# The meaning of life?



## Sean K (15 January 2007)

Anyone here have an idea of what the meaning of life might be? 

Just a simple question…..


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## wayneL (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Anyone here have an idea of what the meaning of life might be?
> 
> Just a simple question…..




Google it! lol

No just joking.

I think (and by no means an authority) that it is self realization, as simple as that. (and whatever that is, or means)

But the question opens up a whole philosophical, spiritual and biological can of worms. I'll enjoy this! lol

Cheers


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Google it! lol
> 
> No just joking.
> 
> ...



LOL, I did Google it and I got a link to Monty Python....  

I think self realisation (or self actualisation - Maslow) is definately part of it, but I don't think it's just about understanding yourself......Not trying to be cryptic, just opening it up a bit...

I think a lot of people will jump on the 'happiness' bandwagon, which is ok - Aristotle did....and most of those old dudes living around the Greek Islands eating grapes a few years back...

Or, is just about survival?


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## 2020hindsight (15 January 2007)

a. "Life, like true love, is a gland experience." Confuscius
b. "Life wasnt meant to be easy, but it can be magnificent" Malcolm Fraser (quoting Methusela, 969 year old opinion)
c. "Better to understand that life should have meaning"  Bugadif Iknow
d. "is self-a-where-ness"  WayneL lost whilst coming home from pub  
e. "When in doubt, go back to sleep" Sleeping Buddha

and amongst the heavyweight quotes:-
f. "The tragedy of life is what dies within a man whilst he lives" Albert Schweitzer
g. much like trading .."the hardest things to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn"  David Russell
h. "Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans"  Thomas La Mance (obviously copied the beatles!!)
i. "It is not true that life is one damned thing after another - it's one damned thing over and over" Edna St Vincent Millay
j. "Life isn't all beer and skittles; few of us have touched a skittle for years"  Lawrence Peter


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I think (and by no means an authority) that it is self realization, as simple as that. (and whatever that is, or means)



I just thought that Maslows self actualisation might be different to your 'self realisation' Wayne. Self realisation could include an understanding of nature and perhaps even aspects of evolutionary biology and sociology, etc....


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## constable (15 January 2007)

The meaning of life imo is to keep it going.....and of course that would mean  having fun while practising the one thing that keeps it going!!!!


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> The meaning of life imo is to keep it going.....and of course that would mean  having fun while practising the one thing that keeps it going!!!!



Is mediocrity satisfactory for us all Constable? I get the feeling that that's what we'd end up with by just 'having fun and surviving'. Can human beings really do this? I'm not sure. What do you think?

I think one aspect of 'the meaning' is happiness, but we can only really achieve this by being *content * with what we have at every moment. If we are not content, then we are restless, wanting more, there is something we don't have......Or, perhaps if we have an understanding that we never actually can achieve happiness 24/7, this could result in contentment.....then happiness....and that contributes to 'the meaning'......maybe.


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## krisbarry (15 January 2007)

*We are just transporters of the human gene.  Nothing more nothing less!*

But humans just have this fascination with filling up our lives with so much crap.

Another way of looking at it is: We are spinning on a rock in space, pretty simple really.


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## macca (15 January 2007)

Well, the meaning of life for the vast majority of things on this planet is to eat, sleep and procreate  

It is only us humans that want to make it complicated


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## Kauri (15 January 2007)

Make the most of it, you are a long time dead.


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## 2020hindsight (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> If we are not content, then we are restless, wanting more, there is something we don't have......Or, perhaps if we have an understanding that we never actually can achieve happiness 24/7, this could result in contentment.....then happiness....and that contributes to 'the meaning'......maybe.



You realise, kennas, that we're all gonna end up Buddhists with this thread  opcorn:  
great Buddhist nun on ABC (Sydney 702) this evening - fantastic - she's giving a talk this Saturday at Masonic Centre


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## catihouse (15 January 2007)

43

or was it 42?

The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy


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## Ken (15 January 2007)

i dont think there is a meaning.

just turn up!


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## tech/a (15 January 2007)

Well the best I've heard and makes sense to me is.

"The continual journey of learning."

Now if you believe that consciousness can take a form other than physical---in other words when the body dies consciousness continues in a form other than physical---and reincarnation could exist--then it seems to make sence.

Much more but I need a few scotch's and so do those involved in the conversation.


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## catihouse (15 January 2007)

I've just checked.

The answer to the meaning of life is 42.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

macca said:
			
		

> Well, the meaning of life for the vast majority of things on this planet is to eat, sleep and procreate
> 
> It is only us humans that want to make it complicated






			
				Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> *We are just transporters of the human gene.  Nothing more nothing less!*
> 
> But humans just have this fascination with filling up our lives with so much crap.
> 
> Another way of looking at it is: We are spinning on a rock in space, pretty simple really.




Yep, I have to agree with these sentiments to some degree. We do make it complicated, but why? I don't think we can avoid this. Look around. Look how we make our life as hard as possible, filling it with cr!p we don't need. Or, is this just the West? Or, is it a natural path for humans to follow. Perhaps it's only because we've overpopulated the place....that now it's complicated...

I do like the total objectivity and reductionism here though.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

I actually wish Bullmarket was here for this.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

tech/a said:
			
		

> Well the best I've heard and makes sense to me is.
> 
> "The continual journey of learning."
> 
> ...



Yep, time for another....

I do like the extension of this to perhaps include what comes next. The religious people will definately have something to say in regard to living a certain way here to satisfy their God....or Gods...

Like the learning bit. Needs to be part of the overall plan though I reckon. Learning what exactly? Everything? Would like to define it a little more, but perhaps the thread will become too big!


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## constable (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Is mediocrity satisfactory for us all Constable? I get the feeling that that's what we'd end up with by just 'having fun and surviving'. Can human beings really do this? I'm not sure. What do you think?
> 
> I think one aspect of 'the meaning' is happiness, but we can only really achieve this by being *content * with what we have at every moment. If we are not content, then we are restless, wanting more, there is something we don't have......Or, perhaps if we have an understanding that we never actually can achieve happiness 24/7, this could result in contentment.....then happiness....and that contributes to 'the meaning'......maybe.



whoa big fella read "throw away comment" for my last post.
but now that im here......not sure about the mediocrity bit because you would need a set of parameters from which to compare ...in which world /life /religion/ would you possibly use to compare anyones life and meaning thereof.
What if there was no meaning of life but to purpetuate it.
What if there was no religion no afterlife no gods and once you were dead you simply cease to exist ...it could be that simple...although just about every religion on earth holds the afterlife as a threat against you if you dont conform in this life to their own particular doctrines. (should you ask im a karma man myself, what goes around comes around etc)
If i step on a snail it dies ...does it have a snail god or because it cant imagine one it just gets eaten by ants and bacteria. getting of track here
If i was an alien (i am not ok ) looking at our society what would i think....
We used to think that the earth was flat we used to burn witches and believe iraq had wmds ,we we used to believe a lot of things that are just plain garbage today but were deadly serious to that era. Today is no different.
We are still loooking for answers to give our life meaning and worth
In what field ,sport,religion type of society we do that in is irrelevant except to yourself and the peers you value.

Anyway our planet is small and universally we are a spec of dust with a false sense of power.
Im really not that pessimistic but end of the day we are only here for the blink of times eye and i couldnt careless about the pheriferals.
.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> whoa big fella read "throw away comment" for my last post.
> but now that im here......not sure about the mediocrity bit because you would need a set of parameters from which to compare ...in which world /life /religion/ would you possibly use to compare anyones life and meaning thereof.
> What if there was no meaning of life but to purpetuate it.
> What if there was no religion no afterlife no gods and once you were dead you simply cease to exist ...it could be that simple...although just about every religion on earth holds the afterlife as a threat against you if you dont conform in this life to their own particular doctrines. (should you ask im a karma man myself, what goes around comes around etc)
> ...



LOL, I actually thought what you had originally said had some legs and needed to be expanded, as you have, and I'm with you in most things. 

One thing I think we could disagree on in Karma. I'm not too sure if this is actually a truism, or whether karma was a concept designed to control people and make them act in a way to create a stable environment. Is your Karma the same as the Buddhist Karma (for eg, that your Karma from a previous life follows you and your present Karma into the next life) or are you talking more about a present day - sow and yeh shall reap kind of thing?

Sorry if you thought I was having a go at you, wasn't intended at all...  

(disclaimer: I'm a reformed Buddhist)

PS, how do you know you're not an Alien. I read somewhere today that life on Earth originated from Mars.....


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## clancyfish (15 January 2007)

I've heard it said that trying to divine God or 'Godliness' is like a clock trying to understand the clockmaker...understanding the 'meaning of life' is beyond me, I just like a good bellylaugh as often as possible.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> What if there was no religion no afterlife no gods and once you were dead you simply cease to exist ...it could be that simple...although just about every religion on earth holds the afterlife as a threat against you if you dont conform in this life to their own particular doctrines.



Also, personally, I believe that we do turn to dust and therefore, we have to live the best life that we can in this world, in this life. There are no second chances...it's an uplifting feeling to me. A revelation!   

I think that ancient cultures and religions invented the afterlife as a way of controlling people, and as a security blanket. It's a concept, that when you are dying and are going to leave the ones you love, provides you with comfort and reassurance that you will see your loved ones again. (unless you go to Hell....)

It's also a damn fine motivational tool to encourage warriors to sacrifice their life to save the tribe! Classic Old Testament stuff!!


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## constable (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> LOL, I actually thought what you had originally said had some legs and needed to be expanded, as you have, and I'm with you in most things.
> 
> One thing I think we could disagree on in Karma. I'm not too sure if this is actually a truism, or whether karma was a concept designed to control people and make them act in a way to create a stable environment. Is your Karma the same as the Buddhist Karma (for eg, that your Karma from a previous life follows you and your present Karma into the next life) or are you talking more about a present day - sow and yeh shall reap kind of thing?
> 
> ...




my karma belief is as simple as stated "what goes around comes around" must have watched to many superhero cartoons when i was a kid!
no apology required big fella i think i made some new brain cell connections while thinking about this ....thankyou  
ps i dont look like an alien is that enough proof?


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## wayneL (15 January 2007)

clancyfish said:
			
		

> I've heard it said that trying to divine God or 'Godliness' is like a clock trying to understand the clockmaker...understanding the 'meaning of life' is beyond me, I just like a good bellylaugh as often as possible.




Fair comment too.

We are a bit like a mule at a new gate, trying to figure this out. Maybe Monty Python had it right all along:

"...life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.."


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> ps i dont look like an alien is that enough proof?



You look like a Tiger to me, trying to kill an antelope, or gazelle - trying to survive, perhaps.....


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## krisbarry (15 January 2007)

If you are having a bad day, no matter how bad, just think of the "100 year rule"

In 100 years time what will it matter, it won't matter, you will be 6 feet under.   Speaking of "6 feet under", what a brilliant TV show that was!

Anyway that is the rule I use when I have done lots of dosh in the market  

And for those that are making squillions in the market the same goes, what will it matter in 100 years....it won't matter.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> If you are having a bad day, no matter how bad, just think of the "100 year rule"
> 
> In 100 years time what will it matter, it won't matter, you will be 6 feet under.   Speaking of "6 feet under", what a brilliant TV show that was!
> 
> ...



So, maybe having a clear perspective on the world and your position in it assists in being happy and content??


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## constable (15 January 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> If you are having a bad day, no matter how bad, just think of the "100 year rule"
> 
> In 100 years time what will it matter, it won't matter, you will be 6 feet under.   Speaking of "6 feet under", what a brilliant TV show that was!
> 
> ...



yes the richest man in the cemetary is the happiest surely!


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> yes the richest man in the cemetary is the happiest surely!



LOL. Yes, you can't take it with you.

But, would it make you happier to know that you were leaving a fortune to your children, or friends, or to Rwanda, so that they had the means to live the good life????


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## constable (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> LOL. Yes, you can't take it with you.
> 
> But, would it make you happier to know that you were leaving a fortune to your children, or friends, or to Rwanda, so that they had the means to live the good life????



yes i have two sons and another on the way would be good to know they wouldnt have to struggle like i did , (cue violin). However struggling did me no harm and gave me a backbone unlike some of the yella bellied youth of today.
Crikey my 16 year old has a heart attack when i get him to take the rubbish out!


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## 2020hindsight (15 January 2007)

Stop_the_clock said:
			
		

> If you are having a bad day, no matter how bad, just think of the "100 year rule"...In 100 years time what will it matter..



Something similar to the "2cent rule".  
You oldies may recall when they decimalised the Aus currency (jingle :- "on the fou-or teenth of feb-ru-ary nine-teen - six-ty-six, 14 feb 1966) it was easy to convert the notes ($1 = 10/-,  $2 = 1 pound) etc, 
and also some coins (20c = 2/-,  5c = 6d,  ).

But the experts argued ad nausium about whether a thippence was gonna be a 3c or a 2c.  (strictly 2.5c).  There was an automatic devaluing of the thippence in going to 2c, but then again, people would get confused etcetc.
How many wasted hours went into that little "non-problem".

And now, lol - you can't even get a 2c coin   

Summary, The Two-Cent Rule = when it doesnt matter a damn, just make a decision (toss a coin?) and move on --- in a few years no one will even remember. 
alternatively "it doesnt matter what you decide, as long as you decide something"


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## 2020hindsight (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> they wouldnt have to struggle like i did , (cue violin).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo = the four yorkshiremen 
speaking of monty python


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> "it doesnt matter what you decide, as long as you decide something"



There's a lot of people out there who have suffered from depression, who would find this to be one of the hardest aspects of having a good life - and maybe a significant factor in the meaning of life. Good one.


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## spooly74 (15 January 2007)

A lot of good ideas here and I`d say a lot more to come!

Can anyone actually be wrong if they have an opinion?
Perhaps the simple answer is dyor  
Good luck to all holders


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## Mofra (15 January 2007)

We are here to learn, not to be judged.

Once you fully understand the concept, you may feel one step closer to determining what _your_ meaning to _this_ life is.


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## justjohn (15 January 2007)

dyor    sorry everyone its been a long day


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## constable (15 January 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo = the four yorkshiremen
> speaking of monty python



 2020 thats funny 
ok  i had it good until we got kicked out of our septic tank home lol


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## insider (15 January 2007)

Well If you really want to know you'll have to ask me nicely


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## 2020hindsight (15 January 2007)

spooly74 said:
			
		

> Can anyone actually be wrong if they have an opinion?



"The meaningless absurdity of life is the only incontestable knowledge accessible to man" Count Leo Tolstoy
("I am certain of nothing except my own ignorance" Socrates)

"The man who regards his own life as meaningless is not merely unhappy but hardly fit for life" Albert Einstein. (trouble is, he was the only one who understood what he was talking about )

"When the experts differ, where the fleck are you and I supposed to queue up??" Alfred E Neumann

We asked a market research group to comment on what was the deep-down meaning to life, after all the glitter, pathos, comedy and cudos was taken into account.  Of the people we asked, 10% said "yes",  10% said "no",  40% didn't know, and 40% didnt want to know.


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## white monkey (15 January 2007)

The meaning of life is to give life meaning. How this is done is unique to each of us.


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## Wysiwyg (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Anyone here have an idea of what the meaning of life might be?
> 
> Just a simple question…..




Hi kennas...Do you mean the existence of a human being from birth to death or do you mean the life (living organisms) on this planet?

I think you mean a humans existence don`t you?


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## theasxgorilla (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> We do make it complicated, but why? I don't think we can avoid this. Look around. Look how we make our life as hard as possible, filling it with cr!p we don't need.




Most of us don't handle boredom very well.  We wax and wane between the paradoxical stress of too much or not enough to do.  Most people I know of (birds of a feather?) prefer having too much as at least that way they can experience feelings of significance.  Past a certain point in my life (as yet undecided) I plan to master the state of having too little to do


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## coyotte (15 January 2007)

Wanted things do not happen-- whilst Unwanted things keep on happening .

Pretty miserable really 


Why doe's there have to be a meaning ? --- it just is


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

Wysiwyg said:
			
		

> Hi kennas...Do you mean the existence of a human being from birth to death or do you mean the life (living organisms) on this planet?
> 
> I think you mean a humans existence don`t you?



Great question. 

I think we always just assume it's about being human, but perhaps this could be extended to the rest of the planet. Some people will actually say that we are just animanls like any other of the species except that out brains have got really big, alllowing us introspection. 

I think we should consider the meaning of all life as part of the equation. 

Religion would say that all life is here for the glory of God. That would include the animals, and plants, and rocks....Or, were the animals etc just planted here for us? It seems from science that this is not the case, that we are just a development of a singular cell. 

Or, maybe they are two different questions. What is our purpose, and what is the purpose of the rest?


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

coyotte said:
			
		

> Why does there have to be a meaning ? --- it just is



Very Zen Coyotte. Do you think the human race thinks like this? How do we come to this understanding?


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## transit (15 January 2007)

Life is about acquiring stuff, aquiring more stuff, reorganising stuff, storing stuff, acquiring even more stuff, buying a bigger place to accommodate stuff, getting rid of stuff, buying a smaller place because you haven't got as much stuff and then you die with stuff all.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

transit said:
			
		

> Life is about acquiring stuff, aquiring more stuff, reorganising stuff, storing stuff, acquiring even more stuff, buying a bigger place to accommodate stuff, getting rid of stuff, buying a smaller place because you haven't got as much stuff and then you die with stuff all.



Gold!


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## mrWoodo (15 January 2007)

To contribute to the human race's gene pool, while not messing up the planet for future generations.

or perhaps (corny but I'll say it anyway)

To have experienced love.


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## rusq (15 January 2007)

My opinion.
Please I'm not religious.

Well, if there is a god, then the meaning of life would be gods meaning, and that meaning, would be to witness the experience of life as it happens, in every possible shape and form that it has ever possibly been manifested into, and every experience that could ever be experienced from, and from every possible point of view.  I guess.  

This is how I figure it:

As god would be the only one around, assuming there's only one god, then god would be pretty bored and would need to entertain itself somehow, so why not play out the meaning of life?  That would take awhile and pass the time quite well, as well as provide deep insights into it's own existence and what that is all about....

If there's no god, then it's up to us to put meaning into our life rather than get meaning out of it.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

mrWoodo said:
			
		

> To contribute to the human race's gene pool, while not messing up the planet for future generations.
> 
> or perhaps (corny but I'll say it anyway)
> 
> To have experienced love.



Yes, love is a grand thing! 

However, why does love exist? So we are attracted to someone and want to have sex with them in order that the species survives....

Also, I have a major, major, issue with the reason for existance being to procreate at the moment.

1. Because we don't need to. We are destroying the planet, and
2. It seems we are developing into a period of human evolution where it is 'survival of the unfittest' in stead of 'survival of the fittest'.

To me it seems all the poor, uneducated, unthoughtful people are spitting out babies, while the intelligent are having one, or none, kids....

Pehaps the reaosn why the lower classes and developing nations keep spitting out heaps of children is another function or survival - because they know the more they have the greater chance that one will turn out ok and survive....in their place...(apologies to all parents)


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## Wysiwyg (15 January 2007)

The majority of people in our society desire money to survive and to determine their quality of life.Everything I see around me costs money.So for me the goal to have a better quality of life comes with a dollar.Everyone on this forum is after it too.

So for me financial abudance is on purpose.


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

rusq said:
			
		

> My opinion.
> Please I'm not religious.
> 
> Well, if there is a god, then the meaning of life would be gods meaning, and that meaning, would be to witness the experience of life as it happens, in every possible shape and form that it has ever possibly been manifested into, and every experience that could ever be experienced from, and from every possible point of view.  I guess.
> ...



Interesting ideas, but why just one God? Why not many? And who made the God?, yada yada...

I have considered that we might be a vague entertainment for something a little more advanced than us (like an experiment from extraterrestials) but it's really clutching at straws and requires quite a bit of LSD, or DMT to make seem really, real.


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## dhukka (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> my karma belief is as simple as stated "what goes around comes around" must have watched to many superhero cartoons when i was a kid!




This interpretation of karma was popularized in the 60's by hippies and is the generally accepted view in the west today. It is at best childish naivety, a fatalistic view that you get what you deserve or you reap what you sow. 
The obvious corollary to this interpretation of karma would be why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa? How is a cambodian child stepping on a land mine leaving him crippled and disfigured reaping what he sowed? Karma literally translated means 'volitional' or 'intentional' action. Your 'karma' is then the result of your actions. 

To ask the question 'What is the meaning of life?' is to miss the point. Life just 'is' all you need to do is 'be'


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## theasxgorilla (15 January 2007)

Kennas,

Have you read a book called "The Road Less Travelled" by Scott Peck?

He has an interesting perspective on the phenomenon of love and lust that you may find insightful.


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## yogi-in-oz (15 January 2007)

white monkey said:
			
		

> The meaning of life is to give life meaning. How this is done is unique to each of us.






..... like your style, White Monkey !~!

Christians tell us, that our lives are all unique ... given by
the grace of God, that we may serve Him, by leading a life
with God-given traits, like LOVE, HOPE, FORGIVENESS,
HONESTY, TRUST, LEARNING (knowledge) and more ... 

We can choose to use those intangible traits in every
decision that we make and unlike other animals, we 
humans are given the power of free-will and it is OUR 
CHOICE, whether we choose the right way or the wrong
way, in every decision we make, especially regarding our 
relationships with others.

We have an element of intrinsic knowledge within all 
of us, that enables us to KNOW right from wrong
(morally), at ALL times.

-----

Astrologers line up with the Christians in saying, that
every life is a unique entity, with each one predestined
to experience certain trials, joys and tribulations across
the duration of their lives ... including any karmic debts
that must be paid.

-----

As a Christian astrologer, it is therefore easy to see how
each individual's life unfolds and where they create 
problems for themselves by making wrong choices, at
critical times in their personal journey.

So, to add to White Monkey's statement above ..... we all  
have the free-will to make the right choices, using those 
intangible traits to the full in our lives, thereby fulfilling 
our unique destiny, that we are all here to enjoy ... !~!

happy dayz

  yogi


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

dhukka said:
			
		

> This interpretation of karma was popularized in the 60's by hippies and is the generally accepted view in the west today. It is at best childness naivety, a fatalistic view that you get what you deserve or you reap what you sow.
> The obvious corollary to this interpretation of karma would be why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa? How is a cambodian child stepping on a land mine leaving him crippled and disfigured reaping what he sowed? Karma literally translated means 'volitional' or 'intentional' action. Your 'karma' is then the result of your actions.
> 
> To ask the question 'What is the meaning of life?' is to miss the point. Life just 'is' all you need to do is 'be'



Dhukka, can you you explain your defination of karma?

Karma has it's origin in Hinduism and was developed for a particular cultual/social reason, not through revelation, or for enlightenment. The theory of the day developed as a way of controlling society, much like the legislation we have in Western society.....??


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

theasxgorilla said:
			
		

> Kennas,
> 
> Have you read a book called "The Road Less Travelled" by Scott Peck?
> 
> He has an interesting perspective on the phenomenon of love and lust that you may find insightful.



 
I have the book, but haven't read it.....I have 10 other books lined up before it unfortunately, and due to ASF I hardly read any more!


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## Wysiwyg (15 January 2007)

theasxgorilla said:
			
		

> Kennas,
> 
> Have you read a book called "The Road Less Travelled" by Scott Peck?
> 
> He has an interesting perspective on the phenomenon of love and lust that you may find insightful.




Hi there, do you have that page number please. I can't find it.


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## mrWoodo (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> However, why does love exist? So we are attracted to someone and want to have sex with them in order that the species survives....



Hmmm, I'd say so - But it doesn't hurt to experience it 



			
				kennas said:
			
		

> 1. Because we don't need to. We are destroying the planet, and
> 2. It seems we are developing into a period of human evolution where it is 'survival of the unfittest' in stead of 'survival of the fittest'.



Great points there - Perhaps we are at a critical mass in evolution. The sheer number of births may produce someone who can push us to the next step. Sci Fi author Stephen Baxter uses the term 'bootstrap' (in computers, a bootstrap is the small program used to load the operating system) in a couple of his books. Once we are able to get enough material out of earth's gravity, we can mine the moon. Once there's enough materials from that mining, we can leave the solar system, and so on. Maybe it will take the pillaging/overpopulation of this planet to get us there? 

Look at Stephen Hawking - Not the fittest guy around, but a brain the size of a small car! Someone like that would have been cast out of the village a thousand years ago. Imagine the potential - Flicking on Jerry Springer does seem to ruin that idea tho.

If we get off-planet, we'll need to reassess the meaning of life - Will it be to spread throughout the galaxy! Hmmm, reading too much sci fi lately  

[edit] one before bed, some apt poetry I've added to the poetry thread :

Have I a body or have I none?
Am I who I am or am I not?
Pondering these questions,
I sit leaning against the cliff as the years go by,
Till the green grass grows between my feet
And the red dust settles on my head,
And the men of the world, thinking me dead,
Come with offerings of wine and fruit to lay by my corpse.

_Han Shan, Cold Mountain_

Night, y'all


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## coyotte (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Very Zen Coyotte. Do you think the human race thinks like this? How do we come to this understanding?




We as a species are incapable of thinking any other way --- the whole universe revolves around ME! 

Wonder if the Battery Hens or the Ewes giving birth whilst getting their rear end ripped apart by dogs, ponder the meaning of life?

Actually many years ago, had a near fatal accident -- in the split seconds just prior when i realized, well pal this is it! --- I went into a deep calm acceptance of the situation and although at the time life was really great with the recent birth of my first child and a wonderful wife, I felt as though I was about to be released from a prison (maybe this is hell) and was quite disappointed when I initally regained consciousness. --- suppose there would be millions who could tell the same type of tale.


Cheers


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## Sean K (15 January 2007)

yogi-in-oz said:
			
		

> We have an element of intrinsic knowledge within all
> of us, that enables us to KNOW right from wrong
> (morally), at ALL times.




then.... 



			
				yogi-in-oz said:
			
		

> As a Christian astrologer, it is therefore easy to see how
> each individual's life unfolds and where they create
> problems for themselves by making wrong choices, at
> critical times in their personal journey.



I'm Confused Yogi...

Is it only Christian astrologers who know right from wrong?


----------



## Sean K (15 January 2007)

coyotte said:
			
		

> Actually many years ago, had a near fatal accident -- in the split seconds just prior when i realized, well pal this is it! --- I went into a deep calm acceptance of the situation and although at the time life was really great with the recent birth of my first child and a  wonderful wife, I felt as though I was about to be released from a prison (maybe this is hell) and was quite disappointed when I initally regained consciousness. --- suppose there would be millions who could tell the same type of tale.



Hhhmmm, I've had what I would call a 'near death experience' but more prolonged. Perhaps it makes us consider the nuances of life too much, and make it more confusing.....


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## dhukka (15 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Dhukka, can you you explain your defination of karma?
> 
> Karma has it's origin in Hinduism and was developed for a particular cultual/social reason, not through revelation, or for enlightenment. The theory of the day developed as a way of controlling society, much like the legislation we have in Western society.....??




No not for enlightenment, as a way of controlling society that may be stretching it. The orignial seers and mystics through right intent and conduct in everyday life and in through rituals saw it as a way to influence the gods and therefore give them the power to determine the course of their own lives. Later it was formalised through the vedas as a sort of code of conduct. The important point and that which separates it from the fatalistic views of western religions is that you are responsible for your own fate.


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## theasxgorilla (15 January 2007)

Wysiwyg said:
			
		

> Hi there , do you have that page number please.I can`t find it.




No, but I'll try to summarise.

Falling in love is a physical phenomenon.  It happens, we experience great joy, invincibility, it feels like this is what we were always meant to do, we shag, it's wonderful, we do it some more.  Eventually though, it wears off and you're left married with kids.  Ooops, didn't know it was going to turn out like this!  Now if you chose your partner wisely and you actually like your kids then you begin to experience real love.  But it's not a feeling anymore, it's an action.  He defines it as, "the opposite of laziness".  To me, that is where it's at.  Life is about love and love is the "opposite of laziness" with regards those that we care about.

And I can't believe I just posted this on a trading forum  

I'm the ASX Gorilla damn it!  Grrr.


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## Wysiwyg (15 January 2007)

theasxgorilla said:
			
		

> No, but I'll try to summarise.
> 
> Falling in love is a physical phenomenon.  It happens, we experience great joy, invincibility, it feels like this is what we were always meant to do, we shag, it's wonderful, we do it some more.  Eventually though, it wears off and you're left married with kids.  Ooops, didn't know it was going to turn out like this!  Now if you chose your partner wisely and you actually like your kids then you begin to experience real love.  But it's not a feeling anymore, it's an action.  He defines it as, "the opposite of laziness".  To me, that is where it's at.  Life is about love and love is the "opposite of laziness" with regards those that we care about.
> 
> ...




I believe it is page 116 Love is Not a Feeling although the whole book explains more than we ever contemplated . Thanks asx.

Don`t get too soft ...the humans are eroding your jungle habitat!


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## transit (15 January 2007)

Sorry for the longish post but for those who want to read it, this theory is called the ‘tendency toward complexity’ and something which I read about recently.

The universe as we know it began in an expansion that scientists call the Big Bang. The first moments after that great expansion, the universe was like a rich soup made out of simple bits of things that were so simple that they were not even atoms yet. 

As the universe expanded and cooled down, these very tiny bits of things came together to make particles which then came together to make the first of the atoms. Then the atoms came together to make molecules which then came together to make the first of the stars. Those first stars went through their cycles and exploded in a shower of new atoms. The new atoms came together to make more stars and planets. All the stuff we are made of came from those dying stars. We are made of stars, you and I. 

None of these things, none of these processes, none of these ‘coming together’ actions are what one can describe as random events. The universe has a nature, and it is to combine and to build and to become more complex. It always does this. If the circumstances are right, bits of matter will always come together to make more complex arrangements. 

This fact about the way that our universe works; this moving towards order, and towards combinations of these ordered things has a name. In the western science it is called “the tendency toward complexity” and it is the way the universe works. 

The universe as we know it and from everything that we can learn about it has been getting always more complex since it began. It does this because that is its nature. The tendency toward complexity has carried the universe from almost perfect simplicity to the kind of complexity that we see around us, everywhere we look. It is always moving from the simple to the complex. The universe is always doing this and has been doing this for about 15 billion years. In another billion years it will still be more complex than it is now. It is moving towards something. It is moving toward some kind of ultimate complexity. But we are all moving towards it – everything in the universe is moving towards it. 

And this final complexity, that thing we are all moving to is called God. If you don’t like that word, God, call it the Ultimate Complexity.


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## 2020hindsight (15 January 2007)

yogi-in-oz said:
			
		

> ..... we all have the free-will to make the right choices



I agree with this yogi - except perhaps I'd delete the word "right".

Jawaharlal Nehru :- "Life is like a game of cards.  The hand that is dealt you represents determinism, the way you play it represents free will. "   (similar concept to yours). 

He also said "I am interested in this world, in this life, not some other world or future life" - I would agree - perhaps you and I differ there.


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## dhukka (15 January 2007)

theasxgorilla said:
			
		

> No, but I'll try to summarise.
> 
> Falling in love is a physical phenomenon.  It happens, we experience great joy, invincibility, it feels like this is what we were always meant to do, we shag, it's wonderful, we do it some more.  Eventually though, it wears off and you're left married with kids.  Ooops, didn't know it was going to turn out like this!  Now if you chose your partner wisely and you actually like your kids then you begin to experience real love.  But it's not a feeling anymore, it's an action.  He defines it as, "the opposite of laziness".  To me, that is where it's at.  Life is about love and love is the "opposite of laziness" with regards those that we care about.
> 
> ...




Not a bad summary, it's not until all the shagging and lust wears off that you  can actually engage in the act loving someone. I wish Tom Cruise would read this book, then everytime he sticks his c%!k in someone he will realise he doesn't have to marry them. 

Peck got a great following with his first book about 25 years ago, his follow up book 'Further along the road less travelled' was less successful. In fact I couldn't finish it, I remember he seemed to get very religious in the second one - that was five years ago I read that, might have a different take on it now.


----------



## chops_a_must (15 January 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> I think (and by no means an authority) that it is self realization, as simple as that. (and whatever that is, or means)






			
				kennas said:
			
		

> I just thought that Maslows self actualisation might be different to your 'self realisation' Wayne. Self realisation could include an understanding of nature and perhaps even aspects of evolutionary biology and sociology, etc....



Well done Kennas, I'm impressed.

I was about to call wayneL Arne Naess, but it looks like you got there first.

Wikipedia on Arne Naess:
"Although a very rich and complex philosophy, NÃ¦ss' ecosophy can be summed up as having Self-realization as its core. According to NÃ¦ss, every being, whether human, animal or vegetable has an equal right to live and to blossom[4]. But this is not simple ego- or self-realization; it is the realization of the Self. Through this capitalized Self, NÃ¦ss emphasizes, in distinction to realization of man’s narrow selves, the realization of our selves as part of an ecospheric whole[5]. It is in this whole that our true ecological Self can be realized. Practically Self-realization for Naess means that, if one does not know how the outcomes of one's actions will affect other beings, one should not act[6], similar to the liberal harm principle."


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 January 2007)

theasxgorilla said:
			
		

> love is the "opposite of laziness" with regards those that we care about.



So are you saying you and the missus toss a coin to see who's up and doing, and who's down and being done?  
sorry m8, its an interesting concept - and I shouldn't take cheap shots 
love is sure the "synonym of craziness" I'll give you that - and you're not wrong about that long term love thing - "lust" might become "rust", but love seems to ensure


----------



## weird (15 January 2007)

I always found this passage thought provoking when considering the meaning of life,

"Ecclesiastes 1 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

*Ecclesiastes 1*

*Everything Is Meaningless*

 1 The words of the Teacher, [a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

 2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

 3 What does man gain from all his labor at which he toils under the sun?

 4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

 5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.

 6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north;round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.

 7 All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again.

 8 All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing.

 9 What has been will be again,what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

 10 Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"?
 It was here already, long ago;it was here before our time.

 11 There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.

*Wisdom Is Meaningless*

 12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 

 13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men! 

 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

 15 What is twisted cannot be straightened; what is lacking cannot be counted.

 16 I thought to myself, "Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge." 

 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.

 18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief."


----------



## kgee (16 January 2007)

didn't he also say "drink wine and be happy" ?


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## weird (16 January 2007)

Amen.


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## noirua (16 January 2007)

When thinking about these matters we use a human brain that's not really up to the task. Because of this we tend to look around at all sorts of books and other material and often believing or hoping a higher power or strength influenced these. Did it? I've only got a human brain so I can't really tell you; If it makes you happy, then believe it, if not, don't.


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## theasxgorilla (16 January 2007)

kgee said:
			
		

> didn't he also say "drink wine and be happy" ?




...which often enough leads to shagging.  Ladies and gentlemen I believe we've found the missing-link...NOW it all makes sense


----------



## coyotte (16 January 2007)

transit said:
			
		

> Sorry for the longish post but for those who want to read it, this theory is called the ‘tendency toward complexity’ and something which I read about recently.
> 
> The universe as we know it began in an expansion that scientists call the Big Bang. The first moments after that great expansion, the universe was like a rich soup made out of simple bits of things that were so simple that they were not even atoms yet.
> And this final complexity, that thing we are all moving to is called God. If you don’t like that word, God, call it the Ultimate Complexity.




But you can add to this CHAOS --- nothing remains in a ordered manner.

There was a interesting interview on ABC Radio the "Science Show" years ago -- in a nutshell --- if you could get far enough away, the universe would appear to be an explosion -- it is the energy within this explosion that keeps the whole thing going -- when the energy disperses that's end of the universe.

Would appear that the sages of ancient times knew a lot more than given credit for:

So all the meaning in the end will amount to nothing --- jokes on us. 


Cheers


----------



## kgee (16 January 2007)

theasxgorilla said:
			
		

> ...which often enough leads to shagging.  Ladies and gentlemen I believe we've found the missing-link...NOW it all makes sense




I like your way of thinking


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## nat (16 January 2007)

Love the Lord your God with all your heart (Mt 22:37-40)
Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” 


Could this be it? Again it all depends on whether you believe theres a god, and if you think there is well maybe one should be following his instructions.

I believe this life is just a stepping stone to eternity and a trial run sort of, its a bit like trading one can gain different answers from all sorts of subjects on life but just like trading its not till you seriously put in the effort to seek the meaning and ask of god will one get the true answer one wants.

Just some quick thoughts of mine. Nathan


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## Bobby (16 January 2007)

The meaning of life is just that ~ 

As for religion, this obscenity of reason *Will* keep culling its own.

Nice to know the clear thinkers out there   

Bob.


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## barney (16 January 2007)

Each persons meaning of life will be unique to them I think, but perhaps the true meaning for each individual could be found if we were able to fully appreciate the significance of death, or simply "not being",  before we actually arrive at that point.

ie. When I get in a crappy frame of mind, I ask myself how would I feel if my wife/children were suddenly taken out of my life ............. helps to turn selfishness into selflessness ............. Cheers, Barney.


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## pacer (16 January 2007)

Who cares.....just keep passing the bourbon bottle till Im dead and let the worms party till Im only bones........:


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## constable (16 January 2007)

dhukka said:
			
		

> This interpretation of karma was popularized in the 60's by hippies and is the generally accepted view in the west today. It is at best childish naivety, a fatalistic view that you get what you deserve or you reap what you sow.
> The obvious corollary to this interpretation of karma would be why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa? How is a cambodian child stepping on a land mine leaving him crippled and disfigured reaping what he sowed? Karma literally translated means 'volitional' or 'intentional' action. Your 'karma' is then the result of your actions.
> 
> To ask the question 'What is the meaning of life?' is to miss the point. Life just 'is' all you need to do is 'be'



Its funny my old man was one of those hippies. Anyway i think there is a difference between karma and stiff sh*t. 
Childish naivety it may well be but a simple solution for my life and the way i look at it, call it a very loose subscribtion. 
End of the day i can only attempt to do the "right thing" by my environment, others and myself . Maybe more fulfillment than meaning in this.


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## 2020hindsight (16 January 2007)

scientists keep trying to make life in a laboratory ?- can't understand the problem - as long as you have an attractive lab assistant ..(L Peter)


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## Kauri (16 January 2007)

I just asked my cat, who has to be the most content and happiest creature I have ever seen. He just shrugged and said....  Whats life??


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## Rafa (16 January 2007)

Great thread... Tho it has wasted half an hour of my precious life   
Once i find another half hour to waste, i will add some of my thoughts to this.

But just one thing on that complextity theory... 
I am a firm believer in the old aussie saying, 'keep it simple stupid.'


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## Sean K (16 January 2007)

Well, here's a little summary so far:

1.	Self realization. 
2.	Transporters of the human gene. 
3.	For the vast majority of things on this planet is to eat, sleep and procreate.
4.	Make the most of it; you are a long time dead.
5.	42.
6.	The continual journey of learning.
7.	To survive.
8.	Richest man in the cemetery is the happiest.
9.	Perhaps the simple answer is dyor. 
10.	We are here to learn, not to be judged.
11.	The meaning of life is to give life meaning. How this is done is unique to each of us.
12.	Why doe's there have to be a meaning? --- it just is
13.	Life is about acquiring stuff, acquiring more stuff, reorganising stuff, storing stuff, acquiring even more stuff, buying a bigger place to accommodate stuff, getting rid of stuff, buying a smaller place because you haven't got as much stuff and then you die with stuff all.
14.	To contribute to the human race's gene pool, while not messing up the planet for future generations, or perhaps (corny but I'll say it anyway), to have experienced love
15.	love.
16.	We are Gods play things…
17.	To ask the question 'What is the meaning of life?' is to miss the point. Life just 'is' all you need to do is 'be'.
18.	We all have the free-will to make the right choices, using those intangible traits to the full in our lives, thereby fulfilling our unique destiny that we are all here to enjoy.
19.	Love
20.	‘Tendency toward complexity’.
21.	Everything Is Meaningless. 
22.	Drink wine and be happy.
23.	Shagging.
24.	Chaos.
25.	Love the Lord your God with all your heart (Mt 22:37-40) Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
26.	The meaning of life is just that ~ As for religion, this obscenity of reason Will keep culling its own. 
27.	The true meaning for each individual could be found if we were able to fully appreciate the significance of death, or simply "not being".
28.	Who cares.....just keep passing the bourbon bottle till I’m dead and let the worms party till I’m only bones........
29.	I just asked my cat, who has to be the most content and happiest creature I have ever seen. He just shrugged and said.... What’s life??
30.	'keep it simple stupid’.

Sorry if I've missed any - some were hard to get a succinct point out of.   

My own theory is something like this:

The ultimate meaning of life is to see the true nature of the world, of yourself, and of reality.  Only by seeing the origin of all thought and action can we have clarity in the reasons for our behaviour and our place in the world. Once we have this understanding we can craft a life whereby we might be able to achieve our actual potential in areas that are true to our original nature, and act in a way in which we live the best life we can, appropriate to our own culture, ultimately for the greater good. This allows us to flourish, and set and maintain the highest of values and morals that create the best environment for us, and those around us, to live in, at peace.  This is the source of the meaning of life, which incorporates contented happiness, but most importantly, is clarity and illumination.


----------



## constable (16 January 2007)

fantastic only 85 posts and asf worked out the meaning of life.


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## Blitzed (16 January 2007)

Life (death) to me is just one (of many) states of consciousness. We get hints of it through sleep, meditation, and even maybe drugs.   

Of course depending on where we are on the hierarchy list of needs...

SURVIVAL.
SECURITY.
SELF-ESTEEM.
LOVE.
SELF-EXPRESSION.
INTELLECTUAL FULFILLMENT OR
SPIRITUAL FULFILLMENT.

will shape how we see the world, ourselves and others. 

Having said that...I could be just having a bad dream and you are all in it.


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## Joe Blow (16 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> fantastic only 85 posts and asf worked out the meaning of life.




We aim to please.


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## tech/a (16 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Well, here's a little summary so far:
> 
> 1.	Self realization.
> 2.	Transporters of the human gene.
> ...




Copied and off to the printers.

Will be distributed to all staff and is next years Xmas card.

Well done Kennas---ever thought of a job with John Sands!


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## Rafa (16 January 2007)

Now that we have solved this question, i have another one....


What is the meaning of death?


Modern commentary only seems to revolve around the Body and Mind... and how to keep that in tip top condition.... Yet, there is always the feeling that something is missing... (hence Shrinks seem to be very popular in the West).


We all know the body and the mind are simply transitory, or temporary. Is there something that lives forever. Most religious say yes, either via the place called Heaven, or via re-incarnation.

Is there such a thing as the SOUL... and would the answer to that then drastically alter the answer to the Meaning of Life.


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## Sean K (16 January 2007)

Rafa said:
			
		

> What is the meaning of death?



I have a feeling the majority of the people who responded here would say we just return to the earth. There's a couple of Christains who will say heaven and hell, and maybe even a Buddhist who will say we come back as a ant - or whatever our Karma has in store for us.

For me, I vote dirt. 

I do like the idea of a soul though, but not the tradional Sects of Abraham concept of soul. For me, my 'soul' is my true personaility (or spirit) that makes me unique. But, it's there in my brain and cells somewhere, not something that floated into me from outer space when I was a foetus, nor something that will somehow float out of my body into someone else at death....absurd, IMO.


----------



## Rafa (16 January 2007)

Yes, its certainly an intangible...
pretty hard to fathom...

But like you, i think it exisits...


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## tech/a (16 January 2007)

Religions and beliefs date back centuries,ranging from Hinuism,to Islam,to Christianity,to Sun Gods,the list goes on.


*Are they not simply designed by the human race
in an attempt to explain BOTH the meaning of life
AND death??*

What sets a religion aside of a fable. Why is it not possible that religions of all sorts are nothing more than human manifestation?


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## Sean K (16 January 2007)

tech/a said:
			
		

> Religions and beliefs date back centuries,ranging from Hinuism,to Islam,to Christianity,to Sun Gods,the list goes on.
> 
> *Are they not simply designed by the human race
> in an attempt to explain BOTH the meaning of life
> ...



Begs the question did God create human's in His image, or did we create God in our image.  

From studying the history of religion, it seems pretty clear to me that we have invented it.


----------



## chops_a_must (16 January 2007)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Modern commentary only seems to revolve around the Body and Mind... and how to keep that in tip top condition.... Yet, there is always the feeling that something is missing... (hence Shrinks seem to be very popular in the West).
> 
> 
> We all know the body and the mind are simply transitory, or temporary. Is there something that lives forever. Most religious say yes, either via the place called Heaven, or via re-incarnation.
> ...



I don't know that the body and the mind are simply transitory or not. That assertion seems loaded to me.

The mind/ body separation replaced the concept of a soul, which was a version of Eastern European shamanism anyway. If you want to know more about that, read the Phaedrus. After all, Christianity stole Ancient Greek thought and its links to shamanism as well.

In the Phaedrus, we have the separation of the soul into characteristics such as the horses, chariot and driver etc. Liken that to Descartes' separation of mind and body with his analogy to a pilot in a ship. Hence the term, "neo-platonist".

In response to the question, "is there something that lives forever?" You can make a strong argument for such. Spinoza argues that everything we are is made of the same substance as everything around us, everything in the universe. This substance is infinite and thus can never be destroyed. In Spinoza's work, there is no difference between material and immaterial, so whatever place you assign the "soul", in his theory it can't ever be destroyed.

The opposing view to this, the one held by Leibniz, is that there are infinite substances, each with its own essence, known as a "monad". These possess no material or spatial character, and are eternal. And mathematically, this appears to be correct. You can never destroy anything that is already here. It may change, it may move, but it never completely goes.

That is a couple of answers at least.

My opinion: the meaning of life is achieving what is meant in the etymology of the word ecstacy, _ex-stasis_.


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## Sean K (16 January 2007)

Nice Chops. You obviously listened at some point at Uni and didn't just drink your way through like me.


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## Pat (16 January 2007)

I had a read of the posts here and there all quite good, insightful, constructive, no one seems to be Devil  :evilburn: 

I guess we/I should look for a simple and elegant answer.

Procreate? just like everything else.

But we've been blessed with this wonderful thing called a mind, and our imagination wanders like a frog in a sock.

Religon is perhaps a good start but from what i see it's designed so we as a "people" will survive, Religon breeds law....

It's easier to live, to procreate, if we laugh, love, hate, fight, invent, explore, learn... (list goes on)
Feed our emotions...... as we are emotional creatures who seem to be controlled buy our own, and others emotions. 
Stockmarket anyone???


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## chops_a_must (16 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Nice Chops. You obviously listened at some point at Uni and didn't just drink your way through like me.



I wouldn't still be there if I wasn't enjoying what I was learning.


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## Julia (16 January 2007)

For anyone who isn't familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, here it is.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (16 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> For anyone who isn't familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, here it is.




Hi Julia,

I have learned about those needs of Maslow's.
I see that all animals possess those needs and humans are the most restrained species on the planet. Particularly those religious kind who pretend to be at the top but fail under analysis - lack of prejudice comes to mind  

What is life?
Existence!


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (16 January 2007)

pacer said:
			
		

> Who cares.....just keep passing the bourbon bottle till Im dead and let the worms party till Im only bones........:



Pacer you add an entertainment value to this forum that only you could add.
Keep up the good work.
Snake


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## Julia (16 January 2007)

I'm really impressed by the thoughtfulness and insight of many of the contributions on this thread - great idea, Kennas.

There's not much I can add except to say that I feel the meaning of life changes for all of us as individuals as we age, mature and develop insight.
e.g. if I look back to what I would have said if asked this question when I was in my 20's, I think it would have been all tied up with too much alcohol, immature relationships and self absorption.  It was a lot about taking.

Now, quite a few years further on, well a lot actually, it's more about acceptance - of myself and others, and just how life simply *is*.

It's a bit hard to say this without sounding sort of prissy, but much of the meaning of life for me these days is in making a contribution towards the community in which I live.  And also the reassurance of the continuity of everything.  Despite our individual ups and downs the sun and moon continue their cycle, and the waves break on the same beaches.  Everything passes, including of course ourselves.  Remembering this helps keep a sense of proportion.

Julia


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## 2020hindsight (16 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> if I look back to what I would have said if asked this question when I was in my 20's, I think it would have been all tied up with too much alcohol, immature relationships and self absorption.



julia, think you're robina crusoe , 
"shame we cant be born at 80 and head back to 18"   (as Mark Twain said - I have to rely on a quote from an 80 year old)

As I keep saying to the kids - "why dont you leave home now, go out into the world, set it all straight - quick, while you know everything"


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## Wysiwyg (16 January 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> I'm really impressed by the thoughtfulness and insight of many of the contributions on this thread - great idea, Kennas.
> 
> There's not much I can add except to say that I feel the meaning of life changes for all of us as individuals as we age, mature and develop insight.
> e.g. if I look back to what I would have said if asked this question when I was in my 20's, I think it would have been all tied up with too much alcohol, immature relationships and self absorption.  It was a lot about taking.
> ...





Apparently the wise ones aren't supposed to say much (the guru on the hill with a gob full of cotton wool) but simply observe. Yes..with every individual there is a lot of similar, but not the same, beliefs. We all need something to cling to. To feel safe. To feel accomplished to feel worthy and to feel accepted. Ohhh the justification. Do you think our physical presence is confined to a small space yet our mental presence is infinite?


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## Nifty (22 January 2007)

Henry Lawson said in a poem: I'm at home on a strange road and lost on a road I know.
I think that line expresses for me, that those of us who are genetically cursed to be searchers and questioners of all things are never at peace in the static mundanity of predictable existence.


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## Sean K (22 January 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> Henry Lawson said in a poem : Im at home on a strange road and lost on a road I know
> I think that line expresses for me ,that those of us who are genetically cursed to be searchers and questioners of all things are never at peace in the static mundanity of predictable existence.



Is this the old 'dumb and happy' concept Nifty?   

My theory on that is that those of a lower socioeconomic group are too busy slaving away in the coal mine tryng to put some beans on the table, to pontificate the virtues of existance....leisure time = stress! Too much leisure time these days! he he.


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## Dukey (22 January 2007)

Hey - Nice thread peoples!! I never noticed it b4.
-here's a couple of responses to some of the suggestions on Kennas's's's summary list....

(Quotes from Kennas's's summary in blue...)
8.        Richest man in the cemetery is the happiest.

>> Mmmm mmmm In my opinion the richest man in the cemetary is...
wait for it...  DEAD!!!   no more no less. :evilburn:

13. Life is about acquiring stuff, acquiring more stuff, reorganising stuff, storing stuff, acquiring even more stuff, buying a bigger place to accommodate stuff, getting rid of stuff, buying a smaller place because you haven't got as much stuff and then you die with stuff all.

  >> Classic!!  You've got it. Who said this???? let me gues ... was it Mr20's? 

18. We all have the free-will to make the right choices, using those intangible traits to the full in our lives, thereby fulfilling our unique destiny that we are all here to enjoy.

>> Nice idea but try telling that to the next 20000 GI's dubya is sending into Iraq!!    

_20.        ‘Tendency toward complexity’.
_
>> So whos been a naughty boy... reading their Einstein biography again.... 



22.        Drink wine and be happy.
& 23.        Shagging.

>> NOW We're getting somewhere  :bier:


29. I just asked my cat, who has to be the most content and happiest creature I have ever seen. He just shrugged and said.... What’s life??

>> Cats are the coolest critters by far Nature. Especially those big mo-fo's in Africa (& India).  
Cats Rule.... Cats Win.
The little buggers know the meaning of life - but do you think they'll ever tell us?? not likely.
If it weren't for their downright scary sexual rituals and noises I'd sign up today.


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## coyotte (23 January 2007)

Rafa said:
			
		

> Now that we have solved this question, i have another one....
> 
> 
> What is the meaning of death?
> ...




If there is a SOUL ---then where could it possibly reside?


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## Freeballinginawetsuit (23 January 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Yes, love is a grand thing!
> 
> 
> Also, I have a major, major, issue with the reason for existance being to procreate at the moment.
> ...





It is as sad fact that the society labelled 'intelligent ones' are having less or no children, probably not getting married, both working and more than likely splitting up after a few years and moving on too the next greener pasture. Now why does that make them smarter, maybe the struggling "single wage earner" happy family with a few well loved kids experiencing the simple joys are the 'intelligent ones'.

On a personal note my mates that are self employed seem to be married, with kids and are actively able to make the time to coach their kids sports teams etc. The ones that are wage earners are single and don't have kids, not sure what this means or even if it is an accurate demographic on Oz as a whole


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## 2020hindsight (23 January 2007)

Dukey said:
			
		

> 13. Life is about acquiring stuff, acquiring more stuff, reorganising stuff, storing stuff, acquiring even more stuff, buying a bigger place to accommodate stuff, getting rid of stuff, buying a smaller place because you haven't got as much stuff and then you die with stuff all.
> >> Classic!!  You've got it.
> 
> 29. I just asked my cat, who has to be the most content and happiest creature I have ever seen. He just shrugged and said.... What’s life?
> >> Cats are the coolest critters by far ..Cats Rule.... Cats Win.



13. you're right - classic - thanks to transit. (post #39)  
29. you gotta be jokin lol - gimme a dog any day.  

Now if I asked my dog "what's the meaning of life"? she'd tilt her head, do her damndest to understand, and to answer for that matter.  No question in my mind what she's trying to say...

"the meaning of life is to serve you boss.
and willingly take up my little dog's cross - 
but the meaning of your life, I'd make a bold guess
it to swear at computers - and buga the rest." 

Furthermore, you dont see too many seeing-eye cats, or customs surveillance cats, or tracker cats, or retreiver cats, .... or useful-in-any-persuasion cats, imho.   Most cats so lazy they wont even catch mice.

See, dogs are lousy poker players, show as much emotion as possible - whereas cats give no emotions away whatsoever. 
and for instance if dogs played cricket, they'd probably walk, whereas cats would just stand their ground and say " what snick ump?"


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## Sean K (23 January 2007)

Freeballinginawetsuit said:
			
		

> It is as sad fact that the society labelled 'intelligent ones' are having less or no children,



Yeah sorry Freeballer, that's a very broard generalisation which I don't actually agree with. The very smart are probably the ones not accumulating any crap and therefore do not have to work 24/7 and can spend time doing what they might seem to be the meaning of life, bringing up 3-6 children in the country, or by the beach.


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## Nifty (1 February 2007)

I am terribly sad to dissappoint but there is no meaning to life. The phrase is an abstract view that has no basis in fact.
We as in the most cases are wastefully intelligent animals who have the deluded idea of our own importance over the remaining spectrum of life on the planet
If one is a religious person science enhances that belief and if that is not the case then the particular religion that is  in conflict with that proposition is too much into literally believing in myths.
Too many Galileos have been locked up or alienated for revealing the truth concerning the universe.
Some see religion as an insurance policy for the possibility of life after death I believe that when you are dead you are fertilizer,but I am not an atheist.
But as Nick Cave says in his lyrics I do not believe in an interventionist God.
If I did then George Bush would have to be a saint and he aint!


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## Sean K (1 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> I am terribly sad to dissappoint but there is no meaning to life. The phrase is an abstract view that has no basis in fact.
> We as in the most cases are wastefully intelligent animals who have the deluded idea of our own importance over the remaining spectrum of life on the planet
> If one is a religious person science enhances that belief and if that is not the case then the particular religion that is  in conflict with that proposition is too much into literally believing in myths.
> Too many Galileos have been locked up or alienated for revealing the truth concerning the universe.
> ...



Some good points Nifty, but I think you are assuming that the meaning must be spiritual or cognitive. Is that so? I have never assumed this. Perhaps the meaning of life is to simply survive like the rest of the animals? Surely, this is still a 'meaning'.


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## imajica (1 February 2007)

I believe that meaning is derived through the pursuit of meaning itself - the truth is in the process


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## Nifty (1 February 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Some good points Nifty, but I think you are assuming that the meaning must be spiritual or cognitive. Is that so? I have never assumed this. Perhaps the meaning of life is to simply survive like the rest of the animals? Surely, this is still a 'meaning'.




Yes kennas, you are looking through the prism of subjectivity while I am trying to think deeper into a non personal cosmic view disregarding my own ego and needs,my ambitions, my me ness,in other words by examining what is and what has been in the total knowledge that we possess concerning our planet and the universe.
The meaning of life is a full on ego thing that I have said is an abstract concept. You cannot quantify it nor can you examine it under a microscope or buy it in a hardware store it is simply a human brained concept.
The survival instinct is in all of us right from when we won our first swimming race to the womb,but the word meaning seems to suggest a justification for existence,and there is none, we simply exist,and I might add Im enjoying the experience


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## 2020hindsight (1 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> from when we won our first swimming race to the womb,



from womb to tomb - from sperm to worm ... jet's greeting, West Side Story


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## chops_a_must (1 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> Yes kennas, you are looking through the prism of subjectivity while I am trying to think deeper into a non personal cosmic view disregarding my own ego and needs,my ambitions, my me ness,in other words by examining what is and what has been in the total knowledge that we possess concerning our planet and the universe.
> The meaning of life is a full on ego thing that I have said is an abstract concept. You cannot quantify it nor can you examine it under a microscope or buy it in a hardware store it is simply a human brained concept.
> The survival instinct is in all of us right from when we won our first swimming race to the womb,but the word meaning seems to suggest a justification for existence,and there is none, we simply exist,and I might add Im enjoying the experience



Which poses the question, does this solipsism automatically lead to an idealism? Does this mean that everything we experience, or everything someone else experiences, just a projection onto the world from our own minds?


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## imajica (1 February 2007)

here's a quote from my favourite cultural theorist, Jean Baudrillard

"The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth ”” it is the truth which conceals that there is none.

The simulacrum is true."


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## 2020hindsight (1 February 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Which poses the question, does this solipsism automatically lead to an idealism? Does this mean that everything we experience, or everything someone else experiences, just a projection onto the world from our own minds?



chops - you been watching "matrix" again ?


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## imajica (1 February 2007)

the writers of the matrix were heavily influenced by Baudrillard's ' Simulations and Simulacra'

they pilfered the term 'desert of the real' which is classic Baudrillard


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## chops_a_must (1 February 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> chops - you been watching "matrix" again ?



No, just reading Kant again. Lol!


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## chops_a_must (1 February 2007)

imajica said:
			
		

> the writers of the matrix were heavily influenced by Baudrillard's ' Simulations and Simulacra'
> 
> they pilfered the term 'desert of the real' which is classic Baudrillard



I've never really understood hyperreality. Maybe it's just because I hate all things fantasy.


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## Sean K (2 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> Yes kennas, you are looking through the prism of subjectivity while I am trying to think deeper into a non personal cosmic view disregarding my own ego and needs,my ambitions, my me ness,in other words by examining what is and what has been in the total knowledge that we possess concerning our planet and the universe.
> The meaning of life is a full on ego thing that I have said is an abstract concept. You cannot quantify it nor can you examine it under a microscope or buy it in a hardware store it is simply a human brained concept.
> The survival instinct is in all of us right from when we won our first swimming race to the womb,but the word meaning seems to suggest a justification for existence,and there is none, we simply exist,and I might add Im enjoying the experience



If the purpose is to just exist (if you are saying this) then how might we exist in the best way possible to make life as happy as can be? Or is this not the point either? Should we just lay down our arms and surrender to life and not attempt to make it the best as it can possibly be? Why not attempt to design an existance that will make our lives and those around us as comfortable and rewarding as possible? Could this be a meaning? 

And in addition, if the search for a meaning is just a human concept, can you make any comment on the purpose of the universe at all? Just why are there cockroaches?? Surely they have a purpose? Or not?


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## 2020hindsight (2 February 2007)

Interesting stuff nifty and chops - getting over my head though.  

Think I agree with chops - at least, on the question of where reality and fantasy start to blurr / merge, it becomes a mental exercise rather than a productive one.  Bit like considering whether a noise is made by a tree falling unheard.  Or is space warped, although lines appear straight in any case.  In the end it doesn't change anything in my life anyway. 

An alternative (dead simple) philosophy, pretty commonly held, and expressed many times in the literature eg The road not taken, by that bore, Robert Frost, or "you gotta walk that highway , nobody else can walk it for you" etc :-
Life is a journey along paths which lead off into an unmapped future.  Many decisions are required along the way, and we make these based on our character, and on chance.   We set off on this journey with a set of character traits, plus pick up more along the way ( honesty, cunning, courage, intelligence, various degrees of self interest, and of compassion for others, - so that e.g. a bank robber and a priest may be similar characters except for their self interest factor).   

In the end, we have the luxury of sitting back with a beer, and contemplating where we are, and how we got there, and also what might have happened had we taken the other fork in the road.  

"And I'm these paths and I'm these doors 
and I'm these footprints through the moors
and I'm these strengths and I'm these flaws, 
and I'm effect, and I am cause."


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## kgee (2 February 2007)

I'm not even sure I understand what the word meaning means


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## Nifty (2 February 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> If the purpose is to just exist (if you are saying this) then how might we exist in the best way possible to make life as happy as can be? Or is this not the point either? Should we just lay down our arms and surrender to life and not attempt to make it the best as it can possibly be? Why not attempt to design an existance that will make our lives and those around us as comfortable and rewarding as possible? Could this be a meaning?
> 
> And in addition, if the search for a meaning is just a human concept, can you make any comment on the purpose of the universe at all? Just why are there cockroaches?? Surely they have a purpose? Or not?



Cockroaches consume plant and animal wastes so yes they have a purpose but of course they are meant to stay outside.
You as an individual create your own "meaning" in exactly the same way as you describe positive aspects such as happiness, caring for your family and those that need a leg up in life and striving towards doing things to the absolute best of your ability, but there is no overarching prevailing universal meaning of life.
You are a universe within a universe, you are completely unique, there is no one else on the planet Earth exactly like you.
What we understand as purpose is a human concept, just like time.Time does not exist in the universe, we made it up. The only reality is change.


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## imajica (2 February 2007)

we construct our own universe through our subjective experience and develop an understanding of what it means to be 'human' through our specific culture (at the macro level) and the influence of the family unit (micro level)

the media in all its forms constructs a complex web of simulacra which both reinforces established social conventions and pushes those which have been negated to the periphery - the media simulates a dynamic, organic entity and hence becomes naturalised into the foundations of the human experience


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## insider (2 February 2007)

Ummm... sorry to break the suspense of the meaning of life but you can find the answer in any dictionary... I got these from Dictionary.com

1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.  
2. the sum of the distinguishing phenomena of organisms, esp. metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment.  
3. the animate existence or period of animate existence of an individual: to risk one's life; a short life and a merry one.  
4. a corresponding state, existence, or principle of existence conceived of as belonging to the soul: eternal life.  
5. the general or universal condition of human existence: Too bad, but life is like that.  
6. any specified period of animate existence: a man in middle life.  
7. the period of existence, activity, or effectiveness of something inanimate, as a machine, lease, or play: The life of the car may be ten years.  
8. a living being: Several lives were lost.  
9. living things collectively: the hope of discovering life on other planets; insect life.  
10. a particular aspect of existence: He enjoys an active physical life.  
11. the course of existence or sum of experiences and actions that constitute a person's existence: His business has been his entire life.  
12. a biography: a newly published life of Willa Cather.  
13. animation; liveliness; spirit: a speech full of life.  
14. resilience; elasticity.  
15. the force that makes or keeps something alive; the vivifying or quickening principle: The life of the treaty has been an increase of mutual understanding and respect.  
16. a mode or manner of existence, as in the world of affairs or society: So far her business life has not overlapped her social life.  
17. the period or extent of authority, popularity, approval, etc.: the life of the committee; the life of a bestseller.  
18. a prison sentence covering the remaining portion of the offender's animate existence: The judge gave him life.  
19. anything or anyone considered to be as precious as life: She was his life.  
20. a person or thing that enlivens: the life of the party.  
21. effervescence or sparkle, as of wines.  
22. pungency or strong, sharp flavor, as of substances when fresh or in good condition.  
23. nature or any of the forms of nature as the model or subject of a work of art: drawn from life.  
24. Baseball. another opportunity given to a batter to bat because of a misplay by a fielder.  
25. (in English pool) one of a limited number of shots allowed a player: Each pool player has three lives at the beginning of the game.  
–adjective 26. for or lasting a lifetime; lifelong: a life membership in a club; life imprisonment.  
27. of or pertaining to animate existence: the life force; life functions.  
28. working from nature or using a living model: a life drawing; a life class.  
””Idioms29. as large as life, actually; indeed: There he stood, as large as life. Also, as big as life.  
30. come to life, a. to recover consciousness.  
b. to become animated and vigorous: The evening passed, but somehow the party never came to life.  
c. to appear lifelike: The characters of the novel came to life on the screen.  

31. for dear life, with desperate effort, energy, or speed: We ran for dear life, with the dogs at our heels. Also, for one's life.  
32. for the life of one, as hard as one tries; even with the utmost effort: He can't understand it for the life of him.  
33. get a life, to improve the quality of one's social and professional life: often used in the imperative to express impatience with someone's behavior.  
34. not on your life, Informal. absolutely not; under no circumstances; by no means: Will I stand for such a thing? Not on your life!  
35. take one's life in one's hands, to risk death knowingly: We were warned that we were taking our lives in our hands by going through that swampy area.  
36. to the life, in perfect imitation; exactly: The portrait characterized him to the life.


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## insider (2 February 2007)

I believe that this question "what is the meaning of life?", is designed for people to focus on the wrong thing... that's my point with my previous post... What people really need to focus on is "what is the purpose of life?"  

Remember: 
_3. the animate existence or period of animate existence of an individual: to risk one's life; a short life and a merry one.  _ 

As in what is your purpose in this life? Some people like to say oh we serve to pass on our genes or go to the after life or whatever... But ultimately you create your own purpose...  In otherwords a meaning... A mean... a path... your oown story...

How about this... The result of your life is determined by every decision you ever made, every decision you made has lead to you reading this post...


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## kgee (3 February 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> How about this... The result of your life is determined by every decision you ever made, every decision you made has lead to you reading this post...




I still don't understand, surely others have directed me towards reading this post so that rather than me been in control of my direction other factors have pointed me this way?
theirs only been few times of clarity in my life and this aint one of them


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## kgee (3 February 2007)

imajica said:
			
		

> we construct our own universe through our subjective experience and develop an understanding of what it means to be 'human' through our specific culture (at the macro level) and the influence of the family unit (micro level)
> 
> the media in all its forms constructs a complex web of simulacra which both reinforces established social conventions and pushes those which have been negated to the periphery - the media simulates a dynamic, organic entity and hence becomes naturalised into the foundations of the human experience




dude!


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## kgee (3 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> Cockroaches consume plant and animal wastes so yes they have a purpose but of course they are meant to stay outside.
> You as an individual create your own "meaning" in exactly the same way as you describe positive aspects such as happiness, caring for your family and those that need a leg up in life and striving towards doing things to the absolute best of your ability, but there is no overarching prevailing universal meaning of life.
> You are a universe within a universe, you are completely unique, there is no one else on the planet Earth exactly like you.
> What we understand as purpose is a human concept, just like time.Time does not exist in the universe, we made it up. The only reality is change.




i like it but i dont believe it where do you learn that stuff


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## 2020hindsight (3 February 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> The result of your life is determined by every decision you ever made, ..



and maybe ...we are the sum total of our past experiences?   


			
				kennas said:
			
		

> If the purpose is to just exist .. then how might we exist in the best way possible to make life as happy as can be?



Seems to me that mere existence is just to "walk that lonesome valley" - until we cross paths with a fellow mortal - whom we can observe going about its life - be that an ant or a man ... but suddenly we have shared our existence, and it strangly starts to gain meaning. "people who love people are the luckiest people etc" - be they 2, 4, 6 or 8 legged. 


			
				chops said:
			
		

> Which poses the question, does this solipsism automatically lead to an idealism? Does this mean that everything we experience, or everything someone else experiences, just a projection onto the world from our own minds?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism_syndrome


> Solipsism syndrome is a state of mind in which a person begins to feel that everything is a dream and is not real...no reality outside one’s own mind. ... The whole of life becomes a long dream from which an individual can never wake up. Even friends are not real, they are a part of the dream. A person may feel very lonely and detached, and eventually becomes apathetic and indifferent.
> 
> Some environments are conducive to producing solipsism syndrome. This state of mind can be easily produced in an environment where everything is artificial, where everything is like a theater stage, where every wish can be fulfilled by a push-button, and where there is nothing beyond the theater stage and beyond an individual’s control. (kids computer games  ??)
> 
> ...



I believe the bit about mental stress, lol - I can feel it ever since I started learning about this crazy Solipsism phenomenon. (10 minutes ago)


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## kgee (3 February 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> and maybe ...we are the sum total of our past experiences?
> 
> Seems to me that mere existence is just to "walk that lonesome valley" - until we cross paths with a fellow mortal - whom we can observe going about its life - be that an ant or a man ... but suddenly we have shared our existence, and it strangly starts to gain meaning. "people who love people are the luckiest people etc" - be they 2, 4, 6 or 8 legged.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (3 February 2007)

kgee said:
			
		

> I don't know what your asking , ... but is solitude  is that the same as solipism or a totally different phenonemn[/QUOTE]
> kgee, I'm not asking anyt...re "everything is really a dream"  :2twocents


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## kgee (3 February 2007)

my mistake


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## 2020hindsight (3 February 2007)

imajica said:
			
		

> the writers of the matrix were heavily influenced by Baudrillard's ' Simulations and Simulacra'.  they pilfered the term 'desert of the real' which is classic Baudrillard





			
				imajica said:
			
		

> we construct our own universe through our subjective experience and develop an understanding of what it means to be 'human' through our specific culture (at the macro level) and the influence of the family unit (micro level)
> The media in all its forms constructs a complex web of simulacra which both reinforces established social conventions and pushes those which have been negated to the periphery - the media simulates a dynamic, organic entity and hence becomes naturalised into the foundations of the human experience



Ima, just trying to get this concept into my own laymen's terms - so that I can understand it   (or perhaps a slightly different concept? I'm not an expert, I just see similarities to what you were saying )


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacrum  Simulacrum (plural: simulacra), from the Latin simulare, "to make like, to put on an appearance of", originally meaning a material object representing something (such as a .. painted still-life of a bowl of fruit). By the 1800s it developed a sense of a "mere" image, an empty form devoid of spirit, and descended to connote a specious or fallow representation



I'm not sure where "media overload" fits with this, but I am just thinking that 

a)  we are all so hypnotised by the media, that many of us are almost living in an unreal world
b)  that many of us have been effectively brainwashed in many directions, without depth, or true conviction, built on sand
c)  that we are therefore very easily brainwashed to a different philosophy (as was the case when USA pilots were caught by the Koreans - who knows where Hicks is at in this regard)
d)  that we should resist this media and advertising onslaught and pursue a worthwhile set of values that we have CHOSEN rather than have been forced upon us , eg moral values, attitudes to minorities, etc 
e)  even attitude to MacDonalds advertising onslaughts.   I'm sure young 3-yo kids going into a Macdonalds imagine they are going into some magical dreamland, because of the countless images in their heads from watching ads.  (Dad, can I see Ronald Macdonald ? - no kid, he's just an advertising dream.  ok - well after this, let's just go down the road and see Santa then ?? )

Here's a quick anecdote - a wise old engineer I knew - he was above this advertising nonsense. When the mention of "QA" came up = Quality Assurance, he would say - "QA ensures consistency of quality!! take for instance that splendid example MacDonalds!!  Every time you go there you get the same quality !!  .... I keep hoping , but every time it's the same damn quality !! "   (consistency does not imply good ) 

Interesting the detail you can find on Wikipedia - someone - (maybe someone with nothing better to do lol - like me) has even researched where the book should have been opened (in the Matrix)  I.E. "The Matrix has the chapter "On Nihilism" in the middle, not at the end where it is really located."    


> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation
> Baudrillard describes a world saturated by imagery, infused with media, sound, and advertising. This simulacra of the real surpasses the real world and thus becomes hyperreal, a world that is more real than real. ...
> 
> A specific analogy that Baudrillard uses is a fable derived from the work of Jorge Luis Borges. In it, a great Empire created a map that was so detailed it was as large as the Empire itself. The actual map grew and decayed as the Empire itself conquered or lost territory. When the Empire crumbled, all that was left was the map. In Baudrillard's rendition, it is the map that we are living in, the simulation of reality, and it is reality that is crumbling away from disuse.
> ...


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## insider (3 February 2007)

kgee said:
			
		

> theirs only been few times of clarity in my life and this aint one of them




Oh you poor thing... it's not your fault you get confused so easily


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## imajica (3 February 2007)

sorry if I'm a bit preoccupied with Baudrillard and his perspective on cultural theory - I wrote an analytical  thesis on his theories for my first class honours degree in Cultural Studies - just found his ideas so poignant and insightful


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## 2020hindsight (3 February 2007)

imajica said:
			
		

> sorry if I'm a bit preoccupied with Baudrillard and his perspective on cultural theory - I wrote an analytical  thesis on his theories for my first class honours degree in Cultural Studies - just found his ideas so poignant and insightful



hell m8, I'd love you to expand on what you're saying - but lol - in monosyllabic simplifaction if you could 

here's a snippet to whet your appetite   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQrotZDDsTE muppets matrix

and btw kg, you think youre the only one confused?  I just like the challenge of trying to understand - and let's not forget that Socrates was heavily into asking simple questions on complex issues.    Also Socrates lived in a world 400BC, and 2400BM,  (before Macdonalds)

another anecdote - but these days you go to places like HK or Singapore or Batam, Indonesia, and there's this big new Macdonalds, (where they demolished all these great old Chinese etc restaurants) - and lol - the tourists go there in preference to sampling the local culture.  O boy - talk about brainwashing. The beggar kids in Batam would get enough money - and then go and order a cheeseburger  - sheesh

The Macdonalds "culture" is all pervasive imho.


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## 2020hindsight (3 February 2007)

typical virtual reality game - you wonder why we're becoming more warlike    
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Cav6duAvY


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## insider (3 February 2007)

imajica said:
			
		

> sorry if I'm a bit preoccupied with Baudrillard and his perspective on cultural theory - I wrote an analytical  thesis on his theories for my first class honours degree in Cultural Studies - just found his ideas so poignant and insightful




Your explanation is perfect... you probably read books upon books yet you managed to filter it down and extract the most essential elements... I can tell when a book is thick that the author doesn't grasp the core idea very well... you managed in just sentences... bravo


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## Wysiwyg (3 February 2007)

> a) we are all so hypnotised by the media, that many of us are almost living in an unreal world




I pulled this one out because I have always thought so but could never quite define.For about a year I have cut television viewing to about 15 hours per week (mainly sport) and no longer buy newspapers/magazines.If I want to read about something I do a web search,sort of like me choosing what I want to know.Fantastic.Sometimes my mum drops a sad story on me  and I remind her that is someone elses reality and those involved will have to deal with it. I don`t want to know.
Most people lead boring lives and need the radio d.j. stuff and the front page dramas and the 6 0`clock news for direction and something to talk about.Is this what you mean? For most it is habitual but they don`t know it because everyone else does it so seems normal.

I would like you to give an example if you please `cause I know where you are coming from? Though I can see it happening I can`t pinpoint the happening.


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## insider (3 February 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> typical virtual reality game - you wonder why we're becoming more warlike
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Cav6duAvY




It's a good game... DOOM 3 scares the hell out of me


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## chops_a_must (3 February 2007)

imajica said:
			
		

> we construct our own universe through our subjective experience and develop an understanding of what it means to be 'human' through our specific culture (at the macro level) and the influence of the family unit (micro level)
> 
> the media in all its forms constructs a complex web of simulacra which both reinforces established social conventions and pushes those which have been negated to the periphery - the media simulates a dynamic, organic entity and hence becomes naturalised into the foundations of the human experience
> 
> sorry if I'm a bit preoccupied with Baudrillard and his perspective on cultural theory - I wrote an analytical thesis on his theories for my first class honours degree in Cultural Studies - just found his ideas so poignant and insightful



Cool! I have a few friends that are doing PHD's in cultural studies. It does explain your familiarity of post-modernism though. Where did you study?

I do disagree with your argument above however. Take for instance a soldier in WWI. No matter how fantastic and glorious the media promotes the war as, it isn't going to change the reality for the soldier at the front. And on the other hand, if the media presents someone as a coward, doesn't alter the fact they are suffering from shell-shock.

Because THERE ARE innate human attributes. It is why structural linguistics has purchase and is proven, even post-modernism itself is proof for structural linguistics (post-modernism argued against the validity of structural linguistics). So anyone from Derrida to Foucault, or anyone in that tradition can argue all they want, but they are largely self-refuting.

Myself, I'm more of a phenomenologist, and believe there are similarities in the way each of us view the world.

I don't think the question, "what is the meaning of life?" is a terribly fruitful one. Instead of asking what is the meaning of life? We should be separating people into two groups, yay-sayers and neigh-sayers, ala Nietzsche, by getting people to ask themselves, "would you be prepared to live your life over and over?" The yay-sayers should then ask themselves why they would like to live their lives over and over, and the neigh-sayers should ask themselves why not?


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## imajica (3 February 2007)

Hey chops! studied at Macquarie University from 94 - 99

finished with a B.A. (hons) Dip ed. taught for a little while tutoring second year students. ironically I'm now head teacher for primary education at a coaching college - it pays much better than what they were offering me at uni - funny how things work out in the end

what do you do? you seem very perceptive!

sorry if I'm rambling at the moment and my syntax is s**thouse - I've just polished off a bottle of vintage mornington peninsula pinot noir!

I guess my obsession with post modernism is indicative of the search for meaning itself - I feel inspired when I read these interpretations and therefore this creates a sense of connection between my own ego and the external world - every other person in this world constructs their own interpretations and are inspired in a multitude of different ways - which in turn provides the indefinable quality which we can all relate to as being that intrinsic nucleus of the human condition - to define it is to bastardise it into some form of cultural commodity  -  ultimate truth is always unique and constantly evolving - it is a construct, an illusion - a sleight of hand  -  the pledge, the turn and the prestige of the greatest magic trick the world has ever known


damn this pinot is good!

good night everyone


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## chops_a_must (4 February 2007)

imajica said:
			
		

> Hey chops! studied at Macquarie University from 94 - 99
> 
> finished with a B.A. (hons) Dip ed. taught for a little while tutoring second year students. ironically I'm now head teacher for primary education at a coaching college - it pays much better than what they were offering me at uni - funny how things work out in the end
> 
> ...



I study philosophy and sustainable development full time. I'm also a massage therapist, and work in my own clinic.

Although I'm glad someone clearly has the intelligence to be able to make a decision as to what scholarly tradition they most comfortably align with, I have a lot of problems with post-modernism. I am an anti-post-modernist.

This "infinite interpretation" is abused so readily that it is a joke. Especially in politics. You have Kerry interviewing Howard, and how many times do you have Kerry saying a quote from Howard, with Howard to retort: "I didn't mean it like that, how you are meant to take it is like this..."? And of course his new slant is totally different to the one he meant originally. It is this sort of eliptical argument that allowed Derrida to stay in the business.

And it is this shifting of the goal posts that makes post-modernism nothing more than empty rhetoric, and worse still, a sophistry. Sometimes I think people confuse "a very large number", with the word, "infinite".

After all, if everything IS subjective, then how are we able to communicate our ideas sensibly? How are we even able to talk about post-modernism? The implements post-modernists use to argue their case are in themselves anti-post-modernist.

And of course, hilarious happenings such as the Sokal Affair, don't help matters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

I think in the history of academia, scholars are going to look at post-modernism and cringe, and wonder what the hell we were doing!

I do like some post-modern lit though. I think it works if it is not over the top. Do you like Don Delillo? I'm reading him again at the moment.


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## 2020hindsight (4 February 2007)

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism In a nutshell, the pro-postmodernism argument runs that economic and technological conditions of our age have given rise to a decentralized, media-dominated society in which ideas are simulacra and only inter-referential representations and copies of each other, with no real original, stable or objective source for communication and meaning. Globalization, brought on by innovations in communication, manufacturing and transportation, is often cited as one force which has driven the decentralized modern life, creating a culturally pluralistic and interconnected global society lacking any single dominant center of political power, communication, or intellectual production



lacking any single dominant center of political power, communication, or intellectual production??!!
hey, what about Google?  

PS I recall Alvyn Toffler warning us in Future Shock that we'd have "wife and kids for hire" - men would get a new job in another town and simply move on over to a new life.  Nothing permanent etc.

Wysiwyg -  when I said it resembles a dream - more accurately, it would appear to be heading for a nightmare m8.


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## 2020hindsight (4 February 2007)

Wysiwyg said:
			
		

> For about a year I have cut television viewing to about 15 hours per week (mainly sport) and no longer buy newspapers/magazines.If I want to read about something I do a web search,sort of like me choosing what I want to know. Fantastic.



Wysiwyg -  when I said it resembles a dream - more accurately, it would appear to be heading for a nightmare m8. But I agree with you entirely 
110%
(except maybe I force myself to try to keep up to date with the gruesome stuff as well) 
a) too many people could say everything they know they learnt on TV.   
b) TV is "chewing gum for the eyes", except for the occasional doco I suppose
c) the commercial news is a joke - compare the three-item grabs called "news updates" with the PM radio program - or the web for that matter, but radio is better
d) kids start to see what life is about when they go on summer camp etc, real interaction with real people - and get away from the TV
e) here I have to admit that I don't mind watching the "Survivor" show - just to see how the various personalities are getting along / clashing etc, leaders emerging etc - fascinating.  Shame there has to be so much back-stabbing, but they seem to end up friends despite it. Character building stuff for them all usually.
f) you mention sport mate, - too many Norms out there  - including me, lol, but at least I do City to Surf once a year.  I have mates still playing veteran's field hockey - travelling the world even, but then again they can afford it   
g) as they say, sport on TV is all about 16 million Aussies (you and I included?) who need the exercise sitting on their bums watching 22 people who dont.
 
h) In American Samoa, back 20 odd years, the USA had installed an education system where the schools were all subjected to the same TV broadcast each day - (bit like outback school of the air I guess - but here the kids are more motivated ).  Over there, the idea of learning was ranked just below watching Bugs Bunny - turn it on, turn it off, who cares. Summary nothing beats good old fashioned person to person communication.


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 February 2007)

*I study philosophy and sustainable development full time. I'm also a massage therapist, and work in my own clinic.*
From Chops today

I don't mean to pick on you Chops, but does anybody with a meaning to life out there do a regular job, farmer, carpenter, plumber, doctor, garbo???  Last person I'd talk to about lighting a barbeque is a fireman.  Garpal


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## 2020hindsight (4 February 2007)

Garpal, there was an old quote somewhere - "the best preacher is an ant, and he says nothing at all" - but, to be fair, no ones's preaching, and this isnt about preaching, and I'm personally enjoying the stuff that chops and ima post, - although I have this distant feeling that it ain't gonna affect my particular life much.   meanwhile, here's a few more quotes.

My Farmer cousin's philosophy:- I don't care which side my bread is buttered on, because I usually eat both sides anyway

my Carpenter cousin's philosophy:- Carpentering is what I know - all that stuff I don't know I call Philosophy.

my Plumber cousin's philosophy:- I used to think heaps of useless stuff about soldering pipes, then I became a philosopher. 

my Garbo cousin's philosophy:- Philosopher's have only interpreted the world, the thing however is to change it. (he's been reading Karl Marx again )

PS  the philosophy of one century is the common sense of the next.  I have this philosophy that it's getting warmer ?

PS Chops:- Kant (1724 - 1804) Two things fill the mind with ever increasing wonder and awe - the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me.


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## chops_a_must (4 February 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:
			
		

> *I study philosophy and sustainable development full time. I'm also a massage therapist, and work in my own clinic.*
> From Chops today
> 
> I don't mean to pick on you Chops, but does anybody with a meaning to life out there do a regular job, farmer, carpenter, plumber, doctor, garbo???  Last person I'd talk to about lighting a barbeque is a fireman.  Garpal



Yes. I'd say the people that get the most satisfaction in life are the ones that do things for others, both in their working lives and in their private lives. Personally, that is my philosophy, my meaning in life, to do things to make others happy, in whatever way I can.

Why should the occupation that someone has, determine if they have a meaning in life or not?

As Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."


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## constable (4 February 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Yes. I'd say the people that get the most satisfaction in life are the ones that do things for others, both in their working lives and in their private lives. Personally, that is my philosophy, my meaning in life, to do things to make others happy, in whatever way I can.
> 
> Why should the occupation that someone has, determine if they have a meaning in life or not?
> 
> As Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."




My "old man" has been a psych nurse/social worker for the last 25 years, (mostly within the aboriginal community and of the last several years working for a volunteer assoc. ASCA (victims will no this one)) Now i know this has brought him much job and personal adress/fulfilment ,but he has basically given his life to help others. However from a different perspective, his personal and family life have suffered for his dedication. Paradoxical or not, people who have extreme traits can and will be extremely sucessfull however for every positive in that life , there will be a negative within that life . 
Moral of the story.......is to find a balance. 
HARMONINITY now thats the secret of life!


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 February 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Yes. I'd say the people that get the most satisfaction in life are the ones that do things for others, both in their working lives and in their private lives. Personally, that is my philosophy, my meaning in life, to do things to make others happy, in whatever way I can.
> 
> Why should the occupation that someone has, determine if they have a meaning in life or not?
> 
> As Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."




Thanks Chops, a generous response, I felt a bit bad after posting the above, as I felt it it might have hurt you, but also felt compelled to say it.

I do find though that getting the opinions of people in other occupations apart from philosophy and political activism/environment/sustainability , very refreshing.

Perhaps the meaning of life is not to cause oneself or others pain, a bit Schopenhauery / Newmany,   take care Garpal


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## chops_a_must (4 February 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:
			
		

> Thanks Chops, a generous response, I felt a bit bad after posting the above, as I felt it it might have hurt you, but also felt compelled to say it.
> 
> I do find though that getting the opinions of people in other occupations apart from philosophy and political activism/environment/sustainability , very refreshing.
> 
> Perhaps the meaning of life is not to cause oneself or others pain, a bit Schopenhauery / Newmany,   take care Garpal



Yes yes yes. Typical Australian attitude. Beat up on people that have read a book in the last year... or can count past ten.

I think you'll find people in those related occupations to be in an incredibly tiny minority of the Australian population... Barely anyone one is interested in Philosophy here so I really don't understand.

Schopenhauer thought that life was pain regardless, not about causing oneself or others pain. It was the hope that this would change, be otherwise, that willed us to do things, an thus eternally tormented us. The meaning of life is to avoid pain? Quite possibly, check it out on a lab rat. Give them a shock, give them a pellet. Are they likely to repeat the behaviour that earns them one or the other?


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## Wysiwyg (4 February 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Yes yes yes. Typical Australian attitude. Beat up on people that have read a book in the last year... or can count past ten.
> 
> I think you'll find people in those related occupations to be in an incredibly tiny minority of the Australian population... Barely anyone one is interested in Philosophy here so I really don't understand.
> 
> Schopenhauer thought that life was pain regardless, not about causing oneself or others pain. It was the hope that this would change, be otherwise, that willed us to do things, an thus eternally tormented us. The meaning of life is to avoid pain? Quite possibly, check it out on a lab rat. Give them a shock, give them a pellet. Are they likely to repeat the behaviour that earns them one or the other?




If there was no pain then there would be no pleasure (or painlessness).
The light that illuminates the vicars doorway also illuminates the  prostitute on the street.(I pinched that line)


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## 2020hindsight (4 February 2007)

:topic the following poem by a lady I know who has a gr8 sense of humour 

"I wish i was a fascinating bitch, I'd never be poor I'd always be rich 
Outside my door I'd hang a red light, I'd sleep all day and I'd work all night 
Once a month I'd take a holiday, to make my customers wild
Oh I wish I was a fascinating bitch, instead of an innocent child "   

Chops , that theory about preference for avoiding pain -  don't try it on pommie rats  - after all half the pommie politicians seem to be quite keen on whippings and stuff - buga the pellet


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## imajica (4 February 2007)

pain/pleasure

good/evil

it seems that binary dualisms still form the basis of our understanding of ourselves and of culture. 

if pain had never existed then pleasure would be impossible to define - in a binary dualistic world - in the realm of the symbolic - 'opposites' constitute each other - evil is necessary for there to be an entrenched cultural understanding of what constitutes the very essence of being 'good' 

you could say that these polar opposites are two sides of the same coin - forged together to ensure each other's certainty within the symbolic order


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 February 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Yes yes yes. Typical Australian attitude. Beat up on people that have read a book in the last year... or can count past ten.
> 
> I think you'll find people in those related occupations to be in an incredibly tiny minority of the Australian population... Barely anyone one is interested in Philosophy here so I really don't understand.
> 
> Schopenhauer thought that life was pain regardless, not about causing oneself or others pain. It was the hope that this would change, be otherwise, that willed us to do things, an thus eternally tormented us. The meaning of life is to avoid pain? Quite possibly, check it out on a lab rat. Give them a shock, give them a pellet. Are they likely to repeat the behaviour that earns them one or the other?




Agree Chops that this is an Australian attitude, its served us well though, through 2 world wars, The Depression, Korea , Vietnam, Whitlam and Fraser,  and the Political correctness of the 80's and 90's. One common man is a better arbiter of meaning than a thousand politically correct apparchniks, whether they be Tories or Lefties, or Sustainables, etc.etc.etc..


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## chops_a_must (5 February 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:
			
		

> Agree Chops that this is an Australian attitude, its served us well though, through 2 world wars, The Depression, Korea , Vietnam, Whitlam and Fraser,  and the Political correctness of the 80's and 90's. One common man is a better arbiter of meaning than a thousand politically correct apparchniks, whether they be Tories or Lefties, or Sustainables, etc.etc.etc..



Lol! You seriously think I am politically correct? I am sexist, chauvinistic and racist, just to name a few! I said what I was studying, not who I am.

But I guess this is why they call us the lucky country. Lucky that we haven't f*cked up what we have! But when we look at it, Australia has been advanced by the brilliance of a few, not by the urges of the many.

It really doesn't matter if someone is a common man or no, all that matters is they question and are inquisitive.


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## Garpal Gumnut (5 February 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Lol! You seriously think I am politically correct? I am sexist, chauvinistic and racist, just to name a few! I said what I was studying, not who I am.
> 
> But I guess this is why they call us the lucky country. Lucky that we haven't f*cked up what we have! But when we look at it, Australia has been advanced by the brilliance of a few, not by the urges of the many.
> 
> It really doesn't matter if someone is a common man or no, all that matters is they question and are inquisitive.




Sorry chops for calling you PC. Its a low slur and too easily bandied about. Garpal


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## Seneca60BC (5 February 2007)

I found the meaning of life defined on an art piece that I was viewing at the vienna national museum of art - in latin :  'nil omni' was written on the corner of his piece by the artist.

It means : All In Vain

So what ever you do in life, eventually it will be all in vain.

Cheers


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## 2020hindsight (5 February 2007)

Seneca60BC said:
			
		

> It means : All In Vain



no hypodermics around I hope 
"this too shall pass" as buddha used to say - similar I guess


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## Garpal Gumnut (5 February 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> no hypodermics around I hope
> "this too shall pass" as buddha used to say - similar I guess





Being in love is never having to say you are negative

Garpal


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## 2020hindsight (5 February 2007)

here's a coupla quotes Garpal - and btw, your last post is one of the few I'd agree with lol.
1. It's easy to understand love at first sight, but how do you explain love after two people have been looking at each other for years.
2. many a man has fallen in love with a girl in a light so dim he would not have chosen a suit by it  - Maurice Chevalier ( and vice versa I guess )

lol here's one from the archives..
"I never loved another person the way I loved myself " Mae West


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## Nifty (9 February 2007)

You know,there are academics who teach philosophy,but when you analyze what they teach,they are nothing more than philosophical historians.
If you want to teach philosophpy,obviously there is a predominant element of historical philosophical thought that would form the groundwork of the studies, but how many lecturers in philosophy have there own unique or additional philosophical view?


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## Dukey (9 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> You know,there are academics who teach philosophy,but when you analyze what they teach,they are nothing more than philosophical historians.
> If you want to teach philosophpy,obviously there is a predominant element of historical philosophical thought that would form the groundwork of the studies, but how many lecturers in philosophy have there own unique or additional philosophical view?




Quite true I think Nifty ... but to quote my friend Bob Dylan ... "If there's an original thought out there I could use it... right now."
I don't think it's easy to come up with an original philosophy - cause whatever you're thinking - someones thunk it before and probably written the book.
I like Robert Pirsigs Philosophy quite alot - he wrote "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" then spent 20 odd years formulating his own philosophy - but still derivative to some extent. He presented it in "Lila" - his second book. _It's called the 'Metaphysics of Quality'  (MOQ). _
Quite original & fits OK with my pantheist leanings. go see www.moq.org


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## chops_a_must (9 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> You know,there are academics who teach philosophy,but when you analyze what they teach,they are nothing more than philosophical historians.
> If you want to teach philosophpy,obviously there is a predominant element of historical philosophical thought that would form the groundwork of the studies, but how many lecturers in philosophy have there own unique or additional philosophical view?



As a philosophy student, I'd say about half and half. But the original thinkers still have an exceptional knowledge of philosophical history.

But it depends on the extent to which you take it. Descartes, one of the most exceptional "thinkers" of the modern world, was a "neo-platonist".

The lecturers with highly original thoughts and arguments tend to be very weird and delightful as well. Great fun to listen to them.


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2007)

Nifty said:
			
		

> You know,there are academics who teach philosophy,but when you analyze what they teach,they are nothing more than philosophical historians.
> If you want to teach philosophpy,obviously there is a predominant element of historical philosophical thought that would form the groundwork of the studies, but how many lecturers in philosophy have there own unique or additional philosophical view?



nifty, you are taking the easy position of a critic here.  - like, one could ask,  - give us an example of a unique or additional philosophy   

hard to be original when it's all been said before.- 
would it be fair to say that the state of current affairs is something that even the early Greek philosphers could never have envisaged in their wildest nightmares?


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## Wysiwyg (9 February 2007)

What about imagination....isn`t that how we got where we are now?
Surely there is someone imagining something different now, as there has been through history .


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2007)

about the only original philosophy to come out of the last few years is that " all extremists should be shot!"


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## Dukey (9 February 2007)

Yeah - I'm sure there's plenty of original imagination going on - some of it no doubt quite scary!!! but Philosophy is much more than mere imagination...
Philosophy is..... 
(over to you chops...)


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## redandgreen (9 February 2007)

"we are born for no reason, continue through weakness and die by accident .......it is maningless to be born, and it is meaningless to die........"
a more existential moment at the end of a hard day


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## 2020hindsight (9 February 2007)

"What are the alternatives to philosophy? - barbarism?  mad magazine?" Alfred E Neuman

"Until philosophers are kings .. cities will never cease from ill , nor the human race" ...(Plato 427 - 347 BC)..  

then again..."Philosophy : unintelligible answers to insoluble problems" - Henry Adams 

PS Red and Green - "We may have been born for no reason - but plenty have died for a reason"


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## chops_a_must (10 February 2007)

Dukey said:
			
		

> Yeah - I'm sure there's plenty of original imagination going on - some of it no doubt quite scary!!! but Philosophy is much more than mere imagination...
> Philosophy is.....
> (over to you chops...)



I have this brilliant quote somewhere... and I can't find it. It has been annoying the hell out of me since you posted this. I've looked everywhere! GRRRRR!!!

It goes something like this, (obviously written a lot better than I have here):
"Philosophy is the retention of a child like questioning to everything in life."

Philosophy literally means, "love of wisdom", but to me it is about getting behind appearances, confirming them or denying them etc. Never accepting anything as a concrete fact, but acquiring knowledge and wisdom along the way.


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## Wysiwyg (10 February 2007)

Are those that are denied right of passage through life ever compensated? If you are lucky.

What about the Will Shakespeare, AS YOU LIKE IT, ACT II SCENE VII


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## coyotte (10 February 2007)

The obvious meaning is that there is no meaning:

We (all creatures great and small) just happen to be at this point of the evolutionary story.

After we have wiped ourselves out with global climate change, evolution will probably go off in a different track.

Humanity along with its intelligence??? -- is going to be the shortest experiment yet --- that's what we get for arrogance.


Cheers


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## Bobby (10 February 2007)

coyotte said:
			
		

> The obvious meaning is that there is no meaning:
> 
> We (all creatures great and small) just happen to be at this point of the evolutionary story.
> 
> ...




I liked your post, and I'm hard to please   

Regards Bob.


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## violet (11 February 2007)

transit said:
			
		

> Life is about acquiring stuff, aquiring more stuff, reorganising stuff, storing stuff, acquiring even more stuff, buying a bigger place to accommodate stuff, getting rid of stuff, buying a smaller place because you haven't got as much stuff and then you die with stuff all.




I like this one!

Good question!


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## weird (11 February 2007)

I wonder what the late Fred Hollows would have to say about all this ... seems like it is not that hard to find meaning when one looks outside himself as being the center of the universe.


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## Bobby (11 February 2007)

weird said:
			
		

> I wonder what the late Fred Hollows would have to say about all this ... seems like it is not that hard to find meaning when one looks outside himself as being the center of the universe.



 Yep Weird, that realy sh*ted me when Fred died ?   

Bad call GOD !!!

Bob.


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## Wysiwyg (11 February 2007)

weird said:
			
		

> I wonder what the late Fred Hollows would have to say about all this ... seems like it is not that hard to find meaning when one looks outside himself as being the center of the universe.




It`s hard to give unselfishly..not expecting in return..very few do so.


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## weird (11 February 2007)

The funny thing is, I have yet to read the single agreed upon scientific reason for why we need "sleep" ... seems like another one of those things that there are many theories about.

Just to ensure I am not posting crap, I did a google for "why do we need sleep", and the results include  "while we do not know", "unsure", "many theories" ... etc

You have to wonder why science can not easily answer the more basic questions (or alteast curb the confusion).


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## weird (11 February 2007)

Back to the original topic, a very good book I read quite some time ago was,

Viktor Frankl - Man's Search for Meaning

this site has some good quotes,

http://www.geocities.com/~webwinds/frankl/quotes.htm

On Discovering the Meaning of Life

"The meaning of our existence is not invented by ourselves, but rather detected." p.157

"What matters, therefore, is not the meaning of life in general, but rather the specific meaning of a person's life at a given moment." p.171

"We can discover this meaning in life in three different ways: (1) by doing a deed; (2) by experiencing a value; and (3) by suffering." p.176


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## Sean K (16 October 2007)

Part 6

So what is the Eudaimonia that I am searching for? What will create the ‘flourishing of the heart’ so described by Aristotle? A euphoric happiness that makes life wonderful? 

First and foremost to me, it is achieving quality of existence. That means an understanding, appreciation and respect of all nature. Watching a brilliant butterfly dance under a tropical jungle canopy, or diving on a colourful reef teeming with thousands of tropical fish, provide a sense of awe. This appreciation for all of nature fills me with contented wonder, and happiness in its own right. The complexity of how the earth exists as an incredible tapestry of interdependent organisms, created through evolution is inspiring.  

Appreciation of nature makes me recognise my place in it and guides me in how I should act in my environment to be a positive influence in it. Not just a passive spectator, but a contributor to its beauty. This is about being the best person that I can be. It is about trying to uphold the virtues that I feel so important in maintaining my relationships within my environment and culture. Some of these include: honesty, respect, integrity, calmness, rationality, objectivity, responsibility, and mateship. It is about developing my knowledge and understanding of the world around me, including its people, to the highest level possible. It is about always searching for the truth, and not being blinded by the negative primal instincts of the survival animal such as selfishness, or deceit. 

I do not pretend to have achieved my perfect eudaimonic existence because I understand the animal in me is a very difficult beast to tame. It is not tamed, and never will be. 

I doubt I will ever be able to achieve what I might call a perfect state of contented eudaimonic happiness because of this, but it’s a battle I’m determined to fight.


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## Gurgler (20 October 2007)

I would also add tolerance to your list of virtues as the world rarely reflects the utopia we seek.

I don't know how it looks at street level in Lima, but here in China, there is very little appreciation of nature apparent in this seething over-populated land where a survival of the (financial) fittest appears to playing out, currently. 

There is more of just about everything here (including billionaires, I heard last week - now more than the US!) and it is this sheer bulk which drives and motivates a lot of what goes on here. Certainly there are 'wonders' to observe (greay Wall, Terracotta warriors, etc.) but as I look out my window, I see the haze of pollution, streets full of people struggling to eke out existence with scant regard for those around them.

So, thus the need to tolerate - things could be better, and maybe at some stage in the future. Others may not behave as we would like them to however, that should not distract us from our course.

Above all we should enjoy the journey as much as we can, for the destination is just that - a goal to aim for. I think this is what you are also saying?

Cheers

Greg


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## Sean K (21 October 2007)

Greg, I'm not too sure about tolerance. 

Tolerance of what? Stupidity? Idocy? GWB? Sadaam? The Taliban?

Tolerance may actually lead to disaster. 

I think I know what you mean however. Could you expand?

Appreciation of the environment is right up there with enjoying life. It's the eppreciation of the moment, and having respect and understanding for the how and why we are here.

In regard to the journey, perhaps the journey may be the destination!!! 

I think this is what I tried to allude to in trying to find eudaimonia. I'm not sure if it's possible, but I am on the path. That's what's most important IMO.


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