# Degrees



## Flying Fish (25 October 2007)

A friend's kids are approaching the age. Should they become tradespeople, or professionals? What sort of schooling is happening nowdays?

Anyone out there with kids who are about 15-18? How do you mentor them?


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## tech/a (25 October 2007)

Well Im a tradie.
Son is a Doctor of Physics.
Daughter--well shes flat out being a 22 yr old princes.

You know the best advice I have heard for anyone in a position such as those you mention is this.

*(1) "Become an Expert at something,it doesnt matter much what it is you become an expert at,but when you are people who want what your expert in will beat a road to your door."*

I would add.

*(2) "Do something you love,something that stirs passion,you'll be a longtime doing it".*

Being in the Building Industry I can tell you Labourers are on $25/hr at 22
Trades are $35+ on wages and Subbies well---$60-100/hr if and when you can get them.Demand for trades has never been any different in the 30 yrs Ive been in it.

But See 2 above.


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## Stan 101 (25 October 2007)

great points you bring up, Tech.

A trade is a great opportunity to entering small business. In this current envoiroment, many people are deciding on 2 or 3 different careers. I suppose as long as you are still aquiring skills, you can't go too far wrong..


Cheers,


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## jtb (25 October 2007)

FF,

Obviously it depends on the kids (male/female also imo) but I would recommend a trade, straight of school, as it gets them into the world, they hopefully learn the value of a dollar and they can also fall back on it later if things go pear shaped.

Not having done a trade out of school for various reasons (Did complete TEE though) and having accrued various qualifications throughout my working life I think that a degree is best left until the individual has a bit more wisdom in the way of the world (particularly if they are going to be paying for it).
Obviously for those of us that know what they want to do at 17 (uni, trade, extreme motorcyclist etc) then this can be disregarded.

Although holding a cert III, IV and a Diploma in various things- @ 35 I'm presently also working towards a BSc as my career path would be limited without it.

As most of us would know 10-15 years after starting our working life you are in a very different position than you thought you would be @ 16


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## dutchie (25 October 2007)

G'day Flying Fish

Generally speaking the more formal education you have the more doors available.

PS I'm biased.

Cheers

Dutchie


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## nizar (25 October 2007)

tech/a said:


> Well Im a tradie.
> Son is a Doctor of Physics.
> Daughter--well shes flat out being a 22 yr old princes.
> 
> ...




Agree with tech/a.

Formal education in my opinion is very overrated. Yet there are so many people that think having a degree makes you "educated".

It may give you a better starting point but thats all it gives you. The rest is upto you. If you look at the most successful people in each field there is probably a split right down the middle, half of them have degrees and the others dont.

Just my opinion


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## tech/a (26 October 2007)

When Son received his BSc,I asked why he wanted to go on and get his Doctorate.

"Dad a job which requires a BSc will have 50 BSc grads going for it,5 or so Masters and 1 if your lucky Doctorate. Which do you think they'd be most interested in?"----Good point.

What he didn't realize is that Employers who need Doctors of Physics know where they're studying and when they're in "The Market"---become an expert.

*But for the Less educated among us.*

Rather than investing in a house or in shares here's a *hint.*

Learn how to operate an excavator.
Find where they are most needed (There is a chronic shortage of machines and operators).
Then go and buy one ($200K).
Hire rate for a machine say a 30 tonner $125/Hr
Go buy an attachment for it. (Rock Breaker,Drill Rig,Compaction Plate)
$30K an attachment.
Hrly rate goes to $180/hr.

*So would you rather *pay off a $200K TAX DEDUCTIBLE LOAN which generates $150/hr or try and do the same on a $200K house loan!!

Become an expert.


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## Sean K (26 October 2007)

Wife might not have got her job here if she didn't have an MBA in International Business. To be employed as an expat you need to have skills the locals don't. The MBA sealed it. Plus, her last employer paid for it anyway.


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## surfingman (26 October 2007)

All depends on what you feel like you will be happy doing, I started off by completing an apprenticeship got sick of working physically and decided I would like to be out of the sun and in some air conditioning, went to uni at 24 and will be finished my Business Degree in 3 or 4 weeks, will do a master of commerce starting next year which will take another 3 years just to get ahead of the pack..

I have no regrets with what i done, I wouldn't be to concerned which direction your kids go in, there is some very good money out there for majority of jobs if your good at them.


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## Ageo (26 October 2007)

Sorry guys but i left in Yr10 and thats about it. Self taught pretty much everything i learnt today (in terms of business/investing etc..). Not recommended but i was hard headed. Lost 10s of thousands through investment which would have given other young kids a heart attack but i knew i had to loose sometime and it might aswell be in the beginning. So would i recommend an education? of course as for a higher education depends on what they want to be as pieces of paper might get you into the door but it wont make you good at a job. 

Enjoy what your doing and 95% most likely you will excel in that.


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## Sean K (26 October 2007)

I'd recommend uni just for the social skills it develops.

Including:

Toga parties
Pajama parties
O week
Taking advantage of first years
Boat races
Working on the weekends
Partying during the week
End of year balls
Doing so much with so little money

The list is endless.....

Live your youth. Part of that these days, is uni.


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## surfingman (26 October 2007)

kennas said:


> I'd recommend uni just for the social skills it develops.
> 
> Including:
> 
> ...




 Thats a great point Kennas, you have to remember the International culture that one gets Swedish, Canadian and American just to name a few...


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## nizar (26 October 2007)

It really depends what you want to do.

If you want a career that requires a degree to become registered as a professional before you can practice, well then obviously you need to get a degree.

If its not neccessary to get a degree, then its just a choice if you want to study for a few years before working or if you want to work from the beginning and usually there are several issues that come into play here such as parental pressure, socioeconomic status,etc.

I was reading in a book (cant remember which one it was) which quoted a former CEO of Bear Stearns saying that they don't look for MBAs when hiring, and that he personally preferred people that were poor, driven and motivated because they were the sort of people that built the company. And there are usually plenty of these types, because all the other companies are busy hunting down the MBAs.

And I was reading this study which said that there is plenty of evidence showing the benefits of a bachelors degree in terms of average salary compared to those without one. But the evidence of the benefits of a Masters degree is conflicting. And the example was given. To get an MBA basically it costs $200,000. The average salary of those getting one was $70,000. So two years of lost salary is $140,000 plus the programs usually cost at least $60,000 (I realise sometimes or probably mostly they are employer sponsored).

So thats $200,000. And the guy was saying with that money instead of getting an MBA you could start your own business. If it works out then great you've made it. If not, well you probably would've learnt more from the business experience than from an MBA anyway.

That said, I think MBAs are great. Just being in a classroom full of smart people who could potentially become the world leaders of business tomorrow. Some valuable connections if you play your cards right


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## Mumbank (26 October 2007)

I have two children:  a son 19yo living and working as trainee in HR in IT industry in Sydney - having a ball, earning good money, will pick up some qualification along the way then go to Uni if and when he knows which area he wants to head in.  In Year 11 and 12 wanted to do an IT degree, topped his IT class couldn't get enough UAI to get into that degree because his English let him down (go figure).  Decided to have a year off and work and has fallen on his feet coz he went looking and had part time experience in sales (retail).  Also has gift of gab and miles of confidence which helps.

A 17yo daughter just started year 12, want to do Medicine (has the brains to do it). Not sure whether she will get it coz its so tough. She is looking at alternatives. Presently working in a smick restaurant part time and loves that, loves the people contact.  Who knows what she will really do come time to make the real choice.  I just hope she doesn't spend 5 or 6 years studying medicine or something similar to discover what we know - the health system is a shocker!

I am not sure that every kid needs to head straight into uni from Year 12 particularly if they are not sure what they want to do. Uni is very expensive now and I think the figure of drop outs or course changes is about 70% so that's a lot of wasted HECS.

Perhaps they should have a year off, try a trade, try another job (step up from part time) and really get to live a little, earn a little and see if they get some idea of what they really want to do. 

As Paul Hogan said Its better to be a happy plumber than a miserable lawyer!


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## nizar (26 October 2007)

kennas said:


> I'd recommend uni just for the social skills it develops.
> 
> Including:
> 
> ...




True.

The kick back lifestyle of no pressure and responsibilities is something that will be missed.


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## Prospector (26 October 2007)

It is my youngest child's last day at school today!  Schooling and private school fees about to finish after 18 years for all the kids.  I dare not think about the hundreds of thousands of $$$ spent.

I agree with Tech, they must follow their passion, but the more education this passion requires the better. Although I have counselled the youngest that sometimes the money making career can fund the passion one as a hobby!

He went to the Uni a few weeks ago; I think he rather liked the ambience!

Now, all we need to get through is Year 12 exams , and then, schoolies


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## Sean K (26 October 2007)

nizar said:


> True.
> 
> The kick back lifestyle of no pressure and responsibilities is something that will be missed.



Yes, golden years for me. 


I do agree with go for your passion whatever that is. Unfortunately, IMO, most 17/18 years olds don't have clue what they really want.

Uni, or a gap year travelling, can assist in the decision making.


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## prawn_86 (26 October 2007)

Apply for uni but then take a gap year.

Gives you so many experiences and allows you time to decide what it is you really want to do.

I personally got sick of just working, hence why i returned to go back to uni. but if you find something you like along the way you can always not accept your uni place.


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## nioka (26 October 2007)

Mumbank said:


> As Paul Hogan said Its better to be a happy plumber than a miserable lawyer!




I had a plumber in to do a job recently. His charges were above the charges I get from a lawyer?


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## tech/a (26 October 2007)

Frankly I'd change Lawyers.

Gap years can turn into termination years.
While I agree go enjoy yourself why not do that in the 3 mth Xmas Break!


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## nizar (26 October 2007)

tech/a said:


> Frankly I'd change Lawyers.
> 
> Gap years can turn into termination years.
> While I agree go enjoy yourself why not do that in the 3 mth Xmas Break!




Yeh I agree here.

I know guys that took a year off uni, then it quickly became 2 years, then 3, etc.

They never went back. The lure of the buck.
For a couple of them, it was the right thing to do. One of them now owns a trucking business and is very successful. But there are probably are others that do end up regretting it at some point.

And those 3 month summer breaks are the best. Its so long, you even forget that you actually go to uni.


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## nioka (26 October 2007)

tech/a said:


> Frankly I'd change Lawyers.




Why? He charges me less than the plumber and has not let me down , ever, and I have been with him for a long time and have given him a few curly ones.


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## GreatPig (26 October 2007)

I tend to agree with Tech on both points.

Do something you love doing, because typically you might be doing it for 40+ years and that's a long time to be miserable!

And become an expert at something, if for no other reason than it teaches you how to become an expert at something. If your passion is strong enough then this won't be an issue, but higher education can help with the ability to study, learn, and research by yourself.

And as Kennas said, it can also be a lot of fun! (between exams of course)

Also, it's worth remembering that nothing is ever set in concrete. Just because you have a doctorate in physics doesn't mean you can't later be a used car salesman. A colleague of mine at university who was studying for his doctorate these days is a full-time member of the Salvation Army, and another guy I know with an electrical engineering degree is an outdoors instructor teaching rockclimbing and the like, when he's not off skiing somewhere.

Cheers,
GP


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## ROE (26 October 2007)

tech/a said:


> When Son received his BSc,I asked why he wanted to go on and get his Doctorate.
> 
> "Dad a job which requires a BSc will have 50 BSc grads going for it,5 or so Masters and 1 if your lucky Doctorate. Which do you think they'd be most interested in?"----Good point.
> 
> ...




Too simplistic... There is no competition? There is no down turn? 
You like to go up against the big boys ... like operator a mum&dad fruit and veg shop and compete with Woolies


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## patrick (26 October 2007)

Good thread its a pretty tough time trying to decide wot ur going to do once you leave school and in the end it has to be your decision.

I finished a advertising/ film degree mid year but the lure of great pay and great holidays has sucked me in to doing a 3 month TAFE course to get onto the oil rigs. 

If you dont know wot u want to do at uni then i belieive in gap years.I didnt know wot i wanted 2do so i started a science/ commerce degree straight out of school and ended up burnt out and failing by the end of my first and then i decided i had to take some time off studies. 

Saying all of this, most of my best mates left school and started trades and they now work on the mines and rigs (I live in Perth) for 100k plus with great holidays. They all own houses and as soon as they get sick of the job they quit and jet set off around the world to Europe, Indo, South America where ever and come back to a better paying position.

Finally one thing i will recommend is dont go into hospitality! I am currently working as a waiter and you have to go through to many years of s**t from chefs, bosses and customers to get the experience you need to start your own business. To add to that its a very competitive industry and a lot of resturants struggle to survive there first few years.


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## YOUNG_TRADER (26 October 2007)

Well I'm just finishing my double degree in Finance and Law and all I can say is that its a joke that'll I'll get the degree,

I never went to class, lectures or tutorials, I barley read the materials, all I did is cram for exams (what I should be doing right now) and that has got me by. I worked full time for the first 3 years of the degree and have traded full time for the last 3 years of the degree.

I love investing, property development and running your own business, accordingly I have a finger in each of these pies (well probably 2 hands in investing).

I'm a firm believer in doing what you enjoy, lifes too short

Well thats my 2c, now off to cram for exams


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## KIWIKARLOS (26 October 2007)

i started off after yr 12 doing elect apprenticship then work paid for my extra study TAFE and UNI degree, they gave me time off each week and full time employment with a pay check. I preferred this way cause i was making money and studying at the same time with good job security and all the time was adding up for my long service leave and career progression.

One thing im sure of is that yr 12 is almost a must these days even for apprenticeships.

Another interesting fact most people i know that have done law / accounting degrees work twice the hours i do for almost half the pay ! The companies make them work their ass off for a prospect of becoming a partner etc and even then if they do go that far they are still working 60 hour weeks.

I say no thanks i still to 9 day fortnight / 36 hr week. 

Also many friends / family that have done law degrees only work in law for a short time before getting over it and following other interests.


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## tech/a (26 October 2007)

*ROE*

Actually I'm speaking from experience.
We have 5 excavators (My Company).
Thats why I own them couldnt get good plant and operators they were always too busy doing their work---still are.
Ive been in the building industry 28 yrs.
In that time its never been any different.
The "Big Boys" are constantly looking for good plant and operators.
Demand has never lagged (For good plant and operators).
If you constantly fear down turns you'll never take advantage of booms.
27 yrs and still going.

You dont fight or take on the "Big Boys" you become an asset.

Sometimes the most simplistic is passed by as exactly that.
As Ive always said humans have this capacity to think that the more complex something is the more likely it is to have benifit---when infact its more often than not the exact opposite.


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## nizar (26 October 2007)

GreatPig said:


> *Do something you love doing, because typically you might be doing it for 40+ years and that's a long time to be miserable!*
> 
> And become an expert at something, if for no other reason than it teaches you how to become an expert at something. If your passion is strong enough then this won't be an issue, but higher education can help with the ability to study, learn, and research by yourself.
> 
> ...




I was about to disagree with first statement because people can and do change careers all the time.

But you redeemed yourself with the last paragraph.


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## Smurf1976 (26 October 2007)

Two points really.

1. Do what you enjoy. Not what someone else thinks you ought to do.

2. Whatever you do, *do it well*.

If you like paperwork and arguing about things then don't become a plumber. Try law instead.

If you like tinkering with mechanical things, don't become a lawyer, doctor or chef. Try mechanical or electrical trades instead.

A few experiences I've had ought to make the point. One was working on the street (literally) when someone (pedestrian) complained about the traffic flow. "I'm a doctor..." he screamed. 

Great. He's a doctor. If someone has a heart attack or gets run over then he'll be handy. But clearly he knew NOTHING about traffic management - everything was done in accordance with the law, by people who were qualified to do it and there wasn't an apparent problem anyway. 

Having a medical degree means you ought to know lots about all things medical. That's great. But it doesn't make you an expert on _anything_ else.

Another one that comes to mind is the wealthiest person I know. She planned on going to uni and doing an economics degree (not sure the exact name of the degree). Ended up working as a stripper instead and as she puts it, now has to worry about managing her own fortune rather than forecasting what might happen to someone else's.

Her strategy was pretty simple. She soon realised that most of the competition either didn't have the brains or were too busy applying them to the degree they were working to fund. So she applied her mind to the job instead and soon learnt how to get the audience opening their wallets. All it required was to be better than the competition.

That comes down to aiming to be the best at what you do regardless of what it is that you are doing. There's money to be made in practically any line of work for those willing to fully apply themselves to the task.

At the age of 27 she bought out the entire business assets of her former employer. 

Whatever you do, do it well. Don't be the waiter who doesn't even know what's on the plate. Be the one who's getting repeat business for the restaurant through truly excellent service. 

Another one is an apprentice where I work. Doing _very_ well on the job and far more responsible than is normally expected of a 2nd year apprentice. Hence the 23% pay rise.


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## Whiskers (26 October 2007)

YOUNG_TRADER said:


> Well I'm just finishing my double degree in Finance and Law and all I can say is that its a joke that'll I'll get the degree,
> 
> I never went to class, lectures or tutorials, I barley read the materials, all I did is cram for exams (what I should be doing right now) and that has got me by. I worked full time for the first 3 years of the degree and have traded full time for the last 3 years of the degree.
> 
> ...




I think I can relate to you YT.

I sat the exam and won a scholarship to further my ed in high school, despite the fact that I just had a serious eye injury. I just wasn't motivated to further my ed at the time. So I finished school at 15 and worked long hours as a supervisor in the construction industry for a number of years, before I decided to make a lifestyle change and start my own business so I could be home more often with my young family. 

I did my Bus Admin degree majoring in accounting and law later than many as an external student, because it had relevance to what I was doing. I didn't have internet at the time and often visited the uni computer lab at night to hurridly do research and assignments. I was amazed when I was informed that I was in the top 15% of students and invited into The Golden Key Honour Society. My first response was that my class must have been a pretty dumb lot : , but after some time it occured to me that it was just the passion and commitment to push one self to achieve your goal.

My daughter had a passion for teaching. She graduated in the top 15% and got her Golden Key too. My son was not real excited about education at school. He liked the hands on outdoors and is a plumber in very high demand. Who knows, he might go for a degree later too.

So, I'm with those who say go with your passion. But don't be afraid to make career and or lifestyle changes if you loose the desire to do what you are doing. Especially don't think that you can't pick up a degree later in life.


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## disarray (26 October 2007)

depends what social circles you want to move in as well.

get a trade you'll be blue collar and generally associate with other blue collar people at work / on the job etc. go to uni and you'll associate more with professionals and office people. different working cultures, gender mixes, social events and so on.

skilled tradesmen and professionals will always be well paid because they are good at what they do.


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## imajica (26 October 2007)

I personally believe that if I hadn't gone to uni and obtained that first class honours degree (and dip ed)
I wouldn't be where I am today - earning six figures!
On the other hand, if you are good at a trade you can also earn big bucks!

Remember, its not just about financial security - you have to enjoy what you do - without job satisfaction, the money loses its sparkle.


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## Whiskers (26 October 2007)

imajica said:


> Remember, its not just about financial security - you have to enjoy what you do - without job satisfaction, the money loses its sparkle.




My sentiments exactly, I took an income cut for a better lifestyle.


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## prawn_86 (26 October 2007)

I agree with YT, uni is ridiculosly easy.

I do nothing and still get very good grades. 

In a way i wish i wasnt at uni, ut i know i need the qualification to achieve my goals so i'll stick to it, and continue to try and further my knowledge outside of uni too.


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## Prospector (26 October 2007)

YOUNG_TRADER said:


> Well I'm just finishing my double degree in Finance and Law and all I can say is that its a joke that'll I'll get the degree,
> 
> I never went to class, lectures or tutorials, I barley read the materials, all I did is cram for exams (what I should be doing right now) and that has got me by. I worked full time for the first 3 years of the degree and have traded full time for the last 3 years of the degree.




So maybe karma time for you will not be when you get your degree but when someone comes to you looking for legal advice and you won't know diddly squat? :

I worked damn hard at Uni; as did my partner (although his surfboard beckoned a few too many times) and first son too, put in a great effort.  Maybe your courses are too easy?


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## Surfer35 (26 October 2007)

Sorry Prospector, YT is right.

I am currently working in the structured finance team of a Magic Circle firm in Tokyo, having also worked in top tier firms in London and Sydney.

I hold a BA, LLB and LLM from supposedly Australia's best law faculty.

I did bugger all at uni and spent most of my time in the surf, cramming when I had to, and received straight distinctions. I did this studying a full-time load while working full-time. Uni is not hard, it's ridiculously easy.

And there'll be no bad karma for YT as all the law qualifications in the world do not prepare you for practice, only practice does.

The only bad karma is the fact that you are surrounded by lawyers.


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## dumpty (29 October 2007)

Forget trades and uni....tell them to become a professional sports person.......earn $200 to $500 k per years for 10 to 12 years.........make all the connections they want.........even holmes acourt loves bunnies.....buy a bit of realestate.......teach them trading......

the rest is a gimmie.


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## Smurf1976 (29 October 2007)

Whiskers said:


> My sentiments exactly, I took an income cut for a better lifestyle.



Working to live versus living to work.


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## Aerosky (29 October 2007)

Surfer35 said:


> Sorry Prospector, YT is right.
> 
> I am currently working in the structured finance team of a Magic Circle firm in Tokyo, having also worked in top tier firms in London and Sydney.
> 
> ...




I'll agree to a point with Surfer35. 

Uni is not that hard however its not that easy either. If you want all HD's then you be puting a lot more effort.

I'm currently studing a double degree in Aerospace Engineering and Busness Management and enjoying every part of it.  I see some very smart people in my classes however most of them dont have fun in there life. they are very enclosed people with NO personal skills and no comen sence (they only know what lecturer is talking about). you can hardly talk to them. 
My view on this is: Got to have the right balance. Even though this people get HD's i dont see them geting employed and being seccessful in life or living a happy life.


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## theasxgorilla (29 October 2007)

Surfer35 said:


> And there'll be no bad karma for YT as all the law qualifications in the world do not prepare you for practice, only practice does.




It's not bad karma per se, often just reality that for every subject you crammed or managed to con an exemption for there is potentially going to be  one area of knowledge you will need to compensate for later on.  That might come in the form of a few late nights and cancelled social appointments, or it might not even come at all, since there is nothing which says that what you were supposed to study is what you are later going to required to apply.  Most people agree that university is typically a mixture of building a foundation of knowledge and competencies and  proving that you have the ability to learn.

For those pondering the question of to-degree or not-to-degree, I would say that in certain circles in Australia it is possible to be degree-less and still be merited based on your past performances or ability to demonstrate potential.  In other circles it is just plain unreal to expect to be taken seriously if you do not have a degree.  Law, accounting and architecture are a handful of the latter.

In various overseas markets I've noticed this degree/no-degree distinction to by more definite.  And then of course you have the 'which university' distinction, in which case the worth of your degree exists on another type of sliding scale.  And how well does the degree you did match the university you attended?  Reputation and image can mean a lot.  Like it or not, it's reality.

Australia is rather unique in the sense that it is merited in many circles to demonstrate that you were able to build a business and invest well and make good money without the superfluous fluff of needing to be involved in the higher-education system.  You have very famous Aussies like Kerry Packer who are well known for such throw away comments as (paraphrasing), "university is good place for people to go who don't know what they want to do with their lives".  We Aussies LOVE to hear this kind of thing because it reaffirms that we can get rich without needing to become all high-brow.  It's not by accident that our prime minister in the 80's was famous being in the Guiness Book of Records for drinking the fastest yard glass.  A large part of the population WANTS this identify ie. world-class leader and 'larikan'...highly competent and down to earth. 

Keep in mind that a lot of other parts of the world value higher education much more than this.  And one of the best ways to advance your career and make a lot of money as a professional is to go and work overseas (this is less the case in many parts of the world just now because the AUD is worth so much and wages are rising here, so financially speaking it can actually be better to stay at home!).  I believe that the rest of the world appreciates that most Australian's are competent and willing to roll up their sleeves and get on and do the work and have a straight talking approach to business.  

Unfortunately you will also find that you have to overcome all of the stereotypes that Australian tourism has promoted to the world from Paul Hogan to Steve Irwin and of course our beer swilling ex-Prime Minister, Bob Hawke.  One of the fastest ways to overcome these stereotypes is to have a respected degree and qualifications.

For some interesting insight into what kind of professions and businesses are likely to be valuable in a country like Australia in the future I believe it's worth reading "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman.

My .


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## tech/a (29 October 2007)

Aerosky said:


> I'll agree to a point with Surfer35.
> 
> Uni is not that hard however its not that easy either. If you want all HD's then you be *puting* a lot more effort.
> 
> ...




Your either of ethnic origin (and as such could be excused for some of the language errors).
OR
The education system for our brightest is crapp.


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## imajica (29 October 2007)

Aerosky said:


> I'll agree to a point with Surfer35.
> 
> Uni is not that hard however its not that easy either. If you want all HD's then you be puting a lot more effort.
> 
> ...






As an English teacher I am absolutely horrified when people torture the English language !


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## theasxgorilla (29 October 2007)

tech/a said:


> Your either of ethnic origin (and as such could be excused for some of the language errors).
> OR
> The education system for our brightest is crapp.




Dude dude dude, there is such a comment about glass houses due right about now.


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## moXJO (29 October 2007)

I'd get that uni degree and I've been a tradie for the last 17 or so years. If you are heading down that trade path at least start with a small business course. And aim for something more technical (electrician or plumbing) as you need to be licensed and other trades cant do it e.g. carpenters and plumbers can do metal roofing so you have more competition as a roofer. It can also depend on your location on just how much work you get and how far you have to travel.Those high fees are due to all the costs associated with being in a trade, and to cover yourself when times are tough. High chance of injuries or worse can occur on job sites even breathing asbestos by accident because of someone else’s negligence.And there are a vast number of tradies that only make $500 or less a week.

You can make very good money in a trade but a business course and good systems are a must. And if you think tradesman are unreliable try employing them.Uni degrees can open doors up all over the world. Needless to say I will be grooming the kids towards uni they can decide after that.


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## dutchie (29 October 2007)

Yaer Tech/a sumtimes ur spelin is shoking.


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## theasxgorilla (29 October 2007)

moXJO said:


> Needless to say I will be grooming the kids towards uni they can decide after that.




That's exactly what my old man did.  And so I stuck with where uni took me as a profession but I renovate houses for (sometimes) fun and profit.


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## dutchie (29 October 2007)

Seriously though, the most important factor (as a number of posters have stated) is that you are happy with the job you are doing. 

The other important factors are that you should never stop learning (formally and/or informally) and that it is never too late to change (to another job/career).

Cheers

Dutchie


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## theasxgorilla (29 October 2007)

dutchie said:


> The other important factors are that you should never stop learning (formally and/or informally) and that it is never too late to change (to another job/career).




This sounds nice to say and hear but the reality is that the more you invest in a career and the higher you climb the more difficult it becomes to walk away from what you've built to do something else.  You might think you can do it, but your wife and the children she represents might have something else to say about your ideas.  Sorry to be the snap-back to reality but I think it should be stated, better to try and get your decisions as close to _right_ as possible to first time...maybe that includes marrying appropriately


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## dutchie (29 October 2007)

I agree theasxgorilla it is hard to walk away from the security/responsibility/commitments etc that goes with having a family/mortgage etc.

Those factors, no doubt, make it harder to change jobs/careers but not impossible.

What use are you to your wife and children if you are unhappy with your work to the extent that it affects your health and the way you react with them. You and your family may have to change priorities.

It may be a case of short term pain for long term gain.

Cheers

Dutchie


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## tech/a (29 October 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> Dude dude dude, there is such a comment about glass houses due right about now.





Hey I agree.
But I didnt go to Uni and had limited education.Thank God for spell check.
But even I can spot those.


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## Prospector (29 October 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> Dude dude dude, there is such a comment about glass houses due right about now.





Doesn't crapp have two p's


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## dutchie (29 October 2007)

G'day Prospector

Only if your a great aussie swimmer (as in Loraine).


Cheers

Dutchie


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## tech/a (29 October 2007)

> (as in Loraine).




Love it seems a few have their own glass house problems.
*Lorraine*

Hahaha made my Day.


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## dutchie (29 October 2007)

Got me


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## prawn_86 (29 October 2007)

Isnt there a spelling a grammar thread for all you who want to bash it out? :


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## nizar (29 October 2007)

Aerosky said:


> I see some very smart people in my classes however most of them dont have fun in there life. they are very enclosed people with NO personal skills and no comen sence (they only know what lecturer is talking about). you can hardly talk to them.
> My view on this is: Got to have the right balance. Even though this people get HD's i dont see them geting employed and being seccessful in life or living a happy life.




Yeh I agree.

There are some people (in my course many) where all they do is study. Iv never figured it out, but Maybe they enjoy it?
Even after classes they go to the library till the wee hours.

BUT most of them are internationals maybe they aren't rich and paying top dollar to come here to study, so damn right they are gonna study lol.

But for me, I just take the kick back approach, only come when i have to (compulsory attendance) and the rest of the time if im not testing im reading something about trading or meeting up with friends (and teaching them how to trade lol). I do just enough to pass but i do reckon that cramming is the best way for exams. Studying any earlier than 2-3 weeks before and you end up forgetting it come exam time anyway


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## prawn_86 (29 October 2007)

I know that some people here are 'anti-cramming', but personally i also do it (dont we all  )

This is how i tell myself that it is alright...

In the workplace we are not ever going to have a deadline in which we cannot use any resources, so therefore it is not important to 'know' heaps of in depth knowledge.

it is important to know basic knowledge so you dont have to reasearch every little thing, but not know absolutely everything, which they want you to for an exam.

I personally think all exams should be open book, but made a lot harder.


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## dubiousinfo (29 October 2007)

moXJO said:


> I'd get that uni degree and I've been a tradie for the last 17 or so years. If you are heading down that trade path at least start with a small business course. And aim for something more technical (electrician or plumbing) as you need to be licensed and other trades cant do it e.g. carpenters and plumbers can do metal roofing so you have more competition as a roofer. It can also depend on your location on just how much work you get and how far you have to travel.Those high fees are due to all the costs associated with being in a trade, and to cover yourself when times are tough. High chance of injuries or worse can occur on job sites even breathing asbestos by accident because of someone else’s negligence.And there are a vast number of tradies that only make $500 or less a week.
> 
> You can make very good money in a trade but a business course and good systems are a must. And if you think tradesman are unreliable try employing them.Uni degrees can open doors up all over the world. Needless to say I will be grooming the kids towards uni they can decide after that.




There aren't any tradies in the building industry making only $500 per week.
About $1000 per week would be the minimum and many are making much more than that.


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## Aerosky (29 October 2007)

tech/a said:


> Hey I agree.
> But I didnt go to Uni and had limited education.*Thank God for spell check.*
> But even I can spot those.




And I can spot all your other spelling mistakes and trust me there is much worse once that you have made. By the sound of it your spelling mistakes have been made even with spell check. That’s a hard one to beat.

I’m only defending myself tech/a I’m not having a go at you but if you’re giving it, you mast take it as well. 

On other threads I have seen you get upset about other members paying out on you. If you hated that much why do you do it to others?

Anyway I’m proud of what I’m achieving and at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what you and the English teacher believe about  me and the education department.


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## Aerosky (29 October 2007)

tech/a said:


> Your either of ethnic origin (and as such could be excused for some of the language errors).
> OR
> The education system for our brightest is crapp.




And yes im form ETHNIC origin if that is a big issue tech/a.


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## tech/a (29 October 2007)

Aerosky said:


> And I can spot all your other spelling mistakes and trust me there is much worse once that you have made. By the sound of it your spelling mistakes have been made even with spell check. That’s a hard one to beat.
> 
> I’m only defending myself tech/a I’m not having a go at you but if you’re giving it, you mast take it as well.
> 
> ...




Your origin is not a problem to me thats why I mentioned it.
infact if I were even to attempt your Native language I'm certain I wouldnt do as well as you do with mine.
I dont mind getting a ribbing from others,adds to the discussion.
I'd have a beer with all of them.

Good onya.


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## wandering (29 October 2007)

My second post here 

I have a BSc from Flinders, Hons from Adelaide, MPhil from Griffith and a BEd from UQ. 

Ten years at university was not time wasted, but a lot of fun where I learned a lot. 

I am now teaching English in Korea.

w


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## Aerosky (29 October 2007)

Tech/a
I just get very defensive sometimes (but not upset). i just dont like when people look for errors in others. 
At the end of the day it’s all in good fun.


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## moXJO (29 October 2007)

dubiousinfo said:


> There aren't any tradies in the building industry making only $500 per week.
> About $1000 per week would be the minimum and many are making much more than that.




BS is all I have to say to that.


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## BlingBling (29 October 2007)

wandering said:


> My second post here
> 
> I have a BSc from Flinders, Hons from Adelaide, MPhil from Griffith and a BEd from UQ.
> 
> ...




I hope you've got a better job than just a conversation teacher! With all those qualifications you'd want to in a good Uni.
I'm from the school of no degrees, running my own school in Japan.. didn't go to uni for 10 years but have learnt alot from running my businesses!

I sit on the fence as to which is better.. Degree or Trade. I'll support my sons in what ever they decide to do.


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## theasxgorilla (29 October 2007)

Aerosky said:


> Tech/a
> I just get very defensive sometimes (but not upset). i just dont like when people look for errors in others.
> At the end of the day it’s all in good fun.




If tech/a attacks you personally it's because you just made him feel inadequate...being attacked is an almost impossible to perceive compliment.

I think a posters ethnic origins is of no relevance until it is.  In other words until a poster decides to make it so themselves.  We all benefit from having a rich mix of posters just like Australia benefits from having a rich mix of cultures.

But under no circumstances is it acceptable to make personal attacks.


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## tech/a (29 October 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> If tech/a attacks you personally it's because you just made him feel inadequate....




What the??

Another Duck Hunter.


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## dubiousinfo (31 October 2007)

moXJO said:


> I'd get that uni degree and I've been a tradie for the last 17 or so years. If you are heading down that trade path at least start with a small business course. And aim for something more technical (electrician or plumbing) as you need to be licensed and other trades cant do it e.g. carpenters and plumbers can do metal roofing so you have more competition as a roofer. It can also depend on your location on just how much work you get and how far you have to travel.Those high fees are due to all the costs associated with being in a trade, and to cover yourself when times are tough. High chance of injuries or worse can occur on job sites even breathing asbestos by accident because of someone else’s negligence.And there are a vast number of tradies that only make $500 or less a week.
> 
> You can make very good money in a trade but a business course and good systems are a must. And if you think tradesman are unreliable try employing them.Uni degrees can open doors up all over the world. Needless to say I will be grooming the kids towards uni they can decide after that.






dubiousinfo said:


> There aren't any tradies in the building industry making only $500 per week.
> About $1000 per week would be the minimum and many are making much more than that.






moXJO said:


> BS is all I have to say to that.





So tell me where all these tradies are in the building industry that are getting only $500 per week.

I know of at least 20 companies in Sydney alone that would give them a job tomorrow on double that.


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## tech/a (31 October 2007)

I'm in Adelaide and would do the same.
My labourers are on $850/week.
Site supervisors $1200
Machine operators $1000.


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## moXJO (31 October 2007)

dubiousinfo said:


> So tell me where all these tradies are in the building industry that are getting only $500 per week.
> 
> I know of at least 20 companies in Sydney alone that would give them a job tomorrow on double that.




I'll PM the companies too you. This isn’t some figure plucked from the air these are guys I know. They wanted consistent work and were sick of chasing it year in year out. Apparently you barely do any work with these companies which in effect turn good workers into lazy whiners when they have to put in effort again. They also knock off earlier in the afternoon.

A friend of mine actually went there after work got quiet last year. I was paying him around $1400-2k a week. It was demanding work though and had to travel. He is now sitting on $500 and they ruined his work ethic which is a pain. He has the opportunity to make $1.5k-$2k again but means traveling and staying at Canberra, this is through another guy I know. He tried it for a week and never went back. I have one of my workers down there and the work is very easy according too him.

So really it comes down to this if you don't want to travel ,or are sick of chasing work , sick of paying for insurances, tools or do not want the responsibility or have to work to hard then these companies will scoop you up.

Also a lot of subbies working for certain companies are only making a few hundred bucks after fuel , insurances , taxes , etc I'll provide a few examples in that pm if you like I don’t want too publicly bash companies.

Are you actually in the industry or are new to it??? because it’s obvious you are oblivious to what’s going on.


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## dubiousinfo (31 October 2007)

moXJO said:


> I'll PM the companies too you. This isn’t some figure plucked from the air these are guys I know. They wanted consistent work and were sick of chasing it year in year out. Apparently you barely do any work with these companies which in effect turn good workers into lazy whiners when they have to put in effort again. They also knock off earlier in the afternoon.
> 
> A friend of mine actually went there after work got quiet last year. I was paying him around $1400-2k a week. It was demanding work though and had to travel. He is now sitting on $500 and they ruined his work ethic which is a pain. He has the opportunity to make $1.5k-$2k again but means traveling and staying at Canberra, this is through another guy I know. He tried it for a week and never went back. I have one of my workers down there and the work is very easy according too him.
> 
> ...





What you describe above is firstly people who have gotten lazy. The lack of income has nothing to do with them being a tradesman. The opportunity for them to make far greater sums of money are all around them, they are aware of the opportunities and have the required skill, but have chosen another path. 

Nobody should discourage kids from becoming tradies because some in the industry dont choose to put in the effort.
Lazy doctors make very little money as well.

Making good making takes work and commitment regardless of whether you have a trade or professional qualifications.

Secondly, in regard to subbies, when they are not making money in the current enviroment they are not running their business correctly.

In the building industry its very easy for a tradesman to suddenly become a subbie, employ people and have a business. Although just because you are a good roofer does not mean you can run a subcontract roofing company well.

Many of the people who work as subcontractors, do it as a lifestyle choice. They prefer not to take orders from other people and are prepared to accept enormous risk for little more than a very good wage. However they are not prepared to put in the extra work to become good business people. The lack of understanding by many subbies of laws, contracts, risk and how to price risk, has always amazed me. Those things have to be learnt if you intend to run a successful business that will generate more income than just a very good wage.

As to me being in the industry. I have been in property and construction now for over 30 years in most states in Australia. I have a couple of trades as well as professional qualifications now and deal with developers, builders and subcontractors on a daily basis. I would think this level of experience allows me to speak from a fairly solid platform.


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## tech/a (31 October 2007)

Still in the "Industry" 30 yrs on, I have to agree with dubiuosinfo.
I reckon he's wide awake!

Everyone wants to make the big bucks but few are willing to put in the effort to be WORTH the $$s.


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## happytrader (31 October 2007)

Talking with an assistant in nursing the other week. Education required is a 6 month course. The girl pulls $1,000 per week in the hand with an agency. Of course this did include afew penalty shifts but as she said this was over double that of her previous career as a veterinary nurse where the level of knowledge and responsibility was huge.

She also told me she had absolutely no problem getting as many shifts as she liked. 

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Flying Fish (31 October 2007)

dubiousinfo said:


> What you describe above is firstly people who have gotten lazy. The lack of income has nothing to do with them being a tradesman. The opportunity for them to make far greater sums of money are all around them, they are aware of the opportunities and have the required skill, but have chosen another path.
> 
> Nobody should discourage kids from becoming tradies because some in the industry dont choose to put in the effort.
> Lazy doctors make very little money as well.
> ...




What trades may i ask? How long is an apprentiship? 3 years? What is the average degree  three  years? Have you spent 9 or ten years just training to get where you are ?


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## dubiousinfo (31 October 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> What trades may i ask? How long is an apprentiship? 3 years? What is the average degree  three  years? Have you spent 9 or ten years just training to get where you are ?




I have replied by PM


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## moXJO (1 November 2007)

tech/a said:


> Still in the "Industry" 30 yrs on, I have to agree with dubiuosinfo.
> I reckon he's wide awake!
> 
> Everyone wants to make the big bucks but few are willing to put in the effort to be WORTH the $$s.





Exactly if you want to make the money you need the proper training that means a business course if possible that’s trade specific early on.And most people do not know that when becoming self employed. Most guys get shaken out in the first few years. It has nothing to do with being lazy. I have known a lot of guys that were in the game for years that worked their hole out only to go bankrupt in their 50's.

You can make good money on wages but that depends on what city you live in, or if you are willing to travel.
If you work for a smaller company then consistency of work can be a problem. Then you have construction cycles to deal with. If you are self employed its a matter of chasing work then chasing money all the while watching that the builder doesn’t go broke and take you with him. I had one go bust on me last year lucky. I thought they were running their sites terribly so I always had the materials paid up front and then fast stage payments. The boss even asked my why I did things this way and I told him that he was heading for problems the way he was running things. Sure enough they went under and took guys for 100's of 1000's.

The original question was where were the tradies for $500(I did lie its $548 or there abouts) not why were they working for that much. And the list was provided.

Now discouraging kids from becoming tradies no, but letting them walk in with there eyes open and not ending up on the scrap heap yes. There are a range of things they need to know that you might now put down as common knowledge simply because you have been in the game so long.Heres a few off the top of my head.

*It can be dangerous, even the act of working all day in the sun
*You might have to travel a fair distance to earn good money
*You need to have your OHS sorted because workcover can fine you for just about anything
*Working for a smaller company can mean no work when the building cycle dips
*You only need a few people to stuff payments up when first starting out to put you under.
*Having thick skin if you’re an apprentice
*Consistency of work which is a big issue if you have a family or loans
*Being self employed doesn’t always mean being better off you need to keep those books in order and deal with cash flow
*The fact older guy’s backs knees and hips are shot

And the list goes on.Dont get me wrong there’s heaps of upside but it is not an easy ride as is made out. Things have been good for a long time. When I worked through the recession guys were having trouble left right and center. So it’s the bad times you have to prepare for if you’re in a trade and most do not.


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