# Air conditioning all night - have we all gone soft?



## Dukey (19 January 2010)

OK hands up all you tropical softies who sleep in the air-con all night... 


------ START RANT !!!!!!!! --------------
Lately I've been astounded by the number of people who can't live without air-con; winge every time they have to step outside; even sleep all night in a fridge, with the aircon on full blast - and then tell me they just like to snuggle under the doona!!!

 Bluddy crazy if you ask me. These same folks will wonder why the electrickery bill is out of control!

Now - don't get me wrong - I use air-con sometimes - but sparingly. I never sleep with it at home. A ceiling or pedistal fan (using a tiny fraction of the elec.) is just fine thank you very much.

Of course I know some people genuinely need it - sick and elderly etc. and certainly during heat waves etc. But I'm talking about healthy young things who are just addicted to their home comforts.

SUMMER IN OZ is HOT HOT HOT - get used to it or go to NZ!

No-one seems to ask the question... *What did grandma do without air-con???*

*ANS*:   she bluddy survived. she sweated, she worked and she probably lived longer than most of these modern softies will.

--------------END RANT (for now) -----------------

So what do you think .. _*HAVE WE ALL GONE SOFT ?*_


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## Nyden (19 January 2010)

Let's see - I have 2 choices.

Choice 1: Swelter through a 33 degree Melbourne night without reprieve, or any sleep.

Choice 2: Lay comfortably in my bed in a 20 degree room, with the air conditioner blowing away - all the while being dubbed a 'softy' by those 'tough' enough to survive without it.

Sorry poor people, and pensioners. I can afford aircon, and I intend on using it


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## BradK (19 January 2010)

Air conditioner broke last September, have not bothered getting it fixed. 

I agree - we all live in Australia and should harden the fuk up. 

Went to Dubai in October... air con there!! 

Brad


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## Agentm (19 January 2010)

pussies


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## Nyden (19 January 2010)

BradK said:


> Air conditioner broke last September, have not bothered getting it fixed.
> 
> I agree - we all live in Australia and should harden the fuk up.
> 
> ...




But, why? Please explain as to why I should harden up?

If I can be comfortable, or uncomfortable - why would I ever *choose* to be uncomfortable?

I'm sorry - but I have never understood the mentality to tough it out.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Poll now open.... for all you soft Bas#^%$^ards


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## gordon2007 (19 January 2010)

I'm happy to turn the air con on. But also reasonable about it too. I keep it around 22, sometimes 21. 

Try sharing an office with two very obese people who constantly complain it's hot and insist on air con being on at a lovely temp of 18. Then they whinge like crayz when it's shut off because it's just plain not needed. 

Oh well, that's a whole seperate rant.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Nyden said:


> But, why? Please explain as to why I should harden up?
> 
> If I can be comfortable, or uncomfortable - why would I ever *choose* to be uncomfortable?
> 
> I'm sorry - but I have never understood the mentality to tough it out.




It's not about choosing to be uncomfortable... its about choosing to live in a hot place, but then consuming ridiculous amount of resources to make it cool.

Heat waves etc are diff.   Maybe over 30 deg or something. 
but believe me there are plenty who use it all year up here (Townsville tropics) - and it's just not necessary.

Occasionally - yes.   
Habitually - no.


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## luap77 (19 January 2010)

I think that some modern houses are very stuffy and are basically designed to depend on A/C. I see some modern designs sans a decent eve overhang, hopeless windows, crammed side by side thereby restricting breeze etc I do just fine with a fan in summer, and yes it is hot. Two things play on my mind as why not to use the A/C; the cost (do the math, you'll be surprised) and the issue of wasting a large amount of precious electricity (environmental cost etc) on cooling my home just to be "comfortable". Others don't always share my views on this, which is fine, but as long as I pay the bills then I point out that the A/C and/or heating won't be used until people are first appropriately dressed for the ambient temperature. I don't think that heating a home to shorts and singlet/blouse temperatures in winter for example is an appropriate use of energy. Just my opinion though.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

OK - who voted "get a life"?

NYDEN.... was that you.
I'm dobbin on your mum!


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## moXJO (19 January 2010)

I have worked in up to 45 degree heat in direct sunlight. Most days spent in direct sun for over 10 hours. Call me a pu$$y but if I had air conditioning (too lazy to get it) it would be blasted on during hot nights. 

Comfort over hard hero any day...


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

luap77 said:


> I think that some modern houses are very stuffy and are basically designed to depend on A/C. I see some modern designs sans a decent eve overhang, hopeless windows, crammed side by side thereby restricting breeze etc I do just fine with a fan in summer, and yes it is hot. Two things play on my mind as why not to use the A/C; the cost (do the math, you'll be surprised) and the issue of wasting a large amount of precious electricity (environmental cost etc) on cooling my home just to be "comfortable". Others don't always share my views on this, which is fine, but as long as I pay the bills then I point out that the A/C and/or heating won't be used until people are first appropriately dressed for the ambient temperature. I don't think that heating a home to shorts and singlet/blouse temperatures in winter for example is an appropriate use of energy. Just my opinion though.




Good point - house designs are just stupid in the last 20 odd years.

I mean - low set, low roof, red brick, no eves, no verandahs... in the tropics.
Crazy... should be banned IMO.

Building standards enforcing a 
"build for the local environment" policy would be a good start.


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## MACCA350 (19 January 2010)

MELBOURNE has sweltered through its hottest night in more than 100 years.

Damn straight we had the AC running all that night

cheers


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## Bigukraine (19 January 2010)

if i do have it on all night doesn't matter it's an evap ,cost bugger all to run ,have windows open beautiful haaaaa! cooooool ! . What was the question again ???


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## Wysiwyg (19 January 2010)

> Lately I've been astounded by the number of people who can't live without air-con; winge every time they have to step outside; even sleep all night in a fridge, with the aircon on full blast - and then tell me they just like to snuggle under the doona!!!



That is fascinating! I'm so glad I don't have friends that whinge.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

moXJO said:


> I have worked in up to 45 degree heat in direct sunlight. Most days spent in direct sun for over 10 hours. Call me a pu$$y but if I had air conditioning (too lazy to get it) it would be blasted on during hot nights.
> 
> Comfort over hard hero any day...




30 deg C - with a fan is quite comfortable as far as I'm concerned.
by 3 am I'm usually cool enough to pull the sheet over.

But i agree - on real hot nights - its acceptable. 

The one I really don't get - is this "cool the room down till it's like a fridge, then sleep under a doona"

- unbelievable. 

- will anyone admit to that?  ( i can't hurt anyone from my terminal )


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

MACCA350 said:


> MELBOURNE has sweltered through its hottest night in more than 100 years.
> 
> Damn straight we had the AC running all that night
> 
> cheers




I have No problems with that at all - I would too!


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## Nyden (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> 30 deg C - with a fan is quite comfortable as far as I'm concerned.
> by 3 am I'm usually cool enough to pull the sheet over.
> 
> But i agree - on real hot nights - its acceptable.
> ...




I do admit to sleeping under the blanket. Why? Because I simply cannot sleep without it. Don't know why, I suppose it's comforting.

This isn't a third world country. My sleeping habits are none of your business. If I choose to to run an air-conditioner, at the same time as running the fireplace, as well as a bedside space heater - all the while sleeping on a snow-leopard lined bed, with panda-stuffed blankets - that really is my choice.

The dream, of course - is to to one day have a solid gold bed. A slap in the face to those without, and all the while my perfectly climate-controlled house keeps me from feeling every a whiff of discomfort throughout my perfect, guilt-free nights sleep.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Bigukraine said:


> if i do have it on all night doesn't matter it's an evap ,cost bugger all to run ,have windows open beautiful haaaaa! cooooool ! . What was the question again ???




The question was.....

Nice hair fella! ... ?


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Nyden said:


> I do admit to sleeping under the blanket. Why? Because I simply cannot sleep without it. Don't know why, I suppose it's comforting.




ahhh nyden Nyden nyden....
  try drinking a good slug of port before bed... that'll knock you out!

...looks like the planet is toast - judging by the poll.


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## moXJO (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> The one I really don't get - is this "cool the room down till it's like a fridge, then sleep under a doona"
> 
> - unbelievable.
> 
> - will anyone admit to that?  ( i can't hurt anyone from my terminal )




Lol the "Me" mantra in full effect


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## Purple XS2 (19 January 2010)

Overhead fan. Used to be de rigueur in the top-end, though they've probably gone all soft too by now.

A little bit of air circulation is all you need on a hot night. I agree that a closed up room on a 30 degree night is unpleasant, but there's better answers than air-con.

Disclosure: I'm in Tassie. 
Claim: I've spent several years in the tropics, central Aus.


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## awg (19 January 2010)

Yes we are breeding pussies

I set mine to 25C at night, so it only comes on occassionaly.

27C daytime.

However my family, especially kids, whinge like hell and want to set it to as low as 21C.   ....they have a/c since birth

As mine is 3-phase ducted and power bills have, and will continue to rise steeply, I dont want to be paying needlessly.

Of course, they pay absolutely no heed to my argument to save the planet either


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

moXJO said:


> Lol the "Me" mantra in full effect




Yup - and reaches into realms beyond A/C.

..... the consume or die mentality  is alive and well.

Imagine what would happen if every chinese person had the A/C on all night.

I wonder if someone can answer definitively......  maybe a Q? for smurf - 
*what is the net temperature effect of an air-conditioner*?

ie - yes they cool the room they are intended to, but do they produce an *excess of heat outside* ... I would expect so, since they consume alot of energy - which usually creates heat..... does it not?


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## Wysiwyg (19 January 2010)

I wonder if an air conditioner 24/7 would consume on average the same amount of electricity as a refrigerator which is on 24/7 in every home?


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

awg said:


> Yes we are breeding pussies
> 
> I set mine to 25C at night, so it only comes on occassionaly.
> 
> ...




Thats the problem hey (highlights above) - people don't know anything else.

Reminds of going to see Al Gores move with my ex-fiance...  she was raving on the way home about how terrible it was.  Later that night I went around turning off the excess lighting (place was lit up like a christmas tree) - and she got up me cause didn't like walking into a dark room.... 40+ years old.    

maybe kids need to be taught 'logic' at school. - cause theres not alot of it about sometimes.


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## Bigukraine (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> Yup - and reaches into realms beyond A/C.
> 
> ..... the consume or die mentality  is alive and well.
> 
> ...




If the chinese had their a/c on all  night (that would would be xxx billion of them) and they got the power from their nuke power stations........ I think you have found a cure for global warming.!!!!!!!!!!! Nobel Peace Prize for you !!!!!!:bananasmi


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> I wonder if an air conditioner 24/7 would consume on average the same amount of electricity as a refrigerator which is on 24/7 in every home?




WAAAYYYYYYYYY  more!

Document below suggests :

500 litre 2 door fridge (thats a BIG one!) = about $11-14 per month.

4-6 star Reverse cycle split system = about $30-35 per month - but thats  based on 4 hours per day!!    so  X 6  = $180 - 215 per month.


... and I'm pretty sure that doc is based on old elec. price figures.  
Electrickery is costing more per unit each year.


http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...S_XeKr6SJIlB3AUaw&sig2=ODAG5_ZxYwKQmxAKdltXIg


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Bigukraine said:


> If the chinese had their a/c on all  night (that would would be xxx billion of them) and they got the power from their nuke power stations........ I think you have found a cure for global warming.!!!!!!!!!!! Nobel Peace Prize for you !!!!!!:bananasmi




Maybe we all have to concede and go nuke then?.....

I hate the idea but..............


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## Bigukraine (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> Maybe we all have to concede and go nuke then?.....
> 
> I hate the idea but..............




:topic Question ? If the nuke reactor's in china had a melt down what would you call it ???? the china syndrome doesn't fit does it ? Could br a topic for a new thread


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## awg (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> I wonder if someone can answer definitively......  maybe a Q? for smurf -
> *what is the net temperature effect of an air-conditioner*?
> 
> ie - yes they cool the room they are intended to, but do they produce an *excess of heat outside* ... I would expect so, since they consume alot of energy - which usually creates heat..... does it not?





As they work on heat exchange principle, the external fan unit blows hot air into the atmosphere, and as efficiency is below 100%, nett effect would be more heat imo, as much electrical energy is also converted into heat from compressor and fan motors




Wysiwyg said:


> I wonder if an air conditioner 24/7 would consume on average the same amount of electricity as a refrigerator which is on 24/7 in every home?




Energy ratings are readily available.

For a smallish room a/c, similar to a fridge wattage wise, however a large ducted unit uses WAY more.

Obviously depends on the amount of time compressor is run, as well as power wattage consumption.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> WAAAYYYYYYYYY  more!
> 
> Document below suggests :
> 
> ...




But of course 24/7 cooling is more efficient in some senses - since you aren't cooling the room down from scratch every time you switch on.

Maintaining a cool temp. has to be more efficient than the initial cool down.....    24/7 would still be very exp. though.  
All depends on ambient temps, size of the spaces being cooled, number of cooling units etc.   quite a complicated calculation.

the figures in the doc are also for one cooling unit - of some unstated average size i presume.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Bigukraine said:


> :topic Question ? If the nuke reactor's in china had a melt down what would you call it ???? the china syndrome doesn't fit does it ? Could br a topic for a new thread




 :topicWell if America had the China syndrome ... then......  it will have to be the America Syndrome. ..... or USA syndrome?   
first sounds better 


gotta go out for a bit....


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## Wysiwyg (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> WAAAYYYYYYYYY  more!
> Document below suggests :
> 
> 500 litre 2 door fridge (thats a BIG one!) = about $11-14 per month.
> ...





awg said:


> Energy ratings are readily available.
> For a smallish room a/c, similar to a fridge wattage wise, however a large ducted unit uses WAY more.
> Obviously depends on the amount of time compressor is run, as well as power wattage consumption.




Will continue to use sparingly. Thanks.


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## matty77 (19 January 2010)

yadda yadda yadda

maybe we shouldnt give toys to kids because we dont want to spoil them? Maybe we should all ride push bikes to work, I mean only lazy people drive cars to work, sun burn cream is for soft people who are scared of the sun, a little cancer? haha hurts nobody.....

but on a serious note each person is different, some people need the aircon as they just cant handle the heat, personally I use a fan or nothing..


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## luap77 (19 January 2010)

I've been told that a properly designed straw bale house is usually 15 deg cooler in summer and 15 deg warmer in winter when compared to your typical brick veneer. Anybody comment on this? This would cut down on A/C use quite a bit if it's true.


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## awg (19 January 2010)

straw bale is good due to insulation properties.

However a house designed using all methods of passive solar design will optimise
internal temps.

its a great pity this subject is not more well known, the principles are easy to understand


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Will continue to use sparingly. Thanks.




don't believe us... check it out for yourself wysiwig...

lots of calculators here: 
http://www.dme.qld.gov.au/Energy/energy_savings_calculator.cfm

generally - unit wattage(kWh)  X hours of use  X energy cost per kW (usually 15-18c/kW at the moment) = running cost.


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## Julia (19 January 2010)

I don't get turning the air con to cold and then sleeping under a doona!
That's just wasteful, isn't it?

The point about house design is relevant.  Good passive solar design will allow the winter sun in and keep the summer sun out.

I turn on the aircon probably two nights each summer, but wouldn't suffer discomfort unnecessarily if too hot.

Have never understood the desire of some of the population for self-flagellation, i.e. we have ruined the planet so we must now do vicious penance in the form of making ourselves miserable.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

Julia said:


> I don't get turning the air con to cold and then sleeping under a doona!
> That's just wasteful, isn't it?
> 
> The point about house design is relevant.  Good passive solar design will allow the winter sun in and keep the summer sun out.
> ...




I agree - but there are some nice icons that come to mind...

:whip   :behead:     

maybe super-consumers should be flagellated!


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## bellenuit (19 January 2010)

I must admit I leave the aircon on about 4 or 5 nights over the summer on those few nights that the temperature in Perth makes it impossible for sleeping.

What I don't understand though, is why people who have no problem sleeping when the temperature is 24 or such, set their air con to cool the room to 20 or 21.


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## Dukey (19 January 2010)

bellenuit said:


> I must admit I leave the aircon on about 4 or 5 nights over the summer on those few nights that the temperature in Perth makes it impossible for sleeping.
> 
> What I don't understand though, is why people who have no problem sleeping when the temperature is 24 or such, set their air con to cool the room to 20 or 21.




  we are addicted to creature comforts... and we will pay for it sooner or later !
  :fan  :horse:     

(actually this thread is just an excuse for me to use lots of cool emoticons.)

just goes to show - the 8 folks who said I'm a dropkick are probably right!


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## Buckfont (19 January 2010)

That`s a pisser dukey, and I look forward to the largest no. of icons that you can put into one post at the same time:


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## Mr J (19 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> But I'm talking about healthy young things who are just addicted to their home comforts.




This healthy young thing doesn't mind a hot, sweaty healthy young thing lying next to him on a hot summer night :. I've barely used a fan all summer let alone air-con, but then Sydney has only had a few hot days, at least in the east.


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## Smurf1976 (20 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> I wonder if someone can answer definitively......  maybe a Q? for smurf -
> *what is the net temperature effect of an air-conditioner*?
> 
> ie - yes they cool the room they are intended to, but do they produce an *excess of heat outside* ... I would expect so, since they consume alot of energy - which usually creates heat..... does it not?



If you have a 6kW (for example) split air-conditioner then:

6kW of heat removed from the room, all of which is exhausted outside.

About 2kw of heat added (outside) from electricity used to run it.

About 0.2kW heat from transmission lines, distribution lines, transformers.

Typically about 6kW heat from power stations. That will vary from over 8 kW (older open cycle gas turbines) to very low (modern hydro plants produce virtually no heat - older ones it would go up to about 0.2 kW) but it's generally somewhere around 6kW from typical Australian power stations burning black coal or gas.

So all up, you're moving 6kW of heat from inside to outside plus adding about 6.2kW of extra heat from power generation, most of which (unless you're in Adelaide where most power is generated in the metro area) will be at power stations well away from where you live.

As for the original question, well I don't have air-conditioning but if I did then I wouldn't bother with it overnight here in Tassie. Hot weather is a bit of a novelty so I'd rather not miss out on it (we did get a pretty warm night a week or two ago - slept with no sheets at all).

But on the other hand, I do get through about 4 tonnes of firewood each year for heating the house (that's pretty low by the way - 6 tonnes would be more normal). And I'll be in Adelaide in a couple of weeks - if it's 40 degrees when I go to bed then the A/C in the hotel room will certainly be on - but not to the point of turning the place into a fridge.

I was at a site meeting in a portable building on a warm (low 30's) day a week or two ago. It was 17 degrees in that room which is ridiculous in my opinion. A real waste of energy.


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## Smurf1976 (20 January 2010)

Smurf1976 said:


> If you have a 6kW (for example) split air-conditioner then:
> 
> 6kW of heat removed from the room, all of which is exhausted outside.
> 
> ...



Just realised that's a bit confusing...

Typically about 6kW of heat going in to the power station, not coming out of it. After allowing for that which actually becomes electricity:

6kW heat removed from room and sent outside

2kW added from the electricity used in the compressor

0.2kW from transmission lines etc

4kW actual heat dumped at power stations from about 6.2kW fuel input (roughly, it varies from plant to plant).


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## Tink (20 January 2010)

haha Dukey, I say the same thing.

I wont use air con through the night cause I get a sore throat in the morning, ceiling fans are just fine. 

I dont have a problem sleeping when its hot.


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## Dukey (20 January 2010)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just realised that's a bit confusing...
> 
> Typically about 6kW of heat going in to the power station, not coming out of it. After allowing for that which actually becomes electricity:
> 
> ...




Thanks smurf - so is it fair to  say that (approximately) - 

- For every unit of 'coolness'  (BTU?) we create inside the room  - we cause twice as many units of heat outside?

.... interesting.

I wonder if anyone has calculated the heat generated by a worlds worth of air conditioners.... would be interesting to see how significant that number is.

.... ah and Mr J....    way to go!


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## Logique (20 January 2010)

G'day Dukey.

I think it's ok during heatwaves. Half asleep people can be dangerous the next day, on the road and in the workplace.  Great point made earlier about more sympathetic house design. And a fan can be as good and less energy demanding than full air con.  If people are worried about it the energy consumption - perhaps think about installing some solar panels on the roof, run your hot water off them as well. 

I get more uptight about it during winter - people want tropical temperatures, especially in offices. Then walk outside into a huge temp drop, with the flu and all sorts of viruses floating around.


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## moXJO (20 January 2010)

I don't know whether it was just me being half asleep the other night, but I thought I saw an ad for a self cooling bed?


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## awg (20 January 2010)

Mr J said:


> This healthy young thing doesn't mind a hot, sweaty healthy young thing lying next to him on a hot summer night :. I've barely used a fan all summer let alone air-con, but then Sydney has only had a few hot days, at least in the east.




Dear Mr J,

Aircon is a marital aid on a hot summer night..and a cold winter one

no pun on the thread title intended


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## zzaaxxss3401 (20 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> Good point - house designs are just stupid in the last 20 odd years.
> 
> I mean - low set, low roof, red brick, no eves, no verandahs... in the tropics.
> Crazy... should be banned IMO.
> ...




Ditto in Victoria. Here you get all of the above PLUS a dark colored (heat absorbing) roof, poor insulation, and double-storey (fit as much as you can on a tiny urban block). Bring on "smart power meters" I say. All those large electricity consumers can then be selectively shed by the power companies to save having to build bigger power stations. 

Solution: Go to the pub (where's it's always the perfect temperature to consume beer), and stagger home at 1am. By this stage, you don't care what the temperature is - you're too mutless to care! :


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## CanOz (20 January 2010)

In the summer here in Northern China it can get real hot and humid and the nights stay that way. I used to use the AC every night without question, but my GF complained it was too cold. So one night i tried just using the fan on the Split unit as it directs air right onto my side of the bed. 

I found that not only do i not need the AC anymore, but its actually a better feeling waking up in the morning without the dehydration caused by the AC unit. We've cut our energy bill in half, and even though i don't pay for it this gives me good feeling.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## Dukey (20 January 2010)

CanOz said:


> In the summer here in Northern China it can get real hot and humid and the nights stay that way. I used to use the AC every night without question, but my GF complained it was too cold. So one night i tried just using the fan on the Split unit as it directs air right onto my side of the bed.
> 
> I found that not only do i not need the AC anymore, but its actually a better feeling waking up in the morning without the dehydration caused by the AC unit. We've cut our energy bill in half, and even though i don't pay for it this gives me good feeling.
> 
> ...




Cool - nice to see some folks thinking outside the box. I agree - I avoid sleeping in A/C if I can - dries out eyes and sinuses too much.  


still hunting for info on the direct heating effect of millions of A/C's.

what got me thinking about that in particular - was christmas day. This was at my place in townsville. Temp was maybe 33 and very humid after some good rains. My nephew had a portable a/c in the shed and we decided to use it since we'd have 10-12 people in the living room. Just one of those situations that would be almost unbearable w/out A/c - although again - the oldies lived through it quite happily  just 20-30 years ago.....

anyway - we set the thing up and these portable units have ducting that comes out the back to remove the 'exhaust' air. The poor thing was way too small for the room and struggling big time, but it did help a bit. got the room down to 29ish I guess.

BUT... the heat coming out that exhaust ducting was phenomenal!  My gut tells me it was way in excess of the 'cool' coming out the front of the unit (or rather way in excess of the heat being removed from the room).

......

my other question is why don't we use that 'waste' heat for water heating? or make use of it in some other way?


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## Dukey (20 January 2010)

Bingo!! - ask and you shall receive...

http://www.toad.net/~jsmeenen/recovery.html

never heard of a 'hot water recovery unit' - but  it seems they exist.

 - some bolt on extra to use the waste heat from certain appliances such as A/C and fridges etc.

... will sus out if they available in Oz.


.... stay tuned for the next episode of....* Anti-Air-Con-Man!!!!*


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## Dukey (20 January 2010)

Sorry - talking to myself ... but I'm on a roll...

The Japanese have looked into the environmental heating aspects of A/C in 'office' districts of the city...

http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1175/JAM2441.1&ct=1

from the abstract ...


> The waste heat from the air conditioners has caused *a temperature rise of 1 °–2 °C or more on weekdays *in the Tokyo office areas. This heating promotes the heat-island phenomenon in Tokyo on weekdays. Thus, it is shown that the energy consumption process (mainly with air conditioning) in buildings should be included in the modeling of summertime air temperature on weekdays in urban areas.




SO even if it's just on local level, the effect is significant... and of course requires more A/C to overcome it. ... a vicious cycle.

===========

interesting how the poll has changed - 'we deserve what we get' has overtaken 'burn the planet'...but I'm still a dropkick (obviously)


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## Dukey (21 January 2010)

(stupid accent required... please continue)

D1- Hey Dukey hows things?
D2- Good - I've been hunting interesting articles on A/C waste heat and efficency devices etc.
D1-Got anything interesting?
D2- Well... this one's a bit freaky but strangely cool at the same time...
*Dead People Are Cool: Crematorium Heat Powers Air Conditioning*

D1-You ARE a freak.... dropkick!
D2- I know. What can I say... I try..... got a waste heat recovery unit here  
http://www.turbotecproducts.com/EPspecs.html
- dunno what it's worth though... yet.  Looks like a spiffing unit though old chap, what!
D1- I say .. indeed it does Dukey old boy. Very tidy spiral tubing there. Takes me back to the ole days when I discovered the DNA double helix. What else have you found?
D2- Got this one... as is often the case, the military might well be leading the way in developing hi-tech waste heat recovery units  -->>   http://www.nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=7678

D1- ....      ....  .... .... God, you're a boring tw@t. Don't you have anything better to do? Like our friend "Mr J." for instance? Nudge nudge, wink wink!
D2-  I know, ... sorry... wish I did,  but well... my ugliness quotient exceeds my boringness quotient by quite a bit, so I'm out of luck there. 
D1- Never mind old chap - there are plenty of fish-wives in the sea.. just got to get out there and "wet a line" if you know what I mean... nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...
D2- .... Bugger off dropkick!! 
D! - Not until you say It.
D2 - say what?
D1 - JUST SAY IT!!
D2 - "NO MORE" !! 
D1 - (quietly) thank god for that.....:bonk:


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## Smurf1976 (21 January 2010)

Dukey said:


> still hunting for info on the direct heating effect of millions of A/C's.
> 
> BUT... the heat coming out that exhaust ducting was phenomenal!  My gut tells me it was way in excess of the 'cool' coming out the front of the unit (or rather way in excess of the heat being removed from the room).
> 
> ...



The short answer is that the heat exhausted is equal to the heat extracted from the room (cooling) plus the electricity consumed to do it. So a 6kW air-conditioner (6kW cooling rating) exhausts 6kW from the room plus another 2kW from the electricity used. That's a bit simplified and not taking water extraction from the air into account but in simple terms that's how it works.

If you want to calculated the full impact then you need to add heat emissions from power stations as per my previous post. For any type of fuel burning or nuclear power station, a lot of heat is released there.

As for putting the heat to use, all the hot water in my house is heated by an air-conditioner effectively running backwards. It blows cold air outside from a very conventional looking A/C unit (you wouldn't know the difference just looking at it) and uses the heat extracted to heat the hot water tank located under the house. 

The system should cut my electricty use by 70% compared to the conventional off-peak electric water heater it replaced. I've only had it running since the 23rd of December 2009 but so far the figures are looking very good. The system has no booster of any type and should suffer only a small loss of performace during winter - it should still average 70% saving over the year. 

I'm not sure about the other states, but in Tasmania about 30% of all homes are heated by the same means and this is increasing at about 3% per year and accounts for the vast majority of new and replacement heating installations. The reason is simple - using reverse cycle A/C for heating typically costs only $475 a year which is a lot cheaper than other electric heaters (around $1400), oil ($2400) or LPG ($2700). (Figures based on typical usage in typical 3 bed house in Tas of 12MWh heat input to main living area per annum, a figure generally accepted since the 1970's).

The overall environmental impact of A/C depends a lot on the climate. People in Adelaide, Perth, Brisbane etc blame them for CO2 emissions, huge power bills and blackouts. 

Tasmanians on the other hand are often genuinely confused as to why there's no government incentive to install them as there is for solar hot water - air-conditioning being quite rightly viewed as a very "green" thing to have in a cooler climate such as Tas due to the energy it saves.


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## alphaman (22 January 2010)

Smurf1976 said:


> As for putting the heat to use, all the hot water in my house is heated by an air-conditioner effectively running backwards. It blows cold air outside from a very conventional looking A/C unit (you wouldn't know the difference just looking at it) and uses the heat extracted to heat the hot water tank located under the house.



Smurf are you talking about a heat pump? Which one do you have?


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## Julia (22 January 2010)

alphaman said:


> Smurf are you talking about a heat pump? Which one do you have?



I was going to ask the same question.
I have one for heating/cooling the pool and it's extremely expensive to run, not cost effective at all.


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## Dukey (22 January 2010)

Heat pumps for hot water system are becoming more popular in the north too. ....   if they  have a cool 'exhaust' then I presume you could pipe that into the house for a very minor cooling effect.

probably negligible in hot climates...?

-------------

PS - does no-one appreciate my late night piss-poor effort at humour?

how about the the crematorium?  There's some good thinking going on there.  ... as long as the managers don't start buying dead (or soon to be dead bodies !) to keep the lights on!!
.... could lead to monty-pythonesque 'bring out your dead' type scenes in Korea.

"But I'm not dead yet"
"Dont worry bout it - he'll still burn. heres your $10"   
==============


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## Smurf1976 (22 January 2010)

Yes, it's a heat pump water heater. 1.4kW compressor, 327 litre stainless steel tank. It's a split system with the compressor outside and the tank under the house. Made in Australia using a Japanese compressor - it seems to be a quality unit in my opinion.

It's a Siddons Solarstream www.siddonssolarstream.com and cost $2990 installed after REC's and $1000 government rebate. That was with me doing the electrical connection myself, plumber did everything else. 

Pool heating - yes it will cost $$$ to run but if you just had an ordinary non-heat pump electric heater then that would cost literally 3 to 4 times as much (!!!).

Cooling the house. If you're using 10 kWh of hot water per day (that's the average here in Tas using electricity industry data) then you'd get a net 7kWh or so cooling per day if you put the compressor inside. It's not silent so you wouldn't put in the house as such, but you could foreseeably duct it to the inside or alternatively use it to cool a garage etc at effectively no cost.

I tend to avoid the term "heat pump" anywhere there's a national audience. It's generally an accepted term for water heaters certainly, but for heating a house or building the term "reverse cycle air-conditioner" is almost universally used in most parts of Australia, the exception being Tasmania where they have always been known as "heat pumps". 

There's quite a few regional differences in attitudes towards different energy sources. Perth, Adelaide and especially Melbourne rely heavily on gas, to the point that some consider it essential and dread the thought of using electricity for hot water, heating and especially cooking. It's common in Victoria to find a house with air-conditioning also has gas heating. The opposite view prevails in Tasmania where split system heat pumps are seen by most as the preferred means of heating in every way.

Then go to NSW or Qld where energy bills are relatively low and most aren't to worried about it.


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## awg (22 January 2010)

If I can ask a quick question

Does anyone have experience with portable room aircon units?

My parents-in-law are aged and very unwell atm, so I decided to to buy them one tommorrow as it is over 40C and knocking them about.

(of course my father-in-law says he doesnt need one, being an old country boy, but if they can sleep better at night it will be money well spent as asfaic)

I have seen them for sale at Harvey Norman and other stores and I think they cost about $1000...main aim is to be able to cool a standard size bedroom at night


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## Julia (22 January 2010)

awg, I'm not sure if it's the same thing but I recall a corner shop in NZ (which would be, say three times the size of a standard double bedroom and which had those coloured strips of plastic across the doorway allowing flow of cold air out and hot air in) used a portable evaporative air con unit which was very effective, surprisingly so.

It was a unit a bit less than a metre square on a stand with height of about half a metre. 

That was many years ago so I'd imagine they are much more efficient these days.

Nice of you to get the unit for them.  Goodonya.


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## MACCA350 (23 January 2010)

awg said:


> If I can ask a quick question
> 
> Does anyone have experience with portable room aircon units?
> 
> ...



We baught one around $1300 a few years ago, compared to the cheaper box-in-window type they are not much chop. But if you're only planning to cool a closed bedroom it may do the job. Their cooling efficiency is not as good as the box-in-window style since the heat exchanger and piping is still in the room and they just don't have much capacity.

We used ours in the lounge/kitchen/dining area and closed off the rest of the house. On a 40deg day it'd be about 35deg with 5 of us in there. I made a curtain to isolate the lounge and that would bring it down to about 30deg.

2 years ago I had enough with it and baught a box-in-window type, largest you can run on a 15A plug which cost $750...........best thing I ever did. This thing cools the entire house. 43deg day earlier in the week and the main living area was 24deg all day.

My personal opinion would be do it once and do it right. You should be able to get a decent split installed that will easily do the bedroom for under $1k
You also need to make sure you get the right sized unit for the area you want to cool, otherwise the thing will run like crazy and never do it's job

cheers


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## Smurf1976 (23 January 2010)

Best choice - split system. Very solid performance and relatively quiet. It's generally the most expensive option however.

Second choice - box in window. Works as well as a split system and is equally efficient but is considerably noisier inside.

Only if there's no alternative - portable air-conditioner. Less energy efficient, lower performance, the noisiest and with most you need to empty condensate water as well. Better than nothing but not as good as a permanently installed air-conditioner.

Personally, if it's for a permanent installation I'd get a permanently installed box in the window A/C or, if the budget permits, a split system.


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## awg (23 January 2010)

Thx for the replies folks.

They are now sitting in a much cooler room, while the temp is 40C outside.

Grandma is having treatment for cancer, so I wanted something now, they are in their 80s

bought a DeLonghi 12000 BTU reverse Cycle for $800, fitted it up in an hour.

Noise is acceptable, boy they sure pump out some heat via the exhaust ducting! 

I agree a split or wall mounted unit is much better for long term, my rental property has one and the tenant loves it, 

however at this time of year would have taken a while to get one fitted
to in-laws place, aircon installers are run off their feet atm


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## Smurf1976 (23 January 2010)

awg said:


> Grandma is having treatment for cancer, so I wanted something now, they are in their 80s
> 
> bought a DeLonghi 12000 BTU reverse Cycle for $800, fitted it up in an hour.



Totally agree with your "need it now" thinking given the circumstances.


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## alphaman (23 January 2010)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's not silent so you wouldn't put in the house as such, but you could foreseeably duct it to the inside or alternatively use it to cool a garage etc at effectively no cost.



Smurf how does the Siddon's noise compare with an average split system A/C?

My existing electric heater is in the garage, so I would actually prefer having the heat pump inside, if it's not too noisy.


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## Smurf1976 (23 January 2010)

alphaman said:


> Smurf how does the Siddon's noise compare with an average split system A/C?
> 
> My existing electric heater is in the garage, so I would actually prefer having the heat pump inside, if it's not too noisy.



Same sound as the outside unit of a split system of the same rating (about 4.4kW cooling capacity or a bit under 2 HP).

Main issue to consider with noise from such a unit is that, unlike a room air-conditioner, it will be running at times when you may not want any noise. If it's on off-peak power or if you use significant amounts of hot water in the evening then it will be running at night. For that reason personally I wouldn't want it near a bedroom.

I can't see a problem with putting it inside a garage though and I'm aware of that being done by others. You wouldn't really hear it inside at all I would think. I have the tank inside (under house) and compressor outside mainly because I do use the garage as a workshop so didn't want cold air being blown around.

I'll post a photo of the installation in a day or two hopefully.


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## noirua (8 August 2021)

What Air Conditioning Does to Your Body
					

Do you use air conditioning to stay cool in the heat? Here’s how it could be affecting your body.




					www.webmd.com


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## Knobby22 (8 August 2021)

Ceiling fans, cheaper, healthier, more environmentally friendly.


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## basilio (8 August 2021)

A fan and a wet towel. Works a treat  - for a while.

Mind you when day time temperatures reach the 40's and then drop to high 30's at night there will be some serious repercussions.


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## StockyGuy (8 August 2021)

Inside the home temperature modification, up and down, is one of the MANY alleged reasons for modern obesity epidemics.  But obviously it can't be avoided in many cases.  Doing the W@H thing,  can barely think when is too hot/cold.  I try to stretch myself around the edges though and not use heating/cooling devices if can comfortably avoid.  In summer I very rarely use any cooling at night.


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