# Obama wins US Presidency



## sam76 (5 November 2008)

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) - Sen. Barack Obama completed his historic journey to the presidency Tuesday when the state of California gave him enough electoral votes to put him over the 270 needed to win the 2008 election over Sen. John McCain, making him the first person of African-American descent to become the nation's chief executive. The Democratic senator from Illinois completed his remarkable 21-month journey to win the election with a well-financed campaign that relied largely on small donations gathered via the Internet. Along the way, and he captured a number of states that usually vote Republican.


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## Agentm (5 November 2008)

told you so..


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## Green08 (5 November 2008)

I am  so excited!!!!!!

The real change can now begin!   I huge wonderful step towards the USA growing up!

297 when I last looked.


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## Green08 (5 November 2008)

They must be going crazy in Kenya!   where is Grandmother lives!   I'm So proud of him..


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## seasprite (5 November 2008)

Give us another happy DOW tomorrow. That will excite me and quite a few others I imagine.


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## Ageo (5 November 2008)

Green08 said:


> I am  so excited!!!!!!
> 
> The real change can now begin!




Hmmm i doubt he will change much, both candidates had similar economic policies which was to further put the U.S into more debt. 

The dow should rally tomorrow so perhaps a quick long call is on the cards.


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## prawn_86 (5 November 2008)

Thank god its over.

Can we stop talking about it now?


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## Julia (5 November 2008)

Where is Doris?   Has she passed out from sheer joy?


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## moXJO (5 November 2008)

Go Go Obama rally


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## CanOz (5 November 2008)

Yes, well done Obama!

I hope that he is a better President than GWB, as a minimum.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## derty (5 November 2008)

w00t!


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## tomsum (5 November 2008)

Grats to Obama! 

Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months...


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## Aussiejeff (5 November 2008)

Great result.

Great speech.

Good to see McCain so gracious as well.


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## springhill (5 November 2008)

CanOz said:


> Yes, well done Obama!
> 
> *I hope that he is a better President than GWB, as a minimum.*
> 
> ...




WOW talk about setting the bar low!!!!


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## Ashsaege (5 November 2008)

springhill said:


> WOW talk about setting the bar low!!!!




... no sh%t!

The dow usually heads north around elections... people's confidence is high. And after this election, with Bush's reign finally over, people's confidence will be sky high!


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## communique (5 November 2008)

I'm glad to see that Americans decided "yes they can" but I feel the poor man is up against an economic tsunamai that is too deep to fix, and he will be blamed if he doesn't. Also, this could be a red rag to a bull for all the extremists. I hope this man doesn't go the same way as a Kennedy as the result would be chaos.


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## fimmwolf (5 November 2008)

Let's hope things change for the better. Not just for American's, but for the world.


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## M34N (5 November 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Great result.
> 
> Great speech.
> 
> Good to see McCain so gracious as well.




Agreed, well done to McCain, I never liked him to be honest, but he is a gentleman. I wonder how he would of gone if he hadn't of elected Palin, but it's kind of hard for him to win when he had to clean up the mess of the GWB era.

I have no doubt Obama will become a great President, he is without a doubt an intelligent man, he'll be a breath of fresh air.

Most importantly, good riddance to GWB! He couldn't go out quick enough.


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## Pronto (5 November 2008)

So Mr Glib Empty Suit got up. The hip young black dude from the Stupid Party creamed the square has-been honky from the Evil Party. Well, hooray heaps, and two and a half cheers for the good ol' Hew Hess Ay. 

As usual, the triumphant man on the white horse will be found to have the usual feet of clay within twelve months.
The crowd now singing the loud hosannas will be among the first to be shouting 'crucify him'. 

Oh dear, we've seen it all before...


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## Panacea (5 November 2008)

communique said:


> I'm glad to see that Americans decided "yes they can" but I feel the poor man is up against an economic tsunamai that is too deep to fix, and he will be blamed if he doesn't.




Agreed. I think it's a great result, but Obama's got a massive job in front of him.


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## Panacea (5 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> So Mr Glib Empty Suit got up. The hip young black dude from the Stupid Party creamed the square has-been honky from the Evil Party. Well, hooray heaps, and two and a half cheers for the good ol' Hew Hess Ay.
> 
> As usual, the triumphant man on the white horse will be found to have the usual feet of clay within twelve months.
> The crowd now singing the loud hosannas will be among the first to be shouting 'crucify him'.
> ...




What is it with you conservatives? You can never give credit where credit's due. Sheesh!!


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## theasxgorilla (5 November 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Great result.
> 
> Great speech.
> 
> *Good to see McCain so gracious as well.*




Wasn't it?  I've felt so embarrassed for Americans these last eight years.  Finally we get back to grown-ups and men that can be respected...finally.


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## Panacea (5 November 2008)

theasxgorilla said:


> Finally we get back to grown-ups and men that can be respected...finally.




Obama certainly has a statesmen-like quality about him; a huge departure from GW's insular, self-aggrandizing bumbling. 

I hope Obama has the economic and foreign-policy skills to go with his public-speaking talents.


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## Buddy (5 November 2008)

Well.....there's not a lot of difference between McCain and Obama, apart from age and race.  Their policies were/are very similar. I don't have much hope that Obama will save America.

Why didn't you elect a true man of strength, integrity and ability? Ron Paul!


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## Nyden (5 November 2008)

I'm glad the American people got the leader they wanted - but I have a suspicion that they would have been happy either way. I think the main issue here was to rid themselves of Bush.


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## IFocus (5 November 2008)

theasxgorilla said:


> Wasn't it?  I've felt so embarrassed for Americans these last eight years.  Finally we get back to grown-ups and men that can be respected...finally.





Yes I always watch Bush looking for the fool mistakes where as I listen to Obama and enjoy the class


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## Smurf1976 (5 November 2008)

If there's one bit of great news it's that he's not a Warpublican. The last thing we need is another war. 

Now we just need to stamp out the religious fundamentalists. Unortunately that's not so easy...


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## 2020hindsight (5 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Thank god its over.
> 
> Can we stop talking about it now?




let's celebrate prawn,   it's champers in this house I can tell you. 

The world is a better place tonight !


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## fimmwolf (5 November 2008)

Buddy said:


> Well.....there's not a lot of difference between McCain and Obama, apart from age and race.  Their policies were/are very similar. I don't have much hope that Obama will save America.
> 
> Why didn't you elect a true man of strength, integrity and ability? Ron Paul!




Ron Paul has said that he considers himself a constitutionalist. 

It's interesting to note that Barrack Obama taught constitutional law from 1992 to 2004.

So I think you'll find they have much in common.


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## sassa (5 November 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> The world is a better place tonight !




Noticed the exclamation mark.Tongue-in-cheek?No?If not,why is the world a better place tonight?This man has inherited possible unsolvable problems.


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## sam76 (5 November 2008)

Chuck Norris would have had it in the bag if he ran.


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## Green08 (5 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> As usual, the triumphant man on the white horse will be found to have the usual feet of clay within twelve months.
> The crowd now singing the loud hosannas will be among the first to be shouting 'crucify him'.
> 
> Oh dear, we've seen it all before...




I, and many others are well aware of this.  Your cynicism is antagonistic.
He said he may not be able to change in one year maybe not in his 4 year term but he will ibegin change.  He is has been open about this many times.  

I said months ago that who ever took this on had a huge mess to clean up.  Especially the Iraq War, which he apposed in the first place.  

I also mentioned that who ever was elected would be given a hard time - don't need a crystal ball.

Why can't you just be happy that he has made a huge historical change in many ways - a true inspiration.  Are you racist? Constant pessimistic outlook?

You need reruns of the NRL to keep you happy.  Not an intelligent word from you, always criticism.  Let's see could you turn it around in 4 years?

He has taken so much abuse during this campaign and always held his dignity.  I pretty sure world leaders are ecstatic and will enjoy conversing with a President of intelligence over the last 8 years a huge relief from GWB.

Prawn, it will never really be over if people keep looking to the USA as The Financial Centre of the World of Dow, NASDAQ and NYSE.

2020 - we were celebrating the second is was announced, why not indulge in some happiness for a change!  GWB is going that has made my day.


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## M34N (5 November 2008)

sam76 said:


> Chuck Norris would have had it in the bag if he ran.




Too busy with all those Miss World contestants? 

Green08 and others, don't bite the bait, for if you can't see GWB was the best leader in Earth's history, then you are clearly delirious. Yes, GWB was by far an inspiration and will be loved for his peaceful ways and ability to use diplomacy.

Yes, indeed.

I feel sick for having typed that up.

Good riddance to GWB, he can't leave soon enough, and I truly look forward to hearing from an American President that can actually pronounce vowel's and doesn't use war as his first option.


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## sam76 (5 November 2008)

M34N said:


> Too busy with all those Miss World contestants?
> .




You know it, Bro.


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## Boggo (5 November 2008)

There are similarities between Obama and the greatest president that America has ever had, namely Abraham Lincoln, including the fact that they both came from Illinois.

One difference however is that Abe Lincoln was actually in politics for *less* time than what Obama was before he was elected.

My


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## Panacea (5 November 2008)

I've been so distracted by the occasion of Obama's win that I hadn't really thought about Bush's demise. The contrast between the two men is remarkable. Good riddance Dubya.


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## 2020hindsight (5 November 2008)

Boggo said:


> There are similarities between Obama and the greatest president that America has ever had, namely Abraham Lincoln, including the fact that they both came from Illinois.
> 
> One difference however is that Abe Lincoln was actually in politics for *less* time than what Obama was before he was elected.
> 
> My



boggo
and a brilliant 2 cents as well


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## Garpal Gumnut (5 November 2008)

A very definitive win.

He'll make a great President and be an inspiration to millions in his own country and around the world.

Obama's victory speech was excellent, as was McCain's gracious acceptance of defeat.

gg


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## gav (5 November 2008)

Green08 said:


> 2020 - we were celebrating the second is was announced, why not indulge in some happiness for a change!  GWB is going that has made my day.




Ummm, hate to break it to ya, but GWB is leaving in Jan, no matter who was voted in...

Did u only find out today that GWB wont be the US pres after Jan?


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## BeterValue (5 November 2008)

fimmwolf said:


> Let's hope things change for the better. Not just for American's, but for the world.




I think that not one person will disagree with you.  But he's got a big job in front of him.


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## Green08 (5 November 2008)

gav said:


> Ummm, hate to break it to ya, but GWB is leaving in Jan, no matter who was voted in...
> 
> Did u only find out today that GWB wont be the US pres after Jan?




Gav of course I understand that the "official" duties begin in January however, as of tomorrow he will be in meetings with advisors on many fronts. They said due to the disaster of the USA he can't waste time.  So I believe that by the time he ready to take the reins he will be up on situations to act more swiftly.

But Bush is gone......It still is making my night


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## Julia (5 November 2008)

For some years now I've felt cynical about all things political, but I surprised myself today by feeling a sense of hope that perhaps there might now come about some gradual change which might restore some pride to America, and as a consequence to her allies.

Senator McCain's supporters can feel immensely proud of their candidate's graciousness in defeat today.   If he puts into practice the co-operation he described in his speech today, and if Obama lives up to his promises of a shared future, we can all feel some optimism, along with the immense relief that the worst president ever (even including Nixon) will shortly fade into obscurity.

I can't begin to imagine how African Americans of a generation who can remember being segregated must be feeling tonight.   I wish Barack Obama success and support in every way.


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## chops_a_must (6 November 2008)

It's great for the US.

I just think it's a pity that he has perhaps come at such a bad time, and may not be able to institute the social reform that is so desperately needed in the US.

The US needs worldly leaders. The population being dominated by the religious right and anal retentive almost mandates this. Obama will be almost exactly the sort of leader they need.

Bringing them out into the world with the populace not actually realising.

But I will miss those Buschisms. -sniff- 

Imagine voting or having supported Bush. All those churchies that voted for him on mass should be crucified for the damage they have brought on the world... 

I hope the crimes of this administration are not left unpunished. I mean ****, they impeached someone because of his private relationships, but have completely ignored things that have massively materially affected their lives?


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## Ageo (6 November 2008)

Whats interesting about this all if Obama was white instead of black i wonder if things would be different? i mean he said a 106yr old black women voted for the 1st time???? Racism definately ruled this election.


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## Aussiejeff (6 November 2008)

Smurf1976 said:


> If there's one bit of great news it's that he's not a Warpublican. The last thing we need is another war.
> 
> Now we just need to stamp out the religious fundamentalists. Unortunately that's not so easy...




With impeccable timing, the US military have just admitted today to wiping out another 40 or so Afghan civilian men, women and children at YET ANOTHER air strike on a wedding party. Of course, they have offered a sincere "Sorry" and condolences and promised to have YET ANOTHER military inquiry (read - total whitewash).

The Afghan President has begged the incoming U.S. President to help "stop the killing of Afghan civilians by the US military".

Good luck, Obama.... 

I wonder how the Military War-Hawks regard the election result?

I suspect a lot more "collateral damage" will be inflicted on the populaces of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan over the coming weeks in a series of increased air strikes while GWB "tidies things up" on his watch. Wouldn't mind betting ol' warhorse GWB "unconditionally pardons" a whole dang heap of soldiers awaiting sentencing or trial in military courts for the proven or suspected murder or manslaughter of Iraqis, Afghans etc..etc. Apparently, it is the God-given right of a departing President to do so.



aj


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## Panacea (6 November 2008)

Ageo said:


> Whats interesting about this all if Obama was white instead of black i wonder if things would be different? i mean he said a 106yr old black women voted for the 1st time???? Racism definately ruled this election.





I doubt it would be different. African-Americans make up 13% of the US population, so even if they voted in record numbers this time Obama still needed very strong support from white America, which he got. 

Race played a part, obviously. But it's an exaggeration to say that "Racism ... ruled this election". McCain would be 80 years old if he saw out 2 terms, and he represented the George Bush party.


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## Wysiwyg (6 November 2008)

U.S. presidency is not a goal pursued by many, hence the two choices.I think most people simply voted against McCain rather than for Obama.


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## Bushman (6 November 2008)

Ageo said:


> Whats interesting about this all if Obama was white instead of black i wonder if things would be different? i mean he said a 106yr old black women voted for the 1st time???? Racism definately ruled this election.




His mother is white? 

Racism did not 'rule' this election - the economy and Bush failed presidency ruled this election. 

'Racism' is a colonial concept used to gain economic control over African land and to support slavery. This then 'morphed' into 19th and 20th century popular culture as the Church propagated the concept in support of the theocracies that ran the European and American economies at the time.  

Race is no longer a relevant concept in the 21st century.  To say this was a 'race based' election is absurd IMO.


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## Ageo (6 November 2008)

Finally some decent points!, i stand corrected. 

Now on a side note who thinks Obama is really about change?? and if yes please explain.......


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## trishaltbr (6 November 2008)

Expectations are so high of him that chances to get disappointed are very high too. Beginning of new era, or so I hope.


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## Julia (6 November 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> U.S. presidency is not a goal pursued by many, hence the two choices.I think most people simply voted against McCain rather than for Obama.



I'm not sure that's right.   I think McCain was up against impossible odds, not just from Obama, but even more because of the Party he represents.  Given the state of America and the immense unpopularity of GWB, McCain did remarkably well to achieve the result he did.

I admired his endless energy for his age, and his concession speech was one of the best I've ever heard.  I could have lived with McCain as President, but not Palin as VP.

And I completely disagree that the election was about race.


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## Calliope (6 November 2008)

Race didn't win the election It did however bring out a lot of first time voters. But Bill Hayden's drover's dog could have won this election after the Republican mess of the last four years.


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## Pronto (6 November 2008)

Boggo said:


> There are similarities between Obama and the greatest president that America has ever had, namely Abraham Lincoln, including the fact that they both came from Illinois.




I hate to rain on your parade but Lincoln (Republican), (along with Franklin Roosevelt, Democrat), was probably the worst president that the USA ever had. Lincoln has to shoulder most of the blame for the 600,000 killed in the War of Northern Aggression (the so-called Civil War). 

Among other things, Lincoln also suspended habeas corpus, jailed the Chief Justice and hundreds of his political opponents and critics of his administration. Lincoln was never an opponent of slavery (except as it suited his political ends) and in fact he disliked negroes and wanted them repatriated to Africa. 

The war was much more about centralism vs federalism and particularly protection vs free trade and the source of federal revenues. No (other) country has fought a war exclusively about slavery, including the US. While slavery was admittedly in the mix, Lincoln forced the war by invading the South (Fort Sumter was an excuse) for his own ends. 

Like many others you have been caught up in the Lincoln hagiography. It's probably time that you gave up swallowing the standard propaganda myths and started researching and thinking for yourself. 

You are right about one thing; they both come from Illinois. Obama, however, is from Chicago, one of the most politically corrupt cities in the country.


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## Knobby22 (6 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> I hate to rain on your parade but Lincoln (Republican), (along with Franklin Roosevelt, Democrat), was probably the worst president that the USA ever had. Lincoln has to shoulder most of the blame for the 600,000 killed in the War of Northern Aggression (the so-called Civil War).
> 
> Among other things, Lincoln also suspended habeas corpus, jailed the Chief Justice and hundreds of his political opponents and critics of his administration. Lincoln was never an opponent of slavery (except as it suited his political ends) and in fact he disliked negroes and wanted them repatriated to Africa.
> 
> ...





How could you call Franklin D Roosevelt one of the worst Presidents ever? His policies helped end the Great Depression and set up the US well for WW11. Most scholars rate him one of the best Presidents, some say the best.


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## haunting (6 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> I hate to rain on your parade but Lincoln (Republican), (along with Franklin Roosevelt, Democrat), was probably the worst president that the USA ever had. Lincoln has to shoulder most of the blame for the 600,000 killed in the War of Northern Aggression (the so-called Civil War).




In your view, who is the best President the USA has ever had?


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## Pronto (6 November 2008)

Knobby22 said:


> How could you call Franklin D Roosevelt one of the worst Presidents ever? His policies helped end the Great Depression and set up the US well for WW11. Most scholars rate him one of the best Presidents, some say the best.




Well, I suppose it's a function of what schools the scholars attend. Roosevelt, rather than ending the depression,  prolonged it by at least a decade and the economic system didn't fully recover until after the war. His three terms saw the greatest government intervention and flirtation with socialism that the US has been involved in. It was Keynesianism at its worst and had the usual disastrous results. 

Echoes of his policies still endure; the recent fiasco with Fannie May and Freddie Mac are a legacy of FDR. I have no doubt that his actions were well intentioned (as far as they strengthened his political position) but as always with government intervention, it's so often about the unintended consequences. Had his administration left well alone, the depression would have been over much quicker and probably been much less severe.

Roosevelt provoked the Japanese sufficiently to cause the attack on Pearl Harbour. There is strong evidence that he knew of the impending attack but turned a blind eye. He knew that it would inflame US public opinion sufficiently to make the war palatable.

In his latter years (admittedly as a sick man) he was completely blind-sided by Stalin at Yalta and elsewhere and effectively lost Eastern Europe to the Soviets and largely precipitated the Cold War. 

I'm at a loss as to know why he is touted as the 'best', except perhaps for his leadership during the war.


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## 2020hindsight (6 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> ...
> Roosevelt provoked the Japanese sufficiently to cause the attack on Pearl Harbour. There is strong evidence that he knew of the impending attack but turned a blind eye. He knew that it would inflame US public opinion sufficiently to make the war palatable.  ...



So I think you're talking about  WWII - the one that started in 1941? 

say Pronto, was it a good thing or a bad thing if FDR manipulated US public opinion, and made US participation in the war "palatable"?  

Thanks for your help btw, but we were there in 1939 - on principle of sorts


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## haunting (6 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> Well, I suppose it's a function of what schools the scholars attend.




So what function of school is yours and who is the best president in your eyes?


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## Pronto (6 November 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> So I think you're talking about  WWII - the one that started in 1941?
> 
> say Pronto, was it a good thing or a bad thing if FDR manipulated US public opinion, and made US participation in the war "palatable"?
> 
> Thanks for your help btw, but we were there in 1939 - on principle of sorts




Oh good, I thought we were going to be denied your erudition. 

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what are you talking about? Who's help?, who's we? 

I doubt if you were around at the time. If you were, you would have been cheering on Hitler's cause up until June 1941 when he invaded Russia. That's what all the other  Lefties were doing at that time (on the instructions of the Comintern).


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## Pronto (6 November 2008)

haunting said:


> In your view, who is the best President the USA has ever had?




To ask this question is to miss the point on what the President is really meant to be. The American founding fathers never wanted another 'King George III' over them, but over time that is exactly what the US has ended up with; an Imperial Presidency.

The US was intended to be a federation of sovereign states. At one stage it was mooted that the President would be drawn from among the State Governors on a rotation basis and for a limited period only; a 'first among equals' approach.

The sovereignty of the States and the federation has been gradually eroded and was effectively killed off by the so-called Civil War. Power has been progressively centred on Washington and to the person of the President. Much the same thing has happened here as power becomes more centralised in Canberra and the States become less important as political entities. The Australian Senate's role  as the States' House is largely ignored. 

The American founding fathers also abhored 'democracy'. This was seen as the tyranny of the majority (i.e. the mob) who could be whipped up by demagoguery or otherwise. Nowhere in the US Constitution, Articles of Association or Declaration of Independence does the word 'democracy' ever occur. Personal liberty is guaranteed by the constitution and is not (or should not be) dependent upon any other source.

My favorite President will be the one who takes the USA to a contemporary version of what was originally intended. And this is identical to what I would like to see in this country:

Personal liberty
Small government
Free markets

Do I think that this will occur with Rudd, Obama or, for that matter, either political party here or in the USA. 

You tell me!


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## 2020hindsight (6 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> Oh good, I thought we were going to be denied your erudition.
> 
> Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what are you talking about? Who's help?, who's we?
> 
> I doubt if you were around at the time. If you were, you would have been cheering on Hitler's cause up until June 1941 when he invaded Russia. That's what all the other  Lefties were doing at that time (on the instructions of the Comintern).



ok - you're not American - apologies.
Still my point was that you implied that manipulation of US public opinion by FDR was a bad thing. 

PS and conversely, I certainly have no idea of what you're talking about cheering for Hitler 
I'm guessing you're lumping together everyone who cheered for Hitler under one umbrella - sheesh Prince Edward, probably Mrs Simpson,  Joe Kennedy , etc etc


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## 2020hindsight (6 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> .... That's what all the other  Lefties were doing at that time (on the instructions of the Comintern).



btw pronto - make sure you watch Chifley's Battle for Coal - Labor taking on the Commos post war .. currently on TV - you might find that some of those sweeping generalisations of yours are pretty inaccurate.  



> Infamous Victory: Ben Chifley's Battle For Coal
> Thursday, November 6, 8.30pm
> Channel: ABC1
> Using rare archival footage and re-creations, this dramatised documentary takes viewers into the corridors of power to show how Labor Party leader Ben Chifley took on and defeated the growing forces of communism in Australia.




PS I'm not saying I'm not enjoying your posts - no links but never mind - just that some of your generalisations are a bit strange.


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## Julia (6 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> My favorite President will be the one who takes the USA to a contemporary version of what was originally intended. And this is identical to what I would like to see in this country:
> 
> Personal liberty
> Small government
> Free markets



Amen to that!


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## chops_a_must (7 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> I doubt if you were around at the time. If you were, you would have been cheering on Hitler's cause up until June 1941 when he invaded Russia. That's what all the other  Lefties were doing at that time (on the instructions of the Comintern).



Lol...

yeah...

because those "lefties" would not have been fighting the fascists in Spain. Nope. Not at all... 

I think you'll find most who supported Hitler were linked in some way to big business (in the US at least). You know, people like Prescott Bush, Thomas J. Watson, head of IBM who helped set up Dehomag - which allowed for the massive amounts of Jewish deaths.

I am actually yet to read any prominent "leftie" during that time that supported Hitler to be honest.


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## Aussiejeff (7 November 2008)

*NEWS*

ITALIAN Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi today praised US election victor Barack Obama as "young, beautiful and tanned" and said the world saw him as a messiah.

*NEWS*

Tanned? 

I hope he didn't use any nasty solariums to achieve his all-over "tan"! 

Cracks me up....... ROFLMAO!! What WAS Silvio on when he made those comments?


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## chops_a_must (7 November 2008)

Talented. 

But it wouldn't be beyond belief to think that this far right leader has never seen a black man.

Especially considering the only time Howard had seen a black man was on his Dad's slave ranch.


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## haunting (7 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> To ask this question is to miss the point on what the President is really meant to be. The American founding fathers never wanted another 'King George III' over them, but over time that is exactly what the US has ended up with; an Imperial Presidency.




Ok, let me ask again, who are the good presidents in your eyes?


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## Ageo (7 November 2008)

Pronto said:


> My favorite President will be the one who takes the USA to a contemporary version of what was originally intended. And this is identical to what I would like to see in this country:
> 
> Personal liberty
> Small government
> Free markets





Ron Paul???


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## sam76 (22 November 2008)

Clinton Is Said to Accept Offer of Secretary of State Position 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/us/politics/22obama.html?_r=1&hp


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