# First trading system



## havaiana (27 June 2009)

Hi

I've only been studying forex for 2 weeks now. I've got alot of info from this forum and thought i would make my first post. i started paper trading with a few printouts of systems this week and a screen full of indicators. Below is the first draft of my first trading plan with the indicators and techniques i have found most useful so far:

*15 Minute Chart System

Indicators*

5 EMA
10 EMA
Stochastics 10, 3, 3
*
Techniques*

Trend:
do not trade against the simple trend, check 4h and 1h chart to get general trend
Stochastics:
Do not buy sell when overbought >80 or oversold < 20
When overbought/sold and starts to hook around reversal, look for IB’s to support
Inside bars (IB‘s):
when bar fits inside the one to the left of it and the next bar supports it
EMA:
when 5 crosses 10 may indicate a new trend
Stop loss:
most recent swing or equal with take profit
Take profit:
equal with stop loss or manually keep moving up stop loss bar within 10pips of price
Entry/Exit Price:
try to exit at 50 or 00 prices, try to enter at non 50 00 prices?
Candle pattern:
use long wicked candle patterns at top or bottom of trend, especially if colour change
Breakouts:
look for breakouts of support and resistance lines
Shoulder:	shoulder patterns etc for general trends
*
Other notes to self*

Maybe trying to trade on reversals too much, trade with general trend more, against it less
Need to create spreadsheet to track
Work out money management system
Look into which pairs suit my time frame
Investigate losses and try to find if there was a mistake
Try also with 5m chart, always start with 15m
If any techniques disagree don’t trade, need 3+ techniques to agree to trade


It still very rough and obviously needs alot of work, you can only learn so much in 2 weeks! I plan on simplifing this plan a bit and put in some more solid rules after next week when i get a better idea of which of the techniques are working for me and which aren't. Comments/suggestions will appreciated...


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## beamstas (27 June 2009)

Have you done any backtesting at all?
Brad


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## havaiana (27 June 2009)

beamstas said:


> Have you done any backtesting at all?
> Brad




No, looking into that right now actually because i can't paper trade on the weekend, any programs you can recommend?


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## beamstas (27 June 2009)

havaiana said:


> No, looking into that right now actually because i can't paper trade on the weekend, any programs you can recommend?




Amibroker
Metastock


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## Trembling Hand (27 June 2009)

havaiana said:


> Maybe trying to trade on reversals too much, trade with general trend more, against it less...




Then your signals are already in conflict with your thinking. All of these techniques are top/bottom picking techniques, though poor ones. 

Before you start designing a system you need to first *discover* how the market you have chosen moves. *Then* find a way to exploit what you find. Picking trading "wisdom's" (MA crosses ) out of the blue and throwing them at a market is a classic F up most starters waste time on.

And most stay with their time wasting approach. Do yourself a favour and learn anatomy 101 before you move onto surgery techniques.


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## beamstas (27 June 2009)

Havaiana, Have a read of what Howard Has to say re: MA Crosses
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15817

Specifically


> The conclusion I draw is that the traditional thoughts on using moving average crossovers as filters for trading systems have it backwards.




Cheers
Brad


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## havaiana (27 June 2009)

thanks for responses guys

looks like i need to make this my next step "Look into which pairs suit my time frame" before i do anything else. I work fulltime so will mostly be trading between 8pm -12am (Melbourne), any suggestions on which pairs i should look at for these times?

re: MA crosses, the system i played with used MA crosses when RSI > 50 (long trades) and stochastics were increasing but not in overbought territory. The system seemed to predict trends pretty well (in my small sample using it). The reason i stopped using it was because i found the trend had usually already well and truly changed by the time these 3 were in agreement and it wasn't allowing me to enter early enough


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## beamstas (27 June 2009)

Try not to use many indicators

Use as much price & volume as you want.

1 indicator (moving average, stochastic, rsi, whatever) will be o.k for designing a system

2 you are getting too many

3+ and you are either curve fitting or being way too slow.

More indicators doesn't equal more "pure" entries not subject to noise. Less is better.


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## Mr J (28 June 2009)

> All of these techniques are top/bottom picking techniques, though poor ones.




Not necessarily. If he's trading with the trend, they will show the swing highs and lows. The main problem is that these are lagging indicators, and that they will often have him entering on noise. 



> when 5 crosses 10 may indicate a new trend




The 5 and 10 will cross a lot, and are very fast. It will produce a lot of noise, leading to getting stopped out a lot. I think it will also cause you to close good trades far too early.



> equal with stop loss or manually keep moving up stop loss bar within 10pips of price




If you're trading trends, the stop should be just beyond the last swing point.



> The system seemed to predict trends pretty well (in my small sample using it). The reason i stopped using it was because i found the trend had usually already well and truly changed by the time these 3 were in agreement and it wasn't allowing me to enter early enough




Lagging indicators always predict trends well - in hindsight. It's why most people should probably just dump them altogether. They're a distraction, and removing them allows the trader to focus on price action.



> More indicators doesn't equal more "pure" entries not subject to noise. Less is better.




Agree with this.

I've added a paint bar recently, but only see I can see at half a glance how any particular market is moving. It just makes the chart cleaner, rather than serving any trading purpose.


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## tech/a (28 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Then your signals are already in conflict with your thinking. All of these techniques are top/bottom picking techniques, though poor ones.
> 
> Before you start designing a system you need to first *discover* how the market you have chosen moves. *Then* find a way to exploit what you find. Picking trading "wisdom's" (MA crosses ) out of the blue and throwing them at a market is a classic F up most starters waste time on.
> 
> And most stay with their time wasting approach. Do yourself a favour and learn anatomy 101 before you move onto surgery techniques.




Well there you go.
The only piece of real practical advice passes like an un wanted birthday present---still wrapped---note even looked at.



> looks like i need to make this my next step "Look into which pairs suit my time frame" before i do anything else. I work fulltime so will mostly be trading between 8pm -12am (Melbourne), any suggestions on which pairs i should look at for these times?
> 
> re: MA crosses, the system i played with used MA crosses when RSI > 50 (long trades) and stochastics were increasing but not in overbought territory. The system seemed to predict trends pretty well (in my small sample using it). The reason i stopped using it was because i found the trend had usually already well and truly changed by the time these 3 were in agreement and it wasn't allowing me to enter early enough


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## tech/a (28 June 2009)

> looks like I need to make this my next step




Try stepping a long way sideways.

http://www.moneyshow.com/video/video.asp?wid=4044&t=3&scode=014803


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## It's Snake Pliskin (28 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> Not necessarily. If he's trading with the trend, they will show the swing highs and lows. The main problem is that these are lagging indicators, and that they will often have him entering on noise.
> 
> Lagging indicators always predict trends well - in hindsight. It's why most people should probably just dump them altogether. They're a distraction, and removing them allows the trader to focus on price action.




The great supposition of the amateur is to quickly discard a lagging indicator even with or without all of the information. 

JUmping from the school of oscillating indicators to "only price action" mantra seems to be a trend.  

So it could be said entering into a trade based solely on an oscillating indicator may find noise. 

It could also be said entering a trade based solely on price action may find you being sucked into a false move. 

The true expert will not discard anything because they will know why. TH's post is a good one. Yes Tech I saw it but you beat me.


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## havaiana (28 June 2009)

tech/a said:


> Well there you go.
> The only piece of real practical advice passes like an un wanted birthday present---still wrapped---note even looked at.




i did look at it, i looked back at alot of TH's previous posts after his response, he elaborates a little bit more here...



Trembling Hand said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by roland
> quite a dumbo response for a valid question, thanks - I used to respect your posts
> 
> ...




I'm not looking at a one size fits all system to trade with, but figured testing a couple of systems was a way to jump straight in and get some hours in without trading blindly. I've read up about all the basics, but from my experience i learn alot better from jumping in and doing things. I think generally it's better to spend 4 hours watching and trading the market than reading about it.

I'm going to trash my original plan now and take a different approach. I'm going to pick one currency pair and trade for the week without any indicators just the candle bar chart. after a week of that i will work out my trouble points and experiment with a couple of indicators to see if they can help.


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## havaiana (28 June 2009)

Also just to clarify, i'm not completely disregarding the study aspect, i'm reading Steve Nison's candlestick material to help me with this aspect specifically. Anyone read any of his work, is he a good place to start for candlestick patterns?


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## Trembling Hand (28 June 2009)

havaiana you actually haven't got what I'm saying at all.

In your chosen instrument whats the average 15 min range? Daily range? Weekly range? Whats the probability of hitting RI/S1, R2/S2 etc? Whats are the volatile times? Does you chosen instrument have correlations, inverse correlations to other markets? Are there patterns around 50% levels? When does the volume come into your market? When and why does it leave? whats the chance of having an up day after 3 down days? 

And just LOFinL at your candle stick book. That is EXACTLY what I am talking about in my first post that you have ar$e about, infact JUST ABOUT EVERYONE, does. taking some "gurus" word out of a book and applying to some random market in a diff time frame, in a diff time, blah blah blah, Shame you didn't get this far,



Trembling Hand said:


> Looking for traditional TA patterns in your instrument is completely the wrong way to go IMO. Whoever said they even occur often enough in your instrument and on your time frame?
> 
> Of course you use Support/Resistance/Higher Highs/Lower Lows and all the basics but I reckon you are better off just looking at your market and finding "its" patterns. .
> 
> Thats what always gets me about TA. People use patterns that they don't even know their *probabilities in the market they apply them to*.


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## Mr J (28 June 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> The great supposition of the amateur is to quickly discard a lagging indicator even with or without all of the information.
> 
> JUmping from the school of oscillating indicators to "only price action" mantra seems to be a trend.
> 
> ...




Looks like you forgot that indicators are based off of price action :. The true expect will only use what he needs and no more. If the indicators are based on price action and one can read price action well, then there's no need for indicators.



> I'm going to pick one currency pair and trade for the week without any indicators just the candle bar chart




You might want to just watch it. Perhaps take note of what situations interest you and see how they develop.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (28 June 2009)

> Looks like you forgot that indicators are based off of price action :. The true expect will only use what he needs and no more. If the indicators are based on price action and one can read price action well, then there's no need for indicators.



A somewhat smaller supposition that I know nothing of price action. And yes all derivations of price computated constitute the basis of an oscilating indicator. 

A true expert will know why. The various tools will be used when and where required. Watching bar by bar only, has its limitations.  

Your final sentence highlights the ignorance of and disregard to various strategies and tactics that price action (bar by bar watching) alone will not assist you with at times.


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## Cartman (28 June 2009)

havaiana said:


> I'm going to trash my original plan now and take a different approach.




actually i wouldnt do that Hav, ---- 

u came up with a blue print --- if its not quite right, how do u know till u trade it (demo trade it please !!   )

TH's comments are well meant and he is trying to save u some time and grief ---- he is right and should be listened to, but considering u r 2 weeks into your "study", i think u r way ahead of most starting punters ----- so well done for that !

fwiw --- if u r gona trade forex ----- have a look at the weekly/daily highs and lows (and closes!!) to get the general trend/feel of the market --------- then look at the major pivot points to see who is winning the "war" at those levels  etc etc ---- then see if your trading blueprint "works" at those points --  if not, adjust your plan from there  

once u get a feel for "your" market u will see the importance of position sizing and MM for longevity---- good luck with it.


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## Trembling Hand (28 June 2009)

right on cue dr brett has an article for ya,

http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2009/06/gaining-feel-for-markets-by-immersion.html


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## Cartman (28 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> right on cue dr brett has an article for ya,
> 
> http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2009/06/gaining-feel-for-markets-by-immersion.html





no fool that Brett !!    ----- important price levels culminated with potential past market patterns ---------   does the small punter have anything better to base a trading plan on ?? ----  luck perhaps  !!

Frank D is on to this in a mechanical way (and i suspect Frank uses quite a bit of discretion at times   ) ----------- 

a discretional attack may be more profitable in the short term, but 99.5% of punters dont have the discipline to implement that for any length of time ---- 

discipline !!!! ----- my nemesis !!!! lol ----


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## Mr J (28 June 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> A somewhat smaller supposition that I know nothing of price action. And yes all derivations of price computated constitute the basis of an oscilating indicator.
> 
> A true expert will know why. The various tools will be used when and where required. Watching bar by bar only, has its limitations.
> 
> Your final sentence highlights the ignorance of and disregard to various strategies and tactics that price action (bar by bar watching) alone will not assist you with at times.




I am not an expert, let alone a true expert, so perhaps I'm not able to think of the reasons myself. I see indicators as no more than a visual aid for representing what can already be found on a chart. Since you know what a true expert would know, would you care to step off your high horse and at least provide some reasoning?


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## MRC & Co (28 June 2009)

Snake,

I am interested in hearing the general methods you use as I have never seen your ideas..........

I know you don't want to share details, this is why I have stated, general methods.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (29 June 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Snake,
> 
> I am interested in hearing the general methods you use as I have never seen your ideas..........
> 
> I know you don't want to share details, this is why I have stated, general methods.




Hi MRC,

I'll disclaim away that I am no expert. 
Generally divergence set ups, exhaustion, patterns, trendlines. Very simple stuff. Though there is more to use and consider, it depends. End of day trading is not too exciting. 
My call on LEI that you queried me on before was based off a very simple strategy. Price action confirmed the buy signal.
Cheers..


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## Mr J (29 June 2009)

> Generally divergence set ups, exhaustion, patterns, trendlines




I'm still waiting to hear what indicators show that the chart (i.e. price action) does not.


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## nomore4s (29 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> I'm still waiting to hear what indicators show that the chart (i.e. price action) does not.




Divergence, for starters.

And what about FrankD and his levels? Very powerful indicators.

Alot of good traders use indicators at some point or for certain setups.


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## mazzatelli1000 (29 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> I'm still waiting to hear what indicators show that the chart (i.e. price action) does not.




Statistical volatility
Pivot Points


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## Mr J (29 June 2009)

I didn't say indicators weren't useful - they are, but as visual aids. Divergence is shown on a chart. It may not be immediately obvious, but it is there. It's the same information, just shown a different way. Anything shown on an indicator is also shown on the chart, it's just a matter of whether the trader can spot it on the chart or with the indicator.


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## havaiana (30 June 2009)

Just a quick update, made 6 trades tonight, 5 were losses! At least i'm consistent. Working really late at the moment due to end financial year, so will go into a bit more detail in a couple of days so the other newbies can learn from my mistakes.

Tomorrow night i'm going to do the exact opposite of what i did tonight. How can i go wrong??


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## nomore4s (30 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> Looks like you forgot that indicators are based off of price action :. The true expect will only use what he needs and no more. If the indicators are based on price action and one can read price action well, then there's no need for indicators.




A true expert will understand what works and what doesn't and why it works or why it doesnt before discounting methods. Also 1 expert might find indicators useless for his/her timeframe, method & instrument but another could find certain indicators extremely useful. I wouldn't be disgarding a tool without understanding it first, considering the level the OP is at.



Mr J said:


> I didn't say indicators weren't useful - they are, but as visual aids. Divergence is shown on a chart. It may not be immediately obvious, but it is there. It's the same information, just shown a different way. Anything shown on an indicator is also shown on the chart, it's just a matter of whether the trader can spot it on the chart or with the indicator.




So you admit that indicators are useful but shouldn't be used even if they help the trader read the price action with more ease? Which is the idea behind an indicator, isn't it?

The OP has stated he is a beginner, so wouldn't he be better served by learning about indicators - how they are constructed, what they are telling the trader and whether they can then be useful to the timeframe and method of trading he wants to use? Instead of just disregarding them all together because "it's all in the price action". Doing this may also help the OP understand what the price action is actually saying and how best to take advantage of it.


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## Mr J (30 June 2009)

> A true expert will understand




A number of you have been stating this rubbish. It has nothing to do with it.



> before discounting methods




I don't. Indicators aren't a method, they're a tool that some use to carry out that method.



> So you admit that indicators are useful but shouldn't be used even if they help the trader read the price action with more ease? Which is the idea behind an indicator, isn't it?




They're useful if you can't readily see that info on a chart, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to see it on the chart. The more you focus on a chart, the more information jumps out at you. I realise I'm stepping on toes, as a lot of traders like their indicators. 

An indicator is a crutch. It's helpful when we're just starting to walk again, but if we don't get rid of it we will probably start to depend on it, and it will probably limit performance. Maybe some need their crutch, but others may benefit from walking without it. Doesn't hurt to try.

Consider that this all stemmed from me stating that the information shown by indicators is already shown in a chart, and at least one - possibly more - seemingly denying this.



> The OP has stated he is a beginner, so wouldn't he be better served by learning about indicators




Maybe, maybe not. I'm not going to say that dumping indicators is certainly better for him, just that it could be. The only absolute I'm bringing to this thread is that the information shown by indicators is already in the chart.



> Doing this may also help the OP understand what the price action is actually saying and how best to take advantage of it.




Like almost everyone on any topic, I probably have a bias here. I found dumping indicators to be quite useful and allow me to read a chart better. I focused on the price action rather than the indicators. I do believe that indicators can be misleading and that it is better to go straight to the source (which isn't actually a chart, but anyway....).


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## Trembling Hand (30 June 2009)

havaiana said:


> Tomorrow night i'm going to do the exact opposite of what i did tonight. How can i go wrong??




To be doing the exact opposite of what you did last night would be to,

Find out some truths about how your market moves and then exploit that.

But I'm guessing you will be doing exactly the same as last night. Trading without an understanding.


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## --B-- (30 June 2009)

hi TH, i like what you say about an understanding the markets being central to designing a system and im interested in your suggestions as to how one furthers their knowledge and learns more about this? 

is it reading? is it practical experience? how does someone with a thirst for this knowledge begin on the long road to acquiring it?


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## Trembling Hand (30 June 2009)

--B-- said:


> hi TH, i like what you say about an understanding the markets being central to designing a system and im interested in your suggestions as to how one furthers their knowledge and learns more about this?
> 
> is it reading? is it practical experience? how does someone with a thirst for this knowledge begin on the long road to acquiring it?




Its a pretty big question and I haven't much time at the moment but,

You have to know what to expect from the market you trade. you have to know what sort of ranges are likely and what sort of day you have ahead of you. So if you are an index futs trader you need to know things like avg daily and avg 15 min ranges. Its no good trading for 100 ticks on a slow range bound day, especially after for example 3 large range days in the same direction.

Its no good having 30 tick profit target if your holding trades for 15 minutes and the ATR(15) is 12 ticks.

Its no good looking at the double bottom and support on the SPI and going long if the HSI opens down 3% and currency are getting smashed against the USD.

Its silly to go long on the open when the SPI gaps up to R2 on the open because its got a 60% chance of hitting R1 before R3.

Its a bit hard to cover everything but the problem I see people making is they think TA "works" and want to apply it. What works is looking and expecting the right things at the right time and knowing when the market/s are & aren't acting as expected.

Use TA to trade what you expect not to tell you what to think. (that's my approach anyway )


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## --B-- (30 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Its a pretty big question and I haven't much time at the moment but,
> 
> You have to know what to expect from the market you trade. you have to know what sort of ranges are likely and what sort of day you have ahead of you. So if you are an index futs trader you need to know things like avg daily and avg 15 min ranges. Its no good trading for 100 ticks on a slow range bound day, especially after for example 3 large range days in the same direction.
> 
> ...




many thanks TH. i understand the point youre making and appreciate you taking the time to elaborate for me. 

i think certainly experince plays a major part however this and general research and study must be coupled with an eyes wide open approach to ensure the greater picture is understood.


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## Mr J (30 June 2009)

Like always, I have an opinion, but wanted TH to reply first.



> i like what you say about an understanding the markets being central to designing a system




The strategy has to fit the game. Ranges, timeframe, stop and targets etc. They all have to be fit with each other, which goes with what TH said about ranges.



> how one furthers their knowledge and learns more about this?




Again my opinion, but my answer would be experience (screentime), and I believe TH will say something similar. Pretend the market is an animal and study it's habits. When does it sleep, eat, drink, mate? What is its mood? What is its nature? How should I approach it? When is it safe? Etc.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (1 July 2009)

Mr J said:


> *I didn't say indicators weren't useful* - *they are*, but as visual aids. Divergence is shown on a chart. It may not be immediately obvious, but it is there. It's the same information, just shown a different way. Anything shown on an indicator is also shown on the chart, it's just a matter of whether the trader can spot it on the chart or with the indicator.



But you said this:


> If the indicators are based on price action and one can read price action well, *then there's no need for indicators*.



And you said this:


> *They're useful if you can't readily see that info on a chart*, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to see it on the chart.



And this:


> I focused on the price action rather than the indicators. *I do believe that indicators can be misleading* and that it is better to go straight to the source



Finally:


> The only absolute I'm bringing to this thread is that the information shown by indicators is already in the chart.



So naturally any indicator derived from price is going to be of some help if not just a little. All the information is in the chart right?

I'm not interested in an argument and just highlighting what seems to be contradictory. And I would love to see how a divergence can be seen without an oscillator and just price bars or candlesticks. I am genuinely interested in this.


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## johenmo (1 July 2009)

Haviana... TH sums it up well - know your enemy - even if it leans towards currency trading.  It took me some months to realise that I didn't really understand the market I am in.  Even tried ATR but didn't work with it correctly.

If the market is in a strong trend eitherway then an MA will be more likely to assist.  I feel not all indicators work in all markets - just as one system doesn't work in all markets.  I devised one which will return $ in a bull market but will drive me to bankruptcy in this!!  

If you can get your head around price and volume movement/relationship I feel you have made a fundamental step in yr learning.  And look at charts - lots of them.  

Stock selection/filtering is important.  Tech/a gave good advice to a thread I started like yours.  Made me go away and think about it for months.

Trawl this forum.   Good stuff here but it's often hidden.  Good luck.


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## Mr J (1 July 2009)

Snake, you're overlooking the fact that just because something isn't necessary, doesn't mean it's not useful. Of course, that doesn't mean that indicators aren't necessary to some people.



> I'm not interested in an argument and just highlighting what seems to be contradictory




It's not contradictory, as those quotes do not address the same thing.



> And I would love to see how a divergence can be seen without an oscillator and just price bars or candlesticks




Divergence is simply situation where a move is running out of puff, and this is quite visible in real-time. It's obviously not as clear as identifying where stochs would be 'oversold' or 'overbought', but it's there.

A more concise description of my view on indicators, so there's no confusion:
1. They can be useful, but they are not necessary.
2. They show the same info a chart shows. It may or may not be hard to see this info on the chart.
3. Many people rely too heavily on indicators, particularly when they start trading.
4. Focus on indicators can take focus away from studying movement itself.
5. Dumping indicators altogether may be a very useful exercise.



> just as one system doesn't work in all markets




A system can work on all markets, at least from what I have seen.



> If the market is in a strong trend eitherway then an MA will be more likely to assist.




So will any other indicator you use.


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## Trembling Hand (1 July 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> And I would love to see how a divergence can be seen without an oscillator and just price bars or candlesticks. I am genuinely interested in this.




Snake its pretty easy to see what would be divergence on an chart without an indicator. In fact it is not divergence. Its just running out of steam with each cycle higher or lower. Divergence is the representation in the indicator. loss or reduction of momentum on each trust is the actual cause you are plotting.

So you would get prices cycles like up 100, down 20, up 70, down 25, up 40, down 18, up 25.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (1 July 2009)

Mr J


> Divergence is simply situation where a move is running out of puff, and this is quite visible in real-time. It's obviously not as clear as identifying where stochs would be 'oversold' or 'overbought', but it's there.



Oh, I see you are talking about exhaustion and not divergence. If only using price bars then there can be no divergence. I see now. 


> A more concise description of my view on indicators, so there's no confusion:
> 1. They can be useful, but they are not necessary.
> 2. They show the same info a chart shows. It may or may not be hard to see this info on the chart.
> 3. Many people rely too heavily on indicators, particularly when they start trading.
> ...




Thanks for the clarification. It is much easier to see that in one post.



> Snake its pretty easy to see what would be divergence on an chart without an indicator. *In fact it is not divergence*. Its just running out of steam with each cycle higher or lower. Divergence is the representation in the indicator. loss or reduction of momentum on each trust is the actual cause you are plotting.
> 
> So you would get prices cycles like up 100, down 20, up 70, down 25, up 40, down 18, up 25.




Thanks for your input here TH. As I have said above and you have said it is not divergence if there is nothing diverging. I call it exhaustion if not referring to a divergence. 

Cheers...


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## Mr J (1 July 2009)

Exhaustion would be a better term for the chart, I just used divergance since it relates it to the indicators. I definitely don't think indicators are useless, as I use paintbars combined with MAs to make trends more visible at a glance. I don't rely on them, but they do make it a little clearer (helpful when not wanting to stare at the monitor).


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## havaiana (19 October 2012)

It's been 3 years and 4 months since i got the trading bug (i went back to my first post here in this thread to work out how long i've been doing this for). Of that it's taken me 3 years to start to show good consistent (still working on the consistent bit) results

I thought about making a thread for the newbies on how i would approach things if i could go back, but after looking back on this thread and laughing at myself, my advice would be to just read Trembling Hands posts in this thread and unlike me, actually follow his advice. It would have saved me a whole lot of wasted time


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## bailx (12 December 2012)

*quote:* _If you can get your head around price and volume movement/relationship I feel you have made a fundamental step in yr learning_.

I'm sure there are a lot of trading systems out there, that work. such as indicators, Patterns, etc. All's good and well if your prepared to waste valuable Time Money and Effort on what could be a very complicated issue.

It kinda obvious to me that you need a system that comes from, and works with the hard a sole of your trade. find your trend and keep the momentum. Working the difference between two MA's can be a very reliable system. Its works with all market conditions and time frames, especially if you know what you are doing. this system is excellent for intraday trading the Forex market for results.


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