# Options for investing 40k



## The Red Baron (13 May 2006)

Hi Everyone

I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to keeping my mind open to different investments. Just wondering what investments are out there.

I'm 23 been saving the past 4-5 years, currently just have my money sitting in a online account earning 6% interest. I have no loans or outstanding debts. 

I'll be looking at moving out of home in the next 12-24mths and looking at using my savings as a deposit, hoping the Perth housing market cools down a bit by then. I can't live at home forever!

I'm not chasing or expecting 20-30% returns, i'm more than happy with a solid 10% return or anything a bit more with my current 6%.

cheers


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## ctp6360 (13 May 2006)

I would say split the money in 2 and buy two 20k parcels in some nice blue chip stocks, its hard to go wrong at the moment. I think BHP and ZFX are definitely worth a look, and I've put my money where my mouth is with those ones.

I think the important thing you have to do is sit down and work out the risk/reward situation, and work out the level of risk that you are comfortable tolerating. You already said that you're comfortable with steady, non-volatile returns, and I think in that respect going for a bigger blue chip is your way to go.

The two stocks I mentioned are commodities based, so they're probably not as "safe" as, say, banking stocks (ANZ is a solid gainer by the way), however I think you'll see the most growth with the stocks I mentioned as the year progresses.


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## BSD (13 May 2006)

If you need the $$$ in 12-24 months, do not put it in anything other than cash or similar deposits. 

The volatility in investments like shares could mean you are living at home longer than you would prefer.

Getting an extra 4% return is only $1600 

Not worth the risk of losing 20% - in my opinion


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## money tree (13 May 2006)

BSD is spot on.

Interest rates are rising. Cash is king. Real estate is in decline. Stocks have topped. Cash will be the best performing asset over the next 2 years. Plus its nearly risk free.


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## crackaton (13 May 2006)

money tree said:
			
		

> BSD is spot on.
> 
> Interest rates are rising. Cash is king. Real estate is in decline. Stocks have topped. Cash will be the best performing asset over the next 2 years. Plus its nearly risk free.




MMM I beg to differ here. I would buy gold and silver given you live in WA. Also look at some decent miners in this area about to go into production. MMN URL and AEX come to mind.

The guy is young and can afford to take some risks. Why bother with boring old banks?


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## RichKid (13 May 2006)

The Red Baron said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone
> 
> I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to keeping my mind open to different investments. Just wondering what investments are out there.
> 
> ...




Red Baron,
Welcome to ASF, while you've probably seen some great replies please be aware that none of it should be construed as financial advice, you would need to see a qualified professional for that. Please read the forum code of conduct and posting guidelines and browse through the Beginner's section.


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## crackaton (13 May 2006)

RichKid said:
			
		

> Red Baron,
> Welcome to ASF, while you've probably seen some great replies please be aware that none of it should be construed as financial advice, you would need to see a qualified professional for that. Please read the forum code of conduct and posting guidelines and browse through the Beginner's section.




Yes good point. As always any posts by me are my opinions only, OK. That is what forumns are for. Communication of ones opinions and knowledge. Nothing more. Anything one does with the information is up to them.


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## The Red Baron (13 May 2006)

Thanks everyone for their opinions. 

Around 3 years ago I held shares in BHP, CBA, WBC, WPL, ALN, BSL, ERG, VBA just small $2.5k packages. Wouldn't buy that small packages again, learnt costs took away too much of the profit. Made around a 10-20% profit on most and sold them. 

Looking back I wish I still had them now but oh well! On the other side I was lucky to sell ERG and VBA for a small profit. 

I would like to get back into shares but feel like i've missed the boat a bit. I've also looked at a few houses in Perth just to get a feel for what I would be looking at and they have all gone 20-30k over the asking price, is crazy at the moment. 

I might have to do a bit more research and reading and just keep plugging away into the online account and hope some opportunities arise.

cheers


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## crackaton (13 May 2006)

The Red Baron said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for their opinions.
> 
> Around 3 years ago I held shares in BHP, CBA, WBC, WPL, ALN, BSL, ERG, VBA just small $2.5k packages. Wouldn't buy that small packages again, learnt costs took away too much of the profit. Made around a 10-20% profit on most and sold them.
> 
> ...





So why bother even posting to begin with? Sounds like you get off talking to yourself.


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## grumpee boi (16 May 2006)

Red Baron,

Firstly to have saved that amount of money at your age is great - well done.  Secondly, since you intend to use the money in the short-term it really should only be placed in those sorts of investments - fixed interest and the like.  I think you probably should keep up what you are doing.

Another point is that with that sort of deposit then you should have no problem sourcing a housing loan.  There are many lenders that only require a 5% deposit, quite a few willing to take on 3% and there are ones that will lend 100% and (heaven forbid) 105%.  The point is no matter what the market is like in WA at the moment you will more than likely find financing.  The big variable is on your ability to service it.  That is, how is your employment?

I once read on another forum that the best time to invest in your own home is when you can afford it.  I think that that is pretty good advice because even though the value of your own home may dip or go sideways for a while it is your own home and there are many strategies that you can apply later on when it does increase in value to leverage your wealth accumulation.  Anyway, good luck.

Adam


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

> I'll be looking at moving out of home in the next 12-24mths and looking at using my savings as a deposit, hoping the Perth housing market cools down a bit by then. I can't live at home forever!




Houses are like shares, great to buy when they are not overvalued, but wise to sell when they are.

Perth to me seems overvalued atm, I would not buy property in Perth now or for the next few years.  The world's most isolated city, in the emptiest state, in the emptiest country in the world. If you think land is scarce or valuable there you are dreaming. Sure it is a nice city, Sydney people are moving there cause Sydney is too expensive and the mining boom is creating jobs.  But....

It is a small isolated city in the middle of nowhere, interest rates are rising, Sydney prices are dropping, and the mining boom is just that, a boom - it wont last.

Rent!!  use the money you save to buy shares!

A $400,000 loan at 7% is $28,000 a year in interest - what can you rent for $28,000 a year in Perth? 

Alan Bond or Laine Hancocks house I bet.   :grinsking 

Sydney is 3 years ahead of Perth in terms of property values, learn from the decline in Sydney.  If you bought in Sydney 3 years ago you'd have lost 10% and be paying higher interest rates than expected - you'd be out of pocket big time.

I give Perth another 6 months of rises then a nice 5 years of decline.


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## wayneL (1 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> Houses are like shares, great to buy when they are not overvalued, but wise to sell when they are.
> 
> Perth to me seems overvalued atm, I would not buy property in Perth now or for the next few years.  The world's most isolated city, in the emptiest state, in the emptiest country in the world. If you think land is scarce or valuable there you are dreaming. Sure it is a nice city, Sydney people are moving there cause Sydney is too expensive and the mining boom is creating jobs.  But....
> 
> ...





AMEN!!


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

What amazes me is that a 23 year old has managed to save $40K.

At 23 I was worth about minus $100 and that would have been blown on cheap alcohol and even cheaper women on the upcoming weekend if I had it.

If you have it in the bank at 6% interest, just leave it, but pay close attention to the sharemarket, look for a real good stock, in a market leader with a competitive advantage, a great brand, it makes a good profit every year, pays good dividends, has room to grow, and will be around for years, study it and wait for the right time and right price to buy it, Buy it when it is down!!  Then hold onto it for the next 42 years, and reinvest the dividends.    

Then when you are 65 you can impress the chicks at your retirement home with this story of how you became so god damn rich!

What shares would I recommend that qualify for this?   Hmm maybe  Fosters, BHP, Westfield, Woolworths, CBA.  They should still be around in 42 years time.

But remember buy them cheap! Wait and be patient.


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## tech/a (1 June 2006)

Realist.

Striking resemblance to Prospector.

Must be sisters.
$40k would be handy for a make over.


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

> Realist.
> 
> Striking resemblance to Prospector.




 :nono: 

Not quite....

Can you guess who my picture is actually of?  

It aint me of course and I'm not even a fan of the guy, infact I dislike the bastard!


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## Porper (1 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> :nono:
> 
> Not quite....
> 
> ...




If you hate him so much, why have a picture of our good old Johnny Wilkinson when he single handidly beat the Aussies in the last rugby world cup final.:screwy:


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## The Mint Man (1 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> If you bought in Sydney 3 years ago you'd have lost 10% and be paying higher interest rates than expected - you'd be out of pocket big time.




Totally agree.
Red baron, Im 23 too. I live on the central coast NSW about 1 1/2 hours north of Sydney.
Anyway, about 2-3 years ago two of my mates bought houses both around the $330000-340000 mark. At the time I thought that this was a bad deciscion based on what the market had done and what I thought it may do afterwards. I thought they would lose money on their investment, and they have. They would both be very (and I mean VERY!) lucky to get $300000 now IMO. They would have been better off renting and saving the money assotiated with owning a house and investing it elsewhere until the property market went down, which it was starting to show signs of doing when they actually bought  
I know the exact position your in (even the same age), you want to have your own place, but I would suggest to hold off as long as it suits your situation!
I have recently bought a house in an area (on the central coast) that I feel is really starting to move ahead with local jobs, infrastructure etc and is close to schools, shops, hospital, 10 min from freeway etc. It is in a quiet street with the lake less then 100m away (see it from front yard, if built up would have views) 581sqm so plenty of room to build etc. whats more I got it for $215000 (bank valued it at $245000) as the vendor needed to sell. All this just 20 min down the road from where my mates bought a couple of years ago.

Its all about timing. 
Like I said I know how you feel but if you are making your decision based on an investment value as much as an 'I want my own place' value then you will have to compromise based on the current market over there IMO.
I waited a couple of years and it paid off. I got both values mentiond above in one but I had to sacrifice the 'i want my own place' value for a couple of years in order to get it.

As realist said, your probably going to see a couple of year downturn. So if I were you I would be putting that money in other investments. 
Mabey you could keep half where you have it now and half in shares so that your not taking on as much risk. that way you would always have $20000, a decent deposit indeed and $20000 potentially working extra hard for you.

At the end of the day we could all probably go on forever saying what would be the best road to go down but ultimatly you have to make the decision based on what you want, what you expect to get from it and if you would (logicaly) get that in the current market.

my  

Mint Man :grinsking


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## Ageo (1 June 2006)

If it were me? learn all the different instruments on how you can turn that 40k into 400k over the next few yrs. 

i.e if you have that strong of a view on a particular stock that it will continue to rise then instead of buying shares why not trade CFD's over them? 

All im saying is if you want to take the path onto wealth then you will need to learn about leverage.

"Its advantages, weakness's etc..."

Dont let the gloom factor kick in, its all about learning. If your prepared to learn and apply your knowledge you can turn that 40k into a million in no time. Others have done it, so i cant see why you cant either. If people bag you just ask them one question:

"are you a multi millionaire? if yes fantastic lets talk, if not then thanks for coming".

P.S im only 22 mate (going on 23) so dont let age deter you in anyway, 40k in savings is fantastic. Learn how to invest wisely and you will never have to work again (if you dont choose to).

Adrian


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## Porper (1 June 2006)

Ageo said:
			
		

> Dont let the gloom factor kick in, its all about learning. If your prepared to learn and apply your knowledge you can turn that 40k into a million in no time.




Before you get carried away with all the advice about turning 40K into a million in no time business you need to learn how to protect your capital first and foremost.It is not easy making high returns with limited risk to your capital.

Learn about money/risk management before gambling 40K away to try and make a ridiculous amount of money straight away.


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## dennisll (1 June 2006)

Hi Red Baron,

I'd say use your 40K as a deposit for your own house.  You already mentioned you wanted to move out in 12-24 months so in that case I wouldn't recommend risking your deposit money in the sharemarket.  

Why wait 12-24 months anyway?  Just like the sharemarket, there are always opportunities available.  If you're not ready to move out, buy your property, live in it for 6 months to get the FHOG, then rent it out until you want to move in permanently.  Very hard to go wrong with purchasing your own home as your first step into your investing career.  Not only will you be purchasing a solid asset that is near certain to appreciate in value over time, but you will also be educated into a disciplined savings routine as you meet your monthly amortization payments.  Borrow conservatively so you can get ahead of your loan quickly, then when you have built some equity look at using that to start off your sharemarket foray.  

May sound surprising given that this is a shares forum, but that's what I recommend 

Good Luck,

Dennis


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

> why have a picture of our good old Johnny Wilkinson when he single handidly beat the Aussies in the last rugby world cup final.




Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.      

Nahh, I just like the photo.     




> Its all about timing.




It sure is!!

I don't own a house and unfortunately I'm a bit older than you guys.  
But, I could not afford a house in Sydney 7 years ago, some of my friends could, so for years I had to sit at dinner parties hearing about how much money they were making, and how I should invest and how just painting a feature wall was so worthwhile, and how a few renovations have made them thousands.   :swear: 

My friends all did make alot of money, in some cases nearly $200,000.

But... I am a patient man, very very patient.

I did not buy because I knew I had missed the boom and I did not want to catch the bust. Every person I know told me to buy, Sydney prices were rocketing and programs like the Block and what not were encouraging everyone to buy a place, do it up, and sell it for $200K more 6 months later.

I rented instead, I got a nice 2 storeyed apartment in one of Sydney's most expensive suburbs and I pay $175 a week sharing with a chick. I still pay the same amount now. I pay less than $10K a year.   

So my friends make a good profit, sometimes just a paper profit which they still perceive as real, then they get greedy, they buy investment properties, or a ****hole in a good area as a do up.

Fast forward to this year, they are redrawing off their mortgages, trying to sell and nobody will buy, they've sacrificed their $35K first home owners grant (including stamp duty concession) and they are stressed out and skimping and saving to make ends meet. Interest rates are rising, house prices are going down. Amazingly 2 lots of friends are selling and going to rent instead!    

Me, I'm still renting and putting what I am not paying on mortgage interest rates into shares.

I'm waiting until rents go up, interest rates go up, and houses come down more, then I'll mortgage myself to the hilt!  I wanna catch the next boom!!

Maybe in a couple of years my friends will be renting when I own a home!    :grinsking 

Not that I am in competition with them but it would amuse me, as I said I remember those dinner parties well. Feature walls - oh dear!  Property is now a dirty word with them.


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## Ageo (1 June 2006)

Porper said:
			
		

> Before you get carried away with all the advice about turning 40K into a million in no time business you need to learn how to protect your capital first and foremost.It is not easy making high returns with limited risk to your capital.
> 
> Learn about money/risk management before gambling 40K away to try and make a ridiculous amount of money straight away.




Hehe Porper i didnt say its going to happen overnight, but if your determined, put the time and effort in and willing enough then it is very possible indeed.

A 1 big part of that learning is as you mentioned money/risk management.


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

How quickly could you turn $40K into $1M after tax?     

Assuming I earn no additional money to contribute to this it'd take me many many years. But I'd get there without losing it.

Anyone who thinks they can do this fairly quickly is dreaming. Tax for one will kill you.


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## wayneL (1 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> How quickly could you turn $40K into $1M after tax?
> 
> Assuming I earn no additional money to contribute to this it'd take me many many years. But I'd get there without losing it.
> 
> Anyone who thinks they can do this fairly quickly is dreaming. Tax for one will kill you.




It's a piece of p!$$ according to at least one options guru. In fact he claims to be able to turn $2k into a million in a year. "Just double up 9 times and you're done" ........... easy! (Then presumably you do a runner and live happily ever after in the Bahamas)

I really do despair that people fall for this $%^&.


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

> a piece of p!$$ according to at least one options guru. In fact he claims to be able to turn $2k into a million in a year. "





Smart guy obviously.    

And generous too!!

Instead of actually doing it himself and making trillions for himself he teaches other people how to do it for a small fee.

Where do I sign up for this?    :freak3:


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

Investing $40K and getting a 10% return after tax and brokerage fees etc each and every year (which is definately not easy) would take..

10 years to get to $100,000

27 years to get to $500K 

And 34 years to get to $1M

BUT.... That $1M would only be worth $340K in todays money cause a 3% yearly inflation eats away it's purchasing value.

It would take nearly a lifetime to do it realistically!!


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## wayneL (1 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> Smart guy obviously.
> 
> And generous too!!
> 
> ...




Would you like the basic course for $1999.99. This will only make you a few million.

But for $7999.99, you can have the super duper, ultra special, top secret, available only to the lucky few, prooooooooofessional option traders course. 

We'll have you shouting Bill Gates and Warren Buffet at the Ritz and asking you the secret to your trillion dollar fortune by next week.

Sign right here_________________________      :casanova:


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## Realist (1 June 2006)

Hmm, I saw this ad, or something similar when I was in the States 2 weeks ago.

Barmen, and housewives were telling me how they made megabucks trading on foreign exchanges in their spare time.

I gotta admit I would sign up if I lived in the states.

But.....

Only out of curiosity, it has a 30 day money back guarantee, I'd sign up, read about it, laugh at most of it and return it for free. 

So if you "invest" $2K and double it to $4K, then after tax you've only got $3K.  How many trades do you need to make the $1M if you actually pay tax?

After 9 trades where you double your money..

$2
$3
$4.5
$6.75
$10K
$15
$22.5
$33.75
$50K
$75K

You only end up with $75K    

Is not roulette a better option?


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## nizar (1 June 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> Would you like the basic course for $1999.99. This will only make you a few million.
> 
> But for $7999.99, you can have the super duper, ultra special, top secret, available only to the lucky few, prooooooooofessional option traders course.
> 
> ...




Hahahah !  

Wayne thats GOLD... ur best post yet!  :


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## Ageo (1 June 2006)

Hehe, Wayne ill be up for your course but on 1 condition.


You have to dress up in a Bear suit!


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## clowboy (1 June 2006)

Living and owning in perth , I can see some faultlines starting to show in the property market already.  Seen quite a few articles as of late saying how tight things are for people and bankruptcies on the rise etc etc.  We havent even seen a rate rise yet either.  0.5% would get people talking, 1-2% would prove an interesting experiment.

Having said all that, I can't be too quick to discount the china saga, mining is big time booming ATM and people are earning bucket loads.


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## wayneL (2 June 2006)

Ageo said:
			
		

> Hehe, Wayne ill be up for your course but on 1 condition.
> 
> 
> You have to dress up in a Bear suit!




For 8k a pop I'll dress anyway you like   

​


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## Ageo (2 June 2006)

LOL imagine walking on the floors of the Sydney Futures Exchange with tha suit.


hehe i think it would be a fantastic strategy to put them off their game.


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## Dan_ (2 June 2006)

wayneL said:
			
		

> For 8k a pop I'll dress anyway you like




This has got to be the post/pict of the year  

BTW has all those year trading the USA left you feeling stuffed at all?


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## The Mint Man (2 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> I had to sit at dinner parties hearing about how much money they were making, and how I should invest and how just painting a feature wall was so worthwhile, and how a few renovations have made them thousands.   :swear:



While my situation wasnt as bad as that, I hear what your saying. Also on top of that, God knows what my missus had to listen to from my mates girls. baby and wedding talk etc etc etc. haha, give me a break quit the extream smalltalk  



			
				Realist said:
			
		

> Fast forward to this year, they are redrawing off their mortgages, trying to sell and nobody will buy, they've sacrificed their $35K first home owners grant (including stamp duty concession) and they are stressed out and skimping and saving to make ends meet. Interest rates are rising, house prices are going down. Amazingly 2 lots of friends are selling and going to rent instead!



so they got cocky and couldnt realise that what they were doing was too good to be true, it wasn't goinmg to last forever. When you invest you have to have some sort of plan and their plan worked in the market they were in at the time, however if you want to make money in every market (up, down, sidewards) your plan has to continuously change. Seems to me that they became complacent with what they were doing and just kept doing it.


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## The Red Baron (2 June 2006)

I'm looking moving out of home and renting with a mate. He's in nice little pad 5km (push bike riding distance) from my work in the Perth CBD. Has a balcony with a gas fitting so i can fire up the bbq and have a few beers, so im happy. $120 each a week. can't complain pay $50 board a week living at home anyway.

Just got the $40k in a Bankwest Online account 6.4% interest, get some cash taken out every pay so i dont see it. Works out well so i doesnt go to the grog, taxis or late night dodgy kebabs. 

Still have my 14 nights at Bounty Hotel every year in Bali. Wouldn't mind a Euro Contieki trip but would take out a nice cut out of my deposit.

Grumpee Boi, i've been working at same place for 6 years now. But its my income thats killing me. I'm only looking at a 200k loan + my deposit. In the Perth market at the moment, wont get me very much at all.

I'm happy to wait and see if any an opportunity arises.


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## binh25 (2 June 2006)

Stay away from Rio and BHP,  They are good company but the price for their stock is now all speculation.... in another word Over Price..


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## Ageo (2 June 2006)

Baron before buying a house i suggest you read Steve Mcknight's book.

"0 to 130 properties in 3.5yrs"

Once you read that, you will understand that your precious deposit could actually be building your real estate portfolio (for positive cashflow) and im not just talking about finding cashflow positive properties but more so wrapping properties, lease options etc.. (which you will learn about in the book).

6.4% in your bank is better than nothing but IMO can be used much more effectively in so many areas. Thats if your looking to increase it of course...


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## Sean K (2 June 2006)

Binh, BHPs PE is about 11. Overpriced? The company will come in with the biggest corporate profit in history once again this year. Probably one of the safest bets around at the moment.


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## mit (2 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> Hmm, I saw this ad, or something similar when I was in the States 2 weeks ago.
> 
> Barmen, and housewives were telling me how they made megabucks trading on foreign exchanges in their spare time.
> 
> ...





Not quite right as you double nine times in the year. So you only pay tax at the end so it is

2
4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1024

and then pay tax on the $1022k that you made which would leave you with

$513k. Still nice.

MIT


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## Ageo (2 June 2006)

mit said:
			
		

> Not quite right as you double nine times in the year. So you only pay tax at the end so it is
> 
> 2
> 4
> ...





From only 2k? hehe i think its safe to say that it is more than nice.


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## Realist (2 June 2006)

> Not quite right as you double nine times in the year. So you only pay tax at the end so it is




True.

If you trade 9 times in one year doubling your money you will end up with $513K, so I suppose 10 trades gets you $1M.


Hmm, maybe I will sign up for this scheme..

Where do I send the money again?     :freak3:


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## Ageo (2 June 2006)

Realist said:
			
		

> True.
> 
> If you trade 9 times in one year doubling your money you will end up with $513K, so I suppose 10 trades gets you $1M.
> 
> ...





Give the money to Wayne!

P.S if you sign up in the next 30mins he will even reduce the price from 8k to 4k for dressing up as a bear!

Thats 50% off! unbelievable, but dont wait as you will miss out...........


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## wayneL (2 June 2006)

Ageo said:
			
		

> Give the money to Wayne!
> 
> P.S if you sign up in the next 30mins he will even reduce the price from 8k to 4k for dressing up as a bear!
> 
> Thats 50% off! unbelievable, but dont wait as you will miss out...........




But wait! There's More!!!!

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Our exclusive option symology guide, worth $399

Our beautifully printed option strategy chart to hang on your wall, all printed on glossy paper and in COLOUR, worth at least $599

We'll give you access to our secret broker, who already knows our secret strategies that nobody else knows, worth at least $1299

And That's not All!!!!

We'll throw in our excell strategy modelling software, worth over $12,000!!!!!!! FREE!!!!

We'll even give rights to our affiliate program, surely worth $1,000,000,000 in profits over the next year!!!

THAT"S OVER $1,000,018,000 WORTH OF EXTRAS, ALL FREE IF YOU SIGN...ERRR WELL THERE'S ONLY 3 MINUTES LEFT FOR YOU TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS NEVER TO BE REPEARED OFFER (until tommorrow)!!! PRESS THE BUY BUTTON *NOW* BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!


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## The Mint Man (2 June 2006)

**** that!!! :swear: 
all I wanted was a set of steak knives 
god damn it.


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## wayneL (2 June 2006)

The Mint Man said:
			
		

> **** that!!! :swear:
> all I wanted was a set of steak knives
> god damn it.




Now that's asking way too much!!!


Hahahahah!


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## The Mint Man (2 June 2006)

why? cause that would be worth something : 
At least I could use it to feed myself... but then again, I might not have any money for food in the first place


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## justjohn (2 June 2006)

The Mint Man said:
			
		

> why? cause that would be worth something :
> At least I could use it to feed myself... but then again, I might not have any money for food in the first place



Mint Man just hand the $2000 over to wayne and be done with it .You have to trust someone who is willing to dress up in a bear suit :screwy: stuff the steak knives i saw where you are coming in the stock comp you need all the help you can get :swear:


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