# Baby Boomers are 25% of the population and control over 50% of the wealth!



## numbercruncher (13 March 2007)

Boomers Ca$h 



> Baby boomers hold half Australia's household wealth and are better financially prepared than many people believe, a report shows.
> 
> The AMP, National Centre for Social and Economic Modelling (NATSEM) report, Baby Boomers - doing it for themselves, reveals four out of five baby boomers own their own homes and hold an average equity in their homes of $161,000 per person.
> 
> The 45-64 year age group makes up about a quarter of the population while three quarters of those have an average net wealth of $381,000 and carry average debt of $59,000 per household, the report found.




So those freeloading Hippies of the 60s by virtue of being born now pretty much own the joint! They not only destroyed the planet enviromentally ignoring global warming for there super fund balance but have left the next generation renting off them to top up the retirement fund and take care of the cleanup.

Boy o boy if i was a 20 something (earning less than 100k pa to service the average mortgage) in this day and age i would be mighty pissed off with my Imperial masters, The Baby Boomers!

Ahh those baby Boomer sob stories of "how tuff we had it" will never sound the same again.

/ready for a flaming.

Peace.


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## professor_frink (13 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Boomers Ca$h
> 
> So those freeloading Hippies of the 60s by virtue of being born now pretty much own the joint! They not only destroyed the planet enviromentally ignoring global warming for there super fund balance but have left the next generation renting off them to top up the retirement fund and take care of the cleanup.
> 
> ...



Couldn't care less  
When I get to 50, I'm sure my generation will have a big % of it too :dance:


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## theasxgorilla (13 March 2007)

*Re: Baby Boomers are 25pc of the Population and control over 50pc of the Wealth !!*

The report is probably correct...I _somewhat_ agree.  SOME baby boomers are far better financially prepared than all this BS journalism would have us believe.  And I think that inspite of all the stats reporting record levels of debt, that on par the baby boomers are far more financially astute than they're given credit for.  Their kids are another story altogether.


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## numbercruncher (13 March 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> Couldn't care less
> When I get to 50, I'm sure my generation will have a big % of it too :dance:




Im sure they will !!

But funnily enough most of the baby boomers will still be alive then, still controlling 50+pc of the Wealth, there parents would of all carked it making them richer ... so baby boomers in 20 years will have say 60-70pc ? Your generation gets 20-30pc ? And those pesky Teens and Pre Teens growing up now get a bone and a **** load of debt and a good old asbestos riddled rental to live in LOL.

I smell trouble a brewin.


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## professor_frink (13 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Im sure they will !!
> 
> But funnily enough most of the baby boomers will still be alive then, still controlling 50+pc of the Wealth, there parents would of all carked it making them richer ... so baby boomers in 20 years will have say 60-70pc ? Your generation gets 20-30pc ? And those pesky Teens and Pre Teens growing up now get a bone and a **** load of debt and a good old asbestos riddled rental to live in LOL.
> 
> I smell trouble a brewin.



In the article, it states that most of the wealth they had was their home, which is hardy worrying for us young folk looking for a piece of the pie. In general terms, it makes them just like any other generation- they own a home, and not much else. So why are the baby boomer generation going to end up so much richer than any other that has come before them?

If anything, our generation may end up having these kinds of articles written about us in 25 years time- we'll own houses,but do it a bit later on in life, and will have superannuation on top of it, which should make us look quite well off compared to the way the boomers look now.


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## billhill (13 March 2007)

All that wealth will have to be passed on when the baby boomers die. So it is going to end up in the hands of the 20 and 30 somethings anyway.


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## numbercruncher (13 March 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> So why are the baby boomer generation going to end up so much richer than any other that has come before them?




Maybe its just me but the Baby Boomers live HEAPS better than the generation before them, as the article says they are 25pc but have 50pc ! They get to salary sacrifice there wages at 15pc tax rate, they are leaps and bounds better off than the generation before them, how many 80 year olds do we see living the life of the Boomers?

Heres another interesting one from the herald sun about Victorian Housing (which isnt the most expensive in the country), But people now need an income of 110k to meet the payments on a Median priced home in Vic, was only 43k 10 year ago....

HERALD SUN


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## Judd (13 March 2007)

Usual issue with such reports is that they simply quote averages.  If one person receives $20k pa and another $100k pa, the average is $60k pa.  I know which side of the average I'd rather be on.

Have a read of this if you wish bearing in mind that the organisation which commissioned the report could have ulterior motives

http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/hilda/Biblio/ophd/natsem_issue7.pdf 

Seems to indicate that a few baby boomers who have very high income/assets in 'retirement' have the ability to distort the averages.

Table 3 on page in relation to the distribution on joint incomes for those between 50-59 where one partner is retired and the other either in the workforce or retired is very interesting.  Where both are retired about 49% had an annual income of $20k or less and 20% had an annual income of $50k or more.  What is a bit concerning is that of those who retired the lump sums in super were largely dissipated.  Reason?  It is highly probable that the money was used to pay off the mortgage. 

All in all, newspaper reports on studies are generally superficial and should be treated with some caution.


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## stoxclimber (13 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> as the article says they are 25pc but have 50pc !




Of course. As with every generation wealth increases with age (until retirement). This really isnt suprising. How much wealth do you expect a 90yo who has been drawing on their super for 30 years has? How about a 25yo who's only been working for 3 years? It's common sense that persons the baby boomer age would be expected to have the greatest wealth.


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> In general terms, it makes them just like any other generation- they own a home, and not much else. So why are the baby boomer generation going to end up so much richer than any other that has come before them?



The Boomers' wealth in housing is, in terms of its financial value, ultimately determined by what the next generation is willing and able to pay for those houses.

The problem / good fortune (depending on which side you look at) here is that under present market conditions those houses are being sold at literally DOUBLE what the Boomers and previous generations paid for them relative to income. That is, the income of generation X and Y is such that they need to work literally twice as long to acquire the exact same asset previously acquired by their parents. 

It's not the end of the world but hardly a "fair" intergenerational situation. It would be fair on an intergenerational basis if those houses were selling for the same or similar multiple of income as they have over the past century or so rather than having doubled in this respect in a short space of time.

Whose fault? Don't blame an entire generation since ultimatley it is the central banks controlling the credit supply. Fighting inflation? Nope - they're the ones that cause it in the first place and they've been doing anything but "fight" it in recent years. Unless you count fighting damn hard to make sure it happens. 

That it is the Boomer generation in charge is simply a function of the reality that those over 50 tend to occupy most positions of real power. Generation X and Y will in due course have exactly the same opportunity to transfer wealth when they reach that age. Whether or not they do so remains to be seen but history shows that if we're still on a fiat currency system then they'll be inflating, the only questions being how fast and with what effects.


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## moses (13 March 2007)

What a selfish childish winge!

The baby boomers only have it so good today because the younger generations earn such incredibly high wages that they can afford to pay ridiculously high rates for labour/skills/houses for the things that the baby boomers had to build/create with their bare hands.


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Heres another interesting one from the herald sun about Victorian Housing (which isnt the most expensive in the country), But people now need an income of 110k to meet the payments on a Median priced home in Vic, was only 43k 10 year ago....



I don't want to hijack this thread into a RE one, but:

That leaves 3 possible options.

1. House prices fall to a level where the present generation of home buyers can actually afford them.

2. Wages rise to bring the average wage up to 110K (average wage, average house - it's just not physicaly possible for 50% of the people to live in the cheapest 10% of the houses etc). 

3. Australians will be forced away from home ownership to the point that someone born today will grow up viewing home ownership in the same way that today's 20 year olds see actually fighting in a major war or owning a collection of vinyl records. Something they are aware their parents or grandparents did but they can't imagine ever doing themselves and will have no real interest in.


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## numbercruncher (13 March 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> The baby boomers only have it so good today because the younger generations earn such incredibly high wages .




They Do ?

Perhaps Doctors, Miners, Plumbers, Lawyers and Electricians do but im pretty sure the majority of youngins have been shafted with a prickly pineapple.


As the article says 110k or less per year you cant afford an average Melbourne home, I know plenty of Boomers earning this and owning there homes as well but im not so sure on those ungrateful Gen Xers and Yers, lazy freeloading buggers for earning such a pittance huh ??

Anyone earning less than 50k should be forced onto the dole so they can get Rent assistance, Medical assistance and all that good stuff  :


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> What a selfish childish winge!
> 
> The baby boomers only have it so good today because the younger generations earn such incredibly high wages that they can afford to pay ridiculously high rates for labour/skills/houses for the things that the baby boomers had to build/create with their bare hands.



I think you'll find that most Boomers purchased their assets with cash (either their own or borrowed) in exactly the same way as subsequent generations. You'd have to go back pre-WW2 to find the masses doing things with their bare hands and by definition Boomers aren't in that category. Indeed the fact that they _didn't_ have to do things themselves is one of the defining aspects of the Boomer and subsequent generations.

It's always easy to give but hard to take away. Nobody gave a damn about the internet 15 years ago but take it away now and watch the economy sink. For that matter, people 120 years ago lived perfectly well without needing cars or electricity - something that most today would find rather difficult. 

Easy to give, hard to take back. That the affordabilty of housing has been partly taken back, all of that in the past decade, is what has many generation X and Y'ers upset. Just as the Boomers (and everyone else) would be upset if their cars, abundant food or electricity supply were taken back. And yet their own grandparents had none of those - it's all relative as people like getting more but hate to ever go backwards.


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## moses (13 March 2007)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> I think you'll find that most Boomers purchased their assets with cash (either their own or borrowed) in exactly the same way as subsequent generations. You'd have to go back pre-WW2 to find the masses doing things with their bare hands and by definition Boomers aren't in that category. Indeed the fact that they _didn't_ have to do things themselves is one of the defining aspects of the Boomer and subsequent generations.




Point taken relative to their parents; however even the baby boomers did have a lot of owner builders building their own homes either because it was the only way they could afford it, or it was the best way to get ahead.



> Easy to give, hard to take back. That the affordabilty of housing has been partly taken back, all of that in the past decade, is what has many generation X and Y'ers upset. Just as the Boomers (and everyone else) would be upset if their cars, abundant food or electricity supply were taken back. And yet their own grandparents had none of those - it's all relative as people like getting more but hate to ever go backwards.




True.

Personal story...my daughter was recently married. She and husband have enormous reserves of wealth compared to what we started with at their age, and are in a much better position to buy a house, car, travel etc. They have elected to take a year off overseas; good on them, great if you can do it. 

But it would be outrageous were they to start complaining that their generation was missing out!!!


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## moses (13 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> They Do ?
> 
> Perhaps Doctors, Miners, Plumbers, Lawyers and Electricians do but im pretty sure the majority of youngins have been shafted with a prickly pineapple.
> 
> ...



And you think a young person starting out should be able to afford an *average* home right away? Start from *average* and where does one go from there?

That pretty well says it all.


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## Julia (13 March 2007)

Oh dear, Number Cruncher, you poor thing!  How disadvantaged and miserable you are.

I'm a baby boomer.  I won't bore you with the hardships I've overcome, as did most of my friends.  What I will say, is that we had a hugely different attitude than your generation.  We understood that standing around whining wouldn't get us anywhere, and I'd support the member who suggested some of us actually got involved in the building of our own homes.  We did when I first got married.

And I simply fail to see what's different about baby boomers as a generation in terms of this report.   My parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all, in their 50's, owned their own homes outright and had some savings.
The difference might be that they didn't go through their young lives throwing money around on Ipods, designer clothes and expensive entertainment.

Sorry, folks, I didn't intend to get on the "things were better in my day"  routine, but I'm just mightily tired of some of the Gen X's and Y's constantly whining about how tough their lives are.  Get over it and get on with it.

Julia.

Glad to see some, e.g. Professor Frink, have a more realistic attitude.
Wouldn't mind betting this individual is taking steps to provide for his future.


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## nioka (13 March 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> And you think a young person starting out should be able to afford an *average* home right away? Start from *average* and where does one go from there?
> 
> That pretty well says it all.



Now there's a thought. If everyone is entitled to start on the average mark there will be no one below average and if there is no one below average then to get the average there can be no one above it either.  
 Utopia at last. ( What a lot of wingers this sort of topic brings out)


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## numbercruncher (13 March 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> And you think a young person starting out should be able to afford an *average* home right away? Start from *average* and where does one go from there?
> 
> That pretty well says it all.




I sure do think that young people should be able to afford an average Home, 100pc i believe that ...

Obviously you dont believe young people should be able to afford an average home?

Tell me when you where in your 20s could you afford a average home? I sure could, each generation SHOULD be better off than the previous generation, You and your parents got to ride the Post War dream, the average young Aussie now gets to Surf one of the largest asset bubbles in History.

Can you seriously not see the imbalance, only 10 years ago a wage of 43k would service the average home, its now 110k, Xers and Yers on average have been denied what you took for granted.

I can forsee boatloads of animosity and anger in Australian society in the coming decades from Xers and Yers, average wages aren't going to go up to 110k ever, and imagine the Inflation if they did, it would actually be hyperinflation.

Only one solution, pop this Realestate bubble just like its popping in the US now, and increase lending standards to take speculators out of this over inflated market and ideally increase interest rates to 10pc +.


That pretty well says it all.


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## chops_a_must (13 March 2007)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> 3. Australians will be forced away from home ownership to the point that someone born today will grow up viewing home ownership in the same way that today's 20 year olds see actually fighting in a major war or owning a collection of vinyl records. Something they are aware their parents or grandparents did but they can't imagine ever doing themselves and will have no real interest in.



STFU lol!

I can list hundreds of reasons why vinyl is better than compact disc. Listening to lo-fi on CD is reminiscent of constipation. Just as well there aren't many indie kids on this forum to shoot you down!

I think the baby boomers will actually end up one of the most destitute generations in retirement. Most will have to sell their homes and assets to fund their nursing home living. And given the choice of baby boomers to elect a party that has torn the nursing home sector up, they will end up having to pay exorbitant fees for their own care. We already have massive shortages in the aged care sector, and this is without the largest demographic group in society being retired.

But this points to a larger problem in society. Traditional jobs that would in past years have been ample to service home loans etc. for example public sector positions, are no longer acceptable for this function. People with university degrees are now among the working poor, which is just rubbish. People are no longer being paid according to the value of their CONTRIBUTION to society, but their immediate wealth creating potential. But you can't have one without the other, and at some point this will crack.

Unless you have an economics or business degree, it has become a real battle to participate in the norms of society. And this is a big break from tradition. Intelligent and highly educated people in society who aren't being paid according to their personal worth sets the scene for intergenerational tension for the young coming up.


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## nioka (13 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> I sure do think that young people should be able to afford an average Home, 100pc i believe that ...
> 
> Obviously you dont believe young people should be able to afford an average home?
> 
> ...



What a lot of rot.


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## numbercruncher (13 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Oh dear, Number Cruncher, you poor thing!  How disadvantaged and miserable you are.




I am? Oh i am !! Of coarse if your not a boomer you must be right? Do you guys still smoke 100 dollar bills?



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> I'm a baby boomer.  I won't bore you with the hardships I've overcome, as did most of my friends. .




Thank god for that, weve heard it all before, baby boomer bread butter and water people.



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> What I will say, is that we had a hugely different attitude than your generation. .




You HAD or you DO? I think you HAD!



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> We understood that standing around whining wouldn't get us anywhere, and I'd support the member who suggested some of us actually got involved in the building of our own homes.  We did when I first got married..




Did you have a home Builders permit? Bet you got a good price for ca$h on that plumber and sparky did yah?? Huh Did yah??

Damn them freeloading Xers for not taking a year off work and building their house themselves on that 300k block of land!



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> And I simply fail to see what's different about baby boomers as a generation in terms of this report.   My parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all, in their 50's, owned their own homes outright and had some savings..




Isnt that sweet, so did mine come to think of it!



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> The difference might be that they didn't go through their young lives throwing money around on Ipods, designer clothes and expensive entertainment..




I bet boomer Business owners profit from this waste of financial resources dontyahthink?



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> Sorry, folks, I didn't intend to get on the "things were better in my day"  routine, but I'm just mightily tired of some of the Gen X's and Y's constantly whining about how tough their lives are.  Get over it and get on with it.
> 
> Julia..




Maybe you should just kill all them nasty freeloading Xers and Yers before they get the chance to save up some cash to afford to have babies?



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> Glad to see some, e.g. Professor Frink, have a more realistic attitude.
> Wouldn't mind betting this individual is taking steps to provide for his future.




They sure do, you guys should hook up and smoke some $100 bills together and ponder what the poor people are upto today huh?


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## moses (13 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> I sure do think that young people should be able to afford an average Home, 100pc i believe that ...
> 
> Obviously you dont believe young people should be able to afford an average home?




When young people have an average wage, borne from average experience and average skills, they will afford an average home. But they won't be young people anymore, most will be of average age.



> Tell me when you where in your 20s could you afford a average home?




No way in the world.

I built my average home in my early 30's. My first house was an old one bedroom cottage that badly needed renovating (which we did).



> I sure could, each generation SHOULD be better off than the previous generation, You and your parents got to ride the Post War dream, the average young Aussie now gets to Surf one of the largest asset bubbles in History.
> 
> Can you seriously not see the imbalance, only 10 years ago a wage of 43k would service the average home, its now 110k, Xers and Yers on average have been denied what you took forgranted.




Sorry, we didn't take owning a home for granted. It was a major challenge, requiring major sacrifices. And incidently, the average home then was half the size of the average home today, with half the bathrooms.



> I can forsee boatloads of animosity and anger in Australian society in the coming decades from Xers and Yers, average wages aren't going to go upto 110k ever, and imagine the Inflation if they did, it would actually be hyperinflation.
> 
> Only one solution, pop this Realestate bubble just like its popping in the US now, and increase lending standards to take speculators out of this over inflated market and ideally increase interest rates to 10pc +.




Ho Hum.

Other solutions include:-

1) live in the country, buy a cheaper than average house
2) buy a smaller than average house
3) buy a cheaper than average house
4) buy a grotty old house cheap and renovate when you can afford it
5) work harder; take on a 2nd job, run a business, work night shifts
6) rent out your first home
7) live longer with parents

But while ever GenX/Y will settle for nothing less than average then average prices will go up and up and up to match their greed. 

Everybody gotta start somewhere, and not even GenX/Y get to start at average.


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## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> What a lot of rot.




Can you do any better than a Boomer one liner, maybe some facts, obviously you disagree with everything i wrote, care to explain why, do you hate the fact that Xers and Yers aren't holding up there end of this realestate Pyramid selling scheme and actually earning 110k to keep it going?

Come on just what is alot of Rot?

Remember Xers and Yers will be your custodians once you age disgracefully and need looking after 24/7 whilst wearing a nappy and dribbling! You really do want these people to be your friend.


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## nioka (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Come on just what is alot of Rot?



Everything you have said on this thread so far.


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## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> Everything you have said on this thread so far.




Denial is the first sign of guilt.

You and your buddies have all but destroyed the worlds ecosystems and caused Global Warming for money, and in your quest for more money youve enslaved your children with debt by taking advantage of the basic Human instinct of seeking shelter. Youve transformed Australia into one of the most expensive countries on the planet for real estate yet you live in denial. You dont even realise youve done all this, but you have, you just rode and stoked the wave.

Even the Goverment is realising the problems but you guys dont?? Dont you guys even remember revolution in the 60s Air, have you changed that much? Freelove and Peace was your mantra, but now it seems its just Money Money Money, even worse than the Greed is good 80s.

Shame on you.

Its just as well the average Australian doesnt consider you an average Australian for your views.

I think Johnnys days are coming to a close, not that the other Major party is much different now, but none the less change is in the Air.


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## insider (14 March 2007)

Well I'm studying to do real estate development... I think that for at least the next two years the market will be be stagnate but usually booms occur in seven year cycles... There are still bargains out there just look for them... I've got my eyes set on a few suburbs... I expect to own my own house fully paid for by 25... that's my reality... Heaps of my mates spend heaps and heaps of cash yet they don't have a single saving... Than they're going to wonder how I was so lucky... It's a matter of prioritizing... But put it this way Most my mates have heaps of fun spending their dough, but what's the worst that can happen, they die without owning their own house... who cares... you started in the world with nothing and you'll finish in the world with nothing... That's reality


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## Kimosabi (14 March 2007)

We've been through these cycles before, we are just going through an Asset Inflation Bubble at the moment which seems to have started deflating in on itself with the US sub-prime housing market imploding in on itself.

The current Asset Inflation Bubble has been caused by Interest Rates being too low for too long and irresponsible lending to people who shouldn't have money lent to them.  Most people have way too much debt, so it has fed on itself going upwards.  Now at some point people are going to run out of equity to take out of their homes and the banks won't provide them with any more debt.

So we are at a point now where things have to start giving.  This is either Asset prices start deflating or Inflation and Wages start going up to make things affordable again.

When this happens the Asset Bubble will start deflating and asset prices will come back to to a realistic level again or Wages are going to have to go up.


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## doctorj (14 March 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> I built my average home in my early 30's. My first house was an old one bedroom cottage that badly needed renovating (which we did).



Just out of curiousity, I had a look at the worst suburb I could think of within a reasonable commute of Perth (50min commute).  The cheapest house I could find in this cheap, dangerous & dodgy housing commission type suburb was $240,000. Interest on that alone is approximately $19kpa.  Your average office worker type is earning, say, $40kpa gross. I don't know of a bank that will lend even enough money to buy what is the cheapest home in the dodgiest suburb (I put some numbers thru some home loan calculators to substantiate that).



			
				moses said:
			
		

> Sorry, we didn't take owning a home for granted. It was a major challenge, requiring major sacrifices.



Renting is becoming harder and harder too.  The majority of people in the 18-28 age bracket have been priced out of the market, meaning the demand for rentals has been going through the roof.  Even if you do manage to find one, expect to be paying a hefty premium for it.



			
				moses said:
			
		

> And incidently, the average home then was half the size of the average home today, with half the bathrooms.



Irrelevant.  The baby boomer generation holds the votes and hence forces the governments to restrict the supply of land to maintain elevated housing prices (as all the baby boomers wealth is generally tied up in property).  I can't speak for other states, but there are generally people camping out for blocks in/around Perth or some kind of auction/raffle system held.  All the land is taken or being held by the government.  Current home buyers cannot control what houses were built on these blocks...




			
				moses said:
			
		

> Ho Hum.
> 
> Other solutions include:-
> 
> ...



1) And teleport to work?
2) Size isn't the issue.  Cost is.  People are at the stage where anything they can afford in being quickly snapped up.
3) See above.
4) See above.
5) Many people already do this.  I know of many young professionals that take on retail jobs on nights/weekends to make some extra pennies.
6) It's baby boomers that own multiple homes.  Most Gen X/Y types would settle for one.
7) That's what happening.  Doesn't stop being labelled as freeloaders by baby boomers in popular media.  In there day, they were out of the house the day after leaving the womb and it was much harder back then and they survived on but a morsel a day to make ends meet, rah rah...
But while ever GenX/Y will settle for nothing less than average then average prices will go up and up and up to match their greed. 



			
				moses said:
			
		

> Everybody gotta start somewhere, and not even GenX/Y get to start at average.



Without exception, everyone here from Gen X/Y are here at ASF because they want to a good start and manage money effectively from an early age.  I haven't seen any gen x/y's demanding laws to bring down property prices or anything like that.  But I'm also yet to see any baby boomers suggest that with the likes of negative gearing they're mortgaging their children's future for their current lifestyle.

To my mind, the baby boomers have benefited greatly from a number of laws/tax rulings that have built them wealth more than might have otherwise been profitable.  The economy, at least when it comes to tax, is a closed system.  The Gen X/Yers have worn the cost and get whacked on the other side with elevated housing/rental prices.

My folks paid approximately 3 times their annual salary for their house/land in an average suburb.  For me, at a similar age to them when they bought that house, will have to pay approximately 5-6 times my annual salary (and I'm not earning anything near 'average') for that very same house today.


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## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

Thanks DoctorJ

I was beginning to think i was alone here lol, I had actually given up on trying to describe the Woes to this poster.

The thing that Bugs me with boomers is they have zero sympathy for their Childrens generation whom they have effectively robbed financially to support their lifestyles.

I myself have made profit from realestate but think no more of Realestate than a Scam and Bubble, but boomers ride it as their retirement fund and bugger the Xers and Ys.

Boomers simply dont understand how long it takes to save the deposit required to start into a home whilst paying todays exhorbitant living costs, thousands of people have now waited to long to even have familys for this housing scam, my advice to average young Australians is forget the house and have a family other wise the boomers will have us virtually extinct by the next generation.

Fancy that, boomers eliminating their unborn grandchildren to continue their realestate pyramid retirement scheme!


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## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> When young people have an average wage, borne from average experience and average skills, they will afford an average home. But they won't be young people anymore, most will be of average age.




Can you not fathom that the Average Wage the Average Age the Average Aussie can no longer (officially) afford the mortgage for an average home?

Until you and your brethen understand this undeniable truth Xers and Ys will be pissed off.


----------



## REA (14 March 2007)

What an interesting forum, I sit here and read that real estate is the worst investment and then wow the tide changes  all the boomers are hanging on to these so called bad investments and controlling over 40% of the wealth.

Well these properties will be sold over the next few years and when we do sell where will the poor live(I mean the really poor not the BMW one overseas trip a year poor) do you think Government will pick up the tab I think not.  Then you will get social upheaval.

It costs $100,OOO+ in NSW in government costs to develop before you buy the land, that is before the farmer is paid ,there is heaps of land developed that is not being sold because it is too dear .  Talk to the governments involved.

Anyway the wealth will pass on to the next generations governments permitting.


----------



## macca (14 March 2007)

BB have 25% of the wealth, seems about right.

I should certainly hope that anyone who has been working for 40 years has accumulated some assets for their retirement.

I can understand that those who are retired and drawing down on any accumulated assets would have less.

I don't understand why those who have been working for 5 years would expect to have the same assets as those who have been working for 45 -50 years.

I would hope that once the next generation has been working for 40 years that they have accumulated some assets for their retirement  .

Looking at the next generation in our family, some will be OK and some will have just a house but only if they change their habits  .

When we look back through history in European societies it is probably more egalitarian now than any time in history. Just 50 years ago in Oz it was common for bank managers, post masters, etc to have house maids, rarely see that now.

Right now, anyone can start a business and if successful climb to the top of the tree without any prejudices to hold them back, great country 

For those looking to buy real estate, just be patient, this is a bubble caused by low interest rates, save your deposits and wait a bit, prices could well come off about 20%, gives you time to save your deposits.

You will need two incomes though, why ? because those that you are vying with to purchase that property, have two incomes and you must pay as much as they will.


----------



## professor_frink (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Julia said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good to see you're making some well informed comments and aren't getting personal about it  

Maybe instead of getting upset, you should be contemplating what you can do about it. Look at the forum's resident boomer knocker, Stop_The_Clock- He spends heaps of time on here complaining about the greedy boomers, and about how unaffordable housing is, yet even he is doing something about it- He's building up quite the impressive super nest egg for somebody his age, and if he continues on that path, will be able to provide for his retirement. There are quite a few people on this forum in their early to mid 20's that have built up pretty substantial share portfolios, and are doing just fine without HAVING to buy a house right now.

The fact that housing is overpriced, and average income earning young people are struggling to get into the market today doesn't mean we will be poor forever. At some stage in the future, the boomers will sell their homes and downsize(and their wealth will start to go down with it), housing will be more affordable, and the young people that are looking after their future financially today will be the ones that can benefit from that.

The fact that shares are so easy to access now, compared with previous generations seems to be lost on some of the younger people today- it provides a whole new set of opportunities that weren't available to the baby boomers, and an alternative way of building wealth outside of the housing market. If your smart, you won't go without. If you spend all of your time complaining about how bad it is for our generation, and aren't doing anything to help yourself, you'll be left behind. Pretty simple really


----------



## Lucky (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher were you unloved as a child?  didn't you get enough attention from mummy and daddy?

If you want to blame someone for all your ills and woes blame your folks mate, cause it certainly sounds like they're the root cause of all your problems.


----------



## Kimosabi (14 March 2007)

Well I think we should lead a revolution and refuse to buy the Baby Boomers over-inflated assets.  Don't go after the prices, let the prices come to you...

I think NSW and Vic are about six months to a year behind the US Property Bust and WA, Queensland and NT will be about 1 - 2 years.

If it wasn't for the commodities boom, Australia would be in recession.


----------



## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

Lucky said:
			
		

> numbercruncher were you unloved as a child?  didn't you get enough attention from mummy and daddy?
> 
> If you want to blame someone for all your ills and woes blame your folks mate, cause it certainly sounds like they're the root cause of all your problems.




Here we go, another uninformed Bubble Surfin Boomer playing psychologist.

Have a long hard word with yourself mate.

And dont assume for one minute that my personal financial situation is reflected in my opinion about the realestate Bubble and the predicament you have placed Xers and Ys in.

I have a genuine concern for Australias younger generation unlike a growing number of you boomers whom care about nothing other than stripping society down to its last dollar, and leaving everyone else to clean up the mess.


----------



## Prospector (14 March 2007)

Well, when I started working many light years ago, my employer certainly didnt put an additional 9% of my salary away for me for my retirement. I also worked a 40 hour week, no paid maternity leave, and parenting leave?  What was that? 

The number of improvements made to entitlements over the last 15 years have been huge - and I was told old to get the benefits of most of them.

Dont tell me the Baby boomers get it all their own way!

As for global warming, well, that is a pet subject of mine.  There has always been global warming; always.  Mother nature has way more influence than mankind ever will.  Next thing you will be blaming boomers for the extinction of the dinosaurs.


----------



## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> Well I think we should lead a revolution and refuse to buy the Baby Boomers over-inflated assets.  Don't go after the prices, let the prices come to you...
> 
> I think NSW and Vic are about six months to a year behind the US Property Bust and WA, Queensland and NT will be about 1 - 2 years.
> 
> If it wasn't for the commodities boom, Australia would be in recession.




Exactly. The property Pyramid scheme is slowly but surely unravelling.

If and or when this commodites boom ends unfortunatly Australia is in for one hell of a recession. A deflationary Recession will help inject fairness back into Australian realestate.


----------



## krisbarry (14 March 2007)

I am not going to buy into this thread, those that have been long-term members of this site know my feelings about *some* baby boomers.

These *some* baby boomers that I am talking about make me sick...got to have 98 homes...at whatever cost, while 97 families live in tents.

Its filthy, its sick, and its nothing but damn greedy  

....off course there are many who have just worked damn hard and own a pretty average wealth, thats kewl with me, and well done!


----------



## nioka (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Denial is the first sign of guilt
> 
> Shame on you.



No guilt or shame here. I'm not ashamed that I was born in the great depression, That my father died when I was 2 leaving my mum with 3 kids. There was no social security. I started work at 9 delivering milk in a horse and cart before and after school. When I was old enough I had no choice but to start work. I,m not ashamed about that BUT I NEVER COMPLAINED EITHER.
Rented, paying half my wage, for 5 years after I married, still saved a few bob each week towards a block of land. By working an extra job and building my own home brick by brick I finally got ahead. It took me 20 years to get there

IT IS YOU WHO SHOULD BE ASHAMED.


----------



## chops_a_must (14 March 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> Maybe instead of getting upset, you should be contemplating what you can do about it. Look at the forum's resident boomer knocker, Stop_The_Clock- He spends heaps of time on here complaining about the greedy boomers, and about how unaffordable housing is, yet even he is doing something about it- He's building up quite the impressive super nest egg for somebody his age, and if he continues on that path, will be able to provide for his retirement. There are quite a few people on this forum in their early to mid 20's that have built up pretty substantial share portfolios, and are doing just fine without HAVING to buy a house right now.
> 
> The fact that housing is overpriced, and average income earning young people are struggling to get into the market today doesn't mean we will be poor forever. At some stage in the future, the boomers will sell their homes and downsize(and their wealth will start to go down with it), housing will be more affordable, and the young people that are looking after their future financially today will be the ones that can benefit from that.



Is anyone else in their early 20s actually rubbing their hands together over this? I'm hoping to snap up property (along with a few I know) after just about everyone in Perth goes bust. This will all be insignificant in another few years. There is opportunity in the misery of other people.


----------



## Kimosabi (14 March 2007)

Well, I thing the term Baby Boomers is quite appropriate, we might have to call them Baby Busters once the current Asset Bubble gets deflated and they see the value of their Retirement funds disappear in a puff of smoke.

Now as far as Gen Xer's and Yer's are concerned, they need to avoid debt, and get some cash in the bank so they are ready to buy up big in the Over-Leveraged Baby Busters Asset Fire Sale.


----------



## professor_frink (14 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Is anyone else in their early 20s actually rubbing their hands together over this? I'm hoping to snap up property (along with a few I know) after just about everyone in Perth goes bust. This will all be insignificant in another few years. There is opportunity in the misery of other people.



Chops, I'm on the east coast, so we've been tanking for quite awhile now. And yes, hands are being rubbed together, as I start to notice houses in the lower end of the market in my area going for 5-6 times the average wage 
Hopefully that will continue, and Mrs Frink and I will be able to find something at a fairly resonable price later on this year


----------



## nioka (14 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> Well, I thing the term Baby Boomers is quite appropriate, we might have to call them Baby Busters once the current Asset Bubble gets deflated and they see the value of their Retirement funds disappear in a puff of smoke.
> 
> Now as far as Gen Xer's and Yer's are concerned, they need to avoid debt, and get some cash in the bank so they are ready to buy up big in the Over-Leveraged Baby Busters Asset Fire Sale.



Maybe it is the other way around with the Gen Xers and Yers deep in debt with credit cards and leveraged loans seeing their ambitions pushed further into the distance. The older generation may have saved a little better and are not so inclined to panic but to adjust.


----------



## Kimosabi (14 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Is anyone else in their early 20s actually rubbing their hands together over this? I'm hoping to snap up property (along with a few I know) after just about everyone in Perth goes bust. This will all be insignificant in another few years. There is opportunity in the misery of other people.




I'm in a difficult position at the moment, the woman that owns the apartment I'm living in at the moment is thinking of selling after June 30, which would probably mean either paying more rent (Which is really cheap for where we are living) for the place we are in or getting kicked out, depends on new owners.

So the options are keep renting or Buy.  If I'm going to buy, it needs to be in the next two months because I think we may see some Panic Selling from Baby Boomers trying dump Properties to put funds into Super.  The other option is keep renting on the premise that there will be a Real Estate Bust in Perth in the next year or two.


----------



## krisbarry (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher, I understand your thoughts.  

But you are wasting your time...a few similar threads thrashed out all these thoughts over the past 2 years.  

This thread is getting the same results. zilch!

Same people taking the same sides, and the merry-go-round continues.

Look I am just as pis_sed off as the next person, but I am taking all my frustrations and turning them into a positive outcome.

Just do what I have done and pi_ss off the baby boomers by not buying their over-priced houses and trade on the market instead and dump your profits into a super fund.

At some point if enough young people are wise enough not to buy all this over-priced housing, then the prices will fall and fall hard.


----------



## Lucky (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Here we go, another uninformed Bubble Surfin Boomer playing psychologist.
> 
> Have a long hard word with yourself mate.
> 
> ...




I'm an X'er mate.  The world doesn't owe you ****, stop complaining, get off your ass and do something about it.  All your moaning about how boomers have this and X and Y's don't have that just make you sound like a prig.

Mate you're on a stock forum, it's about the purest form of capitalism you will find.  If you're so concerned about the planet join Greenpeace and save the whales or better still if you're concerned about your fellow X and Y'ers financial well being, start a club or support group to educate them on Finance 101.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2007)

moses said:
			
		

> And you think a young person starting out should be able to afford an *average* home right away? Start from *average* and where does one go from there?
> 
> That pretty well says it all.



I remember my boss buying a house roughly 8 years ago that cost 4 times his income at the time. I am now doing the exact same job and it would cost 7 times my income to buy that or a very similar house in the same area at current prices. 

Housing is less affordable than it was for the previous generation - that's the issue. Something has been taken back and that is never popular.


----------



## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

Have you guys noticed how the plethora of Realestate shows (reno rescue etc) that beamed one after the other through every TV channel have now vanished? After they fanned the realestate bubble, every single one has quietly vanished into a puff of smoke.

Thats a ominous indicator that the scam is up!


----------



## Julia (14 March 2007)

Doctorj, number cruncher, and others who are expressing such personal antagonism to baby boomers:

what, exactly, would you like us to do?

Julia


----------



## Sean K (14 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Doctorj, number cruncher, and others who are expressing such personal antagonism to baby boomers:
> 
> what, exactly, would you like us to do?
> 
> Julia



Can I have a loan?


----------



## doctorj (14 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Doctorj, number cruncher, and others who are expressing such personal antagonism to baby boomers



It's not personal and I'm sorry you've taken it as such, that is definately not my intention.  Boomers are simply taking advantage of the opportunities afforded to them.  I'd be a liar if I said I wouldn't do the same. It's just unfortunate that the following generations are copping the negative effects of it.



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> what, exactly, would you like us to do?



Nothing.  Overall, I'd like to see negative gearing, stamp duty and first home owners grants abolished so the free market can do its thing.  As a boomer, these things aren't you fault, however they exist today to win/retain votes from a number of your generation who have significant pecentages of their net worth in property and would be much worse off without such laws.


----------



## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Doctorj, number cruncher, and others who are expressing such personal antagonism to baby boomers:
> 
> what, exactly, would you like us to do?
> 
> Julia




The antagonism is a direct result of the boomers whom are in denial. It takes a wage of 110k to afford the average home in Melbourne and worse in other states. Only 10 years ago it was 43k.

We expect nothing. We request that you recognize the obvious, that there is a serious problem/imbalance in Australian housing and its pricing.

We know its the Governments fault as much as anyones, each new block of land has more than 50k in State Government fees, its a joke.

Australia is a continent virtually the size of mainland usa, we live on less tha .5pc of the land, current house/land prices are obviously the largest scam pulled over Australians in history.


A Generation of renters is what is being made, Xers and Yers are realising that home ownership is not financially viable.

I beleive this is eventually going to put an enormous strain on the tax system, the government loses Billions to negative gearing whilst a growing number of young drop house ownership in favor of salary sacrificing effectively having a tax rate of 15pc. Another enormous and growing number of young people start familys and disengage themselves from the workforce  because its financially more effective to get parenting payments rent assistance, free medical and the likes and take cash jobs.

This boom is creating more and more problems for the wider community.


Just recognise it.


----------



## Prospector (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Have you guys noticed how the plethora of Realestate shows (reno rescue etc) that beamed one after the other through every TV channel have now vanished? After they fanned the realestate bubble, every single one has quietly vanished into a puff of smoke.
> 
> Thats a ominous indicator that the scam is up!




I absolutely agree with you there!      We were only saying on the weekend that we think one of the reasons why real estate prices soared is because of programmes like 'Hot Property'   etc, and the Real Estate agents telling people they could expect to pay/receive values 000's in excess of what they may have originally thought.  

So between the two of them, prices soared and people just expected they would have to pay that, and mortgaged themselves to the hilt, or couldnt buy!

Sooooo, doesnt it therefore mean that it wasnt Baby boomers fault that prices surged?  I am betting a few of the lucky ones who bought, remodelled with a lick of paint and then sold, are more likely to be people in their 30's, not their 60's!


----------



## Kimosabi (14 March 2007)

Prospector said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree with you there!      We were only saying on the weekend that we think one of the reasons why real estate prices soared is because of programmes like 'Hot Property'   etc, and the Real Estate agents telling people they could expect to pay/receive values 000's in excess of what they may have originally thought.
> 
> So between the two of them, prices soared and people just expected they would have to pay that, and mortgaged themselves to the hilt, or couldnt buy!
> 
> Sooooo, doesnt it therefore mean that it wasnt Baby boomers fault that prices surged?  I am betting a few of the lucky ones who bought, remodelled with a lick of paint and then sold, are more likely to be people in their 30's, not their 60's!




They had exactly the same thing happening in the US and look where it's got them so far.

It's time to pay off the debt's, get as much money in the Bank as you can, sit out the storm and start picking up the bargains when everyone else is in the depths of despair.

The most important thing to be doing at the moment is identifying the bust indicators so you know when to get out during the next Boom/Bust Cycle.

This will keep happening time and time again, everyone thinks that the boom will never end, that it's different this time or panic that they will miss out if the don't get in now.

I'll be getting into Property and Shares in a BIG way when every else says that I'm mad to be getting into Property and Shares, the hardest trick will be trying to identify bottom of the Market.


----------



## nioka (14 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> I'll be getting into Property and Shares in a BIG way when every else says that I'm mad to be getting into Property and Shares, the hardest trick will be trying to identify bottom of the Market.



What if this IS the bottom of the market?


----------



## theasxgorilla (14 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> What if this IS the bottom of the market?




What a wonderfully thought provoking question...indeed, what if?  It's not a possibility that gets explored very often.


----------



## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> What if this IS the bottom of the market?




But what if its the absolute peak, and despite the signs people remain indebted, geared and illogically optimistic like chickens waiting for the slaughter?


----------



## Julia (14 March 2007)

kennas said:
			
		

> Can I have a loan?



Kennas,

Certainly.  I have my image of greed to maintain, however.
The interest rate will be 10%

Cheers
Julia


----------



## Julia (14 March 2007)

doctorj said:
			
		

> It's not personal and I'm sorry you've taken it as such, that is definately not my intention.  Boomers are simply taking advantage of the opportunities afforded to them.  I'd be a liar if I said I wouldn't do the same. It's just unfortunate that the following generations are copping the negative effects of it.




OK, thanks for acknowledging you would do the same.  It just often comes across as though we baby boomers purposely set out to make life hard for the next generation.  I'd genuinely suggest that we were the product of our parents who had weathered the Great Depression, had gradually experienced the affluence of the post-war era, and instilled in us the need to work really hard to achieve what was not wealth, but simply a sense of security with our own homes.  



			
				doctorj said:
			
		

> Nothing.  Overall, I'd like to see negative gearing, stamp duty and first home owners grants abolished so the free market can do its thing.  As a boomer, these things aren't you fault, however they exist today to win/retain votes from a number of your generation who have significant pecentages of their net worth in property and would be much worse off without such laws.




I'm not sure that it's only baby boomers who enjoy the benefits of negative gearing etc.  I think it's more likely that most of us don't have the energy to endure the frustrations of bad tenants, low returns etc, and have therefore put money into the share market, thus pushing up SP's to the benefit of all of you younger people who presumably are part of this forum because you are participating in the market.

Don't think that we do not acknowledge the reality of how hard it is for young people to afford home ownership these days.  I really feel sympathetic in most cases.

Another factor which should be considered in this debate is that fewer of the baby boomers than today's generation in their late teens and early 20's were seeking/receiving a university education.  Most of us began work as soon as we finished high school.  I didn't go to university until I was in my 30's.  So we had neither the expenses of a tertiary education or the loss of income because we were studying rather than working full time.

So, yes, we accept your situation is difficult.  However, to constantly be the object of criticism that we have caused your problems becomes a little unreasonable.

I wish all of you lots of energy, determination, good planning, and a positive attitude.

Julia


----------



## robert toms (14 March 2007)

I bet that there statistics that show that the richest, say, ten percent hold well over fifty percent of this countries' wealth...what is it... lies, damn lies and statistics!


----------



## theasxgorilla (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> But what if its the absolute peak, and despite the signs people remain indebted, geared and illogically optimistic like chickens waiting for the slaughter?




Whilst I don't have time to find supporting evidence, I really don't think it's the boomers who have geared themselves silly.  Gen X and Y, particularly Gen Y seems to be the ones most comfortable with 5%/no-deposit/low-doc loans, credit cards, and interest free.

Even if what you describes manifests I expect the boomers will hold assets and the younger generations will hold the wrong side of IOUs.


----------



## Kimosabi (14 March 2007)

The best solution is buy Medical/Biotech/Nursing Home Stocks and get the money out the Boomers that way.

Also, we will inherit their wealth at some point and then the younger generations will be blaming us for making everything so expensive.

Me, I'm just going to become part of the problem.


----------



## robandcoll (14 March 2007)

*Also, we will inherit their wealth at some point and then the younger generations will be blaming us for making everything so expensive*

There is a saying amongst us Baby Boomers.  SKI.  Spend the kids inheritence.


----------



## professor_frink (14 March 2007)

robandcoll said:
			
		

> *Also, we will inherit their wealth at some point and then the younger generations will be blaming us for making everything so expensive*
> 
> There is a saying amongst us Baby Boomers.  SKI.  Spend the kids inheritence.



I hear that one from my mum on a regular basis- I keep telling her if she manages to do it, I'll put her in one of those top quality nursing homes later on in life when she's broke- the ones you hear about on A Current Affair


----------



## Judd (14 March 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> Chops, I'm on the east coast, so we've been tanking for quite awhile now. And yes, hands are being rubbed together, as I start to notice houses in the lower end of the market in my area going for 5-6 times the average wage
> Hopefully that will continue, and Mrs Frink and I will be able to find something at a fairly resonable price later on this year




Y'know professor, the thing that worries me most with that statement is that it is probably not the BBs which are/will be going under in regard to housing but younger people who went down the 95%+ route - and who aimed for the 5 bedroom, four car garage, sauna, spa plus the latest matching his/hers BMW bikes with room for the jet-skis.

Note:  I'm 48 and just on the cusp of being a BB so I reckon I can make the same exaggerated, unrepresentative statements about Gen's X/Y/A/AAB/AO/M as those groups have a right to make about BBs.


----------



## professor_frink (14 March 2007)

Judd said:
			
		

> Y'know professor, the thing that worries me most with that statement is that it is probably not the BBs which are/will be going under in regard to housing but younger people who went down the 95%+ route - and who aimed for the 5 bedroom, four car garage, sauna, spa plus the latest matching his/hers BMW bikes with room for the jet-skis.



I'd say you'd be on the money there Judd. Generally, I'd feel for anyone that gets themselves into trouble trying to put a roof over their head. The kind of people you've described above don't qualify for such sympathies though.
Thankfully, I can only think of one person I know that has carried on in the way you've described- and I wouldn't have the slightest bit of sympathy for them if they lost a lot of money when they sell(which funnily enough, they are trying to do now).


			
				Judd said:
			
		

> Note:  I'm 48 and just on the cusp of being a BB so I reckon I can make the same exaggerated, unrepresentative statements about Gen's X/Y/A/AAB/AO/M as those groups have a right to make about BBs.



Na sorry mate, you don't qualify for BB status.No such statements are allowed to come out of your mouth at all


----------



## theasxgorilla (14 March 2007)

robandcoll said:
			
		

> *Also, we will inherit their wealth at some point and then the younger generations will be blaming us for making everything so expensive*
> 
> There is a saying amongst us Baby Boomers.  SKI.  Spend the kids inheritence.




Thankfully for society there is a saying in government, GST.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2007)

It would go an awfully long way toward easing the divide if the Boomers would simply acknowledge that their real estate profits have come at a massive social cost to younger generations.

Boomers paid 3 times their income for a house and then had the benefit of high inflation rapidly eroding the value of the debt. In practice they only ended up paying perhaps 1 or 2 year's worth of actual earnings plus interest for the house given the high rates of wage inflation in the 70's and 80's.

Now Generation Y faces paying 7 times their income for the exact same standard of house and lacks the benefit of rampant wage inflation eroding thier debt. They actually end up having to pay back much of that loan with genuine earnings rather than seeing inflation erode its value. 

They may well be able to do it, and I agree with comments about wasteful spending, but they are clearly worse off than their parents were at the same age, buying the same type of house and working in a similar job. 

The first step in solving any problem is acknowledging that it exists.


----------



## The Red Baron (14 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Is anyone else in their early 20s actually rubbing their hands together over this? I'm hoping to snap up property (along with a few I know) after just about everyone in Perth goes bust. This will all be insignificant in another few years. There is opportunity in the misery of other people.




I guess you could say i'm waiting on the sidelines. I'm a 24yr old living in Perth with parents. Over the past 5 years saved $60k and now working 2 jobs 12hrs a day mon-fri trying to put away $400-500 a week. I'd say could be there another 2 years, trying to get to the $100k mark before I leave. Sure people could say i'm freeloading but I pay my board, get along well with the olds and if I was renting i'd be lucky to save $100-200 a week. 

In a bit of an odd situation however. Parents have 3 investments properties, 2 in Perth, one just bought in Brisbane. The recent rates rises have made it all a bit tight. I was hoping they would sell one a few months back and put it into Super. But now they want to loan some money off me, or offer me a share in the properties (at current market value). As much as I want to help out. a.) I wouldn't consider buying in the Perth market and b.) Want to use the money for an opportunity if one arises

The scary thing at the moment is seeing my young brothers mates. 18yrs old, buying $50,000 utes and buying 3 year interest free plasmas, $150 a month mobile plans while earning their $20k a year. They can get loans easier than me and for as much as they like. I've got my brother saving $50 a week into an online account just to understand compounding interest and get on the right track.

Its all a bit crazy, I can't imagine these are going to be the people in a few years time trying to finance $600,000 for an average Perth house. I know I sure can't do it.


----------



## insider (14 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Is anyone else in their early 20s actually rubbing their hands together over this? I'm hoping to snap up property (along with a few I know) after just about everyone in Perth goes bust. This will all be insignificant in another few years. There is opportunity in the misery of other people.




I'm only 20 and I'm studying to do real estate development and I'm kicking a*** in the share market... why? Because I'm no sheep and I choose not to go to the slaughter... Yeah we can all have our sob stories of how 60 years ago how I had to work at the factory at the age of 12 and blah blah and support this and that... (mind you I'm currently working 5 unpaid days a week helping my parents out and going to Uni 5 days a week doing 9 subjects (and getting HDs)) I'm not going to cry about it, but I'm proud of it... I soldier on and get the task done... I look at the current housing situation and look for solutions... I'm rubbing my hands together... What separates us is that we think laterally... 

Hey I was just thinking a really good realestate opportunity would be to buy housing close to mines that are on the verge of opening... Imagine buying a shell of a house for $60,000 and then selling it at $200,000... nice


----------



## insider (14 March 2007)

The Red Baron said:
			
		

> Its all a bit crazy, I can't imagine these are going to be the people in a few years time trying to finance $600,000 for an average Perth house. I know I sure can't do it.




Neither do I that's why I think it'll come down to two things... housing market slumps or a very long time until the housing market picks up pace again.


----------



## insider (14 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> OK, thanks for acknowledging you would do the same.  It just often comes across as though we baby boomers purposely set out to make life hard for the next generation.  I'd genuinely suggest that we were the product of our parents who had weathered the Great Depression, had gradually experienced the affluence of the post-war era, and instilled in us the need to work really hard to achieve what was not wealth, but simply a sense of security with our own homes.
> 
> I'm not sure that it's only baby boomers who enjoy the benefits of negative gearing etc.  I think it's more likely that most of us don't have the energy to endure the frustrations of bad tenants, low returns etc, and have therefore put money into the share market, thus pushing up SP's to the benefit of all of you younger people who presumably are part of this forum because you are participating in the market.
> 
> ...




Once upon a time wasn't University free? It sure was... The average uni subject per semester today costs about $2500... Uni at full time is 4 subjects a semester which equates to hecs debt of $20,000 a year... Boy I just realized that young people have it really really hard... No wonder every one is complaining... So by the time we finish uni we are already in debt... lol... it's not funny  :... 



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> I wish all of you lots of energy, determination, good planning, and a positive attitude.
> 
> Julia




Thanks some of us are going to need some of that.


----------



## wayneL (14 March 2007)

Look to history, these things are cyclical.

OP had it right about letting the market come to you. You don't have to buy a house RIGHT NOW! They will become relatively cheaper at some point in the future.

Meanwhile, renting is a freakin' bargain, even with recent rises.


----------



## nioka (14 March 2007)

Good news on Perth prices. My daughter and son in law have just sold a Perth home for $500,000. They bought another in the same estate for $390,000. I asked the difference and the answer was "no pool or gardens". They will soon have a pool and a garden and a very small mortgage.They are a little out of town but that is the way they wanted it (room for a pony)


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 March 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1871864.htm
surprise surprise - the generation who make up one third the credit card holders also responsible for one third the defaults.  My guess is that the super-oldies who make up 2% of the card holders are also responsible for 2% of the defaults (?)   


> Gen Y likely to be big users of credit: Those in the so-called generation Y are shaping up as the most active users of credit.   The leading credit reference agency Veda Advantage says 18 to 27-year-olds *were responsible for nearly a third of all credit card applications last year*.
> 
> The agency's Erica Hughes says they made up a big slice of default listings too.  "We're also seeing that this generation *is also responsible for about a third of all defaults* that were listed on our database in 2006," she said.
> 
> ...



PS _ I feel sorry for generation Y - as you say Smurf - trying to get into the housing market etc., paying for their education on the never never


----------



## Buster (14 March 2007)

numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Ahh those baby Boomer sob stories of "how tuff we had it" will never sound the same again.



Uuuughh.. So instead we are once again subjected to the "how tuff us we have it" thread...  give it a rest..   Whilst I’m not entirely sure where I fit in, (certainly not old enough for the BB tag) these EMO threads are becoming tiresome..



			
				numbercruncher said:
			
		

> We expect nothing..



Hmmm.. I find that very difficult to believe.. in fact if I have read these posts correctly it sounds like you (royal, not ‘you’ you..) want Government (Federal and State) fees and taxes abolished, and negative gearing tax benefit removed.    



			
				numbercruncher said:
			
		

> Australia is a continent virtually the size of mainland usa, we live on less tha .5pc of the land, current house/land prices are obviously the largest scam pulled over Australians in history..



Yep.. and I’m sure you are smart enough to see that development and infrastructure costs (you know, things like public transport, water, hospitals, schools etc etc..) are easier on the pockets of 300 Million people, like mainland USA, vice 20 million..  further examples are places like India and Pakistan, everything is cheap.. including life

We have a high standard of living here, and of course Taxes and Fee’s are required to support this.. 

As far as removing the Negative Gearing Tax Benefit, that was tried some time ago, didn’t take too long to reintroduce it.. Rather than spoon feed you I’ll leave it to you research the reasons why.. [HINT: Paul Keating] I note that you don’t seem too fussed about the tax dollars that go to First Home Owners or the Baby Bonus, the change to CGT and how these may have fuelled the property market.  I’m tipping that if the government gave $14K to everyone to invest in the stockmarket you’d see a similar ‘boom’.

Your response to Julia at post #22 speaks volumes in regard to your present level of maturity.  I can tell you for certain that you’re not likely to get far in life with a childish attitude like that..

And then theres this..



			
				Chops a Must said:
			
		

> Is anyone else in their early 20s actually rubbing their hands together over this? I'm hoping to snap up property (along with a few I know) after just about everyone in Perth goes bust. This will all be insignificant in another few years. There is opportunity in the misery of other people.



Oh woe is us, how we suffer. Yet can’t wait to screw somebody over..  You guys crack me up..  

Cheers,

Buster

P.S there’s a reason home ownership here in Australia, for as long as I can remember anyway, has been labelled the ‘Great Australian Dream’..


----------



## ROE (14 March 2007)

Every generation can make money and then some more....All you need is hard work, spend less save more.


----------



## wayneL (14 March 2007)

It's a fine line in a topic like this, but lets try to leave out the _argumentum ad hominem_ (playing the man and not the ball)

Cheers


----------



## professor_frink (14 March 2007)

> Gen Y likely to be big users of credit: Those in the so-called generation Y are shaping up as the most active users of credit. The leading credit reference agency Veda Advantage says 18 to 27-year-olds were responsible for nearly a third of all credit card applications last year.
> 
> The agency's Erica Hughes says they made up a big slice of default listings too. "We're also seeing that this generation is also responsible for about a third of all defaults that were listed on our database in 2006," she said.
> 
> ...



It's interesting that us GenY's have 1/3 of all the credit cards, have 1/3 of defaults, yet we can't manage credit  

If the rest of the population has 2/3 of the credit card debt, and also has 2/3 of of the defaults, how are they any better or worse than us young folk when it comes to credit cards :dunno:


----------



## numbercruncher (14 March 2007)

professor_frink said:
			
		

> It's interesting that us GenY's have 1/3 of all the credit cards, have 1/3 of defaults, yet we can't manage credit
> 
> If the rest of the population has 2/3 of the credit card debt, and also has 2/3 of of the defaults, how are they any better or worse than us young folk when it comes to credit cards :dunno:




I thinks the point is that GenYs are disproportionally represented by the fact that they are 1/3rd of credit card ownership but no where near 1/3rd of the population.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 March 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> try to leave out "the argumentum ad hominem" (playing the man and not the ball)



and for that matter, let's leave out the Italian soccer team tactic (world cup quarterfinal?)  "la prima donna oscar awarde"  = rolling round like a girl instead of playing the ball. 

PS re Gen Y, I have always thought that union policy of "last in first out" - which effectively protects BB 's jobs - was tough on gen Y (and youngsters) . Interesting to see what comes out in this election year on that score. 

PPS - would be interesting to know what percentage of the population DOESN'T have a credit card?   (self funded retirees maybe?, kids under 8? lol)


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> We have a high standard of living here, and of course Taxes and Fee’s are required to support this..




Exactly. Though I'm concerned that we aren't investing (either public or privately owned) anywhere near enough in the infrastructure we'll need for the future. 

This alone represents a massive intergenerational issue IMO. The Boomers and generation X have basically been living off and slowly running down the infrastructure capital invested by the previous generation - effectively taking without giving. 

Only now with rail, water and hospitals in crisis and electricity and roads stretched to the limit in various parts of the country are we starting to wake up to reality. Sooner or later we're faced with a massive bill to not only add new infrastructure, but refurbish or replace that which already exists. 

I don't expect we'll do anything serious about it untill there's an outright crisis though.


----------



## theasxgorilla (14 March 2007)

The Red Baron said:
			
		

> Sure people could say i'm freeloading but I pay my board, get along well with the olds and if I was renting i'd be lucky to save $100-200 a week.




I'd never say you're freeloading...just biding your time and being smart until you gain real traction.  Sounds to me like you're well on your way.  And if you get along with the folks, all the better.



			
				The Red Baron said:
			
		

> Its all a bit crazy, I can't imagine these are going to be the people in a few years time trying to finance $600,000 for an average Perth house. I know I sure can't do it.




You'll be surprised what a dual income can do.


----------



## theasxgorilla (14 March 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> It's a fine line in a topic like this, but lets try to leave out the _argumentum ad hominem_ (playing the man and not the ball)
> 
> Cheers




This advice holds relevant for posting within the thread, and for those who believe they are affected BY the topic of the thread.  KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL!  (not the man (or woman), as Wayne says).  The coach would pull you from the field if you gave away a goal because you were busy complaining to the umpire instead of playing the ball.  Be your own coach.

I hope that is not too cryptic, it made sense to me.


----------



## robandcoll (14 March 2007)

The Red Baron said:
			
		

> Its all a bit crazy, I can't imagine these are going to be the people in a few years time trying to finance $600,000 for an average Perth house. I know I sure can't do it.




Little ironic isnt it with todays downturn in the markets. US housing problems and lending institutions. Housing equity etc. It is going to happen over here as well. There was a post earlier on about someone rubbing his hand together as the price of his kept going up. What can you do with it. Increase your equity? Sell and upgrade - increase the mortgage I suppose. My advice if you own a house in Perth is sell now. Invest wisely and return to the market in 2 years.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 March 2007)

Lets have a reality check here.
Gen X and Y are spoiled by expectation.
BB's of which I am one, just rode the wave.
We were lucky.
Our parents grandparents and g grandparents were not.
I cannot remember worrying about future earnings, interest rates etc as an 18 yo.
I did have a connection to my past however.
I talked to and knew people who had it tough, during ww2 and the depression.
I have little sympathy for young people who tie their future to a $500 or $600,000 house.
Again I state, our generation were lucky.

Garpal


----------



## wayneL (14 March 2007)

Garpal Gumnut said:
			
		

> I have little sympathy for young people who tie their future to a $500 or $600,000 house.



On that theme, but sorta off at a tangent, here's a couple of interesting books:

Infinite Self - Stuart Wilde 

Status Anxiety - Alain De Botton 

From opposite ends of the spectrum but both arrive at the same sort of conclusion


----------



## Julia (14 March 2007)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> The Boomers and generation X have basically been living off and slowly running down the infrastructure capital invested by the previous generation - effectively taking without giving.




Smurf:

Could you explain just exactly what we baby boomers should have been doing on a personal basis to not "run down the infrastructure capital".

How, exactly, have we been "taking without giving".  We've paid plenty of taxes and surely it's up to successive governments to ensure the maintenance of and provision for future infrastructure.  

And on the subject ot "taking without giving", that is frankly an extremely judgmental and erroneous generalisation.  I've given a great deal of my time and energy (and some skills I hope) to the community on a purely voluntary basis  since I was in my mid 30's, continue to do so now, as do most of my friends.
I'd really like you to be specific as to just what you think we should have been doing to date and what you think we should be doing now and in the future, and why.

Julia


----------



## Uncle Festivus (14 March 2007)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> Only now with rail, water and hospitals in crisis and electricity and roads stretched to the limit in various parts of the country are we starting to wake up to reality. Sooner or later we're faced with a massive bill to not only add new infrastructure, but refurbish or replace that which already exists.
> 
> I don't expect we'll do anything serious about it untill there's an outright crisis though.




Don't worry Smurf, private equity will come to the rescue.  Maybe privatise electricity in NSW?


----------



## wayneL (14 March 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> On that theme, but sorta off at a tangent, here's a couple of interesting books:
> 
> Infinite Self - Stuart Wilde
> 
> ...



This one could be a good read too:

The Art of Happiness: Or, the Teachings of Epicurus 

Epicurus was cool, I think I'll buy this one  

What's it to do with BBs, Xs, Ys and wealth? I think a lot.


----------



## Julia (14 March 2007)

doctorj said:
			
		

> The baby boomer generation holds the votes and hence forces the governments to restrict the supply of land to maintain elevated housing prices (as all the baby boomers wealth is generally tied up in property).




How do you come to this conclusion?  Your generation and others than the baby boomers also have a vote.  Exactly how do the baby boomers' votes force governments to restrict the supply of land to maintain elevated housing prices?  I don't recall lobbying any governments to this end.

So all our wealth is generally tied up in property?  Where do you get this "fact"?  I don't think I'm atypical of my generation and I have far more money in the share market than I do in property which consists of only my own home, no investment property.

Julia


----------



## Julia (14 March 2007)

I know we are not discussing Social Security in this thread, but just to redress the balance insofar as how hard done by the current X and Y's are, I spoke with a family today where mum and dad are in their early 30's, they are both receiving social security payments, they have five children, have received the baby bonus for all of them, are receiving rent assistance, free child care, and all manner of social services, and their current income is just under $1000 per week.  And they were seeking assistance for rent arrears of $700.

Don't think too many baby boomers ever got into this sort of situation or expected that sort of handout from their fellow tax payers.

Julia


----------



## doctorj (14 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> How do you come to this conclusion?  Your generation and others than the baby boomers also have a vote.  Exactly how do the baby boomers' votes force governments to restrict the supply of land to maintain elevated housing prices?  I don't recall lobbying any governments to this end.



Anecdotal evidence only. 



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> So all our wealth is generally tied up in property?  Where do you get this "fact"?  I don't think I'm atypical of my generation and I have far more money in the share market than I do in property which consists of only my own home, no investment property.



Again, only anecdotal evidence - for example, there's been far more renovation type shows than share market related shows.  The populace seem to see the share market as gambling.

Personally, I know far more people of the baby boomer generation that own an investment property than shares (outside of employee share plans or their super).

*NB. If you have a SMSF, that already makes you atypical and outside of the scope of my comments.


----------



## Buster (14 March 2007)

Hey Smurf..



			
				Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> Though I'm concerned that we aren't investing (either public or privately owned) anywhere near enough in the infrastructure we'll need for the future.



If i remember correctly you are in Tassie?? I haven't been there for a while, but what I do remember of Hobart was that it was well laid out and seemed to be well supported.. Maybe it's started to look a little tatty around the edges now, like I said it has been a while..  

Here in Perth the outer suburbs that are 'growing' are really having trouble with getting decent roads, rail, restaurants, schools etc. as all the trades have headed up North, with few to keep the building of homes and infrastructure ticking along at a reasonable pace.. (It takes almost 18 months to build a 'normal' house, mine (normal) took almost two years..).  It's reasonable to assume this is probably one of the Major factors with the boom here as people sell existing homes to build, and then renting coupled with the extra manpower attracted to Perth for the fly in/fly out jobs up North.  

It's all happening too slowly, causing excessive prices..

Now, if the mining/gas industry has a downturn (which I doubt will occur for some time) then those trades will return and maybe Perth can 'expand' at a reasonable pace taking some of the pressure of the existing dwellings.. and reducing prices..

Maybe all a little too simplistic, but my read on the situation anyway..

Cheers,

Buster


----------



## Freeballinginawetsuit (15 March 2007)

robandcoll said:
			
		

> Little ironic isnt it with todays downturn in the markets. US housing problems and lending institutions. Housing equity etc. It is going to happen over here as well. There was a post earlier on about someone rubbing his hand together as the price of his kept going up. What can you do with it. Increase your equity? Sell and upgrade - increase the mortgage I suppose. My advice if you own a house in Perth is sell now. Invest wisely and return to the market in 2 years.




Always a quagmire Risk VS Return, and its always the most leveraged that buckle first at the end of a cycle, wether its property/stocks/business .........whatever. Unfortunately compounded by supply from the greedy bottom feeders to those that should have known better........but unfortunately never do!


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

I just had another look at the thread title... "Baby Boomers are 25% of the population and control over 50% of the wealth!"... A question comes to mind, "Why should this surprise me?" That is nothing out of the norm... wealth grows exponentially (should anyway) and by the age of retirement, a double in wealth should have occured


----------



## Julia (15 March 2007)

doctorj said:
			
		

> Anecdotal evidence only.
> 
> Again, only anecdotal evidence - for example, there's been far more renovation type shows than share market related shows.  The populace seem to see the share market as gambling.




Just on the point of the renovation type shows, any I've seen don't appear to have baby boomers as their focus - the people in them always seem to be much younger.  The baby boomers I know are absolutely not into renovation.

Julia


----------



## Kimosabi (15 March 2007)

In 20 years this thread title will be Gen Xer's are 25% of the population and control over 50% of the wealth!

And 20 years after that it will Gen Yer's are 25% of the population and control over 50% of the wealth!


----------



## Kimosabi (15 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Just on the point of the renovation type shows, any I've seen don't appear to have baby boomers as their focus - the people in them always seem to be much younger.  The baby boomers I know are absolutely not into renovation.
> 
> Julia




That's only because younger people look better on TV...


----------



## numbercruncher (15 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> In 20 years this thread title will be Gen Xer's are 25% of the population and control over 50% of the wealth!
> 
> And 20 years after that it will Gen Yer's are 25% of the population and control over 50% of the wealth!




In 25 years the majority of Boomers will still be alive (they incidently have a longer life expectancy than x and y), 1 in 4 Australians will be aged over 60, between Boomers, X and Y they will control in my estimate 80pc of the wealth.

The way things are going each generation after the Boomers seems to be getting in a worse predicament.


----------



## Atomic5 (15 March 2007)

They inherited the post-war wealth of the 50's and were also able take advantage of the prosperity of the 60s, 70s and 80s, before the world turned to rubbish, filled-up with rubbish, and then started peddling more rubbish (Chinese trinkets). 

Chinese export increased 50% last month, but what are they exporting? We have a choice of cheap cr*p or more cheap cr*p. _I hate Chinese products._ But it addresses previously non-liquid markets - the poorer sectors - giving them 'buying power' with money they dont really have. 

The sub-primes were also geared towards a poor, non-liquid market, unsuccessfully finding desperate ways to make it liquid, sucking the last dollars from where there was no money. 

When this boom finally and truly bursts maybe 2008, its gonna be _real_ ugly, ..... so much for flower power .... strangely the progression reflects a boomers lifespan from birth to growth to decrepidation .... and finally  .....

MHO - DYOR


----------



## chops_a_must (15 March 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> And then theres this..
> 
> Oh woe is us, how we suffer. Yet can’t wait to screw somebody over..  You guys crack me up..



I don't have much sympathy for anyone stupid enough to be buying a home right now or for the last few years. And at the end of the day, I'll only be screwing people over that have been screwing my friends over.




			
				insider said:
			
		

> I'm only 20 and I'm studying to do real estate development and I'm kicking a*** in the share market... why? Because I'm no sheep and I choose not to go to the slaughter... Yeah we can all have our sob stories of how 60 years ago how I had to work at the factory at the age of 12 and blah blah and support this and that... (mind you I'm currently working 5 unpaid days a week helping my parents out and going to Uni 5 days a week doing 9 subjects (and getting HDs)) I'm not going to cry about it, but I'm proud of it... I soldier on and get the task done... I look at the current housing situation and look for solutions... I'm rubbing my hands together... What separates us is that we think laterally...



Pretty much. Some people have it tougher than others no matter what time frame they are living in. I was homeless for a period as a teenager. You definitely can't paint all young people or all old people with the same brush. I was at Uni. full time, whilst getting a TAFE Diploma and starting my own business. Next week I'm looking at an 80 hour week, hands on (literally). It's not something I dwell on or complain about. So I resent being called "emo" like a lot of you seem to be labelling us as.

As to the Baby Boomer parent issue. Well, I've spoken to my parents about it. And I've said to them if they think I am going to look after them in old age they can go and get F*CKED! They didn't raise me in a safe environment so I fail to see why I should make their retirement safe. They know this, understand this and accept it.


----------



## Atomic5 (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> As to the Baby Boomer parent issue. Well, I've spoken to my parents about it. And I've said to them if they think I am going to look after them in old age they can go and get F*CKED! They didn't raise me in a safe environment so I fail to see why I should make their retirement safe. They know this, understand this and accept it.




  thats funny!

MHO - DYOR


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> .. They didn't raise me in a safe environment so I fail to see why I should make their retirement safe. They know this, understand this and accept it.



Lol, and while you're at it, saboutage their airconditioner - teach em (belatedly) that they shouldn't have stuffed up the environment !! 

PS thought for the day.. "Natural attrition" that's what happens in an employment downturn because BB hold the purse strigs (and the jobs), and their positions are not filled by anyone, specially not the X and Y's waiting in the jobs queue  .   

PPS The good news for X and Y is that their votes will eventually swamp the BB (if it gets to generational war that is)   - I can see the day when a party wins called the "STOP-MAKING-OLDIES-LIVE-LONGER-PARTY".

or "PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN A CARPORT and/or CARAVAN" party ? lol - many BB-ers did after all


----------



## Kimosabi (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> As to the Baby Boomer parent issue. Well, I've spoken to my parents about it. And I've said to them if they think I am going to look after them in old age they can go and get F*CKED! They didn't raise me in a safe environment so I fail to see why I should make their retirement safe. They know this, understand this and accept it.




I tell my parents that I don't care about any inheritence, I just don't want to have to pay for them when they're old.

Saying this, I have taken an active part in helping them secure the funds they need for their retirement.


----------



## Lucky (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> I don't have much sympathy for anyone stupid enough to be buying a home right now or for the last few years. And at the end of the day, I'll only be screwing people over that have been screwing my friends over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Chops sounds like you've got a very nice supportive family unit.  I don't think it really matters whether you're a baby boomer, gen x, gen y, whatever, if it's all about you, then it's all about you, eh?


----------



## chops_a_must (15 March 2007)

Lucky said:
			
		

> Chops sounds like you've got a very nice supportive family unit.  I don't think it really matters whether you're a baby boomer, gen x, gen y, whatever, if it's all about you, then it's all about you, eh?



Well. Why should you give the time and resources to people that aren't prepared to do the same? I have some great friends and would rather help them out like I have had to do over the last year or so. i.e. paying their rent for them etc.


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> I have some great friends and would rather help them out like  i.e. paying their rent for them etc.



chops 
 can we assume 
a) they are female ?
b) that you had to keep them from the foggy foggy dew, ? and
c) they'll pay your rent if things go pearshaped in the ASX ?


----------



## chops_a_must (15 March 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> chops
> can we assume
> a) they are female ?
> b) that you had to keep them from the foggy foggy dew, ? and
> c) they'll pay your rent if things go pearshaped in the ASX ?




a) no
b) yes
c) I would hope so! Lol!


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> chops
> can we assume
> a) they are female ?
> b) that you had to keep them from the foggy foggy dew, ? and
> c) they'll pay your rent if things go pearshaped in the ASX ?




I'd hope so for chops sake... otherwise chops may have a boundaries issue and believe me I've had ex girlfriends take advantage of it from other guys... The prettier the girl the less she needs to spend... I won't judge because believe it or not there are some great friends out there that wish you all the best and don't act like crabs in a bucket like some people i know... but If you do pay their rent keep a record of it and maybe pay electronically or by cheque so that you get a copy and proof you gave them money in case one does a runner on ya... good luck...

What the hell is foggy foggy dew? I'm getting a headache trying to figure it out


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 March 2007)

Just an old song m8  - even predates the BB'ers lol.
http://www.contemplator.com/ireland/fogyfogy.html


> This tune appeared on a broadside circa 1815. Burl Ives, however, categorizes this as a tune from Colonial America. An earlier tune "when I First Came To Court"was licensed in 1689, but this a revision of that tune done in the late 18th or early 19th century.
> 
> When I was a bachelor, I liv'd all alone
> I worked at the weaver's trade
> ...




PS this site has the tune :- ( but different words)
http://www.contemplator.com/ireland/foggy.html


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Just an old song m8  - even predates the BB'ers lol.
> http://www.contemplator.com/ireland/fogyfogy.html
> 
> 
> ...




LMAO   ... I can't believe they called it "keeping her from the foggy foggy dew"... Not even Shakespear was that cryptic... fair lady though shalt be kept from thee foggy foggy dew haste...

This isn't normal... I can imagine my mates conversation going like this:

-So did you do it?
-I sure did!
-wow I can't believe you got foggy
-you should see how foggy she got with a can of mountain dew!
-wow!?
-to top it off she used a straw


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 March 2007)

I think it's correct to say that song is allegorical  - but as you say, gen X and Y have their own versions of allegory lol.  ...rap,  and other jive talking jargon , lol 







> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory An allegory (from Greek ἄλλος, "other", and ἀγορεύειν, agoreuein, "to speak in public") is a figurative mode of representation conveying a meaning other than the literal.



 PS my son is at uni - flatting with "friends" - gotta feeling it's a "wild life sanctuary" as well


----------



## Buster (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> I don't have much sympathy for anyone stupid enough to be buying a home right now or for the last few years. And at the end of the day, I'll only be screwing people over that have been screwing my friends over.



Not really interested mate, as you've (again Royal You, not just 'you' you) already illustrated in the majority of the posts in this thread, not only are you willing to take the perceived 'advantage' that you begrudge the Baby Boomer, you are prepered to go much much further..  to the point where you would gleefully accept gain at the expense of others, all the better at thier misery.

However, I guess that is the point of being 'young'..  lacking the wisdom or emotional development normally associated with adults, or not yet having attained the perfection of a later, or fully developed, style.

Personally some of the attitude in this thread sickens me..

Again, let me point out that I'm NOT old enough to be labelled as a Baby Boomer, and thankfully I also dont fit into, nor subscribe to the poisonous and vengeful view of some of the 'younger' posters in this forum who believe they are owed everything having contributed nothing.   


Buster.


----------



## 2020hindsight (15 March 2007)

my folks told me that this was good music - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQqubH1fltQ&mode=related&search= 
or this   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVtcIjy6SPM&mode=related&search=
Paul MCCartney was a long haired git lol  
generation X Y etc should be locked up and flogged until they acknowledge how tolerant we are !!

PS Insider - this has something in common with "foggy dew" 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkPr_iXsTO8&mode=related&search= baby its cold outside


----------



## Lucky (15 March 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> Not really interested mate, as you've (again Royal You, not just 'you' you) already illustrated in the majority of the posts in this thread, not only are you willing to take the perceived 'advantage' that you begrudge the Baby Boomer, you are prepered to go much much further..  to the point where you would gleefully accept gain at the expense of others, all the better at thier misery.
> 
> However, I guess that is the point of being 'young'..  lacking the wisdom or emotional development normally associated with adults, or not yet having attained the perfection of a later, or fully developed, style.
> 
> ...




Buster, well said.  The kids will find out the hard way regarding the screw or be screwed attitude.  It's sad when people come across with this attitude and believe that one must act in this manner in order to "get ahead"  If they play with this set of rules, you might just get ahead, but you'll always be looking over your shoulder, thinking someone's out to get the better of you - it's not really a fun way to live if you ask me.  But then again everyone has to live their life as they see fit(and hopefully learn the lessons they need to learn in their lifetime).  

But then again in 5 or 10 years time you can always look back and say what the f@ck was I thinking back then!    

For some reason this thread has just brought back a road rage incident I saw this morning when I was heading to the gym.  I had just parked my car and was heading in when I heard this yelling from across the road.  Cars in peak hour traffic(8.30am), a guy in a BMW and another in Volvo S40 wagon hurling abuse at each other through open windows.  Driver of the BMW decides to esculate matters and spits at the Volvo driver through open windows.  Peak hour traffic, bumper to bumper, not very smart.  BMW moves ahead a few car lengths.  Traffic stops.  Nothing much happens for a minute or so.  Volvo driver jumps out his car walks up to the BMW driver starts saying a couple of words to the BMW driver(He looked genuinely surprised when he was confronted- i think he had forgotten what had just taken place -rage), but BMW driver has been a little to slow on getting his window up and he is covered in spittle, his face and suit.  What a great way to start your day!?!  :headshake

I can happily report my day started much better than this and got progressively better as it went on(i won't bore everyone with the details   

Not sure of the exact nature of why I posted that story, but for some reason it seems to fit in this thread or maybe it was just one of those weird things people see everyday   :dunno:


----------



## chops_a_must (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> I think the baby boomers will actually end up one of the most destitute generations in retirement. Most will have to sell their homes and assets to fund their nursing home living. And given the choice of baby boomers to elect a party that has torn the nursing home sector up, they will end up having to pay exorbitant fees for their own care. We already have massive shortages in the aged care sector, and this is without the largest demographic group in society being retired.



Before Buster or any other person wants to go on another bashing, tell me where in this thread I have actually said that my generation has had it harder than anyone elses? In fact I've said that the baby boomers will be pretty badly off. I haven't begrudged anyone anything.

And investing is a zero sum game. For someone to win, someone has to lose. And I certainly do not plan to be one in the flock.


----------



## Lucky (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> And investing is a zero sum game. For someone to win, someone has to lose. And I certainly do not plan to be one in the flock.




Then you will lose.


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Before Buster or any other person wants to go on another bashing, tell me where in this thread I have actually said that my generation has had it harder than anyone elses? In fact I've said that the baby boomers will be pretty badly off. I haven't begrudged anyone anything.
> 
> And investing is a zero sum game. For someone to win, someone has to lose. And I certainly do not plan to be one in the flock.




You're right... most humans engage in win/lose behavior everyday (like my EX) and very few make the effort to make win/win situations (like me, I voluntarily offer my seat to those that need it on public transport for example)... but with money there is always at least one loser for every winner... there's a psychological trade that goes on behind everything... It's human nature... 

No offense but it's seems like you've begrudged your parents, that's why they're confused and bashing you...

This is to everyone... Sigment Freud once said "character is destiny". I always say "success is the bi-product of good character". So if you're negative then you wont be successful because that's not your character... If your positive and optimistic then you'll be more successful... Most of the oldies here will agree... So drop any bad feelings because that's wasted emotional energy... energy that would be better spent on other things... BB's and X's and Y's kiss and make up... I'm warning you :


----------



## chops_a_must (15 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> No offense but it's seems like you've begrudged your parents, that's why they're confused and bashing you...
> 
> This is to everyone... Sigment Freud once said "character is destiny". I always say "success is the bi-product of good character". So if you're negative then you wont be successful because that's not your character... If your positive and optimistic then you'll be more successful... Most of the oldies here will agree... So drop any bad feelings because that's wasted emotional energy... energy that would be better spent on other things... BB's and X's and Y's kiss and make up... I'm warning you :



If I wasn't positive, I don't think I would be alive. Wow, this is getting Freudian isn't it? Largely, I get along with my parents. They will just need to learn their lesson, like the children they act like. Lol!


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> my folks told me that this was good music - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQqubH1fltQ&mode=related&search=
> or this   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVtcIjy6SPM&mode=related&search=
> Paul MCCartney was a long haired git lol
> generation X Y etc should be locked up and flogged until they acknowledge how tolerant we are !!
> ...




That actually wasn't bad.


----------



## Julia (15 March 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> Not really interested mate, as you've (again Royal You, not just 'you' you) already illustrated in the majority of the posts in this thread, not only are you willing to take the perceived 'advantage' that you begrudge the Baby Boomer, you are prepered to go much much further..  to the point where you would gleefully accept gain at the expense of others, all the better at thier misery.
> 
> However, I guess that is the point of being 'young'..  lacking the wisdom or emotional development normally associated with adults, or not yet having attained the perfection of a later, or fully developed, style.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Buster, for saying so well what I'm feeling.  Some of the malice and bitterness from some of the young people in this thread  has really taken me by surprise and disappointment.

Julia


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Thanks, Buster, for saying so well what I'm feeling.  Some of the malice and bitterness from some of the young people in this thread  has really taken me by surprise and disappointment.
> 
> Julia




I'm not malice or bitter... I wish you all luck


----------



## nizar (15 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> I tell my parents that I don't care about any inheritence, I just don't want to have to pay for them when they're old.
> 
> Saying this, I have taken an active part in helping them secure the funds they need for their retirement.




They gave everything for you when you were younger.
Some people are just so ungrateful.

I cant wait to have money so i can give my parents the life they deserve.

Seriously, i mean, come on guys, your parents...


----------



## Julia (15 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> I'm not malice or bitter... I wish you all luck



Insider:

My comment was absolutely not directed at you.  On the contrary.

All the best
Julia


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

nizar said:
			
		

> They gave everything for you when you were younger.
> Some people are just so ungrateful.
> 
> I cant wait to have money so i can give my parents the life they deserve.
> ...




Same here... I already give them heaps all ready (not money but my time)... My parents never bought me a car because I didn't want them too... it's too generous... When they're gone They will leave me and my brother and sister their house. That's more than enough and I certainly hope to never see that day.


----------



## Julia (15 March 2007)

nizar said:
			
		

> They gave everything for you when you were younger.
> Some people are just so ungrateful.
> 
> I cant wait to have money so i can give my parents the life they deserve.
> ...



Good for you Nizar. 

Julia


----------



## chops_a_must (15 March 2007)

nizar said:
			
		

> They gave everything for you when you were younger.
> Some people are just so ungrateful.
> 
> I cant wait to have money so i can give my parents the life they deserve.
> ...



What if they put you out on the streets?

I don't think it's bitter at all. I haven't lost my faith in human kindness. I'm just not going to be stupid about it.

You wouldn't go and look after an abusive ex-husband would you?


----------



## insider (15 March 2007)

You know what EVERYONE... clearly this is an issue that'll go around in circles so my solution is... Learn to mother and father yourself so that you can stop relying on other people and so you won't be affected... When you find people that you like then stick with them... But don't set your goals based around them because that is a recipe for failure... take it as it comes... You are the most important person in your life...

I heard Dr Phil has a position available... I might take him up on it  :


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 March 2007)

Julia said:
			
		

> Smurf:
> 
> Could you explain just exactly what we baby boomers should have been doing on a personal basis to not "run down the infrastructure capital".
> 
> ...



Julia, my comment wasn't directed at anyone personally and I hope you didn't take it that way. My appologies if it didn't come across the way I intended.   

My point is basically this. Up to the mid-1980's in Australia, we invested vast amounts in all kinds of infrastructure. We built or at least committed firmly to building most of the railways, highways, power stations, hospitals, dams, schools and so on largely during that time.

But about 20 years ago all that changed. We stopped spending anywhere near as much on infrastructure for tomorrow. We had enough for now and decided not to invest much for the future. Instead, we funded all manner of tax cuts, financial booms and other things which generally resulted in a shift from "invest for tomorrow" to "consume it now".

It was the boardrooms and to a greater extent government which made those decisions, not ordinary individual people. 

The overall effect is that for the past two decades or so we've had the benefit of previous generations investing in infrastructure but we haven't been investing anywhere near as much for the benefit of future generations. Hence my comment that collectively as a nation we've been taking (the benefits of past investment) without giving (back something for the next generation).

What should we have done? At a personal level there's not much we COULD do individually and that's not the issue I'm getting at. 

But as a nation we ought to be making sure we have enough hospitals and trained staff to run them, enough transport capacity, enough water for the cities, enough power, a quality education system and so on. It will take decades to build these things back up to the standard they were at their peak if we don't keep up the required investment.

Right now in Tasmania there's a debate about building a new major hospital. The only way anyone can think of to fund it being to sell off some asset built by a previous generation. 

Now let me get this straight. Previous generations built roads without modern machinery. They built railways with pick and shovel. They built dams and power stations, also without modern construction machinery, in the midst of a depression and both world wars. And they built the existing hospital too. And those alive today inherited all of that in the best condition the previous generations could hand it to us.

And yet we have a far higher overall standard of living but can't bring ourselves to pay the cost keeping the hospital up to the required standard. It was handed to us in a condition appropriate for the time. All we had to do was keep it going and replace buildings etc gradually over the years. But we're not prepared to pay even though those who worked under far more difficult conditions (physically) and had a far lower overall standard of living managed to build it and all the other things as well. Something is very, very wrong with the attitude we have today...   

There are plenty of similar examples in the other states too. Just look at Sydney's trains or Brisbane's water. Previous generations built massive projects that kept us all well supplied for decades. But we haven't been investing enough to keep them up to standard.


----------



## Buster (16 March 2007)

Chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Before Buster or any other person wants to go on another bashing, tell me where in this thread I have actually said that my generation has had it harder than anyone elses? In fact I've said that the baby boomers will be pretty badly off. I haven't begrudged anyone anything.



Not bashing *YOU* mate. As I’ve posted a few times in this thread “Royal You, not just 'you' you” as in not you personally, but the mentality that appears on this thread by some ‘seemingly' young posters.. I wonder if some of the animosity in this thread and those like it is actually posted from those of the BB generation that may have missed the boat.. 

What amazes me is the constant ‘woe is us’, ‘ look at the situation you’ve left us in’ and ‘just realise what you’ve done’ posts followed up by this..



			
				Chops_a_must said:
			
		

> Is anyone else in their early 20s actually rubbing their hands together over this? I'm hoping to snap up property (along with a few I know) after just about everyone in Perth goes bust. This will all be insignificant in another few years. There is opportunity in the misery of other people.



There are other examples of ‘I cant wait to screw over those that have been screwing me’ type posts (from various posters). 

Surely you can see how hypocritical these views/posts are..

As I’ve pointed out before, I'm NOT old enough to be labelled as a Baby Boomer, and I certainly didn’t have a silver spoon hanging out of my ring bit.. I started with nothing.  I live a comfortable lifestyle now (not a wealthy lifestyle) which stems from some discipline and control in my earlier years (read: going without some luxuries).  And I can tell you those small sacrifices then (which seemed significant) are more than worth the quality of life I live now.. more importantly my ‘success’ (obviously measured differently by each individual) has certainly not been achieved at the detriment of others..

Each to their own..  

Cheers,

Buster


----------



## Kimosabi (16 March 2007)

nizar said:
			
		

> They gave everything for you when you were younger.
> Some people are just so ungrateful.
> 
> I cant wait to have money so i can give my parents the life they deserve.
> ...




I'm not ungrateful at all.  I think it's called being smart.

I have put a huge amount of effort into helping my parents plan for their retirement and with the selling of their business, getting rid of my leach sister and her d1ckhead husband out the business who nearly sent them broke and took without permission, a sh1tload of money.

I have no expectation of getting anything from my parents, I'm more than happy for them to blow it on themselves if they so desire.

All I care about, is I don't want to wind up paying for them when they retire.  I also don't expect anyone to pay for me when I retire either.

We should have them out of debt in the next few months, house over their head paid for, cashed up, ready to ride out the bust and then we might be able to pick up some bargains on the other side and ride the next Bull.


----------



## chops_a_must (16 March 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> There are other examples of ‘I cant wait to screw over those that have been screwing me’ type posts (from various posters).
> 
> Surely you can see how hypocritical these views/posts are..



If they were expressed by someone else, yes, but I haven't said in this thread that it is wrong for BB's to be making money. I'm not out to screw people over, just make money.   

Given that I conduct my business in an ethical and compassionate manner (charging clients far less than my worth so they are still able to receive treatment) I don't think I will encounter problems with screwing renters over. I don't feel sympathy for those in positions of disadvantage due to their own decisions i.e. people in too much debt, but do for people in disadvantage due to circumstance i.e. young, inexperienced worker on minimum wage.


----------



## The Snorkler (16 March 2007)

Just joined the discussion.... 

Good points all round. There is money to be made here. They may control a disproportionate share of the wealth but we will be the ones who extract the ore back off them in the next 20 years as their bodies and minds begin to whither and they become as helpless children.

Go long on rubber gloves, go long on nursing homes, go long on sedative pills...

go long son.

go long.


----------



## Riesling (16 March 2007)

Kimosabi said:
			
		

> All I care about, is I don't want to wind up paying for them when they retire.




Lucky you to have that expectation.  Myself and at least two of my friends have had to buy our parents homes to live in, and those parents will be living on the pension when they are too old to go to work (all are mid 60s and still working), with spending money provided by their children.

I'm 33, classic X-er, and have paid off that house, which I bought/built in 2002/3.

Pretty much anyone with an education/trade could do this.  You can't be too risk averse.

I went to London, got a job, and lived pretty cheap (plenty of people live cheaper)  I worked as an accountant, boring as hell but good money.

I'm a terrible saver, but in my early 20s, when I had terrible credit card debt, that I am quite good at paying off debt when required.

So instead of trying to save a deposit (which required self-discipline), I got some credit cards (so easy to do in the UK) and cash advanced GBP30k. (Yes it took a while!)  Then I switched to new cards every 6 months and kept balance transferring to new 0% intro deals so I didn't have to pay interest.

With that A$75k I bought a block of land on the NSW far north coast, closest I could find to where my oldies were living on the Gold Coast that I could afford.    I was earning GPB52k/year so I paid off the land in just over 12 months (here doing the same job I would earn about A$70k so that gives you some idea of the better money that can be made in London in some (not all) professions).  I also bought a horrible tiny flat in London on a 100% mortgage, renovated every day from 6pm till 1am for 4 weeks, and sold it at about A$60k profit.

After that I did the same thing again.  So I had A$75k in cash to start building a house, and I got a mortgage for $75k.  My dad did the owner-building thing and we used every mate and mate's mate and cost cutting exercise we could to build a 2 story brick 4 bed 2 bath house for about $145k.  (Sure prices have gone up a bit since then, but that would just mean another year in London)

I paid off the UK credit cards in the second year, then moved back to Oz in 2005.   I didn't like being an accountant (being an X-er - you know we don't like to stick to anything) so I borrowed A$100k against the house and started a bar - it wasn't rocket science, anyone could do it, but it was long hours and hard work.  I sold it after a year for $300k.

So now I have paid off the house and have $100k (by the way, I rent myself as it's way cheaper than owning in my chosen suburb LOL! - but now I am too scared to change apartments because the rents all round have gone up!)   My parents will be living in the house till they pop their clogs, as they collectively have less than $100k in super and no other assets.   I don't begrudge this as without them I wouldn't have gone to uni etc so had the ability to do the above.

So, in this case the BBs have got bugger all.   And like I said at least 2 other of my friends have done the same thing for their olds (who knows how many others, generally we don't like to talk about it).   

I don't relate the above to show how amazingly sensational I am, far from it, I am fairly ordinary (albiet having a uni education).

I relate it to show how easy it is to do, and I don't understand why more people in their mid/late 20s don't do it (unless you've got a job like science reserach or whatever that pays woefully throughout the world - sorry about that.)


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 March 2007)

just to digress , but expectations differ so much between generations.  
My folks (who had kids either side of WWII - lived through tough times, depression etc) never travelled overseas for instance - so they own their house -  I'm a BB and spent years roaming the world, and my kids expect it as well.  If I'm broke now, so be it.  If someone is richer than me financially, I'm jealous to a degree, but not as jealous as I am of someone who has really done something interesting during their youth.  
Then again, Go long on youth maybe !!     I know 60 and 70 year olds doing the Milford track etc.   (and lol - nothing so humiliating as being passed by a 90 year old on heartbreak hill during city2surf)


----------



## Prospector (16 March 2007)

Adelaide Bank has just released a new loan that 20% comes from another source, meaning that the buyer can borrow up to 80% and only pay the mortgage repayments on that 80%.  When it comes to selling, the 20% loaner receives 40% of the CG, the owner gets the other 60%.

Then they said that meant that new home buyers could buy a home that was 20% more than what they could originally have bought.   Or, as some others have said, Buy the Plasma, subscribe to Foxtel etc etc.

Young people expect more these days.  They have probably been living in their parents home, which over the years of working have probably accumulated the large TV's, internet broadband, Foxtel, nice furniture, etc etc.  And then expect to have all that when they move.

A 25 year old employee of ours recently built a new home; just like we did maybe 30 years ago.  Except hers had to be prewired for Foxtel and broadband, and also had to have a room with no windows - ie the Entertainment Room!  Within a month of moving in, that room had an overhead projector, Plasma 50 inch TV and the latest sound system all wireless - no ugly black wires for them!  She was a receptionist, he works in an assembly line - how could they expect all that stuff!  Wen we married we were both employed in professional (ie degree professions) and we had to borrow a TV, had newspapers for curtains, and bare plank (not nice timber btw!) floors, and we were quite happy to accumulate when we could afford it.

We are the baby boomers (although I distinctly recall when I was growing up that people of my age when reading of baby boomers were talking about people much older than me - when did the age criteria change?) yet our expectations in our 20's were way below what this generation thinks they need.  And I bet our parents said the same thing about us!


----------



## wayneL (16 March 2007)

Prospector said:
			
		

> Adelaide Bank has just released a new loan that 20% comes from another source, meaning that the buyer can borrow up to 80% and only pay the mortgage repayments on that 80%.  When it comes to selling, the 20% loaner receives 40% of the CG, the owner gets the other 60%.
> 
> Then they said that meant that new home buyers could buy a home that was 20% more than what they could originally have bought.   Or, as some others have said, Buy the Plasma, subscribe to Foxtel etc etc.
> 
> ...



The banks were a bit more responsible about how much they lent out then but.

It's actually quite liberating to shun all that rubbish and live humbly by choice. 

Bohemia is much cooler than Bourgeois.


----------



## Julia (16 March 2007)

Smurf:

Thanks for clarifying your comments about infrastructure.
We have absolutely no argument on this.
I agree with you completely.  Politicians have been paying out to their own government large dividends from infrastructure, e.g. especially power and water, instead of maintaining and increasing it to cope with the increasing population.  Then they blame it all on climate change.

The people in Brisbane and many other places who are watching their much loved gardens die because they can't water them will not be short on opinions of the behaviour of their elected governments.

Julia


----------



## Atomic5 (16 March 2007)

I just found the following about US baby boomers:

_Thursday, March 15, 2007 
http://www.baynews9.com/content/9/2007/3/15/231332.html?title=Greenspan: Subprime Spillover Unlikely

On another matter, Greenspan repeated a warning about the massive strain on the U.S. budget and the economy in the future from the looming retirement of 78 million baby boomers, who will draw benefits from Social Security and Medicare.

He called the pending retirements *"one of the seminal events in the first part of the 21st century in the United States".*_

What will happen when they all collectively die!  

(Im not being malicious but it sounds like somethings/many things will change then too.) Oh ok maybe it's amusing having been force fed 60s classical rock by radio stations 'till I could puke.


----------



## Atomic5 (16 March 2007)

chops_a_must said:
			
		

> What if they put you out on the streets?
> 
> I don't think it's bitter at all. I haven't lost my faith in human kindness. I'm just not going to be stupid about it.
> 
> You wouldn't go and look after an abusive ex-husband would you?




Not all parents are great human beings towards their children. Probably not a great many I would imagine.


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 March 2007)

Atomic5 said:
			
		

> What will happen when they all collectively die!



my guess is it'll go down in history ... much like the sudden extinction of the dinosaurs


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur
> At the end of the Cretaceous Period, approximately 65 million years ago, a catastrophic extinction event ended dinosaurs' dominance on land. One significant group of dinosaurs has survived until the present day; taxonomists consider modern birds to be the direct descendants of theropod dinosaurs.



some potential parallels to be drawn ...
1. sudden end of dominance of one group
2. seems we all become birds (?)


----------



## Atomic5 (16 March 2007)

What are you saying Hindsight? A new Dark Ages without the US Baby Boomers?

Or, it might be liberating to not have to live with Hippy paradigms, at last. Though the nostalgia will live on I imagine.


----------



## 2020hindsight (16 March 2007)

Atomic5 said:
			
		

> What are you saying Hindsight? A new Dark Ages without the US Baby Boomers?



ahh - they'll miss all that wrinkly old advice we gave em  (not, lol)
Thinking more of Aus BB'ers. btw 
maybe it was the Cretaceous period, and maybe it was the old Crustacean period?  like barnacles etc ?  

PS Atomic , no way I'm going to ramp up any lingering animosity between BB and X ot Y mate - we'll all have to get through the next 30 years (20 years?) together after all    - Personally I love the Polynesian idea (Samoa) of "extended families" - even to where a child of a family with say 6 kids will be "given" to a married sister etc who may have one or no kids etc     Polynesia is so mentally healthy on this one!!  Illegitimacy has absolutely no stigma etc.


----------



## Atomic5 (16 March 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> ahh - they'll miss all that wrinkly old advice we gave em  (not, lol)
> Thinking more of Aus BB'ers. btw
> maybe it was the Cretaceous period, and maybe it was the old Crustacean period?  like barnacles etc ?




Your consolation is that when subsequent generations slip off the map, no-one will even remember who we/they were.   

(Just wait till the Rolling Stones start to die !!! There'll be earthquakes.)


----------



## Buster (16 March 2007)

2020hindsight said:
			
		

> Personally I love the Polynesian idea (Samoa) of "extended families" - even to where a child of a family with say 6 kids will be "given" to a married sister etc who may have one or no kids etc     Polynesia is so mentally healthy on this one!!



Eeerr.. Except the bit about wanting a baby girl and giving birth to a boy, then raising it in their society as a 'girl'.. I'll never forget getting hit on by two 6'6", 400 mars bars across the shoulders, men wearing the dress, lacy floral gloves and flowers in their hair who were for all intent and purposes 'women' in their society.. not just awkward, downright terrifying..   

[On topic] I just found this..



> the analysis shows: Immigrants now make up 12 percent of early boomers (those born between 1946 and 1955) and 15 percent of late boomers (1956 to 1964).



Is this the consensus for BB age ranges?  If so I came _VERY_ close.., certainly closer than I expected  

Regards,

Buster


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## 2020hindsight (16 March 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> Eeerr.. Except the bit about wanting a baby girl and giving birth to a boy, then raising it in their society as a 'girl'..



yep - that too  - amazing - they tell a young boy that "after 4 boys we needed a daughter - so guess what? - you're elected!"  and the kid grows up as "affected" as any gay you'll meet anywhere .    
At least BB'ers in aus didnt do that to the X ers, lol.


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## insider (16 March 2007)

How does post war conditions make people want to have more babies?


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## wayneL (16 March 2007)

insider said:
			
		

> How does post war conditions make people want to have more babies?



Lot's of rebuilding work, people employed productively. Lots of community spirit. People finding happiness outside of the pursuit of wealth = happy folk.

+ crap/no TV = more munya.


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## nioka (16 March 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Lot's of rebuilding work, people employed productively. Lots of community spirit. People finding happiness outside of the pursuit of wealth = happy folk.
> 
> + crap/no TV = more munya.



AND the men had been away for a long time, the pill hadn't been invented ( plus above)


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## wayneL (16 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> AND the men had been away for a long time, the pill hadn't been invented ( plus above)



Maybe there were less headaches as well?


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## nioka (16 March 2007)

There was also the idea that one income could, and did, support a family.


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## Smurf1976 (16 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> There was also the idea that one income could, and did, support a family.



And yet now even two incomes are considered barely enough...


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## nioka (17 March 2007)

Interesting news article today says " One third of people who fail to pay their bills are gen Yers. 18 to 27 yr olds." Relevant ?


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## rockingham178 (17 March 2007)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> And yet now even two incomes are considered barely enough...




I have struggled up until recently but we made a concious decision for my wife to quit work when we started a family...that was 23 years ago.

We went without lot's of the things that others took for granted and started out very modestly. Living on one income can be done with a little discipline and self control.

I am constantly amased at the young people thinking they must get into a 4x2 with al the whistle and bells, plasma tv etc, new car. We used to call this "keeping up with the jones's".

Lower you sights and expectations when starting out in life instead the must have it all now that seems to permeat society today.

Do this and you can ejoy something very special indeed tat dual working parents lose forever....having one of the parents home (doesn't matter which) makes a world of diference to both you asa couple and the lifes of the children. I lament that this free luxury in life is being overlooked at the expense of our society and that of the lifes of children who need not your extra mony or plasma...they need you.

All of this will contribute to a wonderful life balance where you CAN buy a house/unit/flat and maybe more if you wish as you are able without the expectation that you must have it all now.


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## insider (17 March 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> Interesting news article today says " One third of people who fail to pay their bills are gen Yers. 18 to 27 yr olds." Relevant ?




18 to 27 year olds in general... It's got nothing to do with a generation but more to do with age and lifestyle... you know demographics... In twenty years time it'll be the same

Some of us have a life outside the worry of paying bills that we forget about them... I'm the same... I completely forget about paying them even though I have the money sitting on it for days... It's just not convenient to pay at the post office sometimes which is my preferred method... I don't really care about the big scary phone companies... What kind of business charges you for 200 loaves of bread even though you'll only eat 120... shouldn't they refund you for the 80 you didn't use...


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## wayneL (17 March 2007)

To be fair to the X's and Y's having to have all the mod cons, it is us BBs who have sold the need to have it all via incessant marketing.... and sold them the credit to buy it.


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## theasxgorilla (17 March 2007)

wayneL said:
			
		

> To be fair to the X's and Y's having to have all the mod cons, it is us BBs who have sold the need to have it all via incessant marketing.... and sold them the credit to buy it.




I think that this is exactly right.  And the same information channels that are used to sell to the Xs & Ys also tell stories convincing them that their financial situation is hopeless.


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## sptrawler (17 May 2021)

About time the boomers got a dose of reality.








						Wealth divide between young and old narrowing
					

The gap between the wealth of the oldest and youngest Australians is shrinking for the first time in seven years.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
The record gulf between the wealth and wellbeing of the oldest and youngest Australians is shrinking for the first time in seven years despite the coronavirus pandemic, but some of the improvement has been at the expense of retirees who are increasingly needing help for homelessness.

In the past 12 months there has been a reduction in inequality between age groups on the 2021 Australian Actuaries Intergenerational Equity Index. This is the second year the index has been produced but a back series shows this is the first decrease in the divide in financial, social and health outcomes between those 25 to 34 years old and 65 to 74 years old since 2013.


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## qldfrog (17 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> About time the boomers got a dose of reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



newsflash: newborns are poor


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## macca (17 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> newsflash: newborns are poor



Financial planners tell the younger generation to invest for their old age!!!

Baby Boomers did exactly that yet are criticised for it, I would suggest that a person who has worked for 40 years should have more money than one who has worked for four years

Kind of weird criticising someone for saving up a bit of money for their old age


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## Dona Ferentes (17 May 2021)

won't bother reading the thread..   which started in 2007 with the heading
Baby Boomers are 25% of the population and control over 50% of the wealth!​
.. and here we are 14 years on, and this cohort, defined as_ born between 1946 and 1964_, has, on average, mean or median(?), passed through peak earning and wealth accumulation to winding down/ less hours/ retirement and drawing on the savings.

_As economist Ronald H. Coase said " if you *torture* the data long enough, it *will confess to anything*”_


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## qldfrog (18 May 2021)

Just normal age wealth curves
Start woth nothing work gather wealth and start savings reach peak consumption.retire or slow down and burn savings/ giveaway to children grand children and die broke after a few months in aged care at 300$ a day the mash potatoes ulcers treatment.harsh but not reserved to boomers,just called life...as it should be if i dare.
Any government interference is tax greed and recipe for disaster.
PS i am not a boomer. Yet retired


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