# The Health and Fitness Thread



## kincella (1 May 2009)

Here it is for all you who want to improve  the body and health and fitness...and share it with others
cheers
some of you may like to copy some of your posts from the other thread over to here


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## Sean K (2 May 2009)

Was too hard to move things over to here and too must angst. A general title of health and fitness is appropriate. Those that want to discuss professional athlete dietetics can and those wanting to discuss weight training and exercise for fitness can also. 

I've only recently started going back to the gym here in Lima and am loving it. Just doing whole body 3 x a week. And it seems muscle has memory. After just a couple of months I'm seeing some good results. Going for a walk/jog 4 x a week also but have to take it easy as I have old calf and back injuries that need care and attention.  

By the way, you'd think that Peru gyms would be pretty crap and unprofessional but Gold's Gym here is amazing. Extremely well run. Great equipement. Trainers on the floor all day. A team of cleaners constantly tidying and whiping. Dietitians on board. And the aerobics instructors are really well trained. Surprising really. 

Anyway, my aim is to just get some shoulders back. Sitting in front of a computer and drinking rum for the past 3 years has softened me up too much.


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## bowman (2 May 2009)

My main interest here is in what foods I put into my body and how they affect my well being and I'll be posting links and summaries of various relevant research and some personal anecdotes.

As far as cooking food and the effects of cooking on nutrients, the link below has some extensive research figures. It suggests for one, that vitamin loss during cooking is in the order of 10-25% which all things considered is pretty modest. 

Generally speaking, it stands to reason that lightly cooked vegetables with minimal exposure to heat would lose less nutrients than vegetables exposed to long periods of high heat. My preferred coooking methods for vegies are steaming and stir frying.


http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1a.shtml#top

This whole site is well worth exploring for anyone interested in food facts and myths as reported by veteran vegetarians, vegans and fruitarians. There's plenty of  good science and research here.


http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml


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## bowman (2 May 2009)

Another walk this morning, followed by another liquid vitamin shot ie. the green smothie.

Once again I picked some dandelion from the yard, and also some parsley from the garden.

Into the blender with:

1/2 banana
handful of grapes
1/2 cup orange juice
3tsp ground flaxseed

The taste? The banana dominates as always, with a herbaceous, austere and slightly bitter finish. :

It's a lot more palatable than wheatgrass juice and I would suggest a bigger vitamin hit too.

Think I'll sell my Blackmores shares.


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## gouryella (2 May 2009)

I have found the Question of Nutrition articles by Dr. Jonny Bowden to contain useful general information on food and nutrition. Certainly worth taking the time to read. Don't be scared off by the website they are on, there is useful information for all.


Question of Nutrition: Vol 1

Question of Nutrition: Vol 2

Question of Nutrition: Vol 3

Question of Nutrition: Vol 4

Question of Nutrition: Vol 5

Question of Nutrition: Vol 6

Question of Nutrition: Vol 7

8 More Power Foods


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## bowman (2 May 2009)

Thanks for those links gouryella. Among other things, I am going to get some Pomegranite juice next week (Vol. 3)



I came across this research on frying foods.

Basically protein and mineral content of fried foods is unaffected.
Some vitamins are more heat stable than others but the quick, high heat of frying and stir frying results in less loss of vitamins than other cooking methods.

Obviously you need to watch what oils you are frying with and how much you use.

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a905214677~db=all

Here's a vitamin chart showing various facts including which vitamins are heat stable and which are not.

http://www.healthvitaminsguide.com/vitamins/vitamins-chart.htm


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## motorway (2 May 2009)

bowman said:


> My main interest here is in what foods I put into my body and how they affect my well being
> 
> http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1a.shtml#top
> 
> ...





http://www.thepaleodiet.com/



Dr. Loren Cordain is a member of the faculty of the Department of Health and Exercise Science at Colorado State University.  During the past two decades he has researched the effects of diet on human health and specifically examined links between modern diets and disease.  He is the author of numerous scientific articles examining the link between diet and health, and has published three popular books, The Paleo Diet, The Paleo Diet for Athletes, and The Dietary Cure for Acne.  Additional information and specifics may be found in the articles, books, and materials listed on this web site, and through The Paleo Diet Newsletter.

Our mission is...

To accelerate the widespread recognition of the evolutionary basis for the optimally healthful diet

To generate publicity, discussion, and research on this topic

To inspire health-conscious individuals and healthcare practitioners to adopt and recommend this way of eating

To promote a new paradigm of the nutritional basis for health

To help people reduce their risk of lifestyle-based diseases

motorway


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## Pager (2 May 2009)

Afraid i do all the right things but do all the wrong as well 

Go for run of about 5 kms or go to the Gym for an hour everyday, but also probably drink too much alcohol (about 4 beers a day), don't really watch what i eat, if i like it i eat it and good fry up for breakfast is lovely and i also smoke sometimes 

I see it as I'm balancing the good with the bad but maybe one day it will all catch up with me


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## gouryella (2 May 2009)

Pager said:


> Afraid i do all the right things but do all the wrong as well
> 
> Go for run of about 5 kms or go to the Gym for an hour everyday, but also probably drink too much alcohol (about 4 beers a day), don't really watch what i eat, if i like it i eat it and good fry up for breakfast is lovely and i also smoke sometimes
> 
> I see it as I'm balancing the good with the bad but maybe one day it will all catch up with me




Are you getting the results you're after? What are your goals? Are you training for anything in particular?

If you're not happy with what you're getting out of your training, then just imagine how much better your results could be if you reduced those 'bad' things, let alone if you stopped them completely. If you're not happy with the results from your training then you're putting all that effort in and getting nothing back in return. It would be like banging your head on a brick wall


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## Pager (2 May 2009)

gouryella said:


> Are you getting the results you're after? What are your goals? Are you training for anything in particular?
> 
> If you're not happy with what you're getting out of your training, then just imagine how much better your results could be if you reduced those 'bad' things, let alone if you stopped them completely. If you're not happy with the results from your training then you're putting all that effort in and getting nothing back in return. It would be like banging your head on a brick wall




I run and exorcise because i enjoy it, i don't set targets or aim for results, i simply do it because it make me feel good and the enjoyment i get from doing it, its relaxing and how i unwind, i like beer as well, usually have beer with lunch, another after the gym or running then usually 2 in the evening.

i don't smoke alot and often go weeks or months without smoking but again i enjoy a cigarette as hard as it may be to believe, don't know why but always have, i know it stinks, its very bad for my health but i do enjoy it, having a pack every know and then is not good but cant see it doing that much damage.

With eating my diet isn't that bad, but i do enjoy a fried breakfast and have never really watched what i eat, im not overweight or have any allergy's or health problems so if i like it i eat it.


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## Calanen (2 May 2009)

I used to be quite into fitness, running, kickboxing, boxing, weights. Then I worked out that the road to success was like trying to get a heavily laden air-craft off a very short run way - there wasn't and isn't enough time to muck about in the gym.

So these days I just (mostly) try to watch what I eat and walk from the car park to work and back at a brisk pace, which is about a 1km each way. If I was going to live for 300-400 years the whole hard core fitness thing might be worth it, but with sort 60-70 perhaps, it doesn't make any objective sense.

Still, a bit like religion, don't mind what anyone else does.


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## weird (2 May 2009)

Pager said:


> I run and exorcise because i enjoy it




Natural endorphins sensation is the best, completely understand. I remember running once, and the sensation was almost overwhelming.


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## gouryella (2 May 2009)

Pager said:


> I run and exorcise because i enjoy it, i don't set targets or aim for results, i simply do it because it make me feel good and the enjoyment i get from doing it, its relaxing and how i unwind, i like beer as well, usually have beer with lunch, another after the gym or running then usually 2 in the evening.
> 
> i don't smoke alot and often go weeks or months without smoking but again i enjoy a cigarette as hard as it may be to believe, don't know why but always have, i know it stinks, its very bad for my health but i do enjoy it, having a pack every know and then is not good but cant see it doing that much damage.
> 
> With eating my diet isn't that bad, but i do enjoy a fried breakfast and have never really watched what i eat, im not overweight or have any allergy's or health problems so if i like it i eat it.




That's cool, everybody is different and is looking for different things out of life. I was just curious as to what your goals were, if any. But it's not as if you're complaining that you can't achieve results and as long as you enjoy what you are doing, who am I or anyone else to tell you otherwise?

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with a fried breakfast, it's probably the one meal of the day you can afford to go a little crazy on


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## helicart (3 May 2009)

At the end of this post are some graphs and tables that might be appreciated by those with an intelligent and motivated approach to health, weight control, and fitness.


As far as diets and health go, I am not motivated to build extraordinary strength, as I lose it as soon as I have a break from lifting heavy weights. 

What motivates me is optimal health...that means not getting sick, and delaying the ageing process. 

The scientist and medico I respect most in this field is Dean Ornish. Click here for 3 minute video by this great cardiac surgeon and scientist at a TED talk...

Unlike so many others who have written books and developed popular diets, Dean is the only one who has done extensive lab research and is highly respected by his peers. 

He has shown that artherosclerosis and prostate cancer can be reversed on a diet high in fibrous carbs, low in fat, and minimal protein. 

Further, like him, I value longitudinal epidemological studies, such as those done on American Seventh Day Adventists. Quantitative and qualitative studies such as the China Study are also highly valued. 

So the diet I value most is the one that will let me live the longest, retaining the most cognitive and physical functionality.

The research favours a primarily vegetarian diet for this. I have not heard that body builders and weight lifters have any advantage in living more healthfully into their 90s and beyond. Vegetarians do have an advantage in this respect. 

BTW, I am not interested in arguing this point. I am just stating what the science reveals. 


The most important information in this first table are the cal/kg/day BMR figures. Science has shown these rates do not vary between children and adults of any age.








These charts reveal how, although the liver and brain are not heavy organs, their resting metabolic rate is so high that they account for a significant portion of BMR Calorie consumption, as evidenced by the lower chart. 

Hopefully these charts show why science does not recommend fasting for long periods, or having a very low Calorie diet. Doing so will compromise brain and liver function. 

Taking in less Calories than BMR greatly increases the chance of developing the following diseases- severe loss of muscle tissue (as much as 40% of total wt lost), fragile and premature ageing of skin, bone mineral loss and subsequent osteoporosis, gout, gall stones, cholecystitis, vasovagal fainting (dangerous when driving), hypoglycaemia, cardiac arrhythmias, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, and nervous system dysfunction. When sustained, anorexia nervosa will develop.









Clicking on the pic below will download a xls that allows you to work out your energy expenditure more accurately than any dietitian software. Once you know your Calorie expenditure, you are then able to select the right number of Calories to lose weight at a safe rate (0.5 - 1.0 kg a week). For average sedentary men and women, this is usually 1500 Cals and 1200 Cals respectively.


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## helicart (3 May 2009)

Here's 1200 and 1500 Cal samples of Ornish based diets that would help most sedentary people lose weight safely.


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## bowman (3 May 2009)

I have a couple of friends who are healthy vegeterians and they swear by it.

I couldn't deny myself the pleasures of the flesh, as it were, but since adopting more or less the caveman style diet I have noticed my vegetable portions have become larger while my meat and fish portions are smaller.

All my meat buying is now organic, and I am eating a lot of kangaroo and looking for other non-farmed sources of meat.


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## helicart (3 May 2009)

bowman said:


> I have a couple of friends who are healthy vegeterians and they swear by it.
> 
> I couldn't deny myself the pleasures of the flesh, as it were, but since adopting more or less the caveman style diet I have noticed my vegetable portions have become larger while my meat and fish portions are smaller.
> 
> All my meat buying is now organic, and I am eating a lot of kangaroo and looking for other non-farmed sources of meat.




I was a strict vego for over 10 years but reverted back to ~200-300grams of organic flesh a week. It is more for convenience than anything else. Most restaurants don't put a lot of effort into their vego offerings.


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## Mr J (3 May 2009)

Calanen said:


> So these days I just (mostly) try to watch what I eat and walk from the car park to work and back at a brisk pace, which is about a 1km each way. If I was going to live for 300-400 years the whole hard core fitness thing might be worth it, but with sort 60-70 perhaps, it doesn't make any objective sense.
> 
> Still, a bit like religion, don't mind what anyone else does.




Swap office chair for an exercise bike occasionally, and do weights in front of the tv (surely you watch a little?).


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## cooper1308 (3 May 2009)

For those who are looking to get fit and feel good, without getting to technical, I have found boxing as the ultimate allround exercise

Its a solid cardio sweatout.....very good for co-ordination and reflexes, and best of all it has a purpose in that you will feel more secure and confident about yourself

3 of these sessions a week with some healthy food inbetween means I earn a few guilt free carltons come friday!


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## bowman (4 May 2009)

Blueberries are chokkers with antioxidants.

It seems that frozen blueberries are just as good in this respect as fresh ones, however antioxidant properties are reduced if the blueberries are eaten with protein foods.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1082901

http://www.naturalnews.com/025516.html


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## bowman (4 May 2009)

Something just occured to me and I would like you guys to comment.

I'm loosly following the caveman diet, which excludes dairy and grains and cereals.

Now of course grains and cerelas became a major part of the human diet when we developed agriculture, and I think it's been suggested that excess weight first became a problem after the development of agriculture.

The question I have is, do we blame the grains and cereals  for the weight gain, or is the problem that agriculture provided us with a LOT of these foods, so that we began eating them when we wanted them, rather than when we needed them.

So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?


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## Pappon (4 May 2009)

bowman said:


> So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?




Combination i believe too many carbs have led to a rise in diabetics. Once a carbohydrate is ingested the body's pancreas secretes insulin, too much insulin can create insulin resistance ie the body's muscles rejects the fuel (carbs) and it goes straight to fat.

Much to the reason overweight people have a greater difficulty in losing weight than "normal" people their body is not efficient as "normal" people (as they have abused their body with food) ie they cannot process as many carbs as "normal" people. Overweight people need to be strict about low carb diets till they have "reset" there bodys efficiency.

Point too many carbs above the bodys requirement is very bad.


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## Calanen (4 May 2009)

> So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?




Some foods are worse than others, but there is no mystery to it. It's just a chemical reaction. People say 'I don't eat anything and I still put on weight!' which makes as much sense as 'I don't put any petrol in the car and I can still drive 1000 miles in it!'. It's just a formula - burn more than you put in, you lose weight. Burn less than you eat, and you put on weight.  Work out your resting calorie or kilojoule burn per day and then eat less than that. Easy.


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## bowman (4 May 2009)

Calanen said:


> Work out your resting calorie or kilojoule burn per day and then eat less than that. Easy.




I'm losing weight so that's not my problem.

I was just curious as to whether the total rejection of grains and cereals by the advocates of the caveman diet is based on an incorrect premise.


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## motorway (4 May 2009)

bowman said:


> I'm losing weight so that's not my problem.
> 
> I was just curious as to whether the total rejection of grains and cereals by the advocates of the caveman diet is based on an incorrect premise.




No (imo)

grains 

very acid forming ( Bone health )
inhibit mineral absorption
Insulin problems

Anti nutrients

etc

Dairy

wrong type of fats
harmfull proteins

If you are drinking human milk OK

( But at your age I guess you should be weaned  )

Hormones in foreign milks cross into blood
cause problems 

The site I linked
Has a lot of peer review research 

Genetically we are hunter gatherers
( compare skeletons of farmers to Hunters in neolithic 
look at absence of Tooth decay  etc . bone health ,size etc)

Fish lean meats fruits vegetables 

High nutrient low anti nutrient

Importance of minerals and LONG CHAIN omega 3

Acid balance 

But like anything DYOR


Three things should not talk about
religion politics and diet



Also look at descriptions of Hunter Gatherers 
at first contact ( before disease and Western ills and ways -->  flour and sugar )

( not new  world farmers.... But eg like the  "Manly" Aborigine -->amazing hand eye coordination ,eye sight ,endurance HEALTH )


High temperatue cooking too is an issue

Stack of real evidence based research 

Loren Cordain 
imo
is one of  the leading researchers.


But DYOR
YOUR HEALTH IS YOUR HEALTH

Just Dicussion
motorway


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## helicart (4 May 2009)

bowman said:


> So is it the foods themselves, or our excessive use of these agricultural foods that makes us fat?





The rate of diabetes is a lot lower in traditional Asian culture where rice is a staple and obesity is lower... 

A heavy animal protein Paleo diet is not sustainable into the future because production of animal flesh and dairy products are major contributors to global warming via methane.... Anyone concerned about global warming would be a hypocrite to sustain themselves on a diet of animal products, or breed for that matter, as the planet is overpopulated.

According to the United Nations Food and                        Agriculture Organization, the                        livestock sector generates more                        greenhouse gas emissions as measured                        in CO2 equivalent – 18 percent                        – than transport. It is also a                        major source of land and water                        degradation.


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## motorway (4 May 2009)

helicart said:


> The rate of diabetes is a lot lower in traditional Asian culture where rice is a staple and obesity is lower...
> 
> A heavy animal protein Paleo diet is not sustainable into the future because production of animal flesh and dairy products are major contributors to global warming via methane.... Anyone concerned about global warming would be a hypocrite to sustain themselves on a diet of animal products, or breed for that matter, as the planet is overpopulated.
> 
> According to the United Nations Food and                        Agriculture Organization, the                        livestock sector generates more                        greenhouse gas emissions as measured                        in CO2 equivalent – 18 percent                        – than transport. It is also a                        major source of land and water                        degradation.




Asia is a big place

Japan 

Okinawa

Soy  na
Rice Na

SEAFOOD yes
almost as much as Eskimo



Rice -------Has other health concerns

YES it is a challenge for a populated world to live
An evolutionary correct diet

But that does not mean you should not do your best
or What constitutes an optimal diet can be politically correct..

Yes compromises have to be made

But omega 6 omega 3 balance
for example

you ignore (imo ) at your peril

Does not have to be heavily flesh foods
just adequate 

Dairy is non optimal
according to Cordains research



> Dr. Loren Cordain is a member of the faculty of the Department of Health and Exercise Science at Colorado State University.  During the past two decades he has researched the effects of diet on human health and specifically examined links between modern diets and disease.  He is the author of numerous scientific articles examining the link between diet and health, and has published three popular books, The Paleo Diet, The Paleo Diet for Athletes, and The Dietary Cure for Acne.  Additional information and specifics may be found in the articles, books, and materials listed on this web site, and through The Paleo Diet Newsletter.
> 
> Our mission is...
> 
> ...





motorway


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## helicart (4 May 2009)

motorway said:


> Okinawa
> 
> Soy  na
> Rice Na
> ...




From Wiki
*Indigenous islanders' diet*

 People from the islands of Ryūkyū (of which Okinawa is the largest) are reported to have the longest life expectancy in the world. This has in part been attributed to the local diet, but also to other variables such as genetic factors, lifestyle, and environmental factors.
 Generally, the traditional diet of the islanders is 20% lower in calories than the Japanese average and contains 300% of the green/yellow vegetables (particularly heavy on sweet potatoes). The Okinawan diet is low in fat and has only 25% of the sugar and 75% of the grains of the average Japanese dietary intake.[2] *The traditional diet also includes a relatively small amount of fish (less than half a serving per day) and somewhat more in the way of soy* and other legumes (6% of total caloric intake). Almost no meat, eggs, or dairy products are consumed.[3]
 An Okinawan reaching 110 years of age has typically had a diet consistently averaging no more than one calorie per gram and has a BMI of 20.4.[4]



See also, The China Study


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## weird (4 May 2009)

You also have the Sardinians (Italy).


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## motorway (4 May 2009)

Consumption of fish varies widely in different cultures. Table 1.3 lists the per capita consumption of fish by the Eskimos, the Japanese and the U.S. population.


Per pounds of fish per person per year

Eskimo 325
Okinawa  163
Japan  85
USA  less 15



motorway


what Scientific Journal is wiki ?

as I said DYOR

An optimal diet is just that

Global Warming has nothing to do with it
Genes win out at the end of day

Does not mean what Diet is obtainable for the majority
different question


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## motorway (4 May 2009)

helicart said:


> From Wiki
> *Indigenous islanders' diet*
> 
> People from the islands of Ryūkyū (of which Okinawa is the largest) are reported to have the longest life expectancy in the world. This has in part been attributed to the local diet, but also to other variables such as genetic factors, lifestyle, and environmental factors.
> ...




motorway


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## helicart (4 May 2009)

motorway said:


> Consumption of fish varies widely in different cultures. Table 1.3 lists the per capita consumption of fish by the Eskimos, the Japanese and the U.S. population.
> 
> 
> Per pounds of fish per person per year
> ...




Hunter Gatherer Energy Expenditure /day
BMR   1665
Activity 1235
Total Expenditure = 2900 Cals = Total Intake

No point considering diet separate from lifestyle. It is a large leap of faith to presume the paleo diet is as appropriate for a hunter expending on average 1200Cals /day via physical activity, and a computer programmer's <500Cals. 

I'll stick with Dean Ornish's research and views thanks....


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## Y.T. (4 May 2009)

Hello all!

Just thought i would drop past this thread as i have had experience being over weight for many years.

A bit of history - When i was 18 i weighed 109kg (I am 175cm tall) and i was considered very obese. I couldn't sleep properly, and i developed sleep apnea and the doctors said i pretty much wont live a full life if i dont start losing weight. I was getting to around 65% oxygen in my system while i slept and i would stop breathing for ages before gasping for air, so it was pretty bad...

This pretty much was a life changing moment in my life and it made me study fitness intently (on my own, no courses) and i learned an enourmous amount about my body and what i ate.

I never used to eat veges or salads at all... I would buy a burger from McDonalds and i would take out all the salad, thats how much i hated it. So i thought to myself, i got to change and start being healthy!

I used this calculator (and i still do): Daily Caloric Intake

From here i learnt that i had a certain amount of calories i needed to take in. Once i found this magic number i researched FAT and found that 1kg of FAT contains approx 7000 calories, so in order for me to lose a kg of fat a week i had to reduce my calorie intake by 1000 a day. To do this i cut my calorie intake by 500 calories and i bought myself a polar HR watch and i burnt 500 calories a day. This was hard at first but motivation is the key. *HANG A PICTURE OF ARNOLD SCWARZENNEGER ON YOUR FRIDGE!*

Now on the calorie/food side, everyone needs to get the optimum amount of protein, fat and carbohydrates for their body. To figure out how much protein i needed i used the 20/40/40 rule (20% protein/40% fat/40% carb). Since 1gm protein = 4 calories divide your calories by 4 to work out how many grams you need.

*Example:*
calorie intake=1800 calories, protein=20%:
1800 x .20 = 360 calories from protein. Since 1 gram of protein = 4 calories, divide protein calories by four:
360/4 = 90 grams of protein per day. 

1 gram Fat = 9 calories
1 gram Carbohydrates = 4 Calories

Divide them evenly to get your perfect ratio.

To track all this information and my intake i used the site Calorie King. This site was paramount to my weight loss, if i didnt use this site to track my daily intake it would have taken me so much longer. It has almost every food on there!

Now this is how i did it and i thought i would share it because it worked for me and i think it is a really good way of working

Today i weigh 74kg and have been this weight for 3.5 years (current age 23) and i still stick to a good structured diet.

Any questions feel free!

Just my


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## motorway (4 May 2009)

> and why Paleo man lives no longer.




He does 

He is just living a modern lifestyle
and getting very sick


Yes it is lifestyle

sleep patterns
exercise patterns
diet patterns


If you are saying ornish claims that pork is not part of traditional 

Okinawan diet

I would get another diet guru

in your quote you said they ate no meat !!
SORRY almost



> Almost no meat,






> Okinawa - The Island of Pork:
> Pork appears so frequently in the Okinawan diet that to say "meat" is really to say "pork." Everything from head to tail is used. As the saying has it, only the "oink" and the toenails go begging. It is no exaggeration to say that the present-day Okinawan diet begins and ends with pork.




But not only present -day



> After 1609, Okinawa's Satsuma Han overlords, fearing that Buddhism would spread among the people, took control of (Jodo Shin sect) Buddhism in Okinawa and put Okinawa's Buddhist priests and monks under strict supervision. For that reason, the prohibition against meat arising from Japanese Buddhism failed to take root in Okinawa. *Therefore, pork consumption remained important. *Fresh hog's blood was prepared for the blood "Irichii" used in the Buddhist mass for the dead and for Obon, "Unkejushi," (a welcoming dish of seasoned rice offered on July 13 of the old calendar) would not be what it is without pork.




Anyway

paleo is as much about fresh fruit & Vegetables
as it is about *LEAN* meat and seafood

and it is more than that too...

and We can do better than Fatty Pork

( would not eat it )

 PALEO is a word misused  ( no Atkins )


motorway


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## helicart (4 May 2009)

Y.T. said:


> Now on the calorie/food side, everyone needs to get the optimum amount of protein, fat and carbohydrates for their body. To figure out how much protein i needed i used the 20/40/40 rule (20% protein/40% fat/40% carb). Since 1gm protein = 4 calories divide your calories by 4 to work out how many grams you need.
> 
> *Example:*
> calorie intake=1800 calories, protein=20%:
> ...




OK, that's how you took the weight off.....

If you do full time office work and regular housework and leisure activity with no more than 3 hours of walking a week, your Calorie expenditure would be about 1900 Cals a day.

If you still do 20,40,40, that means you have to take in around 85 grams of fat a day. 

That is a hell of a lot of fat. 

Can you give me an example of your food intake now....


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## gav (4 May 2009)

helicart said:


> Taking in less Calories than BMR greatly increases the chance of developing the following diseases- severe loss of muscle tissue (as much as 40% of total wt lost), fragile and premature ageing of skin, bone mineral loss and subsequent osteoporosis, gout, gall stones, cholecystitis, vasovagal fainting (dangerous when driving), hypoglycaemia, cardiac arrhythmias, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, and nervous system dysfunction. When sustained, anorexia nervosa will develop.




A very important point indeed...

From http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Danger-of-Low-Calorie-Diets:-How-To-Avoid-The-Yo-Yo-Diet-Trap&id=74029

"While low calorie diets can result in weight loss in the first few weeks and months of starting the diet, *the majority of the weight lost is not fat*. This is because low calorie diets do not provide sufficient energy to fuel the body’s basic functions such as breathing, circulation, and digestion etc. In order to provide the fuel to keep itself alive, the body breaks down muscle tissue, which is easily convertible into glucose, and is easier to access and break down into energy than fat.

In effect, low calorie diets reduce the amount of lean muscle tissue in the body, which has a knock-on effect of reducing the basal metabolic rate. Lean muscle tissue is metabolically active, meaning that the more lean muscle tissue an individual has, the more calories are burned. The reduction in lean muscle tissue also reduces the body’s ability to burn fat.

When you finally lose the weight and start eating normally, your body can no longer burn calories at the rate it did before your diet because you now have less lean muscle tissue! You become locked in a vicious cycle of dieting and weight gain - simply because your body breaks down muscle for glucose before it breaks down fat. Although you might only end up gaining back the original weight you lost, you are will end up fatter because you have lost lean muscle tissue and gained back fat.

The result of the loss of lean muscle tissue and the weight gain arising from it is termed the Yo-Yo effect. Many dieters, when finding that they have regained the weight they have lost, embark on another diet, which plunges them further into lean muscle tissue loss.

*So, what is the solution to permanent weight loss? To lose weight effectively, you need to consume enough energy to burn fat, and eat the right foods to maintain your level of lean muscle tissue. A sensible balance of a healthy diet and moderate exercise is more effective in achieving a permanent weight loss than low-calorie diets.*"

Low calorie diets mean you will not be getting the minerals your body requires.  Deficiencies in copper, potassium and magnesium can lead to an electrically unstable heart (From http://diet.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Dangers_of_a_Very_Low_Calorie_Diet)

From http://dietsnutrition.allinfoabout.com/features/verylowcalorie.html

*So what happens to your body on fewer than 1000 calories a day?*

    * Your metabolism slows down to conserve energy.
    * Your body uses blood sugar, made from carbohydrates, for fuel just as a car uses gas (petrol). Without blood sugar, the brain and central nervous system, as well as other bodily systems, will cease to work efficiently.
    * To try to counteract the lack of blood sugar from carbohydrates in the diet, your body will break down fat, which is what you want, but it will also breakdown muscle and other lean body tissue.
    * Losing lean body tissue can be very dangerous. Even organs can be broken down to use as fuel.
    * Losing lean body tissue can also be counter-productive. Muscle tissue increases the resting metabolic rate. With reduced amounts of muscle, your metabolism will slow. When you come off the diet, increased fat cells will form because your metabolism is slow and so your body needs less blood sugar for fuel. It is also a survival mechanism in case of another 'famine'.
    * With very low calorie diets, an imbalance in minerals and electrolytes can occur, which can be dangerous. These govern the balance of fluids in the body allowing nerves and muscles to function.
    * Osteoporosis can be another danger, especially for women. Often dairy products like eggs, milk and cheese are cut out of a very low calorie diet so cutting out a major source of calcium leading to loss of bone mass.
    * Anaemia (a lack of iron in the blood) can also be another risk. If taken to extremes, women can find that menstuation (periods) becomes irregular or stops altogether.
    * A lack of serotonin in the brain can be another problem which leads to clinical depression.
    * You might find that the lack of essential nutrients on a very low calorie diet leads to a deterioration in the condition of your hair and nails.
    * One of the great dangers of this kind of dieting is that you can become acclimatised to it. As your body reduces some of its functions, including those of the brain and nerves, and as depression takes hold due to a lack of serotonin, you can slip into anorexia nervosa - a truly life threatening condition.
    * As mentioned above, when you finally come off this diet, you will almost certainly regain all the weight you have lost plus more leading to yoyo dieting, now believed to be dangerous.
--------------------------------------------------

Well well well... Many of these points were raised by others and myself on the "other" thread - especially the effects of muscle and metabolism.


----------



## gouryella (4 May 2009)

That about sums it up, Gav.

Now where have I heard that before? :


----------



## gav (4 May 2009)

helicart said:


> OK, that's how you took the weight off.....
> If you still do 20,40,40, that means you have to take in around 85 grams of fat a day.
> 
> That is a hell of a lot of fat.
> ...




It really depends on the source of fat.  I don't see a problem if it is from nuts, avacado, salmon, natural yoghurt, etc.  Trying not to have too many carbs and fats together would be his main issue IMO.  However, I'd still recommend a reduction of fats and an increase of protein.


----------



## gav (4 May 2009)

bowman said:


> Blueberries are chokkers with antioxidants.
> 
> It seems that frozen blueberries are just as good in this respect as fresh ones, however antioxidant properties are reduced if the blueberries are eaten with protein foods.
> 
> ...




Thank-you for those links.  The point about protein is of interest to me.  I have a combination of water, oats, whey protein concentrate and mixed berries for breakfast.

It mentions milk protein, however not whey.  Obviously whey is derived from milk, but I wonder if the process would make any difference to the reduction in antioxidant properties.

I also read that heat affects the berries - I'm glad I've been heating the oats in the microwave BEFORE adding the berries


----------



## helicart (4 May 2009)

Hey Gav, what's the latest in the body building fraternity regarding the protein sparing effect of carbs?


----------



## gav (4 May 2009)

helicart said:


> Hey Gav, what's the latest in the body building fraternity regarding the protein sparing effect of carbs?




Even amongst top level bodybuilding identities there are mixed opinions.  Like weight loss, there are many schools of thought, and many different diets people have had success with.  Some believe carbs are almost unnecessary, and stick to a keto style diet.  I have quite a few friends that use CKD (cyclic keto diets) which is basically a keto style diet with 2 large "carb up" meals per week. (I trialled this myself for a number of months last year)

However the majority understand the importance of carbs and its protein sparing qualities.  The main benefits from a bodybuilders point of view:
- Carbs assist in the delivery/absorption of protein
- Carbs are the best way to replenish glycogen.  If glycogen is not replenished through carbs (or fat), protein will be used to replenish glycogen, instead of repairing muscle

Bare in mind that bodybuilders manipulate their physique through diet and training in ways that are not always considered "healthy".  It varies from person to person, but I believe the majority are very health conscious - which many of the general public don't seem to understand.


----------



## Y.T. (5 May 2009)

helicart said:


> OK, that's how you took the weight off.....
> 
> If you do full time office work and regular housework and leisure activity with no more than 3 hours of walking a week, your Calorie expenditure would be about 1900 Cals a day.
> 
> ...




The diet i am following is the *Testosterone Advantage Plan by Lou Schuler*.

It pretty much tells you for every kg you should have 2 grams of protein and then divide the fat and carbohydrates into the rest.

The reason you give carbs and fat equality, as Lou states:

_"First, Fat is crucial for testosterone production, carbohydrates are not. Second, Good fats are good for your heart, and studies show, for your mood and general well-being. Third, fat is the slowest to leave your body. While protein may make you feel full fastest, fat makes you stay full the longest."_

I'm not saying this is the best diet or anything, but it worked for me and is continually working.

Right now my current plan is 30p/35f/35c and it is working great for me.

This book is really great and very interesting.


----------



## bowman (5 May 2009)

There seems to be some archaeological evidence that late Paleo people gathered wild grasses.

http://www.archaeology.org/0409/newsbriefs/seeds.html

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Agriculture.html

But putting that aside and focusing on the nutritional aspect of grains and cereals (I can live without dairy for the most part) I'm having a look at  Sprouted Grain Breads which seem to have nutritional advantages over traditional flour based breads.

Does anyone have any experience or recommendations with these?


----------



## gav (5 May 2009)

Y.T. said:


> The diet i am following is the *Testosterone Advantage Plan by Lou Schuler*.
> 
> It pretty much tells you for every kg you should have 2 grams of protein and then divide the fat and carbohydrates into the rest.
> 
> ...




And this is why many bodybuilders and athletes use a lot of healthy fats in their diet.  You've obviously done your research YT, and have made a complete lifestyle change.  Congrats


----------



## helicart (5 May 2009)

Check the heart blood flow scans at 9.22 on this Ornish talk.


----------



## motorway (5 May 2009)

bowman said:


> There seems to be some archaeological evidence that late Paleo people gathered wild grasses.
> 
> http://www.archaeology.org/0409/newsbriefs/seeds.html
> 
> ...




Paleo people could not expend more energy in getting and preparing food than they could get from eating same food

No doubt there was some uses of seed ( certainly nuts )

Also there were no Silos
So all grain seeds would be sprouting to some extent

When you sprout a seed
The starch locked up in the seed 
is converted to sugars
( eg Malt )

The seed becomes like a vegetable or fruit


However My concern would be with moulds
Those visible and invisible


modern paleo diet

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/JANA final.pdf


----------



## bowman (6 May 2009)

Sleep your way to a thin body.

It looks as though the amount and quality of your sleep has an effect on the levels of the hormones leptin and ghrelin - which are responsible for your feelings of fullness or hunger.

I've been a cr@p sleeper ever since I briefly traded US markets a couple of years ago - not that I'm making excuses.

There is significant research being done in hormone treatments to suppress appetite and it's quite probable that new generations of weight loss drugs will go down this road.

It's no substitute for a good diet and exercise of course but it may eventually help people to change their eating habits.

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/guide/lose-weight-while-sleeping

http://thyroid.about.com/library/news/blhormonediet.htm


----------



## helicart (6 May 2009)

This is a bodybuilder and gym owner I've known since I was a kid. Watch him blow up and burst a hot water at the age of 61.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uhpl9l4Av4&feature=PlayList&p=6786CB6B08A594F6&index=0

He's been doing strong man stuff for years.....in the Guiness Book of records etc. 

He's been eating 35%+ animal protein diet since I first met him in the 70s. 

Recently he has had 1 deep venous thrombosis and 2 life threatening pulmonary embolism incidents where he needed to be hospitalized.


Here's another guy who was a great friend of my mentor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKr9qDL6_h4&feature=PlayList&p=456BFB7D3F989E84&index=0
He died last year at 81......


Here's one of the greatest body builders in history, still going strong at 79....
http://www.billpearl.com/career.asp


What do these three men have in common? 
They were all extraordinarily strong men. 

The last two share something the first doesn't...


vegetarianism


----------



## motorway (6 May 2009)

I remember reading some bios of famous strong men & Body Builders

And what characterized them was significant dairy consumption

and often early death  ( under 80 )
Often strokes and heart

They  drank lots and lots of milk and cheese etc

All proteins are not equal..

Some cause significant damage

Of the training manuals some of them wrote

Daily consumption of cheese and milk

often quarts at  a time

eg



> I realize you are anxious to build up great strength and power as soon as possible. Here is a simple secret which should help give you the results you hope for. It is a special food which you should take regularly. . . . It is a natural food product, and, taken under the simple directions I am advocating, will produce results nothing short of marvelous. This unique food is MILK. Yes, milk is this secret health builder. By its use in large quantities you can build a NEW PERFECT BODY of SOUND FLESH and MUSCLE.
> 
> Charles Atlas, Lesson 2




Too many studies on diet
have used Milk products as the animal protein

( It is easy to uses in animal studies and human studies too
just mix the powdered milk )

When for Cordain for example it is more damaging than  Soy protein
and not a natural food for Humans at all

eg


> Fat intake is not the only dietary factor that affects the atherosclerotic process in animal
> experiments. Many trials have shown that casein promotes atherosclerosis more than soy
> protein [43], and  that meat proteins are less atherogenic than soy
> protein and casein [44]. Hence, meat may be less atherogenic than soy beans, low fat milk
> ...




DYOR just for Discussion 

motorway


----------



## motorway (6 May 2009)

Some points



> Ten thousand years ago the Agricultural Revolution was the beginning of a drastic change in the human diet that continues to this day. Today more than 70% of our dietary calories come from foods that our Paleolithic (Stone Age) ancestors rarely, if ever, ate. The result is epidemic levels of cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, arthritis, gastrointestinal disease, acne, and more.
> 
> Loren Cordain, Ph.D., is widely acknowledged as a leading expert on the diet of our Paleolithic ancestors. In numerous publications in the world's best scientific journals, he has documented the dramatic health benefits of eating a diet consistent with human genetic evolution. A diet based on lean meats, seafood, fresh fruits, and fresh vegetables can lead to ideal body weight, optimum health, and peak athletic performance.






> With readily available modern foods, The Paleo Diet mimics the types of foods every single person on the planet ate prior to the Agricultural Revolution (a mere 500 generations ago).
> 
> These foods (fresh fruits, vegetables, lean meats, and seafood) are high in the beneficial nutrients (soluble fiber, antioxidant vitamins, phytochemicals, omega-3 and monounsaturated fats, and low-glycemic carbohydrates) that promote good health and are low in the foods and nutrients (refined sugars and grains, saturated and trans fats, salt, high-glycemic carbohydrates, and processed foods) that frequently may cause weight gain, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and numerous other health problems. The Paleo Diet encourages dieters to replace dairy and grain products with fresh fruits and vegetables -- foods that are more nutritious than whole grains or dairy products.




On Milk



> D a i r y P ro d u c t s : New F i n d i n g s
> In addition to having a potent insulin response, similar
> to eating a slice of white bread, a recent dietary
> intervention showed that a high milk diet for only seven
> ...




On Health aspects



> photographs of Aborigines on their native diets illustrate dental structures so perfect as to make the reader wonder whether these natives were wearing false teeth. But like all the other primitive groups Price studied, the Aborigines soon succumbed to rampant tooth decay and disease of every type when they adopted the “displacing foods of modern commerce” -- white flour and sugar, jams, canned foods and tea. Children born to the next generation developed irregularities of the dental arches with conspicuous facial deformities -- patterns that mimicked those seen in white civilizations.






> early explorers reported the Aborigines to be “well formed; their limbs are straight and muscular, their bodies erect; their heads well shaped; the features are generally good; teeth regular, white and sound.
> 
> They are capable of undergoing considerable fatigue and privations in their wanderings, marching together considerable distances.”12
> 
> ...




Just for Discussion

motorway


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## helicart (6 May 2009)

motorway;431052DYOR just for Discussion :) said:
			
		

> motorway




In the 70s when I first tried to bulk up, it was all milk and sugar based drinks with amino acids, like sustagen...and the hot water bottle blower made a stack out of selling blended drinks in the gym-  milk, egg, honey, whey protein, skim milk powder, dolomite, crushed vitamins, banana, vanilla essence, and that great profit margin booster, ice   

Often the guys had rattly chests and needed to cough a lot of phlegm.

And processed cheese certainly is packed with fat.

So yes, I agree the dairy have been done to death in the past.....


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## helicart (6 May 2009)

It helps to be careful interpreting observations such as the health of Aboriginals and their physical prowess.

There's natural selection thing going on here, where gene expression of inadequate traits is deselected. i.e. a person of smaller or weaker stature but nonetheless more intelligent, would more than likely be deselected in an environment where alpha male trait and inter tribal fighting over territory and women was the norm over 10s of thousands of years. 

To attribute superior physical traits primarily to diet, is not necessarily correct. But I agree that Aboriginals are hardier than caucasians in general. I have worked in regional Qld in hospitals and have seen Aboriginals calmly present with all manner of trauma and illness that would have caucasians screaming in pain...


----------



## gav (6 May 2009)

Why bodybuilders dont use Soy protein:

Soy protein has a BV (biological value) of 74.  BV is the most accurate indicator of biological activity of protein and measures the actual amount of protein deposited per gram of protein absorbed.  High BV proteins are better for nitrogen retention, immunity, IGF-1 simulation, and are superior for reducing lean tissue loss during various wasting states.  It is less anti-catabolic than high BV proteins. 

One reason Soy is so low on the BV is because it lacks methionine (sulphur containing amino acid).  Sulphur containing amino acids are very important for protein synthesis and growth, immune system function, and the bodies production of glutathione.  Glutathione is one of the most powerful anti-oxidants in the body.  It protects cells and detoxifies harmful compounds such as hydrogen peroxide, carcinogens, and others.  It is also responsible for helping keep LDL from oxidising and clogging arteries.

Soy also contains lectins and protease inhibitors. Lectins can interfere with the absorption of important nutrients and even cause intestinal damage.  Protease are enzymes that aid in the digestion of proteins.

Soy is rich in estrogenic compounds like genistein and diadzein.  As many bodybuilders will already know, a change in the testosterone/estrogen balance towards estrogen can lead to increased bodyfat and other ill effects as it relates to strength related goals. 

BV of common bodybuilding proteins compared to Soy:
Whey - 104
Whole Egg - 100
Egg White - 88
Casein - 77
Soy - 74

Also, here is a link that suggests Soy does not prevent cardio-vascular related disease as has been claimed in the past, is highly allergenic and can also be a contributing factor towards breast cancer:
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_badnews.html


----------



## gouryella (6 May 2009)

Interesting reading, particularly with regard to dairy products.

I have recently come off a 'diet' I was on over the last few months that allowed me to lose around 15kg since Nov-Dec '08. Don't ask me how I let myself get to such a state, but anyway... Over that time period all I basically ate was vegetables, red meat, chicken, oats, some fruit, tuna, whey protein, eggs, salad greens and cottage cheese.

I have since returned to more normal eating (not restricting calories I should say) and am currently drinking 1L of milk a day. I will be interested to see if this has an effect on my body composition, having read some of the quotes above, this one in particular...



> D a i r y P ro d u c t s : New F i n d i n g s
> In addition to having a potent insulin response, similar
> to eating a slice of white bread, a recent dietary
> intervention showed that a high milk diet for only seven
> ...




Now, as far as I know weight training and other 'vigorous' exercise improves one's insulin sensitivity. Perhaps if that study had been performed on people such as myself, who partake in such activities, a similar outcome may not have eventuated? Also, my milk intake is timed around my training sessions (before and after) which could negate such negative impacts?

I know some bodybuilders, as well as athletes like marathon runners, consume simple sugars (dextrose etc) in a similar manner for energy and to utilise insulin for nutrient transport. I have done so in the past and consequently had noticable weight gain. I'd prefer to get sugars from natural food sources like fruit, milk etc where you also get additional vitamins and minerals etc.

Just trying to generate some discussion


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (6 May 2009)

I feel all body builders and fitness fanatics are over indulged narcissists.

Furthermore all these people on diets will be fit and live too long and clog up our nursing homes when they get the dementia.

I say, eat, drink and be merry and stop prancing around in silly lycra showing off your veins.

gg


----------



## helicart (6 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I feel all body builders and fitness fanatics are over indulged narcissists.
> 
> Furthermore all these people on diets will be fit and live too long and clog up our nursing homes when they get the dementia.
> 
> ...




Just keep consuming lots of fatty food and booze GG. 

If prostate cancer or an MI doesn't take you out early, at least the circulation to your reproductive kit will be so compromised, you'll be shooting so many blanks you won't be able to perpetuate your values on Planet Earth.  :rippergun


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## motorway (6 May 2009)

Gouryella

here is the full paper from which I took the Milk Quote

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Cordain US Dermatology Reviews.pdf


It is in the context of Acne

and Insulin resistance

Glycemic Index & load



> Table 1 lists the glycemic indices and loads
> of various foods and demonstrates that refined grain and
> sugar products nearly always maintain much higher
> glycemic loads than unprocessed fruits and vegetables.
> ...





&

This esp



> T h e E p i d e r m a l G rowth Fa c t o r R e c e p t o r
> 
> Only 12 short years have elapsed since the discovery that
> humans bear a hormonal receptor in their gastrointestinal
> ...




Not hard to substitute other _diseases of civilization_
for ACNE


As for bones



> In the U.S. calcium intake is one of the highest in the world, yet paradoxically we also have one of the highest rates of bone de-mineralization (osteoporosis). Bone mineral content is dependent not just upon calcium intake but upon net calcium balance (calcium intake minus calcium excretion). Most nutritionists focus upon the calcium intake side of the calcium balance equation, however few realize that the calcium excretion side of the equation is just as important.
> 
> Bone health is substantially dependent on dietary acid/base balance. All foods upon digestion ultimately must report to the kidney as either acid or base. When the diet yields a net acid load (such as low-carb fad diets that restrict consumption of fruits and vegetables), the acid must be buffered by the alkaline stores of base in the body.
> 
> ...




No advice here 

Just for discussion

motorway


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## gouryella (6 May 2009)

It's interesting, and certainly makes you wonder how much of today's advice will be considered or proven false in the future.

There are so many myths and conflicting opinions out there...

Don't eat chicken, it is full of hormones.
Eggs will give you high cholesterol.
Whole grain breads (or any breads for that matter) are healthy.
Tuna and other fish will give you mercury poisoning.
Too much red meat will give you bowel cancer.
Fruit and vegetables are full of pesticides.
Pasta and rice should be dietary staples.
Drinking wine regularly is good for you.
Soy is a health food.
Too much protein will cause kidney damage.
Consuming fat makes you fat.

Problem is you can probably find just as many studies both for _and_ against most of the above.


----------



## helicart (7 May 2009)

gouryella said:


> Problem is you can probably find just as many studies both for _and_ against most of the above.




And that's why you want to weight moreso the opinion of scientists who specialize in the field. It is a complex field, that great profit can be made from, because it is of great interest to the public, so the media and health enthusiasts tend to jump all over a single study, and distort its relative value. 

The last point is very important when you consider the greatest contributor to morbidity and mortality in modern man is artherosclerosis, and the role of low grade inflammatory states in this....as well as its role in a growing incidence of allergy and food sensitivity conditions. 

It may be that a food's content of omega 6 PUFAs, or the omega 6 to 3 ratio, or food content of bioflavinoids,anti-oxidants, phytochemicals, carotenoids, retinols, isoflavins, and lycopene, is more important to health than that food's glycemic index or protein quality. 

Why? because omega6 carry arachidonic acid which is the key substrate for the inflammatory cascade by production of the eicosanoids - prostaglandins, thromboxanes, and the particularly troublesome leukotrienes. And the bioflavonoids etc have excellent anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant qualites.

But then, the time and expense one takes to optimize dietary PUFAs might be trivial in its effects on dampening inflammation, in comparison to a daily dose of 30-100mg aspirin.

And then, little attention is paid to the relative role sleep plays in health. Staying up late, not getting enough sleep, and not dealing with stressors have serious effects on the absorption of nutrient through the lumen of the jejunum and low grade inflammation.

Optimal health really has a symphony of influences and it doesn't pay to get hung up on one quality or another of food.


And then there's always the role of genetics, that grant each of us a different capacity to overcome diet and lifestyle indiscretions...


----------



## bowman (7 May 2009)

Stress is an interesting one - in particular with regards to traders.

I've noticed I am far more relaxed these days and I put it down to a number of factors including early morning walks, dumbbell workouts, better nutrition and interestingly, my recent switch from swing trading to (mostly) daytrading.

Yes folks, daytrading is not stressful. Particularly at the end of the day when you know that your capital will still be there for tomorrow. 



http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20070407-16071.html


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## helicart (7 May 2009)

bowman said:


> Yes folks, daytrading is not stressful. Particularly at the end of the day when you know that your capital will still be there for tomorrow.




....though entries and exits still get my BP up I reckon. I'll have to measure it one day.


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## bowman (7 May 2009)

I have no problems with pulling the trigger.

Perhaps my times of greatest stress are when I watch a position I have just sold, rally to new and astonishing intraday heights.


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## gav (7 May 2009)

Check this out...

http://thisiswhyyourefat.com/


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## helicart (7 May 2009)

gav said:


> Check this out...
> 
> http://thisiswhyyourefat.com/




it's amazing anyone makes it past 30 on that sort of food. 
though how did the sushi get in there. 

Some of you might appreciate some slides in this ppt I did for state govt a few years ago.  10MB zip....make sure to unzip both files to same folder and run in full screen mode to get the audio working.


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## Garpal Gumnut (7 May 2009)

What is wrong with being a bit fat and dying early and happy.

All you protein hormone glugging veinful early morning abberations will only fill our nursing homes with cranky old bastards who will take forever to die.

I prefer my shape and attitude, I take my roots seriously and do not need to be all that fit or hormone filled to achieve same.

gg


----------



## helicart (7 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What is wrong with being a bit fat and dying early and happy.
> 
> gg




gg, so you are the resident sht stirrer  

I don't give a stuff what you eat or feed to your sprogs, as long as I don't have to pick up part of the morbidity medical bill...which is the problem with nationalized health isn't it. 

Once the govt gets control of services, they then want to dictate how we live our lives so the cost of the service can be controlled.

They'll introduce bans on television advertising of treat foods within 5 years, you watch. and regulations on what fast food chains can sell.


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## Julia (7 May 2009)

helicart said:


> Once the govt gets control of services, they then want to dictate how we live our lives so the cost of the service can be controlled.
> 
> They'll introduce bans on television advertising of treat foods within 5 years, you watch. and regulations on what fast food chains can sell.



Yes.  Maybe post a copy of this on the "Bloody Nanny State" thread.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 May 2009)

helicart said:


> gg, so you are the resident sht stirrer
> 
> I don't give a stuff what you eat or feed to your sprogs, as long as I don't have to pick up part of the morbidity medical bill...which is the problem with nationalized health isn't it.
> 
> ...




Helicart you live in a very narrow world, excuse the pun.

Life is more than just about body mass index, and cultures over the millenia have had different ideals of body habitus.

I take it you own a fat factory or some such harbour for the anxious and unfit, veinous and desperate.

May I quote from Shakespeare on Julius Caesar's ideal of comrades to surround him.

"Let me have men about me that are fat, sleek-headed men, and such as sleep o' nights".

By all means make a quid out of the anxious amongst us, but, putting a fey philosophical spin upon it is sophistry.

gg


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## helicart (7 May 2009)

Like the Bible, Shakespeare has something for all seasons.....having understood man's dichotomous nature.

As for the fat farm, nope.....just enough years in hospitals and private practice to witness the sorrow of men before their time not able to fetch their mail from the letterbox, sit for 7 hours at a computer, or drive safely....for want of lungs, knees, lumbar discs, and pancreas spent before their time....

And then this weekend past, two 16 yo rugby players, one with suspected unhappy triad knee trauma, the other with subluxed cervical facet jt and concussion....courtesy of carrying excess weight and not being conditioned enough to evade tackle and fall well..........

Truth is, they'd probably prefer to be at home on the X Box....but presume Dad is living his unfulfilled dreams through the kids potential glory.....but glory is not something outsourced and got for nothing....


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 May 2009)

helicart said:


> Like the Bible, Shakespeare has something for all seasons.....having understood man's dichotomous nature.
> 
> As for the fat farm, nope.....just enough years in hospitals and private practice to witness the sorrow of men before their time not able to fetch their mail from the letterbox, sit for 7 hours at a computer, or drive safely....for want of lungs, knees, lumbar discs, and pancreas spent before their time....
> 
> ...




Ok mate, you are a GP. I drive trucks. We both have our own opinions.

I know more old drunks than old doctors.

Your job is to keep the cost of health expenditure to 8% of gdp, no more no less.

We make gdp.

gg


----------



## helicart (7 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Ok mate, you are a GP. I drive trucks. We both have our own opinions.
> 
> I know more old drunks than old doctors.
> 
> ...




not that I am nit picking gg, cos you seem like a reasonable bloke, but gdp is consumption of all goods and services........which is why it is a crap indicator in many ways.....if there's more truck accidents, and need for medical treatment and panel beating, GDP goes up.

though my specialty is headaches and neck trauma.....which cause a lot of lost productivity....getting computer programmers, builders, plumbers, truckies, barristers, judges, etc back to work a couple of days earlier is my net contribution to GDP.


----------



## bowman (8 May 2009)

Well I tracked down some Essene sprouted grain bread yesterday in the refrigerator
section of a health food store.

It's quite a departure from what otherwise passes for bread. This stuff is DENSE!
It's much smaller than a normal loaf (14cm x 8.5cm x 8.5cm) but it weighs 1kg.

There were several grain options available but I decided to start with the
wheat grain.

If you're looking for a healthier sandwich bread then I doubt this is for you.
This bread is very moist, and seriously dense and heavy. One toasted slice this 
morning, with a little honey was all I needed to feel quite full, so I'm 
going to include a slice of this bread in my morning eating routine.


The flavour is BIG and the taste of wheat really comes through with some
nutiness and sweetness as well.

The nutritional claims for sprouted grain breads include:

High fibre
High protein
High vitamins and minerals
Complex carbohydrates
Essential amino acids
LOw Gi
Low calories
Virtually fat and salt free

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouted_bread


http://www.naturaltherapypages.com.au/article/Benefits_Sprouted_Grains

PS. Sometimes I find health food stores, and some of the people that work there a bit scary. The middle aged woman that served me yesterday looked borderline anorexic.


----------



## helicart (8 May 2009)

bowman said:


> PS. Sometimes I find health food stores, and some of the people that work there a bit scary. The middle aged woman that served me yesterday looked borderline anorexic.




yes that's a common criticism of health food nuts and vegetarians......but keep in mind many people who feel unwell or have had chronic illness, take an interest in healthier eating.......it isn't necessarily their interest in healthier eating that makes them look sick. 

nevertheless, anorexia and body image issues are a serious problem for many women. Personally I reckon a lot of them wouldn't get that way if they had some bloody responsibility to do a bit of manual work every week. Behind every anorexic is someone supporting them in a fairly sedentary and indulged lifestyle, imho.


----------



## bowman (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> Behind every anorexic is someone supporting them in a fairly sedentary and indulged lifestyle, imho.




In my personal experience I would unfortunately have to agree. A friends wife fit that bill perfectly, until she passed away from her disease a couple of years ago.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> not that I am nit picking gg, cos you seem like a reasonable bloke, but gdp is consumption of all goods and services........which is why it is a crap indicator in many ways.....if there's more truck accidents, and need for medical treatment and panel beating, GDP goes up.
> 
> though my specialty is headaches and neck trauma.....which cause a lot of lost productivity....getting computer programmers, builders, plumbers, truckies, barristers, judges, etc back to work a couple of days earlier is my net contribution to GDP.






bowman said:


> Well I tracked down some Essene sprouted grain bread yesterday in the refrigerator
> section of a health food store.
> 
> It's quite a departure from what otherwise passes for bread. This stuff is DENSE!
> ...




thanks for the advice guys, all good if you are obsessive , but most of us are not.

What doctors need to realise is that they are a service industry, just like a coffee shop, trades assistant or a lawn mowing business.

The people who determine our wealth are farmers, miners and inustrialists.

Actors, entaertainment provide tittilation and occasionally a big win like Hoges.

Doctors preach at people and are in the hold of either the Guvment or bigPharma to dope people out to make a profit, pure and simple, or to deny them essential services by building a huge bureaucracy in the case of Guvment.

All this wheat crap, is just that, crap.

I eat usually good food , pasta, steak, eyetie, chinese and salami.

I could not give a stuff whether I die today or in forty years time.

The problem is with all these obsessive old farts who want to live forever.

We are keeping all these people alive and will pay for it in 20 years time with huge asylums full of demented old yorks with current gym and health food shop memberships.

gg


----------



## bowman (8 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> thanks for the advice guys, all good if you are obsessive , but most of us are not.
> 
> What doctors need to realise is that they are a service industry, just like a coffee shop, trades assistant or a lawn mowing business.
> 
> ...




Is that your B-double parked in this forum?

Move along please sir - it's blocking the traffic.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 May 2009)

bowman said:


> Is that your B-double parked in this forum?
> 
> Move along please sir - it's blocking the traffic.




thanks mate,

All these veinful gym adddicts and wheaten wizards miss out so much on the good things in life.

This is not my rig, but ain't it beautiful.

The driver of this can be assured of a good food and bedding and possibly what the Ruddmeister missed out at Scores in any Western town.

Bugger health and fitness.

Its what you do with it that counts.


----------



## gav (8 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> thanks for the advice guys, all good if you are *obsessive *, but most of us are not.




To quote Arnold:

"Obsessed is a word lazy people use to describe someone who is dedicated." 

Obesity puts a FAR greater strain on our health system and tax payers than fit/healthy people ever will.  

The topic of obesity is very close to my heart.  My best friend was obese.  He died in his sleep.  The autopsy revealed his arteries were clogged and he died of a heart attack.  He was just 23 years old. 

It is so sad that his life was cut so short.  He'll never get to travel like he dreamed to.  He was a kind, caring, sweet guy who will be remembered for helping those less fortunate than himself.  It's a shame he didn't help himself...


----------



## motorway (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> yes that's a common criticism of health food nuts and vegetarians......but keep in mind many people who feel unwell or have had chronic illness, take an interest in healthier eating.......it isn't necessarily their interest in healthier eating that makes them look sick.
> 
> nevertheless, anorexia and body image issues are a serious problem for many women. Personally I reckon a lot of them wouldn't get that way if they had some bloody responsibility to do a bit of manual work every week. Behind every anorexic is someone supporting them in a fairly sedentary and indulged lifestyle, imho.




Where do you get long chain Omega 3
with a vegan diet ?

Where does the Pritikin/Ornish diet provide them ?

If you say from a capsule

Well you are not starting with a wholesome natural human diet
But a deficient one..

Taurine
Vitamin A ( not same as beta carotene )
Zinc
B 12

etc

All these things esp long chain omega 3
should be provided by diet
ALA is not same
and liver has limited ability to convert

important eg macular degeneration epidemic
melanoma epidemic
etc


motorway


----------



## helicart (8 May 2009)

Why I prefer truckies wide awake and healthy.






yes that's a car between the truck and wall.


----------



## disarray (8 May 2009)

gav said:


> Check this out...
> 
> http://thisiswhyyourefat.com/




i'm pretty fit, but goddamn that bacon crust pizza with bacon possesses a major amount of win. i'm more than happy to do extra work tomorrow to make up for that.


----------



## helicart (8 May 2009)

motorway said:


> Where do you get long chain Omega 3
> with a vegan diet ?
> 
> Where does the Pritikin/Ornish diet provide them ?
> ...




 Problems with essential fatty acids: time for a new paradigm? 


Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

Coronary heart disease mortality among Seventh-Day Adventists with differing dietary habits: a preliminary report


----------



## motorway (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> Problems with essential fatty acids: time for a new paradigm?
> 
> 
> Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?
> ...




Study from way back in 2003 ?

is hardly preliminary

More like old hat.

motorway


----------



## jonojpsg (8 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> thanks for the advice guys, all good if you are obsessive , but most of us are not.
> 
> What doctors need to realise is that they are a service industry, just like a coffee shop, trades assistant or a lawn mowing business.
> 
> ...




What truck drivers need to realise is that they are a service industry - they produce nothing


----------



## helicart (8 May 2009)

motorway said:


> Study from way back in 2003 ?
> 
> is hardly preliminary
> 
> ...




I early await the first longitudinal epidemiological paper of Paleo dieters...

At this point, ovo lacto vegetarian SDAs have a definitive physiological and functional health advantage.


----------



## weird (8 May 2009)

Best advise I ever received for the average joe,

For Breakie - bake beans on toast, egg on toast, ham and cheese on toast,chicken and cheese on toast, grill the latter with a sandwich maker, special K, Spanish omelet, oaks

Brunch - Fruit

Lunch - Salad, protein, bit of carbs - Sushi, Kebab, Sumo Salad, 6 inch Subway, or bring your own

Afternoon knack - nut bar

Dinner - too easy - tuna/chicken/steak/lamb with salad, add some carbs - ratio 1/4 carbs/1/4 protein/1/2 salad ... don't eat crap which includes chips.

Also get a pedometer, make sure you do 10,000 steps  every day ... do this , you don't need a personal trainer.

Want to tone up, look at free weight ... push ups, sit ups, nearby anything that allows you to do pull ups.

Eat and exercise how we are supposed to. No need for anything extreme at all.


----------



## motorway (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> I early await the first longitudinal epidemiological paper of Paleo dieters...
> 
> At this point, ovo lacto vegetarian SDAs have a definitive physiological and functional health advantage.






So I take it from your response
that Dean Ornish claims long chain Omega 3 is unnecessary
in the diet


That was the question I asked 

If so that is good to know  

Paleo is a word covers many things
some things that are clearly not Paleo

In any case

There is a terrific amount of research
being done


Evolutionary perspectives are informing
many aspects of medicine and health

look at supplementation of infant formulas
With DHA etc



motorway


----------



## helicart (8 May 2009)

motorway said:


> So I take it from your response
> that Dean Ornish claims long chain Omega 3 is unnecessary
> in the diet
> 
> ...




My view is that every couple of years, someone comes along and puts a new brick in the wall of scientific knowledge. Many knowingly or unknowingly place more weight on that one brick than the whole wall.....and build religious zeal for that. 

I am 50, and have been interested in natural therapies and diet since I was 14. I've seen one fad after another come and go in the alternative field and the medical field. 

Maybe you are right that longitundinal studies of paleo diet will reveal some health advantage......

At this point, Dean Ornish's research upholds many of the papers I've read through the years. Though I am not a dietitian or gastroenterologist, and do not avidly keep up with all the issues. 

If you want to know the detail of his views on PUFAs, they are probably out there in google land or on medline.

What I'd recommend though if you want to search medline, is first read literature review articles that orient you on an issue, and help clarify who the respected peers are.

Now I am off to bed as I have to be up for a nice 70k cycle early in the morning.....before the truckies get out after a night on the fatty food and booze....


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> My view is that every couple of years, someone comes along and puts a new brick in the wall of scientific knowledge. Many knowingly or unknowingly place more weight on that one brick than the whole wall.....and build religious zeal for that.
> 
> I am 50, and have been interested in natural therapies and diet since I was 14. I've seen one fad after another come and go in the alternative field and the medical field.
> 
> ...




Mate.

Just be aware that in 1 or 200 years folk will access this site and giggle about your anal take on diet.

What goes down, comes out.

gg

M


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> My view is that every couple of years, someone comes along and puts a new brick in the wall of scientific knowledge. Many knowingly or unknowingly place more weight on that one brick than the whole wall.....and build religious zeal for that.
> 
> I am 50, and have been interested in natural therapies and diet since I was 14. I've seen one fad after another come and go in the alternative field and the medical field.
> 
> ...




Mate.

Just be aware that in 1 or 200 years folk will access this site and giggle about your anal take on diet.

What goes down, comes out.

gg


----------



## motorway (8 May 2009)

helicart said:


> My view is that every couple of years, someone comes along and puts a new brick in the wall of scientific knowledge. Many knowingly or unknowingly place more weight on that one brick than the whole wall.....and build religious zeal for that.
> 
> I am 50, and have been interested in natural therapies and diet since I was 14. I've seen one fad after another come and go in the alternative field and the medical field.
> 
> ...






> Dr. Ornish: We recommend a total daily dose of 1000 mg of EPA and DHA combined. Fish oil supplements vary in their eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) content. Aim for a dosage that includes approximately 600 mg EPA and 400 mg DHA per day. *This dosage is usually found in three grams of fish oil in capsule form per day. *





What is wrong with a diet that you need to supplement
To this extent ?

maybe LOTS ?

DYOR

DHA is so important for infants
it only gets into breast milk
If it is in the Mothers Diet

same way EPA & DHA gets into and makes up cellular membranes in your body
( in the skin , brain . macular etc etc )

for discussion

motorway


----------



## helicart (9 May 2009)

motorway said:


> What is wrong with a diet that you need to supplement
> To this extent ?
> 
> maybe LOTS ?
> ...




I'll try and read up on PUFAs over the next week Motor, as it is flavor of the month in nutrition.

The comment I made earlier about one brick being overly emphasized in the wall of scientific knowledge applies here. 

I accept Ornish advocates EFA supplementation, which is testament to his respect for current scientific consensus. As far as I know, he is a dedicated vegetarian who has for decades followed the teachings of a Hindu Yogi Swami Satchidananda. 

However, there are examples of landlocked communities (Ecuador, Bhutan, Tibet) who rarely if ever eat fish, and only minimal other flesh....certainly not enough to meet the levels the literature advocates.

Considering these communities have survived for thousands of years, you have to assume DHA has not been an issue for lactating mothers or anyone else. 

Females also have a greater ability to convert ALA into EFA and DHA.

Seventh Day adventists also have a long history of giving birth to and rearing healthy children. 

Further, an old peer of mine once said it doesn't pay to get too hung up on every micronutrient. She told of her experiences in Nazi occupied Poland, where she followed more than 12 women as they gave birth to and nurture healthy normal babies on a diet of flour and condensed milk.

Finally, inflammation certainly is a modern day scourge. However, it is not well elucidated what the cause of the this scourge is. n6:n3 ratio to my knowledge has not been proven to be the essential cause. It may very well be non diet related.


----------



## motorway (9 May 2009)

> Considering these communities have survived for thousands of years, you have to assume DHA has not been an issue for lactating mothers or anyone else.




You have a very piecemeal approach 

Humans have survived on all sorts of diets

even very bad ones

an optimal diet will provide all nutrients
without the need for supplements 

with low anti nutrient load

eg

Humans can not make Vitamin C
So it has to come from food

slaves and serfs throughout  the ages
have lived on shocking diets

people live on cigarettes and whiskey

but all that means ZIP

If we need B12  . Zinc .. Iodine
If we need long chaing omega 3
if we need Taurine 

Vitamin A etc etc

And we need to fortify or supplement as a matter of course
Then the diet being promoted is not optimal
or built on sound principles

or a natural Human being Diet

It is a fad diet

And instead of being in nature

You are in a feedlot
with all the supplements they needed

YES don't focus on one nutrient or
one disease process

Get back to first principles
and a holistic approach

forget the Swami  imo

and look to Science based evidence





> *Timeframe for cereal grain domestication.* There are 8 major cereal grains which are consumed by modern man (wheat, rye, barley, oats, corn, rice, sorghum, and millet) [Harlan 1992]. Each of these grains were derived from wild precursors whose original ranges were quite localized [Harlan 1992]. Wheat and barley were domesticated only ~10,000 years ago in the Near East; rice was domesticated approximately 7,000 years ago in China, India, and southeast Asia; corn was domesticated 7,000 years ago in Central and South America; millets were domesticated in Africa 5,000-6,000 years ago; sorghum was domesticated in East Africa 5,000-6,000 years ago; rye was domesticated ~5,000 years ago in southwest Asia; and oats were domesticated ~3,000 years ago in Europe.
> 
> Consequently, the present-day edible grass seeds simply would have been unavailable to most of mankind until after their domestication because of their limited geographic distribution. Also, the wild version of these grains were much smaller than the domesticated versions and extremely difficult to harvest [Zohary 1969].
> 
> ...






> *Repercussions of antinutrient load. *
> 
> As has been suggested by John Yudkin almost 30 years ago, cereal grains are a relatively recent food for hominids and our physiologies are still adjusting and adapting to their presence. Clearly, no human can live on a diet composed entirely of cereal grains (for one thing they have no vitamin C).
> 
> ...







motorway


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (9 May 2009)

motorway said:


> You have a very piecemeal approach
> 
> Humans have survived on all sorts of diets
> 
> ...




Don't worry mate,

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

If I ever get short of a quid I'll open a fat farm/beauty feed lot.

I just haven't presently got the the patience to put up with the dills who'd sign up.

But if times get tough , thats where I'll be.

gg


----------



## bowman (10 May 2009)

I just made the best tasting Green Smoothie so far. The Starfruit tree and Lime tree in the back yard are fruiting their heads off so I added a bit of each.

Blend the following:

Big handful of dandelion leaves and Spinach leaves
1/2 banana
1/3 Starfruit
1/2 Lime
1/2 Orange
(optional 1/2 tsp agave nectar sweetener)

Here's what the nutrient count looks like.

Dandelion leaves: A good source of Folate, Magnesium, Phosphorus and Copper, 
and a very good source of Dietary Fiber, Vitamin A, Vitamin C, Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol), 
Vitamin K, Thiamin, Riboflavin, Vitamin B6, Calcium, Iron, Potassium and Manganese.

Spinach leaves: A good source of Niacin and Zinc, and a very good source of Dietary Fiber, 
Protein, Vitamin A, Vitamin C, Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol), Vitamin K, Thiamin, Riboflavin, 
Vitamin B6, Folate, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Copper and Manganese

Banana: A good source of Dietary Fiber, Vitamin C, Potassium and Manganese, 
and a very good source of Vitamin B6

Starfruit: A good source of Pantothenic Acid and Potassium, and a very good source of
Dietary Fiber, Vitamin C and Copper.

Limes: A good source of Calcium, Iron and Copper, and a very good source of 
Dietary Fiber and Vitamin C

Orange: A good source of Thiamin, Folate and Potassium, and a very good source of
Dietary Fiber and Vitamin C


If this doesn't appeal, then pull into the nearest truck stop cafe and fill yourself up with transfats instead.


----------



## helicart (10 May 2009)

motorway said:


> You have a very piecemeal approach
> 
> 
> forget the Swami  imo
> ...





I am all for respecting the science. So show me the science showing a Paleo diet gives a survival advantage in the long term for mankind living a contemporary western lifestyle.


----------



## motorway (10 May 2009)

Heli 

there is mountains of stuff out there

Bit you need to seek facts and be unbiased ( don't we all )

eg

you said

* However, there are examples of landlocked communities (Ecuador, Bhutan, Tibet) who rarely if ever eat fish, and only minimal other flesh....certainly not enough to meet the levels the literature advocates.
*











> The most important crop in Tibet is barley, and dough made from barley flour called tsampa, is the staple food of Tibet. This is either rolled into noodles or made into steamed dumplings called momos. Meat dishes are likely to be yak, goat, or mutton, often dried, or cooked into a spicy stew with potatoes. *Mustard seed is cultivated in Tibet*, and therefore features heavily in its cuisine. Yak yoghurt, butter and cheese are frequently eaten, and well-prepared yoghurt is considered something of a prestige item. Butter tea is very popular to drink.
> 
> Due to the high altitude of Tibet, the water boils at 90 degree Celsius, and cooking with water is impossible. The diet and foods are peculiar in Tibet.
> 
> *The Tibetan diet consists mostly of meat, milks and other high-protein foods. The main staple is `tsamba'. Tea is a necessary. Travelers usually bring dried meat, tsamba, and tea for foods.*




Just like The difference between the Okinawans was their low grain consumption ( staple is sweet potato ) and high fish consumption compared to USA



in any case it is not my place to preach diet

But start from what nutrients are required
and go to what unprocessed foods can provide

eg all grain based foods are processed

eg an apple is not

evolutionary perspective is the right starting point
it is for all other aspects of the human condition

best of health
motorway


----------



## helicart (10 May 2009)

motorway said:


> Heli
> 
> there is mountains of stuff out there
> 
> ...




Evolutionary perspective is only one piece of info, and not necessarily the best....genetic expression is not fixed in concrete.......environment does influence DNA transcription, via environmental pH, osmolarity, and oxygen concentration to name a few.

YOu and I will both be dead before an optimal diet is elaborated for the whole of mankind. 

So you and I will just have to eat based on the literature as it presents today, or personal bias.


----------



## motorway (10 May 2009)

The Tibetan diet consists mostly of meat, milks and other *high-protein foods*.



You made it sound like they were on the ornish diet 




> Because the estimated amount of genetic change (0.005%) which has occurred in the human genome over this time period is negligible, *the genetic makeup of modern man has remained essentially unchanged from that of pre-agricultural man *




because all infants drink milk ( human )

the extension to lactose tolerance in adults over the last 10,000 years is not surprising or mean that milk is healthy ( just that it can be better tolerated )
it is not much of an adaption..

( the literature discusses this point )

but you miss the point

your quotes have no logic

Okinawans eat pork use pork fat
eat fish

you had them on the ornish diet too...

you have everyone on the ornish diet 

hunter gatherers
pre agricultural man

NEVER

nor it seems Okinawans or Tibetans

and those who do consume extensive grain based diets
maybe it is the insect contamination that gets them by

eg weevils are a source of B 12

true ... papers even out there on this

So don't remove the weevils  

motorway


----------



## motorway (10 May 2009)

The yak is truly "the treasure of the Plateau" as the inscription reads below the golden statue of yaks located in a busy intersection in downtown Lhasa.

 In the mountain tundra and ice desert of the Tibetan Plateau with altitudes soaring over 19,000 feet, yaks flourish where other domestic beasts die. Because of this, the people inhabiting this region use the yak for everything.

"The yak is inescapable in Lhasa. The acrid, slightly sour smell of yak butter permeates the streets and temples where pilgrims burn the whitish yellow fat at innumerable altars and carry smoking candles through the streets."


Milk:
Yak milk is golden in color and very rich in fat at 7-8%. It has a sweetish taste.
Milk production from yaks is seasonal. 
Hybrid yaks tend to yield more milk.
Milk can be rendered into powder, butter, yogurt, cheese, and Kurut.
Kurut is made from curdled milk which is churned, boiled and then drained.
The cream from yak milk, called Kaimak, thick, sweet, and yellow with a flavor like almonds.
Yak cheese is a hard, Swiss style cheese that fetches high prices in Kathmandu.
Tea is made with yak milk and is a staple part of the diet of Tibetan yak herders. Milk is also added to mushrooms to make a milk-mushroom stew.
Butter is the principal product from yak milk. It is a staple food for herdsmen and locals. Tea can be made from butter.

Meat: 
Yak meat is beef-like, but more delicate in flavor, contains no marbling because the yak is a cold climate animal, and the fat is located around the outside of the body.
The fat content of yak meat is low (3.8%, 1/16th the fat of beef).
The cholesterol level is under 50.
Yak meat is high in protein (22.95%), and has less calories than beef or chicken breast!
In Central Asia yak meat is dried, or deep frozen in natures own freezer, for storage and portability.


----

No need for weevils  

Yak meat = Paleo meat

and would contain long chain omega



motorway


----------



## helicart (10 May 2009)

motorway said:


> Meat:
> Yak meat is beef-like, but more delicate in flavor, contains no marbling because the yak is a cold climate animal, and the fat is located around the outside of the body.
> The fat content of yak meat is low (3.8%, 1/16th the fat of beef).
> The cholesterol level is under 50.
> ...




What I originally said

 However, there are examples of landlocked communities (Ecuador, Bhutan, Tibet) who rarely if ever eat fish, and only minimal other flesh....certainly not enough to meet the levels the literature advocates. 

What the literature says:_

"The main staple food, tsampa (Tibetan toasted
flour) was made from barley. Wheat and maize
were also eaten in Tibet. Most of the Tibetans in
Tibet preferred three regular meals in a day. The
first meal was taken in the morning usually with
tsampa soup, sometimes with roasted soyabeans, 
pieces of chura (dried cheese), butter and 
occasionally with dried meat and tsilu (dried fat).
They took hot buttered tea with the soup. The
major meal of the day was served at noon and
dinner was always light. The native Tibetans
confined themselves to eating mutton and pork
as much as necessary. Beef was not a taboo in
ancient Tibet but they refrained themselves from
eating water born animals such as fish, crabs,
shrimps and various other seafood. They believed
it was sinful to kill an animal with full of life."_

Note they don't do fish.

The graph below shows Tibetan women do 11% PRO and 70% CHO, hardly a Paleo diet, and not enough for EPA and DHA in Paleo quantities, especially when you consider the protein contribution from their high intake of grains and pulses


----------



## motorway (11 May 2009)

> Although yaks characterise Tibetan pastoralism, sheep are usually more important economically. Sheep provide wool, meat, hides, and, in many areas, are also milked.
> In western Tibet, an average nomad family may raise 300-400 sheep.
> 
> *A family with this many sheep would slaughter 30 sheep every year for their own meat consumption. The wool from Tibetan sheep is also one of the best carpet wools in the world.*




But still it is not the point that matters 

motorway


----------



## motorway (11 May 2009)

Tibetan sheep being milked near Mun Tso at about 5000 m in west central Tibet. Sheep lamb in February and March and, beginning in June, after the lambs are weaned, sheep are milked twice a day.




> In 2000, various livestock numbered 23 million head, including 4 million head of yaks, 980,000 oxen, 270,000 pien niu, 1.55 million milk cows, 140,000 horses, 11.4 million sheep, 5.77 million goats and 180,000 pigs. The output of meat products reached 149,300 tons, that of dairy products was 204,000 tons and the production of sheep wool came to 8,629 tons.





" What I originally said

However, there are examples of landlocked communities (Ecuador, Bhutan, Tibet) who rarely if ever eat fish, *and only minimal other flesh....certainly not enough to meet the levels the literature advocates*.
 "


Have a look at the landscape you could eat the stones I suppose 



> *A family with this many sheep would slaughter 30 sheep every year for their own meat consumption*. The wool from Tibetan sheep is also one of the best carpet wools in the world.





But it still has nothing to do with what is an optimal diet


motorway


----------



## motorway (11 May 2009)

> studies have shown that certain types of dairy-derived fatty acids, particularly conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), may help fight heart disease, cancer and even diabetes. Previous evidence has linked an increased omega-3 to omega-6 intake ratio to improved health.
> 
> Researchers in Nepal and Canada now report that yak cheese contains higher levels of heart-healthy fats than cheese from dairy cattle; it may be healthier overall. *The higher ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids found in yak's cheese would mean it could be "classified as a healthy food in human diets" by several countries. *




If it is in the milk then it is in the meat 





> . The yak cheese from Nepal was found to contain more polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs).
> 
> Nepalese yak cheese had four times the conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) than Canadian cheddar cheese made from cow's milk (0.87 versus 0.2, respectively).
> 
> ...







> *  "Our results suggest that cheese from yak, grazed on Himalayan alpine pastures, might have a more healthful fatty acid composition compared to cheese manufactured from dairy cattle fed grain-based diets,"  *




Yep, Grain is  really a suitable food for
Birds ( they have crops )

See the animal & hominid studies mentioned earlier

motorway


----------



## helicart (11 May 2009)

motorway said:


> If it is in the milk then it is in the meat
> 
> motorway




OK Motor, I see you prefer to meander off into your own imagined late night postulations, rather than weight published studies appropriately.

Check the table I posted for the average amount of dairy consumed by Tibetan women. 

Good luck on your Paleo diet and getting your grass fed kit. 

Meanwhile I'll weight the scientific opinion that criticizes Cordain appropriately, and await the Paleo zealots production of a longitudinal study of typical sedentary westerners on the diet.


----------



## motorway (11 May 2009)

The Paleo diet

Leads to natural foods

very high nutrient content

away from artificial foods

with trans fats and other anti nutrients...




motorway




> Historical Descriptions of encounters with Hunter-gatherers still on a Paleolithic diet
> 
> In many historical accounts (i.e., Ethnography), European explorers and early settlers are amazed at how healthy native people were, how vital their old people were, and how ailments such as diabetes, heart disease, cancer, auto-immune diseases, and obesity didn't exist (or were extremely rare). These cultures were without exception each on a "Paleolithic diet" ...until trading posts and western food goods, and then they started switching to our "modern", western diet. Following are just a few of these early ethnographic accounts:
> 
> ...






> _Because the estimated amount of genetic change (0.005%) which has occurred in the human genome over this time period is negligible, the genetic makeup of modern man has remained essentially unchanged from that of pre-agricultural man _


----------



## helicart (11 May 2009)

motorway said:


> The Paleo diet
> 
> Leads to natural foods
> 
> ...





You can put your faith in and turn a blind eye to a more objective and considered context, of as many anecdotes as you like Motor. I am sure you would be a lot healthier and happier, if you didn't have to struggle to raise money to pay off a home and bring up children who can't live with computers, xboxes and mobile phones; but in place of, had to expend more energy for short term food security.

Ultimately, psychoemotional stressors stress not only the psyche and emotions, but the physiology. Until the paleo diet is scientifically tested using randomized controlled trials of sufficient size and adequate adherence, on people living typically stressful sedentary competitive and densely populated urban western lifestyles, then its superiority as a diet for such is faith based.

HGs living a life more susceptible to drought, flood, population pressure, and other sources of intermittent food scarcity, will have more intense selection pressure applied to their gene pool. Runts and the weak and mutations that don't offer a selection advantage will be filtered out much more efficiently than has been the course in a JudeoChristian culture that values compassion for the weak and sick, let alone in a free market system where selection favours intelligence and enterprise over physical prowess.


----------



## motorway (11 May 2009)

"_While we can continue to debate (and we should) the exact amounts and rates of change in human physiology and the dietary amount of animal products vs. fruits/vegetables, etc._ - *an obvious fact is that the amount of time we and our ancestors have had mass agriculture and industrial era food is incredibly small indeed … and not debatable.*


When we talk about “evolutionary discordance” in regard to our modern diet vs. the Paleo Diet, this is what it means in one very real sense. A diet based on the way humans ate for a couple million years will lead to optimum health and greatly reduce the risk of degenerative disease."

Loren Cordain





> You can put your faith in and turn a blind eye to a more objective and considered context



Not a matter of faith the above is the considered context that I find a good starting point....

Or do you dispute the dates of Agricultural and Industrial revolutions 

Are you a creationist ?

Is the Swami you were talking about ?

From that starting point
You can go your own way

But unless you disagree with those facts
Why start from somewhere else what ever your "faith"




motorway


----------



## motorway (11 May 2009)

> HGs living a life more susceptible to drought, flood, population pressure, and other sources of intermittent food scarcity, will have more intense selection pressure applied to their gene pool. Runts and the weak and mutations that don't offer a selection advantage will be filtered out much more efficiently than has been the course in a JudeoChristian culture that values compassion for the weak and sick, let alone in a free market system where selection favours intelligence and enterprise over physical prowess.




None of that makes much sense

They do just as worse on modern diets as we do

They do not have superior genes

And I would not doubt there intelligence
or think it inferior to  JudeoChristians

What point are you trying to make with this  ?

That HG were saved 
by Judeochistian culture and western diets

motorway


----------



## helicart (11 May 2009)

motorway said:


> None of that makes much sense
> 
> They do just as worse on modern diets as we do
> 
> ...




Of course not.....JudeoChristians are intent on systematically destroying Indigenous Australian HG life advantage, by giving them money for nothing so they forget their traditional diet, and live and eat like non IA welfare recipients.


----------



## MrBurns (11 May 2009)

Anyone have any thoughts on human growth hormone, I'm told it works.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (11 May 2009)

motorway said:


> None of that makes much sense
> 
> They do just as worse on modern diets as we do
> 
> ...




What are HG's?

The only HG I know is a mate of Roy's.

gg


----------



## bowman (15 May 2009)

I guess it's been a couple of months since I quit drinking and embarked on a more nutritious diet and I have noticed a couple of things that are worth mentioning.

I used to suffer from gastric reflux quite badly and I could rarely get through the night without waking up from it at least once. 

Secondly I also had frequent allergic reactions, often after eating, although I never did work out what specific foods were the problem.

I'm pleased to say that both problems seem to have cleared up.

I have no idea why the heartburn is gone, but I have found out that there is a connection between allergies and diet deficiencies. 

It seems that I have cured my allergy problem simply by improving my nutrition.

I'm in the process of digging up some more info on this, but I did find this link which is an extract from a book titled Allergy and Immunology.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA395,M1


----------



## gav (15 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on human growth hormone, I'm told it works.




Mr Burns, here is an article with plenty of info on HGH, including pro's and con's.


by Cameron Houston and Jill Stark 

The illicit trade in human growth hormone has moved to expensive anti-ageing clinics. Cameron Houston and Jill Stark investigate the boom.

MIDDLE-AGED men are increasingly injecting human growth hormone in a bid to fight old age, spending up to $15,000 a year on a drug they believe is the fountain of youth.

Government guidelines state it should only be prescribed to children with growth disorders and adults with severe hormone deficiencies.

But a Sunday Age investigation has found many anti-ageing clinics in Melbourne's wealthier suburbs are flouting regulations by prescribing to people as young as 35 who want to look good, stay fit and boost their sex lives.

Most are men who use human growth hormone (HGH) to improve fitness and energy levels, but leading specialists claim it can have serious side-effects.

Black-market sales are also booming, with a former dealer claiming $5000 worth of the drug can fetch up to $50,000 on the street. Possession is illegal without a prescription and importation is prohibited.

The dealer said some people were getting the hormone for personal use from anti-ageing clinics then selling it for profit.

Australian Customs has reported a four-fold increase in HGH seizures in the last year. Imports from China have risen steeply but the United States remains the main source of supply.

While six pharmaceutical companies contacted by The Sunday Age refused to confirm figures, a senior industry source said HGH sales had soared during the past two years. 

"There is no logical explanation for the significant rise ”” other than most of it is being taken by middle-aged men trying to look younger," the source said.

John Levin, a 77-year-old Prahran doctor, has been injecting the drug for 15 years and prescribes it to 100 patients who want to delay old age.

He says 70 per cent are men and insists there are no health risks at low doses, typically less than 0.33 milligrams a day.

"I feel great, I feel like I'm 50 ”” and I'm going to be 80 in two years," Dr Levin said. "I don't give it to my patients for aesthetic reasons. I give it purely to get a better quality of life."

Human growth hormone is secreted naturally by the brain's pituitary gland and promotes growth during childhood and adolescence by stimulating production of an insulin-like growth factor in the liver.

Levels of HGH deplete as the body ages. The synthetic form of the hormone ”” which is not on the pharmaceutical benefits scheme ”” is injected daily and costs $125 to $200 a week with a private prescription.

Doctors can prescribe the drug "off-label" ”” outside the purpose approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration ”” if they deem it "medically appropriate".

Human growth hormone builds muscle mass and helps to reduce fat. Some anti-ageing doctors claim the drug also reduces wrinkles, improves skin appearance and lowers cholesterol.

Endocrinologists, who are specialists in hormones and glands, say the claims are not backed by scientific evidence, and have hit out at "unscrupulous" doctors prescribing the drug for non-medical reasons.

They say that for people with a normally functioning pituitary gland, growth hormone treatment is potentially dangerous even in small doses. Ken Ho, chair of endocrinology at St Vincent's Hospital in Sydney, said misuse could increase the risk of cancer and elongate the jaw.

Professor Ho said the medical properties of HGH were being exploited by anti-ageing clinics.

"They are trying to sell an expectation that if you're 55 and you no longer have the body of a 21-year-old, then you can reclaim former glories by taking these drugs. There are claims about improved sex life, which are completely unfounded … They are trying to tell you that ageing is an insidious disease, but there is no hormone that can stop ageing."

Dr Martin Hill, of Life Sense clinic in Windsor, is known to prescribe and supply HGH to men as young as 35, after conducting blood tests and a prostate examination. He is believed to have told patients in consultations that he personally used it and the only side-effect was the cost.

A prominent endocrinologist said he had seen a number of Dr Hill's patients, who had been given an "incredible mixture of medications". One woman was allegedly given five different hormone treatments by Dr Hill and was being sued by an insurance company over a $100,000 debt.

In a letter in response to questions from The Sunday Age, Dr Hill's lawyer wrote: "Dr Hill's management of his patients is supported by substantial scientific and medical research and literature."

Doctors from anti-ageing clinics in Prahran and South Yarra are also prescribing the hormone.

David (not his real name), a health practitioner, was prescribed it a year ago after a serious back injury. He pays $125 a week for the drug, which he injects daily into his stomach. "If I was rich I'd probably use it forever. It's all about a lifestyle, where you want to stay young and fit and healthy and hopefully live to 100," he said.

David was initially rejected by several Melbourne doctors because of his age. "The first guy panicked when he found out I was only 39. Doctors need to move with the times and embrace new ideas," he said.

A Melbourne body builder, who asked not to be named, started taking equine and pig growth hormones about a decade ago and was a dealer in HGH for five years, his supply sourced mainly from South Australia.

He said demand had shifted from body builders to affluent white-collar workers, nightclubs and gays. He also claimed to have supplied an AFL footballer and three professional rugby players, who used it to improve performance.

"When you're training at the gym, you feel like you're bouncing of the walls from one machine to another; it's almost like an amphetamine. It also makes your sex drive go through the roof ”” you'll be having sex twice, three times a day," he said.

Delaying the march of time is big business ”” in the US the anti-ageing sector is expected to rake in $US106 billion ($A139 billion) this year, rising to more than $US115 billion by 2010. The AustralAsian Academy of Anti-Ageing Medicine describes it as the "fastest-growing medical speciality in the world".

Chairman Bill Anton insists the use of growth hormone is a very small part of what they practise and is prescribed to fewer than 10 per cent of patients treated by the academy's 200 members.

He says those who are given the drug are expected to follow a nutrition and exercise regime, and are closely monitored with regular blood tests. But he concedes tighter regulation is needed, as some doctors are not prescribing responsibly.

"There's a whole lot of cowboys who have gone off to do a one-hour seminar somewhere and found out it's the fountain of youth ”” that is not the case. Growth hormone deserves the same level of respect as we give any other hormone," he said.

Dr Anton, a biochemist, said endocrinologists were critical because they feared anti-ageing doctors were encroaching on their patch. He said there was no evidence that growth hormone caused cancer, citing an array of peer-reviewed journal articles that proved it had many benefits.

"With innovation, first everybody calls you a charlatan, a crook, an idiot, and as the momentum builds up they steal the ideas and call it their own. All I'm saying is there is a place and a use for growth hormone."

But while Dr Anton claims it is not used for aesthetic purposes, some in the sector freely admit to prescribing HGH to those who want to lose weight and boost sexual prowess.

Gabrielle Caswell from the Cosmetic Physicians Society of Australia said about 15 per cent of its 450 members prescribed growth hormone.

She said demand soared in 2007 when Hollywood star Sylvester Stallone was caught by customs officials at Sydney Airport trying to bring 48 vials of the drug into Australia. When asked by customs officials why he used it, the actor, then 60, said it gave his body a boost and made him look and feel good, adding: "Doing Rambo is hard work."

Dr Caswell said HGH was popular with men over 45 who often found it dramatically improved their skin. "Inwards, they will tell you that they have a lot more energy and they're obviously very happy with the results if they do actually lose weight and feel more physically attractive," she said.

Use of the drug has divided the sector. Joe Kosterich, head of the Australasian Institute of Antiageing Medicine, said the definition of growth hormone deficiency was a "grey area".

"Generally speaking, most adults are not going to be deficient in human growth hormone, so there is going to be some usage that does skirt close to the legal boundary," he said.

Michael Rich, who runs a cosmetic surgery clinic in Armadale, said patients often asked for growth hormone but he refuses, as prescribing without adequate training would be negligent.

"I had a patient recently who had liposuction and he was a member of one of those gangs. He was a big fella, and he was … (using) a lot of growth hormone every day … I don't know where he was getting it from; he certainly wasn't getting it through medical means," Dr Rich said.

Sports medicine experts believe the use of HGH in elite sports has largely been eradicated since a blood test to detect the substance was introduced before the 2004 Athens Olympics.

Last year, the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority banned cyclist Andrew Wyper after customs seized a shipment of HGH the 20-year-old had been trying to import. Another cyclist, Mark Roland, was also banned last year for using the drug.


----------



## gav (15 May 2009)

_continued..._

The Australian Medical Association is concerned that vulnerable people who will pay anything to stay young are being exploited. But investigations into the prescribing habits of individual doctors are often only launched after a patient makes a complaint. With the long-term effects of HGH still unknown, it is difficult for regulatory bodies to intervene.

Victorian Health Services Commissioner Beth Wilson, who fields consumers' medical complaints, said the anti-ageing industry often exaggerated benefits and played down risks: "It's really scary how people's fear of their own body image and ageing has been manipulated by the industry. 

"But the claims of the anti-ageing industry are doomed to failure because the last time anyone looked at the statistics for human mortality, it was 100 per cent."


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 May 2009)

gav said:


> Mr Burns, here is an article with plenty of info on HGH, including pro's and con's.
> 
> 
> by Cameron Houston and Jill Stark
> ...




I still don't reckon that we should be encouraging you haemorrhoidal fanatics with veins down to your big toes to survive.

You are going to be a huge cost to an overburdened health system.

Why don't you all migrate to California where they will be able to deal with you.

You are un Australian, overmuscled narcissists in my opinion., with piles and varicose veins.

gg


----------



## gav (15 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I still don't reckon that we should be encouraging you haemorrhoidal fanatics with veins down to your big toes to survive.
> 
> You are going to be a huge cost to an overburdened health system.
> 
> ...




GG,

I was merely providing info to Mr Burns, who was asking about HGH. As the article states, the majority who use HGH use it to increase quality of life, not big muscles or athletic performance.

You whinge about Pom's coming over here with their alcohol induced liver problems being a burdon on our health system, but also complain about people into health and fitness people being a burdon too?  You seem to do more whinging than the Pom's that you are whinging about.

Un Australian?  I've spent 4yrs in the ADF and served my country overseas, but I guess that doesn't make me Australian because I don't eat meat pies or get blind drunk every weekend... 

For the record I have never used HGH, but would definitely explore the idea in 20+yrs time if I felt the need.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 May 2009)

gav said:


> GG,
> 
> I was merely providing info to Mr Burns, who was asking about HGH. As the article states, the majority who use HGH use it to increase quality of life, not big muscles or athletic performance.
> 
> ...




Accept your points gav, though do not nessarily agree with them.

Having non producive people going to gyms to prolong their lives is not good, considering that the young who follow on will have less assets to make their life more endurable.

I was in the adf for 10 years and understand where you are coming from.

I just don't want to end up with a mob of demented fit old bastards who we have to care for.

So all this health and fitness stuff to me is pure crap, keeping the anxious well alive to burden future genrations.

I'd prefer to spend the money on parenting skills, decreasing marital breakups and immunisations.

and as for pommies, wel they are pommies.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2009)

gav said:


> GG,
> 
> I was merely providing info to Mr Burns, who was asking about HGH. As the article states, the majority who use HGH use it to increase quality of life, not big muscles or athletic performance.
> 
> ...




Yeah thanks Gav, I spoke to John Levin last week.

It sounds legit, but he says there are other supplements you need to take at the same time and you have to be very dedicated to keep it up.

Says aging strips away muscle, increases body fat and thins the skin.

HGH reverses all that, you will lose 10% body fat with NO exercise, muscle mass will increase and your skin will thicken.

Very tempted to go see him.


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2009)

P/s this isnt about body building it's about staying independent when older, feeling good enjoying life.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Yeah thanks Gav, I spoke to John Levin last week.
> 
> It sounds legit, but he says there are other supplements you need to take at the same time and you have to be very dedicated to keep it up.
> 
> ...






MrBurns said:


> P/s this isnt about body building it's about staying independent when older, feeling good enjoying life.




And Burnsie , if you take it and wake up at 3.30 am on a full moon you will be able to gauge the direction of the ASX 100.

Mate , you have gone down in my opinion.

This is all the type of bull**** that sells blackbox trading software.

You better get some cogent posts going otherwise I'll put you on my ignore list, you poor bastard.

gg


----------



## gav (15 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Accept your points gav, though do not nessarily agree with them.
> 
> Having non producive people going to gyms to prolong their lives is not good, considering that the young who follow on will have less assets to make their life more endurable.
> 
> ...




Well you won't have to worry about a nation of fit old bastards, we are the fattest nation on the planet - which is a huge burden on our health system.  Obesity is the number 1 cause of cardiovascular disease.  Not to mention bigger hospital beds, bigger ambulances, etc... it's us tax payers who have to pay for it.


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And Burnsie , if you take it and wake up at 3.30 am on a full moon you will be able to gauge the direction of the ASX 100.
> 
> Mate , you have gone down in my opinion.
> 
> ...




I'm always the skeptic but gg you HAVE to keep an open mind in this world, never be so jaded by life that your imagination shuts down and you can never accept that perhaps there is an answer out there that you haven't had access to before.

I would be the last to commit to this but the first to try and see some legitimacy in it.


----------



## gav (15 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Yeah thanks Gav, I spoke to John Levin last week.
> 
> It sounds legit, but he says there are other supplements you need to take at the same time and you have to be very dedicated to keep it up.
> 
> ...




Glad to see you are doing your research, not a decision to be made lightly (like many do).  It's always best to be well informed.



MrBurns said:


> P/s this isnt about body building it's about staying independent when older, feeling good enjoying life.




And this would be the only reason I'd consider taking it in the (distant) future too.


----------



## robots (15 May 2009)

hello,

thats what gets me Gav, when you go and sit in the Bourke St Mall in Melbourne and you see the quantity of overweight people getting around

yet the focus is so heavily directed at child obesity, amazing

thankyou
associate professor robots


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm always the skeptic but gg you HAVE to keep an open mind in this world, never be so jaded by life that your imagination shuts down and you can never accept that perhaps there is an answer out there that you haven't had access to before.
> 
> I would be the last to commit to this but the first to try and see some legitimacy in it.




Burnsie, 

of all the people on ASF the last I would thought I would ignore is you.

I won't ignore you because 87& of the time you are on the button.

Are you seeing any naturopaths, taking substances, or off medication that would put you in this place.

Mate, I am seriously pissed with your pushing of substances that are akin to black boxes for newbie investors.

Lets agree to disagree.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Burnsie,
> 
> of all the people on ASF the last I would thought I would ignore is you.
> 
> ...




87% ? I calculate at least 92% LOL

gg, dont ever close your mind, my even looking at this means there is something there, it makes sense it may work , I wont do it because I dont absolutely trust nmy own judgement and it smells of a scam.

I think it probably works but injecting yourself every day ?

I'll choose a mans death -  

Fisrst choice - 

Spinning 360's at 280kph down the freeway in the wet, in a Ferrari F430 in a ball of flame slamming into a bridge pylon.

Second - 

Falling into a vlocano in Hawaii

not - 

Choking on my own dribble in a nursing home.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> 87% ? I calculate at least 92% LOL
> 
> gg, dont ever close your mind, my even looking at this means there is something there, it makes sense it may work , I wont do it because I dont absolutely trust nmy own judgement and it smells of a scam.
> 
> ...




Mate you have rehabilitated yourself.

Remember the old adge, if something sounds too good to be true it probaly ain't.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Mate you have rehabilitated yourself.
> 
> Remember the old adge, if something sounds too good to be true it probaly ain't.
> 
> gg




But maybe one day it will be I hope I'm there when it is, and you too mate


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> But maybe one day it will be I hope I'm there when it is, and you too mate




I can hear where you are coming from, check with your children or grandchildren , they have all the uppers and downers anyone could wish for, all for 
$20 a pop.

Take care mate.

gg


----------



## Julia (15 May 2009)

gav said:


> Well you won't have to worry about a nation of fit old bastards, we are the fattest nation on the planet - which is a huge burden on our health system.  Obesity is the number 1 cause of cardiovascular disease.  Not to mention bigger hospital beds, bigger ambulances, etc... it's us tax payers who have to pay for it.



Yes, you're entirely right, gav.   I doubt very much we are at risk of too many fit and healthy people.

Mr Burns, my father was prescribed HGH in his 80's, injected it into his stomach every day or alternate days, can't quite remember now.  It was a very small needle and he didn't find it difficult at all.   He was having kidney problems and a nephrologist suggested it would help.  I don't actually recall it making much difference so I wouldn't get too excited about its potential to make you young again.

Just reducing the booze, and getting into regular really nutritious food, plus plenty of exercise will add more years  to your life  and happiness to your disposition than various pharmaceutical substances.


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2009)

Julia said:


> Just reducing the booze, and getting into regular really nutritious food, plus plenty of exercise will add more years  to your life  and happiness to your disposition than various pharmaceutical substances.




Marry me, you sound like the perfect wife


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Marry me, you sound like the perfect wife




First proposal of marriage on ASF.


gg


----------



## Pappon (16 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on human growth hormone, I'm told it works.




I took it for 1 month, reduced fat where i injected it in a VERY noticable way i also had alot more energy day to day, would i use it again, yes. Would i use it for prolonged periods yes.
Side effects i got *absolutely none **side effects are in fact noted as rare*, use it like any other thing don't abuse it. Cost is a big thing. People were commenting on my skin saying "your skin looks really good lately" that was funny.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 May 2009)

Pappon said:


> I took it for 1 month, reduced fat where i injected it in a VERY noticable way




I'm no quack, but I don't think its supposed to be injected into your dong.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (16 May 2009)

Pappon said:


> I took it for 1 month, reduced fat where i injected it in a VERY noticable way i also had alot more energy day to day, would i use it again, yes. Would i use it for prolonged periods yes.
> Side effects i got *absolutely none **side effects are in fact noted as rare*, use it like any other thing don't abuse it. Cost is a big thing. People were commenting on my skin saying "your skin looks really good lately" that was funny.




I wish you hadn't said that, now I'm tempted.

Did you go to John Levin ?

What did it cost you ? 

How long ago ?

Did you have to take anything else with it ?

How did you feel when you came off it ?

Did you come off it because of cost ?

I presume everything is back the way it was now you're off it ?


----------



## bowman (16 May 2009)

This product might be worth researching as an alternative to expensive injections. It doesn't contain HGH but is supposed to stimulate your body's production of HGH.

http://www.hghformulation.com/

Here's a supplier.

http://www.achievesupplements.com.au/productdetails.php?pid=678&utm_source=getprice&utm_medium=cpc


----------



## kitehigh (16 May 2009)

Hgh was the drug of choice for a lot of elite sportsman and woman.  Probable still is but it can be detected now so they have to be a lot more careful when using it.

I have a friend who used it for a month and his fitness and conditioning improved a lot.  It is expansive though and like every thing shouldn't be abused.  I would consider taking it in the future to give the body a much needed rebuild.  For me its about having a good quality of life when I am older.  

I remember years ago on 60 minutes they ran a show on the old in the US who were paying big bucks and on a cocktail of drugs to keep them young.  Hgh was one of this drugs.  They also were on a good diet and training routine which is probably the most important thing, not just the drugs alone.


----------



## white_goodman (16 May 2009)

bowman said:


> This product might be worth researching as an alternative to expensive injections. It doesn't contain HGH but is supposed to stimulate your body's production of HGH.
> 
> http://www.hghformulation.com/
> 
> ...




what you find in the supplement industry is a lot of products are passed off as the real thing but is not even close to the same....

lots of over the counter stuff like Anabolic or Steroidz etc etc.... illegal sounding products that are legal....

however there are 'legalish' things called pro-hormones that can have quite a few side effects with half the effectiveness and double the price...

I'd be wary of anything like test boosters or HGH boosters....


----------



## white_goodman (16 May 2009)

kitehigh said:


> Hgh was the drug of choice for a lot of elite sportsman and woman.  Probable still is but it can be detected now so they have to be a lot more careful when using it.
> 
> I have a friend who used it for a month and his fitness and conditioning improved a lot.  It is expansive though and like every thing shouldn't be abused.  I would consider taking it in the future to give the body a much needed rebuild.  For me its about having a good quality of life when I am older.
> 
> I remember years ago on 60 minutes they ran a show on the old in the US who were paying big bucks and on a cocktail of drugs to keep them young.  Hgh was one of this drugs.  They also were on a good diet and training routine which is probably the most important thing, not just the drugs alone.




Sly Stallone swears by HGH, alot of people wouldnt go without, in terms of anti-aging...


----------



## MrBurns (16 May 2009)

bowman said:


> This product might be worth researching as an alternative to expensive injections. It doesn't contain HGH but is supposed to stimulate your body's production of HGH.
> 
> http://www.hghformulation.com/
> 
> ...




Thats great many thanks bowman, I think this may be worth giving a try


----------



## MrBurns (16 May 2009)

white_goodman said:


> what you find in the supplement industry is a lot of products are passed off as the real thing but is not even close to the same....
> 
> lots of over the counter stuff like Anabolic or Steroidz etc etc.... illegal sounding products that are legal....
> 
> ...




Ok so how do I tell if this is worth a shot ?


----------



## Pappon (16 May 2009)

white_goodman said:


> what you find in the supplement industry is a lot of products are passed off as the real thing but is not even close to the same....
> 
> lots of over the counter stuff like Anabolic or Steroidz etc etc.... illegal sounding products that are legal....
> 
> ...




very good post and very correct!!!


----------



## Pappon (16 May 2009)

bowman said:


> This product might be worth researching as an alternative to expensive injections. It doesn't contain HGH but is supposed to stimulate your body's production of HGH.
> 
> http://www.hghformulation.com/
> 
> ...




If you want the effects of HGH it needs to be injected


----------



## bowman (16 May 2009)

HGH is produced in the body by the pituitary gland. What I am suggesting is that there may be ways to stimulate the pituitary gland to produce more HGH, rather than injecting it into the body, which frankly seems  a rather expensive to do on an ongoing basis.


----------



## kitehigh (16 May 2009)

From what I understand the HGH levels in the body peak during adolescence. 
After you turn 21 HGH levels fall by about 14% per decade.  So as an older (40+) person injecting HGH you are merely returning the HGH levels into the body back to somewhere where it was when you were younger.  

Like any newish drug we won't know the long term negative side effects(if any) for some time.  Although if you are already suffering and injecting HGH has a positive effect on your overall health than I would think the risk already outway the negatives.


----------



## Pappon (16 May 2009)

bowman said:


> HGH is produced in the body by the pituitary gland. What I am suggesting is that there may be ways to stimulate the pituitary gland to produce more HGH, rather than injecting it into the body, which frankly seems  a rather expensive to do on an ongoing basis.




yes your correct stating the pituitary gland but using those supplements will produce nothing if any of an increase in HGH and it will not produce the effects that Mr Burns is after, fat loss reversing back the clock, etc type stuff. For that you need the injectable synthetic to get the results


----------



## Pappon (16 May 2009)

kitehigh said:


> From what I understand the HGH levels in the body peak during adolescence.
> After you turn 21 HGH levels fall by about 14% per decade.  So as an older (40+) person injecting HGH you are merely returning the HGH levels into the body back to somewhere where it was when you were younger.
> 
> Like any newish drug we won't know the long term negative side effects(if any) for some time.  Although if you are already suffering and injecting HGH has a positive effect on your overall health than I would think the risk already outway the negatives.




HGH is not new, bodybuilders have been using HGH since Arnold was bodybuilding. 

Most side effects are non existant and it is one of the "safer" drugs out there when used at low does this is well know, as with anything don't abuse it.

Hgh i have and i will definately use it again in the future however you really want at least a 6months -1 years cycle for it to do it's magic


----------



## motorway (16 May 2009)

HGH-----------> deep coordinated breathing with body movement + good night sleep..


On some supplements that maybe have connection to aging

Acetyl l carnitine + Lipioc Acid  ( Bruce Ames )


But everything should start with diet and life style

And things one should stop doing as well as things one should be doing




> Moving in rhythm with deep breathing has the additional benefit of increasing levels of growth hormone. Growth hormone regulates the body's metabolism of protein, carbohydrate, and fat. It stimulates growth and rebuilding of the body. In grown-ups, high (but not pathological) natural levels of growth hormone will not increase height, of course, but help rebuild the body after exercise.
> 
> Growth hormone promotes fat loss and muscle gain; it strengthens ligaments, bone, and joint cartilage and even thickens the skin.
> 
> ...




motorway


----------



## Pappon (16 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I wish you hadn't said that, now I'm tempted.
> 
> Did you go to John Levin ?
> No
> ...



i keep my bodyfat levels fairly low normally so that's okay i'd just say your not on as much of a "high" as when you were taking it


----------



## MrBurns (16 May 2009)

> $500 for 100 iu basically $5 an IU normally with a doc you'd probably pay $12 an IU




Sorry to be dumb but IU is that a a dose or a shot ?

So 100 for $500 would last 3 months ? or 100 days ?

I think I may have it wrong


----------



## MrBurns (16 May 2009)

No I think that may be right, next question is where do I get it for that price ?

You've been a great help Pappon, many thanks.


----------



## Pappon (16 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Sorry to be dumb but IU is that a a dose or a shot ?
> 
> So 100 for $500 would last 3 months ? or 100 days ?
> 
> I think I may have it wrong




International unit, you use an insulin syringe to administer it. 

I used 2 IU Mon-Fri. So you could say 10 weeks 2.5 months. 

I personally would stay at 2IU per day  

You wouldn't get it for $500 from a doctor


----------



## Julia (16 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Marry me, you sound like the perfect wife



Hm, it would take some considerable attraction to induce me to ever get married again!  Nothing personal, Mr Burns.


----------



## white_goodman (16 May 2009)

Pappon said:


> Yes, i plan to trade my way to financial freedom so i can support my bodybuilding/fitness lifestyle which i love




i think im in the same boat, its a lot easier being natural when im younger and poor atm


----------



## gav (16 May 2009)

white_goodman said:


> what you find in the supplement industry is a lot of products are passed off as the real thing but is not even close to the same....
> 
> lots of over the counter stuff like Anabolic or Steroidz etc etc.... illegal sounding products that are legal....
> 
> ...




I thought pro-hormones were illegal in Aust?


----------



## MrBurns (16 May 2009)

Julia said:


> Hm, it would take some considerable attraction to induce me to ever get married again!  Nothing personal, Mr Burns.




Well I'll just go over in the corner there and play hard to get, you'll be sorry:


----------



## Julia (16 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Well I'll just go over in the corner there and play hard to get, you'll be sorry:



Ah, now you're talking.  Nothing like a challenge, Mr Burns!


----------



## MrBurns (16 May 2009)

Julia said:


> Ah, now you're talking.  Nothing like a challenge, Mr Burns!




Ok ok just be gentle ok ?


----------



## white_goodman (16 May 2009)

gav said:


> I thought pro-hormones were illegal in Aust?




i dont know ive never tried them and i dont buy supps from Australia, overpriced crap if you ask me, stuff like the whole Gaspari range.. superdrol etc...

im quite happy cycling creatine and having plain whey and waxy maize atm, just eating more...

im still doing PB's quite consistently in my 3 lift total.. (squat, dead, bench) with reduced supplementation


----------



## bowman (17 May 2009)

I'm totally sold on my daily 'green smoothie' fix. It's become as much a part of my routine as the walking and dumbbell exercises.

Green leafy vegetables are a powerhouse of vitamins, minerals, fibre and protein. Ditto for fresh fruits.

If you combine them together in a blended smoothie you will get a  massive daily hit of nutrition in a surprisingly tasty package.

I'm using seasonal fruits and right now my favourite addition is limes. They add a fresh tangy flavour to the smoothie. Sweeter fruits like bananas, pears, apple etc. will give a good flavour balance.

This mornings smoothie:

Big handful of mixed greens
1 Lady Finger Banana
1/2 Lime
1/2 Starfruit
1/2 Orange
(water if necessary to make a thinner drink)

This link is an excellent site for discovering the nutritional aspects of a big range of foods. Just enter the food name in the search engine.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2461/2


----------



## gav (18 May 2009)

white_goodman said:


> i dont know ive never tried them and i dont buy supps from Australia, overpriced crap if you ask me, stuff like the whole Gaspari range.. superdrol etc...
> 
> im quite happy cycling creatine and having plain whey and waxy maize atm, just eating more...
> 
> im still doing PB's quite consistently in my 3 lift total.. (squat, dead, bench) with reduced supplementation




Pro H's are out of the question for me, due to the federations I compete in.

Supp brands such as Gaspari, etc are American brands and are very expensive over here.

I've tried WMS (waxy maize starch), however found it gave me an upset stomach.  I used to use glucose powder in my protein shake post workout, but recently switched to fruit (usually a banana, but not put in my shake).  Fructose replenishes glycogen in the liver better than any other carb.  If your liver doesn't have enough glycogen, it will pull it from your muscles (a mistake I made last time I dieted for a comp).  Plus you get the added benefit of vitamins/minerals from fruit.

For what we are aiming to acheive, diet is far more important than any supplement, so that's where the vast majority of your $$$ should be spent.  I have cut back quite a bit on supp's too (although I still take quite a bit compared to most)


----------



## bowman (18 May 2009)

Hey gav

What would you recommend as the primary supplement for someone like me who is just trying to improve their level of fitness, reduce body fat through good nutrition and build a bit of  muscle mass.


----------



## Pappon (18 May 2009)

bowman said:


> Hey gav
> 
> What would you recommend as the primary supplement for someone like me who is just trying to improve their level of fitness, reduce body fat through good nutrition and build a bit of  muscle mass.




To build muscle go for glutamine, BCAAs and creatine.
Fat loss don't rely on any of them just keep your diet in check bowman and you will reap the rewards


----------



## bowman (18 May 2009)

Thanks pappon

The diet and exercise are pretty well under control, although I want to slowly bump up my dumbbell workouts.

I'll check those supplements out. I have some whey protein but I reckon I am getting enough protein through my diet anyway.


----------



## Green08 (18 May 2009)

I was a member of Fitness First and before then Healthlands. @10years

I've never been so fit or utterly exhausted building a house and rounding the cows up on gumboot.


----------



## bowman (18 May 2009)

Green08 said:


> I was a member of Fitness First and before then Healthlands. @10years
> 
> I've never been so fit or utterly exhausted building a house and rounding the cows up on gumboot.




LOL

I walk past a lot of cows on my morning and afternoon walks. They stare at me with a vacant look on their face, and I reciprocate.

It's a comfortable relationship, but I suspect that cows are dumb as dirt.


----------



## bowman (18 May 2009)

I bought another one of the Essene sprouted grain breads, but this time it was a grain called Kamut, which I confess I had never heard of before.

I prefer this flavour to their sprouted wheat bread and apparently Kamut is packed with significantly more protein and vitamins than wheat.

Next I'll try their spelt bread.

http://www.allaboutbread.com.au/kamut.htm


----------



## white_goodman (18 May 2009)

bowman said:


> Hey gav
> 
> What would you recommend as the primary supplement for someone like me who is just trying to improve their level of fitness, reduce body fat through good nutrition and build a bit of  muscle mass.




the primary supplement would be a good steak haha... I eat a few nagaroo steaks daily, whole (non powdered) will do more than any supplement....

I guess if you have your heart set on supps id reccomend BCAA's, whey or casein protein (i consider more a food then supp) and a good quality multi vitamin... Animal Pak ive had in the past as its pretty good, the run of the mill chemist multi's arent potent enuff imo, they are like minimal requirement type doses...

Gav - ive been using dextrose, maltodextrin and waxy maize for a while now, allows be to restrict my carbs in other meals and still have enough energy for my lifts, and its instant absorbtion practically.


----------



## gav (19 May 2009)

bowman said:


> Hey gav
> 
> What would you recommend as the primary supplement for someone like me who is just trying to improve their level of fitness, reduce body fat through good nutrition and build a bit of  muscle mass.




As you would already know, diet is the most important factor.  A supplement is just that - it "supplements" your diet.  For someone with your goals I would make sure you are getting enough protein in your diet.  Pappon and White Goodman have made some good suggestions.

Personally I'd recommend:
- Whey protein
- Creatine
- Fish oil
- Green Tea

White Goodman - I also use Animal Pak multi's.  They are quite pricey, but they are fantastic.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 May 2009)

bowman said:


> I bought another one of the Essene sprouted grain breads, but this time it was a grain called Kamut, which I confess I had never heard of before.
> 
> I prefer this flavour to their sprouted wheat bread and apparently Kamut is packed with significantly more protein and vitamins than wheat.
> 
> ...






white_goodman said:


> the primary supplement would be a good steak haha... I eat a few nagaroo steaks daily, whole (non powdered) will do more than any supplement....
> 
> I guess if you have your heart set on supps id reccomend BCAA's, whey or casein protein (i consider more a food then supp) and a good quality multi vitamin... Animal Pak ive had in the past as its pretty good, the run of the mill chemist multi's arent potent enuff imo, they are like minimal requirement type doses...
> 
> Gav - ive been using dextrose, maltodextrin and waxy maize for a while now, allows be to restrict my carbs in other meals and still have enough energy for my lifts, and its instant absorbtion practically.






gav said:


> As you would already know, diet is the most important factor.  A supplement is just that - it "supplements" your diet.  For someone with your goals I would make sure you are getting enough protein in your diet.  Pappon and White Goodman have made some good suggestions.
> 
> Personally I'd recommend:
> - Whey protein
> ...




One of my mates is a doctor, a specialist in endocrine which is hormones, and he reckons all that stuff you guys take will make your balls shrink to the size of two frozen peas.

He charges over $200 a visit so he should know.

Why look good if your nuts have shrunk?

gg


----------



## kitehigh (19 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of my mates is a doctor, a specialist in endocrine which is hormones, and he reckons all that stuff you guys take will make your balls shrink to the size of two frozen peas.
> 
> He charges over $200 a visit so he should know.
> 
> ...




Once you have had kids its best to get those nuts removed anyway and replaced with silicon sacks.


----------



## Pappon (20 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of my mates is a doctor, a specialist in endocrine which is hormones, and he reckons all that stuff you guys take will make your balls shrink to the size of two frozen peas.
> 
> He charges over $200 a visit so he should know.
> 
> ...




Haha the reccomended supplements for Bowman here are natural Garpal your friend was talking about anabolic steroids. 
Natural supplements such as creatine, glutamine, fish oil, green tea, whey protein all reccomended to Bowman will have no effect on increasing natural testosterone levels and hence will not shut down his natural testosterone levels.

Creatine works on increasing ATP stores for shorts energy bursts ie weight training. Glutamine is essential to the immune system to prevent overtraining and helps protein synthesis.


----------



## MrBurns (20 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of my mates is a doctor, a specialist in endocrine which is hormones, and he reckons all that stuff you guys take will make your balls shrink to the size of two frozen peas.
> 
> He charges over $200 a visit so he should know.
> 
> ...




Ok count me in it would be great to see them that big again, I was married for 20 years.

Does that include HGH ??? could you ask him ??? because i'm still very interested in that , looking for an excuse to give it a go.


----------



## Pappon (20 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Ok count me in it would be great to see them that big again, I was married for 20 years.
> 
> Does that include HGH ??? could you ask him ??? because i'm still very interested in that , looking for an excuse to give it a go.




No hgh does not do that.


----------



## MrBurns (20 May 2009)

Pappon said:


> No hgh does not do that.




Ok so I guess I'll go further with it, will run it past my GP first, just to see the reaction. Wont do it if it will send me brioke because that will age me and counteract the effects of the HGH........


----------



## Pappon (20 May 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Ok so I guess I'll go further with it, will run it past my GP first, just to see the reaction. Wont do it if it will send me brioke because that will age me and counteract the effects of the HGH........




HAHA. Do yourself a favor ask a doctor who is openminded, most GP's treat most people like that are idiots even when they are well researched and have explained themselves


----------



## bowman (20 May 2009)

Speaking of natural supplements, I don't suppose anyone has tried my green smoothies yet?


I just did a dumbbell workout and following that, as I was making the
smoothie I added some vanilla whey protein to the mix.

Tastes absolutely brilliant!

Todays mix was similar to yesterday.

big handful baby spinach leaves
1/2 starfruit
1/2 lime
1/2 orange
1 lady finger banana
whey protein
water to thin if necessary
optional sweetener to balance the lime - I use a 1/2 tsp agave nectar or
2-3 dates which have been soaked in water.

I'd say there's a decent calorie hit in this mix, but since I'm walking/jogging twice a day now I reckon I can afford it.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (20 May 2009)

Pappon said:


> Haha the reccomended supplements for Bowman here are natural Garpal your friend was talking about anabolic steroids.
> Natural supplements such as creatine, glutamine, fish oil, green tea, whey protein all reccomended to Bowman will have no effect on increasing natural testosterone levels and hence will not shut down his natural testosterone levels.
> 
> Creatine works on increasing ATP stores for shorts energy bursts ie weight training. Glutamine is essential to the immune system to prevent overtraining and helps protein synthesis.






MrBurns said:


> Ok count me in it would be great to see them that big again, I was married for 20 years.
> 
> Does that include HGH ??? could you ask him ??? because i'm still very interested in that , looking for an excuse to give it a go.




Once your nuts have shrunk they don't produce the hormones for erections.

You never see these hairless muscle bound wonders in their pictures with big nuts.

Not that I look that closely, but they all seem deficient down that end.

I reckon good water,air, exercise, food and regular sex is the way to go, not all these greeny blue concoctions.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (20 May 2009)

Just found out i have a stress fracture in my right foot (MRI yesterday) so what can I do wearing one of those freeking boots for 4 weeks ?


----------



## Pappon (20 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Once your nuts have shrunk they don't produce the hormones for erections.
> 
> You never see these hairless muscle bound wonders in their pictures with big nuts.
> 
> ...




No natural supplements are going to make any males balls shrink sounds like you are a bit clueless on this whole issue and running off on a tangent mate


----------



## gav (20 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of my mates is a doctor, a specialist in endocrine which is hormones, and he reckons all that stuff you guys take will make your balls shrink to the size of two frozen peas.
> 
> He charges over $200 a visit so he should know.
> 
> ...




Which "stuff" did he says causes your "balls to shrink"?  None of the natural supplements which you quoted will cause your testicals to shrink.


----------



## gav (20 May 2009)

bowman said:


> Speaking of natural supplements, I don't suppose anyone has tried my green smoothies yet?
> 
> 
> I just did a dumbbell workout and following that, as I was making the
> ...




Bowman, that is quite a smoothie!  I would love to try it, in fact something like that would be ideal post workout.  However it would be quite expensive and time consuming!  My grocery bill is very expensive, and I spend enough time in the kitchen preparing all my meals as it is.  Maybe when I'm on annual leave and I've got a bit more time I'll give it a go!


----------



## gav (20 May 2009)

*What Vitamins/Supplements Do You Take?*

As part of this thread, I thought it would be interesting to see what vitamins and supplements ASF members use.  I'll get the ball rolling:

*Vitamins/Supplements I use every day:* (or nearly every day)
- Multi-vitamin: Animal Pak (contains 11 tablets per serve, I have one serve every day)
- Liquid fish oil (10ml per day)
- Swedish bitters (10ml per day)
- Whey protein isolate
- Whey protein concentrate
- Creatine monohydrate
- Biocharge (caffeine free pre workout drink containing amino's and minerals)

*Vitamins/Supplements I use, but not every day:*
- Inner Health Plus (I take 1 per day for 1 month, then have 2 months off)
- Nutra Life Liver Guard (same as above - 1 month on, 2 months off)
- Glutamine (when feeling sick or dieting for a comp)
- Vitamin C (when feeling sick or dieting for a comp)
- Branch chain amino acids (dieting for comp)
- Green Tea (dieting for comp)
- Hydroxy citric acid (when dieting for comp)


----------



## bowman (20 May 2009)

Hi gav

I'm fortunate in that I have a few fruit trees growing on my property, so the bananas, starfruit, oranges and limes are free at the moment.

Come spring I will be planting some quick growers like native raspberries, guavas, passionfruit, buleberries etc.

I've put in a lot of green leafy vegies seedlings including silver beet, spinach, Kale, bok choy and winter lettuce.

Also I often pick dandelion leaves and cobblers pegs leaves for the green component of the smoothie  from the grounds and on my walks - there's quite a few edible wild greens if you have access to a clean source.

For me the most expensive part is the whey protein.

You can play around with fruit combinations - whatever's on special, and I often freeze fruits (even bananas) for smoothie use.

Just a basic apple, banana, orange mix with some greens is quite nice.

You do need a gutsy blender though, I think mine is 2000W..LOL.

I have to say the vanilla whey protein really adds to the taste and texture, not to mention the protein.


----------



## gouryella (20 May 2009)

*What Vitamins/Supplements Do You Take?*

*Vitamins/Supplements I use every day:*
- BioCeuticals 'Multi Essentials' (multi vitamin)
- BioCeuticals 'Ultra Clean EPA/DHA Plus' (fish oil - 10 per day)
- Nutrimedicine 'Joint Support'
- International Protein 'Superior Whey'
- Green Tea

That's it for me. Pretty basic but I feel as though it's all I need.


----------



## gouryella (21 May 2009)

Interesting article...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 May 2009)

gouryella said:


> *What Vitamins/Supplements Do You Take?*
> 
> *Vitamins/Supplements I use every day:*
> - BioCeuticals 'Multi Essentials' (multi vitamin)
> ...




Pretty Basic,

What a joke.

When I fish I catch some nice reef fish, and they are healthy and fit, and they don't take all your basic mulch.

Where do you find the money to buy food?

gg


----------



## gouryella (21 May 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Pretty Basic,
> 
> What a joke.
> 
> ...



Yes, I would say it's pretty basic in comparison to the list of things other 'gym rats' take. Creatine concoctions, nitric oxide supplements, weight gainers, amino acids, testosterone boosters, thermogenic (fat loss) supplements etc etc...

Not a joke at all.

I guess even my list might look like a lot to your average person who might take a Vitamin C tablet when they have a cold. I do admit that none of things I take are _essential_ in that I could live without them. In reality it costs me bugger all each week, but I get the feeling it would seem more 'normal' to most if I was spending that money on cigarettes.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 May 2009)

gouryella said:


> Yes, I would say it's pretty basic in comparison to the list of things other 'gym rats' take. Creatine concoctions, nitric oxide supplements, weight gainers, amino acids, testosterone boosters, thermogenic (fat loss) supplements etc etc...
> 
> Not a joke at all.
> 
> I guess even my list might look like a lot to your average person who might take a Vitamin C tablet when they have a cold. I do admit that none of things I take are _essential_ in that I could live without them. In reality it costs me bugger all each week, but I get the feeling it would seem more 'normal' to most if I was spending that money on cigarettes.




Fair comment gouryella,

Garpaldog got slack and arthritic due to normal ageing and all the rain we had,  and the vet prescribed some shark fin tablets and fish oil , and he's a new dog.

gg


----------



## travwj (21 May 2009)

Not a bad thread this one, i just have a read every now and then.

Supps at the moment are
Hydroxy Ripped Protein
NOxplode pre work out
Creatine
WPC night protein.

when trying to lose some weight i stop using creatine and start taking some hydroxycut...hopefully to lose the water that the creatine holds and keep some of the muscle ( hopefully ) that i have gained.

Trav


----------



## gav (22 May 2009)

Hi Trav,

No need to stop creatine when dieting.

What brand is your "hydroxyripped" protein?  You could probably buy a basic protein and hca or green tea tabs, would work out cheaper.


----------



## Pappon (22 May 2009)

travwj said:


> Not a bad thread this one, i just have a read every now and then.
> 
> Supps at the moment are
> Hydroxy Ripped Protein
> ...




Yeah i'm with Gav on this one Trawj keep the creatine going


----------



## bowman (4 June 2009)

This book by Michael Pollan is a must read for anyone who is interested in the origins and content of what they put in their mouth!!!

I just heard an extract on Radio National which focused on 'industrial food' (ie fast food) and even though I consider myself to be reasonably aware, I was gobsmacked by what I heard.

I'll be buying this book immediately.

http://www.michaelpollan.com/omnivore.php


----------



## white_goodman (4 June 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of my mates is a doctor, a specialist in endocrine which is hormones, and he reckons all that stuff you guys take will make your balls shrink to the size of two frozen peas.
> 
> He charges over $200 a visit so he should know.
> 
> ...




thats retarded, natural testosterone only shuts down if your on the anabolics..

and your package would also look 'deficient' if your legs were twice the size they are currently... they are defficient proportionally thats all...


----------



## gouryella (4 June 2009)

There was a show on SBS last night called Food Investigators. They put a couple on the Paleolithic diet for a couple of weeks.

From memory, they both lost around 5-6kg. The woman lost ~4kg of fat and ~1kg of muscle, the man lost ~1.5kg of fat and ~4kg of muscle. I found it interesting that the male lost that much muscle in comparison to his wife.

No doubt the figures would have been a lot better in terms of the muscle/fat loss ratio if they had included resistance training, rather than relying solely on diet.


----------



## MrBurns (6 June 2009)

I got a stress fracture in my foot a few weeks ago, it was discovered by my physio ordering an MRI, *not my doctor*who ordered an xray (on my suggestion), then did no more when the OK result came in, he thought it must be a strain.

The physio also referred me to a rheumatologist, a really good, one who ordered a group of tests and guess what?, my Vitamin D count is less than half what it should be.
This probably accounts for the stress fracture and general muscle fatigue I've experienced lately. I'm now on a high dose of D and will start to improve almost immediately. If it wasn't for my physio being on the ball I done know were this would have ended,

Always get other opinions is all I can say.


----------



## kincella (6 June 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Fair comment gouryella,
> 
> Garpaldog got slack and arthritic due to normal ageing and all the rain we had,  and the vet prescribed some shark fin tablets and fish oil , and he's a new dog.
> 
> gg




well I was giving my puppy the Shark cartilage chews....little pieces of air dried shark cartilage....she loved them....until one day she nearly choked...
but I have to find an alternative...do not like tablets....maybe some powder to add to her food...she jumps a lot...and the idea is to save her bones while she is young...so she avoids the patella troubles as she gets older...

http://www.vetsallnatural.net/products.html


----------



## Julia (6 June 2009)

kincella said:


> well I was giving my puppy the Shark cartilage chews....little pieces of air dried shark cartilage....she loved them....until one day she nearly choked...
> but I have to find an alternative...do not like tablets....maybe some powder to add to her food...she jumps a lot...and the idea is to save her bones while she is young...so she avoids the patella troubles as she gets older...
> 
> http://www.vetsallnatural.net/products.html



I use this in my Shepherd.  She had a dodgy elbow joint as a puppy and developed early arthritis in it around a year ago.  Was giving her glucosamine with some success but she still limped if she did much running or jumping.
Was advised to change her to the combination product glucosamine with chondroitin and the limp has completely gone.  She can do whatever she likes and there's no problem.
What I'm using is the Wagner brand and I buy the powder.  So easy to just mix in with the food.  Buying the 1kg amount is reasonably cost effective.

Crushing tablets is a pain.
Really recommend it.


----------



## Tink (7 June 2009)

Good to hear you got a second opinion Mr Burns : )
Always the best thing to do..

Alot of people are low in Vitamin D and wouldnt know it..


----------



## MrBurns (7 June 2009)

Tink said:


> Good to hear you got a second opinion Mr Burns : )
> Always the best thing to do..
> 
> Alot of people are low in Vitamin D and wouldnt know it..




It can have serious side effects too, so good idea to have an annual check up including all the blood tests.


----------



## Tink (7 June 2009)

Yep - Osteoporosis being the main one..
I agree, everyone should have full blood work whether they are sick or not to check its all running accordingly 

So many that have medicals for work and find out things they never knew..


----------



## bowman (11 June 2009)

Just wondering if anyone has looked closely at the theory of 'food combining' with respect to efficient digestion and maximum nutrient extraction.

A google search turns up the usual mix of devotees and sceptics, but I haven't found much in the way of hard science to back up the claims.

A couple of studies seem to suggest that certain carbohydrates can limit the uptake of protiens.

http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/foodc/why_science_supports_food_combining_.html

Here is a typical food combining chart.

http://e-waterionizers.com/downloads/Food combining Chart.pdf

The basic principles are explained here.

http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/food-combining.htm

Is this real science or junk?

Informed replies only please.:


----------



## moneymajix (5 November 2009)

Brisbane author Donna Fisher believes that one of the biggest dangers to our health is quiet, it's all around us, and we take it for granted that it's enitirely safe.  I'm talking about electricity.  She's written two books about the issue.  The first was released last year called "Silent Fields, The Growing Cancer Cluster Story."  And Donna's about to launch the follow-on book "More Silent Fields - Cancer and the Dirty Electricity Plague - The Missing Link."




http://www.silentfields.com/

Why is the cancer rate so high?
Why is there such an alarming rise in diabetes?
Why has there been such a staggering increase in autism in just over two decades?
An ‘alternative’ cancer treatment using electromagnetic energy finally endorsed by Governments and available through national health schemes?​
After writing Silent Fields: The Growing Cancer Cluster Story: When Electricity Kills...which highlighted the dangers of electromagnetic radiation on human tissue, Donna Fisher was still haunted by the ever-increasing incidence of breast cancer. She continued in her quest to investigate more fully the darker side of electricity, which led her to the surprising discovery that there is a secretive and subtle underlying menace, in all probability one cause of the dramatic increase in cancers: ‘dirty electricity’.

Donna Fisher believes that dirty electricity threatens the wellbeing and health of everyone, a stance that is often met with initial disbelief. This book will leave you in no doubt that we do indeed have a plague of pandemic proportions on our hands. 

It was when a school teacher helped a qualified and highly distinguished doctor finally gain access into a USA school to investigate why there were so many cancers that results showed what international scientists have known for decades: dirty electricity is killing people and making some very sick. The results of this study, together with information from leading experts in this field indicating how computers could increase the risk of breast cancer so significantly, were too much to ignore and Donna was prompted to investigate why it is now suspected that dirty electricity is the major contributor to many illnesses and cancer. 

The electrical environment in our homes, workplaces, schools and hospitals has become toxic. It is imperative that we take personal responsibility to clean the electricity we live with every day. Pregnant women especially must take the necessary steps to protect their unborn child.

Donna Fisher explains that we are not hopeless and that there are constructive and simple things we can do in our homes right now to protect ourselves and our families. This book may be the most important book you ever read. It may even save your life.



"Very recently, new research is suggesting that nearly all the human plagues which emerged in the twentieth century, like common acute lymphoblastic leukemia in children, female breast cancer, malignant melanoma and asthma, can be tied to some facet of our use of electricity. There is an urgent need for governments and individuals to take steps to minimize community and personal EMF exposures." 2008

"...the 20th century epidemic of the so called diseases of civilization including cardiovascular disease, cancer and diabetes and suicide was caused by electrification not by lifestyle. A large proportion of these diseases may therefore be preventable.” 2009

2008 Samuel Milham, MD, MPH Medical epidemiologist in occupational epidemiology. 


,


----------



## Julia (5 November 2009)

Um, what's the difference between clean electricity and dirty electricity, and how do we turn the latter into the former?


----------



## jonojpsg (5 November 2009)

Julia said:


> Um, what's the difference between clean electricity and dirty electricity, and how do we turn the latter into the former?




Indeed Julia, my thoughts exactly!  And without having to buy her book!


----------



## moneymajix (5 November 2009)

Free info - try the library.

Also, the net. Can search for electromagnetic fields (EMF).
For example:

http://emf.mercola.com/sites/emf/ar...ps-to-reduce-electrosmog-in-your-bedroom.aspx


----------



## moXJO (5 November 2009)

I've heard of this before. In fact there are guys that will check to see where the safe spots are in the house for your bed. 

Wouldn't sparkies or linesmen be full of cancer?


----------



## moneymajix (5 November 2009)

Heard a Professor from Sydney on the radio today. 

I think he said:
People working in electricity industry have more cancers.





*Danger on the airwaves: Is the Wi-Fi revolution a health time bomb?*
It's on every high street and in every coffee shop and school. But experts have serious concerns about the effects of electronic smog from wireless networks linking our laptops and mobiles, reports Geoffrey Lean

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ifi-revolution-a-health-time-bomb-445732.html










.


----------



## awg (5 November 2009)

I've heard protection can be had by fashioning a cone shaped aluminium foil hat, and sticking it on your head, horn shaped antennie optional


----------



## Sunder (5 November 2009)

I would guess it has something to do with the current put through it, and whether it flows through a conductor shaped in a way to reinforce the EMF.

I remember reading that they wanted to conduct a study as to whether 240v countries have a lower cancer rate than 120v countries, as higher voltage means lower current, which generally means lower EMF, for same total wattage consumed. I regret I never saw the results of that study.


----------



## gooner (5 November 2009)

Julia said:


> Um, what's the difference between clean electricity and dirty electricity, and how do we turn the latter into the former?




It's just like cleaning anything. You use water. You take the live wire and put it in water, then you take the other wire and put that in the same water.

And, Voila, clean electricity

Darwin's theory at work


----------



## Julia (5 November 2009)

Trying to kill me off, huh Gooner?


----------



## moneymajix (6 November 2009)

*Nanoparticles 'can damage DNA'*

(UKPA) – 8 hours ago

Nanoparticles can damage DNA from a distance by affecting biological signals, scientists have shown.

Their influence is not stopped by a protective wall of cells, a study revealed.

The findings have both good and bad implications, experts believe. They raise questions about the safety of man-made particles, but also point the way to new avenues for medical treatment.

Nanoparticles are tiny fragments of material at scales of a millionth of a millimetre, or a thousand times smaller than the width of a human hair.

They are already used in cosmetics, sunscreens, electronics, manufacturing, environmental processes and medicine. Future applications could include novel drug delivery systems and treatments that target cancer. But there are safety concerns, since small particles can display unexpected properties not seen in the same materials at larger scales.

The University of Bristol scientists carried out a study in which they showed that even without making contact, metal nanoparticles can damage DNA.

Although the experiment did not accurately mirror conditions in the human body, it illustrated an indirect mechanism by which nanoparticles can exert biological effects. The scientists grew a tumour "wall" about three cells thick and placed cobalt-chromium nanoparticles and human cells on either side of the barrier.

They found that the cells behind the biological wall suffered DNA damage just as if they had been directly in contact with the nanoparticles. Although the particles could not pass through the wall, they caused the barrier cells to generate harmful signalling molecules that inflicted the damage. The findings were published online in the journal Nature Nanotechnology.

Lead author Gevdeep Bhabra said: "Even though this work was done in the laboratory, our results suggest the existence of a mechanism by which biological effects can be signalled through a cellular barrier, thus it gives us insights into how barriers in the body such as the skin, the placenta and the blood-brain barrier, might work."

The research suggested that the indirect as well as direct health effects of nanoparticles should be taken into account when evaluating their safety, said the scientists. But they stressed that the experiment did not model conditions seen in the human body.

Copyright  © 2009 The Press Association. All rights reserved. 





http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hMgHkV22gGBCaWj7qdKcCAQY-sPA


----------



## moneymajix (16 November 2009)

Today's 60-year-olds may face more health problems than previous generations despite a lifetime of free healthcare


*Health timebomb hits baby boomers: Over-60s suffer more illnesses caused by bad diet and lack of exercise *

Fiona Macrae
Daily Mail
Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:12 EST 


They were the first to enjoy free health care, and had the time of their lives in the Swinging Sixties. 

But the post-war 'baby boomers' are now paying the price. 

Today's 60-year-olds are the first modern generation to be less healthy than their immediate predecessors. 

Despite improvements in medicine and standards of living, they are more likely to be blighted by problems from aching knees and creaking hips to diabetes, asthma and strokes. 

Even simple tasks such as getting in and out of bed or climbing ten steps without a rest prove a challenge. 

And with fast food, lack of exercise and a growing reliance on computers and other technology, the future could be even bleaker. 

Researcher Teresa Seeman said: 'The baby boomers, whatever health benefits they've enjoyed up until now, may not enjoy such a rosy old age.' 



More at

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-illnesses-caused-bad-diet-lack-exercise.html


----------



## Gamblor (16 November 2009)

helicart said:


> Just keep consuming lots of fatty food and booze GG.
> 
> If prostate cancer or an MI doesn't take you out early, at least the circulation to your reproductive kit will be so compromised, you'll be shooting so many blanks you won't be able to perpetuate your values on Planet Earth.  :rippergun





LOL


----------



## Gamblor (16 November 2009)

moneymajix said:


> *Nanoparticles 'can damage DNA'*
> 
> (UKPA) – 8 hours ago
> 
> ...




This is really interesting. The potential new forms of drug delivery have a few of my old professors giggling like school girls.


----------



## Naked shorts (27 November 2009)

How important is stretching to building muscle mass?


----------



## gav (28 November 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> How important is stretching to building muscle mass?




Stretching aids flexibility (which also reduces chance of injury), and also aids recovery, muscle growth, and increases circulation.  

Myofascial stretching is extremely popular method amongst bodybuilders and powerlifters (also known as myofascial release, fascia strecthing).

Fascia is the soft tissue component of the connective tissue that provides support and protection for most structures within the human body, including muscle. The fascia around muscle is extremely tough and becomes tight when blood and oxygen is pumped to the muscle; which in turn constricts the muscle (the pumped/tight feeling you get in your biceps after doing bicep curls).  Because fascia is so tough, it doesn't allow the muscle much room to expand. It is like stuffing a large pillow into a small pillowcase. The connective tissue around your muscles is constricting the muscles within.

Technically, you are stretching your fascia slightly everytime you train (the pump/tightening feeling whn you train).  However, specifically targeting the fascia through myofascial release gives the muscle more room to expand.  Using the pillowcase example from above: imagine you can expand the size of the pillowcase by stretching it.  This gives the pillow within more room and allow it to expand to fill that new space.

There are different ways to stretch the fascia.  Personally I find Direct Myofascial Release the best for me.  I do this using a foam roller I bought off a physio website (cost me about $35 plus postage).  Using a foam roller is great because it is cheap and allows you to stretch by yourself (no need to rely on someone else, or pay for expensive masseur or physio treatments). 

Obviously you will need to have your diet and training sorted too.

Hope this helps.


----------



## nomore4s (28 November 2009)

gav said:


> I do this using a foam roller I bought off a physio website (cost me about $35 plus postage).




You could have just brought a pool noodle. It's what a lot of athletes use.


----------



## gav (28 November 2009)

nomore4s said:


> You could have just brought a pool noodle. It's what a lot of athletes use.




Yeah I used a pool noodle at first, but I needed something thicker and harder.


----------



## Naked shorts (28 November 2009)

gav said:


> I do this using a foam roller I bought off a physio website (cost me about $35 plus postage).  Using a foam roller is great because it is cheap and allows you to stretch by yourself (no need to rely on someone else, or pay for expensive masseur or physio treatments).




Thanks gav, can you give me a link to this product?


----------



## Largesse (28 November 2009)

gav said:
			
		

> Yeah I used a pool noodle at first, but I needed something thicker and harder.


----------



## Naked shorts (28 November 2009)

Largesse said:


> that's what she said....




Largesse wins!


----------



## gav (28 November 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Largesse wins!




Oh dear, I should really choose my words better!


----------



## Naked shorts (30 November 2009)

So what is optimum for muscle growth? stretching before exercise, straight after exercise or much later after exercise?


----------



## white_goodman (30 November 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> So what is optimum for muscle growth? stretching before exercise, straight after exercise or much later after exercise?




before ,during and after.... funny thing is if you stretch 'too' much before and during you can reduce the explosiveness and thus the strength of the muscle your trying to work


----------



## moneymajix (21 December 2009)

*Re: Brain Food*

*Omega-3 Deficiencies Linked to Mental Disorders *


Press TV
Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:29 EST 


:fish:


Deficiencies in omega-3 fatty acids may place individuals at an increased risk of developing mental disorders, a new study finds. 

Omega-3 fatty acids are essential fatty acids that cannot be produced by the body and are supplied from food intake. Oily fish like salmon, walnuts and ground flax seeds are rich sources of these fatty acids. 

While the cardioprotective benefits of these fats had long been recognized, the new study, however, is the first to report their benefits to brain health. 

According to the study published in Behavioral Neuroscience, two omega-3 fatty acids known as docosahexaenoic acid and eicosapentaenoic acid play a critical role in maintaining the health of the nervous system. 

Low omega-3 levels, hence, are linked to information-processing problems commonly found in mental disorders such as schizophrenia, and bipolar, obsessive-compulsive and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorders. 

Scientists concluded that omega-3 supplements not only have mood-stabilizing and antidepressant properties but also play an important role in brain development, encouraging the growth of neurons that control impulsive behavior. 


More at:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=114228&sectionid=3510210


:fish:


----------



## gav (24 June 2010)

An informative article about muscle and weight training appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald today.  Although I doubt many people would have noticed, with the Rudd/Gillard fiasco...



> *No such thing as free muscles*
> 
> There are multitudes of myths about muscle, especially where athletes are concerned. So here's some myth-busting.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/fitness/no-such-thing-as-free-muscles-20100624-z0oo.html


----------



## motorway (15 October 2010)

Good site on Vitamin D


http://www.grassrootshealth.net/

This imo is an amazing cancer model (link from the site )

http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=16941



Motorway


----------



## motorway (16 October 2010)

http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=18717

imo Another must see

look at the Melanoma Vs Sunscreen use slides

Motorway


----------



## motorway (18 October 2010)

WOW


http://www.metamedicine.nl/when-should-you-go-out-in-the-sun



Disclaimer:  I have family members who have had melanoma
but fortunately caught early enough...

Motorway


----------



## Whiskers (18 October 2010)

motorway said:


> WOW
> 
> 
> http://www.metamedicine.nl/when-should-you-go-out-in-the-sun
> ...




I've had Squamous cell carcinoma as well as a stage 3 Melonomia... so it seems I had too much sun per se according to that article... which sounds right as I worked outdoors all my younger life.

But ironically, now I spend little time in the sun, mainly apparently at the wrong time (acording to that research), in the early morning or late afternoon.


----------



## motorway (20 October 2010)

Whiskers said:


> I've had Squamous cell carcinoma as well as a stage 3 Melonomia... so it seems I had too much sun per se according to that article... which sounds right as I worked outdoors all my younger life.
> 
> But ironically, now I spend little time in the sun, mainly apparently at the wrong time (acording to that research), in the early morning or late afternoon.




People I know who have/ had Skin cancers
Tend to stay out of the Sun almost totally

As people get older, if they are unwell ,-- same..

long time in Hospital etc

When you look at some of the research on Vitamin D status

With almost you name it

Cancer , Influenza , HIV etc etc

That could prove deadly... That is plunging Vitamin D levels
Just when they are needed most..


Vitamin D and Prevention of Chronic Diseases

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq1t9WqOD-0

Motorway


----------



## motorway (13 November 2010)

Another good site

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/

From the Quote Page

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitamin-d-quotes.shtml

Vitamin D Quotes


> Humans make thousands of units of vitamin D within minutes of whole body exposure to sunlight. From what we know of nature, it is unlikely such a system evolved by chance.
> ~ Dr. John Cannell, Executive Director, Vitamin D Council.
> 
> If this theory is true, the path towards effective prevention ”” and perhaps a treatment effect if adequate physiological doses of vitamin D are given ”” is so simple, so safe, so inexpensive, so readily available and so easy, that it defies imagination.
> ...


----------



## CanOz (31 December 2013)

My hats off to this couple....

Raw-food runners wrap up 15,000km marathon trip around Australia


----------



## dead trader (31 December 2013)

I thought I'd share a bit about my own health story.

This might get a bit long... 

Diagnosed with schizophrenia at 13, hospitalised at Redbank (Westmead Children's Hospital) for something like 4 months.

Two years later, another 6 week or so stay at Redbank, and this time I am kept under a closer watch and they say I have bipolar instead.

Struggled with self harm and suicidal thoughts, and have attempted to OD more than a few times...

I have been through a lot and wouldn't be OK today if it wasn't for my family... Along the way I stumbled onto a website owned by a Dr Lawrence Wilson. Started reading one article a day, then I realised I wanted to do a nutritional balancing program. I won't post the link here... you can find it on Google easily enough.

So now I take 8 supplements a day, eat a much cleaner diet, and I am a changed person. I am no longer severely depressed, no wild mood swings, and feeling more content and more stable. I started my nutritional balancing program this time last year, one year later my doctor has reduced my meds by a third. And I'm in a better place mentally than ever. Also lost a little bit of weight, and fitness has improved.

I just wanted to share my experience just in case there are people on this website that know people with a mental illness or have one themselves... 

A NB program isn't the holy grail, but through my own experience, I can say it's damn close.


----------



## burglar (31 December 2013)

greasy_pancakes said:


> I thought I'd share a bit about my own health story ...



Hi greasy,
Thank you for sharing!


----------



## Calliope (31 December 2013)

Is the world ready for a more realistic Pudgy Barbie?


----------



## McLovin (1 January 2014)

Calliope said:


> Is the world ready for a more realistic Pudgy Barbie?
> 
> View attachment 56077




I wonder if the fatties who complained about Barbie having an unhealthy body image when she was super skinny will say the same now she's obese.


----------



## sydboy007 (1 January 2014)

Recent research shows that the bacteria in your gut can change within 24 hours based on your diet.  So if you change from a plant based to meat based diet there will be more bacteria that help with the break down of animal protein.

Research is also showing guy bacteria can affect your mood as well.  Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium have been shown to increase the production of GABA which can cause anxiety or depression when your levels are low.  GABA can also help with getting a restful sleep.

A combination of walking and eating a decent balance of the main foods, along with the odd treat, is probably the best way forward for those who just want to enjoy life and see their knees when standing.

A small level of weight training as you get older can also be good.  Studies have shown it helps to reduce the amount of bone density loss, especially for the over 60s.


----------



## sydboy007 (1 January 2014)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenk...-boss-the-surprising-science-of-self-control/

quite an interesting article.  some of the main points.  You are what we eat might have to change to We are what we eat

_In recent years, scientists have identified over 100,000 viral elements in your genome, compared to the 20,000 human protein coding genes. Eight to nine percent of our DNA belongs to them and not us. Or, as science writer Carl Zimmer explains: “You’re six times more virus than human.”_

_For example, we now suspect that it is viral DNA that causes schizophrenia. The popular press dubbed this idea the “insanity virus” and debate is still ongoing, but the idea here, as Discover magazine recently explained, is that “the insanity virus…may challenge our basic views of human evolution, blurring the lines between “us” and “them,” between pathogen and host.

In a well-regarded study, researchers at UCLA found that women who consumed probiotics had significantly altered brain function. Further research has shown that the connections between different brain regions differ depending on which species of bacteria dominate gut flora._


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (1 January 2014)

Health and Fitness is for muppets and a means of transferring money from the Greedy to the Even-More-Greedy Health and Fitness industry.

We are a rich country and that is why we are unfit.

gg


----------



## Tisme (16 November 2015)

The persistent active wear:


----------



## Tisme (17 June 2016)

i think this is Hydropark in Kiev

[video]https://www.youtube.com/[/video]


----------



## Tisme (23 September 2018)

This could be you!


----------



## dutchie (11 May 2020)

Christian On Keto Diet Asks Lord To Provide Daily Fats, Proteins
May 8th, 2019

_Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your nutrients,
your ketosis come,
your wheats be gone,
from my cupboard as well as my stomach.
Give us this day our daily fats and proteins.
Forgive us our excess carbs as we forgive those who are on low-fat diets.
Lead us not into temptation to scarf down a bunch of Cheez-Its.
For the ketosis, the protein, and the disgusting gluten-free products are yours,
now and forever. Amino acids.
_
https://babylonbee.com/news/christi...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I'm on the keto diet. Awesome change to prayer.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 December 2020)

My weight has been creeping up slowly  for 15 years. My natural weight is 82kgs but I measured myself at 101kgs at the end of September during lockdown. I had a bit of a pot and was officially obese.

So starting on October 4th I went on a diet from a book, healthy eating, no shakes.

I am proud to say I measured myself today and I have lost 15kgs and weigh 85.9kgs. This is despite days off such as Cup Day, Grand Final Day and having a Parma and pints on another day.

The secret is simple.
Don't eat late, let your body lose weight overnight  Cut calorie intake to 800-1000 a day, try to stay away from chips, pasta, rice, or much bread etc.  Get some good recipes (I used the Fast 800 diet).
Eat, steak, fish, chicken, lamb, lentils, most vegetables. Pretty much the way Aussies used to eat before modern food except with modern flavours and less fat.

I have realised how much servings have increased over the years and how much junk food is a round. A big wake up call for me.

Its taken a bit over 2 months to turn it around so you can do. My advantage is my wife doing the cooking. It is a big advantage I must admit. Lockdown helped also as harder to socialise.


----------



## Ferret (5 December 2020)

Good for you, Knobby!  15kg in two months is huge.  

I guess 2nd breakfast is now a thing of the past!


----------



## ghoool (6 December 2020)

Another walk this morning, followed by another liquid vitamin shot ie. the green smothie.

Once again I picked some dandelion from the yard, and also some parsley from the garden.


----------



## basilio (6 December 2020)

Congratulations Knobby. I also used the Fast 800 diet and  particular the book with the outstanding recipes .  
Great value.

This has also helped.









						Neuroscience Says Doing This 1 Thing Makes You Just as Happy as Eating 2,000 Chocolate Bars
					

It also gives you the same neurological boost as receiving $25,000.




					getpocket.com


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2020)

basilio said:


> This has also helped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That probably relates back, to why people who are depressed and generally unhappy tend to be overweight, comfort food.


----------



## grah33 (10 December 2020)

turn some fat into muscle with some of the main compound exercises (pushups, pull , squat)


----------



## ghoool (12 December 2020)

Sports, exercise, morning jogging, healthy lifestyle - what do you think of this?
Someone likes it, someone does not, and someone generally refers to this issue indifferently. But, be that as it may, you should know that there are special advantages on the side of those who go in for sports. A sedentary lifestyle is not a good start. How sorry I am for the specialists of this service aplusessay.com/finance-assignment-help.html, who work sitting all day.


----------



## macca (13 December 2020)

The best thing I have done healthwise was to buy an elliptical trainer, cost me $20 on Gumtree.

I now have no excuses to avoid exercise, like too hot, too cold, raining etc

A friend has one in the rumpus room, he watches one program there each night and when the ads are on he uses the trainer slowly.

When the program finishes he does a quick 5 minutes and he is done.

Not very scientific but a lot better than nothing


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 December 2020)

macca said:


> Not very scientific but a lot better than nothing



A key point - even if it's imperfect, any exercise is better than no exercise.

Same goes for someone who just goes for an hour walk each day. It won't make them an athlete but it sure beats doing nothing.


----------



## basilio (8 January 2021)

Now if you stay healthy and active you can 'enjoy' these types of problems well into your eighties. 









						Now that I am 86, have I lost the ability to orgasm for ever?
					

I have always enjoyed a good sex life – until last week, when I found that I couldn’t reach a climax. Is this to be expected because of my age?




					www.theguardian.com
				




I had to read the comments from the disbelievers and frankly skeptical. This took the cake. 


TheThirdMan
6 Jan 2021 8:35

88
When my Grandad was 96 and my Nanna 94 they went along to their doctor
to whom they confided that their lovemaking was no longer as enjoyable as it had been.
The bemused doctor asked 'When did you first notice this'
To which my Nanna replied, 'Twice last night and again this morning'


----------



## noirua (14 January 2022)

Do look after your feet.  In fact you can inspect your feet and they will tell you what your overall health is. If only they could speak.




__





						What can your feet tell you about your health?
					





					www.msn.com
				




I have noticed over the years the terrible state some peoples feet are in. Some people in fact look perfectly normal and healthy but their feet say different. So before you accept a person as healthy make them take their shoes and socks off first.  The difference from one person to another can be amazing.  Forget about eyes and finger prints just check feet instead.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 February 2022)

Some good news for people who want to improve muscle tone but don't want to spend all day doing it.

3 seconds might be enough.









						No time for a strength workout? New research shows three seconds may be all you need
					

Guilty of saying you have no time to exercise? A new study suggests that you mightn't need to spend hours – or even minutes – in the weight room to get results.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## noirua (1 April 2022)

New Sign of a Stroke -------- Stick out Your Tongue
NOTE: Another 'sign' of a stroke is this: Ask the person to 'stick' out his tongue. If the tongue is 'crooked', if it goes to one side or the other that is also an indication of a stroke.


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## finicky (16 June 2022)

Frankly I do not understand the description of the study but it comes from South Aus Uni and sources a large cohort. A Vit D supp seems a good and easy call from a number of other sources I've read. Taking your shirt off in high sun for say 15 minutes is something less convenient to consider but might have benefits additional to Vit D production.

*Vitamin D Deficiency and Dementia

Summary: *_Researchers found an association between low vitamin D levels and reduced brain volume. Lower vitamin D was also linked to an increased risk of stroke and dementia. Up to 17% of dementia cases could be prevented by increasing vitamin D._

*Source: *_University of South Australia_








						Vitamin D Deficiency Leads to Dementia - Neuroscience News
					

Researchers found an association between low vitamin D levels and reduced brain volume. Lower vitamin D was also linked to an increased risk of stroke and dementia. Up to 17% of dementia cases could be prevented by increasing vitamin D.




					neurosciencenews.com


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## Knobby22 (16 June 2022)

finicky said:


> Frankly I do not understand the description of the study but it comes from South Aus Uni and sources a large cohort. A Vit D supp seems a good and easy call from a number of other sources I've read. Taking your shirt off in high sun for say 15 minutes is something less convenient to consider but might have benefits additional to Vit D production.
> 
> *Vitamin D Deficiency and Dementia
> 
> ...



I have booked a holiday in Cairnes late July. Give my body a much needed boost living in Melbourne.
I was told vitamin D also good for bones. Probably the only vitamin worth taking supplements for if you eat healthily but have a desk job.


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## finicky (16 June 2022)

@Knobby22 sounds good. I am a fan of short bursts of sunshine but am erratic and slack about getting it.
I have read that Vit D 'receptors' are present throughout the tissues of the body which suggests important functions. Supposedly important in immune function, thus had some recommending it during Covid. I personally take largish dosages daily fwiw.


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## noirua (28 October 2022)

American Pickers' Frank's conservatorship says he was 'unemployed' before stroke
					

AMERICAN Pickers star Frank Fritz’s conservatorship reveals the star was “unemployed” before his stroke despite spinoff talks.  Frank, 59, was hospitalized for a stroke on July 14 and has been…




					www.the-sun.com
				




Health is fine but a sudden series of events can make life turn turtle. In this case, Frank Fritz went from being a star in a show out of Iowa travelling around America to a deep hole health-wise.


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