# Do you love whales?



## moneymajix (7 February 2008)

*Refocus on whales, not whaling*


Thousands of whales continue to be savagely hunted and killed every year. At WSPA, we are determined to put a stop to this cruelty – a vision we think you share. 

It’s not long til the International Whaling Commission’s next meeting. With Japan and Norway preparing to hunt nearly 2,500 whales this year, it’s time the Commission reassessed its priorities. 

Will you help us remind the world that the argument should not be about kill quotas, but protecting whales from suffering? 

Please make your voice heard. Add your name to our petition and tell governments it‘s time to refocus on whales not whaling Sign petition now >


http://www.wspa-international.org/news.asp?newsID=484&type=0


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## moneymajix (7 February 2008)

*Re: Do you love whales?  I mean when they are alive.*

http://www.petergarrett.com.au/8.aspx


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## Wysiwyg (7 February 2008)

I don`t just love whales, I love all of nature as much as any dumb human could.I think we should stick to eating cows,sheep,chickens and pigs.Leave the wild animals/plants be.


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## 2020hindsight (7 February 2008)

yep
and I hate lying whalers who look you in the eye and claim its scientific. 

and of course they claim this wasn't mother - and - calf
But it sure was some mother's calf  

And they claim it's necessary for their "science" to sample all sizes 
(whatta loada bs)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/07/2157129.htm


> Whale kill photos misleading, Japanese say
> Posted 4 hours 45 minutes ago
> Updated 4 hours 37 minutes ago
> 
> ...


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## MS+Tradesim (7 February 2008)

I eat meat...still, it would be nice to see our table food shown the respect and compassion it deserves...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Science/Story?id=771414&page=1

I'm glad they're making an outrage about whales. Maybe after they ban whaling the activists can turn their attention to caged hens and other atrocities that occur on our own soil.


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## nioka (7 February 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> and of course they claim this wasn't mother - and - calf
> But it sure was some mother's calf




Whale beef for the school lunches and whale veal for the restaurant trade. Happens all the time with cattle, beef and veal and with sheep, mutton and lamb.


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## 2020hindsight (7 February 2008)

nioka said:


> Whale beef for the school lunches and whale veal for the restaurant trade. Happens all the time with cattle, beef and veal and with sheep, mutton and lamb.



Maybe,
then again you read that most of the meat is thrown out 
the modern Japanese don't like it that much 

PS I notice (on Lateline) the hunting of dugong in Aus waters getting some attention.
should be worth watching things develop


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## numbercruncher (7 February 2008)

I try not to think about it too much because it pisses me off so much that I end up feeling vengeful and angered, which elevates my stress levels which then leads to hardening of my arteries , see what these Idiots are doing, not just killing Harmless beautiful whales but slowly killing those whom care about them as well.

Owned my First Save the Whales T, well singlet, nearly 20 years ago, think ill come back as a Whale in my next life with Intercontinental Nuclear tipped whale boat busta-move (C) missles fitted inside my blow hole. Ill then hook up with Mobi Dick and the other boys from the country club and go whaler-ing


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## Awesomandy (8 February 2008)

The Japanese have been hunting whales for many many years. It's part of their tradition and culture to do so. And now, just because the western world think it's wrong, they are forcing the Japanese to change their way of life. So, in this regard, I actually support whaling, as long as they are not being hunted to extinction (which unfortunately, I have to say, is a bit of a fine line nowadays.) Just imagine it, all Islamic countries decide to join forces, and try to ban the hunting of pigs/serving of pork in the rest of the world. How would you feel about that? 

(Apologies to the Islamic population on this forum - this is only an example, and not an attack on your ways of life).


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## agro (8 February 2008)

i signed it on the fact that the whales they are hunting are on the endangered list..

once the whales go what next? seals?

oh and its for the better of humanity - research purposes right


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## wayneL (8 February 2008)

Awesomandy said:


> The Japanese have been hunting whales for many many years. *It's part of their tradition and culture to do so*. And now, just because the western world think it's wrong, they are forcing the Japanese to change their way of life. So, in this regard, I actually support whaling, as long as they are not being hunted to extinction (which unfortunately, I have to say, is a bit of a fine line nowadays.) Just imagine it, all Islamic countries decide to join forces, and try to ban the hunting of pigs/serving of pork in the rest of the world. How would you feel about that?
> 
> (Apologies to the Islamic population on this forum - this is only an example, and not an attack on your ways of life).




Nonsense!!

Do some more research.


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## tech/a (8 February 2008)

Awesomandy said:


> The Japanese have been hunting whales for many many years. It's part of their tradition and culture to do so. And now, just because the western world think it's wrong, they are forcing the Japanese to change their way of life. So, in this regard, I actually support whaling, as long as they are not being hunted to extinction (which unfortunately, I have to say, is a bit of a fine line nowadays.) Just imagine it, all Islamic countries decide to join forces, and try to ban the hunting of pigs/serving of pork in the rest of the world. How would you feel about that?
> 
> (Apologies to the Islamic population on this forum - this is only an example, and not an attack on your ways of life).







> The Japanese have been hunting whales for many many years.




Hahaha I can see Japanese whalers in wooden long boats
paddling down to Antarctica loading up with whale and paddling back!!They've whaled out their back door so they come down to ours.

Papau New Guinea Natives can be excused of killing then consuming their victims----because cannibalism has been part of their culture for years.

Fur seals---- 

There are times when cultures must change their old habits for the good of the planet.
Have you become involved in "Global Warming" yet or is that just something the whole world should ignore?

The Japanese are very selfish on this issue.Support global warming but stuff the whales.

As for this Research nonsense.How stupid do they really think the populace of the world is.How Arrogant.


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## Judd (8 February 2008)

Awesomandy said:


> The Japanese have been hunting whales for many many years. It's part of their tradition and culture to do so.




Incorrect.

General MacArthur, as military governor of Japan in 1945, revived the practice of large-scale whaling to feed millions of Japanese who were on the verge of starvation after World War II.

Before that, only small minority of Japanese dined on whale meat. And most of those lived in isolated coastal communities and obtained their whales "passively", ie when they were driven ashore by whale sharks, or by surrounding them in a mass of small boats and spearing them to death.

Ancient Japan was never a builder of large ships and deep-water whaling was only introduced there in the 19th century as Japan emerged from a long period of self-imposed seclusion.


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## 2020hindsight (8 February 2008)

no doubt there will be a trade off 
"ok for some Minkes (quota etc) not for humpbacks etc "
was surprised to see a claim of TV last night that Tim Flannery allegedly called the Minkes the "rabbits of the seas" 

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22987914-5014144,00.html


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## IFocus (8 February 2008)

Japan is the worlds greatest consumer of fish.

The world wide catch of wild fish has been in decline for some time better technology less fish.

About 70 per cent of marine fish stocks are either fully exploited, over fished, depleted or recovering from overfishing.

Ask nioka  if he can take his grand kids and catch the same kind and amount of fish like he used to at the same age?

Nioka to state the obvious there are animals that are farmed and bred for human consumption and have been for thousands of years. 

The hunting of the likes of mountain Gorillas and whales I find an abhorrence and struggle to understand the conscious intellect of those who do. 

Focus


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## roland (8 February 2008)

.... and remember how much trouble the lack of whales caused the guys from Star Trek:

A space probe appears over 23rd century earth, emanating strange sounds towards the planet, and apparently waiting for something. As time goes on, the probe starts to cause major storms on earth and threaten its destruction. James T. Kirk and crew are called upon once again to save mankind. They discover the strange sound is actually the call of the humpback whale - which has been hunted to extinction. They have only one choice - to attempt to time travel back into the 20th century, locate a whale, and bring it back to 23rd century earth to reply to the probe. Written by Colin Tinto {cst@imdb.com}


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## Awesomandy (8 February 2008)

Judd said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> General MacArthur, as military governor of Japan in 1945, revived the practice of large-scale whaling to feed millions of Japanese who were on the verge of starvation after World War II.
> 
> ...




From what I know, whaling has been mentioned in Japanese literature dating back to the 7th and 8th century. Harpoons were used from around the late 16th century as well.


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## Wysiwyg (8 February 2008)

Judd said:


> Before that, only small minority of Japanese dined on whale meat. And most of those lived in isolated coastal communities and obtained their whales "passively", *ie when they were driven ashore by whale sharks*, or by surrounding them in a mass of small boats and spearing them to death.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I think you mean Killer Whales here as Whale Sharks are predominantly passive plankton eaters.


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## gelatii (8 February 2008)

Interesting read from the other perspective...

http://www.whaling.jp/english/qa.html

Btw. I do not support whaling.


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## --B-- (8 February 2008)

i have no problem whatsoever with japanese whaling.

i would have absolutely no problem if commercial whaling was reinstated and regulated so as to remain sustainable.

i find it terribly hypocritical of western nations to tell the japanese what they can and cant eat. if the japanese want to eat minke whales then they should be allowed to.

as it stands they utilise a loophole in the IWC regulations that allows whaling for scientific purposes. there is no doubt the japanese do indeed conduct research as they submit reports to the IWC which outline the research being done. lets not forget the IWC is a purely voluntary organisation and the japanese are members so as to keep the peace. 

its a disgrace that our government, a member of the IWC, now feels we have the right to openly and publicly criticise the japanese for doing something that is entirely legal and is approved by the organisation of which we are members.


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## Agentm (8 February 2008)

i totally agree that whaling should be allowed, what right has anyone to say a whale is inferior to eat, say compared to a sheep cow or pig?

whaling is cultural, we have eskimos killing narwhales in the most beautiful way, as the pods go by they pick them off with high powered rifles, then behead them, keep the meat and the ivory.. the bullets pass harmlessly through a number of them and there is little harm to the sea, there is no pollution in this type of whaling which is very eco friendly.

on the coast of nsw the aboriginal tribes have been hunting whales with the killer whales for perhaps centuries, there are many diocumented stories about the amazing relationship between the killer whales and the aboriginal tribes.

we have stopped the whaling at eden and the unique bond between killer whales and man has been broken. I think every effort should be made to bring back whaling to eden and to ensure the cultural traditions of whaling there is recommenced.

i think if they trained the killer whales that are in the various sea worlds around the globe to kill the larger whale species, and then introduced them back into the environment at eden, we could have a a two fold green solution, first we can get whales out of the small tanks and back into a healthy environment, and we could have natural whaling as it should be, and bring tourism back to whaling as it should be, in a natural and family friendly cultured way. with daily cruises that can watch this natural act and be totally in tune with nature at the same time.

in terms of who gets the spoils of the whales killed in this naturla way? i believe we could sell the meat to the japanese and market it as natural and eco friendly whale meat, which would be far more commercially  acceptable there. not only are "no dolphin killed" in preparation of that meat, we can also add that the purchase of the meat will ensure eco sustainable whaling can continue.

this sort of thing is a project green peace and the sea shepherd should get behind, they can use their ships for the purpose of getting the whales into the shallow waters of eden so the natural whale experience is guaranteed, and raise money as they maintain a visual daily presence with the tourism industry.. they could also get the more active members to do daring raids and rescue the dolphins from various theme parks and train them to swim with the cruise boats and so ensure every cruise can guarantee a cetacean experience.

all imho and dyor..


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## Happy (8 February 2008)

Total ban might lead to overpopulation, but all nations saving them except for 2 or 3 to make large kill looks bit unfair, almost like allowing one race to hunt for Dugongs and all other races in Australia not.


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## Agentm (8 February 2008)

cant have overpopulation,  i think the dugongs should be also culled by anyone, so next time we take that "you'll never never know" trip to the NT they can chuck in a dugong throat slitting package in the weekend trips there?
makes for a good picture i think, a quiet lagoon and the water rich red and a happy hunter with a freshly culled dugong..  could be a great market..


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## 2020hindsight (8 February 2008)

probably early symptoms of "the food wars " 
certainly the Taiwanese and Korean fishing boats take one hell of a lot of fish out of the South Pacific seas - and the long line fishing techniques down south take out one hell of a lot of albatroses as well 

MS made reference earlier to "eating something as intelligent as a pet" - reminds me of the talk back radio in HK - Englishmen who lived near the abbotoirs where dogs were beaten to death - so that their bruised flesh was more tender etc . ..    Oh boy , that was yet another uncultured "culture clash"


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## chops_a_must (9 February 2008)

> Do you love whales?




I've dated a couple of fat chicks in my time...


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> I've dated a couple of fat chicks in my time...




like the bloke who gave the missus a "save the whales" T shirt - 
 and got a black eye for his troubles.


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## Stan 101 (9 February 2008)

We kill kangaroos and sharks, others kill whales. Some countries kill select people.

I've always wondered why whales and dolphins are precious yet sharks are the evil cousins? 
It's terrific people want to save the whales (I want to collect the whole set  as you can't save everything and you can really only choose one or two causes.


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2008)

Stan 101
just thinking aloud ok..
whales are peaceloving playful things
and you wouldn't get more peaceloving or playful than dolphins.

Are you really saying we should kill em ? 
Are we talking like sport fishermen? - or for food?

And throw into the equation that some of these are going downhill population wise and approaching extinction.

The Japanese Govt has (as I understand it) been forcing whalemeat onto a reluctant population.  All sorts of weird incentives to eat that damned stuff.

Why not live and let live?  Hell it will be difficult enough for so many animal species to adjust to and battle through the climatic changes ahead. 

PS I realise you are an avid scuba diver - and I suspect a pisstake here somewhere.


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## wayneL (9 February 2008)

Stan 101 said:


> We kill kangaroos and sharks, others kill whales. Some countries kill select people.
> 
> I've always wondered why whales and dolphins are precious yet sharks are the evil cousins?
> It's terrific people want to save the whales (I want to collect the whole set  as you can't save everything and you can really only choose one or two causes.



Whales and dolphins are intelligent emotional creatures. Sharks aren't.

But we shouldn't give the sharks such a hard time either. The ocean turns into a cesspit without them.

This show was just on the box over here: "Saved By Dolphins"


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## Stan 101 (9 February 2008)

2020, no pisstake, mate..

Yep I love to see whales and dolphins as much as the next person, probably more due to all the close encounters.

I'm trying to get it in my head as to why whales/dolphins are more important than say, tigers, elephants, or a bilby for that matter. As I mentioned, it's terrific people have a cause. 
 For instance, how many tigers is a whale worth? How many wombats is a dolphin worth? And maybe harder still, how many jersey cows is a dolphin worth? How many tiger sharks to a dolphin?

When does the line get passed and it's okay to kill other creatures before the intense emotion is evoked.
I still remember as a kid seeing images of the harp seals being beaten. It was shocking. The was major outcry. kill a few thousand roos and people are fine with it..

Could it be simply population is the major concern? I don't think it's the "cute" factor as the roo is quite cute, especially to visitors to oz.


Dolphins aren't the lovely creatures they are portrayed to be.
Male dolphins will kill a new born dolphin if there are limited females in the clan. Females won't mate while weening a baby, therefore the males get frustrated and murder the newborn. With no child to care for the female dolphin starts to mate again..


cheers,


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## wayneL (9 February 2008)

Stan 101 said:


> Females won't mate while weening a baby, therefore the males get frustrated and murder the newborn. With no child to care for the female dolphin starts to mate again..



I wonder how often this same thought runs through male human's minds.


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2008)

Speaking of shooting fellow creatures - some questions triggered by Stan 101's comparison of whales with sharks

Is it ok to kill a shark in self defence? - bangstick whatever. Obviously yes. 
next what about a poisonous snake that simply blocks your way?
or wants to take up residence in a woodheap near where the kids play?
what about a croc that has taken up residnce in the swimming hole in the local creek - (as they are finding in Townsville after recent floods - I think I'm right) 

As much as I admired Steve Irwin, I would take a long time to be convinced that "live and let live" also applied to some of these circumstances   - 

then again, in the case of crocs or snakes, if he and his team - or someone else - had the skills to transplant em to the wild somewhere, then that would be ok. 

PS killing perfectly innocent things however for "fun" or unneccesarily - or even a dog for food  - sorry, my mind just won't go there (any more).

(hey - no problem with cats though )

PS remember I shot a wallaby once as a kid.  As I got up to it, a joey managed to get out from the pouch of its dead mother - ran off into the bush to an almost certain death.  - that was enough for me.   (PS but culling is ok if justified)


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2008)

Stan 101]Females won't mate while weening a baby said:


> I wonder how often this same thought runs through male human's minds.




don't think I want to go there either, lol.


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2008)

Stan 101 said:


> 2020, no pisstake, mate..
> 
> ....... How many wombats is a dolphin worth? And maybe harder still, how many jersey cows is a dolphin worth? How many tiger sharks to a dolphin?



It gets trickier still m8
bride price inPNG...
How many pigs for a wife?
(or camels in other parts of the world no doubt)


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## 2020hindsight (10 February 2008)

Japanese Whaling - The Science of Whales


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## noirua (10 February 2008)

Well done 2020, we should send out a submarine and sink one of the Japanese whaling boats. Then deny all knowledge of it.  That should get them thinking.


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## 2020hindsight (10 February 2008)

noi - Actually, don't think I'd be in favour of that lol
Let's not stoop to the level of the French govt terrorists who bombed the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour,  Marsden Wharf whatever.  (actually I lived there on a yacht for a while - we used to play water polo at night in the harbour ) 

Tim Flannery (and MS and others) have pointed out a few facts - and I guess we have to come to some sort of agreements about some sort of fishing boundaries.

But we sure need to watch them - I mean they happily fish out the northern hemisphere and then they want to rape the southern as well    I have seen the Korean and Taiwanese fishing boats operating out of Samoa ...  and coming in with dozens of shark fins strung on a "clothes line" as well. - Off thread, but everyone who touches sharks fin makes 100% markup - very lucrative indeed. 

As I proposed on the "global warming" thread , we should just build a bludy big thermally insulated wall around the equator - and let those eggheads try to fend for themselves.  

But as for food - we all see these things differently I'm sure - these photos from the savanna of Africa , the elephant trying to pull the first spear (of hundreds that finally killed it) out of its back.  It was the one in his eye that stopped him


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## 2020hindsight (10 February 2008)

Here's Tim Flannery's article again.. 

He is arguably saying that there isn't enough krill to go round - so if some the minkes are killed then the humpbacks and the fin whales have (presumably ) a better chance ) ?

He also touches on the intelligence issue - sheep vs dog etc. 


http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22987914-5014144,00.html



> ENVIRONMENTALIST and 2007 Australian of the Year Tim Flannery has declared his support for the hugely unpopular Japanese whaling program.
> 
> As Australia prepares to monitor the whaling fleet in Antarctica amid rising diplomatic tensions with Japan, Professor Flannery says there is nothing unsustainable about its annual cull of up to 1000 whales - particularly the common minke whale.
> 
> ...


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## Who Dares Wins (10 February 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> - and the long line fishing techniques down south take out one hell of a lot of albatroses as well




Sorry mate you don't know what you're talking about there.

I've been a Fisheries Observer for 8 years and have worked as a CCAMLR Observer in the past also. I'm not sure where you mean when you say "down south", but I can tell you that in the last 12 years of fishing in the Ross Sea in the Antarctic there has been 1, thats right only one, bird caught on a commercial longline, and even that was not an Albatross. Thats an enviromentally safe average when you consider that approximately 216 million hooks were set during that time. Thats publicly available information also.

Even commercial longliners around the Australian coast have significantly reduced there catch of seabirds over the last 10 years. 

Don't be sucked in by all the negative hype you hear - Greenpeace is a corporate also, they have to turn a profit.

WDW


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## Happy (10 February 2008)

We get easily worked up with endangered species, but I always keep in mind fact that many species extinction happened without our intervention, so it is part of evolution suppose (huge sorry to creationists).

But to me it looks bit silly to create sanctuary and out of 200 few countries have one to behave there like kid in cookie jar.

Finland is after them too, but I understand not in southern waters.


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## numbercruncher (10 February 2008)

Maybe Whale killing satisfies a some sick sense of "payback" or "defiance" for some Japanese?



> Toshiko Marks, a professor of multicultural understanding at Shumei University, said: "I don't know anyone sensible who honestly says they like to eat whale meat. I hate it because I was forced to eat it as a child immediately after the war because there was not much else. But if you ask young people, they've never tasted whale and don't want to.
> 
> "On the other hand, there is a sense that we're having this issue rammed down our throats and people do not like being told what to do by primarily Anglo-Saxon countries that have done some pretty cruel things themselves."




http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/09/1202234230439.html

Seems nearly everyones got some long standing or even multi generational grudge with "anglo-Saxons" nowadays


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## nioka (10 February 2008)

noirua said:


> Well done 2020, we should send out a submarine and sink one of the Japanese whaling boats. Then deny all knowledge of it.  That should get them thinking.



Using the same line of reasoning should the japanese navy sink the greenpeace ship or blast the protesting rubber duckies with cannons instead of water?


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## BeterValue (10 February 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Maybe Whale killing satisfies a some sick sense of "payback" or "defiance" for some Japanese?
> 
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/09/1202234230439.html
> ...




Are these the same people who treated POWs like animals?  

So they are just killing these whales to defy anglo-saxons?  That is very, very sick.


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## 2020hindsight (10 February 2008)

Who Dares Wins said:


> Sorry mate you don't know what you're talking about there.
> 
> I've been a Fisheries Observer for 8 years and have worked as a CCAMLR Observer in the past also. I'm not sure where you mean when you say "down south", but I can tell you that in the last 12 years of fishing in the Ross Sea in the Antarctic there has been 1, thats right only one, bird caught on a commercial longline, and even that was not an Albatross. Thats an enviromentally safe average when you consider that approximately 216 million hooks were set during that time. Thats publicly available information also.
> 
> ...




WDW
mmm - could it be that the numbers are down and the decline is slowing as a result?

WDW, I'd be very pleased to hear from you that something has changed from a few years back, when they were being hauled in in significant numbers. 

http://books.google.com/books?id=3y...ts=f3IpFqXg85&sig=i0W6KaZjvvzIoOuL5fyckfQ2QsE

fwiw,  page 159 ( end of page) and 160 reads as follows:-


> "Is it possible that the mortality caused by long lining could bring about the extinction of some albatrosses? The answer to this blunt question is 'yes'. An annual decline of 1% leads inexorably, if slowly, to extinction.
> 
> Because a world without albatrosses is unthinkable to anyone who has been moved by their aerial grace, and to anyone who hopes that humanity is not inevitably bound to perpetuate economic rape on the high seas, the search is on for solutions.  Since it is unrealistic to anticipate an end to longlining, the challenge is to find ways of setting the line (and to a lesser extent retrieving it) that reduce the risk that it will catch birds, and means of persuading fishermen to adopt those revised ways."




btw, this one on Clipperton Reef ... (up near Mexico I know - but the only youtube I could find in a hurry - probably all the worse for being closer to USA) 
shark numbers, pollution, plastic etc etc 

  Clipperton's Dirty Secret 



> This musical vignette is an homage to the life that is still clinging on ever so desperately at Clippeton Atoll. I say this because we are exploiting it's waters by illegal fishing and polluting it's shore with our trash.
> 
> During our expedition to Clipperton Atoll there was a tuna boat that we believe was fishing the waters of this protected Marine Sanctuary. During the course of approximately 20 dives we saw little more than a handful of sharks. The once fearful Clipperton Atoll had been finned to but a mere few reef sharks that were so afraid, they stayed off in the shadows.
> 
> ...




Anyway- I'd love to hear that it's "under control"


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## numbercruncher (10 February 2008)

BeterValue said:


> Are these the same people who treated POWs like animals?
> 
> So they are just killing these whales to defy anglo-saxons?  That is very, very sick.




Yup exactly, made them work so hard that thousands dropped dead, Caused countless thousands more to die from malnutrion and Disease, Removed the heads of any who defied them with samurai swords, Forced thousands of women to become sex slaves. The same nation who we helped rebuild after defeating their evil and Tyranny.

And now this professor of multicultural understanding suggests part the reason they Murder whales is because they dont like being told what to do by the very people they treated worse than wild dogs.

Hes lucky that hes not a politician or the argument might of got heated!


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## 2020hindsight (10 February 2008)

http://www.savethealbatross.net/
http://www.savethealbatross.net/the_problem.asp

WDW , This web site says 1 every 5 minutes btw. (probably embellished I concede) ...
BUT EQUALLY, You sure you know that only 1 was caught last 12 years?



> ’Albatrosses have survived in the harshest marine environments for 50 million years; more than 100 times longer than our own species. However, these magnificent birds are unable to cope with man-made threats, such as longline fishing.‘
> Sir David Attenborough - Broadcaster and naturalist



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albatross


> Of the 21 species of albatrosses recognised by the IUCN, 19 are threatened with extinction. Numbers of albatrosses have declined in the past due to harvesting for feathers, but today the albatrosses are threatened by introduced species such as rats and feral cats that attack eggs, chicks and nesting adults; by pollution; by a serious decline in fish stocks in many regions largely due to overfishing; and by long-line fishing. *Long-line fisheries pose the greatest threat, as feeding birds are attracted to the bait and become hooked on the lines and drown. Identified stakeholders such as: governments, conservation organisations and people in the fishing industry are all working towards reducing this by-catch*.




I take it that that is a blatant lie.  i.e. that "people are working towards reducing this by-catch" ?? 
since as you say there aren't any caught.

PS Wikipedia have a photo which they claim to be of one being caught.  They also claim that there are illegal fishermen operating.


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## Who Dares Wins (11 February 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> BUT EQUALLY, You sure you know that only 1 was caught last 12 years?
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albatross
> ...




Yes, I am sure there has only been one seabird caught in the Ross Sea Longline fishery over the last 12 years. 

Its true that in other locations around the world Albatross are caught but I was quite specific in my original post regarding location. It was you that said "down south" - From that I didn't think you meant Clipperton island for example.

The Ross Sea Longline fishery has a trigger point of 3 seabirds caught that will close the entire fishery down for the season. This means that if 3 seabirds are caught collectively by the fleet then all of the fleet, even the vessels that haven't caught any of those 3 birds must cease all fishing for the rest of the season. Interestingly that figure of 3 seabirds includes birds that are caught and released alive, for example any birds that are caught during hauling of the longline as opposed to the setting of it. 

The closest this trigger point has come to being activated is many years ago when 1 vessel caught 1 bird.  

Its important to remember that CCAMLR observation coverage on these vessels is 24hours on 100% of vessels involved.

The problem with forums like this is that everyone is an expert on absolutely everything. Its dead easy to cut and paste a link to some lobby group who aren't above twisting the facts a little to support their own arguments (and donations they receive), and to throw a YouTube video that looks good and emotive as well. 

The truth need not get in the way.


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## Stan 101 (11 February 2008)

Who Dares Wins said:


> The problem with forums like this is that everyone is an expert on absolutely everything. Its dead easy to cut and paste a link to some lobby group who aren't above twisting the facts a little to support their own arguments (and donations they receive), and to throw a YouTube video that looks good and emotive as well.
> 
> The truth need not get in the way.




You dared, and it seems you won... Checkmate!

cheers,


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## 2020hindsight (11 February 2008)

Who Dares Wins said:


> Yes, I am sure there has only been one seabird caught in the Ross Sea Longline fishery over the last 12 years.
> 
> Its true that in other locations around the world Albatross are caught but I was quite specific in my original post regarding location. It was you that said "down south" - From that I didn't think you meant Clipperton island for example.
> 
> ...



WDW 
I don't want to misquote you .. ok
but I think you are saying - or are you saying whatever (I'm interested ok) 
a) it used to be a problem
b) to the extent that every boat in the Ross Sea fleet now has an inspector 
c) 24 / 7 (more than one inspector?)

d) plus other methods of tackling it
http://www.savethealbatross.net/solutions.asp

btw, I hope these inspectors get plenty of money - to be able to rise above any offers to ignore the odd bird or two 

I hope the illegal ships are doing there bit - sounds like they skip a few overheads that the honest ships (Ross Sea etc) have to take on board.

PS I have done a bit of sailing - cmoplete with the odd Albatross.   Others in my family have done heaps more.  Been around the horn etc - and they'll tell you ( as if you didn't know) that the number of albatross is down bigtime.

But I guess that's not relevant to a good story either


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## imajica (11 February 2008)

Some high end Japanese restaurants in Sydney have whale sashimi on the menu.


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## Who Dares Wins (11 February 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> WDW
> I don't want to misquote you .. ok
> but I think you are saying - or are you saying whatever (I'm interested ok)
> a) it used to be a problem
> ...





Yeah it did used to be a problem in some places like the Indian Ocean for example where its still not great but way better than it was. In the Ross Sea it never was a problem to my knowledge cos when the fishery began the participants already knew how to mitigate against the incidental non-fish bycatch (seabirds). Other places, I expect it still is a problem.

Yes, everyboat in not only the Ross Sea fleet but the whole fleet fishing inside CCAMLR waters around the southern hemisphere (below about 50 degrees south latitude depending on what longitude you're at) must have 2 observers onboard. CCAMLR Conservation Measures stipulate that one of those observers must be from a country other than that which the vessel is from. This is so no favour toward ones own countrymen can occur.

Those 2 observers onboard each longline vessel down there have to observe 100% of all the hooks deployed or set by that particular vessel. It might sound far fetched but its true - I've done it several times myself. 

As far as the money goes, I've never heard of anyone I know getting offered inducements (nicer word than bribe) but no doubt it occurs. I get 3k a week to do this job - might not be much to a banker but its OK with me.

Maybe the Albatross numbers are down around the Cape Horn, I couldn't tell you, though I am going to the Falklands in june. But what I can tell you is that in NZ the Shy Albatross population on the Auckland islands is expanding at a rate of about 2% per year. This has been attributed to a commercial squid trawling fishery located very nearby. While the trawlers do have an impact on the population there is a huge amount of Squid offal pumped over the side of these boats as part of their processing system. This offal is then feed upon by the Albatross which they feed their young with - high protein. The over all effect is a slight increase in population.

But do you know what?

The conservationists still aren't happy with that. They say that despite the population slowly increasing, which to me is a postive, commercial fishing is still i*mpacting*.

Crazy.


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## 2020hindsight (11 February 2008)

Who Dares Wins said:


> Yeah it did used to be a problem in some places like the Indian Ocean for example etc .



thanks - very informative.

PS we need a system like that on the whalers operating around here. 
just to make sure they don't take humpbacks or fin whales


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## Wysiwyg (11 February 2008)

I have  passion for the ocean and when i first realised the longliners were hooking up seabirds (on a documentary) it annoyed me greatly.It is excellent to see the work by the CCAMLR paying off in the monitored boats.Unfortunately the `fisho` rules apply to the rest and the seabird kills in the Southern Ocean are part of business. http://www.aad.gov.au/Asset/magazine/2007-12/30seabirds.pdf


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## hangseng (11 February 2008)

BeterValue said:


> Are these the same people who treated POWs like animals?
> 
> So they are just killing these whales to defy anglo-saxons?  That is very, very sick.




Please don't paint such an ugly picture. History is history let it go.

I have just had the pleasure of being in Japan and I can tell you first hand the momentum of the Japanese people themselves will place pressure on what is now occurring. Put simply they are against this and now one of the biggest international supporters of Japanese whaling has written an excellent article which was placed on the front page of mainstream Japanese newspapers. He is now dead set against what they are doing and has spoken profoundly against the whaling operations. He also supported what I found on the streets so to speak, that the Japanese people are against this and have been kept blind up until recently.

I will also say I saw not one restaurant in my extensive wanderings that had whale on the menu.

I have the utmost respect for these people and I can assure you we can learn a lot from them so don't isolate by bringing up the past that both they and us regret ever happened.

We are also not so perfect. Have a look in our own backyard before you throw stones at these wonderful, charming, respectful and honourable people (I wish I could use all of those descriptors for all Australian people). They will be dealing with this I am sure. I love Australia with a passion butI have learnt respect for the Japanese and especially what they have achieved in the face of adversity none of us will probably ever know.


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## Out Too Soon (23 October 2008)

http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_081017_2.html

Time to put your money where your mouth is peoples, all those spare dollars we have laying around waiting for the ASX to bottom.










Do it- there'll be a place in heaven for you if you do.


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## Out Too Soon (23 October 2008)

Oh! & the difference between eating whale & beef is the intelligence of the animal. I eat beef although I know it to be evil, it's not as evil as eating whale. 
It's even less evil to eat fish & less again to eat a mollusc. I just love fish & oysters


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## 2020hindsight (23 October 2008)

OTS - Flannery says it's ok to kill a few minkes in his opinion. They are the rabbits of the sea - IQ of sheep etc - can be sustainably harvested.  But (he argues) stay away from humpbacks and fin whales which are endangered ... 

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22987914-5001021,00.html



> December 31, 2007 12:00am
> ENVIRONMENTALIST and 2007 Australian of the Year Tim Flannery has declared his support for the hugely unpopular Japanese whaling program.
> 
> As Australia prepares to monitor the whaling fleet in Antarctica amid rising diplomatic tensions with Japan, Professor Flannery says there is nothing unsustainable about its annual cull of up to 1000 whales - particularly the common minke whale.
> ...







> *In a paper published that year in Quarterly Essay he argued that smaller-brained whales could be hunted sustainably.
> 
> "If these animals are closer in intelligence to the sheep than the dog, is it morally wrong to eat them if they can be harvested sustainably?" he wrote*.




http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22991635-5001021,00.html


> January 01, 2008 12:00am
> Mr Flannery said he was much more concerned about the decimation of essential krill populations than the death of common whales.


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## Happy (24 October 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> I don`t just love whales, I love all of nature as much as any dumb human could.I think we should stick to eating cows,sheep,chickens and pigs.Leave the wild animals/plants be.




With population going to touch 9 billion in 50 years time or so, whales might have to be on a menu including any other digestible source of food before human population expansion collapses.

Krill might be better calorific option to whale thou, so whales might have to be eradicated in order to protect krill for human consumption.

Even without doom scenario, whale’s population growth might have to be kept in check to give better chance for other krill consumers, which are on humans’ menu.

What gets me upset is that all the world conserves whales just for handful of countries and that’s not right.

There should be quota for every country we could trade it, but not be blindly robbed.


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## IFocus (24 October 2008)

Happy said:


> With population going to touch 9 billion in 50 years time or so, whales might have to be on a menu including any other digestible source of food before human population expansion collapses.
> 
> Krill might be better calorific option to whale thou, so whales might have to be eradicated in order to protect krill for human consumption.
> 
> ...




Happy your thinking is common with many but with all due respect deeply flawed

The impact of a continuing ever expanding population of humans on this planet will mean the continual removal of the environment required to support the food chain that whales require to survive.

The current extinction of plant / animal life and destruction Eco systems is epidemic.  

The killing of whales as a food source is very symbolic of aversion to the real issues facing humanity.

I think of it in terms of how politicians in the US say drilling for oil in Alaska will solve its oil problems total BS.

The killing of whales for a food source ignores thousands of years of human history that the great advances in human living conditions and being able to support large populations came from farming land.

This is and remains the most efficient and effective method of food production. 

Whale meat is only and will only ever be a delicacy for those who lack understanding. 

I will be fully supporting Captain Paul Watson and the crew of the Sea Shepherd as they campaign in our southern ocean against the Japaneses government whalers.


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## Happy (24 October 2008)

IFocus said:


> Happy your thinking is common with many but with all due respect deeply flawed





IFocus,
 You use wrong brush on me, but being bent on some idea makes you part blind.
Since you make impression that you know better and more importantly have the answer, actually all answers I am not going to argue, because I have no answers.

All I can do is imagine some scenarios.

Australia being focused on increasing population looks silly to me (drought, water shortages, and energy possible shortages)
Countries not putting control to their population, allowing for famine and civil war to reduce number of people.
Outrage caused by one child policy in China looks outrageous to me.

But my position does not change possible scenarios that have to be taken into account since little is done to curb population explosion.


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## Happy (24 October 2008)

And one more thing, food is food.

Would you believe that as we discuss whale meat,
people consume: snakes, snails, rats, witchetty grubs, maggots, apes to name the few delicacies that are not the most popular food for large proportion of Australian population?


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## haunting (24 October 2008)

A friend sent me these photos, have a look.


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## haunting (24 October 2008)

Blah blah blah


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## haunting (24 October 2008)

Hlab hlab hlab


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## Happy (24 October 2008)

Haven’t got any pictures as amateur fisherman puts worm on a fishhook?


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## IFocus (24 October 2008)

Happy said:


> And one more thing, food is food.




Then I take it you wouldn't object to eating long white pigs




> Would you believe that as we discuss whale meat,
> people consume: snakes, snails, rats, witchetty grubs, maggots, apes to name the few delicacies that are not the most popular food for large proportion of Australian population?




I never understood how some one could carry out the killing great apes.


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## Garpal Gumnut (24 October 2008)

I like whales.

As a species, looking at those photos, humans are a blood thirsty lot, "red in tooth and claw".

gg


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## Happy (24 October 2008)

IFocus said:


> I never understood how some one could carry out the killing great apes.




Personally I wouldn’t, but I can see that some people had to make choices.



Imagine ritual in South America, that required sacrifice of human life, when reaped out still pulsating human heart was used for prosperity forecast.
Later it was replaced with goat or was it alpaca’s heart.

In Leningrad during 3 and 1/2  years blockade during Second World War especially during winters, cannibalism was sometimes only means of survival – apparently mothers with small children were most tempted to do that.

We have even film based on real life episode, when survivals of plane crash tried to withstand ordeal consuming human flesh.

Even closer to home, head hunters ate a human or few, after won little battle.

It looks gross and presumably pictures from abattoir for average Joe and Jenny would be responsible for sleepless nights too, but such is reality and consequences of being an omnivore.


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## Out Too Soon (17 November 2008)

When there's no whales, apes, cows, dogs or molluscs (or insects or enough plants) left then the obvious result will be eating humans. When there's a plague of rats the rats end up eating rat.:topic:


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## Ageo (17 November 2008)

Ok for all the whale lovers out there i have a question........

Lets say a type of whale (that is not endangered) is harvested for food...... what is the difference between that and say a cow? or a rabbit? too me "sustainable harvesting is always a good thing and healthy for our environment"


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## Wysiwyg (28 September 2016)

Record number of whales migrating south is gonna get the great whites active I reckon. Ballina boy is just the first this season.


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## russs (8 October 2016)

I love whales. who does not like such animals


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## SirRumpole (8 October 2016)

Ageo said:


> Ok for all the whale lovers out there i have a question........
> 
> Lets say a type of whale (that is not endangered) is harvested for food...... what is the difference between that and say a cow? or a rabbit? too me "sustainable harvesting is always a good thing and healthy for our environment"




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat


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