# Losing money in property settlement



## Fleeta (20 May 2007)

Question - my girlfriend walks out on me after living together for over 2 years (in Victoria we are considered de facto) and thinks she is entitled to half of my share portfolio. Is this really true? Even though I built it up myself through good trades. Hardly seems fair given that she had no input in the decisions that I made and didn't have any cash interest in the outlay. Also, surely it would be after CGT and not value at date of split? Doing a bit of reading, the family court considers who made the various contributions, but has anyone had any real life stories to share in relation to this kind of property settlement on separation?? Any opinions on whether I will have to give half of it up? I'm getting legal advice but would appreciate any input.


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## clowboy (20 May 2007)

Sadly I think you will find she will get half.

I wish you the best of luck, times like that are always trying.

My brother lost half of everything HE had built up when his GF (been together two years) left him for someone else.  She contributed nothing and he even paid most of her tafe fees (IE she was a student)


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## It's Snake Pliskin (21 May 2007)

Fleeta said:


> Question - my girlfriend walks out on me after living together for over 2 years (in Victoria we are considered de facto) and thinks she is entitled to half of my share portfolio. Is this really true? Even though I built it up myself through good trades. Hardly seems fair given that she had no input in the decisions that I made and didn't have any cash interest in the outlay. Also, surely it would be after CGT and not value at date of split? Doing a bit of reading, the family court considers who made the various contributions, but has anyone had any real life stories to share in relation to this kind of property settlement on separation?? Any opinions on whether I will have to give half of it up? I'm getting legal advice but would appreciate any input.




Play hardball Fleeta. The world is full of leeches taking free rides.

Morally she has no right, convincing the PC brigade won't be easy.


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## stoxclimber (21 May 2007)

You should read the relevant legislation and if you cannot understand it, either get some legal advice, or post up the relevant sections of the legislation here and people might be able to give you a guidance as to what you're going into (although not a legal opinion of course).


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## carmo (21 May 2007)

Try and keep it amicable, otherwise your "legal advice" will end up with all your profits. I would try to negotiate with her, it will be cheaper in the long run.


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## Flying Fish (21 May 2007)

Always sign a pre-nup if living with someone for more than six months, I believe they are legally binding now. Also try and keep all your finances as secret as possible, if your partner is so interested in your money you know she has alterior motives. Thirdly try and hitch up with someone who makes more than you


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## KIWIKARLOS (21 May 2007)

You can always just start going to the casino withdrawing say 1-2 thousand from the ATM's, stash the money and keep doin it till its all gone. Take money out all over the place in cash at pubs, hotels everything.

Stash the cash away and claim that you spent it all on benders and gambling because you were distraut from the breakup. Obviously you can go out the next day and put it in your account but use the cash to live off and save everything that you make weekly.

You would be surprised how often people do this. I'm not sure how legal it is but if you dont want to be dodgy just spend it anyway on yourself mate, a holiday to Fiji via europe would look good ATM.


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## KIWIKARLOS (21 May 2007)

PS. I think that if you can show that she bought no feel input into the relationship money wise and you were providing for her most of the time thenyou won't loose half? Especially if you had seperate bank accounts etc


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## tech/a (21 May 2007)

I'm with Carmo--negotiate a settlement.

I'm with Kiwi. Make as much as possible disappear---you'll be in a stronger position to negotiate as there wont be as much there!
Call the ex after a month of making it disappear---youve been on a bender!
Take your time frustrate the bejeezes out of her,if she doesnt want to negotiate.Let her incure all the legal costs chasing YOU not you HER.

Get the settlement signed off and witnessed.

Then for the new one make sure she is wealthier than you!!
Date or Marry MONEY.


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## clowboy (21 May 2007)

KIWIKARLOS said:


> you can always just start going to the casino withdrawing say 1-2 thousand from the ATM's, stash the money and keep doin it till its all gone. Take money out all over the place in cash at pubs, hotels everything.
> 
> Stash the cash away and claim that you spent it all on benders and gambling because you were distraut from the breakup. Obviously you can go out the next day and put it in your account but use the cash to live off and save everything that you make weekly.
> 
> You would be surprised how often people do this. I'm not sure how legal it is but if you dont want to be dodgy just spend it anyway on yourself mate, a holiday to Fiji via europe would look good ATM.




Im not sure on this but I think they will calculate out her entitlements on the balances of accounts at the time of the relationship breakup, even if you have since spent the money.


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## macca (21 May 2007)

Go to the Doc and tell him you are depressed over the traumatic breakup, get referred to a Psyco.

Then act out your depression by going on a binge.

For this you need to draw out cash often from the various entertainment spots, hide it  

Don't tell the lady, just do it.

Is way more convincing if you have medical back up IMO.


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## marklar (21 May 2007)

Get yourself some QUALITY legal advice, unfortunately you will have to pay for it!

m.


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## grumpee boi (21 May 2007)

Fleeta,

Won't help you this time but next time enter into a "binding financial agreement" which is the term for the Aus pre-nup.  I am pretty sure that it is not limited to marriage partners or those considering marriage but extends to cohabitation situations.

BFAs can also be used for couples that choose to have most assets in one partners name for strategic reasons thus protecting the partner at risk (of loss).

Adam


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## deftfear (21 May 2007)

I would have thought that if you went to court, the judge would look at both of your assets prior to the relationship beginning (say $120,000) and your assets at the end (say $200,000). The increase in the assets ($80,000) since then would be divided into two, and she would get $40,000. They should also look at capital gains tax, but that makes the calculations more difficult. I'm not a lawyer, but that my understanding of how things might work. Regardless, you could use it as a bargaining chip.


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## Kimosabi (21 May 2007)

KIWIKARLOS said:


> You can always just start going to the casino withdrawing say 1-2 thousand from the ATM's, stash the money and keep doin it till its all gone. Take money out all over the place in cash at pubs, hotels everything.
> 
> Stash the cash away and claim that you spent it all on benders and gambling because you were distraut from the breakup. Obviously you can go out the next day and put it in your account but use the cash to live off and save everything that you make weekly.
> 
> You would be surprised how often people do this. I'm not sure how legal it is but if you dont want to be dodgy just spend it anyway on yourself mate, a holiday to Fiji via europe would look good ATM.




This concept is good but is best done at the horse races with the bookies, much less video surveillance than a casino...


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## KIWIKARLOS (21 May 2007)

Definitely thats a very good point, perhaps if you can get your assets down low enough doing this you can take half of hers  

Or better yet if you have any provocative photos im sure they are worth some money either on the internet or from your ex to not put them in all her friends and familys mail boxes (joke) :


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## Julia (21 May 2007)

If she will go to Mediation, you will have more chance of reaching an acceptable outcome than if you try to negotiate (or fight) with her on your own.  If you do it through the Dispute Resolution Service (attached to your Magistrates Court and usually free of charge), emotion will be kept to a minimum and you will both be given equal opportunity to express your points of view.

It cuts both ways.  When I left I copped the debt!


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## tech/a (21 May 2007)

Julia.

When I left I took the debt. (Back over 23 yrs ago.)

But that was a great bargaining tool when assets were divided up.


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## nomore4s (21 May 2007)

Julia said:


> If she will go to Mediation, you will have more chance of reaching an acceptable outcome than if you try to negotiate (or fight) with her on your own.  If you do it through the Dispute Resolution Service (attached to your Magistrates Court and usually free of charge), emotion will be kept to a minimum and you will both be given equal opportunity to express your points of view.
> 
> It cuts both ways.  When I left I copped the debt!




Good advice Julia.

I went through a pretty bad break up a number of years ago, with property involved. It can get quite messy, especially if she digs her feet in. I would recommend seeing a good lawyer and speaking to them about the various options. This is what I eventually did and everything seemed to run smoother. I would also do all communication regarding money/property etc through the lawyer (might be more expensive but alot easier mentally & emotionally). You may also find she might be a bit easier to deal with once she has recieved a letter from a lawyer.

Also Tech's advice of making her chase you is the way to go, especially if you are the one who is going to be giving her money... and make her do it through correct legal means ie written communication etc.

Good luck.


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## tech/a (21 May 2007)

Deftfear has the correct answer you'll find re legal standing.

So clear everything forward and make sure you have meticulous records of your contribution---particularly if you contributed more.
If its under $50K,I wouldnt sweat as solicitors will push for mediation as there is nothing in it for them.

In the long run thats where you'll end up.
Be hard nosed and only conceed (and very little) for a signed off FINAL settlement.
Give nothing until the end and as a jesture to finalise the situation.

The longer it gets drawn out the less she will settle for as she will get sick of it.

This is an old trick used by insurance companies.
Mind you if she placed something into the relationship I'm sure you wont mind giving her what really is hers---regardless of personal *emotional* opinion.

Be hard as nails but give the alternate easy solution.
The old hard way---go the legal fight
The easy way---lets sit down and work this out.


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## Kimosabi (21 May 2007)

This is pretty interesting.

My girlfriend ran up $30,000 worth of credit card debt(which she is thankfully now paying off).  I'm guessing I could protentially be liable for if anything untoward happened between us.

She also wants to buy a house, but I refuse to participate until she pays of her credit card debts and then gets the appropriate deposit, half of a 20% deposit.

By the time this all happens we should be well and truly into the housing bust and we can then buy something at a "Reasonable" price...


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## Quixis (21 May 2007)

Fleeta said:


> Is this really true?




In NSW yes it is, so probably Victoria as well.

Firstly, try and avoid mentioning ANY amounts of money or percentages to her. These will stick in her brain as absolutes.

Tell her that if she persists you'll be going after her assets. Tell her you'll go after the things she likes the most that are hers. Her cars, her paintings, things she treasures. I mean tell her if she wants to split things up then that's what you'll do and that nothing of hers is protected.

Or you'd rather settling it nicely.

Get proper legal advice. There are ways you can argue the input of each person into the relationship. But that's arguable and potentially costly. I mean how do you prove you did all the washing and washing up?  All she has to do is say she did it.

I'd say tell her "This is how it is" and tell her the benefit of accepting a settlement and not blowing it all on legal fees.

No one wins karma out of a legal battle.

PS.  It's a business transaction with no emotions.


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## jpy (21 May 2007)

Sorry Fleeta but if you are not very careful you may well lose half of everything you own plus legals . Your best course is to negotiate and have whatever you decide registered with the family law court or she may come back for bite #2 and that could realy hurt. Get the date of seperation recognised ASAP as anything you save is half hers too until it is recognisable legally.Make sure that her name is removed from any joint accounts that you may have. Dont forget the phone and utility accounts. The advice from deftfear is good and in a fair world would be acceptable. But as in buisness and trading all is not fair in Life. 
Lucky no Kids involved as this can realy get ugly


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## Wysiwyg (21 May 2007)

Sorry!


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## waza1960 (21 May 2007)

I personally wouldn't waste money on legal advise unless its free.The only thing worse than giving it to an ex that didn't deserve it is giving it to legal profession.Spend the money hide it etc as others have suggested its the only way.


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## Fleeta (21 May 2007)

Hey guys, thanks for all of your input it is much appreciated. My problems are:

- I am VERY transparent with what we have and every month I did a spreadsheet summarising our assets and liabilities (the only thing in both our names is the house and a joint savings account with $16k). She knows that I have $75k of shares and $25k of cash. I know that she has NO cash or shares. Although if I valued all her shoes, handbags, makeup at cost, I think she does have $100k!!!

- The date that we split is very clear cut - I don't think spending or hiding my $100k now would help my cause would it??

- I'm not sure about Deftear's concept of 'pre relationship assets' factor. When we first started going out, we both had nothing, but when we first moved in together, I had $87k whereas she had $43k. Does that count for something??

Maybe I should just get back together with her - It's not really worth losing $50k for - maybe that's the price for misery and nagging!


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## tech/a (21 May 2007)

Fleeta said:


> Hey guys, thanks for all of your input it is much appreciated. My problems are:
> 
> - I am VERY transparent with what we have and every month I did a spreadsheet summarising our assets and liabilities (the only thing in both our names is the house and a joint savings account with $16k). She knows that I have $75k of shares and $25k of cash. I know that she has NO cash or shares. Although if I valued all her shoes, handbags, makeup at cost, I think she does have $100k!!!




Personal effects cant touch.



> - The date that we split is very clear cut - I don't think spending or hiding my $100k now would help my cause would it??




Probably not to the legal profession BUT if she thought you had much less to fight for then the fight may not occure.



> - I'm not sure about Deftear's concept of 'pre relationship assets' factor. When we first started going out, we both had nothing, but when we first moved in together, I had $87k whereas she had $43k. Does that count for something??




Im sure he's right and YES the imbalance of starting capital does work IN YOUR FAVOUR.



> Maybe I should just get back together with her - It's not really worth losing $50k for - maybe that's the price for misery and nagging!





Trust me a great partner married or not is worth way way more than $50k even if your Flat broke.


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## nomore4s (21 May 2007)

Fleeta said:


> Maybe I should just get back together with her - It's not really worth losing $50k for - maybe that's the price for misery and nagging!




lol, maybe get back together and make her sign a pre-nup (after a period of time of course) then turf her: 

But seriously I would just go through it all now and get it over with so you can get on with the rest of your life. In five years you'll probably be alot better off (both financially & emotionally), as Tech says a good partner is worth alot more than $50K, I'd give up everything for mine.
Breaking up with my ex 5 or 6 years ago was one of the best things that happened to me(as hard as it was at the time), I'm now alot happier and alot better off. Short term pain for long term gain.


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## clowboy (22 May 2007)

Fleeta said:


> Maybe I should just get back together with her - It's not really worth losing $50k for - maybe that's the price for misery and nagging!




I don't know your exact circumstances, but if she only wants 50k and you have 100k in liquid assests + a house I would run to the courts and get that 50k in writing asap.

If she contributed 43k to the house, it's only costing you 7k, and surely the house has gone up?


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## Fleeta (22 May 2007)

Nah, she wants 50k plus half the equity in the house (which could be as high as $200k). She was always such a lovely girl but boy has she turned nasty now!


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## x2rider (22 May 2007)

H Fleeta 

 I'd get a proper valuation on your property for a start  and then you know what sort of numbers you are looking at . Then if you wanted to be fair with the split then work out the % that each of your initial deposit is now worth in the terms of equity in your house .   That should get the house taken care of and then sort out the rest by spending up large . 
 There are lots of things that you can do to store money . IE buy a first class around the world ticket  with all the trimmings and have the date put out for a year or so . This is basically cash and can be exchanged for such at any time for a small fee . 
 Another away is to get one of your mates to ring her up and then tell her that if she gets some of the money then he wants prepaid the loan that he gave you . ( which he didn't ) . That money that you came into the relationship had to come from somewhere . 

 But above all try and be nice . It will only cost you in the end . I was lucky withmy settlement  I came out with a loune suite and a coffee table and my boat .  I had children so didn't want to take anything aay from them that they were used to 

 Good luck dude
 Martin:horse:


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## BradK (22 May 2007)

What a nightmare... 

Yeah, go on a bender mate. Or sell your house to a mate for $1. Give her 50c.  

 

Good luck mate


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## Fleeta (22 May 2007)

Thanks guys for all the well wishes. I hope it will work out OK

I went to counselling with her to calm her down in the hope that maybe she will do the 'right thing' and accept that I made the money on the market and not take it....i'm not holding my breath though. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have been so honest and transparent with her, but you live and learn.

I was only joking about taking her back - happiness wins over money any day!


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## Broadside (22 May 2007)

Fleeta said:


> Thanks guys for all the well wishes. I hope it will work out OK
> 
> I went to counselling with her to calm her down in the hope that maybe she will do the 'right thing' and accept that I made the money on the market and not take it....i'm not holding my breath though. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have been so honest and transparent with her, but you live and learn.
> 
> I was only joking about taking her back - happiness wins over money any day!




I wouldn't regret being honest and transparent, you had to give the relationship a chance and hiding things undermines that trust....so be sensible about it next time you're in a relationship but don't be too cynical about it!  What would I know though I broke up with my ex 2 years ago.  She wasn't mercenary at all however.  Good luck anyway.


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## Smurf1976 (22 May 2007)

If you're going to take the cash out then how about using it to buy some small gold bars and literally bury them somewhere safe?

Yes I'm serious. Obviously there's the risk of a fall in the gold price (though the trend of the past few years is certainly up) but the metal itself won't rust or otherwise disappear and it's physically small enough to hide. I haven't done it myself but I'm told that there are some gold delers who will quite happily deal in cash for modest amounts. So lots of small bars rather than one big one.

From what I've seen happen to others, I'd certainly be leaving HER to chase YOU. Odds are she just gives up or settles for a relatively modest amount.

And never tell partners (or anyone else) about how much $ you have. One of the reasons I like my conservative 7 year old car and modest furniture etc is that it doesn't create an obvious impression of wealth and hence deters anyone looking for money (though I do happen to like the car anyway).


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## Broadside (22 May 2007)

Smurf1976 said:


> From what I've seen happen to others, I'd certainly be leaving HER to chase YOU. Odds are she just gives up or settles for a relatively modest amount.
> 
> And never tell partners (or anyone else) about how much $ you have. One of the reasons I like my conservative 7 year old car and modest furniture etc is that it doesn't create an obvious impression of wealth and hence deters anyone looking for money (though I do happen to like the car anyway).




sorry I think that is too cynical by half as are many of the views on this thread, am I totally naiive thinking that not every prospective partner is out to fleece me?  Maybe I'll be cynical when the time comes but I hope not, not a crack at you really smurf, am just surprised how widespread this view of "hide it from your partner" seems to be.


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## BlingBling (22 May 2007)

Ussing a trust would protect you wouldn't it?
Or are defacto's counted as family?


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## Smurf1976 (22 May 2007)

Broadside said:


> sorry I think that is too cynical by half as are many of the views on this thread, am I totally naiive thinking that not every prospective partner is out to fleece me?  Maybe I'll be cynical when the time comes but I hope not, not a crack at you really smurf, am just surprised how widespread this view of "hide it from your partner" seems to be.



I've just seen too many people pushed to the point of total destruction by what were, to those outside the relationship, rather obvious money hungry partners.

In one case I did very seriously consider stepping over the line and warning someone about what I thought was going on. So did a couple of others. Suffice to say that I wish I'd done so. 

This person has been an outright sitting duck. Reasonable job with a large organisation, own home, new vehicle, in good health, very sociable and generally too trusting. This is the second time he's been through a major relationship bust up and both would seem, from the outside, to have been motivated by money.

I've seen more than one other go through the exact same thing too. In all cases money stood out more than anything as to what it was really about.


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## moXJO (23 May 2007)

BlingBling said:


> Ussing a trust would protect you wouldn't it?
> Or are defacto's counted as family?




Trusts really need to be set up before you enter a relationship.Once your in one its hard to protect assets when things go bad.Cash in a safety deposit box in a family members name.


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## startrader (23 May 2007)

Hi Fleeta,

You’ve probably got more than enough good answers to your question, but having been divorced twice and having two brothers both divorced twice and all of us getting the raw end of the deal at some stage maybe my opinion might help.  It seems to me that if you are up against someone who is really determined, that you end up giving in to them just for the sake of peace and just to get the whole thing over and done with. They end up getting way more than is really fair because they made up their mind early on that that was what they were going to do.  I think that you should definitely find a way of “getting rid” of your share money (maybe temporarily give it to a trusted family member?).  I think you will find that the money is divided up at the date of the property settlement, not the date you split, so it will actually be worse if you are still accumulating money.  But if the money’s not there, it’s not there.  (You can’t get blood out of a stone).  Anyway, hope this helps and good luck with it all!


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## tech/a (23 May 2007)

> I think you will find that the money is divided up at the date of the property settlement,




*Spot on!!*

So do it quickly.

Mate of mine had 10 yrs seperated 2 other relationships then his ex wanted 50% of his wealth.Over those 10 yrs he had gone from Average wealth to substantial wealth. She got way way above anything she would have recieved 10 yrs earlier. The other 2 fortunatley just went their way.

She had made a sound investment!


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## Chorlton (23 May 2007)

BradK said:


> What a nightmare...
> 
> Yeah, go on a bender mate. Or sell your house to a mate for $1. Give her 50c.
> 
> ...





Interesting Point...  

If for example you were to convert your shares to cash and lose all of it to a err...  "friend" during a game of poker, I'd be interested in knowing where you stood from a legal standpoint.

A friend of mine in the UK, suggested taking this exact approach a few years ago when his relationship began to turn sour. However, in the end they worked it out so he never went through with it. At the time though he was extemely confident that this would be legal....


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## Fleeta (23 May 2007)

startrader said:


> but having been divorced twice and having two brothers both divorced twice




Ouch! Can't imagine doing this twice - what a pain that must have been. I think I am going to sell my shares and transfer the cash to family....good idea


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