# Takashi Kotegawa (BNF) - Super Day Trader



## barnz2k (21 May 2008)

Anyone who understands Japanese or interested, there is an article about Japans most famous day trader.

He has a nice, large bachelor pad but its pretty sparse, he eats cup ramen all the time (about the cheapest food in Japan).

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=4644



> This man(29-years-old) is most famous Japanese individual stock day trader named Takashi Kotegawa, his nickname is “B・N・F”. He has increased his own fund from 1.6 million yen($13,600) to 18 billion yen($153 million) for 8 year or so.


----------



## Timmy (21 May 2008)

Thanks barnz!


----------



## Temjin (21 May 2008)

Wow, so he was consistently on average getting 10.2% return per month (and compounded) for over 8 years, or 220% per year. 

However, some of the top performance PUBLIC LISTED managed futures have managed that sort of return for the past 2-3 years. Some of the lengendary traders (who appeared in Market Wizards), but rarely made their performance statistic public, have even exceed that sort of return. 

This is the power of compounding.  Amazingly too, this guy seem to consider day trading as more of a hobby and a challenge than the money itself. Given his current lifestyle that is.


----------



## professor_frink (21 May 2008)

what's cup ramen


----------



## Timmy (21 May 2008)

Temjin said:


> Wow, so he was consistently on average getting 10.2% return per month (and compounded) for over 8 years, or 220% per year.
> 
> However, some of the top performance PUBLIC LISTED managed futures have managed that sort of return for the past 2-3 years. Some of the lengendary traders (who appeared in Market Wizards), but rarely made their performance statistic public, have even exceed that sort of return.
> 
> This is the power of compounding.  Amazingly too, this guy seem to consider day trading as more of a hobby and a challenge than the money itself. Given his current lifestyle that is.




Hi Temjin
I take it from your comments you could understand the video (sorry if thats a breathtakingly stupid question...)?  Can you provide a bit more of a summary/rundown for those such as me who had to make do with the written part of the article only?


----------



## Timmy (21 May 2008)

professor_frink said:


> what's cup ramen




Thats the Japanese Soccer League.

Sorry.... its like instant noodles in those styrofoam cups.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (21 May 2008)

All that money and he eats UNHEALTHY ramen noodles like an ordinary worker does.


----------



## barnz2k (21 May 2008)

I only got bits n pieces of the audio myself. but yeah he seems lead a very modest (or cheap) lifestyle, apart from the apartment itself.

so he started at 21. not a bad effort! taht rich at 29 and he eats cup ramen..

There was a guy last year, forgot his name, who was like 23 and became really rich and famous in japan, drove around in ferrari etc, but it was all through some dodgyness that came undone in the end - totally opposite lifestyle though. I suppose if your not gonna keep your cash very long you may aas well flaunt it!


----------



## Sodapop (21 May 2008)

Not Horie Takafumi? He was the founder of Livedoor a (at the time a huge integrated internet company) that ended up pulling some kind of dodgy associated party share buying that they didn't disclose to the market... one of the upper level execs topped himself - and Horie is doing time... Might be the guy you are thinking of (not 23 tho - 30ish) but he was a massive media sensation here while still clean (and when soiled)...


----------



## Temjin (21 May 2008)

Timmy said:


> Hi Temjin
> I take it from your comments you could understand the video (sorry if thats a breathtakingly stupid question...)?  Can you provide a bit more of a summary/rundown for those such as me who had to make do with the written part of the article only?




Oops, sorry, I think I confused you. No, I don't understand the video at all. haha It is an assumption I made because he "eats" ramen cup noodles and only brought TWO wiis. (instead, he probably had enough money to buy a million of those!) 

So this give me the impression that he is one of the many traders who simply view enjoy day trading as a challenge. People like him tend to be more successful in trading because their motivation was not derived from making money, but rather from his passion and desire to be committed. This is Dr Van Tharp's stuff. 

Ohhh..Cup ramen is unhealthy, but normal ramen is quite healthy depending on how it is cooked. And I LOVE RAMEN NOODLES!! Sorry for the off topic. LOL


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (21 May 2008)

It's all about money. Everything is about money.


----------



## barnz2k (23 May 2008)

Sodapop said:


> Not Horie Takafumi? He was the founder of Livedoor a




thats the one, livedoor is the only bit of info I really remembered haha. yeah all over the news. I take it your currently living in Japan then!

haha ahh ramen, in aus, @ 3am you go for a kebab, in Japan, its ramen (not of the cup variety).


----------



## MRC & Co (23 May 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> It's all about money. Everything is about money.




And I beleive you once called me dogmatic 

Good on Takashi!  

Anybody know which method he uses to make those kind of returns?  Scalper, swing trader?  And which instruments?


----------



## Temjin (23 May 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> And I beleive you once called me dogmatic
> 
> Good on Takashi!
> 
> Anybody know which method he uses to make those kind of returns? Scalper, swing trader? And which instruments?




I can't read or understand Japanese so can only guess as well. 

I doubt the instruments he traded were consistent for the past 8 years. But should definitely involve futures and forex as an absolute minimum.

Since he is making on average 10.2% return per month, assuming he does not take ANYTHING out for 8 years and no tax on his return (true in some countries like Hong Kong), he would only need 0.5% per day. (assuming 20 trading days per month)

So if he is risking 1% per trade, he would only need to achieve 0.5R per day on his system to get that sort of return over 8 years. One example would be that he makes 3 trades per day, 2 trades are a lost at -1R each and the other trade is 2.5R win. Just do that every day for 8 years and you can turn $13,600 to $153 million in 8 years given the assumptions above.  

So I doubt he is playing with scalping at all as it would provide a LOT MORE opportunities than just 3 trades per day.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (23 May 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> And I beleive you once called me dogmatic
> 
> Anybody know which method he uses to make those kind of returns?  Scalper, swing trader?  And which instruments?





Me? Never.

It would be ridiculous to say everthing is not about money. If it were, one wouldn't have to worry about work or even "want to be a super trader like most neophytes".


----------



## MRC & Co (23 May 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Me? Never.
> 
> It would be ridiculous to say everthing is not about money. If it were, one wouldn't have to worry about work or even "want to be a super trader like most neophytes".




So why do most investor/trader, billionaire/millionaires continue once they have made enough to live off for the rest of their families existence?

Appears a paradoxical statement.

I beleive it is for both, the money grants the freedom, but the high of trading (sometimes simply the competition involved) keeps one coming back, time and time again!


----------



## Trembling Hand (23 May 2008)

Temjin said:


> So if he is risking 1% per trade, he would only need to achieve 0.5R per day on his system to get that sort of return over 8 years. One example would be that he makes 3 trades per day, 2 trades are a lost at -1R each and the other trade is 2.5R win. Just do that every day for 8 years and you can turn $13,600 to $153 million in 8 years given the assumptions above.
> 
> So I doubt he is playing with scalping at all as it would provide a LOT MORE opportunities than just 3 trades per day.




I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!

How are you going to swing any more than a couple of mill at a time without huge slippage.


----------



## andy87 (23 May 2008)

id never even thought of the beneifts of compunding till i read this.  I did some calcs to see how much i could potentially earn by the time im 30 (now 21) and this is what i came up with;


     Capital base - $10,000
     Return - 5% (hardly unachievable)
     Trades per year - 365
     no. of years - 9


    TOTAL= $1,363,833.24

now thats an impressive figure by any means considering the start up, which isnt a lot.


----------



## Trembling Hand (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> id never even thought of the beneifts of compunding till i read this.  I did some calcs to see how much i could potentially earn by the time im 30 (now 21) and this is what i came up with;
> 
> 
> Capital base - $10,000
> ...




That's not compounding thats fantasy


----------



## RobinHood (23 May 2008)

> On December 8, 2005 an order from Mizuho Securities meant to sell 1 share of J-Com Co for 610,000 yen was mistakenly entered as a sale of 610,000 shares at 1 yen, resulting in an estimate loss of $347 million. Following the incident, though a considerable number of firms who had profitted from the order misplacement agreed to hand back their earnings (41.38%), a good number of individual traders refused to do so, as they were not obliged under Japanese law. Such was the case of B.N.F, who managed to amass, in a period of just ten minutes, a figure of 2 billion yen (apr. US$20 million).
> 
> Following the incident, the J-Com man was interviewed several times, eventually agreeing to show himself in person on March 28, 2006 on the Japanese television show 'The Dawn of Gaia'.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.N.F_(J-Com_man)

I'm sure this helped.


----------



## andy87 (23 May 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> That's not compounding thats fantasy




thats compounding.  Used some formula thingo on the net.  Unless i put in the wrong variables.  Plus this guy made $183 million from $16,000 in 8 years and if maths is right thats a frigen ridiculous amount of trading with very very high returns....unless its fantasy


----------



## RobinHood (23 May 2008)

Well if you make $20 million in 10 minutes from a market anomaly then its completely different.


----------



## professor_frink (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> id never even thought of the beneifts of compunding till i read this.  I did some calcs to see how much i could potentially earn by the time im 30 (now 21) and this is what i came up with;
> 
> 
> Capital base - $10,000
> ...




Interesting the different ways people will  view your stats. The impressive part for me is averaging a 5% return per trade, trade hundreds of times per year, and compound it into infinity.

The number at the end is rather pointless unless you can figure out how to do the things before it


----------



## andy87 (23 May 2008)

professor_frink said:


> Interesting the different ways people will  view your stats. The impressive part for me is averaging a 5% return per trade, trade hundreds of times per year, and compound it into infinity.
> 
> The number at the end is rather pointless unless you can figure out how to do the things before it




yeh i know, but its still fun to let your mind wonder


----------



## prawn_86 (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> yeh i know, but its still fun to let your mind wonder




Returning 5% per day would require something spectacular IMO.

And remember that is based on full position sizing etc etc, so its not really realistic, but does still show the power of compounding


----------



## Trembling Hand (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> thats compounding.  Used some formula thingo on the net.  Unless i put in the wrong variables.  Plus this guy made $183 million from $16,000 in 8 years and if maths is right thats a frigen ridiculous amount of trading with very very high returns....unless its fantasy




No I'm talking about the ability to make 5% per trade on $10,000 compared to $50 mil. You obviously need to trade a completely different way. And therefore a simple compounding equation isn't going to cut it. I'm certainly not dismissing the ability to do it. I try it every day


----------



## andy87 (23 May 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Returning 5% per day would require something spectacular IMO.
> 
> And remember that is based on full position sizing etc etc, so its not really realistic, but does still show the power of compounding




5% a day isnt realistic?  Well that puts my newbiness into perspective.  Thanks prawn_86 .  What is realistic then?


----------



## Trembling Hand (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> 5% a day isnt realistic?  Well that puts my newbiness into perspective.  Thanks prawn_86 .  What is realistic then?




The question should be what percentage of return is possible on Capitial not per trade. You could get a 10% if you use return on margin but if that is also 10% on capital you are going to blow up. Thats my point about simple compounding being fantasy.


----------



## andy87 (23 May 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> The question should be what percentage of return is possible on Capitial not per trade. You could get a 10% if you use return on margin but if that is also 10% on capital you are going to blow up. Thats my point about simple compounding being fantasy.




i thought the 10% on capital and per trade would go hand in hand. I wouldnt have thought it mattered considering your using 100% of your capital in every trade. No doubt im wrong about that

Furthermore, i dont know what japan's brokerage and all other fees are but Takashi must have been getting more than a 1% return/day, because after all taxes and fees you would have ended up worse off and if you repeat it your going to have nothing


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> What is realistic then?




One thing that is realistic is ..... a profit from every trade is not possible!!

There are Olympic athletes and there are around the block joggers (me  ).As T.H. says ... the more you practice the better you could get.


----------



## professor_frink (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> 5% a day isnt realistic?  Well that puts my newbiness into perspective.  Thanks prawn_86 .  What is realistic then?




IMO you should be looking at your return relative to what % of your account you are risking on the trade.

Assuming that you are risking 1% per trade, a 50:50 win loss ratio and an average win twice your average loss, you are going to have to make at least 5 trades a day on average(or something along those lines) to get the 5% per day you are talking about.


----------



## andy87 (23 May 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> One thing that is realistic is ..... a profit from every trade is not possible!!
> 
> There are Olympic athletes and there are around the block joggers (me  ).As T.H. says ... the more you practice the better you could get.





lol thats a great anology.  And one thing thats carved into my mindset....nothing is impossible, simply not probabile.


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 May 2008)

andy87 said:


> lol thats a great anology.  And one thing thats carved into my mindset....*nothing is impossible, simply not probable*.





I like that reality too.





.


----------



## 9Dragons (11 June 2008)

my aim is to make 10% of his worth.


----------



## nekminit (13 October 2014)

Whatever happened to this guy, anyone know if he still trades? Super talented to say the least.


----------



## skyQuake (14 October 2014)

nekminit said:


> Whatever happened to this guy, anyone know if he still trades? Super talented to say the least.




Recent article about another super japanese day trader mentions him, but its unsure if he still trades.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ng-japan-made-more-than-1-million-trades.html


----------

