# Any successful chart traders here?



## subterfuge (23 November 2013)

I've always wanted to learn how to trade profitably.

After a years of demo trading, I'm starting to think that this may not be possible.
I've been starring at charts until my eyes bleed.

A few people (who are apparently profitable) have told me that nobody has ever been consistently profitable with trading from charts.

Obviously lots of people also claim to be profitable chart traders, but typically, they won't ever post live trades or broker statements. Before I waste my whole life chasing shadows, I'd love to know that it's at least possible before I try a different method (DOM/Time + sales etc).

From speaking with various traders, the consensus is:
Charts - No chance! Equivalent to Just flipping coins.
DOM/T+S - Closer. Money CAN be made, but it's very hard, and it's only going to get harder due to algos etc. Also not a nice way to make a living.
Secret '3rd option' - Nobody ever elaborates on this, apparently though fear of diluting their 'edge'. Apparently there exists another way that doesn't seem to involve any of the methods i'm aware of. (No charts, No DOM/T+S, not fundamental analysis, etc etc)

With chart trading, the advice is usually to start from scratch and write down observations on market behaviour etc.
I've spent thousands of hours, but none of my observations have ever lead to anything that has given me an 'edge'. Sometimes my stuff works. Other times it doesn't.

It's depressing because I feel as though I need to 'start from scratch', but I can't see me being able to come up with anything 'new'. I'll just be going over old ground again.

If anyone would be willing to help me, i'll gladly start a journal, trading either CL, NQ or ES? I'll post my trades/daily blotter etc


----------



## darkhorse70 (23 November 2013)

Im curious to find out that answer aswell. I read some where in a book where Nick Radge said some thing like " the data on charts are all facts where as financial statements can be manipulated etc. For example Enron which manipulated their data and gave investors false impressions". Point being I guess there's challenges with both fundamental and technical. I love charts with only 7 months of paper trading and mainly losses I still think if you have a combination of right attitudes its possible. Just have to scew the numbers in your favour. Like all the pros say confirm the trade with both fundamental and technical indocators and if they all align up with the trend then go for it. Good luck man


----------



## tech/a (23 November 2013)

Been Trading Technically for 20 yrs--profitably.


----------



## ROE (23 November 2013)

darkhorse70 said:


> Im curious to find out that answer aswell. I read some where in a book where Nick Radge said some thing like " the data on charts are all facts where as financial statements can be manipulated etc. For example Enron which manipulated their data and gave investors false impressions". Point being I guess there's challenges with both fundamental and technical. I love charts with only 7 months of paper trading and mainly losses I still think if you have a combination of right attitudes its possible. Just have to scew the numbers in your favour. Like all the pros say confirm the trade with both fundamental and technical indocators and if they all align up with the trend then go for it. Good luck man




What about the combination of enron and a bull signal?

What about algorithms that design to create a certain patterns and get everyone on board

Everything can be manipulated when it comes to money and open market

as a trader or investor your job is to look out for them


----------



## Caveroute (23 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> I've always wanted to learn how to trade profitably.
> 
> After a years of demo trading, I'm starting to think that this may not be possible.
> I've been starring at charts until my eyes bleed.
> ...




What begins with T and lives in Norway ?


----------



## nulla nulla (23 November 2013)

Caveroute said:


> What begins with T and lives in Norway ?




A cold Termite.


----------



## Trembling Hand (23 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> I've always wanted to learn how to trade profitably.
> 
> After a years of demo trading, I'm starting to think that this may not be possible.
> I've been starring at charts until my eyes bleed.




Well if after a few months maybe 300 -400 hours you cannot see some sort of market repeating and how to trade it you would really need to reassess exactly what you are doing. You know the saying "Don't keep on doing the same thing and expect a different outcome"?



subterfuge said:


> A few people (who are apparently profitable) have told me that nobody has ever been consistently profitable with trading from charts.
> 
> Obviously lots of people also claim to be profitable chart traders, but typically, they won't ever post live trades or broker statements. Before I waste my whole life chasing shadows, I'd love to know that it's at least possible before I try a different method (DOM/Time + sales etc).




Most chart traders make money in bull markets and flop around when there isn't a bull market. Basically making money from the fact that at times stocks tend to trend. So in spite of their claims of an edge they are really just using T/A as money management, that is not losing too much until they get a lift when the tide rises. Few that I have seen show any real edge to read the market and put money to work consistently at the right time. That is clearly evident in their low win rate. And need for a few 10R or more winners to lift their account above BE.



subterfuge said:


> From speaking with various traders, the consensus is:
> Charts - No chance! Equivalent to Just flipping coins.
> DOM/T+S - Closer. Money CAN be made, but it's very hard, and it's only going to get harder due to algos etc. Also not a nice way to make a living.




DOM will get you nowhere especially if you don't understand what is going on in the first place. You will just be chasing momentum to find by the time you recognise and jump on its over and reverses, then you will die a slow death of 1000s cuts. And if you do actually manage to get onto a decent lift it won't be long before your DOM is giving reverse signals and you'll spew up ya order to then watch it run another 50 ticks past your exit or even worst you'll flip and fight it all the way up.



subterfuge said:


> Secret '3rd option' - Nobody ever elaborates on this, apparently though fear of diluting their 'edge'. Apparently there exists another way that doesn't seem to involve any of the methods i'm aware of. (No charts, No DOM/T+S, not fundamental analysis, etc etc)




More and more I think, although I use the DOM and 30 charts on my screens, I trade the '3rd option'. Its basically just knowing what your fellow traders, more to the point the locals, will be doing and how they trade given a particular option ie the type of market we are in. This I believe comes about from experience. I often know how my day will play out 1 or 2 minutes before the open and take my biggest bets most of the time within seconds of the open. Its just a play I develop from knowing where we are and who is likely to be playing. The market context. 

Have a look at the Technical analysis on this site. You see things like this,

"*If* this trend line breaks we *could* go lower"

Ha! I read that stuff and think.... well thanks and if it does you may but probably wont be taking a position either way so what is the point of thinking like that??!!



subterfuge said:


> With chart trading, the advice is usually to start from scratch and write down observations on market behaviour etc.
> I've spent thousands of hours, but none of my observations have ever lead to anything that has given me an 'edge'. Sometimes my stuff works. Other times it doesn't.
> 
> It's depressing because I feel as though I need to 'start from scratch', but I can't see me being able to come up with anything 'new'. I'll just be going over old ground again.
> ...




With your thousands of hours what have you came up with? You haven't seen 1 type of pattern or market that turns up in CL or NQ or ES at least every few days? Not the basic BS chart patterns type stuff that is all rubbish, markets are far too wild and random to shoehorn the same pattern into the same thing day in day out. What I am talking about is this example,

Pick you closes 5 friends and write down what their face looks like. I bet you cannot write down anything that would enable a stranger to pick them out of a crowd. (if you stay away from hair, height, etc). But you can recognise faces of people you haven't seen in 30 years. That same innate skill is how you read a market and trade it. What looks like a trendline break in classic TA is sometimes the perfect exhaustion push lower to load up long for a run to new highs. Its the ability to recognise the face of a bullish market that is how you trade.


----------



## Joules MM1 (23 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> I've always wanted to learn how to trade profitably.
> 
> After a years of demo trading, I'm starting to think that this may not be possible.
> I've been starring at charts until my eyes bleed.
> ...




the reason for losing with charts has nothing to do with the charts.....drawing linear lines that were intended to guide sailors who were navigating a globe is as abstract as you can get.....price wont be boxed by lines, there is no context and no sense of relative size, who's playing at what time.....

as for not finding anything......sounds like you lack the correct focus only 'cos youre interested in the result and not the exercise.....youre far more likely to wake-up and observe correctly with a tutor because he/she can challenge you to elocute what youre seeing and how youre interpreting......and this maybe the very reason you need to put some real money on the table as your focus shifts.....

ime and imho


----------



## Gringotts Bank (23 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> If anyone would be willing to help me, i'll gladly start a journal, trading either CL, NQ or ES? I'll post my trades/daily blotter etc




You should do that.  Ask TH or Joulian for feedback on your live sim trades.

I don't trade futures, but for many years you could use the Camarilla levels to trade systematically for very high returns.  Big players killed it just this year, I think.  Heard this from a very successful systems trader.  

http://www.futuresmag.com/2012/10/24/trading-stocks-with-camarilla-pivots
http://www.camarillaequation.com/


----------



## fiftyeight (23 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Well if after a few months maybe 300 -400 hours you cannot see some sort of market repeating and how to trade it you would really need to reassess exactly what you are doing. You know the saying* "Don't keep on doing the same thing and expect a different outcome"*?
> 
> 
> *DOM will get you nowhere especially if you don't understand what is going on in the first place.* You will just be chasing momentum to find by the time you recognise and jump on its over and reverses, then you will die a slow death of 1000s cuts. And if you do actually manage to get onto a decent lift it won't be long before your DOM is giving reverse signals and you'll spew up ya order to then watch it run another 50 ticks past your exit or even worst you'll flip and fight it all the way up.




I think this is what I was getting at the other day. There is no point spending hours looking at NT until you have at least some basic idea what you are looking for and where to look for it.

Surely this initial stage is where having a mentor or someone online giving you sh*t will make the learning process a bit easier?

If only someone was running a blog that had some of this information



> With your thousands of hours what have you came up with? You haven't seen 1 type of pattern or market that turns up in CL or NQ or ES at least every few days? Not the basic BS chart patterns type stuff that is all rubbish, markets are far too wild and random to shoehorn the same pattern into the same thing day in day out. What I am talking about is this example




If you are not looking for patterns what are you looking for? 

Is your feel for the market not based on things you have seen before repeating? They might be vague and more complex patterns but still some kind of patter?


----------



## burglar (23 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> ... After a years of demo trading, ...




It's been a hard year!


----------



## tech/a (23 November 2013)

> If your not looking for patterns what ar you looking for




Think high frequency trading
Think short moves 
Think high win rate
Think size.

Pick up 2-3 ticks every 30 seconds with 50-500 contracts.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (23 November 2013)

You guys will really enjoy this video about the Algo Arms Dealer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEAGdwHXfLQ


----------



## Joules MM1 (23 November 2013)

tech/a said:


> Think high frequency trading
> Think short moves
> Think high win rate
> Think size.
> ...




i have  several ways i'll play a 'some' set-ups, depending on where when how far and what's likely to unfurl (news, expiration, rollover, weakening (trending) data such as COT, what's the bias.....

for some there's the lines school of thought..."it breaks this line and i go this way"

i dont like that way simply because of two major factors, first youre restricted to obeying the lines
you get in, take the fake break and stop yourself out......hey, it's great for the discipline, sure
secondly, you are going to miss major parts of a move to get in and likely give up major parts of a gain to get out


lines have their uses for levels, memory of zones....that;s the height/depth not an angle or shape 

back the ways of playing allows me to shape the risk, when to think with the players who are now inputing their intent on trend.......am i restrained to trend ? yes/no ......restrained in that if i determin a play to be with trend then yeah i'm restrained and in the sense of a pause i am glued to one direction for the chop which is okay but it does have the drawback of elevated risk as the overall position increases...theres the time constraint of being glued to the screen so small size on the release of the move and smaller lots on the bracketing (thanks, Can)
soon as i've proven the pause is over i can add to the overall size and allow the points to come without touching the original play and i'll cull those contracts soon as momo drys up

i'm avoiding writing a book on it here....and i'm most def not going to say anything new....but here's the thing,
i see a lot of people wanna skin the cat in some orthodox thing.....the person on the other side of your trade is not really very ****ing interested in your opinion or your orthodox approach.....they just want you to shut the **** up and give them your money.....their job is to take your money

youre in a street fight

you need to grasp context....a trendline cannot tell you about context if it could there'd never be any head fakes, you'd never get trapped, you'd never buy a stock at the high and be stuck with it for years....

charting is relative to time in it's effectiveness + your technique.....in other words, if you cannot elocute how the context of your charting fits with the other guy/girl/algo/account on the opposite side of the trade youre about to enter then youre about to make a donation......the odds of losing from charting are extremely high and the only time that charting is consistantly effective, without you having to input any thought or other interpretive data, is when all trends run the same way over a long period.....really, at that point youre just passing time "charting"

when i have a chart open it'll be in at least two time frames....and i have to be confident is understand the game for that hour/day/week/month if possible without getting techno aboout.....i've learnt to think with "what's the other guy upto and am i trading with the strength players or am i trading with my emotional wotsit

charting is about your thinking of how the recent history has unfolded, who unfolded it

yeah, sure, you dont have to understand anything........i do....maybe it slows me down, maybe i could turnover a lot more.....right now my progress is ok.....it's been a good week and month.....

this week i re-took time to deepen my way of looking at how price is moving when i'm wrong in the context of time....where am i in a move....strictly within time.....this something you cannot get from a chart or trendlines yet they are the very things that result in a trend, they are the fabric of price moving.....ooops techno waffle

at any given time a big swing might move against me so i have to run with, reverse when i'm sure i've read the new play correctly, i dont scare on giving back some points to do it....for example.....here's an update of an ongoing sell i have on xau/usd....what's important to understand is that if i open on monday and realise i sold a low, if i can see the evidence singing like a choir, man, i'm out and reversed....this is like a diary chart-note so youre not going to get all the thinking that sits in the position.....

anyways:

chart one i had to abandon the two lower lots but you see the higher one remains




in the next one you see i allowed more pricing to unfold until i saw a very familiar activity, a summation or culmination that creates it's own csi (sorry, lol)




before some tw@t tells me i shouldnt use ratios etc, let me tell that i have a good system that works for me ......that's all.....again, maybe my hit rate and pos r/r could be higher.....all in good time

from my point of view i apply some measures that are inline with price....i am looking to use commonality of price lengths to assist me and on some occasions i'll go like this: "now i've seen the game and i know the chop i'm looking to hit a common measure for this instrument and sell/buy a fraction (tick if you like) within that measure and protect a tick outside of that measure.....but, i stress, it is within the bounds of understanding the play...defining risk, yes sure, but, keeping context keeping size of the pays in mind for exhaustion, where other players get hooked in etc etc.....it is my edge for myself i am not interested in having an edge against someone else rather an edge that allows me to extract value (money) from that play within the confines of the whole play i have for that instrument....and some days i'm flat too

coffee !!


----------



## subterfuge (23 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> DOM will get you nowhere especially if you don't understand what is going on in the first place. You will just be chasing momentum to find by the time you recognise and jump on its over and reverses, then you will die a slow death of 1000s cuts. And if you do actually manage to get onto a decent lift it won't be long before your DOM is giving reverse signals and you'll spew up ya order to then watch it run another 50 ticks past your exit or even worst you'll flip and fight it all the way up




yes, I was in this situation a few years ago, after taking someone elses advice to 'stare at the DOM for 8 hours a day and forget charts'.
I had no idea what I was supposed to be 'looking for' and every observation that I made seemed to be 50/50 in terms of success when put into practice and tested.




Trembling Hand said:


> More and more I think, although I use the DOM and 30 charts on my screens, I trade the '3rd option'. Its basically just knowing what your fellow traders, more to the point the locals, will be doing and how they trade given a particular option ie the type of market we are in. This I believe comes about from experience. I often know how my day will play out 1 or 2 minutes before the open and take my biggest bets most of the time within seconds of the open. Its just a play I develop from knowing where we are and who is likely to be playing. The market context.
> 
> Have a look at the Technical analysis on this site. You see things like this,
> 
> ...




Yes, I've been around trading forums well before I ever tried to trade, and so am well aware of all ambiguous trade 'calls' from people who are petrified of losing their guru status. They sit on more fences that Worsel Gummidge.

Even worse than those is the monday morning quarter backs. There's guys on one forum who have a popular thread where ever single post reads something like ''Caught that short there from 94.00 and closing it here at 93.20 for 80 ticks profit!! ''
They apparently average about 200 ticks per day.
It frustrates me more than it should, and i'm trying to avoid reading such threads now.




Trembling Hand said:


> With your thousands of hours what have you came up with? You haven't seen 1 type of pattern or market that turns up in CL or NQ or ES at least every few days? Not the basic BS chart patterns type stuff that is all rubbish, markets are far too wild and random to shoehorn the same pattern into the same thing day in day out.




I've come up with lots of observations, and patterns/setups.
In my experience, certain setups work better on different markets, although some people have told me that a true 'edge' works across all markets, which gives me doubts as to whether my observations are worth anything.

I also find that without knowing before hand what 'type' of day we're in for (say trending vs choppy) it's easy to be fooled into taking certain types of trades. And by the time you notice that the market is ranging, it's usually too late to profit from, or even worse, you'll short the upper end of a range, only for it then to break-out against you.

When you talk of a 'pattern' that turns up in, say, CL, are you talking more about specific bar setups, (Say, ES often turns at a double top) or something more like ''Hmm....whenever CL runs strong in the morning but goes flat from Midday, it will often give all the gains back in the evening'' (fake example) ?


regards.


----------



## Joules MM1 (23 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> You guys will really enjoy this video about the Algo Arms Dealer.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEAGdwHXfLQ




i thought it was a whinge-fest
preferred this one  : 





> Joules MM1 ‏@joulesmm1 17 Nov
> 
> #WallStreetCode video ........wot a whinge fest....at wot point does someone wake up and say, hey, losing trades mebbe its time to stop!!






> CalibratedConfidence ‏@CalConfidence 18 Nov
> 
> @joulesmm1 it wasn't his fault. the coding for placing orders was changed behind everyone's back with no exchange publicity





> Joules MM1 ‏@joulesmm1 18 Nov
> 
> @CalConfidence yeah, got that, how many trans made + what risk before obviality something wrong with auction process or own method ?





> CalibratedConfidence ‏@CalConfidence 18 Nov
> 
> @joulesmm1 that's a tough call as now we could claim that one shouldn't trade if they still don't know the order-types and when to use them





> Joules MM1 ‏@joulesmm1 18 Nov
> 
> @CalConfidence absolute! soon as playing field loses its level, you lose your edge...stop losing your liquidity.....


----------



## Gringotts Bank (24 November 2013)

Yes, it's a very different world, the one of the quant.  I expect at some time in the future, computers will be moving all the important money and it will become "robot wars".  I can't imagine how price action will change, but since 2006, I've noticed in Australian equities that mean reversion is something that can be traded.  Prior to this I'm not sure that it was a good system at all.

To the OP, I wouldn't rule out TA as a method.  The big robots are using TA, after all.  The more adaptive and 'personalized' the TA, the better, imo.  The TA has to be 'intimate' with the price action; it has to 'know' it.  Have a look at tech/a thread to see how stops were adapted to reflect daily price action.  It wasn't profitable for other reasons but the adaptation sensitivity was good imo.  TH mentioned facial recognition which is a good example because computers still struggle with this task, but for us humans it's easy, so we still have the edge over them.... but for how long?  Humans can even recognize a face after 20 years of aging and I'd bet computers can't.  Regarding TA, I think Fibonacci numbers still work well, as retracements and projections.


----------



## burglar (24 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> ... In my experience, certain setups work better on different markets, although some people have told me that a true 'edge' works across all markets, ...




some people ... 
some people will tell you hell exists.


----------



## Trembling Hand (24 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> To the OP, I wouldn't rule out TA as a method.  The big robots are using TA, after all.




Hey? I would be very interested in any info you can come up with to support this.


----------



## Trembling Hand (24 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> I've come up with lots of observations, and patterns/setups.
> In my experience, certain setups work better on different markets, although some people have told me that a true 'edge' works across all markets, which gives me doubts as to whether my observations are worth anything.




That is total BS. How can a set up work in CL that works in a $1.00 stock? Or one that works in the HSI that also works in the 10s? One does 250 ticks in 30 min the other does 12 ticks in a day!

Why do you bother looking for something that works in one market and then need it to be validated in a market that it doesn't work in?


----------



## DJG (24 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Regarding TA, I think Fibonacci numbers still work well, as retracements and projections.




Do Fib levels work because the next trader believes the same thing and that the levels will be respected? - traders behaviour/psycology then comes into discussion. 

I'm not trying to snipe at you or anything but just opening it up.


----------



## Trembling Hand (24 November 2013)

DJG said:


> Do Fib levels work because the next trader believes the same thing and that the levels will be respected? - traders behaviour/psycology then comes into discussion.
> 
> I'm not trying to snipe at you or anything but just opening it up.




They don't 'work'. They go like this,

"XYZ is getting over bought I expect a pull back soon"

A week later, 
"XYZ has pulled back like I said it would to 23.6% fib mark I expect it to bounce here"

Another week goes by,
"Well the 23.6% fib mark failed but its approaching the 38.2% mark that could go back to highs from there"

Another week later,
"well the drop on wall street mucked up the chance for it to bounce off the 38.2 fib but we are now approaching 61.8 or not even far from 50% so I expect it to bounce here"

It finally turns up and there you go you nailed it. 

Randomness squeezed into a 'pattern' for the punters.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (24 November 2013)

DJG said:


> Do Fib levels work because the next trader believes the same thing and that the levels will be respected? - traders behaviour/psycology then comes into discussion.
> 
> I'm not trying to snipe at you or anything but just opening it up.




What I've noticed:

Really strong bullish moves with little gapping on the leg up (eg. MKB) will have a high chance of bouncing off 23%.  Buy at 23%, sell at 0% or higher.

Strong moves with a bit of irregularity or gapping - look to buy these at 38% or 50%, watching the depth for cues as to which will provide support (eg. MBE).  Don't wait more than a few days for the move to happen.  If you buy at 38%, sell at 23% or higher.  If 50%, then 38% or higher.  You would be expecting a decent 1-2 day move so that your actual R:R is >50%, (the stoploss is the next level in the lower other direction).  You need a high win rate.

Moderate moves or moves with gaps or irregularity I wouldn't use Fib levels on.

I'm hoping to get this systematized on AB one day soon so I can backtest it for the best stops.  To me it looks like it depends a lot on the quality and strength of the move that precedes it, as to which number it bounces off.


----------



## cynic (24 November 2013)

burglar said:


> some people ...
> some people will tell you hell exists.



It does exist!

Some people have reported having tenants and neighbours from hell, and after having had direct experience of such Faustian beings I'd have to agree!

Also, anyone trading the DAX with leverage will have visited hell on more than one occasion during the past few years.


----------



## Joules MM1 (24 November 2013)

DJG said:


> Do Fib levels work because the next trader believes the same thing and that the levels will be respected? - traders behaviour/psycology then comes into discussion.
> 
> I'm not trying to snipe at you or anything but just opening it up.





try not to get sidetracked with waffling theory ..... reaching for the majic bullet

the only question you need to ask is "show me that trade in real time"


----------



## DJG (24 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> The Randomness squeezed into a 'pattern' for the punters.





Sounds about right. 



Joules MM1 said:


> try not to get sidetracked with waffling theory ..... reaching for the majic bullet
> 
> the only question you need to ask is "show me that trade in real time"




Exactly right. More and more I'm more towards fundamentally looking at a company, what it does etc. Compared to buying based on historic patterns. 

Except for in the instance of pairs trading such as SKC is familiar with. Although I've never bothered to give much effort to.


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2013)

cynic said:


> It does exist!
> 
> Some people have reported having tenants and neighbours from hell, and after having had direct experience of such Faustian beings I'd have to agree!
> 
> Also, anyone trading the DAX with leverage will have visited hell on more than one occasion during the past few years.




Indeed!!

It is the same place highly leveraged naked put traders (and synthetic versions thereof) will visit sooner or later. :evilburn:


----------



## cynic (24 November 2013)

wayneL said:


> Indeed!!
> 
> It is the same place highly leveraged naked put traders (and synthetic versions thereof) will visit sooner or later. :evilburn:



Not according to that famous hindsight swing trader of dark pools and promoter of the non-guaranteed, guaranteed stop loss, it doesn't. Those readers acquainted with that other thread and the "one whom must not be named" for fear of litigation will know what I mean.

We all know that things do work completely differently in the Noddyland Trading Room of certain unscrupulous seminar marketeers! 

P.S. Apologies for being a little off topic.


----------



## cynic (24 November 2013)

wayneL said:


> Indeed!!
> 
> It is the same place highly leveraged naked put traders (and synthetic versions thereof) will visit sooner or later. :evilburn:




Not according to that famous "inside tips" trading, hindsight swing trader of dark pools and promoter of the non-guaranteed, guaranteed stop loss, it doesn't. 
Those readers acquainted with that other thread and the "one whom must not be named" (for fear of litigation), will know what I mean.

We all know that things do work completely differently in the Noddyland Trading Room of certain unscrupulous seminar marketeers! 

P.S. Apologies for being a little off topic.


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2013)

cynic said:


> We all know that things do work completely differently in the Noddyland Trading Room of certain unscrupulous seminar marketeers!




'cept ya have'ta stump up $_x_,000 to enter the parallel reality where such things are not only possible, but available to everyone..... just sign on the dotted line and gimme yer credit card number. :evilburn:


----------



## subterfuge (24 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Why do you bother looking for something that works in one market and then need it to be validated in a market that it doesn't work in?




I meant more liquid instruments with a similar range/volatility; like price action that works on CL should also work on the ES.
However, I only put stock(excuse pun) in this because more apparently knowledgeable traders informed me that it was so and that any 'pattern' that I noticed that couldn't be transferred was likely not a genuine 'edge'.

But like in say, in my experience, I think they're wrong.

Can I send you a chart or 2 to see whether you think i'm barking up the wrong tree or not?


----------



## tech/a (24 November 2013)

Just as you can trade all instruments technically
So you can trade them fundamentally and 
Intuitively. The arguement continues and will continue
Infinitum.

But in answer to your question simply --- yes.


----------



## Trembling Hand (24 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> I guess i'm always guilty of putting everyone elses opinions above my own.
> 
> Can I send you a chart or 2 to see whether you think i'm barking up the wrong tree or not?




*Oh my god*! Can you not see the massive conflict in these two lines!!!

The following is meant in the most well intentioned way....

Harden the F up mate!! Make your decisions YOURS.

That is the only way to be a_ trader._ Be creative, see the market the way you want to trade it, be persistent, be unhappy with "just another sh!te day", be a trader.


----------



## burglar (24 November 2013)

cynic said:


> It does exist!
> 
> Some people have reported having tenants and neighbours from hell, and after having had direct experience of such Faustian beings I'd have to agree!
> 
> Also, anyone trading the DAX with leverage will have visited hell on more than one occasion during the past few years.



Some of those same people also tell you Heaven exists ...
And Catholics will tell you that Purgatory exists ...
But I did not want to drag religion into the discussion! *appropriate emoticon*

Q. How do you avoid big mistakes?
A. Experience.
Q. How do you get experience?
A. Making big mistakes!!


----------



## Caveroute (24 November 2013)

No ,its not termite .


----------



## pixel (24 November 2013)

Of course they exist. Just listen to these two ladies:

Samantha Jade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcUljPn8e18

and Carrie Underwood's Classic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU1pD4xPe2M


----------



## nulla nulla (25 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> .... Make your decisions *YOURS*.
> 
> That is the only way to be a_ trader._ Be creative, see the market the way you want to trade it, be persistent, be unhappy with "just another sh!te day", be a trader.





TH is right. Most of the posters above fall into one of four categories:

1. They trade Equities;
2. They trade Foreign Exchange;
3. They trade options; and
4. They pretend to trade.

By all means listen to what everyone has to say then sift through it all for what you can see will work using charts in the market you want to trade. Then make it your decision, your mistakes, your coming to grips with it, your rising to the challenges, you getting it right and you making a success from it. It takes time.



Caveroute said:


> No ,its not termite .




Okay, if it isn't a termite I bet what ever it is, it is still cold.


----------



## burglar (25 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> ... Randomness squeezed into a 'pattern' for the punters.




That's what cookie cutters are for!


----------



## Joules MM1 (25 November 2013)

nulla nulla said:


> It takes time.




oh, i see.....i have 22 magic wands, 3 jars of everything-will-be-alright-just-hang-in-there cream, 1 ex nazi black box and a harry potter lookalike pair of special glasses (donated by the gann family) 

interested offers can email me on wannabeanumpty.con (nigerian url for uber security)


----------



## cynic (25 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> oh, i see.....i have 22 magic wands, 3 jars of everything-will-be-alright-just-hang-in-there cream, 1 ex nazi black box and a harry potter lookalike pair of special glasses (donated by the gann family)
> 
> interested offers can email me on wannabeanumpty.con (nigerian url for uber security)




That sounds perfect!

Ohh! Wait just one minute! 

Do you have an AFSL number? (It's OK if you've rented one from someone.)


----------



## nulla nulla (25 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> oh, i see.....i have 22 magic wands, 3 jars of everything-will-be-alright-just-hang-in-there cream, 1 ex nazi black box and a harry potter lookalike pair of special glasses (donated by the gann family)
> 
> interested offers can email me on wannabeanumpty.con (nigerian url for uber security)




Cute. Unfortunately not everyone can get it right from first try. But perserverance and refining your strategy can pay in the long run and charts can be very helpful along the way, particularly in equities.


----------



## tech/a (25 November 2013)

*This is a good question one which deserves a more considered response.
Perhaps collated is a better description.*

*I'm not saying those contributing haven't been considered in response.*

There are some real gems of wisdom hear which I would like to comment on---as I seem to be alone in the area of giving comment to the trading technically profitably case---or perhaps the only one willing to cop it and discuss various comments and cop it again.

Below is in no particular order but excerpts which I would like to address. 
Stage one of probably 3.



> What about algorithms that design to create a certain patterns and get everyone on board




Yes quite possible but if it was designed to trap it wouldn't be long and another algo would see that as plain as day.



> Well if after a few months maybe 300 -400 hours you cannot see some sort of market repeating and how to trade it you would really need to reassess exactly what you are doing. You know the saying "Don't keep on doing the same thing and expect a different outcome"?





Chart time as you have said many many times will have you sub consciously aware of a pending move.
That's where you need to be. Recognizing and being on a pending move.



> Most chart traders make money in bull markets and flop around when there isn't a bull market. Basically making money from the fact that at times stocks tend to trend. So in spite of their claims of an edge they are really just using T/A as money management, that is not losing too much until they get a lift when the tide rises. Few that I have seen show any real edge to read the market and put money to work consistently at the right time. That is clearly evident in their low win rate. And need for a few 10R or more winners to lift their account above BE.




Most Chart traders cant turn a profit even in a bull market. But outperforming the index in a bull market by a comfortable margin can be achieved by a good chartist. I've done it. Bloody hell if you cant turn a good profit in a bull market---and many cant---what are you doing. Id add the fundamental boys into your flopping around group as well--certainly from what I've seen. I doubt they will ever outperform even in a screaming bull market.

T/H what you have witnessed from me at least are Stock trading exercises which are designed to do exactly as you have described---forced M/M.Putting punters in the position to capitalize on 10R winners as they come up.
We had one in my exercise and wrote off 3 mths of losses with 1 trade and the help of a little movement in 2 others. The method was as basic (For reason) that you could get. A total novice could follow it (For reason).



> I trade the '3rd option'. Its basically just knowing what your fellow traders, more to the point the locals, will be doing and how they trade given a particular option ie the type of market we are in. This I believe comes about from experience. I often know how my day will play out 1 or 2 minutes before the open and take my biggest bets most of the time within seconds of the open. Its just a play I develop from knowing where we are and who is likely to be playing. The market context.




Anyone who has stared at a chart of something long enough will associate with your 3rd option.



> "If this trend line breaks we could go lower"
> 
> Ha! I read that stuff and think.... well thanks and if it does you may but probably wont be taking a position either way so what is the point of thinking like that??!!




This is just reactive blah from people who have no idea how to implement a technical trading methodology.
I've said a thousand times that analysis (Any form of analysis) without practical application is a plane without a pilot. Pretty useless.



> But you can recognize faces of people you haven't seen in 30 years. That same innate skill is how you read a market and trade it. What looks like a trendline break in classic TA is sometimes the perfect exhaustion push lower to load up long for a run to new highs. Its the ability to recognize the face of a bullish market that is how you trade




*The best analogy I have seen.*
Brilliant.
And as an aside why you cant make it available to the masses. There is a whole host of friends right on the chart that you'll recognize given enough time to "SEE" them.

More as I get time.


----------



## Joules MM1 (25 November 2013)

nulla nulla said:


> Cute. Unfortunately not everyone can get it right from first try. But perserverance and refining your strategy can pay in the long run and charts can be very helpful along the way, particularly in equities.




lol, it was an agreement....many people think learning a musical instrument only takes a cupla weeks and it does....if you want to play off key with the wrong time signature...


----------



## nulla nulla (25 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> lol, it was an agreement....many people think learning a musical instrument only takes a cupla weeks and it does....if you want to play off key with the wrong time signature...




Touche. My error. Cheers & thanks.


----------



## burglar (25 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> lol, it was an agreement....many people think learning a musical instrument only takes a cupla weeks and it does....if you want to play off key with the wrong time signature...




"A gentleman is one who can play the bagpipes ... but chooses not to!!"


----------



## Joules MM1 (25 November 2013)

burglar said:


> "A gentleman is one who can play the bagpipes ... but chooses not to!!"




ye nay know the differerrenz tween a set o' baggies and a banjo ?

...bag pipes burn longer


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> I've spent thousands of hours, but none of my observations have ever lead to anything that has given me an 'edge'. Sometimes my stuff works. Other times it doesn't.



I experienced the same thing and possibly because I do not have a herd mindset. I now concentrate all my hard earned into property. I will look at share *investment* in the distant future. Investment because of dividend returns, negligible brokerage fees, negligible fearful emotion, restful nights sleep, better eyesight and more free time to focus on wholesome activities.

Share trading -- it really is a punt. 

P.S. I have some Amibroker T.A. systems that you might be interested in.


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 November 2013)

here's a good example of "i've seen this **** before, time to get out, cover or go long"




sneaky work.......no news.....no excuses for shorts to get cut to pieces


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> here's a good example of "i've seen this **** before, time to get out, cover or go long"
> 
> sneaky work.......no news.....no excuses for shorts to get cut to pieces




Fairly nasty $12 drop earlier today if you were long. On a three minute chart surely a foray would be brief as the 1H downtrend is still strong and intact. The last few MACD upswings have seen the price remain flat and then fall away again.


----------



## subterfuge (26 November 2013)

.....
todays efforts.


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 November 2013)

Wysiwyg said:


> Fairly nasty $12 drop earlier today if you were long. On a three minute chart surely a foray would be brief as the 1H downtrend is still strong and intact.




for those holding and getting shaken out, yeah, it'sa  lot on mragin that's for sure

we paused at 1236 ratio on my work and now we should get to 1238's and cutting of that level should give us some technical chasers, squeezes and get-me-outs.....

long until told by the chart to do otherrwise .....$$


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 November 2013)

wot are you observing? wot is there to ask?

there are observations to be made at all time levels......

questions to be asked versus "show me red-light green-light and i'll make the trade"

everybody wants red-light green-light......wot works best for some is left hemisphere, right hemisphere


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 November 2013)

as live as i can get




it's a cfd, no ladder, no depth, no indicators........left hemisphere, right hemisphere


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 November 2013)

and break-away, squeez, momo.....


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> .....
> todays efforts.




are you just here to pull our whizzers?


----------



## subterfuge (26 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> are you just here to pull our whizzers?




I'm not even sure what that means! lol
Can you elaborate?


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 November 2013)

i'm out of that play at 1242's .....looks like a hook so far as silver also hit a measure spot-on.....

done for the day


----------



## subterfuge (26 November 2013)

1 NQ trade and a few CL trades, and likely done for the day.
A rare winning day


----------



## kid hustlr (26 November 2013)

This seems like as good a place as any to post this.

(Not sure if this is genuine or a pi** take to be honest)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwKYjZ_8EcE


----------



## subterfuge (26 November 2013)

First ever time trading gold.
Shorted the break of the previous low. Nearly stopped me out, but ended up a winner


----------



## subterfuge (26 November 2013)

And todays CL trades.

I've appear to have been lucky with my trades since joining this forum which might lead to me not getting the input/help that I require!


----------



## havaiana (26 November 2013)

holy crap Joules has had gold on a string


----------



## havaiana (27 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Joules, where you have the 2 lines for your stops, are you moving the stop upwards from the bottom red line to the top one after the move starts? or are you doing a partial exit the top level, full exit at the bottom level?


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

havaiana said:


> Joules, where you have the 2 lines for your stops, are you moving the stop upwards from the bottom red line to the top one after the move starts? or are you doing a partial exit the top level, full exit at the bottom level?




lulz.....old stuff mate .....new day....sell the thing...... 

- - - Updated - - -



havaiana said:


> holy crap Joules has had gold on a string




to quote the venerable in-house master 


> put your foot on it's throat



 something like that 

- - - Updated - - -

my fave study for some real rubles 

from my other fave site

asiaonthebid.com/showthread.php/236-XJO-other-studies?p=1010#post1010


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> And todays CL trades.
> 
> I've appear to have been lucky with my trades since joining this forum which might lead to me not getting the input/help that I require!




i have a whacky study on CL and am long the cfd




large swing pos on this.....not chasing ......trailing

if you pull out a daily you'll see that inv h&S .....very low probability play-out......but poss blow-off


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

ready for the rip 
	

		
			
		

		
	




up ya go!


----------



## subterfuge (27 November 2013)

first day trading gold


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> first day trading gold




truckin along there, sub

made a complete mess of mine when the news came out...was confident the release would get covered...2am...dumb time of the day 







set a stop way too low, replaced sell .....most releases will reverse covering more than 66% of the level
most cases fully cover the release then reverse again....hang in there time


----------



## Trembling Hand (27 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> First ever time trading gold.
> Shorted the break of the previous low. Nearly stopped me out, but ended up a winner




Don't know what you are trying to achieve with your trading but cannot imagine entries like that having the best chance of profiting from a trading idea.


----------



## tech/a (27 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Don't know what you are trying to achieve with your trading but cannot imagine entries like that having the best chance of profiting from a trading idea.




It looks like entries-exits generated from an in house Algo.
I doubt he has any other input than a mouse and finger.


----------



## CanOz (27 November 2013)

Some of the entries look better reversed...

TH i recall you saying one time some of the best trades are the ones that hurt the most to take...don't see too many like that there.

Tech has a point though, without anything on the chart, it just looks like generated entries. Which maybe fine if its profitable. But then, its not really chart trading is it?

Subterfuge, have you ever considered watching the Time and Sales and a DOM at the same time as the price reaches an area where you may want to enter?


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

CanOz said:


> some of the best trades are the ones that hurt the most to take...




and 







> that, Detective Spooner, is the right question




there-in lies a huge knowledge base....aint no data feed going to help with that, no red-light green-light system

a lot of this  to a lot of this


----------



## CanOz (27 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> This is the curve when buying strong stocks at 50% retrace, selling at 38%, with a 4 day time stop.  Fixed 10K position size.  Not compounded.  Includes .11% brokerage, no slippage.  Equity curve is fine, profit is very low at 10%pa mainly due to low exposure.   This is my own efforts.  Hoping for some professional input soon.




GB, i appreciate the link between charts and fibb..but why not discuss this is the trading systems threads?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (27 November 2013)

CanOz said:


> GB, i appreciate the link between charts and fibb..but why not discuss this is the trading systems threads?




Just following up on my earlier comments that TA is not useless.  I got a bit of rubbishing from a few members so I thought I'd show some evidence.  Feel free to move it wherever you wish.


----------



## tech/a (27 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just following up on my earlier comments that TA is not useless.  I got a bit of rubbishing from a few members so I thought I'd show some evidence.  Feel free to move it wherever you wish.




If the only input is as you have stated

Something is wrong.
It would simply get smashed.
Give me the numbers (as in print out ) and code.

*You'll be using a code which has to have zig zag in it.*
You cant use that for a trade systems test.
Zig Zag is dynamic.
Your past charts are set in stone the 50% retracement is set and the 38% move to it also
set.
When you try this real-time the 50% retracement wont hold like it is on the past charts

This is one of the biggest traps Noobs fall into when systems testing.
Sorry mate its just wrong.
Unfortunately un informed stuff like this gives tech analysis a bad wrap.

As T/H points out youll be *smashed* in out of sample forward testing.


----------



## Trembling Hand (27 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just following up on my earlier comments that TA is not useless.  I got a bit of rubbishing from a few members so I thought I'd show some evidence.  Feel free to move it wherever you wish.




Test it now on out of sample data.


----------



## CanOz (27 November 2013)

tech/a said:


> If the only input is as you have stated
> 
> Something is wrong.
> It would simply get smashed.
> Give me the numbers (as in print out ) and code.




Why would he give you the code??

A nice Amibroker report would be nice.

Would be good to have someone like Nick check it for post-dictive errors...


----------



## tech/a (27 November 2013)

CanOz said:


> Why would he give you the code??
> 
> A nice Amibroker report would be nice.
> 
> Would be good to have someone like Nick check it for post-dictive errors...




See above* I know *what he's done its the only way he could code it.
The code will show it in a jiff.


----------



## subterfuge (27 November 2013)

yesterday:


----------



## CanOz (27 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> yesterday:




Live or sim?


----------



## subterfuge (27 November 2013)

CanOz said:


> Live or sim?




Kind of both!

I trade a live spreadbet account, but also use the SIM alongside it, because I like the charts and I use Ninja's account performance statistics to track my stuff.


----------



## subterfuge (27 November 2013)

One trade so far today. Gold
Although I would have had a losing trade on CL, but luckily didn't take it as I was at the Doctors!


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

we have higher targets to reach in this upwards chop....

price is playing out with ratio moves that persist to higher pricing, thus: 



higher targets, small res 1256's major test at 1272's


----------



## subterfuge (27 November 2013)

Trying long GC here at 1252.2
stop at 1249.2


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> Trying long GC here at 1252.2
> stop at 1249.2




yes, never gotten the exact level....


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

rotating, building


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

faith = hope

faith = ya just think youve got big kahoonas


----------



## subterfuge (27 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> Trying long GC here at 1252.2
> stop at 1249.2




stopped


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> Trying long GC here at 1252.2
> stop at 1249.2




hmmmm.....head scratch....new game


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> stopped




that was a shaker.....ropa-dope


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 November 2013)

some people used to call this "flow trading" or "non-static live charting" or "price action"

haha

fashion and blancmange


----------



## subterfuge (28 November 2013)

L 1246.8
(stop at 1243.8)


----------



## subterfuge (28 November 2013)

subterfuge said:


> L 1246.8
> (stop at 1243.8)




stopped out


----------



## nulla nulla (28 November 2013)

When you day trade gold, while monitoring the chart/price movement, do you also monitor the Aud$/US$ chart/price movement?


----------



## tech/a (28 November 2013)

What's all this chart rubbish on this thread.
If its to demonstrate supposedly profitable Chart trading---its doing a dismal job!

If I was thinking about trading technically Id be convinced its for nutters!
Fortunately I know better but many here DONT!


----------



## barney (28 November 2013)

tech/a said:


> What's all this chart rubbish on this thread.
> If its to demonstrate supposedly profitable Chart trading---its doing a dismal job!
> 
> If I was thinking about trading technically Id be convinced its for nutters!
> Fortunately I know better but many here DONT!




mmm ..... technical analysis at work ....


----------



## Caveroute (28 November 2013)

This may be of interest - public domain price action presentation form Al Brooks - 

I gave a presentation at the TradersExpo in Las Vegas on November 22, 2013 on Forex scalping and many traders have asked me for a copy. I went ahead and turned it into a one hour video, which is a mini Forex trading course on scalping.

To see the video, please click on this YouTube link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNTMUJHlvmo


----------



## tech/a (28 November 2013)

barney said:


> mmm ..... technical analysis at work ....




No No your not taking this seriously.

Here a competent technician is at work.





Obviously not me I'm a Duck.


----------



## Trembling Hand (28 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Test it now on out of sample data.






tech/a said:


> See above* I know *what he's done its the only way he could code it.
> The code will show it in a jiff.




Bumb


GB......... any comment??


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 November 2013)

for newcomers to ASF and young traders who are being taught orhtodox methods, i apologise for my mess

it's a mess that works for me

so, here's a study i've had running for a while that i've updated....it might suit orthodox thinking, that is, it may fit more comfortably within ones own framework

for the XJO + todays updated and active trades....these are positions inline with a method to grab a very large zone play (to the downside) and the negative aspect is that i am short-only in this while trading other things in a more hands-on, moment by moment, completely unorthodox technique.....i've screen traded since 1992

currently, volatility is low and i am reading plays correctly, this is a very good period...soon enough volatility is going to pick up and my average win/loss will come back down...reading when and where is part of my process...for me...as a trader you need to be fully cognizant of your self and your strengths and weaknesses and each part of those is by growth and reacting/planning on the run with those parts...

anyways, onto the study and the play so far for the XJO, by the charts and a simply measuring tool
what cannot be seen within the charts is intent and positioning by the other accounts on the other side of my trades.....that, is the game that a chart can only elude to as a record of business and how the auction is being used

http://www.asiaonthebid.com/showthread.php/236-XJO-other-studies?p=1010#post1010




a trader must back him/herself ....and these are just words on a screen..... interpretation speaks of the interpreter in ways, they themselves, may not appreciate.....

price is not boxed by method

all everyone has are...... ideas


----------



## Trembling Hand (28 November 2013)

Here are a few good patterns I found that proves TA works,

face on Mars



Angry bag man



Angry Mop



Werewolf



And my fav setup,


Face in birdsh!te. That is TA 101.


----------



## CanOz (28 November 2013)

Forgive me for adding to this off topic nonsense....but i couldn't resist showing off my photo of this half face pattern in this 300m+ granite rock face in Mongolia....in the second shot, the close up, you can see my mate Sam fishing...

People see pattens in all kinds of things....

Pattern can be defined as a repeated form, so it doesn't necessarily need to be on a chart. 

Personally the most reliable patterns are events that happen in the market. Examples....test of the O/Night high or low, opening swing high and low, test of the prior day OHLC, or even Prior session VWAP.

You can also see these on the a chart, then watch for the participants reaction in the DOM and the T&S.


----------



## McLovin (28 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Here are a few good patterns I found that proves TA works,




My personal favourite.

I'll let you work it out...


----------



## barney (28 November 2013)

McLovin said:


> My personal favourite.
> 
> I'll let you work it out...
> 
> View attachment 55580





Easy Mac ............ 

There are  "Windows" everywhere ..... It looks suspiciously like where they shot "The Bill", and there are "Gates" all across the front to stop access to the front doors ....

Windows, Bill, Gates  ...... and no chance of getting entry to what's inside ...... Its obviously your latest trade on  "Microsoft":


----------



## skc (28 November 2013)

McLovin said:


> My personal favourite.
> 
> I'll let you work it out...




A building that looks like Hitler?


----------



## tech/a (28 November 2013)

Nothing
Its whatever you want it to be.

What can I say I'm a chartist!


----------



## McLovin (28 November 2013)

skc said:


> A building that looks like Hitler?




Yeah you're right! It's been a good day for you.

And who says there isn't a website for everything...

http://acidcow.com/pics/18975-buildings-that-look-like-faces-100-pics.html


----------



## burglar (28 November 2013)

skc said:


> A building that looks like Hitler?




Even after you told me what it is, I still could not see it.

I needed to take six paces back;-  and then squint.





Maybe there is a lesson, right there. ::


----------



## kid hustlr (29 November 2013)

Joules MM1 said:


> for newcomers to ASF and young traders who are being taught orhtodox methods, i apologise for my mess
> 
> it's a mess that works for me
> 
> ...




Starting to look healthy


----------



## barney (29 November 2013)

Not your traditional chart analysis, but the kind of stuff I look for in FX .....

Some daily divergence between the EUR/USD and the GBP/USD .... therefore looking for Long entries on the EUR/GBP


----------



## barney (29 November 2013)

barney said:


> Not your traditional chart analysis, but the kind of stuff I look for in FX .....
> 
> Some daily divergence between the EUR/USD and the GBP/USD .... therefore looking for Long entries on the EUR/GBP




Panned out ok in the medium term ..... made a few pips ........ Euro definitely stronger than the Pound tonight across the board ........ Chart analysis correct (this time lol ...... 

I called it live so happy with that


----------



## Trembling Hand (30 November 2013)

tech/a said:


> If the only input is as you have stated
> 
> Something is wrong.
> It would simply get smashed.
> ...




GB got anything on this to help your questionable results?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 November 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> GB got anything on this to help your questionable results?




I got nuthin'.  However it didn't use the Zig function, nor did it reference the future in any way.  Can't de-bug it.


----------



## tech/a (30 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I got nuthin'.  However it didn't use the Zig function, nor did it reference the future in any way.  Can't de-bug it.




Tell you what GB
You give me the code and  if it's not a derivative of the zig zag function 
I'll send Joe $500
If it does doesn't  I'm sure you'll contribute.

If you referencing a pull back from a high there is no other way to do it.

Come on shut the smart **** duck up!


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 November 2013)

tech/a said:


> Tell you what GB
> You give me the code and  if it's not a derivative of the zig zag function
> I'll send Joe $500
> If it does doesn't  I'm sure you'll contribute.
> ...




Just use fractal pivots to define major turning points.  There's plenty of code on the net for free.  As with the Zig function, you must allow 'n' bars after the pivot has been identified to avoid future referencing - it can be done safely.  One way to do this is to have a delayed entry.  Measure the distance between the high and low points, then apply whatever ratio you want to the last high fractal pivot.


----------



## tech/a (30 November 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just use fractal pivots to define major turning points.  There's plenty of code on the net for free.  As with the Zig function, you must allow 'n' bars after the pivot has been identified to avoid future referencing - it can be done safely.  One way to do this is to have a delayed entry.  Measure the distance between the high and low points, then apply whatever ratio you want to the last high fractal pivot.




The code you used where is that just cut and paste it here.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (30 November 2013)

tech/a said:


> The code you used where is that just cut and paste it here.




DO THIS, DO THAT.

I don't like orders much.  Here:  http://www.wisestocktrader.com/indicatorpasties/493-fractals

If you want to buy a custom code I had made for me which combines the fractals and Fibo (no buy/sell signals yet), I might consider that.


----------



## tech/a (1 December 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> DO THIS, DO THAT.
> 
> I don't like orders much.  Here:  http://www.wisestocktrader.com/indicatorpasties/493-fractals
> 
> If you want to buy a custom code I had made for me which combines the fractals and Fibo (no buy/sell signals yet), I might consider that.




This sort of rubbish doesn't help the technical analysis cause.

All secretive voodoo.

As I thought totally useless.
You presented something to " prove analysis " and when challenged
Cough up nothing with huff and puff.

Me---I don't like waffle much.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 December 2013)

tech/a said:


> This sort of rubbish doesn't help the technical analysis cause.
> 
> All secretive voodoo.
> 
> ...




If I give you the synthesized codes, perhaps you could pay for the upgrade to backtestable status.  Up to you.

I already said my own additions to the code were problematic, which is why I withdrew that post.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 December 2013)

Here's a version which is actually as good as my paid one.  

http://www.wisestocktrader.com/indicatorpasties/354-alternative-zig-type-function-fibs-added


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 December 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Here's a version which is actually as good as my paid one.
> 
> http://www.wisestocktrader.com/indicatorpasties/354-alternative-zig-type-function-fibs-added




You ran a test with it GB? (I don't have AB)


----------



## Gringotts Bank (1 December 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> You ran a test with it GB? (I don't have AB)




As it is, it's not backtestable.  I'm sure the correct buy/sell signals could be added.  Maybe I'll ask the AB help thread later.

I'm not nearly so excited about this.  Bulkowski's research isn't supportive: http://thepatternsite.com/SwingSetup.html    Also, Ed Pottasch (the author) doesn't seem very interested in the idea, and he is very good on systems trading.

Looks like this.


----------

