# Anyone successfully trading ASX intraday ranges with CFDs?



## telstrareg

I’ve been having a go recently with $10/side order just to try and get a feel. It seems that by the time I’m confident there is a certain trend in play, I place an order and the trend runs out of steam. I’m lucky to cover my commission and often have to forfeit part of it. It’s rare to find XAO following a single trend for the whole day, so often your trying to deal with 2 or 3 turns. My comm is 10 basis points, so I need 0.2% to start making a profit. Since I’m probably going to be wrong about half the time, to make it worthwhile I need to be on trend that goes for at least 0.65%. 

Can anyone suggest any good stocks for this style of trading? Admittedly the ranges have been narrowing these last few days as the market has been making lower highs.


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## R0n1n

You are right. I just have to keep scavenging for stocks that are able to perform better. The list is narrowing down, specially those stocks that move up or down a fair bit during the day.


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## yogi-in-oz

telstrareg said:


> I’ve been having a go recently with $10/side order just to try and get a feel. It seems that by the time I’m confident there is a certain trend in play, I place an order and the trend runs out of steam. I’m lucky to cover my commission and often have to forfeit part of it. It’s rare to find XAO following a single trend for the whole day, so often your trying to deal with 2 or 3 turns. My comm is 10 basis points, so I need 0.2% to start making a profit. Since I’m probably going to be wrong about half the time, to make it worthwhile I need to be on trend that goes for at least 0.65%.
> 
> Can anyone suggest any good stocks for this style of trading? Admittedly the ranges have been narrowing these last few days as the market has been making lower highs.






Hi ya telstrareg,

Maybe, instead of getting stressed out about scalping a few points EVERY day,
a different approach to the market, may serve you better ... yes ???

You may be able to identify days, that are likely to have a sustained trend 
for most of the day. Often, those days will give you a better overall return, 
even though you are physically trading, on a lot less days = less stress, too !~!

happy days

 paul


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## professor_frink

telstrareg said:


> I’ve been having a go recently with $10/side order just to try and get a feel. It seems that by the time I’m confident there is a certain trend in play, I place an order and the trend runs out of steam. I’m lucky to cover my commission and often have to forfeit part of it. It’s rare to find XAO following a single trend for the whole day, so often your trying to deal with 2 or 3 turns. My comm is 10 basis points, so I need 0.2% to start making a profit. Since I’m probably going to be wrong about half the time, to make it worthwhile I need to be on trend that goes for at least 0.65%.
> 
> Can anyone suggest any good stocks for this style of trading? Admittedly the ranges have been narrowing these last few days as the market has been making lower highs.




some of the miners have some pretty decent looking ranges(note- this is looking at an EOD chart, not sure of how they look intraday)

PDN,JBM,AWC,ZFX(I'm sure there are more, but you'll have to look for yourself)

Considering what you are donating in comms, I would be looking at slightly longer hold times, it will make the brokerage less of an issue.


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## Uncle Festivus

telstrareg said:


> My comm is 10 basis points, so I need 0.2% to start making a profit.




Hi TR,
It sounds like you are starting from behind in the first place with that spread. I'd look at a CFD provider who can give you a spread of 3 points on the XJO or CFD equivalent.
Limit the initial trade to half or quarter of the total trade size until the direction is confirmed then pyramid in.
Set your stop at order placement time (I set mine at 5 points away)
Be happy with lot's of small gains, instead of hoping for a retirement size single winner.
I use 10 minute candle stick charts for entry exit (look for those consecutive long wicks & tails(?) which fail to continue the trend for turning points)
Keep it simple - don't stress

Good luck!


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## telstrareg

Uncle Festivus said:


> Hi TR,
> It sounds like you are starting from behind in the first place with that spread. I'd look at a CFD provider who can give you a spread of 3 points on the XJO or CFD equivalent.
> Limit the initial trade to half or quarter of the total trade size until the direction is confirmed then pyramid in.
> Set your stop at order placement time (I set mine at 5 points away)
> Be happy with lot's of small gains, instead of hoping for a retirement size single winner.
> I use 10 minute candle stick charts for entry exit (look for those consecutive long wicks & tails(?) which fail to continue the trend for turning points)
> Keep it simple - don't stress
> 
> Good luck!




Thankyou Mr. Costanza, all sound advice. 3 points sounds terrific, does IG offer that on a CFD? No doubt you wouldnt get 3 points from a DMA provider, so were talking MM I assume.


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## Uncle Festivus

telstrareg said:


> Thankyou Mr. Costanza, all sound advice. 3 points sounds terrific, does IG offer that on a CFD? No doubt you wouldnt get 3 points from a DMA provider, so were talking MM I assume.



Yes, MM XJO200 index spread with IG


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## skyQuake

"My comm is 10 basis points"

Thats a crazy spread. If you have a 7pt stop, you need to make a 27pt gain just to pay for 1 bad trade. Stop trading asap and move to IG, they have a 2pt spread , and even their Limited Risk accts have 5pt spreads.


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## Trembling Hand

"My comm is 10 basis points"

Yes it would be close to impossible to make money from this intraday. CMC have xjo instruments that you can trade with 2 point spreads (Aussie200). Even this is hard because you are always buying at the ask and selling at the bid so your winners are handicapped 2 points and your losers are 2 points greater. This has a big effect on your expectancy. I have a blog with a link that you can see how this works

http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad.com/

If you trade the SPI200 futures you can play the spread to your advantage. The good thing about CMC's Aussie200 is 1 contract is worth $1 per point. It is the perfect training to see how you go without blowing up a big account.

Good luck


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## Joules MM1

a first post, some thoughts

understand the use of intra market pressure and psychology set-ups by the smart money on the xjo

understand the intermediate (generic term, I know) effect of overnight and intra day effects from the NIK and the SSE

understand reporting period and the advantages of being short/long post-cash

I use a cfd platform with a 2 point spread in cash and 4 point spread in post-cash hours

the provider i use also has the added advantage of laggin in price movment when the US and DAX/FTSE decide to swing ...........so,  a pos in those indexes calls for consideration of (next days) action on the xjo or at least a momentive effect if only for a short period of time.........time is the key.........all prices revert to the true trend...........the US can be down and the smart money sees that those markets are simply using sucker techniques to draw price psychology and while the cfd might duck in those swing s it will rervert back to local trend when the oz markets rep-opens...........this is like know your product time

if anyone thinks that a 2 point spread is a handicap then they should re-consider trading, period. 

one of the beauties about the cfd for the xjo is that there is no cost other than the two major challenges; interest cost on short-sells and dividend pay-outs......in which case all short-sells should be closed at the close of the cash market especially during the dividend period..........alternatively, when the swing calls for a long pos into the following session, then, keep the long open into the cfd close (4.30pm-5.10pm), especially when you see the euro markets are ina bullish phase as the platform price will likely re-open  with a move into the euro direction (remember that the ftse opens at (currently) 5.00pm) .........this also calls for a following of the smart(er) money action and to summise what the cfd providers desk is doing........two rivals.........anyone who doesnt understand this should load down a camtasia and record the action over several weeks/months to get what they are doing and then you can capitalise on that action/technique........

the major disadvantage, for me, is that the platform does not provide a volume feed........I have to read intent from both the desk (platform provider) and a couple of generic feeds.........mostly understanding the trend and periods of congestion..........there are defiantely signs from the desk when a break-out is building although this is hard to describe on paper........and when the momentum is strong (especially in other indexes) the desk will take the opportunity to overshoot the cash price thus dissolving the usual support/resistance technical levels (like pivots) hower, this is an advantage when you stick with the larger degree trend and smart money intent.........

you must always be aware of two things; 1 that the cfd provider has access to stop-view, where, stops are mostly placed by weak money and 2 that the cfd provider also trades its own book..........in other words, the implications of this is a wide ranging discussion...........or, you can simply know this and use that knowledge to your advantge, which, maybe to enter or exit or simply stand aside.........

............as this is the first time at this site and the first time I have attempted to, basically, type my method, then..........

part 2 later

Julian


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## Joules MM1

in the next post, I want to discuss the times when cfd desks move away from the underlying cash price and the dissadvantages of viewing cfds in isolation, or, only viewing the cfd like a static instrument..........any pre-thoughts or questions  from others, I look forward to.........


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## Trembling Hand

I think there is a total lack of recognition by CFD traders who is on the other side of their trades. Its not the market but the CFD provider in the Market Maker (MM) case. Why are they on the other side? Because over time 90% of traders lose money. People have filled hundreds of books why, but one tactic that the MMers use is having you buy at the offer and sell at the bid if you are trading intraday looking at 10 to 20 point ranges this is going to greatly effect your long term expectancy. for example on a 10 point move you are handicapped 2 points, that’s 20% of the move buy my maths and if it goes against you 10 points + you have to sell at the bid thats an extra 2 points, again thats 20% greater move.
Day trading many times a day getting your winners cut 2 points and adding 2 points to your losers, this is a big cost you must recognize this as not brokerage free. That’s why The MM is so happy to be on the other side of you buying/selling the spread.
Don't get me wrong you can make money daytrading but it is hard.


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## Joules MM1

*xjo cfd 2*

2




........... download camtasia and study each day (you can set your camera to record each session) and get to know your opponent, especially when you "believe" that an operator has dominance over price direction, then, you get to understand levels and times of engagment.........this is an idea for those who do not have any kind of backtesting facility and also offers a different presentation for viewing, a different forum if you like...........

you see, first you need to develop a professional approach and professional doesnt mean wearing a tie, however, that does imply study..........

there are basically two studies; 1 of the opponent and 2 yourself .........strengths and weaknesses at which levels and which times.........amazes me how often these two studies arent taken-up..........



last post; *"cfd desks move away from the underlying cash price" * and I think this is a good point to watch for .........the cfd desk also has such other weights as oversees price settings, receipts etc and the desk operators will look to oversees futures settings (you'll need to find out where they get those numbers from) ...........when the price moves away from the underlying cash price and then tends to park at that distance upon each move, for example, when the xjo cfd is 12 points away from the cash in a quiet or congested period, you should ask; what influence is being asserted here........afterall, the difference is no real benefit to the desk.........but, the difference is a clear message to you.........when the cfd is X points away from the cash price and tracks with that difference, regardless of direction then you should observe the bias...........so a +12 points (X amount) in a downmove would imply that the move down is merely a test, a retracement, a finding of price support or demand in a larger degree uptrend.........the difference in this instance is clearly a bullish signal, or at least,  a bias not to be ignored............this is my opinion

next ;

*"disadvantages of viewing cfds in isolation, or, only viewing the cfd like a static instrument"*

whenever I read "I want to establish an overnight position on the xjo " I often wonder what exactly that means..........afterall, all positions are relative to several things; the size of move you are expecting, the size of pos of your (percentage of your) account, the size of overseas effect and affect on the fute, the time of day the pos is taken amongst many.........the xjo fute is not a static price like the cash so a set-and-forget approach is not ideal..........I also think this is part of the challenge for many traders who think of the instrument like they have trader other instruments.........the xjo fute is a beast of its own and you need to be inclusive of the external drivers and by that I mean the other larger players that come to the table at different times in a 24 hour period..........the effect of UK deposits, effect of capital movements from/to precious metals............is the price of gold and silver climbing/falling rapidly that might effect miners enough for the post-cash period? the effect of the reporting period? Holiday period (long weekend, xmas) .............

one thing I like to watch for is when the cfd suddenly climbs into the close.........I am asking; is the climb from the influence of dividend payments or from pressure to set price into the next session (knowing that the US and/or uk/dax is bullish) or are larger players simply tapping the stops to off-load before a larger next-day decline ..........you see, study............you must study other players habits.........their tactical frame-work.........this takes time...........this is a professional business...........

apply an aggressive "need-to-know" attitude...........within that you are applying an aggressive defense...........

a lot of times, the whole ball-game is  understanding the business of the other players.........other markets...........other influences...........what the desk may do..........when those might happen...........post-cash influences.........cash-hours influences..........large take-overs..........fx movements, precious metals etc...........

this might sound a little strange .......but..........use your imagination..........this is not trading a stock..........even then, the questions about who is in play is just as relevant, although, rarely asked...........the xjo cfd fute is a dynamic beast and you are well rewarded for the long study you put into its different forces...........​


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## Joules MM1

*if anyone thinks that a 2 point spread...........*



> if anyone thinks that a 2 point spread is a handicap then they should re-consider trading, period.




please allow me to exapnd on that........I was not being dissingenuous

that was a serious post...........in fact, if I was mentoring someone and they said that a 2p spread was no good then I'd tell them to close the screen and come back in a year of study.........seriously..........

1 a 2p spread is nothing in context of price study also most traders never consider fee costs for sites like comsec yet are willing to pay fees and wait extended periods of time to get a percentage gain (on a daily basis) so, you see, the cost is a relative to the exercise...........It's like Mark Webber saying he won't race because he couldnt ever start at first position on the starting grid..........I think the focus is in the wrong place..........

2 a lot of cfd traders confuse the context of time versus price..........there is a big difference between a vertical spread play and a pattern play .........the difference between a drag-and-drop 3 second trade on say the RUT or NDX versus the pattern of 1 min cfd platform........the context of (skimming or clipping)  scalping is not the same and the costs are not the same.........your spread is your cost..........

3 most cfd platforms do not provide a volume feed or pending feed (if they did then the price purges would widen and be even harder to play unless you have big capital or a network of players to "gang")

4 actually, in many respects, most trader are blind with a cfd platform.........first, the charts are not the cash so they are only representative..........thus, all indicia is like fruit of a poisened tree.........most indicia are pretty futile anyway.........

5 most nearterm cfd trader misunderstand the power of leverage

6 most nearterm cfd traders misunderstand that they need to follow the cash closer than the cfd

7 most nearterm cfd traders misunderstand support and resistances need to come from the cash analysis and how they can use that knowledge to tap into when stops are being hunted in the cfd..........in this instance more stops are triggered in the cfd becasue the traders ARE observing the cash levels but underestimating the use of either the desk provider or other large rplayer who can push the xjo fute (the same way the ftse fute or the spx fute is pushed upon news releases)

8 that the xjo cfd fute is not ACTUALLY a futures contract it is a derivative thus prone to its own extents adn its own (post-cash) supports.........Ive traded the xjo cfd off fibs in the past that you couldnt see in the cash.........the emotional retail extreme works in both the cash and the cfd but at different levels...........

9 like most other instruments, cfd traders do not understand "intent" and neither did I for a very long time.........cfd are a derivative which are used diferently (if only slightly) within large cap intent..........

I am sure I'll think of more later on this


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## Joules MM1

*if anyone thinks that a 2 point spread...........*

part 2 

..........these posts are motivated  from a pm I rec'd today
...........another time when the spread is also irrelevant is when the index is in a strong trend (youve proven this with your t/a) and the us or the euro markets take a fast (testing) decline or incline.......the direction is largely irrelevant........what's relevent is the players intent in getting price to swing so they can mine..........remember that price movement is purely about liquidity, nothing else............we are talking about mining price weakness in stop placements and basic trader psychology...........this stuff is a lot easier to show in-trade than in type, so, please, ask me more questions...........

some of my best trades are made when I'm in US or euro hours because my sentient logic tells me that the cfd is moving with those external influences ..........so my question then becomes (after considering the position of the local market pressures to be long, short or closed); is this the position that the local larger trader were waiting to be short, long or closed in the cfd and did the action into the cash sloce of the xjo show me those positions and thus is this merely a (mechanism) opportunity to ADD or close to a position.........you see, the question isnt strictly about the trend because a trend is made by people, so, the question is about what those poeple are likely to do given the parameters or time and price within our market and the oversees markets...........

I would go so far as to say that 50% of my short term trades are made during trades on other markets because I have unwritten influences to read that you can't get from an indicator...........I have to ask about THEM, what do they gain..........someone ALWAYS gains from price movement, so, I am asking WHO is then going to gain and should I be following in their foot-steps............


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## Trembling Hand

Joules MM1...........Wow my head is spinning. 

I think I can assume that a 2 point spread buying/selling '@ market' in you mind/trading is not an impediment to long term intraday profitability. Are you taking reasonable size moves consistently as ever calculation I do with my trading results the diff size spread really messes up my profitability


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## Joules MM1

trembling Hand said:


> Joules MM1...........Wow my head is spinning.
> 
> I think I can assume that a 2 point spread buying/selling '@ market' in you mind/trading is not an impediment to long term intraday profitability. Are you taking reasonable size moves consistently as ever calculation I do with my trading results the diff size spread really messes up my profitability




ok, maybe, If I was to make chronological and logical annotation of my points and question that might open a few doors for you a lot faster........expediency is a major key, I appreciate that........but again, the question is WHOs expediency andhow quickly are they attempting to mine the price (weakness or strength)

look, maybe a simple step-back, a place or two, in the understanding of trend, support, resistances, volume and time function would make all the difference to you.........this stuff takes time to understand and place into context in real time........don't rush, give yourself time and permission.........everyone starts at zero, ok?

the name of the game in my opinion, if someone was to ask me to describe trading, then, I say, trading is "the mining of weakness of one oponent by another" 

in the jungle size is everything, that's true to an extent.........but so is the time that that size is put into place, into activity..........so you can play in a big pond with bigger fish if you know when they'll be there and who they want to feed on..........this is a thinking game


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## Trembling Hand

You are a funny person.
Expediency!! 
Don't you mean expectancy?? Or do you not know what I am talking about? 
Please do not assume that the people on this forum are idiots or all novices. You may end up on the wrong side of your own zero-sum game!!


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## Joules MM1

trembling Hand said:


> You are a funny person.
> Expediency!!
> Don't you mean expectancy?? Or do you not know what I am talking about?
> Please do not assume that the people on this forum are idiots or all novices. You may end up on the wrong side of your own zero-sum game!!




the post wasnt designed to push any buttons.........it is designed to get you to think before the trade, not in the trade..........the post is designed to probe your areas of weakenss before you re-enter the next trade..........this is clearly the case and its a good thing..........the post is an offering of a different perspective, that is all..........a gift of my time..........I think you are a smart enough person to ask these questions, therefor, eventually,  a smart enough disposition to make good on your intelligence, which you have plenty of..........your intelligence is not at issue here...........neither is mine and neither is your attitude or mine..........what we are attempting to do here, is to flush out the real basis of market price movement.........this may push into areas about yourself that you do not like..........that's just a part of the ball game...........that's all..........

be well


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## Trembling Hand

Joules MM1 said:


> what we are attempting to do here, is to flush out the real basis of market price movement.........this may push into areas about yourself that you do not like..........that's just a part of the ball game...........that's all..........




No I don't think that is what I just asked you 
"I think I can assume that a 2 point spread buying/selling '@ market' in you mind/trading is not an impediment to long term intraday profitability. Are you taking reasonable size moves consistently?"

As I said with my results it really makes a bit diff to me making money or not. And I was wondering if it dose not effect you?


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## Joules MM1

trembling Hand said:


> No I don't think that is what I just asked you
> "I think I can assume that a 2 point spread buying/selling '@ market' in you mind/trading is not an impediment to long term intraday profitability. Are you taking reasonable size moves consistently?"
> 
> As I said with my results it really makes a bit diff to me making money or not. And I was wondering if it dose not effect you?




not really, not an impediment......planning is vital......knowing/planning when to engage and with what discipline (as much as a I hate that inferrence, because discipline denotes trading out of a set box and the market is dynamic so cannot be contained) 

here is an excerpt from another site, where I said prior to the us open and prior to the oz cash close:



> Joules MM1
> 6/8/2007 2:20:55 PM looks like the xjo is going to get to the 6140 area that I thought it would reach last week........the next major support for the spx is 1480 and the futes are already at 1490 so I'd say we'd be seeing an attempt to make a genuine buy-up tonite into monday............I did note a few capitulative volume spikes for the first time this moring in the US session.........this is a good sign that large money is taking on volume while weakhands throw-in the towel.........still to enough to be convincing.........a few jitttery voices appearing around so first real signs of fear-sells should eventuate.........I'll be watching the oz post cash futes to see if they get aggressive........doubt it..........alls well, who plan well eh.........




that is the exact post.......the spx cfd (pre us cash open) went down to 1481 support area (that's the cash support) and the xjo cfd hit right on the cash support area although you won't see that in the cash movement when the oz market open tomorrow.........

again, todays a closed day so it was a good opportunity to come in here and chat with you.........be well and thanks for the convo

Joules


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## >Apocalypto<

telstrareg said:


> I’ve been having a go recently with $10/side order just to try and get a feel. It seems that by the time I’m confident there is a certain trend in play, I place an order and the trend runs out of steam. I’m lucky to cover my commission and often have to forfeit part of it. It’s rare to find XAO following a single trend for the whole day, so often your trying to deal with 2 or 3 turns. My comm is 10 basis points, so I need 0.2% to start making a profit. Since I’m probably going to be wrong about half the time, to make it worthwhile I need to be on trend that goes for at least 0.65%.
> 
> Can anyone suggest any good stocks for this style of trading? Admittedly the ranges have been narrowing these last few days as the market has been making lower highs.




Hi,

I am trading the IGXJO, 

i chose Ig due to no brokerage and 5$ or 25 per point so small wins add up. I never day trade anything with wide spreads as it makes a hard job 21 times harder.

when i open a position i add 2 points to my entry straight away due to the spread.

so I look to make 3 points per trade. or a total of 5 from open.



chart shows my trades for today.


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## Trembling Hand

Trade_It said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am trading the IGXJO,
> 
> i chose Ig due to no brokerage and 5$ or 25 per point so small wins add up. I never day trade anything with wide spreads as it makes a hard job 21 times harder.
> 
> when i open a position i add 2 points to my entry straight away due to the spread.
> 
> so I look to make 3 points per trade. or a total of 5 from open.
> 
> 
> 
> chart shows my trades for today.




And where do you have your stop if your aim is 3 points? it would only have to tickaway from you one point to have a larger stop than you profit target??


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## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> And where do you have your stop if your aim is 3 points? it would only have to tickaway from you one point to have a larger stop than you profit target??




i have may stop at 1 point higher then the last high before the entry, due to i was going short here, i will also place my stop 5 points above my trade due to buy retracements go higher then sells, you don't want to get stopped out to early.

6297 was stop on first trade 6290 on continuation

you do risk losing more then u make, so setup in critical it has to form in a way to make a trade there a meny more rules then i have said......

again the setup is critical to take the trade.


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## Trembling Hand

Trade_It said:


> i have may stop at 1 point higher then the last high before the entry, due to i was going short here, i will also place my stop 5 points above my trade due to buy retracements go higher then sells, you don't want to get stopped out to early.
> 
> 6297 was stop on first trade 6290 on continuation
> 
> you do risk losing more then u make, so setup in critical it has to form in a way to make a trade there a meny more rules then i have said......
> 
> again the setup is critical to take the trade.




So you must be picking many more winners that losers?
Did you say you look to take 3 points per trade and have a possible 7 point loss


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## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> So you must be picking many more winners that losers?
> Did you say you look to take 3 points per trade and have a possible 7 point loss




ok..........day trading is very fast and not all tardes are just left to stop alot of the time i wont have a stop order i will know where it is not looking good and were it is. if i think its not looking good i will bail.

i know where my maximum loss area is. if it gets there i close. once i open the position i automatically prepare it to be closed on the click of a button.


three point is what i do my best to get out with, if it is a good continuation i will leave it in for more.

things change very fast on a 2min like i said in my last post, set up is what makes or breaks it how it forms and how choppy it is into the lead of the set up, the range of the retracments getting bigger smaller number of them, is it a peak of a lower high in the day or just in the micro trend..............

all have to be considered before the open plus more!

and yes if i qualifiy the above and more and it checks out in my head i do take more winners......... but some break even it is hard line to pick at times, reversal or a healthy continuation rally in the case of my shorts on the chart. losses add up much quicker then wins. thats whey set up need so much attention. you want to see a smooth run in the prices not a wild choppy mess.

are you day trading or just looking for a perfect system?


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## Trembling Hand

Trade_It

I was just wondering if you are scalping for 3 point winners, which is what i mostly do all day long on the spi200, and you are buying/selling at market and your stop is greater than your profit you would have to trade heaps and nail near on most (80%)? I assume you trade only 1 or 2 contacts ($5 or $10 per point?) @ a time if not it is cheaper to trade the SPI200 and pay brokerage.


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## professor_frink

trembling Hand said:


> Trade_It
> 
> I was just wondering if you are scalping for 3 point winners, which is what i mostly do all day long on the spi200, and you are buying/selling at market and your stop is greater than your profit you would have to trade heaps and nail near on most (80%)? I assume you trade only 1 or 2 contacts ($5 or $10 per point?) @ a time if not it is cheaper to trade the SPI200 and pay brokerage.




Had a quick look at your blog today Trembling Hand(nice work by the way), and most of your charts appear to be 5 minute. Do you scalp off that kind of timeframe?


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## Trembling Hand

professor_frink said:


> Had a quick look at your blog today Trembling Hand(nice work by the way), and most of your charts appear to be 5 minute. Do you scalp off that kind of timeframe?




Well not really I have 4 charts up of the spi200 15min, 5min, 2min & 1 min.
Also flip the 15 min between 60 min and day every now and again just to see how that’s looking. You know MA's, support/resistance. Was going to do a post about that some time really most of my trades come from the 1 min and 2 min charts but its nice to see what the spi looks like on different time frames so you don't end up trading against a big set up on something not obvious on the smaller interval charts.

As for the blog post most the 5 min charts show the prevailing day trend so it’s an easy way of showing something.

Thanks for having a look @ the blog it is a bit rough at the moment but I will tighten it up over time.


----------



## Captain_Chaza

trembling Hand said:


> Well not really I have 4 charts up of the spi200 15min, 5min, 2min & 1 min.
> Also flip the 15 min between 60 min and day every now and again just to see how that’s looking. You know MA's, support/resistance. Was going to do a post about that some time really most of my trades come from the 1 min and 2 min charts but its nice to see what the spi looks like on different time frames so you don't end up trading against a big set up on something not obvious on the smaller interval charts.
> 
> As for the blog post most the 5 min charts show the prevailing day trend so it’s an easy way of showing something.
> 
> Thanks for having a look @ the blog it is a bit rough at the moment but I will tighten it up over time.




It's good to see that you are only looking at the 200
It would have to be with a suicidle type of consequence whether I were to margin buy on any one of these Heavyand ever so clumsy sail

Each to their own I guess
I often told my dear old mother 
"She'l be right in the long term"
And amazingly "It always was !"

What I lost in the short term was never discussed!
Nobody loses in the Long term I told her!

She was a lot older than I so I figured I could take a much longer point of view!  LOL!
Salute and Gods'  speed


----------



## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> Trade_It
> 
> I was just wondering if you are scalping for 3 point winners, which is what i mostly do all day long on the spi200, and you are buying/selling at market and your stop is greater than your profit you would have to trade heaps and nail near on most (80%)? I assume you trade only 1 or 2 contacts ($5 or $10 per point?) @ a time if not it is cheaper to trade the SPI200 and pay brokerage.





TH,

sorry to make that comment at the end of my last post.

Read your blog good stuff there. Bolinger bands is something that has always interested me but i have never really looked further.I see your on the spi battle field.

I have not been using my current day trading system long, I am making trades but there are areas eg profit stops that need further assessment.

ok 3 point trades. once a trade gets into 5 point profit. i wach the way it is acting very carefully, in the band or retrace that is happening.

i may take profits and then renter on a new confirmed continuation trade. Or i will hand on.

many factors determine that. 

primarily i am a positions trader, but i am now looking at intraday much more,  hence why i am playing around on the IGXJO for now my next move is the spi and other indexes Emini for 1.

The spread is a pain in the ass, but for now while i fine tune my eye for what i am looking for it's fine but regards to the losses the spread can damage a lot of good work.

hence why i really have to observe solid set ups.

cheers Joseph


chart of todays trades the long was a break even due to the spread.   and there not all as good as today! was a great day


----------



## Trembling Hand

Yeah the combination of the spread and at market orders does knock you around a bit. Certainly it’s not a 'brokerage free trade’ but for dipping your toe in to the index market it’s not a bad place to start. $25 per point on the spi is a bit heavy to learn I think. 
Will have a post on my blog comparing the spi trade to CFDs cost soon, keep an eye out for it.


----------



## professor_frink

trembling Hand said:


> Well not really I have 4 charts up of the spi200 15min, 5min, 2min & 1 min.
> Also flip the 15 min between 60 min and day every now and again just to see how that’s looking. You know MA's, support/resistance. Was going to do a post about that some time really most of my trades come from the 1 min and 2 min charts but its nice to see what the spi looks like on different time frames so you don't end up trading against a big set up on something not obvious on the smaller interval charts.
> 
> As for the blog post most the 5 min charts show the prevailing day trend so it’s an easy way of showing something.
> 
> Thanks for having a look @ the blog it is a bit rough at the moment but I will tighten it up over time.




Good stuff Trembling hand. Agree about having up multiple charts for that kind of trading, it's almost essential, though I can get away with 2 timeframes for the HSI presently(at least until I get more screen space!)


----------



## Trembling Hand

professor_frink
Yes screen space. Oh to have a couple wiz bang 30" Dells.

To get back on topic” Anyone successfully trading ASX intraday ranges with CFDs?” 
Have a look at this to see your real cost with CFDs


----------



## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> professor_frink
> Yes screen space. Oh to have a couple wiz bang 30" Dells.
> 
> To get back on topic” Anyone successfully trading ASX intraday ranges with CFDs?”
> Have a look at this to see your real cost with CFDs




TH,

Great post on your blog.

from seeing that all laid out awnsers a lot of questions i had about trading the IG indexes.

I was looking on ASX website at there mini futures contract and i think its the  best way to go.

Contract 	Initial Margin 	Intermonth Spread Charge
Mini 200 	$1,845 	                       $100

is the mini the mini SPI?

i always have not liked there spreads in day trading and even in position trading there after hours prices can do weird things. but i still have a lot fun trading there xjo 

one thing i will say indefence of IG is that they offer more competitive spreads on some of there FX pairs.

now finding a broker!


----------



## Trembling Hand

Unfortunately I think the mini spi on the ASX has not a lot going on it at all. So you will be stuck with the same problem, big spreads. The tight spreads are on the real thing on the SFX but you need a bit of $$ to be trading $25 per point.

I'm not totally against the CFD indexes they are a good tool to learn on but I’m just trying to give the heads up on what’s not always clear at first look.

i.e. It's HARD TO WIN AT THIS GAME.


----------



## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> i.e. It's HARD TO WIN AT THIS GAME.




depends how u play...........


----------



## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> Unfortunately I think the mini spi on the ASX has not a lot going on it at all. So you will be stuck with the same problem, big spreads. The tight spreads are on the real thing on the SFX but you need a bit of $$ to be trading $25 per point.
> 
> I'm not totally against the CFD indexes they are a good tool to learn on but I’m just trying to give the heads up on what’s not always clear at first look.
> 
> i.e. It's HARD TO WIN AT THIS GAME.




Intra day is a interest of mine which i am not rushing into it. position trading is still my main style. finding and locking into short trem trends looking to make 400+ return of each new break after sell off and support. that's in the current market.

i see you point and thanks for bloging it TH.

P.S you may have some angy CFD companys looking for u soon to shove some hush money down your gobb LOL


----------



## Edwood

trembling Hand said:


> Unfortunately I think the mini spi on the ASX has not a lot going on it at all. So you will be stuck with the same problem, big spreads. The tight spreads are on the real thing on the SFX but you need a bit of $$ to be trading $25 per point.
> 
> I'm not totally against the CFD indexes they are a good tool to learn on but I’m just trying to give the heads up on what’s not always clear at first look.
> 
> i.e. It's HARD TO WIN AT THIS GAME.




to add my 2pence - in my experience with spreadbets, which are similar to CFD's, you need to be prepared to hold out of hours.  intra-day only on ASX with CFD's is tough going in my opinion.  Trade Its strategy posted earlier is good for a trending market, otherwise bollinger bands are useful for range trading, along with the usual channels & stuff, but I have found swing trading to be easier.  if its intra-day only you really have to maximise the gap opens


----------



## macca

Hi TH,

After reading your blog I have a question.

Wouldn't there have to be a gap of one point between the buy/sell of a future ? 

Don't see how they could be the same price, which means the difference between futures and CFD still exists but would be less than your example.

I don't trade these things but I am interested in trading the SPI200, that is why I am reading 

If I am wrong could you please explain why /how

thanks


----------



## >Apocalypto<

macca said:


> Hi TH,
> 
> After reading your blog I have a question.
> 
> Wouldn't there have to be a gap of one point between the buy/sell of a future ?
> 
> Don't see how they could be the same price, which means the difference between futures and CFD still exists but would be less than your example.
> 
> I don't trade these things but I am interested in trading the SPI200, that is why I am reading
> 
> If I am wrong could you please explain why /how
> 
> thanks




Hey Macca,

there is a 1 point spread on the spi to my knowledge


----------



## Trembling Hand

macca said:


> Hi TH,
> 
> After reading your blog I have a question.
> 
> Wouldn't there have to be a gap of one point between the buy/sell of a future ?
> 
> Don't see how they could be the same price, which means the difference between futures and CFD still exists but would be less than your example.
> 
> I don't trade these things but I am interested in trading the SPI200, that is why I am reading
> 
> If I am wrong could you please explain why /how
> 
> thanks



Hi Macca
Yes you are right there is a 1 point spread on the SPI and its can even jump out to 3 or 4 points when it gets real wild. But 98% of the time its 1 point. The thing that makes the difference is that because you can join the BID or ASK and its so active (about 25,000 contracts per day) you can mostly get your order filled playing the spread rather that with CFDs having to always buy/sell the other side of the spread. I will post some more about this. Maybe even set up a cam or video camera to show the market depth screen in real time and put that on my blog. Of course if your time frame is larger than intraday you don't have to give a toss about the spread. But on a smaller time frame that is where the skill comes into it. Maybe even more than any Chart reading TA stuff.

Stay tuned


----------



## Edwood

intra-day range?? wots that?  last 2 hours have been trading within a 6pt range


----------



## professor_frink

Edwood said:


> intra-day range?? wots that?  last 2 hours have been trading within a 6pt range




Been fun hasn't it

With the HK markets shut and the golf course waterlogged, I thought I'd see if I could play on the spi

Had a stop limit order waiting to go off since about 11:30...... and it's just been hit. Woohoo


----------



## Trembling Hand

Hard day to get an easy read, lots of volume because of the roll over of new contact. Lots of funny buggers with big orders going off everywhere.


----------



## Trembling Hand

professor_frink said:


> Been fun hasn't it
> 
> With the HK markets shut and the golf course waterlogged, I thought I'd see if I could play on the spi
> 
> Had a stop limit order waiting to go off since about 11:30...... and it's just been hit. Woohoo




You enjoying this run?


----------



## >Apocalypto<

I opened a long over the IGXJO last Thursday so they have all been good runs thus far.

market really came back today looking like a confident finish.


----------



## professor_frink

trembling Hand said:


> You enjoying this run?




Yep 
Had a target for 64, so only have 1 on now- next target of 81. Think that might be a bit ambitious, but I'll see if I can hold out for it.

Noticed on your blog, you had your eye out for the break- did you get set?


----------



## Joules MM1

Trade_It said:


> I opened a long over the IGXJO last Thursday so they have all been good runs thus far.
> 
> market really came back today looking like a confident finish.





nice stuff, TI

follow the power, squeaz the shorts.........


----------



## Trembling Hand

Yeah i was on it but flipped it out a long time ago.
Like 15 points off the days highs................ so far

:bonk:


----------



## professor_frink

trembling Hand said:


> Yeah i was on it but flipped it out a long time ago.
> Like 15 points off the days highs................ so far
> 
> :bonk:




A profitable trade is a profitable trade

81 has been hit I'm out.


----------



## Joules MM1

the index is providing swings both sides in a clear manner todate, with no overalpping x-wave type stuff.........this particular fute mimic (cfd) is a good alternative benchmark to use in conjunction with the levels in the cash in terms of extreme ratios and supports in post-cash plays.........if targets aent quite met in the cash the cfd may provide the signal that an exhaustion and reversal at that degree of trend is already met in terms of liquidity flows (both ways)........

J


----------



## Trembling Hand

Joules MM1 said:


> this particular fute mimic (cfd) is a good alternative benchmark to use in conjunction with the levels in the cash in terms of extreme ratios and supports in post-cash plays.........if targets aent quite met in the cash the cfd may provide the signal that an exhaustion and reversal at that degree of trend is already met in terms of liquidity flows (both ways)........
> 
> J




Are you saying a CMC CFD contract that is based on the SPI TICK for TICK but reset set at an arbitrary level by CMC should be an indication of trade set ups???? come on this "contract" is Rubbish. Use the XJO or SPI not something set by a Market Maker. It Has been 30 points or more below the SPI and XJO as recent as two weeks ago and has been like that for a long time now. Then this week it has been "repriced" since the falls. Even if you have to use a CFD contract to trade watch what the smart money use not this.


----------



## SevenFX

Trade_It said:


> I opened a long over the IGXJO last Thursday so they have all been good runs thus far..




How much of a stop do you guys use, as I'm with IGmarkets (web) trading the SPI (Forward200-SEP07) and feel whether I'm generous or not, I get stopped out nearly everytime, no matter how good my channels n s/r lines are...????

I'm using 8-12 pts spread, and guessing if I'm wrong with picking my entry, I rather know sooner, than later. And hate to think about more contracts atm.

Running out of fingers, as most of them are burn't since intraday trading with IGmarkets.




trembling Hand said:


> But on a smaller time frame that is where the skill comes into it. Maybe even more than any Chart reading TA stuff.




Hmmm, start to wonder that, as whereever my stops are, it comes down, closes me out, and the of course moves to higher highs.

Starting to feel like IGmarkets have got me on some sorta simulator, and shifting all my wealth from my account to theirs.... 

Thanks
SevenFX


----------



## Gundini

telstrareg said:


> Can anyone suggest any good stocks for this style of trading? Admittedly the ranges have been narrowing these last few days as the market has been making lower highs.




Yes, there are quite a few good intraday movers, but you have to have your fingers on the pulse...

LEI can move $1 to $2 during the day.

MBL has $1 to $4 range.

PDN can have runs of around 30 cent movement.

RIO is darn right scary, and sometimes lack depth, but big mover.

BHP is also fairly solid, but you have to generally catch movement at the open, around 50 cents.

There are many others but these are my favourites at the moment.

It is not an easy thing to do and you need to be slick on the button. Can be exciting when they go your way, and devestating if they don't. And then there are market notices.  I have been caught out a couple of times with these. When ZFX came out last year with an earlier than planed mine wall suring up, I ducked into the loo. On my return, the share had lost about $1.70. I went into a panic and sold, and then the share went back up, but it was the most expensive dump I ever had at $10 a cent...


----------



## Captain_Chaza

I believe the correct answer is

"NOBODY!" ????

By definition  Intra-day Trading is the meat/body in the daily candlestick

With regard to the  "Heavywieghts"  and CFD's the major moves are made overnight in the form of Gaps

Big Fat candles are very rare!

With regard to the Lightwieghts you also take your chances?

Salute and Gods' speed


----------



## CanOz

SevenFX said:


> How much of a stop do you guys use, as I'm with IGmarkets (web) trading the SPI (Forward200-SEP07) and feel whether I'm generous or not, I get stopped out nearly everytime, no matter how good my channels n s/r lines are...????
> 
> I'm using 8-12 pts spread, and guessing if I'm wrong with picking my entry, I rather know sooner, than later. And hate to think about more contracts atm.
> 
> Running out of fingers, as most of them are burn't since intraday trading with IGmarkets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, start to wonder that, as whereever my stops are, it comes down, closes me out, and the of course moves to higher highs.
> 
> Starting to feel like IGmarkets have got me on some sorta simulator, and shifting all my wealth from my account to theirs....
> 
> Thanks
> SevenFX




Funny this SevenFX, i felt exactly the same when i first got my IG account. So for the last 3 months i've just watched the indexs and concentrated on low risk types of entries with highish probabilities. Here are some more things of interest that i've noticed:

1.) never leave a stop unattended (i.e. overnight), and even better to leave it wide a last resort and mentally set your stop level and stick to it. 

2.)Get in and then get out as soon as the trade goes against you. Have a target level and get out at that level or move the mental stop up (or down, obviously).

3.) always watch the other indexs that are active at the time, RE: Profs advice on the Nikkei and the HS.

4.) trade minis, 1 contract at a time and set small goals first. Better to hit lots of singles than to swing for the fences. Build up your confidence.

This is still a work in progress for me, and quite frankly if you don't have the time to follow the markets closely every day it doesn't pay. I don't trade large numbers of CFD contracts, only 1 or two minis. This is just an interest at this stage and i've set aside some funds to use as a learning expense.

Trade It was trading CFD indexs for a while.

Cheers,


----------



## CFD

SevenFX said:


> ~~
> Hmmm, start to wonder that, as whereever my stops are, it comes down, closes me out, and the of course moves to higher highs.
> 
> Starting to feel like IGmarkets have got me on some sorta simulator, and shifting all my wealth from my account to theirs....
> 
> Thanks
> SevenFX




I know the feeling, work out what to do over night and most of the action is over before I can get on! When I say ok I've missed the move let it go, it continues. When I jump on, it stops or moves very little. This leaves me with a small loss that could have been a small profit, or nothing because I let it go or a loss because I jumped on too late.


----------



## Trembling Hand

CFD said:


> I know the feeling, work out what to do over night and most of the action is over before I can get on! When I say ok I've missed the move let it go, it continues. When I jump on, it stops or moves very little. This leaves me with a small loss that could have been a small profit, or nothing because I let it go or a loss because I jumped on too late.




If you are trying to trade intraday. Forget about the opening gap. It has no relation to the trend for the rest of the day. If you trade intraday look for *setups that reoccur no matter what the opening gap is*. This is a trading edge nothing else matters. If you are getting frustrated its because you are trading with out an edge. With Intraday trading the trend is not your friend.

I have made 19 trades so far this morning. Only 5 have been short. Also this is hard to do this stuff with CFds because of the spread.


----------



## CFD

Intraday, it's just these big overnight moves are not the opportunity I thought they should be. On a swing trade type basis they seem to come counter trend. (Someone should blow pre and post market auctions up!)

I thought a 1c spread was ok, but with any volatility it blows out to 2 sometimes 3c which is a bit rich, although it seems to settle back to 1c ok.

I guess you may be doing well with some long positions later this morning, I have no knowledge of picking bounces during the day. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## >Apocalypto<

CFD said:


> Intraday, it's just these big overnight moves are not the opportunity I thought they should be. On a swing trade type basis they seem to come counter trend. (Someone should blow pre and post market auctions up!)
> 
> I thought a 1c spread was ok, but with any volatility it blows out to 2 sometimes 3c which is a bit rich, although it seems to settle back to 1c ok.
> 
> I guess you may be doing well with some long positions later this morning, I have no knowledge of picking bounces during the day. Thanks for the reply.




CFD,

Intraday is a very tough gig to master mate.

You need a different system and a very fast mind to act on a sec no time to ponder you either go in or wait for the next opportunity.

Like TH said trends are not always to be trusted as they turn base continue base fall then spike all in a couple of hours if u walk away from a trade thinking its only going to go up or down u may be in for a rude shock.

Spreads.

I can not day trade with a spread more then two points. due to this I am very picky about the trades I take, sometimes I pass many good trades up. I look for a consistent pattern that is not wild and volatile with wide ranging bars. chopping and changing. I will let go of 5 points plus the spread per trade.

I look to lock in 5 points to more on a trade aim for more tried to just take 3 out but couple losses in a row there goes your win/loss ratio.

currently I hardly day trade as I work full time and I can't be bothered sitting glued to the screen for the whole day.

I prefer to position trade, short term trends on stock indexes FX commodities and some asx shares.  

I read this in a John J Murphy Book:

"Master day to day trading before you look to master intraday trading."

All the best


----------



## SevenFX

trembling Hand said:


> With Intraday trading the trend is not your friend..




Not sure if I follow what you mean TH, as isn't Micro trending (tic, min, hr) always occuring with each greater Macro trending (day, week, month, etc)

Also can you explain what you describe as a "setup" or "edge".  Is this like channel trading and shorting at the top of a channel given it is a reliable proven channel with a decent range to profit after spread....????

Thanks
SevenFX


----------



## Trembling Hand

Trade_It said:


> CFD,
> I read this in a John J Murphy Book:
> 
> "Master day to day trading before you look to master intraday trading."
> 
> All the best




I know what you mean as the skill to trade longer time frames is a good starting point. But I don't necessarily agree with this one. The personal make up that makes a good position trader may not transfer to what makes a good day trader and reverse. I know people that have struggle for years trying one thing. Only to switch market/time frames/instruments (like stocks to options) and it has just clicked. I say try everything. See what clicks with you and forget the rest.



SevenFX said:


> Not sure if I follow what you mean TH, as isn't Micro trending (tic, min, hr) always occuring with each greater Macro trending (day, week, month, etc)
> 
> Also can you explain what you describe as a "setup" or "edge".  Is this like channel trading and shorting at the top of a channel given it is a reliable proven channel with a decent range to profit after spread....????
> 
> Thanks
> SevenFX




Very rarely do we get large range days in the direction of the daily trend. like what I posted about Here. 

As far as a trading edge. Its a bit hard to explain what someone should do as everyone sees the market differently. But i will give it a go. IMO to day trade you do not need many setups. When I started trading the SPI, every day I printed out and keep the 5 min & 2 min charts for 2 years. After a while of going over the charts many times I found setups that would repeat time and time again. To turn this into a trading edge I then had to work on entry/exit and that was it. Now I can approach the market each day knowing if one of "my" patterns show up I have a high probability of making a profit. The only frustration that I get from the market is mostly on bad entries and to early exits (which is not from the market but my skill) This takes a lot of the frustration out of trading. Sure its still frustrating but that should not come from the market If you have the three things below,

Pattern + Entry/Exit skill + Balls to take The setup = trading edge. Forget the rest!


----------



## CanOz

trembling Hand said:


> I know what you mean as the skill to trade longer time frames is a good starting point. But I don't necessarily agree with this one. The personal make up that makes a good position trader may not transfer to what makes a good day trader and reverse. I know people that have struggle for years trying one thing. Only to switch market/time frames/instruments (like stocks to options) and it has just clicked. I say try everything. See what clicks with you and forget the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> Very rarely do we get large range days in the direction of the daily trend. like what I posted about Here.
> 
> As far as a trading edge. Its a bit hard to explain what someone should do as everyone sees the market differently. But i will give it a go. IMO to day trade you do not need many setups. When I started trading the SPI, every day I printed out and keep the 5 min & 2 min charts for 2 years. After a while of going over the charts many times I found setups that would repeat time and time again. To turn this into a trading edge I then had to work on entry/exit and that was it. Now I can approach the market each day knowing if one of "my" patterns show up I have a high probability of making a profit. The only frustration that I get from the market is mostly on bad entries and to early exits (which is not from the market but my skill) This takes a lot of the frustration out of trading. Sure its still frustrating but that should not come from the market If you have the three things below,
> 
> Pattern + Entry/Exit skill + Balls to take The setup = trading edge. Forget the rest!




Excellent advice here, also read about a trader that did something similar with the historical charts in New Market Wizards.

Incidentally, the two most common themes in the book were EDGE, and ability to take losses...or so i remember anyway.

A bit off topic.

Cheers,


----------



## >Apocalypto<

CanOz said:


> Excellent advice here, also read about a trader that did something similar with the historical charts in New Market Wizards.
> 
> Incidentally, the two most common themes in the book were EDGE, and ability to take losses...or so i remember anyway.
> 
> A bit off topic.
> 
> Cheers,




very on topic Can.


----------



## CanOz

Trade_It said:


> very on topic Can.




I should add TI that i'm pretty confident of being very good at the latter theme!

Now, just to hone the EDGE!

Cheers,


----------



## SevenFX

trembling Hand said:


> But on a smaller time frame that is where the skill comes into it. Maybe even more than any Chart reading TA stuff.






trembling Hand said:


> With Intraday trading the trend is not your friend..






SevenFX said:


> Not sure if I follow what you mean TH, as isn't Micro trending (tic, min, hr) always occuring with each greater Macro trending (day, week, month, etc)




Thanks for your reply about setups, and makes more sense, perhaps like SPI triangle this morning at 5988...????

Can you also confirm what you mean't about your quote above, and what charts wouldn't help on a intraday micro level...?????

Thanks
SevenFX


----------



## professor_frink

trembling Hand said:


> I have made 19 trades so far this morning. Only 5 have been short. Also this is hard to do this stuff with CFds because of the spread.




19 trades in an hour and a half 

All on the SPI, or was there other markets involved as well?


----------



## Trembling Hand

professor_frink said:


> 19 trades in an hour and a half
> 
> All on the SPI, or was there other markets involved as well?




SPI. You Can't do this with CFDs.


----------



## professor_frink

trembling Hand said:


> SPI. You Can't do this with CFDs.




Nice work. Looks like a very busy morning! If you don't mind me asking TH, what's your average win/ loss ratio?


----------



## Trembling Hand

professor_frink said:


> Nice work. Looks like a very busy morning! If you don't mind me asking TH, what's your average win/ loss ratio?




Today was a good day for me Frink, 73% winners. thats higher than normal.


----------



## CanOz

The penny has finally dropped about your user name TH! If i tried that, i think i would have a trembling head!

Cheers,


----------



## professor_frink

trembling Hand said:


> Today was a good day for me Frink, 73% winners. thats higher than normal.




well done

It looks as though that kind of method would sometimes struggle when we get a strong trend. Looks like it would work a treat in the chop though


----------



## Trembling Hand

professor_frink said:


> well done
> 
> It looks as though that kind of method would sometimes struggle when we get a strong trend. Looks like it would work a treat in the chop though




Spot on Professor. I Have to change my game if its trending.


----------



## CFD

Trade_It said:


> ~~
> I prefer to position trade, short term trends on ~ some asx shares.
> 
> I read this in a John J Murphy Book:
> "Master day to day trading before you look to master intraday trading."
> All the best




This is what I do, but I get profits/reduced risk wiped out (with stop losses) on days like today. Thought on these days I should be able to trade intraday and get some money back.

Thanks for the replies, I will leave intraday in the overflowing too hard basket.


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## >Apocalypto<

CFD said:


> This is what I do, but I get profits/reduced risk wiped out (with stop losses) on days like today. Thought on these days I should be able to trade intraday and get some money back.
> 
> Thanks for the replies, I will leave intraday in the overflowing too hard basket.





CFD,

nothing saying u cant do it look at the xjo intra day ranges today not the best day to play on the intraday.

now if u watch the ig xjo and dow index at night u can enter in and catch the drop but be prepared for any wild swings on the dow.

cheers


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## Trembling Hand

Trade_It said:


> CFD,
> 
> nothing saying u cant do it look at the xjo intra day ranges today not the best day to play on the intraday.




You have got to be kidding! If you carn't take money intraday on a day like this what do you need? 8% move?



Trade_It said:


> now if u watch the ig xjo and dow index at night u can enter in and catch the drop but be prepared for any wild swings on the dow.
> 
> cheers




That's some weird way to trade. that's a crappy risk reward TI. looks more like a gamble than a trade


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## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> You have got to be kidding! If you carn't take money intraday on a day like this what do you need? 8% move?
> 
> after looking at the xjo intraday i see your point TH, I take that back. I have been playing the intraday on on FX SORRY I WAS MISTAKEN CFD.
> 
> That's some weird way to trade. that's a crappy risk reward TI. looks more like a gamble than a trade




after looking at the xjo intraday i see your point TH, I take that back. I have been playing the intraday on on *FX SORRY I WAS MISTAKEN CFD.*

LOL, works a treat for me. and that all the matters a super trader!


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## >Apocalypto<

Trade_It said:


> CFD,
> now if u watch the ig xjo and dow index at night u can enter in and catch the drop but be prepared for any wild swings on the dow.
> cheers




let me elaborate on this, now if the chart pattern is not there this can be a risky way to trade.

here is a example.

on the 2nd and the 3rd there were two minor rallies on the xjo, plus the dow made to rallies only on the last 30 min of biz these are not rules only added evidence to set the tone.

on the night of the 3rd i check the dow futures at 8.30pm they are weak then i see the IGXJO is not very negative so thats a good time to enter and a excellent risk reward TH! I place my short with a 25 ponit stop loss then I watch the futures into the open as I see them fall away I can see that minor rally will be sold down on the following day. Due to my early enter my spread is gone and my profit is growing that is nice and normal you dont want it to be acting too jumpy minor rallies ok but nothing that really drives back at u. I watch into the open of the US markets and yes I see its opened down hard and that's it case closed I go to bed. then in the morning you pocket the 60-100 premarket lead for the xjo. (if it did not swing u out)

I use it to get out of longs in profit before the carrnige as well.

a word of warning you need to see a pattern or lead up plus see the futures not acting right to make this a valid play, you can and will get hit be wild swings but hey who does not get hit by them time to time.this is great to use in times like this with huge sell downs, times where people are very nervous.

I suggest you open your mind and think out side the square TH.

Good trading.


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## CanOz

Not exactly on topic but i need help here...

IG Ripped me off bigtime. I entered a short trade today just before they shut the HK futures exchange for a typhoon. The price just froze, and the market went to 'call'. When it reopened i found i had been stopped out of the trade. They told me that because they use the SPX to calculate the after hours HS market (15:1) i got stopped out when the SPX spiked. But as you can see thier data did not show the spike. They admitted this as a mistake due to thier SPX data feed from Reuters. I argued that if it spiked i would have attempted to get out earlier. As it was i thought that i should have still been in the trade, and in profit.

Any thoughts on this? They said they will send me an email detailing why they did what they did...i think its time to finish my IB application.

Cheers,


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## Trembling Hand

CanOz said:


> Not exactly on topic but i need help here...
> 
> IG Ripped me off bigtime. I entered a short trade today just before they shut the HK futures exchange for a typhoon. The price just froze, and the market went to 'call'. When it reopened i found i had been stopped out of the trade. They told me that because they use the SPX to calculate the after hours HS market (15:1) i got stopped out when the SPX spiked. But as you can see thier data did not show the spike. They admitted this as a mistake due to thier SPX data feed from Reuters. I argued that if it spiked i would have attempted to get out earlier. As it was i thought that i should have still been in the trade, and in profit.
> 
> Any thoughts on this? They said they will send me an email detailing why they did what they did...i think its time to finish my IB application.
> 
> Cheers,





Whats the value of 10 mini HKs?


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## Trembling Hand

Trade_It said:


> now if the chart pattern is not there this can be a risky way to trade.
> this can be a risky way to trade.
> 
> I suggest you open your mind and think out side the square TH.
> 
> Good trading.




Quite happy in my box. plenty(100's) to trade there with 4 tick stops.


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## >Apocalypto<

Can i see another problem with there advanced tick charts.

what you should do is try to find other data from other MM to see if they spiked as well.

I personally think IG owe you the difference in the stop. unless other providers can back up the spike but I may be way out. as they make there own prices.

sorry that was not much help


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## CanOz

trembling Hand said:


> Whats the value of 10 mini HKs?




Its 100 HKD or roughly 16.00 AUD.

Your thoughts TH?

Cheers,


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## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> Quite happy in my box. plenty(100's) to trade there with 4 tick stops.




nice u crop my post with out the pattern point to right it off.

Good for u. ST


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## CanOz

Trade_It said:


> Can i see another problem with there advanced tick charts.
> 
> what you should do is try to find other data from other MM to see if they spiked as well.
> 
> I personally think IG owe you the difference in the stop. unless other providers can back up the spike but I may be way out. as they make there own prices.
> 
> sorry that was not much help




Tomorrow morning i will have the actual SPX futures data.

I'll try and see thier point of view before i go spouting off, but at the moment it looks cut and dry to me, how can anyone trade off data that is not shown?

Cheers,


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## >Apocalypto<

CanOz said:


> Tomorrow morning i will have the actual SPX futures data.
> 
> I'll try and see thier point of view before i go spouting off, but at the moment it looks cut and dry to me, how can anyone trade off data that is not shown?
> 
> Cheers,




I agree with you 100% in the early days I really thought it was impossible to trade their indexes, ranges were just so wide.

If you see any noticeable differences push them, really try to get prices for that time from other sources then compare them to what they tell u. Rub it in, I believe they should pay your stop if they made a mistake  

I have had words with my account manager once after he slipped a little two much on a stop.

My exact words were "what r u doing, r u asleep!"

they're blood suckers Can, not to be trusted.(any broker)


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## Trembling Hand

CanOz said:


> Its 100 HKD or roughly 16.00 AUD.
> 
> Your thoughts TH?
> 
> Cheers,




Sorry mate, not sure, I hate anything that's a MM model for that reason.

I would jump up and down but they will do what they want in the end. Was the same with warrants they use to do real dodgy stuff when I was trading them 7 or more years ago. i haven't look at one since.


How did they stop you out when the futures have not even traded? do they normally trade out of hours?

Only real suggestion is 
http://individuals.interactivebrokers.com/en/main.php


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## CanOz

trembling Hand said:


> How did they stop you out when the futures have not even traded? do they normally trade out of hours?
> 
> Only real suggestion is
> http://individuals.interactivebrokers.com/en/main.php




They make the market up, synthetically create it by multipying the SPX futures price by 15 to get a 'value' for the HS.

They said that even though it was normal trading hours, becuase the typhoon closed the markets they had to make the market with the SPX, as they normally do after hours.

Cheers,


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## CanOz

Trade_It said:


> I agree with you 100% in the early days I really thought it was impossible to trade their indexes, ranges were just so wide.
> 
> If you see any noticeable differences push them, really try to get prices for that time from other sources then compare them to what they tell u. Rub it in, I believe they should pay your stop if they made a mistake
> 
> I have had words with my account manager once after he slipped a little two much on a stop.
> 
> My exact words were "what r u doing, r u asleep!"
> 
> they're blood suckers Can, not to be trusted.(any broker)




Thanks TI, i'll push them on this as much as i can...in the end, they are a law unto themselves.

Cheers,


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## >Apocalypto<

CanOz said:


> They make the market up, synthetically create it by multipying the SPX futures price by 15 to get a 'value' for the HS.
> 
> They said that even though it was normal trading hours, becuase the typhoon closed the markets they had to make the market with the SPX, as they normally do after hours.
> 
> Cheers,




Well where does the spike come from they need to prove there was a reason to move the price up don't they. they need a influence to justify the price on the change over

Can thats crap to me.

Push them for a refund of the SL or you could be cheeky and say that this does not happen at CMC.

Good luck mate.


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## SevenFX

CanOz said:


> Thanks TI, i'll push them on this as much as i can...in the end, they are a law unto themselves.
> 
> Cheers,




Canaussieuck,

You experience with IG concern me, and think it would make a great starting Thread for "IGMarkets Things to Watch B4 Signing UP" or something to that affect.

They might be a law unto themselves, but their are a lot of IGMarkets Traders here, and they may have had similar experiences which would strenghtin your case should others heve experience this, or will experience this in the future.

Good thing the SPI (200 Forwards) don't have typhoons, and hope not Tsurmani either being on the east coast.

TI point on another platform that is (sudo DMA) showing same same will concerte your case.

SevenFX


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## CanOz

SevenFX said:


> Canaussieuck,
> 
> You experience with IG concern me, and think it would make a great starting Thread for "IGMarkets Things to Watch B4 Signing UP" or something to that affect.
> 
> They might be a law unto themselves, but their are a lot of IGMarkets Traders here, and they may have had similar experiences which would strenghtin your case should others heve experience this, or will experience this in the future.
> 
> Good thing the SPI (200 Forwards) don't have typhoons, and hope not Tsurmani either being on the east coast.
> 
> TI point on another platform that is (sudo DMA) showing same same will concerte your case.
> 
> SevenFX




Yes, i thought that might be a good idea idea Tek, but first i need to get thier email to me (sent to work) and then work with thier customer service people to try and resolve it. If its not a satisfactory outcome then i'll start the thread...interesting test for customer service though

Let everyone know how i go.

Cheers,


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## professor_frink

CanOz said:


> ....................
> 
> Any thoughts on this? They said they will send me an email detailing why they did what they did...i think its time to finish my IB application.
> 
> Cheers,




Morning canuck,

being with IB wouldn't have helped you in this situation much. Whilst you wouldn't have been stopped out on your trade(I'd be closing my a/c with IG over that if it were me, completely unacceptable), you would be left with the prospect of holding an extremely volatile index over the weekend in an already volatile market. Not good fun at all. Supposedly, it's standard procedure for the HK exchange to close 15 minutes after a Typhoon signal number 8 is raised. Unfortunately there was a lot of confusion yesterday about when that signal was actually raised, so IB didn't send out a bulletin until after the market had actually shut.

HK is now in it's peak typhoon season. You can try checking here before the market opens each day for any news-

http://www.hko.gov.hk/contente.htm


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## professor_frink

I should add that checking the observatory's website wouldn't have done much good yesterday, as they didn't give out much warning at all. Apparently, the storm did a fairly sudden U-turn and came back towards HK, meaning nobody got much warning about the signal being raised.


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## >Apocalypto<

professor_frink said:


> I should add that checking the observatory's website wouldn't have done much good yesterday, as they didn't give out much warning at all. Apparently, the storm did a fairly sudden U-turn and came back towards HK, meaning nobody got much warning about the signal being raised.




I think they should replace the stop amount to cans account, if they made a mistake due to unseen events like the typhoon.


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## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> Quite happy in my box. plenty(100's) to trade there with 4 tick stops.




TH aka ST

i want to get this right you make 100 point wins on the spi with 4 point risk.

you really are a super trader. mild mannered 100 point scalper by day and MM CFD buster by night.

what a life you lead!


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## professor_frink

Trade_It said:


> I think they should replace the stop amount to cans account, if they made a mistake due to unseen events like the typhoon.




agreed. I'm really surprised that they even attempt to have after hours trading for this index


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## Trembling Hand

Trade_It said:


> TH aka ST
> 
> i want to get this right you make 100 point wins on the spi with 4 point risk.
> 
> you really are a super trader. mild mannered 100 point scalper by day and MM CFD buster by night.
> 
> what a life you lead!




You always go on the attack TI anytime you get questioned. I said that you’re out of hours trade looked like a poor risk/reward setup (yes gamble). You tell me to think outside the square and my reply was I'm happy in my little game but you still had to go on. What is your problem? I said I can find 100's of trade setups with 4 tick losses. Not single trades that give me 100 ticks, just settle down a bit hey.From what I can tell you trade a small derivative of a derivative that is sold to low capitalized retail punters. The only reason I can see that someone would trade this is to learn or because they haven't the money to trade the real thing, that's fine, but really next time you go on the attack by telling someone to think outside the square make sure your "square" is as big as you really think its is. Because I'm guessing it’s a pretty small one.


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## >Apocalypto<

trembling Hand said:


> You always go on the attack TI anytime you get questioned. I said that you’re out of hours trade looked like a poor risk/reward setup (yes gamble). You tell me to think outside the square and my reply was I'm happy in my little game but you still had to go on. What is your problem? I said I can find 100's of trade setups with 4 tick losses. Not single trades that give me 100 ticks, just settle down a bit hey.From what I can tell you trade a small derivative of a derivative that is sold to low capitalized retail punters. The only reason I can see that someone would trade this is to learn or because they haven't the money to trade the real thing, that's fine, but really next time you go on the attack by telling someone to think outside the square make sure your "square" is as big as you really think its is. Because I'm guessing it’s a pretty small one.




16K is plenty for me at the moment TH.

considering I got down to 2K from 17 at one stage and now I have clawed it back. Yes I am a learner and I am proud of that not even two years yet. I have been busted out 2 times. I trade small cuz I follow a MM plan and I am learning. I risk 15$ per point max! (three xjo mini's on some trades)

No, right now I am not looking to take too many 25 per tick beatings but who is?

TH, I have been a smart ass with you and couple of my comments are a little over so sorry for upsetting u.

I question u, cuz I don't agree with you. If you question me I will reply with my reasons as I have, I don't have to agree with what you say, nor do u to me. I will continue to question u, If I don't agree with you. that's life.

I have been questioned and pulled up with out going on the attack, If i am wrong I admit to it right away.

But TH, just cuz your world is bigger then mine in $$ terms don't mean nothing! For gods sake I am 26 I should hope you have more cash then me.

So I will drop the smart ass remarks............

Good Trading,


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