# World's best trader... NOT!



## burglar (7 October 2012)

I was having a line of thought (Yes. It hurt) and put it in a post!
Then a response prompted me to post some more.

Before I knew it, I was in too deep!



prawn_86 said:


> Would love to see some broker statements of this, even with the tickers blanked out. If you are doing this consistently without losers then it would make you one of the best traders going




First of all, sorry wilto, for derailling your thread!
Secondly, sorry to any ASF'ers who got the same impression as prawn_86

I am actually the worst trader here. 

Deep in the red, having made big mistakes in the past.

I am trying to trade out trouble! 
I am not "doing this consistently".
Nor am I doing this "without losers".

burglar


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## CanOz (7 October 2012)

*Re: worlds best trader NOT*

We've all been the worst traders here Burg's. 

In 2006 i made over 20k in the mining bull, lost it all with CFDs shortly after...

Joined "The Chartist" in 2007 ish and made allot back, but struggled with work and trading.

Made 13k in 2008 shorting the crash....gave it all back thinking it would continue to get worse...

Quit work in 2011 and invested 12 months of my life trying to trade intra-day, systematically (-10k)....basically failed....plus the cost of the beginners cycle all over again(20k). 

Now I'm back to work...not because i need the money....its because i need the money i can afford to lose. Plus a very convincing head hunter.

Haven't changed my intra-day method for months now...I'm settled finally. Just need more time, more practice...

This is my dream, the freedom....i won't quit until i die.

Keep on carrying on...

CanOz


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## IFocus (7 October 2012)

I blew 3 $10K accounts and spent more on seminars etc.

I stayed in the game because of stop losses I always had one and always took the stop.

The key is staying around long enough to work it out "it" being really not that hard.

I haven't had a down year for a long time but I have stood aside as the market has gone side ways. I think I may have broken even during this period but instead have been making to much in WA's boom to bother burning the psychology account.

This latest little run up has me interested again but for me its no point trading unless the conditions warrant.


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## Trademyshoes (7 October 2012)

Wow - CFD's. The bain of my life!

I'm quite in the red with CFD's trading very simple indexes. 

-Wall ST
-Spot Gold
-Spot Silver
-AUD/USD
-EUR-USD
-ASX200
-FTSE

Probably looking at about 3 thousand dollars in the red. I'm also trying to trade my way out of trouble treating it as a big game, which I probably shouldn't, but it's a great learning process for me.

Came to a few conclusions on my own which would have helped me earlier;

-Short stops are a disaster waiting to happen
-Betting against big moves can hurt
-Betting on the back of an already exhausted big move is a disaster
-Greed will kill you
-Stubornness will kill you

The only thing I can do now is jump on the back of market sentiment. It makes my wins minimal, but still wins. It makes my losses minimal, which is always a plus.

I consider this to be a lot of fun - it is the most fun I've had in years. I'm determined to learn and trade.

My favorite market is Spot Gold - my money is always there after leaving it alone and analysing the price moves over the course of a year. Given, my wins are only moves of about 2-6 dollars, but hey a win is a win and I'm not willing to continue with the greed of a win.

So, with IG, the minimum is ten contracts which gives you $10 profit per $1 move, or to break it down further, $1 per every 10 cent move.

One of the major things I've learnt, and this one is very important to me; Do not be upset if you exit, for example, a long in profit, but miss another few points. In the early days I would think that the move has more steam, and ignoring any indicators I'd jump back in only to find it has maxed out and time to re-trace. Ouch...


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## Julia (7 October 2012)

Canoz

No obligation to answer the question, and I don't mean to be intrusive, but did you put that $20K+ into the CFDs thinking "it's all profit, so I don't care if I lose it"?
Or did you consider doing something safe with at least some of the profit before risking the rest?



> Joined "The Chartist" in 2007 ish and made allot back, but struggled with work and trading.
> 
> Made 13k in 2008 shorting the crash....gave it all back thinking it would continue to get worse...
> 
> ...



Perhaps you've answered my above question here.  
You seem to have had a pattern of not holding on to profits.  I guess that's fine if it's just play money.
Do you think you'd take a different approach if you were dependent on what you could generate from your trading/investing to live on?




IFocus said:


> I blew 3 $10K accounts and spent more on seminars etc.



Could I ask the same question as I asked Canoz above, i.e. was that money you were happy to lose?
I'm a bit puzzled about the situation where you start off with $10K and just watch it being lost right to the bottom.  Was this before you had the stop losses referred to below in place?
I might be completely misunderstanding what you were doing.


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## CanOz (7 October 2012)

Yeah i guess that at the time i thought since i had earned the money from the market, so i was more careless with it. I guess that's why they say "only use money you can afford to lose". That said, it still created deep psychological wounds that took allot of time to heal and its made me much more risk averse today.

Interesting that my wife is just the opposite because she is an entrepreneur and used to taking risks. 

Also, i didn't understand expectancy. My stops were too wide, and the CFDs were an extremely uneconomical way to trade.

The second scenario i learned that you just can't pattern trade and not expect a drawdown....i quit trading after i gave back the 13k and therefore missed the bottom of the market and lots of profitable long trades because i wasn't in the market.

CanOz


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## craft (7 October 2012)

I like these loser threads because they get the closest to the right approach.

Risk by its very definition is being exposed to a possible negative outcome.

You can’t be successful if you don’t take on risk.

You can only do two things to control risk. 

1)	Take risk on when it’s priced favourably.  (according to your strategy) 

2)	Managing the negative outcomes.

Do these two things and you will have a positive expectancy  - All that remains is to be exposed to risk for long enough for any negative randomness to be overcome by your expectancy and you have a plan to win.

Lots of people talk about an edge but I suspect some don’t actually understand what it is – Its whatever address 1) above.   Generally there’s not much to do with an edge after you have worked yours out except, scan/wait until your criteria is met, and then take a position. 

After nailing down 1) The real work of being in the market is 2) managing negative outcomes (the positive takes care of itself) and that means being immersed in your mistakes.  I know personally that I spend so much time concentrating on managing negative outcomes that it generally comes some what as a shock when the big picture is tallied up – all of which that leads me to the clip below which sums it all up for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc


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## burglar (7 October 2012)

Trademyshoes said:


> ... treating it as a big game, which I probably shouldn't, but it's a great learning process for me. ...




It is a big game!
It's the stupidest* game in the world!:

Like lawn bowls, it's for young people but old people can play too!




craft said:


> ... Risk by its very definition is being exposed to a possible negative outcome.
> ...




+1 I'm giving it a red hot go!

No longer young, so I go riskier than I know I should!
I have been trading seriously for twelve years now, 
another five will see me on an old-age pension!!



> * Stupidest can be heard and seen everywhere, but it's wrong. (Please don't ask me to roll out my entire exposition on why finding a word in a modern dictionary doesn't make it legitimate, standard English. Paul and I have already paddled across that ocean several times.)Stupid is just like lucid (same -id ending). The comparative form is more lucid, and the superlative form is most lucid. Likewise, the comparative form of stupid is more stupid, and the superlative form is most stupid.
> 
> Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_stupidest_a_word#ixzz28cAAUvLb ...


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## So_Cynical (7 October 2012)

craft said:


> I like these loser threads because they get the closest to the right approach.
> 
> Risk by its very definition is being exposed to a possible negative outcome.
> 
> ...




I have never heard it put so simply and so beautifully....great post.


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## burglar (7 October 2012)

craft said:


> ... all of which that leads me to the clip below which sums it all up for me.



Loved your clip!

Here's one that does it for me.

He only fails twice before he succeeds.
And I really love the backing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19zFlPah-o


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## craft (8 October 2012)

burglar said:


> He only fails twice before he succeeds.




You think!!

http://www.spoke.ie/2011/05/danny-macaskill-outtakes/


ps

I also love Danny MacAskill video's - The boy can ride a bit.


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## burglar (8 October 2012)

craft said:


> You think!! ...





Funny: Commercial for Remington, but Danny is unshaved!! 

http://www.spoke.ie/2012/09/video-danny-macaskill-does-san-fran/


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## IFocus (9 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Canoz
> 
> No obligation to answer the question, and I don't mean to be intrusive, but did you put that $20K+ into the CFDs thinking "it's all profit, so I don't care if I lose it"?
> Or did you consider doing something safe with at least some of the profit before risking the rest?
> ...




I could afford to lose the $10K each time but don't remember being happy to lose.

I was trying to trade various methods all of which were viable but totally lacked the skill and psychology to do so.

I always used stop losses and always took the stop thats the reason I only when down $30K total I was surrounded at the time by people who were seriously blowing up $100k accounts.

The answer for me was to go back and test / sim to death methods and understand the why and when they work.


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## burglar (9 October 2012)

IFocus said:


> ... The answer for me was to go back and test / sim to death methods and understand the why and when they work.




A winner is a loser who never gives up!


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## ThingyMajiggy (9 October 2012)

burglar said:


> A winner is a loser who never gives up!




Aren't they also called gamblers?


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## skc (9 October 2012)

burglar said:


> A winner is a loser who never gives up!




But not all losers who never give up are winners.

And that's what most people don't (or don't want to) think about.


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## burglar (9 October 2012)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Aren't they also called gamblers?




Not once they're winning!


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## burglar (9 October 2012)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Aren't they also called gamblers?




Ayrton Senna gambled with his life.
At age 34 he had his first losing bet.
He is not remembered for gambling.

He is a three times world champion!


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## So_Cynical (9 October 2012)

burglar said:


> Ayrton Senna gambled with his life.
> At age 34 he had his first losing bet.
> He is not remembered for gambling.
> 
> He is a three times world champion!






burglar said:


> Ayrton Senna gambled with his life.
> At age 34 he had his first losing bet.
> He is not remembered for gambling.
> 
> He is a three times world champion!





He is remembered for being a world champion that died in a fiery crash.

Ill quote the first sentence/paragraph from his wiki.



> Ayrton Senna da Silva (pronounced [aˈiɾtÃµ ˈsenɐ da ˈsiwvɐ] ( listen); 21 March 1960 – 1 May 1994) was a Brazilian racing driver who won three Formula One world championships. He was killed in an accident while leading the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayrton_Senna


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## burglar (7 November 2012)

Feeling a bit upbeat, as opposed to beat up!

The Dow is up.
The Price of Gold is recovering.

The AllOrds on a sprint!

A coupla winning trades, ...


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## ThingyMajiggy (13 December 2012)

burglar said:


> Ayrton Senna gambled with his life.
> At age 34 he had his first losing bet.
> He is not remembered for gambling.
> 
> He is a three times world champion!




How'd I miss this reply? 

Senna was the master, loved the movie/doco on him, and good points, agreed once they're winning, thought you mean't in general, hard to determine for some if they are sticking at it, or addicted. 

Although I guess you'll pick it up if you don't stuff up too big, don't get far without taking a few risks though I guess


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## notting (13 December 2012)

The most annoying thing about Senna was that the accident was not even on a bend pushing curve.
It was quite a conservative thing he was doing.
We then had to put up with Shoemaker for years after that.
If he had gone out pushing the bounderies you could say well he wasn't quite as good as he was crazy.
The master knows his limits, but this isn't the way it happens.
So he has the title of the best as far as I can see.
Hate GP.


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## burglar (13 December 2012)

notting said:


> ... The master knows his limits, ...




Agree,  
"... racing, such style, such finesse, pure Fangio"








notting said:


> ... Hate GP.




??


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