# Importing Migrant Workers



## dutchie (25 May 2012)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-gine-rinehart/story-fn9hm1gu-1226366976152

Is it just me or have we gone crazy.

How many people here are unemployed (and rising)??


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## Klogg (25 May 2012)

dutchie said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-gine-rinehart/story-fn9hm1gu-1226366976152
> 
> Is it just me or have we gone crazy.
> 
> How many people here are unemployed (and rising)??




Yes, but do they want to work? And are they prepared to re-locate to do so?

A great deal of my extended family is not well-off at all, some of them on unemployment benefits. For most, it's not that they can't get a job, it's that they're too lazy to get one. 
And for the others, they'd rather stay on unemployment benefits than change states.

Obviously it doesn't encompass everyone, but most are within these bounds.


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## macca (25 May 2012)

Yep, I agree, we should start a political party just like the Labor party used to be, one for the workers.

The mob in there now are all professional pollies, not really for the workers at all IMO.

There are plenty of people over east willing to work in WA in the mines. I know the place that just lost 400 from the aluminium smelter would probably have a few happy to go to WA for work.

Just place a big ad in all the eastern papers, soon get workers I reckon, people are paying thousands for training courses so that they are ready to work in the mines then find there are no jobs ????


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## medicowallet (25 May 2012)

dutchie said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-gine-rinehart/story-fn9hm1gu-1226366976152
> 
> Is it just me or have we gone crazy.
> 
> How many people here are unemployed (and rising)??




100000 tradies that are willing to work for reasonable wages would be nice.

Perhaps some from europe over the next couple of years, could be like the post WW2 boom we had before, one of the reasons Australia developed well over the past 60 years.

MW


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## johenmo (25 May 2012)

medicowallet said:


> 100000 tradies that are willing to work for reasonable wages would be nice.
> 
> Perhaps some from europe over the next couple of years, could be like the post WW2 boom we had before, one of the reasons Australia developed well over the past 60 years.
> 
> MW




Talked with a mine sparkie who got made redundant when a mine closed 12 months ago - the visa sparkies were on 1/3 of the local sparkies packages, saving about 100K per person per year.  Lots of incentive if you're the owner.  And OZ is pricing itself out of the global market in many ways, not just labour.

If you can get a trade, a tradie does a lot better than may uni grads now - but some of these have knackered bodies by 50ish!  A desk jockey can usually continue longer.

There are some jobs (fruit picking) which locals won't do ('coz it's harder than it seems) - backpackers & migrants have made up the numbers for years.  The "working poor" would in many cases be better off on a benefit.

MW - be wary of tradies from Europe.  Some may be Muslim (reference to another thread)!!!


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## Julia (25 May 2012)

Klogg said:


> Yes, but do they want to work? And are they prepared to re-locate to do so?
> 
> A great deal of my extended family is not well-off at all, some of them on unemployment benefits. For most, it's not that they can't get a job, it's that they're too lazy to get one.
> And for the others, they'd rather stay on unemployment benefits than change states.
> ...



 Good point.  Perhaps employers want people who will just do the job.
Unlike the workforce at BHP Mitsubishi Alliance who have announced they will not work for a week.

I'd like to see imported workers take up these jobs.


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## Smurf1976 (25 May 2012)

The word from employment agencies is don't bother going to the mines unless you have very specific skills. 

I'm no socialist and not one who routinely sides with unions and the like. But to be very polite, the mining companies are taking us for a ride on this one. There are plenty of people who would give these jobs a go if given a chance at training and relocation (which is exactly what the foreign workers will be doing).

It's the pursuit of cheap labour. Nothing more and nothing less.


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## prawn_86 (25 May 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm no socialist and not one who routinely sides with unions and the like. But to be very polite, the mining companies are taking us for a ride on this one. There are plenty of people who would give these jobs a go if given a chance at training and relocation (which is exactly what the foreign workers will be doing).
> 
> It's the pursuit of cheap labour. Nothing more and nothing less.




While i agree with this, i think that there is also a lot of people who wouldnt be willing to relocate or FIFO and i doubt they would be able to find 7500 people.

Personally i know i could go to numerous different mines and have a job within a day, but many people just aren't willing


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 May 2012)

prawn_86 said:


> While i agree with this, i think that there is also a lot of people who wouldnt be willing to relocate or FIFO and i doubt they would be able to find 7500 people.
> 
> Personally i know i could go to numerous different mines and have a job within a day, but many people just aren't willing




Our nation has become soft.

If we cannot do the work, we need to encourage fit working migrants to bolster our slack workers.

It has always been thus.

Australia is a nation of migrants.

gg


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## overit (25 May 2012)

I've done FIFO for a few years in the mining/ construction game in the pilbara as a trades assistant. Always had my eye out for traineeships or apprenticeships. Rare as hens teeth in the circles I travel unless your indigenous. I've never been on a project where they couldnt have got more workers if they'd just asked around. Always plenty of people trying to get on site. 

I dont know where they advertise for these jobs. RIO was in the paper a few weeks ago talking about going on a recruiting spree, wanting 6000 workers. Last time I looked they had 170 jobs on their website. Go figure!


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## So_Cynical (26 May 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> The word from employment agencies is don't bother going to the mines unless you have very specific skills.
> 
> I'm no socialist and not one who routinely sides with unions and the like. But to be very polite, the mining companies are taking us for a ride on this one. There are plenty of people who would give these jobs a go if given a chance at training and relocation (which is exactly what the foreign workers will be doing).
> 
> *It's the pursuit of cheap labour. Nothing more and nothing less*.




+1

There is a near total lack of fair dinkumness about the mining job shortages.


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## Ferret (26 May 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's the pursuit of cheap labour. Nothing more and nothing less.




Agree too.

I can't understand why these mining magnates enjoy so much popular support.

They make millions digging up resources that belong to us all.  They fight tooth and nail to minimise the taxes they pay for doing this.  Now they're not even willing to provide Australians with jobs to do the digging.


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## Starcraftmazter (26 May 2012)

Klogg said:


> Yes, but do they want to work? And are they prepared to re-locate to do so?




A better question is, why the hell should they have the right to make such choices? 

Get rid of welfare and the minimum wage - overnight labour shortages will end (except of course very highly skilled labour such as doctors).


I don't want to pointlessly import more people into the country to put yet more pressure on our 3rd world infrastructure.


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## numbercruncher (26 May 2012)

I was reading our agricultural sector has a desperate Labour shortage that is costing the industry 150m per year in lost productivity.

This incidentally is less than three days profit for Gina Rinehart.

I dont care what anyone says we have a unhealthy and unbalanced economy and these Miners bringing in immigrant Labour at 1/3rd of local rates are clearly taking the piss.


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## ROE (26 May 2012)

In most countries especially in Asia, if you dont work you starve and your family suffer,
it is a previledge for them to have a job and they work hard and hardly complain.

They go where there are jobs and they work hard to keep their job.

I can see why company like to employ these over sea workers..

Here the BHP coal strike, 10% pay raise isnt enough, they want everything.
If they want that sort of condition start their own business, else sooner or later they negotiate themselves out of a job...

There are more willing people working for less

I think Companies making decent profit should employ Aussies worker but sometimes I see these crazy unreasonable union demands you got to feel for the company as well.


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## numbercruncher (26 May 2012)

ROE said:


> In most countries especially in Asia, if you dont work you starve and your family suffer,
> it is a previledge for them to have a job and they work hard and hardly complain.





Anyone who wants to live the Asian dream is welcome to move to Asia - why lower our standards just because less successful nations do this ? So we can make more individuals superwealthy like in Asia 99pc of wealth in hands of 1pc .... Crazy stuff.


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## joea (26 May 2012)

This is not just about mine workers.
Gillard  has a system to relocate and train workers, but I read somewhere lately it has failed to do the job.
There appears to be a split between Bowen and Gillard.
Gillard was not told prior to the decision to import workers, and now the decision cannot be reversed.
It is possible they are importing workers to get the project going etc.
Just remember every time a union goes ahead with  a strike, both the company and the surplus next year loses.

This morning I read in one of the papers a Labor MP was questioned about a Rudd return.
It appears that the MP stated if Rudd was to returned he hoped it would save some Labor seats for their rebuild. He also said that some MP's were scared of  a Rudd win at the next election as they would have to put up with him for 3 years.

On FIFO I have spoken to a few guys in our locality who had businesses and shut them down and joined the FIFO crowd and are loving it. Three I have personally talked to, and both them and their wives are loving it.
One who has a steel welding works, continues to operate it as a one man show in his time off.
Why did they chose to do this? The answers were all the same, They are sick to death of dealing with their workers. No unions pressure involved.

On a mine shut down in Nth Qld.. Some were sacked and the rest deployed to other sites.

So I believe what we see in the media is far from the truth of what is going on in the background.
The business of our economy (Paul Howes outburst) is "fractured" in many, many areas. To top it off the PM refuses to support a FWA inquiry. That is, a report from the group she created.
I think the Labor MP's are having a hard time doing their job under the current PM.
We the voter watch and wait with interest!
joea


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## joea (26 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Anyone who wants to live the Asian dream is welcome to move to Asia - why lower our standards just because less successful nations do this ? So we can make more individuals superwealthy like in Asia 99pc of wealth in hands of 1pc .... Crazy stuff.




Australian are settling in Thialand and other area's and working in the WA gas and oil. FIFO.

Why? Rudd altered the tax system to disallow their tax advantage of offshore jobs.
To explain. if they were getting taxed at 30% then building houses or investing with their gains (in Australia), Rudd decided to take the difference between 30 and 42% as well.

They then said "get stuffed" and went overseas.
Why? They said you cannot get ahead in Australia. The government will not allow you!

Why do uni. graduates head off shore? To get a head!!
This current government is doing untold damage to our economy by their "impulse" decisions.
joea


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## rumpole (26 May 2012)

Ferret said:


> I can't understand why these mining magnates enjoy so much popular support.




I doubt if they do. Most see them as getting fat (literally) from the exploitation of state owned assets and  cheap labour. It doesn't take a lot of brains to dig up rocks and sell them off . I see no problem with the principle of a Federal mining tax in addition to royalties but I  think we the nation are getting too little out of the proposed tax.


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## qldfrog (26 May 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> +1
> 
> There is a near total lack of fair dinkumness about the mining job shortages.




+1
working with BHP who is putting the blame on unions and EA strikes for closing project and mines.
No strikes at the Brisbane offices but employees treated like dirt and slashing numbers /budget like mad; 
The great mining boom is the biggest scam of the time.
But as this is the only hope for the PM to pretend returning to budget balance, let's keep the dream figures on the news.
The mining boom is over and has been for a while. Recession is here, we just have figures lagging by a few months and when the billion $ projects will be officially 'mothballed', that is when the public will become aware..

DIYR but I do not own any BHP, RIO or mining shares anymore (and thankfully seeing the last month or so....)


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## qldfrog (26 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> I doubt if they do. Most see them as getting fat (literally) from the exploitation of state owned assets and  cheap labour. It doesn't take a lot of brains to dig up rocks and sell them off . I see no problem with the principle of a Federal mining tax in addition to royalties but I  think we the nation are getting too little out of the proposed tax.



 let's not forget that the mining tax as it is was custom made with BHP/RIO as part of the plot JG did to overthrow KV.
It is based on profit, how much profit will these miners make [and pay tax on] if they selll to their respective trading RIO/BHP entity overseas..just have a guess
Another scam/feel good scheme destroying the smaller Aussie miners to profit the giants at the expense of every of us
I will end up supporting unions......


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## qldfrog (26 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Good point.  Perhaps employers want people who will just do the job.
> Unlike the workforce at BHP Mitsubishi Alliance who have announced they will not work for a week.
> 
> I'd like to see imported workers take up these jobs.




Julia, have a real talk with someone working for BMA, and you will get a better idea of what is going on


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## MrBurns (26 May 2012)

Gillards only hope of getting Craig Thompson off the front pages is to have a new and exciting stuff up and there is is


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## Calliope (26 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Gillards only hope of getting Craig Thompson off the front pages is to have a new and exciting stuff up and there is is




Yes. Gillard and Swan can't even run their class war properly.



> IMMIGRATION Minister Chris Bowen has infuriated Julia Gillard and the nation's most powerful union leaders after granting Gina Rinehart, the world's richest woman, the right to import 1700 foreign workers for a massive West Australian iron ore project.
> 
> The scathing reaction from the unions over the decision to favour the mining magnate - while the government conducts a class war campaign against mining billionaires and vested interests to sell its "working families" budget - has exposed new divisions in the cabinet amid growing concerns about Julia Gillard's leadership.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...nfuriates-unions/story-e6frg9df-1226367452320


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## Klogg (26 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> A better question is, why the hell should they have the right to make such choices?
> 
> Get rid of welfare and the minimum wage - overnight labour shortages will end (except of course very highly skilled labour such as doctors).
> 
> ...




SCM, I don't usually agree with you, but on this I agree 100%. Very well said.


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## ROE (26 May 2012)

qldfrog said:


> let's not forget that the mining tax as it is was custom made with BHP/RIO as part of the plot JG did to overthrow KV.
> It is based on profit, how much profit will these miners make [and pay tax on] if they selll to their respective trading RIO/BHP entity overseas..just have a guess
> Another scam/feel good scheme destroying the smaller Aussie miners to profit the giants at the expense of every of us
> I will end up supporting unions......




it is a free economy, survival of the fittest, wheeling and dealing is part of the game..
public companies number 1 priority is maximize shareholder return, it doesnt matter if you are a local investors or oversea investors....

lot of aussies invest oversea and we want to maximise return as well, works both ways

you cant demand free market and have communist style laws...

move with the time, it is a global economy if you want to hang on to your ways of doing thing sooner or later you will be out of a job because some one is more willing than you are..

I see it all the time at work, when heavy work load comes around people bitch and moan they have to do extra hours and sometimes weekend work and want more pay, then down turn comes they are the first to go or when they find cheaper workers..

having a job is not a right, you are fortunate to have one, you need to work hard and keep it and stop demanding too much from the employers.

until people wake up to that facts, they are more likely to be without a job when down turn comes or cheaper workers found..


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## young-gun (26 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Good point.  Perhaps employers want people who will just do the job.
> Unlike the workforce at BHP Mitsubishi Alliance who have announced they will not work for a week.
> 
> I'd like to see imported workers take up these jobs.




unions have their pros and cons.


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## rumpole (26 May 2012)

> move with the time, it is a global economy if you want to hang on to your ways of doing thing sooner or later you will be out of a job because some one is more willing than you are..
> 
> I see it all the time at work, when heavy work load comes around people bitch and moan they have to do extra hours and sometimes weekend work and want more pay, then down turn comes they are the first to go or when they find cheaper workers..
> 
> having a job is not a right, you are fortunate to have one, you need to work hard and keep it and stop demanding too much from the employers.




Why not have the same rules for company execs ? The lowest bid wins. I'll run BHP for $150k pa . I know a bloke who would probably do it for $120k but he lives in Burma so he would probably want FIFO expenses as well. 

Alternatively, don't pay execs a salary at all, but make their payments linked to dividends paid to shareholders.


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## jet328 (26 May 2012)

Its amazing how peoples perceptions differ between industries.

If you look at some male dominated, above average paying jobs eg. mining, automotive. The consensus view is we should be protecting these jobs for Australians eg. tariffs, government funding, no foreign workers.

You then look at an industry like retail, female dominated with below average, if not just about minimum wages. The consensus view here is no GST on overseas purchases and competition is good for the consumer at whatever cost.

When Borders closed down did anyone care about their jobs? Yet when toyota sacks a percentage of their workers after receiving huge amounts of taxpayer money we get an 8 page feature in the Herald Sun for the next 3 days...


A $500 product. The Australian retailer employs Australian staff, rents a premises in Australia and all the services that goes with running a business (rates, electricity, accounting etc) and their reward for using Australian services is they have to charge their customers an extra 10% compared to their overseas competitor along with all that goes with GST compliance.
Its basically an anti-tariff.
Reverse the situation and just imagine this ever happening the automotive industry...

Australia needs to stop playing favourites with certain unionised industries. If competition is good for retail, its good for mining and cars. If protectionism is good, its good for plenty of other industries too...


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## numbercruncher (26 May 2012)

Im coming to the conclusion that is Australia is going to get what it deserves, create a welfare state, sell our companies, give away our jobs, borrow more than we make , neglect all our industries frozen by the high AUD etc - we will all soon enough reap the harvest of the seeds weve sown ..... But we will produce afew dozen Billionaires- yipee go us ....


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## breaker (26 May 2012)

Klogg said:


> SCM, I don't usually agree with you, but on this I agree 100%. Very well said.




yeah I agree cant believe who it came from


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## breaker (26 May 2012)

ROE said:


> it is a free economy, survival of the fittest, wheeling and dealing is part of the game..
> public companies number 1 priority is maximize shareholder return, it doesnt matter if you are a local investors or oversea investors....
> 
> lot of aussies invest oversea and we want to maximise return as well, works both ways
> ...




also true the bloke who does a little extra will keep his job


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## StumpyPhantom (26 May 2012)

This "jobs board" will surely be seen as another Gillard ****-up, ranking alongside the Citizens Assembly that nobody heard of until it came from her mouth during the 2010 election.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/as...-foreign-workers/story-e6frf7jo-1226367783198 )"

*"Speaking today in Melbourne, Ms Gillard attempted to douse the flames, saying that a "jobs board'' would be created that would give Australian workers information about what jobs were available in the resources sector"*

Anyone really concerned about "importing migrant workers" only need to briefly read the way an Enterprise Migration Agreement is struck up from the official Department of Immigration website.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/48a-enterprise.htm

It already makes provision for Australian skills retention and improvement:

*"To be approved for an EMA, projects will need to develop a comprehensive training plan, demonstrating how the project will invest in the up-skilling of Australians to meet future skill needs in the resources sector.  This plan will need to set measurable targets for training that develops skills in occupations where there are known or anticipated shortages. "*

And given the below, it just makes Gillard's 'jobs board' announcement an ill-conceived, panicky, unworkable proposition just to show she is in charge and that she continues to hate mining billionaires (Packers, and Lowys are OK):

*"Under an EMA, occupations that are not eligible for standard migration programs can be sponsored, provided the project can justify a genuine need that cannot be met from the Australian labour market. This will be critical for resources projects, particularly during the construction phase."*


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## Glen48 (26 May 2012)

From what I have seen all the jobs are for Uni Grads such as geological, hydrologist mining engineers etc so if the experts can find those with degrees 
from over seas good for them but if they want tradies and general workers from over seas then they are up to something.


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## Eager (26 May 2012)

Julia said:


> I'd like to see imported workers take up these jobs.



That was noted in the press todasy.

Why are our skilled migrants lobbing in our capital cities where the unemployment rate is growing?

Send 'em to the "salt mines."


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## Julia (26 May 2012)

ROE said:


> it is a free economy, survival of the fittest, wheeling and dealing is part of the game..
> public companies number 1 priority is maximize shareholder return, it doesnt matter if you are a local investors or oversea investors....
> 
> lot of aussies invest oversea and we want to maximise return as well, works both ways
> ...






jet328 said:


> Its amazing how peoples perceptions differ between industries.
> 
> If you look at some male dominated, above average paying jobs eg. mining, automotive. The consensus view is we should be protecting these jobs for Australians eg. tariffs, government funding, no foreign workers.
> 
> ...



ROE and Jet:  great posts.



StumpyPhantom said:


> This "jobs board" will surely be seen as another Gillard ****-up, ranking alongside the Citizens Assembly that nobody heard of until it came from her mouth during the 2010 election.



I can't believe this.  It will go the way of "Grocery Watch" and "Petrol Watch".
She must truly think the average Australian is utterly stupid.


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## tigerboi (26 May 2012)

*Re: GINA RINEHART: I WANT MY SCAB OVERSEAS LABOUR FCK AUSSIE WORKERS*

so we havent got 1700 skilled workers for the mines? who believes that? these jobs are for skilled workers not long term layabouts so its all bs about people not wanting these jobs.

its got nothing to do with skills or shortage as the imported workers DONT have the skills required & we dont have a shortage of skilled workers to take the jobs.

why would you import unskilled workers that you supposedly have to train??

so you can pay them scab wages... no secret there.

rinehart IS WORTH $29B & WANTS TO IMPORT SCAB LABOUR,just have a think about
the greed this woman is showing the country.

watching closely to see the unions sell out workers once again.


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## StumpyPhantom (26 May 2012)

*Re: GINA RINEHART: I WANT MY SCAB OVERSEAS LABOUR FCK AUSSIE WORKERS*



tigerboi said:


> so we havent got 1700 skilled workers for the mines? who believes that? these jobs are for skilled workers not long term layabouts so its all bs about people not wanting these jobs.
> 
> its got nothing to do with skills or shortage as the imported workers DONT have the skills required & we dont have a shortage of skilled workers to take the jobs.
> 
> ...




Tigerboi - all I can suggest is that you read the link I copied above.  Here it is again:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sh...enterprise.htm

I've copied it below just to make sure you hone in on it:

*What protections are in place to ensure overseas workers are not exploited?*

*Overseas workers sponsored under an EMA will hold 457 visas and will be subject to the Worker Protection Act 2009.

Direct employers will need to comply with sponsorship obligations, including paying Australian market salary rates. This means overseas workers cannot be used to undercut Australian working conditions. 

Employers who do not comply with sponsorship obligations will be subject to sanctions such as a bar on sponsoring further overseas workers or termination of the labour agreement.

Where there is evidence of widespread abuse, contractual sanctions in an EMA will allow the department to suspend or cancel an EMA (and associated agreements). 

Overseas workers will need to demonstrate English language proficiency and the skills and experience necessary to perform the occupation in Australia. Relevant licensing or registration requirements will also apply.*


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## tigerboi (26 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*

yeah i honed in on a gubmint website "we pay the same" dribble.

like i said someone anyone i challenge you show me how we cant fill a lousy 1700 

skilled jobs......

you must work for the guvment to believe that sort of stuff.

like i said ask yourself this & hone in ok

do we not have 1700 skilled workers to take these jobs?

wake up there is no shortage...

so why dont all of us here post the skills needed to do the preferred job

in THE MINES


tigerboi......roadtrain/b double licence,forklift licence

my skills are worth $180,000 to $220,000 a year 


its a load of bull.

when the deals are done its ok you can use your workers dont worry

the guvment will allow it.

tb


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## medicowallet (26 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*



tigerboi said:


> tigerboi......roadtrain/b double licence,forklift licence
> 
> my skills are worth $180,000 to $220,000 a year
> 
> ...




Yah, been happening for years in the hospitals, with overseas trained doctors coming over here, resulting in many very highly skilled practitioners being paid considerably less than $220k per year, for extremely stressful work.

I fail to see how a truck driver in the mine in the remote community should be paid more than their hospital doctor in the same town, but then again, I do tend to value the 12 years of training required.

Bring it on, bring pays to reasonable levels, limit inflation for ordinary "working families" and stop the rot of the mining extortion in the off chance the boom declines and mass closures of mines because of higher wages happens.

MW


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## ROE (26 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> Why not have the same rules for company execs ? The lowest bid wins. I'll run BHP for $150k pa . I know a bloke who would probably do it for $120k but he lives in Burma so he would probably want FIFO expenses as well.
> 
> Alternatively, don't pay execs a salary at all, but make their payments linked to dividends paid to shareholders.




again you free to do so if you control the companies you decide how much you pay for CEO... try it with 150K etc...

you can also apply for ceo jobs and asking for 150k instead of paying millions for these other guys.

Warren Buffet does that and I am sure he doent pay 150k for a good CEO of his business.
but hey everyone is free to do so.


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## ROE (26 May 2012)

jet328 said:


> Its amazing how peoples perceptions differ between industries.
> 
> If you look at some male dominated, above average paying jobs eg. mining, automotive. The consensus view is we should be protecting these jobs for Australians eg. tariffs, government funding, no foreign workers.
> 
> ...




great post...we love our bargain and cheap goods and label our retail here is a ripped off 
and willing to give our money to ovesea market and kill local retail jobs

yet a 6 figure mining job, oh no we cant have some oversea guy doing it for 50k etc...

just to show they are not fair dinkum but only protecting their vest interest..

IT jobs get outsource all the time to cheaper market, these guys dont get the protection why should anyone else...


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## tigerboi (26 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*



medicowallet said:


> Yah, been happening for years in the hospitals, with overseas trained doctors coming over here, resulting in many very highly skilled practitioners being paid considerably less than $220k per year, for extremely stressful work.
> 
> I fail to see how a truck driver in the mine in the remote community should be paid more than their hospital doctor in the same town, but then again, I do tend to value the 12 years of training required.
> 
> ...




fail to see? how long do you think it takes to learn to be a roadtrain driver? just as long as it takes to train a doctor.

how many OVERSEAS trained roadtrain drivers do you reckon we import?

why shouldnt we get first choice of jobs in our own country.


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## ROE (26 May 2012)

breaker said:


> also true the bloke who does a little extra will keep his job




in my working life I have yet to see someone got the sack who work hard, reliable and put in the extra yard when required of them.

I seen plenty of smart people with attitudes and demanding tone get the chopped all the time....


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 May 2012)

*Gillard prefers foreigners to Australian workers*

The Gillard government has approved the recruitment of over 1700 foreign workers when Australian workers are looking for jobs in the mines.

I do not believe it.

What is her and her government's plan for Australia?

How can we grow our nation when this government spends without accountability, and outsources work to foreigners that can be performed by Australians.

We need to make money as a population before we can splurge it away.

This is unconscionable.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nfuriates-unions/story-fn59niix-1226367702108

gg


----------



## rumpole (27 May 2012)

*Re: Gillard prefers foreigners to Australian workers*

It's a pity it had to be done.

 So why did they do it ?

 Probably because they had to.

 It's certainly an anti-Labor act so we have to assume that there were not enough Australians around prepared to do the jobs required. If they generate 6000 more highly paid local jobs to support the 1700 imports that's a good deal in my book.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (27 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*



tigerboi said:


> yeah i honed in on a gubmint website "we pay the same" dribble.
> 
> like i said someone anyone i challenge you show me how we cant fill a lousy 1700
> 
> ...




I had my doubts, Tigerboi, whether the presentation of facts was going to persuade you of anything.

But this will be my last try:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...next-three-years/story-e6frg9df-1226366861946

*"Under its EMA, Roy Hill can import up to 1715 workers over the next three years, out of a total estimated construction workforce of 8473."*

So there you go, forget about filling the lousy 1715.  Have a go at filling 8473 jobs.

And no - I don't work for the guvment, gubmint or government.


----------



## johenmo (27 May 2012)

ROE said:


> in my working life I have yet to see someone got the sack who work hard, reliable and put in the extra yard when required of them.
> 
> I seen plenty of smart people with attitudes and demanding tone get the chopped all the time....




I have closed sites which had reliable, hard working people.  Because we couldn't compete with imports.  There is no such thing as a permanent job nowadays (if there ever was).

I personally know lots of people incl relatives who FIFO.  The "lower end" of the scale in mining are earning 2 - 3x what they did.  Why wouldn't you go for that, esp. if young.

As for the earlier post quoting Overseas workers sponsored under an EMA will hold 457 visas and will be subject to the Worker Protection Act 2009.

Direct employers will need to comply with sponsorship obligations, including paying Australian market salary rates. This means overseas workers cannot be used to undercut Australian working conditions. 

Employers who do not comply with sponsorship obligations will be subject to sanctions such as a bar on sponsoring further overseas workers or termination of the labour agreement. - perhaps things have changed of late but as I posted earlier, it was 1 year ago that the 457 workers got 1/3 of the wage at a mine.  So it did/does happen.

Unions are necessary.  Anyone who thinks they aren't needs to work for an abusive employer.  The hard part is getting the balance right, for unions shouldn't run companies.  Despite trying to.


----------



## rumpole (27 May 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Our nation has become soft.
> 
> If we cannot do the work, we need to encourage fit working migrants to bolster our slack workers.
> 
> ...




GG

Your contribution above seems at odds with your outraged protestations against the import of 1,700 foreign workers  quoted below. (Originally in the "Gillard prefers foreigners to Australian Workers" thread start by yourself.)

Can you explain the discrepancy between these posts and where you stand on imports of foreign workers ?

Good under the Libs , bad under Labor ?



> The Gillard government has approved the recruitment of over 1700 foreign workers when Australian workers are looking for jobs in the mines.
> 
> I do not believe it.
> 
> ...


----------



## numbercruncher (27 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> GG
> 
> Your contribution above seems at odds with your outraged protestations against the import of 1,700 foreign workers  quoted below. (Originally in the "Gillard prefers foreigners to Australian Workers" thread start by yourself.)
> 
> ...





Ha - I noticed that as well and just assumed two different people were posting from the same account 

Or he had a change of heart perhaps


----------



## numbercruncher (27 May 2012)

This is out of control though -

1700 Foreign Workers when they can definately fill most those positions from within Oz - Guess Gina Rineharts 50mil a day profit isnt good enough.

We should all apply for one of these jobs just to test the Labor parties pledge that they wont let Foreigners take jobs over Locals !

As a swinging voter this could be the single biggest issue that determines that I vote against Labor .....


----------



## MrBurns (27 May 2012)

A manager at Maccas gets $120k pa
A welder gets $300k pa

I don't know why we all aren't over there


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## MrBurns (27 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Ha - I noticed that as well and just assumed two different people were posting from the same account
> 
> Or he had a change of heart perhaps




There is a difference between pre drinks and after drinks


----------



## rumpole (27 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> There is a difference between pre drinks and after drinks


----------



## Junior (27 May 2012)




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## Glen48 (27 May 2012)

Mr B for a welder to get300K he/she would have to be well trained in specialist welding such was under water on an oil rig.
There are not many jobs going for welders at present a lot for mystery shoppers though.


----------



## medicowallet (27 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*



tigerboi said:


> fail to see? how long do you think it takes to learn to be a roadtrain driver? just as long as it takes to train a doctor.
> 
> how many OVERSEAS trained roadtrain drivers do you reckon we import?
> 
> why shouldnt we get first choice of jobs in our own country.




1. We are talking apples and prunes.  I understand that driving roadtrains is specialised and that it is dangerous, but to compare it to working in a hospital, and the training required etc is delusional.  I bet that with appropriate motivation and opportunity (which I believe is limited wrt training) roadtrain qualifications at current levels would be more achievable to most than medical practitioner training. 

2. No idea how many overseas trained roadtrained drivers we import, please let me know.  Also, if it is few, then why would it be unacceptable for overseas trained roadtrain drivers to perform very similar work in Australia, because in many industries (including medical practice) overseas trained workers perform just as well or better than locally trained.

3. We should get first preference, but when the balance of supply and demand becomes crazy, as it clearly is in the trade industry at the moment, then we should import qualified workers to return the balance to normal.

btw with respect to point 3, I am in a profession where my pay is drastically affected by overseas, imported doctors, and I am quite happy to be paid half of what I could achieve if there were even worse shortages than there are currently, but I will not piss and moan about this to protect extortionate demands on consumers/patients.  Nope, I accept that this is best for the country, and I am still happy to make a decent living for my work (fwiw I don't work atm, but this applied to the not too distant past)

Protecting the mining industry by having reasonable wages is much preferable than losing expansion and competitiveness to asian, african and south american countries as we become less competitive.

MW


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## noco (27 May 2012)

Instead of Paul Howes spitting the dummy, why doesn't get off his soap box and find out why we are impoting Migrant Workers.
As a union leader, one would have thought he would do some homework first and come up with an answer to tell Gillard how many skilled workers he can find to work in the West.


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## Calliope (27 May 2012)

johenmo said:


> Unions are necessary.  Anyone who thinks they aren't needs to work for an abusive employer.  The hard part is getting the balance right, for unions shouldn't run companies.  Despite trying to.




So they shouldn't run companies? Well they *do run* companies courtesy of FWA. And they *run the country* courtesy of Gillard, Shorten, Combet, Cameron etc. Not bad going when you consider unions represent only 18% of the workforce.

And Paul Howes has made it plain that the breakdown of the class war in Gina Rinehart's favour has him gob-smacked. He thought she is the enemy. Fortunately Bowen, Ferguson and Gary Gray think otherwise.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (27 May 2012)

*Re: Gillard prefers foreigners to Australian workers*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> What is her and her government's plan for Australia?




Australians are over-indebted, therefore they now must import immigrants to take on more debt to prop up their housing bubble.


----------



## joea (27 May 2012)

johenmo said:


> Unions are necessary.  Anyone who thinks they aren't needs to work for an abusive employer.  The hard part is getting the balance right, for unions shouldn't run companies.  Despite trying to.




That just about sums it up. However we have to Industrial Relation Commissioners to enforce the rules. Just like police who prevent speeding.
Just note where some of the Union leaders in politics come from.
joea


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 May 2012)

I would have preferred if some attempt had been made to relocate workers recently laid off in  Victoria and South Australia in to these jobs in WA.

This is what a government should do instead of throwing money at welfare. 

People want jobs, not handouts.

When the government is in the job of importing workers against union members wishes it will end in tears.

gg


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## moXJO (27 May 2012)

noco said:


> Instead of Paul Howes spitting the dummy, why doesn't get off his soap box and find out why we are impoting Migrant Workers.
> As a union leader, one would have thought he would do some homework first and come up with an answer to tell Gillard how many skilled workers he can find to work in the West.




Trying to find training in this country to up skill (blue collar) is ridiculous I tried ringing the new trades centre a while back to get details and simply received a message that no one was there. I called over and over with no one answering. On a separate occasion called a tafe to find out about plumbers training options and was told you can't do it unless you are an apprentice except in special cases like the refugee that was doing the course. So it became more and more of a headache and I scrapped the idea of up skilling members of the crew in those areas. Training people needs to be looked at as you get five different answers from various departments.

 I know plenty of people trying to get in the mines and can't find a job. Agree that unions are needed as well.


----------



## noco (27 May 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I would have preferred if some attempt had been made to relocate workers recently laid off in  Victoria and South Australia in to these jobs in WA.
> 
> This is what a government should do instead of throwing money at welfare.
> 
> ...




Of those workers who lost their jobs recently in Vic and SA, has any of the unions or government bureaucrats set up a survey to find out :-

a) how many would be prepared to relocate to the Pilburra.
b) how many unskilled workers are over 40.
c) how many of those sacked workers who are in an advanced age of life would be prepared to take courses in plumbing, electrical, boiler makers, fitters and turners, maintainance fitters, diesal mechanics.

To obtain the skills that are being sort would take 3 or 4 years. Can Rhienhartt wait that long? She, like other mining companies are struggling to find these skilled workers. So the  unions should not complain without doing some research first.

The other thing that bugs me about the unions is when a company is doing well with good profits the unions scream blue murder "we are entitled to some of those profits as the minerals in the ground belong to us".

How often do you hear the unions say when a company is struggling and ready to go out the back door, "we the unions will help you by getting our members to work an extra 8 hours a week or take a reduced wage". Not on your bloody life. So will sombody tell the unions to stop whinging.


----------



## rumpole (27 May 2012)

> How often do you hear the unions say when a company is struggling and ready to go out the back door, "we the unions will help you by getting our members to work an extra 8 hours a week or take a reduced wage". Not on your bloody life. So will sombody tell the unions to stop whinging




I'm sure unionists have at some workplaces taken pay cuts or reduced hours or overtime reductions in order to help out in slack times. It would help  if executives and middle management set an example by taking pay cuts in the first place. I'm sure this has happened on occasions as well.


----------



## Glen48 (27 May 2012)

If China and India are tanking and stock piling ore  who is going to buy Gina's ore?.

I am sure with a bit of help any one can be trained do the basic job in  a mine in a short time even welding or working as a TA with a tradie as an apprentice.

 There are no road trains on mine sites other than fuel tankers, road trains in OZ transport cattle.


----------



## qldfrog (27 May 2012)

ROE said:


> IT jobs get outsource all the time to cheaper market, these guys dont get the protection why should anyone else...



I am in It so I know competition: I am supposed to be competitive against indian companies paying no tax (5 to ten y tax free on creation)  and in places where 50k$ a year job allows you a driver and housemaid, but I am here and have to pay $100 an hour for a plumber.
be competitive yeahh right..
I would like people to realise that currently, mining jobs are decreasing, if you were even trying to find the facts, you will discover that there are plenty of hopeful who are getting mining tickets  and training as we speak for no result;
There is no job boom in mining anymore; as for the 6 figures salaries, they are for people with 15y experience who do not need training and can be poached from the next door mine, but if you prefer to believe JG and Swan, or Gina ; and Thomson is a saint..
Incredible


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## noco (27 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> I'm sure unionists have at some workplaces taken pay cuts or reduced hours or overtime reductions in order to help out in slack times. It would help  if executives and middle management set an example by taking pay cuts in the first place. I'm sure this has happened on occasions as well.




You say you are sure!!!!!! Yeah,yeah!!!! Please give me a link dear rumpole. Please give me a link for I am all ears.

If you have ever been an exective or middle managment you would understand how many of these people work a lot more than 36 hours per week. Many are paid on results and not by the hour. From one who knows ONLY TOO WELL.


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## rumpole (27 May 2012)

noco said:


> You say you are sure!!!!!! Yeah,yeah!!!! Please give me a link dear rumpole. Please give me a link for I am all ears.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/pay-cuts-unpaid-leave-ease-bottom-lines-20090715-dljl.html

I'm sure you could find more if you tried


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## noco (27 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/national/pay-cuts-unpaid-leave-ease-bottom-lines-20090715-dljl.html
> 
> I'm sure you could find more if you tried




rumpole, that was a private arrangement between emlpoyer and employee and nothing to do with the unions.

Were those employees members of a union? I doubt it.

Please show me where the unions had insitgated any such arrangement.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 May 2012)

Advertise in all major newspapers offering apprenticeships (where required) or other required training and I'd be highly surprised if the mining companies didn't get absolutely flooded with applicants.

There are enough recent ex manufacturing or timber industry workers in Tasmania alone who could do those jobs. Obviously not all of them would want to move to WA, but no doubt some of them would. Now look at the other 98% of the country's population and I'm sure they'd be able to find 1700 pretty easily.

I am not against mining but this is getting beyond a joke. Mostly foreign equipment is being used, even right down to things like steelwork (meanwhile the two local steel works we have, in SA and especially the one in NSW that has already cut staff etc, are struggling to stay in business). Now they even want to use foreign workers as well.

What benefits, exactly, is Australia getting out of this game? The impact on the AUD is killing off entire industries across the country which is an obvious loss. But if they're going to import workers for the mines then what, exactly, is the upside?

It's not like the 1950's when we imported huge numbers of workers to help build infrastructure (especially the Snowy and Tasmanian hydro systems). That provided a lasting benefit - there's no reason why the turbines at Tumut (NSW) and Tungatinah (Tas) shouldn't still be churning out electricity a century from now - long after the mining boom will have been forgotten.

In contrast, mining as it operates today seems to be of real benefit to very, very few Australians once all the costs of lost jobs elsewhere are considered. And that's without even mentioning the environmental impact it must surely be having....


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## rumpole (27 May 2012)

noco said:


> rumpole, that was a private arrangement between emlpoyer and employee and nothing to do with the unions.




Assumption without evidence


> Were those employees members of a union? I doubt it.



Another assumption without evidence



> Please show me where the unions had insitgated any such arrangement.




I doubt if unions are going to INSTIGATE pay cuts for their members, but responsible ones would negotiate, and if it was a matter of pay cuts versus sackings then they should communicate that fact to their members and let them decide.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 May 2012)

noco said:


> Of those workers who lost their jobs recently in Vic and SA, has any of the unions or government bureaucrats set up a survey to find out :-
> 
> a) how many would be prepared to relocate to the Pilburra.
> b) how many unskilled workers are over 40.
> ...




Well said noco.

Instead of Gillard and the unions importing workers from overseas, they should see how many of the laid off workers could be reskilled and employed in WA and Queensland.

gg


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## johenmo (27 May 2012)

noco said:


> Please show me where the unions had insitgated any such arrangement.




I can't recall any - but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.  But I'm not confident of it having happened, particularly after my experience with unions in A&NZ.  I recall the 1990 SPC deal, which the unions opposed & a compromise was reached after going to the Industrial Relations Tribunal.  But it was company instigated because the banks wouldn't lend any more money.


----------



## numbercruncher (27 May 2012)

*Re: Gillard prefers foreigners to Australian workers*



Starcraftmazter said:


> Australians are over-indebted, therefore they now must import immigrants to take on more debt to prop up their housing bubble.




So you pay them 1/3rd the going rate so they can catch houses at 1/3rd last sales prices - sounds close to fair value actually ....


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 May 2012)

One thing I know for sure is that the perception of a mining boom (whether true or not) in WA is putting huge pressure on employers in other states.

For anyone who employes tradesmen, the story is the same. The boss hears the stories of huge pay on offer "in the mines" and the workers are quick to repeat it word for word. The end result is that it has substantially tipped the balance toward higher pay (but not necessarily better conditions) even at the other end of the country. This whole "mining boom" thing is costing business a fortune.

One big problem is that workers don't see the downsides. FIFO you end up spending half of your time either working or otherwise "at work" and with that comes big money. But do the same hours and similar work for any non-mining employer on an hourly rate and you'll make just as much money if not more and you still get to go home at night. The trouble is that most don't see it that way and that's where the trouble arises for business.

All this talk of a mining boom and skills shortages isn't helping anyone really. It's not helping workers who go to WA with false hopes. It's not helping the workers generally when it opens the door to all these foreign workers at at time of increasing unemployment in many areas. It's not helping business in other states who end up paying higher wages in order to compete with perceived "easy money" on offer in WA.


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## Julia (27 May 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I would have preferred if some attempt had been made to relocate workers recently laid off in  Victoria and South Australia in to these jobs in WA.
> 
> This is what a government should do instead of throwing money at welfare.



What evidence is there that those laid off in Victoria and SA would be prepared to relocate?
Sounds ideal, of course, but the reality is often quite different.



> People want jobs, not handouts.



I haven't noticed too many rejecting handouts.




rumpole said:


> I'm sure unionists have at some workplaces taken pay cuts or reduced hours or overtime reductions in order to help out in slack times.



Really?  I look forward to your links to demonstrate this.


----------



## numbercruncher (27 May 2012)

Julia said:


> I haven't noticed too many rejecting handouts.




Nope millions of them every week ....



> From tomorrow and over the coming weeks 3.2 million Australian pensioners will*receive more money in their bank accounts to help them make ends meet.




http://www.pm.gov.au/press-office/extra-cash-pensioners

If we give away jobs by the thousands to temporary foreign workers we wont be able to afford pensioners any longer .....


----------



## todster (27 May 2012)

Lets just hope they can maintain safety levels of union jobs and not kill to many workers.
That's what frightens me.


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## sptrawler (27 May 2012)

The whole skills shortage is a scam to get imported workers in and put a lid on wages. If Liberal was in and came up with this crap, Labor and the unions would bring the country to a standstill.IMO
This is probably the biggest threat to our kids future and only labor could get away with it. Also probably will do as a parting gesture before being flung out of office.


----------



## tigerboi (28 May 2012)

Glen48 said:


> There are no road trains on mine sites other than fuel tankers, road trains in OZ transport cattle.







dont know what your talking about 

here is a set of triple side tippers that run out of the mines...also used by atlas iron.

you wont be seeing any 457 workers doing this job.


----------



## joea (28 May 2012)

And it goes on and on.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ver-rinehart-workers-deal-20120527-1zd7a.html

joea


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## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

Go to Rineharts royhill webpage where thousands of foreigners will get jobs ....

http://www.royhill.com.au/employment.html

I cant see any jobs available ? maybe Australian ip addresses blocked when you search ? might have to be a resident of another lower paying country to access them ? 

I think a fine system should be introduced - every foreign workers who takes a job and it can be proved that a Local was available and not employed - $ 1 mil fine per offence


----------



## moXJO (28 May 2012)

> The Bureau of Statistics says in the past financial year a net 6163 Australians have crossed the Nullarbor to live in Western Australia. That's a trickle of just 18 Australians per day - slap bang in the middle of the biggest mining boom in a century.
> 
> By contrast, a net 30,800 overseas migrants streamed into Western Australia - 84 per day. The new workers servicing Western Australia's mining boom overwhelmingly come from overseas, not because Australians cannot move to Western Australia (there are no legal restrictions on movement between states) but because they won't.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...e-nullarbor-20120527-1zd7c.html#ixzz1w6lANZeN




Seems it's nothing new


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

More proof this is a scam to make fat cats fatter ....



> ALMOST 14,000 jobseekers filed into the Australian Mines and Metals Association's jobs expo in Perth on Friday and Saturday. But the employer granted unprecedented access to foreign workers, under Australia's first Enterprise Migration Agreement, was not there to greet them.






> But Programmed managing director Chris Sutherland, whose company has a major labour-hire arm, said the massive turnout was a clear sign "there are lots of people looking to get work in the resources industry





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/jobseekers-left-in-dark/story-fn59noo3-1226368702137


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## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> More proof this is a scam to make fat cats fatter ....
> [/URL]




Could well be in which case the Gillard Govt has once again proven itself to be not only useless but destructive.

Rinehart only does what she's allowed to do under the law and in this case with the Govt's explicit assistance, the same Govt that drones on and on about helping working families........well not Australian working families obviously.


----------



## joea (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> I cant see any jobs available ? maybe Australian ip addresses blocked when you search ? might have to be a resident of another lower paying country to access them ?




Well my son was at Ranger mine some years back in the electrical area.
He basically said that workers from down southern Australia were screened, and then employed.
70% of them lasted 2 to 3 days and left because they could not handle the heat.

His group comprised of 17 when he started. They got rid of the bludgers over 3 to 6 months, and then continued with about 8 guys prepared to work. Their productivity improved considerably in the small group. They completed all the work under budget time and price.

So all the bulls**t in the media about 14000 workers from south trying to get into the resource sector will be another trying time for the employment personnel.
Actually it sounds if Gillard wrote the "script".
No doubt all the big companies in WA and NT are aware of this.

My son is currently commissioning the Woodside project off Karratha. On this project 
60 % of the personnel originally destined to commission, rejected the on site job and took up jobs in South Korea, etc, because they did not want to work FIFO.

There are always two sides to every story. Some people live in the world of reality, and others in some other world with the Government and the unions.
joea


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## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

Hello Joea -


What you just wrote confused the crap out of me.


I think what you are saying is that we shouldnt give Australians jobs in Australia because a handful of your Sons Work colleagues didnt like working in a mine in the NT ? 

And you dont believe there was 14000 people at this Job expo in Perth ? you think they were paid actors perhaps ?

Like you said some people live in the world of reality and others ....


----------



## joea (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Hello Joea -
> 
> 
> What you just wrote confused the crap out of me.
> ...




No I mean a big % of those 14,000 will not make it in the hot conditions of WA and NT.
My son and some guys who wanted to work, completed the work with half the numbers that  were there.
I can ensure you that anybody who does not want to work, and/or cannot handle 40 degrees C, should not apply.
I am all for Australian workers getting the jobs, but they will be contracted to work, not talk.

Some where in the media today  there is an article that Australian's waste 25% of their days work.
Those people will not last in mining jobs.
I have come back to edit! I must also say there not many Australians who will not work, if they are are managed correctly and treated fairly.i.e. pay and conditions etc.
joea


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## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

joea said:


> I am all for Australian worker getting the jobs, but they will be contracted to work, not talk.
> joea




What sort of work are you talking about, specifically.


----------



## joea (28 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> What sort of work are you talking about, specifically.




Engineering, electrical, maintenance. Anything that is not sheer production.
In the hot conditions the workforce is supplied with electrolyte base drinking water.
Sqwincher is one product. This is required to keep them going. Basic water will not do the job. No doubt the personnel are given a period of time to adapt to the climate.

With production and control room workers you will find that they will keep the place going efficiently. Air conditioned areas such as trucks, tractors etc, it is easier, but these type of jobs are contested.
There "Is no such thing as a bad soldier, only bad Lieutenants".
If the IR people do their job, there should be minor problems only.
joea


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

joea said:


> Engineering, electrical, maintenance. Anything that is not sheer production.
> In the hot conditions the workforce is supplied with electrolyte base drinking water.
> Sqwincher is one product. This is required to keep them going. Basic water will not do they job. No doubt the personnel are given a period of time to adapt to the climate.
> 
> ...




And the imported workers will cope better ?


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> And the imported workers will cope better ?





Thats the bit I really dont get - Ive worked overseas a fair bit and found Aussies on average harder workers than others but seems Joea and others dissagree so Vehemently that they advocate the importation of Thousands of foreign workers ..... maybe once their own jobs get outsourced theyll see different ?


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Thats the bit I really dont get - Ive worked overseas a fair bit and found Aussies on average harder workers than others but seems Joea and others dissagree so Vehemently that they advocate the importation of Thousands of foreign workers ..... maybe once their own jobs get outsourced theyll see different ?




Seems to be more about cheap outsourcing than genuine need then.

Anyone capable of the work who refuses should lose all their handouts, but thats too hard to determne for a Govt that cant get anything right.


----------



## joea (28 May 2012)

I will put my money on less than 25% of the 14,000 will take up jobs FIFO in the mining sector.
Nowhere did I say Australian will not or cannot work. I said if they did not want to work, do not apply and do not waste other peoples time and money.
Over and out.
joea


----------



## Glen48 (28 May 2012)

The other problem if they import o/seas workers is will they elope and then the feds need to spend $$$ finding them.
Stand corrected Tigerboi how far do R/trains travel seem inefficient to me.


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## jank (28 May 2012)

Hand up here anyone who as actually been on a 457 visa? I dont think there has been anyone. As someone who has I can tell you that although there are many people out there who want to work, they want to work on their own terms. Do you think your average bogan out in Western Sydney will actually step up to the plate and work as FIFO on a 4/2 cycle? Also, your average person is not trained in these skills.
If you want to blame someone, blame the economic boom where everyone became a personal trainer, retail manager or real estate agent. I have no idea about training schemes here which can turn someone into a skilled mining engineer but that is where the problem lies, I think.
Anyway, they have to pay market rates anyway, I know I was. The mining execs cant wait 4-5 years until they have enough people with the right skills to complete a mining project. Something similar is happening now in Christchurch where there are thousands of foreign workers streaming into the city to start the rebuilding of the city. Kiwi media complaining of course that locals should be given preference for work but the is BS imo. Most unemployed kiwis or Aussies will not get themselves trained up for the job or have the right attitude. If Australia was in the middle of recession things would be different. Give it another 24 months, we will see a change then.


----------



## Glen48 (28 May 2012)

As of to day there are no jobs going for fitters or welders in Port Headland or Roy Hill Gina;s site.
A trade one would assume would be in demand at a construction site or for general maintenance.


----------



## moXJO (28 May 2012)

Come here by boat and the unions love you. Come here to work and they scream bloody murder


----------



## Knobby22 (28 May 2012)

moXJO said:


> Come here by boat and the unions love you. Come here to work and they scream bloody murder




No, Unions are anti-immigration as it creates labour competition. Labor governments have always had a lower immigration rate than Liberal governments for that reason.

For instance the White Australia policy was set up by Labour to kick out the Chinese labourers. It was the Liberal governments of Menzies and Holt that ended it.


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

jank said:


> Hand up here anyone who as actually been on a 457 visa? I dont think there has been anyone. As someone who has I can tell you that although there are many people out there who want to work, they want to work on their own terms. Do you think your average bogan out in Western Sydney will actually step up to the plate and work as FIFO on a 4/2 cycle? Also, your average person is not trained in these skills.
> If you want to blame someone, blame the economic boom where everyone became a personal trainer, retail manager or real estate agent. I have no idea about training schemes here which can turn someone into a skilled mining engineer but that is where the problem lies, I think.
> Anyway, they have to pay market rates anyway, I know I was. The mining execs cant wait 4-5 years until they have enough people with the right skills to complete a mining project. Something similar is happening now in Christchurch where there are thousands of foreign workers streaming into the city to start the rebuilding of the city. Kiwi media complaining of course that locals should be given preference for work but the is BS imo. Most unemployed kiwis or Aussies will not get themselves trained up for the job or have the right attitude. If Australia was in the middle of recession things would be different. Give it another 24 months, we will see a change then.




Are you a POM ?

Ha how does being on a 457 all of a sudden qualify you to be an expert of Australian workers ? You use things like Bogan from Western Sydney to support your flawed argument ..... 

You said ...

"Most unemployed kiwis or Aussies will not get themselves trained up for the job or have the right attitude"

That comment borders on racism - certainly biggoted, does nothing to encourage Australians to accept immigrants like yourself .... Im constantly reading about huge numbers of people becoming unemployed or stepped down to part time and Im sure they are keen as mustard to work ....

One point your right about is that we cant make skilled Mining Engineers overnight - but I didnt see anything about the Rinehart 1700 imports all being skilled mining Engineers ...


----------



## moXJO (28 May 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> No, Unions are anti-immigration as it creates labour competition. Labor governments have always had a lower immigration rate than Liberal governments for that reason.
> 
> For instance the White Australia policy was set up by Labour to kick out the Chinese labourers. It was the Liberal governments of Menzies and Holt that ended it.




Oh really



> Australian unions are proud to support the Welcome to Australia campaign to make asylum seekers and new migrants feel welcome to our country.
> 
> ACTU President Ged Kearney was today announced as an ambassador of Welcome to Australia, which aims to develop diversity, compassion, generosity and a commitment to give all individuals a fair go in our communities, workplaces and institutions.




http://www.actu.org.au/media/mediareleases/AustralianunionssayWelcometoAustraliatoasylumseekersandnewmigrants.aspx


----------



## Junior (28 May 2012)

My brother is a fully trained fitter, who has worked on a few different projects over the past two years.  Port Hedland on the shiploaders, gold mine near Orange, and currently working in oil and gas off the coast of Karratha.  Although he has been able to get reasonably regular work, it's not easy.  He has to make loads of phone calls every day to a range of businesses, he gets ignored, fobbed off, misled etc etc.  It takes lots of persistance until finally they give you very short notice, 'alright your medical is tomorrow, you fly out next week.

I'm in financial services, and have considered making the big switch, to follow the money and the work.  Have had extensive conversations with my brother to discuss the feasibility of it.  He says they won't take anyone without experience and tickets, and even once you are trained, it's difficult to get your first FIFO job.

So although there may be 'shortages' at certain times, it seems to me there's very little proactive hiring or recruiting going on.  If there was a true shortage, an intelligent, physically fit man such as myself should be able to turn up to a mine site, get a few days training and start work as a Trades Assistant, or do a 2 week beginners rigging course and be ready to go.


----------



## moXJO (28 May 2012)

Junior said:


> My brother is a fully trained fitter, who has worked on a few different projects over the past two years.  Port Hedland on the shiploaders, gold mine near Orange, and currently working in oil and gas off the coast of Karratha.  Although he has been able to get reasonably regular work, it's not easy.  He has to make loads of phone calls every day to a range of businesses, he gets ignored, fobbed off, misled etc etc.  It takes lots of persistance until finally they give you very short notice, 'alright your medical is tomorrow, you fly out next week.
> 
> I'm in financial services, and have considered making the big switch, to follow the money and the work.  Have had extensive conversations with my brother to discuss the feasibility of it.  He says they won't take anyone without experience and tickets, and even once you are trained, it's difficult to get your first FIFO job.
> 
> So although there may be 'shortages' at certain times, it seems to me there's very little proactive hiring or recruiting going on.  If there was a true shortage, an intelligent, physically fit man such as myself should be able to turn up to a mine site, get a few days training and start work as a Trades Assistant, or do a 2 week beginners rigging course and be ready to go.




That is the feel of it from the people I have spoken with. Most have tried to get a foot in the door for about a year before it comes good.
 I had one mate who was a security guard earning $22ish an hour get in the mines a few years back and started on about $100k. After 5 years he moved to QLD and is on $250k a year. Knowing someone seems to be the way in.


----------



## Calliope (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Im constantly reading about huge numbers of people becoming unemployed or stepped down to part time and Im sure they are keen as mustard to work ....




Michael Pascoe thinks otherwise;



> And at the other, Australians prefer their local comforts and familiarities rather than moving to where the jobs are. When BlueScope halved its Port Kembla operation, skilled workers were inundated with offers of work from companies further afield, but few were willing to move.
> The Hastie administration today provides immediate scary headlines about thousands of jobs lost, but being in the engineering sector, it creates the opportunity for thousands of people to be employed by other companies seeking their skills.
> Some of the job offers, though, will come up against yet another Australian entitlement: someone, the government of the day presumably, is supposed to supply well-paid work where people prefer to live. A flexible, growing and restructuring economy doesn’t work like that.
> *Fortunately, Australia is still in a position to raid the investment other nations have made in skilled workers willing to go to where the work is*.





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/howe...ign-workers-20120528-1ze6y.html#ixzz1w9AmcFBL


----------



## Macquack (28 May 2012)

I hope Gina Rinehart rots in hell.

Not suprising, three of her four children agree.


----------



## jank (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Are you a POM ?




Not that it matters but no.



numbercruncher said:


> Ha how does being on a 457 all of a sudden qualify you to be an expert of Australian workers ? You use things like Bogan from Western Sydney to support your flawed argument .....



Did I say I was an expert? It was an opinion, based on relevant experience. Have you ever been a migrant or a forgeiner worker in another country? (backpacking aournd UK doesnt count). Everyone here appears to be an "expert" yet no one has ever been through the process of a 457 visa.



numbercruncher said:


> You said ...
> "Most unemployed kiwis or Aussies will not get themselves trained up for the job or have the right attitude"
> That comment borders on racism - certainly biggoted,




Aussies and Kiwis are a race now? What race are they?
A bigot? You are getting your words mixed up.



numbercruncher said:


> does nothing to encourage Australians to accept immigrants like yourself .... Im constantly reading about huge numbers of people becoming unemployed or stepped down to part time and Im sure they are keen as mustard to work ....




If you read a little more the offical rate of unemployment is under 5%, that is generally regarded as full employment in macro economic terms. Just because someone got laid off from a manufacturing job in Victoria doesnt mean that that person is qualified to become an explosives engineer or a Train driver in 2 weeks time, if they are keen or not. Some sectors of the country are in a recession, well its about time because the costs are crazy in Australia.



numbercruncher said:


> One point your right about is that we cant make skilled Mining Engineers overnight - but I didnt see anything about the Rinehart 1700 imports all being skilled mining Engineers ...




I think you missed the part where in total there are about 8000 people working in the project, the vast majority of them are well, you guessed it, Australians.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

Macquack said:


> I hope Gina Rinehart rots in hell.
> 
> Not suprising, three of her four children agree.




I hope she (and Clive Palmer) die of a heart attack real soon. Given how fat they are, they hopefully don't have much longer to live.


----------



## Intrinsic Value (28 May 2012)

I havent read the thread so excuse me if it has already been stated.

But I have seen how the whole 457 visa scheme has been rorted in the IT sector and more specifically in major IT (SAP) projects in Australia.

A lot of the big consulting companies are at it bringing in cheap IT workers from India and SE Asia getting ridiculous charge out rates for what they term as skilled workers who they say are not available in the Australian workplace.

The fact is they dont want to pay what Australians are asking for the same positions as it will impact their ridiculous profit margins. Further in many cases the so called skilled immigrants dont even have the basic skills yet it doesnt stop them bringing them in and doesnt stop them falsifying their resumes.

I have been in the industry a long time and worked on many major SAP implementations and believe me it is a crying shame that many decent intelligent hard working Australians are being ignored for these positions.


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

Macquack said:


> I hope Gina Rinehart rots in hell.
> 
> Not suprising, three of her four children agree.





Yes certainly a reflection on the type of person she is, huge vote of no confidence from your own kids - I see her accumulating large holdings of the Media - no doubt so she can attempt to feed propaganda to the public if she isnt all ready ....


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

jank said:


> Aussies and Kiwis are a race now? What race are they?
> A bigot? You are getting your words mixed up.




"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Enjoy your stay and enjoy your 457


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## JTLP (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Yes certainly a reflection on the type of person she is, huge vote of no confidence from your own kids - I see her accumulating large holdings of the Media - no doubt so she can attempt to feed propaganda to the public if she isnt all ready ....




Wishing death upon people is a bit...ummm...morbid? And sad?

You can't hate somebody for being excessively wealthy. Yes she inherited a successful co but she's also had the business nous to grow it and become the worlds wealthiest woman.

As someone put earlier - she's doing it by the book by applying to the government for the EMA. I don't know why you are whinging at her - you should be shouting down Chris Bowen (who did the RIGHT thing) and the Gillard Govt if you really cared...


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

JTLP said:


> Wishing death upon people is a bit...ummm...morbid? And sad?
> 
> You can't hate somebody for being excessively wealthy. Yes she inherited a successful co but she's also had the business nous to grow it and become the worlds wealthiest woman.
> 
> As someone put earlier - she's doing it by the book by applying to the government for the EMA. I don't know why you are whinging at her - you should be shouting down Chris Bowen (who did the RIGHT thing) and the Gillard Govt if you really cared...




Hello -

Lets get one thing straight I didnt wish death on anyone -

But like three of her kids and I imagine millions of Australians I dont like her much or the current Government that facilitating her little plan.


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

This legendary Aussie agrees too ...



> Australia's richest man, Andrew Forrest, has tacitly criticised the nation's richest woman, Gina Rinehart, for employing foreign workers instead of indigenous labour.
> 
> The Fortescue Metals Group chairman told The Australian newspaper his 'heart bleeds' when indigenous Australians are overlooked for jobs filled by employees from overseas.
> 
> ...




http://www.bigpondmoney.com.au/news/more-finance-news/forrest-slams-rinehart-on-foreign-labour


----------



## JTLP (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Hello -
> 
> Lets get one thing straight I didnt wish death on anyone -
> 
> But like three of her kids and I imagine millions of Australians I dont like her much or the current Government that facilitating her little plan.




Apologies - it was SCM - my bad 

Regarding Twiggy - 'heart bleeds' is a bit rich...and how many indigenous workers could you fill with those roles? Twiggy leading with the feel good and not the logical...


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

JTLP said:


> Wishing death upon people is a bit...ummm...morbid? And sad?
> 
> You can't hate somebody for being excessively wealthy. Yes she inherited a successful co but she's also had the business nous to grow it and become the worlds wealthiest woman.




She didn't invent anything, she didn't build anything, she didn't fund anyone who invented or built anything, she didn't invent any groundbreaking methods of marketting or business, she didn't invest money in some super-smart way - she didn't do ****.

Except of course taking Aussie jobs offshore 


There are lots of bad people in this world, nothing wrong at all with wishing them a speedy death.


----------



## JTLP (28 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> She didn't invent anything, she didn't build anything, she didn't fund anyone who invented or built anything, she didn't invent any groundbreaking methods of marketting or business, she didn't invest money in some super-smart way - she didn't do ****.
> 
> Except of course taking Aussie jobs offshore
> 
> ...




Pretty sure a lot of wealthy people fit your description - do you wish them ill health?

2 things (I know you're trolling but I'll continue):
1 - Why do you care about Australia if you continually bag it out and supposedly are off to Singapore?
2 - She didn't take any jobs offshore - infact if anyone did it was the Government by signing the EMA - bear in mind that without them signing the EMA then NO jobs would have been created as Roy Hill could not have got the investment behind it.

Oh well life is rosy down that rabbit hole hey?


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

JTLP said:


> Pretty sure a lot of wealthy people fit your description - do you wish them ill health?




Everyone should earn and deserve everything they have. If they didn't, then they are bad people.



JTLP said:


> 2 things (I know you're trolling but I'll continue):




That's a pretty arbitrary accusation. If you fancy me a troll, I'd rather not discuss things with you.



JTLP said:


> 1 - Why do you care about Australia if you continually bag it out and supposedly are off to Singapore?




I like Australia as a country, I bag the crappy governments which continue to ruin it. Do you think anyone ever wants to leave their country of residence? I would much rather Australia become a freedom, liberty, democracy and capitalism loving nation. A libertarian paradise. But that ain't happening anytime soon - is it?



JTLP said:


> 2 - She didn't take any jobs offshore - infact if anyone did it was the Government by signing the EMA - bear in mind that without them signing the EMA then NO jobs would have been created as Roy Hill could not have got the investment behind it.




Nobody is forcing her to hire people from overseas. If I was an Australian businessman, not to mention one of the richest people in the country, there's no way in hell I would ever offshore with 9% unemployment (Roy Morgan). It is simply immoral.

EMA is not the government paying business money or giving them any incentive to hire overseas workers - it is merely allowing them to do so. Still, I do not disagree that it is clear our government is utterly corrupt because there is no justification for said agreement.

I find it highly ludicrous how they claim that there aren't enough construction workers at a time when construction firms are going bankrupt due to lack of work.


----------



## Julia (28 May 2012)

jank said:


> Did I say I was an expert? It was an opinion, based on relevant experience. Have you ever been a migrant or a forgeiner worker in another country? (backpacking aournd UK doesnt count). Everyone here appears to be an "expert" yet no one has ever been through the process of a 457 visa.



I'm sure many of us did appreciate your post giving the actual experience of someone coming here on a 457 visa, jank.  Good luck to you.


Starcraftmazter said:


> I hope she (and Clive Palmer) die of a heart attack real soon. Given how fat they are, they hopefully don't have much longer to live.






numbercruncher said:


> Yes certainly a reflection on the type of person she is, huge vote of no confidence from your own kids - I see her accumulating large holdings of the Media - no doubt so she can attempt to feed propaganda to the public if she isnt all ready ....



How pathetic of you both.  You can't find anything legitimate to level at Ms Reinhardt so wish her ill health.
NC, you are in no position to have any understanding of the components of the Reinhardt family's relationships.   For all you know, she may have more than adequate reason to in fact make a vote of no confidence in her children rather than necessarily the other way around.
Just because someone is a blood relative does not automatically confer on them sensible or loyal behaviour.




JTLP said:


> Wishing death upon people is a bit...ummm...morbid? And sad?
> 
> You can't hate somebody for being excessively wealthy. Yes she inherited a successful co but she's also had the business nous to grow it and become the worlds wealthiest woman.
> 
> As someone put earlier - she's doing it by the book by applying to the government for the EMA. I don't know why you are whinging at her - you should be shouting down Chris Bowen (who did the RIGHT thing) and the Gillard Govt if you really cared...



Exactly.
Seems like the same old tall poppy syndrome alive in well from The Left.



Macquack said:


> I hope Gina Rinehart rots in hell.
> 
> Not suprising, three of her four children agree.



 See above.


----------



## Calliope (28 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Seems like the same old tall poppy syndrome alive in well from The Left.




Yes. Class warfare and the politics of envy are alive and well among the pathetic losers on this thread.


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

Julia said:


> You can't find anything legitimate to level at Ms Reinhardt so wish her ill health.
> .





I guess you missed the part about her giving away thousands of jobs with little effort to filling them locally ....

Im surprised you dont too considering you seem to detest the "handout" crew ....


457 might be the only way she can fill jobs going forward anyway- she certainly wouldnt be peoples employer of choice ..... Twiggy and others would make by far better employers imho.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

JTLP said:


> - my bad




That belongs over here - 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24803&page=5


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

Class warfare? The ****? Okey so how about this.

One person, very smart, builds up their business from scratch, does amazing things, their own hard work and skill builds up a multi-billion business. I think nobody here would have any problem with that.

Then you have these scum like "Gina" who inherit their wealth, get lucky off a commodity bubble, do absolutely **** all for the country, and then offshore jobs.

And apparently unless you love them it's class warfare? Please 


I believe in honest pay for honest work. If you do nothing your entire life but get fat and walk around in an ugly dress, off-shoring jobs and taking over media for your own personal propaganda while screwing over the country which gave you your wealth - well, I take issue with that.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Class warfare? The ****? Okey so how about this.
> 
> One person, very smart, builds up their business from scratch, does amazing things, their own hard work and skill builds up a multi-billion business. I think nobody here would have any problem with that.
> 
> ...




Look....she's doing everything within the law, if you had the chance to earn billions what would you do.
So what if she inherited, good luck to her.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Look....she's doing everything within the law, if you had the chance to earn billions what would you do.
> So what if she inherited, good luck to her.




It is *not enough* to follow the law - one must behave in an ethical manner. If one does not, others have every right to call them out on it.

So if you have billions, people are losing their jobs in your country with the precise skills you are after, and yet you hire people from overseas to do the jobs they can easily do - people have every right to call you out on it.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> So if you have billions, people are losing their jobs in your country with the precise skills you are after, and yet you hire people from overseas to do the jobs they can easily do - people have every right to call you out on it.




You mean iike the banks ?
or Telstra? which is part Govt owned ?

Don't expect business to do anything but follow the money thats what theyre there for , if it doesnt suit, get Govt to Ã§hange the law.


----------



## rumpole (28 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Don't expect business to do anything but follow the money thats what theyre there for , if it doesnt suit, get Govt to Ã§hange the law.




Like the MRRT ? That's the government following the money as well. There is no point trying to get taxes from people who haven't got the money.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> Like the MRRT ? That's the government following the money as well. There is no point trying to get taxes from people who haven't got the money.




Thats just bludging extra out of companies to cover your own waste, they dont follow the money as in earn it they just take.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Don't expect business to do anything but follow the money thats what theyre there for , if it doesnt suit, get Govt to Ã§hange the law.




It's not about the law; the government shouldn't have to legislate anything - businesses should do the right thing. If they don't, people should take _their_ business elsewhere. 

Likewise I can't believe people complain when others call out these mining tossers for offshoring.


----------



## JTLP (28 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Everyone should earn and deserve everything they have. If they didn't, then they are bad people.



Bad because you fall into wealth? So anybody who has built up their wealth and has a child - they're automatically labelled 'bad'? Sounds like a reasonable thought process...



Starcraftmazter said:


> That's a pretty arbitrary accusation. If you fancy me a troll, I'd rather not discuss things with you.



We can discuss anything...



Starcraftmazter said:


> I like Australia as a country, I bag the crappy governments which continue to ruin it. Do you think anyone ever wants to leave their country of residence? I would much rather Australia become a freedom, liberty, democracy and capitalism loving nation. A libertarian paradise. But that ain't happening anytime soon - is it?



I agree that some governments aren't as strong as the other (for the record I would really like to see the back of this one) - but on the whole Australia is pretty free and liberal. I too am more capitalist leaning than probably both governments but I can't think of another place I'd rather try and build myself than Australia.



Starcraftmazter said:


> Nobody is forcing her to hire people from overseas. If I was an Australian businessman, not to mention one of the richest people in the country, there's no way in hell I would ever offshore with 9% unemployment (Roy Morgan). It is simply immoral.



She is a businesswoman - trying to ensure that holders of her company are seeing growth and profit in their investments - as well as her own. To simply mothball (a huge project that will employ thousands) this because she couldn't adequately find people in Australia seems like the stroke of someone going from a billionaire to a millionaire no? If she didn't think of an EMA and couldn't get the project off the ground you'd be shouting from the treetops that she's a failed businesswoman. Besides - if I was in her shoes I'd go the EMA option also - keep the greedy unions off my site and ensure a project gets close to being built on time and in budget.



Starcraftmazter said:


> EMA is not the government paying business money or giving them any incentive to hire overseas workers - it is merely allowing them to do so. Still, I do not disagree that it is clear our government is utterly corrupt because there is no justification for said agreement.
> 
> I find it highly ludicrous how they claim that there aren't enough construction workers at a time when construction firms are going bankrupt due to lack of work.



Have you ever looked up the meaning of corruption? Just because they signed the EMA doesn't mean they're corrupt? Remember - a lot is in this for them also - they get the taxes from this project and infrastructure is built - unemployment is kept down etc etc.

How many people want to move to WA and work at Roy Hill? Sure there are jobs - but who's going to stick around and finish the job? As mentioned previously - the drop off %s may be too great to ensure the budgeting of this project.


----------



## rumpole (28 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Thats just bludging extra out of companies to cover your own waste, they dont follow the money as in earn it they just take.




If they weren't taxing Gina more they would have to tax you and me more.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> It's not about the law; the government shouldn't have to legislate anything - businesses should do the right thing. If they don't, people should take _their_ business elsewhere.
> 
> Likewise I can't believe people complain when others call out these mining tossers for offshoring.




Business should do the right thing ?

Who do you invest in ? the soft weak organisations or the ones that make the money ?


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> If they weren't taxing Gina more they would have to tax you and me more.




OR waste less.


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

The Rinehart fan club that seems to have a few members here keeps repeating that she "cant" find locals to fill positions - do you have proof of this ?

I just linked an article about a jobs fair in Perth this weekend in which 14k people attended and team Rinehart didnt even have a careers tent at the event .... For someone who needs to import 1700 457s there is a surprising lack of adverts on her website or seek.com.au 

Its a rort ...


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> The Rinehart fan club that seems to have a few members here keeps repeating that she "cant" find locals to fill positions - do you have proof of this ?
> 
> I just linked an article about a jobs fair in Perth this weekend in which 14k people attended and team Rinehart didnt even have a careers tent at the event .... For someone who needs to import 1700 457s there is a surprising lack of adverts on her website or seek.com.au
> 
> Its a rort ...




I think if it was a rort the socialists in Canberra would be right onto it.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

JTLP said:


> Bad because you fall into wealth? So anybody who has built up their wealth and has a child - they're automatically labelled 'bad'? Sounds like a reasonable thought process...




You contradict yourself. If they built up their wealth when they were young - then sure they deserve it. I don't see how age is relevant. How does one fall into wealth? If they do, it is their responsibility to earn it and use it for the betterment of humankind IMO. They didn't deserve it, therefore they should stake no specific claim to it.



JTLP said:


> I agree that some governments aren't as strong as the other (for the record I would really like to see the back of this one) - but on the whole Australia is pretty free and liberal. I too am more capitalist leaning than probably both governments but I can't think of another place I'd rather try and build myself than Australia.




How is it free and liberal? As Australians we have no freedoms - zero, nada. No bill of rights - nothing. This government even almost introduced Internet censorship. How crazy is that? We were a hair's width from living in an Iran. And what about Julian Assange? Sell him out as an Australian citizen because USA pissed in Darwin to mark their territory. Not to mention Australia has even broader terrorism definitions than USA. Pathetic.

There is no freedom and liberty here. And there's nothing capitalist about very high taxes and taking 35% of all tax revenue from the most productive members of society and giving it to the most unproductive and undesirable members of society to reproduce. Even in the Soviet Union that would not happen - they'd send the lazy bogans to gulags instead. Even a quasi-communist country is better than Australia.



JTLP said:


> She is a businesswoman - trying to ensure that holders of her company are seeing growth and profit in their investments - as well as her own. To simply mothball (a huge project that will employ thousands) this because she couldn't adequately find people in Australia seems like the stroke of someone going from a billionaire to a millionaire no? If she didn't think of an EMA and couldn't get the project off the ground you'd be shouting from the treetops that she's a failed businesswoman. Besides - if I was in her shoes I'd go the EMA option also - keep the greedy unions off my site and ensure a project gets close to being built on time and in budget.




And all this could easily be done with Australian labour. 



JTLP said:


> Have you ever looked up the meaning of corruption? Just because they signed the EMA doesn't mean they're corrupt? Remember - a lot is in this for them also - they get the taxes from this project and infrastructure is built - unemployment is kept down etc etc.




If you are a politician, employed by the Australian people - powered by Australian taxpayers, how can it not be called corruption when you give companies the power to hire from overseas, the exact same workers who are presently losing their jobs in Australia? That doesn't keep unemployment down - it only increases it, and the tax collections would come either way.

Our politicians *do not represent our best interests* - they represent the interests of the rich. "Oh Ms. Rinehart, would you please publish positive things about ALP in Fairfax's newspapers so that I could get the PM salary again for 3 more years?". These people are filthy pigs, and taxpayers ought to be pissed off.




JTLP said:


> How many people want to move to WA and work at Roy Hill? Sure there are jobs - but who's going to stick around and finish the job? As mentioned previously - the drop off %s may be too great to ensure the budgeting of this project.




Kill unemployment benefits and people will be signing up by the tens of thousands. Either way, there's no way to prove that there's not enough people unless locals get a chance.



MrBurns said:


> Business should do the right thing ?
> 
> Who do you invest in ? the soft weak organisations or the ones that make the money ?




I don't invest, I trade. And I fail to see how investment decisions come into this.


----------



## Junior (28 May 2012)

Not saying for a second I support the EMA.

But how about big businesses setting up call centres in India?  Or major retailers importing from China rather than manufacturing locally?  Big business are motivated by profit.  Labour is getting very very expensive here.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (28 May 2012)

Junior said:


> Not saying for a second I support the EMA.
> 
> But how about big businesses setting up call centres in India?  Or major retailers importing from China rather than manufacturing locally?  Big business are motivated by profit.  Labour is getting very very expensive here.




Blame the government for creating the biggest housing bubble in the world result in what can only be called wage hyperinflation.

Still, allegedly, we are told, that these foreign workers will be paid equivalent to local ones? Hah - I have my doubts. Why should the best performing industry get special exceptions to deal with this while others left to suffer?

What gives the federal government to pick winners and losers, and why pick the industry which employs the least people and yet has the most adversely terrible economic impact on Australia to be the winner?

*Corruption* - that's why.


----------



## ROE (28 May 2012)

The reality of the world is 
Business are not charity, they exist to make money for their owners
If they break the law fine them, suspense their license etc... but if they operate within the law you cant penalise them for it because that is the nature of the beast (make money)

Whether they import jobs or source local job that is their moral and not many business has great social moral, the one that do mostly end up at corporate graveyard.

It's a dog eat dog world in business, they are all out there cut each other throats within the boundary of the laws.

BHP/RIO cut a good deal on the resource tax at the expenses of smaller miners and that is their nature...it's all around you, you cant escape it learn to work with it.

Gina probably do this deal to even out BHP/RIO for cutting other deals with the government on resource tax


----------



## Macquack (28 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Seems like the same old *tall poppy syndrome *alive in well from The Left.




It is a national pastime just like bagging the government.

As Numbercruncher says, this is a rort and Reinhart is a con.


----------



## numbercruncher (28 May 2012)

Hastie engineering services now in administration - 2700 Engineering related positions threatened ..... Goodplace for Miners to start recruiting ... Or maybe its cheaper to get 457's and drop our guys on the dole ?


----------



## johenmo (29 May 2012)

Wow - lots of discussion since I last looked...

I find the relocation point interesting, as someone who has moved  for/with work every 5 or 6 years, including 12 yrs OS - & left the west 22 years ago.  Lots of people with families don't want to move too far -  a point Julia made early on.  In Australia, that's generally out of the state.  even to a far corner of the state is too much,  FIFO is time away from the family & they don't want to do that.  A fair proportion of ppl losing jobs are family ppl & just don't want to move.  It's hard moving kids in late high school n some relationships wouldn't cope with the separation.

Been up North WA at various times of the year - last time was Jan this year.  It's bloody hot n humid over summer.  The southern states feel that low 30's is hot.  It takes time to acclimatise n the mining companies won't/can't take that time.

The above points makes a lot of potential ppl unsuitable.  But sometimes you just have to suck it up and shift.  

Perhaps making benefits conditional in some way may shift some (e.g. won't move, then half benefit).  Not sure how it could work without being manipulated.


----------



## johenmo (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Hastie engineering services now in administration - 2700 Engineering related positions threatened ..... Goodplace for Miners to start recruiting ... Or maybe its cheaper to get 457's and drop our guys on the dole ?




Cheaper for the employer to get the 457 from the right country.  More expensive for the taxpayer to drop them on the dole.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

Just found an article exposing this scam further - obviously this money Hungry Rinehart is just acting out a long standing plan ...



> THERE is a little-known group called Australians for Northern Development and Economic Vision that advocates a special economic zone for northern Australia where businesses can freely bring in temporary workers for construction labour. Among its sponsors is Gina Rinehart, chairman of Hancock Prospecting.
> 
> With the first enterprise migration agreement being reached for Hancock Prospecting's Roy Hill iron ore project, the ''Queen of the Pilbara'' has arguably come closer to realising her aim of a special economic zone.
> 
> ...




Seems to me this woman is driven by sheer greed.


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> *Then you have these scum like "Gina"* who inherit their wealth, get lucky off a commodity bubble, do absolutely **** all for the country, and then offshore jobs.
> 
> And apparently unless you love them it's class warfare? Please
> 
> I believe in honest pay for honest work. *If you do nothing your entire life but get fat and walk around in an ugly dress*, off-shoring jobs and taking over media for your own personal propaganda while screwing over the country which gave you your wealth - well, I take issue with that.




The scum on this thread is coming to the surface. Obviously all you brave class warriors with a lynch mob mentality, would like to rid the country of people like  Rinehart, who are driving the mining boom which is the only thing that keeps this country and your Labor Government afloat.



> one must behave in an ethical manner




Pot/kettle?


----------



## moXJO (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> The Rinehart fan club that seems to have a few members here keeps repeating that she "cant" find locals to fill positions - do you have proof of this ?
> 
> I just linked an article about a jobs fair in Perth this weekend in which 14k people attended and team Rinehart didnt even have a careers tent at the event .... For someone who needs to import 1700 457s there is a surprising lack of adverts on her website or seek.com.au
> 
> Its a rort ...




I linked some numbers before, also the retention rate is a problem
The problem isn't local when it comes to shortages.


> G
> lobally the mining industry is faced with a shortage of
> qualified talent to meet its production needs. Every
> year there are more people leaving than entering this
> ...



http://www.miningsearch.com/wp-content/uploads/Article-Mining.com-Recruitment-and-Retention.pdf





> Using estimation procedures from other industries, we calculated that the cost of
> ‘average’ employee turnover at an open-cut FIFO mine of 300 employees would be in
> the order of $2.8 million.
> Most interviewees agreed that a turnover rate above 20 per cent was detrimental to
> ...




Study of workforce turnover http://www.csrm.uq.edu.au/docs/TURN_FINAL.pdf

Bowens thinking on why he bought in 457


> The biggest risk to some of our resources projects being completed in Australia is actually getting the necessary skills, the highly specialised skills in many cases, which go to the construction of large resources projects and, of course, that has flow-on effects throughout the construction sector to ensure that we have the right mix of skills ava* stressed that the agreement is designed to bring workers in for temporary peak demand, not the long term.*ilable,” Australian Minister of Immigration and Citizenship Chris Bowen said in a press conference on 3rd April, announcing the agreement.
> Bowen, alongside Tertiary Education, Skills, Science and Research Minister Chris Evans,
> *While the government will continue to help train Australian workers, it wants to avoid training people who will then be left without jobs*, Evans said.



http://miningforskills.com.au/?cat=4

Will add to this later.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

You struggle to find Rinehart even advertising jobs, its clear she is a scam in pursuit of her Northern economic exclusion zone - next she will want the Pilbara annexed rename it the Republic of Rinehart and employ a private Army wearing dodgy Chinese shoes !!

You go to a professional/fair organisation like Rio Tintos Job Web and jobs are clearly advertised and available ....

http://jobs.riotinto.com.au/browse


----------



## Glen48 (29 May 2012)

I was under the impression the newspaper business world wide is fighting to stay alive yet she is buying in , is she doing this as revenge against the board or does she want control to push her own agenda...


The world's richest woman Gina Rinehart has increased her stake in Australian media group Fairfax, the company said Monday, as she lashed out at the chairman after being denied a board seat.
Rinehart, who has a fortune of Aus$29.17 billion (US$28.48 billion) according to an annual index by Business Review Weekly, increased her holding to more than 13 percent from the 12.8 percent she bought in February.
Her foray into the market -- she was already Fairfax's largest shareholder -- came just days after she was overlooked for a Fairfax board seat in favour of former Ernst & Young boss James Millar.
In a statement to Fairfax's Sydney Morning Herald, the iron ore billionaire questioned chairman Roger Corbett's abilities, saying he had presided over a huge loss in the market value of the newspaper, radio and digital media firm.
"Answers need to be given as to how the chairman will address this in the interests of all shareholders, rather than merely hoping for improvements in circulation, revenue and share price or perhaps trying to blame... industry conditions," she said.
Rinehart is understood to have requested two board seats at Fairfax after becoming its largest shareholder earlier this year.
Her initial move into the company prompted the government to flag stronger media ownership laws, with Communications Minister Stephen Conroy saying Rinehart, who has been critical of the government, wanted to exert her influence.
Current media ownership laws, designed to promote diversity of opinion and ownership, prevent anyone from acquiring more than 15 percent of Fairfax, whose shares gained 3.20 percent to close at Aus$0.645.
MORE STORIES


----------



## MrBurns (29 May 2012)

Glen48 said:


> I was under the impression the newspaper business world wide is fighting to stay alive yet she is buying in , is she doing this as revenge against the board or does she want control to push her own agenda...




Fairfax is a basket case, she's welcome to it, perhaps she can get rid of all the bludgers in there.


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

So it's all just hot air.



> In parliament, Mr Bowen, Wayne Swan, Resources Minister Martin Ferguson and Ms Gillard defended the Roy Hill EMA."This project is vital for Australia's future, and this agreement is vital for delivering it," Mr Bowen said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...k-over-jobs-deal/story-fn59noo3-1226370607069


----------



## rumpole (29 May 2012)

Glen48 said:


> I was under the impression the newspaper business world wide is fighting to stay alive yet she is buying in , is she doing this as revenge against the board or does she want control to push her own agenda...




She simply wants a propaganda vehicle to push her own ideology and opinions onto the rest of us.


----------



## noco (29 May 2012)

So the Hastie group has gone itno liquidation!!!! 

Great to the see unions scrambling over each other to get the company back on it's feet. Yeah,yeah and pigs might fly.

With 2700 now looking for jobs, I ask the question how many will be willing to go to the Pliburra or will they be more than happy to go on the dole?

Never mind, I guess that will mean more jobs for foreign workers. At least it will give the unions something to whinge about..


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

More bad news for the Rinehart haters.

The Queensland government has give approval for the go-ahead for the multi billion dollar Alpha Coal Project in the Galliee Basin.

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=79367


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

noco said:


> With 2700 now looking for jobs, I ask the question how many will be willing to go to the Pliburra or will they be more than happy to go on the dole?
> ..





Your tone suggests you think these people who lost their jobs with no warning would be "Happy" to go on the dole ..... supporting families on 200 bucks a week - seriously .....

Seems Rineharts brainwashing via the media is playing on peoples brain already ...

Anyone notice the surge lately in Bludger related articles on News shows ? Seen two segments in the last week .... Awesome stuff convince the impressionable masses that Australia is full of dole bludgers to support the case to bring in Thousands of temporary low paid foreign workers to help her on her Quest to be the wealthiest person on earth ....

pretty scary ....


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Everyone should earn and deserve everything they have. If they didn't, then they are bad people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are a libertarian yet you want protectionism of jobs and curbs to skilled migration. Hmmmm, I don't think you get what libertarian-ism is mate.

Also, I like the way you judge people yet you don't know them and wish them ill health. A sure sign of insecurity.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
> 
> Enjoy your stay and enjoy your 457




Im a permanent resident now, How long did you google to find that quote?


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> Im a permanent resident now





Awesome stuff Jank - welcome to the team - lets hope they dont replace you with a lower paid 457 !


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> You are a libertarian yet you want protectionism of jobs and curbs to skilled migration. Hmmmm, I don't think you get what libertarian-ism is mate.
> 
> Also, I like the way you judge people yet you don't know them and wish them ill health. A sure sign of insecurity.




Starry's and NC's ideal version of class hatred disappeared with the Berlin Wall. Perhaps they should relocate to Cuba. No Rineharts there. Entrepreneurs get short shrift there.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> How is it free and liberal? As Australians we have no freedoms - zero, nada. No bill of rights - nothing. This government even almost introduced Internet censorship. How crazy is that? We were a hair's width from living in an Iran. And what about Julian Assange? Sell him out as an Australian citizen because USA pissed in Darwin to mark their territory. Not to mention Australia has even broader terrorism definitions than USA. Pathetic.
> 
> There is no freedom and liberty here. And there's nothing capitalist about very high taxes and taking 35% of all tax revenue from the most productive members of society and giving it to the most unproductive and undesirable members of society to reproduce. Even in the Soviet Union that would not happen - they'd send the lazy bogans to gulags instead. Even a quasi-communist country is better than Australia.
> 
> ...




You are a VERY confused individual. You are also a disgrace thinking that Australia is some sort of Proxy Iranian state. Have you been to the middle east? Have you lived and worked in any other part of the world? Australia is one of the freest, liberal and best countries to work and be successful in. I should know as a migrant. To state that a quasi communist state would be better then what we have now is horse manure. It is also disrespectful to the tens of thousands of people in the world fighting for their own freedom. See Syria and Egypt for example. You are so confused and blinkered there is almost no point arguing with you as you are the type of person that will just go round and round in contradictions.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Awesome stuff Jank - welcome to the team - lets hope they dont replace you with a lower paid 457 !



As I work in IT the legal minimum someone on a 457 visa can be paid is about $67k a year. I earn a little bit over this but plan to move jobs soon.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Starry's and NC's ideal version of class hatred disappeared with the Berlin Wall. Perhaps they should relocate to Cuba. No Rineharts there. Entrepreneurs get short shrift there.





Ha !! Typical extremists - Just because we dissagree with her questionable at best business practices its class hatred !!? .... I happen to think that Andrew Forrest is an absolute freaking Aussie legend - Im sure youll come up with some cliche' to label me with from that comment too ....

Im with 3 out of 4 of Gina's kids - take it off her before its too late !

Dont know why I even bother responding to some of you ....


----------



## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> The scum on this thread is coming to the surface. Obviously all you brave class warriors with a lynch mob mentality, would like to rid the country of people like  Rinehart, who are driving the mining boom which is the only thing that keeps this country and your Labor Government afloat.




I don't care for the ALP government - but the mining boom is *not* keeping the country afloat - it is destroying our economy by inducing currency speculation, while selling our resources to other countries and paying dividend profits to foreign shareholders. If all mining disappeared tomorrow - I'd be a much happier person.



jank said:


> You are a libertarian yet you want protectionism of jobs and curbs to skilled migration. Hmmmm, I don't think you get what libertarian-ism is mate.




I'm not asking for anything - it only makes sense that Australian businesses employ Australian workers. Anything else is a borderless communist society.

Beyond that, you cannot have immigration alongside taxpayer funded welfare, healthcare and other services. You just can't - that isn't fair.



jank said:


> You are a VERY confused individual. You are also a disgrace thinking that Australia is some sort of Proxy Iranian state. Have you been to the middle east? Have you lived and worked in any other part of the world? Australia is one of the freest, liberal and best countries to work and be successful in. I should know as a migrant. To state that a quasi communist state would be better then what we have now is horse manure. It is also disrespectful to the tens of thousands of people in the world fighting for their own freedom. See Syria and Egypt for example. You are so confused and blinkered there is almost no point arguing with you as you are the type of person that will just go round and round in contradictions.




Just because many Australians are glued to the TV and facebook believing they have freedom, doesn't make it so. You say a lot of things - but nothing to back them up. I gave concrete examples proving that Australians have no freedom, you would do better to try and tackle those than posting mindless dribble.

To some people like you, words such as freedom and liberty are meaningless. To me, they are not. I understand the difference between living in an Australia or a Switzerland.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

If you look at the big picture Starcraftmazter is correct -

The benefits of the mining boom go to the minority - entire other industries have been wrecked such as Tourism and Manufacturing. Agriculture suffers. The environment suffers.

But as long as demand for these resources exists I dont see it changing - a Government addicted to these revenues and one thats becoming increasingly controlled by the Super wealthy -

The mining industry is here to stay but it needs to be done responsibly and to me and others it seems Rinehart is on a reckless pursuit of wealth and power.

Maybe eventually we can all just retire and bring in 457s in every industry - surfs up dudes


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Ha !! Typical extremists - Just because we dissagree with her questionable at best business practices its class hatred !!? .... I happen to think that Andrew Forrest is an absolute freaking Aussie legend - Im sure youll come up with some cliche' to label me with from that comment too ....
> 
> Im with 3 out of 4 of Gina's kids - take it off her before its too late !
> 
> Dont know why I even bother responding to some of you ....




Yes why bother when you have nothing add except you irrational hatred of Rinehart. I suppose her win in the Alpha Project will tip you over the edge.

And this is Starry's little gem of stupidity; Now we know why he is so bitter and unhappy. 



> If all mining disappeared tomorrow - I'd be a much happier person



.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I'm not asking for anything - it only makes sense that Australian businesses employ Australian workers. Anything else is a borderless communist society..




You asking that all Australian business employ Australians regardless of their skills, ability to work or experience of the job at hand? That is a very authoritarian and protectionist outlook on life. Why does it make sense? The world is not as black and white as you would like to make out. Should all other foreign companies only employ people from where the company was founded. Apple could only employ Americans. Toyota Japanese, etc.. What a stupid idea. We live in a global economy. You actually have no idea what you are on about. Do you even know what communism is? It a society based on no state, class or money where the means of production are collectively owned by the "people". So how the frigging hell is Australia a borderline communist state. 




Starcraftmazter said:


> Beyond that, you cannot have immigration alongside taxpayer funded welfare, healthcare and other services. You just can't - that isn't fair...




Please explain this rubbish because I have no idea what you are on about. When I was on a 457 visa i paid a load of taxes even though I was entitled to hardly anything. I got no Medicare, education or any other service that I wanted I had to pay extra because I was a temp resident. It has been proven so many times that skilled migrants are net contributors to the tax base. Even now as a permanent resident even though I have been here almost 3 years already I have to wait another 2 years before I can claim any welfare benefit (not that I am going to). Them are the rules.




Starcraftmazter said:


> Just because many Australians are glued to the TV and facebook believing they have freedom, doesn't make it so. You say a lot of things - but nothing to back them up. I gave concrete examples proving that Australians have no freedom, you would do better to try and tackle those than posting mindless dribble..




Just because people don't exert their freedoms on a daily basis doesn't mean they don't have it. 

The very fact that we are on the internet having this discussion blows what ever rant you have out of the water. If this was China, we would probably be arrested. North Koredoesn'tnt have the internet for FFS. I can go protest peacefully in the street, join a political party of my choosing, have whatever faith I want, raise my children in peace without shells dropping on our heads or for the fear of them being taken away while i amurdereded or butchered for being of the wrong sex, religion, ageethnicityty. There are many areas in the world you cannot do that. Is Australia perfect, not a chance, but then again show me a perfect society.



Starcraftmazter said:


> To some people like you, words such as freedom and liberty are meaningless. To me, they are not. I understand the difference between living in an Australia or a Switzerland.




Do you, so please explain.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Maybe eventually we can all just retire and bring in 457s in every industry - surfs up dudes




Large swathes of western Sydney are doing that already.


----------



## moXJO (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> If you look at the big picture Starcraftmazter is correct -
> 
> The benefits of the mining boom go to the minority - entire other industries have been wrecked such as Tourism and Manufacturing. Agriculture suffers. The environment suffers.
> 
> ...




What you have to remember is that the unions want to stop 457 so they can take advantage and increase wages on labor shortages. Not because 457 will lower wages. The second reason is that those on 457 don't join the union. I actually think labor has been hard done by here and this has all been blown out of proportion. Some business does take advantage of the 457 visa. But I'm not sure it's that much of a problem.
But I agree that Australia needs to focus on the other industries and trade partnerships. Something labor has never had any vision for. 

Here is the rundown of recommendations from the Resourcing the Future Report
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Skills/Programs/National/nrset/Documents/FinalReport.pdf



> Recommendations
> • Promote workforce planning and sharing of information
> • Increase the number of trade professionals
> • Graduate more engineers and geoscientists
> ...





Further thoughts on which I agree with
http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/05/28/why-getting-australians-into-mining-jobs-doesnt-add-up/


> But the problem is there aren’t that many skilled Australians looking for jobs. Gray’s estimate is that the resources sector might be 36,000 tradespeople short by 2015. Worse, given the location of mining industry jobs, it makes little economic sense to assume people from major centres in the eastern states will relocate to take them.
> 
> Why? It’s nothing to with laziness or being work-shy. It simply doesn’t add up. The biggest group of unemployed people are married people between 35-54. That means they’re likely to have families. Moving your family to a town adjacent to a major mining project is problematic: wages are likely to be high, but so too will housing costs, cancelling out the benefits of any income rise. Ordinary household supplies will also be more expensive. Access to childcare or education choices for your kids is likely to be very limited, as will health-care options.
> 
> ...


----------



## Glen48 (29 May 2012)

Any idea who Gina wants to employ there are thousands of job's going in UAE Canada and I guess USA on shale oil so she will have to pay well, so other than specialist occupations  Oz should be able to supply all she needs and once the hunger pains kick in workers will go where the money is.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Yes why bother when you have nothing add except you irrational hatred of Rinehart.
> .




Saying someone is irrational isnt good enough in a debate you need some specific examples of my supposed irrational behaviour, Im happy to be wrong ive learnt alot this way through my life - Ive supported my viewpoints on grounds such as her lack of Job advertisments , No representation at this weekends Perth Jobs fair , Her push for a Northern Economic Zone , 3 out of four of her Kids vote of no confidence , Her raid on Fairfax obviously to control the media etc

Where as your contribution to the debate is little more than personal insult with zero substance and no reference to any facts - perhaps your part of the Rinehart public relations team ?


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Saying someone is irrational isnt good enough in a debate you need some specific examples of my supposed irrational behaviour




Class hatred and denunciation of Rinehart just because she is successful, is irrational behaviour. Why do you still bother to respond when you have nothing to add?


----------



## moXJO (29 May 2012)

Regarding lack of advertisement I have to agree, although I think a lot has to do with the mines using recruitment agencies? I think the combination of tightarse mine management and unreasonable union demands has created a situation where they no longer train or hire in house if it can be avoided. Pure speculation on my part


----------



## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> You asking that all Australian business employ Australians regardless of their skills, ability to work or experience of the job at hand? That is a very authoritarian and protectionist outlook on life. Why does it make sense? The world is not as black and white as you would like to make out. Should all other foreign companies only employ people from where the company was founded. Apple could only employ Americans. Toyota Japanese, etc.. What a stupid idea. We live in a global economy. You actually have no idea what you are on about. Do you even know what communism is? It a society based on no state, class or money where the means of production are collectively owned by the "people". So how the frigging hell is Australia a borderline communist state.




You have mixed up two separate concepts here, suggesting that companies employ workers from the country where said company was founded. No, I am merely suggesting that if a company is doing business in Australia - be it running a factory, a mine, an office, a retail store - then it makes sense to draw from the manpower pool of the country where that specific work site is operating.

A communist society is one without borders or nations where all labour is united. That seems to be very much what you suggest.




jank said:


> Please explain this rubbish because I have no idea what you are on about. When I was on a 457 visa i paid a load of taxes even though I was entitled to hardly anything. I got no Medicare, education or any other service that I wanted I had to pay extra because I was a temp resident. It has been proven so many times that skilled migrants are net contributors to the tax base. Even now as a permanent resident even though I have been here almost 3 years already I have to wait another 2 years before I can claim any welfare benefit (not that I am going to). Them are the rules.




But then you will be able to claim said welfare benefits. And healthcare. That's pretty ridiculous. You can't have any immigration unless you have a nation where said immigrations will not be entitled to taxpayer funded services at any point in time in their lives. The simple reason is, other people have been paying taxes for longer than anyone who immigrates here, so it doesn't seem fair that everyone gets equal treatment while having paid a disproportionate amount of tax.

That being said, I don't think tax is far anyway - if we simply downsized the federal government by 99% it would solve all problems.



jank said:


> The very fact that we are on the internet having this discussion blows what ever rant you have out of the water. If this was China, we would probably be arrested. North Koredoesn'tnt have the internet for FFS. I can go protest peacefully in the street, join a political party of my choosing, have whatever faith I want, raise my children in peace without shells dropping on our heads or for the fear of them being taken away while i amurdereded or butchered for being of the wrong sex, religion, ageethnicityty. There are many areas in the world you cannot do that. Is Australia perfect, not a chance, but then again show me a perfect society.




How pathetic of an argument are you trying to mount, if you are forced to compare Australia to the worst countries in the world when it comes to freedoms - just to try and make the case that we have some? Thank you for proving my point.



jank said:


> Do you, so please explain.




How about the freedom to do and say as we please, not be the target of government spying, freedom to live without being taxed for things we don't need and for wars we don't support, not have to live in the fear of being labelled a terrorist for some arbitrary reason, have a government that actually cares about it's citizens and protects their freedoms as opposed to selling them out if USA says so.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

moXJO said:


> What you have to remember is that the unions want to stop 457 so they can take advantage and increase wages on labor shortages. Not because 457 will lower wages. The second reason is that those on 457 don't join the union. I actually think labor has been hard done by here and this has all been blown out of proportion. Some business does take advantage of the 457 visa. But I'm not sure it's that much of a problem.
> But I agree that Australia needs to focus on the other industries and trade partnerships. Something labor has never had any vision for.
> 
> Here is the rundown of recommendations from the Resourcing the Future Report
> ...




I have no reason to doubt that this is the case with some Unionists -

I dont think anyone has a issue with skilled labour 457 when they cant get a suitable local - I just dont see how this Rinehart deal is genuine - everything smells like its Financially motivated as opposed to a shortage of a whopping 1700 people on this project.

Thing is 457 is way too easy to rort -



> There is no requirement that a business seeking an EMA demonstrate that there are labour shortages affecting its operation. Nor does the business need to demonstrate that no Australian is available to perform the work undertaken by a 457 worker (it only needs to demonstrate ''effective and ongoing local recruitment efforts'')
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/457-reasons-for-reform-20120528-1zf6y.html#ixzz1wDuNFHjG




Im not sure Rinehart even meets the effective and ongoing recruitment efforts clause - anyone able to pull me up and prove me absolutely wrong on that ?


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Class hatred and denunciation of Rinehart just because she is successful, is irrational behaviour. Why do you still bother to respond when you have nothing to add?





You can do better than that Calliope - the fact that you pressed the reply button proves your not a full 100% lazy -


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> Large swathes of western Sydney are doing that already.




Western Sydney is full of 457 doing the work ?


----------



## moXJO (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> I have no reason to doubt that this is the case with some Unionists -
> 
> I dont think anyone has a issue with skilled labour 457 when they cant get a suitable local - I just dont see how this Rinehart deal is genuine - everything smells like its Financially motivated as opposed to a shortage of a whopping 1700 people on this project.
> 
> ...




Yeah I'm not big on Rinehart, but I think this whole thing blew up after wayne swans class war. Notice how he has kept his mouth shut. I'm wondering if it was some kind of labor distraction.

 I suppose it's a matter of how many locals they have already put on and if they have come to a point where 457 is needed for the short term.
When you think about it you are basically living at work for 3 weeks 12 hour days in some cases. Not only that but your living in a hot $hithole. So even though the wages seem good, they ain't that good if you have a family. Really need a link to the numbers on the project.


----------



## imperator (29 May 2012)

I don't see what the big fuss is? It's clear there are labour shortages in the mining industry, particularly in some parts of the country, and if those projects need foreign labour to proceed, well so be it. Let's hope some of they stay and become valued members of Australian society, just like hundred of thousands of emigrant workers who have come before them!

Sure, there is a role for the government to "mediate" per se to ensure that Australian's don't get shafted and that such arrangements are used appropriately. For example, making sure these workers are paid the same as an Australian with the same skill sets would be paid so that such schemes can't be used to shaft under cut locals. 

What frustrates me is that I have never heard a clear message from the current labour/green government. Why can't they just come out, call things as they are, be clear, consistent, and most importantly, at least appear like they know what's going on... An issue like this is clearly very political, and we need some political leadership, something we have now been missing for a number of years.

Please note: the author is a swinging voter who attempts to vote for who he thinks is the best candidate. Unfortunately, he made the mistake of voting for Keving back in 07.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

imperator said:


> It's clear there are labour shortages in the mining industry, particularly in some parts of the country, and if those projects need foreign labour to proceed, well so be it.




How is it clear - pray tell? As for the locations - that is irrelevant, because of a little thing known as *labour mobility*.


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

imperator said:


> I don't see what the big fuss is? It's clear there are labour shortages in the mining industry, particularly in some parts of the country, and if those projects need foreign labour to proceed, well so be it. Let's hope some of they stay and become valued members of Australian society, just like hundred of thousands of emigrant workers who have come before them!




The big fuss is all just hot air driven by Doug Cameron. It is obvious that the Rinehaters are in the Cameron camp, i.e. the losers.

I repeat from a previous post;



> In parliament, Mr Bowen, Wayne Swan, Resources Minister Martin Ferguson and Ms Gillard defended the Roy Hill EMA."This project is vital for Australia's future, and this agreement is vital for delivering it," Mr Bowen said.



End of story.

Another gem from Starry. How quaint.



> How is it clear - pray tell?


----------



## moXJO (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> As for the locations - that is irrelevant, because of a little thing known as *labour mobility*.




Could you expand on this?


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> The big fuss is all just hot air driven by Doug Cameron. It is obvious that the Rinehaters are in the Cameron camp, i.e. the losers.
> 
> I repeat from a previous post;
> 
> ...




Five minutes ago by implication of your response one would have to belive you hate the Labor Government now your using what that very Government that you detest said as the core of your pro Rinehart stance ....

You can do better Calliope !!!


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Five minutes ago by implication of your response one would have to belive you hate the Labor Government now your using what that very Government that you detest said as the core of your pro Rinehart stance ....
> 
> You can do better Calliope !!!




No need to. Your leaders reject your argument.


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

Paul Howes can't take a trick. Now she wants to dig up coal where there are no workers.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

moXJO said:


> Could you expand on this?




Sure. A lot of constructions workers are losing their jobs, especially around Melbourne because of their mammoth overbuilding of property. The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!


----------



## moXJO (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Sure. A lot of constructions workers are losing their jobs, especially around Melbourne because of their mammoth overbuilding of property. The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!




Are they finding jobs in this (supposed) low unemployment environment without having to take up the mine work?
 I know a few that have got into the mines that were in construction, but mainly local. It's just shifting the skills shortage though.
Govt and business has dropped the ball on education and training.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

moXJO said:


> Govt and business has dropped the ball on education and training.




Couldn't agree more. Crossposting this from another forum because it's a great point.




> From thewest website
> "Foreigners will need to be able to speak English and typically have the equivalent of Certificate III and three years on-the-job experience.
> Among the jobs to be filled include electricians, riggers, fitters and turners, scaffolders, boilermakers and concrete pourers."
> 
> ...


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!




Ah! The Siberian solution! *Have them move *there and keep them there in Gulags.


----------



## Julia (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> The benefits of the mining boom go to the minority - entire other industries have been wrecked such as Tourism and Manufacturing. Agriculture suffers.



Can you explain exactly the mechanism by which mining activity wrecks both tourism and manufacturing?



jank said:


> We live in a global economy. You actually have no idea what you are on about. Do you even know what communism is? It a society based on no state, class or money where the means of production are collectively owned by the "people". So how the frigging hell is Australia a borderline communist state.
> 
> Just because people don't exert their freedoms on a daily basis doesn't mean they don't have it.
> 
> ...



Asking for a rational explanation of SCM's rants is an exercise in futility.




moXJO said:


> Yeah I'm not big on Rinehart, but I think this whole thing blew up after wayne swans class war. Notice how he has kept his mouth shut. I'm wondering if it was some kind of labor distraction.



Of course it was.  Anything to divert attention from the Thomson and Slipper debacles.  And look how well it's working.  Even just on this forum.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Ah! The Siberian solution! *Have them move *there and keep them there in Gulags.




Gulags? Last I check mining workers get paid a hefty penny.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> A communist society is one without borders or nations where all labour is united. That seems to be very much what you suggest..





Seriously, do you even read what i write? Am I suggesting we collectivise the country? People get paid in wheat and suger? No, they are enumerated by cash which contributes to the economy. Who owns the means of production. Shareholders which anyone can buy into if they have capital. Its called capitalism for a reason.
Nation states exist but businesses can trade without borders in alot of cases but are still held to the legislation of those countries in which it operates in. There is no conspiracy theory here.





Starcraftmazter said:


> But then you will be able to claim said welfare benefits. And healthcare. That's pretty ridiculous. You can't have any immigration unless you have a nation where said immigrations will not be entitled to taxpayer funded services at any point in time in their lives. The simple reason is, other people have been paying taxes for longer than anyone who immigrates here, so it doesn't seem fair that everyone gets equal treatment while having paid a disproportionate amount of tax.
> 
> That being said, I don't think tax is far anyway - if we simply downsized the federal government by 99% it would solve all problems...




Of course I cam claim these things, I am a taxpayer. Immigrants are taxpayers too you dope! Why should a person pay tax and then be refused services because they are not a natural born person of that nation state? There is a large waiting period for anyone wanting to work in this country if they want to claim any service. During that time a person who has worked will have made a huge net contribution in taxes to the state. So the period for me is almost 5 years, What should it be? 1,10? never??? 

So a person who enters the country at 18 or 5 or whatever, works all their lives and retires at 65 is not able to claim anything?  LOL, you are a seriously confused person. You need to seriously step away and think about your beliefs and theorys because you are very mixed up. Never met an anti-immigrant socialist libertarian before. There are 3oxymorans in there. 2 is normally impressive but 3 is a record.




Starcraftmazter said:


> How pathetic of an argument are you trying to mount, if you are forced to compare Australia to the worst countries in the world when it comes to freedoms - just to try and make the case that we have some? Thank you for proving my point..




Yada yada blah blah, so Australia isnt all that bad you say but still pretty bad, so what is your ideal country where freedom and liberty is a beacon of light. After all Australia is a quasi communist state, right? We are all slaves but we dont know it, like the Matrix, right?




Starcraftmazter said:


> How about the freedom to do and say as we please, not be the target of government spying, freedom to live without being taxed for things we don't need and for wars we don't support, not have to live in the fear of being labelled a terrorist for some arbitrary reason, have a government that actually cares about it's citizens and protects their freedoms as opposed to selling them out if USA says so.




You have the first part, tell me what is the government doing to stop you doing something or anything as you please? Have you been spied on by the government personally or labbeled a terrorist? What freedom dont you have anymore and please give some concreate examples not some populist, internet rambing nonesense.

Also waiting for your Swiss explanation.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Can you explain exactly the mechanism by which mining activity wrecks both tourism and manufacturing?
> .




The very high AUD but you knew that already - AUD is a default investment in resources and China - Resources demand nosedives , so will our dollar - well im not a soothsayer , but that is how I would envision it ....

We are kind of victims of our own luck I guess .....


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Sure. A lot of constructions workers are losing their jobs, especially around Melbourne because of their mammoth overbuilding of property. The mining industry wants construction workers? No problem - have them move to the mining area and give them jobs!




The trouble is though most people dont want to move themselves and their family to North West Australia. Even if they have the skills (which is a big if)
So, then what? Are you going to forceably move them? Confiscate their property and any equity they have then ship them off to maintin your idealogical position? Just like 1930's Russia eh?


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## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

This is what the pro Rinehart camp aspire to-

A few of you would for purely selfish reasons like this resut Im thinking ?


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## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> The trouble is though most people dont want to move themselves and their family to North West Australia. Even if they have the skills (which is a big if)





You simply dont need "most" people - only some !

What skills would Aussie construction workers lack that foreign construction workers have ?

You seem hell bent on discrediting Australian worker abilities and ethics - its a very hollow empty flawed and simply wrong argument. Seen you have raised the point so many times can you provide us with some substance or proof that we as a nation are that unskilled and lazy ?


----------



## Julia (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> The very high AUD but you knew that already - AUD is a default investment in resources and China - Resources demand nosedives , so will our dollar - well im not a soothsayer , but that is how I would envision it ....
> 
> We are kind of victims of our own luck I guess .....




OK, so are you concluding that if demand from China slows significantly and the boom is no longer a boom, the dollar falls, both tourism and manufacturing will therefore recover?


----------



## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> Seriously, do you even read what i write? Am I suggesting we collectivise the country? People get paid in wheat and suger? No, they are enumerated by cash which contributes to the economy. Who owns the means of production. Shareholders which anyone can buy into if they have capital. Its called capitalism for a reason.




But what you suggest draws from communist ideology. I'm not saying everything in Australia is communist - merely that businesses being able to hire anyone from any country they want is akin to communism.

You can really dismiss any ideology if some things don't conform do how other countries using such ideologies operated in the past. For instance - you can't dismiss USA as a fascist state just because the government does not preach racial purity - given that everything else in the US resembles a fascist state.



jank said:


> Of course I cam claim these things, I am a taxpayer. Immigrants are taxpayers too you dope! Why should a person pay tax and then be refused services because they are not a natural born person of that nation state? There is a large waiting period for anyone wanting to work in this country if they want to claim any service. During that time a person who has worked will have made a huge net contribution in taxes to the state. So the period for me is almost 5 years, What should it be? 1,10? never???




Never is good. Again, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much of a problem if the government did not tax people so much and offer services to everyone.



jank said:


> So a person who enters the country at 18 or 5 or whatever, works all their lives and retires at 65 is not able to claim anything?  LOL, you are a seriously confused person. You need to seriously step away and think about your beliefs and theorys because you are very mixed up. Never met an anti-immigrant socialist libertarian before. There are 3oxymorans in there. 2 is normally impressive but 3 is a record.




Again - if the federal government didn't steal money from people through taxation and offer services equally to all, then I would not have such a big problem with immigration - but otherwise it is simply unfair.

If you came here when you were 5 then I think it's fine, so long as your parents payed taxes to pay for the services available to you.

However I am against any welfare for the aged, so I don't care even if someone was born in Australia - they don't deserve a cent just because they are old and out of work. However given that's not the case - it is another example of major problems with immigration. The older someone is when they come to Australia, the less super they will be able to save, the more money taxpayers will have to give them upon retirement. Given we have a massive problem with this already in Australia - immigrants just make it worse.



jank said:


> Yada yada blah blah, so Australia isnt all that bad you say but still pretty bad, so what is your ideal country where freedom and liberty is a beacon of light. After all Australia is a quasi communist state, right? We are all slaves but we dont know it, like the Matrix, right?




I mentioned Switzerland. Federal tax of 1%, tiny federal government, never goes to war with anyone, very strong civil liberties and freedoms, direct democracy. You will never hear about censorship in Switzerland.

Australia is not "not that bad", it is pretty bad. Just because it's not the worst country when it comes to freedoms and liberties, is no good reason to celebrate. Australia doesn't even protect journalists' rights to not reveal sources.



jank said:


> You have the first part, tell me what is the government doing to stop you doing something or anything as you please? Have you been spied on by the government personally or labbeled a terrorist? What freedom dont you have anymore and please give some concreate examples not some populist, internet rambing nonesense.




I already mentioned many examples. For one, we almost had state enforced censorship in Australia, and there's a good chance we still will. For another, Australia has the broadest terrorism definition in the world:

From Criminal Code Act, division 100


> the action is done or the threat is made with the intention of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause;




It is mandatory in Australia to search electronic devices for people entering the country, which is a gross infringement of peoples' rights.

Australia also has agencies like ASIO who no doubt spy on it's citizens. And there is no doubt that Australia shares information about it's citizens with other countries like USA.

Australia has failed to protect it's citizens - people like David Hicks and Julian Assange from foreign fascist powers arbitrarily prosecuting them for political reasons with the cover of "terrorism".

Australia has failed to be a neutral country, and has wasted taxpayer dollars to make Australian citizens targets by invading countries on the other side of the world, which have nothing to do with Australia.

Australian governments constantly bow down to foreign corporate powers and steal their citizens' rights when it comes to various copyright laws and protections. ACTA is one good example of this, as the Australian government was all too happy to deny it's people the rights to even use Internet at the wish of foreign companies.

Even now, there exist crazy legislations which prohibit people like me from playing DVD and Bluray movies on our computers, simply because we choose to use open source software. Even the US has exceptions for cases like this in their DMA laws - but Australia does not, making ordinary daily activities illegal.

In fact, until several years ago, it was literally illegal to put any music on your mp3 player until the government finally scrapped the law involved. Why didn't they pull their heads out of their arses and question the law in the first place instead of passing it so willingly? They continue to propagate terrorist acts against Australian citizens, taking away their rights and liberties, selling them out to foreign governments and corporations without a care in the world.



jank said:


> Also waiting for your Swiss explanation.




Explaining what?




jank said:


> The trouble is though most people dont want to move themselves and their family to North West Australia. Even if they have the skills (which is a big if)
> So, then what? Are you going to forceably move them? Confiscate their property and any equity they have then ship them off to maintin your idealogical position? Just like 1930's Russia eh?




What do you mean "don't want to move"? If they can't get a job where they currently live, then they have no choice!


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> You have the first part, tell me what is the government doing to stop you doing something or anything as you please? Have you been spied on by the government personally or labbeled a terrorist? What freedom dont you have anymore and please give some concreate examples not some populist, internet rambing nonesense.
> 
> Also waiting for your Swiss explanation.




I know you are new to this forum jank, but I suggest you take Julia's advice. 



> Asking for a rational explanation of SCM's rants is an exercise in futility



.


----------



## numbercruncher (29 May 2012)

Julia said:


> OK, so are you concluding that if demand from China slows significantly and the boom is no longer a boom, the dollar falls, both tourism and manufacturing will therefore recover?





If that demand is not then picked up from elsewhere then it stands to reason that that is as it _could_ play out. Like I said im no clairvoyant or soothsayer ..... Just a bloke sharing an opinion ...

The other industries cant recover overnight there has to be a serious time lag - but the AUD could certainly fall rapidly imho - already off alot from its peak -

You would certainly see team Rinehart have a change of heart of the availability of skilled local labour if the AUD halved huh  - those pesky foreigners would all of a sudden be expensive and her patriotic desire to employ Locals would enter a renaissance period


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> You simply dont need "most" people - only some !
> 
> What skills would Aussie construction workers lack that foreign construction workers have ?
> 
> You seem hell bent on discrediting Australian worker abilities and ethics - its a very hollow empty flawed and simply wrong argument. Seen you have raised the point so many times can you provide us with some substance or proof that we as a nation are that unskilled and lazy ?




yes, and the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Australians employed in mining projects means that there is a serious shortage of skilled australians now therefore they have to look off-shore. I dont form my opinion from hear say or gossip down the pub.
On the last point, I never said that so dont put words in my mouth.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> But what you suggest draws from communist ideology. I'm not saying everything in Australia is communist - merely that businesses being able to hire anyone from any country they want is akin to communism.!




My gosh! Businesses are now practicing something that is akin to communism Oxymoronan number 4.
They clearly cannot hire just anyone, they can only hire people with skills to match the requirements. Clearly that is not everyone.



Starcraftmazter said:


> You can really dismiss any ideology if some things don't conform do how other countries using such ideologies operated in the past. For instance - you can't dismiss USA as a fascist state just because the government does not preach racial purity - given that everything else in the US resembles a fascist state.!




Well along with the fact you dont know what communism is, you dont know what Fasicm is either.

_Fascism ( /ˈfÃ¦ʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics_

One thing I cannot stand is people on the internet using big words yet fail to understand the true meaning and philosophy behind them. Stop reading the internet and read some books, start with Hannah Arendt.







Starcraftmazter said:


> Never is good. Again, I wouldn't have anywhere near as much of a problem if the government did not tax people so much and offer services to everyone.!




Wow, never. Fair enough but unless you are an indiginous Australian then do you realise that comment to be very ironic?




Starcraftmazter said:


> Again - if the federal government didn't steal money from people through taxation and offer services equally to all, then I would not have such a big problem with immigration - but otherwise it is simply unfair.!




In your opinion.



Starcraftmazter said:


> If you came here when you were 5 then I think it's fine, so long as your parents payed taxes to pay for the services available to you.
> 
> However I am against any welfare for the aged, so I don't care even if someone was born in Australia - they don't deserve a cent just because they are old and out of work. However given that's not the case - it is another example of major problems with immigration. The older someone is when they come to Australia, the less super they will be able to save, the more money taxpayers will have to give them upon retirement. Given we have a massive problem with this already in Australia - immigrants just make it worse.!




You do realise there is an age cap on skilled migration for exactly this reason?




Starcraftmazter said:


> I mentioned Switzerland. Federal tax of 1%, tiny federal government, never goes to war with anyone, very strong civil liberties and freedoms, direct democracy. You will never hear about censorship in Switzerland.!




The Swiss have a long history of isolationism going back to the middle ages. Federal tax maybe be 1% but thpanacea lots of other taxes. It is not a pancea. For example they have just passed a law banning Minaret's due to increased migration from islamic nations. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minare..._the_referendum_and_implementation_of_the_ban



Starcraftmazter said:


> Australia is not "not that bad", it is pretty bad. Just because it's not the worst country when it comes to freedoms and liberties, is no good reason to celebrate. Australia doesn't even protect journalists' rights to not reveal sources.!




Yea pretty bad must mean 2 best in the world in terms of HDI index only beaten by Norway. (Swiss in 13th place)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

In terms of press freedom Australia doesnt score so highly only 30th out of 179 countries. (still in the top 20%)

In terms of economic freedom Australia comes 3rd after Singapore and HK again beating the Swiss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Moving to the democracy index Australia comes in 6th again beating the Swiss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Australia are 6th in the economic freedom of the world index. Swiss beats you this time by 1 place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World_Index

So there you have it, Australia must be a desperate place to live. You strike me as someone who as actually never been outside of the place and seen what other countries are like. Have you seen real poverty, no electricity, no hospitals, no running water type of poverty? Have you been to a country and rarely have see old people because they are all dead? I have been to all continents in the world apart from the south pole and have seen plenty of it. Australia and the west in comparison are spoilt.



Starcraftmazter said:


> I already mentioned many examples. For one, we almost had state enforced censorship in Australia, and there's a good chance we still will. For another, Australia has the broadest terrorism definition in the world:
> 
> From Criminal Code Act, division 100
> 
> ...




I have been in and out many a times to Australia have had never had my laptop or ipod "searched" Mandatory it is not



Starcraftmazter said:


> Australia also has agencies like ASIO who no doubt spy on it's citizens. And there is no doubt that Australia shares information about it's citizens with other countries like USA.
> !



Pretty much all countries have these agencies. Get back to me when they are spying on you because of our beliefs or race. Then arresting you and putting you in jail because of the things you say. If this has happened then you must have lots of proof of it.



Starcraftmazter said:


> Australia has failed to protect it's citizens - people like David Hicks and Julian Assange from foreign fascist powers arbitrarily prosecuting them for political reasons with the cover of "terrorism".!




I actually admire Assange but if he thinks that he can steal classified secrets from the US government and get away with it he is kidding himself.



Starcraftmazter said:


> Australia has failed to be a neutral country, and has wasted taxpayer dollars to make Australian citizens targets by invading countries on the other side of the world, which have nothing to do with Australia.!




Since when have they failed? If that is the case then Australia has failed to be a neutral country since the first world war. 



Starcraftmazter said:


> Australian governments constantly bow down to foreign corporate powers and steal their citizens' rights when it comes to various copyright laws and protections. ACTA is one good example of this, as the Australian government was all too happy to deny it's people the rights to even use Internet at the wish of foreign companies.!




Use the internet? They are going to ban the internet now because someone told them to? Please!



Starcraftmazter said:


> Even now, there exist crazy legislations which prohibit people like me from playing DVD and Bluray movies on our computers, simply because we choose to use open source software. Even the US has exceptions for cases like this in their DMA laws - but Australia does not, making ordinary daily activities illegal.!




?? Are you talking about copyright and regional codes? I suppose this is Australias fault too. Damm those studios wanting to protect their IP.



Starcraftmazter said:


> In fact, until several years ago, it was literally illegal to put any music on your mp3 player until the government finally scrapped the law involved. Why didn't they pull their heads out of their arses and question the law in the first place instead of passing it so willingly? They continue to propagate terrorist acts against Australian citizens, taking away their rights and liberties, selling them out to foreign governments and cimprisoned without a care in the woTerroristOTE].!




How many people have been killed, mamed, tortured, imprisioned, charged with the above?
Terroist acts? Like blowing up buses or planes or buildings? The Australian government does this, to people who have ipods?
Look there may have been poor legislation but the tone of your posts totally discredits your arguements an makes you look like a loon. A crazy crazy loon.







Starcraftmazter said:


> What do you mean "don't want to move"? Iforce ablyn't get a job where they currently live, then they have no choice!




So you think they should be forceably moved? Fufor cableing everyone else that the government violates your rights on a daily basis yet at a drop of a hat would forcable move entire families to areas where they dont want to live. 
The term do as I say, not as I do comes to mind.


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## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraft, I dont doubt your passion but you are seriously misguided and clouded in your views and judgment.
You say you are a libertarian so go read up about it then. Read some of Hayek, Rand, Freedman. Read some books on political theory. Hell read some books from the opposite point of view. Keynes, Stieglitz, Krugman, Marx and so on.

STOP reading the internet conspiracy forums. It will cloud your mind. Form your own opinion of course but have a map!

I wont be responding to you again unless your arguement is clear, concise and framed in the terms of reference.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

More books.

The Republic - Plato
The Bible - Multiple authors
Magna Carta - Multiple authors
Leviathan - Hobbes
95 Theses - Luther 
Social Contract and Discourses - Rousseau
The Prince - Machiavelli
Vindiciae contra tyrannos - "Stephen Junius Brutus"
Elements of the Philosophy of Right - Hegel
Beyond Good and Evil - Nietzche
A house divided against itself cannot stand - Lincoln 
Mein Kampf - Hitler
Schuman Declaration - Schuman
Strategies of Containment - Gaddis


----------



## McLovin (29 May 2012)

jank, you're wasting your time. SCM lives in his own world.


----------



## Glen48 (29 May 2012)

No jobs going at FMG  to day for fitters/welders.

The yanks have the right idea about income tax get the citizens to pay it even when there is no law to say they have to.


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## rumpole (29 May 2012)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-...ment-investigates-low-pay-allegations/4040162

Chinese mine workers allegedly being ripped off

Updated May 29, 2012 16:59:34
Map: Karratha 6714

The Immigration Department has confirmed it is investigating allegations Chinese workers on a West Australian iron ore project are being paid half the wage of their Australian counterparts.

The construction union says it has complained repeatedly about the treatment of the workers at CITIC Pacific's Sino Iron project at Cape Preston near Karratha.

The union's West Australian state secretary, Mick Buchan, says the workers are in a vulnerable position.

"The market rate for a non-tradesperson on that job, given the location, the remoteness, and the high-risk work they undertake would be around the $120,000 to $140,000 mark.

"We've heard these workers are paid half those rates.

"The feeling that I get is when the Australian workers get too close to the Chinese, or they make them accepted into Australia, bring them along to barbeques or take them fishing, either those workers get removed from the project or other influences come where the Chinese workers keep their distance from it."

The union's national secretary, Dave Noonan, says there needs to be a proper investigation into the matter to ensure workers are not being ripped off and that Australian labour standards are not being undermined.

"There are real and credible reports that have been put to the Immigration Department about this, and their lack of action on the matter is of great concern," he said.

The Department of Immigration says it will not comment further while its investigation is underway.

CITIC Pacific Mining says it has cooperated fully with the department during its recent audit of the project and will continue to do so.

The company says it requires that all contractors and sub-contractors on the project comply with all state and federal statutory requirements.


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## Glen48 (29 May 2012)

Maybe they are on 228.5 visa's  so only need to be paid 1/2..


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

There we go - the smoking gun, proof if proof was needed that this has nothing to do with any "labour shortage".


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## Glen48 (29 May 2012)

And here why Gina wanted to get on the Fairfax board maybe:


Fairfax media is planning to relocate production of its regional newspapers to New Zealand.

The proposed changes will affect a total of 66 staff, a statement released today by the Media, Ethics & Arts Alliance (MEAA) said.

It said the staff would be offered voluntary redundancies or redeployment, but some staff may also be forced into redundancy.

The affected newspapers include the Illawarra Mercury, Newcastle Herald and seven associated community titles including the Lake Times, Kiama Independent, Newcastle Star, Myall Coast Nota, Port Stephens Examiner and Lakes Mail.

Workers were told about the plans this afternoon and Fairfax has announced the move on the papers' websites.

Fairfax says the changes are part of a "wider company strategy to pursue operational efficiencies while strengthening the focus on audience growth and producing quality content".

It says no reporting or photographic positions would be affected.

But the MEAA has rejected Fairfax's proposal.

It believes relocating key editorial staff offshore will only inhibit the newspapers' ability to tell quality local news.

"This is a very dangerous step for Fairfax to be taking," MEAA federal secretary Chris Warren said.

"There has been no experience in Australia of companies making the decision to offshore such a central part of the newspaper and this can only destroy the vital nexus between the newsroom and the community.

"Newspapers are not just the product of photographers or journalists – sub-editors are the heart of the newsroom, with vast institutional and organisational memories, and an intimate knowledge of their community.

"It is our belief that the entire staff should always be embedded in the community to enable the newspaper to tell the local story accurately.

"This is an alarming precedent that could be replicated on other mastheads like the Sydney Morning Herald or The Age and should be stopped before it's too late."


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## noco (29 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-...ment-investigates-low-pay-allegations/4040162
> 
> Chinese mine workers allegedly being ripped off
> 
> ...




Is the reason these migrant workers are paid less is perhaps because  they are given free board, lodgings and other benefits which the unions would not dare reveal?


----------



## Julia (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> However I am against any welfare for the aged, so I don't care even if someone was born in Australia - they don't deserve a cent just because they are old and out of work.



Of course not.  Instead you have old, frail people sweeping the streets on their walking frames.   



> I mentioned Switzerland. Federal tax of 1%, tiny federal government, never goes to war with anyone, very strong civil liberties and freedoms, direct democracy. You will never hear about censorship in Switzerland.



May I politely repeat my offer to help you pack?
You keep rabbiting on about how ghastly Australia is and how wonderful is Switzerland.  I cannot imagine, therefore, why you are still here.  We would be thrilled to encourage your export to Switzerland.  (Whether the Swiss would be equally delighted about your arrival is perhaps another matter.)


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

Glen48 said:


> And here why Gina wanted to get on the Fairfax board maybe:
> 
> 
> Fairfax media is planning to relocate production of its regional newspapers to New Zealand.




Aha! Shows her ugly face yet again. Clearly the only thing she's interested in is offshoring aussie jobs - mining and other industries!



noco said:


> Is the reason these migrant workers are paid less is perhaps because  they are given free board, lodgings and other benefits which the unions would not dare reveal?




Doesn't that happen with all fifo workers?



Julia said:


> Of course not.  Instead you have old, frail people sweeping the streets on their walking frames.




They had their entire damn lives to save for their retirement! Why should I or any taxpayer be liable for their failure? You realise that is completely unsustainable as Australia's dependency ratio plummets over the coming decades? If only you had any idea of the economics involved.



Julia said:


> May I politely repeat my offer to help you pack?
> You keep rabbiting on about how ghastly Australia is and how wonderful is Switzerland.  I cannot imagine, therefore, why you are still here.  We would be thrilled to encourage your export to Switzerland.  (Whether the Swiss would be equally delighted about your arrival is perhaps another matter.)




You must have no life experience if you think moving from country to country is that easy.


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## qldfrog (29 May 2012)

moXJO said:


> Regarding lack of advertisement I have to agree, although I think a lot has to do with the mines using recruitment agencies? I think the combination of tightarse mine management and unreasonable union demands has created a situation where they no longer train or hire in house if it can be avoided. Pure speculation on my part




+1 and not speculation..I am in the mining industry:
no training/support for specialist jobs (surveyors, geol., mining engineers but cry  for a "skill shortage" after poaching the neighbours' workforce, the reason we will see as per canada and major mining countries a huge number of retiring mining specialists in the coming years is that noone could find a job in mining for nearly 15y..so a huge gap left but who is to be blame?
And in any case, the "skilled" workers imported on these visa will be construction trademen,not engineers

a scam and all I can see here  is the right wing complaining about the dole wasters with no knowledge of the actual mining job market while the left or what is left of it  complains per principle and follows the unions motto;
With the unions having destroyed this country with our current government,  and the big miners screwing Australia with a pseudo mining tax which will not cost them much and O/S workers arrangments: who is going to speak in our name and for the best interest of this country and citizen?
Could any of the two sides there take a minute to be really informed and think about this country instead of raging on their own ideology..
This whole thread is disheartening.
Good night


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## MrBurns (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> They had their entire damn lives to save for their retirement! Why should I or any taxpayer be liable for their failure? You realise that is completely unsustainable as Australia's dependency ratio plummets over the coming decades? If only you had any idea of the economics involved.




Nice ideaology.

I had no idea there was a branch of the Nazi party here in Oz.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> I had no idea there was a branch of the Nazi party here in Oz.




More like the party for rational economic governance. Of course I don't expect all the old people here to understand that.


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## Julia (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> You must have no life experience if you think moving from country to country is that easy.



Oh, the irony on the 'no life experience'.
Tell us, SCM, just what the difficulties are that make moving out of Australia to the country of your dreams so immense.

Otherwise, I'll be concluding you're just a frightened kid who doesn't have the guts to leave these safe shores.  Way easier to stay here and rubbish Australia.


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## MrBurns (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> More like the party for rational economic governance. Of course I don't expect all the old people here to understand that.




Thats rubbish, what are you going to do, let older people just die on the street ?

Tell you what, there's a lot that goes on in a life that might lead you anywhere, you'll find out one day if you last that long.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Oh, the irony on the 'no life experience'.
> Tell us, SCM, just what the difficulties are that make moving out of Australia to the country of your dreams so immense.
> 
> Otherwise, I'll be concluding you're just a frightened kid who doesn't have the guts to leave these safe shores.  Way easier to stay here and rubbish Australia.




Oh **** you've got me. Although now that I think about it, maybe it has something to do with....language, family, friends, employment, connections and transporting my crap around the planet 



MrBurns said:


> Thats rubbish, what are you going to do, let older people just die on the street ?




Pretty much all old people have property they can sell and put themselves in a home. Even better if they retire in some cheap country so as to not strain Australia's failing healthcare system. They should think of their children (and grandchildren).


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## MrBurns (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Oh **** you've got me. Although now that I think about it, maybe it has something to do with....language, family, friends, employment, connections and transporting my crap around the planet




Sounds to me like you cant look after yourself now, imagne how you'll be when you're old, oh yeah you can sell all your crap and move into a home.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Sounds to me like you cant look after yourself now, imagne how you'll be when you're old, oh yeah you can sell all your crap and move into a home.




Can't look after myself in what precise way that I'm not looking after myself now?

By the time I'm old, assuming civilisation hasn't collapsed by then, I'll have enough gold saved up to last me 10 lifetimes.


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## MrBurns (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Can't look after myself in what precise way that I'm not looking after myself now?
> 
> By the time I'm old, assuming civilisation hasn't collapsed by then, I'll have enough gold saved up to last me 10 lifetimes.




Well you cant seem to be able to organise a move overseas where you might be happier for a start. I can tell you life holds challenges way beyond that.

You've no idea where life will lead you, you can plan but nothing's guaranteed.


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## Muschu (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> More like the party for rational economic governance. Of course I don't expect all the old people here to understand that.




Is it fair to ask how old is old and how old you are?  I gather you claim life experience but that may also warrant definition.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Well you cant seem to be able to organise a move overseas where you might be happier for a start. I can tell you life holds challenges way beyond that.
> 
> You've no idea where life will lead you, you can plan but nothing's guaranteed.




Organising a move is simple. Starting life anew is not. And I do love to plan.


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## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> You must have no life experience if you think moving from country to country is that easy.




LOL, it has gotten alot easier thanks to Rina.

Anyway, to the point it is not that hard, if I can do it. Then again it might be rude wake up call for you.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

Muschu said:


> Is it fair to ask how old is old and how old you are?  I gather you claim life experience but that may also warrant definition.




I'm 22, old is old enough to care about old people.



jank said:


> LOL, it has gotten alot easier thanks to Rina.




Haha, indeed!! Fancy that, being paid to go to work in another country for much more money than you can earn at home.


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## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Oh **** you've got me. Although now that I think about it, maybe it has something to do with....language, family, friends, employment, connections and transporting my crap around the planet




But Australia is rubbish so just go!!!




Starcraftmazter said:


> Pretty much all old people have property they can sell and put themselves in a home. Even better if they retire in some cheap country so as to not strain Australia's failing healthcare system. They should think of their children (and grandchildren).




OK, so they should move to another country and be a strain on another countries health care system? Yet before you are complaining about immigrants being a strain on the health care system, now OAP's are a strain even though most would have worked all their lives paying taxes to fund said health care system. My should just kill themselves and not be a strain on limited resources? Or maybe the state can implement such a policy. It makes economic sense right?


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## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Organising a move is simple. Starting life anew is not. And I do love to plan.




Have you ever worked abroad for any period of time? Hell have you ever been abroad apart maybe from a boozed up trip to Bali.
Your 22 so tbh you don't have a clue, I didn't at 22. When you are 32 you will have a totally different outlook on life, when the big bad world hits.

Take my advice, read some books and travel, then form your opinion. Your like a jack in the box willing to give it a guff but failing to understand what exactly you are saying. Thinking is under-rated these days especially by the younger generation. Just sitting there thinking about life or a problem isn't done anymore, for some reason talking $hit holds more value and is deemed to be a sign of knowing something. Maybe its to do with the internet and the short attention span of the youth. Your 22, feck you haven't even seen a proper recession.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 May 2012)

jank said:


> OK, so they should move to another country and be a strain on another countries health care system?




Why in the name of God would I or anyone in Australia care about any other country's healthcare system?



jank said:


> Yet before you are complaining about immigrants being a strain on the health care system, now OAP's are a strain even though most would have worked all their lives paying taxes to fund said health care system.




Right, so maybe old Australians should immigrate to take the strain off our healthcare system? Makes perfect sense. Did I tell you how all Sydney clinics are stuffed full of old people? If you don't want to wait a week for an appointment, forget about bulk-billing. I also don't see the relevance of having payed taxes in the past and getting services into the future in return. Last time I checked, government spends it's revenue into healthcare (and all other services) year to year - they don't set it aside.

Which is yet another reason why income tax should be abolished and replaced with a full user-pays system.



jank said:


> My should just kill themselves and not be a strain on limited resources? Or maybe the state can implement such a policy. It makes economic sense right?




I for one am a proud supporter of euthanasia. It's amazing that people who don't want to live in this world anymore are arbitrarily not allowed to end their own life.

I would support any retired person who has the money to fund their life and healthcare and does not rely on stealing it from others, looks after their grandchildren to allow their children to live more productive lives, and provides other benefits to society - however those who do not do anything productive within the economy and are a bottomless pit for taxpayer money....I take a real issue with them - they are a net drain on the economy with no further purpose. 

Everyone should be ranked based on their present contribution to the economy - and if there is any taxation, then those with the greatest benefit to the economy should get most of the services.


----------



## jank (29 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Why in the name of God would I or anyone in Australia care about any other country's healthcare system?




You are missing the point, you are complaining and advocating the exact same thing. Once people are not a strain on the tax base you don't care where they end up, thailand or six feet under.



Starcraftmazter said:


> Right, so maybe old Australians should immigrate to take the strain off our healthcare system? Makes perfect sense. Did I tell you how all Sydney clinics are stuffed full of old people? If you don't want to wait a week for an appointment, forget about bulk-billing. I also don't see the relevance of having payed taxes in the past and getting services into the future in return. Last time I checked, government spends it's revenue into healthcare (and all other services) year to year - they don't set it aside.
> 
> Which is yet another reason why income tax should be abolished and replaced with a full user-pays system.




Maybe you should put your hand in your pocket and get private health insurance or are you too cheap? Expecting everyone else to pay for your needs but telling every else to sod off somewhere else. Your a libertarian right, so go fund your own health care and get insurance.



Starcraftmazter said:


> I for one am a proud supporter of euthanasia. It's amazing that people who don't want to live in this world anymore are arbitrarily not allowed to end their own life.
> 
> I would support any retired person who has the money to fund their life and healthcare and does not rely on stealing it from others, looks after their grandchildren to allow their children to live more productive lives, and provides other benefits to society - however those who do not do anything productive within the economy and are a bottomless pit for taxpayer money....I take a real issue with them - they are a net drain on the economy with no further purpose.




So? What would you do about it?



Starcraftmazter said:


> Everyone should be ranked based on their present contribution to the economy - and if there is any taxation, then those with the greatest benefit to the economy should get most of the services.




What if someone who contributes tens thousands of dollars to the tax base loses their job. As they are no longer contributing, they get nothing right? So by your logic, Gina should get 10,0000x time the services as the average worker, right?


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## Starcraftmazter (30 May 2012)

jank said:


> You are missing the point, you are complaining and advocating the exact same thing. Once people are not a strain on the tax base you don't care where they end up, thailand or six feet under.




Yes, but I don't live in Thailand - so why should I care? If Thailand has a problem with Australian immigrants, they can always change their laws. I just don't see how it relates to me as an Australian.



jank said:


> Maybe you should put your hand in your pocket and get private health insurance or are you too cheap? Expecting everyone else to pay for your needs but telling every else to sod off somewhere else. Your a libertarian right, so go fund your own health care and get insurance.




What exactly makes you think I don't already have private healthcare? Either way, I do not use healthcare services, because I am not an old sickly person. I don't even get sick thanks to a lifestyle of healthy eating and exercise. Maybe I should get some of my tax back? And what did you mean everyone else paying for my needs? I'm a taxpayer myself, and as I just mentioned, I use a disproportionately small (in fact non-existent) amount of healthcare resources. Hmmm, I do wonder who uses disproportionately more than anyone else? Do you care to guess?



jank said:


> So? What would you do about it?




Remove all welfare and healthcare.



jank said:


> What if someone who contributes tens thousands of dollars to the tax base loses their job. As they are no longer contributing, they get nothing right? So by your logic, Gina should get 10,0000x time the services as the average worker, right?




Yes, they should get nothing. If they had a job, they must have savings to draw upon.

Gina provides a net deficit to the economy, because she imports workers who put strain on our 3rd world infrastructure and healthcare systems, while providing nothing in return. I would love to export her worthless fat **** to Thailand - or preferably North Korea. I'm sure there's lots of mining there to do for her.


----------



## jank (30 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Yes, but I don't live in Thailand - so why should I care? If Thailand has a problem with Australian immigrants, they can always change their laws. I just don't see how it relates to me as an Australian.




The point is lost on you. Anyway, it would not make sense for millions of OAP to move to another country much as you would like them to.




Starcraftmazter said:


> What exactly makes you think I don't already have private healthcare? Either way, I do not use healthcare services, because I am not an old sickly person. I don't even get sick thanks to a lifestyle of healthy eating and exercise. Maybe I should get some of my tax back? And what did you mean everyone else paying for my needs? I'm a taxpayer myself, and as I just mentioned, I use a disproportionately small (in fact non-existent) amount of healthcare resources. Hmmm, I do wonder who uses disproportionately more than anyone else? Do you care to guess?



 Well you obviously have experience waiting in a clinic full of oap's when you are bulk billing, go to a private clinic and you will be seen there and then no problem. 
Yes, you pay into it now, you get it back when you are old and/or sick. I too believe in a small welfare state but you are going off the cliff with your ideas.



Starcraftmazter said:


> Remove all welfare and healthcare.




So you must like Ayrn Rand then. Fair enough. 




Starcraftmazter said:


> Yes, they should get nothing. If they had a job, they must have savings to draw upon.





OK, therefore nobody would pay tax or indeed nobody should pay tax. 



Starcraftmazter said:


> Gina provides a net deficit to the economy, because she imports workers who put strain on our 3rd world infrastructure and healthcare systems, while providing nothing in return. I would love to export her worthless fat **** to Thailand - or preferably North Korea. I'm sure there's lots of mining there to do for her.




LOL, this takes the biscuit. I thought you were getting somewhere now but you revert to type. She has probably paid billions in tax over her lifetime and would be a easily a net contributor to the tax base. These migrants are still paying tax so the exchequer wont lose out at all. Just because you have a bee in your bonnet about it doesn't change those facts. The richest in society are the ones the shoulder the tax burden. Always has been.

By the way i love you way you spin out of an arguement, Gina is Australias richest person and by your very own admission she should get the most back in terms of services from the state yet you cant even admit it!!! Funny stuff!

You are a funny guy, you hate the government, hate welfare, hate old people, hate migrants, hate rich people and poor people. You are just a hater and a spoofer.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (30 May 2012)

jank said:


> The point is lost on you. Anyway, it would not make sense for millions of OAP to move to another country much as you would like them to.




I don't really care what they do, so long as they don't get my tax money.



jank said:


> Well you obviously have experience waiting in a clinic full of oap's when you are bulk billing, go to a private clinic and you will be seen there and then no problem.




I didn't wait, I walked in, saw the situation, and walked out.



jank said:


> Yes, you pay into it now, you get it back when you are old and/or sick. I too believe in a small welfare state but you are going off the cliff with your ideas.




That's completely stupid. I didn't ask the government for any assistance when I get old - so why should I pay for old people now? I know for a fact there will be ZERO assistance for the aged by the time I retire, because no amount of taxes in the world would be able to pay for it long before I am at retirement age.



jank said:


> So you must like Ayrn Rand then. Fair enough.




I don't know nor care who that is.



jank said:


> K, therefore nobody would pay tax or indeed nobody should pay tax.




Correct.



jank said:


> LOL, this takes the biscuit. I thought you were getting somewhere now but you revert to type. She has probably paid billions in tax over her lifetime




You are speculating. I don't much like speculators. Either give me concrete figures, or nothing at all.



jank said:


> and would be a easily a net contributor to the tax base.




But a net debtor to the economy.



jank said:


> These migrants are still paying tax so the exchequer wont lose out at all.




The tax would still be paid had she used local workers - and more tax would be paid, because she'd have to pay a fair wage. On top of that, existing government services would not need to be strained by unnecessary people within the country.



jank said:


> Just because you have a bee in your bonnet about it doesn't change those facts. The richest in society are the ones the shoulder the tax burden. Always has been.




First of all; no - Singapore, Switzerland. Second of all, what does shouldering the tax burden have to do with importing foreign workers? Probably the fact that it will result in less tax collections against more government services.



jank said:


> By the way i love you way you spin out of an arguement, Gina is Australias richest person and by your very own admission she should get the most back in terms of services from the state yet you cant even admit it!!! Funny stuff!




How? I never said the services must relate to wealth - but to the *amount of tax payed*. Convenient of you to ignore that.

And government services do not include importing foreign workers by the way. Maybe they should buy her a treadmill or something? I'm all up for that.



jank said:


> You are a funny guy, you hate the government, hate welfare, hate old people, hate migrants, hate rich people and poor people. You are just a hater and a spoofer.




I don't hate any of the demographics nor institutions you mentioned. I only hate those who take and don't give.

If there was no welfare and public healthcare, no wars, no government intervention in the markets - then I would love the Australian government, and have no problem with any immigrant, old person or whoever else presently leeches off my hard work and that of others.


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## noco (30 May 2012)

I think SCM is one of Bob Brown's advanced ALIEN crew ready to change the world and how we live.
More likely he is now living in LA,LA LAND.
Get ready folks for SCM to become World Vice Presdent  of the new World Government.
Dream on young man. You have a lot of living to do and a lot of lessons to learn.
You are 22 and I am 82.
I was in uniform when you were in liquid form.


----------



## joea (30 May 2012)

It is interesting to note some of the comments throughout this forum.
Actually I am interested in some of the comments from SCG, because of his age and the thinking of that age group.
Also some of his comments are possible, or could I say justly probably in the future.

No doubt he has internal strength as well, as he is certainly dishing out as good as he gets.
Sometimes post are written in haste or anger. Maybe some of us could count to ten before getting fired up.

So with migrants I foresee a lot of discussions by government and companies to see how the importing of these workers fit in with our society.
What amuses me, is that there are many workers here on that exact visa already, and not a peep from anybody about it.

I personally see the unions bosses are just "sooking" about the exercise because of possible loss of union members. Also the unions are attempting to get a toe hold in the mining sector. It appears they have put 
Gillard in her place, and in the same time exposed the engine room of the Gillard government.
Just watch the unions pursue the safety aspect of integrating workers. Especially if they cannot understand English. I have not seen many media exploits by union officials that have not mentioned safety.

Anyway I will sign off, check the market and watch the rain come down againnnnn!
cheers joea


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## jank (30 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I didn't wait, I walked in, saw the situation, and walked out.




Why didn't you go to a private clinic if you had health insurance? Unless you wanted an excuse to get angry. 




Starcraftmazter said:


> That's completely stupid. I didn't ask the government for any assistance when I get old - so why should I pay for old people now? I know for a fact there will be ZERO assistance for the aged by the time I retire, because no amount of taxes in the world would be able to pay for it long before I am at retirement age.




You mean you won't. Learn to talk in the proper tense. Maybe those old people have built up a lifetime of credit with the government in the form of taxes. Instead of giving out in an internet forum go do something about it, Join a political party. Your views would go down very well in China. By the way the Swiss have very generous state pensions, so that's another country off your list. We have to live in the real world mate.




Starcraftmazter said:


> I don't know nor care who that is.




Nah, she is only probably the most influential author of libertarian thought and philosophy of the 20th century. She is also the founder of Objectivism  The two of you would see eye to eye on a lot of things.  Her book Atlas Shrugged is allegedly the 2nd most influential book in the United States Senate and Congress only behind the Bible, but sure it speaks volumes that a little kid like your self, instead of thinking about libertarian issues and the actual meaning behind this theory just spouts nonsense like a troll. Actually don't bother reading her stuff, it is clear your undeveloped mind could not possible comprehend what she writes abouts.

Your not a libertarian, your just a kid who doesn't like to pay taxes (welcome to life) and hates all people because they are leeches. Have you seen "There will be blood"? You remind me of the main character Daniel Plainview played by Daniel Day-Lewis. A person who just hates people. Very apt I think!




Starcraftmazter said:


> Correct.




Who will pay immigration officers? Police? Schools? Army? Roads? Transport?
Who will pay for the courts or rule of law? Do you want anarchy?




Starcraftmazter said:


> You are speculating. I don't much like speculators. Either give me concrete figures, or nothing at all.




No, you are speculating nonsense and I have disproved such nonsense before. Disprove me that she doesn't pay a large amount in tax.




Starcraftmazter said:


> But a net debtor to the economy.




Everybody therefore is a net debtor to the economy. Maybe we should all migrate and leave Australia to the birds and the trees. You are fecking crazy or a great troll.




Starcraftmazter said:


> The tax would still be paid had she used local workers - and more tax would be paid, because she'd have to pay a fair wage. On top of that, existing government services would not need to be strained by unnecessary people within the country.




I thought you were against tax, but now you want more tax, which is it!!
You do realise that one of the two most powerful things an economy can have to make itself stronger is a big movement of labour? Its one of the things that keeps Australia ticking over. Without it you would still be talking about the sheeps back bemoaning that Australia is missing out on the global economy. Look at NZ's economy, it cant keep up because of low inward migration and high emigration.




Starcraftmazter said:


> First of all; no - Singapore, Switzerland. Second of all, what does shouldering the tax burden have to do with importing foreign workers? Probably the fact that it will result in less tax collections against more government services.




LOL, a so called libertarian advocating Singapores system. They do have a very good standard of living and economic freedom in fairness. Tax's are generally low but it is a very autocratic system of government. Little press freedom, no political freedom, very little individual freedom, lots of things are banned. If you want to have a protest against the government you must get a permit which is almost always not given. Many things that are totally against the principles of libertarianism. You clearly do not think out anything you right. You see "low tax", or "isolationism" and think like a hormone crazed maniac, "yea, ill have some of that" without looking at the big picture
Have you even vistited the place, bet you havent, bet you still live with mama and papa.  I know lots of people that live there, many only stay 2-3 years and leave again. It is not that great a place to live long term. Been there myself countless times. Dull is not an understatement



Starcraftmazter said:


> How? I never said the services must relate to wealth - but to the *amount of tax payed*. Convenient of you to ignore that.




No, because she would have paid many more times taxes then the average person. Are you disputing this?



Starcraftmazter said:


> And government services do not include importing foreign workers by the way. Maybe they should buy her a treadmill or something? I'm all up for that.




Personal remarks are just a sign of your immaturity and your childishness. People in life will take you a lot more seriously if you cut it out. 





Starcraftmazter said:


> I don't hate any of the demographics nor institutions you mentioned. I only hate those who take and don't give.




I'm an immigrant who has paid taxes day one, yet I should be entitled to nothing, right?
A dog chasing his tail.



Starcraftmazter said:


> If there was no welfare and public healthcare, no wars, no government intervention in the markets - then I would love the Australian government, and have no problem with any immigrant, old person or whoever else presently leeches off my hard work and that of others.



What hard work? Your a ****ing trader! That isn't hard! There are thousands of other jobs that are harder then yours. You don't contribute anything other then some messily tax dollars to the economy. You sit in from of the computer and trade numbers hoping its goes up and down. You dont create jobs, you dont have a family, you have no one to look after. When you do, you will have a different outlook. 
Probably good that you sit in your room all day as I don't think you would survive in an office environment. There are people out there you know!


----------



## Trembling Hand (30 May 2012)

jank said:


> What hard work? Your a ****ing trader!
> ..
> You sit in from of the computer and trade numbers hoping its goes up and down.




No Jank you have that wrong.

He's a want-to-be trader.


----------



## tigerboi (30 May 2012)

back to the thread......

its all about wages you only have to listen to rineharts own words on the 

corporate video...

"high cost base structure"

thats boss code for we want to pay 3rd world wages...

the greed of this woman is untold.


----------



## Klogg (30 May 2012)

tigerboi said:


> back to the thread......
> 
> its all about wages you only have to listen to rineharts own words on the
> 
> ...




No, it's boss code for we don't want to pay $250k a year to get the qualified people here, because the majority of people on the eastern side of the country are too lazy to re-locate.

As far as I'm concerned, she's just trying to get a job done for the lowest amount possible. It's not her concern, nor her responsibility, to care for the rest of the country.

So long as she pays her taxes and works within government guidelines, then she's doing her part.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (30 May 2012)

jank said:


> Why didn't you go to a private clinic if you had health insurance? Unless you wanted an excuse to get angry.




When I last went to a clinic (quite a while ago), I didn't yet have private insurance. Also the fact that private clinics are very scare, and I fail to see why I have to travel to go to a clinic.



jank said:


> You mean you won't. Learn to talk in the proper tense.




Right now, when I am paying taxes, I am not asking the federal government to give me any services, nor will I ask in the future. Makes sense?



jank said:


> Maybe those old people have built up a lifetime of credit with the government in the form of taxes.




What exactly do you mean a lifetime of credit? Their tax money was SPENT it was SPENT ALREADY, the government DOES NOT PUT ASIDE TAX REVENUES FOR FUTURE SPENDING ON WELFARE. What is so hard about this to understand?



jank said:


> Instead of giving out in an internet forum go do something about it, Join a political party. Your views would go down very well in China. By the way the Swiss have very generous state pensions, so that's another country off your list. We have to live in the real world mate.




But they have lower taxes as well. Political parties never change anything, all Australian mainstream parties are absolute rubbish. Nothing but a bunch of corrupt puppets.



jank said:


> Nah, she is only




I repeat, I do not know *nor care* who she is.



jank said:


> Your not a libertarian




I didn't ask for your flawed and entitled opinions about my ideology.



jank said:


> your just a kid who doesn't like to pay taxes (welcome to life) and hates all people because they are leeches. Have you seen "There will be blood"? You remind me of the main character Daniel Plainview played by Daniel Day-Lewis. A person who just hates people. Very apt I think!




The lowest form of argument, you should be ashamed of yourself.



jank said:


> Who will pay immigration officers? Police? Schools? Army? Roads? Transport?
> Who will pay for the courts or rule of law? Do you want anarchy?




You seem completely oblivious to the existence of state and local governments.



jank said:


> No, you are speculating nonsense and I have disproved such nonsense before. Disprove me that she doesn't pay a large amount in tax.




Wtf, YOU made the claim, so YOU prove it.



jank said:


> Everybody therefore is a net debtor to the economy. Maybe we should all migrate and leave Australia to the birds and the trees. You are fecking crazy or a great troll.




Is everyone Gina? No.



jank said:


> I thought you were against tax, but now you want more tax, which is it!!




If you read my previous posts carefully, I clearly said IF there is any tax, THEN it should be used to provide services for people whom pay it most - not those who do not pay tax. Why do I have to remind you of the discussion? If you are incapable of remembering what is happening in a debate, then don't bother.



jank said:


> You do realise that one of the two most powerful things an economy can have to make itself stronger is a big movement of labour? Its one of the things that keeps Australia ticking over. Without it you would still be talking about the sheeps back bemoaning that Australia is missing out on the global economy. Look at NZ's economy, it cant keep up because of low inward migration and high emigration.




NZ had a housing bubble burst, as we get ours, our economy will tank as well.




jank said:


> LOL, a so called libertarian advocating Singapores system.




I'm not advocating anything, I'm citing them as an example of low taxed countries who are rich - to disprove your idiotic argument that only high-taxing countries can be rich. Stop putting words into my mouth to support your stupid, worthless arguments.



jank said:


> No, because she would have paid many more times taxes then the average person. Are you disputing this?




I am not disputing it, and I'm not agreeing with it. Until you show me her tax return, as far as I am concerned, she's paid no tax.



jank said:


> Personal remarks are just a sign of your immaturity and your childishness.




By that logic, you must be the most immature and childish person here. Just read your own damn post you hypocrite.



jank said:


> I'm an immigrant who has paid taxes day one, yet I should be entitled to nothing, right?




Correct. Nobody is entitled to anything.



jank said:


> What hard work? Your a ****ing trader!




Actually I'm an engineer, I trade for fun.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (30 May 2012)

Klogg said:


> No, it's boss code for we don't want to pay $250k a year to get the qualified people here, because the majority of people on the eastern side of the country are too lazy to re-locate.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, she's just trying to get a job done for the lowest amount possible. It's not her concern, nor her responsibility, to care for the rest of the country.
> 
> So long as she pays her taxes and works within government guidelines, then she's doing her part.




How can you prove they are too lazy to re-locate? People across the eastern states are now losing their job because of this damn housing bubble caused so much oversupply, there is massive slack in the construction industries. These workers will not be able to just find another job - and I contend that they will have no choice but to move to the mining areas to put up construction work there.

Why not let this natural process play out, why hire foreign labour? This is just madness


----------



## numbercruncher (30 May 2012)

Klogg said:


> No, it's boss code for we don't want to pay $250k a year to get the qualified people here, because the majority of people on the eastern side of the country are too lazy to re-locate.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, she's just trying to get a job done for the lowest amount possible. It's not her concern, nor her responsibility, to care for the rest of the country.
> 
> So long as she pays her taxes and works within government guidelines, then she's doing her part.




Well thats exactly it - 457 isnt about getting the job done as cheaply as possible ! thats exactly what its not spost to do - its a rort and you obviously agree by saying shes doing it to get the job done as cheap as possible when its spost to be filling jobs that ongoing targetted recruitment cant fill ....


----------



## MrBurns (30 May 2012)

Forget Gina Reinhart thats small change.

I just had to call Telstra today and had to endure endless bulldust before I was put through to someone in who knows where who could hardly speak or understand English.

How many Australians have missed out on jobs because this Govt part owned entity chooses to outsource overseas ? It's a bloody disgrace.
Not only costs Australian jobs but the service is appalling.

While I'm at it there used to be conductors on trains and trams, and staff on stations.

Not any more since our Govts sold these assets off.

Creating jobs for working families ???.............utter rubbish


----------



## jank (30 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> When I last went to a clinic (quite a while ago), I didn't yet have private insurance. Also the fact that private clinics are very scare, and I fail to see why I have to travel to go to a clinic..




Ah pity you! You have to TRAVEL to a clinic! Surely that is the Australian governments fault too! I hearby petition that we should build a private clinic in SCM's back lawn!




Starcraftmazter said:


> Right now, when I am paying taxes, I am not asking the federal government to give me any services, nor will I ask in the future. Makes sense?




I am sure those Police officers, paramedics, and fire brigades beg to differ! Oh local government  I suppose they are paid on thin air!




Starcraftmazter said:


> What exactly do you mean a lifetime of credit? Their tax money was SPENT it was SPENT ALREADY, the government DOES NOT PUT ASIDE TAX REVENUES FOR FUTURE SPENDING ON WELFARE. What is so hard about this to understand?..




You clearly have no concept of what taxation is. I am speechless. May I suggest you read the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.




Starcraftmazter said:


> But they have lower taxes as well. Political parties never change anything, all Australian mainstream parties are absolute rubbish. Nothing but a bunch of corrupt puppets.




So, you think giving out about it endlessly on an Internet fourm is the best way to spend your energy and time. Swiss tax rates are alot higher than you think, as I said go there if you dont believe me.



Starcraftmazter said:


> I repeat, I do not know *nor care* who she is.?..




Fair enough but you are making an absolute tool of your self. Its like a communist who doesnt know who Marx is. You are making it up as you go along, there is a wealth of knowledge out there might be worthwhile to check some of it out as you may find something new. You must be awfully insecure if you do not look for new knowledge. Are you afraid that you might be wrong?




Starcraftmazter said:


> I didn't ask for your flawed and entitled opinions about my ideology.?..




What ideology, because its sure hell not what you think it is, its whatever I believe in this second or moment. Then it changes tomorrow, or in 3 minutes. You believe in nothing but hate.



Starcraftmazter said:


> You seem completely oblivious to the existence of state and local governments. .?..




But how are they funded when you yourself said there should be no taxes AT ALL...?? Rates are a tax too numpty!



Starcraftmazter said:


> Is everyone Gina? No.




Everyone is a drain on Society so ya. Been watching the Matrix lately?




Starcraftmazter said:


> If you read my previous posts carefully, I clearly said IF there is any tax, THEN it should be used to provide services for people whom pay it most - not those who do not pay tax. Why do I have to remind you of the discussion? If you are incapable of remembering what is happening in a debate, then don't bother.




That is a grossly inefficent way of managing taxation, nevermind it would destory an economy.




Starcraftmazter said:


> NZ had a housing bubble burst, as we get ours, our economy will tank as well.




Em, not really. It declined back in the GFC by 10%. What is wrong with NZ's economy is the lack of openess especially in the labour market and FDI. Nothing to do with housing. 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10806089
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/5679886/Brain-drain-claims-third-of-New-Zealands-PhDs
http://www.3news.co.nz/Brain-drain-...rowth/tabid/423/articleID/254180/Default.aspx





Starcraftmazter said:


> I'm not advocating anything, I'm citing them as an example of low taxed countries who are rich - to disprove your idiotic argument that only high-taxing countries can be rich. Stop putting words into my mouth to support your stupid, worthless arguments.




I never ever said only high taxed countries can be rich, where did I say those words exactly!Liying now to prove a point?




Starcraftmazter said:


> I am not disputing it, and I'm not agreeing with it. Until you show me her tax return, as far as I am concerned, *she's paid no tax.*.




Wow, when i thought you could not get any more illogical you say that. 



Starcraftmazter said:


> Correct. Nobody is entitled to anything.
> .




Says the guy who used bulk billing!


----------



## moXJO (30 May 2012)

I gotta say I like SCM he always gets a rise out of posters (or me) But can we start an 'at war with SCM' thread or something as topics get way off track.


----------



## Calliope (30 May 2012)

moXJO said:


> I gotta say I like SCM he always gets a rise out of posters (or me) But can we start an 'at war with SCM' thread or something as topics get way off track.




Yeah. This war is going nowhere, and casualties are occurring. I was reprimanded this morning by Joe for being "insulting" to SCM. I warn other posters not to let SCM provoke you.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (30 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Yeah. This war is going nowhere, and casualties are occurring. I was reprimanded this morning by Joe for being "insulting" to SCM. I warn other posters not to let SCM provoke you.




Maybe you should simply behave and not insult others? Too much too ask of some? 



jank said:


> Ah pity you! You have to TRAVEL to a clinic! Surely that is the Australian governments fault too! I hearby petition that we should build a private clinic in SCM's back lawn!




Given that your "arguments" have degenerated into various insults and other meaningless nonsense, I'm not continuing this.



MrBurns said:


> I just had to call Telstra today and had to endure endless bulldust before I was put through to someone in who knows where who could hardly speak or understand English.




Well why do you use Telstra? Why? There is plenty of competition. I for one would like to see more people put their money where their mouth is.

The free market is all powerful, if people stop using these scumbag companies which offshore jobs, then they will go bankrupt.

Internode is a great example of an Australian ISP which offers the highest quality services, and only employers Australians.


----------



## rumpole (30 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Forget Gina Reinhart thats small change.
> 
> I just had to call Telstra today and had to endure endless bulldust before I was put through to someone in who knows where who could hardly speak or understand English.
> 
> ...




Good points Mr Burns. I had a similar experience with Telstra and had to talk to someone in the Phillippines for about an hour to no avail.

You seem to be advocating re-nationalisation of Telstra and other public services so that greedy capitalists don't sell off government assets 

Correct ?


----------



## MrBurns (30 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> Good points Mr Burns. I had a similar experience with Telstra and had to talk to someone in the Phillippines for about an hour to no avail.
> 
> You seem to be advocating re-nationalisation of Telstra and other public services so that greedy capitalists don't sell off government assets
> 
> Correct ?




I dont think essential services should be sold off, electricity, gas, trains, all of these things should be run by Govt to ensure they just arent there to make profit......like they are now. Service declines and jobs are lost. Thats progess ???

Telstra is Govt hypocracy personified.


----------



## rumpole (30 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> I dont think essential services should be sold off, electricity, gas, trains, all of these things should be run by Govt to ensure they just arent there to make profit......like they are now. Service declines and jobs are lost. Thats progess ???




Agreed.


----------



## Julia (30 May 2012)

Klogg said:


> No, it's boss code for we don't want to pay $250k a year to get the qualified people here, because the majority of people on the eastern side of the country are too lazy to re-locate.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, she's just trying to get a job done for the lowest amount possible. It's not her concern, nor her responsibility, to care for the rest of the country.
> 
> So long as she pays her taxes and works within government guidelines, then she's doing her part.



Agree.  She is not running a welfare agency.



moXJO said:


> I gotta say I like SCM he always gets a rise out of posters (or me) But can we start an 'at war with SCM' thread or something as topics get way off track.



Meanwhile, all of us who respond to him are providing him with exactly what he wants:  a platform to continue espousing his unpleasant and asocial views.
It may be entertaining, but it's also unhealthy imo to allow him to continue propagating his ignorant ideas.
These may be genuinely held but are more likely the rantings of the true troll.



Calliope said:


> Yeah. This war is going nowhere, and casualties are occurring. I was reprimanded this morning by Joe for being "insulting" to SCM. I warn other posters not to let SCM provoke you.



Goodness.  SCM is more than 'insulting' to many members.


----------



## Glen48 (30 May 2012)

This is how the IMF work lend some country money and tell  them to upgrade their essential service then they get them to privatize so the buyer gets taxpayer funded enterprise  and then the bills go up and the service down.
Of course a few pollie's get a spin off.


----------



## Calliope (30 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Maybe you should simply behave and not insult others? Too much too ask of some?




You certainly are confused!



> Given that your "arguments" have degenerated into various insults and other meaningless nonsense, I'm not continuing this




 That's good news Promise?


----------



## moXJO (30 May 2012)

Julia said:


> Meanwhile, all of us who respond to him are providing him with exactly what he wants:  a platform to continue espousing his unpleasant and asocial views.
> It may be entertaining, but it's also unhealthy imo to allow him to continue propagating his ignorant ideas.
> These may be genuinely held but are more likely the rantings of the true troll.
> 
> ...




He mainly puts his view across without insulting members and he is entitled to his opinion. It's only when you have a bone to pick that it leads to pages and pages of text. I don't think the majority adds anything to the thread when it gets like that. Still he has a right to his beliefs whether I agree with them or not. His personality traits are pretty normal for the majority of engineers I have met as well:


----------



## jank (30 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> You certainly are confused!
> 
> 
> 
> That's good news Promise?




This has been a very good investment for me, not sure about you guys.


----------



## Intrinsic Value (30 May 2012)

I certainly think this is an attempt to get workers on the cheap and of course a very compliant workforce due to the inherent obligations for 457 visa holders.

However I also think it may be a trend for the future. In a global market, capital is very mobile in so far as companies will relocate where they get cheaper labour and cheaper infrastructure costs. 

Similarly, in a global market labour is also becoming more mobile. Workers will move to where they get the best deals eg higher wages, less taxes etc. Many countries import cheap overseas labour to support and boost their economies. 

Many skilled Australians like myself and others have worked for long periods in Asia and Middle East because we are offered much bigger salary packages and low or no tax regimes. It is no surprise that industry in Australia would like to get a hold of overseas labour be it skilled or unskilled if they think it is going to be cheaper or better.

Given there are billions of workers out there in the global market Australia's relatively protected labour market may in the future become much more open to overseas workers with of course resulting greater competition for fewer jobs and a further decline in real wages except perhaps for those in highly skilled niche industries.

If history is any guide dont expect the unions or governments to do much to protect you!


----------



## breaker (30 May 2012)

Telstra is the only provider in the bush ,the service is atrocious just like SCM's comments,I believe we should pass the hat around and send him to Singapore or Clermont Qld Where he could be shown some reasoning.

Oh hear comes my smack


----------



## ColB (30 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*



tigerboi said:


> fail to see? how long do you think it takes to learn to be a roadtrain driver? just as long as it takes to train a doctor.
> 
> how many OVERSEAS trained roadtrain drivers do you reckon we import?
> 
> why shouldnt we get first choice of jobs in our own country.




Couldn't agree more TB that it would be preferable that Australians get first chance at any of these jobs BUT I can't seriously believe that a truck driver could even go close to comparing their skill set and responsibility with that of a doctor.  

Until we see 5 year university courses and another couple of years of supervised on the job training before they allow a truck driver to operate by himself then some of us might disagree with your overrated perception of a roadtrain drivers skillset.


----------



## Julia (30 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> To some people like you, words such as freedom and liberty are meaningless.






Starcraftmazter said:


> I hope she (and Clive Palmer) die of a heart attack real soon. Given how fat they are, they hopefully don't have much longer to live.






moXJO said:


> He mainly puts his view across without insulting members and he is entitled to his opinion. It's only when you have a bone to pick that it leads to pages and pages of text. I don't think the majority adds anything to the thread when it gets like that. Still he has a right to his beliefs whether I agree with them or not. His personality traits are pretty normal for the majority of engineers I have met as well:




Perhaps I was conflating personal insults with unpleasant remarks about non-members, as above.
And maybe I'm out of step with what's acceptable commentary, but I find the suggestion that we should not e.g. look after the aged who have paid their share of taxes pretty offensive.

Likewise the suggestion that his ideal society rejects any notion of caring for people who are unable to care for themselves.

And overlying all of it, the astonishing arrogance of someone in his first job, who may not even have been out of the country (I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case), opining on how poorly Australia compares with much of the rest of the world, strikes me as simply ignorant.   This country is not perfect but we enjoy freedoms, plus health and social benefits that much of the rest of the world must envy.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (30 May 2012)

Julia said:


> And maybe I'm out of step with what's acceptable commentary, but I find the suggestion that we should not e.g. look after the aged who have paid their share of taxes pretty offensive.




The problem is you are looking at it from an emotional personal perspective (irrelevant) and I look at it purely from an economic perspective (the world functions on economics...). It is impossible to fund reirees with Australia's increasing aged population. Even with ABS's best estimates in terms of very very high immigration (which doesn't solve the problem in either case, just makes it bigger for future generations) - our dependency ratio will still head into very bad territory.

















It's not a matter of whether we should or should not take care of aged people - go ahead and start a charity and collect donations if you want that, but we cannot go on taxing the product members of the economy to pay for a massive retired population.



Julia said:


> Likewise the suggestion that his ideal society rejects any notion of caring for people who are unable to care for themselves.




That's completely false; all I want is that such care be given voluntarily instead of money be stolen from people and for it to be arbitrarily as well as inefficiently determined whom to best give it to.



Julia said:


> This country is not perfect but we enjoy freedoms, plus health and social benefits that much of the rest of the world must envy.




Your flaw is your self-centred opinion that everyone has identical opinions to yourself about what makes a country great, and that everyone who doesn't agree with you must be "wrong" or "bad" in some way. People like you are why the world is best ran on libertarian ideologies - so that everyone can best decide for themselves how to best spend their surplus income on which social endeavours - and not have arbitrary, inefficient and ineffective wastes of money shoved down their throat by arrogant people who think they know better than everyone else.

And for the last time, it is irrelevant if you've paid taxed all your life - that tax money has been SPENT, all the services that you have received throughout your life have already been funded with that money, and *the government does not put your tax money aside to fund your retirement - it has to come out of the pockets of the most productive members of society, who would otherwise use it to invest in things like infrastructure, research and entrepreneurship*.

That is why all aged pensions are the biggest malinvestment in the economy (after military spending). At least with education and healthcare you are investing in future and current workers - but with retired people, there is no economic benefit to support them - no economic benefit at all. There is no justification for the government to do anything which does not have a direct economic benefit to the country.


----------



## DB008 (30 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Yeah. This war is going nowhere, and casualties are occurring. I was reprimanded this morning by Joe for being "insulting" to SCM. I warn other posters not to let SCM provoke you.




+1
I agree

However....


----------



## Muschu (30 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I'm 22, old is old enough to care about old people.




Thx for a precise response.  I'm 66.  At your age I had just finished compulsory National Service for 2 years.

A lot has happened since then and I have learned a good deal, made many errors / adjustments and hope to learn a great deal more.

What I hope I have never been is "absolute" with my views.

I sincerely wish you well.  

Rick


----------



## tigerboi (30 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*



ColB said:


> Couldn't agree more TB that it would be preferable that Australians get first chance at any of these jobs BUT I can't seriously believe that a truck driver could even go close to comparing their skill set and responsibility with that of a doctor.
> 
> Until we see 5 year university courses and another couple of years of supervised on the job training before they allow a truck driver to operate by himself then some of us might disagree with your overrated perception of a roadtrain drivers skillset.




As someone who just had spinal surgery my neurosurgeon dr darwish is from JORDAN
(we spoke about petra while i was still awake,so want to go see it.amazing place)

i understand the skill set required & by his reports he did a great job & i agree with him

despite the horrible post op pain,my gp nino sa-cordeiro is from GOA whe has been here

over 45 years & is an unsung hero in his field of expertise,the medical folk have my utmost respect.

as for being a professional driver such as a triple road train driver just pointing out it takes alot longer than most think to require the skills to drive such trucks nothing overated when you consider what sort of coin is on offer.

to go from a car licence to a roadtrain/b double licence means going thru the licence classes C,LR,MR,HR,HC,MC...plus all the modern requirements such as a fatigue 
management 14 hour logbook,C.O.R. chain of responsibility etc

different skills of course but a tafe course wont get you a job even shuffling papers,dont forget also transport & logistics is a well sought after career these days,not so much the
driving side which is why alot of the eastern guys have gone west.cheers...tb

here is a video...


----------



## numbercruncher (30 May 2012)

No doubt Gina will have guys with international licences and English translation books in hand driving around your roadtrains very soon ....


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> why the world is best ran on *libertarian ideologies* - so that everyone can best decide for themselves




That is not libertarian-ism, that is anarchy for rich people, pure and simple. You don't have a clue what libertarian-ism is really about. You are looking at it from a 2d perspective only. Again read up on objectism if you are really interested in what its about, other wise your just a troll!

Oh but your 22 and you have it all figured out more so than all the brilliant minds that have lived on this earth before. Tell me who are your idols, where do you get your theories from?


----------



## tigerboi (31 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> No doubt Gina will have guys with international licences and English translation books in hand driving around your roadtrains very soon ....




that would be her wish however you cant drive a heavy vehicle on an international licence

just like overseas doctors coming here to work,they have to be trained to our regulations

anyhow it will be interesting to see the final outcome.

the workers coming here will be doing the unskilled stuff,hammer this sweep that...tb


----------



## DB008 (31 May 2012)

*Re: SO WE CANT FILL 1700 JOBS?*



tigerboi said:


> to go from a car licence to a roadtrain/b double licence means going thru the licence classes C,LR,MR,HR,HC,MC...plus all the modern requirements such as a fatigue
> management 14 hour logbook,C.O.R. chain of responsibility etc




tigerboi, l went from C to HR in 1 go a number years ago (in WA).


----------



## numbercruncher (31 May 2012)

tigerboi said:


> the workers coming here will be doing the unskilled stuff,hammer this sweep that...tb





Oh reeeely - didnt know thats the idea of a 457 ......


----------



## Calliope (31 May 2012)

Three of the biggest ratbags on the extreme left and right oppose EMAs;

Doug Cameron
Bob Katter
Pauline Hanson.

That says it all. End of Story.

*Miners warn of 'racist innuendo' as Pauline Hanson backs Doug Cameron on jobs for Aussies*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...jobs-for-aussies/story-fn9hm1gu-1226375682546


----------



## Starcraftmazter (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> That is not libertarian-ism, that is anarchy for rich people, pure and simple. You don't have a clue what libertarian-ism is really about. You are looking at it from a 2d perspective only. Again read up on objectism if you are really interested in what its about, other wise your just a troll!




No, you're a troll. Anarchy is the absence of government, libertarianism is a minimal central government. I am not advocating no government. Stop your nonsense at once.


----------



## Calliope (31 May 2012)

Dig a little deeper and they will come across The White Australia Policy.


----------



## numbercruncher (31 May 2012)

What a load of absolute trollip - we have something like 180 thousand immigrants a year and because people dont like Rineharts little 457 scam they start pulling out all the punches -

Can imagine how bad itll get if Rinehart gets to own even more of the media ....


----------



## Starcraftmazter (31 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Dig a little deeper and they will come across The White Australia Policy.




White Australia policy implies it's ok to import white immigrants; I don't think anyone gives a crap about their race/ethnicity - rather the fact that they are coming here.

Pretty stawman to be honest - just what you'd expect from miningtards.


----------



## numbercruncher (31 May 2012)

Its easy to convince many when your rich enough huh .....


----------



## Calliope (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> White Australia policy implies it's ok to import white immigrants; I don't think anyone gives a crap about their race/ethnicity - rather the fact that they are coming here.
> 
> Pretty stawman to be honest - just what you'd expect from miningtards.




You talk in riddles.

What's a "stawman"?  
What's a "miningtard"? Google thinks you mean "miningnerd".


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Oh reeeely - didnt know thats the idea of a 457 ......




If you are on a 457 visa you must have qualifications and/or experience in a field as dictated by DIAC.

http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/sbs/how-the-visa-works.htm

Oh but dont let the facts get in the way of a good ol whinge feast!


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> No, you're a troll. Anarchy is the absence of government, libertarianism is a minimal central government. I am not advocating no government. Stop your nonsense at once.




But you are advocating no taxes at all! How can one pay for essential services like an army, police, courts, government etc if there are no taxes. You clearly have not thought it out.

Round and round we go!


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> What a load of absolute trollip - we have something like 180 thousand immigrants a year and because people dont like Rineharts little 457 scam they start pulling out all the punches -
> 
> Can imagine how bad itll get if Rinehart gets to own even more of the media ....




180,000 a year yet we have 14 pages about 1,750 SKILLED workers for a max period of 3 years stay in Australia........ Em ok!


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> White Australia policy implies it's ok to import white immigrants; I don't think anyone gives a crap about their race/ethnicity - rather the fact that they are coming here.
> 
> Pretty stawman to be honest - just what you'd expect from miningtards.




Do you know what Xenapohobia is, probably not as you dont know what Fascism, Communism, Libertarianism, etc... means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia


----------



## Starcraftmazter (31 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> You talk in riddles.
> 
> What's a "stawman"?
> What's a "miningtard"? Google thinks you mean "miningnerd".




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_Argument

Miningtard is.....let us say, someone who who advocates the interests of the mining industry - which are also contrary to our national interests.



jank said:


> But you are advocating no taxes at all! How can one pay for essential services like an army, police, courts, government etc if there are no taxes. You clearly have not thought it out.
> 
> Round and round we go!




Because those services are offered by local and state governments. Jesus man, do you not know history at all? How do you think federal governments functioned before income tax? 

Army is the only exception, but it is completely unnecessary to have a standing army - especially if your country is an island.



jank said:


> Do you know what Xenapohobia is, probably not as you dont know what Fascism, Communism, Libertarianism, etc... means.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia




Xenophobia is a term coined by liberal blowhards, so that they could label anyone who disagrees with them a xenophobe - and not have to actually mount any reasonable, coherent argument. Kind of like "privilege".


----------



## Calliope (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_Argument




Oh, I thought you said "stawman"



> Miningtard is.....let us say, someone who who advocates the interests of the mining industry - which are also contrary to our national interests.




So you're an antiminingtard...also against the national interests.



> Xenophobia is a term coined by liberal blowhards, so that they could label anyone who disagrees with them a xenophobe - and not have to actually mount any reasonable, coherent argument. Kind of like "privilege".




Just like "miningtard" is a word coined by a certain ill-liberal blowhard so that he could label anyone who disagrees with him a "miningtard" - and not have to actually mount any reasonable, coherent argument.


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Because those services are offered by local and state governments. Jesus man, do you not know history at all? How do you think federal governments functioned before income tax?
> 
> Army is the only exception, but it is completely unnecessary to have a standing army - especially if your country is an island




Yet local and state governments would go bankrupt if ther werent recieving grants from Federal Government.
Last time Australia didnt have a standing army they were left completely exposed to Japan. I suppose its OK not to have a big army once the US have your back eh? 
Sorry you hate them too.

SCN would like if everyone lived in a box and minded their own business. Very easy to be against something, much more difficult to be for something. We are seeing the proof of that here.




Starcraftmazter said:


> Xenophobia is a term coined by liberal blowhards, so that they could label anyone who disagrees with them a xenophobe - and not have to actually mount any reasonable, coherent argument. Kind of like "privilege".




If you read the article you would have learned that Xenophobia is actually a Greek word, you know those guys that lived 3,000 years ago that provided the basic foundation of western civilization. Anyway whine away..


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> So you're an antiminingtard...also against the national interests.




I wonder does he know whats in the national interest at all?
Cut Australia away from the world and get everyone to live in isolation for the fear oftrespassingg on someones liberty?


----------



## Starcraftmazter (31 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> So you're an antiminingtard...also against the national interests.




Nothing the mining industry does is in the national interest.



Calliope said:


> Just like "miningtard" is a word coined by a certain ill-liberal blowhard so that he could label anyone who disagrees with him a "miningtard" - and not have to actually mount any reasonable, coherent argument.




Pretty sure I always have a good argument, the miningtard is just icing on the cake.



jank said:


> Yet local and state governments would go bankrupt if ther werent recieving grants from Federal Government.




That's because the Federal government has stolen from the states a lot of their power to collect various taxes, and in turn has agreed to pay them the collected taxes in whatever ratio it chooses.



jank said:


> Last time Australia didnt have a standing army they were left completely exposed to Japan.




Last time we didn't have a UN, didn't have free trade, didn't have nuclear weapons, and the world was a very different place in general.

And still, no Japanese soldier has set foot in Australia in WW2.



jank said:


> I suppose its OK not to have a big army once the US have your back eh?




Australia's relationship with the US is the greatest loss of national sovereignty. A country does not have to have a military relationship with anyone else to remain neutral - just look at Switzerland.



jank said:


> If you read the article you would have learned that Xenophobia is actually a Greek word, you know those guys that lived 3,000 years ago that provided the basic foundation of western civilization. Anyway whine away..




That doesn't stop liberals from using it to label anyone whom they disagree with, as though it means something.



jank said:


> I wonder does he know whats in the national interest at all?
> Cut Australia away from the world and get everyone to live in isolation for the fear oftrespassingg on someones liberty?




You only make yourself look like stupid by inventing things and putting them in my mouth 

I guess it's because you're incapable of debating - so you must resort to strawman arguments to cover up your deficiencies.


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

So in summary, its all the federals governments fault, the UN will save Australia if attacked, the US is using Australia as a 51st state and I am a strawman!

Your perception of reality is frankly disturbing. There is a real world out there, try live in it sometime.

Again, who is your idol? Who do you follow, what are you for if anything.


----------



## Calliope (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> S
> Your perception of reality is frankly disturbing. There is a real world out there, try live in it sometime.
> 
> Again, who is your idol? Who do you follow, what are you for if anything.




Don't be too disturbed by SCM's nonsense. It is all just a game to young Max. He lives in a fantasy world. Between playing juvenile video games and posting his rants he obviously can't be doing anrthing productive. 

http://beta.xfire.com/profile/starcraftmazter


----------



## Starcraftmazter (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> So in summary, its all the federals governments fault, the UN will save Australia if attacked, the US is using Australia as a 51st state and I am a strawman!




You  sure are, and you're doing it again.




Calliope said:


> Don't be too disturbed by SCM's nonsense. It is all just a game to young Max. He lives in a fantasy world. Between playing juvenile video games and posting his rants he obviously can't be doing anrthing productive.
> 
> http://beta.xfire.com/profile/starcraftmazter




I believe that's called an *ad hominem*? It wouldn't be so sad to your post post if you didn't claim moral superiority. Are you a child stuck in a man's body?

Here, this is for you. You should print it out onto a big poster and hang it up on your bedroom wall. Then, whenever you think about posting something stupid, have a look at it first.


----------



## Calliope (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I believe that's called an *ad hominem*? It wouldn't be so sad to your post post if you didn't claim moral superiority. Are you a child stuck in a man's body?




Sorry Max for exposing you. It is strange that you should accuse me of possessing your faults and your attributes. 



> Here, this is for you. You should print it out onto a big poster and hang it up on your bedroom wall. Then, whenever you think about posting something stupid, have a look at it first.




A blank poster! Very subtle. I like it.


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

Calliope said:


> Don't be too disturbed by SCM's nonsense. It is all just a game to young Max. He lives in a fantasy world. Between playing juvenile video games and posting his rants he obviously can't be doing anrthing productive.
> 
> http://beta.xfire.com/profile/starcraftmazter






Wow, 3000 hours is over 125 days of constant video game playing. If we take an average 8 hours of sleep a night that is almost 188 days of doing nothing else but sleeping and playing video games. Add in a job that your average man/woman of 40 hours a week that is 480 days of sleeping, working and video games. I dont even include toilet breaks, eating, shopping, posting rubbsih on this website, etc...
So after sleeping and work SCM has done NOTHING but play video games for *480 days*.

Yet he has the cheek to call others scroungers and deluded!

You could not make it up. No wonder he is so ****ed up, his mind is melted by Starcraft and Modern Warfare. His ability to think in clear, concise terms, in a rational logical manner is beyond fixing. He cannot put forward an arguement with any basis of fact or reason at all. Clearly demonstrated in his numerous Tourette's like posts here 

Ah, not his fault. I say blame the parents!


----------



## MrBurns (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> Wow, 3000 hours is over 125 days of constant video game playing. If we take an average 8 hours of sleep a night that is almost 188 days of doing nothing else but sleeping and playing video games. Add in a job that your average man/woman of 40 hours a week that is 480 days of sleeping, working and video games. I dont even include toilet breaks, eating, shopping, posting rubbsih on this website, etc...
> So after sleeping and work SCM has done NOTHING but play video games for *480 days*.
> 
> Yet he has the cheek to call others scroungers and deluded!
> ...




No job ?


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> No job ?




Maybe! However, it would be the ultimate irony given his outlook on life and the "welfare" state. I suppose mammy and daddy by his defintion are not welfare!


----------



## MrBurns (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> Maybe! However, it would be the ultimate irony given his outlook on life and the "welfare" state. I suppose mammy and daddy by his defintion are not welfare!




He's 22 and on the PC all day...


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

MrBurns said:


> He's 22 and on the PC all day...




Agreed! He has done nothing with his life yet, yet feels the need to tell everyone they are wrong. If he spent those 3000 hours doing something more productive like reading a frigging book or two he may... sorry he WOULD be better off! He is an empty vessal. A bit of passion granted but totally mis-directed. A waste tbh.


----------



## rumpole (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> Agreed! He has done nothing with his life yet, yet feels the need to tell everyone they are wrong. If he spent those 3000 hours doing something more productive like reading a frigging book or two he may... sorry he WOULD be better off! He is an empty vessal. A bit of passion granted but totally mis-directed. A waste tbh.




Video games are the devil's own work.

Gotta get back to FlightSim , see you


----------



## MrBurns (31 May 2012)

rumpole said:


> Video games are the devil's own work.
> 
> Gotta get back to FlightSim , see you




Angry Birds


----------



## noco (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> Agreed! He has done nothing with his life yet, yet feels the need to tell everyone they are wrong. If he spent those 3000 hours doing something more productive like reading a frigging book or two he may... sorry he WOULD be better off! He is an empty vessal. A bit of passion granted but totally mis-directed. A waste tbh.




Gina might be able put him to good use him the Pilbara, then we would not have to put up with his megalomania.:


----------



## breaker (31 May 2012)

noco said:


> Gina might be able put him to good use him the Pilbara, then we would not have to put up with his megalomania.:




Yeah they'd love him in a mining camp


----------



## numbercruncher (31 May 2012)

You all have a unhealthy obsession with SCM !


----------



## MrBurns (31 May 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> You all have a unhealthy obsession with SCM !




Yeeeeeesssssssss


----------



## johenmo (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Either way, I do not use healthcare services, because I am not an old sickly person. I don't even get sick thanks to a lifestyle of healthy eating and exercise.




Quite a few people in your position are victims of circumstance.  One random act of violence has left healthy young people with disabilities, requiring large sums of other taxpayer's money for the rest of their lives.  In the wrong place at the wrong time.  

Extraordinaly healthy people have suddenly felt a bit off - to find they have a terminal illness or a permanent debilitating condition.  And their lifestyle and genetics do not explain it.

The oncoming driver nods off, crosses the line at the last minute. Injury or disability.

I know a few people who have been unfortunately affected like both scenarios above.

I do hope nothing like this happens to you - but it can and does happen to people.  And you are one as well.  Unfortunately, you appear to be linded by what you portray as blind naivety.  I may be wrong but that is the image you portray.

Of course, you may trolling.  In which, a job well done..  And thank you for such an excellent example of trolling.

Good luck.


----------



## rumpole (31 May 2012)

> Either way, I do not use healthcare services, because I am not an old sickly person. I don't even get sick thanks to a lifestyle of healthy eating and exercise.




That's probably what that 22 year old Norwegian swimmer thought before he collapsed and died of a heart attack in the shower, or the pro footballer who had a heart attack on the field.

All you young blokes think you are immortal.

Think again..


----------



## Starcraftmazter (31 May 2012)

johenmo said:


> Quite a few people in your position are victims of circumstance.  One random act of violence has left healthy young people with disabilities, requiring large sums of other taxpayer's money for the rest of their lives.  In the wrong place at the wrong time.
> 
> Extraordinaly healthy people have suddenly felt a bit off - to find they have a terminal illness or a permanent debilitating condition.  And their lifestyle and genetics do not explain it.
> 
> ...




They are a very small minority, charities can look after them. Remember that the government does not have any money which taxpayers don't give it. Taxpayers can choose to aid these people to a certain level if it were not mandatory - and indeed that is what would happen.



rumpole said:


> That's probably what that 22 year old Norwegian swimmer thought before he collapsed and died of a heart attack in the shower, or the pro footballer who had a heart attack on the field.




That is a usual occurrence for young men on steroids. Of course, I do not use steroids.


----------



## CanOz (31 May 2012)

Although i can sympathize with those wanting to try and figure out SCM and why he is the way he appears to be, in this virtual world...it is dramatically :topic

Unless of course SCM is an immigrant, in which case he would also be a hypocrite...somehow i doubt the former is true.

Lets get back on the topic.

CanOz


----------



## qldfrog (31 May 2012)

CanOz said:


> Although i can sympathize with those wanting to try and figure out SCM and why he is the way he appears to be, in this virtual world...it is dramatically :topic
> 
> Unless of course SCM is an immigrant, in which case he would also be a hypocrite...somehow i doubt the former is true.
> 
> ...



 +1, and just so that people can at least pretend to know what they are talking about, truck drivers in mines are driving Hauling trucks (big 200-400 tonnes trucks) , not roadtrain, i doubt you need any of the commercial truck driver license in WA (but i may be wrong as each state has quite specific tickets) 
I was amazed to see this thread as a bashing for SCM by a lot of mostly retirees (based on what i can read browsing the last two pages)  who are the first ones to benefit of the current system in OZ but will be the first one to loose if the immigration doors do open;
Maybe they want to have free sneakers from DJ in 10y time "a la London riot?"


----------



## Calliope (31 May 2012)

CanOz said:


> Although i can sympathize with those wanting to try and figure out SCM and why he is the way he appears to be, in this virtual world...it is dramatically :topic




Yes, but an amusing feel-good diversion. However I have a feeling that the thread is now dead in the water.


----------



## Julia (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> That doesn't stop liberals from using it to label anyone whom they disagree with, as though it means something.



The term xenophobia is much more frequently used by the Left in their labelling of anyone who disagrees with the admission of asylum seekers who have chosen not to apply to come to Australia in the conventional way, but who shove those waiting in camps in Malaysia et al back years while our authorities here are kept occupied processing the boat arrivals.




qldfrog said:


> I was amazed to see this thread as a bashing for SCM by a lot of mostly retirees (based on what i can read browsing the last two pages)  who are the first ones to benefit of the current system in OZ but will be the first one to loose if the immigration doors do open;



Can you tell us why retirees will be "the first to lose" if immigration 'doors do open'.
I cannot fathom the connection.


----------



## Caveman (31 May 2012)

Why has this thread been changed /moved?


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

qldfrog said:


> I was amazed to see this thread as a bashing for SCM by a lot of mostly retirees (based on what i can read browsing the last two pages)  who are the first ones to benefit of the current system in OZ but will be the first one to loose if the immigration doors do open;
> Maybe they want to have free sneakers from DJ in 10y time "a la London riot?"




I'm in my early 30's and i'm an immigrant, so at least I am speaking from the other side of the fence. I have been through the mill, paid my money, submitted applications, did medicals, waited. Everything above board and to the letter. I don't think anyone else here has done that. Just wanted to give a view from the "other" side. Too much populist pub talk out there that has no basis in reality. 

If someone has a well formed and factual opinion of opposition to outsourcing these jobs to foreign workers then fine, I can respect that as I can see why this decision would piss people off, but so far all I see on this thread is all anecdotal evidence of hearsay that would make the producers of ACA and TT proud. 

Also, I find it VERY strange as a non-Australian defending Australia against Australians. That is something I thought would never happen.


----------



## jank (31 May 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> That is a usual occurrence for young men on steroids. Of course, I do not use steroids.




Proof? Have you heard of Muamba?


----------



## CanOz (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> I have been through the mill, paid my money, submitted applications, did medicals, waited. Everything above board and to the letter. I don't think anyone else here has done that.




Been there, done that, in Australia and China....ooh, i should add it was for perm res, not citizenship yet..

CanOz


----------



## Starcraftmazter (31 May 2012)

jank said:


> If someone has a well formed and factual opinion of opposition to outsourcing these jobs to foreign workers then fine, I can respect that as I can see why this decision would piss people off, but so far all I see on this thread is all anecdotal evidence of hearsay that would make the producers of ACA and TT proud.




If you read the thread, you would have seen some. More specifically;

 - Big recession in Australia, thousands of construction workers losing their jobs.
 - Gina wants to import construction workers in the country because she doesn't want to pay a fair wage set by the free market

This is complete bull****.



jank said:


> Proof? Have you heard of Muamba?




If you're into fitness, you will come across lots of these cases, it's always steroids.


----------



## jank (1 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> If you read the thread, you would have seen some. More specifically;
> 
> - Big recession in Australia, thousands of construction workers losing their jobs.
> - Gina wants to import construction workers in the country because she doesn't want to pay a fair wage set by the free market
> ...



Yes, it is bull, Australia hasnt been in recession offically since 1991 afaik. Try harder next time with you know FACTS!



Starcraftmazter said:


> If you're into fitness, you will come across lots of these cases, it's always steroids.




Well clearly its not always steroids. Muamba's case wasn't steroid related unless you know something that everyone else doesnt. Again FACTS would be helpful


----------



## Starcraftmazter (1 June 2012)

jank said:


> Yes, it is bull, Australia hasnt been in recession offically since 1991 afaik. Try harder next time with you know FACTS!




Facts? Maybe you should pay attention to the nation's economy. Every industry is shedding jobs, credit growth is flat, retail spending is going backwards, people getting laid off right and left.



jank said:


> Well clearly its not always steroids. Muamba's case wasn't steroid related unless you know something that everyone else doesnt. Again FACTS would be helpful




I didn't say anything about Muamba.


----------



## jank (1 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Facts? Maybe you should pay attention to the nation's economy. Every industry is shedding jobs, credit growth is flat, retail spending is going backwards, people getting laid off right and left.
> .




Every industry is shedding jobs? Even the mining industry????? Mate, read what you write before you post. The facts are as of this date Australia is officially not in recession. I have the RBA to back up my FACTS! What do you have apart from anecdotal opinion. Screenshots of Starcraft?

http://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/au-gdp-growth.html



Starcraftmazter said:


> I didn't say anything about Muamba.




Em, you did. You said the reasons why fit young people collapse and die is due to Steroids, you said that its ALWAYS the reason. I pointed out that Muamba did not use Steroids thus proving that its not ALWAYS the case. Again refer to FACTS and simple basic LOGIC!!


----------



## Starcraftmazter (1 June 2012)

jank said:


> Every industry is shedding jobs? Even the mining industry????? Mate, read what you write before you post. The facts are as of this date Australia is officially not in recession. I have the RBA to back up my FACTS! What do you have apart from anecdotal opinion. Screenshots of Starcraft?




GDP is a weak measure of the economy, look at the situation on the ground. And yes, mining has been shedding jobs, maybe you should pay attention to the news.

Apart from that, just wait for the Aussie GDP figure which if I'm not mistaken is coming out next week, I bet it will be far below estimate.

And stop saying "FACTS" so much, you are beginning to look desperate.

Why don't you do some research, I'm sick of responding to nonsense. Begin here:
http://macrobusiness.com.au/


----------



## Calliope (1 June 2012)

CanOz said:


> Of course GDP is a weak indicator (I prefer lagging), but it is the accepted measure of economical fitness.
> CanOz




Still :topic. The thread has been hijacked by Maztertroller.


----------



## jank (1 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> GDP is a weak measure of the economy, look at the situation on the ground. And yes, mining has been shedding jobs, maybe you should pay attention to the news.
> 
> Apart from that, just wait for the Aussie GDP figure which if I'm not mistaken is coming out next week, I bet it will be far below estimate.
> 
> ...




AKA, i don't have any facts to back up my argument so I am going to bail....OK!

GDP is the internationally recognized method of measuring if an economy is in recession or not, Been that way for long long time. What is your method? Talking to your mates on starcraft? If you cant prove to me what your saying then dont say it. That is the difference between and facts and opinion.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (1 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Still :topic. The thread has been hijacked by Maztertroller.




I was just replying to jank, blame him.



jank said:


> AKA, i don't have any facts to back up my argument so I am going to bail....OK!




Good for you to finally admit that.


----------



## numbercruncher (1 June 2012)

At the rate that things are going Gina may not need to bring in lower paid foreign workers under the guise of 457 -




> China cancels thermal coal contracts
> 
> Australian coal producers may be considering closing their mines because Chinese buyers are defaulting on thermal coal contracts.
> China, the biggest user of coal, wants a lower price for the commodity and an analyst says until that's negotiated, Australian thermal coal exporters won't be able to sell their product.




http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201206/s3515966.htm


----------



## rumpole (1 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> At the rate that things are going Gina may not need to bring in lower paid foreign workers under the guise of 457 -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So the Chinese are now so arrogant they think they can go around breaking contracts they have already signed.

Can't we take them to the WTO or something ?


----------



## numbercruncher (1 June 2012)

rumpole said:


> So the Chinese are now so arrogant they think they can go around breaking contracts they have already signed.
> 
> Can't we take them to the WTO or something ?





A nuclear armed communist nation can do anything they like and there is very little we can do about it - If we didnt have resources they probably wouldnt even talk to us .... Just wait till the Iron Ore contracts start tumbling as well - eeeek


----------



## Glen48 (1 June 2012)

If the Chinese want our coal etc they can come and take it we don't have enough Tinnies to defend the place so think twice before you buy a Chines take away show we mean business.
It all gets back to supply and demand and China is finding out the demand is no  longer  there,same with steal and any  thing else we export.


----------



## Glen48 (1 June 2012)

> Chief executive Greg Robinson warned that cost pressures and declining grades in Australia would push miners towards emerging regions including Uzbekistan, Russia, Latin America and West Africa.
> 
> Australia was now among the 25-50 per cent most expensive destinations for gold miners, Mr Robinson told the annual Stockbrokers Conference in Melbourne.
> 
> ...




They have plunged more than 33 per cent in the past three months.

Now we can see Gina's problem and the needs for cheap labour  as things get bad she will have her way


----------



## Glen48 (2 June 2012)

This should employ a few more workers if you  like putting your hands down some one kids pants apply now:

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/05/australians-prepare-for-rollout-of-full.html


----------



## numbercruncher (3 June 2012)

More proof that the 457 scam is to line billionaires pockets over any other reason -



> A CHALLENGE was thrown down to mining magnates yesterday by independent MP Rob Oakeshott: Send a plane to his NSW electorate and he will fill it with workers.
> 
> "I'd have 100 to 150 people ready straight away," he said yesterday.
> 
> ...




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/worklife/challenge-from-rob-oakeshott-to-mine-potential-for-workers/story-fn7j1dox-1226375808903


----------



## Julia (3 June 2012)

> A CHALLENGE was thrown down to mining magnates yesterday by independent MP Rob Oakeshott: Send a plane to his NSW electorate and he will fill it with workers.
> 
> "I'd have 100 to 150 people ready straight away," he said yesterday.
> 
> Mr Oakeshott and fellow NSW independent Tony Windsor said the mining industry had not done enough to actively recruit workers on the east coast, especially from regional areas with high unemployment.



And have those 100 to 150 people made application to any of the remote mining companies for employment?
Do they have the appropriate skills?
Why does all the responsibility fall on the employers and none on these apparently willing workers?

Typical Oakeshott hot air imo.


----------



## numbercruncher (3 June 2012)

Oh well if no one is willing to take these keen young workers on perhaps we should make some of our 3.2 million aged pensioners who didnt save for retirement go do the work - oh wait they are unskilled bludgers too - forget it - Give all Australias jobs to foreign 457s obviously they made the effort to get these jobs - become a true welfare state


----------



## moXJO (3 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> More proof that the 457 scam is to line billionaires pockets over any other reason -
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/worklife/challenge-from-rob-oakeshott-to-mine-potential-for-workers/story-fn7j1dox-1226375808903




Ok so is he going to guarantee they will stay there for more than 3 weeks?


----------



## Calliope (5 June 2012)

This debate has exposed the Hanson-type hypocritical nastiness in Gillard, Katter and Cameron.



> More seriously, consider the forces unleashed when the * Prime Minister - herself the product of foreign workers*, as are most of us - failed to defend her own policy and her own ministers on the issue of foreign workers while giving succour to the xenophobic tea partyites represented by the trade union movement.
> 
> Bob Katter, limbering up for the federal election, complained loudly that the workers probably won't even be able to speak English.* Presumably like his Lebanese ancestors*.
> 
> *With immaculate Scottish brogue, Doug Cameron warned about Chinese workers*. Talk about taking the low road instead of the high road. It's a refrain as old as the 1850s gold rushes, and just as base.



(My Bolds)



> *This is an opportunity for Abbott to take on Hanson's successors*, to set a more tolerant tone in the national debate and support all workers, English-speaking or not, prepared to contribute to Australian prosperity.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...le-hansons-heirs/story-fnahw9xv-1226383893882


----------



## Starcraftmazter (5 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> This debate has exposed the Hanson-type hypocritical nastiness in Gillard, Katter and Cameron.
> 
> (My Bolds)
> 
> ...




I don't really see how any of the things you bolded has anything to do with the issue at hands, and the simple argument of protecting Australian jobs.

Why do mining supporters always try to side-track from the real issues, and point to stupid meaningless and irrelevant things? Do you have no legitimate arguments?

Well how could you, there is no legitimate reason to steal Australian jobs with foreign imported labour.


----------



## Calliope (5 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Why do mining supporters always try to side-track from the real issues, and point to stupid meaningless and irrelevant things? Do you have no legitimate arguments?




As *you* are well aware, exposing the hypocrisy of those who share your beliefs on importing temporary workers is the best way of exposing blowhards.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (5 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> As *you* are well aware, exposing the hypocrisy of those who share your beliefs on importing temporary workers is the best way of exposing blowhards.




But where is the hypocrisy? What difference does it make where their ancestors came from of what else happened in the distant past? What relevance does it have to foreign workers stealing locals' jobs in this day and age?


----------



## Calliope (5 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> But where is the hypocrisy? What difference does it make where their ancestors came from of what else happened in the distant past? What relevance does it have to foreign workers stealing locals' jobs in this day and age?




Grow up Max, or go back to your play station. They are not stealing locals' jobs. They will be doing work that locals can't or don't want to do in remote areas.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (5 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Grow up Max, or go back to your play station. They are not stealing locals' jobs. They will be doing work that locals can't or don't want to do in remote areas.




Precisely what I mean - all you mining supporters can do is insult others with your irrelevance to mask your *pathetic* excuse for an "argument". Why don't you go back to your bed with Gina.

Show me the evidence that locals can't or don't want to do the work - last time I checked the construction industry is shedding countless thousands of jobs.


----------



## numbercruncher (5 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Grow up Max, or go back to your play station. They are not stealing locals' jobs. They will be doing work that locals can't or don't want to do in remote areas.




Do you have something to back up these statements you pull out of thin air other than your desire to get larger dividends from your mining stock of choice ?

We clearly have tradespeople getting thrown on the dole que daily and people like Gina dont appear to have any jobs advertised yet they seek permission to bring in thousands of low paid foreign temporary workers.

Just face the facts its about saving money for Billionaires than filling unfillable jobs.


----------



## Calliope (5 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Precisely what I mean - all you mining supporters can do is insult others with your irrelevance to mask your *pathetic* excuse for an "argument". Why don't you go back to your bed with Gina.
> 
> Show me the evidence that locals can't or don't want to do the work - last time I checked the construction industry is shedding countless thousands of jobs.




Yada yada yada.


----------



## jank (5 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Yada yada yada.




I agree.


----------



## young-gun (5 June 2012)

it's not just the fact that they are taking potential jobs off Australians, it's also that you can almost guarantee there will be loop holes(or they will just blatantly do it) allowing these magnates to pay these workers fresh off the boat lower rates. Anyone who believes otherwise are kidding themselves.

The construction industry is rife with sham contracting. It's not that the contractors aren't making enough money, its that they want more. Bringing laborers tilers and so on in on $14-$20 an hour in some cases is simply not allowed, and yet every week the same mobs are trading under new business names to filter this cheap labour through the system. Not only does it entice other builders to try the same, and squeeze properly paid Australians out of there jobs, it also introduces a safety issue on sites. The safety standards and expectations here in Australia are far higher than alot of other nations, and failure to adhere costs lives. In my experience alot of these workers under 'sham contracts' barely speak english, so I fail to see how they are able to understand the comprehensive list of safety expectations dealt out by the bucket load on a daily basis.

Again I can't say that this is definitely going to be the case with the miners, but I would assume it is going down the same track.

Also anyone saying that Aussies arent looking for jobs. I've got 3 mates currently living in north queensland and have done so for the past 12 months. they have all completed generic mining courses, worked with mining sub-contractors to get experience in drag lines etc, and only one of them has managed to pick up a roster so far. It is not as simple as picking up the phone and walking in. You really need to know someone, or it's a long hard road. Mines arent as interested as putting time, money and effort into training up new recruits as some may think.

IMO this is just another quick fix, maybe they need a few laborers and a couple of fitters n turners or something. bottom line is there are guys and girls here that want to do it, they are just taking the easy/cheap road, so they can buy another 30k couch for the entrance to their home. 

I havent read the entire thread, but can someone tell me exactly what qualifications they are apparently trying to bring in?


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> it's not just the fact that they are taking potential jobs off Australians, it's also that you can almost guarantee there will be loop holes(or they will just blatantly do it) allowing these magnates to pay these workers fresh off the boat lower rates. Anyone who believes otherwise are kidding themselves.
> 
> The construction industry is rife with sham contracting. It's not that the contractors aren't making enough money, its that they want more. Bringing laborers tilers and so on in on $14-$20 an hour in some cases is simply not allowed, and yet every week the same mobs are trading under new business names to filter this cheap labour through the system. Not only does it entice other builders to try the same, and squeeze properly paid Australians out of there jobs, it also introduces a safety issue on sites. The safety standards and expectations here in Australia are far higher than alot of other nations, and failure to adhere costs lives. In my experience alot of these workers under 'sham contracts' barely speak english, so I fail to see how they are able to understand the comprehensive list of safety expectations dealt out by the bucket load on a daily basis.
> 
> ...




Well check out this link from January, then do a bit of research.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20515&page=115&p=682346#post682346


----------



## young-gun (5 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well check out this link from January, then do a bit of research.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20515&page=115&p=682346#post682346




im failing to see what you are getting at? linking me to a site that says people are pursuing high paying mining jobs as opposed to doing what seem to be deemed as the 'lesser' jobs in society isnt really applicable to what i said nor the thread. if you are tying to say that there are alot of australians that are lazy then yes I agree. 

I don't really need to research when I am in the construction industry and see it first hand, I just asked a question that someone may already know to save me lookig it up. By hearing from word of mouth from friends who are in the mining industry, I will get a far better understanding of what is occurring in the real world than from the tele, thanks.

Oh and I have no problem with them bringing in workers, or giving jobs to people in any industry, provided they are paid correctly, and there aren't aussie workers that are being overlooked first.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> im failing to see what you are getting at? linking me to a site that says people are pursuing high paying mining jobs as opposed to doing what seem to be deemed as the 'lesser' jobs in society isnt really applicable to what i said nor the thread. if you are tying to say that there are alot of australians that are lazy then yes I agree.
> 
> I don't really need to research when I am in the construction industry and see it first hand, I just asked a question that someone may already know to save me lookig it up. By hearing from word of mouth from friends who are in the mining industry, I will get a far better understanding of what is occurring in the real world than from the tele, thanks.
> 
> Oh and I have no problem with them bringing in workers, or giving jobs to people in any industry, provided they are paid correctly, and there aren't aussie workers that are being overlooked first.




What I was refering to was, Warwick McKibbin made reference to the problems associated with bringing in overseas labor. The problems with this are well documented.
Obviously it isn't a problem with you, but maybe you can explain how you monitor if aussie workers are being overlooked or even bypassed. What checks are in place?
Especially if it helps the government if it caps wage rises?
As for friends in the mining industry, what has that got to do with anything, I have two family members in the mining industry, so what?


----------



## young-gun (5 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> What I was refering to was, Warwick McKibbin made reference to the problems associated with bringing in overseas labor. The problems with this are well documented.
> Obviously it isn't a problem with you, but maybe you can explain how you monitor if aussie workers are being overlooked or even bypassed. What checks are in place?
> Especially if it helps the government if it caps wage rises?
> As for friends in the mining industry, what has that got to do with anything, I have two family members in the mining industry, so what?




sorry i thought the link was the full story, didn't realise there was more, will read tomorrow n get back to u, bed for me now.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> sorry i thought the link was the full story, didn't realise there was more, will read tomorrow n get back to u, bed for me now.




Something for you to sleep on, if you are a construction worker, be it dogman, rigger, fitter, I don't give a rats what. 
If I can bring in a foriegn worker with the same skills that is crapping himself of being sent back.
I know who I will emloy everytime, if there isn't any backlash.LOL
Thankfully I am past this stage, I just worry about my kids and grandkids, not having the same opportunities I had. Like I have said on numerous occasions, labor get through changes liberal would have no chance with.


----------



## Julia (5 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> Also anyone saying that Aussies arent looking for jobs. I've got 3 mates currently living in north queensland and have done so for the past 12 months. they have all completed generic mining courses, worked with mining sub-contractors to get experience in drag lines etc, and only one of them has managed to pick up a roster so far.



So, there are at least two possible conclusions to be drawn from this personal anecdote (which is hardly meaningful in terms of the national situation is it?):

1.  this is making a case for the use of overseas workers who already have the specialised skills required.

2.  there are all sorts of other reasons why your friends haven't landed a job.  It seems a bit unrealistic to me to imagine that the mining companies should be expected to just give jobs to any person, qualified or unqualified, who thinks they'd like to work for that company.  Just being your friends, nice though that is, doesn't necessarily qualify them in terms of the prospective employer's requirements.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

Julia said:


> So, there are at least two possible conclusions to be drawn from this personal anecdote (which is hardly meaningful in terms of the national situation is it?):
> 
> 1.  this is making a case for the use of overseas workers who already have the specialised skills required.
> 
> 2.  there are all sorts of other reasons why your friends haven't landed a job.  It seems a bit unrealistic to me to imagine that the mining companies should be expected to just give jobs to any person, qualified or unqualified, who thinks they'd like to work for that company.  Just being your friends, nice though that is, doesn't necessarily qualify them in terms of the prospective employer's requirements.




You are spot on Julia, this rubish about jobs for everyone is a scam, time will show what the underlying driver is. My feeling is it won't be pleasant.
My gut feeling is we are heading for the L.C.D


----------



## qldfrog (5 June 2012)

Julia said:


> So, there are at least two possible conclusions to be drawn from this personal anecdote (which is hardly meaningful in terms of the national situation is it?):
> 
> 1.  this is making a case for the use of overseas workers who already have the specialised skills required.
> 
> 2.  there are all sorts of other reasons why your friends haven't landed a job.  It seems a bit unrealistic to me to imagine that the mining companies should be expected to just give jobs to any person, qualified or unqualified, who thinks they'd like to work for that company.  Just being your friends, nice though that is, doesn't necessarily qualify them in terms of the prospective employer's requirements.



And a third one:
 this job boom is not existing at all, at least in Queensland (maybe in WA? No real personal knowledge there)
What I do know is that 2 big miners (one starting with a B and the other with R) are currently reducing staff and closing mine/projects in coal.
Just read papers and keep reading them in the coming months.
So do not even think about a federal budget profit next year paid by the mining tax...


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

qldfrog said:


> And a third one:
> this job boom is not existing at all, at least in Queensland (maybe in WA? No real personal knowledge there)
> What I do know is that 2 big miners (one starting with a B and the other with R) are currently reducing staff and closing mine/projects in coal.
> Just read papers and keep reading them in the coming months.
> So do not even think about a federal budget profit next year paid by the mining tax...




Well over here in the West, talking to friend on the weekend, he has worked on mines as a haulpack and scraper driver, currently works for a local council.
He can't get a job because they say his mine experience isn't current. What the, he can't follow it.
All sounds like crap to me.
But hey, lets get those overseas workers in. No it's not because you can throw them out ad lib. No it's not because they work for less. No it's not because there is different leave provisions. It's because my mate doesn't qualify.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (5 June 2012)

The Snowy Mountains Scheme would not have been built without foreign workers.

And they, their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren are fine Australians.

gg


----------



## noco (5 June 2012)

Please don't ask me to provide a link, but I read in one of the papers today where just 38 have applied to work in the Pilbara.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

noco said:


> Please don't ask me to provide a link, but I read in one of the papers today where just 38 have applied to work in the Pilbara.




As an old learned friend once said, believe half of what you see, none of what you hear and the opposite of what you read.
Actually show me the advert for zillions of workers in the W.A papers and show me the rejected applications.
Talks cheap, I could put an advert in and say that I got no replies. Who the hell audits it. What a crock.
Like I said our local council employs over 600 and the drivers are on $23/hr, they are saying when they apply for mining jobs, nothing comes of it.


----------



## numbercruncher (5 June 2012)

noco said:


> Please don't ask me to provide a link, but I read in one of the papers today where just 38 have applied to work in the Pilbara.




Thats great - if they are residents they would quite possibly be receiving benefits but instead they are participating and earning if they get the job.

No doubt Gina will turn them down as unskilled and take on someone equally unskilled but has a 457 entitling them to lower pay and no job protections/rights.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Thats great - if they are residents they would quite possibly be receiving benefits but instead they are participating and earning if they get the job.
> 
> No doubt Gina will turn them down as unskilled and take on someone equally unskilled but has a 457 entitling them to lower pay and no job protections/rights.



Yes and I would love to see their annual leave provisions


----------



## Julia (6 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> No doubt Gina will turn them down as unskilled and take on someone equally unskilled but has a 457 entitling them to lower pay and no job protections/rights.



All that I've read about workers on 457 visas states that they are paid at the same rate as Australians.
Do you have evidence otherwise?

Jank, you would know about this.  Are you able to comment?


----------



## joea (6 June 2012)

Here is one link for jobs in WA.
It should open on jobs listed with this company.
So you can see a cross section of jobs to be filled.

http://westjobs.com.au/JobSeeker/Jobs/Browse.aspx

I thought I would show that it is not just mining.

joea


----------



## pilots (6 June 2012)

Some years ago the company I was working for had 4 welders brought in from the Philippines, was real easy to get them, all the company had to do was show the adds that was run in the Australian papers, and the number of people that applied. What amazed all of us was that the imported welders all started work b4 7AM, and was still welding at 5 O'clock. The first Sunday they was here they all turned up for work, they was upset they could not work on the Sunday. Until Australian workers start to do a full days work, you are going to get more workers in from overseas.


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2012)

pilots said:


> Some years ago the company I was working for had 4 welders brought in from the Philippines, was real easy to get them, all the company had to do was show the adds that was run in the Australian papers, and the number of people that applied. What amazed all of us was that the imported welders all started work b4 7AM, and was still welding at 5 O'clock. The first Sunday they was here they all turned up for work, they was upset they could not work on the Sunday. Until Australian workers start to do a full days work, you are going to get more workers in from overseas.




Thats's all well and good, but how many boat people do you see heading fot the Philippines?
I can't understand why everyone is hell bent on trying to make Australia more like a S/E Asian country, when everyone there is trying to get here.
Maybe everyone should work seven days a week for half the money and no annual leave. Then we wouldn't have the asylum seeker problem. The multinational companies would be happy, the labor party would be happy because everybody would re join a union.
I can't see any down side .LOL,LOL,LOL
We could even end up with the hotch potch sidewalks, undrinkable water and the constant smell of sewage. Oh yes lets go down that path.LOL


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2012)

joea said:


> Here is one link for jobs in WA.
> It should open on jobs listed with this company.
> So you can see a cross section of jobs to be filled.
> 
> ...




Well Joea, try something, apply for one of the jobs you are qualified for. See if you get an interview, you can allways decline the interview or the job. What I would be interested in is to see if you even get an interview.
It would be an interesting excercise.


----------



## jank (6 June 2012)

Julia said:


> All that I've read about workers on 457 visas states that they are paid at the same rate as Australians.
> Do you have evidence otherwise?
> 
> Jank, you would know about this.  Are you able to comment?




Yes, I do know about this after being through the process. There are legal minimum requirements for salary, superannuation and health insurance if an employer wants to take on someone on a 457 visa. If the employer breaks these conditions then they lose the right to employ more people on 457 visa's. 

http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/sbs/how-the-visa-works.htm

Alot of what is being written on this thread is unsubstantiated bull$hit I must say. The I heared from my brother/uncle/friend/dog etc...


----------



## Julia (6 June 2012)

Thanks, jank.  Appreciate knowing the reality.


----------



## Glen48 (6 June 2012)

Fitter Welder/Australia (4 new jobs)
Welders here use sun glasses as a welding mask they are good at welding to a point due to lack of decent equipment ,have yet to see mig or tig welder   all are stick welding machines and a lot left over from WW2 on $8 a day here why wouldn't you want to work there for   7 days a week .

They have to work 7days or starve but where are the jobs and what are they as you can see above not much demand for welders.
Think Gina and Co just want to break the ice and and test the waters and our pollie's would not  care as long as they get elected.


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2012)

jank said:


> Yes, I do know about this after being through the process. There are legal minimum requirements for salary, superannuation and health insurance if an employer wants to take on someone on a 457 visa. If the employer breaks these conditions then they lose the right to employ more people on 457 visa's.
> 
> http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/sbs/how-the-visa-works.htm
> 
> Alot of what is being written on this thread is unsubstantiated bull$hit I must say. The I heared from my brother/uncle/friend/dog etc...




I agree there are legal minimum salary requirements, it's called the minimum wage approx $15 - $16/hr. We used to have award rates covering dfferent work areas, these are now obsolete in most places. Work place negotiated agreements are now the norm.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (6 June 2012)

Julia said:


> 2.  there are all sorts of other reasons why your friends haven't landed a job.  It seems a bit unrealistic to me to imagine that the mining companies should be expected to just give jobs to any person, qualified or unqualified, who thinks they'd like to work for that company.  Just being your friends, nice though that is, doesn't necessarily qualify them in terms of the prospective employer's requirements.




Haha what? The argument most frequently used is that there aren't people living in the right areas. 

So now we have people living in mining areas, who have taken initiative to obtain the necessary training - and now even more stupid excuses have to be used for why they are out of work?

When will you mining supporters give up and go home? Face it - there is NO LABOUR SHORTAGES AT ALL, it's all a ruse by billionaire lardtards like Gina so they don't have to pay fair wages.



qldfrog said:


> And a third one:
> this job boom is not existing at all, at least in Queensland (maybe in WA? No real personal knowledge there)
> What I do know is that 2 big miners (one starting with a B and the other with R) are currently reducing staff and closing mine/projects in coal.
> Just read papers and keep reading them in the coming months.
> So do not even think about a federal budget profit next year paid by the mining tax...




I like this very much, and I agree. There is no boom, and we have countless mining and constructions workers unemployed and more losing jobs everywhere across the country - it is sheer insanity that mining is allowed to bring in foreign labour during a time like this.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> The Snowy Mountains Scheme would not have been built without foreign workers.
> 
> And they, their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren are fine Australians.




Relevance?


----------



## Calliope (6 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> When will you mining supporters give up and go home? Face it - there is NO LABOUR SHORTAGES AT ALL, it's all a ruse by billionaire lardtards like Gina so they don't have to pay fair wages.




Repetitious, boring, tedious, Maxtard.


----------



## Intrinsic Value (6 June 2012)

Anybody who thinks that these workers on 457's are filling skills shortages is really deluding themselves.

The reality is it is easier and cheaper to get people on 457's and they are obviously much more compliant as they live in fear of having their visa cancelled.

There may well be some instances and i stress some instances where these visas are warranted but when you start talking numbers in the thousands I dont believe it.

Anyhow Rhineheart has admitted as much by her own political statements and agenda. I dont know why anyone would defend her. She is all about making as much for herself and her company without much thought to anything much else.


----------



## johenmo (6 June 2012)

Intrinsic Value said:


> .... Rhineheart ... is all about making as much for herself and her company without much thought to anything much else.




As much as I dislike the idea of having people come in and take up work if there ARE Ozzies who can do the jobs, when one has a business one generally does like to maximise profit.  I know, someone at this level of wealth and profit can be afford to be somewhat altruistic if they wish.  But there is a difference between sustainably maximising profit within ethical means and maximising profit at any cost.  So making a profit is not eveil - that's how companies grow and then employ more people.

"The love of money is the root of all evil".


----------



## Intrinsic Value (6 June 2012)

Of course companies try to make as much money as possible and that is why in a mixed economy we have government legislation to ensure employees are not unfairly treated. Well that is the theory. But companies if they can legally get away with lowering their labour costs by in this case employing foreign labour then some companies will.

The government says they are paying award wages and that maybe but if they werent getting a better deal from the foreign workers they wouldn't be employing them. It really is as simple as that.


----------



## young-gun (6 June 2012)

Julia said:


> So, there are at least two possible conclusions to be drawn from this personal anecdote (which is hardly meaningful in terms of the national situation is it?):




well yes it is, as it's first hand insight into what is occurring, as opposed to what may be read in the oh so informative papers.



> 1.  this is making a case for the use of overseas workers who already have the specialised skills required.




No, this is making a case for training up Australians, exactly how do you propose my mates get experience to do the job if they are never given a chance to gain experience? they are switched on guys, and can handle anything, they just need the opportunity.



> 2.  there are all sorts of other reasons why your friends haven't landed a job.  It seems a bit unrealistic to me to imagine that the mining companies should be expected to just give jobs to any person, qualified or unqualified, who thinks they'd like to work for that company.  Just being your friends, nice though that is, doesn't necessarily qualify them in terms of the prospective employer's requirements.




pretty well the same as above. If everyone constantly expects to have the perfect man for the job, without putting some time and money into them, and no one wants to train, then we're going to be in big trouble down the track, with a bunch of retirees and foreigners and a group of unskilled youth following through. doesnt seem to smart to me.


----------



## young-gun (6 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Something for you to sleep on, if you are a construction worker, be it dogman, rigger, fitter, I don't give a rats what.
> If I can bring in a foriegn worker with the same skills that is crapping himself of being sent back.
> I know who I will emloy everytime, if there isn't any backlash.LOL
> Thankfully I am past this stage, I just worry about my kids and grandkids, not having the same opportunities I had. Like I have said on numerous occasions, labor get through changes liberal would have no chance with.




then I would look forward to seeing you behind bars because your electrician wasn't familiar with australian electrical safety standards and injured or god forbid killed someone. still havent read the link but getting there.


----------



## Glen48 (6 June 2012)

http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/video/

Found this now a big recruitment drive to import Kiwi's any one worked out whats going on????


----------



## Calliope (6 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> No, this is making a case for training up Australians, exactly how do you propose my mates get experience to do the job if they are never given a chance to gain experience? they are switched on guys, and can handle anything, they just need the opportunity.




And whose fault is it if they have no qualifications to do a job. If they had any initiative these dead beats would have got off their ars*s and learned a trade. Now you are whining that these "switched on guys" who "can handle anything" are not given preference over people who have worked to gain their skills.

Anyone who comes to this country to do a job that Australians can't or won't do, should be welcomed with open arms.


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> then I would look forward to seeing you behind bars because your electrician wasn't familiar with australian electrical safety standards and injured or god forbid killed someone. still havent read the link but getting there.




One good electrical supervisor can oversee a mixed bag of workers. All you need is three good sparkies, give them leading hands rates and they can look after five semi skilled plebs each. The supervisor ensures the regulations are followed.


----------



## young-gun (6 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> And whose fault is it if they have no qualifications to do a job. If they had any initiative these dead beats would have got off their ars*s and learned a trade. Now you are whining that these "switched on guys" who "can handle anything" are not given preference over people who have worked to gain their skills.
> 
> Anyone who comes to this country to do a job that Australians can't or won't do, should be welcomed with open arms.




are you kidding me? point out where i said they aren't qualified. they are all qualified, experienced tradesmen. I dont see why just because they didnt do their apprenticeships and training in the mines that they shouldnt be able to seek work out there. you are way off the mark.


----------



## young-gun (6 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> One good electrical supervisor can oversee a mixed bag of workers. All you need is three good sparkies, give them leading hands rates and they can look after five semi skilled plebs each. The supervisor ensures the regulations are followed.




if only you had the slightest idea. so you're happy to bring people who may not be able to do the work safely, because you think the supervisor has time to run around checking everything they do? is this a piss take thread?


----------



## Calliope (6 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> are you kidding me? point out where i said they aren't qualified. they are all qualified, experienced tradesmen. I dont see why just because they didnt do their apprenticeships and training in the mines that they shouldnt be able to seek work out there. you are way off the mark.




Tell them to stop whining. If they have the qualifications I'm sure there is plenty of highly paid work for them at home. Their skills can be better employed there that at the Pilbara. With imported workers we don't have a drain on local tradesman, who are commanding a high remuneration. Everybody wins.


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2012)

young-gun said:


> if only you had the slightest idea. so you're happy to bring people who may not be able to do the work safely, because you think the supervisor has time to run around checking everything they do? is this a piss take thread?




Mate I'm with you on this, I think it is terrible, but I have no doubt this is the crap that is going on.
This is what will do our kids out of a future, it is the unbelievably gullible, who think the labour requirements can't be filled from our local workforce and training our kids that get up my nose.
By the way, I am a sparkie and have been for for nearlly 40 years also grew up in the W.A mining areas.


----------



## numbercruncher (6 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Tell them to stop whining. If they have the qualifications I'm sure there is plenty of highly paid work for them at home. Their skills can be better employed there that at the Pilbara. With imported workers we don't have a drain on local tradesman, who are commanding a high remuneration. Everybody wins.





You are seriously just out trolling hey ? Trying to wind people up ?


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2012)

Furthermore, if the government was serious about addressing the skills shortage they would be looking at spending money on training facilities in these areas and supplying housing. Then offering dole recipients the option to relocate. 
At least then they would have an honest reflection of peoples willingness to go these areas. Rather than saying people aren't willing to go, when there is minimal housing available and what is available costs more than they earn.
Oh yes that brings us back to the imported workers, housing isn't a problem.

What everyone has to get their head around is, what is left when the hole is empty. No ongoing infrastructure like farming the north, no we've talked about it now the Chinese want to do it. Just how dumb are we.


----------



## Calliope (6 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> You are seriously just out trolling hey ? Trying to wind people up ?




No that's what number crunchers do.


----------



## young-gun (7 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Mate I'm with you on this, I think it is terrible, but I have no doubt this is the crap that is going on.
> This is what will do our kids out of a future, it is the unbelievably gullible, who think the labour requirements can't be filled from our local workforce and training our kids that get up my nose.
> By the way, I am a sparkie and have been for for nearlly 40 years also grew up in the W.A mining areas.




your comments suggested otherwise, or at least that's where they were leading me. I'm a sparky also, which is obviously why the last comment rubbed me up the wrong way. Fortunately from what I've seen on construction it's not so much(if at all) the elec. contractors that are attempting to bring in cheap labour. I would say it's because they would struggle as (theoretically) they all need to sit certain courses to swap their license. Whether or not they would actually sit these courses is another thing, it's not hard to get away with it if the employer turns a blind eye.. Mostly tilers, a/c laggers, laborers etc.


----------



## young-gun (7 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Tell them to stop whining. If they have the qualifications I'm sure there is plenty of highly paid work for them at home. Their skills can be better employed there that at the Pilbara. With imported workers we don't have a drain on local tradesman, who are commanding a high remuneration. Everybody wins.




lol....:asdf:


----------



## numbercruncher (7 June 2012)

Its becoming clearer by the day that Rhinehart is just in it for herself - I vote we strip her citizenship and send her packing. A fitting punishment for such Un-Australian behaviour.



> Australian building activity has contracted for its 24th consecutive month, based on weak commercial activity and new orders, a private study has found.
> 
> The Australian Industry Group-Housing Industry Association's performance of construction index (PCI) fell 0.2 points to 34.7 in May.
> 
> ...




http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/a/28890-construction-contracts-dive-for-24th-month.html

With numbers like this there will be construction workers queing for jobs.


----------



## pilots (7 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Its becoming clearer by the day that Rhinehart is just in it for herself - I vote we strip her citizenship and send her packing. A fitting punishment for such Un-Australian behaviour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hell man lets make her PM, she make 105Mil a day, look what our so called PM spends aday.


----------



## numbercruncher (7 June 2012)

pilots said:


> Hell man lets make her PM, she make 105Mil a day, look what our so called PM spends aday.




Why not just Tax mining magnates more and abolish negative gearing and end foreign aid - that ought to stop that pesky wee problem.


----------



## Calliope (7 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Its becoming clearer by the day that Rhinehart is just in it for herself - I vote we strip her citizenship and send her packing. A fitting punishment for such Un-Australian behaviour.




Yes she should be punished for her part in lifting the GDP and helping to keep the Labor government afloat. Very un-Australian.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Yes she should be punished for her part in lifting the GDP and helping to keep the Labor government afloat. Very un-Australian.




True. Kicking her out of the country would create a new low for the tall poppy syndrome!


----------



## johenmo (7 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Yes she should be punished for her part in lifting the GDP and helping to keep the Labor government afloat. Very un-Australian.




But freeze all her assets first.  Then pass retrospective laws to ensure they go to help reduce the Govt debt.  We don't want them going overseas as well.


----------



## jank (7 June 2012)

Intrinsic Value said:


> Anybody who thinks that these workers on 457's are filling skills shortages is really deluding themselves.
> 
> The reality is it is easier and cheaper to get people on 457's and they are obviously much more compliant as they live in fear of having their visa cancelled.
> 
> ...




Any proof or more angry talk?


----------



## Starcraftmazter (7 June 2012)

johenmo said:


> But freeze all her assets first.  Then pass retrospective laws to ensure they go to help reduce the Govt debt.  We don't want them going overseas as well.




+1, why exactly is this not done? I don't even understand. She stole that money from Australia after all - and now she wants to steal our jobs as well. Last time I checked, theft is a criminal offence.


----------



## numbercruncher (7 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> +1, why exactly is this not done? I don't even understand. She stole that money from Australia after all - and now she wants to steal our jobs as well. Last time I checked, theft is a criminal offence.




Three out of four of her own Children agree - throw her out , keep the cash


----------



## numbercruncher (7 June 2012)

whilst we are at it throw that Palmer out as well - wont pay his $300 speeding fine and to absolutely take the piss he plans to build Titanic 2 .....

No doubt he is budgeting for that via replacing Aussies with 457s like his mate Gina ....


----------



## Calliope (7 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> +1, why exactly is this not done? I don't even understand. She stole that money from Australia after all - and now she wants to steal our jobs as well. Last time I checked, theft is a criminal offence.




All that hate out of the mouth of one so young.:shake:


----------



## Starcraftmazter (7 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> whilst we are at it throw that Palmer out as well - wont pay his $300 speeding fine and to absolutely take the piss he plans to build Titanic 2 .....
> 
> No doubt he is budgeting for that via replacing Aussies with 457s like his mate Gina ....




Why wasn't he charged with slander against the Greens anyway?


----------



## Calliope (7 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Why wasn't he charged with slander against the Greens anyway?




Why do you ask? Are you and NC opposed to slander?


----------



## numbercruncher (7 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Why do you ask? Are you and NC opposed to slander?





Shouldnt you be out laying cables so my internet goes quicker ?


----------



## Starcraftmazter (7 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Why do you ask? Are you and NC opposed to slander?




I'm merely wondering who Clive Palmer is that the law does not apply to him.


----------



## Calliope (7 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I'm merely wondering who Clive Palmer is that the law does not apply to him.




Max, it's the same law that allows you to slander those you hate. You are even allowed to do it on this forum. Isn't freedom of speech wonderful!! Just be careful to stay away from racial hatred. Hatred of the wealthy is okay.



> It is unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if:
> (a) the act is reasonably likely in all the circumstances to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or group of people, and
> (b) the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or some or all of the people in the group


----------



## numbercruncher (7 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Max, it's the same law that allows you to slander those you hate. You are even allowed to do it on this forum. Isn't freedom of speech wonderful!! Just be careful to stay away from racial hatred. Hatred of the wealthy is okay.




So Gina employing non Australians even though Australians are clearly willing and able to take these jobs (not to mention insulted by her behaviour)would be illegal discrimination using that definition you just quoted?


----------



## Starcraftmazter (7 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Max, it's the same law that allows you to slander those you hate. You are even allowed to do it on this forum. Isn't freedom of speech wonderful!! Just be careful to stay away from racial hatred. Hatred of the wealthy is okay.




Does it say anything about accusing political parties of being funded by foreign intelligence agencies for personal political gain?


----------



## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

Heres the heads up on the Foreign 457 worker wage scam ...




> Rinehart’s estimated net personal wealth has risen over the past 12 months from $10.3 billion to just under $30 billion. (BRW Rich 200, 24-05-2012) Not just the richest person in Australia, the richest woman in the world, she looks set to become the richest person in the world within a few years if the government continues to license her *unfettered plunder and rape of the Australian people’s resources*. The super-exploitation of overseas workers is just the cream on the cake in profit gouging.
> 
> Rinehart’s $9 billion Roy Hill iron ore project in Western Australia is the first to be granted an enterprise migration agreement (EMA). The government describes the EMA as “a new temporary migration initiative to help address the skill needs of the resource sector”. But Rinehart got her EMA without first advertising to determine whether there is a skills shortage.
> 
> ...




http://www.cpa.org.au/guardian/2012/1550/01-importing-workers.html


----------



## Calliope (8 June 2012)

Max and NC, all I am saying is that you and and Palmer are free to denigrate and slander anyone you hate (including class hatred) providing you steer clear of racial hatred. Palmer of course, cannot do it on this forum, so you have an advantage there.

So go for it. You can practice on me if you like.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (8 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Max and NC, all I am saying is that you and and Palmer are free to denigrate and slander anyone you hate (including class hatred) providing you steer clear of racial hatred. Palmer of course, cannot do it on this forum, so you have an advantage there.
> 
> So go for it. You can practice on me if you like.




Who's being racist? Like I said - nobody cares about their race, the problem is that these mining billionaires are stealing Aussie jobs just because they don't feel like paying wages set by the market.

Also before I forget,




Calliope said:


> Isn't freedom of speech wonderful!!




It is very wonderful indeed, but there is no freedom of speech in Australia. There are no constitutional nor any other legal provisions for it - it doesn't exist here.


----------



## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

If she behaves like this to her own Children - imagine what she would do to others he try to get in her way ..... makes you not surprised some agree to let her give away Australian jobs :bad:




> GINA Rinehart effectively put a ''gun'' to her own children's heads by telling them they would go bankrupt if they didn't agree to hand over control of the family's multibillion-dollar trust, the three eldest children claim.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/r...ldren-claim-20120313-1uyie.html#ixzz1xARYPjDy


----------



## Starcraftmazter (8 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> If she behaves like this to her own Children - imagine what she would do to others he try to get in her way ..... makes you not surprised some agree to let her give away Australian jobs :bad:




You can tell a lot about a person by how they treat their family. Gina is a cold, ruthless, pathetic person.


----------



## Calliope (8 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Who's being racist? Like I said - nobody cares about their race, the problem is that these mining billionaires are stealing Aussie jobs just because they don't feel like paying wages set by the market.




Max - take your blinkers off. "Who's being racist?"  I  have no idea. I was just giving you friendly advice on things to avoid in your hate campaign. 



> It is very wonderful indeed, but there is no freedom of speech in Australia. There are no constitutional nor any other legal provisions for it - it doesn't exist here.




It was sarcasm Max. You, in particular, have complete freedom of speech on this forum.


----------



## Julia (8 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> You can tell a lot about a person by how they treat their family. Gina is a cold, ruthless, pathetic person.



You, of course, are in a position to know all the background to the personal relationships involved in this family.

By all means, continue your attack on capitalism, but perhaps do not presume to judge matters about which you know nothing.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (8 June 2012)

Julia said:


> You, of course, are in a position to know all the background to the personal relationships involved in this family.




What could have happened which warranted the bankrupting of her children? Did they try to assassinate her?



Julia said:


> By all means, continue your attack on capitalism, but perhaps do not presume to judge matters about which you know nothing.




Attack on capitalism? Ahahahahahaha, this is very rich - especially coming from you.


----------



## Julia (8 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> What could have happened which warranted the bankrupting of her children? Did they try to assassinate her?



I have no idea and neither do you.  She may have had proper reason to exclude them.
Whatever, it's just none of your business.


----------



## jank (8 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Heres the heads up on the Foreign 457 worker wage scam ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are actually posting an article from the Communist Party of Australia to back up your postion?
You see nothing wrong with that?


----------



## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

jank said:


> You are actually posting an article from the Communist Party of Australia to back up your postion?
> You see nothing wrong with that?





haha no actually I find it rather hilarious that I referenced from a Communist Party website considering so many of you have pinned all your hopes and dreams on demand from a Communist nation ....

Use google you could reference that information from a non communist site too


----------



## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

One of the arguments being used to support the importation of low paid 457s is that the economy is running hot - and as more than one economist is saying the figures look like FUDGE !



> THERE'S an old saying among economists: if a figure looks wrong, it usually is. Yesterday's estimate that GDP grew 1.3 per cent in the March quarter amid all the job cuts is a good example.
> These figures strain credulity. If they are right, then the economy has far more strength than we suspected. If they are wrong, they will be revised down, or followed by a fall.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...the-bananas-20120606-1zwnq.html#ixzz1xAvuTjxj


----------



## jank (8 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> haha no actually I find it rather hilarious that I referenced from a Communist Party website considering so many of you have pinned all your hopes and dreams on demand from a Communist nation ....
> 
> Use google you could reference that information from a non communist site too




No, I will leave that to you Dr Google.


----------



## jank (8 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> One of the arguments being used to support the importation of low paid 457s is that the economy is running hot - and as more than one economist is saying the figures look like FUDGE !




So what does that even mean?  You are jumping around throw hoops like a circus animal.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (8 June 2012)

Julia said:


> I have no idea and neither do you.  She may have had proper reason to exclude them.
> Whatever, it's just none of your business.




That's fair, but the fact that she is importing workers at a time of rising unemployment, and accelerating contraction in the construction sector is my business.



jank said:


> So what does that even mean?  You are jumping around throw hoops like a circus animal.




It means that it is stupid to import workers in times of rising unemployment as the economy is going into recession. </captain obvious>


----------



## jank (8 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> It means that it is stupid to import workers in times of rising unemployment as the* economy is going into recession*. </captain obvious>




Yet GDP is growing at the fastest rate since 2008..... OK!


----------



## Calliope (8 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> That's fair, but the fact that she is importing workers at a time of rising unemployment, and accelerating contraction in the construction sector is my business.




There is one unpalatable fact which you will find hard to digest;

No single person in Australia has done more to raise the annual GDP to 4.3 than Gina Rinehart, and this allows Swan, her biggest detractor (after you) to boast that we have the highest GDP in the Western World.

I can understand your union official mate, NC hating successful people who are his class enemies, but I think you have probably led a very charmed life, living in a fantasy world cocooned from the real world.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (8 June 2012)

jank said:


> Yet GDP is growing at the fastest rate since 2008..... OK!




Actually it's growing at the slowest rate since 2008. It's only because the volatile headline inflation was last reported at 0%, and the ridiculous GDP *deflator* was calculated to negative 1% (that's right, the deflator actually inflated our GDP by a wooping 1% for a whole quarter!) that the RGDP figure was so "high".









Calliope said:


> No single person in Australia has done more to raise the annual GDP to 4.3 than Gina Rinehart, and this allows Swan, her biggest detractor (after you) to boast that we have the highest GDP in the Western World.




Our annual GDP is not 4.3% nor will it be.



Calliope said:


> I can understand your union official mate, NC hating successful people who are his class enemies, but I think you have probably led a very charmed life, living in a fantasy world cocooned from the real world.




I am not against successful people. People who invent thing, people who build things, people who innovate. Gina Rinehart is not one of these people.


----------



## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

qldfrog said:


> +1
> working with BHP who is putting the blame on unions and EA strikes for closing project and mines.
> No strikes at the Brisbane offices but employees treated like dirt and slashing numbers /budget like mad;
> The great mining boom is the biggest scam of the time.
> ...






Just reviving this post from the first page as it shows you exactly were its at from a dilligent poster at ground zero ....

Some of you folks need to stay off permabull dotcom

The Communist Nation of China isnt going to make you all rich nor is the financially challenged nation of India , the charade is up folks.

Whats bad for the mining permabulls pockets has got to be good for the Barrier Reef  ( thought Id throw that in ) !


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2012)

jank said:


> Yet GDP is growing at the fastest rate since 2008..... OK!



If you really believe that , you must be working for our prime minister ...

We will have a better idea when the real figures will arrive  to the ATO with reduced tax income all over the place in the next FY...
ABS is always at least 6 months behind, I work in mining , in qld so I should be on the top of the world;
But we are dealing with closure of sites & projects, reduction of workforce and increased unemployment figures.
Yes it could be worse, of course, but we are going down now and I would not even try to guess how low it will end.
Are you in WA?
That is the dream faraway land where everyone see growth and money growing on trees..But I have my doubts


----------



## lurker123 (8 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> There is one unpalatable fact which you will find hard to digest;
> 
> No single person in Australia has done more to raise the annual GDP to 4.3 than Gina Rinehart, and this allows Swan, her biggest detractor (after you) to boast that we have the highest GDP in the Western World.
> 
> I can understand your union official mate, NC hating successful people who are his class enemies, but I think you have probably led a very charmed life, living in a fantasy world cocooned from the real world.




A lot of people including Starcraftmazter dislike Gina Rinehart, yet if you were to ask them if they dislike Andrew Forrest or Bill Gates the answer would be no. 

The fact of the matter is that she has no saving grace. The only way you can judge people is through their actions, its pretty obvious that her actions make people dislike her and that is no ones fault but her own. Label it class warfare all you want, the fact of the matter is that her actions alone make people dislike her, whereas others in her class are respected.

Republicans like you have turned the US into a s*h*i*t hole, no doubt you are trying to do the same to Australia, and I believe you will eventually succeed. Congratulations on your future success of turning Australia into a **** hole because I have no doubt you will succeed.


----------



## Macquack (8 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Heres the heads up on the Foreign 457 worker wage scam ...
> Rinehart’s estimated net personal wealth has risen over the past 12 months from $10.3 billion to just under $30 billion. (BRW Rich 200, 24-05-2012) Not just the richest person in Australia, the richest woman in the world, she looks set to become the richest person in the world within a few years if the government continues to license her *unfettered plunder and rape of the Australian people’s resources*. The super-exploitation of overseas workers is just the *cream on the cake in profit gouging*.
> 
> http://www.cpa.org.au/guardian/2012/1550/01-importing-workers.html




That is the situation in a nutshell.



Calliope said:


> I can understand your union official mate, NC hating successful people who are his *class enemies*.




Absolute rubbish.

I you did not know, Australia is officially called the  "*Commonwealth of Australia*". "Common" wealth as in common to all Australians, not just one big fat capitalist bitch.


----------



## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> A lot of people including Starcraftmazter dislike Gina Rinehart, yet if you were to ask them if they dislike Andrew Forrest or Bill Gates the answer would be no.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that she has no saving grace. The only way you can judge people is through their actions, its pretty obvious that her actions make people dislike her and that is no ones fault but her own. Label it class warfare all you want, the fact of the matter is that her actions alone make people dislike her, whereas others in her class are respected.
> 
> Republicans like you have turned the US into a s*h*i*t hole, no doubt you are trying to do the same to Australia, and I believe you will eventually succeed. Congratulations on your future success of turning Australia into a **** hole because I have no doubt you will succeed.




My sentiments exactly - well said ...


----------



## Starcraftmazter (8 June 2012)

lurker123 said:


> A lot of people including Starcraftmazter dislike Gina Rinehart, yet if you were to ask them if they dislike Andrew Forrest or Bill Gates the answer would be no.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that she has no saving grace. The only way you can judge people is through their actions, its pretty obvious that her actions make people dislike her and that is no ones fault but her own. Label it class warfare all you want, the fact of the matter is that her actions alone make people dislike her, whereas others in her class are respected.
> 
> Republicans like you have turned the US into a s*h*i*t hole, no doubt you are trying to do the same to Australia, and I believe you will eventually succeed. Congratulations on your future success of turning Australia into a **** hole because I have no doubt you will succeed.




Hey mate, I couldn't have said it better myself - a round for you :drink: 



Macquack said:


> I you did not know, Australia is officially called the  "*Commonwealth of Australia*". "Common" wealth as in common to all Australians, not just one big fat capitalist bitch.




:aus:


----------



## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> There is one unpalatable fact which you will find hard to digest;
> 
> No single person in Australia has done more to raise the annual GDP to 4.3 than Gina Rinehart, and this allows Swan, her biggest detractor (after you) to boast that we have the highest GDP in the Western World.
> 
> I can understand your union official mate, NC hating successful people who are his class enemies, but I think you have probably led a very charmed life, living in a fantasy world cocooned from the real world.




I wonder if your heroine maintains good oral hygiene ?




We really dont need her mines , If we have so few workers that she cant get locals we must be running beyond need and capacity, shut her down , let the next generation dig it up in a responsible fashion ...


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## Calliope (8 June 2012)

I have certainly stirred up a hornet's nest of Rinehart haters. Lurker and Macquack are joining Max, NC and Frog in their boring repetitious hate rants. Max applauds Lurker's nastiness and says he couldn't have done it better himself. He is being modest. NC is a lightweight and can be ignored. Those who would like to join the hate quintet just use Macquack's description - "one big fat capitalist bitch" and you are a valued member.

I would like to apologise to other members for apparently being the catalyst for provoking these repetitious and tedious outbursts of nastiness and hatred for Gina Rinehart. This thread has now turned viral and I am the target simply because I refuse to run down Rinehart. I will leave this malignant thread before Joe closes it down. :goodnight



lurker123 said:


> Republicans like you have turned the US into a s*h*i*t hole, no doubt you are trying to do the same to Australia, and I believe you will eventually succeed. *Congratulations on your future success of turning Australia into a **** hole because I have no doubt you will succeed*.




Macquack's  brilliant contribution;



> Absolute rubbish.
> I you did not know, Australia is officially called the "Commonwealth of Australia". "Common" wealth as in common to all Australians, not just *one big fat capitalist bitch*.


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## numbercruncher (8 June 2012)

I must admit I did smile at Macquacks comment ....

Do a google images search for Gina Rinehart and tell me whats the first thing that springs to your mind as the page loads - Im sure it wont be charitable angel :

You have made it clear Calliope that you are her number uno fan - just what has she done for the Commonwealth of Australia that is so wonderful in your opinion?


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## Starcraftmazter (9 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Macquack's  brilliant contribution;




But it's not incorrect. It is a matter of fact that;
 - There is only one of her
 - She is certainly obese
 - She is most probably a capitalist, I doubt she would appreciate communism nor socialism
 - She is most certainly a bitch which we can derive from all her actions

Thus all these characterisations are indeed correct. Furthermore, his contribution is preferred to your commentary. Talk about repetitive


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## pilots (9 June 2012)

one big fat capitalist bitch. 
Well for a start that fat bitch hires HOW many people??????
How much tax has she paid to this government?????????
The fat bitch makes 150 mil a Day, the dumb bitch that is stuffing up our country is WASTING 50mil a day.
I know who I would rather have running this country.


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## numbercruncher (9 June 2012)

pilots said:


> one big fat capitalist bitch.




Obese or overweight is the polite term - the way you say it makes out like shes covered in Lard and cellulite :



> Well for a start that fat bitch hires HOW many people??????




That Obese Woman you mean ? the entire Minerals industry employs about 200k people directly - Rinehart cant be much more than 10k ? In comparison Woolworths employs 100k people alone. And if Rinehart vanished tomorrow , no jobs would be lossed , and im sure more would be gained as a new operator would be ethical and not dishonestly bring in 457s, so effectively Australia would be a better place if she left the industry and stopped trying to control the media.



> How much tax has she paid to this government?????????




No where near enough for pillaging the resources of the Australian people.



> The fat bitch makes 150 mil a Day, the dumb bitch that is stuffing up our country is WASTING 50mil a day.




Far too much profit - I can now see why your favourite Government wants to introduce a super profits tax



> I know who I would rather have running this country.




Ernie Dingo ?


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## pilots (9 June 2012)

Yes Ernie Dingo could not stuff it up as bad as your lot has, what have you got against Gina???? you can do what she has, you fit in to the tall poppy syndrome well. Sure Gina has made a lot of money, but never forget it is ONLY rich people that hire people, poor people hire NO ONE, we need her.


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## Macquack (9 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> NC is a lightweight and can be ignored.




Numbercruncher is a decent fellow who has been around longer than you making fewer but superior posts. 
As you say Calliope "It is quality rather than quantity that matters." So I suggest you practice what you preach.


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## Calliope (9 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> But it's not incorrect. It is a matter of fact that;
> - There is only one of her
> - She is certainly obese
> - She is most probably a capitalist, I doubt she would appreciate communism nor socialism
> ...




Your summation is naive in the extreme.  Macquack's bit of vitriol says more about him than Rinehart.

 - One of him is enough
 - One third of Australians are obese probably including him
 - Class envy and tall poppy syndrome from the extreme left.
 - Hatred of women (misogynist)


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## Glen48 (9 June 2012)

*Trade Minister Craig Emerson has dismissed Nationals Senator Barnaby Joyce's concerns about food security in the wake of a Chinese bid for Australia farmland, as an attempt to drag Australia back to the 1950s.*_Craig Emerson said Australia should* not shun foreign investment in agriculture.*__"Put the walls up... back to the 1950s that's what you get with Barnaby Joyce and Tony Abbott," Dr Emerson told the ABC.__Queensland Senator Barnaby Joyce has raised questions about whether Dr Emerson is favouring a Chinese bid to take over the Ord River irrigation scheme in the West Australian Kimberley region because his former boss Bob Hawke is reportedly representing Chinese firm Shanghai Zhongfu.__He rejected accusations of xenophobia and says local companies should be given priority.__Senator Joyce said "state-owned enterprise investment" should considered differently to investments by individuals because they were "arms of another nation's government."__"If you have another nation's government becoming a large scale owner of land in your country are you going to create confusions for yourself in the future," he told ABC radio.__He said Australia should not be naive about potential future disputes with foreign governments over Australian farmland.__Figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics showing 89 per cent of agricultural land was Australian-owned were wrong, Senator Joyce said.__"If you have two peach trees and a couple of rabbits, they will call you a farmer," he said.__"It's a manipulation of the figures.

_[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Looks like we are to have a lot more M W's  as we keep selling of the farm's  to people who are smarter than us and know ford is more important than minerals. [/FONT]​


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## Starcraftmazter (9 June 2012)

pilots said:


> Well for a start that fat bitch hires HOW many people??????




Including foreign workers or not?



pilots said:


> How much tax has she paid to this government?????????




Nowhere near enough.



pilots said:


> The fat bitch makes 150 mil a Day, the dumb bitch that is stuffing up our country is WASTING 50mil a day.




Dumb luck really - she hasn't done anything, just inherited a lot of land with iron ore.



pilots said:


> you can do what she has




I didn't have her inheritance...so no - no I can't.



Calliope said:


> - Class envy and tall poppy syndrome from the extreme left.




See this is your problem, you seem to think we don't like Gine because of her "class" or because she is "rich" despite you being told multiple times that this is not the case.

Your mentality is truly remarkable. You hold rich people on such a high pedestal, that it is apparently impossible for anyone to dislike them regardless of what they do - and if anyone does, it MUST be because they are rich - because clearly, they are without flaw and absolutely perfect in every way.

And here I thought we were all equals in this world regardless of wealth, and everyone should be treated according to the actions they take, and not the money in their pocket. *Well pardon my capitalism*.



Calliope said:


> - Hatred of women (misogynist)




So what, calling someone a bitch is misogynist? Is calling someone an ******** misandrist then? Is everyone in this world such a wonderful individual that it is inconceivable to you that such words be used in a non gender-discriminatory manner?


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## Calliope (9 June 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> See this is your problem, you seem to think we don't like Gine because of her "class" or because she is "rich" despite you being told multiple times that this is not the case.
> 
> Your mentality is truly remarkable. You hold rich people on such a high pedestal, that it is apparently impossible for anyone to dislike them regardless of what they do - and if anyone does, it MUST be because they are rich - because clearly, they are without flaw and absolutely perfect in every way.
> 
> ...




Your attacks on me might make you feel good but they are :topic  The thread is "Importing Migrant Workers."


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## Starcraftmazter (9 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Your attacks on me might make you feel good but they are :topic  The thread is "Importing Migrant Workers."




That's quite rich coming from you, all you've done is attack people in this thread. By comparison I have done no such thing, but merely try to explain to you why you are so wrong indeed.


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## lurker123 (9 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> I have certainly stirred up a hornet's nest of Rinehart haters. Lurker and Macquack are joining Max, NC and Frog in their boring repetitious hate rants. Max applauds Lurker's nastiness and says he couldn't have done it better himself.




I wasn't joking when i posted that Australia is going to become a **** hole like the US.

The goal should be for China and other third world countries to rise up to the standard of living in Australia especially for the working class, not the other way around. What Gina clearly wants to do is lower our standard of living to that of China.

She wants to pay less and increase working hours. She wants to run her mines like foxconn runs their factories:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides. Probably would not pay her workers if she could get away with it, like how a large number of chinese construction workers didn't get paid after they have already done the work. Would probably try and cut costs like what the capitalists in China did with babies formula, substituting a toxic substance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal. Or what the chinese construction companies did when building houses/schools e.t.c so that even relatively minor earthquakes could wreak serious destruction and kill people. Too bad her customers probably demand proper quality of the extracted resource so that avenue is unavailable for her to exploit. 

In the last couple of decades from my memory the wages of the lower class in the US have not kept up with inflation. No doubt she wants it to be the same in Australia. 

Make no mistake I 100% believe what she and you want to happen will eventually take place. Australia will become a **** hole like the US, and the standard of living especially for the working class will drop down as China's standard of living rises. They won't be meeting halfway however, will be much closer to what China's standard of living is now, only slightly higher.

On the topic of immigration, its pretty obvious both sides of governments realize that the pension is unsustainable, hence they are trying to soften the blow. The only way for the pension to be sustainable is if we have unlimited population growth in Australia. There needs to be more working age people than old people. Hence more kids needs to be born to replace every working age adult. Like the giant families the baby boomers had. 
Both sides of government are trying to soften the blow through these three initiatives:
1) Introduction and extension of Superannuation
2) Baby bonus
3) Increasing immigration to Australia

Not hard to see why the liberal government despite being right wing supports paying bludgers to have tons of kids. Also not hard to see that despite the rights' racism in the past, why they currently are all for immigration.


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## Glen48 (9 June 2012)

There is not much point in increasing the population unless there are jobs available to my way of thing Gina will be in trouble  by not signing up deals before committing billions.
 Australia has been living beyond it's means for years and lifestyles can only comedown it is all a big melting pot at present.


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## lurker123 (9 June 2012)

True, the whole world is pretty much getting stuffed. But since i'm a conspiracy believer, i believe there is a chance that a boom will start again once all the debt has been inflated away.




			
				Calliope said:
			
		

> I have certainly stirred up a hornet's nest of Rinehart haters. Lurker and Macquack are joining Max, NC and Frog in their boring repetitious hate rants. Max applauds Lurker's nastiness and says he couldn't have done it better himself.




I'm not sure how you can say my comment was nasty.
1) With your ridicule of the left, you certainly are right wing and pretty much in the same vein as the Republicans in the US.

2) It is my opinion that the Republicans have been major contributors to stuffing up the US, therefore it is my opinion that you as a Republican will eventually turn Australia into what the US is now.


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## jank (10 June 2012)

So, the lunatics have taken over the asylum.


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