# The Gonski Report



## sptrawler (16 February 2013)

Well what is wrong with Australia's education sytem?
30 years ago we were seen as the creme de la creme of educational institutes.
Is the demise due to:
dumber kids? 
lack of funding? 
lack of discipline? 
lack of standards? 
lack of accountability? 
lack of testing of what has been learnt? 
lack of accountabilty for teachers who have under performing students?
Too many non core subjects?
Too many feel good subjects?
Too many multiple choice exams?
Too many school excursions the teachers are interested in?
Too many student free days
Or maybe just a lack of interest?
http://www.happychild.com.au/articles/a-quick-guide-to-the-gonksi-review-of-funding-for-schooling

What do you think? Has teaching just become a job, where the faulty ones will be fixed up under warranty?


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## Ijustnewit (16 February 2013)

I would say most of the above. With an emphasis on Pupil Free Days , Feel Good Subjects and Projects , Too many hours spent outside classrooms , Teachers that are no more than students themselves.
How many times I see whole school groups out at learning to swim classes , now I'm not saying they shouldn't include some sort of water safety in the curriculum however how many times a week do they have to swimming ?
The time it would take to load the kids on and off the bus and drive to the local pool , have an hour or so swimming and then waiting for them to change ect. Valuable subject time is lost whilst the teachers hand the kids over to the instructor while they go off and have a coffee and check their mobiles. Now Garrett wants every school child to be able to swim 50 meters , again how much other subject matter will be lost to this project ?
How many times I see school groups out in town or at the shopping centres with clip board in hand wandering around , again while the teachers are somewhere in the background with a coffee and their phone again. What are they studying ? 
How many times I see school groups out at museums or art galleries , again handed over to some guide and the teachers again are just wandering around chatting. 
So overall I would say there is too much time spent on efforts getting the kids out of that classroom and out and about all in the name of education. 
So far since they have gone back to school  last week , I have seen or heard in the news the following .
A day out to walk for a charity
Days spent on preparation for an Eisteddfod competition
More swimming lessons
A visiting politician , so the school involved came to a halt on that day
And the Victorian Teachers out on strike already after several months off
Also I would add in my day that teachers where to be respected and also feared , they were not your trying to be your best friend and act cool and trendy .


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## burglar (16 February 2013)

Ijustnewit said:


> ... Too many hours spent outside classrooms ...




_I wanna go back to school_!


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## Knobby22 (17 February 2013)

burglar said:


> _I wanna go back to school_!




I wanna be a teacher


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## drsmith (17 February 2013)

Labor always has the answers, but only to the questions that matters to itself.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3433856.htm


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## sptrawler (17 February 2013)

drsmith said:


> Labor always has the answers, but only to the questions that matters to itself.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3433856.htm




Absolutely Doc, untill they make teachers and the curiculum focus on core academic subjects the standard will continue to fall.
There hasn't been a huge evolutionary step change in human intelligence in the last 30 years.

However, now we think children can achieve the same academic levels with less tuition time. 
30 years ago, all these warm feel good subjects weren't in the curiculum, swimming lessons were carried out in school holidays.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/national/16161554/adult-literacy-maths-shock/

What I can't understand is why we have to keep spending millions of dollars to identify the obvious.
Maybe a strong teachers union has something to do with it.


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## McLovin (17 February 2013)

sptrawler said:


> lack of funding?




Stop giving the wealthiest private schools handouts. I say that as someone who went to one and who will send my kids (when I have them) to one. The money could really be better spent paying for kids from less well off backgrounds. Every year when I get my school's annual report in the mail I shake my head at the subsidy.

Take a look at the accounts and tell me if they need a government handout.

http://www.cranbrook.nsw.edu.au/docs/AnnualReport2011_FA_website.pdf

They make around $26k in fees/child before the government chips in.


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## burglar (17 February 2013)

sptrawler said:


> ... 30 years ago, all these warm feel good subjects weren't in the curiculum, ...




I studied Latin and old maths ... it stood me in good stead!


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## sptrawler (17 February 2013)

burglar said:


> I studied Latin and old maths ... it stood me in good stead!




Would that be like learning your times tables and mental arithmetic a time when you weren't allowed to use calculators in an exam.

Nowadays, it's what's an exam, what's a times table? 
At the checkout it's, the checkout say's $x it must be right.
It was funny at our local supermarket last year, we had a power failure, all the young girls were removed from the checkouts and older staff installed.
They were the only ones who could cope with manual process of adding up.


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## sptrawler (17 February 2013)

McLovin said:


> Stop giving the wealthiest private schools handouts. I say that as someone who went to one and who will send my kids (when I have them) to one. The money could really be better spent paying for kids from less well off backgrounds. Every year when I get my school's annual report in the mail I shake my head at the subsidy.
> 
> Take a look at the accounts and tell me if they need a government handout.
> 
> ...




McLovin, in my opinion it has nothing to do with funding.

If you are adding feel good subjects to the curiculum and at the same time removing available time, with out of school activities and student free days.

You have to pick up the slack somewhere, either reduce holiday time or add years to school time.

The only other option is to get back to basics and work out what you really need to teach in the given time.

More money doesn't buy more time, it just costs more for the same outcome.IMO


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## Country Lad (18 February 2013)

It is interesting that the basics of improving education outcomes in schools is actually proven and it is a bit like going back many years and taking the bureaucracy and union intransigence out of the system and appointing headteachers/principals who are good people managers and giving them autonomy to manage the business of schooling.

This includes appointing the teachers and getting rid of those who do not perform.  Currently it is a long and drawn out process to cull the teachers not performing and then they pop up somewhere else in the system.

Funding is only a small part of the problem.  As has been proven at a number of schools it is teacher quality, teacher performance and the teacher/student engagement that counts.  That was certainly the case many decades ago when I went to school and the student achievements were higher than these days.  These factors may not be the whole answer but it is certainly better than just throwing money at the problem.

For anybody who wants to argue this is not a large part of the answer should firstly watch the 4 Corners program  Revolution in the Classroom aired a year ago and then say why this is not a good approach to try.

Unfortunately, it is easier for governments and bureaucrats to write such policies on class sizes, curriculum, student contact times, swimming abilities etc, rather than teacher performance and guidelines for identifying excellent performance and different levels of compensation commensurate with that performance.  After all that happens everywhere else.

The extended interviews with the 3 Principal involved in the 4 Corners program are also interesting.

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/fourcorners/video/20120206_weeks_288p.mp4
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/fourcorners/video/20120206_mcconville_288p.mp4
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/fourcorners/video/20120206_proctor_288p.mp4

Cheers
Country Lad


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## sptrawler (18 February 2013)

Country Lad said:


> It is interesting that the basics of improving education outcomes in schools is actually proven and it is a bit like going back many years and taking the bureaucracy and union intransigence out of the system and appointing headteachers/principals who are good people managers and giving them autonomy to manage the business of schooling.
> 
> This includes appointing the teachers and getting rid of those who do not perform.  Currently it is a long and drawn out process to cull the teachers not performing and then they pop up somewhere else in the system.
> 
> ...




Good point.


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## albaby (18 February 2013)

McLovin said:


> Stop giving the wealthiest private schools handouts. I say that as someone who went to one and who will send my kids (when I have them) to one. The money could really be better spent paying for kids from less well off backgrounds. Every year when I get my school's annual report in the mail I shake my head at the subsidy.
> 
> Take a look at the accounts and tell me if they need a government handout.
> 
> ...



Same position Mclovin,although I'm thinking of my grandkids,I was horrified at the $s that went to mine just for the BER.Al


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## Julia (18 February 2013)

albaby said:


> Same position Mclovin,although I'm thinking of my grandkids,I was horrified at the $s that went to mine just for the BER.Al



Did the private schools at least have some choice about how their BER funds were spent?


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## sptrawler (27 February 2013)

Another example of a failing system, maths should be a compulsory subject.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/dropping-maths-doesnt-add-up-says-ridout-20130226-2f46o.html


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## Calliope (27 February 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well what is wrong with Australia's education sytem?
> 30 years ago we were seen as the creme de la creme of educational institutes.
> Is the demise due to:
> dumber kids?
> ...





Yes, all these, but the main one ( which is not talked about because of the strength of the teachers' unions) is the low quality of the teachers i.e. dumber teachers. Teaching and Education have very low university entrance scores (ATARs), so the vacancies tend to be filled by those who don't score high enough to qualify for the more demanding courses.

Take Ballarat University for example. There are only seven other university courses that allow a lower Australian tertiary admission rank than Ballarat University's education course.

The unions, of course, oppose grading the teachers.





Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/data-point/teacher-entry-ranking-tumbles-20130117-2cwb5.html#ixzz2M45QtQQI


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## medicowallet (27 February 2013)

I see 2 massive problems:

1. Teachers are paid too much.

25 hours per week for anything down to 40 weeks per year.

If the funds were directed appropriately, then it would ease cost pressures.

2. The need for a national curriculum
       This would allow set standards to be met at a set age (whilst allowing flavour)
       This would save money in duplicated systems.


MW


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## gav (28 February 2013)

I think another factor that deserves mentioning is that parents need to also take take responsibility. (When I was a kid, I was too scared NOT to do my school work because my parents will kick my ass! : )

Not sure if anyone has read Gladwell's "Outliers". He quotes a study which shows the results of tests from school kids from different income backgrounds. The tests are taken at the start of the school year, end of school year, and after holidays.  The overall results are what one would expect (low income perform the worst, high income the best). 

However, during the school year all kids increased test results at about the same rate, regardless of family income. But the test results showed that over the holiday period, the knowledge of the low income kids regressed, middle income kids stayed the same, and the high income kids improved significantly. Basically the study concluded that it didn't matter what school the kids went to, it was their home environment that had the biggest impact on kids results.


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## chops_a_must (28 February 2013)

medicowallet said:


> I see 2 massive problems:
> 
> 1. Teachers are paid too much.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure teachers are paid too much.

But they are paid more than their peers in similar industries.

Having worked with both, there's no doubt nurses work much harder than teachers, and are paid much less, for instance.

The biggest problem is the drop out and attrition soon after getting into the classroom.

We simply can't train and keep enough teachers.

And we're heading for a crunch - just like we are with nurses, higher ed and many other professions that are underpaid relative to education qualifications.


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## Julia (28 February 2013)

gav said:


> I think another factor that deserves mentioning is that parents need to also take take responsibility. (When I was a kid, I was too scared NOT to do my school work because my parents will kick my ass! : )



Sure.  Opposed to that are the many families where education is just not valued.  It's very difficult for teachers, however good they are, to make headway with kids whose home life is based on a welfare entitlement mentality, and no expectation that anyone in the family will ever actually get a job.



> Basically the study concluded that it didn't matter what school the kids went to, it was their home environment that had the biggest impact on kids results.



It's hard to see this changing.


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## jersey10 (28 February 2013)

The biggest problem with our education system is that it exists in an anti-authoritarian culture.

The other major problem with the education system is how teachers are remunerated.

The drop out rate is alarming and the number of teachers who would like to drop out but don't is more alarming.  The reason for this is it's a *!#$ of a job mainly due to the culture that devalues education and devalues authority.

Teachers are paid not for how well they do their job, they are paid for how long they have been in their job - what a joke.  I was in the education system and there were teachers arriving for work at 7am and leaving at 6pm who were brilliant teachers who produced great outcomes for their students.  These teachers had been in the system for 1-3 years and were on about 60k per year.  Then there were teachers who would arrive at 8:45, leave at 3:15, were crap teachers and produced very little outcomes for their students.  These these teachers had been in the system for 10 years plus and were on about 75k - 80k.  This is doomed to fail every time.  The teachers who have been in the system have no motivation but to just stay in the system.  The 'good' teachers get pissed off and either leave or drop their standards and become a teacher who stays in the system.  Until this scenario is addressed it will never work.

On top of that, the longer they have been in the system and receive salary increases they do less teaching not more.

I am now in a different part of the education sector and often interview final year university primary education students.  I am bewildered how often i come across people at this level who cannot spell or do mathematics at primary school level.


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## chops_a_must (28 February 2013)

Great post!


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## sptrawler (16 March 2013)

They still don't get it.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/merit-pay-showdown-looms-20130316-2g7tz.html

I doubt very much, teachers in private schools get paid more than teachers in public schools. More likely the other way round, as it is for nurses.
However I would think job satisfaction in private schools is much better.
Also parents who pay for their childrens education expect something of an outcome, if it is a poor outcome they can question it, when they have paid for it.
The public school system is a shambles, throwing more money at teachers isn't the answer.IMO
Get back to basics, discipline and assessable outcomes.
Giving teachers more money for the same outcome is dumb. They would be better off giving students cash incentives for results.lol


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## banco (16 March 2013)

sptrawler said:


> They still don't get it.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/merit-pay-showdown-looms-20130316-2g7tz.html
> 
> ...




Maybe not in the Catholic system but the more expensive private schools pay considerably better than public schools particularly at senior levels.  The principal at MLC (where they had the big spat with the board) was on $600,000 plus benefits I think.


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## sptrawler (17 March 2013)

banco said:


> Maybe not in the Catholic system but the more expensive private schools pay considerably better than public schools particularly at senior levels.  The principal at MLC (where they had the big spat with the board) was on $600,000 plus benefits I think.




Well from teachers I know in 'normal' private schools, they are on less than similar suburb public school teachers.
Also on the nursing front, my other half was paid less working in private rather than public hospitals. 
I should know, we had many arguements when I was trying to convince her to work in the public system as the pay was higher.
Funnily enough it was all the work place political crap that turned her off public hospitals. 

Also with regard MLC, I bet the parents expect outcomes, if they aren't forth coming one would expect answers.


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## orr (17 March 2013)

This  exemplifies what is proven to work; An interview with Pasi Shalberg Director of Finish Education.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf65Z_gqH1U


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## orr (26 March 2013)

An Hour long talk by Pasi Schulberg whilst in australia April last year. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=YoMzsaRTW5U

Public education when raised to this standard is a threat to all established Private and Church school hierarchy and Institutions.


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## ROE (26 March 2013)

sometimes it is easier to blame the system but parents and society play big part in kids schooling and education...

what I seen in the last decade is kids growing up with lack of discipline, lack of respect for authority, from there it hatches into other problems.....

kids education doesn't start and end at school, parents got to get involve and from what I seen people around my work place...they just outsource their responsibilities to school and plan the next over sea holiday...kids dont understand their subjects, ah school not doing enough, kids get out of hand school cant discipline them afraid parents may sue...

How about turn off the TV and spend time and teach your kids, use the money get them extra help and tutor instead of oversea holiday  or learn from someone who sent their kids to public school and get superb outcome

my 2c and observation...


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## Julia (26 March 2013)

ROE said:


> sometimes it is easier to blame the system but parents and society play big part in kids schooling and education...
> 
> what I seen in the last decade is kids growing up with lack of discipline, lack of respect for authority, from there it hatches into other problems.....
> 
> ...



+1.
A friend of mine teaches English and History at a public high school.  Because he's a bloke, and because he has 30 years of experience managing difficult students, he is assigned the worst students.  This means he spends most of his time attempting to control disruption rather than actually being able to engage in useful teaching.

Just an example:  A 15 year old boy who constantly disrupts the class, when told to leave the room so the rest of the class could get on with their work, responded:  "I don't have to do s**t, you motherf*****er.  You can't tell me what to do , you f***ing c**t.

My friend duly reported the kid to the Deputy Principal as protocol dictates, and she declined to suspend him.
A phone call to the kid's father brought more abuse of the nature described above by the boy.

No wonder few capable people want to be teachers.


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## drsmith (13 April 2013)

It looks like the government it going to raise funding for Gonski from within the _broader education budget_,



> The Federal Government has announced a $2 billion cut to the university sector to help pay for its school education reforms as recommended by the Gonski review.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-13/gonski/4627278



> THE federal government will set a $2000 cap on how much people can claim on work-related expenses for education.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-claims-to-2000/story-fn59niix-1226619711741 



Julia said:


> Just an example:  A 15 year old boy who constantly disrupts the class, when told to leave the room so the rest of the class could get on with their work, responded:  "I don't have to do s**t, you motherf*****er.  You can't tell me what to do , you f***ing c**t.




I can remember when I was in year 9 a fellow student telling a teacher fo f*** off in class. He was immediately ordered to the principal's office. I never knew what his fate was but the cane was still in use in those days.


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## drsmith (14 April 2013)

It will be interesting to see how the Opposition handles today's school funding package from the government. One obvious line will be that money alone doesn't necessarily help. 

This is from Feb last year,



> A new report says Australian high school students are now up to three years behind in maths compared with students in parts of Asia, despite increasing funding.




http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3433856.htm


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## Julia (14 April 2013)

drsmith said:


> One obvious line will be that money alone doesn't necessarily help.



Has the government explained how the additional funding will be applied in order to improve how children learn?  Unless they intend to choose teachers from those with the higher OPs who have hopefully had a decent education themselves, I'm not sure how money is going to help.


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## sptrawler (14 April 2013)

They are saying the Government is going to give $4000/student, the figures don't seem to add up.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...e-for-school-funding-plan-20130414-2ht9p.html

They say W.A and NT will get $300m, while Tasmania gets $400m and SA $600m.

I would have thought WA would have as many, if not more students, than SA,Tassie and the NT.


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## noco (14 April 2013)

sptrawler said:


> They are saying the Government is going to give $4000/student, the figures don't seem to add up.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...e-for-school-funding-plan-20130414-2ht9p.html
> 
> ...




Christopher Pyne on Meet The Press this morning described it as the Labor Party's CON ski report. 

A CON job on the Liberal Party States who will be expected to pay more than the ineffiicient Labor States .


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## sptrawler (14 April 2013)

noco said:


> Christopher Pyne on Meet The Press this morning described it as the Labor Party's CON ski report.
> 
> A CON job on the Liberal Party States who will be expected to pay more than the ineffiicient Labor States .




So that's it, devisive Julia would like to lead Australia in a fair and equitable way.
But she just can't seem to overcome her nasty streak.


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## chops_a_must (15 April 2013)

This is just so typical of Gillard.

Great policy idea. Completely **** up the follow through, implementation and alienate their own supporter base while they're at it.


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## dutchie (15 April 2013)

Julia said:


> Has the government explained how the additional funding will be applied in order to improve how children learn?  Unless they intend to choose teachers from those with the higher OPs who have hopefully had a decent education themselves, I'm not sure how money is going to help.




Apparently the states decide how the money will be spent.


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## sptrawler (15 April 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> This is just so typical of Gillard.
> 
> Great policy idea. Completely **** up the follow through, implementation and alienate their own supporter base while they're at it.




What a joke, even Gonski thinks they're dumb.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tertiary-funding/story-fncyva0b-1226620288084

This just gets better and better, at least with a long election campaign, the goons should give us a few laughs.


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## chops_a_must (15 April 2013)

sptrawler said:


> What a joke, even Gonski thinks they're dumb.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tertiary-funding/story-fncyva0b-1226620288084
> 
> This just gets better and better, at least with a long election campaign, the goons should give us a few laughs.




It is utterly idiotic.

I'll have some research out later this year, that shows teacher training is one of the most demographically troubled sectors.

Most are 55+, older than in the school system, and get paid anywhere from 50% 80% of what they would get if they moved back into the school system.

It's simply one of the biggest hindrances to getting better teachers trained and prepared for the classroom.

Cutting once again, is not going to help one little bit.


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## Country Lad (15 April 2013)

Earlier on in this thread (post #11) I gave the links where significant improvements were made by 3 schools by changing the way they were managed in a more autonomous way with good teachers being appointed at appropriate salary levels as happens in those countries outperforming us in education.

I am of the opinion that the reluctance of the Fed Government to head in this (proven here and overseas) direction is that they don't want an argument with the Teachers Unions.  The unions are vehemently opposed to teachers being paid according to performance or being paid performance bonuses regardless of the fact that this occurs in any industry you can think of.

Queensland in particular now has a problem because they have looked at the success factors around Australia and other countries and has put in plans where high performing teachers are to be paid accordingly, teachers willing to undergo greater training and/or attain further uni qualifications would be compensated to do so.  The teachers in that State were to be paid according to performance criteria and the unions are screaming loud and long.  It appears the Teachers Union considers that mediocrity should be rewarded the same as high performance.

Now Qld is being asked to participate in a scheme where results are unproven and at the cost of uni education which will no doubt also affect the upskilling of teachers.  On top of that because WA has been ahead of the game in school performance, they get very little money to undertake further improvements towards world class standards.  Go figure.

Cheers
Country Lad


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## drsmith (15 April 2013)

Reading the AFR this morning, it would seem that this is somewhat like the super changes in that it's little more than an election commitment.

Julia Gillard has given the states till June 30 to agree which is after the last sitting of Parliament before we go the polls. Any enabling legislation would therefore have to wait until the next term of government.


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## Julia (15 April 2013)

The proposed allocation of funding seems to hugely discriminate against W.A., apparently because this state has already put in the extra effort (also extra funding?) to lift standards in education.
So, whacko, they are penalised when it comes to federal funding!

With the proposed spending of this amount of money (in the unlikely event that it ever gets legislated and actually happens) I'd like to know how the federal government are going to measure the effectiveness of its 'reforms'?


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## Calliope (15 April 2013)

Has the Gillard Labor government ever improved anything by throwing extra taxpayer's money at it.? Standards are only ever raised by increasing efficiency. The answer is efficient teachers.


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## noco (16 April 2013)

Calliope said:


> Has the Gillard Labor government ever improved anything by throwing extra taxpayer's money at it.? Standards are only ever raised by increasing efficiency. The answer is efficient teachers.




I don't think you will have anything to worry about as I heard the Greens are going to oppose the whole deal.


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## sptrawler (16 April 2013)

Julia said:


> The proposed allocation of funding seems to hugely discriminate against W.A., apparently because this state has already put in the extra effort (also extra funding?) to lift standards in education.
> So, whacko, they are penalised when it comes to federal funding!
> 
> With the proposed spending of this amount of money (in the unlikely event that it ever gets legislated and actually happens) I'd like to know how the federal government are going to measure the effectiveness of its 'reforms'?




Just another disgracefull decission, by disgracefull people.IMO

One plus this Labor government has achieved is, they have shown the Australian people how bad politicians can be.


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## Calliope (16 April 2013)

Well they would...wouldn't they?



> COUNTRY independents Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott have backed Labor's Gonski reforms and signalled their readiness to accept cuts to higher education funding to help pay for the school funding overhaul.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...funding-overhaul/story-fn59nlz9-1226621769651


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## drsmith (17 April 2013)

As the states dig into the detail, they're not so sure.



> The Australian understands that the federal government is seeking an initial injection of at least $580m in the first year of the new system unveiled on the weekend by Julia Gillard, of which the commonwealth will provide about two-thirds.
> 
> More than half the $14.5bn increase in funding is not forecast to flow through the school system until 2018 and 2019, which places it beyond the forward estimates period in federal and state budgets.






> But the Newman government is sceptical of the revised 65-35 per cent commonwealth-state funding split, with its own modelling showing it would have to inject an additional $2.48bn over the period -- $1.2bn more than the Gillard government is publicly demanding. The extra amount is believed to represent the amount of indexation over the six-year period.
> 
> The West Australian and Victorian governments yesterday confirmed they, like Queensland, had been offered a 50-50 deal with 4.7 per cent indexation overall and were not informed before Ms Gillard's announcement that the deal had been revised to 65-35 and an overall indexation rate of 3.6 per cent, representing an average of the different state and commonwealth rates.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ki-funds-to-flow/story-fn59nlz9-1226622011138


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## Calliope (17 April 2013)

It's not the cash handout, its what happens in the classroom that counts.



> *Improving teaching standards and school culture is vital*
> 
> IN the interests of Australia's children, government and education authorities should take note of indigenous leader Noel Pearson's salient warning about the Gonski funding reforms.
> 
> ...



(My Bolds)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...t-all-about-cash/story-e6frg71x-1226622002244


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## Julia (17 April 2013)

Noel Pearson is correct, as usual.
There is also the irony that money is to be taken out of university funding, those institutions which are actually responsible for training the teachers!


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## Calliope (17 April 2013)

In Victoria



> TEACHERS have won pay rises of up to 20.5 per cent over three years after the long-running industrial saga was finally resolved today.




The pay rise has nothing to do with performance.


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## chops_a_must (17 April 2013)

Country Lad said:


> Earlier on in this thread (post #11) I gave the links where significant improvements were made by 3 schools by changing the way they were managed in a more autonomous way with good teachers being appointed at appropriate salary levels as happens in those countries outperforming us in education.
> 
> I am of the opinion that the reluctance of the Fed Government to head in this (proven here and overseas) direction is that they don't want an argument with the Teachers Unions.  The unions are vehemently opposed to teachers being paid according to performance or being paid performance bonuses regardless of the fact that this occurs in any industry you can think of.
> 
> ...




There are a couple of issues here.

The research on school autonomy is pretty patchy. There are other things that make a bigger impact.

The problem is being able to assess teacher quality in and across different schools.

As Hattie has shown, there are bigger factors on student performance than the classroom teacher. You simply can't compare a teacher in suburban Melbourne with a teacher in a busted **** NT community.

In fact, the research shows that the biggest indicator of student performance, is the previous 2-3 teachers. So any measure of performance is likely to be misattributed. 

You can use qualifications as a proxy for performance. But the teaching industry is pretty recalcitrant in this regard, and demand higher pay that in other industries would be impossible without further education.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that content specialisation such as in Finland is a big driver of teacher performance. In Australia, the teaching industry often shuns highly qualified teachers, and they are often sideswiped into lower paying positions than they should be able to command. It is quite bizarre.

Aside from the teacher quality and teacher effectiveness arguments, the next most impactful factor for student performance is teacher feedback.

Rather than reducing class sizes, we would be better off having larger class sizes, and more time for detailed feedback. It is simply a classroom management argument from the teachers, and driven by the fact they have some of the most lazy and obstinate workers I have come across.



Calliope said:


> Has the Gillard Labor government ever improved anything by throwing extra taxpayer's money at it.? Standards are only ever raised by increasing efficiency. The answer is efficient teachers.




Efficiency. Really?


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## sptrawler (17 April 2013)

Really we would be better off just bringing back standard examinations, thereby showing which areas are failing.
Having standard exams at specific ages, with levels of difficulty to reflect the subjects being studied.
This gives a snapshot of the nation and the outcomes from a student/ school perspective.

Oh sorry forgot, you can't have exams anymore, it puts the kids under too much pressure.
Best just to let them slide down the accademic scale and cover up for those who are allowing it to happen.


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## chops_a_must (17 April 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Really we would be better off just bringing back standard examinations, thereby showing which areas are failing.
> Having standard exams at specific ages, with levels of difficulty to reflect the subjects being studied.
> This gives a snapshot of the nation and the outcomes from a student/ school perspective.
> 
> ...




That's exactly what NAPLAN is.


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## sptrawler (17 April 2013)

Labor and the teachers union will fix it.


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## drsmith (28 May 2013)

Has Gonski come back to bite Barry O'Farrell ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-to-allay-fears/story-fn59nlz9-1226651734421


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## sptrawler (28 May 2013)

drsmith said:


> Has Gonski come back to bite Barry O'Farrell ?
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-to-allay-fears/story-fn59nlz9-1226651734421




O'Farrell, should have had more sense than jumping into bed with this lot, shows poor judgement.IMO


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## drsmith (12 June 2013)

Under the radar of abortion, men in blue ties and poor taste menus, more money being spent.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ls-funding-offer/story-fn59nlz9-1226662612207


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## sptrawler (12 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> Under the radar of abortion, men in blue ties and poor taste menus, more money being spent.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ls-funding-offer/story-fn59nlz9-1226662612207




Just shows it was all a stunt, $300m becomes $920m, Barnett would have to be stupid to believe this lot.


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## drsmith (14 June 2013)

I don't know how much, but more money has been offered to South Australia to sign up, according to the AFR.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/gillard_bumps_up_offer_to_seal_sa_FlmLiDeNaC8EQPAc33a05O


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## sptrawler (14 June 2013)

It is hilarious how Gillard is splashing all this money around, when she won't be in office to deliver.


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## sptrawler (14 June 2013)

Here is another example of dumb politics.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17597251/pm-turns-up-heat-on-school-funding/

The projections show that Leinster Primary School in the Goldfields would be a big winner, with each student to get $20,900 within six years, up from $13,700 now

Leinster will be shut down if the resource prices drop. Therefore it will cost nothing.

For example Kambalda a town 300klms south or Leinster with a population of approx 7,000 people. 

The main Dampier to Esperance gas pipeline runs right through the town, but they did not reticulate the town.
Everyone still has to buy bottled gas, so much for improving country towns. Sounds more like dig it out and close it up to me.


So to talk about Leinster school getting $20,000 is a bloody insult to people's intelligence. The government has no interest in improving anything for these towns.IMO


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## Calliope (15 June 2013)

O'Farrell and Napthine are the Slipper brand of Liberals...they can be bought if the price is right.


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## sptrawler (22 June 2013)

I had to have a chuckle today. I read in the 'West' that Carmen Lawrence, was on the Gonski review committe.

Does anyone have a list of other members?


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## Julia (22 June 2013)

What so amused you, sptrawler?  Way over here in the East we never saw too much of Carmen Lawrence.
What I did see I found, although way to the Left, pretty intelligent.
Different in her home state?


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## sptrawler (22 June 2013)

Julia said:


> What so amused you, sptrawler?  Way over here in the East we never saw too much of Carmen Lawrence.
> What I did see I found, although way to the Left, pretty intelligent.
> Different in her home state?




Just interested to see how many left wing labor retirees were on the committe, I haven't been able to find out the makeup of the Gonski group.


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## Country Lad (22 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> ............. I haven't been able to find out the makeup of the Gonski group.





David Gonski AC, Chair
Ken Boston AO
Kathryn Greiner AO
Carmen Lawrence
Bill Scales AO
Peter Tannock AM


Cheers
Country Lad


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## drsmith (23 July 2013)

Kevin Rudd gets the Catholic schools on board with some extra money,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...to-school-funding-reforms-20130723-2qfjp.html

NSW premier Barry O'Farrell must by now be feeling like a bit of a goose for signing up his state so quickly.


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## drsmith (26 November 2013)

Christopher Pyne today on Gonski,



> The Coalition believes the so-called Gonski model negotiated by Labor is too complicated, with Mr Pyne describing it as "a complete shambles" and "an incomprehensible mess".
> 
> The federal minister is looking to put in place a new system using the same amount of funding promised by Labor over four years.






> Mr Pyne says the Government will honour funding for 2014 but beyond that, a new model will be implemented.
> 
> He says he remains committed to a needs-based funding system, but he will be putting in place a model that requires less regulation.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-...l-funding-needs-overhaul2c-despite-st/5116978

Christopher Pyne presser video,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-26/pyne-accuses-labor-of-leaving-school-funding/5117418


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## drsmith (26 November 2013)

Bill Shorten,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-26/labor-accuses-government-of-breaking-election/5117488


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## drsmith (28 November 2013)

While the main deception here has been that of Labor's in pulling $1.2bn from the Gonski budget, Christopher Pyne's response this week has been poor.

In his presser on Tuesday, he came across as somewhat poorly organised in his thoughts, suggesting the decisions he was taking were not well considered and perhaps very recent. Further evidence of this came yesterday with the back down on his 4-year funding limit of $1.6bn in topping up WA, QLD and the NT in 2014. It was interesting that Tony Abbott was also present with Christopher Pyne on yesterdays update, a clear sign that the PM realised that Pyne has got himself into bother with his public handling of this. Hopefully it's something Pyne realises as well.

Because of Pyne's poor handling of this, I suspect the Coalition may have to back down completely on the 4-year funding envelope and simply wear the egg. To that end, the outcome of tomorrow's meeting of state and federal education ministers will be interesting.

Christopher Pyne strikes me as someone who sees himself as a cut above the rest and very much relishes the theatre of politics. Hopefully this weeks performance will be a salient lesson to him that government is much more than that. He also comes across as untrustworthy which is an obvious problem for a government that wants to portray itself as a better alternative than Labor in that regard.

As for Bill Shorten presser response on Tuesday, he just avoided the question about the $1.2bn Labor stripped from the Gonski budget.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ol-funding-cash/story-fn59nlz9-1226769986196#

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/11/27/1226769/999228-131128-aus-file-school-funding.pdf


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## drsmith (4 December 2013)

Australian students slipping behind in maths, reading: OECD report

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-03/australian-students-slipping-behind-in-maths-reading/5132526


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## sails (4 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> Australian students slipping behind in maths, reading: OECD report
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-03/australian-students-slipping-behind-in-maths-reading/5132526





Has labor actually done anything for education in their six years in office except dream up a massively expensive and hotched-potched scheme to make life more difficult for an incoming liberal government?

And they can't blame Abbott for these poor results from 2012.  Labor HAS to take responsibility for that one.

Maybe IFocus can enlighten us to labor's achievements in education during their six years in office apart from announcing Gonski only weeks before an election and for which they did not seem to have funding.


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