# TopStepTrader - An Online Prop Shop



## CanOz (1 November 2012)

www.topsteptrader.com

I came across this after watching a webinar by one of thier coaches. I've joined up and intend on trading CL in the evenings and see if i can qualify...

I'm surprised no one else has seen this before. They check out ok, CME members. Boofis, this could be right up your alley mate....

CanOz


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## 5oclock (1 November 2012)

CanOz , sounds good mate, will be interested to see how you go and what your thoughts are after you have given it a go with them.


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## skc (1 November 2012)

I haven't read it but potentially some good info here.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=250400


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## havaiana (1 November 2012)

Not sure if T4 is still the only platform you can use, if it is it will drive you insane


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## havaiana (1 November 2012)

Here is another one http://pulsarcap.com/trading_career_programme/trader_guidelines


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## CanOz (1 November 2012)

havaiana said:


> Not sure if T4 is still the only platform you can use, if it is it will drive you insane




You can use fully licensed copies of NT as well

Thanks for the link SKC....


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## CanOz (1 November 2012)

havaiana said:


> Here is another one http://pulsarcap.com/trading_career_programme/trader_guidelines




I'd love to set this up for the Asian markets...


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## aussiefx (1 November 2012)

CanOz said:


> I'd love to set this up for the Asian markets...




Pulsar requirements seem much too difficult, I think.

$4k profit from 1 contract is extremely hard work in 10 days. That'd be 400 pips for any FX traders.

Perhaps achievable trading CL but the volatility could easily ruin the 2% d/down too.

TST seems a much more sensible option and their guidelines seem fairly achievable if showing some good trading and discipline.


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## CanOz (1 November 2012)

Went through the ET Thread...I don't know how that forum survives, the thread was totally highjacked. I see the P/L has been removed too.

Anyway...we must make our own road.

CanOz


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## skc (1 November 2012)

I haven't looked through this in detail but a few things jump out at me.

1. As a funded trader, there's a max drawdown of $4500 on a $150k account?! That sounds extremely small and probably result in many traders being dropped back to stage 2?

2. Trading commission is $1.25 per contract + exchange fees. IB charges a retail trader 85c per contract. A real prop shop should have trading commission substantially lower than retail, not the other way round.

3. You need to do a course from them before you go live to gain 65% profit split... it feels like a cheeky way of selling education.

4. Add in monthly membership fees, fees to do the combine etc etc. The costs add up quickly.

My suspicion... while TST may or may not be serious in funding good traders with equity, it has structured its business such a way that it will also profit from the many who try and fail. In deed, the way their commission and trading limit is drawn up, they may actually increase the chance of failure.

Go join a real prop shop


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## CanOz (4 November 2012)

skc said:


> I haven't looked through this in detail but a few things jump out at me.
> 
> 1. As a funded trader, there's a max drawdown of $4500 on a $150k account?! That sounds extremely small and probably result in many traders being dropped back to stage 2?
> 
> ...




That would be ideal, but its going to involve some travel at first for me...

Some reviews here:

I like the rules and the fact that they're giving out a challenge with some strict parameters. I personally need that. I may or may not try a combine (i'm on the two week free trial) but i have setup my NT account so that i have similar funding as the combine. No that i have applied for the ZenFire account i can't use IB as my sim unless i buy a multi broker license. Anyway, over the next month I'll try and meet the criteria on my markets (while managing a dying factory). 

I think we should have a simulator challenge on ASF, for those of us who are not trading live.

CanOz


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## havaiana (14 May 2013)

Did you end up doing a combine? I'm starting one tomorrow will update how i find it

I did a couple of days practice and don't anticipate i will have too much trouble meeting the requirements except for the profit target. $5 a round turn in commissions for currency futures really makes it tough


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## CanOz (14 May 2013)

havaiana said:


> Did you end up doing a combine? I'm starting one tomorrow will update how i find it
> 
> I did a couple of days practice and don't anticipate i will have too much trouble meeting the requirements except for the profit target. $5 a round turn in commissions for currency futures really makes it tough




Haven't done one yet, no. Was thinking to trade my own account live for a few months first.

Can you post your results in a thread for us to enjoy?

CanOz


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## havaiana (14 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> Haven't done one yet, no. Was thinking to trade my own account live for a few months first.
> 
> Can you post your results in a thread for us to enjoy?
> 
> CanOz




Will do, committing to posting my stats each day might make me less likely to do something stupid (or at least be entertaining for others if I fail miserably)


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## CanOz (14 May 2013)

havaiana said:


> Will do, committing to posting my stats each day might make me less likely to do something stupid (or at least be entertaining for others if I fail miserably)




Good luck...

Tip: the 30k 10 day combine is supposed to be the easiest for most traders to adapt to apparently. It simulates the size most retail traders are used to. While tempting for some to for the bigger contract size, the results are very tough and trading with size that you may not be used to can be difficult.

That's what i heard from another site where there are quite few that have tried the combine or are in the process now....

CanOz


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## DJG (14 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> That would be ideal, but its going to involve some travel at first for me...
> I think we should have a simulator challenge on ASF, for those of us who are not trading live.
> 
> CanOz






havaiana said:


> Will do, committing to posting my stats each day might make me less likely to do something stupid (or at least be entertaining for others if I fail miserably)




I'm interested in watching a competition and/or your progress. Always interested in anything finance when it comes to learning


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## havaiana (15 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> Tip: the 30k 10 day combine is supposed to be the easiest ....




I went for that one

Criteria to pass are as follows:

Always implement stops with an open position
Daily stop loss $500 (if exceed, fail)
Max drawdown $1,500 (if exceed fail)
Max contracts: 3
Average trade greater than $0
Profit target of $1,500
Plus meet 2 of the 3 below
-Overall Average Win greater than Overall Average Loss-
-Overall Average Win Duration greater than Overall Average Loss Duration
-Total Win percentage of 45 or greater

I will be trading AUD and YEN futures during asia (maybe first hour of europe if i'm feeling it). Probably not the best choice of instrument and timeframe for this but i trade currencies better than anything else

I think the criteria will help most traders trade better if anything. The hard part is with $5 round trip commissions that profit target becomes a whole lot harder (at least for me).

Will post my stats at the end of each trading session, with any observations of the experience for the day


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## havaiana (15 May 2013)

Day 1 done.

Started off surprisingly nervous, had butterflies in my stomach, can't remember the last time that has happened. It made me a little gun shy and didn't take as many trades as I would normally.

T4 went ok, it's just a bit of a pain when you want to enter in different types of orders fast, you need to click up above the DOM to change order type then click back down in the dom to enter it. I know i will get punished by this at least a couple of times over the 10 days.

Only caught one small runner, but ran above expectation with win % so didn't do too bad. Only concern as previously stated will be the profit target, think I will need to average more than $190 on winning days to cover any losing days. Am only trading 1 contract at the moment though, so can double or triple up if i start to fall behind. For the moment will stick to 1 contract and see where i stand after the next couple of days


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## CanOz (15 May 2013)

Pretty good choice of instruments for this time of day. You could trade right up until Euro lunch.

Great start Hav.

CanOz


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## havaiana (16 May 2013)

Thanks Can

Day 2

Hit a nice little runner through the stops after that barrier broke at 9850 on AUD/USD, that made all the difference today. Contiued to really pick my spots today, so not very active again. It seems to be paying off, maybe all my ****ty little trades barely covering commissions have been bringing down my average trade in the past. Ran pretty good again today, so that with the runner has been enough to give me a decent head start.

From now on will post the update in the morning so i can post the topstep trade report that will have the days results plus the summary.


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## havaiana (16 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> You could trade right up until Euro lunch.




Regarding this, my plan was to not trade London open unless i really needed to. All my practice has been just on these 2 instruments just during asia. I've seen a vast improvement in my trading over a small amount of time after trying to specialise. After London opens they trade completely different and i would have to treat it as if i was learning/trading completely different instruments.


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## CanOz (16 May 2013)

havaiana said:


> Regarding this, my plan was to not trade London open unless i really needed to. All my practice has been just on these 2 instruments just during asia. I've seen a vast improvement in my trading over a small amount of time after trying to specialise. After London opens they trade completely different and i would have to treat it as if i was learning/trading completely different instruments.




Yeah too right. Trade what you know. I've been all over these commodity breaks lately until today, after farking around with that stupid MHI i couldn't let it go and instead cut out early on two gold trades that would have been huge....

CanOz


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## havaiana (18 May 2013)

Day 3

Bit of a frustrating day. Couldn't get anything going on AUD and missed the move.
Yen I planned for a small range day but looking for a small pop. Kept playing the same idea all day and the runner kept on coming back for scratch's or plus/minus a couple of ticks. Would have made alot more not looking for the runner.
Finished in the green and doing pretty well so far considering I haven't had a great day yet (also haven't had a bad day). No changes on the game plan for next week, will just keep grinding away with one contract picking my spots.


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## havaiana (20 May 2013)

Day 4

Will post results tomorrow when they're up on the site. Just posting comments now while they're fresh in my mind. 

Got killed in AUD today. Started off the morning with 4 straight losses and the next 4 trades were 3 scratches and another loss (I count a scratch as -1 to +2 ticks). Soon after I had another 4 straight full stop losses. Running below expectation but mainly trading like crap/overtrading etc. Monday's, especially the first half of the day are consistently my worst day of the week. I always plan to trade sim first to warm up, but forget come Monday.

I was going to stop myself out for the day below -$300 to keep my largest losing day less than my largest current winning. At one point one more losing trade would have had me knocking off early.  I ran hot in YEN after the first few trades and last trade of the day in AUD hit a 22 tick runner which made the day look ok, but without that last trade I would have to start trading 2 contracts tomorrow. Having a drawdown nearly as big as my biggest day is obviously ****e trading.

1 contract again tomorrow, however if i don't have a decent day will switch up to 2 contracts on day 6, don't want to have to meet the profit target on day 10.


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## havaiana (21 May 2013)




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## CanOz (21 May 2013)

I guess thats a benefit of trading two products for the combine. Well done, good recovery. 

How do you find the T4 platform?

CanOz


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## havaiana (21 May 2013)

I never thought i would say it, but T4 is growing on me. I actually like the executing part better than ninjatrader. No frills but got everything you need and it goes well when you get used to the moving DOM. The only negative is having to click above the DOM to change order types. Maybe there is something i can even do about that, haven't checked

*Day 5*
At half way mark after today and had my first losing day. Didn't trade too bad, timing was off a little and missed getting filled on them good moves in the morning and ran a little under expectation. Finished net -153 on yen and +10 on AUD.

I'm up against it now, at the half way point i'm up $550 total. So 5 days to make $950, need to double my performance! Think all my stats are fine, but don't see myself making that profit on one contract, can't bank on having a good day. Now i just don't know whether to start off on 2 contracts tomorrow, or start on 1 and only move to 2 when in profit for the day. Problem is if i took a hit on one of the instruments for 2 days after switching to 2 contracts could put all my stats out of whack.


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## havaiana (21 May 2013)

Forgot to mention about T4, it's very quick too. Previously i have been using ninja through AMP/CQG, i also have a couple of retail/ecn brokers for the spot market. There was no noticeable difference on which was quicker with amp/cqg and the spot brokers, with T4 it moves a fraction of a second faster than my spot tick charts, not anything i could take advantage of but just interesting that it is that touch faster....


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## CanOz (21 May 2013)

havaiana said:


> I'm up against it now, at the half way point i'm up $550 total. So 5 days to make $950, need to double my performance! Think all my stats are fine, but don't see myself making that profit on one contract, can't bank on having a good day. Now i just don't know whether to start off on 2 contracts tomorrow, or start on 1 and only move to 2 when in profit for the day. Problem is if i took a hit on one of the instruments for 2 days after switching to 2 contracts could put all my stats out of whack.




What does your system need in terms of market conditions to perform better? If thats likely to be present tomorrow then an increase in size could be worthwhile. 

CanOz


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## havaiana (22 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> What does your system need in terms of market conditions to perform better? If thats likely to be present tomorrow then an increase in size could be worthwhile.
> 
> CanOz




It shouldn't matter too much as long as it's not too quiet. I do prefer a big range rather than a big trend though, i seem to be the only trader who sucks at timing catching trends. I see what you are saying, load up when conditions suit, i haven't been that good at predicting the conditions recently.

I'm just going to treat the next 5 days like a seperate 5 day combine, trade with 2 contracts, if my performance is the same as the previous 5 days i will pass. I really just don't want to come to the last day having to make a big number.

EDIT: trade report not updated yet, will post later


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## waza1960 (22 May 2013)

> I'm just going to treat the next 5 days like a seperate 5 day combine, trade with 2 contracts, if my performance is the same as the previous 5 days i will pass. I really just don't want to come to the last day having to make a big number.




 This is the best course of action IMO. 
 Just concentrate on the trades especially trade management and forget about the money until you review at end of session. Trade with the contract size required to achieve the outcome needed and then forget about it while trading.
  As in " Reminiscences of a Stock Operator" if your trading is focused on achieving a certain goal or amount of money in a fixed time frame then you are likely to fail.
 Good luck nice thread


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## havaiana (22 May 2013)

Thanks Waza

Trade report still not updated with yesterday's figures, not sure what's up with that. Sent an email to support this morning, but they're on Chicago time so I don't expect hear back until late tonight.

Will probably have to extend my hours into european open starting tomorrow to help hit the target, assuming i'm not stopped out! Green day today but not as green as i would have liked, +220 net. Still need to make about $730 over the next 4 days.

Nothing much to note in todays session. Missed the early trend move again (at least i'm consistent), then the range was too small for me to do much with my $5 commissions and current trading skills (or lack thereof). Started out with 2 contracts for a couple of trades, but spent the rest of the day on 1 contract after it slowed and just wasn't feeling it. Spent most of the day going for a pop in yen again, scratched the last attempt for +1 tick after about an hour of being in profit after started taking some heat, 5 mins later it ran for 20 ticks. Yen does that to me every time, it's a love hate relationship, when you see the trade report from yesterday you will see the hate, lots of hate...


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## havaiana (23 May 2013)

update of trade report with days 5 and 6


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## havaiana (23 May 2013)

Hit daily stop. Bloody Yen, I traded so, so bad today.

Would need a super day to make it from here and i think it would have to be on yen, I think i'm in total -$15 on it so my stats would be all messed up.

I have made two big mistakes during this:

Should have traded 2 contracts from the start. Although it depends on market conditions i know roughly the expecation of one of my trades. I said before i started i would be pushing it to hit the profit target on 1 contract. It was dumb to try and do something i knew i wasn't able to acheive without some luck when i could just trade 2. Profit target would have been hit on day 6 if i had.

In terms of my actual trading, my mistake was going for too many runners after falling behind. My trading lets me just cover costs + a little bit more, then when everything lines up, letting one run here and there makes some extra. The first few days weren't great days by any means, only hit i think 2 runners over that time, rest of the money i made then was just grinding away. After that I was trying to hit runners on nearly all my trades to catch up, started losing money slowly and making it back on the runners instead of making some grinding and making some more on a runner if the opportunity presented

net -$460 for the day , +$315 Total :bad:


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## havaiana (23 May 2013)

What's interesting now is despite highlighting it as a mistake, i might have to hit a couple of big runners to have any hope of making it.  Will have to think about how i will approach this now...

Maybe 3 contracts and trade normal and hope for a bit of luck
Maybe step up to a bigger time frame, put the stops out a bit and go for a big runner....

I hate yen


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## CanOz (23 May 2013)

Hang in there Hav, you're likely learning more than you realize right now....

Keep swinging for singles, you might hit a home run in the process.

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (23 May 2013)

Keep trading the way you would normally. Don't change anything to "make it".

Far better to go out if you did it your way and fail than flip flop around and go out because you chased a result.


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## havaiana (23 May 2013)

Yeah good call guys, just annoying to waste the 2 weeks


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## Trembling Hand (23 May 2013)

havaiana said:


> Yeah good call guys, just annoying to waste the 2 weeks




If I had just a couple of buck for every two week I have wasted.....


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## havaiana (24 May 2013)




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## havaiana (25 May 2013)

Day 8



Can and TH i owe you blokes a beer for telling me just to stick with it. Despite the green day i traded rubbish again. Really could have made the whole profit target in one day today if i hadn't tried to force things so much. At times my trading was completely off the rails (see number of contracts traded), also traded through europe as planned.

4 of the last 5 days i really have traded bad, kind of impressed that my trading has stayed in the positive despite this. Although i've not made much i've paid $1,145 in commissions in addition to this. Monday is usually a bad day, add in US and London on holiday and that i am already trading bad, i'm taking it off to sim and will come back on Tuesday for day 9. Will trade through europe again. I'm still in with a decent shot at passing this if i stick to the plan.


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## CanOz (25 May 2013)

Keep plodding away mate, you'll get there...


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## havaiana (28 May 2013)

That was a quick morning, 5 trades in 10 minutes, all bad trades except for the first one and daily stop loss hit

Need to make $1,100 tomorrow...


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## havaiana (28 May 2013)

Just to add to this more as a note to myself than anything else. I have a rule for fades, it relates to any fade after the previous one was a stop out on the same move. Taking any fades after the previous losing one isn't profitable long term how i trade unless i stick to this rule. The trades it filters out lose a ton of money long term.

Every trade after the first one broke the rule and many trades increasingly have from day 5 onwards.


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## CanOz (28 May 2013)

havaiana said:


> Just to add to this more as a note to myself than anything else. I have a rule for fades, it relates to any fade after the previous one was a stop out on the same move. Taking any fades after the previous losing one isn't profitable long term how i trade unless i stick to this rule. The trades it filters out lose a f ton of money long term.
> 
> Every trade after the first one broke the rule and many trades increasingly have from day 5 onwards.




I know another guy, ex Prop trader that has a rule for fades on the ES, he'll fade the first two, then accept that the third will fail and stops will run...Something that could be tested.

CanOz


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## havaiana (28 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> I know another guy, ex Prop trader that has a rule for fades on the ES, he'll fade the first two, then accept that the third will fail and stops will run...Something that could be tested.
> 
> CanOz




Interesting, my rule relates to the reactions, how large is the continuation, was there a bounce, how big, how fast, volume etc, certainly nothing groundbreaking.

The thing with re entering a fade after being stopped out is it will usually work so it can pull you in. Kind of like how martingale strategy works, more often than not it will work, but that one time it doesn't....


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## havaiana (28 May 2013)

Another note to self. My position sizing was very amateurish, only trading 1 to start with then only trading 2 to catch up. Should have started with 1, and pushed things when i was going well or saw a gimme setup... Overall should have just ignored the profit target and rather than try to just hit that target should have tried to make more/as much as i could


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## havaiana (2 August 2013)

Failed another couple after this. Would have helped if I read the rules properly and knew that I didn't have to complete these combines in 10 days, I had to trade a MINIMUM of 10 days in a month!

When I found that out it made the task a lot easier so I went for a $50k one so could have 5 contracts of buying power instead of 3 if I passed.

Just passed today! 




(note: since i started this last combine they have since changed the rules, now they ARE a min and max of 10 or 20 traded days, i got on board just in time)

This was the last of my nearly 150 trades over the combine. Most of my trades I only hold for a few minutes, so this felt like the longest trade of my life watching the P&L approach and move away from the magic $53,500 number, nearly puked several times!




Will update with what happens now...


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## Trembling Hand (2 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> Just passed today!
> 
> Will update with what happens now...




Good one.  I'm interested in seeing what happens now too.


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## CanOz (2 August 2013)

Yeah:jump::aus::bier::bananasmi:band Hav!!!!
 The first ASFer to pass the TST combine!! Woooooooooooooooo Hoooooooooooooooooo!!!

Well done!!


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## havaiana (2 August 2013)

Thanks guys, have just moved from the beer onto the red. The GF will be wrapped to see the state I'm in when she gets home from work! I may as well set up in the spare room now


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## CanOz (2 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> Thanks guys, have just moved from the beer onto the red. The GF will be wrapped to see the state I'm in when she gets home from work! I may as well set up in the spare room now




man i'm just so happy for you, you deserve a drink...i might have one for you too lol!!:alcohol:

I wondered where you'd been, you've been focusing!

- - - Updated - - -

I reckon I might wait until September or so before i start my combine. If i can resolve my connection issue then i might be able to stick with Ninja, if not i'll have to try T4. How did you find it?


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## Trembling Hand (2 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> Thanks guys, have just moved from the beer onto the red. The GF will be wrapped to see the state I'm in when she gets home from work! I may as well set up in the spare room now




Nah.... make a run for it to the pub and send her annoying random selfies all night from bars.

They love that........ I'm sure of it.... :


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## havaiana (2 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> man i'm just so happy for you, you deserve a drink...i might have one for you too lol!!:alcohol:
> 
> I wondered where you'd been, you've been focusing!
> 
> ...




I traded rubbish after the first one, went back to sim to fix some things then did 2 more. Only failed the last one because I went for broke on the 10th day thinking I had to complete in 10 traded days! When I realised I had the whole month, there was no pressure so a lot easier.

I don't mind T4 at all, a lot quicker than ninja and my spot brokers so that's enough to win me over. Only thing of note would be the T4 simulator is a bit dodgy on stop orders in forex. Doesn't seem to pick up icebergs and will fill your stop a tick past where volume traded sometimes or a tick past a refreshing bid/offer. I use limits 95% of the time so wasn't and issue for me, but if you're using stop orders a lot and are active it will add up.

I was previously using some of the same ninja tools (jigsaw) as you, great for learning what to watch for and how much volume it takes to stop and move a market. But i found i didn't miss it as much as I thought I would, now that you have learned it you won't need the tools as much as you think. You can just watch the changing volumes on the total traded column on the DOM and you pick up enough info in my opinion


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## CanOz (2 August 2013)

Great stuff Hav...

Will you be able to trade those during the hours you like?

I heard from one guy that although he traded during European hours for the combine once he got funded the hours were US due to the risk manager on duty.

you got to give us a heads up when you get your interview too


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## skc (2 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> Failed another couple after this. Would have helped if I read the rules properly and knew that I didn't have to complete these combines in 10 days, I had to trade a MINIMUM of 10 days in a month!
> 
> When I found that out it made the task a lot easier so I went for a $50k one so could have 5 contracts of buying power instead of 3 if I passed.
> 
> ...




Well done Hav. Your persistence is second only to Will Smith trying to solve the rubics cub in the cab ride in _Pursuit of Happyness_. Do keep us up to date on how things work at TST...



havaiana said:


> Thanks guys, have just moved from the beer onto the red. The GF will be wrapped to see the state I'm in when she gets home from work! I may as well set up in the spare room now




Nah. I suggest you greet her with the naked man.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The Naked Man


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## CanOz (2 August 2013)

Here's my CL prep for TST, 67 trades so far. Obviously need to trade a few more days and I had two weeks off as well.


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## havaiana (3 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Will you be able to trade those during the hours you like?
> 
> I heard from one guy that although he traded during European hours for the combine once he got funded the hours were US due to the risk manager on duty.




I hope I can trade Asia, hadn't considered otherwise!

Believe me when I say Selfies and Naked Man would not have been good for my well being. Would certainly have been considered though if i'd got through any more wine before she come home

Looking good Canoz, what size/length combine are you planning on going for?

- - - Updated - - -

Final Trade Report


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## CanOz (3 August 2013)

Hav those are solid results ! I've not seen to many report like that where the average loss is so small with a umber of good size wins.

I've always used 4 contracts, so thinking of the 50 k 10 day combine. Can you explain the difference in the rules again, I'm still not completely getting it...


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## havaiana (5 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Hav those are solid results ! I've not seen to many report like that where the average loss is so small with a umber of good size wins...




Don't read into my stats too much, the majority of my trades are scratches, I was purposely exiting all my scratch trades at +1 tick so i could 'fix' the stats later if i needed to with the extra win % in the bank.

As it turned out I didn't need to. Cost me $ overall trading that way because i was scratching trades i would usually let run to ensure i could get out at +1 rather than a small loss, but i was more concerned with the stats than the profit target.



CanOz said:


> ...Can you explain the difference in the rules again, I'm still not completely getting it...




When I first read about a combine on a forum, the guy doing a 10 day combine had to trade at least 10 days and a maximum of 10 days over 30 days, so i just assumed it was the still the same when i did mine. However it was changed that you had to trade at least 10 days in the month, but there was no maximum number of days over that 30 days. Now it is changed back to a max of 10 days

So I finished my combine with I think a week to spare in the month, so passed it pretty easy. If i signed up to the same combine now, it took me 19 days, which is 9 days over the amount of trading days i would be allowed so I would have failed dismally.


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## CanOz (5 August 2013)

Ahh ok, so now you have 30 days in which to trade a maximum of 10 days. So basically you try and pick your days, stay out of the choppy inside days if that's your thing...or vice verse.


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## havaiana (6 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Ahh ok, so now you have 30 days in which to trade a maximum of 10 days. So basically you try and pick your days, stay out of the choppy inside days if that's your thing...or vice verse.





I was wrong about this, now you can choose a 10 day combine to be completed in 30 days or 20 day combine to be completed within the 60 days, both are the same price and profit limits. So i could have chosen the 20 day one and still passed. Makes sense, means everyone will choose the 20 day rather than the 10 so they have twice as long to meet the same target and the fact they will have to trade 20 days means less people will luck it in.

Chicago closing up shop now and haven't heard anything yet except an auto email to say i have met the profit target and am pending review. Hopefully will hear back tomorrow night

Hoping that the bit in bold doesn't mean more sim or having to do some psychology or TA course.... "Pending review, a *Live Trader Preparation period* may be requested to further confirm your trading methodology and downside control."


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## havaiana (7 August 2013)

Just got an email about my review, I now have to complete the 'live trader preparation period' to receive a funded account

Need to sim again for at least 10 days, meet profit target of $1,250 and meet a lot of other negotiable requirements additional to the combine ones that need to be confirmed by phone call. 

Main worrying ones to me are:
-not adding to losing trades which i am a ton more profitable doing (they don't have traders that average into trades??)
-what hours i am allowed to trade
-daily stop is now = to my weekly stop

In addition to these there are some standard ones; and then some others are not so worrying, just kind of annoying like:
-At the start of my day I will trade only _____ lot(s) and will only add to my position or increase my size if my total Net P&L is greater than $500
-I will stop trading for the day if my total Net P&L is greater than $500 and my total Net P&L has pulled back 50% off my high watermark (realized Net P&L high of the day).

After I complete this it seems the same rules apply for the funded account until I build up a profit buffer of $5k

I gave up work to concentrate on learning to trade full time, although i feel it is starting to become a successful and worthwhile pursuit, I do not have a whole lot of cash left. I've been trading Sim and only just started slowly building up a very small personal live account recently on the side. I need to decide if I want to sacrifice another 2 weeks (at least) trading sim or concentrate on trading my live account

Will wait for the phone call to find out exactly what the conditions are and make a decision. Don't mean to come across as a whiner, I can see why they have these things in place, but to be honest, if I knew i would have to complete a live trader prep in addition to completing the combine with such low drawdown I probably wouldn't have done it.

The website gives the impression of  complete combine, funded.
Reality is, complete combine, complete another combine-like period with added conditions, funded with added conditions until $5k profit, funded.


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## aussiefx (7 August 2013)

Hi Havaina,

I may have missed this but why don't you apply to Propex? You'd make the in house training within 4 weeks if the online program.

TST sounds like an awful lot of hoops to jump through and ridiculous stipulations.


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## havaiana (7 August 2013)

Just for clarification, "a Live Trader Preparation period may be requested to further confirm your trading methodology and downside control.", so not everyone has to do it

It does not show in my stats but pretty sure my total max drawdown during this combine was closer to $350 than the Daily max loss permitted of $1,000 and max drawdown of $2,000 for the combine. so I must fall into the 'confirm your trading methodology' category


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## havaiana (7 August 2013)

aussiefx said:


> Hi Havaina,
> 
> I may have missed this but why don't you apply to Propex? You'd make the in house training within 4 weeks if the online program.
> 
> TST sounds like an awful lot of hoops to jump through and ridiculous stipulations.




I did the propex program bit over a year ago. It was one of the best steps in my trading journey that I ever made, but I had never traded futures or bonds (which were what we traded during it). Did not make the cut.

Assuming I was allowed to apply again (not sure if there are rules about this) I would have to go through the whole sim process again and if i make the cut move interstate, Sim some more. I just don't have the cash to do that at the moment and am at a point i know i can trade profitably.

My plan was to trade sim until i know i can make money (at that point now), build up a live track record and apply that way. I thought TST might be a short cut, but it seems it may have made the process longer as I have been on their SIM rather than trading live.

I don't want to give TST too hard a time, i think it's a great concept and will give alot of people an opportunity they didn't previously have. You can also see the reasons they do the things they do. I may still complete the process.

My only gripes are that I just can't see what is so bad about my performance that I require a live trader prep and that i think that some of the new (negotiable) conditions are rubbish. Without the live trader prep and conditions I would be all for the process. But I will ask why, there could very well be a good reason and maybe i can negotiate through the conditions.


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## CanOz (7 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> I did the propex program bit over a year ago. It was one of the best steps in my trading journey that I ever made, but I had never traded futures or bonds (which were what we traded during it). Did not make the cut.
> 
> Assuming I was allowed to apply again (not sure if there are rules about this) I would have to go through the whole sim process again and if i make the cut move interstate, Sim some more. I just don't have the cash to do that at the moment and am at a point i know i can trade profitably.
> 
> ...




Yeah this has been one of the complaints of TST. They could be more transparent about it for sure. I think you should continue Hav, you've come along way so far. Have a chat with them and tell them how you feel.


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## havaiana (7 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Yeah this has been one of the complaints of TST. They could be more transparent about it for sure. I think you should continue Hav, you've come along way so far. Have a chat with them and tell them how you feel.




It would be annoying to waste all the time, but as it stands I wont be continuing, there would have to be some substantial negotiation with the new conditions at least.

Passing the prep is easy but at least 2 weeks, then add all the time to reach $5k at half my usual profitability is not worth it. It would just cost me way too much.

To be honest I'm a lot more annoyed by these developments than is probably showing in my posts right now. It looked like a one-size-fits-all type email though and maybe they will be a lot more receptive than i am anticipating when I explain my trading style a bit better. So until then I'll keep it friendly


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## ChaosHedge (14 August 2013)

Hi All
I'm new to posting on ASF although I have been studying these forums for a while now, trying to learn as much as I can. Lately I've been spending a few hours every night practicing on SIM, trying to find a style that I'm comfortable with. As I don't have any capital to put into trading at the moment, this Topstep program seems like a good way to test my method without committing personal funds. I'm thinking about signing up for the 30k combine but would like to hear if anyone has tried this and had success or otherwise.

As I understand it, my maximum risk would be the $175 sign up fee (deposit). Is there anything else I'm missing here? As I will only be trading US hours, I won't be sacrificing my normal income to spend time on this.

I'd appreciate any feedback on this.
Cheers


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## CanOz (14 August 2013)

ChaosHedge said:


> Hi All
> I'm new to posting on ASF although I have been studying these forums for a while now, trying to learn as much as I can. Lately I've been spending a few hours every night practicing on SIM, trying to find a style that I'm comfortable with. As I don't have any capital to put into trading at the moment, this Topstep program seems like a good way to test my method without committing personal funds. I'm thinking about signing up for the 30k combine but would like to hear if anyone has tried this and had success or otherwise.
> 
> As I understand it, my maximum risk would be the $175 sign up fee (deposit). Is there anything else I'm missing here? As I will only be trading US hours, I won't be sacrificing my normal income to spend time on this.
> ...




Sounds like you've got a good handle on it CH...My only advice would be to try and get a couple of weeks in on SIM with their rules before you blow the combine fee. Trade like it really counts.

Other than this I'm sure Havianna will chime in with his experience.


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## ChaosHedge (14 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> Sounds like you've got a good handle on it CH...My only advice would be to try and get a couple of weeks in on SIM with their rules before you blow the combine fee. Trade like it really counts.
> 
> Other than this I'm sure Havianna will chime in with his experience.




Thanks CanOz
I'm currently on their 2 week trial account so I'll see how it goes.


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## CanOz (14 August 2013)

ChaosHedge said:


> Thanks CanOz
> I'm currently on their 2 week trial account so I'll see how it goes.




Well good luck, be great to see some of your stats when you get going.


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## havaiana (15 August 2013)

ChaosHedge said:


> ...
> I'd appreciate any feedback on this.




Hi Chaos

I think it's worthwhile for someone in your situation. Don't worry about the profit target, if you can meet all the stats there is a good chance you will finish in profit and the combine will keep rolling over until you pass or request your deposit back. In saying that, unless you are already consistently profitable, expect to lose the deposit, but will be a cheap lesson.

I would wait until after August before signing up for the combine as EU/US holidays are at the moment.

To try and find your style on the trial account I would suggest you spend at least a night on each of these exercises:

- Stack both sides of the orderbook with an order every *x* ticks (*x* will depend on the market, it's a learning exercise so you want to be pretty active). Once you have stacked the book you can only add orders to keep it stacked or stop yourself out of a position.
- Enter every pullback of *x* ticks (*x* will depend on market, again you want to be active). You have to take every trade, have a fixed stop and exit at your own discretion
- Try to loose as much money as you can, only limit orders allowed, no stops or market orders (this is harder than you would expect, if you can achieve this than in theory reversing it should be easy!)
- Stay in a position all session, you can only reverse, can't close out flat


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## ChaosHedge (15 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> Hi Chaos
> 
> I think it's worthwhile for someone in your situation. Don't worry about the profit target, if you can meet all the stats there is a good chance you will finish in profit and the combine will keep rolling over until you pass or request your deposit back. In saying that, unless you are already consistently profitable, expect to lose the deposit, but will be a cheap lesson.
> 
> ...




Havaiana, thanks for the heads-up on the US holidays. I'll spend the next couple weeks working on the exercises you've suggested and then have a crack at the combine in Sept.

In my SIM trading so far, I've been focussing mainly on the order flow & 1 min charts and this seems to produce good results on range-bound days, but then when it runs I get smashed. Should I be monitoring news or other instruments looking for signs of a big move or should I just sit back & wait for range again? (Trading CL btw)

Thanks


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## havaiana (15 August 2013)

ChaosHedge said:


> ... this seems to produce good results on range-bound days, but then when it runs I get smashed. Should I be monitoring news or other instruments looking for signs of a big move or should I just sit back & wait for range again? (Trading CL btw)




In terms of free news, I just use the forexfactory calender for anything scheduled and forexlive does a pretty good job of keeping on top of anything that may not be on the calender. I don't trade crude so not sure about any specific news for it, maybe someone else can suggest, I think the cme website may keep track of more specific news.

Again, I don't know much about crude, but I would think if you're planning on trading crude during US you would want to add some trend following/fat tails type stuff and not just go for the mean reverting range days, it's a bit of a beast. The exercises should help you develop something there. In saying that I'm sure plenty of traders do make their money just trading it when it starts to go back into a range. I personally think if you try to learn both mean revision and fat tail strategies then you can be a bit more adaptable to changing market conditions. One will win while the other is losing, the key is just knowing when to switch from one to the other.

Other than that I will just add I don't think the equity partner will want to see you getting smashed. Just concentrate on keeping your losing trades smaller than your winning trades and losing days smaller than you're winning days, that is the type of trader they are after. I would also add a self imposed daily stop that is a fair bit less than the daily stop they allow in the combine.


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## ChaosHedge (15 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> In terms of free news, I just use the forexfactory calender for anything scheduled and forexlive does a pretty good job of keeping on top of anything that may not be on the calender. I don't trade crude so not sure about any specific news for it, maybe someone else can suggest, I think the cme website may keep track of more specific news.
> 
> Again, I don't know much about crude, but I would think if you're planning on trading crude during US you would want to add some trend following/fat tails type stuff and not just go for the mean reverting range days, it's a bit of a beast. The exercises should help you develop something there. In saying that I'm sure plenty of traders do make their money just trading it when it starts to go back into a range. I personally think if you try to learn both mean revision and fat tail strategies then you can be a bit more adaptable to changing market conditions. One will win while the other is losing, the key is just knowing when to switch from one to the other.
> 
> Other than that I will just add I don't think the equity partner will want to see you getting smashed. Just concentrate on keeping your losing trades smaller than your winning trades and losing days smaller than you're winning days, that is the type of trader they are after. I would also add a self imposed daily stop that is a fair bit less than the daily stop they allow in the combine.




Thanks for all the helpful info. It makes sense that I should not be trying to use the same strategy all the time. I'm not familiar with fat tail strategies so I think I'll study this further before I attempt the combine.


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## CanOz (15 August 2013)

On CL there are lots of trapped trader plays you can look for too, quite often some nice trends start as a results of a bunch of stops being swept. How are you defining your key levels?


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## havaiana (15 August 2013)

ChaosHedge said:


> ...I'm not familiar with fat tail strategies so I think I'll study this further before I attempt the combine.




Sorry Chaos, not trying to be cryptic

I pretty much see my trading essentially as one of or a combination of these 2:

FAT TAILS
Entering on pullbacks with the trend and letting profits run

MEAN REVISION
taking a trade at one end of the range and exiting when it comes back to the mean


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## ChaosHedge (15 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> On CL there are lots of trapped trader plays you can look for too, quite often some nice trends start as a results of a bunch of stops being swept. How are you defining your key levels?




I try to pick key levels by looking at hourly and 15 min charts and plotting recent highs/lows and then swap to 1 min chart and watch the orders around these levels. I wait for a stop sweep and then try to enter when I see the orders increasing against this move, but sometimes I find myself trying to fade a runner. Keeping my stop very tight, this seems to produce positive PnL but I don't think the stats would get me through the combine (i.e. 3 small losing trades for each big winner). 

Due to my current circumstances, passing the combine would be my best chance at trading live so I am attempting to develop my trading style with the specific purpose of meeting the TST rules. Any suggestions or constructive criticism would be much appreciated. Thanks.


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## ChaosHedge (15 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> Sorry Chaos, not trying to be cryptic
> 
> I pretty much see my trading essentially as one of or a combination of these 2:
> 
> ...




No worries Havaiana, thanks for explaining this.


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## havaiana (15 August 2013)

ChaosHedge said:


> Due to my current circumstances, passing the combine would be my best chance at trading live so I am attempting to develop my trading style with the specific purpose of meeting the TST rules. Any suggestions or constructive criticism would be much appreciated. Thanks.




IMO if you are really serious about this as a career, the best option is just to use this to improve your trading to the point of profitability then apply to propex. If it's more of a part time type thing then Topstep is fine


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## ChaosHedge (15 August 2013)

havaiana said:


> IMO if you are really serious about this as a career, the best option is just to use this to improve your trading to the point of profitability then apply to propex. If it's more of a part time type thing then Topstep is fine




Hav, thanks for the tip. Getting into propex would be the ultimate goal for me but I know I've still got a lot to learn. I'll try the combine in Sept but for now I'll get back on the SIM and work on those exercises some more. Really appreciate your input. Cheers!


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## CanOz (22 August 2013)

New rules for the combine....


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## havaiana (22 August 2013)

CanOz said:


> New rules for the combine....




These updates they send out kind of give the impression that there are less rules than there actually are and that you just simply do one of these combines and get funded with the same rules. Want to point out to make clear to everyone:

When you pass the combine there are many more rules you need to adhere to in the live trader prep (second combine), junior funded account and funded account.

There is also a time factor, don't think that you will be able to pass the combine in 10 days and start earning money, there is still a lot more to go through

Then there is the size they give you versus the size you could fund yourself with. For example if they tell you when you pass the combine you can trade 5 contracts, the reality is they might allow you to trade 2 of those contracts until you make $500 in a day (then you can't risk 50% or more of that profit), plus you give them 40% of your profits, you are effectively trading 1.2 contracts not 5.

For me personally my performance in the combine and live account was very similar when you take the size difference into consideration. After passing the combine and introducing the new rules my performance in my live account is significantly better than my topstep trader account, even though my live account I only trade 1 quarter of the size. I'm very confident I could earn more trading my personal account with max size of 1 contract versus trading their funded account with 5 contracts plus the rules


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## havaiana (28 August 2013)

This is my final update as I am abandoning my live trader prep

I pointed out on one of the threads before I started that the new rules will reduce my profits by more than half, I figured that being able to trade extra size would make up for it. As it has turned out, my real trading is already reaching a point where I would be making more money than if I traded through Topstep even though I'm still currently only trading a fraction of the size (not to mention trading daylight versus night hours).

I actually stopped devoting much time on it after seeing the difference between the profits in my real account and Topstep account after the first week and have since just been throwing on a big coinflip trade or 2 every night before bed and letting it play out while I sleep. The live trader prep is now down money and although definitely salvageable, I would have to start staying up again and trade it properly with time and energy. It's going to take too long to complete and I could be devoting my time to my real account or other extracurricular activities like this; https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14239&p=790644&viewfull=1#post790644

The best thing about this whole thing is I will never have to do it again

Peace.


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