# Bludgers



## Garpal Gumnut (2 November 2008)

The first of the Boyer Lectures by Rupert Murdoch.

Should we listen to an American telling us what to do with our society or is he a sage?

From the ABC



"News Corporation chief executive Rupert Murdoch has called for a major overall of Australia's education system and says the reliance on Government hand-outs must end.

The media boss has delivered a blunt assessment of the nation's capacity to deal with the global challenges that lay ahead.

In a speech to around 500 people at the Sydney Opera House, Mr Murdoch has used the first of his six annual Boyer Lectures for the ABC to warn that Australia is ill-prepared for the global challenges it faces, including the current financial crisis.

"I fear that many Australians will learn the hard way what it means to be unprepared for the challenges that a global economy can bring," he said.

He identified several areas of reform that are needed among them the education system.

"We have a 21st century economy with a 19th century education system and it is leaving too many children behind."

Mr Murdoch also says there is too much reliance on Government subsidies, saying Australia is in danger of becoming a "nation of bludgers".

"While a safety net is warranted for those in genuine need, we must avoid institutionalising idleness," he said.

"The bludger should not be our national icon."

Mr Murdoch says apologies alone will not achieve Aboriginal reconciliation, but that Indigenous children must be given access to top quality education, which they currently do not have."

gg


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## MrBurns (2 November 2008)

I think he may have been talking about some of the posters on this site and I couldn't agree more.


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## chops_a_must (2 November 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Indigenous children must be given access to top quality education, which they currently do not have."
> 
> gg



Right... so he wants programs like this but by the same token isn't prepared to support the people in them?

And secondly, isn't it a bit rich him calling for improved education standards, when his media outlets rely on the utter stupidity of his audience to start with?

Stopping our unis from becoming insolvent would be a good start though I reckon...


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## Macquack (3 November 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Should we listen to an American telling us what to do with our society or is he a sage?
> gg




Murdoch is a turncoat.

Here are a couple of quotes from Thomas Jefferson which pretty much sum up Murdoch.

"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. "
Thomas Jefferson 

And on Murdoch's education vision.

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." 
Thomas Jefferson


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## nick2fish (3 November 2008)

For what its worth I agree... sometimes its good to have someone watching from the outside, who cares none the less, to speak his mind. If we don't listen more fools are we. What he said was a little nudge in the arm which we should all heed none the less


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## Ageo (3 November 2008)

3months of welfare then it should be stopped, there is plenty of places to get work (just ask a tradesman).

I also agree our education system sucks.......


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## saiter (3 November 2008)

How does our education system suck?


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## Julia (3 November 2008)

Ageo said:


> 3months of welfare then it should be stopped, there is plenty of places to get work (just ask a tradesman).
> 
> I also agree our education system sucks.......



So people who are retrenched in the coming recession should get the dole for three months, Ageo, and then nothing?   People with a disability preventing them from being able to work the same?  And those caring for people in order to keep them out of public hospitals and nursing homes the same also?

How are those people then able to pay mortgages/rent and meet all the other general costs of living?   So you think there are plenty of trades jobs available.  Perhaps there are.  As the economy slows these will become fewer and that will still leave thousands of people for whom that sort of work is not appropriate or possible.


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## Ageo (3 November 2008)

saiter said:


> How does our education system suck?



Because it was designed for the industrial age (not the 1 we are in now), gives no information about financial literature, relationship guidance etc.... many teachers agree the school system is in adequate. (My wife is a teacher and many of who co-workers say this)




Julia said:


> So people who are retrenched in the coming recession should get the dole for three months, Ageo, and then nothing?   People with a disability preventing them from being able to work the same?  And those caring for people in order to keep them out of public hospitals and nursing homes the same also?
> 
> How are those people then able to pay mortgages/rent and meet all the other general costs of living?   So you think there are plenty of trades jobs available.  Perhaps there are.  As the economy slows these will become fewer and that will still leave thousands of people for whom that sort of work is not appropriate or possible.




Julia i used the wrong word (welfare) i meant people that bludge off our system and have no intentions of working are the ones who should be cut off... as an example i live near Fairfield in Western Sydney now if anyone knows this area they would know that there is a ****load of bludgers, immigrants come off the boat and know their exact entitlements (my brother inlaw works for centrelink). All these bums are gonna appreciate the child bonus as they have 10 kids each and that will keep them going....

Im talking about the people who contribute nothing to society and continue to collect and live a happy life at our expense. These bums can get a job anywhere and thats who i was directing that at.


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## nunthewiser (3 November 2008)

HI, if i was to transfer all assets , book up as much debt as humanly possible , wait 2 years and declare myself bankrupt and go on the dole . would i be classed as a bludger or an entrepeneur ?


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## Ageo (3 November 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> HI, if i was to transfer all assets , book up as much debt as humanly possible , wait 2 years and declare myself bankrupt and go on the dole . would i be classed as a bludger or an entrepeneur ?




A bludger in my eyes and a entrepeneur in the governments  (as their system allows for such things to happen)


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## prawn_86 (3 November 2008)

saiter said:


> How does our education system suck?




1. It is no longer free, as it was in my parents generation. I would be interested to see a study of what would happen if tertiary education was free, how much that would contribue positively (or negatively) to output/the economy/GDP

2. It is geared towards city students. Country students have to pay double or more just to study as they have rent, food, bills etc, whereas city students can (mostly) live with their folks.

3. Not sure if its just me, or my degree, but it seems fairly easy. Whn i was in high school i was told uni would be a real challenge etc, yet have not found that. And trust me, with some of the people i see graduating you can see the standards are slipping.

4. The amount of centrelink paid to students is miniscule. I could not live on that amount, and then when i go out to work to supplement that amount they dock your pay at 50c in the $ so you end up working for half your wage effectively.


All that said however, I do still like living and studying in Australia, it just feels as though we are standing still, or going backwards slowly rather than improving as a nation.


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## brty (3 November 2008)

Hi,

If a bludger is the following.... (from urban dictionary)......



> One who lives off or profits by the work of others while making no contribution.




then we could include the following in that category.......
stockbrokers
share traders
accountants
lawyers
public servants
administrators/managers
entrepreneurs
politicians
unemployed
etc

None of the above add material benefit to society. They neither make, grow, repair, or teach anything.

This probably only leaves the following as non-bludgers....
farmers
manufacturers
trades people
teachers (who teach the above skills)

Notice the trend?? The bludgers are the higher income group (mostly)!!!

I get what Rupert is against, it is the low income bludgers. He really should be more specific, as that group of bludgers give all other groups of bludgers a bad name.

brty


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## prawn_86 (3 November 2008)

brty said:


> None of the above add material benefit to society. They neither make, grow, repair, or teach anything.




So if we had it your way we would still be in the dark ages with no advances in technology.

What about stockbrokers who ensure an adequate rate of return so clients can retire comfortably?

Accountants who make sure people do not go to jail/pay a fine for not reporting stuff?

Lawyers who defend the innocent/wrongly accused?

Define a 'contribution'...


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## aleckara (3 November 2008)

brty said:


> Hi,
> 
> If a bludger is the following.... (from urban dictionary)......
> 
> ...




Everyone contributes in the own way. However I must admit that there are people who contribute to the betterment of everyone a lot more than some.

I agree with the farmers, tradies, and manufacturers - would also include engineers (even IT ones), scientists and other social sciences, entertainers, nurses and doctors. I would not include accountants, lawyers, stockbrokers, finance professionals (ok some of what they do as a middleman is necessary but they have overstepped their bounds) in that category.

As long as you create something that people use now or will greatly benefit by using in the future, or enjoy or that makes their lives easier (reducing cost) you are doing a service. Anything that gets its income from red tape is a cost to our prosperity however is required as humans aren't perfect.

As for making uni free again - bad idea. I sincerely hope that less people get into uni generally and only start getting into what the country needs (trades, nurses are the top in my head). These are fundamental basic jobs that are needed and making university easier to get into when society needs these roles to be filled more is stupid. All it does is lead to the current situation where a lot of graduates find it hard to get jobs whereas tradies are getting paid the same if not more than a graduate salary with less education.


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## prawn_86 (3 November 2008)

I still maintain my arguement that lawyers etc are just as needed as anyone else.

Sure there are bad ones, but there are plenty of dodgy tradespeople out there too.

If anyones fault, the blame should be placed at the policy makers for creating such a complex society where lawyers, FPs, stockbrokers etc are needed and relied on so heavily.

Does a hairdresser contribute? They are a trade but not needed. Why cut our hair? Or why not just cut it at home? What about a tailor or a shoe repairer? Why wear clothes or shoes.

I think the arguement some people are putting across is flawed. You need a more specific definition of 'contribute'


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## gfresh (3 November 2008)

Those that sit on multiple properties and rely on capital appreciation year on year by large percentages to provide them "wealth"..


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## Judd (3 November 2008)

Oh well, if you must then blame the Hon John Dawkins MP, former Minister for Employment, Education and Training, who reintroduced uni fees (HECS) and reverse engineered the concept of a University to encompass Trade Colleges and the like.  As a result universities (then being Monash, La Trobe, Sydney, and the like) went from a 120,000 population to over 900,000 of a varying mish mash of what constitutes a University education.

At least they now can put some form of an acronym after their names.  The value of that is probably contestable.


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> So if we had it your way we would still be in the dark ages with no advances in technology.
> 
> What about stockbrokers who ensure an adequate rate of return so clients can retire comfortably?
> 
> ...




Congratulations you just named 3 of the most vile sections of society.

Stockbrokers are liars, otherwise they wouldn't make a living.

Accountants are needed to understand the ridiculous tax laws that shouldn't be there anyway so I class them as bludgers, they do nothing essestially.

And Lawyers ?, bunch of low class petty thieves.


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## prawn_86 (3 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Congratulations you just named 3 of the most vile sections of society.
> 
> Stockbrokers are liars, otherwise they wouldn't make a living.
> 
> ...




Do you honestly think society as it is currently structured could survive without them?

As with anything there are plenty of bad ones out there, but good ones also. What about tradespeople who do dodgy jobs/rip off everyone?  Or Drs and Nurses who go out and get wasted and then come to work hungover when lives are in the balance?


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Do you honestly think society as it is currently structured could survive without them?
> 
> As with anything there are plenty of bad ones out there, but good ones also. What about tradespeople who do dodgy jobs/rip off everyone?  Or Drs and Nurses who go out and get wasted and then come to work hungover when lives are in the balance?




No, the system supports them all, we all need them now, I've had extensive experience with all 3 and also tradesmen, hard to find one that knows what he's doing.

There are good ones of course, but once you've had a bad one it turns you off the rest, a bit like oysters.

I don't think GP's these days are much good, many of them can just prescibe the usual crap and dont look deeper.


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## brty (3 November 2008)

Prawn,

They are all paper shufflers.

With modern society, we do not need huge numbers of people to make, grow, repair and teach. However we do need to keep people occupied, hence paper shuffling is deemed good.



> So if we had it your way we would still be in the dark ages with no advances in technology.




What is my way?? Dark ages??

I think we need to be more careful in throwing terms like bludgers around.

Tell me, how have stockbrokers helped provide adequate returns to retired people in the last 12 months??? Have they been bludging for the last year??:

brty


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## prawn_86 (3 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> No, the system supports them all, we all need them now, I've had extensive experience with all 3 and also tradesmen, hard to find one that knows what he's doing.
> 
> There are good ones of course, but once you've had a bad one it turns you off the rest, a bit like oysters.
> 
> I don't think GP's these days are much good, many of them can just prescibe the usual crap and dont look deeper.




Totally agree.

So as i said earlier, the blame should lie with the policy makers, rather than the professions. The professionals are merely providing services to meet demand.


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## prawn_86 (3 November 2008)

brty said:


> Tell me, how have stockbrokers helped provide adequate returns to retired people in the last 12 months??? Have they been bludging for the last year??:




Depends on the style of the broker, and im definitely not saying all are good. But a GOOD broker perhaps would have advised shifting to cash at some stage last year.

What about 'repairers' who do shoddy jobs? Have they being bludging?

I agree that a better definition of 'contribute' needs to be used in order for this discussion to avoid going in circles.


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> So as i said earlier, the blame should lie with the policy makers, rather than the professions. The professionals are merely providing services to meet demand.




True, but nothing will change, there are no ethics in society so all 3 just use their profession to suit themselves not the client.


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## Pronto (3 November 2008)

Part of the 'bludger' problem is immigration related to our multiculturism mania. Of course we want immigrants that will share in wealth creation through their hard work and application, as well as by savings and investment in this country. 

By and large this is what we get, except for those that come here solely, it seems, to exploit the efforts of genuine contributors and an over-generous safety net which is too easily exploited. 

'Mediterranean Back' as shorthand for the long-term invalid pensions given to significant numbers of Greek, Italian and other migrants is so common that it is a cliche. 

We had the recent example of dual-nationality Lebanese living permanently in Lebanon on Australian pensions that screamed loudly for the Australian Government to repatriate them when the Israelis went on the warpath.

The second or third major source of income in Vietnam is money sent back from the West, including a high proportion from Vietnamese Australians. 

Yes, we have our own home-grown no-hopers of Anglo-Celtic stock but why we have to import additional non-contributors and provide for them at the expense of the taxpayer?  Bludgers, indeed.


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> Part of the 'bludger' problem is immigration related to our multiculturism mania. Of course we want immigrants that will share in wealth creation through their hard work and application, as well as by savings and investment in this country.
> 
> By and large this is what we get, except for those that come here solely, it seems, to exploit the efforts of genuine contributors and an over-generous safety net which is too easily exploited.
> 
> ...




Yes the rules are ridiculously slack, but hey ! who cares the taxpayer just has to pay the bill, it's a never ending stream of cash.

I knew of one Italian, who also doesnt live in Australia but travels the world partly supported by benefits he gets from here.

Imagine how much lighter the tax burdon would be if the Govt just didn't hand it out to all who ask.


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## brty (3 November 2008)

Society, has set up systems so that we need certain bludgers, a simple (maybe not so simple) change of rules would render certain 'professionals' useless. 

For example introduce a flat tax, no deductions. Tax agents of today become instant bludgers because we do not use them anymore. Their paper shuffling went from useful to useless instantly, but it did not change the fact that they will still be bludging off the rest of society (the people who make, grow, repair and teach).

In areas of high unemployment, if the dole was cut off, then they would not have any money to spend in shops. They are contributing to the local community by consuming and possibly reproducing (creating more future customers).

Are stay at home mothers with young children bludgers?? They contribute to society by caring and educating the young, who grow up to be 'workers' able to continue contributing to society.
If we had a stay at home mum and dad in the one family, Rupert would deem one of them to be a bludger. Yet by doing so, are they not contributing more to society than many childless paper shufflers??

brty


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## Aussiest (3 November 2008)

IMO he is right when he says our complacency will bring us undone. Just look at our immigration policies... letting foreignors undercut our workforce, and potentially letting terrorists into our country. I am sick of hearing 2nd generation Australians criticising our system and culture. A greek friend of mine's mother actually accused her of becoming "just like those Australian girls", when she was caught smoking as a child. If you don't like our country, go home...

Sorry, rant over.

Wake up Australia!


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## Ageo (3 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> I knew of one Italian, who also doesnt live in Australia but travels the world partly supported by benefits he gets from here.




I also know many thousands of Italians (and other european immigrants) who came here and built most things you see today. Of course there are bludgers in every culture/natio but there are many who dont deserve free hand outs.

This article purely explains productive consumption vs non productive cosumption.
http://mises.org/story/3169

Its also a good article of today's economic policies


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

> A greek friend of mine's mother actually accused her of becoming "just like those Australian girls", when she was caught smoking as a child. If you don't like our country, go home...





Oh no they wont go home , no Centrelink there they really are parasites, bludgers.

Not their fault though, the slacker than slack Aussie system lets them do it.


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## Aussiest (3 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> By and large this is what we get, except for those that come here solely, it seems, to exploit the efforts of genuine contributors and an over-generous safety net which is too easily exploited.
> 
> 'Mediterranean Back' as shorthand for the long-term invalid pensions given to significant numbers of Greek, Italian and other migrants is so common that it is a cliche.




It is the bain of my life how the Greeks exploit the system. I am yet to meet an honest one. Sorry, but it is true. Every person that has ripped me off in business has been greek. My Greek boss exercises favourtism by paying workers differently for doing the same job, and does other various illegal things. Little does he know i will be making a big fat call to the tax department when i leave.

I think the thing that riles me the most is that he / they believe they have the birthright to do so. It doesn't even occur to them to respect our rules and laws - the height of arrogance.

And, i am sick to death of Greeks talking to each other in their own language infront of other Australians. It's like, "we all know how to speak english, so why don't we do it? Is there something i shouldn't be hearing here?". I find it elitist, snobbish and rude. 

As i said before, if our countries rules aren't good enough for you and that includes our language, you know where the door is (but, as Mr. Burns said, there is no Centrelink there. Lol).

Sorry if my post offends anyone, but these are my beliefs.


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## Sir Osisofliver (3 November 2008)

Hey Mr Burns.

As an ex-stockbroker I 'm going to take exception to those comments of yours and say a few things...please comment in return.

When I advise a client to buy a portfolio of stocks in 2002 and the portfolio grows from $80,000 to $625,000 by November 2007.....

How *should* I be remunerated?

When I tell the same client to sell AWB at $6.00 and ABS at $8.15 and they *decide not to take my advice*... Should I say

Sorry, you're too stupid to realize that when you pay for advice you should take it?

Quite frankly the best clients I had were the ones who did what I told them to.  It's when they thought they knew better (or worried about Capital Gains tax, or got greedy or whatever) that there was invariably value destruction.

There's a lesson there.  As an average those of my client base who did what I told them to started this calander year with...

No margin lending or a certain minimum required by interest prepayment.
50-60% in cash

I think that's a better position to be in than if they had no advice at all wouldn't you?

I don't appreciate being told that I spent a lot of my working life in one of the 3 most vile sections of society. Since a LOT of clients became personal friends over the years, I think they would object as well. I don't know about you, but I don't shaft my friends, just people like you who P!SS me off. In future please don't make sweeping generalisations that *ALL* widget manufacturers (or whatever the hell it is you do) are kiddie fiddling drunkards. 


Sir O


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## Ageo (3 November 2008)

Aussiest said:
			
		

> It is the bain of my life how the Greeks exploit the system. I am yet to meet an honest one. Sorry, but it is true. Every person that has ripped me off in business has been greek.




Sorry to hear from your experiences, even thow im not greek i have many well respected customers that are greek. I spose everyone is different but you get good and bad in all (some more in others thow unfortunately).


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## nunthewiser (3 November 2008)

i see its a great day for bigotry and other small minded thinkers ......

a great big ONYA


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> I don't appreciate being told that I spent a lot of my working life in one of the 3 most vile sections of society. Since a LOT of clients became personal friends over the years, I think they would object as well. I don't know about you, but I don't shaft my friends, just people like you who P!SS me off. In future please don't make sweeping generalisations that *ALL* widget manufacturers (or whatever the hell it is you do) are kiddie fiddling drunkards.
> 
> 
> Sir O




Hey Sir O,

I know for a fact a large broking firm called their clients before the opeing one day to have a chat and drop a few hints that "X" stock had some good news recently, they didn't say "buy" they just dropped hints in the conversation, lo and behold there were a lot of buy orders for that stock and guess swhat , a large client of the firm was just by coincidence wanting to unload that very stock.

I also know of a partner of a large stockbroking firm who resigned, reason was (to his friends) that he couldn't stand lying to his clients any more.

I'm sure there are some good honest brokers, never been able to find one myself.


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## Aussiest (3 November 2008)

I don't think that by making an active decision not to trust people of a certain race, that makes me a bigot. I actually have a friend who is Greek. She pushes my buttons no end and i have had issues with her over the 'speaking greek' thing, in front of other Australians, when she knows everyone can speak the same language. And, she even snubbed me for my comments... 

But, at the end of the day, when somebody rips me off, i think very carefully before trusting those types of people again. And, most of the people who have betrayed me or ripped me off have been Greek. I mean, my friend even schemes and plots about how much money she can get out of people, and ends up working for people she backstabs.


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## gfresh (3 November 2008)

Aussiest said:


> I am sick of hearing 2nd generation Australians criticising our system and culture.
> 
> If you don't like our country, go home...




So they are not allowed to say the place is not perfect? What about someone such as myself, who's parents were born here, and who's grandparents were born in the UK? 

I'm pretty damn anglo, but I don't think anybody else should have any lesser right to criticise certain aspects of Australia. Just because they may not come from here, does not erase that right. No country is perfect and it is the right of those who choose to make their home here to point out it's positives and negatives. They have the right to go home if they don't like it, sure, but to be *told* to go home?

I like the place, but to pull the wool over your eyes and pretend that everything is perfect here, and anybody else who disagrees should go home is immature. 

So should I go home if I disagree with how something is run here? To where?  Please, I really hate that line, it makes us come across as morons. Whenever I see a bumper sticker with that on, it really makes me cringe as an Australian that that is the attitude of some.


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## Aussiest (3 November 2008)

gfresh said:


> So they are not allowed to say the place is not perfect? What about someone such as myself, who's parents were born here, and who's grandparents were born in the UK?




I grew up in an area full of Greeks. I used to make friends with all the Greek, Lebanese and Turkish kids at school. I used to talk to everyone, regardless of their race, religion or colour.

However, as i've gotten older, i can't help but become jaded by some of the practices i have seen. People spitting in the street, being looked down upon by foreignors myself. Working amongst Asians and Indians, where i was looked down upon in my own country. Having things thrown at me by an Indian girl, who couldn't muster up a "please" or "thank-you". Hearing comments like my friends' about her mother and her obvious disgust with "Austalian Girls".

You know, i gave everybody a 'fair go', when they got here, but was not offered the same respect in return. That is where my attitude comes from. If you magnify that on a larger scale, what do you have? Wider-spread disrespect...

I guess that's what Rupert Murdoch meant when he made his comments on 'complacency'. If you turn your back (and don't remain vigilant), things can very rapidly change.


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## qmanthebarbarian (3 November 2008)

I feel that the Australian work ethic even for those who are employed is essentially a veneered form of bludging. In large business and government here, its more about maintaining the status quo rather than being passionate about your work and seeking operational efficiency. Most senior people in those types of organisations get to their position by age, attrition and **** licking. In other parts of the world that are more important to the global economy its common to see people in mid 30's in very senior positions. 

In Australia you have a couple of options:

1. Work for someone else, maintain the status quo and enjoy the weekend bbq.
2. Work for yourself and do what you like.
3. Bludge.

Bludging is the line of least resistance and you get to enjoy more bbq's than 1.


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## xoa (3 November 2008)

Murdoch has a point. The problem is, mediocrity and complacency pays in Australia. Not just for stereotypical dole bludgers. Lots of middle class people (especially of Anglo descent) aspire to nothing more than a mickey mouse degree and a career in the paper shuffling bureaucracies. Their idea of innovation is a powerpoint presentation. Conventionalism is rewarded, ingenuity is punished. America has its problems, but we are even worse by many important measures.


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## qmanthebarbarian (3 November 2008)

xoa said:


> Murdoch has a point. The problem is, mediocrity and complacency pays in Australia. Not just for stereotypical dole bludgers. Lots of middle class people (especially of Anglo descent) aspire to nothing more than a mickey mouse degree and a career in the paper shuffling bureaucracies. Their idea of innovation is a powerpoint presentation. Conventionalism is rewarded, ingenuity is punished. America has its problems, but we are even worse by many important measures.




Too true!


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## Sir Osisofliver (3 November 2008)

Mr Burns



MrBurns said:


> I know for a fact a large broking firm called their clients before the opeing one day to have a chat and drop a few hints that "X" stock had some good news recently, they didn't say "buy" they just dropped hints in the conversation, lo and behold there were a lot of buy orders for that stock and guess swhat , a large client of the firm was just by coincidence wanting to unload that very stock.




I'm sure the enforcement arm of the ASX would be very interested in that...why don't you tell them? 



> I also know of a partner of a large stockbroking firm who resigned, reason was (to his friends) that he couldn't stand lying to his clients any more.




This says a lot about the ex-partner, that he decided that the way to succeed in the broking industry was to be a greedy liar and take shortcuts. 

So here's a hint...find out how your broker is remunerated. If its a good firm, the way the broker makes money, is if the client makes money. I.E. Managed portfolio on set percentages. The only way then to make more money from that client is to make them bigger. In that way the broker is working for you the client rather than themselves. 

Regardless of that however, the lack of ethics is not unique to the broking industry. Any industry can have ruthless greedy people who are out to screw you. Because large amounts of money is able to be made however it _tends_ to attract idiots that think only of themselves. Once again find a broker that's been in the industry for a long while.  Why would you want some kid who's ink isn't even dry on his degree anyway? Me, I don't have any trouble sleeping at night or looking myself in the mirror.

Sir O.


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Mr Burns
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So how much would you need to have with a broker to make it worthwhile to be paid on percentage of profit ? Too much I presume which means they are paid per trade, hence the incentive not to care too much about the outcome.


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## gfresh (3 November 2008)

xoa said:


> Murdoch has a point....Their idea of innovation is a powerpoint presentation. Conventionalism is rewarded, ingenuity is punished. America has its problems, but we are even worse by many important measures.




While I can see problems with the American system, where they differ is that they have the strong belief that they can be good at anything, that America is great, and usually will think of a plan to get to that place. There is very little self-doubt. 

Here we just expect to get somewhere (as a nation, or individually) without really thinking of long-term actions to reach these goals. We just in some ways assume it will happen, or the hardest parts will be done for us, or go copy what somebody else has done as it's easier. 

Then if we do not get there or there are problems along the way, we go ahead and blame others, rather than think of solutions and *make* it happen. Ideally people try and work out where something went wrong, revisit, and attempt again. There is the tendency here to simply dismiss it and give up entirely.


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## Sir Osisofliver (3 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> So how much would you need to have with a broker to make it worthwhile to be paid on percentage of profit ? Too much I presume which means they are paid per trade, hence the incentive not to care too much about the outcome.




Depends on the broker. There is a great deal of variation amongst them.

I some of the places I have worked it's been..

Upwards of 200K
Upwards of 250K
More than 2M
More than 5M

Currently I'm in a place where _every_ client is treated that way regardless of size. And they pay a flat transaction fee.

Sir O


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## Pronto (3 November 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> i see its a great day for bigotry and other small minded thinkers ......
> 
> a great big ONYA




There is yet another form of bludger: the person who is unable to see any sort of flaw or difficulty with the sacred cow of multiculturalism or with the status quo in other areas of contemporary Australian society dealing with ethnicity, race or colour. 

Comment, including fair comment, is greeted by this type of person with the kneejerk response of 'bigot' or 'racist'. 

They should try to get their heads around the difference between support for immigration for all persons prepared to come here and contribute, and those that either live here or come here that are not prepared to 'put-in'. 

The former group are more than welcome. They are also likely to be more prepared to accept the cultural, political and social mores to make it their home, and to do so without seeking special concessions funded by the taxpayer.


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## nunthewiser (3 November 2008)

Aussiest said:


> It is the bain of my life how the Greeks exploit the system. I am yet to meet an honest one. Sorry, but it is true. Every person that has ripped me off in business has been greek. My Greek boss exercises favourtism by paying workers differently for doing the same job, and does other various illegal things. Little does he know i will be making a big fat call to the tax department when i leave.
> 
> I think the thing that riles me the most is that he / they believe they have the birthright to do so. It doesn't even occur to them to respect our rules and laws - the height of arrogance.
> 
> ...




so this kind of attitude towards my ethnic brothers deemed ok but when i point out my thoughts on some of the posts here i am deemed a bludger ??? 

yep makes perfect sense to me


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> There is yet another form of bludger: the person who is unable to see any sort of flaw or difficulty with the sacred cow of multiculturalism or with the status quo in other areas of contemporary Australian society dealing with ethnicity, race or colour.
> 
> Comment, including fair comment, is greeted by this type of person with the kneejerk response of 'bigot' or 'racist'.
> 
> ...




There a lot of truth in what you say but you arent allowed to say it ask Pauline Hanson, but granted she wasnt credible at any level unfortunately.

I'ts increasingly difficult to find an Australian (White Anglo Saxon) face in the crowd in Melbourne these days and that is disturbing, we have given up the right to say "no" to immigration, we welcome all with open arms to the point where we dont exist any more. (well not yet but heading that way)


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## Macquack (3 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Congratulations you just named *3 of the most vile sections of society*.
> 
> *Stockbrokers* are liars, otherwise they wouldn't make a living.
> 
> ...




Why didn't you throw in your previous occupation as a *real estate agent*, they meet the above criteria.


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

Macquack said:


> Why didn't you throw in your previous occupation as a *real estate agent*, they meet the above criteria.




There's more lawyers in jail than real estate agents but yes there are some who are less than perfect. In the main the industry sorts them out , I've seen incompetent lawyers practice on even after complaints to the Law Institute, accountants regularly stuff up clients work and stock brokers? If you don't have at least $1M with them you are some young graduates "learning experience"


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## Largesse (3 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> There's more lawyers in jail than real estate agents but yes there are some who are less than perfect. In the main the industry sorts them out , I've seen incompetent lawyers practice on even after complaints to the Law Institute, accountants regularly stuff up clients work and stock brokers? If you don't have at least $1M with them you are some young graduates "learning experience"





ease up 

i do need *someone *to practice on!


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## MrBurns (3 November 2008)

Largesse said:


> ease up
> 
> i do need *someone *to practice on!




Fair enough !


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## Julia (3 November 2008)

Ageo said:


> Julia i used the wrong word (welfare) i meant people that bludge off our system and have no intentions of working are the ones who should be cut off... as an example i live near Fairfield in Western Sydney now if anyone knows this area they would know that there is a ****load of bludgers, immigrants come off the boat and know their exact entitlements (my brother inlaw works for centrelink). All these bums are gonna appreciate the child bonus as they have 10 kids each and that will keep them going....
> 
> Im talking about the people who contribute nothing to society and continue to collect and live a happy life at our expense. These bums can get a job anywhere and thats who i was directing that at.



Thanks for explaining that, Ageo.  I agree.


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## Julia (3 November 2008)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Currently I'm in a place where _every_ client is treated that way regardless of size. And they pay a flat transaction fee.
> 
> Sir O




Wouldn't there be a temptation with this system to encourage clients to do more buying and selling than is necessarily in their best interests?
I'm not saying this happens where you are, but I've seen it happen.

I'd prefer - if I were ever to use a full service broker which I won't - the system where the broker is paid a percentage of the capital invested and thus it's in his/her interest to work to increase the client's wealth.


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## gav (3 November 2008)

Julia said:


> I'd prefer - if I were ever to use a full service broker which I won't - the system where the broker is paid a percentage of the capital invested and thus it's in his/her interest to work to increase the client's wealth.




Yes but then the broker can manipulate to suit their own purposes.  Eg. If at the end of financial yr they earnt just enough to go into a higher tax bracket, it might suit the broker to take a 'small loss', therefore putting him or herself in a lower tax bracket - at the expense of the client.  Or maybe the broker needs some cash for a large purchase of some sort.  He/she may advise their client to sell immediately when it would be in their best interest to hold...


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## Glen48 (4 November 2008)

Bean counters to Bean pickers.[


url]http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/GlenM/?action=view&current=JobMarket2009.flv[/url]


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## Glen48 (4 November 2008)

MMMMMMMMMM looks like I need advise on loading Videos. Help


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## Glen48 (4 November 2008)




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## chops_a_must (4 November 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> i see its a great day for bigotry and other small minded thinkers ......
> 
> a great big ONYA




Lol yep.

I love it how a point about a poor education system ends up in a "Ahhh... they're just all educated idiots aye!" argument.

Shows really who are the idiots. Can't even form coherent arguments.

I've experienced therefore everyone...
I've experienced therefore everything...

Others have experienced differently, therefore you are full of ****.
Others have experienced differently, therefore you are a ********.

I would love to see what the Bulldogs would have been like without all those bludging garlic munchers and "wop degos" from Spearwood playing for them.

Hell, if it wasn't for all those bludgers, I wouldn't be able to get a great meal and coffee while bludging. 


Seriously people... do you realise how utterly dumb some of you appear? Ever thought Murdoch might actually be referring to _you_?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (22 November 2008)

xoa said:


> Murdoch has a point. The problem is, mediocrity and complacency pays in Australia. Not just for stereotypical dole bludgers. Lots of middle class people (especially of Anglo descent) aspire to nothing more than a mickey mouse degree and a career in the paper shuffling bureaucracies. Their idea of innovation is a powerpoint presentation. Conventionalism is rewarded, ingenuity is punished. America has its problems, but we are even worse by many important measures.




Xoa,

I agree.


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## Garpal Gumnut (3 December 2008)

Shortly many bludgers will receive $1000 from the Rudd government.

That is not to say that everyone who receives the $1000 from the government is a bludger.

However many bludgers will.

How will this affect our stocks.

? what stocks will increase in value as the bludgers release their windfall gains on an unsuspecting market.

FGL
JBH
WOW
HVN
WES

or your local dealer.

gg


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## Family_Guy (3 December 2008)

I'm a bludger, and i'm NOT proud of it.

I gave up work last year after 3 heart attacks in 8 months. I'm 37. So i had a bit of cash behind me and thought i'd take some time off. Then almost a year out of work, my accountant "hid" our cash (off the wifes and my name) for tax reasons or some BS and told me to get the dole. This was something i wasn't real keen on but off i trundled to centrelink.

Peoples.....there is a reason why few choose not to work. The Govt pays me and the wife $3400 a month. Why on earth would u need to go to work if you have no debts?? This has lasted for 2 months now and i start at Coles working for a mate who is a manager of the store next week, 3 days a week, 4 hours a day.......just so i can get OFF the dole system.....and to get out of the house.

I'm embarrassed by it. At first i was falling over myself in amazement. Now i shake my head at the stupidity of it all. And in less than a weeks time i'll be $3k richer.

The whole system stinks. But at least i got some of my tax dollars back.


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## numbercruncher (4 December 2008)

The bludgers are receiving even more than you expected.(probably mates of your Garpul?)

Maybe they can now afford a ham at Christmas ? Local buthcer will clean up. 



> Aged pensioners and seniors will get a one-off bonus payment - $1400 for singles and $2100 for a couple




http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,25479,24589799-5017313,00.html


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## Sir Osisofliver (4 December 2008)

Julia said:


> Wouldn't there be a temptation with this system to encourage clients to do more buying and selling than is necessarily in their best interests?
> I'm not saying this happens where you are, but I've seen it happen.
> 
> I'd prefer - if I were ever to use a full service broker which I won't - the system where the broker is paid a percentage of the capital invested and thus it's in his/her interest to work to increase the client's wealth.




Hi Julia sorry I missed your reply earlier,

Um actually that doesn't happen where I work... We are paid salaries not commission, so I'm not working to enrich myself at the expense of our clients. We also don't "trade" for clients. We teach them how to trade and give them the tools to do so, but don't trade on their behalf in a managed account structure.  At present we are setting up long-term portolio's of stocks that by and large replicate the asx 100 index (although we apply some analysis to the constituents of the ASX100 that bring the numbers down to about 50 stocks and still capture the majority of the index). All our clients are aware that this means they are unlikley to be selling _anything_ for several years, and depending upon the size of the portfolio have between 12 and 30 stocks in the portfolio with an average portfolio yield of 7.5% fully franked. The only time we recommend that clients sell something would be if a major negative event takes place in the stock. 

Sir O


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## Illuminated one (4 December 2008)

Macquack said:


> Murdoch is a turncoat.
> 
> Here are a couple of quotes from Thomas Jefferson which pretty much sum up Murdoch.
> 
> ...




Very good post QFT! 

This idiot is 'Calling for an overhaul' on the Australian education system, when he spews out venom and misleading propaganda in his media outlets, idiotic comments like saying we are 'bludgers', how about he give a few million to help the poor people around Australia?

And i know some of the richest people that haven't even gone to school, They basically say that life experience and hard work is the best teacher, and don't listen to all the garbage that the news media tells you.

Yes, the education system is poor, but that's because the Government is paying teachers very poorly and when the teachers strike, they don't move an inch to hear them out.

*HUMANS WHERE MEANT TO BE FREE***


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## Julia (4 December 2008)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Hi Julia sorry I missed your reply earlier,
> 
> Um actually that doesn't happen where I work... We are paid salaries not commission, so I'm not working to enrich myself at the expense of our clients. We also don't "trade" for clients. We teach them how to trade and give them the tools to do so, but don't trade on their behalf in a managed account structure.  At present we are setting up long-term portolio's of stocks that by and large replicate the asx 100 index (although we apply some analysis to the constituents of the ASX100 that bring the numbers down to about 50 stocks and still capture the majority of the index). All our clients are aware that this means they are unlikley to be selling _anything_ for several years, and depending upon the size of the portfolio have between 12 and 30 stocks in the portfolio with an average portfolio yield of 7.5% fully franked. The only time we recommend that clients sell something would be if a major negative event takes place in the stock.
> 
> Sir O



Hi Sir O, that sounds like a good arrangement.  So do your clients - if they are doing their own trading - use an online broker?   You don't place the actual trades and charge them brokerage?

How do you get paid by the client?


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## Sir Osisofliver (4 December 2008)

Julia said:


> Hi Sir O, that sounds like a good arrangement.  So do your clients - if they are doing their own trading - use an online broker?   You don't place the actual trades and charge them brokerage?
> 
> How do you get paid by the client?




Julia,

Our clients use whatever broker they wish to use for their trading, most use online brokers. What we do is construct longer term portfolio's in line with economic cycles. The company recommends it's clients enter the share market in line with economic cycles, so in '02 we entered and we recommended that they begin reducing their holdings in October last year, and November, and December and they were all out of the market in their long term portfolio's by March. We are only now getting back in over the last 8 weeks in certain stocks and sectors of the market for long-term holds. For these long term holds we charge a fixed price brokerage charge (same price for a $10,000 or a $1,000,000 trade) and a very small ongoing management fee. 

Sir O


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## numbercruncher (4 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Very good post QFT!
> 
> This idiot is 'Calling for an overhaul' on the Australian education system, when he spews out venom and misleading propaganda in his media outlets, idiotic comments like saying we are 'bludgers', how about he give a few million to help the poor people around Australia?
> 
> ...






I cant stand the idiot either, you can tell hes begging to sit on the board of directors in the new world order, he has bet everything he has on Globilisation - I hope it all gos to poo for him(and globilisation).

And how embarassing is it to us all that he can call him self an Australian, omg ....


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## It's Snake Pliskin (4 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Very good post QFT!
> 
> This idiot is 'Calling for an overhaul' on the Australian education system, when he spews out venom and misleading propaganda in his media outlets, idiotic comments like saying we are 'bludgers', how about he give a few million to help the poor people around Australia?
> 
> ...




Sad situation.

Where or were?


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