# Finding the truth vs. "The Rule of Law"



## basilio (7 March 2021)

Last week the AG Christian Porter denounced accusations of rape against him as completely false.  The accusations had been passed to the NSW Police who announced that because the person who had initially contacted them had not made a formal statement before she died there was insufficient admissible evidence to conduct any further inquiry or create any sort of criminal charge.

The case was therefore closed. On this basis the AG and the Prime Minister intend to close the inquiries and Christian Porter made an impassioned plea that  opening any other investigations was tantamount to destroying* "The Rule of Law".*

But is this a legitimate  statement? Is a formal Police charge the only means of finding out the truth or fully investigating a situation? 

The reality is that we already have and use a multitude of mechanisms to investigate through  legal structures, the circumstances and truth around events.  Recent Royal Commissions into Child Sex abuse, failures in the banking system, failures in Aged Care facilities just to mention a few are examaples of non police investigations.

In industry Boards will routinely find a legal inquiry as a way of investigation serious allegations against senior management that can't or shouldn't be just given to the police. Same goes for Universities and community organisations. In almost all these cases the intention is to ascertain whether a person is fit and proper to hold their position.  They are not necessarily interested in establishing "beyond reasonable doubt criminal convictions" because in the real world  of business, education and community goverance a lessor level of certainty  is all that is required to know that something stinks and* the Board would be liable itself if it didn't take action. *

Like many others on this forum I have had responsibilities on Boards and we have had to take investigative actions when allegations of misbehaviour come to our attention.  They always require fair processes but in no case do we have the luxury of saying "Leave it to the Police" .

What do people think ?  This article examines the question in more depth.









						Christian Porter allegations: independent inquiry no threat to rule of law, legal experts say
					

Prof Ben Saul says it’s ‘par for the course’ in Australia for non-criminal inquiries to look at potential criminal matters




					www.theguardian.com


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## SirRumpole (7 March 2021)

I agree with the article.

What Morrison was effectively saying is that he is prepared to accept any standards of behaviour from his Ministers as long as they don't break the law and yet plenty of people have been thrown out of Cabinet over the years for much more minor transgressions (including not declaring the import of a colour tv set) .

Character is important, especially for the highest law officer in the land, who has the power to initiate and terminate prosecutions, has control over Law Reform and the Commission for Law Reform Integrity. They have to have integrity themselves.

An inquiry into this matter is definitely needed, as evidence may be uncovered that the police are unable or unwilling to obtain.

Say that the deceased went to a psychologist and told him/her that she was raped by the accused. That would be pretty powerful evidence, but it's easy to see why the government wouldn't want that sort of thing unearthed.

Smells like a coverup to me.


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## bellenuit (7 March 2021)

Has anyone else come forward corroborating what she said? If not, what can an enquiry unearth if it is a matter of she said he said and she is no longer alive? I think this is one of those cases where it is better to accept that an injustice may have been done instead of potentially making another injustice. 

It is now a political football and many of those calling for justice most likely do not care about justice, but simply have political motives.


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## basilio (7 March 2021)

I was asking this question more broadly than just the current questions about the Attorney General.

But the issue remains.  Is there a way to make public officials more accountable in their dealings with the community they serve ? The current line of "Send it to the Police" is clearly unrealistic. There have been many calls for IPAC commissions with teeth.  Again a legal structure intended to investigate political actions that undermine good governance.

With regard to the AG rape accusations.  There is substantial corroborative evidence around the accusations. It may not be sufficient for criminal court of law to find a guilty verdict. But as the article indicated many issues of malpractice in public office require a lesser degree of legal certainty for people to be seen as inappropriate for their position.

With regard to Christian Porter.  The ABC ran a 4 Corners program last year that explored his character and behaviour in depth. * There was no hint of the current allegation* but the issues raised seemed serious enough to question his suitability as AG and, in my view, warranted further independent investigation.









						Inside the Canberra Bubble
					

This Four Corners investigation questions the conduct of some of the most senior politicians in the nation.



					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (7 March 2021)

basilio said:


> But the issue remains. Is there a way to make public officials more accountable in their dealings with the community they serve ?




Vote them out ?


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## basilio (7 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Vote them out ?




Absolutely don't agree.  Elections are about a multitude of issues.  It is almost impossible to focus on issues of behaviour which have gone uninvestigated 12 months ago.  That is the critical reason politicians attempt to brazen out calls for inquires and claims of malpractice.

Just deny, deny deny and assume the fuss will die down and you can divert attention with "something else" when the election comes around.

Also the capacity of officials to "get away" with bad behaviour is a powerful reinforcement  of continuing it. 
---------------------------
With regard to the pressures to have a proper investigation of the Christian Porter allegations.
All the initial pressure has been brought by friends of the deceased who by and large seem to be Liberal Party supporters. Their interest has been to see justice for their friend.


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## sptrawler (8 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Vote them out ?



That is the real test as to who believes or disbelieves any politicians integrity and with Porter it will be the media who get to decide, because the accuser is dead.
I don't have a clue whether the AG did what he was accused of, but his integrity has already been judged by many, as was John Jarratt, Geoffrey Rush, Craig McLachlan, George Pell, the Chamberlains, to my observation most of the hype and finger pointing was done well before any court hearing.
This seems to be heading down the same path, just my take on it.
Hopefully there is an investigation, because the constant trail by media is becoming a real issue IMO.

We seem to be moving into a very vague law system, where the onus is becoming proving innocence as opposed to proving guilt, which isn't a problem as long as it isn't you that are the brunt of the accusation.
I heard today that the young lady who is Australian of the year, has called for the State and Federal Government to define what is consent, I personally think that will be self resolving, if I was a young bloke I would be asking for a signed agreement before taking anyone to bed.


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## sptrawler (8 March 2021)

basilio said:


> With regard to the pressures to have a proper investigation of the Christian Porter allegations.
> All the initial pressure has been brought by friends of the deceased who by and large seem to be Liberal Party supporters. Their interest has been to see justice for their friend.



That is understandable, after their daughter or friend had taken her life, maybe as the incident is said to have happened 30 years ago, they could have done something earlier?
Just a very sad situation that wont have a happy ending IMO, I certainly hope the result gives them peace.
I'm just grateful it isn't my cross to bear.

The only winners out of this sad incident is the media, with a free reality show, to improve their ratings, we really are becoming a sideshow society IMO.


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## basilio (8 March 2021)

There are a couple of new stories that suggest a police based investigation of incidents is not necessarily the only way to establish the facts.
The NSW Police Commissioner has now said that even if the alleged AG rape victim had signed off on a statement the case would still not made it to trial. Just seemed  too difficult to obtain *a criminal conviction *in the circumstances.

Secondly a counseller has now come forward with her statement that the alleged victim saw her on repeated occasions in 2013 and spoke of the incident identifying the AG.









						NSW Police Commissioner says historical rape allegation 'probably' wouldn't have made it to court
					

The NSW Police Commissioner says a historical rape allegation against Attorney-General Christian Porter "probably" would not have made it to court even if the alleged victim was still alive.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						'Extremely articulate': Woman told counsellor of alleged Christian Porter rape eight years ago
					

A sexual assault counsellor has told Four Corners the woman who accused Christian Porter of rape saw her about six times and spoke of the alleged assault.




					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2021)

Another 4C exposure of Porter tonight apparently.

It's hard to see him surviving in that position, too many unanswered questions hanging over him.


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is understandable, after their daughter or friend had taken her life, maybe as the incident is said to have happened 30 years ago, they could have done something earlier?
> Just a very sad situation that wont have a happy ending IMO, I certainly hope the result gives them peace.
> I'm just grateful it isn't my cross to bear.
> 
> The only winners out of this sad incident is the media, with a free reality show, to improve their ratings, we really are becoming a sideshow society IMO.




If Porter was a backbencher or a cross bencher it would be a sideshow and the media probably wouldn't bother, but Porter has too much power to brush the issue aside.


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## sptrawler (8 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If Porter was a backbencher or a cross bencher it would be a sideshow and the media probably wouldn't bother, but Porter has too much power to brush the issue aside.



Porter is done, he is coping heaps more flack than Shorten did, but the media is out for blood and the mob is aroused.
I feel sorry for the parents, I know if this was my daughters life being dragged through the media, I would be asking why didn't she come to me or if she did why I didn't do something earlier.
Now we may have a counsellor coming forward apparently with knowledge of the issue 8 years ago, so if the friends knew, the counsellor knew, the parents knew, why was nothing brought forward? Maybe she would be alive now if someone had said "this needs clearing up".
Having four children of my own, two boys and two girls all around 40 years old, I know which of them could be stretching the truth and which don't, character traits are obvious as people grow.

Just a very sad situation all round, like I said earlier I hope the parents find peace, just very sad no matter what the outcome.
My guess is the next stage will be the police coming forward to report on the credibility of the victim.
All very messy.


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Porter is done, he is coping heaps more flack than Shorten did, but the media is out for blood and the mob is aroused.
> I feel sorry for the parents, I know if this was my daughters life being dragged through the media, I would be asking why didn't she come to me or if she did why I didn't do something earlier.
> Now we may have a counsellor coming forward apparently with knowledge of the issue 8 years ago, so if the friends knew, the counsellor knew, the parents knew, why was nothing brought forward? Maybe she would be alive now if someone had said "this needs clearing up".
> Having four children of my own, two boys and two girls all around 40 years old, I know which of them could be stretching the truth and which don't, character traits are obvious as people grow.
> ...




It is very sad and messy as you say.

The relatives of the deceased lady say they want the truth to come out, so they seem prepared for all the evidence to come out.

I found it interesting that the police said that there is no *"admissable"* evidence, ie that could be presented in court. In the absence of the complainant in person, a sworn statement would be required, but she could still have named the person responsible to police which would be in the records of interview kept by police.

If these are turned over to an inquiry then it could add to to the pile of s**t that is hanging over Porter's head.


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## basilio (8 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Now we may have a counsellor coming forward apparently with knowledge of the issue 8 years ago, so if the friends knew, the counsellor knew, the parents knew, why was nothing brought forward? Maybe she would be alive now if someone had said "this needs clearing up".




Not the way it works SP.  From personal experience I'm aware how challenging it is to have these allegations successfully prosecuted through the legal system. Frankly any counselling to a rape victim is always  exceptionally clear about  the consequences of making a formal complaint.  Disbelief, rigourous recounting of the incidents, exploration of admissible evidence, character and background checks to ensure the complainant has "credibility" in the eyes of a potential jury. Routinely accused of being a liar or a fantasist or mentally ill.

Almost all advice given to rape victims is be very, very thoughtful about taking the legal route.

*Which of course is why the real sociopathic rapists have every confidence they can get away with it.*

Anyway this isn't the topic for this thread. It is about recognising these realities and  exploring the host of other legal investigative processes that can establish the truth behind allegations as distinct from  attaining a criminal conviction.


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## moXJO (8 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Not the way it works SP.  From personal experience I'm aware how challenging it is to have these allegations successfully prosecuted through the legal system. Frankly any counselling to a rape victim is always  exceptionally clear about  the consequences of making a formal complaint.  Disbelief, rigourous recounting of the incidents, exploration of admissible evidence, character and background checks to ensure the complainant has "credibility" in the eyes of a potential jury. Routinely accused of being a liar or a fantasist or mentally ill.
> 
> Almost all advice given to rape victims is be very, very thoughtful about taking the legal route.
> 
> ...



Wait. Why so quick to "Totally clear" bill shorten?

That was police lead investigation. From what I know she is trying to get her case heard again. 

You want 'proper investigation' or do you want political point scoring?

I do agree it's difficult to find evidence to convict guys that are guilty. Parliamentary investigation isn't such a bad idea.


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## basilio (8 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If Porter was a backbencher or a cross bencher it would be a sideshow and the media probably wouldn't bother, but Porter has too much power to brush the issue aside.




There are a number of relevant points
1) Porter is the AG. The most powerful legal person in Australia. His character and behaviour are exceptionally relevant to his position
2) The Government has a one seat majority. Loss of control in the House would be disastrous
3) The issue might be historical but it has immediate political currency with the Brionay Higgins alleged rape. This was by a young upcoming Liberal high flyer.  More critically 3 other people have now come forward with other allegations of assault. How he has managed to continue his upward path  needs some questioning.

How should all political parties deal with members who take these liberties ?


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## basilio (8 March 2021)

moXJO said:


> Parliamentary investigation isn't such a bad idea.




Absolutely not.   The point always raised was that investigations should be conducted by impartial legal people. Respected retired judges are usually a safe pair of hands.


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## moXJO (8 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Absolutely not.   The point always raised was that investigations should be conducted by impartial legal people. Respected retired judges are usually a safe pair of hands.



I have to agree.


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## basilio (8 March 2021)

basilio said:


> 3) The issue might be historical but it has immediate political currency with the Brionay Higgins alleged rape. This was by a young upcoming Liberal high flyer. More critically 3 other people have now come forward with other allegations of assault. How he has managed to continue his upward path needs some questioning.




IMV this is the grenade that is waiting to shatter the Liberal Party. This incident happened just before the 2019 election. The alleged perp has been shielded and protected by the Liberal Party ever since. He is now out of sight. Who protected him since the incident ??


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## moXJO (8 March 2021)

Knowing what parliament is like, expect both sides to start throwing others into the pit to deflect attention. I've already seen a few names start popping up.


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2021)

basilio said:


> How should all political parties deal with members who take these liberties ?




He's been dismissed. What else can they do ?



basilio said:


> Anyway this isn't the topic for this thread. It is about recognising these realities and exploring the host of other legal investigative processes that can establish the truth behind allegations as distinct from attaining a criminal conviction.




Maybe something can be done in terms of making it easier for complainants to take civil action where the standards of proof are lower and the accused's past sexual practises could be examined as well as the victim's.

It could all happen in private and while no-one gets sent to jail if there is a reasonable case then the accused may be required to pay compensation.

It wouldn't work in all cases but it's worth a try.


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## basilio (8 March 2021)

Good idea. The question of what standard of proof is required, who hears the cases, what are the consequences are very difficult to establish.

There are some excellent examples of problem solving Courts which attempt to resolve issues like drug related charges rather than simply throwing them in jail.
Judges and Problem-Solving Courts - Center for Court ...​www.courtinnovation.org › sites › default › files › Judg...

PDF
_legal_ and ethical concerns raised by _problem_-_solving_ courts. Another potential ... _Problem_-_solving_ judging is by _no means_ the standard _way_ of doing business in.


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## sptrawler (8 March 2021)

It is all going to be very, very messy, I suppose if Porter has to stand down, there will be calls for the ex leader of the opposition to follow suit.
So even the worst case scenario, will result in the same numbers in parliament, not that it has anything to do with the issues in question.


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## Garpal Gumnut (8 March 2021)

I've been made follow this by a position not of my asking, being able to do little except watch television. More on that later. I hate television. 

It appears to me that men and women in this present brouha, Parliament, Media, 4Corners etc. all come from a privileged background whether it be by birth, education, wealth or just luck. 

No mention is made of the thousands of working class and indigenous women and men who are yearly exposed to rape or pillage by dearth of their social status. Unemployed, unemployable, unable to afford a home, never will, working 2 or 3 jobs for paltry wages if they have one, living in crime-ridden suburbs, unsafe at night, they or their children drug addled and stood over by criminals, filling up our jails and daily bothered by "support agencies". 

I couldn't give a rats what happens to Porter or Shorten.

They now want to turn people who work for politicians into public servants so that they have "protection". What a load of b@llox. 

If I had my way I'd bulldoze Canberra in to the ground and every media organisation including the ABC with it. 

gg


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## SirRumpole (8 March 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I've been made follow this by a position not of my asking, being able to do little except watch television. More on that later. I hate television.
> 
> It appears to me that men and women in this present brouha, Parliament, Media, 4Corners etc. all come from a privileged background whether it be by birth, education, wealth or just luck.
> 
> ...




Drain the swamp eh gg ?  

But you are quite right.

People working for low wages in times of high unemployment are ripe for exploitation in all sorts of ways.

Their needs will never be considered or their rights enforced, they are invisible.

A very appropriate comment from you in this thread.


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## Dona Ferentes (8 March 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I've been made follow this by a position not of my asking, being able to do little except watch television. More on that later. I hate television.
> 
> It appears to me that men and women in this present brouha, Parliament, Media, 4Corners etc. all come from a privileged background whether it be by birth, education, wealth or just luck.
> 
> ...



ABC is based in Sydney (Ultimo)


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## basilio (9 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Drain the swamp eh gg ?
> 
> But you are quite right.
> 
> ...




Indeed... 

For what it's worth let's remember that the victim of the alleged rape 30 plus years ago was also well entrenched in the "privileged" class. Top private school education. Exceptional academic skills (Dux of her class.) 

Left Uni with excellent results and had friends throughout her life who, by and large, were part of this ""privileged" group. I highlight because if the complaint was merely some nobody there would have been * no chance *she would have had her accusations make a ripple in the political world. 

She , like every other person who has been  sexually assaulted in private, recognised how difficult it is to bring the issue up at a later stage. She did however keep diaries, notes, memoirs etc. She had spoken to a number of friends and a counsellor. She had put her story together as clearly and honestly as she could. And when she had opened her experience to this wide group of  people who have significant presence in the community they believed there was a case to answer.  These are the  "privileged" people who now want an independent review of the allegations because they challenge the integrity of the highest law maker in the country.  









						This is the story behind Christian Porter's accuser
					

Four Corners last year exposed Parliament's toxic workplace culture and questioned the conduct of some of the most senior politicians in the nation. At the time, there was one allegation that couldn't be revealed. This is it.




					www.abc.net.au


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## sptrawler (10 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Indeed...
> 
> For what it's worth let's remember that the victim of the alleged rape 30 plus years ago was also well entrenched in the "privileged" class. Top private school education. Exceptional academic skills (Dux of her class.)
> 
> ...



Well as a thesis, what if said high achiever, was sweet talked by extremely talented and upwardly mobile, charming and attractive young buck with promises of marriage and a future together, to give up her flower.
Then after said deed, the prince charming put mobile phone on block, meanwhile fair maiden with underlying mental health issues struggles with said rejection and readjusts history over the next 30 years, to come to terms with unacceptable outcome?
Just wondering, same as yourself, it is all speculation and some people obviously love to run with anything the media feeds them. 😉
I would rather wait until the facts come out, before condemning anyone, life has taught me that the most obvious thing is seldom what happened.


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## SirRumpole (10 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> *I would rather wait until the facts come out*, before condemning anyone, life has taught me that the most obvious thing is seldom what happened.




So would I, but they never will unless there is a proper inquiry.


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## basilio (10 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well as a thesis, what if said high achiever, was sweet talked by extremely talented and upwardly mobile, charming and attractive young buck with promises of marriage and a future together, to give up her flower.
> Then after said deed, the prince charming put mobile phone on block, meanwhile fair maiden with underlying mental health issues struggles with said rejection and readjusts history over the next 30 years, to come to terms with unacceptable outcome?
> Just wondering, same as yourself, it is all speculation and some people obviously love to run with anything the media feeds them. 😉
> I would rather wait until the facts come out, before condemning anyone, life has taught me that the most obvious thing is seldom what happened.



Indeed!! In fact that is the classic defense argument that has been well used for millenniums. 

It is always worth floating and if Christian Porter had stepped aside and invited a private investigation into the matter he could have presented that argument with a chance to establish reasonable doubt.

*Unfortunately for Christian he has  been absolutely vehement  that there was never any sexual or emotional relationship with the deceased. * That explanation is off the table  *unless he now recants his powerful public statement.*

I think the  legal consequences of that decision are now sinking in.


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## sptrawler (10 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Indeed!! In fact that is the classic defense argument that has been well used for millenniums.
> 
> It is always worth floating and if Christian Porter had stepped aside and invited a private investigation into the matter he could have presented that argument with a chance to establish reasonable doubt.
> 
> ...



And at this stage it could be as he said, that is where assumed innocent until proved guilty comes from, but since trail by media started a few years back that norm has been thrown out the window.

We now have a situation where the media is the overlord, who decrees who is right and who is wrong and are a law unto themselves.


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## basilio (10 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And at this stage it could be as he said, that is where assumed innocent until proved guilty comes from, but since trail by media started a few years back that norm has been thrown out the window.
> 
> We now have a situation where the media is the overlord, who decrees who is right and who is wrong and are a law unto themselves.




SP lets be clear. Christian Porter was well warned of this situation ages ago.  His story that no media outlets  presented him with the allegations  has been forcefully disproved. The stated objective of the letters sent to the various Ministers was a hands on investigation. The corroborative evidence that was attached to those letters was extensive and convince many people there was legitimate grounds for a closer look.

He chose to ride it out. He chose to use the legalistic minimalist  outcome from the NSW police to say

1) He had no criminal case to answer. Go away and 
2) He barely knew the woman, nothing ever, ever happened. Shame she had a mental illness.


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## SirRumpole (10 March 2021)

Scott Morrison insisted Christine Holgate resign for doing something that did not break the law.

Why is he applying a different standard to his Ministers ?


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## SirRumpole (10 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> We now have a situation where the media is the overlord, who decrees who is right and who is wrong and are a law unto themselves.




You could say the same about Watergate, but the press were proved right in the end.


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## basilio (10 March 2021)

It could also be the case of searching for the truth vs The Rule of Law. 

In an overwhelming number of cases it is formal investigative journalism  or private research that uncovers situations that may later lead to criminal prosecutions. Or perhaps other forms of legal inquiry.


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## sptrawler (10 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> You could say the same about Watergate, but the press were proved right in the end.



I don't have a problem with that, I take issue with the 24/7 coverage these days that start out as investigative journalism, then morph into a trail by media to squeeze every minute of airtime out of an issue.
This in turn ends up with every issue becoming a reality T.V show and every commentators opinion being presented as a statement of fact, to keep the plebs salivating. 
It happens on all issues, this isn't a unique example, it happens in the presentation of the grid issues as well, you are more informed than most presenters. 
Yet when they spew out the garbage, the next thing you are at the pub and someone is repeating it to you as a statement of fact, when in reality most of it is half correct at best.


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## SirRumpole (10 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I take issue with the 24/7 coverage these days that start out as investigative journalism, then morph into a trail by media to squeeze every minute of airtime out of an issue.




I agree there. The BLM protests were an example of that. Massively over-covered by the ABC in particular and it's not even in this country.

Likewise the Trump rallies. the Royal disclosures etc. Irrelevant to us but lapped up by the madia(sic) because they don't have to do much work to analyse them, they just concentrate on the scandals.


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## sptrawler (10 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I agree there. The BLM protests were an example of that. Massively over-covered by the ABC in particular and it's not even in this country.
> 
> Likewise the Trump rallies. the Royal disclosures etc. Irrelevant to us but lapped up by the madia(sic) because they don't have to do much work to analyse them, they just concentrate on the scandals.



The media is absolutely depressing, they always look for the scandal or take the glass half empty perspective.
At the moment the media could be lifting the public spirits, with some upbeat reporting on the fact the economy is returning from recession faster than ever before, first home buyers are actually getting into houses with State and federal handouts etc.
But no those articles are just one line comments on page 10 or the news report , lets get all the horror and depressing $hit on the front few pages, just in case someone is feeling upbeat they want to stop that lets get everyone suicidal and depressed. 😂
It wasn't long ago I was debating with members in the power generation thread, that this whole coal closing down thing has to be handled carefully, I was shouted down called a coal lover and heaps of media reports demanding coal be closed back then.
Well now, as I said, it would be self resolving.
The coal plants are being closed due to the rapid transition to renewables, the media will start to crank up the rhetoric about doom and disaster, rather than investigate and find out that it is actually being managed and maybe put a positive spin on the fact the coal is closing.
It is all about headlines and winding up the mob.


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## basilio (11 March 2021)

Headline says it all.   But well worth reading to see what sort of accountability  other professional face  with regard to thewir behaviour.









						Lawyers call for Porter to be subjected to the same standard of accountability as others in the legal profession
					

The Prime Minister rejects calls for an independent inquiry into historical rape allegation against Attorney-General Christian Porter, but prominent lawyers say there are other codes of conduct that may apply.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Smurf1976 (11 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Headline says it all.  But well worth reading to see what sort of accountability other professional face with regard to thewir behaviour.



Regardless of the details and what the ultimate outcome is, the same standards should apply to all.

Being a politician or other high profile person should not place someone above the law or have them treated differently but on the other hand, it should also not subject them to a presumption of guilt which would not apply to an unknown random individual in the same circumstance.

As for the case itself, it would almost certainly be one of those situations where regardless of legal processes and technicalities, a few people other than the accused would in practice know whether he's innocent or guilty. Perhaps not with sufficient evidence either way, but they'd know in practice.

I expect that many will have encountered a situation like that personally. Can't prove it but you know exactly who caused whatever problem in practice.


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## IFocus (11 March 2021)

Lets have a look at history should we?​​​Trial by media, toxic internet, unnecessary inquiries? That’s Gillard, not Porter​It seems those defending Christian Porter have forgotten what was done to Julia Gillard over allegations predating her time in politics. There was an inquiry into that. And a whole lot more.











						Trial by media, toxic internet, unnecessary inquiries? That's Gillard, not Porter
					

It seems most people in politics have forgotten what was done to Julia Gillard over allegations predating her time in politics. There was an inquiry into that. And a whole lot more.




					www.crikey.com.au


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## sptrawler (12 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Regardless of the details and what the ultimate outcome is, the same standards should apply to all.
> 
> Being a politician or other high profile person should not place someone above the law or have them treated differently but on the other hand, it should also not subject them to a presumption of guilt which would not apply to an unknown random individual in the same circumstance.
> 
> ...



Very well put smurf, whether the actual incident happened or not, something happened which obviously caused a lot of angst so it obviously deserves investigation.
A simple yes / no may work for a non significant figure, not meaning to demean anyone but funds are limited, however a person in high office who are paid a lot of taxpayers money should be open to investigation IMO.


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## Smurf1976 (12 March 2021)

IFocus said:


> It seems those defending Christian Porter



For me it's not about defending anyone, it's just about applying a consistent process regardless of who it is.

A proper process to investigate what happened should exist and be applied consistently regardless of who's involved. 

As per my comments in the real estate thread, our political system is rotten however, no doubt about that.


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## sptrawler (12 March 2021)

One thing I will say, I'm pleased I'm a pleb, because I grew up in some wild out back west places went to some wild parties, but always blew in my jeans. 😂

But having said that, if I was now a high profile guy making big bucks, would someone point the finger at me?
I know from experience, I had a girlfriend who was lovely but I met the girl i'm still married to 45 years later, any way long story short she married a great mate ( was a bit of a hand ball, nice girl, nice mate  ), we were apprentices together there were three of us apprentices.
Right all three of us apprentices got together about 7 years ago, well the scorned ex turned up at our get together and gave me the spray of my life, I mean why after 46years?
They have kids, I have kids, I've never seen her or him for over 40 years. I guess I'm saying some people can hang on to bad feelings for a long time. 🥺


----------



## basilio (12 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> For me it's not about defending anyone, it's just about applying a consistent process regardless of who it is.
> 
> *A proper process to investigate what happened should exist and be applied consistently regardless of who's involved.*
> 
> As per my comments in the real estate thread, our political system is rotten however, no doubt about that.




Neat summary. The  concern surrounding the PM's approach to the allegations of rape as only capable of being investigated by *The Police *are exceptionally well explained in  the legal sense in the attached analysis.

The story from the young woman who had been raped in the alley at 15  and why she decided to keep mum outlines the real life choices  faced in these situations. And of course it's far more difficult if, in fact, the victim has been friends with the alleged attacker.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_Following the allegations of rape against attorney general Christian Porter, which he firmly denies, Scott Morrison has insisted that alleged sexual assault can only be dealt with in criminal law. “I am not the police force,” he said when asked for his response as prime minister. “That is a matter for the police. I am not the commissioner of police.”

Treating an allegation of sexual violence as if it is, and can only ever be, a matter for police and the criminal law is legally incorrect and a dangerous message for the many women and men who have experienced sexual assault. *It also kills off a measured, informed public conversation about how else we might respond.*_








						No, prime minister, sexual assault allegations are not only a matter for the police | Karen O’Connell and Liam Elphick
					

The criminal law in Australia remains, despite attempts to reform it, a terrible tool for dealing with gender-based sexual violence




					www.theguardian.com
				












						I was raped as a teenager. Here is why I didn’t consider going to the police | Lucia Osborne-Crowley
					

The statistics betray the horrible truth of just how severely rape survivors are gaslighted in Australia




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (12 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> One thing I will say, I'm pleased I'm a pleb, because I grew up in some wild out back west places went to some wild parties, but always blew in my jeans. 😂
> 
> But having said that, if I was now a high profile guy making big bucks, would someone point the finger at me?
> I know from experience, I had a girlfriend who was lovely but I met the girl i'm still married to 45 years later, any way long story short she married a great mate ( was a bit of a hand ball, nice girl, nice mate  ), we were apprentices together there were three of us apprentices.
> ...




Agree. Almost certainly everyone has been involved in sticky situations particularly in our youth  And with the very best intentions memories of what happened and the effects on individuals will be wildly different. So free slather on these events is not on.

The circumstances surrounding Christian Porter have some major differences which require a deeper inquiry

1) He is is the Attorney General - the most significant legal officer in the country. The position alone requires public and political  confidence in the integrity of the office holder.

2) There are many on the record concerns about the  recent behaviours of Christian Porter. The 4 Corners investigations had first hand  statements from people who have seen  and described his actions.  IMV it is very  questionable for a person in his office to be carousing in the way he did.  Malcolm Turnball as PM  said exactly that.

3) The rape allegations against him as a teenager go beyond what might be seen as misunderstandings  or even just "damn it girl that's it " behaviour. And despite the fact the victim has died she left a detailed amount of corroborative evidence as well as a number of people who she had told of the incident. 

Pretending this can't be investigated  further? Not on.


----------



## IFocus (12 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> For me it's not about defending anyone, it's just about applying a consistent process regardless of who it is.
> 
> A proper process to investigate what happened should exist and be applied consistently regardless of who's involved.
> 
> As per my comments in the real estate thread, our political system is rotten however, no doubt about that.





Totally agree unfortunately that's not how politics works its never about fairness or the law.

The issue with Porter isn't now (never was given the situation) about law its about whether he is a fit and proper person to hold the office of AG.

Interestingly no female has come out in support of him Julie had an opportunity in an interview and dodged the question. 

An investigation all be it a paper over affair may give some relief to the family.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2021)

Can you imagine Porter trying to do an interview on say, industrial relations ?

The press will badger him about the allegations and the government won't be able to get its message across.

I think he will be a liability for the government, guilty or not especially as a lot of the press seem to be feminists these days.


----------



## IFocus (12 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Can you imagine Porter trying to do an interview on say, industrial relations ?
> 
> The press will badger him about the allegations and the government won't be able to get its message across.
> 
> I think he will be a liability for the government, guilty or not especially as a lot of the press seem to be feminists these days.




Yes hard to see how he can continue (you could throw Linda Reynolds in as well). 

On Insiders last week they grappled with the same question. 
No one thought he could continue that was without judgement of his situation just the noise that would be generated drowning out anything the government was doing.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 March 2021)

IFocus said:


> The issue with Porter isn't now (never was given the situation) about law its about whether he is a fit and proper person to hold the office of AG.



Realistically, pretty much anyone else with allegations against them which made them unfit to be in their current employment wouldn't be able to continue.

Whether that's wrong or right, if a doctor, engineer or bus driver were alleged to have done something that, if true, would make them unfit to be in that job then one way or another they'd be removed from it.

At best, the employer might put them on alternative duties. At worst, they'll be managed out. Regardless, they won't be permitted to continue.

As an example of that, in SA a train ticket inspector was recently sacked due to unproven allegations of child abuse dating back to the 1990's as an example of that. 









						Ticket inspector worked with children for two decades despite 'unacceptable risk'
					

A ticket inspector who worked across Adelaide's public transport network for more than two decades despite posing an "unacceptable risk" to child safety has lost his bid to keep working with children.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2021)

It sounds as though some bloke has the story from both sides, mutual friend of both parties or something similar, so it sounds as though it will come to a head soon.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It sounds as though some bloke has the story from both sides, mutual friend of both parties or something similar, so it sounds as though it will come to a head soon.




I'm surprised A Current Affair hasn't waved the chequebook at him by now.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm surprised A Current Affair hasn't waved the chequebook at him by now.



What amazes me is, Porter was a good looking, smart, well connected young bloke, he wouldn't have had any trouble getting girls.
So if he did do it, he really does need to be chuked in the can, because it would show he is a real nasty piece of work.
But as I've said on most of these sort of issues, I would rather sit back and presume innocence until something is proven, before picking up the pitchfork and frothing at the mouth.
The media loves to only print and espouse the information they want heard.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The media loves to only print and espouse the information they want heard.



A typical example just happened on the radio, radio 6PR talkback was on and they were discussing the way W.A had done very well with the virus, a listener phoned in and said that Australia had also done well because the bushfires had luckily reduced tourist numbers to Australia, Whereas the U.S had nearly 1,000,000 chinese torists before they and Australia shut the borders.
The presenter said that is wrong the U.S didn't close their border, the listener said they did, but the presenter basically said your wrong and moved on.
An article from 1st February 2020.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51338899

A lot of 6PR listeners were given a bum steer, but IMO that is normal.


----------



## basilio (12 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It sounds as though some bloke has the story from both sides, mutual friend of both parties or something similar, so it sounds as though it will come to a head soon.




All looking very sticky for Christian Porter and ScoMo.

1)  The mutual friend who knew both Porter and the deceased for 30 years  has a lot to say about conversations with Christian in the early 90's regarding the incident.  And he is prepared to do it on oath.  Remember that Christian said he knew *absolutely nothing* about the alleged rape until a few days  before his  public Press Conference.

2) Turns out  that the PM's office only sent a summary email of the alleged incidents with none of  the 39 pages of presented diaries, documents and other information forwarded to the PM. Now that the police are aware of the original documents they could reopen the investigation. (But in any case  there is little likelihood of any criminal case being mounted.)









						Friend of Christian Porter's accuser says he has 'clear recollections' of 'relevant discussions' with Porter
					

The man, who is now managing director of Macquarie Bank, releases statement saying he remembers discussions with Porter as far back as 1992




					www.theguardian.com
				












						AFP didn't pass on documents detailing allegation against Christian Porter to NSW police
					

NSW police say federal police only passed on a ‘summary email’ of the historical rape allegation against the attorney general which he denies




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2021)

As usual the truth has a way of coming out, that is why I dont get all excited one way of the other, eventually who is telling porkies will be uncovered.


----------



## moXJO (13 March 2021)

Never trust a politician.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2021)

basilio said:


> All looking very sticky for Christian Porter and ScoMo.
> 
> 1)  The mutual friend who knew both Porter and the deceased for 30 years  has a lot to say about conversations with Christian in the early 90's regarding the incident.  And he is prepared to do it on oath.  Remember that Christian said he knew *absolutely nothing* about the alleged rape until a few days  before his  public Press Conference.
> 
> ...



Oh well it looks as though the truth will come out as we said earlier.








						Christian Porter launches defamation action against the ABC
					

The Attorney-General alleges the online article portrays him as the perpetrator of a “brutal” rape that contributed to a woman taking her own life.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm surprised A Current Affair hasn't waved the chequebook at him by now.



I think the ABC will be getting the cheque book out for him, because IF Porter is proven correct, I think it will be the biggest defamation payout in Australian history. 🤪 









						Christian Porter launches defamation action against the ABC
					

The Attorney-General alleges the online article portrays him as the perpetrator of a “brutal” rape that contributed to a woman taking her own life.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think the ABC will be getting the cheque book out for him, because IF Porter is proven correct, I think it will be the biggest defamation payout in Australian history. 🤪
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That will be interesting. Of course it also enables Porter not to comment on the allegations because they are the subject of court action.

He's taking a risk in my view (not that I'm a lawyer), because if friends of the deceased come forward and say that she told them of the act then it will be a case of who's lying and who is not.

Given Porter's current record of behaviour the jury may well decide not to believe him.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> That will be interesting. Of course it also enables Porter not to comment on the allegations because they are the subject of court action.
> 
> He's taking a risk in my view (not that I'm a lawyer), because if friends of the deceased come forward and say that she told them of the act then it will be a case of who's lying and who is not.
> 
> Given Porter's current record of behaviour the jury may well decide not to believe him.



I personally would think it will be held before judges not a jury, also friends coming forward with with "what she said" is hearsay I'm not sure it can be used as evidence, it is up to the ABC and the lady journalist to prove the claim, I would have thought.
Anyway at least it will give 'fact check' something to do.
Now is not the time to be writing anything defamatory on the forum IMO, the lawyers and their paralegals will be trawling for evidence, maybe Bas will let rip. 😂


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I personally would think it will be held before judges not a jury, also friends coming forward with with "what she said" is hearsay I'm not sure it can be used as evidence, it is up to the ABC and the lady journalist to prove the claim, I would have thought.
> Anyway at least it will give 'fact check' something to do.
> Now is not the time to be writing anything defamatory on the forum IMO, the lawyers and their paralegals will be trawling for evidence, maybe Bas will let rip. 😂




One would certainly hope that the ABC's lawyers went through this matter very carefully.

Did the ABC ever name Porter ? He outed himself. 

Maybe he should sue himself.


----------



## basilio (15 March 2021)

"Attack is the best form of defence". Perhaps this is a clever way to stop any other investigation into the alleged events by saying it is now before the courts ?

It would be interesting to see is allowed to be used as evidence in the defamation case and whether this rules out hearsay - what James Hookes has to say about his conversations with the deceased and Christian Porter. This in itself will raise the issue of  the Attorney General's flat denial that the allegations were never raised. James Hookes is insistent that there were more than one conversations about the incident around 1992.

I also wonder why there is no slander suit against other internet outlets that have openly accused the AG of rape and identified the deceased ? It's still up on the web.









						Porter accuser’s ex reveals new details
					

A former boyfriend of the Adelaide woman who accused Attorney-General Christian Porter of an alleged rape has revealed for the first time that she had relevant discussions with him in 1989, the year after the alleged incident, and is calling for an independent investigation into the matter.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2021)

basilio said:


> "Attack is the best form of defence". Perhaps this is a clever way to stop any other investigation into the alleged events by saying it is now before the courts ?
> 
> It would be interesting to see is allowed to be used as evidence in the defamation case and whether this rules out hearsay - what James Hookes has to say about his conversations with the deceased and Christian Porter. This in itself will raise the issue of  the Attorney General's flat denial that the allegations were never raised. James Hookes is insistent that there were more than one conversations about the incident around 1992.
> 
> ...



You will probably find that other outlets refer to the allegations made by the ABC and the journalist, it is one thing saying something from the first person as opposed to re quoting someone else that can be referenced, as far as I know.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2021)

Well I hope the ABC wins this defamation case against Porter, or IMO there will be a lot of heads to roll, will be very messy and I trust the ABC has done its background work.
They didn't name Porter, but even on here plenty called it as being him, so either those on here have an issue with Porter, or they made it obvious who they were talking about.








						The strategy behind Christian Porter’s defamation gamble
					

The Attorney-General is seeking, very strategically, to back the ABC into a corner by challenging it to prove he is guilty of a crime.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
_Porter’s lawsuit against the ABC and Four Corners reporter Louise Milligan alleges the February 26 online article that revealed a historical rape allegation against a then-unnamed cabinet minister defamed him by portraying him as the perpetrator of a “brutal rape” of a 16-year-old girl in 1988, when he was 17.
A threshold question for the Federal Court, where the lawsuit has been filed, will be whether the article identified him, even though he wasn’t named.

There are a number of bases on which the court might conclude Porter was identified, including that a relatively small class of men, namely senior cabinet ministers, could have been the man at the centre of the allegations.
His name was also trending on Twitter in the days before he outed himself on March 3 as the minister at the heart of the story.
If he is identified by the article, a central issue will be whether the article conveys the very grave meanings that his lawyers claim are contained in the article.

Here, Porter has the upper hand - at least for now. In every defamation case, lawyers for the plaintiff are required to craft the defamatory meanings, known as “imputations”, that are said to arise from a publication. This marks the battleground for the case.
It is in the interest of plaintiffs for these meanings to be pitched at the highest possible level of seriousness, which maximises potential damages and may make it harder for a defendant to mount a successful defence.

The judge presiding over the case will have to decide which meanings were in fact conveyed.

In this case, it is very likely the ABC will argue that these high-level meanings - that Porter is guilty of a “brutal rape”, or there were “reasonable grounds” for suspecting him of the crime - were not conveyed.

It may argue its article suggested only that there were reasonable grounds for an investigation.

The sticking point for the ABC is that it must engage with and defend the meanings pleaded by Porter’s lawyers, not what they believe the article said and intended to sa_y.
_For the ABC, that means its defence is likely to be multi-pronged to cover all eventualities. In theory, it could include a truth defence to serious claims it does not believe it conveyed, effectively turning the case into a rape trial inside a defamation case, although this would be extraordinarily risky.

Porter’s lawyers know this, and in a statement his solicitor Rebekah Giles dares them to do it: “If the ABC and Ms Milligan wish to argue the truth of these allegations, they can do so in these proceedings.”

While a lower standard of proof applies in defamation cases, meaning an allegation would only need to be proven on the balance of probabilities rather than the criminal standard of beyond reasonable doubt, this is still a heavy burden_.

_The ABC likely did not want to say Porter had committed a crime, or was reasonably suspected of one, and ultimately a court may say it didn’t. But Porter has issued a challenge: could it prove that he did? Could anyone?

The truth is no media outlet would want to, and the case is going to be costly and messy for all involved - including him_.


----------



## orr (15 March 2021)

basilio said:


> "Attack is the best form of defence".



That was my  initial thought... But I see it more now as a broarder tactic toward the next Federal election in the most difficult of all manoeuvers; Retreat.
Is that a wiff of Stalingrad on the wind???


----------



## basilio (15 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well I hope the ABC wins this defamation case against Porter, or IMO there will be a lot of heads to roll, will be very messy and I trust the ABC has done its background work.
> They didn't name Porter, but even on here plenty called it as being him, so either those on here have an issue with Porter, or they made it obvious who they were talking about.
> 
> 
> ...




If this is the case then it does seem to be a clever strategy.

I think everyone agrees that providing the overwhelming evidence to get a *criminal conviction *of rape in a case that
1) is 32 years old, 
2) the defendant has died without writing a formal statement, 
3) there is no forensic evidence and
4) the alleged perp *totally and  absolutely* denies any such action occurred 

is not going to happen. The bar is just too high.
In fact of course most rape cases and almost all similar abuse cases have similar hurdles and for that reason it is almost impossible to get such a criminal conviction.

That doesn't of course  necessarily mean the accused is innocent. The case is simply unproven if not unprovable

Overall Christian Porter is attempting to have an investigation on his terms. Rather than examine the entire  picture of his fitness to be AG (and this is just one example) he wants to focus on a single long ago incident with no other direct witnesses which can be denied to the very end.


----------



## basilio (15 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You will probably find that other outlets refer to the allegations made by the ABC and the journalist, it is one thing saying something from the first person as opposed to re quoting someone else that can be referenced, as far as I know.




Maybe.  However if you check out this website there is much more detail than published in the ABC.








						Kangaroo Court of Australia
					

Shane Dowling is the publisher of the website Kangaroo Court of Australia which is focused on reporting political corruption, judicial corruption and associated corruption.




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## basilio (15 March 2021)

The lived experience of  tens of women I know is the reality of sexual abuse and sexual harrassment in their lives or friends or families.

It's the reality that regardless of vehement  protestations the events happened but are almost universally ignored, downplayed or gaslighted.

It's the fact that whenever a women does get as far as making a formal complaint or even tries to raise the question the likelihood of justice is minimal.

The hundred thousand  plus women who marched around the country are just fed up  to the back teeth with this ****.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Maybe.  However if you check out this website there is much more detail than published in the ABC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is a lot of words, but if you read the article he only accuses Porter of lying about receiving forward notice of the juorno's questions, very carefully worded article IMO.
As for his accuracy, I would question his credibility, he obviously doesn't take a great deal of care with his material when he is putting down someone called Peter Van Onselen.
In the last photo it states Porter is on the far left and Onselen is third from the right, when from looking at the picture I would say, Porter is fourth from the right, directly behind the girl in the centre.
If you are going to try and knock other peoples credibility, it is always best to make sure you have your $hit straight, maybe the guy who writes the blog isn't as rigorous with his self checks . 
Or maybe the guy on the far left is Porter and I made a mistake. 
From your link:








						A-G Christian Porter is guilty of raping Katharine Thornton, a powerful prima facie case supports, with the key evidence of lies from Porter’s own mouthKangaroo Court of Australia
					

Christian Porter denied raping Katharine Thornton at a press conference on Wednesday (3-3-21) but all he did was lie, lie and tell more lies and the only inference that could be drawn is that he di…




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2021)

basilio said:


> If this is the case then it does seem to be a clever strategy.
> 
> I think everyone agrees that providing the overwhelming evidence to get a *criminal conviction *of rape in a case that
> 1) is 32 years old,
> ...



For him not to take these steps, just encourages the attacks to continue, to say nothing would be looked upon as an admission of guilt.
If the ABC has evidence they haven't got a problem, if it's innuendo and hearsay it will probably cost the ABC a lot of money.
It should be very interesting, I don't think Porter has any other option, he denied it the media continued on with it.
This will bring about an investigation.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2021)

Oh well this Porter saga is starting to unfold similar to the Israel Folau sage, apparently the ABC and the journalist who wrote the articles, have until May 4th to decide if they want to go to court over the claims.





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Oh well this Porter saga is starting to unfold similar to the Israel Folau sage, apparently the ABC and the journalist who wrote the articles, have until May 4th to decide if they want to go to court over the claims.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The ABC would be pretty silly to argue truth imo, how could they prove it ? They would be better off just saying that they didn't identify Porter.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The ABC would be pretty silly to argue truth imo, how could they prove it ? They would be better off just saying that they didn't identify Porter.



If that doesn't work, I think the ABC will be in a world of pain, they really have painted themselves into a corner IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2021)

Now we are starting to see articles about defamation laws are flawed, well I would say defamation is about saying something that defames someone, that can't be proved.
Otherwise we have a situation where if you dislike someone, you just post up they are a pedofile, a murderer, a whatever you want to dream up, magic especially if it is your main competitor for a job. 🤪 

The world is moving into a really fluid space IMO.


----------



## IFocus (21 March 2021)

Looking more like a train wreck every day

Christian Porter’s lawyer, Rebekah Giles, said to her ex “You and (the woman) will be very happy as long as you keep your Viagra script current, keep flashing your cash and keep the cocaine coming”​








						Christian Porter’s lawyer, Rebekah Giles, said to her ex “You and (the woman) will be very happy as long as you keep your Viagra script current, keep flashing your cash and keep the cocaine coming”Kangaroo Court of Australia
					

Lawyer Rebekah Giles was involved in a dispute with her former partner that was labelled “an ugly revenge pr0n scandal” and she wrote, on social media website Instagram, to her former p…




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## basilio (21 March 2021)

IFocus said:


> Looking more like a train wreck every day
> 
> Christian Porter’s lawyer, Rebekah Giles, said to her ex “You and (the woman) will be very happy as long as you keep your Viagra script current, keep flashing your cash and keep the cocaine coming”​
> 
> ...




Unbelievable story  !!

I have to say I am cautious about Shane Dowling as a reporter . However, there is a history of Rebekah Giles there that makes one think of flying pans and deep fat fryers.

This is how one makes excellent  crisps.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2021)

IFocus said:


> Looking more like a train wreck every day
> 
> Christian Porter’s lawyer, Rebekah Giles, said to her ex “You and (the woman) will be very happy as long as you keep your Viagra script current, keep flashing your cash and keep the cocaine coming”​
> 
> ...



Yes, no doubt it will be Christian porters Mum and Dad in the firing line next, man your pitchforks.


----------



## basilio (21 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, no doubt it will be Christian porters Mum and Dad in the firing line next, man your pitchforks.



No... 

The query is around Christian Porters  lawyer who is going to run his case. This will be the  Defamation trial of the Century if it goes ahead. From the AG point of view he needs to feel confident his legal advice on the defamation claim and execution doesn't end up totally destroying him.  

Meanwhile consider the opticas of this:

_“When I talk about rage and anger that the Australian women are feeling, let’s look at the proposition that is being put here,” Keneally said.

“[The proposition is] that Christian Porter can return to his job as attorney general on a full-time salary but doing the part-time work, that parts of his job will be hived off artificially to other people and he will be given the time and space on his full-time salary to fight his defamation case.”

Keneally said it would be “wonderful if women who are victims of domestic violence in this country had access to paid leave when they have to go to court to escape their abusers”, but the government had suggested that “you can dip into your own superannuation and fund your own escape”.

“These are people who barely have any savings. So am I angry about that? Are women across Australia angry about that? Of course we are,” Keneally said.
_








						Proposal that Christian Porter can return to ‘full-time salary doing part-time work’ further fuel for fury, Labor says
					

Government’s advice that victims of domestic violence should use super to escape abusers a stark contrast, Kristina Keneally says




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2021)

No Bas, when people are starting to quote Shane Dowling, it is all becoming very sad.
I had never heard of him before your earlier post, but after reading his posts, IMO it is worse than posting the Bolt report.


----------



## moXJO (21 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> No Bas, when people are starting to quote Shane Dowling, it is all becoming very sad.
> I had never heard of him before your earlier post, but after reading his posts, IMO it is worse than posting the Bolt report.



He's the guy that went against a court order and named two women for clicks.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2021)

moXJO said:


> He's the guy that went against a court order and named two women for clicks.



Yes god help us, when we have to quote people like that, to support our moral compass.
It is obvious that Scomo is done, next cab off the rank Boris Johnson, oh well people deserve what they wish for IMO.


----------



## basilio (21 March 2021)

I'm not rapt in lots of Shane Dowling reporting.  But he is accurate about who who the alleged woman is and he called out Christian Porter earlier than other sources as far as I can see.

Let's remember that the documents sent to various reporters , ScoMo and the police have a wide circulation. The content is all the same.

At some stage, hopefully in a closed investigation, James Hooke will give on oath his memories of ongoing conversations with the young woman and with Christian Porter on the incident in the early 90's.  This is the event that Porter has said never ever happened and that he never knew about until a few weeks ago.


----------



## basilio (22 March 2021)

I'm on a roll with The Shovel. This story was too clever to miss.

*Christian Porter Arrested After Robodebt Finds He Owes $6 On His HECS Bill     * 
Attorney General Christian Porter is facing criminal charges today after it was revealed he accidentally forgot to pay the last $5.83 on his HECS loan.

A spokesperson for the ATO, which manages HECS, said it was unfortunate that Mr Porter was arrested over such a small sum of money, but stressed it was important that the ATO followed the rule of law.                                                                                

“We have a responsibility to the taxpayer to ensure that citizens are not undermining the system. We can’t just all of a sudden toss aside all legal principles just because it’s convenient to Mr Porter,” the spokesperson said.

Mr Porter, who oversaw the creation of Robodebt as Social Services Minister, has in the past refused to apologise for the system’s failings. He has now called for a full government enquiry.








						Christian Porter Arrested After Robodebt Finds He Owes $6 On His HECS Bill
					

"It's important that we follow the rule of law"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2021)

basilio said:


> I'm not rapt in lots of Shane Dowling reporting.  But he is accurate about who who the alleged woman is and he called out Christian Porter earlier than other sources as far as I can see.
> 
> Let's remember that the documents sent to various reporters , ScoMo and the police have a wide circulation. The content is all the same.
> 
> At some stage, hopefully in a closed investigation, James Hooke will give on oath his memories of ongoing conversations with the young woman and with Christian Porter on the incident in the early 90's.  This is the event that Porter has said never ever happened and that he never knew about until a few weeks ago.



This is the problem with and for bloggers, they have to be able to prove their claims, when tested, that is the rule of law.
I can't see the whole article, but it does show people need to be careful what they write as fact, when it really is an opinion or educated guess.
It's o.k picking on captain underpants, no one cares, but picking on companies and or people who can afford to challenge your opinion, is a whole new ball game.
It will be interesting to see what Christian Porter does, if he is aquitted of the charges, his career will be in tatters and he may well turn as spiteful as some of the bloggers. 




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				




In a statement of claim, the company's lawyers alleged each of the eleven publications carried a number of defamatory imputations about _Capilano_, now known as Hive and Wellness Australia, and Dr McKee, including that they put the “lives of Australians at risk” by selling _honey_ that is “full of antibiotics, _toxins_, .









						Capilano Honey awarded $25,000 after spending $millions trying to silence journalist Shane Dowling for allegations they sold poisonous and toxic honeyKangaroo Court of Australia
					

Capilano Honey Ltd, which is now known as Hive and Wellness Australia, has been awarded $25,000 by the NSW Supreme Court after spending $millions trying to silence journalist Shane Dowling for alle…




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## rederob (30 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> This is the problem with and for bloggers, they have to be able to prove their claims, when tested, that is the rule of law.
> I can't see the whole article, but it does show people need to be careful what they write as fact, when it really is an opinion or educated guess.
> It's o.k picking on captain underpants, no one cares, but picking on companies and or people who can afford to challenge your opinion, is a whole new ball game.
> It will be interesting to see what Christian Porter does, if he is aquitted of the charges, his career will be in tatters and he may well turn as spiteful as some of the bloggers.
> ...



Your post is contradictory.
Dowling provided evidence for his claims, including using the words of the CEO of the company that sued him, yet has huge damages to pay.
The rule of law is mostly the rule of deepest pockets.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2021)

rederob said:


> Your post is contradictory.
> Dowling provided evidence for his claims, including using the words of the CEO of the company that sued him, yet has huge damages to pay.
> The rule of law is mostly the rule of deepest pockets.



As is most things in life, Dowling is probably well aware of that and when running an opinion blog, it is one of the setbacks he no doubt faces.
I'm sure he takes onboard his responsibilities.


----------



## rederob (30 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As is most things in life, Dowling is probably well aware of that and when running an opinion blog, it is one of the setbacks he no doubt faces.
> I'm sure he takes onboard his responsibilities.



Dowling used factual information to make his points: they were not his opinions.
As he points out, the case against him had holes, but they did not affect the damages claim he now faces.

Even relying on proper material for posting anything does not preclude another party from *claiming *you have damaged their reputation.  Porter's case is proof, as is Dowling's.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2021)

rederob said:


> Dowling used factual information to make his points: they were not his opinions.
> As he points out, the case against him had holes, but they did not affect the damages claim he now faces.
> 
> Even relying on proper material for posting anything does not preclude another party from *claiming *you have damaged their reputation.  Porter's case is proof, as is Dowling's.



And as I said it is one of the setbacks of posting on a public space, much the same as the  Jeremy Cordeaux's situation.
Where his employment was been "terminated" after Cordeaux called Ms Higgins "a silly little girl who got drunk".

The station may well have been sued for defamation, or it could well be sued for unfair dismissal, it is probably exposed to both outcomes.

He was employed to give an opinion, he gave his opinion, was she a "silly little girl, who got drunk" or not? From the security guards account, she definitely slept it off, on the couch in the office.
He was sacked for doing his job, which sometimes causes public backlash, is that just cause to sack him? As you say, it may well claim it has damaged his reputation.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And as I said it is one of the setbacks of posting on a public space, much the same as the  Jeremy Cordeaux's situation.
> Where his employment was been "terminated" after Cordeaux called Ms Higgins "a silly little girl who got drunk".
> 
> The station may well have been sued for defamation, or it could well be sued for unfair dismissal, it is probably exposed to both outcomes.
> ...




Cordeaux ran a talkback program.

If people didn't like what he said they could ring him up and say so.

His former employers were gutless to sack him.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Cordeaux ran a talkback program.
> 
> If people didn't like what he said they could ring him up and say so.
> 
> His former employers were gutless to sack him.



I think they were wrong to sack him, they could distance themselves from the statement, but the statement wasn't incorrect.
If she hadn't been drunk, one would think the alleged situation may not have happened, as in retrospect the lady appears very hurt, angry and embarrassed by the whole incident.
So in fact what the radio announcer said may have some accuracy to it, who knows it is all speculation, but the radio announcer is just another casualty of the media circus that is running the Country ATM.


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think they were wrong to sack him, they could distance themselves from the statement, but the statement wasn't incorrect.
> If she hadn't been drunk, one would think the alleged situation may not have happened, as in retrospect the lady appears very hurt, angry and embarrassed by the whole incident.
> So in fact what the radio announcer said may have some accuracy to it, who knows it is all speculation, but the radio announcer is just another casualty of the media circus that is running the Country ATM.



Higgins is not "silly" and not "little".  Nor is she a "girl".  These are defamatory imputations.  
Getting drunk is not of itself an offence, but getting raped is a crime.
Rapists are often opportunists and don't necessarily rely on their victims to be drunk in order to rape them.  
You are falling into the same trap of victim blaming as Cordeaux.
Furthermore, what Cordeaux said is not speculative.  His remarks are on the public record and were broadcast to tens of thousands.
Your opinion that a media circus is running the country is very much at odds with that very same media that regularly defames people and recants.



SirRumpole said:


> Cordeaux ran a talkback program.
> If people didn't like what he said they could ring him up and say so.
> His former employers were gutless to sack him.



His former employer will have been advised of the legal liability of Cordeaux's commentary and acted accordingly.
You seem to think that hosting a talkback program indemnifies Cordeaux from the law.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> Higgins is not "silly" and not "little".  Nor is she a "girl".  These are defamatory imputations.
> Getting drunk is not of itself an offence, but getting raped is a crime.
> Rapists are often opportunists and don't necessarily rely on their victims to be drunk in order to rape them.
> You are falling into the same trap of victim blaming as Cordeaux.
> ...




No, I think they are just being PC.

The feminazis have frightened the cr@p out of anyone who dares criticise a woman for anything.

I don't think he actually implied BH wasn't raped, he was just asking questions about the case.

If the public can't explore issues in a democracy without being shut down, then freedom of speech is worthless.


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No, I think they are just being PC.
> 
> The feminazis have frightened the cr@p out of anyone who dares criticise a woman for anything.
> 
> ...



Your views are anachronistic and fail to acknowledge the defamatory nature of Cordeaux's commentary.
This was not a case of the public exploring any particular issues.  It was a plain and simple case of a public broadcaster making false comments about a person already in the media spotlight, adding an inference that being drunk leads to rape.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> Your views are anachronistic and fail to acknowledge the defamatory nature of Cordeaux's commentary.
> This was not a case of the public exploring any particular issues.  It was a plain and simple case of a public broadcaster making false comments about a person already in the media spotlight, adding an inference that being drunk leads to rape.




It's not defamatory to express an opinion.

Look it up.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> Higgins is not "silly" and not "little".  Nor is she a "girl".  These are defamatory imputations.
> *Getting drunk is not of itself an offence,* but getting raped is a crime.
> *Rapists are often opportunists and don't necessarily rely on their victims to be drunk in order to rape them*.
> You are falling into the same trap of victim blaming as Cordeaux.
> ...



That is the crux of the whole matter, rapes as with most crimes, are mainly crimes of opportunity.

It isn't a crime to leave the front door of your house open when you go to the shops, but it is a lack of taking reasonable responsibility to protect your property.

It isn't a crime to leave your keys in your car when not in attendance, but if it is stolen the insurance company can refuse to pay out, due to not taking adequate personal responsibility for the security of the vehicle.

With a lot of things in life, there is a requirement to apply good judgement and take personal responsibility to minimise risk, as I have repeatedly said there are a lot of people out there who are not nice and will take the opportunity when it presents.
Was she silly?, did she act immaturely?
Did she deserve to get raped? NO, did she take reasonable steps to avoid putting herself in danger? NO, should the rapist be put in jail if found guilty? YES.

You are falling into the trap which is common today, which is educating the next generation to take no personal responsibility for their actions and just find someone to blame when $hit happens.
There are nasty people out there, there always will be nasty people out there, taking no personal responsibility for your safety and relying on the fact it shouldn't happen to me isn't a plan.

Like I have already said , we see things differently.


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is the crux of the whole matter, rapes as with most crimes, are mainly crimes of opportunity.
> 
> It isn't a crime to leave the front door of your house open when you go to the shops, but it is a lack of taking reasonable responsibility to protect your property.
> 
> ...



Rapes are mostly crimes of power, seeking best opportunity.
Of itself, it isn't a crime to be drunk.
And the idea that one would not not be safe in the highly secure areas of Parliament House where access was restricted defeats your sense that Higgins was not minimising risk.  Higgins was also with people she knew and, apparently, trusted.
This is a matter with clear particulars and you are confusing it with general statements which are barely relevant.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> Rapes are mostly crimes of power, seeking best opportunity.
> Of itself, it isn't a crime to be drunk.
> And the idea that one would not not be safe in the highly secure areas of Parliament House where access was restricted defeats your sense that Higgins was not minimising risk.  Higgins was also with people she knew and, apparently, trusted.
> This is a matter with clear particulars and you are confusing it with general statements which are barely relevant.



We are discussing the radio announcers sacking, not the actual rape, the radio announcer said the girl was silly to get drunk to the point of being incompetent, that is IMO accurate.
So sacking him, in effect, condones people behaving in an irresponsible manner.
I certainly hope the alternative, which is to make all criminals act respectfully and honestly, works out well for the PC crowd. 
I give you another tip, ask any young lady who works in an office environment, if they would go to a work do and get drunk to the point of being paralytic.
I know I have asked my daughters.
.As for being safe in Parliament house, we are finding out that Parliament house is no different to anywhere else, crimes happen where opportunity presents.
Would you leave your Rolex, on the dashboard of your car with the windows down, in the secure Parliament house car park? if there were no security camera's?


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not defamatory to express an opinion.
> 
> Look it up.



Cordeaux made comments which were factually false.
How do you construe false claims as mere "*opinion*"?


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> We are discussing the radio announcers sacking, not the actual rape, the radio announcer said the girl was silly to get drunk to the point of being incompetent, that is IMO accurate.
> So sacking him, in effect, condones people behaving in an irresponsible manner.



The radio announcer made specific comments about Higgins which were not true, and made further inferences, including comments about rape.
Given the specific comments made, Higgins' circumstances are what are relevant.  How is it risky to return to one of the most secure buildings in Australia where access to the room she was in was further restricted to people she had to have known?
It seems more the case that Higgins acted very responsibly by putting herself at least risk, irrespective of whether or not she was drunk.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> The radio announcer made specific comments about Higgins which were not true, and made further inferences, including comments about rape.
> Given the specific comments made, Higgins' circumstances are what are relevant.  How is it risky to return to one of the most secure buildings in Australia where access to the room she was in was further restricted to people she had to have known?
> It seems more the case that Higgins acted very responsibly by putting herself at least risk, irrespective of whether or not she was drunk.



As per usual we see things differently, so be it.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> *Cordeaux made comments which were factually false.*
> How do you construe false claims as mere "*opinion*"?



That is your *opinion, *his comments haven't been tested.
Until something is tested it is only opinion, as was shown in the Israel Falou incident, when RA didn't want to test it and apologised with compensation.
Which by the way you were just as adamant about.


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is your *opinion, *his comments haven't been tested.
> Until something is tested it is only opinion, as was shown in the Israel Falou incident, when RA didn't want to test it and apologised with compensation.
> Which by the way you were just as adamant about.



There are no reasonable measures that support Cordeaux's contentions that Higgins is *silly, little, *or a* girl*.
Courts do not require the obvious to be tested.
Nevertheless, what evidence did Cordeaux rely on in making those statements such that they could be tested?
What are you suggesting?


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> There are no reasonable measures that support Cordeaux's contentions that Higgins is *silly, little, *or a* girl*.
> Courts do not require the obvious to be tested.
> Nevertheless, *what evidence did Cordeaux rely on in making those statements such that they could be tested*?
> What are you suggesting?



By her own admission that she was paralytic.

Silly: having or showing a lack of common sense or judgement.

little: is subjective, so therefore not quantifiable.

Girl: a young or relatively young woman. ( again subjective term).


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (31 March 2021)

While not wishing to come to judgement, all these matters have been covered before in Classical Antiquity.

The gods behaved well and badly, men behaved well and badly, women behaved well and badly. 

I am presently just finished  reading the Iliad and plan to move on to the Odyssey soon, and then the Roman texts.

Believe me, in the pantheon of humanity this is quite a small ripple, from a small stone, in the pool of human matters.

gg


rederob said:


> Higgins is not "silly" and not "little".  Nor is she a "girl".  These are defamatory imputations.
> Getting drunk is not of itself an offence, but getting raped is a crime.
> Rapists are often opportunists and don't necessarily rely on their victims to be drunk in order to rape them.
> You are falling into the same trap of victim blaming as Cordeaux.
> ...


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> By her own admission that she was paralytic.
> 
> Silly: having or showing a lack of common sense or judgement.
> 
> ...



She admits to being drunk - we have been over that many times.
She returned to one of Australia's safest buildings, to a room further restricted to people she would have known and, presumably, trusted, thereby showing excellent judgement despite her state.
*Little **is *quantifiable as its very existence as a word implies smallness.
*Girl *is ambiguous, except it also relies on context for meaning, and in in this case Cordeaux used the run on phrase "*little girl*", which she is not.
Cordeaux's sacking was well advised and it will be interesting to see if Higgins issues his former employer a *concerns notice*.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> She admits to being drunk - we have been over that many times.
> She returned to one of Australia's safest buildings, to a room further restricted to people she would have known and, presumably, trusted, thereby showing excellent judgement despite her state.



Most rapes are perpetrated by someone known to the victim, this is a well known fact and obviously a reason people need to be vigilant.




__





						Acquaintance rape - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



From the report:
_Most rapes are perpetrated by a person known to the victim; however, it is less likely to be reported than stranger rape and thus crime statistics often underestimate the prevalence of acquaintance rape compared to national surveys. The legal consequences of acquaintance rape are the same as for stranger rap_e.


rederob said:


> *Little **is *quantifiable as its very existence as a word implies smallness.



A 5'4" person is little compared to a 7' tall person, whereas the same 5'4" person is tall compared to a 3' tall person, therefore someone I call little may not be little in your eyes.
So it isn't quantifiable it is subjective and up to the persons personal judgement and what they are personally comparing it to in their mental image.
Little is only quantifiable when the object it is being compared to is stated e.g a mouse is little compared to an elephant, bug huge when compared to an ant.
Therefore Cordeaux saying she is little, is his opinion and not quantifiable. 


rederob said:


> *Girl *is ambiguous, except it also relies on context for meaning, and in in this case Cordeaux used the run on phrase "*little girl*", which she is not.
> Cordeaux's sacking was well advised and it will be interesting to see if Higgins issues his former employer a *concerns notice*.



She is a 'little girl' in his eyes and unless there is a official standard for "little" and "girl", he has every right to use his judgement when allocating the terms as they are general in nature.
What will be of greater interest will be if Cordeaux decides to pursue it.IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> *Cordeaux made comments which were factually false.*
> How do you construe false claims as mere "*opinion*"?




What were they ?


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Most rapes are perpetrated by someone known to the victim, this is a well known fact and obviously a reason people need to be vigilant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are clutching at straws.
If you are drunk and seek refuge in a very safe building with levels of restricted access and regular security patrols, then it's a nonsense to suggest that action was silly or irresponsible.
If you want to keep claiming it's ok to regard Higgins as a little girl, then you are welcome to that baseless idea.  People on juries are ordinary citizens and have no difficulty differentiating between a *little girl* and a grown woman.  They do not need "official standards" when exercising common sense.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> If you want to keep claiming it's ok to regard Higgins as a little girl, then you are welcome to that baseless idea.




I'm certainly not saying that, I'm saying it's a matter of opinion and not defamatory.

I just don't think it's ok to wipe people out of employment for disagreeing with me, unlike some here. 

Brittany Higgins could simply reply that Cordeaux was a silly old man.

Would that be defamatory ?


----------



## rederob (31 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm certainly not saying that, I'm saying it's a matter of opinion and not defamatory.
> 
> I just don't think it's ok to wipe people out of employment for disagreeing with me, unlike some here.
> 
> ...



No reasonable person would regard Higgins as a " silly little girl" so in the context of Cordeaux's remarks it's a defamatory imputation.
Moreover, Cordeaux's comments were wholly pointed and a slight on Higgins.  His employer knew this and took immediate action.
Cordeaux has continued his victim shaming and this is a disgrace to broadcasting:


Cordeaux is welcome to give advice and provide opinions.
However, once he names a person whose circumstances are known and makes reckless commentary, then he leaves himself wide open. Higgins definitely did not "put <herself> in harms way" as Cordeaux continues to suggest was the case, and he thinks that comments which can be contradicted by facts still constitute "opinion".  Raping a drunk woman who has sought refuge is not a matter that most people would find "controversial", as Cordeaux suggests.  It's a crime.  He seems not to grasp that fundamental aspect of the matter.  Indeed, his focus seems to be about drunkenness as invitation to do as you please to another.

Is Cordeaux a "silly old man"?
After 58 years in broadcasting he failed to grasp that naming and shaming someone without appreciating the specific circumstances or correctly attributing the person's characteristics, can come at a cost.  He remains unrepentant!


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> You are clutching at straws.
> If you are drunk and seek refuge in a very safe building with levels of restricted access and regular security patrols, then it's a nonsense to suggest that action was silly or irresponsible.
> If you want to keep claiming it's ok to regard Higgins as a little girl, then you are welcome to that baseless idea.  People on juries are ordinary citizens and have no difficulty differentiating between a *little girl* and a grown woman.  They do not need "official standards" when exercising common sense.



Well we shall have to wait and see if either party pursues for a settlement.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2021)

rederob said:


> No reasonable person would regard Higgins as a " silly little girl" so in the context of Cordeaux's remarks it's a defamatory imputation.
> Moreover, Cordeaux's comments were wholly pointed and a slight on Higgins.  His employer knew this and took immediate action.
> Cordeaux has continued his victim shaming and this is a disgrace to broadcasting:
> 
> ...





Not a fan of Voltaire then Robbie ?


----------



## basilio (12 April 2021)

*Justice delayed is justice denied*

Seems that the NSW Police had a  wide number of opportunities to take a statement from the Christian Porter's rape accuser - but managed to miss them all.

Stinks..

NSW police passed up SA offer to take statement alleging sexual assault against Christian Porter​Request to travel interstate to take accuser’s statement was rejected in March 2020 because it was not deemed essential, documents reveal





Former attorney general Christian Porter has strenuously denied an allegation of raping a woman when she was 16 and he was 17.  Photograph: Dan Himbrechts/AAP

Paul Karp

@Paul_Karp
Mon 12 Apr 2021 05.00 AEST
Last modified on Mon 12 Apr 2021 06.47 A

New South Wales police passed up an offer by South Australian police to take a statement alleging sexual assault against Christian Porter – apparently without putting the option to the alleged victim – new documents reveal.
The documents, produced to the NSW Legislative Council after a motion by the MP David Shoebridge, reveal how a request to travel interstate to take the statement was rejected in March 2020 because it was not deemed essential.

They also show the NSW police rejected a request from Porter’s accuser to take her statement via Skype and alternatives were not pursued because the alleged victim seemed “resigned” to Covid-19 interruptions to travel delaying it until September.
Shoebridge told Guardian Australia the documents show the NSW police “made two separate decisions to delay taking a statement, neither of which appears to have had a valid basis”.









						NSW police passed up SA offer to take statement alleging sexual assault against Christian Porter
					

Request to travel interstate to take accuser’s statement was rejected in March 2020 because it was not deemed essential, documents reveal




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (12 April 2021)

*As usual it is 4 Corners* that will be highlighting how instructions from the top in the NSW Police force stopped the rape victim from giving a formal statement.









						New documents reveal detectives were denied trip to interview Christian Porter accuser
					

NSW detectives investigating the historical rape allegation against former attorney-general Christian Porter were denied permission to travel to South Australia to interview the complainant by the state's Police Deputy Commissioner David Hudson.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2021)

basilio said:


> *As usual it is 4 Corners* that will be highlighting how instructions from the top in the NSW Police force stopped the rape victim from giving a formal statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why couldn't it have been done over Skype ?


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Why couldn't it have been done over Skype ?



Reading through the articles on the internet, it sounds as though the alleged victim was interviewed on numerous occasions, by the S.A police. 
So there should be plenty of information to investigate, my guess is that as soon as the accused mentioned who the attacker was,the issue would have been escalated.


----------



## basilio (12 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Why couldn't it have been done over Skype ?



Indeed.  Or in South Australia as the South Australian police had offered.
Just stinks of political interference.

And these revelations should reinforce a more general inquiry into the issue. And one of the first items should be examining why it was not examined properly in the first place.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

Yet another media defamation case, where the media has settled, it is becoming monotonous with its regularity IMO.









						John Hewson, Nine settle defamation suit over A Current Affair broadcast
					

A four-day trial was expected to start in the Federal Court on Monday, with Dr Hewson’s lawyers to argue the broadcast made six defamatory claims.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Former federal Liberal leader John Hewson and Nine have settled a defamation lawsuit over a broadcast of _A Current Affair_ on the eve of a four-day trial.

Dr Hewson filed Federal Court defamation proceedings against Nine, the publisher of this masthead, in June last year over a May 18 broadcast relating to GSA Insurance Brokers, a company he chaired. He is now an advisor to the board.
Justice Wigney vacated the hearing and congratulated the parties on settling the matter.

Dr Hewson’s lawyers had said in court documents that_ ACA_ was told prior to broadcast that GSA Insurance Brokers was an insurance broker and not the insurer, which meant it was “not even the decision-maker” on claims.

In the Federal Court last year, Nine’s barrister Lyndelle Barnett said the “primary issue” in the case was the meanings conveyed by the broadcast. Nine denied any of the six defamatory imputations pleaded by Dr Hewson’s lawyers were conveyed.

Justice Michael Wigney told Dr Hewson and Nine last year that he hoped “for the parties’ sake, the matter settles”.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2021)

And another one..









						Buried evidence and threats: How Ben Roberts-Smith tried to cover up his alleged crimes
					

Australia’s most decorated soldier tried to hide shameful images and apparent evidence of war crimes. Now they have been unearthed.




					www.theage.com.au
				












						Soldiers to oppose document release in Ben Roberts-Smith defamation case
					

Two Australian soldiers expected to be called as witnesses by Victoria Cross recipient Ben Roberts-Smith in a defamation trial against media are set to oppose the proposed release of documents about their own conduct in Afghanistan.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And another one..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes it will be interesting to see how that one unfolds, there seems to be a lot of pictures showing a booze up, but is that a war crime?
I certainly hope the media get enough mileage out of these cases, the courts will eventually get fed up and really start to dish out some fines, for both sides IMO, for bogging down the justice system. 😂
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04...ies-60-minutes-allegations-baseless/100062286
From the article:
_Mr Roberts-Smith is suing Nine newspapers over a series of 2018 stories alleging he committed war crimes in Afghanistan.

In a statement, he denied that he engaged in any unlawful conduct, saying the allegations are not supported by evidence._



> _"These allegations were not put to Mr Roberts-Smith prior to being broadcast on 60 Minutes and published in the Nine newspapers," a representative for him said._



_"Had Mr McKenzie or Nine wished to engage in impartial or objective journalism, they would have sought Mr Roberts-Smith's comment."

Mr Roberts-Smith said he would not be "intimidated" by Nine or journalist Nick McKenzie into dropping the defamation action against them._

*Nine also obtained alleged secret recordings of Mr Roberts-Smith in which he appeared to say he was indebted to his media mogul boss Kerry Stokes and vowed to destroy journalists publishing stories about him*.


Wow that last statement is Earth shattering.😂

Him saying he will destroy the journalists, is bad, but the journalists trying to destroy him, isn't? 😜


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And another one..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is in today's paper.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/ben...2-p57if9.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true
From the article:
_The new evidence includes letters Mr Roberts-Smith allegedly placed in sealed envelopes and planned to send anonymously to SAS soldiers he feared would testify against him at a war crimes inquiry.

The AFP has also uncovered the existence of at least five “burner” phones that the Victoria Cross recipient arranged to be purchased in 2018, according to records sighted by The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Authorities have identified multiple Optus and Telstra SIM cards purchased for use in burner phones belonging to Mr Roberts-Smith in 2018 and 2019.
A joint investigation by The Age, the Heraldand 60 Minutes revealed allegations that Mr Roberts-Smith, an accused war criminal, dug a hole in the backyard of his Queensland house and buried USB drives inside a pink plastic children’s lunchbox, hiding them from both police and military investigations. The USB drives contained images of bad behaviour by soldiers at a makeshift bar in Afghanistan, as well as classified documents and videos.

The images on the USBs buried by Mr Roberts-Smith included photographs showing a senior commissioned Special Air Services Regiment commanding officer simulating a sex act with a high-ranking soldier using an object taken from a model camel_.

I wonder if the media will be calling up the camel, to give evidence?
I reckon if he wins the defamation case, the payout will be eye watering.


----------



## basilio (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> This is in today's paper.
> https://www.smh.com.au/national/ben...2-p57if9.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true
> From the article:
> _The new evidence includes letters Mr Roberts-Smith allegedly placed in sealed envelopes and planned to send anonymously to SAS soldiers he feared would testify against him at a war crimes inquiry.
> ...




Seriously ?  After reading that story I think Andrew Roberts-Smith is half way to a long jail stretch. Intimidating witnesses, conning police into a massive home raid on a potential witness - not to mention what actually happened in Afghanistan on the ground.

Very ugly indeed. Going to be interesting to see how long Kerry Stokes supports him - or gets dragged down.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

basilio said:


> Seriously ?  After reading that story I think Andrew Roberts-Smith is half way to a long jail stretch.
> It will be interesting, to see if you are proven right


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2021)

basilio said:


> Seriously ?  After reading that story I think Andrew Roberts-Smith is half way to a long jail stretch. Intimidating witnesses, conning police into a massive home raid on a potential witness - not to mention what actually happened in Afghanistan on the ground.
> 
> Very ugly indeed. Going to be interesting to see how long Kerry Stokes supports him - or gets dragged down.



The Age and SMH are certainly cranking it up a notch, it is all going to come to a head soon, Stokes now accused of funding Smith with shareholder money.
ATM I'm seeing a lot of accusations of bad behaviour, but as for war crimes, there doesn't seem to be a lot, also the photo's presented seem to show Smith in attendance, but don't actually show him doing much.
The other thing with 'burner phones', they seem to be inferring that having more than one SIM card indicates criminal behaviour, I have a few and they aren't used for criminal behaviour.
Seems to be a lot of finger pointing and mud slinging, but doesn't appear to a lot of war crime stuff, certainly getting exciting.
It will end up in tears for one side, which one will be very interesting.
As you say Smith could end up in jail, or the media could end up with one of the biggest payouts in history IMO.


----------



## Humid (13 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The Age and SMH are certainly cranking it up a notch, it is all going to come to a head soon, Stokes now accused of funding Smith with shareholder money.
> ATM I'm seeing a lot of accusations of bad behaviour, but as for war crimes, there doesn't seem to be a lot, also the photo's presented seem to show Smith in attendance, but don't actually show him doing much.
> The other thing with 'burner phones', they seem to be inferring that having more than one SIM card indicates criminal behaviour, I have a few and they aren't used for criminal behaviour.
> Seems to be a lot of finger pointing and mud slinging, but doesn't appear to a lot of war crime stuff, certainly getting exciting.
> ...




You have burner phones ?
Tell me more 007


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2021)

Humid said:


> You have burner phones ?
> Tell me more 007



Apparently that is what they call it, if you have more than one SIM card, the media love to dramatise hey Maxwell. 
I have two in my phone and one in my dongle. 😂  😂  😂


----------



## basilio (13 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The Age and SMH are certainly cranking it up a notch, it is all going to come to a head soon, Stokes now accused of funding Smith with shareholder money.
> ATM I'm seeing a lot of accusations of bad behaviour, but as for war crimes, there doesn't seem to be a lot, also the photo's presented seem to show Smith in attendance, but don't actually show him doing much.
> The other thing with 'burner phones', they seem to be inferring that having more than one SIM card indicates criminal behaviour, I have a few and they aren't used for criminal behaviour.
> Seems to be a lot of finger pointing and mud slinging, but doesn't appear to a lot of war crime stuff, certainly getting exciting.
> ...




SP I wasn't even going into the war crimes stories. The issues that caught my eye were Intimidating witnesses, conning police into a massive home raid on a potential witness. These alone represent clearly criminal behaviour.  It seemed from the reports that police were already aware of these actions.

Not to mention the burying of evidence in his backyard.

We'll see.


----------



## moXJO (13 April 2021)

They are not burner phones, unless it's in someone else's name. Whoever wrote that article was an idiot.


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2021)

basilio said:


> SP I wasn't even going into the war crimes stories. The issues that caught my eye were Intimidating witnesses, conning police into a massive home raid on a potential witness. These alone represent clearly criminal behaviour.  It seemed from the reports that police were already aware of these actions.
> 
> Not to mention the burying of evidence in his backyard.
> 
> We'll see.



But Bas, he is suing them for defamation, as they said he committed war crimes, the other stuff is peripheral 'white noise' by the media who he is suing.
Unless they have proof of his war crimes, that can stand investigation, all they are doing is digging a bigger hole.

Who buried the 'evidence' in the back yard? Was it him? Was it planted evidence gathered by the  defendant? Was it incriminatory evidence planted by one of the witnesses?
Just because the media said he buried it, doesn't make it so until proven, if it can't be proven, that is why we have a legal system.
I would assume that could be further grounds for defamation, unless it is proven he buried the evidence.
Like I keep telling you, just because the media say something, doesn't make it gospel, in a lot of cases what they say is an assumption.


----------



## moXJO (13 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> But Bas, he is suing them for defamation, as they said he committed war crimes, the other stuff is peripheral 'white noise' by the media who he is suing.
> Unless they have proof of his war crimes, that can stand investigation, all they are doing is digging a bigger hole.
> 
> Who buried the 'evidence' in the back yard? Was it him? Was it planted evidence gathered by the  defendant? Was it incriminatory evidence planted by one of the witnesses?
> ...



I want to know how they found it?

Anonymous tip would look very suss.


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2021)

If he had incriminating evidence, why wouldnt he just have destroyed it? Rather than bury it and as you say if he did bury, why would anyone go digging up the back yard, it isnt as though there is a missing body or money to warrant police man hours digging up a back yard. Very suss indeed.
How is the media getting all the 'evidence' to further their defence?
Interesting, luckily the legal system isnt as easily led, as some of the public, or  else anyone could be destroyed.
It will be an interesting case, should be highly entertaining, whichever side wins.
It will be expensive, for someone.


----------



## IFocus (13 April 2021)

basilio said:


> SP I wasn't even going into the war crimes stories. The issues that caught my eye were Intimidating witnesses, conning police into a massive home raid on a potential witness. These alone represent clearly criminal behaviour.  It seemed from the reports that police were already aware of these actions.
> 
> Not to mention the burying of evidence in his backyard.
> 
> We'll see.





I was surprised by the intimidation false accusations aimed at the witness being so easily traced back to the source. 

That behaviour asks a lot of questions.

I admire the SAS like most Australians but after seeing the lack of discipline I continually wonder why no officers were held to account.


----------



## basilio (13 April 2021)

These were the comments from The Age story  that seem to  unglue Roberts-Smith.
It is also clear from the article that a number of other soldiers had been intimidated and were now speaking up.

But we will see what happens won't we ? And I  still believe winning or losing a defamation case is the least of Roberts-Smith concerns.

_The police, though, have never downed tools. In around April 2020, the AFP sent two briefs of evidence to Commonwealth prosecutors. The briefs outline the police case that Roberts-Smith is implicated in the execution of Afghan prisoners, including one who was kicked off a small cliff in 2012.

A number of sources have also confirmed that it was some time in 2020 that federal agents covertly obtained the contents of the USBs that Roberts-Smith had buried in his backyard._
*
By the way the contents of the legally obtained phone audios of Roberts-Smith is equally damning. Check the link. *_I wonder if he will have a go The Age etc for defamation on the basis of these tapes ?_

_Related Article_​_




_
_Secrets of War_​_‘I’m going to do everything I can to f---ing destroy them’: Secret Ben Roberts-Smith audio revealed_​_Police detectives have also gathered evidence that has allowed them to trace back to Roberts-Smith the threatening letter and the emails that prompted a police raid on a Brereton Inquiry witness.









						Buried evidence and threats: How Ben Roberts-Smith tried to cover up his alleged crimes
					

Australia’s most decorated soldier tried to hide shameful images and apparent evidence of war crimes. Now they have been unearthed.




					www.theage.com.au
				



_


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2021)

basilio said:


> These were the comments from The Age story  that seem to  unglue Roberts-Smith.
> It is also clear from the article that a number of other soldiers had been intimidated and were now speaking up.
> 
> But we will see what happens won't we ? And I  still believe winning or losing a defamation case is the least of Roberts-Smith concerns.
> ...



This is getting better and better, what a great 'who dunnit', terrific stuff IMO.
Three questions I have from the article:
1 How would a corporal in the SAS get top secret drone footage, that was on the USB?

2 How did the reporter and media defendants get the 'new' information?

3 The photo's in the makeshift bar obviously weren't taken by Smith and also show him not actually doing anything lewd, so why are the photo's important ? Other than maybe to influence public opinion?








						AFP confirms probe into Ben Roberts-Smith video allegations
					

The AFP has launched a fresh investigation into the former SAS soldier for allegedly burying sensitive Defence files in his backyard.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article: (The article is from the company that is being sued, from my understanding)
_The Australian Federal Police has confirmed it has launched a fresh investigation into Ben Roberts-Smith for allegedly burying sensitive Defence files in his backyard and is treating an accusation he attempted to intimidate a witness in an investigation into war crimes “as a priority”.

The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald revealed on Wednesday the alleged war criminal kept more than a dozen Department of Defence drone videos of Afghanistan military operations buried in his backyard, including videos watermarked as “secret” and only to be shared among certain NATO forces.

The files buried by Mr Roberts-Smith in a pink, child’s lunch box included 13 videos of drone vision taken by NATO military forces in Afghanistan as well as copies of classified operational reports from a Special Air Service mission in Southern Afghanistan and contained images of soldiers misbehaving at a makeshift bar.

Mr McCartney said the AFP had opened an investigation into “aspects of that media reporting” but cautioned he would “prefer not to provide a running commentary” on the probe.
He confirmed the AFP now has access to “some material” that was in the buried USB drives.

“Some of that material was actually … referred to the AFP by the journalist in question and also by his newspaper,” he said_.


There will be a movie made about this, for sure.


----------



## Humid (15 April 2021)

I must admit its timely relief from the desk wanker and alleged bum rooter
Cant see that being a success in the box office....


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2021)

Humid said:


> I must admit its timely relief from the desk wanker and alleged bum rooter
> Cant see that being a success in the box office....



I don't know, the gay mardi gras has become really popular, there might be a movie out of those incidents also. You should audition for the bloke in the office, or the receiver, you sound well qualified for both parts. 😂


----------



## Humid (15 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know, the gay mardi gras has become really popular, there might be a movie out of those incidents also. You should audition for the bloke in the office, or the receiver, you sound well qualified for both parts. 😂



wanking credits.....


----------



## Humid (24 April 2021)

For anyone who can be bothered









						The arc of justice • Margaret Simons
					

Journalism has a different role to play from the legal system. It begins with reporting the facts as the journalist understands them




					insidestory.org.au


----------



## rederob (25 April 2021)




----------



## basilio (26 April 2021)

Humid said:


> For anyone who can be bothered
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That was an outstanding analysis of the role of journalism.  Excellent use of recent historical examples  of journalists revealing critical new information about political figures.


----------



## basilio (26 April 2021)

On the topic of investigative journalism check out the work of IF Stone.

He was a one man band who wrote a weekly newsletter in the US from 1953 to 1971 and through  meticulous research exposed many of the lies of US administrations . He is regarded as the best investigative reporter of the 20th Century.

Moore — who before he started making movies ran “Moore’s Weekly,” an homage to Stone’s one-man magazine, “I.F. Stone’s Weekly” — says this:



> I can draw a line from I.F. Stone directly to what I’m doing now … He played such an important role in inspiring me to think a different way. What his “Weekly” taught me was that it didn’t need to be fancy, it didn’t need to have a lot of production value. It just needed to tell the truth, and tell me things that I’m not going to learn anyplace else … His great motto [was] “All governments are run by liars and nothing they say should be believed,” [but] he said to me, “I would expand that now to governments, corporations, it’s not just the government, it’s anybody in power.”



Greenwald, co-founding editor of _The Intercept_, describes his reaction when he first read Stone’s writing:


> Somebody had recommended highly that I begin reading what I.F. Stone’s journalism was about, and sent me a couple of links. And I read the first two and I was so blown away by them, I just instantly became almost an addict of the newsletters … and just began reading one after the next and didn’t stop until a month later when I had read not dozens but probably hundreds.




Scahill, also co-founding editor of _The Intercept_, blurbs Stone like this:



> There are few people I can think of in American history that better represented the best journalism in a democratic society than I.F. Stone.




And here’s Stone’s own description of what he did:


> I made no claim to inside stuff … I tried to give information which could be documented so the reader could check it for himself. I tried to dig the truth out of hearings, official transcripts and government documents, and to be as accurate as possible. I also sought to give the Weekly a personal flavor, to add humor, wit and good writing to the Weekly report. I felt that if one were able enough and had sufficient vision one could distill meaning, truth and even beauty from the swiftly flowing debris of the week’s news … the bit of dialogue, the overlooked fact, the buried observation which illuminated the realities of the situation. I tried in every issue to provide fact and opinion not available elsewhere in the press.












						Video: I.F. Stone’s One Weird Trick to Do Great Journalism
					

I.F. Stone was one of the greatest investigative journalists of the 20th century, and a hero to many in the 21st.




					theintercept.com


----------



## basilio (26 April 2021)

IF Stone.  Background.
He had a very modest readership. But they were influential people and the stories he broke made the Feds. sit up and take notice.











__





						The Official Website of I.F. Stone
					





					www.ifstone.org


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2021)

A pretty frightening case for those interested in finding the truth.









						Prosecutors refuse to drop case against ATO whistleblower Richard Boyle
					

Commonwealth prosecutors have refused to drop charges against former public servant-turned-whistleblower Richard Boyle.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (30 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A pretty frightening case for those interested in finding the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The truth was found.
And, it was found the law was broken .


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2021)

rederob said:


> The truth was found.
> And, it was found the law was broken .




The thoughts of Chairman rob .


----------



## rederob (30 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The thoughts of Chairman rob .



Well, I liked your link.
But it was about "revealing" the truth, and the cost that can be attached to it.
Don't you just love democracy?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2021)

rederob said:


> Don't you just love democracy?




Better than the alternative.


----------



## rederob (30 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Better than the alternative.



I guess that depends where you live, like the bastion of democracy:




Or America's competitor.
Or maybe Australia:
"The Australian Election Survey [2019] of more than 2,100 Australians has found just 25 per cent believed people in government could be trusted."​


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2021)

rederob said:


> I guess that depends where you live, like the bastion of democracy:
> View attachment 123544
> 
> Or America's competitor.
> ...




Yes, but we can change the government if we are interested enough.


----------



## rederob (30 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but we can change the government if we are interested enough.



We can change the party, but not the system.
USA and Australia with 25% or less trusting their government is not particularly inspiring, is it?
Americans would not even impeach a President who incited insurrection.
But I digress - wrong thread.

Our system of government allows for discretions in the public interest.  In the case you cited why isn't the public interest test being followed by the CDPP?  
Given Hon Michaelia Cash is our _Attorney_-_General _I can understand why Boyle is being pursued.  Nothing to do with the concept of justice, and barely consistent with the law!


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2021)

rederob said:


> Our system of government allows for discretions in the public interest. In the case you cited why isn't the public interest test being followed by the CDPP?




My thoughts exactly. 

It's a simple case of precedent. We (they) don't want others embarrassing the government so they must be taught a lesson.


----------



## IFocus (30 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A pretty frightening case for those interested in finding the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Its mind boggling that its so public and in your face.


----------



## Joe Blow (30 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A pretty frightening case for those interested in finding the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is an appalling injustice. I can't believe it is happening is this country, and to a whistleblower who was just trying to do some good.


----------



## rederob (30 April 2021)

Joe Blow said:


> This is an appalling injustice. I can't believe it is happening is this country, and to a whistleblower who was just trying to do some good.



We have a caring government:


----------



## Humid (6 May 2021)

Tis is going to get nasty









						Alleged rapist Christian Porter’s defamation case against the ABC is in crisis as his lawyers try to hide evidence so the public do not know the truthKangaroo Court of Australia
					

A federal court statement to the media says Christian Porter’s lawyers are in negotiations with the ABC lawyers to suppress the ABC’s defence and evidence but the reality is it is almos…




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2021)

Humid said:


> Tis is going to get nasty
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As we say, the truth has a way of coming out.


----------



## basilio (6 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As we say, the truth has a way of coming out.




Perhaps.. Hopefully.. And anyway in the political world of 2021 "truth" and "fact" are in short supply.  The  previous President of the United States still insists he is the rightful President and non one seems capable of stopping this travesty.

 Anyway it seems that the Right Honourable Christian Porter  (?) may have settled a number of previous sexual abuse allegations with non disclosure agreements. And now these may come to light ? 

Clearly, given the zeal of the Right Honourable Christian Porter to protect his good name, we have to wait for the appropriate legal outcome before speculating on just what have have transpired in Christian Porters history and how these impact on any statemenst he has made to date.  ( Or if in fact the Government cares..)

Lets just hope this coincides with justice.


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> This is getting better and better, what a great 'who dunnit', terrific stuff IMO.



Channel 9 have dropped the murder claim, from the Roberts Smith defamation case, obviously it is starting to unravel to a degree.





__





						No Cookies | Herald Sun
					

No Cookies




					www.heraldsun.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

Interesting story @SirRumpole, from memory I thought the media said that Ben Roberts Smith backyard was dug up by the AFP and a child's lunchbox was found with incriminating USB drives evidence in it.
We questioned why the police would dig up a backyard in a defamation case and that it sounded like a set up.
Now it sounds like a completely different story.








						Lawyers accuse Ben Roberts-Smith of wiping laptop in legal fight
					

Ben Roberts-Smith has been accused of wiping a laptop that potentially held critical evidence as his courtroom showdown with Nine newspapers nears.




					www.news.com.au
				



From the article:
_When Nine’s lawyers issued a notice to produce the external drives, they were told that the information had been transferred to a computer_.

_The court has previously been told that Mr Roberts-Smith buried a USB drive inside a pink children’s laptop in his backyard.

It was alleged in a report that the USB contained classified documents and videos that could relate to alleged war crimes.

The court was told that Mr Roberts-Smith removed the USB from his backyard in June last year_.

And some people wonder why I'm always having a go at the media, for bending the information, there is a hell of a lot of difference in the implication between the two scenarios. In the original article, the media said the AFP already had the contents of the USB drives and were conducting an investigation, which by the wording would have a huge bearing on the public's perception of guilt IMO.


Here is the wording from the original article:








						Buried evidence and threats: How Ben Roberts-Smith tried to cover up his alleged crimes
					

Australia’s most decorated soldier tried to hide shameful images and apparent evidence of war crimes. Now they have been unearthed.




					www.theage.com.au
				





_Instead, the sources say, Roberts-Smith dug a hole in the backyard of his house in the Sunshine Coast hinterland and buried the USB drives inside a pink plastic children’s lunchbox to hide them from both police and military investigations.

Once the Victoria Cross recipient had filled in the hole, he placed a rock on top to mark the spot.

According to multiple sources familiar with the matter, federal police who are conducting war crimes investigations into the war hero, have since obtained the contents of the USBs_.

As I said, this is going to get very interesting and expensive.


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

basilio said:


> Perhaps.. Hopefully.. And anyway in the political world of 2021 "truth" and "fact" are in short supply.  The  previous President of the United States still insists he is the rightful President and non one seems capable of stopping this travesty.
> 
> Anyway it seems that the Right Honourable Christian Porter  (?) may have settled a number of previous sexual abuse allegations with non disclosure agreements. And now these may come to light ?
> 
> ...



Maybe Bas, the loony left think they can make Australia better than the best, because they have this underlying need to prove something( prove we can stop DV, prove we can stop Indigenous incarceration and crime rates, stop violence, stop theft, stop crime.

Well they have been able to support this utopian belief, on the back of the hard working never say die work ethic of an aging population, that tried hard worked hard and now are criticised.

I hope the young idealistic cotton wool generation, can carry the burden they are placing on themselves.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

basilio said:


> Seriously ?  After reading that story I think Andrew Roberts-Smith is half way to a long jail stretch. Intimidating witnesses, conning police into a massive home raid on a potential witness - not to mention what actually happened in Afghanistan on the ground.
> 
> Very ugly indeed. Going to be interesting to see how long Kerry Stokes supports him - or gets dragged down.



So quick to judge Bas, another example of our brilliant media. 🤣 








						Nine drops claim soldier Ben Roberts-Smith murdered Afghan man in 2012
					

Nine drops a claim that Australian SAS soldier Ben Roberts-Smith murdered an Afghan man in 2012 as it prepares its final defence in a landmark defamation trial.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
That defence, which was previously tendered to court, related to the alleged "execution of an unarmed Afghan".

The media company had claimed Mr Roberts-Smith crossed the Helmand River in search of the "unarmed man" he believed was fleeing as Australian forces approached the area, before shooting him dead at close range.
During a previous hearing in the Federal Court in 2019, counsel for Mr Roberts-Smith, Bruce McClintok QC said the sum of the allegations were "extraordinarily grave".

He raised the example of the man who was shot dead near the Helmand River, stating he was not "unarmed" as Nine was set to claim, but was equipped with detonators and an AK-47.

"My client took off his body armour and his pack and with only his weapon and a medical kit, swam across the river onto the land to the rocks, killing him," he said.

"On him, he had an AK-47… he also had detonators which were significant because they had never seen that kind of detonator in Afghanistan before, presumably foreign made.

"My client took the body down the river so it could be photographed.

"He's accused of killing an unarmed man. So far as being unarmed, my client put on display the AK-47 in the patrol room at Tarinkot…"


----------



## basilio (28 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> So quick to judge Bas, another example of our brilliant media. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...




SP if your going to quote a story perhaps you could acknowledge all the  material rather than pick the lines you want to run ? 
Mr Roberts-Smith has many  horrific and credible accusations  against him as the ABC story notes.  And these were echoed by the Defence Forces investigation. 

The defamation trial will establish how much evidence can be brought to bear.

From the ABC story.
_
The killing was not raised in the original articles published by Nine's newspapers but was set to form part of its defence.
It is also separate from another allegation first raised in the media articles over the killing of Afghan civilian Ali Jan.
Nine's newspapers claimed Ali Jan was handcuffed and kicked off a cliff by Mr Roberts-Smith before being shot dead by another soldier_.






						Reports, allegations and inquiries into serious misconduct by Australian troops in Afghanistan 2005–2013
					

.tble-header { background-color: #bc9a89 !important; } .tan-shade { background-color: #fbf6f3 !important; } .brown-shade { background-color: #f1e1d7 !important; } .green-shade { background-color: #e9e6d7 !important; } #migrated>.box>table { overflow-x: inherit; }   9 November 20




					www.aph.gov.au


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

basilio said:


> SP if your going to quote a story perhaps you could acknowledge all the  material rather than pick the lines you want to run ?
> Mr Roberts-Smith has many  horrific and credible accusations  against him as the ABC story notes.  And these were echoed by the Defence Forces investigation.
> 
> The defamation trial will establish how much evidence can be brought to bear.
> ...



Bas that doesn't change the fact, it was put forward as evidence and had to be removed as it was erroneous, that 'evidence' is supposed to be the result of an investigative report.
The remainder of the allegations are yet to be tested in court, so at this point they are just allegations, the point I put forward is the media admit to having part of it wrong.
It shows how much investigation was made to confirm the authenticity, one would hope the remainder of their allegations can bear examination, meanwhile he is presumed guilty by yourself and a large portion of the public due to a media article.
I certainly hope there isn't cause for yourself or myself to be the focus of media attention, a lot of damage can done, before they have their claims tested, as was proven by Geoffrey Rush, John Jarratt and Craig McLachlan.
Many believe unwaveringly in what the media write, as you have shown.
I think until it is proven, it is just slanderous allegations. 
If and when it is proven, charges will no doubt be laid, if it is proven incorrect money will be paid and someones reputation has meanwhile been destroyed.
One of the other claims does stand out as being shaky, apparently he is meant to have kicked a handcuffed civilian off a cliff, now it comes out some else apparently shot him, so was it the cliff that killed him?, was it someone shooting him afterwards, or was it all fabricated?
_It is also separate from another allegation first raised in the media articles over the killing of Afghan civilian Ali Jan.

Nine's newspapers claimed Ali Jan was handcuffed and kicked off a cliff by Mr Roberts-Smith before being shot dead by another soldier._

I'll put it another way, how would you feel if someone wrote to the press that you committed a crime and they published it rather than forwarding it to the authorities?


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

Following on from previous post, this is what was written in February:
_The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald have *alleged Mr Roberts-Smith was involved in multiple unlawful killings as an Australian soldier in Afghanistan, including that of Ali Jan, a farmer who in 2012 was kicked off a cliff while handcuffed and then shot dead*. Mr Roberts-Smith is also alleged to have ordered soldiers in his command to shoot dead detained Afghan men_.

The inference IMO, is a lot different to what is written now:

_It is also separate from another allegation first raised in the media articles over the killing of Afghan civilian Ali Jan.

Nine's newspapers claimed* Ali Jan was handcuffed and kicked off a cliff by Mr Roberts-Smith* *before being shot dead by another soldier.*_

So in reality, now they are saying that Ben Roberts Smith, kicked a handcuffed man, who obviously survived because it may have been a small mound as opposed to a cliff.
What is the old saying? "it's how you say it"
So Bas now I have acknowledged the whole article, I just didn't want it to be long winded, when it was just meant to show the media admitted an error.
I suppose it boils down to whether you are a person who thinks the worst of everyone, or waits to hear the facts before making a judgement.
Oh and I just remembered another who successfully sued for defamation recently, John Hewson.


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

While on the subject of the media, in today's proceedings.








						‘Court proceedings are not run by the media’: Judge blasts leak of de Belin charges being dropped
					

A judge has asked how journalists were informed that the footballer’s sexual assault case would be withdrawn before a court was notified, telling lawyers that she is not pleased and noting court proceedings are not run by the media.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## IFocus (28 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe Bas, the loony left think they can make Australia better than the best, because they have this underlying need to prove something( prove we can stop DV, prove we can stop Indigenous incarceration and crime rates, stop violence, stop theft, stop crime.
> 
> Well they have been able to support this utopian belief, on the back of the hard working never say die work ethic of an aging population, that tried hard worked hard and now are criticised.
> 
> ...





I think you are living in a bubble to some degree SP my kids and their friends hold serious jobs with more responsibility,  work far harder, longer hours and get paid less than I did as a tradesman back in the day... pretty much thanks to your Liberal Party.


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> I think you are living in a bubble to some degree SP my kids and their friends hold serious jobs with more responsibility,  work far harder, longer hours and get paid less than I did as a tradesman back in the day... pretty much thanks to your Liberal Party.



That's interesting IFocus, my oldest is an underground sparkie on $160k, best mate is a garbo on $100k, daughter works 3 days a week in a library on $50k. 
So I don't know what you did back in the day, but I was a senior supervisor in SECWA in the late 80's on $35k, with 5 foreman and multi disciplines working under my supervision. 
So either you were paid really well, back in the day, or your kids are in the wrong jobs?


----------



## The Triangle (28 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> I think you are living in a bubble to some degree SP my kids and their friends hold serious jobs with more responsibility,  work far harder, longer hours and get paid less than I did as a tradesman back in the day... pretty much thanks to your Liberal Party.



Kids work harder, longer, and get less?  Sounds like poor parenting over poor government.


----------



## IFocus (29 May 2021)

The Triangle said:


> Kids work harder, longer, and get less?  Sounds like poor parenting over poor government.





Could be but its a fact that employment is less secure, more market based and ruthless than ever. 

Also a fact wages have long been supressed by government policy while they keep saying they want wages to rise...BS.

One of the few areas this mob actually have policy on not that its implicit.

That's before you get to the attack on lower wage earners and those radical unions (nurses and firemen) etc.

Meanwhile the cheer squad here keeps cheering while the house burns.


----------



## rederob (29 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's interesting IFocus, my oldest is an underground sparkie on $160k, best mate is a garbo on $100k, daughter works 3 days a week in a library on $50k.
> So I don't know what you did back in the day, but I was a senior supervisor in SECWA in the late 80's on $35k, with 5 foreman and multi disciplines working under my supervision.
> So either you were paid really well, back in the day, or your kids are in the wrong jobs?



Try using data instead of anecdote.
In the past 50 years periods of *Labor* in government have overseen increased rates of average weekly wages:






The period from 2013 onward is clearly discernible, and was the start of Abbott's reign.

The hours worked scenario is very tricky for a host of reasons.  Nevertheless, there are two overriding trends.  The first is increasing casualisation of the labour market, where a traditional 38 hour week has been replaced by a typical 35 hour week maximum.  And the second is a trend to cut out paid overtime.




The bottom line is that @IFocus is correct.  If you are a full-time worker your average hours have increased and your average wages are less.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

You could go back a bit Rob, 2008 - 2012 the Rudd/ Gillard years. 😅​*Check out the 2000 - 2008 Howard years*. 😅  😅  😅
You shouldn't be so selective with your data.  
Household incomes​Even with the gender pay gap and many women working part-time, household incomes have, on average, increased considerably over the last two decades. In the 2017/18 financial year, the average weekly household income, before tax, was $2,242, up from $1,361 in 1995/96 (Figure 2).

*Figure 2:* Average weekly household income (before tax), by household type, 1995/96 to 2017/18 to 2017-18






*Note:* Adjusted for inflation to 2017/18 dollars. Data for 2001/02 were not available. To maintain the two-year intervals, data for 2000/01 and 2002/03 were averaged as an estimate for 2001/02.
*Source:* ABS (various years - 1996 to 2019)
*Credit:* Australian Institute of Family Studies 2020


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> *Figure 2:* Average weekly household income (before tax), by household type, 1995/96 to 2017/18 to 2017-18




Does this include government benefits, family tax allowances etc or just employer pay ?

It would also be interesting to see a breakdown between public and private sectors.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Does this include government benefits, family tax allowances etc or just employer pay ?
> 
> It would also be interesting to see a breakdown between public and private sectors.




Not to nitpick but I think its a bit off topic for the thread, maybe here.






						The state of the economy at the street level
					

I don't know if Labor would have done anything sooner but to me it's worth finding out if they are better than the current mob.  Change for change sake, its happened before, but I doubt it will happen in the current climate.




					www.aussiestockforums.com


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Does this include government benefits, family tax allowances etc or just employer pay ?
> 
> It would also be interesting to see a breakdown between public and private sectors.



Robs chart shows average weekly wages, the one I posted shows household income with government subsidies.
I'm sure you can find it, there is heaps of info, when competency standards were introduced in the late 1990's, there was a wage explosion.
But as you say, getting way off topic.


----------



## rederob (29 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You could go back a bit Rob, 2008 - 2012 the Rudd/ Gillard years. 😅​*Check out the 2000 - 2008 Howard years*. 😅  😅  😅
> You shouldn't be so selective with your data.
> Household incomes​Even with the gender pay gap and many women working part-time, household incomes have, on average, increased considerably over the last two decades. In the 2017/18 financial year, the average weekly household income, before tax, was $2,242, up from $1,361 in 1995/96 (Figure 2).
> 
> ...



I went back 50 years and the data is accurate. 
Your claims were not supported.
This chart covers most of the period you referenced and shows how poorly based your claims were:




@SirRumpole also notes that family income is very different from hours average hours worked and wages.
Household incomes are simply the wrong metic to make your point.
And yes, it's off topic, except that we found the truth!


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

Lets go back to your years and see the plunge, Labor years 1980-1990. 😅 That's 50 years Rob. 

The other thing you forgot to mention, average working life wages have increased, because last time Labor were in, they gave everyone an extra two years of working life, by increasing the pension age to 67. 😅


----------



## rederob (29 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Lets go back to your years and see the plunge, Labor years 1980-1990. 😅 That's 50 years Rob.
> 
> 
> View attachment 125110



Not an appropriate metric, yet again!
You realise your post#172 and the one above counter each other, don't you?

@IFocus made the point about working longer for comparatively less.
Thats exactly what over 50 years of data on wages and hours worked proves to be the case.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Not an appropriate metric, yet again!
> You realise your post#172 and the one above counter each other, don't you?
> 
> @IFocus made the point about working longer for comparatively less.
> Thats exactly what over 50 years of data on wages and hours worked proves to be the case.



Fact: the largest fall in real wages was under Hawke.
Fact: the largest increase in retirement age was under Rudd.


----------



## rederob (29 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Fact: the largest fall in real wages was under Hawke.
> Fact: the largest increase in retirement age was under Rudd.



Real wages and nominal wages are different things, and that's why @IFocus was correct. 
Under Hawke annual wages increased by 6.7% on average.  And GDP more than doubled from Fraser's years while employment growth tripled!  
Under Morrison wages growth is another pitiful display:


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Real wages and nominal wages are different things, and that's why @IFocus was correct.
> Under Hawke annual wages increased by 6.7% on average.  And GDP more than doubled from Fraser's years while employment growth tripled!
> Under Morrison wages growth is another pitiful display:



Under Hawke wages increased by 6.7%, cpi out stripped it over the same period, which ended up with real wages being -18% over the wages accord period, as was shown in the chart I posted.
But as usual, you don't let the truth get in the way of one of your stories. 😅  😅
So maybe some actual history, rather than your spin.








						30 years on: Accord deal 'a bitter time', says Kelty
					

Setting the now historic Accord between unions and the then Labor government was ''an incredibly bitter time'', according former ACTU secretary Bill Kelty.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Mr Kelty said negotiating the Accord was an incredibly difficult process for unions and the government.

''It was very hard. You were trying to change people's ideas. The government was trying to do dramatic things for the country . . . They were trying to essentially remodel the country.

''What do you think – everybody said 'That's a nice idea - a real wage reduction would be good, can I have another one next year please'?''


Here is some articles from that era.


			https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2227&context=alr
		


Anyway as @SirRumpole said we are going way off topic and there is no way we will see it the same way, so best to move on. 
I just hope Albo brings a dose of reality back to Labor and get the grass roots members back.


----------



## rederob (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Under Hawke wages increased by 6.7%, cpi out stripped it over the same period, which ended up with real wages being -18% over the wages accord period, as was shown in the chart I posted.
> But as usual, you don't let the truth get in the way of one of your stories. 😅  😅
> So maybe some actual history, rather than your spin.
> 
> ...



@IFocus was talking about what you get paid - a nominal amount that appears in a wages packet (of bygone years) - and that's not inflation adjusted, so stop looking for a new tack.
None of your charts used the correct metric, and those you posted were contradictory, so I suspect you had no idea that the capital component of income increased under Hawke, leading to the labour component falling.
As a metric the concept of *real wages* has been overtaken by the more rigorous Wages Price Index and I tabled that above. 
Hawke's period oversaw massive economic changes and I know because I worked in Canberra while he was PM, including several years as a labour economics analyst, so I know this topic inside out.  
I can only suggest that next time you post charts you have a better idea of what they show.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

rederob said:


> @IFocus was talking about what you get paid - a nominal amount that appears in a wages packet (of bygone years) - and that's not inflation adjusted, so stop looking for a new tack.
> None of your charts used the correct metric, and those you posted were contradictory, so I suspect you had no idea that the capital component of income increased under Hawke, leading to the labour component falling.
> As a metric the concept of *real wages* has been overtaken by the more rigorous Wages Price Index and I tabled that above.
> Hawke's period oversaw massive economic changes and I know because I worked in Canberra while he was PM, including several years as a labour economics analyst, so I know this topic inside out.
> I can only suggest that next time you post charts you have a better idea of what they show.



Nonsense as usual.
I quoted Bill Kelty, who was the head of the ACTU at the time, even he in reflection knows it cost workers a lot of money.
I actually think it helped Australia at the time, as unemployment and inflation was rampant, what you got in your paypacket was not as important as what it could buy in times of high inflation.
There is no point having wage growth of 6%, if you are running 10% inflation, in 2020 ASB statistics say wage growth was 1.8% and inflation was 0.87%.
What I take exception to, is people carrying on as though only one side of politics stymies wage growth, when both sides do the same.
Both sides of politics need to be held accountable, on their performance, not on tribal hatred and bias IMO.
Fortunately the group that elects Governments is usually the swinging voter, which makes the democracy work.
There is a reason labor have only been in Government for 6 of the last 25 years, their attitude is very reflective of yours IMO, the first step in fixing a problem is recognising you have one. 
I think Albo is the first one who people trust, in a long time, criticising for the sake of criticising isn't well received by Aussies and Albo isn't going down that track. 
Interestingly neither did McGowan.


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2021)

Looks like another defamation case coming up, over false and or unproven accusation.








						Former Labor MP Emma Husar threatens legal action over sexual harassment claims
					

An unproven accusation was weaponised against Emma Husar, she says, constituting sexual harassment.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Former federal Labor MP Emma Husar is threatening legal action against the ALP for sexual harassment, arguing key people within the party leaked false claims she exposed herself to a parliamentary colleague in 2017 and forced her out of Parliament two years later.

Ms Husar says she was forced out of the ALP after a male former staffer told the party Ms Husar had repeatedly performed an underpants-less “Sharon Stone” manoeuvre in front of fellow MP Jason Clare and his young child in Mr Clare’s parliamentary office. The allegation was leaked to online news outlet _Buzzfeed_, which published the claims without seeking comment from Ms Husar.

“This is a human rights violation. I had the right to go to work, the right to be treated with respect, I had the right to be given fair consideration, you know, natural justice processes and procedural fairness, that everyone else is entitled to.

Ms Husar struck an out-of-court settlement with _Buzzfeed_ in July 2019, after launching defamation action against the publication. _Buzzfeed_ apologised for not contacting Ms Husar to offer right of reply over the August 2, 2018 article, and agreed to retract the story.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Ms Husar *says she was forced out of the ALP after a male former staffer told the party Ms Husar had repeatedly performed an underpants-less “Sharon Stone” manoeuvre* in front of fellow MP Jason Clare and his young child in Mr Clare’s parliamentary office. The allegation was leaked to online news outlet _Buzzfeed_, which published the claims without seeking comment from Ms Husar.




The other story is she was sacked because her staff reported bullying from her.









						We are not a few 'bad apples': Emma Husar's staff break their silence
					

In a letter to NSW Labor general secretary her former employees write "Ms Husar's sustained inappropriate conduct made our positions untenable".




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The other story is she was sacked because her staff reported bullying from her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Obviously litigation is the new norm.


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2021)

basilio said:


> Last week the AG Christian Porter denounced accusations of rape against him as completely false.  The accusations had been passed to the NSW Police who announced that because the person who had initially contacted them had not made a formal statement before she died there was insufficient admissible evidence to conduct any further inquiry or create any sort of criminal charge.
> 
> The case was therefore closed. On this basis the AG and the Prime Minister intend to close the inquiries and Christian Porter made an impassioned plea that  opening any other investigations was tantamount to destroying* "The Rule of Law".*
> 
> ...



This isn't a good look for Christian Porter, might be a career ending episode IMO.








						Federal Court rules Christian Porter's barrister has conflict of interest in ABC defamation case
					

Christian Porter's bid to sue the ABC suffers a blow as the Federal Court rules his barrister has a conflict of interest and should be restrained from acting in the case.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Christian Porter ends defamation action against the ABC
					

The ABC says that former attorney-general Christian Porter has decided to discontinue his defamation action against the broadcaster and reporter Louise Milligan.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (31 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> This isn't a good look for Christian Porter, might be a career ending episode IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't agree  at all at this stage SP.  From my perspective the Right Honourable Christian Porter (indeed..) has done exceptionally well in this legal exchange.

1) His initial action  immediately stopped all discussions about his alleged rape of Katherine Thornton as well as his denials of any further conversations about the issue.  It seems in his world he barely knew the girl..

2) The defamation action put the wind up  everyone and in particular the ABC that he had the capacity and willingness to  legally bankrupt anyone who wanted to raise the issue. Big tick

3)  Closing the case *without actually losing it* means the various affadavits from  James Hookes and other ABC background reports won't be heard in Court.  Given that James Hookes statements alone completely undermined his  statements that's a huge win.

4) In the political world  he and the Government can still spin the story that he has never been charged let alone found guilty of anything. Furthermore on his *Word of Honour he never ever did anything wrong.* So he should be well within his rights to regain his position as AG and continue the work of the Government. 

I think this is what we will see as his response and I won't be surprised if the Government in six months time also takes this view.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the other hand... No one ever seriously believed The Right Honorable  etc. should  face a criminal trial for this alleged offense.
It was always the case that the allegation and perhaps associated evidence ( Christian Porters  strenuous denial of  any discussions later on ) should be examined by an independent body.  It goes back to original thesis I raised in this thread.

_In industry Boards will routinely find a legal inquiry as a way of investigation serious allegations against senior management that can't or shouldn't be just given to the police. Same goes for Universities and community organisations. In almost all these cases the intention is to ascertain whether a person is fit and proper to hold their position.   They are not necessarily interested in establishing "beyond reasonable doubt criminal convictions" because in the real world  of business, education and community goverance a lessor level of certainty  is all that is required to know that something stinks and* the Board would be liable itself if it didn't take action. *

Like many others on this forum I have had responsibilities on Boards and we have had to take investigative actions when allegations of misbehaviour come to our attention.  They always require fair processes but in no case do we have the luxury of saying "Leave it to the Police" ._


----------



## SirRumpole (31 May 2021)

basilio said:


> Like many others on this forum I have had responsibilities on Boards and we have had to take investigative actions when allegations of misbehaviour come to our attention. They always require fair processes but in no case do we have the luxury of saying "Leave it to the Police" .




I think that would apply to current cases where the alleged victim can give evidence, but I doubt if most boards would consider events of 40 years ago without statements under oath.


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2021)

I still think he is toast, withdrawing the action, definitely gives the perception of guilt to many IMO. 
As far a long and illustrious career goes, I think that wont happen.


----------



## IFocus (1 June 2021)

Was Porters problem the witnesses and  file of evidence the ABC had?

I assume they would have gone his character around women perhaps.

Went to great effort's to supress (long shot) and when that failed, mediation was always going to be the out come, isn't this  similar to the way Alan Jones ran his case?

This was always the case and Porter was always going to  mediation trying to muddy the waters along the way.

I guess its up to his electorate now to decide.


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> Was Porters problem the witnesses and  file of evidence the ABC had?
> 
> I assume they would have gone his character around women perhaps.
> 
> ...



*Courts*_ cannot look at your previous convictions, or even charges laid against you, when they are deciding whether or not you are guilty. The exception to the rule is 'tendency and coincidence evidence'. ... In making that decision, *courts will* consider whether you were a person of good character or otherwise_.

Maybe the stories surrounding someone, can cause as much if not more damage, than letting sleeping dogs lie. 

As you say, it is up to the electorate now, but I can't see a long career, with this in the closet.

The ABC meanwhile have scored a bit of an own goal, by not being able to prove the allegation, so it will haunt them for a long time. Governments have very, very long memories, from my experience.


----------



## sptrawler (7 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I certainly hope the media get enough mileage out of these cases, the courts will eventually get fed up and really start to dish out some fines, for both sides IMO, for bogging down the justice system. 😂



I think that quote will prove true , one way or another, one side will cop a big settlement IMO. Which side? who knows.








						Bonfire of the vanities as curtain rises on epic Ben Roberts-Smith case
					

Mr Roberts-Smith’s barrister indicated that he will seek the largest aggravated damages payout in Australian history.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (7 June 2021)

And now the next cab off the rank, well at least the media is being brought to account, for what they publish. 
It may well be public interest, but it must be able to withstand scrutiny, or else it is gossip.
Otherwise why have police, why have courts?
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...was-a-mobster-court-told-20210607-p57ytg.html


----------



## moXJO (8 June 2021)

All these reporters seem to think they can print what they like with little to back it up. Hope they get sued back to the stone age.


----------



## sptrawler (8 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> All these reporters seem to think they can print what they like with little to back it up. Hope they get sued back to the stone age.



That is the only way, they will bring about any editorial checking IMO. They have been getting progressively worse since the early 2000's IMO.
As you say, now they seem to just write what they like.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think that quote will prove true , one way or another, one side will cop a big settlement IMO. Which side? who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Will he pay it all back if he's found guilty by a military inquiry ?


----------



## sptrawler (8 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Will he pay it all back if he's found guilty by a military inquiry ?



Probably at $50/day, I think that is what you get paid, in the can.

The other question is, will the share holders be happy, if the media is found guilty and the settlement runs into the millions? From reading an article, it sounds like one reported will pumping out bullets, apparently one wrote a book which places Roberts-Smith in a different location to an alleged killing of a teenager .
From your article Rumpy:
In all, the media alleges that Mr Roberts-Smith was responsible for six unlawful killings. One element of the defence, which was recently dropped, included the allegation that Mr Roberts-Smith killed a seventh unarmed Afghan man. Mr McClintock used this development to indicate that he intended to go for broke.

“At the end of the trial, we will put to Your Honour that this justifies an aggravated damages claim and I will put to you that an allegation of murder with no basis justifies the largest award of damages ever in this country,” he said.

It is a case that will make or break reputations, with millions of dollars at stake. Whatever the result, the scene has been set for a monumental showdown.


----------



## Humid (9 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Nonsense as usual.
> I quoted Bill Kelty, who was the head of the ACTU at the time, even he in reflection knows it cost workers a lot of money.
> I actually think it helped Australia at the time, as unemployment and inflation was rampant, what you got in your paypacket was not as important as what it could buy in times of high inflation.
> There is no point having wage growth of 6%, if you are running 10% inflation, in 2020 ASB statistics say wage growth was 1.8% and inflation was 0.87%.
> ...



You state that both sides of politics stymie wage growth and then go on to say that one party has been in power for 19 of the last 25 years lol
Just returned from a 3 week swing in iron ore and was payed less than the last time Labor was in power!
Even being employed full time if your on break while there is a public holiday you dont get payed for it.
Im going back to oil& gas....


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2021)

Humid said:


> You state that both sides of politics stymie wage growth and then go on to say that one party has been in power for 19 of the last 25 years lol
> Just returned from a 3 week swing in iron ore and was payed less than the last time Labor was in power!
> Even being employed full time if your on break while there is a public holiday you dont get payed for it.
> Im going back to oil& gas....



Yes they were the days the highest influx of 457's and the fun part is Labor gave the Aussies an extra two years of working life, thanks to your hero Kev. 😂  😂  😂  😂
Thank christ he was only in for a short time, or else you might have to go until you are 70. 
That's the good thing with shutdown work though, you can pick and  choose which ones you want to do and you have had a tax cut.
Add to that two extra years of work that Labor gave you, what a beano, you will save heaps and wont need the pension win/win. 

The other thing you could do Goldfields up in Kal have given a 6% pay rise and are paying their workers up to a $10,000 bonus, for referring new workers. Maybe you picked up the wrong job, or are ramping Labor. 🤣
By the way the son, just left them to an even higher paying job up there, so I think your pulling my pizzer mate.😜
Great to have your sense of humour back though and rederob can do with the help.
We are drifting off topic though.





						In the news | INVESTORS AND MEDIA | Gold Fields
					






					www.goldfields.com


----------



## Humid (9 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes they were the days the highest influx of 457's and the fun part is Labor gave the Aussies an extra two years of working life, thanks to your hero Kev. 😂  😂  😂  😂
> Thank christ he was only in for a short time, or else you might have to go until you are 70.
> That's the good thing with shutdown work though, you can pick and  choose which ones you want to do and you have had a tax cut.
> Add to that two extra years of work that Labor gave you, what a beano, you will save heaps and wont need the pension win/win.
> ...



I thought the 3 week bit might have triggered your brain that it was construction but anyway the reason they offer bonuses in Kal is the money is shite mate and who wants to go undergroung anyway been there done that.
Ive just picked up a job at Pluto 18x10 nice lifestyle gig
You can stay in Uranus where you belong


----------



## Humid (9 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes they were the days the highest influx of 457's and the fun part is Labor gave the Aussies an extra two years of working life, thanks to your hero Kev. 😂  😂  😂  😂
> Thank christ he was only in for a short time, or else you might have to go until you are 70.
> That's the good thing with shutdown work though, you can pick and  choose which ones you want to do and you have had a tax cut.
> Add to that two extra years of work that Labor gave you, what a beano, you will save heaps and wont need the pension win/win.
> ...



Great link between $300 and $600 a month chicken feed 
carton of beer a day lol


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2021)

Humid said:


> Great link between $300 and $600 a month chicken feed
> carton of beer a day lol



Not everyone is on $250k a year, like you. 
My son in Kal is only on $180k   But he does go home to his family every day.


----------



## Humid (9 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not everyone is on $250k a year, like you.
> My son in Kal is only on $180k   But he does go home to his family every day.



I havnt worked a year since Wheatstone and that sort of money is long gone....maybe offshore 
Im enjoying more time at home and working away in winter.
Plenty of work in the Pilbara that construction job was full of sparlies from the east paying their own interstate airfares

Anyway this has moved away from an alleged anal rape by a politician


----------



## SirRumpole (15 June 2021)

App that caught crims in Australia not used in US due to "privacy" laws ?

It's an interesting contrast of what we and the Yanks care about more, privacy for them and putting the crims away for us.

Who is right, or are we both stupid ?









						The FBI played a huge role in Operation Ironside but haven't made a single arrest — here's why
					

More than 250 alleged criminal figures were charged in Australia after an international sting by the AFP and FBI involving an encrypted app. But not one arrest was made on American soil.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Humid (15 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> App that caught crims in Australia not used in US due to "privacy" laws ?
> 
> It's an interesting contrast of what we and the Yanks care about more, privacy for them and putting the crims away for us.
> 
> ...



Photo op taken move on please


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2021)

Well back to the Christian Porter case, whether he did it or not, he is toast IMO. You throw a bucket like this, some has to stick, it is the law of averages.
Sometimes life is so much easier being a pleb, living a dull pleb's life, in a dull pleb's neighborhood.
Also after being married for 45 years, it is still a slap for any unwanted flirtatious advances, maybe I married an overly prudish lady? But we have been together since she was 17 and I was 19, how times change.
My missus would have taken half of everything, after the forced oral sex incident, let alone staying around for what happened next. All very very sad IMO absolutely no winners in this situation.









						Christian Porter rape allegation documents revealed
					

The original dossier detailing a rape allegation against former attorney-general Christian Porter has been made publicly available for the first time, including allegedly contemporaneous diary notes written by the woman who accused him shortly before taking her own life last year.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
The original dossier detailing a rape allegation against former attorney-general Christian Porter has been made publicly available for the first time, including allegedly contemporaneous diary notes written by the woman who accused him shortly before taking her own life last year.

The 31-page document, which had previously been circulated among politicians and journalists, details in the woman’s own words her account of an alleged incident in 1988 involving Mr Porter in Sydney while they were both teenagers.
The woman, known only as Kate, alleges in the document that she was raped three times by Mr Porter in the early hours of January 10, 1988, in her room at the University of Sydney Women’s College where they had walked after dancing at the Hard Rock Cafe in Kings Cross. There had earlier been a formal dinner for the World Universities’ Debating Championships.
Mr Porter has strenuously denied the incident occurred. He brought a defamation action against the ABC for reporting on the existence of the dossier, which was sent to politicians including Penny Wong, Scott Morrison and Sarah Hanson-Young.

The defamation case has since been settled and will be discontinued.
Parts of the dossier have been published previously, but the full document has not been made publicly available. Its release, with a trove of other Federal Court documents late on Thursday, came on the first anniversary of the day Kate took her own life.
The first alleged incident Kate said occurred was after she was propositioned for a “pearl necklace” and Mr Porter complained he could not be left with “blue balls”, forcing her to perform oral sex, which was the first allegation of rape.
After vomiting on her own dress, she says Mr Porter offered to “clean” her, in a bath or a shower at the college, and he washed her before dressing her in her nightie and underpants. She said they fell asleep and alleges she woke up to Mr Porter anally raping her while she was lying face-down and naked.
She alleges he ejaculated, which she described as “violently shocking”, and he anally raped her a second time. She said she was too ashamed to report it the next day. Some of the details contained in the document are too graphic for The _Herald_ and _The Age_ to publish.
Other documents released on Thursday include a lengthy transcript and video of an ABC interview with Kate’s friend Jo Dyer. Ms Dyer, a festival director who knew Kate in the 1980s, detailed the reasons why she believed the allegations her friend made.

“There are a number of reasons why I thought Kate was telling the truth. First and foremost was the story that she told was so clear and so consistent and so detailed,” Ms Dyer said in the interview.

“Secondly, really, the incident as she described … the acts that she described were not something that a 16-year-old virgin would consent to.”
Ms Dyer said in the full interview that Kate told her “a level of sinister detail”. This included an account of being anally raped twice, which was “enormously painful for obvious reasons”.

“There was, as she described it, this mantra that C [Mr Porter] was repeating – this was just a bad dream, you’ll be fine, everything will be OK. Again, extraordinary detail in the story. And an extraordinary thing to say.”
Kate took her own life in June last year, before she had made a formal police statement. In March, a NSW Police spokesperson said there was “insufficient admissible evidence to proceed” with an investigation in the matter.
Also among the documents released by the court were a series of text messages between Ms Dyer and ABC presenter Annabel Crabb, where Ms Crabb wrote that the former attorney-general was a “strange dude” and Kate would be moved to know that her friends were seeking justice for her.
In the messages, starting shortly after Kate took her own life, Ms Crabb wrote that she was “completely poleaxed ... even though I hadn’t seen her for so long and didn’t know her all that well to begin with”.
“It’s really coalescing with the stories of those [former High Court Justice Dyson] Heydon women just fading away out of the law... leaves me with such a boiling sense of rage and grief,” Ms Crabb said.
“I’m glad she at least managed to talk to a lot of people, some never get that. What a strange dude CP is. And how amazingly arrogant to think you can mistreat people and get away with it for ever.”
Ms Dyer responded that Kate was a “shining star” and it was “devastating” that her life was “very troubled for so long”.
“Regardless of whether it’s exclusively or only collaterally because of CP’s entitled arseholedom, it similarly fills me with rage. She deserved such a different life,” Ms Dyer wrote.
The documents had been tendered as part of a court case where Ms Dyer stopped high-profile silk Sue Chrysanthou, SC, from representing Mr Porter in his defamation case against the ABC.

Ms Dyer successfully argued Ms Chrysanthou was privy to confidential information about Kate and Mr Porter because the barrister gave her free legal advice in relation to an article in _The Australian_ that mentioned Ms Dyer.
At a press conference in Perth earlier this year, Mr Porter said: “I did not sleep with the victim. We didn’t have anything of that nature happen between us … I can say to you all it didn’t happen.”
As part of his recent settlement deal with the ABC, Mr Porter attempted to file a consent order removing the ABC’s defence from the court file.
But Justice Jayne Jagot refused to remove it and has allowed _The Sydney Morning Herald_, _The Age_ and News Corp Australia to make submissions that the defence should be released to the public.

The details that have now been disclosed might have forever remained suppressed if Ms Chrysanthou had surrendered her brief to act for Mr Porter and avoided Jo Dyer’s litigation.


----------



## basilio (25 June 2021)

I checked out the interview Louise Milligan had with Jo Dyer, Katherines friend and fellow debater.

So much in there echoes  the shared experiences most of us have had. Life is messy and complicated. xhit happens. You try to get over it.
But in this case a woman watched while a man who abused her and then behaved as calculatedly as Jo Dyer noted become the most powerful law officer in the land and had sights on being PM.  

I suggest it is well worth reading.  I'm also going to send a copy to Christian Porter and make it clear I will never believe anything  he ever says in denying this incident.

_3.15.05 If this had happened to me, I'm not sure that I would have been rushing to tell people, either. There's a great deal of shame that can come from unfortunate, ill-advised, let alone illegal sexual acts. As a young woman, you blame yourself for things that happen. I mean, we've all had the situation where a sexualised situation has gone further than we really would have liked or expected. It's not always, in fact, it's rarely a situation that would be defined as criminal. But it does, occasionally get out of control. And as 15-16 yo girls, you don't have much control in those situations, whatever you think going in. If you've been drinking heavily and you've been gregarious and flirtatious and, you know, extroverted, if something goes sour, late in the night, when booze has been consumed and everybody's perhaps not a hundred per cent clear, you're not likely to rush and tell anyone. I think you're going to accept it as an inevitable, if unfortunate, outcome of a situation which you helped create. And so the best thing that you can do is put it behind you and try and remember next time to be more careful. 

J: 3.16. 46 You'll try and moderate your behaviour, rather than think that the perpetrator's behaviour is the thing that should be moderated, or is illegal and should be prosecuted. So I'm not surprised that she continued to interact with Christian in those few days, last few days of the championships and beyond. Because it would have been unusual if she didn't. And then people would be asking 'why, what's wrong?' and then she would have had to confront the situation. And all she wanted to do was put it behind her


L: 3.33.46 You haven't read K's statement? (No) At the end of her statement, she says, 'in order to complete this account, I have drawn on all my resources, emotional, psychological, mental, spiritual, physical and financial. I have spent literally all of my savings and maxed out my credit card in order to do this work. But I have no regrets. All I really want, in the end, is for this to have been reported to the NSW Police Force. And to know that a copy of this document, and a transcript of any interview they might do with me, is in their archives. My original training was as an historian. This is my story, plain and simple. It's not pretty, but it's mine. And I stand by it, every single word and image in this document is true. If this story does become public knowledge, I hope that it will encourage other women to come forward. Not for me, but for themselves. I am sure that CP has violated other girls and women. I also hope that other people who have endured similar traumas, should these facts become public knowledge will feel less alone. Our bodies are precious. They are a gift from god, however we understand this. They should not be abused by anyone, ever, under any circumstances'. How does it make you feel to hear those words, knowing that she never got to fight that battle?_

_J: 3.35.26 Well, it... it's heartbreaking. It really is. She was very strong. And very clear, as you can hear in her own words. She wanted to tell her story. She fervently believed that there would be others who would come forward eventually. That C as an individual was likely to have behaved reprehensibly, if not illegally, towards other women. But she also wanted women to feel that they could come forward. She - she was under no illusions about how difficult it would be. But she had already had to climb mountains with this burden. So, I'm glad that her story can go onto the public record.




			https://t.co/ehagNlKY71?amp=1
		

_


----------



## basilio (25 June 2021)

Louise Milligans Twitter site noting the publication of her interview with Jo Dyer around teh rape allegations of Katherine Thornton


----------



## IFocus (25 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well back to the Christian Porter case, whether he did it or not, he is toast IMO. You throw a bucket like this, some has to stick, it is the law of averages.
> Sometimes life is so much easier being a pleb, living a dull pleb's life, in a dull pleb's neighborhood.
> Also after being married for 45 years, it is still a slap for any unwanted flirtatious advances, maybe I married an overly prudish lady? But we have been together since she was 17 and I was 19, how times change.
> My missus would have taken half of everything, after the forced oral sex incident, let alone staying around for what happened next. All very very sad IMO absolutely no winners in this situation.
> ...





Public figure so pretty much open season same as everyone else, Porters problems are there is a lot of other noise that's not a good look all of it his own doing.

Its looks like the  defamation case was strategic same a Alan Jones play get the headlines then run to settlement how ever for Porter the wheels appear to have fallen off. 

If its fair or not I cannot say but this is some one who runs secret trails, pursues whistle blowers, supports Robo debt, maybe some one can defend him and point out the various good he has done in his public life.


----------



## rederob (26 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> If its fair or not I cannot say but this is some one who runs secret trails, pursues whistle blowers, supports Robo debt, maybe some one can defend him and point out the various good he has done in his public life.



Morrison has led the worst government since Billy McMahon.  Poor Billy was no match for Whitlam back in  the day, and overshadowed by his wife Sonia in the media when otherwise not getting beaten up by his own party's shenanigans.  But as you point out, when you add Morrison's incompetence to that of his useless and heartless Ministers such as Porter and Dutton it's not hard to understand why the public has lost faith in our politicians.
A recent example of Morrison's *deceit *relates to State quarantine proposals.  After Queensland proposed a Toowoomba facility back in February there were ongoing negotiations and requests for further information. On Thursday Morrison finally knocked the Toowoomba idea on the head, using criteria that are at odds with both Howard Springs (which is operational) and the Victorian proposal.  Morrison has had 15 months to take responsibility for quarantine given it's a federal responsibility, and ample opportunity to work with the States to make it happen.  Instead he has played a game of obfuscation and deceit.  And here's his biggest lie on the matter from his letter to Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk:
"*It remains the priority of my government to ensure that more Australians who are overseas can safely return home."*​


----------



## IFocus (26 June 2021)

rederob said:


> Morrison has led the worst government since Billy McMahon.  Poor Billy was no match for Whitlam back in  the day, and overshadowed by his wife Sonia in the media when otherwise not getting beaten up by his own party's shenanigans.  But as you point out, when you add Morrison's incompetence to that of his useless and heartless Ministers such as Porter and Dutton it's not hard to understand why the public has lost faith in our politicians.
> A recent example of Morrison's *deceit *relates to State quarantine proposals.  After Queensland proposed a Toowoomba facility back in February there were ongoing negotiations and requests for further information. On Thursday Morrison finally knocked the Toowoomba idea on the head, using criteria that are at odds with both Howard Springs (which is operational) and the Victorian proposal.  Morrison has had 15 months to take responsibility for quarantine given it's a federal responsibility, and ample opportunity to work with the States to make it happen.  Instead he has played a game of obfuscation and deceit.  And here's his biggest lie on the matter from his letter to Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk:
> "*It remains the priority of my government to ensure that more Australians who are overseas can safely return home."*​





And when you think things couldn't get worse... Barnaby turns up


----------



## rederob (26 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> And when you think things couldn't get worse... Barnaby turns up



We can but reminisce the days of Honest John.


----------



## Humid (1 July 2021)

Christian Porter to be charged with the rape of Katharine Thornton in a private prosecution led by an experienced legal teamKangaroo Court of Australia
					

Christian Porter will be charged with rape in the not too distant future by an experienced legal team that has been assembled to institute a private prosecution. The legal team was announced today …




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com
				




Porter in the pooh again....


----------



## basilio (1 July 2021)

A private prosecution against a person one believes has committed a crime ?

Really interesting idea. I suppose there could be the issue of frivolous  and malicious prosecutions ?

There is some interesting  information out there. I would say however there are some pretty breathtaking political examples of what seems to be corruption that I would love to see examined in a public hearing.   CP would be a good start.









						Other issues | ALRC
					

Consent of the Attorney-General to prosecute7.152   The consent of the Attorney-General must be obtained before a prosecution can be commenced for breach of certain secrecy provisions. For example, the Attorney-General, or a person acting under his or her direction, must consent prior to a...




					www.alrc.gov.au
				









						Private Prosecutions- How Can I Charge Someone With a Crime?
					

What happens if someone has perpetrated an offence against you but the police or the public prosecutor is not willing to prosecute the offender?




					lylawyers.com.au


----------



## The Triangle (15 September 2021)

Once again - another law, another set of rules is there to protect the government from the people...  Rarely have I ever agreed with Turnbull on anything.   But agree with his assessment that Christian Porter should not take anonymous money to pay legal fees.    Even the left and right wing news agree!  

Who the f donates money to a politician/blind trust to pay their legal fees????  Amazing this stuff is actually legal.









						‘So wrong’: Turnbull slams Porter
					

Former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has lashed Liberal frontbencher Christian Porter’s decision to use a blind trust to pay for his defamation case claiming this was “like saying my legal fees were paid by a guy in a mask who dropped off a chaff bag full of cash.”




					www.news.com.au
				












						PM asks for advice on whether Christian Porter mystery donation breaches ministerial standards
					

Scott Morrison seeks advice about whether a decision by former attorney-general Christian Porter to accept mystery funds to pay part of his personal legal fees breached ministerial standards.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (15 September 2021)

The Triangle said:


> Once again - another law, another set of rules is there to protect the government from the people...  Rarely have I ever agreed with Turnbull on anything.   But agree with his assessment that Christian Porter should not take anonymous money to pay legal fees.    Even the left and right wing news agree!
> 
> *Who the f donates money to a politician/blind trust to pay their legal fees????  Amazing this stuff is actually legal.*
> 
> ...




Yeah it is pretty breath taking.  Just a few questions that were raised

_Labor’s Attorney-General spokesman Mark Dreyfus has previously said if Mr Porter was getting help to pay his legal bills he must declare it.

Commenting today, Mr Dreyfus said, “If Mr Porter genuinely doesn’t know who his donors are, he shouldn’t accept their money. Did the money come from criminals? A foreign power? Apparently Mr Porter doesn’t care.

“Other questions Mr Porter must answer include:
_
*“Were any of these donors from overseas?
“Were any of these donors lobbyists?
“Were any of these donors beneficiaries of decisions made by Mr Porter – or do they stand to benefit from decisions Mr Porter may make in the future?*

I wonder if Christian Porter will now be sued over accepting such funds ?  It seems so breath takingingly dangerous both personally and for the  Liberal Government.  

*So then of course  we would have the scenario of the anonymous  Legal Services Trust  forking out another $1m to defend Porter against charging of receiving unaccountable funds as a Politician*.


----------



## Humid (15 September 2021)

Lucky it wasn't a Cartier watch


----------



## basilio (20 September 2021)

So NSW *never, ever* began to investigate the allegations of rape against Christian Porter. 

As usual Shane Dowling has been ferreting around on this case. Lots to consider..

NSW police never started investigating Christian Porter rape allegation, internal review reveal​Police asked to close investigation on same day they received a dossier which included a statement by the woman detailing her allegations

Get our free news app; get our morning email briefing






Christian Porter has strenuously denies an allegation of raping a woman in January 1988. A NSW police investigation has acknowledged the alleged victim died ‘without having her wish of the person of interest being held to account’. Photograph: Mike Bowers/The Guardian

Paul Karp

@Paul_Karp
Sun 19 Sep 2021 21.09 EDT
Last modified on Sun 19 Sep 2021 21.11 EDT



New South Wales police acknowledged they “never had the opportunity to commence the investigation” into an allegation of rape by Christian Porter, conceding the “investigation or lack thereof was not successful”, an internal review document seen by Guardian Australia has revealed.

Porter’s accuser withdrew her complaint and took her own life in June 2020, without police having taken a witness statement from her. The police assessment of the investigation into her claims, which was first produced in a more redacted form to the NSW parliament, concludes that, as a result, an alleged victim of “childhood sexual abuse” had died “without having her wish of the person of interest being held to account”.

The same document also reveals that police asked to close the investigation on the same day they received a dossier which included a statement by the woman detailing her allegations sent to police by her friends.









						NSW police never started investigating Christian Porter rape allegation, internal review reveals
					

Police asked to close investigation on same day they received a dossier which included a statement by the woman detailing her allegations




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Christian Porter used taxpayers’ money to help facilitate his relationship with his girlfriend while Fortescue Metals likely paid his legal bill
					

Perth based MP Christian Porter used taxpayers’ money to help facilitate his relationship with his Sydney based girlfriend while on sick leave after




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com
				












						Katharine Thornton forced alleged rapist Federal MP Christian Porter to resign as a Minister
					

The key reason for Christian Porter resigning as a cabinet minister is the rape allegation made by Katharine Thornton which led to the defamation case that ultimately




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## basilio (21 September 2021)

Christian Porter still faces a legal challenge to his version of what never happened to Katherine Thornton...

The New Liberals are still intending to moun a private prosecution against Christian Porter.  Traditionally prosecutions are bought to court by Government prosecutors. However there is an option for a private citizen to bring a case.

I contacted the New Libs  recently and they still intend  to prosecute.  Good thing for Christian he  has his Blind Trust eh ? 









						Christian Porter to be charged with the rape of Katharine Thornton in a private prosecution led by an experienced legal teamKangaroo Court of Australia
					

Christian Porter will be charged with rape in the not too distant future by an experienced legal team that has been assembled to institute a private prosecution. The legal team was announced today …




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2021)

Hopefully the William Tyrrell case is sorted out before it becomes another media circus, it must be terrible for all concerned.









						William Tyrrell’s former foster-parents charged with assault
					

The pair were charged with common assault and will appear in Hornsby Local Court next week. The charges are unrelated to William.




					www.smh.com.au
				












						William Tyrrell: Police need physical evidence for arrests over disappearance
					

Multiple police and legal sources have confirmed that the evidence gathered so far is insufficient to refer the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions, as investigators continue their search for William Tyrrell’s remains.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## macca (17 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Hopefully the William Tyrrell case is sorted out before it becomes another media circus, it must be terrible for all concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This has been a circus since day one, I find it weird how some kids are "headline material" for years while far more go missing and barely get a mention.

When he was reported missing they had search parties out and they tramped all over any scent trails Before they brought in the dog squad (according to the media)

I find it rather odd that now, years later, they have dogs checking the backyard of the house, perhaps on the day would have been better.

Another odd thing was that they did not interview all of the neighbours, at the inquest years later, some neighbours came forward and said that they saw a car with a kid in a spiderman suit in the back seat leaving the area.

They rang the hotline at the time and were told they would be contacted if needed, it never happened, so they went to the inquest when it was held.

All very odd to me but what would I know


----------



## SirRumpole (18 November 2021)

macca said:


> This has been a circus since day one, I find it weird how some kids are "headline material" for years while far more go missing and barely get a mention.
> 
> When he was reported missing they had search parties out and they tramped all over any scent trails Before they brought in the dog squad (according to the media)
> 
> ...




Another bungled investigation, it seems, unfortunately not a rare occurence.

If it turns out to be not the washing machine man, I hope he sues the police for a motzah.


----------



## macca (19 November 2021)

The media is now "nominating" the foster mother as a person of interest, not very subtle.

The Police officer who lead the enquiry (since resigned) is calling it a mess, claiming he and his team looked very closely at both the mother and the possible causes of accidents etc.

The media showed a car being taken for forensic examination this week, he stated that all vehicles of the family were checked back when it happened and the family was fully cooperative.

One of those cases that for some reason, keeps being dug up on a regular basis


----------



## sptrawler (24 November 2021)

Peter Dutton gets payout for defamation by refugee advocate, these days people think it is open day to say anything on social media, slowly the message will be sinking in. It is just some are slower to wake up than others.









						Peter Dutton wins defamation case over refugee advocate's 'rape apologist' tweet
					

Defence Minister Peter Dutton is awarded $35,000 in a defamation action against refugee advocate Shane Bazzi over a tweet which accused him of being "a rape apologist".




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
_Defence Minister Peter Dutton has been awarded $35,000 in a defamation action against refugee advocate Shane Bazzi over a tweet that accused him of being "a rape apologist".

The now-deleted tweet was accompanied by a link to a story published in The Guardian in 2019, containing comments Mr Dutton made about women on Nauru when he was Home Affairs Minister.

Mr Bazzi had denied defaming Mr Dutton, saying he was only exercising fair comment and honest opinion.

But today, the Federal Court found the tweet did defame Mr Dutton, and awarded damages.

Justice Richard White ruled the tweet was defamatory, and implied Mr Dutton was a person who excused rape.

"I consider that the ordinary reasonable reader would have understood Mr Bazzi to be asserting that Mr Dutton was a person who excuses rape, and that the attached link provided support for that characterisation of him," he said_.



> "Mr Bazzi has not established the statutory defence of honest opinion, or the common law defence of fair comment on a matter of public interest."


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2021)

As I've said on numerous occasions, people need to be careful what they say on a forum, the days are numbered where defamatory comments can be made anonymously without consequences.









						New Australian laws to unmask anonymous online trolls and make tech giants pay
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said on Sunday that under the new laws people who believe they have been defamed online will also be able to get court orders forcing social media giants to reveal who is responsible for the posts.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## The Triangle (2 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As I've said on numerous occasions, people need to be careful what they say on a forum, the days are numbered where defamatory comments can be made anonymously without consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Won't be long until you need 100 points of ID to simply get online or have an email account..  Our government should be doing better things with their time.  They are off the mark and seem to (as does MSM) continually get defamation and bullying mixed up.  Two very different things.  Workplace bullying and harassment particularity from the highest levels is a much bigger problem that should be dealt with before this online nonsense.  

_He said women and children were the people most affected by anonymous bullying and defamatory abuse online and there needed to be a “quick and fast way” for people to raise these issues with the platforms and get it taken down._

I would like for our government to prove that women and children are the people most affected...   How do you defame a child?  Claim they like broccoli and baths but hate pizza and Lego?   They may as well just make a law that you cannot insult politicians or celebrities - this is what it's all about and it looks like all the government is doing it making a law to let themselves get money out of twitter, facebook, and google.  

_“It’s certainly not going to help 99% of victims of trolling in Australia,” Barnet said, adding that many would be unlikely to choose or be able to spend the time or money required to take a defamation case to court. _(from a different article)


----------



## moXJO (3 December 2021)

Government just wants to erode more rights. Worst government ever.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2022)

Porter, lawyer ordered to pay more than $430,000 in legal costs
					

The former attorney-general and his defamation barrister are ordered to cover the court costs of a friend of the woman who accused him of rape more than 30 years ago.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Former attorney-general Christian Porter and his defamation lawyer have been ordered to pay more than $430,000 to cover the legal costs of Jo Dyer, a friend of the woman who accused Mr Porter of raping her more than 30 years ago.

Ms Dyer is contesting the next federal election as an independent candidate for the Adelaide electorate of Boothby — the most marginal electorate in South Australia, currently held by the Liberals.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 January 2022)

Ben Roberts-Smith loses court case against his ex wife, defamation case against media continues.









						Ben Roberts-Smith loses court case against ex-wife by relying on 'possibilities and suspicions'
					

A judge rules Victoria Cross recipient Ben Roberts-Smith has no arguable case against his ex-wife as he relied on "ill-founded" assertions that she accessed his emails.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## The Triangle (17 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Peter Dutton gets payout for defamation by refugee advocate, these days people think it is open day to say anything on social media, slowly the message will be sinking in. It is just some are slower to wake up than others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						Refugee advocate wins appeal against ruling he defamed Peter Dutton in tweet
					

A refugee advocate has won an appeal against a defamation ruling which ordered him to pay Defence Minister Peter Dutton $35,000 over a now-deleted tweet.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Not so fast Mr Dutton....  Glad to see we still have a few sensible judges.  Will this little blunder hurt leadership chances?  I think yes.  Liberals not doing too well over the past year suing people are they???  Porter, Dutton, and Barilaro come to mind.   Maybe if (I'm sure they'll weasel out of it) the labor party put in a federal icac they can also look into issues like this which resemble slapp lawsuits.


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Refugee advocate wins appeal against ruling he defamed Peter Dutton in tweet
> 
> 
> A refugee advocate has won an appeal against a defamation ruling which ordered him to pay Defence Minister Peter Dutton $35,000 over a now-deleted tweet.
> ...



I just think it is great, we have systems in place where these issues are tested, people have every right to criticise and if others feel that they have been defamed they should challenge it.
Then the issue is sorted and precedents are set, it makes journalsts more careful what they say and it makes politicians more careful how they behave.
Win/win for the general public IMO. The boundaries of fair and resonable comment and criticism continually get tested, especially since self censorship has become the norm in the media, I think it is right that people should go to court if they feel they have been defamed, it is the only avenue to hold the journo to account, as far as I can work out.


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## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

@The Triangle sounds like we are off on another romp with the media, the way we are going, there will be money to be made if someone can make a P.C speech adjuster.









						Holmes a Court mulling defamation suit against media outlets and Sharma over Nazi reference
					

Holmes a Court accused the Wentworth MP of fake claims of anti-Semitism to win the votes of Jewish members of his at-risk seat.




					www.theage.com.au
				



Climate change activist Simon Holmes a Court has launched a defamation action against _The_ _Daily Telegraph_ and the _Daily Mail_ and is considering suing Liberal MP Dave Sharma, who accused the wealthy backer of independent candidates of using a “sickening” Holocaust slur.

The convenor of the Climate 200 fundraising vehicle accused the Wentworth MP of fake claims of anti-Semitism to win the votes of members of the large Jewish population in his at-risk seat.
The dispute centres on a tweet published by Holmes a Court on Tuesday morning.
Anticipating John Howard’s arrival in Melbourne to campaign in the seat of Kooyong, Holmes a Court outlined the former prime minister’s record on climate change and referred to him as the “angel of death”.

This was the nickname of Nazi officer and physician Josef Mengele, who performed deadly experiments on Jewish prisoners at Auschwitz.
“This is an offensive slur and Mr Holmes a Court must immediately apologise,” Sharma said in _The Daily Telegraph_, whose political editor James Morrow also published a story about it.


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## The Triangle (18 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @The Triangle sounds like we are off on another romp with the media, the way we are going, there will be money to be made if someone can make a P.C speech adjuster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Should be interesting to watch unfold but another waste of court time.  The government has to change these stupid defamation laws which are globally mocked as some of the worst laws in the world.   But I suspect The Daily Mail will be on the losing side here and Sharma will get a letter in the mail from the lawyers for the holocaust remark as well (unless there actually is a history of holocaust references)

If you took a representative sample of 12 Aussies and asked them what they thought of when you said Angel of Death I think maybe 1 at most would say Nazis.  A few would say the bible, a few would shrug their shoulders, and a few would say the devil.   "Angel of Death" has been assigned to probably 50 different people throughout the last few hundred years.   Calling John Howard the angel of death is a stupid and childish comment, it's not a funny or intelligent or a creative insult. 

Side note - John Howard needs to f-off from public life and stay f'd-off.  I'm sick of liberals parading around this old has-been like he's everyone's beloved grandfather.






						Godwin's law - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## sptrawler (18 May 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Should be interesting to watch unfold but another waste of court time.  The government has to change these stupid defamation laws which are globally mocked as some of the worst laws in the world.   But I suspect The Daily Mail will be on the losing side here and Sharma will get a letter in the mail from the lawyers for the holocaust remark as well (unless there actually is a history of holocaust references)
> 
> If you took a representative sample of 12 Aussies and asked them what they thought of when you said Angel of Death I think maybe 1 at most would say Nazis.  A few would say the bible, a few would shrug their shoulders, and a few would say the devil.   "Angel of Death" has been assigned to probably 50 different people throughout the last few hundred years.   Calling John Howard the angel of death is a stupid and childish comment, it's not a funny or intelligent or a creative insult.
> 
> ...



I think they just need to bring back a censorship board, that keeps the media under control, it would stop all the tribal crap and save everyone a huge amount of time and money.
It's a bit like Singapore, where corporal punishment is still dished out, vandals only graffiti the trains or buses once, or rob and bash someone once. LOL
Their rehabilitation system has a high success rate, re offenders are very low.


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## IFocus (19 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think they just need to bring back a censorship board, that keeps the media under control, it would stop all the tribal crap and save everyone a huge amount of time and money.
> It's a bit like Singapore, where corporal punishment is still dished out, vandals only graffiti the trains or buses once, or rob and bash someone once. LOL
> Their rehabilitation system has a high success rate, re offenders are very low.





Sounds like woke cancel culture to me next step communism 😂😂🤣🤣


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## sptrawler (19 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> Sounds like woke cancel culture to me next step communism 😂😂🤣🤣



Spot on the rattan cane woke them up and it also cancels the urge to re offend. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣

I think communism takes it all up to the next level.


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## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

Sounds like another Porter style defamation case, where once the evidence is known and going to be aired, all of a sudden the claimant decides to head for cover.
Like I say, it is great these issues go to court, it stops a lot of unnecessary denials and or irresponsible articles and should end up forming guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable in both behaviour and journalistic license. Win/win for the public IMO.









						Craig McLachlan to pay costs after dropping defamation case against Herald, ABC
					

On Friday, shortly before 11 women were due to begin giving evidence that McLachlan had harassed them, the actor abruptly dropped the case.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Actor Craig McLachlan has been ordered to pay costs estimated to be about $2 million after he abruptly abandoned his defamation case against two media organisations and his former co-star two weeks into the trial.
McLachlan, 56, sued _The_ _Sydney Morning Herald_, the ABC and actress Christie Whelan Browne in the NSW Supreme Court in 2018 over an investigation which alleged he indecently assaulted and sexually harassed female performers during the 2014 stage production of _The Rocky Horror Show_.


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