# Propaganda in movies and media



## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

I found this definition of propaganda .... 
And I just wonder if people can recall (even read current examples of ) classic propaganda events / news relases etc.

I guess the Nazis would have been amongst the first to perfect this stuff.  Since then it has been copied by the Communists - and of course our own politicians (imo). 

But this definition of propaganda was given during questioning of Ayn Rand at the House of Representatives' Committee on Un-American Activities (commonly known as the House Un-American Activities Committee, or HUAC1) on October 20, 1947 - a few years before McCarthy, but similar.

Next post I'll add some cross-examination.  I'm not saying she's entirely wrong .  But she sure as hell comes to the subject with her own prejudices. 

I mean, I wonder if Ayn would give the Russians credit that they lost  23,000,000 people during WWII - compared to USA's 420,000.  (i.e. 55 Russians died for each US death).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

And that a lot of Americans were almost certainly not aware of that fact then (or now for that matter) 

http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/texts/huac.html



> Stripling: Did you at the request of Mr. Smith, the investigator for this committee, view the picture Song of Russia?
> 
> Rand: Yes.
> 
> ...



so the USA wouldn't do something like that? 



> As a writer, I can tell you just exactly what it suggests to the people. It suggests literally and technically that it is quite all right for the American national anthem to dissolve into the Soviet. The term here is more than just technical. It really was symbolically intended, and it worked out that way. The anthem continues, played by a Soviet band. That is the beginning of the picture.
> 
> ....... The picture then goes into a scene of Moscow, supposedly. I don't know where the studio got its shots, but I have never seen anything like it in Russia. First you see Moscow buildings -- big, prosperous-looking, .....
> 
> ...




btw Ayn - if things were tough before the revolution,  Do you think perhaps that's why they had the revolution? 



> Now, here is the life in the Soviet village as presented in Song of Russia. You see the happy peasants. ....
> 
> Now, here comes the crucial point of the picture. In the midst of this concert, .... you see a scene on the border of the U.S.S.R. You have a very lovely modernistic sign saying "U.S.S.R." I would just like to remind you that that is the border where probably thousands of people have died trying to escape out of this lovely paradise. It shows the U.S.S.R. sign, and there is a border guard standing. He is listening to the concert. Then there is a scene inside kind of a guardhouse where the guards are listening to the same concert, the beautiful Tschaikowsky music, and they are playing chess.




so at least she credits them with knowing something about music -  and chess I guess - 


> *Suddenly there is a Nazi attack on them. The poor, sweet Russians were unprepared.
> ....
> Now, then, the heroine decides that she wants to stay in Russia. *Taylor would like to take her out of the country, but she says no, her place is here, she has to fight the war. Here is the line, as nearly exact as I could mark it while watching the picture:
> 
> ...




"that a choice group of .. leaders will tell the people lies " - you're kidding!!
...


> My whole point about the picture is this: I fully believe Mr. Mayer when he says that he did not make a Communist picture. To do him justice, I can tell you I noticed, by watching the picture, where there was an effort to cut propaganda out. I believe he tried to cut propaganda out of the picture, but the terrible thing is the carelessness with ideas, not realizing that the mere presentation of that kind of happy existence in a country of slavery and horror is terrible because it is propaganda. You are telling people that it is all right to live in a totalitarian state.
> .....
> 
> Stripling: That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

> Suddenly there is a Nazi attack on them. The poor, sweet Russians were unprepared.



Hate to say it Ayn, but (ignoring your emotive propaganda adjectives) that's exactly what DID happen. 

As I read somewhere, Barbarossa (the attack on Russia) happened June 1941 
"When war came, Stalin and his colleagues were in the unusual position of being both unsurprised and unprepared...   The Soviet formations were taken catastrophically by surprise. ,,,, At Kiev alone , 500,000 prisoners were taken"  etc 

Meanwhile here's that cross-eamination of Ayn Rand on the matter ....

http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/texts/huac.html


> Stripling: That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
> 
> Chairman Thomas: Mr. Wood.
> 
> ...



Sheesh - like arguing with my mother in law !
(PS don;t tell her I said that


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

Finally I should have said the movie was made in 1944.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036378/

I found this comment on that link .... 



> I really cannot comment on its artistic value so many years later, however, as a young person  (with my Father overseas) during that point in history, it was something to see to bring closer the effects and personality of war. The one poignant thing about the movie that I still remember clearly was the playing of Tchaikovsky's very famous Piano Concerto #1 in B-Flat. It was my first real introduction to classical music. If nothing else, I am thankful for the film bringing this to me, for it and classical music have played an enormous part in my life ever since! It led me to study music and have been professionally involved in music all my working life. My thanks go to "Song Of Russia" and Tchaikovsky




At least someone found it a positive


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## juw177 (17 May 2008)

I don't understand your thread. Are you trying to point out the times in history when propaganda was in full effect? And that it was all started by Nazi Germany?

Then I say that all our movies and media that are portraying the Third Reich as unique and the worse crime in human history (while other crimes are played down or censored) is Zionist propaganda.

There is propaganda every place and time where there is a powerful elite with a motive. The situation now is, countries not a part of the "free world" have their views controlled by their government. Countries that are part of the "free world" have their views controlled by the (exponentially more powerful) Hollywood, giant corporate media outlets and consumer advertising.


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

juw,   I just thought we could have a thread where alleged propaganda could be discussed.  - hell might even make us more aware of tainted articles...

Also movies / articles which appear to tell it straight (Charlie Wilson's War) where we really should have supported the Mujahadeen when the Russians left - and probably avoided the entire Taliban / Afghanistan problem ..

- so enlightening when you see a movie that tells it straight ( eg the Russian movie "Burnt By the Sun", Academy Award for Best Foreign Movie, 1994) 

- the movies where the US military so happily cooperate (because they are pro-war) (Top Gun) 

- the ones where they don't  (because they aren't)

- the idiosyncrasies where it is fashionable to support the Mujahadeen one day, (Rambo III),  but not the next 

- those movies / press articles which take on the establishment

- and those which suck up to it

and possibly make the observation that so many announcements from the powers-that-be - the White House etc - have very little in common with the truth - and/or so obviously and heavily biased, or appear intended to steer the minds of a public who would have to be pretty gullible to swallow half of it etc .


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## juw177 (17 May 2008)

Though I have seen Burnt by the Sun I am not much of an expert on foreign stuff. Had the Soviets won the cold war, the movie would be completely different.



> Also movies / articles which appear to tell it straight



Many excellent US made documentaries and indy media sites. I can think of very few from the mainstream.

Buffalo Soldiers may be of interest, though not very heavy:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252299/

Jarhead
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418763/




> - the movies where the US military so happily cooperate (because they are pro-war) (Top Gun)



99% of them. There is always a hero in the military.



> - those movies / press articles which take on the establishment




I find that many movies give an impression that it is "taking on the establishment" when they are actually diverting attention from the more serious issues. They tend to simplify the issues into black and white and downplay the reality in favor of the drama.


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## Garpal Gumnut (17 May 2008)

2020 would this include Hanoi Jane, Jane Fonda , posing on a Vietnamese artillery gun during the Vietnam war?

Great propoganda at the time for a ruthless regime, which subsequently came back to bite her. 

I don't have a link

gg


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

At the time I guess she believed what she was doing 
- she just happened to be ahead of her time, since these days everyone has come to better understand the Vietnam situation.

The "Domino theory" (which we all believed at the time - indoctrinated as we were) was completely false obviously. 

By propaganda, I'd probably put this first youtube as "right up there" - this bloke trying to rewrite history - where others have admitted killing JFK.  (see Flint, second youtube). 

 O'Reilly's Guest Certain Oswald Killed Kennedy Alone

 Jim Garrison on the JFK assassination


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## stockGURU (17 May 2008)

The left and the right are equally capable of propaganda. Both sides buy into the propaganda of their own side and embrace it as the unquestionable truth.

To balance this thread a little here is some left wing propaganda exposed:

The stranded polar bears hoax:



Al Gore's Global Warming Swindle:




Bowling for Truth: A comprehensive expose of Michael Moore's lies and distortions in Bowling For Columbine: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

stockGURU said:


> 1.The stranded polar bears hoax:
> 
> 2. Al Gore's Global Warming Swindle:
> 
> 3. Bowling for Truth: .. Michael Moore's lies and distortions in Bowling For Columbine: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html



Well sg, I'd disagree with you on the first two and probably the third (btw, I take it you agree that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone - that you agree that the CIA was involved etc). 

1.  gee that alleged polar bear hoax thing is all about the authenticity of a photograph !(?) - and it is therefore a hoax if you claim that the polar bear is indeed threatened.(?)   - talk about crazy logic!

btw , this youtube is a bit more up to date - posted a couple of days ago.  Polar Bears placed on endangered species etc - polar ice melting much faster than models predict etc. 

 Polar Bears On Thin Ice (CBS News)

2. GW Swindle etc.  There are several threads already on this one - basically the Great Global Warming Swindle is itself a swindle.

and I could probably find a youtube of your featured Professor Ball proclaiming that smoking wasn't dangerous as well.  

The latest NewScientist explains that temperature and CO2 are mutually dependent. 

3.  Moore: Your link mentions that his doco is "fiction" - heck that's not even original,  - since the word "fiction" is used several times in Moore's acceptance speech at the Oscars for best Documentary. 



> http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html  Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" won the Oscar for best documentary. Unfortunately, it is not a documentary, by the Academy's own definition
> 
> The injustice here is not so much to the viewer, as to the independent producers of real documentaries. These struggle in a field which receives but a fraction of the recognition and financing of the "entertainment industry." They are protected by Academy rules limiting the documentary competition to nonfiction.
> 
> *Bowling is fiction*. It makes its points by deceiving and by misleading the viewer. Statements are made which are false,   etc



.

Meanwhile here is Moore accepting that Oscar...

 Michael Moore Wins The Oscar For Bowling For Columbine



> Moore : "We like non fiction, and we live in fictitious times
> we live in the time when we have fictitious election results
> that elect a fictitious President
> we live in a time where we have a man sending us to war
> ...




PS For mine Fahrenheit 9/11 should be compulsory viewing for kids.


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## stockGURU (17 May 2008)

2020, I'm completely uninterested in your opinion of the propaganda, I'm just pointing it out. I thought that's what this thread was about - pointing out propaganda in the media?

With that in mind I have a few comments:

1. The first video is not just about the authenticity of a photo. It is about how global warming zealots will lie and misrepresent the facts to try and convince others of the "truth" of their dogma. That is what propaganda is: presenting a particular point of view at the expense of other points of view, or misrepresenting the facts to push a particular point of view. Global warming zealots are gulity of this and this is one example. The photo is not evidence of global warming. It never was. It is a photo of a ploar bear on some ice in the Canadian summer. The polar bear was not stranded, it wasn't in danger and it wasn't far from land, and yet that it how the global warming zealots spun it for their own ends. In other words, it was used as propaganda.

2. The second video is another example of global warming zealots misrepresenting the scientific evidence to push their dogma. It demonstrates quite clearly that the topic of global warming has long ceased to be a scientific debate and has degenerated into a political debate on both sides of the fence.

3. I'm glad that you agree that Moore's film is both propaganda and fiction. That was my point. My understanding is that was the point of this thread.


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## Garpal Gumnut (17 May 2008)

Propoganda often includes a deliberate lie, but the picture is so arresting that an immediate impact is made.

A picture of Jane Fonda's bus on her last bus tour of the US.

This could be an example of right wing propoganda, but I'm a libertarian just off to the right of the Dalai Lama god bless his soul, so its ok to post it.

From this site 

http://www.freakingnews.com/Jane-Fonda-Pictures---719.asp

gg


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

stockGURU said:


> 2020, I'm completely uninterested in your opinion of the propaganda, I'm just pointing it out. I thought that's what this thread was about - pointing out propaganda in the media?
> 
> With that in mind I have a few comments:
> 
> ...



sg
well you're right, there's no way we can resolve all these topics on one thread ....but 

1. I'll agree that that photo might have been used out of context - whether or not the accompanying documentary was correct - as long as you agree that the polar bear is threatened.

2. GW - we ain;t gonna solve here.  You claim GW is the work of con-artists. I claim that Ball and co are con-artists.  The video is full of errors imo (too big a topic to handle here, and largely already covered elsewhere - not sure with any agreement however lol).  (Gore and) IPCC won a Nobel Peace Prize let's not forget.

3. hey - pretty cheap attempt to misquote me there.  I didn't agree that Moore's article was propaganda or fiction. I simply said the critic you quoted apparently copied Moore's use of the word fiction (since he used it in his victory speech).  Personally I haven't seen Moore's doco.   Just that I really liked Fahrenheit 9/11, and I'm presuming that BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE was similar (at least as far as Bush's winning the presidency in dubious circumstances).  

Certainly electoral hassles in the allegedly democratic USA have a habit of getting pretty "messy round the edges" -  people disenfranchised, mistakes by mechanical voting machines etc. 2000 and 2004 everything seemed to go Bush's way incidentally. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jan/12/uselections2000.usa
http://mediamatters.org/items/200411220005
http://www.ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm



> THE MACHINES
> 
> There are five voting systems used in Florida's 67 counties:
> punch cards (24 counties),
> ...



PS hopefully they'll sort out these voting machines before Novemnber 2008


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## Superfly (17 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> At the time I guess she believed what she was doing
> - she just happened to be ahead of her time, since these days everyone has come to better understand the Vietnam situation.




Ahead of her time !! .. disgraceful



>             Never Forget! Hanoi Hanna--Jane Fonda!
>
>
>                HONORING A TRAITOR
>
>             This is for all the kids born in the 70's that do not remember
>             this, and didn't have to bear the burden, that our fathers,
>             mothers, and older brothers and sisters had to bear. Jane
Fonda
>             is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century."
>             Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others
>             have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of
>             our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during
>             Vietnam.
>
>             The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name
>             is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat.  In 1968, the former
Commandant
>             of the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the
>             "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell,
>             cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was ordered to
>             describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient
>             and humane treatment" he'd received.  He spat at Ms. Fonda,was
>             clubbed, and dragged away.
>
>             During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp
>             Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78,the
>             AF Col. still suffered from double vision (which permanently
>             ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied
>             application of a wooden baton. From 1963-65, Col. Larry
>             Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's).  He spent 6 years in the
>             "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action".
>             His wife lived on faith that he was still alive.  His group,
>             too, got the cleaned, fed, clothed routine in preparation for
a
>             "peace delegation" visit.
>
>             They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the
>             world that they still survived.  Each man secreted a tiny
piece
>             of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand.  When
>             paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line,
>             shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets
>             like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you
>             grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent
>             captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed
her
>             their sliver of paper.
>
>             She took them all without missing a beat.  At the end of the
>             line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked
>             disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and
>             handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the
>             subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four but
>             he survived, which is the only reason we know about her
actions
>             that day.
>
>             I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and
>             was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South
>             Vietnam in 1968, and held for over 5 years.  I spent 27 months
>             in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and
>             one year in a "black box" in Hanoi.  My North Vietnamese
>             captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female
missionary,
>             a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom
I
>             buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border.
>
>             At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs.  (My normal
>             weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."
>
>             When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp
communist
>             political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane
>             Fonda.  I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the
real
>             treatment we POWs received different from the treatment
>             purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda,
>             as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days
on
>             a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large
>             amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo
>             cane till my arms dipped.
>
>             I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of
>             hours after I was released.  I asked her if she would be
>             willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me.
>
>             This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part
>             of "100 Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of
>             great women" should never include a traitor whose hands are
>             covered with the blood of so many patriots.  There are few
>             things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's
>             participation in blatant treason, is one of them.
>
>             Please take the time to forward to as many people as you
>             possibly can. It will eventually end up on her computer and
she
>             needs to know that we will never forget.
>


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## stockGURU (17 May 2008)

2020, you seem to be missing the point again.

This thread is not about who's propaganda is right... is it? That is an unwinnable argument. You will never convince the left that they are wrong and you will never convince the right that they are wrong. My understanding was that this thread was to point out propaganda in the media. Propaganda is used heavily and consistently on BOTH sides of the political spectrum.

What I posted above was examples of how the left use propaganda for their own ends. I don't see how you can deny that global warming zealots used an innocent photo as propaganda when that video systematically dismantles their tactics and agenda. Did you even watch it? Whether or not polar bears are threatened is irrelevent in the context of this thread, which is about propaganda. My point was that the left are just as happy to manipulate the facts for their own ends as the right is. What they did with that photo is evidence of that.

I sincerely hope that you are not taking the line of: "The other side uses propaganda, my side uses the facts and the truth!"

That takes me back to high school as an idealistic teenager but in reality bears no resemblance to the real world.


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Propoganda often includes a deliberate lie, but the picture is so arresting that an immediate impact is made.
> 
> A picture of Jane Fonda's bus on her last bus tour of the US.
> 
> ...



well I sure as hell agree that a graveyard is no place for a demonstration - or a bus for that matter . 

and the blokes who came back from Vietnam were treated abominably. By everyone - in cluding the Govt . 
(Normie Rowe complaining on the news last Thusday that he couldn't make Vet Affairs understand he was emotionally damaged by the experience. - as I posted on the "Tunes" thread at the time )


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## Superfly (17 May 2008)

Jane Fonda... "ahead of her time".... 

Does your statement mean that you support what Jane Fonda did 20/20..????


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

stockGURU said:


> I sincerely hope that you are not taking the line of: "The other side uses propaganda, my side uses the facts and the truth!".



No I'm using the line that,  on a technicality you are correct, that one piece of evidence can be shown to be wrongly used or whatever - different season whatever -  

but a judge would continue to hear the case ( imo) that the polar bear was threatened, thassall. 

I think the alleged propaganda in this example is inconsequential, and/or trivial, and doesn't change the arguement at all. 

Did I watch it? - the youtube? yes.  Do I recall Monica Attard saying it at the time? yes. 
PS I wonder if she still holds that opinion?


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## stockGURU (17 May 2008)

I give up.

2020 I finally understand why so many people on this forum find debating with you to be like debating with a brick wall, only more irritating. You are so entrenched in your leftist dogma you have blinkers on the size of an 18 wheelers mudflaps.

You take threads off topic and you consistently miss the point.

After me clearly saying that the point of this thread is not about arguing about whose propaganda is right, that is all you do. You not only excuse leftist propaganda but you try and deny it outright.

This thread is not about the polar bear or Michael Moore it is about *PROPAGANDA*.. and yes, the left use it just as much as the right. The fact you wont admit that speaks volumes about your one eyed view of the world.

I'm outta here.


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## Superfly (17 May 2008)

20/20...

Do you or do you not support the actions of Jane Fonda during the Vietnam war ???????

There maybe some arguement about what Fonda did in Vietnam... but what is clear just what a traitorous person she is....

Do you support her actions ??


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> 20/20...
> 
> Do you or do you not support the actions of Jane Fonda during the Vietnam war ???????
> 
> ...




No way is collaboration with the enemy justified.  
Then again I guess the 32 propaganda tapes that McCain made for the Vietnam Govt (whilst a POW) would have to be the classic point in question on that score. 
(according to this youtube, - already posted on the McCain thread)

ahh , McCain you've done it again - 32 times



then again , maybe his life was threatened - shouldn't be too tough on him I guess.
PS try getting him to admit it


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

Here's a transcript of that youtube
For gg's benefit since he can't listen to youtubes apparently..
Note the direct comparison with Jane Fonda at the halfway mark. ..



> *Dr Joseph Douglas Jr *– Author “Betrayed - Americas Missing POWs”
> Senator McCain seemed to be one of the people that was an obstructionist
> who was not interested in the truth coming out
> who tried to attack people rather than learn what they had to say
> ...




There's that direct comparison between McCain and Jane Fonda 



> *Where are those transcriptions -  believe me they are in the archives of the museum
> the bragging military museum in Hanoi
> and McCain could not have wanted one of those to turn up in the middle of a presidential race
> he knows that , I know that, a few other people know that
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (17 May 2008)

So my question to you superfly - and gg I guess...
 do you or do you not support the actions of McCain in making those 32 propaganda tapes ?



> *Dr James Lucier Former US Senate Chief of Staff*
> What we do know is that when he was there he cooperated with the communist news services in giving interviews that were not flattering to the United States






> *Tracey Usry **fmr Chief Investigator , US Senate Minority Staff*
> Information shows that he made over 32 tapes of propaganda for the Vietnamese Govt
> Certainly you do what you need to do to stay alive
> No body would fault anybody for that
> but there comes a point in time where enough is enough


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## Garpal Gumnut (17 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> So my question to you superfly - and gg I guess...
> do you or do you not support the actions of McCain in making those 32 propaganda tapes ?




I'd prefer not to comment any further rather than to say that he was a POW and she was the spoiled daughter of Hollywood royalty. 

We all make our own choices in life, he made his and she hers.

gg


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## 2020hindsight (18 May 2008)

Back to that definition..
1. probably ignore Ayn Rand's definition - i.e. that only the Communists use propaganda etc - since the days of the McCarthy era , I'd say it's pretty universal 

2, in fact it's getting pretty hard to hear many pollies (most pollies) say anything that isn't tainted with spin and propaganda (imo)
- moving on

3.  dictionary :-  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda
propaganda 
"*Official government communications to the public that are designed to influence opinion. The information may be true or false, but it is always carefully selected for its political effect*"

4. I guess I was assuming that propaganda had to be deceitful - if not by error then by omission.
(as they say , it's a lie to say that a lie by omission is not a lie)

5. by incorrect emphasis
but then it merges into 
spin, etc

6.  careful crafting of words
- to the extent that the words can only be said one way  - and when the politician (or company director or whoever) is further questioned, they stick to that single turn of phrase because their truth is built on sand. 

7. quick poem might explain what I'm thinking
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=294358&highlight=omission#post294358


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## Pronto (18 May 2008)

> At the time I guess she believed what she was doing
> - she just happened to be ahead of her time, since these days everyone has come to better understand the Vietnam situation.




Who is 'everyone', other than ageing lefties who couldn't then and even now have never understood Vietnam? Fonda was a shallow exhibitionist who would have been hanged for her criminal stupidity in another time (as William Joyce AKA 'Lord Haw Haw' was after WWII).  



> The "Domino theory" (which we all believed at the time - indoctrinated as we were) was completely false obviously.




This is the conventional wisdom which is, as usual, wrong. Ask the flourishing nations of Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Phillipines, Indonesia et al if the Domino Theory was 'wrong'. It was the US and allied engagement in Vietnam which allowed their fledgling market economies to develop without the expected Red stab in the back. How ironic that Vietnam is now moving the same way, but 40 years later.


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## 2020hindsight (18 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> Who is 'everyone', other than ageing lefties who couldn't then and even now have never understood Vietnam? Fonda was a shallow exhibitionist who would have been hanged for her criminal stupidity in another time (as William Joyce AKA 'Lord Haw Haw' was after WWII).
> 
> This is the conventional wisdom which is, as usual, wrong. Ask the flourishing nations of Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Phillipines, Indonesia et al if the Domino Theory was 'wrong'. It was the US and allied engagement in Vietnam which allowed their fledgling market economies to develop without the expected Red stab in the back. How ironic that Vietnam is now moving the same way, but 40 years later.



Pronto, You think only "oldies" think we've changed our thoughts about Vietnam?
Assuming you weren't there , I'm guessing you're guessing. 

Guess I have to ask you too Pronto (along with Superfly) - what do you think of McCain doing a stack (32+) of propoganda tapes for the Communist Vietnamese Govt. (?)


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## 2020hindsight (18 May 2008)

Changing tack somewhat ...

"Burnt By the Sun" - brilliant movie imo, - how they got away with it  ??
Maybe it qualifies as propaganda, I'd say not -  but it gets a massive amount of messages across ( imo)

a) it's full of brilliant imagery / allegory, serious villainy, Stalin out of control etc. 

b) some half-humourous old man driving all over Russia lost and confused - representing the people

c) hot air balloons lifting massive pictures of Stalin into the Russian countryside

d) it is delightfully critical of Stalin's Russia - yet it was made in Russia.  
Best Foreign Film 1994 (Academy Awards) etc. 



> A retired colonel decorated for his efforts during the Bolshevik revolution enjoys his life in the country with his young wife and dazzling little daughter until their idyllic peace is rippled by the arrival of a man from their past who, unknown to them, is an agent for the Secret Police. Nikita Mikhalkov's powerful portrait of viciousness during the Stalin era won the 1994 Academy Award for Best Foreign Film.




Nikita Mikalkov produces – also plays the part of the Colonel – his daughter is his daughter in real life – top scenes together 



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Mikhalkov
> Mikhalkov's most famous production to date, Burnt by the Sun (1994), was steeped in the nervous atmosphere of Stalinist purges. The film received the Grand Prize at Cannes and the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film, among many other honours. As of 2000, Burnt by the Sun was the top grossing movie to come out of Eastern Europe. Filming for a sequel is under way.



http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/burntbysun/misc/interview.html


> AN INTERVIEW WITH
> NIKITA MIKHALKOV
> Your film takes place over the course of one summer day in 1936. Why did you choose this period of time?
> 
> ...



 Nikita & Nadia Mihalkov - father and daughter - a happy Russia

 the ugly side of Stalinist Russia, after the the colonel says goodbye to his daughter and is "escorted" away by the secret police.

 a recent pisstake featuring Putin


----------



## Pronto (18 May 2008)

Hindsight 20/20 said:


> Pronto, You think only "oldies" think we've changed our thoughts about Vietnam?
> Assuming you weren't there , I'm guessing you're guessing.
> 
> Guess I have to ask you too Pronto (along with Superfly) - what do you think of McCain doing a stack (32+) of propoganda tapes for the Communist Vietnamese Govt. (?)




Well, you guessed wrongly. I was there and more than once in different capacities.

In the matter of McCain, you omitted the word 'alleged'. If it is true (and I have no way of knowing) I would set it within the known context. 

McCain was singled out for 'special attention' because of his father's position. The severity of his beatings has left his arms permanently damaged. 

I suggest, dear 20/20, that we both might have to experience something like that personally, before either of us passed judgement on another man's breaking point. 

Meanwhile, the unlovely Jane Fonda (who, incidentally - but on the public record - had ribs removed to maintain her bulimia-acquired figure) was there voluntarily and (unfortunately) was never tortured.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 May 2008)

Less quotes and more discussion would make this thread more interesting imo for an impoverished gumnut on a slow connection.

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> Hindsight 20/20 said:
> 
> 
> Well, you guessed wrongly. I was there and more than once in different capacities.
> ...




Couldn't agree more 

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> 1. Ahead of her time !! .. disgraceful
> 
> 2.             They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the
> >             world that they still survived.  Each man secreted a tiny piece
> ...



1. hey I'm not an apologist for Jane Fonda (nor an expert on her activities)
I just say that in the capacity that she believed we shouldn't be in Vietnam - she was ahead of her time.
I've already stated categorically that I don't condone collaboration with the enemy.


2. but I guess she's as good an example of "propaganda" as any.  So let's push on with the exercise (i.e. as an example) 

For instance the quote above is apparently distriuted by emails etc ...

Wikipedia has this to say ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Fonda



> During this visit she also visited American prisoners of war (POWs), and brought back messages from them to their families. ......
> 
> *The POW camp visits also led to persistent stories—decades later circulated widely on the Internet and via email—that the POWs she met had spat on her, or attempted to sneak notes to her which she had then reported to the North Vietnamese, leading to further abuse. However, a study by Snopes.com, which interviewed many of the alleged victims, found these allegations to be false .*[16]




Maybe that email whatever is incorrect?

I also notice she helped Vietnam Veterans (albeit in 1970) 



> In April 1970, Fred Gardner, Fonda and Donald Sutherland formed the FTA tour ("Free The Army", a play on the troop expression "F**k The Army"), an anti-war road show designed as an answer to Bob Hope's USO tour. The tour, referred to as "political vaudeville" by Fonda, visited military towns along the West Coast, with the goal of establishing a dialogue with soldiers about their upcoming deployments to Vietnam. The dialogue was made into a movie (F.T.A.) that contained strong, frank criticism of the war by service men and women. It was released in 1972.[11]
> 
> In the same year, Fonda spoke out against the war at a rally organized by Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. *She offered to help raise funds for VVAW, and, for her efforts, was rewarded with the title of Honorary National Coordinator*.[12] On November 3, 1970, Fonda started a tour of college campuses on which she raised funds for the organization. As noted by the New York Times, Fonda was a "major patron" of the VVAW.




on the subject of her prior support for Huey Newton and the Black Panthers, she said :-


> In a 1979 appearance at the National Press Club in Washington, DC, she was asked about her past praise for Newton and won laughter and applause for her response: "I've said a lot of off-the-wall things in my life. All I can say about that is I was naive and utterly wrong."




Likewise she apparently expressed concern that her trip was manipulated - and also of regret (even sounds like she's disowned that photograph ) ....



> In Vietnam, Fonda was photographed seated on an anti-aircraft battery used against American aircrews.[14] She also participated in several radio broadcasts on behalf of the Communist regime, asking US aircrews to consider the consequences of their actions. In her 2005 autobiography, she states that she was manipulated into sitting on the battery, and claims to have been immediately horrified at the implications of the pictures. Fonda says that it was not what was in her heart at all, and wasn't the reason why she was even there. She was there to film evidence of the Nixon Administration's plan to blow up the dikes (a plan that Fonda says "Johnson, to his credit decided not to do"), and the lie the administration had been giving to the public, that troop returns were imminent. *She expressed regret for her actions many times over the years, but some Americans remain hostile to her. "I've learned that a picture does not capture what was actually in your heart*."






			
				Pronto said:
			
		

> 3. Well, you guessed wrongly. I was there and more than once in different capacities.
> 
> 4. In the matter of McCain, you omitted the word 'alleged'. If it is true (and I have no way of knowing) I would set it within the known context.




3. Fair enough , you were there, I stand corrected on that.  And you still say we haven't changed our opinion of North Vietnam's expansion plans etc?

Personally, during Vietnam days I was too busy learning the Army's arguments of why we were there - both for my own intersts and how to explain it to other soldiers.  Have the ideas that were being bandied around then changed today? Personally I'd say emphatic yes.  But no biggie.  I suggest we can agree to disagree (rather than have what appears to be a pointless argument). 

4. If I omitted the word alleged, it's because that youtube also omitted the word alleged.  I was quoting from it -  in the words of ...

a) Dr James Lucier Former US Senate Chief of Staff
and
b) Tracey Usry fmr Chief Investigator , US Senate Minority Staff  

... the people who also accuse him of singlehandedly covering up the facts of what really happened over there, and preventing release of knowledge about other patriotic americans POW / MIA etc who were not lucky enough to return.

PS and incidentally, "alleging" that this denial to others - other widows etc - was all about his self interest...



> Rep, Bob Dornan
> He made those transcriptions, and in those transcriptions
> I heard a POW who heard them coming into his cell and said
> OMG is that Admiral McCain’s son !? is that the Admiral’s son? Is that Johnny?
> ...




There's that direct comparison between McCain and Jane Fonda 
continuing ...



> Where are those transcriptions - believe me they are in the archives of the museum
> the bragging military museum in Hanoi
> and McCain could not have wanted one of those to turn up in the middle of a presidential race
> *he knows that , I know that, a few other people know that *
> and that’s why he went against Bob Dole’s legislation


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> Jane Fonda (who, incidentally - but on the public record - had ribs removed to maintain her bulimia-acquired figure) ....




http://www.snopes.com/horrors/vanities/ribs.asp

Pronto ... As for the rib removal, snopes.com would suggest that its false.  It's my guess that much like Superfly's story about Fonda passing over the secret notes to the Vietnamese jailers... that it's all designed to achieve "an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented"  - but I'm only quoting snopes.com  ok  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda


> Propaganda is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience.
> 
> Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, *or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. *The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 May 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

"The 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: 

a) the growth of democracy, 
b) the growth of corporate power, and 
c) the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy."[6][7] 

from this book :-


> Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media is a book by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky, first published in 1988.
> 
> Presenting an analysis its authors call the "propaganda model", the book argues that since mass media news outlets are now run by large corporations, they are under the same competitive pressures as other corporations. According to the book, the pressure to create a stable, profitable business invariably distorts the kinds of news items reported, as well as the manner and emphasis in which they are reported.
> 
> This occurs not as a result of conscious design but simply as a consequence of market selection: *those businesses who happen to favor profits over news quality survive, while those that present a more accurate picture of the world tend to become marginalized*.




Thank God for the ABC


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> http://www.snopes.com/horrors/vanities/ribs.asp
> 
> Pronto ... As for the rib removal, snopes.com would suggest that its false.  It's my guess that much like Superfly's story about Fonda passing over the secret notes to the Vietnamese jailers... that it's all designed to achieve "an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented"  - but I'm only quoting snopes.com  ok
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda




2020 I heard from my barber that she (Hanoi Jane) was waisted and thats good enough for me, it has to be true. 

And that is no propoganda as he has a Barbarella poster.


gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> ... I heard from my barber that she (Hanoi Jane) was waisted and thats good enough for me, it has to be true.



My barber's name is Ali - and he charges like 40 thieves and all. 

PS If you (or your wife lol) want a figure like Jane Fonda - sorry , there's no option but hard work 

PS according to that snopes.com website, the rumour (against several women with small waists) could possibly have been started by more portly women, possibly jealous, who wish to paint them as...

 "Frankenstein creations , rather than acknowledging that even members of the charmed circle have to do situps and watch what they eat.  Female celebrities turned exercise mavens  - like Cher and Jane Fonda - are especial targets for rumours of this kind because they're seen as committing the unforgivable crime of condescension.  

Not only are they rich famous and good-looking, they're now out to lecture the rest of us!  In those cases, our urge to see the pedestal pulled out from under them runs strong"


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> ... In the matter of McCain, you omitted the word 'alleged'. If it is true (and I have no way of knowing) I would set it within the known context.
> 
> McCain was singled out for 'special attention' because of his father's position. The severity of his beatings has left his arms permanently damaged.
> 
> I suggest, dear 20/20, that we both might have to experience something like that personally, before either of us passed judgement on another man's breaking point. .




PS  I'll definitely concede he went through hell  at the hands of the Vietnamese - but also partly because he broke his arm in three places when he ejected from his plane after being hit by a missile  (as well as his leg broken).

And they withheld medical treatment until he gave "information"  etc

and subsequently made false confessions etc. 

I'm guessing I would have broken well before him. 

Just that, when I returned, I wouldn't have prevented others finding out about their loved ones who were POWs and MIAs etc,  (which is the real mystery - totally unexpainable yes?) or about my treatment either.


----------



## Pronto (19 May 2008)

For 20/20. Thank you for your comments. I give up; you're right and anyone who doesn't agree with your o-so-predictable views is 'wrong'. 

You insist on using every topic as a vehicle for a cut and paste, anti-American polemic, and I for one have had enough. Bye!


----------



## juw177 (19 May 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> For 20/20. Thank you for your comments. I give up; you're right and anyone who doesn't agree with your o-so-predictable views is 'wrong'.




My views predictable?

If you're talking about Jane Fonda having ribs removed, - (and other urban myths) - you are free to continue to believe what you like.  As Cher says, "er - maybe common sense would suggest that if I had a rib removed I would have some scars right?" - (other than boob-job scars) - needless to say she then took great delight in displaying her body etc.  Same reasoning would go for Jane Fonda I guess.   

If you're talking about McCain - hey I started the McCain thread with an open mind - 
then I came upon a few points that I didn't much like, marital infidelity, ordering armaments / ships etc against the president's wishes and behind his back - 

then I came upon that youtube (post#21) which I found bludy weird... POWs MIA etc.



			
				pronto said:
			
		

> You insist on using every topic as a vehicle for a cut and paste, anti-American polemic, and I for one have had enough. Bye!




And if you're talking about post #22 - the transcript of that youtube, - no I didn't cut and paste it, I typed it.  

PS If you're interested in my political views, I 'd probably say that Nick Greiner was the best Premier NSW ever had
and I've voted non-Liberal twice (maybe 3 times) as I recall 

PS my mum - in her nineties - still can't get over why Joh still isn't Qld Premier - the sun shone out him (iho).   btw , the photo is Cher - not my mum .


----------



## Buddy (19 May 2008)

For what it's worth (forgive me for my sexist comment), I dont know if Jane had any ribs taken out but she sure had one amazing body (Barbarella - still fantasize over that movie).  Not so sure about her mind though.

Propaganda is all around us, in the stupid Hollywood movies, in our newpapers, by our politicians (Hansard), Wikipedia (who really knows), maybe even in this forum.  We have to be ever vigilant and probe what people say/write to determine if it is the truth. And even if it is the truth, determine how people manipulate the truth to chronical their own agendas. Trust no one.


----------



## Julia (19 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Less quotes and more discussion would make this thread more interesting imo for an impoverished gumnut on a slow connection.
> 
> gg






Pronto said:


> For 20/20. Thank you for your comments. I give up; you're right and anyone who doesn't agree with your o-so-predictable views is 'wrong'.
> 
> You insist on using every topic as a vehicle for a cut and paste, anti-American polemic, and I for one have had enough. Bye!




2020:  please heed these comments.  The endless quotes are mind numbingly boring.   

As usual what starts out as a thread which promises to be quite interesting descends into the inevitable cut and paste from multiple and dubious sources, all aimed at supporting your own immovable opinions.

  You are not interested in objective discussion, or considering whether an alternative opinion could have merit, but only in continually finding new avenues in which you can waffle on.


----------



## Superfly (20 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> > PS For mine Fahrenheit 9/11 should be compulsory viewing for kids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Superfly (20 May 2008)

Julia said:


> 2020:  please heed these comments.  The endless quotes are mind numbingly boring.
> 
> As usual what starts out as a thread which promises to be quite interesting descends into the inevitable cut and paste from multiple and dubious sources, all aimed at supporting your own immovable opinions.
> 
> You are not interested in objective discussion, or considering whether an alternative opinion could have merit, but only in continually finding new avenues in which you can waffle on.




Agree... 100%...


----------



## Superfly (20 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> Who is 'everyone', other than ageing lefties who couldn't then and even now have never understood Vietnam? Fonda was a shallow exhibitionist who would have been hanged for her criminal stupidity in another time (as William Joyce AKA 'Lord Haw Haw' was after WWII).
> 
> 
> 
> This is the conventional wisdom which is, as usual, wrong. Ask the flourishing nations of Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Phillipines, Indonesia et al if the Domino Theory was 'wrong'. It was the US and allied engagement in Vietnam which allowed their fledgling market economies to develop without the expected Red stab in the back. How ironic that Vietnam is now moving the same way, but 40 years later.




Fantastic post... 

You reading this 20/20...


----------



## Superfly (20 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> Hindsight 20/20 said:
> 
> 
> Well, you guessed wrongly. I was there and more than once in different capacities.
> ...




Could not agree more...


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 May 2008)

Julia said:


> 2020:  please heed these comments.  The endless quotes are mind numbingly boring.
> 
> As usual what starts out as a thread which promises to be quite interesting descends into the inevitable cut and paste from multiple and dubious sources, all aimed at supporting your own immovable opinions.
> 
> You are not interested in objective discussion, or considering whether an alternative opinion could have merit, but only in continually finding new avenues in which you can waffle on.



Julia
ok I concede the review of 
a) Ayn Rand's opinion of Song of Russia (around the McCarthy investigations)
and
b) Burnt by the Sun
are longwinded. 
I really liked that movie Burnt By the Sun btw - anyone else see it?  Russians crticising Russia.

But Julia try to read post #22, - I put it there for people like gg and yourself, because I seem to recall you saying you don;t or can't watch youtubes.   Obviously the youtube in post #21 is better still.   - 

anti American ? - no - it's Americans (and Republicans at that) being extremely critical of McCain, and some contrary versions of "history" and support for felloe POW MIAs.


----------



## Julia (20 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> But Julia try to read post #22



No thank you.


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 May 2008)

Julia said:


> No thank you.



so Julia
can you watch youtubes or can't you?
and next question...
is there any point in my spending an hour or two typing the transcript of a youtube?...
that you can't (thank you) be bothered reading ...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> so Julia
> can you watch youtubes or can't you?
> and next question...
> is there any point in my spending an hour or two typing the transcript of a youtube?...
> that you can't (thank you) be bothered reading ...




I think what Julia is trying to say is that your opinions and comments are more interesting than a screed of quotes or utube links. Discussions rather than padding, the former gets drowned by the latter.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 May 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I think what Julia is trying to say is that your opinions and comments are more interesting than a screed of quotes or utube links. Discussions rather than padding, the former gets drowned by the latter.
> 
> gg




gg, you (and Julia) are just gonna have to get broadband and listen to youtubes like that -  Republicans calling McCain a very questionable moral character - then you'll understand that all this typing around the periphery of the argument is indeed "padding"

PS If I spend an hour typing the transcript of a youtube for your benefit gg - I don't really think you are legitimately entitled to criticise my efforts


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 May 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> gg, you (and Julia) are just gonna have to get broadband and listen to youtubes like that -  Republicans calling McCain a very questionable moral character - then you'll understand that all this typing around the periphery of the argument is indeed "padding"
> 
> PS If I spend an hour typing the transcript of a youtube for your benefit gg - I don't really think you are legitimately entitled to criticise my efforts




I prefer your thoughts to all that stuff on utube, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you, but can see how I have.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 May 2008)

gg - ahh - it probably kept me away from the beer fridge for an hour at least ...

given that the USA presidential campaign is a USD$1 mill per day exercise (per candidate) - I guess we - and any internet discussion - are all pawns in the (US electoral) process...

and if that isn't another name for "propaganda" I don't know what is 

PS may we never go the way of the US electoral system .


----------



## Julia (22 May 2008)

2020, I have broadband.
I am simply not interested in watching endless videos which are usually extraneous to the discussion, and inevitably posted to mirror your own very unilateral view.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 May 2008)

2020 The left and the right have their own propoganda and machines. Keep on picking away at them. The utubers and conventional media are often appartchik plants, there to feed the still free with their luke warm porridge. a bit like tip sheets and brokers with stocks. Rage, rage, 2020. Good on you.

gg


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 May 2008)

Julia said:


> 2020, I have broadband.
> I am simply not interested in watching endless videos which are usually extraneous to the discussion, and inevitably posted to mirror your own very unilateral view.




well Julia 
if you haven't watched the youtube and you haven't read the transcripts...
I guess you wouldn't really know what that particular topic was about would you ? ...


----------



## Superfly (26 May 2008)

Pronto said:


> Who is 'everyone', other than ageing lefties who couldn't then and even now have never understood Vietnam? Fonda was a shallow exhibitionist who would have been hanged for her criminal stupidity in another time (as William Joyce AKA 'Lord Haw Haw' was after WWII).
> 
> 
> 
> This is the conventional wisdom which is, as usual, wrong. Ask the flourishing nations of Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Phillipines, Indonesia et al if the Domino Theory was 'wrong'. It was the US and allied engagement in Vietnam which allowed their fledgling market economies to develop without the expected Red stab in the back. How ironic that Vietnam is now moving the same way, but 40 years later.




If you want to ask people questions 20/20.. then on the last paragraph of this very correct post is this the "better understanding of the Vietnam situation" you talk about..? no u-tubes please...please !!


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 May 2008)

Superfly said:


> If you want to ask people questions 20/20.. then on the last paragraph of this very correct post is this the "better understanding of the Vietnam situation" you talk about..? no u-tubes please...please !!



ok 
a) we were told that unless we won the war in Vietnam there would be a domino to the next country and the next and so on. 
b) we lost the war in vietnam
c) there was no domino follow on
d) the logic of the domino theory was incorrect.

PS we now go to Hanoi and/or Ho Chi Min City as businessmen and tourists, instead of soldiers - and that's after we lost the war - if you'd told someone that back in the 60's and early 70's they'd have said "impossible".


----------



## robert toms (26 May 2008)

Can anyone remember newsreels before the films at the cinemas?
One of the abiding themes was the fate of Russian women.They had children only to surrender them to state-run creches so that they could keep on working.How shocking this was to Australians.
One generations propaganda becomes anothers reality!


----------



## Superfly (5 July 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ok
> a) we were told that unless we won the war in Vietnam there would be a domino to the next country and the next and so on.
> b) we lost the war in vietnam
> c) there was no domino follow on
> ...





Businessmen in Hanoi, so the communists come crawling to the west again...Goes to show that the left is wrong, socialism doesnt work...anyway,
can't you read .. due the 12 year US involvement in Vietnam, it allowed the other SE Asian economies the grow strong and develop before any communist movement could gain a foot hold like what happened in poor area's of China ( no one wanted to know Mao in Shanghai etc, he had to go out and recruit peasants).. and the Vietnamise who used the "look at the French they take our land" to the peasants... but read the previous quoted post again, it says it better and maybe ( probably not ever ) you may start to get it. 

We didn't lose the war in Vietnam, that is an insult to all who fought there, the US WITHDREW. Everytime the NVA crossed into South Vietnam they where beaten and what was left retreated back into Laos or over DMZ. That is just left propaganda to say that the US lost in Vietnam.

A big reason why the left wants the US out of Iraq, so that they can say it's another defeat for the US military... rah rah rah ...  lost in Vietnam, lost in Iraq etc etc etc...

Its hard to win a war with no troops on the ground, which exactly what the left wants in Iraq.


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 July 2008)

Superfly said:


> We didn't lose the war in Vietnam, that is an insult to all who fought there, the US WITHDREW. Everytime the NVA crossed into South Vietnam they where beaten and what was left retreated back into Laos or over DMZ. That is just left propaganda to say that the US lost in Vietnam.



Ok - for your beneft superfly, I'll reword that then ....

a) we were told that if we WITHDREW from Vietnam there would be a domino to the next country and the next and so on. 
b) we withdrew
c) there was no domino follow on
d) the logic of the domino theory was incorrect


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 July 2008)

btw, I could add that it's appropriate that you suggest that we didn't lose in Vietnam - on a thread titled "propaganda"


----------



## Superfly (6 July 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> btw, I could add that it's appropriate that you suggest that we didn't lose in Vietnam - on a thread titled "propaganda"




Not suggesting, am stating that the US did NOT lose the vietnam war, the US withdrew and what your saying 20/20 is an insult. 


Again...A big reason why the left wants the US out of Iraq, so that they can say it's another defeat for the US military... rah rah rah ... lost in Vietnam, lost in Iraq etc etc etc...

Its hard to win a war with no troops on the ground, which is exactly what the left wants in Iraq.


----------



## juw177 (6 July 2008)

Superfly said:


> the US did NOT lose the vietnam war




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive


----------



## Superfly (6 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive




???? The TET offensive was crushed. It was a huge military defeat for the communists...

...but would it did mark due to media coverage was mark the beginning of end of popular support for the war in Vietnam in the US.


----------



## Superfly (6 July 2008)

Your point is ?


----------



## juw177 (6 July 2008)

Look out guys, Superfly is going to take down all our screen names and send it to the CIA so they can keep on silencing dissidents.


----------



## Superfly (6 July 2008)

So what's your point about the TET offensive ?

Any other North Vietnamise military defeats you want to post links to...

If your looking for North Vietnamise victories Juw, try the French defeat at Dien Bein Phu in 1954, which was solely due to the terrible position the French located the Dien Bein Phu base in, not any smart military manoeuvres or fighting by North Vietnamise units.


----------



## juw177 (6 July 2008)

The Tet Offensive was a major defeat for the US occupiers and only the brainwashed will disagree.


----------



## Superfly (7 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> The Tet Offensive was a major defeat for the US occupiers and only the brainwashed will disagree.




Hmmm must be shift change at the Chinese embassy and night shift Juw177 posting now, dayshift Juw177 has knocked off... it must be because even Juw177 could not post something so absolutely wrong...

Ok Juw... "prove it"... the TET offensive is well documented, one google should do it Juw...


----------



## Superfly (7 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> The Tet Offensive was a major defeat for the US occupiers and only the brainwashed will disagree.




Ahhh also Juw177, the US were NOT occupiers... South Vietnam was facing aggression for the communist North and requested US help. South Vietnam was a sovereign nation being aided by the west.


----------



## juw177 (7 July 2008)

Superfly said:


> Ahhh also Juw177, the US were NOT occupiers... South Vietnam was facing aggression for the communist North and requested US help. South Vietnam was a sovereign nation being aided by the west.




You are a classic example of the brainwashed american sheep.

The aggression in Vietnam was provoked by the US so they have an excuse to occupy the country. Tet Offensive was the turning point of the war. Americans got their ass kicked in Vietnam. Casualties don't show who won and lost.


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## wayneL (7 July 2008)

Re Vietnam ==>> The Gulf of Tonkin Incident


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## robert toms (7 July 2008)

As far as I can remember North and South Vietnam were separated along the 17th parallel,in a Geneva convention, after the French were defeated in 1954.A proviso of this separation was that re-unification elections were to be held in 1956.As they were going to lose any elections South Vietnam renigged on the election commitment.
This was the seed of the Civil War in Vietnam.
Did Mugabe learn from Vietnam that is far better to hold a rigged election,than refuse to take part in an election ? hee hee


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## Superfly (7 July 2008)

juw177 said:


> You are a classic example of the brainwashed american sheep.
> 
> The aggression in Vietnam was provoked by the US so they have an excuse to occupy the country. Tet Offensive was the turning point of the war. Americans got their ass kicked in Vietnam. Casualties don't show who won and lost.




This is exactly what the type of left wing crap that will be heard if troops are withdrawn from Iraq, just as the were from Vietnam. 

US got their arses kicked ?... whenever your ready you can start posting something to back that statemnent up...I'm all ears ... 

Oh yeh and China did have their arses kicked by US / Australian forces in North Korea, and kicked well. 

PLR >> good for killing unarmed protestors and Tibetins, not much else...


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## Garpal Gumnut (21 February 2009)

Hanoi Jane opens a new play in New York. My contacts in the US tell me a few Vietnam Vets have bought tickets for the show.

It should be funny.

http://nymag.com/arts/theater/features/54631/

gg


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## rederob (20 May 2022)

What Russian TV presents to their viewers today about the "special operation":


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## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

rederob said:


> What Russian TV presents to their viewers today about the "special operation":



Different subject matter, but it shows that Russia's question time in parliament, is a platform for loony politicians same as ours. 🤣


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## rederob (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Different subject matter, but it shows that Russia's question time in parliament, is a platform for loony politicians same as ours. 🤣



Nope.
I can see why you are confused about the media when you think a Russian daytime TV show is actually the Duma.


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## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

rederob said:


> Nope.
> I can see why you are confused about the media when you think a Russian daytime TV show is actually the Duma.
> View attachment 141920



Maybe I don't watch as much daytime t.v, as obviously some do. 🤣

Or are you suggesting our parliamentary question time, is unlike a daytime t.v show portraying idiotic behaviour? if so I can understand your confusion, as to sensible debate.
The media has just made the line between stupid infantile political behaviour, pantomime and news reporting just that more more difficult to differentiate.


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## rederob (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Or are you suggesting our parliamentary question time, is unlike a daytime t.v show portraying idiotic behaviour?



You can't tell the difference between a parliamentary debate and shock jock drama - despite the link making it clear - so I understand why you pick on the media rather than draw lessons from it. 


sptrawler said:


> The media has just made the line between stupid infantile political behaviour, pantomime and news reporting just that more more difficult to differentiate.



That's wholly dependent on who you draw information from and how good you are at analysis.
CGTN has a Russian journalist embedded with Russian troops in eastern Ukraine.  He actually does a pretty good job of reporting what he shows.  The thing is, he's very selective on what he shows.  More properly, there is a lot he could instead show which tells a very different story.  Propaganda plays on ignorance.


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## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

rederob said:


> That's wholly dependent on who you draw information from and how good you are at analysis.
> CGTN has a Russian journalist embedded with Russian troops in eastern Ukraine.  He actually does a pretty good job of reporting what he shows.  The thing is, he's very selective on what he shows.  More properly, there is a lot he could instead show which tells a very different story.  Propaganda plays on ignorance.



No one can tell the difference between a parliamentary debate and shock jock drama - despite the link making it clear, other than believing the link is an accurate representation. With the media today, especially from half the World away, you only believe it because they are telling you it is true, I'm not so trusting and form my own opinion from all sources, not just sources that feed my own beliefs. 

I actually can't be bothered watching Australian media let alone overseas shows, drawing conclusions on what someone is presenting from a place half the world away, is about as reliable as reading it in the 'Women's Day' IMO.
As you said above, '*he's very selective on what he shows', *tells me that any conclusion drawn is the one he wants to paint, as is the way with all media today.
There are just as many people say the old Fairfax media is biased, as there are that say the Murdoch media is biased, the facts lie somewhere in the middle IMO. 
But try to explain that to a 'true believer' even on this forum.


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## Pokitren (20 May 2022)

2020hindsight said:


> I found this definition of propaganda ....
> And I just wonder if people can recall (even read current examples of ) classic propaganda events / news relases etc.
> 
> I guess the Nazis would have been amongst the first to perfect this stuff.  Since then it has been copied by the Communists - and of course our own politicians (imo).
> ...



I don't claim numbers, because that's history and classified material. However, I completely agree that propaganda is present in the media and movies. They propagandize whatever they need to propagandize. And they do it covertly, veiledly.


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## wayneL (20 May 2022)

rederob said:


> Propaganda plays on ignorance.



Rob suddenly gets objective...

Progress.


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