# Trading Environment



## mickson (26 March 2008)

Hi All

I recently migrated to Sydney and continue to be involved with a proprietary trading firm I founded. I am currently trading from home, and interact with my colleagues in a different time zone mainly via email.

What I have found being in a new country without my familiar network of friends  and work colleagues is that it can be quite lonely. I have always had the vibrant energy of fellow traders around me, and now it is just me and myself.

I would be most appreciative if someone could let me know if there are any office setups that are geared towards traders.

Thanks


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

Good dudes at http://www.propex.net.au/ which are in Sydney. 

Not sure if your after a trading arcade type setup or straight prop shop like Propex.


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

By the way welcome. Where/what was the prop shop you founded?


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## julius (26 March 2008)

trembling - do you know of any similiar set ups in Brisbane ?


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

julius said:


> trembling - do you know of any similiar set ups in Brisbane ?




No. There isn't much around in Oz. I know that Propex has a few offsite traders but you have to have a bloody good record for them to take you on offsite. Then if you did would you want to trade with them??


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## MRC & Co (26 March 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> No. There isn't much around in Oz. I know that Propex has a few offsite traders but you have to have a bloody good record for them to take you on offsite. Then if you did would you want to trade with them??




Exactly, if you were that good, you wouldn't need to work for them!

Sounds like mickson is more after a trading arcade, as he owns his own prop firm already.

Would be interested to know the same questions as TH.


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Exactly, if you were that good, you wouldn't need to work for them!
> 
> Sounds like mickson is more after a trading arcade, as he owns his own prop firm already.
> 
> Would be interested to know the same questions as TH.




No I actually looked at working WITH them a while ago. There are many advantages to using a prop shop. Plenty good reason that go beyond splitting your profit with them. But to trade offsite you need to be able to move BIG volume by the time you are at that point the only advantage is cheap brokerage and depending on trading style that may not be worth it.


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## MRC & Co (26 March 2008)

Yes, I mean to work offsite, if you were THAT good, wouldnt you prefer to trade your own capital (you should surely have a lot) and have complete freedom.  Depends on the individual I guess.

No doubt there is a STACK of good reasons to work for them!  Including the experience to work with ACTUAL (not fake), top notch, successful traders!

I'm glad to see these actual firms exist!  Too many making $$ out of commissions with little ability to actually give successful advice!  

For clarification, you trade only their capital if you work for them, at the actual physical location?  What is the split between profits?  Surely, if you are using their capital, they would get a larger split yeh?  Can you also trade your own capital at the same time?

I would be interested in working for a firm like this, once I got my futures trading and strategies more complete (but would be hard to get in yeh?).  At the moment, I have a few, but need more forward testing.


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

You trade their capital. I'm not sure they would want me to give out the Financial details here but I got to say its very good. If you are interested and have a ongoing record give them a shot. But don't waste yours or their time unless you got something to show them (a years record??) and its all intraday trading.


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## MRC & Co (26 March 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> You trade their capital. I'm not sure they would want me to give out the Financial details here but I got to say its very good. If you are interested and have a ongoing record give them a shot. But don't waste yours or their time unless you got something to show them (a years record??) and its all intraday trading.




Fair enough.

I have an ongoing profitable record with consistent trading for only 2 financial years so far.  Before that, trading was very sparce, profitable, but not much actual experience.  

I also barely trade intraday, but am planning dipping my fingers into the pot in the not so distant future.  Only index futures to begin with.  

Do you know which methods these guys use to trade intraday?  Gaps, nonrepeatar, price/time, scalping etc?


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I have an ongoing profitable record with consistent trading for only 2 financial years so far.  Before that, trading was very sparce, profitable, but not much actual experience.
> 
> ...




They don't tell you how to trade or what market to trade but its all Futures. The idea would be you have a profitable daytrading system that you want to scale up or would benefit from their cheap brokerage. They will help you with risk management etc


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## julius (26 March 2008)

I think the pro atmosphere at a place like that would do incredible things for your trading account...

day trading is a lonely game


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## MRC & Co (26 March 2008)

Ok, thanks TH.

No doubt you would learn more than you could ever learn yourself in a place like this!  Its the big thing Im lacking at the moment, a mentor, hard to find any in Canberra!  Takes a lot longer and is a lot harder to learn everything by yourself!

_"day trading is a lonely game"_ - ha ha, hence why ASF is the nest of a few day traders!


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

julius said:


> I think the pro atmosphere at a place like that would do incredible things for your trading account...
> 
> day trading is a lonely game




Yeah I spent 2 weeks there and it was fun. Far better than sitting in a room of your house all day.

I didn't get the gig but it was the best failure of my trading career thus far. As the trial went by I got worse & worse. After having a good look at my effort I realised I wasn't a position day trader like I went to them as but a scalper. I have hardly had a down month since that time  In fact I haven't if I take full months trading only


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## MRC & Co (26 March 2008)

Good work TH, impressive!

Did you find as the days went on, the pressure made you make brash decisions?

Gathering you had a successful position day trading history to show them before you got your trial?


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

Yeah my record was OK up to then. 

During the trial I think I made 40 points each day for the first 4 days which is pretty good trading 1 contract but by the end of the second week I had a heap of trouble hanging on to trades and also entering trades. So I was going nowhere. Also I only had 2 weeks to make good as the offer was to stay in their trading room on the sim for however long it took but I simply couldn't afford to stay in Sydney any longer (I live in Melb) so the pressure was on. Bit of a gun to the head.

I now know that inconsistency is a signal that your not trading to "your" niche.


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## mickson (26 March 2008)

Guys,

Thanks so much for all the feedback, I just joined the site and it is great to know there is good community out there.

I will try out what you guys suggested, I am fortunately in a position to trade my own capital. Will tell you guys my story another time.

Mickson


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## MRC & Co (26 March 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yeah my record was OK up to then.
> 
> During the trial I think I made 40 points each day for the first 4 days which is pretty good trading 1 contract but by the end of the second week I had a heap of trouble hanging on to trades and also entering trades. So I was going nowhere. Also I only had 2 weeks to make good as the offer was to stay in their trading room on the sim for however long it took but I simply couldn't afford to stay in Sydney any longer (I live in Melb) so the pressure was on. Bit of a gun to the head.
> 
> I now know that inconsistency is a signal that your not trading to "your" niche.




Yeh, time limits make it near impossible!  

I also agree, definately important to learn your own niche!  One of the most critical aspects I beleive!  Still finding mine!

So you were on a simulator?  How was the trial determined then?  You could stay as long as you want, learn, train and keep going until they beleived you were good for the gig?  But you had to fund yourself in the meantime?

Interested to find out your story Mickson.  

Cheers


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## Trembling Hand (26 March 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> So you were on a simulator?  How was the trial determined then?




What do you mean? have you never traded a live sim?



MRC & Co said:


> You could stay as long as you want, learn, train and keep going until they beleived you were good for the gig?  But you had to fund yourself in the meantime?




Yeah I wasn't far off but as it turned out the two biggest things it showed me was 1. I wasn't far off 2. what way I should trade. So it was a really good exercise just not for the reason I had hope for when I went up there. 

Matthew O'Brein the risk manager has been very helpful since then. If your looking for a trading gig like I said if you have some results these people are well worth contacting.


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## MRC & Co (26 March 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> What do you mean? have you never traded a live sim?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, however, I thought they may want you to trade some of your own portfolio to add in the psychology element.  

A trading gig like this would be ideal, however, definately need to gain a lot more experience with futures. 

Thanks for the info.


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## julius (26 March 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> I now know that inconsistency is a signal that your not trading to "your" niche.




TH would you be able to expand on this ?


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## mickson (27 March 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Sounds like mickson is more after a trading arcade, as he owns his own prop firm already.




I have managed to make contact with 2 operations that seem to offer what I am looking for. The term trading arcade is a new term to me, but I understand what it represents, do you have a few names for me in the Sydney region. If I am exploring opportunities I might as well cover as many as possible.

Thanks


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## MRC & Co (27 March 2008)

Hi Mickson,

Unfortunately, the only one I have read about is the one mentioned (however, its not a trading arcade).

I know a couple of day-traders in Sydney, but none work out of a trading arcade, only from home.

TH may know more.


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## mickson (27 March 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Sounds like mickson is more after a trading arcade, as he owns his own prop firm already.




I have managed to make contact with 2 operations that seem to offer what I am looking for. The term trading arcade is a new term to me, but I understand what it represents, do you have a few names for me in the Sydney region? If I am exploring opportunities I might as well cover as many as possible.

Thanks


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## mickson (27 March 2008)

Oops


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## Joe Blow (27 March 2008)

mickson said:


> Oops




Hi Mickson,

I have removed the unnecessary 







> tags from your two previous posts. Please note that for 20 minutes after you have submitted a post you are able to edit it to make any corrections. Simply click on the 'Edit' button which you will find located next to the 'Quote' button. Although it disappears after 20 minutes so be quick it you need to make any alterations to your posts.


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## Trembling Hand (27 March 2008)

julius said:


> TH would you be able to expand on this ?




Have started a thread about this here,

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=275640&posted=1#post275640


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## Trembling Hand (29 March 2008)

Here is another one I just remembered. Mostly options market making but I think also some prop set up as well. In Sydney of course 

http://www.tibra.com.au/home_tt.html


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## mickson (29 March 2008)

Thanks Mate!

By the way my close family live in Melbourne; my wife, kids and I went to spend the easter weekend there. Cool place.


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## whitey1982 (27 June 2008)

anyone had more than a couple of weeks time at propex?

i've had a couple of mates that have worked there for about a year or so, but moved on pretty quickly. given 10k initial capital and a weekly allowance that doesn't really suffice. 

pretty difficult putting on trades that 'have' to be winners to pay the mortgage. they both now work with me in a dealing room at an ib, and words to the effect of 'chop shop' were used to describe propex. sounds like a good gig initially, but wondering if anyone as any thoughts on them?


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## whitey1982 (27 June 2008)

try the other option market makers as well. they have cash desks too which prop. obviously market making is the core business, but a couple of them definitely emplore cash strategies on top of traditional market making.

optiver, imc, suquehanna, timberhill, liquid capital.


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## Trembling Hand (27 June 2008)

whitey1982 said:


> i've had a couple of mates that have worked there for about a year or so, but moved on pretty quickly. given 10k initial capital and a weekly allowance that doesn't really suffice.





Really. That doesn't sound like the propex that I know. When was it and what were they trading(markets).

Is the IB trading room a trade execution desk or a prop trading desk with profit split?


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## whitey1982 (27 June 2008)

yeh, just broking mate. tedious at times and real quiet atm, but what can u do. spend half my time punting the markets myself on the mobile. 

so, going from a trading gig to broking is an interesting move, but they've told me they're pretty glad they did. i guess more stability at an ib, but i'm not too sure. 

they were trading spi and hang seng.


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## whitey1982 (27 June 2008)

would have been roughly two years ago


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## Trembling Hand (27 June 2008)

whitey1982 said:


> would have been roughly two years ago




That's around the time I was sniffing around there. But no one was trading HSI after getting stitched up with some dodgy results on a sim that showed slow fills. they looked profitable then when they went live they got all messed up. But they had gone by then.

I couple of guys here are looking at having a stint there soon so they will no doubt be able to shed some light on things.

Tells us won't you when your desk sets a new all time low volume from clients. No doubt that will be the bottom when everyone has given up!!


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## MRC & Co (27 June 2008)

whitey1982 said:


> yeh, just broking mate.




Broking or trade execution?  Aren't they completely different?

Brokers are the glorified salesmen and execution the guys who actually execute buys and sells, generally on predefined parameters?

I have looked into both (actually came close to taking an overnight futures trading position, but from what I could make out, was really just execution), stockbroking, not sure about the salesman type of things.  Managed funds would be a lot more interesting, especially where you can also short (also nearly got a job in a company which does this, but didn't have my RG146 complete which was apparently a requirement).  

Have also talked to Propex and am waiting for them to get back in contact, they said it will be within the next few weeks, but better hurry, have a couple of other nice names offering me jobs which will look good on the resume.


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## whitey1982 (28 June 2008)

no, execution/broking - same thing. well, in the environment i work anyway.

managed funds - tough to get into and a long path. most come from an analyst background. you'd want ur honours/masters at a minimum and be looking at doing ur cfa too.


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## MRC & Co (28 June 2008)

whitey1982 said:


> no, execution/broking - same thing. well, in the environment i work anyway.
> 
> managed funds - tough to get into and a long path. most come from an analyst background. you'd want ur honours/masters at a minimum and be looking at doing ur cfa too.




Yeh, I know brokers do a bit of execution, but there are also trading desks, which simply execute from what I am aware (usually derivatives)..........

Managed funds, yeh, DAMN hard to get into, though I do have a pretty good contarct in the field, but I haven't heard masters or further qualifications above honours are overly important.  At least with companies such as AMP, QIC etc and these guys are huge in the managed funds industry!


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## MRC & Co (28 June 2008)

whitey1982 said:


> try the other option market makers as well. they have cash desks too which prop. obviously market making is the core business, but a couple of them definitely emplore cash strategies on top of traditional market making.
> 
> optiver, imc, suquehanna, timberhill, liquid capital.




The vast majority of prop is quant though these days, right?  Other than the MMs.......

Except those dodgy places which call themselves prop, but make you bring some of your own cash to the table!


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## Nick Radge (28 June 2008)

Fusion derivatives is another one. Most of the old Propex boys went across to Fusion awhile ago. I play golf with a number of them and they're all very happy with it. I also know the guys that run Fusion so if you want a name and contact just PM me.

Nick


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## Trembling Hand (11 July 2008)

I see Propex are advertising for more trainee traders.

http://seek.com.au/showjob.asp?jobid=13298086


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## MRC & Co (11 July 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> I see Propex are advertising for more trainee traders.
> 
> http://seek.com.au/showjob.asp?jobid=13298086




Yeh, it's that time of year again.


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## Trembling Hand (11 July 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Yeh, it's that time of year again.




You going to have a go?


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## MRC & Co (11 July 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> You going to have a go?




Yeh.  Well I am not applying through SEEK, spoken to them a couple times over the last few months (since this thread first came up).  They said they will contact me once they have short-listed people.  So see what happens......

Any others here having a crack?


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## jersey10 (11 July 2008)

I would love to do this but don't have the skills yet.  How much training do they give you?  The advertisement seems to imply anyone off the street who has a serious interest in trading and is disciplined, hard working, etc. can be trained from zero knowledge by their expert traders.  From the previous posts in this thread, particularly from TH's experience there a while back, it seems that is definitely not the case.


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## Trembling Hand (11 July 2008)

jersey10 said:


> I would love to do this but don't have the skills yet.  How much training do they give you?  The advertisement seems to imply anyone off the street who has a serious interest in trading and is disciplined, hard working, etc. can be trained from zero knowledge by their expert traders.  From the previous posts in this thread, particularly from TH's experience there a while back, it seems that is definitely not the case.




No it is the case. they are looking for newbies to train. Not experienced traders.


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## jersey10 (11 July 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> No it is the case. they are looking for newbies to train. Not experienced traders.




So let me get this right.  If i answered the ad and was accepted they would pay me a wage while they taught me how to trade futures and would supply me with all the software, hardware, education etc. for free from an office in the Sydney CBD?  It all sounds to good to be true!

How long would the education phase take before they let you loose trading their capital?

What do they get out of it?


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## Trembling Hand (11 July 2008)

jersey10 said:


> So let me get this right.  If i answered the ad and was accepted they would pay me a wage while they taught me how to trade futures and would supply me with all the software, hardware, education etc. for free from an office in the Sydney CBD?  It all sounds to good to be true!
> 
> How long would the education phase take before they let you loose trading their capital?
> 
> What do they get out of it?




A very small wage while you train.

Once you go live isn't free you have desk fees etc.

I think it takes AT LEAST 6 months. You would have to ask.

They hopefully get a profitable trader out of it just like any biz training staff. If they don't you get shown the door.


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## jersey10 (11 July 2008)

If this was offered in Brisbane i would be thinking very seriously about doing it.  Anybody know of any firms that offer this sort of thing in Brisbane?


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## MRC & Co (11 July 2008)

I don't think they will mind me talking about it, as it was shared without any mention of privacy.

But the wage is small, about a thousand a month I believe, the training program is 6 months and as stated, you learn F/A, T/A and psychology. 

They are after 'talented' (not sure what is meant by that) individuals, who are passionate about the markets and preferably have previous training experience (think that was all stated in THs link).

It is in the Sydney CBD, so if you can sustain yourself for 6 months and want to take the risk of spending 6 months training, while dipping into your own pockets to sustain yourself, for the shot of becoming a professional trader and trading with others who can actually find an edge in the market and having an account to do it for a living, then that is the choice you have to make.  

Not to mention, the opportunity cost of 6 months in which you could be doing something else and earning a much better wage.  

As with everything, always a trade-off, really depends how much you are willing to risk and how much you want it.

Cheers


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## professor_frink (11 July 2008)

jersey10 said:


> If this was offered in Brisbane i would be thinking very seriously about doing it.  Anybody know of any firms that offer this sort of thing in Brisbane?




you wanna be a trader then location shouldn't matter too much. It shouldn't be too hard to get to sydney if you get an interview with them.

I kinda wished I knew these kinds of places existed when I was first starting to get into trading. I'd be have been all over these guys like a cheap suit trying to get a piece of the action.


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## MRC & Co (11 July 2008)

I agree Professor, if you are really serious about trading, 6 months with these guys (regardless of outcome) would be sure to gain quiet a bit of knowledge, I would be prepared to move cities to give it a try.

You still thinking of applying TH (not for the training program of course), but for an actual position and account?


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## jersey10 (12 July 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Yeh, it's that time of year again.




The new financial year do you mean??  Do they usually take on new trainees each July?


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## MRC & Co (12 July 2008)

jersey10 said:


> The new financial year do you mean??  Do they usually take on new trainees each July?




I think selection is generally in July, trainee program starts in August.

Though, not sure how many they take in or how many generally end up as traders there..........may be a very high failure rate.  But hey, that is to be expected in trading, especially prop.


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## Trembling Hand (12 July 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> You still thinking of applying TH (not for the training program of course), but for an actual position and account?




No. thankfully past it.


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## Largesse (12 July 2008)

hi guys,

what are the chances of a 3rd year uni commerce student progressing to the interview stage at propex? should i bother or will it be a waste of time applying?
i am prepared to defer second semester and relocate to sydney.

thanks in advance

Big L


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## Largesse (12 July 2008)

Whitey1982,

Any chance you looking to take on an intern/trainee this summer? From your brief description of what you do, your area is what i'm looking to get into after i graduate.

I will be applying through all the normal channels but it's always worth asking! 


L


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## MRC & Co (12 July 2008)

Largeese, lol, none of us here are from Propex, so wouldn't have the slightest clue.  I am throwing my hat into the ring, but no expectations.  Think my chances would be lower than 50/50, so just go with the flow.  

Either way, I still have my own capital to trade, luckily haven't lost it all yet.


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## jersey10 (12 July 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Largeese, lol, none of us here are from Propex, so wouldn't have the slightest clue.  I am throwing my hat into the ring, but no expectations.  Think my chances would be lower than 50/50, so just go with the flow.
> 
> Either way, I still have my own capital to trade, luckily haven't lost it all yet.




MRC,

From reading your posts over the months i have been here you seem fairly cluey about the whole trading game.  Surely if Propex are prepared to train people from scratch you would be a decent bet to get a gig?  Or would they prefer someone who has no experience so they can be taught the Propex system and have no biases towards other systems or ways of trading??


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## MRC & Co (12 July 2008)

Thx Jersey.

I wouldn't have a clue who they would prefer.  I guess they would have something specific they are looking for, but I think experience would definatley be a plus.  I doubt there would be a "Propex system" as everybody needs to trade differently.

But I imagine there would be plenty of experienced traders still having a shot at it, not to mention, they don't have a clue what I know or can and can't do whilst interviews are always very random.  A lot depends on the questions asked and how you feel and are thinking on that day.  I think a formal interview process is a complete waste of time personally.  A drink and a chat with a look at a resume would be a much better way IMO.

Either way, good luck if you apply mate, keep us filled in.  Hopefully someone from around here gets a shot at least at the training gig and can shed a bit more light on the entire scene.


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