# On the verge of opening an underground fund



## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Sup people, as the title suggests im in the process of possibly collecting small bits of funds from a group of friends/associates as well as my own in order to create a pool of money to hopefully generate some returns. I have no license etc and I realise that there are regulations etc to protect investors. My question is can I still trade the capital of investors if they are willingly handing over momey knowing full well or the risks involved etc. Im planning on parterning with partnering woth a very good friend who is in his last year at uni studying law so he is responsible for drawing up legal  contracts to protect our selves from being sued etc. I realise I can keep it low profile and get away with it but I plan to target bigger investors through networking. Can I be banned from managing money permanently by doing this. Is there loop holes to managing peoples money with out licenses. This is not the definition of free markets. To many damn regulations...

Thanks (looking forward to the negative feedback as well haha)


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## minwa (23 July 2014)

I think you can manage family and relative's money (not sure about friends), up to a maximum of a million dollars legally for them.

But one pool of money together is just asking for trouble - unless they give it to you without any legal claim on it and just taking your word that you will return it. I'm sure people do it and get away with it. But if you're one of the few unlucky ones that do get caught, you will be in pretty serious trouble. 

I am not so sure about relying on a fresh graduate who's never practiced in the real world to keep your asses safe in something this complicated. 

Do you have a few profitable years of returns to attract investors ? If you can show you have a history of consistent profitability going down the legal route and getting licensed will be worth the trouble in the long run.


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## Tyler Durden (23 July 2014)

How exactly are you planning to generate returns with the money?

Also, I think mixing money with friends is a baaaad idea.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

I have ZERO real world trading experience haha. My goal is to collect only 500-$1000 of each friend.  I some times post graphs on my fb wall and the idea came to me when my friends girl friend (so she thinks she is haha) offrred me $500 to trade. Initially my response was there is no way in hell that you can ever beat the market woth such low capital. Anyhow people just ask me for advice (not that I would recommend it haha). So my idea was to be able to pool these funds together enabling them to have a low risk investment and enabling me to generate enough funds to make ot feasible to trade. Now my main plan is to generate 15-20% returns with as minimal draw downs as possible. Risk management is my main focus. I plan on tapping into my friends networks who are rich asian uni students ( no offence to asians, my aunty is chinese haha). My business partners friend's dad sent him $1m for him and his brother to buy a house. If I ca  tap into these networks the fund can boom. Atm im honing in on twitter/tesla/facebook. Tesla and facebook are in an intermediate uptrend if not primary uptrend. However twitter is the best pick. If the earnings result tomorrow if its tmw goes good I rekon it csn double in a few months. Anyway the point is trade maybe 2/3 times a year when all probability lines up in my favour with precise entry points and extremely high return/risk ratios. Its a risky avenue to try to pursue this, I might damage friend ships etc but this could potentially be a game changer for me. I dont know of any one personally who trades so I basically have a huge marker to myself and I want to make money for my potential clients. The best part would be if I could generate profits for my clients. Its mutually beneficial. If I can take a thousand dollars of a 100 people or 10k of 100 people is my first real goal. For now its about generating 10-20k, showing a consistant return no matter how small then pitching it to potential rich boy gamblers who are not associated to the mafia etc haha. By the way im not an optimistic person in general. Im more of a pessimistic person and I realize that the chances og getting this rolling are fairly small and even smaller to get decent returns but im dedicating my life to trading now till I die so I hope im not a sheep and like to believe I can be a contrarian when it comes to trading haha.


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## Junior (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> So my idea was to be able to pool these funds together enabling them to have a low risk investment






darkhorse70 said:


> Now my main plan is to generate 15-20% returns with as minimal draw downs as possible.






darkhorse70 said:


> extremely high return/risk ratios. Its a risky avenue to try to pursue this




There are some inconsistencies in your game plan here.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

The only inconsistency there is is the 15/20% return and thats assuming that you cant generate that without low risk which you probably could. A high risk low return set up is low risk. I can risk a dollar for 10 or 10c for a dollar. Haha thats why I got a lawyer as a partber. He can concentrate on the writing part. Plus in reality the people I know are **** money managers. They will blow it on cheap thrills. These are the people who pay 500 dollars to go to a dance festival, take 10 mdma tablets and pay two hundred for a damn ticket. Atleast with me they got a chamce in hell haha.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Sorry high return low risk.]


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## prawn_86 (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Atleast with me they got a chamce in hell haha.




This is not going to end well for anyone involved, yourself included.

You, yourself not your lawyer partber, should write a detailed business plan in the first place, one that you would be comfortable presenting to a potential 'investor' here on ASF for example. If you cant do that then you shouldn't be managing other peoples money even if they are stupid enough to give it to you


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## Vixs (23 July 2014)

Assuming you even make any money and don't lose all of your investor's funds, the return on whatever money you're managing is not going to be enough to warrant running an unlicensed, unregistered managed investment scheme.

Assuming you do lose investor's funds and they want it back, you're 100% screwed and likely to see the inside of a cell. Up to 5 years and $22k fine for the unregistered scheme, and up to 2 years and $22k fine for operating a financial services business without an AFSL.

Don't know what kind of FUM and what kind of fees you'd be targeting, but I sure hope it will compensate for work done plus lost earnings while in prison and permanent damage to employment prospects!

Maybe stick to saving and building up your own account for the time being darkhorse70 - it seems a recurring theme is under-capitalisation. These things take time, in the meanwhile continue to invest in your earning potential.


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## Julia (23 July 2014)

prawn_86 said:


> This is not going to end well for anyone involved, yourself included.
> 
> You, yourself not your lawyer partber, should write a detailed business plan in the first place, one that you would be comfortable presenting to a potential 'investor' here on ASF for example. If you cant do that then you shouldn't be managing other peoples money even if they are stupid enough to give it to you



+1.  haha.


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## Value Collector (23 July 2014)

Is this a joke?

I think it might be a joke,


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## VSntchr (23 July 2014)

Get some results. Track your results and show us some metrics. What do you expect a bunch of people on the internet to say when you ask if you can manage other people's money when you have "zero real world experience".

This idea needs more MUCH more planning and refinement before you can even think about implementation.


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## skc (23 July 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> I think it might be a joke,




+1. And a pretty bad one at that. 

Where's that face palm emoticon...

Found it.


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## skyQuake (23 July 2014)

Vixs said:


> Assuming you even make any money and don't lose all of your investor's funds, the return on whatever money you're managing is not going to be enough to warrant running an unlicensed, unregistered managed investment scheme.
> 
> *Assuming you do lose investor's funds and they want it back, you're 100% screwed and likely to see the inside of a cell. Up to 5 years and $22k fine for the unregistered scheme, and up to 2 years and $22k fine for operating a financial services business without an AFSL.*
> 
> Don't know what kind of FUM and what kind of fees you'd be targeting, but I sure hope it will compensate for work done plus lost earnings while in prison and permanent damage to employment prospects!




The part in bold should be your primary concern. They can also try to sue u for fraud if things don't work out.

If you wanna break into trading/investing, play with your own money first.

The percentage of traders who have blown their acct early on in the careers is exceedingly high.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Prawn I am going to make a 'business plan'. Its going to be one month worth of your so called business plans with legal contracts etc. We are actually going to base our structure or ideas by looking at the way other funds operate. And how am I going to jail. Im going to video record every deal, clearly outline the risks and all that bs which im not going to outline because this is just a summary. And if I do face court ill tell the judge that this is no democracy. Stuff all your regulations and bs tapes. If an individual cant freely hand over his money to some one and is clearly aware of all the risks and assuming the manager of the money was operating under the best intentions of his clients then this aint a just system. I got to go to uni and get these licenses through these business mediums (or however its spelled) while they make a tonne of money. How is that democracy. I understand in some industries like doctors/engineers etc u should be qualified but heck you get these 25 year old shmucks who have all these degrees but dont know what the hecl they are doing. Plus thats why my friends going to get his finance license if it gets to a point while I operate in the back. Theres always a way around. If a bank robber gets 15yrs but a CEO who conned billion gets 2years then hell the systems broke eitherway haha. You crack me up Julia. If im in my 50's sitting on a stock forum and lets assume youve been trading for a decade or two and you are chatting on a forum on a regular basis. If im at that caliper in 20years ill retire from this industry and walk away in shame. If youve got time to make posts at 12pm then clearly youve got to much time on your hands. One last thing, I only asked if its possible etc. I dont cae about your doubts, maybe you got no guts but thats your problem. I dont want to get a bias opinion or negative thoughts to confuse me when im on a path which I can see clearly. Im only asking for the technical stuff and not about if u think I can succeed or not. I go over that a million times in my head daily. And dw in 30 years time I can assure you ill be a trader, 10 times your caliber. Good day haha


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Its only a joke till its reality brother. I will have the primary stake in the fund.


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## DeepState (23 July 2014)

*Term Sheet*

Manager: DarkHorse Asset Management Netherlands (hereafter "DAMNED")

Fund: DarkHorse Quantum Emergence I
         "Physics states that particles appear within a total vacuum.  Why not money?"

Investment Approach: TBA

Objective: High return, Low risk

First Close: TBA

Historical Audited Performance Composite: Confidential

Principals (Years with firm/Total Industry Experience): 
DarkHorse70, Founding Partner. Zero Real Life Investment Experience
Unnamed Partner, Founding Partner, Final Year University Student - Law.
Combined investment experience (yrs): Zero

AFSL: Not available - Underground fund.

Minimum Investment: Negotiable

Target Funds: $1bn, with potential for a subsequent $1bn at manager's discretion

Lock-up: At manager's discretion.

Legal Jurisdiction: Not Relevant - Underground Fund.

------

The above is actually what your business looks like right now. Just saying...


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## prawn_86 (23 July 2014)

As i thought, quite obviously a troll.

I will leave this thread open for laughs


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## McLovin (23 July 2014)

darkhorse, will you be contributing any of your own money or are you still looking for your dirtbike?


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## Craton (23 July 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Is this a joke?
> 
> I think it might be a joke,




From the tone of darkhorse70's posts, one would have to agree. 



> darkhorse70
> Re: On the verge of opening an underground fund
> Sorry high return low risk.]




Not so u/ground by posting here hmmm?

High return/low risk. Sound familiar? Haha indeed!


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## Value Collector (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> . If you've got time to make posts at 12pm then clearly you've got to much time on your hands.




Well if you ever do become a skilled investor, You might also get to the fortunate position of having time on your hands.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Mclovin actually I just bought a ktm 250 2t, it hauls ****.. Some people need to try it on here to grow some peanuts haha. It was never a troll. I didnt ask you on your opinion on wether the business will succeed or not. Clearly some of u are very gd at that seeing the vast fortunes you have gained. Why do you think im startong with a hand full of mates and if the results are good then you take the next steps.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Actually the most successful traders have the least time on their hands. Not that you would know hahaha]


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Is there any body on here with real info regarding the matter if its possible who can pm me? Will apprecite it heaps. Never really understood how people could be prikks in life haha.


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## Vixs (23 July 2014)

prawn_86 said:


> As i thought, quite obviously a troll.
> 
> I will leave this thread open for laughs




It's just a lot of attitude, bravado and very little experience. It goes back to the 'Who to open an SMSF with for an $8k account' thread where he wanted to trade his mum's super because he doesn't have capital of his own yet.

@darkhorse70, "If an individual cant freely hand over his money to some one and is clearly aware of all the risks and assuming the manager of the money was operating under the best intentions of his clients then this aint a just system."

Maybe ask your mate how the legal system works. Even better, take a business law and ethics subject yourself so you don't have to bother him. You can have good intentions and still be a total destructive screw-up. You talk about your investors being 'aware of all the risks' - mate you clearly don't understand the risks yourself. The point of having Product Disclosure Statements is so that your investors can compare your offering to others on a like-for-like basis, and in doing so become 'clearly aware of all the risks'.

Maybe when you get started you'll learn that above-average returns don't grow on trees, so until then it's probably a good idea to pull your head in and do some reading.


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## Vixs (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Is there any body on here with real info regarding the matter if its possible who can pm me? Will apprecite it heaps. Never really understood how people could be prikks in life haha.




You've received real info. 

If you want to trade your mates money under the table, give them your BSB and account number, get them to put it in your brokerage account and go wild. Maybe keep an excel spreadsheet with who invested in the first place so you can work out who the 2 cents in the dollar that's left when you're done should go back to.

Putting any more work into it than that is a waste of your time, because it's still illegal and you're still running the risk of fines and jail.

If you're wondering how people could be 'such pricks' with their responses, maybe you should try acting more like someone that wants answers and less like a stooge.


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## Value Collector (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Actually the most successful traders have the least time on their hands. Not that you would know hahaha]




Actually I said Investors, not traders.

And to me the point of financial freedom is to have the time to do what you want. 

My investments take relatively little time to manage and that is with a couple of million dollars of capital, and I have a hunch that they probably will out perform your "Underground fund" at least until your have learned what you don't know.

I am not trying to put you down, we all started from very little, I am just cautioning you that there is a lot you don't now, and your bravado will see that you will make big losses, it's much better you just work with your own money.



> I just bought a ktm 250 2t, it hauls ****.. Some people need to try it on here to grow some peanuts haha.




Cool, I own over $100K worth of shares in the company that distributes KTM, thanks for the support


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## DeepState (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Is there any body on here with real info regarding the matter if its possible who can pm me? Will apprecite it heaps. Never really understood how people could be prikks in life haha.




You might be able to do it from an offshore location where investors come to you and you do not sell this *** to anyone within the Australian jurisdiction whilst standing on crown land.

From around eleven years ago, the cost in Cayman for a simple fund was around USD $100k. They just pull this stuff off the shelf.  Yours might need some magic, so the cost might be a bit higher. I am out of date with Cayman regulations, so you'll need to get your partner talking with some international law people who are good at this stuff. However, you can basically avoid the need for licensing as a investment (ahem) organization if you can wangle applications to come in as blocks of CI$80k (AUD104k). This might be possible via various means technically...good luck in raising AUD104k given the kind of money you are talking about and defraying the cost of establishment which is normally passed back to the unit.  Alternatively, it is absorbed by you. In other areas, it turns out Netherlands is a route through which you can funnel assets.  Well I'll be DAMNED.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Since then i have started working 7days a week. Actuallymy dads in the process of creating his self managed fund. Hopefully he will be letting me control 10k of it. Who truly understands risk. The big shot traders who blow billions. Not many ppl do. Ive been reading on stocks for a year now. True experience is where its at. I cant blow up the account, it would be very hard. Maybe a 20-30% loss and off a grand thats 200-300.  No body is going to cry for that. And just the fact that its other peoples money gives me the feeling off extra responsibilty and guilt hence id think twice before getting in a position.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Retired young. Thanks man haha. That could be possible avenue if (and I say if knowing that I got a 1% chance of success) if it came to the point where it was worth it. I told my friend to speak to people in the industry. Network. Get info from pro's. If I have a lawyer in the firm its the best thing that can happen cost wise haha. Obviously im going to have to carry the firm and I only want to focus on the trading aspect. Its a project. A very serious one and thats how I plan on approaching it. People on here expect me to write a 300 page document explaining it and thats going to be my friends job.


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## kid hustlr (23 July 2014)

Think people are overreacting a touch.

I mean obviously there's a massive chance he loses the lot but if were are talking about a few k between mates then so what. Agree with the poster who suggested keeping the spreadsheet to track who and where the funds go and performance but anymore than that for this small time gig is irrelevant imo.

I lol'd hard @ the " I own that company thank you" comment btw.


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## Value Collector (23 July 2014)

kid hustlr said:


> I mean obviously there's a massive chance he loses the lot but if were are talking about a few k between mates then so what. Agree with the poster who suggested keeping the spreadsheet to track who and where the funds go and performance but anymore than that for this small time gig is irrelevant imo.
> 
> .




It just brings up so many questions, like who's name is the trading account in, who pays tax on the profits, or in the short term who claims the deductions on the losses, Is their anyway for the profits or losses to be passed back to the "Investors" tax return.

Are you only wanting investors because you don't have enough capital? Just work and save, It shouldn't take that long to build you capital up.


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## Ves (23 July 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Cool, I own over $100K worth of shares in the company that distributes KTM, thanks for the support




Would it be AHE?   If it is, would be interested to hear your thoughts on that company some time in the stock thread...


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## Value Collector (23 July 2014)

Ves said:


> Would it be AHE?   If it is, would be interested to hear your thoughts on that company some time in the stock thread...




sure is


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## McLovin (23 July 2014)

DeepState said:


> You might be able to do it from an offshore location where investors come to you and you do not sell this *** to anyone within the Australian jurisdiction whilst standing on crown land.
> 
> From around eleven years ago, the cost in Cayman for a simple fund was around USD $100k. They just pull this stuff off the shelf.  Yours might need some magic, so the cost might be a bit higher. I am out of date with Cayman regulations, so you'll need to get your partner talking with some international law people who are good at this stuff. However, you can basically avoid the need for licensing as a investment (ahem) organization if you can wangle applications to come in as blocks of CI$80k (AUD104k). This might be possible via various means technically...good luck in raising AUD104k given the kind of money you are talking about and defraying the cost of establishment which is normally passed back to the unit.  Alternatively, it is absorbed by you. In other areas, it turns out Netherlands is a route through which you can funnel assets.  Well I'll be DAMNED.




You should be able to do it in Australia. I don't think you need a license for <20 investors, or if you're investors are sophisticated/wholesale (which I doubt is the case for the OP). The quickest way to set it up is through a nominee company with each contributer signing a declaration of trust. It's not an overly complex process, but you'll need a half decent lawyer who is familiar with such things, ie Dennis Denuto out in the suburbs is probably not going to have a clue about it. A nominee company is usually cheaper to run that a unit trust; a unit trust being the other logical alternative.

The OP needs a lawyer. I might also suggest he needs this...

http://www.cgu.com.au/insurance/Business/Products/Professional-Indemnity



			
				kid hustlr said:
			
		

> I mean obviously there's a massive chance he loses the lot but if were are talking about a few k between mates then so what.




At 21, a few k between mates is probably a fair bit of money, especially if they're students. People get funny when it comes to money. I reckon if you're going to manage your friends' money then you need to be prepared to not just lose their money but their friendship.


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## Vixs (23 July 2014)

McLovin the nature of it sounds like carrying on a financial services business anyway - inducing clients to invest, using systematic, repetitive or continuous actions in the course of carrying out the business etc etc.

I'm not terribly familiar with any circumstances where he could be managing investments and not be running a Managed Investment Scheme due to size or nature of the investors - certainly the people he is talking about would be retail, not sophisticated/wholesale investors. There may be provisions for it but you'd think it would still fall under needing an AFSL.

There certainly are a lot of hurdles to jump before you can manage other people's money - if people can't commit to getting established how much buy in do they really have in looking after other people's funds?


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## DeepState (23 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> You should be able to do it in Australia. I don't think you need a license for <20 investors, or if you're investors are sophisticated/wholesale (which I doubt is the case for the OP).




That's actually my understanding too, but I was scared off by Ves' incarceration scenarios!  Easier to run off to Cayman.  I understand that <20 is viable under private placement memorandum without the preparation of disclosure document. There is a limit on the number of people you can solicit from as well.  All the PPMs I've seen were numbered and our names recorded as recipients. Here's the link explaining it.  

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Raising+funds+in+Australia?openDocument

As to avoiding an AFSL, DH70 can achieve this by becoming an Authorised Representative of some organization that has this sorted.  Getting an AFSL as a fund manager is upwards of $60k.  As a result, fledgling fund managers often piggy back off those who have already gone through it.  Gaining an Authorised Representative status requires the AFSL holder to ensure that their representatives are suitable and competent.  That could be a show stopper on this occasion.

Here is the relevant clause:




So, the local way of achieving the 'desired' outcome is to get some sucker/scammer with an AFSL already in place to whack you on the register as his Authorised Representative, prepare some cut down doco and market it to only 20 people and raise less than $2m.  I do not know if this requires a registered trust to house the investments.  I think you can get around it by being an 'adviser' or something like that as opposed to the RE and Manager of a registered unit trust. Dunno, but this is achievable in one way or another.


All that failing, here is the exemption from Australian law, in terms of requiring an AFSL, if you were to set up shop in Cayman and investors miraculously turn up to ask you to manage their money as per prior post:





Any way I look at this gambit, as the barest minimum, the scale required is an order of magnitude (maybe three) higher than what DH is considering.


Perhaps DH should consider another line of work.  This guy invested $20 and grossed over $8k in one night, having the time of his life whilst at it.  Further, he got a place in Princeton University:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-NTjcutYbYhtJ2/risky_business_1983_ending/


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

is is my 3rd time writing this post, kept freezing loll. Value collector ktm is a good brand so im all for it haha. Im planning on using other peoples momey because a) it provides more capital b) minimizes my own risk which is just a fact and c) I want to eventually own my own fund so it would be a good starting point/learning curve as well as give me some clarity in my direction in life. As kid hustlr said it was meant to be among a small group of friends with the possible potential of eventually going big. Im a realist and maybe it just sounds like im being a wish full thinker but believe me I know the odds are heavily against me for any kind of success in this endeavor. Mclovim,vixs and retired young thanks for the info. Hopefully an AFSL isnt the only option or else it will be a big buzz kill. Haha and about opening a fund in cayman island etc there isnt money to throw around haha. Like I said me and my friend have to exhaust all avenues once he comes back from his skiing trip and we will try to talk to a lawyer or some one to see what can happen. If friend ships end so be it. I only have 2-4 real friends and the rest are there for entertainment reasons. Maybe I can say that the money was a gift and they acknowledge that hahahaha then im not liable. Obviously only real close friends would do that and only for small sums of money. Thanks for the info anyway. Ill keep use updates or maybe not since it is probably illegal which I fail to understand why. How is this democracy haha


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## So_Cynical (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Sup people, as the title suggests im in the process of possibly collecting small bits of funds from a group of friends/associates as well as my own in order to create a pool of money to hopefully generate some returns. I have no license etc and I realise that there are regulations etc to protect investors. My question is can I still trade the capital of investors if they are willingly handing over money knowing full well or the risks involved etc.
> 
> Thanks (looking forward to the negative feedback as well haha)




I looked into this a decade and a half ago (things may have changed) (and this is not advise ) but the way i remember it, an individual can approach 20 people/organizations for funds without a prospectus or licence but cannot advertise or make promises of any kind, however they are libel for any verbal or written contract and libel for returns that do not meet expectations...something like that.

Similar to setting up a syndicate perhaps or perhaps a share punters club structure? :dunno: but you cannot advertise, in order to ask people for money you have to already have some.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Oh ok thanks cynical. 20 people is more than id expect to contribute. Maybe 5 for now. Hopefully that option is still available. Ill also juggle around clients, set rules for lock in periods etc just to prevent destabalisation etc. Thanks for the reply


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## Vixs (23 July 2014)

Every which way you look the risks exceed the rewards, basically. Welcome to Australia


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## pinkboy (23 July 2014)

Ill bite.  Take me on as your first client, Ill give you $100k that I want you to make 20% return on in 12mths.*

*Keeping in mind if you dont return the desired 20%, I can get you whacked for $5k


pinkboy


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Haha vixs every step you try to take forward you get kicked 5 steps back. Haha pinkboy its a deal.


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## cynic (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Oh ok thanks cynical. 20 people is more than id expect to contribute. Maybe 5 for now. Hopefully that option is still available. Ill also juggle around clients, set rules for lock in periods etc just to prevent destabalisation etc. Thanks for the reply




The destabilisation issue may be bigger than you realise. I'm no expert in law, but from what I've observed in Australia, circumstances of hardship, or perhaps even failed domestic relationships, can result in claims that supercede many of the contractual clauses that one might have in place.

However, given your enthusiasm for this endeavour, I believe this will prove a valuable and educational experience for yourself and your friends.

Edit:My last comment was intended to extol the benefits of education in the "University of Life" a.k.a "School of Hard Knocks" and was not intended as an appraisal of the financial prospects of the venture.


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## Craton (23 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> *People get funny when it comes to money*. I reckon if you're going to manage your friends' money then you need to be prepared to not just lose their money but their friendship.




Even went it's all down in black and white! It's all bed and roses until someone loses (or feel they've lost out) then the true colours come out. 

So sad but oh so true and for the tiniest amounts too. Spoken from experience.


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## McLovin (23 July 2014)

DeepState said:


> That's actually my understanding too, but I was scared off by Ves' incarceration scenarios!  Easier to run off to Cayman.  I understand that <20 is viable under private placement memorandum without the preparation of disclosure document. There is a limit on the number of people you can solicit from as well.  All the PPMs I've seen were numbered and our names recorded as recipients. Here's the link explaining it.
> 
> http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Raising+funds+in+Australia?openDocument
> 
> ...




Cheers, RY.

The grey area for me seems to be that while this is a MIS, it is not required to register because of the limited size. A requirement of registration is holding an AFSL, but I can't find anything that says not being a registered MIS removes the requirement to hold an AFSL. So it's really just an assumption on my part. And when you assume you make an ass of u and me.


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## So_Cynical (23 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Ill also juggle around clients




I don't think clients is the right word, because you cant "sell" them a product and probably cant sell them a service.

:dunno:


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## Junior (23 July 2014)

Craton said:


> Even went it's all down in black and white! It's all bed and roses until someone loses (or feel they've lost out) then the true colours come out.
> 
> So sad but oh so true and for the tiniest amounts too. Spoken from experience.




Also agree, spoken from experience on both sides of the equation.

Life's too short to be taking big risks with your mates' money.  Especially if you only have 2-4 real friends.  You should try and keep those ones.


----------



## DeepState (23 July 2014)

McLovin said:


> Cheers, RY.
> 
> The grey area for me seems to be that while this is a MIS, it is not required to register because of the limited size. A requirement of registration is holding an AFSL, but I can't find anything that says not being a registered MIS removes the requirement to hold an AFSL. So it's really just an assumption on my part. And when you assume you make an ass of u and me.




Geez this is hilarious. But I'm l(Mc)Lovin this because this was kind of what it was like when we got off the ground. All angles were examined etc.  Except we had a little bit of expertise.  Anyway, DH70 has no cash to establish an MIS.  You also need to get an RE, sort out custody and get a unit pricing registry etc.  If before was a challenge, this will blow it further into the ground/stratosphere.

Please see the attached http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Managed+investment+schemes?openDocument
.  It highlights that he can buy/sell shares directly for his clients as previously mentioned.  This obviates the need for an MIS in any form.  These are termed 'segregated accounts' and all that is required is an Investment Management Agreement and they are off to the races, ponies whatever the f... He's up and running.  He can source pro-forma IMAs from IFSA just like an insto (http://www.fsc.org.au/standards-guidance/standard-investment-management-agreements.aspx).


So, to get up and running DH70 or one of his shady mates needs to:

1. Become an authorised rep of some shadier organisation who has an AFSL.
2. Prepare a PPM.  That might be as long as a 10 word sentence.  "I am good. Give me money. Good luck with that." A short form PPM might be "Gimme money"
3. Market to less than 20 friends in a 12 month period
4. Turn down any accounts or otherwise scale back existing accounts that may bring Quantum Emergence I over the $2m mark, at least for twelve months.
5. Have each of his stupid, shady mates establish an IB or Comsec account.  Sign an IMA with names filled in from the IFSA pro-forma, ensure he has access to their accounts.  
6. They deposit their commitments.
7. He proceeds to lose their money.

This is real.  It can be achieved with very little money if the AFSL license holder is not extortionate.  This can be done.  In fact, this is how to do it. DH70 was not completely nuts to dream big.  He can actually become a hedge fund manager with $1000 and be within the law.


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## Vixs (23 July 2014)

DeepState said:


> Geez this is hilarious. But I'm l(Mc)Lovin this because this was kind of what it was like when we got off the ground. All angles were examined etc.  Except we had a little bit of expertise.  Anyway, DH70 has no cash to establish an MIS.  You also need to get an RE, sort out custody and get a unit pricing registry etc.  If before was a challenge, this will blow it further into the ground/stratosphere.
> 
> Please see the attached http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Managed+investment+schemes?openDocument
> .  It highlights that he can buy/sell shares directly for his clients as previously mentioned.  This obviates the need for an MIS in any form.  These are termed 'segregated accounts' and all that is required is an Investment Management Agreement and they are off to the races, ponies whatever the f... He's up and running.  He can source pro-forma IMAs from IFSA just like an insto (http://www.fsc.org.au/standards-guidance/standard-investment-management-agreements.aspx).
> ...




With PI premiums and the political and regulatory environment as they are you'd have to be a special kind of insane to be giving auth rep status to stuff like this at this stage


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## DeepState (23 July 2014)

Vixs said:


> With PI premiums and the political and regulatory environment as they are you'd have to be a special kind of insane to be giving auth rep status to stuff like this at this stage




Vixs, You are thinking like a reasonable, informed, experienced and rational person.  In the extremes of physics and finance, those laws don't apply.  It's a hit rate thing..fire enough bullets and you'll eventually find that numbnuts. It only takes 1:badass:

....and that 1 almost certainly exists.

:1zhelp:


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## PFWM2B (23 July 2014)

Ah OP, I take you were joking about tapping into the Asian college friends' network & get some investment funds? 
The reason of Asians mainly Chinese pouring into Australian market is the property purchase restriction that had been going on for some time & the current trend of house pricing going down. When the riches are restricted from owning 3rd & 4th & 5th property, and also they don't see any potential near term value increase, they've shifted the focus to overseas. But weather they'll hand you the money, that's another story. From personal experience, there's a lot of underground private money lending going on in more developed cities in China, with some interest rate @ around 10%. What makes you think the Asian riches would authorize you to invest their money at potential 10  - 20% return, when they can make a solid 10% interest income every year from well known network. Sorry if it sounds a bit cruel. All the best with your business idea though.


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## KnowThePast (23 July 2014)

DeepState said:


> *Term Sheet*
> 
> Manager: DarkHorse Asset Management Netherlands (hereafter "DAMNED")
> 
> ...





This is brilliant, RY!


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Cynic, thata good to know about the destabilisation thing. I just dot down ideas in my journal and will look into all of it one at a time.  Haha cynic it will be a life lesson. Thats for sure haha. Haha craton. Junior I said I have 2-4 gd friends. Only one will be on board and he is the other. My potential clients are my big hand full of 1st cousins of whom two are semi interested. The others are just friends you say hi n bye and have a laugh atm. This is not going to be a friendship thing, purely business and ill make that clear to them. No hard feelings.l but yes I know it could back fire big time in friendship status. Ive come to the conclusion that friends change all the time and they are hardly ever a constant thing. Now family is the greatest connection to me anyway. Haha cynical call it what you want haha im creating wealth or transferring it into their account I hope haha.retired young thats good to know apart from getting a afsl I think its doable. Illl have to dig deep into my connection of shady mates to pull one out of the hat for this. What shady mates haha? Most of my friends contribute to the growth of this society. I have two groups of friends. The ones who value education and the ones who dont. But they both have there benifits haha. Hopefully ive learnt alot from my paper trading, my numerous pages of entry logs, many hours of going through the same and dofferent charts and trying to visualise the different svenarios the stock might take and having some sort of idea about the bigger picture of the market / potential distribution phase which I believe is going to happen to direct me in sme sort of correct-ish path. We all start from the bottom julia. In your theory then why start at all. Yes I might lose the money of others, but thats the risk they took. In the end they get what they paid for. A cheap thrill and maybe a meal ticket. One things for sure they got a hella lot more chance of success with me then on their own with no idea about the markets. My cousin told me what should I invest my momey in. I told him I can advise you etc but then im practically managing it for him so it should be under my control to cut the risk etc asap instead of it dropping 20% then he calls me telling me what should I do. That way I can profit to if I give good advise. Just like one of the big time traders who was given $50000 by a commodities trader when he was only in his 20's with no experience. He took it, lost 80% but rebounded and his career took off. In your theory he should of walked away. He took some ones money and his career was born. PFW im serious about the asian connections. For example my friends korean friend was born here. His dad works in korea with some top government job. Anyway his dad and mum  ve there but hes raised here. His dad sent him a million bucks to buy himself a house. His roomate also has 345k in his bank acc and his only 21. My point is these asians are loaded and the asians I know have a gambling tendency. I have asian friends who dump 10k down the pokies. With abit of persuasion and imagination I can easily paint them a nice picture. Im not saying con them. I wouldnt dare pitch it to them till I was getting constant results. Im just saying there is potential for possible capital resources IMO a  and its better than them dumping it down the casino. It was just a possible avenue of the time came where I knew what I was doing to a high degree.


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## darkhorse70 (23 July 2014)

Oh and by the way I just love arguing. Not in that sense but I always challenge ideas, comments and I view it as a good thing. I figjt my points, if im wrong I learn some thing new. But yes I can be stubborn or bias which is never good. I dont want to be blinded by emotion but rather be rational


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## Faramir (23 July 2014)

Hi Darkhorse70

Everyone who has commented are people I respect and admire their contributions. They are right when they raised the issues of you falling out with your friends. I believe that they are right with the many issues they have raised.
Anyway, why am I commenting? It is not likely you would take any notice from a beginner.

Good luck. I hope you will report in three, six or twelve months time and tell us your progress.

PS: I like motorbikes as well.


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## darkhorse70 (24 July 2014)

Faramir im not arguing their points. The question was never about my trading skills, how it could effect relationships etc, it was purely about a structure of a possible business. They are two completely different barriers. If I offered any one on this forum $10million to trade my account and they could charge a fee on profits im certain every one would take up the offer even if they werent confident in their rltrading skills. To them 10k is nuthing but to me its a big figure and a way to jump start a possible career oppurtunity. When uou look at in terms of risk and possible jail/fines you qs the oppurtunity hence why I created the thread for advice haha. Thanks. In all honesty the people who say will give some capital are probably going to back out. Talks cheap but atleast ill create a business plan and some type of goal while I save up to start trading which will be in the nxt few months hopwfully.


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## pinkboy (24 July 2014)

Boy I hope you're ugly!

Pretty kids don't do so well in jail!

pinkboy


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## darkhorse70 (24 July 2014)

Hahahaha pinkboy, theres always a way roybd the system if u dig deep enough. If goldman sachs can bet against its own clients and get away in some fashion the  we all can haha.


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## Value Collector (24 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> . If goldman sachs can bet against its own clients and get away in some fashion the  we all can haha.




Well, your not "Too big to fail", and you don't have access to their lawyers.


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## ROE (24 July 2014)

DH70 maybe you should team up with  shezian from shares vs properties thread


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## Julia (24 July 2014)

ROE said:


> DH70 maybe you should team up with  shezian from shares vs properties thread


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## cynic (24 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Hahahaha pinkboy, theres always a way roybd the system if u dig deep enough. If goldman sachs can bet against its own clients and get away in some fashion the  we all can haha.




Errmmm. Have you seen the film "Too big to Fail"?

Unlike Goldman Sachs, you're not big enough to hold the entire Western Economy (and hence the authorities) to ransom!


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## DeepState (24 July 2014)

> Too big to Fail




Actually, DH70's greatest defense is that he is "too small to bother with".  And...in reality, that is a pretty strong defense.


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## brty (24 July 2014)

DH,
Let's assume you and your friends find $10k to start this venture, with the set up along some suggested posts earlier.
What will be your first investment? How much of the $10k will you put into it? What are your profit and loss levels for it?
Just interested.

brty


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## darkhorse70 (25 July 2014)

Haha I was kidding with the goldman sachs thing. I was just watching a doco about it so I just said it for the laughs. Brty well atm I was honing in on twitter/tesla and facebook. Actually uve had my eyes on them for about 2 months. Fb was trading at around 60$ then I think tesla was around the 200 mark and twitter was some where in the 30s. Im not saying ive made a correct analysis but they are all in an upward trend. Twitter is my best pick atm just because its halved in price since about may or so. Cant fully remember. The point was I felt as though the drop was fueled by hysteria and also the ipo rule which let internal shareholders sell out exacberated the situation. After hitting close to its ipo price its rebounded broke that downtrend with bullish volumes. My firt target for twitter is around 46$ / 50s and eventually 70 (all time high). I always go back to the basic question which regards supply and demand. Is this an accumilation phase or distribution. Atm it looks as if the demand is soaking up the waves of supply at resistancw points if not in the first attempt then the second. I believe twitterR/R is superior compared to fb and tesla. Also it doesnt have as much outstanding shares as fb and its relatively cheaper which attracts more potential traders investors. My overall picture of the general markets is skeptical. Its been 5 years since the bottom, QE is wrapping up, interest rates are near the bottom, the governments of the US are maxxes out, the markrts are abiut 20-30% above their previous high (US). So what I believe on my hands is potential bear market around the corner. Hence im waiting on the sidelines for some sort of confirmation. If I did have money id most likely go all in on twitter depending on the earnings result. If its positive and confirmed by volume ill go long at important pivot points. However im really waiting for god shorting positions in general. Since ill be trading american markets my stops will have to be a bit wider (the brokerage fees will kill me if not). I rekon the US markets have better liquidity and better oppurtunities imo (more volatility). Ive realised im not a good day trader, I start to go nuts because of the manic depressive state it puts me in. My favourite book is market wizards because its got alot if goood points which ill try to incorporate in my trading. Mainly dont think about making money and be defensive. Just strike at the perfect time. Perception is reality and if I pretend like im  a calm amd collect, cool header trader. If I use that as an alter ego it could help me be less impulsive. As for risk management I might risk 3-5% per trade when I have a high conviction of the trade going my way. Honestly I feel as though trading is an art and it hardly ever goes as planned so I dont know what will happen. Hopefully this bull market continues. From what ive read alot of successful traders had luck of the markets at their hand when they first started which gave them enough time to learn before the hard times struck. This is just a summary of my trade but atm I feel like my analysis on my 3 chosen prospects have been acting the way I wanted them.


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## darkhorse70 (25 July 2014)

Oh yeah and one of my main points on twitter was that who ever held on to twitter must have had some iron guts. They didnt get shaken out, maybe it was big imstitutions. Hence unless it kept going south violently there would be very little supply. I also believe they are absorbing the demand and will plan to distribute some time in the future. Im just trying to be a good tape reader and get a sense of whata going on in the back scenes. Im not really interested in fundamentals. I believe volume and price action cam paint the whole picture and honestlt I failed accounting thrice hahaha .


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## darkhorse70 (25 July 2014)

This forum is intimidating for noobies. Imo it intimidates noobs because of the vast amoubt of knowledge the veterans have. They put up threads which I can barely understand. Imo it makes others feel like if they cant ubderstand it how in the world are you ever going to succeed in trading. But I believe trading can be simple and understanding the basics can take you far. With a combo of discipline,risk management and some basic tape skills and good luck it can happen.I say this because there have been alot of well known famous traders who all made it young. They didnt know half the things this forum talks about. Im not saying its not usefull but I dont discourage myself by all the threads being posted.


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## explod (25 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> This forum is intimidating for noobies. Imo it intimidates noobs because of the vast amoubt of knowledge the veterans have. They put up threads which I can barely understand. Imo it makes others feel like if they cant ubderstand it how in the world are you ever going to succeed in trading. But I believe trading can be simple and understanding the basics can take you far. With a combo of discipline,risk management and some basic tape skills and good luck it can happen.I say this because there have been alot of well known famous traders who all made it young. They didnt know half the things this forum talks about. Im not saying its not usefull but I dont discourage myself by all the threads being posted.




Good post.  Always listen but knoq how to follow yourself.

I still love mulling over William GANN who created point and figure charting and traded off seasonal trends. 1940s i think.

Probably off topic but just wanted to clap and say "keep it simple stupid " is the way.


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## Craton (25 July 2014)

DH70, haha indeed!

Your last few posts make far better reading, good analysis and fair point re. noobies. Just remember that we all started out as a noob too you know, but starting is better than not starting.

FWIW, I started with a mere $3.5K a little over 15yrs ago, was a renter with only that as savings. That investment has allowed me to own outright my PPOR and much, much more.


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## Julia (25 July 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> This forum is intimidating for noobies. Imo it intimidates noobs because of the vast amoubt of knowledge the veterans have. They put up threads which I can barely understand.



Perhaps think of it a bit differently.  It's not the forum that's intimidating, is it?  Rather the realisation that there's a great deal to be learned before becoming even half competent.

All of us who have been using markets for a few decades also knew next to nothing when we started.  I'd even say that I've learned more from people on this forum in the last ten years than I knew in all the time prior to becoming a member.

I think you will find that, if you ask what you want to know politely, don't go round making insulting assumptions about people etc., most members here will be more than happy to try to help.  That has certainly been my experience.  

Try understanding how it comes across to others that a very young person, no real life financial experience (and that's not a criticism, just a reflection of where we all were once), proposes some scheme which is more than likely illegal and - in light of the inexperience - likely to fail.   We've all seen it before:  mighty aspirations which quickly fall apart, taking friendships and trust with them into the rubble.

Wouldn't it seem more logical to use your own real money to do some actual investing/trading to demonstrate whether you do have the extraordinary skills you believe you have?
If anyone asked me to invest/trade with their money I wouldn't consider it for a second.  Neither would I give my money to anyone, even those here who I know are skilled traders, to trade on my behalf, any more than I'd give it to a licensed fund manager whose results often do not justify the fees they charge.

But then, I'm careful, and risk averse.  You might be some wonder whizzkid who can do what almost no one has done before.  If that's what you believe, then good luck.  The line between self-belief and delusion can be slight.


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## pinkboy (25 July 2014)

Thats A+ from Julia.

pinkboy


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## darkhorse70 (25 July 2014)

Thanks explod, craton. Julia I understand every thing u just said and I couldnt agree more. I dont think im an exception to the rule and I dont believe im more talented then any one else. I never insult people. I only say stupid stuff when im attacked. The matter of trading and opening a possible fund are to totally different subjects. Maybe I should have put up a different title some thing like requirements of opening a small capital fund. Your are right about theres a great deal to learn but my point is how much is necessary and how much is just "junk" (it could aid your trading but is not the key driver). I just scratch my head when a 20 something year old makes a fortune and I doubt that they had that many things to learn. It was knowing a few basic rules very well imo back in the 80s etc. Maybe the markets have changes. Say I wait till I know the amount of knowledge you have. Im going to have to study the markets for a decade or two. Even then can I manage to get great returns constantly. Can I trade like a pro. Its my opinion hence that trading is more of a learn the necessary stuff (the basics), create or adopt some important trading rules and start. How ever that may be. People go in business all the time. If a VC loses money he accepts it and walks. I hope that people who come to me of it ever gets that far understand my abilities and ill male that clearer than day light. Im not a con man and never have been. Instead of encouragement and guidance, if your attacked for having big ideas realistic or not I dont see how that is productive. Im young and still have alot to learn in alot of things. Even pros make mistakes but thats how you learn. I dont know I have faith that I can succeed if I dont sucumb to human flaws like emotion. Thats where I could come undone but why would I give up a possible great oppurtunity sides if theres any time in life when you can rebound from potential failure its when you are young with no family or liabilities. I live with my parents and I have no real demands. I can be fully committed. Either way I  come in peace haha.


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## darkhorse70 (25 July 2014)

Plus if things are just rolling. Your getting a big dream and its piecing together its a great drive. You start working harder. You start to believe it can be dome. When you trade a small account slowly, the bhzz eventually dies out like everything. I believe. So feed your dream. Do what you got to keep you motivated to go forward. To make your hunger bigger.


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

My friend came up with this simple contract. As for how much capital is going to be generated atm its only $1000 by one friend if that. Ive also come up with a semi business plan but for me this is a fun project I can undertake with my friend and learn at the same time. Im going to have about $10000 by the end of the month of my own money but if some friends wish to contribute im happy to take their money if they understood all the risks etc. I just attatched a photo of the legal contract my friend came up with.

We are not sure if its a binding contract since the legal system can possibly over rule it in an instant haha. The contract is more to show our friends that we are acting as ' professional' as possible and take this seriously. Any thoughts on the contract. Its not fully done yet, its a working progress.


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

Im probably incriminating myself by creating this contract as it is proof of the existence of a business which is not accepted by law but I want to act as legit as possible. This person investing her money with me is not really aware of the financial markets etc and probably not the brightest when it comes to maths. Shes a woman by the way haha (no offence). I dont think she even understands the fact that if your capital base is so small, it really isnt even worth it. Im not sure what shes expecting even though the business plan goes through all that etc. Maybe she might build confidence in me, later down the track if all goes well. As i stood in my friends home, discussing the contract etc, we were laughing and saying isn't this how things start. To friends together, having a vision and it slowly starting to take form. We shall see what happens.


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## pinkboy (14 August 2014)

Even verbal contracts are enforcable by law, so dont think for a second that something like this isnt a biding agreement.

You need way more details.

What happens if you go bankrupt, divorced, incapacitated, death - now or in the future in this contracted period?

You're treading a fine line.


pinkboy


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## trainspotter (14 August 2014)

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Certificates+issued+by+a+qualified+accountant

Go and do some research before you do some damage


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

Hmm pinkboy, Ill have to add those stuff to then. Ill just tell my friend that we should consider those stuff. Ill just give him points and hell expand on it etc. As long as I have limited liability, then thats the main issue solved. As i said this is nuthing serious yet. Its all going to be traded off a personal account. Not even registered as a business yet. I doubt my profit will even exceed the first tax bracket.

haha trainspotter. I think im going to have to get in touch with a family friend. His a multimillionaire maybe has like 30+ Million. Maybe I can ask him to please speak to his lawyer etc for some sound advice. All these government websites are mumbo jumbo to me. I just want to know the quickest, easiest avenue to set some small thing up, where i can manage my friends money, a small sum if it came to that level without any issues.

We cant ride dirt bikes on tracks, we cant have paintball guns, we cant even protest, a cop can pull you over and search you with no reasonable evidence. What a load of rubbish. All these rules, restrictions, minimum wages, taxes, rules and regulations are sickening. 

My dad had 30% share in a company and his scum bag partner liquidated the whole company and kept all the money. Lawyers con every one, and its hardly even clear if we will get our money back. Democracy, justice, not even close hahaha.


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

I wish I lived in the 70's. Just start a business, pay your tax, try to be honest and go home. The system tries to bury you today before you have even tried to put one step out.


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## trainspotter (14 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> haha trainspotter. I think im going to have to get in touch with a family friend. His a multimillionaire maybe has like 30+ Million. Maybe I can ask him to please speak to his lawyer etc for some sound advice. All these government websites are mumbo jumbo to me. I just want to know the quickest, easiest avenue to set some small thing up, where i can manage my friends money, a small sum if it came to that level without any issues.




If you can't understand this:-



> Generally people buying securities and other financial products must, under the Corporations Act 2001(the Corporations Act), be given a regulated disclosure document such as a prospectus or product disclosure statement. However, the Act has some exemptions from these requirements.
> 
> One of those exemptions is the offering of financial products to a person (either a natural person or a legal person) who is the subject of a current certificate from a qualified accountant certifying they have a prescribed net asset or gross income level.
> 
> ...




I hope they have internet access for you in the big house and Bubba treats you well.


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## pinkboy (14 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Hmm pinkboy, Ill have to add those stuff to then. Ill just tell my friend that we should consider those stuff. Ill just give him points and hell expand on it etc. As long as I have limited liability, then thats the main issue solved. As i said this is nuthing serious yet. Its all going to be traded off a personal account. Not even registered as a business yet. I doubt my profit will even exceed the first tax bracket.
> 
> Dont worry about adding them, they were there to prompt you not to get involved.  You have ALL the liability in an illegal enterprise - its not even an issue.  Do you actually need to feel the pineapple in your @$$, because you cant imagine it?
> 
> ...




I would seriously be considering trainspotters advice.

I hope you aint pretty.....because they love pretty kids in jail!


pinkboy


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

So by your rational, it makes sense that i can go and dump my whole house down the pokies with no disclosure from my accountant saying im a smart investor or what not but I dont have the right to give money to a friend or to who ever I like to trade for me. In reality its in the interest of the fund to succeed where as its in the interest of a gambling firm to see you lose. So i cant see the rational in this legal system and how they think these rules are ' FAIR'

What horse cr&p.

Whats that latin saying buyer beware. Thats your problem. The buyer should exercise caution when giving their money out. But it shouldnt be like you need a license to trade other peoples money or you are going jail. Maybe if you want to be a doctor or engineer. But no way not for trading or managing some ones money. 

I will go the legit route when i can. At the moment, its not an option. No money and i dont even believe in this education system. Its just a fraud and day light robbery. You should be prosecuted only if you deliberately con your share holders, or operate under other assumptions other then maximizing share holder wealth.

It clearly says no experience, its your choice. Anyway I dont care about getting a pine apple up my rectum because i know that will NEVER HAPPEN. It would never get to that stage.


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

It doesnt matter what my opinion is about the system. I only care about how to slip through the cracks. Don King stomped a man to death for a few dollars and beat the wrap. I just got to find the way haha


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## Junior (14 August 2014)

You'll probably get away with it darkhorse70.  This bloke flew under the radar for 10 years, and his schemes had $100mill FUM.

He's only being put away for 3 years 

Property developer jailed for 'Titanic' $100m investment scheme


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

haha junior i cracked up at the last paragraph. I think i found a new idol hahahaha. On a serious note, i still appreciate the advise. I dont truly understand the full gravity of the situation. Im still just a 22 yr old kid, competing and striving for social acceptance in some ways and like all kids (or most) money/proving to others you are worthy of great things is on my mind alot. When i here there are so many barriers and obstacles in my way of possible success my natural reaction is to find a way around it. 

Im treading more cautiously, however im not going to abandon the idea overall. I dont even want to think about this aspect. I want to fully concentrate on trading but since some one is offering me money, it increases my capital power and at the same time could possibly set me up for something good in the future. I just want to protect my self in some sort of way. My main goal is not to get banned from managing other peoples money in the future.

Some people commented earlier (forgot who, cant be bothered scrolling back haha) saying below 20 people is legally allowed or something like that. Thats what im hoping for. Either way its a learning experience and the more i pursue it, the more i learn. It also builds a more concrete image of myself as a trader mentally and creates an alter ego where i perceive myself as a trader, hence hopefully atleast physiologically making more persistent in order to succeed.


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

Right now i got bigger problems. I deliver pizzas at night, and i delivered to a goddess. Now i have to scheme a way of picking her up, the next time she orders. hahaha


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## pinkboy (14 August 2014)

Why dont you go out and apply for a job in the industry and get the qualification?

You:


Get a wage.
Get experience.
Get a qualification.
Use other peoples money with the responsibility of your endeavours.

^^Then you can use all that when you increase your capital base.....LEGALLY.

I made my first $million at age 23...legally.  Its not some pipe dream....it can be done!


What you want, is a 'wipe your hands free if it all turns to $h!t' venture and ride off into the sunset on your Unicorn.


pinkboy


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

i would if i could. Im basically kicked out of uni, so I cant really get a job in that field. No one gives you a chance unless you have some type of track record if you want to trade. That is what im hoping to build.

Im just a peasant working 7 days a week, 4 hours a day getting $10 an hour. But im looking to find something new. Just get an average wage so I can save enough to start trading. I dont want to wipe my hands clean. I just dont want to be sued because some maniac can sue me. I have alot of friends who are just plain dumb. They dont understand that every thing has a risk and when you try to explain that the markets are an odds game and that they have a risk the only thing they come up with is so what happens if you lose my money and how much can i make. In other words they are neanderthals haha.

My main goal in life to help others. Im not some ego maniac who wants to rein over others. But i need a tool in creating some wealth. So my objective is not to rob and steal. 

I dont know how you made your first million at 23. Maybe you came from a wealthy family. I dont know but i feel like im making progress in this venture. Know one is forcing me to learn. I read on my own will. I have a genuine hunger for the nuts and bolts of how economics works and trading fascinates me. The rest will require time. 

I dont even care about taking other peoples money. By the end of the month i think ill have 10k and ill actually trade for the first time. So that alone is exciting. I was never good at the political game especially in the corporate world as you can tell haha. So i dont think ill flourish in an ego driven environment where people make jokes and have fake laughs and suck up to each other. 

This contract is a fraction of my goal. I want to be a good trader. The rest will take care of itself. Taking money off others is a distraction and isnt my main goal as you are assuming.


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## trainspotter (14 August 2014)

If you were serious you would start a company limited by shares and set the value of the shares at $1.00 and offer 10 million shares broken down into "ordinary", Class "A,B,C,D" and have their rights and obligations written down to non voting rights, non recourse etc ad infinitum - DYOR.



> An offer information statement (OIS) has lower disclosure requirements but can only be used for fundraising up to $10 million in aggregate, that is, including any earlier fundraising under an OIS. If you want to use an OIS you must be able to include with it a copy of an audited financial report with a balance date within the last six months.




http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Raising+funds+in+Australia?openDocument

You then sell your shares under an Offer of Information Statement with the precursory waiver of "sophisticated investor" status. Which means referring back to the link I evidenced earlier. These people are allowed under ASIC rules to invest in your company. Your company then uses the money to "invest" in whatever it wants and the "shareholders" are issued a certificate stating they have invested X $$$ with a value of (whatever they contribute) You are merely raising capital.

Now none of this is advice and I am not a representative of any company spruiking as to how to set these things up to gain a financial advantage in the market place. You need to get sound financial advice and also check with a qualified accountant as to the veracity of my post.

But you have piqued my interest with the "Goddess" and the pizza delivery theme. Sounds like a good start to a B Grade porno !!


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## pinkboy (14 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> I dont know how you made your first million at 23. Maybe you came from a wealthy family.




Most certainly not! Both my parents are essentially living week to week.  I like you, started with a casual (turning into a full-time) job in a childcare centre, changing $hitty nappies and playing tea parties.  My GF (now wife) and I saved up $14k and bought a house 95% LVR.  The house grew in value.  By this stage my daughter was coming so I left the centre to work for a company that did protective coatings as a labourer.  After 2 years, with only skills and a vision, I went out on my own as a 1 man show, borrowing $123k from the bank against our house (sketchy risk).  My vision was to at least mimic my wage from my old job.  In my first year, I scored a job worth over $500k, worked bloody hard, and with the profits, paid for all my equipment, and paid the bank back in full, in a single cheque for that $123k.  

From there, churning a couple $mil has been reasonably consistant.  My largest workforce was 34 men, but now a more manageable 10. Ive ticked off every single goal in my little red book that I jotted all my notes down in - except 1!  That goal, is to get a job for >$1mil in a single job  (My best is $880k).  I have quoted 5x jobs over that elusive goal, and not jagged one yet.  One I got feedback on, I was the most favourable price, but the company strength and skill lost me the job on the weighting.  One day, it will come  !

So there, Ive revealed that something as simple as working hard, saving a bit of capital, working hard, get a bit of skills up, and working hard pays off.

And all I am is a dumb, thinner sniffing Industrial Painter.  A far step down from a pizza delivery boy - trust me!


pinkboy


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## skyQuake (14 August 2014)

pinkboy said:


> thinner sniffing Industrial Painter




Gotcha! Now everyone knows the secret to success!


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

Haha trainspotter. Thats great advice. Ill keep that in mind. Thanks.  Genius haha

Pinkboy thats a great under dog story. Ill use that as fuel. Hopefully I can share a fraction of ur success one day.


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## DJG (14 August 2014)

pinkboy said:


> Ill bite.  Take me on as your first client, Ill give you $100k that I want you to make 20% return on in 12mths.*
> 
> *Keeping in mind if you dont return the desired 20%, I can get you whacked for $5k
> 
> ...




I get the sad feeling he has already legitimately PM'd you asking if you're serious about this proposal!


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## McLovin (14 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> My friend came up with this simple contract. As for how much capital is going to be generated atm its only $1000 by one friend if that. Ive also come up with a semi business plan but for me this is a fun project I can undertake with my friend and learn at the same time. Im going to have about $10000 by the end of the month of my own money but if some friends wish to contribute im happy to take their money if they understood all the risks etc. I just attatched a photo of the legal contract my friend came up with.
> 
> We are not sure if its a binding contract since the legal system can possibly over rule it in an instant haha. The contract is more to show our friends that we are acting as ' professional' as possible and take this seriously. Any thoughts on the contract. Its not fully done yet, its a working progress.




Your friend is a law student and the first thing they did was sign over legal title (does cash even have title??) to you? They've got a bright future! 

I wouldn't bother with a written contract. Follow the same logic that applies to those who get arrested; the more you say, the more you incriminate yourself.

And for absolute clarity, that is not advice.


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## DJG (14 August 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> I have alot of *friends who are just plain dumb*. They dont understand that every thing has a risk and when you try to explain that the markets are an odds game and that they have a risk the only thing they come up with is so what happens if you lose my money and how much can i make. In other words they are neanderthals haha.
> 
> I was never good at the political game especially in the corporate world as you can tell haha. So i dont think ill flourish in an ego driven environment where people make jokes and have fake laughs and suck up to each other.




Perhaps you only have 2 - 4 'friends' because you call them dumb? Would you say you're smarter than them? If so, then your lawyer mate must be getting taught by the university of almonds.

Additionally how would you know what the corporate world is like without first hand experience (as you said)? Unless of course you believe movies, magazines and hearsay?

Why did you get kicked out of uni? And please don't tell me because its an unfair communist system run by neo-Nazi's.


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

honestly i don't give two ****s what these guys have to say there is such thing as a equitable title.
 Legal title means you have control and legally own it in your possesion but im implying that the person would still have equitable title. I dont know 100!% if it applies to cash, maybe it does maybe it doesnt. The important thing is contracts are based on intention. " quoted by my friend". My friend said he wrote this up for our friend for 1k. He said if it got serious big then obviously hed put in hard work.

Relax DJG. Im jking about the neanderthal thing. I have two groups of friends. The educated ones and the ones that dont value education. I dont consider myself above any one. We all have different strenghts.

I have hundreds of friends. Only a few that I hang ith daily.

Ive worked for some marketing company. Boss' who only focus on the performing sales people. Every one lying to themselves and talking the company up. 

Im not your standard joe. I talk to people differently. Ill accept your difference. Ill talk to junkies. Ill gove a homeless guy food. Ill help an injured animal. I dont judge. These corporate world is all about so called 'image'. Its all pretend. Its all a big illusion which values this pretend view. Who wears the best stuff. Who has what.

Its a heirachy based on who dominates who. 

I got kicked out cause I went to college, did the same subjects, finish go to uts. Tjen I got 0 credit points have to do the whole thing again. I faoled accounting two times and statistics. I dont know how to revise for exams. I didnt have my heart in it. An old man stands on a stage, reads off a book and charges you 2k. Talk about killing a passion. I couldnt see the goal pf going to uni. 

Ive failed at alot of things in my life. Got sacked from my first job at 15, was screamed at and mocked at other jobs and never succeeded at sales. Hence why I dont like working for others for the rest of my life. Its not that im lazy. People just think they can abuse me because I dont complain but i eventually snap.

I found some thing I love which I can enjoy by myself without all these people trying to mess with your emotions. 

 Ill live by this moto. In the first year ill be your devoted student. Learn everything you have to teach me. The second year ill learn all your weaknesses. And the third year I will destroy you hahahaha. (Stolen quote but I like it)

But yeah thats just my life experiences. I come in peace but im hungry to destory others through my success.


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## darkhorse70 (14 August 2014)

But also ill help any one in need. Even if I hate you and come tp me for advice ill serve you with all my knowledge.


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## jasonpile (1 March 2019)

I agree with cynical.


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