# Corruption in the Liberal Party



## rumpole (19 February 2014)

Just to make a change from Eddie Obeid and Ian McDonald, it appears the Libs in NSW aren't as white as snow either


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-19/liberals-to-suspend-hartcher-over-icac-inquiry/5268592

*Liberal trio named in corruption inquiry step down, avoiding suspension
by state political reporter Sarah Gerathy



"Former New South Wales energy minister Chris Hartcher and two other state government MPs have voluntarily withdrawn from the Liberal Party after moves to suspend them over corruption allegations were put in motion.

A senior government source confirmed to the ABC that the party started the process to suspend Mr Hartcher, Darren Webber and Chris Spence last night after they were named in new public hearings held by the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC).

The trio recently renominated for pre-selection in their Central Coast seats.

ICAC revealed it is investigating claims the MPs solicited money from various sources in return for favours.

It is also looking at whether Mr Hartcher favoured the interests of Australian Water Holdings after it allegedly made several payments to a company set up by one of his staffers.

The New South Wales Green MP John Kaye is now calling for a review of all decisions made by the former energy minister.

"The allegations throw a serious cloud over every decision that Mr Hartcher was involved in," he said.

The corruption watchdog will also hold a second inquiry examining separate allegations that former Labor ministers Eddie Obeid, Joe Tripodi and Tony Kelly misused their positions in parliament to benefit Australian Water Holdings.

A major fundraiser for the Liberal Party yesterday resigned from the board of the State Water Corporation after being linked to the corruption inquiries.

Nick di Girolamon was appointed to the board in 2012.

A directions hearing will be held next month."*
=========================================

More ABC propaganda perhaps ?


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## IFocus (19 February 2014)

I was shocked and horrified when I read this in the Liberal Daily News (AKA Australian)

Surely it cannot be true..............98 views and no comment............yep its true NSW Liberals rotten to the core who would have though


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## sptrawler (19 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> I was shocked and horrified when I read this in the Liberal Daily News (AKA Australian)
> 
> Surely it cannot be true..............98 views and no comment............yep its true NSW Liberals rotten to the core who would have though




Yes, really unusual for them to stand down, obviously didn't read Craig Thomsons how to do it.
 Also it stated the party was taking steps to suspend them. WOW
They obviously hadn't read the Labor Party, deny everything 101 book.lol


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## SirRumpole (15 April 2014)

Apparently, Barry O'Farrell is having unfortunate  memory problems (and I don't mean with his computer)



*ICAC hearing: Barry O'Farrell unable to explain phone call to Nick Di Girolamo after allegedly receiving $3,000 bottle of wine*

New South Wales Premier Barry O'Farrell has been unable to explain to the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) a call from his phone to a water executive who allegedly gave him a $3,000 bottle of wine.

ICAC alleges the company Australian Water Holdings (AWH) lobbied Mr O'Farrell over an agreement with the state-owned Sydney Water to roll out water infrastructure.

AWH is accused of corruptly billing Sydney Water for expenses and using the money for political donations, executive salaries and various other expenses.

AWH executive Nick Di Girolamo earlier told the inquiry he sent the Premier a $3,000 bottle of wine in 2011 to congratulate him after the election.

The bottle of Grange dated May 24, 1959 - Mr O'Farrell's birthday - does not appear on the Premier's pecuniary interests declaration for the period. Mr Di Girolamo denied that he sent the wine was to "butter up" Mr O'Farrell.

However, Mr O'Farrell denied receiving the wine at all, telling the inquiry: "I'm not a wine connoisseur".

The Premier also said he has no recollection of the 28-second call made from his phone to Mr Di Girolamo in 2011 around the time he was allegedly sent the wine.

But Mr Di Girolamo had earlier told ICAC that Mr O'Farrell phoned him to say thank you for the gift.

Mr O'Farrell also denied giving AWH favourable treatment for political donations and said while he could not remember the phone call, it could have been about anything.

After leaving the hearing, the Premier again strenuously defended his actions at a press conference.

"There's reference to a mystery bottle of wine ... there's no dates as to when it was allegedly delivered," he said.

"What we know for certainty is not only do my wife and I have clear recollection that no such bottle of wine was received ... but that at the period over which it was supposed to have been delivered is vague.

"But what's not vague is that my family spent most of that period in Queensland."

More...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-15/3000-bottle-of-wine-not-sent-to-butter-up-ofarrell/5391318


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## banco (15 April 2014)

LOL BOF ****ting himself on the stand when they raised the phone call.  Guess he didn't think they had the phone records.

Meanwhile this shifty clown can't remember the phone call but he definitely remembers he didn't receive the wine.


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## CanOz (15 April 2014)

A bottle of wine? That's the best you can do, a bottle of wine?


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## banco (15 April 2014)

CanOz said:


> A bottle of wine? That's the best you can do, a bottle of wine?




A $3,000 bottle of wine that BOF is desperately trying to claim he didn't receive.


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## SirRumpole (15 April 2014)

CanOz said:


> A bottle of wine? That's the best you can do, a bottle of wine?




So if it was  $3,000 in a plain brown envelope would that be different ?


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## sydboy007 (15 April 2014)

Considering how Abbott hounded Gillard over events from 20 years ago, claiming she should have perfect recall, his silence on Liberal members of parliament being unable to recall matters from just a few years back is telling.

I think they should stop using the "I don't recall" defence and start using the Abbott "There are some things the public has no particular right to know" defence.  Sums up the politicians attitude to the voting plebs.


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## CanOz (15 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> So if it was  $3,000 in a plain brown envelope would that be different ?




No of course not, bribery, lobbying or whatever you want to call this is wrong...but c'mon. Compared to the labor party the liberals are saints and will likely remain that way for the next decade...or at least until the corrupt unions are finally put to rest.


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## SirRumpole (15 April 2014)

On The Drum tonight it was said that Nick Greiner lost his job as Premier just because he appeared at ICAC, even though he did nothing wrong.

If Barry can't explain the discrepancy between his and another person's story , and why he made a phone call to the bloke after the wine was allegedly delivered, it's not a good look for him. It may not be anything criminal, but it may end his career.


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## SirRumpole (16 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> On The Drum tonight it was said that Nick Greiner lost his job as Premier just because he appeared at ICAC, even though he did nothing wrong.
> 
> If Barry can't explain the discrepancy between his and another person's story , and why he made a phone call to the bloke after the wine was allegedly delivered, it's not a good look for him. It may not be anything criminal, but it may end his career.




Told you so.

O'Farrell resigns.

For what it's worth I think O'farrell is a decent bloke who got caught by a memory slip. He's got the guts and integrity to accept the responsibility and fall on his sword.


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## McLovin (16 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Told you so.
> 
> O'Farrell resigns.
> 
> For what it's worth I think O'farrell is a decent bloke who got caught by a memory slip. He's got the guts and integrity to accept the responsibility and fall on his sword.




Wow. It's amazing how deep that crook Obeid's influence goes.

Barry O was utterly useless as a premier. Good riddance. A politician shouldn't be accepting a $3,000 bottle of wine. Whether he remembers or not is irrelevant.


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## trainspotter (16 April 2014)

BOF resigns after receiving a bottle of wine he can't remember receiving, then ICAC is given a hand written note from BOF thanking Nick Di Girolamo for the 59 Grange? Geeeeee should have spent the corporate credit card up to 25k on hookers and alcohol and denied the lot !!!! 

Good morning Worm your honour
The crown will plainly show
The prisoner who now stands before you
Was caught red handed showing feelings
Showing feelings of an almost human nature
This will not do

CALL THE SCHOOLMASTER

I always said he'd come to no good
In the end your honour
If they'd let me have my way I could
Have flayed him into shape
But my hands were tied
The bleeding hearts and artists
Let him get away with murder
Let me hammer him today

Crazy toys in the attic I am crazy
Truly gone fishing
They must have taken my marbles away
Crazy toys in the attic he is crazy

You little ****, you're in it now
I hope they throw away the key
You should talked to me more often
Than you did, but no you had to
Go your own way. Have you broken any homes up lately?

"Just five minutes Worm your honour him and me alone"

Baaaaaabe
Come to mother baby let me hold you in my arms
M'Lord I never wanted him to get in any trouble
Why'd he ever have to leave me
Worm your honour let me take him home

Crazy over the rainbow I am crazy
Bars in the window
There must have been a door there in the wall
When I came in
Crazy over the rainbow he is crazy

*The evidence before the court is
Incontrovertible, there's no need for
The jury to retire
In all my years of judging
I have never heard before of
Some one more deserving
The full penalty of law*
The way you made them suffer
Your exquisite wife and mother
Fills me with an urge to defecate
Since my friend you have revealed your deepest fear
I sentence you to be exposed before your peers

Tear down the wall


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## sptrawler (16 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Told you so.
> 
> O'Farrell resigns.
> 
> For what it's worth I think O'farrell is a decent bloke who got caught by a memory slip. He's got the guts and integrity to accept the responsibility and fall on his sword.




It just goes to show Joe Hockey is walking on thin ice, when he talks about the age of entitlemint and the general population getting too many handouts.

Polticians, for some reason, seem to feel they are entitled to all their perks, including ridiculous pensions. 
They also appear to be so concieted, as to see themselves as being above common law and the laws of decency.IMO

I think this NSW fiasco and the Thomson issue, is going to lead to the Royal Commission being far reaching, as it should be.
Politics has fallen to such a low level, that all and sundry see it as a easy path to riches and fortune. This was highligted in the recent W.A Senate elections, every man and his dog had a dip.


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## So_Cynical (16 April 2014)

Boom! oh those corrupt Liberals...should be a royal commission into Liberal party corruption.


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## banco (16 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Told you so.
> 
> O'Farrell resigns.
> 
> For what it's worth I think O'farrell is a decent bloke who got caught by a memory slip. He's got the guts and integrity to accept the responsibility and fall on his sword.




Don't agree.  It looks like he thought he could brazen it out by denying he'd ever received it but that he didn't realise they had the phone records (which seriously tripped him up on the witness stand).  Then of course the thankyou note was the final nail in his coffin.


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## sydboy007 (16 April 2014)

Quite telling that Abbott said BOF was "a servant to the Liberal party" before being "a servant of the people of NSW and of Australia"

Had to laugh at his media hissy fit over the use of the C word by a journalist.


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## banco (16 April 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Quite telling that Abbott said BOF was "a servant to the Liberal party" before being "a servant of the people of NSW and of Australia"
> 
> Had to laugh at his media hissy fit over the use of the C word by a journalist.




The media should have taken off the gloves with this and the last NSW Government years ago (admittedly the Sydney Morning Herald did their best and was hampered by our draconian defamation laws).


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## orr (16 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> On The Drum tonight it was said that Nick Greiner lost his job as Premier just because he appeared at ICAC, even though he did nothing wrong.




Nick Greiner bribed Terry Metherell(one time state liberal education minister) out of parliment and into a high payed public postion, beause Metherell had become some form of inconvenience. Greiner appealed the corruption finding in the supreme court. There was a split decision 2-3 in Greiners favour.

That's from my memory 'your honour', but please check my phone records circa 1989, from memory.


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## Calliope (16 April 2014)

banco said:


> The media should have taken off the gloves with this and the last NSW Government years ago (admittedly the Sydney Morning Herald did their best and was hampered by our draconian defamation laws).




The biggest story here is the waste of a bottle of 1959 Penfolds Grange. Talk about casting pearls before swine.
Here we have a man who is practically a non-drinker, who would have absolutely no appreciation of a good wine.

When i was a boy we had a saying;

"He wouldn't know his ar$ehole from a can of black axle grease". 

That would fit B.O'F.


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## SirRumpole (16 April 2014)

Calliope said:


> The biggest story here is the waste of a bottle of 1959 Penfolds Grange. Talk about casting pearls before swine.
> Here we have a man who is practically a non-drinker, who would have absolutely no appreciation of a good wine.
> 
> When i was a boy we had a saying;
> ...




Obviously you can't be a good Liberal without being a wine snob as well.

Wasn't there a thread somewhere about wine snobs being w@nkers ?


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## banco (16 April 2014)

Calliope said:


> The biggest story here is the waste of a bottle of 1959 Penfolds Grange. Talk about casting pearls before swine.
> Here we have a man who is practically a non-drinker, who would have absolutely no appreciation of a good wine.
> 
> When i was a boy we had a saying;
> ...




I doubt most people could tell the difference between a good $50 bottle of red and the 1959 Grange.


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## noco (16 April 2014)

It is great to to see you socialist lefties with a smile on your faces at last......you certainly haven't had much to smile about lately.

*$3000 BOTTLE OF WINE.......GOTCHA*

I do hope Bill Shorten will do the right thing and resign if he is caught up in the Royal commission into union corruption,


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## trainspotter (16 April 2014)

banco said:


> I doubt most people could tell the difference between a good $50 bottle of red and the 1959 Grange.




Quite easily ... you are buying the Grange for the wank factor and not the wine inside the bottle. It would taste like Condies crystals mixed with vinegar. I will have the Henschke Euphonium 2004 for the $50 bottle thanks


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## Calliope (16 April 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Quite easily ... you are buying the Grange for the wank factor and not the wine inside the bottle. It would taste like Condies crystals mixed with vinegar. I will have the Henschke Euphonium 2004 for the $50 bottle thanks




Sirumpy thinks that if you appreciate a good wine you must be a Liberal snob.



> Obviously you can't be a good Liberal without being a wine snob as well


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## DB008 (16 April 2014)

Lie. Got caught. Resigned.

Someone write this down and hand it to Craig Thompson on how its done.


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## drsmith (16 April 2014)

If BOF took the following advice, he may not have been such a bad day.



> I have certain rules when it comes to receiving gifts of Penfold’s Grange Hermitage. If it’s not a ‘55 I just won’t sign for it. Take it away. Give it to the dog. Get it out of my sight.




http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...australian/comments/obeiditis_the_toll_rises/

No umbrella though for Barry.


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## sydboy007 (16 April 2014)

noco said:


> It is great to to see you socialist lefties with a smile on your faces at last......you certainly haven't had much to smile about lately.
> 
> *$3000 BOTTLE OF WINE.......GOTCHA*
> 
> I do hope Bill Shorten will do the right thing and resign if he is caught up in the Royal commission into union corruption,




TBH I think Sinodinos has far more to answer for than BOF.

Is it me or does politics have an adverse effect on memory?


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## overhang (16 April 2014)

What a ruckus NSW are in, they vote the corrupt mob out and now this.  It is great however to see these memory lapses bite someone in the backside, too often these commissions result in the defense just being that they can't recall.  Murdoch hardly had another answer, George Pell should pray for his memory back and I'm betting Kevin 07 might be forgetful too, the hard hat wearing union officials will probably have the early signs of Alzheimer's as well.


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## drsmith (16 April 2014)

overhang said:


> the hard hat wearing union officials will probably have the early signs of Alzheimer's as well.



That I suspect is ultimately where the greatest volume of political blood will be shed.

From a non-partisan standpoint it's the right thing that's happened to BOF. It might encourage a broader lifting of the game from the rest, for a while at least.


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## McLovin (17 April 2014)

You know I had this though in the back of my mind yesterday that BOF was actually pretty tired of the job and had found a convenient way out. 

This isn't what you expect from a guy who has just thrown a hand grenade on his own career.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/one-day-on-barry-ofarrell-bounces-back-20140417-36tbv.html


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## trainspotter (17 April 2014)

Maybe he drank the '59 Grange which is why he cannot recall ever receiving it? 



> ‘‘Prime Minister, do you trust this government, the state government, *which is proving to be corrupt*, to deliver your major infrastructure plans?’’
> 
> *The question was perhaps poorly worded as no state Liberal has been found corrupt.*
> 
> ...





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...t-standards-20140416-zqvkp.html#ixzz2z6ZyiJxz

What's that ? *No state Liberal has been found corrupt* ? Pshaw you say !


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## banco (17 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> That I suspect is ultimately where the greatest volume of political blood will be shed.
> 
> From a non-partisan standpoint it's the right thing that's happened to BOF. It might encourage a broader lifting of the game from the rest, for a while at least.




Yes I suspect it will make even the dumbest, most craven politician in NSW much more careful about dealings with sleazy lobbyists.


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## Julia (17 April 2014)

McLovin said:


> You know I had this though in the back of my mind yesterday that BOF was actually pretty tired of the job and had found a convenient way out.
> 
> This isn't what you expect from a guy who has just thrown a hand grenade on his own career.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/one-day-on-barry-ofarrell-bounces-back-20140417-36tbv.html




Wouldn't it be much simpler, if he had had enough, to just trot out the ubiquitous "I'm resigning to spend more time with my family and pursue other long held interests......."?

Would he really besmirch his own integrity intentionally?  I don't know.  Don't think most people would.

He may have just been lazy/caught up in all the celebratory stuff of becoming Premier etc where he dashed off notes to various people who sent congratulatory gifts.  I don't think I'd remember whether I'd written a thank you note to everyone several years ago.

But there's no excuse for failing to register the gift.  If he'd done that none of this would have happened.


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## SirRumpole (17 April 2014)

Julia said:


> I don't think I'd remember whether I'd written a thank you note to everyone several years ago.
> 
> In that case he should have said "I don't recall receiving the gift" . He may still have looked bad, but he could have ridden it out and he would not have told a falsehood to ICAC.






> But there's no excuse for failing to register the gift.  If he'd done that none of this would have happened.




Indeed so. Maybe he just regarded it as a gift from one friend to another, but that doesn't square with what he said about not knowing Geronimo(!) very well. 

Something smells fishy that maybe BOF wants to keep from getting out, so he got out himself.


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## SirRumpole (17 April 2014)

Mike Baird is the NSW Liberal Premier

A clone of Tony Abbott by the looks of it

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-17/mike-baird-who-is-new-nsw-premier/5397336



> A devout Christian, a conservative, a former high-flying banker - Mike Baird has been at the helm of the state's finances for the past three years.
> 
> The state's new premier has a lot in common with Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> ...




But , darker matters may lie beneath the surface



> But the NSW Greens have raised questions about Mr Baird's relationship with Nick Di Girolamo, the executive of Australian Water Holdings whose gift of a 1951 bottle of Grange precipitated the chain of events which led to Mr O'Farrell's shock resignation.
> 
> Mr Baird appointed Mr Di Girolamo to the board of the State Water Corporation in June 2012.
> 
> ...




Has he received any gifts from Di Girolamo ?


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## noco (17 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed so. Maybe he just regarded it as a gift from one friend to another, but that doesn't square with what he said about not knowing Geronimo(!) very well.
> 
> Something smells fishy that maybe BOF wants to keep from getting out, so he got out himself.




Why are you lefties and some crumby media riding this bottle of wine to the death and exaggerating corruption in the Liberal party...there has been no corruption ......that fellow Geronimo (!), as you call him, did not get what he wanted...... There is no evidence of any wrong doing with either  O'Farrell and Sinodinos, so why blow up a situation that does not exist.

It would appear ICAC have exceeded their authority in a trivial matter instead of concentrating on the real issue in accordance with the terms of refernece laid out in their duties to get to the bottom of corruption.....There has  more publicity given to O"Farrell than has been to Obied.    


Another victim of a commission out of control

    Peter van Onselen
    The Australian
    April 17, 2014 12:00AM

    Print
    Save for later

68

WE can all sleep safely tonight in the knowledge that the Independent Commission Against Corruption in NSW has rooted out Premier Barry O’Farrell’s (at worst) failure to admit receiving a bottle of red wine, securing his resignation in the process.

Never mind that it didn’t influence his decisions on Australian Water Holdings; he rejected their application for the delivery of water infrastructure, notwithstanding AWH’s many (alleged) attempts to influence the policies of the NSW government.

We also sleep safely in the knowledge that Arthur Sinodinos has been outed for seeking an *albeit sizeable fee for his advice as chairman of a company. No evidence of wrongdoing mind you, but with Sinodinos’s ministerial career scuttled and his reputation besmirched in the wake of ICAC’s hearings, Tony Abbott’s government is an important man down.

Of course, for anyone who worries about the influence of the Obeids or the many examples of contracts issued and deals done that are anathema to good governance over the past decade in NSW, don’t expect convictions to follow recent public hearings.

It isn’t in ICAC’s charter to obtain convictions. Often the way they go about their inquiries (outside the usual chain of evidence, using phone taps that wouldn’t ordinarily be authorised, interviewing witnesses who are denied legal representation) impinges on charges ultimately being laid.

But there is little to no oversight of the way that ICAC uses the media to tar and feather politicians publicly, even those who have not been found to have engaged in wrongdoing. Anyone reading transcripts from ICAC hearings would be able to see that counsel assisting the inquiry has used the proceedings now to mock witnesses, in my view playing to the media as a key objective.

While it is hard to believe that O’Farrell couldn’t remember receiving such an expensive bottle of red wine, it is also hard to believe that he knowingly would *decide to mislead ICAC, given the consequences of doing so.

This is yet another reason why the star chamber that is ICAC should conduct hearings behind closed doors, if they must go on, so that they retain some legal integrity rather than resemble a modern witch trial.

ICAC needs to be reformed. O’Farrell isn’t the first sitting premier to be caught up in its web: Nick Greiner was forced to resign as premier more than two decades ago despite no finding of wrongdoing against him.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...n-out-of-control/story-fn53lw5p-1226887099719


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## SirRumpole (17 April 2014)

> .that fellow Geronimo (!), as you call him, did not get what he wanted.....




He got a high paying job at a government authority, State Water Corporation.

Once you start digging, other things may be uncovered. BOF got out very fast.


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## SirRumpole (17 April 2014)

> But there is little to no oversight of the way that ICAC uses the media to tar and feather politicians publicly, even those who have not been found to have engaged in wrongdoing. Anyone reading transcripts from ICAC hearings would be able to see that counsel assisting the inquiry has used the proceedings now to mock witnesses, in my view playing to the media as a key objective.
> 
> While it is hard to believe that O’Farrell couldn’t remember receiving such an expensive bottle of red wine, it is also hard to believe that he knowingly would *decide to mislead ICAC, given the consequences of doing so.




This is all baloney. O'Farrell couldn't answer the question asked, and he fell on his own sword.

Funny we didn't hear these sort of criticisms when Obeid and MacDonald got a going over.


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## IFocus (17 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> This is all baloney. O'Farrell couldn't answer the question asked, and he fell on his own sword.
> 
> Funny we didn't hear these sort of criticisms when Obeid and MacDonald got a going over.




Its been interesting, BOF on the surface appears pretty straight but the claim he didn't recall getting the bottle of plonk just doesn't cut it there is no way he would have forgotten he just got caught out trying to distance himself from the grubby side.
By rights he should go for contempt but being a Liberal thats never going to happen. 

Which leads to the next point of what else was changing hands  and who has Mike Baird been sleeping with clearly keeping closer company with the dark side.

Seems to just be the norm with NSW's politics it never stopped with the rum corps.


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## SirRumpole (17 April 2014)

IFocus said:


> Seems to just be the norm with NSW's politics it never stopped with the rum corps.




Seems di Geronimo donated to Campbell Newman too. Newman says he didn't know about it. Do we believe him ?


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## IFocus (17 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Seems di Geronimo donated to Campbell Newman too. Newman says he didn't know about it. Do we believe him ?





No we cannot, same deal Newman can claim he didn't know and get away with it would love to see how he would go in front of a commission on the matter.


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## noco (17 April 2014)

This link might a bit off the topic, but I thought it might match the bottle of wine BOF resigned over.

Tony Burke and Stephen Conroy had a couple of free weekends at Eddie Obieds ski lodge....Now why would Obied offer those to lefties something that was free but normally priced at over $2500. These weekends occurred in 2004 and 2006 and now suddenly they decide to declare it.

What favors did Obied ask of Burke and Conroy......Lets hope it all comes out. 



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ll_quits_over_gift_labor_frontbenchers_dont1/


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## Macquack (17 April 2014)

noco said:


> This link might a bit off the topic




Well, to quote your own words:-



> I think you have the wrong thread




Also, give it a rest with the everyone must be a *"leftie"* if they have a different view to your bloody self.


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## banco (17 April 2014)

IFocus said:


> Its been interesting, BOF on the surface appears pretty straight but the claim he didn't recall getting the bottle of plonk just doesn't cut it there is no way he would have forgotten he just got caught out trying to distance himself from the grubby side.
> By rights he should go for contempt but being a Liberal thats never going to happen.
> 
> Which leads to the next point of what else was changing hands  and who has Mike Baird been sleeping with clearly keeping closer company with the dark side.
> ...




I still think his wife would give very interesting testimony to ICAC if called.


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## noco (17 April 2014)

Macquack said:


> Well, to quote your own words:-
> 
> 
> 
> Also, give it a rest with the everyone must be a *"leftie"* if they have a different view to your bloody self.




OK in future I will call them comrades of the Greens.


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## IFocus (17 April 2014)

Nice to see the faceless men of the NSW Liberal party managed the new leaders election to run so neatly with smiles all round................deals Secret hand shakes etc. 

Move along please nothing to see here............


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## Julia (17 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed so. Maybe he just regarded it as a gift from one friend to another, but that doesn't square with what he said about not knowing Geronimo(!) very well.
> 
> Something smells fishy that maybe BOF wants to keep from getting out, so he got out himself.




Rumpole, in responding to my post 37 you have eliminated part of it and inserted this which I did not say:



> In that case he should have said "I don't recall receiving the gift" . He may still have looked bad, but he could have ridden it out and he would not have told a falsehood to ICAC.



  I made no such comment.

If you're going to quote any post of mine, it would be appreciated if you could do so accurately.


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## IFocus (17 April 2014)

Julia said:


> Rumpole, in responding to my post 37 you have eliminated part of it and inserted this which I did not say:
> 
> I made no such comment.
> 
> If you're going to quote any post of mine, it would be appreciated if you could do so accurately.




I read it as a reply to your comments and that Rumpole got the quote markers in the wrong place.


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## SirRumpole (18 April 2014)

Julia said:


> Rumpole, in responding to my post 37 you have eliminated part of it and inserted this which I did not say:
> 
> I made no such comment.
> 
> If you're going to quote any post of mine, it would be appreciated if you could do so accurately.




You are quite correct, it was due to an omitted quote tag, for which I apologise for my sloppiness.

You said



> I don't think I'd remember whether I'd written a thank you note to everyone several years ago.




and I replied



> In that case he should have said "I don't recall receiving the gift" . He may still have looked bad, but he could have ridden it out and he would not have told a falsehood to ICAC.


----------



## chiff (18 April 2014)

It has always made me think about an ambiguous reply at the airport when you are asked if you packed your own bag.
Your own words may damn you ,whether you are culpable or not.


----------



## Julia (18 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> You are quite correct, it was due to an omitted quote tag, for which I apologise for my sloppiness.



That's fine, Rumpole.  I should have realised what had happened.  Thanks for explaining.


----------



## noco (18 April 2014)

That bottle of wine will end up being a mouse in the room compared to the elephant that is about appear.

Stay tuned.

Please read the link and the high lights associated with the link.....it will make good reading for some but so good for others.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._between_obeids_labor_and_ofarrells_liberals/


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2014)

noco said:


> That bottle of wine will end up being a mouse in the room compared to the elephant that is about appear.
> 
> Stay tuned.
> 
> ...




The Robertson thing came out some time ago and ICAC has taken no action, but yes he should have reported it.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The Robertson thing came out some time ago and ICAC has taken no action, but yes he should have reported it.




But if you want to see an honest man , look at Robertson. The guy who offered him the bribe is dead, all Roberston had to do was keep his mouth shut and no-one would know. Barry got caught by the evidence and had to own up, I'd say Robertson is one up on him.


----------



## banco (18 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> But if you want to see an honest man , look at Robertson. The guy who offered him the bribe is dead, all Roberston had to do was keep his mouth shut and no-one would know. Barry got caught by the evidence and had to own up, I'd say Robertson is one up on him.




You don't think Robertson knew or thought that someone else knew and wanted to get out in front of it?  

I don't think it's going too far to say that if you are a paid up member of the NSW Labor Right you are a scumbag without integrity because only such a person could remain a member. NSW would have been far better off if the right of the NSW Labor party had been put up against a wall and shot years ago.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 April 2014)

banco said:


> You don't think Robertson knew or thought that someone else knew and wanted to get out in front of it?
> 
> I don't think it's going too far to say that if you are a paid up member of the NSW Labor Right you are a scumbag without integrity because only such a person could remain a member. NSW would have been far better off if the right of the NSW Labor party had been put up against a wall and shot years ago.




I think we just have to accept the fact that corruption is a bipartisan matter. 

The Askin , Burke and Bjelke Peterson years were some of the most corrupt in history, and it will take Independent bodies like ICAC to expose anything happening today.

The relationships between property developers and governments of all shades and at all levels needs to be thoroughly probed as well as the Obeid type of blatant rorting and the more subtle 'favours for mates' type of corruption.

I want to see a party (maybe the Greens) campaign strongly on public funding of political parties, which may go some way to ending political patronage and influence peddling on all sides of politics.


----------



## sydboy007 (19 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I want to see a party (maybe the Greens) campaign strongly on public funding of political parties, which may go some way to ending political patronage and influence peddling on all sides of politics.




Bring in a rule that you can receive either your publicly funded pension OR continue to work, but you can't have both.  Not saying their pension is gone, just that the argument years ago for politicians to be able to get their pension early was that after many years of public "service" they should be supported as they may have trouble getting a new job.  If they're happy to continue working then they don't need that tax payer support.

Bring in some form of public record for when someone how previously held an elected position meets with a currently elected person.  Should shine the spot light on how much access these people are being given.

Bring in an independent body that is charged with determining job hiring for public companies and overseas positions.  I'm too sick of each party putting in an old colleague to lord it in London or New York at taxpayer expense.  Bring in some public scrutiny to the process and have an open process to show that whoever is picked has been properly screened and was the best candidate to apply for the position.  I'm also sick of jobs for mates as directors in public companies.

bring in a rule to stop members of a union or political party who serve at a high level - say anything higher than the equivalent of a branch leader - and especially anyone involved with fundraising or setting party policy should be banned from being appointed to any government funded position ie public company boards, audits / commissions.

Bring in a rule where a person who has strong views on a issue that is generally publicly known should not be appointed to a role where they receive a publicly funded position to determine policy in that area.  How can the public have faith in the findings if it's well know the person leading the review already appears to have made their mind up?

I'm sure there's other ways to try and stem the flow of political patronage.  At least shining a light on it and giving the public something to be angry over may make politicians at least rethink some of their actions, but from the feeble excuses we continually get over expense rorts voting them out may be the way way to really get their attention.

The stench of corruption is everywhere within politics these days.  It's in the revolving door nature from politics to plum lobbying positions or board directorships.  It's in the way each party hires from the corporate world those that align with their views so they can stack reviews to present the outcome they want.  In a pluralistic society we should welcome the airing of opposing views as this helps keep tensions from becoming too extreme, and it also helps to avoid the mistakes of being too myopic on an issue.

Maybe we need to look towards the Swiss and their style of Governing where they have quarterly referendums.  It's a lot harder to use corruption to your advantage when there's regular votes by the people on important public policy. Imagine if we'd been able to have a referendum on Work Choices, carbon Tax, Refugees policy, sending troops to Iraq II, PPL.  WE might be able to stop some of the more extreme political blunders of our "leaders"


----------



## SirRumpole (19 April 2014)

All good ideas Syd, but it isn't going to happen while the two major parties hold sway.

Do I interpret your last post as an endorsement of the Greens ? (It's fine if it is, I just want to know)


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we just have to accept the fact that corruption is a bipartisan matter.
> 
> The Askin , Burke and Bjelke Peterson years were some of the most corrupt in history, and it will take Independent bodies like ICAC to expose anything happening today.
> 
> ...




Don't forget the comrades of the Greens...Gillard, Shorten, Tony Burke and Steven Conroy.

Are you serious about giving the Greens more strength?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 April 2014)

noco said:


> Don't forget the comrades of the Greens...Gillard, Shorten, Tony Burke and Steven Conroy.
> 
> Are you serious about giving the Greens more strength?




If they can bring about an end to the corruption of the major parties, yes.

Once the Libs and Labor get their act together and show that they can govern for us and not their mates in the unions or business then they may be worth considering again.


----------



## sydboy007 (19 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> All good ideas Syd, but it isn't going to happen while the two major parties hold sway.
> 
> Do I interpret your last post as an endorsement of the Greens ? (It's fine if it is, I just want to know)




I suppose the Greens are to me like all other parties.  Some good ideas amongst the chaff, but no overall narrative i can follow that makes me believe that voting them in will see me and the rest of the country better off in 10+ years.


----------



## banco (19 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we just have to accept the fact that corruption is a bipartisan matter.
> 
> The Askin , Burke and Bjelke Peterson years were some of the most corrupt in history, and it will take Independent bodies like ICAC to expose anything happening today.
> 
> ...




I suppose you're right.  I grew up with Obeid and co so I take them particularly personally.  I guess my problem is that Australians don't have as much contempt for certain politicians as they rightly should.  Obeid should be spat on in the street yet he's swanning around Sydney still.

Sir Joh is still venerated by certain queenslanders without any brains.


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> I suppose the Greens are to me like all other parties.  Some good ideas amongst the chaff, but no overall narrative i can follow that makes me believe that voting them in will see me and the rest of the country better off in 10+ years.




You have to be joking Syd.......how could we possibly be better off..

No coal fired power stations.

Close down all the coal mines

Reliant on renewable  energy.

Increase the carbon tax to $100 per tonne

Burn candles at night and no air conditioning in the tropics....no heating in the winter time. 

Increase taxes to all business 

Send more business down the gurgler.

Increase unemployment.

Control freedom of speech.

Control the media.

Create racial hatred.

Nationalize the banks, mining, manufacturing and agriculture.

Yeah sure we will be better off living in Ethiopia.....

Pigs might fly also.


----------



## McLovin (19 April 2014)

banco said:


> I suppose you're right.  I grew up with Obeid and co so I take them particularly personally.  I guess my problem is that Australians don't have as much contempt for certain politicians as they rightly should.  Obeid should be spat on in the street yet he's swanning around Sydney still.




Obeid being a crook was an open secret in Sydney. I really don't know how he lasted so long. He'll get plenty of time to think about what he's done once he's wearing his green tracksuit.


----------



## McLovin (19 April 2014)

noco said:


> You have to be joking Syd.......how could we possibly be better off..
> 
> No coal fired power stations.
> 
> ...




I think you need to reread syd's post.


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

McLovin said:


> I think you need to reread syd's post.




Why do I have to reread Syd's post...it is perfectly clear to me.


----------



## banco (19 April 2014)

McLovin said:


> Obeid being a crook was an open secret in Sydney. I really don't know how he lasted so long. He'll get plenty of time to think about what he's done once he's wearing his green tracksuit.




I wouldn't count on it.  I think for technical reasons a lot of the potential charges will be hard to get a conviction on.  You'll  notice the mount penny mining ICAC report came down in July last year and he hasn't been charged with diddly squat.


----------



## McLovin (19 April 2014)

noco said:


> Why do I have to reread Syd's post...it is perfectly clear to me.




Because he said we wouldn't be better off under the Greens.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 April 2014)

McLovin said:


> Obeid being a crook was an open secret in Sydney. I really don't know how he lasted so long. He'll get plenty of time to think about what he's done once he's wearing his green tracksuit.




I really hope it comes to that, but he's got the dough to pay the best lawyers, and I doubt he will end up in the klink.


----------



## Julia (19 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If they can bring about an end to the corruption of the major parties, yes.



Dream on, Rumpole.  The Greens themselves engage in a type of corruption re their insistence that we are all doomed unless we dump electricity for candles etc.  (Yes I'm exaggerating to make the point).
They are economic illiterates.  There is no reason to imagine they have any way of ending corruption in the major parties.

Corruption is endemic across Australian politics and in business.   It just blew me away when I came here from NZ two decades ago.  In a country where people celebrate an outlaw as a major hero, I suppose it's not surprising.




sydboy007 said:


> I suppose the Greens are to me like all other parties.  Some good ideas amongst the chaff, but no overall narrative i can follow that makes me believe that voting them in will see me and the rest of the country better off in 10+ years.



As McLovin says, noco, Syd is not advocating for the Greens.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 April 2014)

> It just blew me away when I came here from NZ two decades ago. In a country where people celebrate an outlaw as a major hero, I suppose it's not surprising.




You came from New Zealand ? Welcome(belatedly). Is NZ's political system any better ?

Your snide remark about worshipping an outlaw is in bad taste. Like everything similar those with a vested interest like running museums, making movies or writing books talk people's dubious exploits up for their own gain. The rest of us don't give a rats.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 April 2014)

Julia said:


> Dream on, Rumpole.  The Greens themselves engage in a type of corruption re their insistence that we are all doomed unless we dump electricity for candles etc.  (Yes I'm exaggerating to make the point).
> They are economic illiterates.  There is no reason to imagine they have any way of ending corruption in the major parties.
> .




The Greens are the only party that advocates public funding of political parties, the only way the power of vested interests like unions, business and lobbyists can be reduced. That's worth at least a preference vote to me.


----------



## sydboy007 (19 April 2014)

noco said:


> You have to be joking Syd.......how could we possibly be better off..




You support a party that believes PPL is a great way to spend tax payer funds, that believes it's OK to allow bigots to spread their bile, and doesn't believe the Federal Govt should support public transport.

You support a PM who stood side by side with Don Randall and pretty much did his best to justify a $5K taxpayer funded 2 hour meeting.

Take off you blinkers noco.  Start looking at the reality rather than having all your views shaped by Newscorp.  Life is not all black and white.  Most of it is varying shades of grey.  No political party is all good or all bad.  There's rotten apples everywhere and the harder we voters come down on parties protecting their corrupt members the better.

I've said repeatedly on this site I don't think any of the political parties are worthy of my vote.  None of them are really about tackling the challenges we face as a country.  It's all window dressing with the odd good piece of policy.  We're a country that has something like $128B in tax expenditures each year, and there's so far not any political will to start looking at these massive holes in Government revenue.  Our political leaders have wedged themselves into opposing introducing or increasing more efficient taxes, instead fiddling around the edges with the current very inefficient system we have.  We rely too heavily on destructive corporate and income taxes, yet no party is willing to show / educate the public on why we need to start making changes NOW.  2010 was the peak worker to dependent ratio.  It's all down hill from now, with the decline quite steep to 2030.

We have Hockey making some pleasing noise regarding the aged pension, yet still ignoring the fact too many people get more than half the cost of the aged pension each year in superannuation tax expenditures, then Labor trying to stir up fear and loathing about sensible pension reforms, with Abbott showing he has little to no ticker to do anything that requires getting the public to understand the difficult choices we face.

So if you're 100% happy with the Liberal party and everything they're trying to achieve at state and federal levels, well kudos to you.  I might even be interested in which happy pills you've been prescribed as the way things are going I might need some to numb the disappointment I have with our political system.  As for myself, and judging by the many postings from other members on this site, most of us are resigned to picking the least smelly option each election and long for TRUE political LEADERSHIP.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 April 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> ... and long for TRUE political LEADERSHIP.




Yep, what we need is another Keating.

Or maybe the same one


----------



## explod (19 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, what we need is another Keating.
> 
> Or maybe the same one




Agree.

As a youngster my Mother was left wing but my Dad particularly admired Fraser who gave particular attention to the welfare of the less well off.

Politics have shifted so far from reality and the needs of the average Joe that one can only shake the head.

Noco, an eye opener for you would be a few hours a week doing voluntary for the Salvo's


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> You support a party that believes PPL is a great way to spend tax payer funds, that believes it's OK to allow bigots to spread their bile, and doesn't believe the Federal Govt should support public transport.
> 
> *Firstly, I have repeatedly stated that I oppose the PPL and if you are astute enough you would have noted that before putting your foot in your mouth.*
> 
> ...




We all have our own opinions and each and every one should accept the others opinion without prejudice or personal attacks.

I guess we will have to wait and see how the present government fairs in their remaining term and then judge them from there....I hope they do get another term because there is no way they can rectify the mess left by the previous Government in just 3 years.


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

explod said:


> Agree.
> 
> As a youngster my Mother was left wing but my Dad particularly admired Fraser who gave particular attention to the welfare of the less well off.
> 
> ...





My friend I was on the Management board of the Salvation Army for 3 years...I am very familiar with the Sallies


----------



## Julia (19 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> You came from New Zealand ? Welcome(belatedly). Is NZ's political system any better ?



 New Zealand is consistently rated in the top three of the world's least corrupt countries.



> Your snide remark about worshipping an outlaw is in bad taste.



It's an observation made from many articles, radio programs etc over the time I've lived here.  Nothing to do with museums, movies or books.  There is a clearly widespread observable benign regard for Ned Kelly, often uttered in the same vein as the affection for the Australian 'larrikin' character.




noco said:


> My friend I was on the Management board of the Salvation Army for 3 years...I am very familiar with the Sallies



So funny.  Explod, you really can't draw conclusions about people's character when you don't know them.

The irony is that if noco were to be similarly enthusiastic about Labor or the Greens you'd likely regard him as being something close to the archangel Gabriel.


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

noco said:


> My friend I was on the Management board of the Salvation Army for 3 years...I am very familiar with the Sallies





I was a Rotarian at the time where the Rotary motto is "Service above self". Several Rotarians  served the Salvation Army with honor as we did many other projects around the city.


----------



## Ves (20 April 2014)

Julia said:


> In a country where people celebrate an outlaw as a major hero, I suppose it's not surprising.



Ignoring what folk lore says,  it sounds more complicated than that to me.

After all,   they had a royal commission into the actions of the police in the whole affair.

Like most things in life there is no moral clarity - just what certain groups choose to argue as the actual reality.  There are no sides that are 100% correct,   no matter how much people on either side of the coin pretend that this is the case to prove the moral belief for which they stand.

I am not sure if you realised it,  but the Ned Kelly affair is highly relevant to this thread.  Government / police corruption  and criminal activity has not changed one bit since those retrospectively famous days.


----------



## sydboy007 (20 April 2014)

noco said:


> We all have our own opinions and each and every one should accept the others opinion without prejudice or personal attacks.
> 
> I guess we will have to wait and see how the present government fairs in their remaining term and then judge them from there....I hope they do get another term because there is no way they can rectify the mess left by the previous Government in just 3 years.




I never said you support PPL, only that you support the PM who wants to introduce it.  The 2 are very different. You made the same mistake as you did with my comments about the greens, and a number of people have told you the same.

How about we just condemn all corruption and stop trying the "they're badder than my team" argument.  Most of us don't see much to distinguish either party from the other when it comes to corruption and jobs for mates.

Do you have proof that 95% of greens are rotten apples?  I don't seem to remember any of them billing their political mates weddings to the tax payer, or say book signing tours.

So you don't think it's a problem we have around $128B in tax expenditures?  Do you know what they are?  Do you know what the top 3 or 4 are?  Do you think they provide at least as much benefit to the economy as the revenue forgone?

Kudos to Gillard for increasing the retirement age to 67, unless of course you think it was bad policy?  It will certainly need to be raised again in the future.  As you point out we're living longer and will need to work longer.  It is a bonus that continuing to work will also keep us healthier.  My comment was relating to Hockey dog whistling on further increasing the retirement age to 70, criticising Labor for their cheap opposition of a good policy reform, and also criticising Abbott for not showing the leadership required to get the public discourse going that is required to show these changes are necessary if we want to stop a blow out of the budget deficit in the future.

_We all have our own opinions and each and every one should accept the others opinion without prejudice or personal attacks._

You could tone down your attacks on anyone not beyond centre right then.  Reread your comments about the greens and you'll hopefully understand what I'm saying.  Loaded terms like Comrade are very prejudicial.


----------



## sydboy007 (20 April 2014)

Ves said:


> Ignoring what folk lore says,  it sounds more complicated than that to me.
> 
> After all,   they had a royal commission into the actions of the police in the whole affair.
> 
> ...




If anything it got worse till the states brought in various anti corruption / integrity bodies to stamp out the extreme abuse of police power.

Probably one of the worst recent cases of police coverups was the 2012 beating of Corey Barker in the ballina police station, with the police trying to destroy video evidence that was latter restored by the police prosecutor, which showed the true story of 4 police officers giving Corey Barker a pretty sever beating, with others not doing their duty to protect him.  They all lied under oath.  I was a bit disappointed to see that four of the officers are on restricted duty, one has been suspended and another has been medically discharged.  Some jail time and losing their jobs seems a better punishment.

In todays SMH there's a whole other level of corruption where the elite get away with "murder."

http://www.smh.com.au/business/life...s-in-the-hands-of-lawyers-20140418-36w83.html

_Ian Humphrey was cycling along a road north of Adelaide when he was hit and killed by barrister Eugene McGee. McGee fled the scene.

It later emerged that McGee had been at lunch. His party of three had ordered three bottles of wine, a glass of port and a glass of beer. He was found guilty of driving without due care and of failing to stop and render assistance after an accident. His penalty was a $3100 fine and a one-year driving ban.

Humphrey's widow Di complained to South Australia's Legal Practitioners Conduct Board. Five years later she got a reply. The conduct board found McGee's conduct was not of a sufficiently ''infamous nature'' as to be deemed unprofessional._


----------



## banco (20 April 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> If anything it got worse till the states brought in various anti corruption / integrity bodies to stamp out the extreme abuse of police power.
> 
> Probably one of the worst recent cases of police coverups was the 2012 beating of Corey Barker in the ballina police station, with the police trying to destroy video evidence that was latter restored by the police prosecutor, which showed the true story of 4 police officers giving Corey Barker a pretty sever beating, with others not doing their duty to protect him.  They all lied under oath.  I was a bit disappointed to see that four of the officers are on restricted duty, one has been suspended and another has been medically discharged.  Some jail time and losing their jobs seems a better punishment.
> 
> [/I]




Still a far cry from police corruption in NSW in seventies and eighties.  If you were a NSW cop in seventies and eighties you were either corrupt or turning a blind eye to corruption.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2014)

banco said:


> Still a far cry from police corruption in NSW in seventies and eighties.  If you were a NSW cop in seventies and eighties you were either corrupt or turning a blind eye to corruption.




Corruption in the police is a result of corruption of the politicians. Askin, Hinze, Bjelke Petersen, Terry Lewis , politicians and police feeding off each other.


----------



## noco (20 April 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> I never said you support PPL, only that you support the PM who wants to introduce it.  The 2 are very different. You made the same mistake as you did with my comments about the greens, and a number of people have told you the same.
> 
> *I made it clear to you, I do not support the PPL.......but I do support the current PM....there is a difference.
> 
> ...




*That applies to you too ole boy.....I do not see any problem with referring to comrades of the Greens, unless of course it is a worry to you.

*


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2014)

> That applies to you too ole boy.....I do not see any problem with referring to comrades of the Greens, unless of course it is a worry to you.




So , it's ok with you if I refer to Nick Girolamo as a comrade of the Liberal Party ?


----------



## Julia (20 April 2014)

Ves said:


> Ignoring what folk lore says,  it sounds more complicated than that to me.



Ves, did you consider for a moment that my comment about Ned Kelly was somewhat tongue in cheek?
As so often happens, someone picks one throw away line out of a longer post and proceeds to respond to just that phrase.  What I had said before that was


> The Greens themselves engage in a type of corruption re their insistence that we are all doomed unless we dump electricity for candles etc. (Yes I'm exaggerating to make the point).
> They are economic illiterates. There is no reason to imagine they have any way of ending corruption in the major parties.
> 
> Corruption is endemic across Australian politics and in business. It just blew me away when I came here from NZ two decades ago.




So, completely ignoring that, you go on with



> After all,   they had a royal commission into the actions of the police in the whole affair.
> 
> Like most things in life there is no moral clarity - just what certain groups choose to argue as the actual reality.  There are no sides that are 100% correct,   no matter how much people on either side of the coin pretend that this is the case to prove the moral belief for which they stand.
> 
> I am not sure if you realised it,  but the Ned Kelly affair is highly relevant to this thread.  Government / police corruption  and criminal activity has not changed one bit since those retrospectively famous days.



So fairly obviously I'm highly aware of and find utterly repugnant the widespread corruption that occurs.




sydboy007 said:


> How about we just condemn all corruption and stop trying the "they're badder than my team" argument.  Most of us don't see much to distinguish either party from the other when it comes to corruption and jobs for mates.



+100.   And it's not just confined to politics.

A letter to "The Weekend Australian" says


> The most frightening aspect of the sorry Australian Water Holdings tale is that if Barry O'Farrell had done great favours for them he would still be premier of NSW because then the damning thank you note would probably never have surfaced.



Says it all, really.  Seems payback came to BOF for his refusal to participate in de Gerolomo's dirty attempts at bribery.


----------



## McLovin (20 April 2014)

Julia said:


> So fairly obviously I'm highly aware of and find utterly repugnant the widespread corruption that occurs.




I don't think corruption is widespread in Australia. Yes it exists but it is lower than comparable sized countries. 

The CPI might be of interest. I'd bet that part of the fall in Australia's ranking can be attributed to what ICAC has been uncovering.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2014)

> Says it all, really. Seems payback came to BOF for his refusal to participate in de Gerolomo's dirty attempts at bribery.




The fact is though that Di Gerolimo DID get a payoff, an executive job at a government Authority, The State Water Corporation, signed off by Mike Baird.

So why should we assume that O'Farrell had nothing to do with this ? He may have suggested to Baird that Di Gerolimo was a 'mate' and should be found a nice job.

 Assumptions that O'Farrell is a cleanskin in this matter are premature.


----------



## Calliope (20 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Corruption in the police is a result of corruption of the politicians. Askin, Hinze, Bjelke Petersen, Terry Lewis , politicians and police feeding off each other.




You certainly have to did deep into the past in your crusade to dredge up dirt on the Liberals. But as usual you get it wrong. Of the four politicians you mention, only Askin was a Liberal. Perhaps you should stay on topic.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2014)

Calliope said:


> You certainly have to did deep into the past in your crusade to dredge up dirt on the Liberals. But as usual you get it wrong. Of the four politicians you mention, only Askin was a Liberal. Perhaps you should stay on topic.




The Liberals and the Nats/Country Party are effectively the same thing and you are just nitpicking. When was the last time we had a Liberal Federal government ? 

 I can request a change to the thread title to "Corruption in the Coalition" if you prefer.


----------



## noco (20 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> So , it's ok with you if I refer to Nick Girolamo as a comrade of the Liberal Party ?




Rumpy, that is your prerogative .....If that gives you pleasure.....go for it.


----------



## Ves (20 April 2014)

Julia said:


> Ves, did you consider for a moment that my comment about Ned Kelly was somewhat tongue in cheek?



I'm not sure that it matters that the line in your comment was a throw away comment.   Intention of the author, can be and often is irrelevant,  as interpretation in a different context by the audience will lead to different lines of discussion as a whole.

In fact others may not have realized that the Ned Kelly affair is very relevant to the discussion of corruption in the government and its related bodies.

I'm not really sure that you need to constantly lecture people how they reply to your posts.   Publishing anything in a public space will, necessarily,  despite your protestations lead to discussion outside of your own interpretation / or original context because different people will come make different connections or use different thought processes,  and sometimes gladly arrive at different conclusions.

Often embedded in different posts are multiple subjects or contexts.  Replying to one of them, rather than any others, is the right of anyone on a forum.


----------



## noco (20 April 2014)

[

How about we just condemn all corruption and stop trying the "they're badder than my team" argument.  Most of us don't see much to distinguish either party from the other when it comes to corruption and jobs for mates.


*That is fine by me too so why don't you ask Rumpy to delete this thread altogether instead of trying discredit the Liberal Party.......There seems to be a lack of principle here.*


----------



## Calliope (20 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The Liberals and the Nats/Country Party are effectively the same thing and you are just nitpicking. When was the last time we had a Liberal Federal government ?




You are just showing your ignorance. None of the people you mention had anything to do with Federal Government. Bjelke-Petersen hated the Libs as much as you do.



> I can request a change to the thread title to "Corruption in the Coalition" if you prefer.




It's your thread, call it what you like. What about "Corruption in the Greens"? What about your much revered hero Bob Brown? He was fined $240,000 to repay costs that he ran up in a failed attempt to destroy the Tasmanian forest industry. If his rich mates hadn't bailed him out he would have been kicked out of parliament for insolvency. Shrewd business men don't  pay out that sort of money and expect nothing in return.

In other words, his rich mates bought his seat in parliament. Why? As a closet Green i expect you would know.


----------



## drsmith (20 April 2014)

The fundamental problem with BOF is that he accepted that expensive old bottle of wee in the first place.

Had he not done so, his memory would not have been an issue.

Disclaimer:
If it was a bottle of red, the above comment demonstrates my level of knowledge with wine.


----------



## banco (20 April 2014)

Calliope said:


> You are just showing your ignorance. None of the people you mention had anything to do with Federal Government. Bjelke-Petersen hated the Libs as much as you do.
> 
> .




Sir Joh was a corrupt piece of **** who should have died in prison.


----------



## Julia (20 April 2014)

Ves said:


> I'm not sure that it matters that the line in your comment was a throw away comment.   Intention of the author, can be and often is irrelevant,  as interpretation in a different context by the audience will lead to different lines of discussion as a whole.



Oh dear, I had no idea that my tongue in cheek remark about the benign affection seemingly bestowed on a dead outlaw would cause so much angst.  My apologies for the apparent insult to the Australian persona.



> I'm not really sure that you need to constantly lecture people how they reply to your posts.



Not lecturing anyone, just making a plea for the context to be included in replies.  


> Publishing anything in a public space will, necessarily,  despite your protestations lead to discussion outside of your own interpretation / or original context because different people will come make different connections or use different thought processes,  and sometimes gladly arrive at different conclusions.



Agree entirely.  But if we can just try to avoid ignoring the main point in favour of some minor tangential focus it might be better.



> Often embedded in different posts are multiple subjects or contexts.  Replying to one of them, rather than any others, is the right of anyone on a forum.



Sure.  And it's the right of the writer of the original comment to respond as they wish too.

It's one of the eternal problems of internet communication, ie the lack of tone, facial expression etc.  If I've offended you I'm entirely happy to apologise.


----------



## Ves (20 April 2014)

Julia said:


> If I've offended you I'm entirely happy to apologise.



There is no need to apologize Julia,  there is no angst or ill-will at all intended on my behalf.  I thought that your comment about Ned Kelly was very interesting and that is why I replied to it as a separate idea  (it was not my intention at all to focus on the element of it being interpreted as derogative to Australian culture,  but more of the nuance of it being relevant to the context of this debate). I enjoy finding connections between the past and the present and it is often said that history rhymes,  and is fairly cylical or thematically repetitive,  so it is sometimes worth making unusual connections,  especially out of context.

I accept that some posters will find this distasteful or bothersome to their aims.

I wouldn't be so much offended that someone has withdrawn from the context of something that I have said,  but more pleased that they bothered to take the time to read my post and think about it,  perhaps even consider it in a different light.

You or others may see that as folly,  but in my experience, it is what moves the dialogue of life along,   despite the temporary diversions or distractions it may cause to us in the present.

In any event,  Happy Easter and I hope we can all continue to find new ways of looking at things.


----------



## Julia (20 April 2014)

Ves, thoughtful and much appreciated post.  Your points are very valid.  Thank you and good wishes.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2014)

noco said:


> [
> 
> 
> *That is fine by me too so why don't you ask Rumpy to delete this thread altogether instead of trying discredit the Liberal Party.......There seems to be a lack of principle here.*




Oh, there is no lack of principle, simply a desire for balance. There is a thread about about ICAC's enquiries into union corruption, so are we supposed to ignore corruption elsewhere ?

 We could amalgamate everything into a "Corruption in Politics" thread, that would be fine by me.


----------



## Calliope (20 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh, there is no lack of principle, simply a desire for balance. There is a thread about about ICAC's enquiries into union corruption, so are we supposed to ignore corruption elsewhere ?
> 
> We could amalgamate everything into a "Corruption in Politics" thread, that would be fine by me.




I think "Corruption in the Greens" would provide enough balance and would be fine by me.


----------



## IFocus (20 April 2014)

noco said:


> [
> 
> How about we just condemn all corruption and stop trying the "they're badder than my team" argument.  Most of us don't see much to distinguish either party from the other when it comes to corruption and jobs for mates.
> 
> ...




Extraordinary post after your continued vitriol of the greens and Labor Party


----------



## noco (20 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh, there is no lack of principle, simply a desire for balance. There is a thread about about ICAC's enquiries into union corruption, so are we supposed to ignore corruption elsewhere ?
> 
> We could amalgamate everything into a "Corruption in Politics" thread, that would be fine by me.





Sydboy was referring to corruption in politics on both sides of the major parties....The Royal Commission into union corruption is another issue and is completely divorced from the Liberal Party but may not exclude the Labor Party.


----------



## banco (20 April 2014)

IFocus said:


> Extraordinary post after your continued vitriol of the greens and Labor Party




Irony and self awareness aren't noco's strong points.


----------



## noco (20 April 2014)

banco said:


> Irony and self awareness aren't noco's strong points.




When the comrades of the Green (the socialist left in the Labor Part) find it hard to win an argument it is in their DNA to attack the character of the man.

I am not surprised at your comment


----------



## sydboy007 (20 April 2014)

noco said:


> Sydboy was referring to corruption in politics on both sides of the major parties....The Royal Commission into union corruption is another issue and is completely divorced from the Liberal Party but may not exclude the Labor Party.




You may come to regret that statement.

I doubt anyone would have thought the current NSW ICAC proceedings would claim a Liberal state Premier and quite likely a Liberal Federal Assistant Treasurer.  If Sinodinos' actions are not referred to ASIC for further investigation into his inaction on meeting his legal responsibilities as a director, well that in itself is another form of corruption where the elite rarely suffer the consequences of their actions.

Start looking at business union deals and I wont be surprised if other stuff comes floating to the top of the pond that links back tot eh Liberal party.

I'm all for shinning a bright light into areas that seem to be rife with corruption.  Much easier to exterminate the roaches when you an see them, and hopefully we can clean things up and move on.

I just find your belief that someone left of centre is somehow more corrupt that those to the right quite strange, with no basis in reality.  Generally the most corrupt in any organising are at the top, the ones with the power to take advantage of their positions.  At the grass roots levels pretty much most of the members are good people.  To judge a whole group by the bad actions of a very small minority isn't particularly fair to those who've done no wrong.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 April 2014)

noco said:


> Sydboy was referring to corruption in politics on both sides of the major parties....The Royal Commission into union corruption is another issue and is completely divorced from the Liberal Party but may not exclude the Labor Party.




Syd made a very valid point about business/union deals and what gets unearthed in enquiries. 

The Painters and Dockers Union Royal Commission dragged up (pun intended) the bottom of the harbour tax schemes of the rich and powerful so who knows what the current union enquiry will reveal. 

Interesting (and nervous for some) times ahead.


----------



## IFocus (21 April 2014)

A damming article by Paul Sheehan of all people

Bottle of wine revealed Liberal Party was under the influence




> It’s not as if the Herald hasn’t been banging on for years about the pervasive influence-peddling inside the NSW Liberal Party, *with its fake branches, stacked preselections, abuse of process, factional goons and subculture of turning politics into profit*.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bottl...e-influence-20140420-zqwzr.html#ixzz2zTIzzYyp


----------



## Calliope (21 April 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> Generally the most corrupt in any organising are at the top, the ones with the power to take advantage of their positions.




Exactly. That is what the Royal Commission into* union* corruption is all about. If justice is served those at the top of the union hierachies will get their comeuppance. It may also expose those at the top of organisations like Theiss for aiding and abetting union corruption. It may also protect the workers from having their  funds being used on election campaigns for top union offiials.

I'm not surprised the Sirumpy is nervous.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 April 2014)

Calliope said:


> I'm not surprised the Sirumpy is nervous.




ROFL

What have I got to be nervous about ? I'm retired so the whole lot of them, business , unions , politicians can come down for all I care. I'm just realistic to know that corruption can exist anywhere, from a cop on the beat who protects brothels in return for favours up to the boardrooms and Cabinet Office. So there is no point just putting the spotlight on unions, the whole system has to been cleaned out regularly.


----------



## Calliope (21 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> ROFL
> 
> What have I got to be nervous about ? I'm retired so the whole lot of them, business , unions , politicians can come down for all I care. I'm just realistic to know that corruption can exist anywhere, from a cop on the beat who protects brothels in return for favours up to the boardrooms and Cabinet Office. So there is no point just putting the spotlight on unions, the whole system has to been cleaned out regularly.




:topic You can get your rump up off the floor Sirumpy. Perhaps you should start a thread about  "a cop on the beat who protects brothels", along with the one about "Corruption in the Greens".



> But that is not to claim that there are easy answers. The crimes ICAC deals with are difficult to prove to the demanding standards Australians rightly set; and exposure, whatever its deficiencies, is better than no remedy at all. *Moreover, power corrupts; and though the Coalition is far from rivalling the gangrene that permeates Labor, the dreadful price it is paying should reinforce its vigilance against the threat that is posed by the Nick Di Girolamos of this world.*
> 
> Yet vigilance cannot be enough. Ultimately, corruption is at its most dangerous when governments have large rents to distribute: lavish contracts for some; lucrative sinecures for others. Had Sydney Water been privately owned, Australian Water Holdings would have been more likely to compete on its merits, rather than through tainted gifts and extravagant donations. *Equally, were industrial relations regulated mainly by contract, rather than by government fiat, Julia Gillard and Bill Shorten would not have had a slew of powerful and well-paid jobs for their union cronies at the public’s expense.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-justice-delayed/story-e6frg9io-1226890652113


----------



## SirRumpole (21 April 2014)

Calliope said:


> :topic You can get your rump up off the floor Sirumpy. Perhaps you should start a thread about  "a cop on the beat who protects brothels", along with the one about "Corruption in the Greens".




No thanks. As you are too one eyed to accept that there is corruption in your beloved Liberal Party, I'll use this thread to help to educate you whenever possible.


----------



## Calliope (21 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> No thanks. As you are too one eyed to accept that there is corruption in your beloved Liberal Party, I'll use this thread to help to educate you whenever possible.




And you too one-eyed to accept that there is corruption in your beloved Greens Party. By "educate" I assume you mean "indocrinate." Fat chance.

By the way, didn't you assume the name of Rumpole because he had only one eye?


----------



## sydboy007 (21 April 2014)

Calliope said:


> And you too one-eyed to accept that there is corruption in your beloved Greens Party. By "educate" I assume you mean "indocrinate." Fat chance.
> 
> By the way, didn't you assume the name of Rumpole because he had only one eye?




I always had vision of Rumpole of the bailey, but maybe that's just because I always liked the under dog winning in the courts.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 April 2014)

NSW has always been a problem for both ALP and Liberals re corruption. 

As a long term investor I see no problems with these latest disclosures. Merely a blip in the trend.

Sydney is a very corrupt city, whether ALP or Lib.

Always has been, and probably always will. 

It is a matter of degree. 

So, high horse value judgements are fine, but useless in relation to NSW. 

Eddie Obeid, and MacDonald will get a tiny slap on the wrist and the judgements will be binned, and it will go on. Nothing to do with fairness.

NSW and Sydney in particular is very corrupt, I briefly sat watching it from the inside.

gg


----------



## banco (21 April 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> NSW has always been a problem for both ALP and Liberals re corruption.
> 
> As a long term investor I see no problems with these latest disclosures. Merely a blip in the trend.
> 
> ...




I take some solace from the fact that the various proceedings against MacDonald will likely bankrupt him.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 April 2014)

banco said:


> I take some solace from the fact that the various proceedings against MacDonald will likely bankrupt him.




You have to realise the money is what matters in NSW and Sydney.

Being bankrupt matters little.

Quality of life, mansion with a view, and access to up-market restaurants is more important than bankruptcy.

Some will go bankrupt, others won't. 

They will all live high on their corruption.

gg


----------



## trainspotter (22 April 2014)

> New South Wales Opposition Leader John Robertson has effectively admitted he should have reported a $3 million bribe offered to him when he was secretary of Unions NSW.
> 
> Mr Robertson told Lateline if he had his time over again he would have reported the offer - made to him by murdered businessman Michael McGurk - to authorities.
> 
> "If I found myself in those circumstance now obviously I would do something completely different. Hindsight is a wonderful thing," he told Lateline host Tony Jones




http://www.news.net/article/1210594?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=outbrainamplify

I believe that there is a lot more pus to be squeezed out of this boil


----------



## CanOz (22 April 2014)

trainspotter said:


> http://www.news.net/article/1210594?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=outbrainamplify
> 
> I believe that there is a lot more pus to be squeezed out of this boil




Ayy oh...c'mon....what a few million among Union buddies hey? Its not different than a bottle of plonk really?


----------



## sydboy007 (22 April 2014)

CanOz said:


> Ayy oh...c'mon....what a few million among Union buddies hey? Its not different than a bottle of plonk really?




Similar to price fixing or cartel like behaviour of companies.

Corruption is corruption no matter who's doing it.


----------



## IFocus (25 April 2014)

Liberal fundraiser with links to PM and Mike Baird called before Icac

John Caputo one of 30 witnesses to appear next week as concerns grow of further fallout from the corruption inquiry





> The former shire president and mayor of Warringah is an active party fundraiser and is well known to both the prime minister and the premier, sitting on the committee of the prime minister’s electorate conference in Warringah, and also Baird’s state electoral conference.



Also on the witness list for next week is the new federal Liberal member for Dobell, Karen McNamara, and prominent mining magnate Nathan Tinkler.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/25/liberal-fundraiser-links-to-pm-and-mike-baird-icac


----------



## SirRumpole (26 April 2014)

IFocus said:


> Also on the witness list for next week is the new federal Liberal member for Dobell, Karen McNamara, and prominent mining magnate Nathan Tinkler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting that they actually found Tinkler, I thought he had fled to country and gone underground in Singapore.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 April 2014)

*New ICAC enquiry to probe Liberal Part Donations
*

It's getting dirtier:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-28/new-icac-hearing-begins-liberal-party-nsw-eightbyfive/5414892


----------



## SirRumpole (2 May 2014)

Another NSW Liberal Minister bites the dust


New South Wales Police Minister Mike Gallacher will step aside from his position after being named in the latest Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) inquiry.

The ICAC has heard allegations that Mr Gallacher was involved in a plot to hide a developer's involvement in payments to an alleged Liberal Party slush fund.

The inquiry heard claims Mr Gallacher and former energy minister Chris Hartcher hatched a plan to hide donations from a development company controlled by mining magnate Nathan Tinkler to a business called Eightbyfive.

Eightbyfive was allegedly set up as a slush fund for prohibited political donors to secretly funnel money to MPs.

The inquiry has previously heard the alleged slush fund was set up by Mr Hartcher's staffer Tim Koelma.

The ICAC is probing allegations Mr Hartcher and two other state Liberal MPs, Chris Spence and Darren Webber, "corruptly solicited, received and concealed payments from various sources" in return for favours.

Today, the co-founder of development group Buildev, Darren Williams, stepped into the witness box where he was grilled about his role in payments made by Mr Tinkler's Hunter Valley horse stud Patinack Farm to Eightbyfive.

Counsel assisting Geoffrey Watson SC suggested to Mr Williams that Buildev wanted to influence Mr Hartcher, but used Patinack Farm to hide any attempts to do so.

"The idea was that if you could use a name like Patinack Farm it would hide the fact that Buildev was involved," Mr Watson said.

"I want to suggest this was a plan you worked up with two politicians."

He then suggested those politicians were Mr Hartcher and Mr Gallacher.

When Mr Williams replied "No", Mr Watson told him: "By the end of this... you are going to regret having given that answer."

The inquiry was then shown phone records showing extensive contact between Mr Hartcher and Mr Williams.

Mr Williams was unable to explain why they were speaking so often.

Test messages between Mr Gallacher, Mr Hartcher and Mr Williams have also been tendered to the ICAC, referring to a meeting with Mr Tinkler.

Mr Hartcher said he'd organised it in a private room so "it couldn't be overheard".

Mr Gallacher's barrister Arthur Moses SC objected to the allegations being sprung on him without notice.

The inquiry was told Mr Gallacher would have wanted to inform Premier Mike Baird if he was going to be accused of wrongdoing.

Mr Watson said new evidence had come to light in the past 24 hours that may require the public hearing to be adjourned so further investigations could be carried out.

ICAC has been told Mr Gallacher has given a sworn testimony to investigators.

The inquiry continues.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...-mike-gallagher-dragged-in-to-scandal/5425726

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every day , in every way, it's getting worse and worse for NSW Libs


----------



## basilio (2 May 2014)

Really can't understand how this IPAC commission has been allowed to continue.

Clearly they just don't understand exactly* what* is meant by corruption and *who *they are supposed to be chasing.  


______________________________________________________
_Definition of an honest politician.  Someone who when they are bought stays bought._


----------



## SirRumpole (2 May 2014)

basilio said:


> Really can't understand how this IPAC commission has been allowed to continue.
> 
> Clearly they just don't understand exactly* what* is meant by corruption and *who *they are supposed to be chasing.
> 
> ...




Why don't you tell us ?


----------



## Judd (2 May 2014)

basilio said:


> Really can't understand how this IPAC commission has been allowed to continue.
> 
> Clearly they just don't understand exactly* what* is meant by corruption and *who *they are supposed to be chasing.
> 
> ...




What does a financial advisory firm have to do with this?


----------



## basilio (2 May 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Why don't you tell us ?




On this Forum why does it need to be spelled out ? Only Labour and the unions are corrupt - or at least they are the only ones who should be chased and prosecuted.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 May 2014)

basilio said:


> On this Forum why does it need to be spelled out ? Only Labour and the unions are corrupt - or at least they are the only ones who should be chased and prosecuted.




<slaps forehead>

Of course, how could I have been so blind !


----------



## waterbottle (3 May 2014)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-02/police-minister-mike-gallagher-resigns-over-icac-probe/5425726



> New South Wales Police Minister Mike Gallacher has resigned after being named in the latest Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) inquiry.
> 
> NSW Premier Mike Baird accepted Mr Gallacher's resignation on Friday afternoon, saying it would constitute an "unacceptable distraction" for the Government.
> 
> ...




I especially liked how he resigned without even having to be accused of anything. For the good of the party! 

The ABC have done a terrific job of providing a map of the relationships of those being investigated (Just click on the link above and scroll down towards the end). It's interesting to see how intertwined the ALP and LNP really are.


----------



## IFocus (5 May 2014)

Money and Liberal politics..........how to buy your own treasurer





> Treasurer Joe Hockey is offering privileged access to a select group including business people and industry lobbyists in return for tens of thousands of dollars in donations to the Liberal Party via a secretive fund-raising body whose activities are not fully disclosed to election funding authorities.
> 
> The Independent Commission Against Corruption is probing Liberal fund-raising bodies such as the Millennium Forum and questioning their influence on political favours in NSW.
> 
> Mr Hockey offers access to one of the country's highest political offices in return for annual payments.






http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-offers-privileged-access-20140504-zr06v.html


----------



## sydboy007 (5 May 2014)

IFocus said:


> Money and Liberal politics..........how to buy your own treasurer
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-offers-privileged-access-20140504-zr06v.html




It disgusted me when Labor did this, and disgusts me when the L+NP do it too.

It should be outright illegal to host these kinds of soirres.  I don't think anyone believes that those attending and paying hundreds or thousands of dollars are doing it because they support the party.  They do it for access and the ability to influence key decision makers as much as they can.  That's not democracy but the beginnings of a plutocracy.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 May 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> It disgusted me when Labor did this, and disgusts me when the L+NP do it too.
> 
> It should be outright illegal to host these kinds of soirres.  I don't think anyone believes that those attending and paying hundreds or thousands of dollars are doing it because they support the party.  They do it for access and the ability to influence key decision makers as much as they can.  That's not democracy but the beginnings of a plutocracy.



*
Beginnings of a plutocracy* ? We have had one of those for years under various Liberal governments.

Why was Hockey so keen to suck up to the mining industry and say no changes will be made to the diesel fuel rebate?

Can't have Gina upset now can we ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...ves-to-assure-miners-over-fuel-rebate/5429482


----------



## sptrawler (5 May 2014)

sydboy007 said:


> It disgusted me when Labor did this, and disgusts me when the L+NP do it too.
> 
> It should be outright illegal to host these kinds of soirres.  I don't think anyone believes that those attending and paying hundreds or thousands of dollars are doing it because they support the party.  They do it for access and the ability to influence key decision makers as much as they can.  That's not democracy but the beginnings of a plutocracy.




+1 agree completely.
It is becoming obvious that not only do politicians feel they are above the law(eg their superannuation rules), they also must feel, they are above the laws of common decency.IMO
It starts at local council level and just pyramids up.
It appears to be a bit of a cess pit on all sides, the density increases the closer to the top.
When those in a position of enacting laws, are found to willfully break them, the book should be thrown at them.


----------



## sydboy007 (5 May 2014)

sptrawler said:


> +1 agree completely.
> It is becoming obvious that not only do politicians feel they are above the law(eg their superannuation rules), they also must feel, they are above the laws of common decency.IMO
> It starts at local council level and just pyramids up.
> It appears to be a bit of a cess pit on all sides, the density increases the closer to the top.
> When those in a position of enacting laws, are found to willfully break them, the book should be thrown at them.




it's infected the business world too.

_Don Nguyen, one of eight CBA financial planners banned by the Australian Securities and Investments Commission from providing financial advice until 2018, claims nobody at the bank ever said to him: “Don, this is too much, don’t do this.” _ 

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/bank...ing-scandal-20140504-zr4dp.html#ixzz30ncIlmKQ

I mean claiming you need to be told not to forge signatures or not to encourage elderly people to gear up in risky investments.  It's this attitude that's permeated through all levels of our society.

We should have ethics classes from Kindergarten all the way through to year 12.  Certainly serve a better purpose than religious studies.

Every TAFE / Uni degree should also have mandatory ethic components.  It wont get rid of the bad behaviour, but hopefully that niggling voice that quietly protests against certain actions might be a bit louder for the future generations.

It's about at the point where anything goes as long as you don't get caught, and then with soem good lawyers you probably wont serve any jail time.

Maybe our politicians should be sent to some ethic classes, then have to sign an annual ethics compliance statement to show they've behaved with integrity over the last 12 months.  Any breach to be met with serious fines, loss of all entitlements, and mandatory minimum jail sentences.  I think jail time will help to kep their thoughts on compliance.


----------



## Julia (5 May 2014)

IFocus said:


> Money and Liberal politics..........how to buy your own treasurer



So where does legitimate fund raising end and corruption begin?

Political parties have always carried out fund raising via social events.  If it's all transparent and "membership fees"/donations are recorded on some register it seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?

The alternative would be to ban all donations to political parties and have their publicity etc funded by the taxpayer.   I'm damned if I want to be any part of that.
Surely the problem lies in the undisclosed buying of influence rather than the publicly advertised events.


----------



## sydboy007 (5 May 2014)

Julia said:


> So where does legitimate fund raising end and corruption begin?
> 
> Political parties have always carried out fund raising via social events.  If it's all transparent and "membership fees"/donations are recorded on some register it seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?
> 
> ...




If it was say $20 and you could get to one of these functions and rub shoulders witht he pwer brokers, then fine.

But when the cost is out of reach for 80+% of the population, then is it really about democracy or influence peddling?

The fact is that we don't have equal access when there's a cost component to it.

Possibly increasing public funding to remove all political donations over $100 might work out cheaper than the current system where the rentier class have the access to corrupt the decision making process.  You don't get to over $120B in tax expenditures each year without some distorting policies being enacted.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 May 2014)

> . I'm damned if I want to be any part of that.




If you are not prepared to pay a small amount for democracy, you get what you deserve.

Politicians are supposed to serve all the people, not just those who donate to them.

Replace 'politician' with 'policeman' and ask if you feel the same. 

If someone gives money to a policeman it's called a bribe. Both politicians and policemen are public servants and should be funded by the taxpayer and no one else, even if that means some of your money goes to people you don't agree with.



> Surely the problem lies in the undisclosed buying of influence rather than the publicly advertised events.




How do you suggest that this be exposed ?


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2014)

This witch hunt has to stop its giving the Liberals a really bad name we all know that they are immune from corruption.


Icac: MP denies putting developer in touch with alleged slush fund



> A New South Wales Liberal MP has denied putting a property developer in touch with the alleged Liberal party slush fund at the centre of a corruption inquiry.
> 
> In a brief but colourful appearance at the Independent Commission Against Corruption (Icac), upper house MP Marie Ficarra referred to her miniature schnauzer’s medical problems, a trip to the Cumberland state forest to buy a particular plant and, eventually, the matters at hand. Ficarra insisted she told property developer Tony Merhi in a March 2011 meeting that as a property developer, he was banned from donating to the party.
> 
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ng-developer-in-touch-with-alleged-slush-fund


----------



## SirRumpole (23 June 2014)

They are at it again...

*Queensland LNP donor Karreman Quarries escapes prosecution for illegal quarrying after Deputy Premier orders legislation change*



> A big donor to the ruling Liberal National Party in Queensland has escaped prosecution for illegal quarrying because of a last-minute change to legislation ordered by the state's Deputy Premier.
> 
> Karreman Quarries was this month facing legal action by the Department of Natural Resources and Mines over unlawful extraction of sand and gravel from the Upper Brisbane River when an amendment, slipped unnoticed into a package of reforms to the Water Act, retrospectively legalised its activities.
> 
> ...




More at

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-...pes-prosecution-for-illegal-quarrying/5543896


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## Calliope (23 June 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> They are at it again...
> 
> Queensland LNP donor Karreman Quarries escapes prosecution for illegal quarrying after Deputy Premier orders legislation change




Industry...   

Geen Tape...:bad:


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## Julia (23 June 2014)

Calliope said:


> Industry...
> 
> Geen Tape...:bad:



That seems a very simplistic summary, Calliope.
Further comment is on the Qld Politics thread.


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## chiff (24 June 2014)

I notice that the application to take over 70000 hectares of forest off the World Heritage list was refused yesterday.
At least the government kept faith with their donors and made the application.One hopes this will be the end of it.


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## Knobby22 (24 June 2014)

Did anyone watch 4 Corners last night about the attempted corruption in the NSW Labor and Liberal parties and ICAC and how it spread to Queensland and especially Federally? 
Though the Obeids and associates didn't succeed they managed to corrupt quite a few pollies and Arfur (sic) Sinodinus comes out looking particularly poor. The Libs have been sacking people right and left which is good for the party.

I agree with the conclusion that ICAC and Faulkner made. We really should change our Federal laws for donations. All donations should be declared as they occur. As simple as that.  

If I ever run into Arfur I will call him by that name as it alludes to Arfur in the show Minder.


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## sydboy007 (24 June 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Did anyone watch 4 Corners last night about the attempted corruption in the NSW Labor and Liberal parties and ICAC and how it spread to Queensland and especially Federally?
> Though the Obeids and associates didn't succeed they managed to corrupt quite a few pollies and Arfur (sic) Sinodinus comes out looking particularly poor. The Libs have been sacking people right and left which is good for the party.
> 
> I agree with the conclusion that ICAC and Faulkner made. We really should change our Federal laws for donations. All donations should be declared as they occur. As simple as that.
> ...






Considering everything is recorded electronically providing monthly reports on ALL donations of any value shouldn't be particularly onerous for political parties.

Possibly havng some form of duty of care for senior members of the party, along the lines directors responsibilities and signing a legal statement that their accounts are in order and some mandatory jail time if caught out. Should serve to focus their attention


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## boofhead (24 June 2014)

I found the Four Corners story interesting. Arthur didn't look too good. As the reporter hounding him outside said - too many cannot remember, cannot recollect etc.

I didn't have much time for Heffernan before but my respect for him has grown a lot.

Each new method to add transparency will see a new way being created to hide the corruption.


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## SirRumpole (12 August 2014)

ICAC: Former Liberals Tim Owen and Andrew Cornwell resign from Parliament after corruption hearings



> Two former New South Wales Government MPs have resigned from Parliament hours after one admitted lying to the state's corruption commission.
> 
> The resignations of Newcastle MP Tim Owen and Charlestown MP Andrew Cornwell follow their admissions they accepted money from developers, who are not allowed to make political donations under NSW electoral laws.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-12/icac-former-liberal-mp-admits-giving-false-evidence/5664746


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## banco (12 August 2014)

Smartest thing Nathen Rees ever did was ban donations from developers.  He set a time bomb for NSW Liberals.


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## SirRumpole (12 August 2014)

banco said:


> Smartest thing Nathen Rees ever did was ban donations from developers.  He set a time bomb for NSW Liberals.




As if Labor never took donations from developers


However, all credit to Nathan Rees. He is one of the few in the NSW Labor party who retains some credibility and decency.


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## IFocus (12 August 2014)

The Liberals can be bought really cheaply..............any one else notice this?


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## banco (12 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> As if Labor never took donations from developers
> 
> 
> However, all credit to Nathan Rees. He is one of the few in the NSW Labor party who retains some credibility and decency.




Noone has more contempt for the NSW Labor than me.  The NSW Labor right should have been put up against a wall and shot years ago.

But the banning of donations from property developers has led to maybe a dozen liberal party identities in serious trouble with ICAC.  I'd say for something noone paid attention to when it was first introduced the ban has had a huge payoff for labor and nsw.


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> The Liberals can be bought really cheaply..............any one else notice this?




Too true IF.

They should be punished as heavily though. 

$10,000 or $30m filched by a politician for corrupt purposes is a huge crime against all citizens.

gg


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## awg (13 August 2014)

As I mentioned previously, Hunter has its face spat in by every political party.

Its got worse...Jodi McKay was executed by her own party by corrupt insiders (Tripodi)
imo this was purely corrupt $ action


They have decided to chop the rail line, imo for pure commercial interest, the public good is so far a distant second it doesnt even rate. I cant even describe the abortion will be made of this

Mr brown-paper-bag-man owns property in the affected area worth tens of millions, and is using all means to increase the value of his assets...not that much different to Eddie Obeid imo


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## SirRumpole (14 August 2014)

ICAC: Swansea MP Garry Edwards stands aside from Liberal Party after being implicated in illegal Hunter campaign funding





> Garry Edwards, the latest NSW Government MP to be implicated in illegal campaign funding in the Hunter region, says he will stand aside from the parliamentary Liberal Party and sit on the cross bench.
> 
> Mr Edwards made the announcement after Newcastle Lord Mayor Jeff McCloy told the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) inquiry he gave Mr Edwards about $1,500 cash and an envelope of cash for his campaign before the last election.
> 
> ...


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## boofhead (14 August 2014)

The except of a Liberal party letter relating to the changes in NSW (signed by Sinodinos) shown on 7:30 looked like a mindset of the Labor introduced changes are purely about damaging the Liberal party. Hopefully it helps weed out a majority of the politicians (the ICAC inquest) that are dirty in relation to property developers etc.


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## IFocus (12 September 2014)

Mean while back at the ranch


ICAC: Liberal senator Arthur Sinodinos set to front NSW anti-corruption hearing



> Influential Liberal Party senator Arthur Sinodinos is due to front an anti-corruption hearing in Sydney again today as part of an ongoing investigation into allegations of business donations and political favours.
> 
> Senator Sinodinos stood aside from his role as the assistant treasurer in March, saying he did not want the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) probe to be a "distraction" for the Federal Government.
> 
> ...





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-...front-the-nsw-anti-corruption-hearing/5738058


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## SirRumpole (12 September 2014)

ICAC: Port Stephens MP Craig Baumann stands aside after admissions on developer donations



> Craig Baumann has become the 10th Liberal parliamentarian to go to the crossbench or resign from the party in NSW as a result of an inquiry into alleged illegal donations.
> 
> Earlier today, the Member for Port Stephens admitted to the Independent Commission Against Corruption in Sydney that he had taken secret donations from developers during his first tilt at state politics in 2007 and written sham invoices to cover up the payments.
> 
> ...


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## SirRumpole (8 August 2017)

Links between the Victorian Opposition leader and alleged Mafia members.

Doesn't look good for that Guy, as secret recordings cast doubt on his public comments.

*Matthew Guy's claims about dinner with alleged Mafia boss called into question by secret tapes*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-08/matthew-guy-alleged-mafia-head-dinner-phone-call/8785700


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## Gringotts Bank (8 August 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Links between the Victorian Opposition leader and alleged Mafia members.




Just pathetic.  Who on earth would agree to such a meeting with an alleged mob boss and his cousins?  Who does he think he is?

And then there's the recorded phone calls.  Looks like a set up.


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## Tisme (9 August 2017)

Looks like the Paul Pissale corruption probe is uncovering quite a few big names across political brands reaching from local govt up to the federal members. Speaker has put a gag on publishing.


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## basilio (10 August 2017)

The statement that the dinner with "alleged-mafia-leaders -who -also-financed -the -Liberal -Party" was public and not secretive doesn't look good when the full story is given.

I wonder what the commercial medias take would be if this was a Labour Leader ?

*Matthew Guy's claims about dinner with alleged Mafia boss called into question by secret tapes*
Four Corners
By Nick McKenzie, Richard Baker and state political reporter Richard Willingham
Updated Tue at 7:42pm

Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.

*Video:* Barrie Macmillan outlines how he set up the dinner meeting earlier this year. (ABC News) 
*Related Story:* Victorian Opposition Leader secretly dined with alleged Mafia head Madafferi
*Related Story:* Vic Opposition Leader 'didn't know' he would be dining with alleged Mafia head
*Related Story:* Matthew Guy refers himself to anti-corruption commission
 *Map: * Melbourne 3000
Secretly recorded phone conversations call into question claims by Opposition Leader Matthew Guy that he had no idea he was meeting Melbourne's alleged Mafia boss at a lobster restaurant earlier this year.

*Key points:*

Liberal Party organiser says in call he personally briefed Mr Guy's office that Tony Madaferri would be at dinner
Call transcripts suggest dinner was a secretive affair, despite Mr Guy's claim
Mr Guy says he will refer himself to Victoria's anti-corruption commission


Transcripts of the calls, obtained by Fairfax Media and Four Corners, also suggest that the Lobster Cave dinner attended by alleged Mafia boss Tony Madafferi was a secretive affair, not a semi-public function as depicted by Mr Guy.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-08/matthew-guy-alleged-mafia-head-dinner-phone-call/8785700


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## SirRumpole (20 June 2019)

Josh Frydenburg tried to keep secret a deal he had with Angus Taylor to water down regulations regarding grassland protection in which Taylor had an interest.

Angus Taylor is smelling more and more after the water buy backs and now this revelation.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...vironmental-rule-changes-could-be-kept-secret


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## IFocus (20 June 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Josh Frydenburg tried to keep secret a deal he had with Angus Taylor to water down regulations regarding grassland protection in which Taylor had an interest.
> 
> Angus Taylor is smelling more and more after the water buy backs and now this revelation.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/austral...vironmental-rule-changes-could-be-kept-secret




There has been a disquiet about Taylor for awhile this just adds to the pile Liberals have been lucky Labor didn't get up as sure as hell they would have gone after him and a few others.

It will be interesting how the Prime Minister for good news and our best mate will swish this one away.


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## orr (14 March 2020)

I'll be back here shortly with more;
For those wanting to get up to speed *'Oil Under Troubled Water'* Bernard Collaery...


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## orr (14 September 2020)

The following is a fun filled 20 odd minute romp... with a 'kicker'.
& this travesty is titled deputy Premier:


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## orr (5 October 2020)

Nothing to see here at the moment;
Over paying ten times the value in a dodgy land purchase to a Liberal party donor, Only $30mill of public money... Liberal Standard Operating Procedure...
Oh and then there's Tudge...

Federal ICAC anyone???
 We'll need to biuild more prisons


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## IFocus (5 October 2020)

orr said:


> Nothing to see here at the moment;
> Over paying ten times the value in a dodgy land purchase to a Liberal party donor, Only $30mill of public money... Liberal Standard Operating Procedure...
> Oh and then there's Tudge...
> 
> ...





I look forward to watching Fox after dark lay into them.


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## orr (8 October 2020)

IFocus said:


> I look forward to watching Fox after dark lay into them.



Don't hold back on the details Focus I need you as the filter here. I suffer terribly from the 'gag reflex' in regard to the After Dark crew; in that the whole production has to be a gag ... right? If it's not, it's enough to make me spew.
Since my last post there's been some interesting going on's at the NSW ICAC. A lot of shape shifting and prompted re-remembering and hurried instructed shredding.... more Liberal Party standard operating procedure.


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## orr (12 October 2020)

Ohhh ...It's all almost to good. 
All that hurried shredding! who would have guessed that so much would have been the love titterings between Berris Hobgoblin and a dodgy  shifty shortly to charged numb-scull and Liberal Party Member... Ahh same old same old...

Federal ICAC  Aloha Schmo??? We can all see why you want it not to be so.... It would be very quickly _Au revoir_ Schmo....but not quick enough.


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## moXJO (12 October 2020)

So in the end they went the way of the Labor party corruption. Its a shame because Gladys was doing a decent job. Factions have been after her for a while though.
Bet one of them gleefully tossed her in.


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## SirRumpole (27 November 2020)

Is favourable funding to your mates corruption ?

I'm not interested in the "everyone does it" answer, just the principle.









						NSW Premier defends $250m grants scheme to Coalition seats as 'not illegal'
					

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian denies any wrongdoing in relation to the Government's $250 million grants program which allocated more money to local councils in Coalition-held seats, saying all governments engage in election spending to "curry favour".




					www.abc.net.au


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## SirRumpole (27 November 2020)

Snouts in the trough again.

Libs in WA take the taxpayers for a ride.









						Inquiry finds former Liberal MPs spent taxpayer dollars on strippers, lavish dinners and 'sham' job for lover
					

WA's corruption watchdog claims Brian Ellis and Nigel Hallett engaged in serious misconduct by using electorate allowances for personal lifestyle expenses, and says Mr Hallett also employed an "intimate" friend.




					www.abc.net.au


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## basilio (27 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Snouts in the trough again.
> 
> Libs in WA take the taxpayers for a ride.
> 
> ...




It's been  a long story now but the abuse of public funds is pretty ripe.
Putting lovers on  the payroll for no work, spending thousands of dollars on strip clubs using electoral allowances.

Will be interesting to see the outcome and if in fact there are some legal sanctions applied.


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## basilio (27 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Is favourable funding to your mates corruption ?
> 
> I'm not interested in the "everyone does it" answer, just the principle.
> 
> ...




Nah.. It's just how we do business aint it


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## sptrawler (27 November 2020)

IFocus said:


> SP you should follow up there is not only backpay back for wrongful payments but also compensation, good luck hope you have a win.





SirRumpole said:


> Is favourable funding to your mates corruption ?
> 
> I'm not interested in the "everyone does it" answer, just the principle.
> 
> ...



Yes a couple of weeks ago there was an article in the paper about the W.A government and Kerry Stokes Westrack training complex in Collie. I'm on a phone so can't link it.
It is wrong, they all do it, but that doesn't make it acceptable. IMO
Money should be spent where it is needed, not where it has the most political clout.


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## SirRumpole (4 January 2021)

Prominent Liberal Party donor red flagged by ASIO as security risk.

Looks like Dastyari might have company in the cold hard world outside Parliament.









						ASIO red-flags Liberal Party donor 'Haha' Liu as a national security risk
					

A Melbourne-based Chinese businessman who has aligned himself to prominent Liberal Party MPs is facing deportation after being assessed by ASIO as a national security risk, an ABC investigation can reveal.




					www.abc.net.au


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## sptrawler (28 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes a couple of weeks ago there was an article in the paper about the W.A government and Kerry Stokes Westrack training complex in Collie. I'm on a phone so can't link it.
> It is wrong, they all do it, but that doesn't make it acceptable. IMO
> Money should be spent where it is needed, not where it has the most political clout.



@SirRumpole just another example to show it isn't all one sided, no point in starting another thread over it, this one should just be titled corruption in politics. This land is directly opposite Perth's new football stadium on the other side of the river.
I wonder why the Government doesn't just use Western Power to de commission the switchyard, Power System Control is only a couple of hundred meters down the road, they would have land there to put in a sub station.








						McGowan defends $1 price tag for East Perth power station despite Landgate analysis
					

Works at the derelict site could begin as early as next year but details of the agreement between the government and billionaires Kerry Stokes and Andrew Forrest remain shrouded in secrecy.




					www.watoday.com.au
				



From the article:
_Premier Mark McGowan has defended a controversial deal with two of the state’s wealthiest businessmen that could see the East Perth power station land sold for just $1.

Works at the derelict site could begin as early as next year but details of negotiations between the government and billionaires Kerry Stokes and Andrew Forrest remain shrouded in secrecy.

However, the latest unimproved value assessment by the government’s land authority, Landgate, suggested three of the four blocks within the precinct were worth a combined $26 million.

While unimproved land values are used for tax purposes only and don’t take into account contamination or improvement works, they give an indication of what the land would be expected to sell for in its current condition.

Environment Minister Stephen Dawson, who represents lands minister Ben Wyatt in the upper house, revealed under questioning from the opposition the four lots that made up the project precinct were worth $1, according to a valuation commissioned by the government._


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## SirRumpole (28 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> @SirRumpole just another example to show it isn't all one sided, no point in starting another thread over it, this one should just be titled corruption in politics. This land is directly opposite Perth's new football stadium on the other side of the river.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Once they get into power all politicians think they can do what they want. I believe that site is heavily polluted and needs cleaning up. If Twiggy is willing to do that , then maybe that's a fair deal.


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## sptrawler (28 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Once they get into power all politicians think they can do what they want. I believe that site is heavily polluted and needs cleaning up. If Twiggy is willing to do that , then maybe that's a fair deal.



Why can't the Government clean it up and get heaps more for it? 8hectares on the river, in the centre of Perth, I mean really it isn't as though the Government still doesn't have a workforce or public works etc. The Government went to the polls with creating jobs, not privatising Western Power, now they want the private sector to relocate a switchyard when the Government and western power have land right next door. It does my head in, like I say, they are all the same just wear a different hat.


----------



## IFocus (28 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Why can't the Government clean it up and get heaps more for it? 8hectares on the river, in the centre of Perth, I mean really it isn't as though the Government still doesn't have a workforce or public works etc. The Government went to the polls with creating jobs, not privatising Western Power, now they want the private sector to relocate a switchyard when the Government and western power have land right next door. It does my head in, like I say, they are all the same just wear a different hat.





The risk is the issue, that site was beyond toxic private enterprise can do a shonky coverup suspect no politician would want to get caught.


----------

