# Anzac Day



## Garpal Gumnut (25 April 2007)

Am off to the Dawn Parade.

Lest we forget.

Garpal


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## grumpee boi (25 April 2007)

Good on you.  just got back from the RAR combined service at Enoggera Barracks in Brisbane with my wife, daughters and my dad.  He served in Vietnam in 69 with 9 RAR.  Many of the guys still look pretty good despite it all and it was a great turnout with many different units hosting services all over the barracks.

Hope it always continues.

Adam


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## greggy (25 April 2007)

grumpee boi said:


> Good on you.  just got back from the RAR combined service at Enoggera Barracks in Brisbane with my wife, daughters and my dad.  He served in Vietnam in 69 with 9 RAR.  Many of the guys still look pretty good despite it all and it was a great turnout with many different units hosting services all over the barracks.
> 
> Hope it always continues.
> 
> Adam



Good morning All,

I attended a ANZAC Day Dawn Service at the Shrine of Remembrance here in Melbourne, opposite Vic Barracks.  Another large turn out and still emotional.  I have nothing but the highest respect for those have served our nation. Today I took my 2 yo daughter for the first time.  We had to rug her up a bit though as it was pretty cold.  This is one bloody great country.
 P.S. Please don't forget to buy an ANZAC Badge today if you haven't done so already.


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## noirua (25 April 2007)

A few songs for those of us who are far away from Australia at this time:  

"And the Band played Waltzing Matilda"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYynHmE8b0

"Anzac Day Tribute"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYR8oHPHBZY

"The Last Anzac Tribute"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9A4ARtbmFk&mode=related&search


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## Sean K (25 April 2007)

I'm just back from Dawn Service with 4 CSSB at Broadmeadows and then we marched down Swanston St/St Kilda Rd to the Shrine. Did you see me Greggy??

Great morning.  

Now off to the G to watch the Bombers kick some @rse, and I might have a few beers.


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## rederob (25 April 2007)

Writing in the trenches, [Anzac soldiers sit in their shelters in the trench and write letters home, June? 1915] [picture] [1915]. 1 photograph : gelatin silver ; 5.9 x 8.4 cm. Inside Back Cover of The Great War, 1914-1915 : a collection of photographs taken by Signaller J.P. Campbell whilst on active service with the glorious 3rd Brigade of Light Horse ... [picture] [1915] 

Great old pics at this site:
http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.pic-an23194193


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 April 2007)

rederob said:


> Writing in the trenches, [Anzac soldiers sit in their shelters in the trench and write letters home, June? 1915] [picture] [1915]. 1 photograph : gelatin silver ; 5.9 x 8.4 cm. Inside Back Cover of The Great War, 1914-1915 : a collection of photographs taken by Signaller J.P. Campbell whilst on active service with the glorious 3rd Brigade of Light Horse ... [picture] [1915]
> 
> Great old pics at this site:
> http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.pic-an23194193




Thanks for the site info.

Garpal


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## Sean K (25 April 2008)

Hope everyone back home has a great day and takes some time to remember. 

Times like these I miss home.

All the best,
kennas


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## Sean K (25 April 2008)

This looks like a good watch tonight.



> *Gallipoli*
> Fergus Shiel, Reviewer
> April 24, 2008
> 
> ...



SBS tonight at 7.30pm


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## Aussiejeff (25 April 2008)

"With the going down of the sun, we will remember them..."

ALL of them. Including,

My dear departed grandfather (WW1 - France)
My dear departed father (WW2 - Tobruk, El Alamein, Lae, Finscchafen)
My dear departed father-in-law (WW2 - Tobruk, Greece, Crete, New Guinea) 

I'll never forget.


AJ


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## Sean K (25 April 2008)

The Ode:

*They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.*

The Ode comes from For the Fallen, a poem by the English poet and writer Laurence Binyon and was published in London in The Winnowing Fan: Poems of the Great War in 1914. This verse, which became the Ode for the Returned and Services League, has been used in association with commemoration services in Australia since 1921.


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## Prospector (25 April 2008)

Anzac Day has always been a bittersweet day for us.  My grandfather and his brothers all fought in Villiers Bretonneux  - he was a 17 year old, then after the war worked in the gravesite memorial there, repatriating graves.  He died from war related illnesses before I was born, when he was 50.

And then my father served in the Korean War and he is now also gone from war related illnesses.

But Anzac Day, 25th April, is also my mother's birthday, and today she turns 80!  So her birthday which should be a happy event, has, for all my life, been centered around War, Loss, and death. 

Today the immediate family are going to her lunch, but one of her grandsons (my nephew) will be missing - he is serving in the Navy, as my Dad did.


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## Sean K (25 April 2008)

Prospector said:


> for all my life, been centered around War, Loss, and death.



I agree P that this can be a difficult day, as it should be. I've cried three times already reading some of the old stories of the sacrifice and waste of the previous wars. ANZAC Day isn't a day to celebrate success and glories and that makes it so unique. It's a day to commemorate, and hopefully learn by past mistakes but also the honour, committment and dedication that some have given to our country in the past, like your family. 
Thank you.


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## noirua (25 April 2008)

"Letter from Gallipoli":  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5uFzwzEVhQ&feature=related

ANZAC troops at Gallipoli:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs6O_eIQPBI

ANZAC Legend begins - And the Band played Waltzing Matilda:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYynHmE8b0

Gallipoli Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCP1qNTn4Mc&feature=related
Gallipoli Part 2:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA8JvIpBl7s&feature=related


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## wayneL (25 April 2008)

And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda:


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## wayneL (25 April 2008)

Only Nineteen


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## Pronto (25 April 2008)

Beautiful Autumn day. Back from the march and brekky in the local RSL with youngest son. Focus was on Villers Brettoneux in the address. 

Tim Blair has the following extract from Les Carlyon's book on his website...

'...The way Jimmy Downing, who was a solicitor from Victoria, describes it, he was in the brigade that attacked around Villers-Bretonneux from the north. There was another brigade, an Australian brigade, to the south. And the idea was to sort of envelope Villers-Bretonneux and cut off the Germans there. 

Anyway, the way that Jimmy tells it, once they got going and they actually ran into the Germans, for some reason the Australians just went mad. And they literally yelled and charged. They yelled so loud on Jimmy Downing’s side that the Australians on the other side of Villers-Bretonneux - and it is a fair way away - they could actually hear the yells and they just literally bayoneted every German they could see ... 

These men in Jimmy Downing’s brigade had been at Fromelles and in part it was probably revenge for that. But it was a very bloody encounter and the Australians in fact saved Villers-Bretonneux that night'.

****​As they still say in VB even today, 'N'oublions jamais l'Australie' (Let us never forget Australia).


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## Sean K (25 April 2008)

Thanks for those Wayne.


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## agro (25 April 2008)

anyone else notice this too:

on anzac day it always rains !!! in adelaide anyway,, its always a curse


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## Sean K (25 April 2008)

agro said:


> anyone else notice this too:
> 
> on anzac day it always rains !!! in adelaide anyway,, its always a curse



Maybe just in Adelaide. : 

Was a great day in Melbs last year.

And, it's not raining here in Lima!!!


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## Prospector (25 April 2008)

Kennas, we are going to Vietnam in a month.  Having lived through the Vietnam War (just a baby though) I am finding it interesting that I will be travelling to Hanoi and visiting the war museum (where it is called 'The American War')  Have you travelled to Vietnam?  We are not planning to make it a Vietnam War trip, but having seen my brother's friend conscripted to Vietnam as a kiddie, I am really interested in researching this further.

One thing on my list is a visit to Villiers Bretonneux.  The people of the village love Australians (mighty unusual for the French) and when my mum visited there many moons ago, the Hotel she was staying at discharged her accommodation bill when they found out her father had served there.  The school, which had been decimated by the Germans, was rebuilt by the Victorians after the War.  Which is why there are signs in each classroom which say "we must never forget the Australians"


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 April 2008)

A poem from Wilfred Owen on what is now known as PTSD


Mental Cases

      Who are these? Why sit they here in twilight?
      Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
      Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
      Baring teeth that leer like skulls' tongues wicked?
      Stroke on stroke of pain, -- - but what slow panic,
      Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
      Ever from their hair and through their hand palms
      Misery swelters. Surely we have perished
      Sleeping, and walk hell; but who these hellish?

      -- These are men whose minds the Dead have ravished.
      Memory fingers in their hair of murders,
      Multitudinous murders they once witnessed.
      Wading sloughs of flesh these helpless wander,
      Treading blood from lungs that had loved laughter.
      Always they must see these things and hear them,
      Batter of guns and shatter of flying muscles,
      Carnage incomparable and human squander
      Rucked too thick for these men's extrication.

      Therefore still their eyeballs shrink tormented
      Back into their brains, because on their sense
      Sunlight seems a bloodsmear; night comes blood-black;
      Dawn breaks open like a wound that bleeds afresh
      -- Thus their heads wear this hilarious, hideous,
      Awful falseness of set-smiling corpses.
      -- Thus their hands are plucking at each other;
      Picking at the rope-knouts of their scourging;
      Snatching after us who smote them, brother,
      Pawing us who dealt them war and madness.


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## Sean K (25 April 2008)

P, never been to France unfortunately. Was on the list on the world trip itinerary, but unfortunately, I met my (now) wife who distracted me...lol.  Will be there one day!!! Probably end of next year. Yes, been through Vietnam, but only a limited visit. Didn't see all I wanted and must be back. I didn't miss Gallipoli on my round the world trip though, and it was great. Especially when you have a Turkish person telling you how significant it was.


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## wabbit (25 April 2008)

A day of mixed feelings...

It starts when the alarm goes off early in the morning.  I get up, have a shower and shave, put on something warm because its going to be a bit chilly in Kings Park (Perth, WA), have a cup of coffee and head off to Dawn Service, where you gaze through the early morning to the hills behind Perth awaiting the sunrise...

Meanwhile I think what it must have been like on the troop ships 93 years ago... the men (boys) getting an early shake, without the pleasures of a hot shower, some of them not old enough to shave, already dressed in their fatigues, with no hot cuppa; standing on the decks looking towards the coast knowing they are not going to stand on a hill waiting for the sun, but storm up a heavily defended cliff...

It's a reflective day.

It rains sometimes in the morning on ANZAC Day and it can be a tad on the chilly side, but getting a little cold and wet isn't too much of a price to pay in my book. Imagine how wet the troops got going ashore in their little boats?  (BTW: today was dry in Perth.)  At least people aren't shooting at me, so every year, rain or fine, I go stand on a hill and remember the fallen and those still standing...

I think of my mates now, getting up in Afghanistan and Iraq and making preparing to go on their patrols; mates at sea in the Gulf (and other places). No public holiday for them today and no boozing it up their oppos, with the added "bonus" that today someone might shoot at them, again.  (I think of them every day.)

It's a nervous day.

In my past, I have had to make preparations to go into "dangerous places".  At the time you just do it, because it's what needs doing.  It's not until afterwards that you have time to think about it.  I remember now the times when everyday I was surrounded by extraordinary people doing extraordinary things in an extraordinary environment.  We did it everyday so we thought it ordinary ourselves; but now that you look back at it...

I am thankful that during my service, I was never required to enter open conflict.  I once had the warrior ethos (do you ever lose it?) and was prepared to do whatever I needed to, but was never "unleashed".  I think about it more now than it ever did, and today of all days, I think about how I would react if ever I was called to "knock on the wood".

It's a scary day.

We see the national pride that flows around the streets and across the media on Anzac Day.  On this one day each year we pull out the reserved words like "service", "mateship", "courage" and "spirit" and remember what these things mean.  Unfortunately, tomorrow is just another day and these ideals will be boxed up, put away and forgotten until ready to be pulled out again next year.

This morning there were many young people at the Service.  Some of them wore their relatives' medals, some of them may not have had serving relatives but turned out anyway to pay their respects.  They learn *about* the history in school and with any luck, they will learn the lessons *from* history for when they are the leaders of our society; not just for that one day each year but for every day.

It's a hopeful day.

So at this time on this hopeful, scary, nervous, melancholy, thought-provoking day of remembrance, pride, celebration and reflection, it's time to enjoy the freedoms of our society that so many have fought for and continue to fight for; it's beer o'clock!  Cheers.

Lest we forget.



wabbit


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## 2020hindsight (26 April 2008)

I think one of the commercial news channels just claimed their footage was from the first (?) Anzac Day Dawn service in Villers-Bretonneux  -  Yet Wiki would suggest it has been happening for a long time ...

"The annual ANZAC Day ceremony is held at this village on the weekend nearest the 25th April." 

N'oublions jamais l'Australie" (Never forget Australia). 

I thought I heard a report that (the second day of the battle, i.e. 25 April 1918) the Aussies (who well knew the heroism of the original Anzac Cove landing) went over the edge to cheers of ..

*"hey fellas - let's get em !  - it's ANZAC DAY!"*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villers-Bretonneux


> In the First World War, on 24 April 1918, the village of Villers-Bretonneux was the site of the world's first battle between two tank forces: three British Mark IVs against three German A7Vs. Neither side won, but the next day the village was liberated by ANZAC troops at a cost of over twelve hundred Australian lives. *The people of Villers-Bretonneux remain indebted to Australia for this feat. The town's mayor spoke of the Australian troops in 14 July 1919 when unveiling a memorial in their honour:*
> 
> *"The first inhabitants of Villers-Bretonneux to re-establish themselves in the ruins of what was once a flourishing little town have, by means of donations, shown a desire to thank the valorous Australian Armies, who with the spontaneous enthusiasm and characteristic dash of their race, in a few hours chased an enemy ten times their number...*
> 
> ...






wabbit said:


> A day of mixed feelings...
> 
> It's a reflective day.
> 
> ...



top post wabbit


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## 2020hindsight (26 April 2008)

Indeed it was the first Dawn Service at the site apparently....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/25/2227647.htm


> First dawn service held for troops slain in France
> Posted Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:20pm AEST
> Updated Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:19pm AEST
> A dawn service has been held at the Australian War Memorial in the French town of Villers-Bretonneux to mark the 90th anniversary of an important World War I battle involving Australian troops.
> ...


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## Julia (26 April 2008)

Wabbit:  thank you for a thoughtful and touching post.  Much appreciated.


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## numbercruncher (26 April 2008)

All of my forebears served in the great Wars, thought I would share the brief tale of one from my mothers side.


Albert Thomas Courtenay Henery enlisted 5.1.1917 after 3 months he boarded a troopship with his comrades to fight for King and country in the Great War.

He was assigned to the 2nd Battalion Canterbury Regiment of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force.

By August 1917 Albert had found himself " In the Field " with 2nd Battalion in Belgium.

October 1917 Private Henery is listed as Killed in Action.

Uncle Albert's final resting place is Tyne Cot memorial , Belgium, he was 17 years old at time of death, a Child soldier.

The following picture is his death plague which as family historian I am entrusted with, the Families of killed in action servicemen all received these during WW1.




* He Died for Freedom and Honour *






> In Memory of
> Private ALBERT THOMAS COURTENAY HENERY
> 
> 43976, 2nd Bn., Canterbury Regiment, N.Z.E.F.
> ...




They say a whole Generation of Australians and New Zealanders went away to WW1 believing they were British, they also say that those that returned all KNEW they were Aussies and Kiwis.


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## numbercruncher (27 April 2008)

Worth adding that good ole Uncle Albert gave his young life during the Battle of Passchendaele ( also known as the Third Battle of Ypres )

The day Albert paid the ultimate sacrifice 12,000 of his mates joined him.

By the time the Allies had captured Passchendaele they had lost 448 thousand lives and the Germans had lost 260 thousand. The battle was pretty much a stalemate they say. 

The following is a picture of Passchendaele village before and after the battle, its really quite unbelievable, everything was pulverised.






> I fell in a trench. There was a fella there. He must have been about our age. He was ripped shoulder to waist with shrapnel. I held his hand for the last 60 seconds of his life. He only said one word: 'Mother'. I didn't see her, but she was there. No doubt about it. He passed from this life into the next, and it felt as if I was in God's presence. I've never got over it. You never forget it. Never.
> 
> —Harry Patch, last living survivor of Passchendaele, 12/07/2007


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## noirua (27 April 2008)

Australian National Archives - Boer War to Vietnam:  http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/conflicts.aspx


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## Sean K (27 April 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> All of my forebears served in the great Wars, thought I would share the brief tale of one from my mothers side.



 Thanks numbercruncher. Great to hear some personal stories.


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## Sean K (27 April 2008)

Us Australians should not forget that ANZAC includes out friends on the east island. The NZ bit, is of course, New Zealand. 

Having served in war with New Zealanders, travelled with them, and visited their country, and understood their level of participation in our battles, I can not tell you how much respect and admiration I have for our friends who have stood by us, and us with them, for so long.

Love you Kiwis!!! 



> *NZ soldier joins ANZAC Bridge 'mate' *
> April 27, 2008
> 
> NEW Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark and New South Wales Premier Morris Iemma have dedicated a statue of a New Zealand soldier on Sydney's Anzac Bridge, at a ceremony attended by Australian and New Zealand war veterans.


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## Buster (27 April 2008)

Hey Wabbit,



wabbit said:


> I think of my mates now, getting up in Afghanistan and Iraq and making preparing to go on their patrols; mates at sea in the Gulf (and other places). No public holiday for them today and no boozing it up their oppos, with the added "bonus" that today someone might shoot at them, again.  (I think of them every day.)
> 
> In my past, I have had to make preparations to go into "dangerous places".  At the time you just do it, because it's what needs doing.  It's not until afterwards that you have time to think about it.  I remember now the times when everyday I was surrounded by extraordinary people doing extraordinary things in an extraordinary environment.  We did it everyday so we thought it ordinary ourselves; but now that you look back at it...




Nice post.. It's funny you know, you hit the nail on the head.. You just seem to take everyone and everything that goes on around you for granted, just the norm.. It's not for some time after do you realise that it was anything but..

Great post in fact..

Cheers,

Buster


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## 2020hindsight (27 April 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> A poem from Wilfred Owen on what is now known as PTSD
> 
> Treading blood from lungs that had loved laughter.
> Always they must see these things and hear them,
> Batter of guns and shatter of flying muscles,...      .




A couple of poems from poetry thread ...
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=83551&highlight=mustard#post83551


CJ Dennis :-

We 'ear a lot about reward;
We praise, an' sling the cheers about;
But there was debts we can't repay
Piled up on us one single day --
When that first list come out.
There ain't no way to pay that debt.
Do wot we can - there's somethin' yet


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## Spanning Tree (28 April 2008)

It's one thing to revere these soldiers but it's another thing to understand what they fought for. I believe during the World Wars the Australian soldiers fought against fascism and Nazism. They fought for individual freedom. I can't imagine what kind of world we'd be living in if the Nazis won.


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## Sean K (28 April 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> I can't imagine what kind of world we'd be living in if the Nazis won.



America.


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## Djayness (28 April 2008)

Yeah my ANZAC day consisted of hearing jets go by and watching nat geo showing all the stories about it.


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## noirua (29 April 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> It's one thing to revere these soldiers but it's another thing to understand what they fought for. I believe during the World Wars the Australian soldiers fought against fascism and Nazism. They fought for individual freedom. I can't imagine what kind of world we'd be living in if the Nazis won.



Australia would now be a backyard of Japan, Turkey, Germany and Italy. A nuclear test site where the British left off, with all the coal, iron ore etc', ripped out.


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## hebrides (29 April 2008)

Me? an ex serviceman. Like many of my cohorts I have never been to an Anzac day ceremony and never will. War is best remembered as total folly instigated by those who are well past fighting age. 

It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can conjure up visions of noble acts and willing self sacrifice when the reality is young person (friend or foe) lying in his own gore screaming (usually for his mother) while his life ebbs away.


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## Sean K (29 April 2008)

hebrides said:


> Me? an ex serviceman. Like many of my cohorts I have never been to an Anzac day ceremony and never will. War is best remembered as total folly instigated by those who are well past fighting age.
> 
> It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can conjure up visions of noble acts and willing self sacrifice when the reality is young person (friend or foe) lying in his own gore screaming (usually for his mother) while his life ebbs away.



How do you propose we be reminded of the contribution that young person made? At the behest of his government, and country (including you), he's gone off to war to _defend_ his country. Never mind the details, that is it. Odd sentiment from an ex serviceman, but I don't think it's the norm.


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## noirua (29 April 2008)

hebrides said:


> Me? an ex serviceman. Like many of my cohorts I have never been to an Anzac day ceremony and never will. War is best remembered as total folly instigated by those who are well past fighting age.
> 
> It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can conjure up visions of noble acts and willing self sacrifice when the reality is young person (friend or foe) lying in his own gore screaming (usually for his mother) while his life ebbs away.



There comes the time when very few are left, and you have to represent all those who have fallen, whatever your personal views.
A Canadian, who was the last survivor of the Boar War new this.  If I don't go, there's no one left to take my place, he was then 111 years old.


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## robert toms (29 April 2008)

The people that I know that have served in actual war events,do not want to be reminded of it.Without exception they do not speak of their experiences and only attest to the folly of war.
This Gallipolli journey seems to have become a cult event .You had to be there!
As Hebrides said the old men start the wars and the young men fight them.
They do this for a variety of reasons,young,adventurous and reckless rate very highly.
Australia has only been threatened once and that was by the Japanese in WW2.
However ,as the Japanese war histories show,there were never any plans to invade Australia.
Their two main objectives were the metals in Manchuria and the oil in Indonesia.Any thrust toward Australia and bombing of Darwin were ,I assume,to keep enemies from striking distance of their oil.
I have got war  relics from my uncle  buried,along with his faithful dog,on my property.
Injuries and resulting bad medical treatment ruined his life...I think that he marched once on Anzac day.


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## Prospector (29 April 2008)

robert toms said:


> The people that I know that have served in actual war events,do not want to be reminded of it.Without exception they do not speak of their experiences and only attest to the folly of war.
> 
> Injuries and resulting bad medical treatment ruined his life...I think that he marched once on Anzac day.




Yes, I agree with that.  My grandfather refused to apply for his war service medals; he said that if he had to apply for them then they weren't worth it (not sure if you still have to do this, I am talking many years ago now.)  My mother said when he returned from WWI he wouldn't even set a mouse trap because he had already seen too much killing.  He never marched either.  Nor did my Dad.

My Grandfather suffered from being in the trenches and returned to Australia with a much weakened heart.  But the Government wouldn't even acknowledge that his illnesses were a result of war service.  As I posted earlier, he died of a heart condition in his early fifties - no other member of my family (on that side) has heart problems.

When I see the publicity that even 1 death of a soldier receives now, I don't think the media could have 'survived' the deaths experienced during the Great Wars.  None of those soldiers received anything like the offer of a state funeral, nor a PM condolence speech like they get now.


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## wayneL (29 April 2008)

Prospector said:


> Yes, I agree with that.  My grandfather refused to apply for his war service medals; he said that if he had to apply for them then they weren't worth it (not sure if you still have to do this, I am talking many years ago now.)  My mother said when he returned from WWI he wouldn't even set a mouse trap because he had already seen too much killing.  He never marched either.  Nor did my Dad.
> 
> My Grandfather suffered from being in the trenches and returned to Australia with a much weakened heart.  But the Government wouldn't even acknowledge that his illnesses were a result of war service.  As I posted earlier, he died of a heart condition in his early fifties - no other member of my family (on that side) has heart problems.
> 
> When I see the publicity that even 1 death of a soldier receives now, I don't think the media could have 'survived' the deaths experienced during the Great Wars.  None of those soldiers received anything like the offer of a state funeral, nor a PM condolence speech like they get now.



My old man avoided anything to do with the war like the plague as well.

I suppose it all depends on the person's dominant thought. My Dad only saw the folly of old men, the horror he had to endure, and the inconsiderate treatments of ex-servicemen when it was all over ... got his medals but then chucked them into the North Atlantic. He would never talk about, and he felt betrayed. He just wanted to block it all out.

Other people see the war through the contribution they and their mates made together, a bond that will never be broken and #### the governments that started it.

I look at it as a way to honour the people in circumstances they could not control and #### whatever the reasons unstable old men used to justify it and in no way a glorification of war... quite the opposite.


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## Julia (29 April 2008)

Robert, Prospector and Wayne:  thank you for providing some balance against the increasing romanticisation of war.  Every Anzac Day when we see so many young people weeping at Gallipoli I wonder just what is going on in their heads.

This following observation from Crikey might be out of place on this thread.
Hope it doesn't seem insensitive.  I think it's relevant.




> 4 . There's no Anzac in Afghanistan
> Jeff Sparrow writes:
> 
> Terrorism expert Clive Williams recently provided a helpful insight into the Pashtun devil-children we face in Afghanistan:
> ...


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## Buster (30 April 2008)

G'Day Julia, 



Julia said:


> thank you for providing some balance against the increasing romanticisation of war.




Is that what’s occurring here?? I thought there was simply some support for those that don the uniform..  Romanticisation of War?? Are you kidding me?? I doubt you'll find many that join the service to 'get amongst it'.. 

Obviously I cannot comment on the events that took place before my lifetime, however, there has been some 'discussion' about the role of the services in recent times, particularly IRAQ.. I may be able to share an observation..

The young girls and guys that join the military today certainly don't expect to find themselves covered in blood and guts on the battlefield, I mean honestly, who would join if they REALLY expected to be part of that.. No they join to 'do the right thing' and to 'help others that cannot help themselves'.. maybe it sounds corny to you, but in it's simplest form it's to protect others from the 'bullies' of the world..

Yes, sometimes you find yourself caught up in a situation that you didn't expect to occur..  unfortunately you don't get a choice of where and when you go as a serviceman, no matter what your personal views are, but that's life in the suit..

I march and I wear my medals proudly.. No warmonger, no superhuman.. But I've not experienced the true 'Horrors' of War.. The irony is that the terrible actions that occurred during the real 'Wars' _NEED_ to be 'celebrated', not for 'romanticisation of war' but to remind the rest of the population of what actually occurred..

Anyway, rant off.. 

Regards,

Buster

P.S. I’ve deleted a whole swag of stuff, so I hope it's still reasonably coherent..


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## robert toms (1 May 2008)

What worries me is when it does become a romantic notion...every conflict that we have been involved in is always preceded by a heavy inculcation or propaganda campaign.
Demonstratably the biggest bully since world war two is the US...but we blindly follow them ,I believe ,to buy insurance in case we are attacked.
The  way Australia has behaved we make ourselves a target.
When Australian SAS troops come home bragging how many Iraqis that they killed ,I think that our involvement is in question.
I believe that Australia is a post-colonial country,ill at ease and incongruous with the region.
It takes commitment and honesty to act with  goodwill and intelligence in world affairs,and not run with a pack.
These are the questions that we should pay attention to on Anzac day.
One incident that was indicative Australia's inability to live in the region was the Corby affair.An Australian drug trafficker was caught cold in Denpasar....what did the Australian media and their blind followers do?..question Indonesian integrity and honesty.The judges became blind monkeys.
What we should also do on Anzac is question Australia's place in the world,and why we are a country that ends up in so many conflicts.
When the Chinese ,during the Vietnam war,talked about the US and its running dogs...the penny dropped for me ,at last.
Could not argue with that.


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## Sean K (1 May 2008)

Julia said:


> Robert, Prospector and Wayne:  thank you for providing some balance against the increasing romanticisation of war.



ANZAC Day is romanticising war? Golly Julia, which Dawn Services have you been going to? 

I missed this year, because I ´m indisposed, but didn ´t miss the previous 15 which were normally with my unit. They were hardly _celebrations_.


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## numbercruncher (1 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> When Australian SAS troops come home bragging how many Iraqis that they killed ,I think that our involvement is in question.




Ive never heard any Australian servicemen "Bragging" about how many "Iraqis" they _killed_.

Ive seen seen no shortage of fascists bragging about how many westeners theyve killed via the media though, and even more disturbingly what they want to do to westerners or more loosely unbelievers.


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## Julia (1 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> The people that I know that have served in actual war events,do not want to be reminded of it.Without exception they do not speak of their experiences and only attest to the folly of war.
> This Gallipolli journey seems to have become a cult event .You had to be there!
> As Hebrides said the old men start the wars and the young men fight them.
> They do this for a variety of reasons,young,adventurous and reckless rate very highly.
> ...



If I've offended anyone with the use of the word 'romanticisation' I apologise.
What I was trying to reflect was Robert's sentence  'I think he marched once on Anzac Day" above and other comments similarly making it clear that many of those who served did not want any reminders of any part of it.

Buddy, of course I respect people who genuinely want to protect Australia, or act as peacekeepers.
I believe a Defence Force should be that, but not a force of aggression against other countries, viz Iraq, Afghanistan etc.   What I hate is when, e.g. GW Bush solemnly looks over yet another huge number of coffins of the young men and women of his country and say stuff like "they gave their lives in a just cause" etc etc.  Hopefully with our new government we may be somewhat less likely to blindly do America's bidding.

I don't think I'm doing very well at explaining what I mean.  Absolutely understand the commemmoration of people who gave their lives, but worry that sometimes that sense of the nobility of so doing can translate into some sort of glorification of war.


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## davedelaney (1 May 2008)

G/day everyone, names Dave & a newie here & have been enjoying reading, I have been particularly interested in your Anzac thread as my poem was read by Lt.Col. Paul Murphy (Ret.) at Villers-Bretonneux school & 2 of my books 1st vol & 2nd vol. were presented to the school for their library. I will paste the poem for you all to read.

Villers-Bretonneux

As we gather here this day on this historic occasion
Dignitaries, visitors and locals feeling heartfelt emotion
Remembering our Diggers repelling a ferocious German force
Helping to slow the advancing war, “history changing course”

Advance they did under darkness with typical larrikinism
These battle weary men, moving forward with precision
On the 25th of April, the Germans encircled and trapped
Our Anzacs closed in, their energy all but sapped

The enemy, those not caught, bolted at a great pace
This town in ruins, devastation shown on the locals’ face
Soon the rebuilding started, chateaux, churches and homes
The gratitude of these people, forever will be known

Saluting the thousands, for freedom they gave their life
In this time where oppressive and inhumane death was rife
To the 1200 brave young men who never returned
Their spirits in the vast fields, are forever interned

So for the beautiful people of Villers-Bretonneux
My heartfelt words I write for all, will be forever heard
Your thoughts and kindness in our minds leaves no doubt
That international mateship, yes! This is what it’s about

To remember and honour our Anzacs every April as well
We acknowledge your suffering, at what seemed like hell
Working together side by side, rebuilding your town
Time has proved over the years, our friendship has no bounds

While back home, in the city or outback riding the fences
Those that returned, for a while forgetting the horror trenches
Remembering this town, and proudly wearing the slouched hat
Warmly referring to these wonderful folk simply as “Mate”

Now one thing that stands clear through all this ceremony
Something that can’t be bought for any sum of money
Three simple words, prove our friendship will never be a failure
N’oublions jamais I’Australie or never forget Australia.

Lest we forget.

David J Delaney


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## Prospector (1 May 2008)

Hi Dave and welcome.  That was certainly an honour for you - I take it you are a war historian?

Maybe you could explain why it is only this year that there has been any focus at all on Villers Bretonneux, given that on the 25th April 90 years ago, the Australians gained a major foothold against the German onslaught.  I didn't even know about the actual date until this year, nor I think, did most Australians.  Yet my grandfather served there.  All we would hear about in the media for Anzac Day was the Gallipoli story, which was a monumental military failure.  So, I guess, why has the VB story been completely ignored until now?


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## robert toms (1 May 2008)

Of course you haven't heard of any Australians bragging about  their kill rate in Iraq.
The article appeared briefly in the the West Australian newspaper...the SAS troops also suggested that they should all get medals.
When I tried to trace the article a few hours later it was gone...no doubt some junior employees got into trouble for printing info not in the national interest.
If we think that Australians,both civilian or military, are far better or far worse than anyone else....we have been deluded by our own propaganda.
I tried to get my local member ,Alexander Downer,to verify the story for me and of course he would not buy into that.


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## Prospector (1 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> I tried to get my local member ,Alexander Downer,to verify the story for me and of course he would not buy into that.



A bit damp in the Hills today robert?  Good to see at last!:

Sorry :topic


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## numbercruncher (1 May 2008)

robert toms said:


> Of course you haven't heard of any Australians bragging about  their kill rate in Iraq.




Tom your a smart guy surely you can see the difference between Bragging about their Kill rate (If indeed they did) and Bragging about how many Iraqis they killed as you said in your original post ?


Also you automatically beleive the writer of this vanished article over and above our professional servicemen, Id be willing to think that maybe the reporter was down the pub and some larikens were having a laugh with him or at him ? Plenty of Journalists have been hoaxed before, or whats to say the person who wrote the article isnt a Australia hater trying to tarnish our good image and fair reputation ?

Maybe you should approach the newspaper instead of trying in vain to tie up a member of parliments valuable time ?


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## 2020hindsight (1 May 2008)

davedelaney said:


> G/day everyone, names Dave & a newie here & have been enjoying reading, I have been particularly interested in your Anzac thread as my poem was read by Lt.Col. Paul Murphy (Ret.) at Villers-Bretonneux school & 2 of my books 1st vol & 2nd vol. were presented to the school for their library. I will paste the poem for you all to read.
> 
> Villers-Bretonneux
> 
> .... Helping to slow the advancing war, “history changing course”



good stuff David
say, is it true that the diggers used to refer to Villers-Bretonneux as "VB" ? 
(by which I mean the ease of memory association with the beer)


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## davedelaney (2 May 2008)

G/day Prospector, sorry, but I am not a historian but have always loved history & especially Aussie war history, I am currently working on our rats of Tobuk & love the accolades our guys in any of our forces recieve, when the germans, under the leadership of Erwin Rommell, tried to take Tobruk failed when confronted by the Aussies, (their were some other nations there but in very small numbers), It's been said Hitler asked why the might of the german army was stopped by a division of colonials, to which Rommell was reported to reply "Sir they are not a division of colonials, they are a division of Australians, give me 2 divisions of Australians & I will conquer the world for you". 

Prospector I am a former Furniture removalist of 25 years & successfully opertated my own removal company for 17 of these, I am currently branch manager for a radiator distribution company, I have self published 2 poetry books of Aussie bush, war, heartfelt writings, I have never had any formal education in writing (shows in some of my spelling) I made grade 8 when I was 15yrs old & left after 3 months & entered the workforce & have literaly worked my butt off to get to where I am now.

2020hindsight, I think somewhere along throughout the years someone commented on the initials VB & I think it stuck, the emblem for Villers-Bretonneux is VB in the shape of a kangaroo & yes the people there love Aussies.

Dave.


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## Aussiejeff (2 May 2008)

davedelaney said:


> G/day Prospector, sorry, but I am not a historian but have always loved history & especially Aussie war history, I am currently working on our rats of Tobuk & love the accolades our guys in any of our forces recieve, when the germans, under the leadership of Erwin Rommell, tried to take Tobruk failed when confronted by the Aussies, (*their were some other nations there but in very small numbers*), It's been said Hitler asked why the might of the german army was stopped by a division of colonials, to which Rommell was reported to reply "Sir they are not a division of colonials, they are a division of Australians, give me 2 divisions of Australians & I will conquer the world for you". Dave.




Hi Dave. 

I just finished reading the biography of Lt General Sir Leslie Morshead (titled "Morshead") written by Military Historian J.H. Moore in 1976. I happened to note that in fact, if it weren't for the brilliant performance of supporting British Field Artillery and heavy machinegun units, along with British tanks (less effective) then Tobruk would likely have been lost within a short timeframe, regardless of the Australian 9th Infantry Div's heroic defence.

For your info, the following units (various sources) I have noted as beginning the frontline defence of Tobruk on 10th April 1941:

9th Infantry Division (Aust)
1 Anti-Tank Regiment (Aust)
3 Anti-Tank Companys (Aust)
1st Royal Horse Artillery Regiment (Brit)
104th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment (Brit)
107th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment (Brit)
51st Field Regiment (Brit)
Royal Northumberland Fusiliers Medium Machinegun Regiment (Brit)
First Kings Dragoon Guards Reconnaissance Regiment (Brit)
Anti-Aircraft Regiments (Brit)
One Anti-Tank Regiment (Brit)
18th Cavalry Regiment (Indian)
About 30 Brit tanks (held in reserve).

According to Wikipedia, this initial force was later reinforced and replaced from September 1941 onwards by the British 70th Infantry Division, Polish Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade, a Czechoslovak battalion and a British tank brigade. The siege continued until Dec 1941.

So, the contribution by the British field artillery and anti-tank gun units in particular was crucial in holding Tobruk and cannot be underestimated. Morshead was quoted as saying as much in his biography. Unfortunately, the same could not be said of the British Commanders who Morshead found almost to a man to be verging on the incompetent! It was indeed fortunate that a colonial Commander of Morshead's stature was left the task of the initial 6 months of siege defence....

Cheers,


AJ


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## robert toms (2 May 2008)

Davedelaney...I spoke to a few Norwegians a few years ago and they knew all about Tobruk and were very impressed by the Australian soldiers...letting the tanks go over the top of their postions etc.
They had a belief that all Australian boys were brought up to be crackshots with a rifle...I was sorry to disappoint them by attesting to my own inaccuracy!
Anyway the Tobruk legend has travelled far and wide.


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## Sean K (3 May 2008)

Prospector said:


> Maybe you could explain why it is only this year that there has been any focus at all on Villers Bretonneux, given that on the 25th April 90 years ago, the Australians gained a major foothold against the German onslaught.  I didn't even know about the actual date until this year, nor I think, did most Australians.  Yet my grandfather served there.



P, I can ´t see how you can be serious about commenting on these issues when you didn ´t even know the dates of this most important conflict, and your grandfather was there?  

As far as focusing on VB this year, I anticipate many other significant Australian battle sites will be commemorated into the future. Kokoda already has been, and I wouldn ´t be surprised if Long Tan became another focal point. 

ANZAC Day hasn ´t been just about Gallipoli for some time. 

By commemorating and remembering the sacrifce and folly in some way, lets hope we learn from our ways and don ´t go through it again. 

However, I doubt that. We are human. 

Damn, just look around the world now. Kaos.


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## 2020hindsight (3 May 2008)

davedelaney said:


> ... I am currently working on our rats of Tobuk & love the accolades our guys in any of our forces recieve, when the germans, under the leadership of Erwin Rommell, tried to take Tobruk failed when confronted by the Aussies, (their were some other nations there but in very small numbers), It's been said Hitler asked why the might of the german army was stopped by a division of colonials, to which Rommell was reported to reply "*Sir they are not a division of colonials, they are a division of Australians, give me 2 divisions of Australians & I will conquer the world for you"*.



Dave
any evidence for this quote? - it would be great I concede - just that I 've also read that the Canadians claim a similar quote ... something about ..
"Give me 2 divisions of Canadians with American resupply, & I will conquer the world for you"  (also unproven).   

appreciate any links to any joy you have had in crediting the aussies with this one.


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## 2020hindsight (3 May 2008)

Prospector said:


> 1. Maybe you could explain why it is only this year that there has been any focus at all on Villers Bretonneux, given that on the 25th April 90 years ago, the Australians gained a major foothold against the German onslaught.  I didn't even know about the actual date until this year, nor I think, did most Australians.  Yet my grandfather served there.
> 
> 2. All we would hear about in the media for Anzac Day was the Gallipoli story, which was a monumental military failure.  So, I guess, why has the VB story been completely ignored until now?




I pretty much agree Prospector  - the fact that it coincided with Anzac Day was news to me until this year as well.  

Has the VB story been ignored till now?  Compared to Gallipoli I guess you are right -  Certainly it sounds like VB will get more publicity in future.   And Aussies working in UK for instance have a better chance of getting to France than to Gallipoli for a weekend .  



			
				kennas said:
			
		

> 3.  P, I can’t see how you can be serious about commenting on these issues when you didn’t even know the dates of this most important conflict, and your grandfather was there?
> 
> 4. As far as focusing on VB this year, I anticipate many other significant Australian battle sites will be commemorated into the future. Kokoda already has been, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Long Tan became another focal point.



kennas, 
3. tough call (imo) - not as if you gave her the answer to her question  , other than .....

4. it's becoming fashionable I guess.

PS They recently round some aussies in a grave during roadworks near Ypes and went to great trouble to DNA identify two of them and bring them home.  Grasping at history.  
 Anzac Day 2008, France
PS things like student tours of European Anzac battlefields also becoming fashionable... My daughter almost went but the tour fell through..


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## Pronto (3 May 2008)

I don't know whether Rommel did or didn't say this, but these sorts of statements are made by almost all countries about their own servicemen's prowess in wartime. 

An acquaintance (in the British Army) attended the Italian Army Staff College and told me that his Italian classmates would talk about the courage and daring of Italian soldiers in the Western Desert and elsewhere in WWII. 

The Allies during the war often had a much different view.


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## Prospector (3 May 2008)

kennas said:


> P, I can ´t see how you can be serious about commenting on these issues when you didn ´t even know the dates of this most important conflict, and your grandfather was there?




Just proves my point, he never talked about it when he got home.  Just wanted to forget it all.  So my grandmother and mother never forced him to.  And it isnt like we are taught much at school - we only ever heard about how wonderful the British were.  And certainly, apart from this year, that is all the media fed us too. And really it is only in the last 10 years or so we became the Information Age being able to access this information through the media.  

So from the perspective of someone who has never met their grandfather because of the war, I would have thought I have more 'right' to comment than many others who are posting.   So are you saying that because I didnt know details or dates (because that is how he wanted it) that I have somehow don't deserve a voice?    Or are you suggesting I made it all up 

We have applied for his war record, when it arrives (it is taking forever) I will post it for you.  I do have my father's war record though, but from Korea, and that never rates a mention in the media.

Maybe you just dont know what it was like for those who were serving and how they felt when they returned home. Even though you have served yourself.  But did you actually go to war or just did the training.  For them it was over, never to be repeated; which was why he was so distressed when WWII started.  It was like we hadn't learnt a thing.   


It is only in the last few years that people gave the diggers, WWII, Korea and Vietnam vets any respect at all.  

Thanks 20/20, although maybe kennas thinks you dont deserve a voice either?


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## 2020hindsight (3 May 2008)

Tell you what Prospector ...

the way young drunken Aussies carry on lol  (gday - my name's Bazza McKenzie - yep - I'm an Aussie - true blue - bet you Pierres really loved our Anzacs eh?) 

...     I wonder if we blow our welcome, and they find some excuse to "desist" with annual VB celebrations at some future date 

PS or introduce non-alcoholic beer lol.


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## 2020hindsight (3 May 2008)

davedelaney said:


> rommel quotes etc



but you're right in that there are some great Rommel quotes 

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/history/42931-erwin-rommel.html


> 1. "In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine."
> 
> 2. "Courage which goes against military expediency is stupidity, or, if it is insisted upon by a commander, irresponsibility."
> 
> ...



Quotations about Rommel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel#Quotations_of_Erwin_Rommel


> 10. The British Parliament considered a censure vote against Winston Churchill following the surrender of Tobruk. The vote failed, but in the course of the debate, Churchill stated:
> "We have a very daring and skilful opponent against us, and, may I say across the havoc of war, a great general."
> 
> 11. Churchill again, on hearing of Rommel's death:
> "He also deserves our respect, because, although a loyal German soldier, he came to hate Hitler and all his works, and took part in the conspiracy to rescue Germany by displacing the maniac and tyrant. For this, he paid the forfeit of his life. In the sombre wars of modern democracy, there is little place for chivalry."




As for quote #7, the only reason we beat him (esp Monty etc) was the fact that Enigma code had been broken - and the more Hitler insisted in being involved in decision making - the more the Allies (also) knew  .  As for his resupply, a Spotter Plane would fly past on the horizon and pretend to spot them - to hide the fact that we knew from intercepted codes that resupply was on its way - and we'd take the ships out.     Rommel knew what was going on - but Hitler and co refused to believe it .  

As Wellington said - (albeit about Waterloo rather than WWII) - "the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life"


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## Sean K (4 May 2008)

Prospector said:


> So from the perspective of someone who has never met their grandfather because of the war, I would have thought I have more 'right' to comment than many others who are posting.   So are you saying that because I didnt know details or dates (because that is how he wanted it) that I have somehow don't deserve a voice?    Or are you suggesting I made it all up



Yes, you are right, apologies. I didn ´t consider that comment too well. Must be this Amazonian humidity. I just can ´t understand why we shouldn ´t be drawing attention to the serviceman who have  ´done their duty ´ and recognising their service whether it was right or wrong in a politcal sence. As far as ex diggers not wanting to talk about their service and not participate in ANZAC Days, they obviously need some counselling, and if we just look at them and say Ã³h well, that was the war ´and don ´t do anything about it, they ´ll live (and did live) a life in depression. Any more focus put on ANZAC Day and what it really means can only be a good thing IMO. And yes, I did three tours of  ´war like ´ service, only one where it was really dodgy, but a far cry from the Western Front. But that all needs to be put in perspective too. Some may say no one ´s war experience should be compared for how hard and distressing it was. Treading on murky ground there.


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## davedelaney (6 May 2008)

Hi all,
Thank you aussiejeff for your comments, much appreiciated, Jeff I try to read any infomation I can lay my hands on then condense into (hopefuly) a great poem, I concentrate on Aussies because I write for Aussies & what they like to hear, I have put together some info & a link if you are interested in reading more, I know the Brits, were there as were Indians & Lybian labourers, but it was the Aussies who did the area patrols, nighttime raids, hand to hand & bayonet attacks.

Dave.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tobruk was an Italian port fortress captured in January 1941. It became an important port and supply base. When the German Afrika Korps under General Erwin Rommel began its advance against British and Australian forces in March 1941, many British and Australian troops retreated within the fortress - thus began the famous siege of Tobruk.
*About half the forces contained inside Tobruk were Australian.* Most were members of the 9th Division AIF, with three infantry brigades (20th, 24th and 26th Brigades). There was also one infantry brigade from the 7th Division AIF, the 18th Brigade, along with many 7th Division motor transport troops. Others included artillery, medical, engineer and supply troops. The fortress was ringed by trenches, tank traps and minefields.

Brigades in the 2d Australian Imperial Forces (AIF) contained three battalions, each recruited chiefly on a regional basis. For the sake of tradition, battalions took the numbers of their counterparts in the World War I 1st AIF, with the prefix 2- preceding the new unit designations. In addition to its headquarters and support companies, the battalion consisted of four rifle companies, each composed of three 30-man platoons. The strength of an Australian infantry battalion varied, but in the Middle East it contained 32 officers and 750 to 770 men. The total strength for an infantry division was about 14,000, to include its headquarters, three brigades, an antitank regiment, field artillery regiment, engineers, and signal.
*By 10 April 1941, the garrison at Tobruk consisted of the 9th Australian Division with its three brigades of infantry-the 20th, 24th, and 26th-together with the 18th Brigade of the 7th Australian Division and several thousand British and Indian troops. Altogether, 14,270 Australian troops; 9,000 British troops; about 5,700 troops of mixed Australian, British, and Indian origin; and 3,000 Libyan laborers defended Tobruk. *

On 14 April 1941 the troops at Tobruk were placed under the command of the Australian Major-General Leslie Morshead, commander of the 9th Division. He was dubbed by the German propaganda broadcaster, Lord Haw Haw, 'Ali Baba Morshead and his 40,000 thieves'. Lord Haw Haw also gave those at Tobruk their most famous nickname, the 'Rats of Tobruk', by broadcasting that they were caught like 'rats in a trap'

As well as infantry, many supporting troops also were 'Rats of Tobruk'. Supply depots and medical posts were established at various points within the perimeter, often utilising caves and underground bunkers that could not be bombed. German and Italian bombers flew many missions over the fortress meaning the siege was dangerous for all involved.

The British attempted to relieve the garrison at Tobruk but it took over seven months for a breakthrough to be made with British forces linking up with the Tobruk garrison in early December. By this time, most of the Australian forces had been relieved and transported to Egypt on warships. Only one Australian battalion, the 2/13th Infantry Battalion, was still at Tobruk when the British lifted the siege.

The Australians had suffered about 3000 troops killed and wounded during the siege, with another 941 taken prisoner. Some of those captured were taken when German forces made small advances, while others were captured while on patrol 'outside the wire'. These fighting patrols were especially dangerous, as troops often were ordered to attack enemy troop concentrations, which required them to advance stealthily, attack and then withdraw across fireswept ground.

After the Australians were evacuated, Tobruk was again besieged when German forces counter-attacked in January 1942. The British and South African garrison was forced to surrender.


http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/miller/miller.asp


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## Sean K (24 May 2008)

Great to see that ANZAC Day is being extended to cover the other areas where Australians served to defend this country and it's interests. 



> *Plans for annual Villers-Bretonneux Anzac Day service*
> May 23, 2008
> 
> THE federal Government will discuss with French authorities the staging of annual Anzac Day services in Villers-Bretonneux.
> ...


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## Sean K (14 August 2008)

There was some heated discussion in this thread some time ago (probably around ANZAC Day) when some people thought we shouldn't be 'celebrating' ANZAC Day, or glorifying it in any way.

I agree we shouldn't be glorifing it, or celebrating, but it's a day to recognise what serving members have contributed to their country, whether they wanted to, or not.

Today, I see that the members of Delta Company 6 RAR will finally be recognised for the battle of Long Tan and their tremendous courage and galantry in holding off a significantly much larger force of NVA, with the assistance of some NZ arty. 


*Long Tan men to finally get gallantry medals*
Tony Wright 
August 14, 2008 

FORTY-TWO years after their unit fought through a long and bloody night in a rubber plantation at Long Tan in Vietnam, the veterans of Delta Company, 6RAR, will finally be allowed to wear a citation for gallantry awarded by the former government of the Republic of Vietnam.

Their old commander, Harry Smith, will receive Australia's Star of Gallantry, second only to the Victoria Cross, denied him after the battle of Long Tan in 1966 through military deceit and political secrecy.

..

Now, when the men of D Company attend Long Tan Day services around Australia on Monday, each will be able to wear the emblem of the citation.


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## 2020hindsight (14 August 2008)

kennas said:


> .... with the assistance of some NZ arty.




kennas
I'm sure you've heard this one , ..
The Corps motto for both the Engineers and the Artillery is "ubique"  (YOO be kway)

In the case of the Engineers it means "Everywhere"
In the case of the Artillery it means "All over the place" 

PS about time for that recognition, 42 years ! sheesh 

Apparently 2 days before Long Tan, they downgraded the Vietnam war to "less dangerous than Korea" - halved the "recognition factor" - out of the hands of the average bureaucrats - and only the Govt could intervene to set it right (as I understand it).


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## glenn_r (14 August 2008)

The book "Vietnam - The Australian War"  by Paul Ham, is a great read for those that want to know the facts around our involvement in that war.

The politicians as usual are shown up to be yellow backed bastards in a lot of back room deals and strangely the South Vietnam Government never officially asked for our help but we sent our troops anyway.

As a "Drop Short" for 20 odd years the Royal Australian Artillery motto is as follows, " UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DU****" which loosely translated means "Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead"

Finally its great to see the guys from Delta Company are finally receiving their citations.

Ubique

Glenn


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## 2020hindsight (14 August 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> ..  Apparently 2 days before Long Tan, they downgraded the Vietnam war to "less dangerous than Korea" - halved the "recognition factor" - out of the hands of the average bureaucrats - and only the Govt could intervene to set it right (as I understand it).




Interview with retired Lieutenant Colonel Harry Smith on this morning's AM.  
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2334834.htm


> SAMANTHA DONOVAN: Next Monday retired Lieutenant Colonel Harry Smith and some of his men will get together in Queensland to mark the 42nd anniversary of the Battle of Long Tan






> SAMANTHA DONOVAN: The Federal Government has finally agreed to award Harry Smith the Star of Gallantry, which he says he'll accept on behalf of all his men, particularly the 18 who were killed at Long Tan.
> 
> His platoon commanders Dave Sabben and Geoff Kendall will be offered the Medal for Gallantry, recognising they never received the awards Harry Smith recommended them for.
> 
> And the entire D Company 6th Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment is finally being given permission to wear the Gallantry Crosses with the citation emblem awarded to them in 1966 by the then Republic of Vietnam.






> Veteran Affairs Minister Alan Griffin says today's announcement is long overdue.
> 
> ALAN GRIFFIN: This has been a battle for recognition, due recognition to everyone who was part of the Battle of Long Tan. The fact is, it shouldn't have taken this long.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sean K (14 August 2008)

glenn_r said:


> As a "Drop Short" for 20 odd years the Royal Australian Artillery motto is as follows, " UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DU****" which loosely translated means "Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead"



Glenn, 

I just went off memory that it was NZ sausage men in the line supporting 6 RAR. Is that the case?

Sorry, if it was Aussie's sending rounds down. 

kennas


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 August 2008)

glenn_r said:


> As a "Drop Short" for 20 odd years the Royal Australian Artillery motto is as follows, " UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DU****" which loosely translated means "Everywhere Where Right and Glory Lead"



thanks glenn
btw, let's settle for UBIQUE QUOFAS ET GLORIA DUCANT shall we 
- lol - 
That's the thing about these unthinking computers 
.... swear-checker is looking over your shoulder all the time, 
irrespective of whether you are speaking the noblest Latin,   or the crudest English


----------



## glenn_r (14 August 2008)

Kennas,

Off the top of my head there was a Kiwi forward observer party attached to D Company at Long Tan but the rounds came from Aussie guns in Nui Dat.

http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/vietnam/longtan.html


----------



## Sean K (14 August 2008)

glenn_r said:


> Kennas,
> 
> Off the top of my head there was a Kiwi forward observer party attached to D Company at Long Tan but the rounds came from Aussie guns in Nui Dat.
> 
> http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/vietnam/longtan.html



Cheers, well whatever the case, I think Australians sometimes forget that there's an NZ part to the ANZAC bit, and after been to Galipolli and understand the NZ contribution, and served with Kiwis on operations, I can't help but get a lump in my throat whenever I discuss Australian and NZ forces operating together. Like they are now in most places. 

Shame they can't play cricket. 

But, pound for pound, probably the best sportng and fighting force in the world. Glad they're on our team.


----------



## Sean K (20 April 2009)

Crikey, ANZAC Day has come around again, so fast. 

For those who think we're 'celebrating' war take a step back. Please.

War is not what ANYONE wants. 

But, lets accept that we need to defend our country, our friends, and our interests. 

And, some people put up their hands. Or, are required to.

Many have sacrificed and died in all sorts of conflicts throughout our development. 

Lest we forget.


----------



## gav (20 April 2009)

Well said Kennas.

Lest We Forget.


----------



## shag (20 April 2009)

from my experience very few remember the dead, so its good this day has had a resurgence, but u do wonder if for many its about remembering the ones who gave their lives when often so young and what war is or was really like.
no film can realistically show the rats, maggots, flies, stench, famine, extremes in temperature or shear terror of seeing yr mates get slaughtered and not knowing if its going to be you next.


----------



## sting (20 April 2009)

I WAS THAT WHICH OTHERS DID NOT WANT TO BE.
I WENT WHERE OTHERS FEARED TO GO,
AND DID WHAT OTHERS FAILED TO DO.
I ASKED NOTHING FROM THOSE WHO GAVE NOTHING,
AND RELUCTANTLY ACCEPTED THE THOUGHT OF
ETERNAL LONELINESS ...SHOULD I FAIL.
I HAVE SEEN THE FACE OF TERROR; 
FELT THE STINGING COLD OF FEAR;
AND ENJOYED THE SWEET TASTE Of A MOMENTS LOVE.
I HAVE CRIED, PAINED, AND HOPED ...BUT MOST OF ALL,
I HAVE LIVED TIMES OTHERS WOULD SAY WERE BEST FORGOTTEN. 
AT LEAST SOMEDAY I WILL BE ABLE TO SAY THAT I WAS PROUD OF

WHAT I WAS...
*A SOLDIER*

Let us all take time to remember those who gave the ulimate sacrifice so that we may live in freedom. I support Kenna's statement no one wants to comemorate war but rather the day is a universal day to pay homage and give thanks to whose who often knowingly gave up their lives for us.

Anzac day is my biggest Parade day of the yr. Starting at 0300hrs I am the Guard Commander for 4 services ending at approx 1300hrs. And not even a drink passes my lips the entire day. 

The last 5 generations of my family have served their country either here or the UK and soon to be 6 when my son heads off to Kapooka to join the armoured corps better than a drop shot he reckons.

Two of these gave up their lives in battle one at El Alamein and the other in the Boer war.

For these brave men I gladly give up my day to march in their honour.

UBIQUE


----------



## sting (20 April 2009)

Sir

Sir - would it help if I shed a tear
I swear it’s the first time since this time last year
My spine is a tingle - my throat is all dry
As I stand to attention for all those who died

I watch the flag dancing half way down the pole
That damn bugle player sends chills to my soul
I feel the pride and the sorrow - there’s nothing the same
As standing to attention on ANZAC Day

So Sir - on behalf of the young and the free
Will you take a message when you finally do leave
To your mates that are lying from Tobruk to the Somme
The legend of your bravery will always live on

I’ve welcomed Olympians back to our shore
I’ve cheered baggy green caps and watched Wallabies score
But when I watch you marching (Sir) in that parade
I know these are the memories that never will fade

So Sir - on behalf of the young and the free
Will you take a message when you finally do leave
It’s the least we can do (Sir) to repay the debt
We’ll always remember you - Lest We Forget

Damian (Dib) Morgan 1998


NO further words needed

UBIQUE


----------



## trainspotter (22 April 2010)

Sunday 25th Anzac Day - Ohhhhh the shame !

*MANY hotels across the city will not honour pensioner concessions for war veterans celebrating reunions on Anzac Day because it falls on a Sunday this year. *

Members of the Royal Marines and Royal Naval associations were told pensioner discounts for their lunch at Glenelg's Watermark Hotel, where they have held Anzac Day reunions for the past three years, would cost them an extra $9 each compared with last year.

The explanation was because it is "a public holiday weekend and a Sunday".


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 April 2010)

trainspotter said:


> Sunday 25th Anzac Day - Ohhhhh the shame !
> 
> *MANY hotels across the city will not honour pensioner concessions for war veterans celebrating reunions on Anzac Day because it falls on a Sunday this year. *
> 
> ...




If this is true, it is disgraceful, 

I for one would be happy to donate $50 to give 5 of those Veterans a discount lunch and $5 left over to shove up the **** of the Owner of the hotel as a tip, it being a Sunday.

If anyone can get a whiparound going, please let us know.

gg


----------



## gav (22 April 2010)

The documentary below sounds interesting.  It's on the ABC in 10mins.


> KOKODA - Part 1 - The Invasion - broadcast 8.30pm Thursday 22 April 

> Part 2 - broadcast 8.30pm on Thursday 29 April 

> This two-part documentary tells the story of the brutal World War II 
> campaign fought between Australia and Japan in the green hell of the 
> mountains of Papua New Guinea.
> 
> Told from both the Japanese and Australian perspectives the series 
> also explores the impact of the decisions of high command on the 
> soldiers at the front line.
> 
> Kokoda delves behind the myths of war to tell the story from both 
> sides of the conflict, giving an authentic and comprehensive account 
> of the desperate confusion of war, the intricate connections between 
> the frontline soldiers and military high command, and the political 
> agendas that influenced the campaign and continue to percolate through
> contemporary Australian society.
> 
> To tell the story with authenticity, the Kokoda film crew walked and 
> filmed the length of the Kokoda Track, capturing for the first time 
> the visceral nature of the terrain and the Owen Stanley Mountains.
> 
> The series follows in the footsteps of Australia's ill-equipped and 
> poorly trained conscripts, the 'chocolate soldiers' and the battled 
> hardened troops of the Australian Imperial Forces, walking the 
> treacherous 98-kilometre jungle trail from Port Moresby to Kokoda, 
> then on to the blood-stained battlegrounds of Gona, Buna and 
> Sanananda.
> 
> The documentary includes interviews with Australian and Japanese 
> veterans and historians, letters to loved ones, previously unpublished
> documents, archival footage, footage from the track and dramatisations
> in Australia and Papua New Guinea. The diaries of embedded war 
> correspondents Okada Seizo and Chester Wilmot paint an intimate 
> portrait of how soldiers on both sides felt during the battles.
> 
> Kokoda introduces the key commanders, including controversial American
> General Douglas MacArthur, Australia's General Sir Thomas Blamey, and 
> Japanese Commander Tomitaro Horii, for whom defeat in a campaign that 
> had cost thousands of Japanese lives, was intolerable.
> 
> Kokoda examines the Australian public's response to military campaigns
> - both then and now - and the myths that they engender.


----------



## nulla nulla (23 April 2010)

Amazing documentary last night. A must see for the second instalment. The 39th Battalian of Militia from Victoria (Choco's) were decimated as they fought a retreat from ridge to ridge before they were finaly re-inforced. 
The docomentary mentioned that many of them were shipped home straight into psychiatric hospitals. That pretty much says it all for what they endured. Their deeds and heroism should never be forgotten.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 April 2010)

gav said:


> The documentary below sounds interesting.  It's on the ABC in 10mins.
> 
> 
> > KOKODA - Part 1 - The Invasion - broadcast 8.30pm Thursday 22 April
> ...




Thanks for the reminder last night mate.

I was chasing my bookie for my winnings in 2007 on Manly, (Storm "won") and had forgotten it was on. I only missed the first 10 minutes.

It was a sobering and respectful first episode. 

Our youth today would do the same if they had to I would hope.

gg


----------



## spooly74 (23 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> If this is true, it is disgraceful,
> 
> gg




This story did the rounds on the airways here yesterday, and not surprisingly, is complete bollox. The owners of several hotels, including the ones in question, cleared up any misunderstanding.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 April 2010)

spooly74 said:


> This story did the rounds on the airways here yesterday, and not surprisingly, is complete bollox. The owners of several hotels, including the ones in question, cleared up any misunderstanding.




Good, I haven't been to Victoria for some months, and was unable to verify.

gg


----------



## spooly74 (23 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Good, I haven't been to Victoria for some months, and was unable to verify.
> 
> gg




SA, gg


----------



## gav (23 April 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks for the reminder last night mate.
> 
> I was chasing my bookie for my winnings in 2007 on Manly, (Storm "won") and had forgotten it was on. I only missed the first 10 minutes.
> 
> ...




No worries GG.  I was deployed to the Solomon Islands in 2004 for 5 months, not long after my 20th birthday.  Fortunately my deployment was a working holiday compared to what the poor bastards depicted in last night's documentary went through.

The weather and terrain in that part of the world is extremely unforgiving.


----------



## Sean K (23 April 2010)

I'm planning on going to the Shrine for Dawn Service in Melbs on Sunday but concerned the crowd will be too big and it'll be a waste. Might head back to my old GRes unit in Broady for there's if it's on.

After that, drinking and the G.


----------



## AussiePaul72 (23 April 2010)

I think it is wonderful that ANZAC Day is as strong as ever across all generations. My kids are having a special ANZAC service on the oval at their school tomorrow night. We are an extremely blessed country and ANZAC day is a day where we can thank all who have and are serving in the armed services for the freedom and standards that we live by. Thanks to all these Aussies for the quality of life we have ....


----------



## robots (23 April 2010)

hello,

crowd is always big kennas, i instead get to the march down swanston and st kilda rd

although the crowd at this is very big now too, the beauty of the march is you get the drums and pipes going for whole time which is awesome man

and you see whole generations of families going for it, yeah get a slab

thankyou
robots


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 April 2010)

A very sad and disturbing story.

*96 year old Rat of Tobruk robbed.*

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/w...ed-embarrassed-and-ashamed-20100423-tioo.html

A Victorian man accused of robbing a World War II veteran is embarrassed and ashamed, his lawyer says.

Aaron McKellar faced court today charged with robbing and injuring Reg Dickinson, 96, as he headed to his suburban Hoppers Crossing nursing home residence on a motorised scooter on Wednesday.


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 April 2010)

Anyone interested in finding someone they knew from WW2. Service and name with initials should get you there.

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/


----------



## Muschu (23 April 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Anyone interested in finding someone they knew from WW2. Service and name with initials should get you there.
> 
> http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/




Thanks Wysiwgg.  Found my dad.  

Anything similiar for WW1?

Appreciated

Rick


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 April 2010)

Muschu said:


> Thanks Wysiwgg.  Found my dad.
> 
> Anything similiar for WW1?
> 
> ...



Good to see Rick. I found my grandfather was on the list but the information isn't anything we didn't already know.

Can't find a WW1 roll call. 

W.


----------



## nulla nulla (24 April 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Anyone interested in finding someone they knew from WW2. Service and name with initials should get you there.
> 
> http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/




Thanks for that. I was able to track down records for family members I couldn't previously find.


----------



## Lert (24 April 2010)

For WW1 and other records the best place is here:

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/service-records/army-wwi.aspx

Go to 'Find and view a WW1 service record on line'


----------



## Muschu (24 April 2010)

Lert said:


> For WW1 and other records the best place is here:
> 
> http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/service-records/army-wwi.aspx
> 
> Go to 'Find and view a WW1 service record on line'




Excellent Lert.  Many thanks.  Found a grandfather who served in WW1 and who was left for dead, twice, on battlefields - only to be found alive among the corpses later.  He acquired, not surprisingly, the nickname "Lucky".

Any idea, please, how extensive the records are if a full copy of service is requested?

With thanks

Rick


----------



## Lert (24 April 2010)

When you find the bloke you are looking for, click the 'view digital copy' then you can step through each page. In the case of the people I've looked for in my family there were 30-50 pages. I'm not sure what you get if you order a hard copy. I just save each page to my PC.

Of the 6 family members in my family who served o/s in WW1 only one came back, and that was after being shot, gassed then 10 months as a POW. The POW bit was what saved him in the end so maybe he was 'lucky' too..


----------



## Tink (25 April 2010)

Lest we forget


----------



## Calliope (26 April 2010)

WW2 Veterans will soon be just a memory.



> WHERE once there were long lines of men marching in parades that stretched the length of our cities like rows of corn, now there are only a few of those who fought in defence of Australia, and the banners they march behind are not far apart.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...arred-by-tragedy/story-e6frgdaf-1225858135523


----------



## Sean K (26 April 2010)

Great Anzac Day for me.

Went to the Dawn Service in Melbs with my bro and was lucky to be close to the front of about 40,000 people. Great Last Post less one note. Good speaches and band work. Please lose the Welsh choir for next year. 

Marched with old friends behind the new RAAMC banner.

And got pissed in the Long Room watching Essendon destroy the Pies.

Ah well, can't win em all.


----------



## Calliope (26 April 2010)

By the time Rudd's Anzac centenary arrives in 2015 the number of vets participating who have fought in defence of Australia will be only a handful.

All the battles and skirmishes and interventions our forces have been involved in after WW2 have been for other reasons...usually political.


----------



## Sean K (27 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> By the time Rudd's Anzac centenary arrives in 2015 the number of vets participating who have fought in defence of Australia will be only a handful.
> 
> All the battles and skirmishes and interventions our forces have been involved in after WW2 have been for other reasons...usually political.



You're spot on.

No one whose served in the the Defence Force in recent years has done a thing. Just sucking money off the tax payer really.

And, WWI and II weren't political at all. 



Oh dear, be calm kennas


----------



## Calliope (27 April 2010)

kennas said:


> And, WWI and II weren't political at all.
> 
> :




Well if you think fighting the Japanese for the defence of Australia was political, perhaps you could tell me what your non-political alternative would have been. Surrender?


----------



## Mofra (27 April 2010)

Was interesting to read about some of the more recent Veterans who don't participate in ANZAC day, especially those who have come back from the Gulf or Afganistan. They simply don't seem to attack the same level of respect of other veterans, despite the courage under fire many have shown.

I know people I served with who fall into this group - PTSD is a very insideous disorder to cope with, and the lack of sufficient support services for some of these people is disgraceful.


----------



## Sean K (27 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Well if you think fighting the Japanese for the defence of Australia was political, perhaps you could tell me what your non-political alternative would have been. Surrender?



What planet are you on Calliope? It's all political.

"War is the continuation of policy (politics) by other means."
- Karl von Clausewitz

You stated that everything after WWII was just political inferring it had no point.

You think us going to the Boar War and WWI were defending our country and not 'political'. You think WWI was not political?

WWI didn't have to happen and was the result of political alliances gone horribly wrong.

Blackadder had the answer to why WWI started, but I think Baldrick nailed it at 1.09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfIwY4Ej9aM


----------



## Sean K (27 April 2010)

kennas said:


> What planet are you on Calliope?



Apologies if I seemed to come over as mad; I'm obviously invested in the ANZAC thingy. Grandfathers and an Uncle all served significantly and it's never, ever, ever, a wasted venture for those that serve. Especially for me. 

There are more deeper philosophical reasons for people joining the ADF, but most stand by the accepted (and expected) line that they are serving the Nation. ie, You. 

I stand by that in the bigger picture, the military is an instrument of our culture. Our culture dictates political decisions which dictates our international political and military decisions. 

In the short term countries are stuck in near term political expediencies and there are just pockets of forward thinkers that truly see the future. In the end, it's all politics. 

This diatribe regarding future military (political) decisions could go on, but I shall leave it there. For now.


----------



## Calliope (28 April 2010)

kennas said:


> This diatribe regarding future military (political) decisions could go on, but I shall leave it there. For now.




Of course. Your long winded diatribe goes nowhere. I asked you a simple question.



> Well if you think fighting the Japanese for the defence of Australia was political, perhaps you could tell me what your non-political alternative would have been. Surrender?


----------



## Sean K (28 April 2010)

Calliope said:


> Of course. Your long winded diatribe goes nowhere. I asked you a simple question.



Your question?



> Well if you think fighting the Japanese for the defence of Australia was political, perhaps you could tell me what your non-political alternative would have been. Surrender?



Again, you've missed the point. It's all political and the military is the extension of politics when the coffee and biscuit round table discussions fall over. Surrender would also have been a political decision. I think you are missing the link between Defence and Politics. In the US, the President is the Commander and Chief of the Defence Forces. In Australia, the Minister for Defence is our boss. Although at one stage, I think John Howard started taking over just before the East Timor intervention. 

All international conflict, and avoidance of, is political, Calliope.

Tell me what is not.

Your original intent was to denigrate anyone who had served post WWII saying we were just political tools inferring a negative connotation and meaning our service was less important than those who had truely served during 'non political' conflicts like anything before WWII.



> By the time Rudd's Anzac centenary arrives in 2015 the number of vets participating who have *fought in defence of Australia *will be only a handful.
> 
> All the battles and skirmishes and interventions our forces have been involved in after WW2 have been for other reasons...*usually political*.



I made the point in regard to this that The Boar War and WWI were political for Australia. How were those conflicts directly defending our country? The only way we were defending our back yard then was that we were so heavily reliant on the UK and we had some many links there. We were effectively an extension of British Army. An Army controlled by The King. 

Korea, Malaya and Vietnam were much closer to home in defending our national interestes. As was East Timor and The Solomans. 

You need to start looking at this issue in a more logical fashion Calliope.


----------



## Calliope (28 April 2010)

kennas said:


> Your question?




You still have no answer.



> Your original intent was to denigrate anyone who had served post WWII saying we were just political tools




I said nothing of the sort.



> inferring a negative connotation and meaning our service was less important than those who had truely served during 'non political' conflicts like anything before WWII.




I implied nothing of the sort . That was your inference.



> I made the point in regard to this that The Boar War and WWI were political for Australia. How were those conflicts directly defending our country?




I made no reference to pre-WW2 wars, Boar(sic) or otherwise.



> There are more deeper philosophical reasons for people joining the ADF, but most stand by the accepted (and expected) line that they are serving the Nation. ie, You.




So you joined the the ADF to serve me.

You are obviously very young and naive.  I used WW2 as a point of reference because I was involved in that one. I was in the Navy in the SW Pacific war theatre. At reunions  during the last 64 years we have often discussed why we joined up ( many of us at 17, because the Navy was the only service that would take us at that age.) 

We didn't join to serve king and country. It was a big adventure and we all hoped the war wouldn't be over before we were old enough to get involved. A lot us (and there are not many left) thought it was the best time of our lives, and we regarded ourselves as a band of brothers.



> You need to start looking at this issue in a more logical fashion Calliope.




And you need to grow up..and instead of trying to put me down you should stick to the truth.


----------



## IFocus (29 April 2010)

kennas said:


> Your question?
> 
> 
> Again, you've missed the point. It's all political and the military is the extension of politics when the coffee and biscuit round table discussions fall over. Surrender would also have been a political decision. I think you are missing the link between Defence and Politics. In the US, the President is the Commander and Chief of the Defence Forces. In Australia, the Minister for Defence is our boss. Although at one stage, I think John Howard started taking over just before the East Timor intervention.
> ...




Kennas I always thought the Governor General was commander in chief of the armed forces is he / she not really in the chain of command?


----------



## Tatts (30 April 2010)

I also thought that the Governer General was Commander in Chief of the defence force.


----------



## Sean K (30 April 2010)

Tatts said:


> I also thought that the Governer General was Commander in Chief of the defence force.



The Queen is actually, with the GG her representative. But in Australia, we all answer to the Minister for Defence first. It's not a civilian organisation, we are part of the government answerable to, and serving, the people. Even Calliope.

Young and naive. lol

I answered the question Calliope, it's all political. 

Thank you for your service mate.


----------



## Tatts (1 May 2010)

kennas said:


> The Queen is actually, with the GG her representative. But in Australia, we all answer to the Minister for Defence first.




You had me wondering who was CIC so googled the role of GG and i found this:
Under Section 68 of the Constitution, the Governor-General is also the Commander-in-Chief of the Australian Defence Force, although in practice he or she acts only on the advice of Ministers of the Government. The Minister for Defence is responsible for Australia’s defence policy. 
From this site
http://www.gg.gov.au/governorgeneral/category.php?id=2

So technically she is CIC but in reality it is the Minister for Defence.


----------



## Tatts (1 May 2010)

Kennas, is that you on the right in the picture?
If it is, what are the two medals on the right, one is for serving in Afghanistan (i think) but not sure on the other.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (24 April 2011)

Lest We Forget.

Anzac Day 2011.



> Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives. You are now living in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well. (M.K. Ataturk, 1934)




gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (24 April 2012)

Lest we forget.

Anzac Day 2012 tomorrow.



> Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives. You are now living in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well. (M.K. Ataturk, 1934)




gg


----------



## wayneL (24 April 2012)




----------



## wayneL (24 April 2012)

And from this side of the Ditch


----------



## Knobby22 (24 April 2012)

I went to an ANZAC ceremony Sunday with my Cub pack.

It was interesting that the band played the New Zealand National Anthem before our own.

There was no flag waving or any of that Nationalistic stuff. It was just about remembering the dead.

The speech from the Army person who was there basically said that the best way to remember them was to contribute to society by doing good and building it up. 

Quite nice.


----------



## McLovin (24 April 2012)

I can't begin to imagine what the horrors of war are like and thankfully because of those who have fought for this country, I likely never will have to.

Anzac day is a good day for reflection. I'll be up for the dawn service tomorrow morning. Such a small sacrifice to make.


----------



## wayneL (25 April 2012)

One Day In April

For one day in April
We all gather at dawn
To remember and honour
All those who have fallen

We learn how a great nation
Was forged on a Turkish shore
From, steel and lead and sand 
In somebody else's rotten war

But lest we forget that the ordinance
The machines, the ships and the guns
Are just a small part of the picture
Just objects when all said and done

What really makes us great
Are the men who charged up that beach
And all those in wars since then
So liberty is never impeached

Some of those men came home
We doff the cap, shake their hand
But others gave their very lives
And rest in peace in foreign lands

For this reason we gather and march 
On this special day over the years
To toast our dads, our mates, sisters and brothers
It's done with pride, but with tears.

wayneL April 2012


----------



## prawn_86 (25 April 2012)

Amazing Wayne.

I might not be in Aus at the moment but am definitely thinking of, and grateful for, all the amazing ANZAC soldiers past and present


----------



## dutchie (25 April 2012)

Great poem and sentiments Wayne.

Lest we forget.


----------



## Tink (25 April 2012)

Beautiful poem Wayne

Lest we forget


----------



## explod (25 April 2012)

Very cold with a shower or two hear at Mornington this morning but a record crowd turned out for our 6 am service.

A Grandson, "oh, so there are two verses to Advance Australia Fair"

Currently doing music at Uni, so go figure


----------



## Calliope (25 April 2012)

The Anzac Myth according to Craig Stockings who teaches history at the University of NSW in Canberra.



> In my experience the average Australian has a general if intangible impression -- a vague feeling -- that not only have Australian troops achieved incredible feats of arms, but they were able to do so, at some level, thanks to the fact Australians are somehow "naturally superior" soldiers.
> 
> Any historian working in the field recognises such sentiment as nonsense rooted in myth, not evidence. Ethnicity has never been an explanation of battlefield outcomes. Australian soldiers have always been, and are still, ordinary men and women put in extraordinary circumstances. Their place of birth, or nationality, is not connected to their military prowess. The roots of their success, and their failures, have nothing to do with hazy conceptions of national character or ethnic inheritance. Being an Australian is of no consequence to their behaviour under fire, what they achieved, or what they failed to accomplish.










http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...f-the-anzac-myth/story-e6frgd0x-1226337486382


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (25 April 2012)

Quite a moving account of the wartime experiences of broadcaster Barrie Cassidy's dad, William Edward Cassidy who was a POW during WW2.  


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-25/cassidy-life-as-a-prisoner-of-war/3967242








gg


----------



## Sean K (25 April 2012)

I hope fellow vets and all had a good and memorable day.

Unfortunately I missed the dawn service, march, and going to the G due to being house bound in Sydney with an old back injury. :-( 

Lest we forget.


----------



## McLovin (26 April 2012)

I had a great day. Dawn service, then down to the pub for a bit of two-up, then watched the Roosters somehow lose a game they had already won.


----------



## Glen48 (26 April 2012)

In the early 70's I marched in the Anzac parade in Townsville  as we were in uniform we were bused  in, marched, abused and bused home ASAP  to change so we could go in for a drink or two.
 In those days no one fully understood Vietnam  or conscription gladly now it has changed and the average Aussie realizes our troops were up there with the rest fighting and dying. 
 All Anzac days make you realise how stupid war is.
 A fighting person who goes to war never finishes the war in their heads. 
 Every 80 Minutes some service personal suicides in USA.


----------



## Tink (25 April 2013)

Lest We Forget


----------



## Country Lad (25 April 2013)

We went to the dawn service this morning in a little beachside town called Woodgate, population about 900.  There were over 200 people and no doubt a lot more coming to the 10:00 am service.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## noirua (25 April 2013)

The Hindenburg Line: Breaking the Hindenburg Line | Australian War Memorial
http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/1918/battles/hindenburg.asp

Australians on the Western Front 1914-1918 : The battlefields
http://www.ww1westernfront.gov.au/battlefields.html


----------



## Sean K (25 April 2013)

Very good turn out at North Bondi this morning. Very impressive, from a pretty young crowd. 

Hope everyone has a good day.


----------



## sydboy007 (25 April 2013)

Definitely amazing weather to remember such sacrifices.

I do miss hearing my great grand fathers stories of the tank battles against the Desert Fox. 

If you see an veteran digger today please shake their hand and thank them.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 April 2013)

Haven't seen the Gumnut in a while.  Is he back in the nunnery?


----------



## pixel (25 April 2013)

A Poem Worth Reading

He was getting old and paunchy 
And his hair was falling fast, 
And he sat around the RSL, 
Telling stories of the past. 

Of a war that he once fought in 
And the deeds that he had done, 
In his exploits with his buddies; 
They were heroes, every one. 

And 'tho sometimes to his neighbours 
His tales became a joke, 
All his buddies listened quietly 
For they knew where of he spoke. 

But we'll hear his tales no longer, 
For ol' Bob has passed away, 
And the world's a little poorer 
For a Soldier died today. 

He won't be mourned by many, 
Just his children and his wife.. 
For he lived an ordinary, 
Very quiet sort of life.

He held a job and raised a family, 
Going quietly on his way; 
And the world won't note his passing, 
'Tho a Soldier died today. 

When politicians leave this earth, 
Their bodies lie in state, 
While thousands note their passing, 
And proclaim that they were great.

Papers tell of their life stories 
From the time that they were young 
But the passing of a Soldier 
Goes unnoticed, and unsung. 

Is the greatest contribution 
To the welfare of our land, 
Some jerk who breaks his promise 
And cons his fellow man? 

Or the ordinary fellow 
Who in times of war and strife, 
Goes off to serve his country 
And offers up his life? 

The politician's stipend 
And the style in which he lives, 
Are often disproportionate, 
To the service that he gives. 

While the ordinary Soldier, 
Who offered up his all, 
Is paid off with a medal 
And perhaps a pension, small.

It's so easy to forget them, 
For it is so many times 
That our Bobs and Jims and Johnnys, 
Went to battle, but we know, 

It is not the politicians 
With their compromise and ploys, 
Who won for us the freedom 
That our country now enjoys.

Should you find yourself in danger, 
With your enemies at hand, 
Would you really want some cop-out, 
With his ever waffling stand? 

Or would you want a Soldier-- 
His home, his country, his kin, 
Just a common Soldier, 
Who would fight until the end. 

He was just a common Soldier, 
And his ranks are growing thin, 
But his presence should remind us 
We may need his like again.

For when countries are in conflict, 
We find the Soldier's part 
Is to clean up all the troubles 
That the politicians start. 

If we cannot do him honour 
While he's here to hear the praise, 
Then at least let's give him homage 
At the ending of his days.. 

Perhaps just a simple headline 
In the paper that might say: 
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, 
A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

(author unknown)

Pass On The Patriotism! 
YOU can make a difference

An ANZAC veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank cheque made payable to 'Australia' or 'New Zealand' for an amount "up to and including my life".

That is Honour, and there are way too many people in this world who no longer understand it.

(received by email today and had to share_


----------



## Julia (27 April 2013)

Margaret Throsbie, of Classic FM, in her Midday Interview a few days ago spoke with Dr Brian O'Toole who is conducting a longitudinal study on the effects of war with vets from Vietnam, their partners, and their children.
http://www.abc.net.au/classic/content/2013/04/22/3741060.htm

It's very interesting (available also as podcast, I think) and the conversation is interspersed with Dr O'Toole's choices of music which range from an extract from a Bach oboe concerto to this very funny/sad short song from Tom Lehrer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pklr0UD9eSo

Have a listen.  Only a couple of minutes.


----------



## Calliope (21 April 2014)

How sleep the Brave, who sink to Rest,
By all their Country's Wishes blest!
When Spring, with dewy Fingers cold,
Returns to deck their hallow'd Mould,
She there shall dress a sweeter Sod
Than Fancy's Feet have ever trod.

By Fairy Hands their knell is rung,
By Forms unseen their Dirge is sung;
There Honour comes, a Pilgrim grey,
To bless the Turf that wraps their Clay,
And Freedom shall a-while repair
To dwell a weeping Hermit there.

William Collins 1746


----------



## Tink (25 April 2014)

Lest We Forget.


----------



## pavilion103 (25 April 2014)

Went to my first dawn service this morning. 4:30am rise. Worth it. Something to do at least once.


----------



## sydboy007 (25 April 2014)

pavilion103 said:


> Went to my first dawn service this morning. 4:30am rise. Worth it. Something to do at least once.




If you were at the Martin Place Cenotaph I might have seen you.  Was AMAZED how many people were there this morning.  The coffee shop next to coles was doing a roaring business, as well as Max Brenners.

Pub near work was spilled out onto the st so they had to block 1 lane of traffic.

Was great to see so many families braving the weather to remember.


----------



## pavilion103 (25 April 2014)

I'm in Adelaide.

But yeh would have been huge in Sydney I imagine.

Some great numbers here too this morning. I was surprised at the level of commitment. Good to see kids along too!


----------



## Tink (23 April 2015)




----------



## pixel (23 April 2015)

Where it all began:
St John's in Albany, Western Australia


----------



## Tink (24 April 2015)

Thanks for sharing that, Pixel, I didn't know that it started in W.A.
You always learn something in here.

I saw the website had the original paperwork/notes of when it was done.

Anzac day is a time to reflect and remember them, the sacrifices they made for our country.


----------



## dutchie (24 April 2015)

Be alert and watch our police's back tomorrow.


----------



## pixel (24 April 2015)

Tink said:


> Thanks for sharing that, Pixel, I didn't know that it started in W.A.
> You always learn something in here.
> 
> I saw the website had the original paperwork/notes of when it was done.
> ...




http://www.australiassouthwest.com/experiences/History/anzac



> Anzac Albany
> 
> Albany plays a central role in the ANZAC (Australian and New Zealand Army Corps) legend, being the last port of call for troopships departing Australia in the First World War. Albany was the last place in Australia that the ANZACs saw (and in most cases, ever saw) and is therefore a prominent memorial. The first ever recorded Dawn Service was conducted by Anglican Chaplain Padre White (44th Battalion AIF) on 25 April 1923 in Albany, and has been held ever since with several thousand people participating each year. November 1, 2014 marked 100 years since the largest detachment of ANZAC troops departed Australia, many never to return.


----------



## basilio (24 April 2015)

Watched an exceptional documentary on Anzac  written and produced by  actor Sam Neill. 

Sam comes from a military family and his journey incorprates the fate of three of his relatives. Well worth watching.
ABC Iview http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/why-anzac-with-sam-neill/DO1308H001S00


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 April 2015)

Tink said:


> Anzac day is a time to reflect and remember them, the sacrifices they made for our country.



Running headlong into machine gun fire was suicidal and these poor souls lost their lives over several months in a failed strategy. Those cliffs should have been cleared before the beach landing. They stood no chance.


----------



## Value Collector (24 April 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> Those cliffs should have been cleared before the beach landing. They stood no chance.




If we could change history, the thing to change would have been the European politics that lead to Australian boys being sent to fight Turkish boys in the first place.

Changing any military strategy would result in the same net effect, both sides suffer a loss, all you are doing it adjusting which side takes more casualties, our tribalism means that we would rather see the guys holding the other flag take more casualties, but we have to understand they were just as innocent as our boys. WW1 was a diplomatic failure a lot more than a military one.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 April 2015)

Value Collector said:


> If we could change history, the thing to change would have been the European politics that lead to Australian boys being sent to fight Turkish boys in the first place.
> 
> Changing any military strategy would result in the same net effect, both sides suffer a loss, all you are doing it adjusting which side takes more casualties, our tribalism means that we would rather see the guys holding the other flag take more casualties, but we have to understand they were just as innocent as our boys. WW1 was a diplomatic failure a lot more than a military one.




Yes, the Anzacs were sacrificial lambs to act as a diversion from the real attack. The "convicts" were just fit for cannon fodder according to Churchill and the other elite British commanders, which is why we should never trust their sort again.


----------



## pixel (24 April 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, the Anzacs were sacrificial lambs to act as a diversion from the real attack. The "convicts" were just fit for cannon fodder according to Churchill and the other elite British commanders, which is why we should never trust their sort again.




I received this Ballad from an old mate. Quite timely, and it fits into this topic like fist in glove:

The Old Digger

He was getting old and paunchy
And his hair was falling fast,
And he sat around the R.S.L.,
Telling stories of the past.

Of a war that he once fought in
And the deeds that he had done,
In his exploits with his mates;
They were heroes, every one.

And 'tho sometimes to his neighbours
His tales became a joke,
All his mates listened quietly
For they knew where of he spoke.

But we'll hear his tales no longer,
For ol' Jack has passed away,
And the world's a little poorer
For a Digger died today.

He won't be mourned by many,
Just his children and his wife.
For he lived an ordinary,
Very quiet sort of life.

He held a job and raised a family,
Going quietly on his way;
And the world won't note his passing,
'Tho a Digger died today.

When politicians leave this earth,
Their bodies lie in state,
While thousands note their passing,
And proclaim that they were great.

The Media tell of their life stories
From the time that they were young,
But the passing of a Digger
Goes unnoticed, and unsung.

Is the greatest contribution
To the welfare of our land,
Some smoothie who breaks his promise
And cons his fellow man?

Or the ordinary fellow
Who in times of war and strife,
Goes off to serve his country
And offers up his life?

The politician's stipend
And the style in which they live,
Are often disproportionate,
To the service that they give.

While the ordinary Digger,
Who offered up his all,
Is paid off with a medal
And perhaps a pension, small.

It is not the politicians
With their compromise and ploys,
Who won for us the freedom
That our country now enjoys.

Should you find yourself in danger,
With your enemies at hand,
Would you really want some cop-out,
With his ever-waffling stand?

Or would you want a Digger
His home, his country, his kin,
Just a common Digger,
Who would fight until the end?

He was just a common Digger,
And his ranks are growing thin,
But his presence should remind us
We may need his likes again.

For when countries are in conflict,
We find the Digger's part,
Is to clean up all the troubles
That the politicians start.

If we cannot do him honour
While he's here to hear the praise,
Then at least let's give him homage
At the ending of his days.

Perhaps just a simple headline
In the paper that might say:
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING,
A DIGGER DIED TODAY."


----------



## Atari rose (24 April 2015)

Now I have severed my country, so dont take this the wrong way but..

Completely over this whole ANZAC weekend thing. I do not subscribe to the "gave birth to a nation " moto in fact in reading history it was a complete screw up from the start, I loath Churchill and his plan and if Australia didn't have its head so far up the British ass it would have forced a republic right then and there.....

Today was a complete write off at school they already had the flower laying ceremonially thing on Monday what a 7 year old thinks of putting flowers down and having a minutes silence is beyond my education level, I haven't asked my daughter because I expect not much.

Then today they colored in Medals and watched war on TV????!!!! Complete waste of time and then at Cubs tonight they got to make Poppies?? Nope. Took kid home it seems the entire long weekend is just one celebration/remorse session for a battle that would best be forgotten about. 

I''m all for the dawn service and the March through the streets on the day but it has been getting on for a week already.


----------



## Tink (25 April 2015)

Lest we forget.

_A sea of handmade poppies is cascading through Federation Square after one woman’s tribute to her war-serving father touched hearts all over the world. _

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/enterta...scade-of-poppies/story-fni0fcgk-1227319099588


----------



## pixel (25 April 2015)

Tink said:


> View attachment 62381
> 
> 
> Lest we forget.
> ...





> *Entertainment*
> *Lynn Berry’s tribute to Anzac Centenary transforms Federation Square into cascade of poppies
> *
> Sally Bennett  Herald Sun  April 24, 2015 4:43PM




*Reported under "Entertainment"?* Yeah, right 

Methinks Atari Rose made some very valid points. Less would be more.


----------



## Tink (25 April 2015)

Well I didn't see it like that, pixel.
I saw it as personal stories from each person.

As we pay respects to soldiers that died, fighting and keeping our country safe.
I also thank the security forces that kept Melbourne safe today from any attacks.
The first time we have all been armed up for this day.


----------



## McLovin (25 April 2015)

pixel said:


> Methinks Atari Rose made some very valid points. Less would be more.




+1

It seems like we're seeing the Americanisation of Anzac Day, unfortunately. It's changing from a day of remembrance to a kitsch marketing exercise that leans heavily on patriotism.

Last year someone wished me a "happy Anzac Day".


----------



## Tink (25 April 2015)

It is the 100 year centenary, and no, I don't think it should be forgotten.

Another beautiful service last night before the AFL game, Melbourne vs Richmond, with Ron Barassi, whose father was in the war.


----------



## Logique (25 April 2015)

Most notable this year was that the minute of silence actually lasted for a minute at the MCG.  It had been shrinking for a couple of years.

It's also worthy of note that the NZ national anthem was sung as well as the Australian one.

Anzac Day is the de facto national day for mine, sans the hoons with little flags on their cars, and a tinnie in hand as in January.


----------



## IFocus (25 April 2015)

Massive turn out for Mandurah dawn service


----------



## orr (26 April 2015)

I've attended Dawn services off and on all my adult life, and probably a couple as a child, I cannot for the life of me remember the name of my local federal representative being mentioned at any of these  past services. So it was at yesterday mornings upscaled event that my federal members name was repeated three times during the service; I found it more than curious.
The irony that it is the ineptitudes, vanities and failures of the political class that give us our monumental names etched in granite in their thousands, you'd hope would cower their rapacious egos for at least this  solemn hour. but not this ignominity of human form that disgraced the beach of Cronulla.


----------



## dutchie (26 April 2015)

Logique said:


> It's also worthy of note that the NZ national anthem was sung as well as the Australian one.
> 
> Anzac Day is the de facto national day for mine, sans the hoons with little flags on their cars, and a tinnie in hand as in January.




We had a really big turnout at our local ceremony.

The choir also sang both anthems, in fact, both versions of the NZ anthem.

What surprised me was the silence of all the people around me when the Australian anthem was sung by the choir.

It appeared that I was the only one singing along. I wonder why?


----------



## IFocus (26 April 2015)

orr said:


> I've attended Dawn services off and on all my adult life, and probably a couple as a child, I cannot for the life of me remember the name of my local federal representative being mentioned at any of these  past services. So it was at yesterday mornings upscaled event that my federal members name was repeated three times during the service; I found it more than curious.
> The irony that it is the ineptitudes, vanities and failures of the political class that give us our monumental names etched in granite in their thousands, you'd hope would cower their rapacious egos for at least this  solemn hour. but not this ignominity of human form that disgraced the beach of Cronulla.





No pollies at our service (thanks god) but we did have a Aboriginal smoking service


----------



## dutchie (26 April 2015)

No respect.

SBS reporter Scott McIntyre fired over Anzac tweets 

http://www.news.com.au/national/sbs...ver-anzac-tweets/story-fncynjr2-1227321537612


----------



## Wysiwyg (22 April 2016)

The story of Z beach and the ANZAC's in, Gallipoli from Above : The Untold Story, dispelled all belief I had of a dawn massacre. Truth? Such an abused word.


----------



## moXJO (25 April 2016)

Is sydney morning herald taking a "no war" stance and not printing any anzac news related items?  
Bloody lefty rag.


----------



## Tisme (26 April 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> The story of Z beach and the ANZAC's in, Gallipoli from Above : The Untold Story, dispelled all belief I had of a dawn massacre. Truth? Such an abused word.




I posted a few newspaper articles from the time on the local community facebook site this year It's rather interesting how the news filtered through the London papers (I could understand why Murdoch went to the front). The local input tended to be victim's  families and friends writing verse expressing dislike of the whole goings on.

I can understand the desire to get supply shipping through to Russia from the Mediterranean, but picking an estuary that has a major city full of the enemy at the head of it ain't my idea of smart.


----------



## Tink (26 April 2016)

Lest we forget.

https://www.awm.gov.au/


----------



## Value Collector (26 April 2016)

A tribute to three from our regiment, who gave their everything.

Brett, Rowan and Scott.

"Between spears and enemy"


----------



## SirRumpole (26 April 2016)

Sorry you lost some mates VC.

My condolences.


----------



## Tisme (26 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry you lost some mates VC.
> 
> My condolences.




Yeah that's gotta hurt bigtime VC


----------



## qldfrog (26 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> A tribute to three from our regiment, who gave their everything.
> 
> Brett, Rowan and Scott.
> 
> ...



Vietnam? if I may ask?


----------



## Value Collector (26 April 2016)

Thanks for the kind thoughts guys.





qldfrog said:


> Vietnam? if I may ask?




Afghanistan.

All three were combat engineers, from the Incident Response Regiment / Special operations engineer regiment, working to provide mobility and force protection to special forces groups, which in Afghanistan basically means working in small teams clearing ieds and other boobie traps preventing the Sas and commandos from doing their job, and also providing search capibilites to raids etc.

http://www.army.gov.au/Our-people/U...-Command/Special-Operations-Engineer-Regiment


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> I can understand the desire to get supply shipping through to Russia from the Mediterranean, but picking an estuary that has a major city full of the enemy at the head of it ain't my idea of smart.



In those days it appears to me that a tactic was to throw human bodies at a plan until it succeeded.  

Hey, what a beautiful day it is when true Australians stop and consider the selflessness of those young men and women.


----------



## Value Collector (27 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> I can understand the desire to get supply shipping through to Russia from the Mediterranean, but picking an estuary that has a major city full of the enemy at the head of it ain't my idea of smart.




With the war in Europe a trench warfare stalemate, the plan was to try and have Germany's allies surrender, the ultimate goal was to get battleships within range of the "major city (Constantinople)", and under that threat have them surrender.

So you can't always pick your battles, some times you have to fight the enemy where they lie, and sometimes things don't work out.


----------



## Tisme (27 April 2016)

Value Collector said:


> With the war in Europe a trench warfare stalemate, the plan was to try and have Germany's allies surrender, the ultimate goal was to get battleships within range of the "major city (Constantinople)", and under that threat have them surrender.
> 
> So you can't always pick your battles, some times you have to fight the enemy where they lie, and sometimes things don't work out.




Yeah but the campaign was to get an alternative supply route for the Russian allies. The arrogant Brits/Empire thought they could batter the place with gun ships, but a month before the Anzacs landed the Canadians found themselves neutered when confronted with 100,000 of the Sultan's troops dug in on the Dardanelles ...it was never going to be a walk in the park. The futility is the 7 month failed engagement.


----------



## Craton (27 April 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> The story of Z beach and the ANZAC's in, Gallipoli from Above : The Untold Story, dispelled all belief I had of a dawn massacre. Truth? Such an abused word.




Amazing story and about time truths came out.
Also saw Sam Neill's ANZAC legend story which I thought was good viewing too: http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/why-anzac-with-sam-neill/DO1308H001S00



Value Collector said:


> A tribute to three from our regiment, who gave their everything.
> 
> Brett, Rowan and Scott.
> 
> ...




There is no higher honour than life in service of our great country. Deepest sympathy and respect VC. 



Wysiwyg said:


> In those days it appears to me that a tactic was to throw human bodies at a plan until it succeeded.
> 
> *Hey, what a beautiful day it is when true Australians stop and consider the selflessness of those young men and women*.




Not to detract from ANZAC day, that beautiful day can only occur with the inclusion and full acceptance of our indigenous brothers and sisters as true equals, only then we can call ourselves truly Australian. So many of us have been screaming out for it since the May 1967 referendum.

More than 1,000 aborigines (many of them volunteers) fought in WWI but once the war was over... well 'nuff said: https://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/aborigines/indigenous/


----------



## Tink (25 April 2017)

Lest We Forget.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-25/anzac-day-2017-live-blog/8468162

https://www.awm.gov.au/


----------



## dutchie (25 April 2017)

Could not make the dawn service this year.
Respect to all the diggers, male and female, who served and are serving now.

Lest we forget.


----------



## Tisme (26 April 2017)

Who forgot to get Yassmin Abdel-Magied's permission to remember the ANZACs and fallen on the 25th instead of Muslims stuck in detention camps?

For goodness sake when will we learn the correct way to bow and grovel to immigrants' wants and needs.


----------



## Craton (28 April 2017)

Starting after attending the Dawn Service, this year my pillion and I attempted an IBA SS1600K (min of 1,610km in 24hr) to honour our fallen.

Our route looked at lot like Google Maps

To accummulate enough kilometres we needed to add the "corners" of Port Pirie, Mannum and Swan Reach in Sth Aust and Buronga in NSW. We then rode our way across three states to spell out ANZAC by using the first letter of a postcoded location and to add some "interest", ANZAC must be spelt in the correct order.

Auburn, SA
Nurioopta, SA
Zadows Landing, SA
Angaston, SA
Cadell, SA

We also visited and photographed as many War monuments as time would allow along the way. Wow!
I must have watched too many war themed movies/TV over the years because during the ride, as my thoughts turned to those (including my dearly departed Dad) who gave us this most wonderful lifestyle; the sounds of war, exploding bombs, gunshots and ricochet plus the shouts, yells, screams of men at war was ringing most loudly in my ears.

As befitting for a ride on such an auspicious day, the last 300km was ridden in the most appalling dismal, cold, wet and windy conditions. Thus under the rules of this ride, with very little time to spare and again with dawn breaking, we completed the IBA ANZAC Day Ride

Ride report and certificate pending.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 April 2017)

Well done Craton, a fitting tribute to our servicemen and women.


----------



## Wysiwyg (29 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> Who forgot to get Yassmin Abdel-Magied's permission to remember the ANZACs and fallen on the 25th instead of Muslims stuck in detention camps?
> 
> For goodness sake when will we learn the correct way to bow and grovel to immigrants' wants and needs.



http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...e/news-story/40e327b0de2d66b1c687c29faceb8f6c
Seems Yassmin has a growing distaste of Australia. 

From Yassmin's viewpoint you are racist. Yassmin has written a piece for American Teen Vogue to air her distaste of Australia. People in Australia see through her facade and she is obviously still smarting from the attention she received in response to het ANZAC day comments. Her story mentions how racist Australia is using Adam Goodes as an example. 







> Ms Abdel-Magied also went on to detail how Australia is associated with “kangaroos and great beaches” — but it also has a “deeply racist history”.





> She mentioned the attacks retired Sydney Swans player Adam Goodes suffered at the end of his AFL career.



If we remember the truth of the Adam Goodes incident ....


> Goodes led the goal scoring for the Swans in their 15.12 (102) to 8.7 (55) triumph, but *he was the victim of a racial vilification incident after being verbally abused by a Magpies supporter* in the final quarter.
> 
> *A female fan wearing a Magpies jumper was escorted from the venue late in the match.* Goodes, with security staff around him, had stood only metres away and pointed to her following the verbal clash with the fan.



So Adam was angered by a 13 year old girl who called him an ape. W.T.F. In the history of sport no fan has EVER sledged a player let alone a small girl toward a large human bean?
So Yassmin pitches in  a lie to strengthen her case?

Yassmin with my bold,


> “I thought if I were good enough, my example would make people see that their assumptions about Muslims and people of colour were wrong,” she wrote.
> 
> “Once they got to know me, *they would change their behaviour and fix their biases*, I thought.




From this I can see she needs people to change for her. Australia needs to accomodate her religion and associated beliefs. Oh and the colour issue is her favourite leverage tool. I am sure there is a place in the world where she can rule over a kingdom and have everyone kissing her arse.  It isn't Australia.


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## Tisme (23 April 2018)

Lest We Forget:


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## Tink (25 April 2018)

Lest We Forget.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-...memorations-underway-across-australia/9694142

https://www.awm.gov.au/


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## Tisme (25 April 2018)

In the guise of doing my community duty this morning, after laying a wreath on the memorial at the dawn service, I was really impressed by the very large crowd and number of children present. Makes you feel like this country has still got some of its priorities cemented.

Give a passing thought to what a great bunch of people we are to produce outstanding bravery on the battle fields for right. 

I did give thought of thanks for you being a credit to our country too V.C.


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 April 2018)




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## SirRumpole (25 April 2018)

Tisme said:


> In the guise of doing my community duty this morning, after laying a wreath on the memorial at the dawn service, I was really impressed by the very large crowd and number of children present. Makes you feel like this country has still got some of its priorities cemented.
> 
> Give a passing thought to what a great bunch of people we are to produce outstanding bravery on the battle fields for right.
> 
> I did give thought of thanks for you being a credit to our country too V.C.




+1

Shall we also share a thought of contempt for politicians who send our forces into deadly danger on  false pretexts or to protect other country's empires or is that not appropriate today ?


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## greggles (25 April 2018)

Catherine Deveny doing some attention seeking and self promotion by bashing Anzac Day and our armed forces.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...s/news-story/2e24934b4f29f9bf2137cd4096c1eed1

For a comedian, she's not very funny.


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## Knobby22 (25 April 2018)

greggles said:


> Catherine Deveny doing some attention seeking and self promotion by bashing Anzac Day and our armed forces.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...s/news-story/2e24934b4f29f9bf2137cd4096c1eed1
> 
> For a comedian, she's not very funny.



She's not a comedian. She if paid to create controversy and interest. She probably doesn't agree with what she writes. Artificial crap.


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## greggles (25 April 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> She's not a comedian. She if paid to create controversy and interest. She probably doesn't agree with what she writes. Artificial crap.



These toxic attention seekers only come out from under their rocks when they want to fling excrement. Deveny and Yassmin Abdel-Magied are like forum trolls, just stirring people up so that others will notice them. Then the media, looking for a story, gives them the attention that they crave.


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## basilio (10 May 2018)

Just watched a two part  series on Sir John Monash on ABC.  Clearly written and produced for the 100 year commemoration of the end of WW1.

Brilliant, quite challenging story of the war, the critical role of John Monash in winning WW1 and what happened to the soldiers when they returned home.  What was equally fascinating was the role of the narrator  Peter Greste. He brought two additional  threads to the story

1) He had been imprisoned in Egypt on trumped up terrorism charges. He had first hand experience at fighting for freedom and facing the consequences.
2) In the process of making the film Peter discovered he had 4 Great-Uncles who had fought in WW1 under Sir John Monash.  What had their war been like ?

Really worth watching and reflecting on our history and  what we need to remember.

______________________________
_
I wonder if we will ever see programs like this again if the ABC is  properly gutted by the Libs? Which commercial entitities would ever produce such a story and tell it in this way ? 
_
https://iview.abc.net.au/programs/monash-and-me/DO1600W001S00
https://tvtonight.com.au/2018/04/airdate-general-monash-and-me.html


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## Value Collector (24 April 2019)

There are many soldiers walking on two legs today, that owe life (or limbs) to those soldiers that walked on four.

From Simpson’s donkey and the light horse, to pigeons carrying life saving messages to explosive dedection dogs finding road side bombs.

LEST WE FORGET.


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## wayneL (25 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> There are many soldiers walking on two legs today, that owe life (or limbs) to those soldiers that walked on four.
> 
> From Simpson’s donkey and the light horse, to pigeons carrying life saving messages to explosive dedection dogs finding road side bombs.
> 
> ...



Yes, we're wearing red and purple poppies today.


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## Skate (25 April 2019)

The high cost of War..







*61,720* Australians lost their lives in WW1

*39,429* Australians lost their lives in WW2

*520* Australians lost their lives in the Vietnam War

A sobering reminder, so that we don’t forget.

*“Lest we forget”*

Skate.


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## chiff (25 April 2019)

I have  a plaque in my garden ,made by an uncle ,which says Militia 1939 etc.When he got back from the islands in 1945s he was subject to some of the experimental medical treatment....made him impotent amongst other ailments.He died in 1983 aged 63.I still have his heavy army coat.
Anyone see the Peace Institutes built as local halls after the first world war?Came across an abandoned one on a backroad in SA.


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## IFocus (25 April 2019)

Went to the Mandurah service this morning massive turn out

"Lest we forget"


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## Sdajii (25 April 2019)

ANZAC day becomes more ironic every year.

"Lest we forget"

Considering everyone has forgotten what they were fighting for or even who they were fighting, it's so strange to say 'Lest we forget'.

Most Australians now stand against what they died for!


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## wayneL (26 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> ANZAC day becomes more ironic every year.
> 
> "Lest we forget"
> 
> ...



I've been dying to make this very comment, well said.


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## Brickie2 (26 April 2019)

Skate said:


> The high cost of War..
> 
> View attachment 94062
> 
> ...



You can add 346 killed in Korean War 1959-1953, 281 are buried in the Pusan War Cemetry.
Often called the forgotten War.


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## IFocus (27 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> ANZAC day becomes more ironic every year.
> 
> "Lest we forget"
> 
> ...




Both grandfathers fought in France WWI, 4 uncles WWII brother in-law Vietnam

I haven't forgotten and I don't stand against what they fought for clearly you are unconnected or fail to understand Australian culture.


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## Value Collector (27 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> Considering everyone has forgotten what they were fighting for




I am not convinced that the soldiers themselves knew. 

————
I have become a bit cynical about ANZAC Day myself.

To me it’s a sad day of reflection.

But the cynical side of me see’s the glorification of the soldier, and the way (especially in a America) military service is held in such high regard eg allowing soldiers etc to board planes first and other such public displays, as not really a way to show respect for that soldier, rather I see it as making sure soldiers are looked up to.

It’s a way to make sure young idealistic men who want to earn respect of peers and their family will continue enlisting.


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## Sdajii (27 April 2019)

IFocus said:


> Both grandfathers fought in France WWI, 4 uncles WWII brother in-law Vietnam
> 
> I haven't forgotten and I don't stand against what they fought for clearly you are unconnected or fail to understand Australian culture.




You really are a galah. At least you know it.




Value Collector said:


> I am not convinced that the soldiers themselves knew.
> 
> ————
> I have become a bit cynical about ANZAC Day myself.
> ...




It's an interesting question, how much they understood what they were fighting for. I think most had some idea though. Primarily that battle and war was about the British empire (back then Australians were still very loyal to the motherland) and race had a lot to do with it back then too - the keep Australia white policy was very much alive and well at the time, officially and unofficially.

I'm not exactly taking a side either way on whether what they were fighting for was good or bad; soldiers have fought for their countries or empires since countries and empires existed, sometimes willingly, sometimes by coercion or manipulation. That's a separate (and very interesting) issue, but what I'm saying is that it's ironic for people to say 'lest we forget' when they have forgotten what it was all about, and it is especially ironic for people to say it when they do not even share the ideals. I think if we're going to commemorate history, we should understand it in its true context. I suppose the next war isn't far away now (looking at the insanity in the world today, it's difficult not to have some awareness that many people psychologically need that shake up... it's a sad state of affairs), and it will bring some big lessons for the survivors, which can be forgotten at some point after we die, which will perhaps be shortly before the next big one.


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## Knobby22 (27 April 2019)

They are like us. Complex reasons for doing anything.
Keeping our way of life, many were Union members winning the 40 hour week and 4 weeks holiday. 
Anzac day is Australian not American and as such is about Rembrance. If you ever attend a dawn service you will realise this.
I had 3 great uncles in WW2 and I can tell you they never talked about it.
I was quite upset about the comments and those agreeing with them.
The far left and far right have a lot in common.


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## Sdajii (27 April 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> They are like us. Complex reasons for doing anything.
> Keeping our way of life, many were Union members winning the 40 hour week and 4 weeks holiday.
> Anzac day is Australian not American and as such is about Rembrance. If you ever attend a dawn service you will realise this.
> I had 3 great uncles in WW2 and I can tell you they never talked about it.
> ...




You're partly right about it not being about Australia. Bizarre that you would feel the need to point out it's not about America!

Originally it was to commemorate the ANZAC (Australia and New Zealand Army Corp) slaughter, but yes, it has since been broadened. Sort of inappropriate to keep the name ANZAC Day with that being the case, but whatever. If they wanted to scrap ANZAC Day and replace it with a more broad and deliberately vague 'war is bad, let's just focus on acknowledging that people died in war and that's sad', it would be fine.

What you are saying is either naive or disingenuous. Every ANZAC Day we are told that they (the ANZACs) gave their lives 'for us' so that we could 'have this way of life' or 'They died for our freedom'. The focus is usually on the ANZACs and what they supposedly died for, which is becoming increasingly nebulous. When I was a little kid in school we learned about it pretty much as it was (They died for the empire, they were loyal to the crown, they didn't want the empire, including Australia, to be invaded and taken by foreigners, etc), but now people talk about 'our freedom' (which makes no sense) and I heard a surprising number of people this year talking about them having died for freedom of speech!

Yes, officially it is now said to be about all people who have died in all wars. But clearly this is not the original story, or the story as most people understand it, or what it is still literally named after. I am sure if we are not kidding ourselves, most people still think 'lest we forget' refers to the ANZACs and what they died for. If not, it has had a vague and gradual shift over the years which is fundamentally antithetical to the notion of 'lest we forget'!


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## Value Collector (27 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> It's an interesting question, how much they understood what they were fighting for. I think most had some idea though. Primarily that battle and war was about the British empire (back then Australians were still very loyal to the motherland).




I certainly believe they thought they were fighting for Australia and the motherland.

But, That’s not really what WWI was even about, it was a complicated mess that even is debated to this day as to what started it.

It was very much akin to a footy brawl where what the fight is about is not really known but you start punching the others guys and their friends just because.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I certainly believe they thought they were fighting for Australia and the motherland.
> 
> But, That’s not really what WWI was even about, it was a complicated mess that even is debated to this day as to what started it.
> 
> It was very much akin to a footy brawl where what the fight is about is not really known but you start punching the others guys and their friends just because.




WW1 was a complete waste of time and lives and we shouldn't have become involved.

Britain was not at risk, but maybe British pride was at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives.

'Footy brawl' is a very apt description imo.


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## Sdajii (28 April 2019)

I don't exactly agree, but if you want to say they fought for nothing (it's not what they'd have said at the time, but yes, more than anything they'd have been told 'do it for England' or something roughly equivalent so you could sort of make the point), then it makes it even more ridiculous to be grateful to the ANZACs for their sacrifice which has allowed us 'what we have today', because according to you, their deaths were actually just completely meaningless not just in outcome but in the very initial intentions before their deaths occurred.

Again, this begs the question of what we are supposed to not be forgetting when we say 'lest we forget'. You can not deny that different people would have different guesses as to what it was and that those guesses have changed over time, which means we obviously haven't remembered, which makes it an incredibly ironic thing to be saying. The day literally doesn't even have the same official meaning as it originally did.

I can't say lest we forget because most of us forgot long ago, but I do encourage people to actually learn the history and discover what it is 'lest we forget' originally referred to.


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## bellenuit (28 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> Again, this begs the question of what we are supposed to not be forgetting when we say 'lest we forget'.




Isn't "lest we forget" referring to not forgetting the people who sacrificed their lives rather than not forgetting the cause they fought for? Whether the cause or causes that were fought for are seen retrospectively as worthy or unworthy, as least those who fought did it because they were asked to do it and it is their sacrifice we should not forget.


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## Sdajii (28 April 2019)

bellenuit said:


> Isn't "lest we forget" referring to not forgetting the people who sacrificed their lives rather than not forgetting the cause they fought for? Whether the cause or causes that were fought for are seen retrospectively as worthy or unworthy, as least those who fought did it because they were asked to do it and it is their sacrifice we should not forget.




So this requires or at least allows us to completely forget about the history which may help us going into the future, and simply to remember the fact that people died and perhaps to be sad about it?

If we take this approach, it is no less ironic, and arguably much more so. Being sad about something which happened, saying lest we forget, but completely forgetting what caused, why it happened, and how it can be avoided in the future. The irony here is that while saying lest we forget, we are forgetting the very things which may be of value to us. We are causing the deaths we mourn to be in vain, through our mostly willful desire to forget, while saying lest we forget!

I completely agree with the actual meaning of 'lest we forget'! There are a lot of important lessons we are forgetting! How ironic to say lest we forget on a day commemorating events we have forgotten, to our detriment!


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## bellenuit (28 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> If we take this approach, it is no less ironic, and arguably much more so. Being sad about something which happened, saying lest we forget, but completely forgetting what caused, why it happened, and how it can be avoided in the future.




But your question was what *lest we forget* refers to. The people attending the ceremonies are clearly thinking of their fallen friends and relatives. They carry old photographs or memorabilia of their loved ones or old comrades. One never hears the cause being discussed or the, in most cases, futility of it all. 

Discussing and arguing the reason they all died is a different matter. Of course that should be discussed and argued about so that we learn from history. But at ANZAC commemorations it is not the place to do it. There are plenty of opportunities to discuss that aspect if one chooses to do it.

I recall years ago slogans being painted on commemorative sites just prior to ANZAC day decrying the glorification of war. They were so far off the mark when it came to what was being commemorated.


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## Sdajii (28 April 2019)

bellenuit said:


> But your question was what *lest we forget* refers to. The people attending the ceremonies are clearly thinking of their fallen friends and relatives. They carry old photographs or memorabilia of their loved ones or old comrades. One never hears the cause being discussed or the, in most cases, futility of it all.
> 
> Discussing and arguing the reason they all died is a different matter. Of course that should be discussed and argued about so that we learn from history. But at ANZAC commemorations it is not the place to do it. There are plenty of opportunities to discuss that aspect if one chooses to do it.
> 
> I recall years ago slogans being painted on commemorative sites just prior to ANZAC day decrying the glorification of war. They were so far off the mark when it came to what was being commemorated.




I agree with you about what people attending ceremonies who have lost loved ones are thinking about. They are primarily thinking about those loved ones, and for many of them, little else. I am not arguing with you there.

Most people don't attend the ceremonies, most discussions on ANZAC day backyard BBQs, social media, workplace discussion and school assemblies the day before, etc etc are not about that though. You're right about what you say about the actual ceremonies, and it's important we don't confuse each others' words about referring to something other than what they do. I am talking about how most people view it, which is very different from the views of the majority of the type of people who make the effort to attend a dawn service every year. I am not such a person, and most of the people I know have only been to one or two, many have never been to one, I think I've personally only been to two. Of the few friends I have who do attend every year, I think all of them agree very much with my thoughts about this and related issues, although some of them have further thoughts I don't agree with all of, though I respect their thoughts.

I also completely agree that ANZAC Day is not about glorifying war, I don't think many people have that misconception, and while I have met a very few idiots who think that's what it is, I've certainly never personally come across or known of anyone actually using ANZAC Day to glorify war. Only a few idiots think that's what it's about. That type of idiot does have a tendency to be very vocal and active unfortunately, as in the terrible example you mention.


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## SirRumpole (28 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> Only a few idiots think that's what it's about.




I met some ex servicemen on forums who have that view.

That ANZAC day is some sort of recruitment drive by the Armed Forces, and that they themselves would be able to forget one day seeing their mates heads blown off .


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## Sdajii (28 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I met some ex servicemen on forums who have that view.
> 
> That ANZAC day is some sort of recruitment drive by the Armed Forces, and that they themselves would be able to forget one day seeing their mates heads blown off .




That's sad. I'm not surprised to hear that such people exist, but I'm sure they're not proportionately common.

It's difficult to see anything about ANZAC Day in any context which is actually set up as a recruitment drive. It's always a sombre affair. There will always be a few exceptions to any rule when it comes to people and their points of view.


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## Value Collector (29 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> That's sad. I'm not surprised to hear that such people exist, but I'm sure they're not proportionately common.
> 
> It's difficult to see anything about ANZAC Day in any context which is actually set up as a recruitment drive. It's always a sombre affair. There will always be a few exceptions to any rule when it comes to people and their points of view.




I don't believe it was "setup" as a recruitment drive, but if you don't think that public displays of adulation and a culture of respect for service men past and present helps boost future recruitment, you are crazy.

I can honestly say, that having grown up seeing the extent that my family held military service in such high regard, and seeing the crowds line the pavement each year to wave at the soldiers wearing medals on Anzac Day marches was a major contributing factor to my teenage self wanting to join the Army.

Not to mention that younger soldiers look up to their older more experienced colleagues walking around with a chest full of medals want that for them selves.

I can remember being quite young, probably 7 or 8 and seeing the Vietnam Vets etc on ANZAC day wearing their medals and thinking to myself one day I would like to go to war and some medals and march in parades etc.

fast forward 30 years, and I have my medals, But I don't wear them they are in an old ammunition tin in my cupboard, nor do I march in any parade.

I am not against others wearing their medals, I just don't feel the need, for me as I said its a sombre day, and I feel wearing the medals would be drawing attention to myself.


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## Value Collector (29 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> I don't exactly agree, but if you want to say they fought for nothing (it's not what they'd have said at the time, but yes, more than anything they'd have been told 'do it for England' or something roughly equivalent so you could sort of make the point), then it makes it even more ridiculous to be grateful to the ANZACs for their sacrifice which has allowed us 'what we have today', because according to you, their deaths were actually just completely meaningless not just in outcome but in the very initial intentions before their deaths occurred.
> 
> Again, this begs the question of what we are supposed to not be forgetting when we say 'lest we forget'. You can not deny that different people would have different guesses as to what it was and that those guesses have changed over time, which means we obviously haven't remembered, which makes it an incredibly ironic thing to be saying. The day literally doesn't even have the same official meaning as it originally did.
> 
> I can't say lest we forget because most of us forgot long ago, but I do encourage people to actually learn the history and discover what it is 'lest we forget' originally referred to.




If anyone is interested, here is a video breaking down the factors that lead to WW1, it shows exactly how complex the issue was, and how it really had nothing to do with Australia or Britain.


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## Sdajii (29 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I don't believe it was "setup" as a recruitment drive, but if you don't think that public displays of adulation and a culture of respect for service men past and present helps boost future recruitment, you are crazy.
> 
> I can honestly say, that having grown up seeing the extent that my family held military service in such high regard, and seeing the crowds line the pavement each year to wave at the soldiers wearing medals on Anzac Day marches was a major contributing factor to my teenage self wanting to join the Army.
> 
> ...




Well said, I agree entirely.


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## wayneL (29 April 2019)

For me its complicated.  I've never served,  but my Dad did in ww2 in the British Army, was severely injured and hated Rememberance and ANZAC day. 

It wasn't because of the war, he wanted in on it, it was their treatment afterwards. His medals are at the bottom of the Atlantic somewhere between the UK and Canada.

But, I absolutley honour what he (and so many others) did,  ANZAC day being a proxy for that. 

I don't go to the Dawn service because I invariably lose the plot,  and being an old fashioned sort of guy, it embarressing for me. 

Instead, I stay home,  think a lot, pray a bit (and get stuffed if you think that's stupid), and try not to cry. Mostly, I stand in awe, because I don't know how I could ever have that courage.


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## Knobby22 (25 April 2022)

Big turnout at the Shrine of Remembrance in Melbourne. 
50,000+, MSO, choir, bagpipes.

Moving. Good to be there with my son.


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 April 2022)

Lest we forget.

gg


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## wayneL (25 April 2022)




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