# Queensland Floods



## Julia (29 December 2010)

I'm sure everyone is aware of the disaster that is affecting much of Queensland at present.  Much inconvenience for most of us, but huge loss for many whose homes and businesses have been inundated.

Reason for the thread is my utter disgust that Premier Anna Bligh, as a result of huge public pressure via the media, actually dragged herself back from holiday to swan about in a chopper today and declare open the "Flood Appeal", magnificently begun by the massive donation of the government of a whole $1 million!!!

How obscenely disgusting.   This paltry sum is probably less than is being spent with the fireworks in Brisbane on New Year's Eve.

No wonder she has an approval rating of about 27%.
It wouldn't even be that much if the opposition had anything to recommend them.


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## sails (29 December 2010)

Julia, I am just as disgusted hearing this on the news.  What a slap in the face.  And then looking for donations from already burdened tax payers...grrr

Have also heard that Ms Gillard has donated another million (hearsay only at this stage) - and yet Rudd is throwing billions of Aussie tax payers dollars around for overseas aid.  I would imagine if this same disaster had happened anywhere else in the world, Rudd would have been pledging millions - not just one.

What's wrong with labor government these days.  We've had labor in government before and I can't remember such unbelievable incompentence...


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2010)

Agree , any start up relief programme will need for than $2m.

More like $20m minimum. 

gg


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## Smurf1976 (29 December 2010)

Let's just hope that everyone is OK. Buildings can be fixed, lives can not.

As for governments, to be honest I really don't think it matters who is in power these days. Labor will do what they have just done. Liberal will mutter something about budgets and the market. Greens will blame a coal-fired power station somewhere for causing the disaster in the first place.

It's an unfortunate situation we have in this country with basically nowhere immune to floods and/or fires from time to time. We can't stop huge rainfalls in Qld extreme heat in Vic / SA but we need to be better prepared to respond when it happens. 

It's not as though there hasn't been huge damage and loss of life due to previous fires in Vic, Tas, SA etc and it's not as though Brisbane itself hasn't been flooded in the past. We know it will happen sooner or later, so we need to be prepared for when it does.

I'm not overly keen on big government, but rather than throwing my taxes away on all sorts of nonsense I'd like to see a national plan to cope with these events and for it to be properly resourced. Taking fires as an example, we're not likely to have the whole country burn to the ground in a single day so there's an obvious opportunity to share the more expensive equipment (such as those big water bombing helicopters) around between states. It might cost a bit, but it's one area of government spending that I doubt anyone would object to paying for.


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## sails (30 December 2010)

Flood victims to get $1m federal funding 



> THE federal government will match Queensland's $1 million donation to a fund to help victims of the floods devastating the state.




Wouldn't that amount only build a couple of tuckshops?...

So it's OK to waste billions on BER but too much to ask for the flood victims.  Oh that's right, just ask the public (who are already burdened with climbing electricity costs, mortgage payments and the thread of carbon taxes) to look after them.  

So would Gillard & Rudd rather be seen big noting themselves throwing millions around in overseas aid?

It appears they have nothing left in the kitty to look after our own affairs.


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## Logique (30 December 2010)

Neither floods nor bushfires are comprehensible to metropolitan Australia. Labor, without the benefit of the Nats in coalition, are clueless.

No money left anyway, all tied up in middle class welfare. Look for a 'working families' flood bonus. So much per child probably.


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## breaker (30 December 2010)

please read asylum immigrants thread 

I live in Clermont [google it]


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## Julia (30 December 2010)

breaker said:


> please read asylum immigrants thread
> 
> I live in Clermont [google it]




That's a bit cryptic, breaker.
How about just making a clear message?

Another suggestion I've heard is that the army should be called in to help in situations like this, rather than everything being left up to the overworked, voluntary people in the SES.

As with Sails' point about our governments being only too ready to remit massive aid overseas, they will also deploy our forces to assist, so perhaps applying both these resources a bit more generously at home would be useful.

Still can't get over the ****** one million dollars.
God, Anna, you probably have a clothing allowance of about that much.


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## Smurf1976 (30 December 2010)

An interesting list here  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disasters_in_Australia_by_death_toll

Looking just at bushfires alone (not including building fires, underground mine fires etc) it seems that there have been 6 fires which each killed more than 50 people within the past 71 years. 

2009, Victoria, 173 deaths
1983, Victoria and SA, 75 deaths
1939, Victoria, 71 deaths
1967, Tasmania (Hobart area), 62 deaths
1926, Victoria, 60 deaths
1943-44, Victoria, 51 deaths

Then add in the floods (only those resulting in more than 20 deaths shown here):

1852, NSW, 89 deaths
1916, Queensland, 65 deaths
1934, Victoria (Melbourne), 35 deaths
1955, NSW, 25 deaths
1929, Tasmania, 22 deaths

Then add in the cyclones and all sorts of other disasters as well as those which fortuntely didn't actually kill anyone.  THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN so we need to be properly prepared for when it does.


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## Ruby (30 December 2010)

Julia said:


> Reason for the thread is my utter disgust that Premier Anna Bligh, as a result of huge public pressure via the media, actually dragged herself back from holiday to swan about in a chopper today and declare open the "Flood Appeal", magnificently begun by the massive donation of the government of a whole $1 million!!!
> 
> How obscenely disgusting.   This paltry sum is probably less than is being spent with the fireworks in Brisbane on New Year's Eve.
> 
> ...




She disgusts me so much I don't like to get started.   She seems to be more concerned with her public image than anything else!



Logique said:


> Neither floods nor bushfires are comprehensible to metropolitan Australia.......




Not so, Logique......... I remember the horror of the 1974 floods in Brisbane when people had to be rescued of the roofs of their highset houses and food and medical supplies had to be airlifted into Jindalee......... when houses were knocked down like dominoes as the river broke its banks........and there was the very real threat of a large ship, broken from its moorings, being jammed across the Brisbane River, creating a dam.   It was a horrific time, but also a time when Brisbane people really pulled together.


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## Logique (30 December 2010)

Ruby said:


> ...Not so, Logique.... I remember the horror of the 1974 floods in Brisbane when people had to be rescued of the roofs of their highset houses....there was the very real threat of a large ship, broken from its moorings, being jammed across the Brisbane River, creating a dam.  It was a horrific time, but also a time when Brisbane people really pulled together.



Now that is a flood Ruby! You caught me out, too wide the generalization in making the point. 

Happy New Year to you. I hope my state is sending up some assistance to the flooded QLD'ers. Some floods of our own down here. Kyogle in northern NSW has been declared a disaster zone this week.


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## Calliope (30 December 2010)

Ruby said:


> It was a horrific time, but also a time when Brisbane people really pulled together.




Although our house went under, what I remember most is the wonderful community spirit. It overshadowed any hardships and made it a great time to be alive. One small thing I have not forgotten is that Sunbeam offered to repair for free any of their appliances that had water damage. Many other firms followed suit.

My employer (Telecom) sent out so many people to help us clean up that they got in the way.

I was one of the lucky ones. I had a War Service home and it was fully insured for flood damage. Most of my neighbors were not insured. People did not insure for "once in a 100 year" events.

Donations to the appeal from interstate were magnificent. I was glad to be able to reciprocate when Cyclone Tracy flattened Darwin on Xmas day in the same year.


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## Iggy_Pop (30 December 2010)

Rockhampton is still continuing to function, though bottled water milk and bread is nearly impossible to buy. Everyone is doing a run on the petrol stations as there will not be any more tankers coming in for at least a week. Celebrations are still planned and happening in the city for New Years Eve. Amazing the town of Theodore has been totally evacuated and low lying areas of Rockhampton will be evacuated. There definitely has been some learnings after the last Victorian bushfires, as the evacuations are not optional.  At this stage this floods will rank as one of the biggest in Rockhampton.


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## Smurf1976 (30 December 2010)

Logique said:


> Now that is a flood Ruby! You caught me out, too wide the generalization in making the point.



Likewise the fires that destroyed much of the area to the south of Hobart and killed 62 people in 1967 and the various smaller fires in the suburbs over the years since then.

It's really only in the centre of Sydney or Melbourne that you are really safe from such events. But then you're at risk of other problems...


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## Ruby (30 December 2010)

Logique said:


> Now that is a flood Ruby! You caught me out, too wide the generalization in making the point.
> 
> Happy New Year to you. I hope my state is sending up some assistance to the flooded QLD'ers. Some floods of our own down here. Kyogle in northern NSW has been declared a disaster zone this week.




Thanks Logique..... and Happy New Year to you too.


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## noco (30 December 2010)

When nearby countries have disasters, our Government can't there quick enough to lend a hand, MONEY ARMY,HELICOPTERS you name it. To date I have not heard of any of those countries offering aid to Queenslanders. Would it be possible to have even a token of support from Indonesia, Pakistan, New Guinea, Soloman Islands, Fiji and New Zealand. I may be wrong or have missed the news, but I have not heard of one country offering a hand.
Instead of giving $599 million to Climate change Alarmist and the Greens at Cancun Mexico, how about we ask Mr.Combet to divert that money to Queensland. NOT BLOODY LIKELY. The Labor State and Federal Governments give a lousy $1 million each. BIG DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHAME ON THEM.


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## roland (30 December 2010)

noco said:


> When nearby countries have disasters, our Government can't there quick enough to lend a hand, MONEY ARMY,HELICOPTERS you name it. To date I have not heard of any of those countries offering aid to Queenslanders. Would it be possible to have even a token of support from Indonesia, Pakistan, New Guinea, Soloman Islands, Fiji and New Zealand. I may be wrong or have missed the news, but I have not heard of one country offering a hand.
> Instead of giving $599 million to Climate change Alarmist and the Greens at Cancun Mexico, how about we ask Mr.Combet to divert that money to Queensland. NOT BLOODY LIKELY. The Labor State and Federal Governments give a lousy $1 million each. BIG DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
> SHAME ON THEM.




We have had the Yank Firefighters here before, albeit with some controversy over the rewards:



> Dozens of professional firefighters from the United States, Canada and New Zealand have bolstered the attack against Victoria’s bushfires since they erupted almost two months ago.  The leaked document, from the Department of Sustainability and Environment (DSE) and Country Fire Authority (CFA) to members of the Australasian Fire Authorities Council (AFAC), shows these firefighters are being paid $600 a day, on top of having their flights and accommodation paid for.




from: http://on-walkabout.com/2007/01/23/are-american-fire-fighters-wanted-in-australia/


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## Julia (30 December 2010)

noco said:


> When nearby countries have disasters, our Government can't there quick enough to lend a hand, MONEY ARMY,HELICOPTERS you name it. To date I have not heard of any of those countries offering aid to Queenslanders. Would it be possible to have even a token of support from Indonesia, Pakistan, New Guinea, Soloman Islands, Fiji and New Zealand. I may be wrong or have missed the news, but I have not heard of one country offering a hand.
> Instead of giving $599 million to Climate change Alarmist and the Greens at Cancun Mexico, how about we ask Mr.Combet to divert that money to Queensland. NOT BLOODY LIKELY. The Labor State and Federal Governments give a lousy $1 million each. BIG DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
> SHAME ON THEM.



 On the surface, I completely agree.  But it's up to the media what we know about.
I suppose it's quite possible that any of the above nations may have offered help and it has been on a government to government basis, and we've just not heard about it.

For that matter, I've not heard of any other State offering assistance to Queensland.
Even if this is just to contribute empathy and solidarity at such a dreadful time, it would be nice to hear that other State premiers have offered any possible assistance.

Still waiting for the federal government to get the army into action instead of depending entirely on the volunteers in the SES and the charities like Red Cross to offer assistance.

What the hell do we pay our taxes for if it's not to receive federal and state assistance in times of acute disaster.

Absolute sympathy to all those whose homes are only visible by their rooftops.  Must be just so shattering.


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## Tightwad (30 December 2010)

I've never been a Bligh fan.. since she made some disparaging comments about SA.. not that I can remember what they were now.

...mumbles something about orange growers pulling out their trees while qld is growing rice...


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## Calliope (31 December 2010)

Julia said:


> How obscenely disgusting.   This paltry sum is probably less than is being spent with the fireworks in Brisbane on New Year's Eve.




The good burghers of Brisbane, in order to show solidarity with their country cousins and to show they can feel the hurt too, have decided to forgo the fireworks extravaganza on the river tonight. The money saved will be donated to the flood appeal. There is no doubt they will face severe withdrawal symptoms, especially the children, but Anna Bligh said it is a time for tough decisions. The Lord Mayor agrees.

The unused fireworks will be dumped in the bay to provide a safe haven for the yellow bellied sea toad which is in danger of extinction.


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## roland (31 December 2010)

Gillard has just arrived in Bundaberg -she finally got off her backside:



> This morning Ms Gillard began her tour in *Bundaberg*, which has been cut in two by its worst floods in nearly 40 years.




Corporate Australia has eclipsed the "disaster relief" offered by Government:



> The Premier says more than $5 million has been donated to her flood appeal since Wednesday but much more is needed.




sort of falls short of what is really needed:



> Earlier this week, the Government said the damage bill would exceed $1 billion, but Ms Bligh says it will be significantly higher.




quotes from: http://au.news.yahoo.com/local/qld/a/-/local/8581421/gillard-inspects-queensland-disaster-zone/

Seems the Government is happy to build Mosques and schools in Indonesia, but WTF.... where's the assistance at home:



> The Australian government has funded the construction and expansion of over 2.000 junior high schools (madrassas) in poor and remote areas in Indonesia, with funds amounting to AUS $300 million. In addition, another AUS$87 million has also been allocated to improve the quality and management of the education sector.





http://sheikyermami.com/2010/07/16/australian-taxpayers-pays-for-mosques-madrassas-in-indonesia/




> This assistance continues Australia’s support in the areas of scholarships, education, health, rural development and the International Forest Carbon Initiative. Australia is on track to meet its commitment to provide A$2.5 billion in development assistance to Indonesia over five years to June 2013.




and another $2.5 ear-marked

http://www.indo.ausaid.gov.au/


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## sails (31 December 2010)

roland said:


> ...and another $2.5 ear-marked
> 
> http://www.indo.ausaid.gov.au/




Yeah $2.5 BILLION earmarked for Indonesia.  

$1 million is a nothing but slap in the face to our own people.

I guess there is nothing left in the labor purse.


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## breaker (31 December 2010)

Julia said:


> That's a bit cryptic, breaker.
> How about just making a clear message?
> 
> Another suggestion I've heard is that the army should be called in to help in situations like this, rather than everything being left up to the overworked, voluntary people in the SES.
> ...





Sorry Julia i cant type 
We seem to give money out to other causes ie asylum seekers overseas disasters ect but forget our own and when we do it all goes to farmers business hurts to


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## Julia (31 December 2010)

roland said:


> Gillard has just arrived in Bundaberg -she finally got off her backside:



Well, Roland, I suppose it was all just quite fine at the Prime Minister's residence, whether in Canberra or at Kirribilli.   No need to worry about the peasants in regional Queensland.



> Seems the Government is happy to build Mosques and schools in Indonesia, but WTF.... where's the assistance at home:



Exactly.
I just can't believe our politicians.  Even if they lack the basic humanitarian sense of concern for so many people, you'd think they'd be aware of the political fall out from their utterly disgusting lack of concern.

May they think about it with remorse when they lose the next election.


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## awg (31 December 2010)

On the note of flooding, I was horrified to hear the Political rep from Maitland calling again for development to be allowed in the CBD.

One of the most rapidly growing areas in NSW, Maitland is surrounded by paddocks, and housing land is short.

In 1954, it was 20ft underwater, so they banned any further residential development near the CBD.

Even the most mindless fool can see it is a floodplain.

The last time the pollies tried this tack, I read a report from Newcastle Uni that basically said, that flood data should be based on geophysical evidence from at least 400 yrs, preferably 10,000...not just records since settlement 

It showed massive flooding even worse than the '54 flood.

I wonder how much innapropriate property development/building practices may contribute to the cost factors, bearing in mind that massive floods are inevitable over the longer term. ( with respect to above para)

This may apply more to the coastal rivers, as the inland rivers are obviously floodplains, I am not as familiar with the situation in QLD

Also had a recent trip thru south-west NSW, just before big floods down there, feel very sorry for all the farmers had bumper crops ruined. Country looked magnificent, makes you realize the potential for agriculture, so hopefully they can cash in some big yields 2011


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## Smurf1976 (31 December 2010)

awg said:


> I wonder how much innapropriate property development/building practices may contribute to the cost factors, bearing in mind that massive floods are inevitable over the longer term.



In general I'd say there's plenty. Maybe not in this specific location, but in general. Just like there's plenty of badly located residential "developments" in all sorts of places they shouldn't be.

Why anyone would build on a flood plain, under transmission lines (or land zoned for future use for this purpose), next door to a nightclub (or a hotel which could foreseeably become one), beside a major highway (whether planned or already built) is beyond me. There's countless examples of such poor planning in every significant city in the country however.


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## joea (31 December 2010)

Hi.


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## joea (31 December 2010)

Sorry my post is in a black hole, thanks to satellite technology.
I think I hear a midstrength calling.
Cheers


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## Knobby22 (31 December 2010)

I can't believe the attitude.
Everyone in this thread seems to want more money from the Guv'mint. Bit socialist for me.

I would have thought that everyone should have insurance and those that didn't will learn a valuable lesson. If you are building/owning in a flood plain and can't get insurance then don't build there!

In the old days houses in Queensland were mounted off the ground to help cooling and help protect against floods. I can't believe how all the houses are built now, they should be in Melbourne, not Queensland.

The government should help protect lives and look after the dislocated families and that's it!  Enough money will be paid out by social security for that from my taxes. I am not being sarcastic I really believe this. 

Happy New Year!


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## Julia (31 December 2010)

I wonder if you'd be quite so dispassionate and objective if you found yourself suddenly having to leave your home, a situation many have found themselves in when the water rose so abruptly.

You don't seem to have any idea of how unusual this event has been.

It's a reasonable point to say that everyone should be insured.  I agree.  It was one of my criticisms amongst the Victorian bush fires.

But that's a purely practical consideration and doesn't take account of the rising panic as the waters invade your house, and the impossibility of saving much that is precious.

We are OK here, but for a couple of days it was touch and go.  I'm a pretty organised and practical person, but I found myself almost paralysed when trying to think about what I'd try to save.
And where we'd go.  Most evacuation centres will not allow you to take pets.

Most people have put their heart into making their homes.  Their lives are represented in the contents.  

It's just not as simple as saying that if you have adequate insurance then you're just fine, mate, no worries.

Amongst all this, I reckon the local authorities have done a magnificent job, in conjunction with the charities, i.e. the Red Cross and the Salvation Army.
They put our paid politicians to utter shame.

Best wishes for 2011, Knobby.  I hope you remain safe and dry, a position which will enable you to continue to criticise those who are more vulnerable.


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## Knobby22 (31 December 2010)

Julia said:


> I wonder if you'd be quite so dispassionate and objective if you found yourself suddenly having to leave your home, a situation many have found themselves in when the water rose so abruptly.
> 
> You don't seem to have any idea of how unusual this event has been.
> 
> Best wishes for 2011, Knobby.  I hope you remain safe and dry, a position which will enable you to continue to criticise those who are more vulnerable.




I do feel for you and the Queenslanders but not to the extent that we should give out billions of dollars.

You say it is unusual but climate change will do that.  Melbournes fires were caused when records were broken, longest stretch of extreme hot days ever!! It is only going to get worse and no government can become a charity as it is happening more often. It is the government job to do their best to mitigate the damage but not to hand out billions to everyone who has suffered a loss.

Its not nice but "life wasn't meant to be easy". People should seek to be less vulnerable and not expect the government to bail them out if anything bad happens to where they were before the event happens. 

I am not criticising the people, I am critiscising the socialist views in this thread that say billions should be handed out. Didn't see the Victorians asking for Federal money.


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## Garpal Gumnut (31 December 2010)

Julia said:


> I wonder if you'd be quite so dispassionate and objective if you found yourself suddenly having to leave your home, a situation many have found themselves in when the water rose so abruptly.
> 
> You don't seem to have any idea of how unusual this event has been.
> 
> ...




I trust all is well with you and puppy, Julia.

gg


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## GumbyLearner (1 January 2011)

More money is needed. 

Please Queensland and Federal Government help more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvQHlE9QF_4


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## sails (1 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> I can't believe the attitude.
> Everyone in this thread seems to want more money from the Guv'mint. Bit socialist for me.
> 
> I would have thought that everyone should have insurance and those that didn't will learn a valuable lesson. If you are building/owning in a flood plain and can't get insurance then don't build there!
> ...




Knobby22, it's the fact that billions are being spent on aid to other countries when some of our own people are going to need help.

I didn't hear you complain that people should have had insurance or should have built different houses when there have been disasters overseas.  The link below provided by Roland shows $2.5 billion is easily handed out to Indonesia and that's just to help for schooling, etc.

Good governments usually have money set aside to assist their own people in these rare and catastrophic events that are often not covered by insurance.

It seems pathetic that our own are left to pick up the pieces whilst those vital aid funds to help keep farmers in business and help people put their lives back together appear to be sent overseas.

I doubt that those affected will be looking for handouts but neither should they have to look for them.  Part of our taxes is usually designated for this purpose and it is the decent thing for the government to do and stop big noting themselves on the world stage

1 million...pfft - especially in a disaster of this scale and when measured alongside assistance given overseas and the huge collective cost paid on behalf of boat arrivals.



roland said:


> ...Seems the Government is happy to build Mosques and schools in Indonesia, but WTF.... where's the assistance at home:
> 
> http://sheikyermami.com/2010/07/16/australian-taxpayers-pays-for-mosques-madrassas-in-indonesia/
> 
> ...




It simply isn't right, IMO.


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## Logique (1 January 2011)

Logique said:


> ...Look for a 'working families' flood bonus. So much per child probably.



And inevitably it comes to pass. But it's good to see some sort of action.



> http://www.valleynewslive.com/Global/story.asp?S=13762215
> ...Prime Minister Julia Gillard toured an evacuation center in the flood-stricken town of Bundaberg on Friday and announced that families whose homes had been flooded or damaged would be eligible for disaster relief payments of $1,000 per adult and $400 per child.
> "My concern is for the people in these very difficult times," Gillard said...




Concerned for the people? What about their power and water bills.


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## noco (1 January 2011)

Whist it is going to costaplenty for the state government, I guess we will continue hear from Anna untill March 2012 election how the floods have keep the state in the RED. What a blessing in disguise for her.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...get-into-the-red/story-e6freqmx-1225979659118


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## Julia (1 January 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I trust all is well with you and puppy, Julia.
> 
> gg



Hi GG, thanks for asking.  We are all quite OK here now the rain has stopped.
Some property damage but nothing compared with so many others.



Knobby22 said:


> I do feel for you and the Queenslanders but not to the extent that we should give out billions of dollars.



I was absolutely not looking for any sympathy on a personal basis.  I'm fine and am well insured.

The point was, as Sails has so appropriately described, that we can hand out so much for building mosques or whatever in Indonesia et al, but are seemingly reluctant to offer much assistance for our own people.

I agree completely that we shouldn't be 'encouraging' people not to take responsibility and to give them for nothing what they should have been organising themselves via insurance.  And I cannot understand why people will buy or build homes in known flood prone areas for which they cannot get insurance.  Perhaps these places are a lot cheaper, and that's all they can afford?   I don't know, but it seems crazy to me.

But the point I was also trying to make is that no amount of insurance, or government funds for that matter, can make up for the personal losses people are experiencing, and the stress involved.  As I said earlier, I'm organised and practical but I was bloody terrified a few times when the water was rising at a rate I just couldn't have believed.

So, even the early presence of political leaders (I note Tony Abbott is yet even to make an appearance on the subject!) and the promise of some financial assistance can, I think, lend some comfort to the people who are feeling so devastated.  i.e. it's about more than the actual money.

I might be wrong about this and perhaps it's only encouraging people to think they don't need to be responsible for themselves.



> I am not criticising the people, I am critiscising the socialist views in this thread that say billions should be handed out. Didn't see the Victorians asking for Federal money.



I haven't heard anyone saying billions should be handed out.  Government will have a bill for billions in infrastructure repair alone.   The point was simply being made that what is being offered to Australians is decidedly less than that given to many other countries.
Re the Victorians:  they didn't have to ask for anything.  The Appeals were begun immediately, and the promises of government money also.

Surely we're not going to have, especially at this time, some invidious comparison of which State's citizens are the most needy!


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## Smurf1976 (1 January 2011)

With regard to insurance, I note that my own house insurance policy specifically excludes flooding caused by a natural watercourse (river etc) rising. That's with a fairly larger insurer and I know that other companies have similar exclusions.

It's not an issue for me however. Whilst there's a creek over the back fence, it would need to rise 50 metres or so up a fairly steep hill for my house to be flooded. If that happens then we're talking about a massive disaster and effectively the destruction of the entire city and suburbs. Can't really do much about that sort of risk.

All that said, I don't think that my taxes should be used specifically to help in situations where insurance cover was reasonably available but the property owners chose not to take it out. To do so would defeat the purpose of anyone paying for insurance. 

Apart from the effects on residents, I'm wondering about the broader economic effects of this. Farm crops are obviously destroyed, but what about other things? I heard a mention of gas production being affected - will that in turn cause a gas shortage and shutdown of factories etc not directly affected by the floods? 

And what about mines? Are we talking about just waiting for the flood to subside, fixing some damage to equipment etc and then resuming mining? Or is it a situation that will take months or even years to rectify with massive damage to equipment, complete flooding of underground mines etc that will have to be pumped out (if that is even possible?) etc?

All that said, the first priority is to save lives. Worry about the rest once that's done.


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## sails (1 January 2011)

Julia said:


> ...I agree completely that we shouldn't be 'encouraging' people not to take responsibility and to give them for nothing what they should have been organising themselves via insurance.  And I cannot understand why people will buy or build homes in known flood prone areas for which they cannot get insurance.  Perhaps these places are a lot cheaper, and that's all they can afford?   I don't know, but it seems crazy to me...(




Julia, it's possible that many people don't even give major floods a thought when they purchase property - especially when they are well out side of "normal" flood levels such as those in flash flooding from storms.

Those that have been caught previously or know someone who has been caught in these extreme floods will obviously be more proactive when purchasing property in the future.  But then no-one should live near the sea either in case of tsunami.  And we shouldn't live in the bush in case of fire.  And all coastal towns are also at risk of cyclones such as the devastation in Darwin.  

When one looks at the number of people living on canals, yes, they are a high risk for flood and I don't understand why people would live there.  But the flooding we have seen in Qld is far from normal.  It is of rare and catastrophic levels. 

Many people purchase property that is close to work and schools and many property settlements are done through solicitors or conveyancers who may not look into previous major flooding.  The purchaser thinks all checks have been done.


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## Julia (1 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> All that said, I don't think that my taxes should be used specifically to help in situations where insurance cover was reasonably available but the property owners chose not to take it out. To do so would defeat the purpose of anyone paying for insurance.



I don't think anyone would disagree with this in principle.   What you haven't commented on, however, is the readiness of governments to provide foreign aid.
Using your example, shouldn't Australian taxpayers equally expect that e.g. Indonesia should be prepared to pay for their own mosques, schools etc?

I appreciate that foreign aid is often provided as a means of enhancing the relationship between countries, oiling wheels as it were, but I don't suppose your average regional Queenslander whose house is under water is probably going to think too much about that.

It's a vexed question.   The objective and rational response is as you and Knobby have suggested.  But somehow human compassion surely has to have a role?


----------



## noco (1 January 2011)

Julia said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree with this in principle.   What you haven't commented on, however, is the readiness of governments to provide foreign aid.
> Using your example, shouldn't Australian taxpayers equally expect that e.g. Indonesia should be prepared to pay for their own mosques, schools etc?
> 
> I appreciate that foreign aid is often provided as a means of enhancing the relationship between countries, oiling wheels as it were, but I don't suppose your average regional Queenslander whose house is under water is probably going to think too much about that.
> ...




Well said Julia, and its all about buying a seat on the United Nations General Assembly for Ruddy, hence the reason our left wing Govna Gen went to several  African nations in 2009 and at what cost?


----------



## Calliope (1 January 2011)

Australia saves the World, by pouring in Aid which is mainly wasted through corruption, e.g. PNG, The Solomons and East Timor. We are however stuck with these three basket cases. If we turn our back on them they will ask China for aid.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps/ms?h...49062,98.789063&spn=166.538012,226.054687&z=2


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## Wysiwyg (1 January 2011)

There may be but I haven't heard of a "Natural Event Damage Fund" where funds are put aside by States for natural events affecting large numbers of people. Surely the coffers would swell in between large natural events such as fires, cyclones, extended droughts and floods.


----------



## Calliope (1 January 2011)

Fairbairn Dam Spillway Emerald.

The Fitzroy River Basin is the largest catchment in Australia after the Murray-Darling. All its tributaries are in severe flood and this wall of water is heading for Rockhampton, a city of 75,000 people.


----------



## IFocus (1 January 2011)

Julia said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree with this in principle.   What you haven't commented on, however, is the readiness of governments to provide foreign aid.
> Using your example, shouldn't Australian taxpayers equally expect that e.g. Indonesia should be prepared to pay for their own mosques, schools etc?




Could you please read up on why Australia gives foreign aid to Indonesia and the pacific nations in particular? 

You will find two very specific reasons one for each region none even remotely explored in this thread. Try starting with terrorism, radicalism, failed states  etc BTW supported in principle by all sides of politics. 

How you mob tie foreign aid with the flood crisis is beyond me.

As for the money thing its like people calling for money half way through a cyclone that's still wrecking the town.

I would have thought the money will flow after the water levels fall and the true cost and needs are accessed.

In the mean time just like any other disaster the normal agency's manage the crisis until the crisis passes then the governments (state / fed) turn up with the money bag and waste and rip offs will come soon enough.

As for compassion................were have the harden WR gone, Knobby is right talk about a bunch of closet Communists.

Most of the vision I have seen is of people who cannot afford insurance because they live in a known flood plain. 

Isn't that market forces working? Just like work place contracts take it or go some where else, Isn't that what is preached by the hard nose Liberals?

End of rant


----------



## Slipperz (1 January 2011)

Interesting to follow this thread. It's had me thinking a bit.

Taking stock of my living circumstances in a 28 storey apartment block on the spine of Sydney I can't help but feel a bit detached from it all in my airconditioned comfort.

I don't have insurance, I'm hoping that being three years old my building has been constructed to withstand earthquakes and floods and tsunamis and with modern engineering and air extractions and smoke alarms in my concrete shell with a two inch thick fire door and balcony I'm not too concerned about fire or wind either.

I pay a lot of money for this and work pretty damn hard to support this lifestyle both in my occupation and secondary occupation aka trading the markets.

I guess I'm what some of these sturdy "pragmatic" country folk would derisively call a city slicker or worse. I saw a few in the Murray Darling on tv when the govt started to reallocate their water rights.

Their behaviour didn't impress me much.

The nation seems to treat the rural sector with this uncommercial reverence as if these hicks sitting on the verandah drinking jim beam watching the grass grow at the mercy of the weather are somehow smarter and more deserving of national support than any other.

And lets not fool ourselves the farming sector is cyclical in terms of production and generational in it's nature. Do farmers finance their activities on a long term cyclical nature or do they feast on their revenues in good times and put their hands out to the government in times of hardship?

I guess I'm wandering off topic a bit and might sound a bit callous as the scale of this disaster unfolds but in all honesty when the rural sector seem to take such pride in their tough commonsense approach to life and look down upon their urbanised counterparts why is it the urban population has to keep bailing them out all the time?


----------



## Calliope (1 January 2011)

IFocus said:


> As for compassion................were have the harden WR gone




What does this mean?:dunno:. Is it some sort of whale-lovers code?


----------



## IFocus (1 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> What does this mean?:dunno:. Is it some sort of whale-lovers code?





LOL no just getting in a free kick re insurance, market forces, free handouts any time some thing goes wrong.

Bleeding hearts is suppose to be my-side of the fence


----------



## Julia (1 January 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> There may be but I haven't heard of a "Natural Event Damage Fund" where funds are put aside by States for natural events affecting large numbers of people. Surely the coffers would swell in between large natural events such as fires, cyclones, extended droughts and floods.



Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't that further deter an already reluctant population from taking out appropriate insurance?




Calliope said:


> What does this mean?:dunno:. Is it some sort of whale-lovers code?



I was wondering the same thing.  



IFocus said:


> LOL no just getting in a free kick re insurance, market forces, free handouts any time some thing goes wrong.
> 
> Bleeding hearts is suppose to be my-side of the fence



Which essentially demonstrates that the right/left divide is overall pretty meaningless.

The more I think about this, the more I revert to how I felt re the Victorian bushfires (perhaps shamefully no longer feeling threatened by the floods), and agree with Knobby and Smurf.

I heard a comment today on the radio that people who were not insured should not worry as relief funds, from government and other sources, will see them not disadvantaged.

That's just not right and is just encouraging dependence on the state.

I'm aware that  I'm being ambivalent about all this.


----------



## Julia (1 January 2011)

Slipperz said:


> And lets not fool ourselves the farming sector is cyclical in terms of production and generational in it's nature. Do farmers finance their activities on a long term cyclical nature or do they feast on their revenues in good times and put their hands out to the government in times of hardship?
> 
> I guess I'm wandering off topic a bit and might sound a bit callous as the scale of this disaster unfolds but in all honesty when the rural sector seem to take such pride in their tough commonsense approach to life and look down upon their urbanised counterparts why is it the urban population has to keep bailing them out all the time?



Not off topic at all, slipperz.
But I'm not sure in this situation that the people affected have themselves actually been reaching out for financial assistance.  From what I've seen, they're demonstrating a pretty remarkable stoicism in the face of pretty overwhelming misery.

It's probably more the concern and sympathy of fellow Australians (and political considerations on the part of the politicians) that see the establishment of a flood appeal as the only way they can demonstrate their sympathy and support.

Remember back when the Kosovo war was happening.  The term 'compassion fatigue' became popular.  This is a perfectly real phenomenon.  I don't think we have much of a sense of connection with those in devastating situations unless we have a taste ourselves of how it feels.

So Slipperz, you will be expressing the dominant response, I'd guess, in feeling a bit detached from the experiences of many regional Queenslanders.  Not so different, even, from hearing about the Haiti or NZ earthquakes.  If you don't have a personal connection, it simply doesn't affect you at all.


----------



## ghotib (1 January 2011)

Julia said:


> The more I think about this, the more I revert to how I felt re the Victorian bushfires (perhaps shamefully no longer feeling threatened by the floods), and agree with Knobby and Smurf.
> 
> I heard a comment today on the radio that people who were not insured should not worry as relief funds, from government and other sources, will see them not disadvantaged.
> 
> ...



Dear Julia,
Not so much ambivalent as panicky I think. You posts are usually so level-headed that it's hard to recognise you when you occasionally get irrational 

Glad you and the pooch are both safe and well.

Ghoti


----------



## Julia (1 January 2011)

ghotib said:


> Dear Julia,
> Not so much ambivalent as panicky I think. You posts are usually so level-headed that it's hard to recognise you when you occasionally get irrational
> 
> Glad you and the pooch are both safe and well.
> ...




Hello Ghoti,
You're quite right.  I am indeed being irrational.
And hell, I'm all calm now compared to a few days ago!
Hope the farm is meeting all your expectations and the special animal holding her own.
J.


----------



## burglar (1 January 2011)

Slipperz said:


> ... why is it the urban population has to keep bailing them out all the time?




Because we (urban population) eat.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 January 2011)

Julia said:


> Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't that further deter an already reluctant population from taking out appropriate insurance?



Yes well deduced Julia. I suppose the belief would be that the money is what was contributed in taxes anyway.

Maybe not for personal use but communal?


----------



## Calliope (2 January 2011)

burglar said:


> Because we (urban population) eat.




Spot on burglar.


----------



## nioka (2 January 2011)

Slipperz said:


> I guess I'm wandering off topic a bit and might sound a bit callous as the scale of this disaster unfolds but in all honesty when the rural sector seem to take such pride in their tough commonsense approach to life and look down upon their urbanised counterparts why is it the urban population has to keep bailing them out all the time?




I think it is time you got out and had a look at the real world. Remember "if you eat you ARE involved in agriculture".


----------



## sails (2 January 2011)

I agree with the comments that taxpayers funds shouldn't be used to completely replace the need for insurance. However, as Smurf has mentioned, insurance doesn't always cover flood.  I have heard that it may be difficult for farms to get flood insurance and this will possibly affect the prices we pay for food. Food that is likely to be in very short supply for a while or we have to put up with imports.

It is the *comparison* of the extraordinary amount of funds that is channeled off overseas compared with the paltry amount from both federal and state governments for this natural disaster.  There might be reasons for these extraordinary amounts going overseas, but on the surface, it seems that our own taxpayers caught in this disaster have much less significance.  We should not forget that many of those affected (farmers included) would be paying taxes only to see their taxes favouring other disasters overseas. 

 To break it down - if there are 10,000 homes and businesses severely affected - $1 million would mean *$100* each.  If there are 100,000 it would be *$10* per home/business.  So no amount of government handout is going to completely replace insurance even if that amount was 10 or 20 times higher.  

I guess the problem the government will have to face is that this could produce a whole new wave of homelesness and they are struggling cope with the current homeless levels.



nioka said:


> I think it is time you got out and had a look at the real world. Remember "if you eat you ARE involved in agriculture".




Spot on, Nioka...


----------



## Whiskers (2 January 2011)

nioka said:


> I think it is time you got out and had a look at the real world. Remember "if you eat you ARE involved in agriculture".




Ain't that the blunt truth!


All the major agricultural countries subsidise their primary producers in some shape or form, often as subsidies or guaranteed minimum prices. The US pay farmers to grow crops and call it "farm income stabilization"...  I think they paid something like $20 Billion last year.

Take the cheap subsidised European veges and dubious quality (health wise) Asian seafoods flushing our supermarkets some time ago. People complained about supporting heavily subsidised and or poor quality imports, arguing that the 'retailers' should support local producers more and keep more money in the local economy.

Talking about flood damage, veg prices are starting to go through the roof. Over Xmas I thought I was made buying a watermelon for $2.50 after paying up to $8.00 each leading up to Xmas. Yesterday it was hard to find one.

Around Bundaberg the flooding has started to receed but the impact of crop damage and inability to plant waterlogged ground has yet to be fully felt. Then there is Emerald which is usually a large supplier of fruit and veg getting the tail end of their season lost... and similarly for so much of the Fitzroy, Burnett and Mary river valleys and those northern NSW regions that follow on from our season.

My little crop of pumpkin is almost a write-off, but after seeing small stuff that you wouldn't normally bother picking selling for up to $3.00 each, I'll be finding every last one I can over the next few weeks to try and make up for the 6 to 8 tonnes at about $500 to $1,000 per tonne I was expecting out of the rotation crop.

Central and southern Qld mangoes have suffered more after a wet spring killing off a lot of fruit set and prices are topped only by consumer resistance to higher prices... not to mention so many other fruit and veg lines that are and will be the same story over the coming weeks and maybe months.

Then there are the cereal and cotton crop damage and yet to be tallied livestock losses.

It's as much about national (food) security as welfare to support the rural sector in such extreme circumstances.

All that being said, our mining sector has arguably a better deal than the rural sector, both as subsidies and grants and more importantly income tax laws. 

Many on this forum would consider the share market to be the riskiest form of investment, but Agricultural Production (Farming) is actually the higher risk of investment. That is why so many countries value and look after their Farming sector so well.


----------



## Calliope (2 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> Ain't that the blunt truth!
> 
> 
> All the major agricultural countries subsidise their primary producers in some shape or form, often as subsidies or guaranteed minimum prices. The US pay farmers to grow crops and call it "farm income stabilization"...  I think they paid something like $20 Billion last year.
> ...




Excellent post Whiskers. It's about time someone explained the facts of life to smug and selfish people like Slipperz who like to sink the slipper into those who feed them.


----------



## Calliope (2 January 2011)

THE swollen Fitzroy River surged closer to its flood peak this morning, placing hundreds of Rockhampton properties in danger.

Some might say that this is nemesis for Rockhampton for continuing to re-elect Queensland's most obnoxious politician...Robert Schwarten


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## Smurf1976 (2 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> All the major agricultural countries subsidise their primary producers in some shape or form, often as subsidies or guaranteed minimum prices. The US pay farmers to grow crops and call it "farm income stabilization"...  I think they paid something like $20 Billion last year.
> 
> Take the cheap subsidised European veges and dubious quality (health wise) Asian seafoods flushing our supermarkets some time ago. People complained about supporting heavily subsidised and or poor quality imports, arguing that the 'retailers' should support local producers more and keep more money in the local economy.



I'm at a loss to understand why we go along with all this "free trade" and "level playing field" nonsense in the first place. It's not as though it's doing anything other than destroy local manufacturing and to some extent agriculture.

When Chinese etc wages, working conditions, environmental laws etc are equal to Austrlalia's, then we'll have a true "level playing field". In the meantime, it's little more than exploitation of cheap labour and lax regulation so as to enhance the profits of the multi-nationals. 

If there's one thing history teaches it is that war is common. The odds of Australia being directly involved in conflict at some future point are almost certain, likewise for most other countries. Letting manufacturing and agriculture fall in a heap isn't a wise move when you think about it. Indeed national security was the specific reason why some manufacturing industries were set up in the first place.

In any event, when's the last time you came across an incredibly rich farmer? And when's the last time you saw such a person in a city? Not too many multi-millionaires working dawn to dusk every day trying to make a living on the farm. Anyone who is in such a position is likely merely a land owner who made their money by means other than actual farming.


----------



## So_Cynical (2 January 2011)

IFocus said:


> How you mob tie foreign aid with the flood crisis is beyond me.




Considering its the core of the ASF right...im guessing there attitude, mite be politicly motivated.



Smurf1976 said:


> I'm at a loss to understand why we go along with all this "free trade" and "level playing field" nonsense in the first place. It's not as though it's doing anything other than destroy local manufacturing and to some extent agriculture.




I was once hopeful that the GFC would force the US and Europe to at least pull back a little on the subsidy front..seems i was wrong.


----------



## nioka (2 January 2011)

So_Cynical said:


> I was once hopeful that the GFC would force the US and Europe to at least pull back a little on the subsidy front..seems i was wrong.




There is still the memory in Europe of the food shortages during and after WW2. They know the value of making sure that their local production is a buffer against the same thing happening again. 

One of these days we will be faced with the same problem both with food supply and the availability of manufactured goods. We have sold out to the multinationals and one of these days they will demand their pound of flesh. (The first to feel the pinch could be the smug city dwellers.)

A good example for todays times would be the rare earth supply, or rather nonsupply, where China has been allowed to dominate the field. They dominated the field by using cheap labour and allowing massive pollution so that their costs forced the closure of competing companies. Now they are restricting exports and asking businesses using rare earths to relocate to China.

Most Australians would not be aware of the extent that we now rely on food imports from overseas while at the same time Australian producers are forced out of business.

Are we still the "lucky country"?


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## Julia (2 January 2011)

Whiskers, thanks for your comments.  Very pertinent.

How are you doing personally?  Is your house still above water?


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## Whiskers (2 January 2011)

Julia said:


> Whiskers, thanks for your comments.  Very pertinent.
> 
> How are you doing personally?  Is your house still above water?




Yeah, I'm fine. No chance of my house flooding. But it's all damn boggy outside still and getting a bit mouldy inside from the humidity and lack of decent breeze most days.

I couldn't travel very far for a few days because of flooding and the telstra line went down for a couple of days, apparently from a washed out and broken cable somewhere. 

The first day I did venture out, a couple of days after the heavy rain stopped I got as far as north Bundaberg and took this photo pretty close to the flood peak, from about 40m from the roundabout along Hinkler Avenue at the North Bundy School towards the new bridge. The bridge was still above water in the distance (as was the old bridge) but the approaches, Hinkler Avenue and the hockey fields to the right, was under about 2m of water here. The water was almost up to the floor of the new IGA on North Bundy, just out of picture to the left, about .5m across the top end of Queen street.

The other photo is of the approaches to the Elliot River on the Goodwood Road (what the locals refer to as the back road south to Childers) as the council starts repairing the wash-out. Some serious money will be needed for road repairs alone in the next few months, not just for the current washouts and pot holes, but if you look at a lot of the roads they are starting to deform from water penetration of the road base. They will continue to break up for weeks and months to come because the damage has become irreversable now. By the time the base dries out to ideal moisture content, the damage will be done by the thumping of heavy traffic.


----------



## rcm617 (2 January 2011)

Slipperz said:


> Interesting to follow this thread. It's had me thinking a bit.
> 
> Taking stock of my living circumstances in a 28 storey apartment block on the spine of Sydney I can't help but feel a bit detached from it all in my airconditioned comfort.
> 
> ...





Good to see your living of the fat of the land in you little airconditioned unit. Unfortunately very little is produced by our cities any more, yet we are one of the most urbanised societies in the world. Even mine workers are mainly fly in fly out now, nobody wants to live out in the bush anymore. I shudder to think what this country will live off if we ever find the rest of the world doesnt want our quarry products any more.
Unlike your portrayal of country people as hicks, farming nowadays involves a bit more than watching the grass grow, while swigging booze. And the vast majority when forced off their farm by economic necessity go gracefully. I think a little latitude is called for when they are forced off the land by decisions made in our capital cities. I'm sure we'd hear a bit of protesting from you if you were forced out of your little airconditioned unit to do something useful like go cotton chipping in 40 degree heat .


----------



## Calliope (2 January 2011)

So_Cynical said:


> Considering its the core of the ASF right...im guessing there attitude, mite be politicly motivated.
> 
> Just as the views of you and IFocus are politically motivated. The left's contempt for people on the land is a hangover from Stalinist times when the Kulaks (independent peasant farmers) were declared "class enemies" and purged..


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 January 2011)

nioka said:


> A good example for todays times would be the rare earth supply, or rather nonsupply, where China has been allowed to dominate the field. They dominated the field by using cheap labour and allowing massive pollution so that their costs forced the closure of competing companies. Now they are restricting exports and asking businesses using rare earths to relocate to China.



And one of those big businesses now at the absolute mercy of China is...

The US Military.

Apparently, there are quite a few people in the US miltary who are somewhat shocked to realise that some of their more advanced weapons systems are now out of production due to reliance on Chinese raw materials, supply of which has been effectively cut off. 

Not really a smart move to be dependent on foreign suppliers when it comes to matters of defence. I'm not being anti-American, I'm just not keen on ignoring the blindingly obvious when it comes to trade and the inevitable consequences.


----------



## Julia (3 January 2011)

Mr Abbott has finally managed to drag himself out of holiday mode and climb into a helicopter to take a look at the floods.

Fantastic effort, Tony, just about a week too late to demonstrate any actual interest.


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## Calliope (3 January 2011)

Julia said:


> Mr Abbott has finally managed to drag himself out of holiday mode and climb into a helicopter to take a look at the floods.
> 
> Fantastic effort, Tony, just about a week too late to demonstrate any actual interest.




It's about time the Stick-insect made her vice-regal appearance to provide a bit of comic relief.


----------



## GumbyLearner (3 January 2011)

I hope they compensate victims. 

Handing out free bicycle helmets won't help. As Garpal Gumnut has pointed out on numerous occasions.


----------



## Lantern (3 January 2011)

A little clip on the news this morning brought a smile to my face.

"An area the size of France and Germany combined is now under water"

"There are 22 towns affected!"

Still wouldn''t want to be in their gum boots.


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## Smurf1976 (3 January 2011)

Anyone in Hobart who wants to donate to help the Qld flood victims, apparently Hobart City Council is accepting donations at the Taste (final day today). It's not confirmed, but at least one Alderman also wants the Council to match public donations.

Now, a food festival in Hobart isn't going to raise a fortune that's for sure. But if we did this sort of thing right around the country...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/03/3105418.htm


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## Julia (3 January 2011)

It's nice to know that the governments of New Zealand and the USA have offered assistance.  The PM has expressed her appreciation but said we are quite able to manage at this stage.

I've really been impressed by the smooth implementation of disaster plans on the part of regional councils.  The various Mayors have been on the radio multiple times every day and, despite the obviously long hours they are on deck, they are clearly coping admirably.

Evacuation centres have quickly been set up, including facilities for caring for pets, and all up I reckon the various authorities have done a magnificent job.  Logistically it must be a nightmare, but the only loss of life has been due to people just being bloody stupid and flying in the face of the multiple warnings about dabbling about in flood waters.

All up, it's a huge credit to them.


----------



## white_crane (4 January 2011)

As a Queenslander who been through quite a few floods, there are a few points that I would like to make:


*Living on/near a large watercourse usually means a secure water supply, a necessity for any population.

*Farms are there for the same reason - they need water too.  And why else would you put a farm on a flood plain?  Because it's bloody fertile that's why!

*Recently, councils have been introducing laws to enforce the construction of dwellings above a 1 in 100 year flood event.

*The climate in Australia is currently in an El Niño pattern - meaning a higher than average chance of above average rainfall.

*It is only the start of the wet season in Northern Australia.

*Much of the areas now in flood have just come out of one of the worst droughts on record.

*Not everyone has access to flood insurance - either because it simply isn't available to them in that area or because the extra premium is too high.  Also, the term 'flood' used by some insurance policies doesn't always include flooding caused by a river.

*If you've listened to the reports you would have heard terms such as: 'worst flood in 60 years', 'worst flood on memory', 'worst flood on record' etc.  And yes, this is exactly what these floods are for these areas.  Can you actually comprehend what this means?



On a personal note, my local area experienced a minor/moderate flood event on Christmas/Boxing Day.  No problems with my house, but with a few months left of 'the wet', more flooding is possible.


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## Calliope (4 January 2011)

Julia said:


> ... the only loss of life has been due to people just being bloody stupid and flying in the face of the multiple warnings about dabbling about in flood waters.




Despite all our efforts to reverse it, the weeding out of the unfit ( in this case, idiots) is a continuing evolutionary process.


----------



## derty (4 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> Despite all our efforts to reverse it, the weeding out of the unfit ( in this case, idiots) is a continuing evolutionary process.



Yes, it seems some peoples purpose in life is to serve as an example for others.


----------



## Mofra (4 January 2011)

Julia said:


> I've really been impressed by the smooth implementation of disaster plans on the part of regional councils.  The various Mayors have been on the radio multiple times every day and, despite the obviously long hours they are on deck, they are clearly coping admirably.
> 
> Evacuation centres have quickly been set up, including facilities for caring for pets, and all up I reckon the various authorities have done a magnificent job.  Logistically it must be a nightmare, but the only loss of life has been due to people just being bloody stupid and flying in the face of the multiple warnings about dabbling about in flood waters.



Glad someone has pointed this out - yes they've had time to prepare, but they've effectively put their plans into effect very well and hopefully that bodes well for the long clean-up and the recovery process. 


Big thumbs down to the low-life scumbag looters who have ransacked a number of evacuated properties


----------



## Knobby22 (4 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> Big thumbs down to the low-life scumbag looters who have ransacked a number of evacuated properties




Yes, they should be hit with the full force of the law and then some, and their photos published in the local paper. Talk about low.

Looks like Gillard has given in partly to the pressure and is giving loans of $14,000 per family and $25,000 per small business. Better than donations but I wonder how many will never pay back the loans. I haven't heard a word from Abbott about what he would do, he is usually so forthright. 

Of course there is also centrlink and the farmers get disaster recovery money, both of which I approve of.


----------



## Whiskers (4 January 2011)

I just got an email from my grower organisation advising about the details of assistance for primary producers and small business. If you know anyone needing financial help in particular steer them to the following web sites.

Primary producers and small business http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/4789_19765.htm#Financial_assistance and follow the link or go straight to the fact sheet at http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/documents/Environment/Disaster-Flood-Assistance-DEEDI-Factsheet.pdf 

Individual and family assistance details are at http://www.qld.gov.au/floods/


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## Vicki (4 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> So_Cynical said:
> 
> 
> > Considering its the core of the ASF right...im guessing there attitude, mite be politicly motivated.
> ...


----------



## Calliope (5 January 2011)

Vicki said:


> Calliope said:
> 
> 
> > I find this a little extreme...As Stalin was an out-right murdering pig, who intentionally starved millions of his own people to death!
> ...


----------



## burglar (5 January 2011)

No punching below the belt, no eye gouging, ....


----------



## Vicki (5 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> I made no comparison to "our system", whatever that is, or "our leaders".
> 
> Perhaps you are a "little extreme" yourself. This is you on another thread;




Yes "guilty" i did say "sink the bastards" In reference to a rogue whaling fleet that constantly flouts anti-whaling laws in our waters, with a rediculous technicality.

If our Navy had the authority to get tough on them, By evacuating one of their harpoon-boats, before using it for target practice, that would serve as an example to them, to stop breeching OUR laws, & treating us with contempt.... then yes, I wouldn't be shedding a tear for these large Japanese coy's.

Stalin would've just murdered everyone who defied his authority...big difference.

Anyway, none of the above would ever happen, as Stalin is dead & our government/s are to spineless to tackle the 'big' money  lol.

Finished my rant, now we can all get back on subject, with the floods.

Vicki


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## Whiskers (6 January 2011)

Why has this been allowed to continue for so long! 



> *When is a flood not a flood?*
> Dan Nancarrow
> January 6, 2011 - 6:57AM
> 
> ...




I find the ACCC's rationale here intresting to say the least.

Have to see if I can find the proposed definition.



> The Insurance Council of Australia put forward a proposal for a common definition of inland flooding in 2008, but it was denied authorisation from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission on the basis that the proposal may actually create more confusion, rather than provide clarity for consumers.
> 
> At the time, the ACCC said the decision did not prevent the insurance industry from seeking authorisation for a revised proposal in the future and encouraged the council to put forward another definition.




Call me synical, but I think it's a case of smart **** insurers and their lawyers being deliberately deceptive in their promoting of insurance. 

I say challenge if you get turned down. Get a group of people with common insurance claim denials together and orchestrate some publicity, name and shame companies... and you may get some better relief to 'shut-up and go away'. 

Remember, deceitful and dubious people have a thick hide to operate the way they do, but they depend on a good public persona/perception to continue in business. So don't get caught up in individual brow beating with them, where they will always win, but aim for their soft spot with press and media coverage, letters to politicans, the ombudsman, the premiers office and leters to the editor to highlight their misrepresentations.

PS: Re "Mr Zinn said insurance companies did not make the distinction clear to many customers.. ." if you asked if your policy was covered by flood damage and the insurer or their rep said 'yes' without referring to any specific exclusions in the policy you have a probable cause of action against them. Consumers can often get overwhelmed by the 'law' and the process, but it's a pretty simple point of law that even a layman can win with a bit of stamina.


----------



## Whiskers (6 January 2011)

Just to eloberate a bit more, the general term for this is Unconscionable Conduct. The ACCC has some pretty easy to follow stuff http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/716807

Unscionscionable conduct is just as much about the 'Ã“missions' of the insurer to do a thing (including negligence) as it is about what they actually did and say. Caveat emptor or Buyer Beware does not mean (despite many salesmen believing so) that an insurer can do or fail to do anything that would cause you to enter into a contract that you otherwise would not have. 

But the thing I wanted to highlight is that just because the insurance company knocks your claim back and brow beats you with 'Ã­t's all in the fine print', doesn't mean they are (legally) right and the matter ends there.

The conduct of the parties leading up to the contracts enactment is often more important than the actual contract itself... particularly where there is large amounts of fine print and or conditions in highly technical or legal jargen. Unsconscionable conduct legally includes any false or misleading conduct (including negligent) which caused you to agree to the contract,* BUT importantly also includes any significant imbalance in power of the parties *as the ACCC site points out


> particularly people with limited English language skills, education or commercial experience




because to quote the ACCC again..


> Clearly set out all key terms of the agreement—ensuring that consumers are made aware of key terms and conditions. If a key term is buried at the back of a long contract or hidden in fine print, it may not be enforceable.




Basically, this means if there is a significant imbalance in power between the parties, such as educational standards to cultural beliefs and 'normal' understanding, to health, such as poor hearing and eye sight that the insurer (or agent) exploited to mislead you into the contract, then you have a legal cause of action to a remedy. 

That remedy may be Compensatory Damages, such as refund of all premiums or an order to pay for the flood damage that you were led to believe the policy covered.

It also may include Punitive damages where the insurers conduct is particularrly deceptive, misleading or even malicious. While there has been a legislative cap put on many punative damages, it can still be significant depending on nature and degree of the unscionscionable conduct and the strength the deterrent message the judge wants to send to other people who might try to engage in similar conduct.

So if you are turned down on a claim by the definition of 'Flood', don't take your insurance company's word for it. Develop a bit of community muscle to make some noise and legal muscle eg class action, to get even. 

To finish off this rant, one of my favourite sayings is don't get mad... get even. Sock it to the bastards.


----------



## Julia (6 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> PS: Re "Mr Zinn said insurance companies did not make the distinction clear to many customers.. ." if you asked if your policy was covered by flood damage and the insurer or their rep said 'yes' without referring to any specific exclusions in the policy you have a probable cause of action against them. Consumers can often get overwhelmed by the 'law' and the process, but it's a pretty simple point of law that even a layman can win with a bit of stamina.



Whiskers, whilst I admire your zeal, I would be surprised if the documentation provided by insurance companies doesn't absolutely cover them in this regard.

I know my policy clearly states I have flood cover from storm/run off/rain, but not if flood is caused by inundation from river, dam etc.  It's quite clear.

Claiming that a sales rep told a customer they were fully covered regardless of source of flood is imo unlikely to be much use.  Sales rep would deny having made such an assurance (and frankly I doubt they would have said anything like this in the first place).

I did read in some media yesterday a statement from Suncorp saying that their customers would be fully covered regardless of the source of any inundation.

Seems like a good PR move from SUN.  You'd have to think the number of customers flocking to them, even if they are not in flood prone areas, would compensate for any extra pay outs.

Hopefully this event will make some people realise that insurance is a necessity, not an option.


----------



## Calliope (6 January 2011)

Julia said:


> I did read in some media yesterday a statement from Suncorp saying that their customers would be fully covered regardless of the source of any inundation.




AAMI which is owned by Suncorp specifically excludes damage by flood.  Its policy defines flood as;


> Damage or loss caused by flood. Flood means the inundation or covering of normally dry land by water which:
> 
> escapes or overflows from, or
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (6 January 2011)

I don't suppose AAMI necessarily has the same policy conditions as SUN just because it's owned by them.

Googling for an answer offers more confusion, including SUN's website.

The Courier Mail probably offers a reasonable summary:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/lifestyle/flood-insurance-can-be-a-trap/story-e6frer4f-1225699034428

Are there any SUN customers here?  What is your understanding of what your cover includes re floods?


----------



## Whiskers (7 January 2011)

While this comment from Julia's Courier Mail link seems reasonable on face value, it is not always true.



> "Consumers must read the fine print and ask upfront to determine that the exact flood/storm coverage they want is what is on offer," Mr Zenas says.




Too often people don't or can't destinguish between 'Puffery" and promise and sometimes companys deliberately mislead in part by advertising, then try to escape legal unscionscionability by arguing the advertising was puff, ie clearly exaggerated and not intended to form part of the contract. People tend to see or hear the advertising and form a large part of their decision making on that. It's a bit of a gray area but that's where if there is disparity between the literal letter of the contract and stated intent of the contract is is not mutually understood let alone accepted, the law looks at the wider surrounding circumstance to determine the true intentions.

Which brings me back to...



Julia said:


> Whiskers, whilst I admire your zeal, I would be surprised if the documentation provided by insurance companies doesn't absolutely cover them in this regard.
> 
> I know my policy clearly states I have flood cover from storm/run off/rain, but not if flood is caused by inundation from river, dam etc.  It's quite clear.
> 
> Claiming that a sales rep told a customer they were fully covered regardless of source of flood is imo unlikely to be much use.  Sales rep would deny having made such an assurance (and frankly I doubt they would have said anything like this in the first place).




One of the conditions that must be met after Offer and Acceptance for a contract to be binding is 'Mutuality', put simply that both parties are agreeing on the same terms and conditions. Just by there being something in the fine print doesn't make it mutually understood. A large part of the cases against Sub Prime mortgage lenders and brokers in the US is centered around the aspect of Mutuality, such as false and misleading information to fraud.

Recently a class action was launched against a branch of the Macquarie Bank about free offers with phone contracts that turned out to be a loan from a third party. In essance the class action alleged that Macquarie deliberately designed a contract so that the cover with some additional terms and conditions on the back could and was left off the main body of the contract without the consumer realising there was more to the contract, and pinned back on after the contract was signed to appear as though the loan terms and conditions that activated if and when the communications company went bust, ie the free gifts from the phone company reverted to a debt to the third party that financed the free gifts, were always there and tried to enforce the loan contract on top of the phone contract.

I don't think the case has finished yet, but from what I understand with numerous customers and some down the line staff and agents confirming what was going on, it should be a new low in terms of contractural precedent and unconscionable conduct, in particular that just because a company claims certain details are in the contract, certainly doesn't mean that they were there when the customer signed the contract let alone that they were mutually agreed. In this case it's more about fraud being causal to there being no possibility of 'Mutuality' of understanding. 

The final aspect of contract law for a contract to be enforcable is 'Legality'. That is every aspect of the contract from the advertising to the offer and acceptance communication, to the subject matter must all be legal. If any aspect is not 'legal' there is scope to invalidate the contract and or seek damages.

Those of us with a little legalist knowledge know every body of law has a considerable section dedicated to very specific, explicit and implied meanings and or definitions.

Many industries have Ã‡odes of Conduct' (which become law by defacto, where there is no speciific legislation) that also have similar reference to meanings and definitions. What we are facing here is an insurance industry that wants to stay as vague and unaccountable as possible. 




> I did read in some media yesterday a statement from Suncorp saying that their customers would be fully covered regardless of the source of any inundation.
> 
> Seems like a good PR move from SUN.  You'd have to think the number of customers flocking to them, even if they are not in flood prone areas, would compensate for any extra pay outs.




Yeah, sort of a ponzi scheme principle... chuck out a few crumbs to stave off more substantial legal suits and lure in some new premiums to pay for it.



> Hopefully this event will make some people realise that insurance is a necessity, not an option.




I used to think so, but finding that often you don't get what you are fully intitled to without a fight and now not only with flood insurance, but right across the board the list of exceptons and exemptions from cover seem to be growing to the point where you simply cannot get insurance for the main and most damaging risks in many cases. The insurance cover is pretty hollow in most cases. 

While I know you live in Queensland, Julia, I don't know your elevation, but suspect that if you are not in a known flood plain or close to the worst historic flood levels, then having flood insurance is nothing more than a gift to the insurance company isn't it?

It's a bit like having insurance against a foot thick snow blanket in Alice Springs... as useful as t1ts on a bull as they say. 

What's happening is the worst affected by floods, ie the lower levels, too often can't get proper flood insurance, because the insurers won't accept the risk at any price. 

One of two things have to happen. Either the state impose certain conditions on the insurers license to force them to accept a quota of high risk insurances and offer insurance at some price to all... sorta like the bond market auctions in the US where the banks are compelled to turn up and make an offer at some price.

The other is that Local Councils be banned form zoning land that insurance companies will not offer insurance on.


----------



## GumbyLearner (7 January 2011)

rcm617 said:


> to do something useful like go cotton chipping in 40 degree heat .




Yes. Really tough and exhausting work. Did it for 6 weeks on the Darling Downs during my undergrad. Couldn't imagine doing it all my life though! 

P.S Paid for my books for a semester.


----------



## GumbyLearner (7 January 2011)

GumbyLearner said:


> Yes. Really tough and exhausting work. Did it for 6 weeks on the Darling Downs during my undergrad. Couldn't imagine doing it all my life though!
> 
> P.S Paid for my books for a semester.




I heard rumours that back in 'Nam even the likes of GG worked part-time on cotton crops. While pursuing a career at AC Nielsen!


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## grace (8 January 2011)

My first ever paid job was cotton chipping in 40degree heat.  It was good money for Uni students, but very hard work.  I couldn't do it now, and cotton is roundup ready anyway.

Went off camping this week.  Two hour return trip took 12 hours because of flood water.

We have young children, and the 12 hour drive was the safest bet.  We watched though as some young people found joy in going back and forth flat strap in flood water (water that we wouldn't go through in our 4WD, nor was anyone else all waiting on both sides of the crossing).  Luckily no harm came to them, but you can see why the emergency service crews are sick of people being stupid.


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## Knobby22 (10 January 2011)

See in the news that some places are looking like flooding again within a month due to new rain.

Unbelievable, feel for you guys up there.


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## sval62 (10 January 2011)

A little bit of light relief for a drastic situation.

During the recent floods a young girl was perched on a a roof with a little boy. As they
sat watching the debris float past, the young girl noticed a hat go past. Suddenly the
hat turned and came back,then turned around and went back downstream again.
After it had gone some distance it turned and came back again. They watched this 
a number of times.
 "Isn't that amazing" the young girl said.
 "Not really" the boy replied "Its only my dad"
 "This morning my mum said that come hell or high water,he had to mow the lawns 
  today"


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## Solly (10 January 2011)

Toowoomba Floods, cars getting washed down West Creek at the Herries St Bridge

Link courtesy of tweet from Matt Watson 4BC


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## Whiskers (10 January 2011)

Solly said:


> Toowoomba Floods, cars getting washed down West Creek at the Herries St Bridge
> 
> Link courtesy of tweet from Matt Watson 4BC





Yeah, incredible stuff! What a mess that sort of flow is going to make.

Even the coastal rivers, the Mary  at Gympie is starting to flood the town and still rising, the Mary at Maryborough is problematic and going to get worse when in a couple of days when the Gympie water arrives and the Burnett at Bundaberg had fallen to within 2 or 3 meters above normal, but today it has risen a couple of meters again with more water from the upper reaches still to come and more rain expected for a couple of days in the Burnett and Mary catchments.

But even Brisbane might get swamped yet and Parliament house in George St is pretty vulnerabe. Won't that cause a bit of chaos!


----------



## Julia (10 January 2011)

Radio news this evening said a 'wall of water' rushed into the Toowoomba CBD today and swept several people away.  One confirmed dead and several others missing, presumed dead.

Emergency services have said they are simply unable to meet the demand.

Why on earth hasn't the government got the army on the ground in these devastated areas?  It should absolutely not be up to a group of volunteers in the SES to try to deal with such unprecedented conditions.

Solly, that video is just terrifying.  A person just wouldn't stand a chance with a force of water like that.  

The whole situation seems to be getting worse.

Knobby, thank you for the thought.


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## Calliope (11 January 2011)

The flood devastation in the Lockyer Valley, in which it is reported there have been several deaths and scores missing, has no connection with the avalanche of water that swept through the Toowoomba CBD.

Any water through Toowoomba flows to the *West*, not the East. The media can't get their minds around this. e.g. in the Courier-Mail;



> Through Toowoomba city and down to the Lockyer Valley, the torrent washed houses off their stumps and snapped 4m-high trees at the base of their trunks.


----------



## awg (11 January 2011)

A few observations as a result of flooding we recieved a few years back in Newcastle.

It didnt recieve much publicity, but things were severe in some parts.

We qualified and recieved Disaster relief, Insurance payout, and no power for 1 week.


First, I feel really sorry for everyone affected, especially as the Wet season is likely to be very wet imo.

Second...Insurance...most insurance does not cover floods, but storm damage is covered. In most cases if a known river floes thru, your policy probably precludes that, unless you have bought specific flood Insurance.

In addition, most are insufficiently covered for contents.

Once running water has been thru a house above the floorboards, your power and sewerage are inoperable. You cannot reconnect the power till it is checked and deemed safe by qualified electrician.

If it has been really wet, the electrical system will probably be a write-off.

Almost all wooden floor and plaster needs to be replaced.

A lack of builders and electricians means this takes ages.

The situation of my own place, is that it was built with a design flaw so serious that it cannot be economically rectified...it blocks the flow of water downhill.

My alternatives are to move, demolish or mitigate.

I have lived here over 30yrs, and after much research about weather, hydrology, plumbing, engineering and local history, I have learned a great deal about the issues.

One of the main issues is that water will follow its natural course. Nature does not care if you have filled and built over the watercourse..it may flow only every 30 years.
However, once the soil becomes completely saturated by an abnormal rain event, all further water will run off, and follow gravity, and its channel.

Hydraulic force is an amazing thing. A mansion near me was destroyed, because the water channel undermined the concrete slab and the house broke in two.

My own property had this risk, so I installed various pumps ( no good without power tho, so now I have generators as well) and other measures.

Its a long drawn out issue, and I found the ignorance and lack of care by various Council officials and tradesmen that should no better to be really quite disturbing.

I feel that it is likely that the damage bill will incomprehensible, as that degree of submersion in deep, hard running water will have undermined the foundations of so many buildings and roads that they would need to be completely rebuilt


----------



## ghotib (11 January 2011)

Good wishes and good luck to ALSers in the flood areas. 

In 1974 I was working on a property just below Copeton Dam in northern NSW. Those floods filled the dam for the first time, and then went on to become part of a huge inland flood on the Darling/Murray system. One of my jobs was to drive down to the river gauge and then phone the height through to the bureau. We were cut off from towns for a while but we knew we were safe. The water flow was still awesome. So was the stink when the water finally went down, and that was on rural land. 

Stay calm and take care folks.

Ghoti


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## Tink (11 January 2011)

Very sad, I feel for all up there.

Does remind me very much of the Vic fires, every morning was more devastation.

Thoughts are with you all, stay safe


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## Knobby22 (11 January 2011)

Last night on the ABC a reporter said it was now officially the worst floods ever.
Brisbane would have been flooded if they hadn't put the dam in after the last one to protect the City. The dam is full now so they really need the rain to stop.

Believe Towoomba sits within the dividing range so water readily runs off (not in a flood plain) but the intense rain (mini tsunumi) caused a flash flood which no one could have expected.
Maybe 20 dead in the surrounding area including little children. Absolutely terrible. 

Victoria Bureau of Meterology is now expecting flash floods out west in the semi arid areas!

What is going on with the weather??


----------



## Calliope (11 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> Last night on the ABC a reporter said it was now officially the worst floods ever.
> Brisbane would have been flooded if they hadn't put the dam in after the last one to protect the City. The dam is full now so they really need the rain to stop.




The people of Queensland can thank Bjelke-Petersen for his foresight in dam building. Under a Labor government it would never happen. Jo did not worry about the greenies and the NIMBYs.



> Considerable development of the state's infrastructure took place during the Bjelke-Petersen era. He was a leading proponent of *Wivenhoe* and Burdekin Dams, encouraging the modernising and electrifying of the Queensland railway system, and the construction of the Gateway Bridge. Airports, coal mines, power stations, and dams were built throughout the state. James Cook University was established. In Brisbane, the Queensland Cultural Centre, Griffith University, the South East Freeway, and the Captain Cook, Gateway and Merivale bridges were all constructed, as well as the Parliamentary Annexe that was attached to Queensland Parliament House. Bjelke-Petersen was one of the instigators of World Expo 88 (now South Bank Parklands]) and the 1982 Brisbane Commonwealth Games.



 (Wikipedia)


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## Knobby22 (11 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> The people of Queensland can thank Bjelke-Petersen for his foresight in dam building. Under a Labor government it would never happen. Jo did not worry about the greenies and the NIMBYs.
> 
> (Wikipedia)




Jo did a great job for Queensland but I don't think you can say Labor would never have built it. They did build the Snowy Mountain scheme under Chifley etc. The times were different.

“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” 
 Leslie Poles Hartley quotes (English Writer, 1895-1972)


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## awg (11 January 2011)

I hear they are saying their is a dam saving Brisbane from being flooded, which is good 

With regard to preventing large scale flooding in general, there is only very limited options, from what I have been hearing, it is not possible to build dams with large enough volume to restrain the volume discharge..ie Rockhampton x times Sydney harbour each day.

In the situation where there are options to build dams, it means subsuming vast areas of prime land. ( if they are to be of use in flood control)

The "expert" on ABC radio today was utterly scathing of excessive dam building proposals, he said they absolutely cannot work in the instance of a flood such as the one in QLD.


----------



## sails (11 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> ...What is going on with the weather??




A wake up call of the cyclic nature of weather patterns?  If more dams had been built after the last major floods, perhaps this would have been a different story. 

Peter Garrett stopped the Traverston dam.  That probably wouldn't have been finished in time for these floods, but would possibly have saved some of the grief. Any thoughts?

Apparently Wivenhoe dam has prevented major flooding in some parts of Brisbane so far, but even it can only hold so much. Tense time for those in it's pathway.

Sincere sympathies to those affected.  It is gut wrenching to watch the media coverage and having been through some minor flooding on a few occasions, it is unbelievable how much damage stinky water and mud can do.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 January 2011)

sails said:


> Peter Garrett stopped the Traverston dam.  That probably wouldn't have been finished in time for these floods, but would possibly have saved some of the grief. Any thoughts?
> 
> .




After attacks from Warren Truss, leader of the Nationals who didn't want the dam built.
As I said times are different.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/11/2739725.htm


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## sails (11 January 2011)

awg said:


> ...The "expert" on ABC radio today was utterly scathing of excessive dam building proposals, he said they absolutely cannot work in the instance of a flood such as the one in QLD.




Hmmm, I wonder if he is just a text book "expert" who has never gone through a flood that may have been preventable with a dam.

I agree that dams won't protect everybody, but they do help. Without Wivenhoe, they are saying Brisbane would be a repeat (if not worse) than the devastating 1974 floods.  I don't see how anyone can say well positioned dams are totally useless.


----------



## Wysiwyg (11 January 2011)

You don't build dams to protect people in the rare instances of flooding. Dry rivers & tributaries during the (most of the time) drier periods will be the result. Man trying to control nature comes back to bite!


----------



## sails (11 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> After attacks from Warren Truss, leader of the Nationals who didn't want the dam built.
> As I said times are different.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/11/2739725.htm




Thanks Knobby.   It was finally Garrett's call though.  In the excerpt from the article you posted above, Garrett based his decision on preserving wildlife and nothing to do with Truss's views.



> "I have based my proposed decision on the science presented to me, and the science shows that this project would have serious and irreversible effects on nationally listed species such as the Australian lungfish, the Mary River turtle and the Mary River cod," Mr Garrett said.




Building dams is often an unpopular decision at the time.  However, those whose lives have been spared ravaging flood waters by the dams would possibly far out number the few that were initially affected.  It would be politically a tough thing to do - that is until the floods come.


----------



## joea (11 January 2011)

Hi.
I think Anna Bligh is showing a responsible forte of leadership in responding to the QLD. flood issues. 
These are very trying times and she has responded well.

Cheers


----------



## derty (11 January 2011)

sails said:


> Peter Garrett stopped the Traverston dam.  That probably wouldn't have been finished in time for these floods, but would possibly have saved some of the grief. Any thoughts?



The proposed Traverston Dam had a planned capacity of 153GL, it would have been full prior to this event as almost all of the dams in the SE QLD catchment are already full. The Wivenhoe dams stated capacity is about 1000GL and it is currently at 2000GL, which is probably close to the limits of it's flood mitigation capacity. So if the Traverston Dam had been built it would have been like it wasn't there yesterday.

FYI: the flow rates of rivers is commonly expressed in multiples of Sydney Harbour. 1 Sydney Harbour = ~500GL. The Fitzroy flow rate when Rocky was flooding was around 1.5 Sydney Harbours per day = 750GL/day. That would have fillled an empty Traverston Dam in about 5 hours and a bone dry Wivenhoe Dam to it's current level in about 2.6 days.


----------



## sails (11 January 2011)

joea said:


> Hi.
> I think Anna Bligh is showing a responsible forte of leadership in responding to the QLD. flood issues.
> These are very trying times and she has responded well.
> 
> Cheers




I agree Joea.  She is showing genuine compassion which wasn't quite so evident in the early stages.  She seems to be stepping up to the plate in dealing with a horrific disaster of massive proportions - not an easy task by any means.


----------



## sails (11 January 2011)

derty said:


> The proposed Traverston Dam had a planned capacity of 153GL, it would have been full prior to this event as almost all of the dams in the SE QLD catchment are already full. The Wivenhoe dams stated capacity is about 1000GL and it is currently at 2000GL, which is probably close to the limits of it's flood mitigation capacity. So if the Traverston Dam had been built it would have been like it wasn't there yesterday.
> 
> FYI: the flow rates of rivers is commonly expressed in multiples of Sydney Harbour. 1 Sydney Harbour = ~500GL. The Fitzroy flow rate when Rocky was flooding was around 1.5 Sydney Harbours per day = 750GL/day. That would have fillled an empty Traverston Dam in about 5 hours and a bone dry Wivenhoe Dam to it's current level in about 2.6 days.




Thanks for the technicals, Derty...

I agree that the amount of water coming down from the sky is more like a river than rain.  We are talking bizarre weather conditons for sure.


----------



## Calliope (11 January 2011)

We ain't seen nuthin yet.



> RAIN, rain, rain – the Sunshine Coast has seen a lot of it in the past few weeks, and with more expected during the coming months there are fears of a repeat of the record-breaking floods and rainfall of 1893.
> 
> Over 24 hours on Sunday and yesterday Peachester had 298mm of rain, its wettest January day since 1974.
> 
> ...




http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2011/01/11/cylones-on-way-too-says-walker/

Peachester and Crohamhurst are at the headwaters of the Stanley which feeds into the Brisbane below the Somerset Dam and then into the Wivenhoe Dam.


----------



## Whiskers (11 January 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> You don't build dams to protect people in the rare instances of flooding. Dry rivers & tributaries during the (most of the time) drier periods will be the result. Man trying to control nature comes back to bite!




I totally agree, Wysiwyg.

There are numerous consequences for the local ecosystems when a large dam is built. The most obvious example of which we already suffer supply deficiencies is Fish. Many fish and marine life need to navigate from the upper reaches to the sea in their breeding and life cycle. Also, it's often not enough to just release a steady trickle downstream for the enviornment. 

*The weather works in cycles for a reason and many humans fail to grasp that and adjust their circumstances accordingly*, especially in the government planning agencies, such as allowing too much urban development in known flood planes without the equal amount of risk management protocols, such as emergency evacuation systems. The SES is just so unresoursed.

Too often the local damage is amplified by development, such as sealing large areas with bitumen and concrete and not allowing sufficient additional runoff resources for water that would ordinarily soak into the ground. 

Then we have meddled with the watercourses usually restricting their capacity with concrete channels and pipes.

But probably the biggest problem is over clearing vegetation from flood plains. This allows the water flow to acelerate in the upper reaches of river systems and arrive at densly populated towns and cities down stream on the coast a bit quicker... then slow down and back up as it strikes development in the flood plain, such as bridges, reclaimed swamp land used for warfs and industrial facilities and general urban and business buildings on the flood plain. 

I doubt the Traverston dam would totally mitigate Gympie and Maryborough on the Mary River from flood damage any more than the Wivenhoe dam will totally mitigate Brisbane form flood damage. Wivenhoe has been frantically releasing water for some weeks to try to avoid overflowing the spillway which could happen very soon with another decent rain event. Then the 'Flood Mitigation' effect will be worthless and the damage potentially worse if town planning lowered the 'flood' level for development purposes.




derty said:


> The proposed Traverston Dam had a planned capacity of 153GL, it would have been full prior to this event as almost all of the dams in the SE QLD catchment are already full. The Wivenhoe dams stated capacity is about 1000GL and it is currently at 2000GL, which is probably close to the limits of it's flood mitigation capacity. So if the Traverston Dam had been built it would have been like it wasn't there yesterday.
> 
> FYI: the flow rates of rivers is commonly expressed in multiples of Sydney Harbour. 1 Sydney Harbour = ~500GL. The Fitzroy flow rate when Rocky was flooding was around 1.5 Sydney Harbours per day = 750GL/day. That would have fillled an empty Traverston Dam in about 5 hours and a bone dry Wivenhoe Dam to it's current level in about 2.6 days.




PS:Thanks derty, I see you have done the technical stuff derty for my arguement. 

That easy to remember ratio and conjunction with local flow rates is worth repeating to permanently imprent in our psysic for consideration of our next elected officials and their development and planning policies.


----------



## Julia (11 January 2011)

joea said:


> Hi.
> I think Anna Bligh is showing a responsible forte of leadership in responding to the QLD. flood issues.
> These are very trying times and she has responded well.
> 
> Cheers



I agree.  And so have various mayors of flooded centres.
Even the Prime Minister in her speech today sounded genuinely affected by the horror of the loss of life.  I don't know who wrote the speech, but it was well done in content and delivery.

For once her slow enunciation seemed appropriate.


----------



## Julia (11 January 2011)

In case it all gets worse again in this area I thought I'd find out where the evacuation centres will be for this town of 53,000 people.

Unbelievably, there is NO PLAN for any such centre.  Nothing.  Zilch.

Have been blithely informed that people are expected to make their own arrangements.

Well, how good is that!  A significant proportion of the population are quite elderly, many won't have cars.  Some of the nursing homes are on very low lying land.  
Where would these people go?  I just can't believe they can be so negligent.

Might give the media a call.


----------



## Wysiwyg (11 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> *The weather works in cycles for a reason and many humans fail to grasp that and adjust their circumstances accordingly*, especially in the government planning agencies, such as allowing too much urban development in known flood planes without the equal amount of risk management protocols, such as emergency evacuation systems.



That is exactly how I feel. Most of us have life experiences considered both subjectively good or bad. Strangely, people think they are above nature. 

I wonder what others think of helping out with donations in this particular situation? Let people have their life experiences or assist with donations from a compassionate viewpoint?

My general view is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


----------



## Duckman#72 (11 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> I doubt the Traverston dam would totally mitigate Gympie and Maryborough on the Mary River from flood damage any more than the Wivenhoe dam will totally mitigate Brisbane form flood damage.




I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Traverston dam would totally solve the flooding issues of Gympie and Maryborough, however it is deceptive and dishonest to indicate that it would have had no impact. Government modelling suggests that the river peak could have been up to 4 metres lower with the dam and using controlled release. Environmental issues are another story.

Try telling the people of Theodore who at the moment are currently cleaning dead animals, rotten food, sludge and broken memories out of their homes, that a Nathan Dam (with a capacity of 1,000,000 megalitres) would have been no assistance to them on the Dawson River a fortnight ago. This dam has been "in the pipeline" for over 25 years and has been delayed because of Boggomoss Snails, sacred aboriginal sites, rare frogs and the latest was the potential impact on the Great Barrier Reef. Ironically I see on the TV one of the conservationists that fought against the dam was saying last week what a disaster the Fitzroy flood has been for tourism, commercial fishing and the marine life on the reef.    

Duckman


----------



## sails (11 January 2011)

The Brisbane river broke it's banks a couple of hours ago - Wivenhoe is up to capacity.  Have family living in Cooparoo so will be watching closely.

And to think we call this the sunshine state...


----------



## Calliope (11 January 2011)

I just had a phone call from my son who lives in Brisbane. They have taken in friends who have had to evacuate their house at Fig Tree Pocket. They are keeping in contact with other friends who may need assistance.


----------



## moXJO (11 January 2011)

Anyone know where to find info on road closures on the Sydney to gold coast run?
 The wife and kids drove up to the gold coast last week to visit relations, so now I am thinking of flying up and driving them all back. Don't want to get stuck somewhere along the way though.


----------



## Logique (11 January 2011)

It just gets worse, Queensland are in all sorts. 

The Premier announced this afternoon that the flood level through Brisbane CBD is likely now to exceed the 1974 levels. And the BOM say a wet few months are ahead.

QLD appears to consist of people being winched into helicopters from the roofs of their houses, or floating along on the roofs of their cars.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 January 2011)

Logique said:


> The Premier announced this afternoon that the flood level through Brisbane CBD is likely now to exceed the 1974 levels. And the BOM say a wet few months are ahead.



What sort of area are we talking about relative to Brisbane as a whole?

Are we talking about only the CBD and a few nearby suburbs being flooded or are we talking about a large part of Brisbane going under water?


----------



## Wysiwyg (11 January 2011)

sails said:


> Building dams is often an unpopular decision at the time.  However, those whose lives have been spared ravaging flood waters by the dams would possibly far out number the few that were initially affected.  It would be politically a tough thing to do - that is until the floods come.



Ironically, the dam operators are going to flood the Brisbane River. Hope the good people of Brizzy aren't affected greatly.


----------



## Whiskers (11 January 2011)

moXJO said:


> Anyone know where to find info on road closures on the Sydney to gold coast run?
> The wife and kids drove up to the gold coast last week to visit relations, so now I am thinking of flying up and driving them all back. Don't want to get stuck somewhere along the way though.




The RACQ has some information here http://www.racq.com.au/travel/Maps_and_Directions/road_conditions

Maybe the NSW equivilant has something similar.


----------



## IFocus (11 January 2011)

You would think walking down the street in Towoomba would be safe, hoping the toll doesn't get to much bigger

Predictions of further events through to April likely more heart break to come Australia will need to throw its support behind the flood victims for some time I think.


----------



## Whiskers (11 January 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> Ironically, the dam operators are going to flood the Brisbane River. Hope the good people of Brizzy aren't affected greatly.




Ironic may be an understatement! 



> *'Catastrophic'*
> Professor Chanson says the dam operators have been progressively releasing water from the dam to prevent it filling.
> 
> "If the Wivenhoe become full up to the stage where the water in the reservoir is very close to the crest of the dam, it would mean a situation where the operators of the dam would have to open fully the gate of the spillway," he said.
> ...


----------



## Whiskers (11 January 2011)

Duckman#72 said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Traverston dam would totally solve the flooding issues of Gympie and Maryborough, however it is deceptive and dishonest to indicate that it would have had no impact. Government modelling suggests that the river peak could have been up to 4 metres lower with the dam and using controlled release. Environmental issues are another story.
> 
> Try telling the people of Theodore who at the moment are currently cleaning dead animals, rotten food, sludge and broken memories out of their homes, that a Nathan Dam (with a capacity of 1,000,000 megalitres) would have been no assistance to them on the Dawson River a fortnight ago. This dam has been "in the pipeline" for over 25 years and has been delayed because of Boggomoss Snails, sacred aboriginal sites, rare frogs and the latest was the potential impact on the Great Barrier Reef. Ironically I see on the TV one of the conservationists that fought against the dam was saying last week what a disaster the Fitzroy flood has been for tourism, commercial fishing and the marine life on the reef.
> 
> Duckman




I understand your point Duckman, but the Wivenhoe principle is to minimise or negate many low level flood events. The problem is that how big is big enough to be safe.



> *Flood Mitigation* During a flood situation, Wivenhoe Dam is designed to hold back a further 1.45 million megalitres as well as its normal storage capacity of 1.15 million megalitres. Floods may still occur in the Ipswich and Brisbane areas but they will be rarer in occurrence. Wivenhoe’s flood control facility, together with the existing flood mitigation effect of Somerset Dam, will substantially reduce the heights of relatively small floods.
> 
> It is anticipated that during a large flood similar in magnitude to that experienced in 1974, by using mitigation facility within Wivenhoe Dam, flood levels will be reduced downstream by an estimated 2 metres.
> 
> Full supply level or 100 percent capacity (in the water level analysis) is indicative of the optimum level intended for town water supply, and does not take flood mitigation levels into account. http://www.seqwater.com.au/public/catch-store-treat/dams/wivenhoe-dam




The authorities underestimated the intensity of this rain event.

If the catchment gets follow up events like the cloud burst near Toowoomba, the risk of the Wivenhoe wall failing increases dramatically... then we will have a flood and disaster of unprecedented proportions and then some.

PS: Is the premier worried about a possible dam burst? She looks grim saying (on the TV news) these releases are not optional, they are necessary to operate the dam as it was designed and to protect the people down stream.


----------



## nioka (11 January 2011)

moXJO said:


> Anyone know where to find info on road closures on the Sydney to gold coast run?
> The wife and kids drove up to the gold coast last week to visit relations, so now I am thinking of flying up and driving them all back. Don't want to get stuck somewhere along the way though.




As a resident on the northern end of the run. I suggest "leave them there this week" as the area now only needs another good storm and the roads will be cut in a few places. Even last Friday it took me half an hour before I got out of sight of my home with water over the Pacific highway backed up by a high tide.


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## Whiskers (11 January 2011)

This is the rainfall chart for Brisbane to 9.00 yesterday, 10th Jan.

The heavy falls couldn't have fallen more plump over the Brisbane River catchment if you tried.


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## Smurf1976 (11 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> I understand your point Duckman, but the Wivenhoe principle is to minimise or negate many low level flood events. The problem is that how big is big enough to be safe.
> 
> ...
> 
> PS: Is the premier worried about a possible dam burst? She looks grim saying (on the TV news) these releases are not optional, they are necessary to operate the dam as it was designed and to protect the people down stream.



It is a fact that the water stored in Wivenhoe dam is water that would otherwise have flowed downstream.

It could be expected that capturing some water upstream, would reduce the frequency of flooding downstream although it may be of little benefit in an extreme event. That is, the presence of a flood control dam will avoid a lot of smaller floods but will not avoid a catastrophic flood event. 

That scenario is very common to virtually all safety devices and systems. For example, A seatbelt and air bag will reduce the risk of injury in most motor vehicle accidents but is of no real benefit in a head-on collision between a car and a large truck at highway speed.

Aircraft safety systems and the life jackets we are all told can be found under the seats may well help under a moderate emergency scenario. But if a wing falls off the plane then no amount of oxygen masks and life jackets fitted with whistles and lights is going to save you.

It's basically the same with most safety-related systems. Your chances of avoiding a moderate incident, or surviving it, are greatly improved. But in a worst case scenario the safety systems are basically useless. Same with flood control dams.

Looking at another flood where I have some figures, the Hobart floods of 1960, it is a fact that Hydro dams retained about 30% of the water upstream in the Derwent catchment. Likewise Hobart City Council dams retained significant amounts of water upstream in the Hobart Rivulet (Mt Wellington) catchment. Had this water not been retained, flooding in the CBD and at towns in the Derwent Valley would have been far worse than it was. 

Likewise the frequency of flooding in the Huonville area has decreased since Lake Pedder was dammed in 1972. Prior to that, floods were more frequent in the Huon.

But all that said, if a truly major rainfall event occurs then Brisbane, Hobart, Huonville and everywhere else near a river are going to be flooded no matter how many dams (within practical limits...) have been built upstream. Flood control dams will avoid 95% of floods, but they won't stop the really big one.

As for a dam burst, rockfill dams in general are not designed to cope with water flowing directly over the top of the dam structure. There are exceptions which do have spillways on the downstream face of a rockfill dam, but Wivenhoe is not such an exception. If the dam were to overflow as such, as distinct from simply being on spill, then serious erosion and consequent collapse would be a real possibility.

In reality however I would not be overly concerned about the risk of a flood resulting in structural failure of Wivenhoe dam. It is not totally impossible, but if there is to be a flood of that magnitude then there isn't going to be much left of Brisbane with or without Wivenhoe bursting. Wivenhoe was built for flood control and has huge spillways, indeed the gates are amongs the largest in the world. It's not as though it's doesn't have a spillway or anything like that (actually, there are some pretty large dams around that don't have spillways but there is sound engineering behind that - it comes down to catchment area versus storage capacity).

As of 9am this morning, there were 2050 GL in Wivenhoe versus full supply level (flood control) of 2615 GL and normal FSL (for water supply purposes) of 1165 GL. Information from SEQ Water. 

In layman's terms, that means the dam is normally allowed to fill up to 1165 GL, with any surplus water being released via the spillway. However, the actual capacity of the dam is 2615 GL. The reason for normally keeping the level lower is to enable the additional storage of flood waters in an emergency such as the one we have now.  

So why are they letting water out if the dam is not likely to burst? The basic aim is to hold back as much as possible when it matters most given that capacity of the dam is limited. That is, someone has done the maths (hopefully) and worked out that flooding will be less if some water is let out now, such that more can be held back around the time when river levels are expected to peak. Obviously there's a bit of estimation being done there, but that is the theory. Trying to lessen the overall severity of flooding through manipulation of water release rates. 

If I were in Brisbane right now then Wivenhoe dam bursting would be the least of my worries. I would be more concerned about whether or not the water coming out of it (Brisbane's water supply) will remain safe to drink. Likewise I would be more concerned about all the other consequences of the flood. 

A dam could burst yes. And a bridge could collapse and you could be struck by lightning. Assuming that nobody does anything silly, like trying to operate outside the dam's safe operating criteria (let the engineers make the decisions on water release, not politicians), then I wouldn't be worried about the dam itself.


----------



## Miner (11 January 2011)

folks

I am sure we all are very much concerned on the outcome (and reasons) of the flood to the people of Qld directly and the ripple effect on the whole nation.
On a macro economic level it will affect our GDP as well.

Without any rhetoric, may I urge if you please consider ;

to donate at least $50 per person  in your family or 2% of your net profits in the next 10 days from stock transaction *whichever is more* to a suitable fund for the flood victims. I am sure many have already done it.  

Money comes and goes. 

I am sure whatever small it is the kindness will be a great boost up for the affected people.

Submitted for your kind consideration

Regards

Miner


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## drsmith (11 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> Trying to lessen the overall severity of flooding through manipulation of water release rates.



Given the Bureau of Meteorology rainfall outlook (Jan-Mar), a decision could have been made to let some of the normal storage go in anticipation of higher than normal rainfall.

This would have been a brave call though, in light of the preceeding drought.


----------



## easylikesunday (11 January 2011)

Thoughts go out to the familys in QLD!

Used to live up there, great place.


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## pedalofogus (11 January 2011)

Wivenhoe is at 190% now, and we are all worried about what will happen if it overflows.

I live in ipswich and have just finished helping a few friends clear out there houses as they are about to go under. Even though I live in a high area, will certainly sleep with one eye open tonite. I wish all my fellow ipswich and Brisbane residents a safe night


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## Julia (11 January 2011)

pedalofogus said:


> Wivenhoe is at 190% now, and we are all worried about what will happen if it overflows.
> 
> I live in ipswich and have just finished helping a few friends clear out there houses as they are about to go under. Even though I live in a high area, will certainly sleep with one eye open tonite. I wish all my fellow ipswich and Brisbane residents a safe night



All the best, pedalofogus.  My sympathies are with you.  Lying awake and listening to that incessant thundering of torrential rain is a sound I could live without for the rest of my life.  Hope it turns out to be less serious than it's looking for Ipswich at present.


----------



## sails (11 January 2011)

Smurf, thanks for the detailed explanation re the Wivenhoe.  With family not too far from the Brisbane river, it's somewhat re-assuring to know the unlikely event of the dam collapsing...

That said, it looks like the family will be coming tomorrow to stay with us for a few days while the danger passes.  Hopefully the Gold Coast remains clear of this disaster - it's getting a bit close for comfort...

And all the best to you, pedalofogus, and trust your friends are OK.  It will be a tense couple of days ahead.


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## drsmith (11 January 2011)

With regard to the current situation, the Queensland Police have posted suburb by suburb links to flood maps for Brisbane.

http://www.facebook.com/QueenslandPolice?v=app_10442206389

Same thing from Brisbane City Council.

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/#suburbs

The above maps may not be relaible re the current situation.

The following (also linked from Brisbane City Council) shows much worse flooding for the CBD than the individual suburb maps.

http://media.bcc.ireckon.com/media/Fig128_12000_Inun_east.pdf


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## Calliope (11 January 2011)

Brisbane suburbs at risk of flooding.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/infographics/qld-floods/brisbane.htm

It is expected 9000 businesses and residences will go under.


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2011)

Now they're going to turn the power off in Brisbane. 

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...-by-power-outage/story-fn7ik2te-1225985877740

Note that once you lose mains power, you have also effectively lost most other critical infrastructure which depends on electricity to function. This whole situation just keeps getting worse...


----------



## J&M (12 January 2011)

The rain has eased now 
The power in the suburb I am in may go off tomorrow 
My house is on the high ground we have had some water leaking in the lower floor 
nothing major at all 

They have advised everyone to stay home if the can to keep the roads free 

Looking like the river will  peak on the high tide this Thursday

just heart breaking watching the news

Stay safe: don't take any chances and stay home if you can 

James


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## GumbyLearner (12 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> Now they're going to turn the power off in Brisbane.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...-by-power-outage/story-fn7ik2te-1225985877740
> 
> Note that once you lose mains power, you have also effectively lost most other critical infrastructure which depends on electricity to function. This whole situation just keeps getting worse...




and only at the beginning of the wet season Smurf. Let's hope a couple of cyclones don't blow in this month and turn into southerly directed tropical rain depressions. 

I know someone in Brisvegas who will lose all the stuff in their house and/or their entire property by the looks of things at this stage. Let's see how the Wivenhoe catchment release project works and according to the projected outflows?  Scary stuff!


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## white_crane (12 January 2011)

All the best to those who may be affected in the coming days.

Up here in North Queensland, I fear our turn is still to come.


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## Calliope (12 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> It is expected 9000 businesses and residences will go under.




This number of properties expected to be affected has been revised upwards to 40,000, which includes 19,700 homes expected to be inundated.


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## J&M (12 January 2011)

our power is back on not sure for how long
The city is not looking good  
Suburbs cut off 9000 houses will be flooded this is changing and seems to be going up  Bridges across the brisbane river are closed 
The industrial estate 500 meters behind me is Sumner's Park is a mass of muddy water
traffic light not working in most suburbs. 
people buying food in the shops the shelves are almost empty 
Choppers flying over my house towards the city center
Mater Hospital is not accessible due to water
We have constant updates on TV and radio and keeps changing  
we only have showers now and are easing
police and S.E.S have been fantastic !!!

My thoughts are for the people worse off then me 

James


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## Wysiwyg (12 January 2011)

Frustration, disappointment, sorrow, heartbreak, grieving. So many in Brisbane experiencing loss.


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## Julia (12 January 2011)

So much thinking of all of you in Brisbane and surrounds.


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## skc (12 January 2011)

Pretty lucky that everything is OK in my part of Brisbane. Can't take my eyes off Twitter with all the photos etc.

The floating restaurant called 'Drift' lived up to its name... http://twitpic.com/3p8y36 

Still ~1m to go for the river to peak at 5.5m tomorrow

http://www.bom.gov.au/fwo/IDQ65389/IDQ65389.540198.plt.shtml#notes


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## Wysiwyg (12 January 2011)

Information relayed via Anna Bligh on television says the Moggill Ferry may be sunk by the military because it is in danger of loosing from its mooring on the bank. The Moggill  Ferry travels across the river on cables and one of these cables is broken with the fear of the Ferry becoming a serious hazard floating down the river so the military may blow it. It is a big unit.


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## Whiskers (12 January 2011)

GumbyLearner said:


> and only at the beginning of the wet season Smurf. !




Quite so! 




white_crane said:


> All the best to those who may be affected in the coming days.
> 
> Up here in North Queensland, I fear our turn is still to come.




Yes, it will. I see in Bundaberg this morning the water has risen and cutting some streets again. I think they are expecting it to peak tonight or tomorrow about 5 meters... a couple of meters short of last time.



GumbyLearner said:


> Let's see how the Wivenhoe catchment release project works and according to the projected outflows?  Scary stuff




Yes, I'm quite interested to see how big of a rain event it can handle, dare I say, before it max's out and the wall fails. You can call me pessimestic, but hardly ever complacent... which I suspect many have become with the assurance of 'Flood Mitigation' dams.



Calliope said:


> This number of properties expected to be affected has been revised upwards to 40,000, which includes 19,700 homes expected to be inundated.




Yeah... and probably worse than 1974... which we were told the Wivenhoe was going to protect us from and never experience again. 

It maybe just me, but I think minor floods are a necessary part of the ecosystem and help to keep us from becoming complacent. On the risk side, I know if I had a choice between relatively frequent smaller incidents that may cause some harm, but are generally considered non life threatening and a one in a hundred year or greater chance where the impact would be devestating and probably fatal...I always go for the former.

Maybe I'm just the odd one out, but I tend to think of risk in terms of the worst case consequences and assess down to something I'm comfortable with, whereas I think a  lot of people assess risk in terms of how likely it is to happen and take less and less precautions as the chance of it happening decreases... leaving them completely overwhelmed when a major event does happen.





> *Brisbane prepares for worst flood in 118 years*
> January 11, 2011
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## derty (12 January 2011)

Live river heights at Brisbane, Ipswich and Wivenhoe:
Brisbane River at City
Bremer River at Ipswich
Brisbane River at Wivenhoe Dam


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## derty (12 January 2011)

Here is a live webcam overlooking the river: http://www.livestream.com/brisbanefloods

just to put the metal things in the water in context:


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## Whiskers (12 January 2011)

derty said:


> Live river heights at Brisbane, Ipswich and Wivenhoe:
> Brisbane River at City
> Bremer River at Ipswich
> Brisbane River at Wivenhoe Dam




I see on that graph at Wivenhoe it's nudging 75 meters, with full supp level apparently 50 meters. 

I've ben unable to find a total wall height, but the max level appears to be 225%, reaching about 192% yesterday and apparently still about 190%, and not going to scale back releases for some time yet.

Where are all the mathematicans and hydrologists... how much more rain will it take in the next two or three days, when it seems not much is going to change in terms of water levels and inflow before the 225% is reached and the wall starts overflowing?


----------



## Calliope (12 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> Yes, I'm quite interested to see how big of a rain event it can handle, dare I say, before it max's out and the wall fails. You can call me pessimestic, but hardly ever complacent... which I suspect many have become with the assurance of 'Flood Mitigation' dams.
> ...
> Yeah... and probably worse than 1974... which we were told the Wivenhoe was going to protect us from and never experience again.




You are very smug. You say "we were told the Wivenhoe was going to protect us". What do you mean by "us"?  No one as smart as you would live in a risk area, surely


----------



## Whiskers (12 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> You are very smug. You say "we were told the Wivenhoe was going to protect us". What do you mean by "us"?  No one as smart as you would live in a risk area, surely




I did live in Brisbane for awhile many years ago, but I seem to have a healty natural instinct to head for the hills to roll out my swag and make camp, so in that respect I am a little smug that I am not caught in the flood waters. 

But I do travel to Bris quite often and rely on the transport corridors to the south side in particular, and am a little peeved off that Brisbane is expected to experience worse than the 1974 flood, in contradiction of the assurance only about 25 years ago that Bris will never experience anything like the 1974 disaster again.


----------



## Calliope (12 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> I did live in Brisbane for awhile many years ago, but I seem to have a healty natural instinct to head for the hills to roll out my swag and make camp, so in that respect I am a little smug that I am not caught in the flood waters.
> 
> I ...am a little peeved off that Brisbane is expected to experience worse than the 1974 flood, in contradiction of the assurance only about 25 years ago that Bris will never experience anything like the 1974 disaster again.




Seeing that you are peeved, and anti-dam, perhaps you can tell us what the projected height of the flood in Brisbane would be in the absence of the Wivenhoe Dam.

It would be about 2 metres above the projected height tomorrow of 5.5 metres.



> It is anticipated that during a large flood similar in magnitude to that experienced in 1974, by using mitigation facility within Wivenhoe Dam, flood levels will be reduced downstream by an estimated 2 metres.




http://www.seqwater.com.au/public/catch-store-treat/dams/wivenhoe-dam


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## Whiskers (12 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> Seeing that you are peeved, and anti-dam, ]




I'm not anti-dam, but I am anti-mega-dams unless there is a compelling holistic case for it. I prefer more smaller dams in say rocky steep terrain that is not particularly usefull or significant for other purposes, eg The Fred Haig Dam. 



> perhaps you can tell us what the projected height of the flood in Brisbane would be in the absence of the Wivenhoe Dam.
> 
> It would be about 2 metres above the projected height tomorrow of 5.5 metres.




Yeah, they estimate that. But estimates tend to be a bit rubbery, more or less, depending who makes them. 

The trade-off though for a lower level this time seems to be a much longer inundation of those who do go under because of the necessary releases from Wivenhoe. That means a lot of things like timber in floors and frames and even vegetation that normally survives a short inundation may be ruined beyound repair.  

Another trade-off, is the complacency of residents in the belief that a repeat of 1974 will never occur...ie slow to respond to the threat of rising water.

Another good example of an unforseen trade-off is the possible 'blowing up' of the Brisbane’s floating Riverwalk as well as the ferry mentioned earlier to prevent them becoming floating missiles... and how many more are to come.

Not forgeting the unthinkable, that the wet season has just started and Wivenhoe may meet it's match from nature and double or tripple the flow in a flash.  

As I indicated before I'm pretty risk averse. I wouldn't live anywhere near the Brisbane River flood plane for quids.


----------



## drsmith (12 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> The trade-off though for a lower level this time seems to be a much longer inundation of those who do go under because of the necessary releases from Wivenhoe. That means a lot of things like timber in floors and frames and even vegetation that normally survives a short inundation may be ruined beyound repair.



If this is not a reasonal trade off, the logical extension is to burst the Wivenhoe Dam and let the whole lot down in one hit.


----------



## Whiskers (12 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> If this is not a reasonal trade off, the logical extension is to burst the Wivenhoe Dam and let the whole lot down in one hit.




Oh no... don't talk about bursting the dam on purpose now! 

I suppose those at higher levels would consider it a reasonable trade-off, but I wonder what those at lower levels think if they stayed soaked for days longer than they would ordinarily. I suspect if there was no flood mitigation they most likely would have  invested in higher ground.

I understand one of the reasons why Rocklea Markets recovered and expanded on the same site and other food distribution facilities developed there since is because of the flood mitigation plan and they are part of the lower level that may be under water for longer. That's Qld's main fresh food distribution centre a casualty, a trade-off of the flood mitigation probably closed down again and again  for longer (in total) before the wet season is over.. 

I hope it all works as planned, but I just can't help considering the worst case scenerio.


----------



## Calliope (12 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> ... but I just can't help considering the worst case scenerio.




And I just can't help feeling that this is what you would like


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## Wysiwyg (12 January 2011)

Pollution from tonnes upon tonnes of stuff is being dumped in the ocean via rivers along the coast. Scourge of the planet, styrofoam, is seen on this video.


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## nioka (12 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> And I just can't help feeling that this is what you would like




Have a think about that post. then apologise.


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## Whiskers (12 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> And I just can't help feeling that this is what you would like




Well, from my experience, people who never think about bad or worst case scenerios are doomed to be victims of every minor hickup in lifes journey.

It's not about beeing gloomy or pessimestic,  but prepared.

I just happen to have been a boy scout and leader in my hey day... and you know what their motto is... Be Prepared! 

I'm just highlighting that I hope someone has a contingency plan for the Wivenhoe overflowing the wall, cos regardless of the recent downfall considered a bit unusual, because the Wivenhoe was already well over full and releasing water for weeks, it's probably not going to buff the effects much other than cutting the peak off a bit as I say at the expense of longer lower level flows which I'm curious to see the final analysis come June or so when the wet is over and the costs are weighed up.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 January 2011)

Let's hope that the folk in Brisbane, the Lockyer, Ipswich and Toowoomba have a safe night. 

I've been through one major flood where a family member's house was severely flooded, and I can understand the dread and despair of some of the folk down there. 

gg


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## derty (12 January 2011)

Good work maintaining a level and rational conversation whiskers in the face of consistent trolling.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> I see on that graph at Wivenhoe it's nudging 75 meters, with full supp level apparently 50 meters.
> 
> I've ben unable to find a total wall height, but the max level appears to be 225%, reaching about 192% yesterday and apparently still about 190%, and not going to scale back releases for some time yet.
> 
> Where are all the mathematicans and hydrologists... how much more rain will it take in the next two or three days, when it seems not much is going to change in terms of water levels and inflow before the 225% is reached and the wall starts overflowing?



Full Supply Level (FSL) is 67m AHD (metres above sea level - dam levels are commonly measured this way). 

FSL for Wivenhoe is taken as FSL for water supply purposes which is an arbitrary level in terms of the dam's engineering - someone just decided (hopefully backed with proper calculation) to normally store only a certain amount of water, leaving the rest of the dam's capacity available for flood control. There may also have been other influences in this decision - amount of land normally flooded (versus that occasionally flooded when normal level is exceeded), recreational use and so on.

The dam isn't full, in an engineering sense, until it reaches its true FSL which is well above normal "maximum" levels.

Wivenhoe is a bit unusual from an Australian perspective since most dams in this country have only one defined FSL since the aim is to store as much water as possible, with flood control not being an objective. The practice of releasing water when the dam is not actually full, in order to be able to hold back water in the event of flood, is not common in Australia (though this mode of operation is not unique to Wivenhoe, it is relatively uncommon in Australia).

*What happens if Wivenhoe does reach maximum level? No different to any other dam - water goes down the spillway (Wivenhoe actually has two spillways) in order to ensure the safety of the dam. This is normal operation.*

Whilst FSL is the "maximum" level, dams are designed to allow some water storage above this level during a flood event. Wivenhoe dam shouldn't collapse just because it gets to full capacity, or even a bit over it. Nor should any other dam. *It's only if water starts literally running straight over the top of the dam itself that there will be a problem - and that shouldn't happen given that there's two rather large spillways to let the water out at a lower level.*

In some cases, for example Lake Gordon in Tasmania (far larger than Wivenhoe), there isn't any kind of spillway at all and that certainly isn't the only dam like that. We've had big dams without spillways in Tas since 1922 and we've got a whole lot of other dams (which do have spillways) in the lower sections of cacade generation systems (most notably the Derwent and Mersey-Forth catchments) that are almost always filled right to the top. 

In short, it all works fine as long as the engineering and operation are right. Depending on the purpose, dams "should" be full, empty or somewhere in between. For long term water storage obviously it's "good" if it's full. For a small storage (relative to catchment size) hydro-electric system you want it never full (since that would lead to spill if it rained) and never empty. And for a flood control dam the ideal level is, of course, empty whenever there isn't actually a flood.

So why is water being released from Wivenhoe? The storage (as distinct from the physical dam wall itself) is not large enough to hold back the full volume of water entering it during this flood event. Consequently, some water must be released. From the perspective of the dam itself, they could let the level rise further - the only reason to not do so is that if they did this, peak release volumes would need to be higher, since the dam would not then be storing any additional water at all, and that would cause greater flooding downstream.

If I were in Brisbane right now then there are plenty of things I would be worried about. The structural safety of Wivenhoe would be well down the list unless there's an earthquake or something like that.

Petrol - I hear that Caltex has had to stop production at their refinery (in Brisbane) due to the floods. There are only two oil refineries in Qld - I'm not sure how the other one is doing but it too is in Brisbane so may be affected. Given that the floods may have contaiminated stocks at service stations etc, a petrol shortage is a possible outcome.

Food - Lots of panic buying at the shops according to the media. And of course lots of crops wiped out too, farm machinery damaged etc.

Water supply - Ironic though it may seem, but lack of drinkable water will quite likely be a problem in the days and weeks ahead.

Electricity - Some areas have been switched off for safety but the upstream supply of electricity is OK at least in the short term. Reduced production from Qld power stations is presently being offset by increased production in other states (primarily Vic and Tas although there is some effect in SA and NSW too).

And then there's the immediate effect of the floods to worry about...


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## drsmith (12 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> I'm just highlighting that I hope someone has a contingency plan for the Wivenhoe overflowing the wall, cos regardless of the recent downfall considered a bit unusual, because the Wivenhoe was already well over full and releasing water for weeks, it's probably not going to buff the effects much other than cutting the peak off a bit as I say at the expense of longer lower level flows which I'm curious to see the final analysis come June or so when the wet is over and the costs are weighed up.



I'll suggest that smoothing the peak is preferrable to an unrestrained flood.


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## Happy (12 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> ...
> It's not about beeing gloomy or pessimestic,  but prepared.
> 
> ...




Rings my bell, when after bringing up some possible scenarios I got the tag of bringing bad luck, because sometimes things happened as I assumed they could.

If in 1974 there was similar event and people did not gradually move away from 100 YEARS EVENT AREA, well they could build some better facilities upstream.

Not to mention that 100 YEARS EVENT will not necessarily happen 100 years from now.
(It is only statistical expression of usually rare events, but it is not set in stone)


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## Julia (12 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> So why is water being released from Wivenhoe? The storage (as distinct from the physical dam wall itself) is not large enough to hold back the full volume of water entering it during this flood event. Consequently, some water must be released. From the perspective of the dam itself, they could let the level rise further - the only reason to not do so is that if they did this, peak release volumes would need to be higher, since the dam would not then be storing any additional water at all, and that would cause greater flooding downstream.
> 
> If I were in Brisbane right now then there are plenty of things I would be worried about. The structural safety of Wivenhoe would be well down the list unless there's an earthquake or something like that.
> 
> ...



Smurf, thank you for - as always - a coherent explanation of how the dam works.

Re food and water:  already some regional Qld towns are out of drinking water as at news bulletin I heard at 6pm.  Other towns were being told they must use water only for drinking and showers.  Nothing else.  Even with such measures, they anticipated having no water available for drinking within a further day.

Supermarkets and fruit/veg shops in the regional centre in which I live have no food available, not even any tinned products or packets of rice/pasta.  No petrol left as of this morning.


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2011)

Happy said:


> Rings my bell, when after bringing up some possible scenarios I got the tag of bringing bad luck, because sometimes things happened as I assumed they could.
> 
> If in 1974 there was similar event and people did not gradually move away from 100 YEARS EVENT AREA, well they could build some better facilities upstream.
> 
> ...



Agreed that people should be prepared.

But my point is that food, drinking water, sanitation (disease...) and the like are immediate, real problems. Likewise accommodation, transport (and fuel to run it) and so on are also real problems that are here right now whereas a dam burst is an unlikely (though admittedly not impossible) event.


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2011)

Julia said:


> Re food and water:  already some regional Qld towns are out of drinking water as at news bulletin I heard at 6pm.  Other towns were being told they must use water only for drinking and showers.  Nothing else.  Even with such measures, they anticipated having no water available for drinking within a further day.
> 
> Supermarkets and fruit/veg shops in the regional centre in which I live have no food available, not even any tinned products or packets of rice/pasta.  No petrol left as of this morning.



If you are forced to drink potentially contaminated water then boil it first as this should kill the bacteria. Not ideal but better than nothing.

I know that boiling it could be a bit of a problem given the circumstances - just have to improvise whatever means can be found to do it. 

If the mains water is still working but is contaminated with mud etc then you should get clearer water from the hot tap if you have a storage (tank) hot water system. Just be aware that the mud will be collecting at the bottom of the tank since the water heater is effectively acting as a settling tank (the water to the taps is drawn off the top, whilst cold water enters at the bottom). So you should flush the tank once life gets back to normal (otherwise the accumulated silt will cause it to rust) but it's a potential source of clearer water during the emergency.


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## IB12 (13 January 2011)

God is giving us a message that he is angry with our commodities exports and their contribution to Global Warming. 
First stop coal industry in QLD, next stop will be something major happening in the WA.


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## burglar (13 January 2011)

IB12 said:


> God is giving us a message that he is angry with our commodities exports and their contribution to Global Warming.
> First stop coal industry in QLD, next stop will be something major happening in the WA.




If He is so powerful, almighty and omnipotent, why doesn't He just send us a text message?

Sheesh! ::


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## IB12 (13 January 2011)

Unprecedented commodities export growth, comes with unprecedented environmental natural disaster.


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## joea (13 January 2011)

The planet is just doing what it has always done.
The reason why it takes a while is that there is man made infracture preventing it from flowing out.

I reckon the dam plan worked. People will be relieved in Brisbane this morning.

Prosperine in Nth. Qld. got flooded every big wet. They built a dam years back and the year it was finished it was filled to 6 inches from the top by a cyclone. The dam now supply's irrigation to the agriculture area.
Its the first time I have seen a labour politican in control since 2007. Go Anna!

Cheers.


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## Calliope (13 January 2011)

The river peaked in the city at 4.46 metres which is almost a metre less than the peak of 5.45 metres in 1974. Wivenhoe flood mitigation prevented a major flood from becoming a disastrous flood. 

No doubt we will find out in the washup, but without the management of the water flow, the flood would have been several metres higher.


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## joea (13 January 2011)

IB12 said:


> Unprecedented commodities export growth, comes with unprecedented environmental natural disaster.




I reckon you are correct. I think the rail for coal transport will be a priority.


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## burglar (13 January 2011)

IB12 said:


> Unprecedented commodities export growth, comes with unprecedented environmental natural disaster.




How does unprecedented growth in coal export cause rain?


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## Calliope (13 January 2011)

burglar said:


> How does unprecedented growth in coal export cause rain?




Good one burglar. It's amazing how natural disasters bring out the idiots. They are like cane toads, which now have a new lease on life.


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## burglar (13 January 2011)

joea said:


> I reckon you are correct. I think the rail for coal transport will be a priority.



joea, 

Just to hand: ASX report from QRN regarding Weather impact on rail services.


http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110113/pdf/41w55cm8csfqjs.pdf


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## JimBob (13 January 2011)

Wivenhow Dam certainly helped and saved Brisbane from the deadly flash flooding seen in Toowoomba and the Lockyer valley.  A controlled release is much better than uncontrolled and little rain tipped over the next few days meant then the release rate could be cut back significantly.  At least Brisbane had some warning of what was coming but a lot of people underestimated how far the water would rise and didnt think of things like no electricity and food shortage.  

I like in the Centenary suburbs of Brisbane and luckily i live on a hill.  Down the street though, there are heaps of houses that are now cut off from the mainland and without electricity - probably for a few days to come.  Tuesday night was bin night in my area so there are heaps of floating rubbish bins and rubbish floating around the streets.  Disease will become a problem in the days to come.  Most of the main arterial roads are cut off.  A lot of people are ready to help out and start the clean up, just waiting for the waters to go down enough to get started.


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## Duckman#72 (13 January 2011)

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but my theory is that the Qld Government, SEQ water engineers and the managers at Wivenhoe tried too hard right from the start to maintain zero flood levels.

If water was being released at greater rates than 150,000 megalitres a day for longer periods we may not have seen 650,000 megalitres being released on Monday night. It would obviously have meant low level flooding sooner for those downstream but it might have meant a much lower peak.

This is certainly not a criticism as the deluge of water that went flowing into the Wivenhoe catchment on Monday was unprecedented and could not be expected. 

My point is that people have said the dam has not done what was expected of it (stop another "74 like" flood). My argument is that it was not the dam that failed rather than a miscalculation of the controlled releases, and a presumption that the controlled releases would stop all flooding.  

Smurf, maybe you have an idea on this theory? I might be completely wrong.

This brings out the worst in people. In my town here the police were caled in after fights broke out over the remaining loaves of bread at Woolies. Another lady after being told she could only take two loaves, promptly threw the third and fourth loaves on the floor and stood on them. Just crazy, irrational and unsociable behaviour.  

Duckman


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## derty (13 January 2011)

Duckman#72 said:


> I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but my theory is that the Qld Government, SEQ water engineers and the managers at Wivenhoe tried too hard right from the start to maintain zero flood levels.
> 
> If water was being released at greater rates than 150,000 megalitres a day for longer periods we may not have seen 650,000 megalitres being released on Monday night. It would obviously have meant low level flooding sooner for those downstream but it might have meant a much lower peak.



It's a bit of a case of "damned if you don't, damned if you do". If they had released the additional water and flooded some low lying areas and no additional rains came there would have been hell to pay. It would have been whipped up in a media sensation of houses necessarily flooded. Heads would have been demanded.

They will be reviewing their hydro models and strategies following this. It sure was a good test for the dam and it came though with flying colours and most likely covered quite a bit of its construction cost in this mitigation alone.


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## pedalofogus (13 January 2011)

Without the Dam, this would have been a 1890's style disaster.  I would love to see those Hydrology experts (or whatever they are called) do a study on what the river levels would have been this week without Wivenhoe.  We could have seen 1890's style data like 30metres in Ipswich, and 8 metres in Brisbane (IMO).

Anyway, that is the past.  I am in Ipswich CBD today and the clean up is already in full swing.  They have council employees everywhere cleaning up the streets.  People all over the place cleaning out their shops and businesses.  The spirit is just amazing.  I was helping this guy pull his stock out of his shop, and it is just a write off, but he is still so upbeat.  Incredible.

My biggest concern now is the chance of a repeat in the next few months.  With Wivenhoe and the entire SE Qld area being so drenched already, and with the predictions of rain that are being forecast for January through to April, I am really concerned that this clean up will be needed again within the next few months.

That's just my opinion anyway.


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## joea (13 January 2011)

burglar said:


> joea,
> 
> Just to hand: ASX report from QRN regarding Weather impact on rail services.
> 
> ...




Thanks for that. Yeah, I thought it would be all hands on deck. 
I am up near Daintree Rainforest. The only problem is the noise from the grass growing.

Cheers


----------



## Happy (13 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> ...
> If the mains water is still working but is contaminated with mud etc then you should get clearer water from the hot tap if you have a storage (tank) hot water system. Just be aware that the mud will be collecting at the bottom of the tank since the water heater is effectively acting as a settling tank (the water to the taps is drawn off the top, whilst cold water enters at the bottom). So you should flush the tank once life gets back to normal (otherwise the accumulated silt will cause it to rust) but it's a potential source of clearer water during the emergency.




Don't remember exactly how US Folks advised to do it, but roughly it was like this:

- Turn off power supply to tank (gas or electric)
- Turn off intake to hot water tank
- Open relief valve
- Use water as required 
(might have to improvise here too, like loosen up some fittings low on tank, push some compressed air through pressure relief valve to force water out)


----------



## Happy (13 January 2011)

Duckman#72 said:


> ...My point is that people have said the dam has not done what was expected of it (stop another "74 like" flood). My argument is that it was not the dam that failed rather than a miscalculation of the controlled releases, and a presumption that the controlled releases would stop all flooding.
> 
> ....




I suspect that earlier, dam was used to catch water and one could argue that it was good thing to do after 7 or 10 years of drought.

Maybe we should have one dam kept empty for flood event and another one for water supply, as events like that cannot be predicted month in advance.

I think about month (give or take few weeks) would be needed to drop dam water level without causing any floods to be ready for the big water event.

Hope next flood will be met with better resources, because we know it will happen, mater of time!


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 January 2011)

IB12 said:


> God is giving us a message that he is angry with our commodities exports and their contribution to Global Warming.
> First stop coal industry in QLD, next stop will be something major happening in the WA.




Would one go blind, eventually, should one continue to mine?

gg


----------



## Whiskers (13 January 2011)

derty said:


> Good work maintaining a level and rational conversation whiskers in the face of consistent trolling.




Well, I figure I just had a 'natural' instinct to survey the possibilities and what could be reasonably achieved with what there is. My thanks go to the likes of you and Smurf who are able to provide sound data to make some judjements from.



drsmith said:


> I'll suggest that smoothing the peak is preferrable to an unrestrained flood.




I don't dissagree with that drsmith. My query was whether they got all their sums right to accomodate a worst case scenerio. Btw, do you live in the higher flood levels? 



IB12 said:


> God is giving us a message that he is angry with our commodities exports and their contribution to Global Warming.
> First stop coal industry in QLD, next stop will be something major happening in the WA.




 How do you know it's God that's angry and not the Devil trying to ruin Gods kingdom?



Duckman#72 said:


> This is certainly not a criticism as the deluge of water that went flowing into the Wivenhoe catchment on Monday was unprecedented and could not be expected.




'Ã‡oud not be expected' is probably a bit unrealistic. I'd agree given the Flood Mitigation hype, most people just considered that it would not affect Brisbane, but I'm sure the Wivenhoe planners anticipated some degree of extreme and unprecedented event in their design. That's the numbers I'm curious about.



> My point is that people have said the dam has not done what was expected of it (stop another "74 like" flood). My argument is that it was not the dam that failed rather than a miscalculation of the controlled releases, and a presumption that the controlled releases would stop all flooding.




Yeah, I agree there to a large extent. I note that they did get some criticism a few weeks ago for releasing a bit too much and causing  minor street flooding in Bris. That's my concern with building such mega-dams, ie you then have to get a pretty good handle on managing the flows as well as anticipating future inflows.

While the reports say Wivenhoe reached 192ish% I note they haven't updated the chart from the day before (11th) when it was at 160%. I got the feeling that they were more than a little concerned being in untested territory. 

The biggest issue with earth fill dams is drying of the clay core in drought and then filling too fast and water leaking through the cracks in the clay and causing a failure of the wall. Must have been on the minds of the managers and engineers as it rapidly rose to the upper levels that have never seen water before and I suspect they would want to lower the levels soon to take the pressure off while the clay core stabalises.



> This brings out the worst in people. In my town here the police were caled in after fights broke out over the remaining loaves of bread at Woolies. Another lady after being told she could only take two loaves, promptly threw the third and fourth loaves on the floor and stood on them. Just crazy, irrational and unsociable behaviour.
> 
> Duckman




Fortunately, I didn't notice or hear of any bad behaviour like that in Bundaberg. I see yesterday that grocery shelves are largely empty waiting for supplies to get past the flooded highway at Gympie.

I did hear though that as far as Bundaberg and maybe Maryborough are concerned that fuel supplies are beind sourced from Gladstone in the interim. 



pedalofogus said:


> My biggest concern now is the chance of a repeat in the next few months.  With Wivenhoe and the entire SE Qld area being so drenched already, and with the predictions of rain that are being forecast for January through to April, I am really concerned that this clean up will be needed again within the next few months.
> 
> That's just my opinion anyway.




Yes, if there was complacency before, people should be asking questions and making better plans for the rest of the wet season.


----------



## DB008 (13 January 2011)

IB12 said:


> *God is giving us a message that he is angry with our commodities exports and their contribution to Global Warming. *
> First stop coal industry in QLD, next stop will be something major happening in the WA.






Come on....


----------



## drsmith (13 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> I don't dissagree with that drsmith. My query was whether they got all their sums right to accomodate a worst case scenerio. Btw, do you live in the higher flood levels?



With the ongoing evolution seasonal rainfall forecasts, it may become viable to dip in to the storage component of Wivenhoe to increase flood mitigation capacity without too much risk to normal water supply.

The current La-Nina and resultant higher probability of higher rainfall is a good example. Easy call to make now, but may have been brave even 3 months ago bearing in mind a long recent history of drought and the inherent unreliability of seasonal rainfall forecasts for point locations or small areas.

I live on top of the escarpment to the east of Perth. It'll never flood, but it could burn.


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## Market Depth (13 January 2011)

The government should have dug out the Wivenhoe Dam deeper when hey had the chance. That's what all the farmers do when there's a drought.


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## drsmith (13 January 2011)

http://www.bom.gov.au/hydro/flood/qld/fld_reports/brisbane_jan1974.pdf

Historical flood information on pages 13 to 15. 

In Februrary 1893, there were two floods over 9m, 9 days apart. No wonder they're keen to quickly restore the flood mitigation capacity of Wivenhoe


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## Whiskers (13 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> It'll never flood, but it could burn.




Me too... but I have my spraying and extra fire fighting equipment at the ready, I'm prepared. 



Market Depth said:


> The government should have dug out the Wivenhoe Dam deeper when hey had the chance. That's what all the farmers do when there's a drought.




Oooh gees Market Depth... that would have been a waste of money.

I have built dams on my own property (up to 6 meter wall height) and the principle is to remove material from the hole to make the wall, but generally we are looking to hold back considerably more times the volume of water than clay, rock and soil we dig up, say at least 10:1 often 20 or 30:1 and more. The greater the ratio the better. 1:1 is thoroughly uneconomical for water catchment.  



drsmith said:


> http://www.bom.gov.au/hydro/flood/qld/fld_reports/brisbane_jan1974.pdf
> 
> Historical flood information on pages 13 to 15.
> 
> In Februrary 1893, there were two floods over 9m, 9 days apart. No wonder they're keen to quickly restore the flood mitigation capacity of Wivenhoe




9 meters is a hell of a flood. 

I wonder if this was their benchmark that they modeled to.


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## Market Depth (13 January 2011)

Whiskers said:


> Me too... but I have my spraying and extra fire fighting equipment at the ready, I'm prepared.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fair point. But you could hardly call the bligh government 'Thrifty' to start with. They spent a mountain of cash on trying to get the Traverston dam off the ground, that just turned into a 'Money Pit'. As too has the Queensland Health payroll sucked up it's fair share of wasted cash. Not to mention others. They could have raised the Dam wall for less money, but property owners wouldn't be happy with that. I guess the government is betting on the costs of damage to flooded properties to be less than taking action before. As with most things these days the private sector will be left holding the 'BAG' sadly.


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## Smurf1976 (14 January 2011)

Duckman#72 said:


> I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but my theory is that the Qld Government, SEQ water engineers and the managers at Wivenhoe tried too hard right from the start to maintain zero flood levels.
> 
> If water was being released at greater rates than 150,000 megalitres a day for longer periods we may not have seen 650,000 megalitres being released on Monday night. It would obviously have meant low level flooding sooner for those downstream but it might have meant a much lower peak.
> 
> ...



It comes down to probability in a manner very similar to share trading using a back tested system. Run the simulations and operate in a manner that produces the best overall result without any major disasters along the way.

In hindsight there's a "right" answer, but at the time it really does come down to probability and the best available weather forecasts. Like most things, you can only act on the information available at the time.

This stuff is done routinely under non-emergency conditions too. Rain should be coming, so dams with a large catchment relative to storage capacity are drawn down with the objective of minimising spill (noting that in this case  the objective is to capture as much water as possible rather than stopping a flood). 

As an example, here's what's being done in Tas at the moment, noting that some parts of Tas are also now flooded (though nowhere near as bad as in Queensland). http://www.hydro.com.au/about-us/ne...xpected-heavy-rains-over-north-and-north-east


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## WaveSurfer (14 January 2011)

Deepest sympathies to all of those affected by the floods. Hope you're okay up there in Bundy Julia.

I donated 5k to the cause. Here's hoping it gets to those who really need it.

You ain't gonna prevent this in future, no matter what half-arsed attempts are made. Mother Nature always lets us know who's boss. Bit like the markets actually.


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## Smurf1976 (14 January 2011)

Not wanting to detract from the disaster in Qld by any means, but spare a thought also for those affected by floods in NSW, Vic and Tas. 

The scale may not be comparable to Qld, but for those left with a house full of water, roads washed away etc it is still a disaster for them personally.

As for dams bursting, it's not major storages such as Wivenhoe that you need to worry about. It's things like farm dams that have far lesser safety standards of design and construction that you need to worry about. http://www.examiner.com.au/news/loc...-underway-in-clayton-river-basin/2047696.aspx


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## Julia (14 January 2011)

WaveSurfer said:


> Deepest sympathies to all of those affected by the floods. Hope you're okay up there in Bundy Julia.



I'm actually not in Bundy, WS, but a bit south, and we've not been nearly as badly affected.  Many thanks for the thought.



> I donated 5k to the cause. Here's hoping it gets to those who really need it.



Generous of you.  I think we all have that same worry about exactly how much of our donations reach where they are needed.

At the same time, I keep coming back to the worry that if people are going to be bailed out when they have failed to insure, aren't we setting up the principle that it just doesn't pay to take responsibility and insure your property?

And I'm also blown away by the determination of so many of these people living in frequently flooded areas who have been through this multiple times, yet they still say "we'll come back and start again".  Why, fergawdsake?  Especially if you can't get flood insurance there?

This attitude seems to be lauded as immense stoicism and courage.  Imo it's just damn silly.  If I got flooded out totally just once, I'd be off to safer ground, no question.

It's just like the people in the Victorian bushfires who lost their homes and almost lost their lives.  But, they proudly said, we will be going back and will rebuild our homes.
I just don't get it.



> You ain't gonna prevent this in future, no matter what half-arsed attempts are made. Mother Nature always lets us know who's boss. Bit like the markets actually.



Exactly.  So why wouldn't you choose your place of residence accordingly!


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## pedalofogus (15 January 2011)

I totally agree Julia. My best mate lives in oxley and was one of the first under water this week. When they bought the house they said they had to live in oxley for the lifestyle and to be close to Brisbane cbd. But they only had a max of 400k to spend. So as a result the only place they could get was right in the lowest point of oxley. I told them before they bought it that it was flood area, didn't want to listen. I found them a place in the same suburb as me in ipswich for 350k, they said they didn't want to live in ipswich. I then did an insurance quote on their behalf that included flood insurance, they didn't want to know about it.2 years later, here we are with them left with nothing.

Now I will go and help them clean up tomorrow, and I will pray that the generosity of others will help them back to their feet, because I don't want to see my best mates suffer. But if I was just a random person donating to the appeal I would be thinking to myself "why should I work my bum off and then donate my earnings to someone who didn't care enough to keep themselves out of that situation in the first place?"


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## Wysiwyg (15 January 2011)

Julia said:


> And I'm also blown away by the determination of so many of these people living in frequently flooded areas who have been through this multiple times, yet they still say "we'll come back and start again".  Why, fergawdsake?  Especially if you can't get flood insurance there?




In order to sell and move to higher ground the dwelling has to be made attractive for sale. I think that is what many actually mean by rebuilding. For those that decide to stay it is a risk thing. Take the risk that another flood will be a long time away.  

Donation wise I would like my contribution to go locally here in C.Q.


----------



## BradK (15 January 2011)

Julia said:


> I'm sure everyone is aware of the disaster that is affecting much of Queensland at present.  Much inconvenience for most of us, but huge loss for many whose homes and businesses have been inundated.
> 
> Reason for the thread is my utter disgust that Premier Anna Bligh, as a result of huge public pressure via the media, actually dragged herself back from holiday to swan about in a chopper today and declare open the "Flood Appeal", magnificently begun by the massive donation of the government of a whole $1 million!!!
> 
> ...




A hell of a lot has changed in 3 weeks, hasn't it? Who'd have thought the scale would be so great?


----------



## BradK (15 January 2011)

My wife and I have been talking about how much to give and where. 

Woolworths are going to match, dollar for dollar, any donation made through its checkout and give a tax deductible receipt. Woolworths say that there will be no limit - they will match their customer's giving. 

My wife and I are going to give through that channel. They will be channeling their funds to the Salvation Army. 

Brad


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## burglar (15 January 2011)

I hardly ever watch TV

When I saw a boat on the footpath ... I laughed (out loud).

Later, the Channel 9 chopper reunited a man with his daughter and grand kids.
I choked and a little tear ran down my cheek.


Ohh, Ohh, and I so laughed when I saw how Queenslanders build railway lines!

An emotional rollercoaster ... I feel for you guys!


PS Pity there is only one Channel 9 chopper to go around.


----------



## Calliope (15 January 2011)

The heroic Mr Rudd had to be admitted to hospital for a few hours after incurring a war wound (a minor foot abrasion) which he incurred while getting down and dirty on Wednesday for the benefit of an ABC film crew.

When Bligh said "we breed'em tough in Queensland ", she should have added "except for Mr Rudd".


----------



## Calliope (15 January 2011)

BradK said:


> Woolworths are going to match, dollar for dollar, any donation made through its checkout and give a tax deductible receipt. Woolworths say that there will be no limit - they will match their customer's giving.




One of the things ignored by the media in a crisis like this, is the terrific organising ability of  big firms like Woolworths and Coles in getting food and other essentials to affected flood localities, often by very circuitous routes, including Army helicopters. 

People also often forget that their staffs and management are local people too, and are suffering the same trauma.


----------



## pedalofogus (15 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> One of the things ignored by the media in a crisis like this, is the terrific organising ability of  big firms like Woolworths and Coles in getting food and other essentials to affected flood localities, often by very circuitous routes, including Army helicopters.
> 
> People also often forget that their staffs and management are local people too, and are suffering the same trauma.




Yes, agree with your comment on local managers. Our local woolies manager here was telling me yesterday that he had 2 trucks of goods coming last night, but he couldn't get any staff to stock shelves. Saw him this morning, he worked all night last night stocking shelves so that us residents can get some food.

But don't get too complimentary of the major supermarkets. I have a client who is a supplier to coles. They got an email from coles on Thursday asking them to make a 5000 donation to coles to replace lost profits from the floods. How the hell can a major corporation try and get a donation from a small business. Especially when those suppliers are doing it even tougher when their products can't be sold.


----------



## Macquack (15 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> The heroic Mr Rudd had to be admitted to hospital for a few hours after incurring a war wound (a minor foot abrasion) which he incurred while getting down and dirty on Wednesday for the benefit of an ABC film crew.
> 
> When Bligh said "we breed'em tough in Queensland ", she should have added "except for Mr Rudd".




Don't criticise Kevin Rudd unless you are doing something yourself.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 January 2011)

pedalofogus said:


> But don't get too complimentary of the major supermarkets. I have a client who is a supplier to coles. They got an email from coles on Thursday asking them to make a 5000 donation to coles to replace lost profits from the floods. How the hell can a major corporation try and get a donation from a small business. Especially when those suppliers are doing it even tougher when their products can't be sold.



This needs to be in the national media until such time as Coles (1) reverses its position and (2) donates a substantial sum of money (at least 10 times the total amount they have asked suppliers to donate to them) as a gesture of goodwill.

A totally unacceptable business practice.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not wanting to detract from the disaster in Qld by any means, but spare a thought also for those affected by floods in NSW, Vic and Tas.
> 
> The scale may not be comparable to Qld, but for those left with a house full of water, roads washed away etc it is still a disaster for them personally.



An outright disaster in Qld, significant floods in NSW and Vic, residents evacuated due to floods in in parts of northern Tas and I hear there's a few local issues due to the rain in SA and NT now as well.

Meanwhile they could sure use a bit of this rain to put the fires out in WA...

If you are somewhere in Australia that hasn't been flooded or burnt then you're doing pretty well really.

Aside from the obvious immediate concerns with people losing their lives, having nowhere to live and so on (which are absolutely the highest priority of course), I'm wondering about what happens next. The cost of rebuilding alone would seem to be significant relative to Australia's total GDP, certainly a few %, and we've got key industries like mining and agriculture at a standstill as well. 

I keep hearing politicians saying we'll rebuild and so on but I'm wondering if we can actually afford to do so? We seem to be talking tens of billions of $ for Qld alone, and that's without even mentioning the lost exports whilst the mines are shut, crops are ruined and so on. Then add in the damage from floods and fire in the other states which, whilst nowhere near as bad as Qld, does seem to be significant in total. 

Can we actually afford to fix all this? Has anyone done the sums? Or is the crisis about to turn into an economic one once the water recedes? And if we do have the money, then do we have the physical resources to do the job? Building materials, labour, equipment and so on? We're talking about a pretty large job here, it's not as though it's only a handfull of homes and a couple of roads that are damaged. This is pretty large scale destruction...


----------



## Calliope (15 January 2011)

Macquack said:


> Don't criticise Kevin Rudd unless you are doing something yourself.




I didn't realise that you actually care about the plight of people. It's a bit unusual for a whale lover. Perhaps you could prevail on the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society to divert some of their huge funding to the flood victims.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 January 2011)

BradK said:


> They will be channeling their funds to the Salvation Army.
> 
> Brad




Yeah. The oft forgotten Salvos. What a humble group of selfless people.


----------



## Julia (15 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> .
> 
> I keep hearing politicians saying we'll rebuild and so on but I'm wondering if we can actually afford to do so? We seem to be talking tens of billions of $ for Qld alone, and that's without even mentioning the lost exports whilst the mines are shut, crops are ruined and so on. Then add in the damage from floods and fire in the other states which, whilst nowhere near as bad as Qld, does seem to be significant in total.
> 
> Can we actually afford to fix all this? Has anyone done the sums? Or is the crisis about to turn into an economic one once the water recedes? And if we do have the money, then do we have the physical resources to do the job? Building materials, labour, equipment and so on? We're talking about a pretty large job here, it's not as though it's only a handfull of homes and a couple of roads that are damaged. This is pretty large scale destruction...



 I've been thinking along the same lines, but I suppose there's little alternative.
The people have got to have somewhere to live and if you're not going to rebuild in the flood locations (which would seem utterly sensible to me) you're still going to have to build something somewhere.

And the infrastructure is going to have to be repaired.  Can't just decide not to fix a main road e.g.

But as you have pointed, where is all the necessary labour going to come from.
Electricians have suggested people will be waiting weeks, even months for someone to come and certify their place is OK for the power to be turned on.   I don't know how any government can improve on this.  Would they even bring in the necessary skilled people from other countries on a temporary basis?

Hmm, wonder if there are any electricians, plumbers or other necessary tradespeople in our detention centres?

I just so feel for people who look like being out of their homes for a very long time.

Suppose rental accommodation will be at a premium and rents will rocket up as a consequence.


----------



## joea (15 January 2011)

Hi 
I believe that there are 500 electricans heading to Qld. from other states.

I see the people are gutting their houses, to be relined by chippies.
It is probably the quickest way to rebuild in the first instance, however will those 
affected be there in 5 years. That is anybody's guess.

The building industry is in a low at the moment, so there will be plenty of work.
Cheers


----------



## Market Depth (15 January 2011)

Been out helping with the clean up over the last few days. Lots of stuff going to waste and the dump pile. I'm staggered at the amount actually. Allot of goods could be cleaned up and reused. Managed to save some nice audio equipment (With the owners permission of course). I'll clean it up test it and return the stuff. (I already have too much audio gear) It'll be a nice little joy to hear some of this gear play music again


----------



## JimBob (15 January 2011)

I was out today to help with the clean up and it was good to see so many people out helping out - so many that they had to turn some people away as they couldnt handle so many people.  The Brisbane City Council deserves praise for its work -they have organised buses to get volunteers out to the problem areas.  I was in Rosalie and they had about 15 people per house making stripping the houses out and doing whatever cleaning was possible much easier.  Then they had bulldozers and rubbish trucks on the street to take the junk straight away as well as fire trucks and street cleaning trucks to try and clean the road up.  This scene is being repeated street after street, right across Brisbane.  They said they will be prepared for more volunteers tomorrow, there are still some areas that people cant get into due to flood water.

I wonder what will become of all the small businesses who have just lost everything


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## Calliope (15 January 2011)

I remember the trauma after the '74 floods of having to throw out hundreds of treasured books collected over a lifetime. I am now immune from that. All the books I need are now stored on my Kindle.


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## nioka (15 January 2011)

BradK said:


> My wife and I have been talking about how much to give and where.
> 
> Woolworths are going to match, dollar for dollar, any donation made through its checkout and give a tax deductible receipt. Woolworths say that there will be no limit - they will match their customer's giving.
> 
> ...




I'll be heading for the worst of the areas next week, probably Grantham I'll look for someone in trouble and hand out cash or take them shopping. My daughter has bought a new fridge and a new washing machine and has given it to the grand kids and told them to go there and find someone that desperately needs one. I believe in direct action rather than give to a fund that may still be holding the funds in a few months time. I have a lot of time for the Salvos and if direct action is not possible they would be my first choice.

Better a few get help that don't need or deserve it than have someone that is in desperate need miss out.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 January 2011)

Julia said:


> But as you have pointed, where is all the necessary labour going to come from.
> Electricians have suggested people will be waiting weeks, even months for someone to come and certify their place is OK for the power to be turned on.   I don't know how any government can improve on this.  Would they even bring in the necessary skilled people from other countries on a temporary basis?
> 
> Hmm, wonder if there are any electricians, plumbers or other necessary tradespeople in our detention centres?



A national critical skills scheme is what I think is needed. 

If it could be arranged that workers were still paid as usual and there were no other consequences for their normal employment, then I think we could get a huge number of trades people from the other states up there pretty quickly.

But retaining existing employment arrangements really is the key to make something like that work. Nobody's wants to take unpaid leave and then come back home to find they've been sacked. And of course they still need an income to pay the bills while they're up in Qld. 

I'm thinking of a scheme where employers who "loan" their staff to assist in Qld are compensated by government for doing so. I'm not generally keen on governments handing out money, but in this case it's a solution.

Under this system, those going to Qld would not make a profit from doing so despite the long hours they would likely be working. They'd just get paid (by their normal employer using government $) for the normal hours they would have worked in their normal jobs, with a guarantee of no impact on their normal employment arrangements once they return home.

I'm not thinking that they stay up there for months and build entire houses. I'm talking about getting the transport system (roads, rail and I hear there's some ferry terminals that are completely wrecked - fixing those would seem fairly urgent so people can get around etc). And things like getting the power, water, gas etc working for those buildings otherwise still habitable. That would at least get some of the worst ongoing day to day aspects of the disaster overcome and with help from all states should be able to be done pretty quickly I would think.

At least with a working transport system, power, gas, water etc there will be a sound basis to fix the damaged buildings etc. But everything's so much harder if you don't have power, drinkable water and so on first.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 January 2011)

Having been through one huge flood and many cyclones.

Cash is what's needed mates. 

Cash.

Give if you can to any of the caring organisations. 

Folk can re-organise and sweat themselves out of a corner, but cash is beaut when you are down.

gg


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## Julia (15 January 2011)

Market Depth said:


> Been out helping with the clean up over the last few days. Lots of stuff going to waste and the dump pile. I'm staggered at the amount actually. Allot of goods could be cleaned up and reused. Managed to save some nice audio equipment (With the owners permission of course). I'll clean it up test it and return the stuff. (I already have too much audio gear) It'll be a nice little joy to hear some of this gear play music again



Good on you for helping, MD.  I guess many of the affected people are so distraught that the idea of trying to clean up audio equipment etc just seems like a step too far.
Their insurance will presumably cover replacement with a new item  (If they have flood insurance of course.)





JimBob said:


> I was out today to help with the clean up and it was good to see so many people out helping out - so many that they had to turn some people away as they couldnt handle so many people.  The Brisbane City Council deserves praise for its work -they have organised buses to get volunteers out to the problem areas.  I was in Rosalie and they had about 15 people per house making stripping the houses out and doing whatever cleaning was possible much easier.  Then they had bulldozers and rubbish trucks on the street to take the junk straight away as well as fire trucks and street cleaning trucks to try and clean the road up.  This scene is being repeated street after street, right across Brisbane.  They said they will be prepared for more volunteers tomorrow, there are still some areas that people cant get into due to flood water.



Goodonya, Jimbob.  Yes, I was listening to Can Do Campbell on the radio this evening and totally understand how he came by such a nickname.  Perhaps it's his army background.  Just fantastic organisation by the BCC and wonderful support from all the volunteers.

I think we're all disgusted by the few cases of looting, but truly, when these are compared with the thousands of people prepared to offer help to those they've never met, it's an immense tribute to the community spirit of the Australian people.

It reminds me of the often quoted fact that during World War II the suicide rate in Britain was about halved, as people pulled together and supported one another.
Sometimes, a disaster can be about people actually feeling they have a worthwhile role in life rather than being insignificant.



> I wonder what will become of all the small businesses who have just lost everything



The government is offering $25,000 to each small business.  That should help a bit.




nioka said:


> I'll be heading for the worst of the areas next week, probably Grantham I'll look for someone in trouble and hand out cash or take them shopping. My daughter has bought a new fridge and a new washing machine and has given it to the grand kids and told them to go there and find someone that desperately needs one. I believe in direct action rather than give to a fund that may still be holding the funds in a few months time.



Whilst that sounds great and is generous of you, Nioka, I wonder where the recipient will put a new fridge and washing machine when their house is a long way from being habitable?  Would it be better perhaps to wait until some of the rehabilitation of housing has taken place, by which time it's pretty likely much of the emotion will have drained away and all the passionate response we're seeing at present has dwindled to nothing.

In many ways, for the people affected, it will be a bit like the death of someone they have loved.  i.e. many visits and letters of sympathy at the time, lots of people at the funeral, but it's a few weeks later when it has all died off that often the affected person will feel most devastated and in need of some comfort.

Don't know.  I might be wrong.




> I have a lot of time for the Salvos and if direct action is not possible they would be my first choice.



Mine too.




Smurf1976 said:


> A national critical skills scheme is what I think is needed.
> 
> If it could be arranged that workers were still paid as usual and there were no other consequences for their normal employment, then I think we could get a huge number of trades people from the other states up there pretty quickly.
> 
> ...



Sounds good but what about the employer who is 'donating' the workers:  they will presumably have employed only as many workers as they need to adequately run their business, so if those people are seconded north, how will they get on in running their ordinary, everyday business?


----------



## pedalofogus (15 January 2011)

I was at rocklea cleaning out my wife's grandmothers house. Although there were no council organised crews there, a team of about 50 or 60 people from the hillsong churchshowed up. They were excellent! The young men and women that showed up were courteous, caring, and their assistance was invaluable during the day. A lot is said about hillsong church, and I still have my reservations about the true intentions of the church, but on this particular occasion they were unable to be faulted. And they bought domino pizza for lunch! Haha


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## Smurf1976 (16 January 2011)

Julia said:


> Sounds good but what about the employer who is 'donating' the workers:  they will presumably have employed only as many workers as they need to adequately run their business, so if those people are seconded north, how will they get on in running their ordinary, everyday business?



My thought is that it would be voluntary and there must surely be someone out there for whom business is a bit quiet at the moment. That plus state governments, councils, utilities etc could presumably defer non-urgent works under such a scheme. 

A bit like how the Army Reserve works. A letter is sent out which is pretty blunt - this person will be made available.

Jury Duty is another one that works essentially the same way - in most cases there's no real way for an employer to refuse to make an employee availble. It's just something they have to deal with.

So I'm thinking that if there's some $ being handed out then it's likely that quite a few will put their hands up to take it. Not compulsory for anyone, but I'm thinking that some would take up the offer, and some is better than nothing.

Floods in Qld, NSW, Vic and Tas. Fires in WA. And now we've had 150 km/h winds in parts of Tas too. The sooner this La Nina is finished, the better...

Meanwhile, there's always someone trying to take advantage of situations like this for their own gain. Floods in Qld dominating the news and lesser floods closer to home, so someone decides it's a good opportunity for a scam. http://www.examiner.com.au/news/loc...nings-of-flood-and-parking-scams/2048330.aspx


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 January 2011)

> Australia's foreign aid budget is up from $3.8 billion to $4.3 billion next year.
> 
> Foreign Minister Stephen Smith says the change to a new international standard for calculating national income will deliver $2-3 billion more to aid in coming years, and that is on track to meet government aid funding goals.




At present the Federal Government has offered $10mil. towards repairing damage from the floods. Yet in comparison to what is given to other countries, this amount is small. Does this mean the flooded areas are considered able to fix things up themselves? 

Certainly we should not begrudge other countries of financial assistance but the situation in Australia is comparatively much less significant than smoothing over relationships with the Indos. for example.



> In 2010-2011, Australian aid to Indonesia will be worth an estimated A$458.7 million, making Indonesia the largest recipient of Australian aid.




And the Boxing Day tsunami ...



> There are practical problems with the distribution of such large amounts of funds to a small number of people in a short period of time. For example, only around 20% of the Australian Government's $1 billion Boxing Day Tsunami package went directly to localities affected by the disaster.[2]  Common issues include:
> 
> * loss of donations through corruption;
> * misspending on areas that are not of prime concern or sensitive to the needs of affected communities at the time; and,
> * late arrival of assistance


----------



## Calliope (16 January 2011)

WHAT a clown Prince Charles is. This heir to the throne thinks our flood was caused by a cyclone, and he thinks we are overrun by "thousands of snakes...crocodiles,you name it". What a phony.


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## Solly (16 January 2011)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Having been through one huge flood and many cyclones.
> 
> Cash is what's needed mates.
> 
> ...





GG,

Yes Cash Cash Cash,  is what is really needed.

I know everybody is probably overloaded with the flooding.

If you wish here's a link to a few grainy wilds, sans people,
that shows what it's really like on the ground this afternoon after the cleanup attempts. 
Please scroll through to see some of the stills. They are also up on Twitter.

http://www.mobypicture.com/user/sollygc/view/8499370

I'm still wondering how this happened again, I'm looking forward to the drill down to look for the root causes. I have a feeling Can Do, Campbell Newman isn't going to put up with any double talk or ducking and weaving. I believe he's not too happy with this happening under his watch.


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## Smurf1976 (16 January 2011)

Not wanting to detract from the misery in Qld in any way, but: 

13,000 homes flooded in Victoria. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/16/3114016.htm

Transport chaos due to floods in Tasmania. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/16/3113867.htm 

And it's still not looking good in NSW. http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...lla-and-toomelah/story-e6frfku9-1225988919065


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## Tink (17 January 2011)

Yep Smurf, its been crazy on the east coast, Vic has gone from fires to floods. I feel for all affected.

I have been whinging with this 95% humidity which is so out of character for Melbourne -- I hate it!

Nothing compared to what these people are going through.


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## drsmith (17 January 2011)

Questions about Wivenhoe's release strategy prior to the flood;

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ned-if-they-dont/story-e6frg6zo-1225988018615 

With improvements in weather forecasting since construction, a likely future outcome is a more flexible strategy regarding the balance between storage and flood mitigation.


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## Julia (17 January 2011)

I suppose if the dam management had let a lot of water out and it hadn't subsequently rained, then they'd be in the gun for doing the wrong thing.

Given the long years of drought with the pitiful pictures of the almost dry dam, the temptation to hold onto the water must be strong.


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## Calliope (17 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> Questions about Wivenhoe's release strategy prior to the flood;




The usual crop of hindsight armchair strategists. One aspect which is often ignored is that *nearly half of the water during the flood peak in Brisbane did not come from the Wivenhoe catchment.* It came via the Bremer and Lockyer catchments, over which there is no control. 

It is really a guessing game to balance a controlled flow against a a rampant uncontrolled surge of water. I would be very loath to criticise those making the decisions.


----------



## drsmith (17 January 2011)

Julia said:


> I suppose if the dam management had let a lot of water out and it hadn't subsequently rained, then they'd be in the gun for doing the wrong thing.
> 
> Given the long years of drought with the pitiful pictures of the almost dry dam, the temptation to hold onto the water must be strong.



Strongest of all would be the temptation to follow the book. It's hard to be crucified for doing that, but easy if you don't, almost regardless of the outcome.


----------



## RandR (17 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> A national critical skills scheme is what I think is needed.
> 
> If it could be arranged that workers were still paid as usual and there were no other consequences for their normal employment, then I think we could get a huge number of trades people from the other states up there pretty quickly.
> 
> Under this system, those going to Qld would not make a profit from doing so despite the long hours they would likely be working. They'd just get paid (by their normal employer using government $) for the normal hours they would have worked in their normal jobs, with a guarantee of no impact on their normal employment arrangements once they return home.




You sound like your unfamiliar with the building and construction industry in general, because in all reality what your talking about is pie in the sky. No company that works in construction has any employees that are not engaged in work and already busy, otherwise such a company would be broke. Turnover of employees is brutal in construction, and its very very rare i have met any tradesman that has been with a contractor for more then a handful of years. People are generally employed on a job to job and contract basis.

Im a tradesman and i live in brisbane, this weekend and the couple of days beforehand i have used my work skills to help people whose homes have been destroyed. But honestly, theres only so much free work and time i can donate. In terms of plumbing, nobody from interstate is licensed to work in queensland, unless they hold a qld plumbers license. A license that takes 6 years to actually attain. There is in reality no army of skilled workers available to throw at reconstruction efforts. 

People will just have to be patient, rebuilding is not going to be a task that can be sorted out in a matter of weeks or months, but rather years. If anything else were to come up within that timeframe that required more from what is already a thinly stretched workforce (ie- another disaster) the situation could become worse.

In any case, I think everyone at the moment should just be hoping/praying that the tropical cyclone forming in the coral sea doesnt take a turn for the east coast in a week.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 January 2011)

RandR said:


> You sound like your unfamiliar with the building and construction industry in general, because in all reality what your talking about is pie in the sky. No company that works in construction has any employees that are not engaged in work and already busy, otherwise such a company would be broke. Turnover of employees is brutal in construction, and its very very rare i have met any tradesman that has been with a contractor for more then a handful of years. People are generally employed on a job to job and contract basis.
> 
> Im a tradesman and i live in brisbane, this weekend and the couple of days beforehand i have used my work skills to help people whose homes have been destroyed. But honestly, theres only so much free work and time i can donate. In terms of plumbing, nobody from interstate is licensed to work in queensland, unless they hold a qld plumbers license. A license that takes 6 years to actually attain. There is in reality no army of skilled workers available to throw at reconstruction efforts.



Private contractors maybe, but in utilities, local government etc it's exactly the opposite. It's rare for anyone to leave unless they have some compelling reason to do so. They don't usually go and get a similar job with another employer that's for sure. They leave either to change career, retire, or relocate. And loyalty to the organisation and the public tends to be pretty high too (with the exception of a few union types here and there...).

I've no doubt that I could find 250 people from Tasmania alone between Aurora, Hydro, Transend, DIER, the water authorities and various councils. That's electricians, plumbers, various other trades and general construction workers experienced with public infrastructure in particular. 

For councils and utilities, it's really just a matter of delaying non-urgent works to free up resources. It's how they manage things on a day to day basis anyway. First comes the urgent repairs etc. Then comes the priority projects. Then comes the "must be done within the next 12 months" type jobs to fill up the day's work. I have quite a few years experience running an electrical works crew doing just that.

As I said, I'm not talking about rebuilding houses that are wrecked. But I'm sure that local government, state government and various utilities could spare enough people across the country to at least get the public infrastructure, things like the ferry terminals and so on, fixed pretty quickly. And of course getting the power back on to buildings that haven't been destroyed and things like that too.

It just seems crazy to me that we're doing maintenance, routine equipment upgrades etc here in Tassie and the council is paving some footpaths and so on whilst there's outright chaos in Brisbane. The world wouldn't end if we left those sorts of things for a while and sent the workers to help out in Queensland for a few weeks.


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## Calliope (17 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> It just seems crazy to me that we're doing maintenance, routine electrical equipment upgrades and so on here in Tassie and the council is paving some footpaths and so on whilst there's outright chaos in Brisbane. The world wouldn't end if we left those sorts of things for a while and sent the workers to help out in Queensland for a few weeks.




And now it's Victoria. Much closer to home.


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## Julia (17 January 2011)

Woolworths deserve congratulations for having their stores here almost fully stocked today.  Their staff apparently worked long into the night all weekend.  Here in this SE Qld regional centre, I was told the fresh stock was brought up from South Australia.

Just a great effort so good on WOW.


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## GumbyLearner (17 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> And now it's Victoria. Much closer to home.




I have spent many years living in Queensland and have some great mates from there. Fortunately, I don't reside there now. 

While living in Brisbane I shared student houses in some of the places that were inundated with blokes from Rocky, Dalby, Chinchilla and a variety of other remote places. 

All I can say is I hope everyone can cough up some cash to help out as gg would put it. 

That's what is necessary now. 

I don't see why ASF doesn't start it's own cash appeal for flood victims. Maybe someone can talk to Joe about it. 

I hope my ol buddies/their families from student days are all ok.


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## Calliope (18 January 2011)

> *Australia says flood cost to top other disasters*
> 
> Reuters, CANBERRA
> Floods devastating huge areas of Australia’s eastern seaboard, including the nation’s third-largest city, look set to be the costliest natural disaster ever in a country known for climatic extremes, Australian Deputy Prime Minister Wayne Swan said yesterday.
> ...




Ten billion and still climbing. This should be a piece of cake for the Gillard government. After all. the Building Educarion Revolution was programmed at $16.2 billion of which it is estimated $5 billion has been wasted.


----------



## nioka (18 January 2011)

At the moment i am concentrating on trying to locate cheap caravans that I can get to those people that have lost their home. Either on loan, donated of available at a price that can be afforded, any offers?

Rebuilding will take time, a temporary home is what is desperately needed.


----------



## Happy (18 January 2011)

Rebuilding without change in plans and approach is doing the same thing, expecting different results.
For starters: NO CARPET in flood prone areas. 
No expert, but few tens of million saved here. 
Next time big water comes you just wash it, sanitise and it is good to use.

NO GYPROCK, NO MDF OR PARTICLE FURNITURE!
Possibly toilets, showers, basins and baths with lockable plugs, so no back-flush, less SEWAGE to worry about.
Want more ideas?
How about DRY ROOM that can be waterproof.
How about house built in some guides that can float on water and rise 2, 3 or even 5 metres and stay within those guides?
All sevices can have flexible connections.

How come we have special Building Code after Darwin Hurricane and no FLOOD building code?
Suppose one day it will come too, after all, smoke detectors were available for ages but not used by everybody now are mandatory.

As I said, donations and help are all good, but we cannot do the same thing and expect different results.
This 200 years event can be back in many people’s lifetime.


----------



## Calliope (18 January 2011)

Bligh wants to use her flood inquiry to put the boot into the Insurance companies. They have taken over from the banks as the designated blood suckers of the community.

Not a day passes when the media does not give cases of insurances'  alleged unfair practices, mostly anecdotal, using all sorts of pejorative terms. The whingers make comments like "I have been paying them for years and now they say I am not covered". 

Gillard even thinks they should make _ex gratia_ payments. Nobody has yet explained why anyone who doesn't have flood cover in their policy should have an expectation they should be paid out. After all you get what you pay for.

The insurance companies are businesses, not charities, and have a duty to their shareholders. I have shares in IAG and the last thing I want to see is them bowing under to pressures from socialists like Bligh and Gillard.


----------



## noco (18 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> Bligh wants to use her flood inquiry to put the boot into the Insurance companies. They have taken over from the banks as the designated blood suckers of the community.
> 
> Not a day passes when the media does not give cases of insurances'  alleged unfair practices, mostly anecdotal, using all sorts of pejorative terms. The whingers make comments like "I have been paying them for years and now they say I am not covered".
> 
> ...




Gillard and Bligh are already using the floods as an excuse for their inept handling of the economy stating the floods will prevent them from balancing their budgets to surplus by 2011/12. They will flog these floods to the death up to the next election.
I always believed Governments allowed for these disasters. I suggest they recind the $599 million set aside for the the Cancun Mexico climate change fund for a start.


----------



## sails (18 January 2011)

Didn't know about that one, Noco.  I googled it and found the info below:

excerpt:


> Today I announced further allocations under the *$599 million* of Australia’s committed fast start financing. These included:
> 
> * *$15 million* to the Adaptation Fund
> * *$169 million* in new regional adaptation allocations to the Pacific, South and South-East Asia and Africa
> ...




http://www.climatechange.gov.au/minister/greg-combet/2010/major-speeches/December/sp20101210.aspx

What is the "Partnership for Market Readiness" - $10 million...

And read this exercpt from the same article written in December...lol



> We too will be adversely affected by *increases in temperature. We will have less water * and will experience an increase in the frequency and intensity of extreme weather events...




Less water...hmmm.  Problem now we don't have enough dams to collect it for the next cycle of drought.

Still, it seems pretty sad that so much of our tax dollars are being sent overseas and there's possibly nothing much left for our natural disasters.  Time will tell how well labor can actually handle this massive disaster.


----------



## Julia (18 January 2011)

Happy said:


> Rebuilding without change in plans and approach is doing the same thing, expecting different results.
> For starters: NO CARPET in flood prone areas.
> No expert, but few tens of million saved here.
> Next time big water comes you just wash it, sanitise and it is good to use.
> ...



Sensible post, Happy.   I am having considerable difficulty in sympathising with people who have been flooded multiple times yet insist they will rebuild in the same place.
Why on earth would  you want to do this?  It's just like the people who lost their homes in the Victorian bushfires vowing nothing would make them leave the area.

OK, I suppose that's their right.  But I'm damned if taxpayer dollars or donated relief funds should be offered to them to do this.   

Many are uninsured.   If they receive enough taxpayer funds to make good their losses, then there is absolutely no incentive for them to insure in the future.

Sometimes it seems to me that we have about half the population who takes responsibility for their own outcomes, and half that don't.  The latter half seems to always expect that those who have been more prudent will bail them out.

There just has to be a limit to this.





Calliope said:


> Bligh wants to use her flood inquiry to put the boot into the Insurance companies. They have taken over from the banks as the designated blood suckers of the community.
> 
> Not a day passes when the media does not give cases of insurances'  alleged unfair practices, mostly anecdotal, using all sorts of pejorative terms. The whingers make comments like "I have been paying them for years and now they say I am not covered".
> 
> ...



People make the excuse that the fine print on insurance policies is too complicated to understand.  Yes, at times it does seem ambiguous.  But surely it comes back to the person taking out the policy to be quite clear about what they expect they are buying.


----------



## kevinkawahleung (19 January 2011)

I offer condolences to all those affected in this latest natural disaster.  I have been to Brisbane.  It is a beautiful city. 

Flood Emergency Information
Disaster Recovery Hotline:	1800 173 349
State Emergency Service:	132 500


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## Calliope (19 January 2011)

Julia said:


> Sensible post, Happy.   I am having considerable difficulty in sympathising with people who have been flooded multiple times yet insist they will rebuild in the same place.
> Why on earth would  you want to do this?  It's just like the people who lost their homes in the Victorian bushfires vowing nothing would make them leave the area.
> 
> OK, I suppose that's their right.  But I'm damned if taxpayer dollars or donated relief funds should be offered to them to do this.
> ...




In any disaster it is always the improvident who get all the publicity. Never mind about the fine print. What is hard to swallow is that anyone, however naive, and living in a flood prone area could expect to have flood coverage with a similar policy to someone living in a safe area.

The truth is they were prepared to take the risk rather than pay the steep extra cost for flood coverage. However the more they complain, the bigger the handouts.

Much has been made of Suncorp's decision to include flood coverage in their normal policies. Just wait until the claimants try to renew their policies. In the meantime Suncorp wll jack up the cost for *all* policy holders to cover the increased risk.


----------



## Mofra (19 January 2011)

Julia said:


> People make the excuse that the fine print on insurance policies is too complicated to understand.  Yes, at times it does seem ambiguous.  But surely it comes back to the person taking out the policy to be quite clear about what they expect they are buying.



It's a double edged sword - yes buyer needs to be aware of the myriad of definitions of "flood" (and there are many), but under the TPA any seller of insurance product has an obligation to ensure that the purchaser is fully aware of the T&Cs of said product. PDS' also need to have a plain English content, and as far as I'm aware all major insurance comapnies take great steps to ensure they comply with this. 

Many contracts sold face to face (not just insurance products) now include a tick sheet that protects the seller by proving that all relevant criteria have been discussed. It's a good idea that avoids potential "he said, she said" situations in the future. 

I'd be surprised if property owners in certain areas would be able to obtain all types of flood cover anyway.


----------



## Julia (19 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> Many contracts sold face to face (not just insurance products) now include a tick sheet that protects the seller by proving that all relevant criteria have been discussed. It's a good idea that avoids potential "he said, she said" situations in the future.



That's a good idea.  Even then, there will be some people who'll just blithely tick all the boxes without reading the details properly, and then make the same protestations about not having understood as they do now regarding e.g. the flood clauses in their current contracts.


----------



## Happy (19 January 2011)

Sadly, growing number of Australian residents get more and more stupid by the minute so to speak.

Many people cannot read and write or are below acceptable level to understand not even complex information.

Not to mention that “I didn’t understand” is fantastic excuse, accepted at least by the media.


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## drsmith (19 January 2011)

Nearmap has aerial pictures of the Brisbane/Ipswich flood.

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.468907,153.025475&z=14&t=h


----------



## Calliope (19 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> Nearmap has aerial pictures of the Brisbane/Ipswich flood.
> 
> http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.468907,153.025475&z=14&t=h




God one Doc. The house in the centre is where I was living in 1974. The water would have been a good 2 metres higher. The dam kept its promise.

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.521762,152.984177&z=21&t=h&nmd=20110113


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## Calliope (19 January 2011)

Like vultures attracted to a carcase, a swarm of trauma counselors has descended on the Lockyer Valley. As if the locals don't have enough problems without having to humour these drop-ins, and cope with their fallout.

We we lucky in 1974. The counselor industry was still in its infancy.


----------



## drsmith (19 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> God one Doc. The house in the centre is where I was living in 1974. The water would have been a good 2 metres higher. The dam kept its promise.
> 
> http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.521762,152.984177&z=21&t=h&nmd=20110113



Judging by the extent of "the brown", it looks like it at least had water over the yard at the peak. 

How high was the water in 74 ?

Brisbane itself was about 1m higher in 74 and the 1890's flood was about 4m higher.


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## Sean K (19 January 2011)

I'm not in two minds on this.

Did civic planners really think that long term weather patterns would not come back to raise river levels at some stage?

Did people really think that they were taking any sort of risk planting a home in a flood zone?

Do you ever commit your entire life savings to a property without understanding the risks of natural disaster in that particular area?

I dare say the answers to above is NO.

If we claim sympathy for obvious potential of natural disaster we are just another remora....

Let's build a city on a fault line, or with no concrete, or in the path of the last 50 destructive hurricanes, or next to a river that floods, or .... 

Take the pain I think.

It's almost like asking for compensation when your horse doesn't run in first. 




I do send my condolences to those people who gambled and lost. 

And to those people who didn't understand the odds. 

Maybe I'm being harsh.


----------



## drsmith (19 January 2011)

kennas said:


> Did civic planners really think that long term weather patterns would not come back to raise river levels at some stage?



Did civic planners and our political masters care ?

I dare say the answer to that is no and that to me is the underlying problem.


----------



## white_crane (19 January 2011)

Exactly where in Australia (or even the world) is a place that everyone can live, that is safe from every natural disaster known (or unknown)?  We have to live somewhere.

And why in the world would someone who has lost everything, including family, not welcome counselling?

Lastly, I take exception at the comment about people being unable to read and write or understand certain information and the implication that they are stupid.

My father is NOT a stupid man.  Yet he has problems with reading and writing.  Why?  Because he never had the opportunity - one year of schooling by correspondence was the limit of his childhood education.  Despite this, he has endeavoured to improve himself and now trains others in his area of expertise.

It is not a perfect world and we can't have a perfect life.  Really, I hope people can become just a little more tolerant and understanding.


----------



## Calliope (19 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> Judging by the extent of "the brown", it looks like it at least had water over the yard at the peak.
> 
> How high was the water in 74 ?
> 
> Brisbane itself was about 1m higher in 74 and the 1890's flood was about 4m higher.




The water in our yard was about 2.5 metres.


----------



## Julia (19 January 2011)

kennas said:


> I'm not in two minds on this.
> 
> Did civic planners really think that long term weather patterns would not come back to raise river levels at some stage?
> 
> ...



I'm with you here Kennas, both in your  initial sentiments and then on wondering if I'm being unfair to take the view that people do have a responsibility to look into the viability of where they decide to live.  For about an extra $100 before buying a property a solicitor will check out all you need to know if you don't feel able to do it yourself.

And for those who say they can't afford insurance, I looked up my insurance which is top available cover including flood (riverine excepted) and fusion.  Also includes alternative accommodation if property is not habitable for any reason for as long as it takes to return property to original or better condition.  This works out  at less than $14 p.w.   Many of the people who say they can't afford insurance would spend more than that at McDonalds or the RSL/pokies. And presumably a more modest policy would be a few dollars a week less.

I'm very pleased to hear Anna Bligh say today that the new enquiry/task force will be looking into whether people will actually be allowed to rebuild in these flood prone areas, or if they are, then there will perhaps need to be specific building codes which will ensure the houses are raised up considerably from current levels.



white_crane said:


> Exactly where in Australia (or even the world) is a place that everyone can live, that is safe from every natural disaster known (or unknown)?  We have to live somewhere.



Certainly.  But why would you choose to live in an area which is  known for being flooded?



> And why in the world would someone who has lost everything, including family, not welcome counselling?



Probably right, but I'm guessing Calliope was referring to how much of an industry it has become.   You only have to have some kid witnessing an unpleasant event for a team of counsellors to be summoned.

And actually I heard a discussion on ABC radio recently where a trauma expert suggested in some cases more harm than good can be done by rehashing a traumatic event.



> Lastly, I take exception at the comment about people being unable to read and write or understand certain information and the implication that they are stupid.
> 
> My father is NOT a stupid man.  Yet he has problems with reading and writing.  Why?  Because he never had the opportunity - one year of schooling by correspondence was the limit of his childhood education.  Despite this, he has endeavoured to improve himself and now trains others in his area of expertise.



That's a great credit to your father, White Crane.  I've tutored in adult literacy for many years and know exactly what you mean.  The loss of opportunity during the usual learning years is a huge disadvantage to overcome.

But I'm sure if your father wasn't sure of the meaning of something, he'd seek advice to clarify it, wouldn't he?  I'm sure you'd be happy to help with some of the obscure wording in contracts for example.



> It is not a perfect world and we can't have a perfect life.  Really, I hope people can become just a little more tolerant and understanding.




It's a good point, and goes to what Kennas said about wondering if we were being too harsh.

I guess we're all possessed of different levels of practicality and sense of responsibility, presumably as a result of genes and upbringing.

Hopefully, if the current terrible events do nothing else, they might instigate in more people the need to be more thoughtful about where they live and how much they are able to insure against potential disaster.

But sincere apologies if you feel any remarks here have been discriminatory toward people like your father who sounds to me like someone to be very proud of.


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## Calliope (20 January 2011)

white_crane said:


> Lastly, I take exception at the comment about people being unable to read and write or understand certain information and the implication that they are stupid.
> 
> My father is NOT a stupid man.  Yet he has problems with reading and writing.  Why?  Because he never had the opportunity - one year of schooling by correspondence was the limit of his childhood education.  Despite this, he has endeavoured to improve himself and now trains others in his area of expertise.




I fail to see the relevance of your father's literacy. Anyone living on a flood plain who does not take out adequate flood cover is taking a calculated risk. It's like driving an uninsured vehicle. Those who say "I thought I was covered' or "I  didn't read the policy" lack all credibility.

*If there is one certainty in this world it  is that flood plains will be flooded sooner or later*. That's why I got out, but whille I lived near the Brisbane River I ensured I was fully covered.


----------



## Julia (20 January 2011)

67% of inundated properties are uninsured.  Unbelievable.
It's suggested at least 20% of these will default on their mortgage.
I'd have expected that 20% to be more.


----------



## nioka (20 January 2011)

How about a little less criticism and a little more help. A hell of a lot of these people are affected by an unusual event. This is not the result of a normal flood for the citizens of Toowoomba and Grantham. You cant make provision for that sort of event. Even the residents of Brisbane were led to believe that 1974 would never happen again.

Instead of using the web to talk to one another use the time,the web and your effort to do something positive. Or you can donate to: 

Ballina East Lions Club Inc. Com a/c BSB 062502 A/c 28013264

They are raising funds to refit DONATED caranans to be GIVEN to Grantham residents that have lost their home. That is where the proceeds of my successful trade went to. That is where the proceeds of another trade today will also go.

So less talk, less criticism, a little compassion and more action.


----------



## nioka (20 January 2011)

Julia said:


> 67% of inundated properties are uninsured.  Unbelievable.
> It's suggested at least 20% of these will default on their mortgage.
> I'd have expected that 20% to be more.




I thought that it was next to impossible to have a mortgage without having the property covered insurance wise.


----------



## Mofra (20 January 2011)

nioka said:


> I thought that it was next to impossible to have a mortgage without having the property covered insurance wise.



Correct, but in my experience a mortgagor tends to be a little lax in reading the fineprint as well, so ensuring *all* types of flood are covered by a property would probably come a distant second priority for a loan salesman when compared to settling the loan. 

Many lenders don't ask for insurance certificates after the first year of the mortgage anyway.


----------



## nioka (20 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> . Many lenders don't ask for insurance certificates after the first year of the mortgage anyway.




With their name on the policy they would know that the policy had not been renewed so they are equally responsible if the policy had lapsed aren't they?


----------



## Calliope (20 January 2011)

nioka said:


> How about a little less criticism and a little more help. A hell of a lot of these people are affected by an unusual event. This is not the result of a normal flood for the citizens of Toowoomba and Grantham. You cant make provision for that sort of event.




Yes you can. Actually these are storm events and are covered by the usual household policy. Unfortunately many don't bother with insurance.



> Even the residents of Brisbane were led to believe that 1974 would never happen again.




Who told you that? Nobody ever led me to believe that, and I lived near the river. We were given to understand that the dam would take 2 metres off a 1974 type flood, and it did.



> So less talk, less criticism, a little compassion and more action.




I suggest you get off your soapbox and switch you campassion to the folks of the NSW Northern Rivers where there is plenty of work to be done.


----------



## Macquack (20 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> I suggest you get off your soapbox and switch you campassion to the folks of the NSW Northern Rivers where there is plenty of work to be done.




Your the one on the soapbox. Noika is actually doing something to help rather than just mouthing off about how it is tough luck for people without insurance.


----------



## Happy (20 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> I fail to see the relevance of your father's literacy. Anyone living on a flood plain who does not take out adequate flood cover is taking a calculated risk. It's like driving an uninsured vehicle. Those who say "I thought I was covered' or "I  didn't read the policy" lack all credibility.
> 
> *If there is one certainty in this world it  is that flood plains will be flooded sooner or later*. That's why I got out, but whille I lived near the Brisbane River I ensured I was fully covered.




I know youngsters that did not read single book last year, who maybe have skills to read and write, but for some reason don’t use, except maybe for Texting: lol ,xxx, ): and maybe few modified words: like: c u, gr8
4 u

In current: individual precious snowflakes society, that you cannot call fat person that is fat and not clever person that is not clever, suppose all we can do really is grab a broom and bucket and dig them out of the **** they got into.

Will they be clever enough to understand complex legal documents in not so distant future?


----------



## Calliope (20 January 2011)

Macquack said:


> Your the one on the soapbox. Noika is actually doing something to help rather than just mouthing off about how it is tough luck for people without insurance.




Yes, and he doesn't do good by stealth. If he hadn't told us we would never have known.


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## nioka (20 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> I suggest you get off your soapbox and switch you campassion to the folks of the NSW Northern Rivers where there is plenty of work to be done.




Sorry but I'll stay on the soap box. Somebody has to do more than just talk though. I spent the afternoon chasing up caravans, even got one donated to the cause.Only got home a little while ago, a big day for someone my age but still time for the soap box. Still got time to try and help someone worse off regardless of the possibility that they may have brought it on themselves.

I live on the northern rivers and know what has happened here. It is nothing like Grantham, Toowoomba and small villages in that area. That is why the Ballina people are happy to help out others. We help others that are worse off than ourselves regardless. Check out the other "flood" thread. I have offered to match dollar for dollar to $5,000 any donation to the caravan appeal that we are running if donations are made there and nominated as coming from these forums. Just as I do with my trading in shares, I put my money where my mouth is. Will you match me?. Will anyone match me?


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## nioka (20 January 2011)

Repeated from the other thread.

" Re: Donate a winning trade to the flood relief effort! 
Consider donating to a campaign that is giving immediate help and not to funds that will become tied up in red tape and administration, may not be distributed for months and may not go 100% to the victims. The "buy caravans and donate them immediately to those that need a roof"campaign is one that I am donating to. Money can be donated to the caravan appeal to: Ballina East Lions Club Com Bank BSB062-502 A/c No 28013264. where all the money will be spent to buy caravans and accessories that will be sent to Grantham immediately.

I will guarantee to match dollar for dollar up to $5000 donated and specified as coming from this post."


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## Smurf1976 (20 January 2011)

Someday, Brisbane will likely be substantially destroyed by a flood that far exceeds the recent one. It's a question of when, not if. 

Likewise Hobart will someday probably be razed by a fire storm, something which has very nearly happened in the past. And of course there are countless small towns right across Austraila exposed to the same risk.

And Darwin probably will feel the full brunt of another cyclone sooner or later.

Now, do we simply abandon Brisbane, Hobart, Darwin and a few hundred towns across the country? 

Do we then clear everything anywhere near the coast, including Sydney Harbour and the Gold Coast (amongst others) due to the risk of tsunami or being hit with a tropical cyclone? 

And then, just when it seems safe, we find that winds equivalent to a cat 2 cyclone were actually recorded in Tasmania a few days after the Qld floods.

Building where natual disasters are unlikely sounds good in theory but is difficult to achieve in practice. There's basically nowhere in Vic or Tas that ticks all the boxes, nor does anywhere on the East, West or North coasts. Nor does anywhere on flat land inland. 

We can't all live on a hill somewhere in outback South Australia. And of course if we did do that then we'd be living in one of the more lightning prone places on earth...


----------



## Aussiejeff (21 January 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> Someday, Brisbane will likely be substantially destroyed by a flood that far exceeds the recent one. It's a question of when, not if.
> 
> Likewise Hobart will someday probably be razed by a fire storm, something which has very nearly happened in the past. And of course there are countless small towns right across Austraila exposed to the same risk.
> 
> ...




Good points. While pondering all these imponderables, let's not forget two of the major overhanging "threats" to the planet as a whole..

(1) Massive EMP blast from the sun that "might" cause total meltdown of the world's electricity any time sooner or later..

(2) Rogue asteroids and a variety of sundry and as yet unknown space bits that "might" collide with our very own dust mote any time sooner or later..

The Earth is a somewhat dangerous place. We are fortunate to exist here at our peril. Life as we know it in a geological time frame is a fragile, fleeting thing. So we may as well enjoy every day we can manage to scrape out of our personal existence - including the tough times. 

Good luck to all


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## nioka (21 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> I suggest you get off your soapbox




This statement of yours still bugs me. Firstly coming from someone that consistantly uses a STOCK forum as a soapbox themselves for anything but stocks is the pot calling the kettle black.

Anyway what is a forum anyway. It IS a soap box. So I'm happy to let you stay on yours if you are happy to let me stay on mine.

P.S. any offer for the caravan appeal?.


----------



## pedalofogus (21 January 2011)

Julia said:


> And for those who say they can't afford insurance, I looked up my insurance which is top available cover including flood (riverine excepted) and fusion.  Also includes alternative accommodation if property is not habitable for any reason for as long as it takes to return property to original or better condition.  This works out  at less than $14 p.w.   Many of the people who say they can't afford insurance would spend more than that at McDonalds or the RSL/pokies. And presumably a more modest policy would be a few dollars a week less.




That's the exact point that needs to be made here.  It's not that they can't afford it, its that they didn't rate it as a high priority in their list of expenses.

I have 2 friends that live in the same street and both went under in the floods.  

One of them earns about $50k per annum, and managed to fit into his budget the top of the line house and contents insurance cover including flood cover.  He also manages to save about $500 per month and contributes that money to one of those Colonial Managed Funds every month.  As a result, he lives a pretty modest lifestyle, buys second hand furniture off eBay, etc.

The other earns about $65k per annum, and to save money he did his house and contents insurance through that Youi mob.  As a result, it doesn't have any flood cover, along with a number of other exclusions.  He also went out in November and bought himself a $4k lounge and one of those new 3D televisions.  He also spends every Saturday at the TAB losing his money and drinking his money.

As a result, the second bloke has spent the last week complaining about how he has lost everything, and how the government should pay for his house to be fixed up and replace his contents because there was no way he could afford the flood insurance on his wages.

The first bloke's insurance assessor has already been out and he will be receiving the money to rebuild and refurnish by the end of the month.

Why should these 2 guys end up in the same position after this flood when the first guy has gone without so much luxuries over the last 5 years to get himself where he is today, while the second guy has lived the 'high life' without even thinking about the future.

At the end of the day, people need to be accountable for their actions.  We need to stop bailing out the 'stumblebums' while continuously stealing from the people who do the right thing.  It's this sort of mentality that has resulted in a generation of people who don't take any responsibility, because they know someone will bail them out.  Let them suffer!  Throw a bit of chlorine in the gene pool!


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## Calliope (21 January 2011)

nioka said:


> Anyway what is a forum anyway. It IS a soap box. So I'm happy to let you stay on yours if you are happy to let me stay on mine.
> 
> P.S. any offer for the caravan appeal?.




If you want to advertise what a great humanitarian you are, then go for it. Whether or not I have made a donation and to what fund is none of your business. However if you are to be believed your is much bigger.


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## Lantern (21 January 2011)

Great series of before and after pics here.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/infographics/qld-floods/beforeafter.htm


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## Julia (21 January 2011)

nioka said:


> P.S. any offer for the caravan appeal?.



The people in charge of the recovery have strongly suggested donations should be of *money* for two reasons.  1.  Money allows them to spend where the need is greatest and most appropriate.  2.  Needed items can be bought in the local community thus propping up both morale and business recovery.

Have you checked with the places to which you intend to consign these caravans as to whether a suitable place is available for them, and for that matter, if they actually want them?


----------



## nioka (21 January 2011)

Julia said:


> The people in charge of the recovery have strongly suggested donations should be of *money* for two reasons.  1.  Money allows them to spend where the need is greatest and most appropriate.  2.  Needed items can be bought in the local community thus propping up both morale and business recovery.
> 
> Have you checked with the places to which you intend to consign these caravans as to whether a suitable place is available for them, and for that matter, if they actually want them?




Money donated is often only partly distributed. Take the bushfire appeal in Vic. Over a year since it happened and still not all distributed. I thought all ASFers knew that you didn't get value giving bureaucrats money to spend

And yes I am liasing with the people up there. They say send them up. They asked that we do not send furniture and white goods yet as they dont have anywhere to put them but vans , yes. The first two are organised for next week along with a garden shed. We also had a young lady give us her car, they said yes please. ( she is getting a new one, gave us the trade).

The reason why the people in charge of the recovery say cash is that it can be transferred electronically. They wouldnt know how to send a car. We have volunteers that will deliver it. Same goes for vans. With money the "recovery team" would spend the same money buying one van that we are using to buy two or three that will do the job.

P.S. Cant wait for ASFers, I have prepaid my $5000 of the deal to buy a van today at $5,500 which is going there on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. It was too good an offer to miss. It will be accompanied by another I bought yesterday. We also have had a couple of old vans donated. We are getting great value for our dollar.


----------



## skc (21 January 2011)

If you feel like donating items directly to the victims.

http://disasterreliefaustralia.wikispaces.com/


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## nioka (21 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> However if you are to be believed your is much bigger.



 I would hope not. The biggest donation that we have had so far is from a 92 year old lady, a pensioner. She told me, actually apologised, that she couldnt afford cash but she looked in her linen cupboard for linen that was still new to use to help furnish a van and added crockery and cookware. That IS giving.


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## pedalofogus (21 January 2011)

nioka said:


> Money donated is often only partly distributed. Take the bushfire appeal in Vic. Over a year since it happened and still not all distributed. I thought all ASFers knew that you didn't get value giving bureaucrats money to spend
> 
> And yes I am liasing with the people up there. They say send them up. They asked that we do not send furniture and white goods yet as they dont have anywhere to put them but vans , yes. The first two are organised for next week along with a garden shed. We also had a young lady give us her car, they said yes please. ( she is getting a new one, gave us the trade).
> 
> ...




I have to agree with Julia, money is the way to go.  I know of a few Caravan dealers in SE Qld that could desperately use the cash that they would make on a few sales of caravans.  Jobs will be lost in those particular businesses if sales dont pick up.

Re your comment about the Vic Bush Fires, in my opinion it is a GOOD thing that they haven't spent all of the donation money yet.  I think that too often after these sorts of things there is money (and donations of goods and services) that are floating around everywhere and end up going to the wrong places.  I think the funds from the Vic Bushfires and now the QLD floods should be gradually disbursed to the community.  In particular, funds should be retained for pschological councilling etc which will become a big thing a few years after the event.

By the way, what is the legal implications of the car that you guys are sending?  What happens if it explodes and kills someone 2 days after it is handed over?  Have the potential liability issues been considered?  I hope a roadworthy certificate will be obtained before registering that NSW vehicle in QLD.


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## Calliope (21 January 2011)

nioka said:


> P.S. Cant wait for ASFers, I have prepaid my $5000 of the deal to buy a van today at $5,500 which is going there on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. It was too good an offer to miss. It will be accompanied by another I bought yesterday. We also have had a couple of old vans donated. We are getting great value for our dollar.




Why the head banging?  Perhaps ASFers have no interest in building up your soaring ego. Most people I know have already given generously to the Premier's Fund.


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## Macquack (21 January 2011)

You are a very spiteful person Calliope. Noika is a decent bloke going the extra mile to do the right thing, and all you can do is bag him.


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## prawn_86 (21 January 2011)

Lets all take a moment to think about why this thread was created. Helping people who have being affected, however that mght be.

Readers can make up their own mind as to who is doing a good job. 

Any further derogatory posts will be removed


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## J&M (21 January 2011)

Well done Nioka for giving your time and money to the Caravans 
I am sure they will be appreciated by those in need 

People should not criticize you for helping in your own way 

Well Done !!!


James


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## Shape (21 January 2011)

it's a natural disaster - im sure we can all afford to chip in $1 a day extra.


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## drsmith (21 January 2011)

What do people think about a levy to fund recovery ?

If there's one for this, I suspect it may be long lasting as natural disasters of varying magnitude are not infrequent occurrences.

I'm personally against it as governments should be able to manage something like this within their budget. Did we end up with levies to fund brisbane's recovery after the 74 flood or the reconstruction of Darwin after Tracy ?

A levy too might send the wrong message in relation to inappropriate development.

The gun and Ansett levies of the Howard government should have also been funded from within the budget. Regarding the Ansett levy, guess who has a 14.9% stake in Virgin Blue;

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...c-of-virgin-blue/story-e6frg95x-1225992226191


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## awg (21 January 2011)

TV footage has confirmed that a lot of houses will need to be completely stripped internally and re-wired.

As per my earlier post re the Newcastle floods, this will take an incredibly long time, due largely to shortage of tradesmen.

It is often easier and quicker to build a new house than attempt to refit, as many home renovators and builders will tell you.


there will be an accomodation crisis at the low end, I dont know Brisbane, but cheap digs are often in low, swampy areas.

Insofar as the Insurance situation goes, I would have considerable misgivings.
To the best of my knowledge if you are inundated by a lake, river, sea, etc, that will certainly be excluded unless you have ensured that it is included (by paying more)

I thought almost every homeowner would be aware of this.

The Insurance companies certainly do, they are not charity. In most cases, if you want specific flood insurance, is because you face a risk of flood, and it costs a LOT.

What damm fool company would not adequtaly provison against a near certainty of flood ? ( by charging accordingly)

Where the problem issues arose in Newcastle was where creeks and storm water channels broke there chanels, causing inundation..I understand they were favorably settled, because the Hunter River never broke its banks. It was storm water, exacerbated by a King tide ( but deemed storm, not flood)


Showing the incredible stupidity of town planners, property developers and builders, my own house is built on a filled-in watercouse, with insufficient provision for water runoff. 

I sustained some damage to my property and called the Insurance co, the assesor came out and ummed and ahhed for a while, started giving me a tale of woe about months of delay, lack of builders etc. 

I said "how about $4k and I fix it myself" 

To my astonishment, he immediately agreed and I had my cheque within 2 weeks.

I have owned my PPOR since a young age, and only uncovered the facts regarding its construction after wising up.

When considering property, drainage is at the absolute top of my considerations.


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## JimBob (21 January 2011)

I stumbled across a website called HelpYourMates which is assisting people get the help they need

http://helpyourmates.com/all

People can either post if they have something to offer or if they need something.  There are heaps of people on there offering accommodation to anyone who needs it as well as temporary foster care for dogs.


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## nioka (21 January 2011)

pedalofogus said:


> I have to agree with Julia, money is the way to go.  I know of a few Caravan dealers in SE Qld that could desperately use the cash.
> By the way, what is the legal implications of the car that you guys are sending?  What happens if it explodes and kills someone 2 days after it is handed over?  Have the potential liability issues been considered?  I hope a roadworthy certificate will be obtained before registering that NSW vehicle in QLD.




I know a Qld caravan dealer that offered me a discounted van for $20,000 that he had advertised a month ago for $18,000. They are down here buying vans at discounted prices and selling them up there at inflated prices. They sure are desperate for cash, desperate to make as much of it as they possibly can out of other peoples misfortune. We are giving ours to people that couldn't afford to buy one anyway.

The owner of the car has offered to get a pink slip but that slip will not be recognised in Queensland and the vehicle will have to be rexamined before it can be re registered in Qld. The legal implications are easy. To give bona fide ownership to the people given these "gifts" they will pay the nominal $1.


----------



## Julia (21 January 2011)

nioka said:


> Money donated is often only partly distributed. Take the bushfire appeal in Vic. Over a year since it happened and still not all distributed. I thought all ASFers knew that you didn't get value giving bureaucrats money to spend



You don't have to give it to bureaucrats.  I've previously posted that if you donate at Woolworths your donation will be administered by the Salvos and in addition it will be matched dollar for dollar by Woolworths.  In most of the evacuation centres it was the Salvos who provided thousands of meals and other care for the evacuees.
They are competent and experienced in dealing with these situations, as they've again demonstrated.  I'd much rather see funds going to them than a few isolated individuals getting a caravan.



> The reason why the people in charge of the recovery say cash is that it can be transferred electronically.



You are ignoring what the people running the recovery have said so often in terms of cash being available to spend in the local area, thus keeping local businesses afloat.



> They wouldnt know how to send a car. We have volunteers that will deliver it. Same goes for vans. With money the "recovery team" would spend the same money buying one van that we are using to buy two or three that will do the job.



Pedalofogus has made some valid points regarding this.




> P.S. Cant wait for ASFers, I have prepaid my $5000 of the deal to buy a van today at $5,500 which is going there on Tuesday or Wednesday next week. It was too good an offer to miss. It will be accompanied by another I bought yesterday. We also have had a couple of old vans donated. We are getting great value for our dollar.



Why the bang head emoticons?   Why should you imply that you occupy the higher moral ground for sending caravans or cars, against the specifically requested cash from the people on the ground who know best what is needed, in contrast to those of us who have heeded advice and donated money.




drsmith said:


> What do people think about a levy to fund recovery ?
> 
> If there's one for this, I suspect it may be long lasting as natural disasters of varying magnitude are not infrequent occurrences.
> 
> ...



Agree on all counts.   I can just hear Ms Gillard if they ever did manage to get back to a surplus trumpeting that they 'managed the flood rebuilding and still managed to return the budget to surplus.'  She would conveniently fail to mention that taxpayers had been slugged with a flood levy.

She should abandon any idea of a surplus in this term (which was unlikely to be achieved anyway) and use an increased deficit if necessary to fund the recovery.





JimBob said:


> People can either post if they have something to offer or if they need something.  There are heaps of people on there offering accommodation to anyone who needs it as well as temporary foster care for dogs.



That's so nice.  I've been thinking so much about the abandoned dogs.


----------



## Calliope (22 January 2011)

There was an article in The Australian on Wednesday regarding the merits of building levee banks to protect low lying Brisbane suburbs.

While it was conceded that levees on the river itself would be both impractical and cost prohibitive it seems there would be much to be gained by building levees on Brisbane's creeks and streams, particularly on Oxley Creek. As the accompanying link shows flooding in the Rocklea, Graceville and Tennyson areas is not caused by the river overflowing its banks, but by the flooding creek and exacerbated by tidal back-up.

Rocklea is a large industrial complex and includes the Brisbane Markets and Graceville was the worst flood affected Brisbane suburb. I lived in Graceville in 1974 and we all knew the creek was the culprit.

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.539479,152.992558&z=15&t=h&nmd=20110113


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## J&M (22 January 2011)

Did you also know that the Dutch offerd to help Gillard 
This was noted on Radio 4BC last week
Her reply was thanks but no thanks 



Thanks but no thanks : Australia rejects Dutch flood offer 

They might be the world's foremost authorities on keeping land dry, but the Australian government says it doesn't want them - yet.

The Dutch government has offered technical expertise to Australia to help out in the devastating Queensland floods, but Prime Minister Julia Gillard has turned it down.

About 26 per cent of the Netherlands is below sea level and its flood mitigation measures, both from rivers and the sea, are widely considered the most advanced in the world.

Advertisement: Story continues below Leading Dutch news website nu.nl reported that the country's Prime Minister, Mark Rutte, had made the offer to Ms Gillard, but was told it was not required at present.

However, Dutch foreign affairs minister Uri Rosenthal would continue to liaise with his Australian counterpart, Kevin Rudd, over possible assistance in the future, the website reported.

Mr Rudd said there was "no sort of false pride" in not taking help from outside the country.

"It's just rational," he told Sky News last night.

"If we experience a major capability gap - I know what the army guys are like, I know what the SES guys are like, they'll be the first one to put up their hand saying, we don't have this kit - and we need it from them.

Link from the source 
http://www.watoday.com.au/environme...rejects-dutch-flood-offer-20110112-19nyq.html


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## sails (22 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> ...Rocklea is a large industrial complex and includes the Brisbane Markets and Graceville was the worst flood affected Brisbane suburb. I lived in Graceville in 1974 and we all knew the creek was the culprit.
> 
> http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.539479,152.992558&z=15&t=h&nmd=20110113




Our friends had their business in Rocklea and apparently not much can be salvaged. I wonder how many others have lost their jobs.

Our friends had about 20 staff.  If these all remain on the dole for a year, that could potentially cost the government several hundred thousand for each year they are on the dole.  That's just one business.

If that money were put into helping these business back on their feet, wouldn't that be more economical in the long run and keep the qld economy stronger?

Our friends are not looking for handouts.  This is only my thinking when mentally adding up the increased dole money the government may have to hand out each year with so many lost jobs in Qld as opposed to getting these businesses back up and running.

Thoughts anyone?...

Not sure if this map has been posted before.  It has a "before" and "after" slider on it so you can drag it over the picture to see what the landscape was before and after the flood.  It is quite amazing:

Qld Floods - before and after


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## Calliope (23 January 2011)

When Appeals money is handed out the provident needn't apply.


> QUEENSLAND flood victims are likely to face strict asset and income tests to be eligible for major payments from the Premier's Disaster Relief Appeal.
> 
> Former Treasurer David Hamill, chair of the relief appeal distribution committee, yesterday said the money needed to be directed towards those most in need.
> 
> *Victims without insurance or whose insurance did not cover floods were likely to be favoure*d.



(My Bolds)

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ts-to-most-needy/story-e6freon6-1225992650663


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## joea (23 January 2011)

In the weekend AFR and article by John McAneney and Kevin Roche titled...

"Man, not nature to blame"

This can be googled with above title, by writers.

It begins by saying...
The recent flooding in QLD. NSW and Victoria is yet another gastly reminder of the destructive power of nature. The cost of natural distasters around the world are increasing rapidly, fuelled by societal changes such as increases in population, wealth and inflation not climate change.

Good read. these guys are associated with " Risk Frontiers." (an independent research group)

Lets hope the official reaction to these floods is in " reducing risks" and not playing the blame game.
Cheers


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## white_crane (23 January 2011)

Positive thoughts and wishes to those in NSW and Victoria who may have some hard times ahead.



PS Julia, Calliope - I made no reference to insurance policies in my last post and neither did the post I was referring to.  Anyway, let's forget that.  Thank you for your posts.


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## Calliope (23 January 2011)

white_crane said:


> Positive thoughts and wishes to those in NSW and Victoria who may have some hard times ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> PS Julia, Calliope - I made no reference to insurance policies in my last post and neither did the post I was referring to.  Anyway, let's forget that.  Thank you for your posts.




My reference to insurance was in regard to your comment;



> Exactly where in Australia (or even the world) is a place that everyone can live, that is safe from every natural disaster known (or unknown)? We have to live somewhere



.

You have provided a good argument that where possible we should insure against  disasters, unless of course the risk is too high, then the cost is prohibitive and we have to cop the fallout.

My policy covers me against fire, storm, flood, tidal waves, tsunamis, lightning and earthquake, but because I live in an area safe from flooding the premiums are very reasonable. The odds against the other major disasters are pretty high.


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## sails (23 January 2011)

Looks like many flood victims will not be suitable for help from donated relief funds:



> Means tests are so restrictive that key grants are off-limits to people on salaries well below the national average or with modest savings or assets.




More here: Victims hit by tough checks 

The asset tests are $48,400 a year for a couple, or singles at $36,600 despite the average wage being about $65,000.  I wonder what Anna Bligh plans to do with the money if she is so severely restricting those who can receive it?

Anna Bligh did so well during the crisis.  Is she now going to blow it big time?


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## wayneL (25 January 2011)

For the "Qld floods caused by AGW" mob:


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## Knobby22 (31 January 2011)

Re: above 

lies, damned lies and statistics

Brisbane was never meant to flood again due to the big dam they built.


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## Calliope (31 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> Re: above
> 
> lies, damned lies and statistics
> 
> Brisbane was never meant to flood again due to the big dam they built.




Imagine that:shake: I lived there and nobody ever told me that. 

Lies, damned lies and anecdotal bulls**t..


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## Knobby22 (31 January 2011)

Calliope said:


> Lies, damned lies and anecdotal bulls**t..




Well, don't you think the floods have been mitigated in Brisbane over the years by the installation of drains (were they there in 1890?) a bloody big dam, widening of channels etc????

You can't say that Brisbane hasn't flooded much in recent times so therefore global warming is nonsense.

As I said lies, damned lies and statistics.


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## drsmith (31 January 2011)

The dam itself was expected to reduce peak flooding by 2m. Add 2m to the recent flood and it's still below that of the big floods of the 1800's.

Development on the catchment can have positive and negative impacts in relation to runoff and hence flooding. Unless these changes can be quantified, it's difficult to argue a net overall impact one way or the other.


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## Calliope (31 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> Well, don't you think the floods have been mitigated in Brisbane over the years by the installation of drains (were they there in 1890?) a bloody big dam, widening of channels etc????
> 
> You can't say that Brisbane hasn't flooded much in recent times so therefore global warming is nonsense.
> 
> As I said lies, damned lies and statistics.




There have been no flood mitigation measures of any note in Brisbane since the 1890's. Quite the opposite. There were 9,000 houses and businesses affected in Brisbane in 1974 and 22,000 in the recent much lesser flood, which was mitigated by the dam.

 In Graceville where I used to live, the flood height in my former home was at least 2 metres lower this time. In fact water did not enter the house. It reached nearly to the top of the doorways in 1974.


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## Boggo (1 February 2011)

This is a copy of an email I received from a mate in the middle of most of the current crisis.

This just seems to be amazing, can anyone substantiate this ?
(I have x'ed out the authors surname)

_Hi Doug

There has been some amazing great story's come out of the floods.  But there are also the ones that will never be told because in this country we tolerate idiots in government jobs and no one wants to point the finger in case it somehow blows up in their face. 

 Sorry, but at my age, I have become totally disenchanted and someone needs to tell it like it is, so I will start the ball rolling.  Please join with me to lift the lid on idiots with uniforms.

 Take Qld transport.  In Dalby district.

 Dalby hit the news with a record flood in the Condamine River that damaged the water treatment plant.  And water needed to be trucked in in the middle of floods.  Truck drivers worked hard to get us water.

Officers from Qld Transport booked drivers for so called over loading..........   what Idiots. 
Who pays?  It'll get squashed and probably has already, but what a waste of resources at a time when manpower was critical.

 Farmers crossing a road with a tractor to feed starving, flooded stock were pulled up, the tractor measured, and they were booked because it was slightly wide.  Not only that, they were forced to leave the tractor and go to town to get an over wide permit before they could move it back into the farm.  And this happened on an already closed road where the farmer was the only person around.  Except for the idiots.

 These are not rumors.  They are facts.   This morning, I was booked for driving down a closed road to check  livestock that were reported out on the road and, at the same time, pick up my employee who had walked over the bridge to come to work.  My house happens to be 50 m past the road closed sign, so apparently I cannot even go in and out my gate.  I tried to reason amicably with 2 idiots.  Of course I got more than a little agitated when they refused to let me down the road to my farm.  As a result they pulled a tape recorder, so I made sure that it recorded their stupidity. I even had to insist that they returned my driver’s license.  I'll definitely win the court battle as my employee witnessed the whole affair.  But what a waste of time and resources. 

 Over the last 3 weeks, there have been Qld Transport officers stationed outside our farm booking innocent locals for about 8 days.  2 guys sit in a vehicle with the engine idling and hazard lights on 24/7.  That would be 3 shifts, plus motel and other costs.  Now most of these guys were reasonable people.  I had to chat with them every time I went out my gate.  Some were idiots like my experience this morning.  But the real idiots in this case are the people who sent them out here to guard an obviously flooded and closed road.  And never bothered to check when the water went down, and left them there.  We, the taxpayers, pay them to be there and also pay fines for trying to get on with our lives in tough times.

 Wrote the above in the hour before I went to Brisbane to help clean up the mess in our flooded premises there.  While in  Brisbane I was told a true story about the truck drivers delivering food to Gympie.  As happens in times of desperate need,  trucks rolled out of the Brisbane warehouses stacked with as much as they could get in.  After all, the media was screaming for food for Gympie.  Queensland Transport then intercepted the trucks and fined the drivers for overloading. 

 What Senior Idiot in Qld Transport decided that he could solve Queensland’s financial crisis by fining drivers?  And sent dozens of men out to embarrass the Government when they could have been helping people in need.

 And did you hear about the farmer who was ferrying food and other essentials for himself and neighbors across the flooded Condamine.

Well, the SES and Police decided that was their job.  Apparently it is illegal for us farmers to even launch our boats to help ourselves or rescue our livestock.  So they sent him home after warning him that if he continued to help, they would prosecute.  As he was putting his boat back on his trailer on the other side of the river, he heard horns blowing and looked back to where he had been sent away from.  There were the professional idiots, in the middle of the river, sinking.  And, as we normal citizens are stupid, he had to re-launch his boat and go back and rescue them. 

 Apparently they had forgotten to put the plugs in the bottom of the boat and their training had not taught them how to simply put them in after they discovered it and then how to bail the boat out.  He should have let them drown.  That would be called "natural selection".  But again, they had been sent out with an attitude rather than real training.  So who is at fault?  Need I answer that?

 As I said at the start, there have been many, many great deeds by the vast majority of people, but when a society gets to the point that ordinary people are stopped from helping each other and are forced into submission by bureaucrats, Where are we going?

  Please add your story's and keep this going. somehow, we have to reverse the stupidity that makes our nation the dumbest in the modern world.

Our great grandfathers would be appalled.

 And if any of you have the personal emails of any Politician, or Media people, please make sure they get a copy.

 Gary xxxxxxx, Dalby.

_


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## Wysiwyg (1 February 2011)

It seems the emergency services personnel are told to disallow any public participation in salvage & rescue. Like when police turn up at a crime. Probably due to fear of losing lives or adding to their workload.

As for the Qld. Transport dept. officers actions during this extraordinary event, well some of those stories are over reaction by the officers who were themselves likely inexperienced.


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## Boggo (2 February 2011)

From another email I got tonight, a valid response to last years comment during the third year of drought in SA perhaps ?



_AUSTRALIA......YOU’RE STANDING IN IT!!!!!

What about the fxxxwit from QLD who said: (about this time last year when the “Banana Benders” were busy filling up their reservoirs with water that was destined for the Darling thence Murray thence S.A. when we were in our 3rd straight year of drought) “What falls in QLD. Belongs to QLD.”  Fxxk’em.....pump our excess water back to the bastards, sand bag the border & send the cnuts the bill!!!!
_


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## drsmith (13 February 2011)

The user manual for the Wivenhoe Dam has been revised.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...y-rains-forecast/story-fn7iwx3v-1226005307592


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## Whiskers (21 February 2011)

As mentioned earlier in the thread I sensed a degree of fear and anxiety in the hourly media reports by the Qld gov during the Brisbane flood.

This article seems to confirm how close Brisbane came to a disaster worse than if the Wivenhoe dam had not been built.



> THE hydrologist who oversaw the design and construction of the Wivenhoe dam has defended its operator from criticism that it caused the Brisbane floods last month.
> 
> Neal Ashkanasy made the comments yesterday as SEQWater, which manages the dam, began releasing 25 per cent of the water in Wivenhoe to increase its ability to absorb further heavy rainfalls.
> 
> ...


----------



## Knobby22 (21 February 2011)

That is terrifying Whiskers.

They overfilled the dam as it was, what if it had blown?


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## Whiskers (21 February 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> That is terrifying Whiskers.
> 
> They overfilled the dam as it was, what if it had blown?




Yes indeed!

If those figures are correct, and I expect they probably are coming from someone so closely involved with the dam design and construction, Brisbane narrowly escaped massive damage and probable high human loss from a Tsumani that would probably have dwarfed the Toowoomba flash flood.


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## Smurf1976 (21 February 2011)

The problem is not with dams per se, but with adopting a cheap approach to dam safety.

The fuse plugs are there to ensure the safety of the dam itself. That is, to prevent a flood from physically washing away the dam.

Raising the dam wall height further above the spillway and/or increasing spillway capacity would have been a more sensible, but more expensive, means of achieving the same result. In that case, the worst case downstream flood would not exceed the natural level, since there would be no above-natural release from the dam due to fuse plugs blowing.

In short, someone in Qld decided to save a few $ on the dam and there is a price to be paid for that. I do suspect there is some possibility that those who made the decisions simply did not understand the issues involved. That is, safety of the dam itself as distinct from safety of those downstream. Certainly the media does not seem to understand it, and I have yet to see anyone challenge some of the incorrect information being given out.

Fuse plugs in a dam is a bit like driving off the road through a fence and into a field so as to stop a car. Better than a head-on smash with a big truck but certainly not the preferred means of stopping. It costs more initially, but is far cheaper in the long run, to have brakes that work on the car and a properly designed and built dam.


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## white_crane (28 February 2011)

Flood no. 2 for the month, no. 3 for the season...*sigh* :fish:


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## Julia (28 February 2011)

Oh dear, white crane.  So sorry to hear that.  I was thinking of you today when I heard about all the rain in FNQ.


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## white_crane (8 March 2011)

Guess what....#4

At least I get to spend more time losing money trading


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## Julia (8 March 2011)

White crane, are you eligible for any of the payments announced today by the State government?  i.e. $100K initially for owner occupiers and a possible $90K later?

I gather you're being deluged again at present up there.
Many commiserations to all those ASF members in FNQ.


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## white_crane (9 March 2011)

As I understand it those payments are for people whose home is uninhabitable - which is thankfully not the case with me.

The first 3 floods were relatively minor/moderate.  This latest one is a bit bigger.  With more rain forecast for tonight, it could be another day or so of isolation yet.  At least I don't get inundated.

I wish everyone else in the affected areas well.


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## Agentm (8 April 2011)

*Re: Queensland Floods.. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!*

it seems the young survivour, blake,  he's only 10,  is getting your typical queensland welcome for having survived the flood.  his brother jordan, and his mum were swept away.. both perished

the way queenslanders look after their own suffering children... its outrageous imho

blake got the crap beaten out of him just the other day.  is being bullied constantly. and now has a broken collar bone.... and the thugs have a facebook page up.. 


''We bashed Blake Rice''.

his dad, who also survived, has had people laugh at his face over his loss..

they are now being forced to leave the community, relocate elsewhere.. as their welfare is in peril..

nice crowd those queenslanders are!!!

imho the biggest bunch of low lifes out there

of course there is no shame here... but i sure am ashamed of being part of australian society when this is the way we treat families devastated by what i think was a tragic flood.. 

we need to get some sort of support for the survivors imho.. the way the community is turning on the the survivors and going after them.. its something that imho needs to immediately stopped.. 

i saw a documentary on the weekend on the township of grantham.. and imho if your local and you know how bad the losses where, and your chasing down and beating up survivors.. your about as low as it gets..

huge thumbs down queenslanders..!!!

lift your game and get real!!!!!


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## moXJO (8 April 2011)

*Re: Queensland Floods.. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!*



Agentm said:


> huge thumbs down queenslanders..!!!
> 
> lift your game and get real!!!!!




This isn't just a Queensland problem. 
Personally the whole thing makes me sick. But media karma is a biatch, so I'm sure there is angry mob justice on the way.


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## sails (8 April 2011)

*Re: Queensland Floods.. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!*



Agentm said:


> ...huge thumbs down queenslanders..!!!
> 
> lift your game and get real!!!!!




I definitely share your outrage at this incomprehensible attack on a family that would still be grieving acutely, however, please don't tar us all with the same brush as these shameful, unacceptable imbeciles.

The large numbers of Queenslanders who reached a helping hand during the floods and with the cleanup would far outweigh the sick individuals that are behind this incomprehensible bullying.

I hope this reaches the news and the family gets the support they deserve and realise that these sickos are in the minority.  Hopefully, the perpetrators are dealt with severely in a similar way to those caught looting at disaster properties and send a message to other sickos that this behaviour is not acceptable.

Bullying is bad enough, but to inflict pain, suffering and humilation because someone has tragically lost a family member is sick beyond belief.

These people shouldn't be allowed to call themselves Australians and they certainly don't belong in Qld, IMO.


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## nioka (8 April 2011)

*Re: Queensland Floods.. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!*



Agentm said:


> i saw a documentary on the weekend on the township of grantham.. and imho if your local and you know how bad the losses where, and your chasing down and beating up survivors.. your about as low as it gets..
> 
> huge thumbs down queenslanders..!!!
> 
> lift your game and get real!!!!!




They are not genuine Queenslanders, probably not even born and bred there to have acted like that. Don't fret the genuine queenslanders will fix this problem the Queensland way. The perertrators would be well advised to move south for health reasons. Thumbs up to Queenslanders. I've spent some time in Grantham and have seen a different side to the story.

I'll give one example. There is a chap there who lost his wife and two children, his cars and his home and is left with one son. I was one of a group that organised a car and a caravan for him. He gave the car to a community group saying that someone probably needed it more than him. He also declined the caravan and it is now with someone else,
 that's the true Queensland spirit

Another example. Marty Warburton who lost his business in the flood is still working with the relief team. When offered help to get his business going again he chose to let that wait until the town in general was back on its feet.

I doubt those sort of things would happen often outside of Queensland.:


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## IFocus (8 April 2011)

*Re: Queensland Floods.. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!*



Agentm said:


> it seems the young survivour, blake,  he's only 10,  is getting your typical queensland welcome for having survived the flood.  his brother jordan, and his mum were swept away.. both perished
> 
> the way queenslanders look after their own suffering children... its outrageous imho
> 
> ...




Read the article and felt the same way poor little bugger but would expect most Queenslanders to be horrified by it as well.


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## sails (8 April 2011)

*Re: Queensland Floods.. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!*



IFocus said:


> Read the article and felt the same way poor little bugger but would expect most Queenslanders to be horrified by it as well.





Yay, we agree on something...


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## drsmith (2 August 2011)

*Re: Queensland Floods.. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!!*

Why wouldn't they adopt a strategy based on forecast rainfall ?



> The inquiry's finding that the manual was breached strips the owner and operator of the dam, the Queensland government and SEQWater, of legal indemnification and paves the way for claims for compensation.
> 
> More than 17,000 homes and businesses were partially inundated at an estimated cost of $5 billion in the January floods. Many people are yet to return to their homes.
> 
> The inquiry qualified its finding that "there was a failure to comply with the Wivenhoe manual" by observing that the flood engineers "were acting in the honest belief that the Wivenhoe manual did not" compel them to adopt a strategy based on forecast rainfall.




Whe're all paying for it now.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...enhoe-dam-breach/story-fn59niix-1226106273775

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...failures-on-show/story-e6frgd0x-1226106242050


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## Smurf1976 (2 August 2011)

One of the problems with using forecasts in dam operations is that if the rain doesn't come then you've just let out rather a lot of drinking water that could turn out to be needed. That said, using forecasts is legitimate provided that such forecasts were factored into the analysis which determined the dam's operating rules and accepted incidence of failure. 

That's like saying you can use price forecasts in your share trading, provided that this is how you did your back testing. But it's not valid to do the back testing one way and then trade another and it's the same with a dam.

As far as real, permanent solutions are concerned there is one extremely obvious point. Build another large storage, which could be an offstream storage (a dam not built on a river and which has no natural inflow) and then there would be no debate about Wivenhoe's operation. 

The underlying issue is that the dam isn't big enough to provide both flood control and a reliable water supply. To avoid a flood it is necessary to target a storage level which will result in complete failure to supply drinking water in a drought. And to maintain water supply requires a target level which is even higher than that maintained prior to the flood. Quite simply the storage isn't big enough. 

Build a new large storage (probably offstream) and that fixes both problems properly.


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## drsmith (2 August 2011)

Fair points Smurf, but there's more science behind weather forecasting than there is in forecasting the confidence of the human herd.


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## Slipperz (2 August 2011)

El nina DUH! Obviously all the warnings in the media about extreme cyclone events in the north last summer went right past the hydrologists at Wivenhoe. I think they may have mentioned extreme rainfall events as well.

Never to mind engineers are smart university people a bit like meteorologists really. Exactly who is the smarter of the two is a matter of conjecture at this point and a trust issue society will consider (hopefully) in the future.

Lets just assume next time the pacific ocean is considerably warmer than usual due to el nina and seasonal  winds are onshore there might be moisture laden winds heading inland with a higher than usual chance of bringing precipitation. 

Pro engineer tip....just because it hasn't been raining much doesn't mean it won't at some point :


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## joea (3 March 2012)

Well its time to comment on the floods.
If anybody has not had the good fortune to read "Back from the Brink" and "Beyond the Brink", I recommend that you do so. (Local Library)

Years ago the towns originated near the rivers, because there was no elaborate pumping systems  for water like we have today.

The Australian flood plains have to be rejuvenated with micro and macro nutrients, to keep the grasslands going strong. This is what major flooding achieves.

If you have a close squiz at some of these floods on TV you will see the buildup for roads and railways are actually the cause of the backing up of water, and thus the flooding. i.e. It cannot spread across the flood plains.

So basically mankind has not attempted to live in cohesion with nature and now pays the price. If mankind looks very closely at nature he will solve a number of problems quite simply. 
However as an Engineer said to me once, 'the best time to hire a Engineer is straight out of university. That's when they know everything." After a year or so they add experience to their resume.

So  because we have hi - tech media coverage now, the floods that have happened from the beginning of Australia are now looked at as environmental problems.

joea


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## Eager (3 March 2012)

+1.


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## joea (5 March 2012)

In an article titled "Moment of Truth on Great Flood". Courier Mail

This is an extract...
Bligh and Treasurer Andrew Fraser preferred full dams in late 2010 because of embarrassment over unreliability of multi-bullion-dollar desalination plants that kept breaking down. Full dams cannot mitigate floods........

Yes it was a drought we were coming from, but the dam was built to mitigate flooding of Brisbane, and the weather forecast were ignored by Fraser. He advised the Dam to be operated at 70%, and not the 50% design height to mitigate the type of weather they were warned against.

However I have not yet found the original comment(by Fraser) by the media.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h-on-great-flood/story-e6frgczx-1226268196622

joea


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## Tisme (11 January 2016)

This time 5 years ago I found myself watching the waters rise and some of my assets going under 4 metres of water.

I don't care how the authorities covered up the truth, I still get furious when I think about how the imbeciles in charge released the water too slowly and then way too fast from Wivenhoe Dam.

The fact the dam could have held far more water and the dam itself was designed to safely overflow without opening sluice gates was suppressed. 

The kicker for me was finding out that Suncorp have taken out the flood coverage clause of my 10 year insurance policy a few months prior, presumably because they knew there was problem looming. And the aftermath of watching a politically orchestrated "mud army"  spend most of the time sipping coffee and tea in buses staged at Mt Cootha, while the rest of the population actually responded by pitching in and helping with the cleanup, was angering.

Thredbo debacle, 2011 floods debacle and now we are looking at a Yarloop/Pinjarra debacle. Emergency Services et al, should be start looking at responding rather than stalling with risk assessements etc.

I'm still angry at the financial and emotional distress the half wits caused me; it ultimately fed into the demise of my wife....b4stards.


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## SirRumpole (11 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> This time 5 years ago I found myself watching the waters rise and some of my assets going under 4 metres of water.
> 
> I don't care how the authorities covered up the truth, I still get furious when I think about how the imbeciles in charge released the water too slowly and then way too fast from Wivenhoe Dam.
> 
> ...




That must have been very distressing for you Tisme, I'm sorry to hear your story.

There was an enquiry afterwards. Did you give evidence as to the insurance issue ?

This is obviously a concern for all insurance holders, Suncorp should not have been allowed to do that. Did they inform you of the changes when they happened ?

Is it worth you taking this further legally ?


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## Smurf1976 (11 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> I don't care how the authorities covered up the truth, I still get furious when I think about how the imbeciles in charge released the water too slowly and then way too fast from Wivenhoe Dam.
> 
> The fact the dam could have held far more water and the dam itself was designed to safely overflow without opening sluice gates was suppressed.




The worst case scenario with a dam (any dam) is water flowing over the dam wall itself. If that happens then the ultimate consequence (worst case) is it washes away or undermines the dam. Then the whole thing comes down and you end up with a flood of massive proportions plus a wrecked dam.

How excess water is dealt with depends on the design, which itself is a function of the specific site.

Most commonly there's a spillway. Once water reaches that level, it simply goes down the spillway and no human intervention is required.

In other cases water is released by opening a valve / gate. Proper operation of this is based on a set "trigger" level being reached, that being about the same level where you'd have put the spillway if that approach had been used.

In a few cases there's something more complicated. Eg at Liapootah dam (Tas), the top of the dam is basically a giant cylinder that rotates. This enables the lake to be kept at an almost constant "full" level whether spilling or not since the height of the dam is effectively reduced by rotating the drum in order to pass high flood flows without raising the lake's level. 

Key to all of these is that operation of a spillway is either fully automatic (water just goes down it and there's no way to stop that) or in the case of gates or valves, based on a proper engineering assessment as to at what point they should be opened. 

*Politics should never enter the equation*. Politicians aren't the right people to be deciding to store too much water and then flood the place. 

They aren't the right people to order the draining of storages to raise cash either, but that's another story....


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## SirRumpole (3 February 2019)

I know we have a few members in the Townsville area. 

I'm sure we all hope that you are as least affected by the recent downpours as you can be and I hope it's over soon.


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## Darc Knight (3 February 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I know we have a few members in the Townsville area.
> 
> I'm sure we all hope that you are as least affected by the recent downpours as you can be and I hope it's over soon.




FNQers are a different breed Rumpy. As long as the Beer doesn't run out. Floods, Cyclones, Droughts they see it every year. That's on top of the Taipans, Crocs, Jellies and various other local pleasures.
Best of luck fellow Qlders!


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## explod (3 February 2019)

My Sister staying with her Daughter were moved with army assistance 2 hours ago and now safe on higher ground with another member of Family.  There was a huge downpour just south near the dam about four hours back which tilted things to the extreme.  Had been without power for two days so phone etc were getting low lol.


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## Smurf1976 (3 February 2019)

Nature can be cruel at times and this is one of them.

Massive floods in Queensland at the same time there's fires in Victoria and Tasmania.

Meanwhile Adelaide hasn't had a drop of rain since the 16th of December when 1.4mm fell. Much of SA as since experienced temperatures in the high 40's so everything will be absolutely dry now.


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## SirRumpole (4 February 2019)

At least the Murray-Darling should get a flushing.


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