# The Phoenix Scenario



## waza1960 (19 January 2010)

Well fellow ASFers I have decided to decribe the scenario in which I find myself .I have done this for two reasons firstly so that some of the wiser and more experienced can offer *constructive* advise/ comments and also to show some of the newbies some of the possible steps that can be taken on the long road to trading success.
*Firstly some history* I have being trading part time for two years but have owned shares since 2001.I have traded CFDS and blown two accounts 10K each time.
*Education:*I have most of the popular trading books of which I have read I have subscribed to a Australian Stock Report I am nearly finished a diploma course in share trading,I am a member of the ATAA and went to this years conference.I have done a few other small workshops.I have Amibroker and Howard Bandys books and some other trading software.
Present Situation:After owning my own business for 20years I had to close it down due to financial and health reasons.
I am from the 01/01/2010 devoting myself to the study and mastery of the market.
I have 12k to trade with but no more if I lose that money I will find it very difficult if not impossible to get more due to my disability.
I don't need an income for at least the next two years
I feel that I would like to start swing trading at first,hourly or daily chart probably in a couple of months after more study . I like some Gann but not too keen on indicators my study so far has steered me towards a more classical T/A approach.I am really interested in amibroker and Howard Bandy's books.


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## waza1960 (19 January 2010)

One of my recent dilemas is do I stay with a CFD provider ( IG) or would I be better off opening an account with IB so I could use their paper trading account. Also will I be able to come up with a low risk system showing positive expectancy until I become familiar with Amibroker or should I study for another few months and use amibroker from the start.


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## nomore4s (19 January 2010)

waza1960 said:


> One of my recent dilemas is do I stay with a CFD provider ( IG) or would I be better off opening an account with IB so I could use their paper trading account. Also will I be able to come up with a low risk system showing positive expectancy until I become familiar with Amibroker or should I study for another few months and use amibroker from the start.




Waza,

With only 12k to trade and having already blown up 2 10k CFD accounts I would move the IB and use the demo account to come up with some strategies and systems that actually work.

I would also probably recommend trading at least the daily charts to start with. Intraday trading opens you up to losing a lot of money very quickly, which it sounds like you have already found out.

If you don't need any income for 2 years I would take your time to learn how to use amibroker and develop a trading plan and strategies that will allow you to be successful over the long term.

The other problem you are going to have is you are seriously underfunded to make any serious money unless you have some serious skill. With 12k you would be lucky to pull 5k a year from the markets at this stage imo.
I would spend the next 12 months saving as much as you can and in the mean time try to develop a system that is robust and works by trading on IB's demo platform, and then you can either trade it through IB a bit more conservatively or take it back to the CFD account and leverage it up to try and increase your profits. Obviously both would have positives & negatives.

Take your time and develop the skills and understanding needed to succeed. This will not be easy and will require a lot of hard work, focusing on the right things. Because if you don't do this, the odds are probably that you will blow up a 3rd account.

Good luck


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## Mr J (20 January 2010)

Warning, take this post with a grain of salt. It's not really advice, just something to consider (I like to hear many opinions myself).



> I have 12k to trade with but no more if I lose that money I will find it very difficult if not impossible to get more due to my disability




Then obviously you don't want to lose it. Like Nomore4s suggested, join IB and use their paper trading account, and trade it until the results and your own confidence are strong. I wouldn't focus on making systems, but just try to develop a trading philosophy and then build something around that. I think a good idea is to visit the popular forums and read through trading system threads. There are some real gems out there, and you should get some ideas.



			
				Nomore4s said:
			
		

> The other problem you are going to have is you are seriously underfunded to make any serious money unless you have some serious skill.




Needing no income for 2 years helps, but it seems that means you want to be living off trading within 2 years, starting with 12k. Not a high probability situation for most people. I think this forces you into shorterm trading - the growth will be greater and more consistent over a period of time. Unfortuntately, it is also harder because commissions and spread will be more significant.



			
				Nomore4s said:
			
		

> Intraday trading opens you up to losing a lot of money very quickly, which it sounds like you have already found out.




With just 12k I think he'd need to trade intraday to have any kind of reasonable chance. Yes, he could lose money faster, but he shouldn't be trading real money until there's a high confidence that he's profitable.



			
				Waza said:
			
		

> Also will I be able to come up with a low risk system showing positive expectancy until I become familiar with Amibroker




Just concentrate on that "low risk +ev system". That alone would be all you need, provided there are a good number of opportunities. Well, for decent results, but decent may not be enough.


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## waza1960 (26 January 2010)

> The other problem you are going to have is you are seriously underfunded to make any serious money unless you have some serious skill. With 12k you would be lucky to pull 5k a year from the markets at this stage imo.
> I would spend the next 12 months saving as much as you can and in the mean time try to develop a system that is robust and works by trading on IB's demo platform, and then you can either trade it through IB a bit more conservatively or take it back to the CFD account and leverage it up to try and increase your profits. Obviously both would have positives & negatives.



thanks for your thoughts. I am unable to save any money in the coming two year period.
I do feel a lot more confident this time as the first time I had no money management and the second time I was following fundamentals this time I intend to only trade after I have a properly back tested system.


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## skc (27 January 2010)

If I can take a step back from the trading and ask your expectation of trading?

As pointed out earlier, you cannot make serious money out of $12K unless you take some serious risk and get lucky. What is your plan after 2 years (during which you are not worrying about income but unable to save). Do you then have to generate an income on whatever captial you have left / accumulated?

If your longer term plan is to live off that trading capital, then I will say think again... No matter how smart a system you come up with, your return will depend on market conditions. And because of that, the rule of thumb for trading for a living is that you need minimum 3x your desired income as capital. 

Say you need $20K p.a. to live, you need $60K captial. To turn your $12K into $60K in 2 years, it is not impossible but highly improbable.

If that is your expectation down the track, it will have an effect on the way you trade today and tomorrow. Wrong expectation can lead to wrong trading behaviour... just keep that in mind.

As to CFD vs IB... if you do short term and will be short selling, CFD is probably the way to go. If you are long only with lower brokerage and interests, IB probably has more advantages.

BTW...What is the Phoenix Scenario? Is it in reference to rising out of the ashes?


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## Trembling Hand (27 January 2010)

Hmmm lets see. A back of the envelope break-even analysis,

Monthly cost at bare min, 

Data 80 bucks (if you are lucky)
Internet 40 bucks.
Accountant 25 (if you are lucky)

Swing trading 20-40 trades per month @ $12 per RT = 240 - 480

Monthly cost = $385 - $625.

Yearly cost = $4620 - $7500

You are going to need 38 - 62% return in the first year just to stay level. Not including what you should actually purchasing, like real data, real software, backup internet, replace software and computer stuff, all the endless books to purchase looking for "the" edge etc.


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## waza1960 (27 January 2010)

> BTW...What is the Phoenix Scenario? Is it in reference to rising out of the ashes?



Exactly but in hindsight a little melodramatic


> As pointed out earlier, you cannot make serious money out of $12K unless you take some serious risk and get lucky. What is your plan after 2 years (during which you are not worrying about income but unable to save). Do you then have to generate an income on whatever captial you have left / accumulated?



I'm not interested in luck or high risk, I'm not looking past two years otherwise I would compromise my trading I can survive on a very low income for as long as it takes except that atm my wife is fully supportive and working and that may not continue indefinately.I don't have any goals as to the amount of money I take from the market except for the first step of making some small amount of money consistantly over a period of at least 3 months then I believe that I will be able to build on that. I have no expectations other than eventually I will be successfull.


> As to CFD vs IB... if you do short term and will be short selling, CFD is probably the way to go. If you are long only with lower brokerage and interests, IB probably has more advantages.



 A little more detail would be appreciated for example can you not go short with IB, also how much leverage do you actually get with IB


> Hmmm lets see. A back of the envelope break-even analysis,
> 
> Monthly cost at bare min,
> 
> ...



Internet and accountant and 6 months of data I have budgeted for outside of my trading account.
I don't own a lot of trading books looking for an edge but I love learning everything I can about the market .I believe that I have found the path to find my edge and I am going down that path. BTW TH good to have you back


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## Trembling Hand (27 January 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Internet and accountant and 6 months of data I have budgeted for outside of my trading account.
> I don't own a lot of trading books looking for an edge but I love learning everything I can about the market .I believe that I have found the path to find my edge and I am going down that path. BTW TH good to have you back




Yes but you are completely ignoring the drag of what will be your biggest cost and how that is going to be a huge hurdle to get over, Brokerage.

I can see in your mind the scenario of "if I just get over the first 3 months and get it to $20,000 I can relax" kind of thing but what will happen is in your haste to kick the account along you will be exposing it to greater cost/brokerage/risk and more than likely knock it down to $8000 before you know what hit you.

I would first spend a couple of hours away from trading data and spend the time in excel working on break even scenarios. Just to get it in your head about required return on small accounts.


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## waza1960 (27 January 2010)

> Yes but you are completely ignoring the drag of what will be your biggest cost and how that is going to be a huge hurdle to get over, Brokerage.
> 
> I can see in your mind the scenario of "if I just get over the first 3 months and get it to $20,000 I can relax" kind of thing but what will happen is in your haste to kick the account along you will be exposing it to greater cost/brokerage/risk and more than likely knock it down to $8000 before you know what hit you.
> 
> I would first spend a couple of hours away from trading data and spend the time in excel working on break even scenarios. Just to get it in your head about required return on small accounts.



Thanks for that TH I will look at doing some scenarios on excel. I must admit that is one area that I must spend a lot more time on before I start trading.I have no target in mind except to make some sort of small consistant profit in the next twelve months even if its only $100/month.If I had a scenario in mind such as you suggested I believe it would be a sure way to fail as I would be compromised in my trading.
I'm interested in having a look at eminis and FX to lower brokerage costs.


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## sammy84 (27 January 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Thanks for that TH I will look at doing some scenarios on excel. I must admit that is one area that I must spend a lot more time on before I start trading.I have no target in mind except to make some sort of small consistant profit in the next *twelve months even if its only $100/month.*If I had a scenario in mind such as you suggested I believe it would be a sure way to fail as I would be compromised in my trading.
> I'm interested in having a look at eminis and FX to lower brokerage costs.




$100 per month on your starting capital would be a 10% pa return. That's certainly not a given. For the first year I would say be happy with a breakeven result, ignoring the associated costs.


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## Wysiwyg (27 January 2010)

> Well fellow ASFers I have decided to decribe the scenario in which I find myself .I have done this for two reasons firstly so that some of the wiser and more experienced can offer constructive advise/ comments and also to show some of the newbies some of the possible steps that can be taken on the long road to trading success.



Wondering if there are any possible steps for newbies to be shown?


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## waza1960 (27 January 2010)

> Wondering if there are any possible steps for newbies to be shown?



The first step I can think of would be to position yourself so that you don't have any or little pressure to create a profit/income immediately. Also that a small Trading account size can be a disadvantage.Also its madness to trade until you are educated about the market and put in the necessary chart/practise time.


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## SmellyTerror (28 January 2010)

Minor contribution: 

1. IGMarkets has paper trading. Just open a demo account.

2. You'd be cutting it pretty close for IB's minimum to open an account ($US10,000), so don't buy too many more books if you want to go that way.

3. No-one needs TWO kidneys...


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## Ron88 (28 January 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Well fellow ASFers I have decided to decribe the scenario in which I find myself .I have done this for two reasons firstly so that some of the wiser and more experienced can offer *constructive* advise/ comments and also to show some of the newbies some of the possible steps that can be taken on the long road to trading success.
> *Firstly some history* I have being trading part time for two years but have owned shares since 2001.I have traded CFDS and blown two accounts 10K each time.
> *Education:*I have most of the popular trading books of which I have read I have subscribed to a Australian Stock Report I am nearly finished a diploma course in share trading,I am a member of the ATAA and went to this years conference.I have done a few other small workshops.I have Amibroker and Howard Bandys books and some other trading software.
> Present Situation:After owning my own business for 20years I had to close it down due to financial and health reasons.
> ...




D.R. Barton Jr. wrote:"Allow yourself and your strategy the luxury of time.  And don’t be surprised if lower stress and greater profitability follow close behind."  Maybe you should look into your mindset (the psychological aspect of yourself) before you proceed.  Evaluate yourself.  Evaluate your trading plans.  You may need to change a few techniques. And this may save you from sabotaging yourself again.  Justine Pollard wrote, "You can’t control the market the only thing you can control is how you manage your risk in the market." Take your time.


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## Trembling Hand (28 January 2010)

Ron88 said:


> Justine Pollard wrote, "You can’t control the market the only thing you can control is how you manage your risk in the market." Take your time.




She mustn't be a very good trader then. :


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## skc (28 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> She mustn't be a very good trader then. :




Or she hasn't a very large account.


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## Ron88 (28 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> She mustn't be a very good trader then. :




Then she shouldn't have been featured in different books to mention just a few "*Real Traders, Real Lives, Real Money*" By Eva Diaz; "*20 Most Common Trading Mistakes*" By Kel Butcher and soon to be published "*Ms Millionaire*" By Fiona Jones and Rebecca Griffin.  Or her own book *Smart Trading Plans *won't be hailed as one of the Top 10 Best Selling Finance Books in Money Magazine along with Warren Buffett. 

We are not here to compete who's who in the market.  We are supposed to be here to create and help each other get rich like those people who have already made it.     

I do not know with you but that is how I see things.:


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## Trembling Hand (28 January 2010)

Ron88 said:


> We are not here to compete who's who in the market.  We are supposed to be here to create and help each other get rich like those people who have already made it.
> 
> I do not know with you but that is how I see things.:




LOL. Travel your own path dude, then come back when you have survived and prospered.

good luck.


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## >Apocalypto< (28 January 2010)

Ron88 said:


> Then she shouldn't have been featured in different books to mention just a few "*Real Traders, Real Lives, Real Money*" By Eva Diaz; "



*

Eva Diaz is marketing tool of CMC LOL it's so bad, she has strings in her back leading to their head office! She wrote a book on CFD's, just about every second and thrid word was CMC or Market maker.... LOL Eva Diaz!

Some of this crap is a good as I am seeing at ForexFactory ATM!*


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## waza1960 (28 January 2010)

> 1. IGMarkets has paper trading. Just open a demo account.



Have in the past as well as live account they were the ones who got my hard earned $ .


> 2. You'd be cutting it pretty close for IB's minimum to open an account ($US10,000), so don't buy too many more books if you want to go that way.



Thats my thought also and I'm not lookiing to spend anymore on education just review what I've got.



> 3. No-one needs TWO kidneys...



not that desperate yet lol



> D.R. Barton Jr. wrote:"Allow yourself and your strategy the luxury of time. And don’t be surprised if lower stress and greater profitability follow close behind." Maybe you should look into your mindset (the psychological aspect of yourself) before you proceed. Evaluate yourself. Evaluate your trading plans. You may need to change a few techniques. And this may save you from sabotaging yourself again



.
Agree with this although I don't need to evaluate myself any further however trading plans still need evaluation.
I know what went wrong the first two times won't be making those mistakes again .As long as I don't make different ones


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## professor_frink (28 January 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Agree with this although I don't need to evaluate myself any further however trading plans still need evaluation.
> I know what went wrong the first two times won't be making those mistakes again .As long as I don't make different ones




What were the mistakes that you made the first 2 times waza?


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## waza1960 (28 January 2010)

> What were the mistakes that you made the first 2 times waza?



 The first time feb to april 07 I was a typical newbie trading with no money management and I was running  my own business and under a lot of stress. I thought if I could make some money I would scale down the business and scale up the trading.In hindsight I was completely compromised as a trader and only knew a small amount about the market. The classic part of the situation was that after the first week I was up 3.5k thinking this was great even though life experience told me it was too good to be true.
*1st Lessons learned:*You must have proper money management above all else in trading,Don't trade if your not in a calm and relaxed environment and get yourself educated about the market before you trade.
The second time was last year when in the process of winding up my business and trading on the side I became convinced because of fundamentals that the Dow and the Aus $ were going down so I was shorting both on and off from about august to november last year.
*2nd lot of lessions learned:*A lot of self evaluation and,Trading on fundamentals is not my style.


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## professor_frink (28 January 2010)

waza1960 said:


> The first time feb to april 07 I was a typical newbie trading with no money management and I was running  my own business and under a lot of stress. I thought if I could make some money I would scale down the business and scale up the trading.In hindsight I was completely compromised as a trader and only knew a small amount about the market. The classic part of the situation was that after the first week I was up 3.5k thinking this was great even though life experience told me it was too good to be true.
> *1st Lessons learned:*You must have proper money management above all else in trading,Don't trade if your not in a calm and relaxed environment and get yourself educated about the market before you trade.
> The second time was last year when in the process of winding up my business and trading on the side I became convinced because of fundamentals that the Dow and the Aus $ were going down so I was shorting both on and off from about august to november last year.
> *2nd lot of lessions learned:*A lot of self evaluation and,Trading on fundamentals is not my style.




thanks for sharing waza

So if fundamentals aren't really your style, are you finding using technicals much better(even if it's just paper trading at this stage)?

In regards to trading in a calm and relaxed environment, that won't happen with only 12K so I'd be looking at selling a kidney, or just rent out parts of your body by the hour/evening if you can get away with it, and try and get some more capital if you really want to do it properly.

Have you found anything that you are good at yet, or failing that, just some area of trading that you enjoy? IMO you'll want to find what your strengths are and then start trying to build on them


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## Trembling Hand (28 January 2010)

professor_frink said:


> In regards to trading in a calm and relaxed environment, that won't happen with only 12K so I'd be looking at selling a kidney, or just rent out parts of your body by the hour/evening if you can get away with it,



lol



waza1960 said:


> *1st Lessons learned:*You must have proper money management above all else in trading,



 Waza I fear you actually haven't learnt whats important. Money management is just taking care of business - like making sure you open the door at 9:00 am if you have a retail shop. Yes its important and you have to do it but doing that one thing, like making sure you open the door, will not guarantee success.

Try answering the question again for us.

And as a hint its not,


waza1960 said:


> get yourself educated about the market before you trade.



 There's lots of people around here that know all the "stuff" about trading yet there's not the same amount that make $$'s.  go figure


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## brty (28 January 2010)

TH,



> There's lots of people around here that know all the "stuff" about trading




Would that be....

Cut your losses and let your profits run.
Buy high sell higher.
Never catch a falling knife.
The trend is your friend.

others??
I do almost the opposite to all the above, I must be a bad trader. 

brty


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## ThingyMajiggy (28 January 2010)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yes its important and you have to do it but doing that one thing, like making sure you open the door, will not guarantee success.
> 
> There's lots of people around here that know all the "stuff" about trading yet there's not the same amount that make $$'s.  go figure




So TH, if its not opening the door and knowing the stuff and being educated before you trade, what is it that makes you successful? Expectancy, patterns and skill?


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## waza1960 (29 January 2010)

> So if fundamentals aren't really your style, are you finding using technicals much better(even if it's just paper trading at this stage)?



Yes I find that T/A suits me I have always used it to some extent but I will use it more in the future.


> In regards to trading in a calm and relaxed environment, that won't happen with only 12K so I'd be looking at selling a kidney, or just rent out parts of your body by the hour/evening if you can get away with it, and try and get some more capital if you really want to do it properly



I still think there's a way of achieving this(not selling the kidney lol) have to find a market with the lowest brokerage costs/smallest lot sizes.What about fx micro account,eminis remember I'm not in a hurry to make money.


> Have you found anything that you are good at yet, or failing that, just some area of trading that you enjoy? IMO you'll want to find what your strengths are and then start trying to build on them



I'm heading towards system development using Amibroker/Howard Bandy's books.I'm good with computers,Mathematics etc so I feel this approach suits me.


> Waza I fear you actually haven't learnt whats important. Money management is just taking care of business - like making sure you open the door at 9:00 am if you have a retail shop. Yes its important and you have to do it but doing that one thing, like making sure you open the door, will not guarantee success



I see what your saying TH and agree, I guess what I was saying was that with such a small trading account I will need very good money management and since I have failed in those areas in the past it is very relevant to me.But I agree that money management and education are only steps along the way, of course a lot of money is made by trading educators so it is not surprising that this area's relevance to trading is exaggerated.


> Try answering the question again for us.



Well here's my list of important areas to study/lessons to be learned.I will leave the more experienced to prioritize the list:
Getting to know the characterisitcs of the market/security your trading intimately.
Chart time and more Chart itme
Studying the probablilities of patterns/ price action reacurring.
Positive Expectancy.
Designing properly back tested systems to lessen the psychological impact of trading.


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## nomore4s (29 January 2010)

Waza,

What time frame do you plan on trading?


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## Trembling Hand (29 January 2010)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> So TH, if its not opening the door and knowing the stuff and being educated before you trade, what is it that makes you successful? Expectancy, patterns and skill?




Taking the biz example just because you can open the door in the morn or make sure you have staff behind the counter etc, will not mean you should go into business.

What tells you you should go into business is a break-even analysis. That your returns from sales exceed expenses & depreciation & leaves some over for profit/growth. Then from there the smart biz owners know/find out what will effect that break-even level and are ever watchful of changes & improvements.

Waza blew up twice not because he used crap MM or that "Trading on fundamentals is not _his _style" or he forgot that "the trend is your friend"  or owning Amibroker or any other gumph you want throw in there. It all boils down to he blew up because he went into business without having any evidence that he was on the right side of break-even (sums of wins exceeds sums of losses + expenses). Nor under what circumstances put him on the right side.

How many times have it been said about back testing, forward testing and simming so you *know *you will be successful and why/when before you lay a dollar down?

If you have a lazy hundred thousand or two laying around you may survive the forward testing with real $'s risking 0.5% per trade BUT if you're skilless & luckless and in a hurry you will just blow another $10,000 account.


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## waza1960 (29 January 2010)

> Waza,
> 
> What time frame do you plan on trading?



Short term: Intraday to a couple of days max I have the time and I want the frequency.


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## MRC & Co (29 January 2010)

>Apocalypto< said:


> Eva Diaz is marketing tool of CMC LOL it's so bad, she has strings in her back leading to their head office! She wrote a book on CFD's, just about every second and thrid word was CMC or Market maker.... LOL Eva Diaz!
> 
> Some of this crap is a good as I am seeing at ForexFactory ATM!




LOL.  Owned.


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## professor_frink (29 January 2010)

waza1960]I'm heading towards system development using Amibroker/Howard Bandy's books.I'm good with computers said:


> Short term: Intraday to a couple of days max I have the time and I want the frequency.




Looks like you at least have a logical place to start your journey waza. Good luck with it


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## Trembling Hand (29 January 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Short term: Intraday to a couple of days max I have the time and I want the *frequency*.




Ok here is a tip to keep you in the game. Throw standard money management out the door. 1% -2% risked per trade is simply BS. Have that as a daily stop. 6% as a weekly stop. 20% as a stop all together and go back to sim.

Every day your job is to protect capital and get away from the daily stop, once you have 1-2% in the bag each day then start swinging. (that is of course after you KNOW you are profitable after many months)


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## Mr J (30 January 2010)

brty said:


> I do almost the opposite to all the above, I must be a bad trader.




I'm certain TH hates trading cliches, even though some of them are true :.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> So TH, if its not opening the door and knowing the stuff and being educated before you trade, what is it that makes you successful? Expectancy, patterns and skill?




Knowing what? Being educated in what? You need to trade to learn these things, or at least put in screentime.


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## ThingyMajiggy (30 January 2010)

Mr J said:


> Knowing what? Being educated in what? You need to trade to learn these things, or at least put in screentime.




Not sure what you mean here? Are those questions directed at me? 

I agree 100%, you need to trade, get the screen time, read what I was replying to, I was asking TH what he thinks it is. 

[rant]
Trouble is, 90% of us don't know the actual HOW TOs of things I believe, its all very well drumming this BS into them/us, but then what? So we know that we must do this or that, doesn't mean we know _how_ to. Hence why trader after trader goes down the same path, they may think they are on the right path but only to find out that its all a waste of time and a "BS cliche" and gets pummeled by the likes of TH, those that really know what they are doing. I think its a case of if you're lucky and hard enough to stay in this game, then you eventually discover what it takes after hours and hours of experience/testing/blowups/sorting through the BS, not after reading some "good advice" on the net. I wonder how many traders _actually_ change their ways after reading a good blog post/article? Its only until they get smashed by the market and it effects them hard that they start changing. Myself included.
[/rant]


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## waza1960 (31 January 2010)

This is some thoughts from" Reminiscences of a Stock Trader" that may be of
relevance here:The Types of traders-The newbie:who  knows nothing and everybody including himself knows it.
               The next or second grade of Trader:thinks he knows a great deal
 and makes others feel that way too . He has studied not the market itself but a few remarks about the market made by the next grade of Trader above him.He knows a few ways to keep from losing money that get the raw beginner and it is this type of trader that provides most of the profit to the 
brokerage firms.It is this trader who is always quoting the various rules of the game and knows all the don'ts that ever fell from the mouth of the old Stagers exept the principal one don't be a sucker!
Its hard not to think that a lot of posters belong to the above group and
that this is the reason that TH gets a little frustrated.


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