# Real Time Capture of Institutional Orders - ASX Equities



## Smack (12 May 2014)

Who can offer this service to me as a Day Trader?

I want to observe what trades these major firms are making on a daily/real time basis.

Not interested in 'Change in Directors Interest' and 'Change in Substantial Holding' - but rather actual trades.

i want to watch what the big institutions are doing - when do they buy and when do they sell. 

Any of you use this service?

Does it help you with your trades?

Smack


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## DJG (12 May 2014)

I think you would struggle to find a 'real time' service that is actually accurate.  You'd be better off figuring out what potentially is insto buying and selling by learning market depth.


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> Who can offer this service to me as a Day Trader?
> 
> I want to observe what trades these major firms are making on a daily/real time basis.
> 
> ...




That type of stuff is available in tick/order level databases housed by the brokers.  They don't tend to release it on time because it would disadvantage their clients who may be getting set.  They do make it available with a long lag for exactly the reasons you want it for.  In any case, you'd need to gather the information from several brokers to know what was happening in net terms. An alternative is to get it via the custodians, but they are never going to release this info to you either as it breaches confidentiality requirements. Bottom line, you are not going to get it live.

But.....if you are super smart....there are ways to get powerful information with what you can get your hands on as a retail stand-alone and profit from it in the way that you are imagining.  That's for you to figure out though.


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

thanks.

can you advise me what brokers make this data available with a long lag?

Smack


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> thanks.
> 
> can you advise me what brokers make this data available with a long lag?
> 
> Smack




Any broker with an insto desk and a separate retail/HNW team has this info because the trades are tagged with identifiers and thus can be classified.  Mate, unless you can write them at least $1m+ a year in bro, you aren't going to get it from even one of them. As I said, there is no picture to it unless you can get a decent cross section of the brokers supplying you this data.  Their teams have to massage the data for public use.  That sort of thing is reserved for insto.  But, it's just a phone call away and they can say "no". Nothing ventured etc..  All the best.


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

many thanks.

what tool(s) do you use to disseminate between retail and insto trades?

Smack


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> many thanks.
> 
> what tool(s) do you use to disseminate between retail and insto trades?
> 
> Smack




 You don't have to....


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## CanOz (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> Who can offer this service to me as a Day Trader?
> 
> I want to observe what trades these major firms are making on a daily/real time basis.
> 
> ...




Pretty much echoing what the other fellas have said here, the information you're referring to could quite possibly be the holy grail of trading/investing. IF the 'smart money' buys and sells to the 'dumb money' then following on the coat tails of the smart money is the best way to catch the turning points in the market. Its easier to follow deep pockets (I didn't say 'smart' pockets) in the futures markets than the equity market, IMO. In both markets the big boys try and hide their moves and accumulate or distribute using order types that make it difficult for anyone to really see them as being market moving. The trick is to learn where they become active, and when. 

This is called tape reading or order flow interpretation. 

The most well known trading desk that uses this method for profit in equities is likely SMB capital in the US. Propex also uses similar techniques on directional futures and likely equities as well.

If you're interested, young and eager, have some time on your hands you should try out.... www.propex.net.au


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

RetYg - so, you don't follow smart money?  if "you don't have to" - then how do you guage large volume hits made by large players?

CanOz - good info, what Technical Analysis tool(s) do you use to "read" tape or interpret "order flow interpretation"?


Smack


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## CanOz (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> RetYg - so, you don't follow smart money?  if "you don't have to" - then how do you guage large volume hits made by large players?
> 
> CanOz - good info, what Technical Analysis tool(s) do you use to "read" tape or interpret "order flow interpretation"?
> 
> ...




I think Dangaff mentioned them, but generally we use the Depth of Market, as well as the Time and Sales for futures. The depth tools are a little different for equities as it also shows the exchanges and the brokers on some markets. Perhaps the equity guys can comment on that...


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

CanOz said:


> This is called tape reading or order flow interpretation.




You'll also need to bear in mind that you will be up against HFT, whose ability to scan the market for these types of patterns and fish them out in an artificial-intel/adaptive manner will vastly exceed anything you can do short of linking 20 Nintendos together and rewiring/coding them for this purpose and even then, you need to sit inside the exchange pretending your are not doing anything.  They now make up 30%+ of daily trade and have fundamentally changed the way insto trades in and out.

I've kind of posted this elsewhere, but I'll repeat:

Coming into the market nowadays and trying to do this without being properly armoured is not like taking a knife to a gunfight.  In that scenario, the guy with a knife actually has a chance.


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> RetYg - so, you don't follow smart money?  if "you don't have to" - then how do you guage large volume hits made by large players?




I follow motivated flow.  I don't care if they are actually smart or not.  It is irrelevant for the time horizon. Flow is what matters for this type of idea. How they trade into the market will wildly differ by company, by stock and by motivation.  In that domain, there is no discernible advantage to be had.

So, the interesting part is...how you actually pull this off. Again, that's for you to do.


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## CanOz (12 May 2014)

DeepState said:


> Coming into the market nowadays and trying to do this without being properly armored is not like taking a knife to a gunfight.  In that scenario, the guy with a knife actually has a chance.




Nevertheless it is still possible to make money directionally trading index futures.


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

CanOz said:


> .....but generally we use the Depth of Market, as well as the Time and Sales for futures. ..




thanks CanOz.

Can you advise what distinct patterns / relationships you have observed with Time and Sales for futures?

Smack


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

DeepState said:


> ....I follow motivated flow.....




Thanks RtYg.

What is this?

Is it a formula, generic term, algorithm, etc?

How can i obtain this form of analysis?


Smack


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## CanOz (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> thanks CanOz.
> 
> Can you advise what distinct patterns / relationships you have observed with Time and Sales for futures?
> 
> Smack




I've posted several videos on YT and linked them to this site, have a look around for them...lots of good starting points.


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> Thanks RtYg.
> 
> What is this?
> 
> ...




Smack...motivated flow is where orders have some mustard on them for some reason.  You can find it without drawing a single chart.  How you do it is not in any textbook that I have seen or likely will ever see.  It is not in any formulation that will ever be published. If there was any coding involved, it will never see light of day.  It is, however, very cool.  The only way you are going to get it is doing it for yourself or else working for some pretty awesome shops that think this way and have the means to do it.  When you figure it out, though, you'll be struck as to how straight forward the concept is...just like any really good concept, the underlying basis for it can be written on a post-it pad.  That's about the limit of my disclosure.

I suspect that CanOz is right about futures.  The composition of the actors in that market allows certain things to work on the basis of certain types of straight forward technical analysis and arbitrage calculations.  I might just look into that...thanks CanOz, hope it's all going well in the transition!


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

thanks RtYg.

can't really do it myself, because i have not been provided sufficient clues about the mustard.

can you provide me any entree?

Smack


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

CanOz said:


> I've posted several videos on YT and linked them to this site, have a look around for them...lots of good starting points.




TahnskCanOz.


Smack


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

Smack said:


> thanks RtYg.
> 
> can't really do it myself, because i have not been provided sufficient clues about the mustard.
> 
> ...




Sorry Mate, that's why it works.  It's for you to figure out.  None of us had an instruction manual when we found it either.


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## DeepState (12 May 2014)

CanOz said:


> Nevertheless it is still possible to make money directionally trading index futures.




"I suspect that CanOz is right about futures."

Yep, you are. Just ran the first pass work. It's over the line for all the right reasons. The trade is rich. Totally awesome. Thanks again.


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## Smack (12 May 2014)

DeepState said:


> Sorry Mate, that's why it works.  It's for you to figure out.  None of us had an instruction manual when we found it either.




sell me a pen


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## CanOz (12 May 2014)

DeepState said:


> "I suspect that CanOz is right about futures."
> 
> Yep, you are. Just ran the first pass work. It's over the line for all the right reasons. The trade is rich. Totally awesome. Thanks again.




Its the most underrated trade going...must be one of the cheapest as well


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