# Time to throw in the towel with Intra-day Trading



## CanOz (25 May 2013)

After a solid attempt at Intra-day trading I'm going on the record as officially throwing in the towel. 

The reasons are all the ones you've all seen on here before, plus a few new ones likely....

The number one reason however, is the bottom line....I cannot produce consistent profits from Intra-day trading. I had good days but they were few and far between. Even after focusing on one primary market, one setup, i realize this is just not for me.

I'm already in the middle of putting together plan to trade futures EOD, starting with the e-minis (no index futures). I'll paper trade my ideas for a while first though to gain confidence. I still have gained an enormous amount of knowledge on the futures markets which will be indispensable trading longer time frames. I'll also start to learn calendar spreading, first in the grains. 

My losses for the month, while not devastating were not breakeven, my goal for the month. At a little over 2k it was enough for me to feel uncomfortable. Rather than lose a 50k account, I'd rather admit now what has become clearly obvious to me.

I hope new people starting out with a desire to be an intra-day trader, will first consider going with a Prop Firm in order to make use of the resources and experience offered there. To do this from home under one's own guidance is extremely difficult. While likely not totally impossible, as pointed out many times recently, the drag on profitability by costs and taxes will make this very close to impossible for almost all that try. I truly believe the most consistent profits made in this industry (other than Prop) are made by those marketing the software, indicators, systems and advice....and the brokers.

I have the time and knowledge to put together and test a solid method for trading the markets with a longer term view in mind. This, while still a daunting task, should be achievable.

I can also now use my time study and gain a qualification in Technical Analysis, something I've always wanted to do, as Waza has.

Good luck to all those still trying to make it, Boofis, Havianna, etc...

If there is anything i can ever do to help your journey, please don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## systematic (25 May 2013)

Thanks for sharing so candidly, CanOz.  For those not familiar with your journey, such as myself, it'd be great to read a brief history of what your intraday trading experience consisted of (e.g how long did you give it a go for, what were your goals etc).

I personally felt similarly about shorter term strategies in general some years ago, and decided on longer term for me.  Overcoming costs and (extra tax) requires quite a bump in nominal return just to make up the difference, at least the way I look at things; and that's quite apart from time considerations.  It's never made sense to me to be busier at trading unless it resulted in a suitable increase in the bottom line returns.  Obviously some do achieve it, but it wasn't for me.


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## waza1960 (25 May 2013)

Canoz good on you for giving it a go and having the courage to admit when your not suited to a particular trading methodology.
  Doesn't mean that there are not lots of other ways you can do well in the markets.
  I've always admired your market knowledge and passion for trading and willingness to help others.
  I believe all those dreamers out there who want to be overnight successful traders would be well placed to
 check out your posts and in particular this thread to see that its extremely hard discretionary trading short term and making a living from it.


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## white_goodman (25 May 2013)

most people shouldnt be trading flat price intraday.. its jsut too hard..

dont give up, id recommend looking into curve related stuff... plenty of good papers on the exchange websites


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## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2013)

Canoz, you tried everyone else's suggestions but mine.  Isn't that the truth?  You got directed away from the psychological aspects, as everyone does.  Without going into the 'hows' and 'whys', successful people such as TH always downplay the psychological.

Do this for a month, change nothing in your method, and try again.  Risk another 2K.  You can even get him to do a personalized tape for you.

http://hypnotictapes.com/transcript...MARKET_POTENTIAL_PROSPERITY_STOCK_TRADE.shtml


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## boofis (25 May 2013)

waza1960 said:


> Canoz good on you for giving it a go and having the courage to admit when your not suited to a particular trading methodology.
> Doesn't mean that there are not lots of other ways you can do well in the markets.
> I've always admired your market knowledge and passion for trading and willingness to help others.
> I believe all those dreamers out there who want to be overnight successful traders would be well placed to
> check out your posts and in particular this thread to see that its extremely hard discretionary trading short term and making a living from it.




+1

Well said Waza.


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## CanOz (25 May 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Canoz, you tried everyone else's suggestions but mine.  Isn't that the truth?  You got directed away from the psychological aspects, as everyone does.  Without going into the 'hows' and 'whys', successful people such as TH always downplay the psychological.
> 
> Do this for a month, change nothing in your method, and try again.  Risk another 2K.  You can even get him to do a personalized tape for you.
> 
> http://hypnotictapes.com/transcript...MARKET_POTENTIAL_PROSPERITY_STOCK_TRADE.shtml




Thanks GB, i have spent time with a trading coach. I'm all for positive aspirations etc., but what has it done for you?

CanOz


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## beachlife (25 May 2013)

Can I ask what market you traded, what time frame your charts were, what your entry, exit & position size criteria were?


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## CanOz (25 May 2013)

white_goodman said:


> most people shouldnt be trading flat price intraday.. its jsut too hard..
> 
> dont give up, id recommend looking into curve related stuff... plenty of good papers on the exchange websites




Thanks Whitey....yeah, i got some stuff from the CME site to consider. Given the fact that the yield curve must be changing....if not already then soon, this should be an area that would offer plays for a while yeah? Has this always been a play that the Prop Firms used?

CanOz


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## CanOz (25 May 2013)

beachlife said:


> Can I ask what market you traded, what time frame your charts were, what your entry, exit & position size criteria were?





Well Beach, over the course of a the last 18 months i sim traded almost every Asian equity index, the DAX, EuroStoxx50, FTSE 100, and then the last 6 months were almost all Gold and Crude. I tend to like the thinner markets, they held my attention longer. 

I use market profile (TPOs), and VWAPs for structure and levels. Then an entry chart usually 150 tick depending on the session and the liquidity.

I used a Depth of Market that was a custom tool, the Jigsaw DOM. I would only risk 1% of capital on each trade.

More recently i just focused on Gold and the stop runs occurring at various levels.

CanOz


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## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> Thanks GB, i have spent time with a trading coach. I'm all for positive aspirations etc., but what has it done for you?
> 
> CanOz




What is does is make me do things in a way I perceive a top trader would.  So whether I'm looking at the depth, the chart, deciding when to buy/sell... I am doing it as if playing an actor's part.  eg.  "Would my actor (the top trader) sell now?"  "No he'd look at a different time frame for conformation". Or... "Yes, he'd be out immediately - sell now".  I become a different person, literally.  

If you don't like the idea, try this quick experiment instead.

Look at any chart and decide what Canoz  would do, buy/sell/wait.

Now look at it and act the part of G Soros billionaire speculator.  Get right into the part.  Now what am I (Soros)  going to do?  Notice how it's different/  So what changed?


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## skyQuake (25 May 2013)

Intra trading on futs and fx is like a shark tank.

Sometimes everyone can get a feast when a whale flounders (eg Japan past few days)


Come over and waddle in the equities kiddie pool


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## tech/a (25 May 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> What is does is make me do things in a way I perceive a top trader would.  So whether I'm looking at the depth, the chart, deciding when to buy/sell... I am doing it as if playing an actor's part.  eg.  "Would my actor (the top trader) sell now?"  "No he'd look at a different time frame for conformation". Or... "Yes, he'd be out immediately - sell now".  I become a different person, literally.
> 
> If you don't like the idea, try this quick experiment instead.
> 
> ...




How on earth do you know what anyone else would do in a given situation
Let alone Soros!!


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## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2013)

tech/a said:


> How on earth do you know what anyone else would do in a given situation
> Let alone Soros!!




Method acting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting


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## cbc (25 May 2013)

Hmmmmmm

Sounds like u need to place a few more mystery trades,  like the one u forgot u had


Buy, hold, forget?


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## beachlife (25 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> Well Beach, over the course of a the last 18 months i sim traded almost every Asian equity index, the DAX, EuroStoxx50, FTSE 100, and then the last 6 months were almost all Gold and Crude. I tend to like the thinner markets, they held my attention longer.
> 
> I use market profile (TPOs), and VWAPs for structure and levels. Then an entry chart usually 150 tick depending on the session and the liquidity.
> 
> ...




Thanks I just wanted to ask before I suggested something in case you had already tried it.  I was trying intra day on a 1 min chart and got nowhere.  I now use a 2min chart, trading just the morning session of just 1 market and while early days I am doing better.  I dont use DOM and I dont use a set I number of points, just a moving average and a trailing stop.  Once I reach a set profit I stop.  I am still testing so cant swear by it yet.  So IF you get tempted to have another go, perhaps try a larger time frame and focus on just 1 market, and work out when the good moves happen on that market.  I find the morning sessions produce the best moves and stop by lunch time no matter what.  Good luck what ever you decide.


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## skyQuake (25 May 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Method acting.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting




How does that help? Are you trying to create a confident trader character and then act as how you would imagine him to act?
eg Soros, Livermore etc?


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## Gringotts Bank (25 May 2013)

skyQuake said:


> How does that help? Are you trying to create a confident trader character and then act as how you would imagine him to act?
> eg Soros, Livermore etc?




yes, exactly.

I don't throw my knowledge or information out the window, but I apply my character to the information in order to see how it would perceive things.


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## kid hustlr (26 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> *
> I hope new people starting out with a desire to be an intra-day trader, will first consider going with a Prop Firm in order to make use of the resources and experience offered there. To do this from home under one's own guidance is extremely difficult. While likely not totally impossible, as pointed out many times recently, the drag on profitability by costs and taxes will make this very close to impossible for almost all that try. I truly believe the most consistent profits made in this industry (other than Prop) are made by those marketing the software, indicators, systems and advice....and the brokers.*




Based on my limited knowledge I agree with this.

Can I must say I'm surprised you're kicking it in though. I mean you know how hard this game is and despite all the preparation work you have done you have only been trading live 1 month. What % of guys do you think make money in their first month live? I wonder if you're selling yourself a little short.


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## tech/a (26 May 2013)

Can

I may be wrong but are you finding that your being whipsawed? 
You just don't seem to be quick enough.
Suffering by death of a thousand cuts?
Suffering analysis paralysis?

I've been there.
This is what I did.

(1) Stripped it back to raw basics.
(2) Widened my timeframe to cut back noise 3 min minimum
This doesn't mean that an obvious impulse move within my 3 minute timeframe can't and won't be taken.
(3) Widened my stop so I don't get involved in hunting --- as often.
(4) Move my stop to B/E as soon as possible ----- then and only then widen timeframe for the trade
IE select an obvious price target which is the most likely and furthest away.

Became a lot less stressful and profitable (4) is in my view a valuable weapon.

Maybe this will be helpful.

Don't let it beat you!


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## CanOz (26 May 2013)

tech/a said:


> Can
> 
> I may be wrong but are you finding that your being whipsawed?
> You just don't seem to be quick enough.
> ...




Thanks Tech, i really appreciate the advice, i certainly am not dismissing the advice either. 

However, I only listed the main reason for not continuing, obviously there are others, one of which is being able to spend more time on some other projects. So changing time frame wins out on several fronts at the moment. Perhaps when we move back to civilization I'll give it another crack.

Thanks as well to those that have sent me emails or PMs, all the advice is greatly appreciated!

CanOz


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## ThingyMajiggy (26 May 2013)

What a pity Can, know the feeling though. I'm a little in the same boat, would love to be a TH or Tech like genius at this and just know what I'm doing wrong(other than funding and internet stopping me!) and be able to nail it but it just isn't happening and it comes to the point where you have to ask yourself if it's worth it to keep on going, or try something else. 

Prop definitely is the best chance but even then a lot of the prop guys(especially new ones) aren't making any profits either, just kind of sucks when you've put in a **** load of effort since 2007/08ish and have nothing to show for it, but that's the way it goes. 

Hope you find better profits with your new style and adventure  All the best, keep us informed!


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## skc (26 May 2013)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> What a pity Can, know the feeling though. I'm a little in the same boat, would love to be a TH or Tech like genius at this and just know what I'm doing wrong(other than funding and internet stopping me!) and be able to nail it but it just isn't happening and it comes to the point where you have to ask yourself if it's worth it to keep on going, or try something else.
> 
> Prop definitely is the best chance but even then a lot of the prop guys(especially new ones) aren't making any profits either




Yes. Don't under-estimate how frequently good/profitable traders go through losing or flat periods. You can reduce these by trading more frequently, trading more markets and trading more strategies. But you can't avoid them. 

CanOz, if you are trading just one market, one set up, as a beginner for only 2 months... I don't think you can conclude either way. 



skyQuake said:


> Come over and waddle in the equities kiddie pool




Lol but so true.


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## Trembling Hand (27 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> However, I only listed the main reason for not continuing, obviously there are others,




The wife got sick of the bad moods didn't she...

esok:


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## CanOz (27 May 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> The wife got sick of the bad moods didn't she...
> 
> esok:




...i think it was more me that was sick of my moods than her....


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## Trembling Hand (28 May 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Canoz, you tried everyone else's suggestions but mine.  Isn't that the truth?  You got directed away from the psychological aspects, as everyone does.  Without going into the 'hows' and 'whys', successful people such as TH always downplay the psychological.
> 
> Do this for a month, change nothing in your method, and try again.  Risk another 2K.  You can even get him to do a personalized tape for you.
> 
> http://hypnotictapes.com/transcript...MARKET_POTENTIAL_PROSPERITY_STOCK_TRADE.shtml




Was goimng to let this slide but...

Actually Can didn't try my approach. Not by about 4 years worth pain and persistence. So sorry nothing to learn from this either way.


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## CanOz (28 May 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Was going to let this slide but...
> 
> Actually Can didn't try my approach. Not by about 4 years worth of pain and persistence. So sorry nothing to learn from this either way.




Yeah, and there lies the reason you get all the respect. Its not for big days where you beat your daily best, its for the persistence through all that pain, while not having any other income....anyone here that has been through that for even a short period of time will give you the respect because you are still in the game, not because of your ROI...

CanOz


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## Gringotts Bank (28 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> Yeah, and there lies the reason you get all the respect. Its not for big days where you beat your daily best, its for the persistence through all that pain, while not having any other income....anyone here that has been through that for even a short period of time will give you the respect because you are still in the game, not because of your ROI...
> 
> CanOz




A while back, a suggestion was made by TH to use bar replay on fast-forward and make thousands of trades in the space of a week.  Combined with my idea, I would have thought this was the perfect training....and quick.  How did you go with that exercise?


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## notting (28 May 2013)

I think it's a good decision. 
it's also a courageous thing to open up about and act on. 
Cool!

Bottom line is happiness. 

That's what we want.  That's why we want money.  If you had all the money in the world I doubt youd be choosing to sit in front of a screen all day and achieve what we do!

If you spending your entire days and nights doing something that is just taxing you and making you unhappy then your actually risking degenerating your mental health as well as not getting very far financially.

It shouldn't be thought of as a waist of time.  The experience can make you sharper and wiser and help you in other areas of life like cutting loses in other areas sooner than you would have when you see issues that could spiral out of control.  

The market has a serious ability to turn you bipolar if you sit their watching it and playing it all day.

With regards to intuition, method acting and stepping out of yourself and so on.  That stuff is all  blocked when we are constantly attending to what is going on via our 5 senses.  For that you need to able to shut down and go inward and not be swept up in the momentum of what is seeming to go on out there now.  Intraday trading is an environment that is almost the worst possible for that to be developed.  It captivates our attention in a way that keeps the rest shut down!  So unless you have already developed it then you will not be able to use it effectively whilst trading.
Ive failed at manny things in life that oddly helped me in completely different things later on.  I even feel later on, that, 'thank god  I did not succeed with that ambition as it would have stopped me getting all this!'  Like the woman of your dreams which no money could every give you what she gave and gives !  And certainly wasn't discovered in the high end of town!

I never learnt much from my successes, you kind of just swallow them and open your mouth for he next one!


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## CanOz (28 May 2013)

Gringotts Bank said:


> A while back, a suggestion was made by TH to use bar replay on fast-forward and make thousands of trades in the space of a week.  Combined with my idea, I would have thought this was the perfect training....and quick.  How did you go with that exercise?




Yup, I've pretty wore out the market replay function GB...

Everyone can put all the remedies they want, and i and others appreciate it I'm sure. I'm just not willing to persist with this anymore. This won't change until my personal circumstances and location change.

CanOz


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## Vixs (28 May 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> The wife got sick of the bad moods didn't she...
> 
> esok:




There's no doubt that having the pressure/support of another person can have an impact on your state of mind.

I've done some stupid things with the little money I had to spare over the last few years but my Mrs still always has the same thing to say: "It's just money. I trust you."

If I had her telling me "Well of course you lost it you idiot, I can't go on a holiday but you can blow thousands in a week? Bastard." It would be a very different attitude I had towards giving it a run in the future haha.


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## havaiana (28 May 2013)

Much respect for your decision Canoz. This is one of the most competitive businesses in the world, few realise the sacrifices that have to be made to put in the time/energy/money to become successful. I hope i know when to call it quits if the need arises, i doubt it


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