# 15 ways rich people think differently



## Tyler Durden (24 December 2012)

Found this today, even though the article was done in September, so apologies in advance if it has been posted before.

*1. Rich people think selfishness is a virtue
Average people feel they need to save the world and put others before themselves which is keeping them poor. Rich people take the attitude that if they don’t help themselves first they can’t help anyone else.

2. Rich people have an action mentality
You wouldn’t see a rich person lining up to play the lottery (even before they were rich). Average people are always waiting on someone else to help them get rich - the Lotto, Government, friend or spouse – but it only keeps them poor. Rich people take action and spend time solving problems.

3. Rich people favour specific knowledge over formal education
Average people believe the road to riches is through doing masters and doctorates. Rich people are generally rich because they have made money selling a specific knowledge they have acquired. 

4. Rich people dream of the future
Rich people spend a lot of time looking into the future, setting goals and looking forward to what lies ahead. Average people dwell on the past which often holds them back by making them unhappy or depressed.

5. Rich people think about money logically
Average and well-educated people can fall into the trap of thinking about money emotionally and just wanting to retire comfortably. Rich people maintain a logical relationship with money viewing it as a tool that represents options and opportunities.

6. Rich people follow their passion
Oprah Winfrey said it – you’ve got to follow your passion and do what you love. Rich people find a way of getting paid for doing something they love. Average people earn money doing things they don’t love.

7. Rich people aim high
Average people set low expectations to avoid disappointment whereas rich people set huge expectations and follow their dreams.

8. Rich people believe you have to “be” someone
Average people on the other hand believe you have to “do” something to be rich and focus on immediate results. Rich people continuously focus on bettering themselves and learn from success and failures.

9. Rich people use other people’s money
Average people believe they need their own money to make money whereas rich people have no problem using other people’s.

10. Rich people live below their means
It seems contradictory to the above statement but rich people adopt the attitude of getting rich so you can afford to live below your means. Average people live beyond their means.

11. Rich people teach their children how to be rich
Average people teach their children how to survive whereas rich people teach their children from an early age about the world of haves and have nots. 

12. Rich people don’t let money stress them out
Average people do. Rich people find peace of mind in wealth and are not afraid to admit that money can solve most problems – allowing them to make more money. Average people see money as a continuous battle and necessary evil they have to endure.

13. Rich people would rather be educated than entertained
Average people are the opposite. They read novels, tabloids and entertainment rather than continuously educating themselves after school.

14. Rich people surround themselves with like-minded people
Average people think rich people are snobs and have a negative attitude towards the super rich. Rich people steer clear of the doom and gloom attitudes and people – adding fuel to the fire of the “snob” label.

15. Rich people focus on earning
Average people focus on saving and miss big opportunities by trying to live frugally. Rich people constantly focus on the big picture – and how to earn the big bucks.*

http://www.news.com.au/business/wor...hink-differently/story-e6frfm9r-1226464697808

Do you agree, disagree?


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## waza1960 (24 December 2012)

I would agree with all of those points however IMO other factors are more at play usually such as inheriting money,luck and timing


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## cynic (24 December 2012)

When I read your posts Tyler, I get the sense that our ideas on wealth accumulation/generation are very similar.

Item 15 is the only item with which I find myself in significant disagreement, so I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on it.


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## TikoMike (24 December 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> 3. Rich people favour specific knowledge over formal education
> Average people believe the road to riches is through doing masters and doctorates. Rich people are generally rich because they have made money selling a specific knowledge they have acquired.




This is my favorite one. Academics are a joke. Also because of my journey to obtain CPA next to my name (hopefully the last bit of useless study I will ever have to do in my life), I feel academics are just a little behind telemarketers and parking fine inspectors on people I despise based on their chosen work.

Yes I know my statement is a bit of a oxymoron but I'm primarily using my career as capital leverage for the future.


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## tech/a (24 December 2012)

Yes all of including 15
But I also agree strongly with WAZA on luck.
Not TGA all rich people become rich due to luck
But they recognize opportunity which when acted
Upon and benefit gained seem that they are the luckiest
People on the planet.

Difference between them and most others is they 
DO SOMETHING!


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## Garpal Gumnut (24 December 2012)

The mark of a person is adversity, and the corollary to richness is poverty.

I find many rich people to be good and productive people and unfazed by wealth or the possibility of it's loss.

Then you have the others, acquisitive alone, and alone bastards.

To quote from JP Sartre, and apologies for a repeat of a post of mine on Bob Ellis' blog.



> “There are two types of poor people, those who are poor together and those who are poor alone.




gg


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## Julia (24 December 2012)

tech/a said:


> Yes all of including 15
> But I also agree strongly with WAZA on luck.
> Not TGA all rich people become rich due to luck
> But they recognize opportunity which when acted
> ...



This is an important distinction.  People destined to do well financially (I'm not sure about the term "rich people") will seek out opportunities and act on them.  Those destined to be left behind will stick with what they know, always being afraid to venture beyond their comfort zone.

This from the list:


> 10. Rich people live below their means
> It seems contradictory to the above statement but rich people adopt the attitude of getting rich so you can afford to live below your means. Average people live beyond their means.



I've seen this to be true so often.  Genuinely well off people feel no obligation to flaunt their wealth, often living quite modest lifestyles.  

Interesting set of parameters, Tyler.  Thank you.


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## TikoMike (24 December 2012)

Julia said:


> This is an important distinction.  People destined to do well financially (I'm not sure about the term "rich people") will seek out opportunities and act on them.  Those destined to be left behind will stick with what they know, always being afraid to venture beyond their comfort zone.
> 
> This from the list:
> 
> ...




Sticking to what you know is not always a bad thing. A wise investor once advised that one of the keys to success is to stay within your circle of competence when making investing decisions or even decisions outside of investing.


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## Julia (24 December 2012)

It's probably a statement that's subject to wide interpretation.
I remember when I was buying my first IP my mother warned me that I'd get into trouble because I'd never done it before and neither had she before me.  She vowed I'd be better to just stick money in the bank.

I doubt too many of us here would go along with that advice.  But she was sticking within what she knew.
Those IPs went on to close to double in price in a short time, had a constant list of waiting tenants and provided ever increasing rents to offset the high mortage rates of the time.

Heavens, if we all stuck with what we'd already experienced and proved ourselves to be competent at, we'd never advance at all.


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## TikoMike (25 December 2012)

Julia said:


> It's probably a statement that's subject to wide interpretation.
> I remember when I was buying my first IP my mother warned me that I'd get into trouble because I'd never done it before and neither had she before me.  She vowed I'd be better to just stick money in the bank.
> 
> I doubt too many of us here would go along with that advice.  But she was sticking within what she knew.
> ...




Maybe I misunderstood your post. I was thinking you meant that people should take action outside of what they know or their comfort zone. I originally disagreed as I've seen and read enough where a lot of people have lost a lot of money this way.

Perhaps you are saying that average people limit their knowledge and should learn - via research and experience - to go beyond that current knowledge? eg where your mother should have researched a little more about IPs before giving that warning or alternatively not give one at all. If that's the case then I agree.


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 December 2012)

I would ask you all "potential rich people" to consider how resilient rich people cope with poverty, and rise out of that or recover from it..

It is easy to be rich.

This is becoming a Tony Robbins thread.

Think outside the box.

gg


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## burglar (25 December 2012)

Julia said:


> ... But she was sticking within what she knew. ...




I believe a circle of competence is different to a circle of experience.


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## McLovin (25 December 2012)

16. Rich people don't read lists about what other rich people do...

17. Rich people don't take advice from news.com.au...


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## cynic (25 December 2012)

18. Poor people don't either!


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## McLovin (25 December 2012)

cynic said:


> 18. Poor people don't either!




18b. They are more likely to though.


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## cynic (25 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> 18b. They are more likely to though.




18c. But only on their way to becoming richer.


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## McLovin (25 December 2012)

cynic said:


> 18c. But only on their way to becoming richer.




18d. That's the theory at least. 

That being said, the list is ridiculously general and/or commonsense..."rich people aim high"..."rich people dream of the future"..."poor people aim low"..."poor people dwell on the past"...

The poor are only poor because they want to be etc.

Did the Summer intern write this rubbish?

Although, it could also have been one of those "motivational" speakers.


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## cynic (25 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> 18d. That's the theory at least.
> 
> That being said, the list is ridiculously general..."rich people aim high"..."rich people dream of the future"..."poor people aim low"..."poor people dwell on the past"...
> 
> ...




Well then, this thread represents an excellent opportunity for your further augmentation of this "ridiculously general" list and also rectification of any perceived omissions and/or errors.

I look forward to opining on your further input.


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## McLovin (25 December 2012)

cynic said:


> Well then, this thread represents an excellent opportunity for your further augmentation of this "ridiculously general" list and also rectification of any perceived omissions and/or errors.
> 
> I look forward to opining on your further input.




19. Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue.


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## cynic (25 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> 19. Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue.




No problems, Mclovin. I'll be certain to include you in my prayers.


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## Tink (25 December 2012)

LOL cynic - love it  
Disagree McLovin, that belongs in the drunk thread.

Merry Christmas.


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## tech/a (25 December 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I would ask you all "potential rich people" to consider how resilient rich people cope with poverty, and rise out of that or recover from it..
> 
> It is easy to be rich.
> 
> ...




Merry Xmas.

Many wealthy have been to poverty.
Infact at times it's a fine line between wealth
And poverty.

Mate of mine had a subdivision which if sold represented $10 mill profit.
He was well sought after on the " Financial circuit "
Sales stalled and his cash flow couldn't match his loan repayments.
After 18 mths bankruptcy.
Now is Mark ---- who ----- name changed as some here may know the guy.

Had it come off he would e out there as Mr mega successful.
But timing killed the property star!

But I'm sure he'll be back.


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## Tyler Durden (25 December 2012)

cynic said:


> When I read your posts Tyler, I get the sense that our ideas on wealth accumulation/generation are very similar.
> 
> Item 15 is the only item with which I find myself in significant disagreement, so I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on it.




The only part about 15 I disagree with is that average people try to live frugally. I think it's quite the opposite - average people tend to live beyond their means whilst rich people try to save every cent possible. What do you think?

I remember a friend telling me his wife had just started work at an investment bank, and at the end of the week they all went out for drinks to welcome her. When the bill came, they all walked away, leaving her to pay it.


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## prawn_86 (25 December 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> I remember a friend telling me his wife had just started work at an investment bank, and at the end of the week they all went out for drinks to welcome her. When the bill came, they all walked away, leaving her to pay it.




Depends on the situation. I work in finance and there are certain times when people earning a lot less are expected to buy the drinks. Think of it as an initiation of sorts


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## cynic (25 December 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> The only part about 15 I disagree with is that average people try to live frugally. I think it's quite the opposite - average people tend to live beyond their means whilst rich people try to save every cent possible. What do you think?
> 
> I remember a friend telling me his wife had just started work at an investment bank, and at the end of the week they all went out for drinks to welcome her. When the bill came, they all walked away, leaving her to pay it.




Yes. My thoughts are quite similar. I've often heard people claim that they would start saving money if only they earnt a higher wage. The reality was that despite numerous pay rises over the years, these same people continued to try and "live the champagne lifestyle on the beer budget". Their spending always inflated to match (and at times exceed) any increase in their earnings. It was only when circumstances arose leaving no viable alternative (credit limit exceeded, job loss etc.) that frugality was practised by these individuals.

On the other hand, I would agree that those whom become compulsive (rather than passionate) about saving money generally miss the point of balance between living frugally and living miserly. Looking after the pennies may result in the pounds looking after themselves, but one must take care not to become penny wise and pound foolish.

I would agree that availing oneself of opportunities to maximise the returns on one's resources (including available time and labour) is highly recommended, however, the wealthiest people I've met, were more entrepreneurial and seemed largely disinterested in seeking pay rises/promotions. I believe that they recognised that their efforts could achieve greater returns elsewhere.

@Tech/a, firstly thanks for noting your agreeance with 15.  Given your indisputable accomplishments in matters pertaining to wealth and its acquisition, I'd love to know your thoughts (but please make sure you type slowly for me as I'm still very much a "wannabe")


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## McLovin (25 December 2012)

cynic]No problems said:


> The only part about 15 I disagree with is that average people try to live frugally. I think it's quite the opposite - average people tend to live beyond their means whilst rich people try to save every cent possible. What do you think?




I disagree. Some do, some don't. My cousin is a great case in point. He does pretty well for himself, he grew up poor. He has a successful business but he spends all he makes. Last count he had a helicopter and two private jets. He also has one client. If they go elsewhere he's pretty much screwed. He's always lived a seat of the pants kind of lifestyle. He'll either die very rich or penniless. That's why I think these generalisations are silly.


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## pavilion103 (25 December 2012)

Number 1 that selfishness is a virtue is rubbish. Generosity is one if the most attractive and respected qualities anyone can possess.

I agree though that in order to have the impact that we can truly have we need to put ourself in the position to do so. But I have zero respect for someone who leaves a stack of money to some organization in their will, giving little their whole life. It counts for absolutely zero. Generosity is an attitude and habit at all stages of life. No need to give above your means though. 

I want character AND money but I'd never want money without character.


The others I really like. Very good article IMO.


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## Julia (25 December 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> Number 1 that selfishness is a virtue is rubbish. Generosity is one if the most attractive and respected qualities anyone can possess.
> 
> I agree though that in order to have the impact that we can truly have we need to put ourself in the position to do so. But I have zero respect for someone who leaves a stack of money to some organization in their will, giving little their whole life. It counts for absolutely zero. Generosity is an attitude and habit at all stages of life. No need to give above your means though.
> 
> I want character AND money but I'd never want money without character.



Good post, pavilion.  I agree, and not just financial generosity, but generosity of spirit, something that seems to be sadly diminished these days.


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## Tyler Durden (25 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> I disagree. Some do, some don't. My cousin is a great case in point. He does pretty well for himself, he grew up poor. He has a successful business but he spends all he makes. Last count he had a helicopter and two private jets. He also has one client. If they go elsewhere he's pretty much screwed. He's always lived a seat of the pants kind of lifestyle. He'll either die very rich or penniless. That's why I think these generalisations are silly.




I think those types of examples are exceptions, but of course these are generalisations, which apply to a lot of cases, just not the exception you've described.


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## McLovin (25 December 2012)

Tyler Durden said:


> I think those types of examples are exceptions, but of course these are generalisations, which apply to a lot of cases, just not the exception you've described.




I can give you plenty more examples of the same. Almost all my friends are from "rich" families,, not through a conscious decision on my part just through where I grew up, I guess you could add my own family to that descriptor. Some of them spend big on flashy bits and pieces others drive bottom of the range Japanese cars. It depends on the person. My Mum drives a Toyota Corola, because she doesn't care about cars or status symbols. My aunt, her sister, was the opposite, always had a couple of Range Rovers in the driveway. When I got my license my parents gave my an old Barina that had been a company car, my cousins (different cousins to the one mentioned above) got BMW 318i's.

Luck plays a much larger part in becoming rich than the average person thinks. If I were graduating from uni now and going into finance there's no way I would have made the money I did through the last decade. 

Anyway, that's my take on these sort of lists.


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## notting (25 December 2012)

The game never stops.

Some will go from high to low.
Others from low to high.
Then around and around again.

With every step
A generous spirit will be met
With golden stones 
That pave the way.

In that investment
There  is a sure thing.
May I ever know
100% trust in that.

I have seen the light!!!
Hail Mary, Praise the Lord Jesus. Alelulia.
Oh look, it's way past time for my medication. 
Will someone please turn those f√ ¢k ¡Δg Christmas carols off!


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## banco (25 December 2012)

prawn_86 said:


> Depends on the situation. I work in finance and there are certain times when people earning a lot less are expected to buy the drinks. Think of it as an initiation of sorts




Think I saw this on the sopranos when Christopher became a made man. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avSfq9_mEis


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## Julia (25 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> My aunt, her sister, was the opposite, always had a couple of Range Rovers in the driveway.



Why did she need 'a couple' of Range Rovers?
Sounds like pure ostentation to me.

People who need what they believe are status symbols or who constantly namedrop about how rich they are, and  what wealthy backgrounds they have, come across to me as a bit personally/emotionally insecure.
All the really wealthy people (as distinct from the nouveau riche) feel no need to flaunt it.


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## McLovin (25 December 2012)

Julia said:


> Why did she need 'a couple' of Range Rovers?
> Sounds like pure ostentation to me.




His and hers. 

I don't lose sleep over how someone spends their money, I was just highlighting that it's a myth that the rich are frugal. And that's not just the nouveau riche.


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## Bill M (26 December 2012)

I read some where that wealthy people always know how much they are worth (asset wise) and how much income they get. Poor people don't really know.


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## cynic (26 December 2012)

In nature there are some creatures that artificially inflate their appearance as a defensive mechanism , and then there are others that simply don't need to!

On a day back in the '80's a neighbour called on my grandparents for assistance in reading some contractual documents.He was an interesting character, he always got around in a pair of grubby old shorts and tank top. He often went fishing in his old wooden boat with outboard motor. Between the fish he caught and the mangoes produced by his tree, he was able to significantly reduce his food bill. He had a gentle disposition and was generous with his mangoes and his boat. At times he lent his boat to the grandchildren of neighbours (including my siblings and cousins). Anyway, on that particular day that he visited with those documents in hand, two things (previously unknown to my grandparents) became apparent. The first was that he was illiterate. The second was that he was a multi-millionaire!


Whilst engaged on a temp assignment at one of the telco's last decade, I worked in an identical role with a number of others. We were being paid $17/hr gross and as it was a casual rate there were no leave entitlements whatsoever. It was hardly an opulent wage, but one that I was appreciative of nonetheless. When one of my fellow temps received some news regarding the sale of an item of recently inherited real estate, I was somewhat surprised. He and his brother had effectively inherited 1.5 Million GBP. When I pointed out to him that his share (i.e. 750K GBP) made him the equivalent of a millionaire in AUD, his reaction made it apparent that he'd already been wealthy before this inheritance. He like myself, were commuting to work via public transport.

It is not a myth! They do exist!  It's just that they're more interested in getting on with their lives than allowing themselves to be held to ransom by public opinion. They're not normally noticed because they're not interested in flaunting it!


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## qldfrog (26 December 2012)

Quite a lot of truth still in these points, I especially agree on the taking the chance: you need luck but you also need  to take it: you start a business, and try again if it fails; you keep an open mind, learn to listen and listen to learn;


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## Gringotts Bank (26 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> I can give you plenty more examples of the same. Almost all my friends are from "rich" families,, not through a conscious decision on my part just through where I grew up, I guess you could add my own family to that descriptor. Some of them spend big on flashy bits and pieces others drive bottom of the range Japanese cars. It depends on the person. My Mum drives a Toyota Corola, because she doesn't care about cars or status symbols. My aunt, her sister, was the opposite, always had a couple of Range Rovers in the driveway. When I got my license my parents gave my an old Barina that had been a company car, my cousins (different cousins to the one mentioned above) got BMW 318i's.
> 
> Luck plays a much larger part in becoming rich than the average person thinks. If I were graduating from uni now and going into finance there's no way I would have made the money I did through the last decade.
> 
> Anyway, that's my take on these sort of lists.




Same view here.

Luck has to be investigated.  What is it?  How does it function?  Does luck have rules?  I'll leave it there.  But you know what I mean.

The summer intern wrote the list... exactly right.


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## Gringotts Bank (26 December 2012)

While it's true that rich people aim high, that doesn't mean that if YOU aim high, that YOU will become rich.

While it's true that rich people dream of the future, that doesn't mean that if YOU dream of the future, that YOU will become rich.

While it's true that rich people use other people's money wisely, that doesn't mean that if YOU use other people's money wisely that YOU will become rich.

And so on...

All the points on the list are correct statements, or close to it.

All the points made give absolutely NO CLUES about how to become rich.

* The list is completely useless because it's an observation of effect, not cause.*  The cause needs to be investigated.  And the cause is hidden from view, _because it always is_.  If it was as simple as following a list, don't you think everyone would have done it by now?

There's similarities in trading advice one reads here.  "Just do this!!" "Know your R:R!!!" say the experts, as if doing those things makes any difference.  The cause is always hidden, and people act as if the effect is appropriate advice to follow.  If the game of trading was like fixing a car, don't you think everyone would be rich by now?  You'd learn how to do it and you'd just damn well do it.  

In social life, people make the same cause-effect error, and it's very obvious in young people.  Young guys see someone having success with women, and they immediately start to mirror the successful person's *effects*.  "If I dress the way he does, if I talk like he does, if I walk the way he does, if I join the football team that he is in, then maybe i will have the same success".  They do this because they can't see the cause.  Then one day the successful guy will suddenly change the way he dresses, and maybe even leaves the football team - but lo and behold, he is still successful with women, *while his followers are TOTALLY LOST because they mistook cause for effect.*  So whom are YOU following like a sheep???  What will you do when he suddenly changes his approach?  

Can you see the similarity with trying to mimic successful traders?  You can't just do what they do and hope to be successful.  It will not happen.  Success is possible however, just not this way.


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## burglar (26 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> ...  Success is possible however, just not this way.




Walk this way, talk this way!!!


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 December 2012)

Some rich and poor I know are poor, and some rich and poor I know are rich.

gg


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## Julia (26 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> While it's true that rich people aim high, that doesn't mean that if YOU aim high, that YOU will become rich.
> 
> While it's true that rich people dream of the future, that doesn't mean that if YOU dream of the future, that YOU will become rich.
> 
> ...



Interesting, GB.  So how do we discover the cause?

Are some of us genetically disposed toward recognising opportunities and taking them?
Is it something we can develop?
How relevant is our early upbringing, place of education, peer values etc?

I believe much of the population never gives any of this a thought.  The notion that their lives could be other than a daily grind of working in some job they largely dislike, or at the extreme, even the notion that there is a life outside of welfare, doesn't occur to them.

So do we have simple lack of aspiration as a fundamental factor?


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## ROE (26 December 2012)

The best way for most people to get rich is spend less than you earn and invest wisely
and let compounding becomes your friend...

that is something everyone can do without having big business ideas or risk everything, not everyone is cut out
to run business or have great ideas...those who can capitalise on opportunities and business idea good for them 
they deserve it and go on to create more jobs for other people in society.  

but for most if you got a job you like and you happy with your life style and you can stack a bit of cash away every month that is a rich life...why think differently or copy other people thinking when you happy with what you got


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## Mrmagoo (26 December 2012)

Most rich people bought property before about 2004 and that is what makes them rich.

Enough said.


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## tech/a (26 December 2012)

Mrmagoo said:


> Most rich people bought property before about 2004 and that is what makes them rich.
> 
> Enough said.




Some sure.


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## cynic (26 December 2012)

cynic said:


> @Tech/a, firstly thanks for noting your agreeance with 15.  Given your indisputable accomplishments in matters pertaining to wealth and its acquisition, I'd love to know your thoughts (but please make sure you type slowly for me as I'm still very much a "wannabe")




I realise that I did ask you to type slowly Tech/a, but maybe just a little faster than that would be okay as the suspenseful wait for your response is killing me!


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## tech/a (26 December 2012)

cynic said:


> I realise that I did ask you to type slowly Tech/a, but maybe just a little faster than that would be okay as the suspenseful wait for your response is killing me!




Sorry missed it.

I really believe that for most it's a matter of 
Placing yourself in front of your perceived opportunity
As often as you see it.

When you know it's a no brainer put the damned house on it.

[ as an example in 1996 ANYONE could buy a 3 bed home at 20 % down and rent it for a profit
Over and above the interest being paid. The huge in balance lasted far longer than it should as 
Prices needed to re balance and they actually over balanced.
Then with the gulf war Gold was way out of balanced at around $350 an ounce-- it has re balanced ]

If your 20 you'll see around 20 of these no brainers in a lifetime.
Even if you don't get the full ride 

*You only need 1 to change your life.*

Learn all you can about risk and how to manage it.

You can have everyone of the 15 attributes but if you do nothing
That's the result you'll get!!

Call it luck as a lot of my friends do or call it the ability to take advantage of opportunity.
*Go where the money is and go there often!*


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## cynic (26 December 2012)

tech/a said:


> Sorry missed it.
> 
> I really believe that for most it's a matter of
> Placing yourself in front of your perceived opportunity
> ...




Thanks for that Tech/a. I'm particularly glad that you've taken an interest in this thread as your opinions combined with your accomplishments lend validity to many of the assertions being made by the OP.

P.S. Also glad that you'd genuinely overlooked my original request as I was becoming worried that I might have graduated to your ignore list.


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## tech/a (26 December 2012)

Ignore the Cynic!

NEVER


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## Gringotts Bank (26 December 2012)

Julia said:


> Interesting, GB.  So how do we discover the cause?
> 
> Are some of us genetically disposed toward recognising opportunities and taking them?
> Is it something we can develop?
> ...




The cause is genetics and upbringing (learned factors).

Genetics might be altered to some small degree with a lot of effort.  Genetic markers for 'sensitivity' and anxiety would be reliable factors in the causation of failure.  And the same is true for all those negative values and beliefs you learned as a kid and took as gospel.  Beliefs and values are extremely hard to change, because any attempt to do so will bring you face to face with deep identity fears.  Ask a hard core Muslim to "just relax and forget about praying for one day".  Even if our Muslim friend wants to have a more peaceful life, there's just too much fear.  Eternity is hell - **** if I believed that, I'd be praying 100 times a day.  Westerners mock their ridiculous ways (see religion thread), and yet everyone has fears that need to be faced.  Our fears are just different.  Fear has a million faces.  

The less fear, the more success (in general).  The wealthiest people I have met own their own businesses.  But they were able to do that and make it work because - _at cause_- they were relatively fearless and free of guilt.  Such negative emotions tend not to enter their heads.  They just go for it.  But if you tell an anxious, timid person to "just go for it and get that loan, be bold, open that store, buy the stock, market like crazy"......he will lose the lot.  Most small businesses fail as you know.  Small business failure is not about having a useless accountant, and it's not about cash flow issues.... it's about WHO YOU ARE.  The accountant, the cash flow etc. are effects, not causes.

There seem to be quite a lot of very wealthy people who _by and large_ are bold and relaxed and confident in business, but their intense desire and drive for material wealth is a compensation for never feeling loved as a child.  That's _their _particular fear.  If you were to negotiate a deal with them or watch them set up a factory from scratch, you'd marvel at their power, ingenuity and confidence.  But ask them to speak gently and intimately with their children about school, friends, life, and you'd trigger intense fear.  They'd run a mile to avoid it.

So fear is the enemy.  And it has a million faces.


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## burglar (26 December 2012)

tech/a said:


> ... Placing yourself in front of your perceived opportunity ...





Yes. Agree completely!
Old saying, "Opportunity has a slippery tail !"


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## cynic (26 December 2012)

burglar said:


> Yes. Agree completely!
> Old saying, "Opportunity has a slippery tail !"




So do cobras!

But, definitely agree, just the same.


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## Julia (26 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> The less fear, the more success (in general).  The wealthiest people I have met own their own businesses.  But they were able to do that and make it work because - _at cause_- they were relatively fearless and free of guilt.  Such negative emotions tend not to enter their heads.  They just go for it.  But if you tell an anxious, timid person to "just go for it and get that loan, be bold, open that store, buy the stock, market like crazy"......he will lose the lot.  Most small businesses fail as you know.  Small business failure is not about having a useless accountant, and it's not about cash flow issues.... it's about WHO YOU ARE.  The accountant, the cash flow etc. are effects, not causes.



Failure can also be a result of being slapdash, not doing the appropriate due diligence before buying a small business, projecting its future trajectory etc.  So, although I agree with your concept of fearlessness, I think that trait needs to be tempered with common sense and proper investigation.
Plenty of people have failed when they've proceeded on a confident whim.



> There seem to be quite a lot of very wealthy people who _by and large_ are bold and relaxed and confident in business, but their intense desire and drive for material wealth is a compensation for never feeling loved as a child.  That's _their _particular fear.  If you were to negotiate a deal with them or watch them set up a factory from scratch, you'd marvel at their power, ingenuity and confidence.  But ask them to speak gently and intimately with their children about school, friends, life, and you'd trigger intense fear.  They'd run a mile to avoid it.



That seems to be rather a wide generalisation.  I'm reminded of Rupert Murdoch's eulogy at the funeral of the late Dame Elisabeth, where he described the love and acceptance, encouragement, he received in his formative years.

I don't at all hold myself out to be any sort of successful, but I grew up with heaps of encouragement and affection, absolutely tempered with rigid discipline and expectations, and above all the advice that to get anywhere I'd have to take responsibility for my decisions and their outcomes.



> So fear is the enemy.  And it has a million faces.



Agree essentially on this.  There was a great book, probably now entirely passe, called "Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway" many years ago.  The essential message was "give it a go".  That's great advice, but only on the basis that you thoroughly investigate the potential downside of any venture.
Just imo of course.


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## Gringotts Bank (26 December 2012)

Julia said:


> That seems to be rather a wide generalisation.  I'm reminded of Rupert Murdoch's eulogy at the funeral of the late Dame Elisabeth, where he described the love and acceptance, encouragement, he received in his formative years.




A generalization, yes, so it won't apply to everyone.

I've seen success come both ways -  1) by having all the essential personal ingredients and 2) through intense striving, work-through-the-night attitude and by sacrificing everything.  The second way seems to appear in those who fear not being ok in themselves, and the wealth seems to be a bit less stable, like there's enormous effort required just to sustain momentum.  Dame Elizabeth appeared to have a very nice way about her, so one could imagine success might be almost inevitable if one was born into that family.

The fact that wealth runs in families, with very few exceptions, is further proof.

On the other point, how many people can change from being a "slap dash" style of operator into a disciplined and efficient operator?  It's like when Gordon Ramsay goes into a run down restaurant and changes all the protocols, procedures and menus and so on.  While he's there it works just fine - a miracle!!  Fully booked!!!  Even the marketing works.  How long can a slap dash dude keep it up once Ramsay leaves?  He slowly reverts to the old patterns.  That's why Ramsay rarely re-visits those restaurant owners whom he 'helped'.  It doesn't last.  Ramsay is all about effect, not realizing the cause.  Ramsay himself created the success, not the procedures and protocols and menus.


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## McLovin (27 December 2012)

burglar said:


> Yes. Agree completely!
> Old saying, "Opportunity has a slippery tail !"




And that goes back to my point; stating the commonsense.



> Placing yourself in front of your perceived opportunity




Do you really need someone to tell you that's how you make money?

Finding the opportunity is a whole different ballgame. And where most fall down.


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## cynic (27 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> And that goes back to my point; stating the commonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So what do you think it is that stands in the way of most people finding opportunity? 
(Please don't insult my intellect by telling me it's because they spent too much time in church, I've known several high wealth churchgoers in my time.)


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 December 2012)

I insist this is a complete wank of a thread.

I've been poor, and rich then poor and now rich again.

And I do not fear being poor again.

This is a Tony Robbins/Storm Financial thread.

Wake up to yourselves.

It's the Vibe that is more important.

gg


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## tech/a (27 December 2012)

cynic said:


> So what do you think it is that stands in the way of most people finding opportunity?
> (Please don't insult my intellect by telling me it's because they spent too much time in church, I've known several high wealth churchgoers in my time.)




The minister and parish for starters!
Opportunity right there!


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## Smurf1976 (27 December 2012)

cynic said:


> So what do you think it is that stands in the way of most people finding opportunity?



Many people can "see" opportunities in all sorts of things. It's just that most don't do something with them. 

It's like spotting an attractive woman/man by her/him self at the nightclub, pub or wherever. Seeing what's in front of you is the easy bit but it's not going anywhere if you simply ignore her/him. You have to do something, taking a risk in the process, in order to achieve any benefit from the opportunity presented.


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## notting (27 December 2012)

tech/a said:


> The minister and parish for starters!
> Opportunity right there!




Unless of course your running the greatest REIT in the history of the world.


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## DocK (27 December 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Many people can "see" opportunities in all sorts of things. It's just that most don't do something with them.
> 
> It's like spotting an attractive woman/man by her/him self at the nightclub, pub or wherever. Seeing what's in front of you is the easy bit but it's not going anywhere if you simply ignore her/him. You have to do something, taking a risk in the process, in order to achieve any benefit from the opportunity presented.




Good analogy - it comes down to self-belief, confidence, guts, more or less anticipating that taking the risk will pay off, or being prepared to wear a bit of pain and get out fast if it doesn't.  Prior research of great benefit.  Those that suffer from fear of rejection/failure, uncertainty/timidity, lack of confidence  etc will let the opportunity pass them by...

Then there are those that already are content with what they have and simply want to preserve it - ignoring a new "opportunity" may often be the best course to take in that case


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## burglar (27 December 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Many people can "see" opportunities in all sorts of things. It's just that most don't do something with them.
> 
> It's like spotting an attractive woman/man by her/him self at the nightclub, pub or wherever. Seeing what's in front of you is the easy bit but it's not going anywhere if you simply ignore her/him. You have to do something, taking a risk in the process, in order to achieve any benefit from the opportunity presented.




I saw a "great website" as an opportunity as early as 1999.

But just ask Joe if it's as easy as it seems!


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## McLovin (27 December 2012)

cynic said:


> So what do you think it is that stands in the way of most people finding opportunity?
> (Please don't insult my intellect by telling me it's because they spent too much time in church, I've known several high wealth churchgoers in my time.)




That was a joke. It was a quote from Mr Burns when he was telling kids how to become rich.

Most people have neither the interest, motivation or the intelligence. It's the live to work, work to live thing. 

Someone who is determined to become rich will still probably fail, which is where luck comes into it. You need to be born with the right god given talents and in the right country/era etc. The overwhelming majority of people will die in the same social class that they were born into. 

If you measure your life's work by how much money you end up with, you've missed the point, IMO. Rene Rivkin used to say "money doesn't buy happiness, but it buys a better form of unhappiness".



			
				smurf1976 said:
			
		

> Many people can "see" opportunities in all sorts of things. It's just that most don't do something with them.
> 
> It's like spotting an attractive woman/man by her/him self at the nightclub, pub or wherever. Seeing what's in front of you is the easy bit but it's not going anywhere if you simply ignore her/him. You have to do something, taking a risk in the process, in order to achieve any benefit from the opportunity presented.




I agree. I think finding the opportunity though involves more than just identifying it.


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## Gringotts Bank (27 December 2012)

Anyone want to try an experiment?


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## cynic (27 December 2012)

McLovin said:


> That was a joke. It was a quote from Mr Burns when he was telling kids how to become rich...




My sincerest apologies, McLovin. I should have realised from the jovial context of your earlier posts. My bad!


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## cynic (27 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Anyone want to try an experiment?




Does it involve psychedelics or incendiaries?


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## Gringotts Bank (27 December 2012)

cynic said:


> Does it involve psychedelics or incendiaries?




Neither of those.  

Risk taking is great for getting one in the mood to trade well.  Risking embarrassment and humiliation is probably the most powerful way to get amped (without drugs).  Pick a day where you can do your experiment, because the risk-taking and the trading need to be on the same day.  If you risk humiliation and embarrassment and it backfires and you end up humiliated and embarrassed, then forget it!!  However, if you take the risk and come away unscathed, your energy will be at really nice levels.... and here's the kicker....you can trade off that confidence.  Because this is an experiment, don't go betting the house ok?, just a small trade for starters.  Do a few day trades and see how much easier it is to make money.


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## cynic (27 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Neither of those.
> 
> Risk taking is great for getting one in the mood to trade well.  Risking embarrassment and humiliation is probably the most powerful way to get amped (without drugs).  Pick a day where you can do your experiment, because the risk-taking and the trading need to be on the same day.  If you risk humiliation and embarrassment and it backfires and you end up humiliated and embarrassed, then forget it!!  However, if you take the risk and come away unscathed, your energy will be at really nice levels.... and here's the kicker....you can trade off that confidence.  Because this is an experiment, don't go betting the house ok?, just a small trade for starters.  Do a few day trades and see how much easier it is to make money.




As you and I are both already well aware, results can often be a direct manifestation of one's deeper expectations. (i.e. one's entrenched beliefs usually influence the outcome/s!) How do you propose that we counter the skepticism of the willing participants?


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## Gringotts Bank (27 December 2012)

cynic said:


> As you and I are both already well aware, results can often be a direct manifestation of one's deeper expectations. (i.e. one's entrenched beliefs usually influence the outcome/s!) How do you propose that we counter the skepticism of the willing participants?




Just by having a go and seeing what happens.  The reason for choosing a potentially humiliating/embarrassing risk experience is that, aside from death, this is what people fear the most.  You challenge it, you come out the other side, then fear isn't quite as big an issue.  But there is a significant time decay factor, so you need to get trading asap after the risk.  Rinse and repeat.  Easy to say, hard to do.  It's the single best and fastest way to improve your profits with trading.

You don't have to walk down Collins St in a mankini necessarily, but something that really pushes your boundaries.


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## cynic (27 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just by having a go and seeing what happens.  The reason for choosing a potentially humiliating/embarrassing risk experience is that, aside from death, this is what people fear the most.  You challenge it, you come out the other side, then fear isn't quite as big an issue.  But there is a significant time decay factor, so you need to get trading asap after the risk.  Rinse and repeat.  Easy to say, hard to do.  It's the single best and fastest way to improve your profits with trading.
> 
> You don't have to walk down Collins St in a mankini necessarily, but something that really pushes your boundaries.




As you are probably aware, my boundaries are pretty broad, if I were to push them much further I'd more than  likely be institutionalised! 

It's a worthwhile suggestion nonetheless, as it offers a practical method for testing a theory. I remember a friend of mine deciding to pay her first visit to a nudist beach as an exercise in boundary expansion and self empowerment. It was a confronting experience for her, but one that she experienced as extremely liberating.


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## young-gun (27 December 2012)

cynic said:


> results can often be a direct manifestation of one's deeper expectations.




I would replace 'can often be' with ARE. This is the key to it all...imo


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## Julia (27 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Just by having a go and seeing what happens.  The reason for choosing a potentially humiliating/embarrassing risk experience is that, aside from death, this is what people fear the most.  You challenge it, you come out the other side, then fear isn't quite as big an issue.  But there is a significant time decay factor, so you need to get trading asap after the risk.  Rinse and repeat.  Easy to say, hard to do.  It's the single best and fastest way to improve your profits with trading.
> 
> You don't have to walk down Collins St in a mankini necessarily, but something that really pushes your boundaries.



Are you actually asking ASF members to participate in some experiment of your devising?
Not sure you'll get too many takers unless you provide some outline of what you have in mind.


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## cynic (28 December 2012)

young-gun said:


> I would replace 'can often be' with ARE. This is the key to it all...imo




I am inclined to agree, but generally prefer to temper some of my more absolute statements by saying "often" instead of "always" and "many" instead of "all". 
My reason for this is twofold. Some posters will have a strong counter view and be more inclined to dispute absolute statements, and secondly I sometimes happen to get things wrong! (I know it's shocking but it just so happens that it's true!). So by using a softer (rather than absolute) statement I've allowed myself a margin for error.


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## young-gun (28 December 2012)

cynic said:


> I am inclined to agree, but generally prefer to temper some of my more absolute statements by saying "often" instead of "always" and "many" instead of "all".
> My reason for this is twofold. Some posters will have a strong counter view and be more inclined to dispute absolute statements, and secondly I sometimes happen to get things wrong! (I know it's shocking but it just so happens that it's true!). So by using a softer (rather than absolute) statement I've allowed myself a margin for error.




Fair enough. I can't say that I can relate to that, as I have only ever been wrong once in my life, and it was the time that I thought that I was wrong  haha.

But in all seriousness I do believe it is the key to it all.

One book really opened my eyes and it was 'think and grow rich' by napoleon hill, written in the 1930's I believe.


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## Tyler Durden (28 December 2012)

cynic said:


> I am inclined to agree, but generally prefer to temper some of my more absolute statements by saying "often" instead of "always" and "many" instead of "all".
> My reason for this is twofold. Some posters will have a strong counter view and be more inclined to dispute absolute statements, and secondly I sometimes happen to get things wrong! (I know it's shocking but it just so happens that it's true!). So by using a softer (rather than absolute) statement I've allowed myself a margin for error.




I happen to do the same. Sometimes I say "I think" instead of "it is", only because the former sounds more humble.


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## Gringotts Bank (29 December 2012)

Julia said:


> Are you actually asking ASF members to participate in some experiment of your devising?
> Not sure you'll get too many takers unless you provide some outline of what you have in mind.




Julia, you know when you have a near accident, someone will invariably say "you should buy a lottery ticket"?  I subscribe to that general idea.  Personal experience tells me there are times when things are much more likely to go your way.  These times are when your mood and general vibe is pinging nicely.  Surely you've noticed this?

One doesn't necessarily need to risk humiliation - I only mention this because if you want to create an immediate alteration in vibe, that's one 'quick and dirty' way to do it.  Just do it once to give you a taste of how mood affects performance.  Then you will start to open up to new possibilities.

Look at your historical performance.  Get an idea of how much you'd make per month.  If you're all over the shop with performance, this is harder to do, but if there's a big change you still should be able to see it in your journal.  Now do the experiment.  Remember to trade on the same day.  Make a note of the degree of change in your vibe - write it down.  Then next to that, write down the trades.   The trades don't need to be discretionary - just trade the way you normally trade, whether that be system or discretionary.  *Don't change the method - that's really important.*


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## tech/a (29 December 2012)

GB 
Are you seriously suggesting your/my trading will perform better if
My vibe is up beat? Particularly if my vibe is up beat about the
Market/my method/ or my holdings?

Seriously doesnt this just prove that any fool can make money
In a bull market ----- positive Vibe just overflows in these times

Irrational exuberance --------


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## Gringotts Bank (29 December 2012)

tech/a said:


> GB
> Are you seriously suggesting your/my trading will perform better if
> My vibe is up beat? Particularly if my vibe is up beat about the
> Market/my method/ or my holdings?
> ...




Yes I am, and you don't need to risk anything to try it yourself.  You just trade the same way as usual and make a comparison in returns.  I think the hard part is finding some way to powerfully _and reliably_ affect vibe.  

The Anthony Robbins of the world make a living psyching people up, and for the rest of the day the audience at such events feel like supermen (or idiots or both!).  Next day they get up and wonder why they spent $1000 on something that doesn't last.  It does work, but for a very short time, that's all... and you might be able to get that feeling happening yourself, through risk taking or whatever other method you choose.  Just think of it as having your coach rev you up before a grand final.   Coaches wouldn't dream of letting the players go out without prepping their vibe.  Game structure is not discussed at such times.  Game structure = method and is done during the week.  Game day, you get your head right.


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## tech/a (29 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Yes I am, and you don't need to risk anything to try it yourself.  You just trade the same way as usual and make a comparison in returns.  I think the hard part is finding some way to powerfully _and reliably_ affect vibe.
> 
> The Anthony Robbins of the world make a living psyching people up, and for the rest of the day the audience at such events feel like supermen (or idiots or both!).  Next day they get up and wonder why they spent $1000 on something that doesn't last.  It does work, but for a very short time, that's all... and you might be able to get that feeling happening yourself, through risk taking or whatever other method you choose.  Just think of it as having your coach rev you up before a grand final.   Coaches wouldn't dream of letting the players go out without prepping their vibe.  Game structure is not discussed at such times.  Game structure = method and is done during the week.  Game day, you get your head right.




While psyching up for a personal challenge my be beneficial psyching up for something you have no control over
Could be seen as self delusional.


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## burglar (29 December 2012)

cynic said:


> So do cobras!
> 
> But, definitely agree, just the same.






> Horse of Opportunity
> 
> Centuries ago, opportunity was sometimes envisioned as a horse with wings. Not one of those trained horses that kneel down so you can easily get on it; this winged horse was always flying, zipping past. Sometimes it would appear out of nowhere when you most needed it ”” in the middle of a battle, perhaps. But you had to be alert and bold and quick; if you let it slip by, the opportunity to save yourself was gone.
> 
> I read this years ago in a magazine in some waiting room. As I sat in the lobby, I thought about that winged horse. Picture it: The horse approaches; you trot alongside, grab the horse's wing, get a firm grip, and jump on. No sweat. Cowboys do it all the time (except for the wing). But if you don't see it coming, or if you wait too long to decide, the Horse of Opportunity slides swiftly by, and all you can do is grab for its slippery tail.



Find more here:
http://findsuccess.net/marketing.html


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## Julia (29 December 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Julia, you know when you have a near accident, someone will invariably say "you should buy a lottery ticket"?  I subscribe to that general idea.  Personal experience tells me there are times when things are much more likely to go your way.  These times are when your mood and general vibe is pinging nicely.  Surely you've noticed this?



Yes, I do know exactly what you mean.
But I also know that amongst that sense of being empowered it's very easy to feel super human, able to do anything successfully, thus losing the reality of the need for caution.

I'd probably prefer to opt for clear and rational thinking, untainted by any egocentric delusions.


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