence was genuinely useful and would have provided anyone watching with considerable insight into the complexities of this issue.


----------



## Anglers Rest (1 March 2015)

Just on alcohol taxation and behaviour, this paper outlines some reasonably recent findings.
Elder et al. The same line was being taught when I was in undergraduate psychology a decade ago. While I don't believe DV is a symptom of readily available alcohol (although in many cases most likely made worse by it), increased pricing appears to be an effective way to reduce intake. I'm sure if alcohol is less available, other substances (inc moonshine) will be used instead, perhaps leading to alternative negative outcomes and possibly without reducing DV as hoped.

It is a shame though that taxation is not a very discriminant measure.


----------



## Tink (1 March 2015)

Agree with you, Julia, regarding the ABC and certain documentaries.

_Helen Garner, in her outstanding book "This House of Grief", describes at some length the personality problems of the father who drove his children into the dam._

This case of the father driving his children in the dam on Father's Day, was awful. 
I still remember Cindy refusing to believe that he had done this to their children, and standing by him at the start of the case. 
As each day passed, damning evidence came through.
It was sad to watch, and every few years, he still takes it to the High Court.


----------



## Tink (2 March 2015)

Agree, overhang. 

I also don't know anyone that agrees with the public holidays, just another way to fatten up the public sector, and put more pressure on businesses to close their doors. 
Higher costs, less work, fewer jobs. 
The Unions are running the show.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...g-out-union-ious/story-fni0ffsx-1227240563983

I am an AFL fan, but I don't see any need to have a holiday, the DAY BEFORE the Grand Final. 
It is not even Grand Final Day.


----------



## Tisme (3 March 2015)

noco said:


> It will be just another cost to business by the unions....The unions have stuffed this country with their demands over the past 60 years...Is it any wonder our manufacturing industry has gone west.




Australia is much better now than it was 60 years ago. I remember how things were in my childhood and if we went back to that then we would be stuffed.

The irony of the doomsayers who lament no plan for the future, is that the future was already predicted by the previous govt and the need for fast reorganisation and education imperatives to match so we could ascend into a higher plane of existence instead of competing with cheap labour cost alsorans up north of the equator.

For some reason the Australian public still have a romantic notion that the puritan ethic is the clever ethic and that we can't compete with the mercantile and services sectors of the first world countries. We still think we have one more Hills Hoist or Victor Mower in us to "put us on the map" and distract us from our cultural cringe. 

The Labor Party has many failings because it wears it's heart on it's sleeve. But it is a force majeure in Australian politics that has a good chance of winning power again due to the paralysis of the LNP and the wasted six years it should have been planning policy instead of panning the Lab govt. It was Labor who setup the post war industrialisation in the face of conservatives wanting us to be the food bowl and commodities provider for the United Kingdom. 

It was recent Labor who tried (and succeeded somewhat) in setting up education as an industry to sell into foreign nations. 

It was Labor who tried (and the legacy still has a pulse) to set up a new communications asset in the NBN that would more than offset the cost of install, but oppositional greed for power and cronyism prevailed.

It isn't Labor presiding over the collapse of the mining investment and build.

It isn't Labor presiding over the finality of the car industry.

It isn't Labor in charge of govt and in charge of budget that has 80% completion

It is not historically the LNP who build large industry in this country, but the Labs. 

I'm not a fan of either the Labs or Libs, but that is as I see it.


----------



## Tisme (3 March 2015)

Tink said:


> Agree, overhang.
> 
> I also don't know anyone that agrees with the public holidays, just another way to fatten up the public sector, and put more pressure on businesses to close their doors.
> Higher costs, less work, fewer jobs.
> ...




I have been successful business owner and before that a corporate high flyer and I never understood how self appointed oracles who have never owned a business manage to talk on behalf of an sector of the community who would eat their grandmas FTW. These "business councils" et al who advocate low wages, menial conditions and hard labour for food and shelter are part funded by govt to give legitimacy to govt policy decisions and invariably create a vacuum that savvy business type exploit for gain and profit.

Holidays are just as important to business as they are to workers. I shake my head when I hear advocates for Dickensian workhouse conditions and wonder at the persistence the Mr Bumbles broken records.

I take every holiday that is coming and want more so I can enjoy life without disorganised people ringing me about business imperatives that could have been avoided by better planning and more chillout. I also refuse to do any business work stuff on a weekend and made sure I was there for my family and friends instead. That's 40 plus years of habit and probably another 10 before I think about slowing down.

Success is not culling a workforce to make profit, it's not about segregating the whites from the blues, it's about stimulating growth and enjoining the individual parts of a business into a community within a community. It's about going to the footy and sitting in the cheap seats and yelling at the one eyed umpire/ref; it's about clinging to the remnants and innocence of childhood when everything was an adventure, not the copout of cynicism, envy and the mundane.


----------



## Tink (4 March 2015)

Tisme, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

These public holidays to me are to appease the public servants, which are all taxpayer funded.
I don't know too many people that didn't work 24/7 creating their business, and on top of that, having to work a second job for when the unions came in to shut it down. 

Yes, it's about the community, and I have also spoken to a few small business owners and their workers, that have negotiated within themselves on their pay, rather than watch their business go down.

Now back to this east west link - the end of the eastern freeway and Hoddle St are appauling, when is this Premier of ours going to listen to the people rather than the Greens.

The new thing is, he now wants to set up their own laws, where you can ban a contract.
Such a great thing for Victoria and Australia.
Who is going to invest here.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28524&page=11&p=852934#post852934


----------



## noco (4 March 2015)

Tink said:


> Tisme, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.
> 
> These public holidays to me are to appease the public servants, which are all taxpayer funded.
> I don't know too many people that didn't work 24/7 creating their business, and on top of that, having to work a second job for when the unions came in to shut it down.
> ...




What else would you expect from the Green/Labor coalition?

They say they are friends of the working man and yet they are destroying jobs...Such hypocrites.


----------



## noco (4 March 2015)

The Green/Labor left wing socialists just don't get it...Paul Kelly warns Labor of the consequences of blocking cuts to expenditure in the senate....The Green/Labor coalition have no interest the National welfare...only self interest in wrecking the economy more than they have already done.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|section|homepage|homepage&itmt=1425426994137
*
Paul Kelly warns against the Labor way to even more dangerous debt:

    New Treasury secretary John Fraser put the numbers and reality on the table last week in his first speech. He shocked much of the conventional thinking.

    Fraser said the figures showed Australia “has spent its way to a structural budget problem”. Revenue weakness was “only partly” to blame and Fraser argued “we cannot continue to finance recurrent expenditure by continuing to increase our debt"…

    Labor has never conceded the weight of the problem lies on the spending side. The Senate majority, led by Labor and the Greens, has rejected a long list of spending restraints and refused to negotiate on most of them. The Parliamentary Budget Office has found measures blocked by the Senate constitute $112 billion in lost funds over a decad*


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2015)

Tisme said:


> I have been successful business owner and before that a corporate high flyer and I never understood how self appointed oracles who have never owned a business manage to talk on behalf of an sector of the community who would eat their grandmas FTW. These "business councils" et al who advocate low wages, menial conditions and hard labour for food and shelter are part funded by govt to give legitimacy to govt policy decisions and invariably create a vacuum that savvy business type exploit for gain and profit.
> 
> Holidays are just as important to business as they are to workers. I shake my head when I hear advocates for Dickensian workhouse conditions and wonder at the persistence the Mr Bumbles broken records.
> 
> ...




I also guess in the companies you ran, everyone recieved the same pay and conditions, irrespective of their position.
Because after all, they are doing their best and should be rewarded the same, from the CEO down to the cleaner.

Why should someone be paid less, just because they weren't given the opportunity, or didn't have the ability:1zhelp:

Must be fabulous working for someone with your approach , integrity and moral beliefs in fairness.


----------



## Tisme (4 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I also guess in the companies you ran, everyone recieved the same pay and conditions, irrespective of their position.
> Because after all, they are doing their best and should be rewarded the same, from the CEO down to the cleaner.
> 
> Why should someone be paid less, just because they weren't given the opportunity, or didn't have the ability:1zhelp:
> ...




Yeah yeah, clever boy mincing words to troll ... what's your claim to successful management and business owner, without making it up?


----------



## Tisme (4 March 2015)

Tink said:


> Tisme, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.
> 
> These public holidays to me are to appease the public servants, which are all taxpayer funded.
> I don't know too many people that didn't work 24/7 creating their business, and on top of that, having to work a second job for when the unions came in to shut it down.
> ...




Absolutely Tink, I'm just saying that one size doesn't fit all and yes I have profited from competitors thinking they can offer the same worker incentives without looking at the productivity gains and leadership required. I too have run in with the unions on occasions and it leaves me seething, but then I have run in with clients who have also left me wanting blood on the streets.

I agree with you that govts should not reward their core supporters, but obviously any unwarranted legacy punishments should be removed. Unions blockading, work to rules, intimidating, closed shop, WH&S shutdowns etc are poor form and agitators held to account.

My biggest fear with Labor in QLD is they go off on their quest to be all things to all men rather than letting us get on with the job with the goal posts concreted in for a decent time.


----------



## noco (4 March 2015)

I wondered how long it would take Palazczuk to realize she will have to sell assets to pay off Bligh's $80 billion debt.
Now Palaszczuk is trying to back flip on the size of the assets.....So why didn't she define it before the election...Of course if she had, then, she would not be premier today.

And now  the Labor Party in NSW are asking voters to fall for the same three card trick Labor put over the Queensland voters....NSW Labor is on Palazczuk's band wagon of no asset sales. What a lot of cronies these Labor People are.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...sset-sales-issue/story-fnihsrf2-1227248238845


----------



## explod (4 March 2015)

Noco,  you bang on with empty rubbish. 

Lets think back to the sale of Telstra.   The amount realised into Government coffers at that time was only four times annual earnings.   Or if you like the annual revenue from Telstra was 25% of the sale price.   Like thefull price from the one off sale into our coffers every four years.  And we have made the same mistake with many other essential services over the years.  Power and water to name a few. 

Sure we have reduced the public service,  but that in turn has increased the dole recipients.  And privatisation of employment services has led to huge corruption by companies (offshore too) ripping off the people of Australia. 

And our deficits.   They are reduced by productivity and fair taxation by those who are earning well.   Such as the Reinhardts,  the crooked employment services and offshore companies.  

We can grow and breed all of our own food and to stop live exports would revitalise very  many country  towns across the full depth and spread of this wonderful country. 

I am not speaking as a leftie communist,  just common sense here and proffering what we in fact enjoyed under Liberal Prime Ministers such as Menzies and Fraser. 

Australia needs to be taken off the Forsale list,  it belongs to each and everyone of us.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yeah yeah, clever boy mincing words to troll ... what's your claim to successful management and business owner, without making it up?




Not trolling at all, I just get a bit fed up with your supercilious self righteous statements. 
I made a statement that you wouldn't have had a flat pay and incentive scheme, in your business or in a business you managed.
Yet you claim the high moral ground, for championing the down trodden that haven't had the opportunity or the ability to further themselves, it might sound great at the bbq, here it sounds shallow.

You are the one constantly having shots at posters with a conservative leaning, so most of your posts could be classed as trolling. Constantly making disparaging sweeping statements about their lack of concern for those less fortunate. Again that is your opinion, we have heard it endlessly, it is bordering on trolling.  

I don't have to espouse my career achievements, to all and sundry as I'm sure no one is really interested.

But I will say, I have always lived by the ethos of helping people, as I am currently doing.

But it is foolish to think, the underprivileged are better served, by ignoring the sustainability of the system.


----------



## noco (5 March 2015)

explod said:


> Noco,  you bang on with empty rubbish.
> 
> Lets think back to the sale of Telstra.   The amount realised into Government coffers at that time was only four times annual earnings.   Or if you like the annual revenue from Telstra was 25% of the sale price.   Like thefull price from the one off sale into our coffers every four years.  And we have made the same mistake with many other essential services over the years.  Power and water to name a few.
> 
> ...




What has your empty rhetoric got to do with Palaszczuk in Queensland.....She made a promise never to sell Queensland's assets and now she is trying weasel her way around it.....You don't seem to want to accept the truth so you diversify into Federal Politics....Typical.


----------



## Tisme (5 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Not trolling at all, .





Yes you are. You are indignant at someone not agreeing with your politics and you know it. 

You think labelling me anti LNP is somehow an insult, predicated on your own opinion. You might as well label me anti Lab and anti Green too because that would round out the truth of the matter. Can you handle that there are people out there who just want good govt regardless of political tribalism?


----------



## Tisme (5 March 2015)

noco said:


> I wondered how long it would take Palazczuk to realize she will have to sell assets to pay off Bligh's $80 billion debt.
> Now Palaszczuk is trying to back flip on the size of the assets.....So why didn't she define it before the election...Of course if she had, then, she would not be premier today.
> 
> And now  the Labor Party in NSW are asking voters to fall for the same three card trick Labor put over the Queensland voters....NSW Labor is on Palazczuk's band wagon of no asset sales. What a lot of cronies these Labor People are.
> ...




I heard on the radio that Annastacia was being recruited by NSW Labor. Does LIB NSW have the same nastiness that the Newman Govt did?


----------



## sptrawler (5 March 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yes you are. You are indignant at someone not agreeing with your politics and you know it.
> 
> You think labelling me anti LNP is somehow an insult, predicated on your own opinion. You might as well label me anti Lab and anti Green too because that would round out the truth of the matter. Can you handle that there are people out there who just want good govt regardless of political tribalism?




That again, is just your wonderment, at your own verbosity.

Tribalism was epitomised by the the last Labor Government, and was highlighted by the mass exodus of senior ministers and members.
Again, just because you like fantasy writing, doest make it true.

The Labor party lost some of its finest, due to tribal infighting, some were putting personal survival or personal gain, before party principles.

I'm from blue collar background and don't espouse to your greatness, however I can tell you from a blue collar background, the Labor Party has been hijacked by chardonay socialists.

The last thing they represent is the rank and file, that's why union membership is at all time lows, and caring and sharing lawyers are at all time highs in the labor party.
So high flying corporate businessman  and successfull business owner, was everyone on your payroll on similar money or were the plebs, still the plebs?

Having said all that, I am gratefull that you feel sorry for my plight and I tip my hat to that.

Labor has become a lazy lawyers way into a lifetime income.IMO That's a perception that is evolving.


----------



## Ferret (5 March 2015)

Tisme said:


> Does LIB NSW have the same nastiness that the Newman Govt did?




No.  Baird is doing a pretty good job.  

His intention to sell off power assets will cost him some votes, but he should still get back in.

Probably time for a NSW election thread.


----------



## IFocus (5 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I'm from blue collar background and don't espouse to your greatness, however I can tell you from a blue collar background, the Labor Party has been hijacked by chardonay socialists.




Just out of interest based on what?

The last Labor governments that you hated so much actually looked after the bottom end while your current heroes have done nothing but rape the same people stupid.


----------



## drsmith (6 March 2015)

IF,

Have you been fed cat litter tonight instead of bird seed ?


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2015)

IFocus said:


> Just out of interest based on what?
> 
> The last Labor governments that you hated so much actually looked after the bottom end while your current heroes have done nothing but rape the same people stupid.




Wondered when a landlord, would jump in to back up the corporate high flyer.lol

The Labor Government did nothing to protect the bottom end, they threw them a $900 cheque, that is costing them heaps.

Also it will cost more as the debt balloons to pay for the batts, the school halls. The dumb carbon tax that increased the cost of the only advantage we had, cheap power.

Sent most marginal manufacturing offshore immediately, even the solar panel manufacturer, that had been producing here for 25 years.

You all want to talk up your heart warming rhetoric, but switch off from the realities, but love the cheap shot.

The mining tax, how would that be working now? Dumb arsed policy from dumb arsed government.

Just ask Martin Ferguson or Simon Crean they regenerated Labor, but jumped ship because they became disillusioned.

But keep your pinkies out while having a cheer for the battler.


----------



## noco (6 March 2015)

When is an asset not an asset?.....Whether it is incoming producing or land or buildings they are all still assets.

"THERE WILL BE NO ASSET SALES UNDER A GOVERNMENT I LEAD".

Palaszczuk could not have made it any clearer.....Had she defined it before the election she may now be still in opposition.....LIES, LIES and more LIES.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ides_some_state_assets_can_be_sold_after_all/


----------



## banco (6 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> The mining tax, how would that be working now? Dumb arsed policy from dumb arsed government.




It's obvious you've never understood what the mining tax was for or you'd know that nobody would be paying it now. Speaking of dumb arses.


----------



## noco (6 March 2015)

banco said:


> It's obvious you've never understood what the mining tax was for or you'd know that nobody would be paying it now. Speaking of dumb arses.




Labors dumb mining tax cost more to administer than the revenue gained.....Not only that The Green/Labor left wing socialist spent the money they thought they would receive.  What dumb arses the Labor Party are


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2015)

banco said:


> It's obvious you've never understood what the mining tax was for or you'd know that nobody would be paying it now. Speaking of dumb arses.




That is dead right, also most of the junior miners would be out of business, as they wouldn't be able to raise funding.

Yes great, have a tax that hits a sector with huge exploration and up front capital cost.

If they have a few good years, hammer them, if they are losing money hand over fist just tax them like other businesses.

What a brilliant plan. OMG
Real rabbit out of the hat tax policy. Why only hit miners if they make a 'super profit' what about other companies? why exempt them?
Because dumb Labor, used knee jerk policy, to try and stem the fiscal bleed.


----------



## banco (6 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> What a brilliant plan. OMG
> Real rabbit out of the hat tax policy. Why only hit miners if they make a 'super profit' what about other companies? why exempt them?
> Because dumb Labor, used knee jerk policy, to try and stem the fiscal bleed.




To take the steam out of mining booms so they don't drive the currency up and hollow out the rest of the economy?


----------



## noco (7 March 2015)

When will the Green/Labor left wing socialist crawl out of their cocoons and begin to realize the necessity to do something about the economy....They have been in denial since the 2013 election and their negative approach to the situation is starting to wear thin with the average Joe Blow...Maybe another boost in the polls for Abbott next week may set a rocket up Shorten or else HIS job maybe on the line instead of Abbott's.  

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|section|homepage|homepage&itmt=1425690089592


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I can tell you from a blue collar background, the Labor Party has been hijacked by chardonay socialists.




I'd argue that the Labor party today is somewhat comparable to what the Liberal party was a generation or two ago in terms of Left versus Right. Meanwhile the Liberals have moved well to the Right with their nastiness and "born to rule" thinking. 

The Greens haven't changed greatly though. Lost some of the grassroots aspects yes, but their overall philosophy hasn't really gone to the Right as has occurred with Labor and Liberal.

What Australia desperately needs is good leadership and good policy regardless of who's in power. It's not impossible, and it's not unprecedented to have both unions and the business lobby backing the same side at least at a state level. And if you can get both on side, through sensible policy, well then you're pretty much guaranteed to find yourself in government.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2015)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'd argue that the Labor party today is somewhat comparable to what the Liberal party was a generation or two ago in terms of Left versus Right. Meanwhile the Liberals have moved well to the Right with their nastiness and "born to rule" thinking.
> 
> The Greens haven't changed greatly though. Lost some of the grassroots aspects yes, but their overall philosophy hasn't really gone to the Right as has occurred with Labor and Liberal.
> 
> What Australia desperately needs is good leadership and good policy regardless of who's in power. It's not impossible, and it's not unprecedented to have both unions and the business lobby backing the same side at least at a state level. And if you can get both on side, through sensible policy, well then you're pretty much guaranteed to find yourself in government.




The Labor Party today is nowhere near as right winged as the Hawke/Keating government. The Hawke Keating wage accord reduced real wages 20%. That can be easily checked for accuracy.
The government, with the co operation of the unions, reduced wages and conditions, in real terms.
I'm not saying it wasn't necessary, but to ignore the fact it happened is deceptive, the unions and government realised action had to be taken and did it.
They certainly weren't taken to task and abused, as the current government is.

To say the coalition has had a massive step to the right is a bit weird, Malcolm Fraser a couple of decades ago, was one of the most right wing Liberals I've ever had the misfortune to have been a taxpayer under.

People are in for a real shock, if they think the current coalition government is extreme right.
They obviously haven't been through a real recession and been unemployed. 

I don't know where you were through the last two recessions smurph, but saying that this government is extreme right wing, would indicate to me you haven't seen extreme right wing.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2015)

banco said:


> To take the steam out of mining booms so they don't drive the currency up and hollow out the rest of the economy?




Well the steam is certainly out of the mining boom, and the mining tax had nothing to do with it. dumb tax policy from a dumb government. 
Populist policy to prop up an inept government, absolute dicks, that's why Shortens dribble is failing.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2015)

banco said:


> To take the steam out of mining booms so they don't drive the currency up and hollow out the rest of the economy?




Jeez I mean it is great to be one eyed and parochial banco, but we are going backwards at $50million dollars a day.

Get a grip, that is a really big shortfall, the miners are going broke and unemployment is going up.

It all sounds nice to bag the government for being concerned, I personally am really worried, the economy is hollowed out without the aid of the mining industry.


----------



## noco (11 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez I mean it is great to be one eyed and parochial banco, but we are going backwards at $50million dollars a day.
> 
> Get a grip, that is a really big shortfall, the miners are going broke and unemployment is going up.
> 
> It all sounds nice to bag the government for being concerned, I personally am really worried, the economy is hollowed out without the aid of the mining industry.




She'll be right SP...when Labor get back in they will fix it and pigs might fly.

The aim of the Green/Labor left wing socialists is to send the country down the gurgler with another huge debt, renege on payment to the Chinese and move to central control.....sounds like another Greece coming up.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2015)

Apparently Labor is concerned about the amount of students dropping out of uni after the first year.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-dropout-rate-if-elected-20150311-141cf5.html

It wouldn't be because they shouldn't have been there in the first place? would it.

No just throw more money at it.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Apparently Labor is concerned about the amount of students dropping out of uni after the first year.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-dropout-rate-if-elected-20150311-141cf5.html
> 
> ...




Yes, or they realise the courses are a waste of time. Some of the most successful people in recent history are Uni dropouts - that facebook guy, that Microsoft guy etc. Imagine if they hadn't left.


----------



## noco (13 March 2015)

I just listened to an interview between John Faine  and Bill Shorten....How anyone could possibly make any sense out of that interview is beyond me.....Shorten was asked some 10 times how he would raise revenue to pay off debt and things like infrastructure, health and education and he evaded the question each time......Shorten wants to be the alternative Prime Minister and he does not have a clue how to handle the finances....  


https://soundcloud.com/774-abc-melbourne/who-is-bill-shorten-mornings-with-jon-faine


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2015)

noco said:


> I just listened to an interview between John Faine  and Bill Shorten....How anyone could possibly make any sense out of that interview is beyond me.....Shorten was asked some 10 times how he would raise revenue to pay off debt and things like infrastructure, health and education and he evaded the question each time......Shorten wants to be the alternative Prime Minister and he does not have a clue how to handle the finances....
> 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/774-abc-melbourne/who-is-bill-shorten-mornings-with-jon-faine




Well the classic comment there noco, was at about the 3.20 point, where the idiot said the mining boom and resource prices have dropped and the mining boom of *the last six years is over*.

Well they precided over the boom and stuffed it. Talk about digging holes with your mouth, how people can criticise Abbott, when you listen to his dribble is beyond me.

Fairfax needs to watch its step, if they think Bill is their champion.

Great post noco.


----------



## noco (16 March 2015)

Senator Mitch Fifield on question time in Parliament today......So why have these pair of idiots done a back flip

*Bill Shorten has now put Federal Labor in the ludicrous position of supporting Daniel Andrews and the Victorian Government in tearing up contracts for the East West Link, sending shivers down the spine of international investors.

This flies in the face of the sensible comments of his Shadow Treasurer Chris Bowen at Press Club speech at the National Press Club in September last year where he said:

“Bill Shorten and I are of one mind, Labor honours contracts. Labor in Government honours contracts entered into by previous governments. Even if we don’t like them for issues of sovereign risk Labor honours contracts entered into by previous governments.”

SHARE if you think Bill Shorten is wrong.
'Bill Shorten today said he opposes the East West Link. Why is he opposing a road that will make life easier for Victorians and create jobs? SHARE if you think Bill Shorten is wrong.'*


----------



## Tink (17 March 2015)

Agree, noco, a backstabber and a backflipper.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=28524&page=12&p=863542&viewfull=1#post863542

It is true that the Victorian Labor party are divided on the East West Link, was mentioned on 3AW radio station a few days ago.
How I see it, we have been hijacked by the minority Greens.
It was mentioned that Daniel Andrews was contemplating building the second stage.
Of course, everyone has kicked up and said, build it all.

We have had a few well known people come forward through the Grand Prix that want this East West Link saying,

*Melbourne reassured the GP contract is binding, and I thought Vic contracts were not worth the paper they were written on 
*
They are not thinking very highly of him.


----------



## noco (17 March 2015)

We now have a case in Queensland where a school in Fortitude Valley with less than 60 kids was closed in 2013 for economic reasons.

The property is worth some $50 million and Palaszczuk and Kate Jones have decided to retain it.

Are they going to reopen the school or do they fear a back lash on their promise not to sell assets.....It seems to be a secret service with Labor after promising open government.

Typical Labor no plan for the future of this state, no new ideas and no plan on how to reduce the Beattie/Bligh $80 billion debt. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...265427919?sv=8728689aaf50b21320b6f0c193748d30


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2015)

In W.A not long ago, Labor and the unions were saying, the new Fiona Stanley hospital couldn't get staff.

Now they are saying there isn't enough parking, they haven't got a problem with staff, just too many.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-30/hames-concedes-fiona-stanley-hospital-problems/6359928

It seems Labor can talk endless $hit, and the media will keep printing it.

Why people buy newspapers, is the next wonder of the world, it is just mindless gossip from self obsessed mushrooms.IMO


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2015)

What is with this Billie Gordon issue in Queensland?

The Labor Party say they had no idea, yet there is pictures of him with Rudd years ago.

You would think after the dubious members past, Labor would be a bit more efficient and thorough with their selections.

But then again, when you think about their policy process, I guess any snake oil salesman can get through.

Labor the Party to see you through to retirement. All you need is pre selection.lol


----------



## noco (31 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> What is with this Billie Gordon issue in Queensland?
> 
> The Labor Party say they had no idea, yet there is pictures of him with Rudd years ago.
> 
> ...




It will be interesting to see how the Queensland situation with Bill Gordon plats out.

Palaszczuk won the election by default, she did not expect to win and was in shock when she realized she had the Beattie/ Bligh mess on her hands and now she has it, she does not know what to do with it.

I am sure she will be happy to lose a bi-election and hand back the baton to the LNP because it has become all too difficult for her...She says she will put her job on the line and good reason why.


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2015)

Anna might be hoping to retain Billy Gordon's seat in a by-election on the basis that it's traditionally been a Labor electorate. 

I see the Katter outfit is trying to extract its pound of flesh and the campaigning from the majors has already begun in Queensland's far north,



> Ms Palaszczuk is visiting Mr Gordon's electorate today and is expected to comment on the letter.
> 
> Opposition Leader Lawrence Springborg is also in the state's far north.
> 
> Earlier, he told the ABC he wanted to hear locals' concerns about the political crisis.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...-second-woman-accuses-mp-billy-gordon/6360860


----------



## jarryd (31 March 2015)

Its always the same old argument and both sides have their pros and their cons. Always have, always will. 

At least it gives people something to discuss.  It would be boring if it didn't.


----------



## trainspotter (31 March 2015)

You would think that (irrespective of any Party) that they would run a police clearance or a background check on ALL candidates heading into parliament or even the crazies that nominate to run for an elected position? 

Afterall if you are applying for a job in the finance sector the employer runs your whole life through the mill as well as contacting personal acquaintances and referees BUT you run for State or Federal parliament and you get a questionnaire asking if you have been a good boy/girl/whatever?? 

Errmmmmmmmmmmm does anyone else think this is strange?

Oh yeah ... Ms Palaszczuk is in a world of pain. 



> Queensland's political leaders are visiting the region where a possible by-election could determine the fate of the Labor minority government.
> 
> Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has moved against Cook MP Billy Gordon for failing to disclose his criminal history, allegations of domestic violence and not paying child support.
> 
> ...




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/busines...by-election-talk/story-fnn9c0hb-1227285632337

Can't wait for Billy Gordon to play the "race" card on this one ....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...s-should-decide-mp-billy-gordons-fate/6360502


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Can't wait for Billy Gordon to play the "race" card on this one ....
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...s-should-decide-mp-billy-gordons-fate/6360502



Yes, that's clearly where Noel Pearson is going. Billy's only fallen foul of the Labor Party's disclosure rules in his view.

A note for the ABC host in that interview with Noel Pearson,

Billy Gordon didn't leave the Labor party. He was expelled.


----------



## dutchie (31 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> Yes, that's clearly where Noel Pearson is going. Billy's only fallen foul of the Labor Party's disclosure rules in his view.
> 
> A note for the ABC host in that interview with Noel Pearson,
> 
> Billy Gordon didn't leave the Labor party. He was expelled.




Noel Pearson:
"I feel that [the Labor Party] have thrown him under a very brutal bus,"

I wonder if it's the same bus the woman (women) were thrown under?


----------



## trainspotter (31 March 2015)

Gee ... these reporters must be reading ASF?



> The solution to this and future damaging controversies would be *mandatory police checks on election candidates*, with the results available to electors. It is clear from the Gordon case that the candidate will not always volunteer the information.
> It’s the question of trust which is important here, not the shadows of past indiscretions. The most pertinent criticism of Mr Gordon is not based on his brushes with the law dating back to 1987 when he was a youngster, but his refusal to submit a full list to his party leader or his voters. It appears he was hiding parts of his life.
> Past medical conditions are important in assessing people for some jobs; previous ethical positions should be identifiable in politics.
> 
> Workers in the *finance industry *can be required to undergo a check every time they change an aspect of their business, and public servants in sensitive areas have to undergo more scrutiny than most




http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...go-police-checks/story-fns0jze1-1227286497957

Words fail me ... read all about it here first in ASF before the pressers get hold of it.


----------



## Bintang (31 March 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Gee ... these reporters must be reading ASF?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Or could it be the reporters are first testing their ideas out at ASF before they publish elsewhere.


----------



## trainspotter (31 March 2015)

Dear God is there no shame among this lot ...



> Speaker Peter Wellington this afternoon tabled advice from the Clerk of Parliament regarding whether Mr Gordon could continue on as an MP, following revelations about previous criminal convictions and allegations of domestic violence which have been referred to police.
> 
> The clerk advised the failure to lodge tax returns or pay child support in a timely manner did not disqualify Mr Gordon from being an MP.
> 
> ...




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ly-gordon-crisis/story-fnn8dlfs-1227284704011


----------



## Knobby22 (1 April 2015)

It's just a question of law. I can't see any shame here. He is entitled to stay as an MP. 

How did he get picked by the Labor Party though? That's where the shame is. Don't they do checks?


----------



## trainspotter (1 April 2015)

And now for the show stopper ...



> The pilot of former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's ministerial jet has confirmed the existence of a long-rumoured napkin used to sketch out the first iteration of the national broadband network, today listing the used serviette for sale.
> 
> Rumours have long circulated that the first version of the $37.4 billion national broadband network was laid out by former Communications Minister Stephen Conroy to Rudd on the back of a table napkin during a prime ministerial flight in 2009.
> 
> ...





Read more: http://www.itnews.com.au/News/402273,nbn-napkin-lists-on-ebay-for-5000.aspx#ixzz3W0ehIz2j 

I am going to the bank today with a serviette that has a sketch of a 40 billion dollar aquaculture industry on it whereby all the residents of Australia can get their very own piece of fish to eat for the rest of their lives. Afterall if you can teach a man to fish right?


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2015)

It's the right day for something like that. It looks like the work of an 8yo, in more ways than one.

I'll just wish best of luck to the seller.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2015)

By the colour of the dribble on the napkin, it would definitely confirm it is Conroy's work.


----------



## trainspotter (1 April 2015)

It would have been better if there was Conroys signature on it and there was some red wine stain in the top right hand corner. More legit and better street cred.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2015)

Labor still prefers wealth redistribution over balancing the budget,



> One possibility is that Labor could support new tax arrangements for high-end super fund accounts in exchange for a commitment from the government to recommence the staged progress toward a 12 per cent compulsory employer-funded superannuation goal, which has been paused by the government




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...concessions-for-the-rich-20150401-1md29e.html


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> Labor still prefers wealth redistribution over balancing the budget,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...concessions-for-the-rich-20150401-1md29e.html




Yes I read that Fairfax headline " Labor to end super concessions for the rich". LOL

Labor aren't in Government, and when they were in government, they didn't end them, so why all the bull$hit.

If the Coalition Government decides to curb the super tax concessions, Labor will support it.

Like I said, why didn't they sort it, when they were in office?

Because they are useless, and want to ride on the shirt tails of Coalition reform, they are a disgrace. 

Bloody shamefull bunch of gutless back stabbing spineless ghosts, nothing of substance.

Also Fairfax are just as shameless, for not asking the question of Labor,
"Why didn't you fix it you FW's"


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2015)

On matters Fairfax, they're reporting that Guardian columnist David Marr will be doing a quarterly essay on Bill Shorten,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-another-quarterly-essay-20150401-1mcikx.html

Will it favour Bill or Tanya ?


----------



## trainspotter (1 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> Labor still prefers wealth redistribution over balancing the budget,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...concessions-for-the-rich-20150401-1md29e.html




Eric Arthur Blair wrote a book on it Doc .. something about social equality I think?

Social equality is a state of affairs in which all people within a specific society or isolated group have the same status in certain respects.


----------



## dutchie (1 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> On matters Fairfax, they're reporting that Guardian columnist David Marr will be doing a quarterly essay on Bill Shorten,




Should be very short (pun) essays, as Bill does not stand for much.


----------



## noco (5 April 2015)

As I have mentioned in some previous posts, the anti Islam rallies that took place in some capital cities yesterday, is all about dividing the community.....the 50,000 boat people let in by Rudd and Gillard was designed specifically to just that....divide the community into racial hate.

The burning down of 4 churches this week adds fuel to the fire and even one woman stated it is pleasing to drive past that burnt out church......will some mosques be bombed in retaliation?....Quite possibly.

So, where is Australia heading with all this?.....Do we really need these people whom we have befriended into our society who are intent in trying to bring in their own Sharia law...Why can't they accept our laws and live the way we live in Australia....After WW11 we brought in thousands if immigrants from England and Europe without all this dissension that is taking place now.....Even the Vietnamese people assimilated into the community....So why should we tolerate the way Islam is taking a hold on this country as well as other Western countries? 

The Fabian indoctrinated Labor can be thanked for splitting our communities...I once stated Muslims are very moderate in small numbers but once those numbers increase that is when they start to show their muscle and it is happening right now.



http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...290962049?sv=a9418de16e2bd50b0ae00b97aa0b6429

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/

*They have opened the doors to illegal invaders who are bringing in a religion that goes totally against our way of life. They are using Islam to create divisions in our society and turn citizen against citizen. At the same time, they have neglected our own needy; our aged and veterans, the  very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.*


----------



## Tisme (7 April 2015)

noco said:


> .After WW11 we brought in thousands if immigrants from England and Europe without all this dissension that is taking place now.....Even the Vietnamese people assimilated into the community....So why should we tolerate the way Islam is taking a hold on this country as well as other Western countries?




I'm not sure I agree with your premise Noco. 

Firstly even the English migrant was given the rounds and shown resentment from the locals;
The olive skinned Italians where eyed with suspicion, but admired for their industry;
Even 3rd gen Yugoslavs were treated as guests upto the seventies, similarly anyone else who wasn't Nordic white;
The second gen Vietnamese offspring seized control of the drug trade from the Italians and used machettes to enforce their rule;
There is still strong ethnic bonding, even three gens on in those immigrant families, where marriage and deals done are along genetic and religious lines;
etc

The bid difference with immigration then and now is that we used to import technical skills required for an industrial and primary economy, now we import labourers and public servants.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 April 2015)

Luck the Libs are in and increased the immigration rate to 400,000 a year then, hey noco?


----------



## sptrawler (7 April 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> Luck the Libs are in and increased the immigration rate to 400,000 a year then, hey noco?




Yes I noticed that, how ridiculous when unemployment is rising, keep feeding it. When we have an unsustainable welfare system, keep loading it up.
With the expected blow out in the aged population, I hope the 400,000 new arrivals, were aged 15 or under.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 April 2015)

I'm not anti immigration we need and must have it.  ...but I also don't think high immigration with no real plan is the answer to all our woes.


----------



## noco (8 April 2015)

Martin Ferguson is one of the last true Labor men who are becoming few and far between.

The Labor Party has shifted too far to the left and have slowly come under the influence of the Fabian Society....Democratic Socialism (communism ) seeking central control.

Martin Ferguson was critical of the NSW Labor party for their dirty tactics and it obvious he was not very well received, so now the Labor Party want to expel him...Where is Bill Shorten in all this?


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ns_which_attack_ferguson_arent_worth_joining/


----------



## Tisme (8 April 2015)

noco said:


> Martin Ferguson is one of the last true Labor men who are becoming few and far between.
> 
> The Labor Party has shifted too far to the left and have slowly come under the influence of the Fabian Society....Democratic Socialism (communism ) seeking central control.
> 
> ...




What is it about Andrew Bolt that I can't take seriously .... I know .... it's the drivel that he writes.


----------



## noco (8 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> What is it about Andrew Bolt that I can't take seriously .... I know .... it's the drivel that he writes.




If you were more astute you would have noticed Bolt is only the messenger.

Janet Albrechtsen wrote the article.......Janet is on the ABC committee who selects ABC employees.


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2015)

Saw a useless labor senator on the news, asking why isn't Google, Apple etc, paying tax?

Funny he didn't ask the question, a year or so ago when Labor were in office, jeez they really are dumb.

Also on the same note, Labor and the media  were paying out on Hockey, for not naming and shaming the mining companies involved in tax avoidance.

I'm sure they heard the tax commissioner, the same as the rest of us, "they can't be named at this point in time".

Wow obviously reporting the facts, is the furthest thing from the media's mind, Hockey bashing is so much better.
It's a shame the media, can't do an investigation into how much the resource rent tax, was going to make this year.
Also how much of a budget shortfall we would have had, as Labor had already spent the the proceeds, of the resource rent tax.

Absolutely useless, the media and Labor.


----------



## noco (8 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Saw a useless labor senator on the news, asking why isn't Google, Apple etc, paying tax?
> 
> Funny he didn't ask the question, a year or so ago when Labor were in office, jeez they really are dumb.
> 
> ...




They are a protected species...The biased media are fearing the Labor Party may become extinct .


----------



## Tink (9 April 2015)

As I have said before, Tisme, we align to journalists that we relate to, and I have to say - 

Thank God for Andrew Bolt of late, and am glad that he speaks out.
Also  http://westerncivilisation.ipa.org.au/

Miranda Devine is another.

With Dan Andrews - Labor, and the Greens in Melbourne, they are slowly destroying our state.
Who would want to invest here?

Everyday I could be in here writing disasters to their list 

- Peter Mac Cancer Centre being one 
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...ew-hospital-plan/story-fni0fit3-1227289786087

Let's all throw our private health cover in the wind.

Now the Water Board, being his latest 
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...-be-readvertised/story-fni0fit3-1227295561244


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## Tisme (9 April 2015)

Tink said:


> As I have said before, Tisme, we align to journalists that we relate to, and I have to say -
> 
> Thank God for Andrew Bolt of late, and am glad that he speaks out.
> Also  http://westerncivilisation.ipa.org.au/
> ...




Yes but Bolt and his stable mates have been so blinkered to anything other than the LNP that even when they state the bleeding obvious, there is a niggling feeling the story is not really a story, but propaganda in favour of the LNP.


----------



## dutchie (9 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yes but Bolt and his stable mates have been so blinkered to anything other than the LNP that even when they state the bleeding obvious, there is a niggling feeling the story is not really a story, but propaganda in favour of the LNP.




This may be true but this is truer (can there be grades of truth??):-

Yes but the ABC,SBS, Fairfax and their stable mates have been so blinkered to anything other than the LP that even when they state the bleeding obvious, there is a niggling feeling the story is not really a story, but propaganda in favour of the LP.


----------



## Tisme (9 April 2015)

dutchie said:


> This may be true but this is truer (can there be grades of truth??):-
> 
> Yes but the ABC,SBS, Fairfax and their stable mates have been so blinkered to anything other than the LP that even when they state the bleeding obvious, there is a niggling feeling the story is not really a story, but propaganda in favour of the LP.




That could also be true, but Noco doesn't use them as example to support his argument. Personally I don't like any blatant party loyalty by supposed professional journalists, be it Greens, LNP or LP. But then I don't hold any party in high regard, preferring individuals' performance over political unions (which is what the LNP, LP and Greens essentially are).


----------



## Tink (10 April 2015)

Agree, dutchie, and it's taxpayer funded on their (Labor/Greens) part with their ABC.

Yes, I know, Tisme, you don't lean on either side, but we have had a lot going on in Melbourne the last few weeks which has been pretty disappointing, and am glad that Andrew Bolt, being a Melbournian, was bringing things up that should have been said.
Nothing worse than not having a voice, and being shut out.

Freedom of speech, is my issue.

Now back to Victorian Labor --

Labor does the time warp again 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/labor-does-the-time-warp-again/story-fni0fh8t-1227296180996

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...f_the_thinking_that_gave_victoria_a_desal_wh/


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2015)

Labor are saying they will make Multinationals pay their fair share of tax.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...inational-profitshifters-20150410-1mih3g.html

How come they didn't do it, when they were in office for six of the last seven years, the tax dodging has been going on for years.

Absolutely useless.

Fairfax would be the only group, who would have the gall, to not criticise Labors hypocrisy. IMO


----------



## Tink (11 April 2015)

What a disaster this Labor/Greens Govt has become, sacking whole boards, people resigning, makes you wonder what he is up to.
Welcome to the Communist state of Victoria.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/p...man-wendy-harris-resigns-20150410-1migc0.html


----------



## noco (11 April 2015)

Tink said:


> What a disaster this Labor/Greens Govt has become, sacking whole boards, people resigning, makes you wonder what he is up to.
> Welcome to the Communist state of Victoria.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/p...man-wendy-harris-resigns-20150410-1migc0.html




Similar things are happening in Queensland.

Welcome to the communist state of Queensland...

And here we have Palaszczuk closely associated with this union criminal thug Hanna.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rasses-palasczuk/story-fnihsr9v-1227299042566

*It was the same Hanna, president of the notorious CFMEU, who last year was adversely named at the Royal Commission into Union Governance and Corruption.

Hanna was accused not only of workplace breaches but of engaging in criminal activity by threatening Hindmarsh Constructions from going about its lawful business during the building of an apartment tower, Brooklyn on Brookes, in Brisbane’s Fortitude Valley last year.

“Mr Hanna engaged in criminal activity, committing offences under s359 of the Criminal Code (Qld),” the royal commission heard.

Threatening to cause detriment to another is an offence carrying a five-year jail term, the commission noted.

Hanna is well known in Labor circles and was boss of the Labor Unity faction and is a member of the Queensland Central Executive of the Council of Unions which dictates Labor policy.

He was secretary of the Builders Labourers Federation before it merged with the CFMEU.

I believe the Premier is an honourable woman and I am not for a moment suggesting she was involved in any impropriety with Hanna or other CFMEU officials facing charges.

However the cosy selfie confirms the deep links between her party and the union described in Parliament as a criminal organisation renowned for its “extortion, thuggery and lawlessness”.

Palaszczuk is, like many in her Cabinet, close to the unions. She “paid tribute” to the unions in State Parliament in 2013.

She lavished praise on the CFMEU, the BLF, the AWU and the AMWU “for standing up for workers’ rights in this state”.*


----------



## Tink (16 April 2015)

What an absolute joke the Labor/Greens are in Victoria.

$640m forked out on road to nowhere

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...-no-compo-pledge/story-fni0fit3-1227305420222


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## noco (16 April 2015)

This is something I have stated on two occasions....The Victorian and Queensland Labor governments are heading for a train  wreck and come the 2016 Federal election voters in those two states will have had enough of Green/Labor dominated by left wing socialist unions..

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...-new-best-friend/story-fni0ffxg-1227305361618


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## noco (16 April 2015)

Talk about hypocrisy.....Shorten accuses the Liberal Government of broken promises....This man Shorten is a two timer.....His initials says it all......he is dictated to by the CFMEU. 

From Facebook

*Bill Shorten used to support the East West Link. Now he’s betrayed Victorians, who have been hit with a huge “Bill” and no road or jobs.
SHARE if you think Labor should apologies for worsening traffic gridlock.
Liberal Party of Australia's photo.*


----------



## Tisme (17 April 2015)

noco said:


> This is something I have stated on two occasions....The Victorian and Queensland Labor governments are heading for a train  wreck and come the 2016 Federal election voters in those two states will have had enough of Green/Labor dominated by left wing socialist unions..
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...-new-best-friend/story-fni0ffxg-1227305361618





I can't talk for Vic, but I think the LNP will have a hard time coming back into governance in QLD after the arrogance of their last stint. I'm quite enjoying the absence of a weekly legislation taking away our freedoms of association, freedom to make mistakes, freedom to have an alternative view to LNP and ALP policies.


----------



## noco (17 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> I can't talk for Vic, but I think the LNP will have a hard time coming back into governance in QLD after the arrogance of their last stint. I'm quite enjoying the absence of a weekly legislation taking away our freedoms of association, freedom to make mistakes, freedom to have an alternative view to LNP and ALP policies.




You ain't seen nothing in Queensland yet.....Things will go from bad to worse mark my words.

Palaszczuk still has not told Queensland how she intends to reduce the $80 billion racked up by the Beattie/Bligh left wing socialist Government over 10 years....They racked it up in a mining boom and still had to sell $18 billion of our assets.

Palaszczuk will also be a one term government.


----------



## Tisme (17 April 2015)

noco said:


> You ain't seen nothing in Queensland yet.....Things will go from bad to worse mark my words.
> 
> Palaszczuk still has not told Queensland how she intends to reduce the $80 billion racked up by the Beattie/Bligh left wing socialist Government over 10 years....They racked it up in a mining boom and still had to sell $18 billion of our assets.
> 
> Palaszczuk will also be a one term government.




Did you ever read how that $80bn was worked out by Costello? Did you ever wonder how his terms of reference included the target deficit figure that he had to reverse engineer his numbers to...it's all there on the govt site. WE paid millions to have him do an A=O+L arithmetic, where L was locked in at $80bn and owners equity was devalued to suit accordingly.... that's right he simply wrote off 20% of QLD's assets values, then used excerpts out of context from Standard and Poor's own AAA+ ratings report for the state.

I have so little regard for the debt figure asserted I would rather just ignore it as just another Courier Mail piece of fluff.


----------



## noco (17 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> Did you ever read how that $80bn was worked out by Costello? Did you ever wonder how his terms of reference included the target deficit figure that he had to reverse engineer his numbers to...it's all there on the govt site. WE paid millions to have him do an A=O+L arithmetic, where L was locked in at $80bn and owners equity was devalued to suit accordingly.... that's right he simply wrote off 20% of QLD's assets values, then used excerpts out of context from Standard and Poor's own AAA+ ratings report for the state.
> 
> I have so little regard for the debt figure asserted I would rather just ignore it as just another Courier Mail piece of fluff.




So what do you maintain the true figure to be?


----------



## sptrawler (22 April 2015)

WOW, Labor has announced it will cut tax breaks for super and negative gearing.

Shame they didn't do it when in office, now they are trying to pre empt a coalition move.

Jeez they are useless.


----------



## drsmith (23 April 2015)

Progressivity is superannuation tax rates during the accumulation phase would be more simply managed through an individual's fund balance than through an individual's income.

As for Labor, they could start by allowing the savings they took to the last election through the Senate.


----------



## noco (24 April 2015)

More rhetoric from the Green/Labor coalition seeking popularity...tax the rich and higher taxes for companies which will raise very little over 10 years.
It all sounds like music to the ears of the middle income earners and pensioners..
Our democratic socialists comrades are a tricky lot. 

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/labor_is_cheating_on_taxes/


----------



## luutzu (25 April 2015)

noco said:


> More rhetoric from the Green/Labor coalition seeking popularity...tax the rich and higher taxes for companies which will raise very little over 10 years.
> It all sounds like music to the ears of the middle income earners and pensioners..
> Our democratic socialists comrades are a tricky lot.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/labor_is_cheating_on_taxes/




How would taxing the rich and corporations raise little?

I know there are less of them but together the top 10% and the top 1000 companies in Australia probably own just about all of it - give or take Tasmania.

But seriously, as if that's going to happen. Even if the leadership have the intent, which they don't, it's not going to happen.

When you want to take people's money, you go after soft targets - the poor and the defenseless. You definitely do not want to go after people with money to fund your opponent in the next election, definitely not corporations who could "consult" you for a handsome fee after your sting at public service. 
And it's not everyday you get to be paid $100sK for a one hour speech, or millions for a story about your life that nobody reads.

The poor aren't going to pay for those are they?

But of course you can't just tax the poor directly and openly - they're quite clever and have this thing about fairness and fair go and stuff. So you, you know, make a show of going after the big ends of town... and when people feel the big boys got a spanking too, then it's ripe to  tell them to tighten their belts and cough up their fair share for a fair go.


I'm being silly? 

Let see... if you run a country, and a country's only source of income is through its tax collectors, and you are serious about collecting taxes, does it make sense to cut funding to your tax office? Well most government, ours included, do just that. Genius.


----------



## noco (25 April 2015)

luutzu said:


> How would taxing the rich and corporations raise little?
> 
> I know there are less of them but together the top 10% and the top 1000 companies in Australia probably own just about all of it - give or take Tasmania.
> 
> ...




Did you read the link?

*

Labor is pretending that just smashing the nasty rich will fix the massive and growing debt it left us.

Small problem. Labor’s planned superannuation grab will raise $1.4 billion a year, if it actually works. Labor’s planned multinationals tax will raise a further $500 million a year. So that’s just $1.9 billion a year when the deficits are running at $40 billion a year. *


----------



## noco (27 April 2015)

Henry Argus is spot on with his assessment of the Green/Labor socialist left thought bubble and con job on superannuation.
I am sure it will go down like a lead balloon on the middle class..




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...hit_the_middle_class_and_drive_some_onto_the/


----------



## sptrawler (27 April 2015)

noco said:


> Henry Argus is spot on with his assessment of the Green/Labor socialist left thought bubble and con job on superannuation.
> I am sure it will go down like a lead balloon on the middle class..
> 
> 
> ...




That assessment is exactly what will happen, just another dumb Labor idea.

It really shows they still have no idea.


----------



## dutchie (27 April 2015)

noco said:


> So that’s just $1.9 billion a year when the deficits are running at $40 billion a year.




For the Labor party that's close enough. Job done.


----------



## noco (9 May 2015)

The Palaszczuk Labor left wing socialist government have been in office for 100 days and are already going from one disaster to the next.
Palaszczuk keeps saying she will creates jobs and her troops are destroying all the possibilities....Unemployment on the rise....more debt on the rise.....more public servants ....more CFMEU influence.

Queensland Labor will be Tony Abbott's best asset in the 2016 Federal election. 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...g-mining-attacks/story-fntuy59x-1227347608869


----------



## noco (9 May 2015)

noco said:


> The Palaszczuk Labor left wing socialist government have been in office for 100 days and are already going from one disaster to the next.
> Palaszczuk keeps saying she will creates jobs and her troops are destroying all the possibilities....Unemployment on the rise....more debt on the rise.....more public servants ....more CFMEU influence.
> 
> Queensland Labor will be Tony Abbott's best asset in the 2016 Federal election.
> ...




*More frontline jobs are at threat under the Palaszczuk-Gordon Government.
The LGAQ is today warning 1500 frontline jobs are at threat because of State Government moves to unionise councils.
This follows the sacking of 65 frontline health workers yesterday. It comes just hours after Energy Minister Mark Bailey told parliament – “I regard all of our staff in the public sector as frontline staff. We will defend them.”

The only job the Palaszczuk-Gordon government has saved this week, is Billy Gordon’s, the Member for Cook.
Queensland’s unemployment rate is 0.5% above the national average, as Labor’s infrastructure freeze continues.

*


----------



## sydboy007 (10 May 2015)

noco said:


> Did you read the link?
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Back in April Hockey stated "There is no doubt that there would be an increase in overall revenue if the GST were to applied right across the board to the delivery of information and licensing and so on over the internet ... it could represent billions,"

Now to raise billions of revenue you would have to have tens of billions in movie downloads and other software based spending.  Do you think his claims are believable?

What about Labor's plan to cut down on multinational tax avoidance?  The PBO has estimated the proposed changes would net over $7B over the next 10 years.  Why is the Abott Govt so against them?

Or what about Hockey's claim back in Jan that people work half the year to pay income tax 'When Australians spend the first six months of the year working for the Government with tax rates nearly 50 cents in the dollar, it is a disincentive."  It's quite remarkable that the treasure has no understanding of the various marginal tax rates, especially since none of them is over 50%.  Is it incompetence or a willingness to lie to the public?

Maybe we should add in the lie from health Minister Susan in saving $73m a year from PBS funded paracetamol which she claims can be bought from the local supermarket for just $2.  Just a shame that around 85% of the prescriptions for paracetamol for people in chronic pain from osteoarthritis. The high dose, slow release paracetamol formulation they are prescribed can't be bought from a supermarket for $2.  How does a health minister get it so wrong?  Incompetence or a willingness to lie?

Back to the treasure and his wild claims about the removal of negative gearing pushing up rents, when he should know that over the period when negative gearing was abolished only Sydney and Perth experienced strong growth in real rental prices.  Real rents in Adelaide and Brisbane fell considerably over the period, whilst Melbourne experienced low, or at times no, real growth in rents.  Incompetence, or the fact he has a primary residence and 2 IPs in the family?

Do you remember when Tony Abbott promised all infrastructure projects over $100M would go through a CBA then immediately broke it, multiple times?  Have you forgot "people do have a right be a bigot" Brandis, and his inability to explain a reasonably simple concept called metadata, which was central to data retention laws he was trying to force through parliament?

Strange how none of these liberal failings is particularly important to you.


----------



## Tisme (10 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Strange how none of these liberal failings is particularly important to you.




I must admit I find it strange how Wayne Swan was responsible for the falling commodity prices, yet the other day Hockey spoke out on TV stating no govt can control the price of commodities as he tried to explain the huge blackhole the present govt has inflicted on our fair nation.

Similarly I find it odd that Labor created a mess, but Liberal are creating order while replicating the same ill considered tactics to tackle an economy in reverse. Reminds me of George Bush ignoring income in favour of spend, which ultimately resulted in the global meltdown that Labor created.


----------



## noco (10 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Back in April Hockey stated "There is no doubt that there would be an increase in overall revenue if the GST were to applied right across the board to the delivery of information and licensing and so on over the internet ... it could represent billions,"
> 
> Now to raise billions of revenue you would have to have tens of billions in movie downloads and other software based spending.  Do you think his claims are believable?
> 
> ...




The Green/Labor left wing socialists failings 2007/2013 was 100 times worse with their hare brain schemes and wasted money and now the current government has the problem of paying back the debt and deficit which your fearless leader, the weak, Bill Shorten who is doing his best to obstruct any savings the government is trying to make including $5 billion which Labor included in their 2013 budget..When Abbott was in opposition, he tried to stop Labor from  spending so much even after the GFC ...Now Shorten is the opposition, he is trying to stop Abbott from the savings Abbott is trying to make to get us back in the black...What a little grub he turned out to be.

The worlds greatest treasurer said in 2013 there would be a surplus.....he then told us "sorry the deficit will be $18 billion which turned out to be $48 billion."...Penny "Wrong" as finance minister was some $123 billion out in her estimates during her term.

Strange how the rusted on Laborites failings are not important to you....But of course we must talk about Labor's failings.

Queensland is just as bad...Palaszczuk still has not told us how she will pay back $80 billion racked up by Beattie and Bligh during the mining boom even after Beattie sold off $18 billion in assets including the Golden Casket for $599 million...The Golden Casket paid for the new hospitals in Queensland...Good management??????...I don't think so.  Plaszczuk has a team of "L" PLATERS controlled by the CFMEU

The country would be a lot worse off now if the Federal Labor had been re-elected....Labor has a history of bad financial management.

So come on sydboy, have a think about it all.


----------



## noco (10 May 2015)

Here is the fundamental difference on how three countries handled the GFC.

As I have stated before, I am certain Howard and Costello would have done twice as much with half the money Labor wasted.

Similarly, fiscal responsibility was demonstrated by the UK and Germany as the link has pointed out.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ments/cameron_vs_rudd_a_battle_over_stimulus/


----------



## banco (10 May 2015)

noco said:


> Here is the fundamental difference on how three countries handled the GFC.
> 
> As I have stated before, I am certain Howard and Costello would have done twice as much with half the money Labor wasted.
> 
> ...




What did unemployment peak at in the UK post-GFC noco?


----------



## noco (10 May 2015)

banco said:


> What did unemployment peak at in the UK post-GFC noco?




I have no idea...care to give me some statistics?

It is OK...a quick google search revealed what we are looking for in the UK.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate

*Actual 	Previous 	Highest 	Lowest 	Dates 	Unit 	Frequency 	
	5.60 	5.70 	12.00 	3.40 	1971 - 2015 	percent 	Monthly 	
In the United Kingdom, the unemployment rate measures the number of people actively looking for a job as a percentage of the labour force. This page provides - United Kingdom Unemployment Rate - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. Content for - United Kingdom Unemployment Rate - was last refreshed on Sunday, May 10, 2015.

Calendar 	GMT 	Reference 	Actual 	Previous 	Consensus 	Forecast (i)
2015-02-18 	09:30 AM 	Dec 	5.7% 	5.8% 	5.8% 	5.8%
2015-03-18 	09:30 AM 	Jan 	5.7% 	5.7% 	5.6% 	5.7%
2015-04-17 	09:30 AM 	Feb 	5.6% 	5.7% 	5.6% 	5.7%
2015-05-13 	09:30 AM 	Mar 		5.6% 	5.5% 	5.6%
2015-06-17 	09:30 AM 	Apr 				5.6%
2015-07-15 	09:30 AM 	May 				5.5%


UK Unemployment Rate Lowest Since 2008

British jobless rate decreased to 5.6 percent in the three months to February from 5.7 percent in the previous period. Employment increased at its fastest pace in nearly a year while pay growth rose well above inflation.
*

That high of 12% was in 2008 and probably during Labor's reign...Without further search I am not sure which party was in power in 2008.


----------



## noco (10 May 2015)

noco said:


> I have no idea...care to give me some statistics?
> 
> It is OK...a quick google search revealed what we are looking for in the UK.
> 
> ...




Well, I'll be damned......It was Gordon Brown's Labor party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> What about Labor's plan to cut down on multinational tax avoidance?  The PBO has estimated the proposed changes would net over $7B over the next 10 years.  Why is the Abott Govt so against them?
> 
> .




Why didn't they do something about it, when they were in office? 

It was only a year and a half ago, the economy was falling rapidly, why didn't they do it?


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> I must admit I find it strange how Wayne Swan was responsible for the falling commodity prices, yet the other day Hockey spoke out on TV stating no govt can control the price of commodities as he tried to explain the huge blackhole the present govt has inflicted on our fair nation.
> 
> Similarly I find it odd that Labor created a mess, but Liberal are creating order while replicating the same ill considered tactics to tackle an economy in reverse. Reminds me of George Bush ignoring income in favour of spend, which ultimately resulted in the global meltdown that Labor created.




I must admit I find it strange, that the media say, resources boom lasted 10 years.
Then they say, Howard and Costello blew it? when Labor were in office for 6 of those 10 years.

Just because Abbott and Hockey, didn't get budget cuts through, doesn't mean we don't need the cuts.

Even Michael Pascoe,wrote an article highlighting the fact, the pension is going up faster than the average wage.

Might be great if your a pensioner, not so great if you pay tax, or save to pay your own way.

Won't be long before those who own their home, on an indexed government pension, are far better off than those who self fund.IMO
That is of course, unless you were fortunate enough, to obtain a public service pension.


----------



## sydboy007 (11 May 2015)

noco said:


> Here is the fundamental difference on how three countries handled the GFC.
> 
> As I have stated before, I am certain Howard and Costello would have done twice as much with half the money Labor wasted.
> 
> ...




Considering the IMF has 2 of the most profligate periods of Federal Govt spending under the Howard and Costello leadership, it's quite possible they'd have spent far more than Labor.  maybe doubled the baby bonus perhaps?

Do you remember that the 6-9 months proceeding the big hit from the GFC that the mining sector were retrenching staff so fast?  Spending was going down.  

If labors spending was so bad, then you also have to castigate Howard and Costello for the reduction in the tapering rate to allow millionaire part pensioners?  If it was such a good policy, costing $1B a year, why is the Abbott Govt reversing the policy?

The fact is that much of the structural harm to the budget was done by Howard and Costello.  Much easier to hide 'spending" when it's a tax expenditure, but a billion dollar tax expenditure has as much impact to the bottom line as a billion in spending. though I'd argue that in many ways tax expenditures are far more distorting to the economy.

So if Abbott and Hockey are serious about reducing the budget deficit, then they have to do what Labor did, in 2 of their last 3 years in office, and keep real spending growth negative.  No Liberal Govt has ever achieved this.  Labor has 5 times.

The current Govt also has to start fixing a lot of the damage that 7 years of tax cuts has done to revenue, along with so much of the wasteful spending.  If we're facing financial disaster how is spending $250M on school chaplains helping?  The current massive deficit is as much a revenue as a spending problem.


----------



## noco (11 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Considering the IMF has 2 of the most profligate periods of Federal Govt spending under the Howard and Costello leadership, it's quite possible they'd have spent far more than Labor.  maybe doubled the baby bonus perhaps?
> 
> Do you remember that the 6-9 months proceeding the big hit from the GFC that the mining sector were retrenching staff so fast?  Spending was going down.
> 
> ...




Do you remember, Howard and Costello left Labor $22 billion in the bank and no debt.....unemployment at 4%.

How in the hell could you possibly blame Howard and Costello for the mess Labor left behind.

My gawd, your memory has failed *YOU* so badly.


----------



## Tisme (11 May 2015)

noco said:


> Do you remember, Howard and Costello left Labor $22 billion in the bank and no debt.....unemployment at 4%.
> 
> .




That's not true. Cash at bank might have been there, but it was borrowed money. Taking in those borrowings, the net debt was quite large, but obscurated in a 'roses in the attic' account. The Finance Dept website has the archive balance sheets showing the actual position at the time (well it used to ). 

The wizard management of paying down debt was to sell $70+bn of our own assets; much of it to ourselves (double mortgaging effectively that shuffled debt). 40% of the debt that was paid down, was carryover from the Fraser years (Howard treasurer)....  ouch that's gotta hurt the true believers.


----------



## noco (11 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> That's not true. Cash at bank might have been there, but it was borrowed money. Taking in those borrowings, the net debt was quite large, but obscurated in a 'roses in the attic' account. The Finance Dept website has the archive balance sheets showing the actual position at the time (well it used to ).
> 
> The wizard management of paying down debt was to sell $70+bn of our own assets; much of it to ourselves (double mortgaging effectively that shuffled debt). 40% of the debt that was paid down, was carryover from the Fraser years (Howard treasurer)....  ouch that's gotta hurt the true believers.




 And you have a link to back up your statement.


----------



## trainspotter (11 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> That's not true. Cash at bank might have been there, but it was borrowed money. Taking in those borrowings, the net debt was quite large, but obscurated in a 'roses in the attic' account. The Finance Dept website has the archive balance sheets showing the actual position at the time (well it used to ).
> 
> The wizard management of paying down debt was to sell $70+bn of our own assets; much of it to ourselves (double mortgaging effectively that shuffled debt). 40% of the debt that was paid down, was carryover from the Fraser years (Howard treasurer)....  ouch that's gotta hurt the true believers.




Errrmmmm I know you are fishing but the bait is a bit smelly.



> ECONOMIST and former economic adviser to the Prime Minister Stephen Koukoulas - known as The Kouk - has reached the end of his tether.
> 
> "I'm sick of the misinformation campaign being run by the Liberal Party and sections of the media about the Australian economy. The fact is Australia's net debt is dramatically lower than the net debt levels for every single major advanced economy."
> 
> ...




Oooopsies at the train station.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ne-crucial-point/story-fnbkvnk7-1226613585777

P.S. No such word as obscurated. It is obscured or obscuration 

What the hell??? The ABC facts check can't be wrong now can it??



> Of the total Commonwealth securities on issue, that $19.7 billion increase on the Coalition's watch represents 6 per cent. Mr Hockey can argue that most of the remainder is Labor's legacy. However, when Labor took office in 2007, it inherited $59 billion in Commonwealth securities from the Howard government.
> 
> *This means of the current securities on issue of $329 billion, Labor budgetary measures are responsible for $246 billion, or 75 per cent.*




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-12/joe-hockey-one-billion-a-month-interest-fact-check/5478480


----------



## sydboy007 (11 May 2015)

noco said:


> And you have a link to back up your statement.




http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/2095-more-facts-behind-the-howard-governments-debt-elimination



> The $96 billion “Labor debt” inherited by the Howard Government in 1996 comprised $39.9 billion of Fraser Government debt that carried through the Hawke/Keating period meaning that the true level of Labor debt in 1996 was $56 billion.  To pay that $56 billion off, the Howard Government sold almost $72 billion of Government assets meaning the move to negative net debt was not really due to any miraculous and bold fiscal settings, but owed everything to a series of asset sales.


----------



## sydboy007 (11 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I must admit I find it strange, that the media say, resources boom lasted 10 years.
> Then they say, Howard and Costello blew it? when Labor were in office for 6 of those 10 years.
> 
> Just because Abbott and Hockey, didn't get budget cuts through, doesn't mean we don't need the cuts.
> ...




have a read of the below

It helps to explain how Howard resided over the most profitable - in taxation terms - of the boom

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/05/howard-also-to-blame-for-budgets-ills/







> Nominal GDP is the dollar value of what’s produced and earned across the economy and is also the measure that drives federal taxation revenue. Due in part to the inexorable rise in the terms-of-trade, the Howard Government experienced ever growing nominal GDP growth as commodity prices surged, whereby it reaped the benefits of growing personal and company taxes, not to mention increased capital gains taxes as asset markets boomed. By comparison, the Rudd/Gillard Governments experienced two episodes where nominal GDP collapsed – both on account of falling commodity prices.




Howard also had the benefit of household debt doubling during his term, while Labor saw private debt fall slightly.  Unless you can import a lot of demand it's not possible for both the private and public sectors to both increase savings.


----------



## trainspotter (11 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/2095-more-facts-behind-the-howard-governments-debt-elimination




Irrespective. 75% of the debt we have is from Labor. FACT. No excuses. No weasel words. FACT.

Howard sold assets, no one is denying that. To go from 45 billion in the black to 247 billion in the red is a record of monumental gross stupidity of a fiscal kind. All this inside 4 years. YEP ... well done RUDD/GILLARD/RUDD and the useless Labor Party.


----------



## Tisme (11 May 2015)

noco said:


> And you have a link to back up your statement.




I'm not a wet nurse Noco. You are just as able as the next person to fish around the finance dept's site for the annual reports. I would have thought you would be the first person to check out what the true situation was.


----------



## noco (11 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm not a wet nurse Noco. You are just as able as the next person to fish around the finance dept's site for the annual reports. I would have thought you would be the first person to check out what the true situation was.




Anyone who makes silly statements on ASF generally  don't have a  back up...If.you make a statement, it is up to you to back it up.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> have a read of the below
> 
> It helps to explain how Howard resided over the most profitable - in taxation terms - of the boom
> 
> ...




So with some reasoning, you are saying the Labor Government, over 6 years managed the falling tax base and TOT well?

They actually did very little to change the tax base.
Negative gearing, Superannuation, middle class welfare, general welfare payments were a problem when they were in office.
The Henry report gave many suggested changes, what did they do?

Well they passed the Greens agenda, the carbon tax, which added another nail to a struggling manufacturing sector.

They introduced the resource rent tax on super profits of miners, two years later, most are belly up.

So maybe you can tell me, what long term tax reform was introduced to stem the loss of tax reciepts?

Absolutely none.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 May 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Irrespective. 75% of the debt we have is from Labor. FACT. No excuses. No weasel words. FACT.
> 
> Howard sold assets




Selling assets and incurring debt is substantially the same thing in terms of the overall outcome.

How much assets did Howard sell? What income would they be producing today?

I don't know the answer to that question, but it's impossible to fairly compare Labor versus Liberal without such information.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2015)

Smurf1976 said:


> Selling assets and incurring debt is substantially the same thing in terms of the overall outcome.
> 
> How much assets did Howard sell? What income would they be producing today?
> 
> I don't know the answer to that question, but it's impossible to fairly compare Labor versus Liberal without such information.




It is impossible to compare the value of an asset, and the value of keeping that asset.

It is all relative, to how much you need the money, to fund something else, as opposed to the future value or income.

If it was easy to just keep assets, non of us would sell our houses, or blue chip shares.

However to think you can just keep racking up debt, because you don't want to sell assets, doesn't seem to go down well either.

That is unless you just keep racking up debt, until your thrown out of office.

Then criticise the others, who pick up the debt, and have to sort it out.

It's a bit like Telstra, the Government sold it and the share price still isn't back to the sell price.

If I sold shares 10 years ago, for $7.40 to pay off the house and they were $6 today, I would be wrapped.
Who gives a rats about the lost dividend, the interest savings on the house loan would cover that.
Also I'm still up 20% on my sell price.

It isn't simple.

You've also have to factor in the savings from not running the company, but taxing the wages and profits anyway.


----------



## Tisme (12 May 2015)

noco said:


> Anyone who makes silly statements on ASF generally  don't have a  back up...If.you make a statement, it is up to you to back it up.




Yes well you are your own worst critic then, aren't you.


----------



## Tisme (12 May 2015)

Smurf1976 said:


> Selling assets and incurring debt is substantially the same thing in terms of the overall outcome.
> 
> How much assets did Howard sell? What income would they be producing today?
> 
> I don't know the answer to that question, but it's impossible to fairly compare Labor versus Liberal without such information.




Especially income producing asset. Of course Telstra was in its dying stages when sold off, so the Libs bolstered it (and shareholder dividend) by giving it monopoly status and continues to do so at the expense of consumers, the NBN and competition.


----------



## Tisme (12 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It is impossible to compare the value of an asset, and the value of keeping that asset.
> 
> .





Howard, subsequent LNP regimes and even some Lab govts would argue otherwise.


----------



## sydboy007 (12 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> So with some reasoning, you are saying the Labor Government, over 6 years managed the falling tax base and TOT well?
> 
> They actually did very little to change the tax base.
> Negative gearing, Superannuation, middle class welfare, general welfare payments were a problem when they were in office.
> ...




The complaints you make about Labor in opposition currently stand for how the LNP behaved when Labor was in Govt, or are you arguing that Abbott was all about constructive opposition?

Tax reform is very hard to achieve when the opposition is a friend to everyone "losing" out to reform.

Have you forgot how Abbott behaved when Gillard wanted to make sensible reforms to car FBT?  Surely it's sensible policy to only allow people to claim car expenses used for work purposes, rather than the system Abbott brought back that allows all expenses to be claimed?

I'm not denying that Labor were at times not as focused as they should have been, but they don't hold all the blame for where we are.  The budget rot was started by Howard and Costello, the halving of CGT directly lead to the housing boom and near doubling of household debt.  Rudd should never have agreed to the last lot of tax cuts during the 07 election.  Those $$$ would certainly come in handy for the budget now.  But then Howard was madly cutting taxes and increasing spending at a time when the RBA was rising interest rates.  If Howard had behaved more responsibly and help the RBA to limit the interest rate rises, how many tens of billions would the private sector have saved?  Is it fair to ignore that very real expense to the economy?

If Labor had been lucky enough to have had the same revenue coming in as Howard they'd have run the same kind of surpluses.  They kept spending lower than Howards and in their final years were actually keeping real spending growth pretty much in negative terms.  Howards spending growth made the Fraser years look controlled.

The Abbott Govt is facing exactly the same crappy set of circumstances as Labor, and I find it so exquisitely funny when Costello gives the current Govt a serve via his newspaper blogs when he's unwilling to acknowledge the different circumstances we find ourselves in.

How could Labor have made changes to super taxes when Abbott had promised no changes while in opposition?  Abbott even backtracked on adding a 15% tax on around 16000 super pensioners earning over 100K a year.  Seriously, he's sticking up for people who'd be in the top 5% of income earners, while at the same time kicking the poorest millions who get no benefit from super as the LISC is canned.  Do you honestly think Labor could have constructively worked with Abbott, the guy who lied in parliament about a pensioner's electricity bill doubling due to the carbon tax, to have come up with meaningful reform?


----------



## trainspotter (12 May 2015)

Smurf1976 said:


> Selling assets and incurring debt is substantially the same thing in terms of the overall outcome.
> 
> How much assets did Howard sell? What income would they be producing today?
> 
> I don't know the answer to that question, but it's impossible to fairly compare Labor versus Liberal without such information.




How is selling an asset and incurring debt the same thing? I believe the Howard Government sold almost $72 billion of Government assets to pay off a debt of 96 billion. By June 2007, Australia had net financial assets (negative debt) of $29 billion. So 24 billion (paid off debt) + 29 billion (negative debt) = 53 billion in the black. Compared to Labor 247 billion in the RED when they got dethroned. A tidy sum of 300 billion spent in 4 years. Does this not seem illogical in a fiscal sense to you at all?

Here is the internet address of the sale of the assets if you are truly interested in prolonging this debate:- http://www.finance.gov.au/property/asset-sales/past-sales.html


----------



## trainspotter (12 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> If Labor had been lucky enough to have had the same revenue coming in as Howard they'd have run the same kind of surpluses.  They kept spending lower than Howards and in their final years *were actually keeping real spending growth pretty much in negative terms*.  Howards spending growth made the Fraser years look controlled.
> 
> The Abbott Govt is facing exactly the same crappy set of circumstances as Labor, and I find it so exquisitely funny when Costello gives the current Govt a serve via his newspaper blogs when he's unwilling to acknowledge the different circumstances we find ourselves in.




Oh really?



> THE era of Kevin, interrupted by the Julia interlude, has been a roller-coaster ride. Having promised Howard-lite and fiscal conservatism, the excuse of the global financial crisis unleashed a period of rapid growth in government spending, successive budget deficits and mounting public debt under Kevin Rudd's guidance.
> 
> Now, with Rudd's return, Labor has launched a charm offensive that seeks to whitewash the past: it is as if aliens from Mars, fortunately departed, had been in charge. But the damage of that era cannot be wiped out so easily.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ste-and-spending/story-fn59niix-1226690463570

And what about this then?



> Across all the years since the last recession, the expenditure to GDP average has been 24.75. The average across the *Howard years was 24.15*, and over the *Rudd/Gillard years it averaged 25.15*.




http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2014/4/25/economy/truth-behind-hockeys-magic-number

Yep you are right about the income stream that Howard/Costello had that the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Party did not. That is a given. So good governance would have dictated that they should have spent LESS rather than on school halls, $900 x 3 to everybody with kids, Pink Batts ad infinitum. Here is a link to a very interesting book about what the money was actually spent on.

http://lpa.webcontent.s3.amazonaws.com/Web assets/The Little Book of Big Labor Waste.pdf

So if the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Party saved us from the GFC with all this spending imagine how good it would be if we did not have this debt right now?



> TREASURY has been forced to withdraw a budget graph that *overstated the effects on growth *of fiscal stimulus spending across the G20 after a senior academic raised questions about its accuracy.
> 
> The original Treasury graph on stimulus spending, published in Budget Paper 1, used only 11 of 19 G20 countries and backed claims that the greater the level of stimulus spending, the greater the boost to growth above International Monetary Fund predictions. But yesterday the Institute of Public Affairs, of which Professor Davidson is a member, was also taking issue with the OECD comparison. The IPA said Treasury had omitted Greece, Hungary, Iceland and Ireland, which cut spending last year.
> 
> *When they were included, the slope on the graph again went back to being statistically insignificant.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...xaggerated-graph/story-e6frg6nf-1225875251275

Have a look at this baby GOOOOOOOOOOOO http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

Now imagine if it was in reverse and we were obtaining INTEREST on the money we had in the bank??


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> The complaints you make about Labor in opposition currently stand for how the LNP behaved when Labor was in Govt, or are you arguing that Abbott was all about constructive opposition?
> 
> Tax reform is very hard to achieve when the opposition is a friend to everyone "losing" out to reform.
> 
> ...




I agree with your sentiments, the Abbott Government has performed badly, especially when dealing with an unfriendly Senate.
Scott Morrison has been the only Abbott minister, to gain traction with his portfolio, which does indicate a definite lack of ability from the rest.
One could argue Julie Bishop has performed well, but her portfolio doesn't entail selling bad news to voters.
Turnbull has done o.k with the NBN, but he can't be judged, until there is a much larger roll out of the NBN.IMO

The only thing saving the LNP at the moment, is the terrible image Shorten is presenting. IMO he is coming across as a hypocrite and appears to portray conflicting views.

I would say he is doing exactly as Abbott was doing in opposition, however for some reason, he doesn't seem to be pulling it off as well as Abbott did.


----------



## noco (14 May 2015)

Ms. Palaszczuk must have rocks in her head...She has gone on about creating jobs in Queensland with no infrastructure plan, no plan to pay off the $80 billion racked up by Beattie and Bligh  and then refusing money from the Feds....Queensland is going down the gurglar real fast...she will be a one term or half a term government and will leave another mess for the LNP to clean up.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...w-interest-loans/story-fntuy59x-1227354040333


----------



## sydboy007 (14 May 2015)

noco said:


> Ms. Palaszczuk must have rocks in her head...She has gone on about creating jobs in Queensland with no infrastructure plan, no plan to pay off the $80 billion racked up by Beattie and Bligh  and then refusing money from the Feds....Queensland is going down the gurglar real fast...she will be a one term or half a term government and will leave another mess for the LNP to clean up.
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...w-interest-loans/story-fntuy59x-1227354040333




maybe she should get Abbott to subsidise Adani so they can build the biggest white elephant of a coal mine.  Perpetual agreement to meet the $100 a tonne break even point with subsidies.

Oh wait, that was the previous LNP way.  Fortunately saner heads prevailed.

Maybe throw in some Barnet style royalty forgiveness to small miners to keep the excess supply in play for longer, reducing the income all of Australia receives in the process.  Twiggy has some pur dead brilliant ideas on these kind of schemes.

Riddle me this Noco.  Why would Abbot want to "invest" in infrastructure that loses 55c in the $, but refuses to invest in infrastructure that generates a 20% return?


----------



## noco (14 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> maybe she should get Abbott to subsidise Adani so they can build the biggest white elephant of a coal mine.  Perpetual agreement to meet the $100 a tonne break even point with subsidies.
> 
> Oh wait, that was the previous LNP way.  Fortunately saner heads prevailed.
> 
> ...




 So answer mew this one....where are the jobs coming from in Queensland?


----------



## sydboy007 (14 May 2015)

noco said:


> So answer mew this one....where are the jobs coming from in Queensland?




Possibly tourism, now that the falling AUD has turned tourism from a a net loss to the economy to a mild surplus over the last 2 years.

The falling AUD may also increase the number of students at Uni and TAFEs getting doggy certifications.

Apart from that, without the willingness to borrow to invest in infrastructure that is self liquidating ie generates a real economic return, i don't see many jobs coming.  That is not a QLD only issue.  Where are the jobs going to come from in WA.  Where does SA and VIC get skilled jobs to replace the closing care industry?  How does NT replaces the jobs lost from the LNG construction boom?  I bet you some in the LNP would be starting to regret their forcing the car industry to close now that the AUD would make them competitive again.

So now that I've answered you question, will you offer me the courtesy to answer mine?

Why is Abbott willing to fund a road tunnel that loses 55c in the $, but refuses to invest in a rail project that generates a 20% return?


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2015)

"Wild Bill, Shoot from the hip Shorten". 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-14/bill-shorten-proposes-5pc-tax-cut-for-small-business/6471006

Nothing changes, both sides are as bad as each other.

Ask Shorten ,why he didn't cut the tax rate when in office, if it's so important.
Then tell him we were elected, we will adopt your suggested cut, if you support budget savings proposed.
All we have is politicians trying to wrestle the agenda, absolute dicks.

Australia's future, is at the mercy of the media and self centred politicians, the rest of us are collateral damage.IMO

Bloody sad situation.


----------



## noco (14 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Possibly tourism, now that the falling AUD has turned tourism from a a net loss to the economy to a mild surplus over the last 2 years.
> 
> The falling AUD may also increase the number of students at Uni and TAFEs getting doggy certifications.
> 
> ...





*POSSIBLY* tourism..?????....The Aussie dollar is going up against a weak USA dollar...See today's news.
My topic of conversation was about Queensland who have a debt problem of $80 billion and you are saying Palazczuk should borrow more money......She has not told us yet how she intends to pay back the Beattie/ Bligh debt...I am a Queenslander and do not have a lot of interest in what other states do..

Palaszczuk has no infrastructure plan and will not have one for 12 months, so how can you create jobs if you don't have a plan.....Labor sat on their hands for 3 years and now they been caught out with their pants down around their ankles.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2015)

noco said:


> *POSSIBLY* tourism..?????....The Aussie dollar is going up against a weak USA dollar...See today's news.
> My topic of conversation was about Queensland who have a debt problem of $80 billion and you are saying Palazczuk should borrow more money......She has not told us yet how she intends to pay back the Beattie/ Bligh debt...I am a Queenslander and do not have a lot of interest in what other states do..
> 
> Palaszczuk has no infrastructure plan and will not have one for 12 months, so how can you create jobs if you don't have a plan.....Labor sat on their hands for 3 years and now they been caught out with their pants down around their ankles.




I agree with noco, tourism is never going to be a viable National income of any relevance, for Australia.
We are too distant for affluent Countries, and unfortunately our points of interest are spread far afield.

We attract 8million/annum, tourists, to the whole continent.

Venice attracts 20million/annum, to a place the size of Melbourne CBD. 
They can talk about the relevance of tourism to their GDP, we really can't.IMO


----------



## sydboy007 (15 May 2015)

noco said:


> *POSSIBLY* tourism..?????....The Aussie dollar is going up against a weak USA dollar...See today's news.
> My topic of conversation was about Queensland who have a debt problem of $80 billion and you are saying Palazczuk should borrow more money......She has not told us yet how she intends to pay back the Beattie/ Bligh debt...I am a Queenslander and do not have a lot of interest in what other states do..
> 
> Palaszczuk has no infrastructure plan and will not have one for 12 months, so how can you create jobs if you don't have a plan.....Labor sat on their hands for 3 years and now they been caught out with their pants down around their ankles.




SO basically you support Abbott in his malinvestment of public funds into infrastructure that doesn't generate an economic return, further supporting him in his withholding of funds for investments that do generate an economic return.  If you could explain how that's better than Palazczuk I'm all ears.

You then complain that the QLD Govt is not rushing to invest scarce public funds until it can determine what projects stack up economically.

It wouldn't surprise me if you are all for the new Abbott proposal for public funding in the galilei basin to help the uneconomic development of coal reserves.

So what investments do you propose the QLD should engage in?  What criteria would you use to judge that they are worthy of public funds?

Maybe the QLD Govt should follow the LNP in WA and come up with fanciful budget forecasts of massive levels of investment and rocketing employment growth?  Somehow, by 2018 business investment is expected to remain at an astounding $45.7 billion. Gorgon, Wheatstone, Roy Hill, Sino Iron and all of the iron ore mines will be finished. RIO and BHP will still be costing out and the juniors all dead. But somehow and some way business investment is going to remain at outright boom levels in a permanently high plateau. 

There's also the interesting fact that the WA Govt is forecasting I/O prices over 10% lower than Hockey, along with over 130M tonnes less exported by 2018/19 as well.  What do they know that the Feds don't, or is it that Hockey needs the overly optimistic BREE forecasts to sticky tape his budget together?  Could Barnett be accepting the death of FMG?

Why is it you only ever criticise Labor Govts.


----------



## sydboy007 (15 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with noco, tourism is never going to be a viable National income of any relevance, for Australia.
> We are too distant for affluent Countries, and unfortunately our points of interest are spread far afield.
> 
> We attract 8million/annum, tourists, to the whole continent.
> ...




Last september we hit 77000 Chinese tourists alone.  Moreover, in the year to September 2014, tourism arrivals from China hit a record 801,500, with their share of total tourists also a record 11.8%. In fact, the total number of tourist arrivals from China has more than doubled since the beginning of 2010.  Chinese tourists are also some of the biggest spenders.

Since the end of 2013 when the AUD started falling the number of tourists arriving into Australia has really taken off.  Can it replace the mining CAPEX boom.  Definitely not, but for QLD and SYD / MEL it will be a reasonable cushioning for the fall that's coming.  The good thing with tourism is it is at least fairly labour intensive.  Low paying, but at least keeps people employed.

With the RBA choice to believe the forever resource boom, allowing the AUD to reach extreme overvaluation and decimate the tradeables sector, it's going to be a long slog forward for the country.  It will take a decent period of a low AUD to encourage import competing industries to invest, even longer to get any form of manufacturing exporters back here.

It's quite likely we will be importing cars at higher cost with a low AUD than if we'd provided further support to the car industry.  

I'm taking the brief reprieve of the higher AUD to get more funds off shore.  The oncoming recession is one we didn't need to have, at least not as bad as it's going to be, but that's the price we pay for a lost decade of poor policies from both sides of the fence.

It's easy to blame Labor, but the fiscal rot started with the profligate spending of the Howard years and the lack of political leadership means any reforms will not be willingly undertaken.  When we're facing capital flight will be when we start to make very costly and community destroying changes.  It needn't be this way, but then we have a media more concerned about the Depp Dogs than it is about the oncoming economic crash, and I have little sympathy for us.  We get the Govt we deserve.


----------



## wayneL (15 May 2015)

So Syd, does Shorten's budget reply address any of these issues? Or make them a whole lot worse?


----------



## sydboy007 (15 May 2015)

wayneL said:


> So Syd, does Shorten's budget reply address any of these issues? Or make them a whole lot worse?




haven't diggested everything that Shorten said.  Not sure how we fund a further drop in corporate taxation.  I do like the idea of increased funding for STEMS degrees as it's something we're falling very far behind on.

The concept of making it easier for businesses to get loans could be good, though not sure if workable with a slowing economy?  Once you get Govt involved with these kind sof things people tend to blame their own failings on the Govt.

Prob the best idea is to give Infrastructure Australia the same kind of independence as the RBA.  Anything that can get the politics out of infrastructure investment, and ensure we commit scare puiblic funds to only projects that are self liquidating, the better.  Abbott has backtracked too much on his pre-election commitment for a CBA on all investments over $100M

What do you believe Abbott has done in the last year and half that's helped to move the budget towards balance?  Fuel excise indexation is about all I can think of that's decent policy, though I'd prefer it to run for a 3 year period as I believe Govt should make the case for the revenue it wants to extract.  having automatic increase in revenue creates lazy wasteful Govts.

Is Abbott being sensible to have pre-empted the tax white paper by ruling out so much already, something the LNP were rightly critical over Labor with the Henry tax review.  IS Abbott sensible to rule out funding for rail, even when it provides a better economic return than the road projects he's so fond of?  IS Abbott sensible to suggest investing in unecomic coal projects that the private sector has deemed not worth investing in?

Both sides are to blame, but the LNP are currently in Govt and should be doing the heavy lifting on getting the public to accept meaningful reform is required.  Then if Labor tried to block sensible policy, hopefully the voters wont reward them like they did with Abbott.

I find it funny that people who are now questioning Abbott didn't see this is where he was going to end up.  How could anyone believe he was going to:

* Cut taxes (revenue)

* Increase spending

* Get the budget back to surplus

All while the biggest mining boom in Aussie history was coming to an end and the ToT was destined to continue falling for years to come till it gets back around the long term average?  Labor were promising a unicoron for everyone, but Abbott one upped them with his flying unicorn, though we're now realising it was really a knackered old horse.


----------



## Tink (15 May 2015)

Syd, don't even go there with this useless Labor/Green Government we have in Victoria.

He takes the $1.5 billion and wastes $1 billion to not build a road, 

Then decides to take on the West side of the link.
Now he wants the CityLink establishment to build it - Transurban Group
https://www.citylink.com.au/

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/l...-abbott-moves-to-back-it-20150507-ggwnbq.html

Decides he shouldn't give back the money and if he does, we are in deficit.
We have some people clogged up for two hours trying to get home on the east.

They still can't say where $10B of Melb Metro funding will come from.

A public holiday that no one wants for the day BEFORE the Grand Final.

The Public Service and the Unions will be the only winners out of this Andrews Labor government.

Property owners face dramatic Fire Services Property Levy rise
http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/ne...operty-levy-rise/story-fnkfnspy-1227351716535

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28524&page=12


----------



## noco (15 May 2015)

wayneL said:


> So Syd, does Shorten's budget reply address any of these issues? Or make them a whole lot worse?




Shorten did not address where the money will come from with his hare brain scheme of free uni degrees for 100,000.
Shorten did not address how he will reduce the debt and deficit left by Rudd ans Gillard....He already has indicated a $52 billion black hole between spending and income....I mean, the man is an economic illiterate.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ortens_make_or_break_speech_update_its_break/


----------



## sydboy007 (15 May 2015)

noco said:


> Shorten did not address where the money will come from with his hare brain scheme of free uni degrees for 100,000.
> Shorten did not address how he will reduce the debt and deficit left by Rudd ans Gillard....He already has indicated a $52 billion black hole between spending and income....I mean, the man is an economic illiterate.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ortens_make_or_break_speech_update_its_break/




What did Abbott and Hockey do with the budget this year to get the deficit under control?

The forecasts they're using are so out of whack that by the end it will be clear to see that the deficit wil close to $50B than the $35B predicted.

Bit no worries, Abbott will have that coal being dug up from the gaililei and on ships to...nowhere....since there's just no demand for the stuff.  

Abbott and Barnet, reliant on fantasy predictions to keep the punters believing in their economic management skills


----------



## sydboy007 (15 May 2015)

Tink said:


> Syd, don't even go there with this useless Labor/Green Government we have in Victoria.
> 
> He takes the $1.5 billion and wastes $1 billion to not build a road,
> 
> ...




Tink

can you explain why the previous Liberal Govt rushed to sign the contracts?  They knew Labor was against the project, they knew that there was a lot of support for Labors stance against the project.

What was the harm to have allowed the voters to choose?  The Liberals did their best to force the issue onto tax payers.  I'm sure your reaction would be very different if Labor had been doing side deals with the various companies to try and enforce obscene penalties on the Govt if the contract was revoked.

There was no sound economic reason why the Liberal's couldn't have waited 3 months to sign the contract.


----------



## noco (15 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> What did Abbott and Hockey do with the budget this year to get the deficit under control?
> 
> The forecasts they're using are so out of whack that by the end it will be clear to see that the deficit wil close to $50B than the $35B predicted.
> 
> ...




Well for a start he has encouraged small business to buy equipment for their business which helps other business to survive with increased demand for labour, which in turn produces more tax income....It is what they call stimulus.

The deficit will still be way below Labor's predicted deficit.


----------



## sydboy007 (15 May 2015)

noco said:


> Well for a start he has encouraged small business to buy equipment for their business which helps other business to survive with increased demand for labour, which in turn produces more tax income....It is what they call stimulus.
> 
> The deficit will still be way below Labor's predicted deficit.




So Labor deficit spending = BAD

Liberal deficit spending = GOOD

Wasn't the building the Building the Education Revolution along the same lines ie Govt money into the pockets of various builders and traddies which helped those business survive with increased demand, which in turn produces more tax income?  wasn't that part of the reasoning behind the pink batts?  Wasn't that behind the cheques in the mail to consumers?

The business equipment will turn into a giant rort by small businesses.  I can see lots opf business equipment somehow finding it's way home and being used by the kids and other family members.

Shouldn't really surprise me, what with Abbott happy to have the car FBT rort continue, though for some reason when it's mainly women getting the rort he's dead set against it.

Anywho, if you think the small sugar hit of a few billion in extra spending is going to do diddly squat against 2-3% of GDP falls in mining CAPEX you really need to get a deeper understanding of the economy.

Govt revenue down, consumer spending down, export income down, wages growth down.

If you can point me to a politician who's being honest about the next few years I'll give them my vote.

Just remember, Pyne swore blind the Libs could have run surpluses through the GFC, and things ain't as bad now, so why the deficits?  Hockey has gone from a first budget surplus to maybe a first term to just stabilising the deficit as a % of GDP as how he'll define his economic accomplishments.


----------



## noco (15 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> So Labor deficit spending = BAD
> 
> Liberal deficit spending = GOOD
> 
> ...




Knowing the Labor/Green socialist left wing part's history on financial management, the $52 billion deficit they forecast will double to $104 billion....Just how much will the 100,000 free uni degrees cost?

Swannie told us the budget would be in surplus as promised and on time in 2013 and confirmed by Juliar.....Before the election we were told by Swannie, "Sorry fellows its blown out to $18 billion", but in actual fact it was $48 billion.
Labor did not even fund the Gonski and DIHS ....Swannie spent the mining tax money that he did not receive.....

What a joke


----------



## noco (15 May 2015)

noco said:


> Knowing the Labor/Green socialist left wing part's history on financial management, the $52 billion deficit they forecast will double to $104 billion....Just how much will the 100,000 free uni degrees cost?
> 
> Swannie told us the budget would be in surplus as promised and on time in 2013 and confirmed by Juliar.....Before the election we were told by Swannie, "Sorry fellows its blown out to $18 billion", but in actual fact it was $48 billion.
> Labor did not even fund the Gonski and DIHS ....Swannie spent the mining tax money that he did not receive.....
> ...




Perhaps our Billy boy should be the first to do a maths course.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1431676830448

*What Bill Shorten promised in his Budget reply speech:

    ...we will write off the HECS debt of 100,000 science technology, engineering and maths students

Wow. Each three-year degree in these fields costs each student $22,500 in HECS fees. So making 100,000 degrees free would cost the Government $2.25 billion.

But here’s what Shorten said today this promise would cost:

    We made it very clear with our costings that it was $45 million across forward estimates [four years] for scholarships to kick start kids being encouraged to go into science, maths and engineering..

How does Labor explain the difference between $2.25 billion and its claim of $45 million?

First try:

    Labor’s accompanying fact sheet said the policy would begin with 20,000 award degrees in 2017 ...

Oh, so Labor’s figures are for actually a fifth of its promise? But 20,000 times $22,500 equals $450,000,000, not Shorten’s $45,000,000.

I fear Shorten simply lost a zero on his figures, and his promise costs 10 times more than he said - and the full cost is 50 times more.

But Shorten has proved one thing: we sure do need more maths teachers. *


----------



## Tink (15 May 2015)

Syd, I had noticed that you had mentioned the east west link a few times, so was just giving you an update on what was going on here in Melbourne with this Labor/Greens government.

I have given my views on this already.


----------



## sydboy007 (15 May 2015)

Tink said:


> Syd, I had noticed that you had mentioned the east west link a few times, so was just giving you an update on what was going on here in Melbourne with this Labor/Greens government.
> 
> I have given my views on this already.




So your argument is that it was ok for the liberals to preempt the election and force the east west link.

Why did labor wear all the blame?

I just don't know how anyone can't support infrastructure that is not self liquidation.  If you wouldn't spend $1000 to make $450, then how can you defend what the Vic Liberals and Abbott were trying to force not only on Vic tax payers but the rest of Australia.


----------



## noco (16 May 2015)

One would have to have rocks in their head to ever vote the Green/Labor democratic socialist back into power.

Shorten has no heart in the welfare of this great nation of ours.....It is all politics with Shorten in doing his best to make the Liberal coalition fail...What a sad situation....If ever reelected Shorten would subtly convert to central control....Labor already has control of the ABC media and accompanied by Fairfax newspaper to promote their propaganda.


http://budget.liberal.org.au/


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> If you wouldn't spend $1000 to make $450, then how can you defend what the Vic Liberals and Abbott were trying to force not only on Vic tax payers but the rest of Australia.




It partly depends on how the benefits are calculated.

Eg a water supply scheme might not make a profit as such, but the resultant benefits to agriculture, cities, industry or whatever else is going to use the water may vastly exceed the cost of the scheme, despite the dam itself being unprofitable.

For a more complex example, rail. Building a rail line and running trains may itself result in a financial loss, but if it avoids the need to build an even more expensive highway duplication then it may be the lesser of two evils. Not profitable as such, but a means of cutting losses and in that case it makes sense to do it despite not being self liquidating as such.

To throw another cat amongst the mice, return on capital is a big problem with infrastructure and we are seeing some ridiculously high rates being applied in some cases. There's just no reason to pay a private owner anything more than what it would cost if government borrowed the money and owned the asset and that's not much in view of the current financial environment. There's nothing inherently wrong with borrowing to build long life, useful assets which self liquidate, it's only a problem when governments borrow in order to fund recurrent expenditure but unfortunately the two issues have become merged into one over the past 25 or so years.

For the record, all the major parties have confused the debt issue although I'm pretty sure it was the predecessors of what is now the Greens who came up with it first (though that was only because it was convenient in the context of an environmental debate at the time).


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> So your argument is that it was ok for the liberals to preempt the election and force the east west link.
> 
> Why did labor wear all the blame?
> 
> I just don't know how anyone can't support infrastructure that is not self liquidation.  If you wouldn't spend $1000 to make $450, then how can you defend what the Vic Liberals and Abbott were trying to force not only on Vic tax payers but the rest of Australia.




I'm not from Melbourne and am only guessing, however.

Another way of looking at it, may be the East West link, would unclog roads that are major freight routes.

What if trucks are moving important produce along those arteries, and are being held up a cumulative 2 hours per day per truck?

The cost to business would be huge, add to that, the increase in fuel and limits on produce moved.


----------



## noco (16 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not from Melbourne and am only guessing, however.
> 
> Another way of looking at it, may be the East West link, would unclog roads that are major freight routes.
> 
> ...




SP, surely you would expect the useless Labor Party to think of those things....Most of them are union hacks with very little knowledge of how business operates.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2015)

noco said:


> SP, surely you would expect the useless Labor Party to think of those things....Most of them are union hacks with very little knowledge of how business operates.




Who knows noco, neither party seem to have a coherent plan, other than try to get re elected.

Labors plan, for spending billions on a new section of underground rail under Melbourne, sounds like it makes life easier for people.

The LNP plan to unblock major traffic routes, may have been to facilitate business?

I know which one gets the most votes, boils back to the me, me,me mentality.

We really are in the manure as a country, I think.

Fortunately, we are near the end of the road, not the beginning.


----------



## banco (17 May 2015)

The East-West link was of questionable value and the way it was handled by the libs (the secrecy etc.) was disgraceful but the main reason Labor went so hard on it (they aren't usually that adverse to spending money on questionable infrastructure projects) is because the CFMEU would have been locked out of the East-West link.  The CFMEU is victorian labor's main financial backer and they couldn't/wouldn't tolerate being locked out of Victoria's biggest infrastructure project.


----------



## Tink (17 May 2015)

With the waste that this Victorian Labor/Greens government has accrued in six months, they should be tossed out.
They have sacked all the boards and replaced them with their own.

Syd, CityLink runs on the same as the East West link would have run, no difference.

What we were told is they want no roads, and that everyone had to catch public transport, that was how they fix the problem.
In all your days of politics, have you ever seen this sort of wastage.

I do blame Labor and the Greens for this mess.


----------



## sydboy007 (17 May 2015)

Seems like there's plenty of support for Liberal boondoggles where $1M a meter tunnels are considered a good way forward.

If you can be bothered having a read of the actual business case the files can be found here:

http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/east-west-link-announcement

To sum it up the East West Link project was estimated to deliver a benefit to cost ratio of just 0.45, and would have taken an estimated 56 years to pay-off. So far from delivering a “more productive Melbourne”, the project would have delivered negative economic outcomes to Victorians.

To make matters worse, the former Liberal Government then signed a side letter with the consortium partners agreeing to pay both their bid costs and “opportunity costs” even if the contracts were declared illegal, invalid or unenforceable. In turn, Victorian taxpayers have been left with two painful alternatives:

p100 forecasts traffic rampup to % of steady state volume: 91% by month 6. 96.5% by month 12. 100% by month 22. I wonder: Is this in line with recent experience?

A NSW Auditor-General report on Sydney’s Cross City Tunnel found that projections of 80% initially, and 88% after a year were about double the traffic levels that actually eventuated. Brisbane’s Clem7 and Airportlink tollways, and Melbourne’s EastLink had similar problems.

*Note that in East West Link’s case the taxpayer bears the risk.*

p176 Benefit Cost Ratio of stage 1 is 0.8 (eg it costs more than it makes) when “Wider Economic Benefits” (WEBs) are excluded. Including WEBs is 1.3-1.4.

Now for soemthing a bit dodgy with the whole economics of the project.  The earlier estimate, using the methodology preferred by Infrastructure Australia, came out at just 0.45. In later versions of the document, the methodology changed and the estimate rose to 0.8. The version released by the Herald Sun has the higher figure, and it’s been speculated that someone supportive of the project dropped that version to them deliberately to pre-empt reporting of the lower figure. Josh Gordon at The Age http://www.theage.com.au/comment/analysis-why-the-east-west-link-proved-such-a-hard-sell-20141215-127dfm.html has some nice analysis of how the figure grew from 0.45 to 0.8 with some WEBs, and then to 1.4 by including other projects such as the Tullamarine Freeway widening, and even Wider WEBs.



> *In an extraordinary admission, cabinet documents reveal the former government decided not to release the full business case to Infrastructure Australia – the independent umpire – because it was worried the low benefit-cost ratio "may be used as a justification for not supporting the project".*




WEBs are notoriously wibbly-wobbly in their calculation, and often controversial. For instance it’s not clear how they claim $2153m in agglomeration economies (specifically “growth in Melbourne’s competitive central core”) when the tollway doesn’t directly serve Melbourne’s central core.

It also claims a lot of benefits from travel time savings, but we know these never last.

Compared to the 1.4 the road gets with WEBs, the metro rail tunnel (which is also an incredibly expensive project) apparently got 1.9. And compared to the 0.8 for EWL without WEBs, the metro rail tunnel got 1.17 — so at least it isn’t loss-making when evaluated without possibly dodgy WEBs.

p209 summarises the revenues and outlays, and if I’m reading this right, seems to show toll revenue of about $200m per year against availability service payments from the government to the operator of about $345m each year. I assume by June 2023 that’s the “steady state”.

*If the toll revenue doesn’t get that high, then taxpayers foot the larger bill.* And remember this is only stage 1.

It's just another classic version of privatising the profits and socialising the losses.  Far better to take advantage of the historically low borrowing costs for Governments - currently around the 2.65%-2.70% for 10 year Vic Govt bonds.

But it's all Labor's fault, even though it was the Liberals that forced the issue on to tax payers when there was no economic reason to sign the contracts before the election.

On a side note, why isn't anyone commenting on the competency of Barnett.  Just handing down the biggest deficit in WA history.  Surely that can't be Labors fault too, considering they've not been in Govt there for a long long time.


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2015)

I must admit I have been burnt by road infrastructure investments. Connect East and River City Motorway, sounded good on paper, but I did my money.

Having said that I wonder how well they are patronised now? Somebody made a killing at the expense of us investors. Also Melbourne and Brisbane recieved some terrific infrastructure.

Barnett in W.A obviously got caught up in the euphoria of mineral income, a lot of the infrastructure is long overdue, but will take some paying off.
I don't think the public in W.A, is going to be too out of shape about it, at least we have something to show for the debt.

Usually we end up with debt, and nothing to show for it.


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## Smurf1976 (17 May 2015)

If there's a problem with transport in Melbourne then the sensible thing to do is to look at all the options for resolving it.

Building roads is one option. Diverting passenger traffic onto rail is another. Shifting load away from the peaks is another. Etc.

Rationally you'd come up with a list of all the options and score them based on cost, effectiveness and any other relevant points (eg environmental or aesthetic). Then pick the best one.

The notion that the only way to fix road congestion is to build another road is a very outdated way of thinking.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2015)

Smurf1976 said:


> If there's a problem with transport in Melbourne then the sensible thing to do is to look at all the options for resolving it.
> 
> Building roads is one option. Diverting passenger traffic onto rail is another. Shifting load away from the peaks is another. Etc.
> 
> ...




I wonder if there have been any studies on just why people have to travel from one side of the city. Obviously we know that some work at a different place than they live. so that indicates that the commercial and residential centres need to be closer together to minimise travel time, rather than just building more roads. 

In Sydney there has been a lot of commercial development above railway stations which seems a good idea for commuters and getting traffic off the roads, also the effect of the NBN and it's ability to cut down on the necessity to travel needs to be considered.


----------



## Tisme (18 May 2015)

noco said:


> SP, surely you would expect the useless Labor Party to think of those things....Most of them are union hacks with very little knowledge of how business operates.




I have had run ins from the union reps myself, so I am no fan of their tactics, but to distinguish union leaders from political leaders  is closeted thinking. The LNP, Lab aristocracies generally have no business acumen, are heads of  memberships, have rules of governance likes, accept annual dues like unions, have pecking orders like unions, have ballots like unions, et al .... they are unions of another name, but unions nonetheless.

We have a full blooded divided loyalty Roman Catholic treasurer, in denial about having an Australian birthright through his maternal mother, who crows (with a personal air of trauma and neglect) about a tenuous link to business knowhow, that is built on the toil of his shopkeeper parents, who apparently were worth much more to the nation than the labourers who also worked six days a week for their Toorak bosses to put food on their poverty street tables. I can only assume his parent's success is predicated on affording to send him to a Catholic private school, thet I'm sure the rest of our similarly poor parents subsidised.  He has displayed no business acumen at all. The closest he would come to business is via his wife and the hobby cattle farm they both own ( he on a politician income and her on a forex wage), where he is presumably Oliver Wendell Douglas and she is Lisa Douglas  .

The other full on talking head of the LNP, Cormann, graduated as a lawyer, then onwards as a public servant, which makes him eminently qualified to talk business, presumably because he was schooled by the Court family in WA. Yet another of the diehard Catholic boys in charge of the nation who has split loyalties to a crusty old bloke far away in Italy.

Where are your loyalties Noco? Are you proud of the nation those before us began, or are you so full of hate, spit and vitriol you can't spare or bear the thought of those filthy workers who needed a union to standup for their rights against men in power who could and still will bleed their workforce into starvation wages in pursuit of power and profit? Those same antichrists who presumably put money into the pension pot with their grubby hands, but died early from poor health, so you can draw down a part pension? But then again, by your own admission, you are a self made man who worked all his life to earn a living that wasn't under written by minimum wage won by the unions, a man who would not take a cent of pension that was won by the unions, or benefitted from an education won by the unions instead of going down the mines at 10 yearsold only to die by 30 of lung diseases.

You monotonous hate posts don't do any favours to those of us to actually own business', pay large taxation, build workforces and believe in Australia. You post like you speak for free enterprise and Liberal party values, but you don't seem to have a handle on what the true Liberal party doctrines were and how far they have strayed from their roots, how the Liberal party are far more imposing on business than even Paul Keating was, how even as recently as Campbell Newman who usurped the tried and tested legal process to force business into obeying new rules on who they could or couldn't employ by using police records as a, means to withhold newly mandated licences to conduct business (just like Nazi Germany did).


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2015)

Tisme said:
			
		

> how even as recently as Campbell Newman who usurped the tried and tested legal process to force business into obeying new rules on who they could or couldn't employ by using police records as a, means to withhold newly mandated licences to conduct business (just like Nazi Germany did).




Could you give some more detail on that ?


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## Tisme (18 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Could you give some more detail on that ?




Yes you can look at the Attorney General's dept new licencing regimes required to conduct business in a supposed anti red tape governance.

I myself was forced to have my finger prints taken to ensure that part of my business was not being run by a convict or person of interest. I cannot believe the legal profession allowed that to happen.

The building industry also had knew licencing regimes put in place that was tantamount to making sure developers (like Campbell's father in laws') could have unfetted freedom at the expense of builders, subbies and suppliers. Even the PPP arrangements that Gillard put in place who have eventually been usurped if the LNP hadn't been ousted.


----------



## noco (19 May 2015)

The unions are well and truly back in control of the Labor state government in Queensland.

More public servants inoculated with the Green/Labor socialists needle.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/28063428/qld-govt-backs-unions-in-public-service/

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...nion-secret-pact/story-fntuy59x-1227358882652

*Annastacia Palaszczuk has some explaining to do over the takeover of the Queensland Government by the trade union movement.

READ THE EXCLUSIVE STORY: Government told to recruit for unions

The union deal to promote unionism in the public service is intolerable, yet she hasn’t said much at all, leaving Treasurer and IR Curtis Pitt to fend off media questions.

The new deal means Queensland taxpayers are subsidising Labor’s union mates. Palaszczuk didn’t bother to announce it and sneakily put it up on her department’s website.

Federal Employment Minister Eric Abetz said the deal showed Queensland had the most “unashamedly pro-union government” in its history.

“All employees have the right to choose to join or not to join a union, however this Queensland government appears intent on destroying that right, ’’ he said.

“This is a government that doesn’t seem to be governing for all Queenslanders. Instead it just sees itself as a branch office of the union movement.”

Managers in the public service have been instructed to actively promote unionism.

It’s a dangerous area of the law.*


----------



## Tink (20 May 2015)

Tisme, I know you say you sit on the fence, but I don't agree with bloating the public service.
I call it 'organised chaos'.

Noco, we have the powerhouse here in Victoria -- Bill Shorten, Daniel Andrews and so was Julia Gillard -- all from the same mould. 
They all owe their positions to the union.

We all know how they won the Vic election, dressing up as paramedics etc and vandalising company cars with their graffiti.
They are now being paid off, and us taxpayers, have to fork the bill.

Bill Shorten’s union menace
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ens-union-menace/story-e6frg71x-1227360721000

Anyone that has worked in Victoria when Labor are in control know what they are like.
Banco, exactly right, they were locked out of the project as I mentioned in my last post.



Tink said:


> The Public Service and the Unions will be the only winners out of this Andrews Labor government.
> 
> Property owners face dramatic Fire Services Property Levy rise
> http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/ne...operty-levy-rise/story-fnkfnspy-1227351716535
> ...


----------



## Tisme (20 May 2015)

Tink said:


> Tisme, I know you say you sit on the fence, but I don't agree with bloating the public service.
> I call it 'organised chaos'.
> 
> .




Me too Tink. I think it's original purpose has been skewed into a shock absorber for govts to manipulate the employment numbers. Upto the 70's when the USA went into recession and then in the 80's when the rest of the world went into delayed sympathy, employment in Oz was so good we imported migrants to fill the voids, so no real need to play silly buggers with the PS apart from the father/son rules and jobs for rellies.

It makes me angry to think back watching the PS go from less than private enterprise wages in exchange for jobs for life, to the largesse of hyper superannuation, salary sacrifice, 120% of average wages, flex time, PD, etc. And then to rub salt into the wounds the govts have successively imposed PS rules, protocols, permissions and mandated behaviours onto the PE workers so that business can't compete profitably with overseas competitors.

My blood stills boils to think the Howard govt sold OUR assets to create a future fund, the sole purpose being to secure the uber superannuation "entitlements" of federal PS'. I shook my head back in the day watching the head of the fed PS enthusiastically telling the nation's housewives watching Mike Walsh (actually I think it was the Midday Show ) that the PS self evolved KPI system showed it to the most efficient workforce in the nation, thus the entitlement for monetary and conditions rewards; and I still get angry at the impudence of him his behaviour like a boy with two dicks.

To say the PS is organised chaos is giving them an excuse for their self absorbed, almost ghetto attitude. They don't seem to get promoted on ability or self determination, but on tenuous academic pieces of papers, personal development day releases, gender cards, obedience, etc. I even have an acquaintance whose job is to deliver the latest in govt "innovation" ideas via workshops to the plebs ... this is to people with degrees and the like who apparently can't read and need guidance on how to fill out a form that their own pointy heads made up to create a job for someone to deliver it to fellow workers ... full on self articulating circular net zero worth to anyone.

Yes Tink. in my industry we call it entropy. And by now you would realise that not only do I hold political "parties", religious institutions and rusted ons in disdain, I especially don't like the metatalking public service for how it soaks money into a monofunction polis that should restrict itself to public health, public welfare and capital works and of course sending memos between heads of dept who are too lazy and too risk averse to speak to someone face to face.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2015)

Well at last Labor has found its voice, and as per usual are showing their fiscal ineptitude.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...x-back-in-play-for-labor-20150520-gh5sws.html

The fabulous mining brain fart tax, in Chris Bowens words:

*Mr Bowen said the world had changed since 2010, rendering a mining super-profits tax no longer relevant*.

But Mr Bowen you forward spent billions on its relevance. Dumb.

However Mr Bowen will re introduce a carbon tax.

Well why not it is a gst on electricity, you will always make money, who cares what damage it does to small industry?

I would like to ask him, how is imposing a tax on small business when they are struggling, any different to not having a mining tax because miners are struggling?

Talk about a shoot from the hip tax policy, absolute dicks, unfortunate but expected.

I always thought Bowen may have been o.k, obviously trying to find policy that reduces debt without reducing spending, is beyond him.

The Bill and Chris show will derail before the Abbott, Hockey show.IMO


----------



## dutchie (21 May 2015)

The useless Labor Party wants to bring back the useless Carbon Tax.

Excellent (a la Mr Burns)

They are just so funny.


----------



## MrBurns (21 May 2015)

dutchie said:


> The useless Labor Party wants to bring back the useless Carbon Tax.
> 
> Excellent (a la Mr Burns)
> 
> They are just so funny.




Don't know what I've got to do with this  oh yes the cartoon Mr Burns.....

All I can do is wonder why this thread had gone on for 33 pages when the title should have been the start and finish of it.


----------



## sydboy007 (22 May 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Don't know what I've got to do with this  oh yes the cartoon Mr Burns.....
> 
> All I can do is wonder why this thread had gone on for 33 pages when the title should have been the start and finish of it.




How is your Abbott Govt any better?

2 budgets and how much meaningful reform?

A whitepaper that's already neutered to the point of worthless.

A PM who's weather vane politics are so plain to see with his on off on off support for an iron ore inquiry.

PM captains call fro no changes ever to super when the whol industry and pension association are saying a look at the issues, along with the pension and pensioner incomes needs to be all ont he table and looked at wholistically, but the Govt is playing politics with the issue because they want to appear to different to Labor.


----------



## trainspotter (22 May 2015)

Extra extra read all about it .........







> BILL Shorten is emerging as Julia Gillard reincarnated, with Labor poised to take key Gillard policies to the next election ”” including a price on carbon and softer boats policy.
> 
> Labor’s powerful left faction is pressuring Mr Shorten to soften his stance on national security and end the controversial turnback policy that stopped illegal boat arrivals.
> 
> ...




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-failed-policies/story-fnpn118l-1227364478193

No guessing which way the News Corp wants this to play out.

Wikipedia describes it best ...



> Profoundly anti-Labor, The Telegraph's tongue is firmly planted up the rear end of the Australian Liberal Party. This is especially the case with its most high-profile columnists, among them Piers Akerman, Miranda Devine, Tim Blair and Andrew Bolt who are stridently politically conservative, and unabashedly provocative. Blair for instance, in 2014, labelled all arts students as a 'grasping kind' whose 'pointless degrees' fitted them for 'pointless careers as academics, public servants and drug addicts', in an article that began by favourably invoking a New Zealand musical troupe whose members were arts graduates.[9]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph_(Australia)


----------



## noco (22 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> How is your Abbott Govt any better?
> 
> 2 budgets and how much meaningful reform?
> 
> ...




Isn't this thread supposed be about the "USELESS LABOR PARTY"?

In case you have forgotten, there is another thread about the Abbott Government.


----------



## noco (22 May 2015)

After all this about the missile destroyers over budget and 3 years late, Shorten still wants the submarines built in Australia...He has no idea about economics ...perhaps he should be talking to Mark Latham who a degree in economics. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...blows-out-to-9bn/story-e6frg8yo-1227364435942

*The Air Warfare Destroyer program will run about $2 billion over budget and be nearly three years late, according to a forensic audit to be released today.

The total cost to build the three missile destroyers will exceed $9bn, meaning each ship will cost approximately $3bn. Comparable ships built by Navantia in Spain cost about $1bn.

If Australia had bought the ships ready-built in Spain, it could have had nine for the price of three, or saved $6bn.*


----------



## sydboy007 (22 May 2015)

noco said:


> After all this about the missile destroyers over budget and 3 years late, Shorten still wants the submarines built in Australia...He has no idea about economics ...perhaps he should be talking to Mark Latham who a degree in economics.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...blows-out-to-9bn/story-e6frg8yo-1227364435942
> ...




Well even Abbott can't make up his mind if he was selling Japan on the FTA for the subs or if he was worried about losing too many seats in SA so going ahead with building the subs there.

You get these issues when the PM has no spine and makes decisions based on the latest polling.


----------



## noco (22 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Well even Abbott can't make up his mind if he was selling Japan on the FTA for the subs or if he was worried about losing too many seats in SA so going ahead with building the subs there.
> 
> You get these issues when the PM has no spine and makes decisions based on the latest polling.




Syd, unlike Shorten, I am sure Abbott will make a decision in the best interest of Australia.

Shorten wants to support his  communist dominated union mates and build the subs in Australia irrespective of the cost.

If Labor attempted to build the subs in Australia, they will finish up like the navy air missile  defense ships, $2 billion over budget and 3 years late....If Shorten builds the subs here, they will finish up in the same fate as the ships.
Most likely cost 3 times as much and probably 5 years late. ...By the time they hit the water, they will be obsolete.


----------



## MrBurns (22 May 2015)

noco said:


> Syd, unlike Shorten, I am sure Abbott will make a decision in the best interest of Australia.
> 
> Shorten wants to support his  communist dominated union mates and build the subs in Australia irrespective of the cost.
> 
> ...




They couldn't build school halls without blowing millions of taxpayers dollars so I don't think I'd let them loose on submarines


----------



## noco (22 May 2015)

MrBurns said:


> They couldn't build school halls without blowing millions of taxpayers dollars so I don't think I'd let them loose on submarines




I doubt if they could plan and build a canoe on time and on budget.


----------



## sydboy007 (22 May 2015)

noco said:


> Syd, unlike Shorten, I am sure Abbott will make a decision in the best interest of Australia.
> 
> Shorten wants to support his  communist dominated union mates and build the subs in Australia irrespective of the cost.
> 
> ...






MrBurns said:


> They couldn't build school halls without blowing millions of taxpayers dollars so I don't think I'd let them loose on submarines




Oh, you mean the Abbott Govt that promised a nation wide FTTN rollout in years of opposition in it's first term then reneged on the promise within a few months of getting into office.  Yup, they certainly know how to promise the world and fail to deliver.


----------



## noco (22 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Oh, you mean the Abbott Govt that promised a nation wide FTTN rollout in years of opposition in it's first term then reneged on the promise within a few months of getting into office.  Yup, they certainly know how to promise the world and fail to deliver.




Syd, what the hell are you talking about?

The Abbott government is still proceeding with the NBN, they are doing it more economically than Labor.....Conroy was behind schedule and over budget just like all Labor projects..The FTTN would have cost a fortune to complete...Something which we could not afford without going deeper into debt......We have enough problems left by the Green/Labor socialists and I am sure I don't have to go into detail about that.

Once again you are off the theme of this thread but of course that is the way Labor operates.....diversification away from the real problem.


----------



## dutchie (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> Syd, unlike Shorten, I am sure *Abbott will make a decision in the best interest of Australia*.





This is the crux of the submarine debate.

(my bolds)


----------



## sydboy007 (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> Syd, what the hell are you talking about?
> 
> The Abbott government is still proceeding with the NBN, they are doing it more economically than Labor.....Conroy was behind schedule and over budget just like all Labor projects..The FTTN would have cost a fortune to complete...Something which we could not afford without going deeper into debt......We have enough problems left by the Green/Labor socialists and I am sure I don't have to go into detail about that.
> 
> Once again you are off the theme of this thread but of course that is the way Labor operates.....diversification away from the real problem.




Have you forgotten that Abbott and Turnbull both promised before the 2013 election that they would rollout the NBN so that all households would have a minimum of 25Mbs, with a goal for 2019 of 90% of the population getting 50Mbs.  In december 2013 Turnbull admitted that policy was not going to be achieved, thoyugh he should have been more honest to say it was never achievable.

Now, the other topic was your submarines.  I'm wondering if Abbott will follow the Howard seasprites doctrine.  $1.4B junked because they ended up so unsafe to fly.  Reminds me a bit of the JSF, the largest boondoggle in US history and likely to see Australia so far behind most Asian countries in the next 10 years in terms of air power.  Not sure what Howard was more gun ho to sign up Australia for.  The Iraq War, $2.5B last year and counting, The USAUS FTA, leaving us with a PBS bill over $200M a year higher, or the JSF.  Decisions based mainly on short term politics than the long term interests of the country.

As for being on topic, I'm just highlighting that claims you make for Labor being useless as just as applicable for the Liberals.


----------



## sydboy007 (23 May 2015)

dutchie said:


> This is the crux of the submarine debate.
> 
> (my bolds)




Ah, you have heard that Sinodinos recently admitted that Abbott made is nope nope nope on changes to super based purely on the politics "It's a strategic decision."

I think Abbott's more worried about bums on the treasury benches than he is about the long term welfare of the country.


----------



## noco (23 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Ah, you have heard that Sinodinos recently admitted that Abbott made is nope nope nope on changes to super based purely on the politics "It's a strategic decision."
> 
> I think Abbott's more worried about bums on the treasury benches than he is about the long term welfare of the country.




I thought it was nope, nope, nope to people smugglers....you seem to be in a muddle with your rhetoric.

The Useless Labor Party costs us over $11 billion with their stupid policy on  open borders and we are still counting.


----------



## MrBurns (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> I thought it was nope, nope, nope to people smugglers....you seem to be in a muddle with your rhetoric.


----------



## noco (23 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Have you forgotten that Abbott and Turnbull both promised before the 2013 election that they would rollout the NBN so that all households would have a minimum of 25Mbs, with a goal for 2019 of 90% of the population getting 50Mbs.  In december 2013 Turnbull admitted that policy was not going to be achieved, thoyugh he should have been more honest to say it was never achievable.
> 
> Now, the other topic was your submarines.  I'm wondering if Abbott will follow the Howard seasprites doctrine.  $1.4B junked because they ended up so unsafe to fly.  Reminds me a bit of the JSF, the largest boondoggle in US history and likely to see Australia so far behind most Asian countries in the next 10 years in terms of air power.  Not sure what Howard was more gun ho to sign up Australia for.  The Iraq War, $2.5B last year and counting, The USAUS FTA, leaving us with a PBS bill over $200M a year higher, or the JSF.  Decisions based mainly on short term politics than the long term interests of the country.
> 
> As for being on topic, I'm just highlighting that claims you make for Labor being useless as just as applicable for the Liberals.




Conroy promised us 100 Mbs of which he had no hope of attaining.

I repeat, Conroy was already way over budget, behind time and had sent some contractors broke in the meantime....One of I know in Townsville....Conroy was hopeless.

My gawd you are becoming desperate to bring Howard into the firing line.


----------



## MrBurns (23 May 2015)

Conroy was almost the worst example of someone totally unfit for public office, though it's a close competition in the ALP for that title.


----------



## noco (23 May 2015)

With just 17% membership in the private sector and some 42% in the public sector, the communist dominated unions sure have a lot of say in how the Queensland state government is run.

Watch the state public service now explode back to the bad old days of Anna Bligh. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...nions-is-payback/story-fntuy59x-1227365702491

*Annastacia Palaszczuk needs to level with Queenslanders on this one, particularly the public servants whose independence is being diminished by this document,” he said.

“I don’t think Queenslanders voted to allow union bosses to have access to the personal details of every new government employee and they certainly didn’t vote for union encouragement to be at the top of the Palaszczuk-Gordon Government’s agenda.”

Union delegates will also be given taxpayer-subsidised office space, telephones, computers, noticeboards and other facilities – and allowed to recruit members and conduct union business during office hours. And you will pay for it.*


----------



## noco (23 May 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Conroy was almost the worst example of someone totally unfit for public office, though it's a close competition in the ALP for that title.




Mr.Burns what else would you expect from the Green/Labor socialist left.....The majority of Labor MPs are ex union hacks with absolutely no knowledge  in the fundamentals of how a business in run....The NBN was worked out on the back of a serviette.....There was no business plan.....no accurate costings.....and no cost benefit.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> Mr.Burns what else would you expect from the Green/Labor socialist left.....The majority of Labor MPs are ex union hacks with absolutely no knowledge  in the fundamentals of how a business in run....The NBN was worked out on the back of a serviette.....There was no business plan.....no accurate costings.....and no cost benefit.




Ha what a joke.

Abbott, almost sacked by his own party, has gone back on so many promises he can't remember what he did say or didn't and now suffers from permanent spine curvature (what spine he has which is not much), from all the backflips. First supported an iron ore enquiry then did another backflip after being sat on by his real bosses in the BHP boardroom.

And lets not forget the pathetic PPL scheme he had to back down on.


Hockey, couldn't manage to get his first Budget through the Senate and was forced into an embarrassing backdown, turning from a tiger to a kitten in less than a year.

Kevin Andrews sacked from the Health portfolio for incompetence, and then given Defence God help us.

David Johnston sacked from Defence for incompetence.

What a right lot of Charlies.


----------



## sydboy007 (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> I thought it was nope, nope, nope to people smugglers....you seem to be in a muddle with your rhetoric.
> 
> The Useless Labor Party costs us over $11 billion with their stupid policy on  open borders and we are still counting.




Very true, but the same effect when considered in his no changes EVER under a Liberal Govt to super taxation.  Not sure how that's sustainable.

How much has the baby bonus cost us?  How much tax free super for the over 60s?  How much from the unsustainable income tax cuts from the Howard years?  How much did the poorly managed asset sales from the Howard years cost us?  Buildings sold and leased back at rents that cost more than the sale price within 5-7 years.

The we have the Abbott budget.  Raising an extra $20B in tax and cutting the deficit by just $6B.  Talk about high tax and spending, the largest such Govt spending spree since the GFC, and at least Labor was facing the largest drop in global economic activity in a couple of generations.  In the last 30 years, there have been 10 occasions when the tax to GDP ratio has been below 22.0 per cent of GDP and all 10 were under a Labor Government.  In terms of government spending, there have been only five years in the four decades leading up to 2012-13 when government spending was cut in real terms. None of those cuts were delivered by a Coalition government.  There there have been only seven occasions where the tax to GDP ratio has been in excess of 23.5 per cent of GDP all occurred under a Liberal Govt.  Hows does this tally with the myth of liberal economic exceptionalism?


----------



## noco (23 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Very true, but the same effect when considered in his no changes EVER under a Liberal Govt to super taxation.  Not sure how that's sustainable.
> 
> How much has the baby bonus cost us?  How much tax free super for the over 60s?  How much from the unsustainable income tax cuts from the Howard years?  How much did the poorly managed asset sales from the Howard years cost us?  Buildings sold and leased back at rents that cost more than the sale price within 5-7 years.
> 
> The we have the Abbott budget.  Raising an extra $20B in tax and cutting the deficit by just $6B.  Talk about high tax and spending, the largest such Govt spending spree since the GFC, and at least Labor was facing the largest drop in global economic activity in a couple of generations.  In the last 30 years, there have been 10 occasions when the tax to GDP ratio has been below 22.0 per cent of GDP and all 10 were under a Labor Government.  In terms of government spending, there have been only five years in the four decades leading up to 2012-13 when government spending was cut in real terms. None of those cuts were delivered by a Coalition government.  There there have been only seven occasions where the tax to GDP ratio has been in excess of 23.5 per cent of GDP all occurred under a Liberal Govt.  Hows does this tally with the myth of liberal economic exceptionalism?




How much did the Green/Labor socialist left wing cost us in borrowings on hare brain schemes of over priced school halls ans pink bats during their term in office 2007/2013......$300 billion?...$400 billion?..and if they had still been in office it would have blown out to $667 billion. 

Oh I see, you don't want to talk about the Labor inefficiencies...What a shame.


----------



## MrBurns (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> How much did the Green/Labor socialist left wing cost us in borrowings on hare brain schemes of over priced school halls ans pink bats during their term in office 2007/2013......$300 billion?...$400 billion?..and if they had still been in office it would have blown out to $667 billion.
> 
> Oh I see, you don't want to talk about the Labor inefficiencies...What a shame.




Not only that but here in Vic dopey Andrews kicks off proceedings with a $1B handout to developers NOT to build a road.  In the meantime car rego is $750, enough for many poorer people to buy another car, and property stamp duty is theft at present levels.
No, politics isn't good at present, but the ALP stands out as the most incompetent party at all levels, they would be deregistered if there was any justice.


----------



## trainspotter (23 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> VThe we have the Abbott budget.  Raising an extra $20B in tax and cutting the deficit by just $6B.  Talk about high tax and spending, the largest such Govt spending spree since the GFC, and at least Labor was facing the largest drop in global economic activity in a couple of generations.  In the last 30 years, there have been 10 occasions when the tax to GDP ratio has been below 22.0 per cent of GDP and all 10 were under a Labor Government.  In terms of government spending, there have been only five years in the four decades leading up to 2012-13 when government spending was cut in real terms. None of those cuts were delivered by a Coalition government.  There there have been only seven occasions where the tax to GDP ratio has been in excess of 23.5 per cent of GDP all occurred under a Liberal Govt.  Hows does this tally with the myth of liberal economic exceptionalism?




Got a link to back up these statements syd? I know you are correct but a verification from an independent source would be nice. I do remember posting not that long ago that the AVERAGE tax to GDP was LESS under a LIBERAL government. Ooopsies ... cherry picking again.

Anyone remember the 64 GP Super Clinics we were promised by Labor in the 2010 election? Anyone care to tell me how many of them were actually built and how much money was wasted?

Just the tip of the iceberg on the WASTE and BROKEN PROMISES by Labor so PLEASE let's not go down that winding path as I am sure that LABOR has the monopoly on this score.


----------



## sydboy007 (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> How much did the Green/Labor socialist left wing cost us in borrowings on hare brain schemes of over priced school halls ans pink bats during their term in office 2007/2013......$300 billion?...$400 billion?..and if they had still been in office it would have blown out to $667 billion.
> 
> Oh I see, you don't want to talk about the Labor inefficiencies...What a shame.




How much of the deficit was caused by the unsustainable spending spree of the Howard years.  tax cuts are pretty much forever.  At least Labor was smart enough to do one off spending increases to get through the GFC.  Have you forgotten that the Abbott Govt is 2 budgets and 2 deficits.  Their forecasts are unicorns and pixie dust laced with no hope of being achieved, yet they're not projecting to get to break-even till end of the decade.  Abbott made balancing the budget sound so easy in opposition, heck even Pyne crowed that the Liberals would have run surpluses through the GFC, so what's changed?  Why have the Liberals continued to add debt and more debt?  Why haven't they followed in labor's footsteps and kept the growth in spending less than CPI?  $20B in extra tax and only $6B loped off the budget deficit.  Spend spend spend says Abbott and give me a go at a second term.




MrBurns said:


> Not only that but here in Vic dopey Andrews kicks off proceedings with a $1B handout to developers NOT to build a road.  In the meantime car rego is $750, enough for many poorer people to buy another car, and property stamp duty is theft at present levels.
> No, politics isn't good at present, but the ALP stands out as the most incompetent party at all levels, they would be deregistered if there was any justice.




* Labor signaled they would not build the road before the state election.

* Voters showed strong polling intent to vote Labor

* Liberal Govt thumbs it's nose at democracy and for no economic reason rushes to sign contracts to build the $1M per meter tunnel that would generate a sub economic return of $45c in the $ - why do you support he building of sub economic infrastructure??

* Documents released now show the Liberals knew the project was subeconomic and were unwilling to submit it to Infrastructure Australia for fear of the negative press it would generate

* Liberal Government then signs a secret agreement with the contract holders basically tying the new Govts hands in terms of compensation.

So you're saying that you fully support what the Liberals did pre the election and that the whole issue is purely due to Labor?  How one eyed can you be.  How can you support the Liberals for pushing through when they had no clear mandate, when in effect the election gave a resounding mandate for Labor to not proceed with the project?  The Vic Liberals should hold their heads in shame for what they did.  I'm hoping Labor decides to do an Abbott-esq witch-hunt and RC into what the State and Federal Libs did, what correspondence was done with the various companies bidding on the contract.  I'm sure it would make for very interesting reading.

Vic Labor should introduce the Liberal Road Scandal tax to registrations to help fund the loss of money, and remind Victorians of how poorly the Liberals treated them.


----------



## sydboy007 (23 May 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Got a link to back up these statements syd? I know you are correct but a verification from an independent source would be nice. I do remember posting not that long ago that the AVERAGE tax to GDP was LESS under a LIBERAL government. Ooopsies ... cherry picking again.
> 
> Anyone remember the 64 GP Super Clinics we were promised by Labor in the 2010 election? Anyone care to tell me how many of them were actually built and how much money was wasted?
> 
> Just the tip of the iceberg on the WASTE and BROKEN PROMISES by Labor so PLEASE let's not go down that winding path as I am sure that LABOR has the monopoly on this score.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...f-the-loose-purse-strings-20130110-2cj32.html

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1426163692

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-12/dunlop-the-myth-of-coalition-economic-management/6308704

http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/02/13/myth-of-coalition-govts-howard-the-biggest-spender-of-all/

I wish I could find an article I read that really hacked into the economic credentials of Howard, especially the sale and leaseback of buildings that left tax payers financially dudded for decades, and IT projects reminiscent of QLD Labor and IBM.

Care to backup you claims that Labor has a monopoly on broken promises.  Do you know how many Abbott has already broken?

Hey remember when Howard claimed interest rates would always be lower under the Liberals, then he continued to spend spend spend while the economy was overheating and the RBA jacked interest rates up so mortgage hit 9%?  An extra 1% interest on over a trillion dollars of debt.  Those high interest rates also crushed loval manufacturing. 

Now if that extra mortgage interest had been added to the federal deficit people might realise how dudded they were, and that the Liberals are not really that savvy when it comes to other people's money


----------



## noco (23 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...f-the-loose-purse-strings-20130110-2cj32.html
> 
> http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1426163692
> 
> ...




What a lot of rubbish you have come up with.

Those articles are all associated with left wing columnist, so what else would you expect?
The Drum part of the left wing ABC......Tim Dunlop writes for the Drum...Cricket....Oz Politics are all left wing organizations....Of course it would be so easy for them to fabricate these false stories...I hope the ASF readers take it all with a grain of salt.

Very clever Sydboy but it won't work with me.

*Responding to the IMF report, shadow treasurer Joe Hockey, who was a minister for financial services in the Howard government, said the Coalition left Labor with a $20 billion surplus and no net debt.

"It was not John Howard and Peter Costello who wasted billions of taxpayer dollars on dangerous pink batts and overpriced school halls, it was this Labor government," he said.*


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2015)

> Responding to the IMF report, shadow treasurer Joe Hockey, who was a minister for financial services in the Howard government, said the Coalition left Labor with a $20 billion surplus and no net debt.
> 
> "It was not John Howard and Peter Costello who wasted billions of taxpayer dollars on dangerous pink batts and overpriced school halls, it was this Labor government," he said.




And what else would you expect from a Right Wing neo con Tory ?


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> And what else would you expect from a Right Wing neo con Tory ?




I think the predilection of the govt lads to bare face lie, denigrate  and talk down Australia when in opposition leaves them with no authority to speak truthfully about anything. They are simply untrustworthy, more so than bygone politicians IMO.  It seems political colours are more important to some voters than the stature of the individual with a bum on a parliamentary seat.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> It seems political colours are more important to some voters than the stature of the individual with a bum on a parliamentary seat.




Definitely the perceived "least worst" option is being selected by a large number of voters, and many still vote one way because their parents did etc, or for a perception that Liberals stand for "freedom" (while bringing down draconian privacy invading metadata bull$hite laws) and that Labor stands for Socialist oppression.

Remind you of anyone ?


----------



## sydboy007 (23 May 2015)

noco said:


> What a lot of rubbish you have come up with.
> 
> Those articles are all associated with left wing columnist, so what else would you expect?
> The Drum part of the left wing ABC......Tim Dunlop writes for the Drum...Cricket....Oz Politics are all left wing organizations....Of course it would be so easy for them to fabricate these false stories...I hope the ASF readers take it all with a grain of salt.
> ...




No. it was John Howard who set spending at unsustainable levels.  As can be seen by how difficult it is to get even small changes made to reduce spending, it's very easy to throw the money away, much harder to stop the loss of revenue.

The surpluses under howard were too small.  More money should have been saved.  Howard and Costello needed to educate the public that the revenue coming in was a one off, that tax cuts and spending increases year after year were not good for the long term budget.  Instead we had far to much wasteful spending.  Instead of Howard saving more he spent it, leaving the RBA to jack up interest rates to try and cool the economy, leading to a massively overvalued AUD that decimated local manufacturing.

Chile was able to save plenty from the copper boom.  Heck even Russia was able to set aside large chunks of money from the oil boom.  The lucky country decided to expand middle class welfare on a whitlam esq scale.  Do a bit of research outside The Australian and Fox News and you'll start to get a better understanding.

It was John Howard who gave us the USAUS FTA where we're out of pocket some $200M+ a year in PBS payments.  It was John Howard who signed us up for the Iraq war, costing $2.5B and counting, with how many returned soldiers lives damaged??  It was John Howard who signed up for the JSF, and now Abbott doubling down on a fighter jet where over 100 have bene built but not one is ready for military operations.  the JSF can't even fly on a cloudy day, it can't fly near clouds or lightning - it can explode if struck - so pilots are instructed to keep 30kms away from any inclement weather.  So close to vicotry but the rain lead to defeat.

From the green left daily: http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...ity-combat-risks/story-fnpjxnlk-1227269104114



> The DoD Quality Assurance Assessment, released late last week, states that 21 out of 462 specification requirements were unlikely to be met under the program’s already heavily revised and delayed delivery schedule.
> 
> But it’s what those 21 specifications are that raise alarm bells.
> 
> “Examples of these 21 requirements included: Maintainability, manoeuvrability, payload requirements, ballistic vulnerability, and ... internal gun accuracy,” the DoD report reads. “However, Lockheed Martin did not consider these 21 requirements as risks and did not handle them in accordance with its risk management process.




For some more issues - http://www.alternet.org/fail-400-billion-military-jet-cant-fly-cloudy-weather

If the Pilot Can Eject, He'll Be Lucky Not to Drown

The report's executive summary gives a sense of what some of the "current restrictions" of the F-35 are:



> Aircraft operating limitations prohibit flying the aircraft at night or in instrument meteorological conditions, hence pilots must avoid clouds and other weather. These restrictions are in place because testing has not been completed to certify the aircraft for night and instrument flight.
> 
> The aircraft also is currently prohibited from flying close formation, aerobatics, and stalls, all of which would normally be in the familiarization phase of transition training?.
> 
> ...




So why would an economically responsible Government increase their order by 58?  Remember it was Howard who did the initial order and it's Abbott that's gone all the way with JSF.


----------



## noco (23 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> And what else would you expect from a Right Wing neo con Tory ?





*Responding to the IMF report, shadow treasurer Joe Hockey, who was a minister for financial services in the Howard government, said the Coalition left Labor with a $20 billion surplus and no net debt.

"It was not John Howard and Peter Costello who wasted billions of taxpayer dollars on dangerous pink batts and overpriced school halls, it was this Labor government," he said.*

The above statement was made by Peter Martin another left wing socialist.


----------



## explod (24 May 2015)

Noco,  re-read the first two para's of Sydboy's last post. 

You are biased and selective ole pal.


----------



## noco (24 May 2015)

explod said:


> Noco,  re-read the first two para's of Sydboy's last post.
> 
> You are biased and selective ole pal.




Hmmmm....I would say it is the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## IFocus (24 May 2015)

noco said:


> How much did the Green/Labor socialist left wing cost us in borrowings on hare brain schemes of over priced school halls ans pink bats during their term in office 2007/2013......$300 billion?...$400 billion?..and if they had still been in office it would have blown out to $667 billion.
> 
> Oh I see, you don't want to talk about the Labor inefficiencies...What a shame.




GFC was $40 bil..............current Coalition spends same as Labors during the GFC............Liberals has totally loss control


----------



## explod (24 May 2015)

noco said:


> Hmmmm....I would say it is the pot calling the kettle black.




And again dodging the question.


----------



## noco (24 May 2015)

IFocus said:


> GFC was $40 bil..............current Coalition spends same as Labors during the GFC............Liberals has totally loss control




You are dreaming


----------



## sydboy007 (24 May 2015)

noco said:


> Hmmmm....I would say it is the pot calling the kettle black.




So Noco, what are you views on Abbott increasing the order for the JSF?  Another 58 of them.

Remember this is a plane that's had 100 produced and not one certified to do much but look pretty on the ground and fly in clear weather.

Would you increase an order of the fighter jets before it was clear that all the issues that have been highlighted in multiple reports were resolved, or at least shown to have a resolution?

You condemn Labor for looking at producing the next gen of subs in Australia, but seem to be OK with Abbott spending an extra $12B, though the end purchase price will be much higher as the cost of each jet just keeps on going up.  What sane person would commit to spending that much money when the risks are so high?  The cost for each jet was already over budget by 93% in 2012, and things have only gotten worse since.  

Even Liberal members think Abbott has made a huge mistake.  Liberal MP Dennis Jensen has attacked the party for not having the balls to cancel the order.  He should know as he was a former defence department analyst.

Me thinks it was a very very expensive photo opp for the PM


----------



## sptrawler (24 May 2015)

I've been away for a few days, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Hasn't Bill promised another spending spree recently?

!00,00 free degrees, in courses no one wants to do, because they are too hard. 

What a hoot.

Another bit of pixies at the end of the garden economics.

Labor made year 12 compulsory, then wondered why we didn't have tradesmen, wow that's bright.

Then we have to import Engineers and technical people, because none of our students are doing engineering subjects, just warm feel good $hit that is worthless.

Priceless, just priceless, social engineering at its worst.


----------



## sptrawler (24 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> No. it was John Howard who set spending at unsustainable levels.  As can be seen by how difficult it is to get even small changes made to reduce spending, it's very easy to throw the money away, much harder to stop the loss of revenue.
> 
> The surpluses under howard were too small.  More money should have been saved.  Howard and Costello needed to educate the public that the revenue coming in was a one off, that tax cuts and spending increases year after year were not good for the long term budget.  Instead we had far to much wasteful spending.  Instead of Howard saving more he spent it, leaving the RBA to jack up interest rates to try and cool the economy, leading to a massively overvalued AUD that decimated local manufacturing.
> 
> ...




Come on Syd, stop ganging up on Noco.

You call for social equity, yet you tell everyone to rort medicare, 

You talk about inequity in Govt subsidies, yet from memory you got free insulation and installed solar panels. That are still costing everyone heaps.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...fits-grattan-institute-report-20150524-gh7pof

You want a tax cut for employees, to be paid for be ex employees, that are self funded retirees.

What don't you want? Obviously, nothing that is going to cost you anything.

Sorry in advance.


----------



## noco (24 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Come on Syd, stop ganging up on Noco.
> 
> You call for social equity, yet you tell everyone to rort medicare,
> 
> ...




SP, I have read  that much rubbish coming from this quarter this week that I doubt whether a garbage truck would br big enough to cart it sll away..


----------



## sydboy007 (25 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I've been away for a few days, but correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Hasn't Bill promised another spending spree recently?
> 
> ...




The current budget sees 20B in extra taxation but forecasts only 6B in deficit reduction, though once the next fall in I/O prices comes through later in the year, investment continues to decline rather than increase, and pretty much every other rainbow forecast doesn't come through, well then teh Abbott Govt has really just been spending extra money it didn't really have.

So how's that any different to what you're criticising Labor for?  If the Abbott budget blows out by $10-15B, which I think is quite likely based on their unrealistic assumptions, then haven't they been spending what they don't have?


----------



## sydboy007 (25 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Come on Syd, stop ganging up on Noco.
> 
> You call for social equity, yet you tell everyone to rort medicare,
> 
> ...




When have I told anyone to rort medicare?

I have no solar panels

I have made arguments to change taxation, especially around super that would likely be detrimental to myself, but considering I'm a high income earner I see that as fair.  I'll likely pay $30K in income tax alone this year.  In Liberal speak I'm definitely a lifter.

Can I flip the argument around that the howard tax free super for over 60s was due to those close to retirement not bothering to save enough for themselves so felt entitled to see income taxes and other taxes they don't pay remain higher than required to subsidise the life styles they felt they deserved in retirement?  Australia has an over reliance on direct taxation, especially corporate and income taxes, when compared to other members of the OECD.

Sorting out the tax distortions around super, NG, CGT, allows other taxes to be cut.  Lower income and corporate taxes are what the Liberals say they're about.

So what do I want

* A sustainable retirement income system

* Meaningful tax reform to lower the distortions within the economy, especially our over investment in housing

* Better targeting of welfare, with education of people as to where they currently stand financially within society to help reach that goal

* Removal of the political interference of infrastructure spending, with a ban on any that does not generate an economic return.  A country with Govt and Import deficits cannot afford to spend money on non self liquidating infrastructure.

Would the above leave me better or worse off financially?  I have no idea, and it's not really an issue for me.  Do I believe doing the above would leave Australia in a far better competitive position?  I sure do, and that would benefit me, along with everyone else, over the long term.


----------



## sydboy007 (25 May 2015)

noco said:


> SP, I have read  that much rubbish coming from this quarter this week that I doubt whether a garbage truck would br big enough to cart it sll away..




Noco

all you do on this forum is make claims and never back them up

You don't even have the decency to say if you support Abbott purchasing a lot more JSFs, even when it's been made clear there are so many problems with the programme that it may nevr fly.

Even the US Govt has been starting to question whether to shut the programme down.

You enjoy criticising Labor, and on the odd occasion those criticism are well founded, but when you are presented with evidence that shows the Liberals are doing exactly the same thing, you dance around the circle and suppose, while the secret sits in the middle and knows.

What would you call the below Noco?  I'd propose a renaming to the Liberal Minerals  Council of NSW


----------



## noco (26 May 2015)

Labor stretches the truth once more and have, this time, been caught out by the OECD.

The Green/Labor socialists keep using the untruth propaganda that the Liberal Party are taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

Here is the truth as presented by the OECD.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-class-warriors/story-fnhulhjj-1227368854510

*There was more disappointing news for the hand-wringing industry last week when an OECD report found Australia to be a remarkably fair place.

The poor are getting richer and the rich are getting poorer while those in the middle are doing very nicely, thank you.

“Between 2007 and 2011, the income of the bottom 10 per cent increased by 2 per cent while incomes at the top declined by 1 per cent,” the OECD found.

“This pattern is very different from most OECD countries, where the bottom 10 per cent fared worst during the same period.”

Median net wealth in Australia has increased at a faster rate than wealth in the upper percentiles, leading the OECD to conclude “inequality at the top of the wealth distribution has receded”.

What will become of the unsold copies of Labor’s assistant Treasury spokesman Andrew Leigh’s book Battlers and Billionaires now its thesis has been knocked firmly on the head?

Leigh makes it plain on the back cover: rising inequality “risks cleaving us into two Australias, occupying fundamentally different worlds”.

Oh dear. Will Leigh’s publishers be forced to pulp the remaining stock? Or will Battlers and Billionaires, like Wayne Swan’s Postcode, gain cult status as an item of class-war kitsch to be put on ironic display alongside 1950s pulp science fiction? Yes children, they really did believe that one day cars would fly.*


----------



## boofhead (26 May 2015)

Do you have the OECD reference? Is the 2% total over that period? If so then inflation has put them in a worse position.


----------



## noco (26 May 2015)

boofhead said:


> Do you have the OECD reference? Is the 2% total over that period? If so then inflation has put them in a worse position.




The OECD was based on the period 2007/2011...I have no idea how inflation would make any affect.


*The poor are getting richer and the rich are getting poorer while those in the middle are doing very nicely, thank you.

“Between 2007 and 2011, the income of the bottom 10 per cent increased by 2 per cent while incomes at the top declined by 1 per cent,” the OECD found.

“This pattern is very different from most OECD countries, where the bottom 10 per cent fared worst during the same period.”*


----------



## noco (26 May 2015)

Bowen and Shorten have fudge their figures again according to Judith Sloan.

If Labor were re-elected who would want to increase their super while "PIGGY BANK ROBBERS" were hanging around?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ot-that-enticing/story-fnbkvnk7-1227368852134

*Labor is putting a figure of $14 billion across 10 years, implying a high degree of fudge in the figures. At best, the measures will yield about $1bn a year in the first three years of their implementation.*


----------



## noco (27 May 2015)

The union dominated Queensland state Green/Labor socialist government has lost the confidence of business and is it any wonder.

They have increased the car rego and drivers license fees twice that of inflation.

They have opened the doors to their communist dominated union mates giving the unions access to all personal public servants files.

What will be next?


http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...overnment-slides/story-fnihsps3-1227370426463

*THE State Government has failed to win over small business since the election, causing confidence to plummet to worrying new levels.

The latest Sensis data, collected six weeks after Labor took power, revealed businesses have little confidence in the policies of Queensland’s Palaszczuk Government, with the reading dropping 30 points in the March quarter.

A lack of understanding from the Government and rising costs to small business were the biggest bugbears in the sector.

Confidence about future prospects also plummeted, falling 18 points from a year ago to the second-lowest in the nation .*


----------



## Tisme (27 May 2015)

noco said:


> The union dominated Queensland state Green/Labor socialist government has lost the confidence of business and is it any wonder.
> 
> They have increased the car rego and drivers license fees twice that of inflation.
> 
> ...





Yeah well I just paid a kings ransom for one of my licences that the Newman Govt decided needed to almost triple in cost, on top of that I had to pay a CPA to audit the company and on top of that come June 1st I am legally liable for warranting services that must be performed under umbrella of a builder who can legally sabotage my works for fun and profit.

When he ran the place until recently, your  Mr Newman legislated so his developer family and mates can set up sham building companies and wield massive sticks against subcontractors ... you want to know why business confidence is down... it's tap roots are the LNP and it's monotasking governance for the benefit of the benefactor and matey few at the cost of the many.


----------



## noco (27 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yeah well I just paid a kings ransom for one of my licences that the Newman Govt decided needed to almost triple in cost, on top of that I had to pay a CPA to audit the company and on top of that come June 1st I am legally liable for warranting services that must be performed under umbrella of a builder who can legally sabotage my works for fun and profit.
> 
> When he ran the place until recently, your  Mr Newman legislated so his developer family and mates can set up sham building companies and wield massive sticks against subcontractors ... you want to know why business confidence is down... it's tap roots are the LNP and it's monotasking governance for the benefit of the benefactor and matey few at the cost of the many.





What license  are you referring to and do you have a link to back up your statement?


----------



## sydboy007 (27 May 2015)

So the Electricity regulator wises up to the fact that NSW electricity customers were bilked with the gold plating of the networks so has offered households a cost cut of $313 and small businesses up to $528 in savings.

Over the next 4 years NSW electricity customers can look forward to over $6B in savings from the regulator.

But wait, the Liberal Govt isn't happy with the determination and is taking the regulator to court to get the cost cuts reduced or eliminated.  Why would a Govt want to force the households and businesses they represent to pay more for their electricity?  Well it comes down to $$$ from the sale of the electricity assets.  The Govt want's the highest price it can get for the assets, and if that means basically forcing customers to pay more for their energy, well that's good in the Liberal view.

Will be interesting to see how the Liberal supporters try to justify this one.


----------



## Tisme (27 May 2015)

noco said:


> What license  are you referring to and do you have a link to back up your statement?





You can look up the QBCC site and see what's happening in your own backyard.


----------



## noco (27 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> You can look up the QBCC site and see what's happening in your own backyard.




That is still no help to me....You are the one who made the statement....It is up to you to prove what you are saying.


----------



## sydboy007 (27 May 2015)

noco said:


> That is still no help to me....You are the one who made the statement....It is up to you to prove what you are saying.




Noco

would you support QLD Labor following NSW Liberals in taking the AER to court to reduce or eliminate the price cuts they've scheduled for the next 4 years?

QLD households are expected to receive an average $34 reduction in their bills next financial year, while small business will receive a $53 benefit.

The flow of Dividends to the Govt will be reduced.  I know QLD has decide not to sell the Electricity assets, but don't you agree with the NSW Liberals in forcing households and business to pay more for their electricity to help prop up the budget, or do you believe QLD Labor is showing the way to go with accepting the AER's determination?


----------



## SirRumpole (27 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> So the Electricity regulator wises up to the fact that NSW electricity customers were bilked with the gold plating of the networks so has offered households a cost cut of $313 and small businesses up to $528 in savings.
> 
> Over the next 4 years NSW electricity customers can look forward to over $6B in savings from the regulator.
> 
> ...





We can only hope that Fred Nile will kybosh the whole shebang.


----------



## Tisme (28 May 2015)

noco said:


> That is still no help to me....You are the one who made the statement....It is up to you to prove what you are saying.




No that is Noco's rules. The burden of proof is on you to dispel. You are all too keen to take advices from the dregs of society columnists, but obviously can't be fagged spending anytime to be well read via source documents. I am not going to spoon feed you when it's obvious you have a totally blinkered view of domestic politics and would prefer to skew facts to suit your entrenched behaviours. 

My responses to your posts generally are rhetorically directed at you, but actually an anti venom for those that have open minds to the truth as experienced.


----------



## noco (30 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> No that is Noco's rules. The burden of proof is on you to dispel. You are all too keen to take advices from the dregs of society columnists, but obviously can't be fagged spending anytime to be well read via source documents. I am not going to spoon feed you when it's obvious you have a totally blinkered view of domestic politics and would prefer to skew facts to suit your entrenched behaviours.
> 
> My responses to your posts generally are rhetorically directed at you, but actually an anti venom for those that have open minds to the truth as experienced.




From your reply, your obviously don't have any answers.


----------



## sydboy007 (30 May 2015)

noco said:


> From your reply, your obviously don't have any answers.




Just wondering if you're going to come out and let us know if you support the NSW Liberals jacking up electricity prices by more than than the carbon tax, or if you support useless Labor in QLD for allowing electricity costs to fall?


----------



## trainspotter (30 May 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> We can only hope that Fred Nile will kybosh the whole shebang.




Post of the month right here. Managed to get every faction mentioned with style.


----------



## noco (30 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Just wondering if you're going to come out and let us know if you support the NSW Liberals jacking up electricity prices by more than than the carbon tax, or if you support useless Labor in QLD for allowing electricity costs to fall?




I am a Queenslander and my power bill for the past three months has been the highest bill ever thanks to the Green/Labor left wing socialist party.

NB...I have solar power also.


----------



## sydboy007 (31 May 2015)

noco said:


> I am a Queenslander and my power bill for the past three months has been the highest bill ever thanks to the Green/Labor left wing socialist party.
> 
> NB...I have solar power also.




Keep dancing around the question Noco.

NSW Liberals are fighting the AER to stop rather large price drops from July.  QLD Labor is allowing more modest price falls from July.  Do you think QLD Labor is treating voters better than the NSW Liberals?

My electricity bill has been the highest it has, and every year I pretty much say the same thing, even though my usage doesn't increase.  The technical term is inflation 

Just for interest sake, how is it the responsibility of the Greens and Labor that your electricity bill is so high?  No carbon tax anymore?  Could it be that some of the $45B in gold plating of the network has left us with an uncompetitive energy sector?


----------



## noco (31 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Keep dancing around the question Noco.
> 
> NSW Liberals are fighting the AER to stop rather large price drops from July.  QLD Labor is allowing more modest price falls from July.  Do you think QLD Labor is treating voters better than the NSW Liberals?
> 
> ...




What ever you say that makes you happy, but you don't show any proof of what you are saying...Probably because you are a rusted on Green/Labor socialist and then that all makes sense. 

As far as I am concerned I could not give a rats ar$e what happens in NSW.

The Qld  Green/Labor socialists just hit us with a massive increase in Rego and drivers license fees...more than double the rate of inflation.....These rates were frozen under the Newman Government for 3 years.

You still haven't answered me from way back as to how Palazczuk is going to pay back the Beattie/ Bligh debt of $80 billion they left during the mining boom and after they sold off some $18.5 billion of Queensland's assets.


----------



## sydboy007 (31 May 2015)

noco said:


> What ever you say that makes you happy, but you don't show any proof of what you are saying...Probably because you are a rusted on Green/Labor socialist and then that all makes sense.
> 
> As far as I am concerned I could not give a rats ar$e what happens in NSW.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/comment/premi...g-electricity-price-cuts-20150526-gh9m2a.html



> We now have a situation in which the Premier of NSW is taking legal action to prevent the state's households from saving up to $313 on their power bills.
> 
> The man elected to run this state has begun time-consuming, expensive proceedings to block small businesses from saving up to $528 on their energy costs.






> The Australian Energy Regulator's decision that Mr Baird is opposing will save NSW households $6.2 billion through lower electricity prices.






> It's not hard to understand Mr Baird's position. Having nominated power privatisation as his defining ambition, he now feels the sale price has to be as high as he can make it.




http://www.afr.com/news/politics/aer-decision-to-hit-qlds-bottom-line-20150430-1mwmsx



> The decision by the Australian Energy Regulator to slash the approved capital works programs of Queensland's state-owned electricity companies, Energex and Ergon Energy, will result in less dividend revenue flowing into the coffers of the Palaszczuk government.






> the regulator's preliminary decision on Thursday delivered a welcome reprieve for households which are expected to receive an average $34 reduction in their bills next financial year, while small business will receive a $53 benefit.






> Ergon Energy, which covers regional Queensland, had its capital expenditure reduced by $2.2 billion or 27 per cent, which will also deliver savings of $34 for households and $54 for small business.




So there's your proof.  As you can see the Liberals are out to ensure NSW energy users suffer from an electricity tax to pump the sale value of the electricity assets.  They're following the Howard way of assets price pumping.  At least QLD Labor are accepting the overspend from the last 5 years and not trying to slug users with even higher charges.

As to your question as to how QLD Labor will start paying down the debt.  I don't see how they will be able to.  40K worth of jobs from the Gladstone LNG plants going over the next 12 months.  Likely further coal mine closures due to continued falls in price.  Hopefully the AUD falls will further improve tourism levels, but they can't make up for the coming job losses.  To try and cut Govt spending too much when the private sector is already in an income recession would make things worse not better.  Unless you can import demand it's not possible for both Govt and private sectors to both increase savings.

That said, the Govt can ensure that any spending is well thought out.  No pork infrastructure like the Newman Govt wanted to do with Adani.  All infrastructure should be vetted by Infrastructure Australia and only funded if it shows a clear economic benefit.  It has to be self liquidating otherwise debt just increases.

If Newman was still in power what would he be doing to get the budget deficit under control?


----------



## trainspotter (31 May 2015)

The Killing Season ... or how to Host a Mystery Murder without the Mystery is coming to the ABC. A must see if you want to watch the treachery of the Labor Party at it's finest hour.



> In what is poised to be the most explosive political bloodletting on television since the last Labor leadership spill, Walkley-award-winning journalist Sarah Ferguson is set to reopen hostilities between former PMs Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd ”” in a new three-part interview series The Killing Season.
> 
> Provocatively named after the period favoured by politicians just before the winter or summer parliamentary breaks ”” the ABC program *(to premiere at 8.30pm, Tuesday, June 9)* has been likened to an episode of Game Of Thrones by the woman charged with pinning down and drawing out the brutal details of the Rudd-Gillard leadership overthrows.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/en...nite-hostilities/story-fni0b7jg-1227348324102

A Greek tragedy indeed !


----------



## SirRumpole (31 May 2015)

trainspotter said:


> The Killing Season ... or how to Host a Mystery Murder without the Mystery is coming to the ABC. A must see if you want to watch the treachery of the Labor Party at it's finest hour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm licking my lips ! Not because I hate Labor, but sometimes its good to see the internal machination of politics exposed.

I'm sure there is a lot of back biting in the Libs as well, as the current Cabinet leaks over citizenship have shown, not to mention the Howard-Costello manoeuvering, but the Libs seem more able to keep their brawls to themselves unfortunately.


----------



## noco (31 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/premi...g-electricity-price-cuts-20150526-gh9m2a.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But then after cheery picking the good bits you left out the bad bits of the Palazczuk government.

Energex delivered $406 million in dividends to the Queensland government in 2013-14, while Ergon Energy delivered $392 million. Both companies have returned dividends of $1.2 billion each over the past five years for a total of $2.4 billion.

The Palaszczuk government scrapped the former Newman government's $37 billion privatisation plans, which included the five state-owned electricity companies, saying it wanted to keep the profits generated in public ownership.

Opposition energy spokesman Andrew Powell said the AER determination would blow a hole in Labor's plans to pay down debt in the July budget.

"The centrepiece of Annastacia Palaszczuk​'s election campaign was to use profits from energy businesses to pay down debt and today's decision will mean money isn't there," Mr Power said.

*"This throws into question how they will manager to pay down debt without hurting Queenslanders."
*
Energy Minister Mark Baileysaid the AER determination was good news for customers, but they would ensure it does not impact on Ergon Energy's ability to respond to natural disasters such as cyclones.

I note you have made  no comment on the massive increase in Car registration and drivers license fees By the Palazczuk government which are considerably higher than NSW...They were too high under the Beattie/Bligh government hence Nenmans's reason for freezing the rates for 3 years.


----------



## noco (31 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/premi...g-electricity-price-cuts-20150526-gh9m2a.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now what were you saying about electricity prices in NSW will increase?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-...ices-cut-but-2500-power-jobs-could-go/6433758


*Electricity prices are set to drop in New South Wales but more than 2,500 power company jobs are likely to be cut to cover the costs.

The Australian Energy Regulator (AER), which sets the network charges on household power bills, has reined in the amount electricity providers can charge customers.

The ruling means prices are likely to fall by between 5 and 12 per cent for NSW households next year.

That equates to an average $313 annual saving on household bills in rural NSW, where Essential Energy operates the power network.

Annual household savings would be an average of $165 on Sydney's Ausgrid network, and $106 for households in the Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands and Illawarra, where Endeavour Energy operates the network.

    Consumers have a right to a safe and reliable service. Consumers also should not pay more than necessary.
    AER Chair Paula Conboy

According to the AER, the demand for electricity has fallen, meaning there is less strain on the network and therefore less investment required to provide a reliable supply of energy.*


----------



## sydboy007 (31 May 2015)

noco said:


> But then after cheery picking the good bits you left out the bad bits of the Palazczuk government.
> 
> Energex delivered $406 million in dividends to the Queensland government in 2013-14, while Ergon Energy delivered $392 million. Both companies have returned dividends of $1.2 billion each over the past five years for a total of $2.4 billion.
> 
> ...




So you'd prefer QLD followed the NSW Liberals and decided to privatise the electricity assets, spend a lot of money taking the AER to court, forcing any price reductions to be revoked so as to ensure the highest sale price and leaving energy users with what is effectively a privatisation tax.

Noco, where do you want the money to come from?  When spending is higher than income, and there's only so much spending you can cut, your options are either debt or increase income.  QLD has for a long time kept car rego and other Govt charges at much lower rates to NSW and VIC, which seems strange considering QLD is a much larger state in terms of landmass, so therefore a more costly state to run.  Cutting jobs will likely cause economic conditions to worsen faster, so I don't think mass public sector layoffs will do much to the budget bottom line over the medium term.

So what are your solutions to the debt problem in QLD?  If you can put $ figures to your proposals so we can see if they're realistic.

I'd suggest a broadly based land tax as a starting point.  It seems unfair to me that the roughly 5-6% of people who purchase a property each year are forced to fund a large chunk of the state budget.  A broadly based land tax would share the burden much more equitably, as well as providing a far more stable form of revenue.  Stamp Duty can change as much as 50% year to year, which makes budgeting rather difficult.

I'd also encourage QLD Labor to forget PPPs and to use their lower borrowing costs to build infrastructure that generates a positive economic return.  It would be very easy to sell infrastructure bonds to pension funds from around the world.  Why let private companies build infrastructure requiring inflated rates of returns with expensive tolls?  Much better to be able to set tolls based on breaking even over the life of the asset.

The Govt of QLD needs to start educating people that we are going to have a fall in our standard of living.  While the resource boom was underway we got a free pay rise for our exports.  Now we're giving up the pay rise and going back to a more historical norm.  There's no point trying to hide it.  The fall in Govt revenues for all states and the Federal Govt is plain to see.  The role of Govt should be ensuring those at the bottom of the economic ladder don't get too hurt from the coming structural adjustment that is needed.  We are very uncompetitive with an inflated AUD on top of inflated land / rents / wages / energy costs.

Hopefully the AUD will start to get to a  level that helps the tradeables sectors soon, so as wages wont need to carry too much of the weight in us regaining our economic competitiveness.  We prob need something like the wages accord again, and to be honest I think pensioners are going to have to step up too since the aged pension is already the largest budget expenditure and growing rapidly.

There are no easy answers.  Three word slogans wont benefit us.  The ToT has a long way yet to fall.  The mining CAPEX cliff is only just starting to get steep, with 2 or 3 years yet of detracting from economic growth.  Job losses are yet to start, but they're coming from late this year.  It's a gloomy future.  Liberals and Labor so far don't seem to want to face up to what is coming.  That is not good Australia.

I look forward to some constructive suggestions from you on how the Government can help to get us through the coming economic decline in the best way possible.


----------



## noco (31 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> So you'd prefer QLD followed the NSW Liberals and decided to privatise the electricity assets, spend a lot of money taking the AER to court, forcing any price reductions to be revoked so as to ensure the highest sale price and leaving energy users with what is effectively a privatisation tax.
> 
> Noco, where do you want the money to come from?  When spending is higher than income, and there's only so much spending you can cut, your options are either debt or increase income.  QLD has for a long time kept car rego and other Govt charges at much lower rates to NSW and VIC, which seems strange considering QLD is a much larger state in terms of landmass, so therefore a more costly state to run.  Cutting jobs will likely cause economic conditions to worsen faster, so I don't think mass public sector layoffs will do much to the budget bottom line over the medium term.
> 
> ...




Well, you have certainly lost your argument on the NSW electricity price rise...That you cannot deny.

Palaszczuk, accidentally won the state election on the unions and her rhetoric of "WE WON'T SELL YOUR ASSETS", together with some mistakes made by Campbell Newman.

Palaszczuk's only alternative is to sell assets to pay for the huge debt of $80 billion left by the Beattie/Bligh socialist left wing government...A debt that is costing Queensland tax payers $11 billion per year in interest....The other alternative is to increase taxes in all departments.....Something which Labor is well known for in past history.

You do not say how much the land tax will produce but I doubt it will be sufficient to pay bay back the $80 billion plus interest left by Beattie and Bligh.

At least Newman tried to show some honesty by taking to the election that the lease of assets was the major way of reducing the debt and huge interest bill.


----------



## sydboy007 (31 May 2015)

noco said:


> Well, you have certainly lost your argument on the NSW electricity price rise...That you cannot deny.
> 
> Palaszczuk, accidentally won the state election on the unions and her rhetoric of "WE WON'T SELL YOUR ASSETS", together with some mistakes made by Campbell Newman.
> 
> ...




So you'd be happy if QLD Labor added over $6B to electricity prices for the next 4 to 5 years then sold the assets at their inflated price.  Remember that the price inflation is likely to be an ongoing problem for QLD households and businesses.  How much extra do you think the NSW Liberals should get for their $6.3B privatisation tax?

I tried to engage with you Noco, but you're just too one eyed ogre to bother with anymore.  You're the kind of person at work who always winges but is never willing to put the effort into coming up with an answer to the problem.


----------



## noco (31 May 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> So you'd be happy if QLD Labor added over $6B to electricity prices for the next 4 to 5 years then sold the assets at their inflated price.  Remember that the price inflation is likely to be an ongoing problem for QLD households and businesses.  How much extra do you think the NSW Liberals should get for their $6.3B privatisation tax?
> 
> I tried to engage with you Noco, but you're just too one eyed ogre to bother with anymore.  You're the kind of person at work who always winges but is never willing to put the effort into coming up with an answer to the problem.




I am always happy but I can see you are a poor loser.

Better luck next time.


----------



## sydboy007 (1 June 2015)

noco said:


> Now what were you saying about electricity prices in NSW will increase?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-...ices-cut-but-2500-power-jobs-could-go/6433758
> 
> ...




As I've repeatedly said Noco, the NSW Liberal Govt is taking the AER to court to wind back the reduction in spending and therefore the reduction in electricity prices.  The main reason they are doing this is because the greater the profits the bigger the sale price from part privatisation.

As I said, the NSW Liberals are basically trying to push a privatisation tax onto electricity cosummers.  It's good to know you support them in doing this.


----------



## noco (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> As I've repeatedly said Noco, the NSW Liberal Govt is taking the AER to court to wind back the reduction in spending and therefore the reduction in electricity prices.  The main reason they are doing this is because the greater the profits the bigger the sale price from part privatisation.
> 
> As I said, the NSW Liberals are basically trying to push a privatisation tax onto electricity cosummers.  It's good to know you support them in doing this.




Why not if it means cheaper prices for electricity.

Palaszczuk has no say in Queensland as she must follow her masters in the CFMEU.....The unions are in control of Queensland and we are going down hill at a rate of knots.

No infrastructure plan for 12 months...no new ideas.....no idea how to pay back the $80 billion plus interest of $11 billion per year left by the previous Green/Labor socialist coalition.

Queensland has become stagnant....I think I had better shift to NSW.


----------



## sydboy007 (1 June 2015)

noco said:


> Why not if it means cheaper prices for electricity.
> 
> Palaszczuk has no say in Queensland as she must follow her masters in the CFMEU.....The unions are in control of Queensland and we are going down hill at a rate of knots.
> 
> ...




Can you explain to me how it causes cheaper eletrcitiy prices?

The AER has made a determination that will significantly lower electrciity prices in NSW.

The Govt, due to wanting to sell the assets at teh highest price is trying to get the AER decision recinded.  In this case the goal of privatisation is causing the Govt to go against the interests of energy users in NSW

You angry over the QLD Labor from increasing rego costs, but you are supportive of NSW Liberals increasng electricity charges even more.

So it sounds like you'd prefer to have higher electricity bills via privatisation in QLD than higher rego.

At least have some consistency in what you are angry about.  How can you criticise one Govt for raising rego but be happy another is raising electricity costs?


----------



## noco (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Can you explain to me how it causes cheaper eletrcitiy prices?
> 
> The AER has made a determination that will significantly lower electrciity prices in NSW.
> 
> ...




Sydboy, didn't you read the link below?

Electricity prices are going to fall in NSW.



*Electricity prices are set to drop in New South Wales but more than 2,500 power company jobs are likely to be cut to cover the costs.

The Australian Energy Regulator (AER), which sets the network charges on household power bills, has reined in the amount electricity providers can charge customers.

The ruling means prices are likely to fall by between 5 and 12 per cent for NSW households next year.

That equates to an average $313 annual saving on household bills in rural NSW, where Essential Energy operates the power network.

Annual household savings would be an average of $165 on Sydney's Ausgrid network, and $106 for households in the Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands and Illawarra, where Endeavour Energy operates the network.

Consumers have a right to a safe and reliable service. Consumers also should not pay more than necessary.
AER Chair Paula Conboy

According to the AER, the demand for electricity has fallen, meaning there is less strain on the network and therefore less investment required to provide a reliable supply of energy.
*

Do you support the Green/Labor socialist carbon tax, the mining tax and open borders because that is what will happen if the Green/Labor party are re-elected.


----------



## sydboy007 (1 June 2015)

noco said:


> Sydboy, didn't you read the link below?
> 
> Electricity prices are going to fall in NSW.
> 
> ...




Maybe I have to give you things in bullet form

* AER determination provides significant relief to NSW electricity customers

* NSW Liberal Govt announces it is taking the AER to court to block the price cuts

So if the NSW Liberals win their court case, how then will electricity prices fall?

We're talking up to a $6B privatisation tax.

I'd prefer a carbon tax over say inefficient stamp duties or increasng the GST.  A carbon tax is relatively efficient, low cost to administer.  A decent carbon tax could be used to cut income and corporate taxes.  Seems sensible to tax the use of a finite resource to ensure the most efficient use.  Coal / Oil / gas will all run out in the not too distant future.


----------



## sydboy007 (1 June 2015)

noco said:


> Sydboy, didn't you read the link below?
> 
> Electricity prices are going to fall in NSW.




http://www.businessspectator.com.au...urces-and-energy/energy-watchdog-feeling-heat



> > The immediate big challenge for the regulator and its new chair, Paula Conboy, lies in the trip to the tribunal (a wing of the Federal Court),
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> PIAC, along with the major energy users, is particularly irate that the AER changed its stance between its preliminary and final determinations for NSW networks, allowing an extra $2.3bn in capex and opex.




NSW Liberals getting chummy with Unions.  What do you think of that Noco?  So far the Folley opposition seems to be looking at the cost savings for households as outweighing potential job losses.  NSW Labor not doing as the Unions say.  Goes against everything you say about Labor eh.


----------



## noco (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> http://www.businessspectator.com.au...urces-and-energy/energy-watchdog-feeling-heat
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The unions have got Palszczuk by the short and curlies, that is for sure.....Palazczuk is their puppet on a string...When the unions say to her 'JUMP', SHE SAYS  HOW HIGH SIR.

LNP - Liberal National Party
35 mins ·

*Labor's laws before parliament mean the private details of Government employees will be provided to union bosses without their knowledge or consent.*

protectyourprivacy.com.au
LNP - Liberal National Party's photo.

This is what is happening in Queensland.


----------



## sydboy007 (1 June 2015)

noco said:


> The unions have got Palszczuk by the short and curlies, that is for sure.....Palazczuk is their puppet on a string...When the unions say to her 'JUMP', SHE SAYS  HOW HIGH SIR.
> 
> LNP - Liberal National Party
> 35 mins ·
> ...




I see you avoid the NSW Liberals siding with unions to try and force electricity users to pay higher prices.

I'm pretty sure if it was a NSW LAbor Govt doing this you'd have ye ol righteous indignation, burning brighter than your incense over rego costs.  But when it's a Liberal Govt, it's all good.  Not a peep of criticism.

You know vairous Govt agencies will have access to your metadata without a warrant and without your knowledge, with a cost adding up to hundreds of millions of dollars a year.  Brought to you by Federal Liberals.


----------



## noco (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> I see you avoid the NSW Liberals siding with unions to try and force electricity users to pay higher prices.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if it was a NSW LAbor Govt doing this you'd have ye ol righteous indignation, burning brighter than your incense over rego costs.  But when it's a Liberal Govt, it's all good.  Not a peep of criticism.
> 
> You know vairous Govt agencies will have access to your metadata without a warrant and without your knowledge, with a cost adding up to hundreds of millions of dollars a year.  Brought to you by Federal Liberals.




I don't hear you condemning the CFMEU for taking control of the Plaszczuk Labor socialist government......Labor stands for higher taxes and bigger spending..


----------



## sydboy007 (1 June 2015)

noco said:


> I don't hear you condemning the CFMEU for taking control of the Plaszczuk Labor socialist government......Labor stands for higher taxes and bigger spending..




If you had any understanding of the latest Federal budget you'd know the Abbott Govt stands for high spending and higher taxes.

Lets hope Plaszczuk teams up with the unions to push up your electricity prices.  I'm sure you'll be as happy for her as you are for Baird.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> If you had any understanding of the latest Federal budget you'd know the Abbott Govt stands for high spending and higher taxes.
> 
> Lets hope Plaszczuk teams up with the unions to push up your electricity prices.  I'm sure you'll be as happy for her as you are for Baird.




You're wasting your time with that bloke Syd.


----------



## noco (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> I see you avoid the NSW Liberals siding with unions to try and force electricity users to pay higher prices.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if it was a NSW LAbor Govt doing this you'd have ye ol righteous indignation, burning brighter than your incense over rego costs.  But when it's a Liberal Govt, it's all good.  Not a peep of criticism.
> 
> You know vairous Govt agencies will have access to your metadata without a warrant and without your knowledge, with a cost adding up to hundreds of millions of dollars a year.  Brought to you by Federal Liberals.





In comparison to the unions having access to personal data as opposed to the government with metadata, I know who I would trust and it certainly would not be the communist dominated CFMEU.

The meatdata will and should only be used for radical Muslims and criminals.


----------



## noco (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Keep dancing around the question Noco.
> 
> NSW Liberals are fighting the AER to stop rather large price drops from July.  QLD Labor is allowing more modest price falls from July.  Do you think QLD Labor is treating voters better than the NSW Liberals?
> 
> ...




My bill is higher because Ergon Energy has been forced by the Palaszczuk  government to reduce their credit of solar input into the grid.


----------



## noco (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/premi...g-electricity-price-cuts-20150526-gh9m2a.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well,well,well.....that information came from the mouth of Luke Foley, the leader of the Labor socialist left wing party closing allied with the unions.

According to Martin Ferguson, a minister in the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd, Foley lied during the election campaign and he would not hesitate to lie again...I consider him to be a most unreliable source.

*Premier Mike Baird should back down and stop fighting electricity price cuts

Date
    May 26, 2015 

    Comments 24

Luke Foley

    inShare
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    Email article
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    Reprints & permissions

Premier Mike Baird made privatisation of NSW electricity assets a defining policy.

Premier Mike Baird made privatisation of NSW electricity assets a defining policy. Photo: Peter Rae

Politics can contort otherwise sane men and women into some very strange positions. But none stranger than the knot Mike Baird has tied himself in thanks to a conflict entirely of his own creation.

We now have a situation in which the Premier of NSW is taking legal action to prevent the state's households from saving up to $313 on their power bills.

The man elected to run this state has begun time-consuming, expensive proceedings to block small businesses from saving up to $528 on their energy costs.
Opposition Leader Luke Foley.

Opposition Leader Luke Foley. Photo: Louise Kennerley

*


----------



## IFocus (1 June 2015)

noco said:


> The meatdata will and should only be used for radical Muslims and criminals.




You and others with the same lack of understanding and naive trust of governments (you do realise those commos will one day be in power with the same powers)don't seem to get this is actually the least of our problems and the collection of metadata has and will catch no one.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 June 2015)

> Well,well,well.....that information came from the mouth of Luke Foley, the leader of the Labor socialist left wing party closing allied with the unions.




I hardly think that's worse than a bunch of Right Wing facists closely allied with big business and greedy rent seekers a la Gina Reinhart.


----------



## sptrawler (1 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> If you had any understanding of the latest Federal budget you'd know the Abbott Govt stands for high spending and higher taxes.
> .




And Labor didn't do that?

We have a deficit ballooning out, and you think taxes don't have to be increased, pray tell us how?


----------



## Tisme (2 June 2015)

noco said:


> The meatdata will and should only be used for radical Muslims and criminals.




Is meatdata Halal Data?


----------



## SirRumpole (2 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> And Labor didn't do that?
> 
> We have a deficit ballooning out, and you think taxes don't have to be increased, pray tell us how?




You don't listen to anyone else do you ?

Syd and others have proposed various options for tax increases, they just happen to be ones you don't like.


----------



## dutchie (2 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> Is meatdata Halal Data?




Lol. Good one Tisme.


----------



## noco (2 June 2015)

3 months of inaction from the Palaszczuk Green/Labor left wing socialists and there will be little action for the remainder of the 3 years.....No confidence...no action..no infrastructure plan for 1 year .....no jobs except in the public service...housing construction down by 14%.....It used to be "QUEENSLAND THE SUNSHINE STATE", now there is a dark cloud hanging over us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz-q1lvWsFA


----------



## noco (2 June 2015)

I watch QT in parliament when ever possible but the Labor Party are a joke with the point scoring question they ask and they wonder why many of their questions are ruled out of order.

The Labor MPs carry on like a lot of school kids with their continuous interruption while a Liberal MP is trying to answer the question and the Labor people hate being reminded of their past.

Make sure you read the hundreds of comments of which 99% are derogatory against the Labor party.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tion-time-ruling/story-fnihslxi-1227378184862


----------



## sydboy007 (2 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> And Labor didn't do that?
> 
> We have a deficit ballooning out, and you think taxes don't have to be increased, pray tell us how?




Taxes do have to increase.  Noco is complaining that QLD Labor rasied rego prices, yet totally missed the point that the NSW Liberals want to block some of the proposed cuts to electricity prices to help increase the proceeds from privatisation.  It's basically a privatisation tax.  Electricity customers will end up paying far more than the Govt will get in the initial sale price.

What you needed to do was have a bit more of a read than just the last thing I said:

If you have a read of my posts #706 and #709 you'd have an answer to your questions

have you missed my long term argument that NG / CGT / Super tax reform has to be done to sort out the Govt revenue issues?  Before trying to increase current taxes, or introduce new ones, it would be better to stop the revenue bleed from various policies that distort the economy.

It was Abbott who went to the election promising of tax cuts with no new taxes.  Didn't Abbott also promise a cut to the deficit and increased spending.  Pray tell us how was that achieveable??


----------



## sydboy007 (2 June 2015)

noco said:


> In comparison to the unions having access to personal data as opposed to the government with metadata, I know who I would trust and it certainly would not be the communist dominated CFMEU.
> 
> The meatdata will and should only be used for radical Muslims and criminals.




So you missed all the reporting coming out from the USA where the various agencies using all the data collected from snooping were tracking down terrorists and criminals...

Only it turned out they were sharing peoples private pictures sent to their partners.

There's been plenty of examples where various Govt employees have abused their access to personal information.  Are you saying that the same abuse will never ever happen with metadata.  It's likely to be as much a criminal enterprise hacking into the goldmine of metadata as Govt abusing it anyway.  

But keep those political blinkers on and trust the Govt, at least while it's of a colour you support, because as we all know, they're here to help.  Have you ever thought what you attitude will be when Labor is elected again Federally.  Will you be so sanguine about metadata then?


----------



## noco (2 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> So you missed all the reporting coming out from the USA where the various agencies using all the data collected from snooping were tracking down terrorists and criminals...
> 
> Only it turned out they were sharing peoples private pictures sent to their partners.
> 
> ...




So that means you are quite happy to give the Muslim radicals and criminals a free reign...Good on you Sydboy....and don't forget the corrupt criminals in the CFMEU.


----------



## sydboy007 (2 June 2015)

noco said:


> So that means you are quite happy to give the Muslim radicals and criminals a free reign...Good on you Sydboy....and don't forget the corrupt criminals in the CFMEU.




Give me some solid evidence that metadata will in any way help with terrorism?

Germany has had similar laws for years and guess how useful they've been?  so close to 0 it's not worth mentioning.

You also seem to be ignorant of the fact that is is very easy to bypass the current metatdata laws.

* email - don't use an aussie ISP email system.  Could be as simple as using gmail.

* phone calls - use viber / skype / line etc.

* web sites - use a free proxy or pay for a vpn.  $40 a year and 5 devices covered for the entire terrorist cell

So the terrorist has no visible footprint within the current metadata laws by using gmail, making calls on the app line, and using a free proxy server or extremely cheap VPN to hide all their web access.

So remind me again why we're spending around $500M to set it up and over $100M a year to keep it running?

https://www.crikey.com.au/2015/03/1...debate-what-it-is-and-why-it’s-bad/?wpmp_tp=2



> In February 2015, a Dutch government agency found that data retention in the Netherlands had been unnecessary despite over four years of use. *A German parliament study concluded data retention in Germany had led to an increase in the crime clearance rate of 0.006%.*  Danish police, who have a much wider metadata and content data retention scheme, said the sheer amount of information was too unwieldy to use. Barack Obama’s handpicked NSA review panel found that mass surveillance by the NSA had not been necessary to stop any terrorist attacks in the United States. *Australian police forces and the Attorney-General’s Department officials themselves admitted they could produce no evidence beyond anecdotes about what benefit data retention would bring, and said metrics such as crime clearance rates wouldn’t ever show any benefit.*




I look forward to you providing evidence that metadata retention will help solve crime and protect us against terrorism, especially when the agencies calling for it were unable to provide any.


----------



## basilio (2 June 2015)

> I look forward to you providing evidence that metadata retention will help solve crime and protect us against terrorism, especially when the agencies calling for it were unable to provide any.  Sydboy 007




You want NOCO to provide *evidence* to back up a claim against the "scum ?

Seriously ?  Seriously !!

It will be cold day in Hades before that dream comes true ..


----------



## sydboy007 (2 June 2015)

basilio said:


> You want NOCO to provide *evidence* to back up a claim against the "scum ?
> 
> Seriously ?  Seriously !!
> 
> It will be cold day in Hades before that dream comes true ..




Call me an optimist.  He's always demanding it from others, so just hoping on the off chance he might do it once himself.


----------



## sydboy007 (2 June 2015)

noco said:


> So that means you are quite happy to give the Muslim radicals and criminals a free reign...Good on you Sydboy....and don't forget the corrupt criminals in the CFMEU.




October is coming but the Govt has no idea how data retention is supposed to work

http://www.afr.com/technology/data-...elcos-seeking-crucial-answers-20150601-ghcroy



> You might use a mobile phone supplied by Telstra, on Telstra's network, and billed and supported by Telstra. Or your mobile might have been arranged through a commission dealer that refers customers to a reseller that sources services from a sub-wholesaler that itself gets supply from an aggregator that has a master wholesale agreement with Optus.
> 
> In the first case, there is just one organisation involved in the service. It owns the network, contracts with the customer, provides and bills the service and holds all the data associated with the whole show. In the second, up to five different players are involved, each with direct access to only part of the big picture.
> 
> And the unanswered questions are exactly which of them must record and retain exactly what information, and exactly how much will Canberra contribute to their costs of doing so?






> "In many cases, there's clear overlap in the way the law applies, with lots of room for duplicated obligations," *Fotheringham muses about the irony of a pro-small-business government being so insensitive to the burden it has placed on junior telcos.*




Remind me again how this unworkable scheme is in the interest of tax payers, the telecommunications industry and it's customers?  Sounds like Brandis is still as clear as mud as to how it's supposed to be implemented or work.


----------



## noco (2 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> October is coming but the Govt has no idea how data retention is supposed to work
> 
> http://www.afr.com/technology/data-...elcos-seeking-crucial-answers-20150601-ghcroy
> 
> ...




It is working...19 arrests have been made of terrorists  with evil intentions.....you must behind with the latest news.


----------



## dutchie (3 June 2015)

Crikey - Don't tell me Kevin Rudd is a *misogynist* too?


http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...cal-intimidation/story-fn948wjf-1227380496283


----------



## dutchie (3 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> Crikey - Don't tell me Kevin Rudd is a *misogynist* too?
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...cal-intimidation/story-fn948wjf-1227380496283




Crikey - Don't tell me Julia Gillard is a *liar* too?


http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...cal-intimidation/story-fn948wjf-1227380496283


----------



## sydboy007 (3 June 2015)

noco said:


> It is working...19 arrests have been made of terrorists  with evil intentions.....you must behind with the latest news.




The metadata laws haven't come into force.  So ah, how could they have helped with the 19 arrests you talk of. 

Could you give me a link to those arrests please?


----------



## sydboy007 (3 June 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> We can only hope that Fred Nile will kybosh the whole shebang.




Seems the NSW Libs had done a deal with Nile

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mike-bair...proposed-ethics-class-changes-20150602-ghdt8z



> Premier Mike Baird is considering stripping any reference to the availability of ethics classes as an alternative to special religious education from school enrolment forms after being lobbied by faith groups.
> 
> Documents reveal Mr Baird's office pushed for changes to the enrolment form be made before the election, despite the education department proposing it happen just after the March 28 poll.
> 
> But the government denies it is part of a deal with Christian Democratic Party MP Fred Nile - an opponent of ethics classes - whose support the government needs to pass its electricity privatisation legislation.


----------



## noco (3 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> The metadata laws haven't come into force.  So ah, how could they have helped with the 19 arrests you talk of.
> 
> Could you give me a link to those arrests please?




I did not mention meta data as the result of the 19 arrests of radical Muslims...The 19 arrest were made with the Federal Police intelligence over the past 18 months and it was on a news broad cast......I have endeavored to verify it without luck to now but will continue to search.


----------



## sydboy007 (3 June 2015)

noco said:


> I did not mention meta data as the result of the 19 arrests of radical Muslims...The 19 arrest were made with the Federal Police intelligence over the past 18 months and it was on a news broad cast......I have endeavored to verify it without luck to now but will continue to search.




This is your response to my post about metadata rention.



> noco
> Re: Useless Labor Party
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by sydboy007  View Post
> ...




Your response



> It is working...19 arrests have been made of terrorists with evil intentions.....you must behind with the latest news.




So when you say "IT is working"  what were to referring to, since my post was referring to how the Govt still has not explained to the Telco industry just how the data retention policy is supposed to work.


----------



## noco (3 June 2015)

I shudder ti think just where Queensland will be 12 months time with the unions having been handed the keys to Parliament house.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...is_is_a_good_sign_for_the_queensland_economy/


----------



## sydboy007 (4 June 2015)

noco said:


> I shudder ti think just where Queensland will be 12 months time with the unions having been handed the keys to Parliament house.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...is_is_a_good_sign_for_the_queensland_economy/




As opposed to the business round a bout in the NSW Liberals





They must find it confusing to be speaking to someone working for Govt one day, a lobbyist the next.


----------



## noco (4 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> As opposed to the business round a bout in the NSW Liberals
> 
> View attachment 62860
> 
> ...





Another rotten egg exposed in the Palaszczuk Green/Labor left wing socialists government.....This bloke Williams was hand picked by the corrupt unions.

How many more might there be in the Queensland Labor Party?

I really don't think Palszczuk would be too worried if these bad eggs brought her minority government down.....It is all becoming too hard for her with no plan for infrastructure.....no ideas how to reduce the bad debt left by Beattie and Bligh...highest unemployment...business confidence down 17%...one scandal after another.....It is only a matter of time.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...7380458520?sv=5cb7f60979a5092761c06c722dd951c


----------



## noco (7 June 2015)

More jobs for Palaszczuk unions mates......Jobs for the boys.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/28348325/qld-govt-appoints-seven-department-heads/


----------



## Tink (7 June 2015)

Good on you, noco, for posting. 

As you can see in Vic, it has been disastrous with this Labor/Greens Govt.

Syd, we have had quite a few picked up in Melbourne, ready to attack certain events.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ack-was-imminent/story-fni0cx12-1227347584823


----------



## overlap (7 June 2015)

noco said:


> More jobs for Palaszczuk unions mates......Jobs for the boys.
> 
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/28348325/qld-govt-appoints-seven-department-heads/




Your lack of self awareness is quaint.

The names and context can be swapped between both major parties in any of these stories and still hold true. Journos only need one lot of body text and minor editing skills these days.

You don't seem to grasp that the Left and Right wings flap on the same bird.


----------



## sydboy007 (7 June 2015)

Tink said:


> Good on you, noco, for posting.
> 
> As you can see in Vic, it has been disastrous with this Labor/Greens Govt.
> 
> ...




* Abbott wants to shut down the CEFC - it helps get renewable infrastructure built.  Currently it has generated a $25M PROFIT.  Why would you want to shut down a Government investment agency that is successfully helping to build infrastructure at ZERO cost tot he budget?  I thought we had the infrastrucutre PM 

* Abbott and you support investing in a road tunnel that was forecast to generate a negative 55% return.  How does a country with $400B in debt and a forecast $35B deficit for the next financial year afford to invest in infrastructure that only causes debt to increase?  If infrastructure isn't self liquidating then all we're doing is stealing from the future.

* Those _quite a few picked up in Melbourne_ have been dealt with via existing laws.  The proposed data retention laws will at best catch the odd idiot, but are so easy to circumvent it's laughable.  It's insanity that we're adding over $1B in extra costs to the telecommunications industry to set the system up and run it for 2 to 3 years, and then the ongoing cost to run it will be in the order of $100-$200m a year.  The data stored is so valuable it will be the target of hackers from all over the world.  Metadata is your life.  Having access to a month or 2 of your metadata can show just about everything you do in your day to day life, who you come into contact with, where you go, how long you spend doing various activities, what the usual route is for you to get to and from work.

The germans are far better at invasive security that we are, owing to the level of knowledge they acquired from the STASI, and they saw their far more draconian data retention laws offer pretty much 0 in terms of solving crime.  So why are we saddling our already uncompetitive economy with yet more costs?


----------



## SirRumpole (7 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> * Those _quite a few picked up in Melbourne_ have been dealt with via existing laws.  The proposed data retention laws will at best catch the odd idiot, but are so easy to circumvent it's laughable.  It's insanity that we're adding over $1B in extra costs to the telecommunications industry to set the system up and run it for 2 to 3 years, and then the ongoing cost to run it will be in the order of $100-$200m a year.  The data stored is so valuable it will be the target of hackers from all over the world.  Metadata is your life.  Having access to a month or 2 of your metadata can show just about everything you do in your day to day life, who you come into contact with, where you go, how long you spend doing various activities, what the usual route is for you to get to and from work.
> 
> The germans are far better at invasive security that we are, owing to the level of knowledge they acquired from the STASI, and they saw their far more draconian data retention laws offer pretty much 0 in terms of solving crime.  So why are we saddling our already uncompetitive economy with yet more costs?




Maybe the answer is sunset legislation. Let it run for three years and it then automatically expires. The security agencies would need to show to Parliament that it is actually worth the cost.


----------



## drsmith (7 June 2015)

Labor finally comes to its senses on something,



> Budget 2015: Opposition backs Government bid to scrap $3b income tax cuts.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...nment-bid-to-scrap-3b-income-tax-cuts/6527386

The bid to scrap them was originally Labor's when they were in government.


----------



## dutchie (9 June 2015)

For the funniest tragedy of the century watch the The Killing Season on their ABC at 8.30 pm.

Unfortunately the making of it cost the Australian taxpayer dearly. Six years of spending, 50 years to pay it back.


----------



## noco (9 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> For the funniest tragedy of the century watch the The Killing Season on their ABC at 8.30 pm.
> 
> Unfortunately the making of it cost the Australian taxpayer dearly. Six years of spending, 50 years to pay it back.




It will be interesting to observe how the Labor Party will fair from the outcome.

I am a bit suspicious about the ABC behind it......The ABC may have a hidden agenda.


----------



## trainspotter (9 June 2015)

Costello has something to add to the debate:-



> Remember that when Rudd was elected he was, he claimed, an economic conservative. Yet in 2009 the government increased spending by nearly 13 per cent, an increase that had no precedent in modern economic management except for the height of the Whitlam mania.
> 
> Rudd said he did it to “save” Australia. Over two years the Rudd government lifted spending as a proportion of the economy by three full percentage points. We have never balanced a Budget since. It is still at that level today.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ni0cwl5-1227388737562?login=1#social-comments


----------



## noco (9 June 2015)

noco said:


> It will be interesting to observe how the Labor Party will fair from the outcome.
> 
> I am a bit suspicious about the ABC behind it......The ABC may have a hidden agenda.




I watched the ABC "KILLING SEASON" and as far as I am concerned,  this first episode was all about the justification of Rudd's extravaganza of GFC spending on useless school halls and pink bats.

It gives me the impression the ABC are trying to bolster up Labor economic credentials which were a disaster in 2008/2009

I hope the next episode improves.

The ABC  hidden agenda is being exposed.


----------



## noco (10 June 2015)

noco said:


> I watched the ABC "KILLING SEASON" and as far as I am concerned,  this first episode was all about the justification of Rudd's extravaganza of GFC spending on useless school halls and pink bats.
> 
> It gives me the impression the ABC are trying to bolster up Labor economic credentials which were a disaster in 2008/2009
> 
> ...




A couple of brief lines on the Tampa disaster.....A short word on how Kevin07 *"TRIED"*to turn back the boats.

Not a word about the 50,000 he let into the country which cost the tax payer over $11 billion and still counting with some 80% of those bludgers still on welfare and it all happened in the GFC.

Not a word about the $1 billion a week interest bill we are still paying on the money he borrowed.

Combet mentioned about the lives lost with the rushed through pink bat disaster but no mention of the 200 + house lost by fire as a result of Rudd's hare brain  scheme.....Not a word about the compensation which the tax payer has to fund for those lost lives and houses. 

Yes, the ABC in its usual manner has let Labor off the hook.


----------



## trainspotter (10 June 2015)

It's called "balanced" reporting noco. Don't want to be seen currying favour for either party now do we?


----------



## noco (10 June 2015)

trainspotter said:


> It's called "balanced" reporting noco. Don't want to be seen currying favour for either party now do we?




Janet Albrechtsen  sums up the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd era very nicely and Bill Shorten is  out of the same mold.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...390297717?sv=f59ad02367f41f4cf6028cf8e1db01a4


*Rudd, Gillard and Labor were solely focused on how to get power and how to keep it. Anthony Albanese may be right that the truly toxic personal hatreds of the Rudd-Gillard years are over.

But that misses the point of Labor’s troubles. That Bill Shorten leads Labor points to the party’s failure during and after those dismal years. Shorten has not overseen any real policy review of Labor’s record election loss in 2013.

The same political sin of hubris explains Shorten’s defining moment as Opposition Leader. In March this year, ABC radio’s Jon Faine asked Shorten what he believed in. Shorten has had ample time to prepare for this simple question. He’s been in politics since 2007, was a minister and has been Opposition Leader since September 2013. Yet all he could muster was a discombobulating piece of nothingness. “Everybody is somebody,” Shorten told Faine.

It harked back to that other pivotal moment in Shorten’s political career. Sky’s David Speers is an unflappable kind of guy. Yet even he looked bewildered when he asked Shorten whether he agreed with the position of Gillard about an issue of the day in April 2012. Shorten said: “I haven’t seen what she’s said, but let me say I support what she said.” Even by lowly political standards, it was so intellectually vacant it made headlines overseas.*


----------



## noco (11 June 2015)

Wake up Ms.Palaszczuk and stand the Police Minister Jo-Anne Miller while she is under investigation by the CCC for contacting  key witness in the Rick Williams corruption scandal.....She telephoned McLean the next day he blew the whistle on Williams.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...williams-scandal/story-fntuy59x-1227391960834

*It is understood an initial assessment of the allegations against Mr Williams identified areas that warranted further inquiry.

It is believed other potential witnesses have come *forward with information about the MP.

Meanwhile, Mr Mc*Lean told the CCC officers that he had felt “uncomfortable” about the timing of Ms Miller’s call, which was made on the morning his allegations against Mr Williams were revealed.*


----------



## Tisme (12 June 2015)

noco said:


> Wake up Ms.Palaszczuk and stand the Police Minister Jo-Anne Miller while she is under investigation by the CCC for contacting  key witness in the Rick Williams corruption scandal.....She telephoned McLean the next day he blew the whistle on Williams.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...williams-scandal/story-fntuy59x-1227391960834
> 
> ...




I wonder what a royal commission would find if it investigated the if the LNP had been approaching these "witnesses". After three years of overtly dodgey governance from the last mob, I can't see them changes horses mid stream. I see the latest revelation involves granting of development licences while in caretaker mode, to none other effectively than their individual selves


----------



## dutchie (15 June 2015)

Opposition immigration spokesman Richard Marles believes that refusal leaves the door “wide open” to the idea the government is handing wads of taxpayers’ cash to smugglers.

Is that like the $20 *bn* , and still counting,  that the last Labor government cost taxpayers and the $28bn that it will cost if Labor gets another 4 years in power (and goes back to their old system).


----------



## noco (15 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> Opposition immigration spokesman Richard Marles believes that refusal leaves the door “wide open” to the idea the government is handing wads of taxpayers’ cash to smugglers.
> 
> Is that like the $20 *bn* , and still counting,  that the last Labor government cost taxpayers and the $28bn that it will cost if Labor gets another 4 years in power (and goes back to their old system).




Shhhhh dutchie, we are not supposed to talk about that neither does the ABC, Insiders, QandA, GETUP, FACT CHECK, THE 7.30 REPORT, Media reoprt and LATELINE.....These are all controlled by the Green/Labor socialist left known as the Fabain society.
Control the media and you have control of the people.


----------



## noco (15 June 2015)

And here I thought Palaszczuk was a friend of the workers....More jobs being destroyed by Labor.
Maybe she and the AWU don't see eye to eye.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ces-council-boss/story-fnn8dlfs-1227397487365


----------



## trainspotter (15 June 2015)

noco said:


> Shhhhh dutchie, we are not supposed to talk about that neither does the ABC, Insiders, QandA, GETUP, FACT CHECK, THE 7.30 REPORT, Media reoprt and LATELINE.....These are all controlled by the Green/Labor socialist left known as the Fabain society.
> Control the media and you have control of the people.




George Orwell .... Animal Farm ... "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others". 

Take it easy noco .... There are no reds under the bed anymore. :1zhelp:


----------



## noco (16 June 2015)

trainspotter said:


> George Orwell .... Animal Farm ... "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
> 
> Take it easy noco .... There are no reds under the bed anymore. :1zhelp:




I am afraid you have become delusional on that point.....Communism is far from being dead and buried...It is very much alive here in Australia


----------



## trainspotter (16 June 2015)

noco said:


> I am afraid you have become delusional on that point.....Communism is far from being dead and buried...It is very much alive here in Australia




The last red under the bed in Australia was Julia Gillard hiding from Tim Mathieson dressed in a Batman outfit 

And here is the Fabian Society of Australia doing their damnedest to bring us good government:-

*'What makes Government Good?' with Senator Katy Gallagher*

 Monday, June 29, 2015 at 06:30 PM
 UniPub in Canberra, Australia

 46 people are going

The ACT Fabians are joined by newly appointed Senator Katy Gallagher, former Chief Minister of the ACT to discuss the processes, institutions, tips and tricks that make for good government (show all)

http://www.fabians.org.au/events


----------



## dutchie (16 June 2015)

Tony Burke:  WE DEMAND TO KNOW!

Reporter: Er, Didn't your government do the same thing.

Tony Burke: Sorry can't tell you - its a state secret...........


----------



## DB008 (16 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> Tony Burke:  WE DEMAND TO KNOW!
> 
> Reporter: Er, Didn't your government do the same thing.
> 
> Tony Burke: Sorry can't tell you - its a state secret...........




Yes, doesn't 24 hours make a difference.

I heard on the radio that during Monday's question time, the ALP were all over the Libs about payments in Indo to people smugglers. Today, not a peep.


----------



## dutchie (17 June 2015)

The Killing Season

Gillard - a nasty piece of work.


----------



## noco (17 June 2015)

dutchie said:


> The Killing Season
> 
> Gillard - a nasty piece of work.




Shorten is worse.


----------



## DB008 (21 June 2015)

Bizarre union video...


*'Bizarre' union video pulled from YouTube​*



> One of the country's biggest unions has been forced to pull a video off YouTube, after social media expressed shock and dismay over its suggestion that union members should reassert their "values" in the ALP over same-sex people, environmentalists and other members.
> 
> The South Australian branch of United Voice originally posted the clip in late May but removed it on Friday afternoon, with the national office quickly distancing itself from the production.






> On Twitter, people variously described it as "strange," bizarre", "awful" and with "shades of White Australia Policy".
> 
> United Voice represents about 120,000 workers in the hospitality, health care and aged care industries. It is generally seen as one of the more progressive unions - backing Labor deputy leader Tanya Plibersek's recent call for a binding vote on same-sex marriage.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/bizarre-union-video-pulled-from-youtube-20150619-ghsle8.html​


----------



## sptrawler (22 June 2015)

It looks as though Labor, are descending into their normal state of confusion again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...-fundamental-shift-in-schools-funding/6562562

For the last 8 years, they have been going on about 'middle class' welfare, now the issues are being addressed they oppose them.

The middle class don't trust them and the rest don't believe them.

I think they are wedging themselves, between a rock and a hard place, but they obviously enjoy being there.


----------



## Tisme (22 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It looks as though Labor, are descending into their normal state of confusion again.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...-fundamental-shift-in-schools-funding/6562562
> 
> ...





I'm pretty sure the Liberal Party's think tank are all for this. It will drive more born to rules into private schools where elites belong. Of course it will be sold as some sort of benefit to the poor, because the rich will directly subsidise the public schools their kids attend and share with the Oliver Twists of this world ... so egalitarian and generous of our civic leaders (the same ones who get money from our taxes to exist and grant themselves big salaries)


----------



## sptrawler (22 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm pretty sure the Liberal Party's think tank are all for this. It will drive more born to rules into private schools where elites belong. Of course it will be sold as some sort of benefit to the poor, because the rich will directly subsidise the public schools their kids attend and share with the Oliver Twists of this world ... so egalitarian and generous of our civic leaders (the same ones who get money from our taxes to exist and grant themselves big salaries)




I'm not saying whether it is fact or fiction, just Labor giving off the perception, of not knowing what they want or stand for.
Chaos management as usual, unfortunately.


----------



## noco (23 June 2015)

And the venom still flows thick and strong.......Love/hate sessions....betrayals.....back stabbing...you name it....It can only happen in the Labor Party which has brought this once great country of ours to the brink of ruin..

Gawd help us if Shorten ever got hold of the reigns. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...410128618?sv=d9956f89ff08f8172ec48e04b6d501ee

And here is one readers comment.

*Guest
17 minutes ago

The portrayal of Gillard by Shorten is nothing compared to the portrayal by Gillard on Australia when she jumped into bed with the Greens .

The Greens got to see themselves as something they are not and Gillard got power ,both to the detriment of this great country .

Now that's what I call betrayal .

I dispise Julia Gillard , never has there been a bigger blot on Australain politics , and she still try's to push the line she has always been the victim .

What is beyond belief is there are some who would still worship her , although there are many tyrants through out history that are admired by some right o the bitter end . Problem with Gillard ,she like Rudd will unashamedly suck off the tax payer for the rest of their pathetic self absorbed insignificant lives .*


----------



## noco (23 June 2015)

I watched question time in parliament yesterday and every time Labor MPs asked a question, they reminded me of IFocus icon the galah...... They all repeatedly  asked the same question over and over again....so boring.


----------



## Tisme (23 June 2015)

noco said:


> I watched question time in parliament yesterday and every time Labor MPs asked a question, they reminded me of IFocus icon the galah...... They all repeatedly  asked the same question over and over again....so boring.




No one party owns that tactic. It's been going on for a long long time.


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2015)

Labor again shoots itself in the foot backing the fuel excise tax, after ranting about it last year, they really are losing their way.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...crease-to-the-petrol-tax-20150623-ghv2r6.html

Labor in their announcement, didn't say they would revoke the fuel indexation, if they attain officeice

The general public won't like the indecision and obvious lack of direction.

The Greens must be sending a shiver up their spines, panic appears to be setting in.


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> The Greens must be sending a shiver up their spines, panic appears to be setting in.



That's what I thought too and posted words to that effect in the Bill Shorten thread,

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=24690&page=22&p=872809&viewfull=1#post872809


----------



## noco (26 June 2015)

There seems to be a sense of disunity in the Labor Party with the leaks appearing from the shadow cabinet on a regular basis.......Who is the "RAT"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...y-the-alp-divide/story-e6frg6z6-1227408618112


----------



## noco (29 June 2015)

Good news......Bill Shorten is glued to his seat thanks to Kevin Rudd.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sun/comments/shorten_failing_but_labor_stuck/


----------



## noco (30 June 2015)

noco said:


> Good news......Bill Shorten is glued to his seat thanks to Kevin Rudd.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sun/comments/shorten_failing_but_labor_stuck/





Is he?...well maybe not if the Labor Party change the goal posts again, Shorten might be short lived.

But the Labor Party are such disarray ATM, they are running all different directions....They don't know what they stand for and I guess it maybe because the Greens are starting to get under their skin.

I hope Shorten stays a leader of the Labor Party ......while he there Abbott is safe.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...420841320?sv=510443cef8e9c348b26d9b6603b92b06

*Rules designed to protect Bill Shorten, or any future Labor boss, from a leadership challenge have not been incorporated into the ALP’s revised national constitution. This leaves Mr Shorten, and any future leader, vulnerable to a challenge by a simple vote by MPs to change the caucus rules adopted in 2013. There is no recourse to the party’s national executive or conference, given the constitution is silent on this issue.

The party’s proposed constitution, obtained by The Australian, does not enshrine rules adopted by the Labor caucus in 2013 that *require a petition signed by 60 per cent of MPs to force a leadership vote in opposition, or 75 per cent in government.

The document, prepared by the ALP national rules committee and circulated by the party’s national secretariat, includes a new section outlining how the parliamentary leader is to be elected, but not how they can be removed. The revised constitution has been prepared for the party’s national conference in July. The document, as it currently stands, is in conflict with caucus rules adopted when Kevin Rudd returned to the prime ministership in 2013.*


----------



## sydboy007 (30 June 2015)

Oh my gosh.  Those corrupt Labor officials are now accepting BRIBES from the mafia.

Worse, they allowed a mafia head honcho to remain in the country after giving him a new visa rather than deporting him.  To pay back the favour he was caught red handed over one of the largest ecstasy import busts in ozzie history.

It's outrageous.  Heads should roll.

Oh err.  Sorry.  That's the Liberals who've been accepting blood money.  Please move along, nothing to see here.


----------



## drsmith (30 June 2015)

What we're seeing here is Labor on the run.

Not only has there been a retreat on their senate blockade of this government's budget measures, they have also retreated to internal argument over boat turn backs.


----------



## noco (30 June 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Oh my gosh.  Those corrupt Labor officials are now accepting BRIBES from the mafia.
> 
> Worse, they allowed a mafia head honcho to remain in the country after giving him a new visa rather than deporting him.  To pay back the favour he was caught red handed over one of the largest ecstasy import busts in ozzie history.
> 
> ...




Watch the next episode of Four Corners......It will be Labor's turn accepting blood money...there will be plenty to see there.


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2015)

It appears all is getting back to normal in Labor.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...n-rudds-leadership-rules-20150630-gi16w2.html

Kevin Rudd tried to change the over riding influence of the unions, by allowing the rank and file members, to have more say in the leadership.
This was to stop the union factions, knifing leaders in a midnight coup and having a skewed say in party decision making. from my understanding.

Everything back to normal, by the way is Craig Thomson good to go?


----------



## Tisme (30 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It appears all is getting back to normal in Labor.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...n-rudds-leadership-rules-20150630-gi16w2.html
> 
> ...




Craig should have married an investment banker ..,,, he could maybe retire on a hobby farm up north


----------



## noco (2 July 2015)

Labor grunts is  "UNIFIED PARTY" ??????.....How can they be unified when the right don't know what the left is doing and with a weak leader who does not know what on going on from one day to the next.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...424342025?sv=881aaf437415c75d204d9a62738db461

*The Australian has obtained a document presented to the meeting by Australian Manufacturing Workers Union NSW secretary Tim Ayres. He is a prominent Left union and faction leader who sits on the rules committee and the national executive.

While the NSW Left supports the rule change, other elements of the national Left are not yet fully signed up to the reform. It is possible that if the Left can’t agree on the rule change prior to conference, it will be jettisoned. Left delegates will meet this weekend at the Trades Hall in Sydney to discuss their position on a range of policy and structural issues.*

The Labor left wing will have a secret meeting without the right.....Very interesting but not funny.

J*ean-Pierre
3 hours ago

EXTRACT FROM THE DAILY TELEGRAPH :


"""The new Australian Border Force was officially launched by the Prime Minister at Parliament House yesterday.

But when Mr Shorten was asked about his view on the merger of customs and immigration, he had no idea what it was.

“We haven’t seen the propositions around that. I will wait to see details before I start commenting,’’ he said.

In an embarrassing blunder, Labor supported the creation of the Border Force when it was put before parliament last year."""

Most TV channels aired this "blunder" last night. But NOT the ABC....  Thanks to Chris Uhlmann.

*


----------



## noco (15 July 2015)

Who is the traitor in the Labor shadow cabinet?...They leaking like sieve.

Bill Boy, "IF" reelected to parliament in 2016 is intent on bring back the carbon tax to increase the cost of living on the poor......

Bill Boy the working families worst friend.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...442329338?sv=5569889644ed0a469bea17fe9c833772
*
The Prime Minister said the leaked document demonstrated Mr Shorten was “a carbon copy of Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard”, whose leaderships were undermined by rows over climate policy.

“Whether it’s fixed or floating, it’s still a tax. Only this time you’ve got the floating tax that will hit households, and then you’ve got this other tax that’s going to hit power stations and then you’ve got a third tax that’s going to hit the price of cars. All up it shows you can’t trust Labor not to be a pain in the hip pocket,” Mr Abbott told Sydney radio station 2GB.*


----------



## Tisme (15 July 2015)

noco said:


> Who is the traitor in the Labor shadow cabinet?...They leaking like sieve.
> 
> Bill Boy, "IF" reelected to parliament in 2016 is intent on bring back the carbon tax to increase the cost of living on the poor......
> 
> .[/B]




Just another opportunity for Tony Abbott to dogwhistle his legion of admirers.


----------



## drsmith (15 July 2015)

We've heard it before from Labor,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B14WKzvEXHk


----------



## Macquack (15 July 2015)

noco said:


> “Whether it’s fixed or floating, it’s still a tax. Only this time you’ve got the floating tax that will hit households, and then you’ve got this other tax that’s going to hit power stations and then you’ve got a third tax *that’s going to hit the price of cars*. All up it shows you can’t trust Labor not to be a pain in the hip pocket,” Mr Abbott told Sydney radio station 2GB.[/B]




Noco, can you please enlighten us on the impact on car prices, now that we NO LONGER WILL PRODUCE CARS IN AUSTRALIA?


----------



## noco (15 July 2015)

Macquack said:


> Noco, can you please enlighten us on the impact on car prices, now that we NO LONGER WILL PRODUCE CARS IN AUSTRALIA?




I will let you know when I get a reply from Dorothy Dix.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2015)

Macquack said:


> Noco, can you please enlighten us on the impact on car prices, now that we NO LONGER WILL PRODUCE CARS IN AUSTRALIA?




It won't affect the purchase price of a new car to any significant extent. It will however increase the running costs of every petrol and diesel powered car on the road.

That's the fuel excise I'm talking about by the way. The tax on petroleum fuels. You know, the one that the Coalition decided to increase, and continue to increase into the future, in the budget.

We have a tax on some carbon fuels now, just not all of them. We presently have an approximate $165 per tonne carbon tax on petroleum fuels officially known as "excise" but it's a tax in practice. That's quite a bit more than the $20 - $40 per tonne tax being suggested for other fuels. 

Part of the trouble with such a tax is that in order to work effectively, it needs to be at the same rate across competing fuels as the entire point is to promote lower emissions. As such, a $165 per tonne tax on one fuel is incompatible with a lower rate of tax on another, more polluting, fuel (coal). So rationally, we'd cut the fuel excise and apply the same rate across all fossil fuel types. Politicians aren't known for being rational however.


----------



## noco (16 July 2015)

Macquack said:


> Noco, can you please enlighten us on the impact on car prices, now that we NO LONGER WILL PRODUCE CARS IN AUSTRALIA?




All the facts you need to know are herewith...Listen to the U-Tube.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ropping-tax-plan/story-fnihsr9v-1227443149912

*Fact: global warming has paused or stopped, with no real rise in atmospheric temperature for some 18 years, according to authoritative satellite data from both the Remote Sensing Systems and the University of Alabama at Huntsville.

So why is Labor planning something so mad?

Blame two things. First, the death grip global warming now has over Labor, a party that needed this strident new religion to fill the gap in its soul caused by the death of socialism. And blame the weak leadership of Bill Shorten, a man of no convictions or authority who did not dare kill, bury and cremate the policy which most destroyed Labor last time.

But eventually every vacuum is filled.

Some Labor leaker has now stepped up to try to destroy a malignant policy that Shorten let fest

Fact: catastrophes predicted by global warming scientists have not occurred. Even the IPCC confirms we have not had worse or more cyclones, nor a worldwide increase in droughts.

The UN’s Food and Agriculture Organisation reports rising crop harvests over the past two decades. An Auckland University study found 80 per cent of low-lying islands such as Tuvalu and Kiribati are not drowning, but “have either remained about the same or, in fact, gotten larger”.[/B]*


----------



## noco (16 July 2015)

The Queensland state Labor government Treasurer is fiddling the books to make things look good.......IT IS CALLED CREATIVE ACCOUNTING and it could well and truly lead us down the Greek tube...What an idiot we now have in charge of the books in Queensland.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...s-into-giant-atm/story-e6frg6n6-1227443282300


----------



## Tisme (17 July 2015)

noco said:


> All the facts you need to know are herewith...Listen to the U-Tube.
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ropping-tax-plan/story-fnihsr9v-1227443149912
> ...



*

Still linking to Andrew Bolt. The guy has no credibility Noco, so why persist? He freely admits he filled a newspaper need to be a right wing advocate for no other reason than he needed a job; I doubt he even believes half the stuff he makes up or trolls from obscure basements.*


----------



## wayneL (17 July 2015)

Tisme said:


> Still linking to Andrew Bolt. The guy has no credibility Noco, so why persist? He freely admits he filled a newspaper need to be a right wing advocate for no other reason than he needed a job; I doubt he even believes half the stuff he makes up or trolls from obscure basements.




Playing the man rather than addressing the points Tisme?


----------



## noco (17 July 2015)

Tisme said:


> Still linking to Andrew Bolt. The guy has no credibility Noco, so why persist? He freely admits he filled a newspaper need to be a right wing advocate for no other reason than he needed a job; I doubt he even believes half the stuff he makes up or trolls from obscure basements.




Are you denying the facts he has stated are not correct?

You say Bolt has no credibility......On what grounds do you make that assertion?

Is it because it against you political thinking.

Please tell me which facts he has quoted are not true.


----------



## Tisme (17 July 2015)

noco said:


> Are you denying the facts he has stated are not correct?
> 
> You say Bolt has no credibility......On what grounds do you make that assertion?
> 
> ...




Nothing to do with politics, he's a reactionary who proclaims myths as fact and hardly gets anything right in hindsight.

Anyone can troll the internet for obscure opinions that fit the preconceived argument. It's like treating Wiki as factual, when anyone can modify it.

Wayne, I'm not playing any man, I'm just pointing out that Bolt has no credibility and shouldn't be used as truth of fact. The guy is a sideshow Bob where curious people go for self flagellation.


----------



## noco (17 July 2015)

Tisme said:


> Nothing to do with politics, he's a reactionary who proclaims myths as fact and hardly gets anything right in hindsight.
> 
> Anyone can troll the internet for obscure opinions that fit the preconceived argument. It's like treating Wiki as factual, when anyone can modify it.
> 
> Wayne, I'm not playing any man, I'm just pointing out that Bolt has no credibility and shouldn't be used as truth of fact. The guy is a sideshow Bob where curious people go for self flagellation.




What a lot of rot...There are no myths....describe to me what is not true and factual or is it just that you don't want to accept it.


----------



## Tisme (18 July 2015)

noco said:


> What a lot of rot...There are no myths....describe to me what is not true and factual or is it just that you don't want to accept it.




He's a clown that survives on fish wives


----------



## wayneL (18 July 2015)

Tisme said:


> Wayne, I'm not playing any man, I'm just pointing out that Bolt has no credibility and shouldn't be used as truth of fact. The guy is a sideshow Bob where curious people go for self flagellation.




Nobody has credibility. But that does not mean anyone cannot make, or highlight a point by somebody else. To absolutely disregard anything Bolt says just because his name is Bolt... or Monckton, or whatever, is fallacious and you're smart enough to know that.


----------



## noco (18 July 2015)

Tisme said:


> He's a clown that survives on fish wives




What sort of a reply is that.

I was hoping for some sensible comment to the point that 0ne or more facts from Bolt were no true.

You obviously don't have the answers so please be good enough to accept it as true.


----------



## Tisme (19 July 2015)

noco said:


> What sort of a reply is that.
> 
> I was hoping for some sensible comment to the point that 0ne or more facts from Bolt were no true.
> 
> You obviously don't have the answers so please be good enough to accept it as true.




You use of "obvious" is kind of a ironic. 

Unfortunately I can suffer many foolish things, but Bolt is a step too far. The way I was taught back in the stone ages was to send such people to Coventry. 

Bolt takes obscure facts and twists the intent and fabric to meet his own needs, knowing fully well he's not merely tilting at windmills, but deliberately and with calibration feeding haters with a daily dose of arsenic. He's a walking, talking Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't need the likes of Bolt to newsfeed me with his gospels. And I certainly won't be justifying his fiction and rare facts for the entertainment of people who have absolutely no intention of thinking independently and objectively. Poking fun at the clown on the otherhand ......


----------



## noco (19 July 2015)

Tisme said:


> You use of "obvious" is kind of a ironic.
> 
> Unfortunately I can suffer many foolish things, but Bolt is a step too far. The way I was taught back in the stone ages was to send such people to Coventry.
> 
> ...




What a sad tale you tell.

It is very obvious you cannot dispel the facts not being true so instead you attack his credibility.

Play the ball and not the man OK.


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2015)

Tisme,

To illustrate, let's take the dis-esteemed leader of the opposition. By your logic every single thing he says should be disregarded and subject to automatic derision.

But astonishingly, miraculously even, on very rare occasions he makes a good point.

I cant remember any off the top of my head, but they must exist.


----------



## Tisme (20 July 2015)

wayneL said:


> Tisme,
> 
> To illustrate, let's take the dis-esteemed leader of the opposition. By your logic every single thing he says should be disregarded and subject to automatic derision.
> 
> ...




Who are we talking about, that fella who has been compromised by his mother in law getting her Dame award? Tony stitched him up ages ago with manoeuvre. 

I need more volume on my Kreisler TV and a 1 pound, 2 shilling KTel Mumble Machine  © to hear what he is saying. I dare you to produce an attributable  "good point" and no looking at Wiki for the answer or buying a clue for him. I'd like to get one of those new fangled LCD televisions, but I swore I would wait until some politician with a brain took our parliament to a majority level of adult maturity ... I don't want to miss that moment and I have my betamax on the ready. 

Talking about neuter Bill is like to talking to the bloke who came second in a footrace. He isn't the important to the rankings and winnings of the victor. Segueing to Shorten doesn't excuse Andrew Bolt's deliberate ignorance and monotonous sinking of the boot into anything Labor that will delight Bolt's zombie followers.


----------



## noco (23 July 2015)

The Green/Labor left wing socialists are all over the place with their renewable energy and carbon tax policy...The right does not know what the left is doing......A united Labor Party?????....I don't think so....What a joke they are ATM. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...453226540?sv=34c088335b2176c38e1731b2489f7cb5

*The policy on renewables — *released two days before the party’s national conference — did not go to shadow cabinet, leaving some Labor MPs feeling ambushed* and angry, but was discussed by the leadership group. Mr Shorten wants voters to have a “clear choice’’ between Labor’s commitment to climate change and renewable energy, *arguing that despite the absence of policy detail it would deliver “less pollution, more jobs and downward pressure on electricity prices’’.*

*“A 50 per cent RET will put jobs and growth at risk,’’ she said. Modelling undertaken last year by Deloitte Access Economics showed the existing RET pushed up electricity prices, costing the economy up to $28 billion and a net loss of 5000 jobs, she said.

Environment Minister Greg Hunt, who described the renewables shift as a fivefold increase, said: “What we’re seeing today is a desperate diversion from Bill Shorten from Labor’s massive new carbon tax.’’.

Mr Butler argued that the 50 per cent target was “an ambitious but doable goal’’ and it was important “for governments not to pick winners in terms of different technologies’’.

Interviewed on Sky News, Mr Butler had difficulty explaining what an increase in renewables would mean for household electricity prices. He said all the modelling, including for the government’s review on the RET, showed “adding additional electricity puts downward pressure: that doesn’t mean there aren’t other price pressures’’. He said the review found wholesale power prices would be higher without the renewable energy target than they would be with the renewable energy target.

Greens acting leader senator Larissa Waters said Labor’s target of 50 per cent by 2030 was “better than the Abbott government’s ideological opposition to clean energy, but still way short of what’s necessary to limit dangerous global warming’’.

The Greens want a 90 per cent renewable energy target.

*


----------



## trainspotter (23 July 2015)

Taken from the Labor Party little red book ...







> Mr Shorten concedes Labor did not get the policy right in government, saying it underestimated the ability of people smugglers to exploit vulnerable people and entice them on to unsafe boats.
> 
> *"I do accept that mistakes were made,"* he said on Thursday.




http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...e-over-turnbacks/story-e6frfku9-1227453446628


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Taken from the Labor Party little red book ...
> 
> View attachment 63550
> 
> ...




So what ? It's a more saleable policy than more deaths at sea.


----------



## noco (23 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So what ? It's a more saleable policy than more deaths at sea.




Billy Boy is running $hit scared...Weasel words again.


----------



## trainspotter (23 July 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So what ? It's a more saleable policy than more deaths at sea.




Are you ... are you ... are you agreeing with Tony Abbott on this one?


----------



## dutchie (23 July 2015)

Mr Shorten concedes Labor did not get the policy right in government, saying it underestimated the ability of people smugglers to exploit vulnerable people and entice them on to unsafe boats.

"I do accept that mistakes were made," he said on Thursday.

A few of the mistakes Labor has made recently:

1. Put Rudd as leader
2. Put Gillard as leader
3. Put Rudd back as leader
4. Put Shorten as leader


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Are you ... are you ... are you agreeing with Tony Abbott on this one?




I thought the current Abbott policy was effectively Kevin Rudd's?


----------



## trainspotter (23 July 2015)

Tisme said:


> I thought the current Abbott policy was effectively Kevin Rudd's?




I thought Kevin Rudd's policy was effectively John Howard's?


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2015)

trainspotter said:


> I thought Kevin Rudd's policy was effectively John Howard's?




That too

Or maybe Mr Bowen's

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/110914508?searchTerm=boat people&searchLimits=


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Are you ... are you ... are you agreeing with Tony Abbott on this one?




Whatever, it's worked so Labor would be silly to go back to the bad old days.

Placate the Left with an increase in the refugee intake and Bob's your uncle.


----------



## dutchie (24 July 2015)

A lot of false hoo-ha about boat turnbacks. It will get through, so will Bill.

Labor knows it can't win an election without a turnback policy or at least appear so.
Labor knows it can't win an election with more leadership turnbacks.

Follow the Coalition, boys and girls - you know it's the right thing to do!  ha ha ha
(Muppets)


----------



## dutchie (25 July 2015)

Labor adopts Coalition turnback policy.


----------



## MrBurns (25 July 2015)

dutchie said:


> Labor adopts Coalition turnback policy.




Those creeps are so desperate they've been forced into being honest and adopting the correct policy.

It might seem tough love on the surface but the lives it's saved so far would be in the thousands.


----------



## Tisme (26 July 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Those creeps are so desperate they've been forced into being honest and adopting the correct policy.
> 
> It might seem tough love on the surface but the lives it's saved so far would be in the thousands.




Truth is we just don't know f lives are being lost or not. We seem to be satisfied in taking a leap of faith in the Abbott Govt....one that has been found wanting in the truth and accountability dept (yes they aren't unique)..

http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/the...blications/australian-border-deaths-database/


----------



## dutchie (26 July 2015)

How p#ss weak are Tanya Plibersek and Penny Wong. Not even game to vote, leaving others to do their work.

Definitely Labor leadership material.


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2015)

I'd go so far as to suggest instructing others to do their work.


----------



## Tisme (27 July 2015)

Agree with past two posts.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2015)

I see reform in the Labor Party, is a difficult process. A union group with 4,500 members can stop the whole reform process.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/29133907/wa-left-stymies-labor-reform/


----------



## explod (1 August 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I see reform in the Labor Party, is a difficult process. A union group with 4,500 members can stop the whole reform process.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/29133907/wa-left-stymies-labor-reform/




They are just workers trying to maintain wages,  conditions,  family and some sort of life.


----------



## explod (1 August 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I see reform in the Labor Party, is a difficult process. A union group with 4,500 members can stop the whole reform process.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/29133907/wa-left-stymies-labor-reform/




They are just workers trying to maintain wages,  conditions,  family and some sort of life.


----------



## wayneL (1 August 2015)

explod said:


> They are just workers trying to maintain wages,  conditions,  family and some sort of life.




I never figured you as a comedian plod LMAO


----------



## explod (1 August 2015)

wayneL said:


> I never figured you as a comedian plod LMAO




Any substantiation or facts ole Pal?


----------



## explod (1 August 2015)

wayneL said:


> I never figured you as a comedian plod LMAO




Any substantiation or facts ole Pal?


----------



## wayneL (1 August 2015)

Mate I pissed myself laughing. Isn't that what comedians try to do?


----------



## explod (1 August 2015)

wayneL said:


> Mate I pissed myself laughing. Isn't that what comedians try to do?




Probly why they wear baggy pants.


----------



## explod (1 August 2015)

wayneL said:


> Mate I pissed myself laughing. Isn't that what comedians try to do?




Is why they wear loose pants.


----------



## dutchie (5 August 2015)

Tony Burke has to go - for gross hypocrisy if nothing else.

Why does he think he is entitled to take his family for a business class holiday to Uluru at taxpayers expense, costing us $12,000?

Why does he think he is entitled to take a holiday to Europe at taxpayers expense, costing us $10,000 per day?

What a pathetic man.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2015)

Tony Burke is a serial offender and needs to do some explaining.


----------



## noco (5 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Tony Burke is a serial offender and needs to do some explaining.




Bill Shorten stated on ABC this morning, Tony Burke had used his expenses to take his family  on a holiday to Uluru within the guide lines and Eric Abetz is very naughty for raising the issue.

So if Bill says it is OK it must be OK.

Nothing to see here so please move on.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...470302467?sv=3d694e6d78c16cace650876e41ed5eb1

*Tony Burke had the option to ask bureaucrats to fly his family economy class on a taxpayer-funded holiday to Uluru, but chose instead to have them booked business class, costing $6500, about four times as much.

While the Labor frontbencher gave the impression government-funded travel choices for MPs’ family members were determined by official guidelines and automatically business class, the Finance Department yesterday confirmed that MPs had the right to ask that their spouse or children fly economy by the cheapest available fare.*


----------



## Tisme (5 August 2015)

dutchie said:


> Tony Burke has to go - for gross hypocrisy if nothing else.




What has hypocrisy got to do with the universal expensing of such things by politicians? You sound like it's a partisan problem ....Labor's, when it's actually us taxpayers who are on this side of the fence.


Labor didn't remove Bronwyn .... Newscorp and Tony Abbott did .... there wasn't any vote in parliament and last time I looked the LNP were in charge of who sits where and who has what portfolio and who works in the Dept of Finance.


----------



## dutchie (5 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> What has hypocrisy got to do with the universal expensing of such things by politicians? You sound like it's a partisan problem ....Labor's, when it's actually us taxpayers who are on this side of the fence.
> 
> 
> Labor didn't remove Bronwyn .... Newscorp and Tony Abbott did .... there wasn't any vote in parliament and last time I looked the LNP were in charge of who sits where and who has what portfolio and who works in the Dept of Finance.




Your right it's not hypocritical for Tony Burke to have a go at Bronwyn Bishop for abusing the entitlement system.

As noco said - Nothing to see here so please move on.


----------



## luutzu (5 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> What has hypocrisy got to do with the universal expensing of such things by politicians? You sound like it's a partisan problem ....Labor's, when it's actually us taxpayers who are on this side of the fence.
> 
> 
> Labor didn't remove Bronwyn .... Newscorp and Tony Abbott did .... there wasn't any vote in parliament and last time I looked the LNP were in charge of who sits where and who has what portfolio and who works in the Dept of Finance.





A good comedy from Eddie Murphy in the 1990s, where a small time conman figured he's in the wrong business and should hit the big time in Washington DC - by becoming a politician.

Like the part where his entire speech is a collection of catchprhases... 

Too bad these politicians and their antics exists in real life. Not so funny though.


----------



## Tisme (5 August 2015)

luutzu said:


> A good comedy from Eddie Murphy in the 1990s, where a small time conman figured he's in the wrong business and should hit the big time in Washington DC - by becoming a politician.
> 
> Like the part where his entire speech is a collection of catchprhases...
> 
> Too bad these politicians and their antics exists in real life. Not so funny though.






Funny. might get that out for another viewing


----------



## noco (6 August 2015)

*RUDDY HELL*

Our Kevvie is back in the lime light again.....I think he is looking over Billy's shoulder.

NB. Kevvie's comment....Don't think for for one moment that I am attacking Billy???????



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...471807351?sv=f62201c7f42013ffcead0c28764f65bb

*Former prime minister Kevin Rudd. ‘Union-based factions led by the faceless men have become the control agents of the party.’ Picture: Graham Crouch Source: News Corp Australia

Kevin Rudd has blasted Labor’s factional warlords and union *bosses for refusing to cede power to rank-and-file members at last month’s national conference, warning that if the party does not democratise, then its ability to win elections will be at risk.

The former prime minister has also taken a swipe at Julia Gillard, saying her prime ministership was beholden to union-based factional powerbrokers and represented the apogee of their destructive influence inside the party.

“Union-based factions led by the faceless men have become the control agents of the party,” Mr Rudd told The Australian.

“This became entrenched under Julia Gillard, who said yes to virtually all of their demands in *exchange for political power. That is why, when I returned to the leadership, I insisted on the rule change to radically reduce the power of factional thugs on the election of future leaders. They hated it; still do.”

Labor’s national conference, held almost a fortnight ago, failed to agree on reforming preselections or reducing union influence at conferences, despite calls from party and union elders to devolve power to grassroots members.

Mr Rudd said his remarks were not a criticism of Labor leader Bill Shorten but were aimed at the “faceless men” who “threaten” to destroy Labor’s viability as a political force. He wants Labor to abolish factions. “They are a cancer on the party and run the risk of *destroying its future,” he said.*


----------



## wayneL (6 August 2015)

The Labor once upon a time tried to pitch itself as the natural party of small/micro business.

Perhaps...

 ....or perhaps not.

While union thugs exert control they will only ever be the party of bludgers and brainless yuppies.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2015)

Of course, there are no factions in the Liberal Party are there ?


----------



## sydboy007 (6 August 2015)

note to Labor.  Just get your union lackeys onto a board position or 2 and follow the Liberal way of jobs for mates

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/luke-fole...bour-foreshore-authority-20150805-gisemz.html

The newly appointed chair of the state government's Sydney Harbour Foreshore Authority, Helen Coonan, co-chairs a major lobbying company which lists among its clients the developer of the Darling Harbour precinct owned by the foreshore authority.



> Ms Coonan's SHFA post sits uneasily with the spirit of the government's  2013 Public Service Commission "appointment standards" which seek to limit the eligibility of lobbyists to sit on government boards.
> 
> Clause 3 of those standards says lobbyists cannot sit on any government board that has "functions which relate to any matter on which the lobbyist has represented the interests of third parties in the last twelve months"




Maybe the strict letter of the standards, but the optics certainly don't look good.


----------



## drsmith (6 August 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/luke-fole...bour-foreshore-authority-20150805-gisemz.html
> 
> The newly appointed chair of the state government's Sydney Harbour Foreshore Authority, Helen Coonan, co-chairs a major lobbying company which lists among its clients the developer of the Darling Harbour precinct owned by the foreshore authority.



WTF does this have to do with the Labor Party, useless or otherwise ?


----------



## wayneL (6 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course, there are no factions in the Liberal Party are there ?




Of course there are. But that's off topic. This thread is about Labor buffoonery, not Coalition self harm.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> Funny. might get that out for another viewing




Just rewatch it and it's actually quite smart. It's a lot funnier now than when I was younger.

You've probably seen his "Coming to America" and the stand up "Delirious" right? Never laugh harder than when watching Delirious.


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2015)

luutzu said:


> Just rewatch it and it's actually quite smart. It's a lot funnier now than when I was younger.
> 
> You've probably seen his "Coming to America" and the stand up "Delirious" right? Never laugh harder than when watching Delirious.




I was planning a night in and drinking some Miller Drafts laced with Sambuca chasers and CS Cowboys. Tonight might be the night for the movie, luutzu


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2015)

Whats the corollary of the "Useless *Labor* Party" romping into govt based on the Morgan polling? 






> In late July L-NP support is down 3% to 46% cf. ALP 54% (up 3%) after Opposition Leader Bill Shorten sided with the Government on their ‘turning back the boats policy’ and committed Labor policy to ensure 50% of Australia’s energy needs are met with renewable energy by 2030. If a Federal Election were held now the ALP would win easily.


----------



## dutchie (7 August 2015)

What a hypocrite Tony Burke is.

He is willing to pay back $90 he claimed for the Robbie Williams concert he made the taxpayer pay for but non of the $12,000 for the Urulu family holiday extravagance. What a burk!

He has repaid claims 15 (or is 16) times. A slow learner. Bit of a pattern here.

Bronwyn may have been a P plater but he is definitely a L plater.


----------



## noco (17 August 2015)

Well, well, well. What do you know?

More hypocrisy from the Green/Labor left wing socialist and the trade unions.

Quite happy to employ people in the unions using 457 visas.

It it is time they stopped their campaign against the Chinese. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...486102165?sv=bd7e80c828f0d84530a1e77884138e5f

*Unions representing some of Australia’s lowest-paid workers have been caught out using imported labour, with United Voice employing nine people on 457 visas.

Two other unions — the Australian Education Union and the Shop Distributive and Allied Employee*s Association — have also hired staff on the temporary skilled work visas.

The industrial movement has long demonised the visas, including once labelling them as a “form of slavery’’. Unions are seeking to scuttle the China-Australian free-trade pact because it allows for the use of 457s on large-scale projects.

It seems the union hierarchy is making use of the visas themselves, however, to hire overseas workers to fill their own jobs.

The Immigration Department has revealed that “workplace relations adviser is the most frequently* sponsored occupation’’ among unions, “with the other sponsored occupations being copywriter, organisation and methods analyst, database administrator, and training and development professional’’.

Assistant Minister for Immig*ration and Border Protection Michaelia Cash told The Australian “the revelation that multiple unions have employed subclass 457 visa holders is an act of incredible hypocrisy and duplicity given the long-term campaign the union movement has waged against the 457 program’’.

Most of those on union-sponsored 457 visas are from Britain and the US, with workers also coming from India, The Netherlands, Canada and Singapore, answers* to a Senate inquiry into Australia’s temporary work visa programs revealed.

The average salary is $72,497, the minimum salary is $52,080 and the highest salary is $118,502.

“The occupations … targeted by unions employing overseas workers as workplace relations advisers and copywriters gives a clear insight into their double standards,’’ Senator Cash said.

“On the one hand, we have *unions employing foreign workers to do the frontline agitating of Australian unions.

“Equally ironic is the employment of copywriters as 457 workers directly employed by the union movement to help orchestrate the misleading and damaging campaign* against foreign labour provisions in the China-Australia free-trade agreement.’’

Unions argue the ChAFTA will allow Chinese workers to have free access to the Australian *labour market, and undercut wages and conditions, a claim the government denies.

Departmental records reveal that in the past five years, several unions, including from the Maritime Union of Australia and the Transport Workers Union, have sponsored 41 workers on 457 visas.

“It is time for the Labor oppos*ition and union movement more generally to stop their duplicitous nonsensical campaign against foreign workers,’’ Senator Cash said.

“Not since John McTernan was employed as a communications director on a 457 visa in Julia Gillard’s office, from where we witnessed a political campaign against 457 visas, have we seen such blatant hypocrisy from the union movement. I call on each union to provide evidence of the labour-market testing they undertook … to demonstrate there were no Australian workers able to undertake the roles.

“Australians would find it difficult to believe there are no Australians qualified to undertake the role of workplace relations adviser or copyrighter.”

In 2013, Transport Workers Union national secretary Tony Sheldon accused some employers importing 457 visa workers of a “form of slavery’’.

United Voice workers at Parliament House will take action today in their battle for fair pay, banning the cleaning of toilets.

*


----------



## Tisme (17 August 2015)

noco said:


> Well, well, well. What do you know?
> 
> More hypocrisy from the Green/Labor left wing socialist and the trade unions.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure $118,000 is tantamount to slavery, but paying people from overseas to rather simplistic jobs instead of locals smacks of the old cultural cringe factor I thought we left at the door when Paul Keating rose to power and championed Australians versus the world.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2015)

I see the British Labor party is getting back to basics, jobs, jobs, jobs.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-...s-warn-against-electing-jeremy-corbyn/6702084


The establishment isn't happy.

But unlike Shorten and the rest, he stands for something.


----------



## dutchie (18 August 2015)

Labor eager for union corruption to continue.

Labor eager for union officials to exploit workers.

Labor votes accordingly.


----------



## noco (18 August 2015)

dutchie said:


> Labor eager for union corruption to continue.
> 
> Labor eager for union officials to exploit workers.
> 
> Labor votes accordingly.




Yes,,Labor will do anything to close down the TURC. ...They are terrified of the outcome for Billy boy.


----------



## noco (21 August 2015)

Jennifer Oriel sums up the Green/Labor coalition tactics of distraction and diversion away from the real Labor issues....They champions at deflection  away from themselves. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rom-past-defeats/story-e6frg6zo-1227491944744

*Without the din of minority issues, the ALP sounds like an echo chamber of technocrats and tribalists fighting for the title of biggest loser at the next election. The campaign for gay marriage is a crucial distraction from Labor’s policy vacuity and union corruption, which is why it is championing from opposition what it wouldn’t countenance in office. The distraction tactic of the ALP and its press corps comrades shows that the triumph of truth over spin poses the greatest threat to Labor’s hope for electoral victory next year.

The royal commission investigation into union corruption and the ACTU’s campaign to oust Tony Abbott suggests the faceless men loathed by voters are still running the Labor Party, subordinating the needs of workers to factional technocrats.

The ALP is so desperate for a high-visibility victory to deflect public attention away from its no-policy platform and rampant corruption that it would deny Australians a plebiscite on marriage reform to get it.*


----------



## Tisme (22 August 2015)

noco said:


> Jennifer Oriel sums up the Green/Labor coalition tactics of distraction and diversion away from the real Labor issues....They champions at deflection  away from themselves.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rom-past-defeats/story-e6frg6zo-1227491944744
> ...




One thing Labor could never be accused of policy "vacuity ". If anything it's their overt emphasis and dogged pleonastic adhesion to policy that gets them into trouble.


----------



## Tink (24 August 2015)

*Bishop-basher Burke's big budget*

_The Labor MP who led the attack on Bronwyn Bishop over parliamentary entitlements has reportedly slugged taxpayers more than $4.5 million over seven years. 

On average, Labor frontbencher Tony Burke has claimed $60,000 in entitlements every month since July 2008.

NewsCorp reports that it includes close to $2.2 million for travel costs, including charter planes and VIP jets.

He has accrued almost $600,000 in overseas travel despite never serving as a foreign minister.

Mr Burke has also charged taxpayers $2.4 million in office and phone expenses.

A review into the entitlements system is expected to be finalised early next year_

------

*Martin Ferguson attacks level of union influence in Labor Party, backs royal commission's reforms*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-24/martin-ferguson-talks-union-influence-over-labor-party/6717642


----------



## noco (24 August 2015)

Tink said:


> *Bishop-basher Burke's big budget*
> 
> _The Labor MP who led the attack on Bronwyn Bishop over parliamentary entitlements has reportedly slugged taxpayers more than $4.5 million over seven years.
> 
> ...




Close your eyes please.

It's all OK for Burke to spend up big at tax payers expenses...he a Labor MP.

Move on...nothing to see here.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...l-for-tony-burke/story-e6frg90f-1227495760852

*Labor frontbencher Tony Burke has charged taxpayers close to $2.2 million for travel costs, including charter planes and flying on VIP jets, it's been reported.

An investigation by The Daily Telegraph has found that since mid-2008, the manager of opposition business and opposition finance spokesman had racked up almost $600,000 in overseas travel.

Mr Burke, who served as agriculture and environment minister in the Gillard and Rudd cabinets, is also a regular charter flight user, claiming more than $400,000 in domestic travel, News Corp reported on Monday.

The investigation found that the Sydney MP, who led the attack on former speaker Bronwyn Bishop's hiring of a helicopter to attend a Liberal Party fundraiser, claimed more than $1.1 million on domestic fares, travelling allowance, car costs and family travel.*


----------



## Tisme (24 August 2015)

Tink said:


> *Bishop-basher Burke's big budget*
> 
> _The Labor MP who led the attack on Bronwyn Bishop over parliamentary entitlements has reportedly slugged taxpayers more than $4.5 million over seven years.
> 
> ...




This sounds like nonsense to me. I think we'll find that story gets buried pretty quickly once the expenses of others is revealed. 

Newscorp is slipping so badly in circulation that it is almost in death throes, and it's solution is to plumb the depths for the bold headline, that is almost always "Labor" based. Most of my friends have ceased subscribing to the Courier Mail and a majority of them are LNP supporters ... there is just no balanced reporting and it's mainly immature reporting at that. My next door neighbour is an absolute LNP tragic and even he avidly watches the Bolt Report for the circus value rather than the dim hope it might actually have some meritorious value.

These stories are at best schlock to the public these days. Nothing surprises us and we tend not to believe them as anything but sour and vitriol.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> This sounds like nonsense to me. I think we'll find that story gets buried pretty quickly once the expenses of others is revealed.




Yes, it's all relative isn't it ?

$4 million sounds like, and is, a lot of money, but how does it compare to other Ministers in the current and past governments ?

What is pretty clear is that if all the Ministers rack up this sort of expenditure, then it's a big hit to the taxpayer.

I don't mind Ministers getting around to talk to the community, but I don't see why they have to be at it all the time. 

Rudd continually popped up all over the country, and now Abbott seems to be doing it as well.


----------



## Tisme (24 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, it's all relative isn't it ?
> 
> $4 million sounds like, and is, a lot of money, but how does it compare to other Ministers in the current and past governments ?
> 
> ...




Yes he was only the minister for agriculture, environment and immigration for 6-7 years. That wouldn't require as much travel as being the Speaker of the House.

The whole thing smacks of a joke, but the again I suspect the Labor Party are fueling this one so they can deny, then out the real spendthrifts; my bet is they smoke cigars or frolic in the surf.


----------



## dutchie (24 August 2015)

Tony Burke

Voted the biggest hypocrite in Australia.

Wanker


----------



## CanOz (24 August 2015)

Martin Ferguson attacks level of union influence in Labor Party

No chatter about this?


----------



## SirRumpole (24 August 2015)

CanOz said:


> Martin Ferguson attacks level of union influence in Labor Party
> 
> No chatter about this?




It will be on Four Corners tonight, so maybe after that.

Is it any worse than the degree of influence of big business in the Liberal Party ?

There have always been "faceless men" in both parties (Dyson Heydon ?), neither party cares about you or me, just where their money comes from.


----------



## dutchie (24 August 2015)

CanOz said:


> Martin Ferguson attacks level of union influence in Labor Party
> 
> No chatter about this?




Martin Ferguson will be expelled from the Australian Union Party.

His crime - telling the truth.


----------



## Tisme (25 August 2015)

I'm guessing the latest "correction" in the markets is once again the fault of Labor?


----------



## dutchie (25 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing the latest "correction" in the markets is once again the fault of Labor?




Of course!

(glad you have finally seen the light Tisme)


----------



## Tisme (25 August 2015)

dutchie said:


> Of course!
> 
> (glad you have finally seen the light Tisme)




 funny


----------



## noco (25 August 2015)

dutchie said:


> Martin Ferguson will be expelled from the Australian Union Party.
> 
> His crime - telling the truth.




Barnacle Bill is starting to realize he is a puppet to the unions and does not know what to do about it......Some Labor MPs wait every morning for their instructions from the unions.

No doubt Martin Ferguson is treading on thin ice and his future with the Labor Party certainly looks uncertain.

And yes dutchie, Martin Ferguson is probably the only one in the Labor Party who knows and tells the truth as he sees it.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e-union-movement/story-fnihslxi-1227497043327

*Martin Ferguson told the ABC’s Four Corners program that Labor leader Bill Shorten had the ability to “embrace change” but it wasn’t possible without getting full support from the shadow ministry.

Mr Ferguson went as far to say that Opposition MPs now “wait for the phone call from the trade union heavy to tell them what to do”.


“Because too many of that shadow ministry and the Caucus are almost as if they’re prisoners of the union movement. It’s the union movement now who funds individual candidates, it’s the union movement who has such a big say on the preselection of not just the senators where they always had a big say,” he said.

“Unions have significant influence over preselections for both Senate and Lower House seats in the Parliament.

“It’s almost as if they sit down now and divide the cake, you get that seat, we get that seat, left and right together and they dole out the prizes to their faithful.”

Contrary to his Labor colleagues, Mr Ferguson expressed his support for the Trade Union Royal Commission, saying it was an important step in helping reform the party and the trade union movement.*


----------



## noco (27 August 2015)

Can somebody tell me why the LUG Party are hell bent on destroying the CHAFTA?

What is in it for them to be telling such lies about it all with their adverse TV propaganda

It makes me want to throw up my weeties.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...campaign_against_the_china_deal_will_cost_us/

*

Greg Sheridan on Labor’s reckless pandering to a racist union campaign that puts Australia’s future in danger:

    Almost everything Labor says about the [China-Australia Free Trade Agreement] is untrue or distorts the facts....

    The misinformation is staggering. The clause in the FTA that says there is no need for prior labour market testing applies only to projects over $150 million. But in any event, as later clauses make abundantly clear, it is up to the Australian government in the context of any agreed project to set out what labour market testing is required… Not only that, any *Chinese worker coming for any project will still have to come in under the normal 457 visa process, which can be tightened at any time an Australian government wants.

    There are a couple of tiny classes of people not subject to any market testing, such as those receiving business visas. How could you possibly market test someone applying for a business visa?

    The whole Labor campaign is fearmongering and old-style protectionism… Labor’s retrograde campaign has already damaged Australia’s reputation in the eyes of investors and Chinese government officials… What they have never previously thought is that we are untrustworthy and capable of ratting on an agreement 10 years in the making…

    This is an appalling show from Shorten’s Labor Party, one of the most nationally irresponsible *episodes I have witnessed in the past quarter century.

Ed Gannon:

    THE Labor Party’s campaign to derail Australia’s trade agreement with China borders on treachery…

    For the sake of making some cheap political, and populist, points at the behest of its union mates, the federal Opposition threatens to wreck an agreement vital to this nation…

    China is now our biggest trade partner. And with the tariff reductions under this trade agreement, the export possibilities are huge, particularly for food.

    What makes this deal so special is that unlike the iron ore boom of the past decade, our supply of food is renewable… It also means extra income will flow into the pockets of millions, not just those lucky few who hold mining licenses.*

And our comrades in the LUG party want to know where the jobs are coming from when they are hell bent on destroying the prospects.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 August 2015)

So what is the success criteria for the China FTA ? A boost for farmers, traditionally LNP supporters, or an overall improvement in our terms of trade with China ?

If it's the former then it's a political deal, if it's the latter then it's fine if it happens but judging by our US FTA in which our trade deficit with the US has doubled then I doubt it will be to our overall economic advantage.


----------



## noco (27 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So what is the success criteria for the China FTA ? A boost for farmers, traditionally LNP supporters, or an overall improvement in our terms of trade with China ?
> 
> If it's the former then it's a political deal, if it's the latter then it's fine if it happens but judging by our US FTA in which our trade deficit with the US has doubled then I doubt it will be to our overall economic advantage.




Being the learned person you are purported to be, I thought you would have been well versed on the subject and would have done your research before commenting.

The question I asked is why is the LUG party so adversed to the CHAFTA and why are they telling such lies about it? ....You do not seem willing to give an answer.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 August 2015)

noco said:


> Being the learned person you are purported to be, I thought you would have been well versed on the subject and would have done your research before commenting.
> 
> The question I asked is why is the LUG party so adversed to the CHAFTA and why are they telling such lies about it? ....You do not seem willing to give an answer.




So being the learned person you purport to be you tell me if this deal is supposed to improve our balance of trade with China.

As for the Labor Party's view on it , it seems to be more the unions than the political wing of the ALP that is complaining. They have a right to be concerned about jobs and to take those views public.


----------



## noco (27 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So being the learned person you purport to be you tell me if this deal is supposed to improve our balance of trade with China.
> 
> As for the Labor Party's view on it , it seems to be more the unions than the political wing of the ALP that is complaining. They have a right to be concerned about jobs and to take those views public.




Yes, it has been designed improve the bottom line and I think you and your comrades should be patience to see the results...If it doesn't improve the bottom line, I will be the first to pass judgement.

I note you are blaming the unions for their vendetta on the CHAFTA but don't the unions control the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition.......The LUG party.....they are all tarred with the Fabian brush.

I would dearly love to see Barnacle Bill stand up to the unions and tell them to butt out....... but we all know how weak he is with the unions...he dare not step out of line because he is a weak leader.


----------



## noco (28 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So being the learned person you purport to be you tell me if this deal is supposed to improve our balance of trade with China.
> 
> *As for the Labor Party's view on it , it seems to be more the unions than the political wing of the ALP that is complaining. They have a right to be concerned about jobs and to take those views public.*



*

If Bob Hawke, Bob Carr and Simon Crean are urging the LUG Party to accept the CHAFTA it must be good.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...tells_bill_shortens_labor_to_back_china_deal/



It is frightening to see Labor now siding with a xenophobic union campaign against a trade deal that will create jobs and wealth. Bill Shorten’s Labor is a sick joke when compared to Bob Hawke’s:

    Bob Hawke has issued a stern warning to the Labor Party and the trade union movement not to *oppose the China-Australia Free-Trade Agreement, arguing it is in the national interest that it be adopted.

    “I am all in favour of it,” Mr Hawke told The Australian. “The party must not go backwards on this issue — the party and the trade union movement. Talk of opposing it is just absolutely against Australia’s best interests.”

    Mr Hawke, a former Labor prime minister and ACTU president, is at odds with the party, which has refused to support the agreement without substantial changes.

    The ACTU is mounting a *ferocious campaign against the trade deal and has called for it to be dumped. Bill Shorten has *described it as “a mess” and a “bad agreement"…

The China, Japan and South Korea free-trade agreements are worth a combined $24.4 billion to Australia and will create nearly 8000 new jobs.*


----------



## banco (29 August 2015)

noco said:


> Being the learned person you are purported to be, I thought you would have been well versed on the subject and would have done your research before commenting.
> 
> The question I asked is why is the LUG party so adversed to the CHAFTA and why are they telling such lies about it? ....You do not seem willing to give an answer.




I've read the text and can't see where the lies are.  Yes there'll be labour market testing but everyone knows that is easily gamed (that's why we've got tonnes of 457 visa IT workers at the same time as we've got heaps of IT workers who are unemployed).


----------



## Tisme (29 August 2015)

I was listening to Andrew Robb on radio broadcasting his hate for unions and the Labor party from China, yesterday. In an obvious act of arrogance towards his hosts, he was at pains to explain how the Chinese could not understand why there was domestic opposition to the terms of the agreement..... does he think the Chinese are so stupid not to understand what's going on?

It's that superiority waft that follows the Libs which got us into trouble with the Indonesians, Russians, etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> I was listening to Andrew Robb on radio broadcasting his hate for unions and the Labor party from China, yesterday. In an obvious act of arrogance towards his hosts, he was at pains to explain how the Chinese could not understand why there was domestic opposition to the terms of the agreement..... does he think the Chinese are so stupid not to understand what's going on?
> 
> It's that superiority waft that follows the Libs which got us into trouble with the Indonesians, Russians, etc.




If the Chinese are excited about the FTA, that obviously means they think it will be good for them. In bilateral FTA's, what is good for one side is not necessarily good for the other side.

Greater access to markets does not necessarily mean more sales. Subsidies given by large economies like China and the US can reduce our ability to compete in those markets.

Perhaps the expert noco can tell us what restrictions there are on China not to subsidise it's industries/farmers that compete with our products ?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2015)

I'll save noco the trouble of doing some research and engaging in a potentially red-faced (for him) discussion.

Chinese iron ore subsidies raise doubts about free trade agreement




> Federal Labor has challenged the Abbott government to clarify the terms of Australia's free trade agreement with China, after the survival prospects of Australian iron ore miners were further imperiled by China's decision to cut the tax rate imposed on its own iron ore miners.
> 
> Speaking after the Chinese State Council revealed it would reduce taxes on miners by 40 per cent, shadow foreign affairs minister Tanya Plibersek urged the government to publish the terms of the trade agreement that was struck four months ago.
> 
> ...


----------



## noco (29 August 2015)

banco said:


> I've read the text and can't see where the lies are.  Yes there'll be labour market testing but everyone knows that is easily gamed (that's why we've got tonnes of 457 visa IT workers at the same time as we've got heaps of IT workers who are unemployed).




But the bl**dy unions had no hesitation in bring in 41 union staff on 457 visas...Do you mean to tell me they could not find someone in Australia to fill those jobs......No hesitation here of robbing Aissie workers of employment.....But I guess it is OK for the unions to break protocol but nobody should.....

What a mob of hypocrites.


----------



## noco (29 August 2015)

Tisme said:


> I was listening to Andrew Robb on radio broadcasting his hate for unions and the Labor party from China, yesterday. In an obvious act of arrogance towards his hosts, he was at pains to explain how the Chinese could not understand why there was domestic opposition to the terms of the agreement..... does he think the Chinese are so stupid not to understand what's going on?
> 
> It's that superiority waft that follows the Libs which got us into trouble with the Indonesians, Russians, etc.




Um, I think the LUG Party got us into trouble with Indonesia when they suddenly stopped live meat exports....Do you remember Labor senator Ludwig made the decision on some left wing media report from the biased ABC or have you forgotten?

I think you will find the ban on exports to Russia was either a  UN or Nato decision because of their aggression in their neighboring country......The exports to Russia were only worth about $1.5 million per year....No big loss there.


----------



## noco (29 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I'll save noco the trouble of doing some research and engaging in a potentially red-faced (for him) discussion.
> 
> Chinese iron ore subsidies raise doubts about free trade agreement




Well, that is typical NIT PICKING by the LUG party just to make them look like they are holding the Government to account.....purely political point scoring by the well know Fabian Tanya Pleberzeck who is rapped up in her own importance...This a woman who cannot look some one in the eye when speaking.....Most of the time she speaks either with her eyes closed or blinking....

That statement is purely cherry picking on perhaps some minor trivial points but the overall picture is disregarded by the LUG party....What we lose on the Merry-go-rounds we will pick up on the Hurdie- Gurdies.......This is what FTA agreements are all about......One has to give and take a little and that is something the LUG Party do not know.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2015)

noco said:


> Well, that is typical NIT PICKING by the LUG party just to make them look like they are holding the Government to account.....purely political point scoring by the well know Fabian Tanya Pleberzeck who rapped up in her own importance...This a woman who cannot look some on in the eye when speaking.....Most of the time she speaks were her eyes close.
> 
> That statement is purely cherry picking on perhaps some minor trivial points but the overall picture is disregarded by the LUG party....What we lose on the Merry-go-rounds we will pick up on the Hurdie- Gurdies.......This is what FTA agreements are all about......One has to give and take a little and that is something the LUG Party do not know.




If you believe that I'm glad you are not running the country.

China can subsidise it's own industries whenever they like and price us out of the market.

They get less tariffs on their exports to us and we get sod all.

Free trade MFA.


----------



## noco (29 August 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> If you believe that I'm glad you are not running the country.
> 
> China can subsidise it's own industries whenever they like and price us out of the market.
> 
> ...




There you go again...Cherry picking on on iron ore and you turn into generalization....This is typical of your comrades in the LUG party.

I am pleased you and the LUG party are not running the country again after the disastrous 6 years 200/2013 under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd....They changed their leaders as often as  Shorten changed his underpants.

In 6 years they almost sent us down the gurgler and we are still paying a hefty price to keep up with Labor's under funded schemes like the NDIS and the NBN.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2015)

noco said:


> There you go again...Cherry picking on on iron ore and you turn into generalization....This is typical of your comrades in the LUG party.
> 
> I am pleased you and the LUG party are not running the country again after the disastrous 6 years 200/2013 under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd....They changed their leaders as often as  Shorten changed his underpants.
> 
> In 6 years they almost sent us down the gurgler and we are still paying a hefty price to keep up with Labor's under funded schemes like the NDIS and the NBN.




:topic


...


----------



## sydboy007 (29 August 2015)

noco said:


> Well, that is typical NIT PICKING by the LUG party just to make them look like they are holding the Government to account.....purely political point scoring by the well know Fabian Tanya Pleberzeck who is rapped up in her own importance...This a woman who cannot look some one in the eye when speaking.....Most of the time she speaks either with her eyes closed or blinking....
> 
> That statement is purely cherry picking on perhaps some minor trivial points but the overall picture is disregarded by the LUG party....What we lose on the Merry-go-rounds we will pick up on the Hurdie- Gurdies.......This is what FTA agreements are all about......One has to give and take a little and that is something the LUG Party do not know.




The Chinese subsidize aluminium production, concrete, petrol.  The new rules on coal imports have helped to protect local production.  Ship building receives large licks of govt support.  COMAC has received billions in support to produce an outdated small jet, with all sales pretty much being through forced / highly subsidised purchases by Chinese airlines.

The lack of rule of law in China is also a worry.  Too many Australians languish in Chinese prisons because locals found that an easier way to steal a business than buy them out at a fair price. IP theft is still rampant, and the Chinese Govt generally only tries to protect the local Champions rather than foreign company IP.

When I see made in china on a consumable product I put it back on the shelf.  If they don't care about poisoning each other, then they definitely wont care about poisoning a foreigner.

Why does the CHAFTA even have the ability to allow the importation of 457 visa workers without confirming there are no locals able to fulfill the requirements?  If as the Govt says this will not occur, why allow the possibility?

Many sectors in China will still be off limits to Australian investors.  Even before the CHAFTA the Chinese have had far greater access to invest here than Australians will get after it's signed.


----------



## noco (29 August 2015)

Chris Kenny sums up the LUG Party in one......They are not  friends of the working men and women in Australia.....They are more intent in destroying jobs.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-of-the-workers/story-fn8qlm5e-1227503341967

Proudly looking over his village, goes the old joke, a man boasts of how he built every picket fence, laid every paver and painted every roof. Yet he is not known as the village fencer, village paver or even the painter — no, his nickname stems from a single episode with a pig. (Bet you thought the ABC had forever scared me away from this territory.)

The point is a powerful one about how a single misstep can overshadow all of our achievements.

So it is with former trade minister Craig Emerson, who is remembered for his performance of “Whyalla wipe-out”. His bizarre *reworking of the Skyhooks hit Horror Movie was an attempt to mock concerns that Labor’s carbon tax would wipe the industrial town of Whyalla “off the map”.

The phrase had been used by Tony Abbott, but the then opposition leader was echoing the words of the Australian Workers Union South Australian boss Wayne Hanson. “Goodbye,” the unionist told Adelaide’s The Advertiser, “they (Port Pirie and Whyalla) will be off the map.”

So, in a Parliament House courtyard, Emerson stood in front of an ABC camera, danced awkwardly to the music and sang, “No Whyalla wipe-out there on my TV, no Whyalla wipe-out there on my TV, shocking me right out of my brain.” It was, indeed, shocking. The media zeitgeist, as usual, joined with Labor in laughing at Abbott’s warning.

After all, this was the day the carbon tax was first imposed and Whyalla was still there, so Abbott must have been a scaremonger or an idiot, or both.

At the time, Emerson’s mockery seemed — at least to me — to be a strange thing for any politician, let alone a Labor one, to do.

Here was a federal MP scoffing at a threat to the livelihoods of working families in regional centres. Here was a privileged member of the Left’s political class joking about the very real threat that people with calloused hands would lose their jobs. Here was Labor dancing to the fashionable, Twitter-driven sensibilities of the Greens at the expense of the ALP’s core constituency.

Whyalla has a relatively short, troubled but proud history as a steel town — a working town, a union town and a Labor town. Along with Port Pirie and Port Augusta it forms the Iron Triangle at the top of Spencer Gulf. Three small towns on the edge of the desert, clinging to the coast and a fragile existence in heavy industries such as smelting, engineering and coal-fired electricity generation. Remember, it was the AWU that worried about them being wiped off the map and about the same time the AWU’s national boss, Paul Howes, warned he would oppose the carbon tax if it cost just one job.

*During the past few years we have seen thousands of jobs shed in mining, manufacturing, smelting, aluminium and processing plants. A range of factors including global conditions, currency fluctuations and increased power prices because of the carbon tax and other carbon emissions policies have been at play.

The two coal-fired power stations operated at Port Augusta by Alinta will now close by 2018 — along with the mine at Leigh Creek that supplies them — leaving 400 people without work. They once supplied most of the state’s electricity but, having survived the carbon tax, are no longer viable thanks to subsidised wind farms, domestic solar and gas-fired stations.

This is how climate policy is supposed to work but there is a very direct cost: higher prices and fewer jobs.

Just down the road at Port Pirie jobs have dwindled through the years and uncertainty has surrounded the smelter that pro*cesses ore from Broken Hill. It has taken state government intervention to underwrite a $291 million smelter redevelopment to secure the future of Nyrstar’s operation.

At Whyalla, with iron ore miner Arrium closing a mine that used the port, up to 900 jobs have gone during the past year. “We absolutely fight every day for our survival,” a stoic Whyalla mayor, Jim Pollock, told Inquirer last week. “We have certainly made headlines for all the wrong reasons and every day is a challenge.”

The Iron Triangle also has been hit hard by the cancelled expansion and subsequent job cuts at the Olympic Dam mine and processing plant to the north.

“No doubt the reimposition of a carbon price would be a threat, we will have to monitor that,” Pollock says. “But we are always looking for opportunities, and we hope that many of our heavy engineering firms can do well out of the shipbuilding and submarine contracts in Adelaide. We are always fighting for our survival and betterment; we would never run up the white flag.”

So Whyalla has not been wiped out … yet. The crucial point is this: while the people of the Iron *Triangle — and those in working towns and suburbs across the country — continue this struggle for a good livelihood, Labor is still singing for the cameras in Canberra. Instead of helping to pass measures to fix the budget, it launches hypocritical attacks over MPs’ entitlements. Instead of vowing to protect workers by stamping out union corruption, it protects union bosses and undermines an inquiry by smearing the royal commissioner.

Instead of fighting for jobs, it fights against coalmines. Instead of encouraging economic growth, it stokes xenophobic fears about Chinese workers exploiting a free trade deal. Labor under Bill Shorten is dancing to the tune of the Greens, and turning its back on economic reform and people in places such as Whyalla. Under Shorten, Labor is promising more renewable energy and a reimposed carbon price — which will lead to more job *losses.

Emerson played a constructive role trying to forge consensus for action at this week’s National Reform Summit. It might have been his strongest contribution since working for Bob Hawke in the 1980s. But for all the Coalition’s missteps and failed advocacy (including Joe Hockey’s silly republic distraction on the day of the summit) it is Emerson’s ALP colleagues in parliament who have been the biggest handbrake on *reform.

Their instinct is to oppose fiscal repair and structural reform of education, health and welfare. The consequences of this reform denial will be substantial and will inflict the greatest pain on mainstream workers. Emerson’s “Whyalla wipe-out” still has a horrible resonance; Labor should never mock or *ignore the legitimate fears of working families.
*


----------



## dutchie (30 August 2015)

Shorten on CHAFTA:

We are against foreigners taking Australian jobs - the Government should do something.


Shorten on Victorian Police/Border Force operation:

We are against Australian Agencies checking on illegal foreigners working in Australia - the Government should do nothing.


----------



## sydboy007 (30 August 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten on CHAFTA:
> 
> We are against foreigners taking Australian jobs - the Government should do something.
> 
> ...




Ah, Abbott has said said the Border Force press release got it all wrong, so if Shorten is wrong on that issue then so is Abbott?

Can you explain to me why the Govt has provided the option to allow Chinese SOE to buy up or into businesses in Australia and then bring in workers on 457 visas without proving that there are no locals available to do the work.  the Govt says this will not occur, but if it's not going to happen why is the option there?  

Just a 15% stake is all that's required to give the possibility of flooding workers into Australia, with them showing their Chinese certification as being proof they're up to standard.


----------



## sptrawler (30 August 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten on CHAFTA:
> 
> We are against foreigners taking Australian jobs - the Government should do something.
> 
> ...




Yes Dutchie, that's what I find amusing.

Shorten doesn't know what he stands for.


----------



## noco (30 August 2015)

banco said:


> I've read the text and can't see where the lies are.  Yes there'll be labour market testing but everyone knows that is easily gamed (that's why we've got tonnes of 457 visa IT workers at the same time as we've got heaps of IT workers who are unemployed).




But is OK for the unions to bring in 41 union staff from overseas on 457 visas....Don't dare tell me those jobs could not have been filled by Australians...I would to see the research the unions did before going to 457 visas....Maybe they were from the Fabian Society Secret Service or KGB men.


----------



## sinner (30 August 2015)

I am breaking my moratorium on posting on the non stock related portions of ASF because on a good day it is a merry go round of stupidity and senility (with the last 20 or so posts proving my point).

However, this afternoon I read this lovely NewMatilda article, and I thought of a good catchphrase to describe the current situation. Good enough to temporarily break the moratorium over anyway.

"Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right, here I am, stuck."

https://newmatilda.com/2015/08/30/b...rce-then-condemns-it-when-it-all-goes-custard

Turns out old mate Shorten was all for it. In fact he criticised the operation because they announced it (you know, it should have been a more ninja style of spot check than Stasi style  ).



> Let us review the timeline, as shown by ABC journo Will Ockenden. At 10:14 am, the operation was announced. By 2:40 pm, the operation was cancelled. Bill Shorten only had a window of about four and a half hours to support Operation Fortitude before it was cancelled, under the crushing weight of its enormous unpopularity, and intrinsic awfulness.
> 
> However, once it was cancelled, Bill Shorten quickly tapped into public opinion with the trademark honesty and integrity we’ve come to expect from him...




[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=8StG4fFWHqg[/video]


----------



## noco (2 September 2015)

This must be so embarrassing for Barnacle Bill, here we have two Labor Premiers and the opposition Labor leader in the NSW Government all in line with the CHAFTA plus Bob Hawke, Bob Carr and Simon Crean.

I mean to say, what the hell is wrong with Bill Shorten and his union comrades?...He must be going insane or is he just being obstructive in his usual fashion?


https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/29410978/two-labor-premiers-back-china-trade-deal/


*Two Labor premiers back China trade deal

    AAP
    September 2, 2015, 6:34 am


Two Labor premiers and a state opposition leader are at odds with the federal ALP over the China free trade agreement.

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews and his South Australian counterpart Jay Weatherill have backed the deal as it stands, along with NSW opposition leader Luke Foley, The Australian reports.

But at the federal level Labor and the union movement have concerns about the deal paving the way for foreign workers to take Australian jobs.

AAP
Share*

I betcha, we don't hear any criticism from the ABC...It will fall on Mark Scott's death ears.


----------



## noco (2 September 2015)

Bill Shorten and his comrades in the trade unions are the odd men out.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._prepared_to_wreck_the_china_free_trade_deal/


----------



## dutchie (3 September 2015)

Best joke of the decade

Labor is giving up Canning so that Abbott stays as leader.

That's according to Mark Kenny's (Fairfax idiot) Labor sources.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...g-to-protect-tony-abbott-20150901-gjd1m5.html


Labor the biggest idiots in the world !

ha ha ha ha ha...........


----------



## sydboy007 (3 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> Best joke of the decade
> 
> Labor is giving up Canning so that Abbott stays as leader.
> 
> ...




Tis funny how we have an Abbott appointed RC judge who doesn't read emails.

Now we have an Abbot appointed Minister Dutton and his aides who also don't read emails.

Seems to be a pattern.  How much further does it permeate the GOvt one has to wonder.


----------



## noco (3 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Tis funny how we have an Abbott appointed RC judge who doesn't read emails.
> 
> Now we have an Abbot appointed Minister Dutton and his aides who also don't read emails.
> 
> Seems to be a pattern.  How much further does it permeate the GOvt one has to wonder.




And Shorten does not know the difference between Sub Way and 7 Eleven.

Shorten does not seem to know what is going on around him......I don't think he has caught up to speed with his  learned ALP statesmen who are all stacked against him on the CHAFTA.


----------



## sydboy007 (3 September 2015)

noco said:


> And Shorten does not know the difference between Sub Way and 7 Eleven.
> 
> Shorten does not seem to know what is going on around him......I don't think he has caught up to speed with his  learned ALP statesmen who are all stacked against him on the CHAFTA.




I've heared more than a few comments from my co workers about how they're not convinced about the CHAFTA, so I think the questions Labor is asking are the supposed benefits are similar to what voters are asking as well.

The AUS US FTA has benefited the yanks far more than us.  IP costs are higher.  PBS costs over $200M a year higher due to longer patents.

China gets a lot more market access in Australia then we get in return.


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> I've heared more than a few comments from my co workers about how they're not convinced about the CHAFTA, so I think the questions Labor is asking are the supposed benefits are similar to what voters are asking as well.
> 
> The AUS US FTA has benefited the yanks far more than us.  IP costs are higher.  PBS costs over $200M a year higher due to longer patents.
> 
> China gets a lot more market access in Australia then we get in return.




Bill Shorten was against any FTA with China even when he was leader of the AWU....So nothing has changed with this idiot.


----------



## sydboy007 (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> Bill Shorten was against any FTA with China even when he was leader of the AWU....So nothing has changed with this idiot.




So you are arguing that the CHAFTA as it current stands is perfect and that there are not some potential issues with it?

You're pretty much alone in that view.

I suppose if Labor were copying Abbott and saying they'll invest in infrastructure that loses money, hides info from Infrastructure Australia so they wont be able to critically analyse the investment, stretch the truth after giving IA a little bit of info and claim it's fully costed and IA approved, then you'd call them economic geniuses.

Tony Abbott, let me invest your tax money into infrastructure projects that will generate less than half your investment in economic returns.  Lets make the budget deficit bigger in return for a sugar hit to GDP growth now.  Who cares that future tax payers are loaded up with more debt.  My Govt benefits now and that's really what matters.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2015)

I don't think it's any coincidence that Andrew Robb who was once head of the National Farmers Federation is pushing CHAFTA so hard. There may very well be benefits to the farm sector from this agreement but the overall economy will pay for it by a flood of cheap Chinese imports which will kill off what's left of the manufacturing industry.

No doubt Andrew Robb will soon depart Parliament and accept his reward on the Boards of some mining or agricultural companies.


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think it's any coincidence that Andrew Robb who was once head of the National Farmers Federation is pushing CHAFTA so hard. There may very well be benefits to the farm sector from this agreement but the overall economy will pay for it by a flood of cheap Chinese imports which will kill off what's left of the manufacturing industry.
> 
> No doubt Andrew Robb will soon depart Parliament and accept his reward on the Boards of some mining or agricultural companies.




The unions killed off our manufacturing industry decades ago...Stop crying over spilled milk....The damage has been done and there is not a thing you can do about it.

We have had cheap goods coming in from China for years.


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> So you are arguing that the CHAFTA as it current stands is perfect and that there are not some potential issues with it?
> 
> You're pretty much alone in that view.




Alone???? Alone????

I don't think so.

I am with Daniel Andrews, Mike Foley, Jay Weatherall, Anna  Palszxzuk. Barr, Bob Hawke, Bob Carr, Simon Crean and Martin Fergusen.

Aren't they all good Labor Men with lots of common sense and are looking after the national interest?

Please correct if I am wrong.


----------



## sydboy007 (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> Alone???? Alone????
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> ...




Over a third of voters seem to have reservations over the CHAFTA.  

Interesting how you go from being critical of Labor to saying they see the light.

There's much to be examined with the CHAFTA, and it needs to be done before we see situations like with the US FTA where we're out of pocket to the tune of hundreds of millions a year.

But hey, Abbott is asking if you'd like some more sub economic infrastructure investment.  he knows a dud deal when he sees one.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> We have had cheap goods coming in from China for years.




Yes, and it's cr@p. 

If you want to trust your life to a Great Wall you deserve to die.


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Over a third of voters seem to have reservations over the CHAFTA.
> 
> Interesting how you go from being critical of Labor to saying they see the light.
> 
> ...




Yes, I am still critical of Labor but I agree with the true Labor men and women on this one off occasion with the CHAFTA.

So 66% of voters are quite happy with CHAFTA....I guess that leaves you and Sir Rumpole in the minority..

Don't forget we do live in a democracy.... For how much longer we do not know..... if the Fabian indoctrinated LUG party ever get back into power democracy will will thrown out the window..


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, and it's cr@p.
> 
> If you want to trust your life to a Great Wall you deserve to die.




Don't blame me Rumpy...Blame your corrupt unions comrades.....They are the ones who sent our jobs to China with all their excessive demands for higher wages and conditions....So what are your suggestions to get those jobs back and start manufacturing shoes, clothing, white goods, motor vehicles etc in Oztralya.

I think you have painted yourself into a corner.

Once again.....Stop crying over spilled milk.....it is all too late.


----------



## Macquack (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> Don't blame me Rumpy...Blame your corrupt unions comrades.....They are the ones who sent our jobs to China with all their excessive demands for higher wages and conditions....So what are your suggestions to get those jobs back and start manufacturing shoes, clothing, white goods, motor vehicles etc in Oztralya.
> 
> I think you have painted yourself into a corner.
> 
> Once again.....Stop crying over spilled milk.....it is all too late.




Noco, looks like you are back to full health, darn you are starting to annoy me again.

As you are the "white knight" of lower wages and third world conditions for Australian workers, I must ask you the question, did you ever give decent pensioner discounts in your plumbing business?


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

Macquack said:


> Noco, looks like you are back to full health, darn you are starting to annoy me again.
> 
> As you are the "white knight" of lower wages and third world conditions for Australian workers, I must ask you the question, did you ever give decent pensioner discounts in your plumbing business?




Geez Macquack, I apologize for annoying you...Perhaps you should take a Bex and a coke and lay down for a while.

I am not sure whether we had old age pensions in the 40's and 50's....I was out of the industry in the late 50's

Am I the "white knight" of lower wages and third world conditions for Australian workers?

Now lets analyse that question.

I could be the devils advocate but I don't think so....I could bring you back to reality that lower wages may never happen......Third World conditions???......Maybe, depending on whether the LUG party get back in in 2016.......They will bring back the carbon tax, tax the miners out of business and the unions will be allowed to go berserk as they are now doing in Victoria...Shorten will probably do more deals with the likes of Chiquita and Clean event to lower workers wages....Remember?...Those poor buggers had low wages and no penalty rates sprung on them thanks to barnacle Bill 

You see the Lug Party and the corrupt unions do not have the workers interest at heart nor do they have the respect for the National interest.....That has been demonstrated quite often over the past 8 years....They are too indoctrinated with the Fabian Society ideology who are hell bent on central control......Control the media first which they have been successful in with the ABC......Brain wash the naive with their propaganda, criticize the conservative government and discredit it's leader when ever possible, and that is occurring daily, and subtly convert to socialism...Now that IS a recipe for lower wages and third world conditions.

I know you will come back and disagree with me but I will most likely being talking to St Peter by the time you face the facts of what The LUG Party are trying to lead us into..


----------



## sydboy007 (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> Yes, I am still critical of Labor but I agree with the true Labor men and women on this one off occasion with the CHAFTA.
> 
> So 66% of voters are quite happy with CHAFTA....I guess that leaves you and Sir Rumpole in the minority..
> 
> Don't forget we do live in a democracy.... For how much longer we do not know..... if the Fabian indoctrinated LUG party ever get back into power democracy will will thrown out the window..




Do you see the contradictions of your criticism of Labor spending on say the roof bats and funding for school buildings, but then you praise Abbott for funding infrastructure projects that doesn't provide the economic growth that ensures the debt used to fund it is self liquidating over time.

i wonder if you truly drink the coalition koolaid and believe Abbott when he says the Grocery Code of conduct will save us from the ructions in China and Greece:



> look, the important thing is to do whatever we can to build a strong and prosperous economy locally, and again I get back to the Grocery Code of Conduct.
> 
> This is about ensuring that we have the strongest possible local businesses to supply the strongest possible local businesses.
> 
> We have a great supermarket system. That rests on the shoulders of great local suppliers and this is about ensuring that we continue to have very strong local suppliers, best possible product at the best possible price so that we get the best possible deal for consumers – and if we do that we will avoid the problems that we see overseas.




i wonder how many local suppliers will be wiped out by the CHAFTA, or just as likely driven into bankruptcy then bought on the cheap by Chinese backed companies that may or may not be able to ship over a bunch of workers to run the farms and export the product and profits back tot he motherland.

Do you believe it when Hockey says" There is no risk of recession in Australia"

or the equally fantastical claim by Hockey "(But) world growth would be lower if not for our leadership and determination last year to have a two per cent target and to roll out a global infrastructure initiative,"

Take off your ideological blinkers and use some critical thinking.


----------



## Tisme (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> Don't forget we do live in a democracy....




No we don't! Who told you that?

The tenets of democracy are a government elected by the majority of the population acting under a constitution that guarantees, basic civil rights / human rights, religious liberty, separation of church and state and separation of powers.

Straight up what part of the executive exhibits separation of powers from the legislative?

Even back in my primary school days of grade 7, we were taught about legislative, executive and judicial and even back then primary schoolers asked the obvious questions about hypocrisy. 

The trouble is that people think if it's not a Theocratic, Totalitarian or Authoritarian govt it must be a democracy.


----------



## Ijustnewit (8 September 2015)

Well Shorten and Labor want an increase of 10,000 refugees and $100 million given to the UN to help Europe pay for their intakes. It's a clear message to the Australians that don't want our Country overrun and taken advantage of by masses of economic refugees. Don't vote Labor back in , they will again open the floodgates again and bow to the UN.  As we are now seeing in Germany and Austria , once you start you can't shut the gate . 
Labor and the Greens would soon follow a similar plan if they were again back in charge.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 September 2015)

Ijustnewit said:


> Well Shorten and Labor want an increase of 10,000 refugees and $100 million given to the UN to help Europe pay for their intakes. It's a clear message to the Australians that don't want our Country overrun and taken advantage of by masses of economic refugees. Don't vote Labor back in , they will again open the floodgates again and bow to the UN.  As we are now seeing in Germany and Austria , once you start you can't shut the gate .
> Labor and the Greens would soon follow a similar plan if they were again back in charge.




10,000 isn't even a good footy crowd.


----------



## Ijustnewit (8 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> 10,000 isn't even a good footy crowd.



So how many are you willing to have under your roof ? And footy crowds pay an entrance fee .


----------



## sval62 (8 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> 10,000 isn't even a good footy crowd.




Maybe give them free membership to the Adelaide Crows,they would fit in well over there.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (8 September 2015)

sval62 said:


> Maybe give them free membership to the Adelaide Crows,they would fit in well over there.




You mean the team that regularly gets over 40,000 at a game?


----------



## noco (8 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> 10,000 isn't even a good footy crowd.




How much will it all cost the taxpayers and would  you willing to sacrifice from pay pay packet, pension or super.......Would you be willing to  house one or two under your own roof and prove to be a good Aussie citizen ?

We are limited with our finances as to what we can do and don't forget the legacy we inherited from the Green/Labor left wing socialist Party and the corrupt unions.

Well, I guess we could just keep borrowing more like the Labor did and let the next generation pay for it all.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> How much will it all cost the taxpayers and would  you willing to sacrifice from pay pay packet, pension or super.......Would you be willing to  house one or two under your own roof and prove to be a good Aussie citizen ?
> 
> We are limited with our finances as to what we can do and don't forget the legacy we inherited from the Green/Labor left wing socialist Party and the corrupt unions.
> 
> Well, I guess we could just keep borrowing more like the Labor did and let the next generation pay for it all.




How much does tax concessions for the rich on superannuation cost the taxpayer ?

How much does business tax avoidance cost the taxpayer ?


----------



## noco (8 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> How much does tax concessions for the rich on superannuation cost the taxpayer ?
> 
> How much does business tax avoidance cost the taxpayer ?





I don't know......you tell me?

I asked you  questions which you are reluctant to answer...

You passed it off with another question so I guess you would be reluctant to sacrifice anything yourself.

Talk the talk...walk the walk.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> I don't know......you tell me?
> 
> I asked you  questions which you are reluctant to answer...
> 
> ...




You asked a question you were reluctant to answer.

You asked "How much will an extra 10,000 refugees cost the taxpayer" ?

So, what's your answer ?

Walk the walk buddy.


----------



## drsmith (8 September 2015)

How much will it cost ?

Good question.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg.../dailytelegraph/comments/playing_moral_bingo/


----------



## sydboy007 (8 September 2015)

Is it wrong to say the Australian people bear some of the responsiblity for what's happening in the middle east.

The Howard Govt went in gung ho with the US and UK to depose Saddam.  That's lead to the fault lines we now see breaking up countries along old tribal lines.  Iraq is now 3 countries.

The US has to wear most of the blame, as it seems they trained the original ore of ISIS from disaffected Iraqui soldiers.

i doubt much of what's been happening in the region would be happening now if we'd stopped at Afghanistan, and spent the money wasted on the Iraq war on helping the Afghani's build a new nation.

We caccpeted aroudn 94,000 refugees over a 10 year period from the Vietnam war.  We survived.  We helped a lot of people who've become valued members of the Aussie way of life.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> We caccpeted aroudn 94,000 refugees over a 10 year period from the Vietnam war.  We survived.  We helped a lot of people who've become valued members of the Aussie way of life.




The Middle East may well be a different issue. Religious tensions and all that. The Vietnamese were fleeing a political war and didn't have an axe to grind against infidels.


----------



## noco (8 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> You asked a question you were reluctant to answer.
> 
> You asked "How much will an extra 10,000 refugees cost the taxpayer" ?
> 
> ...




Rumpy, don't beat around the bush......If you don't want to answer then say so.

Would you be prepared to sacrifice your pay and house one or more migrants?

I asked you first............ how much would it cost the country?


----------



## noco (8 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> How much will it cost ?
> 
> Good question.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg.../dailytelegraph/comments/playing_moral_bingo/




The LUG party could not care less what it costs.....$1 billion...$2 billion....so long as it makes the bottom line look worse for the government


----------



## noco (8 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Is it wrong to say the Australian people bear some of the responsiblity for what's happening in the middle east.
> 
> The Howard Govt went in gung ho with the US and UK to depose Saddam.  That's lead to the fault lines we now see breaking up countries along old tribal lines.  Iraq is now 3 countries.
> 
> ...




Sydboy, for once I have to agree with you, they should have left Saddam Husein to control Iraq and let them sort themselves out......It was the burning of some 500 oil wells in Kuwait by Iraq that drew the Yanks into conflict with Iraq.

Most of those countries really need to operate under a dictatorship.......They also should have left Colonel Gadaffi in Libya but Rudd insisted that he must go.


----------



## drsmith (8 September 2015)

If Saddam hadn't barged into Kuwait, he would have been left to his own devices.

The trouble with dictators though is that they can get overly drunk with power and hence too big for their own boots and Saddam was a classic case.


----------



## sydboy007 (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> Sydboy, for once I have to agree with you, they should have left Saddam Husein to control Iraq and let them sort themselves out......It was the burning of some 500 oil wells in Kuwait by Iraq that drew the Yanks into conflict with Iraq.
> 
> Most of those countries really need to operate under a dictatorship.......They also should have left Colonel Gadaffi in Libya but Rudd insisted that he must go.




Oh my. I never thought I'd hear you criticise your messiah Howard. Just think of the billions Australia had wasted being stuck in Iraq and now Syria. Think of the soldiers who had to endure what was an unjust invasion, occupation, and now civil war.

You hold labor responsible for the pink bat deaths. How many deaths is Howard at least partly responsible for?


----------



## sydboy007 (8 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> If Saddam hadn't barged into Kuwait, he would have been left to his own devices.
> 
> The trouble with dictators though is that they can get overly drunk with power and hence too big for their own boots and Saddam was a classic case.




Oh really. Remind me of the timeline from the Kuwait invasion to the overthrowof Saddam.

Oh and remind me of the legal justification for the invasion of Iraq that wag provided to the Australian public,  and how accurate that justification was.


----------



## noco (8 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Oh my. I never thought I'd hear you criticise your messiah Howard. Just think of the billions Australia had wasted being stuck in Iraq and now Syria. Think of the soldiers who had to endure what was an unjust invasion, occupation, and now civil war.
> 
> You hold labor responsible for the pink bat deaths. How many deaths is Howard at least partly responsible for?




Howard was not responsible for any deaths.......The involvement in Iraq was a bi-partisan event with the then Labor Party in opposition.

You want to blame Howard but you do mention Rudd's  decision to go along with killing Colonel Gaddaffi.


----------



## sydboy007 (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> Howard was not responsible for any deaths.......The involvement in Iraq was a bi-partisan event with the then Labor Party in opposition.
> 
> You want to blame Howard but you do mention Rudd's  decision to go along with killing Colonel Gaddaffi.




I remember the marches all over Australia in protest of Australian troops being sent to Iraq. It was done against the will of the people!

[video=youtube_share;JfpIJJCtjK0]http://youtu.be/JfpIJJCtjK0[/video]


----------



## noco (10 September 2015)

The way Bill Shorten has become glued to the CFMEU, I am starting to foresee an implosion in the Labor Party in the near future....At the present time, and while the polls are favoring the LUG party, the rusted on LUG people are afraid to speak out for fear of being expelled but watch the polls go further south soon for Bill and the Labor Party and then sparks will begin to fly.

Shorten is up against a Rhode scholar, a pugilist and a bloke with determination where as Shorten is an ex union hack with very little brain to think with past his nose.

Anybody who takes Abbott for a fool is no mug. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...520065185?sv=f9e7dcf6424e8012063fc994ae3797d4

*To the disgust of Labor members who pride themselves on the economic reform legacy of the Hawke-Keating years, the party has slumped into the depths of political expediency and short-term thinking. Its behaviour is the antithesis of John F. Kennedy’s philosophy — it no longer asks what it can do for the country but asks how it can turn political and economic issues to its own ends, even at the expense of the country’s interest.

The prime examples this week have been the failed Senate motion to call on the Governor-General to sack trade union royal commissioner Dyson Heydon and the destructive campaign against the China free-trade agreement. In both cases, Bill Shorten and his team have been led by the nose by their union masters, especially the militant Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union.*

The embarrassing Senate motion was defeated because crossbenchers John Madigan, Nick Xenophon, Bob Day and Ricky Muir had the sense to join the Abbott government and oppose it. The Greens and independent senators Jacqui Lambie and Glenn Lazarus foolishly lined up with Labor. Had the motion succeeded, Sir Peter Cosgrove undoubtedly would have ignored it. There is no reason to think that he would have abandoned the precedent — sacrosanct in the ALP since Sir John Kerr dismissed the Whitlam government 40 years ago — that the governor-general follows the advice of the elected government.

As we’ve acknowledged, Mr Heydon slipped up by initially accepting an invitation to deliver the Sir Garfield Barwick address to a Liberal Party legal function. And as Pamela Williams reported on Tuesday, concerns have been raised that lawyers working for the royal commission gave union whistleblower turned fraudster Kathy Jackson favourable treatment, including advance knowledge of issues to be covered during her appearances. But Australia needs the commission, which has done an effective job under Mr Heydon’s leadership, referring 30 union and ex-union officials for possible prosecution. Former ACTU president and cabinet minister Martin Ferguson has taken a longer view than many in modern Labor, noting that the commission’s revelations should drive important internal reforms. These would make the ALP more effective.

Until the Canning by-election on September 19, federal Labor, unfortunately, is unlikely to take a constructive approach to the China-Australia free-trade agreement, which party elders Bob Hawke, Bob Carr, Simon Crean and the party’s state leaders all support. For now, the Opposition Leader is prepared to be seen to risk trade, investment, growth and jobs in return for the support of inward-looking, protectionist trade unions that are blitzing Canning with a xenophobic scare campaign over the ChAFTA and penalty rates. In reality, Mr Shorten supports the deal and has pointed to the work Labor did in office towards achieving it.

*But with the CFMEU leading the campaign against ChAFTA, especially in Canning, the Opposition Leader, for now, is happy to create the impression Labor might vote against the enabling legislation and scupper the deal. Such acquiescence to the unions’ dictates on such a fundamental economic reform will do Mr Shorten’s political credibility and the nation’s economic future no good.*


----------



## noco (10 September 2015)

And here is Niki Savva on Bill Shorten.

Shorten must a hide as thick as a rhinoceros to be copping so much flake from his elders...the true Labor people and now journos. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...520010545?sv=80a09c3c59c18afe9c31acaa34011097

We can safely deduce what Gough Whitlam would have made of Bill Shorten’s Labor Party undermining the China free-trade agreement on the one hand, while on the other appealing to the Governor-General to intercede in a matter against the express wishes of the serving Prime Minister.

*Whitlam would think Shorten was bonkers. The leader who helped forge modern Australia’s relations with China would consider Shorten gormless and gutless for following the faceless and witless to undermine a trade deal with the potential to create tens of thousands of jobs.

His contempt would be compounded by Shorten’s other brainwave, or rather brain snap, to ask the Senate to ask Peter Cosgrove to remove Dyson Heydon as royal commissioner looking into trade union corruption. Hello. Did anyone think to remind the present leader and his shadow ministers that the 40th anniversary of Whitlam’s sacking by John Kerr approaches? That was the last time a governor-general took the advice of the opposition against a serving prime minister.

An argument can be made that it worked out well for the then opposition, but it wasn’t a principle or an outcome Labor saw fit to endorse at the time or at any time since, until recent days in a move reeking of hypocrisy, while oblivious to any ironies.

If he had a grave, Gough would be rolling in it.

Shorten’s actions may bring short-term rewards, but long term they are damaging — enough to rouse the dead and appal the *living.*


----------



## SirRumpole (10 September 2015)

noco said:


> We can safely deduce what Gough Whitlam would have made of Bill Shorten’s Labor Party undermining the China free-trade agreement on the one hand, while on the other appealing to the Governor-General to intercede in a matter against the express wishes of the serving Prime Minister.




Can we ?

So if Nikki is such a clairvoyant, perhaps she can pick the next Lotto numbers.


----------



## dutchie (13 September 2015)

Shorten to resign over numerous gaffs.

Subway or 7-Eleven? Bill Shorten's awkward slip of the tongue

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...the-tongue-20150902-gjdd5x.html#ixzz3lZuDPZB9
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook


Shorten calls Aylan Kurdi a girl.


Bill Shorten needs to resign his position as Opposition Leader after these awful gaffs.


----------



## noco (13 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten to resign over numerous gaffs.
> 
> Subway or 7-Eleven? Bill Shorten's awkward slip of the tongue
> 
> ...




And the Fabian indoctrinated ABC and Fairfax let it all go through to the keeper.

Move on...nothing to see here....just a slight slip of the tongue....big deal over nothing.


----------



## noco (13 September 2015)

I know this link will bring the lefties screaming from the roof tops, but nobody can deny what he has reported on the biased media is 100% correct.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/andrew-bolt

I dare you to listen to this program.


----------



## sydboy007 (13 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten to resign over numerous gaffs.
> 
> Subway or 7-Eleven? Bill Shorten's awkward slip of the tongue
> 
> ...




Suppository of Wisdom Abbott survived, so really why can't shorten?

Laughing at a joke about pacific islands facing rising waters from climate change.  Obviously that's not offensive at all eh.


----------



## sydboy007 (13 September 2015)

noco said:


> I know this link will bring the lefties screaming from the roof tops, but nobody can deny what he has reported on the biased media is 100% correct.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/andrew-bolt
> 
> I dare you to listen to this program.




Do you get any information from other than BoltCorp?


----------



## Tisme (14 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Suppository of Wisdom Abbott survived, so really why can't shorten?
> 
> Laughing at a joke about pacific islands facing rising waters from climate change.  Obviously that's not offensive at all eh.




How do you know it was a joke  ...  "Time doesn't mean anything when you're about to have water lapping at your door" sounds more like politics before candour.


----------



## dutchie (15 September 2015)

Shorten is next to go (before the election).


----------



## Tisme (15 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> Shorten is next to go (before the election).




My gut feel is that he wouldn't be uncomfortable with that possibility...he's more a broker than a captain IMO.


----------



## dutchie (15 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> My gut feel is that he wouldn't be uncomfortable with that possibility...
> 
> He loves himself too much to not want to hang in there
> 
> he's more a broker than a captain IMO.      Agree




......


----------



## overhang (15 September 2015)

noco said:


> Howard was not responsible for any deaths.......The involvement in Iraq was a bi-partisan event with the then Labor Party in opposition.
> 
> You want to blame Howard but you do mention Rudd's  decision to go along with killing Colonel Gaddaffi.




Sorry I know this comment was a long time ago but this is factually incorrect, Labor opposed the invasion of Iraq unless the United Nations endorsed the invasion which they never did.


----------



## Tisme (15 September 2015)

overhang said:


> Sorry I know this comment was a long time ago but this is factually incorrect, Labor opposed the invasion of Iraq unless the United Nations endorsed the invasion which they never did.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-03-23/labor-splits-as-crean-drops-bring-troops-home/1822206




> Labor splits as Crean drops 'bring troops home' demand
> Updated 24 Mar 2003, 12:14am
> 
> MAP: Australia
> ...


----------



## overhang (15 September 2015)

http://australianpolitics.com/2003/03/20/why-labor-does-not-support-the-war-crean.html



> Crean"As I speak, we are a nation on the brink of war.
> 
> A war we should not be in.
> 
> ...




Howard didn't enter that war with bipartisan support.


----------



## noco (21 September 2015)

I was surprised to read that left wing socialist David Marr throw his 2 cents into the ring into what is going on behind closed doors in the Labor Party....From all accounts, all is not well.....fractured fractions left right and center......More dirty deals done with the CFMEU .....The CFMEU says we will agree with you (Shorten) on the turn back of illegal boats if you (Shorten) find a place on a China Trade Mission.

Surprise....surprise !!!!!


https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/29581479/shorten-had-no-big-role-in-rudd-return/

*Marr writes that Mr Shorten's deal to get the ALP national conference in July to support asylum seeker boat turnbacks involved making promises to union bosses on several seats in state upper houses, a place on a China trade mission and a deputy mayoralty on the fringe of a capital city.*


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2015)

Well now the Laborites have gotten rid of Tony and Joe, and their favorite left wing Liberal installed, it will be interesting to see how Bill performs.

Also of interest, will be how Bowen handles Morrison, fun times ahead, me thinks.


----------



## noco (21 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Do you get any information from other than BoltCorp?





You must be blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other if you have not observed my links are wide and varied.

I even quoted one from that leftie David  Marr just recently.


----------



## noco (2 October 2015)

Oh No !!!!!! The Labor Party have hosted the white flag already...They have thrown in the towel before race has started.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-stuff-of-dreams/story-e6frg76f-1227553045005

*Labor believes it will probably lose the next election to Malcolm Turnbull.

When Tony Abbott was elected in 2013, senior Labor figures thought it would take three terms to knock off the new government.

Abbott’s poor polls allowed them to think they might do it in one term.

Now they expect Turnbull to win.

This was evident in the astonishingly lame Labor response to the Turnbull government’s magnificently vacuous stunt of announcing a bid for the UN Security Council in 2029.

For the moment, Labor cannot counter Turnbull’s ability to generate waves of positive publicity with completely meaningless and cost-free gestures.*

Um...this is not a Bolt report.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 October 2015)

noco said:


> Oh No !!!!!! The Labor Party have hosted the white flag already...They have thrown in the towel before race has started.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-stuff-of-dreams/story-e6frg76f-1227553045005
> 
> ...




So who wrote the article ? Greg Sheridan ?

Well known Liberal shill.


----------



## noco (2 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So who wrote the article ? Greg Sheridan ?
> 
> Well known Liberal shill.




So you reckon he is biased towards the Liberal Party, well unlike the commo Guardian paper who are always biased towards the LUG Party comrades, Sheridan can be critical of the Liberal Party as the link below proves.

So Rumpy get your facts right before making such derogatory comments. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...544316662?sv=68df27aa587e0606d43945a4ab9d8169

*It looks very much like Australia is going to sleepwalk into a train wreck on defence policy under new Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and new Defence Minister Marise Payne.

They may surprise us. We may get splendid defence policy, but at this critical moment every sign is worrying that the new government is not going to take defence seriously.

This is the only conclusion to be reached from the personnel changes, portfolio allocations, the profound transformation of the National Security Committee of cabinet and the interaction of all this with the defence white paper.*


----------



## noco (5 October 2015)

Another LUG party member caught ripping off the tax payers......

Sam Dastyari thought he could get away with the tax payer paying his personal phone bill of $15,175......Embarrassed after being caught out, he has agreed to pay it back...That is 3 times more than Bronwyn Bishops helicopter ride....What a bunch of hypocrites we have in the Labor Party.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...556777738?sv=94d7a739ca193c52bdfe85f1b9670ddd

*Perhaps Labor powerbroker Sam Dastyari was making real, long-distance phone calls in his re-*enactment in ABC’s The Killing Season.

Diary can reveal Dastyari has racked up a personal phone bill of $15,175, which rises to $17,286 if you also include his office account, from January to June this year.

It’s an office expense that’s on par with most MPs but his personal phone bill is, well, obviously excessive and likely to top the list of politicians’ phone expenses.

When contacted about his phone bill, an apologetic and embarrassed Dastyari said he contacted the parliament to let them know he would pay for his own phone bill moving forward, taking himself off the public system so that in future taxpayers would not be billed for his phone calls. He has negotiated a new phone plan for a couple of hundred dollars a month. “I have to say, I now understand bill shock,” Dastyari told Diary. “While I have never apologised for being a workaholic, I certainly should be better at managing my phone. I can negotiate a better deal if I pay for it myself, so I will.”*


----------



## dutchie (14 October 2015)

I can see how you could mistake a wad of cash for a cheque.

Garretts getting old, his memory is fading ....... so is his character.


----------



## noco (15 October 2015)

Well, it only took 24 hours after the Labor attack dogs stopped barking to discover who are the hypocrites.

Barnacle Bill has his wealth also associated with the Cayman Island.....

One would have thought those three idiots, Crean, Burke and Drayfus would have done their home work before opening their traps about Turnbull. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...aven-attack-dogs/story-e6frg6zo-1227569482197

Wealth of examples on both sides for the tax-haven attack dogs

    The Australian
    October 15, 2015 12:00AM




*Bill Shorten won’t like to hear it, but some of his private wealth is being held by a fund with a registered trust in the Cayman Islands.

Worse, the Opposition Leader used to be a director of the fund that chose the outfit that uses the Caribbean tax haven.

It sounds scandalous. It is actually humdrum.

At the heart of Labor’s attack on Malcolm Turnbull yesterday was a simple smear.

Some of the Prime Minister’s fortune is held by global funds that have offices registered in the Cayman Islands — a known tax haven.

The clear suggestion is that he is trying to avoid tax. Labor offered no detail about the taxes that were being dodged. It simply suggested there was something wrong with using a fund with an address in the Caymans.

Yet there are thousands of funds registered in the Caymans — and some of them are looking after Shorten’s own retirement savings. They are also linked to the funds used by the Labor frontbenchers who led the attack on Turnbull yesterday, including Chris Bowen and Sam Dastyari.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.

    MorePM under fire over tax
    MoreBill’s dogs barking up wrong tree

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.

Like every Australian with a superannuation account, Shorten is relying on global fund managers to look after some of his savings. And that means relying on managers who use the Caymans.

In Shorten’s case, the super fund in question is one of the country’s biggest and most reliable: Australian Super.

It looks after more than $80 billion for two million *members.

It is strongly supported by the Australian Workers Union. Shorten was one of its directors before he entered parliament.

With all that money to look after, Australian Super has to delegate work to international fund managers.

These include CVC Euro Equity Partners, Goldman Sachs and Warburg Pincus.

All have funds registered in the Caymans.

Australian Super also uses IFM Investors, a successful Australian firm that invests in global infrastructure. IFM has two funds registered in the Caymans.

Unlike the Prime Minister, Shorten is not making personal decisions about putting millions of dollars into global funds.

But if the Cayman Islands are forbidden territory, did Shorten argue against using Goldman Sachs when he was a director of Australian Super 10 years ago?

Keep in mind that the directors of Australian Super today include ACTU secretary Dave Oliver, Australian Manufacturing Workers Union secretary Paul Bastian and Australian Workers Union secretary Scott McDine. If using the Caymans is so evil, should the Australian Super board put a stop to it?

Other Labor figures are exposed to funds in the Caymans. Labor MPs generally use industry super funds that are backed by *unions, which in turn rely on IFM Investors to manage their infrastructure assets.

IFM is chaired by Garry Weaven, one of the Labor heroes who set up today’s superannuation system. And IFM manages money for most of Australia’s industry funds — the ones used by most Labor MPs.

Bowen and Dastyari have their savings in Australian Super, just like Shorten.

None of this means that Australian Super, IFM Investors, the nation’s most senior union leaders, Weaven, Shorten or his frontbenchers are doing anything wrong. But nor does it mean that Turnbull has committed a crime.

The mere fact that a fund is registered in the Caymans is not a hanging offence. And everyone knows Turnbull is rich.

Labor needs a much better case if it wants to create a scandal around his wealth.

*


----------



## Tisme (15 October 2015)

noco said:


> Well, it only took 24 hours after the Labor attack dogs stopped barking to discover who are the hypocrites.
> 
> *Barnacle Bil*l has his wealth also associated with the Cayman Island.....
> 
> ...




Still hitting the theatrical button I see.

I have accounts in the Caymans, but I have yet to find a way of avoiding taxation


----------



## noco (15 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Still hitting the theatrical button I see.
> 
> I have accounts in the Caymans, but I have yet to find a way of avoiding taxation




You seem to be dramatizing again I see....Tisme to the rescue of the 3 Fabians musketeers..


----------



## noco (16 October 2015)

The Labor Party are playing high tech politics again with their stupid demands for the CHAFTA.

In the meantime the Greens are sitting back laughing their heads off, saying nothing and watching the Labor Party fall apart with their semantics on this CHAFTA and the failed attack on Turnbull's bank account...The Greens must be rubbing their hands with glee 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...570841485?sv=4d9007352cf21c8af9b0a2e79f4ae4ab

If possible please the readers comments.

*Trade Minister Andrew Robb has promised to negotiate in “good faith’’ on Labor’s proposals.

The deal is expected to be debated in the House of Representatives next week and must be passed by Christmas for exporters to gain about $600 million in benefits from tariff cuts.

Ms Lambert said the TSMIT related to the market rates paid in an industry in a particular area and if the rate was below the threshold a company could not even apply for a 457 visa holder. Immigration Department figures show average wages in accommodation and food services in Queensland ($56,500) and Tasmania ($56,400) would not be sufficient to be able to access the 457 visa program under a $57,000 threshold. The industry in Victoria ($57,500) would just qualify. Many industries in the Northern Territory would be knocked out of the scheme, including retail trade ($56,900), agriculture, forestry and fishing ($55,800) and arts and recreation services ($56,800).

Ms Lambert was one of the authors of an independent review of the 457 visa program that recommended the TSMIT be frozen at $53,900 and be reviewed after two years, a recommendation the government accepted.

Ms Lambert said raising the threshold could have a major impact in regional areas where labour was short. For example if the chef at a Chinese restaurant left “where are you going to get your next chef?’’

“When you fiddle with it, it affects those businesses profoundly,’’ Ms Lambert said.

Conversely average wages in jobs that have been at the centre of the foreign worker row, such as those on major mining projects, are paid nearly triple the threshold.

Mining 457 visa holders have an average wage of $154,800, the average market rate across Australia.

Ms Lambert said about two thirds of the workers under the 457 visa scheme were not relevant to the current debate because they were either senior managers, chief executives or senior academics.

Opposition trade spokeswoman Penny Wong’s office said Labor’s proposals to improve safeguards around temporary migration had been released as exposure drafts so there could be consultation with stakeholders.

“The opposition will consider issues raised by the government, business and other stakeholders as we continue to develop our proposals,’’ the spokesman said.

*


----------



## Tisme (16 October 2015)

I see Andrew Robb is very happy with Labor offering to greenlight so long as local workers are protected....wasn't that the bogey in the first place which Abbott and his mob found totally unsatisfactory?


----------



## SirRumpole (16 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I see Andrew Robb is very happy with Labor offering to greenlight so long as local workers are protected....wasn't that the bogey in the first place which Abbott and his mob found totally unsatisfactory?




Change the leader and you change the policy


----------



## Tisme (16 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Change the leader and you change the policy




You think maybe we are getting a head of steam up ...whoo hoo!!


----------



## noco (19 October 2015)

The Fabians won't like the latest poll and serves them right after the personal attacks on Turnbull......The Labor Party are not very bright when you come to think of it.....They do not seem to learn from their mistakes....Gutter tactics, in most cases, tend to back fire and it has certainly shown up in the latest poll.

Time for a double disillusion and weed out the dregs in the senate at the same time.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/29843466/coalition-trouncing-labor-poll-shows/

*Opposition Leader Bill Shorten is under renewed pressure as a new opinion poll shows a revitalised coalition under Malcolm Turnbull is trouncing Labor.

The latest Fairfax-Ipsos poll, published in The Age and Sydney Morning Herald on Monday, shows Labor's primary vote has plummeted to 30 per cent against the coalition's 45 per cent.

Just two months ago, the gap was 38-36 in the coalition's favour.

The Greens' vote has also taken a hit - down from 16 per cent two months ago to 14 per cent.

On a two-party preferred basis the coalition is ahead 53-47, based on second preferences from the 2013 federal election.

The government has not led Labor in the Fairfax-Ipsos poll since March 2014.

The net approval rating for performance also has Mr Turnbull well in front *of Mr Shorten.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2015)

noco said:


> The Fabians won't like the latest poll and serves them right after the personal attacks on Turnbull......The Labor Party are not very bright when you come to think of it.....They do not seem to learn from their mistakes....Gutter tactics, in most cases, tend to back fire and it has certainly shown up in the latest poll.




I'm guessing it takes some time for the vitriol to get out of the system..... now Tony has gone we can only hope the level of debate will rise and the hate divides close from all quarters.

The ALP need to forget the smoking guns


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing it takes some time for the vitriol to get out of the system..... now Tony has gone we can only hope the level of debate will rise and the hate divides close from all quarters.
> 
> The ALP need to forget the smoking guns




Labor made it all about Abbott, rather than the coalition as a whole, now they are left with an empty gun. 

They really have run a narrowly focused and poorly directed campaign, they will have to work very hard, to recover ground. IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Labor made it all about Abbott, rather than the coalition as a whole, now they are left with an empty gun.
> 
> They really have run a narrowly focused and poorly directed campaign, they will have to work very hard, to recover ground. IMO




Abbott's policies are still hanging around despite the new packaging.

No change on carbon price, it's coal over solar, no attempt to crack down on /negative gearing rorts or super tax concessions for high income earners etc.

If these policies don't change then it could cost the Coalition.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Abbott's policies are still hanging around .




Now that's where you and I might disagree ... I'm not aware of any policies  agendas yes, but policy vacuum is probably more accurate


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Abbott's policies are still hanging around despite the new packaging.
> 
> No change on carbon price, it's coal over solar, no attempt to crack down on /negative gearing rorts or super tax concessions for high income earners etc.
> 
> If these policies don't change then it could cost the Coalition.




Well Fairfax, even with their pro Labor agenda, don't think so.

They wouldn't have published the results, if they weren't happy with it, they would have put a negative spin on it.IMO

The crackdown on negative gearing and super tax concessions, could have been addressed by Labor, but they didn't, so that isn't a problem.

With regard carbon price, the major players are now taking an active interest in addressing it, so everyone else will fall in line.

Which from my perspective, is better than Australia, standing out there flaying themselves, saying"look at at me".

Immature Government, with inept management, very focused on self projection.


----------



## noco (21 October 2015)

Paul Kelly sums up the situation that faces the Labor Party since Malcolm Turnbull became PM.

Labor still seems to be deluding themselves that they have all the answers but voters think otherwise.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...576157009?sv=af3e2a851a55811beeeadbde54ae4454

*The Turnbull ascendancy raises the prospect of renewed crisis inside the Labor Party with the tables now turned dramatically and Labor facing a possible battering by the opinion polls in a process guaranteed to expose its systemic flaws.

All the destructive forces of contemporary Australian politics remain in place — polls, media and the panic threshold for MPs — the only difference is that, having driven a change of prime minister, this threat is likely to be unleashed against Labor.

A moderate honeymoon for Malcolm Turnbull will be enough to shatter the delusional world in which Labor has lived for past 18 months.

The upshot is equally pre*dictable — instead of focusing on its underlying problems in terms of structure, culture and policy, Labor will merely target Bill Shorten.

While an unpopular Tony Abbott was prime minister, Shorten enjoyed a “reality holiday” — able to pretend Labor’s house was in order by sheltering behind favourable polls that reflected Liberal flaws, not Labor strengths. The holiday may be over — if Turnbull keeps his ascendancy.

This will probably happen because the public’s “performance test” for prime ministers is now set low.

The public will not expect Turnbull to offer transformational policies any time soon. Indeed, it will be relieved to see hopeful, stable government. It knows this is still a first-term government. There is every chance Turnbull will look good and be welcomed by the public for passing such elementary tests.

Labor remains almost completely unreconstructed from the Rudd-Gillard era and, even worse, as a political institution it may be incapable of being reconstructed short of any comparable figure such as a Whitlam, Hawke or Keating emerging to do the job.

The risk for Labor is that Turnbull firms in the polls over the next period. If the trend in this week’s Fairfax/ Ipsos poll is reinforced by future Newspolls, then Labor will face external pressures and internal frustrations.*

READ MORE PLUS THE PUBLIC COMMENTS.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 October 2015)

I agree with those comments noco.
Labor need to reinvent themselves. They need better people in Parliament. Too many union hacks and factional warlords. 
If they do not, it will be the Greens who will become the opposition party in 10 years time.


----------



## trainspotter (21 October 2015)

> Mr Sasse told the royal commission that Mr Shorten proposed the $300,000 payment. He said it comprised of a salary for an organiser of $75,000 per year plus a car.
> 
> The negotiations between Mr Sasse and Mr Shorten have been particularly explosive because Mr Sasse's successor in the job, Julian Rzesnowiecki, gave evidence to the commission that Mr Shorten's successor, Cesar Melham, created a series of sham invoices to cover up the deal that Mr Shorten had commenced.
> 
> "The main purpose was to, you know, disguise the fact that we were funding an organiser," Mr Rzesnowiecki told the royal commission.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...ating-to-trade-union-royal-commission/6870756

The bait is very smelly and the hook is very sharp. But wait .... John Holland says it cannot locate the incriminating documents ?? Hmmmmmmmmm ...

“Quoth Hudibras, I smell a rat! 
Ralpho, thou dost prevaricate.”
―Samuel Butler (poet)


----------



## noco (26 October 2015)

The Labor Party are still in denial of the financial crisis they created 2007/2013.

Henry Ergas sums up the World's greatest treasurer and Holy praised by Chris Bowen. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...se-of-wayne-swan/story-fn7078da-1227581725294

*It may be symptomatic of that “instinctive distaste for the past” that historian Keith Hancock thought characterised Australians that there is no official history of the Treasury. Chris Bowen’s The Money Men doesn’t claim to fill that gap, but it does provide vivid and insightful portraits of some of our more prominent treasurers.

In doing so, however, it also confirms Labor has learned nothing from the policy errors of the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd years.

Assessing treasurers, as Bowen aims to do, is hardly simple. Of course, their insight, diligence and endurance must count in the balance, along with their mastery of the craft of politics; and in the end, it is surely outcomes that matter.

But what Machiavelli said of human action is especially true of those at the helm of public affairs: that all attempts at controlling events are confronted by Fortune with an irreducible element of opposition, which Machiavelli described as arising from the forces of chaos, fatality, necessity and ignorance. Only by the exercise of Virtue can Fortune be overcome, avoiding the otherwise inevitable fate of decay and defeat.*

And more.

*Whether the Rudd government’s stimulus spending during the global financial crisis “saved” us from recession is controversial; what is certain is that instead of subsequently winding it back, Labor kept adding to long-term spending commitments even once it was clear that the waning of the resource boom meant they could not be funded.

Rather than showing the political courage, and strength of character, to refuse to make promises that could never be honoured, Swan and his colleagues laid time bombs for their successors. But Bowen includes Swan in his pantheon of heroes, with his harshest criticism being that individual measures “could have been improved”.

Ultimately, Fadden took fiscal stewardship seriously; Swan did not. And still now, as Bowen’s discussion highlights, Labor refuses to acknowledge the mess it left behind, much less help resolve it.

Bowen has therefore missed an opportunity to honestly reconsider the future in the light of the past.

Until Labor does, it will be doomed to repeat the errors that have cost it, and Aus*tralia, dearly.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 October 2015)

noco said:


> The Labor Party are still in denial of the financial crisis they created 2007/2013.
> 
> Henry Ergas sums up the World's greatest treasurer and Holy praised by Chris Bowen.
> 
> ...




What a load of bollocks.


----------



## noco (26 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> What a load of bollocks.




Poor Rumpy is also in denial...the facts are there mate.....accept the balls up Labor made.


----------



## noco (28 October 2015)

With union membership in the private sector at its lowest now down to 11%, it now understandable why Shorten and his union comrades exhorted to blackmailing business to pay for employee membership, without the employees knowledge, in return for industrial peace.

It was another way of boosting the Labor cash cow......So, with membership down and the effect that the TURC will have, the ALP coffers will start to dry up.....Poor buggers...I feel really sorry for them.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...584609268?sv=9e8a2a2a6014f7c23ebfa20e33c3b183

*A drop in union membership to 11 per cent in the private sector has revived calls for Malcolm Turnbull to further deregulate the labour market and increased pressure on Bill Shorten to slash union representation at the ALP national conference.

Employment Minister Michaelia Cash seized on figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics showing union membership had plummeted from 17 per cent in August 2013 to 15 per cent by August last year.

Senator Cash warned that, despite declining members, *unions were wielding greater control over the Shorten-led *opposition in what she slammed as a “toxic relationship” undermining workers interests.*


----------



## noco (2 November 2015)

More clear evidence the CFMEU is in control of the Labor Party....Is it any wonder workers are deserting the union movement in droves.

Some of the rusted on Labor supporters are still living in the 19th century by hanging on to an ancient system of the union movement.....The union movement has now become redundant and most of the unions are only interested in power and not its members. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rkers-dont-count/story-fnbcok0h-1227590100210

*The union movement is in terminal decline, bleeding members in both the private and public sectors, and plagued with allegations of systemic corruption and criminality. While most voters support the principle of collective bargaining in workplaces, they are deserting unions in droves.

But as unions have diminished in workplaces, they have increased their influence inside the ACTU and the Labor Party. Rogue militant unions such as the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union effectively run the *traditionally moderate ACTU. Scores of union leaders moonlight as Labor factional operatives and exercise excessive influence over policy, candidates and *personnel.

The incredible shrinking union movement now represents a dismal 11 per cent of the private-sector workforce. Yet unions are still able to appoint 50 per cent of delegates to most state Labor conferences. Moreover, these delegates are often paid operatives of union secretarie*s.


----------



## Tisme (2 November 2015)

Nearly 50% of the population will prefer the Labor Party over the combined might of the Liberal Party and the National Party at the next election.

You gotta keep things in perspective even if you have an irrational hatred of people you don't even know.


----------



## dutchie (2 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Nearly 50% of the population will prefer the Labor Party over the combined might of the Liberal Party and the National Party at the next election.




Your dreaming *again* Tisme.

Last election Labor only got 33.4% of the primary vote.

And that was 33.4% too much.


----------



## noco (2 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Nearly 50% of the population will prefer the Labor Party over the combined might of the Liberal Party and the National Party at the next election.
> 
> You gotta keep things in perspective even if you have an irrational hatred of people you don't even know.




Wishful thinking my friend....You are joking of course?


----------



## Tisme (2 November 2015)

noco said:


> Wishful thinking my friend....




Yes I'm starting to think that might be true, however I still maintain the other point about ~50% preferred to Labor will be correct based on historical/hysterical data and polling:

e.g.

http://www.essentialvision.com.au/tag/two-party-preferred


----------



## noco (2 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yes I'm starting to think that might be true, however I still maintain the other point about ~50% preferred to Labor will be correct based on historical/hysterical data and polling:
> 
> e.g.
> 
> http://www.essentialvision.com.au/tag/two-party-preferred




Historical data also indicates the LUG Party are poor financial controllers....Big spenders..... big taxers......big wasters.


----------



## orr (2 November 2015)

noco said:


> Historical data also indicates the LUG Party are poor financial controllers....Big spenders..... big taxers......big wasters.




and ahh'... a bit bigger on progress.

you know progress don't you noco? that's where you have ideas about how to make things better and then going about instituting those ideas... omelettes and broken eggs and all that.
 as opposed to breaking things you just don't like... like say Iraq.

and tell us  how much did the recently departed treasurer increase the total government debt? to the nearest $100 billion, (oh masters of financial control) in his fortuitously short term.(but no where near short enough); and I don't mean by the money directed from the public purse to his personal entitlements, manipulated travel allowance/wife's house BS and all.

ahh, I know that I'm speaking for some...There is a lot of relief about regarding the terrible intellectual constipation of the recent political past. and it feels better by the day.


----------



## Tisme (3 November 2015)

orr said:


> and ahh'... a bit bigger on progress.
> 
> you know progress don't you noco? that's where you have ideas about how to make things better and then going about instituting those ideas... omelettes and broken eggs and all that.
> as opposed to breaking things you just don't like... like say Iraq.
> ...




Yeah I have to admit I'm rather disappointed in the LNP not halting the debt spiral and actually adding to it. Blaming the Labor party for fiscal policy rather than modifying it sufficiently points to incompetency in my view. They had six years to formulate a plan and seem to have done nothing but learn how to carp and harp.

And for liberal party voters to enjoy the mess because it shows the labor party as flawed is tantamount to self harm and deserving of the caster oil solution that will be coming.


----------



## noco (3 November 2015)

orr said:


> and ahh'... a bit bigger on progress.
> 
> you know progress don't you noco? that's where you have ideas about how to make things better and then going about instituting those ideas... omelettes and broken eggs and all that.
> as opposed to breaking things you just don't like... like say Iraq.
> ...





Typical Lug Party waffle.

You don't even know what you are talking about.


----------



## Tisme (3 November 2015)

dutchie said:


> Your dreaming *again* Tisme.
> 
> Last election Labor only got 33.4% of the primary vote.
> 
> And that was 33.4% too much.




No no no

you need to 'carefully' read my posts .... I am never wrong, you know that. The keyword is "preferred", we have a preferential voting system n'est pas?

If we are going to compare first past post Labor always wins against LIberals, Greens, Nats, etc. I don't make the figures up they are on the ABS site to view.

I know it hurts some punters, but votes are the cornerstone of our great Mockocracy.


----------



## Tisme (3 November 2015)

noco said:


> Historical data also indicates the LUG Party are poor financial controllers....Big spenders..... big taxers......big wasters.




I'm not arguing with you. I take an even harder view that if you have a bleeding heart in charge money will be spent on the fringes, which in itself is great for the legitimate strugglers, but the gravy train that interfaces govt to end user is tantamount to criminal use of taxpayer monies in my view. This is why I do not want Wong and Tanya having any power in the next Lab govt.


I still can't get over the 25% taken by project managers, 25% taken by state govts, 15% taken by design consultants before any money made its way to the construction of school halls, wherein most of the family builders went bust.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 November 2015)

noco said:


> Historical data also indicates the LUG Party are poor financial controllers....Big spenders..... big taxers......big wasters.




It's been pointed out to you many times that one of the biggest spenders in our history was the Howard government.

They wasted mining boom money on recurrent expenditure like family tax benefits and super tax concessions for the rich instead of infrastructure investment.

Family tax benefits are now our second biggest welfare expense after the OAP and all thanks to John Howard.


----------



## dutchie (3 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> No no no
> 
> you need to 'carefully' read my posts .... I am never wrong, you know that. The keyword is "preferred", we have a preferential voting system n'est pas?
> 
> ...





Labor, Bill and Tisme..... still dreamin'


----------



## noco (3 November 2015)

Malcolm Turnbull has deleted the Sir and Dames Knighthoods.....

Can we now expect Sir Rumpole to change to Mr. Rumpole?


----------



## sptrawler (3 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> It's been pointed out to you many times that one of the biggest spenders in our history was the Howard government.
> 
> They wasted mining boom money on recurrent expenditure like family tax benefits and super tax concessions for the rich instead of infrastructure investment.
> 
> Family tax benefits are now our second biggest welfare expense after the OAP and all thanks to John Howard.




You may as well add, "look into my eyes, look into my eyes, Labor were never in office, they never spent any of the mining boom money and never ran a deficit". 

Just write Labors six years of chaos, out of history, like a bad dream.


----------



## Tom32 (4 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> It's been pointed out to you many times that one of the biggest spenders in our history was the Howard government.
> 
> They wasted mining boom money on recurrent expenditure like family tax benefits and super tax concessions for the rich instead of infrastructure investment.
> .




Agree with that summary on the Howard / Costello years.

It is amazing that so many conservative commentators criticise governments adopting Keynesian economics when Keynes would have suggested the Australian govt led by Howard withdraw expenditure throughout the mining boom so we would have had savings to deploy now, rather than having to rely solely on interest rates at levels that would have to be distorting long term rational investment. We actually have to withdraw govt spending (to reign in the deficit) at the worst possible time. 

All that said Rudd / Gillard years were even worse in my opinion. The day before the school hall / $1000 cheque budget I was excited with all the speculation about a big infrastructure spend... As I read the budget that morning I had a feeling of total disappointment. While the labor party can be proud of their contribution to the harbour bridge, snowy river scheme and many other projects, the labor party of the 21st century doesn't even get the one thing they have historically been good at right; backing projects with vision. 

Before anyone says it, I don't watch anywhere near enough live streaming pornography for me to consider the NBN visionary....


----------



## Tisme (4 November 2015)

dutchie said:


> Labor, Bill and Tisme..... still dreamin'
> 
> 
> View attachment 64879




Now you are just being silly and showing your ignorance. Even I take the stupidity of LIberal, Green, Nats and Labor voters seriously because they all still seem intent on cocking my life... you need to do so too instead of sissy comments  nah nah ne nah nah 

http://results.aec.gov.au/17496/Website/HouseStateFirstPrefsByParty-17496-NAT.htm


----------



## Logique (5 November 2015)

Shorten and Plibersek getting the job done in Kiribati.

From: http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/world/
WORLD’S WHITEST WOMAN
Tim Blair, Wednesday, November 04, 2015


----------



## Tisme (5 November 2015)

Logique said:


> Shorten and Plibersek getting the job done in Kiribati.
> 
> From: http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/world/
> WORLD’S WHITEST WOMAN
> ...




As much as I dislike Tanya's demeanour, I think Tim Blair should lift his game out of his obvious contempt for women.... an over bearing mother perhaps?

He even admits his immaturity and keeps company with the racist bloke who, amongst other things,  made a taxpayer funded doco Dumb, Drunk& Racist to whip up Indian hatred of us, : 



> Please join me and *Joe Hildebrand* as we discuss the week’s events. Be amazed as two semi-adults achieve occasional coherence on the topics of Movember, dead communists, RSL dress codes and dining with George Brandis, all while dodging incoming jet aircraft. Annabel Crabb’s obvious fascism is also reviewed..


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2015)

I suppose all the rusted on ASF Labor supporters, will be jumping in and buying up BHP at $20, what with all the super profits it's a no brainer.

The Labor Party underpinned their nation building policy, on the super profits they were going to make, absolute dicks.
Union hacks, does not a Government make.lol
Bring back Keating and Hawke, or Labor are gone.


----------



## poverty (12 November 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Bring back Keating and Hawke, or Labor are gone.




What about their latest attempt at a celebrity candidate?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...o-run-as-labor-candidate-20151111-gkwrb1.html

Does a bloke who wanted to quit AFL football because he got booed have the thick hide required for the cut and thrust of federal politics?  I think he would end up crying into his cornflakes.


----------



## Logique (12 November 2015)

Tend to agree.

I think Adam would be better suited to task forces and quangos, than the brutal cut and thrust of parliament. 

I would advise him against, whichever political party that approaches him.


----------



## wayneL (12 November 2015)

Tom32 said:


> Agree with that summary on the Howard / Costello years.
> 
> It is amazing that so many conservative commentators criticise governments adopting Keynesian economics when Keynes would have suggested the Australian govt led by Howard withdraw expenditure throughout the mining boom so we would have had savings to deploy now, rather than having to rely solely on interest rates at levels that would have to be distorting long term rational investment. We actually have to withdraw govt spending (to reign in the deficit) at the worst possible time.
> 
> ...




The problem with Keynesianism is that it is only invoked as economies get into trouble.

Can you show me one government in the English speaking world, ever, that practiced 'true vine' Keynesianism?

Despite the big gu'mint implications of it, I could live with it if properly practiced, but governments, even Social Dem ones just don't. It just isn't politically expedient in boom times.


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2015)

Another Labor stuff up, that they won't own up to, ranks alongside the MRRT. 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...b-but-tax-take-flatlines-20151113-gkyil4.html


----------



## Tom32 (18 November 2015)

wayneL said:


> The problem with Keynesianism is that it is only invoked as economies get into trouble.
> 
> Can you show me one government in the English speaking world, ever, that practiced 'true vine' Keynesianism?
> 
> Despite the big gu'mint implications of it, I could live with it if properly practiced, but governments, even Social Dem ones just don't. It just isn't politically expedient in boom times.




I wish it wasn't so, but you are right. Is that a problem with Keynesian economics though? Should we throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak?

Maybe this infrastructure bank both sides of politics are keen on could be the answer?

Take 10pc of our taxes and lock them into this bank.

Have a board where most are infrastructure specialists but two or 3 are economists who decide how much of the kitty is spent each year. Seperate the power to spend (in part only) from politicians. The decision on what to build could ultimately still be theirs but how much is released could be seperate akin to the reserve bank board.

It works with the reserve around monetary policy (well better than politicians deciding...) why couldn't it work around fiscal policy?


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2015)

I see Fairfax are starting to crank up the anti Turnbull press.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...lk-to-the-new-zealanders-20151119-gl3egg.html

Jeez they really have lost the plot, why not run some reports on what both parties are offering.


----------



## Logique (20 November 2015)

Malcolm has impressed a lot of people who aren't going to vote for him.

He looks more and more like a windbag.


----------



## Tisme (20 November 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I see Fairfax are starting to crank up the anti Turnbull press.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...lk-to-the-new-zealanders-20151119-gl3egg.html
> 
> Jeez they really have lost the plot, why not run some reports on what both parties are offering.




Obama has enough nous to know about the perennial cross ditch baiting and the newspapers make out there's something serious going on? Where are the grown ups in the press?


----------



## Tisme (20 November 2015)

Logique said:


> Malcolm has impressed a lot of people who aren't going to vote for him.
> 
> He looks more and more like a windbag.




He's a 1000% better than the mug Julie Bishop had him replace IMO.


----------



## Logique (21 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> He's a 1000% better than the mug Julie Bishop had him replace IMO.



Most of whose policies he has adopted, the political heavy lifting having been done by his predecessor.


----------



## drsmith (21 November 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I see Fairfax are starting to crank up the anti Turnbull press.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...lk-to-the-new-zealanders-20151119-gl3egg.html
> 
> Jeez they really have lost the plot, why not run some reports on what both parties are offering.



He's obviously doing too well in the polls for their liking.

From the article,



> Microphones picked up Mr Obama, seated next to Mr Turnbull, asking about who he was meeting at the conference.




It looks like the only return Barack Obama had to Malcolm's response was to essentially be rude.



> After Mr Turnbull mentioned he would be meeting his Kiwi counterpart Prime Minister John Key, Mr Obama replied: "So you actually, er, you actually talk to the New Zealanders?"




Barack Obama I would have thought would not be one who would have to chase such cheap publicity. In that and what followed, it was Barack who was out of his depth. 



> If the US President was joking, it wasn't exactly obvious. Mr Turnbull seemed to take him seriously, replying: "I do. He is a real role model."
> 
> Mr Obama again: "Nah, he's a wonderful guy. He and I have become good friends and not just because we play golf together."




The image says it all.


----------



## Macquack (21 November 2015)

drsmith said:


> It looks like the only return Barack Obama had to Malcolm's response was to *essentially be rude.*




Lighten up Smith, Obama has a sense of humour. 

Anyway, Obama can say what ever he likes, he is the leader of the free world. Mal is the unelected leader of a banana republic and has been on the job for a whole 66 days.

Get back to us when Turnbull takes charge of the New World Order.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

Macquack said:


> Lighten up Smith, Obama has a sense of humour.
> 
> Anyway, Obama can say what ever he likes, he is the leader of the free world. Mal is the unelected leader of a banana republic and has been on the job for a whole 66 days.
> 
> Get back to us when Turnbull takes charge of the New World Order.




I took Obama's remark to be a tongue in cheek reference to the Rugby World Cup result.

 I don't think he intended any offence.


----------



## Macquack (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I took Obama's remark to be a tongue in cheek reference to the Rugby World Cup result.



Exactly what I thought.


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2015)

Macquack said:


> Lighten up Smith, Obama has a sense of humour.
> 
> Anyway, Obama can say what ever he likes, he is the leader of the free world. Mal is the unelected leader of a banana republic and has been on the job for a whole 66 days.
> 
> Get back to us when Turnbull takes charge of the New World Order.




The only people who laugh at Obama are the fawning leftist sycophants.

Yeah, it's unfortunate Mal had to inherit an economy with a Labor afflicted deficit/debt akin to Nicaragua.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

wayneL said:


> The only people who laugh at Obama are the fawning leftist sycophants.
> 
> Yeah, it's unfortunate Mal had to inherit an economy with a Labor afflicted deficit/debt akin to Nicaragua.




Sort of like the people on the other side who laughed at Abbott's many gaffes like knights and dames and the women of Australia going about their ironing.


----------



## noco (21 November 2015)

Macquack said:


> Lighten up Smith, Obama has a sense of humour.
> 
> Anyway, Obama can say what ever he likes, he is the leader of the free world. Mal is the unelected leader of a banana republic and has been on the job for a whole 66 days.
> 
> Get back to us when Turnbull takes charge of the New World Order.




I thought this thread was about the '"USELESS LABOR PARTY" ?:topic


----------



## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

noco said:


> I thought this thread was about the '"USELESS LABOR PARTY" ?:topic




Easy for you to say when you hijack other threads with your "Fabian" pitch !


----------



## noco (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Easy for you to say when you hijack other threads with your "Fabian" pitch !




Good one Rumpy...now you are talking sense.....But I always meld it in to the right thread.

With that pitch I might get into it again......Hope you noticed I have laid low on the Fabians.

I thought you would have thanked me..


----------



## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

noco said:


> I thought you would have thanked me..




I do noco, I do


----------



## wayneL (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Sort of like the people on the other side who laughed at Abbott's many gaffes like knights and dames and the women of Australia going about their ironing.




No. I think we all cringed at those.... not that that's relevant to the egregious Obama.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

wayneL said:


> No. I think we all cringed at those.... not that that's relevant to the egregious Obama.




As opposed to the saintly George W. Bush, "you are either for us or against us", "weapons of mass destruction", aka The Crusader ?


----------



## MrBurns (24 November 2015)

Shorten now Mr 15%
See ? The Australian public aren't  stupid after all .


----------



## dutchie (24 November 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Shorten now Mr 15%
> See ? The Australian public aren't  stupid after all .




Getting closer and closer to his rightful level.


----------



## noco (24 November 2015)

dutchie said:


> Getting closer and closer to his rightful level.




Anyone noticed Albo is appearing on the news in an ever increasing way?........

On QandA last night.......Watch your back Billy Boy......The Assassin is about to assassinated.

Down ...down and down he goes.


----------



## noco (24 November 2015)

noco said:


> Anyone noticed Albo is appearing on the news in an ever increasing way?........
> 
> On QandA last night.......Watch your back Billy Boy......The Assassin is about to assassinated.
> 
> Down ...down and down he goes.






http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...620261638?sv=ef6da23d671509b1d2b894b2a7eeb09e

*Labor is facing the same devastating defeat that it suffered at the last federal election, as Bill Shorten’s standing with voters as the alternative prime minister has tumbled to the lowest level for any ALP leader in more than a decade.

The latest Newspoll, taken *exclusively for The Australian, *reveals Labor’s primary vote has fallen to 33 per cent. Support for the opposition has slumped six points since Malcolm Turnbull replaced Tony Abbott 10 weeks ago and is back to the same level as the 2013 poll, which was the ALP’s worst election result in 80 years*

Labor is in self destruct mode and as long as they cling to the unions and the Greens they will slide further down the slippery poll.........Barnacle Bill has his suicide belt attached to his body to speed up the mission.


----------



## dutchie (24 November 2015)

noco said:


> Labor is in self destruct mode and as long as they cling to the unions and the Greens they will slide further down the slippery poll.........Barnacle Bill has his suicide belt attached to his body to speed up the mission.




Australia is grateful and reassured.


----------



## Tisme (24 November 2015)

noco said:


> Labor is in self destruct mode and as long as they cling to the unions and the Greens they will slide further down the slippery poll.........Barnacle Bill has his suicide belt attached to his body to speed up the mission.




This guy is has a far better batting average of prediction than the haters in this thread and that isn't saying much about the drug fueled dreamer who couldn't write a coherent sentence or date stamp because of it:


----------



## dutchie (29 November 2015)

Thank god for Bill Shorten. Long may he reign.


----------



## explod (30 November 2015)

dutchie said:


> Thank god for Bill Shorten. Long may he reign.




Well in my view God is not true and Shorten is a Dick he.. d. 

Ovetime to move on.


----------



## MrBurns (30 November 2015)

Shorten on Lateline what a pathetic loser I almost feel sorry for him, well no not really I'm laughing too much.


----------



## explod (30 November 2015)

noco said:


> Labor is in self destruct mode and as long as they cling to the unions and the Greens they will slide further down the slippery poll.........Barnacle Bill has his suicide belt attached to his body to speed up the mission.




They have nothing to do with the Greens.   They hate them and place them last on thier cards. Why do many try to put such diverse political opponents together???????


----------



## noco (30 November 2015)

explod said:


> They have nothing to do with the Greens.   They hate them and place them last on thier cards. Why do many try to put such diverse political opponents together???????




You can bet your boots they will swap preferences at the next election like they did under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd/Shorten.

The unions even feed the Greens money.

The LUG party follow the rules of the Fabians and sing the same chorus.....Socialism...Socialism...Socialism.

To be sure.....to be sure...to be sure.


----------



## Tisme (1 December 2015)

dutchie said:


> Thank god for Bill Shorten. Long may he reign.




He seems to be too focused on smoking guns rather than just taking the rest of the electoral period off.


----------



## noco (1 December 2015)

Labor's year of ideas.....pie in the sky......thought bubbles......no idea of the cost and where the money will come from....and  the naive believe all of  BS's  BS......His initials are very appropriate to his name.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...valley-fantasies/story-fnhulhjj-1227628733671

*Labor has plans for a new tier of welfare to assist a recently *discovered pocket of need: businesses that struggle to find private investors to take their innovations seriously.

Bill Shorten claims pumping a lazy half-billion into business start-ups will “capture the wave of digital change that is washing through the whole world”.

Labor calls it co-investment. Others may call it an expensive one-way ticket to la-la land since it rests on the ridiculous premise that innovation can be unleashed by government decree.

“How much is going to cost?” Shorten was asked at a recent press conference. “And how are you going to fund it?” Shorten stared reproachfully at the impudent hack. “We cannot afford not to be in the game of innovation.”

We have learned to be wary of things politicians claim we cannot afford not to do. It is how we got saddled with a National Broadband Network and piecemeal *renewable energy that gives us the highest electricity prices in the world.

It is particularly unnerving when the announcement of the-thing-we-cannot-afford-not-to-do is announced in the manner of a Soviet kommissar setting pig-iron production targets for 1932.

Start-ups will create 500,000 jobs and 100,000 positions in the IT industry. Really? Does Shorten actually know this or is it just another great big number *casually plucked from the air?*


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2015)

noco said:


> Labor's year of ideas.....pie in the sky......thought bubbles......no idea of the cost and where the money will come from....and  the naive believe all of  BS's  BS......His initials are very appropriate to his name.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*

A very good idea from Labor.

Private enterprise in this country is so risk adverse that basically everyone in this country who has an idea has to go elsewhere to get it developed.

If the private sector does not support Australian inventions then the government should.*


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## noco (1 December 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> A very good idea from Labor.
> 
> Private enterprise in this country is so risk adverse that basically everyone in this country who has an idea has to go elsewhere to get it developed.
> 
> If the private sector does not support Australian inventions then the government should.




More Labor pie in the sky with a chance to waste more tax payers money.


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## noco (18 December 2015)

Judith Sloan very nicely sums up the difference between a Labor run state and a Liberal run state.

Queensland has the biggest debt ($80 billion and climbing) thanks Labor's Peter Beattie and Anna Bligh which Newman's LNP tried to revive with asset sales.

Compare that to the NSW Liberal state government who are almost debt free.

Labor have no idea how to manage our finances.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/3d5674192f54cabcef4047ca5e842a0e
*Forget a tale of two cities, consider a tale of two states, NSW and Queensland. When it comes to their public finances, it is a case of chalk and cheese.

NSW is rolling in it, with reven*ues pouring in by virtue of the strong residential property market and a series of adept asset sales boosting the balance sheet to the point that the state will soon be able to declare a position of zero net debt.

North of the Tweed, it is a different matter altogether. The recurrent* budget is in bad shape, made worse by the recommencement of public-sector hirings and over-the-top wage increases.

The debt of the state is excessive by any measure (Queensland was the first state to have its credit rating downgraded) and all the tricky accounting in the world doesn’t alter the parlous state of Queensland’s balance sheet.

Given the recent utterings of the Queensland Treasurer, Curtis Pitt, one thing is clear: he has an alternative career as a comedian.*

Read more plus the readers comments.


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## Tisme (19 December 2015)

noco said:


> Judith Sloan very nicely sums up the difference between a Labor run state and a Liberal run state.
> 
> Queensland has the biggest debt ($80 billion and climbing) thanks Labor's Peter Beattie and Anna Bligh which Newman's LNP tried to revive with asset sales.
> 
> ...



I think you must treat this with an even hand Noco. NSW is a Labor State and debt and deficit is really their doing.

Of course Bolt, being the penultimate socialist, continues to pigeon hole people into social and political camps, denying the idea of individual freedom of expression:- if you aren't a supporter of the Liberal Party of Australia union, you are contemptible and need rehabilitating.


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## noco (19 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think you must treat this with an even hand Noco. NSW is a Labor State and debt and deficit is really their doing.
> 
> Of course Bolt, being the penultimate socialist, continues to pigeon hole people into social and political camps, denying the idea of individual freedom of expression:- if you aren't a supporter of the Liberal Party of Australia union, you are contemptible and need rehabilitating.






Is that so ...well read the extract from the Australian.

*Take the case of NSW. The latest* budget update inflates the budget surpluses that the state will run this year and the next three. Surpluses of $2.6 billion each year on average are now predicted, a significant jump from the expectation of the state budget. Additional conveyancing stamp duties of $863 million are now expected*, reflecting the buoyant, albeit cooling, Sydney residential real estate market.

But the really big-ticket item is the state’s successful sale of its electricity poles and wires (TransGrid) for $10bn and an additional $438m in transfer duty paid by the successful bidder.

This was a brilliant result, with the final sum made larger because of the Queensland government’s refusal to put any of its electricity assets up for sale, as well as an extra $2bn from the federal government as part of the Asset Recyclin*g program.

That comes on top of the successful leasing of ports and other asset sales by the NSW Coalition government.
*

This what Newman wanted to do for Queensland but that Useless Labor Party won the election with the propaganda from Labor and the unions on "DON'T LET THE LNP SELL YOUR ASSETS" and the naive swallowed it.
The Labor Party in NSW were thrown out of office also leaving behind a debt.

Labor left a debt of $12.5 billion in 2011.


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## Tisme (19 December 2015)

noco said:


> Is that so ...well read the extract from the Australian.
> 
> *Take the case of NSW. The latest* budget update inflates the budget surpluses that the state will run this year and the next three. Surpluses of $2.6 billion each year on average are now predicted, a significant jump from the expectation of the state budget. Additional conveyancing stamp duties of $863 million are now expected*, reflecting the buoyant, albeit cooling, Sydney residential real estate market.
> 
> ...




That's not the point I'm making. Don't you ever get fed up listening to others whose credentials have never been tested, who wouldn't know you from a bar of soap and couldn't care less about balanced discussions?

The LNP in QLD stalled the economy and made us an indebted pariah state that even Victorians stay away from. Since the new govt there has been a marked upswing in construction and shortage of skilled labour.....you need to ask the coal face of industry not get facts second hand from a knucklehead who has a black heart.


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## noco (19 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> That's not the point I'm making. Don't you ever get fed up listening to others whose credentials have never been tested, who wouldn't know you from a bar of soap and couldn't care less about balanced discussions?
> 
> The LNP in QLD stalled the economy and made us an indebted pariah state that even Victorians stay away from. Since the new govt there has been a marked upswing in construction and shortage of skilled labour.....you need to ask the coal face of industry not get facts second hand from a knucklehead who has a black heart.




Mate, I have given you the facts and a link to go with it but the rusted on Labor supporters just don't won't to accept the truth as to how bad the Labor Party are  at managing our finances.

You state the Labor Party are doing a great job in Queensland not according to the latest reports which state construction work is at an all time low, unemployment is up and business confidence is way down and is the state with the highest debt thanks to the Beattie/Bligh government even in good mining times they still had to sell off $18 billion in assets.....Labor is holding Queensland back.....Labor has been asleep at the wheel since coming to office.....they have no plan for the future and are stumbling in the dark......Labor has ministerial problems with people who are incapable of doing their job....They have one member of parliament who has been in strife with women, who has been kicked out of the Labor Party and in the Premiers own words "he is not fit to be a member of parliament".

The LNP wanted to sell or lease some assets to pay for Labor's mismanagement and they went to the election with a mandate from the people and the rest is history as explained in my previous post.


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## Tisme (19 December 2015)

noco said:


> Mate, I have given you the facts and a link to go with it but the rusted on Labor supporters just don't won't to accept the truth as to how bad the Labor Party are  at managing our finances.
> 
> You state the Labor Party are doing a great job in Queensland not according to the latest reports which state construction work is at an all time low, unemployment is up and business confidence is way down and is the state with the highest debt thanks to the Beattie/Bligh government even in good mining times they still had to sell off $18 billion in assets.....Labor is holding Queensland back.....Labor has been asleep at the wheel since coming to office.....they have no plan for the future and are stumbling in the dark......Labor has ministerial problems with people who are incapable of doing their job....They have one member of parliament who has been in strife with women, who has been kicked out of the Labor Party and in the Premiers own words "he is not fit to be a member of parliament".
> 
> The LNP wanted to sell or lease some assets to pay for Labor's mismanagement and they went to the election with a mandate from the people and the rest is history as explained in my previous post.




I never said Labor were doing a great job did I?


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## noco (19 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> I never said Labor were doing a great job did I?




*The LNP in QLD stalled the economy and made us an indebted pariah state that even Victorians stay away from. Since the new govt there has been a marked upswing in construction and shortage of skilled labour.....you need to ask the coal face of industry not get facts second hand from a knucklehead who has a black heart. 
*
Your words.

But you are quiet happy to defend them...I think you want 2 bob each way.


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## Tisme (20 December 2015)

noco said:


> *The LNP in QLD stalled the economy and made us an indebted pariah state that even Victorians stay away from. Since the new govt there has been a marked upswing in construction and shortage of skilled labour.....you need to ask the coal face of industry not get facts second hand from a knucklehead who has a black heart.
> *
> Your words.
> 
> But you are quiet happy to defend them...I think you want 2 bob each way.




No I am consistent with my disdain at the draconian law making and nasty politics the Newman govt brought to the table ... bunch of immature boy men.

That no way translates into your binary view that because I criticise something, the polar opposite must be the alternative.

We do live in a 3D world Noco, not a straight line with everything in between.

For an erudite man, you seem to resort too easily to your own bias and disregard the advices already given ... ie. I do not vote for Liberal, Labor nor Greens. What's more I am not wedded to Jesus, Allah, the Green Eyed Monster or any other superman, but I defend the right for people to do so and wear the consequences of their action.

That's the trouble these days, nobody respects the stupidity of others anymore.b


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## noco (23 December 2015)

The Labor Party via its off shoot GETUP are going all out to stop the expansion of the Abbott Point coal terminal in Queensland........Bill Shorten is a foundation member of GETUP and is an ex board member......GETUP is associated with the Fabian Society (communism) who's policy is central control........GETUP is also fed financially by the corrupt unions......The Greens are also behind GETUP lock, stock and barrel.

What a cocktail of disaster!!!!!!!!!


https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/30427449/donations-flow-to-abbot-point-challenge/


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## noco (23 December 2015)

Janet Alberchtsen sums up the Labor Party in 2015 with her grading on various members of the Labor Party MPs. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/d1d345073c74b8417f55319c9fc4121f

*The end-of-year report card for Labor in general, and Bill Shorten in particular, sends a potent mes*sage. The man who played a key role in bringing down two Labor leaders needs to draw his sword again: on himself.

While Labor’s class of 2015 includes a few solid performers, their work has been undermined by a team that includes failures at the highest levels. Team Shorten has utterly failed to rebuild itself as the alternative government because its entire strategy for the next election was built on opposing Tony Abbott.

Post-Abbott, Shorten is all at sea, a leader out of his depth against Malcolm Turnbull, unable to define himself or Labor. Shorten’s F grade won’t surprise anyone, certainly not those in Labor. In November last year, the Opposition Leader told the National Press Club: “Today I commit to you that Labor will be defined in 2015 by the power of our ideas.” Alas, 2015 wasn’t defined by the power of Labor’s ideas — unless you count plans for new taxes on multinationals, smokers and the rich who put their money in super. If there were other ideas, they haven’t stuck.

How did Shorten fare in 2015?

And that is Shorten’s problem. This will be remembered as the year Shorten gave this absurd response to ABC radio’s Jon Faine, who asked the Opposition Leader what he stood for: “Everybody is somebody,” Shorten muttered. That fluff defined Shorten’s year. The Labor leader has failed to confront budget problems, let alone the scourge of union corruption.

This has been the year in which Shorten — unable to sever links with even the most criminal of unions, the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union — cemented his image as Mr 1950s, the curmudgeonly conservative stuck in an era when 60 per cent of workers were union members, closed shops were common, unions routinely dictated secret deals with employers and workers from a blue-collar background could barely imagine starting up a small business or joining a profession. It’s as if Shorten has missed the arrival of modernity in the workplace where, in 2015, only 11 per cent of private sector workers and 15 per cent of all workers are in a union. Yet, under Shorten, the unions continue to pull the purse strings and the policy levers of the Australian Labor Party.

Shorten’s leadership might have fitted better somewhere between Ben Chifley and Arthur Calwell, an improvement on Doc Evatt — perhaps. But in 2015, Shorten presents as a union technocrat, relegating Labor to irrelevance as a modern political force. His personal rating of 14 per cent means he’s not even pulling in half the base that leans Labor in the most recent polls. Worse, the ACTU’s own polling shows there are now more undecided union members who Shorten can’t rely on at the ballot box.*
read more plus the readers comments......very interesting but not funny.


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## Tisme (23 December 2015)

noco said:


> Janet Alberchtsen sums up the Labor Party in 2015 with her grading on various members of the Labor Party MPs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's stupid statements like that that betraythe veneer of intelligence Janet likes to maintain. It just wreaks of kitchen table mummy and daddy indoctrination,from birth, into the hate Labor game.....which of course bleeds out into every other of her life where she hates anything that isn't agreeable to her own closed (juvenile) mind.

Of course political brainwashing is not confined to Liberal tragics.

My bet is that even at the height of sexual pleasure, Janet still has her fierce face on


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## noco (23 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> It's stupid statements like that that betraythe veneer of intelligence Janet likes to maintain. It just wreaks of kitchen table mummy and daddy indoctrination,from birth, into the hate Labor game.....which of course bleeds out into every other of her life where she hates anything that isn't agreeable to her own closed (juvenile) mind.
> 
> Of course political brainwashing is not confined to Liberal tragics.
> 
> My bet is that even at the height of sexual pleasure, Janet still has her fierce face on




Wow...Tisme to the defense of Barnacle Bill......I must have hit a nerve in your wisdom tooth for your reaction.

From the atmospheric mystery attending some of your activities, you do appear to have a misogynist trait  towards Janet Alberchsten which does not become you on this forum.

I would consider the IQ and intellect of Janet considerably higher than the majority on this forum....She is a highly recognized and respected journalist by a majority in the Australian community.

With Bill Shortens popularity rating at a low of 14% and his party ratings at something like 47% to the Coalition 53%, I would say her "F" rating of Bill Shorten is warranted....Something I am sure you cannot possibly deny...

I cannot believe you could stoop so low as to pass an opinion on Janet's sexual pleasure......You must be desperate to discredit this woman at all cost to the degrading of your own standards.


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## Logique (23 December 2015)

Thanks Noco for the de-paywalling.

With Malcolm's flip-flop 100-word sloganeering, his mealy-mouthed waffling, the nation is crying out for leadership in support of ordinary Australians - you know the ones Malcolm from his living room at Point Piper, wants to slam with a 15% GST.

Shorten is so out of his depth, it's embarassing.  I'm no great wrap for Tanya, but she couldn't be any worse than this!

Come back Paul Keating, all is forgiven.


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## Tisme (23 December 2015)

noco said:


> I cannot believe you could stoop so low as to pass an opinion on Janet's sexual pleasure......You must be desperate to discredit this woman at all cost to the degrading of your own standards.




Come now Noco you know I'd parachute from a snake's a4sehole if it got me into a low stoop. 

Hurt your feeling about Jannette did I cobber? Does we have a crush on ?


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## Tisme (23 December 2015)

Logique said:


> Shorten is so out of his depth, it's embarassing.  I'm no great wrap for Tanya, but she couldn't be any worse than this!
> 
> Come back Paul Keating, all is forgiven.




Please no Shorten and definitely no Tanya.

If we pray hard enough, do you think the will of a thousand men might bring Paul back to us?


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## noco (3 January 2016)

Does the LUG Party really understand what is best in the National interest or are they still intent on seeing Australia go further down the gurgler?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...m/news-story/12bbd9ee86c9f7159ba891692d5e3462


Labor runs up the white flag on workplace reform

    The Australian
    January 2, 2016 12:00AM
    Save
    Print 

*Enough is enough. Trade union membership is at historic lows, corruption endemic and workers have been dudded by corrupt union bosses. Yet the union movement, largely through the Labor Party, continues to wield economic and political clout far out of proportion to the 15 per cent of workers it represents. Too often, it does so in a way that ill serves its members’ interests or those of the nation. The racist and alarmist campaign against the China free-trade agreement led by the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union, for example, showed an abysmal misunderstanding of the lucrative opportunities the pact would open up for business and workers. Across the states, taxpayers face crippling interest bills on public debt because for decades union leaders forced Labor governments to expand public sector payrolls and blocked asset sales and electricity privatisation. As Bob Hawke and Paul Keating said this week, the unions have lost focus on the national economic interest.

Four days after the final report of the Royal Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption was released, it is clear that the opposition and the ACTU will not address the problems it uncovered. Bill Shorten’s meagre response has been a statement and a couple of tweets claiming he wants to fight an election on industrial relations and penalty rates. So be it. The Opposition Leader has run up the white flag and passed up his last chance to be a reforming leader in the mould of Mr Hawke, Mr Keating or John Howard.

Malcolm Turnbull, fortunately, appears committed to reform. After winning the prime ministership from Tony Abbott on the grounds of economic leadership and the need to make the case for change, Mr Turnbull now needs to invest some political capital and use his formidable communication skills to set out a comprehensive economic narrative that includes workplace reform. Wisely, he intends to restore the Australian Building and Construction Commission and set up a Registered Organisations Commission to oversee unions. If the Senate refuses, he will have plenty of ammunition to fight an election on the issue.

ACTU secretary Dave Oliver’s claim that the unions’ peak body has “zero tolerance” for corruption runs counter to his branding the royal commission “a biased and politically motivated exercise” about “prosecuting an ideological agenda to cut workplace conditions”. Dozens of the cases referred to police and prosecutors involve some of the nation’s largest unions. They also involve the misuse of millions of dollars of members’ fees from the CFMEU (120,000 members), the Australian Workers Union (100,000 members) and the Health Services Union (70,000 members). Fourteen findings were made against the AWU alone. Mr Shorten, while personally cleared, led the AWU during many of the matters in question.

Australia’s workplace relations problems run far wider. In April 2007, Paul Kelly wrote that the then Labor opposition’s policy, drafted by Julia Gillard, “with its emphasis on collective power and a vast new industrial umpire” would unwind 20 years of reform. The warning was prescient. Productivity is sluggish. The flexibility needed in modern workplaces has been stymied, especially in retailing, tourism and hospitality. It is not enough for Employment Minister Michaelia Cash to suggest the issue of Sunday penalty rates should be left to the Fair Work Commission. Excessive centralisation is part of the problem. With resources exports in a trough and the budget deeply in the red, wider reforms are needed to help kick-start another quarter century *of growth


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## Smurf1976 (3 January 2016)

I'll take economic arguments from either side of politics more seriously when they start applying the rules fairly.

Here's the latest example, this time it's IKEA ripping us all off but they're just one of many.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/busi...s/news-story/6f73d7e4eae3c91714382dba54f33154

A 3% tax rate it seems. Either make that the tax rate everyone pays or actually enforce the intent of the law and get the big boys to cough up what they owe.

If we can afford to give away money to foreign furniture companies then we should have no difficulty funding schools and hospitals first.


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## SirRumpole (3 January 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll take economic arguments from either side of politics more seriously when they start applying the rules fairly.
> 
> Here's the latest example, this time it's IKEA ripping us all off but they're just one of many.
> 
> ...




Have a straight turnover tax with no deductions. Simple and unavoidable.


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## bellenuit (3 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Have a straight turnover tax with no deductions. Simple and unavoidable.




....and would sent most companies bankrupt, particularly startups.


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## noco (3 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Have a straight turnover tax with no deductions. Simple and unavoidable.




Yes Rumpy, I agree..Flo Bejeilki-Petersen (forgive my spelling if I am wrong) promoted a 25% flat tax for all with no deductions when she was a senator.....A good idea.


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## Smurf1976 (3 January 2016)

I'd be happy if they just closed the loopholes.

Tax rate is set at whatever so that's the rate that should be paid. No workarounds and loopholes. If it's 30% then it's 30%. 

So long as we have multi-national companies paying practically no tax on their Australian operations, I fail to see the need to be concerned about things such as GST or welfare spending. If we can afford to forego $ billions in revenue then we can afford universal healthcare and so on.

If Labor had a plan to fix the mess then they'd have my vote. Same with the Coalition. As it stands now, our governments are a little too close to big business and a lot too far away from the ordinary people for my liking.


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## SirRumpole (3 January 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'd be happy if they just closed the loopholes.
> 
> Tax rate is set at whatever so that's the rate that should be paid. No workarounds and loopholes. If it's 30% then it's 30%.
> 
> ...




The loopholes come about because of the deductions businesses are allowed to claim, like interest on loans to their parent companies which pay less tax on that interest in other jurisdictions. No deductions, no tax advantage, money generated by sales in this country gets taxed here.


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## SirRumpole (3 January 2016)

bellenuit said:


> ....and would sent most companies bankrupt, particularly startups.




Depends on the tax rate, make it 10% like the GST you and I have to pay (which we don't get back) and companies would adjust.


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## bellenuit (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Depends on the tax rate, make it 10% like the GST you and I have to pay (which we don't get back) and companies would adjust.




You do realise that turnover is the net sales generated by the business, not  the profit?

So a business might have a turnover of $10M say and costs of $9.5m and you want them to pay 10% tax on their $10m turnover? So instead of them being able to use their modest profit of $0.5M to re-invest in the business, you want to tax them $1M so they end the year with an after tax loss of $0.5M in spite of having made a modest profit. 

You can only tax profits not turnover as every company will have turnover but may not have any profits or just minuscule profits. 

You may need to look at this short video and the one that follows it.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpPiyXoXNng


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## SirRumpole (4 January 2016)

bellenuit said:


> You do realise that turnover is the net sales generated by the business, not  the profit?
> 
> So a business might have a turnover of $10M say and costs of $9.5m and you want them to pay 10% tax on their $10m turnover? So instead of them being able to use their modest profit of $0.5M to re-invest in the business, you want to tax them $1M so they end the year with an after tax loss of $0.5M in spite of having made a modest profit.
> 
> ...




I'm aware of the difference between turnover and profits.

A turnover tax will favour the most efficient businesses, ie those with the lowest costs and therefore able to offer the lowest prices. The lower the prices of their goods, the less taxes the company pays. Good for the consumers, good for the economy and good for government revenue and therefore for provision of government services.


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## Tisme (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm aware of the difference between turnover and profits.
> 
> A turnover tax will favour the most efficient businesses, ie those with the lowest costs and therefore able to offer the lowest prices. The lower the prices of their goods, the less taxes the company pays. Good for the consumers, good for the economy and good for government revenue and therefore for provision of government services.




I'm for a turnover tax on the public service : the more they turnover back to the community instead of into their own pockets and their disgraceful salary sacrifice and superannuation rorts, the less super tax they pay on their underserved no risk stipends.


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## noco (4 January 2016)

There are lots of suggestions made on tax reform but you are all off topic.:topic

This thread is about the USELESS LABOR PARTY and they will stay useless so long as they have Barnacle Bill as leader and a puppet to the unions.

But off topic on a serious note, we do do need tax reform and closure of legal loop holes .....As Kerry Packer once stated "Why pay tax when you don't have to".


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## SirRumpole (4 January 2016)

noco said:


> There are lots of suggestions made on tax reform but you are all off topic.:topic
> 
> This thread is about the USELESS LABOR PARTY and they will stay useless so long as they have Barnacle Bill as leader and a puppet to the unions.




Unfortunately the Liberals are looking equally useless when it comes to tax reform...


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## Tisme (4 January 2016)

The thread is a moot one anyway, because the Labor Party are not governing.... it's News Corp and their lacky LNP's turn to stuff things up.


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## noco (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Unfortunately the Liberals are looking equally useless when it comes to tax reform...




And you don't think the dorks in the senate have anything to with preventing reform?

We need a DD in March to root out the dead wood in the senate...We don't need obstruction for obstruction sake.

The Useless Labor Party have not come up with any alternative except lift taxes and re-introduce a Carbon Dioxide and mining tax.


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## SirRumpole (4 January 2016)

noco said:


> The Useless Labor Party have not come up with any alternative except lift taxes and re-introduce a Carbon Dioxide and mining tax.




Sounds preferable to a GST increase to me...


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## noco (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds preferable to a GST increase to me...




With the GST at least one knows what tax you are paying, further more pensioners and low paid workers would have been compensated......The GST is also a tax revenue from tourist who visit Australia.

With that Labor Party useless Carbon dioxide tax it was open to exploitation....Companies could use it as an excuse to increase the the price on their products products and nobody could ever check the truth......The naive were well and truly conned and up the creek without a paddle.......The Labor Party's Carbon dioxide tax was a rip off....Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant, it is an essential part of plant life so why tax it?


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## Logique (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds preferable to a GST increase to me...



Certainly the Coalition's proposed GST increase is a game changer. Why abolish the carbon tax, only to increase the GST, what's the difference, it's still a tax grab by both sides of the house.

So why not place the following options on the table:

- increase the Medicare levy (..bet they don't)
- raise the tax bracket thresholds, if bracket creep is such an issue (..bet they don't)


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## bellenuit (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm aware of the difference between turnover and profits.
> 
> A turnover tax will favour the most efficient businesses, ie those with the lowest costs and therefore able to offer the lowest prices. The lower the prices of their goods, the less taxes the company pays. Good for the consumers, good for the economy and good for government revenue and therefore for provision of government services.




Not in the least bit true. Mass retailers (for example supermarkets) work on the basis of high turnover and low profit margins. Companies like Coles and Wollies work on markups of just a few % on high volume items (which is mainly what they sell), because they turnover their stock multiple times per year. So if they have an item (bar of chocolate say) that they purchase 100 of at $0.98 each and sell for $1 each and those are sold and replenished 100 times per year, then their turnover from that item will be $10,000 with a profit of $200. And you are saying that their tax (attributable to just that item) should be $2,000?. That would force them to increase their costs to compensate. Effectively you would need to add 10% to their markup price for them to maintain the same profit. 

You can't put a flat tax on turnover because turnover is dependent mostly on the nature of the business, not efficiency. In the above example, the supermarket only needs working capital of $98 (over and above coverage of indirect costs) to buy 100 of that chocolate item and turn it over 100 times per year (since sales are cash only) generating $10,000 in turnover. On the other hand what about a business that sells farm equipment. They might have a particular tractor that they sell just 5 of per year. That might cost them $14,000, so they sell it for $20,000. So they too have a turnover of $100,000 attributable to that item, but because they are low volume high markup, they could easily pay 10% tax on their turnover, as it would amount to $2,000. Since their gross profit was $6,000, $2,000 tax on turnover for them amounts to 33% tax of their profits, which is close to the current company tax rate. Worth noting is that their direct working capital needed to generate $100k revenue from that item is $14K, vs $98 for the high volume retailer. 

There is just no way you could use turnover as a metric for tax as you would disadvantage high volume low cost retailers at the expense of low volume high cost producers.

A final example. A small high volume retailer trims his costs through efficiency measures and passes some of the savings on to his customers. As a result he increases his turnover from $10M to $12M and his profit from $1M to $1.1M. His tax should be based on the profit increase, not on turnover increase. You would penalise him on his efficiency success by taxing him $200K more even though he has expanded his business (and all that entails) and lowered prices to consumers. So he ends $70K worse off than before he started. He would pay $30K tax on his additional profit using the current company tax system, but pay $200K more using your method. So he pays $170K more in tax on a profit increase of $100K, meaning his extra effort made him $70K worse off that he was before he made the changes.


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## SirRumpole (4 January 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Not in the least bit true...




If the government wants to tax my income, then why don't I get a deduction for my costs of living, the food I eat, the costs of transport to and from work, the rent I pay, power and water etc, ie the stuff I need to keep working and earning an income in order to pay tax ?

They are my "private" expenses according to the government, but we'll tax those as well via a GST.

 If I was a business and my costs of living go up, then so should my price (salary). If business costs go up they don't get taxed more like me, they just get bigger deductions, so there is a fundamental inequity in the way business and individuals are taxed which should be rectified.


----------



## noco (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If the government wants to tax my income, then why don't I get a deduction for my costs of living, the food I eat, the costs of transport to and from work, the rent I pay, power and water etc, ie the stuff I need to keep working and earning an income in order to pay tax ?
> 
> They are my "private" expenses according to the government, but we'll tax those as well via a GST.
> 
> If I was a business and my costs of living go up, then so should my price (salary). If business costs go up they don't get taxed more like me, they just get bigger deductions, so there is a fundamental inequity in the way business and individuals are taxed which should be rectified.




What we need is a Fabian style government where there is central control......lets have no private business..No corporate rorting.......The Government runs the show.....The Government takes over all the mining, manufacturing, agriculture and the banks... .no tax ..no worries.....No bloody unions.....work 10 hours a day for low pay....We all live in poverty in government run high rise units.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 January 2016)

noco said:


> What we need is a Fabian style government where there is central control......lets have no private business..No corporate rorting.......The Government runs the show.....The Government takes over all the mining, manufacturing, agriculture and the banks... .no tax ..no worries.....No bloody unions.....work 10 hours a day for low pay....We all live in poverty in government run high rise units.




Noco ! What has happened to you ? Have you seen the light !


----------



## bellenuit (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If the government wants to tax my income, then why don't I get a deduction for my costs of living, the food I eat, the costs of transport to and from work, the rent I pay, power and water etc, ie the stuff I need to keep working and earning an income in order to pay tax ?
> 
> They are my "private" expenses according to the government, but we'll tax those as well via a GST.
> 
> If I was a business and my costs of living go up, then so should my price (salary). If business costs go up they don't get taxed more like me, they just get bigger deductions, so there is a fundamental inequity in the way business and individuals are taxed which should be rectified.




I think you need to study Economics 000 and Business 000.


----------



## noco (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Noco ! What has happened to you ? Have you seen the light !




No, I ain't seen the light on the hill for 60 years....I think the Fabians took it and sent it back to Russia.

Shhhhh!!!!!....Don't spoil it for me Rumpy, I was hoping to get an invitation to join the Fabians so I can infiltrate them.

I think I am going slowly insane from all this political BS.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 January 2016)

bellenuit said:


> I think you need to study Economics 000 and Business 000.




Economics 000 is written by economists and Business 000 is written by businessmen for their own purposes and benefit.

Real people don't have to live by their rules.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 January 2016)

noco said:


> I think I am going slowly insane from all this political BS.




Mate, you got there a long time ago !



You left that wide open for me old chap.


----------



## bellenuit (5 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Economics 000 is written by economists and Business 000 is written by businessmen for their own purposes and benefit.
> 
> Real people don't have to live by their rules.




And Science 000 is written by scientists, Math 000 by Mathematicians and Medicine 000 by Doctors for their own purposes too. 

Real people don't have to live by their rules.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 January 2016)

bellenuit said:


> And Science 000 is written by scientists, Math 000 by Mathematicians and Medicine 000 by Doctors for their own purposes too.
> 
> Real people don't have to live by their rules.




I wouldn't be equating business or economics with science.

There is no E=mc squared in business or economics, they are what people want them to be, and although there are economic "laws" such as supply and demand these are variable and subject to the whims of the consumer and other factors and cannot be considered absolute.


----------



## noco (5 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Mate, you got there a long time ago !
> 
> 
> 
> You left that wide open for me old chap.




Well Rumpy, $hit happens when you get older.....But thank God I am agnostic and still have my marbles.


----------



## Tisme (5 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Economics 000 is written by economists and Business 000 is written by businessmen for their own purposes and benefit.
> 
> Real people don't have to live by their rules.




the 3001 subjects are just entry level, moving through 3002, onwards the rules and laws become very subjective and tend to quash the concrete rules inferred in 3001. I certainly wouldn't put my house on orientation and first year core axioms and theorems in an analogue environment.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> the 3001 subjects are just entry level, moving through 3002, onwards the rules and laws become very subjective and tend to quash the concrete rules inferred in 3001. I certainly wouldn't put my house on orientation and first year core axioms and theorems in an analogue environment.




My point exactly !


----------



## bellenuit (5 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> the 3001 subjects are just entry level, moving through 3002, onwards the rules and laws become very subjective and tend to quash the concrete rules inferred in 3001. I certainly wouldn't put my house on orientation and first year core axioms and theorems in an analogue environment.




Ah, obfuscation at its best.


----------



## Tisme (5 January 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Ah, obfuscation at its best.





Well I think it's only fair that if you use some of the put down cards to denigrate another player, the rest of the pack should be available for use too.

Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if we could predict economics and the markets


----------



## noco (27 January 2016)

Same old Labor Party...The same old back door dirty deals.....when will they ever change?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...u/news-story/7e06eb1b393cc45df2257b328cfe9f09

*Angry ALP members in Wills are calling on Bill Shorten to intervene to block a deal between leaders of several ethnic blocs and his old union, the Australian Workers Union, designed to help secure the seat for former Rudd government security adviser and ex-SBS executive Peter Khalil at the expense of his policy director, Anna-Maria Arabia.

Along with hurting Ms Arabia’s chances, the deal leaves venture capitalist and think tank founder Josh Funder high and dry by allocating about 180 Lebanese Christian and Kurdish votes, as well as a bloc loyal to MP David Feeney, to Mr Khalil.

The pact boosts Mr Khalil’s chances of finishing first in the local ballot, creating leeway for the party’s public office selection committee to endorse him as the preferred Right candidate to contest the seat once held by Bob Hawke.

Grassroots members in the seat, which has one of the more *active Labor membership bases in the country, are desperately trying to unpick the deal by appealing to the Opposition Leader to intervene and send the contest to the party’s national executive.

Opponents of Mr Khalil, a sec*urity specialist who spent nine months in Iraq helping to establish the post-war defence ministry, are using his relatively hawkish and pro-Israel views to dent his standing among those sections of the 800-strong membership that hail from the Middle East. That line of reasoning has not been enough to unpick the deal and he has secured the support of a large bloc of Maronite Lebanese and Kurdish votes in the seat.

Under the deal, these votes and the Feeney bloc will boost Mr Khalil’s tally by about 180 votes. His victory would effectively put another AWU-aligned MP in parliament and prevent the Stephen Conroy-aligned Mehmet Tillem winning the ballot.

In exchange, the union has had to give someone from within these three blocs one of its seats in preselections for the 2018 or 2022 state elections.

The deal has sparked a grassroots revolt with members, and candidates, complaining that a backroom carve-up of seats is anathema to the kind of democratic ALP Mr Shorten says he supports. “It’s the adjoining seat and it’s his union that’s signed the deal,’’ one longstanding branch member said, calling for intervention from the federal leader.

He said the seat was highly vulnerable to the Greens and a demoralised membership that had a candidate foisted on them was not a recipe for defending it.

Another said: “People are absolutely appalled and some federal MPs want Bill to stand up and make a call here.

“There is only so long he can stand around and do nothing.”

However, sending the pre*selection to the national executive hardly represents a more democratic outcome, although supporters of this option say it would be preferable to the “charade” the preselection now resembled.

*


----------



## noco (3 February 2016)

I rarely do this but I am going to give a bouquet to the Queensland Government for introducing new lock out laws and closing times for night clubs and pubs.....I cannot understand why the LNP want to oppose it.....Alcohol fueled violence must be stopped. 


https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/30715493/qld-governments-proposed-lockout-laws/

*LOCKOUT LAWS PROPOSED FOR QUEENSLAND

    Last drinks at 2am state-wide


    Nightclub precincts can apply to have a 3am last drinks extension, but then must impose 1am lockout


    All venues able to stay open beyond 2am to serve food, non-alcoholic drinks and provide entertainment


    Strong and "rapid consumption" drinks, like shots, banned after midnight


    If passed, will come into effect on July 1.*


----------



## SirRumpole (3 February 2016)

noco said:


> I rarely do this but I am going to give a bouquet to the Queensland Government for introducing new lock out laws and closing times for night clubs and pubs.....I cannot understand why the LNP want to oppose it.....Alcohol fueled violence must be stopped.
> 
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/30715493/qld-governments-proposed-lockout-laws/
> ...





Yes, good on the Qld government.

Not so useless after all ?


----------



## noco (3 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, good on the Qld government.
> 
> Not so useless after all ?




Not so....The Queensland Government is a useless as t*t$ on a bull.

They have stagnated the growth of Queensland.....Construction work is down 30 %...Business confidence is at an all time low....Growth rates of all the states, Queensland is second on the bottom of the ladder...The Government is run by the CFMEU ...nuff said....The Queensland Labor Government have no plan as to how they will pay  back the Beattie/Bligh bad debt of $80 billion without selling or leasing the assets....They are quite content to ramble along paying $11 Billion a year in interest alone.......They won the election 12 months ago with Green preferences.....They did not expect to win and now they have it, they don't know what to do with it.


----------



## dutchie (3 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, good on the Qld government.
> 
> Not so useless after all ?




Agree.

Credit where credit’s due.


----------



## boofhead (3 February 2016)

I would think the main reason LNP would not introduce such regulation is they are generally against regluation and prefer people to make the choices themselves.


----------



## noco (30 March 2016)

The Labor Party are really clutching at straws now  in conjunction with the CFMEU  with their campaign against bringing back the ABCC to curb the unions rorting, intimidation, threats, bullying and extortion as proven from the TURP......100 officials charged????????......the unions have sent the cost of building up by 30% and Albo says no no no you must not bring these bad boys into line.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...e/news-story/4d5f53ba4a79be9b6993932f8b4aa9fd


----------



## SirRumpole (30 March 2016)

noco said:


> The Labor Party are really clutching at straws now  in conjunction with the CFMEU  with their campaign against bringing back the ABCC to curb the unions rorting, intimidation, threats, bullying and extortion as proven from the TURP......100 officials charged????????......the unions have sent the cost of building up by 30% and Albo says no no no you must not bring these bad boys into line.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...e/news-story/4d5f53ba4a79be9b6993932f8b4aa9fd




If the CFMEU is so bad, why doesn't the government just de-register them ?


----------



## noco (26 April 2016)

Same old Labor Party.....same old 2007/2013 Rudd/Glillard/Rudd socialist policies..... tax big and spend big...borrow more....don't worry about tomorrow.....Fabian central control of the media, banks, mining, agriculture and manufacturing what is left of it thanks to the unions.  


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/72a0c48672eb7c86961cec92bd979dbe

*Shorten’s credibility deficit masks a bigger problem for Labor, a party that has yet to address the reasons for its 2013 defeat and consequently fails to recognise the magnitude of the deficit challenge.

Shorten’s assertion that big spending-led economic growth will get us out of this mess assumes Australia will buck the low-growth trend apparent across the developed world. It also assumes that Labor’s decision to go to war with the wealth-creators will not damage the economy. Cutting personal and corporate tax would be one of the best ways to stimulate growth yet Labor pledges to do the opposite.

The paradox of the current Labor leadership is that it presents itself as a forward-facing party in touch with the modern world while its policy settings reflect the delusions of the early 1970s. A Whitlamesque fixation on social spending ignores the challenge of where the money to pay for it might come from.

The cost of the demand-driven higher education system Labor had a big hand in creating is running out of control, yet the party seems oblivious to the problem and is devoid of plans to fix it. In schools we spend 60 per cent more per child than we did 20 years ago, yet education standards have fallen. Labor’s solution is to spend more money still.

The incentive to rationalise the health sector — a reform long overdue — would be deadened by Labor’s plans to pour in yet more money. Ditto the welfare system, where it is not just money that gets wasted but lives.*

Read more.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 April 2016)

Yawn...


----------



## moXJO (26 April 2016)

Labor pumped in funds to schools and kids performed worse when tested.
This whole idea that big spending makes it better is a farce without real reform. You want bang for your buck- not for your bucks to go bang.
Promising big spending and more tax seems to be labors catch cry.


----------



## noco (26 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yawn...




Yes, we can all see you are going to sleep at the wheel.

Best you get out of your pedal car and get some fresh air.


----------



## noco (3 May 2016)

Chris Bowen could not run a chook raffle economically if he tried.

He must be computer illiterate to say the least let alone know how to use a calculator and he is the one who wants to be the future treasurer.

His tobacco tax is a repeat of Swanies mining tax when he spent the money he did not raise.

Labor has a bad history of poor economic management and they have not changed and never seem to learn.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bud...e/news-story/6f6ba814b9b919bca5286db73d7b2eb1


Budget 2016: Labor funds for Gonski up in smoke

    The Australian
    May 3, 2016 12:00AM
    Save
    Print
    David Crowe
    Political correspondent
https://plus.google.com/101091338212849916588



*An election fight on economic management has erupted over a $19.5 billion funding hole in Labor’s plans to pay for its education policy, ahead of a federal budget that has thrown Bill *Shorten on the defensive over tax cuts for more than two million workers.

Treasury documents, seen by The Australian, reveal a massive gap in Labor’s plan to fund election promises with a steep rise in tobacco excise, showing it would raise $28.2bn over a decade rather than the $47.7bn the opposition claims.

In a dramatic upset on the eve of the federal election, the Treasury estimates forced Labor’s spokesman Chris Bowen to explain his election costings just as he sought to go on the attack against the government over the fairness of its budget reforms.*


----------



## CanOz (3 May 2016)

noco said:


> Chris Bowen could not run a chook raffle economically if he tried.
> 
> He must be computer illiterate to say the least let alone know how to use a calculator and he is the one who wants to be the future treasurer.
> 
> ...




Back of the napkin mate only off by 20 Billion....notice how they always over estimate the tax revenue and then under estimate the cost, that's why they're all unionists and not business people, they couldn't run a successful business so they need to leach off business and lead political parties... :1zhelp:

This country is stuffed though, if the labor party get in, its all over for business (i.e. employers). If the CFMEU and the warfies join, they'll completely root this country into the ground. I was talking to a mate that owns a big construction business here, he was saying that his workers actually get height money, regardless of the fact that his company digs holes, they go down, not up!


----------



## dutchie (3 May 2016)

noco said:


> Chris Bowen could not run a chook raffle economically if he tried.
> 
> He must be computer illiterate to say the least let alone know how to use a calculator and he is the one who wants to be the future treasurer.
> 
> ...






Labors' policy has always been that there is no need to be able to fund any proposed policy.


The trick is to promise big spending policies just before being ousted from government and then claim that the Coalition are making cuts to that policy when they can't fund it when they (the Coalition) are in power.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2016)

dutchie said:


> Labors' policy has always been that there is no need to be able to fund any proposed policy.
> 
> 
> The trick is to promise big spending policies just before being ousted from government and then claim that the Coalition are making cuts to that policy when they can't fund it when they (the Coalition) are in power.




What cuts are those? Apparently nothing good gets through the senate so I'm confused?


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2016)

CanOz said:


> . I was talking to a mate that owns a big construction business here, he was saying that his workers actually get height money, regardless of the fact that his company digs holes, they go down, not up!




And he would know whatever the rorts, his competition is also a reluctant, but obsequious victim too. That he would no doubt add profit to the higher cost and pass it on to the developer is never mentioned. The fact that he owns a big business says that he knows the rules and is successful because of them.

The eba and unions can be infuriating because of the inconvenience, but moreso the impudence of someone telling you what you can and cannot do ....just like the state licencing, the federal rules, the developer who wont pay, the Australian Standards the BCA, the certifiers, etc.


----------



## sptrawler (5 May 2016)

Bill says he will deliver $71billion in savings, I personally don't think he could deliver a pizza, but that's only my opinion.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-private-college-savings-20160505-gon549.html

Let's see how this all pans out.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2016)

How it pans out will depend on how well the government can argue the economic merit of its corporate tax cut.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2016)

Well here we go, Labor throw more money at Teachers, whether they can teach or not.

“We will fight this as an education election. We will put the funding on the table to make sure every teacher in Australia gets the recognition and the support to back up what they do every day.” He has promised to implement full Gonski funding if Labor is successful on the predicted poll date of July 2.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fed...n/news-story/aa692a3de5c0598c6a511b0612808812

I hope they throw as much money, towards every other worker,

It isn't as though the teachers, are asked to re invent the wheel, jeez why not just sack the ones who can't teach?

It would happen in every other facet of industry, if you are a plumber or a sparky get on with it, if you can't achieve the outcomes you're toast.


----------



## Tisme (11 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Well here we go, Labor throw more money at Teachers, whether they can teach or not.
> 
> “We will fight this as an education election. We will put the funding on the table to make sure every teacher in Australia gets the recognition and the support to back up what they do every day.” He has promised to implement full Gonski funding if Labor is successful on the predicted poll date of July 2.
> 
> ...




agreed


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Well here we go, Labor throw more money at Teachers, whether they can teach or not.
> 
> “We will fight this as an education election. We will put the funding on the table to make sure every teacher in Australia gets the recognition and the support to back up what they do every day.” He has promised to implement full Gonski funding if Labor is successful on the predicted poll date of July 2.
> 
> ...




Sure, sack teachers that don't perform, but if you only pay peanuts then you get monkeys.

Good teachers deserve to be rewarded, same as anyone else.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, sack teachers that don't perform, but if you only pay peanuts then you get monkeys.
> 
> Good teachers deserve to be rewarded, same as anyone else.




Well from what I have seen, teachers start at about $80k. Now they work monday to friday from 09.00 to 15.30 with an hour for lunch. That makes 5hr 30 minutes, lets say 6 hrs, 5 days x 6 hrs = 30 hrs/week.

Now lets remove the twelve weeks leave/ year i.e 52 - 12 =40 weeks.

Now 40 x 30 = 1200 hrs/ year, i.e $80,000/ 1200 = $66/ hr.

If they are on $100,000 =$83/hr.

That is just rough figures, but there are things like student free days etc, I don't think they are paid too bad.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## noco (12 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Well from what I have seen, teachers start at about $80k. Now they work monday to friday from 09.00 to 15.30 with an hour for lunch. That makes 5hr 30 minutes, lets say 6 hrs, 5 days x 6 hrs = 30 hrs/week.
> 
> Now lets remove the twelve weeks leave/ year i.e 52 - 12 =40 weeks.
> 
> ...




SP, in all fairness, I live next door to a primary school teacher now in her early 50's....She is off to school each morning at 7.15 am with less than 15 minutes drive......She arrives home around 4 pm but she tells me her day has not ended as she then prepares her next day of school at home.

She often tells me the trauma she goes through with children who do not want to accept discipline in the class room and how they disrupt other children and how one or two tell her to get f****d...

Who would really want to be a teacher under those conditions.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Well from what I have seen, teachers start at about $80k. Now they work monday to friday from 09.00 to 15.30 with an hour for lunch. That makes 5hr 30 minutes, lets say 6 hrs, 5 days x 6 hrs = 30 hrs/week.
> 
> Now lets remove the twelve weeks leave/ year i.e 52 - 12 =40 weeks.
> 
> ...




This table indicates that teacher's pay (NSW) starts from around $48k and that $80k is actually pretty close to the top pay scale.

https://www.det.nsw.edu.au/media/do...nts/19612StandardsbasepayFAQsNovember2015.pdf


----------



## CanOz (12 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Well from what I have seen, teachers start at about $80k. Now they work monday to friday from 09.00 to 15.30 with an hour for lunch. That makes 5hr 30 minutes, lets say 6 hrs, 5 days x 6 hrs = 30 hrs/week.
> 
> Now lets remove the twelve weeks leave/ year i.e 52 - 12 =40 weeks.
> 
> ...




I agree that teachers should be paid very well. I know a retired math and science teacher. He just recently retired. He is an avid fly fisherman, so we had lots of time together and we talked allot about his teaching. He was very well qualified, had a great work ethic and was passionate about his job and very aware of the net effect of it on the future of the kids and the country. He didn't work 40 hours a week, as through the week he was busy almost every evening doing preparation or marking tests/essays etc. He was working a solid 60 hours a week during school sessions.

Teachers are allot like Sr. Managers/Leaders in my view. There are some outstanding ones, ones that will go on to lead divisions, plants or organisations. They respond well to incentives and thrive on being the best and measure their own success by how well their people are doing. They get excited to see people 'get it' and learn to do things in new and exciting ways. They're almost magic in the way they engage their people and they're the kind of leader that "you just want to work for". 

There are also some managers that are really hopeless, they're not happy in the their roles and that is felt by their people. Their people become unmotivated, disengaged and the performance of the team towards their plan fails consistently. Organisations have choices with these managers/leaders. They can move them, retrain/move them, or let them go if they can find out what they're really good at. The higher performing leaders will be remunerated differently in good businesses, otherwise they'll look for work elsewhere. I was fortunate enough to be  remunerated very well as my team met/exceeded the plan. Had i not been , i had offers from across the business to run other plants in other regions.

With teachers its the same, there are outstanding performers that are very self motivated. There are poor performers as well. I agree though that there needs to be differentiation between the high performers and the ones that consistently fail to perform and their students are suffering for it. I was also at the mercy of one such teacher when i was in my high school years. I was lucky to have one of the best math teachers in the province for my year 9. He was tough but fair. He made it fun to learn, he loved his students and was crazy about math, especially algos. I did very well in that class once i realized that he expected his homework done!! When i went to year 10 though, i had a horrible teacher for maths that took 0 interest in his students. You could tell he had no passion for the subject. He would just roll up and then give us tons of stuff to do out of the textbook without explaining it. I failed math that year. He was fired 5 years later after parents complained their kids, who were once great math students, were failing his classes. 

Teachers need fair evaluations to ensure they're performing, teaching the correct subjects, remaining passionate about the job, totally engaged in the role. I'm not sure this is done everywhere. The good ones need to rewarded differently to the ones that are not performing.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> This table indicates that teacher's pay (NSW) starts from around $48k and that $80k is actually pretty close to the top pay scale.
> 
> https://www.det.nsw.edu.au/media/do...nts/19612StandardsbasepayFAQsNovember2015.pdf




Well here is the W.A summary.

http://det.wa.edu.au/careers/detcms...ment-conditions/salaries-and-teaching-levels/

This is a 2014 report.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2016)

CanOz said:


> I agree that teachers should be paid very well. I know a retired math and science teacher. He just recently retired. He is an avid fly fisherman, so we had lots of time together and we talked allot about his teaching. He was very well qualified, had a great work ethic and was passionate about his job and very aware of the net effect of it on the future of the kids and the country. He didn't work 40 hours a week, as through the week he was busy almost every evening doing preparation or marking tests/essays etc. He was working a solid 60 hours a week during school sessions.
> 
> Teachers are allot like Sr. Managers/Leaders in my view. There are some outstanding ones, ones that will go on to lead divisions, plants or organisations. They respond well to incentives and thrive on being the best and measure their own success by how well their people are doing. They get excited to see people 'get it' and learn to do things in new and exciting ways. They're almost magic in the way they engage their people and they're the kind of leader that "you just want to work for".
> 
> ...




Agree with that, there are some very good teachers and there are some poor ones, same as any profession.
The good ones usually move up to become leaders, the poor ones stay at their level of incompetence, as with most professions.

Teaching is a bit like motivational speaking, if the presenter isn't interested in their job, no one listening will be interested in what they have to say.

It is a job that is more about personal engagement and presentation, rather than technical ability. IMO

I was offered a TAFE teaching job after I retired, I asked the senior lecturer at the interview how much time is required to write the lessons.
His response was, the modules are already written, you just present it, as long as you know the subject matter it is 90% presentation.


----------



## noco (12 May 2016)

Barnacle Bill is dreaming again.....Nothing to be gained from his education rhetoric for 80 years.....Lies ..lies  and more lies.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...d/news-story/f024076108270fd0a0400945ee580674

*Parents frustrated by their children’s (and in some cases their children’s teachers’) inability to spell will be underwhelmed by Bill Shorten’s faux promise that Labor’s promised $37.3 billion spending splurge on schools would produce an economic dividend — in 2095. Such a ludicrous, extravagant plan not only defies fiscal reason, it fails to address the pressing shortcomings of our education system.*


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2016)

noco said:


> Barnacle Bill is dreaming again.....Nothing to be gained from his education rhetoric for 80 years.....Lies ..lies  and more lies.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...d/news-story/f024076108270fd0a0400945ee580674
> 
> *Parents frustrated by their children’s (and in some cases their children’s teachers’) inability to spell will be underwhelmed by Bill Shorten’s faux promise that Labor’s promised $37.3 billion spending splurge on schools would produce an economic dividend ”” in 2095. Such a ludicrous, extravagant plan not only defies fiscal reason, it fails to address the pressing shortcomings of our education system.*




If you are going to quote from subscriber only publications would you at least say who wrote the article.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2016)

noco said:


> SP, in all fairness, I live next door to a primary school teacher now in her early 50's....She is off to school each morning at 7.15 am with less than 15 minutes drive......She arrives home around 4 pm but she tells me her day has not ended as she then prepares her next day of school at home.
> 
> .




She sounds like a farmer friend of mine.

My father in law was a headmaster, he gave it away, because teachers were finding the only problem with the job, where the kids.


----------



## noco (12 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> If you are going to quote from subscriber only publications would you at least say who wrote the article.





*As reported today, the Australian Council for Educational Research is the latest organisation to point out why spending more is not the answer to better educational outcomes. The challenge, identified by ACER chief executive Geoff Masters in a new report, Five Challenges in Australian School Education, is better application of existing government funding based on evidence-based strategies. Three-quarters of Australia’s fastest growing industries need graduates with strong science, technology, engineering and maths skills. Secondary students’ participation in physics and advanced maths, however, has declined steadily for 20 years. Fewer than 10 per cent of Year 12 students study advanced maths. Fewer than 15 per cent take physics.
*

Perhaps if you had been astute enough  and read the complete  article you would have read the report was by Geoff Masters...

Are you OK with that now?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2016)

noco said:


> *As reported today, the Australian Council for Educational Research is the latest organisation to point out why spending more is not the answer to better educational outcomes. The challenge, identified by ACER chief executive Geoff Masters in a new report, Five Challenges in Australian School Education, is better application of existing government funding based on evidence-based strategies. Three-quarters of Australia’s fastest growing industries need graduates with strong science, technology, engineering and maths skills. Secondary students’ participation in physics and advanced maths, however, has declined steadily for 20 years. Fewer than 10 per cent of Year 12 students study advanced maths. Fewer than 15 per cent take physics.
> *
> 
> Perhaps if you had been astute enough  and read the complete  article you would have read the report was by Geoff Masters...
> ...




The article was subscriber only and I'm not a subscriber to the Australian so I could hardly read the complete article could I , but thank you for the author's name.

Quoting selecting parts of a full article that is not publicly available is not informative, however the low rates of maths and science studies is a worry. Maybe somewhere in that article the author provides a reason why this is the case. IMHO maths and science should be compulsory to Year 12.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The article was subscriber only and I'm not a subscriber to the Australian so I could hardly read the complete article could I , but thank you for the author's name.
> 
> Quoting selecting parts of a full article that is not publicly available is not informative, however the low rates of maths and science studies is a worry. Maybe somewhere in that article the author provides a reason why this is the case. IMHO maths and science should be compulsory to Year 12.




Maybe the problem is that maths and science are hard subjects.

Same as why there is a decline in uni students doing engineering, science and maths courses, but there are now 50% of students going on to university.

What subjects are they doing?


----------



## SirRumpole (13 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the problem is that maths and science are hard subjects.




_"We choose to go to the moon and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard_" (JFK).


That's the point really we are becoming lazy, and this is where we need teachers that make hard subjects easy because they know how to explain complex ideas. So it comes down to teacher practical experience, ie get some engineers to teach engineering so they can relate their actual experiences to their students rather than just book learning. (As you said in another thread which I saw after I posted this).



> Same as why there is a decline in uni students doing engineering, science and maths courses, but there are now 50% of students going on to university.
> 
> What subjects are they doing?




Social Science probably.


----------



## moXJO (13 May 2016)

Lack of teachers actually teaching or explaining the subject material. If students don't get it- tough luck and move on.


----------



## noco (16 May 2016)

Barnacle Bill says his team is united........It does not appear so when 17 of his team are going against  him on border control...The Green will have a say as well when they form a coalition with Labor on a hung parliament.....

Bill says there will be no deal with the Greens under a government I lead.....Now where have I heard that saying before?

The people smugglers are already gearing up to start again.  


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1463353193627


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the problem is that maths and science are hard subjects.
> 
> Same as why there is a decline in uni students doing engineering, science and maths courses, but there are now 50% of students going on to university.
> 
> What subjects are they doing?





Just to re ignite my favourite dislike, of sending people to uni, just because you haven't got a job for them.

Then blaming the lack of remuneration for the pi$$ poor outcomes.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...ammed-over-atar-leniency-20160530-gp71qi.html

Labors policy of keeping every one in school forever, is blowing up in our faces.IMO


----------



## Tisme (31 May 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Just to re ignite my favourite dislike, of sending people to uni, just because you haven't got a job for them.
> 
> Then blaming the lack of remuneration for the pi$$ poor outcomes.
> 
> ...




I think people should be educated on how gaining a teaching qualification in no way guarantees a teaching position, let alone permanency. 

Schools are run very much as a strict by the book mentality, which relegates naturally analytical and mouthy males to the manual arts, maths and IT subjects, where they have a better chance of escaping the imbedded equivalent of a school Khansaa Brigade (what's in a name ).

Contrary to public opinions of teachers carrying out parental roles, in fact they are disciplined and shamed if they make the mistake of taking an interest in individual basket case children, if they chastise the kids for poor behaviour, if they touch a student, if they use non Khansaa approved language, if they innovate, if they exceed KPIs to the shame of their cohorts, etc


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2016)

It looks like another Labor brain fart, has hit the fan, sounds like the gonski report opened up some scams.IMO

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/s...-wa-due-to-bogus-courses-20160719-gq97tk.html

Here is an extract of one persons opinion.

He said Gonski education reforms began a privatisation process that included the outsourcing of many VET courses, but the regulator had not kept up with the ensuing proliferation of private providers.

"They are paying these private RTOs as they are gutting Tafe," he said.

I wonder who is supplying the private RTO's.lol


----------



## noco (21 July 2016)

sptrawler said:


> It looks like another Labor brain fart, has hit the fan, sounds like the gonski report opened up some scams.IMO
> 
> http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/s...-wa-due-to-bogus-courses-20160719-gq97tk.html
> 
> ...




Gonski was never properly funded by the useless Labor Party......The world's greatest  treasurer, Swannie, was relying on  the money from the Mineral Resources Tax to fund Gonski....Money that he did not receive.....It cost more to administer than the money received.


----------



## noco (21 July 2016)

The useless Palazczuk Labor state Government in Queensland has created more jobs in the Public sector than in the private sector......8000 in the public arena and 6000 in the private.

Unemployment in Queensland is way above the national average.

The state debt is going up and up.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...r/news-story/e0cb0be63c82a370e153196d9fab5b85

*After shuffling debt between the general government ledger and the balance sheets of state-owned corporations rather than cutting spending to reduce Queensland’s debt Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk and Treasurer Curtis Pitt are continuing to spend up big.*


----------



## noco (21 July 2016)

The useless Labor Party just never seem to get things right......The push in South Australia for renewable energy is costing ten times more than the Eastern states....

Power from Wind and Solar Power is far more expensive than power generated from coal fired power stations.

I hope the useless Queensland state Labor Government does not follow suit of their cohorts in South Australia. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...t/news-story/21f55240943a306feacf2e48eed0f826

*Energy crises in South Australia and Tasmania have shown that unilateral state-based renewable energy measures were distorting the national market and could trigger damaging price surges in eastern states, one of Australia’s leading energy specialists has warned.

The head of energy policy at the Grattan Institute public policy think tank, Tony Wood, said *governments might have to *consider paying subsidies to keep back-up power sources such as gas-fired electricity available, even if they were only used *occasionally.

Mr Wood also said moves from Victoria and Queensland to shift to 40 and 50 per cent renewable generation would increase power prices and volatility in the network on the eastern seaboard.

It comes as energy industry *insiders agree a South Australian-style scenario, where prices have surged regularly from under $100 per MWh to over $1000, was possible in eastern states without *reforms to the national market.

“We see it as a risk,” an executive from one electricity generator told The Australian.

The alarming comments came as the part-owner of South *Australia’s electricity distribution network said governments needed to focus on developing more *reliable back-up power sources to avoid price spikes.*


----------



## drsmith (21 July 2016)

Fact checking the election: How do the records of the Coalition and Labor compare?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-30/fact-checking-the-election-2016/7536484

The overall result in no surprise.

Labor talks more crap than the Coalition.


----------



## orr (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> Gonski was never properly funded by the useless Labor Party......The world's greatest  treasurer, Swannie, was relying on  the money from the Mineral Resources Tax to fund Gonski....Money that he did not receive.....It cost more to administer than the money received.




The Australian treasury now receives how much for each tonne of Liquid Natural Gas we export?


----------



## noco (21 July 2016)

orr said:


> The Australian treasury now receives how much for each tonne of Liquid Natural Gas we export?




The export commodity prices of our resources is based on supply and demand...

How much do receive for our iron ore, coal and nickel?

They are all down ATM.


----------



## orr (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> The export commodity prices of our resources is based on supply and demand...
> 
> How much do receive for our iron ore, coal and nickel?
> 
> They are all down ATM.




So narrowing to LNG, I ask again, with your imperative, 'down to what?


----------



## noco (21 July 2016)

orr said:


> So narrowing to LNG, I ask again, with your imperative, 'down to what?




Down to what?????????????

I am afraid I do not understand what you are talking about.

"PLEASE EXPLAIN"


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> The export commodity prices of our resources is based on supply and demand...
> 
> How much do receive for our iron ore, coal and nickel?
> 
> They are all down ATM.




As I posted a couple of years ago, in a discussion with Sydboy, we should be charging a tax on tonnage or volume, not on profits.

Then whatever the seller or buyer agree is a fair price doesn't matter, we get a tax on the amount they extract.

The super profits tax was stupid, no one is making a super profit now, but we are giving away more resources than ever.

This is the dumbest period in our history.IMO We are selling our resources at give away prices, no one is making anything from it, we are just digging it up to give to someone at cost. dumb,dumb,dumb.

Our resources are the cheapest to extract, so a tax on tonnage wouldn't adversely affect the competitivenes. IMO

The problem with a super profits tax is, we can't even get the big companies to pay tax, so how the hell were we going to make them pay a super profits tax? dumb, dumb, dumb

Jeez I'm a pleb and can see how dumb it is, most Aussies can probably see the same, it isn't rocket science.
How stupid do pollies think we are.


----------



## noco (18 August 2016)

Queensland is going backwards under the Labor Palaszczuk Government......They have become anti business.....Palaszczuk promised JOBS....JOBS....JOBS.

14,000 new jobs since coming to office......8000 extra public servants costing the state billions extra each year....6000 private enterprise jobs......What a disgraceful performance.


http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/com...iness-sign-in-queensland-20160816-gqu18d.html

*A number of harmful and irrational decisions from the Palaszczuk Government has those looking to invest in our state scratching their heads and looking to invest their billions elsewhere.

It is an issue all Queenslanders need to be very concerned about.
Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk.
Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk. Photo: Tertius Pickard

It has become clear in the eyes of the business community the Annastacia Palaszczuk-led government is anti-business and anti-development.

Put simply, the Palaszczuk Labor Government has thrown up the "closed for business" sign, which not only has ramifications for our economy but also for the way the state is viewed.
Related Content

    Government to consider economic potential of State-owned land

Deputy Premier Jackie Trad shocked the business community recently after she threatened to "call in" the $800 million West Village residential and retail development on a whim to appease the Greens in her South Brisbane electorate.*


----------



## noco (19 August 2016)

Does Bill Shorten and Chris Bowen understand simple economics?

Does Bill Shorten and his socialists MP's have any concern for the National Interest of Australia and how  they are heading this nation down the road to ruin?

The answer is NO and NO.

With Labor it is all about point scoring and  how they can make the government look bad.

So I say to Bill Shorten, how about playing the right game in the interest of all Australians.   

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tory/303b345c5ee405cf0284422d60d5a1e1?login=1


*Australia’s debt could blow out by more than $100 billion if the budget is wrong in its prediction that the economy will return to pre-crisis growth and the *Turnbull government is unable to win Senate support for all of its outstanding savings *measures.

An analysis prepared by Deloitte Access Economics shows the vulnerability of the debt outlook to both the government’s failure to get budget savings passed through the parliament and to the reliability of Treasury’s economic forecasts.

“Consistently since 2011, Australia has budgeted that things wouldn’t get worse in China and that there would be enough bipartisanship to pass things in the Senate,” Deloitte Access partner Chris Richardson told The Australian.

“In practice, neither of those two things has come to pass and the risk is that it stays that way. China has disappointed and so has bipartisanship.”

The Turnbull government is putting pressure on Labor to *approve long-blocked savings measures when parliament resumes, following warnings from ratings agency S & P Global that Australia’s AAA rating is in jeopardy.

Reserve Bank governor Glenn Stevens has also called for “a more hard-nosed conversation” about putting public *finances onto a sustainable footing, or else they would be forced by a crisis.*


----------



## Tisme (19 August 2016)

noco said:


> Does Bill Shorten and Chris Bowen understand simple economics?
> 
> Does Bill Shorten and his socialists MP's have any concern for the National Interest of Australia and how  they are heading this nation down the road to ruin?
> 
> ...




Where was you national interest when Abbott was being a belligerent prick to the Gillard govt? Back then it was good sport and we behaved like this fella


----------



## noco (19 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> Where was you national interest when Abbott was being a belligerent prick to the Gillard govt? Back then it was good sport and we behaved like this fella





No No  No Tisme, once again you have got the bull by the tail instead of the horns.

Aboott tried to stop Rudd/Gillard/Rudd from wasting and overspending on taxpayers money where as Shorten is putting up all the blockers to stop the government saving money in an endeavour to balance the books.

You see the difference or don't you quite understand?

Labor was spending like drunken sailors........Pink batts.....overpriced school halls......$900 Rudd cheques to the living and the dead.....fuel watch....grocery watch...cash for junkers....illegal boat people.....etc...etc...etc...That is what Abbott tried to stop.

And may I remind you and all the other socialists on this forum how we are  now all suffering the after affects....It is like a tsunami after the Labor Earth quake......Do you get my drift?


----------



## Tisme (19 August 2016)

noco said:


> No No  No Tisme, once again you have got the bull by the tail instead of the horns.
> 
> Aboott tried to stop Rudd/Gillard/Rudd from wasting and overspending on taxpayers money where as Shorten is putting up all the blockers to stop the government saving money in an endeavour to balance the books.
> 
> ...




Yeah you are making the mistake of confusing common decency (as taught to you by your mother)  with socialism. Don't get me wrong Noco, I'm quite proud that you consider me a socialist because it means my peers think I have a wide character set, rather than the narrow minded bigot I think I am.


----------



## noco (19 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> Yeah you are making the mistake of confusing common decency (as taught to you by your mother)  with socialism. Don't get me wrong Noco, I'm quite proud that you consider me a socialist because it means my peers think I have a wide character set, rather than the narrow minded bigot I think I am.




What the hell has me and my late mother got to do with the Socialist Labor Party who are hell bent on wrecking Australia.

I think you are talking rote because you just don't have the right answers to my post.


----------



## Tisme (19 August 2016)

noco said:


> What the hell has me and my late mother got to do with the Socialist Labor Party who are hell bent on wrecking Australia.
> 
> I think you are talking rote because you just don't have the right answers to my post.




I was just reminding you that once upon a time courtesy and common decency among the civilised was generally engendered by mothers. Of course that is a generalisation and perhaps not an imperative in some backblocks and boonies.

My answers could never coalesce with many common folk, because, being a hedonistic as well as a bigot I am not driven by hate, spite, vitriol and anger.


----------



## noco (19 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I was just reminding you that once upon a time courtesy and common decency among the civilised was generally engendered by mothers. Of course that is a generalisation and perhaps not an imperative in some backblocks and boonies.
> 
> My answers could never coalesce with many common folk, because, being a hedonistic as well as a bigot I am not driven by hate, spite, vitriol and anger.




And at times you just do not make any sense.:topic


----------



## dutchie (31 August 2016)

So Sam Dastyari is getting dirty with the Chinese. 

Government backbenchers have questioned whether Labor frontbencher Sam Dastyari is “fit and proper” to remain an MP after he allowed a Chinese education company to pay a $1670 travel bill.

https://www.google.com.au/search?hl....3146.3-3j0j1j2.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.clxlfb8xoUM


----------



## drsmith (31 August 2016)

Young Samuel might have to do a ring around of charities to see if any are willing to accept. Attempt one has been a fail.


----------



## noco (31 August 2016)

dutchie said:


> So Sam Dastyari is getting dirty with the Chinese.
> 
> Government backbenchers have questioned whether Labor frontbencher Sam Dastyari is “fit and proper” to remain an MP after he allowed a Chinese education company to pay a $1670 travel bill.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/search?hl....3146.3-3j0j1j2.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.clxlfb8xoUM




If this had been a Liberal MP, the Labor Party would have been all over it.


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> , I'm quite proud that you consider me a socialist because it means my peers think I have a wide character set, rather than the narrow minded bigot I think I am.




Shame the Labor Party don't think you have a wide character set, or they would allow you to have a say in the same sex marriage debate.

Rather than the typical socialist mantra of, trust me, I know what's best for you.


----------



## Tisme (1 September 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Shame the Labor Party don't think you have a wide character set, or they would allow you to have a say in the same sex marriage debate.
> 
> Rather than the typical socialist mantra of, trust me, I know what's best for you.




I sent Billy a correspondence stating my view that the Labor Party is a traitor to its anglophile working class roots and that it's preoccupation of grubbing for votes by pandering to the fringes of society is destroying the rights of the very workers it was setup to defend.

Of course, I haven't been too pleasant to the Libs either, also far too quick to legislate away our right of misery and also it's shift from also being an anglophile, do buggerall party  to whatever the hell it is today.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 September 2016)

dutchie said:


> So Sam Dastyari is getting dirty with the Chinese.
> 
> Government backbenchers have questioned whether Labor frontbencher Sam Dastyari is “fit and proper” to remain an MP after he allowed a Chinese education company to pay a $1670 travel bill.




I  wonder if Labor would vote for a plebiscite about whether Australian politicians should accept Chinese money?


----------



## dutchie (8 September 2016)

Traitors should not be given second chances.

Dastyari is finished. Shorten should have sacked him in the first place.


----------



## Tisme (8 September 2016)

dutchie said:


> Traitors should not be given second chances.
> 
> Dastyari is finished. Shorten should have sacked him in the first place.




I think he was finished the night he appeared on QANDA and Pauline hooked into him about being a closet Muslim.


----------



## noco (22 September 2016)

Some interesting facts and figures on Labor's reign 2007/2013...Not something to be proud of I would say. 


http://keithpitt.com.au/sites/default/files/LaborMess.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2016)

noco said:


> Some interesting facts and figures on Labor's reign 2007/2013...Not something to be proud of I would say.
> 
> 
> http://keithpitt.com.au/sites/default/files/LaborMess.pdf




Are you on any other forums noco ? I just found one where there was someone called juliar ranting on about Fabians just like you.


----------



## noco (22 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you on any other forums noco ? I just found one where there was someone called juliar ranting on about Fabians just like you.




So pleased you enjoyed the ride....Thought I would remind you of the past and why we are still in deep $hit today.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2016)

With the Labor Party resource rent tax, wasn't it all about making the miners paying a tax, on a resource that will eventually be depleted?
Well what the W.A Nationals are suggesting makes sense.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...ed-why-are-rio-tinto-and-bhp-targeted/7908544

The last paragraph sums it up:

*But that is subject to change based on production volumes. The companies argue higher costs would result in less mining activity, and the amount of money raised by the tax depends entirely on how much ore is being produced*.

Well duh wasn't that what everyone was saying, pay on removal of the resource, unlike dumb Labor 'pay on what you sell it for'.

That leads to selling it offshore to a parent company, wow, who would have guessed that?

Why not charge them for what they extract, rather than for what they sell it for?

If the resource is easily extracted (which it is) why wouldn't you charge them on how much they extract?
When it is gone, do you think the mining companies will be hanging around, I think not.

The naysayers say the miners will source their ore from Brazil, so what, it is better to deplete their reserves than give away ours for nothing.IMO


----------



## Boggo (6 October 2016)

Always an interesting read, a lot changes in five years eh Juliar and So Wong 

http://www.xyz.net.au/main-reason-terrified-left/


----------



## explod (6 October 2016)

Boggo said:


> Always an interesting read, a lot changes in five years eh Juliar and So Wong
> 
> http://www.xyz.net.au/main-reason-terrified-left/




What a load of unsubstantiated imaginary ranting.


----------



## Boggo (6 October 2016)

explod said:


> What a load of unsubstantiated imaginary ranting.




Had a two second google of just one bit of the "imaginary ranting" and found this.
Don't think I need to bother searching further.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/pe...y-discrimination/story-fn5zm695-1225897531966


----------



## noco (6 October 2016)

Boggo said:


> Had a two second google of just one bit of the "imaginary ranting" and found this.
> Don't think I need to bother searching further.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/pe...y-discrimination/story-fn5zm695-1225897531966




Did she make that statement before or after her 5 years as partner of Jay Weatheral?


----------



## noco (7 October 2016)

From Anatasia Palaszczuk own mouth before the last Queensland election,

*"THERE WILL BE NO ASSET SALES UNDER A GOVERNMENT I LEAD"*

Now where have I heard that saying before?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/32816487/qld-government-plans-land-sell-off/#page1

*The Queensland Council of Unions (QCU), which repeatedly protested against the LNP's privatisation agenda, also backed the policy.

"As long as the monies from the sales goes back into infrastructure that generates jobs, the QCU is not opposed to the sale," General Secretary Ros McLennan said.
*

One can bet his boots that some of the fire sale will syphoned off to help bring down some of the Beattie/Bligh bad debt......


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2016)

noco said:


> From Anatasia Palaszczuk own mouth before the last Queensland election,
> 
> *"THERE WILL BE NO ASSET SALES UNDER A GOVERNMENT I LEAD"*
> 
> ...




I guess they are using the same weasel words Campbell Newman did, but avoiding the "sales" tag. Phrases like "privatisation of government assets" is much more palatable to the gullible.

Surprisingly the sky still hasn't fallen in after the dire predictions of the Murdoch Liberal Party since Bligh/Rudd/Gillard days. That must really grate the senses of the loyal readership and the eternal waiting to say "I told you so".


----------



## drsmith (7 October 2016)

sptrawler said:


> With the Labor Party resource rent tax, wasn't it all about making the miners paying a tax, on a resource that will eventually be depleted?
> Well what the W.A Nationals are suggesting makes sense.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...ed-why-are-rio-tinto-and-bhp-targeted/7908544
> ...



There has been 3 types of mineral resource taxes levied in recent times after taking into account Labor's brief MMRT.

First is the 25 cent/tonne rental lease for Iron Ore that Brendon Grylls wants to increase to $5 for BHP and RIO. This is a fixed price lease which by that nature is the least volatile. It's also the option that is most negative for resource development, as noted above.

Federal Labor's two profit based tax options (RSPT abandoned for the MRRT) are by that nature the most volatile, also as noted above. 

The state based mining royalties fit in the middle. Being subject to the trading price of the underlying resource, it's less volatile than company profitability. It's also less subject to corporate profit shifting than the RSPT and MRRT above.

An option here could be to increase the fixed price lease payment in exchange for a reduction in the royalty. This would reduce resource revenue volatility to the state while at the same time limiting the impact of the rental lease on future development. 

Increasing the overall state based resource rental lease/royalty take is another question that could be part of the above however that needs to be considered in the light that most of the gain is presently ultimately lost through GST redistribution (90% I think it is).

Colin Barnett is hoping for a buy out the 25 cent/tonne lease payment through agreement with the miners.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...hp-billiton-rio-tinto-mining-tax-deal/7911290

This would provide a short term boost to the budget at the expense of longer term revenue. In the context of the current GST distribution method and WA's present share, it may be the most sensible option.


----------



## drsmith (13 October 2016)

Wayne Swan is having a belated dummy spit over being outsmarted by BHP on the MRRT in 2010,



> Mr Swan also said that when the mining tax debate was dominating politics in 2010, BHP Billiton had inflated the impact of the Minerals Resource Rent Tax on its business, while it channelled its profits through foreign tax havens.




Who was it that rushed to agreement on the above prior to rushing to an election in 2010?

Labor's great negotiator IIRC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-13/bhp-billiton-slammed-for-tax-avoidance-by-wayne-swan/7928432


----------



## orr (13 October 2016)

Labor to sworn in next Federal Government now at $1.72 .... can only see those odds shortening.


----------



## noco (13 October 2016)

drsmith said:


> Wayne Swan is having a belated dummy spit over being outsmarted by BHP on the MRRT in 2010,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, Wayne Swan the world's greatest treasurer, had never looked very smart and his brain suits his looks....Did he have a degree in economics?....I don't think so...Wayne Swan had a Bachelor of arts degree.

He promised surpluses 4 years in a row and never made it once.......The money he was supposed reap from the MRT cost more than to administer than what he collected......You remember the MRT was designed to finance NDIS and Gonski.

Now he is blaming BHP for not getting what he thought he could......Not a very smart fellow at all if he did not do his homework.


----------



## noco (13 October 2016)

orr said:


> Labor to sworn in next Federal Government now at $1.72 .... can only see those odds shortening.




There is another 2.5 years to go before the next election.....I don't know how anyone can predict the outcome this early.


----------



## explod (13 October 2016)

noco said:


> There is another 2.5 years to go before the next election.....I don't know how anyone can predict the outcome this early.




The Libs were on the downhill slope leading up to the last election.  They lost a lot of seats so dont' you think that trend is not continuing and particularly with the continued ramps of 

"jobs and growth, jobs and growth" 

with no real substance of the how.


----------



## Ves (13 October 2016)

noco said:


> Did he have a degree in economics?....



Can you name the last Federal treasurer who had a degree in economics?


----------



## drsmith (13 October 2016)

noco said:


> There is another 2.5 years to go before the next election.....I don't know how anyone can predict the outcome this early.



Yes, it's a bit early to be concerning ourselves with betting odds just yet.


----------



## trainspotter (13 October 2016)

Ves said:


> Can you name the last Federal treasurer who had a degree in economics?




William McMahon was the first. Treasurer Scott Morrison has an honours degree in Applied Economic Geography.

Wayne Swan - BA (hons) - Bachelor of Arts


----------



## noco (13 October 2016)

trainspotter said:


> William McMahon was the first. Treasurer Scott Morrison has an honours degree in Applied Economic Geography.
> 
> Wayne Swan - BA (hons) - Bachelor of Arts
> 
> View attachment 68414




Although they were not treasurers, Tony Abbott was a Rhode scholar with a degree in economics......John Hewson  
was another.


----------



## Tisme (14 October 2016)

So now we are debating formal qualifications for pollies. Terrific, stack parliament with more disconnects from the constituency. 

Joe Hockey Vs Paul Keating


----------



## Ves (14 October 2016)

trainspotter said:


> William McMahon was the first. Treasurer Scott Morrison has an honours degree in Applied Economic Geography.
> 
> Wayne Swan - BA (hons) - Bachelor of Arts
> 
> View attachment 68414



The point was that historically in Australia very few Federal treasurers have actually had an economics degree.

And yep,  some of them had Bachelor of Arts degrees. Certainly not limited to the bloke you mentioned.

There's an obvious reason why they don't need to have economics degrees too.


----------



## noco (14 October 2016)

Whilst Richo has been highly critical of Mike Baird's back flip on grey hound racing, I cannot believe he (Richo), the past Labor numbers man, has been  scathing with his attack on Bill Shorten and Jay Weatherill in regards to there policy of renewable energy.  

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s/news-story/c12f322fd15a5d4ea6e0e7376402209d

*I believe in climate change but I am not an extremist. I love the idea that sun, wind and water can keep the lights, the stove, the fridge and the airconditioner going. The problem is how long it will take to improve the technologies for clean energy sources to power our country. Labor needs to consider its position on this issue, and in particular Bill Shorten, Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews and South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill need to watch videos of Baird over and over again. They need to back down on their renewable energy targets. It has nothing to do with electoral popularity. This is all about energy security. The prolonged statewide blackout across South Australia was the perfect reason to change tack. Closing coal-powered electricity plants that are reliable is dangerous when the energy to replace their output simply can’t hack it.

Weatherill has been a very, very successful political leader. He has won elections he was not supposed to win. He has defied the odds and consequently he became very popular. The halo is slipping now and threatens to disappear entirely. Watching him pretend that the closure of a coal-fired plant and too much reliance on wind farms were not among the causes of the blackout was as embarrassing as it was excruciating. When the lights go out, minds are concentrated on finding a reason.

The message here for Weatherill is that the mob, as they always do, have worked him out. When the wind disappears, the wind farms don’t work. When the wind blows too hard, the wind farms don’t work.

Given his history I am hopeful the Premier will redeem himself and make his energy targets realistic. His task will be made more difficult because of the role of federal Labor frontbencher Mark Butler, who continues to stick to Labor’s 50 per cent renewable energy target, which he seems to want in place within the week.

The farce of this policy has become obvious to all. The government has done little to expose the extraordinary hole in this stupid Labor policy. Labor has no plan on how this target would be reached. Australia must keep some of its reliance on coal until the renewable energy technologies are proven.

Again, this is not about electoral success. Yes, Labor may lose some votes to the Greens if it makes the necessary changes, but the great bulk of the electorate will respond positively. In Victoria, Andrews may well be going down this doomed path as well. Nobody can talk with certainty about our energy future.

Sadly, Labor is playing games with people’s lives. It is no good playing roulette and hoping your number comes up. The poor and pensioners particularly require certainty about lights and heat. Labor owes it to its base to modify its stance.

A complete backdown a la Baird is not necessary. An acknowledgment of a harsh reality is always superior to a Don Quixote notion of the impossible dream. The real test is whether you have the courage to take on a difficult task. Bill, it’s over to you.*


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2016)

Labor's been at it again with fake Medicare cards, this time with the Canberra election.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...of-act-election-campaign-20161013-gs1n2x.html


----------



## Tisme (16 October 2016)

A bit of history



> PAUL KEATING'S SPEECH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME AUSTRALIA GRADUATION CEREMONY PERTH - TUESDAY, 8 MARCH 1994
> "For me, being with you this evening is also a pleasure, because I missed my own graduation ceremony. Not that I didn't have a classical education but it was in the Australian Labor Party. Apart from a few degrees in economics, it afforded me a PhD in ‘Varieties of Human Behaviour’. In fact, of all the Prime Ministers since the 1940s, with the exception of John McEwen, who was in the job for just a few days, I am the only one not to have had a university
> education. My academic education ended at the age of seventeen. I am quite sure that the great majority of people from my background in those years would not have expected to set foot in a university in their lifetimes. It was beyond reach - or at least seemed to be. It is true that with application and intelligence the sons and daughters of working people can get there. But not many of them. The majority simply couldn't afford it. And there were not many universities. However, the physical limits were not the only impediment, nor perhaps the most important one. There was a psychological obstacle. A university education was beyond the reach of our social expectations. It required young people to think beyond their circumstances, beyond the patterns of life in their families and communities. It meant very often leaving those families and communities. It required a leap of the imagination which most of us could not make. Most did not expect to go to university or even finish secondary school indeed, just a decade ago only three in ten Australians were finishing secondary school. That is in 1984.”


----------



## Tisme (16 October 2016)

More history and the calibre of the great Liberal Party of Australia and the ALP back then.

We can only hope there is a Keating coming through the ranks of either party. Someone who isn't paralysed by risk aversion and hurt feelings, but gets things done by either leading or dragging the country forward in real things that matter.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...e-was-lit-a-long-time-ago-20121005-274o5.html




> But it was a memorable moment in modern Australian politics when a Liberal backbencher implied that Paul Keating had fathered an illegitimate child.
> 
> "Kristine had a little girl called Paul," Tuckey called out, as Paul Kelly recorded in The End of Certainty. It was part of "an aggressive parliamentary strategy [John] Howard had approved", wrote Kelly. While Kristine was real, the illegitimate child was not.
> 
> ...


----------



## orr (16 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> More history and the calibre of the great Liberal Party of Australia and the ALP back then.
> 
> We can only hope there is a Keating coming through
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...e-was-lit-a-long-time-ago-20121005-274o5.html




God we can only hope so......

on Tuckey... never a truer word spoken...sort of thing though  that WA is capable of throwing up on occasion. _'Watchunder_'


----------



## SirRumpole (16 October 2016)

> More history and the calibre of the great Liberal Party of Australia and the ALP back then.
> 
> We can only hope there is a Keating coming through




Keating needed a charismatic figure like Hawke to get him into a position from where he could launch his putsch for the leadership. People may not have voted for Keating cold because of his lack of qualifications. I suspect that if there is a Keating out there he will be biding his time waiting for someone else to lead Labor to victory.

 He will then build up his importance, his factional following and his public persona after which he will seize on any weakness in the leader and make his move. Machiaevellian certainly, but the mark of genius if it comes off.


----------



## noco (17 October 2016)

The Green/Labor coalition are at their snide tactics again with Mediscare in the Canberra elections this time.

AFP are investigating......Labor says, yes were naughty boys, we apologise and assure you it won't happen again.

It is the case with Labor......What ever it takes to win....Fair or foul.

What utter BS.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...e/news-story/5f2feecc1b3870d2a93cb2c869d2a509


*Labor faces another police *inquiry into its “privatising Medicare” campaign claims as federal officials refer a new *aspect of the affair to the authorities out of concern about a breach of the laws that protect the government health agency.

Federal police are being asked to investigate the methods used by Labor and the unions to persuade voters that Medicare was being sold-off by the *Coalition, testing the boundaries of political *campaigning.

The chief counsel at the *Department of Human Services decided to refer the new concern to the AFP last week after Labor repeated its federal tactics during the ACT election campaign, heightening alarm within the bureaucracy.

Malcolm Turnbull has accused Labor of lying to voters by sending out text messages that purported to be from Medicare but actually were political messages telling people the Prime Minister planned to privatise the agency.

Bill Shorten has ridiculed the attacks and sought to turn the government’s sensitivities to his advantage, last week challenging the Prime Minister to answer a question “without another *tantrum about a text message”.

While the AFP halted an investigation into whether the text message breached electoral law, the new complaint is based on protection of the Medicare brand and logo in the Human Services (Medicare) Act. The Australian has seen advice from the Department of Human Services setting out the intention to refer the matter to the AFP to consider whether the “privatising Medicare” was an offence under section 41C of the act.

The advice was prepared after the Australian Government Solicitor proved Labor’s weakness on the law last week, when the ACT branch of the party was caught sending out fake cards with the Medicare logo and suggesting the Liberals would privatise the territory health system.

ACT party secretary Matthew Byrne apologised minutes after getting a letter from the Government Solicitor. “I can confirm that ACT Labor has ceased distributing this material and we undertake not to further distribute any material that features the Medicare logo,’’ Mr Byrne said.

Human Services Minister Alan Tudge seized on the statement to demand a similar apology from Mr Shorten. “If the head of the ACT Labor Party can determine that what they did was wrong and apologise for their actions, how long will it take the Leader of the *Opposition to apologise for what he did during the federal campaign?” he told parliament on Thursday.

A key issue in dispute is a fake Medicare card sent out during the federal campaign, authorised by ACTU secretary Dave Oliver.

The Medicare Act makes it an offence to use the agency’s name or logo in any way without government authority.*


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

noco said:


> The Green/Labor coalition are at their snide tactics again with Mediscare in the Canberra elections this time.
> 
> AFP are investigating......Labor says, yes were naughty boys, we apologise and assure you it won't happen again.
> 
> ...




More public expenditure by the LNP to sling mud at its political peers that will invariably fail and make the public even more cynical about the altruistic  motives. What a nonsense using tarnished branding of a monopoly, unless it is being valued for sale.

I'm always heartened when the originators of these actions end up at the hands of vengeance served cold later in their lives.


----------



## noco (17 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> More public expenditure by the LNP to sling mud at its political peers that will invariably fail and make the public even more cynical about the altruistic  motives. What a nonsense using tarnished branding of a monopoly, unless it is being valued for sale.
> 
> I'm always heartened when the originators of these actions end up at the hands of vengeance served cold later in their lives.




Are you actually saying you condone the Green/Labor coalition's tactics with their lies?


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

noco said:


> Are you actually saying you condone the Green/Labor coalition's tactics with their lies?




I'm saying the LNP started acting like petulant children during the Howard period when the Nationals started welding on their juvenile sense of payback onto mean spirited people like Reith, Abbott and Costello. 

Parliament has been a basket case ever since ~2000 with an intransigent new breed of politician who uses public monies to find no guilt.

Given that our own PM set the bar when it comes to truth and lies (Greche) I doubt anyone in parliament tells tactical lies.


----------



## noco (17 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'm saying the LNP started acting like petulant children during the Howard period when the Nationals started welding on their juvenile sense of payback onto mean spirited people like Reith, Abbott and Costello.
> 
> Parliament has been a basket case ever since ~2000 with an intransigent new breed of politician who uses public monies to find no guilt.
> 
> Given that our own PM set the bar when it comes to truth and lies (Greche) I doubt anyone in parliament tells tactical lies.




You have not answered my question and that is I repeat, "Do you condone the Green/Labor coalition regarding the MEDISCARE  stunt both Federally and the recent Canberra elections?"

A simple answer....YES or NO.....As per usual, you beat around the bush with your monotonous rhetoric.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2016)

noco said:


> You have not answered my question and that is I repeat, "Do you condone the Green/Labor coalition regarding the MEDISCARE  stunt both Federally and the recent Canberra elections?"
> 
> A simple answer....YES or NO.....As per usual, you beat around the bush with your monotonous rhetoric.




The fact is noco , that Menzies and Bjelke Petersen stayed in power for decades with the "Reds under the Beds" scare campaigns, so if you can't take it back, don't dish it out.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

noco said:


> You have not answered my question and that is I repeat, "Do you condone the Green/Labor coalition regarding the MEDISCARE  stunt both Federally and the recent Canberra elections?"
> 
> A simple answer....YES or NO.....As per usual, you beat around the bush with your monotonous rhetoric.




I think they were telling the truth and the LNP went into denial mode once outed.




> The Australian Federal Police have dropped their investigation into text messages purportedly sent by Medicare to voters on election day warning of a risk to the system if the Turnbull Government was re-elected.
> 
> The text messages were sent on July 2, and appeared to be targeted at certain electorates around the country.
> 
> ...




MOre taxpayer monies spent by LNP on cynical witch hunts


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact is noco , that Menzies and Bjelke Petersen stayed in power for decades with the "Reds under the Beds" scare campaigns, so if you can't take it back, don't dish it out.




Joh paid the price at the hands of his own LNP political tribe. It took ALP premier Beatty to give him post praise for the various good things he did.

Of course "Joh for PM" put the bipartisan scares up Canberra.


----------



## noco (17 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact is noco , that Menzies and Bjelke Petersen stayed in power for decades with the "Reds under the Beds" scare campaigns, so if you can't take it back, don't dish it out.




And how right they were for now they ( the Reds under the bed) are out in the open under the banner of the Green/Labor coalition...Caldwell and Evatt were both confessed communists.

Very evident on the Chris Kenny show and his segment on the ABC tonight  and how left (socialist) they are....The ABC is loaded with socialists left  Green and Labor journalists.


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

The Labor Party appear to be split down the middle on reform of their ideology relating to socialism.

Bill Shorten wants to ditch it but he has a lot of opposition......he is stuck to the militant unions with super glue and there is no way they will divert from Socialism (Communism).........Happy days ahead for the Socialist left Labor Party....Socialism is just a soft word for Communism....Central control is the only way of life they know.

How can they hope to govern the country when they cannot govern themselves.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/3d77916fce9bd332151c3597fb7e23f0


*Nothing could be more important for a political party than defining what it stands for. For the Labor Party, formed in 1891, this is especially so. Now, for the first time in more than 30 years, the party has embarked on a quest to modernise its central mission statement: the socialist objective.

Labor’s national executive committee has established an eight-person committee to begin a formal review of the party’s quixotic socialist objective and its broader philosophical principles. Reviewing the party’s ancient creed may seem like unnecessary navel-gazing, but this task is long overdue.

It is absurd that Labor still formally commits itself to a discredited ideology: “the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields”. Some introspection to modernise the party’s animating purpose in politics is evidently needed.

But this debate soon will engulf Labor, from the leadership to the membership, and its outcome is far from certain. While Labor’s *national conference last year resolved to review the socialist objective “with a view to replacing the existing language”, this will be fiercely resisted by some in the party.

Bill Shorten told this column a few years ago that Labor should dump its socialist objective and draft a new statement that better reflected the party’s modern goals and objectives. He described the socialist objective as being “as useful as a 100-year-old street directory”. But the Opposition Leader refused to make it a priority.

“I don’t believe in state ownership of the means of production or the means of the distribution of production, or indeed deciding the outcome of the distribution of the means of production,” Shorten said. “So I’m not a classical socialist.” In his own typically tortured way, Shorten identified the ridiculous wording of Labor’s century-old socialist credo. But his deputy, Tanya Plibersek, supports maintaining the socialist objective. “I like it,” she told this column last year. Treasury spokesman Chris Bowen supports rewriting the objective. So does environment spokesman Tony Burke and climate change spokesman Mark Butler. But Kim Carr, another frontbencher, will fight to keep the socialist objective. Carr is one of Shorten’s key factional backers.

The upshot is that Labor’s frontbench is split on the future of the socialist objective. Most of the Right faction will support a rewrite of the party’s philosophy. But the Left faction is likely to resist it. Several Left MPs such as Stephen Jones, Doug Cameron and Jenny McAllister, a former national president, support democratic socialism remaining as Labor’s lodestar.*

Read more if it will let you.


----------



## Tisme (18 October 2016)

> The Liberal Party was deliberately established by Menzies in such a way that the parliamentary party
> would determine policy. The party organisation could determine the “platform” but the parliamentary party
> determined “policy”.




http://samuelgriffith.org.au/docs/vol18/v18chap12.pdf


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> http://samuelgriffith.org.au/docs/vol18/v18chap12.pdf




This thread is about the "USELESS LABOR PARTY"......

:topic


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> This thread is about the "USELESS LABOR PARTY"......
> 
> :topic




The title of this thread is designed for "flaming", ie to provoke other members who may not support the opinion that the Labor party is "useless". 

This thread should be closed and discussion of the Labor party transferred to a thread with a more appropriate name that is not solely for criticism of a particular Party.


----------



## drsmith (18 October 2016)

*Re: Useful Labor Party*

There you go Rumpy.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

*Re: Useful Labor Party*



drsmith said:


> There you go Rumpy.




Thanks Doc.


----------



## explod (18 October 2016)

*Re: Useful Labor Party*



SirRumpole said:


> Thanks Doc.




Spot on. 

And I don't even like the Labor Party


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

*Re: Useful Labor Party*



drsmith said:


> There you go Rumpy.




Yeah, as useful as t*ts on a bull.


----------



## Tisme (18 October 2016)

noco said:


> This thread is about the "USELESS LABOR PARTY"......
> 
> :topic




And your point is?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> And your point is?




Less.


----------



## Tisme (18 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Less.




 Thought so.

The heading is either bad case of tautology or an oxymoron depending on which side of the fence reads it.


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> And your point is?




My point is what has the Liberal Party got to do with the "USELESS LABOR PARTY"?

There is an appropriate thread under the Liberal banner.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2016)

noco said:


> My point is what has the Liberal Party got to do with the "USELESS LABOR PARTY"?
> 
> There is an appropriate thread under the Liberal banner.




I'm still not following your logic?


----------



## noco (19 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'm still not following your logic?




I am sorry to say it but if you can't work that out then you must lacking something.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2016)

Surely a the party that is "Useless Labor" would be Labor's antithesis = Liberal Party?


----------



## orr (2 November 2016)

orr said:


> Labor to sworn in next Federal Government now at $1.72 .... can only see those odds shortening.




And over two and a half years to the next election I hear some say... well maybe, but it doesn't have that feel to me.

It's been 3 whole weeks and the odds have Shortened to $1.60...( god bless the Christian conservative fundamentalists with their neo-con ideological blinkers channelling Hansons _intellectually inspired_ <4%)

It would surprise me that if this spiralling debacle that currently 'holds the numbers' of this so called government continues for much longer, that there will not be a _run on canned food_.....


----------



## MrBurns (2 November 2016)

If they replace Shorten they'll win.


----------



## noco (2 November 2016)

MrBurns said:


> If they replace Shorten they'll win.




Who with Mr.Burns?......Tanya or Albo?...They are all as bad as each other.

The CFMEU are hell bent on dictating the terms to the Labor Party no matter who is in charge.

Gawd help the country if that ever happens.


----------



## MrBurns (2 November 2016)

noco said:


> Who with Mr.Burns?......Tanya or Albo?...They are all as bad as each other.
> 
> The CFMEU are hell bent on dictating the terms to the Labor Party no matter who is in charge.
> 
> Gawd help the country if that ever happens.




Ive no idea who they should replace him with  but he's a classless act and shouldn't be too hard to improve on. They will stuff us up if they do get in but Turnbull isn't impressing anyone at present.


----------



## noco (12 November 2016)

The useless Queensland state Labor Government are to blame for the increased crime rate by youths in Townsville.

These youths mostly ASTI , are running riot in Townsville, they get caught, are given a slap on the wrists and are back on the streets breaking and  entering and car theft....One Wednesday we had 17 break and enters and 8 cars stolen.

One young lady last Wednesday evening stopped at a red light, was pulled from the car left injured on the side of the road while this young jerk stole her car and wrecked it a few minutes later...Fortunately he was caught.....

The problem is the youth detention centers are full and the state government has no money to build more facilities....So these little ba$tards get off Scot free. 

Perhaps Four Corners might do some accurate reporting for the reasons behind the increased crime in Townsille or will they?

I have my old hunting knife under my pillow and 3 feet of 3x2 beside the bed and I won't hesitate to use it.....If I am convicted of murder at my age it will be OK because I will get better treatment in prison than I will in an aged care home.
:jump:

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...m/news-story/b2e46b9bfaab23ca422553b68bcbefcc

You can bet you boots Four Corners will refrain from reporting the crime wave in Townsville because it will be a blur on this useless state government.....Don't forget Four Corners are a left wing arm of the biased socialist ABC.


----------



## noco (13 November 2016)

One youth detention center officer is now blind in one eye due to the actions of one of these rogues.

What were they rioting for and where has it got them?

The 3 ring leaders were flown to Brisbane last night and will be segregated from each other.

We have a full Labor Party council and Mayor......We have three useless state LABOR members who are like "SEE NO EVIL...SPEAK NO EVIL ....AND HEAR NO EVIL."

We have a useless Labor Federal MP who won her seat by default and is now under investigation by the AFP for shonky ballots on Palm Island.

And they all sit on there hands and do nothing.......If it had been an all Liberal city, the socialist and bias ABC would have been all over it......The ABC has been very silent.

I have to keep reminding my wife to lock her car doors when traveling on our local roads in fear of a car jacking if she stops at a red light......

I have had to install costly CCTV to protect my home.

FFS, can somebody get this useless state Labor government off their backsides and do something about this crime wave in our city.   

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...m/news-story/b2e46b9bfaab23ca422553b68bcbefcc


----------



## noco (17 November 2016)

Labor seem to be odds with itself over the Trump victory........It left their foreign policy in disarray with Wong saying one thing and Marles and other Labor MPs saying something else.

Shorten say Trump is mad...What next Bill?

I believe the Trump factor will have a major affect on the socialist left both here and in the USA.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...t/news-story/edd6411732f96aac83c99b4709ac4f2d


*Labor's foreign affairs spokesman, Penny Wong, in a fit of madness tried to woo the mad Left by suggesting Labor would join an Asian coalition to oppose a Trump-led United States. 

Now Labor is scrabbling to undo the damage caused by her pathetic student-grade stunt:*

*And here one readers comment *

Aaron 
30 minutes ago





*Hear me now. 




The western  world is going through a period of change. I will call it the "Western Spring" and it will be an uprising in the leading capitalist democracies that will permanently finish off the socialist/communist culture that has wiggled its way back in to undermine the great success that is Western Civilisation, and the freedom that Capitalism has given it. It is a regressive, fearful culture that hinders free thinking and ideas and discussion. This is a great time for freedom. Say what you want, watch what you want, read what you want etc... Trump has emboldened the spirit of freedom that lives in many western leaders now and in the future. Its happening now, and its happening in every corner of the globe and frankly its about bloody time.*


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2016)

Labor hasn't got a clue, what to say, as this article shows.

http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/11-million-workers-want-more-hours-20161117-gsrogb.html

A great extract from the article follows:

_Unemployment and underemployment are particularly acute problems in parts of the country reliant on tradition blue collar manufacturing jobs. In parts of Victoria's Latrobe Valley, which is bracing for the looming closure of the Hazelwood Power Station, unemployment is already as high as 19.5 per cent.

The figures follows a warning from federal Opposition Leader Bill Shorten last weekend that "some of the seeds of the disquiet" that helped deliver Donald Trump his shock victory in the United States are growing in Australia, with falling living standards, rising inequality and deteriorating job security._

Labor were going to shut it down years ago.

They weren't worried about it then, why would the reporter think Shorten gives a rats now.


----------



## Tisme (17 November 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Labor hasn't got a clue, what to say, as this article shows.
> 
> 
> Labor were going to shut it down years ago.
> ...




I don't profess to know the answer to this, but are you talking Federal Labor in all three statements or mix 'n matching state and fed? I say this because discerning voters tend to vote differently for their representatives at the two different levels.

Of course we as voters empower govts at the polls to stuff up the things we didn't want interfered with.


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> I don't profess to know the answer to this, but are you talking Federal Labor in all three statements or mix 'n matching state and fed? I say this because discerning voters tend to vote differently for their representatives at the two different levels.
> 
> Of course we as voters empower govts at the polls to stuff up the things we didn't want interfered with.




I was just alluding to the fact the report was suggesting Silly Billy, was concerned about the loss off blue collar job security in the latrobe Valley, with the impending closure of Hazelewood.

You may be aware of some other issue, which we normal people, aren't aware of.


----------



## noco (21 November 2016)

GETUP, the socialist arm and mouth piece of the Labor Party, have accepted $300,000 in foreign donations after criticizing others.

Let us not forget, Bill Shorten is a foundation member and a past board member of GETUP.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...s/news-story/7ed866e94866d6e68fd013729bd25b45


*Activist group GetUp! has *accepted more than $300,000 in foreign donations over the past two years while campaigning for a ban on foreign donations to Australian political parties. 


Good on Liberal MP Ben Morton for confronting GetUp with the evidence - not just of the foreign funding but it's political bias:


Mr Morton accused GetUp! of being “a front” for the Greens and the ALP, displaying a photograph of GetUp! board member Phil Ireland partying with Labor members on election night.

Mr Oosting acknowledged the Left-leaning nature of many of the organisation’s board members, but said “they are going to have their own political views”. Asked to identify a single GetUp! board member aligned with the Liberal or National parties, he could not.*


----------



## noco (28 November 2016)

What a hypocrite is Bill Shorten is after allowing so many Chinese in on 457 visas when Aussies could have done the same jobs......Was it cheap labour for Clive Palmer...How much did Palmer donate to the Labor Party in return.

There was also one union who brought in 41 foreign workers on 457 visas......What happened to Aussie jobs first?

Do you mean to tell me  that union could not find Aussies workers to do those jobs?


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e/news-story/be04f282ec317d0bd5d9ba86843b5fc2

*Do you want lies with that? Visa embarrassment for Bill Shorten


THE former Labor government approved more than 800 visas for Chinese workers to fly into Australia and work at a mine linked to magnate Clive Palmer. 

The Daily Telegraph can reveal more than 850 Chinese nationals were given the green light to work at the Sino Iron Project on 457 visas between 2008 and 2013.

At its peak there were 374 people on 457 visas working on the mine with 372 of them Chinese.

MCC Mining (WA) Pty Ltd, a subsidiary of China Metallurgical Group Corporation, was contracted by CITIC Pacific to undertake the procurement for the site.

The mine was originally owned by Mr Palmer before Citic paid $415 million to mine on the site.




Australian Minister for Immigration and Border Protection Peter Dutton, pictured today at Question Time, where he accused Bill Shorten of hypocrisy over 457s. Picture: AAP Image/Lukas Coch
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten was employment minister during a portion of the period when the 457 visas were approved.

The Telegraph learned of the information after revealing today that the previous Labor government had given McDonald’s 285 foreign workers a visa, Hungry Jack’s 74 and KFC 88.

The 457 visa is designed for businesses to hire skilled foreign workers when there are no suitable Australians available to hire.





Opposition Leader Bill Shorten today introduced a Bill to tighten up restrictions. Picture: AAP



Former Federal MP Cluve Palmer originally owned the mine but sold to a Chinese group.
The embarrassing revelations came as Mr Shorten today introduced a Private Members Bill to parliament to tighten up 457 restrictions.

He insisted Labor had moved to do so at the end of their previous term.

“I’m proud that as Minister for Workplace Relations, we toughened up Australia’s 457 visa laws so employers were required to look locally first,’’ he said.

“Right now, over 700,000 of our fellow Australians cannot find a job — not even one hour of paid work each week.”

Immigration Minister Peter Dutton today accused Mr Shorten of hypocrisy in Question Time.

“This is a Leader of the Opposition who says one thing outside of this chamber and a very different thing inside of this chamber,’’ he said.

“The idea of the 457 program is that if the company or the employer can’t find an Australian worker, they can advertise for an overseas worker.

“When he was the employment minister, a minister in the Gillard and Rudd Governments, he did the complete opposite.

“It doesn’t matter whether it is the special deal for McDonald’s, importing foreign workers and preferring them over Australian workers, it doesn’t matter what example you need to look at. This Leader of the Opposition can’t lie straight in bed.”*


----------



## noco (28 November 2016)

The Labor state government in Queensland has increased the PS by 10,000 in the past year at a time when we are in debt to the tune of $80 billion...That is $80 billion left during the  the Beattie/ Bligh term and during the mining boom in comparison to the $22 billion left to the Labor Party by John Howard during the mining boom.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s/news-story/53b0a56c5550b28a5e67ccb79dedf5ab


*ALMOST 10,000 full-time, part-time and casual positions in the public service were created by the Palaszczuk Government last financial year.

The latest Public Service Commission quarterly workforce report has revealed massive hiring sprees in health and education drove the increase in the state’s bureaucracy.

The total public service headcount has now hit 252,870, well beyond the 243,250 inherited by the Newman government in 2012 before it sacked 14,000 staff.

Despite the Government promising to concentrate on restoring services, the proportion of staff deemed “frontline and frontline support” as opposed to corporate employees has remained static.

The report shows 8783.77 full-time-equivalent positions were created in 2015-16, meaning the public service grew at over three times the rate of Queensland’s population.

Total positions were also 4100 more than budgeted for in the financial year.

The taxpayer-funded positions accounted for almost 80 per cent of the jobs created in Queensland during the year, as the private-sector employment market flatlined.*


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## Tisme (28 November 2016)

noco said:


> The Labor state government in Queensland has increased the PS by 10,000 in the past year at a time when we are in debt to the tune of $80 billion...That is $80 billion left during the  the Beattie/ Bligh term and during the mining boom in comparison to the $22 billion left to the Labor Party by John Howard during the mining boom.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s/news-story/53b0a56c5550b28a5e67ccb79dedf5ab
> 
> ...




Yeah it's not good enough that they employ so many people to do tasks a robot could do .....seriously.... the PS hide behind many intractable rules that require zero subjectivity and therefore should just be an automated response....hopefully not an IBM program behind it.


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## noco (4 December 2016)

When I moved to Townsville in 1971 the Ross River dam was under construction and our population was 90,000....It was a 25 year project which would cater for the city's expansion...I am not sure which government instigated it...I think it may have been in Joh's time.

45 years later under successive state Labor Governments we now find ourselves running out of water with our dam now 14% with water being pumped 28 km over the mountains from the Hawton Channels which is feed from the Burdiken Dam at a cost to the rate payers of $27,000 per day.

There have been feasibility study after feasibility study done with all talk and no action.

The Federal Government has placed $2 billion on the table to construct a new dam at "Hell's Gates" some 110km west of Townsville which can be gravity feed and is 340m above sea level.

The useless state Labor Government has to meet the other 50% but to date nothing has been budgeted for while Townsville runs out of water.

Geez, I hope the heavens open up during the wet season here otherwise we are in deep $hit.

I guess if our dam does become full with a wet season, this useless State Labor Government will shelve the project for another 2 years when we will be in trouble again.  

We have a useless Federal Labor MP here who won her seat by default.....We have 3 state Labor MPs who are as useful as t**ts on a bull and sit on their hands and do nothing, and we have full Labor City Council with a Mayor whom I do have time for but her hands are tied behind her back.


http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...l/news-story/4556645ea5f334cdc527b2f799baa3e9
*
That dam wall
Shari Tagliabue, Townsville Bulletin
December 3, 2016 12:00am
Subscriber only

If you drink a lot of milk, would you sell your cow?

Queensland used to own its supplies of power and water, but political leaders couldn’t resist the lure of a cash injection to the balance sheet.
Was it a good idea? With critical assets SunWater and Ergon Energy sold off, we are now at the mercy of monopoly businesses for our essential assets, with no competition and little recourse for those wanting an alternative option.

Dams full in the southeast, but as we don’t have the luxury of regular rainfall, the only source of water to top up our rapidly emptying dam has to be pumped from the Burdekin at a great daily expense.

And yet, where are the solutions? It’s not like this is a sudden, unforeseen crisis, waterproofing the region has been an issue for decades. It’s been discussed for decades.
What exactly is the holdup, especially now that there is a Federal fund ready and waiting to futureproof our water supply?

Minister Assisting the Premier on North Queensland, Coralee O’Rourke, asked residents to be patient this week, saying that at the moment, ‘There’s not anything off the table, there’s a lot of different options we need to be looking at.”
Haven’t they already been looked at?

Haven’t consultants, engineers, and interested parties conducted feasibility studies and costings for a dam at Hell’s Gate and/or raising the wall of Ross Dam already, on multiple occasions?

Shouldn’t it simply be a case of, ‘This is by far the best and most cost-effective option for now and the future, let’s get started.”

Ms O’Rourke also said, ‘SunWater does have a deed of agreement that will supply water to the city,” but should we be comforted or conflicted? Does that mean they have to supply water or they expect to supply water? Could this explain the glacial pace of progress?
Ms O’Rourke also said that building a dam is not going to happen in a day, “so it’s good to know we’ve got water security solutions in place.”

UM, NO WE HAVEN’T. We’ve got an expensive short term solution that is occurring because no-one seems able to commit to the best long-term solution, despite each option having been raised, discussed, costed and consulted in the past.

There is a $2 billion water infrastructure fund ready and waiting, and according to a spokeswoman for Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce, the federal government will provide up to half the contribution for construction of water infrastructure, while the State Government has to fund at least 50 per cent. She then delivered this bombshell, ‘At this stage the Queensland Government has not budgeted anything.’

Is this the reason for the delaying tactics? There’s no money so just try to distract the masses until there might be?

Pumping water from the Burdekin Dam cost $27,000 per day. A gravity-fed dam is imperative, or would that upset our energy provider?
If you had a business in a crisis, management would move quickly to find the most effective solution. In this case, the immediate answer appears to lie with the workers, not the bosses. We’re told to conserve water, and there are inspectors monitoring for breaches, but ultimately this essential service is a political responsibility, not a residential one.
We pay for our water, it is up to the State government to ensure it is provided.

We’ve been doing our part for years now, it’s about time they started doing theirs.*


----------



## noco (4 December 2016)

If this had happened to an LNP member of Queensland state parliament, Labor and the media would have been calling for his head.

Never mind Billy the Labor Party will get you out of trouble by paying your bills. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...t/news-story/da92b10ef28151d959a2b29d82f9be9f


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## Tisme (4 December 2016)

noco said:


> When I moved to Townsville in 1971 the Ross River dam was under construction and our population was 90,000....It was a 25 year project which would cater for the city's expansion...I am not sure which government instigated it...I think it may have been in Joh's time.
> 
> 45 years later under successive state Labor Governments we now find ourselves running out of water with our dam now 14% with water being pumped 28 km over the mountains from the Hawton Channels which is feed from the Burdiken Dam at a cost to the rate payers of $27,000 per day.




I see the Labor Govt has managed a surplus and wondering what to do with it.


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## noco (4 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I see the Labor Govt has managed a surplus and wondering what to do with it.




Don't believe it Tisme....It is a fiddle with the PS super...They raided it to make their bottom line look good...Do some research and you will find out the truth.


----------



## noco (4 December 2016)

noco said:


> Don't believe it Tisme....It is a fiddle with the PS super...They raided it to make their bottom line look good...Do some research and you will find out the truth.




Against the advice of the auditor general, the Palaszczuk Labor Government raided the PS super fund to the tune of $2 billion...So now Tisme you see how Labor fiddled the books to get a surplus......Not a good practice at all....They cheated to deceive the people of Queensland just to make their bottom line look good......But that is not unusual for the Labor Party.

http://www.afr.com/news/politics/qld-government-under-pressure-over-super-raid-20160615-gpjix3


*Queensland Treasurer Curtis Pitt would not guarantee the minority Labor government would top-up superannuation funds for its public servants if the $34 billion defined benefits scheme was hit by an economic downturn or market volatility.

In a bruising day selling his second budget, Mr Pitt was embarrassed by the release of correspondence between the state actuary Wayne Cannon and Under-Treasurer Jim Murphy, which showed the state government essentially defied warnings about raiding the fund.

In fact, the cash-strapped government decided to take double the amount originally recommended by Mr Cannon.

Mr Pitt, who stumbled over budget numbers last week when talking about a new property tax, said he would take further advice before topping up the scheme if it slipped into deficit.

"At the end of the day, we have given the commitment that we would follow the actuary's advice, and that is what he has put on the table," he said on Wednesday.


"If it did fall below the line, what we would be seeing is a case of getting further advice, updated advice, from the actuary and taking his advice at that time."

Mr Pitt, who has been under fire from some of his senior ministerial colleagues in the past year for his performance, insisted the state government was being conservative by only taking $4 billion from the fund.

But in his original advice to the Palaszczuk government in March this year, Mr Cannon said a repatriation of $2 billion was the "appropriate" amount to take out of the $10 billion surplus in the scheme for the state's public servants.

But Treasury wrote back asking Mr Cannon to apply different fiscal principles and evaluate the scenarios of taking out up to $6 billion from the fund.

Mr Cannon said there would be a one in four chance of an accrued deficit on a funding basis if $4 billion was taken out, saying $5 billion should be the absolute maximum taken out.

This is in stark contrast to Mr Pitt's comments on Tuesday where he said the actuary recommended taking $5 billion out and they were being conservative only taking $4 billion out. 

The Liberal National Party, who targeted Mr Pitt in question time on Wednesday, said the Treasurer had been caught red-handed using the super funds to boost the state's bottom line.

"Labor has now been exposed for playing Russian roulette with the public service superannuation fund," Opposition treasury spokesman Scott Emerson said.

"This is the reckless act of a desperate government that could end up costing every taxpayer in Queensland."

But in a move which would buoy the Palaszczuk government, Fitch Ratings said it did not have any problems with taking surplus funds out of the defined benefits scheme because Queensland was the only state with a fully-funded scheme.

"In Fitch's opinion there is no negative impact from using the surplus in this manner. It crystalises a reduction in debt obligations and the fund will remain in a relatively healthy surplus of $6 billion," Fitch Ratings director John Birch said.

But Mr Birch said Queensland's $4.7 billion write-down in revenue over the next four years was worse than expected.

"As a result, the state's financial ratios will remain weaker relative to its 'AA' international peers," he said.

The other credit rating agencies are yet to pass judgment on Queensland's budget. Queensland was downgraded from the AAA credit rating in 2009.

The row over the super raid drowned out the Palaszczuk government's attempts to sell some of the programs in the budget, including the $100 million scheme to pay employers to take on the unemployed in regional Queensland.


Read more: http://www.afr.com/news/politics/ql...over-super-raid-20160615-gpjix3#ixzz4Rrz5QxDn 
Follow us: @FinancialReview on Twitter | financialreview on Facebook*


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## Tisme (5 December 2016)

noco said:


> Don't believe it Tisme....It is a fiddle with the PS super...They raided it to make their bottom line look good...Do some research and you will find out the truth.




I am aware they removed the surplus funds owned by the taxpayers for use on taxpayer programs, but I'm not sure spending an asset affects the profit and loss as income? Balance sheets and P&L are two different things aren't they?


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## noco (5 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I am aware they removed the surplus funds owned by the taxpayers for use on taxpayer programs, but I'm not sure spending an asset affects the profit and loss as income? Balance sheets and P&L are two different things aren't they?




If you were aware of all this why did you try to deceive the viewers on ASF into believing that Labor are good economic managers by showing a fictitious surplus? .......Labor never have been and never will be.


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## Tisme (5 December 2016)

noco said:


> If you were aware of all this why did you try to deceive the viewers on ASF into believing that Labor are good economic managers by showing a fictitious surplus? .......Labor never have been and never will be.




I'm sure ASF members are more astute than falling for people's trickery. You obviously underestimate the intelligence of members to make their own evaluations and investigations.


I merely heard on the ABC radio last Thursday that the govt had a surplus of funds. How did I know I was handing you the hot end of a firestick?


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## noco (5 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'm sure ASF members are more astute than falling for people's trickery. You obviously underestimate the intelligence of members to make their own evaluations and investigations.
> 
> 
> I merely heard on the ABC radio last Thursday that the govt had a surplus of funds. How did I know I was handing you the hot end of a firestick?




Well tisme you fell for it without checking how that useless Queensland state Labor were able to it..

Obviously they tricked you, but the average person like myself are not as naive as you are....Most of us know how the Labor Party operate by deception.


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## Tisme (5 December 2016)

noco said:


> Well tisme you fell for it without checking how that useless Queensland state Labor were able to it..
> 
> Obviously they tricked you, but the average person like myself are not as naive as you are....Most of us know how the Labor Party operate by deception.




So be it. I'm not sure where a trick applies, but if it gives you that winning feeling .........


----------



## noco (5 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> So be it. I'm not sure where a trick applies, but if it gives you that winning feeling .........




It is because you were quite willing to accept the fact that Labor came up with a "SURPLUS".....They tricked you and you fell for it hook, line and sinker......You had no idea when in fact you should have checked Labor out with their deception...I thought you were smarter than that.


----------



## noco (5 December 2016)

Very soon South Australia will become a cot case.......Power shortage.....decline in business investment......more blackouts......more job loses ....higher power prices to hit the poor old pensioners.

When will SA and Victoria come to their senses and realize  that have gone overboard with this crazy renewable energy crap?

Say what you like about Andrew Bolt, the facts he has quoted cannot be denied.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...s/news-story/1108a905b0c08213a385d76313daab1b


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## Tisme (6 December 2016)

noco said:


> It is because you were quite willing to accept the fact that Labor came up with a "SURPLUS".....They tricked you and you fell for it hook, line and sinker......You had no idea when in fact you should have checked Labor out with their deception...I thought you were smarter than that.




You are behaving like you are losing a one sided argument, but there no protagonist. It's almost like you are *troll*ing for a stoush 


I see the Labor Govt has managed a surplus and wondering what to do with it.


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## noco (6 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> You are behaving like you are losing a one sided argument, but there no protagonist. It's almost like you are *troll*ing for a stoush
> 
> 
> I see the Labor Govt has managed a surplus and wondering what to do with it.




Tisme, you cannot wriggle out of this one and you know it but won't admit it.....The state Queensland Labor Party government  have pulled the wool over your eyes....They have well and truly sucked you in with their fiddle of the books just to make them look good.

A vote catcher for the naive.


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## Ves (6 December 2016)

Is the withdrawal from the Public Service super scheme actually included in the Budget figures any way?

(I had a look at the Budget papers and couldn't figure it out)

And if it is,  and you're complaining it is, wouldn't it also make sense to back out the $2 billion infrastructure spending that it supports since they wouldn't do it without the withdrawal?

Can't have it both ways.   My view is that it doesn't really matter.  The net benefit is offset by increased spending.  So it doesn't make a net impact. _It's not like they withdrew $2 billion, didn't spend it,  and said,  look,  we have a $2 billion surplus now._

The 2016 Budget was also a surplus too.


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## trainspotter (6 December 2016)

“There are three types of lies - Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” Same can be said for budgets


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## Tisme (6 December 2016)

noco said:


> Tisme, you cannot wriggle out of this one and you know it but won't admit it.....The state Queensland Labor Party government  have pulled the wool over your eyes....They have well and truly sucked you in with their fiddle of the books just to make them look good.
> 
> A vote catcher for the naive.




sigh


----------



## noco (6 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> sigh





So what is the relevance?...The girl made a mistake and so did you.


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## Tisme (6 December 2016)

Even the LNP living bible is exhalting the Labor Party for a surplus.... something the LNP couldn't do.




> QUEENSLAND Treasurer Curtis Pitt deserves some credit for delivering the biggest Budget surplus in nearly a decade. At $970 million for the 2015-16 year it came in more than $800 million above forecasts and is a solid result given relatively average growth in Queensland’s non-export sectors.
> 
> The surplus is largely attributable to three factors: a degree of fiscal discipline that saw revenue growth of roughly $1 billion outstrip spending growth; higher dividends from GOCs; and a lift in royalty payments.




At least one state is bucking the trend 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...g/news-story/4976d112558c782cbc51f93b06db6015


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## SirRumpole (6 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Even the LNP living bible is exhalting the Labor Party for a surplus.... something the LNP couldn't do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Damn poor economic managers that Labor lot.

Disgraceful.


----------



## noco (6 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Even the LNP living bible is exhalting the Labor Party for a surplus.... something the LNP couldn't do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Unless you are being naive again, Campbell Newman went to the election seeking voters approval to sell or lease assets to pay off Labor's bad debt of $80 billion left by Beattie and Bligh...You and Rumpy have very short memories.

Labor and the unions put out a lot of propaganda during the election campaign and some stupid voters fell for it....We still have a massive debt which Palaszczuk has not reduced because she said she would not sell our assets.....She is now selling assets (unrequired land) and the debt has not been reduced. ......Th income from profit producing assets doesn't even cover the interest on the bad debt.

How much of that $4 billion from the super fund raid did they spend on infrastructure...I hope they send $2 billion up to Townsville to pay for the new dam at Hell's Gates....The water supply for Townsville which they have sadly neglected for 2 decades.


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## Tisme (7 December 2016)

When leaders led


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## noco (7 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> When leaders led
> 
> View attachment 69056




Yes and the two major leaders we currently have walk beside each other...Hand in hand to destroy our economy...Both need to go.

I, for once, now and then,  agree with you...We do not have a good leader on either sides of current politics who are prepared to  tackle the essentials.....All they want to talk about is gay marriage.....Climate Change .....Human rites......Nauru and Manus...... Freedom of speech and lots of other crap.


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## SirRumpole (7 December 2016)

noco said:


> .We do not have a good leader on either sides of current politics who are prepared to  tackle the essentials.....All they want to talk about is gay marriage.....Climate Change .....Human rites......Nauru and Manus...... Freedom of speech and lots of other crap.




Quite true, but I doubt if we agree on the type of leader that can lead us out of this mess. I'd say you want a Cold War Warrior like Bjelke Petersen, I want a pragmatist like Keating. 

I hope there is another Keating out there somewhere.


----------



## Tisme (7 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Quite true, but I doubt if we agree on the type of leader that can lead us out of this mess. I'd say you want a Cold War Warrior like Bjelke Petersen, I want a pragmatist like Keating.
> 
> I hope there is another Keating out there somewhere.




People will still go for the frontier ride, if only for change and opportunity for change. Strength of character and purpose is a great opiate for the masses:



> _*'It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonoured by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice... ye are a pack of mercenary wretches...
> 'Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse...
> 'Ye sordid prostitutes, have you not defil'd this sacred place...Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation...
> 'Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors... In the name of God, go!'
> ...


----------



## luutzu (7 December 2016)

noco said:


> Yes and the two major leaders we currently have walk beside each other...Hand in hand to destroy our economy...Both need to go.
> 
> I, for once, now and then,  agree with you...We do not have a good leader on either sides of current politics who are prepared to  tackle the essentials.....All they want to talk about is gay marriage.....Climate Change .....Human rites......Nauru and Manus...... Freedom of speech and lots of other crap.




Why would they want to talk about things like the TPP. Or what will Australia be like once the oil, gas and ore runs dry and that innovation boom hasn't gotten round to since not many stupid kids can afford a proper privatised education.

So it's football, crickets, titties and who should marry whom before the Muslims take over the world and destroy our Christian values.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope there is another Keating out there somewhere.




So do I, but it isn't Turnbull or Shorten.IMO


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## SirRumpole (8 December 2016)

sptrawler said:


> So do I, but it isn't Turnbull or Shorten.IMO




Sad but true.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> People will still go for the frontier ride, if only for change and opportunity for change. Strength of character and purpose is a great opiate for the masses:




Yep Oliver told em where to go allright.

I've always wondered how Queensland got away with abolishing the Legislative Council and why other States haven't done the same


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep Oliver told em where to go allright.
> 
> I've always wondered how Queensland got away with abolishing the Legislative Council and why other States haven't done the same




Yeah it doesn't seem to miss that appendage. Queensland was one of those places where the squattocracy and pastoralists had too much old boy influence in an already cronyistic state. The council members had jobs for life after serving a 5 year apprenticeship and they kept being bloody minded obstructionist to the Labor lower house.

The successive Labor Govts tried a few ways of getting rid of it, finally getting the Governor to add more seats to the council so they could be filled by Labor cronies, who eventually did the deed after much odd behaviours and missing in actions of the membership.


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep Oliver told em where to go allright.
> 
> I've always wondered how Queensland got away with abolishing the Legislative Council and why other States haven't done the same




It was just another sham and fiddle by a Labor Government who wanted to push their agenda without scrutiny.

Typical of how the Labor Party operate......Their history says it all.

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/d...eet_3.20_AbolitionOfTheLegislativeCouncil.pdf


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

I cannot believe the SA Labor Premier is thinking of going it alone in introducing a carbon tax and stating it would lower the price of electricity.

Jay Weatherill must surely have rocks in his head after the recent events in that state......That state is becoming a cot case.


http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...p/news-story/ba3bce2a9539632607238cdb40466800

*MALCOLM Turnbull had some harsh words for South Australia’s premier Jay Weatherill’s after he suggested the states could go it alone on a carbon scheme for the electricity sector.

SA Premier Jay Weatherill told ABC radio on Thursday he’ll be pressing for states to team up on their own scheme “in the absence of national leadership”.

Premier Weatherill will be discussing the idea with his counterparts ahead of Friday’s Council of Australian Governments meeting in Canberra.

A report by Chief Scientist Alan Finkel to be presented at the COAG meeting is expected to recommend an emissions intensity scheme.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull scoffed at Mr Weatherill’s plan, pointing to the South Australian blackout as an example of the Premier’s own track record with energy recently.

“The SA Government has delivered a double whammy of not being able to keep the lights on and having the most expensive electricity in Australia,” Mr Turnbull told 3AW radio.*


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

Annastacia Palaszxzuk is two faced when it comes to 457 visas for foreign workers...

She demands the Adami coal project only employs Australian workers and yet her state Labor Government is the highest state in Australia when engaging in 457 visas.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...a/news-story/f5362e138aac8cda441a76e399b9a375


*THE Palaszczuk Government has privately sponsored more foreign workers than any other state government, while publicly trumpeting it had secured an all-Australian workforce for the Adani project.

In a case of “do as we say and not as we do”, it can be revealed the State Government is the largest government sponsor of 457 visas in Australia — third behind two major international companies. The fourth and fifth largest sponsors are also private companies.

Tightly held data obtained by The Courier-Mail reveals Queensland Health was the largest sponsor with 999 overseas workers on 457 visas.

The news comes as the Australian Medical Association said yesterday Australia had “more than enough” *doctors to meet long-term needs, and no longer required medical 457 workers.*


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2016)

noco said:


> Annastacia Palaszxzuk is two faced when it comes to 457 visas for foreign workers...
> 
> She demands the Adami coal project only employs Australian workers and yet her state Labor Government is the highest state in Australia when engaging in 457 visas.
> 
> ...




Interesting how a blue riband Liberal Party newspaper quotes the most militant union in the country to add weight to its usual attacks on anything to do with the working classes. Isn't there more than doctors in the qld health?

I don't like the hassle of dealing with the innumerable number of Indian now running QLD health from engineering through to the carers. It became a tsunami under the LNP premier Newman as I recall.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2016)

Say what Tisyou?

Courier Mail riband liberal? 

A reed in the wind more likely.


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Interesting how a blue riband Liberal Party newspaper quotes the most militant union in the country to add weight to its usual attacks on anything to do with the working classes. Isn't there more than doctors in the qld health?
> 
> I don't like the hassle of dealing with the innumerable number of Indian now running QLD health from engineering through to the carers. It became a tsunami under the LNP premier Newman as I recall.




My oh my...How the truth hits a nerve in you lefties...You just cannot take it can you?


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2016)

noco said:


> It was just another sham and fiddle by a Labor Government who wanted to push their agenda without scrutiny.
> 
> Typical of how the Labor Party operate......Their history says it all.
> 
> https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/d...eet_3.20_AbolitionOfTheLegislativeCouncil.pdf




I didn't see Joh Bonkers Bananas or Campbell Newman trying to bring back the L.C. did you ?


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I didn't see Joh Bonkers Bananas or Campbell Newman trying to bring back the L.C. did you ?




Well Rumpy, here is your answer and I thought you would have been astute enough to have done your homework before opening your mouth but you seem to have habit of putting foot in it instead.

You see Rob Borbridge (LNP) wanted to have a referendum on it to bring back the upper house .......you know, give the people a democratic say, but do you know who squashed it all........Ah yes you guessed it right...It was your beloved Labor Party......What do you know?

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...per-house-independent-mps-20131123-2y2ni.html

*During the 1995 election campaign, Mr Borbidge pushed for a referendum on reinstalling Queensland's upper house.

“At present the Parliament is a joke. It is not working properly. The committee system is not working properly and accountability is a charade. It might not be this way if there was a House of Review,” he said at the time.

Labor MPs did not support the calls for a referendum.*


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2016)

noco said:


> Well Rumpy, here is your answer and I thought you would have been astute enough to have done your homework before opening your mouth.
> 
> You see Rob Borbridge (LNP) wanted to have a referendum on bring back the upper house .......you know give the people a democratic say, but do you know who squashed it all........Ah yes you guessed it right...It was your beloved Labor Party......What do you know?
> 
> ...




Good on Borbidge. Where is he now ?


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Good on Borbidge. Where is he now ?




To the best of my knowledge he would be enjoying his retirement....Why did you want to know?

Those bad old Labor boys...Where are they now?


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2016)

wayneL said:


> Say what Tisyou?
> 
> Courier Mail riband liberal?
> 
> A reed in the wind more likely.




You could be right, but that paper just outright s4its me.


----------



## Tisme (8 December 2016)

noco said:


> My oh my...How the truth hits a nerve in you lefties...You just cannot take it can you?





Troll! *Trolly trolly, trolly ....trrrroooolll, trolll*


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2016)

noco said:


> To the best of my knowledge he would be enjoying his retirement....Why did you want to know?
> 
> Those bad old Labor boys...Where are they now?




Funny, old Rob seems to have changed his mind...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...eed-for-queensland-senate-20131206-2ywsz.html

He put up the idea of a referendum from Opposition , but when he became Premier, well it just didn't seem to happen for some reason.


----------



## noco (8 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny, old Rob seems to have changed his mind...
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...eed-for-queensland-senate-20131206-2ywsz.html
> 
> He put up the idea of a referendum from Opposition , but when he became Premier, well it just didn't seem to happen for some reason.




And here is the reason.


*But Mr Borbidge said he now believed Queenslanders had no appetite for a Legislative Council.

“When we gave it consideration early in the term of our government, it was just clear that people would not accept the idea,” he said.

“They don't want it, they don't want more politicians, they think we have too many politicians already, so the idea of creating an upper chamber full or politicians is something that I think is anathema to the electorate.*


----------



## dutchie (9 December 2016)

Treasury:
Labor spending was a blow to economy after GFC, says report


A damning Treasury-commissioned independent review of the former Labor government’s unprecedented spending response to the global financial crisis has found it was a “misconceived” waste of money, fundamentally weakened Australia’s economy, almost destroyed parts of the manufacturing sector and *inflicted more long-term harm than good.

The review is also scathing of government failure on both sides of politics to address the budget crisis triggered by the $100 billion fiscal stimulus project, which has saddled the nation with the *fastest-growing public debt in the world. “There is no evidence fiscal stimulus benefited the economy over the medium term,” says the paper, to be released today.

It says the stimulus was “misconceived”, with an emphasis on transfer payments and “unproductive expenditure such as school halls and pink batts”.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t/news-story/cf643cb89beac83cbdec6f27338556a7


----------



## noco (9 December 2016)

dutchie said:


> Treasury:
> Labor spending was a blow to economy after GFC, says report
> 
> 
> ...




dutchie, your link is for subscribers only...Could copy and paste the link?


----------



## Tisme (9 December 2016)

dutchie said:


> Treasury:
> Labor spending was a blow to economy after GFC, says report
> 
> 
> ...





I can't find that paper on the Treasury site, but that hasn't stopped Labor getting their knickers in a twist (according to article):


http://www.theage.com.au/business/t...roductive-during-the-gfc-20161209-gt7k7g.html


----------



## Ves (9 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I can't find that paper on the Treasury site



https://cdn.tspace.gov.au/uploads/sites/99/2016/10/The-Effectiveness-of-Federal-Fiscal-Policy.pdf

Fairly sure this is it.  It's an external report.

From the first page:

"The views expressed in this paper are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Australian Treasury."

Might also be worth looking at the author's history and Treasury's previous responses to his writings.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2016)

Ves said:


> https://cdn.tspace.gov.au/uploads/sites/99/2016/10/The-Effectiveness-of-Federal-Fiscal-Policy.pdf
> 
> Fairly sure this is it.  It's an external report.
> 
> ...




The Treasury advised the stimulus measures as I recall.


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The Treasury advised the stimulus measures as I recall.



They advised stimulus, labor went above and beyond. Any fool could see it was wasted.


----------



## noco (10 December 2016)

Billy Gordon is becoming a headache for the Palaszczuk state Labor Government as Craig Thomsom was for Gillard....

She has to some how protect and hang on to Billy for her survival.

Billy had his drivers license suspended for drunk driving and for driving without a license.....He is behind in child support payments to two previous partners and is guilty of sending dick pics........What more do they need to kick him out of parliament?...If it had been an LNP MP he would have been kicked out long ago just as O'Driscoll was in Redcliffe.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...t/news-story/376c299140b53f05c4cf345393402e27


----------



## SirRumpole (10 December 2016)

noco said:


> Billy Gordon is becoming a headache for the Palaszczuk state Labor Government as Craig Thomsom was for Gillard....




And Brandis is for Turnbull.


----------



## noco (10 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And Brandis is for Turnbull.




Oh dear Rumpy, how could you possibly compare the two?

Has Brandis had his drivers license suspended for drunk driving and without a license/?

Is  Brandis behind in child support to two ex partners and their kids?

Does Brandis send dick pics to other women? 

Fair suck at the sauce bottle.


----------



## Tisme (10 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And Brandis is for Turnbull.




Brandis is in the Liberal Party, Billy Gordon is an independent. 

Do you remember Peter "Plonker" Dowling of the QLD LNP govt a few years back


----------



## SirRumpole (10 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Brandis is in the Liberal Party, Billy Gordon is an independent.
> 
> Do you remember Peter "Plonker" Dowling of the QLD LNP govt a few years back




Not really, but I just read about him.

Another Weiner I see.


----------



## noco (10 December 2016)

The Queensland state Labor and Annastasia Palaszczuk are taking full credit for getting the Adani coal mine up and running when in fact as recent as the last few months they tried to put a water  obstacle in the way.....Labor also funded the Greens in 11 court actions to try and stop the mine.

Palaszczuk should be ashamed of her self...she has cost Queensland a half a billion dollars in royalties alone apart from the jobs that could have been created. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...l/news-story/279d824cc393c3c8ab9aee10d21ea27c

*
THE two-year delay in approving the giant Adani Carmichael coal mine has already cost Queenslanders around half-a-billion dollars in lost royalties.

And guess what? You funded the outlandish greenie court actions that forced Adani to delay the project.

Blame the ALP-Green alliance. Especially blame Yvette D’Ath, who announced a $1 million handout in July 2015 for the Environmental Defenders Office, the group accused in Parliament of greenie “lawfare” against the resources sector.

“The Environmental Defenders Office offers free legal advice and acts for individuals, community groups and conservation groups seeking to protect the environment in the public interest,” D’Ath said when handing over the cash.

In the public interest? I don’t think so.

Premier promises no 457 visa jobs at Adani

The delay not only caused lost royalties but delayed thousands of jobs not only at the mine but in building the rail and port infrastructure.

So forgive me if I don’t join the merrymaking by Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk and Mines Minister Anthony Lynham who gushed while hogging the limelight when the project launched in Townsville this week.

Palaszczuk’s sincerity gap is widening. Thanks to her and Lynham and their greenie comrades, the project nearly didn’t go ahead at all.

Suffer the families in Mackay, Moranbah and Townsville who were left unemployed in the mining downturn.

Some people lost their homes while waiting for the *industry to pick up.

Thanks to the Labor Government funding the EDO challenge, Adani was in the courts for 68 months defending its approvals.

It had hoped to start digging 25 million tonnes a year by 2014, with production climbing to 60 million tonnes a year in future years.

I calculate the lost royalties at $235.5 million in the first year alone based on the spot price of thermal coal.

Environmentalists slam Adani coal mine

And it gets worse. The same taxpayer-funded EDO is also using the courts to delay New Hope’s Acland mine expansion near Oakey and the GVK Group’s Kevin’s Corner project west of Emerald.

How many more jobs will be sacrifice on Labor’s green altar?

How many millions in *royalties will be lost?

It’s high time Palaszczuk closed the legal loopholes *allowing challenges from green activists, most of whom live in Latte Land thousands of kilometres from the project.

Opposition Leader Tim Nicholls condemned the *delays.

“It has taken two years for Labor to get off their backsides and come to the party,” he said.

“In that two years, there could have been thousands of jobs created and hundreds of millions of dollars in royalties in the pipeline.

“The fact is that Queenslanders are paying the price for this asleep-at-the-wheel Labor Government after the LNP did all the hard yards.


The delay not only caused lost royalties but delayed thousands of jobs not only at the mine but in building the rail and port infrastructure. Picture: Tara Croser
“While the project languished under Anna Bligh’s Labor, the former LNP government moved quickly to approve the environmental impact statement, create the Galilee Basin Development Strategy to fast-track major resource projects and streamline rail access to the port, and propose a land-based solution for dredge material at Abbot Point.

“Just four weeks ago, it was the LNP which had to convince Labor to exempt the Adani project from further *potential court challenges to its water licence.

“Until then, Labor was set to impose yet another layer of environmental red tape.”

LNP mines spokesman Andrew Cripps accused Palaszczuk and Lynham of hypocrisy.

“Labor’s crowing is a sham and a shame,” he said.

“The Government’s approval of the mining lease came only after 18 months of sustained LNP pressure.

“While Labor has funded 11 cases brought by Green groups against the project, the LNP has taken up the fight with five motions in the Parliament supporting either the mining *industry or the Carmichael mine specifically.

“The Premier’s grandstanding is just another kick in the guts for the more than 1500 young north Queenslanders who have lost their jobs in the past month.

“If every job at this mine does not go to a Queenslander, she has failed us all yet again.”*


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2016)

noco said:


> The Queensland state Labor and Annastasia Palaszczuk are taking full credit for getting the Adani coal mine up and running when in fact as recent as the last few months they tried to put a water  obstacle in the way.....Labor also funded the Greens in 11 court actions to try and stop the mine.
> 
> Palaszczuk should be ashamed of her self...she has cost Queensland a half a billion dollars in royalties alone apart from the jobs that could have been created.
> 
> ....




You know how you don't like the Green and the Reds (Socialists?).

You don't like their politician's bs, lies and more lies. Or you don't like the idea of their platform? Like helping the poor and provide clean air and potable water for everyone.

I read your recount of the tough times you, and I'm assuming most other Australians, were doing it really tough noco. Thanks for sharing... was replying some long **** response but then even I got tired of reading it so yea...

Point I'm trying to make is that Australia, and societies in general... are living better quality of life, having more opportunities to advance themselves etc. All the progress are really from the work of what people call tree huggers, dreamers, idiots and Socialists commies.

The people aren't better off because of some big generous capitalist/industrialists; innovation don't come from monopolists and tycoons who have corner some market and bought off enough political influence to keep it that way.

That kind of trickle down benevolence has never work, ever. It wasn't the cause of great social and economic, technological progress since you were young either; and it's not the cause of any progress in recent decades either.

Innovations came about when young people were educated, given opportunities to study and advanced themselves and society. They have never came from telling the kids to go and get a freaking job and leave innovations to the selected gentry. 

Anyway, not saying Green and Labor are all good politicians; or that Liberals are all a holes. Just we might be screwed by both.


----------



## drsmith (11 December 2016)

Labor in Victoria cancelled East-West Link at a cost of $1.1bn to ultimately propose an alternative that's twice as expensive.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...billion-dollar-melbourne-road-project/8110168

We're presently going through the same debate in Perth with regard to an extension to Roe Highway from Kwinana Freeway to Stock Road (Roe 8). Labor's alternative should they take office in March and cancel the Roe 8 construction contracts will also be far more expensive.


----------



## MrBurns (11 December 2016)

drsmith said:


> Labor in Victoria cancelled East-West Link at a cost of $1.1bn to ultimately propose an alternative that's twice as expensive.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...billion-dollar-melbourne-road-project/8110168
> 
> We're presently going through the same debate in Perth with regard to an extension to Roe Highway from Kwinana Freeway to Stock Road (Roe 8). Labor's alternative should they take office in March and cancel the Roe 8 construction contracts will also be far more expensive.




Daniel Andrews should be in prison.


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2016)

MrBurns said:


> Daniel Andrews should be in prison.




I seem to recall the LNP Govt signed a crony contract a couple of weeks before an election they were tipped lose? It was also in the courts with protesting councils?

If the Labor govt signed a deal for a lot of money in the face of the LNP promising to tear up the contract post election, would same rules apply? Of course both sides of the fence to argue the benefits of their own virtues as being justified to sign the contract.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I seem to recall the LNP Govt signed a crony contract a couple of weeks before an election they were tipped lose? It was also in the courts with protesting councils?
> 
> If the Labor govt signed a deal for a lot of money in the face of the LNP promising to tear up the contract post election, would same rules apply? Of course both sides of the fence to argue the benefits of their own virtues as being justified to sign the contract.




Andrews is taking the proposal to the next election and won't sign any contracts before that, unlike the crony contracts signed by the LNP as you pointed out.

As for being more expensive, is it the same route as the old one or does it connect more places ? Let's compare oranges with oranges.


----------



## MrBurns (11 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I seem to recall the LNP Govt signed a crony contract a couple of weeks before an election they were tipped lose? It was also in the courts with protesting councils?
> 
> If the Labor govt signed a deal for a lot of money in the face of the LNP promising to tear up the contract post election, would same rules apply? Of course both sides of the fence to argue the benefits of their own virtues as being justified to sign the contract.





That creep paid $1.1B to get out of a contract while people in this State are homeless....and to boot we needed that link and still do.


> East West Link remains a 'high priority', says infrastructure umpire
> 
> The East West Link has been singled out as a top priority by Australia's infrastructure umpire, bringing into question a decision by the Andrews government to spend hundreds of millions of dollars axing the contract for the road.
> 
> A landmark report by Infrastructure Australia has warned the road link – joining the Eastern Freeway to the Tullamarine Freeway – will be needed in the near future to avoid crippling congestion.




http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/e...ys-infrastructure-umpire-20160216-gmv9h6.html


----------



## noco (11 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> You know how you don't like the Green and the Reds (Socialists?).
> 
> You don't like their politician's bs, lies and more lies. Or you don't like the idea of their platform? Like helping the poor and provide clean air and potable water for everyone.
> 
> ...




Luu, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that but in the pretext of that opinion you have overlooked some important points.

You are so wrong in accusing me of not helping the poor.....I am just as concerned about the welfare of the poor as you are but not overlooking the fact as to the reason a large percentage have found themselves in that predicament......I have witnessed so many cases of people wasting their money on booze, cigarettes and poker machines and they wonder why they find themselves in such a  situation.

I believe I have done my far share in helping the poor, the likes of which I am sure you could never match.

Yes, people are better off today than many of us were 60+ years ago but  that quality of life is diminishing  due to several factors of modern day living in the 21st century.....The cost of living is constantly on the rise but wages are not keeping up with those costs.

I fail to agree with you that progress has been attributed to tree huggers, dreamers, idiots and commies....Those people are rarely seen as progressive but rather obstructionist in the course of justice in creating new coal mines, dams and other important infrastructure which in turn create jobs, income and royalties to effect a better way of life.  

The Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition are in dream world with their outrageous renewable energy targets and you do not have to go past South  Australia and now Victoria to witness the disaster that is happening in those two states......The loss of jobs due to the closure of coal fired base load power, the increase in the price of electricity and how it is affecting the poor pensioners and working families, the black outs that occurring and the deterrent they are imposing on business with higher prices and unreliable supply......No business can tolerate that type of imposition and in the end the SA Government will lose business to other states or even go off sure...I just hate to try and predict how the shortage and unreliable power will affect the building of those submarines.

So now you degrade and ridicule the capitalist industrialists ......your preference I can see is socialism (communism for a better word) where the government your prefer would have central control of industry....Luu, it does not work and history has proven that time and time again.....So you must rethink which is the better alternative.

How can you deny the fact that technology has not come a long way over the years particularly in electronics?....The advancement in that area has been very significant.

You are so correct about politicians but we are being screwed more so from the left and even a Marxist in the UK has just recently stated the left has gone too far.


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2016)

MrBurns said:


> That creep paid $1.1B to get out of a contract while people in this State are homeless....and to boot we needed that link and still do.
> 
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/e...ys-infrastructure-umpire-20160216-gmv9h6.html




Given the way budget invariably blow out on capital works, what was final realistic cost?

We were lucky to have a Premier here two terms ago who put a lot of transport infrastructure in Brisbane. On top of that the mayor at the time committed council funds to a tunnel to compliment public floated tunnels.


----------



## drsmith (11 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Andrews is taking the proposal to the next election and won't sign any contracts before that, unlike the crony contracts signed by the LNP as you pointed out.
> 
> As for being more expensive, is it the same route as the old one or does it connect more places ? Let's compare oranges with oranges.



From what I can tell in the ABC article, it will connect the M3 to M80 for $10bn. Section one of the EW Link would have connected M3 to the Tullamarine freeway for ~$5bn. This is what Daniel Andrews cancelled after Labor took office at a cost of $1.1bn. The two options are broadly similar in that they connect the M3 to the northern suburbs freeway network.

I'm not defending the former Liberal government in signing the contracts. The business case appears questionable based on what I've seen in the public domain however, that's not something I've looked at in detail. The following however is what the Victorian acting Auditor-General had to say about the incoming Labor government cancelling the contract,



> Frost said the decision by the Andrews government to terminate the project had been made without full consideration of the merits of continuing, or by weighing those benefits against the costs of terminating the contract. He said the government had reimbursed costs claimed by the East West Consortium despite being refused access to the consortium’s financial records to verify the amount, ultimately incurring termination costs of $1.1 billion for little tangible benefit.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Link_(Melbourne)

Perhaps the contract shouldn't have been signed before the 2014 state election given the business case however, today's proposal at twice the cost from the government that cancelled the earlier contract only serves to highlight what the Victorian acting Auditor-General above had to say.

With regard to taking today's announcement to the next election, the point is moot. Projects of this scale take years to work through the planning and procurement phases. If it were to go ahead, the contract wouldn't be signed until after the next state election in any case. 



Tisme said:


> I seem to recall the LNP Govt signed a crony contract a couple of weeks before an election they were tipped lose? It was also in the courts with protesting councils?
> 
> If the Labor govt signed a deal for a lot of money in the face of the LNP promising to tear up the contract post election, would same rules apply? Of course both sides of the fence to argue the benefits of their own virtues as being justified to sign the contract.



Governments have the right to govern until the caretaker provisions apply. With regard to objectors to projects, nothing would get built if we waited for every whinger to shut up.


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2016)

drsmith said:


> Governments have the right to govern until the caretaker provisions apply. With regard objectors to projects, nothing would get built if we waited for every whinger to shut up.




Couldn't agree more. I guess Andrews exercised that right.


----------



## drsmith (11 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Couldn't agree more. I guess Andrews exercised that right.



He did and today we see more of the cost.


----------



## MrBurns (11 December 2016)

Andrews is a first class prick, he had no right to cancel the East West and if we really do need the one he's now proposing he should proceed now rather than wait another 2 years.......his incompetence beggars belief.
All he needs to do is to ask the Libs if they agree to it then just proceed, if they don't agree argue it out now.


----------



## noco (11 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Andrews is taking the proposal to the next election and won't sign any contracts before that, unlike the crony contracts signed by the LNP as you pointed out.
> 
> As for being more expensive, is it the same route as the old one or does it connect more places ? Let's compare oranges with oranges.




Or is it apples with apples?


----------



## SirRumpole (11 December 2016)

MrBurns said:


> Andrews is a first class prick, he had no right to cancel the East West




As I recall, cancelling the East West was one of his major election platforms. I think it's what you call a mandate.


----------



## MrBurns (11 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> As I recall, cancelling the East West was one of his major election platforms. I think it's what you call a mandate.




I don't imagine he was voted in on that issue.

I'm not going back over history but we needed it then and we still do that's why I say he had no right.

His lack of popularity now or a major part of it is the result .


----------



## moXJO (11 December 2016)

They got their union friendly companies on board and jacked up the price in anticipation of cost blowouts. 

Victoria is a notorious state for union rorts. Any Sydney construction  business that tried to expand into victoria in the 90s were run out of town. Fairly closed shop down there.
Andrews was there to look after mates. Typical labor style  they couldn't care less about public money.


----------



## noco (11 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> As I recall, cancelling the East West was one of his major election platforms. I think it's what you call a mandate.




Andrews also said to the voters that cancelling that contract would not cost Victoria one cent...I think the last count was well over a billion dollars.

Good thinking Mr Andrews......Typical Labor mentality.


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2016)

noco said:


> Luu, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that but in the pretext of that opinion you have overlooked some important points.
> 
> You are so wrong in accusing me of not helping the poor.....I am just as concerned about the welfare of the poor as you are but not overlooking the fact as to the reason a large percentage have found themselves in that predicament......I have witnessed so many cases of people wasting their money on booze, cigarettes and poker machines and they wonder why they find themselves in such a  situation.
> 
> ...





I never assumed you have something against the poor. I don't think you hate the poor since if you do, you'd be in politics already. 

There's always been gamblers and people who are less than responsible. But not all gamblers or drug addicts or homeless people are in such situation because of a lack of self-control or whatever the likes of clueless and useless politicians want us to believe.

First, studies have shown that "just say no" to drugs, to sex, to smoking... that does not work.

Same with gambling and depression and poverty. No one set out in life wanting to gamble all their earnings away. So why are so many doing it? 

Beside personal control... other factors includes the easy access and promotion of gambling. Since Bob bloody Carr let that free market rip on NSW pubs and RSL clubs, allowing as many pokies as they can handle. How many Australians all over the state got screwed?

When I was growing up, all the RSL clubs are shabby building with hardly a concreted carpark. Even when I was HS they were still shabby with no more than a couple tennis courts, lawn bowling and old folks in white gear. 

The past 20 years and all of them have grown like their own mini Las Vegas. They didn't become rich because people suddenly love to "punt" more. 

There are many other causes for gambling... least among them would be people's self-control. I mean, no job, low paying job and rising costs of everything; being fired and have no where to turn to for some emotional, career or financial support... Push people into that kind of situation through policies, then have readily available get-rich-quick machines... that's not a free market, that's farking with people's life and taking their money, then blame them for it. Maybe that is the free market, who knows.

---------------

Socialism is not Communism. Heck, it might not even be "Socialism".

It's just a method of social control to divide the plebs into Left and Right. We plebs just have to accept that either Left or Right, we're just fodders whose sole mission in life is to serve the idle Lords and their minions of warmongers and intellectuals.

All the human rights, the rights for workers to be paid fairly and return home safety; to not get poisoned at work; or consumer dying young from whatever that's churned out or flushed into rivers and water ways... The rights to public education, learning how to read and write; to question overpaid idiots; to have some assistant in bad times; be treated when sick etc. etc.

These are not the platform or the sole area of the Left or the Greens or the Socialists. We plebs all want that. And it was won after much struggles. It was never granted or given.

So the idea that if only the Greens or the Left leave business and gov't alone, they'll do right by all and create jobs for all. 

For one, business people never create jobs unless there's a demand for it. Those that create jobs without known demand tend to only hire themselves and their spouse - both without pay. 

Second, look at countries like China where there's no worker rights, not much safety or pollution regulation. They can hardly breathe over there; kids are sold tainted milk; and god knows what other ingredients are in their food or floating in their waterways. 

Why in the world do we want to compete or imitate that kind of free market? It would be great for corporations and capitalists if we were. Who doesn't love to just dump all their waste in whatever ways they feel like; or unload onto the market whatever standard of products they can convince people of.


----

It might sound like I am against capitalist or industrialists... Well that is true. But I'm not against responsible entrepreneur, innovators, business people, scientists or any such thing. And it has always been such small and unknown people who built the world and industrialised it. It's never the titans and head honchos.

I mean, practically every significant advances in science and technology of modern times came from the labs of gov't departments or gov't funded universities or through endless funding of private enterprise through cushy gov't contracts.

The computer, the internet, jet engines, planes, trains, automobile, canned food, energy, water and all infrastructure and its engineering.

So the gov't funded and assist in these advances... spending taxpayers money, sending taxpayers or their kids to war to secure supply lines and establish bases to make friends and win over savages... then once all such costs bear fruits, the joy of it goes to friends and neighbours. The plebs can also enjoy some of it too - for a price.

And that's how politicians screws over the public. By funding pet projects that benefit their friends and masters; by defunding efforts that would harm the same; by designing policies that, like an invisible hand, pushes and bend the people over so they'd sweat and labour and empty their pockets and life savings... then get thrown to the trash once they're no longer of use.

Not all of them are as incompetent as they appear. They "fail" the public because the public thought the gov't supposed to serve them.


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2016)

MrBurns said:


> I don't imagine he was voted in on that issue.
> 
> I'm not going back over history but we needed it then and we still do that's why I say he had no right.
> 
> His lack of popularity now or a major part of it is the result .




They are cheap votes and usually someone has to fall on their sword. He must be teflon skinned?


----------



## noco (11 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> I never assumed you have something against the poor. I don't think you hate the poor since if you do, you'd be in politics already.
> 
> There's always been gamblers and people who are less than responsible. But not all gamblers or drug addicts or homeless people are in such situation because of a lack of self-control or whatever the likes of clueless and useless politicians want us to believe.
> 
> ...




Sorry Luu, I went to sleep half through reading all that....Most of it was a quite boring and did not much sense:sleeping:


----------



## Tink (12 December 2016)

The sooner these vandals are thrown out, the better, imv.


----------



## noco (17 December 2016)

Tink said:


> The sooner these vandals are thrown out, the better, imv.





And the same thing applies to the Queensland state Labor Government under Palaszczuk.....They are traveling on a leaky wooden barge up the Brisbane River.....They must go sooner than later.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d/news-story/0480b28e216734ce4bc92a6f03a56dfe


*THERE is no polite way to say this: in less than two years, the Palaszczuk Government has shown itself to be bungling, profligate, unethical, unscrupulous, screaming, reckless, rotten, careless and dissolute. 

Historians and left-wing apologists frequently grumble that Johannes Bjelke-Petersen ran the worst government ever. I don’t buy it.

For sheer blinkered incompetence, it would be hard to top the Palaszczuk gang.

This Government is more reprehensible than any pre*sided over by the Hillbilly *Dictator.

Was Joh’s team more self-indulgent, debauched, dishonourable, wasteful, shameful and detestable? I doubt it.




Many of those who elected this Labor Government as a protest vote against Campbell Newman must be kicking themselves. Picture: Kym Smith
This Government has become unfit for its purpose. It is a relic of an obsolete and dangerous union delusion. Ministers have been sacked and others are under a cloud.

Queensland is in a bad place right now. The stench of ineptitude and union grov*elling pervades just about all they do, from cancelled trains to vital public housing projects that are mysteriously abandoned.

We still have not been told why Taskforce Maxima was gutted just as it was hitting its straps rounding up drug-pushing bikies.

By now, many of those who elected this Labor Government as a protest vote against Campbell Newman must be kicking themselves.

Palaszczuk did deals with unions and minor parties and disreputable independents after saying she would do no deals.

Water charges and power prices and rego fees have gone up, and a new property tax imposed.

Youth unemployment in some towns eclipses 30 per cent, and youth crime is out of control. Labor showed contempt for the electorate by capriciously changing the voting system with just 18 minutes’ notice to the Opposition.




Chief Justice Catherine Holmes says the Supreme Court has been overwhelmed with criminal cases and needs more resources to tackle its backlog. Picture: Claudia Baxter
It changed the entry rules to allow union thugs back on worksites. It changed the rules to allow union fat cats to hide their credit card spending from members.

In August, Parliament heard assaults had increased by 10 per cent and robberies by 8 per cent in the year.

And this week, the Supreme Court complained it did not have the resources to clear its backlog of criminal cases.

Some of this Government’s serious failures are less obvious.

Palaszczuk has no plan to spend on transport infrastructure, and the Brisbane CBD is choking.

If you don’t believe me, go to South Bank any weekday at 5pm in the electorate of Deputy Premier Jackie Trad and see how the buses stretch all the way from the cultural centre across the Victoria Bridge to North Quay. The public transport crisis is not “looming”, it is already here.

Meanwhile, sclerotic traffic flow in and out of Brisbane is now hurting the economies of the Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast and Moreton Bay.

Commuters are exasper*ated, yet bungling Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe has no plan that I can see.




Buses stretch all the way across Victoria Bridge, in a reflection of the public transport crisis.
Neither does Trad, the Planning and Infrastructure Minister.

Under Labor’s revised Southeast Queensland Regional Plan, the State Government has set Brisbane City Council a target of approving more than 223,000 new homes over 30 years just to keep up with the city’s growing population.

With no new rail or bus corridors planned, just how will these people get from A to B?

The State Government stopped building busways when Anna Bligh was premier. The State Infrastructure Plan has no busway projects listed for the next four years.

Having squandered its own resources, this pathetic State Government is now shifting costs to the Brisbane council, with ratepayers picking up the tab.*


----------



## noco (21 December 2016)

That useless Labor Party in Victoria are causing more strife than you can poke a stick at.

They are shutting down coal fired power stations and creating havoc Alcoa with unreliable power to sustain that industry.

Now the Andrews Government in pouring in $200,000,000 of tax payers money to prop them up together with $30,000,000 of Federal Government tax payers money.

Daniel Andrews must have been born with rocks in his head.



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...e/news-story/a9a4c64686f022cd524499ca9ced178f

*Alan Moran counts the cost:




Electricity from renewable *energy costs three times as much to produce as electricity from coal and gas. For this year, the AEMC estimates the cost of existing federal and state renewable energy programs for the average household’s electricity bills at $191 in Queensland (7 per cent of the bill), $109 in NSW, $91 in Victoria and $155 in South Australia.

But these are only the direct costs. The indirect costs, in *addition to renewable energy’s *innate unreliability, are greater.

In the first place, this is because electricity market rules mean wind and solar will always run when they are able to do so. This forces other suppliers into stop-start operations, which coal and gas baseload power stations cannot easily accommodate. Those stations are being forced to close and each such closure ramps up the wholesale electricity price.

The AEMC estimates that next year the closure of Hazelwood in Victoria will cause a cost increase of $200 for each household in the state, with lesser cost increases in other jurisdictions.

Second, wind generators *require increased network spending. The electricity market operator has put a $2.2bn cost on new transmission lines to link *


----------



## Tisme (21 December 2016)

noco said:


> That useless Labor Party in Victoria are causing more strife than you can poke a stick at.
> 
> They are shutting down coal fired power stations and creating havoc Alcoa with unreliable power to sustain that industry.
> 
> ...




You don't want him to bail out Alcoa? 

We all knew the days would come when privatization of our essential services would come to bite us on the bum. It didn't stop *Liberal Premier* Jeff Kennett carving it up into 5 retail companies.

Jeff also made sure Alcoa rec'd generous stipends which were up for renegotiation a few months back.

I guess my question is how inheriting a poisoned chalice of the *Liberal Party's* making  in 1994 equates to the successor govts' fault?


----------



## noco (21 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> You don't want him to bail out Alcoa?
> 
> We all knew the days would come when privatization of our essential services would come to bite us on the bum. It didn't stop *Liberal Premier* Jeff Kennett carving it up into 5 retail companies.
> 
> ...




The problem does not belong to the Liberal Party it is the stupid policy of the SA and Victorian Governments having gone over board with renewable energy of wind and solar......When the Sun don't shine and the wind doesn't blow there is no base load coal fired power stations to back up the system.....The renewable energy  has put the coal fired power stations out of business and the sooner Labor wakes up to the problem they have created the better....There will be more black outs and power price increases due to Labor's mentality.


----------



## dutchie (23 December 2016)

Daniel Andrews is a useless Labor idiot.


----------



## sptrawler (4 January 2017)

I see the idiocracy by the Victorian Labor Party, is about to be replicated by the Western Australian idiots.lol

It really does highlight, that State Governments need to be finished, it is just stupid politics that cost us, the plebs our money.
What a bl**dy disgrace, more normal peoples money wasted, to facilitate a popularity fest.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/no-roe-8-if-labor-wins-election-mcgowan-pledges-ng-b88345786z


----------



## noco (8 January 2017)

What is Daniel Andrews trying to hide.....Andrews is a disgrace to Victoria.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...s/news-story/fa82af732f395330466156f66f889437

*The Herald Sun *revealed the extent of the rorts-for-votes scheme*, including that MPs in safe seats “gave up” taxpayer-funded staff to be used to campaign for Labor in marginal seats.

The allegations were made by Labor whistleblowers, who said electorate officers paid for by the parliament were actually used to campaign for the ALP.
*
MPS SAY MISUSED TAXPAYER RESOURCES HELPED LABOR WIN 2014 VICTORIAN ELECTION

LABOR MPS WORRIED WHETHER CAMPAIGN ARMY WAS ABOVE BOARD
*
Mr Pakula said the Court of Appeal’s decision to allow Ms Glass to investigate gave the Parliament too much power to require the Ombudsman probe any matter, including the actions of private companies and individuals, which would compromise her “day to day work”.

But Greens leader Greg Barber, who moved the motion in the Legislative Council asking for the Ombudsman to investigate, said it showed Labor would “do anything to avoid an investigation”.

“There are genuine questions to be answered about a possible misuse of taxpayer funds here,” Mr Barber said.

And the Greens are sinking in the boot.*


----------



## Knobby22 (8 January 2017)

noco said:


> What is Daniel Andrews trying to hide.....Andrews is a disgrace to Victoria.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...s/news-story/fa82af732f395330466156f66f889437
> 
> ...



If legal it is unethical.


----------



## drsmith (9 January 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I see the idiocracy by the Victorian Labor Party, is about to be replicated by the Western Australian idiots.lol
> 
> It really does highlight, that State Governments need to be finished, it is just stupid politics that cost us, the plebs our money.
> What a bl**dy disgrace, more normal peoples money wasted, to facilitate a popularity fest.
> ...



WA Labor announced that on the same day it became public knowledge that the Roe 8 protest group Save Beeliar Wetlands had launched a case in the Federal Court to stop work on the project.

They lost that case today.


----------



## noco (16 January 2017)

The Worlds greatest treasurer, Wayne Swan, has been appointed adviser to the United Nations on tax policy.

Let us hope he will affect the UN in the same way as he affected Australia.

I wish him luck


http://www.skynews.com.au/news/poli...1/16/ex-treasurer-wayne-swan-gets-un-gig.html

*Former treasurer Wayne Swan has been appointed to chair an eminent expert group advising the United Nations on tax policy and government spending.

Mr Swan attended the first meeting of the group, which comes under the United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Asia and the Pacific, in Bangkok in December.

The group, described as 18 'renowned experts and experienced policy makers', was set up to advise UNESCAP on ways to help UN member states implement the 2030 agenda for sustainable development.*

- See more at: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/poli...ne-swan-gets-un-gig.html#sthash.aTaj7yIh.dpuf


----------



## noco (21 January 2017)

14,000 job loses in Queensland last month under the Palaszczuk Labor Government.


http://www.skynews.com.au/news/nati...zczuk-positive-despite-unemployment-rise.html


----------



## Ves (21 January 2017)

noco said:


> 14,000 job loses in Queensland last month under the Palaszczuk Labor Government.
> 
> 
> http://www.skynews.com.au/news/nati...zczuk-positive-despite-unemployment-rise.html



Oh look unemployment has zigged and zagged again.

I know it hurts,  but it's still lower than Newman.


----------



## noco (21 January 2017)

Ves said:


> Oh look unemployment has zigged and zagged again.
> 
> I know it hurts,  but it's still lower than Newman.




Do you have some figures to back that up?

http://www.qgso.qld.gov.au/products/tables/employment-growth-unemployment-qld/index.php


----------



## Ves (21 January 2017)

noco said:


> Do you have some figures to back that up?



Uhh, it says it in the article you first linked...


----------



## noco (21 January 2017)

Ves said:


> Uhh, it says it in the article you first linked...




I did it to save you the time......It was edited after I  posted.

So what are your comments about Campbell Newman having a higher unemployment?


----------



## Ves (21 January 2017)

noco said:


> So what are your comments about Campbell Newman having a higher unemployment?



From the Sky News article *YOU* linked.



> When it was last in government the Liberal National party saw unemployment climb from 5.5 per cent to 6.6 per cent, while it has fallen to 6 per cent under Labor until now.


----------



## noco (21 January 2017)

Ves said:


> From the Sky News article *YOU* linked.




*2010–11* 1.8 2.4 5.4 5.0  LNP
*2011–12* 1.3 1.2 5.5 5.2  LNP
*2012–13* 0.1 1.2 5.9 5.4  LNP
*2013–14* 1.4 0.6 6.0 5.9  LNP
*2014–15* 0.3 1.3 6.5 6.1  Labor
*2015–16* 1.6 2.1 6.2 5.9  Labor

Plus another 14,000 unemployed under Labor December 2016...I think you are getting mixed up between Federal and the state of Queensland.


----------



## Ves (21 January 2017)

noco said:


> *2010–11* 1.8 2.4 5.4 5.0  LNP
> *2011–12* 1.3 1.2 5.5 5.2  LNP
> *2012–13* 0.1 1.2 5.9 5.4  LNP
> *2013–14* 1.4 0.6 6.0 5.9  LNP
> ...



You're missing the fact that the LNP was in government until end of January 2015 at which point the unemployment rate was 6.6%.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-29/fact-check3a-job-losses-in-queensland/6030880

I mean it's in the article that YOU linked.  If you think the article is wrong,  then why would you even link it?


----------



## noco (21 January 2017)

Ves said:


> You're missing the fact that the LNP was in government until end of January 2015 at which point the unemployment rate was 6.6%.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-29/fact-check3a-job-losses-in-queensland/6030880
> 
> I mean it's in the article that YOU linked.  If you think the article is wrong,  then why would you even link it?




I think you should check your facts...Labor came to office in Queensland in February 2015....There is no mention of 6.6% unemployment .


----------



## Ves (21 January 2017)

noco said:


> I think you should check your facts...Labor came to office in Queensland in February 2015....There is no mention of 6.6% unemployment .



Yes there is.



> According to the ABS's labour force trend data for December 2014, Queensland's unemployment rate is 6.6 per cent.


----------



## noco (21 January 2017)

Ves said:


> Yes there is.




Yes there is what?


----------



## Ves (21 January 2017)

noco said:


> Yes there is what?



Honestly I'm having a hard time believing you're really this dense.


----------



## noco (22 January 2017)

Ves said:


> Honestly I'm having a hard time believing you're really this dense.




Hey sport, watch your tongue, Joe Blow is doing his best to stamp out character assassination and ridicule.

Most of us are fulfilling his request...So do the right thing and keep it clean.


----------



## noco (22 January 2017)

Ves said:


> Honestly I'm having a hard time believing you're really this dense.




You high lighted a percentage of 6.1%...I just want you to explain where the 6.6% comes in on those statistics....Once again I should remind you the Palaszczuk Labor Government came into office in February 2015.


----------



## boofhead (22 January 2017)

Go to page 4 of the ABS PDF that Ves linked to. It has the Nov and Dec 2014 for each state.


----------



## noco (22 January 2017)

boofhead said:


> Go to page 4 of the ABS PDF that Ves linked to. It has the Nov and Dec 2014 for each state.




I believe this is where the variation comes into the equation.... The data I quoted (6.1%) was actual unemployment figures according to to the Queensland Government Statistics......The figure of 6.6% Ves is quoting was only a trend by the ABS and was seasonally adjusted in December 2014 to 6.1%.

Do you agree with that?


----------



## Ves (22 January 2017)

noco said:


> I believe this is where the variation comes into the equation.... The data I quoted (6.1%) was actual unemployment figures according to to the Queensland Government Statistics......The figure of 6.6% Ves is quoting was only a trend by the ABS and was seasonally adjusted in December 2014 to 6.1%.
> 
> Do you agree with that?



It doesn't say 6.1% for Queensland. The 6.1% is in the Australian column.

It also says in the footnotes down the bottom:



> (a) Data are based on 12-month average.(b) Original series.
> *Source: ABS 6202.0, *_*Labour Force, Australia, Jun 2016*_




_
_


----------



## noco (22 January 2017)

Ves said:


> It doesn't say 6.1% for Queensland. The 6.1% is in the Australian column.
> 
> It also says in the footnotes down the bottom:




Well, actually it does mention QUEENSLAND......You will note the trends and then to the right  are the seasonally adjusted figures which indicates very clearly 6.1% in December 2014 on page 4 ABS....I would say the seasonally adjusted figures would take precedent over trend figures which you seem to be referring to. 

When Anna Bligh was in government she was committed to creating 100,000 jobs in her first year.....T o assist her in obtaining that figure, she enrolled another 14,000 public servants....Most were not gainfully  employed as Campbell Newman found out and in his endeavor to reduce government spending, those 14,000 were made redundant, most of whom were absorbed into private industry.

Then along come Annastacia Palaszczuk who in her wisdom decides to re-engage another 14,000 public servants in the past 2 years..

All of this must have an influence on the unemployment trend.


----------



## Ves (22 January 2017)

noco said:


> Well, actually it does mention QUEENSLAND......You will note the trends and then to the right  are the seasonally adjusted figures which indicates very clearly 6.1% in December 2014 on page 4 ABS....I would say the seasonally adjusted figures would take precedent over trend figures which you seem to be referring to.



Just to clarify I was talking about the page you linked from the QLD Gov site,  not the ABS report I linked.  Which is where you copy/pasted the figures from in the post that you made and I quoted.


----------



## noco (22 January 2017)

noco said:


> Hey sport, watch your tongue, Joe Blow is doing his best to stamp out character assassination and ridicule.
> 
> Most of us are fulfilling his request...So do the right thing and keep it clean.





Ves said:


> Just to clarify I was talking about the page you linked from the QLD Gov site,  not the ABS report I linked.  Which is where you copy/pasted the figures from in the post that you made and I quoted.




Well, if you are referring to the  link I presented from the Queensland Government statistician, it clearly shows 6.1% and not 6.6%....So I am not sure what you are trying to clarify.


----------



## Ves (22 January 2017)

noco said:


> Well, if you are referring to the  link I presented from the Queensland Government statistician, it clearly shows 6.1% and not 6.6%....So I am not sure what you are trying to clarify.



Refer post #1324.

The 6.1% figure in the QLD report you posted is for Australia not QLD.

It's also not from the QLD Gov statistician. The data they are using in the QLD report is sourced from the ABS.


----------



## overhang (22 January 2017)

noco said:


> Well, actually it does mention QUEENSLAND......You will note the trends and then to the right  are the seasonally adjusted figures which indicates very clearly 6.1% in December 2014 on page 4 ABS....I would say the seasonally adjusted figures would take precedent over trend figures which you seem to be referring to.




In the ABC fact check article Ves linked earlier it states 


> The Australian Bureau of Statistics has advised Fact Check that trend data, as opposed to seasonally adjusted data, is a preferable measure.






> But Fact Check has used the ABS's trend data throughout this piece, because the ABS says it is a better measure.
> 
> "The trend is always the better estimate, it smooths the seasonally adjusted out so it is less volatile. It gives you a better measure of the underlying strengths of what's going on in the labour market," Mr Collett said.
> 
> ...




The trend data shows that in December 2014 under Newmans government the unemployment rate was 6.6%, the 2016 December unemployment rate under Palaszczuk was 6.1%.


----------



## Tisme (23 January 2017)

noco said:


> Well, if you are referring to the  link I presented from the Queensland Government statistician, it clearly shows 6.1% and not 6.6%....So I am not sure what you are trying to clarify.




I'm guessing you wished you hadn't opened the lid on this issue. By now you would have realised that raw data is what keeps statisticians in work.


----------



## drsmith (26 January 2017)

Oops!

http://www.perthnow.com.au/business...d/news-story/750135b2fef524065f3a9d43b4bbae49


----------



## PZ99 (26 January 2017)

CentreScare! lol


----------



## Tisme (28 January 2017)

PZ99 said:


> CentreScare! lol




Has this become Bill Shorten's fault yet?


----------



## PZ99 (28 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Has this become Bill Shorten's fault yet?



Indeed. Only the ALP is responsible for these policies


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2017)

WOW, Labor are suggesting apprenticeships and training, now the boom is over, silly Billy front and centre.

Jeez I love the thick skin these muppets wear, why weren't they cranking up apprenticeships, when they were in the middle of the mining boom.
Politicians must have a button on the side of their heads, that re formats their brain.IMO

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...n/news-story/8ca79b389d86f2b366dda7daa32d4ef0

Here is a chart of 457 visas, during the 2008- 20012 Labor run mining boom.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/06/27/glance-457-visa-holders-australia

I didn't see the same enthusiasm by Labor then for apprenticeships, I remember Gina getting a free reign to use 457's at Roy Hill.lol
Snake oil salesmen.IMO

In reality, the W.A election will be a real test of the BS the media puts out, they are saying Barnett will be creamed.

Let's wait and see


----------



## noco (3 February 2017)

I am utterly sick of both Bill Shorten and Malcolm Turnbull's rhetoric every time they front the media...JOBS...JOBS....JOBS but neither say  how they will be created.

2500 jobs to go when Toyota close their doors.......800 jobs to go when Hazelwood power station closes plus all the jobs that are allied in those towns....On Paul Murray tonight six people were interviewed in the town of Morwell and all were concerned how the closure will affect business in Morwell resulting in more going on the unemployment heap and leave the town to go else where to find work.


----------



## sptrawler (9 February 2017)

It is starting to heat up at last, it is about time, wank!ng on over same sex marriage and asylum seekers, isn't cutting it for the silent majority.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-08/turnbull-and-shorten-trade-barbs-during-question-time/8252540
What the politicians have to ask is, how can it be right for pensioners, single parent families and every other welfare recipient to be questioned?
When they don't question Julia Gillard, John Howard and numerous other politicians, getting a tax payer funded obscene pension, without it affecting the tax on other income they earn? That's from my understanding.
It is a bit like the super surcharge impost, politicians didn't have to pay it, Judges didn't have to pay it, senior public servants didn't have to pay it, only plebs had to pay it.lol


----------



## Tisme (9 February 2017)

sptrawler said:


> It is starting to heat up at last, it is about time, wank!ng on over same sex marriage and asylum seekers, isn't cutting it for the silent majority.




I think it's all too late. Perhaps most of us are consigned to the idea of government being a lame duck and social engineering of marriages and sexual orientations a fait accompli.

Both these blokes are going to try on flannel shirts to steer the working class away from Hanson.

The only ones who enjoy it for the moral wins are the sycophantic Barnaby Joyces and similar types on both sides of the house. Many of us who are disconnected with parties see it as score in a sport we don't really like.

Pub test last night = more interested in the imminent rain.


----------



## noco (10 February 2017)

What has Daniel Andrews got to hide?...He is has done nothing wrong, then he has nothing to fear.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...s/news-story/3b74404a75fb601539c79923e5be6980


----------



## drsmith (13 February 2017)

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/for-sale-signs-to-bring-new-life-to-schools-ng-b88381011z



> If you’ve ever fancied living in your own school, complete with a cricket pitch and basketball courts, now’s your chance.
> 
> Buntine Primary School, 300km north of Perth in the heart of wheat, sheep and wildflower country, came on to the market last week — and it’s a steal at $80,000.
> 
> ...






> During a national schools building program run by a previous Labor Federal government, Buntine primary was given a $450,000 multi-purpose classroom and Latham primary got a $650,000 covered assembly area.




Useless Labor Party.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

drsmith said:


> https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/for-sale-signs-to-bring-new-life-to-schools-ng-b88381011z
> 
> 
> Useless Labor Party.




Disgraceful waste and profiteering


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

It would appear Fact check has caught Tanya Plibersek with her pants down around her ankles.

Telling more porkies again.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...w/news-story/6b7694533e340bedd5943c2004028575


----------



## Tisme (18 February 2017)

noco said:


> It would appear Fact check has caught Tanya Plibersek with her pants down around her ankles.
> 
> Telling more porkies again.
> 
> ...




You can't expect anything Bolt writes to be factual. He's a fishwife and prone to the invective when it comes to the ALP.  The Courier Mail mentioned is pulp fiction at best when it comes to the ALP .... most thinking men, like me, are insulted at the lack of fact versus mostly fiction.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You can't expect anything Bolt writes to be factual. He's a fishwife and prone to the invective when it comes to the ALP.  The Courier Mail mentioned is pulp fiction at best when it comes to the ALP .... most thinking men, like me, are insulted at the lack of fact versus mostly fiction.




Tisme you have got yourself in a muddle again....I don't think you are thinking too well this morning.

Andrew Bolt did not write the fact check......He was only the messenger for Peter Rees.

I notice every time you see Andrew Bolts name mentioned your brain appears to snap as though you have seen a ghost coming hurtling out of the sky. 

https://bravenewclimate.com/2015/11/08/the-capacity-factor-of-wind/


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2017)

noco said:


> Tisme you have got yourself in a muddle again....I don't think you are thinking too well this morning.
> 
> Andrew Bolt did not write the fact check......He was only the messenger for Peter Rees.
> 
> ...





I'm merely trying to move you from shorts to trowsers when it come to credible sources of information. Andrew chooses what he wants to print and none of what he favours is up for scrutiny and debate; this would be another ipso facto rant he is prone to and should be treated as the sideshow entertainment of wierd and wonderful that it is. Journalism passed Bolt quietly like a sprite in the night decades ago.

Trolling is not your strong suit Noco, it patently misses the target on most occasions. I suggested before you should join a flame forum to hone your skills if that is the kind of behaviour your aspire to.


----------



## dutchie (19 February 2017)

Bill Shorten:  "There will be no reduction in the 50% renewable energy targets in a government I lead".


----------



## noco (19 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm merely trying to move you from shorts to trowsers when it come to credible sources of information. Andrew chooses what he wants to print and none of what he favours is up for scrutiny and debate; this would be another ipso facto rant he is prone to and should be treated as the sideshow entertainment of wierd and wonderful that it is. Journalism passed Bolt quietly like a sprite in the night decades ago.
> 
> Trolling is not your strong suit Noco, it patently misses the target on most occasions. I suggested before you should join a flame forum to hone your skills if that is the kind of behaviour your aspire to.




Tisme, I do not see any point in lowering myself to your standard of useless rhetoric without any substance......We all know your ego is as high as Mount Everest and when you keep reminding us all about it, it indicates a loss of self esteem.....You certainly did not think too well when you accused Andrew Bolt of writing the fact check which was written by a guy named Peter Ress....It was me that had to change your thinking........So it it is your good self who missed the target and you hated me drawing your attention to yet another mistake.

Now then Tanya Plibersek stated it would cost $28 billion to build a coal fired power station the size of Hazelwood....Do you agree with her?...Or would say the cost is more to the mark of $6 to 7billion.

Bill Shorten was asked on several occasions at various press interviews how much his 50% RET would cost and he as well as Chris Bowen, would answer the question....However, one of Shorten's back bench MPs spilled the beans and stated it would tax payers $48 billion.......Tisme do you agree with her on this cost?


----------



## noco (19 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> Bill Shorten:  "There will be no reduction in the 50% renewable energy targets in a government I lead".




And the extra cost to the tax payer, a cool $48 billion.....Just add it on to the credit card Bill.


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)




----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

noco said:


> Tisme, I do not see any point in lowering myself to your standard of useless rhetoric without any substance......We all know your ego is as high as Mount Everest and when you keep reminding us all about it, it indicates a loss of self esteem.....You certainly did not think too well when you accused Andrew Bolt of writing the fact check which was written by a guy named Peter Ress....It was me that had to change your thinking........So it it is your good self who missed the target and you hated me drawing your attention to yet another mistake.
> 
> Now then Tanya Plibersek stated it would cost $28 billion to build a coal fired power station the size of Hazelwood....Do you agree with her?...Or would say the cost is more to the mark of $6 to 7billion.
> 
> Bill Shorten was asked on several occasions at various press interviews how much his 50% RET would cost and he as well as Chris Bowen, would answer the question....However, one of Shorten's back bench MPs spilled the beans and stated it would tax payers $48 billion.......Tisme do you agree with her on this cost?




Stupid nonsense argument for the sake of argument and you know it. Your blind faith lacks any credibility.


----------



## PZ99 (20 February 2017)

Not disputing any figures here but there is an article that says it would cost beyond $27b in government-guaranteed subsidies to build a new coal plant and I suspect this includes the building, operation, adherence to Co2 targets, decommissioning and finally pricing to the end consumer. It looks like there's more than one correct answer 
http://www.climateinstitute.org.au/...ase-for-new-coal-doesnt-stack-up-04022017.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Not disputing any figures here but there is an article that says it would cost beyond $27b in government-guaranteed subsidies to build a new coal plant and I suspect this includes the building, operation, adherence to Co2 targets, decommissioning and finally pricing to the end consumer. It looks like there's more than one correct answer
> http://www.climateinstitute.org.au/...ase-for-new-coal-doesnt-stack-up-04022017.pdf




I think the COALition is flogging a dead horse when it comes to coal. No one in the energy industry except the coal miners think its viable.

As Smurph mentioned, the geothermal reserves should be validated first to determine if they are viable. If they are then it can deliver virtually emission free baseload power for decades.

Too good to ignore.


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Stupid nonsense argument for the sake of argument and you know it. Your blind faith lacks any credibility.




Says you sonny....You might consider yourself a "KNOW ALL" but you have a lot of learning and growing up to do.

You still cannot give me a straight answer about Phibersek and her outrages cost of a coal fired power station. $28 billion.

You cannot be open and say whether you agree with the cost 0f $48 billion to fund Labor's RET.

So you revert to your usual mountainous rhetoric about being a "STUPID NONSENSE ARGUMENT" .

And you say I lack credibility....I think you should look at yourself in the mirror first.


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the COALition is flogging a dead horse when it comes to coal. No one in the energy industry except the coal miners think its viable.
> 
> As Smurph mentioned, the geothermal reserves should be validated first to determine if they are viable. If they are then it can deliver virtually emission free baseload power for decades.
> 
> Too good to ignore.




Correct me if I wrong, but didn't Kevin Rudd put up $80 million in support of some geothermal scheme run by Tim Flannery.......The scheme ran into problems with terrific corrosion problems...Sorry I don't know the full details.
Geothermal sounds good in theory but I believe they have to overcome the problems associated with it.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

noco said:


> Geothermal sounds good in theory but I believe they have to overcome the problems associated with it.




Problems have been overcome in other countries eg New Zealand although that is a different type of geothermal, the rocks being nearer the surface.

But if research has to be done to overcome problems, then we should do the research.


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Problems have been overcome in other countries eg New Zealand although that is a different type of geothermal, the rocks being nearer the surface.
> 
> But if research has to be done to overcome problems, then we should do the research.




Sir R this is off topic......this thread is about the USELESS LABOR PARTY.....Perhaps we should continue any conversation on the appropriate thread.

I have been to Rotarua twice....Once in 1978 and again in 2007.....In 1978 steam would shoot up through the bitumen roads in many places...Then they tapped into the source for steam to generate power...When I went back in 2007 there were no more steam spouts out of the roads due to over use of the underground steam....Even the old geysers had to be stimulated with packets of washing powder to to make them shoot into the air for the tourist


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Not disputing any figures here but there is an article that says it would cost beyond $27b in government-guaranteed subsidies to build a new coal plant and I suspect this includes the building, operation, adherence to Co2 targets, decommissioning and finally pricing to the end consumer. It looks like there's more than one correct answer
> http://www.climateinstitute.org.au/...ase-for-new-coal-doesnt-stack-up-04022017.pdf




I did some research on www.climateinstitute.org.au and although they state they are an independent organization, privately  funded ( by whom they do not reveal) and not associated with any political party, something they seem to have made a strong point of, they are nevertheless are very  pro Global Warming and Climate change alarmists...When I read through some of their reports and they talk about increase in temperatures of 4c , the alarm bells started to ring....They debunk coal fired power stations as they were some poisonous monster and push their barrow on renewables......

I would put more credence in the figures I presented in my post #1342 with regards to the cost of a 1600 MW coal fired power station the size of Hazelwood.

This Climate Change institute does breath a word of the huge $48 billion required to subsidize  Bill Shortens RET.

So I will have to have reservations on the authenticity of the Climate Change Institute.


----------



## PZ99 (20 February 2017)

noco said:


> I did some research on www.climateinstitute.org.au and although they state they are an independent organization, privately  funded ( by whom they do not reveal) and not associated with any political party, something they seem to have made a strong point of, they are nevertheless are very  pro Global Warming and Climate change alarmists...When I read through some of their reports and they talk about increase in temperatures of 4c , the alarm bells started to ring....They debunk coal fired power stations as they were some poisonous monster and push their barrow on renewables......
> 
> I would put more credence in the figures I presented in my post #1342 with regards to the cost of a 1600 MW coal fired power station the size of Hazelwood.
> 
> ...



I agree.

However given the vast disparity of the figures I also have reservations about a claim from someone who couldn't find any reference on the internet about Tanya Plibersek's $28b claim. I found that article on page 1 of a google search. But my original point is how these figures are collected. Whatever department that $28b claim came from might be quoting the entire life of the station starting with the obligatory PM shovel shot for the media and ending with the site rehab. The other claim of $5b appears to be just the start up and running costs based on subcritical brown coal (cheapest). I just take the view they are 2 different claims.


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the COALition is flogging a dead horse when it comes to coal. No one in the energy industry except the coal miners think its viable.
> 
> .




If energy providers aren't interested the coal miners thoughts are a moot point


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> If energy providers aren't interested the coal miners thoughts are a moot point




Not necessarily if the coal miners pay off enough politicians who then raid the clean energy fund and give the cash back to the coal miners to make the dirty stuff a bit cleaner .


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

noco said:


> Says you sonny....You might consider yourself a "KNOW ALL" but you have a lot of learning and growing up to do.
> 
> You still cannot give me a straight answer about Phibersek and her outrages cost of a coal fired power station. $28 billion.
> 
> ...




 It these abusive posts that have become the hallmark of the pattern abuse you inflict on members if they won't lower their IQs and lay down with fleas. Wilson Tuckey of ASF lol

I really don't know why you have to tirade against sensible debate and start injecting wildly concocted and fanciful stories in the hope someone, anyone will believe them. Anger management is a good place to start if suffering hissy fits and it's probably free under the NDIS... oh hang on that's another Labor prank, bundling it into an omnibus legislation.


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Not necessarily if the coal miners pay off enough politicians who then raid the clean energy fund and give the cash back to the coal miners to make the dirty stuff a bit cleaner .




That's a thinly veiled swipe at the current donor/receiver arrangement I suspect.

Maybe Credlin's admission the other day, that when she was Prime Minister the whole carbon tax et al was,  as we all suspected, a ruse and perhaps voters will be more introspective before throwing their preferences around like a mad women's underpants.


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Not disputing any figures here but there is an article that says it would cost beyond $27b in government-guaranteed subsidies to build a new coal plant and I suspect this includes the building, operation, adherence to Co2 targets, decommissioning and finally pricing to the end consumer. It looks like there's more than one correct answer
> http://www.climateinstitute.org.au/...ase-for-new-coal-doesnt-stack-up-04022017.pdf





I seem to recall we built Callide B for a lot less than that


----------



## PZ99 (20 February 2017)

LOL. I reckon they built Rome for less as well


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> It these abusive posts that have become the hallmark of the pattern abuse you inflict on members if they won't lower their IQs and lay down with fleas. Wilson Tuckey of ASF lol
> 
> I really don't know why you have to tirade against sensible debate and start injecting wildly concocted and fanciful stories in the hope someone, anyone will believe them. Anger management is a good place to start if suffering hissy fits and it's probably free under the NDIS... oh hang on that's another Labor prank, bundling it into an omnibus legislation.




ROFL.......I am still waiting for some sensible answer from you instead of insults...You either agree...disagree....or admit you don't know.

I have told you before, I don't get angry.

When anger rises, think of the consequences.

Sensible people like me are more apt to reason.......Some people prefer to divert attention away from their own anger and change the subject to get them out of trouble and embarrassment....You whistle and I will point.

Tisme, you like to dish it out but you just can't take your own medicine.


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I agree.
> 
> However given the vast disparity of the figures I also have reservations about a claim from someone who couldn't find any reference on the internet about Tanya Plibersek's $28b claim. I found that article on page 1 of a google search. But my original point is how these figures are collected. Whatever department that $28b claim came from might be quoting the entire life of the station starting with the obligatory PM shovel shot for the media and ending with the site rehab. The other claim of $5b appears to be just the start up and running costs based on subcritical brown coal (cheapest). I just take the view they are 2 different claims.




It was an interview by  Andrew Bolt with Tanya Plibersek...When she mentioned about a new coal fired power station, she stated $28 billion and then finished up by saying "*Nobody* thinks it will work".
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...w/news-story/6b7694533e340bedd5943c2004028575


----------



## PZ99 (20 February 2017)

noco said:


> It was an interview by  Andrew Bolt with Tanya Plibersek...When she mentioned about a new coal fired power station, she stated $28 billion and then finished up by saying "*Nobody* thinks it will work".
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...w/news-story/6b7694533e340bedd5943c2004028575



I don't agree with her $28b claim either.

But the reservations I was talking about is this comment from Peter Rees: _"You said to build another coal station would cost $28 billion but I can’t find anything on the internet that supports that claim." ; _Like I said, I had no trouble finding it on google.

And then he goes on to say: _Let’s look at replacement for the giant coal 1600MW Hazlewood station which is closing soon. So it’s $3100 x 1000000 x 1.6 = $4.96 billion.
_
Well we already know Hazelwood was loosing money so it must be more than $4.96 billion 
We also know any new station won't be burning Lignite because it's being phased out in favour of cleaner and more expensive fuel. So building a new coal power station will be more expensive than in the past because of present and future regulatory requirements.


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

noco said:


> It was an interview by  Andrew Bolt with Tanya Plibersek...





Both of them are jokes.


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I don't agree with her $28b claim either.
> 
> But the reservations I was talking about is this comment from Peter Rees: _"You said to build another coal station would cost $28 billion but I can’t find anything on the internet that supports that claim." ; _Like I said, I had no trouble finding it on google.
> 
> ...




Of course they will cost more than the last one lets not kid ourselves...It is called inflation...Higher wages ...higher cost of steel.
How long is it since the last coal fired power station was built?


----------



## PZ99 (20 February 2017)

noco said:


> Of course they will cost more than the last one lets not kid ourselves...It is called inflation...Higher wages ...higher cost of steel.
> How long is it since the last coal fired power station was built?



The claim of $4.96b was in todays money. What Peter Rees has done is simply use the Hazelwood operating costs as a formula to building a new station. But that scenario doesn't work for the reasons previously stated.

I noticed on Q/A today that Tanya Plibersek's claim of $28b has now increased to $60b.

Obviously both claims are wrong because they are over simplistically calculated.  

$28b to $60b in a few days? Now _that's_ inflation LOL


----------



## noco (20 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Both of them are jokes.



I will back Andrew against Tanya any day when it comes to the truth and facts....Tanya could not li


PZ99 said:


> I don't agree with her $28b claim either.
> 
> But the reservations I was talking about is this comment from Peter Rees: _"You said to build another coal station would cost $28 billion but I can’t find anything on the internet that supports that claim." ; _Like I said, I had no trouble finding it on google.
> 
> ...




I think if you read into the link a little further, those estimates came from the CSIRO and not Peter Rees.



PZ99 said:


> The claim of $4.96b was in todays money. What Peter Rees has done is simply use the Hazelwood operating costs as a formula to building a new station. But that scenario doesn't work for the reasons previously stated.
> 
> I noticed on Q/A today that Tanya Plibersek's claim of $28b has now increased to $60b.
> 
> ...




As I have just stated on another thread, the estimates were carried out by the CSIRO and not Peter Rees.


----------



## PZ99 (21 February 2017)

I didn't say Peter Rees made the estimates. But he substituted that estimate into the Hazelwood costs to arrive at a false conclusion. The $3,100 per kW is the cost to build more capacity, not to build a power station outright.

The cost of a new ultra-supercritical coal-fired power station is  $134-203/MWh

This is the actual CSIRO document...

http://www.co2crc.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/LCOE_Report_final_web.pdf

And this is the article leading to it  > https://www.theguardian.com/environ...es-route-emissions-reduction?CMP=share_btn_tw

Presumably it's this article where Tanya Plibersek got her numbers from as well.

* Australia's coal power plan twice as costly as renewables route, report finds *

Researcher says new coal plants aimed at reducing emissions would cost $62b, while the cost using renewables would be $24-$34bn

Resources minister Matthew Canavan and energy and environment minister Josh Frydenberg want new coal power plants to be built in Australia. 

A plan for new coal power plants, which government ministers say could reduce emissions from coal-generated electricity by 27%, would cost more than $60bn, a new analysis has found.

Achieving the same reduction using only renewable energy would cost just half as much – between $24bn and $34bn – the report found.

The resources minister, Matthew Canavan, and the energy and environment minister, Josh Frydenberg, have been arguing for new coal power plants to be built in Australia.


Last week, Canavan released analysis he commissioned from the industry department, which found replacing all Australia’s coal power stations with the latest “ultra super-critical” coal-fired power stations would reduce emissions in that sector by 27%.

Frydenberg has also raised the conclusions in interviews, and promoted the benefits of coal power.

Neither has responded to questions about the cost of reducing coal-fired power emissions by 27% using the latest technology.

So Dylan McConnell from the Climate and Energy College at the University of Melbourne crunched the numbers, and found that the 27% reduction in the coal sector could be achieved, but it would cost $62bn.

McConnell said at a conservative estimate, achieving the reduction would require 20GW of new capacity. According to the latest estimates from the CSIRO, new ultra super-critical black coal costs $3,100 per kW to build.

“No wonder no one wants to talk about the costs,” McConnell said.

He said $62bn would be enough to build between 35GW and 39GW of wind and solar energy. Because that would produce less electricity than 20GW of coal power, it would not completely replace coal power, but it would reduce its emissions by up to 65%.

And that would amount to an emissions reduction of between 50% and 60% in the electricity sector as a whole*.*

McConnell found that if the 27% reduction in emissions from the coal generation sector were to be achieved with renewables, rather than with new coal, about 13-19GW of renewable energy would be needed, which would cost between $24bn and $34bn.

He said the scenario proposed by Canavan and Frydenberg would end up with 20GW of highly polluting coal power stations that were unlikely to be retired for decades.

On the other hand, McConnell said, if that money were spent on renewables, it would leave some coal and gas in place, which ultimately would still need to be removed to meet long-term emissions reduction targets.

Neither Canavan nor Frydenberg responded to questions about the costs of building new coal power stations. In a statement, Frydenberg said only that the government was committed to a “technology neutral” approach to meeting emissions targets.

“Arbitrarily excluding certain technologies for ideological reasons will lead to higher cost outcomes,” the statement said.

The Opposition spokesman for climate change and energy, Mark Butler, said: “This analysis clearly shows the government is off on an economically and environmentally irresponsible frolic with their trumpeting of ‘clean coal’.

“As the Australian Industry Group and many others have made clear, replacing our existing coal power with more coal power just doesn’t stack up; either on environmental or economic grounds.

“This is just the latest effort of a weak government to appease its irrational extreme right wing and distract from the fact they’re simply incapable of delivering real policy solutions to our significant energy challenges,” Butler said.

McConnell pointed out that the latest coal-powered fire stations were not at all “clean”. They produced about 700 grams of CO2 for every kilowatt hour of electricity – much more than the 400 grams from new combined cycle gas turbines, and much more than the average produced by OECD countries, 420 grams per kilowatt hour in 2014, according to the International Energy Agency.

OECD countries will need to reduce that figure to just 15 grams per kilowatt hour if the world is to keep global temperature increases below 2C, the agency has said.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> The claim of $4.96b was in todays money. What Peter Rees has done is simply use the Hazelwood operating costs as a formula to building a new station. But that scenario doesn't work for the reasons previously stated.
> 
> I noticed on Q/A today that Tanya Plibersek's claim of $28b has now increased to $60b.
> 
> ...




Did Tanya claim $28bn cost as her own guess?  Do you have a transcript of what she actually said? 

After watching QANDA last night and reading the selective piece by Simone Koob this morning I'm wondering if we aren't witnessing another Murdoch Liberal Party campaign against information.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2017)

noco said:


> How long is it since the last coal fired power station was built?




Probably one I was involved in


----------



## PZ99 (21 February 2017)

I think it was Kogan Creek around 10 years ago?

Not sure where Tanya got the $28b figure from on the Bolt report. 

I'm going off what that viewer said.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2017)

Y


PZ99 said:


> I think it was Kogan Creek around 10 years ago?
> 
> Not sure where Tanya got the $28b figure from on the Bolt report.
> 
> I'm going off what that viewer said.





Yeah I must admit, I did call BS on our man north of the Gympie line before actually checking on my gut feel it was the usual anti ALP gutter tripe Bolt trots out, for the small thinkers who hide in plain sight.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2017)

Still can't easily find the video interview nor can I find out who is and what qualifications the fact checker  Peter Rees has.


----------



## PZ99 (21 February 2017)

Neither can I. lol


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Neither can I. lol




Well I guess that's been fact checked by ASF and found wanting.


----------



## noco (21 February 2017)

PZ99 said:


> I think it was Kogan Creek around 10 years ago?
> 
> Not sure where Tanya got the $28b figure from on the Bolt report.
> 
> I'm going off what that viewer said.




The last coal fired power station built was in 2001.


----------



## PZ99 (21 February 2017)

noco said:


> The last coal fired power station built was in 2001.



Kogan Creek was built in 2004 and opened in 2007. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogan_Creek_Power_Station


----------



## dutchie (23 February 2017)

Bleak - from the Australian





	

		
			
		

		
	
 No its a votes thing.

Disgusting Labor sells out Israel for votes


----------



## noco (23 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> Bleak - from the Australian
> View attachment 70049
> 
> 
> ...




As Richo stated with Labor......"What ever it takes to win".


----------



## dutchie (23 February 2017)

Shorten is such a fake.

First there was the fake tradie.....

Now it's the fake retail worker (ok he work's for Coles but he won't be affected by the changes)

Is he the new 'Fake Tradie'? Ordinary 'retail worker' introduced by Bill Shorten to attack the penalty rate cuts as a 'disgrace' is a gym-loving Labor Party volunteer

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pporter-slams-penalty-cuts-retail-worker.html


----------



## Tisme (23 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> Shorten is such a fake.
> 
> First there was the fake tradie.....
> 
> ...





I love it when they (holier than though pollies) get caught out


----------



## sptrawler (24 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> Shorten is such a fake.
> 
> First there was the fake tradie.....
> 
> ...




You would think, they would have the sense to use a genuine example, just dumb as usual. Silly Billy.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

Even with warnings from the CEO of Bluescope Steel, those dumb Labor people in Federal, SA and VIC are still intent on proceeding with a 50% RET......Shorten is hell bent on chasing industry overseas where power is cheaper.......Then he will be screaming from the roof tops blaming the Liberal party for the loss of jobs......We need new base load power stations whether driven by coal or gas and we need them as soon as possible.
Wake up barnacle Bill.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...e/news-story/393a07b6e53e376c70c11043660c931c


----------



## Tisme (25 February 2017)

noco said:


> Even with warnings from the CEO of Bluescope Steel, those dumb Labor people in Federal, SA and VIC are still intent on proceeding with a 50% RET......Shorten is hell bent on chasing industry overseas where power is cheaper.......Then he will be screaming from the roof tops blaming the Liberal party for the loss of jobs......We need new base load power stations whether driven by coal or gas and we need them as soon as possible.
> Wake up barnacle Bill.
> 
> http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...e/news-story/393a07b6e53e376c70c11043660c931c





You up to speed with your govt of choice ? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...e-energy-target-tony-abbott-criticism/8222500

"The Federal Government has set a target of producing 33,000 gigawatt-hours of renewable energy by 2020, although this was downgraded from 41,000 gigawatts hours under the Abbott government."

That down from 31% under Abbott to 23% under Shallow Mal by 2020.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You up to speed with your govt of choice ? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...e-energy-target-tony-abbott-criticism/8222500
> 
> "The Federal Government has set a target of producing 33,000 gigawatt-hours of renewable energy by 2020, although this was downgraded from 41,000 gigawatts hours under the Abbott government."
> 
> That down from 31% under Abbott to 23% under Shallow Mal by 2020.




Tisme, that is all old hat...Tell us something new.


----------



## Tisme (25 February 2017)

noco said:


> Tisme, that is all old hat...Tell us something new.





I just did, but you choose to ignore it. YOU voted in a govt that advocates RET. YOU voted in a govt that tied funding to handing control of state owned power generation to private enterprise and federal govt oversight. YOU are the reason the RET exists.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> I just did, but you choose to ignore it. YOU voted in a govt that advocates RET. YOU voted in a govt that tied funding to handing control of state owned power generation to private enterprise and federal govt oversight. YOU are the reason the RET exists.




Firstly, you have no idea who I voted for at the last election.....only assumed....... The word A-S-S-U-M-E  makes an ass out of you and me......So you are wrong again.

The Government RET is 23%....The Green/Labor socialist coalition wants at 50% and for the "SMALL" price of $48 billion.......As far as I am concerned I would sooner see the whole RET crap thrown in the bloody bin.

So which power stations were handed over to private enterprise and by which governments?

So what a foolish statement you make......I am the reason the RET exists.....

Wrong again....When will ever get things right Tisme?.....You seem to **** up a lot lately.


----------



## Tisme (25 February 2017)

noco said:


> Firstly, you have no idea who I voted for at the last election.....only assumed....... The word A-S-S-U-M-E  makes an ass out of you and me......So you are wrong again.
> 
> The Government RET is 23%....The Green/Labor socialist coalition wants at 50% and for the "SMALL" price of $48 billion.......As far as I am concerned I would sooner see the whole RET crap thrown in the bloody bin.
> 
> ...




Of course you did, even though you said you voted Pauline in previous posts, we know you really voted for the LNP preference.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Of course you did, even though you said you voted Pauline in previous posts, we know you really voted for the LNP preference.




Geez Tisme, when will you ever get things right again..

Divert....divert.....divert....Where is your answer to  the sale of the power stains and by which governments?


----------



## Tisme (26 February 2017)

noco said:


> Geez Tisme, when will you ever get things right again..
> 
> Divert....divert.....divert....Where is your answer to  the sale of the power stains and by which governments?




I don't know why you quick to keyboard the Labor Party being an anathema in your life, but not own up to being whatever Labor isn't, which means LNP two party preferred, given you view social equity as some kind of red under the bed stunt.

Insofar as sale of power stations, they are regulated by the Turnbull Govt via one of their depts. The states became subjugated into that position in return for federal funding of, often disparate projects like roads. Irregardless of how you want to paint it, the Govt of the day has the opportunity to undo what previous govts perceivably got wrong..... a plank this and the previous Abbott Govt were voted in to do and so far managed to exacerbate the problems rather than fix them. Everyone, but the Federal Govt is to blame for their own ineptitude.


----------



## noco (26 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> I don't know why you quick to keyboard the Labor Party being an anathema in your life, but not own up to being whatever Labor isn't, which means LNP two party preferred, given you view social equity as some kind of red under the bed stunt.
> 
> Insofar as sale of power stations, they are regulated by the Turnbull Govt via one of their depts. The states became subjugated into that position in return for federal funding of, often disparate projects like roads. Irregardless of how you want to paint it, the Govt of the day has the opportunity to undo what previous govts perceivably got wrong..... a plank this and the previous Abbott Govt were voted in to do and so far managed to exacerbate the problems rather than fix them. Everyone, but the Federal Govt is to blame for their own ineptitude.




You still cant give a straight answer can you........Typical of your tactic when you think you know everything but you really don't know $hit from clay.

Both political parties have sold off power stations and probably more by Labor.......There was more sell off between private enterprise.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2004/04/23/the-great-australian-power-sell-off/


----------



## Tisme (27 February 2017)

See Useless Labor at 55% to LNP's 45% TPP.

And One Nation has drawn with the Greens in popular vote.


----------



## noco (27 February 2017)

I watched Question time in parliament today and every question asked by the opposition related to  the reduction in some penalty rates and each time the Green/Labor socialist coalition was knocked out with the same answer.......Labor was like a bunch of white cockatoos.......They were all give the same lines......They were like a cracked and broken record.......Cocky wants a cracker ......Cocky wants a cracker.

In case some of you don't know, the Product Committee Commission was the brain  child of Bill Shorten and many on that committee are ex union officials.......Bill Shorten along with the majority of the Labor Party stated they would accept the umpires decision no matter what.......If the decision had gone the other way, Shorten would would as happy as a pig in $hit....Now having said he would accept the umpire's decision, Why has he done a 180 degree turn?

Poor old Bill was reminded on several occasions how he diddled the workers of Clean Event and Chiquita of $400,000,000 in wages and penalty rates for a donation to the AWU from the companies involved...He was not concerned about those workers at the time and he still has no genuine concerned for poor paid workers now......Even Chris Bowen said, the lowering of penalty rates to certain industries would create more jobs and allow business to stay open longer..... It is all about political point scoring.


----------



## Tisme (27 February 2017)

Labour didn't need to do much in question time today. The LNP faces said it all ..... deadman walking PM and the rest trying to figure out how to suck up to Abbott,


----------



## noco (27 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Labour didn't need to do much in question time today. The LNP faces said it all ..... deadman walking PM and the rest trying to figure out how to suck up to Abbott,




Pathetic.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2017)

noco said:


> Pathetic.




You are right. Question Time is pathetic.

That theatrical clown Turnbull thinking he's back in court and the jury is going to swallow his overblown rhetoric and diversionary tactics to avoid answering any question apart from the ones that suit him.

As for that clown Barnaby Joyce, ranting and raving with a red face like a six year old.

Again, completely pathetic.


----------



## Tisme (28 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are right. Question Time is pathetic.
> 
> That theatrical clown Turnbull thinking he's back in court and the jury is going to swallow his overblown rhetoric and diversionary tactics to avoid answering any question apart from the ones that suit him.
> 
> ...




Yes I agree with you and Noco, but it's still great theatre watching grown men behave like primary schoolers vying to be teacher's pet.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2017)

Actually you have a point noco, the fair work commission was a re engineered Industrial Commission, to make it biased toward the worker and was designed by Labor.
So to now try and debunk it seems a bit weird, unless Labor can show good cause, like if the LNP has thrown everyone out and put their own goons in.
Otherwise it is still the Labor Party goon show.lol
If that is the case, why are Labor complaining, oh I forgot, say anything to get a vote Bill. Dumb


----------



## noco (28 February 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Actually you have a point noco, the fair work commission was a re engineered Industrial Commission, to make it biased toward the worker and was designed by Labor.
> So to now try and debunk it seems a bit weird, unless Labor can show good cause, like if the LNP has thrown everyone out and put their own goons in.
> Otherwise it is still the Labor Party goon show.lol
> If that is the case, why are Labor complaining, oh I forgot, say anything to get a vote Bill. Dumb




Those reduced penalty rates only apply to 7% of workers.....And they are in the hospitality industry.
I once read where a person just washing up was paid $42 per hour on public holidays


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2017)

Most industries moved to a $/hr rate years ago, this actually was supported by the unions, as they feared penalty rates weren't sustainable.
Most working in the mining industry, just work on a dollar per hour basis, could you imagine the arguements with FIFO.
"You worked two Sundays on your swing, I haven't got a Sunday in for three swings".
It is nonsense, the union and Labor should be screaming for a resetting of the base wage, as 24/7 is now the norm.
To compensate the loss of penalties, the base rate should be lifted, then no one loses. (at this point in time)
It is a loss of conditions, but that was brought about by people wanting shops to be open 7 days a week, not by business forcing the public to shop.
Somewhat like everyone driving a Toyota Corolla, complaining about the Australian car industry closing, weird Australian ideology.


----------



## Tisme (1 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Otherwise it is still the Labor Party goon show.lol
> If that is the case, why are Labor complaining, oh I forgot, say anything to get a vote Bill. Dumb




Well that's what the the Murdoch Liberal Party would have you believe, but I'm wondering if predicating, predications on predications is really a logical way of concluding the commission is a Labor crony.

here is a list...perhaps Noco can rank them in order of from Fabian down through neutral and into Fabian territory.

https://www.fwc.gov.au/about-us/members-panels/list-commission-members


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

I read somewhere, that Victoria is thinking about imposing a tax, on houses that are not lived in or rented.
That should work a treat for house prices in Country Towns.lol


----------



## PZ99 (6 March 2017)

Tell the tax office the kidz are alright LOL. Vic Govt are also cutting stamp duty for first home buyers which will probably be capitalised into home prices and make them even higher whilst slashing Govt revenue. Daft idea IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Tell the tax office the kidz are alright LOL. Vic Govt are also cutting stamp duty for first home buyers which will probably be capitalised into home prices and make them even higher whilst slashing Govt revenue. Daft idea IMO.



I can't understand why these idiots don't just shut up, it really does highlight the flaw in our political process, people who can't recognise their limitations get voted in.
It is a shambles, from the outside looking in, S.A are a complete bunch of dicks, that wanted to go green but wanted someone else to clean up the nappy.
Now we have Victoria, putting themselves in a pincer movement, pay out a contact for a road they needed, shut a power station they need and tax people who can't rent their houses. 
Jeez sounds like great management.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Now we have Victoria, putting themselves in a pincer movement, pay out a contact for a road they needed, shut a power station they need and tax people who can't rent their houses.




You are aware that Victoria don't own that power station aren't you ?

Kennet sold it off in the '90's, a French company shut it down.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are aware that Victoria don't own that power station aren't you ?
> 
> Kennet sold it off in the '90's, a French company shut it down.



Really doesn't matter, if your idiot premier hadn't given away $1billion to shut down a road they are now going to build, they could have built that salt storage power station you keep going on about.
But hey, you can't say the bleeding obvious, to the blind.OMG
Don't worry I think W.A will go down the same idiot path, it seems logical thought goes out the window with the enamoured Labor faithfull


----------



## Tisme (7 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I can't understand why these idiots don't just shut up, it really does highlight the flaw in our political process, people who can't recognise their limitations get voted in.
> It is a shambles, from the outside looking in, S.A are a complete bunch of dicks, that wanted to go green but wanted someone else to clean up the nappy.
> Now we have Victoria, putting themselves in a pincer movement, pay out a contact for a road they needed, shut a power station they need and tax people who can't rent their houses.
> Jeez sounds like great management.




You are getting angry, presumably because the WA polls aren't in your favour.

If you listened to the ABC radio interview I posted and subsequently so did Rumpole, you might take on a different more obtuse view of why things are where they are.

Insofar as SA, I understand that the winds coming from the great Australian Bight are a major reason for the private enterprise clustering their efforts there,,,, that and a favourable  bureaucracy


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Really doesn't matter, if your idiot premier hadn't given away $1billion to shut down a road they are now going to build, they could have built that salt storage power station you keep going on about.




He's not my Premier , I'm in NSW. 

I'm just trying to correct your false impression that the Victorian government owns Hazelwood, which they don't.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm just trying to correct your false impression that the Victorian government owns Hazelwood, which they don't.



That doesn't diminish their accountability, for security of supply, they can say it isn't their responsibility but they are still accountable for the resultant mess.
Therein lies the problem for Government, they can say it isn't our fault, but they still have to fix it that's what they are paid for.
S.A is looking at ways to mitigate their disaster, they will have to come up with something that is politically palatable to the voting public. After all they will have to pay for it.
Your idea that it isn't the Governments problem, is just a joke, of course it is the Governments problem.
The whole State sitting there in darkness, isn't going to pontificate on which private company is to blame, the Government of the day will wear it.
The Victorian Government, should be stepping in and making some rulings, as to the orderly shutting down of Hazelwood. Or at least be putting in place, backup plans, to mitigate its loss of generation.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The Victorian Government, should be stepping in and making some rulings, as to the orderly shutting down of Hazelwood. Or at least be putting in place, backup plans, to mitigate its loss of generation.




Yes, and because we have a (almost national) grid  so should the Federal government who are just playing the blame game and shifting it all onto the States.

At the least there should be a Federal/State energy summit to decide the next course of action. This is a technical subject so it should include engineers, scientists and financiers as well as consumer groups.

Hawke would have done something similar, I doubt Turnbull has the vision.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Hawke would have done something similar, I doubt Turnbull has the vision.





I would have said that Hawke owned accords and therefore they are poison to the LNP.


----------



## noco (8 March 2017)

I realize how much people of the left hate  Andrew Bolt, but this is must to listen to.....He is right on the money.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2017)

noco said:


> I realize how much people of the left hate  Andrew Bolt, but this is must to listen to.....He is right on the money.




Not sure how lefties see him, but i know I see him as a fool and a tool.

Besides he is often wrong e.g.

"“Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has fumbled the rescue, delivering less than he promised for twice the price,” wrote Bolt. “Bottom line, Turnbull is still giving us an NBN that costs double what he himself promised and is running four years behind."


----------



## noco (8 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Not sure how lefties see him, but i know I see him as a fool and a tool.
> 
> Besides he is often wrong e.g.
> 
> "“Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has fumbled the rescue, delivering less than he promised for twice the price,” wrote Bolt. “Bottom line, Turnbull is still giving us an NBN that costs double what he himself promised and is running four years behind."




So you are saying he does not speack the truth...Prove it to me.

You seem to forget, Conroy and Rudd designed the NBN on the back of an envelope mid air somewhere.....No cost analysis just a thought bubble......the rest they left to the current government to sort out.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> I would have said that Hawke owned accords and therefore they are poison to the LNP.




Yes, the LNP don't need anyone to tell them how to do nothing.


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

noco said:


> So you are saying he does not speack the truth...Prove it to me.
> 
> You seem to forget, Conroy and Rudd designed the NBN on the back of an envelope mid air somewhere.....No cost analysis just a thought bubble......the rest they left to the current government to sort out.





So you are saying Malcolm did bugger the NBN? Or are you employing a third eye that provides alternative facts?


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, the LNP don't need anyone to tell them how to do nothing.





If it ain't certified halal Murdoch Liberal it is bad stuff.


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> So you are saying Malcolm did bugger the NBN? Or are you employing a third eye that provides alternative facts?
> 
> View attachment 70282




No I am not saying Turnbull stuffed up the NBN........What I do know is Conroy told a heap of lies about NBN and what he had achieved during his term......He left one hell of a mess that had to be sorted out.

The third eye you refer to is OFF TOPIC and nothing to do with the NBN.

You are grasping at straws.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

noco said:


> No I am not saying Turnbull stuffed up the NBN........What I do know is Conroy told a heap of lies about NBN and what he had achieved during his term......He left one hell of a mess that had to be sorted out.
> 
> The third eye you refer to is OFF TOPIC and nothing to do with the NBN.
> 
> You are grasping at straws.




A. Why didn't John Howard with all his billions from the mining boom never mention an NBN in 11 years and

B. If the idea was rubbish in the first place, why didn't the Libs just drop it when they got in ?


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> A. Why didn't John Howard with all his billions from the mining boom never mention an NBN in 11 years and
> 
> B. If the idea was rubbish in the first place, why didn't the Libs just drop it when they got in ?




John Howard was much smarter than Labor and that is the first reason.

Howard knew it would have been a costly investment into a technology that will be obsolete by the time it is finished........I also believe he would have been far more astute than Labor and would have done a cost benefit analysis instead of a hair brain scheme designed on the back of an envelope in mid air by a couple of hair brain idiots.

Unlike the Victorian Government who tear up contracts costing the tax payers $1 billion plus, Howard was an honourable man  and did the right thing by taking on a mess Labor left behind.

Labor in Queensland had the benefits of the mining boom also but still went into debt to the tune of $80 billion even after selling off $18 billion of Queensland's assets.

At least Howard left a surplus of $22 billion for Labor to squander.


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

noco said:


> No I am not saying Turnbull stuffed up the NBN........What I do know is Conroy told a heap of lies about NBN and what he had achieved during his term......He left one hell of a mess that had to be sorted out.
> 
> The third eye you refer to is OFF TOPIC and nothing to do with the NBN.
> 
> You are grasping at straws.




No just agreeing with Andrew ... isn't that what you want. Golly you're a tough audience.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

noco said:


> John Howard was much smarter than Labor and that is the first reason.




So what about question B. ?


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> No just agreeing with Andrew ... isn't that what you want. Golly you're a tough audience.




Tisme, that is not true...where did I mention Andrew Bolt?.....You are way of course and heading for the rocks.

That was my own personal opinion from observation over the years...

Bolt has nothing to do with it......You have bungled things again in your usual fashion.


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

Dan Andrews appears to be in the same boat as Turnbull.......It is sinking fast.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...s/news-story/f5e3c197d3790e69735e6740ec179632


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

Victoria has money to burn.

https://www.facebook.com/CARBONTAXW...174501315763/1385531271513407/?type=3&theater


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

Junior said
*The level of US military spending is abhorrent. 3x the amount China spends and equivalent to the total spend of the next 8 biggest spending nations combined (or up to the next 13 biggest, depending which stats you use).

Imagine what could be achieved with those funds if they halved spending, for example? Universal free/affordable healthcare would be easily achievable, for example.*

During the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd era 2007/2013, the Green/Labor socialist coalition reduced spending on ADF to 1.8% of GDP....Th lowest since 1938 and what did we get out of that reduction? ....ZILCH .....

No naval boats built in Australia in those 6 years.
Pink bats which burnt down 200 homes and killed 4 workers.
An influx of Muslim illegal immigrants and 1250 deaths at sea which cost $11 billion at the time and is still costing us plenty in social welfare.
Over priced Gillard school halls.
A carbon tax which cost house holders dearly.......(There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead).
An unfunded NDIS...The NDIS which was supposed to be funded with Swannies MRT which cost more to administer than what it received.
Howard's surplus of $22bullion blown away in the first few months plus an enormous debt left behind when they kicked out and their legacy continues with high spending to keep up with it all.
Now we have a stupid RET which is costly consumers the Earth......Black outs continue in SA and in Vic. it is about to get worse.
The NBN designed on the back of an envelope by Conroy and Rudd mid air with no cost benefit analysis.

And Junior it has all ended in heartache for us, our kids and our grand kids.

But I must admit people have short memories and the naive will let Labor in again to do the same things.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2017)

noco said:


> An influx of Muslim illegal immigrants and 1250 deaths at sea which cost $11 billion at the time and is still costing us plenty in social welfare.




As Dutton pointed out, it was Malcolm Fraser that started the influx of Muslim refugees by allowing large numbers of Lebanese into the country.

We are now wearing the effects of that.


----------



## Tisme (10 March 2017)

noco said:


> Tisme, that is not true...where did I mention Andrew Bolt?.....You are way of course and heading for the rocks.
> 
> That was my own personal opinion from observation over the years...
> 
> Bolt has nothing to do with it......You have bungled things again in your usual fashion.




Sorry I thought you were a Bolt fan boy and whatever he says goes.


----------



## Tisme (10 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As Dutton pointed out, it was Malcolm Fraser that started the influx of Muslim refugees by allowing large numbers of Lebanese into the country.
> 
> We are now wearing the effects of that.




Liberal Party ... the one that no longer exists ?


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Liberal Party ... the one that no longer exists ?




They are running around like headless chooks aren't they ? Afraid of offending the Right, desperately bashing the class enemy for their own mistakes, pathetic really.


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As Dutton pointed out, it was Malcolm Fraser that started the influx of Muslim refugees by allowing large numbers of Lebanese into the country.
> 
> We are now wearing the effects of that.




but no where near 50,000.

200,000 mostly from South East Asia over 7 years including 2000 Vietnamese who arrived by boat with documents.


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As Dutton pointed out, it was Malcolm Fraser that started the influx of Muslim refugees by allowing large numbers of Lebanese into the country.
> 
> We are now wearing the effects of that.




Fraser brought in 4000 Lebanese Muslims and it is the second generation who have caused the most problems......The majority he allowed in from Vietnam had the appropriate paper work....They did not throw them overboard like the 50,000 Rudd/Gillard allowed in.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...s/news-story/0e447d68c5d9b8a47218dc3f03cff0fc


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> No just agreeing with Andrew ... isn't that what you want. Golly you're a tough audience.




Where does Andrew (Bolt) fit into this one.....You don't seem to recognise that I do have my own opinion.......You seen to be saddled with Boltphobia every time I post an opinion.

Get real Tisme.


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So what about question B. ?




Go back and read post#1424....You seemed to have conveniently skipped a line or two...You probably had a brain fart while reading it and missed that line.

*"Unlike the Victorian Government who tear up contracts costing the tax payers $1 billion plus, Howard was an honourable man and did the right thing by taking on a mess Labor left behind."*


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2017)

noco said:


> Go back and read post#1424....You seemed to have conveniently skipped a line or two...You probably had a brain fart while reading it and missed that line.
> 
> *"Unlike the Victorian Government who tear up contracts costing the tax payers $1 billion plus, Howard was an honourable man and did the right thing by taking on a mess Labor left behind."*





That's bullshite noco. The NBN was well after Howard. The Rudd government thought of it remember ? Abbott had the opportunity to say the NBN was rubbish but he went ahead with it.

Your memory must be failing old fella.


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That's bullshite noco. The NBN was well after Howard. The Rudd government thought of it remember ? Abbott had the opportunity to say the NBN was rubbish but he went ahead with it.
> 
> Your memory must be failing old fella.




Yes you are right for once......I should have stated Abbott being  the honourable man to continue with the NBN under Malcolm Turnbull's guidance.

You don't hear much about these days, so I guess everyone is happy with the progress.


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

noco said:


> Yes you are right for once......I should have stated Abbott being  the honourable man to continue with the NBN under Malcolm Turnbull's guidance.
> 
> You don't hear much about these days, so I guess everyone is happy with the progress.




Rumpy, it has all come back to me now.......When I said Howard instead of Abbott that was the night I over indulged in the good drop from Scotland.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

How the mighty Labor Party and their comrades in the unions look after their workers....Just have a look at the hardships created by Labor in Morwell.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...n/news-story/6b1aed1404b4936896320686b9119f6d


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2017)

The NBN is a joke always was a joke, it was dreamt up on the back of a napkin and was always going to cost us a fortune for F all return.
It was a dumb waste of a great opportunity, to spend tax payers money, to build better infrastructure.
The last thing we needed, at that point was faster internet, maybe better rail systems, better port access, maybe sodium storage generation.
But bling speed internet, to poor socio economic areas, rather than commercial hubs sounds like social engineering to me. Or maybe that may be vote buying, FFS I hope Labor have got that out of there system, after the NBN stuff up.
If not we are in for a World of pain, Turbull is and always was a FW, but the media and Labor have got him back in charge.
So Labor are a shoe in for the next election, woopy do Labor Federal and Labor States, that should be really interesting. 
Strap yourselves in.lol


----------



## explod (22 March 2017)




----------



## PZ99 (23 March 2017)

Sounds good although to be fair Malcolm Turnbull inherited a debt ridden budget position from Labor, an economic basket case from Tony Abbott and a hostile senate.

The worst thing the Libs could have done in this environment was to support wage cuts for Sunday workers. After that the polls for the Govt was 45% 2pp.


----------



## moXJO (23 March 2017)

explod said:


>



Yeah by spending and debt. Big difference.


----------



## noco (30 March 2017)

Another corrupt Labor MP Ian McDonald spends his first night in jail.


----------



## dutchie (30 March 2017)

If we ignore them, will they go away? Excruciating moment ex-minister Brendan O'Connor begs for questions via text after he called a media conference and NO ONE showed up


Not a single journalist turned up to press conference held by Brendan O'Connor
The Shadow Minister for Employment was due to speak about penalty rates
Only a handful of cameramen showed up for the conference in Canberra
Mr O'Connor slammed the state of 'mainstream media' and shook his head
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Brendan-O-Connor-holds-press-conference.html

Call a press conference and they will come...
or maybe not.
Ha, ha, ha.
O'Connor is useless alright.


----------



## PZ99 (30 March 2017)

LOL! So Labor aren't the media darling as frequently asserted by Tory supporters?

I'd say the press have just done the so-called Labor apparatchiks a favour!


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2017)

It seems  lot of "Fair Work Commission" Officers are pulling the pin and taking cosy pension deals.
It is lucky, no body can point a finger at who appointed them, and the background that made them exceedingly suitable for the position.
Thanks for their efforts.
Nice to see, the trough hasn't dried up, yet.
Somebody needs to get a handle on these political pensions, it is outrageous that they hammer normal pensioners, while supporting political rorts.


----------



## moXJO (31 March 2017)

sptrawler said:


> It seems  lot of "Fair Work Commission" Officers are pulling the pin and taking cosy pension deals.
> It is lucky, no body can point a finger at who appointed them, and the background that made them exceedingly suitable for the position.
> Thanks for their efforts.
> Nice to see, the trough hasn't dried up, yet.
> Somebody needs to get a handle on these political pensions, it is outrageous that they hammer normal pensioners, while supporting political rorts.




A lot of these guys live in an alternate universe, where the think it is their right to be paid from public taxpayers money.
I wonder just how many of these sorts of pensions are being paid out there.


----------



## noco (5 April 2017)

*Everyday’ people paid to endorse South Australia energy plan*




Baker John Opie says he never asked about the energy plan. Picture: Kelly Barnes

The Australian
12:00AM April 5, 2017
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135
*Meredith Booth*




Reporter
Adelaide
@MeredithBooth




*Michael Owen*




SA Bureau Chief
Adelaide
@mjowen




John Opie says he was paid $1800 to say “my business depends on it” in a $500,000 South Australian government advertising campaign spruiking Jay Weatherill’s new energy plan, which the baker was never shown.

Mr Opie, a small-business owner in a blue-ribbon Liberal electorate, says he was never told what “it” was in the slogan he was paid by the taxpayer to repeat for the Labor government’s cameras.

He is yet to even read the Premier’s $550 million six-point “self-sufficient” energy plan on which his bakery apparently “depends”, despite the plan being released three weeks ago.

Mr Opie said electricity was a big expense for his suburban bakery and costs had risen 33 per cent during the past year, from an average of $910 a month to $1216.

His revelations came after he was approached by _The Australian _at his Unley bakery yesterday.

Mr Opie’s statements confirm Opposition Leader Steven Marshall’s concerns that the everyday people who appear in the government’s advertising campaign were not given details of the energy policy before endorsing his new plan.

“They didn’t give me any written information or explain anything to me. Mind you, I didn’t ask,’’ he said.

The producer of the advertisement, Mark Evans, is a regular bakery customer and one day offered to pay Mr Opie for four hours’ work.

Mr Opie, who appears for a few seconds in the television commercial and on two big billboards near his bakery, thought the job would be an opportunity to promote his small business.

Mr Weatherill also paid for morning tea at Mr Opie’s bakery with the other “actors” in the advertising campaign — an elderly woman and a mother and child — after the shoot, Mr Opie said.

Mr Marshall said the payment was equal to “cash for comment” and has questioned the taxpayer-funded campaign’s legitimacy.

South Australian Energy Minister Tom Koutsantonis told ABC radio on Monday that he didn’t know whether the people in the advertisements were paid. “But they are all real people involved in real industries. Whether they were paid to be in the ads I don’t know but I can find out and I’ll let your listeners know,” he said.

Yesterday, a government spokeswoman told _The Australian _that money paid to those involved in the campaign was “commercial in confidence”.

“Instead of attacking hardworking South Australians, Mr Marshall’s time would be better spent developing an energy plan of his own,’’ she said. “As previously disclosed, $500,000 has been budgeted for the development and production of newspaper, radio and television ads.”

Yesterday, deputy Liberal leader Vickie Chapman said the ALP was “so desperate in South Australia that they are using public money to buy friends”.

“Paying someone to support a plan that they have never read is one of the most ridiculous tactics that I’ve come across ... If Mr Weatherill and Mr Koutsantonis think that this is an appropriate use of taxpayer funds, their Labor colleagues should remove them.”

*How desperate the SA Government and Weatherill have become.*


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2017)

noco said:


> “Paying someone to support a plan that they have never read is one of the most ridiculous tactics that I’ve come across ... ”




That's the chord that hits me everytime I read an LNP Newscorp Inc article or have Andrew Bolt's hate thrust in front of me. What do you think Rumpole?


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> That's the chord that hits me everytime I read an LNP Newscorp Inc article or have Andrew Bolt's hate thrust in front of me. What do you think Rumpole?




There is plenty of fake news going around from both sides. The radio shock shocks are highly paid volunteers for the LNP and people listen to those who pander to their own opinions.

Most of the media is propaganda for one side or another.


----------



## overhang (6 April 2017)

noco said:


> “Paying someone to support a plan that they have never read is one of the most ridiculous tactics that I’ve come across ... ”




More to the point who accepts money to endorse something they haven't read?  I bet you drug smugglers would love this John Opie since clearly he can be bought cheaply without asking questions, now John if you could just carry this briefcase through customs.


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## sptrawler (6 April 2017)

noco said:


> *Everyday’ people paid to endorse South Australia energy plan*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*IF that's true*, it is just pure corruption and they should be charged.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2017)

sptrawler said:


> *IF that's true*, it is just pure corruption and they should be charged.




No , it's just seedy campaign tactics that have been used many times in the past by all sides.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/20...it-on-the-liberal-party-for-this-hilariously/


----------



## sptrawler (6 April 2017)

Well I was being a bit dramatic, but it seems to go down well here.

Take a look at these W.A headlines, seems to back up your judgement..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-06/wa-budget-worse-than-expected-labor-reveals/8421606

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-...-from-rising-debt-and-falling-revenue/8423208

The Barnett Government was continually screaming about the loss of revenue, everyone including McGowan poo paad him, well McGowan should get over it. 
Same as he told Barnett.


----------



## Tisme (7 April 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Well I was being a bit dramatic, but it seems to go down well here.
> 
> Take a look at these W.A headlines, seems to back up your judgement..
> 
> ...




Economic vandals leaving Labor another poisoned chalice to neutralise?


----------



## noco (8 April 2017)

If you thought Labor was not in bed with Greens, think again.......What a hypocrite we have in Anistazia Palazuzck and the state Labor Queensland Government......Was this tax payers funds or did it come out of The Union fed Labor Party funds?
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...t/news-story/2ff77b183a8b7bf1d24b3b1d9d9633d1


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## noco (1 May 2017)

Annastacia Palaszxzcuk is complaining about not getting a fair share of the Federal pie........She gets 15% of the GST and billions as described in the link below......Talk about greed 

She is also still battling with an $80 billion debt left by the Beattie/Bligh Government and a top heavy PS.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...x/news-story/27f9903e670edbd96f83084fbfe78a0b


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

noco said:


> Annastacia Palaszxzcuk is complaining about not getting a fair share of the Federal pie........She gets 15% of the GST and billions as described in the link below......Talk about greed
> 
> She is also still battling with an $80 billion debt left by the Beattie/Bligh Government and a top heavy PS.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...x/news-story/27f9903e670edbd96f83084fbfe78a0b





Any debt was left by Campbell Newman... you know the cando man who was going to fix everything.


----------



## noco (2 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Any debt was left by Campbell Newman... you know the cando man who was going to fix everything.




Here we go again.

The $80 billion debt was left by the Beattie/Bligh Labor Government and  Newman's effort  to sort it out during his 3 years was to go to the people and seek their approval to lease/sell assets to reduce the debt and the the amount of interest being wasted.

His plans were thawted by the Palaszczuk riff raff and the CFMEU with the preelection campaign promoting their propaganda that Labor would never sell the government assets which hit a nerve with the naive voters....The income from the assets does not even go close to covering the interest being paid out on the $80 billion.

What bloody hypocrites......Beattie sold off $18 billion of government assets during the minerals boom.

So don't talk to me about Newman being the candy man.

History is repeating itself over and over again whereby Labor run up a huge bad debt and then leave it to an incoming Liberal Government to sort out the mess.

What has Palaszxzuk done about the bad debt left by her socialist comrades?.......Absolutely nothing.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

Did Campbell Newman leave office with an enormous debt or not? *YES*/NO


----------



## noco (2 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Did Campbell Newman leave office with an enormous debt or not? *YES*/NO




I thought I explained it to you in a most intelligent and simple way but you don't seem to be able to  compere it.

Your answer is in my post #1463.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

noco said:


> I thought I explained it to you in a most intelligent and simple way but you don't seem to be able to  compere it.
> 
> Your answer is in my post #1463.




That's a politicians answer.


----------



## noco (2 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> That's a politicians answer.




*The $80 billion debt was left by the Beattie/Bligh Labor Government and Newman's effort to sort it out during his 3 years was to go to the people and seek their approval to lease/sell assets to reduce the debt and the the amount of interest being wasted.*

So he carried that debt until the election when he then went to the voters in all honestly  to get their approval......The rest is history.

Now you answer my question, what has Palaszxzcuk done in 2.5 years to reduce that debt?

I know she raided the super fund to make her bottom line budget look good.

Has she reduced it it YES or NO?


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

noco said:


> *The $80 billion debt was left by the Beattie/Bligh Labor Government and Newman's effort to sort it out during his 3 years was to go to the people and seek their approval to lease/sell assets to reduce the debt and the the amount of interest being wasted.*
> 
> So he carried that debt until the election when he then went to the voters in all honestly  to get their approval......The rest is history.
> 
> ...





As far as I know the current govt has reduced debt with income from ventures put in place by the Bligh Govt. Your understanding?


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2017)

Tisme, there is one thing about Labor, whether it is right or wrong they get it in, because the vocal minority support it.
The problem with that, good policy gets decimated, only union/media policy gets through.
So why not move to a media/union central government?
Russia and the Eastern block tried that, and everyone ended up living a life, wishing they lived in the west.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Tisme, there is one thing about Labor, whether it is right or wrong they get it in, because the vocal minority support it.
> The problem with that, good policy gets decimated, only union/media policy gets through.
> So why not move to a media/union central government?
> Russia and the Eastern block tried that, and everyone ended up living a life, wishing they lived in the west.




The latest incarnation in QLD has been rather refreshing in that it is media shy. Whereas Beatty, Bligh and Newman were all too keen to be high profile and reactionary; the Palaszczuk crew tend to lay low.

What really happened under Bligh was the big spend on infrastructure driven by a star chamber comprising 4 x big end of town companies that made a few quid out of the programs.  The infrastructure was massive compared to anything public in WA

I'm not sure to what extent the unions played in the governance, but monopoly Newscorp media have been relentlessly negative toward the Labor machine for so long even dyed in the wool Liberals are fed up with the drivel and deadhand editorials.


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2017)

All that could be true, but what we see on the media in W.A about Queensland post Newman, is minimal.
Actually you don't see any negative media, about about anything, other than Turnbull.
So we just have to hope they have got it right, and it will be all good, when the media get their desired people in office.lol
Thank God it won't affect me.
I'm not abreast of most situations over East, but can you honestly tell me that Victoria, NSW and S.A are on top of their game?


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2017)

sptrawler said:


> All that could be true, but what we see on the media in W.A about Queensland post Newman, is minimal.
> Actually you don't see any negative media, about about anything, other than Turnbull.
> So we just have to hope they have got it right, and it will be all good, when the media get their desired people in office.lol
> Thank God it won't affect me.
> I'm not abreast of most situations over East, but can you honestly tell me that Victoria, NSW and S.A are on top of their game?





Of course WA is very switched on when it comes to domestic politics...domestic anything really. Somehow the media has managed to stay engaged with the public in such a way that even partisan issues/views get through the screening processes of West Australian, Sunday Times, 6PR, etc.

You only have to turn to the GST debate to understand that the blue Riband Liberals in WA are still mixing it up with the ghost of Jack Forrest, who you can blame for the composition of the Federal Senate. It was the same Jack Baron of Bunbury,  who started the " them and us" routine between WA and the Rest when he became the first Sandgroper Premier. There were so few people in WA back in the day that Jack's probably related to most Wassies, including me, thus the imperial intensity of the political arguments in the burbs.

So when a prevaricator (King Lear Turnbull) comes along and seemingly treats WA like the end of the world it is understandable the population will get it's dander up and the West Oz would be first cab off the ranks to whip up a bit of anti Eastern States hysteria ....  it's in our blood.


----------



## noco (3 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> As far as I know the current govt has reduced debt with income from ventures put in place by the Bligh Govt. Your understanding?




Curtis Pit has raided the PS super funds  of $4billion to  make his bottom line look good.......He is fiddling the books......Debt is still rising.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-...itt-1-billion-transferred-ports-water/7028358


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2017)

noco said:


> Curtis Pit has raided the PS super funds  of $4billion to  make his bottom line look good.......He is fiddling the books......Debt is still rising.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-...itt-1-billion-transferred-ports-water/7028358




so the general govt debt is currently ~$37.7bn, about $10bn less than the trajectory Campbell Newman predicted, the GSP ratio has fallen  3% under Labor.

That's on par with WA with nearly twice the population

So what's going on apart from hate of all things working class?


----------



## noco (3 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> so the general govt debt is currently ~$37.7bn, about $10bn less than the trajectory Campbell Newman predicted, the GSP ratio has fallen  3% under Labor.
> 
> That's on par with WA with nearly twice the population
> 
> So what's going on apart from hate of all things working class?




That $37.7billion debt is the General Government Service debt which is expected to increase to $41 billion 2018/19.

Total debt is set to increase to $79.7 2018/19.

Stop trying to fool yourself Tisme.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2017)

noco said:


> That $37.7billion debt is the General Government Service debt which is expected to increase to $41 billion 2018/19.
> 
> Total debt is set to increase to $79.7 2018/19.
> 
> Stop trying to fool yourself Tisme.




So you are admitting the public debt is $37.7bn.. that's a start. 

I'm not sure where you are getting the $41bn figure, except maybe via the CourierMailLNP propaganda machine?


----------



## noco (3 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> So you are admitting the public debt is $37.7bn.. that's a start.
> 
> I'm not sure where you are getting the $41bn figure, except maybe via the CourierMailLNP propaganda machine?




You obviously don't know the difference between General Government Service debt and Total. debt.....You have got your buns in the wrong oven.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-...itt-1-billion-transferred-ports-water/7028358

Queensland's debt is still on track to hit almost $80 billion within four years.

*Key points:*

$850m debt transferred to Gladstone Ports, North Queensland Bulk Ports and SunWater
Combined with $150m dividends, state debt reduced by $1b
Electricity distributors Ergon and Energex to be merged by mid-2016
Generators CS Energy and Stanwell not to be merged amid anti-competition fears
Expanding Cabinet from 14 to 17 ministers costing $6m a year
Surpluses totalling over $1b each and every year out to June 2019
*Treasurer Curtis Pitt's mid-year economic statement on Tuesday showed the Government will cut total debt from $75.2 billion in 2014-15 to $73.9 billion this financial year.

However, total debt is still set to march towards a figure of $79.7 billion in 2018-19.

He said the economic conditions have become tougher since the budget, and as a consequence, revenue write-downs now total $1.5 billion over the forward estimates compared to budget time.

"We're not in a hurry to get back to AAA," Mr Pitt said.

"In fact, the Queensland Treasury suggested that wouldn't be prudent at this time.

"Of course we want to see it go down.

"The important point from our perspective is we are focused on the kind of debt that actually impacts directly on Queenslander taxpayers - and that is general government sector debt."

However, general government sector debt was also set to grow from $38 billion this financial year to almost $41 billion in 2018-19, according to official figures.*


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2017)

noco said:


> You obviously don't know the difference between General Government Service debt and Total. debt.....You have got your buns in the wrong oven.




Yeah but public debt is $37.7bn right?

You can't count corporate debt because it is paid by consumers, not taxes. Well you shouldn't, but the LNP will for political reasons until it is theirs and then the public debt is "good" debt and the remainder is corporate debt that needs to be sold off, therefore negating the primary argument.


----------



## noco (7 May 2017)

The Labor Party....The great pretenders and illustrators of hypocrisy.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s/news-story/722f55b6d31273c54fbcb08e0a1ff495

Bill Shorten’s feigned outrage at the Fair Work Commission’s decision on penalty rates has once again been exposed by deals struck by his own union when he was national secretary.






March of the barefaced hypocrites
TALK about bad timing.
couriermail.com.au


----------



## wayneL (8 May 2017)

Labor hoist by their own petard.... LMAO this is beautiful 

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...t/news-story/56e524cf813f7a98a25819a4550fbea4


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Labor hoist by their own petard.... LMAO this is beautiful
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...t/news-story/56e524cf813f7a98a25819a4550fbea4




And this guy wants to be Prime Minister.....He is an absolute joke and is not that far in front of Turnbull.


----------



## Tisme (8 May 2017)

noco said:


> And this guy wants to be Prime Minister.....He is an absolute joke and is not that far in front of Turnbull.




Making his own f$#kups so he can have a high profile apology I reckon.

He will be PM and whitey male will be moved down the social and occupational ladder to free up rungs for lesbians, gays, drovers dogs, etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 May 2017)

noco said:


> And this guy wants to be Prime Minister.....He is an absolute joke and is not that far in front of Turnbull.




Are you now complaining about White Australia ?

I thought that's the way you like it .


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you now complaining about White Australia ?
> 
> I thought that's the way you like it .




Oh my gawd, how in the hell did you associate that with white Australia?

Some times I wonder where you were born Rumpy.


----------



## drsmith (8 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Labor hoist by their own petard.... LMAO this is beautiful
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...t/news-story/56e524cf813f7a98a25819a4550fbea4



I note Anthony Albanese was quick to sink the boot in.


----------



## PZ99 (8 May 2017)

drsmith said:


> I note Anthony Albanese was quick to sink the boot in.



That's the biggest giveaway in this whole deal where this silly stunt was totally disorganised if someone as senior as Albo didn't even know about it. Not the way to advertise your methodology as an alternative Govt. Sam Dastyari hasn't been particularly bright either. 

Focus on wages lads... that's your political mileage.


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

drsmith said:


> I note Anthony Albanese was quick to sink the boot in.




No love lost there.


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

PZ99 said:


> That's the biggest giveaway in this whole deal where this silly stunt was totally disorganised if someone as senior as Albo didn't even know about it. Not the way to advertise your methodology as an alternative Govt. Sam Dastyari hasn't been particularly bright either.
> 
> Focus on wages lads... that's your political mileage.




And Labor tries to tell us they are united......We have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in the Labor Party.


----------



## Tisme (9 May 2017)

PZ99 said:


> That's the biggest giveaway in this whole deal where this silly stunt was totally disorganised if someone as senior as Albo didn't even know about it. Not the way to advertise your methodology as an alternative Govt. Sam Dastyari hasn't been particularly bright either.
> 
> Focus on wages lads... that's your political mileage.




If they really wanted to reflect QLD demography they would have about half the cast behind Bill Shorten weighing in at 105kg, 5'9, thick legs, bulbous butts,  box heads and probably Kiwi. LOL


----------



## PZ99 (9 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> If they really wanted to reflect QLD demography they would have about half the cast behind Bill Shorten weighing in at 105kg, 5'9, thick legs, bulbous butts,  box heads and probably Kiwi. LOL



 ... Barnacle Bills ?


----------



## noco (12 May 2017)

Barnacle Bill never pays for ant thing he promises.....When his lips moves the BS flows.

https://www.facebook.com/LiberalPar...13561467463/10155178576997464/?type=3&theater


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2017)

See useless Labor is even further up in the polls 53 to 47 ... that's a lot of useless voters ... all of us apparently.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> See useless Labor is even further up in the polls 53 to 47 ... that's a lot of useless voters ... all of us apparently.




Unsurprising when the budget gave a tax reduction to big business and those earning $170k+ and a tax increase in a couple of years to the rest of us.


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Unsurprising when the budget gave a tax reduction to big business and those earning $170k+ and a tax increase in a couple of years to the rest of us.



A strong country needs a strong economy and a strong economy needs a strong private sector and a strong private sector needs strong executives and strong executives need a strong disposable income and a strong disposable income needs poor people to be strong when suffering from strong state sponsored deprivation of the poor.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> A strong country needs a strong economy and a strong economy needs a strong private sector and a strong private sector needs strong executives and strong executives need a strong disposable income and a strong disposable income needs poor people to be strong when suffering from strong state sponsored deprivation of the poor.




I would say a strong private sector needs consumers with money to spend, and tax cuts would be better given to low and middle income earners who would recycle the dough into the economy.

I like your allegory though, it's much cleverer than mine.


----------



## noco (15 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Unsurprising when the budget gave a tax reduction to big business and those earning $170k+ and a tax increase in a couple of years to the rest of us.




But Rumpy, there is one thing that has me baffled.....The Labor Party has gained ground in the polls yet Shorten has lost ground in popularity against Turnbull who has gained ground.

It is hard to work out what makes people tick sometimes.


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> But Rumpy, there is one thing that has me baffled.....The Labor Party has gained ground in the polls yet Shorten has lost ground in popularity against Turnbull who has gained ground.
> 
> It is hard to work out what makes people tick sometimes.





Off topic this is "Useless  Labor" thread


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2017)

I think the title of this thread should be changed to "The far more popular Party than the Liberals". 

The Libs are on the nose with their give to the rich and take away from the rest elitist policies. No soft and squidgy talk by Turnbull and Morrison can disguise the fact that they are desperate and clutching at straws.

And I don't care if that's "off topic".


----------



## Tisme (20 May 2017)

I see two of the reasons Labor is more a vehicle for gender and lifestyle choices than its once core plank of social equity and workers rights are making their profiles loftier for some reason.

Watch these two as they work to shoehorn white man hater and champion of the weird 2% Tanya into top spot:

Jacqueline Maley
Julia Baird


----------



## dutchie (21 May 2017)

The boats will be back under Bill Shorten, no matter his denials.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/re...s/news-story/653b1d62ae2041f15d5ec01ba18c23fe


----------



## noco (21 May 2017)

Judy Kennedy echoes the same about Bill Shorten...You just cannot trust Bill Shorten.

*Judy Kennedy shared a link.*
7 hrs
MOST of us have seen it first hand; the family barbecue or out for dinner, and the two political topics that divide the group are boats and budgets, or to put it more specifically, how the government manages Australia’s immigration program and how they manage our money.

Other issues might come and go but as far as a political barometer is concerned, this double-headed test is still the best. If you’re prepared to risk a split in the friendship or even the family, give it a go. To be fair, Malcolm Turnbull’s recent Labor-lite budget might skew things a bit but as long as Peter Dutton’s in charge, the Coalition’s immigration policies won’t lurch to the left any time soon.

When it comes to immigration, you can’t trust Labor.

As he continues to lift in the polls, Bill Shorten’s going to start promising us he won’t restart the boats, but being soft on immigration is in Labor’s DNA. Go back to John Howard’s time and you’ll find that Labor opposed almost every sensible measure to curtail illegal arrivals. Kevin from Queensland got in and thought he could get away with dismantling the Coalition’s tough border protection policies to win friends in inner-city latte land but the people-smugglers had other ideas. Almost immediately their trade started up again and as I watched them from opposition, Labor was utterly powerless to stop it. The Rudd-Gillard-Rudd record of chaos must not be forgotten: 800 boats, 50,000 illegal arrivals, 17 new detention centres, 8000 children in detention and 1200 deaths at sea (that we know about).

“That was then, this is now,” Bill Shorten will say.

Don’t be fooled.

Some of you might look at Chris Bowen and see a man trying hard to be a credible shadow treasurer but I see the man whose record as immigration minister should disqualify him from any future office. Under Julia Gillard, 398 boats and 24,447 people arrived on Mr Bowen’s watch; the worst record of any immigration minister in Australian history. Hapless, reckless and completely inept; is it any wonder people are worried what he would do to the economy if this was his previous ministerial effort?

In recent days we’ve seen the example of six Iranians who came by boat under Labor, granted asylum to stay because they claimed their lives would be in danger if forced to return yet return they did, for a holiday. When Peter Dutton cancelled their visas and tried to deport them for lying about their so-called refugee status, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal overturned his decision and allowed them to stay. Sadly, this isn’t an isolated case with the AAT overturning 39 per cent of the minister’s decisions on visas and deportations over the past year. As a result of the chaos left by former ministers like Chris Bowen (and his successors, Brendan O’Connor and Tony Burke, both also on Shorten’s frontbench), the Coalition is spending tens of millions of (borrowed) dollars fighting ridiculous court cases like this despite being up to our eyeballs in debt.

Asylum seekers on Christmas Island in 2014. Since the Coalition formed government, boat arrivals have been stopped. (Pic: Supplied)
But it isn’t just the debt, it is the principle too.

We’re a generous nation and one of only 27 in the world that’s actually resettles refugees (yes that’s right over 160 other countries refuse) however it’s clear we’re being taken for a ride. Those really needing our help, waiting patiently in a camp often for a decade or more, are displaced by economic migrants with cash and a good story who lie their way through the system, until they’re caught by people like Dutton, and even then the system gives them a second chance. Sadly, there’s no second chance for the child in the camp, the persecuted Christian or the gay man thrown off a building by Islamic State.

On this issue, like so many, the hypocrisy of the Left is breathtaking. Australia cannot take all the world’s refugees but we do our bit and we do it better than almost any country in the world. But this tripe that anyone who wants to come here can just turn up and we should have to take them beggars belief. This mindset is one of the reasons Europe is such a basket-case. Because we grant refugees almost immediate access to Australia’s taxpayer-funded school system, Medicare and Centrelink, governments must regulate the quantum of our immigration intake so we can keep paying for the services that most of us (sadly) take for granted. In the end — like everything — its all got to be paid for or we won’t be able to afford it in the future.

Under Malcolm Turnbull, the Coalition’s economic policies may have slipped to the left, but while Peter Dutton remains the same won’t happen to its immigration policy. (Pic: Supplied)
To date, Labor’s immigration failures have cost the taxpayer just shy of $14 billion dollars ($13.7b to be exact) and there’s a legacy caseload of over 30,000 people that Mr Dutton’s still sorting through. While Labor says ‘elect us, it won’t happen again’, let’s take a look at the facts.

At last year’s election, over 40 Labor MPs and candidates were on the record at one time or another opposing the Coalition’s policies to stop the boats. Right now, Labor are blocking legislation designed to prevent an illegal maritime arrival sent to a regional processing centre from getting to Australia. Bill Shorten tells us he has the same border protection policies as the government, but his troops won’t vote for them in the parliament. Surely this just shows that while Mr Shorten leads Labor, it’s the far Left who are actually in charge?

The uncomfortable truth is that to have a fair immigration system we have to be tough. There’s no shortage of people around the world who want a better economic outcome and while we can all understand that; aspiration alone isn’t what defines a genuine refugee. A ‘well-founded fear of persecution’ is the test and those who lie, who holiday back in their old homeland, or rort the system, displace those in real need of a place.

Malcolm Turnbull never had his heart in this issue last time as Liberal leader (or indeed when in Abbott’s cabinet) but we should all be grateful Peter Dutton does. And while Bill Shorten might say the right thing now, we know his people have other ideas should they get elected. This issue is important. As someone who worked for the prime minister who stopped the boats last time, if the boats start up again, under any government, stopping them a third time will be nigh on impossible.






The boats will be back under Bill Shorten
MOST of us have seen it first hand; the family barbecue or out for dinner, and the two political topics that divide the group are boats and budgets, or to put it more specifically, how the government manages Australia’s immigration program and…
dailytelegraph.com.au


----------



## Tisme (21 May 2017)

noco said:


> Judy Kennedy echoes the same about Bill Shorten...You just cannot trust Bill Shorten.
> 
> *Judy Kennedy shared a link.*
> 7 hrs
> MOST of us have seen it first hand; the family barbecue or out for dinner, and the two political topics that divide the group are boats and budgets, or to put it more specifically, how the government manages Australia’s immigration program and how they manage our money.



Wrong straight out of the blocks. The bbq/kitchen table/pub confalbs are about the ineffective Govt and how many can't bring themselves to vote for Bill. 

The context has moved past illegals, asylum seekers, even the deficit. The majority voting public have given up all hope of anything at all. The majors and the minors are as Paul Keating said of someone else: "All tip, no iceburg"

It's only the gay and women's activists who seem to give a toss about discussing party policy.


----------



## noco (23 May 2017)

While Labor are in fighting in Queensland, jobs go begging......Palaszczuk could not run a chook raffle in a pub if you paid her.

The same thing is happening in Federal Labor, they are split down the middle on the medicare levee to fund the NDIS which was never funded by the Labor Party in the first place..

A united Party !!!!!    I don't think so......Then there is also Albo nibbling away at barnacle Bill on the side line.

A pending Labor implosion might just save the Liberal Party.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/35590430/no-royalty-holiday-for-adani-trad/#page1


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## dutchie (23 May 2017)

The boats will be back under Bill Shorten.
Being soft on immigration is in Labor’s DNA.


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## noco (23 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> The boats will be back under Bill Shorten.
> Being soft on immigration is in Labor’s DNA.




That is because he (Shorten) is dictated to by the Greens and the unions......He does not have half  a brain to think for himself.
Once again the Labor Party are split down the middle with some 40 Labor MPs wanting open borders again.
And Labor has the nerve to say they are united.


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2017)

Old Labor and the Worker (commo) newspaper:

28 May 1892 - LABOUR IN POLITICS. - Worker (Brisbane, Qld. : 1890 - 1955) 

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70860176


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## PZ99 (23 May 2017)

If Labor's DNA is being soft on immigration then I shudder to think what happens when they crack the whip... because last time I checked the ALP policies under the previous two prime ministers were even harsher than the Coalition policy - as well as ineffective and ultimately illegal, which is why they failed. Bill Shorten was a key driver in both policies.


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## noco (23 May 2017)

PZ99 said:


> If Labor's DNA is being soft on immigration then I shudder to think what happens when they crack the whip... because last time I checked the ALP policies under the previous two prime ministers were even harsher than the Coalition policy - as well as ineffective and ultimately illegal, which is why they failed. Bill Shorten was a key driver in both policies.




Don't believe a word of it.......Under a  Green/Labor socialist coalition, our borders will be open again.

Shorten says one thing then back flips on it.


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## PZ99 (23 May 2017)

noco said:


> Don't believe a word of it.......Under a  Green/Labor socialist coalition, our borders will be open again.
> 
> Shorten says one thing then back flips on it.



LOL! I don't believe any of them. 
That's the freedom I enjoy from not being tied to any party or ideology


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## Tisme (23 May 2017)

PZ99 said:


> LOL! I don't believe any of them.
> That's the freedom I enjoy from not being tied to any party or ideology




Vive la révolution.


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## noco (5 June 2017)

FACT CHECK.....You know the  one crew you generally run to?

Fact Check today has brought out the lies, propaganda and misleading articles on Labor's claim that the Liberals have cut $22 billion from the Gonski school funding.....Labor....What ever it rakes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/factchec...-the-government-cut-22bn-from-schools/8526768


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## Tisme (5 June 2017)

noco said:


> FACT CHECK.....You know the  one crew you generally run to?
> 
> Fact Check today has brought out the lies, propaganda and misleading articles on Labor's claim that the Liberals have cut $22 billion from the Gonski school funding.....Labor....What ever it rakes.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/factchec...-the-government-cut-22bn-from-schools/8526768





Unfortunately you can't use fact check at all, because you have denigrated it consistently as a Labor/Greens/Communist cog in their machines.

A double negative does not make a positive when arguing and idea.


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## noco (5 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Unfortunately you can't use fact check at all, because you have denigrated it consistently as a Labor/Greens/Communist cog in their machines.
> 
> A double negative does not make a positive when arguing and idea.




I know you cannot stand the truth Tisme but in this case FACT CHECK are right.


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## PZ99 (5 June 2017)

Fact check are usually accurate, obviously why Tony Abbott demanded it shut down


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## Tisme (5 June 2017)

noco said:


> I know you cannot stand the truth Tisme but in this case FACT CHECK are right.




On the contrary that is why you find me awkward because if you check back on all most posts they are , in fact , factual,unlike the fiction you would have me believe.


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## PZ99 (5 June 2017)

Let's have some fun inventing a connection between these two events 

_Sam Dastyari's Chinese donations: What are the accusations and is the criticism warranted? _
_5th Sep 2016 > http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-05/sam-dastyari-chinese-donations-furore-explained/7816588_

And today: _ASIO has warned the major parties about taking donations from two billionaires because its intelligence reveals worrying links to the Chinese Communist Party._
_http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-05/asio-warns-political-parties-over-foreign-donations/8590162_


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## Tisme (6 June 2017)

PZ99 said:


> Let's have some fun inventing a connection between these two events
> 
> _Sam Dastyari's Chinese donations: What are the accusations and is the criticism warranted? _
> _5th Sep 2016 > http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-05/sam-dastyari-chinese-donations-furore-explained/7816588_
> ...




Hats off to the ABC for once again setting the agenda for the govt. No sooner do they reveal Chinese payola and cronyism, than Malcolm orders an inquiry ....something that should already have been done.

Penny Wong has to be feeling a little uncomfortable at the moment.


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## SirRumpole (6 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Hats off to the ABC for once again setting the agenda for the govt. No sooner do they reveal Chinese payola and cronyism, than Malcolm orders an inquiry ....something that should already have been done.
> 
> Penny Wong has to be feeling a little uncomfortable at the moment.




Donations from non Australian citizens and non-voting institutions should be banned NOW.

Public funding is better than corruption, and our politicians of both sides reek of corruption.


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## Tisme (6 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Donations from non Australian citizens and non-voting institutions should be banned NOW.
> 
> Public funding is better than corruption, and our politicians of both sides reek of corruption.





They reek a wafer thin shell of perspicacity covering a withered nut of nation before self interest.


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## PZ99 (6 June 2017)

_"Labor Senator Sam Dastyari has also been thrown into the spotlight for reportedly trying to assist one of the businessmen in attempting to gain Australian citizenship."
_
_http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...s/news-story/09ac00bf4f9f0017747fe1ad07175ef1_


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## SirRumpole (6 June 2017)

PZ99 said:


> _"Labor Senator Sam Dastyari has also been thrown into the spotlight for reportedly trying to assist one of the businessmen in attempting to gain Australian citizenship."
> _
> _http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...s/news-story/09ac00bf4f9f0017747fe1ad07175ef1_




Of course there is nothing wrong with Andrew Robb arguing in Cabinet to lease the Darwin port to Landbridge, and then accepting a job with that company as soon as he left Parliament ?

http://www.theage.com.au/national/i...on-as-he-left-parliament-20170602-gwje3e.html


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## PZ99 (6 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course there is nothing wrong with Andrew Robb arguing in Cabinet to lease the Darwin port to Landbridge, and then accepting a job with that company as soon as he left Parliament ?
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/national/i...on-as-he-left-parliament-20170602-gwje3e.html



That's a good one. He looks a bit like Kevin Rudd. Maybe they couldn't tell the difference


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## SirRumpole (6 June 2017)

PZ99 said:


> That's a good one. He looks a bit like Kevin Rudd. Maybe they couldn't tell the difference




I wouldn't say Robb was ratf****d by the Chinese, he did pretty well out of them.


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## PZ99 (6 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I wouldn't say Robb was ratf******d by the Chinese, he did pretty well out of them.



Yeah, they gave him five stars instead of four. Or is that scars? LOL


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## Tisme (6 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course there is nothing wrong with Andrew Robb arguing in Cabinet to lease the Darwin port to Landbridge, and then accepting a job with that company as soon as he left Parliament ?
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/national/i...on-as-he-left-parliament-20170602-gwje3e.html





Bill Shorten's fault, it's always Bill Shorten's fault for not being a good Prime Minister.


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## PZ99 (14 June 2017)

@noco , here you go mate 

LABOR is reeling after a Chinese-born businessman selected to run as a Senate candidate resigned amid revelations the party bankrolled its 2016 federal election campaign with donations from gold dealers linked to a multimillion-dollar tax scam.

http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...y/news-story/af3daad4edb16d6dc34aac92664106ee


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## Tisme (14 June 2017)

PZ99 said:


> @noco , here you go mate
> 
> LABOR is reeling after a Chinese-born businessman selected to run as a Senate candidate resigned amid revelations the party bankrolled its 2016 federal election campaign with donations from gold dealers linked to a multimillion-dollar tax scam.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...y/news-story/af3daad4edb16d6dc34aac92664106ee




LOL. I doubt Labor would even flinch with that chestnut in the face of the LNP blue blood (governing) pollies selling off the farm in return for high paying positions in companies benefitting  from the sales.

When Labor get voted in next term, I can only hope they hold a Royal Commission (aka Witch hunt) into LNP conflicts of interests and reward for favours rendered........ extending the terms of reference to State  premiers and their cronies. They might like to take out the Greens in the process


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## sptrawler (14 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> When Labor get voted in next term, I can only hope they hold a Royal Commission (aka Witch hunt) into LNP conflicts of interests and reward for favours rendered........ extending the terms of reference to State  premiers and their cronies. They might like to take out the Greens in the process




Will it be limited to a time frame, that doesn't include W.A Labor Premiers and cabinet members going to jail. lol


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## Tisme (15 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Will it be limited to a time frame, that doesn't include W.A Labor Premiers and cabinet members going to jail. lol





Hang on a minute, a couple of my acquaintances were the Groper boss over there ... oh yeah its alright they've already been dealt with LOL And bonus QLD dealt with its legacy in the 90's, phew


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2017)

Well Labor are in with a huge majority in W.A, so anything they want they can get.

First cab off the rank, halve the public sector, not a murmur from the unions, very unusual.

They said, the only way the cost of electricity will not go up, is by voting Labor.
First thing they do is to double the service cost for electricity, not a murmur from the press or the unions.
Next thing was to hit the pensioners, it will save them $240m over four years, well done.

I bet they wish they hadn't paid out on Brendon Grylls idea, of hitting the mining companies a $ /volume charge.
Absolute dicks.IMO

They had better come up with an answer, they asked the question of Barnett, but wouldn't agree to anything.
Well now they have an absolute majority, lets see some action.


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## Tisme (26 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Well Labor are in with a huge majority in W.A, so anything they want they can get.
> 
> First cab off the rank, halve the public sector, not a murmur from the unions, very unusual.
> 
> ...




So what is the real situation with the public service? 

I seem to remember Barnett was already making wholesale cuts.

With the new boss the forecasts were:

there was going to be a devolution into conglomerate departments by amalgamating about 40 of them into about 25?

That about 100 fat cat department heads would get the flick from their contracts?

How many rank and file have lost their jobs?


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## Tisme (26 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> So what is the real situation with the public service?
> 
> I seem to remember Barnett was already making wholesale cuts.
> 
> ...




I take it the facts are having a hard time surfacing?


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## sptrawler (26 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> I take it the facts are having a hard time surfacing?



Haven't had time to look, busy with other half.


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## sptrawler (26 June 2017)

With the public service, the facts are, the Government wants to save $750 million in the public service sector.
https://thewest.com.au/politics/sta...slash-wa-public-sector-spending-ng-b88410999z
The Government has also increased the service cost for electricity.
Introduced cuts to the seniors card.
If Barnett had made suggestions like that, the unions and media, would have been all over him.

Don't get me wrong, radical cuts and new taxes, will be required.
Labor are the only ones who can introduce them, any other party tries and there is a mass uproar.
It doesn't make all the changes right, it just means the bullies are on their side.


----------



## Tisme (26 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> With the public service, the facts are, the Government wants to save $750 million in the public service sector.
> https://thewest.com.au/politics/sta...slash-wa-public-sector-spending-ng-b88410999z
> The Government has also increased the service cost for electricity.
> Introduced cuts to the seniors card.
> ...




Perhaps he will understand the lesson Dionysius taught Damocles about power and fear before he gets too carried away.


----------



## sptrawler (28 June 2017)

Well the W.A Labor Party have no sooner sat down, before they begin stuffing things up.
They are putting the cost of electricity up, to encourage competition against the Government owned business, to supposedly drive down prices.(It shouldn't be hard to drive down prices, if you put them up first).
The problem is, either it is a Government run service for the community, or it should be sold off to get fair value from it.
No Labor will strip its value, then get rid of it, really clever.

https://thewest.com.au/opinion/dani...-treasurer-ben-wyatt-and-unions-ng-b88519865z


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## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Well Bill has really gone after the working man this time.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...illion-year-shareholder-refund-policy/9541016
It will be interesting to see this unfold, workers who buy shares in the lower taxed spouses name, will be hit as well. From what I've read.


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

OK so the ALP is ending some vote buying welfare set up by a previous conservative Govt.

Don't expect much sympathy from me 

Why should you get a refund if you don't pay tax?


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> OK so the ALP is ending some vote buying welfare set up by a previous conservative Govt.
> 
> Don't expect much sympathy from me
> 
> Why should you get a refund if you don't pay tax?




Well the company pays the tax, the dividend is included as income and then the franking credit is taken off. If the franking credit can't be applied, then it boils down to double taxing. If that is how it is rolled out.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 March 2018)

The Libs have tripled the deficit and they say Labor can't control spending !

Does anyone believe their shite any more ?


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Well the company pays the tax, the dividend is included as income and then the franking credit is taken off. If the franking credit can't be applied, then it boils down to double taxing. If that is how it is rolled out.



That's not how it's going to be rolled out at all.

They are not abolishing the franking credit; just the cash refund that's given away to shareholders who don't pay tax in that year.


----------



## Toyota Lexcen (13 March 2018)

so what happens to franking credit for those people?


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Presumably they'll remain as a credit to offset future tax liabilities.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> That's not how it's going to be rolled out at all.
> 
> They are not abolishing the franking credit; just the cash refund that's given away to shareholders who don't pay tax in that year.




Which could be your non working wife, if she has shares in her name, and stops work to have a family? Or a person who has bought shares with after tax dollars while working and living off the dividends, while looking for another job. Which by the way things are going could be a lot of people.
The shares are purchased with after tax dollars, to provide an income when not working, to not be credited with the franking, just because you aren't working is discrimination.IMO

Why should franking be dependent on whether or not you are working?  Take it off for all or none, get a level playing field.


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Which could be your non working wife, if she has shares in her name, and stops work to have a family? Or a person who has bought shares with after tax dollars while working and living off the dividends, while looking for another job.



In other words... welfare. We are a welfare state that can't balance the budget.

Crikey, we have Family Tax benefits and paid parental leave. We used to have a baby bonus.
Paying people to have kids creates a sense of entitlement - wasn't that supposed to be over? 

Why should having kids be a further liability on the taxpayer?


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> In other words... welfare. We are a welfare state that can't balance the budget.
> 
> Crikey, we have Family Tax benefits and paid parental leave. We used to have a baby bonus.
> Paying people to have kids creates a sense of entitlement - wasn't that supposed to be over?
> ...




Because we are importing people in large numbers already, why not encourage our own to breed?


----------



## Toyota Lexcen (13 March 2018)

I doubt my parents work again at 76


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## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Toyota Lexcen said:


> I doubt my parents work again at 76



I gather their income is from divvies and they don't qualify for the pension?


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Because we are importing people in large numbers already, why not encourage our own to breed?



Because we don't have the money to pay for 18+ years of holding their hands for them.

Importing people to work and pay tax from day 1 sounds like a better plan for the budget.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Importing people to work and pay tax from day 1 sounds like a better plan for the budget.




When we have 5%+ unemployment and 8%+ under employment, that is just silly imo.


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Gotta be better than paying people to have kids? Speaking of unemployment...

http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...p/news-story/f0e155dd2b29aee8de62ab1f387c5f35

Australian businesses would get a permanent break on their taxes from a federal Labor government via a $20,000 instant asset write-off.

The Turnbull government first introduced the tax break for small and medium businesses in 2015/16 and extended it until June 30, 2018 in last May's budget.

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten announced on Tuesday his party would make the scheme permanent for all businesses to encourage new investment, costing the budget $3.4 billion over the forward estimates.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (13 March 2018)

You will find that the ALP legislation has so many holes in it that it will make little difference.

I continue to sell off on highs heading to cash. Bring on a recession. 

A recession is assured if the ALP get in with a minority government with the Greens. 

If they win Batman, North Queensland will go Blue. 

gg


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> OK so the ALP is ending some vote buying welfare set up by a previous conservative Govt.
> 
> Don't expect much sympathy from me
> 
> Why should you get a refund if you don't pay tax?





Because my threshold is not eligible for taxation, but the company was obliged to give my money to the govt?


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Because my threshold is not eligible for taxation, but the company was obliged to give my money to the govt?



They're not giving your money to the Govt.


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> OK so the ALP is ending some vote buying welfare set up by a previous conservative Govt.
> 
> Don't expect much sympathy from me
> 
> Why should you get a refund if you don't pay tax?





Because my threshold is not eligible for taxation, but the company was obliged to give my money to the govt?


PZ99 said:


> They're not giving your money to the Govt.




How so? Is it not sent by the companies to govt?


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## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> How so? Is it not sent by the companies to govt?



Not that I know of. 

The company pays the 30% to the ATO and you get the franking credits. No change there.


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Not that I know of.
> 
> The company pays the 30% to the ATO and you get the franking credits. No change there.





So you are splitting hairs between the ATO and Govt. I think you know what I was saying.


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> So you are splitting hairs between the ATO and Govt. I think you know what I was saying.



I don't know what you're talking about mate. Semantics? 

Where does the money collected by the ATO go?


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> I don't know what you're talking about mate. Semantics?
> 
> Where does the money collected by the ATO go?




If labor has its way into treasury and spent on programs.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> If labor has its way into treasury and spent on programs.



Or re opening detention centres, and glossy travel magazines for Indonesian refugee camps.


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## PZ99 (13 March 2018)

Or maybe not...

The mistake they made is not doing this in the Gillard era when they moved the tax free threshold to $18K or whatever it is. It was a cash handout that's blown out and needs to be rectified. The travel claim between two jobs is another one that should go.

Just outta curiosity. Did we see these protests when the Abbott Coalition increased tax on super for low income earners?


----------



## So_Cynical (13 March 2018)

The 5 billion this franking credit thing will raise is a lot of money, not sure how i feel about this as policy.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Or maybe not...
> 
> The mistake they made is not doing this in the Gillard era when they moved the tax free threshold to $18K or whatever it is. It was a cash handout that's blown out and needs to be rectified. The travel claim between two jobs is another one that should go.
> 
> Just outta curiosity. Did we see these protests when the Abbott Coalition increased tax on super for low income earners?




The problem is, we are moving the money around in pleb world, and band aiding a huge problem.
Why isn't either of the major parties, imposing a volumetric tax on resources?
Our welfare system is very expensive and some would say unaffordable, we keep trying to rob Peter, to pay Paul. 
Rather than putting in place a system of taxation that actually gives fair value for lost resources.
I've lived with my family in some pretty $hit places, and forgone a lot of luxuries, to save and become self funded.
It was obviously a stupid decision on my part.
I would have had a much happier home life, if I had just bought the aircon in NW W.A, rather than do without to keep the electricity bill down.
But hey you never stop learning in life, Bill hasn't mentioned anything about Julia's tax free pension at 50years old, has he? Or about his tax free indexed unfunded pension, that becomes due whenever he quits?
No you won't hear anything about that, from either side of the floor.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

So_Cynical said:


> The 5 billion this franking credit thing will raise is a lot of money, not sure how i feel about this as policy.



It will depend on how much you rely on dividends, to support your pension.lol

Which comes back to an age related thing, the young will think it's great, until they become old.
One thing for sure, it is another nail in the supperannuation coffin.IMO


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You will find that the ALP legislation has so many holes in it that it will make little difference.
> 
> I continue to sell off on highs heading to cash. Bring on a recession.
> 
> ...




IF Labor get in, I think you are right on the money GG. I will be lightening on opportunity.


----------



## Humid (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> IF Labor get in, I think you are right on the money GG. I will be lightening on opportunity.



Why would Labor get in?
Think about that.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Humid said:


> Why would Labor get in?
> Think about that.



Because firstly, the Libs have been an absolute limp Government under Turnbull.
Secondly, most people on the East Coast are financially stressed, by the constant media barrage with positive affirmation of their position.
Thirdly, the only ones they can take their frustration out on, is the current Government.


----------



## Humid (13 March 2018)

Soun


sptrawler said:


> Because firstly, the Libs have been an absolute limp Government under Turnbull.
> Secondly, most people on the East Coast are financially stressed, by the constant media barrage with positive affirmation of their position.
> Thirdly, the only ones they can take their frustration out on, is the current Government.




Sounds like every election in the last 100 years


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Humid said:


> Soun
> 
> 
> Sounds like every election in the last 100 years




Jeez I wish noco, could answer that post. I wonder if anyone has heard from him?

He was convinced the Labor party are full of communists, we all took it lightly, but as time goes on even the die hard's must wonder.

I really don't think he was far from the mark, the political drive from labor to take anything from anyone who has built something up, is amazing.
It is only surpassed, by their reluctance to give up any of their entitlements, which does reek of communism.


----------



## Humid (14 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez I wish noco, could answer that post. I wonder if anyone has heard from him?
> 
> He was convinced the Labor party are full of communists, we all took it lightly, but as time goes on even the die hard's must wonder.
> 
> ...




They could abolish penalty rates and give tax breaks to the big end of town that would fix things


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2018)

Humid said:


> They could abolish penalty rates and give tax breaks to the big end of town that would fix things




Christ I've been retired for six years, penalty rates were abolished years ago in industry, they went to annualised salary. With exemptions for overtime.
Do you work in a small business?


----------



## Wysiwyg (14 March 2018)

Humid said:


> They could abolish penalty rates and give tax breaks to the big end of town that would fix things



Sarcasm is good.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2018)

I can't wait untill the dumb reporters, wake up to the fact it affects them, as they buy shares in their non working wife's name.  what a hoot.
It is like time lapse photography. lol


----------



## Humid (14 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Christ I've been retired for six years, penalty rates were abolished years ago in industry, they went to annualised salary. With exemptions for overtime.
> Do you work in a small business?




Casuals on an annualised salary
Sounds good 
Where do I sign up


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2018)

Casual is probably a real problem, is there any chance of going bush, and getting a permanent job?


----------



## Tisme (14 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez I wish noco, could answer that post. I wonder if anyone has heard from him?




I had a couple of correspondences when he was in hospital and later in home. He needed less anxiety and more of a relaxation lifestyle with his medical condition.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> I had a couple of correspondences when he was in hospital and later in home. He needed less anxiety and more of a relaxation lifestyle with his medical condition.




If he's reading this, I wish him well.


----------



## PZ99 (14 March 2018)

I'll second that


----------



## drsmith (14 March 2018)

As a corporate tax base integrity measure, I agree with the principle of Labor's policy not to refund franking credits where income tax is not otherwise paid. In that context, the proceeds should perhaps be used to reduce the corporate tax rate.

I maintain the view that tax base integrity measures such as this should be implemented as part of a broader package of tax reform. The worry, as always in isolation is that it runs the risk of overall being a tax increase in part or in full and/or a bribe for tax cuts on a political basis rather than broader tax reform.

Politically, Labor have also been too crude with this as a blanket policy. Retaining an imputation credit refund upper limit for individual shareholders in conjunction with an exemption for existing investments would protect existing low income earners from the changes.

https://thewest.com.au/opinion/fran...elp-battlers-and-the-better-off-ng-b88772633z

Perhaps Labor will deal with this in other ways (increasing the age pension ??) but that likely greater erodes the revenue gain and smells of policy on the run when not announced in conjunction with the main policy measure.

Best wishes to Noco and I hope he's well again soon.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2018)

All this angst, rather than charge mining companies a $/volume tax, they would rather scrounge around robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Sad really.IMO
The labor and Liberal Parties, would rather screw over their own families, than tax the companies that are removing our non renewable resources.
It makes one wonder, where their loyalties lie and who sets their moral compass.IMO
I'm just one vote, but I find it really sad, that I can't decide who is the worse of two evils.
Australia really needs a another Statesman, who has a vision, not a personal survival plan.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The labor and Liberal Parties, would rather screw over their own families, than tax the companies that are removing our non renewable resources.




You may recall that Labor tried a resources tax and you may recall what happened.


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> You may recall that Labor tried a resources tax and you may recall what happened.



Yeah - it rooned us


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2018)

Here is a typical Labor quote.LOL
There is a call, to put a standard $5 postal cost on internet low value items, because of the added pressure on resources.
Here is the article:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...at-5-parcel-tax-proposal-20180322-p4z5o4.html

_Asked about the levy on Thursday, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said the budget was only weeks away.

"So were not going to comment on the budget, I’ll just leave it at that," he said.

Shadow Treasurer Chris Bowen said the levy proposal "was another new tax from the supposed ‘low tax’ Turnbull government," but Labor has refused to rule out implementing the measure if it wins the next election._

I'm a bit disappointed with Bowen, I thought he was the future of the Labor Party, obviously silly Billy has painted him into a corner.
Somewhat similar to the Turnbull, Morrison scenario.
Put the obvious opposition into a 'sleeper' hold. lol


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> You may recall that Labor tried a resources tax and you may recall what happened.




Yes, and as with most things labor does, they stuffed it up completely.

Rather than just put a tax on volume, they tried to put a tax on excess profits, which the the companies never pay anyway.
Because they find some clause, or start an offshore company, that buys it from them causing a loss, or write off  capital investment against it.
It always sounds great from Labor, and is great cattle fodder for the masses, it's a shame the masses don't think it through.
But that is democracy and a failing of demographics.
They knew it was impotent and would be easily avoided, as was proven when the resources boom ended, if they were serious they would have placed a tax on a volume basis.
But as we see now, it is a great card to throw on the table.lol


----------



## moXJO (23 March 2018)

Labor wants to up the refugee intake. At least we know where their new taxes are going.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Labor wants to up the refugee intake. At least we know where their new taxes are going.




But you wouldn't complain if it they were white South African farmers ?


----------



## Humid (23 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, and as with most things labor does, they stuffed it up completely.
> 
> Rather than just put a tax on volume, they tried to put a tax on excess profits, which the the companies never pay anyway.
> Because they find some clause, or start an offshore company, that buys it from them causing a loss, or write off  capital investment against it.
> ...




http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/g...in-the-gold-royalty-rate-20171010-gyxqni.html

Let’s cut the company tax rate instead.

After the furore the profit tax caused I’ll get you to explain to the class how they were going to get volume tax over the line


----------



## moXJO (23 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> But you wouldn't complain if it they were white South African farmers ?



Ohhh snap.


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2018)

Humid said:


> http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/g...in-the-gold-royalty-rate-20171010-gyxqni.html
> 
> Let’s cut the company tax rate instead.
> 
> After the furore the profit tax caused I’ll get you to explain to the class how they were going to get volume tax over the line




Agreed, but it is the only sensible way of taxing a finite resource, sooner or later it will have to be addressed. IMO


----------



## Tisme (30 April 2018)

Australian:



> economic correspondent
> Sydney
> @Adam_Creighton
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2018)

I see the ACTU, is going to push Bill Shorten to re introduce death duties.
Hope the SMH agrees and pushes as well.


----------



## PZ99 (21 July 2018)

Daft idea. You would hope Labor aren't so stupid to bring that tax back.

They didn't do it after the Henry review - so I can't see it happening now.


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2018)

Same with a land tax.

We already have council rates, don't need to be slugged again.


----------



## noirua (21 July 2018)

This is how it works in the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/feb/04/inheritance-tax-how-much-how-pay-reduce

Mind you, if you are dead it no longer matters to the person so why not charge death duties to those who are being gifted these sums and assets anyway. Part of the money could go to advance communities in the Outback.

If you have property or land assets in Spain you need a will drawn up in Spain or you get landed with heavy death duties. This probably applies in many other countries as well.
http://www.idealspain.com/Pages/finances/wills.htm

A few countries confiscate property assets if no will is drawn up in that country.

Canada operates capitals gains and recapture rules.


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Daft idea. You would hope Labor aren't so stupid to bring that tax back.
> 
> They didn't do it after the Henry review - so I can't see it happening now.



I think it is a foregone conclusion, they want to take money from the self funded pensioners, why would they want them to pass what is left to the kids. Lol
I think it is great, everyone gets what they deserve.
There is obviously too much wealth, washing around in the working class, Labor will sort that out. lol


----------



## PZ99 (22 July 2018)

Kevin Rudd is responsible for this. 10 years ago he sent out $900 cheques to dead people and now it's time for the snuffed invoice to go with it.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Kevin Rudd is responsible for this. 10 years ago he sent out $900 cheques to dead people and now it's time for the snuffed invoice to go with it.




Actually if you think about it the death duties makes sense, there is no point in stripping the money from retirees who saved, that's what you want people to do.
It makes more sense to take some of what is left over, so the kids have to work to make their own wealth, that is what is called incentive.


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## PZ99 (24 July 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Actually if you think about it the death duties makes sense, there is no point in stripping the money from retirees who saved, that's what you want people to do.
> It makes more sense to take some of what is left over, so the kids have to work to make their own wealth, that is what is called incentive.



Interesting viewpoint considering the title of the thread it's being posted in 

For me I hope this comes with an opt-out option as well. I would rather paying tax to be the second last thing I ever do rather than the last.


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Interesting viewpoint considering the title of the thread it's being posted in
> .




If the suggestion of bringing back death duties, was suggested in relation to the Libs, it would have been posted in their thread.
But on a serious note, the tax base does need realigning with the reality of a changing World, income tax receipts will continue to fall, petrol excise will fall and several other taxes, as technology improves. Therefore the tax base will require changing
Death duties are a fair way of spreading the tax base, the people who build wealth through their life, get to use it and aren't a burden on the welfare system.
Then when they go to the great beyond, the Government takes a slice, seems better than taking their wealth off them when they should be enjoying it. They earned it/saved it when it is all said and done.


----------



## bellenuit (24 July 2018)

Won't the wealthy just move all their assets in to Family Trusts or other such structure, leaving those with just moderate assets the main source of that tax.


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## SirRumpole (24 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Won't the wealthy just move all their assets in to Family Trusts or other such structure, leaving those with just moderate assets the main source of that tax.




I think Labor also raised the prospect of "reforming" family trusts.

I don't know if they have dropped it or not.

https://www.afr.com/news/labor-to-r...y-trust-distributions-at-30pc-20170729-gxlk7g


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## sptrawler (24 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Won't the wealthy just move all their assets in to Family Trusts or other such structure, leaving those with just moderate assets the main source of that tax.



No they will get hold of Packer's money, from his 300 or 400 negative geared rentals. lol


----------



## Junior (24 July 2018)

* 'Reform' family trusts (presumably make it hard/impossible to use individuals with low tax rates as beneficiaries)
* No company tax cuts
* Reduce CGT Discount
* Income tax cuts only for those on less than around $80k income.  Retain 'budget repair levy'.  No indexation or increase in any of the tax thresholds, except for those on low income.
* Removal of negative gearing
* No franking credit refunds (except those on Age Pension)

Add up all of the above policies......MASSIVE increase in the tax burden for any Australian who is not on welfare or a low income earner.  This will smash the domestic economy at a time where it is already fragile....banks are already hiking rates out of cycle and the property boom has peaked.  NOT the time to hit business owners and those Australians who pay the lion's share of taxes and provide jobs, with additional taxes.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2018)

Junior said:


> Add up all of the above policies......MASSIVE increase in the tax burden for any Australian who is not on welfare or a low income earner.




If you want to raise revenue you have to look where the money is, not where isn't.

People who haven't seen wage rises for years while company profits and executive salaries are soaring are rightly asking when are they going to get some relief.


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If you want to raise revenue you have to look where the money is, not where isn't.
> 
> People who haven't seen wage rises for years while company profits and executive salaries are soaring are rightly asking when are they going to get some relief.




The problem is, all Labor are suggesting is moving the chairs around, it isn't addressing the long term problem with our tax system.
Someone really needs to have a honest look at the Henry report, and all the other reports.
The welfare system is getting more and more expensive, and the tax base getting smaller and smaller, it will end up in tears by constantly applying band aids. 
All that will happen, is everyone will end up on the public purse, then how do you pay for it?


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Someone really needs to have a honest look at the Henry report, and all the other reports.




I absolutely agree with that, and Labor is to blame for letting it gather dust, although the Libs could obviously have taken it on board as well.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The welfare system is getting more and more expensive, and the tax base getting smaller and smaller, it will end up in tears by constantly applying band aids.




The tax base is getting smaller because of schemes like neg gearing and super tax discounts which favour the highly paid. Get rid of those schemes and you could reduce marginal tax rates.


----------



## Junior (24 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If you want to raise revenue you have to look where the money is, not where isn't.
> 
> People who haven't seen wage rises for years while company profits and executive salaries are soaring are rightly asking when are they going to get some relief.




I hear what you're saying, but a couple of points:

Tax revenue is booming due to massive population growth, growing company profits and bracket creep.....I really don't think the Govn't is short of revenue.  There should be enough in the pot to provide relief across all income levels over time.
The top 10% are already shouldering a significant burden in terms of tax.  If you look at average tax rates we are right up there in comparison with OECD average.  No doubt most aussies are OK with this and it's the way the system works, but any attempt to load the top 10% with a bigger and bigger burden will have a number of negative consequences and inevitably will backfire IMO.  This can result in reducted ability to generate employment and more incentive to hide income/profits or relocate operations to a jurisdiction with low tax rates.
Big tax hikes would potentially be OK if you could trust Labor to use the surplus to smash down Govn't debt, but we all know the deficit won't be going anywhere, as the temptation will be there to buy votes and will find ways to spend any additional revenue raised.
Big tax hikes will only result in Big Government, more inefficiency, overpaid public servants and a bloated welfare system.


----------



## Junior (24 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The tax base is getting smaller because of schemes like neg gearing and super tax discounts which favour the highly paid. Get rid of those schemes and you could reduce marginal tax rates.




I agree on negative gearing and this should be wound back OVER TIME with grandfathering for existing arrangements....property prices are already looking shaky and trying to kill Neg Gearing too suddenly could accentuate price falls.

Super tax discounts have already been unwound substantially.  Need to give self-funded retirees a break and a chance to digest the changes already in place.


----------



## HelloU (24 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The tax base is getting smaller because of schemes like neg gearing and super tax discounts which favour the highly paid. Get rid of those schemes and you could reduce marginal tax rates.



the irony here is that if you gave massive cuts to marginal rates then all those offset mechanisms become way less attractive to do (as in you might as well take the taxed money rather than take an actual loss so you can claim a tax deduction).........


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The tax base is getting smaller because of schemes like neg gearing and super tax discounts which favour the highly paid. Get rid of those schemes and you could reduce marginal tax rates.




The problem with those two examples, are they both only affect middle income earners.

High income earners aren't into negative gearing and renting properties, or overly exposed to superannuation. They have McMansions overlooking the river, and receive bonus shares as part of their salary package.

IMO, this is Labors real problem, the ones they are going to hit, are their voter base.

Obviously the ACTU has woken up to this, and are going to push for death duties, rather than hitting tradies, construction workers and most other middle income earners. 
Who negative gear, buy shares in their wife's name and hope their super will give them a good retirement. 

I think Silly Billy has shot himself in the foot, big time, talk about being out of touch with your voter base. 
This is why his leadership has gone all wobbly, the CFMEU are worried, they will be hit.


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2018)

This highlights Billy's problem, it is an extract from an article on negative gearing, by pay scales.

_The data also allows us to break down negative gearers by income tax brackets.

In 2014-15, 40.1% of individuals earned less than $37,000, they accounted for 24% of all people negative gearing, but only 19% of the total amount of taxable income loss.

*By contrast, those earning between $80,000 and $180,000 accounted for 19% of individuals but 32% of negative gearers, and 34% of the amount of rental loss*.

But the big disparity is for those earning over $180,000. *Only 3.4% of individuals earned that much but they accounted for 8% of all negative gearers *and 15% of the total rental loss amount:_


The high income earners, heavy into negative gearing, apparently are surgeons and anaesthetists.
It appears that the actual percentage of people negative gearing, flattens off, after $180,000. 
I can understand that, if you had tons of money, it is easier to have shares than tenants. Then just keep upsizing the McMansion and the view.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...t-negative-gearing-benefits-the-rich-the-most
_
_


----------



## PZ99 (24 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The tax base is getting smaller because of schemes like neg gearing and super tax discounts which favour the highly paid. Get rid of those schemes and you could reduce marginal tax rates.



Yep, agreed. It's true it affects middle income earners. And that's because schemes like neg gearing cause the highly paid to become middle income earners in the first place. That's why they do it. But I think it should be abolished regardless of who it affects because it merely adds to our welfare state bill and that's how Labor should be running it. We simply can't afford to pay for it.


----------



## HelloU (24 July 2018)

Question: If peeps want to abolish interest deductions on the income generating borrowings of individuals, then do you also disallow the interest deductions on the borrowings that a company/business does?


----------



## PZ99 (24 July 2018)

HelloU said:


> Question: If peeps want to abolish interest deductions on the income generating borrowings of individuals, then do you also disallow the interest deductions on the borrowings that a company/business does?



Not me. I have no problem paying tax to support employment.


----------



## HelloU (24 July 2018)

@PZ99
not sure if you mean that interest on company borrowings should not be allowed as a business expense.......my point is that neg gear for an individual is, to me, the same as deductable business interest........


----------



## PZ99 (24 July 2018)

HelloU said:


> @PZ99
> not sure if you mean that interest on company borrowings should not be allowed as a business expense.......my point is that neg gear for an individual is, to me, the same as deductable business interest........



The difference for me is I see a return from my taxes sponsoring business interest deductions.

I see no benefit from my taxes supporting a bloated housing market for individuals.


----------



## HelloU (24 July 2018)

ok - I think I am reading that correctly as happy for a trust/company/business to get a tax deduction, but not an individual (for interest on borrowings)

I think if a company/business/trust is able to hold income producing real estate and claim a tax deduction on interest payments then I see it as fair that an individual can hold income producing real estate and claim a tax deduction on interest payments as well.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2018)

> I see it as fair that an individual can hold income producing real estate and claim a tax deduction on interest payments as well.




It would be fair if the deductions were only against the income from that asset. 

It's not the other taxpayers job to subsidise loss making investments.


----------



## PZ99 (24 July 2018)

A refresher on the Labor policy when it comes to business. I'm pretty much on board with this.

https://www.afr.com/news/politics/l...licy-will-hurt-small-business-20160307-gncjhh

_(Open with a private/incognito window  )_


----------



## HelloU (24 July 2018)

thnx, read it.
My immediate reaction is that I have a wish to have a tax system that is simpler (not with more if, then, but, else options to wriggle around in). I tend to think what is good for the goose is good for the gander....and so if a certain deduction is available for set of taxpayers it should be offered on equal terms to all sets of taxpayers.........(that is how you get away from legal crap like trusts and avoidance schemes and similar)......
anyway........


----------



## HelloU (24 July 2018)

@PZ99
btw, I do accept the underlying premise that we need to tax the behaviour we want to reduce and subsidise the behaviour we want to encourage..........


----------



## PZ99 (24 July 2018)

HelloU said:


> @PZ99
> btw, I do accept the underlying premise that we need to tax the behaviour we want to reduce and subsidise the behaviour we want to encourage..........



Completely agree. 

Maybe that's the impetus of the death impuesto. Prophets say death is bad for profits. lol


----------



## Junior (25 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> It would be fair if the deductions were only against the income from that asset.
> 
> It's not the other taxpayers job to subsidise loss making investments.




Agreed.  Abolishing negative gearing doesn't mean disallowing a tax deduction for interest expenses.  It means allowing property expenses and interest to be offset against rental income only, not against salary/employment income.

This would mean it is on par with business expenses.  As business expenses are generally offset against business income.


----------



## Junior (25 July 2018)

Another thought around negative gearing....as interest rates rise, the cost of neg. gearing to the taxpayer could soar even further.  I say quarantine the arrangement for existing properties and disallow the practice for new investments.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 July 2018)

Junior said:


> I say quarantine the arrangement for existing properties and disallow the practice for new investments.




I believe that is what the Labor Party is proposing to do.


----------



## Junior (25 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I believe that is what the Labor Party is proposing to do.




The proposal on its own and phased in over time would be OK.  My concern is around the timing of this change coinciding with rising rates and tight lending, and combined with their other policy proposals which will result in a huge increase in tax revenue and bigger Government.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 July 2018)

Junior said:


> The proposal on its own and phased in over time would be OK.  My concern is around the timing of this change coinciding with rising rates and tight lending, and combined with their other policy proposals which will result in a huge increase in tax revenue and bigger Government.




Rising rates ?

When was the last time that happened ?

Not giving a tax reduction to companies is not a "huge increase in tax revenue", it's situation normal for them. 

MyHealth as introduced by the Libs is bigger government, and more data on you that can be sold off to companies.


----------



## Junior (25 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Rising rates ?
> 
> When was the last time that happened ?
> 
> ...




Many banks recently increased rates (or have proposed increases) across a range of home loans, out of cycle.  Forecasts are for higher rates ahead due to increased cost of funding.  RBA's next move, albeit a long way off, is likely to be higher.

Re company tax, fair enough it's not an increase, but given how increasingly noncompetitive our company tax rates are in a global sense, we need to look at ways to reduce the rate.  Small businesses will be much worse off under Labor based on policies proposed at this stage.

I'm not defending the Libs or MyHealth.  Just talking about Labor's proposed policies around the tax system, which would lead to a much bigger government in terms of the Government's share of the economy (% of total GDP and employment).


----------



## sptrawler (25 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Rising rates ?
> 
> When was the last time that happened ?




The U.S reserve has stated they are going to push rates up, they really have to, to start and make the system work again. 
When that happens the $U.S will go up, which in turn will have a downward pressure on our $. That will increase the cost of funding for our banks, as they source most of their funding overseas, therefore they will have to pay more for it and increase returns on deposits to attract more Australian funds.
Well that's is my thoughts on it, someone correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## HelloU (25 July 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> Maybe that's the impetus of the death impuesto. Prophets say death is bad for profits. lol



yes.........I see the point being made there from my supposition.........in a world where we have injecting rooms but still send peeps to jail for possession i guess that is worth a try. lol.
see ya


----------



## HelloU (25 July 2018)

Junior said:


> Agreed.  Abolishing negative gearing doesn't mean disallowing a tax deduction for interest expenses.  It means allowing property expenses and interest to be offset against rental income only, not against salary/employment income.
> 
> This would mean it is on par with business expenses.  As business expenses are generally offset against business income.



hi.......to me it is about lumping receivables together. For many years the taxation system has been slowly adjusting to allow individual taxpayers to lump receivables together in the same way that business does.

(on a deeper level, if a receivable was never in contract then non delivery of same is not a cost - no matter how much someone wanted to get it)


----------



## sptrawler (25 July 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is, all Labor are suggesting is moving the chairs around, it isn't addressing the long term problem with our tax system.
> Someone really needs to have a honest look at the Henry report, and all the other reports.
> The welfare system is getting more and more expensive, and the tax base getting smaller and smaller, it will end up in tears by constantly applying band aids.
> All that will happen, is everyone will end up on the public purse, then how do you pay for it?




At least some reporters are aware of the issue.

https://thewest.com.au/opinion/shan...when-the-the-tax-river-runs-dry-ng-b88901750z


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2018)

This suggestion on negative gearing changes, makes a lot more sense than Labors idea. But as usual Labor want to take a sledge hammer to a walnut.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/report-reveals-new-negative-gearing-proposal/9519586


----------



## Tisme (29 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> This suggestion on negative gearing changes, makes a lot more sense than Labors idea. But as usual Labor want to take a sledge hammer to a walnut.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-07/report-reveals-new-negative-gearing-proposal/9519586





Can never under estimate the electorates suspicion that tax changes will always favour an elite and dog the average person. Grumbling about tax is deep rooted complaining post of citizens, take it away and it will create an unsettling conspiracy vacuum.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Can never under estimate the electorates suspicion that tax changes will always favour an elite and dog the average person. Grumbling about tax is deep rooted complaining post of citizens, take it away and it will create an unsettling conspiracy vacuum.



Investment tax deductions, to a degree, will always favour the rich they have more money to invest.
The flip side is to not encourage investment, then let the populace experience real poverty, someone has to supply housing for the needy. Sadly the Governments don't seem too interested.


----------



## dutchie (30 August 2018)

Yet another Labor lie debunked.

Productivity Commission squashes Labor's inequality myths

Productivity Commission - "over nearly three decades, inequality has risen slightly in Australia"
"Indeed the commission's report is explicit about the fact, saying that, "sustained growth has delivered significantly improved living standards for the average Australians in every income decile". That statement is critical: economic growth has made everyone in Australia in every income group better off. What this means is that quite aside from virtually no increase in headline inequality, insofar as there has been a slight rise, it is in the context of a society where everyone is much  wealthier than 30 years ago. The other important insight that the commission makes is that there are periodic jumps in income for different income groups at different time. So whereas the mining boom of the 2000s was better for higher income groups, the post-global financial crisis period – even taking into account slow wages growth – has been relative better for people earning lower wages."


https://www.afr.com/opinion/editori...ashes-labors-inequality-myths-20180829-h14ofn

Shorten and Sally McManus are liars.


----------



## sptrawler (25 October 2018)

Not much being reported in the SMH or the AGE about Labors proposed changes, that they are taking to the election?


----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2019)

At last we are starting to get some news of the social platform, that labor is taking to the election, at least they are drawing lines in the sand. No one can say they haven't been open and honest, yet.

https://thewest.com.au/politics/fed...less-welfare-card-on-the-table-ng-b881082060z


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2019)

One thing I am a bit disappointed about, is the way Bowen is having to put forward all the bad news, i think he is setting himself up to be the Tony Abbott of the Labor Party.
Which IMO is a bit disappointing, he has a lot of potential, but will end up carrying all the baggage.
If Labor bring about a recession, Bowen will end up Bill's Bunny. IMO
I think I read the other day, that Bill backs Bowen's call, sounds like someone distancing themselves to me. lol


----------



## dutchie (4 February 2019)

I would fall asleep too if I had to listen to boring Bill

*'Are we sure he didn't just fall asleep?' Cameraman filming ABC interview with Bill Shorten faints on air*

Hope the camera man is OK


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2019)

Well Labor are showing, how little they understand about the banking system, in Australia.

https://thewest.com.au/business/mar...s-surge-before-reports-release-ng-b881097681z

They obviously don't read ASF, we have all said there is very little they can do to the banks, other than tighten regulation.
Wait untill they bring in their changes, their heads will spin.IMO


----------



## Humid (7 February 2019)

The Libs understood the banking sector that well they didn’t want a royal commission 
Decided to go after unions instead


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2019)

Humid said:


> The Libs understood the banking sector that well they didn’t want a royal commission
> Decided to go after unions instead



In reality, the Royal Commission didn't find anything with the Banking, that the ACCC and APRA didn't already know. It just highlighted how inept they were.
The Royal Commission had a much greater effect, in highlighting deficiencies in  the superannuation system.


----------



## Humid (7 February 2019)

sptrawler said:


> In reality, the Royal Commission didn't find anything with the Banking, that the ACCC and APRA didn't already know. It just highlighted how inept they were.
> The Royal Commission had a much greater effect, in highlighting deficiencies in  the superannuation system.




Shades of Sir Humphrey.....
That’s what’s happens when you set the terms of reference 
A year shorter than the union RC pretty much sums up their priorities


----------



## PZ99 (18 February 2019)

Here you go @dutchie 

https://www.news.com.au/national/fe...w/news-story/2fd41d98eb9d308e29254cdbbc243f6f

_For those who have been counting their chickens, the boat people might just save your divvies._


----------



## dutchie (18 February 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Here you go @dutchie
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/national/fe...w/news-story/2fd41d98eb9d308e29254cdbbc243f6f
> 
> _For those who have been counting their chickens, the boat people might just save your divvies._




Yippeee ??????


----------



## Humid (18 February 2019)

dutchie said:


> Yippeee ??????



Im putting in a tender for security for Manus Island. .....who's in


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2019)

Humid said:


> Im putting in a tender for security for Manus Island. .....who's in



Too much like hard work, we should supply mobiles and phone plans for them.


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Here you go @dutchie
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/national/fe...w/news-story/2fd41d98eb9d308e29254cdbbc243f6f
> 
> _For those who have been counting their chickens, the boat people might just save your divvies._



Bill will have the shovel out, trying to backfill the hole. lol


----------



## sptrawler (19 February 2019)

It sounds as though the medical transfer bill, is causing more problems than it solved, what a hoot.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...t-to-new-australian-laws-20190219-p50yqh.html

Greens immigration spokesman Nick McKim said "desperately sick people cannot be made well on Christmas Island" and accused Mr Shorten of "caving to [Mr] Morrison's fear campaign and lies.


----------



## Humid (19 February 2019)

We should get rid of parliament and just have chocolate wheel of policies


----------



## drsmith (19 February 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It sounds as though the medical transfer bill, is causing more problems than it solved, what a hoot.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...t-to-new-australian-laws-20190219-p50yqh.html
> 
> Greens immigration spokesman Nick McKim said "desperately sick people cannot be made well on Christmas Island" and accused Mr Shorten of "caving to [Mr] Morrison's fear campaign and lies.



The Greens are spitting blood but Bill is not so keen.


> Greens immigration spokesman Nick McKim accused the Government of "subverting the intent of the Parliament".
> 
> He said supporters of the so-called Phelps bill wanted people brought to the mainland.
> 
> ...




It's good to be back.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-19/nauru-law-could-threaten-medical-evacuation-bill/10826260


----------



## sptrawler (19 February 2019)

The Greens bringing on a vote of no confidence, over boat people, Bill wont be keen on that.
Richard Di Natale, might be flexing his muscles, with the Green/ Labor coalition, looking likely.


----------



## Humid (20 February 2019)

drsmith said:


> The Greens are spitting blood but Bill is not so keen.
> 
> 
> It's good to be back.
> ...




Lost in Space?


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2019)

Good to have you back Dr Smith. Did the aliens get you ?


----------



## drsmith (21 February 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Good to have you back Dr Smith. Did the aliens get you ?



I've been busier than in the past and I've noted perhaps the faintest glimmer of light in the distance for my preference between the two majors.

A closer contest, should that play out, makes for a more interesting one.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2019)

drsmith said:


> I've been busier than in the past and I've noted perhaps the faintest glimmer of light in the distance for my preference between the two majors.
> 
> A closer contest, should that play out, makes for a more interesting one.




If that glimmer is the Medevac Bill, I wouldn't place too much reliance on that. I think people are getting sick of the hysteria that the government goes on with about refugees, when they themselves have bought about 1,000 to the mainland for medical treatment.

Hysteria, dishonesty and double standards have been the Coalitions hallmarks in relation to this bill imo.


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2019)

Good to see everything back to normal. Lol


----------



## sptrawler (22 February 2019)

Sounds like Trump is coming to Australia, later in the year, Bill will be able to tell him to his face " he is barking mad ". 
Now that should be great t.v. lol


----------



## bellenuit (22 February 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like Trump is coming to Australia, later in the year, Bill will be able to tell him to his face " he is barking mad ".
> Now that should be great t.v. lol




If Trump lasts beyond next week.


----------



## sptrawler (22 February 2019)

bellenuit said:


> If Trump lasts beyond next week.



That's interesting, is there something afoot? I've been hearing he is going to be tossed out for awhile.


----------



## dutchie (26 February 2019)

Terri Butler is a great example of why there should not be quotas.

(see Q&A)


----------



## Humid (26 February 2019)

dutchie said:


> Terri Butler is a great example of why there should not be quotas.
> 
> (see Q&A)




Ask yourself why the current government will be ousted 
Nothing to do with quotas


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2019)

It is certainly going to get interesting quickly IMO, a large pay rise for the minimum wage, weekend penalties back, next we will be back to shops closing mid day Saturday.lol
It is all good vote catching stuff, but he will need more than the retirees to pay for it. IMO

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...um-wage-under-labor-plan-20190313-p513un.html

All very honourable and gives everyone a warm feeling it the tummy, but the fall out will be interesting, hopefully they pull it off without sending everyone broke.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It is certainly going to get interesting quickly IMO, a large pay rise for the minimum wage, weekend penalties back, next we will be back to shops closing mid day Saturday.lol
> It is all good vote catching stuff, but he will need more than the retirees to pay for it. IMO
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...um-wage-under-labor-plan-20190313-p513un.html
> ...




The more people earn, the more they spend, the greater the income for business.

Small and medium sized businesses have just had a tax cut, now it's time to start giving some back to their employees.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The more people earn, the more they spend, the greater the income for business.
> 
> Small and medium sized businesses have just had a tax cut, now it's time to start giving some back to their employees.



It will be interesting, I'm seeeing a lot of shops closing, I hope the extra spending exceeds the extra wages bill.


----------



## PZ99 (14 March 2019)

If shops are going to close because of penalty rates they must be non viable anyway.

It's time to move away from this Cambodian style of employment. If shops close on Sunday they'll merely trade on another day and more employees will get their family time back.

All up - I think it's worth it. We work to live - not live to work.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2019)

PZ99 said:


> All up - I think it's worth it. We work to live - not live to work.




That is definitely the mantra today.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2019)

PZ99 said:


> It's time to move away from this Cambodian style of employment. If shops close on Sunday they'll merely trade on another day and more employees will get their family time back.



I'm in favour of penalty rates being paid but on the other hand I see a definite problem if we end up going back to the days when the shops were shut on a weekend.

It worked in the days when most were married by their early-20's and once married a woman was generally expected to be at home not working. Plenty of time to do the shopping yes.

Doesn't really work these days with so many people either single or both partners working and with longer commutes in the cities so they've got zero chance of going to any shop Monday to Friday.

If the shops want to open then let them open, at present some states allow that but others have rules to protect special mates of the political parties. Nothing bad seemed to happen where hours have been deregulated so my view is deregulate yes but penalty rates for weekend work isn't an unreasonable concept or expectation so long as "office hours" remain Monday to Friday.


----------



## Macquack (14 March 2019)

dutchie said:


> Terri Butler is a great example of why there should not be quotas.
> 
> (see Q&A)



Terri Butler was the only person on the QandA panel who did not believe in God,  so she had to be the smartest person on the night.

If you want "a great example of why there should not be quotas" - Michaelia Cash. Nasty piece of work who steals money from the taxpayers.


----------



## PZ99 (14 March 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm in favour of penalty rates being paid but on the other hand I see a definite problem if we end up going back to the days when the shops were shut on a weekend.
> 
> It worked in the days when most were married by their early-20's and once married a woman was generally expected to be at home not working. Plenty of time to do the shopping yes.
> 
> ...



I agree. Shops can open every day in my view too. But they have to take the choice when it comes to the Sunday allowance. If they say they can't afford to open on a Sunday - that's their problem - not that of every other Sunday employee.

Woolies in Sydney even tried to have their workers redo their shelving on Christmas morning. Happily the (Liberal) Govt said no.

Employers are simply taking the mickey when it comes to IR laws these days.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Woolies in Sydney even tried to have their workers redo their shelving on Christmas morning. Happily the (Liberal) Govt said no.




Lucky the Power Station workers, nurses, police etc, don't take Christmas off.

It's a shame the Government don't step in and give them the day off.


----------



## PZ99 (14 March 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Lucky the Power Station workers, nurses, police etc, don't take Christmas off.
> 
> It's a shame the Government don't step in and give them the day off.



They are taking on those jobs knowing full well they have to work on Christmas day.

Retail employers on the other hand are continually trying to change the IR laws.


----------



## Junior (15 March 2019)

Higher minimum wage & higher penalty rates = less jobs, less hours, and more businesses that become nonviable, especially small businesses.

Getting the balance right is the key.  Too many pundits talk about this stuff as though you can raise wages, and everyone wins.  It's far more complex than that with many side effects.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2019)

Junior said:


> Higher minimum wage & higher penalty rates = less jobs, less hours, and more businesses that become nonviable, especially small businesses.
> 
> Getting the balance right is the key.  Too many pundits talk about this stuff as though you can raise wages, and everyone wins.  It's far more complex than that with many side effects.




If you want to depress the economy, then depress the consumer spending that makes up 60% of the economy.

Sure you want to avoid wage inflation, but people on low wages are doing it tough because of rising costs especially power, insurance and other charges. Small business has had a tax cut, so it's time to pass some of that on to their employees.


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2019)

Junior said:


> Higher minimum wage & higher penalty rates = less jobs, less hours, and more businesses that become nonviable, especially small businesses.
> 
> Getting the balance right is the key.  Too many pundits talk about this stuff as though you can raise wages, and everyone wins.  It's far more complex than that with many side effects.



There's nothing complex about it - you only have to look at history.

The balance had been right for the best part of 30 years. During that time we went from 10% unemployment - high inflation - high Govt debt to 4% unemployment - low inflation and no Govt debt in 2007... all with penalty rates intact. It was only after the Coaltion unbalanced the IR laws that businesses started believing they could operate with a permanent regime of low wage growth and confiscated employee benefits.

Look how well that worked out. We have the reserve bank stating that low wage growth is holding back the economy which can only be fixed with a minimum 3% payrise per annum.

Businesses and Govts are only offering half that amount. If a business becomes non viable as a result of winding back the IR laws to just two years ago then you really have to ask yourself just viable it was in the first place.


----------



## moXJO (15 March 2019)

Will we have the highest minimum wage in the world?

The question needs to be: why is everything so expensive here?

Just feels like this just adds to the position that we are on our way to a hard landing. How high do we expect everything to keep going up?


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2019)

moXJO said:


> Will we have the highest minimum wage in the world?
> 
> The question needs to be: why is everything so expensive here?
> 
> Just feels like this just adds to the position that we are on our way to a hard landing. How high do we expect everything to keep going up?




Everything is expensive here because we are one of the highest taxing countries in the the world. That's the price we pay for living in a 3 tier over-governed country. We've also developed this strange need of permanently stimulating a market that has a flow on effect on prices.

Business also pay some of the highest rents in the world. Sydney is the third most expensive place in the world for shop rental. 

Instead of donating to a political party to advance their own interests, the business community should be taking aim at the true source of their grief.


----------



## moXJO (15 March 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Everything is expensive here because we are one of the highest taxing countries in the the world. That's the price we pay for living in a 3 tier over-governed country. We've also developed this strange need of permanently stimulating a market that has a flow on effect on prices.
> 
> Business also pay some of the highest rents in the world. Sydney is the third most expensive place in the world for shop rental.
> 
> Instead of donating to a political party to advance their own interests, the business community should be taking aim at the true source of their grief.



I agree with the above. It's not just taxes, but also the leech industries that add costs to business.
I'm for penalty rates. But when a recession hits, I wonder if the idiots in government will think they can keep wages, rates,  fees as are. Especially public servants wage rises. Or do we have to hit rock bottom before they will act?

I've also noticed that a choice of products/services has narrowed greatly. Smaller business is calling it a day in many areas and only dealing in a narrow profitable range.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> If you want to depress the economy, then depress the consumer spending that makes up 60% of the economy.
> 
> Sure you want to avoid wage inflation, but people on low wages are doing it tough because of rising costs especially power, insurance and other charges. Small business has had a tax cut, so it's time to pass some of that on to their employees.



I agree with the tax point, the way to increase wages is with a tax cut, that needs to be passed on.
To just give a large blanket raise to the minimum wage, just causes a knock on effect, due to relativity. All of a sudden the worker on rung one of the ladder, is getting more than the one on rung two etc.
The real fear is run away inflation, as happened in the mid 1970's, that will end up with the Aust dollar collapsing.
But who knows, that may be the plan, the whole Labor plan sounds like it came from Keating.
It is far too clever and cunning, for silly Billy and don't care Chris, to come up with. IMO
Also it is probably the only way the unions would have got on board, the way it affects the working class, there has to be something in it for the union.
So my guess is the union run Industry Funds, therefore by default the union hierarchy, do well.
The workers get a pay rise, the $ goes down, which counteracts the pay rises. Everything costs more, but we end up more competitive, with a lower living standard but cheaper housing.
Let's see how it pans out. Just my opinion.


----------



## Junior (15 March 2019)

PZ99 said:


> There's nothing complex about it - you only have to look at history.
> 
> The balance had been right for the best part of 30 years. During that time we went from 10% unemployment - high inflation - high Govt debt to 4% unemployment - low inflation and no Govt debt in 2007... all with penalty rates intact. It was only after the Coaltion unbalanced the IR laws that businesses started believing they could operate with a permanent regime of low wage growth and confiscated employee benefits.
> 
> ...




I think there's major global factors at play which help explain why everything went so well in Australia for those 30 years.  Huge expansion in household & corporate debt, a once in 100-year mining boom and consistently falling interest rates meant that cash poured into the economy (CHINA!!).  That party ended in 2008.  I don't think you can attribute much of that period of success to IR laws.


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2019)

Junior said:


> I think there's major global factors at play which help explain why everything went so well in Australia for those 30 years.  Huge expansion in household & corporate debt, a once in 100-year mining boom and consistently falling interest rates meant that cash poured into the economy (CHINA!!).  That party ended in 2008.  I don't think you can attribute much of that period of success to IR laws.



Equally, I don't think we can attribute our current economic failures to IR laws either.
Other issues, yes, such as those in my previous post.

I will note however, in that 30 year period, we deregulated trading hours and retail workers agreed to work weekends in exchange for penalty rates. All evidence suggests it worked very well. There's no evidence of it being a failure in any period, including the GFC.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2019)

PZ99 said:


> If shops are going to close because of penalty rates they must be non viable anyway.
> 
> It's time to move away from this Cambodian style of employment. If shops close on Sunday they'll merely trade on another day and more employees will get their family time back.
> 
> All up - I think it's worth it. We work to live - not live to work.




Going back a day or so to one of your older posts PZ99.
Here is something in the 'West Australian', that highlights exactly what you are saying about work to live, as opposed to live to work.

https://thewest.com.au/news/social/...young-people-from-getting-jobs-ng-b881135532z

I was talking with a mate of mine the other day, who I did my apprenticeship with, he now works for the council. He was saying the best workers, on the junk collection, are foreign.


----------



## PZ99 (15 March 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Going back a day or so to one of your older posts PZ99.
> Here is something in the 'West Australian', that highlights exactly what you are saying about work to live, as opposed to live to work.
> 
> https://thewest.com.au/news/social/...young-people-from-getting-jobs-ng-b881135532z
> ...



On the other side of the coin I remember a post from another member saying young jobseekers _are_ finding work at firms such as McDonalds because they are motivated to do so.

That article highlights the very problem I've been alluding to: Somehow it's become the responsibility of those who are already doing the hard yards to cop further sacrifices to make it easier for work to come to the front door of demotivated unemployed who don't want to work.

If someone has developed a sense of entitlement - no amount of wage stifling is going to help them and it certainly won't help any other worker.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2019)

PZ99 said:


> On the other side of the coin I remember a post from another member saying young jobseekers _are_ finding work at firms such as McDonalds because they are motivated to do so.
> 
> That article highlights the very problem I've been alluding to: Somehow it's become the responsibility of those who are already doing the hard yards to cop further sacrifices to make it easier for work to come to the front door of demotivated unemployed who don't want to work.
> 
> If someone has developed a sense of entitlement - no amount of wage stifling is going to help them and it certainly won't help any other worker.



You are right, I think they have run out of ideas, on how to get people to work.

It is time they tried something new, and I think it is coming.


----------



## Humid (15 March 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Going back a day or so to one of your older posts PZ99.
> Here is something in the 'West Australian', that highlights exactly what you are saying about work to live, as opposed to live to work.
> 
> https://thewest.com.au/news/social/...young-people-from-getting-jobs-ng-b881135532z
> ...




Yeah people without local support and family are easy to manipulate 
As for the story in the Worst Australian all them words but fails to disclose the pay rate.
The trouble with type of employment is these people usually conveniently don’t bring up health and safety problems either.


----------



## PZ99 (1 April 2019)

_






"There will be no carbon tax...." _

_https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...n/news-story/4136a8900dec9ff93623330c482f160b_


----------



## Logique (1 April 2019)

He and Chris Bowen just need a top hat and twirly moustache.

Under a Labor government, tough times ahead for Nanna:

Denied her tax refund - because she's old and an easy target.

 Regulated out of her Corolla to go to the shops in - as only a $30k electric Prius will be ideologically acceptable now, which she can't afford to buy.  Shame on the NRMA for heartlessly caving in to this nonsense.


----------



## PZ99 (1 April 2019)

Logique said:


> He and Chris Bowen just need a top hat and twirly moustache.
> 
> Under a Labor government, tough times ahead for Nanna:
> 
> ...



Yeah I saw the NRMA article - utter garbage and not practical in this country with its vast distances between major cities. And adding a carbon tax to your power bill isn't exactly going to spark an electric car revolution.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2019)

I'd like to know how many power stations they will have to build to charge all the electric cars.


----------



## basilio (1 April 2019)

Logique said:


> He and Chris Bowen just need a top hat and twirly moustache.
> 
> Under a Labor government, tough times ahead for Nanna:
> 
> ...




My God you do sprout such questionable ideological dribble Loqique ! Do you ever listen to some of the stuff you say and check it for reality ?

Dear Nanna can still keep her trusty Corolla. She doesn't *have* to buy a new electric car.
But if she does there is a hybrid Coralla for the same price as her petrol model but it just uses half the petrol..  And if it is a newer fully electric car it will be even cheaper to run and have  FA servicing costs.

Electric cars are the way to go in the near future .  Cleaner, more reliable, far more economical and getting cheaper by the year.

Yes we do have to get a handle on  a ton  of new renewable energy sources and storage capacity as well to enable these cars to be charged. But Nanna might just decide that these could be a tidy little investment that earn her as much as her current share portfolio.

And what part of this story is ridiculous?

https://www.mynrma.com.au/membership/benefits/features/ready-for-the-electric-future


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2019)

The cost of living is going to go through the roof. 

Chaotic, crisis management will be back on the agenda, Kev could well be given a call up.


----------



## sptrawler (9 April 2019)

Good to see Labor going back to its blue collar roots, with new candidates, the chardonnay set. lol
I wish they would go back to the rank and file, to bring through some real blue collar feeling.
These days you can have any colour, as long as it's beige.
https://thewest.com.au/entertainmen...onaire-husband-warwick-hemsley-ng-b881161438z


----------



## PZ99 (9 April 2019)

She was more negative about his gear than he was


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

Interesting take on Labor's cancer plans.

https://thewest.com.au/opinion/paul...ill-for-shortens-cancer-policy-ng-b881163102z

It sounds like another rort just waiting to happen. IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting take on Labor's cancer plans.
> 
> https://thewest.com.au/opinion/paul...ill-for-shortens-cancer-policy-ng-b881163102z
> 
> It sounds like another rort just waiting to happen. IMO




Paul Murray
Radio broadcaster
*Description*
Paul Murray is a *conservative *radio and TV broadcaster based in Sydney, Australia. He was the former regular Mornings presenter on 2UE show "A Sydney Morning". He also hosts Paul Murray Live on Sky News Australia which airs Sunday to Thursday at 9pm AEST. and Saturday Edition. Wikipedia


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Paul Murray
> Radio broadcaster
> *Description*
> Paul Murray is a *conservative *radio and TV broadcaster based in Sydney, Australia. He was the former regular Mornings presenter on 2UE show "A Sydney Morning". He also hosts Paul Murray Live on Sky News Australia which airs Sunday to Thursday at 9pm AEST. and Saturday Edition. Wikipedia



Still valid points and makes sense, if I put a list of left leaning radio and tv broadcasters here, Joe would need more web space.
Oh I forgot, you can only post left leaning comments on here, another space hi   jacked.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2019)

I see Chris Bowen has thrown his hat into the ring, for the leadership, best of luck with that.
If you dont like it, vote for someone else, will haunt him for the rest of his political career. IMO
Imagine if he was in control of both houses, with that attitude, he has made himself an easy target.
Shame really, I thought he did a great job as shadow immigration minister, worst case of foot in mouth Ive seen.
Im in the dr surgery atm, I need something to get the smile off my face, its been there since Saturday.lol


----------



## wayneL (21 May 2019)

Tough choice for Labor - play to their former working class base,  or the inner city,  guilt ridden,  virtue signalling trendies who regard the working class as toothless,  knuckle dragging troglodytes, fit only to be gardeners and tyre changers for their Beamer.


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> Tough choice for Labor - play to their former working class base,  or the inner city,  guilt ridden,  virtue signalling trendies who regard the working class as toothless,  knuckle dragging troglodytes, fit only to be gardeners and tyre changers for their Beamer.



Yes Wayne, all those chardonnay sipping virtue signalers will just have to keep their franking credits, they so wished to give away. Oh well maybe they will just have to try and stop taking them in three years time, meanwhile as they watch the sun set over Sydney harbour, they will just have to tut tut for the poor working class. 
Of course they could always just back up their disdain of the system, and remove their millions from super, thereby solving the problem. Cheers


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2019)

Talk about delusional, Shorten and Bowen have become the Abbott and Hockey of the Labor Party, this will be really interesting.

https://www.smh.com.au/federal-elec...im-for-labor-s-heartland-20190521-p51pra.html


----------



## drsmith (22 May 2019)

Bill Shorten has gone back to doing what he does best, working the phones.

He'll cast a dark shadow over Labor as long as he remains in parliament.


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2019)

drsmith said:


> Bill Shorten has gone back to doing what he does best, working the phones.
> 
> He'll cast a dark shadow over Labor as long as he remains in parliament.



Maybe the media will get after him, as they did Abbott.


----------



## wayneL (22 May 2019)

Why isn't there a gender quota?


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2019)

At least Labor had the sense not to put Bowen in.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-and-chalmers-deal-firms-20190522-p51q2r.html

Now we have to wait and see, if Shorten and Bowen, become the Abbott and Dutton of the Labor Party.

How Bowen could have got it so wrong and not understand it, just shows he hasn't got a clue.

From his press release:
_But he also believes that Labor's election loss was about campaign tactics, not policy alone.
"We need to remind ourselves how to talk to the base, which is not inner city," Bowen says in an interview.
"If you look at the election, wealthy areas swung to us and poorer areas swung away from us.
"When you consider our agenda was fairly redistributive, that's pretty extraordinary.
"So we're obviously not communicating with that part of society who would be natural Labor supporters if we were talking the right language to them."

Labor gained voters where it needed them least, such as the wealthier electorates of Goldstein in Melbourne and North Sydney in NSW. It lost voters in "battler" areas like Bowen's seat of McMahon, where there was a 3 per cent swing to the Liberals and 8 per cent support for Pauline Hanson's One Nation_.


----------



## PZ99 (22 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> Why isn't there a gender quota?



There's no need. You can be whatever you want now


----------



## SirRumpole (22 May 2019)

drsmith said:


> Bill Shorten has gone back to doing what he does best, working the phones.
> 
> He'll cast a dark shadow over Labor as long as he remains in parliament.




I expect Shorten will quietly retire from politics in a few months, I doubt if he's as silly as Abbott to hang on when he knows he's not wanted.


----------



## Logique (23 May 2019)

Labor, the party for women. They like to stick the boot into everyone else about female representation, where are the women candidates for Opposition leader?

Tanya, Penny, Catherine .. hello, anyone there?


----------



## moXJO (23 May 2019)

Did identity politics just die? 

I doubt it. But it does feel on the outer,  thank God


----------



## wayneL (23 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> Did identity politics just die?
> 
> I doubt it. But it does feel on the outer,  thank God



I don't think identity politics will ever die, it will always be around and always has been, vis a vis, racial supremism (no not just white), religious supremism, feminism, postmodern intersectionality and all the other toxic shxt.

But I think there is a huge lesson about silent majorities and that extremists are often the most noisy. Treat with ignore.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> Did identity politics just die?




I hope so.

It's about time politicians treated the people as Australians rather than Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists or women.


----------



## wayneL (23 May 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope so.
> 
> It's about time politicians treated the people as Australians rather than Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists or women.



Exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post but you just put it much more succinctly.

Absolutely


----------



## rederob (23 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> Exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post but you just put it much more succinctly.



Rumpy got it right.
Unfortunately your post was not actually about "identity politics" because we don't have parties espousing such policies.

"Silent majority" and "noisy" are also a poor fit.
But again, top marks for consistency.


----------



## wayneL (23 May 2019)

rederob said:


> Rumpy got it right.
> Unfortunately your post was not actually about "identity politics" because we don't have parties espousing such policies.
> 
> "Silent majority" and "noisy" are also a poor fit.
> But again, top marks for consistency.



The village idiot playing the man again. You are a bad faith actor Robbee...  a p1ssed off one too because your mob got rolled. 

Happy to debate if you have a point.


----------



## rederob (23 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> The village idiot playing the man again. You are a bad faith actor Robbee...  a p1ssed off one too because your mob got rolled.



I commented on what you posted.
It's typically poorly informed and licking in logic.
And as I added, you are consistent.
You also did not guess my vote correctly, but given your history of guessing rather than knowing, it was hardly a surprise.


----------



## HelloU (23 May 2019)

there are "i" statements, and there are "you" statements.

i generally find posts that are written with "i" statements tell part of the life journey of the poster.

i generally find that posts that use "you" statements are often critical, controlling and demeaning.


----------



## rederob (23 May 2019)

HelloU said:


> there are "i" statements, and there are "you" statements.
> 
> i generally find posts that are written with i statements tell part of the life journey of the poster.
> 
> i generally find that posts that use "you" statements are often critical, controlling and demeaning.



Deal with the content.
Readers can work it out from there.
These are give-away phrases:
*village idiot
playing the man
bad faith actor
a p1ssed off one
your mob*​The above were used by wayneL without substantiation.


----------



## HelloU (23 May 2019)

rederob said:


> Deal with the content.
> Readers can work it out from there.
> These are give-away phrases:
> *village idiot
> ...



(that was a general post for all btw)
i understand the point but we can only be responsible for the things that we write.
i am no angel, and i find "i" statements work well for me to temper my thoughts ...... because my thoughts do need tempering (something to do with me being the smartest person in the world).

that last bit was about me, not aimed at you - but i am willing to share it if appropriate.


----------



## rederob (23 May 2019)

HelloU said:


> i understand the point but we can only be responsible for the things that we write.



then write meaningfully
don't assume
"responsibility" then becomes irrelevant


----------



## moXJO (23 May 2019)

rederob said:


> These are give-away phrases:
> *village idiot
> playing the man
> bad faith actor
> ...



Do we have to vote on the above or something?


----------



## sptrawler (17 June 2019)

It would seem Albo is having a trail by fire, with the unions, it sounds like the ETU is getting involved with the John Setka issue now.


----------



## moXJO (17 June 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It would seem Albo is having a trail by fire, with the unions, it sounds like the ETU is getting involved with the John Setka issue now.



John setka is getting stitched up. It wasn't his comments about batty. It was the wasted $12 million the union lost on advertising and pr thinking they would reap the contract and policy rewards.
Setka threatened to pull funding and Albo and the labor party lost their sht.

Good luck getting rid of Setka. The unions couldn't ask for a better person that will go in boots and all and the members know it.


----------



## PZ99 (18 June 2019)

moXJO said:


> John setka is getting stitched up. It wasn't his comments about batty. It was the wasted $12 million the union lost on advertising and pr thinking they would reap the contract and policy rewards.
> Setka threatened to pull funding and Albo and the labor party lost their sht.
> 
> *Good luck getting rid of Setka. The unions couldn't ask for a better person that will go in boots and all and the members know it.*



I disagree. They can definitely ask for a better person. John Setka is an A-grade thug and everything that's repulsive about militant unions in this country. Disappoint the likes of Setka and you'll never look at an avocado the same way again. Just ask Kevin Rudd 

The ALP need to disassociate with the CMMMMMMFEU and reconnect with the ordinary working people who voted for Liberal in the last 3 elections.


----------



## moXJO (18 June 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I disagree. They can definitely ask for a better person. John Setka is an A-grade thug and everything that's repulsive about militant unions in this country. Disappoint the likes of Setka and you'll never look at an avocado the same way again. Just ask Kevin Rudd
> 
> The ALP need to disassociate with the CMMMMMMFEU and reconnect with the ordinary working people who voted for Liberal in the last 3 elections.



I agree, professionally I want him gone.
You know what I'm like with these types of union guys. 
However if you need a guy to fight in your corner then its hard to go past setka. The guy gives it his all.


----------



## IFocus (18 June 2019)

moXJO said:


> I agree, professionally I want him gone.
> You know what I'm like with these types of union guys.
> However if you need a guy to fight in your corner then its hard to go past setka. The guy gives it his all.




Agree the union movement particularly areas like construction have to have the likes of Setka bigger the thug the better.
Whats never discussed is that often the other side are criminals or utterly ruthless individuals at least it was in my day doubt much has changed other than the criminalising of union activities that remove their ability to organise.


----------



## moXJO (18 June 2019)

IFocus said:


> Agree the union movement particularly areas like construction have to have the likes of Setka bigger the thug the better.
> Whats never discussed is that often the other side are criminals or utterly ruthless individuals at least it was in my day doubt much has changed other than the criminalising of union activities that remove their ability to organise.



I have had some terrible site managers on site. Plenty of dust ups. A few that were bipolar and just some ridiculous stuff going on.

There are plenty of union reps I wouldn't p1ss on if they were on fire. And I'm sure I've moaned about setka before. But he is a man of strong convictions that has fought with all he has for his members. And at a personal toll to himself.
 I do believe in balance, as much as I may dislike or complain about something. 

If he is outed for corruption fair enough. If its a political hit then it doesn't wash.


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2019)

At last the truth starts filtering out, what a bunch of idiots. IMO

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...edit-refunds-in-one-year-20190716-p527p1.html

From the article:
_Mr Smith said Labor should have applied a means test to its policy to ensure that only rich Australians lost the entitlement. As previously reported, Labor considered doing this but decided against it because it would have robbed the party of billions in potential revenue_.

They just can't help themselves, looking after the little man? As if.
If they started to focus on what Labor is, they would get somewhere, but it is difficult when the party is run by chardonnay sipping intellectuals.


----------



## Caveman (17 July 2019)

Can you clarify here?Was the $500000.00 a refund or simply a tax reduction MR smith received?


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2019)

Caveman said:


> Can you clarify here?Was the $500000.00 a refund or simply a tax reduction MR smith received?



It was his franking credits, on his share portfolio, by the sound of it.
Which means he has a hell of a lot of shares.
I can't believe it was a refund per se, probably a tax reduction. IMO


----------



## Humid (18 July 2019)

The last 3 Prime Ministers have been Liberal and still harping on about Labor 

Great diversionary tactics. ...did you learn that from uncle Rupert


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2019)

What is happening with the Labor Party in NSW, sounds like 'Big Bussiness' has been buying a seat on the board.


----------



## sptrawler (8 September 2019)

Another example of a reasonable policy idea, poorly implemented and excecuted.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...and-developers-1-billion-20190908-p52p67.html


----------



## Knobby22 (9 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Another example of a reasonable policy idea, poorly implemented and excecuted.
> 
> https://www.theage.com.au/national/...and-developers-1-billion-20190908-p52p67.html




Note who published it and who investigated it.

Jacqui Lambie calls Setka a meathead and says she will pass the Lib bill unless he quits.
Gotto love her.


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Note who published it and who investigated it.
> .




I noticed it was the Grattan Institute, which are normally fairly pro left and Labor, Labor were going to roll out the same policy last election. It is a shame that for every Government handout, there is always people who will rort it, the underlying idea to provide below market rent for the underprivileged is good.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I noticed it was the Grattan Institute, which are normally fairly pro left and Labor, Labor were going to roll out the same policy last election. It is a shame that for every Government handout, there is always people who will rort it, the underlying idea to provide below market rent for the underprivileged is good.




They have good ideas that all the politicians ignore as they are not aligned with the think tanks of either party.  (IPA Liberal), Menzies Research Centre (Liberal)  Chifley Research Centre (Labor), John Curtain Research Centre (Labor) Fabian Society (Labor).

They claim to be independent and are disliked by the Conservatives and Labor alike and of course as an independent voice greatly hated by the Murdoch Press.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 October 2019)

I note the Labor Party (except for the very average  Kristina Keneally) have generally pulled their heads in. And even Kristina has shut up since receiving major criticism from within the party.
Nothing like being in opposition purgatory once again to concentrate thought.


----------



## sptrawler (24 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I note the Labor Party (except for the very average  Kristina Keneally) have generally pulled their heads in. And even Kristina has shut up since receiving major criticism from within the party.
> Nothing like being in opposition purgatory once again to concentrate thought.




Both parties, seem to have a lack of attention seekers, at last politicians who don't want to be t.v stars.
Now all we need, is the media to move on to some positive news reporting and maybe people will relax their sphincters and get on with their lives.


----------



## PZ99 (24 October 2019)

Kristina Keneally merely confirms my view she was a poor choice to run for the Bennelong byelection. Labor should have won that seat hands down but lost and I can't see them winning any federal elections anytime soon with their current leadership.


----------



## sptrawler (7 November 2019)

Pretty honest review of where Labor find themselves, hopefully they can re invent themselves, the last thing Australia needs is an ineffective opposition.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...g-including-bill-shorten-20191107-p538g2.html
From the article:
_Dr Emerson, once Bob Hawke's economics adviser and later a Queensland MP during the Rudd-Gillard years, gave a hair-raising reading of where the Labor Party now finds itself.

Trying hard to sound calm and analytical, he noted that low-income and job-insecure voters in the outer metropolitan and regional areas had swung away from the party, while high-income and highly-educated urban types had swung towards Labor.

Calm? This was an analysis of desolation for a party established to represent workers_ .

_Emerson simply noted, wall-eyed, that centre-left parties across the world were suffering similar fates.

Later, he observed that Labor has a fair bit of trouble winning elections from opposition. Quite.  The ALP has managed to do such a thing only thrice since World War 2 [Whitlam in 1972, Hawke in 1983 and Rudd in 2007).

The review itself shone more unwelcome light on the predicament.

"Labor has failed to win a majority in the House of Representatives in eight of its last nine starts," it says on the very first of those 90 pages.

And here was Labor in 2019: the party of rich urbanites, shunned by insecure workers_.


Well that analysis kind of echoes, what we were saying on ASF, at least it is a honest appraisal of the election.IMO


----------



## qldfrog (7 November 2019)

But isn't it worrying that the 2 headlines in ABC are on the navel gazing introspection?
Why did we lose, we should have won, it is not fair,etc.
Eery similar to Hilary's post Trump

Labour, if you want to be left wing, start having left wing policies
Pro worker, not welfare or refugees not immigration or green agenda.
Any of our new immigrant is one job less for usually a true blue aussie worker, and more tax for the ones keeping jobs
Wake up, communism failed for a reason, do not play a Bernie or the Australian Labour sick habit of importing English class war here

Equality of chances and rights but also duties, that does not mean equality of outcome.
There are plenty of real issues be it taxation of big international business, manufacturing destruction and the effect of free trade where Labour could be really progressive, but it seems to evade them
We do not need both tomatoes and watermelons here, the Greens are enough for post communism totalitarianism,Labour needs to find its way, out of unions, based on real working people  with at least a basic understanding of how economy works.we have the whole of western Europe as a model of what not to do


----------



## Logique (8 November 2019)

Shorten on record recently, saying if he had his time over, he'd revisit the franking credit policy.

The penny drops at last.  Why should we entrust the national economy to a political party that doesn't even understand how dividend imputation works!

It's a desperate situation for traditional blue collar ALP voters. When will Labor realize, you can't govern a nation from the inner-city coffee shops in Ultimo and Fitzroy.

The "Light on the Hill" is barely a flickering pilot light


----------



## sptrawler (29 January 2020)

It sounds as though the Labour Party, are getting into a bit of pre selection biffo, between the factions, emotions are running high.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...actions-at-boiling-point-20200128-p53vg0.html


----------



## wayneL (13 February 2020)

Discuss:


----------



## IFocus (14 February 2020)

Paul Embery Retweeted





ZUBY:
@ZubyMusic

It's crazy how supporting: - free speech - civil discourse - anti-censorship - individual liberty - treating people TRULY equally & - tolerance of differing opinions is now considered a 'right-wing' position... There has been a strange inversion over the past 15 years.
8:42 PM · Feb 13, 2020·Twitter for Android
2.9K
 Retweets
12.5K
 Likes


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> It's crazy how supporting: - free speech - civil discourse - anti-censorship - individual liberty - treating people TRULY equally & - tolerance of differing opinions is now considered a 'right-wing' position... There has been a strange inversion over the past 15 years.
> 8:42 PM · Feb 13, 2020·Twitter for Android




Only some of those apply. Free speech is great when it agrees with your opinion.

That does apply equally to Right and Left of course.


----------



## sptrawler (14 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Only some of those apply. Free speech is great when it agrees with your opinion.
> 
> That does apply equally to Right and Left of course.



Free speech is completely dependent on what the media agrees with, if the don't agree they probably don't print it and if it is televised media they talk over anyone they don't agree with .


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

OMG , another shoot from the hip moment, I hope it works for them. 
Back of the napkin, throw money from the rooftop statements that will require a business plan, I hope they don't blow their feet off.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...emissions-target-by-2050-20200220-p542tv.html


----------



## IFocus (21 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> OMG , another shoot from the hip moment, I hope it works for them.
> Back of the napkin, throw money from the rooftop statements that will require a business plan, I hope they don't blow their feet off.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...emissions-target-by-2050-20200220-p542tv.html





Yes absolutely insane............hang on the Tories are doing the same thing shezzas and they have a plan.

Whats the Coalitions plan again?


*Current targets*
The Climate Change Act 2008 set the country's emission reduction targets. The "*legally binding*" targets are a reduction of at least 100% by 2050 (against the 1990 baseline).[8]

It also mandates interim, 5-year budgets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_the_United_Kingdom


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2020)

I am wondering why none of the media, have stress tested the policies the Labor party took to the last election.
No franking credits to SMSF's, now there is every likely hood that they have lost 30% of their capital and wont get a dividend. lol
So a Government pension is on the cards.
No negative gearing on established homes, well the prices would have dropped and the ability of the homeowner to pay the mortgage would have dropped and investors wont be there. So $hit would be trumps.lol

Negative gearing allowed on new builds and a Government subsidy on the rent, so all those who lost their established homes could rent new homes that the rich are being subsidised to build. lol
Absolutely magic, the rich get richer and the poor get Government subsidised rentals from the rich, when they lose their house.
Labor looking after the working class, building a better Australia.


----------



## PZ99 (10 April 2020)

Agree about the franking credits but I don't agree with Negative gearing in any form. It's a double whammy if you're running your own losses and then having to pay for someone else's losses with your taxes as well. Sadly, people seem to think this is all just free money and we can all just hand in our jobs and lay in the sun all day everyday. Why bother working when you can get money for nothing? If Australia doesn't ditch its welfare state mentality it will blindly follow some poorer countries in to debt that can never be repaid. Other countries without this permanent drag on the balance sheet will of course recover quicker than we will.

And if Labor had won the election we would probably see a repeat of the Coalition blocking everything in the senate and these $300 billion handouts may never have seen the light of day.
It's easy to gain political mileage by saying no to everything when you're not in Govt.

Mind you, with the huge fines being handed for just walking in the park or going for a drive the Govts will probably get all that money back in no time anyway. LOL


----------



## Humid (10 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I am wondering why none of the media, have stress tested the policies the Labor party took to the last election.
> No franking credits to SMSF's, now there is every likely hood that they have lost 30% of their capital and wont get a dividend. lol
> So a Government pension is on the cards.
> No negative gearing on established homes, well the prices would have dropped and the ability of the homeowner to pay the mortgage would have dropped and investors wont be there. So $hit would be trumps.lol
> ...




They were going to bring back penalty rates
Stress test that
Them people in the mile long Centrelink lines might have had a few more bucks to spend 
But hey that didn’t effect you

You really need to get over something that never happened


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2020)

Humid said:


> They were going to bring back penalty rates
> Stress test that
> Them people in the mile long Centrelink lines might have had a few more bucks to spend
> But hey that didn’t effect you
> ...



Well at least it got more than one sentance out of you, I said you would improve.


----------



## Humid (10 April 2020)

Well I could become more like you and write paragraph after paragraph on the same thing
Over and over
Your franking credits are safe.. . .now for the dividends


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2020)

Humid said:


> Well I could become more like you and write paragraph after paragraph on the same thing
> Over and over
> Your franking credits are safe.. . .now for the dividends



Another well rounded response, now we just have to work on the content.


----------



## Humid (10 April 2020)

Here’s some content 
Coronavirus 
Mass unemployment 
Lockdowns 
Social Distancing 
Stock market crash 

Nah let’s talk about the Labor party and what would’ve of happened if they were in power

What were you drinking.....Gin?


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2020)

Humid said:


> Here’s some content
> Coronavirus
> Mass unemployment
> Lockdowns
> ...



But grasshopper, it is only with reflection that we can appreciate what we have, rather than what we haven't.
I see your Dad is giving you plenty of likes, along with me, keep your chin up sunshine.
Also check your super fund is liquid.


----------



## IFocus (10 April 2020)

SP Labor lost the war for Federal government but are you so lucky they won the state election


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> SP Labor lost the war for Federal government but are you so lucky they won the state election



I wont argue with that mate, I will give credit where credit is due, doing a great job and will get my vote at the next election without a doubt.
As soon as Barnett was gone the Libs were gone, one man band, but IMO a great band.
McGowan is of the same ilk and seems to be a great successor IMO.


----------



## Humid (10 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> But grasshopper, it is only with reflection that we can appreciate what we have, rather than what we haven't.
> I see your Dad is giving you plenty of likes, along with me, keep your chin up sunshine.
> Also check your super fund is liquid.




I’ll check it on my work computer


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> SP Labor lost the war for Federal government but are you so lucky they won the state election



Not here in Qld... At the very least and if only on the pathetic handling of this crisis.
You need leaders inspiring confidence and trust..well...not in the sunshine state
And this is a time when i really do not care about the political side.i know Beattie would have handled that level of magnitude better f.e.


----------



## Humid (11 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Not here in Qld... At the very least and if only on the pathetic handling of this crisis.
> You need leaders inspiring confidence and trust..well...not in the sunshine state
> And this is a time when i really do not care about the political side.i know Beattie would have handled that level of magnitude better f.e.




Don’t think about coming here........borders closed


----------



## Humid (11 April 2020)

Just another attack on industry super funds by the Libs
Liquid like the the banks and AMP funds were?
How did they perform lol


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2020)

At last Labor may be starting to pull their head out of their nether regions, and start to get back to what they should be about, decent jobs for Australians a future for Australians.
Labor has spent too long being hijacked by attention seeking lawyers, lunatics and sociopaths, who are more interested in media attention than attending to business, Albo may be the breath of fresh air they need, I certainly hope so.
Just my opinion, but this sounds promising, hopefully he means it. There is no doubt, it is the best media release labor has put out, since Keating.
The only down side is the multinationals and miners wont like it, therefore the media wont like it, which means the left wing will get stuck in with the boots.
You never know Albo may be the Trump Australia needs, to make Australia great again, then the working class will vote Labor again.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...ls-for-economic-overhaul-20200510-p54rl1.html
From the article:
_Mr Albanese will argue on Monday that the crisis should force a wider change in the country’s values and goals.

“In an era that worships celebrity, we need to regain our traditional respect for working people and do right by them,” he says.

“We are not just an economy, we are a society.”


He says this should mean stronger government action to create permanent jobs and an industrial relations system to lift productivity and share the benefits.

“We must revitalise high-value Australian manufacturing using our clean energy resources,” he says in the draft_.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...avirus-economy-insecure-work-covid19/12232654


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2020)

IFocus said:


> SP Labor lost the war for Federal government but are you so lucky they won the state election



I don't have an issue with who I vote for, I couldn't vote for the Libs with Barnett gone, they are a rabble IMO.
McGowan is doing a great job and will be in for a long time, he isn't pandering to the unions or industry, just getting on with doing a good job for the State.
Which is all you can ask from politicians, or indeed anyone, if everyone was doing their best Australia wouldn't have half the problems it has.


----------



## PZ99 (11 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> At last Labor may be starting to pull their head out of their nether regions, and start to get back to what they should be about, decent jobs for Australians a future for Australians.
> Labor has spent too long being hijacked by attention seeking lawyers, lunatics and sociopaths, who are more interested in media attention than attending to business, Albo may be the breath of fresh air they need, I certainly hope so.
> Just my opinion, but this sounds promising, hopefully he means it. There is no doubt, it is the best media release labor has put out, since Keating.
> The only down side is the multinationals and miners wont like it, therefore the media wont like it, which means the left wing will get stuck in with the boots.
> ...



It's all great etc but I don't have any high hopes for change because we don't have the population to support it. Without 1950's style tariffs Australian manufacturing is dead.

Perpetual GDP growth is the ultimate panacea for any nation motivated by profits. That plays into the hands of the Corporatocracy every time. Kinda sux but if can't beat 'em join 'em.

Now we're stuck with 'em. Increasing the money supply merely sped up that process.


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2020)

Interesting take on childcare, after screaming for years that subsidised childcare is middle class welfare, a complete backflip with two and a half turns degree of difficulty 180.
Not that I don't agree with the subsidy, just the fact Labor have beat the Libs over the head with it for decades, now all of a sudden it is a good idea and not middle class welfare.








						Subsidies for wealthy families are not welfare: Albanese
					

The Labor leader says his party's policy for childcare subsidies is an economic measure, not a welfare one.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
_Labor is defending its plan to subsidise childcare fees for families earning more than half a million dollars, saying it is not welfare but a way to get more women into more work_.


----------



## moXJO (11 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting take on childcare, after screaming for years that subsidised childcare is middle class welfare, a complete backflip with two and a half turns degree of difficulty 180.
> Not that I don't agree with the subsidy, just the fact Labor have beat the Libs over the head with it for decades, now all of a sudden it is a good idea and not middle class welfare.
> 
> 
> ...




Its like I woke up in "opposite world".

If Labor drift more to the centre I'd probably vote for them.

 Libs are getting weird and oppressive with their facial recognition cameras getting jammed in everywhere. Their restrictions on money, internet censorship, and other restrictions on freedoms and rights.

The big turnoff though is dictator Dan andrews and Qld Palachook enjoying their power trips a little to much.

Not much to choose from.


----------



## wayneL (11 October 2020)

It's weird innit?

The Liberal Party no longer represents liberalism (in the true sense), and the Labor Party no longer represents labour (in the true sense).

....and 95% if people haven't even figured that out yet.


----------



## explod (11 October 2020)

wayneL said:


> It's weird innit?
> 
> The Liberal Party no longer represents liberalism (in the true sense), and the Labor Party no longer represents labour (in the true sense).
> 
> ....and 95% if people haven't even figured that out yet.



A lot of head scratching though,

 but yes mostly lost


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2020)

wayneL said:


> It's weird innit?
> 
> The Liberal Party no longer represents liberalism (in the true sense), and the Labor Party no longer represents labour (in the true sense).



Well we have the Libs handing out more welfare than labor have ever done and Labor talking about subsidising childcare for the middle class, what a hoot.
The Libs finally working out the consumers are the engine room of the economy and Labor working out the only people who are having kids, are those on welfare. 😂
Funny how a disaster, makes them realise, how stupid their previous policies have been.


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2020)

Labor is starting to set themselves up for mixed messages yet again, they demonised the older worker and retirees last election, by claiming the retired workers or low paid workers shouldn't get their franking credits.
They were going to stop negative gearing on established houses, only new builds that only the well off could afford to build, then they were going to guarantee them rental subsidies.
Now they are isolating themselves from the younger generation, when the Government wants to encourage businesses to take on younger workers, in preference to older workers.
They really are having trouble deciding who they are in there batting for IMO, I certainly hope they get their act together before the next election, or it will be another term of wandering in the wilderness.
Just my opinion, but they appear to be painting a target on their backs, maybe it boils back to what @macca  said about three year terms and a short focus. The problem is the electorate remembers a couple of years.








						Government's youth hiring subsidy passes after One Nation backflip
					

The JobMaker scheme has passed but not without a parliamentary fight as One Nation backflipped on protections for the jobs of older workers.




					www.theage.com.au
				




IMO offering incentives to employ young workers is the way to go, they have no experience and probably struggle to gain employment against 35+ workers, also 35+workers are either established in work or wont have too much difficulty getting it. 
Unless they are long term unemployed and probably aren't chasing it, so I hope Labor explain well, their reasoning behind objecting.


----------



## sptrawler (15 November 2020)

It has taken a long time, but it looks as though the penny may finally be dropping at Labor HQ. The hijacking of the Labor Party by the intellectuals and lawyers has been going on for a years, finally questions are being asked, we already have enough coverage and representation for the inner city elites, with the Greens.








						Calls for 'class quotas' in Young Labor to bolster party's blue-collar ranks
					

A Labor thought leader wants the party's youth wing to consist of one third university students, one third TAFE students and one third young workers not studying.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:

_Nick Dyrenfurth - executive director of the John Curtin Research Centre - says the party should introduce new quotas for Young Labor (representing ALP members aged between 15 and 26) to recruit and retain more non-university students into its ranks.

Dr Dyrenfurth, who was the ALP's national policy forum secretary between 2016 and 2019, said there had been no effort to recruit "actual working people" such as tradies, assembly-line workers, train drivers, cleaners, retail employees or plumbers into the party's membership.

He said the narrowness of the party's membership had contributed to the cultural problems and electoral weakness at the federal level. 

"Labor was once a working-class party that needed middle-class votes to win elections; it has since become a university-educated, socially-liberal, white-collar party that needs blue-collar, non-tertiary educated, precariously employed votes to win," Dr Dyrenfurth writes in The Tocsin, the centre's quarterly publication.

Young Labor draw upwards of 95 per cent of its members from university campuses, mainly from the top-ranking institutions he writes, and not from the 72 per cent of non-tertiary degree holding Australians_.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It has taken a long time, but it looks as though the penny may finally be dropping at Labor HQ. The hijacking of the Labor Party by the intellectuals and lawyers has been going on for a years, finally questions are being asked, we already have enough coverage and representation for the inner city elites, with the Greens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've said it before and I'll say it again, Labor is pandering to fringe groups too much and ignoring their "base".

We all remember Bill Shorten at the Beaconsfield mine disaster, and I would say a large majority would have voted Labor at that time, but now as Fitzgibbon said, they vote National or one nation to protect their jobs against Labor's climate change policy.

Not that I'm saying climate change is not important, but it has to be sold to the electorate, and Labor has come up with no plan to replace mining jobs with jobs in the renewable energy industry.

How about they commit to setting up solar panel manufacturing sites in the Hunter and other electorates with coal mining backgrounds. 

That would at least give the miners and their descendants hope for the future.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2021)

Interesting move by Albo, hope he can pull off the sale of the policy, as it was them that destroyed manufacturing by dismantling trade tariffs in the first place. Hopefully it isn't just an election policy pitch, but an honest re asessment of labor's fundamental beliefs.








						‘A country that makes things’: Labor’s $15b manufacturing plan to be unveiled
					

Labor will propose a multibillion-dollar fund to pump-prime Australia’s manufacturing sector to give the private sector and super funds incentives to invest in local innovation.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
_In his address to Labor’s traditionally triennial national conference, to be held for the first time online, Mr Albanese will tell party faithful the coronavirus pandemic had exposed serious deficiencies in the economy, in particular Australia’s ability to manufacture products and be globally competitive when it comes to innovation and technology_.


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting move by Albo, hope he can pull off the sale of the policy, as it was them that destroyed manufacturing by dismantling trade tariffs in the first place. Hopefully it isn't just an election policy pitch, but an honest re asessment of labor's fundamental beliefs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not so "useless" after all ?


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Not so "useless" after all ?



At last a glimmer of hope, it has taken an awful long time, like 30 years.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting move by Albo, hope he can pull off the sale of the policy, as it was them that destroyed manufacturing by dismantling trade tariffs in the first place.



If they're serious then I'll vote for them.

I'll even grin and bear some reasonable increases in taxation so long as it's fairly collected and being put to good use for the long term future of the country.

We really can't go on being a country of quarries and cafes. There's a place for that of course but we need more advanced things too.


----------



## Humid (30 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Not so "useless" after all ?



Not when you throw in Medicare and Super........


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Not that I'm saying climate change is not important, but it has to be sold to the electorate, and Labor has come up with no plan to replace mining jobs with jobs in the renewable energy industry.



At the risk of putting people on a pedestal, it's not just about professions versus trades and manual workers but about the detail.

I've never met a lawyer who won't go straight down the track of contracting and outsourcing things. Tell them you want to do it yourself and they'll say it's all too risky.

I've never met an engineer who wouldn't be more impressed with a production line or a construction site. Risk? Well that's sorted by having people who know what they're doing.

If we do it the right way well there's an awful lot of people that can be employed in manufacturing wind and solar components, in building hydro schemes, in putting up transmission lines and so on. Some of that's temporary, some of it's permanent, but overall it's a lot of people and a large portion of that work's of a blue collar nature with the opportunity for training on the job where required.

I've nothing against lawyers by the way, they're just not in my experience the right people to get this done.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2021)

Humid said:


> Not when you throw in Medicare and Super........



Yep the last time that labor was about the worker, not about cringe worthy, attention seeking intellectuals.
Albo is the best chance they have had, in a long time IMO.
What did Rudd and Gillard do for the worker, other than lift the retirement age to 67 and make it impossible for a worn out worker to get a disability pension.
Albo is a breath of fresh air IMO, they may at last have found their mojo.
McGowan has shown, you don't have to be a left wing loony or cowtow to the green elites or union factions, to be a good Labor leader.
Giving back the Bell Resources payout to the taxpayers, shows he hasn't lost his roots, many pollies would have put that into consolidated revenue.
It is about getting companies and workers to work together, for a common goal, which betters everyone's lot and McGowan appears to be achieving that.
When asked why he is so popular, he said he is middle of the road, I would agree with that and if Albo follows suite he will be just as popular that is what the majority want.


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've nothing against lawyers by the way, they're just not in my experience the right people to get this done.




The same goes for economists and accountants.  (and especially political ideologues)


----------



## Humid (31 March 2021)

Labor policy dumped by Abbott
Let them figures sink in
Something for the worker SP?
Useless indeed


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## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 122161
> 
> Labor policy dumped by Abbott
> Let them figures sink in
> ...



I have always said there should be a volumetric tax on our resources, what Labor was suggesting was a "tax" on "super profits", like that was smart ? They have enough trouble getting the correct amount of tax out them already, offshoring profits has been going on for years and still is, it was typical Labor dumb arse implementation.

From the Labor treasurer of the day, even he knew they weren't paying the correct tax, so they were going to implement another one on top of the one that they weren't paying? Jeez.








						BHP Billiton has evaded taxes for more than a decade, says Wayne Swan
					

Former Labor treasurer says miner ‘gamed the system’ by using aggressive transfer pricing to smuggle profits out of Australia




					www.theguardian.com
				



Brendan Grylls was smart enough to realise a tax was required on the volume, not the excess profit, 'super profits tax' just another past Labor brain fart to get media attention.IMO








						WA Nationals leader digs in on mining tax as BHP Billiton steps up attack
					

Brendon Grylls is going to the state election with a mining tax proposal he says will recoup the government an extra $2.3bn a year – and the industry is escalating its campaign to oust him




					www.theguardian.com
				




Labor was hijacked by university trained political intellectuals, I'm not saying they weren't smart, just that they weren't there for the working man, you may think differently that's your prerogative.
But I didn't see them do anything other than grandstand and increase the pension age, ask a 65 year old brickie what he thinks about Labor.
Like I said, with Albo at the front they may get the grass roots back, they lost all of them last election.
Again as I have said before, it is only my opinion and I'm sure there are just as many people with opposing opinions which is a good thing IMO.


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Labor was hijacked by university trained political intellectuals, I'm not saying they weren't smart, just that they weren't there for the working man



That's it basically.

The working man and woman have been done over a few too many times now to have much faith in these people.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's it basically.
> 
> The working man and woman have been done over a few too many times now to have much faith in these people.



Well the older ones have, the younger ones are still star struck and soak up the rhetoric.
We were all the same when we were young, idealistic and believed that someone was there batting for you.  😂


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> We were all the same when we were young, idealistic and believed that someone was there batting for you



A difference though is that at least in the past if someone representing a university was quoted in the media, they generally were an actual expert on the subject and commenting strictly from that perspective.

Sadly these days universities are just another institution that has lost much of the integrity they once had. Whatever someone says, it'll be a polished message which aligns with a preferred political outcome.

As a case in point, for non-political purposes I searched for and found online an old photo of a major piece of energy infrastructure. It's a CSIRO photo and filed under "science photos". It's not dated but based on the detail of what's shown would have been taken sometime between 1981 and 1986.

If that was taken today by just about any organisation it would be filed under "politics", "climate change" or a more specific politically motivated term. Such is the extent to which pretty much everything has been politicised.

The ability to simply stick to facts has been lost even by those who really should know better.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yep the last time that labor was about the worker, not about cringe worthy, attention seeking intellectuals.
> Albo is the best chance they have had, in a long time IMO.
> What did Rudd and Gillard do for the worker, other than lift the retirement age to 67 and make it impossible for a worn out worker to get a disability pension.
> Albo is a breath of fresh air IMO, they may at last have found their mojo.
> ...



As I said Labor doesn't have to be a party that panders to the inner city elite's, greens and union hacks, just be there for  everyone, as McGowan has shown. 
Politics doesn't have to be about demonising sector of the community, to put one group against another, which has been the norm in the recent past, ably supported by a disruptive media. IMO 
Here is an article in todays W.A paper, an absolute breath of fresh air, McGowan coming from a navy background isn't carrying the baggage that a lot of politicians do.IMO
Albo could do well to read the article.








						‘We must be mainstream’: Labor leaders tell conference to claim the centre
					

WA Premier Mark McGowan, who almost wiped out the state Liberal Party, said his government had achieved its success by appealing to the whole community.




					www.watoday.com.au
				



From the article:
Labor premiers fresh off election victories have delivered a message to the party to go mainstream and represent the broadest possible slice of the electorate as Anthony Albanese’s team tweaked its platform to recognise coal jobs.

WA Premier Mark McGowan, who almost wiped out the state Liberal Party in the March election, said his government had achieved its successes by appealing to everyone from Labor’s traditional base of workers and tradespeople through to small business owners and professionals.
“We should talk to the whole community, we must be mainstream,” Mr McGowan said. “A party that understands the pressures that families face right across our suburbs and our regions.”


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Sadly these days universities are just another institution that has lost much of the integrity they once had.




I totally agree, but I don't think it was the Labor party what dun it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I totally agree, but I don't think it was the Labor party what dun it.



Agreed but it has fed back into the party to the extent it attracts members with that background who then carry that approach into politics.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I totally agree, but I don't think it was the Labor party what dun it.



I think all parties are to blame, the disgraceful state of our education system can be laid at the feet of both parties, one for underfunding and the other for dismantling the standard. IMO
One just has to check how many pollies come from a teaching or law background.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think all parties are to blame, the disgraceful state of our education system can be laid at the feet of both parties, one for underfunding and the other for dismantling the standard. IMO
> One just has to check how many pollies come from a teaching or law background.




Yes I agree. The looney Left have got into schools and Universities and sent them woke because Maths and Science are too hard and the province of white males so they must be bad.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes I agree. The looney Left have got into schools and Universities and sent them woke because Maths and Science are too hard and the province of white males so they must be bad.



There is a push now from some sectors, to drop testing that benchmark students, to a standard format. When will this madness end?
Aldi stores around my area sell out of maths books when they are on special.
I've just bought three great books on ebay (they are no longer in print), to continue helping the grandson when he goes to high school, I used them 40 years ago but have since lost them.   Ebay magic online junk shop.😂









						Change of direction for NAPLAN campaign
					

The Industrial Court’s order in January that the Union should drop its directive against NAPLAN does not end the QTU’s campaign to end NAPLAN in its current form - it merely turns it in another




					www.qtu.asn.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The looney Left have got into schools and Universities and sent them woke because Maths and Science are too hard and the province of white males so they must be bad.



And yet the sad thing is, it ought to be the opposite.

Math is one of those things that doesn't depend on your background or upbringing, it doesn't depend on genetics and it's not subject to opinion. It's wrong or right, simple as that and it's the perfect opportunity for an individual to prove themselves.

If the black woman gets it right, and the white man gets it wrong, well there's no argument. Math is math, it's factual not a matter of someone's opinion and it's one of the few things where individual performance can be assessed in a truly objective manner. It's as good as it gets in terms of busting through discrimination and prejudice.

Unlike rather a lot of other school subjects where any assessment is at least somewhat subjective. Art, sports, music, cooking, even a lot of language-related things it's difficult to perform a purely objective assessment whereas with math it's dead simple to do so. 

Those seeking equality ought to outright love it for that reason. That they seemingly don't is quite bizarre really.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> And yet the sad thing is, it ought to be the opposite.
> 
> Math is one of those things that doesn't depend on your background or upbringing, it doesn't depend on genetics and it's not subject to opinion. It's wrong or right, simple as that and it's the perfect opportunity for an individual to prove themselves.
> 
> ...




If I may ask, you are in a technical profession, what is the proportion of females in it ?

Of the ones that you have encountered, what is your assessment of their competence ?


----------



## Humid (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think all parties are to blame, the disgraceful state of our education system can be laid at the feet of both parties, one for underfunding and the other for dismantling the standard. IMO
> One just has to check how many pollies come from a teaching or law background.











						Disadvantage accelerates as private school funding rises six times public schools over the decade - Michael West
					

By 2029 public schools will be underfunded by $60 billion; private schools overfunded by $6 billion - with huge costs to society as a result




					www.michaelwest.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> And yet the sad thing is, it ought to be the opposite.
> 
> Math is one of those things that doesn't depend on your background or upbringing, it doesn't depend on genetics and it's not subject to opinion. It's wrong or right, simple as that and it's the perfect opportunity for an individual to prove themselves.
> 
> ...



The problem is that maths is a difficult subject for some and isn't a pre requisite for teaching as far as I know, so it becomes a negative feedback loop, the basics aren't taught eg multiplication tables which are a basic building block.
Therefore the next step up becomes difficult, the next step up after that becomes impossible to comprehend and so on it goes.
The teachers union has a lot of clout in the Labor party and the media left wing, the only way this will be sorted is when teaching again becomes a calling, not just a high paid job with three months holidays a year.









						Australian students slip in global maths, reading and science rankings
					

A worldwide study of more than half a million 15-year-olds shows Australian students lag 3.5 years behind their Chinese counterparts in maths — and their performance in all three major subjects is in long-term decline.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						'Culture wars' warning over curriculum review
					

Teachers warn of a culture war after Christopher Pyne announces a back-to-basics curriculum review.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

Humid said:


> Disadvantage accelerates as private school funding rises six times public schools over the decade - Michael West
> 
> 
> By 2029 public schools will be underfunded by $60 billion; private schools overfunded by $6 billion - with huge costs to society as a result
> ...



That will probably accelerate as more parents send their kids to private schools, as the public school outcomes both academically and socially fall further and further behind.
By the way, the public schools get more taxpayers money than the private schools, when it comes to funding, it is the way the article is written to confuse the plebs. Just to put it in context.
It is a bit like using a suppressed zero graph, to exaggerate a greater outcome, or give a misleading representation . 









						Australian government funding for private schools still growing faster than for public
					

Productivity Commission says spending on private students rose 3.3% per year over decade compared with 1.4% for public




					www.theguardian.com
				



From the article:
_All levels of government now spend a total of $16,748 per student per year on average. *Public school students receive a higher level of government funding, $19,328 if capital costs are included or $16,399 if excluded, compared with $11,813 for non-government schools.
Between 2017-18 and 2018-19 the federal government spent $116 more per student per year for those in the public system, but $336 more for those in the non-government system.

The states and territories, the primary funders of the public system, boosted government schools by $412 per student per year, compared with just $33 more tipped in to non-government schools*_.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If I may ask, you are in a technical profession, what is the proportion of females in it ?
> 
> Of the ones that you have encountered, what is your assessment of their competence ?



I've never tallied up numbers but in my working life I've always been in a predominantly but not totally male environment.

As for competency, well sheer numbers of people will skew it somewhat but I'll say that the only truly incompetent people I've ever worked with, who are not doing that sort of work now by the way, were all male.

I think there's a bit of a natural barrier there. Someone won't succeed if they're female / male in a predominantly male / female occupation and if they know they're no good probably won't even try. The "boys club" approach has no chance of working in that situation, it can't possibly, so it keeps the duds out who might otherwise get somewhere through aggression and so on if they were the majority gender in that environment.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've never tallied up numbers but in my working life I've always been in a predominantly but not totally male environment.
> 
> As for competency, well sheer numbers of people will skew it somewhat but I'll say that the only truly incompetent people I've ever worked with, who are not doing that sort of work now by the way, were all male.
> 
> I think there's a bit of a natural barrier there. Someone won't succeed if they're female / male in a predominantly male / female occupation and if they know they're no good probably won't even try. The "boys club" approach has no chance of working in that situation, it can't possibly, so it keeps the duds out who might otherwise get somewhere through aggression and so on if they were the majority gender in that environment.




There seems to be a move by the looney Left to get the numbers of women increased in certain disciplines like Maths and Science.

While I think that women in general have the aptitude to do anything that men can do I question whether equal numbers of boys and girls are interested in particular areas.

No barriers should be put in the way of anyone with aptitude following their chosen career path, but to expect equal outcomes in particular areas discounts that men and women have different thought processes and aren't necessarily interested in the same things.

If there is a "glass ceiling" then it should be removed, but the numbers should be allowed to settle at their natural levels on merit rather than trying to enforce gender equality  because some gender warriors don't like the numbers.


----------



## Humid (9 April 2021)

Well i figured I will might as well shift the Scomo thread over her to stop the confusion for a couple of blokes


----------



## sptrawler (9 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> There seems to be a move by the looney Left to get the numbers of women increased in certain disciplines like Maths and Science.
> 
> While I think that women in general have the aptitude to do anything that men can do I question whether equal numbers of boys and girls are interested in particular areas.
> 
> ...



You really have brought an interesting premise Rumpy, my other half is bloody smart as compared to me, she won a comonwealth schollarship for year 11-12, I left school at 15 and did an apprenticeship.
My now deceased father in law was a headmaster, yet he wouldn't commit to fund my wife to go to uni, because he said women (meaning my wife want to have children and build a nest), I offered to fund her uni but she declined.
Then we married and travel went out the window, uni went out the window and we had four kids, after they grew up the wife wanted to go to uni. Fine so after a degree in nursing(which she had already done hospital based), it was a post graduate degree in business, which was fine I thought run a C class hospital magic.
No, that isn't what interests me, i want to be a vet, so that's another 4 years at uni to be paid for WTF.
I said o.k, i'll take a loan and we will buy a vet practice, while I'm working, then it's an income when we retire. She wasn't happy with that.
I hope the next generation of boys, don't have the same personal expectation of carrying the load, that my generation had. 😂


----------



## sptrawler (9 April 2021)

Humid said:


> Well i figured I will might as well shift the Scomo thread over her to stop the confusion for a couple of blokes



The problem is Humid, you think bagging is justifiable criticism, when it isn't.
Basically it is just slagging, if it can't stand up to critique, it is just like Scomo saying Albo is a dick, someone will say why?
You seem to struggle to come up with supporting evidence for your blind faith in Labor, just give us something to cling to, other than your dislike of the Liberals.
It would be so much easier on everyone, if you could IMO.


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## Humid (9 April 2021)

Now you mention Scomo in the Labor thread


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## Humid (9 April 2021)

Are you lonely SP


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## sptrawler (10 April 2021)

Humid said:


> Are you lonely SP



No sunshine, I have four lovely kids and eight lovely grandkids, still married after 45 years, how are you going?
Actually today one of the grandkids caught his first fish under the Mandurah bridge today, but we threw it back, it's easier to buy something that has already been caught, we told him. lol
How are you going increasing Australia's population? married? kids? grandkids? or just telling everyone how it should be?


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