# Asylum immigrants - Green Light



## Bobby (15 August 2006)

Off shore -now not on .

Get ready for the next invasion of  economic refuges.
The cost will be immense both monetary & socially.

Bob.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (15 August 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Off shore -now not on .
> 
> Get ready for the next invasion of  economic refuges.
> The cost will be immense both monetary & socially.
> ...




Bob,

Welfare nation to hand out more  

Pretty apt?


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## wayneL (15 August 2006)

Divide and conquer I'm afraid.


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## Bloveld (15 August 2006)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Off shore -now not on .
> 
> Get ready for the next invasion of  economic refuges.
> The cost will be immense both monetary & socially.
> ...





Well if u cant take the heat get outta the kitchen. Rather get the hell out of Australia wont you. I am sick of you alarmist wimps whinging.


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## rubicon (15 August 2006)

Oh dear. Ignorance is not bliss.  Ignorance is well... Ignorance.

 Asylum seekers are not economic refugees.

Under the 1951 Geneva Convention for Asylum Seekers "an asylum seeker" is someone who has a well founded fear (which they have to be able to prove to the satisfaction of ther potential host government) of persecution because of their race, their religion, their nationality, their political beliefs, or by being a member of a social grouping (Gays of wives/women at risk)

AS the bulk of these are fleeing because they have been trying to oppose the existing regimes in their home countries they are probably Darwins fittest of the species. They are certainly those with get up and go.

Is this why so many mediocre Australians are frightened of them???


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## noirua (15 August 2006)

rubicon said:
			
		

> Oh dear. Ignorance is not bliss.  Ignorance is well... Ignorance.
> 
> Asylum seekers are not economic refugees.
> 
> ...





People are not so frightened of asylum seekers as they are of those who are illegal immigrants and those who arrive and it is not possible to work out which country they come from.


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## Fugazi (15 August 2006)

I'm sure most will agree that to give genuine asylum seekers a chance to carry on a normal, productive life is a moral responsibility, but it's a short step from the sublime to the ridiculous.

I moved to Brissy from London nearly 3 years ago because I didn't want to bring my kids up in a place that was rapidly being over-run by economic migrants, spongers and downright criminals who's first and last words of English are 'Asylum' and 'Benefit'.

London is rapidly going down the pan because of a combination of ridiculous European legislation that opened the floodgates, and the fact that it is just plain bloody difficult to tell who is genuine and who is a crook.

I'm proud to have become an Australian citizen last week, and I would hate to see this fantastic country fall into the same trap. Better to be conservative with the nations compassion and go to whatever lengths are necessary to ensure the right people are getting the help they need, than to risk the whole country suffering because a few politicians don't want to be criticised for being harsh.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 August 2006)

Bloveld said:
			
		

> Well if u cant take the heat get outta the kitchen. Rather get the hell out of Australia wont you. I am sick of you alarmist wimps whinging.




Cultural cowards! 

Bloveld,

We have a right to stick up for what we have.


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## noco (19 December 2010)

Fugazi said:


> I'm sure most will agree that to give genuine asylum seekers a chance to carry on a normal, productive life is a moral responsibility, but it's a short step from the sublime to the ridiculous.
> 
> I moved to Brissy from London nearly 3 years ago because I didn't want to bring my kids up in a place that was rapidly being over-run by economic migrants, spongers and downright criminals who's first and last words of English are 'Asylum' and 'Benefit'.
> 
> ...





WHO WILL DO THIS IF ELECTED (An Excellent Letter) 

A real worthwhile dummy spit - read this with honour.
This letter should be "a must read" by every politician and in every school in Australia
Why don't the politicians take letters like this to heart ----- Original This is very well said.
A Letter to the Editor (excellent letter)

So many letter writers have explained how this land is made up of immigrants. Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people why today's Australian is not willing to accept the new kind of immigrant any longer.


Back in 1900 when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to Australia, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in Sydney and be documented. Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground. They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new Australian households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home. They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture.


Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labour laws to protect them. All they had were the skills, craftsmanship and desire they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity.


Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out. Australians fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany, Italy, France, Japan, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Sweden, Poland and so many other places. None of these first generation Australians ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Australians fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan. They were defending the Freedom as one people. When we liberated France, no-one in those villages was looking for the Ukrainian-Australian or the German-Australian or the Irish-Australian. The people of France saw only Australians.


And we carried one flag that represented our country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an Australian.


And here we are in 2010 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges. Only they want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes an Australian passport and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country. I'm sorry, that's not what being an Australian is all about. Australians have been very open-hearted and open-minded regarding immigrants, whether they were fleeing poverty, dictatorship, persecution, or whatever else makes us think of those aforementioned immigrants who truly did ADOPT our country, and our flag and our morals and our customs. And left their wars, hatred, and divisions behind. I believe that the immigrants who landed in Australia in the early 1900s deserve better than that for the toil, hard work and sacrifice those legally searching for a better life. I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags, fighting foreign battles on our soil, making Australians change to suit their religions and cultures, and wanting to change our country’s fabric by claiming discrimination when we do not give in to their demands.


Its about time we get real and stand up for our forefathers rights, we are AUSTRALIANS! Lest we forget it!!! I am a Native of this Country & proud of it! Join our country, join our culture, join our beliefs, join our schools, our armies, and join the line in giving not just taking the hand outs.  If you are from another religion and don’t like ours, then go live yours somewhere else. If you are not happy with our rules and our culture, go live yours somewhere else. If you don’t like our lifestyle and our opinions, go live yours somewhere else.  Stand up mates, lets tell ‘em straight.   Australia for Aussies, join us, when you are dumping your own country, dump your trash there with it - come here and be one of us. We don’t need you, you need us, join in or p--s off. 


NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
NO MORE not saying CHRISTMAS in stores and our schools,
Seasonal Holiday be dammed!!!

I Want MY AUSTRALIA of birth BACK !!!


P. S. -- Please pass this on to everyone you know!!!
KEEP THIS LETTER MOVING!!  Hope this letter is read by millions of people all across AUSTRALIA


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## pixel (20 December 2010)

Thank you, noco;
I have lifted the letter and sent it to my friends - with a personal intro I'd like to share:

Can’t tell where this letter had been first published; I found it blogged  on a website that I sometimes visit for other topics. 

But I do find it worth passing along to you: it’s resounding in my heart,  although I was not born in this land.
We arrived in 1983 – with exactly the same attitude as the writer ascribes  to those that came pre-WW I. We attended (advanced) English classes to adapt more easily. We took the  first opportunity to apply for Citizenship, although it meant handing back our  German passports with the application. Technically, we were “state-less” while  being processed. 

 We decided NOT to join Rhine-Donau Clubs or similar associations that would  have perpetuated a different ethnicity: an element of the past that we don't deny, not even regret - how could we? But we feel it is totally irrelevant to our now being Australian.

 Instead, I was proud as Punch when I was invited to front a Bush band as  their fiddler. That, and being invited to play the National Anthem at  the  Bicentennial Australia Day in Karratha, meant more to me than any job  promotion.


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## Mofra (20 December 2010)

Bobby said:


> Get ready for the next invasion of  economic refuges.
> The cost will be immense both monetary & socially.



The "stop the boats" mantra of both governments, combined with offshore processing,  is actually the most expensive solution.

I dare say even if all 6,000 in detention are granted asylum, the number is so small it wont make a difference to overall Australian "culture" (whatever that is these days).

It must be awful to live in a state of perpetual fear.


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## breaker (20 December 2010)

great letter Noco ....To bloody right


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## noco (20 December 2010)

Mofra said:


> The "stop the boats" mantra of both governments, combined with offshore processing,  is actually the most expensive solution.
> 
> I dare say even if all 6,000 in detention are granted asylum, the number is so small it wont make a difference to overall Australian "culture" (whatever that is these days).
> 
> It must be awful to live in a state of perpetual fear.




The point is Mofra, they are entering Australia illegally. These asylim seekers destroy their passports and other identification so as not to be traced back to their place of origin. WHY? Is it not possible they could be criminals fleeing their own country or even terrorist? 
The young males pretend to be teenagers; they all say they were born on the 31 December 1993. They are nothing more than rich queue jumpers, denying genuine refugees the opportunity to resettle. They should be sent packing back to Indonesia.


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## FxTrader (20 December 2010)

noco said:


> The point is Mofra, they are entering Australia illegally. These asylim seekers destroy their passports and other identification so as not to be traced back to their place of origin. WHY? Is it not possible they could be criminals fleeing their own country or even terrorist?
> The young males pretend to be teenagers; they all say they were born on the 31 .December 1993. They are nothing more than rich queue jumpers, denying genuine refugees the opportunity to resettle. They should be sent packing back to Indonesia.



Well what do we have here, good old fashioned Australian jingoism, fear mongering and ignorant stererotyping masquerading as reasonable dialogue.  And what of the thousands of vistors who over stay their visas, more criminals and terrorists no doubt (you forgot to demonize them to during your Aussie pride rant).

Ah those "rich queue jumpers" (as if there ever was a queue), the vast majority of whom hoc everything they own and risk their lives to escape living conditions that you know nothing of and are unsympathetic toward while living in your little island cocoon.

Would it surprise you to learn that the majority of those interned through the "pacific island solution" were eventually granted refugee status?

Any chance you're also in favor of a return to the white Australia policy, after all only WASPs really deserve to live here eh mate? Get a conscience and lose the hate filled jingoistic rhetoric that underlies everything you've said here.


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## startrader (20 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Well what do we have here, good old fashioned Australian jingoism, fear mongering and ignorant stererotyping masquerading as reasonable dialogue.  And what of the thousands of vistors who over stay their visas, more criminals and terrorists no doubt (you forgot to demonize them to during your Aussie pride rant).
> 
> Ah those "rich queue jumpers" (as if there ever was a queue), the vast majority of whom hoc everything they own and risk their lives to escape living conditions that you know nothing of and are unsympathetic toward while living in your little island cocoon.
> 
> ...




Woooo, I love the put down comments:  "good old fashioned Australian jingoism, fear mongering and ignorant stereotyping masquerading as reasonable dialogue".

I can't see anything wrong with the statements by noco, which I would say are considered comments which are probably true.  

Your statement that "the majority of those interned through "the Pacific Island Solution" were eventually granted refugee status is really of no import in this debate because the main point of difference with the Liberal and Labor approaches to this issue if that the Liberal policy STOPPED THE BOATS FROM COMING - 129 boats so far in 2010 carrying 6232 people!


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## FxTrader (20 December 2010)

startrader said:


> I can't see anything wrong with the statements by noco, which I would say are considered comments which are probably true.



Well if you "can't see anything wrong" with the blatant fascist nationalism, fear mongering, aussie pride jingoistic drivel and barely concealed hatred of  disadvantaged, desperate people engendered in noco's rant then welcome to the red neck brigade here.  



> ... the Liberal policy STOPPED THE BOATS FROM COMING - 129 boats so far in 2010 carrying 6232 people!



Wow, 6,232 people!  Dear god we're being overrun, bring on the gunships and lock them up in prison camps, that'll teach em eh mate.  Make their already miserable lives even worse and show them just how inhumane we can really be, that's the answer. Using largely desperate, tramatized and victimized people as political fodder is just dispicable, contemptible conduct and you should be ashamed for buying into it.


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## ColB (20 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Well if you "can't see anything wrong" with the blatant fascist nationalism, fear mongering, aussie pride jingoistic drivel and barely concealed hatred of  disadvantaged, desperate people engendered in noco's rant then welcome to the red neck brigade here.
> 
> 
> Wow, 6,232 people!  Dear god we're being overrun, bring on the gunships and lock them up in prison camps, that'll teach em eh mate.  Make their already miserable lives even worse and show them just how inhumane we can really be, that's the answer. Using largely desperate, tramatized and victimized people as political fodder is just dispicable, contemptible conduct and you should be ashamed for buying into it.




Wow!  Sounds like you have a strong grip on the status of refugees trying to enter our country FX.  I would think there are many on this forum that have great compassion for genuine refugees fleeing a lifestyle that is probably not all that flash.  But I wonder what facts you have at hand that indicate they are * "largely desperate, tramatized and victimized people"*

I for one would like a system that truly weeds out those that are not genuine and send them back.  I would rather my taxes support Australian residents in need of assistance as we clearly don't have a bottomless barrel of money to support every Mohammed, Ahmed & Karim that wants to drop in.


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## noco (20 December 2010)

ColB said:


> Wow!  Sounds like you have a strong grip on the status of refugees trying to enter our country FX.  I would think there are many on this forum that have great compassion for genuine refugees fleeing a lifestyle that is probably not all that flash.  But I wonder what facts you have at hand that indicate they are * "largely desperate, tramatized and victimized people"*
> 
> I for one would like a system that truly weeds out those that are not genuine and send them back.  I would rather my taxes support Australian residents in need of assistance as we clearly don't have a bottomless barrel of money to support every Mohammed, Ahmed & Karim that wants to drop in.




Fx is a typical leftest who is very naive of  the basis of all these so called refugees infitrating into every Western Counrty whether by boat or air. There was a link on a previous post explaining the Muslim plot to convert the Western World into an Islamic state. There are some 1 billion Muslims through out the world and the previous post(I will search for it) gave the figures of the Muslim population in various Western Countries. I believe some 80% of refugees come from a Muslim Back ground.
Muslims are setting up there own communities and building their Islamic schools where the Koran is preached 5 times per day. You might say they are moderate now, but these children are being taught that if you are not a Muslim you an infidel and the Koran teaches in a devious way that infidels are not accepted in their society and must be eliminated. I believe we already have a Muslim in parliament.
So beware, watch as the plot thickens.


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## noco (20 December 2010)

noco said:


> Fx is a typical leftest who is very naive of  the basis of all these so called refugees infitrating into every Western Counrty whether by boat or air. There was a link on a previous post explaining the Muslim plot to convert the Western World into an Islamic state. There are some 1 billion Muslims through out the world and the previous post(I will search for it) gave the figures of the Muslim population in various Western Countries. I believe some 80% of refugees come from a Muslim Back ground.
> Muslims are setting up there own communities and building their Islamic schools where the Koran is preached 5 times per day. You might say they are moderate now, but these children are being taught that if you are not a Muslim you an infidel and the Koran teaches in a devious way that infidels are not accepted in their society and must be eliminated. I believe we already have a Muslim in parliament.
> So beware, watch as the plot thickens.




The link herewith gives some idea where the 1.5 billion Muslims are domiciled through out the World. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population


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## Julia (20 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Well what do we have here, good old fashioned Australian jingoism, fear mongering and ignorant stererotyping masquerading as reasonable dialogue.  And what of the thousands of vistors who over stay their visas,



Well, they did at least have an entry visa which assumes some sort of checking into their background.



> Ah those "rich queue jumpers" (as if there ever was a queue)



We hear this all the time, i.e. "as if there ever was a queue".
There is indeed a queue, FX, and it constitutes those refugees who apply by official channels of UNHCR and have often been waiting patiently in camps , having been approved by UNHCR, only to have their potential places supplanted by those who arrive by boat.

Immigration have candidly admitted that those waiting in the camps, already checked and approved, are being pushed back in the queue as they are forced to first process the boat arrivals.

So perhaps somewhat moderate your criticism of those who want to see orderly migration to this country, rather than calling them jingoistic etc.



> , the vast majority of whom hoc everything they own and risk their lives to escape living conditions that you know nothing of and are unsympathetic toward while living in your little island cocoon.



And you don't think those who have applied via official channels, and who are waiting in the camps are in similarly horrible situations?



> Would it surprise you to learn that the majority of those interned through the "pacific island solution" were eventually granted refugee status?



That is not the point at issue in this particular discussion where we are discussing who is admitted to Australia and when.



> Any chance you're also in favor of a return to the white Australia policy, after all only WASPs really deserve to live here eh mate? Get a conscience and lose the hate filled jingoistic rhetoric that underlies everything you've said here.




That seems to me to be unnecessarily vitriolic in the face of someone who simply sees a situation differently from the way you do.   We should be able to have the discussion without the personal insults.


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## Mofra (21 December 2010)

ColB said:


> Wow!  Sounds like you have a strong grip on the status of refugees trying to enter our country FX.  I would think there are many on this forum that have great compassion for genuine refugees fleeing a lifestyle that is probably not all that flash.  But I wonder what facts you have at hand that indicate they are * "largely desperate, tramatized and victimized people"*
> 
> I for one would like a system that truly weeds out those that are not genuine and send them back.  I would rather my taxes support Australian residents in need of assistance as we clearly don't have a bottomless barrel of money to support every Mohammed, Ahmed & Karim that wants to drop in.



Again, if the economic argument is valid, why are so many of the right in favour of a Nauru solution? It's the most expensive solution there is!


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## Mofra (21 December 2010)

noco said:


> The point is Mofra, they are entering Australia illegally. These asylim seekers destroy their passports and other identification so as not to be traced back to their place of origin. WHY? Is it not possible they could be criminals fleeing their own country or even terrorist?



Evidence that "they" are doing so on porpose? What proportion?
Fact is, the majority who seek asylum in Australia are found to be genuine refugees - whether they arrive by boat or otherwise.

If anyone is actually silly enough to believe multi-million dollar terrorist organisations will send their cells into another country via dangerous boat journey rather than just fly in, cheaply, with falsified documents, I pity them.


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## Mofra (21 December 2010)

Julia said:


> Well, they did at least have an entry visa which assumes some sort of checking into their background.



Really? In my experience customs officals tend to rubber stamp anyone with paperwork.



Julia said:


> We hear this all the time, i.e. "as if there ever was a queue".
> There is indeed a queue, FX, and it constitutes those refugees who apply by official channels of UNHCR and have often been waiting patiently in camps , having been approved by UNHCR, only to have their potential places supplanted by those who arrive by boat.
> 
> Immigration have candidly admitted that those waiting in the camps, already checked and approved, are being pushed back in the queue as they are forced to first process the boat arrivals.



True in part - I do believe those in camps shopudl be processed in line with or ahead of those who arrive by boat, but the current situation is borne out by governments who constantly take the most expensive option to house asylum seekers and thus force the panic-processing to reduce the burden. Even countries who have tens of thousands arrive allow community release for low-risk asylum seekers - too bad both parties have used them as too much of a political football to take the cheaper & more humane option.



Julia said:


> So perhaps somewhat moderate your criticism of those who want to see orderly migration to this country, rather than calling them jingoistic etc.



You sure everyone wants to see "orderly migration" though? I get the distint impression that there are many who want to see zero migration and a return to old-school protectionism.

In the face of comments about FX (less than flattering) and simplistic jingoism and the "they taking over the world" paranoia being posted in this thread, it's refreshing to obtain a different point of view that challenges the "all boat people are bad" perception.


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## donkeykong (21 December 2010)

How do you expect people being persecuted by secret police in places like Iran to join this imaginary “queue”? And also if these are so called economic refugees  then why don’t they just buy a plane ticket to oz?

Unless you bring every country in the world up to first world standards and eliminate any wars there will always be needing to apply for asylum in other countries.

 There needs to be a refugee processing centres in Indonesia, Australia and other parts of SE asia close to medical and other facilities where people can safely apply for asylum then be promptly processed and sent to the various wealthier nations in the regions such as Aus, NZ, Malaysia, Singapore or back home if they aren’t genuine refugees, this would stop the bulk of these suicidal boat trips. 

Although maybe the aborigines should have turned back the boats back in 1788 then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.


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## Happy (21 December 2010)

noco said:


> ...
> 
> NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
> NO MORE not saying CHRISTMAS in stores and our schools,
> ...




Yes, I didn't notice other cultures and religions to re-name their Holidays to "Festive Season" so they do not offend Australians.


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## noco (21 December 2010)

Mofra said:


> If anyone is actually silly enough to believe multi-million dollar terrorist organisations will send their cells into another country via dangerous boat journey rather than just fly in, cheaply, with falsified documents, I pity them.




Obviously they are smarter than Mofra. If they come by air with passport and visa, they can be identified and tracked. Come by boat without any ID and BINGO they will most likely get through.


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## noco (21 December 2010)

donkeykong said:


> How do you expect people being persecuted by secret police in places like Iran to join this imaginary “queue”? And also if these are so called economic refugees  then why don’t they just buy a plane ticket to oz?
> 
> Why do they destroy their identity when they arrive by boat?
> 
> ...




What with spears and boomerangs? If the JAPS had taken over Australia, there would be no Aboriginals left.


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## Tink (22 December 2010)

Very refreshing to read your post FX -- Merry Christmas : )


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## boofis (22 December 2010)

Curious as to anyones opinion on why it's such a terrible thing for hopeful refugees to have to wait so long before being processed? If the claims are true that they are fleeing a life threatening, war ridden, terrible place that lead them to seek asylum then surely anything with three meals a day, a bed, amenities and roof over your head is a step up when you're guaranteed safety and survival? Became interested after seeing on the news a while back that 'activists' had kicked up a fuss over living conditions at one of the centres in WA. Take a trip through wilcannia and you'll see worse living conditions for the ordinary person living in rural Australia! And before I get jumped for asking questions with a redneckesque theme a. I don't drive a ute with stickers saying "F**k off we're full", aerials and mudflaps and b. I am pro people seeking asylum in a peaceful nation such as ours.


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## startrader (22 December 2010)

boofis said:


> Curious as to anyones opinion on why it's such a terrible thing for hopeful refugees to have to wait so long before being processed? If the claims are true that they are fleeing a life threatening, war ridden, terrible place that lead them to seek asylum then surely anything with three meals a day, a bed, amenities and roof over your head is a step up when you're guaranteed safety and survival? Became interested after seeing on the news a while back that 'activists' had kicked up a fuss over living conditions at one of the centres in WA. Take a trip through wilcannia and you'll see worse living conditions for the ordinary person living in rural Australia! And before I get jumped for asking questions with a redneckesque theme a. I don't drive a ute with stickers saying "F**k off we're full", aerials and mudflaps and b. I am pro people seeking asylum in a peaceful nation such as ours.





Good post as far as I am concerned.  It's about time a bit of common sense was brought into this debate.  Common sense doesn't seem to come into the equation with anything this Government does.  Just how ridiculous does this have to get before some serious action is taken to deter the people smuggling?  People are afraid of saying what they think so as not to get jumped on and denigrated and called "rednecks" and way worse.


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## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

Julia said:


> We hear this all the time, i.e. "as if there ever was a queue".
> There is indeed a queue, FX, and it constitutes those refugees who apply by official channels of UNHCR and have often been waiting patiently in camps , having been approved by UNHCR, only to have their potential places supplanted by those who arrive by boat.
> 
> Immigration have candidly admitted that those waiting in the camps, already checked and approved, are being pushed back in the queue as they are forced to first process the boat arrivals.
> ...



How disappointing to see you acquiescing to the xenophobia, jingosim, vilification and thinly veiled hatred of other human beings desperate for a better life for themselves and their children as vomited up by noco here.  Especially given the time of year it is.

Noco's rant belongs on a white supremist website, not on a forum like this. That anyone here gives any credence to the essence what he has said is disgraceful.

You're dreaming if you think there can ever be a situation where every desperate person will queue up in an orderly fashion, while living in abysmal conditions, in hope that they will qualify for legal immigration.  The problem with illegal migration here pales in comparison with many other countries such as in Europe and America.  In the U.S. alone, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of "illegals" (better to dehumanize them with such a tag) cross the Mexican border each day! Now that's a problem.

We have the capactity a means to deal with the "boats" without resorting to the expensive offshore prison camp approach.  What's needed are ideas, creative thinking and problem solving to develop a comprehensive strategy that does not pander to the emotive fearmongering of would be demagogs like noco while treating  people humanely.

Merry Christmas.


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## Calliope (22 December 2010)

These people have shown the sort of individual  skills and endeavour  that Australia could well use.



> MOST of us wriggle out of the womb to become Australian.
> 
> Others complete forms and pack their bags and settle in Australia under skilled migration or family reunion programs. Some will come to Australia having convinced immigration authorities that they have the readies and plenty of them.
> 
> ...




http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...nts/time_for_gillard_to_stand_up_on_refugees/


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## startrader (22 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> These people have shown the sort of individual  skills and endeavour  that Australia could well use.
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...nts/time_for_gillard_to_stand_up_on_refugees/




Is that guy who wrote the blog deranged or something?  He says "there is no policy that will stop the boats".  Hmmm, that has been proven to be a very incorrect statement.

This is thread is called "Asylum immigrants - Green Light" and the fact of the matter is that they have been given the green light.


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## noco (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> How disappointing to see you acquiescing to the xenophobia, jingosim, vilification and thinly veiled hatred of other human beings desperate for a better life for themselves and their children as vomited up by noco here.  Especially given the time of year it is.
> 
> Noco's rant belongs on a white supremist website, not on a forum like this. That anyone here gives any credence to the essence what he has said is disgraceful.
> 
> ...




FX, what a load oF CODSWADDLE YOU SPEAK. 

These illegal 'scum bags' spend $10,000 to come by boat, cost the taxpayer $80,000 per head per year to live the life of 'RILEY' in 3 and 4 star accommodation and complain if the food is not right or the air-conditioner is not working. They protest and riot if their proceesing is too slow.They could come to  Australia by air at a quarter of the cost but of course they have to have ID'S (passports and visas) and find their own accomodation.

We have homeless people in Australia who receive not even 10% of what it costs to keep  these queue jumpers. We have 3 and 4 families living in one house on Palm Is. Aboriginal settlement because both the state or federal Labor  governments have neglected them.

We have aged pensioners struggling to make ends meet with increased cost of power, water and rates. Many do not enjoy three wholesome meals a day like these llegal asylum seekers.

And and our beloved Joolya and the 'goose' could not care less. They can waste $billions of dollars on 'harebrain' schemes' like pink bats, BER, NBN,Green scheme money spent at Cancun and the generous donation of $599 million on "climate change, but they can't find enough funds to help the poor Australians. Don't forget, CHARITY BEGIND AT HOME. Bugger the asylum seekers.


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

noco said:


> These illegal 'scum bags' spend $10,000 to come by boat, cost the taxpayer $80,000 per head per year to live the life of 'RILEY' in 3 and 4 star accommodation and complain if the food is not right or the air-conditioner is not working.



I presume that, in the foul, depraved excrement you call your mind, the babies that just died at Christmas Island were also "scum bags". Your idiotic claim that detention centers are "3 and 4 star accomodation" merits no response.



> We have homeless people in Australia who receive not even 10% of what it costs to keep  these queue jumpers. We have 3 and 4 families living in one house on Palm Is. Aboriginal settlement because both the state or federal Labor  governments have neglected them.
> 
> We have aged pensioners struggling to make ends meet with increased cost of power, water and rates. Many do not enjoy three wholesome meals a day like these llegal asylum seekers.



So by pointing out that we have social problems in Australia, and pretending to care about the dilemmas of the disadvantaged (Australian only), you hope to cast yourself as a patriotic Australian by denigrating and vilifying asylum seekers with your stereotyping and paranoid xenophobia. Sorry but no amount of such obfuscation and misdirection will mask your white supremist ideology and Aussie pride jingoism.  Yours is simply a message of hate and intolerance.



> And and our beloved Joolya and the 'goose' could not care less. They can waste $billions of dollars on 'harebrain' schemes' like pink bats, BER, NBN,Green scheme money spent at Cancun and the generous donation of $599 million on "climate change, but they can't find enough funds to help the poor Australians. Don't forget, CHARITY BEGIND AT HOME. Bugger the asylum seekers.



More misdirection and off topic blather.  You have no solution for the "boats" other than incarceration, intolerance and inhumane treatment in hope that this will discourage the desperate. It's reassuring to know that your twisted and narrow view of charity is not government policy.


----------



## Julia (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> How disappointing to see you acquiescing to the xenophobia, jingosim, vilification and thinly veiled hatred of other human beings desperate for a better life for themselves and their children as vomited up by noco here.  Especially given the time of year it is.
> 
> Noco's rant belongs on a white supremist website, not on a forum like this. That anyone here gives any credence to the essence what he has said is disgraceful.
> 
> ...



And merry Christmas to you too, Fx.   I have had a lot of respect for your posts prior to this.  You've contributed a lot in your short residence at ASF.

So I was disappointed to see you succumbing to the ultra left rhetoric and finding it necessary to issue unpleasant personal insults toward those who disagree with you.

As I said before, I believe we should be able to have this discussion without anyone stooping to personal assaults and unnecessary labels.
These usually say more about the person doing the insulting than their target.


----------



## noco (22 December 2010)

Julia said:


> And merry Christmas to you too, Fx.   I have had a lot of respect for your posts prior to this.  You've contributed a lot in your short residence at ASF.
> 
> So I was disappointed to see you succumbing to the ultra left rhetoric and finding it necessary to issue unpleasant personal insults toward those who disagree with you.
> 
> ...




And so say all of us. Thank you Julia.


----------



## noco (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> I presume that, in the foul, depraved excrement you call your mind, the babies that just died at Christmas Island were also "scum bags". Your idiotic claim that detention centers are "3 and 4 star accomodation" merits no response.
> 
> 
> So by pointing out that we have social problems in Australia, and pretending to care about the dilemmas of the disadvantaged (Australian only), you hope to cast yourself as a patriotic Australian by denigrating and vilifying asylum seekers with your stereotyping and paranoid xenophobia. Sorry but no amount of such obfuscation and misdirection will mask your white supremist ideology and Aussie pride jingoism.  Yours is simply a message of hate and intolerance.
> ...




FX, don't talk crap that I have a hatred for other human beings. I brought a lady from a very poor country nearly 30 years ago to give her a better way of life from the misery she experienced. Over those years I have sponsered her two sisters and a brother who are also enjoying a better life than they had. It cost me, not the Government, plenty and I have no regrets.

John Howard had the solution and reduced the people smuggling boats to three per year and now we have, thanks to the stupid policy of Rudd and Gillard, THREE PER WEEK.


----------



## Calliope (22 December 2010)

Julia said:


> As I said before, I believe we should be able to have this discussion without anyone stooping to personal assaults and unnecessary labels.
> These usually say more about the person doing the insulting than their target.




Yes, Fx is exhibiting a lot of pent-up rage and hatred. He is not a happy little camper.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 December 2010)

noco said:


> FX, don't talk crap that I have a hatred for other human beings. I brought a lady from a very poor country nearly 30 years ago to give her a better way of life from the misery she experienced. Over those years I have sponsered her two sisters and a brother who are also enjoying a better life than they had. It cost me, not the Government, plenty and I have no regrets.




It is great to hear stories like this noco. My Dad helped out a teenager in a similar situation about 30 years ago. A military dictator's goons had killed most of his family and had threatened to kill him as well. Dad sponsored him and helped him to stay in Australia. He ended up going to Uni, getting honours in his undergrad and finishing his MBA. He is now successfully self-employed and a fantastic survivor. The kind of stories you don't hear much about these days.


----------



## doctorj (22 December 2010)

For me, there are two seperate issues.  The first is the people that profit from this - the 'people smugglers'.  They are breaking the law and endangering lives.  They should be found and prosecuted.

The second issue is those they smuggle.  People attach all sorts of labels to these people (religion, economic etc), without knowing a great deal about them beyond the broad stereotypes.  For me, if they're desperate enough to spend days or weeks in a dodgy looking boat on open ocean (and bring their wives and young children along for the ride), they've probably got a good reason.  Why else would they risk their lives?

Do they all have grounds for asylum? I don't know.  What I do know is that people who have so much in life and have so little information about the situation shouldn't be so quick to judge.


----------



## Chris45 (22 December 2010)

In 2006 Vivian Solon received *$4.5 million* compensation because of an Immigration Dept. mistake that led to her unlawful deportation back to the Philippines where she was born.

In 2008 Cornelia Rau received *$2.6 million* compensation because she was unlawfully detained at Baxter Detention Centre as a consequence of her not taking her schizophrenia medication.

Now, Muhamed Haneef has reportedly received *about $1 million* compensation because he was falsely accused of terrorism and subsequently wrongfully detained for a few weeks.

If you want to become an instant millionaire in this country, simply get yourself wrongfully detained in one of our comfortable detention centers for a while and then get one of our many bleeding heart lawyers to kick up a fuss. It’s easy!

A few weeks ago there was a report on TV about a Somali woman and her *nine* children (also refugees) being evicted from their rented house and she was having trouble finding suitable accommodation on her *$1,000 per week* ($52,000 per year) Centrelink handout.

Is it little wonder people are so desperate to get here by whatever means they can? Why pay your way in Indonesia when you can enjoy Australia's generous welfare? I don’t know how many of our bleeding heart refugee advocates pay taxes (I suspect many of them are either on welfare themselves or living off the refugee industry) but the hard working taxpayers of this country must surely be dismayed when they see how generous our Santa Claus governments are with their tax dollars.


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

Julia said:


> I was disappointed to see you succumbing to the ultra left rhetoric and finding it necessary to issue unpleasant personal insults toward those who disagree with you.



If by "ultra left rhetoric" you mean having compassion, empathy and some regard for disadvantaged and desperate people then guilty as charged.  The only "insults" (accurate descriptors in my view) are directed at those who deserve nothing better given their ultra right rhetoric. Unlike others here, I don't take pleasure in demonizing and denigrating asylum seekers.



> As I said before, I believe we should be able to have this discussion without anyone stooping to personal assaults and unnecessary labels.



This thread is not a discussion Julia, it's a beat up and rant against desperate human beings who are not in a postition to defend themselves here. To bad you can't see that.  BTW, I usually vote conservative.


----------



## startrader (22 December 2010)

My personal asylum seeker experience:

A few years ago when the Howard Government had its hard line Asylum seeker policy I felt sorry for the refugees and decided that I would do something, in a small way, to show that not all Australians wee uncaring, uncompassionate people.  So I made contact through some organisation with a refugee living in Sydney.  I picked him up from where he was living in Cabramatta one day and took him on a family BBQ.  He was from a Middle Eastern country (I can't even remember which one now - I think it was Iraq).  The gentleman had been refused permission to stay and was appealing the decision and I think the whole process had been going on for a few years and he was able to live in the community while it was going on.

We had a pleasant time but the thing that surprised me was when he told me that he had a son who was living here already as a permanent resident.  The son was 35 and had six children.  When I asked what his son did I was told "nothing".  I thought there must have been a physical reason for this but when I asked about that I was told that, no, there was none.  I think that what surprised me the most was he gave me the impression that his son wasn't going to be getting a job.  35 years of age, 6 kids, no job, no intention of getting one - not good.

That was my first and last experience as a bleeding heart.


----------



## breaker (22 December 2010)

Maybe Fx Trader could open his house to a few refugees, our welfare should go to our own no others who wont assimilate

White supremist is a bit harsh but if that what it takes to stop me and my kids learning the Koran then so be it


----------



## Calliope (22 December 2010)

startrader said:


> I think that what surprised me the most was he gave me the impression that his son wasn't going to be getting a job.  35 years of age, 6 kids, no job, no intention of getting one - not good.
> 
> That was my first and last experience as a bleeding heart.




As Chris45 so aptly put it;



> Is it little wonder people are so desperate to get here by whatever means they can? Why pay your way in Indonesia when you can enjoy Australia's generous welfare? I don’t know how many of our bleeding heart refugee advocates pay taxes (I suspect many of them are either on welfare themselves or living off the refugee industry) but the hard working taxpayers of this country must surely be dismayed when they see how generous our Santa Claus governments are with their tax dollars


----------



## Calliope (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> If by "ultra left rhetoric" you mean having compassion, empathy and some regard for disadvantaged and desperate people then guilty as charged.




And full of bulls**t.


----------



## noco (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> If by "ultra left rhetoric" you mean having compassion, empathy and some regard for disadvantaged and desperate people then guilty as charged.  The only "insults" (accurate descriptors in my view) are directed at those who deserve nothing better given their ultra right rhetoric. Unlike others here, I don't take pleasure in demonizing and denigrating asylum seekers.
> 
> 
> This thread is not a discussion Julia, it's a beat up and rant against desperate human beings who are not in a postition to defend themselves here. To bad you can't see that.  BTW, I usually vote conservative.




So tell me FX, why is the United Nations Secretary telling the Australian Government to send these asylum seekers back to where they came from and why don't you sponser one or two yourself? I guess that would be out of your league to do something humane for desperate people after all your hype and rhetoric.

I've done my bit so why don't you.


----------



## sails (22 December 2010)

noco said:


> So tell me FX, why is the United Nations Secretary telling the Australian Government to send these asylum seekers back to where they came from ...




Here we go FX - here's t

I edited the post and then ASF timed out and took most of my original post with it...


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> And full of bulls**t.



Thanks for your insightful and intelligent critique, just what I expect from the red neck brigade here.


----------



## ColB (22 December 2010)

> So tell me FX, why is the United Nations Secretary telling the Australian Government to send these asylum seekers back to where they came from and why don't you sponser one or two yourself? I guess that would be out of your league to do something humane for desperate people after all your hype and rhetoric.
> 
> I've done my bit so why don't you.




Ouch!!  You surely must be getting a bit bruised by now FX.  

Nothing wrong with putting your own views forward as to why we should be taking all these 'Illegals" but it would be a good idea not to attack the individual just because you don't like their view.

Hope your trading is not suffering as a result of this discussion as you seem somewhat unbalanced at the moment


----------



## sails (22 December 2010)

Will try again - here is the link to the article re the UN's statement which I posted in another thread:



sails said:


> This is exactly what some of us have suspected and now confirmed by the UN:
> 
> *Send detainees home, says UN*
> 
> ...




I feel we need to differentiate between those that are genuine refugees and those that are not.  There are those who go through the proper channels and are approved as refugees but seems that many have to wait.

Those arriving by boat seem to have no papers so there is no knowing really whether they are genuine or not.

It seems that the UN believed that large numbers of these boat arrivals are not refugees and thereby are trying to enter this country illegally.


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

sails said:


> Surely we need to differentiate between those who are legitimate and those who are trying to enter illegally.  There are refugees who have gone about this legally and through the correct sources and seems they are being made to wait.  Presumably they have papers and they are approved.  Then there are those who turn up on boats and supposedly without papers so there is no way of knowing whether they are genuine refugees or not.  Apparently the UN believes most arriving by boat are not genuine.



Where exactly did I say that we should not differentiate?  If the people arriving here are processed and deemed not to be legitimate asylum seekers then yes, send them back to their country of origin. The problems highlighted require thoughtful solutions such as (from the article)...

"_Mr Towle ...called for greater regional co-operation and improved conditions in south-east Asia to prevent asylum seekers from making the perilous voyage from Indonesia. He said the problem had little to do with Australia's border protection policies, including a decision by Labor to scrap controversial temporary protection visas, but rather a ''protection vacuum'' throughout the region that had been forcing people to risk their lives on unseaworthy vessels._"

So the "border protection policies" here will not solve the problem. This must come as a shock to most here who, if they have a solution, prefer the offshore prison camp approach or something even more draconian.  Treat up badly and they won't come back.  Perhpas we should do what, stop feeding them, let them drown at sea or make their lives as miserable as possible while they are here (or some combination of these).  Just how low can the asylum seeker haters here stoop I wonder.


----------



## noco (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Where exactly did I say that we should not differentiate?  If the people arriving here are processed and deemed not to be legitimate asylum seekers then yes, send them back to their country of origin. The problems highlighted require thoughtful solutions such as (from the article)...
> 
> "_Mr Towle ...called for greater regional co-operation and improved conditions in south-east Asia to prevent asylum seekers from making the perilous voyage from Indonesia. He said the problem had little to do with Australia's border protection policies, including a decision by Labor to scrap controversial temporary protection visas, but rather a ''protection vacuum'' throughout the region that had been forcing people to risk their lives on unseaworthy vessels._"
> 
> So the "border protection policies" here will not solve the problem. This must come as a shock to most here who, if they have a solution, prefer the offshore prison camp approach or something even more draconian.  Treat up badly and they won't come back.  Perhpas we should do what, stop feeding them, let them drown at sea or make their lives as miserable as possible while they are here (or some combination of these).  Just how low can the asylum seeker haters here stoop I wonder.




So FX, you are finally starting to see the light. Your argument has been shot to pieces RIP.


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

ColB said:


> Ouch!!  You surely must be getting a bit bruised by now FX.



Not at all, bring it on.  Happy to mix it with the red neck brigade here since it's revealing to see how they justify their prejudice against, loathing and hatred of those "illegals".



> Nothing wrong with putting your own views forward as to why we should be taking all these 'Illegals" but it would be a good idea not to attack the individual just because you don't like their view.



Well that "view" you think I should not attack is actually quite reminiscent of fascist ideology.  I will never give such views a pass.



> Hope your trading is not suffering as a result of this discussion as you seem somewhat unbalanced at the moment



Hardly unbalanced but yes, time to get back to trading.


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

noco said:


> So FX, you are finally starting to see the light. Your argument has been shot to pieces RIP.



Just how dumb can you be noco? I have never deviated from my line of argument and none of your drivel has refuted anything I've said here.  You have succeeded though in bringing out the worst aspects of people's character here with your xenophobia and fearmongering, congratulations.


----------



## noco (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Just how dumb can you be noco? I have never deviated from my line of argument and none of your drivel has refuted anything I've said here.  You have succeeded though in bringing out the worst aspects of people's character here with your xenophobia and fearmongering, congratulations.




Thanks FX for the compliment. You don't appear to have too many agreeing with your argument though.

Have a Merry Xmas and don't let those asylum seekers get you down. It will all cease as soon as we get rid of this incapable Federal Government. Don't you worry about that!!!!!!!!


----------



## chiasm (22 December 2010)

My family and I came to Australia via boat as refugees, fleeing civil war. I always read comments on forums like this and wonder how many people commenting have ever been persecuted in their own country. I'm not talking about being a collingwood supporter, but actually having some of your family members killed and threatened with death. That's what happened with my family. My brothers and I are all professionals now and we all pay lots of taxes so that's at least 1 success story. 

If anyone is interested Anh Do wrote an easy to read book, the happiest refugee telling his story about coming to Australia. His brother by the way was young Australian of the year a few years ago for helping homeless youths...another success story


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

chiasm said:


> My family and I came to Australia via boat as refugees, fleeing civil war. I always read comments on forums like this and wonder how many people commenting have ever been persecuted in their own country.



Most likely none chiasm so yes, the fortress Australia perspective promoted by some here is largely based on ignorance and indifference. Appreciate your comments on your personal experience and glad you're part of the Australian community.


----------



## IFocus (22 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> If by "ultra left rhetoric" you mean having compassion, empathy and some regard for disadvantaged and desperate people then guilty as charged.  The only "insults" (accurate descriptors in my view) are directed at those who deserve nothing better given their ultra right rhetoric. Unlike others here, I don't take pleasure in demonizing and denigrating asylum seekers.
> 
> 
> This thread is not a discussion Julia, it's a beat up and rant against desperate human beings who are not in a postition to defend themselves here. To bad you can't see that.  BTW, I usually vote conservative.




LOL welcome to the forum FX as you might have noticed many here like serving labels but struggle on return serve with with the usual indignation of course.

Very nice to see some one put the other side of the argument along with a couple of others here.

I agree with your comments but of course vote labor  being some what left of the communist party


----------



## Julia (22 December 2010)

noco said:


> FX, don't talk crap that I have a hatred for other human beings. I brought a lady from a very poor country nearly 30 years ago to give her a better way of life from the misery she experienced. Over those years I have sponsered her two sisters and a brother who are also enjoying a better life than they had. It cost me, not the Government, plenty and I have no regrets.



Goodonya, noco.  I have worked with immigrants/refugees for nearly two decades tutoring them in English, totally voluntarily.

So FX, you are absolutely out of line in suggesting that those of us who advocate an orderly migration into this country should be described by your variously pejorative labels.  I have previously said that you are saying way more about yourself by using these insulting terms than about the people to whom you are directing the insults.



GumbyLearner said:


> It is great to hear stories like this noco. My Dad helped out a teenager in a similar situation about 30 years ago. A military dictator's goons had killed most of his family and had threatened to kill him as well. Dad sponsored him and helped him to stay in Australia. He ended up going to Uni, getting honours in his undergrad and finishing his MBA. He is now successfully self-employed and a fantastic survivor. The kind of stories you don't hear much about these days.



So good to hear, GL.  You're right in that we don't hear enough of these success stories, in a similar way to how we don't hear about all the immensely successful indigenous people who are such a credit to their people.





FxTrader said:


> If by "ultra left rhetoric" you mean having compassion, empathy and some regard for disadvantaged and desperate people then guilty as charged.  The only "insults" (accurate descriptors in my view) are directed at those who deserve nothing better given their ultra right rhetoric. Unlike others here, I don't take pleasure in demonizing and denigrating asylum seekers.



You instead seem to take pleasure in demonising and denigrating your fellow Australians and ASF members, many of whom have made substantial contributions to refugees.  You display that zealous, overblown rhetoric, so devoid of objective consideration which does so much to diminish your cause.



> This thread is not a discussion Julia, it's a beat up and rant against desperate human beings who are not in a postition to defend themselves here



The only person who is engaging in a 'beat up' and who is ranting is yourself.
It would otherwise be a rational and reasonable discussion.  You have only yourself to blame for the essence of the discussion being lost amongst your flamboyant and insulting ranting.





startrader said:


> My personal asylum seeker experience:
> 
> A few years ago when the Howard Government had its hard line Asylum seeker policy I felt sorry for the refugees and decided that I would do something, in a small way, to show that not all Australians wee uncaring, uncompassionate people.  So I made contact through some organisation with a refugee living in Sydney.  I picked him up from where he was living in Cabramatta one day and took him on a family BBQ.  He was from a Middle Eastern country (I can't even remember which one now - I think it was Iraq).  The gentleman had been refused permission to stay and was appealing the decision and I think the whole process had been going on for a few years and he was able to live in the community while it was going on.
> 
> ...



And there are many more such similar stories.  Hence why people cross many countries and take great risks to seek asylum in this welfare driven country.





breaker said:


> Maybe Fx Trader could open his house to a few refugees,



Now there's a very reasonable suggestion, FX.   Are you prepared to house some of these people in your own home?  A simple yes or no would be appropriate.



> our welfare should go to our own no others who wont assimilate



Yes, and it's shameful the numbers of Australians who are homeless and destitute.
We cannot provide accommodation, meals and medical care for them apparently.

But a multicultural society is overall a good thing, and I think most Australians are in favour of immigration at reasonable levels.  It's just the denial of "a fair go" which pushes back the applications of those who have applied to come here through proper channels because of the boat arrivals which is so offensive to many of us.


----------



## Tightwad (22 December 2010)

"If you want to become an instant millionaire in this country, simply get yourself wrongfully detained in one of our comfortable detention centers for a while and then get one of our many bleeding heart lawyers to kick up a fuss. It’s easy!"

Yeah those detention centres have been one big party... those detained can't handle the stress, they are cutting themselves and self-harming, mental illness is the norm, many suicidal.  Staff have had problems handling the stress from seeing their misery, and have quit.

How does one get themselves wrongfully detained anyhow?


----------



## FxTrader (22 December 2010)

Julia said:


> So FX, you are absolutely out of line in suggesting that those of us who advocate an orderly migration into this country should be described by your variously pejorative labels.  I have previously said that you are saying way more about yourself by using these insulting terms than about the people to whom you are directing the insults.



Your lack of insight and misrepresentation here is surprising.  I never said that orderly migration is undesirable, just unrealistic, it can only ever be a goal.  As I said, the descriptive terms I've used to describe the comments and attitudes exhibited by certain individuals here are largely well deserved. Labeling them as insults does not diminish their accuracy or appropriateness given what has been said.



> You instead seem to take pleasure in demonising and denigrating your fellow Australians and ASF members, many of whom have made substantial contributions to refugees.  You display that zealous, overblown rhetoric, so devoid of objective consideration which does so much to diminish your cause.



Pure nonsense, I denigrate and demonize no one, they denigrate and diminish themselves with their own comments here. How amusing, "devoid of objective consideration" is exactly what you and the other fortress Australia advocates here are guilty of.



> The only person who is engaging in a 'beat up' and who is ranting is yourself.
> It would otherwise be a rational and reasonable discussion.  You have only yourself to blame for the essence of the discussion being lost amongst your flamboyant and insulting ranting.



Excuse me but there is nothing rational or reasonable about the zenophobia, jingosim, rabid nationalism and prejudice on display in this thread. The "essence" of the discussion is bigotry and prejudice and that is definitely not lost here.



> Now there's a very reasonable suggestion, FX.   Are you prepared to house some of these people in your own home?  A simple yes or no would be appropriate.



Really Julia, do you actually think that I would fall for such a trap?  If I say no you would then try and accuse me of hypocrisy, but if I say yes then you would command me to action.  While I do give money to overseas charities, what I or you would do in our own home is frankly irrelevant.  It's how our country responds to the challenge as a nation that matters.


----------



## financialdonk (23 December 2010)

Fugazi said:


> I'm sure most will agree that to give genuine asylum seekers a chance to carry on a normal, productive life is a moral responsibility, but it's a short step from the sublime to the ridiculous.
> 
> I moved to Brissy from London nearly 3 years ago because I didn't want to bring my kids up in a place that was rapidly being over-run by economic migrants, spongers and downright criminals who's first and last words of English are 'Asylum' and 'Benefit'.
> 
> ...




Welcome to Australia, with your nice white skin, walking in off the tarmac.

Pot.Kettle.Black.

Why is ok for your to migrate to Australia when you come from a nation that is politically stable and a part of the first world but not for people who are leaving a war torn area?

Your reason for leaving Britain to come to Australia is the flimsiest excuse I have ever heard mate.  But don't worry you'll fit right in here with your racist views masquerading as political philosophy.  

It's cases like yours that are flooding Australia's immigration numbers in the 10's of thousands.  Not the 6k people who are trying to save their wives and children's lives.

(For the record I think you should be able to move freely wherever you wish as I desire that flexibility myself and as such I hope you continue to enjoy Australia.  But to deny that right to others is poor form.)


----------



## IFocus (23 December 2010)

doctorj said:


> For me, there are two seperate issues.  The first is the people that profit from this - the 'people smugglers'.  They are breaking the law and endangering lives.  They should be found and prosecuted.
> 
> The second issue is those they smuggle.  People attach all sorts of labels to these people (religion, economic etc), without knowing a great deal about them beyond the broad stereotypes.  For me, if they're desperate enough to spend days or weeks in a dodgy looking boat on open ocean (and bring their wives and young children along for the ride), they've probably got a good reason.  Why else would they risk their lives?
> 
> Do they all have grounds for asylum? I don't know.  What I do know is that people who have so much in life and have so little information about the situation shouldn't be so quick to judge.




Far to sensible comments for a thread like this Doc


----------



## Tink (23 December 2010)

Aaaah finally some balance in these threads : )

Great to hear your input Chiasm


----------



## Mofra (23 December 2010)

noco said:


> Obviously they are smarter than Mofra. If they come by air with passport and visa, they can be identified and tracked. Come by boat without any ID and BINGO they will most likely get through.



Thanks for the laugh, that's the funniest thing I've read for ages Noco  *Thumbs Up*

Sad thing is, there are actually people out there dumb enough to believe that (the same ones who tend to ignore the fact that S11 aside, the major purpetrators of terrorist violence or hate are citizens of the country they reside in - including 100% of those charged in Australia).


----------



## sails (23 December 2010)

Thank you for sharing your story, Chiasm...

From that story, it seems you were one of the genuine refugees arriving by boat.

I think you will find that most raising concerns here at ASF regarding the increasing numbers of boat people have empathy for genuine refugees.  It is the apparent loopholes that anyone can destroy their papers and get set for life in Australia even if they are not a refugee.  

I believe that most genuine refugees such as yourself do welcome the opportunities in Australia and strive to be financially independent.  It is often the genuine hardship of the past that seems to build a strength of character to press on an become very successful.

However, IMO those that are not genuine are more likely to be coming here simply for the handouts and are not so likely to contribute to the economy.  They are more likely to become a burden on taxpayers who currently cannot look after our own homeless and destitute.

I am not against letting refugees come here.  I would like to see the loopholes closed that so easily let anyone in and there have been reports from the UN that those that who are not genuine are now clogging the system and actually making it difficult for the genuine refugees to come.

Chiasm, how would you have felt if you couldn't be taken into Australia in your time of need because of illegals rorting the loopholes caused by such a lax border policy?  

I would be very interested to hear your viewpoint on this...


----------



## Mofra (23 December 2010)

chiasm said:


> My family and I came to Australia via boat as refugees, fleeing civil war. I always read comments on forums like this and wonder how many people commenting have ever been persecuted in their own country. I'm not talking about being a collingwood supporter, but actually having some of your family members killed and threatened with death. That's what happened with my family. My brothers and I are all professionals now and we all pay lots of taxes so that's at least 1 success story.
> 
> If anyone is interested Anh Do wrote an easy to read book, the happiest refugee telling his story about coming to Australia. His brother by the way was young Australian of the year a few years ago for helping homeless youths...another success story



Thanks for your contribution chiasm (Much respect to for Doctor's mature and sentible contribution).

It is interesting that so many people demonise or try and dehumanise asylum seekrs, and thne try and claim economic factors as the reason "they're all buldegers living off wlefare, etc etc."

Then they go on to admire the most expensive processing option available, the Pacific solution, and talk the Liberals up for their policies. If money is the issue, why the most expensive solution? Much of Howard's efforts in "stopping the boats" related directly to the domestic situation in Sri Lanka and the ceasefire between the Tamils & the Sri Lankan government. Two of the three largest sources of asylum seekers are Iraq & Afghanistan - two areas best by wars that Howard pushed for, again at great economic cost. 
If the economic argument was applied, why not discuss the increase in taxpayers as a proportion of our aging population? If we can cast aspersions on all people as beign "blidgers" on the basis of a single anecdote, why can't someone also mention that our richest person (Frank Lowy) was also a refugee? 

I wonder at what point some of the hard right will actually admit that fear and xenophobia are actually contribution factors in many of their arguments? I may not agree with the manner of some of FX's posts on this thread (although to be fair he has been baited & insulted just as readily) but there are many poiints he has made that have not yet been countered.

And I will restate, for the record, this is an area both governments have failed in - without any sort of regional cooperation (and as a priority, closer ties with Indonesia) the will be no solution, nor any real progress, in managing the issue.


----------



## Calliope (23 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Thanks for your insightful and intelligent critique, just what I expect from the red neck brigade here.




You don't have to be a redneck to recognize hum-bug. There is no solution to the boat problem until we short circuit the smugglers and process their customers at the point of departure and fly the genuine ones into Australia.

Of course a lot of cushy jobs on Christmas Island would have to be transferred to places that are not as pleasant.


----------



## noco (23 December 2010)

Now there's a very reasonable suggestion, FX. Are you prepared to house some of these people in your own home? A simple yes or no would be appropriate.

Julia, did you really believe you would  receive an appropriate answer from a MONOMANIAC.

The brother of my lady I sponsered in 1990 was given a two year computer/computer course, was fed and clothed during that time at my expense. I doubt FX could ever come close to any of that feat.

Typical hype, criticism and an attempt to discredit  those who do good things but do nothing themselves.


----------



## Chris45 (23 December 2010)

Tightwad said:


> Yeah those detention centres have been one big party... those detained can't handle the stress, they are cutting themselves and self-harming, mental illness is the norm, many suicidal.



Nothing gets the gullible bleeding-hearts jumping up and down with anguish more than the sight of a “refugee”, looking as miserable as possible, clutching the wire fence with his lips sewn together.

But remember, every day many people, especially young people, willingly “self-mutilate” by having metal rings, studs and dumbbells pierce their lips, tongues, noses, nipples, navels and other parts I won’t mention, all in the name of fashion. (Anyone for a “Prince Albert”?). Maybe sewing lips is not such a big deal once you overcome the fear of it.

You’d no doubt be horrified if a story emerged that “refugees” were continually stabbing themselves with needles, but people willingly endure this process every day in tattoo parlors.


----------



## Chris45 (23 December 2010)

This is the sort of thing that concerns some of us about Muslim “asylum seekers”:

*The latest WikiLeaks revelation: 1 in 3 British Muslim students back killing for Islam and 40% want Sharia law*



> A survey of 600 Muslim students at 30 universities throughout Britain found that 32 per cent of Muslim respondents believed killing in the name of religion is justified. A U.S. diplomatic cable from January 2009 quoted a poll by the Centre for Social Cohesion as saying 54 per cent wanted a Muslim party to represent their world view in Parliament and 40 per cent want Muslims in the UK to be under Sharia law.
> 
> The outreach plan for British Muslims was published a month after a cable that revealed that while the community had grown to more than 2 million, unemployment rates were higher among Muslim men and women than in any other religion.
> 
> Muslims were also found to have the highest disability rates - with 24 per cent of men and 21 per cent of women claiming a disability - while the cable also cited statistics claiming Muslims were also the most likely group to be unavailable for work or not actively seeking employment due to illness, their studies or family commitments.


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## Garpal Gumnut (23 December 2010)

I have hesitated from entering this thread as I have many friends who have migrated both through traditional and "boat" means and am aware that emotion may sometimes overcome common sense. 

This I believe has happened to the Fairfax Media and "the Monthly" ( should it be called PMT?) in their relentless push for an open acceptance of refugees from the north.

The basic issue that most native born Australians have with illegal boat migration has bugger all to do with where they come from, who they are or what their religion is.

We are a Non-Asian-Pacific nation in an Asia-Pacific region. 

Darwin and Townsville were bombed during WW2 by the Japs.

There is a genuine fear of unregulated migration from the countries north of Australia to our shores. 

This is particularly felt by populations living in Queensland, NT and WA, as during WW2 a plan was hatched in case of invasion to defend Australia along the Brisbane Line. (Google it if you read the Age or the PMT)

This is a natural and reasonable fear not addressable by logic or argument, and it needs to be respected. 

gg


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## FxTrader (23 December 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> We are a Non-Asian-Pacific nation in an Asia-Pacific region.



Asia Pacific is about an arbitrary geographic region not skin colour or ethnicity.  



> There is a genuine fear of unregulated migration from the countries north of Australia to our shores.



Since nobody here is advocating for "unregulated migration" and this will never likely occur any such fear can hardly be genuine or justified.



> This is a natural and reasonable fear not addressable by logic or argument, and it needs to be respected.



Xenophobia is never reasonable or natural. It is however taught, promoted and fostered by those who wish to manipulate opinion, others and create prejudice. Rather than being respected, it needs to countered and opposed vigorously or it will be used as justification for oppression, hatred and violence.


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## noco (23 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Asia Pacific is about an arbitrary geographic region not skin colour or ethnicity.
> 
> 
> Since nobody here is advocating for "unregulated migration" and this will never likely occur any such fear can hardly be genuine or justified.
> ...




FX, I would like to nominate you as our representative to tour as many Muslim countries as you can and preach your counter  xenophobia to the radical Muslims who have a hatred for the Western World. Tell them to stop their violence. Tell them to stop killing and maiming men, woman and children. Tell them to cease stoning their woman for minor offenses. Tell them to stop  manipulating and destroying the  Christian faith. Tell them to love infidels instead of wanting to kill them as written in Koran.  Get them to respect the Western World as you say it needs to be countered and opposed vigorously . Stop their predudice.
Do this FX and I'm sure we will have a more peaceful and stable world. Good luck in your attempt. If your game of course!!!!!


----------



## IFocus (23 December 2010)

Mofra said:


> Thanks for your contribution chiasm (Much respect to for Doctor's mature and sentible contribution).
> 
> It is interesting that so many people demonise or try and dehumanise asylum seekrs, and thne try and claim economic factors as the reason "they're all buldegers living off wlefare, etc etc."
> 
> ...





Ah Mofra and much respect to you as well


----------



## Tink (23 December 2010)

Hear Hear, I will second that IFocus, and good post FX too : )


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## Garpal Gumnut (23 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Asia Pacific is about an arbitrary geographic region not skin colour or ethnicity.
> 
> 
> Since nobody here is advocating for "unregulated migration" and this will never likely occur any such fear can hardly be genuine or justified.
> ...




I have not ever stated that these are my opinions.

However you need to consult Mr and Mrs Shoppingtrolley.

As they say in The Castle, its an Australian movie you may not be familiar with, "yer dreamin"

gg


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## Julia (23 December 2010)

Tink said:


> Hear Hear, I will second that IFocus, and good post FX too : )




Tink, I may have missed it, but I've never seen a definitive post from you actually setting out your beliefs on this issue.

You frequently do, as above, and endorse someone else, but I'd be interested to hear what you actually think should be happening, and why.


----------



## Tightwad (23 December 2010)

Chris45 said:


> Nothing gets the gullible bleeding-hearts jumping up and down with anguish more than the sight of a “refugee”, looking as miserable as possible, clutching the wire fence with his lips sewn together.
> 
> "But remember, every day many people, especially young people, willingly “self-mutilate” by having metal rings, studs and dumbbells pierce their lips, tongues, noses, nipples, navels and other parts I won’t mention, all in the name of fashion. (Anyone for a “Prince Albert”?). Maybe sewing lips is not such a big deal once you overcome the fear of it.
> 
> You’d no doubt be horrified if a story emerged that “refugees” were continually stabbing themselves with needles, but people willingly endure this process every day in tattoo parlors.





You're implyng that it's all a big act.  I don't really see the people working in these places and deciding they can't stand to see it any more, as being 'gullible'.  These places are factories for mental illness.

Imprisoned people cutting themselves has little to do with what some young people are doing in the name of fashion and recreation (and whether it would horrify me or not).


----------



## Tink (24 December 2010)

Julia said:


> Tink, I may have missed it, but I've never seen a definitive post from you actually setting out your beliefs on this issue.
> 
> You frequently do, as above, and endorse someone else, but I'd be interested to hear what you actually think should be happening, and why.




Hi Julia, 

I have already said my view a few times in this forum, not necessarily this thread, that I dont understand why the carry on for the boat people when people are arriving by planes in droves. 

Its all a political stunt in my view.

I agree that the smugglers should be prosecuted but the boat people are the innocent ones as I feel they are only looking for a better life.

Who would jump in a rickety old boat and travel to Australia and put their family in danger. They would have to be desperate.


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## noco (24 December 2010)

Tink said:


> Hi Julia,
> 
> I have already said my view a few times in this forum, not necessarily this thread, that I dont understand why the carry on for the boat people when people are arriving by planes in droves.
> 
> ...




These people fly from their home country to Jarkarta (Indonesia) and Kuala Lumpa (Malaysia) and then pay another $10,000 to people smugglers to bring to Australia in leaky wooden boats. Why don't fly direct to Australia?


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## Tink (24 December 2010)

Whichever way they come Noco, they still get processed the same. Probably easier for them via plane.


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## noco (24 December 2010)

Tink said:


> Hi Julia,
> 
> I have already said my view a few times in this forum, not necessarily this thread, that I dont understand why the carry on for the boat people when people are arriving by planes in droves.
> 
> ...




Tink, for the first time this year, boat-borne asylum seekers in Australia will outnumber those by aiecraft according to a report in the Austraian Newspaper today.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...m-queue-pays-off/story-fn59niix-1225975665987


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## FxTrader (24 December 2010)

noco said:


> FX, I would like to nominate you as our representative to tour as many Muslim countries as you can and preach your counter  xenophobia to the radical Muslims who have a hatred for the Western World. Tell them to stop their violence. Tell them to stop killing and maiming men, woman and children. Tell them to cease stoning their woman for minor offenses. Tell them to stop  manipulating and destroying the  Christian faith. Tell them to love infidels instead of wanting to kill them as written in Koran.  Get them to respect the Western World as you say it needs to be countered and opposed vigorously . Stop their predudice.
> Do this FX and I'm sure we will have a more peaceful and stable world. Good luck in your attempt. If your game of course!!!!!



While I would not normally bother to respond to such frivolous and asinine drivel, your mention of Mulisms warrants a response.  Jumping on the bandwagon of anti-Mulism sentiment here, you and another bigot are now drawing religious persuasion into this topic.  While I definitely have a view on the liabilities of religious belief, that's another topic entirely. Create another topic here to expand on your scaremongering and prejudice against Muslims.


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## sails (24 December 2010)

Tink said:


> Whichever way they come Noco, they still get processed the same. Probably easier for them via plane.




Tink, do you mean to come by airlines?  If so, they would have to have passports and other paperwork to leave their international airpoirt to be able to board a place to come to Australia which is preferable IMO.

It seems the boat people destroy their paperwork so there is no way of knowing who we are letting in to live here.  Boat arrivals instantly get air-conditioned accomodation, food, free medical, legal aid, etc.  Maybe some are willing to take the two day boat trip for a life time of support for them and then ultimately their families.  They even get paid to have babies in this country.  The $10,000 boat trip plus a few grand in other plane fares would be a small outlay for a potential life time of support.

So the processing for boat people simply turning up paperless can't possibly be the same as those trying to get asylum here the right way.  However, it seems they are being made to wait for lengthy periods, presumably because the boat arrivals are jumping the queue and getting instant monetary benefits from the day they put foot on Christmas Island.

Let me restate, again... I am not against genuine refugees.  I am concerned at the potential loopholes that let anyone lob onto our shores claiming refugee status whether or not that is the case.  And without paperwork, there is no history.  We could be taking in wanted criminals for all we know.  Surely we should be preventing people from rorting our system when Australia is currently struggling to look after her own needy people.


----------



## sails (24 December 2010)

Mofra said:


> ...And I will restate, for the record, this is an area both governments have failed in - without any sort of regional cooperation (and as a priority, closer ties with Indonesia) the will be no solution, nor any real progress, in managing the issue.




Mofra, you may be right in that more should be done with Indonesia.  

However, I am losing confidence daily that this current labor government is capable of fixing the problem.  In fact, for that matter, any sort of problem.  Seems that everything they touch is a mess.

At least Howard brought back security to our borders.  It might not be the best solution, but at least he did something which is better than we have now.  

There surely must be some boundaries to stop those who simply want to rort our system.  The UN article clearly shows that many boat arrivals are not refugees.


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## noco (24 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> While I would not normally bother to respond to such frivolous and asinine drivel, your mention of Mulisms warrants a response.  Jumping on the bandwagon of anti-Mulism sentiment here, you and another bigot are now drawing religious persuasion into this topic.  While I definitely have a view on the liabilities of religious belief, that's another topic entirely. Create another topic here to expand on your scaremongering and prejudice against Muslims.




 FX, once again your personal insinuations is the only way you know how to respond when you have painted yourself into a corner.

You can call me all the names you like it but will be like pouring water on a duck's back. Name calling is for school kids. 

This xenophobia you keep on harping about should be a two way street. Unfortuneatly, because you are now caught up in your own web you have forgotten or don't want to know about the other side of the story and what is going on in the real world.


----------



## noco (24 December 2010)

sails said:


> Tink, do you mean to come by airlines?  If so, they would have to have passports and other paperwork to leave their international airpoirt to be able to board a place to come to Australia which is preferable IMO.
> 
> It seems the boat people destroy their paperwork so there is no way of knowing who we are letting in to live here.  Boat arrivals instantly get air-conditioned accomodation, food, free medical, legal aid, etc.  Maybe some are willing to take the two day boat trip for a life time of support for them and then ultimately their families.  They even get paid to have babies in this country.  The $10,000 boat trip plus a few grand in other plane fares would be a small outlay for a potential life time of support.
> 
> ...




As John Howard said,"we will decide who comes to Australia, not the people smugglers".

And as you say, there could be criminals fleeing their counrty or even terrorists. We should be selective and give preference to people with trade skills or professionals, not parasites who have always intended to live off the Australian tax payer.

Get rid of this incompetent government and give a new gpvernemnt the chance to clean up the mess.


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## FxTrader (24 December 2010)

noco said:


> You can call me all the names you like it but will be like pouring water on a duck's back.



The words and attitudes you display here are that of a prejudiced bigot, plain and simple. Any objective person reading your drivel would reach the same conclusion. The english language gives us words to adequately describe the attitudes and beliefs you've expressed here and they include bigotry, prejudice and xenophobia.  Of course you're unconcerned about your bigotry, bigots never are by definition.



> This xenophobia you keep on harping about should be a two way street. Unfortuneatly, because you are now caught up in your own web you have forgotten or don't want to know about the other side of the story and what is going on in the real world.



Actually xenophobia is a trait, one you possess in spades, and good to see that you don't deny it.  Actually I am interested in the "other side of the story" as told by the people risking their lives to get here. I am already well informed as to the prejudices, fears and loathing of asylum seekers from the likes of your ilk.


----------



## startrader (24 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> While I would not normally bother to respond to such frivolous and asinine drivel, your mention of Mulisms warrants a response.  Jumping on the bandwagon of anti-Mulism sentiment here, you and another bigot are now drawing religious persuasion into this topic.  While I definitely have a view on the liabilities of religious belief, that's another topic entirely. Create another topic here to expand on your scaremongering and prejudice against Muslims.




This abuse that you have been directing to people on this forum for a while now is way out of line.  None of your fellow posters deserves such a torrent of abuse when their only offence is to have opinions that differ to yours!

It is rather strange that you have such love and compassion for people who live on the other side of the world who you don't even know and yet display such hatred and venom to other posters on this forum.


----------



## noco (24 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> The words and attitudes you display here are that of a prejudiced bigot, plain and simple. Any objective person reading your drivel would reach the same conclusion. The english language gives us words to adequately describe the attitudes and beliefs you've expressed here and they include bigotry, prejudice and xenophobia.  Of course you're unconcerned about your bigotry, bigots never are by definition.
> 
> 
> Actually xenophobia is a trait, one you possess in spades, and good to see that you don't deny it.  Actually I am interested in the "other side of the story" as told by the people risking their lives to get here. I am already well informed as to the prejudices, fears and loathing of asylum seekers from the likes of your ilk.




LOL FX. have a Merry Xmas and don't have too many nightmares over those asylum seekers. Tony will sort it as soon as he takes the reigns.


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## noco (24 December 2010)

startrader said:


> This abuse that you have been directing to people on this forum for a while now is way out of line.  None of your fellow posters deserves such a torrent of abuse when their only offence is to have opinions that differ to yours!
> 
> It is rather strange that you have such love and compassion for people who live on the other side of the world who you don't even know and yet display such hatred and venom to other posters on this forum.




startrader, MONOMANIACS generally get around with only one eye closed and are not interested in other peoples opinion. 
They close that one eye so they can't see or don't want to see what is happening in our OWN backyard with thousands of homeless people living on the streets and  pensioners who would love to have the same treatment as these illegal queue jumpers.
I say this incomponent Labor Government, "PUT UP THE FULL HOUSE SIGN".


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## FxTrader (24 December 2010)

startrader said:


> This abuse that you have been directing to people on this forum for a while now is way out of line.  None of your fellow posters deserves such a torrent of abuse when their only offence is to have opinions that differ to yours!



Leaping to the defense of the indefensible are you now startrader, nice try.  If by abuse you mean references to bigotry and prejudice, then I make no apologies.  If someone comes here and clearly displays such attitudes then you suggest this should be respected as legitimate opinion do you?  Yes, intolerant hate and fear mongers in various guises have opinions, but I am not going to be pleasant about such attitudes.  In general I have attacked revolting attitudes like blatant prejudice not individuals, try and keep that in mind as it's an important distinction.




> It is rather strange that you have such love and compassion for people who live on the other side of the world who you don't even know and yet display such hatred and venom to other posters on this forum.



Let me correct you, I hate no one here but yes I despise bigotry, prejudice and xenophobia in all their various forms and so should any right minded person.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (24 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> The words and attitudes you display here are that of a prejudiced bigot, plain and simple. Any objective person reading your drivel would reach the same conclusion. The english language gives us words to adequately describe the attitudes and beliefs you've expressed here and they include bigotry, prejudice and xenophobia.  Of course you're unconcerned about your bigotry, bigots never are by definition.




Yes, the English language has many words to describe various attitudes and situations. You have chosen the word _'bigot'_ which adequatly describes what you have displayed of yourself in your intolerance of a few other posters' opinions. 

If we are to be a society of tolerant people - not just of other cultures - but of each other and opinion, whether right or wrong, we do need to be polite. You could make your point more effectively by being polite. I share your concern for the issue of racism, xenophobia etc, which can be found in any culture in any country. 

What I would like to see in Australia is a more caring attitude toward foreigners and a more caring attitude toward those who live and were born here regardless of race - Australians. Having said that it is important to see less nonsense and less perceived negligent management of the situation where people feel they can come by boat without an ID to emigrate.


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## FxTrader (24 December 2010)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Yes, the English language has many words to describe various attitudes and situations. You have chosen the word _'bigot'_ which adequatly describes what you have displayed of yourself in your intolerance of a few other posters' opinions.



While I accept that you have a point here purely with regard to definitions, there is a nuance to consider. When opinions are expressed that foment fear, hatred, loathing and reinforce prejudice then yes, I am quite intolerant of such opinions and I think justifiably so considering the historical impact of such attitudes.



> If we are to be a society of tolerant people - not just of other cultures - but of each other and opinion, whether right or wrong, we do need to be polite. You could make your point more effectively by being polite. I share your concern for the issue of racism, xenophobia etc, which can be found in any culture in any country.



In general I agree that being polite can be more persuasive in many situations.  However, those who have chosen that route here with the likes of noco have hit a brick wall. Would be demagogs need to be shot down in flames lest their offensive  intolerant rants and fearmongering gain traction.

Say I told you that in my "opinion" human slavery is appropriate, useful and I own a few slaves of my own who need to be beaten from time to time. Would you then politely disagree with me and respect my opinion or would you react with revulsion and codemnation? I suspect the latter.  There are simply circumstances when politeness is an inadequate response.


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## noco (24 December 2010)

This is what is happening Sweden since allowing so many Muslim refugees into there counrty. There is also conflict between Muslims and Christians, where Muslims have become violent towards Christians. This could well happen here in Australia or any other Western Country for that mattter. There is determination to convert the world into an Isalamic state. Islam is not a religion; it is an ideology. 

http://www.thelocal.se/29086/20100917/


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## bellenuit (24 December 2010)

I suggested previously that Australia should consider withdrawing from the Refugee Convention as it was written for a post WWII scenario and is unsuited for the problems of today. However, as every country must do its share, we should double our refugee intake, but only of those who come on our terms. I am sure this would prove less costly than the current scenario and at the same time help twice as many people.

It seems that others are thinking along those lines.  This from today's The Australian (it also debunks the myth that there are no queues):

_He (Mirko Bagaric, a Deakin University law professor who spent five years as a member of the Refugee Review Tribunal) has proposed a dramatic solution: more than doubling the offshore refugee intake to 30,000 annually while at same time permanently refusing refugee status "to any person who arrives on our shores unannounced"._

*Jumping asylum queue pays off*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...m-queue-pays-off/story-fn59niix-1225975665987


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## Julia (24 December 2010)

Thanks, bellenuit.  I was about to also quote Prof Bagaric's remarks which make a lot of sense.

FX, suggest you read the link bellenuit has supplied.  His background and experience make for an informed view.

And, btw, if you seriously think you are positively promoting your cause with your insults and pejorative language, you are mistaken.

Just out of interest, could you describe what first hand contacts you have had with asylum seekers/refugees et al?   What have you personally done or contributed in a first hand way to these people?


----------



## noco (24 December 2010)

This link proves devout Muslims who have migrated to Australia legally or illegally will never follow our laws, only there own. They are here for one reason only and that to infiltrate our society, just as what is happening to Sweden and inevitably in the rest of Europe. Just as communisn unsuccessfully tried to do in the 50's and 60's, Islam is doing now. They have no time table, so if it takes 100 years is of no concern to them.
They will set up their schools and mosques and be elected to Government to gain power.

http://www.disclose.tv/forum/can-a-devout-muslim-be-an-australian-new-zealander-american-t14298.


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## sails (25 December 2010)

Noco - the link you posted didn't work - I think the .html was missing.

Try this one: Can a devout Muslim be an Australian,New Zealander,American?


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## noco (25 December 2010)

sails said:


> Noco - the link you posted didn't work - I think the .html was missing.
> 
> Try this one: Can a devout Muslim be an Australian,New Zealander,American?




Thanks sails. Yes that is the one. I don't know what went wrong before.


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## bellenuit (25 December 2010)

noco said:


> This link proves devout Muslims who have migrated to Australia legally or illegally will never follow our laws, only there own.
> http://www.disclose.tv/forum/can-a-devout-muslim-be-an-australian-new-zealander-american-t14298.




Noco, that raises an interesting question that I have often have difficulty with. If you were to ask a committed Christian would they place the state before their Christian God, I think most (of committed Christians) would answer No. They would act according to the tenets of their faith in preference to the requirements of the state.

However, although this could be viewed as little different to how committed Muslims would act, I think what differentiates committed Muslims from committed Christians is the actual tenets themselves.

If one were to take what is regarded as a controversial issue in Australia today, namely abortion, many Christians (of the RC persuasion in particular) see abortion as irreconcilable with their beliefs and will oppose any legislation that makes abortion legal. So you will have arguments as to whether RCs like Tony Abbott are beholden to their electorate or to Rome when it comes to discussions on such issues. However, controversial as the abortion issue may be, it does not threaten the core values that make Australia, Australia. If this is the most controversial issue we have to contend with in regards to the secular/religious divide, then things are OK IMO.

However, when it comes to the Islam, I believe the core values that define Islamic beliefs are fundamentally at odds with what makes Australia, Australia. We are not talking about peripheral issues that can be overcome with one side willing to go a bit more than half way, we are talking about issues that go to the heart of what makes Australian society the society that most of us want to live in. 

When people are told that they cannot make certain assertions about the Islamic religion  because that is seen as offensive, even though the assertions are made without animosity and backed up by verifiable argument, then our core value of freedom of expression is being attacked. 

Not only is freedom of expression a core value of our society, but having freedom of expression means that as a society we will be intolerant of injustice wherever or whenever we see it. Why are those who express outrage of the Sudanese woman being whipped or the Iranian woman being sentenced to death by stoning or the Pakistani teens being acided because they didn't want to be married to old aged men, not Muslims, even though those outrages are closer to home for them, so to speak. Almost every Australian condemns directly, or through their representative media, the atrocities throughout the world that we find obnoxious to a civilised society, whether it be perpetrated by those we align to or oppose (with some exceptions). But when it comes to the crimes of Islamic societies, its adherents are most likely to be silent and the few that speak out are most likely to be ostracised than supported by their religious kin.  

I have a few Muslim friends and we argue over these issues from time to time. What always strikes me is their demand for respect for their rights, but they never seem to see any need for them to respect the rights of others. The Koran always seems the final arbitrator. However, those I know are all fundamentally good people and contribute as much to Australia as any other immigrant I know. However, I really believe that their contribution will only be positive so long as they are a small minority of the population. I believe that should they ever attain sufficient power to  change our society, we would lose so much that this would not be a country worth living in.


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## Joe Blow (25 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> I hate no one here but yes I despise bigotry, prejudice and xenophobia in all their various forms




Fair enough. However, I think this thread is getting a little too personal and I don't think it's helping the level of debate.

Just a general reminder to all to stick to the issues and keep things civil. I don't want this thread to get out of hand.


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## noco (25 December 2010)

Joe Blow said:


> Fair enough. However, I think this thread is getting a little too personal and I don't think it's helping the level of debate.
> 
> Just a general reminder to all to stick to the issues and keep things civil. I don't want this thread to get out of hand.




Thanks Joe Blow. Name calling does not hurt me in the least. If that is the only way some ASF members know how to intimdate and slience other AFS members opinion, then they have lost the plot.


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## noco (25 December 2010)

bellenuit said:


> I suggested previously that Australia should consider withdrawing from the Refugee Convention as it was written for a post WWII scenario and is unsuited for the problems of today. However, as every country must do its share, we should double our refugee intake, but only of those who come on our terms. I am sure this would prove less costly than the current scenario and at the same time help twice as many people.
> 
> It seems that others are thinking along those lines.  This from today's The Australian (it also debunks the myth that there are no queues):
> 
> ...




After WW11, migrants who were allowed into Australia under the refugee convention were mainly English, German and Italian trades people with great skills and all made an outstanding contrbution to Australia. I know from personal experience, having worked with many of them.

What concerns me more so now is we have asylum seekers entering Australia illegally without skills and some with very little education and these people must become a burden on the Australian tax payer. How long will it take to educate and train these people to a useful standard and what will be the cost.

My main concern is the plot by the Islamic world to infiltrate into the Western World to force their ideology onto one and all here in Australia as it now appears to be happening in Sweden. And I might add they are doing it by intimidation.


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## Vicki (25 December 2010)

> I have a few Muslim friends and we argue over these issues from time to time. What always strikes me is their demand for respect for their rights, but they never seem to see any need for them to respect the rights of others. The Koran always seems the final arbitrator. However, those I know are all fundamentally good people and contribute as much to Australia as any other immigrant I know. However, I really believe that their contribution will only be positive so long as they are a small minority of the population. I believe that should they ever attain sufficient power to change our society, we would lose so much that this would not be a country worth living in.




I've had similar experiences.
My nieghbours are muslims & in my part-time job I work for an islamic family.

Some of the most generous, giving people I know,.... as we've had hard times in recent years, & their extended family and community always includes us in their functions.
Also insist that we take top brand clothes & shoes for the girls [hand me downs from their daughters], some of these items had hardly been worn, as some of these families are very wealthy...My girls were wrapped!

Our fridge is always full with their home-cooking [can't pronounce the names of the dish's]

But there are some stark differences between our cultures.
I've noticed a very stern "It's their way or the highway" sort of attitude in regards to other religions or cultures.

Odd, because I know some of them are very happy to have their daughters safely over here, were our culture sees to it that they enjoy education & equility etc...Unlike some female family members born in islamic countries.
I have to do all their paper work at their business as these older girls can bearly read or write in any language....grade 3 I think.

Big difference when their teenage aussie-born daughters help out..Very intelligent, literate & articulate in two Languages.
Unfortunately for them though, there's still pressure to marry older guys from muslim states though...Australian men are just out of the question, unless they're from a similar family back-ground.

I've joked around a bit with them with regards to why nobody wants to live in some of these Islamic countries...And they laugh along and fully agree..

Anyway, that's my two bob's worth on the subject.

Vicki


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## breaker (25 December 2010)

Enjoy christmas day while you can...it might not be here much longer


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## FxTrader (25 December 2010)

Joe Blow said:


> Fair enough. However, I think this thread is getting a little too personal and I don't think it's helping the level of debate.
> 
> Just a general reminder to all to stick to the issues and keep things civil. I don't want this thread to get out of hand.



Go to see that you're monitoring this thread.  Frankly Joe, I fail to see how the "level of debate" can get much lower given the views being expressed here.

The content of this thread is in essence promoting the prejudices, hatred and irrational fears of some here to the level of personal virtue. It panders to the more vile aspects of human character.  In case you haven't noticed, a new theme has emerged around anti-Muslim sentiment now.

My question to you Joe is, at what point do you say enough is enough, where do you draw the line?  Just how offensive, revolting, debasing and repugnant do the views in general chat have to be before you take action?  Can extremists and extreme viewpoints of whatever variety post here without fear of censorship?  How is the content of this thread in any way enhancing the reputation or standing of ASF? Why allow ASF to be a podium for the kind of views being expressed in this thread?

You need not be concerned about any further posts from me in this thread as I no longer wish to wallow in the cesspool of, and podium for, the promotion of bigotry and prejudice it has become.


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## noco (25 December 2010)

Vicki said:


> I've had similar experiences.
> My nieghbours are muslims & in my part-time job I work for an islamic family.
> 
> Some of the most generous, giving people I know,.... as we've had hard times in recent years, & their extended family and community always includes us in their functions.
> ...




A great story Vicki which adds to my belief that if they are not willing to marry an Australian and intergrate into the Austraian way of life, does that not mean they are and always will be a sectarian society and not multiculutral?

I have no doubt what you are saying they are nice people who love living in Australia (who wouldn't) and are pleased to have that protection for their daughters , but they must all study the Koran and pray 5 times a day. If they don't follow the teachings of the Koran, they can and will be persecuted by their elders no matter where they live. Could you ask the question why they won't marry Australian men.  I would appreciate your follow through on this matter with your Muslim friends and indeed look forward to your response. I am most genuinely interested. If I am wrong, I will apologise.

When the English, Italian and German immigrants came to Australia after WW11, they were a multicultural race who were prepared to marry and interact with Australians.


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## noco (25 December 2010)

From information I have learned from Google, there appears to be at least three catagories of the Islamic faith.

a) the Extremist who misinterpret the Koran and are hell bent on using what ever means they have to intimidate the non believers with suicide bombings of public transport, buildings or public gatherings. They kill and maim innocent men, women wnd children and claim responsobility for their indecent act.

b) the moderate who are true believers of the Koran and are content to follow the teachings without being extreme or violent.

c) the moderate who are not true believers but follow the Koran because of the fear of persecution if they don't.

Which brings me back to the point of these illegal asylum seekers. Of the 6000 odd who have arrived in the last two years, how many belong to the Islamic faith and to which category do they belong?  a),b) or c).

Having lived through the threat of Hitler's Third Reich Nazi regime, the threat of a Japanese invasion in 1942 and the communist infiltration of Australia in the 50's and 60's, I believe I am justified in fearing the rise of Islam and what this great country of ours will be like in 10, 20 or 50 years from now.

To be branded a bigot, spreading fear and xenophobia does not concern me in the least. What does concern me is how Islam will affect my children, grand children and great grand children in the future.


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## pixel (25 December 2010)

noco said:


> From information I have learned from Google, there appears to be at least three catagories of the Islamic faith.
> 
> a) the Extremist who misinterpret the Koran and are hell bent on using what ever means they have to intimidate the non believers with suicide bombings of public transport, buildings or public gatherings. They kill and maim innocent men, women wnd children and claim responsobility for their indecent act.
> 
> ...



 Well put, noco; 
And I think you're 75% correct. Why only 75%? Because I'd like to add a category 
d) consisting of well-educated, usually professional men and women, who live by the spirit of the Q'ran, but recognise the strict rules about forbidden food, prescribed gymnastics, and hating all non-muslims for what they are: Rules reflecting needs and attitudes of the times long past. 

Why were Jews and Arabs in ancient times told not to eat pork and mussels? Because they "go off" very quickly and can cause food poisoning. In an environment without refrigeration, it's far easier to cloak some basic hygienic truths in pious mumbo-jumbo than educate the uneducated masses of the time.
Unfortunately, today's uneducated masses, by sticking to their ancient lifestyle, deny their children any chance of advancement, so they still can't afford a fridge and have to stick to those superseded rules - a vicious circle that keeps them trapped.

Likewise, if you tell them to get off their donkey and do some pushup exercises - who will listen? But tell them they have to do the same bums-and-push-ups five times a day as a prayer routine - that might just work. 
Those who opened their eyes to modern times, surely realised the benefits of doing sport, working out in gyms, at suitable times NOT restricted by ancient strait jackets.

Once in their lives, the tribesmen of old were also told to broaden their horizon and visit Mecca: What a brilliant campaign to promote tourism! 
But in today's age, don't forget to visit other places: Rome, London, Chennai, Beijing, Yokohama! Open your eyes and see that we're all HUMANS! Many of my friends, who grew up with the Islamic or Jewish faith, have married German or Australian women and fall into category d)

In the Stone Age, defending a tribe's possession of a patch of moist dirt in an otherwise arid desert may have improved the tribe's chances of survival. Keeping their women subjugated and do horrible things to them if they seemed attracted to a hunk from another tribe - yeah, it also improved the survival chances; not of the fittest, but who needs to be fit if every bumpkin is guaranteed an afterlife of eternal bliss - as long as he has "faith" and believes in promises of Paradise, reinforced by threats of Hell as the only alternative.
Calling such a blinkered mindset "Culture" is a blatant misnomer. Accepting intolerant and hostile attitudes in the name of tolerance and liberal multiculturalism, is turning the very same compassion, tolerance, and liberty against ourselves. Unless we recognise the perversion and work towards equal education and integration of all newcomers, our acceptance of all comers, no questions asked, no allegiance to Australia first, everything else therafter, can only end in self-destruction.

If anybody would like to get a handle on the background of religious beliefs, maybe even reconcile divergent views, I strongly recommend you get hold of a copy of Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land". To me, it's been an absolute eye opener. And it is amazing, how easy it becomes afterwards to "grok" another person's upbringing and maintain friendship with Indians, Chinese, Persians ... *
Of course it requires mutual respect and tolerance from both sides.*


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## Dukey (25 December 2010)

noco said:


> From information I have learned from Google, there appears to be at least three catagories of the Islamic faith.
> 
> a) the Extremist who misinterpret the Koran and are hell bent on using what ever means they have to intimidate the non believers with suicide bombings of public transport, buildings or public gatherings. They kill and maim innocent men, women wnd children and claim responsobility for their indecent act.
> 
> ...




I would much rather hear someone say " I'm am concerned by the rise of fundamentalism - of any creed"...

as far as I'm concerned fundamentalist christians are just as dangerous as anyone. Or even fundamentalist politicians or nationalists like that Nth korean D!c&head.

If you were to visit the asylum seeker prisons (and they ARE essentially prisons - lets not  make it pretty with political correct words like 'detention centres' - detention was what i got when i didn't do my homework at school!) .... but if you were to check i suspect you might find that very few asylum seekers are fundamentalists of any kind. much more likely - the reason they left their country was that they refused to be 'fundamental enough' for the regime (ie taliban or the like), making then a walking target.

Asylum seekers are no-ones enemy.
asylum seekers are NOT illegal. - (ie. it is not illegal to seek asylum).
Australias share of asylum seekers is very small.
The ones I've seen work harder than the whatever significant percentage of useless dole bludgers that we carry through their charmed life in this country.

Fundamentalist islam is a definite threat. but waging war on all of islam would be madness, as would be assuming all muslims are crazy fundamentalists.
We need moderate muslims on our side - and branding them as 'dangerous' etc will not help.

Anyway - I'm not gonna get into an argument or waste any more of my christmas eve on this ... but thats my opinion... for what it's worth.
-D

.... Merry X-mas all.


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## Vicki (25 December 2010)

> I have no doubt what you are saying they are nice people who love living in Australia (who wouldn't) and are pleased to have that protection for their daughters , but they must all study the Koran and pray 5 times a day. If they don't follow the teachings of the Koran, they can and will be persecuted by their elders no matter where they live. Could you ask the question why they won't marry Australian men. I would appreciate your follow through on this matter with your Muslim friends and indeed look forward to your response. I am most genuinely interested. If I am wrong, I will apologise.




Hi guys,
Spoke with my muslim freinds today & ran some of the q's past them/her.

O.k. where do I start?..[This's in Her words]..An Albanian Muslim women..who had an arranged marrage at 16...a happy one.

Aussie men are defenately out of the question, because they don't share their values.

In their case, being of Albanian decent, any male suiter has to be from Albanian stock & also a family they know & respect.

The mans family ask permission from the females family for their consent to Marrage.
I think the aussie-born girls do get a bit of a say who they choose ultimately.
But, there is still considerable pressure from the family [Father,Males etc.]

If permission is given, then the couple can date for a year whilst being shaparoned.
No sex etc.
The female can't even enter the males family home before marrage.

They have a HUGE wedding, lots of money & gifts, [I've seen it,30k wring] which is paid for by the grooms family, whilst the brides family pay only for their guests.

After marrage, it is tradition for the bride to live with the grooms family [they have massive homes].

Now an Interesting twist I found out today.
My muslim friends' oldest daughter seiv', 17, was asked for marrage by another family, who later changed their mind,  [because the brides family had a little disagreement regarding her age & start'n a family, which is expected within a year.]

Well, rather than being kept apart, the couple, who appeared to be in love, kind of eloped...In their eyes....Because they ran off to Sydney for a weekend.

After the copping of abuse from both sides when they got back, 'cause they assumed they had sex....They were promptly married...NO CHOICE!!!!

And the brides family had to pay for everything [a 250k wedding], on top of the 'diary', maybe as punishment?

The daughter now lives with her husbands family.

Now religion....

They fast during ramadan & Byraam...they believe in Abraham same as us.
Some choose to Visit Mecca, which  I think is required at least once.

They fast, among other reasons, to clense their bodies etc.
Some in their community will have a goat butchered by someone with the correct credentials & rituals etc. & share this amongst the community, especially less fortunate families.

They don't prey at work,  as I have witnessed with another muslim collegue.
But, all family members at home, are expected to several times a day.

Another observation whilst in their home, after tak'n my shoes off, the women are litterally ordered around by any male member of the family...Get me a drink..get this get that, do this, do that!

Anyway, hope that helps.

Vicki
p.s.If Australia continues with a large imigration policy. then like it or not, we're just going to have to embrace such cultures & eventually become less of a majority.


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## Julia (25 December 2010)

Vicki, if you ask your Muslim friends why they came to Australia, what do they say?

i.e. Australia is a long way from Albania.  What was the attraction?

And if you were further to ask them whether they believe they need to adopt the Australian way of life if they are to truly be accepted here, what would be their response?


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## Julia (25 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> You need not be concerned about any further posts from me in this thread as I no longer wish to wallow in the cesspool of, and podium for, the promotion of bigotry and prejudice it has become.



Quite astonishing how FX's lack of insight does not allow him to perceive the irony of the above statement in how it applies to the intolerance he shows toward his fellow Australians.

Prejudice is not confined to any particular group.  Extremism exists in all directions.


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> Go to see that you're monitoring this thread.  Frankly Joe, I fail to see how the "level of debate" can get much lower given the views being expressed here.
> 
> The content of this thread is in essence promoting the prejudices, hatred and irrational fears of some here to the level of personal virtue. It panders to the more vile aspects of human character.  In case you haven't noticed, a new theme has emerged around anti-Muslim sentiment now.
> 
> ...




As a person who is favour of migration to Australia I find your classification of those at the other extreme from you, as offensive, as you find them.

I personally will be pleased not to have to read your thoughts on this thread.

gg


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## Vicki (25 December 2010)

Hi Julia,
I'll run it by them, as they're a pretty straight talk'n mob.

I know bits & pieces about their history.
There was a lot of civil unrest, fighting violence & segregation in that part of the world I think?..[From what I know it's sounds like basket case].

When they came oz. 30 odd yrs ago, I'm pretty sure they had absolutely noth'n...apart from their own community?

They all lived together, bought land in Dandenong Vic. & started a nursury, which the extended family still runs...They now have 6 florist shops [one of which I'm a part of],

On top of that, they own shops at tullamarine airport, nummerous properties & acerage holdings & still continueing.

The buggers work 6-7 days a week [women as hard or harder than the men], babies are looked after by grandparents or similar  during the days, & if you have the 'flu'....tough, keep work'n!

As for what we think of them?...Their attitude is a little crude, but they don't care..
In their eye's, we're just a bunch of rowdy whinging disorganised & sometimes amoral people!

Yes I know, you have to just bight your tongue sometimes, when you're work'n for'm!

But sometimes Fatima, is curious about our life-styles, [when her husband isn't around] He's off driving his new Ferarri..no b.s...He made me sit in it..it's rediculous, but it's his choice.

That's when she lets her hair down a little, when she sees the way us aussie women joke 'round, even with the male employees in shopping centre, & the occaisional naughty joke that makes her blush...lol

These women, are machines, that seldom have time for fun, just work work work, then cook, sometimes whilst she's at work...I **** you not!

Anyway, I'll ask her your specific Q's when I see her next.

Vicki


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## Joe Blow (26 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> My question to you Joe is, at what point do you say enough is enough, where do you draw the line?  Just how offensive, revolting, debasing and repugnant do the views in general chat have to be before you take action?  Can extremists and extreme viewpoints of whatever variety post here without fear of censorship?  How is the content of this thread in any way enhancing the reputation or standing of ASF? Why allow ASF to be a podium for the kind of views being expressed in this thread?




I draw the line at overt hatemongering. I'm fairly liberal minded and I don't censor views based on whether or not I agree with them. I step in only when personal attacks/insults are thrown around or when someone is espousing particularly hateful views. Otherwise I'm fairly hands off in the General Chat forum.

I like to encourage robust discussion and sometimes that involves unpopular or minority views being expressed, on both sides of the political spectrum. So just because I tolerate a lot of what is expressed in threads on ASF it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with or approve of particular points of view. It just means that I think people have a right to express them.


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## FxTrader (26 December 2010)

Joe Blow said:


> I draw the line at overt hatemongering. I'm fairly liberal minded and I don't censor views based on whether or not I agree with them. I step in only when personal attacks/insults are thrown around or when someone is espousing particularly hateful views.



So then thinly veiled or barely concealed hatemongering (as aptly demonstrated in this thread IMO) can pass under your radar? Do personal attacks/insults and vilification directed at persons or peoples outside ASF, like referring collectively to asylum seekers as "scum bags" warrant your attention?  If some here clearly display xenophobic traits, is it an insult to refer to them as xenophobic or does that constitute a personal attack or "name calling"?

What exactly constitutes "particularly hateful views" in your view, just how far can one go here? Are such boundaries aribitrary or well defined?



> I like to encourage robust discussion and sometimes that involves unpopular or minority views being expressed, on both sides of the political spectrum. So just because I tolerate a lot of what is expressed in threads on ASF it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with or approve of particular points of view. It just means that I think people have a right to express them.



Since this is a closed community forum under your total control, the only "rights" people have here are those you grant to them.  Being liberal minded and tolerant is great up to a point until it's exploited by others here to promote their fear and loathing of others, their creed or culture.  IMO the comments in this thread create an ugly precedent for ASF, one that potentially does harm to its reputation.  Platforms for people to promote their xenophobia and prejudices exist elsewhere and need not be a feature of a forum called Aussie *"Stock"* Forums.


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## IFocus (26 December 2010)

noco said:


> When the English, Italian and German immigrants came to Australia after WW11, they were a multicultural race who were prepared to marry and interact with Australians.




In WA 90% of Italian families would ostracize any female member that married outside of the community it was the 2nd / 3rd generations that allowed marriage of daughters into the wider community and you will still find many joke about marring a good Italian boy.


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## ColB (26 December 2010)

> *Original Post by FX at 12.40pm ONLY YESTERDAY!!
> 
> "...You need not be concerned about any further posts from me in this thread* as I no longer wish to wallow in the cesspool of, and podium for, the promotion of bigotry and prejudice it has become.




FX Will you just honor what you say you will do!  [See line 1]

Clearly the majority don't agree with your views and your adding nothing further to support your view other than drivel


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> So then thinly veiled or barely concealed hatemongering (as aptly demonstrated in this thread IMO) can pass under your radar? Do personal attacks/insults and vilification directed at persons or peoples outside ASF, like referring collectively to asylum seekers as "scum bags" warrant your attention?  If some here clearly display xenophobic traits, is it an insult to refer to them as xenophobic or does that constitute a personal attack or "name calling"?
> 
> What exactly constitutes "particularly hateful views" in your view, just how far can one go here? Are such boundaries aribitrary or well defined?
> 
> ...




What you have to realise fxt is that people who do not necessarily agree with your basketweaving, citycentric,  left wing opinions are not necessarily xenophobes or racist. 

You really are a bit over the top mate. 

Grow up , mature and engage in intelligent debate. You are a one person left wing Tea Party.

gg


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## Joe Blow (27 December 2010)

FxTrader said:


> So then thinly veiled or barely concealed hatemongering (as aptly demonstrated in this thread IMO) can pass under your radar?




I haven't been following this thread in any great detail to be honest but it was brought to my attention a few days ago. I usually respond to reported posts, as do the moderators as that is the usual way we are notified of questionable posts.



FxTrader said:


> Do personal attacks/insults and vilification directed at persons or peoples outside ASF, like referring collectively to asylum seekers as "scum bags" warrant your attention?




If I had to censor a post every time someone with any kind of public profile was called a "scum bag" I would have very little time to do anything else. Politicans are routinely called "scum bags" here, as are others in the public eye. It's not an obscene term, nor is it a racial epithet. It can be used to describe anyone for any reason. I have not seen any posts in this thread where anyone has been called a "scum bag" purely on the basis of their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. However, I must admit to not having read all of the posts in this thread. 



FxTrader said:


> If some here clearly display xenophobic traits, is it an insult to refer to them as xenophobic or does that constitute a personal attack or "name calling"?




I don't see why it's necessary to refer to them at all. You can certainly describe their views as xenophobic if you feel that they are. But as soon as people start insulting and labelling each other things tend to go tit for tat until it gets out of hand and the debate/discussion degenerates to the point that it is no longer useful or constructive.



FxTrader said:


> What exactly constitutes "particularly hateful views" in your view, just how far can one go here? Are such boundaries aribitrary or well defined?




Yes, such boundaries are arbitrarily defined. Every act of moderation is a judgment call. The overt vilification of groups based on race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation is censored but discussion of issues relating to immigration are not. 

Some here think I allow too much, while others think there is too much censorship. Threads are closed regularly when they get out of hand and this one is certainly a candidate for that. I try and allow for robust discussion with a variety of views presented and hope that those here at ASF can participate in a mature, civil and respectful debate. It doesn't always work out that way, but surprisingly it does most of the time.



FxTrader said:


> Since this is a closed community forum under your total control, the only "rights" people have here are those you grant to them.  Being liberal minded and tolerant is great up to a point until it's exploited by others here to promote their fear and loathing of others, their creed or culture.  IMO the comments in this thread create an ugly precedent for ASF, one that potentially does harm to its reputation.  Platforms for people to promote their xenophobia and prejudices exist elsewhere and need not be a feature of a forum called Aussie *"Stock"* Forums.




The General Chat forum is for the discussion of all issues that are not directly related to the stock market or trading/investing. When it comes to moderation I try and aim for a middle ground that may not please everyone all the time but allows for issues to be discussed from a variety of perspectives. Overt racism and vilification are censored but I have not seen overtly racist statements made in this thread as yet. Perhaps I have missed them? Criticism is different from vilification and it is possible to be critical of groups of people without vilifying them.


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## noco (27 December 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What you have to realise fxt is that people who do not necessarily agree with your basketweaving, citycentric,  left wing opinions are not necessarily xenophobes or racist.
> 
> You really are a bit over the top mate.
> 
> ...




GG, I guess we have to tolerate all types on the ASF who have different opinions on a particular thread and whilst some of us can be extreme in our views on certain subjects, we all need to accept other ASF members argument without being personally critical.
We also have some members who are adamant that their view is the only one and that everyone should fall in behind and if you don't, then intimidation often takes place to silence those who oppose. We also have members who can't accept defeat and must have the last word to prove their point. 
I trust since Joe Blows intervention on this particular thread, we can now continue to have constructive debate with the civility we all desire and deserve.


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## albaby (27 December 2010)

well said both noco and garpal and many thanks to joe for allowing a robust discussion.


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## noco (27 December 2010)

And so the bebate continues with absolutely no action from this incompetent Gillard Labor Government. How many more asylum seekers have to sacrifice their lives before a new policy is implimented.  

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rs-compassion/story-fn59niix-1225976419807and so the


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## startrader (27 December 2010)

bellenuit said:


> I suggested previously that Australia should consider withdrawing from the Refugee Convention as it was written for a post WWII scenario and is unsuited for the problems of today. However, as every country must do its share, we should double our refugee intake, but only of those who come on our terms. I am sure this would prove less costly than the current scenario and at the same time help twice as many people.
> 
> It seems that others are thinking along those lines.  This from today's The Australian (it also debunks the myth that there are no queues):
> 
> ...




I don't think we should double our refugee intake at all.  I think that the Liberal Party's policy should be re-introduced, which would stop the boats from coming.  The situation we have now with the sheer number of boat people coming in is entirely a problem of the Labor Government's making, a problem which did not even exist before they got into power and which could easily be solved by going back to the Liberal policy which worked.

The boat numbers have been steadily increasing since Labor came to power and the more we adjust our position to accommodate more people, the more people we are going to get.


----------



## noco (27 December 2010)

startrader said:


> I don't think we should double our refugee intake at all.  I think that the Liberal Party's policy should be re-introduced, which would stop the boats from coming.  The situation we have now with the sheer number of boat people coming in is entirely a problem of the Labor Government's making, a problem which did not even exist before they got into power and which could easily be solved by going back to the Liberal policy which worked.
> 
> The boat numbers have been steadily increasing since Labor came to power and the more we adjust our position to accommodate more people, the more people we are going to get.




Yes startrader I agree with your sentiments. The problems that concerns me most of all(and don't get me wrong for I do believe in immigration in a controlled and orderly way) is :-

a) the $80,000 per head per year cost to the tax payer and for how long.
b) the element arriving without passport or some ID could have criminal records or even with terrorist intentions. It is well known we have sleeping cells of terrorist in Australia.
c) there could be a mixed class of people entering without trade skills or of professional ability to make a worth while contribution to society.
d) the threat of Islamic infiltration similar to what has happened in Sweden and other European countries.  
e) the loss of life that has happened in venturing on the high seas in unseaworthy boats.
f) the inequality between our homeless, indigenous and pensioners compared to the much higher concessions given to asylum seekers by our government.

The Labor government must change their policy and do it fast.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 December 2010)

noco said:


> Yes startrader I agree with your sentiments. The problems that concerns me most of all(and don't get me wrong for I do believe in immigration in a controlled and orderly way) is :-
> 
> a) the $80,000 per head per year cost to the tax payer and for how long.
> b) the element arriving without passport or some ID could have criminal records or even with terrorist intentions. It is well known we have sleeping cells of terrorist in Australia.
> ...




Noco, I certainly preferred the Howard Government policy on migration and refugees, and agree totally with your sentiments.

It is unfair to have these people being abused by unscrupulous Indonesian boat owners, and unfair to us to have them dumped on our shores. 

gg


----------



## Calliope (27 December 2010)

Noco, I came across a Law that governs people like Fx;

*Alinsky's Rule For Radicals* 
*



			Those who are most moral are farthest from the problem.
		
Click to expand...


*


----------



## noco (27 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> Noco, I came across a Law that governs people like Fx;
> 
> *Alinsky's Rule For Radicals*




Shhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! Maybe we should let sleeping dogs lie.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> Noco, I came across a Law that governs people like Fx;
> 
> *Alinsky's Rule For Radicals*




Thanks Calliope, you've given me links to a man I knew nothing about with radical libertarian ideals. 

I wonder how he would have approached the problems of mass illegal migration. I'll delve into his works.

gg


----------



## pixel (27 December 2010)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It is unfair to have these people being abused by unscrupulous Indonesian boat owners, and unfair to us to have them dumped on our shores.



 The unfairness lies one stage further back:
It is unfair to stand idly by when militant hordes wage war of oppression against sections of their own people. That is where the "unfairness" starts, and that is where it must be stopped.
frankly, I find it bemusing. when I see able-bodied young men coming to our shores, claiming asylum and requesting that our young men and women protect them from the wild animals in their own countries. How many of them are enlisting, get a good training, and go back to join the fight? Speaking the language, knowing the lie of the land and customs, they ought to be far more effective and efficient "instructors" to their budding security forces. And it can't be any more dangerous than hitting the open seas in a wooden nutshell to try and get to Ashmore or Christmas Island?
Coming to think of it, they may find even greater incentive to rid their country of pests, if they know that women and children are finding temporary asylum in Australia and will join them back home as soom as the job is done.


----------



## startrader (27 December 2010)

pixel said:


> The unfairness lies one stage further back:
> It is unfair to stand idly by when militant hordes wage war of oppression against sections of their own people. That is where the "unfairness" starts, and that is where it must be stopped.
> frankly, I find it bemusing. when I see able-bodied young men coming to our shores, claiming asylum and requesting that our young men and women protect them from the wild animals in their own countries. How many of them are enlisting, get a good training, and go back to join the fight? Speaking the language, knowing the lie of the land and customs, they ought to be far more effective and efficient "instructors" to their budding security forces. And it can't be any more dangerous than hitting the open seas in a wooden nutshell to try and get to Ashmore or Christmas Island?
> Coming to think of it, they may find even greater incentive to rid their country of pests, if they know that women and children are finding temporary asylum in Australia and will join them back home as soom as the job is done.




Unbelievably good point!  I was thinking something along the same lines lately and I find it very surprising that I have never heard anyone make this point before.  I would hazard a guess that in answer to your question about how many are enlisting, the answer is probably "none".


----------



## Julia (27 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> Noco, I came across a Law that governs people like Fx;
> 
> *Alinsky's Rule For Radicals*



Interesting suggestion.  Before I decided it was useless to further engage with FX I'd been considering asking him what actual personal contact he had had with asylum seekers, and further what he personally had done to advantage them.

If you're still around, FX, the answers to the above would be interesting.

Further, the point that so many of us have made repeatedly, i.e. about the homeless and disadvantaged in our society, was brought home in the 7.30 Report this evening with some of the realities of our own homeless people depicted in all its reality.

This is what many on the Left are missing, i.e. that we so ignore and fail to assist our own Australian citizens who have fallen on hard times, whilst we offer full board, meals, all medical and dental assistance, plus later social welfare to people about whom we have little knowledge and whose culture and ideology is very different from our own.

Our hundreds of thousands of homeless Australians are sleeping under bridges whilst asylum seekers are complaining if their air conditioning is less than 100% functional.

I heard a radio report a couple of days ago which described the Christmas Day in the various detention centres.  It encompassed a visit from Santa, christmas presents for all, and some special food.

Perhaps these people deserve every bit of this.  I simply don't know.

But in the meantime, we are dreadfully failing our own often mentally ill and otherwise disadvantaged people, and that's immensely offensive to me considering the billions the government is wasting in so many directions.





startrader said:


> Unbelievably good point!  I was thinking something along the same lines lately and I find it very surprising that I have never heard anyone make this point before.  I would hazard a guess that in answer to your question about how many are enlisting, the answer is probably "none".



 The point has been made many times before.  That does not lessen its validity.


----------



## Vicki (27 December 2010)

> Quote Originally Posted by pixel View Post
> The unfairness lies one stage further back:
> It is unfair to stand idly by when militant hordes wage war of oppression against sections of their own people. That is where the "unfairness" starts, and that is where it must be stopped.
> frankly, I find it bemusing. when I see able-bodied young men coming to our shores, claiming asylum and requesting that our young men and women protect them from the wild animals in their own countries. How many of them are enlisting, get a good training, and go back to join the fight? Speaking the language, knowing the lie of the land and customs, they ought to be far more effective and efficient "instructors" to their budding security forces. And it can't be any more dangerous than hitting the open seas in a wooden nutshell to try and get to Ashmore or Christmas Island?
> Coming to think of it, they may find even greater incentive to rid their country of pests, if they know that women and children are finding temporary asylum in Australia and will join them back home as soom as the job is done.




Good on you pixel, for saying what a lot of us are thinking.

Maybe the priminister could bring about such a policy, that if you [able bodied young men] want asylum for their families, from oppression that our young men & women are fighting & die'n, to defeat, in their home countries...Then I think it only fair, that the same should requested from them.
They could then be focussed on what has to be done, rather than worry about their families safety.

Maybe some decent progress & co-operation could be achieved in places like Afgahnistan, where it appears people are weary of committing to the Western forces, for fear of reprisals from Taliban etc.

Only way in my view, of hav'n any chance of success there, is the true support of their ordinary people!
If they truly want to have change, then they have to committ for it to happen.

Meanwhile I feel awful when I see & hear of innocents being shot & bombed etc.
And our soldiers being put in harms way.

Vicki


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2010)

pixel said:


> The unfairness lies one stage further back:
> It is unfair to stand idly by when militant hordes wage war of oppression against sections of their own people. That is where the "unfairness" starts, and that is where it must be stopped.
> frankly, I find it bemusing. when I see able-bodied young men coming to our shores, claiming asylum and requesting that our young men and women protect them from the wild animals in their own countries. How many of them are enlisting, get a good training, and go back to join the fight? Speaking the language, knowing the lie of the land and customs, they ought to be far more effective and efficient "instructors" to their budding security forces. And it can't be any more dangerous than hitting the open seas in a wooden nutshell to try and get to Ashmore or Christmas Island?
> Coming to think of it, they may find even greater incentive to rid their country of pests, if they know that women and children are finding temporary asylum in Australia and will join them back home as soom as the job is done.




Pixel this may explain a little by Dr William Maley about the Afghans. 



> Why do refugees from Afghanistan continue to seek protection in other parts of the world?
> The reasons are complex, and reflect the interaction of state disintegration, political
> mobilisation based on ethnic and sectarian social cleavages and a criminalised economy, and
> gross human rights violations. I shall discuss each of these in turn. It is important to note
> ...




http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/docs/resources/reports/malley-afghan-2.pdf


----------



## pixel (28 December 2010)

IFocus said:


> Pixel this may explain a little by Dr William Maley about the Afghans.
> 
> http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/docs/resources/reports/malley-afghan-2.pdf



 none of which explains why Australian men and women should risk their lives if Afghanis, of whatever ethnicity, aren't prepared to fight at least with them.

IMHO, the UN declarations of human rights missed one important point:
*Freedom, respect, peace*ful existence should be every person's rights; but just like love, they *cannot be demanded. They have to be earned*.


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2010)

pixel said:


> none of which explains why Australian men and women should risk their lives if Afghanis, of whatever ethnicity, aren't prepared to fight at least with them.
> 
> earned[/B].




Australians are fighting in Afghan because of the US alliance 


The Afghans are fighting because that's what they have always done since before the time of Alexander the Great. 

The majority of Afghan refugees were Hazaras because they were getting butchered


----------



## Calliope (28 December 2010)

IFocus said:


> The majority of Afghan refugees were Hazaras because they were getting butchered




Is that so?



> Following the 11 September 2001 attacks on the United States, British and American forces invaded Afghanistan, and removed the Taliban from power and effectively saved the Hazaras from ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Taliban. Since then, the situation for Hazaras in Afghanistan has changed drastically and has much improved in a very short time. Today, due to the NATO involvement, Hazaras enjoy much more freedom and equality than ever before.* Hazaras can now pursue higher education, enroll in the army, and have top government positions.*



Wikipedia


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> Is that so?
> 
> 
> Wikipedia




Excellent its all good send them back 



> He says 11 Hazaras were decapitated and left to rot on the side of the road in a recent massacre in Uruzgan province.
> 
> "It's indeed very dangerous for Hazaras. This is something which seems to have been completely overlooked by the Government in its decision making," he said.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/17/3014280.htm

More about those nasty boat people



> Afghan Refugees Building New Lives In Australia
> 
> Hazara refugees in Australia have a hard-working reputation, borne out of years of hardship.




This surprised me



> Government figures show more than 17,000 people in Australia were born in Afghanistan; Hazaras make up about five percent of that number.




http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Afghan-Refugees-Building-New-Lives-In-Australia-106603463.html


----------



## namrog (28 December 2010)

Has come to mind that when it was usefull, it was alright for the Afghans to come here, suppose that's why the Ghan is called so...I'm guessing it couldn't have been done without em...
So why not find a similar job for them now that could be a win - win for all, for example building a water pipeline from the northern teritory to the southern states, similar to the work for the dole programme.. ?   while their applications are being processed...and those that qualify stay, and those that don't go home....

Sometimes, the hard black or white approach needs to be tempered....


----------



## noco (28 December 2010)

namrog said:


> Has come to mind that when it was usefull, it was alright for the Afghans to come here, suppose that's why the Ghan is called so...I'm guessing it couldn't have been done without em...
> So why not find a similar job for them now that could be a win - win for all, for example building a water pipeline from the northern teritory to the southern states, similar to the work for the dole programme.. ?   while their applications are being processed...and those that qualify stay, and those that don't go home....
> 
> Sometimes, the hard black or white approach needs to be tempered....




Yeah I guess it could work. It's all down hill from NT to Adelaide.


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2010)

namrog said:


> Has come to mind that when it was usefull, it was alright for the Afghans to come here, suppose that's why the Ghan is called so...I'm guessing it couldn't have been done without em...
> .




You mean the Afghans who came here long before I dare say most of the anti Afghan mob here families and made major contributions to the development of Australia. 



> Although the number of Afghans coming to Australia was small (no more than 3000) compared with other ethnic groups, their contribution to this country has been much greater than most people realise. Afghans have made a substantial contribution to South Australia and Australia but history has almost ignored them, and the role they played opening up inland Australia.
> 
> Without the Afghans much of the development of the outback would have been very difficult if not impossible. Whole communities, towns, mining establishments, pastoral properties and some well known explorations in the interior have been made successful because of their contributions.




Bugger me they were very successful that's not right 



> Many of these Afghans did extremely well in their chosen business. Abdul Wade had four hundred camels and sixty men working for him. Fuzzly Ahmed worked the Port Augusta - Oodnadatta  line for many years before moving to Broken Hill. Faiz Mahomet, who arrived at the age of 22, settled in Marree where he operated as a Fowarding Agent and General Carrier. In 1892 he moved to Western Australia and worked from the Coolgardie gold fields with his brother Tagh Mahomet.




http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2010)

Oh hang on 



> In every book which focuses on the Afghans in this country, after tracing the histories of Afghan contribution, there are further chapters entitled ‘No alien hawkers, please’ or 'The period of usefulness has passed’ or simply ‘Afghans not wanted’. By the end of the nineteenth century, racial intolerance swept across Australia directed primarily at the Chinese, the Pacific Islanders in Queensland, and the Afghans. *Acts of violence and harassment at the local level, linked with the national policies of The Immigration Restriction Act, later to be known as the White Australia policy, and refusals to grant Afghan people naturalisation (even those who had been living in Australia for up to thirty years)* gradually debilitated the Afghan community in Australia. Many Afghans were forced to leave the country and gradually the role of the camel trains was replaced by trains and trucks. The Afghan people who had contributed so much to life in opening up the outback to Euro-Australians were rewarded for their work with harassment and exclusion.




http://www.dulwichcentre.com.au/afghan-histories-in-australia.html


----------



## namrog (28 December 2010)

IFocus said:


> You mean the Afghans who came here long before I dare say most of the anti Afghan mob here families and made major contributions to the development of Australia.
> 
> http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm




When it comes to things like the development of Australia, I guess it all depends on how far back you want to go IFocus, It never fails to amuses me to think that the ancestors of those anti Afghan mob here familys that you mention, most likely showed up here in boats, " uninvited themselves "  a little over two hundred years ago, or as ten pound whatever you want to call them ...They still don't realise that this is the black fellas country and we're all just guests...

But that's getting away from the main point of there being a win win situation for all here , if there is the will to follow such an idea through, sadly I can't see the current government having the vision or drive to try something so different....


----------



## Vicki (28 December 2010)

Its a very good point you make, about these tough nomadic people, & the vital contributions they made in the early days of Australia's development.

But where would most of these people live in oz now, & what sort of occupations would they have?

Like so many other imigrants in the past that we had so much work for, such as the 'Snowy hydro-electric' scheme, which employed an almost endless supply of people, & jobs/careers lasting many yrs....I not sure we have enough jobs/projects in oz now to accommodate a rapid influx of imigrants?

Vicki


----------



## Calliope (28 December 2010)

IFocus said:


> The majority of Afghan refugees were Hazaras because they were getting butchered




Did you say the *majority* Mr Focus?  Later on you quote:



> Government figures show more than 17,000 people in Australia were born in Afghanistan; Hazaras make up about five percent of that number.


----------



## Tink (29 December 2010)

Who do you work for Vicki?

Werent we all migrants when we came to Australia?

I am still trying to get a definition of 'the Australian Way'?


----------



## pixel (29 December 2010)

Vicki said:


> Its



 You make some very good points too, Vicki;

but your (school's??) motto in your signature needs completing:

"_*omnia autem probate*_ - _quod bonum_ _tenete"

_In the context of this debate, that could support my earlier point that there's a lot more to explore before we can say we've tried everything.


----------



## Vicki (29 December 2010)

Tink said:


> Who do you work for Vicki?
> 
> Werent we all migrants when we came to Australia?
> 
> I am still trying to get a definition of 'the Australian Way'?




Weren't we all imigrants?
Refering to Australia's imigration over some 150+ years..People [of all back-grounds] were attracted or invited to come, & in some cases were given land, in rural areas as long as they worked hard to make something of it [clear land & development etc.]
No power, no water, no noth'n....Support yourself.

Now, in 2010, I'm hearing we have a housing shortage for our current population, I could be wrong, personally I find it hard to believe, in such a big country, but where do we plan on putting a larger  population in the near term?
Is it sustainable in the short-medium term?

Who do I work for?
A great family business, owned & opperated by a good imigrant family, who also haven't forgotten the generosity of other 'imigrants' [4th generation Irish Australians]
who let them use several acres of land in Vic. for noth'n when they first arrived 'pennyless' ..What goes 'round comes 'round I guess?
[Maybe that's the Australian way?]..I dunno.

Vicki


----------



## IFocus (29 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> Did you say the *majority* Mr Focus?  Later on you quote:




I have heard various immigration Ministers etc quoted as saying the majority of Afghans boat people accepted were Hazaras so I was surprised they only made up such a small % of the total. 

Which means the others were I guess migrants yet we are supposed to be over run by boat people.

Boat people I don't think is the problem that's been so well politicized and bought by the electorate's prejudices. 

Remember the Vietnamese boat people coming in with similar who ha I have worked with to many engineers and seen more doctors than I remember from this groups children.

What I do think is an issue or unknown after knowing, speaking with in candid conversations with very moderate follows of Islam is the migration policy including the skilled migration policy of larger numbers of Muslims. 

How they integrate is the question and will there be radicalization of the 2nd and 3rd generations.    

I don't believe this apply's to boat people


----------



## Tink (29 December 2010)

Vicki said:


> Weren't we all imigrants?
> Refering to Australia's imigration over some 150+ years..People [of all back-grounds] were attracted or invited to come, & in some cases were given land, in rural areas as long as they worked hard to make something of it [clear land & development etc.]
> No power, no water, no noth'n....Support yourself.
> 
> ...




Good post Vicki, thanks for the reply : )


----------



## Calliope (29 December 2010)

IFocus said:


> Remember the Vietnamese boat people coming in with similar who ha I have worked with to many engineers and seen more doctors than I remember from this groups children.




The Vietnamese and the Chinese make excellent immigrants, mainly because they have a work ethic...and they aren't Moslems.


----------



## chiasm (29 December 2010)

Calliope said:


> The Vietnamese and the Chinese make excellent immigrants, mainly because they have a work ethic...and they aren't Moslems.




2nd and 3rd generation vietnamese and chinese immigrants are becoming more "Australian" and I tend to believe that the same will happen with the refugees coming to Australia currently. It might just take a bit of patience.


----------



## derty (29 December 2010)

I think this article has some relevance here:



			
				http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/the-makeup-of-the-human-brain-may-reflect-peoples-political-views-according-to-uk-study/story-e6frg8y6-1225977752796 said:
			
		

> *The makeup of the human brain may guide people's political views, according to UK study*
> 
> POLITICAL views may be hard-wired into people, according to a study that suggests *those with right-wing views have a larger area of the brain associated with fear*.
> 
> ...



While it appears the initial motives for the study were frivolous the outcomes are very interesting


----------



## noco (29 December 2010)

chiasm said:


> 2nd and 3rd generation vietnamese and chinese immigrants are becoming more "Australian" and I tend to believe that the same will happen with the refugees coming to Australia currently. It might just take a bit of patience.




chiasm, I agree with your analogy of the Chinese and Vietnamese who work hard and assimilate into our society and are not forced to marry into their own race. The same thing happened after WW11 with the English, German and Italian immigrants. They assimilated in the same way.

I totally disagree with you when it comes to Muslims who do not assimilate and are not allowed to marry outside their religion. However, they may be from a different country but msut still follow the Islamic faith.  The Islamic faith or ideology according to the Koran holds sway over what a Muslim can or cannot do. If they dare break away from the Koran, they will be persecuted. No if's - no but's. A Muslim must marry a Muslim and in most cases it is an arranged marriage by the parents. 

The reason for these strick rules is control and expansion of Islam throughout the World to eventually have a World Islamic state as has happened already in Sweden.


----------



## chiasm (29 December 2010)

noco said:


> chiasm, I agree with your analogy of the Chinese and Vietnamese who work hard and assimilate into our society and are not forced to marry into their own race. The same thing happened after WW11 with the English, German and Italian immigrants. They assimilated in the same way.
> 
> I totally disagree with you when it comes to Muslims who do not assimilate and are not allowed to marry outside their religion. However, they may be from a different country but msut still follow the Islamic faith.  The Islamic faith or ideology according to the Koran holds sway over what a Muslim can or cannot do. If they dare break away from the Koran, they will be persecuted. No if's - no but's. A Muslim must marry a Muslim and in most cases it is an arranged marriage by the parents.
> 
> The reason for these strick rules is control and expansion of Islam throughout the World to eventually have a World Islamic state as has happened already in Sweden.




My opinion is that for gen y religion does influence their decision about who they marry but there are other things such as peer groups, the culture they are immersed in, and what they can access on their iPod. this has been my experience from working with adolescents day in and day out. Certainly going against your parents wishes produces a lot of conflict but the current generation is much more independent and stubborn. I certainly went against my parent wishes and married an Australian girl


----------



## noco (29 December 2010)

chiasm said:


> My opinion is that for gen y religion does influence their decision about who they marry but there are other things such as peer groups, the culture they are immersed in, and what they can access on their iPod. this has been my experience from working with adolescents day in and day out. Certainly going against your parents wishes produces a lot of conflict but the current generation is much more independent and stubborn. I certainly went against my parent wishes and married an Australian girl




Thanks chiasm for your anaolgy of modern day youth.
If is not a rude question, are you a Muslim and did your wife convert to Islam?
Don't answer if you don't want to. I won't be offended. Just curious.


----------



## chiasm (29 December 2010)

noco said:


> Thanks chiasm for your anaolgy of modern day youth.
> If is not a rude question, are you a Muslim and did your wife convert to Islam?
> Don't answer if you don't want to. I won't be offended. Just curious.




Its not rude and I don't mind. I think the best description for me would be atheist. My wife is Presbyterian. The issue was more of a cultural one with my family. My brother is engaged to a 2nd generation Australian from Brazil and that certainly wasn't my parents first choice either. The last two adolescents who were muslim I dealt with were dating boys who were Roman Catholic and Greek orthodox. I guess my point is these days religion is less of an issue


----------



## noco (29 December 2010)

chiasm said:


> Its not rude and I don't mind. I think the best description for me would be atheist. My wife is Presbyterian. The issue was more of a cultural one with my family. My brother is engaged to a 2nd generation Australian from Brazil and that certainly wasn't my parents first choice either. The last two adolescents who were muslim I dealt with were dating boys who were Roman Catholic and Greek orthodox. I guess my point is these days religion is less of an issue




Thanks chiasm for your honesty. Do you believe the two adolescent Muslim girls would be allowed to marry a Roman Chathlic or a Greek? If their parents were to approve, would they be regarded as true Muslims and what do you think would be the consequence for them in a Muslim society?


----------



## chiasm (30 December 2010)

noco said:


> Thanks chiasm for your honesty. Do you believe the two adolescent Muslim girls would be allowed to marry a Roman Chathlic or a Greek? If their parents were to approve, would they be regarded as true Muslims and what do you think would be the consequence for them in a Muslim society?




You might be surprised by the number of Muslim girls who don't wear burkas, often born in Australia from immigrant parents. I like the quote from the girl I was talking to yesterday "you wouldn't know I was Muslim unless I told you", and she was right. As I said, their parents aren't usually happy but they aren't shunned by their communities in general...but that is from my experience only. As always there are exceptions though!


----------



## Calliope (30 December 2010)

derty said:


> I think this article has some relevance here:
> 
> 
> While it appears the initial motives for the study were frivolous the outcomes are very interesting



Indeed it is relevant


> “The anterior cingulate is a part of the brain that is on the middle surface of the brain at the front and we found that the thickness of the grey matter, where the nerve cells of neurons are, was thicker the more people described themselves as liberal or left wing and thinner the more they described themselves as conservative or right wing,” he told the BBC program.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ding-to-uk-study/story-e6frg8y6-1225977752796

I'm not surprised that leftists have a thick brain. I always known they were thickheaded.


----------



## Boggo (30 December 2010)

Julia GILLARD has announced she intends to make it more difficult to claim welfare benefits.

From next July all the Centrelink forms will be printed in English only.


----------



## sails (30 December 2010)

derty said:


> I think this article has some relevance here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know that article is intended to make those with right-wing views look like scaredy cats, but the reality is that some fear is also necessary as a protective emotion.

Take a toddler who has no fear.  Parents have to be extremely vigilent until said toddler has had a few minor tumbles to develop enough fear of pain to protect him/herself.

*So, on that basis, are left-winged brains no better than toddlers?*...

Sadly, we then have to wait until the left-wingers feel enough pain that they learn better.  But how much damage is to be inflicted on this country until the currently fearless left-wingers realise their mistakes?


----------



## IFocus (31 December 2010)

Excellent now that we have established the lefties have more gray matter and the right thicker skulls the bad news is that the dam pesky  Muslims are taking over our cricket team.



> THE first Muslim to wear the baggy green will represent his culture proudly.




Whats really annoying is hes a good bloke................. cracks me up



> Katich says that the young batsman, who is the leading run-scorer in Shield cricket this year, is a delight to have around the team. "He is probably the most popular bloke in our (NSW) squad and I am pretty sure a lot of the young blokes will back me up on that," he said. "He doesn't drink but the boys don't hold that against him. He will still go out with the boys, socialise, and then he drives them home - he's their taxi. He has a great sense of humour, too."


----------



## Vicki (31 December 2010)

IFocus said:


> Excellent now that we have established the lefties have more gray matter and the right thicker skulls the bad news is that the dam pesky  Muslims are taking over our cricket team.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats really annoying is hes a good bloke................. cracks me up




Looks like  Cricket is the one religion we all have in common?lol.....Thanks Britain.

Vicki


----------



## noco (31 December 2010)

chiasm said:


> You might be surprised by the number of Muslim girls who don't wear burkas, often born in Australia from immigrant parents. I like the quote from the girl I was talking to yesterday "you wouldn't know I was Muslim unless I told you", and she was right. As I said, their parents aren't usually happy but they aren't shunned by their communities in general...but that is from my experience only. As always there are exceptions though!




Thanks for that chiasm. I was aware that not all Muslim woman wear the burkas, some wear a head scarf and some, as you say, wear neither which is fine by me. But it dose not  detract from the fact that they are still Muslims.

The question I don't have an answer to is, would those same girls be allowed to marry a Roman Catholic or a Greek without being persecuted?


----------



## noco (6 January 2011)

And still they come in boatloads without any deterrent  by this incompetent Labor Government. Oh yes, we get plenty of lip service and no action!!!!

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...riermail/comments/here_we_go_again_boat_no_1/


----------



## sails (6 January 2011)

noco said:


> And still they come in boatloads without any deterrent  by this incompetent Labor Government. Oh yes, we get plenty of lip service and no action!!!!
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...riermail/comments/here_we_go_again_boat_no_1/




From that article, Noco:



> The arrival last night of a boat carrying 92 passengers brings *the total number of arrivals under Labor to 10,016* and 3,464 since Prime Minister Gillard took office...




Christmas Island must be bursting at the seams. This government seems incapable of dealing with border policy.  Where is the GG - inlaws aside, isn't it her job to call for some accountancy in this obvious incompentency?


----------



## Knobby22 (6 January 2011)

It is only a tiny fraction of the allowed immigration intake to which Labor and Liberal agree to and are complicit, to the negative of the average Joe like me.


----------



## noco (6 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> It is only a tiny fraction of the allowed immigration intake to which Labor and Liberal agree to and are complicit, to the negative of the average Joe like me.




Knobby, obviously nobody has explained to you the difference between a legal immigrant and an illegal immigrant.

The legal immigrants are approved before they leave their own country and arrive with all their documents and ID's. They are normally skilled or professional people of good standing and in many cases are sponsered by relatives. They are not a burden on the taxpayer to the point of what it costs to maintain illegals.

The illegal immigrants arrive at Christmas Island or Ashmore reef in leaky unseaworthy boats. These people have flown to Indonesia from their country of origin with thier ID's in tact. They then pay paople smugglers some $10,000 per head and destroy their ID's on arrival in Australian waters. Why?  The Indonesian Government turns a blind eye to the smugglers and in fact are pleased to fob them off to Australia. So much for the Rudd/Gillard's dialogue with Indonesia to stop the people smugglers. 

As posted on previous occassions, these queue jumpers cost the tax payer of Australia $80,000 per annum for every man, woman and child. Multiply that by 10,000 plus and you have the amount it is costing us taxpayers. 

Knobby, I do hope this has helped you to understand what you say is only a tiny fraction of allowed immigrants. A little education can go a long way to understanding.


----------



## sails (7 January 2011)

Knobby22 said:


> It is only a tiny fraction of the allowed immigration intake to which Labor and Liberal agree to and are complicit, to the negative of the average Joe like me.




Knobby, I am not against a controlled migrant scheme where applications are properly processed and I am not against *genuine* refugees.

But how do we know if boat people are genuine refugees if they are arriving without documentation?  An article posted earlier in this thread indicated that the UN believed that most were not refugees and should be sent home. 

A controlled migrant scheme usually allows people to come here who have the skills to support themselves and have had suitable background checks.  

It would be interesting to know some stats on how many boat arrivals remain a drain on Aussie tax payers through continual welfare payments for many years (incl. baby bonuses, etc).

But, being a labor supporter, it is quite possible you may not want to know.  Probably easier to keep the head in the sand...


----------



## Mofra (7 January 2011)

noco said:


> As posted on previous occassions, these queue jumpers cost the tax payer of Australia $80,000 per annum for every man, woman and child. Multiply that by 10,000 plus and you have the amount it is costing us taxpayers.



There are much cheaper ways to process these people, but it would be politically unpalatable.

Strange that those that tend to rail about costs favour the most expensive option.



sails said:


> But, being a labor supporter, it is quite possible you may not want to know.  Probably easier to keep the head in the sand...



Well, it worked for the Libs too


----------



## sails (7 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> ...Well, it worked for the Libs too




The Libs reduced the boat arrivals to almost nothing - not sure what you mean... 

With the UN stating that most are *not* refugees, it seems unbelievable that the current labor government continues to keep the welcome mat out and absolutely anyone from another country (refugee or not) can front up in a leaky boat and be potentially supported for life in Australia without necessarily contributing a thing in return.  

Sounds like a rather expensive option, IMO.


----------



## sails (7 January 2011)

This sort of news only confirms deepens the concerns already mentioned:

Asylum seekers 'lie about age'



> Almost half the boat people who claim to be minors may be lying about their age to gain favourable treatment while in detention on Christmas Island, immigration officials fear, prompting tougher checks of birth dates.


----------



## Mofra (7 January 2011)

sails said:


> The Libs reduced the boat arrivals to almost nothing - not sure what you mean...



The boat arrivals dropped at the same time as the Tamils signed a ceasefire with the Sri Lankan government. Does anyone honestly think domestic policies are the only factor in boat arrivals?

It didn't reduce the cost of housing those alrady here in Nauru where the costs are substantially higher than housing people in Australian territory - and the fact the government is now forced to pick up the tab for the ongoing medical care for people deliberately traumatised by the former government due to political expedeincy is also adding to the costs.

Unfortunately, the current government is also adopting high-cost measures to detain asylum seekers, although I believe the Timor solution (which Abott opposes) would be a cheaper option than the Pacific solution.

I would be interested in the UN figures you have - the UNHCR figures I could dig up are 77% acceptance of Iraqi seekers, and over the last decade the % of asylum seekers who have been granted asylum in Australia has ranged from 70% to 97%.


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## sails (7 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> The boat arrivals dropped at the same time as the Tamils signed a ceasefire with the Sri Lankan government. Does anyone honestly think domestic policies are the only factor in boat arrivals?




The offshore processing at the time did slow down the boat arrivals and I don't think it's only Tamils arriving.  Just look at the first post in this thread on - almost prophetic.



Bobby said:


> Off shore -now not on .
> 
> Get ready for the next invasion of  economic refuges.
> The cost will be immense both monetary & socially.
> ...






Mofra said:


> It didn't reduce the cost of housing those alrady here in Nauru where the costs are substantially higher than housing people in Australian territory - and the fact the government is now forced to pick up the tab for the ongoing medical care for people deliberately traumatised by the former government due to political expedeincy is also adding to the costs.




Housing may be cheaper but it seems that once boat arrivals can get into Australia, then they have access to much more than just housing.  What about the cost of legal services they get for free?  Compensation, Baby bonus, etc?

Do you have any supportive documentation that the government is paying out heavily for trauma cases?  This sounds like it's another loophole to rob Australian tax payers.  If these people are genuinely the refugees they claim to be, they would have been traumatised before they got on the first boat.  



Mofra said:


> Unfortunately, the current government is also adopting high-cost measures to detain asylum seekers, although I believe the Timor solution (which Abott opposes) would be a cheaper option than the Pacific solution.




How can it be a solution when it appears that Timor aren't interested?  And wouldn't the cost of building a whole new detention centre in Timor is going to cost more than the facility already in Nauru?




Mofra said:


> I would be interested in the UN figures you have - the UNHCR figures I could dig up are 77% acceptance of Iraqi seekers, and over the last decade the % of asylum seekers who have been granted asylum in Australia has ranged from 70% to 97%.




I don't have exact figures, however, below is the article posted a few weeks ago:

*Send detainees home, says UN*


> UNHCR regional representative Richard Towle said large numbers of people now coming through the asylum system in Australia were not refugees and ''the challenge is how to find fair and humane and effective ways of allowing them to leave this country to go home''.


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## sails (24 January 2011)

sails said:


> ...Housing may be cheaper but it seems that once boat arrivals can get into Australia, then they have access to much more than just housing.  What about the cost of legal services they get for free?  Compensation, Baby bonus, etc?




The article below was one of the concerns listed above.  Once they put their foot on these shores, they are not only fed, housed, clothed and paid to have babies, they also have access for legal aid (at our expense) to fight any decision to return them to their own homeland.  All courtesy of the Aussie taxpyer.  In the link I provided in the last post, the UN believe most are NOT genuine refugees.

*Refugees win access to courts*



> Responding for the first time to the High Court's ruling on the rights of asylum-seekers to challenge procedural aspects of their cases in the courts, Immigration Minister Chris Bowen yesterday announced the government would appoint two new federal magistrates specifically *to deal with the expected deluge in new cases*.


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## Mofra (24 January 2011)

sails said:


> The article below was one of the concerns listed above.  Once they put their foot on these shores, they are not only fed, housed, clothed and paid to have babies, they also have access for legal aid (at our expense) to fight any decision to return them to their own homeland.  All courtesy of the Aussie taxpyer.  In the link I provided in the last post, the UN believe most are NOT genuine refugees.
> 
> *Refugees win access to courts*



So you are arguing that we should abandon people in the desert with no food/shelter/protection?


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## Calliope (24 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> So you are arguing that we should abandon people in the desert with no food/shelter/protection?




This is a trick of yours;



> *put words in (to) someone's mouth*
> Fig. to interpret what someone said so that the words mean what you want and not what the speaker wanted


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## sails (24 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> So you are arguing that we should abandon people in the desert with no food/shelter/protection?




lol - you've got to be joking...  This thread has explained the concerns many of us have at the ease anybody can front up in a rickety boat - and they are turning up in droves.  That wouldn't even be tolerated in most countries.  They would be turned back.  Word would get around quickly that there is no point going to that country anymore.

OK, I've answered your question, so here's one for you. 

*Are you arguing that we should continue to have the welcome mat out for all and sundry with no ID who would like to have a lifetime support of money, housing, medical treatment, free legal aid and get paid for having babies - all paid for by the Aussie taxpayer?  *

In all reality, IF this is their main reason for coming, I doubt they will be interested in working and contributing to the Aussie economy.  Genuine refugees tend to be keen to make a new start in this country and usually try to assimilate, but not so sure about freeloaders jumping the queue and coming in the back door.  

Oh, and how about our own homeless - probably a whole lot more now due to the floods?  Perhaps they should jump on a tinnie and front up at Christmas Island.  Throw out the ID so no one knows who they are, how much money they have, how much they might have earned, etc..


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## Mofra (24 January 2011)

sails said:


> lol - you've got to be joking...



Tongue partly in cheek of course sails 



sails said:


> This thread has explained the concerns many of us have at the ease anybody can front up in a rickety boat - and they are turning up in droves.  That wouldn't even be tolerated in most countries.  They would be turned back.  Word would get around quickly that there is no point going to that country anymore.



"Droves" is a contentious issue and one I disagree with - most of our regional neighbours (countries with a much lower per capita GDP I might add) have tens of thousands of asylum seekers on their shores. 
In their cases I would use the word "droves". A few thousand arriving at one of the richest countries in the world, I would have to respectully disagree with you.

I note that past figures show that between 70% & 97% in any given year of boat arrivals are found to be genuine refugees - the figure for arrivals by air is usually sustantially less.



sails said:


> OK, I've answered your question, so here's one for you.
> 
> *Are you arguing that we should continue to have the welcome mat out for all and sundry with no ID who would like to have a lifetime support of money, housing, medical treatment, free legal aid and get paid for having babies - all paid for by the Aussie taxpayer?  *



I'm arguing that:

a. We have to meet our obligations under the UNHCR, as every country should. I do *not* believe that Australia should be exempt from International Law, nor has anyone thus far put forward any reason why we should be. 
Legitimate refugees should be allowed to stay as per intenational law, and those not found to be genuine refugees should be sent back to their country of origin.

b.  I will repeat the economic question that everyone has avoided thus far on this thread - if it is purely a question of economics, why are people so gung-ho on the most expensive solutions (off-shore and island processing)?

c. It is interesting that the assumption is that refugees will all be a drain on the Australian taxpayer for their lifetime - any evidence to support this? 
If people want to use individual examples, I will reply with the experience of Frank Lowy, a Check refugee.



sails said:


> In all reality, IF this is their main reason for coming, I doubt they will be interested in working and contributing to the Aussie economy.  Genuine refugees tend to be keen to make a new start in this country and usually try to assimilate, but not so sure about freeloaders jumping the queue and coming in the back door.



Generalisations cannot be refuted or confirmed - they are just opinions (the figures suggest that boat arrivals are far more likely to be refugees than air arrivals).

I can make generalisations as well, however my experience will be different as I grew up in an area with a high number of migrants & refugees and guess what - people just ain't that different, regardless of where they're from 



sails said:


> Oh, and how about our own homeless - probably a whole lot more now due to the floods?  Perhaps they should jump on a tinnie and front up at Christmas Island.  Throw out the ID so no one knows who they are, how much money they have, how much they might have earned, etc..



So why are you arguing in favour of the most expensive solution, or taking aim at far greater aspects of government spending/waste? The Defence Dept alone waste billiosn every single year, and many of the programs (ie Seasprite) are known dogs by all involved before they even start.


----------



## Julia (24 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> or taking aim at far greater aspects of government spending/waste? The Defence Dept alone waste billiosn every single year, and many of the programs (ie Seasprite) are known dogs by all involved before they even start.



Undoubtedly true.  And certainly this government has provided an extraordinary list of projects which have horribly wasted taxpayer funds.  But that doesn't seem to me to be directly relevant as a counter to what Sails is arguing.


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## noco (30 January 2011)

Well, the floods disaster has been a happy relief for Joolya and a distraction from other pressing matters, except of course the flood levy proposal which ain't going down too well.
In the meantime she has forgotten about the 1000 + children being held in detention. A statement she made criticising the Howard Government when in opposition. What a hypocrite.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...than-john-howard/story-e6freooo-1225996704418


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## sails (30 January 2011)

And it's not only the record number of children in detention that's in the news.  The article from the Herald Sun below explains that some of the people smuggling is Australian based and yet nothing is done to stop it? They apparently charge over $12,000 per trip so these arrivals are obviously not as destitute as they make out on arrival: 

Full article: People-smugglers target Australian Hazaras in Melbourne, Sydney and Adelaide



> The top smugglers have Australian citizenship and travel unimpeded between Australia and Afghanistan, it is claimed.
> 
> The smugglers boast they can reunite family and friends with relatives living in Australia within months, if not weeks.




Why is nothing done about this?  Surely tightening up on clear unauthorised entry to our borders would surely save more than the amount of funds required to repair flood damage in all affected states.


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## Happy (31 January 2011)

Mofra said:


> So you are arguing that we should abandon people in the desert with no food/shelter/protection?




They paid quite a lot of money to get away from your DESERT.

They could spend that money on food, water and A/C to be more comfy!


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## Happy (31 January 2011)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/31/3125415.htm?section=justin
TITLE:


> ASYLUM SEEKER SETS HIMSELF ON FIRE




Last paragraph:


> ….Police say the man was taken to Royal Darwin Hospital to be treated for *smoke inhalation*.




I just get asylum fatigue reading this type of blatant emotional extortion attempts.


----------



## noco (7 February 2011)

Even Kevin Rudd is now admitting there could be Islamic terrorsts entering Australia with illegal asylum seekers. Rudd  condemned Wilson Tuckey for suggesting it last year.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ouriermail/comments/just_as_tuckey_predicted/


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## Mofra (8 February 2011)

noco said:


> Even Kevin Rudd is now admitting there could be Islamic terrorsts entering Australia with illegal asylum seekers. Rudd  condemned Wilson Tuckey for suggesting it last year.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ouriermail/comments/just_as_tuckey_predicted/



Noco I know you are trying to get some from of modern day McCarthyism off the ground with a witch hunt on all things Islamic in another thread, but you do realise that Tamils are overwhelmingly Hindu right? A person of interest is not automatically a terrorist?

I'd take anything Andrew "Abbott is too left wing" Bolt with a grain of salt as well


----------



## Calliope (8 February 2011)

Mofra said:


> Noco I know you are trying to get some from of modern day McCarthyism off the ground with a witch hunt on all things Islamic in another thread, but you do realise that Tamils are overwhelmingly Hindu right? A person of interest is not automatically a terrorist?




The Tamil Tigers are a non-secular movement.  They were actually the world leaders in suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2003, carrying out more suicide attacks than Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104391493


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## noco (8 February 2011)

Mofra said:


> Noco I know you are trying to get some from of modern day McCarthyism off the ground with a witch hunt on all things Islamic in another thread, but you do realise that Tamils are overwhelmingly Hindu right? A person of interest is not automatically a terrorist?
> 
> I'd take anything Andrew "Abbott is too left wing" Bolt with a grain of salt as well




The information I post on ASF is always factual whether it is from Andrew Bolt or other sources. No SPIN...NO RHETORIC like you and the socialist left  portray whenever in a tight corner.


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## IFocus (8 February 2011)

Calliope said:


> The Tamil Tigers are a non-secular movement.  They were actually the world leaders in suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2003, carrying out more suicide attacks than Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
> 
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104391493




Really good article


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## Mofra (9 February 2011)

noco said:


> *The information I post on ASF is always factual whether it is from Andrew Bolt or other sources*.



Bwahahahaha, oh dear, that's funny 



noco said:


> *No SPIN...NO RHETORIC like you and the socialist left  portray whenever in a tight corner.*



*
LDP are socialist left? Better tell WayneL he's a socialist now, I'm pretty sure he voted for them too 

I note nobody bothered to respond to my post of 24 Jan - a concession of defeat by the right?*


----------



## noco (9 February 2011)

Mofra said:


> Bwahahahaha, oh dear, that's funny
> 
> 
> LDP are socialist left? Better tell WayneL he's a socialist now, I'm pretty sure he voted for them too
> ...




It does not take much to amuse small minds.


----------



## Mofra (9 February 2011)

noco said:


> It does not take much to amuse small minds.



Apparently not - just a few paranoid Islamic conspiracy theories


----------



## Happy (9 February 2011)

Mofra said:


> Apparently not - just a few paranoid Islamic conspiracy theories




Going through 1930 through to 1945 Victory over not average room painter Adolf, quite a few Leaders decided to ignore his raise in hope it will go away.

Considerable effort was needed to make it go away few years later, didn't it?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (9 February 2011)

Beware the title of "other" to those less fortunate than we.

Shakespeare:



> Portia:
> The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
> It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
> Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
> It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.




gg


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## trainspotter (10 February 2011)

Makes a lot of sense really ........


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## sails (26 February 2011)

While the fury over Gillard's lie and carbon tax lie boils on, another boat quietly slips into Australian waters.  Obviously nothing has been learned from the last disaster including a little boy left orphaned.  Smugglers and their high paying passengers seem to think it is all worth the risk.  Word must be getting around that Aussie taxpayers foot the bill for everything if you can get there in one piece.  Never need to worry about money again...:

From Perth Now:
Boat with more than 100 people intercepted north of Ashmore Islands


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## noco (26 February 2011)

sails said:


> While the fury over Gillard's lie and carbon tax lie boils on, another boat quietly slips into Australian waters.  Obviously nothing has been learned from the last disaster including a little boy left orphaned.  Smugglers and their high paying passengers seem to think it is all worth the risk.  Word must be getting around that Aussie taxpayers foot the bill for everything if you can get there in one piece.  Never need to worry about money again...:
> 
> From Perth Now:
> Boat with more than 100 people intercepted north of Ashmore Islands




Maybe that's JULIAR'S ploy, talk about the carbon tax and take peoples minds away from the asylum seekers and all the other disastrous mess of PINK BATS, BER ETC.ETC. You know the thingies that have COSTAPLENTY.


----------



## DB008 (27 February 2011)

If Australia took the Israel approach, we would be labeled Racist, Bigoted and part of the KKK. The mind boggles.....

*
1,200 Israeli-born children have been told they’re not welcome in Israel, because they're not Jewish.*


http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/600957/n/Identity-Crisis

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/600957/n/Identity-Crisis


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## sails (23 March 2011)

The violence has apparently been rewarded and seems now asylum-seekers are coming straight to the mainland.  What will be destroyed next?

From the Australian: Christmas Island shuts up shop to new asylum-seekers



> THE Christmas Island detention centre will soon be closed to new arrivals as the Immigration Department continues to ship asylum-seekers to already overflowing mainland centres.


----------



## Julia (23 March 2011)

Sails, I've been listening to these ongoing developments every day for a while now and just feel a sense of despair.

So asylum seekers need no longer worry about being assessed on Christmas Island, but instead have instant access to the mainland with all the legal implications of that access.

It seems the government has no interest in reducing, let alone stopping, this flow of people, the admission of whom puts further and further back in the queue those genuine refugees who have been waiting often years in UNHCR camps.  How must they feel?

The government seems perfectly happy to just use more and more of our taxpayer dollars to build more immigration detention centres on the mainland, having succumbed to the blackmail of those who set fire to much of the centre on Christmas Island.  Or perhaps these centres will never be built and instead they will happily fund private community accommodation, all expenses paid, for these people, whilst many of our own remain homeless and in need of psychiatric care, even if they have paid into the tax system for much of their lives.

Meanwhile each of the asylum seekers will have a case manager to look after their specific needs and assure that they have good medical, dental and psychological care.

Whacko, what a fine society we have.


----------



## IFocus (2 April 2011)

Greg Sheridan in today's Australian reports on the unfortunate reality of Muslim immigration worth a read.

This is not a sign that I agree in anyway with most of the views expressed in this thread.



> How I lost faith in multiculturalism







> But in the nearly 15 years we lived there the suburb changed, and much for the worse.
> 
> Three dynamics interacted in a noxious fashion: the growth of a macho, misogynist culture among young men that often found expression in extremely violent crime; a pervasive atmosphere of anti-social behaviour in the streets; and the simultaneous growth of Islamist extremism and jihadi culture.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...multiculturalism/story-fn59niix-1226031793805


----------



## sails (2 April 2011)

IFocus said:


> Greg Sheridan in today's Australian reports on the unfortunate reality of Muslim immigration worth a read.
> 
> This is not a sign that I agree in anyway with most of the views expressed in this thread.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...multiculturalism/story-fn59niix-1226031793805




Thanks for posting, IFocus.  It is an interesting read and it probably does reflect the underlying concerns in this thread.   Understand you have different views...

Perhaps some of us appear harsh in our concerns with the continual arrival of boat people, however, the more we read of what extremist migrants can do to a country, it brings with it a fear of whom these boats are carrying and what designs do they have on our country.  Arriving without ID makes it very difficult to know exactly who these people are; if they are actually genuine refugees or if they have other motives.  It seems a pretty risky gamble.

It is due to this concern that many of us are calling for the boats to be stopped and allow controlled immigration through legal means.  If we don't, we may find that our culture is changing against our wishes and we are helpless to do anything about it.


----------



## pixel (2 April 2011)

An email is making the rounds. Interesting analogy:


> Haven't heard it put this way before, but it's a great analogy.
> 
> I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back patio and filled it with seed. What a beauty of a bird feeder it is as I filled it lovingly with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.
> 
> ...


----------



## sails (2 April 2011)

Does anyone know if this means a change of policy - has labor seen the light?  Is Indonesia now stopping the boats as Mofra has been suggesting?  

Full article from SMH: Indonesia detains Aust-bound boatpeople



> The group had flown from Afghanistan to Jakarta, travelled by bus to Madura island to "take a big boat to Australia", Hidayat said




As usual they had no ID so it raises the question how they found the money to get to Indonesia and, more interestingly, how did they fly from Afghanistan to Jakarta without passports or any sort of ID?


----------



## Calliope (2 April 2011)

sails said:


> As usual they had no ID so it raises the question how they found the money to get to Indonesia and, more interestingly, how did they fly from Afghanistan to Jakarta without passports or any sort of ID?




That's an easy one. They destroyed their passports *after* they got to Jakarta.


----------



## sails (2 April 2011)

Calliope said:


> That's an easy one. They destroyed their passports *after* they got to Jakarta.




lol Calliope, I knew that  -but was wondering if any of our labor faithful who so valiantly stand up for anyone (refugee or not) who decides to come here by the back door in a boat could work it out...

More to the point, it highlights the fact that these people had passports and clearly willingly destroyed their own ID for the sole purpose of obtaining refugee status here.  That doesn't sound like genuine refugees status, IMO.  Not when they flew from Afghanistan to Jakarta...

So, I don't know what Indonesia now does with the boatload they intercepted.  Do they still hand them over to Australia or do they get sent home.  Does anyone know?


----------



## noco (7 April 2011)

When does not Gillard, Rudd and Bowen understand "NO" means "NO". As any sane person would read comments coming out of East Timor, they would well and truly understand East Timor's parliament do not want a bar of any Australian off shore detention centre. East Timor should send an open letter to all major Australian newspapers spelling out to the Australian people their rejection of Gillard's insistance. 
However, whilst East Timor has rejected Australia's proposal, we now have a new island for off shore asylum processing. WHERE? A PLACE CALLED "TAZMAINYA". Well done Juliar.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ernment_tells_east_timorb_its_no_means_maybe/


----------



## sails (8 April 2011)

Here we go again.  Border policy...what border policy?  

And yet Ms Gillard is prepared to stop dental programs for our own underpriveledged while forking out millions to take in those who may not even be genuine refugees.  People who will use our legal system at our expense to ensure they don't get sent back even if they are not legitimate refugees.  And then torch our facilities if they don't have things done their way...


More here from News.com: *Christmas Island again at bursting point*



> THE first group of asylum-seekers taken directly to Christmas Island since last month's riots has again pushed the number of detainees on the remote territory past 1800.


----------



## Julia (8 April 2011)

Yep, I was thinking about this today when listening to a radio report about the large numbers of flood and cyclone victims who are still unable to get back into their homes, many of them having been rejected for insurance payouts.

They are staying with friends, relatives which must be stressful all round, or even living in tents.

No offer of the government paying for motel accommodation for them.  Just sickening.


----------



## startrader (19 April 2011)

In today's Australian:

"*Legal aid for crews tops $4m*

MORE than $4 million in taxpayer-funded legal aid will be provided to the crew members of asylum-seeker boats who are on trial in Australia this year on people-smuggling charges."

When is this madness going to end??????


----------



## sails (19 April 2011)

startrader said:


> In today's Australian:
> 
> "*Legal aid for crews tops $4m*
> 
> ...




How does that work?  I thought there was big money in people smuggling - how do they qualify for legal aid...


----------



## sails (19 April 2011)

OK - this article explains more about the poor fishermen that get caught up in people smuggling - seems often unknowingly.  It also explains more about the entire process;

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/caught-in-the-net/story-e6frg8h6-1226037762767

It seems that those with plenty of money are the ones being welcomed, housed, fed, medically treated and free legal aid to boot. 

 Just because they hide their papers from Australian authorities doesn't mean they no longer have funds and neither does it mean they are legitimate refugees when they pass through so many other countries of similar culture as their own to get here.  It does seem that this is indeed the land of milk and honey dished out freely by a government who seems powerless to stop it and too proud to use the established facilities at Nauru if the boats can't be stopped in Indonesia.

Surely this $4m should be recouped from someone higher up in the people smuggling chain?

And pretty sad when our own natural disaster victims seem to be left out in the cold because there isn't enough left to help them.


----------



## noco (19 April 2011)

A Vietnma Veteran has his say. HE IS WAITING FOR Juliar Gillard's reply.


----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 3:19 PM
Subject: Fw: A Vietnam Veteran


Subject: A Vietnam Veteran

Subject: GILLARD EMAIL
A Vietnam Veteran (A Company 7RAR  Vietnam) Dave Harrison sent this letter to PM....Send it on at will....TO ALL 
EMAIL SENT TO PRIME MINISTER GILLARD 16 March 2011
David Harrison
Address taken out.
Dear Prime Minister Gillard,
I would like to express my concerns about the current situation with muslim Asylum Seekers/ Refugees/ illegal immigrants.
I am a Vietnam veteran and fought for Australia. I went to war when my country asked me without question and I am proud to say I am Australian who loves my country. I am a member of the Frankston RSL club with the largest membership in Victoria and visit on a regular occasion to talk to my friends. All the people I talk to have the same view as I do on the muslim people coming into our country.
This email will be put on the notice board and everyone's attention will be brought to it as they enter the RSL. Your response will also be put on the notice board. The RSL has over 3,000 members.
I will also sent this to everyone that I have their email address and ask them to pass it on to all the other people they know. I guess this will get to approx 7 to 8,000 people. Maybe more.
Therefore I ask for real answers to my questions.
I have lived in the Philippines and Thailand and understand what the muslims are trying to do in the southern parts of those countries.
They are trying to get their own Islamic states and want to live under their own laws and rules. They are killing everyone that stands in their way. Men, women and children and even babies.
In Thailand they are killing all the teachers and burning down the schools to force the kids to attend Islamic schools so they can covert them to Islamic/muslim. 
This is already happening in Australia where the Government and other authorities are changing the rules to suit the muslims.
Take Dandenong area for example, the kindergartens and pre schools now do not celebrate Christmas, Easter and other world Christian events because all muslims there would be offended. Therefore the Australian kids are being decimated against in there own country. THIS IS AUSTRALIA not some other muslim country.
Another example is a school in Coburg were having a school BBQ and the few muslim women on the committee ordered only halal meat. Therefore the Australian kid had to miss out on the BBQ or eat muslim meat. Your Centre Link and other government departments are banning Christmas decorations and the worst disgrace is that these Government Departments are stoping their staff observing the minute silence on the 11 of November. How dare your department’s heads instruct their staff in this way. These are all to suit the muslims that hate our country and our way of life here.
This is decimation against Australians and kids, which is a real disgrace.
Another stupid thing your Government has done is bringing the Sudanese to Australia. This is a Christian country however your Government has accepted the refugees from the northern  Sudan, which are muslim, and not from the south which are Christian. How stupid. Now every Sudanese woman I see is pregnant to get the baby bonus. Again our taxes at work !!!!!!.
You and Kevin Rudd allow and welcome the Muslim boat people and allow them privileges the Australian people don't get. Boats are coming every day and there are another 10 to 15,000 muslim people waiting in Indonesia and 10,000 in Malaysia that will be coming here. The Sri Lanken muslims are on boats now as we speak coming direct here.
How many do we have to take before they start bombing my children and friends. You know and I know it won't be long before we get the same problems and bombings as other countries.
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE THEN !!!!!!!!!!
 People smuggling around the world is a very serious offence, however your Government welcomes it.
 My suggestion,
When the boats come here, have the captain and crew charged and jailed for people smuggling. A long jail sentence of 7 to 10 years as this will be a deterrent to other people smugglers.
Then fly the boat people back to their own country. We spend over $400 million to build the detention centre on Christmas Island and many millions in keeping them and giving them things that many Australian can only dream about. The muslims destroy the centre on a regular basis, which costs us taxpayers many millions of dollars to repair it. Then we repair it again and again.
Now your government is going to build another near Darwin at cost of over 90 million and 70 million to run it per year. Is this a joke on us taxpayers?
Or is this your Government just saying welcome to all muslims.
What added value are muslims to Australia.
They don't work just take our taxpayer dollars.
Don't want to call Australia home.
Don't accept our Christian culture.
Don't want to speak English.
Don't want to abide by our laws.
Don't want to integrate.
Don't want to go to our schools.
Don't want to play sport.
And many other don’ts.
I recently went on the Clean up Australia campaign in 2 locations with hundreds of other people attending. Guess what!!!! NOT ONE MUSLIM OR SUDANESE THERE TO HELP. All were in their public houses relaxing and watching TV at what they think are stupid Australians working.
All the TV footage on the shocking Queensland floods with all the people helping to trying to clean up. I did not see one muslim or Sudanese helping. NO
WHY, they only care about how much money and benefits they can get out of Australia.
Do you ever see muslims or Sudanese living in cardboard boxes or cars with their children? NO, they are all living in our public housing FREE but Australians if they can get one have to pay.
MY QUESTIONS TO YOU AND YOUR GOVERNMENT.
* How many muslims and Sudanese refugees live in Australia now?
* What percentage of the Australian population are each group now?
* How much of total taxpayers money spent on them for the 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and       2010 years? The total amounts.
* How much to you believe will be spent this year 2011 on refugees?
* How much tax payers money is in the current budget to support these people? 
* If you need extra money for all the muslims boats coming, can you tell me which budgeted  area the money will come from? Is it Hospitals, Education or reduction of Australians old age pension?
* What percentage of Australian welfare payment do these refugees represent of the welfare budget?
* Are you going to deport the muslim trouble makers and leaders at Christmas Island currently destroying public property?
* Why don't you allow all the Queensland and Victorian flood victims living in tents and other shared accommodation to live in motels like the muslims at the taxpayer’s expense?
* Why didn't you pay for the families to attend the funeral of Sapper Jamie Larcombe who was killed recently like you did for the muslim boat people and pay for the funeral as well?
 * Is it true that these refugees get the following payments?
      * Why do these muslim get a hardship allowance?
BENEFIT	AUSTRALIAN AGED PENSIONER	ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN AUSTRALIA
Weekly allowance	$253.00	$472.50
Weekly Spouse allowance	$56.00	$472.50
Additional weekly hardship allowance	$0.00	$145.00

TOTAL YEARLY BENEFIT	$16,068.00	$56,680.00

Some interesting Facts....


By the way the boat people are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS not asylum seekers or refugees.
Myself and most people at the RSL (WHO ALL VOTE) would like your response to the questions and what action you are taking to stop the muslim boat people coming here.
Regards,
David  Harrison. (Butch Harrison)


----------



## Julia (19 April 2011)

Noco, after the number of times that silly assertion that asylum seekers are receiving about double the weekly payments Australian pensioners receive has been totally rejected and disproved, I'm surprised you would again perpetuate this myth via the above quoted email.

I doubt the Prime Minister will ever see that email.  Her staff would discredit it as being of no value when it makes an assertion that is so obviously incorrect.

There are some valid points in the message, but if one vital point is totally wrong, then the whole message loses validity.


----------



## noco (22 April 2011)

Why do asylum seekers receive free dental care and free travel on trains and buses, when struggling pensioners have to pay. What's next? Free grog!!!!!!!!!!!!  How about a fair go for all Australians. 

This makes me puk.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...only_aborigines_and_boat_people_treated_free/


----------



## sails (22 April 2011)

Here's an interesting graph from the Herald Sun - it doesn't appear to include arrivals so far this year in 2011.  Note the dramatic drop after Howard implemented Nauru in 2001 - only one boat with one person in 2002 and then at first gradual increase since labor changed the policy and once word got around, massive increase in the last two years:






Graphic showing the number of asylum seekers who have arrived in Australia by boat since 1989. Graphic: Matt Pike
Source: News Limited

Found on this article: Villawood Detention Centre rioters may be forced home


----------



## noco (23 April 2011)

I wonder if we will be singing this song in 20, 30, 40 or 50 years time. Or will it be we are 21 and not one.


http://www.youtube.com/storytellermedia


----------



## Julia (23 April 2011)

The following is from the link provided by Sails:



> Should asylum-seeker protesters be immediately deported?
> 
> * Yes 94.48% (633 votes)
> * No 5.52% (37 votes)
> ...




Also from the same article is the statement that a portable kitchen has been flown in from Melbourne to ensure the detainees continued to enjoy hot meals.

What????

If they destroy the kitchen, let them live with the consequences.
This sort of pandering to criminal behaviour is utter madness.


----------



## Glen48 (23 April 2011)

Seems to me if you are foreign your have the world at your feet and if you were born here  suck it up they need more help than you do,,,


----------



## drsmith (23 April 2011)

sails said:


> Here's an interesting graph from the Herald Sun - it doesn't appear to include arrivals so far this year in 2011.  Note the dramatic drop after Howard implemented Nauru in 2001 - only one boat with one person in 2002 and then at first gradual increase since labor changed the policy and once word got around, massive increase in the last two years:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even opponents of the former Coalition government's policies are now getting stuck in;



> The Villawood standoff came as opinion began to shift on detention policies among former opponents of John Howard's offshore detention regime.
> 
> Psychiatrist Tanveer Ahmed, who opposed the Howard government's policy of offshore detention and processing when it was introduced, now says the Pacific Solution was "more humane" than the current approach to the treatment of asylum-seekers.
> 
> "What the government is doing is essentially inviting more people to come to Australia, and then detaining them for lengthy periods," Dr Ahmed said. "That is a greater evil than offshore processing."




Adding further insult to injury, the graphic above is even more shocking for Labor when seen in the following context;



> He said it was no coincidence that at a time when refugee numbers were declining in other parts of the world, there was a sharp upswing in arrivals in Australia.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ut-heat-on-labor/story-fn59niix-1226043544659


----------



## bellenuit (24 April 2011)

Julia said:


> Also from the same article is the statement that a portable kitchen has been flown in from Melbourne to ensure the detainees continued to enjoy hot meals.
> 
> What????
> 
> ...




I don't have an issue with the portable kitchen as presumably there were many detainees who didn't participate in the protest and they need to be fed. I think we should act humanely to the asylum seekers we detain, so long as they don't break the law. If they break the law, as the protesters did, those involved should be sent to prison, but those who didn't participate shouldn't be punished.

That isn't to say that all means should not be taken to prevent asylum seekers coming here in the first place, other than through approved channels.

My take on the whole issue is that we should withdraw from the asylum seeker convention so that those who try to exploit our generosity though legal means have no basis for doing so. However, we should still take a big number of genuine asylum seekers, but only on our terms, not on the basis of an outdated and no longer appropriate convention.


----------



## sails (24 April 2011)

Here we go again - another two boats have arrived - one carrying 80 people.  One of the boats arrived at Cocos Island and the opposition have serious concerns if the island can handle these illegal arrivals or if the smugglers are trying something different:

More here from the ABC: Asylum seekers land on Cocos Island


----------



## Julia (24 April 2011)

From today's "Sunday Mail":


> Taxpayers are being slugged thousands of dollars to reward asylum seekers with luxuries such as automated nose hair trimmers and cigarettes for doing art classes and playing sport.
> 
> Detainees are entitled to claim the battery operated grooming gadgets, smokes, phone cards and snacks by using extra points they earn for playing soccer, volleyball and table tennis and attending English lessons.


----------



## noco (27 April 2011)

Gillard and Bowen have completly lost the plot on our border protection. 

Temporary protection visas!!!!!!!!!!

Could they now be looking at Nauru??????????

No, that would be too much like swallowing their pride.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nd-aid-solutions/story-e6frgd0x-1226045205436


----------



## noco (27 April 2011)

And here is Andrew Bolt's view on Labor's wayward policies on asylum seekers.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...on_its_labor_who_will_need_a_protection_visa/


----------



## noco (27 April 2011)

Another Labor 'back flip'. How much more sloppy can they get?


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ouriermail/comments/just_stop_the_damn_boats/


----------



## Happy (27 April 2011)

I am against violent people getting permanent residency in our country.

We have enough troubled people without them.

Interesting how would police react if somebody this way would ‘fight’ for unemployment benefit, job or housing commission accommodation?

This had taken too long to react!


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2011)

noco said:


> Another Labor 'back flip'. How much more sloppy can they get?



A double backflip with the usual bellyflop entry ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/27/3201376.htm



> He says the temporary visa will have two classes.
> 
> "A temporary visa which says either A: we will return you when we can, or B: if you become a good community resident, a good resident of Australia and you have a good behaviour track record over a period of time then we will consider other arrangements for you," he said.



They must be getting very dizzy by now.

Pressure from the Greens ?


----------



## noco (27 April 2011)

Tony Abbott must have been like a breath of fresh air to Serco and the Federal Police on Xmas Island but not so for the asylum seekers. They could all end up on Nauru by Xmas.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...christmas-island/story-e6frg6nf-1226045245809


----------



## tothemax6 (27 April 2011)

Ah look, looking at it objectively, the policy of the left is very clear:
"maximize the hurt we inflict on the Australian nation, whilst posing as moral".

Labor and the Greens cannot simply pour cyanide in our reservoirs, nor can they run people over in the street with bulldozers - these things stand out very starkly to the populace. The populace would probably get *too* angry, and take physical action.

No, the actions of the Left are fine tuned - inflict damage that is cumulative, and inflict it slowly enough that people are uncomfortable, but not too uncomfortable that they would take the actions required to stop the things happening. 

Seriously, if Indonesia invaded tomorrow, Labor would say 'Australia needs to accommodate people from countries less privileged than ours, and embrace the vibrant culture of these boat-people', and give them 'temporary protection visas'. Any opposition to this would of course be 'xenophobic, islamophobic, racism'. 

Can anyone imagine what it would be like if the Left simply disappeared, as though they never existed? I imagine it would feel like filling your lungs with fresh air after a life lived in a polluted city. 
No crime, a booming economy, low taxes, low divorce rates, equality under the law, a functional navy, a national identity...
Paradise.


----------



## noco (27 April 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> Ah look, looking at it objectively, the policy of the left is very clear:
> "maximize the hurt we inflict on the Australian nation, whilst posing as moral".
> 
> Labor and the Greens cannot simply pour cyanide in our reservoirs, nor can they run people over in the street with bulldozers - these things stand out very starkly to the populace. The populace would probably get *too* angry, and take physical action.
> ...




How true! How very true!!!!!!!!


----------



## Julia (27 April 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> No, the actions of the Left are fine tuned - inflict damage that is cumulative, and inflict it slowly enough that people are uncomfortable, but not too uncomfortable that they would take the actions required to stop the things happening.



Can you explain just why any government would want to destroy the wellbeing of its populace, even this woeful excuse for a government?

I suppose the answer will be that to do so would be to produce a population that is in fear and cowering, therefore more easily manipulated.

If so, then that may have stacked up a long time ago, but I doubt it will these days.
Just consider the exponential slide in the polls of the government as they lurch from disaster to disaster.
The great majority of the voting public are not nearly as stupid as governments suppose.


----------



## tothemax6 (27 April 2011)

Julia said:


> Can you explain just why any government would want to destroy the wellbeing of its populace, even this woeful excuse for a government?



I have still to discover the answer to that question to my satisfaction. The reality is, a large portion of them _do_ genuinely enjoy the idea of the populace suffering (look at religions, for instance, they have always praised suffering and going without as a virtue). Others of course, are like the doctor treating a broken arm like a dislocation - making it worse, convinced he is doing good.
In the end, their actions are as they are, the effects of those actions indicate their motives, the origin of those motives are a secondary question .


----------



## Calliope (28 April 2011)

I heard the Immigration Minister, Chris Bowen, being interviewed on the radio yesterday. Rather than admit that they have no solution to the illegals, this barefaced liar said the the Timor solution could still be a goer.


----------



## drsmith (28 April 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> In the end, their actions are as they are, the effects of those actions indicate their motives, the origin of those motives are a secondary question .



Governments and political parties go wrong when there idiological beliefs become inconsistent with the well being of the people they represent.

In the case of Federal Labor, their primary idiological belief is power at any cost. Like NSW Labor, they will pay a heavy price at the ballot box and the longer they are in power, the bigger the economic price Australia will pay. Many Labor politicians would realise this, but like the Titanic afer it hit the iceberg, their internal culture is such that they can't stop the ship from sinking.

John Howard was personally not much different in the leadup to the 2007 election. He was addicted to power and the culture within the Coalition was such that nothing effectively could be done.


----------



## derty (28 April 2011)

drsmith said:


> In the case of Federal Labor, their primary idiological belief is power at any cost.



I don't think they are that insidious. I think they are just inept and reactionary and are kowtowing on too many fronts.


----------



## IFocus (28 April 2011)

derty said:


> I don't think they are that insidious. I think they are just inept and reactionary and are kowtowing on too many fronts.





Have to agree derty


----------



## sails (28 April 2011)

drsmith said:


> ...In the case of Federal Labor, their primary idiological belief is power at any cost....




According to the Essential Media research report dated yesterday, 27th April, 72% of those polled agree with you.  As I said on the other thread, we are not alone...lol

Derty and IFocus, that leaves 28% agreeing with you.

Here is the poll again - thought some of that poll fitted in with the conversations on this thread as well: 

http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/


----------



## Julia (28 April 2011)

derty said:


> I don't think they are that insidious. I think they are just inept and reactionary and are kowtowing on too many fronts.



Agree about them being reactionary (usually to polls) and having to kowtow to too many interest groups.

Can you expand on your use above of 'insidious'?


----------



## sptrawler (28 April 2011)

The problem is the more things change, the more they stay the same.
To give it a football analogy, Labor is so busy trying to to take a screamer to turn things around, the game is getting away from them. 
We are entering the last quarter they  haven't taken a mark, they haven't kicked a goal and the rushed behinds are their highest score.
With the high draft pick Garrett, badly injured in the first quarter substitute Combet has not thrown his body into the pack as the team would have wanted. 
But after loosing the captain to a nasty in the back from one of his team mates, who can blame him.
The vice captain is finding the suspect in the back on the catain has elevated her to the corporate box. She's finding it is much easier to enjoy the trappings of the top job, than getting the ball and turning it over in the first quarter.
Ruck rover Swan keeps skirting the pack but seems afraid to pick up the ball, when it lands with him he is quick to move it on. Lacklustre performance in the first three quarters.
Big things were expected fro Ferguson, but seems to be worried the opposition knows his weakness and is playing one kick behind play, hopefully to pick up the crumbs.
Actually I'm finding it hard to pick someone in the team who can turn it around and kick a winning score


----------



## derty (29 April 2011)

That's a funny analogy sptrawler 

Julia, malignant may have been a better choice of words. To have your primary political ideology being power at any cost places you in the realms of Gaddafi, Amin, Mugabe, Pinochet e.t.c. Labor doesn't fit this bill. They are a minority govt that is rating poorly and acting desperately. Judging by their actions and the results of their actions it's hard to see how they are attempting to hold onto power at any cost. You would be excused from thinking that they are trying to loose it. 

Sails, it was only a month ago that the Libs polled 72% for the same question. I'd be surprised if any political party didn't poll high on that question.


----------



## sails (29 April 2011)

derty said:


> ...Sails, it was only a month ago that the Libs polled 72% for the same question. I'd be surprised if any political party didn't poll high on that question.




Derty, Labor is gaining and Liberal is dropping on that score.  I think (and hope) Aussies are waking up to what's really going on.  This is almost a case of Howard's work choices being repeated but this time it's Labor with carbon tax, failed asylum issues and NBN with some big question marks.  

During that time, only the most diehard Lib supporters would have defended work choices.  I realised Libs were flogging a dead horse with the policy and the demise of Liberal was as clear as crystal.   I now see the same with labor's stubborness to not take the issues of carbon tax to the next election and to fail so miserably in their pre-election promise to stop the boats.  

On the polled question of keeping promises:
 Labor:  20% said yes (down 13%) since March 2010
 Liberal: 33% said yes (up 10% since March 2010

It's interesting that Labor actually polled much better during Rudd's time as elected PM - it seems that Gillard has lost her way more than Rudd.


----------



## drsmith (29 April 2011)

derty said:


> Julia, malignant may have been a better choice of words. To have your primary political ideology being power at any cost places you in the realms of Gaddafi, Amin, Mugabe, Pinochet e.t.c. Labor doesn't fit this bill.



Power at any cost in the context of our political environment. 

That does not mean that they would not accept the result of the ballot box and behave like the leaders above. It is more a reference to their general slide in political honesty and the deals they do with minorities such as the carbon tax.


----------



## drsmith (29 April 2011)

Meanwhile, in East Timor......

http://www.smh.com.au/national/east...l-talks-on-refugee-centre-20110428-1dynq.html


----------



## sails (29 April 2011)

drsmith said:


> Meanwhile, in East Timor......
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/east...l-talks-on-refugee-centre-20110428-1dynq.html





Well, they are clearly much smarter than our questionably honourable PM...

After the violence and riots over here, I suspect they don't want any more violence than they already have. 

I expect this government to suffer huge losses at the next election is a similar way to 2007 over Howard's work choices.  Between this failure to follow through with her pre-election promise of stopping the boats plus lie over carbon tax is creating massive voter outrage.


----------



## sails (29 April 2011)

And another 77 more heading to Christmas Island with the usual copy'n'paste about undergoing security, identity and health checks and their reasons for travel to be established:

From the HeraldSun: Navy assists asylum seeker boat northwest of Ashmore Islands



Let's hope that what is happening in the UK is not going to happen here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rgeting-women-gays-bid-impose-sharia-law.html


----------



## Julia (29 April 2011)

drsmith said:


> Meanwhile, in East Timor......
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/east...l-talks-on-refugee-centre-20110428-1dynq.html



Well, that's pretty clear.  Where do the government go from here?
Meanwhile, Mr Abbott continues to urge the government that all they need to do is pick up the phone to Nauru, where the facilities already exist and the government would welcome the reinstatement of the detention centre.

I think Labor would gain more support by acknowledging their failure and taking this option than they will from continuing to be in denial about the problem.


----------



## sails (6 May 2011)

Looks like the government is finally, finally going to do something about it, albeit a couple of years too late.  Manus Island is small, so the government might still need Nauru until word gets around that they won't be coming directly to Australia.  But at least this seems a step in the right direction and let's hope it is stitched up quickly:

Full article from ABC: PNG confirms talks to reopen Manus Island detention centre



> The ABC has confirmed that the Federal Government is seeking to have the Manus Island offshore processing centre in Papua New Guinea re-opened.


----------



## Ferret (6 May 2011)

Yes, credit where credit is due, this seems like a good move.


----------



## derty (7 May 2011)

sails said:


> Looks like the government is finally, finally going to do something about it, albeit a couple of years too late.  Manus Island is small, so the government might still need Nauru until word gets around that they won't be coming directly to Australia.  But at least this seems a step in the right direction and let's hope it is stitched up quickly:
> 
> Full article from ABC: PNG confirms talks to reopen Manus Island detention centre



In a reaction to the polls, Labor is beginning to adopt Liberal policies to attempt to defuse the rise in Liberal popularity and impending electoral defeat. It's very similar to the Liberals absorbing the One Nation voters by stealing their polices. She is getting scared.


----------



## sails (15 May 2011)

And another free perk offered by Rudd/Gillard governments at tax payer expense.  No wonder these people are willing to risk their lives to come to the land where there is a never ending money supply.  Never mind that the people who supply the money might be doing it tough.

Labor are refusing to detail the costs, but  Morrison had this to say:



> Opposition immigration spokesman Scott Morrison described the refusal to detail the cost as a joke.
> 
> "Labor's refusal to disclose the cost of their open-ended policy for taxpayer-funded phone calls by detainees is typical of a government that has grown insensitive to the blowout in asylum-seeker costs that now stands at $3 billion on their watch," Mr Morrison said.



Full story here from the HeraldSun: *Refugee phone bills paid by us*


----------



## drsmith (2 June 2011)

All is not well with Labor's proposed refugee swap with Malaysia.



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has staked a large part of her political future on achieving the Malaysia agreement.
> 
> Her announcement in early May that Australia would swap refugees with Malaysia set off a flurry of diplomatic talks and meetings.
> 
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/02/3234280.htm?section=justin


----------



## bellenuit (3 June 2011)

drsmith said:


> All is not well with Labor's proposed refugee swap with Malaysia.
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/02/3234280.htm?section=justin




What infuriates me most about the planned agreement with Malaysia is that Australia is made to look like idiots, just to save face for the Labor party.


----------



## drsmith (3 June 2011)

bellenuit said:


> What infuriates me most about the planned agreement with Malaysia is that Australia is made to look like idiots, just to save face for the Labor party.



A glimmer of hope is that this government is looking like idiots to a growing majority.

They start fires they can't control and are then inept at putting them out.


----------



## sails (3 June 2011)

This labor government becomes more bizarre by the day.  Many of us have been ridiculed and called racist because we voiced concerns at the escalation of boat arrivals since Labor canned the Pacific Solution and yet where are all these name callers now that labor catapults from one extreme to the other from an open border policy with a huge welcome to all and sundry and now threatens to send them to possible torture?  And this is to include unaccompanied children...

And it looks like GetUp are showing their true colours in staying silent on this issue.  I thought they had some interest in human rights????

The Pacific Solution had it's problems, but it did give the boat arrivals a safe place to go while their identies were sorted out, and is clearly a far better system than the awful bungling labor has done with border policy, imo. 

From the Austraian by James Massola and Joe Kelly  (bold is mine):
ALP Left reserves judgment on refugee swap, rejects Tony Abbott's call for revolt on issue



> THE Labor Left has declined to criticise Australia's refugee swap with Malaysia, as left-leaning activist group GetUp! ruled out a campaign against the deal.
> 
> Amid revelations that the words “human rights” are absent from a draft agreement, Left faction leader Stephen Jones said it was too early to pass judgment on the deal's humanitarian outcomes.
> 
> *The draft deal would also allow unaccompanied minors to be sent to Malaysia - which canes asylum-seekers - and give the country a right of veto on which asylum-seekers it takes*.


----------



## Julia (3 June 2011)

What a mess.  In the interview with Tony Jones on Lateline last night, Chris Bowen was extremely flustered - understandably, given how silly the government are now looking over this deal which is generating criticism from all sides.

They still have the Nauru option sitting there waiting.  That they can, purely for what they perceive to be political disadvantage, refuse to adopt this, especially in the light of Malaysia's unacceptable conditions, is just incredible.


----------



## noco (3 June 2011)

Julia said:


> What a mess.  In the interview with Tony Jones on Lateline last night, Chris Bowen was extremely flustered - understandably, given how silly the government are now looking over this deal which is generating criticism from all sides.
> 
> They still have the Nauru option sitting there waiting.  That they can, purely for what they perceive to be political disadvantage, refuse to adopt this, especially in the light of Malaysia's unacceptable conditions, is just incredible.




Julia, I also watched that interview. Chris Uhllman had certainly done his homework and had the obnoxiuos Bowen tied up in knots.

The Labor Party will not use Nauru because it was a coalition initiative, which, as we all know was successful.To now use Nauru, Gillard knows it would bring about huge criticism against her parties failed policies.


----------



## sails (4 June 2011)

noco said:


> Julia, I also watched that interview. Chris Uhllman had certainly done his homework and had the obnoxiuos Bowen tied up in knots.
> 
> The Labor Party will not use Nauru because it was a coalition initiative, which, as we all know was successful.To now use Nauru, Gillard knows it would bring about huge criticism against her parties failed policies.




She already has huge criticism with labor's string of failed asylum seeker policy attempts.  Labor came into office with both a surplus and a working solution for asylum seekers.  It seems they have ruined both.

Even if she does resort to something along the lines of Nauru, unfortunately, I think she would add her own "twist" to it so that it is different to the Coalition's policy.  Going by her track record, that "twist" would also be it's undoing.


----------



## sails (4 June 2011)

More calls for the Pacific Solution from refugee activists.  But, as I said in my last post, would Gillard and Bowen actually use something that has been proven to work, or will they have to add their own potentially disasterous twist so they can say "it's not the same"?  Only time will tell...



> Marion Le, a refugee lawyer, last night urged Labor to reopen the Nauru processing centre - the same facility she demanded be shut in 2005 because of concern about the treatment of asylum-seekers.
> 
> She was backed by human rights lawyer Julian Burnside, who accused Labor of failure on refugees and said asylum-seekers would receive better treatment in Nauru than Malaysia.




Full article from the Australian by Matthew Franklin and Lanai Vasek: 
Labor urged to revive Pacific Solution by refugee activists


----------



## drsmith (4 June 2011)

And this,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/04/3235529.htm



> The UN refugee agency has dealt a blow to the Government's hopes of finalising a refugee swap deal with Malaysia, refusing to support it without changes.
> 
> The United Nations High Commission on Refugees (UNHCR) says it was not informed in advance that the agreement would include unaccompanied children.
> 
> Head of the Washington office, Vincent Cochetel, has told the ABC he is concerned Australia could be in breach of its obligations under the international Refugee Convention.


----------



## sails (4 June 2011)

It seems that Gillard has no clue what she is doing.  And as she doesn't have to consult with her MPs, it seems she can make whatever decisions she wants and labor MPs have to toe the party line.

I think the disasters with Rudd and now even worse, imo, with Gillard would have to make labor MPs want to do something to change this seemingly undemocratic party policy which would force some consultation with the MPs (who are the people's representatives).

I think they could stand up and make noises as Gillard is clearly not going to sack or suspend any on her fragile side of politics.  Even if labor changed leaders, the indies would be more likely to continue to support labor no matter who is the leader as they would not want their newfound power to be lost due to an early election.


----------



## noco (4 June 2011)

sails said:


> More calls for the Pacific Solution from refugee activists.  But, as I said in my last post, would Gillard and Bowen actually use something that has been proven to work, or will they have to add their own potentially disasterous twist so they can say "it's not the same"?  Only time will tell...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why can't this incompentent Prime Minister of ours swallow her pride and use Nauru?

What is she afraid of in admitting her mistakes?"

She has lied so many times; she has back flipped on numerous occassions; surely another change of mind is in order.

She now has the UNHCR and several of Labor MP'S going against her decision on Makaysia. The woman must have only half a brain.


----------



## drsmith (4 June 2011)

Words come back to bite.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/06/03/1226069/014125-110604-labor.pdf

Do they ever.


----------



## drsmith (4 June 2011)

The backdown after the UN slapdown.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...d-asylum-seekers/story-fn59niix-1226069208420


----------



## Julia (4 June 2011)

In this evening's ABC Radio News it was stated that the UNHCR have formally withdrawn their support for the government's Malaysia plan.

Just unbelievable that the government learns nothing from past mistakes and keeps announcing these "solutions" before working out the details and confirming with the relevant other parties.


----------



## noco (5 June 2011)

It makes me wonder if Gillard, in her own mind, would dearly like to use Nauru, but just won't swallow her pride to do it.
Talk about being 'pig headed'!!!!! 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...lards-hands-tied/story-e6frgd0x-1226068966776


----------



## noco (6 June 2011)

Here we go again with another bungled negotiation by this brainless Prime Minister and her 'yap yap' poodle Chris Bowen.
Will we ever see anything they do the right way. Makes one wonder.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-fiasco-this-bad/story-fn59niix-1226069729114


----------



## sails (6 June 2011)

Hmmm - this could be interesting...

Ms Parke, a federal labor MP and a former United Nations lawyer, said she could not agree to any deal that did not have the support of the UNHCR.  Wonder if she will cross the floor? 

No point in labor suspending her because they need every MP.  Probably labor MPs have never had it so good in being able to speak out because Gillard needs everyone of them desperately so she can stay in power.

Story from Sky News: Labor MP unhappy about Malaysia deall


----------



## Calliope (6 June 2011)

It beats working for a living. 



> *TAXPAYERS are facing multimillion-dollar compensation payouts* to current and former asylum seekers who claim they have suffered trauma and psychological damage while in detention.
> 
> Legal and medical sources said scores of detainees were preparing claims against the Federal Government and detention centre operators Serco and G4S.






> Among those making claims are Iranian asylum seeker Mehrnoosh Yousefi and her adult son, who have been granted refugee status.
> 
> Mrs Yousefi's husband, former Iranian oil industry engineer *Parviz Yousefi, achieved notoriety when he sewed his lips together and attempted suicide several times* while in detention at Woomera between 2001 and 2004.
> 
> *In 2008, Mr Yousefi was reportedly awarded a record damages payout of more than $800,000 for psychological damage suffered in detention*.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...age-in-detention/story-e6freooo-1226069739639


----------



## Julia (6 June 2011)

Incredible.  But if our laws allow them to do this, I suppose you can't blame them for getting whatever they can.
Change the law, fergawdsake!


----------



## sails (6 June 2011)

Calliope said:


> It beats working for a living.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...age-in-detention/story-e6freooo-1226069739639




And, clearly, the financial prizes of potential welfare rorters to be found here in Oz are worth risking lives in flimsy boats, even the lives of children.

I would be very surprised if genuine refugees behaved so badly or were so greedy.  The genuine ones are usually grateful to have a safe place to live and also seem to want to be self sufficient financially as soon as possible and want to assimilate into their new, safer land.


----------



## bellenuit (6 June 2011)

Julia said:


> Incredible.  But if our laws allow them to do this, I suppose you can't blame them for getting whatever they can.
> Change the law, fergawdsake!




Again I think this is another reason we should withdraw from the UN Convention on Refugees. I am not suggesting we take less refugees. In fact I think we should take a lot more. But on our terms. 

Not being a signatory allows us to reject boat arrivals (should we wish to do so) without needing a Pacific solution of any flavour. Those whom we deem not genuine refugees would have no access to our legal system to delay or overturn our decision. There would be no grounds for damages as in the case above as we would not have a duty of care (or the same degree of duty of care) as would be afforded to those who arrive under the convention. 

I also think it might make taking refugees more palatable to Australians if the feel they are not being abused or taken for fools by some of the "illegal" migrants.

Clearly we can't take everybody and our government, if acting responsibly, must cap the amount spent on our refugee intake. I believe being outside the convention will allow us to actually settle far more refugees for any given expenditure than being in it, because we won't have resources wasted on these legal ploys and pacific solutions.


----------



## noco (7 June 2011)

How many times have we heard Gillard, Bowen, Swan and their puppets repeat the same untruth about the asylum seekers who were processed in Nuaru.

Yes, they all try to convince voters that all asylum seekers processed in Nuaru finished up in Australia.

The link below indicates more LIES told by Labor. 

I wonder if these people could lie straight in bed. I doubt it.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-sleight-of-hand/story-e6frgd0x-1226070517483


----------



## Julia (7 June 2011)

A side link to the above also shows The Coalition down 2 % points in both the primary and the 2PP vote, and Labor a similar amount up in both in the latest Newspoll.
Julia Gillard is still preferred PM.

Mr Abbott's stakes improved significantly when he was actually talking policy, e.g. when he went and sat in the dirt in the NT with indigenous people.  This demonstrated doing something positive and indicated that his concern with the troubles here is genuine.
Ditto when he came out with positive initiatives in mental health.

Imo he needs to focus much more on his party's capacity to improve the current mess, rather than just mindlessly repeating stuff like "a big new tax" etc.
People need more than that.  He's at risk, imo, of treating the electorate like dopes if he doesn't present a more thoughtful and sophisticated platform.


----------



## sails (7 June 2011)

One policy Abbott will likely revive is the Pacific Solution:








Source: http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/labor/


----------



## noco (7 June 2011)

Cory Bernadi hits the nail on the head with the Malaysin versus the Nauru solution.

Gillard and Bowen have lost all credibility with their negotiations with Malaysia. They must be the laughing stock around the world.

Is it any wonder Kevin Rudd is keeping clear of the deal!!!!!!


http://www.corybernardi.com/2011/06...m_campaign=Feed:+CoryBernardi+(Cory+Bernardi)


----------



## sails (7 June 2011)

Below is the beginning of the green light that has got labor into such a major mess:


----------



## sails (10 June 2011)

Here's a new development for children in detention:



> A PLANELOAD of unaccompanied children has been dumped at the Port Augusta refugee camp as pressure mounts on the Gillard government over its Malaysian refugee swap deal.




From the Telegraph by Geoff Chambers and Bryan Littlely:
Asylum seeker children dumped in camp at Port Augusta

The article also discusses tags to protect asylum seekers from harsh punishment, including caning whilst in Malasia.  However, it appears that a tagged system was tried once before in 2004 and failed.

Can this government get anything right?  How they can continue to bungle a system that worked so well under the Pacific Solution is beyond me.


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2011)

sails said:


> Can this government get anything right?  How they can continue to bungle a system that worked so well under the Pacific Solution is beyond me.



I can just see the product garantee from People Smuggler Inc.

One free cruise to Australia for each identity tag.


----------



## Julia (10 June 2011)

From the Telegraph article:



> man rights groups warn Malaysia's 90,000 refugees could stage mass revolts over plans to give the asylum seekers special treatment.




This is a good point which underscores Malaysia's unwillingness to have any special conditions attach to the asylum seekers from here.

Btw, I've been assuming that the 800 to be sent to Malaysia will be just the first lot and that if the boats keep coming then the same deal will be repeated.  Perhaps I'm wrong, and this is a one-off?  Does someone know?

If it's one-off, and does not act as a deterrent to future asylum seekers, what's the government's plan then?

Perhaps they're pinning all their hopes on the harsh conditions in Malaysia ensuring no one in future will risk being sent there?  Seems a bit optimistic to me.


----------



## bellenuit (10 June 2011)

Julia said:


> Btw, I've been assuming that the 800 to be sent to Malaysia will be just the first lot and that if the boats keep coming then the same deal will be repeated.  Perhaps I'm wrong, and this is a one-off?  Does someone know?




You are correct. A few Labor spokespeople have said that more of these deals could be struck with Malaysia and maybe some other countries. I don't have sources, but just what I have heard in interviews over the past week.


----------



## sails (10 June 2011)

bellenuit said:


> You are correct. A few Labor spokespeople have said that more of these deals could be struck with Malaysia and maybe some other countries. I don't have sources, but just what I have heard in interviews over the past week.




And I've also heard that Malaysia can pick and choose which of our 800 they take in the first place... 

Whatever the deal, it's a lousy one for Australia.  We have to apparently pay to accomodate the 800 they take plus pay to get the 4000 over here.

Gillard must have been desperate to strike such an unfair deal.  It makes me wonder just how desperate was she to become PM and was the pork barelling much worse than we know.  I thought she was a good negotiator, but it looks like she tends to be the most desperate and that's not good when she's using tax payer funds and is going against public opinion in much of her policies.


----------



## Julia (10 June 2011)

sails said:


> And I've also heard that Malaysia can pick and choose which of our 800 they take in the first place...
> 
> Whatever the deal, it's a lousy one for Australia.  We have to apparently pay to accomodate the 800 they take plus pay to get the 4000 over here.
> 
> Gillard must have been desperate to strike such an unfair deal.  It makes me wonder just how desperate was she to become PM and was the pork barelling much worse than we know.  I thought she was a good negotiator, but it looks like she tends to be the most desperate and that's not good when she's using tax payer funds and is going against public opinion in much of her policies.



Agree, Sails.  However, I'd be surprised if this deal is not being done in the belief that when potential asylum seekers understand they will not be admitted to Australia but will end up in Malaysia with its abysmal record on human rights, then the people smugglers will lose the capacity to sell "a passage to Australia".

If that's the case, then I suppose the government considers the costs involved in what they hope will be a one-off deal with Malaysia will be money well spent.
I'd have to agree with them if it does actually happen that way.


----------



## noco (10 June 2011)

Will Malaysia be happy to relieve Australia of the current 100 + trouble makers on Christmas Island?

I would like to know what will happen after Malaysia receive their quota of 800 asylum seekers. Will the people smugglers come back into business again or will Australia expect Malayasia to take another 800.

As I understand the deal is we take back 4000 over a period of 4 years.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ments/will_malaysia_take_these_off_our_hands/


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2011)

noco said:


> Will Malaysia be happy to relieve Australia of the current 100 + trouble makers on Christmas Island?



They make that kind of trouble over there, I'd suggest Malaysia will sort them out with the rattan, identity tags or not.


----------



## drsmith (12 June 2011)

It will be interesting to see what gets announced next week, if anything.



> KUALA LUMPUR: No decision has been made yet in granting immunity to 800 boat people that Australia plans to send to Malaysia.
> Home Ministry secretary-general Datuk Seri Mahmood Adam said the committee set up by the ministry is still studying details of the arrangement.
> 
> "The committee, chaired by deputy secretary-general Datuk Raja Azahar Raja Abdul Manap is still studying the matter.
> ...



http://www.nst.com.my/nst/articles/3tmb/Article#ixzz1OxccREK6


----------



## sails (12 June 2011)

Full story from Bolt's blog today: Malaysia isn’t quite so sure



> The way Malaysia’s New Straits Times reports it, the Gillard Government’s boat people deal is far from being signed, after all:


----------



## noco (13 June 2011)

Nuaru is ready to sign the UNHCR refugee convention. So what will Gillard's excuse be now?


http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=625050&vId=2481311


----------



## sails (16 June 2011)

Malysia is a no go now since the greens joined with the coalition to block it passing the house of reps - article below from the Australian by Lanai Vasek:

*Labor defeated as parliament condemns Malaysia solution* 



> THE Gillard government has suffered an embarrassing defeat in parliament, with the Greens and the Coalition combining to pass a motion opposing its Malaysian refugee swap deal....
> 
> and
> 
> ...The vote followed a similar resolution in the Senate last month, making it *the first time in living memory both houses of parliament have condemned a government policy*.



(Bolds are mine).

Gillard must be fuming.  It gives her another "first" to chalk up in addition to being the first unelected (by the people) female PM.


----------



## drsmith (16 June 2011)

sails said:


> Malysia is a no go now since the greens joined with the coalition to block it passing the house of reps - article below from the Australian by Lanai Vasek:
> 
> *Labor defeated as parliament condemns Malaysia solution*



I don't think the government needs majority parlimantary support for this.

Of interest, Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott suppoerted the Government in the initial vote although that was not enough to give the Government a majority.

Of even greater interest is this,



> The Coalition later tried to capitalise on the government's tactical defeat , seeking to suspend question time to censure the Prime Minister.
> 
> "Shame on you for defying parliament,'' Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said.
> 
> ...



Adam Bandt's initial vote against the government was clearly tokenistic.

The Greens must be still confident of getting their carbon tax.


----------



## IFocus (16 June 2011)

Its wonderful the greens and coalition holding hands for the sake of humanity...............


----------



## noco (16 June 2011)

IFocus said:


> Its wonderful the greens and coalition holding hands for the sake of humanity...............




That could be a big worry because the Greens hands could be cold and slimey.


----------



## sails (16 June 2011)

noco said:


> That could be a big worry because the Greens hands could be cold and slimey.




don't worry, noco.  I don't think the greens and coalition will agree on what will happen to the boat arrivals if Malaysia gets ruled out.


----------



## drsmith (16 June 2011)

IFocus said:


> Its wonderful the greens and coalition holding hands for the sake of humanity...............



It will only be a short handshake, unlike Labor, who are somewhat restrained by the Greens in their current bend-over posture.


----------



## Julia (16 June 2011)

sails said:


> Malysia is a no go now since the greens joined with the coalition to block it passing the house of reps - article below from the Australian by Lanai Vasek:
> 
> *Labor defeated as parliament condemns Malaysia solution*
> 
> ...



It's just a brief, almost irrelevant, victory, unfortunately.  Completely non-binding.
The government are quite entitled under the rules to go ahead.



IFocus said:


> Its wonderful the greens and coalition holding hands for the sake of humanity...............


----------



## sails (17 June 2011)

Julia said:


> It's just a brief, almost irrelevant, victory, unfortunately.  Completely non-binding.
> The government are quite entitled under the rules to go ahead.




Thanks Julia.  I thought it meant something...

Seems that Gillard continues to thumb her nose at any polls showing the majority is not happy with labor and now even goes against decisions by the majority in both houses.  Her apparent stubborness is astounding...


----------



## Julia (17 June 2011)

sails said:


> Thanks Julia.  I thought it meant something...[



Ah, silly you, sails.  Only the expression of the majority of the parliament, nothing really.  



> Seems that Gillard continues to thumb her nose at any polls showing the majority is not happy with labor and now even goes against decisions by the majority in both houses.  Her apparent stubborness is astounding...



Yes, it's breathtaking.  But on the other hand, I can see that in the government's eyes there's no real choice in that they consider they'd look weak and indecisive if they backed away from the Malaysia deal and went to Nauru.

I doubt in reality this is so, but I'm not sure.  Wouldn't the average Australian just think "well, thank heaven they're finally decided to be sensible"?

Then there's the obvious consideration that a deal with Malaysia would in fact be very successful in stopping the dreaded boats, given the fear that must exist about Malaysia's human rights abuses.


----------



## Ferret (17 June 2011)

Julia said:


> But on the other hand, I can see that in the government's eyes there's no real choice in that they consider they'd look weak and indecisive if they backed away from the Malaysia deal and went to Nauru.
> 
> I doubt in reality this is so, but I'm not sure.  Wouldn't the average Australian just think "well, thank heaven they're finally decided to be sensible"?




I think the Nauru option would actually work for Labor in the long run.  Sure, the opposition would make them look like absolute idiots when they announced it, but this would soon be forgotten leaving labor with a policy that would probably work and the opposition having no grounds to criticise it on.

Seems to me its personal pride that is preventing sensible decisions and smart politics here.


----------



## sails (29 June 2011)

More trouble:



> One of six men protesting on the roof of the Darwin Immigration Detention Centre has harmed himself.




Full article from the ABC by Bridget Brennan and Anna Henderson:
*Rooftop protest at Darwin detention centre*


----------



## Julia (29 June 2011)

This was reported in "PM" this evening.  Ms Gillard in response, to her credit, remained quite unmoved by the detainee's behaviour, and said there was no excuse for not behaving reasonably whilst in detention (or words to that effect).


----------



## drsmith (11 July 2011)

Meanwhile, on another front,



> THE Gillard government is breaching international law by refusing to process more than 400 asylum seekers who are being held in detention on Christmas Island until they can be sent to a third country, the United Nations refugee agency has warned.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/asylum-seekers-held-unlawfully-20110710-1h8uq.html


----------



## sails (21 July 2011)

Another boat - and I think there was one a few days ago.  Doesn't look like the threat of Malaysia is deterring them.  It seems that the news is fairly quiet about all this.  Are we becomming complacent with so much going wrong with this government?  

From the Australian Navy intercepts asylum seeker boat 

A BOAT suspected of carrying 52 asylum seekers has been intercepted by the navy near Christmas Island.​

And this is what Chris Bowen said a couple of days ago - it seems he has no clue:

IMMIGRATION Minister Chris Bowen says the government's refugee swap deal with Malaysia has helped cut the number of asylum seekers arriving by boat in Australian waters.​
From the Herald Sun: Malaysia asylum seeker deal is deterring boat arrivals - Minister

Thanks to Andrew Bolt for putting the above links on his blog today: Another boat


----------



## startrader (21 July 2011)

sails said:


> And this is what Chris Bowen said a couple of days ago - it seems he has no clue:
> ....




It's not that he has no clue, it's that he's doing what these charming Labor politicians do in this dishonest government, and that is to say something that is a complete lie in the hope that people believe what they are saying and don't notice what is really going on.


----------



## noco (17 December 2011)

These assylum seekers (illegal boat people) are now entering Australia expecting a Visa, a house and an internet connection.

GOODONYA JU-LIAR. 

How about setting them up in Canberra?

Julia, put your pride aside, send them to Nauru and pull out of the UNHCR convention.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ylum-seekers-ask/story-e6freooo-1226224516236


----------



## quadfin (17 December 2011)

of course they all have the green light, if you have the money, 
They come to Australia for welfare, our passport.
Dissenters please state the amount of money paid in welfare to OS citizens who have not been here for +6 months-10 years, funny if the taxpayer was not paying for it.

these scumbags jump the queue, the government should accept 5000 refugees from UN channels a year than close the book & send the people that expect to come here, home to country of origin, problem solved.

Time to look after Australians rather than  future welfare recipients.


----------



## Julia (17 December 2011)

quadfin said:


> Time to look after Australians rather than  future welfare recipients.



 Especially when we have more than 50% of homeless Australians (many of whom will have paid taxes in their time) being turned away from shelters and forced to sleep on the street.


----------



## quadfin (17 December 2011)

julia how is this for funnies my inlaw cousin earns $40 a hour to look after refugee kids whilst mummy & daddy have some quite time, not work related, THEY are both on benefits..

Why do i pay tax??????


----------



## noco (18 December 2011)

And it's all Tony Abbott's fault, that is what JU-LIAR will claim. Boat sinks with 250 including 40 children on board.

Open Nauru, stop the boats, provide protection visas and pull out of UNHCR. 

Problem solved.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...lum-boat-sinking/story-e6freoox-1226224940351


----------



## quadfin (18 December 2011)

http://www.news.com.au/world/hundreds-missing-in-asylum-boat-sinking/story-e6frfkyi-1226224940351

More death  for a lifetime of centrelink benefits, cap our refugee intake at 4000 close the books send everyone home to country of origin.

Start looking after Australians.


----------



## drsmith (19 December 2011)

The point at which Labor and the Greens sees tham as Australians is when step from Indonesia onto the rickety boat.

What is needed from this government is some basic common sense.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...says-mark-latham/story-fn9hm1gu-1226224975481


----------



## dutchie (19 December 2011)

drsmith said:


> What is needed from this government is some basic common sense.
> 
> [/url]




This has never been Labor policy.


----------



## noco (19 December 2011)

dutchie said:


> This has never been Labor policy.





The history of Labor proves that time and time again. One bad decision after another.


----------



## joea (19 December 2011)

Hi.
With Sarah Hanson Young being more of a spokes person for the greens, I am starting to worry.
In the latest media exposure in regards to the latest sinking (of a boat that is only set up to carry 100). I noticed her eyes repeatedly going from left to right (big time), when answering questions.
Now I am no "body language" expert(should we bring in Alan Pease?), but whats that all about?
joea


----------



## dutchie (19 December 2011)

joea said:


> Hi.
> With Sarah Hanson Young being more of a spokes person for the greens, I am starting to worry.
> In the latest media exposure in regards to the latest sinking (of a boat that is only set up to carry 100). I noticed her eyes repeatedly going from left to right (big time), when answering questions.
> Now I am no "body language" expert(should we bring in Alan Pease?), but whats that all about?
> joea




Joea, don't worry she is just multitasking. Eye exercises at the same time as answering questions.


----------



## Julia (28 December 2011)

> Under newly-announced Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) privacy guidelines for broadcasters, vulnerable groups such as asylum-seekers will be subject to the protection of "seclusion", which may prevent TV networks from showing images of them arriving by boat.
> 
> Acting opposition immigration spokesman Michael Keenan said: “These changes seem to be more politically driven than out of concern for asylum-seekers.”




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/med...driven-coalition/story-e6frg996-1226231807840

Censorship of the media:  what a surprise!


----------



## Whiskers (28 December 2011)

Julia said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/med...driven-coalition/story-e6frg996-1226231807840
> 
> Censorship of the media:  what a surprise!




Isn't the protection of "seclusion" legislated under the mental health act!?

Quite a contradiction... if so many of them are so mentally fragile that they need protection, why are we not turning or sending more back instead of burdening our society with more of them to further clog up our public health system.

I'm not discriminating against mental disease, just trying to find some consistency with their policies.


----------



## Julia (28 December 2011)

This from Chris Kenny is imo an accurate summary of the hypocrisy of the Left when comparing boat arrivals with those who come by plane.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...mments/breathless_turnaround_on_boat_arrivals


----------



## noco (28 December 2011)

Julia said:


> This from Chris Kenny is imo an accurate summary of the hypocrisy of the Left when comparing boat arrivals with those who come by plane.
> http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...mments/breathless_turnaround_on_boat_arrivals




Julia, after reading that link, it is beyond all comprehension to understand the thinking of this inept Green/Labor socialist left wing government to have continued on so long since making the decision to relax the laws in 2008, and to futhermore blame Abbott for the continuation of the influx.

As Howard once quoted,"we will decide who comes to Australia and the manner in which they come". We need skilled trades people not bludgers who will be depending on taxpayer funded social security.


----------



## sptrawler (28 December 2011)

Julia said:


> This from Chris Kenny is imo an accurate summary of the hypocrisy of the Left when comparing boat arrivals with those who come by plane.
> http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...mments/breathless_turnaround_on_boat_arrivals




In my opinion, which means little.
This minority government just highlights why they are indeed a minority government.
Losers proped up by losers. it is very sad.


----------



## Glen48 (7 February 2012)

Broadmedows law court -------- 
MULTICULTURISM AT WORK - WE'VE GOT A REALLY GREAT FUTURE!!!!   NOT!









Just about says it all!!



The accused list over a few days in January 2012 at Victoria's Broadmeadows Magistrates Court.

Informant

Accused

S.CONS BARRY, R

ABBAS, KHEDER

CONST JUSTICE, M

ABDALAMER, SHAHED

S.CONS ARCHIBALD, J

ABDUL-RAHIM, HASSAN

NEVIS, F

AFAESE, PETELO

S.CONS BAMFORD, S

AHMAD, MOHAMMAD

ANDERSON, A

AHMAD, SAMIR

CONST MCNIECE, S

AHMED, UZER

CONST LA FERLITA, A

AHMET, JEREMY

LS.CON CROSS, A

AHMET, JESSICA

CONST PAXMAN, K

AKDOGAN, GUNGOR

CONST O'BRIEN, S

AKDOGAN, GUNGOR

S.CONS BUSIC, D

AKKUS, AYHAN

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

AKTAS, GUREL

CONST LUMSDEN, J

AL HASHIMI, AHMAD

LOUGHMAN, L

AL HASHIMI, AHMAD

S.CONS CARTON, S

AL HASHIMI, AHMAD

MR JOHNSON, G

ALAMARA, NADHIM

S.CONS DOHERTY, S

ALAMEDDINE, AMINA

MANSFIELD, D

AL-ANSARI, HUSSEIN

MS CULPH, R

AL-ASADY, ALI LAZEM

MS GRAHAM, R

ALASHKAR, MIKE

LS.CON SEDGEWICK, P

AL-GHAZAWI, MAJEED

S.CONS GREEN, A

ALI, BARNI

S.CONS GRAY, P

ALI, NISSR

LS.CON SMITH, P

ALILOVIC, PATRICK

CONST MATTHEWS, O

AL-JINAVO, STEVE

S.CONS GREAVES, J

ALLOUCHE, KHALED

CONST HUGHES, C

AL-RUBAIE, ADIL

S.CONS WARD, D

AL-SHERIF, HASANAIN

FORD, C

ALTUNSOY, MESUT

CONST FOSTER, N

ARJAN, AHMAD

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

ASCIAK, MICHAEL CHARLES

VICTORIA POLICE INFRINGEMENT

ASHRAF, MARTIN

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

ASLAM, MUHAMMAD

MS BERBERI, M

ASLAN, SERAP

CONST CLARKSON, S

ATAIAH, HAKIM

S.CONS JONES, R

ATIAH, MARYAM

MS TOUMBAKIS, E

AUGAFAAPAE, IOANE

CONST MURPHY, D

AUGAFAAPAE, IONE

LEWIS, A

AUGAFAAPAE, JOHN

CONST GRAY, R

AUGAFAAPAE, JOHN

CONST FEBEN, M

AWAD, NIDAL

MS KILLENDER, M

AYAD, MAHMOUD

CONST MCNIECE, S

AYOGDU, HAMDI

ABSON, S

AZMAN, YELIZ

CONST MACPHERSON, A

BAKSMATY, IMAN

LS.CON COSTA, C

BALCI, HOLLIE

S.CONS KEUNEN, A

BALMUNCA, YAMAN

LS.CON ZEEHER, C

BANYAI, LUKE

CONST MCNIECE, S

BARAKAT, ALI

CONST SHARMA, S

BARAKAT, ALI

LS.CON WROUT, A

BARAKAT, ALI

CONST COLBAN, L

BARAKAT, ALI

CONST CRAWFORD, J

BARAKAT, ALI

CONST GRAY, K

BARAKAT, ALI

CONST MCNIECE, S

BARAKAT, ALI

CONST JUSTIN, A

BARAKAT, ALI

S.CONS MAVROPOULOS, J

BARKHO, FADI

WATSON, C

BARKHO, JOSEPH

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

BARKHO, LAGEN MICHAEL

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

BAYRAKLI, SEDAT

S.CONS BUGELLY, D

BELHADJ, AHMED

S.CONS DOHERTY, S

BHANDARI, SANCHIT

S.CONS SANDERSON, C

BHATIA, VIKAS

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

BITSAYA, MICKEL

MS SVENDSEN, L

BOUFARRAA, JOSEPH

S.CONS CLAPHAM, R

BRUNI, AIDAN

CONST HILLIER, S

BUDAK, CIHAN

VICTORIA POLICE INFRINGEMENT

BULTAN, HALUK

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

BULUT, MURAT

WINDLOW, T

CAKER, DILEK DIANE

MS RENCONTRE, G

CETINKAYA, METEHAN

S.CONS BARRY, R

CEYLAN, SULEYMAN

MR .

CHEBIB, AHMED

CONST IVORY, J

CHHUN, NOM BOEUN

S.CONS CLAPHAM, R

CHMAISSE, MOHAMAD

S.CONS CLAPHAM, R

CHMAISSE, MOHAMAD

LS.CON HEENAN, J

CIFTI, OZDEN

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

CRNAC, JOZO

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

DALAK, HUSEYIN

SCULLY, S

DORUK, MEHMET

S.CONS GIFFORD, M

DOSAMJH, INDER

JOHNSON, C

EBEJER, ANTHONY MARK

S.CONS VELLA, A

EL ABED, FAWAZ

S.CONS ELLIOTT, J

EL SAYED, TAREK

CONST HILLIER, S

ELBEIROUTY, OMER

S.CONS BARRY, R

ELCHEIKH, ANDRE

LS.CON NOONAN, L

ELHAN, ISMAIL

S.CONS CLAPHAM, R

EL-SAYED, LAYEL TAREK

CONST JANSZ, E

EL-TURK, GHADA

S.CONS DRUMMOND, M

ERCETIN, ABDULLAH

MOONEE VALLEY CITY COUNCIL

ERGIN, GULAHMET

CONST SCHAPPACHER, M

ERPOLAT, KEMAL

MISS MCFARLANE, D

FAHAD, TONY

MISS MCFARLANE, D

FAHAD, TONY

S.CONS BUSIC, D

FAHAD, TONY

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

FALETAU, JOHN TAEILOA

CONST MEDWID, K

FATROUNI, MAHAMAD

CONST JUSTICE, M

FISIAK, KRISTY-JO

MCDONALD, R

FRANCIS, NASSEM

CONST READING, A

GARASI, KHALE

CONST CONNOR, T

GEWARGIS, ASAD

S.CONS ROUSE, P

GHAZELLE, RAWAA

LS.CON WISKEN, A

GIYIK, NIHAT

S.CONS SCHEMBRI, R

GONZALEZ, JUAN ENRIQUE

S.CONS ARGENTINO, M

GRZUNOV, ADRIAN

CUCUZZA, V

GURGULU, UMIT

NOLAN, D

HAMIE, ALI

BUI, M

HAMIE, ALI

MACDONALD, J

HAMIE, ALI

COOPER, A

HAMIE, ALI

CAMPBELL, M

HAMIE, ALI

BETTS, L

HAMIE, ALI

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

HAMIE, ALI

MS CORNELIO, B

HANI, AVIL

MS CORNELIO, B

HAPETA, CHANNEN

S.CONS CLAPHAM, R

HASSAN, ADAM

CONST LIDDICOAT, L

HASSAN, IMAD

S.CONS LANE, A

HASSAN, TAMAR

LS.CON BRILLIANT, A

HASSAN, UMAIR

S.CONS DRAPER, T

HASSOUN, JAMAL

S.CONS AYRES, B

HAYNE, JOSHUA

S.CONS WAKELIN, D

HAYNES, SHANE

VALENTE, L

HAZOURI, MIMO

VICTORIA POLICE - PERIN

HAZOURI, MIMO

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

HIJAZY, GUSS

LS.CON MCGIBBON, B

ISRAEL, HEPH'ZI-BAH

LS.CON RYAN, P

JAMA-HASSAN, ZAHRA

SGT BERRY, P

JARRARI, ABDULLAH

S.CONS AYRES, B

JEMAL, ERSOY

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

JERE, JOHN

S.CONS CUNHA, D

JOMAA, YASSIN

S.CONS CLAPHAM, R

JUMPON, SUPOT

MS POCOCK, K

KABBOUT, SAMIH

S.CONS JAMES, M

KARA, METIN

CONST WARD, T

KARABULUT, OZCAN

S.CONS TAYLOR, B

KAROUMI, AKRAM

HAYES, E

KAYANI, ZAHEER

OLIVEIRA, L

KERDI, BILAL

S.CONS SHORT, L

KERONE, WAAKA

HAYES, E

KESKIN, SALIH

COLBERT, B

KHEIR, MAHMOUD

FITZGERALD, J

KHODR, ABRAHAM

MCDONALD, R

KHODR, AHMAD

LS.CON ANDERSON, P

KHOSHABA, ROYAL

ANDERSON, A

KHOURY, RANIA

MASON, M

KHUSHABA, ROYAL

JENKINS, H

KILINC, MEHMET

RICKWOOD, T

KILLIHER, KIEL

C.COM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE (FORMER)

KOC, BIROL

MS BERBERI, M

KOC, SERVET

TRAFFIC CAMERA OFFICE

KORDEMIR, DENIZ

VALENTE, L

KORDEMIR, DENIZ DJEMAL

SGT DAVIES, B

KORKES, STEVI

LS.CON DOYLE, N

KUMAS, OMAR

CONST TAYLOR, A

KURKEES, FADI

MR GAFFNEY, A

KURTOGLU AKVERDI, SANIYE SONYA

S.CONS SANDERSON, C

LIU, HIN FA

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

LUONG, THAI

MS POWELL, C

LYMBERATOS, ILIAS (LOU)

S.CONS FOLEY, A

MAGHNIE, NABIL

MR GAFFNEY, A

MALLAH, BENIAMINE

MS CORNELIO, B

MAQI, AIVL

MS WINDEBANK, J

MEHMET, KAYI

S.CONS JONES, R

MEKHIEL, ROBERT

S.CONS AYRES, B

MESIS, STAVROS

LS.CON SYCZ, D

MILAN, ZACK

CONST COOMBS, J

MILAN, ZACK

CONST MCNIECE, S

MILAN, ZACK

CONST JUSTICE, M

MIZZI, KARA

SOCCIO, A

MOHAMAD, ABDOULLAH

SGT BOWEN, J

MOHAMAD, ABDULLAH

CONST MCNIECE, S

MOUSSA, RIMA

FISHER, M

MUNSTEGE, KARSTEN

S.CONS COOK, M

MUSTAFA, ZOULFIKAR

S.CONS JOHNSON, B

NEBRIDA, MARIA

CARELLO, G

NESHABE, IBRAHIM

CONST SMITH, S

NESHABE, IBRAHIM

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

NEZIREVIC, FAJKO

BULL, A

NGUYEN, THANH

CONST SMITH, S

NOUREDDINE, MOHAMMED

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

OMAR, MOTASAM

TRAFFIC CAMERA OFFICE

OMAR, MOTASAM

LS.CON GIBSON, C

OSHANA, SAHER

'I' DISTRICT HQ - BROADMEADOWS

OZALP, VOLKAN

HAYES, E

OZGAN, MELTEM

VICTORIA POLICE - TOLL ENFORCEMENT

OZLAP, VOLKAN

COLBERT, B

PAANIUI, DEVANTAE

LEWIS, A

POLUS, ZIED

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

PUEPUEMAI, ELIAPO

CONST JUSTICE, M

RABAH, KHALED

S.CONS VANDERMEER, R

RAHMANI, MOHAMED MOSTPHA

S.CONS KENNEY, C

RASHOO, BUSHRA

MOM, M

REKHI, PARABHJOT

CONST GUTIERREZ, L

ROMANA, KRYSTAL RANGIMARIA

CONST IVORY, J

ROSTANKOVSKI, ALEXANDER

MS WINDEBANK, J

SAAD, ESPIRON

MS THOMPSON, S

SAAD, MAYEZ

MS THOMPSON, S

SAAD, MAYEZ

MS THOMPSON, S

SAAD, MAYEZ

S.CONS THOMSON, A

SAID, ALI

S.CONS HORVAT, J

SAID, ALI

S.CONS ATKINSON, D

SAID, ALI

S.CONS QUINNELL, S

SAID, ALI

SGT LOMAS, S

SARI, AYKUT

S.CONS MANNICHE, C

SARIKAYA, BURAK

CONST O'MEARA, B

SARIKAYA, BURAK

SGT PRENTICE-EVANS, L

SENEL, BURAK

RICKWOOD, T

SHAABAN, BILAL

CONST MCNIECE, S

SHAKROO, GEVEVA

S.CONS MORTON, J

SINGH, BHUPINDER

TRAFFIC CAMERA OFFICE

SINGH, GURINDER

LS.CON BALAS, J

SINGH, PARMINDER

S.CONS CLAPHAM, R

SOAS, BASEM

S.CONS BAMFORD, S

SRPCIC, ALOJZ

CITY OF PORT PHILLIP

TALEB, MAHMOUD AHMAD

S.CONS ALBERT, M

TAYAR, SALAH

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

TRAN, WILLIAMS CONG

COLQUHOUN, L

TUFUGA, SAUNDA JOSEPH

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

TURAN, MURAT

DE RIDDER, N

UCANER, UGUR

GILHAM, M

UCANER, UGUR

HATTENFELS, P

UNANER, UGUR

CONST CALDWELL, M

VLAMIS, ILIAS

LS.CON MCGIBBON, B

VUKOREPA, ROBERT

LS.CON MCGIBBON, B

VUKOREPA, ROBERT

S.CONS JENKINS, L

VUONG, THI XUAN

CCOM CHIEF COMMISSIONER OF POLICE

WIJERANTE, SAMAN KIRIELLAGE

S.CONS MCFARLANE, D

XUEREB, JEFF

HOSKING, G

YADVINDER, YADVINDER

CONST SMITH, D

YANKIN, SENOL

ABSON, S

YEHIA, AYMAN

LS.CON FRILAY, S

YEHIA, MOHAMMED

LS.CON FRILAY, S

YEHIA, MOHAMMED

LS.CON GIERCK, I

YEHIA, YEHIA

MS HARRIS, J

YELES, TOLGA

S.CONS CLOWES, S

YILDIZ, ERKAN

RICKWOOD, T

YOUSIF, RAMEE

MS BRUSCHI, S

YUE, WILLIAM

S.CONS ANDERSON, M

ZERAFA, PAUL

CONST LA FERLITA, A

ZILDZIC, DINO

FITZGERALD, J

ZILDZIC, DINO

HAYES, E

ZOGHEIB, MOHAMMED


----------



## Eager (7 February 2012)

^ Possibly all born here.


----------



## Solly (7 February 2012)

I don't understand the reason for Glen48's post above. 
But to me it did seem that there were no names of indigenous origin in that list.


----------



## Eager (7 February 2012)

Solly said:


> I don't understand the reason for Glen48's post above.



Oh, I do.

But I suggest that even if he sent that list to a fellow White Supremacist like Bolt, he wouldn't touch it.


----------



## Glen48 (7 February 2012)

The Anglo Saxon names are police officers who are pressing charges against the other Australians with the odd sound names but is could be a typo's by the police/court typist.


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2012)

Nobody is going to buy into that one Glen


----------



## noco (4 March 2012)

Roll up roll up boat people the doors are wide open.

The Green/Labor socilast left government of Australia will greet you with open arms.

Bob and Julia will be there to give you your directions upon arrival, unfortunatly you won't be allowed into the lodge and Bob has his doors locked in Tassie.

What a sham!!!!!Bowen will be relaesing 400 a month into the community.

AND OF COURSE IT IS ALL TONY ABBOTT'S FAULT.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...r-asylum-seekers/story-e6freon6-1226288296821


----------



## ColB (4 March 2012)

Glen48 said:


> The Anglo Saxon names are police officers who are pressing charges against the other Australians with the odd sound names but is could be a typo's by the police/court typist.




There does clearly seems to be an over representation of Ahmeds and Ali's in the Broadmeadows Court system.  

I really wonder if the person with the surname McDonald has changed it by deed poll. 

Let's not be too hasty in casting aspersions on their character as one or two may indeed turn out to be a success story like Eddie Maguire or some may even get a job.


----------



## rumpole (11 March 2012)

I haven't had the time to read the entirety of this thread, but I think that while we have a tolerant society at the moment, there are limits.

 The "threat" is not so much through refugees who make up a miniscule proportion of arrivals, but through normal migration especially from Middle Eastern countries who have a different way of life and different customs. 

 The family reunion policy seems to be an open ended Ponzi scheme whereby people can continue to bring in their relatives regardless of their value to us.

 It's not racist to say we should have a hard look at our immigration policies and re-evaluate its benefits to Australia. Let's get some data in the public domain regarding how many new arrivals claim social security benefits and for what periods, and send a few back who are not paying their way.


----------



## dutchie (30 April 2012)

Received this email this morning:-


Subject: Boat People's poem - so true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I cross ocean, poor and broke. 
Take bus, see employment folk. 

Nice man treat me good in there. 
Say I need to see welfare. 


Welfare say, 'You come no more, we send cash right to your door. " 

Welfare cheques - they make you wealthy! Medicare - it keep you healthy! 

By and by, I get plenty money. 
Thanks to you, you Aussie dummy! 

Write to friends in motherland. 
Tell them 'come fast as you can.. " 

They come in turbans and  Toyota trucks,
And buy big house with welfare bucks! 

They come here, we live together. 
More welfare cheques, it gets better! 
    <U>      
Fourteen families, they moving in, 
But neighbour's patience wearing thin. 
Finally, Aussie guy moves away. 
Now I buy his house, then I say, 

'Find more immigrants for house to rent. " 
And in the yard I put a tent. 

 Everything is very good, 
And soon we own the neighborhood. 

We have hobby, it's called breeding. Welfare pay for baby feeding. 
Kids need dentist? Wives need pills? We get free! We got no bills! 
Australians crazy! They work all year, to keep the welfare running here. 
We think Australia  darn good place. 
Too darn good for Aussie race! 
If they no like us, they can scram. Got lots of room in Afghanistan ! 



PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY Australian TAXPAYER YOU KNOW


----------



## StumpyPhantom (30 April 2012)

rumpole said:


> I haven't had the time to read the entirety of this thread, but I think that while we have a tolerant society at the moment, there are limits.
> 
> The "threat" is not so much through refugees who make up a miniscule proportion of arrivals, but through normal migration especially from Middle Eastern countries who have a different way of life and different customs.
> 
> ...




+1.

I'm with you Rumpole (nice name, you must be a lawyer) but I can't claim to be racist either for I myself am a first generation migrant.

I'm not really into Dutchie's poems though - it seems to me to make light of a very serious issue, and it robs the debate of its legitimacy to parade such strong racist overtones.

Let's not skew the debate with this sort of sensationalism, please.


----------



## Glen48 (30 April 2012)

IF China is being asked to take 40 Million Japanese about 1/3 rd of the population to move in to their unused properties how long before Australia is put on the spot and asked to take a few Million?
 What will happen to house prices or the feds money supply to process them through migration and other logistics  etc.
Japan has no money to assist us as well as China and all the other countries likely to be asked to take the population of Toyota and good chance of more to follow.


----------



## sails (30 April 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> +1.
> 
> I'm with you Rumpole (nice name, you must be a lawyer) but I can't claim to be racist either for I myself am a first generation migrant.
> 
> ...





Hi Stumpy, apart from the mention of Afghanistan, I don't see that Dutchie's poem is racist.  I think it describes pretty well the drain on taxpayers in this country.  Sadly, taxpayers have had no say in how this government decides to keep throwing money at arrivals to our open borders.

With people coming without ID, surely we have no idea who is actually coming in here.  I reckon our Anzacs would turn in their graves when they gave their lives to keep our country free.

I am not racist.  Have lived in and visited several countries around the globe and have had no problem accepting people for who they are.  However, I do have problem with people finding loopholes in our generosity which surely should be reserved for genuine refugees only.  Even Bowen admitted that many come here are not the real deal, however, their country refuses to have them back.  Surely they should be discouraged from pushing their way in here and at our expense?


----------



## sails (3 May 2012)

Some recent headlines on this issue.  It seems Labor's lack of border policy is bringing asylum seekers (not necessarily refugees) here in droves.  

Aussies asked to take in asylum seekers, and be paid for it 

Fourth asylum boat arrival this week 

1500 and the asylum seeker boats just keep coming 

Asylum policy too great a drawcard 


And this from October last year:



> More than 40 per cent of asylum seekers who arrived by boat in the past year were Iranians and, of the ones assessed, about two-thirds have had their application for refugee status rejected.
> 
> Because Iran will not allow Australia to send the Iranians home, Immigration Minister Chris Bowen faces the choice of locking them up indefinitely, releasing them into the community or attempting to reach agreement to transport them to a third country.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ars-in-detention/story-e6freuy9-1226180501361


----------



## dutchie (13 May 2012)

The Labor government has given up on border control and is leaving its huge mess for the Liberal party to clean up when it wins the next election.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (13 May 2012)

dutchie said:


> The Labor government has given up on border control and is leaving its huge mess for the Liberal party to clean up when it wins the next election.




+1

The boat arrivals are now maxing up:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/fifth-boat-arrival-this-week-20120511-1ygwp.html

But I wouldn't say Labor's given up completely.  Every boat arrival is accompanied by a Bowen press release blaming the Coalition - HA HA!

http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/cb/2012/cb186583.htm


----------



## roxane (14 May 2012)

Unfortunately those who make the decision in relation to asylum seekers, they never ever lived in a multicultural suburb. But I did. And every Australian who didn't or couldn't move out in time from those areas, you just have to ask them what they think of their multicultural neighborhood. Before you make any judgement, go and find out yourself first how is it like to live among them. There are always some exceptions of course, but the majority is not compatible with the Australian democratic values.


----------



## sails (4 June 2012)

4 Corners tonight at 8:30pm  "Smugglers' Paradise - Australia" will be on - here is an excerpt from the link below:



> What Four Corners discovers is shocking and calls into question the entire refugee assessment process.
> 
> How did they get here and how can they operate their criminal network with impunity right under the nose of police and immigration authorities?



http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/05/31/3515475.htm


And more boats - from news.com.au:  Navy intercepts fourth boat in four days 

Gillard could fix this.  Abbott has offered bipartisan support for the system that worked previously.


----------



## numbercruncher (4 June 2012)

Im thinking if we stop patrolling these Waters and "rescuing" people these Illegals might stop trying ?


----------



## Julia (4 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Im thinking if we stop patrolling these Waters and "rescuing" people these Illegals might stop trying ?



That's a novel suggestion, especially coming from The Left.
Good idea. 
It would take about a minute, however, for the moral outrage to reach an all time high.

As Sails has said, a solution is available.  The government, though, prefers to let them flood in, people smugglers included, rather than accept Tony Abbott's offer of a bipartisan solution.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (4 June 2012)

The most startling thing, despicable people smugglers aside (which we all seem to know they are abhorrent), was the images of people leading normal, (dare I say it) middle-class, suburban lives in the Middle East celebrating their impending 'migration' to Australia, almost as if it were an orthodox migration channel (not to mention their Australian relatives paying for it with the same mentality).

When serious criminal activity such as this is 'normalised' in the psyche of the places where the demand is unlimited, then we're in BIG trouble.

This has always been the problem with the Leftists in this argument.  It's very easy to look in the mirror and moralise about how bad we are, but the real world is eating this up.  Unlimited demand for a migration outcome, being treated by the smugglers as unlimited supply (even though they're charging much larger rates than they were a few years ago on the basis that this is a 'closing down' sale).

So here we are.  The question is: how far can/does the pendulum have to swing the other way to stop this flow of boats?  That's what has to happen, but we have to draw the line at exposing people to savage treatment in Malaysia.  GO FIGURE!


----------



## numbercruncher (4 June 2012)

Julia said:


> That's a novel suggestion, especially coming from The Left.
> Good idea.




I knew that would appeal to the hearts of ze Right.


----------



## sails (5 June 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> The most startling thing, despicable people smugglers aside (which we all seem to know they are abhorrent), was the images of people leading normal, (dare I say it) middle-class, suburban lives in the Middle East celebrating their impending 'migration' to Australia, almost as if it were an orthodox migration channel (not to mention their Australian relatives paying for it with the same mentality).
> 
> When serious criminal activity such as this is 'normalised' in the psyche of the places where the demand is unlimited, then we're in BIG trouble.
> 
> ...




Something that stood out to me in the Four Corners investigation last night was the girl who tragically lost her newly wed husband - he got on a boat and has never been seen since.  What what surprised me was the elegant furniture in her home, she was well dressed and groomed and it seemed that money was no object.  And yet they come here at the expense of taxpayers?  Something seems very wrong and it seems the genuine refugee just might be finding things pretty tough trying to compete with so many that may not be genuine at all.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

I love how, Bowen is straight faced on t.v telling us they are going to bring down the wrath of the government on them.
The question is why? they let them in, they did the check and found nothing. A t.v station obviously didn't have too much trouble finding out the situation.
So what the hell is happening with the Federal Police and Immigration Dept, with the information at their disposal.
Maybe we should run a check in at the Christmas Island Macas drive through. LOL
Bob is certainly getting out on a high.


----------



## numbercruncher (5 June 2012)

There is nothing that mandates that a "refugee" must be poor or have bad taste in furniture or dress poorly and this is regardless of their language skills or skin colour.


After the Earthquakes in Christchurch we had 10s of Thousands of Environmental refugees flee Christchurch

After Bush and Johnny invaded Iraq and Afghanistan 10s of thousands were made refugees many of them wealthier than many of us will ever be.

et cetera

If anyone is unsure of the definition of Refugee you could always google it.


----------



## boofhead (5 June 2012)

The story will serve as political ammunition to senior figures in the related government departments and agencies for more funding for more bureaucrats. It does make one wonder how things are actually processed and researched. It will be interesting to find out how the humanitarian people will answer any questions about handling such people and how they can be properly screened.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> There is nothing that mandates that a "refugee" must be poor or have bad taste in furniture or dress poorly and this is regardless of their language skills or skin colour.
> 
> 
> After the Earthquakes in Christchurch we had 10s of Thousands of Environmental refugees flee Christchurch
> ...




Agree with you 100%, numbercruncher, the only issue is why come in as an illegal, also wasn't it reported they were Iraq refugees when they were in fact from another country.
Apart from that, they can dress how they like.


----------



## Julia (5 June 2012)

boofhead said:


> The story will serve as political ammunition to senior figures in the related government departments and agencies for more funding for more bureaucrats. It does make one wonder how things are actually processed and researched. It will be interesting to find out how the humanitarian people will answer any questions about handling such people and how they can be properly screened.



The ABC have thoroughly shown up the relevant government departments with their thousands of employees.
That just one ABC program with no doubt a limited budget and certainly limited personnel can uncover so much in five weeks of investigation puts the government to total shame.

No wonder not one of the Immigration Minister, the Attorney General, or one other invited Minister whom I now can't remember would front on "7.30" this evening.
What a pack of idjits.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2012)

I see Bowen is going to probe! LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...e-people-smuggling-claims-20120605-1zswz.html

Maybe he should just employ the A.B.C to carry out immigration control. LOL
He could pay them to do on the weekends, it would have to be better than what they have now. 

Oh no sorry, it's Tony's fault, because he used a trolley the guy collected.LOL
These goons are a real hoot. Like I said Bobs going out while the goings good.LOl,LOL


----------



## dutchie (6 June 2012)

And some people want the person who initiated this mess to replace the worst Australian PM ? 

You've got to be joking! 

Hang your head in shame K Rudd.


----------



## dutchie (6 June 2012)

Why on earth do we bother screening these illegal invaders.

If they don't get through the first screening, they appeal and get through the second screening - no worries mate!

The whole system is a joke and the people smugglers and their clients know it.


----------



## Calliope (6 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> Why on earth do we bother screening these illegal invaders.
> 
> If they don't get through the first screening, they appeal and get through the second screening - no worries mate!
> 
> The whole system is a joke and the people smugglers and their clients know it.




Exactly.


----------



## Calliope (10 June 2012)

Between 80% and 90% of boat people who arrive here *without passports or documents* are eventually accepted as refugees. This is high by world standards and gives credibility to the people smugglers' promises.

This figure is much higher than the acceptance figures for those who arrive by air *with documents*!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...uck-as-border-control-fails/story-e6frgd0x-12


----------



## numbercruncher (10 June 2012)

Our refugee issues are nothing compared to the rest of the world - ofcourse more will arrive here during labors reign as more have been created around the world during this time - Most Iraqi refugees for example were caused by Bush and Howards morally bankrupt and deadly war for oil but arrive here during labor's Governing term but obviously liberals caused it.



> According to UNHCR’s latest report, ‘Asylum Levels and Trends in Industrialized Countries 2011’,* the number of people seeking asylum in industrialised countries rose by 20% in 2011. In Europe *327,200* asylum claims were made last year; many refugees fleeing conflicts from the Arab world and West Africa.
> 
> UN High Commissioner for Refugees AntÃ²nio Guterres called on EU member states to put such numbers in perspective “Europe is not a continent flooded with refugees,” highlighting the fact that over 80% of refugees are located in developing countries. “The number of asylum claims received across all industrialized countries is still smaller than the population of Dadaab, a single refugee camp in north-east Kenya,” Guterres added with regard to a camp for Somali refugees.




http://baltic-review.com/2012/06/refugees-so-close-but-yet-so-far/

We have it easy peezy with only 20k a year - Europe appears to be under a full scale invasion of displaced people.

And I still see people arguing that the world isnt over populated - crikey.


----------



## Julia (10 June 2012)

Another two boats late yesterday.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Another two boats late yesterday.




I feel sorry for all the poor bastards who have done the right thing, and applied for migration through the proper channels.

They are in a longer queue now, and just as deserving, if not more, given Capt. Emad's taxpayer funded holiday in Australia.

gg


----------



## numbercruncher (10 June 2012)

We get it so easy compared to the rest of the World with the refugee problem.

I bet our sucessive Governments misadventures help make more refugees than we actually accept.




> In 2000, 300 000 refugees sought asylum in Europe. Just over 4000 reached Australia by boat or plane.
> 
> The heaviest burden of assisting refugees is borne by poor nations.
> 
> ...




http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=1946

I would imagine all of you will now be petitioning to substantially raise our intake to help share the burdon of these other nations ?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> We get it so easy compared to the rest of the World with the refugee problem.
> 
> I bet our sucessive Governments misadventures help make more refugees than we actually accept.
> 
> ...




numbercrucher,

Many posts on this thread fail to take in to account the demographics and fears of the hosting nation ( Australia ) in this debate.

We are a small Anglo-Celtic nation in the Southern Hemisphere and the people of Australia have justifiable fears that they may be swamped by un-regulated migration from foreign countries and cultures such as Ceylon, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and other third world countries with an ethical and religious history quite different from Australia, and in my opinion quite inferior.

gg


----------



## Julia (10 June 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I feel sorry for all the poor bastards who have done the right thing, and applied for migration through the proper channels.
> 
> They are in a longer queue now, and just as deserving, if not more, given Capt. Emad's taxpayer funded holiday in Australia.
> 
> gg



That's exactly the point which I keep trying to make but which is so persistently ignored by The Left.  

The level of boat arrivals is such that the Immigration Dept is taken up with managing these whilst those who have applied through the proper channels, and moreover, who lack the financial resources to pay people smugglers, continue to sit in squalid refugee camps in Malaysia and other similarly miserable environments.  Many of these people are already confirmed as refugees, unlike those arriving by boat who have purposely destroyed all their documentation.  

Yet they receive priority.


----------



## Glen48 (10 June 2012)

I can tell you from experience dealing with Oz immigration is the pits, their code system to access your application does not work meaning you have to fill in the app. a few times about 20 pages worth, no one replies to any e mails or tells you whats going on as the person involved once put on the list is given all the high security of the PM.

They want to know parents parents birthday's which is ok if  both of your parents are still alive, you need to do several trips in to the city  and take a number and cross your fingers you will be served before closing time if you want to know how NOT to run a business video this lot at work.

While you are waiting for your app. to be sorted you are paying  for the other half over seas while boat people all they have to do is step ashore and all is found.

Migration here encourages boat people to risk it and RE propaganda pushers  run Add's on over seas Tv's telling how to get there and invest in real estate and live the life of an Attorney.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 June 2012)

Glen48 said:


> I can tell you from experience dealing with Oz immigration is the pits, their code system to access your application does not work meaning you have to fill in the app. a few times about 20 pages worth, no one replies to any e mails or tells you whats going on as the person involved once put on the list is given all the high security of the PM.
> 
> They want to know parents parents birthday's which is ok if  both of your parents are still alive, you need to do several trips in to the city  and take a number and cross your fingers you will be served before closing time if you want to know how NOT to run a business video this lot at work.
> 
> ...




Thanks Glen,

An important post.

gg


----------



## Glen48 (10 June 2012)

GG let me hasten to add I was not referring to you in particular when I mention attorney as I see another thread the good work you are doing to help the down and out.
By the way there is a Bugatti Veyron for sale on the G Cost if your deal comes off.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 June 2012)

Glen48 said:


> GG let me hasten to add I was not referring to you in particular when I mention attorney as I see another thread the good work you are doing to help the down and out.
> By the way there is a Bugatti Veyron for sale on the G Cost if your deal comes off.




I bought it for your birthday mate.

gg


----------



## Glen48 (10 June 2012)

Thanks you just wondering where you passed the bar.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 June 2012)

Glen48 said:


> Thanks you just wondering where you passed the bar.




lol
+1

gg


----------



## Glen48 (10 June 2012)

Expecting you to say through the bat wing doors on your left..


----------



## numbercruncher (10 June 2012)

This whole issue is manipulated for political gain , we really do have bigger issues.




> Myth 1 : Australia is being inundated by people in boats.
> 
> Fact: This is false. Approximately 2000 boat people have sought asylum in Australia in 2009. This number is tiny when compared to other countries. Even given an increase in 2009, the annual average number of boat arrivals to Australia is tiny in comparison to the 50,000 people that over-stay their visas each year, or when taking into account that on average 95% of asylum seekers actually arrive in Australia by plane.
> 
> ...






> Myth 5: More boats are coming because of a ‘softening’ of asylum seeker policy in Australia.
> 
> Fact: Asylum seeker numbers have increased in 2009 all over the world – not just in Australia. Australia has received far less applications than other countries. The reason for large increases internationally is not because countries have ”gone soft”, but because the violence in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan and Sri Lanka has worsened. An increase in the number and intensity of worldwide ”push factors” has forced many to flee.




Clearly Wars started by the right have contributed massively over the years. Also the international community ignoring some more deserving countries problems have added considerably to numbers.

More myths debunked here 

http://www.boat-people.org/?page_id=148


----------



## Julia (10 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> This whole issue is manipulated for political gain , we really do have bigger issues.



You just quote more of the same whilst completely ignoring my point about the displacement of genuine proven refugees who have applied through proper formal channels and who are now forced backwards because of the processing of those arriving without documentation which they purposely destroy.

Your comment on this would be appreciated.


----------



## numbercruncher (10 June 2012)

Julia said:


> You just quote more of the same whilst completely ignoring my point about the displacement of genuine proven refugees who have applied through proper formal channels and who are now forced backwards because of the processing of those arriving without documentation which they purposely destroy.
> 
> Your comment on this would be appreciated.




What displaced "proven" refugees ?- people" applying "from overseas as " refugees " seems to fly in the face of the meaning of the word.

Have you got some facts or links about " displaced proven refugees " caused by boatpeoe refugees ? How about the planepeople refugees heaps more of them.



> Fact: Anyone who comes to Australia seeking protection – regardless of whether they come on a boat or on a plane – has a right under international and Australian law to apply for that protection. As an asylum seeker, they have legal status.




The vast majority of assylum seekers arrive by plane like 90pc- this whole boat thing is politics - Libs dont need this issue to win election I would think ?


----------



## noco (10 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> What displaced "proven" refugees ?- people" applying "from overseas as " refugees " seems to fly in the face of the meaning of the word.
> 
> Have you got some facts or links about " displaced proven refugees " caused by boatpeoe refugees ? How about the planepeople refugees heaps more of them.
> 
> ...




Those people who arrive by plane are processed with their passports and visas, the boat people destroy their documentation before landing on our shores.

The plane people who over stay their visas are most likely staying with relatives and do not receive the handouts given to the boat people.

The people arriving by plane normally have to give details where they are staying and in most cases can be tracked.

I should imagine the palne people would therefore not be a burden on the tax payer as are the illegal boat people.


----------



## numbercruncher (10 June 2012)

I dont really buy that ....

Whats to stop planepeople destroying all documents after arrival as say a holiday maker.

Anyway links and statistics welcome ive added plenty.

Actually being the only one who links facts while other people guess to forward their political agenda gets old ....



> Myth 9: Most asylum seekers come by boat.
> 
> Fact: Most asylum seekers come to Australia by plane. In 2008, more than 95 per cent of asylum seekers arrived by plane.


----------



## sptrawler (10 June 2012)

What you really need to read up on. is the problem that countries with a small population are having, when their refugee population start to become a major voting block.
I am only going off memory but I think it is becoming an issue in Belgium and Luxemberg.


----------



## numbercruncher (10 June 2012)

Yes some countries are plain stupid to let in the numbers they do , eventually they have to stop one way or another.


----------



## sptrawler (11 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Yes some countries are plain stupid to let in the numbers they do , eventually they have to stop one way or another.




So when the people smugglers decide to bring them in on supertankers, then we start to worry?
Lets not forget before the goon show got into power we had 2 people in detention centres.
But Bob and big red have sorted that and sorted the planets air problems out and put insulation in all the houses and given the unemployed ultra speed broadband to apply for jobs and put a tax on electricity because? we don't want to use our coal we want everyone else to burn it . 
Must take breath LOL Ranting


----------



## numbercruncher (11 June 2012)

Thread is just a political rant fest once again, xenophobic hysteria always sways votes one way or another. Im not even sure who im voting for come the time ....

You guys have fun with the boat people just dont forget the plane people ... 95/5 remember ...

So if you all want the Asylum seeker thing to stop you need to petition for your MP to get the Refugee Convention that we ratified in 1954 overturned.

Out of this thread have fun.


----------



## startrader (11 June 2012)

Another two boats arrive - 12 boats so far this month.  I'm sure all Australians must love our open border policy and the way we encourage these people to set sail for Australia.  It's well worth it though as look what's waiting for them at the other end of the trip.  

What an absolute pathetic excuse for a government this lot is.  It's beyond unbelievable - what a joke!


----------



## sails (11 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Thread is just a political rant fest once again, xenophobic hysteria always sways votes one way or another. ....




You think it is just a political rant?  How insulting do you have to be?  Some of us actually care about this country and don't like the fact that we are being invaded by people who have little in the way of security checks.

You are clearly not in sync with the majority of voters in this country.

This is not political, it is about being concerned at the lack of border control.  Just because Gillard and Rudd decided to abolish the Pacific Solution that actually worked and made it political all by themselves is something you should take up with them and not with the rest of us who would have preferred they gave bi-partisan support for something that clearly worked so well.

But NO.  They decided they knew better - and what a disaster that has been.  

This is one who made it political:


----------



## sails (11 June 2012)

startrader said:


> Another two boats arrive - 12 boats so far this month.  I'm sure all Australians must love our open border policy and the way we encourage these people to set sail for Australia.  It's well worth it though as look what's waiting for them at the other end of the trip.
> 
> What an absolute pathetic excuse for a government this lot is.  It's beyond unbelievable - what a joke!





And Gillard has made it political.  She promised to stop the boats just before the last election.  Another broken commitment. And she sits back and does nothing about these boats pouring in.

Abbott has offered bi-partisan support for humane offshore processing.  We are being taken to the cleaners while Gillard seems uninterested.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (11 June 2012)

sails said:


> And Gillard has made it political.  She promised to stop the boats just before the last election.  Another broken commitment. And she sits back and does nothing about these boats pouring in.
> 
> Abbott has offered bi-partisan support for humane offshore processing.  We are being taken to the cleaners while Gillard seems uninterested.




+1 Yep - spot on.

Gillard and Labor would rather re-write history.  I watched your little 20 second shot on Gillard in Parliament whilst in oppostion, Sails.

Having said something like that, how far do you have to sell your soul to the Devil to have come up with the Malaysia Solution?

Let's not insult our collective intelligence anymore by calling this Malaysia Solution "compassionate".  It is not!  Take one step into Kuala Lumpur and you will know that.

What a disgrace.


----------



## Julia (11 June 2012)

sails said:


> You think it is just a political rant?  How insulting do you have to be?  Some of us actually care about this country and don't like the fact that we are being invaded by people who have little in the way of security checks.
> 
> You are clearly not in sync with the majority of voters in this country.
> 
> ...



+1.



StumpyPhantom said:


> +1 Yep - spot on.





> Having said something like that, how far do you have to sell your soul to the Devil to have come up with the Malaysia Solution?



If she had any soul she sold it long ago when she ousted Rudd.  She has, since then, continued to demonstrate that she is entirely about her personal political survival.  No concern for anything or anyone else.



> What a disgrace.



Indeed.


----------



## JTLP (12 June 2012)

Just love the xenophobic talk on this thread!

How is it xenophobic when we want our borders protected for security purposes but all's fair to block LEGAL 457 VISA WORKERS from entering our country to WORK?


----------



## Calliope (12 June 2012)

JTLP said:


> Just love the xenophobic talk on this thread!
> 
> How is it xenophobic when we want our borders protected for security purposes but all's fair to block LEGAL 457 VISA WORKERS from entering our country to WORK?




I agree JTLP. I think you have pinpointed the xenophobic poster. But I have a feeling that he is trying to pull his head in after the loss of his mentor.


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

Malcolm Fraser has written a line by line demolition of Tony Abbotts asylum plan. Just clear facts.  It's worth reading the entire article to see how he justifies his criticism. Be interesting to see the broad reaction to his very factual paper.

(I think Malcolm would probably  pick apart the Labour party policy as well but perhaps not as strongly)


> *The Coalition's latest asylum seeker plan is inhumane and lacks integrity.*
> 
> TONY Abbott and Scott Morrison recently stood in front of Australia and proudly presented the Coalition's plan to ''ensure integrity and restore confidence in refugee assessment''. There is not much to be proud about in this policy. The announcement was based on misinformed and misleading information that plays straight into the unfounded public fear of asylum seekers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Calliope (18 June 2012)

Malcolm Fraser - The Age - basilio - Hmmm? No bias there? :shake:


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Malcolm Fraser - The Age - basilio - Hmmm? No bias there? :shake:




Why not read the article and  dispute the facts Calliope ?


----------



## noco (18 June 2012)

If the Labor Party want their Malaysian legislation passed, why are they not applying some pressure on their socailist left wing Greens coaltition partner instead of blaming Abbott.

The Labor Party won't even place their legislation before parliament.

The Greens seem to be able to persuade the Labor to do what they want like the Carbon tax but the Labor Party go all soft when they seek the Greens support on the Malayasisn deal.

Who is running this country, the Greens or Labor?


----------



## noco (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> Why not read the article and  dispute the facts Calliope ?





I did read that artilcle by Malcolm Fraser and can only disagree with his statement on the grounds that these illegal boat people firstly do have to have a passport to gain entry into Indonesia so why distroy them before landing on Australia soil? There appears to be some anomosity going between Fraser and Abbott, and Fraser, not for the first time has tried to discredt Abbott. From my observation Fraser tends to lean towards Turnbull. Furthermore, Fraser has, for some time now, been a good buddy of Whitlam. So I would not place too much credence on Fraser's statements!!!!!!!!!!

The illegal boat people seem to have plenty of money to fly to Indonesia and then pay $10,000 plus to the people smugglers. So why then do they not fly into Australia with the proper documents on a tourist visa and over stay as others do? The difference of course is those who fly in and overstay are not entitled to social security hand outs like the illegal boat people.

The Pacific solution under Howard was proved to be successful, however this Current Government under Gillard just refuse to swallow their pride by admitting Howard was correct. I don't see it as reclyling an old policy. What I do see is the burden placed on the Australian tax payer to provde welfare, and according to reports,  some 85% of illegal boat will be on it for the rest of their lives.  

I also believe that 90% of these illegal boat people are Muslim and there is a world wide plot to infiltrate the Western World to ultimately have a Muslim dominated world. One only has to observe what is now happening in Europe particularly in Holland, Denmark and France. It is starting to happen in Australia with Muslims seeking Sharia law and building their own schools to teach kids the Karan five times a day.

So I say STOP THE BOATS and reopen the successful Pacific solution.


----------



## Calliope (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> Why not read the article and  dispute the *facts *Calliope ?




Frazer - Age- basilio - *Facts*  Same old drivel.

And Noco, Frazer is in cahoots with Labor and the Greens. He hates the Coalition. Why else would basilio love his propaganda?


----------



## Julia (18 June 2012)

noco said:


> The illegal boat people seem to have plenty of money to fly to Indonesia and then pay $10,000 plus to the people smugglers. So why then do they not fly into Australia with the proper documents on a tourist visa and over stay as others do? The difference of course is those who fly in and overstay are not entitled to social security hand outs like the illegal boat people.



This seems an entirely valid question to me.   Would appreciate your comment here, basilio.

Mr Fraser is well known for his antipathy toward the party he once led.
He has, for some years, been an excellent support to Labor and The Greens.


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

Lets see what Malcolm Fraser was saying about the current situation.



> Another major part of the policy is to draw an unfavourable inference about an applicant's identity if they arrive without documents. The reference to ''90 per cent of arrivals having no documents whatsoever'' is a blatant attempt to mislead the public. A footnote refers to a budget estimates hearing relating to asylum seekers arriving without a passport. But arriving without a passport is not the same as arriving with no documents ''whatsoever''. While people may arrive without a passport, it does not mean they do not have other identity documents.
> 
> There are numerous reasons people arrive without a passport: they may not have one, they have had to hand it over to people smugglers, or they have panicked and destroyed it because it is their identity that has caused persecution, torture and imprisonment in the past. Further to this, to prove an asylum seeker is a refugee, identity documents must be provided - therefore there is no way to be found to be a refugee without any documents. This is not indicative of a system ''wide open to abuse'' or one in which assessors are forced to make a ''best guess''.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/abbotts-evil-policy-work-20120617-20hzs.html#ixzz1y6fBbrqz

If a person has a ''well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion''  they arn't going to be able to waltz up to local authorities and get travel documents etc to get of the country.  They are far more likely to get a bullet in the head. 

The world adopted a universal policy on asylum seekers in the 1950's because it recognized the reality of  brutal regimes and the need to offer support and protection of people who tried escape these situations. Think German Jews and escapees from China and USSR. 

As has been repeatedly pointed out 90% of the boat arrivals have had their refugee status accepted when investigated.


----------



## noco (18 June 2012)

As Andrew Bolt says, Fraser skips over the most likely.

Fraser should go count his sheep and stay out of politics.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...l/comments/fraser_skips_over_the_most_likely/


----------



## Calliope (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> As has been repeatedly pointed out 90% of the boat arrivals have had their refugee status accepted when investigated.




Yes they do. And it has been repeatedly asked, but not answered;

Why do people who arrive *illegally *without papers get preference over those who arrive* legally *with papers?  Don't give me your bullsh*t that sneaking in the back door without a passport or visa is* legal* entry.

Oh, I see, if you arrive by boat (via other countries) you must be a refugee.


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Yes they do. And it has been repeatedly asked, but not answered;
> 
> Why do people who arrive *illegally *without papers get preference over those who arrive* legally *with papers?  Don't give me your bullsh*t that sneaking in the back door without a passport or visa is* legal* entry.
> 
> Oh, I see, if you arrive by boat (via other countries) you must be a refugee.




You have it dead right calliope.  When you are being persecuted and can't emigrate because you will get killed in the process you escape whatever way you can. Thats  what a refugee is.

Would you prefer it if we simply  relabelled all boat people as Muslim terrorists and sent them to sleep with the fishes as summary justice ?


----------



## Calliope (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> You have it dead right calliope.  When you are being persecuted and can't emigrate because you will get killed in the process you escape whatever way you can. Thats  what a refugee is.




You seem very obtuse today Bas. Allow me to to put you on the right track:

 . No one knows whether they were persecuted or not.

 . Most freely few out of their own countries with documentation to an intermediate country where they were safe. They obviously weren't killed in the process.

 . They destroyed their papers.  



> Would you prefer it if we simply  relabelled all boat people as Muslim terrorists and sent them to sleep with the fishes as summary justice ?




You certainly are confused and are getting erratic. 

 . No. I would deny them access to the Australian court system until they produced their papers. Then they might start to bring them with them.

 . Most the illegals reaching the Cocos are Tamils (not Muslims) and are departing from India where they also had safe haven.


----------



## Julia (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> If a person has a ''well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion''  they arn't going to be able to waltz up to local authorities and get travel documents etc to get of the country.



So how did they get to fly from Iraq or wherever all the way through to Indonesia, Malaysia etc?
They had documentation to do that.


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

Julia said:


> So how did they get to fly from Iraq or wherever all the way through to Indonesia, Malaysia etc?
> They had documentation to do that.




Good question.... I think it presumes they did fly from their home country to Indonesia. Perhaps some did and some didn't.  

I simply don't know enough about the individual stories of refugees to make a sensible comment. I'd  leave that to immigration officials to work out. If it's is the case that 90% of boat refugees have a genuine case to show they are refugees after close investigation I'd accept that judgment. 

And why would we not ?


----------



## Calliope (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> I simply don't know enough about the individual stories of refugees to make a sensible comment.




You have never let that stop you before.


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

Perhaps it's worth reading some other perspectives on this issue. Why are we so willing to demonise people who are simply desperate to escape intolerable situations? Would we do this to a neighbour down the road or from the next town ?

http://www.rethinkrefugees.com.au/
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/asylum/boats.php
http://www.boat-people.org/?page_id=148


----------



## noco (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> You have it dead right calliope.  When you are being persecuted and can't emigrate because you will get killed in the process you escape whatever way you can. Thats  what a refugee is.
> 
> Would you prefer it if we simply  relabelled all boat people as Muslim terrorists and sent them to sleep with the fishes as summary justice ?




If one in a thousand was a terrorist that is one too many.

The AFP have dicovered terrorist cells in Australia, so basilio, how did they enter Australiain in the first place?

Look, I won't be around to see it happen, but I can assure you the muslims kids who are being taught the Koran will  be brainwashed into believing you and I are infidels, and inifdels and Christians should be eliminated. When push comes to shove those kids, when turning into adutlhood, will be reminded what they have been taught. Yes, I know basilio, you will say the ones now in Australia are the moderate ones. At present they are sleeping dogs. 

Be afraid my friend, be very afraid!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## drsmith (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> Perhaps it's worth reading some other perspectives on this issue. Why are we so willing to demonise people who are simply desperate to escape intolerable situations? Would we do this to a neighbour down the road or from the next town ?
> 
> http://www.rethinkrefugees.com.au/
> http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/asylum/boats.php
> http://www.boat-people.org/?page_id=148



A local context to poor border control is leaving the house unlocked for the local burglar.


----------



## Julia (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> Good question.... I think it presumes they did fly from their home country to Indonesia. Perhaps some did and some didn't.



So how else do you suggest they got to Indonesia?  Hitch hiked?   Of course they went by air and to do this, as you absolutely well know, they would have had to have passports etc.

And let's remember that people can actually be assessed as refugees yet still represent a security risk, according to ASIO.   Not every person landing in a boat here is necessarily the persecuted innocent little snowflake such as you seem to idealistically believe.



> I simply don't know enough about the individual stories of refugees to make a sensible comment.



Yet you persistently champion their cause on the apparent assumption that their arrival here should always be treated with total sympathy and support.


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

In point of fact I have seen and spoken to a number of refugees.  Their stories were incredibly painful (and made me feel very fortunate to be in Australia.)

When I made the comment about being unable to relate to individual stories I thought I was stating the obvious - that immigration officials are far better qualified to suss out the background and history of boat people than anyone simply reading the newspaper.

It's for that reason I keep going back to the  primary undisputed facts.  That is that after close inquiry the immigration department decided that 90% of asylum seekers were genuine and should be granted  protection.  

Obviously we need to check people out.  But I suggest the  collective demonising of  boat people is just a political beat up to give us permission  to treat fellow human beings badly. In an extreme case we only need one possible suspicion to allow a collective punishment. (See Nocos comments above)

We are better than that.


----------



## sptrawler (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> Good question.... I think it presumes they did fly from their home country to Indonesia. Perhaps some did and some didn't.
> 
> I simply don't know enough about the individual stories of refugees to make a sensible comment. I'd  leave that to immigration officials to work out. If it's is the case that 90% of boat refugees have a genuine case to show they are refugees after close investigation I'd accept that judgment.




Yes that just about sums up the argument, blind faith in the immigration officials, that are playing catch up with 4 corners. Unbelievable, just unbelievable.
Bring on the election.


----------



## sptrawler (18 June 2012)

basilio said:


> In point of fact I have seen and spoken to a number of refugees.  Their stories were incredibly painful (and made me feel very fortunate to be in Australia.)
> 
> When I made the comment about being unable to relate to individual stories I thought I was stating the obvious - that immigration officials are far better qualified to suss out the background and history of boat people than anyone simply reading the newspaper.
> 
> ...




Well maybe you could better support the cause, by moving to Indonesia and telling the boat people to hang onto their documentation. 
No that would be too easy, much better to throw the documentation overboard and say you are being demonised. Give me a break, what a load of BS. 
Basilio your full of it, if they threw away their documentation before arriving in Indonesia, you would never see them again. They throw it away coming to Aust to gain advantage and they should be flown back to point of origin, if they don't have paperwork.
You try going overseas without paperwork, what a load of crap.


----------



## basilio (18 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Yes that just about sums up the argument, blind faith in the immigration officials, that are playing catch up with 4 corners. Unbelievable, just unbelievable.
> Bring on the election.




And  exactly what are your reasons for calling the immigration officials incompetent or liars? A gut feeling perhaps? Maybe Andrew Bolt told you so ? Or is it just convenient to dismiss the work of a whole department to justify pushing a few hundred people back into the water ?  Perhaps you'd like to legislate the results of immigration officers for them so they can fit into your preordained set of results.

What a load of absolute ****e


----------



## basilio (19 June 2012)

How about taking a few minutes to check out some of the people we have rescued and what they were escaping from. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3gisYBoEwQ&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCJZ4pIbg8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bspE2rsAHOA&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sju7dKVthf4&feature=relmfu


----------



## sptrawler (19 June 2012)

basilio said:


> And  exactly what are your reasons for calling the immigration officials incompetent or liars? A gut feeling perhaps? Maybe Andrew Bolt told you so ? Or is it just convenient to dismiss the work of a whole department to justify pushing a few hundred people back into the water ?  Perhaps you'd like to legislate the results of immigration officers for them so they can fit into your preordained set of results.
> 
> What a load of absolute ****e




No my assumptions are made on the fact the immigration dept is probably underwater with the amount of illegals they are processing. 
They were never expected to process the amount of people that are coming through, how the hell do you man up for an escalation of 10 people to 10,000 people in 5 years. Get real 
Love your compassion, I presume you have put your name forward for the government initiative to house them.


----------



## sptrawler (19 June 2012)

basilio said:


> How about taking a few minutes to check out some of the people we have rescued and what they were escaping from.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3gisYBoEwQ&feature=relmfu
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCJZ4pIbg8&feature=relmfu
> ...




I don't give a rats where they were escaping from, the last thing I would throw away would be my proof of identity, if I was running away from anyware.
I want to know who the hell I am letting in, maybe you don't care and that's your perogative, but most people want to know.
I am sure if you were running away from Australia, you wouldn't throw away your passport, unless you were a criminal.


----------



## Julia (19 June 2012)

basilio said:


> And  exactly what are your reasons for calling the immigration officials incompetent or liars? A gut feeling perhaps? Maybe Andrew Bolt told you so ? Or is it just convenient to dismiss the work of a whole department to justify pushing a few hundred people back into the water ?  Perhaps you'd like to legislate the results of immigration officers for them so they can fit into your preordained set of results.
> 
> What a load of absolute ****e



The Department is overrun with so many people.  They cannot be expected to be as diligent in their assessment as they would without this influx.

I note you choose to express outrage over being challenged on this, despite the embarrassing evidence of an actual people smuggler being assessed as a refugee, given government housing, along with the same for other members of his family, who then turns his clever  hand to running a people smuggling operation from Australia.
The fiasco depicted on Four Corners informed the Department about this.   Who knows how many more such similar scams are running successfully?

This is fine with you?

You continue to fail to address the fact that these people destroy their documentation after reaching Indonesia.
Why not explain this if they are all such good genuine people, basilio?

And then how about the people who have made their way to the hundreds of UNHCR refugee camps, with their documentation, actually applied to come here via official channels, and who are being displaced in such an attempt by these document-destroying people who may or may not have a reason to come here other than the attraction of free medical and dental services, free housing, etc etc.

And while you're addressing this, how about also telling us how you feel about Australians who - through no fault of their own and many of whom  have paid taxes in this country - are homeless, and otherwise disadvantaged?
We don't seem to be going out of our way to provide them with public housing.

I have no idea why you seem unable to see the injustice in this.
Let's have some actual responses from you to the above, basilio.


----------



## startrader (21 June 2012)

I thought you might like this link to a new Department of Immigratiion site for illegal boat people, otherwise known as "Irregular maritime arrivals".  Maybe you can pass it on to any boat people you know as it sets out everything they need to know about getting started here, their rights, what appeals they can have, how they can access our legal system and letting them know that they will be released into the community with work rights. 

http://www.immi.gov.au/ima/


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2012)

startrader said:


> I thought you might like this link to a new Department of Immigratiion site for illegal boat people, otherwise known as "Irregular maritime arrivals".  Maybe you can pass it on to any boat people you know as it sets out everything they need to know about getting started here, their rights, what appeals they can have, how they can access our legal system and letting them know that they will be released into the community with work rights.
> 
> http://www.immi.gov.au/ima/




I reckon the people smugglers would be handing this out to their customers in Brochure form.


----------



## dutchie (21 June 2012)

Another boat, another failed government.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (21 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> No my assumptions are made on the fact the immigration dept is probably underwater with the amount of illegals they are processing.
> They were never expected to process the amount of people that are coming through, how the hell do you man up for an escalation of 10 people to 10,000 people in 5 years. Get real
> Love your compassion, I presume you have put your name forward for the government initiative to house them.




Very close to the truth, sptrawler, very close indeed!!



basilio said:


> And  exactly what are your reasons for calling the immigration officials incompetent or liars? A gut feeling perhaps? Maybe Andrew Bolt told you so ? Or is it just convenient to dismiss the work of a whole department to justify pushing a few hundred people back into the water ?  Perhaps you'd like to legislate the results of immigration officers for them so they can fit into your preordained set of results.
> 
> What a load of absolute ****e




This is just too easy, too hard and fast.  Reality is quite different, and a deal more complex.

I have to be cryptic here and refer only to publicly available information.  Compare the refusal rates from the time before the High Court decided asylum seekers could seek judicial review of their refusal decisions to the approval rates after they could be challenged in Court. 

Compare the refusal rates for the same country of origin asylum seekers who came in via the airport (and so have their documentation) to those coming by boat.  Again a big difference.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> Another boat, another failed government.



It might be a lot worse than that.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-21/asylum-seeker-disaster-north-of-christmas-island/4084894


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> It might be a lot worse than that.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-21/asylum-seeker-disaster-north-of-christmas-island/4084894




All down to ALP prevarication.

This never happened under the last Liberal Government.

It is an utter disgrace and all down to Labor.

Poor bastards dying tonight.

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 June 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> All down to ALP prevarication.
> 
> This never happened under the last Liberal Government.
> 
> ...




Latest from the SMH.

75 Dead.



> A boat carrying about 200 asylum seekers has capsized north of Christmas Island, off the Indonesian coast.
> According to Australian Customs, at about 3 pm (AEST) today, a surveillance aircraft spotted a boat in distress about 110 nautical miles north of Christmas Island.
> It is believed up to 200 people could be on board, but Customs said this detail had not been confirmed.
> Advertisement: Story continues below
> ...




gg


----------



## StumpyPhantom (21 June 2012)

Unfortunately "ALP prevarication" is relatively recent history.

Let's go back to the start of this immense tragedy.  Senator Chris Evans, the then Immigration Minister, proclaiming the proudest day in his public life, as part of the newly minted Rudd Government, disbanding the Pacific Solution.

The ALP is so ashamed of this critical, tragic turning point in our history, but here's the speech delivered at the Parramatta Town Hall.  I read it now, and I weep for the lives that have been lost.  Those clinging desperately to the hull of their upturned boat as we speak.  Let's forget for the moment whether an Australian official finds them to be a refugee.  The reality is most of these lives were bearable from whence they came just a few days ago.

http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/67564...immi.gov.au/media/speeches/2008/ce081117.html




> _It is a measure of just how far we have come in the first year of the Rudd Labor Government – of how much has been achieved in terms of returning humanity and fairness to Australia’s refugee policies, and sweeping away past excesses.
> 
> Labor was elected on a platform of change.  In the area of refugee policy the key themes running through the Labor platform are humanity, fairness, integrity and public confidence.
> 
> ...




So let's remind ourselves of the ALP's humanity when we next discuss their appalling Malaysia Solution.


----------



## basilio (21 June 2012)

> This never happened under the last Liberal Government.(sinking of boats of asylum seekers)   GG




Actually it did. SIEV X sank on 23rd Oct 2001 with the loss of 350 lives. 

http://sievx.com/articles/challenging/2003/COS.pdf


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 June 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> Unfortunately "ALP prevarication" is relatively recent history.
> 
> Let's go back to the start of this immense tragedy.  Senator Chris Evans, the then Immigration Minister, proclaiming the proudest day in his public life, as part of the newly minted Rudd Government, disbanding the Pacific Solution.
> 
> ...






The latest count is 90 souls lost.

All down to the ALP lack of bottle .



gg


----------



## dutchie (22 June 2012)

Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard should resign in shame.





As for the Greens....they should start taking responsibility for their policies, but we know that is not going to happen.


----------



## DB008 (22 June 2012)

This one is from Pacific Solution Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution


----------



## tigerboi (22 June 2012)

*Re: Asylum immigrants: 5th columnists within running the show.*

these people are economic refugees not ar5e out of the pants refugees & this criminal government let it all happen  & openly encourage it.what a joke

said it ages ago that 5th columnists are at work with labour-greens sanctioned treachery running the show.

freekin farce people cant get a house & now worries captain emad come in run your smuggling ring,here have a new set of digs on us mate.

as pointed out by others these people FLY IN ON PASSPORTS! 

****zens me really bad the way the people of this country are being treated like fools by gillard & co.

bring on this election as ive never wanted to vote so much in my life

on 4 corners some time ago..."go to australia they give you money"

this government has to be the most incompetent in history.








.


----------



## Calliope (22 June 2012)

Here's a fine piece of "blame Abbott" hypocrisy from the Fairfax press. What they omit to say is that Labor, with the support of their ally Christine Milne, would have no need to ask for Coalition support for their Malaysia plan.




> T'S time to end the blame game - and it's time Tony Abbott made it possible for Julia Gillard to implement the policy she insists will make tragedies like the one that unfolded last night less likely.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...onstructive-20120621-20qyi.html#ixzz1yUB774um


----------



## Calliope (22 June 2012)

Right on cue Green hypocrisy,



> Greens immigration spokeswoman Sarah Hanson-Young said the latest loss of asylum-seekers was a tragedy, but the Greens remained opposed to offshore processing.
> 
> "The Australian Greens reaffirm our commitment to the UN Refugee Convention and to onshore assessment but today we must be focused on expressing our empathy and encouragement to the rescue effort," she said


----------



## StumpyPhantom (22 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Right on cue Green hypocrisy,




I'm sick of Green hypocrisy but rather am waiting for Green cat fur.  Saw Milne and Hanson-Young in the same screen shot the other night - RRREEEEOOOOWWWWW!!!


----------



## IFocus (22 June 2012)

Didn't think it possible but another thread reaches a new low.............


----------



## Calliope (22 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Didn't think it possible but another thread reaches a new low.............




*You* can fix that by your absence.


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2012)

Rob Oakshott must be getting seriously worried that Labor is increasingly only one more disaster from him losing his bread and butter.



> Mr Oakeshott singled out the Opposition as the main impediment to an agreement, saying the prospect of a solution had been hampered by "a desire by some for toxic politics to win the day".




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...mp-rob-oakeshott/story-fn59niix-1226405461935


----------



## noco (22 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> Here's a fine piece of "blame Abbott" hypocrisy from the Fairfax press. What they omit to say is that Labor, with the support of their ally Christine Milne, would have no need to ask for Coalition support for their Malaysia plan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, I have been quoting the same thing for quite awhile. The Labor Party never mention the lack of support from the Greens. I wonder why?????


----------



## DB008 (23 June 2012)

From the Herald Sun.



> JULIA Gillard faces a barrage of demands to change asylum-seeker policy to avoid further deaths after 90 perished in the latest tragedy.
> 
> Hopes fade as search continues at sea
> 
> ...




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/calls-for-julia-gillard-and-tony-abbott-to-solve-boat-crisis/story-e6frf7jo-1226406015150

Dismantling the Pacific Solution has proved costly in terms of physical cost and human lives.
IMO, Gillard is too arrogant and doesn't want to lose face, the 'Pacific Solution' has a very slim to nil chance of getting reinstated.


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2012)

The second comment from that article says it all.



> How about a call for Juliar Gilard and Chriistine Milne to solve the boats crisis?



They are after all partners in government and are therefore at the top of the queue when it comes to responsibility for these outcomes. That's along with those spineless independents Oakshott, Windsor and Wilkie.

The Greens of course will never shift as they, more than anyone else, place idiology ahead of the country they are elected to represent and ahead of human lives.


----------



## DB008 (23 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> The second comment from that article says it all.




So does this one drsmith.


> "Former foreign minister Alexander Downer launched a blistering attack and called for an urgent reinstatement of the Pacific Solution." Downer is right, the Pacific Solution did work whether we liked it or not. I feel it should be returned to. It is just sheer bloody mindedness on the part of Julia Gillard and the Labor party that they will not return to it. They will not admit that John Howard was right for fear of making themselves look more foolish than they already are. Labor using politics to play with peoples lives.
> Trevor C of Perth Posted at 8:20 AM Today


----------



## Julia (23 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> The second comment from that article says it all.
> 
> 
> They are after all partners in government and are therefore at the top of the queue when it comes to responsibility for these outcomes. That's along with those spineless independents Oakshott, Windsor and Wilkie.
> ...



+1 and for Alexander Downer's comments also.
Mr Windsor on ABC Radio yesterday was still managing to blame Tony Abbott.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 June 2012)

Julia said:


> +1 and for Alexander Downer's comments also.
> Mr Windsor on ABC Radio yesterday was still managing to blame Tony Abbott.




This never happened under Mr.Howard's government.

This is all down to the ALP.

gg


----------



## So_Cynical (23 June 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> All down to ALP prevarication.
> 
> This never happened under the last Liberal Government.
> 
> ...








StumpyPhantom said:


> The ALP is so ashamed of this critical, tragic turning point in our history, but here's the speech delivered at the Parramatta Town Hall.  I read it now, and I weep for the lives that have been lost.  Those clinging desperately to the hull of their upturned boat as we speak.  Let's forget for the moment whether an Australian official finds them to be a refugee.  The reality is most of these lives were bearable from whence they came just a few days ago.




You two should be ashamed of your self's...peddling such lies. (SIEV X)

The right side of politics has a peculiar streak of blind righteousness...that i find most unsettling.

---------------



Julia said:


> +1 and for Alexander Downer's comments also.
> Mr Windsor on ABC Radio yesterday was still managing to blame Tony Abbott.




Amazing...Tony Windor seems to have joined the dots the way i did 6 months ago. 

If and thats a very big IF, Abbott really wants to stop the boats he can...but he wont support Labors legislation so he's lying when he says he wants to stop the boats, The ugly truth is 1 vote Tony can stop the boats and the Afghan kiddies drowning but simply refuses to do so, preferring to gain the tiny political advantage that he needs to keep his job.

How disgusting and pathetic.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical,

You are so blinded by ideology that you just don't get it.

Probably never will.

Count the boats.

Count the deaths.

gg


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2012)

Count the fact that Labor would rather see people die than admit to failure.

That's the difference between Labor and the Coalition on this. The Coalition in office at least solved the problem.

This has reached the stage where Julia Gillard should be on her knees to Tony Abbott begging for the Coalition's policies.


----------



## So_Cynical (23 June 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> So_Cynical,
> 
> You are so blinded by ideology that you just don't get it.
> 
> ...




Your blind GG...If Tony really wants to stop the Boats, if that's so all important , then he will pass the legislation.

It really is that simple.

Except for the fact that the hard right of the Coalition will roll him if he does so....politics can be such a grubby game.



drsmith said:


> That's the difference between Labor and the Coalition on this. The Coalition in office at least solved the problem.




Hello....com on lets keep this real,The Coalition in office controlled the Senate and house of reps, and passed the PS legislation with Labor support at the time....so much for quid pro quo hey.


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> Hello....com on lets keep this real,The Coalition in office controlled the Senate and house of reps.



Good heavens SC.

Who's in control of both houses at the moment ?

That's right, it's Labor and its partners in government including the Greens.

However simple you regard it is for the Coalition, it's even simpler for the Greens.


----------



## So_Cynical (23 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Good heavens SC.
> 
> Who's in control of both houses at the moment ?
> 
> ...




Dude seriuosly

You do understand the whole "minority government" thing hey  and you do understand that Labor's legislation is a quasi Pacific solution, allowing the Coalition to do as it pleases when in power so effectively the coalition is opposing a return to their own policy, refusing to endorse Coalition policy.

You do "get" all that?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 June 2012)

ALP are only concerned with Power and keeping it.

None of the present frontbench have ever been engaged in work.

They have been engaged in power and keeping power.

And the poor bloody boat people are collateral damage.

gg


----------



## Calliope (23 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Good heavens SC.
> 
> Who's in control of both houses at the moment ?
> 
> ...




I think that IF and SC for all their rhetoric actually support the Green's position, which is that all these boat deaths will force Gillard to switch to mainland processing.


----------



## So_Cynical (23 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Good heavens SC.
> 
> Who's in control of both houses at the moment ?




Lets just focus on this piece on total nonsense for the moment.

On second thoughts lets not....as its a kin to arguing against the fact that day follows night.


----------



## dutchie (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> If and thats a very big IF, Abbott really wants to stop the boats he can...but he wont support Labors legislation so he's lying when he says he wants to stop the boats, The ugly truth is 1 vote Tony can stop the boats and the Afghan kiddies drowning but simply refuses to do so, preferring to gain the tiny political advantage that he needs to keep his job.




OK So_Cynical I'll spell it out real slowly for you.....

 At......the.......moment.......Labor........forms........the........Government.

Labor....in......coalition........with.....the.......Greens.......and......the.......Independents.........have.......the.....
numbers.......to......pass......*ANY*......Legislation.......they.......want.....to!

Completely.....independent........of.......the........Liberals......who.......are......in......*Opposition*

Definition.... of ......Opposition ----->  Not.... in......government,.....does......not......make....the.....rules,...cannot.....legislate,....does......not....have.....to.....fix......self......inflicted.......government .....problems,....etc...etc



Hope that helps.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> OK So_Cynical I'll spell it out real slowly for you.....
> 
> At......the.......moment.......Labor........forms........the........Government.
> 
> ...




+1

gg


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> Lets just focus on this piece on total nonsense for the moment.
> 
> On second thoughts lets not....as its a kin to arguing against the fact that day follows night.



I know why you don't want to. It's a truth that cannot be denied.

Don't worry SC, day will follow night. It's just very, very long dark night under Labor.



Calliope said:


> I think that IF and SC for all their rhetoric actually support the Green's position, which is that all these boat deaths will force Gillard to switch to mainland processing.



You might be right.

On this, the Greens seem to be above criticism in their eyes.


----------



## noco (23 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> OK So_Cynical I'll spell it out real slowly for you.....
> 
> At......the.......moment.......Labor........forms........the........Government.
> 
> ...




If they don't, we will all have to say....................DUMB...................and....................DUMBER.


----------



## So_Cynical (23 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> OK So_Cynical I'll spell it out real slowly for you.....
> 
> At......the.......moment.......Labor........forms........the........*Government*.
> 
> ...




LOL thanks for that, thanks for pointing out that the Government with the help of 1,2,3,4 independents, or the Liberals, and/or the greens can pass any legislation it wants...very helpful.  just a shame that somehow you don't seem to want to face the reality that on its own the Government can do NOTHING.

(I will use big fonts to help you get the idea)

So just like in 2001 the Government of the day NEEDS the support of another party to get ANY legislation thru, in 2001 the Coalation Govt passed the PACIFIC SOLUTION LEGISLATION with the help of the OPPOSITION LABOR PARTY.

And now (AS HAS BEEN THE CASE FOR CLOSE TO 2 DECADES) the Govt of the day needs the help of the OPPOSITION Liberal Party to get appropriate legislation thru.

Just let me know if you need any further assistance with understanding Aust politics 101.


----------



## dutchie (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> LOL thanks for that, thanks for pointing out that the Government with the help of 1,2,3,4 independents, or the Liberals, and/or the greens can pass any legislation it wants...very helpful.  just a shame that somehow you don't seem to want to face the reality that on its own the Government can do NOTHING.
> 
> (I will use big fonts to help you get the idea)
> 
> ...





Obviously.............................................I.............................................did.....................................................not..........................................speak..............................................slowly..................................................enough.....................................................sigh


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> LOL thanks for that, thanks for pointing out that the Government with the help of 1,2,3,4 independents, or the Liberals, and/or the greens can pass any legislation it wants...very helpful.  just a shame that somehow you don't seem to want to face the reality that on its own the Government can do NOTHING.
> 
> (I will use big fonts to help you get the idea)




That's where your whole argument falls on its ar$e, SC, the government can fix it. 
Just agree to Tony's request, it was easy enough for them to backflip and agree to the greens requests.
They are just digging a bigger and bigger hole.

They keep saying this won't work and that won't work, well if that is so, they shouldn't have a problem implementing it and proving Tony wrong. Easy really.


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> LOL thanks for that, thanks for pointing out that the Government with the help of 1,2,3,4 independents, or the Liberals, and/or the greens can pass any legislation it wants...very helpful.  just a shame that somehow you don't seem to want to face the reality that on its own the Government can do NOTHING.
> 
> (I will use big fonts to help you get the idea)
> 
> ...



Not in the Reps.

If Labor can't get its legislation through the the House of Reps, it can't govern. If it can't govern, it should relinquish office.

Even after all their noise, Labor has not even put its offshore processing legislation to the Reps. That's how serious they are.


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> So just like in 2001 the Government of the day NEEDS the support of another party to get ANY legislation thru, in 2001 the Coalation Govt passed the PACIFIC SOLUTION LEGISLATION with the help of the OPPOSITION LABOR PARTY.




So It shouldn't be too difficult to reinstate the Pacific Solution, if as you say, they supported it when it was introduced. 

You seem to be putting forward all the reasons why the goon show should agree with Tony?

Maybe they are under the misconception, that agreeing with Tony would cause more damage, than doing nothing and pretending it is Tony's problem. They are truly delusional, it just reflects on their inability to govern, they really are in big trouble.


----------



## MrBurns (23 June 2012)

Nobody wants to send women and children to Malaysia, nobody except Gillard.

By her manipulating, politicking and arrogance she has, to put it plainly, killed another 100 people.


----------



## Macquack (23 June 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Nobody wants to send women and children to Malaysia, nobody except Gillard.
> 
> By her manipulating, politicking and arrogance she has, to put it plainly, *killed another 100 people*.




Get off you high horse Burns. 

As much as it is a tragedy, those people chose to board a rusty vessel and take their chances on the high seas.


----------



## MrBurns (23 June 2012)

Macquack said:


> Get off you high horse Burns.
> 
> As much as it is a tradedy, those people chose to board a rusty vessel and take their chances on the high seas.




They didnt do it under Howards policies and they probably wouldn't have done it if that policy continued.

Gillard is a cold blooded professional user of people, to hear her pretend to be concerned in her news broadcast made me sick.


----------



## numbercruncher (23 June 2012)

MrBurns said:


> They didnt do it under Howards policies and they probably wouldn't have done it if that policy continued.
> 
> Gillard is a cold blooded professional user of people, to hear her pretend to be concerned in her news broadcast made me sick.




But we better not talk about the millions of refugees caused by bush and howard invading Iraq and Afghanistan not mention the Massive casualty list - but hell lets make a big deal about a few thousand that try to flee the persecution to downunder and blame which ever political party suis our personal agendas ....

:bad:


----------



## MrBurns (23 June 2012)

I don't have a personal agenda 
And what has a war to try to rid the world of terrorism got to do with this
Gillard is all i said she is and more


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> But we better not talk about the millions of refugees caused by bush and howard invading Iraq and Afghanistan not mention the Massive casualty list - but hell lets make a big deal about a few thousand that try to flee the persecution to downunder and blame which ever political party suis our personal agendas ....
> 
> :bad:




You really are pulling a long bow now, lets talk all wars through history?
The issue is the few thousand arriving, with no papers of identification, no means of proving intent.
I just hope all you bleeding heart club type, have put your name down to take them in to home detention at your place.
No, that would be too honest.
Reminds me of someone I worked with. 
He was saying how unfair it was, that indigenous Australians found it difficult to find rental properties(he had rental properties).
I said to him, I know an Aboriginal couple looking for a rental property, he told me I was a smart ar$e and should mind my own business.
Untill Australia becomes like the other countries in the world where bombs are being detonated indiscriminately, the do gooders will rattle on. Makes them feel good.


----------



## MrBurns (23 June 2012)

MrBurns said:


> I don't have a personal agenda
> And what has a war to try to rid the world of terrorism got to do with this
> Gillard is all i said she is and more




I posted this from my iPhone using an app called Forumrunner, back on the lap top now.


----------



## noco (23 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> But we better not talk about the millions of refugees caused by bush and howard invading Iraq and Afghanistan not mention the Massive casualty list - but hell lets make a big deal about a few thousand that try to flee the persecution to downunder and blame which ever political party suis our personal agendas ....
> 
> :bad:




People should start to realize this a peaceful Muslim invasion and it is happening in all Western countries.

They are not fleeing from perscution at all. They are being paid to come here and when they get here we continue to pay them. It is a world wide plot dominate the world with Sharia law. It would not surprise me if the Greens are not in the act as well.

Go talk to people in France, Holland and Denmark.


----------



## sails (23 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> But we better not talk about the millions of refugees caused by bush and howard invading Iraq and Afghanistan not mention the Massive casualty list - but hell lets make a big deal about a few thousand that try to flee the persecution to downunder and blame which ever political party suis our personal agendas ....
> 
> :bad:





but hell lets make a big deal about a few thousand *wealthy people* that try to flee.  

Was Captain Emad trying to flee?  How many more like him are coming into this country?  How many are terrorists?  Do we even know?

And why should Aussie taxpayers be paying welfare for people who can afford to pay so much to get here?  If they have money why aren't they supporting themselves?  Do they hide their money like they lose their documents?

And the above is said in the context that I have no problem with genuine refugees fleeing for their lives.  However, I'm not so sure that the invasion going on is genuine refugees.  It seems these are the ones with money. 

And neither do Malaysia think they are genuine and the article below shows that they could be a major security risk. 



> “(Home Minister) Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein’s blind acceptance of the 800 boatpeople who are effectively Australia’s “rejects” puts Malaysia’s national security at risk.
> 
> “These 800 boatpeople who are newly-arrived in Australia would not have been screened by UNHCR, thus they are likely not genuine refugees at all,” said Kok in a statement, adding that the backgrounds, language ability, work skills of the 800 were currently “unclear and dubious.”




Read more: Malaysia-Aussie refugee swap national security risk, says Kok


----------



## moXJO (23 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> LOL thanks for that, thanks for pointing out that the Government with the help of 1,2,3,4 independents, or the Liberals, and/or the greens can pass any legislation it wants...very helpful.  just a shame that somehow you don't seem to want to face the reality that on its own the Government can do NOTHING.
> 
> (I will use big fonts to help you get the idea)
> 
> ...




And how do you think we got here in the first place? Your idiot labor government dismantling policy that worked for more political feel-good f**kup. But oh no lets go  crying "bi-partisan" when the going gets tough because we f**ked up yet another policy.  And what is Labors excuse "It's Abbotts fault" Yes the catchcry and biggest cop out of the losers, something that only the most rusted on manage to believe. And how anyone could rust on to this steaming pile beggar’s belief.

This is the worst government I have ever seen and they keep on making stuff up after stuff up while bringing in bad policy, red tape and restrictions. And when I think they might be moving in the right direction they manage to stuff that up and make it even worse. I can't wait for the chance to boot them back to the wilderness. For God’s sake when you have to hide the fact you are a labor member on your election poster then you know your party is trash.

It's on labors head and no one else


----------



## Julia (23 June 2012)

moXJO said:


> For God’s sake when you have to hide the fact you are a labor member on your election poster then you know your party is trash.



Says it all really.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (23 June 2012)

I'm going to try and chase down So_Cynical's blinkered argument and fabricated outrage at the Coalition one more time.

I actually thought I did it here (read that and the following dozen or so posts):

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16184&page=93&p=700379#post700379

SC went silent at that time, so I thought the links to the High Court judgment on the Malaysia Solution case did the job.

But here we are again.  Let's not construct any excuse for this Rudd/Gillard stewardship of Labor with any minority Government excuse.

Re-opening Nauru would be an act of Executive Government, undertaken from the Prime Ministerial offices at the back of Parliament House, not in the legislative chamber.

It's that simple.  This is especially so now that they've signed the Refugees Convention since it was dismantled by a proud Senator Chris Evans (do I need to re-link that speech?).

We would get a clean, Australian-run offshore processing site.  But the collective loss of pride for the ALP and for the mule-stubborn Gillard would be unbearable.  So she sticks with the inhumane Malaysia solution and blames the impasse while people die.

Now, SC's indoctrination is likely to come up with the line "But it didn't work, they all ended back here anyway".  But the 30% who were refused actually went home.  You won't find 30 people who came on a boat who have been sent home in the last 4 years.

There's no convincing some people. So be it.


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2012)

The Malaysian solution was flawed and thrown out, also it covered 800 in return for 4000.
Lets move on, since then the problem is 5000 does that mean we take 25,000.
It was stupid then, it is stupid now.
It still goes back to the wheel wasn't broken when labor came in. They chose to reinvent it, why is it everyone else's fault.


----------



## So_Cynical (24 June 2012)

So_Cynical said:


> LOL thanks for that, thanks for pointing out that the Government with the help of 1,2,3,4 independents, or the Liberals, and/or the greens can pass any legislation it wants...very helpful.  just a shame that somehow you don't seem to want to face the reality that on its own the Government can do NOTHING.
> 
> (I will use big fonts to help you get the idea)
> 
> ...






dutchie said:


> Obviously.............................................I.............................................did.....................................................not..........................................speak..............................................slowly..................................................enough.....................................................sigh




More than happy to help dutchie....what of the above didn't you understand?



MrBurns said:


> Nobody wants to send women and children to Malaysia, nobody except Gillard.



 LOL no the opposition wants to send them back to Indonesia...cos that's so much better than Malaysia ...right. 



StumpyPhantom said:


> I'm going to try and chase down So_Cynical's blinkered argument and fabricated outrage at the Coalition one more time.
> 
> I actually thought I did it here (read that and the following dozen or so posts):
> 
> ...




I went quiet cos i read it and its mostly gibberish to me...i got kicked out of high school in 1979 so struggle to even read a document like that ruling, so have to depend somewhat on the media etc, thus have to accept that the Labor legislation allows the Govt of the day to set its own policy. (as reported) now you do seem to have some knowledge of the legal side of the argument (StumpyPhantom) that i dont have, hpwever i know what a redneck  Liberal is so have absolutely no problem labelling us as such and there fore treating your posts with comtemp as they deserve.


----------



## numbercruncher (24 June 2012)

These rich refugees thay you fear so much wouldnt be here if Abbot hadnt blocked the Malaysia solution.

Maybe you people need to start petitioning for Australias withdrawl from the refugee convention ?

I dont really like Labor muh at the moment myself , but this issue is just politics , refugees are the pawns.


----------



## numbercruncher (24 June 2012)

Seems to be some denial as to how many of our refugees were caused by War misadventures?




> Afghanistan, where the U.S. has been at war for more than a decade, continues to be the top producer of refugees with 2.7 million. The UNHCR estimates that one out of four refugees originate from Afghanistan. About 95% of them reside in neighboring Pakistan and Iran.
> 
> Iraq, where the United States pulled out the last of its troops at the end of last year after an eight-year war, produced the second largest refugee population with 1.4 million.




http://leanforward.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/18/12279878-refugee-crisis-escalates-afghanistan-remains-top-source?lite


----------



## sails (24 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> These rich refugees thay you fear so much wouldnt be here if Abbot hadnt blocked the Malaysia solution.
> 
> Maybe you people need to start petitioning for Australias withdrawl from the refugee convention ?
> 
> I dont really like Labor muh at the moment myself , but this issue is just politics , refugees are the pawns.





And neither would these wealthy people be coming here in droves if Rudd and Gillard didn't abolish the best solution that was deterring them.  At least Nauru was run by Australians and gave a humane place of refuge for those who are genuinely fleeing persecution.

And you reckon it is political?  Who made it political?  Why didn't Rudd and Gillard leave something alone that was clearly working so well.  But no, they had to meddle with it big noting themselves that they could do better.  Massive FAIL.

And why is all the pressure on Abbott to cave in on Malaysia?  What about the Greens who are in bed with labor?

Here is Gillard making Boat Arrivals political when she could have left it alone saving billions of dollars and many people would not have died:



Gillard needs to put the system back to how it was and stop blaming Abbott when she and Rudd politicised this issue all on their own.


----------



## sails (24 June 2012)

And don't forget that these wealthy arrivals are taking the place of genuine refugees who cannot afford to pay smuggler fees.  People in squalid camps around the world.




> You must also cringe that those who buy their way here from Pakistan, Iran and Sri Lanka take the places of real refugees.
> 
> If you are of sterner stuff, you must rage at this waste of billions of dollars. You must fume at being exploited by fake refugees such as people smuggler Captain Emad.




Read more:  Fix these lethal laws. Now


----------



## StumpyPhantom (24 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Seems to be some denial as to how many of our refugees were caused by War misadventures?
> 
> 
> http://leanforward.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/18/12279878-refugee-crisis-escalates-afghanistan-remains-top-source?lite




No problem with what you say, numbercruncher.  The ethnic Hazaras are amongst the most persecuted peoples on Earth, and have been for centuries.

But let's not confuse that with our people smuggler problem.

The statistics will ultimately show this.  When the floodgates opened and the smugglers had a product to sell, a very large proportion on the boats were middle-class Iranians from the suburbs of Teheran, who had the up-front cash for the smugglers (ie no need to set up syndicates here to collect from families upon arrival).

That's my basic problem.  We have a defacto Immigration Department working the mobile phones out of the smoke-filled cafes of Jakarta (and Sydney), using John Howard's famous line, about choosing who gets to come to Australia.

I would be just as happy to just go and get our whole annual intake from Afghanistan.  But the loss of sovereignty implicit in the people smuggler trade, including the loss of lives, is just very hard to take.


----------



## Julia (24 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> These rich refugees thay you fear so much wouldnt be here if Abbot hadnt blocked the Malaysia solution.



And how would the Malaysia solution be playing out, given it was only for 800 and we now have thousands?
That was one of the silliest things about it.


----------



## sails (24 June 2012)

Julia said:


> And how would the Malaysia solution be playing out, given it was only for 800 and we now have thousands?
> That was one of the silliest things about it.





Yes, this was mentioned on the Bolt Report this morning.  As Amanda Vanstone pointed out, the Malaysion "solution" ends with the first 800 of our arrivals.  She suggested that any smart smuggler would get the first 800 out of the way (even pay for them) and then it's back to smuggling the wealthy ones again.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2012)

sails said:


> Yes, this was mentioned on the Bolt Report this morning.  As Amanda Vanstone pointed out, the Malaysion "solution" ends with the first 800 of our arrivals.  She suggested that any smart smuggler would get the first 800 out of the way (even pay for them) and then it's back to smuggling the wealthy ones again.



Yrs, at the very least, it needed to be open ended and on equal terms.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2012)

Tony Abbott is sticking to his guns.

He didn't repeat what Amanda Vanstone correctly pointed out on today's Bolt Report, but he did say the following,



> ''The first point I make is that what's needed here is not more bipartisanship, but effective policies,'' he said in Melbourne.
> 
> ''What's needed here is not compromise for compromise sake, but policies that work.
> 
> ...






> ''It's the government's policies that aren't working and it's the government that needs to change its policies.''
> 
> Asked whether there was room for compromise on the so-called Malaysia solution, he replied, ''I think it's up to the government to say what it's going to do differently. Plainly, the Malaysian people swap is not offshore processing, it's offshore dumping.
> 
> ...




All valid points.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...um-seeker-policy/story-fn9hm1gu-1226406704519


----------



## numbercruncher (24 June 2012)

By the way yo dont need to be Poor to be a refugee - just homeless often because of ad hoc oil wars etc.


----------



## noco (24 June 2012)

It is no longer a trickle, it is a flood. The Gillard Government is becoming so boring with their excuse in blaming Abbott. The Greens could back them tomorrow on the Malayasin deal and Gillard would have her own way.

They could have stopped this rot 6 months ago with TPV and the Nauru solution. Why does Labor insist it won't work when it was a proven solution. They once used the excuse that Nauru was not a signatory to the UNHCR convention. Nauru has now sign up, so what is the problem? It worked before and it can work again.

Now IF and NC don't harp on about the fact  they all finished up in Australia. Only 70% finished in Australia and New Zealand, the rest were sent back to their country of origin. I believe it was 40% to Aus and 30% to NZ.It is also a fact that those who were accepted into Australia were not gauranteed they would be allowed to bring their families. This was a major deterrent before and it should remain so.

If Gillard was to swallow her pride and try the proven solution, it will stop the boats. If it does not work, then she could  say to Abbott "I told you so".

It think it is highly political in that she is scared of the Greens.


http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/14026157/asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted/


----------



## DB008 (24 June 2012)

noco said:


> People should start to realize this a peaceful Muslim invasion and it is happening in all Western countries.
> 
> They are not fleeing from perscution at all. They are being paid to come here and when they get here we continue to pay them. It is a world wide plot dominate the world with Sharia law. It would not surprise me if the Greens are not in the act as well.
> 
> Go talk to people in France, Holland and Denmark.




Yes, but bring this point up and your a racist.
Which race am I offending??? Hmm...

Tonight on Channel 7's Sunday Program​
*Behind the veil​*






http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/article/-/14014945/behind-the-veil/​


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

The good thing is Noco, the noose is tightening, the government has lost all control of the border. 
Their poor fiscal management, has required the introduction of a new broad based tax and increasing marginal tax rates.
The economy is slowing to a standstill and will leave labor with no option than call an early election. 
If they don't the end result will be worse.IMO


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2012)

He's right here too.



> Federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has dismissed calls from both sides of politics for a bipartisan approach to offshore processing, saying it is up to the Greens to break the political stalemate.




It is after all the Greens who are in partnership with Labor to form government.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-24/abbott-puts-onus-on-greens-to-break-asylum-deadlock/4089312

Another boat.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted-20120624-20w43.html


----------



## IFocus (24 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Tony Abbott is sticking to his guns.
> 
> He didn't repeat what Amanda Vanstone correctly pointed out on today's Bolt Report, but he did say the following,
> 
> ...





A valid political wedge you mean surely?


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> He's right here too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The greens aren't going to do anything, the more labor blames the libs, the more the greens pick up labor votes.
It is a no lose situation for the greens, say nothing and pick up disgruntled labor voters, who won't vote for the  coalition.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It is a no lose situation for the greens, say nothing and pick up disgruntled labor voters, who won't vote for the  coalition.



And no-win for Labor. It's amazing they can't see that.

Labor should have some courage and take the challenge up to the Greens. That way, they might win back a few votes.


----------



## IFocus (24 June 2012)

The real problem I worry about is the African refugees coming in. Somalis are not accepted by other African nations due to the problems they bring. 

We are part of Asia and should be engaged and taking people from the region to further at least our interests in the region how do Africans figure in this?

The Malaysian policy at least starts to engage in the region unlike Abbotts stand which will continue to take Africans.


----------



## noco (24 June 2012)

A compromise to this boat people debacle is, in my mind, essential to stop any more death at sea..

So Ms. Gillard and Mr. Abbott here is my suggestion.

Give Ms. Gillard her Malayasin solution to the point of accepting 4000 genuine refugees for the return of 800 illegals to Malaya and in return from then on, and there will be plenty to come, send the ongoing lot to Nauru with TPV.

In addition to all this, start turning the boats back where humanly possible.

Problem solved if both agree. It what you call compromise.

But is it possible?


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> A valid political wedge you mean surely?



It's Labor who have firmly wedged themselves between clinging on to office and sucking up to the Greens idiological nonsense.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2012)

noco said:


> Give Ms. Gillard her Malayasin solution to the point of accepting 4000 genuine refugees for the return of 800 illegals to Malaya and from then on, and there will be plenty to come, send the ongoing lot to Nauru with TPV.



Hell will freeze over before Labor accepts TPV's. That would upset the Greens.

As for Malaysia, that for all practical purposes is dead. If Labor put it to the floor, it would expose divisions in their own party. This, after all their bluster, is most likely the reason Julia Gillard backed down from tabling the legislation last year.


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> The real problem I worry about is the African refugees coming in. Somalis are not accepted by other African nations due to the problems they bring.
> 
> We are part of Asia and should be engaged and taking people from the region to further at least our interests in the region how do Africans figure in this?
> 
> The Malaysian policy at least starts to engage in the region unlike Abbotts stand which will continue to take Africans.




The African issue is a real problem as you say, trying to make it Tony's fault is getting to be tiresome. 
It would appear that the libs should be in government, as they are to blame for most of our problems.
Like I have said on numerous occassions, it is a really sad state of affairs, when the government is blaming the opposition for its failings. 
Smacks of an inept government with a huge inferiority complex, probably brought on by an immature application of policy.

The Malaysian policy was and allways will be a joke, a scam and add hock policy on the run.


----------



## noco (24 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Hell will freeze over before Labor accepts TPV's. That would upset the Greens.
> 
> As for Malaysia, that for all practical purposes is dead. If Labor put it to the floor, it would expose divisions in their own party. This, after all their bluster, is most likely the reason Julia Gillard backed down from tabling the legislation last year.




Well Doc, both parties will have to give and take if there is ever to be a solution. To hell with the Greens. They are not needed in this case.

I am interested to hear suggestions from other ASF members as to how it may be possible to band two stubborn heads together.


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

noco said:


> Well Doc, both parties will have to give and take if there is ever to be a solution. To hell with the Greens. They are not needed in this case.
> 
> I am interested to hear suggestions from other ASF members as to how it may be possible to band two stubborn heads together.




It is easy for labor, agree to Tony's solution, but agree under duress. Then if it doesn't work, labor are on a winner, Tony looks like an absolute failure.
However that takes guts, because if it does work, labor look like dicks for dismantling the policy in the first place.
So it is a game of brinkmanship and labor have no b@lls.LOL


----------



## noco (24 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It is easy for labor, agree to Tony's solution, but agree under duress. Then if it doesn't work, labor are on a winner, Tony looks like an absolute failure.
> However that takes guts, because if it does work, labor look like dicks for dismantling the policy in the first place.
> So it is a game of brinkmanship and labor have no b@lls.LOL




Labor do not want to do the Nauru thing because they know damn well it will work and they cannot face the humiliation.
The only compromise is to do both. Then both parties have had a win. Why not try it for gawd sake?


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

noco said:


> Labor do not want to do the Nauru thing because they know damn well it will work and they cannot face the humiliation.
> The only compromise is to do both. Then both parties have had a win. Why not try it for gawd sake?




The problem with the Malaysian solution is it always was a stupid plan, firstly a one for four swap and secondly dumping people rather than processing was never going to be legal.
Even if the coalition agreed to change the law to allow it, it would be legally challenged in the international courts, because it's dumb. You can't just change laws on human rights to facilitate a change in government policy, that is unless you are a third tier country with an inept government.


----------



## bellenuit (24 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> As for Malaysia, that for all practical purposes is dead. If Labor put it to the floor, it would expose divisions in their own party. This, after all their bluster, is most likely the reason Julia Gillard backed down from tabling the legislation last year.




+10


----------



## bellenuit (24 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with the Malaysian solution is it always was a stupid plan, firstly a one for four swap and secondly dumping people rather than processing was never going to be legal.
> Even if the coalition agreed to change the law to allow it, it would be legally challenged in the international courts, because it's dumb. You can't just change laws on human rights to facilitate a change in government policy, that is unless you are a third tier country with an inept government.




Wasn't it one for eight?


----------



## Julia (24 June 2012)

noco said:


> Now IF and NC don't harp on about the fact  they all finished up in Australia. Only 70% finished in Australia and New Zealand, the rest were sent back to their country of origin. I believe it was 40% to Aus and 30% to NZ.It is also a fact that those who were accepted into Australia were not gauranteed they would be allowed to bring their families. This was a major deterrent before and it should remain so.



Yes, and this is a far cry from the frequently repeated claim that "most of them ended up in Australia".  They did not at all.



sptrawler said:


> The greens aren't going to do anything, the more labor blames the libs, the more the greens pick up labor votes.
> It is a no lose situation for the greens, say nothing and pick up disgruntled labor voters, who won't vote for the  coalition.



Exactly.  They don't have to do a thing.  And we see the result in their vote rising in the polls.



IFocus said:


> The real problem I worry about is the African refugees coming in. Somalis are not accepted by other African nations due to the problems they bring.



Many African nations have a far more genuine refugee problem than much of Asia.  I'd rather support a genuine African coming here than a wealthy economic place taker from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan et al.



noco said:


> Well Doc, both parties will have to give and take if there is ever to be a solution. To hell with the Greens. They are not needed in this case.
> 
> I am interested to hear suggestions from other ASF members as to how it may be possible to band two stubborn heads together.



Entirely possible but politically unacceptable to both sides.


----------



## dutchie (24 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> Wasn't it one for eight?




one for five    

we give them 800 they give us 4,000


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> one for five
> 
> we give them 800 they give us 4,000




I stand corrected on the maths, but didn't take it into consideration when making the post. Thought it was superfluous to the core issue. I will go and find a calculator next time. LOL


----------



## dutchie (25 June 2012)

From Phillip Coorey - SMH

"There is little dispute that *Rudd's abolition of Howard government policies *has led to the situation now whereby the boats arrive regularly, filling detention centres to the point community detention is now required.

This system of onshore processing is the very situation for which the Greens and refugee groups have argued and *the numbers arriving are even higher than the experts warned*.

When the inevitable tragedy strikes, *the Greens and others have nothing to offer*, other than some utopian vision of a regional solution, something Gillard tried to start - and was burnt.

Last year, *the High Court ruled Labor's Malaysia plan illegal *and the government needs the opposition's help to legislate around that decision."

(My bolds)

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...wo-years-on-20120624-20wb0.html#ixzz1ykuNMxYm


----------



## drsmith (25 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> From Phillip Coorey - SMH
> 
> When the inevitable tragedy strikes, *the Greens and others have nothing to offer*, other than some utopian vision of a regional solution, something Gillard tried to start - and was burnt.
> 
> (My bolds)



The Greens offer more of their usual rubbish.



> Following the deaths of up to 90 asylum-seekers last week, Greens leader Christine Milne today said her party wanted a “humanitarian solution” to the current border protection impasse.
> 
> She said increasing Australia's refugee intake from 14,000 to 25,000 a year would deter asylum-seekers from making the dangerous boat journey and prevent lives being lost at sea.




How will that stop the boats ?

This is a party that shares the power of government, yet the best it can do is continue to pedal this feel-good nosnense. It's around their feet that the bodies of the dead are piling.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...um-seeker-crisis/story-fn9hm1gu-1226407380094


----------



## drsmith (25 June 2012)

noco said:


> Well Doc, both parties will have to give and take if there is ever to be a solution. To hell with the Greens. They are not needed in this case.



I too would like to say to hell with the Greens, but the electorate can't say that until the next election. Till then, they share the power of government with Labor and with that power comes responsibility.


----------



## Calliope (25 June 2012)

The solution according to Christine Milne.  The flaw in her "reasoning" is that allowing more legitimate migrants who are in the queue, will somehow reduce the numbers of illegals from Iran and Afghanistan and Sri Lanka who are queue jumpers.



> OPENING Australia's doors to 11,000 more refugees a year will solve the nation's people-smuggling crisis, the Greens have declared.
> 
> Following the deaths of up to 90 asylum-seekers last week, Greens leader Christine Milne today said her party wanted a “humanitarian solution” to the current border protection impasse.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...um-seeker-crisis/story-fn9hm1gu-1226407380094


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2012)

Actually, can someone tell me anything this government has got right?


----------



## dutchie (25 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Actually, can someone tell me anything this government has got right?




Easy - Rudds apology.

and then there's..........Rudds apology

and then there's..........................................


----------



## Calliope (25 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> Easy - Rudds apology.
> 
> and then there's..........Rudds apology
> 
> and then there's..........................................




Which one?

Stolen Generation?

Forgotten people?

The homeless?

The Flght Attendant?

Pink Bats Insulation deaths?

My favourite is his apology to the survivors of the 1984 Wallaby team whose reputations have been tarnished by association with the current crop of Australian rugby tourists in Dublin in Nov 2009.



> “I mean fair suck of the old savaloy sausage roll,” Rudd said. “Fairy dinkum, these drongbats don’t deserve to stand in the shade of Ella or Campo. I mean if you want to run with the big dogs you’ve got to piss in the long grass.”


----------



## Julia (25 June 2012)

> I mean fair suck of the old savaloy sausage roll,” Rudd said. “Fairy dinkum, these drongbats don’t deserve to stand in the shade of Ella or Campo. I mean if you want to run with the big dogs you’ve got to piss in the long grass.”



Is that an apocryphal story or did he actually say that?  Surely not!


----------



## Calliope (25 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Is that an apocryphal story or did he actually say that?  Surely not!




I know it sounds hard to believe Julia, that he would spout such nonsense. It's just his pretence that he is "one of the boys."


http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/11/17/kevin-rudd-apologises-for-wallaby-performance/

This is another apology.





I will probably be reprimanded for :topic


----------



## IFocus (25 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> From Phillip Coorey - SMH
> 
> "There is little dispute that *Rudd's abolition of Howard government policies *has led to the situation now whereby the boats arrive regularly, filling detention centres to the point community detention is now required.
> 
> ...




You missed a bit or two (my bolds)



> Abbott wants people to believe that what worked last time will work again. Detention and processing on Nauru, temporary protection visas, and turning boats around when safe to do so.






> *Abbott received the same briefing from the then secretary of the Immigration Department Andrew Metcalfe, as did the media. Metcalfe told Abbott his policies - of which Metcalfe was a principal architect *- *would not work again*. Nauru would be no more a deterrent than Christmas Island because people now knew that once processed they would most likely be sent to Australia.
> 
> Temporary protection visas were not considered a deterrent and as for turning the boats back, the Indonesians would not permit it. Last time it was tried, it proved the most effective measure of all until the people smugglers started scuttling the boats when intercepted, endangering everybody.
> 
> ...






Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...wo-years-on-20120624-20wb0.html#ixzz1ynHdjIE1


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> You missed a bit or two (my bolds)
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...wo-years-on-20120624-20wb0.html#ixzz1ynHdjIE1




Well then IFocus, the answer is easy for Gillard, all she needs do is say "In frustration I will adopt Abbotts recomendation, however I have great reservations as to the outcome".
It can't go wrong, that is unless the measures suggested actually work, even then she could make footage out of the fact she was prepared to compromise.
However reality is she doesn't listen to anyone and is more arrogant than Rudd, which in itself is pretty hard to believe.
There really is no out on this one, it is lose, lose for labor.


----------



## drsmith (25 June 2012)

> emporary protection visas were not considered a deterrent and as for turning the boats back, the Indonesians would not permit it. Last time it was tried, it proved the most effective measure of all until the people smugglers started scuttling the boats when intercepted, endangering everybody.



The problem with this is that boat arrivals surged only after Labor took office.

A solution of the Malaysia type has the potential to be a lasting deterrent, but it needs to be open ended and an even bargain for both countries involved (one for one).


----------



## StumpyPhantom (25 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> The problem with this is that boat arrivals surged only after Labor took office.
> 
> A solution of the Malaysia type has the potential to be a lasting deterrent, but it needs to be open ended and an even bargain for both countries involved (one for one).




This is a perfect storm brought on by Labor.  The scale of the boat arrivals now suggests that the genie is out of the bottle.

Labor's fumbling over the last 5 years, the ill-fated Malaysia solution which brought on the High Court challenge, the political stalemate, leading to the Greens inspired agenda now reigning supreme.

But let's not forget Labor's culpability in the situation we now find ourselves in.  In dismantling the Pacific Solution in 2008, they employed a 'scorched earth' policy so that there was no return to Nauru.  It was Labor who publicly disseminated the statistics as to why Nauru, in their view, didn't work.

But we now all agree that it DID work.  Compared to the current situation, it was a brilliant success.

This was a government big on rhetoric, but nothing else.  So the Apology to the Stolen Generation, with the greatest of respect, was rhetoric.  Signing the Kyoto Protocol also arguably was.

The problem was when you apply that soaring rhetoric to asylum-seekers, a real issue with practical implications, then you have the disaster you currently see.


----------



## noco (25 June 2012)

As I understand it, 800 illegals who were to be sent to Malayasia was a capped number. What happens to the excess after the first 800 arrivals?

The other point that concerns me is if Gillard did relent and accept the Nauru proposal, how will it be administered? Will Labor go out of it's way to make it fail by inciting riots thorugh a contributing factor of say inadequate food or some other means. 

Labor has stuffed up so much in the past, it would be very easy for them to do the same at Nauru. I just do not trust them. Labor will try to politicize it just to discredit the Coaltition.


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> This is a perfect storm brought on by Labor.  The scale of the boat arrivals now suggests that the genie is out of the bottle.
> 
> Labor's fumbling over the last 5 years, the ill-fated Malaysia solution which brought on the High Court challenge, the political stalemate, leading to the Greens inspired agenda now reigning supreme.
> 
> ...




When this government is long gone and the dust has settled, there will be a comedy made of this time in our political history.
There may be a series made, it would be a melding of yes minister and Fawly Towers, there is endless material.
It will be brilliant the actual stuff ups are better than fiction.


----------



## drsmith (25 June 2012)

On 2GB (Steve Price's show with Andrew Bolt), Scott Morrison has declared that the Coalition would support the Malaysian solution if it was a signatory to the refugee convention.


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> On 2GB (Steve Price's show with Andrew Bolt), Scott Morrison has declared that the Coalition would support the Malaysian solution if it was a signatory to the refugee convention.





Well that would put a whole new bent on the impasse. Also will test Gillard and Carr on their diplomacy skills.


----------



## drsmith (25 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well that would put a whole new bent on the impasse. Also will test Gillard and Carr on their diplomacy skills.



Bolt and Price really pushed him to get that response.

Andrew Bolt has allready replied to a post on his website while he's still on air with Steve Price.



> Andrew stop badgering Scott Morrison. I understand what he was trying to say. How can you guarantee how any other sovereign country was going to treat the asylum we sent them? All it would take is for 4 corners to send a crew 1 year down the line to track down someone we sent back who has been beaten and locked up to say it was Abbott Abbott Abbott
> 
> CSC (Reply)
> Mon 25 Jun 12 (08:23pm)
> ...




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/on_2gb8/#commentsmore


----------



## Julia (25 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> You missed a bit or two (my bolds)





> Abbott received the same briefing from the then secretary of the Immigration Department Andrew Metcalfe, as did the media. Metcalfe told Abbott his policies - of which Metcalfe was a principal architect - would not work again. Nauru would be no more a deterrent than Christmas Island because people now knew that once processed they would most likely be sent to Australia.



Here you go again perpetuating that myth that asylum seekers almost all ended up in Australia.
Read earlier in the thread.  Between 30% and 40% ended up in Australia.  The rest were sent home or to NZ.  30% or 40% is not "most".




sptrawler said:


> Well then IFocus, the answer is easy for Gillard, all she needs do is say "In frustration I will adopt Abbotts recomendation, however I have great reservations as to the outcome".
> It can't go wrong, that is unless the measures suggested actually work, even then she could make footage out of the fact she was prepared to compromise.



Agree.  She can carry on about how she is succumbing to the force of the opposition in a self sacrificing attempt to save lives at sea, yada yada.  And then if it all goes wrong, she can claim no fault.



drsmith said:


> The problem with this is that boat arrivals surged only after Labor took office.
> 
> A solution of the Malaysia type has the potential to be a lasting deterrent, but it needs to be open ended and an even bargain for both countries involved (one for one).



Yes,  the original suggestion looks pathetic given the numbers arriving since then.  Perhaps the government thought just one shipment of people to Malaysia would do the job of deterring future arrivals.
I doubt that very much.




StumpyPhantom said:


> This was a government big on rhetoric, but nothing else.  So the Apology to the Stolen Generation, with the greatest of respect, was rhetoric.  Signing the Kyoto Protocol also arguably was.



So true.   Nothing has changed for aboriginal people.  Nothing has changed re so called climate change.


----------



## drsmith (26 June 2012)

That little breakaway group is beginning to work out that a solution to this is not easy.



> WHILE the major parties are engaged in a stand-off over the issue, a group of MPs has met to consider ways of breaking a parliamentary deadlock.
> 
> Mr Windsor convened the group that includes fellow independent Rob Oakeshott, Liberal MPs Mal Washer and Judi Moylan, National MP Tony Crook and Labor's Steve Georganas.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...r-on-boat-policy/story-fn3dxiwe-1226408572786

The politics of this is moving. The Coalition need to indicate an openness to accepting Malaysia subject to some reasonable conditions,

1) Malaysia sign the refugee convention. 
2) The arrangement should be open-ended.
3) Due to Labor's poor negotiation, it would be difficult to undo 800 for 4000, but in the context of one for one above, better terms could be negotiated

This would keep the whole issue firmly on Labor's plate.

The difficulty I have with this though is that it absolves the Greens of any responsibility, something the media at large seems very reluctant to pursue.

Scott Morrison on 2GB with Steve Price and Andrew Bolt yesterday evening.



> Scott Morrison: If the government accepted our amendment to their bill (allowing the Malaysian people swap deal) which has legally binding protection, which was that we only sent people to countries that signed the Refugee Convention, which is a legally binding protection, that bill would pass the parliament tonight.
> 
> Bolt: So if Malaysia says “we will sign it” (the Refugee Convention) you will allow the Malaysian people swap.
> 
> Scott Morrison: Yes.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2012)

On the 730 report last night Scott Morrision when quizzed by Leigh Sales didnt say he would agree to anything, just that Labor hadnt offered anything, stupid answer to a straight forward question. "would you agree if Labor gave you everything you want"


----------



## Julia (26 June 2012)

MrBurns said:


> On the 730 report last night Scott Morrision when quizzed by Leigh Sales didnt say he would agree to anything, just that Labor hadnt offered anything, stupid answer to a straight forward question. "would you agree if Labor gave you everything you want"



He did refuse a clear answer.  But I took that more as his irritation at Leigh Sales trying to play mediator and broker a deal on television.  He said as much.

I'm surprised no one has commented on the government chartering a 737 to fly ONE asylum seeker from Christmas Island to Perth after the capsizing.


----------



## dutchie (26 June 2012)

Its the 5th day of the 5th test, the decider, and the captain of the Australian team (Tony Abbott) leads his team on to the field at the start of play with a 500 run lead and with the opposition nine wickets down, just then the captain of the other team (Julia Gillard) walks up to Tony and says "I am ready to negotiate a draw now".


----------



## Happy (26 June 2012)

Julia said:


> ... I'm surprised no one has commented on the government chartering a 737 to fly ONE asylum seeker from Christmas Island to Perth after the capsizing.




Some charter flights are direct opposite to frugal living, austerity measures or even CO2/climate control.

Same thought crossed my mind when Kevin with 100+ others flew to sign Kyoto agreement.

It could be laughable if it was not sad.

Why Julia and other World 20 leaders don't use fast internet instead of adding to CO2/climate problems?
(Suspect, they started connection from Tasmania and Julia doesn't have it yet .. )


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> That little breakaway group is beginning to work out that a solution to this is not easy.




What gives with this clown Mal Washer, Doc. He is the  Liberal doctor who got considerable air time for continually checking Craig Thomson for signs of stress. He is one of yours. Is he ready to switch sides like Turnbull? He has all the appearances of a heavy boozer.


----------



## Julia (26 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> What gives with this clown Mal Washer, Doc. He is the  Liberal doctor who got considerable air time for continually checking Craig Thomson for signs of stress. He is one of yours. Is he ready to switch sides like Turnbull? He has all the appearances of a heavy boozer.



That whole group shares a philosophy about asylum seekers which closely aligns to that of The Greens.


----------



## Julia (26 June 2012)

Our border 'policy' is causing incredulity outside of Australia.  Talking with a NZ friend yesterday, he remarked on what a total stuff up is occurring here.  

The conversation reminded me of a Greens member a few days ago who blithely said:  "we should have completely open borders for everyone.  We have such open borders for New Zealanders, and there's no problem".


----------



## quinny (26 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> What gives with this clown Mal Washer, Doc. He is the  Liberal doctor who got considerable air time for continually checking Craig Thomson for signs of stress. He is one of yours. Is he ready to switch sides like Turnbull? He has all the appearances of a heavy boozer.




Apparently he is not running in the next election.


----------



## DB008 (26 June 2012)

Julia said:


> I'm surprised no one has commented on the government chartering a 737 to fly ONE asylum seeker from Christmas Island to Perth after the capsizing.




http://www.news.com.au/national/entire-737-charted-to-move-just-one-asylum-seeker/story-e6frfkvr-1226408659569

Hmm, bit of a curly one.
How much would it cost to run a 737 for ~2 hours (1618miles)? 30k? 50k? 







Map Link


----------



## dutchie (26 June 2012)

Julia said:


> I'm surprised no one has commented on the government chartering a 737 to fly ONE asylum seeker from Christmas Island to Perth after the capsizing.




Whats the problem? The governments got plenty of money.


----------



## IFocus (26 June 2012)

Abbotts smirk about the asylum policy is interesting


From Crikey



> There are some words one is loathe to reach for in politics. Voters may not think it, but rare is the politician at the federal level who isn't there, even in this benighted age, because she or he genuinely wants to do good by Australia. They may be utterly confused, ignorant or lazily unaware about how to maximise the national interest, but they still pursue it. As a consequence, daring to pass moral judgment on politicians can be hazardous and unfair. One may charge them with cynicism or opportunism, yes, but that is more a judgment on their tactics than on their morality.
> 
> But, having paid close or not-so-close attention to federal politics since the early 1980s, I can't do anything but conclude that the Coalition's current stance on asylum seekers is the* clearest example of outright evil that I've ever seen from a political party at the federal level.*
> 
> As is clear to every other member of Parliament, it is clear to Coalition MPs that Australia's current de facto position on processing asylum seekers onshore isn't deterring people who otherwise face many years awaiting resettlement from getting in boats, and therefore risking their lives. People are dying as a consequence, in large numbers. But the Coalition has no interest in altering this position. Shadow immigration minister Scott Morrison showed that last night when he made clear on 7.30 that even if Labor embraced the Coalition's position entirely it wouldn't get agreement.


----------



## drsmith (26 June 2012)

DB008 said:


> http://www.news.com.au/national/entire-737-charted-to-move-just-one-asylum-seeker/story-e6frfkvr-1226408659569
> 
> Hmm, bit of a curly one.
> How much would it cost to run a 737 for ~2 hours (1618miles)? 30k? 50k?
> ...



In The West I think it stated $11k per hour.

I'm not sure whether that includes fuel and first class.


----------



## numbercruncher (26 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbotts smirk about the asylum policy is interesting
> From Crikey




Liberals should sack him and get a responsible leader ....


----------



## drsmith (26 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbotts smirk about the asylum policy is interesting
> 
> 
> From Crikey



He's too smart to end up with the same expression on his face as Andrew Wilkie did after doing a deal with Julia Gillard.

He knows dshe needs to be on her knees before he can deal. He needs to be flexible enough to consider compromise but even then, he still might not be able to trust her. 

Again, Andrew Wilkie comes to mind.


----------



## drsmith (26 June 2012)

numbercruncher said:


> Liberals should sack him and get a responsible leader ....



He's not a fool. See above.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2012)

I've got a trial sub with Crikey I'd like to keep it going but it's too left wing.


----------



## bellenuit (26 June 2012)

> Shadow immigration minister Scott Morrison showed that last night when he made clear on 7.30 that even if Labor embraced the Coalition's position entirely it wouldn't get agreement.




I don't quite get it. If the government were to embrace the coalition's position, what exactly has to pass through parliament?  Can they just get on with it?


----------



## StumpyPhantom (26 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> I don't quite get it. If the government were to embrace the coalition's position, what exactly has to pass through parliament?  Can they just get on with it?




Yep.  Nothing has to pass the Parliament.  The High Court, in the judgment which trashed the Malaysia Solution, said as much at paragraph 128:



> Two points may be made about this submission. First, it is by no means clear what use the Minister and the Commonwealth sought to make in the proper construction of the provision of what they asserted to be facts known to those who promoted the legislation. The facts asserted do not identify any mischief to which the provision was directed. Rather, it seemed that the facts were put forward as indicating what those who promoted the legislation hoped or intended might be achieved by it. But those hopes or intentions do not bear upon the curial determination of the question of construction of the legislative text[121]. *Second, even assuming them to be in some way relevant, the arrangements made with Nauru were very different from those that are now in issue. Not least is that so because Australia, not Nauru as the receiving country, was to provide or secure the provision of the assessment and other steps that had to be taken, as well as the maintenance in the meantime of those who claimed to be seeking protection. Thus it was Australia, not the receiving country, that was to provide the access and protections in question.* Further, although the arrangement between Australia and Nauru was recorded in a very short document, the better view of that document may be that it created obligations between the signatory states. But whether or not the arrangements with Nauru had the various features that have been identified, the question of statutory construction should be resolved in the manner indicated.




Here's the link:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2011/32.html

The way it happened at the hearing in the High Court is exactly the way it came up in the judgment.  The Commonwealth's argument, briefly was that "No one has invalidated Nauru as an illegal offshore processing centre, so you should let Gillard/Bowen have Malaysia as well.  This appears in paragraph 127:



> The Minister and the Commonwealth also submitted that the circumstances in which s 198A was enacted pointed against the adoption of this construction of the section. They submitted that s 198A was enacted with a view to declaring that Nauru is a country specified for the purposes of s 198A and that it was known, before the enactment of s 198A, that Nauru was not a signatory to the Refugees Convention or the Refugees Protocol.




Don't underestimate how bloody-minded this scorched-earth submission was.  If the Government couldn't get its way with the Malaysia Solution (which was the only issue before the Court), it was going to do its best to tear down Nauru as a future solution as well.  But it backfired spectacularly.

And the High Court's answer was, well it didn't matter that Nauru wasn't a signatory (at that time) to the Refugees Convention, because it was the Aussies who were running the detention centre and the processing, so the human rights were protected.  The Court was saying - that's why Nauru is LEGAL whereas the agreement struck up with Malaysia was explicitly stated to be 'non-binding' and ILLEGAL, as the Malaysians could do what they wanted once the hapless 800 arrived there, including send them home.  No guarantees, hence the Coalition condition that the Malaysians sign the Refugees Convention is a real and pragmatic one.

Since the days Nauru was used as an offshore processing centre, they have now signed up to the Refugees Convention, so sending them there would be even more legal now, if that was possible.  So no legislative amendment needed.  Gillard could pick up the phone to the Nauruan President, literally, and it would be done.

So it's Gillard's stubbornness.  It's not lack of knowledge, as she's a lawyer and this is pretty basic stuff.  She cannot swallow her pride and go back to Nauru without also having Malaysia in the mix to claim some of the credit for solving the problem (if it's solvable).  If it's not solvable, then Malaysia and Nauru are in the same failed boat as well, so to speak.


----------



## Julia (26 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbotts smirk about the asylum policy is interesting
> 
> 
> From Crikey





> But, having paid close or not-so-close attention to federal politics since the early 1980s, I can't do anything but conclude that the Coalition's current stance on asylum seekers is the clearest example of outright evil that I've ever seen from a political party at the federal level.



Of course.   Leave it to Crikey to manage to blame the Libs for the situation.  No matter that the Labor government dismantled a perfectly functional system.  It's still all Tony Abbott's fault.
Evil???  That's a bit ridiculous, even for the ultra left Crikey.




MrBurns said:


> I've got a trial sub with Crikey I'd like to keep it going but it's too left wing.



When it first started it was quite amusing.  Now it is absolutely a Left diatribe.



bellenuit said:


> I don't quite get it. If the government were to embrace the coalition's position, what exactly has to pass through parliament?  Can they just get on with it?



I think the sticking point is that the Coalition will only endorse the government's proposed legislation if the Malaysia Solution is dropped out, unless Malaysia becomes a signatory to the Human Rights Convention.
Since that is very unlikely, they are at an impasse.  The government in turn will not adopt the Coalition's policy unless it includes Malaysia.
So reassuring to know we are governed with such maturity and integrity.

Both sides are taking a position based purely on their own political best interests.  Any euphemistic murmurings about concern regarding loss of lives is insincerity personified.


----------



## numbercruncher (26 June 2012)

Pretty small numbers that we are dealing with in the scheme of it -



> Refugee crisis escalates: Afghanistan remains top source
> By Rose Gordon Sala *-* Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:09 AM EDT
> 
> The number of refugees that crossed border to flee their homes hit an 11-year high last year, the United Nations refugee agency reported Monday, June 18.
> ...


----------



## drsmith (26 June 2012)

> Shadow immigration minister Scott Morrison showed that last night when he made clear on 7.30 that even if Labor embraced the Coalition's position entirely it wouldn't get agreement.




What's clear from that interview is that the Coalition don't support the malaysian agreement in its present form. Beyond that, well, Leigh Sales it never really got beyond that, but Andrew Bolt and Steve Price did.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3532722.htm


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2012)

Labor might have managed a solution if they had not damaged relations with Indonesia after their knee jerk reaction with the live cattle trade, and Rudds ability to destroy partnerships through his grandstanding.


----------



## bellenuit (27 June 2012)

Another boat is sinking

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...christmas-island/story-fn9hm1gu-1226409942824

Rescue launched as new asylum-seeker boat carrying upt to 150 capsizes off Christmas Island

ONE week after up to 90 asylum-seekers perished, authorities are responding to another major disaster at sea with a rescuer confirming a second asylum boat carrying 150 people has capsized north of Christmas island.

One merchant vessel is on the scene attempting to rescue survivors and Defence boats and P3 surveillance planes are at least two hours away. 

The Australian Maritime Safety Authority confirmed to The Australian a capsized boat has been located 107 nautical miles north of Christmas Island.

A major rescue operation is now underway.

A spokeswoman for AMSA said survivors were clinging to the hull of the upturned boat.

The Australian Maritime Safety Authority confirmed to The Australian Defence and merchant vessels were sailing towards the site of the boat carrying up to 150 people, which is reported to be 107 nautical miles north of Christmas Island.

A spokeswoman for AMSA said the Australian Federal Police received a satellite phone call from somebody on the boat at 6.20am.

The spokeswoman said those aboard the boat claimed the vessel was in distress, however it is not known what the nature of the emergency was.

According to the report ''up to 150 people'' could be on board.

One merchant vessel is already on the scene, the AMSA spokeswoman said.

The vessel has reportedly sighted ''a number'' of boats in the vicinity, including fishing boats, but none that appear to be foundering.

Details were sketchy, but it appears authorities have yet to sight the vessel, nor is it clear how many were on board.

Unconfirmed reports off Christmas Island suggested the boat may have been taking on water. It is understood the boat was overloaded with Afghans.

The new arrival comes as signs emerged in Canberra of a possible breakthrough on the political impasse over asylum-seeker policy.

More than 40 MPs from all sides of politics have joined a cross-parliamentary group demanding a compromise solution to the nation's border protection crisis.

The growing cross-parliamentary group met today and will release a statement this afternoon.

The incident comes one week to the day after a boat carrying more than 200 people capsized 200 nautical miles north of Christmas Island on its way to Australia.

The tragedy, which claimed up to 90 lives, reignited the political debate over offshore processing, heaping pressure on both sides of politics to do a deal to restore some sort of deterrent.


----------



## sails (27 June 2012)

Shameful.  Labor/greens policy clearly isn't working.  They wanted onshore processing and, when it doesn't work, it's all Abbott's fault.

They deliberately broke the Pacific Solution that worked for political point scoring.  They need to fix it ASAP.


----------



## dutchie (27 June 2012)

We really do need an election, now!

This incompetence just can't go on.


----------



## MrBurns (27 June 2012)

This Govt not content with wasting $billions has now moved on to the the ultimate incompetance... wasting lives.

I wish Costello was in question time to take these bastards apart, the last couple of question times all I've seen is pathetic dorothy dixers to the wreckers and Madam Speaker giving Libs the call then immediately telling them to resume their seats.


----------



## Happy (27 June 2012)

I still believe that it is not our problem if somebody risks life for 
lifetime on social benefit in public housing.

Just for the portion of smuggling boat ticket price, buy air ticket and keep your papers with you
so you don't have to invent your name, age or origin, when asking for permanent residency.


----------



## dutchie (27 June 2012)

In 2003, as Shadow Minister for Immigration, *Julia Gillard commented *on illegal boat arrivals saying: *“Another boat, another policy failure.”
*

As Prime Minister some nine years later, Ms Gillard has failed to address the heinous trade in people trafficking from Indonesia with the latest tragedy unfolding off the coast of Christmas Island.


----------



## Julia (27 June 2012)

Happy said:


> I still believe that it is not our problem if somebody risks life for
> lifetime on social benefit in public housing.
> 
> Just for the portion of smuggling boat ticket price, buy air ticket and keep your papers with you
> so you don't have to invent your name, age or origin, when asking for permanent residency.



Seems so logical, doesn't it.  Why don't they do this?
We seem to be able to make available unlimited resources to those who  have made the choice to get on the boats
whilst not able to properly support so many of our own people who are in need.

What is this about?


----------



## noco (27 June 2012)

MrBurns said:


> This Govt not content with wasting $billions has now moved on to the the ultimate incompetance... wasting lives.
> 
> I wish Costello was in question time to take these bastards apart, the last couple of question times all I've seen is pathetic dorothy dixers to the wreckers and Madam Speaker giving Libs the call then immediately telling them to resume their seats.




Question time is so farcical now, I don't bother to watch it.


----------



## MrBurns (27 June 2012)

noco said:


> Question time is so farcical now, I don't bother to watch it.




It's a damn disgrace but I watch it anyway.


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2012)

This boat sank in Indonesian waters. Does that mean those rescued will be taken back to Indonesia? Apparently it carried the wives and children of the men on the boat that sank last week, also in Indonesian waters.


----------



## Happy (27 June 2012)

noco said:


> Question time is so farcical now, I don't bother to watch it.




Yes, tell me about it !

I don't have a folding knife, but it still opens in my pocket listening to this degrading crap.


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2012)

Happy said:


> I still believe that it is not our problem if somebody risks life for
> lifetime on social benefit in public housing.




We can shuck off our guilt feelings about this boat sinking. It was all a stunt.



> An asylum-seeker boat which sunk en route to Australia was sabotaged by those aboard the vessel, a senior official with Indonesia's search and rescue agency says.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...otaged-indonesia/story-fn3dxix6-1226410340392


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2012)

Surprise,surprise!



> Stopping the flow was, as Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said, the objective of every member of the House.
> 
> Well, he was wrong. The Deputy Leader of the Greens Adam Bandt, the MP for Melbourne, wasn’t interested in diverting the asylum seekers to third countries or making it harder for them to get residency here.




http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/no-greens-we-cant-wait-for-world-peace-to-stop-the-boats/


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

Well reading this Fairfax report, it would indicate Abbott has a better take on the issues than Gillard. It is a bit sketchy but his offer off increasing the intake as well as initiating a deterent policy, seems more coherent than labor. Who seem completely focused on Malaysia at all cost, even though it is a lost cause.
This is the whole problem with labor and still persists, where they will not change bad policy decisions, it is a legacy of their term in office. They will be remembered for being arrogant, unbending and immature.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-debate-asylum-compromise-20120627-2129x.html


----------



## IFocus (27 June 2012)

How did Howard get the Pacific solution through again?


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> How did Howard get the Pacific solution through again?




Wasn't it with the support of the party who threw it out?
You guessed it the ones with toes missing and black burn marks on their feet.


----------



## DB008 (27 June 2012)

*A True Leader would....???*

IMO, this is a classic situation where a true leader (can really) shine(s) and earns their bread+butter.

Being able to say, "Sorry, l made a mistake doing it my way, lets fix it even it means stepping back to the old way". Gillard is too arrogant to do this. She is not a leader. I will never vote for her.


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*

It's getting a bit fiesty in the old school yard.



> 7.22pm: Shadow treasurer Joe Hockey is beyond fury.
> 
> I will never vote for the Malaysia deal.
> 
> ...



We are now down to a 12-month susnet clause on the Malaysian deal proposed by, of all people, Andrew Wilkie.

My guess is that it will get up, but will be doomed in the Senate.

This is now a fight to the political death between Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott. My bet is on Tony Abbott if he can hold his troops together.

http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opi...olitics-live-june-27-2012-20120627-2118r.html


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*

Wilkie's sunset clause is up in the Reps and the Greens have panicked, voting for it even though they are going to vote against Oakshott's bill.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*



drsmith said:


> It's getting a bit fiesty in the old school yard.
> 
> 
> We are now down to a 12-month susnet clause on the Malaysian deal proposed by, of all people, Andrew Wilkie.
> ...




Well one thing this debate will do, it will show the left biased media that maybe Abbott isn't as thick as they try to make out. Also how shallow labor is when it is all about saving face rather than saving lives.IMO


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*



> The Opposition Leader earlier offered Lower House cross bench MPs to increase Australia's refugee intake to 20,000 a year to fend off a humiliating defeat. But parliament voted down the proposed amendments
> 
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/tra...es/story-e6frfkw9-1226410005101#ixzz1yzACcKd2




An increase in refugee numbers huh, flys in the face of what labor posters have been saying here


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*



moXJO said:


> An increase in refugee numbers huh, flys in the face of what labor posters have been saying here




Exactly this could throw a huge wedge in the minority government, could blow it to pieces. Abbott is putting forward humane policy while labor and Oakeshott can't get over Malaysia and their own egos.


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*



sptrawler said:


> Well one thing this debate will do, it will show the left biased media that maybe Abbott isn't as thick as they try to make out. Also how shallow labor is when it is all about saving face rather than saving lives.IMO



The Greens seem to be that first to have fallen off the cart.

They don't support the Malaysian solution yet support a sunset clause on it. Only a faint hope, but I wonder if Labor will now turn on them. I wouldn't put it past Julia Gillard.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*



drsmith said:


> The Greens seem to be that first to have fallen off the cart.
> 
> They don't support the Malaysian solution yet support a sunset clause on it. Only a faint hope, but I wonder if Labor will now turn on them. I wouldn't put it past Julia Gillard.




Obviously the greens are going to be standing in line, with toes missing and black feet alongside labor.

If that has happened Abbott will be all over them tommorrow. The reporters won't know what to say, they can't bash Abbott. LOL


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*



sptrawler said:


> Obviously the greens are going to be standing in line, with toes missing and black feet alongside labor.
> 
> If that has happened Abbott will be all over them tommorrow. The reporters won't know what to say, they can't bash Abbott. LOL




It's happened.



> 7.41pm: The Wilkie amendment has passed.
> 
> Now, the main event.
> 
> ...




http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opi...olitics-live-june-27-2012-20120627-2118r.html



> 7:56pm: The amended Oakeshott bill has passed through the Lower House. It will go to the Senate tomorrow.
> 
> *The Greens' Adam Bandt is voting with the Opposition, as promised.* Katter w Govt, also Wilkie, Windsor, Oakeshot (it's his bill after all)




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-...ess-off-christmas-island/4095566?WT.svl=news0

Bob Brown will be choking on his dinner.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

Jeez the Goon Show rolls on, what a bunch of dick witts.


----------



## dutchie (27 June 2012)

I watched Bob Katter speak and to me he looked like an blubbering idiot (it reminded me a lot of Joh)

I still can't make out what he was talking about or whether he was for or against?

Is it just me or what?


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2012)

The Coalition troops all managed to stay on one side although it was a close thing with Julie Bishop intervening to discourage Mal Washer from crossing the floor.



dutchie said:


> I watched Bob Katter speak and to me he looked like an blubbering idiot (it reminded me a lot of Joh)
> 
> I still can't make out what he was talking about or whether he was for or against?
> 
> Is it just me or what?



He voted for it.


----------



## Glen48 (27 June 2012)

Ya needta watch a lotsa  John Wayne movies pilgrim ,to understand what he is saying.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> I watched Bob Katter speak and to me he looked like an blubbering idiot (it reminded me a lot of Joh)
> 
> I still can't make out what he was talking about or whether he was for or against?
> 
> Is it just me or what?




Thankfully he aligned himself with the goon show, probably felt at home, last thing you need is a loose cannon.
This debate has only just begun, even if it gets up *again* it will be challenged again in the high court, it is all a bloody joke. 
One wonders what the motivation is, the boat people or the minority government trying to hang on to credibility? Maybe trying to hold off another failure untill the election, best of luck with that, everyones patience must be streched at the moment.


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez the Goon Show rolls on, what a bunch of dick witts.



At the end of the day, we've had the Greens contradict themselves on the Malaysian solution and a sunset clause that in itself creates a very obvious problem.

Politically, I suspect Tony Abbott won't be too unhappy with today's outcomes.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> At the end of the day, we've had the Greens contradict themselves on the Malaysian solution and a sunset clause that in itself creates a very obvious problem.
> 
> Politically, I suspect Tony Abbott won't be too unhappy with today's outcomes.




I don't think it will be a problem, Gillard and Wilkie trying to save their skins for 12 months on a sunset clause. If the greens sell their souls to go along with it, it will unravel like a badly wrapped nappy. Malaysia will take them to the cleaners, oops maybe I should say take us to the cleaners.


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2012)

He appeared to be quite drunk.


----------



## bellenuit (27 June 2012)

Could someone please provide a quick overview of what Wilkie's sunset clause and the Oakshott bill are.


----------



## Julia (27 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> We can shuck off our guilt feelings about this boat sinking. It was all a stunt.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...otaged-indonesia/story-fn3dxix6-1226410340392



Yes, it was similarly reported on ABC Radio news.  The same people smugglers who organised the capsized boat of a few days ago did likewise with this one.
What alerted anyone was the distress call made from the boat some hours before an aircraft was able to fly over and observe all the passengers sitting calmly on board, clad in their lifejackets, and the boat not at all in any trouble.

So it seems the plan is to put people on a boat, having taken their money, give them all the necessary instructions about how to contact emergency help, give that help sufficient time to arrive and save them, and then scuttle the boat.

Fantastic.



Calliope said:


> Surprise,surprise!
> http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/no-greens-we-cant-wait-for-world-peace-to-stop-the-boats/



This was exactly echoed in the 7.30 interview with Christine Milne.  She rigorously defended her nutty position, despite Leigh Sales repeatedly pointing out that what the Greens want is simply never going to be accepted by either or both of the major parties.  Quite a heated exchange.



drsmith said:


> The Greens seem to be that first to have fallen off the cart.
> 
> They don't support the Malaysian solution yet support a sunset clause on it. Only a faint hope, but I wonder if Labor will now turn on them. I wouldn't put it past Julia Gillard.



It's about the only way Ms Gillard can salvage any vestige of credibility.


----------



## Julia (27 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> Could someone please provide a quick overview of what Wilkie's sunset clause and the Oakshott bill are.





> THIS IS WHAT INDEPENDENT ROB OAKESHOTT'S BILL WOULD DO:
> 
> * Let the Federal Government send asylum seekers to countries that are part of the Bali Process, a grouping of more than 50 countries aligned against people smuggling.
> * This would allow both offshore processing in Malaysia and Nauru to go ahead.
> ...




Re Andrew Wilkie's sunset clause:  I'm not quite sure, but I think it means the legislation - if it passes - will have to be reconsidered in 12 months time.
Probably moot, as it's unlikely to get through the Senate.  The Greens are doing as they did with the original ETS legislation and saying "nothing is better than any amendment to what we want".  Entirely in character with their unrealistic stance in everything.

The government and the opposition could vote together in the Senate which would have the welcome effect of making the Greens irrelevant.   Hard to imagine this happening, at least at this stage.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Re Andrew Wilkie's sunset clause:  I'm not quite sure, but I think it means the legislation - if it passes - will have to be reconsidered in 12 months time.
> Probably moot, as it's unlikely to get through the Senate.  The Greens are doing as they did with the original ETS legislation and saying "nothing is better than any amendment to what we want".  Entirely in character with their unrealistic stance in everything.
> 
> The government and the opposition could vote together in the Senate which would have the welcome effect of making the Greens irrelevant.   Hard to imagine this happening, at least at this stage.




Spot on Julia, the sunset clause has been thrown in by Wilkie, to try and coerce the greens into voting for it. Thereby trying to give some credibility to a completly motly government, trying to justify absolutely atrocious policy making.


----------



## noco (27 June 2012)

What an unholy mess the Government have got themselves into and it all could have been avoided.

They are now like a dog trying to catch it's own tail. They just keep going around in circles and frustrating the whole system.

There will be no winners and no losers says Julia. Wishful thinking dear Julia. You have lost big time.


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2012)

> A ship carrying survivors is expected to go to Christmas Island. It will take about 12 hours to make the journey.




Why the hell is it going to Christmas island and not back to Indonesia? The boat was scuttled in the Indonesian Rescue Zone. Who makes these decisions?


----------



## drsmith (27 June 2012)

Julia said:


> The government and the opposition could vote together in the Senate which would have the welcome effect of making the Greens irrelevant.   Hard to imagine this happening, at least at this stage.



There is no way the Opposition will support this bill in the senate as it is, and neither they should.

It's better to force the Greens to openly show their true colours if they want to hold on to the power they currently enjoy.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...n-asylum-seekers/story-e6frf7kf-1226410127406


----------



## dutchie (28 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> It's better to force the Greens to openly show their true colours if they want to hold on to the power they currently enjoy.




I think the Greens have shown their colours - in the interviews I have seen them I have concluded that a vote for the Greens is a vote for someone that lives in Fairy Land.


----------



## MrBurns (28 June 2012)

Watched and listened to the debate yesterday for hours, it is very clear Gillard knows whats acceptable to the Libs and squirms to appear to compromise but doesn't.

All the Libs want is for people to be sent to countries that have signed the UN convention on Asylum seekers, no Australian would object to that but Gillard sidles up to that useless creep Oakeshott to offer a "compromise" which doesn't protect people any more than her original position.

It's clear - 

Gillard doesn't care about protecting women and children asylum seekers.
Gillard puts her own political agenda first.
Gillard knows the deal on the table will not get through the Senate.
Gillard will then try to blame the Libs for there being no deal in place.

All the talk about we must fix this is a show but she's not a very good actor, she only cares about winning.

Gillard is a contemptible, manipulating, calculating failure and a nasty piece of work to boot.


----------



## sptrawler (28 June 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Gillard is a contemptible, manipulating, calculating failure and a nasty piece of work to boot.




I don't understand why everyone questions Gina,s character and integrity. I would trust her over Gillard any day.


----------



## DB008 (28 June 2012)

Do illegal immigrants get Australian Citizenship or Permanent Residency?

Wouldn't keeping someone on permanent residency status (opposed to Citizenship) with mandatory deportation clauses if they are found to be involved in serious crime/criminal activities, drugs trade and acts of terrorism also act a back-up?


----------



## sptrawler (28 June 2012)

How dumb is Bowen, sugesting turning back the boats is the same as sending people to Malaysia.
Really just how dumb is he, the refugees were willingly in Indonesea to use it as a springboard to Australia. Turning them back there discourages them from going there in the first place.
How the hell he can compare that to, taking the people onto Australian soil, feeding and clothing them and shipping them off to a third country that has a poor track record on human rights, is beyond comprehension.
The guy is just looking like a goose and making a fool of himself by trying to blame Tony yet again.
I actually had a bit of time for Bowen, but it looks as though Gillard has slapped him into submission and he is rolling out her crazy diatribe. What a bunch of losers.


----------



## Calliope (28 June 2012)

What a sight. Sarah Hanson-Young cries crocodile tears in the senate.


----------



## dutchie (28 June 2012)

Watched a bit of the debate in the Senate this morning. They panned out at one stage and there were only about 5 senators in the chamber listening. Same happened yesterday in the Lower House.

What are we paying these politicians for?


----------



## Julia (28 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> What a sight. Sarah Hanson-Young cries crocodile tears in the senate.



They were probably as genuine as those Joe Hockey choked back when expressing his outrage about 13 year olds being sent to Malaysia.  Plenty of cant and hypocrisy to go round, it seems.

Much to do with politics and little to do with policy imo.


----------



## Miss Hale (28 June 2012)

Just heard Hanson-Young blubbering in the Senate.  Is anyone else getting fed up with all this crying that goes on these days? It seems to me just a cynical tactic to get people onside. Anyone on any side of the debate can cherry pick sob stories to support their case, what we need now is some strong policy and strong leadership to sort out the problem, we need our leaders to step away from individual stories and look at what is in the best interests for everybody as a whole.

Edited to add: I see from the previous posts others feel the same way.


----------



## Calliope (28 June 2012)

Julia said:


> They were probably as genuine as those Joe Hockey choked back when expressing his outrage about 13 year olds being sent to Malaysia.  Plenty of cant and hypocrisy to go round, it seems.
> 
> Much to do with politics and little to do with policy imo.




The dregs of Parliament conspire. Moylan , Hanson-Young, Brandt,  Wilkie,  Washer, Albanese.


----------



## sails (28 June 2012)

Calliope - Bolt has the same picture on his blog this morning with these comments:



> This is the boat that sank yesterday, causing the emergency debate on boat people laws. One person died, three are missing.
> 
> But wait.
> 
> ...








http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/that_is_not_a_sinking_boat/


----------



## joea (28 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> How dumb is Bowen,




I think most people would endorse the possibility that Bowen could determine who is as follows:

1 Are they an refugee?
2 Are they an illegal immigrant?
3 Are they an asylum seeker?

If a Muslim escapes from "where ever" because of religious or political persecution, and enters Indonesia
legally they are refugees living in Indonesia.
Now considering that Indonesia practice their faith they should be home.
But no, they want to destroy their papers, pay big money to jump on a boat and come to Australia where 
we practice Christian beliefs they do not want to have a bar of.

So in my mind they are "illegal immigrants" and should be treated accordingly.
It is not about (1, 2 or 3) in the minds of some of these people, it is about how they are rewarded financially 
in Australia, that is the draw card for them to come.
Gee 30 years ago I had a tee- shirt with "When the last Kiwi leaves NZ, will somebody turn off the lights."
printed across the front. 

The problem started with Kevin Rudd and continues to this day.
Chris Bowen is more intelligent than he is allowed to be by Julia Gillard.
Therefore he needs to be in a party where he can apply his beliefs to government.
If he cannot, or does not, then  I agree with SP that he is "dumb" on more than one account.

joea


----------



## sails (28 June 2012)

joea said:


> ...
> The problem started with Kevin Rudd and continues to this day....





Yes, it seems they thought they could do it better.  Their experiment has clearly not worked.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 June 2012)

Nick Xenaphon, the most respected parlimentary member in my opinion, said from his hospital bed that we can't have a perfect world and a compromise should be reached.
He pointedly mentioned the Greens in particular and I agree. 
Since when have lives rated above philosophy, particuarly since they will not have power next election.

...and I am sick of all these Parlimentarianms bursting into tears and yet towing the hard line.

Julia and I predicted this earlier in the thread ... and so it has come to pass.
Politics just keeps hitting new lows in this country.


----------



## Julia (28 June 2012)

joea said:


> Gee 30 years ago I had a tee- shirt with "When the last Kiwi leaves NZ, will somebody turn off the lights."
> printed across the front.



What on earth does that silly slogan have to do with the present situation?

I'm beyond irritated with all the bogus tears.  If they genuinely wanted a solution they could agree on it in an hour of sensible discussion.
All the weeping is as stupid and unproductive as the incessant bloody hugging that occurs every few minutes in the various reality TV programs.


----------



## Calliope (28 June 2012)

Senator Milne's amendment includes the clause;



> (iv) establish a multi-party committee, charged with developing a framework for a long-term regional solution which is underpinned by the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees and the related 1967 Protocol




By this she means a committee excluding the coalition, similar to the committee which adopted her Carbon Tax Bill.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...une-28-2012-20120628-213n6.html#ixzz1z3YEl4nP


----------



## DB008 (28 June 2012)

DB008 said:


> Do illegal immigrants get Australian Citizenship or Permanent Residency?
> 
> Wouldn't keeping someone on permanent residency status (opposed to Citizenship) with mandatory deportation clauses if they are found to be involved in serious crime/criminal activities, drugs trade and acts of terrorism also act a back-up?





Answered my own question.

Temporary Protection Visa (TPV)


> A Temporary Protection Visa (TPV) was an Australian visa document introduced by the Howard Government on 20 October 1999, which was issued to persons who had been recognised as refugees fleeing persecution. The scheme was controversial, with the government claiming it was a necessary response to the misuse of the asylum process by unauthorised arrivals. Refugee advocates described TPVs as a cruel way to treat people which left asylum seekers with an uncertain future.[1]
> The Temporary Protection Visa (TPV) was issued to persons who applied for refugee status after making an unauthorised arrival in Australia, and was the main type of visa issued to refugees when released from Australian immigration detention facilities. After being granted a TPV, refugees were required to reapply several years later, in case conditions changed in their homeland. TPV holders are only eligible for some of the special settlement services funded by the Commonwealth to assist new arrivals in Australia. Unlike Permanent visa (PV) holders, TPV recipients have no family reunion rights and no right to re-enter the country if they decide to depart Australia. TPV holders do have the right to work and have access to job matching by Centrelink. *They are also eligible for Special Benefit, Rent Assistance, Family Tax Benefit, Child Care Benefit, Medicare, Early Health Assessment and Intervention Program, torture and trauma counselling, and English as a Second Language classes (for TPV minors only).*
> 
> *The Rudd Government committed itself to the abolition of the TPV category as part of its Budget 2008-09 announcements made in May 2008.* The regulations providing for the granting of permanent protection visas (PPVs) to all refugees who have established a claim for protection in Australia were introduced into the federal Parliament in August 2008. From this time, any person who is applying in Australia for refugee protection will be granted a PPV. Individuals who were, as of August 2008, still on a TPV, became eligible to apply for a Resolution of Status Visa, which, should it be granted, is akin to a permanent protection visa. As for the TPV, the Resolution of Status Visa is granted subject to the TPV applicant undergoing health and ASIO/AFP security checks.




Wiki Link


----------



## MrBurns (28 June 2012)

It's now a competitiion to see who can stay on tele the longest and cry the most in the hope of getting a spot on the evening news.
Rob Oakeshott is taking notes and will in future try to work some tears into his speeches making them at least 20 minutes long.
Wayne Swan is bending Gillards arm to see if he can get a tear out of her, but there's only the usual hissing and striking.
If all these teary eyed parasites would just agree to send people where they have some protection then all would be ok.


----------



## joea (28 June 2012)

Julia said:


> What on earth does that silly slogan have to do with the present situation?




Julia
The Kiwi's invaded Australia and the majority went on the dole. The ones not on the dole play football.
Exactly what the illegal immigrants are doing right now.(invading Australia). We have not got any to wear
 tags yet. Oops. Tags are football boots.
IT WAS A JOKE!! It kept many Australians happy, in our town anyway. But in our town we have a sense of humor.
joea


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## dutchie (28 June 2012)

joea said:


> Julia
> The Kiwi's invaded Australia and the majority went on the dole. The ones not on the dole play football.
> Exactly what the illegal immigrants are doing right now.(invading Australia). We have not got any to wear
> tags yet. Oops. Tags are football boots.
> ...




Its often hard to tell when someone is making a joke or is being sarcastic on a forum as you don't have the benefit of facial expressions, voice tones etc.


----------



## dutchie (28 June 2012)

Let’s form a committee

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-ends-in-failure/story-fn9hm1gu-1226411438275

Wow finally some leadership! Pass the buck to a committee.

Obviously Gillard was setting up this committee over the last two days as she knew that her proposal (via Oakeshott) was never going to get through. How cynical and a waste of tax payers money for two days.

The reason for setting up this committee is twofold:

1. Gillard does not have the ability to be a Prime Minister so she has to use a proxy (committee).
2. Once the Committee returns its findings, which will be exactly the result she has instructed them to come up with, she will reintroduce the same policy and when the opposition again opposes it she will be able to say that the opposition won’t even listen to “experts”.

How stupid does she think we are?





It seems to me that the Malaysian Government has some sort of hold on Gillard. Why is she insisting on the Malaysian Deal? Is there a secret deal/commitment?


----------



## sptrawler (28 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> Let’s form a committee
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-ends-in-failure/story-fn9hm1gu-1226411438275
> 
> ...




You forgot reason number 3. Gillard doesn't want want to cancel the winter break of parliament, no that's more important than a few dare devils crossing the Indian ocean. Easier to form a commitee than call off your holiday.
The only other option was adopt Tony's policy, no a holiday sounds better.

It was interesting watching the news tonight, Tony actually got a bit of air time, which was most unusual.


----------



## Julia (28 June 2012)

joea said:


> Julia
> The Kiwi's invaded Australia and the majority went on the dole.



No New Zealanders have been eligible for the dole if they arrive in Australia for more than a decade.
Many came and made a very productive contribution to Australia.
It was a reciprocal arrangement.  If Australians wanted to freely move to NZ they could do so.
I'd like to see some statistics which demonstrate that 'the majority went on the dole'.

As someone who moved from NZ to Australia and who worked and paid taxes, plus giving hundreds of hours of voluntary service to the community, I'm a bit over the 'jokes' about New Zealanders.
To quote citizens from a country which is geographically and culturally very close to Australia in the same context as asylum seekers from Muslim countries half a world away is just odd to me.


----------



## Julia (28 June 2012)

Ms Gillard has appointed Angus Houston as a specialist adviser to herself and the parliament on asylum seekers.
Mr Houston is a retired soldier essentially.
Can anyone offer any reason why Mr Houston is an expert on the motivations of people smugglers and asylum seekers?

He may be eminently qualified.  I don't know.


----------



## sptrawler (28 June 2012)

Julia said:


> No New Zealanders have been eligible for the dole if they arrive in Australia for more than a decade.
> Many came and made a very productive contribution to Australia.
> It was a reciprocal arrangement.  If Australians wanted to freely move to NZ they could do so.
> I'd like to see some statistics which demonstrate that 'the majority went on the dole'.
> ...




I for one think Kiwis are brilliant, with such a small population they compete successfully on the world stage in most sports. They have a tourism industry second to none and a great work ethic, just go to mining towns, full of New Zealanders.
O.K back to the asylum seekers.


----------



## Julia (28 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> I for one think Kiwis are brilliant, with such a small population they compete successfully on the world stage in most sports. They have a tourism industry second to none and a great work ethic, just go to mining towns, full of New Zealanders.



Ah, bless you, sp.


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## sptrawler (28 June 2012)

I loved how the debate was all about the 'Oakeshott' bill, which in effect was a repeat of the labor Malaysian solution.
Poor old Rob must have been thrown a morsel to get him a bit of press, as he is probably going to be trashed in the next election.IMO
As soon as it was passed labor were all over it as the Malaysian solution, poor old Rob has made his bed, shame it's burning.LOL


----------



## noco (28 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Ms Gillard has appointed Angus Houston as a specialist adviser to herself and the parliament on asylum seekers.
> Mr Houston is a retired soldier essentially.
> Can anyone offer any reason why Mr Houston is an expert on the motivations of people smugglers and asylum seekers?
> 
> He may be eminently qualified.  I don't know.




To anyone Gillard appoints you can bet she will dangle a carrot in front of their nose.


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## drsmith (28 June 2012)

Agree with them or not, one thing to admire about Tony Abbott in this is that he has stuck to his principals.


----------



## Julia (28 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Agree with them or not, one thing to admire about Tony Abbott in this is that he has stuck to his principals.




Has he really stuck to principles or is he just being the archetypal politician, milking the political situation for everything he can?

Certainly the Libs are claiming they won't support Malaysia because it's 'inhumane' and it's not a signatory to the Refugee Convention.  But how does this line up with turning boats back, likely containing that 13 year old girl Joe Hockey was so tearfully on about, to Indonesia which is also not a signatory to the convention?

As long as the stalemate is maintained, the boats will keep coming and the government will as a result incur more and more public anger.
If a compromise between the two main parties (forget the Greens) is forged and the problem solved, the public soon forgets that Labor caused such a mess in the first place, and by the time the election occurs, your average voter won't remember what boats arrived when.

You may be right.  Mr Abbott may be the most principled politician in the parliament.
My money would be on a different conclusion.


----------



## sptrawler (28 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Agree with them or not, one thing to admire about Tony Abbott in this is that he has stuck to his principals.




That is the one thing australians gravitate to, stability, labor have put australia into a complete state of turmoil.
Abbott has played a blinder, while Turnbull and the rest have tried to find a way to bend to labors crap.
Abbott has stood firm with basic policy, which is easy to defend on ethical and political grounds.
The media will start and realise the Gillard stance is politicaly motivated one that is unsustainable, blind Freddy can see that.
Therefore the fall back position for the media is to gravitate to Abbott, otherwise they will lose circulation as the majority tire of their unfounded bias. IMO
I don't think the majority of voters are as thick as labor and the press make out.


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## drsmith (28 June 2012)

The past two days of nonsense on the Malaysia solution has been nothing more than a political stunt by Labor. They knew it would be defeated in the Senate. 

Like with Kevin Rudd's "greatest moral challenge of our time", they are now trying to walk away from the mess.



> Labor has indicated it could be willing to dump plans to send asylum seekers to Malaysia, after the Senate killed off legislation aimed at restoring offshore processing.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-28/oakeshott-asylum-bill-defeated-in-senate/4098842?WT.svl=news0

By contrast, Tony Abbott has been consistent as opposition leader. He's wise enough to realise it's not a good idea to volunteer the Coalition into sharing the blame for what would be another Labor disaster.


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## sptrawler (28 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Has he really stuck to principles or is he just being the archetypal politician, milking the political situation for everything he can?
> 
> Certainly the Libs are claiming they won't support Malaysia because it's 'inhumane' and it's not a signatory to the Refugee Convention.  But how does this line up with turning boats back, likely containing that 13 year old girl Joe Hockey was so tearfully on about, to Indonesia which is also not a signatory to the convention?




As I said in an earlier post, there is a difference between turning people back to from whence they came as opposed to sending them to a new destination.
They entered Indonesia of their own free will, to send them back isn't disadvataging them. Just emphasising the futility of going there in the first place.
It is completely different to taking them in and shipping them off to somewhere else. I'm a bit suprised with your take on it Julia, if you fail to see the difference, most of the electorate will.


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## drsmith (28 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> I don't think the majority of voters are as thick as labor and the press make out.



Watching Leigh Sales interview Chris Bowen on tonight's 7:30 report (ABC link above), look at the expression on Leigh's face near the end as Chris speaks (6:22) and Chris's expession at the end.

He knows he can't hide the stench no matter what he says.


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## drsmith (29 June 2012)

*Re: A True Leader would....???*



drsmith said:


> The Greens seem to be that first to have fallen off the cart.
> 
> They don't support the Malaysian solution yet support a sunset clause on it. Only a faint hope, but I wonder if Labor will now turn on them. I wouldn't put it past Julia Gillard.




A bit more hot air from Labor, or has a serious attack on the Greens begun ?



> The Greens proposal, Senator Rhiannon said, had "some very specific ways that we could come together to ensure (the) safety of refugees who so often take a very perilous trip when they decide to leave their country".
> 
> But Labor backbencher Doug Cameron launched a scathing attack on the party, declaring Australians were crying out for a solution to the political impasse over offshore processing that has continued despite two asylum-seeker vessels capsizing over the past week en route to Australia.
> 
> Quoting former prime minister Gough Whitlam, Senator Cameron said to the Greens: "Only the impotent are pure - you are pure, but you are flat-footed."






> Finance Minister Penny Wong also criticised the Greens' unwillingness to pass the legislation. Senator Wong said the Greens had offered "no practical response" to the crisis at hand.




Most likely a bit of hot air (Labor farting) under the covers. They've done that before. They still need each other's love to keep them in office.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nt-getting-nasty/story-fn9hm1gu-1226411561801


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## dutchie (29 June 2012)

The bottom line is:

Gillard does not have a clue - PM? Rubbish! "there will be no decisions or stopping of boats by the Government I lead"

The Greens live in fairy land and have no idea about the real world or the electorate.

Abbott has a solid plan to stop the boats which he will establish if and when he gets into power. 

The independents - Labor lackeys just following Gillard's disasters.


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## Knobby22 (29 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> As I said in an earlier post, there is a difference between turning people back to from whence they came as opposed to sending them to a new destination.
> They entered Indonesia of their own free will, to send them back isn't disadvataging them. Just emphasising the futility of going there in the first place.
> It is completely different to taking them in and shipping them off to somewhere else. I'm a bit suprised with your take on it Julia, if you fail to see the difference, most of the electorate will.




A flawed Malaysia deal would surely be better than losing more lives.

Abbott could say he would change it as soon as he was elected to a scheme of his choosing.

As with the Greens, they like Abbott can say they have not shifted and their "principles" are intact.

When the next boat sinks and children die, the politicians whether they be Green, Red or Blue can cry as much as they like but nothing will wipe the blood from their hands.  

I have nothing but disgust for them and all those who defend them.

Only Oakshott and Xenaphon will have clean consciousnesses.


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## MrBurns (29 June 2012)

I'm fed up with the media running the line "both sides of politics" are to blame.

All the Libs want is to send people where there is some protection, is that a big ask ?

Gilard wont agree because that would be a backdown and she blames Abbott ?????

What a farce, she wasted a whole day yesterday putting a proposition to the Senate she KNEW wouldn't pass just so she could try to lay blame on Abbott, then form another committee.

The Libs are right not to agree to Malaysia, sending kids to a country where there is no protection in place is not on.

Gillard and her muppets are beyond contempt.


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## Knobby22 (29 June 2012)

MrBurns said:


> The Libs are right not to agree to Malaysia, sending kids to a country where there is no protection in place is not on.




The "high moral ground" looks like an ivory tower from a child's watery grave.


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## sptrawler (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> The "high moral ground" looks like an ivory tower from a child's watery grave.




Again the discussion is all about Abbotts position, if his stance is wrong does it follow that you think Gillards position is correct? I am sure if it was discovered that the refugees that were sent to Malaysia were being treated inhumanely, you would be jumping up and down about that as well. The changes that Abbott is asking for arn't detrimental, if he was taking Gillards position and Gillard his, everyone would be screaming blue murder.
I get the lmpression this has become a game of trying to get Abbott to do a back flip, well best of luck with that. History is showing that it is likely his will be the correct decission. As has been mentioned, he is comming over as a more controled and measured leader than Gillard.
It will be interesting to see how the opinion polls go.


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## sptrawler (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> A flawed Malaysia deal would surely be better than losing more lives.




That is unless you are one of the chosen ones to go. I am sure the refugees would rather be sent to an Australian run facility, than Malaysia.
Oh but I forgot Knobby, it's not about them its about the goon show saving face, talk about shallow.

On one hand your saying show compassion to these poor refugees, taking a dangerous trip.
Then in the next breath your saying who gives a rats ar$e where you send them.

What does Gillard say to you people " look into my eyes, look into my eyes you will believe any crap I speak"
Jeez give me a break.

You talk about morals, I'm yet to see any shining through from the labor bench.


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## Calliope (29 June 2012)

sptrawler said:


> As I said in an earlier post, there is a difference between turning people back to from whence they came as opposed to sending them to a new destination.
> They entered Indonesia of their own free will, to send them back isn't disadvataging them. Just emphasising the futility of going there in the first place.
> It is completely different to taking them in and shipping them off to somewhere else. I'm a bit suprised with your take on it Julia, if you fail to see the difference, most of the electorate will.




I agree sptrawler. One thing that is often overlooked is that the boat people who embark from Indonesia are almost 100% Muslims, and Indonesia is a Muslim country. Naturally the illegals would feel more at home living among their own kind than living in an infidel country like Australia.

The big difference is that in Australia they would get all the security that our welfare state would throw at them. In Indonesia they would be free loaders. However these people are not poor people they are well funded and they can afford $10,000 apiece to pay people smugglers. By Indonesian standards these people are rich. They say they are fleeing from persecution. Okay - then they have found safe haven in Indonesia.


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## dutchie (29 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> The big difference is that in Australia they would get all the security that our welfare state would throw at them. In Indonesia they would be free loaders. However these people are not poor people they are well funded and they can afford $10,000 apiece to pay people smugglers. By Indonesian standards these people are rich. They say they are fleeing from persecution. Okay - then they have found safe haven in Indonesia.




That makes common sense. But for the PM vanity trumps common sense.


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## sptrawler (29 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> I agree sptrawler. One thing that is often overlooked is that the boat people who embark from Indonesia are almost 100% Muslims, and Indonesia is a Muslim country. Naturally the illegals would feel more at home living among their own kind than living in an infidel country like Australia.
> 
> The big difference is that in Australia they would get all the security that our welfare state would throw at them. In Indonesia they would be free loaders. However these people are not poor people they are well funded and they can afford $10,000 apiece to pay people smugglers. By Indonesian standards these people are rich. They say they are fleeing from persecution. Okay - then they have found safe haven in Indonesia.




Oh my god Calliope, what you are saying makes sense, it would appear that is the last thing labor want to hear.
As per usual Gillard is going "it's my way or the highway" despite her abysmal track record. Talk about a complete lack of self appraisal, you would think someone near her would give her a reality check.
Oh no I forgot she has most of them pi$$ing in their pants, have a look at poor old Bowen. What a carry on, bring on the election.


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## MrBurns (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> The "high moral ground" looks like an ivory tower from a child's watery grave.




High moral ground ? Wrong terminology, this is nothing about high moral ground.
How about protecting women and children ?

Gillard is a murderer that's all there is to it.
She is beyond contempt, even now she'll be calculating her next move to save herself.
Children drowning meh, just collateral damage to her.


----------



## noco (29 June 2012)

The whole problem is Gillard just can't put her pride aside and accept Nauru and TPVs which she knows damn well will work.

I am also of the opinion she set Oakshot up with his private members bill, which was almost identical to hers, knowing full well it would not pass the senate so it relieves her of 'WELL IT WAS NOT MY IDEA'.

The other thing that concerns me is she has hand picked and appointed a panel of three dignitarys on the same day the bill was rejected in the senate, something I believe this cunning woman had planned well before the bill even went into the lower house. I do not know what colour these panelist are but one can only guess they will be close to the same colour as Gillard  and she will no doubt be influencial on them favoring  the Malayasia deal. Gillard is determined to win one way or another over Abbott. I do not trust her modus operandi.

However, if the panel does recommend Malayasia  it still has to go through the lower house and the senate and will most likely be rejected again.


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> A flawed Malaysia deal would surely be better than losing more lives.



The flaws of limitation in both overall number and distinction between child and adult means it won't be effective in stopping the boats.

Andrew Wilkie's 12-month limitation would also impact negatively on it's effectiveness in stopping the boats.


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## dutchie (29 June 2012)

The only recommendation the two (or is it three) "experts", whom are completely impartial of course, that will make any difference is onshore processing.

(Without onshore processing "the fairy land dwellers" will knock back any other legislation and we are back where we started)

Onshore processing will of course appease the "fairy land dwellers" , (who will again be running the country) and pass the new legislation that "the person that is the current leader of the Labor party" will have to offer to parliament.  

So if she accepts onshore processing now, why didn't she do that in the first place and save us two days of "debate", save us the expense of parliament doing nothing for two days, save us the expense of setting up another useless committee and enable all those hard working politicians go on on their trips with a clear head.


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## noco (29 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> I agree sptrawler. One thing that is often overlooked is that the boat people who embark from Indonesia are almost 100% Muslims, and Indonesia is a Muslim country. Naturally the illegals would feel more at home living among their own kind than living in an infidel country like Australia.
> 
> The big difference is that in Australia they would get all the security that our welfare state would throw at them. In Indonesia they would be free loaders. However these people are not poor people they are well funded and they can afford $10,000 apiece to pay people smugglers. By Indonesian standards these people are rich. They say they are fleeing from persecution. Okay - then they have found safe haven in Indonesia.




Calliope, it is heartening to read your assessment that most of the boat people are almost 100% Muslim.

It strenghtens the thought that has been in the back of my mind for some time that perhaps Indonesia, being an overcrowded Muslim country bursting at the seams, is behind the influx of muslim boat people into Australia. Is Indonesia sowing the seeds to become a dominant factor in Australia?


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> The flaws of limitation in both overall number and distinction between child and adult means it won't be effective in stopping the boats.




*The whole concept could not be put into practice*. Can you imagine the outcry from the do-gooders when the pictures of these illegals, showing them being forcibly loaded on a plane to take them from a paradise like Christmas Island to a hell-hole in Malaysia, were shown around the world.

They didn't pay $10,000 to go to Malaysia. They will only go kicking and screaming. It won't happen. Knobby's "flawed Malaysian deal" has more flaws than is prepared to concede. 

The biggest flaw is that Labor hasn't the guts to enforce it. So the big debate was "much ado about nothing."


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2012)

If I was Abbott, I would think what would  Menzies, Churchill do?

In my opinion, they would do something Prime Ministerial like offer a completely new option and then soften it with giving up some ground to Labor. They would show pity to the other party and do something for the greater good.

Abbot could then look Prime Ministerial, while making Labor look petty at the same time. He could really make the Greens look pathetic with the right attitude.

Tony Abbott needs to look at this from another angle. He needs to show some greatness because, otherwise lets face it, he will share in the mud and blood game when the next boat sinks.

He has the chance to rise above it all. That is my political view. 
If he doesn't then he is another politician like Julia, not really up to the job.

I hold Labor, Greens and the LIbs in comtempt. Some of you arguing that Julia deserves more contempt, doesn't stop the contempt being derserved for the Libs. I am sick of sychophants.


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> In my opinion, they would do something Prime Ministerial like offer a completely new option and then soften it with giving up some ground to Labor. They would show pity to the other party and do something for the greater good.



Pity ??

There's no pity in politics. Just ask Julia Gillard. 

On second thought, ask Kevin Rudd. You might have a better chance of getting an honest answer.

What new option did you have in mind ?


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2012)

> Independent MP Andrew Wilkie says MPs who start a six-week recess today should have continued sitting until they were able to break the political impasse over refugee policy.
> 
> The House of Representatives sat until 4:19am, following a "last ditch" effort by Mr Wilkie to bring on debate on the Opposition's bill to allow offshore processing of asylum seekers in countries that have ratified the United Nations' refugee convention.



What a goose. 

Andrew Wilkie should have realised that his 12-month restriction on the Malaysia solution would not get it past the Coalition in the Senate.

He probably did and this was just a publicity stunt.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-29/panel-formed-to-break-asylum-deadlock/4099468


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> Tony Abbott needs to look at this from another angle. He needs to show some greatness because, otherwise lets face it, he will share in the mud and blood game when the next boat sinks.
> 
> He has the chance to rise above it all. That is my political view.
> If he doesn't then he is another politician like Julia, not really up to the job.




Okay. Then in your "political view" *what should Abbott do?* What is your recipe for Abbott "to show some greatness" If you do have the solution, you should get in touch with Gillard's "independent key experts." I don't think the Green's policy (and yours I suspect) of onshore processing would be accepted by the electorate.


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2012)

Three more boats under this government's watch.



> Overnight and this morning, as MPs prepared to leave Canberra, three new asylum-seeker boats arrived at Christmas Island, continuing the flow that now looks set to continue.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...shore-processing/story-fn9hm1gu-1226411969138


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## dutchie (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> If I was Abbott, I would think what would  Menzies, Churchill do?
> 
> In my opinion, they would do something Prime Ministerial like offer a completely new option and then soften it with giving up some ground to Labor. They would show pity to the other party and do something for the greater good.
> 
> Abbot could then look Prime Ministerial, while making Labor look petty at the same time. He could really make the Greens look pathetic with the right attitude.




I agree with the above. Any suggestions on a better option?


----------



## bellenuit (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> A flawed Malaysia deal would surely be better than losing more lives.
> 
> Abbott could say he would change it as soon as he was elected to a scheme of his choosing.
> 
> ...




I think that is the position Abbott should have taken from the start.  He should have said that he will pass the legislation, but vehemently oppose the Malaysian option (which as I understand is only enabled by the legislation but not specified as the only option). At the time the Labor party was split down the middle on the Malaysian issue and putting the legislation to parliament could have exposed huge rifts within the party as well as putting the Greens offside. The Malaysian option would soon be dropped as hundreds of refugees are seeing being forcefully put on to planes to fly to Malaysia, plus you would have worldwide condemnation.

The problem now is that rightly or wrongly some of the blame for the intervening drownings have rubbed off on Abbott. If he were now to relent and the Malaysian solution were to work, the blame would flow entirely to Abbott. Gillard is also in the same position. She cannot accept Nauru because if it did work a second time, she would have to take full responsibility for the deaths that happened. 

The stakes are now too high for either to concede.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> I agree with the above. Any suggestions on a better option?




I have a better option. I would go along with the Malaysia plan on the basis that we swap *one* illegal for *four* genuine Burmese refugee - not one for eight, and with no limit. The only snag of course would be to get the illegals on the plane without offending the sensibilities of the Mal Washers. 

Unlike the sanctimonious Abbott and Hockey I couldn't give a fig about the treatment of the illegals by their fellow Muslims in Malaysia. It certainly would be better than the treatment being handed out to the Burmese,* who are actually fleeing from persecution.*

Unlike the bawling hypocrites in parliament who worry about the plight of the illegals, the plight of the Burmese refugees makes their concerns pale into insignificance.


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> The problem now is that rightly or wrongly some of the blame for the intervening drownings have rubbed off on Abbott. If he were now to relent and the Malaysian solution were to work, the blame would flow entirely to Abbott.



At a political level, the problem with that is that the malaysian solution would not have worked. The best it would have done is to have slowed the boats for a period perhaps only delaying the current outcome a little. Tony Abbott would have then been in a worse position than he is now as he would have supported the legislation that enabled Malaysia.

Whether or not Labor would have fallen apart when Julia Gillard was going to have the original vote is another matter. Perhaps Tony Abbott thought this wasn't likely to happen. It was certianly less likely when Labor weakened on children.

No one smells sweet out of all this, but Labor is still in a far worse stench than the Coalition.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> I think that is the position Abbott should have taken from the start.  He should have said that he will pass the legislation, but vehemently oppose the Malaysian option (which as I understand is only enabled by the legislation but not specified as the only option). At the time the Labor party was split down the middle on the Malaysian issue and putting the legislation to parliament could have exposed huge rifts within the party as well as putting the Greens offside. The Malaysian option would soon be dropped as hundreds of refugees are seeing being forcefully put on to planes to fly to Malaysia, plus you would have worldwide condemnation.
> 
> The problem now is that rightly or wrongly some of the blame for the intervening drownings have rubbed off on Abbott. If he were now to relent and the Malaysian solution were to work, the blame would flow entirely to Abbott. Gillard is also in the same position. She cannot accept Nauru because if it did work a second time, she would have to take full responsibility for the deaths that happened.
> 
> The stakes are now too high for either to concede.




I agree but he could still come out looking better.

I don't reckon they will get the Malaysian offer to fly anyway without a lot of problems. The Malaysian opposition is against it and if anything goes wrong during the swap, heaps of mud will land on Gillard.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> I have a better option. I would go along with the Malaysia plan on the basis that we swap *one* illegal for *four* genuine Burmese refugee - not one for eight, and with no limit. The only snag of course would be to get the illegals on the plane without offending the sensibilities of the Mal Washers.
> 
> Unlike the sanctimonious Abbott and Hockey I couldn't give a fig about the treatment of the illegals by their fellow Muslims in Malaysia. It certainly would be better than the treatment being handed out to the Burmese,* who are actually fleeing from persecution.*
> 
> Unlike the bawling hypocrites in parliament who worry about the plight of the illegals, the plight of the Burmese refugees makes their concerns pale into insignificance.




Good suggestion. Good for the Libs also.


----------



## Julia (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> I hold Labor, Greens and the LIbs in comtempt. Some of you arguing that Julia deserves more contempt, doesn't stop the contempt being derserved for the Libs. I am sick of sychophants.



Agree.   There seems to be a sense that if one is disgusted by the government then one must ipso facto be entirely supportive of everything put forward by the Opposition.   For me, at least, it's just not so.



Calliope said:


> I have a better option. I would go along with the Malaysia plan on the basis that we swap *one* illegal for *four* genuine Burmese refugee - not one for eight, and with no limit. The only snag of course would be to get the illegals on the plane without offending the sensibilities of the Mal Washers.
> 
> Unlike the sanctimonious Abbott and Hockey I couldn't give a fig about the treatment of the illegals by their fellow Muslims in Malaysia. It certainly would be better than the treatment being handed out to the Burmese,* who are actually fleeing from persecution.*
> 
> Unlike the bawling hypocrites in parliament who worry about the plight of the illegals, the plight of the Burmese refugees makes their concerns pale into insignificance.



+1.   Great suggestion.  
But as you say, the forcing of people onto a plane to Malaysia is the problem.  A gift to the Greens.


----------



## noco (29 June 2012)

I say to hell with Labor, the Greens and Gillards hand picked panel, take us to an election with the Malayasian deal on her platform and let the people of Australia decide and include the carbon dioxide tax at the same time.

If the Governor General had any fortitude left in her she should desolve parliament and let it happen but of course being Bill's mother-in-law it 'ain't gnna' happen.


----------



## dutchie (29 June 2012)

Abbott has stated he will not change his policy because his party has already got one, irrespective of what the three amigos come up with.

So are the taxpayers paying for a committee to develop a Labor Party policy? It would appear that the Labor Party is bereft of ideas for a policy.

The committee will therefore only be able to come up with a policy of onshore processing.


----------



## IFocus (29 June 2012)

drsmith said:


> Agree with them or not, one thing to admire about Tony Abbott in this is that he has stuck to his principals.




Abbott has principles? 

Since when?


----------



## IFocus (29 June 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> If I was Abbott, I would think what would  Menzies, Churchill do?
> 
> In my opinion, they would do something Prime Ministerial like offer a completely new option and then soften it with giving up some ground to Labor. They would show pity to the other party and do something for the greater good.
> 
> ...




Menzies would'nt get a start on Abbotts front bench he would be classed these days as to far to the left.


----------



## MrBurns (29 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> Abbott has stated he will not change his policy because his party has already got one, irrespective of what the three amigos come up with.
> 
> So are the taxpayers paying for a committee to develop a Labor Party policy? It would appear that the Labor Party is bereft of ideas for a policy.
> 
> The committee will therefore only be able to come up with a policy of onshore processing.




The Committee is just another waste of time and money while Gillard prepares to protect her position once again.

The Libs couldnt make it any plainer, they will only agree to sending people where the UN Convention on asylum seekers has been signed.......soooo she forms a committee


----------



## Miss Hale (29 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbott has principles?
> 
> Since when?




Since forever.


----------



## IFocus (29 June 2012)

Miss Hale said:


> Since forever.




Scripted or unscripted?


----------



## noco (29 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbott has principles?
> 
> Since when?




Come on now IFocus, tell me what principles has Gillard got? 

NONE!!!!!!!!

ZILCH!!!!!!!!!

ZERO!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bellenuit (29 June 2012)

Calliope said:


> I have a better option. I would go along with the Malaysia plan on the basis that we swap *one* illegal for *four* genuine Burmese refugee - not one for eight, and with no limit. The only snag of course would be to get the illegals on the plane without offending the sensibilities of the Mal Washers.
> 
> Unlike the sanctimonious Abbott and Hockey I couldn't give a fig about the treatment of the illegals by their fellow Muslims in Malaysia. It certainly would be better than the treatment being handed out to the Burmese,* who are actually fleeing from persecution.*
> 
> Unlike the bawling hypocrites in parliament who worry about the plight of the illegals, the plight of the Burmese refugees makes their concerns pale into insignificance.




I agree that would be a good deal, but unfortunately the Libs have been too resolute that they could not now support any option that involves Malaysia.

One of the positives I saw in the Malaysia deal was that we would be getting predominantly Buddhists instead of Muslims, even if the numbers are greater. I think Buddhists are more likely to blend into Australian society than Muslims, who seem to integrate less and demand more the bigger their percentage.

However, I also believe the Malaysian agreement had Malaysia deciding who would be sent to Australia, so we could also end up with the most troublesome of the refugees. I think we should also ensure that we decide who comes.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2012)

> The opposition remained opposed to the Malaysian option, arguing that it lacked human rights safeguards




What crock of sh*t.  As I said previously, the human rights of a bunch of pampered boat people, pales into insignificance compared to the non-existent human rights of the Burmese refugees. Whatever we can do to reduce their suffering may not amount to much, given the numbers involved, but we would be callous to let the opportunity pass. And these people, like the Chinese and Vietnamese would blend in well, unlike the Muslims. Most of them are Christians or Buddhists. 

What surprises me, is that during all the gabfest yesterday this aspect was not brought up by Labor. To me it would seem to be the main selling point.


----------



## sptrawler (29 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbott has principles?
> 
> Since when?




You're starting to snipe, Ifocus, unlike you. However I can sympathise with your frustration.
Julias not giving you much to work with.


----------



## IFocus (29 June 2012)

Nice to see thread participants happy for people to drown as long as its a Labor problem!

Its actually an Australian problem.............isn't it?

Its been spelt out in clear terms why Nauru and TPV wont work this is the Coalition current policy isn't it?

Why do people keep saying that the Coalition has a policy that works when clearly thats a crock of ........?


Again how did Howard get his original policy through the senate since he didn't have the numbers?


----------



## JTLP (29 June 2012)

Let's be honest - I don't think it hits people that hard at all that illegals are dying at sea. This crying is just crap (it's been said numerous times) and nobody really cares about the people - it's their political survival. This sounds harsh but when it all boils down - we don't know them/we don't know what's really happened/death surrounds us everyday - it's just another thing in the world. Why aren't we crying for children starving in Africa? Persecution of the Burmese? The list goes on. The fact that they scuttle their own boats doesn't garner a lot of sympathy at all.

They shoot themselves in the foot when they riot at detention centres as well - what spoilt, ungrateful leeches - destroying the very property and land they so desperately seek to live on. The added bonus of this is we get psychiatrist's who say "they are just portraying the violence shown to them in their native land". Cut me a break - they want to do things like that? Put them back on a boat and push it across the Indian ocean somewhere else. 

These boats will continually flood through - bypassing all the other countries on the way to get to the big soft Australia. You have to know that Australia is that good when these Muslim countries are A LOT closer to the EU. 

Not only will the public knock the Labor government out with the Carbon Tax - they'll put their feet on the throat of the inept PM for putting Australia in such a perilous position.


----------



## noco (29 June 2012)

I can well imagine if Abbott relented and agreed to Labor's Malaysian deal and it all went 'belly up', I can hear Gillard screaming form the roof tops, "well the coalition agreed to it, don't blame me".


----------



## Julia (29 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> I agree that would be a good deal, but unfortunately the Libs have been too resolute that they could not now support any option that involves Malaysia.



Yes, being vehement about anything limits your ultimate options.  Mr Abbott needs to remember that he will require the co-operation and compromise of others to get all his policies through when he is elected.
Absolute faith is being placed in a double dissolution election.  This brings no guarantee of balance of power in the Senate.  On the contrary, the Greens' standing in the polls is steady or increasing.
They will, in this present circumstance, be seen by many not rusted on to either of the two main parties as unquestioningly principled, as distinct from the clear political motives of Labor and the Opposition.



> One of the positives I saw in the Malaysia deal was that we would be getting predominantly Buddhists instead of Muslims, even if the numbers are greater. I think Buddhists are more likely to blend into Australian society than Muslims, who seem to integrate less and demand more the bigger their percentage.



Agree absolutely.  I'm sure that, if the current influx of people on boats were e.g. Buddhists rather than Muslims, the electorate overall would be much more sympathetic.



> However, I also believe the Malaysian agreement had Malaysia deciding who would be sent to Australia, so we could also end up with the most troublesome of the refugees. I think we should also ensure that we decide who comes.



Good point.  Malaysia would hold the whip hand in the deal were it to go ahead.  They have no reason to act in the best interests of Australia.  



Calliope said:


> As I said previously, the human rights of a bunch of pampered boat people, pales into insignificance compared to the non-existent human rights of the Burmese refugees. Whatever we can do to reduce their suffering may not amount to much, given the numbers involved, but we would be callous to let the opportunity pass. And these people, like the Chinese and Vietnamese would blend in well, unlike the Muslims. Most of them are Christians or Buddhists.



Agree.  The Chinese in particular have a great work ethic and a clear willingness to adopt the Australian culture.



> What surprises me, is that during all the gabfest yesterday this aspect was not brought up by Labor. To me it would seem to be the main selling point.



Ah, but it would be horribly politically incorrect to even suggest any anti Muslim notion.


----------



## startrader (29 June 2012)

JTLP said:


> Let's be honest - I don't think it hits people that hard at all that illegals are dying at sea. This crying is just crap (it's been said numerous times) and nobody really cares about the people - it's their political survival. This sounds harsh but when it all boils down - we don't know them/we don't know what's really happened/death surrounds us everyday - it's just another thing in the world. Why aren't we crying for children starving in Africa? Persecution of the Burmese? The list goes on. The fact that they scuttle their own boats doesn't garner a lot of sympathy at all.
> 
> They shoot themselves in the foot when they riot at detention centres as well - what spoilt, ungrateful leeches - destroying the very property and land they so desperately seek to live on. The added bonus of this is we get psychiatrist's who say "they are just portraying the violence shown to them in their native land". Cut me a break - they want to do things like that? Put them back on a boat and push it across the Indian ocean somewhere else.
> 
> ...





Well said!


----------



## sails (29 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Nice to see thread participants happy for people to drown as long as its a Labor problem!
> 
> Its actually an Australian problem.............isn't it?
> 
> ...





IF, Australia had a solution that I understand was introduced by the Libs with bipartisan agreement from Labor.  Why on earth Labor decided they wanted to reneg on their bipartisan support for something that was so clearly working is beyond me.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  The Pacific Solution clearly worked.  Here is a link to the official boat arrivals web site - although since 2008 they are not sure of the numbers - sounds a bit like a cop out to me...lol 

But anyway, in 2001 there were over 5516 arrivals.  The Pacific Solution was introduced and 1 person arrived in 2002.  Says it all really.

In one breath, Bowen said this in 2008:



> 'The Pacific solution was a cynical, costly and ultimately unsuccessful exercise introduced on the eve of a Federal election by the Howard Government.'




and in the next he said this - note how cheaply the Pacific Solution ran in comparison to the billions being spent  now with labor/green's policy failure (bold is mine):



> The Department of Immigration and Citizenship expended *$289 million* between September 2001 and June 2007 to run the Nauru and Manus OPCs.




Read more from Bowen:
http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/media-releases/2008/ce08014.htm


Boat Arrival web page: http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam.../pubs/BN/2011-2012/BoatArrivals#_Toc285178607


----------



## sails (29 June 2012)

*FOUR* more boats today apparently:



> UPDATE 11.50am: Three asylum seeker vessels have either arrived at Christmas Island or been intercepted since politicians yesterday failed to strike a deal that could stop the flow of boats.
> 
> And there are unconfirmed reports from Christmas Island that a fourth boat may have arrived.




Read more: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/14080860/stalemate-in-bid-to-stop-boats/

Gillard knows what she has to work with between greens and the libs and she seems incapable of coming to a decision.  She is the PM.  Unbelievable.


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> I agree that would be a good deal, but unfortunately the Libs have been too resolute that they could not now support any option that involves Malaysia.
> 
> One of the positives I saw in the Malaysia deal was that we would be getting predominantly Buddhists instead of Muslims, even if the numbers are greater. I think Buddhists are more likely to blend into Australian society than Muslims, who seem to integrate less and demand more the bigger their percentage.
> 
> However, I also believe the Malaysian agreement had Malaysia deciding who would be sent to Australia, so we could also end up with the most troublesome of the refugees. I think we should also ensure that we decide who comes.




Good points bellenuit, ones I hadn't considered. 
As to the last one, historicaly Malaysia and Australia haven't had a close relationship. One does wonder if they would have our best interest at heart.


----------



## noco (30 June 2012)

Why has Rudd been so silent on this recent debate on asylum seekers? The answer lies below.

The asylum seekers are keeping a close eye on events in Australia and are waiting for the door to be slamed shut.

Gillard can saction the opening of Nauru tomorrow instead of more enquires, panels and waiting 6 weeks for parliament to sit. She will never be a leader so long as she has breath in her body.

Call an election and let the people decide what is in the bets interest of this nation of ours.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...udd-broke-system/story-e6frg75f-1226412739529


----------



## Calliope (30 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> However, I also believe the Malaysian agreement had Malaysia deciding who would be sent to Australia, so we could also end up with the most troublesome of the refugees. I think we should also ensure that we decide who comes.




I think that one troublesome Iraqi, Iranian or Afghan Muslim could cause more trouble than a dozen legitimate refugees, who for a start would never try to change our laws to suit them, and they are fleeing terrorism, not instigating it. And also, people the Malaysian Government regard as troublesome varies significantly from what we regard as troublesome.

Remember;  Not all Muslims are terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslims.


----------



## drsmith (30 June 2012)

Paul Kelly's take.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...people-still-die/story-e6frg74x-1226412709553

One thing Paul Kelly does not cover in the above is the shortcomings of the Malaysion solution. He's right though about the brutality of the politics on this, but that's the case from both sides. Let's not forget that Labor late last year moved closer to the Greens policy position on this therefore encouraging more boats.



> Gillard ran with the Oakeshott bill this week and has a beachhead to continue her campaign for a new policy. Abbott's tactics are brutal yet effective. The only risk is that opinion might turn; he might be seen as unreasonable or the cause of the problem. *Yet that assumes Gillard has powers of persuasion and political capital to burn. She doesn't.* Gillard, in fact, faces a perfect storm of carbon pricing and more boats.



Given Labor's record on this under both Rudd and Gillard, that's the understatement of the year.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (30 June 2012)

bellenuit said:


> I agree that would be a good deal, but unfortunately the Libs have been too resolute that they could not now support any option that involves Malaysia.
> 
> One of the positives I saw in the Malaysia deal was that we would be getting predominantly Buddhists instead of Muslims, even if the numbers are greater. I think Buddhists are more likely to blend into Australian society than Muslims, who seem to integrate less and demand more the bigger their percentage.
> 
> However, I also believe the Malaysian agreement had Malaysia deciding who would be sent to Australia, so we could also end up with the most troublesome of the refugees. I think we should also ensure that we decide who comes.




Hey Bellenuit, I've got some good news for you in terms of the positives you see in the Malaysia deal, we're already taking on some of the 4000 we signed a deal with (and handed over wads of cash to the Malaysians as per our deal).

The Malaysians were smart enough to require performance of the deal (from our side) once it was signed.  They made it our problem if our own High Court kyboshed any need for them to perform their side and take our 800.

So, lets celebrate this good news.  As for the Gillard government's negotiating skills, well that's gone the way of everything else that this government regards as skill and good governance so "Steady as she goes".


----------



## StumpyPhantom (30 June 2012)

noco said:


> The whole problem is Gillard just can't put her pride aside and accept Nauru and TPVs which she knows damn well will work.
> 
> I am also of the opinion she set Oakshot up with his private members bill, which was almost identical to hers, knowing full well it would not pass the senate so it relieves her of 'WELL IT WAS NOT MY IDEA'.
> 
> ...




Spot on Noco!  Very intuitive, mind reading stuff here.

Gillard ran with the Oakeshott bill which was identical to Labor's, which she didn't even present to the House of Representatives.  

Why?

Because it is Westminster parliamentary convention that if the Government of the day loses a bill (rejection by the Reps) in the House which it controls to form Government, then that's a vote of no-confidence and Government has to be dissolved and an election called.

You won't find that anywhere written in the Australian Constitution, being an unwritten rule or 'convention'.  It's only happened once, 80 years ago and it brought on an election.  So Gillard was never going to risk that, was she.  Especially if members of her own party (Rudd supporters, including possibly Rudd himself) crossed the floor to vote against Labor's bill.  That is why the bill has never seen the light of day.  Can you imagine the humiliation?  Followed by the election which then dismembers Labor?

So there was 7 hours of debate and negotiation, possible rejection, and amendment in the lower house during the week would have spelt doom for Labor if it was their bill.  But Oakeshott was expendable.

Any why THIS expert committee?  And why Houston (other than being able to say "Houston, we have a problem")?  Well, Houston was the Defence Force Chief, more than a decade ago who, before a Parliamentary Committee, debunked Peter Reith's claim about the "children overboard" saga, so Gillard has gone back to him.  And she tends to like good-looking, tall athletic men.  Barry Hall will regret the day he kissed the PM.


----------



## Miss Hale (30 June 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> And she tends to like good-looking, tall athletic men.  Barry Hall will regret the day he kissed the PM.




LOL


----------



## Julia (30 June 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> Spot on Noco!  Very intuitive, mind reading stuff here.
> 
> Gillard ran with the Oakeshott bill which was identical to Labor's, which she didn't even present to the House of Representatives.
> 
> ...



How very interesting.



> You won't find that anywhere written in the Australian Constitution, being an unwritten rule or 'convention'.



So if it's not actually written into our Constitution, can you say why it would actually induce an election in the circumstances outlined above?
There was another bill several weeks ago - cannot now remember what it was about - which similarly was not put up to the House.  What you say would explain that also.
Seems odd that none of the political commentators, e.g. Paul Kelly, have never remarked on this.



> Any why THIS expert committee?  And why Houston (other than being able to say "Houston, we have a problem")?  Well, Houston was the Defence Force Chief, more than a decade ago who, before a Parliamentary Committee, debunked Peter Reith's claim about the "children overboard" saga, so Gillard has gone back to him.



Exactly.  And Paris Aristotle has widely criticised Nauru and offered qualified support for Malaysia.  Don't know anything about the third bloke.  Anyone know where he stands?



> And she tends to like good-looking, tall athletic men.  Barry Hall will regret the day he kissed the PM.



Um, apologies for my ignorance, but who is Barry Hall?


----------



## dutchie (30 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Um, apologies for my ignorance, but who is Barry Hall?




Oh Julia - he plays soccer for Sydney United


----------



## IFocus (30 June 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> Why?
> 
> Because it is Westminster parliamentary convention that if the Government of the day loses a bill (rejection by the Reps) in the House which it controls to form Government, then that's a vote of no-confidence and Government has to be dissolved and an election called.
> 
> You won't find that anywhere written in the Australian Constitution, being an unwritten rule or 'convention'.  It's only happened once, 80 years ago and it brought on an election.  So Gillard was never going to risk that, was she.  Especially if members of her own party (Rudd supporters, including possibly Rudd himself) crossed the floor to vote against Labor's bill.  That is why the bill has never seen the light of day.  Can you imagine the humiliation?  Followed by the election which then dismembers Labor?





Errr happen in the WA parliament last week and there is no calls for an election by the opposition I have never heard of this before except when it comes to bills on supply.


----------



## noco (30 June 2012)

Gillard is up to no good with this panel of so called experts and she may well have a lot of influence to get an outcome to suit herself.

I don't think I have known such a cold, calculating, cunning, conniving, manipulating, lieing and cheating woman in my OBE life time. She is becoming quite open about it and futhermore has got away with it. Question time in parliament is a classic example.

She has manipulated the Thomson saga, the Slipper case, the carbon dioxide tax, the independants, KRudd, Harry Jenkins ( ex speaker), the tent embassy saga, the AWU rort involving Wilson and now the asylum seekers.

It is so frustrating to still see her as Prime Minister of Australia which is going down hill so fast.


----------



## Ferret (30 June 2012)

noco said:


> People should start to realize this a peaceful Muslim invasion and it is happening in all Western countries.
> 
> They are not fleeing from perscution at all. They are being paid to come here and when they get here we continue to pay them. It is a world wide plot dominate the world with Sharia law. It would not surprise me if the Greens are not in the act as well.
> 
> Go talk to people in France, Holland and Denmark.




Noco,
Could it be that Gillard is actually much cleverer than we thought?  Perhaps she is on to this and is fighting this invasion by letting the boats come and sink on the way?


----------



## JTLP (30 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> Oh Julia - he plays soccer for Sydney United




I think you mean football (AFL) - where he finished with the Western Bulldogs - the PMs beloved team. He actually played Full Forward - where the PMs infamous "there's as much chance of me playing FF for the Bulldogs next week than challenging Kevin Rudd for PM" line seems to be nicely intertwined.

EL OH EL What a fantastic liar!


----------



## dutchie (30 June 2012)

JTLP said:


> EL OH EL What a fantastic liar!


----------



## drsmith (30 June 2012)

Ferret said:


> Noco,
> Could it be that Gillard is actually much cleverer than we thought?  Perhaps she is on to this and is fighting this invasion by letting the boats come and sink on the way?



If that's the case (double ?), it's not working.

The Greens aim I suspect is regional processing offshore in the region before they attempt any journey here and then flying them here.

The problem with that (apart from the sheer numbers) is that the queue jumpers will maintain a market for the people smugglers as they do now. The Greens can't (or choose not to) see this through the fog of their lofty ideals.


----------



## sails (30 June 2012)

Here we go - here's the green light.  Pity that working Aussies have to foot the bill:


----------



## StumpyPhantom (30 June 2012)

IFocus said:


> Errr happen in the WA parliament last week and there is no calls for an election by the opposition I have never heard of this before except when it comes to bills on supply.




This is the constitutional move from light to shade, from written to unwritten.  See the link below:

http://australianpolitics.com/conventions




> 2.The Westminster system requires that the ministry must command the support – “confidence” – of the lower house, the House of Representatives. This convention is reinforced by the requirement of Section 53 that all appropriation bills must originate in the House of Representatives. Without the ability to secure “supply” from the House of Representatives, a ministry is obliged to resign or call an election. This last occurred in 1941 when the House of Representatives voted to reduce the size of the government’s budget by one pound. The then Prime Minister, Arthur Fadden, resigned and the ALP’s John Curtin was commissioned to form a government.




So the Australian Constitution has the written code about 'supply', but it is the underlying 'confidence' issue which attaches to every other failed bill which is the unwritten convention.

But the siliest thing about all this of course is that a 'convention' requires one to act honourably and resign of one's own volition.  Yeah right!

Or the Governor-General has to step in and use her reserve powers to sack you.
Yeah right!


----------



## Julia (30 June 2012)

dutchie said:


> Oh Julia - he plays soccer for Sydney United





JTLP said:


> I think you mean football (AFL) - where he finished with the Western Bulldogs - the PMs beloved team.



Thank you both for enlightening me.  I'm happy to remain ignorant when it comes to any version of this activity.



noco said:


> Gillard is up to no good with this panel of so called experts and she may well have a lot of influence to get an outcome to suit herself.



It's like the cliche which suggests one should never ask a question without first knowing the answer.
She has put together this trio, knowing they will deliver her the result she wants.
How utterly transparent she is.



> She has manipulated the Thomson saga, the Slipper case, the carbon dioxide tax, the independants, KRudd, Harry Jenkins ( ex speaker), the tent embassy saga, the AWU rort involving Wilson and now the asylum seekers.



True.  However, we are yet to be assured the Libs have not got dirty hands via Mal Brough's actions in the Slipper affair.  I so hope that turns out not to be the case.  Have always had a lot of time for Mr Brough.


----------



## Julia (30 June 2012)

Goodness, that's a pretty hard hitting video.  The outrage against the government seems to be growing by the day.


----------



## drsmith (30 June 2012)

Julia said:


> Goodness, that's a pretty hard hitting video.  The outrage against the government seems to be growing by the day.



The author(s) is(are) not a fan of the current government to say the least.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25027&p=715370&viewfull=1#post715370

Some of them are very simply very good at getting the point across.


----------



## sails (30 June 2012)

I stumbled across this tonight and found it very disturbing.  Written by a user "True Muslim" from Ryde, Australia.  




> yes we need muslim refugees, australia is a tasteless, cultureless and white stale milk s***hole which muslim cultural diversity will change forever, and we will start with stoning politicians and women of course, especially women who don’t hide their faces in shame of being muslim and belonging to Islam, we will stone them daily as we do in our holy lands and make australia a brotherhood and as holy like our wonderful Arab spring we enjoy in the east, not Sodom and Gomorrah debauchery s*** hole it is today. So keep up the push to further the cause of our holy righteous ways and end this ridiculous campaign to stop us entering this land we pilgrims come with a purpose, to further the cause of Islam etched in Aussie blood. We need a brotherhood in australia women are useless and should hide their faces and cower in shame, tremble in the presence of men and humble themselves to our needs and demands as well as keep the house clean, do the washing and keep their pussies clean so they don’t smell like other muslim women who never take off their full body covers, not even to wash, they should be stoned when we can identify them from all the other faceless women in Islam





http://www.topix.com/world/australi...eminent-panel-on-boats-policy-a-waste-of-time


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2012)

Andrew Bolt points out the blatent hypocrisy of Andrew Wilkie.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...s/wilkie_was_against_it_before_he_was_for_it/

Then of course, there was pokies.


----------



## Calliope (1 July 2012)

It should be obvious to even Blind Freddy that *there is no solution to the Boat Problem*. If the three Wise men have any integrity they will tell Julia that *while Australia is an attractive destination the boats will keep coming and coming and coming.*

The only answer is to make it an unattractive haven for opportunist queue jumpers. All the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in Parliament assures us that this will not happen. * Ergo we cannot decide who comes to this country and how they come! That will be decided in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia, all Muslim countries except Sri Lanka the source of Tamil Tiger remnants.*

When parliament resumes Julia will have to come clean and tell us *to lump it.*:bowdown:


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2012)

Alexander Downer also made the following point on Andrew Bolt's show this morning although he referred to Julia Gillards own words about the state of the current parliament.


----------



## dutchie (1 July 2012)

The person who is currently the leader of the Labor party should be begging the LNP to let them go back to the system that worked before they dismantled it in 2007.

She and Rudd are both responsible for not having a policy, for the cause of the current problem and for the loss of life.


----------



## johenmo (1 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> It should be obvious to even Blind Freddy that...while Australia is an attractive destination the boats will keep coming and coming and coming.




Don't always agree with your posts but this sums it up.  If one is desperate and can find a way to "jump the queue" then one will try it.  I don't blame them for that - I would do it too.  Especially if I had a dodgy past.


----------



## Julia (1 July 2012)

drsmith said:


> Alexander Downer also made the following point on Andrew Bolt's show this morning although he referred to Julia Gillards own words about the state of the current parliament.



Wow!  That's putting it plainly.  Really well done and an indication of the level of anger out there.


----------



## Calliope (1 July 2012)

dutchie said:


> The person who is currently the leader of the Labor party should be begging the LNP to let them go back to the system that worked before they dismantled it in 2007.
> 
> She and Rudd are both responsible for not having a policy, for the cause of the current problem and for the loss of life.




The only policies that Labor and the Coalition have is to try to deter them without upsetting them. It doesn't work. It's been tried with fruit bats. Either we get tough or we give up.


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2012)

Julia said:


> Wow!  That's putting it plainly.  Really well done and an indication of the level of anger out there.



This one too is rather cutting.


Today's effort.


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2012)

The Government and Opposition could be in agreement on offshore processing in 5-seconds if Julia Gillard's expert asylum-seeker panel comes to the party,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...panel-advises-pm/story-fn9hm1gu-1226413480558


----------



## Knobby22 (1 July 2012)

Anyone watch Insiders?
It appears that the Libs aren't that confident that their plan will work very well so even if they get Labor agreement, they are going to trot out Labor incompetance as the reason it fails.  Interesting times. Worth a watch on iview to see a detailed discussion on this issue.

Greens come out very badly. I agree with a statement made on the show that Adam Bandt will now have no hope in retaining his seat as the assumption that it was green voters who voted him in is wrong. It was people sending a protest vote on both the Labor and Lib parties (this also helped the independants). This was why I voted him last election in that seat, as a protest, he has not a hope in hell in getting a vote from me now.


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> they are going to trot out Labor incompetance as the reason it fails.



There's something of a track record there. 



Knobby22 said:


> This was why I voted him last election in that seat, as a protest,



From frying pan into the fire.


----------



## dutchie (1 July 2012)

I think I can trump Gillard's "experts". I have a group of even wiser experts. Its called the electorate.

They have already made their decision - bring back Howard's Pacific Solution.

The committee has had years of experience and is free of charge to the Australian taxpayer.

(This committee also has expertise in the Carbon Tax issue and has made their decision to get rid of it.)

But Gillard refuses to listen to this committee because its not what she wants to hear but she will one day soon and she  will get a big headache!


----------



## Julia (1 July 2012)

drsmith said:


> The Government and Opposition could be in agreement on offshore processing in 5-seconds if Julia Gillard's expert asylum-seeker panel comes to the party,
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...panel-advises-pm/story-fn9hm1gu-1226413480558



That's a misleading headline to the article which actually says:


> PRIME Minister Julia Gillard says she will take seriously advice from an expert panel




She can perfectly well 'take seriously' the advice offered by her carefully chosen panel, but in the unlikely event they fail to come up with what she expects, she can equally well reject it.
Consider the Henry tax review.  They took that 'seriously' and failed to act on it.

Her words mean zilch.

"The Insiders" today was another carefully chosen panel of Labor fans who could be depended upon to make all the expected comments about the carbon tax.
The ABC redeems itself with programs like the Four Corners People Smuggling episode, but then reverts to type with efforts like today which made no pretence at being balanced, especially the contribution from Ms Kelly.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2012)

Julia said:


> That's a misleading headline to the article which actually says:
> 
> 
> She can perfectly well 'take seriously' the advice offered by her carefully chosen panel, but in the unlikely event they fail to come up with what she expects, she can equally well reject it.
> ...



My post on that article was a bit tounge in cheek.

She won't back down on Malaysia regardless. The panel is just to buy time and maintain pressure on the Opposition. Her tactic is to either get the Opposition to back down or continue to try and justify the current situation which in terms of increased numbers being accepted, satisfies the Greens.

If the Opposition did back down and it went pear shaped, she can sheet some of the blame on them. This is one reason I suspect why Tony Abbott doesn't want a bar of it.


----------



## noco (2 July 2012)

drsmith said:


> My post on that article was a bit tounge in cheek.
> 
> She won't back down on Malaysia regardless. The panel is just to buy time and maintain pressure on the Opposition. Her tactic is to either get the Opposition to back down or continue to try and justify the current situation which in terms of increased numbers being accepted, satisfies the Greens.
> 
> If the Opposition did back down and it went pear shaped, she can sheet some of the blame on them. This is one reason I suspect why Tony Abbott doesn't want a bar of it.




Yes I agree. The thing that concerns me is, if she did relent and went back to the Pacific solution, she would go out of her way to make it fail in some way or another.

Let the voters decide. Bring on an election.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2012)

Listening to Christine Milne on ABC 720 Perth, it's clear that Labor's so called expert panel will not find in favour of offshre processing at all.

She has spoken. She also thinks we should take them out of the refugee camps before they hit the water.

It's clear where this is going under the current Government.


----------



## noco (2 July 2012)

drsmith said:


> Listening to Christine Milne on ABC 720 Perth, it's clear that Labor's so called expert panel will not find in favour of offshre processing at all.
> 
> She has spoken. She also thinks we should take them out of the refugee camps before they hit the water.
> 
> It's clear where this is going under the current Government.




Gillard will have full control and influence on this so called panel of experts to come up with a solution to suit her.

This woman is coniving, cunning and deceiful to the full extent. How can anyone ever trust her. She has to go.


----------



## dutchie (2 July 2012)

7 boats since the debate.

7 boats since you gave up, Julia


----------



## noco (2 July 2012)

dutchie said:


> 7 boats since the debate.
> 
> 7 boats since you gave up, Julia




I just listened to Gillard on 2GB with Ben Fordham.

She told Ben she can't turn back the boats because Indonesia won't accept them back.

So why can't the boats sneak back in just the same way they left.

Or why can't Indonesia stop them leaving in the first place.

The main reason is Indonesia are happy to get rid of an Indonesian problem. Indonesia are 90% Muslim and they are happy to increase the Muslim population in Australia.


----------



## tigerboi (3 July 2012)

its easy to fix...go to mr bung bung indonesian president & say next boat leaves

australia stops the foreign aid simple see how quick they stop

as for gillard what a spineless creature


----------



## Happy (3 July 2012)

Being suspicious type

I suspect that all the hurry in so many boats reaching us probably caused by information leaked, that after visit to Australia, they will have to look as they are fighting illegal boats leaving their country.


----------



## Julia (3 July 2012)

tigerboi said:


> its easy to fix...go to mr bung bung indonesian president & say next boat leaves
> 
> australia stops the foreign aid simple see how quick they stop
> 
> as for gillard what a spineless creature



Hah.  Hope you're not holding your breath for that to happen tigerboi.


----------



## dutchie (5 July 2012)

A new tactic is developing by the illegal boat arrivals - pretend you are sinking and get a free taxi ride to Australia.

Bolt asks a good question.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ents/why_are_these_boat_people_not_sent_back/


----------



## Julia (5 July 2012)

That's the exact question we should all be asking.  The distress call was bogus.
The boat is perfectly fine.
The Australian government looks utterly pathetic.  And as a country we seem to have become a beacon for anyone who decides life is nice here.  

Meantime, Sarah Hanson Young has been over to Indonesia to talk to the refugees.
She has decided we need to make it much easier for them to come here.


----------



## drsmith (5 July 2012)

Julia said:


> Meantime, Sarah Hanson Young has been over to Indonesia to talk to the refugees.
> She has decided we need to make it much easier for them to come here.



It's just another step in the process of the Greens plan of exchanging boats for jets. A plan that Labor seems to be passively following.


----------



## Calliope (5 July 2012)

It's about time we stopped being so nice.



> PEOPLE-SMUGGLERS are treating the Australian navy "like the NRMA", officials fear, as an asylum boat makes its way towards Christmas Island under escort after a mayday call made closer to Indonesia than the Australian outpost.


----------



## noco (5 July 2012)

drsmith said:


> It's just another step in the process of the Greens plan of exchanging boats for jets. A plan that Labor seems to be passively following.




And the percentage of Muslims into Australia is continuing to rise.

They stay in hotels in Indonesia for months waiting for smuggler's boat. 

Who is paying their hotel bills?

BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID OF WHAT IS HAPPENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## IFocus (5 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> It's about time we stopped being so nice.




Classic.


----------



## noco (6 July 2012)

Ring,ring, hulo Joolya, this is Mahommad on illegal boat 219, we have just left Hindonezya and are 40 norty miles south of Port Smugla. Please send water taxi as our boat has 156 peepol on bord which is 50 more dan we should of. The water line is well above da  plimsol line and da boat mite roll over, plz come quick.
Plz ask Chrisse Boin if he has our house ready or will we be stopping at da lodge with Joolya for a wile. She has lots of spare rooms and a big yard for the kids ta play in. 
Also dat nice young lady Sarah, will she be waiting to welcum us at Xmas Island.
Joolya, do all dis for us and we will vote for ya nex year.


----------



## sails (6 July 2012)

It astounds me that labor ever politicised our border security.  They gave bipartisan support to the Pacific Solution which clearly worked.

This has to be more than coincidence that there was a massive drop off of arrivals during the time of the Pacific solution during 2001-2007.





These are not people fleeing war


----------



## sails (6 July 2012)

A terrorist raid in London.  It is disturbing that Gillard is allowing hundreds of people to arrive with no ID almost on a daily basis.  How many terrorists are entering our country at our expense too?



> Five men and a woman were arrested on suspicion of the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism and were being held at a southeast London police station, police said.
> 
> Three of the men, believed to be from a Bangladeshi family, were arrested in a raid on a house in Stratford, east London.
> 
> ...




Read more from the Age: 'I heard the biggest bang ever': terror raid near Olympics site


----------



## Calliope (6 July 2012)

Abbott is wrong. The navy is full of wimps.



> TONY Abbott has shunned multi-party talks aimed at tackling people-smuggling, as former navy chief Chris Barrie declared the Coalition's plan to turn back asylum boats was dangerous and wouldn't work.
> 
> The Opposition Leader today reiterated his support for the policy, despite fresh reports Indonesia will refuse to take back asylum boats.
> 
> *“The navy was professional enough to do it before and I don't think it has lost any of its professionalism between then and now,” Mr Abbott told the Nine Network.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ack-asylum-boats/story-fn59niix-1226418649328



> DEFENCE has mustered military chaplains and psychologists to treat navy patrol boat sailors traumatised by the recovery of drowned asylum-seekers and the rescue of boats in distress.
> 
> The move comes amid concern that the navy will have to cope with a spate of new rescues in the months ahead as asylum-seeker boats more frequently send out distress signals to engage Australian patrols.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ised-by-sinkings/story-fn9hm1gu-1226418314936


----------



## StumpyPhantom (6 July 2012)

sails said:


> It astounds me that labor ever politicised our border security.  They gave bipartisan support to the Pacific Solution which clearly worked.
> 
> This has to be more than coincidence that there was a massive drop off of arrivals during the time of the Pacific solution during 2001-2007.
> 
> ...




I find it totally ironic that Labor now defends its opposing Nauru on the basis that: "The experts, including the Secretary of the Department, Andrew Metcalfe, tell us that it will no longer work"

Two questions arise from this, which Labor conveniently omits.  First, why won't it now work?  Because Labor, in dismantling the Pacific Solution, completely debunked and poo-pooed it.  Second, what was the experts' advice to the incoming Labor government about how successful it was and what the risks were in dismantling it?  The advice would have been: "Don't do it, leave well enough alone."

But the Labor political masters, keen on rhetoric and demonising the Howard government, knew better.  They always do.  So let's have our moment of truth on this, as shown by the chart above.  

Statistics don't lie.  Or do they?


----------



## sails (6 July 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> I find it totally ironic that Labor now defends its opposing Nauru on the basis that: "The experts, including the Secretary of the Department, Andrew Metcalfe, tell us that it will no longer work"
> 
> Two questions arise from this, which Labor conveniently omits.  First, why won't it now work?  Because Labor, in dismantling the Pacific Solution, completely debunked and poo-pooed it.  Second, what was the experts' advice to the incoming Labor government about how successful it was and what the risks were in dismantling it?  The advice would have been: "Don't do it, leave well enough alone."
> 
> ...






Gillard promised to stop the boats just as she promised no carbon tax.  It seems she is the one who breaks promises.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (6 July 2012)

sails said:


> Gillard promised to stop the boats just as she promised no carbon tax.  It seems she is the one who breaks promises.




The carbon tax was surely a broken promise, I completely agree.  The 'stop the boats' promise?  Well that was just a "Hail Mary" wasn't it.  Oh sorry, I forgot.  She is an atheist.  So it was a "Dr Craig, do a Whyalla rain dance for me".

The truth was (and it shows now, 2 years later) that she had no idea how to stop the boats.  What she did know, was what STARTED the boats again, and the REAL lie was sitting on her hands insisting it was offshore push factors.  So, with the proper amount of humility, she could have re-opened Nauru 2 years ago and the boats would have stoppoed by now.

Foolish, stubborn pride, I reckon.  Much more so than a broken promise.


----------



## drsmith (6 July 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> So, with the proper amount of humility, she could have re-opened Nauru 2 years ago and the boats would have stoppoed by now.
> 
> Foolish, stubborn pride, I reckon.  Much more so than a broken promise.



Don't forget those slippery Greens. Probably a condition of minority government like the carbon tax.

Now Labor's taking the heat and the Greens are aiming for their so-called high moral ground while eroding Labor's voter base.


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2012)

The Greens now think they're clever enough to rewrite history in order to promote their own policy agenda.



> Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young said it was “deceitful” for the Coalition to be asserting that a return to the Howard-era asylum-seeker policies would fix the current problem.
> 
> She said increasing Australia's humanitarian refugee intake would help stem the boats.
> 
> ...



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ts-the-navys-job/story-fn9hm1gu-1226420177859

They clearly consider the Australian public at large to be stupid.


----------



## Julia (8 July 2012)

From the above link:


> Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young said it was “deceitful” for the Coalition to be asserting that a return to the Howard-era asylum-seeker policies would fix the current problem.
> 
> She said increasing Australia's humanitarian refugee intake would help stem the boats.
> 
> ...




They already have a safer option, Ms Hanson-Young.  That is to wait their turn to be properly assessed as refugees in one of hundreds of UNHCR refugee camps.  Just as others without the means to pay people smugglers are doing.

Hopefully, Labor are finally waking up to the reality that is The Greens.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (8 July 2012)

Julia said:


> From the above link:
> 
> 
> They already have a safer option, Ms Hanson-Young.  That is to wait their turn to be properly assessed as refugees in one of hundreds of UNHCR refugee camps.  Just as others without the means to pay people smugglers are doing.
> ...




Might be too late to divorce the Greens.  Does anyone have a copy of that document that Gillard and Brown were filmed to be co-signing after the 2010 election?

I suspect no lawyer worth their salt was asked to look at it, so there's no exit clause and it implicitly means they're running a joint ticket at the next election.

That would be a good query for question-time when Parliament resumes, asking Labor to table that document.  Would the Carbon Tax promise be in there?  Can't imagine Brown would be silly enough to trust Gillard as far as he could throw her.

And if Wilkie had signed a similarly enforceable document, wouldn't he have tried in a Court somewhere to enforce it? DUMBO!


----------



## Calliope (9 July 2012)

I love how quickly Chinese immigrants assimilate.



> William Lung, who five years ago immigrated from China with his wife Vivien, said the nation's borders were at risk from illegal boat arrivals. "You need some action to contain people coming to Australia."
> 
> Mr Lung, a decoration consultant, voted Labor at the last election, in part because "Kevin Rudd can speak Chinese". This time, he'll vote Liberal.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...he-western-front/story-fn59niix-1226420572912


----------



## Happy (9 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> I love how quickly Chinese immigrants assimilate.
> 
> …




Nothing wrong to sensibly talk about adopted country.

Chinese immigrants, especially first generation can probably tell few tales about what overpopulation to provided services mean.

Way it goes quality of life will be no envy of anybody, suppose sure thing to stop the boats.

There is no flood of boats to China for that matter, probably slightly for different reasons.


----------



## sptrawler (10 July 2012)

This is a classic, they recieved a distress call from an asylum seeker boat, 43 nautical miles from Java.LOL

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...es-distress-call/story-fncynkc6-1226422852552

Next they will be phoning as they get on board.LOL,LOL Can you imagine it "Ah Australian Navy,sorry pressed  wrong speed dial  number, we were ringing to order Bintang"


----------



## Happy (10 July 2012)

sptrawler said:


> This is a classic, they recieved a distress call from an asylum seeker boat, 43 nautical miles from Java.LOL
> ...




We are taken for idiots heree and sooner we tell them to pull the other leg the better.


----------



## Julia (10 July 2012)

At least Tony Abbott is taking a hard line and refusing to participate in Ms Gillard's silly committee.
As he says, the Libs already have a policy on asylum seekers, and do not need a committee to work this out for them.

Gillard has the automatic fallback position of "when I have no idea what to do, I'll form another committee."
Pathetic.


----------



## noco (10 July 2012)

Julia said:


> At least Tony Abbott is taking a hard line and refusing to participate in Ms Gillard's silly committee.
> As he says, the Libs already have a policy on asylum seekers, and do not need a committee to work this out for them.
> 
> Gillard has the automatic fallback position of "when I have no idea what to do, I'll form another committee."
> Pathetic.




Yes Julia, and with her influence on that committee she will get the result she is seeking and that will be Malaysia and not Nauru. She will say the experts have spoken.


----------



## Julia (10 July 2012)

noco said:


> Yes Julia, and with her influence on that committee she will get the result she is seeking and that will be Malaysia and not Nauru. She will say the experts have spoken.



Do you think so?  My impression is more that they will recommend onshore processing.
We'll see, I guess.


----------



## noco (10 July 2012)

Julia said:


> Do you think so?  My impression is more that they will recommend onshore processing.
> We'll see, I guess.




Yes, you may well be right. It might be a kiss and make up with the Greens to get them back on side.

Just off the subject, I note the Greens have lost 1% point in the latest polls.


----------



## dutchie (11 July 2012)

We must be producing a lot of carbon dioxide with that new taxi service we are providing to anyone that calls (between Indonesia and Australia).

I think we will soon need more taxis as there seems to be a high demand.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2012)

This really takes the cake, former Defence Secretary Paul Barratt, saying the navy would hate to have to turn the boats back.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...despite-military-warnings-20120711-21umf.html

There are lots of things that armed forces personnel hate to do, but unfortunately they have to do them. It will become very difficult to run the armed forces if they decide what should and should not be done.
Also saying it is dangerous, well tell that to the armed forces in Afghanistan.
I really don't think there is much upside for ex armed forces personel saying what is right or wrong, it shows they were in the wrong job.
Where he says navy personnel won't support the coalition policy, if they are in government,what he advocates amounts to treason.
He sounds like a labor supporter who like the party has lost the plot.


----------



## drsmith (11 July 2012)

dutchie said:


> We must be producing a lot of carbon dioxide with that new taxi service we are providing to anyone that calls (between Indonesia and Australia).
> 
> I think we will soon need more taxis as there seems to be a high demand.



We might as well hire a cruise liner with one way trips departing from Denpasar once a week. Christine Milne could welcome them abord.

Labor though would hire the Costa Concordia.


----------



## noco (11 July 2012)

sptrawler said:


> This really takes the cake, former Defence Secretary Paul Barratt, saying the navy would hate to have to turn the boats back.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...despite-military-warnings-20120711-21umf.html
> 
> ...




Spot on sptrawler, they appear to be a buch of sooks in the navy. Have a contingent of SAS on board; they won't mess around. In fact I reckon they would relish it.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2012)

Here is another example of the government in turmoil, bring back someone who IMO should be sitting in a deck chair.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-...alaysia-deal-must-proceed-20120711-21wac.html

How he expects normal coherent Australians to understand that gobbledegook is beyond me.


----------



## sails (11 July 2012)

And another boat apparently pretending to be in distress with another 65 thought to be on board - clearly showing that Gillard is incapable of fixing this problem:



> THE navy has responded to a distress call from a second asylum-seeker boat in as many days.
> 
> The boat made three distress calls about 100 nautical miles north of Christmas Island on Tuesday night.




BUT



> Australian and Indonesian authorities launched a major rescue operation but border protection officials *found the boat showing "no visible signs of distress"*.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...red-to-navy-ship/story-fn3dxiwe-1226423028739


----------



## noco (11 July 2012)

noco said:


> And the percentage of Muslims into Australia is continuing to rise.
> 
> They stay in hotels in Indonesia for months waiting for smuggler's boat.
> 
> ...




I would dearly like to know who is footing the hotel bills for these people. Does anyone know how we can find out?

Also while on the subject, I would like to see this weak government of ours lock up the captains of these illegal intruders for 20 years as a derterent and 10 years for the crew. I'll bet the smugglers will soon run out of crew members when the word gets back.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2012)

Another thing, why doesn't someone ask how many lives has Labor risked by dismantling a system that was working?


Ms Gillard said yesterday the opposition was prepared to risk the lives of navy personnel, as well as asylum seekers.

"I'd ask Mr Abbott, how many lives of navy officers is he prepared to risk?" she said.

"How many lives of navy officers would he be prepared to lose if he was prime minister?"



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ry-warnings-20120711-21umf.html#ixzz20PQRHkYH

Talk about making a fool of yourself, jeez where is she coming from, she must be delusional.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ry-warnings-20120711-21umf.html#ixzz20PQRHkYH




Another thing, why doesn't the S.M.H when putting forward controversial political comment like that, allow readers to post comments?
Funny labor talk about biased reporting. 
Also it is obvious why the boys club is worried about Gina kicking ar$e. If the paper keeps reporting one sided commentary, they will lose circulation. It may make the editors and reporters feel good but most of the population don't agree with them.  Much better to just report facts and let the public put their own bent on it.


----------



## Calliope (12 July 2012)

In the above link:



> Mr Barratt said that navy personnel would not support the Coalition's policy of turning back boats where it is "safe" to do so. "They would hate it. Ordinary sailors would say this is not what we joined the navy for," he said.




The poor little pets. But wait;



> A further boat carrying seven people was intercepted near Christmas Island yesterday and *the Sri Lankan Navy seized two fishing trawlers carrying at least 82 would-be asylum seekers heading to Australia*.




Apparently Sri Lankan sailors are made of sterner stuff than our wimps.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ry-warnings-20120711-21umf.html#ixzz20O7O6Q1F


----------



## noco (12 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> In the above link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




For crying out aloud, those Navy sooks are frightened to turn a boat around, I have a son in Afghanistan in far more danger than those Navy jerks. 

The ADF personal sign up with the understanding that they will carry out assignements set down by the government of the day. What if they were confronted with an Indonesian naval vessel? Would they run back to Australia and say this is too dangerous. For Gawd sake. I have never heard of such rot and I go back to WW11. I am an OBE.


----------



## joea (12 July 2012)

sptrawler said:


> she must be delusional.



Apparently when you are a female PM you can get away with this c**p!
She is not only delusional, "she is off her rocker."
joea


----------



## Boggo (12 July 2012)

Pickering seems to have a point.


----------



## johenmo (12 July 2012)

sails said:


> And another boat apparently pretending to be in distress....




Australia is Pavlov's dog.


----------



## sails (12 July 2012)

There have been 20,377 arrivals since labor came to power in November 2007 compared to around 300 for the six years of the Pacific Solution.

 348 boats so far since November 2007 - considering Gillard promised to stop the boats, it is a pretty dismal result.





http://www.news.com.au/money/money-...oats-in-distress/story-e6frfmd9-1226423925675


----------



## Julia (12 July 2012)

noco said:


> For crying out aloud, those Navy sooks are frightened to turn a boat around, I have a son in Afghanistan in far more danger than those Navy jerks.



It must be immensely galling for your son to be (presumably) fighting to protect the Afghan people while seeing Afghan men of fighting age and physical competence running away to seek the easy life here in Australia.
What a hideous imbalance.


----------



## noco (12 July 2012)

Julia said:


> It must be immensely galling for your son to be (presumably) fighting to protect the Afghan people while seeing Afghan men of fighting age and physical competence running away to seek the easy life here in Australia.
> What a hideous imbalance.




Julia, it makes me want to throw every time I hear about these cowards leaving Afghanistan. I pray every night that my son comes back in one peice.

While they are awaiting a smugglers boat they are living in hotels for weeks and some times months and I have asked the question before, "who is paying for their accomodation in Indonesia"?


----------



## DB008 (12 July 2012)

Julia said:


> It must be immensely galling for your son to be (presumably) fighting to protect the Afghan people while seeing Afghan men of fighting age and physical competence running away to seek the easy life here in Australia.
> What a hideous imbalance.





+1

Gillard and the ALP are a JOKE and a half! They should grow some f**ken balls for Gods-sake. 


Noco, l hope that your son returns safe and sound.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2012)

It certainly is about time the bleeding heart club realised, most of these asylum seekers, are not fleeing oppression. Just trying to illegally enter a country with a wefare system.
No one can blame them for that, however if you have a open border system, it isn't long before the system becomes unsustainable. When that day arrives how do you say that is enough we can't take any more?
Then watch how many arrive when they think the door is closing.


----------



## sails (13 July 2012)

Andrew Bolt wonders why we are accepting Sri Lankan arrivals as refugees...

A tourist magnet should not be a source of “refugees”



> The front page today of Escape, the Herald Sun’s travel lift-out, is dominated by a picture of two smiling Sri Lankan children, over the headline “Back to Sri Lanka”.
> 
> The report tales of “endless beaches, timeless ruins, welcoming people”, and notes correctly that “years of war” are “over” and “Sri Lanka’s looking up”.
> 
> So why is the Gillard Government still allowing boatloads of “asylum seekers” from Sri Lanka to stay? Are we again being played for suckers?





Noco - trust you son comes home safely too.  It would be sickening to see these healthy young afghan males coming here to the welfare country when they could be helping to protect their own country.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 July 2012)

Sri Lanka is made up of two peoples, the Tamils (the original inhabitants) and the India derived Sri Lankans.
The Tamils have been in a war which they lost with the main populace and have been slaughtered at will, hence they are refugees.

Obviously if they are not Tamils, then they will not know the Tamil language and are economic refugees. They should be sent back.  Andrew Bolt know this.


----------



## noco (13 July 2012)

DB008 said:


> +1
> 
> Gillard and the ALP are a JOKE and a half! They should grow some f**ken balls for Gods-sake.
> 
> ...




Thx for your kind thoughts Dannyboy.


----------



## IFocus (13 July 2012)

noco said:


> I pray every night that my son comes back in one peice.





Hope your boy stays safe and returns home in one piece (body and mind) to Noco it must be a worrying time.


----------



## noco (14 July 2012)

IFocus said:


> Hope your boy stays safe and returns home in one piece (body and mind) to Noco it must be a worrying time.




Thx IFocus, whilst we do have our difference at times, you do have a heart. I must admit I am an agnostic but I do pray for him each night.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2012)

Well the labor party will have to think of a new tax to cover the cost of compensation to these illegal asylum seekers. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...held-at-detention-centres-20120713-2219u.html

LOL Just when you thought it couldn't get worse. The joke is we are paying for the lawyers. 
Maybe if we all pray together it will bring on an election. I am not saying that will result in labor being thrown out, but I am willing to put money on it.:1zhelp:

Maybe Gillard in her frustration at the impasse on asylum seekers will call an election or force a double dissolution. 
Was that a flock of pigs flying over.


----------



## drsmith (14 July 2012)

Where Labor is going with its border protection policy.



> The best way to stop people risking their lives is to give them hope of a safer pathway to a better life. That means massively increasing the number of refugees we resettle and the funding we give the UN High Commission for Refugees in Indonesia and Malaysia, working to combat corruption in Indonesian ports, and prioritising safety of life at sea.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...he-boats-come-in/story-e6frgd0x-1226424855910


----------



## sails (14 July 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well the labor party will have to think of a new tax to cover the cost of compensation to these illegal asylum seekers...





So, they come here without ID and our authorities have difficultiy in knowing if they are genuine refugees or not. So we take them in, house and feed them and give them money for life if they need it.  Then they sue us for more money.

Meanwhile, there is little, if any, room left for genuine refugees waiting to come here and who don't have the money to jump the queue.

From Andrew Bolt:  “Compassion” means robbing real refugees



> Fakes and queue-jumpers are costing the places of real and poorer refugees:
> 
> AUSTRALIA is now resettling fewer displaced people from overseas camps than at any time since modern migration programs were introduced in 1977, because of the surge in asylum-seekers arriving by boat....​




Read more at the link.


----------



## sails (14 July 2012)

drsmith said:


> Where Labor is going with its border protection policy.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...he-boats-come-in/story-e6frgd0x-1226424855910





Maybe we should fly in our quota of genuine refugees and refuse citizenship to those arriving by the back door with no ID.  Or maybe deduct the $200,000 it costs us to process each arrival from our aid to Indonesia for each person - perhaps then Indonesia would be more proactive in helping to stop these wealthy people jumping on boats for a life of milk and honey at taxpayers expense.


----------



## drsmith (14 July 2012)

sails said:


> Maybe we should fly in our quota of genuine refugees and refuse citizenship to those arriving by the back door with no ID.  Or maybe deduct the $200,000 it costs us to process each arrival from our aid to Indonesia for each person - perhaps then Indonesia would be more proactive in helping to stop these wealthy people jumping on boats for a life of milk and honey at taxpayers expense.



Don't be silly. 

The Green's idiological nonsense is all at someone else's expense.


----------



## Calliope (14 July 2012)

Do you remember "Mediterranean Back?"  The new money spinner is to feign mental illness and blame it on being in a detention centre. All with the help of Slater and Gordon who know a good little earner when they see one.



> THE federal government faces a wave of costly litigation for compensation over its treatment of refugees in immigration detention centres, including Villawood, as lawyers examine the cases of scores of former inmates.
> The Social Justice Network, an advocacy group based in western Sydney, has referred more than 40 cases to the law firm Slater & Gordon to assess their eligibility to sue the Commonwealth for allegedly breaching its duty of care towards asylum seekers who developed mental illnesses while in detention.
> ''This could cost Australia hundreds of millions of dollars,'' said the network's spokesman, Jamal Daoud, who describes it as a ''mass action''.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ion-centres-20120713-2219u.html#ixzz20YQkGzLz





Doesn't it just tug at your heratstrings?


----------



## Julia (14 July 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well the labor party will have to think of a new tax to cover the cost of compensation to these illegal asylum seekers.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...held-at-detention-centres-20120713-2219u.html
> 
> LOL Just when you thought it couldn't get worse. The joke is we are paying for the lawyers.



Sure.  Doesn't matter that we can't provide legal aid for many of our own disadvantaged citizens.

From the above link, lamenting the sadness of one of the refugees who will probably succeed in receiving taxpayer funds for his detention-induced neurosis:


> Since being released he has been unable to work and has been taking medication for depression. "I always feel angry all the time. Anything stresses me out. I feel short of breath."




Well, I also feel angry all the time when I read this sort of stuff, and stressed out.  What are my chances of getting the government to pay me compensation because of my now pathological anxiety about the loss of border control in this country?



sails said:


> So, they come here without ID and our authorities have difficultiy in knowing if they are genuine refugees or not. So we take them in, house and feed them and give them money for life if they need it.  Then they sue us for more money.
> 
> Meanwhile, there is little, if any, room left for genuine refugees waiting to come here and who don't have the money to jump the queue.
> 
> ...



Yes, "The Australian" covered the same sad story.   As we've been saying for some time now, these people for whom we are now pretty much providing a taxi service as soon as they leave Indonesia, are displacing those who have actually applied via UNHCR, who have no money to pay people smugglers and who are enduring a precarious existence in violent camps.

To his credit, Chris Bowen is finally acknowledging this.   So what are you going to do about it, Mr Bowen?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (14 July 2012)

To stop the rot at its source, war and violent oppression would need to be stopped.  Do the UN have any power to arrest or kill warlords?  I don't think the World can rely on the US to keep doing all its dirty work.  If there's no warring, then there's no reason to seek asylum other than poverty.  But if you claim poverty then you can't afford $5K for the boat trip.  Is Australia investing resources in fixing the core issue?


----------



## sails (14 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> To stop the rot at its source, war and violent oppression would need to be stopped.  Do the UN have any power to arrest or kill warlords?  I don't think the World can rely on the US to keep doing all its dirty work.  If there's no warring, then there's no reason to seek asylum other than poverty.  But if you claim poverty then you can't afford $5K for the boat trip.  Is Australia investing resources in fixing the core issue?




GB, I feel you are overlooking the pull factors of life time welfare and then sue the stupid Aussies for a few more millions.  Probably repays the smuggler's fees.  Sorry, but I really feel for those who are genuine refugees and these queue jumpers like Captain Emad are taking their places.

And, these same people who come here uninvited with no ID at our expense, expect us to look after them and then sue us also want to bring their own violent laws with them.  What's the point of that???????????


----------



## Knobby22 (14 July 2012)

I can't see this being solved till next election.

No one will give in to the other side politically so let's just welcome them here and stop giving them a hard time.

Out elected represenatives have resolved to let as many come as they want rather than agree on a plan to stop them. 

They will be citizens and I would like them to think good of us rather than develop hate for us.
As they have to use our legal system then we have to give them legal aid. Simple.
If a child's parents die as their boat sinks, we should fly them to the funeral.
As future citizens we have to feed, clothe and do whatever else for them.
We should ferry them when they ask because they have overloaded the boats.
We will have tens of thousands of boat people coming over the next few years, maybe hundreds of thousands if we wait long enough, we should treat them decently.

If we don't want them coming -then one of the parties will have to give in - I don't think any of the parties will put Australia in front of their political point scoring so it is a moot point.


----------



## noco (14 July 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> I can't see this being solved till next election.
> 
> No one will give in to the other side politically so let's just welcome them here and stop giving them a hard time.
> 
> ...




It is the Labor Government who opened up the borders. It is the Labor Government who has stuffed up.

It was the previous Government that stopped the boats and their polices worked. So why doesn't this stupid Gillard go back a systems that worked. I will tell you why because it is her pride and arrogance that is stopping her. She is always quoting she does things in the best interest of the Nation. BS. It is in her best interest alone not to accept the previous government polices.

The other factor is the labor Party are in Government and it is not up to the Coalition to clean up their mess.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 July 2012)

noco said:


> It is the Labor Government who opened up the borders. It is the Labor Government who has stuffed up.
> 
> It was the previous Government that stopped the boats and their polices worked. So why doesn't this stupid Gillard go back a systems that worked. I will tell you why because it is her pride and arrogance that is stopping her. She is always quoting she does things in the best interest of the Nation. BS. It is in her best interest alone not to accept the previous government polices.
> 
> The other factor is the labor Party are in Government and it is not up to the Coalition to clean up their mess.




The Labor Party are in minority government so someone needs to compromise.
As previously stated, the politicians all have put their party in front of our country so its not going to happen.

Since this is not going to occur we should not take it out on the many thousands of boat people coming our way.
Simple.  The mess stays. Welcome them here.

If you don't want them coming then tell your MP to stop it. Everyone blaming everyone else does not stop it happening. Apportioning blames does not stop it. It may win elections but it does not stop it. Can I say it more simply? 
Even as I type this another group of Afgani's have hit our shores and no one is doing anything to stop it.
Labor and Liberal both agree it should be stopped but they are not stopping it. Unless they agree to act together they cannot stop it. The useless Greens want to send bigger ships and bring them all over in one go. They are not going to stop it.

Every time I see Gillard saying we need to stop the boats - then I yell stop them - agree with the Libs.
Every time I see Abbott say he will stop the boats, I say well come to a compromise with Labor and stop them!!!

Stop letting them get away with their political interests getting in front of what is good for the country.
Trotting out propaganda does not stop the boats!!

Sorry, I'm just sick of the political posturing and inaction and excuses.


----------



## drsmith (14 July 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> The Labor Party are in minority government so someone needs to compromise.



That someone needs to be their partners in government, specifically the Greens.


----------



## sails (14 July 2012)

drsmith said:


> That someone needs to be their partners in government, specifically the Greens.





Agree Dr Smith.  The greens have had a lot go their way, so I can't see why they can't compromise over this issue given Gillard refuses point blank to re-instate the pacific solution she and Rudd abolished.  Every attempt to do something better has failed.

Why should Abbott agree to something that may not work?  Labor's track record of getting anything to work is pretty dismal.  The libs had a system that is proven.  It is Gillard who broke it and Gillard who needs to return to something that will work.

And I am sick of Labor wrecking so much.  We had a surplus, now billions of debt in such a short time.  We had good control on our borders meaning genuine refugees got a fair go and better chance we were not letting terrorists in posing as refugees.

Knobby, you might be tired of the posturing, but the majority of Australians are tired of Gillard breaking things and then refusing to put them back the way they were.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (14 July 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> The Labor Party are in minority government so someone needs to compromise.
> As previously stated, the politicians all have put their party in front of our country so its not going to happen.
> 
> Since this is not going to occur we should not take it out on the many thousands of boat people coming our way.
> ...




Knobby - you've expressed some real compassion here.  Good for you, and I'm with you.  Much as I despise what Rudd/Gillard has done, I think I need to confine my venom there and show kindness otherwise.

I don't know enough about the individuals who are coming and their personal stories.  I just know that I'm living in the luckiest country in the world, and I don't know how I would feel in their shoes.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2012)

If Gillard had the strengh of her convictions, she wouldn't be in a minority government.
She would go to an election to get the numbers to govern in her own right. How does she think she is going to get the trust and backing of the electorate, while she keeps avoiding them.
All she is doing is reinforcing the electorates belief that she and her government are useless. If she feels it is all Tony's fault, call an election and see if the voters agree with her.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> Knobby - you've expressed some real compassion here.  Good for you, and I'm with you.  Much as I despise what Rudd/Gillard has done, I think I need to confine my venom there and show kindness otherwise.
> 
> I don't know enough about the individuals who are coming and their personal stories.  I just know that I'm living in the luckiest country in the world, and I don't know how I would feel in their shoes.




I agree Knobby, a lot of these people are fleeing from countries where women are shot for adultery, the man involved gets to watch. 
These countries also have people who blow themselves up in market places and public meeting places, in the belief they are doing it for the 'greater good'. This usually involves killing their fellow countrymen, which I have trouble understanding.
I am sure if I lived in one of these countries, I would be fleeing as well, i just hope we don't get too many of the fanatics who strap on the vests. 
Without papers it must be hard to defferentiate who are genuine and who aren't, I personally would carry my papers to prove who I was. We fortunately haven't had a terrorist attack on our soil, I hope and pray it stays that way.


----------



## Julia (14 July 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> I can't see this being solved till next election.



Agree.  That it should be so is a blight on all our political parties.



> No one will give in to the other side politically so let's just welcome them here and stop giving them a hard time.



I follow your thought process but cannot let go of the picture of the thousands of people who have been struggling to exist in violent and squalid refugee camps, waiting their turn, no money to fly to Indonesia and then pay people smugglers, who now have their chance of getting here dissolved because Australia is overwhelmed with processing the boat people, who purposely destroy their documents so we don't know who they are.
Sorry, Knobby.  I can't feel any sense of welcome for anyone who is unwilling to let us know who they are and where they come from, especially as many of them are of fighting age in Afghanistan and - instead of fighting for their country - instead run away, leaving Australian soldiers to take their place.




> As they have to use our legal system then we have to give them legal aid. Simple.



Probably doesn't seem so terrific to all those Australians who are unable to access legal aid, hundreds of thousands of them, many of whom have paid into our tax system.



> If a child's parents die as their boat sinks, we should fly them to the funeral.



Really?   Do we fly our own citizens around the country when a relative has died in a different state?



> As future citizens we have to feed, clothe and do whatever else for them.
> We should ferry them when they ask because they have overloaded the boats.



What?   My first thought on reading this was that you were being facetious, joking, because that's essentially what we're doing.  But I suspect you are actually serious.



> We will have tens of thousands of boat people coming over the next few years, maybe hundreds of thousands if we wait long enough, we should treat them decently.



Let's say you're an unemployed Australian, someone who has worked all your life but has been retrenched at 50.  You have been responsible and saved as much as you can but you're forced to use up these savings before being able to access the unemployment benefit.  Then when you have done this, you get a measly $225 p.w.
Could you even pay rent out of that?  No.  Let alone all the other expenses.

Yet we can provide immediate public housing for these 'irregular immigrants', all medical and dental care, language tuition, psychological counselling, etc etc, whilst Australians languish on housing waiting lists for many years.

If you can feel warm and fuzzy about all of this, then good for you.  I sure as hell don't.
Especially when we have the shockingly abused people of many African nations, who have endured war and famine for decades, given no hope of accessing this sweet life in Australia.

I try to dismiss it all, remind myself I'm not personally affected, so just forget it.
But the day we dismiss the need for social justice is the day we might as well give up.



drsmith said:


> That someone needs to be their partners in government, specifically the Greens.



Exactly.  It seems Labor is very belatedly learning that the Greens have sucked them dry in getting the Greens' agenda filled, but good luck when it comes to expecting anything in return.
How stupid of Labor to even think of relying on the Greens.



StumpyPhantom said:


> Knobby - you've expressed some real compassion here.



Might be good to have similar level of compassion for our own people.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2012)

Well put Julia, I guess I'm over all this posturing on compassion.
Like you said, some of these people should have the same degree of compassion for Australians, but that's not hip or trendy at the bbq.


----------



## sails (14 July 2012)

Interesting article by Chris Bowen where he recognises the problems of so many with means to pay smugglers arriving here from predominately only three countries.  Some of what he says reflect what both Julia and I have been trying to say that genuine refugees are missing out because of those who have the money to force their way here.

Here are a couple of excerpts:



> Sitting in my Fairfield electorate office in Sydney's west, I am constantly reminded of the inherent unfairness of a situation that leads to these tragedies at sea.
> 
> In the most multicultural area of Australia, where many refugees have made their home, there is very strong support for policies that deter boat journeys and give more places to people sitting in desperate and prolonged circumstances around the world.






> The majority of boat arrivals to Australia come from Iran, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka. Some will be refugees and others will not. But it is legitimate to ask: if we were designing a refugee intake with a blank canvas, would we have a program dominated by these three countries? We would not. Rather, our humanitarian intake would more closely reflect UNHCR's priorities, including populations of concern in Africa and elsewhere.




Read more: Is offshore policy fair? Just ask the migrants


----------



## Calliope (15 July 2012)

Bowen is admitting that John Howard got it right when he said;

* "We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come."*


----------



## sails (15 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> Bowen is admitting that John Howard got it right when he said;
> 
> * "We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come."*





I think Bowen has the right ideas, but can't get past Gillard.  She rolled his decision to use Nauru.

Link on the cabinet leaks last year:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-16/bowen-refuses-to-comment-on-nauru-leaks/3573734


----------



## Gringotts Bank (15 July 2012)

sails said:


> GB, I feel you are overlooking the pull factors of life time welfare and then sue the stupid Aussies for a few more millions.  Probably repays the smuggler's fees.  Sorry, but I really feel for those who are genuine refugees and these queue jumpers like Captain Emad are taking their places.
> 
> And, these same people who come here uninvited with no ID at our expense, expect us to look after them and then sue us also want to bring their own violent laws with them.  What's the point of that???????????




I don't really know how any of this works, I'm just floating ideas.

What about this:  Every boat gets sent to Christmas Island.  Refugees are given basic accommodation, but are not imprisoned as such.  They must work to pay for their own basic food and services, otherwise they get nothing.  Work would include farming duties, building basic infrastructure.  Materials and education supplied by the Aus government.  Anyone who behaves well gets put on the short list for Australian citizenship.

As preparation, Aus govt spend a few million on a publicity campaign in war torn countries so that everyone knows the score.  "This is what will happen if you catch a boat - take it or leave it".


----------



## StumpyPhantom (15 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't really know how any of this works, I'm just floating ideas.
> 
> What about this:  Every boat gets sent to Christmas Island.  Refugees are given basic accommodation, but are not imprisoned as such.  They must work to pay for their own basic food and services, otherwise they get nothing.  Work would include farming duties, building basic infrastructure.  Materials and education supplied by the Aus government.  Anyone who behaves well gets put on the short list for Australian citizenship.
> 
> As preparation, Aus govt spend a few million on a publicity campaign in war torn countries so that everyone knows the score.  "This is what will happen if you catch a boat - take it or leave it".




It's possible GB.  I've had relatives living on Christmas Island 30 years ago as well as more recently.  Somewhat ironically, it's operated as a bit of a half-way house, made up of people who were predominantly connected with the phosphate mining (which is now almost exhausted).  People who moved there were significantly not Australian residents or citizens, but came from Malaysia, Singapore, and South East Asia more generally.  They got their permanent residence there.

I see 2 obstacles.  First, the population that's already there will jack up and will have to be bought out to move to the mainland.  CI is a bit like Norfolk Island, needing everything (just about) brought in from the mainland, except possibly seafood (not red crabs!).  Second, it would involve creating a second class of citizen to be able to restrict movement from one piece of Australian territory to another.  The Parliament could try enacting laws, but given its recent woeful record of defending them in the High Court, it might involve a constitutional amendment.  No such amendment has really been successful without bipartisan support.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (15 July 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> It's possible GB.  I've had relatives living on Christmas Island 30 years ago as well as more recently.  Somewhat ironically, it's operated as a bit of a half-way house, made up of people who were predominantly connected with the phosphate mining (which is now almost exhausted).  People who moved there were significantly not Australian residents or citizens, but came from Malaysia, Singapore, and South East Asia more generally.  They got their permanent residence there.
> 
> I see 2 obstacles.  First, the population that's already there will jack up and will have to be bought out to move to the mainland.  CI is a bit like Norfolk Island, needing everything (just about) brought in from the mainland, except possibly seafood (not red crabs!).  Second, it would involve creating a second class of citizen to be able to restrict movement from one piece of Australian territory to another.  The Parliament could try enacting laws, but given its recent woeful record of defending them in the High Court, it might involve a constitutional amendment.  No such amendment has really been successful without bipartisan support.




Make the locals a really good offer + relocation assistance?  Not ideal I agree, but we don't have a spare island in the Indian ocean... or do we?

The refugees will be second class citizens, yes, but it's not a permanent situation and they are offered free transport back to their homeland if they decide they'd prefer that.  If they choose to stay, they are made safe and given shelter.  Food and services must be worked for.  Anyone who protests or tries to starve himself to death gets deported back from whence he came.  Reward those who do well with what's given.

The information campaign would lay out all the new laws ahead of time, and target the potential refugees and the boat captains.  You don't say "it's illegal", you say "Do what you want, but these are the laws.  You might want to think twice about paying some joker all that money for the boat trip.  If you come, you'll be made safe and given shelter, that's all".


----------



## Gringotts Bank (15 July 2012)

So it would go like this:

Here's a tractor, a plow, and a field.  We'll show you how to plant some crops and properly tend and harvest them.  Or if you want to work driving a truck in a mine, you can do that.  Or if you want to build yourself a house, we have tradies who can show you how to do that, plus the materials.  If you don't do anything, you don't eat.  And if you don't eat you get sent back on the first available ship.

12 months later, Ahmed has grown a crop and supplied his family and others with food.  He gets citizenship.  The rest of his family sat around and did nothing but complain so they stay where they are.


----------



## IFocus (15 July 2012)

Julia said:


> Agree.   especially as many of them are of fighting age in Afghanistan and - instead of fighting for their country - instead run away, leaving Australian soldiers to take their place.




I read this and think surely you have read something of the history of Afghanistan...surely, its nothing like a a place where everyone bands together to defend their Afghanistan flag never has never will be for very good reasons.

While you are reading up on why the Afghans butcher each other and anyone else that comes along please read up on the Hazara and why they have been and will continue to be butchered by other Afghans.

Maybe then you might grasp why they run.

The Hazara have always been given refugee status by Australia and I cannot see that changing.

As for Australians fighting there, right reason for going in wrong reasons for staying, wasted lives that will result in naught other than maintaining our strong alliance with the US nothing more but its a price we will pay in blood.


----------



## Julia (15 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> So it would go like this:
> 
> Here's a tractor, a plow, and a field.  We'll show you how to plant some crops and properly tend and harvest them.  Or if you want to work driving a truck in a mine, you can do that.  Or if you want to build yourself a house, we have tradies who can show you how to do that, plus the materials.  If you don't do anything, you don't eat.  And if you don't eat you get sent back on the first available ship.
> 
> 12 months later, Ahmed has grown a crop and supplied his family and others with food.  He gets citizenship.  The rest of his family sat around and did nothing but complain so they stay where they are.



I like it.  As Stumpy suggests, however, I don't suppose it would ever be that simple.


----------



## Julia (15 July 2012)

IFocus said:


> I read this and think surely you have read something of the history of Afghanistan...surely, its nothing like a a place where everyone bands together to defend their Afghanistan flag never has never will be for very good reasons.
> 
> While you are reading up on why the Afghans butcher each other and anyone else that comes along please read up on the Hazara and why they have been and will continue to be butchered by other Afghans.
> 
> ...



If Afghanistan was the only country in the world with a history of warring factions, then you have a valid point, especially as far as the Hazara are concerned.

But you are missing my broader concern, i.e. so many hundreds of thousands of people from dozens of countries, especially Africa, who have endured far worse than the Afghans and who have had no alternative but to endure the misery of years in dreadful camps throughout the world as they wait in hope for their legitimately made applications to be considered.

I just don't know how  you and others of the Left can so consistently ignore the reality of how these suffering genuine refugees are being pushed ever further back because Australia is so completely absorbed with having to process the products of people smuggling, a process entirely based on how much money you can pay.



> As for Australians fighting there, right reason for going in wrong reasons for staying, wasted lives that will result in naught other than maintaining our strong alliance with the US nothing more but its a price we will pay in blood.



Wrong reason for both going in and staying imo.  But the fact remains that Australian soldiers are being killed there trying to help the Afghan people.


----------



## noco (15 July 2012)

I have a simple solution. Sell Christmas Island to the Indonesians or better still give it to them as gift then it will a bigger problem for the people smuggerlers who will have to travel further. 

Does anyone know what the strategic value is of Australia owning Christmas Island? 

Why do we need it?


----------



## StumpyPhantom (15 July 2012)

noco said:


> I have a simple solution. Sell Christmas Island to the Indonesians or better still give it to them as gift then it will a bigger problem for the people smuggerlers who will have to travel further.
> 
> Does anyone know what the strategic value is of Australia owning Christmas Island?
> 
> Why do we need it?




Ha Ha - the way it's going at the moment, we could sell CI to Indonesia, and all of Australia could move to NZ and our Border Protection Command would still get the "come and get us" satellite calls as soon as the boat leaves it's Indonesian point.

There's currently no limits to the tactics at the moment, because Australia is perceived as not having any spine in standing up to this people smuggling trade.

So, bottom line is there are no easy solutions here.  Inch by inch - that hard fought ground has to be won back against the smugglers, whilst treating the people the victims of the trade with compassion.

It might never be completely won back, but we may reduce the flow to 5000 a year rather than the current projected 20000 (based on June's figures).


----------



## joea (15 July 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> Ha Ha - the way it's going at the moment, we could sell CI to Indonesia, and all of Australia could move to NZ and our Border Protection Command would still get the "come and get us" satellite calls as soon as the boat leaves it's Indonesian point.
> 
> There's currently no limits to the tactics at the moment, because Australia is perceived as not having any spine in standing up to this people smuggling trade.
> 
> ...




+1
joea ..one point! I would not sell CI until I fully understood what was underneath it.


----------



## DB008 (15 July 2012)

Just went to a BBQ in Western Sydney.

There happen to be a couple from Eastern Europe there (with a baby). 

So - Dad, Mum + a 6 year old all in perfect health. Have education and are healthy. No criminal records.

They sold *EVERYTHING* in EASTERN EUROPE to come here.
Big gamble because the situation is so bad in Europe, there is no hope over there. Why not start fresh in the land of opportunity...

He is on a student visa. He is also working limited hours and studying at TAFE. Wife is at home looking after the child. I didn't catch his job, but they are just making ends meet.

He works at the moment (limited hours), pays his taxes and studies, things that a normal Aussie would do.
He wants to move her permanently, integrate into society, live here forever, do everything right. 

Contribute as a normal person in society would do.

Think he has a chance...*NO*.

Because of his student visa, and will have to re-apply in 3 (or 4) years time, to extend it so he can stay here and try to find a sponsor.

I told him, your better off flying to Indo and hopping on a boat and calling for help. At least you'd get a Gov subsidised house and help hand-outs from the Government.
At the moment he has no help from the Aust. Government (not that he needs it) and is paying $650 a week rent in St Leonards. 

This country is a f**ken joke.


----------



## StumpyPhantom (15 July 2012)

Yep!!

Most migrant stories you hear will be like that.  Hard work, personal sacrifice, sell up everything in the homeland to find a better life, especially for the kids.

That's not unusual at all.  About 15 years ago, the Government withdrew normal benefits for new migrants for a period of 2 years.  So life is tough.  Very tough, when you take the language and qualifications barriers into account.

Years of hard labouring at low paying jobs.  But they do it, because that's the ethos built on a respectable path to a new life. 

We actually know this phenomenon from looking at our own home-grown talent.  If you start out with a sense of entitlement, how often do you shed that?


----------



## sails (15 July 2012)

Gillard's green light is still working:  Another boatload of asylum seekers arrives at Christmas Island

Presumably these will take the place of genuine refugees.


----------



## Julia (15 July 2012)

StumpyPhantom said:


> Ha Ha - the way it's going at the moment, we could sell CI to Indonesia, and all of Australia could move to NZ and our Border Protection Command would still get the "come and get us" satellite calls as soon as the boat leaves it's Indonesian point.
> 
> There's currently no limits to the tactics at the moment, because Australia is perceived as not having any spine in standing up to this people smuggling trade.



And that's the whole point in this miserable situation.  We are being made complete fools of.



DB008 said:


> Just went to a BBQ in Western Sydney.
> 
> There happen to be a couple from Eastern Europe there (with a baby).
> 
> ...



And that's the sort of immigrant we want and need.  Best of luck to that family.
He may be finding it unreasonably tough, but he at least can lay claim to self respect, determination, and courage, rather than a sense of outraged entitlement, something which seems to frequently characterise some of the recent arrivals.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2012)

I see Bowen has a bad case of foot in mouth desease again.
He says it is different for Australia because the boats have to be taken to the nearest port. Yet the boats a week ago were only 43 nautical miles off Java and were towed to Christmas Island.
Credibility is falling.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ck-works-sri-lankan-envoy-20120716-22535.html


----------



## Julia (16 July 2012)

Indonesia could learn from Sri Lanka's policies.  AFAIK we haven't given Sri Lanka patrol boats to police the coastline.  Does anyone know what those patrol boats we so generously donated to Indonesia for border protection are actually doing?


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2012)

Julia said:


> Indonesia could learn from Sri Lanka's policies.  AFAIK we haven't given Sri Lanka patrol boats to police the coastline.  Does anyone know what those patrol boats we so generously donated to Indonesia for border protection are actually doing?




Indonesia has said they don't want the boats turned back. All they want to do is sell the asylum seekers tourist visas, as they are seen as in transit to Australia. The labor paty implossion over these refugees is going to be interesting.
It will be a bigger fiasco if by chance the 'Malaysian' solution got up. That would end up making the pink batt fiasco look insignificant. It would end up in an international incident IMO. LOL


----------



## Happy (17 July 2012)

Julia said:


> And that's the whole point in this miserable situation.  We are being made complete fools of.
> 
> 
> And that's the sort of immigrant we want and need.  Best of luck to that family.
> He may be finding it unreasonably tough, but he at least can lay claim to self respect, determination, and courage, *rather than a sense of outraged entitlement*, something which seems to frequently characterise some of the recent arrivals.




Well said words of wisdom

I am not the only one to get impression that our laws are taken advantage of.

And nobody from Government to Centerlink wants to talk about polygamy either, as if it doesn't exist in some communities in Australia.

But this is different subject swept well under the carpet.


----------



## DB008 (19 July 2012)

Is anyone surprised???



> *Soldiers arrested while escorting asylum seekers*
> 
> Several Indonesian military officers have been arrested after being caught escorting 41 asylum seekers to the south-west Java coast.
> 
> ...




ABC Link


----------



## Calliope (19 July 2012)

Get ready for a flood of Afghans!



> PAKISTAN authorities will begin the mass deportation of as many as a million unregistered Afghan refugees in the next six months, a move likely to feed the booming South Asian people-smuggling market.
> 
> Australia is already facing a steady stream of asylum-seekers from Afghanistan to Sri Lanka, with Sri Lankan authorities yesterday intercepting a fourth boat in as many days in its territorial waters, arresting 37 men and four women.
> 
> Pakistan's secretary for the Ministry of States and Frontier Regions, Habibullah Khan, said yesterday his government was negotiating with its Afghan counterparts to begin repatriating all 2.7 million Afghan refugees by December.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ns-to-be-evicted/story-fn9hm1gu-1226429423560


----------



## startrader (24 July 2012)

Ten boats last week, two yesterday, one today with 160 on board.  This escalating problem of open borders bringing in ever increasing numbers of freeloaders CANNOT continue.  What a basket case we are with this farce of a government.  What is going to be the catalyst for them getting kicked out?  Gillard's shady past catching up with her perhaps?  At some stage this government just has to blow itself up.


----------



## sails (24 July 2012)

startrader said:


> Ten boats last week, two yesterday, one today with 160 on board.  This escalating problem of open borders bringing in ever increasing numbers of freeloaders CANNOT continue.  What a basket case we are with this farce of a government.  What is going to be the catalyst for them getting kicked out?  Gillard's shady past catching up with her perhaps?  At some stage this government just has to blow itself up.





Is it possible she wants to leave the worst mess possible for Abbott?

One gets the feeling she will do nothing about this even if she remains in power for another 12 months or more and leave massive debt, massive welfare payments to all these arrivals even if they are not real refugees and an awful mess with the carbon tax which she has tried to voter proof.

Surely none of this is in the best interest of this country...


----------



## DB008 (24 July 2012)

...another day, another boat...


----------



## drsmith (24 July 2012)

DB008 said:


> ...another day, another boat...



Just one ?

That would indicate they're trending down.


----------



## noco (24 July 2012)

DB008 said:


> ...another day, another boat...




Yes and all will be Muslims. We need more of these like a hole in the head.


----------



## Julia (24 July 2012)

sails said:


> Is it possible she wants to leave the worst mess possible for Abbott?
> 
> One gets the feeling she will do nothing about this even if she remains in power for another 12 months or more and leave massive debt, massive welfare payments to all these arrivals even if they are not real refugees and an awful mess with the carbon tax which she has tried to voter proof.
> 
> Surely none of this is in the best interest of this country...



I'm not sure why you would have any expectations of Ms Gillard acting in the best interests of Australia?
She has only ever acted in her own political self interest.  At present that is served by stringing her tenure out in the hope something will happen to either stuff up the Libs or elevate her own miserable situation.


----------



## Happy (25 July 2012)

noco said:


> Yes and all will be Muslims. We need more of these like a hole in the head.




Why don't we have a religious quota?
% Non-believers
% Christians
% Hindu
% ...

We have the latest Census and the fastest growing religion was not hard to guess, that effectively displaces other religions.


----------



## Calliope (26 July 2012)

It will be interesting to see how our "Border Protection" taxi service, manages to escort these illegals to Christmas Island.



> INDONESIAN search and rescue authorities are searching for an asylum-seeker vessel which says it's in distress off Madura Island, northwest of Bali.
> 
> The vessel was believed to be carrying between 60 and 70 passengers, who said the boat was taking on water.
> 
> *Those aboard spoke to the ABC overnight and expressed concern that Indonesia, rather than Australia, was coordinating the search.*



 (My bolds)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ndonesian-waters/story-fn9hm1gu-1226435365579


----------



## dutchie (26 July 2012)

If we have anything to do with the taxi service to a boat that is *north* of Indonesia then we are the biggest mugs around. 

If this happens then Julia should resign!


----------



## DB008 (26 July 2012)

dutchie said:


> If we have anything to do with the taxi service to a boat that is *north* of Indonesia then we are the biggest mugs around.
> 
> If this happens then Julia should resign!




It's crazy.

Forget the Navy, Gillard and Co are looking at the problem from this angle....


----------



## sails (26 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> It will be interesting to see how our "Border Protection" taxi service, manages to escort these illegals to Christmas Island.
> 
> (My bolds)
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ndonesian-waters/story-fn9hm1gu-1226435365579





This boat was taken back to Indonesia by Indonesian search and rescue despite a crew member contacting Australian authorities.  So much for saying the boats can't go back to Indonesia:



> Sutrisno, the chief of the East Java search and rescue agency, said the group would be taken to Surabaya in East Java on Friday and handed over to immigration authorities.




Read more from the West Australian: Boat in distress found near Bali


----------



## Julia (26 July 2012)

> Sutrisno, the chief of the East Java search and rescue agency, said the group would be taken to Surabaya in East Java on Friday and handed over to immigration authorities.



Exactly what the people on the boat didn't want.  Might be a small deterrent, or maybe just a warning to all those following that they should not sound the distress call whilst still so close to Indonesia.


----------



## OGRooney (26 July 2012)

Liberal Anti immigrant rhetoric is solely aimed at grabbing the bogan vote... More people = more money, pretty basic economic principle. 

The title of this thread is ridiculous - if you don't know the difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker, then you probably shouldn't be discussing the issue in public. The definition of either word does not depend on your political persuasion.


----------



## DB008 (27 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> Liberal Anti immigrant rhetoric is solely aimed at grabbing the bogan vote... More people = more money, pretty basic economic principle.
> 
> The title of this thread is ridiculous - if you don't know the difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker, then you probably shouldn't be discussing the issue in public. The definition of either word does not depend on your political persuasion.




I would have thought that if someone was in trouble in their home country (eg; civil war, IE Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq), you'd hop to a neighbouring country (like Turkey) and seek refuge there, not through 5-10 countries hoping to get free housing/medical/rent assistance and become a dole bludger the rest of your life.....


----------



## pilots (27 July 2012)

Dannyboy, you are so right, they get here and then want to change our country it the way they want it, we are getting SHAFFETED by the do gooders.


----------



## dutchie (27 July 2012)

DB008 said:


> I would have thought that if someone was in trouble in their home country (eg; civil war, IE Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq), you'd hop to a neighbouring country (like Turkey) and seek refuge there, not through 5-10 countries hoping to get free housing/medical/rent assistance and become a dole bludger the rest of your life.....




What would you do if the green light was on in Oz. You would be dumb to stay in Turkey!


----------



## sptrawler (27 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> Liberal Anti immigrant rhetoric is solely aimed at grabbing the bogan vote... More people = more money, pretty basic economic principle.
> 
> The title of this thread is ridiculous - if you don't know the difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker, then you probably shouldn't be discussing the issue in public. The definition of either word does not depend on your political persuasion.




At last an intellectual on the forum, I can feel a distinct lift in the quality of posts already.
Thanks for the post OGRooney.


----------



## Calliope (27 July 2012)

pilots said:


> Dannyboy, you are so right, they get here and then want to change our country it the way they want it, we are getting SHAFFETED by the do gooders.




Talk about do-gooders.



> "We are going to take them to Surabaya so that immigration officials can deal with them," the Indonesian spokesman said.
> 
> *Refugee advocate Ian Rintoul claimed Australia should have gone to the aid of the passengers despite their very close proximity to Indonesia.
> 
> "It will be a complete disaster for the asylum seekers because they will be indefinitely detained in appalling conditions in Indonesia," Mr Rintoul*




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ie-only-sos-plea/story-fndo1uez-1226436220053


----------



## Glen48 (27 July 2012)

Its not the fault of the escapee's this is nearly down to USA wanting to declare war on ever one and picking Fights , we should be slipping a bill to USA to help pay for all this.


----------



## OGRooney (27 July 2012)

DB008 said:


> I would have thought that if someone was in trouble in their home country (eg; civil war, IE Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq), you'd hop to a neighbouring country (like Turkey) and seek refuge there, not through 5-10 countries hoping to get free housing/medical/rent assistance and become a dole bludger the rest of your life.....




Yeah, If we get invaded, I'm going to jump on the first boat to Indonesia, totally. 

Did you support Australia and America's decision to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? If so, stop whinging about refugees... war = refugees. 

SPtrawler - Thanks for the support mate


----------



## Miss Hale (27 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> The title of this thread is ridiculous - if you don't know the difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker, then you probably shouldn't be discussing the issue in public. The definition of either word does not depend on your political persuasion.




I thought it was not allowed to call these people asylum seekers anymore, I seem to recall all the newspapers were told they were *not *the be referred to as asylum seekers but as immigrants.


----------



## Calliope (27 July 2012)

Miss Hale said:


> I thought it was not allowed to call these people asylum seekers anymore, I seem to recall all the newspapers were told they were *not *the be referred to as asylum seekers but as immigrants.




I think what you are referring to Miss Hale is that it is politically incorrect to call illegal immigrants "illegal immigrants" even if they come here "illegally" by boat without any papers. "Asylum seeker" is the politically correct term.


----------



## Miss Hale (27 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> I think what you are referring to Miss Hale is that it is politically incorrect to call illegal immigrants "illegal immigrants" even if they come here "illegally" by boat without any papers. "Asylum seeker" is the politically correct term.




You may be right Calliope, only I am sure I have been ticked off for calling these people arriving by boats asylum seekers and not immigrants  (not on here, in conversations with people I mean). Or maybe this politically correct stuff has just made me totally confused   :1zhelp:


----------



## sails (27 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> Liberal Anti immigrant rhetoric is solely aimed at grabbing the bogan vote... More people = more money, pretty basic economic principle.
> 
> The title of this thread is ridiculous - if you don't know the difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker, then you probably shouldn't be discussing the issue in public. The definition of either word does not depend on your political persuasion.





Well then why did labor politicise it in 2007?   And no need to insult people.  Just because the thread starter may not know the difference doesn't mean to say none of us do.  Shame on you for being so petty.

Labor gave bipartisan support for the Pacific solution which clearly was a superior system giving genuine refugees a place of refuge while discouraging people coming to free load from our welfare.  Yes, the Pacific Solution was implemented with bipartisan support from labor.  In 2002 Gillard agreed with turning the boats back.  Google and you will find.

Why should asylum seekers get preferential treatment over struggling Aussies?  Houses supplied to them with around $9,000 of furniture?

And, if an Aussie fraudulently claims welfare to which he/she is not entitled, they face criminal conviction.  But why do so many asylum seekers remain on our welfare when both Bowen and the UN state that large numbers coming here are NOT genuine refugees?

Do we have an obligation to give asylum seekers who are not fleeing persecution our welfare at the expense of our own?

Sources of non-refugee comments:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ars-in-detention/story-e6freuy9-1226180501361

This is an older article, however, many more asylum seekers have turned up which is unlikely to have changed the flow of non-refugees arriving:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/send-asylum-rejects-home-un-urges-20101218-191do.html


----------



## Julia (27 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> SPtrawler - Thanks for the support mate




Ever come across a tongue in cheek post?  A bit of irony?


----------



## sptrawler (27 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> Yeah, If we get invaded, I'm going to jump on the first boat to Indonesia, totally.
> 
> Did you support Australia and America's decision to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? If so, stop whinging about refugees... war = refugees.
> 
> SPtrawler - Thanks for the support mate




No worries OG, 
If we get invaded and you manage to get on the first boat out of here, check and see if I'm onboard. If not give me a call on my mobile, could you mate.

Yeh I know what you mean about Iraq and Afghanistan = refugees, there is a conga line of them through the middle east, Pakistan and India. Apparently they are heading here, poor buggers only managed to escape with pockets full of money and satellite phones to ring the ABC.
It's an absolute tragedy.
Julia, cut me a bit of slack I'm trying not to swallow that tongue in my cheek.


----------



## Julia (27 July 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Julia, cut me a bit of slack I'm trying not to swallow that tongue in my cheek.



I'm relieved to know you've not undergone an asylum seeking conversion on the road to Australia.
(with apologies to whomever coined the phrase 'a conversion on the road to Damascus'.
Calliope might know who that was, so versed in classicism he is.)


----------



## Calliope (28 July 2012)

Julia said:


> I'm relieved to know you've not undergone an asylum seeking conversion on the road to Australia.
> (with apologies to whomever coined the phrase 'a conversion on the road to Damascus'.
> Calliope might know who that was, so versed in classicism he is.)




Paul was going to Damascus to beat up some Christians when he "saw the light."



> The Conversion of Paul the Apostle (anglicized from the Latin Vulgate section title: Conversio Sauli), as depicted in the Christian Bible, refers to an event reported to have taken place in the life of Paul of Tarsus which led him to cease persecuting early Christians and to become a follower of Jesus; it is normally dated by researchers to AD 33–36. The phrases Pauline conversion, Damascene conversion, and *road to Damascus *allude to this event.



Wikipedia


----------



## OGRooney (29 July 2012)

sails said:


> Well then why did labor politicise it in 2007?   And no need to insult people.  Just because the thread starter may not know the difference doesn't mean to say none of us do.  Shame on you for being so petty.




As I've already said; to grab the bogan vote/affirm a tighter grip on power/seize power, whichever party uses this scare tactic - Liberal, Labour or Nazi, effect and motivations are the same. (We haven't got to the point where the Libs burn down Parliament, knock off Julia and blame the Immigrants just yet 

I'll say it again; neither party are interested in stopping immigration or putting a cap on an increasing population, so I'd be more pissed off at your politicians than the immigrants or asylum seekers.

I agree with you about our population; there's already too many kids slipping through the public school system and ending up unemployed or in Jail, In my honest opinion, if I were Prime Minister I'd be putting a temporary halt on  immigration until some decent headway could be made in public health and education. I'm worried about whats going to happen when all these kids finish their apprenticeships and realize there can only be so many plumbers/carpenters/electricians in each town.


----------



## OGRooney (29 July 2012)

Calliope said:


> I think what you are referring to Miss Hale is that it is politically incorrect to call illegal immigrants "illegal immigrants" even if they come here "illegally" by boat without any papers. "Asylum seeker" is the politically correct term.




It's not the politcally correct term, it is the correct term; an Asylum Seeker or Refugee can't be an illegal immigrant by definition - they are not immigrating, they are seeking refuge/ asylum. You can twist words around all you like but the definitions of the words and the international laws remain the same.


----------



## sptrawler (29 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> I agree with you about our population; there's already too many kids slipping through the public school system and ending up unemployed or in Jail, In my honest opinion, if I were Prime Minister I'd be putting a temporary halt on  immigration until some decent headway could be made in public health and education. I'm worried about whats going to happen when all these kids finish their apprenticeships and realize there can only be so many plumbers/carpenters/electricians in each town.




That's not to mention the push to import labour from China.


----------



## DB008 (29 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> It's not the politcally correct term, it is the correct term; an Asylum Seeker or Refugee can't be an illegal immigrant by definition - *they are not immigrating, they are seeking refuge/asylum.* You can twist words around all you like but the definitions of the words and the international laws remain the same.




WRONG

So by virtue of your definition, an asylum seeker/refugee from Iraq/Afghanistan, it is perfectly OK to travel through 5-10 countries (which are NOT in a civil war - IE, Turkey/Indonesia/India/Sri-Lanka), to come here?

Why not stop in Indonesia/Thailand/India????? 

Answer; they want a free lunch and the current Government is giving it to them....




​

(Meanwhile, Noco's son is fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan)


----------



## OGRooney (29 July 2012)

Yes, I think if some prick of a country has come in and bombed your country then yeah, you've got the right to choose a new bloody home, and if you just so happen to pick the prick of a country that bombed yours then who gives a crap.

Are any of you pissed off at foreign companies taking profits out of Australia or just at immigrants? As far as foreigners raping the country go I think the miners take the cake... but I do hate that guy at the 711 who marks up tallyhos 1100%.

Each and every one of us should take our surviving ancestors back to our own bloody countries and leave this land for the Aborigines... Personally I reckon this is a crappy idea, but seeing as you all hate immigrants so much, maybe some of you are keen.

And as for putting shame on people, shame on anyone who knows the difference between an Asylum seeker and and a refugee but chooses to deceive people for their own political ends. 

As for economic refugees which I believe your all complaining about... maybe we should stop pushing austerity measures in other countries and creating more of them, once again simple logic. You all vote for war and austerity then complain when you see it's fruit, if you wanna talk about irony


----------



## sptrawler (29 July 2012)

Yeh, lets load up the ute and take it to Canberra.


----------



## noco (30 July 2012)

Congrtaulations Julia Gillard, you have just broken the record for the most number of illegal immigrants in one year.

Please collect your prize at the next election and it will be a good one; yes darling you will be able to live in luxury at tax payers expense for the rest of you miserable life.


----------



## Calliope (30 July 2012)

This is a win for us.

[video]http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2261715022/On-board-the-SLNS-Samudura[/video]


----------



## DB008 (30 July 2012)

I'm am immigrant.
Arrived in 1985.
Never had a Gov hand-out (except Howard's $800 ($900?) handout).
Paid all my taxes.
I uphold Australian values and beliefs.
I don't want to bring in Sharia law or some other BS ideology that oppresses people, belittles women or forces them them dress like a bee-keeper.


----------



## OGRooney (31 July 2012)

DB008 said:


> I'm am immigrant.
> Arrived in 1985.
> Never had a Gov hand-out (except Howard's $800 ($900?) handout).
> Paid all my taxes.
> ...




I think immigrants who hate immigrants are hilarious. The irony won't stop flowing in this thread.


----------



## dutchie (31 July 2012)

Another boat another policy failure.

Worst year already and only half way through.

What a pathetic government.



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...nd-off-indonesia/story-fndo48ca-1226439485930


----------



## Happy (31 July 2012)

DB008 said:


> I'm am immigrant.
> Arrived in 1985.
> Never had a Gov hand-out (except Howard's $800 ($900?) handout).
> Paid all my taxes.
> ...




This attitude doesn't apply now, as high percentage is never employed 5 years after arrival.
Handouts including Social Benefits are basis for long term existence.

Longer we sit on our hands the harder it will be to keep Australia happy go lucky country.

Unfortunately looks that people should take to streets with their disapproval, as current PM Julia behaves like dictator and noting we can do about it until next election !


----------



## dutchie (31 July 2012)

OGRooney said:


> I think immigrants who hate immigrants are hilarious. The irony won't stop flowing in this thread.




I think people who imply the word hate when non was evident are hateful people themselves.


----------



## noco (31 July 2012)

dutchie said:


> Another boat another policy failure.
> 
> Worst year already and only half way through.
> 
> ...




Pathetic is not the word dutchie. I have some stronger language to describe Gillard and her government but I might be banned on this site for ever.

Gillard has broken the guiness book of records for the most number of arrivals in one month and she is quite content to sit back and do nothing.. 

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/hmas_taxi_called_again/


----------



## sails (31 July 2012)

From Bolt's Blog - sadly so many genuine refugees whose places will be taken by those with money who may not actually need our help.  1800 arrivals in July - how many Captain Emad's and other frauds in these:





HMAS Taxi called again


----------



## DB008 (1 August 2012)

Another boat...and...

*Australia to rescue boats in Indonesian waters under proposed deal as another asylum boat found*



> AUSTRALIAN patrol boats will soon be able to rescue asylum seekers in Indonesian waters as another boat has been intercepted.
> 
> The Australian Customs Vessel Hervey Bay intercepted the suspected irregular entry vessel west of Cocos (Keeling) Islands overnight.
> 
> ...











http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/australia-to-rescue-boats-in-indonesian-waters-under-proposed-deal-as-another-asylum-boat-found/story-fndo20i0-1226440067241


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2012)

_AUSTRALIAN patrol boats will soon be able to rescue asylum seekers in Indonesian waters as another boat has been intercepted._

I heard that on the ABC this morning and it was presented as if were an achievement by the Gillard government. The example given was that it would allow Australia to rescue boats that are even north of Indonesia, like the one last week that was north of Bali. No mention of Australia receiving compensation for taking over Indonesia's responsibility. I suppose the Asia Pacific solution Gillard is touting is to attain a similar agreement with the other nations in our region. 

The stupidity of this is beyond belief. Set off from anywhere in Indonesia and when just a few miles off their coast make an SOS call to the Australian navy or even the ABC. 

I truly believe that Gillard proposed the Malaysia solution, not because it would stop the boats, but because she knew it would be rejected. This would allow her to fumble through to the next election while blaming the opposition for any deaths at sea. Once the election is over and the coalition are in power, she can resume her condemnation of the inhuman solution being adopted by the coalition. She could say with all honesty that she never implemented an offshore solution unlike the heartless coalition. The churches, the ABC and other left media would simply forget that there was ever a Malaysian solution proposal and get back to what they are best at doing; condemning the coalition for its inhumanity.


----------



## dutchie (1 August 2012)

North Pole       <-->      South Pole


Howard's Solution   <-->    Gillard's Solution


Effective      <-->       disasterous


----------



## Julia (1 August 2012)

> AUSTRALIAN patrol boats will soon be able to rescue asylum seekers in Indonesian waters as another boat has been intercepted.



There was some follow up on this on Radio National's "Drive" program this evening.  Apparently the statement was made by Indonesia and ABC Radio cannot find anyone in the government who knows anything about it.
Looks as though the Indonesians are so utterly confident they have us wound round their little fingers they can now even make announcements on our behalf.
What a farce.


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2012)

Julia said:


> There was some follow up on this on Radio National's "Drive" program this evening.  Apparently the statement was made by Indonesia and ABC Radio cannot find anyone in the government who knows anything about it.
> Looks as though the Indonesians are so utterly confident they have us wound round their little fingers they can now even make announcements on our behalf.
> What a farce.




Obviously Gillard is going to say, that she has a working relationship with Indonesia. 
She really is losing it, sad just very sad.
If this manner of government was happening in a third world country, we would be sending troops in.LOL,LOL


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2012)

Julia said:


> There was some follow up on this on Radio National's "Drive" program this evening.  Apparently the statement was made by Indonesia and ABC Radio cannot find anyone in the government who knows anything about it.
> Looks as though the Indonesians are so utterly confident they have us wound round their little fingers they can now even make announcements on our behalf.
> What a farce.




If we were to come to such an agreement with Indonesia on the assumption that Indonesia does not have the capability to manage such rescues, it should be on the basis that any refugees rescued in Indonesian waters are returned to Indonesia. That way we are ensuring the safety of the passengers, but not providing a means for our benevolence to be abused.


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2012)

bellenuit said:


> If we were to come to such an agreement with Indonesia on the assumption that Indonesia does not have the capability to manage such rescues, it should be on the basis that any refugees rescued in Indonesian waters are returned to Indonesia. That way we are ensuring the safety of the passengers, but not providing a means for our benevolence to be abused.




Oh isn't that what Abbott is saying.

Hope everyone has your insight, because if it keeps going the way it is, Indonesia will become a passenger terminal for asylum seekers. 
It won't be long before a cruise liner or converted sheep carrier arrives with 5000 onboard, I joke not.
Then the flood gates will really open, as the government will then have to decide, between military intervention or a completely open border.
This can escalate and end badly.


----------



## saham (2 August 2012)

*Really??*

I have not read the whole posts on this thread.

But, so far I gather that there are negativity on the people who arrived on boat. 

Personally, I believe that there are more illegal immigrant who arrived on plane than by boats.

I know people who arrived from NZ and England and on Aust government benefits from day one they arrived in Australia. And these people have been in Australia for over 10years and they are still on govt benefits. Govt housing etc. Are they grateful? No..they whinge on everything and yet they live in houses - eastern suburbs (Bronte, NSW) and lower north shore (NSW). Their children also on benefits. Very trendy people, have the latest fashion or gadgets. Do they want to join the workforce?No....They will find a job, with minimal hours if it is required (to maintain their benefits). They go holiday overseas once a year to visit their relatives. They are white anglo. And they still call their birth country their 'home'.

On the other hand, I know lots of immigrants from Asia and other small countries in South America who work all kind of jobs, from dawn to midnight the moment they arrived in Australia. They were highly educated and their kids grow up highly educated and have great jobs in Australia. They live very frugal, live in apartments, work different jobs etc. They don't go overseas for holiday or visit their relatives back in their birth countries once a year. 

The media reports the arrival of dodgy boats from Indonesia, but it does not report who arrived by plane and rotting the Australia system.


----------



## dutchie (2 August 2012)

How about taking care of our own refugees first?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/homeless-funding-fears-20120801-23fil.html


----------



## Calliope (2 August 2012)

*Re: Really??*



saham said:


> I have not read the whole posts on this thread.




Obviously. Your fallacious argument crops up regularly



> But, so far I gather that there are negativity on the people who arrived on boat.




Naturally. They sneak in illegally through the back door



> Personally, I believe that there are more illegal immigrant who arrived on plane than by boats



.
Plane arrivals come in legally with passports and visas.



> The media reports the arrival of dodgy boats from Indonesia, but it does not report who arrived by plane and rotting the Australia system.




Legal entry is not newsworthy.


----------



## Julia (2 August 2012)

*Re: Really??*



bellenuit said:


> If we were to come to such an agreement with Indonesia on the assumption that Indonesia does not have the capability to manage such rescues, it should be on the basis that any refugees rescued in Indonesian waters are returned to Indonesia. That way we are ensuring the safety of the passengers, but not providing a means for our benevolence to be abused.



+1.  However, I'll be surprised if this is what either the Australian or Indonesian governments have in mind.



saham said:


> I have not read the whole posts on this thread.



Might be good to do that before you offer comment.



> But, so far I gather that there are negativity on the people who arrived on boat.



Correct.  If you read the thread you will discover the reasons why.




> Personally, I believe that there are more illegal immigrant who arrived on plane than by boats.



That was true during the Howard era but apparently arrivals by boat now exceed those by plane.
Further, as Calliope has pointed out, plane arrivals come with documentation.  We know who they are.
Boat arrivals, on the other hand, destroy any documentation they may have had to make it more difficult for their origins to be traced.



> I know people who arrived from NZ and England and on Aust government benefits from day one they arrived in Australia.



People arriving from these countries are not entitled to government benefits on arrival.

Maybe check a few facts before you make inaccurate generalisations.


----------



## saham (2 August 2012)

*Re: Really??*



Julia said:


> +1.  However, I'll be surprised if this is what either the Australian or Indonesian governments have in mind.
> 
> 
> Might be good to do that before you offer comment.
> ...





I know these people very close (some are relatives by marriages). 

The regulations may have changed in the past years....but I do know lots of kiwis that came to OZ and straight to benefits and still receiving . It seemed unfair, because my family & I came as business migrants, and the regulations were very strict for us, and yet these anglo saxon people came and treated differently. Not that we wanted any handouts from govt.

The point that I would like to express that:
There are not many countries that have social welfare system like Australia. There are lots of countries that have no social welfare what so ever at all. And people who came from these countries (without social welfare, eg from Asia or south America countries), do not have 'welfare' mentality. In their birth country, if you financially failed, you could end up begging and living on the streets (with your kids). And people who are willing to risks everything to be able to live in Australia are the people who don't want to end up begging for food on the streets. They have pride. So when these people able to live in Australia, they would try everything not to beg. They don't have welfare mentality. 

One of our neighbours are Aust born, offspring  of someone who owns multinational companies, very very wealthy and yet this neighbour lives with kids in housing govt house. 

If you have to run businesses, who would you rather hire? Someone who takes sicky/smokey or someone who have lived through hardship that you yourself would never likely to endure?

I know this is a stock forum, but I see little compasion and the want to keep Australia's white policy alive. Look at the chart/stats, from Aust and abroad before planting seed of hate. Just because they came on dodgy boat, look different and don't speak English, they are not human.


----------



## sails (2 August 2012)

*Re: Really??*



saham said:


> ...I know this is a stock forum, but I see little compasion and the want to keep Australia's white policy alive. Look at the chart/stats, from Aust and abroad before planting seed of hate. Just because they came on dodgy boat, look different and don't speak English, they are not human.





If you had read this whole thread, you would find that *genuine* refugees are fine.  Colour of the skin is no issue so you can forget your sick "white" comments...

When the UN and even Chris Bowen state that large numbers of boat arrivals are NOT genuine refugees, you are being pretty silly to try and turn it into a racist thing.  Shame on you.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ars-in-detention/story-e6freuy9-1226180501361

http://www.theage.com.au/national/send-asylum-rejects-home-un-urges-20101218-191do.html


----------



## Julia (2 August 2012)

*Re: Really??*



saham said:


> I know this is a stock forum, but I see little compasion and the want to keep Australia's white policy alive. Look at the chart/stats, from Aust and abroad before planting seed of hate. Just because they came on dodgy boat, look different and don't speak English, they are not human.



You are quite inappropriately insulting all of us whose fundamental concern is the displacement of genuine, proven refugees who are languishing in violent, squalid UNHCR camps in several countries, having applied with documentation to come here.

It is nothing to do with skin colour and it's pathetically simplistic for you to suggest that.

The current influx of asylum seekers, many of whom are shown not to be genuine refugees, is preventing the admission of the above genuine people, many of whom have been waiting years in camps because they lack the financial resources to pay people smugglers.

I suggest you take your offensive views elsewhere.


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2012)

*Re: Really??*



Julia said:


> You are quite inappropriately insulting all of us whose fundamental concern is the displacement of genuine, proven refugees who are languishing in violent, squalid UNHCR camps in several countries, having applied with documentation to come here.
> 
> It is nothing to do with skin colour and it's pathetically simplistic for you to suggest that.
> 
> ...




++100

Yes, in fact many here who want to see an end put to the boat arrivals have also suggested an increase in the numbers taken from genuine refugee camps to compensate and to encourage entry through the official channels.


----------



## dutchie (3 August 2012)

On "Border Security" last night it showed an Australian Navy (or Fisheries??) boat stop an illegal Indonesian fishing boat. They fired shots in front of it to try and make it heave to but the boat ignored the shots. They then sent a inflatable to the fishing boat and boarded it. It was then towed by the Navy boat.

Towing back the illegal boats -whats the fuss? It can be and has been done.


----------



## Julia (3 August 2012)

2GB had a DLP Senator on this morning who is a member of the special Angus Houston committee to find a solution to the asylum seeker fiasco.  He said in the four weeks since the formation of the committee they have had just one two hour meeting.
Aren't they supposed to be reporting their well researched findings and recommendations when parliament returns in less than two weeks?


----------



## DB008 (3 August 2012)

Julia said:


> 2GB had a DLP Senator on this morning who is a member of the special Angus Houston committee to find a solution to the asylum seeker fiasco.  He said in the four weeks since the formation of the committee they have had just one two hour meeting.
> Aren't they supposed to be reporting their well researched findings and recommendations when parliament returns in less than two weeks?




I just went to the 2GB website and found this one.

Interesting.

http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13802#.UBslCpP8GMI.gmail


----------



## drsmith (3 August 2012)

Julia said:


> 2GB had a DLP Senator on this morning who is a member of the special Angus Houston committee to find a solution to the asylum seeker fiasco.  He said in the four weeks since the formation of the committee they have had just one two hour meeting.
> Aren't they supposed to be reporting their well researched findings and recommendations when parliament returns in less than two weeks?



Perhaps it took them 1 hour and 55 minutes to find the link.

http://greens.org.au/policies/care-for-people/immigration-and-refugees


----------



## DB008 (8 August 2012)

Brits having issues too. (Naughty YouTube Clip)


----------



## sails (8 August 2012)

Interesting article from Indonesia's perspective:



> AUSTRALIA'S policy deadlock on asylum seekers has become a major source of frustration in Indonesia with a senior politician saying there must be a "strict and clear" deterrent against people smuggling.




Indonesia is calling them illegal immigrants:



> "These illegal immigrants trying to get into Australia, and even risking their lives, are doing so in the hope that Australia would accept them since Australia is open for them."




And telling us what the majority of Aussies already know but our PM seems unconcerned:



> If Australia seriously wants to deal with it, Australia must have a strict and clear policy that explains whether they're still open or not.
> 
> "There's legal problem in Australia that there's still no strong signal from Australia's legal system that gives deterrent effect for people smuggling."




Read more from the Australian: Asylum seeker impasse frustrates Indonesia


----------



## DB008 (9 August 2012)

Maybe if there was a better policy in place (like there was, at one time) to deter people, funding of the disability scheme wouldn't be a problem, which it now is.


----------



## dutchie (10 August 2012)

Julia's got the gold for most illegal arrivals on her watch.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-...on-way-to-christmas-island/4189606?section=wa

Another big boat load another (non) policy failure.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2012)

Silver and bronze for her scoreboard as well, all in one day.



> Another two asylum seeker boats picked up




http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...um-seeker-boats-picked-up-20120810-23zp2.html


----------



## MrBurns (11 August 2012)

The word must be out over there to get in before the election........while it's easy.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2012)

2500 since Parliament rose.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## noco (11 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> 2500 since Parliament rose.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/




It will be interesting to see what Houston and his team come up with.

You can bet your bottom dollar it will favor Gillard because she would have some influence with them. That is for sure.

She already knows the solution but won't swallow her bloody pride to accept the coalition well and truly tested arrangement on Nauru, TPV  and turning the boats back. She knows damn well it will work.


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2012)

noco said:


> It will be interesting to see what Houston and his team come up with.
> 
> You can bet your bottom dollar it will favor Gillard because she would have some influence with them. That is for sure.



I know who will have influence,



> Julia Gillard's expert panel, chaired by former defence chief Angus Houston, today meets with a parliamentary advisory group in Canberra including *Senator Milne* and independent MP Tony Windsor.



My bet is a shabby compromise between Labor and the Greens where our sovereign interest comes last.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rning-back-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226427881356


----------



## noco (11 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> I know who will have influence,
> 
> 
> My bet is a shabby compromise between Labor and the Greens where our sovereign interest comes last.
> ...




Yes Doc, even blind Freddie can see what is coming.


----------



## drsmith (12 August 2012)

A practical policy position would be to return those rescued in Indonesia's search and rescue zone is to return them directly to Indonesia.

Meanwhile, Chris Bowen is sharpening up his post-political career as a rug salseman.



> They are trying to get in in front of the Parliament and they’re running, if you like, a closing down sale. Because they know offshore processing is a proper deterrent.




Gillard Labor's closing down sale at its One Way Magic Carpets store has been going to two years.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3565950.htm


----------



## sptrawler (12 August 2012)

This appears to be another bit of Bowen foot in mouth.

Asked today if he believed the deadlock would be broken this week, Mr Bowen was not optimistic.

"It takes a particular type of arrogance to reject a report's recommendations before you have even seen them, when we are dealing with people's lives," he told ABC television.

Shouldn't that read, "It takes a certain type of arrogance to reject a policy that is in place and working".
He is really setting himself up for a kick in the goolies, but not to worry, he is used to it.LOL


----------



## sptrawler (13 August 2012)

Well it was all revealed today, Gillard and Bowen should have adopted the coalition policy. No wonder he looked sick yesterday, he must have read the findings of the commitee.
What an absolute bunch of goons, they stand up and say we accept the findings and are now prepared to adopt the coalition position.
If they had done that a couple of years ago we wouldn't be in the position we are now. LOL


----------



## noco (13 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well it was all revealed today, Gillard and Bowen should have adopted the coalition policy. No wonder he looked sick yesterday, he must have read the findings of the commitee.
> What an absolute bunch of goons, they stand up and say we accept the findings and are now prepared to adopt the coalition position.
> If they had done that a couple of years ago we wouldn't be in the position we are now. LOL





Can you believe this twit of a Prime Minister is claiming victory.

I believe she has persuaded Housten to run with Nauru and PNG to save face. She can now say we will go along with the panel of experts findings.

Why in the hell did she not go along with coaltition bloody 12 months ago. She could have saved the lives that have been lost at sea.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...now-for-the-vote/story-fncyva0b-1226449542255


----------



## dutchie (14 August 2012)

noco said:


> Can you believe this twit of a Prime Minister is claiming victory.
> 
> I believe she has persuaded Housten to run with Nauru and PNG to save face. She can now say we will go along with the panel of experts findings.
> 
> ...




More to the point why did they change the system in the first place, four years ago - because they have not got a clue!!

Their stupidity has cost this country billions of dollars in this matter alone.


----------



## drsmith (14 August 2012)

Hopefully now, Labor will take seriously how poisonous their relationship with the Greens is too them.

It's their adoption of Greens policies on asylum seekers late last year after their Malaysion solution collapsed that has accelerated this undignified capitulation.


----------



## Calliope (15 August 2012)

Sixty-seven illegals, mainly Palestinians, were picked up 46 nautical miles from Java by MV Parsifal and delivered to Christmas Island.

*Why?*





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...r-ship-to-rescue/story-fn59niix-1226450478515


----------



## sails (15 August 2012)

This article confirms what many of us have been concerned about - that many of these boat arrivals are not genuine refugees and are fraudulently taking the places of those genuine refugees who have waited for years for placement.

Here's an excerpt:



> *AUSTRALIA'S immigration system is subject to widespread fraud, with hundreds of people believed to be lying about their nationality to gain a visa.
> 
> A former Immigration Department official who worked at the Australian high commission in Islamabad told ABC TV last night there was "endemic fraud" in Australia's immigration system, claiming it happened "on a daily basis".
> 
> The official told the 7.30 program she used to process visa claims at the mission in Pakistan and wanted to expose the extent of the fraud in the region*





Read full story from the Australian: Immigration system beset by 'endemic fraud'


----------



## sails (15 August 2012)

Calliope said:


> Sixty-seven illegals, mainly Palestinians, were picked up 46 nautical miles from Java by MV Parsifal and delivered to Christmas Island.
> 
> *Why?*
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...r-ship-to-rescue/story-fn59niix-1226450478515




Why?  I suspect because Gillard has ordered them to do so.  Can't think of any other reason.


----------



## drsmith (15 August 2012)

Calliope said:


> Sixty-seven illegals, mainly Palestinians, were picked up 46 nautical miles from Java by MV Parsifal and delivered to Christmas Island.
> 
> *Why?*
> 
> ...



Indeed.

If they are rescued by a commercial vessel in Indonesia's search and rescue zone, why doesn't it return them to Indonesia ?


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> Indeed.
> 
> If they are rescued by a commercial vessel in Indonesia's search and rescue zone, why doesn't it return them to Indonesia ?




It would appear from the article that the asylum seekers threatened the crew of the ship.
Doesn't that constitute an act of piracy, jeez we are getting some special people comming.:1zhelp:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...seekers-force-ship-to-go-to-christmas-island/


----------



## dutchie (16 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It would appear from the article that the asylum seekers threatened the crew of the ship.
> Doesn't that constitute an act of piracy, jeez we are getting some special people comming.:1zhelp:
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...seekers-force-ship-to-go-to-christmas-island/




Current Australian Policy for this type of action -  no worries, mate.


----------



## drsmith (16 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It would appear from the article that the asylum seekers threatened the crew of the ship.
> Doesn't that constitute an act of piracy, jeez we are getting some special people comming.:1zhelp:
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...seekers-force-ship-to-go-to-christmas-island/




I wonder if The Australian's Paul Kelly listened to Tony Abbott's speech in parliament on Monday,



> In the interim, Gillard is about to implement Abbott's Nauru policy. Both leaders have a deep interest in seeing it work.
> 
> Gillard needs to halt the boats and Abbott needs to have his own policy vindicated.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...e-stop-the-boats/story-e6frg74x-1226450403050

At the end of that speech, TA made it clear that he expects Labor to fail in the implementation and points out that it's only one part of Howard's policy response. He has politically positioned the Coalition for continued failure on this by Labor. 

Acceptance of the above asylum seekers for processing without question clearly indicates that Labor's closing down sale on it's one way magic carpets clearly has some time to run yet.


----------



## IFocus (16 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> I wonder if The Australian's Paul Kelly listened to Tony Abbott's speech in parliament on Monday,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting Abbott hasn't made the front page that much and the argument he has put up is more than 3 words so the public are not listening.

The Coalition are now linked to Naru and PNG in the publics mind regardless of Abbotts speech


----------



## drsmith (16 August 2012)

IFocus said:


> The Coalition are now linked to Naru and PNG in the publics mind regardless of Abbotts speech



That's the line Labor will try, but Labor is currently linked to government and the failures of government.

From the same article,



> The Australian people will not forgive Labor for elevating its moral vanity before the national interest. The reckoning will be protracted.


----------



## Julia (16 August 2012)

IFocus said:


> The Coalition are now linked to Naru and PNG in the publics mind regardless of Abbotts speech



That's fine with the coalition.  Why are you attempting to make a negative of it?
Mr Abbott and Mr Morrison have been crystal clear that the siting of detention centres on Nauru and PNG in isolation will not work.  They have insisted that the Howard policy that worked so well also included TPVs and turning back the boats.

If Labor stuff this up (99% likely) there will be no way the coalition can be held responsible.
Mr Abbott has not come this far to compromise such a prize at the end.


----------



## sails (16 August 2012)

IFocus said:


> Interesting Abbott hasn't made the front page that much and the argument he has put up is more than 3 words so the public are not listening.
> 
> The Coalition are now linked to Naru and PNG in the publics mind regardless of Abbotts speech





IFocus - the public are not as stupid as you think...or hope...


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It would appear from the article that the asylum seekers threatened the crew of the ship.
> Doesn't that constitute an act of piracy, jeez we are getting some special people comming.:1zhelp:
> [/url]




Again Abbott the only one calling it as it is.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...rved-sas-response--abbott-20120816-24bgj.html

I would love to have seen how it was handled, if a group onboard a plane demanded it divert from Singapore to Australia.
The lot would have been thrown in jail for an act of terrorism, asylum seekers or not. 
This government is absolutely useless, the goon show at its best.


----------



## dutchie (17 August 2012)

Nauru/PNG won't even go close to working without TPV's

(Come on Labor suck it in!)


----------



## drsmith (17 August 2012)

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/help/desc/#commentsmore

I can only assume he emailed Channel 9 without luck.

http://today.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=877129


----------



## drsmith (17 August 2012)

dutchie said:


> Nauru/PNG won't even go close to working without TPV's
> 
> (Come on Labor suck it in!)



Where allready up to 466 who _might_ be sent offshore.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ents/nauru_filling_fast_even_before_its_open/

Then there's the rest that might not. That will be the sign in the front window of the One Way Magic Carpet shop, directly under the faded closing down sale sign.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2012)

I think the people smuglers will be saying,  "Get in now before the next election, while the useless incompetent government is in, the door closes after the election" IMO

Why can't Gillard get over herself and call an election, at least it will give her some dignity rather than overstaying her welcome. Oh I forgot she allready has.


----------



## drsmith (17 August 2012)

The wealth of material has a lot in common with the sheer volume of boat arrivals.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-...down-manus-island-centre/4206250?WT.svl=news0

It kinda represents the current state of border protection.



> Eight boats carrying a total of 454 people have arrived since the Government announced its new offshore processing policy on Monday.
> 
> Five of those boats came in a 24-hour period as the Government rushed its legislation through the Senate.
> 
> But Labor will not say what will happen to the recent arrivals, only repeating they run the risk of being transferred to an offshore processing country.




Welcome to Australia. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



sptrawler said:


> I think the people smuglers will be saying,  "Get in now before the next election, while the useless incompetent government is in, the door closes after the election" IMO
> 
> Why can't Gillard get over herself and call an election, at least it will give her some dignity rather than overstaying her welcome. Oh I forgot she allready has.




Dignity and Julia Gillard on the same page ?? 

Wash your keystrokes.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2012)

Well doc,the only good thing from this asylum seeker rush, will be another Gillard backflip in a month or so. Watch this space TPV's and turn back the boats, for gods sake turn back the boats.
 I think it will be great viewing on t.v, the goon show, with bandaged feet, pulling the trigger again.LOL tears all round.
I can't wait to hear IFocus and So_Cynical when that one is anounced.


----------



## joea (18 August 2012)

This small extract from an article by Pearson sums up the present handling of
the process.

As Kelly put it on Wednesday: "Gillard has become the new John Howard. What a fate for a proud Labor leader! On asylum-seeker policy Labor is battered and beaten, forced into subjugation so complete and comprehensive it is difficult to imagine a comparable ignominy in recent decades. Labor is tainted by this reversal precisely because it was the issue where it declared its moral superiority over Howard while dismantling his policy. Labor's beliefs have been mugged by reality and abandoned. As the Houston report makes clear, Labor was blind to the power of pull factors. It substituted moral self-righteousness for sound policy. The Australian people will not forgive Labor for elevating its moral vanity before the national interest. The reckoning will be protracted."

However I agree with a number of articles. Labor's heart is not in this back flip. That is very clear.
Gillard is awash in a sea of very bad policy's decision, for which there is no one to blame 
but herself. When her ministers offered sensible alternatives, she denied them the opportunity.

joea


----------



## drsmith (18 August 2012)

> The Australian people will not forgive Labor for elevating its moral vanity before the national interest. The reckoning will be protracted."




And that was before Paul Kelly came to this realisation,



> If you think this week solved the political divisions over border protection then you are misguided. This issue will only deepen as a public policy cancer because there is little prospect the boats will be stopped.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...lum-seeker-boats/story-e6frgd0x-1226452912689


----------



## drsmith (18 August 2012)

joea said:


> However I agree with a number of articles. Labor's heart is not in this back flip. That is very clear.



Very clear to Tony Abbott. That I would suggest is one reason why he would not accept Labor's Malaysia solution.

The following contribution from Kevin Rudd goes to the heart of what is wrong with the current Labor Party,



> Speaking at a function in Melbourne last night, Mr Rudd said he had been carrying out the will of the voters at the federal election in closing asylum-seeker processing centres in the Pacific.




He's now blaming the electorate for electing them. 

No worries Kev. Labor won't have to worry about that again for a very long time.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/editpost.php?p=724194&do=editpost


----------



## joea (18 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> Very clear to Tony Abbott. That I would suggest is one reason why he would not accept Labor's Malaysia solution.




It will be interesting to see how the immigrants are handled if the Coalition are elected.
Its been a few years since (a system that did a job), was broken and dismantled.

As they say time marches on, so any system that worked may need a polish up after a new coat of 
paint.

joea


----------



## drsmith (18 August 2012)

It was only ever a crude solution, but it did the job.

A better solution would come with regional co-operation, but on this at the moment, SE Asia would simply see us as a joke. Diplomacy with our SE Asian neighbours I suspect will be the key to a better solution.

A good start will be to indicate we won't be a soft target.


----------



## Julia (18 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> It was only ever a crude solution, but it did the job.
> 
> A better solution would come with regional co-operation, but on this at the moment, SE Asia would simply see us as a joke. Diplomacy with our SE Asian neighbours I suspect will be the key to a better solution.
> 
> A good start will be to indicate we won't be a soft target.



Agree.  Australia must be a laughing stock around the world.
Imo much will depend on what happens to those asylum seekers who have been rescued and taken to Christmas Island since the legislation to re-open Nauru and PNG was passed.
If they are not sent offshore, albeit in tents or whatever, that will just about be the end of the government's minimal remaining credibility.

Any bets as to what will happen to these people?
Will they follow their predecessors and be admitted to the community because facilities offshore are not yet 5 star air conditioned luxury?


----------



## joea (19 August 2012)

Julia said:


> Agree.  Australia must be a laughing stock around the world.
> Imo much will depend on what happens to those asylum seekers who have been rescued and taken to
> Christmas Island since the legislation to re-open Nauru and PNG was passed.




Well would Australia be the laughing stock, or would the Labor party, Gillard and her ministers
and finally the faceless men be the laughing stock????

It is interesting that the media can state what is wrong with the current policy, can state Abbott's policy
and every square inch of the Houston report and also tell what should happen and why!!
But the only thing they do not tell us is what is happening with the people arriving and where they are 
being housed etc. etc.

So basically they report on everything but what is actually happening with the immigrants.

But that would have them getting off their ****, out of the office etc.
That's right, no air conditioning in the real world at Christmas Island and Darwin.

joea


----------



## joea (19 August 2012)

On another thread illegal versus asylum, has been mentioned.

Asylum seekers', 'illegal immigrants' and entry without a visa   Back to Search
Document Type:
Standards of Practice
Standard Type:
Advisory Guidelines
Date:
12 Mar 2012

The legal status of people who have entered Australia by boat without a visa is complex and potentially confusing. Their entry is not legally authorised but is not a criminal offence. The Australian Government usually refers to such entrants as "unauthorised boat arrivals" or "irregular maritime arrivals" but they are also "unlawful non-citizens" under the Migration Act.

Entrants by boat without a visa are entitled to seek asylum and, in practice, almost all of them do so. If the Government’s initial processing suggests they may have a valid case, they are classified as "asylum seekers" and allowed to stay in Australia while the claim is being finally determined. They remain "unlawful non-citizens" until their claim is approved (whereupon they get a permanent protection visa) or they receive a "bridging visa" pending finalisation of their claim. If their claim is rejected, they have not committed an offence but are liable to deportation.

Most entrants by boat without a visa do not seek to evade the authorities upon arrival. Instead, they seek to establish a legal right to stay as a refugee. Their position is very different from those people, including many who arrive with a short-term visa, who seek to remain permanently in the country on a clandestine basis (that is, "over-stayers").

In these circumstances, great care must be taken to avoid describing people who arrived by boat without a visa in terms that are likely to be inaccurate or unfair in relation to at least some of them. This can arise, for example, if the terms can reasonably be interpreted as implying criminality or other serious misbehaviour on the part of all or many people who arrive in this manner.

Depending on the specific context, therefore, terms such as "illegal immigrants" or "illegals" may constitute a breach of the Council’s Standards of Practice on these grounds. The risk of breach can usually be avoided by using a term such as "asylum seekers" although in some cases, of course, the context may require reference to their unlawful or unauthorised entry or their status as unlawful non-citizens pending determination of their claims (if they do not have bridging visas).



Note: This Guideline replaces the Council’s earlier Guideline No. 288, dated October 2009.  

joea


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2012)

> Asylum seekers', 'illegal immigrants' and entry without a visa Back to Search
> Document Type: Standards of Practice
> Standard Type: Advisory Guidelines
> Date: 12 Mar 2012






> Note: This Guideline replaces the Council’s earlier Guideline No. 288, dated October 2009.



I'm curious to know what it said before or even before Kevin Rudd came to office.


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2012)

> JULIA Gillard says she doesn't expect asylum-seeker boats to slow in coming weeks as people-smugglers try to drum up clients to beat Labor's tough new offshore processing regime




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...shore-processing/story-fn9hm1gu-1226453456619

Philip Ruddock on Andrew Bolt's show this morning made the point that the government faces a much bigger backlog of asylum seekers in SE Asia than he did at the time of his Pacific Solution. One example he gave was 100,000 in Malaysia as opposed to 20,000 in his time.


----------



## joea (21 August 2012)

Wonder if there is a muso out there that can do an Australian version of the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=wq_lhlIn1e0

joea


----------



## Glen48 (23 August 2012)

This one will make you think and it should be passed around all our friends!! 



Last week sadly two Tasmanians were lost at sea. These boys were Tasmanian taxpayers but more importantly they were Tasmanian sons, brothers, partners of Tasmanians. The authorities searched the best they could with the resources they had at hand and then stopped searching. Their families and friends held a fund raiser at the Snug Tavern to raise money to get a helicopter to continue searching for the boys.

My question to anyone who might be interested is why the families and friends had to raise money to get a helicopter when half the Australian Navy are still out looking for the two hundred boat people who have never paid taxes and who aren’t Australian citizens. I am not against helping anyone who needs a hand but you have to ask where the government's priorities lie - shouldn't we be helping our own with at least the same enthusiasm, if nothing else ???


----------



## sails (27 August 2012)

Why this government won't accept that the Pacific Solution needs to be used in it's entirely rather than just pluck the offshore component is bizarre, imo.  Abbott mentioned that these people are coming here for permanent residency rather than asylum.  Surely TPVs are an important part of removing the pull factor?

Another 77 asylum seekers intercepted by Australian Navy

And with 80 more yesterday: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...at-for-navy-taxi/story-fndo317g-1226458005735

And 80 on the 25th: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...boat-intercepted/story-fndo48ca-1226457879707


----------



## sails (27 August 2012)

And another boat today  with 165 on board.  Another two policy failures for Julia Gillard today.

Navy intercepts second asylum seeker boat


----------



## drsmith (27 August 2012)

A boat a day and the Greens have their way.


----------



## sails (27 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> A boat a day and the Greens have their way.




2 boats  with 245 passengers today.


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2012)

Apparently feeding them isn't a problem.


----------



## DB008 (28 August 2012)

*Nauru Capacity Reached.....*



sails said:


> Another 77 asylum seekers intercepted by Australian Navy[/URL]
> 
> And with 80 more yesterday: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...at-for-navy-taxi/story-fndo317g-1226458005735
> 
> And 80 on the 25th: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...boat-intercepted/story-fndo48ca-1226457879707






sails said:


> And another boat today  with 165 on board. Navy intercepts second asylum seeker boat






sails said:


> 2 boats  with 245 passengers today.





And.....that's it folk.




> *Nauru processing centre to be ready to take boatpeople by September*
> 
> *“The capacity will be 500 by the end of September,”* Immigration Minister Chris Bowen said of the former detention facility on Nauru set up by the Howard government, but which has been closed since 2007.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/labor-boosts-humanitarian-refugee-intake/story-fn9hm1gu-1226456602428

I take it, that offshore processing (Nauru) was PLAN B. So, what is PLAN C or D?


----------



## pixel (28 August 2012)

*Re: Nauru Capacity Reached.....*



DB008 said:


> I take it, that offshore processing (Nauru) was PLAN B. So, what is PLAN C or D?




Even more worrying: The costs of building and maintaining the centres have ballooned close to $2 Billion!
How long can we afford to fork out *hundreds of thousands for each and every queue jumper* that wants a better life here  (not to mention the wasted tax dollars that support the professional protesters.)


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2012)

Isn't it funny how reporters can phrase things to bend reality.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...o-back-asylum-seeker-deal-20120828-24xv9.html

How can they say "Labors revived Pacific Solution".
What part of the solution was Labors? Actually what part of reviving it was labors, they were forced into it.
They dismantled it and stuffed up, then in the end HAD TO ADMIT FAILURE AND ADOPT THE COALITION PACIFIC SOLUTION.
What is going on with these reporters they look stupid.


----------



## drsmith (28 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> How can they say "Labors revived Pacific Solution".



The irony is that in its present form, it won't work.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8523177/two-more-boat-arrivals


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> The irony is that in its present form, it won't work.




The funny thing is doc, they will blame the Abbott for it not working and the press will run with it.
Is there any wonder the press is in decline in Australia, what a bunch of fools. 
It is only a matter of time before people don't buy papers for the adverts, they allready don't buy them for intelligent reporting. 
The only ones who don't believe this are the reporters themselves, they really need to sit back and say, is this news or just my bent on it.
If we just want their bent on it, we can get that from the forum.
Best they get back to REPORTING and not blogging or they will go the way of the dinosaurs. 
Take that to the bank.


----------



## drsmith (28 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> The funny thing is doc, they will blame the Abbott for it not working and the press will run with it.



the main reason it won't work is because Labor's heart is not in it and they are most likely sufficiently deluded into thinking the above is a winning political strategy. It would also upset their Green partners in government too much if it did work.

TA knows offshore detention alone won't work and has stated so in parliament. He expects Labor to eventually cave in on the other elements such as TPV's and turning back the boats.


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> the main reason it won't work is because Labor's heart is not in it and they are most likely sufficiently deluded into thinking the above is a winning political strategy. It would also upset their Green partners in government too much if it did work.
> 
> TA knows offshore detention alone won't work and has stated so in parliament. He expects Labor to eventually cave in on the other elements such as TPV's and turning back the boats.




So the back flip on carbon tax, same reason? They don't have their heart in it? Or is it for political expediency, risky game, that one.
But pension stakes are high.LOL


----------



## Julia (28 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It is only a matter of time before people don't buy papers for the adverts, they allready don't buy them for intelligent reporting.



Perhaps I'm the lone reader of newspapers who does find intelligent commentary and reporting in "The Australian".
Wouldn't there be simply no sales of papers if no one found value in what they read?


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2012)

Julia said:


> Perhaps I'm the lone reader of newspapers who does find intelligent commentary and reporting in "The Australian".
> Wouldn't there be simply no sales of papers if no one found value in what they read?




Well the circulation statistics on newspapers over the last decade, would indicate that not everyone has your passion.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/12/latest-newspaper-circulation-figures-not-a-nice-set-of-numbers/

Also call up a graph on Fairfax share price over the last ten years. Not pretty


----------



## Calliope (29 August 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well the circulation statistics on newspapers over the last decade, would indicate that not everyone has your passion.




That's their misfortune. For a paltry $4.50 a week they can read The Australian on line.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/get...p_header_157x86_120Q&sourceCode=TAWEB_MPL120A


----------



## drsmith (29 August 2012)

The Howard government had 1500 people arrive in the six weeks after it introduced offshore processing according to Chris Bowen, but Labor is well on the way to bettering that, by some margin.



> Since the government said it would reopen Nauru and Manus Island and that anyone arriving from the announcement would be at risk of being processed offshore, 18 boats have come with 1060 people. Four boats carrying more than 300 people have arrived since Monday.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/new-policies-yet-to-stem-the-boats-20120828-24yuk.html


----------



## drsmith (31 August 2012)

It would appear they can be sent back,



> A senior source for Indonesia's search and rescue authority, Basarnas, has told the ABC of an overnight plan to transfer the survivors from the Australian Navy ship HMAS Maitland to Indonesian authorities.




Meanwhile, another boat,



> Meanwhile, a customs boat intercepted 31 asylum seekers north of the Cocos Islands overnight.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-31/asylum-boat-survivors-being-taken-to-indonesia/4234704


----------



## Calliope (31 August 2012)

> SEAWATER has gushed into the corroded hull of a patrol boat in the waters off Christmas Island,* dealing a fresh blow to the navy's ability to rescue and intercept asylum-seeker vessels.*
> 
> The incident aboard HMAS Bathurst is the latest setback for the patrol boat fleet, which is literally cracking up under the high tempo operations required to meet the surge in asylum-seeker vessels coming to Australia



.

What a shame. Perhaps the Navy will contract out their ferrying duties to a private company.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...vys-patrol-fleet/story-e6frg8yo-1226462316958


----------



## drsmith (31 August 2012)

Calliope said:


> .
> What a shame.



This could be our salvation, and Labor's secret plan.

If the asylum seekers themselves come to the conclusion that there's a greater prospect of our boats sinking than theirs, it might just slow the flow.


----------



## Happy (31 August 2012)

As long as we behave like suckers, we will be taken advantage of.

If country shopping would be met with: 'never to be allowed to settle in Australia', at least would make them to find another sucker country.

Like NZ, that is back door entry to Australia after anybody gets citizenship over there, but intended always to settle here.

Like polygamy, not leagl, yet normal in certain circles in Australia.


----------



## sails (31 August 2012)

drsmith said:


> This could be our salvation, and Labor's secret plan.
> 
> If the asylum seekers themselves come to the conclusion that there's a greater prospect of our boats sinking than theirs, it might just slow the flow.




Why this is a "blow" is beyond me.  It seems our navy fleet is wearing out transporting people to Christmas Island.



> SEAWATER has gushed into the corroded hull of a patrol boat in the waters off Christmas Island, dealing a fresh blow to the navy's ability to rescue and intercept asylum-seeker vessels.
> 
> The incident aboard HMAS Bathurst is the latest setback for the patrol boat fleet, which is literally cracking up under the high tempo operations required to meet the surge in asylum-seeker vessels coming to Australia.




Hole in boat a new blow to navy's patrol fleet


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2012)

Apparently a few ships sailed past the stricken vessel and didn't stop.
I wonder if this is a consequence of what transpired, when the merchant ship enroute to Singapore picked up asylum seekers. Then  the situation required the ships master deviate a considerable distance to Christmas Island.
Again a stuff up by Gillard, Abbott at the time said a response team should have been sent to assist the captain of the ship. Nothing was done, now ships maybe aren't offering assistance, more deaths at sea.
This government is really slow to realise, for every action there is a reaction.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/ships-ignored-survivors-pleas-20120831-2551a.html


----------



## Julia (31 August 2012)

Has anyone watched the series of three programs on SBS, Tues, Wed & Thurs, "Go back to where you came from"?
This was followed by a special edition of "Insight" this evening.
Participants included Peter Reith, Angry Anderson, Michael Smith, Catherine Deveny, Allan Asher, and another woman, an acress whose name I can't recall.

It was quite confronting.  Full marks to Jenny Brockie for objective facilitation of the discussion tonight.


----------



## IFocus (1 September 2012)

Julia said:


> Has anyone watched the series of three programs on SBS, Tues, Wed & Thurs, "Go back to where you came from"?
> This was followed by a special edition of "Insight" this evening.
> Participants included Peter Reith, Angry Anderson, Michael Smith, Catherine Deveny, Allan Asher, and another woman, an acress whose name I can't recall.
> 
> It was quite confronting.  Full marks to Jenny Brockie for objective facilitation of the discussion tonight.




Haven't seen it but do remember this bit....A friend was discussing it yesterday said it was excellent but did favour the left side of the story a little but as you say it was apparently confronting can be viewed on the net.

Reith rewrites history to hide the shame of children overboard lie



> ENOUGH, Peter Reith. It has been infuriating hearing the former defence minister repeat all this week that the Children Overboard scandal was just ''a minor incident, long finished'', just ''a small thing'', a ''bit of a stuff-up'' and that he has nothing to answer for.
> 
> While talking about his role in SBS's challenging TV series Go Back to Where You Came From, Reith has tried to both rewrite history and conveniently ignore it, and with his cavalier sidestepping of responsibility he is insulting every Australian who was and still is affected by one of the most shameful and deeply divisive moments in our political history.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...erboard-lie-20120831-255u3.html#ixzz25B3cxW5y


----------



## Julia (1 September 2012)

IFocus said:


> Haven't seen it but do remember this bit....A friend was discussing it yesterday said it was excellent but did favour the left side of the story a little



Overall, it was pretty balanced, I thought, except for Catherine Deveny who was unbelievably sanctimonious and self righteous, not to mention utterly condemning of anyone who failed to share her ultra left view.


----------



## banco (2 September 2012)

Is anyone else concerned (and I'll try to phrase this carefully in the knowledge that it's almost verboten to express such sentiments) that a very high proportion of the asylum intake is coming from the third world's third world (so to speak)?  I haven't seen any official figures but I'd guess the education level of the Afghani refugees is very low.

I mean if a western country was choosing where to take it's immigration intake from I would think Afghanistan would be very near the bottom of the list.


----------



## IFocus (2 September 2012)

banco said:


> Is anyone else concerned (and I'll try to phrase this carefully in the knowledge that it's almost verboten to express such sentiments) that a very high proportion of the asylum intake is coming from the third world's third world (so to speak)?  I haven't seen any official figures but I'd guess the education level of the Afghani refugees is very low.
> 
> I mean if a western country was choosing where to take it's immigration intake from I would think Afghanistan would be very near the bottom of the list.




I think the problem is 

1. Who and how many do you let in as a Asylum seekers

2. The turning such people into demons by political  parties or in our case started by Howard for political purposes then the chant taken up by people in the general population. Abbott continued the chant by using the word illegal when ever he talked about the subject.


The debate should be about number one IMHO.


----------



## Calliope (2 September 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbott continued the chant by using the word illegal when ever he talked about the subject.




Unauthorised entry* is* illegal entry.


----------



## drsmith (2 September 2012)

IFocus said:


> The debate should be about number one IMHO.



Number one is about border security, but the interests of those who vote in this country is far from number one under this third rate Green led Labor government.


----------



## sails (2 September 2012)

IFocus said:


> I think the problem is
> 
> 1. Who and how many do you let in as a Asylum seekers
> 
> ...




IF, I understand that labor gave bipartisan support to Howard's pacific solution.  If so, why did labor make it political in 2007????

And I thought we were obligated to take refugees, not just those wanting asylum to have a fully funded life at the expense of aussie tax payers.  

If they are not genuine refugees and yet pose as a refugee, then aren't they as illegal as an Aussie fraudulently claiming welfare?


----------



## drsmith (3 September 2012)

drsmith said:


> It would appear they can be sent back,




but, will they still be brought here anyway ?



> Indonesia's search and rescue agency, Basarnas, yesterday called off its search for survivors from Wednesday's sinking, which looks to have cost the lives of about 100 asylum-seekers.
> 
> *Immigration authorities are expected to decide today the immediate fate of 55 Afghan and Pakistani survivors, ethnic Hazaras, who were brought ashore at Merak, northwest Java, on Friday.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...80000-boatpeople/story-fn9hm1gu-1226463502573

My bolds.


----------



## DB008 (3 September 2012)

Hmm, are the majority of these people refugees? Paying 10k to get here doesn't seem to tick the box below...



> Refugees -
> The 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees defines a refugee as a person who:
> 
> …owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.
> ...




http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/BoatArrivals


----------



## drsmith (3 September 2012)

Opposition's assistant treasurer Mathias Cormann comments that from when John Howard announced Nauru as part of his Pacific Solution, it was up and running in 19 days. Labor it seems is taking a little longer.

Listen from about 4:40.


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2012)

Another example of the greens and labor losing the plot. They are going to look like fools, yet again.IMO
They may as well forget calling boat people asylum seekers and just say all welcome who come by boat. Oh I forgot they already tried that one.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...for-boatpeople-brain-snap-20120903-259r7.html


----------



## drsmith (5 September 2012)

$4.4m was the invoice from Indonesia for rescuing last week's asylum seekers from their waters and returning the survivors to them.



> Australia has agreed to provide an additional $4.4 million to enhance links between the two nations' search and rescue agencies.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-04/australia-indonesia-hold-asylum-seeker-co/4243338


----------



## sails (5 September 2012)

drsmith said:


> $4.4m was the invoice from Indonesia for rescuing last week's asylum seekers from their waters and returning the survivors to them.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-04/australia-indonesia-hold-asylum-seeker-co/4243338





It would seem Gillard's offshore processing is nothing but a camouflage.  It's only part of the proven Pacific Solution and TPVs and turning the boats back when safe to do so were the remaining legs of the three legged stool.

It seems Gillard wants these boat arrivals and will even pay Indonesia so our navy can go and collect them - at further taxpayer expense.  Unbelievable.

And why would she implement TPVs when it's clear her actions show she wants as many as possible to come here.  Is it for votes?  What will happen when the arrivals form their own party - they won't be voting labor then, imo.


----------



## JTLP (6 September 2012)

sails said:


> And why would she implement TPVs when it's clear her actions show she wants as many as possible to come here.  Is it for votes?  What will happen when the arrivals form their own party - they won't be voting labor then, imo.




Funny you should say this - I have a lot of friends from Sri Lanka and India - and they say they will vote Labor for life as Bob Hawke let their parents roll in so they have to repay!

CRAZY!


----------



## drsmith (6 September 2012)

A lazy three boats in a day.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/14541917/three-boats-arrive-in-24-hours/


----------



## drsmith (10 September 2012)

> "From today, any boat and any person who turns up on a boat must go to Nauru - no exception," Mr Morrison said.
> 
> "They all must go to Nauru from this point on."



Scott Morrison shouldn't be so silly. 

The island would sink under the weight.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-10/bowen-signs-nauru-processing-agreement/4252334


----------



## sails (10 September 2012)

Is this is a situation where smugglers are bringing unsuspecting passengers who are likely to be taken to offshore processing?  Once Nauru and Manus Island facilities are full, then the smugglers just carry on bring people to Christmas Island as usual?

When will this government learn they need more than just offshore processing?  But perhaps Gillard actually wants these arrivals - is it for votes?


> AUSTRALIAN authorities have intercepted a boat carrying 63 suspected asylum seekers off the West Australian coast.
> 
> It is the third boat intercepted by authorities in the past 24 hours and brings to 202 the number of passengers who have arrived in that time.





Read more: Authorities intercept 3rd boat in 24 hours


----------



## drsmith (10 September 2012)

Labor could stop the boats by unionising the smugglers and getting them to go on strike.


----------



## dutchie (11 September 2012)

Labor created a costly problem to Australia when they dismantled the successful Liberal solution.

All I can do when I see them try and extradict themselves from this self inflicted mess is to laugh my head off.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha



Imbeciles


----------



## sails (11 September 2012)

And so the expense continues: One officer for every detainee flown off Christmas Island to Nauru


And do we have to provide cleaning and cooking services as well?  Why aren't the arrivals expected to help care for themselves?  Isn't this just fostering a sense of "no responsibility"?  Why not give them rosters?



> The minister revealed Transfield, operator of Melbourne's Eastlink, will cook and clean for asylum seekers and provide transport on Nauru.




Nauru and Manus Island full before they even open


----------



## Julia (11 September 2012)

sails said:


> And do we have to provide cleaning and cooking services as well?  Why aren't the arrivals expected to help care for themselves?  Isn't this just fostering a sense of "no responsibility"?  Why not give them rosters?



That's a sensible idea.  And surely the asylum seekers themselves would prefer to be constructively occupied.
If we have Australians obliged to engage in work for the dole projects, it's hard to see why anyone wanting to come to live in Australia wouldn't be happy to make a contribution.


----------



## drsmith (12 September 2012)

Labor's lazy $5bn.



> The legislative instrument tabled by Mr Bowen says it is estimated 704 asylum seekers have died at sea since October 2009, and the cost to the budget over the next four years due to the surge in arrivals is not more than $5 billion.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...n-as-others-sent-to-nauru-20120910-25oii.html


----------



## drsmith (12 September 2012)

Labor's lazy legislation ??



> Mr Keke also anticipates possible delays to the transfer of asylum seekers because of a potential legal challenge to Australia's offshore processing legislation.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-12/nauru-doesnt-want-force-used-against-asylum-seekers/4256032

Labor will continue to flounder and the Opposition will continue to watch.



> As Immigration Minister Chris Bowen's signed declaration on Nauru as a regional processing country went to the Senate for approval yesterday, Liberal frontbencher Scott Morrison said the government must bear all responsibility for the success or failure of Nauru.
> 
> "If the government seeks support from the Coalition down the track and they have failed to take our advice and continued to resist the implementation of the full suite of Howard government measures, if they wait as Nauru fills up and fills up, our policy will be this -- you break it, you own it," the opposition immigration spokesman said.
> 
> Labor confirmed on Monday it remained in talks with the Malaysian government over the prospect of reviving the Malaysia Solution, but Home Affairs Minister Jason Clare yesterday rejected Coalition calls to tow back asylum-seeker boats, saying the policy risked the lives of navy personnel and asylum-seekers.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...a-plan-will-fail/story-fn59niix-1226472147475


----------



## sails (12 September 2012)

drsmith said:


> Labor's lazy legislation ??
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This bit says it all, imo: 



> *you break it, you own it,*" the opposition immigration spokesman said.




Labor have ignored the other vital parts of the Pacific Solution and offshore processing in isolation is clearly not working.  Labor will need to take responsibility, but just watch them try to blame Abbott...


----------



## dutchie (15 September 2012)

Wake up Australia we are being stupid.

We need this like a hole in the head.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-15/anti-us-protests-hit-sydney/4263372

Look at Europe.


----------



## sptrawler (15 September 2012)

dutchie said:


> Wake up Australia we are being stupid.
> 
> We need this like a hole in the head.
> 
> ...




Some people are going to have to do some soul searching when we have our first horrific experience. Hopefully it doesn't happen.


----------



## sails (17 September 2012)

More boats arriving.  Another two yesterday. Two asylum boats intercepted

It seems that Gillard's use of offshore processing in isolation to the rest of the pacific solution was nothing but an illusion to lift her in the polls.  It's clearly not working to stop the boats with hundreds arriving since that announcement and far more than apparently can be taken to Nauru or Mannus Is.

In an interview with Meet the Press below, Julie discusses the weekend riot and the ongoing boat arrivals:


----------



## Boggo (17 September 2012)

Anyone can see why they would want to come here !

This bit below from Pickering...

_The Gillard Government has given over $10 million of our taxes to the Islamic cause. Hard to believe? Here are just a few recipients:

The Islamic Council of QLD.
The Islamic Council of Victoria.
The Lebanese Muslim Association.
Victorian Arabic Social Services.
The Federation of Ethnic Communities.
Australian Somali Federation.
Forum on Australia Islamic relations, and 18 other cells including Islamic University Groups.

A curiously included donation was one to Gillard’s favourite football club and a $45,000 curtain enabling Islamic women to bathe in the Monash Council Pool.

It appears only the wealthy Islamic movement is worthy of our taxes while our Christian schools are about to be de-funded.

Maybe this wouldn’t be so bad if Gillard’s largesse didn’t find its way to foreign terrorist groups, which it invariably does._


----------



## sails (22 September 2012)

Another boat capsizes - when will this government stop the pull factor of permanent residency and re-introduce TPVs:



> AUSTRALIA has asked for clearance to send aircraft into Indonesian airspace to join the search for survivors of an asylum-seeker boat believed to have capsized off Java's south-west coast.
> 
> By 1pm Jakarta time two merchant vessels in the area had rescued 189 people from the wooden fishing vessel.
> 
> The boat, believed to be carrying about 200 passengers, was previously notified about 40 nautical miles south of Panaitan Island early today




Read more: Australia sends four aircraft to search for capsized asylum boat


----------



## sptrawler (22 September 2012)

Well this has to take the cake, the goon show is saying that this is due to them. What a joke, what a bunch of dick witts.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-to-nauru-and-return-home-20120922-26dcp.html

Just shows how shallow they are.

Didn't they have to be dragged kicking and screaming down this path? The policy they shut down when they got into government.
Just shows a gutless government that basically attaches itself to any doner party policy, it may be a new form of parasitic policy government.


----------



## sails (22 September 2012)

sails said:


> Another boat capsizes - when will this government stop the pull factor of permanent residency and re-introduce TPVs:
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Australia sends four aircraft to search for capsized asylum boat




Andrew Bolt asks why are they being transferred to Christmas Island when they were rescued in Indonesian waters...I agree...why?

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/another_boat_sunk/


----------



## saiter (22 September 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well this has to take the cake, the goon show is saying that this is due to them. What a joke, what a bunch of dick witts.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-to-nauru-and-return-home-20120922-26dcp.html
> 
> ...




The article that you linked was interesting.

If the asylum seekers were true refugees, then why would they want to return to their homeland?


----------



## sptrawler (22 September 2012)

Well the bigger joke is why would they ask to go back to Sri Lanka, rather than go to Nauru. Just shows how bloody stupid this government and the greens are.
What a bloody disgrace.
I think Bowen is the only one with any credibility, at least he looked as though he thought this was the right way to go, from the start.
While Bob was playing Julia as an idiot.


----------



## drsmith (22 September 2012)

Real refugees ??

Real refugees my ****. 



sptrawler said:


> What a bloody disgrace.




That's exactly what it is.


----------



## drsmith (23 September 2012)

Another 189 from Indonesian waters.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...sized-sylum-boat/story-e6frg6nf-1226479401268


----------



## Julia (23 September 2012)

That link worked.  Did you do anything differently?

Re the content, might as well just drop the whole charade of the boats.  Just phone Australia from Indonesia and we'll come to get you.


----------



## dutchie (23 September 2012)

drsmith said:


> Real refugees ??
> 
> Real refugees my ****.
> 
> ...






Economic opportunists


----------



## drsmith (23 September 2012)

Julia said:


> That link worked.  Did you do anything differently?



No. 

Perhaps on other occasions, it's been thinking you're the real Julia.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2012)

Over 10000 boat arrivals so far this year.
Over 3000 since the government announced Nauru as part of it's offshore processing policy (Aug 13).
Over 2000 this month.

All Gillard Labor has managed to do is keep it's Green bed partners happy.


----------



## Happy (29 September 2012)

​


dutchie said:


> Economic opportunists




Plus they will bring with them 'their way' of doing things including illegal behaviour, 
unless illegal boat arrival is not classified as illegal matter(?)


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2012)

Good on you, Bowen and Gillard, what a master stroke of genius to reopen Nauru and Manus Island.LOL 
By the way why did you shut them down?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tention-in-naura/story-fndo1wyv-1226483944350

Now we are bribing them to go home, I wonder how many will see it as a cash convertors?
Fly home, fly to Indonesia, come on a boat, get a bribe, fly home.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Now we are bribing them to go home, I wonder how many will see it as a cash convertors?
> Fly home, fly to Indonesia, come on a boat, get a bribe, fly home.



Labor and taxpayer money.

Not a good mix.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2012)

We give $3000 each and a flight home to 28 who want to go home and another 135 turn up.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...oats-arrive-20120929-26rpt.html#ixzz27pr37Iis

Sorry, make that 333.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d-asylum-seekers/story-e6frg6nf-1226483982918

That's the Labor way.


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2012)

Good time to buy shares in Air Asia. 
At least the standard of boat will improve, as thegovernment gauranteed rebate kicks in. Maybe they can start and supply air conditioned ferries.


----------



## Happy (29 September 2012)

> Many have secured cash to return home under reintegration packages of up to $3,000 to encourage asylum seekers to return to the countries they fled.




This labor Government will send us broke !

Cannot wait for the next one, hopefully labor and green free !!


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2012)

Happy said:


> This labor Government will send us broke !
> 
> Cannot wait for the next one, hopefully labor and green free !!




Well one thing for sure, they are going to step on a lot of their grass roots supporters in the mini budget.
Trust me it won't be pretty.LOL
Watch this space.


----------



## DB008 (30 September 2012)

The Australian Government should take some lessons from the Germans, and grow some balls. Instead, what do we get? THIS? 




> *Court rules Muslim girl must take swim class*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120929-45261.html


----------



## drsmith (30 September 2012)

Another day, another boat.

It would seem that the vast majority are now safe from the Christmas Island lottery, let alone the Nauru lottery.



> For "operational and safety reasons" 134 people are to be transferred to Darwin for initial security, health and identity checks.
> 
> The remaining 15 people are to be transferred to Christmas Island.




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8540838/boat-with-146-asylum-seekers-intercepted


----------



## drsmith (4 October 2012)

Another boat.



> A boat carrying 117 suspected asylum seekers has been found at the Cocos (Keeling) Islands.




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8543015


----------



## Julia (4 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8543015



Are we becoming inured to the constant arrivals?  It's no longer news.
Hardly an endorsement of the government's current policy.


----------



## noco (5 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Are we becoming inured to the constant arrivals?  It's no longer news.
> Hardly an endorsement of the government's current policy.




You would not expect anythimg different from this government as they have only gone half way with Nauru and Manus. No TPV and no turning back the boats where possible.

Gillard does not want it to work so she can turn on the opposition and say I told you so.


----------



## drsmith (5 October 2012)

noco said:


> Gillard does not want it to work so she can turn on the opposition and say I told you so.



I suspect it's more to keep their Green bed partners happy and in the longer term to swell the ranks of the Left.


----------



## DB008 (6 October 2012)

This should be ringing alarm bells with the public!



> *ASIO visa bans rejected*
> 
> MORE than 50 refugees judged to be a risk to national security by ASIO may be released from indefinite detention after the High Court yesterday struck down the regulation that prevented them being granted protection visas.
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (6 October 2012)

I doubt this will be allowed to be a problem for long.  The Opposition has already indicated a willingness to work with the government to change the legislation.  It will be raised in Parliament next week.
If someone is a security risk to Australia, even though a refugee in their home country because of their terrorist activities there, surely we should not be obliged to accept them into our community?


----------



## drsmith (6 October 2012)

The Greens position on this will be interesting on this when push comes to shove. In this instance, the Opposition would clearly be wise to side with Labor regardless of what the Greens do.

Labor however have to come up with something first, and despite bluster from Nicola Roxon about the Opposition supporting possible legislative change, there's no garantee that Labor will actually put forward such change.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-06/government-plays-down-high-court27s-refugee-ruling/4299124


----------



## drsmith (8 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-ashmore-islands/story-fn3dxiwe-1226490657875


----------



## noco (9 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-ashmore-islands/story-fn3dxiwe-1226490657875




With all that is going on with Slipper, Gillard and Bowen must feel relieved to have the limelight taken away from both of them ATM.


----------



## drsmith (10 October 2012)

One step forward ??



> The first asylum seekers will be sent to Papua New Guinea within weeks after federal parliament established the country as a regional processing hub.
> 
> Immigration Minister Chris Bowen said it was another step forward in the campaign to stop people smugglers and insisted they were getting the message about its tough new regime.



Two more boats.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8545404/two-boats-carrying-175-people-intercepted


----------



## dutchie (10 October 2012)

Yes Chris "ostrich" Bowen this policy is very successful. Keep up the good work.


http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/15068097/asylum-seekers-getting-the-message-bowen/


175 on boats near Western Australia 
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...estern-australia/story-fncyva0b-1226492348093


----------



## drsmith (10 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8545971/boat-carrying-nine-intercepted-off-wa


----------



## drsmith (10 October 2012)

noco said:


> With all that is going on with Slipper, Gillard and Bowen must feel relieved to have the limelight taken away from both of them ATM.



With all that's going on, the latest boat has even got past Andrew Bolt.


----------



## sptrawler (10 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> With all that's going on, the latest boat has even got past Andrew Bolt.




I'm not sure, that showing the real Julia, to deflect the attention from the boats was a winner.


----------



## drsmith (11 October 2012)

Another boat.

It's the 4th in two days.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8546256/navy-intercepts-two-asylum-seeker-boats


----------



## drsmith (12 October 2012)

Even the UN are getting fidgety.



> A MASSIVE backlog of asylum-seekers has built up inside detention centres because processing has stopped since the Pacific Solution was reinstated and almost none of the new arrivals have been transferred to Nauru or Papua New Guinea, which are not yet ready to receive them.
> 
> The warnings from the UN and refugee advocates, who predicted a looming disaster inside the detention network, emerged as UN High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres concluded PNG had "neither the competence or capacity" to process transferred asylum-seekers alone.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...m-seeker-backlog/story-fn9hm1gu-1226494018323


----------



## drsmith (12 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=805095


----------



## Julia (12 October 2012)

Where are all these people being accommodated?  Surely the detention centres must be full by now?
Are they being released directly into "community detention" before any checks have been done on them?


----------



## drsmith (12 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Are they being released directly into "community detention" before any checks have been done on them?



Unless their being detained in school halls, that must be the case.

Either that or the current Government are getting the checks done quickly enough as they circulate through the detention system into community detention.


----------



## drsmith (13 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/navy-assists-suspect-asylum-boat/story-e6frg6n6-1226494957133


----------



## noco (13 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Where are all these people being accommodated?  Surely the detention centres must be full by now?
> Are they being released directly into "community detention" before any checks have been done on them?




Who knows Julia!!!! The media have been so diversified with the poltical sex rage, they have forgotten the asylum seekers saga, so we hear nothing.

This is all part of this inept Labor Goverment strategy to take your mind away from the more important issues that they have messed up like asylim seekers, the carbon dioxide tax, the economy, NBN and the rising cost of living. Gillard is now loathe to talk about these items.

It is all about point scoring to keep herself in Governemnt and Labor is watching the polls very carefully. They are doing it with personal attacks on Abbott and it is wearing very thin.

I believe the polls will have gone South by next week.


----------



## DB008 (13 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-ashmore-islands/story-fn3dxiwe-1226490657875






drsmith said:


> Two more boats.
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8545404/two-boats-carrying-175-people-intercepted






drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8545971/boat-carrying-nine-intercepted-off-wa






drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> It's the 4th in two days.
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8546256/navy-intercepts-two-asylum-seeker-boats






drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=805095




I've lost count now...surely if they keep tabs on the climbing debt ceiling (updated weekly - AOFM.gov.au), they would have a department that is keeping track of the number of boas intercepted??? It's not like they are runing short of staff in Gov. departments.......


----------



## sptrawler (13 October 2012)

noco said:


> Who knows Julia!!!! The media have been so diversified with the poltical sex rage, they have forgotten the asylum seekers saga, so we hear nothing.
> 
> This is all part of this inept Labor Goverment strategy to take your mind away from the more important issues that they have messed up like asylim seekers, the carbon dioxide tax, the economy, NBN and the rising cost of living. Gillard is now loathe to talk about these items.
> 
> ...





I think you're right noco, Tony is away and Bishop is cranking up the demand for an apology.
Next week will be interesting, to see if the 'hard ass mother whatever' can explain what she is doing about actual issues.


----------



## dutchie (14 October 2012)

sptrawler said:


> I think you're right noco, Tony is away and Bishop is cranking up the demand for an apology.
> Next week will be interesting, to see if the 'hard ass mother whatever' can explain what she is doing about actual issues.




Duh what issues? alls good. We are doing a great job.


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=805611


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2012)

Another boat ?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...m-seekers-arrive/story-fncynkc6-1226495583770

The boat off Cocos Island is likely the one from the previous article as the number asylum seekers corresponds (49).

The numbers on the second boat in the article off Christmas Island (104) does not correspond with the one from the news article yesterday evening (188), so this may indeed be another boat.



> Greens immigration spokeswoman Sarah Hanson-Young said the latest arrivals showed the Nauru solution was not working.



Of course it doesn't work.

That's not what either the Greens or Labor want.


----------



## noco (14 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat ?
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...m-seekers-arrive/story-fncynkc6-1226495583770
> 
> ...




Yes Doc, I agree and I made the comment a day or two ago this Green/Labor government do not want it to work so they can throw it back in Abbotts face.

Of course it won't work. They have only gone half way with Nauru and Manus and Gillard knows it full well. She thinks people are stupid trying to pretend she has capitulated to Abbott.

Without TPV's and an attempt to turn back the boats, they will continue to come and both those islands may have reached their full capacity before they are even ready.

They are determined to get their way with Malaysia, but of course Labor has to appease the Greens at all costs.


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2012)

noco said:


> They are determined to get their way with Malaysia, but of course Labor has to appease the Greens at all costs.



Anything to avoid implementing a full set of policies that actually worked.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-15/asylum-yarn/4313154


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2012)

So much for the government's boat arrivals budget.

With 545 from 4 boats over the weekend, October's allowance of 450 has been blown apart in two days.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...at-arrival-costs/story-e6frf7kf-1226496486530


----------



## Julia (15 October 2012)

Probably right to say Malaysia needs to be part of an effective solution, but they can forget it because there's no way either the Opposition or the Greens will support the legislation.

Meantime, Mr Abbott has had his meeting with Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, and - according to ABC Radio News at 9pm - *has failed to raise the issue of turning back the boats.*

So once again, Mr Abbott will have made himself the subject of scorn from the government.  For all his insistence that a Coalition government would turn back the boats, if he can't even bring himself to raise it with the President of Indonesia, there would seem to be precious little chance of him successfully implementing such a policy.


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2012)

For Malaysia to bee an effective solution, it needs to be open-ended for a start. Before then, there's little point in rehashing old ground.

Labor is not interested in an effective solution. The sheer number of boats under their watch is proof of that.


----------



## drsmith (16 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Meantime, Mr Abbott has had his meeting with Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, and - according to ABC Radio News at 9pm - *has failed to raise the issue of turning back the boats.*
> 
> So once again, Mr Abbott will have made himself the subject of scorn from the government.  For all his insistence that a Coalition government would turn back the boats, if he can't even bring himself to raise it with the President of Indonesia, there would seem to be precious little chance of him successfully implementing such a policy.



I would hope the Coalition are discussing broader based solutions with the Indonesian government than just turning back the boats in any case.


----------



## Julia (16 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> I would hope the Coalition are discussing broader based solutions with the Indonesian government than just turning back the boats in any case.




Yes, of course.  But given the emphasis they have placed on the boat issue, it's reasonable to hope he would have discussed this with the President.
Scott Morrison, when asked about this today, says it was discussed by Julie Bishop and himself with their Foreign Minister.  He declined to reveal the content of that discussion.


----------



## sptrawler (16 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Probably right to say Malaysia needs to be part of an effective solution, but they can forget it because there's no way either the Opposition or the Greens will support the legislation.
> 
> Meantime, Mr Abbott has had his meeting with Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, and - according to ABC Radio News at 9pm - *has failed to raise the issue of turning back the boats.*
> 
> So once again, Mr Abbott will have made himself the subject of scorn from the government.  For all his insistence that a Coalition government would turn back the boats, if he can't even bring himself to raise it with the President of Indonesia, there would seem to be precious little chance of him successfully implementing such a policy.




Discussing turning back boats would appear premature, at present getting Indonesia to just intercept boats, would be a start.


----------



## Julia (16 October 2012)

As could be expected, the government are relishing the opportunity to mock Mr Abbott for not raising the boats issue with Indonesia's President.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-...urning-tail-in-indonesia/4315724?WT.svl=news0


----------



## drsmith (16 October 2012)

Julia said:


> As could be expected, the government are relishing the opportunity to mock Mr Abbott for not raising the boats issue with Indonesia's President.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-...urning-tail-in-indonesia/4315724?WT.svl=news0



That, from a government who's border protection strategies have long since died of shame.

They have a hide, if nothing else.


----------



## noco (16 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> That, from a government who's border protection strategies have long since died of shame.
> 
> They have a hide, if nothing else.




Shhh Doc, you are allowed to use that "died of shame" saying.


----------



## drsmith (16 October 2012)

noco said:


> Shhh Doc, you are allowed to use that "died of shame" saying.



Dunno about the shhh, but otherwise thankyou. 

This government will die of shame before they stop the boats.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...-take-time-bowen/story-e6frf7kf-1226497309474


----------



## noco (16 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Dunno about the shhh, but otherwise thankyou.
> 
> This government will die of shame before they stop the boats.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...-take-time-bowen/story-e6frf7kf-1226497309474




Plus one Doc.


----------



## drsmith (17 October 2012)

Poor Chris Bowen.

It's hard to defend the indefensable.



> LEIGH SALES: It's accurate to say, isn't it, that the asylum seeker policy that you announced in August has not yet acted as any sort of deterrent to people trying to come to Australia via boat?
> 
> CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think there's a few challenges here, Leigh, and let's ...
> 
> LEIGH SALES: A few challenges? Come on!




http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3612083.htm


----------



## drsmith (17 October 2012)

The video is a very good analysis of Tony Abbott's visit to Indonesia by The Australian's Greg Sheridan.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ets-asylum-talks/story-fn9hm1gu-1226497367257


----------



## drsmith (17 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...christmas-island/story-fndo2j43-1226497888029


----------



## drsmith (18 October 2012)

Another two boats,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/asylum-boat-intercepted/story-e6frf7kf-1226498833029

and another on the way ??

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/asylum-boat-still-missing-admiral-20121018-27t9t.html

Model citizens.


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2012)

Obviously the word is out " Come On Down".

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...at-off-sri-lanka/story-fndo20i0-1226498488402

It seems a bit farcical sending troops overseas to sort out insurgent problems, when we can't control our own borders.


----------



## drsmith (19 October 2012)

Another boat,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...cept-asylum-boat/story-e6frf7kf-1226499364571

and more crap from the government.



> JULIA Gillard says her Pacific Solution is sending a strong message to would-be asylum seekers, despite the arrival of more than 4600 boat people since she announced the resumption of offshore processing.
> 
> The Prime Minister today accused the opposition of policy on the run after it vowed to send asylum-seekers to Nauru and Papua New Guinea's Manus Island for up to five years.




That, from the masters of policy on the run.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...despite-arrivals/story-fn59niix-1226499411083


----------



## drsmith (20 October 2012)

The minister responsible for media releases on boat intercepts is so ashamed of the party he represents that their's no mention of it on his website header.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html

The list of media releases paints a very sorry picture indeed.

18 boats so far this month.


----------



## noco (20 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> The minister responsible for media releases on boat intercepts is so ashamed of the party he represents that their's no mention of it on his website header.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html
> 
> ...




Doc, the media have turned their attention on the temporary UN seat. 

Do you really think they could do two things at once. Now that is what I call Labor strategy. DIVE, DIVE, DIVE, DIVERT, DIVERT, DIVERT


----------



## drsmith (20 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...ker-boat-arrives/story-e6frfku9-1226499832519

18 so far this month above was incorrect. Two entries were boat(s). That makes at least 20. 

The above boat makes 21 so far this month.

That's more than one per day.


----------



## DB008 (20 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> The above boat makes 21 so far this month.
> 
> That's more than one per day.




Well, whatever the Government is currently doing, is *NOT* working. 

As I have said previously, what makes a good leader of any organisation, Government, business and in general, IMO, is to admit that you have made a mistake and admit that it is your fault in the decision making (not blame someone else) and say, 'Look, I've made a mistake, lets go back to what was previously working and go from there'.

Will Labor & Gillard do this, not a chance. Their arrogance is shinning brightly.

Very sad that we have people like this running our country. Bunch of muppets. My opinion only.


----------



## drsmith (22 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html


----------



## Calliope (22 October 2012)

Are they worth it? Surely we could get cheaper and better immigrants elsewhere. What value does the government see in these illegals, that we pay so much for them?:shake:



> The opposition spokesman on immigration, Scott Morrison, pointed out last week that the spending in the 2011-12 financial year averaged $12.8 million for every illegal boat arrival, or $172,700 for every person on board.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...xtravagance-20121021-27z9t.html#ixzz29yfsoLGu


----------



## drsmith (22 October 2012)

Another two boats.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...er-protection-command-intercepts-vessels.html


----------



## DB008 (22 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html






drsmith said:


> Another two boats.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...er-protection-command-intercepts-vessels.html




Is that 3 today?

*Edit, 2 today, 1 yesterday.


----------



## drsmith (22 October 2012)

DB008 said:


> 2 today, 1 yesterday.




Two were advised today, one yesterday. 



> 22/10/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
> 21/10/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (22 October 2012)

Another boat.



> 22/10/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessel




This one is in addition to those above.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...border-protection-command-assists-vessel.html


----------



## noco (22 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Yes Doc and $1.6 billion over budget already.Wong has chopped off the baby bonus to pay for these illegals.


----------



## drsmith (23 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html


----------



## doctorj (23 October 2012)

noco said:


> Wong has chopped off the baby bonus




At least something good comes from all this!


----------



## drsmith (23 October 2012)

doctorj said:


> At least something good comes from all this!



In the broader tax reform context yes (I'll asume that's what you mean), but no good comes from cutting one form of waste to fund another, inparticular when the recipients are not even our own citizens.


----------



## doctorj (23 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> In the broader tax reform context yes (I'll asume that's what you mean), but no good comes from cutting one form of waste to fund another, inparticular when the recipients are not even our own citizens.




How much of the headline number goes in cash to the illegal immigrants and how much is paid to government employees (e.g. Navy) and Australian companies to provide basic services to these people?


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2012)

doctorj said:


> How much of the headline number goes in cash to the illegal immigrants and how much is paid to government employees (e.g. Navy) and Australian companies to provide basic services to these people?



Are you arguing for or against ?


----------



## doctorj (24 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Are you arguing for or against ?




I'm just saying it's not as simply as having given them cash rather than passing it to poor struggling Australian families.  There's far too much rhetoric and emotion around the subject from the media, politicians and even this board for my liking. 

I'm quite sympathetic to those that come to Australia, even illegally, in search of a better life.  Australia is a lucky country and Australians were lucky to be born in Australia.  Most aren't so lucky and we need to get over this sense of entitlement/superiority that we seem to have.  This is not to say we should open our doors to all and sundry, but I think we need to do a better job of giving genuine people in need a way of coming to Australia without risking their lives on rickety boats in open seas, without taking too long to do it and with transparency. We also need to do a better job of treating those that do come by boat better - again with speed, transparency and dignity.

'For those who'vecome across the seas; we've boundless plains to share'....


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2012)

doctorj said:


> 'For those who'vecome across the seas; we've boundless plains to share'....



The problem with that point of view is it's the taxes of Australian citizens that you want to share and our lifestyle that you wish to compromise to satisfy your soft heart.


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2012)

Another three boats.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...er-protection-command-intercepts-vessels.html


----------



## doctorj (24 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> The problem with that point of view is it's the taxes of Australian citizens that you want to share and our lifestyle that you wish to compromise to satisfy your soft heart.




How does it compromise our lifestyle?

The point is that what is happening now isn't working for anyone, be they tax payers or asylum seekers.  There will always be asylum seekers and as a signatory to the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, Australia has a responsibility to them.  This will have a cost and will result in some asylum seekers being granted the right to remain in Australia.

Processing them excessively slowly costs more in the long run and requires more infrastructure to house them in the meantime.  All I’m saying is they should be processed quickly, fairly and transparently and there should be a better means of entry into Australia for genuine asylum seekers that doesn’t involve risking their life excessively and that doesn’t involve expensive naval operations.  Hopefully then you can stem the flow of boats, save money and be fairer to genuine asylum seekers.


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2012)

doctorj said:


> All I’m saying is they should be processed quickly, fairly and transparently and there should be a better means of entry into Australia for genuine asylum seekers that doesn’t involve risking their life excessively and that doesn’t involve expensive naval operations.  Hopefully then you can stem the flow of boats, save money and be fairer to genuine asylum seekers.



Return immediately to the country of origin any asylum seeker that comes by boat or otherwise via the services of a people smuggler and let them use the proper processes that are allready in place.


----------



## noco (24 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another three boats.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...er-protection-command-intercepts-vessels.html




Yes Doc and the media are very conspicuous by their absence on reporting. 

Too much diversion on misogyny, the UN seat and Tony Abbott.


----------



## doctorj (24 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Return immediately to the country of origin any asylum seeker that comes by boat or otherwise via the services of a people smuggler and let them use the proper processes that are allready in place.




If they are a genuine asylum seeker, then they are often running from persecution or other forms of peril that don't offer them the luxury of hanging around for lengthy, bureaucratic and under resourced procedures.    They want to get away from whatever peril they face quickly.  

Not all asylum seekers are genuine, which is why there needs to be a process in place.  But for those that are genuine, then there’s often a damn good reason they’re running and I doubt even the most steadfast opponents would want to see those people’s lives placed in danger.


----------



## Julia (24 October 2012)

doctorj said:


> The point is that what is happening now isn't working for anyone, be they tax payers or asylum seekers.



Correct.  Because the Labor government dismantled a system that was working.



> Processing them excessively slowly costs more in the long run and requires more infrastructure to house them in the meantime.  All I’m saying is they should be processed quickly, fairly and transparently and there should be a better means of entry into Australia for genuine asylum seekers that doesn’t involve risking their life excessively and that doesn’t involve expensive naval operations.



What you are ignoring is that the Department of Immigration (especially in these cost cutting times) can only process so many people in any given time.  Accordingly, the processing of these boat arrivals means that those who have been patiently waiting for years in UNHCR camps - including those who have enormous need for refuge but lack the funds to pay the people smugglers -  are pushed further back down the list.

If you think that's fair, I'm glad you're not running the country.


----------



## doctorj (24 October 2012)

Julia said:


> What you are ignoring is that the Department of Immigration (especially in these cost cutting times) can only process so many people in any given time.



Sure, but then the process needs looking at.  You can’t escape the fact that these are real people, some (many? I don’t know) of which have genuine reasons to do what they’ve done.   Some compassion would not go astray.



Julia said:


> Accordingly, the processing of these boat arrivals means that those who have been patiently waiting for years in UNHCR camps - including those who have enormous need for refuge but lack the funds to pay the people smugglers -  are pushed further back down the list.
> 
> If you think that's fair, I'm glad you're not running the country.



The people in the UNHCR camps are also a problem, I agree.  But I don’t think it’s right to talk about fairness when the only response to a problem that is both urgent and serious is one that takes years.


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2012)

doctorj said:


> If they are a genuine asylum seeker, then they are often running from persecution or other forms of peril that don't offer them the luxury of hanging around for lengthy, bureaucratic and under resourced procedures.    They want to get away from whatever peril they face quickly.
> 
> Not all asylum seekers are genuine, which is why there needs to be a process in place.  But for those that are genuine, then there’s often a damn good reason they’re running and I doubt even the most steadfast opponents would want to see those people’s lives placed in danger.



I didn't think we'd agree.


----------



## doctorj (24 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> I didn't think we'd agree.




Doctors have differences of opinion all the time


----------



## sails (25 October 2012)

This is surely one boat that should not be allowed into Australia - and how many other criminals and violent people have already arrived and being kept at our expense?

These people are not fleeing violence - more likely they are wanting to bring it with them (bold is mine):



> ARREST warrants on charges of attempted murder and robbery have been issued for 14 asylum seekers on a pirated fishing boat which is thought to be headed for Australia.
> 
> Sri Lankan police have also called in Interpol in the hunt for the group *that bound the hands of crew, cut one man's throat and then tossed at least two deckhands into the sea* south of Sri Lanka.




Read more:
Warrant issued to arrest asylum pirates


----------



## dutchie (25 October 2012)

sails said:


> This is surely one boat that should not be allowed into Australia - and how many other criminals and violent people have already arrived and being kept at our expense?
> 
> These people are not fleeing violence - more likely they are wanting to bring it with them (bold is mine):
> 
> ...






All this will be when they land in Australia is:-


----------



## drsmith (25 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...border-protection-command-assists-vessel.html


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html


----------



## dutchie (26 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html






drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...border-protection-command-assists-vessel.html






drsmith said:


> Another three boats.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...er-protection-command-intercepts-vessels.html






drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html





This government is a joke and the biggest clown is Julia Gillard


----------



## noco (26 October 2012)

dutchie said:


> This government is a joke and the biggest clown is Julia Gillard




Gillrad has broken the record!!!!!!!!!!!!

Over 2000 so far this month.


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2012)

The award for the biggest clown is jointly shared by those who voted for her party.


----------



## drsmith (27 October 2012)

So, we can send them back.



> Fourteen asylum seekers who allegedly hijacked a ship off the Sri Lankan coast in a bid to reach Australia have been found and sent home, the Department of Immigration says.




And from our territory.



> Fourteen of them were returned to Sri Lanka from the Cocos Islands on a charter flight on Saturday afternoon.




http://www.skynews.com.au/national/article.aspx?id=810139

It will be interesting to see what the opposition makes of this.


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2012)

Come to Australia on a boat, claim to be a refugee, get a pay out and a free flight home.
Jump on the next boat as quick as you can, to get back Australia for the next payout and free flight home. 
Don't you just love this fiasco, even Bob Brown must be pizzing himself.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/asylum-seeker-sent-home-for-second-time-in-weeks-20121027-28c86.html

Actually their handouts are probably only limited by the speed of the boats.LOL


----------



## drsmith (27 October 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Come to Australia on a boat, claim to be a refugee, get a pay out and a free flight home.



Seeing everybody else with their hands in the Australian taxpayer's pocket under the current government, Nauru doesn't its opportunity either.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...r-each-asylum-seeker-visa-20121026-28az1.html


----------



## Julia (27 October 2012)

Nauru knows that it has the Australian government over a barrel.  They can demand whatever they like now.


----------



## drsmith (27 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Nauru knows that it has the Australian government over a barrel.  They can demand whatever they like now.



That too was clearly the basis of Labor's failed deal with Malaysia.


----------



## noco (27 October 2012)

Julia said:


> Nauru knows that it has the Australian government over a barrel.  They can demand whatever they like now.




Well Julia, in fairness to the Labor Party, I can't believe Nauru had not raised that issue before accepting the asylum seekers deal.

Surely there would have been certain conditions agreed to in writing before accepting Australia's proposal. I find it a bit rude on behalf of the Nauran government to be demanding such a payment after the deal was made.

But there again as Doc states, Labor never seem to get it right.

Sounds like Nauru are money hungry.


----------



## banco (27 October 2012)

noco said:


> Well Julia, in fairness to the Labor Party, I can't believe Nauru had not raised that issue before accepting the asylum seekers deal.
> 
> Surely there would have been certain conditions agreed to in writing before accepting Australia's proposal. I find it a bit rude on behalf of the Nauran government to be demanding such a payment after the deal was made.
> 
> ...




Money hungry?  It was understood by everyone that Narau was only offering to take the refugees in return for cash.


----------



## drsmith (28 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ople-intercepted/story-fn3dxiwe-1226504754288


----------



## drsmith (29 October 2012)

Another four boats.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html
http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...border-protection-command-assists-vessel.html
http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html
http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html


----------



## drsmith (30 October 2012)

Another three boats,

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...er-protection-command-intercepts-vessels.html
http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html

and Labor is learching towards the panic button.

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/in...o-remove-mainland-from-migration-zone/1038428


----------



## Julia (30 October 2012)

drsmith said:


> and Labor is lurching towards the panic button.
> 
> http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/in...o-remove-mainland-from-migration-zone/1038428



From the above link, Labor's hypocrisy reaches new levels:



> Immigration Minister Chris Bowen plans to introduce the legislation tomorrow, having discussed the move with caucus colleagues this morning.
> 
> In 2006 as an opposition MP, Mr Bowen described the Howard government's plan as a "hypocritical and illogical bill" with no redeeming features.
> 
> ...



A government dying of shame comes to mind.


----------



## noco (31 October 2012)

What a bunch of hypocritical hillbillies these Labor people are. They were negative in the Howard years and now decide to use Howards policy. 

They are so desperate for votes. They are now trying to impress with action and hope nobody notices there back flip. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-by-john-howard/story-e6frerc6-1226507022647


----------



## drsmith (31 October 2012)

> Here's with Mr Bowen with his new formulation on ABC news radio this morning.
> 
> _Let me make a couple of points, Marius. Firstly, I’ve changed my mind and this is a change in the Labor Party position, that’s very clear, based on the evidence, based on trying to save people’s lives.
> 
> If I have a choice between saving somebody’s life and being entirely consistent with something I said in 2006, well, I’ll go for saving the life, thanks very much._



What about the cost of your party's folly in both money and lives Mr Bowen ?

This is Labor's shame. Beyond the spoils of office, it doesn't care.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...tober-31-2012-20121031-28ind.html?reload=true


----------



## dutchie (31 October 2012)

More money wasted.

Border regime boost tops $1.7bn  (that's just for one year)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-boost-tops-17bn/story-fn9hm1gu-1226507017805


----------



## drsmith (31 October 2012)

Labor's problem,



> More than 5700 asylum seekers have now arrived since August 13, the cut-off date from when the government has warned people could be sent for offshore processing.
> 
> That compares with 4300 over the same period before the cut-off - with the difference alone going close to filling the quota for asylum seekers on Nauru.




http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/p...ise-since-offshore-policy-20121030-28hqh.html

and to help pay for this mess, Labor is resorting, by stealth, to raiding lost bank accounts.



> 11.47am: Interesting little story developing.
> 
> When Mr Hockey complained about government on the run this morning (see our brief post at 10.10am) he was speaking to one of the savings measures from the recent mid year economic forecasts - a measure allowing the Australian Taxation Office to hoover up lost super accounts.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...tober-31-2012-20121031-28ind.html?reload=true

Mu bolds.


----------



## drsmith (31 October 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...der-protection-command-intercepts-vessel.html


----------



## drsmith (1 November 2012)

Another boat.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...border-protection-command-assists-vessel.html


----------



## doctorj (1 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...border-protection-command-assists-vessel.html




We obviously have very different views on this topic, but please take this question at face value - what do you hope to achieve by posting daily updates of new boats? I'm curious...


----------



## drsmith (1 November 2012)

At face value,

To highlight their frequency.


----------



## noco (1 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...border-protection-command-assists-vessel.html




Doc, the media have gone very quiet on the arrivals but were quick with news on the 170 on a hunger strike on Nauru.


----------



## drsmith (1 November 2012)

noco said:


> Doc, the media have gone very quiet on the arrivals but were quick with news on the 170 on a hunger strike on Nauru.



It would seem that as the boats have become that frequent, an individual boat arrival is not in itself as newsworthy as it was.

Part of it at least would be would be business considerations I imagine. Once something becomes routine, it's less likely to sell newspapers or online subscriptions.


----------



## Julia (1 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Part of it at least would be would be business considerations I imagine. Once something becomes routine, it's less likely to sell newspapers or online subscriptions.



Also just a sense amongst most people, I think, of exhaustion and helplessness on the topic.
We all know the government has completely and utterly stuffed up and has no idea how to get out of their own mess.  The boats will continue arriving until there is a change of government and something is actually done to change the situation.


----------



## Ferret (2 November 2012)

Julia said:


> The boats will continue arriving until there is a change of government and something is actually done to change the situation.




I'm not confident that anything can be done to stop them arriving now.  Although Labor broke a working system, I think a changing world might have caused it to fail by now anyway.

I really can't see the Indonesians agreeing to a turn back the boats policy, and if the government of the day ignores this and there is an incident or tragedy ....  

Is this what you think needs to be done, Julia, or are you thinking of another way that the situation could be changed?


----------



## Julia (2 November 2012)

Ferret said:


> I'm not confident that anything can be done to stop them arriving now.  Although Labor broke a working system, I think a changing world might have caused it to fail by now anyway.



You might be right.  But the government has really not created much of a disincentive.  They are only slowly and reluctantly implementing the Houston recommendations and won't adopt e.g. TPV's.



> I really can't see the Indonesians agreeing to a turn back the boats policy, and if the government of the day ignores this and there is an incident or tragedy ....



We can't blame the Indonesians.  They have too many asylum seekers to deal with.  It would have to be in their interests if as many as possible hop on a boat and head for Australia.



> Is this what you think needs to be done, Julia, or are you thinking of another way that the situation could be changed?



I don't know, Ferret.  But Mr Abbott's longer term political survival depends on him being able to do what he has said he can do.  He has rubbished the government for failing, continually claiming the Coalition will 'stop the boats'.  If this turns out to be just another stupid slogan, he won't last long.

If it were me (and I'm very glad it's not) I'd be putting the main focus on being prepared to fund processing centres in Indonesia.


----------



## drsmith (2 November 2012)

Has macquarie redefined failure ?



> Immigration Minister Chris Bowen says the government's plan to stop asylum seekers arriving by boat is largely working, but admits that getting the message through to Sri Lankans is proving difficult.




http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-is-slowing-boat-arrivals-20121102-28o8h.html


----------



## Julia (2 November 2012)

Largely working????
I don't think so.
From the link above:


> A further 26 Sri Lankans have been returned to their home country, bringing the total number of returns to Sri Lanka since August to 116.



That is about one boatload returned as against thousands arriving.


----------



## drsmith (4 November 2012)

Three more boats.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...d-in-aust-waters/story-e6frf7kf-1226509672177


----------



## IFocus (4 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Three more boats.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...d-in-aust-waters/story-e6frf7kf-1226509672177





I think Gillard should pick up the phone and call the president of Nauru....................Quote from Abbott, the most expensive option and it doesn't seem to work. 

I think the TPV argument it even more pointless.


----------



## drsmith (4 November 2012)

The Coalition's policy position has never been to reopen Nauru in isolation.


----------



## drsmith (5 November 2012)

Another three boats.



> 05/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 04/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 04/11/2012 Customs and Border Protection and the Australia Federal Police intercept vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html

That combined with the previous three boats represents over 400 arrivals in two days.


----------



## Julia (5 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another three boats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Does anyone know where all these people are being accommodated?  The detention centres must have been full weeks ago.


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2012)

Another eight boats.

08/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
07/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
07/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
06/11/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessel
06/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessels

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html



Julia said:


> Does anyone know where all these people are being accommodated?  The detention centres must have been full weeks ago.




In the absence of information otherwise, one can only assume many are being released into the community after a relatively short stay in detention.


----------



## dutchie (9 November 2012)

:bier::bier::bananasmi:bananasmiartyman:artyman:

Congratulations Labor

Job well done!

Five hundredth asylum seeker boat in five years 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...at-in-five-years/story-e6freuy9-1226513303898

Very successful campaign.


----------



## noco (9 November 2012)

Julia said:


> Does anyone know where all these people are being accommodated?  The detention centres must have been full weeks ago.





These are the things Labor do not want you to know.

They will tell you how bad Tony Abbott is but will keep you in the dark on the things you really want to hear.


----------



## drsmith (9 November 2012)

> Prime Minister Julia Gillard says the government's border protection policies are working,........




http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/br...nsists-many-boats-stopped-20121109-2931p.html

Two more boats.



> But the boats are still coming, with the government on Friday announcing two more arrivals, one carrying 75 people and the other with 54 aboard.
> 
> About 900 people have arrived on 17 boats in the first nine days of November.




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2012/11/09/17/01/more-sri-lankan-boat-people-sent-home


----------



## noco (10 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/br...nsists-many-boats-stopped-20121109-2931p.html
> 
> Two more boats.
> 
> ...




Yes Doc, and another 48 today making it 950 in 10 days and this Green/Labor left wing socialist government is very conspicuos by there absence of any announcement.

It is a pity they did not try a little harder to stop the boats instead of running around with treasury leaks on the coalitions costings.

I suggest they look at there own mismanagement of the economy first and tell the public what these boat people are costing the tax payer every day.






http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e-aboard-stopped/story-e6freono-1226514296831


----------



## Julia (10 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another eight boats.
> In the absence of information otherwise, one can only assume many are being released into the community after a relatively short stay in detention.






noco said:


> These are the things Labor do not want you to know.



Well, I'm having a go at finding out.
The following is an email sent to my local MP (NAT) and I'll send the same to Jason Clare.


> Dear Mr Neville
> 
> Every day the media reports more boats arriving, along with the information that the passengers are to be taken to Christmas Island for 'health and security checks'.
> Given the huge number of these arrivals since the government announced its change of policy (which appears to an encouragement rather than a deterrent), could you please advise where these asylum seekers are being accommodated?
> ...


----------



## DB008 (11 November 2012)

Gillard - 2003 quote.




> "Another boat on the way. Another policy failure."
> 
> Laurie Oaks: You see, that press statement is dated April 23, 2003, and it's issued by then shadow minister Julia Gillard.




http://today.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=877129


----------



## noco (11 November 2012)

noco said:


> Yes Doc, and another 48 today making it 950 in 10 days and this Green/Labor left wing socialist government is very conspicuos by there absence of any announcement.
> 
> It is a pity they did not try a little harder to stop the boats instead of running around with treasury leaks on the coalitions costings.
> 
> ...




Latest count : 1070 for November. We might yet break another record and hit 3000 for the month

Bowen said last year we could expect 600 pm. WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2012)

Julia said:


> Well, I'm having a go at finding out.
> The following is an email sent to my local MP (NAT) and I'll send the same to Jason Clare.



It will be interesting to see what answer you get.


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another eight boats.
> 
> 08/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 07/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
> ...



None of the boats since are noted on his site.

Clearly, he has the weekend off even though the people smugglers don't.



noco said:


> Latest count : 1070 for November. We might yet break another record and hit 3000 for the month
> 
> Bowen said last year we could expect 600 pm. WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Chris Bowen's so-called closing down sale just goes from strength to strength. 

For the people smugglers, it's the happy hour that never ends.


----------



## Julia (11 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> It will be interesting to see what answer you get.



Yes, if any.  I shall not be holding my breath.


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2012)

Julia said:


> Yes, if any.  I shall not be holding my breath.



Australian taxpayers that are financing Chris Bowen's so-called closing down sale don't want to either.


----------



## noco (11 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Australian taxpayers that are financing Chris Bowen's so-called closing down sale don't want to either.




Yes, and the latest news is the border patrol boats are falling apart through lack of maintainance.

I wonder if the navy blokes are being paid overtime.

If they arn't being paid penalty rates and danger money they should go to Fair Work Australia. LOL


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2012)

What about Bowens shhhh 'secret' deport policy. Apparently nobody, except those that read the "Sunday Times" have heard about it. Nearly 100 have been sent home WOW.
But we are hoping the lawyers will jump on it.LOL
Sunday Times page 26 on 11/11/2012.


----------



## drsmith (12 November 2012)

Julia said:


> Yes, if any.  I shall not be holding my breath.



No mention of any of the weekend's boats on Jason Clare's page today.

Perhap's he's busy responding to your question.


----------



## noco (12 November 2012)

THE BOAT PEOPLE'S POEM during Bob Brown's reign.

   I cross ocean, one  way trip, 
Pay people smuggler  one big tip                              
Green man, his name Bob  Brown,  
He welcomes all of us  to town. 
He big man in Government now I think.  
He sends us off  to  Centrelink.
Welfare  say, “You come no more,  
We send cash right to  your door". 
Welfare cheques - they make you wealthy!  
Medicare - it keep  you healthy!
By and by,   I get plenty money.  
Thanks to you, you  Aussie dummy! 
Write to  friends in motherland. 
Tell them  'come fast as  you can.. " 
“Before all is changed  to  Abbott plan”
They come  in turbans and  Toyota trucks,  
And buy big house  with welfare bucks! 
They come here, we live together.  
More welfare cheques,  it gets better! 
Fourteen families, they moving in,  
But neighbour  patience wearing thin. 
Finally, Aussie guy  moves away.  
Now I buy his house,  then say, 
'Find more  immigrants for house to rent. "  
And in the  yard   I put a tent.
                Everything is  very good, 
 And soon we own the  neighbourhood. 
We have hobby, it's called breeding.  
Welfare pay for baby  feeding. 
Kids need dentist? Wives need pills?  
We get free! We got  no bills! 
Australians crazy! They work all year,  
To keep the welfare  running here. 
We think Australia darn good place.  
Too darn good for  Aussie race! 
If they not like us, they can scram.  
Lots of space in  Afghanistan! 

  PLEASE SEND  THIS  EVERY Australian TAXPAYER YOU  KNOW.


----------



## Julia (13 November 2012)

A couple of days ago I posted that I'd emailed my local Federal member (NAT) and the Federal government asking where all the boat arrivals are being placed, as quite obviously Christmas Island couldn't accommodate them all.
Nothing from the Federal government which is hardly surprising , but the following from the office of Paul Neville, local NAT sitting member:


> Thanks for your recent email regarding illegal boat people.
> 
> Most illegal boat arrivals are taken to Christmas Island but given it is full to overflowing, with the high volume of arrivals under this Government, people are now increasingly being brought straight to the mainland.  In November last year, the Government started issuing bridging visas to illegal boat arrivals before their asylum claims had been assessed.  Since that decision was taken, over 15,800 people have arrived on illegal boats.
> 
> ...



No wonder the boats come in increasing numbers.


----------



## sptrawler (13 November 2012)

Julia said:


> A couple of days ago I posted that I'd emailed my local Federal member (NAT) and the Federal government asking where all the boat arrivals are being placed, as quite obviously Christmas Island couldn't accommodate them all.
> Nothing from the Federal government which is hardly surprising , but the following from the office of Paul Neville, local NAT sitting member:
> 
> No wonder the boats come in increasing numbers.




It doesn't seem to matter, what poor performance the government produces, it is far outweighed by Abbotts lack of popularity.
This could be resolved if the Liberals can get Bert Newton, Nicole Kidman or Hugh Jackman to run for leadership. I would have sugested Andrew Denton, he's a smart cookie, but his height would have given Labor a free hit.


----------



## drsmith (20 November 2012)

I've been slacking off.

Another ten boats.



> 19/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
> 19/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 18/11/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessels
> 17/11/2012 Customs and Border Protection and AFP intercept vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (21 November 2012)

Stopping the boats Labor style.

Most of the current crop of queue jumpers will be getting five years on the dole and accommodation assistance thrown in.



> Mr Bowen has today conceded there have been too many arrivals since August to send all asylum seekers to either Manus Island or Nauru, and some people will have to be released into the community.
> 
> "Transfers to Nauru and Manus Island will continue, however in the coming weeks and months my department will begin releasing some people who arrived by boat on or after August 13 into the community on bridging visas," he said in a statement.
> 
> "Consistent with no advantage, people from this cohort going onto bridging visas will have no work rights and will receive only basic accommodation assistance and limited financial support."




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-21/first-asylum-seekers-arrive-on-manus-island/4383876


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2012)

Jeez doc, I heard on the radio today, 30,000 boat people since Labor took office. :1zhelp:


----------



## drsmith (21 November 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez doc, I heard on the radio today, 30,000 boat people since Labor took office. :1zhelp:



And more by the day. 

Another two boats.



> 21/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 21/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## Ijustnewit (22 November 2012)

I've seen heaps of these guys out and about in community down here in the past few months. I started to think with the amount turning up they must be putting them on the mainland ( Australia ) somewhere. So put them down in Tassie and no one will kick up a fuss or take too much notice . In fact the other night I saw about 5 of them looking at a BMW parked on the side of the road for sale .. no kidding. Then in the news today this.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-21/pontville-reopens-to-asylum-seekers/4384240?section=tas


----------



## drsmith (22 November 2012)

Labor's last stand,



> The bridging visa at least lacks one sting of the old temporary protection visas under Howard - which allowed refugees eventually to be sent back home if that was considered safe.




http://www.canberratimes.com.au/opi...ward-days-is-excruciating-20121121-29qa7.html


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2012)

Ijustnewit said:


> I've seen heaps of these guys out and about in community down here in the past few months. I started to think with the amount turning up they must be putting them on the mainland ( Australia ) somewhere. So put them down in Tassie and no one will kick up a fuss or take too much notice . In fact the other night I saw about 5 of them looking at a BMW parked on the side of the road for sale .. no kidding. Then in the news today this.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-21/pontville-reopens-to-asylum-seekers/4384240?section=tas





Reading that article highlights the state Tasmania is in regarding employment. The greens want the rest of Australia in the same situation.
Actually the way Labor and the Greens are going, stuffing the economy and shutting everything down. 
We may have to fall back on being a world refugee processing centre, for future growth and employment.
Maybe that's the plan.LOL


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Labor's last stand,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/opi...ward-days-is-excruciating-20121121-29qa7.html




The social unrest that this is going to cause is going to be something to watch. 
I certainly think, the refugees that are placed in the community on minimum welfare are going to be a bit pizzed off.
I think there will be a increase in employment in certain sectors of our public service.

This is turning into one hell of a mess doc. It has the potential to change the "Australian" way of life.IMO


----------



## moXJO (22 November 2012)

I don't really agree with not letting them work and forcing them on the dole. That just seems like turning what could be productive people into long term dole bludgers.


----------



## drsmith (22 November 2012)

Another boat.



> 22/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html



moXJO said:


> I don't really agree with not letting them work and forcing them on the dole. That just seems like turning what could be productive people into long term dole bludgers.



The government is perhaps thinking two things here.

Firstly, their hoping it will be a winner in terms of looking like they are doing something in the eyes of the public, and, secondly, it might encourage a few more to return to their country of origin.

In reality, it's just the latest of a long list of panic measures to masage the perception of the problem in the eyes of the voting public, accompanied by the usual token noises from their back bench.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...sylum-underclass/story-fn9hm1gu-1226521816387

Labor is still not serious about restoring border protection into an orderly refugee intake. It's still wedded to ever increasing numbers of arrivals through its Green partners in government and by its own idiology. The human or economic cost is of no significance to a government that has long since reduced itself to clinging to office at any cost.


----------



## Julia (22 November 2012)

moXJO said:


> I don't really agree with not letting them work and forcing them on the dole. That just seems like turning what could be productive people into long term dole bludgers.



Yes, of course it does.  But the government cannot possibly allow them to be admitted straight into the community and work.  That would just provide an even greater incentive to more arrivals.

I think even just admitting them to the community with bridging visas will not be seen as a deterrent, but rather as a win for asylum seekers.
Until some of the boats are turned back, I can't see anything changing, especially when ABC Radio so sympathetically takes calls from asylum seekers at Nauru outlining their demands.

Sure, conditions are tough there.  That's the whole idea.  A disincentive.

Mr Abbott says he will in the next week announce further measures the Coalition would take on assuming government to take control of Australia's borders.  I look forward to that.


----------



## dutchie (22 November 2012)

Mr Bowen has today conceded there have been too many arrivals since August to send all asylum seekers to either Manus Island or Nauru, and some people will have to be released into the community.

"Transfers to Nauru and Manus Island will continue, however in the coming weeks and months my department will begin releasing some people who arrived by boat on or after August 13 into the community on bridging visas," he said in a statement.

"Consistent with no advantage, people from this cohort going onto bridging visas will have no work rights and will receive only basic accommodation assistance and limited financial support." 



These people will turn to criminal activities to boost their incomes.


----------



## MrBurns (22 November 2012)

dutchie said:


> These people will turn to criminal activities to boost their incomes.




Precisely.


----------



## drsmith (22 November 2012)

dutchie said:


> These people will turn to criminal activities to boost their incomes.



That doesn't bother Labor or the Greens.

For a long time this government stood by anything but Nauru. Now it's anything but the Coalition's TPV's.


----------



## moXJO (22 November 2012)

Julia said:


> Yes, of course it does.  But the government cannot possibly allow them to be admitted straight into the community and work.  That would just provide an even greater incentive to more arrivals.




True, they are stuffed either way. Labor ability to tinker with policy and completely stuff it seems to be its one defining characteristic. What is worse is once labor touches it they wait till it gets so bad  that it is even more difficult to fix. Labor can't run a policy successfully to completion. They have no foresight into the consequences of their policy tinkering. Imo business conditions will be the next thing completely stuffed. All the while labor cries:
 'You have never had it so good'


----------



## noco (22 November 2012)

What a nightmare this Green/Labor socialist left wing government have created for themselves.

Ah well, what's new? 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...solution-swamped/story-fn9hm1gu-1226521602010


----------



## Julia (22 November 2012)

From "The Australian" article above in relation to asylum seekers being provided with an allowance only slightly less than Newstart:


> Refugee Council chief executive Paul Power said: "It's going to leave people living close to absolute poverty."




Well, fancy that, Mr Power.  I haven't heard you protesting about all the thousands of Australians, most of whom have paid taxes, who are also trying to exist on the Newstart allowance, only a few dollars more than will be given to these boat people.
Certainly Australians are eligible to work but try assuring anyone over 45 that they will be able to get a job, and that qualification seems hollow.

So let's see these refugee advocates just try to consider first addressing the plight of Australians who are homeless and living below the poverty line, before they demonstrate their bleeding hearts for those economic asylum seekers eager to take advantage of the soft touch that is Australia.


----------



## noco (22 November 2012)

Julia said:


> From "The Australian" article above in relation to asylum seekers being provided with an allowance only slightly less than Newstart:
> 
> 
> Well, fancy that, Mr Power.  I haven't heard you protesting about all the thousands of Australians, most of whom have paid taxes, who are also trying to exist on the Newstart allowance, only a few dollars more than will be given to these boat people.
> ...




+1 I agree.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 November 2012)

At work we currently have a humanitarian refugee doing work experience. It's a government organised scheme and he'll be here for a few weeks.

Suffice to say that it does give you a certain perspective to be working with someone who has suffered 17 years of physical abuse prior to arriving in Australia earlier this year as a humanitarian refugee.

His English skills aren't great at the moment but he'll get there. We've got him doing (under supervision) basic workshop mechanical tasks like drilling holes and tapping threads, recording readings from measurement devices, assembling things etc. Basically the same things we'd get anyone on work experience to do. It's legitimate "real" work, but if it goes wrong then it's nothing that we can't fix pretty easily. That said, the objective isn't to train him in any technical skills but to assist with adapting to living and working in Australian society. 

It certainly does give a different perspective on the plight of others that's for sure.


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2012)

Julia said:


> From "The Australian" article above in relation to asylum seekers being provided with an allowance only slightly less than Newstart:
> 
> 
> Well, fancy that, Mr Power.  I haven't heard you protesting about all the thousands of Australians, most of whom have paid taxes, who are also trying to exist on the Newstart allowance, only a few dollars more than will be given to these boat people.
> ...




Great to see you back.


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> At work we currently have a humanitarian refugee doing work experience. It's a government organised scheme and he'll be here for a few weeks.
> 
> Suffice to say that it does give you a certain perspective to be working with someone who has suffered 17 years of physical abuse prior to arriving in Australia earlier this year as a humanitarian refugee.
> 
> ...




That's great and I agree with your sentiments. 
How many more would you like?


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 November 2012)

sptrawler said:


> That's great and I agree with your sentiments.
> How many more would you like?



Therein lies the problem. Australia can help a few people but nowhere near the number who could potentially turn up.


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> Therein lies the problem. Australia can help a few people but nowhere near the number who could potentially turn up.





I think with a population the size of ours, in a country the size of ours. The integration process should happen in a controlled manner.
Trying to quell problems everywhere, would be difficult. Even the U.K found that out and it is a tiny island with a large per capita manpower resource at its disposal


----------



## drsmith (25 November 2012)

Another boat that didn't make it.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/boat-tragedy-claims-33-asylum-seekers-20121124-2a0gx.html


----------



## dutchie (25 November 2012)

5 years ago the ALP decided to fix something that was not broken purely for political gain.

Now after wasting over 5 billion dollars, the loss of 1033 lives, over 30,000 illegals (who will cost taxpayers more  money) and a slow halfhearted return to the policies they overturned 5 years ago, the ALP have now tossed up their hands and given up.

Australian borders are completely and dangerously unguarded!

Their only excuse for this incompetence is Abbott, Abbott, Abbott.

On this matter alone Australians should rid themselves of this government.


----------



## drsmith (30 November 2012)

Another six boats.



> 28/11/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 28/11/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 27/11/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 26/11/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2012)

drsmith said:


> Another six boats.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




WOW,
Lucky Tasmania is screaming for new jobs, what a perfect fit, beautifull just beautifull.


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2012)

Your slipping doc, another two boats. This is probably cost neutural, if we cut out the baby bonus.LOL
http://www.smh.com.au/national/two-boats-intercepted-off-christmas-island-20121201-2anaa.html


----------



## drsmith (2 December 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Your slipping doc, another two boats. This is probably cost neutural, if we cut out the baby bonus.LOL
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/two-boats-intercepted-off-christmas-island-20121201-2anaa.html



The people smugglers trade 24/7, unlike Labor, which sleeps at the wheel.

Jason Clare and his staff I suspect, also like to have the weekend off.


----------



## Julia (3 December 2012)

From "The Punch" today:


> ASYLUM seekers in Indonesia have swung into party mode and labelled Julia Gillard a "hero" after learning they will receive welfare payments and rent assistance should they make it to Australia by boat.
> 
> The wannabe citizens are ecstatic the government has conceded detention centres are beyond maximum capacity and that asylum seekers would need to be released into the community while their applications for refugee status were processed.
> 
> ...




Cont. next post


----------



## Julia (3 December 2012)

Cont from previous post


> Solo mother Fatemeh Khavari, 30, told News Ltd she did not have enough money saved to travel by boat to Australia and had spent time living homeless and hungry in Indonesia with her six-month-old son.
> 
> Labor's announcement was music to her ears.
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (3 December 2012)

Continued from previous post:


> "The praise directed at the prime minister may be unwelcome by its recipient, with voters unlikely to be impressed with the notion asylum seekers think they are coming to a country with soft laws.
> 
> A new monthly record was set in November with 2443 people arriving on boats and Ms Gillard was asked yesterday if she would bring back temporary protection visas and tow boats back to Indonesia.
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (3 December 2012)

Continued from previous post:


> Ms Gillard said TPVs and tow backs were not policy options hours before the government announced 75 people on two boats had been rescued by the Navy off Christmas Island.
> 
> "This is a complicated issue for our nation, for nations around the world," Ms Gillard told Channel 10.
> 
> ...



Fantastic.  Some deterrent.


----------



## dutchie (4 December 2012)

Illegals calling the PM a "hero" says it all.


----------



## drsmith (4 December 2012)

Another four boats.



> 02/12/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessels
> 01/12/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessels




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (5 December 2012)

Another two boats.



> 05/12/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 05/12/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## sails (5 December 2012)

What a PATHETIC and useless government to allow this to continue.

How absolutely STUPID of them to wreck the system that was working so well for political point scoring.  
Oh well, that seems to be the dumb labor way...wreck and spend...grrr


----------



## drsmith (6 December 2012)

Chris Bowen's never-ending closing down sale has now evolved into a bulk discount sale.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ri-lanka-for-500/story-fn9hm1gu-1226530845651


----------



## MrBurns (7 December 2012)

They're flying or have flown in by chartered Qantas 747, 1000 people from the detention centres are are just releasing them into pre arranged boarding facilities in Sydney and Melbourne with $220 per week and no work.
These people can barely speak English and come from everywhere, to the land of honey and Centrelink.
I cant think of a more fitting scenerio for crime and violence.



> Support agencies brace for asylum seeker influx




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-07/support-agencies-brace-for-asylum-seeker-influx/4414056


----------



## dutchie (7 December 2012)

sails said:


> What a PATHETIC and useless government to allow this to continue.
> 
> How absolutely STUPID of them to wreck the system that was working so well for political point scoring.
> Oh well, that seems to be the dumb labor way...wreck and spend...grrr






+1    

PATHETIC, STUPID and INCOMPETENT!


----------



## Ijustnewit (7 December 2012)

MrBurns said:


> They're flying or have flown in by chartered Qantas 747, 1000 people from the detention centres are are just releasing them into pre arranged boarding facilities in Sydney and Melbourne with $220 per week and no work.
> These people can barely speak English and come from everywhere, to the land of honey and Centrelink.
> I cant think of a more fitting scenerio for crime and violence.
> 
> ...




I wonder where they got the money for their designer sunglasses


----------



## Calliope (11 December 2012)

> An asylum seeker who was evacuated from Nauru for medical treatment because of a long-term hunger strike has been sent back to the detention centre.
> 
> The Iranian man, known as Omid, was flown to Australia late last month after refusing food for 50 days.




What's so special about this guy? A million Australians suffer eating disabilities.


----------



## drsmith (11 December 2012)

Another boat.



> 11/12/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (15 December 2012)

Another five boats.



> 14/12/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 14/12/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessels




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html



> A boat carrying 101 people was intercepted north of Christmas Island. HMAS Pirie, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted the vessel yesterday after it was initially detected by an RAAF maritime patrol aircraft.






> Also yesterday, a boat carrying 59 people was intercepted by HMAS Bathurst northeast of the Ashmore Islands.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ustralian-waters/story-e6frg6nf-1226537467672


----------



## noco (27 December 2012)

Ha Doc, have the boats stopped coming?

Haven't heard a word for days.

Maybe Gillard has gagged the press


----------



## sptrawler (27 December 2012)

noco said:


> Ha Doc, have the boats stopped coming?
> 
> Haven't heard a word for days.
> 
> Maybe Gillard has gagged the press




No Noco, from information I have been given, the smugglers have agreed to cut it back over the festive season.
This will enable the government to more accurately cater with hams, christmas puddings and presents at the detention centres.
Apparently the Labor party has said they will make up for any shortfall in turkeys, from their own ranks.


----------



## sails (27 December 2012)

noco said:


> Ha Doc, have the boats stopped coming?
> 
> Haven't heard a word for days.
> 
> Maybe Gillard has gagged the press





No, she hasn't gagged the press yet on this issue and no such luck that the boats have stopped either - this from today's Australian:



> *TWO boats carrying more than 100 asylum-seekers have been intercepted in Australian waters since Christmas Day.*
> 
> The latest arrivals will put further strains on the detention network, which has struggled to handle more than 11,000 arrivals since July.




Read more: 100-plus boatpeople since Christmas


----------



## DB008 (29 December 2012)

France taking a fresh approach...to stop dangling a carrot...

http://www.eutimes.net/2012/12/french-government-cuts-immigrants-welfare-by-83/


----------



## Julia (29 December 2012)

The following was one of many similarly outraged comments in response to an article in "The Punch" lamenting how poorly treated are the 'refugees' (the article writer's word) on Nauru:



> My son just applied to get a Tax File Number and we had to send away his passport and medicare card ..... his ACTUAL passport and medicare card to prove his identity. It takes 28-days for the Australian Government to clear my son, who was born in Australia, to get a tax file number.
> 
> How can anyone who shows up on Australian shores without a passport or any form of identity prove who they are to anyone???




Seems a pretty reasonable point, doesn't it?  Yet on arrival in Australia, these people who have had the means to pay people smugglers, receive welfare payments, despite our not knowing who they are or from where they have come.


----------



## drsmith (3 January 2013)

Another seven boats. 



> 24/12/2012 Border Protection Command and Merchant Vessel assist vessels
> 17/12/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 17/12/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 16/12/2012 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...




It's good to see the people smugglers at least have the Christmas/New Year period off, or was that our own public service ?

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## DB008 (4 January 2013)

Is there a way to find out last year total (2012) ?

Total number of boats?
Total illegal immigrants?


----------



## noco (4 January 2013)

DB008 said:


> Is there a way to find out last year total (2012) ?
> 
> Total number of boats?
> Total illegal immigrants?




Just go to Google and enter "HOW MANY ILLEGALBOAT PEOPEL ARRIVED IN 2012". The link below tells it all.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-30/boat-arrivals-record-broken/4162680


----------



## sails (4 January 2013)

I found this elsewhere and it shows it pretty clearly what has worked and what hasn't.  I don't think the last bar shows all the arrivals for 2012...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (5 January 2013)

sails said:


> I found this elsewhere and it shows it pretty clearly what has worked and what hasn't.  I don't think the last bar shows all the arrivals for 2012...
> 
> View attachment 50263




Agree sails.

I don't blame these poor folk for trying to get to Australia but it is clear from the graphs where the blame lies.

Rudd ALP Government
Gillard ALP Government

Our borders have become a nothing under Labor.

gg


----------



## So_Cynical (5 January 2013)

drsmith said:


> Another two boats.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html







drsmith said:


> Another boat.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html






drsmith said:


> Another seven boats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No boats today!!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (5 January 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> No boats today!!




And that is good you reckon.

How many poor bastards drowned today because of ALP policy decided on ideological grounds.

gg


----------



## sails (5 January 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> No boats today!!




The day is not over yet!

And after so many have drowned and so many are taking welfare at the likely expense of our own disadvantaged, you crow about ONE half day with no boats?  Strange logic...

By Gillard's standards, labor has had over 400 policy failures - that's a policy failure for every boat.


----------



## drsmith (5 January 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> No boats today!!



How many have come in 2012 ?

How much taxpayers money has been wasted servicing these arrivals since Labor changed the former Liberal Government's policies ?

How many have drowned since Labor sold its soul to the Greens to remain in office ?

Like many of Labor's policy disasters, this is no laughing matter. :frown:


----------



## drsmith (5 January 2013)

sails said:


> The day is not over yet!



That's as far as Labor looks.

Office for another day.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (6 January 2013)

Can we spare a thought for these genuine refugees, not the rich criminals and Islamist maddies, attempting to get a better life in Australia.

We need their genes.

Such resilience and patience in the face of adversity.

gg


----------



## sails (6 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Can we spare a thought for these genuine refugees, not the rich criminals and Islamist maddies, attempting to get a better life in Australia.
> 
> We need their genes.
> 
> ...




I agree, GG.  Sadly the genuine ones have most likely been put further back in the queue due to the massive influx by boat.

Our compassion and welfare should be reserved for those who are genuine refugees, imo.  The generally to seem to assimilate more easily and are more likely to become good citizens and become self supporting.


----------



## noco (12 January 2013)

Ha Doc, have the boats stopped coming? No media news lately!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Some Dude (12 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Can we spare a thought for these genuine refugees, not the rich criminals and Islamist maddies, attempting to get a better life in Australia.
> 
> We need their genes.
> 
> Such resilience and patience in the face of adversity.




I assume you also mean the rich refugees who are not criminals or islamist maddies also. Certainly you wouldn't be implying that all those with the means to escape to get a better life for their family and children are criminals or islamist maddies.


----------



## DB008 (12 January 2013)

Problems in Sweden.

Does this sound familiar???



> 'Swedish prayer call debate treats Islam like a static religion'
> 
> Ignorant politicians have allowed a vocal minority of the Swedish Muslims who don’t want to adapt to life in a secular and democratic state to dominate the debate about calls to prayer at Sweden's mosques, argues contributor Nima Gholam Ali Pour.


----------



## Some Dude (12 January 2013)

DB008 said:


> Does this sound familiar???




Definitely annoys me when people impose their religious ceremonies on others. I use to live next to a church that would regularly ring their bells. Damn annoying.


----------



## drsmith (12 January 2013)

noco said:


> Ha Doc, have the boats stopped coming? No media news lately!!!!!!!!!



Jason Clare's site has been quiet too. It's interesting to note there was a gap of over three weeks in boat arrival announcements on this site this time last year.



> 17/01/2012 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 24/12/2011 Border Protection Command assists vessel today




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html

Perhaps it's People Smuggler's New Year. 

It could also be that the monsoon over Indonesia and the waters to our north is in full swing.


----------



## DB008 (14 January 2013)

Brits rate immigration as society’s biggest issue – poll



> The British public views immigration as the biggest issue facing society, but UK citizens are basically tolerant to immigration, as long as new arrivals are in work and integrate into society, it was revealed in a poll reported in The Observer.
> 
> The poll found that one in three people believes tension between immigrants and UK citizens is a major cause of division, while over half those questioned believe it is one of the top three causes, a major new survey entitled ‘State of the Nation: Where is Bittersweet Britain Heading?’ found out, the British Sunday paper wrote.
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (21 January 2013)

Just heard on the radio 


*TOTAL* for *2012* - *17,041*


----------



## drsmith (21 January 2013)

No new arrivals on Jason Clare's site since Dec 24, but they are still coming according to the Coalition,

http://www.keenan.net.au/Media/PortfolioMediaReleases.aspx

nor this one, yet.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...christmas-island/story-fn3dxity-1226558330962


----------



## sails (21 January 2013)

Now they are apparently being brought straight to the mainland - so much for the pre-election promise to STOP THE BOATS  - from Andrew Bolt's Blog today:

" The latest boat arrival, carrying 78 people, is the second asylum seeker vessel in a row to be transferred directly to the mainland, despite Labor’s promise to implement tough new offshore processing policies, Shadow Minister for Justice, Customs and Border Protection Michael Keenan said… “Every illegal boat arrival for 2013 has been transferred directly to the mainland, sending a strong and clear message to the people smugglers that this Labor Government just isn’t serious about stopping them.”

And three minutes ago, this news:

    A BOAT carrying asylum seekers which was feared to be missing has been intercepted off Christmas Island this afternoon."​
Read more:  http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/essential_gillard_still_in_death_zone/


----------



## sails (21 January 2013)

drsmith said:


> No new arrivals on Jason Clare's site since Dec 24, but they are still coming according to the Coalition,
> 
> http://www.keenan.net.au/Media/PortfolioMediaReleases.aspx
> 
> ...





I have heard they are not reporting it any more.  Possibly an election strategy hoping people will think there are no more boats.


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2013)

sails said:


> Now they are apparently being brought straight to the mainland - so much for the pre-election promise to STOP THE BOATS  - from Andrew Bolt's Blog today:
> 
> " The latest boat arrival, carrying 78 people, is the second asylum seeker vessel in a row to be transferred directly to the mainland, despite Labor’s promise to implement tough new offshore processing policies, Shadow Minister for Justice, Customs and Border Protection Michael Keenan said… “Every illegal boat arrival for 2013 has been transferred directly to the mainland, sending a strong and clear message to the people smugglers that this Labor Government just isn’t serious about stopping them.”
> 
> ...



Andrew Bolt's link wasn't working, but the information he's posted has come from Michael Keenan's site.



sails said:


> I have heard they are not reporting it any more.  Possibly an election strategy hoping people will think there are no more boats.



If that's the case, an election must be in the wind.


----------



## sails (22 January 2013)

drsmith said:


> Andrew Bolt's link wasn't working, but the information he's posted has come from Michael Keenan's site.
> 
> 
> If that's the case, an election must be in the wind.




Yes you are right about the info coming from Michael Keenan's site.  Apologies as I didn't read your link until after I had posted!


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2013)

The asylum seekers from the boat The Australian has reported are being taken to Xmas Island whereas the ones Michael Keenan refers to were taken directly to the mainland.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...christmas-island/story-fncynkc6-1226558330962

So far, none of these are noted on Jason Clare's site. It will be interesting to see if that's still the case by the close of business tomorrow (Tuesday).


----------



## noco (23 January 2013)

No doubt Gillard and Bowen will take credit for slow down of asylum seekers and will claim their policies are working.

It's the weather stupid...............The monsoon is here.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/boat_arrivals_slow/


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2013)

Jullia apparently was crying when announcing Roxon and Evans departure. 
Her tears wouldn't have been the only ones, I bet there were tears of joy from Chris Bowen getting out of the immigration portfolio.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/a-body-blow-20130202-2dqzd.html


----------



## pixel (2 February 2013)

first effects of the election announcement:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ough-boat-policy/story-e6freuy9-1226567146342



> HOURS after the election date was called, asylum seekers in Indonesia said they had begun scrambling to organise boat travel to Australia.


----------



## Julia (2 February 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Jullia apparently was crying when announcing Roxon and Evans departure.



That's not as I heard it on the radio at 1pm.  Nicola Roxon got choked up, however.  Probably some confusion about who did the weeping.
I was a bit surprised to learn that the Tertiary Education p/f is considered senior to Immigration.  The latter is probably more politically important at present.

Laura Tingle from the AFR was interviewed on RN this morning with the presenter pressing her on what she thought was the real reason for Roxon's sudden resignation.  Tingle was either genuinely at a loss on this, or wasn't saying.

It does seem odd.  Nicola Roxon has been one of the PM's most devout supporters.


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2013)

Roll up roll up, free visa with every new house sold. lol

http://smh.domain.com.au/real-estat...uyers-target-trophy-homes-20130201-2dpy0.html

Bypass the poor, why queue unnecessarily waiting for a boat. Buy the house, bring the family.


Here you go Jullia, Ms Gillard dabbing the nose, it got me choked up.lol

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/a-body-blow-20130202-2dqzd.html


----------



## Julia (2 February 2013)

Thanks, sp.  Here's the bit that was the sound grab on the 1pm news.  A little way in, Ms Roxon gets choked up.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-02/nicola-roxon-annonces-her-resignation/4497384
Hope they had a big group hug at the end.  It's a shame Chris Evans could manage a few tears as well.


----------



## drsmith (3 February 2013)

Julia said:


> Thanks, sp.  Here's the bit that was the sound grab on the 1pm news.  A little way in, Ms Roxon gets choked up.



200% ?

Hyperbowl by any standard.


----------



## Julia (3 February 2013)

Julia said:


> It's a shame Chris Evans could manage a few tears as well.




Sorry.  Obviously, above should have been "couldn't manage a few tears as well."


----------



## noco (11 February 2013)

Don't you just love the way this Green/ Labor left wing socialist government go about things.

They allowed for 12,000 asylum seekers to arrive for the 12 months ending June 2013.

Wait for it, only 12,884 have arrived so far to date and the budget will blow out to double allowed by the worlds greatets treasurer and Gillard has made a big deal out of sending 150 of them to New Zealand. She have sent 884 to bring her forecast back to 12,000.

So whacko, no more boats until July as the quota has been filled so will somebody tell the people smugglers we have put up the "FULL HOUSE SIGN".



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-temporary-visas/story-e6freono-1226575149783


----------



## Julia (11 February 2013)

According to the ABC's NZ correspondent, New Zealanders are less than impressed that they will be participating in Australia's failed border protection by taking 150 of those detained offshore.

Their very rational reasoning is that they would prefer to see NZ's quota filled with people genuinely proven to be refugees.

Such a tiny number anyway which will make no real difference to the situation here.


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2013)

noco said:


> Don't you just love the way this Green/ Labor left wing socialist government go about things.
> 
> They allowed for 12,000 asylum seekers to arrive for the 12 months ending June 2013.
> 
> ...




From the sippets I've read, they are building an Armarda, to make the crossing before the election.
The people smugglers must be cleaning up.


----------



## sptrawler (12 February 2013)

Just when we thought it couldn't get worse on the asylum seeker front.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...in-adult-prisons/story-fncyva0b-1226576492373

It will be very difficult for the coalition to give commitments to anything, with Australia's finances in a complete state of flux.
It would be high fives in the Bowen household tonight, now he isn't preciding over this mess.


----------



## drsmith (13 February 2013)

A lot more boats.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (23 February 2013)

I've given up counting. :frown:

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## dutchie (23 February 2013)

drsmith said:


> I've given up counting. :frown:
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




Its going to get worse before it gets better (and will cost us a big fortune).

From Bolt blog:



Insider Royston Mitchell reports on this deadly and grotesquely expensive farce:


    My colleagues advise me that five boatloads of asylum seekers were offloaded on Christmas Island today. As far as I am aware, this is a new record. Not sure what number were onboard.

    Christmas Island is the biggest money pit in Australian history. Never before has so much money been squandered, wasted, misdirected and lost in such a short period of time. Asylum seekers arrive almost daily, only to be churned through the system in two months or less, and sent to the mainland. The government couldn’t burn through money any faster if it tried. Two navy boats constantly on patrol; RAAF aircraft on patrol; teams of Customs and AFP officers permanently stationed on the island; empty hospitals manned by dozens of health professionals; SERCO spending millions a week; the list goes on. The waste is appalling, and I have certainly never seen anything like it in my life. When Labor says this year’s asylum seeker expenditure will be $2.2 billion, it should be emphasised that this is just the department of immigration’s costs - I would conservatively estimate Customs, Defence, AFP and the other associated departments costing at least $1 billion more, putting this year’s outlay to service the burgeoning asylum seeker industry at more than $3 billion.

    The true (economic) cost of Christmas Island may never be known. So Wayne Swan wants a post-election audit of election policies? Good. Let’s start with Labor’s decision to dismantle the Pacific Solution in 2007. Perhaps the Treasurer would like to explain, before September, how Labor’s ‘humane’ policy has led to a $10 - $20 billion black hole in just five years.

    Five years Labor have had to fix this festering sore. The boats are now what I like to call a ‘United Nations’ of economic opportunists. Europeans, Africans, Asians; dozens of young men in high spirits, thrilled at the prospect of unlimited welfare. When asked why they have travelled to Christmas Island, the answer is almost universally the same: “I lost my job”; “I heard there were jobs in Australia”; “I’m looking for work”, etc, etc.

    Intel in the department has it that there are 30,000+ asylum seekers in Indonesia waiting their turn to travel to Christmas Island, and hundreds of boats are in the pipeline waiting to be launched. My estimate this year is for 35,000 - 40,000 arrivals by the time of the federal election.

    Oh, by the way, somebody might like to ask the new immigration minister why, in the last few years alone, thousands of ‘asylum seekers’ have returned to their supposed ‘country of persecution’. This is another big secret the department is hoping does not become public: asylum seekers are granted Protection visas, only to travel back to Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan, marry their arranged brides and lodge applications for large groups of ‘family members’. And curiously, many of these asylum seekers, returning to their country of origin, do not have jobs; that is, their travel is funded by welfare payments, which they continue to collect while overseas.


----------



## drsmith (23 February 2013)

dutchie said:


> Its going to get worse before it gets better (and will cost us a big fortune).
> 
> From Bolt blog:



I saw that article.

It's what prompted me to return to Jason Clare's site. I wasn't suprised with what I saw.


----------



## Country Lad (23 February 2013)

For the 3 weeks so far in February:


_*Saturday, 02 February 2013 14:00*
HMAS Bathurst, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel north east of Christmas Island overnight.
Initial indications suggest there are *60* people on board.

*Sunday, 03 February 2013 20:45*
HMAS Maryborough, operating under the coordination of the Australian Maritime Safety Authority's Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC Australia), has rendered assistance to a suspected irregular entry vessel that sought assistance north west of Christmas Island today.
Initial indications suggest there are *132* passengers and three crew on board.

*Thursday, 07 February 2013 19:03*
HMAS Maryborough, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel north-east of Christmas Island yesterday afternoon.
Initial indications suggest there were *47* passengers and two crew on board.

*Thursday, 07 February 2013 19:03*
HMAS Maitland, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel east of Christmas Island last night.
Initial indications suggest there were *88* passengers and one crew on board.

*Saturday, 09 February 2013 20:40*
ACV Storm Bay, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel south-west of Scott Reef last night.
Initial indications suggest there are *53* passengers and two crew on board.

*Monday, 11 February 2013 20:15*
ACV Ocean Protector, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel north-north-east of Ashmore Islands yesterday.
Initial indications suggest there are *53* passengers and two crew on board.

*Thursday, 14 February 2013 16:35*
HMAS Albany, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, detected and intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel north of Christmas Island on Tuesday night.
Initial indications suggest there were 35 passengers and two crew on board.

*Friday, 15 February 2013 16:28*
HMAS Pirie operating under the control of Border Protection Command has rendered assistance to a suspected irregular entry vessel that sought assistance north-west of Browse Island overnight.
Initial indications suggest there are *10* passengers and one crew member on board.

*Monday, 18 February 2013 09:52*
HMAS Pirie, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel north-north-east of Ashmore Islands on Saturday evening.
Initial indications suggest there were *58* passengers and two crew on board.

*Monday, 18 February 2013 09:52*
HMAS Albany, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel north of Christmas Island also on Saturday evening.
Initial indications suggest there were *17* people on board.

*Monday, 18 February 2013 18:19*
HMAS Parramatta, operating under the control of Border Protection Command, intercepted a suspected irregular entry vessel north-east of Christmas Island on Friday. Earlier HMAS Albany had responded to a request for assistance that was believed to have been sent from the vessel.
There were *84* passengers and two crew on board.

*Monday, 18 February 2013 18:19*
HMAS Parramatta provided assistance to the vessel as it continued to track towards Christmas Island. HMAS Parramatta continued to monitor the vessel and again sought to render assistance and boarded the vessel yesterday.
With concerns about the seaworthiness of the vessel the passengers were embarked onto HMAS Parramatta. Towards the completion of the transfer effort, the vessel capsized. A number of people entered the water. HMAS Parramatta is confident all people were recovered from the water with some minor injuries reported.
Indications are there were *88* passengers and three crew on board.

*Thursday, 21 February 2013 18:00*
HMAS Glenelg, operating under the coordination of the Australian Maritime Safety Authority's Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC Australia), has rendered assistance to a suspected irregular entry vessel that sought assistance north-east of Christmas Island overnight.
Initial indications suggest there were *66* passengers on board the vessel. Due to deteriorating weather conditions and concern for the safety of passengers on board, the passengers were transferred on to HMAS Glenelg and ACV Ocean Protector._

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## drsmith (23 February 2013)

Country Lad said:


> For the 3 weeks so far in February:



That's a total of 791 and it's still the wet season.


----------



## Julia (23 February 2013)

drsmith said:


> That's a total of 791 and it's still the wet season.



Where are they all being housed?  We have seen a few days ago a result of them being accommodated in student rooms at Macquarie University, where allegedly one of them indecently went into a student's room in the small hours and indecently assaulted her.

Remember the government's plan for them to be housed by individuals and families in the community, such hosts being paid for providing this accommodation? 


> Thousands of applications are believed to have already been made from home owners to participate.
> 
> "It offers interested people the opportunity to host an eligible asylum seeker in their home for a six-week period," a spokesman for the AHN said.
> 
> ...




 There was a radio report recently which said this great plan has failed with only four homes currently hosting guests.


----------



## Cradled Gold (23 February 2013)

Mofra said:


> The "stop the boats" mantra of both governments, combined with offshore processing,  is actually the most expensive solution.
> 
> I dare say even if all 6,000 in detention are granted asylum, the number is so small it wont make a difference to overall Australian "culture" (whatever that is these days).
> 
> It must be awful to live in a state of perpetual fear.




I am afraid that this is EXACTLY the point...Australian "culture" is something REAL and for those who do want to acknowledge it and live within it are deeply offended by statements denouncing its REALITY and also that which threatens it.

I too came here years ago and raised my kids as PROUD Australians! Each having had jobs from the ages of 15yrs. and now grown-up honest tax payers with honest jobs AND helping to fund those who do not respect what is Australia and Australian!

What I find interesting is that for all of those 'fleeing' for those lives, proportionately it seems to be the men and their sons, leaving behind in those awful conditions the most vulnerable, women and children! What sort of moral fiber is there in that mind-set/behaviour???????????????? If the conditions from which they are fleeing are so awful, why are they not sending the women/children and female girls firstly? Especially if they know they may have to wait X amount of months/years before they can get their 'women' out? Shame, Shame on them!!! Women cannot work in most of these countries and the female children are sold to men for....................................


----------



## chiff (24 February 2013)

Is part of the Australian culture to constantly denigrate others?
Maybe some would be willing to tell us how the arrival of boat people has impacted their lives?Has there been a negative impact?


----------



## Country Lad (24 February 2013)

chiff said:


> Maybe some would be willing to tell us how the arrival of boat people has impacted their lives?Has there been a negative impact?







> ......... estimate Customs, Defence, AFP and the other associated departments costing at least $1 billion more, putting this year’s outlay to service the burgeoning asylum seeker industry at more than $3 billion.




Costs that can go to education, health and other services, so we are all impacted.  

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## sails (24 February 2013)

chiff said:


> Is part of the Australian culture to constantly denigrate others?
> Maybe some would be willing to tell us how the arrival of boat people has impacted their lives?Has there been a negative impact?




Chiff, it is adding to the tax burden of Australian working people.  Where do you think the money comes from?  And our own people needing help are having to wait, often years, to get help with housing.

If our own disadvantaged had a spare few thousand dollars (the equivalent of smuggler fees), they would not be in the dire situation they are in.  I have no problem with genuine refugees fleeing persecution but our limited welfare should not be for those who just want to live here at our taxpayer expense.

And, has it been the massive increase in expense providing housing, $10,000 furniture packages, weekly income, medical, legal bills, education, etc, etc to so many arrivals that is now potentially forcing the single parents of children as young as eight back into the work force or live in deeper poverty?

Surely charity begins at home and shouldn't extend to those who simply don't want to work and live a free live at our expense.  Aussies have strict rules before being permitted to receive any sort of welfare - why should boat arrivals who have never contributed a cent to the nation get better treatment?

I see that the Aussie people are the ones being  ripped off.  If you consider us asking for a fair go here as "denigration", then perhaps you have no idea.


----------



## chiff (25 February 2013)

I anticipated that response,and as demonstrated it has not impacted your lives in any way at all.Are you saying that any public expenditure that you do not approve of impacts adversely on your lives?It is a matter of priorities.Why spend money on aboriginal welfare then?
My objection is to the nefarious haters that talk about culture and 'fiber' ...good god!Something tells me that that that individual is auditioning to be a political staffer.
Of course we need a regulated immigration policy but why attack desperate people with specious bulls...
Australia has a small refugee problem  compared to a lot of other countries.And Australia has not got clean hands when it comes to what causes refugees-causes desperate people to risk their lives.


----------



## sails (25 February 2013)

chiff said:


> I anticipated that response,and as demonstrated it has not impacted your lives in any way at all.Are you saying that any public expenditure that you do not approve of impacts adversely on your lives?It is a matter of priorities.Why spend money on aboriginal welfare then?
> My objection is to the nefarious haters that talk about culture and 'fiber' ...good god!Something tells me that that that individual is auditioning to be a political staffer.
> Of course we need a regulated immigration policy but why attack desperate people with specious bulls...
> Australia has a small refugee problem  compared to a lot of other countries.And Australia has not got clean hands when it comes to what causes refugees-causes desperate people to risk their lives.




Where did I attack desperate people?  I said, " I have no problem with genuine refugees fleeing persecution but our limited welfare should not be for those who just want to live here at our taxpayer expense."

It seems you do not want to listen to reason and are here purely for propaganda purposes.

Eventually this will affect every Australian either by raised taxes and/or decreased services in this country.

Never mind, Chiff, the very taxpayers, to whom you seem to have so little respect or concern, will vote and this is one of the big issues which this current government seem to have failed to separate genuine refugees from those who just want a life at other people's expense.

What about the genuine refugees waiting in camps around the world without the money to pay smugglers - some for years?  Are they less important to you?????


----------



## Julia (25 February 2013)

chiff said:


> I anticipated that response,and as demonstrated it has not impacted your lives in any way at all.



You are apparently suggesting that anyone who is not directly physically affected by the arrival of asylum seekers whose passage has been facilitated by people smugglers has no reason to feel concern about this.

On that principle, we would care about nothing that didn't impact on the narrow spectre of our own lives.
Any country whose citizens care nothing about the greater community and the long term ethos and culture of their country will render that country the poorer imo.



> Are you saying that any public expenditure that you do not approve of impacts adversely on your lives?



That's absolutely not my take on what sails is saying.



> My objection is to the nefarious haters that talk about culture and 'fiber' ...good god!Something tells me that that that individual is auditioning to be a political staffer.



That's a pretty emotive and inflammatory comment and hardly necessary imo.
Surely you can discuss the issue without such hyperbolic rhetoric.


----------



## drsmith (25 February 2013)

chiff said:


> Of course we need a regulated immigration policy but ...........



That's what we need. No if's, no but's.

Presently, we don't have it.


----------



## Happy (26 February 2013)

sails said:


> ...
> 
> Surely charity begins at home and shouldn't extend to those who simply don't want to work and live a free live at our expense.  Aussies have strict rules before being permitted to receive any sort of welfare - why should boat arrivals who have never contributed a cent to the nation get better treatment?
> 
> I see that the Aussie people are the ones being  ripped off.  If you consider us asking for a fair go here as "denigration", then perhaps you have no idea.





What is iritating that we elect Government and they behave as dictators.

It is beyond belief that our money are spent as if we just had too much money and were simply running out of ideas what to do with them.

We should fix our problems first and only then fix all the World problems.

If conditions in detention centre are unhuman, anybody is welcome to go back to wherever anybody is going to give them 5 or 6 star hotel treatment.

Far too long we are taken for a ride.
Not sure if this party will get Pauline Hanson treatment, time will tell:

http://riseupaustraliaparty.com/?p=990


----------



## Ijustnewit (27 February 2013)

News to hand
 " Asylum Seeker Charged With Assault" 
Link below,

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top..._L1_Asylum_seeker_charged_with_assault_270213


----------



## chiff (27 February 2013)

Interesting that there were no complaints about excess spending when the money was going into middle class welfare-pork barrelling those that can afford to pay for themselves (like me).That spending surely could have been better directed,but as someone earlier said leaders can behave as dictators,in that case to help a re-election.
Someone said in an previous post that  some of these refugees had money.A few years  ago a politician (conservative) told me the same thing.Of course I asked him to give me examples ...not one was provided.The politician ended up sending me copies from earlier newspapers stating that he was a man of integrity.Strange behaviour! In his defence I think that he believed what he was told about refugees  without questioning it.
And as you have demonstrated the expenditure on the refugees has not impacted personally on any of us,and to claim that it has is stretching it to back your own case.
As I have said we need a regulated immigration policy and by all means deter boat people from making the risky journey to Australia-but why attack these people personally?
Does anyone know any of these refugees that have been allowed into Australia?Have you seen what they do when they get into Australia?
I will save this for another time.


----------



## DB008 (27 February 2013)

Take the blinkers off chiff. This is about a policy that has failed, and failed miserably...

If this were the Libs in power with 17,000+ illegal boat arrivals last year, you'd be up in arms.


The ALP boarder protection policy does NOT work - record number of illegals in 2012!
There isn't proper vetting of said illegal refugees - documents are thrown overboard long before they get here
17,000+ illegal boat arrivals in the 2012 calendar year
Reported to cost between 5k - 10k a ticket (journey), one way - so they have some money
So far, from reports, it is said to have cost the current Government more than $6 BILLION. Not to mention, the ongoing costs (housing, centerlink, medical bills, etc etc etc)


----------



## sails (27 February 2013)

Chiff - why do you think it is Australian taxpayer's responsibility to support people who are not genuine refugees fleeing persecution?


----------



## drsmith (27 February 2013)

chiff said:


> And as you have demonstrated the expenditure on the refugees has not impacted personally on any of us,and to claim that it has is stretching it to back your own case.



It's impacted me personally by the tax I have paid to finance this failure of policy.

Every other taxpayer is in the same (excuse the pun) boat.


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2013)

What about the cost, when they qualify for centerlink? and then when they qualify for an aged pension?

You bunch of wally's are already demonising Australian pensioners that have worked here all their lives.

Now you are saying cut some slack, for people that come illegally, give it a break, you've lost the plot.


----------



## Julia (27 February 2013)

> And as you have demonstrated the expenditure on the refugees has not impacted personally on any of us,and to claim that it has is stretching it to back your own case.



I, and others, have already responded to this.  Most people will, thank goodness, take an interest in their country beyond any immediate impact on their own lives.

What gets me about this sort of repetitive stuff is the absolute refusal to consider the reality that for every boat arrival person who has been able to afford to pay a people smuggler, that is one fewer person who has been waiting patiently in some squalid refugee camp, often for years, after having been determined by the UNHCR to be a genuine refugee.


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2013)

sptrawler said:


> What about the cost, when they qualify for centerlink? and then when they qualify for an aged pension?
> 
> You bunch of wally's are already demonising Australian pensioners that have worked here all their lives.
> 
> Now you are saying cut some slack, for people that come illegally, give it a break, you've lost the plot.




Sorry I should have posted this on " How can we make superannuation fairer"


----------



## Country Lad (28 February 2013)

A demonstration of the abject stupidity of this government's treatment of migrants.

A retired couple who are very good friends came to Australia 7 years ago on a Retirement Visa.  This class of visa is really for only very wealthy people as it requires that you have sufficient funds to pay for all living expenses including  medical, retirement, housing and effectively all living expenses till you die and you are not eligible for any type of government benefit - ever.  That is no problem because these people by definition of the visa are multi-millionaires.

Our friends have now returned to England because the government made it so intolerably difficult for these visa holders.

The government goes out of its way to ensure that they are classed as "Temporary Residents".  They can not become Aus citizens or even permanent residents.  However, because the ATO needs to collect as much money as possible, for tax purposes, they are classed as permanent residents by the ATO even though their visa conditions categorically state temporary.

On top of that, the govt will not guarantee that they can stay, and they need to re-apply for the visa every 5 years. The government makes it clear that a new visa will not be automatically granted and in fact, there is a liklihood that it will not be granted.

On top of that, as a Temporary Resident, there are consistent on-going issues with basic stuff such as they have difficulty in getting services or have to pay a premium such as travel insurance, drivers licences, house insurance etc etc.

Of the 5,000 odd retirement visa holders who spend significant amount of money while living in Aus, about 3,500 have returned to their homeland or to some other country where the government makes them feel welcome.

They thought of returning as refugees, but seeing they are from England and not from a Middle East country or Sri Lanka, that wouldn't work.

Typical idiotic thinking by this government.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## McLovin (28 February 2013)

Country Lad said:


> The government goes out of its way to ensure that they are classed as "Temporary Residents".  They can not become Aus citizens or even permanent residents.  However, because the ATO needs to collect as much money as possible, for tax purposes, they are classed as permanent residents by the ATO even though their visa conditions categorically state temporary.




If they were classed as permanent residents or eligible for citizenship, then they would become eligible for social security and medicare. It works both ways, for instance the little box on the AU departure card about claiming unclaimed money (read: super) only applies to non-citizens. The only way an AU citizen can access that money is by renouncing their AU citizenship.

The definition of resident for tax purposes doesn't necessarily have to be the same as the Department of Immigration's. The ATO's definition is far more subjective. Just be glad you're not American, the IRS taxes you on your worldwide income if you are a US citizen, even if you haven't lived in the US since you were a child.

Certainly understand your friend's annoyance but the system seems pretty fair to me. Didn't realise it was that hard as a temporary resident to get a DL etc. PITA.


----------



## Country Lad (28 February 2013)

It is more the insecurity that has driven these retirement visa people to relocate to other countries or returning to their original homeland.  Many of the problems these people encounter could be solved by the conditions of the visa being such that it will be automatically renewed if the original conditions are still being met.

I have been communicating with many of these people through their investment forum and it is the government indicating the likelihood of the visa not being renewed that is the main issue.  They don't have any problem with the conditions of the visa - it is the government attitude that they are not welcome and most likely the visa will not be renewed regardless of all the conditions being met.  Not a good feeling as they grow older, expecting to be kicked out of the country.  This govt attitude has crept in only in the last few years, before that there was no indication that renewal would not occur.

From the info they gave on the forum, it appears that the average tax paid is about $44,000 per year and the average spend is about $87,000 per year. For the 3,500 who have so far left, that is about a $450 million per year loss to this country - all because the governement elects to make them feel insecure.  That is what I meant by the govt's stupidity.

That would pay for housing quite a few of those arriving by boat without a visa.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Happy (28 February 2013)

Country Lad said:


> ...
> Typical idiotic thinking by this government.
> 
> ...




Couldn't say that better myself.

Reminds me of pensionner from GB that was permanent resident, lived in Australia something like 40 or 50 years.
Had house and few other things.

Went abroad to visit family and was not allowed to re-enter Australia, because did not apply for re-entry visa before she left.
Had to go back to England to apply for visa at the Australian Consulate/Embassy

How for idiotic this is?

She was treated thousand times worse than illegal refugee.


----------



## noco (28 February 2013)

My wife and I have a friend who wants to sponsor a 36 year old single white girl from Accra Ghana. He is prepared to pay her Aged Care/ Nursing fees for a two year study visa, pay her air fares and cost of visa to Austrlaia but this stupid Labor Government stipulates she must be able to prove she is capable of keeping herself to the tune of $18,610 per year.

She has all her documentation certified to be true and correct.

Total cost all up of $66,010 which she must prove to the Australian Immigration Department that she has that amount of money in her own bank account in Ghana before giving her approval for a study visa.

I have you ever heard of such stupidty in my whole life and there you have these Muslim twits arriving daily on our shores.


----------



## noco (28 February 2013)

My wife and I have a friend who wants to sponsor a 36 year old white girl from Ghana in West Africa to study Aged Care Nursing.

It is a two year course and she has all of her documentation certified to meet all the requirements.

He is prepaid to pay the cost her study fees, air fare, her visa and to billet her during her stay in Australia.

However, this stupid Green/Labor Government insists she must prove she has the ability and the resources to the tune of $18,610 per annum ($37,220) to keep herself while living in Australia together with the cost of the tuition fees, airfares, study visa.

Total cost $66,010 of which she must prove to the Australian Immigration Department that she has in her bank account Accra Ghana before givng her approval for a study visa.

I have never heard of such stupidity in my whole life and then you learn of these Muslim twits arriving on our shores every day without documentation.


----------



## noco (28 February 2013)

noco said:


> My wife and I have a friend who wants to sponsor a 36 year old white girl from Ghana in West Africa to study Aged Care Nursing.
> 
> It is a two year course and she has all of her documentation certified to meet all the requirements.
> 
> ...




My apology for the duplication as I thought I lost the first one completely, then it some how reappeared.


----------



## DB008 (28 February 2013)

noco said:


> My wife and I have a friend who wants to sponsor a 36 year old white girl from Ghana in West Africa to study Aged Care Nursing.
> 
> It is a two year course and she has all of her documentation certified to meet all the requirements.
> 
> ...




Not unusual.
Have heard of similar stories first hand. Couple from Switzerland denied entry to Australia. I now tell people, want to come to Australia, fly to Bali and hop on a boat.


----------



## Julia (28 February 2013)

McLovin said:


> If they were classed as permanent residents or eligible for citizenship, then they would become eligible for social security and medicare.



Doesn't Australia have a reciprocal agreement re health care with England, as we do with New Zealand?
Wouldn't Country Lad's friends be entitled to this here?

Ditto couldn't they use their UK Driver's Licence here? 



Country Lad said:


> It is more the insecurity that has driven these retirement visa people to relocate to other countries or returning to their original homeland.  Many of the problems these people encounter could be solved by the conditions of the visa being such that it will be automatically renewed if the original conditions are still being met.



 That sounds perfectly reasonable.
I'm really surprised that your friends should find themselves in such an uncertain and vulnerable position.
Absolutely don't understand why it should be so, though I've met many people from South Africa and Zimbabwe who are also very well off, but have been unable to get residency here.

Yet we seem to have no limit on admission for those who can't speak English, have no interest in assimilating into Australia and quite possibly will be a drain on the welfare purse for much of their lives.

It's an issue on which I would like to hear the Coalition's policy .


----------



## drsmith (1 March 2013)

Michael Smith got hold of a list of current immigration department contracts with a value of $100,000 or more. 

http://michaelsmithnews.typepad.com/files/immigration-department-contracts.pdf

It's a very long list and the total value at the bottom is over $8bn.


----------



## McLovin (1 March 2013)

Julia said:


> Doesn't Australia have a reciprocal agreement re health care with England, as we do with New Zealand?
> Wouldn't Country Lad's friends be entitled to this here?




My understanding is that the reciprocal health agreement only works for immediate/emergency care. When I lived in the UK I had to visit a doctor and would have been charged if I didn't have a National Insurance number, even though I am a British citizen. Seeing a dr in the UK is major PITA, you actually have to register with them _before_ you can make an appointment.



> The Australian Government has signed Reciprocal Health Care Agreements with the governments of the Republic of Ireland and New Zealand which entitles you to limited subsidised health services for medically necessary treatment while visiting Australia.
> 
> Medical services not covered by Medicare
> 
> ...







Julia said:


> Ditto couldn't they use their UK Driver's Licence here?




You can't live in Australia and use a foreign license.


----------



## sails (1 March 2013)

drsmith said:


> Michael Smith got hold of a list of current immigration department contracts with a value of $100,000 or more.
> 
> http://michaelsmithnews.typepad.com/files/immigration-department-contracts.pdf
> 
> It's a very long list and the total value at the bottom is over $8bn.




Look at this page (from that link) - here is nearly $750 million to "increase clients independence, economic and personal well being and community connectedness for all eligible entrants tin Melton-Wyndham an Western Melbourne."

Why are they called "clients" and not "Recipients"???







$750 million is about the pittance the government wants to save over FOUR years by having kids as young as eight being latch key kids with their only parent being forced out to work or the alternative is to live in greater poverty.  In fact, centrelink now require single parents of children as young as six to be reporting every three months and want them in study or work.  I know because my sick daughter's youngest is now six and we now have the added issue of getting medical certificates and sitting in centrelink waiting for appointments (this week it was a two hour wait with my daughter very nauseous and something was wrong with the air-conditioning as it was terribly stuffy in there).

Why tax payer's money is now being funnelled off to provide welfare to people who have never contributed anything to this country while removing it from our own is unbelievable.

And that is only one of 96 pages of expenses with a value of $100,000 or more....


----------



## chops_a_must (1 March 2013)

I'd take an immigrant on welfare over an australian born on welfare any day of the week.

At least I'd know that they or their children are likely to contribute more to society over the course of their lives.

Hence, immigrant children are smashing the scholarshipsand education results. In Darwin, the refo kids are blitzing it. And within a year or two have better literacy and numeracy skills than most territory born kids.


----------



## Julia (1 March 2013)

McLovin said:


> My understanding is that the reciprocal health agreement only works for immediate/emergency care.



Such as if you have an accident or become ill while travelling, I suppose.
It seems very unfair to me that people who passing through get a better deal than someone who is living here and spending on an ongoing basis.



> You can't live in Australia and use a foreign license.



Again, you can use a foreign licence if here temporarily, so further disadvantage for someone making an ongoing contribution.  No wonder they're disenchanted.


----------



## McLovin (1 March 2013)

Julia said:


> Such as if you have an accident or become ill while travelling, I suppose.
> It seems very unfair to me that people who passing through get a better deal than someone who is living here and spending on an ongoing basis.




It's probably a legacy thing that was designed before travel insurance was widespread. The cost of providing ongoing healthcare to someone over 65 is not really something any government wants if it can be avoided. A temporary resident can by definition leave at any time, while an PR/citizen is generally considered to be more "settled". Otherwise where is the line to be drawn? Someone here on a sponsored visa is a temporary resident, should they receive full healthcare the moment they get off the plane? There's quite a big issue with Kiwis not being aware that they are not covered until they have permanant residency in Australia.




Julia said:


> Again, you can use a foreign licence if here temporarily, so further disadvantage for someone making an ongoing contribution.  No wonder they're disenchanted.




This is a standard law in almost every country. I'd love to cruise around with my old UK license, go through a speed camera and no demerit points lost and likely I'd never have to pay either the bill would turn up at my old address in the UK.


----------



## DB008 (1 March 2013)

McLovin said:


> My understanding is that the reciprocal health agreement only works for immediate/emergency care. When I lived in the UK I had to visit a doctor and would have been charged if I didn't have a National Insurance number, even though I am a British citizen. Seeing a dr in the UK is major PITA, you actually have to register with them _before_ you can make an appointment.




I worked in London for 1 year in 2005/2006, using a EU Passport.

Had a ingrown toe-nail removed while there. Literally just called up my local doctors and had it cut out a few days later. Didn't pay a cent. I was surprised. Also, paid a lot less tax.


----------



## drsmith (1 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> I'd take an immigrant on welfare over an australian born on welfare any day of the week.
> 
> At least I'd know that they or their children are likely to contribute more to society over the course of their lives.
> 
> Hence, immigrant children are smashing the scholarshipsand education results. In Darwin, the refo kids are blitzing it. And within a year or two have better literacy and numeracy skills than most territory born kids.



The fundamental argument is I think was about helping our own citizens before helping others. There's also the questions of how such a large expenditure on the budget influences our taxes and the disorderly nature of arrivals.


----------



## chops_a_must (1 March 2013)

drsmith said:


> The fundamental argument is I think was about helping our own citizens before helping others. There's also the questions of how such a large expenditure on the budget influences our taxes and the disorderly nature of arrivals.




So what is it we do and how effective is it?


----------



## drsmith (1 March 2013)

Stop the boats.


----------



## Macquack (1 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> I'd take an immigrant on welfare over an australian born on welfare any day of the week.




What is your point here, are you suggesting a clean swap, one refugee in exchange for one Australian born welfare recipient?



chops_a_must said:


> At least I'd know that they or their children are likely to contribute more to society over the course of their lives.
> 
> Hence, immigrant children are smashing the scholarshipsand education results. In Darwin, the refo kids are blitzing it. And within a year or two have better literacy and numeracy skills than most territory born kids.




Using your above example, the "average Australian" could see Asylum seekers as a possible threat to their easy going lifestyle.


----------



## IFocus (1 March 2013)

Scott Morrison bungle what a fool



> On Thursday, the storm over opposition immigration spokesman Scott Morrison's call for asylum seekers living in the community to be monitored by police and conform to ''behaviour protocols'' entered its second day.




Few asylum seekers charged with crime



> Asylum seekers living in the community on bridging visas are about 45 times less likely to be charged with a crime than members of the general public.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-with-crime-20130228-2f98h.html#ixzz2MHSi8pKr


----------



## Calliope (1 March 2013)

IFocus said:


> Few asylum seekers charged with crime




They are a protected species.


----------



## Julia (1 March 2013)

If you're referring to the potential of a child born into a multi-generational welfare dependent family, then yes, I agree.

But plenty of hard working people with a good work ethic can be temporarily on a government benefit so it's pretty unfair to apply such a generalisation.


----------



## IFocus (2 March 2013)

IFocus said:


> Scott Morrison bungle what a fool
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Abbott our future PM claims Morrison is doing a magnificent job at what........grubby politics.

Facts flee as politicians take low road on asylum

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...d-on-asylum-20130301-2fbjb.html#ixzz2MKU0agg5


----------



## drsmith (2 March 2013)

IFocus said:


> Abbott our future PM claims Morrison is doing a magnificent job at what........



Talking to yourself now IF ? 

Once in government, the Coalition will do a far batter job on managing our borders than the chaos that has evolved under Labor.

For now, the Coalition is just rubbing the government's nose in its own mess.


----------



## dutchie (2 March 2013)

Sarah Hanson-Young is too Young she acts like a child and has no idea of the real world (like most of the Greens).


Sarah Hanson-Young is the problem, not the solution
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com..._hanson_young_is_the_problem_not_the_solution


----------



## DB008 (4 March 2013)

Hmm....what can I say?

*Putting a Price on Foreigners: Strict Immigration Laws 'Save Denmark Billions'*



> Denmark's strict immigration laws have saved the country 6.7 billion euros, a government report has claimed. Even though Denmark already has some of the toughest immigration laws in Europe, right-wing populist politicians are now trying to make them even more restrictive.
> 
> Pind was talking after the ministry's report -- initiated by the right-wing populist Danish People's Party (DPP) -- came to the conclusion that by tightening immigration laws, Denmark has saved â‚¬6.7 billion ($10 billion) over the last 10 years, money which otherwise would supposedly have been spent on social benefits or housing. According to the figures, migrants from non-Western countries who did manage to come to Denmark have cost the state â‚¬2.3 billion, while those from the West have actually contributed â‚¬295 million to government coffers.





http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/putting-a-price-on-foreigners-strict-immigration-laws-save-denmark-billions-a-759716.html


----------



## Daffyduck (12 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> I'd take an immigrant on welfare over an australian born on welfare any day of the week.
> 
> At least I'd know that they or their children are likely to contribute more to society over the course of their lives.
> 
> Hence, immigrant children are smashing the scholarshipsand education results. In Darwin, the refo kids are blitzing it. And within a year or two have better literacy and numeracy skills than most territory born kids.





Looking at some of the services and costs on that list it's no wonder the refo's are blitzing it. Do our youth or underprivileged get the same level of specialized education or services? What a joke.


----------



## Calliope (13 March 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> Hence, immigrant children are smashing the scholarshipsand education results. In Darwin, the refo kids are blitzing it. And within a year or two have better literacy and numeracy skills than most territory born kids.




I think you'll find that these "refo kids" as you call them, are mainly Asian and not Middle Eastern. Do you have any statistics on how many boat arrivals actually settle in Darwin?


----------



## drsmith (14 March 2013)

More boats.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2013)

Calliope said:


> I think you'll find that these "refo kids" as you call them, are mainly Asian and not Middle Eastern. Do you have any statistics on how many boat arrivals actually settle in Darwin?




My money would be on the middle eastern are taxi drivers or on welfare.
But chops a must could correct me on that.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 March 2013)

Can we please not bash migrants.

Many of these poor bastards did it tough getting here.

Many are beholden to patriarchal belief systems, and it will take their progeny a generation or two, to be delivered from those bizarre beliefs, and become at one with Australian values.

It is the politicians in an attempt to sway their factions, who feed off xenophobia, like Gillard and O'Connor, who need to be held to account.

gg


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Can we please not bash migrants.
> 
> Many of these poor bastards did it tough getting here.
> 
> ...




Just a shame it isn't like the group settlers, who were given the opportunity but had to work for it.
Now your given the opportunity, but get payed for it.lol


----------



## bellenuit (15 March 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Can we please not bash migrants.
> 
> Many of these poor bastards did it tough getting here.
> 
> ...




I can't agree GG. I will be quite non-PC and say that what you say is correct in general, but not in specific. The specific being Muslim immigrants. There are surveys done in the UK which suggest that something like 60+% of Muslim youth in the UK that were born in the UK believe (violent) jihad is acceptable to achieve their aims. Countries, like The Netherlands, that were the epitome of tolerance are now regretting their willingness to compromise with the demands of Muslim immigrants. They are destroying Western society as we know it and are being abetted by the Left who see all things Western as bad, so anything that is anti-West is by definition good, even though it may be the direct opposite to what the Left espouses in other areas. For example, see how many of those who protested against the visit of Geert Wilders will be protesting against the visit of Dr Abdul Rahman al-Sudais at the so called Australian Islamic Peace Conference.

I would agree that 90+% of Muslim immigrants are not in any way aligned with the extremists, but if push came to shove I do not believe that they would stand up for Western principles of freedom against what Islam teaches. Their faith reigns supreme and their faith is in a religion that is obnoxious to the ideals we value in the West.


----------



## dutchie (20 March 2013)

Unsecured borders.

$7 billion wasted down the drain. Expenses to continue.

Gillard - "Another boat, another policy failure".

This alone is enough to send any government, around the world, out of office.


Gillard, Rudd, Shorten, Combet, Crean, Carr - who cares - get rid of the incompetence!


----------



## DB008 (20 March 2013)

11 days, 11 boats....


----------



## DB008 (20 March 2013)

bellenuit said:


> I can't agree GG. I will be quite non-PC and say that what you say is correct in general, but not in specific. The specific being Muslim immigrants. There are surveys done in the UK which suggest that something like 60+% of Muslim youth in the UK that were born in the UK believe (violent) jihad is acceptable to achieve their aims. Countries, like The Netherlands, that were the epitome of tolerance are now regretting their willingness to compromise with the demands of Muslim immigrants. They are destroying Western society as we know it and are being abetted by the Left who see all things Western as bad, so anything that is anti-West is by definition good, even though it may be the direct opposite to what the Left espouses in other areas. For example, see how many of those who protested against the visit of Geert Wilders will be protesting against the visit of Dr Abdul Rahman al-Sudais at the so called Australian Islamic Peace Conference.
> 
> I would agree that 90+% of Muslim immigrants are not in any way aligned with the extremists, but if push came to shove I do not believe that they would stand up for Western principles of freedom against what Islam teaches. Their faith reigns supreme and their faith is in a religion that is obnoxious to the ideals we value in the West.




bellenuit - I think this post sums it up.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2013)

I can't think where else to post this.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-chinese-buyout-has-just-begun-20130320-2gfrz.html

The watering down of Australian sovereignty is going to cost us eventually.


----------



## drsmith (23 March 2013)

More boats.



> 22/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 20/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 20/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 19/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## dutchie (25 March 2013)

Number of refugees seeking asylum here continues to rise

    Australia's asylum claims topped 16,000 in 2012, up 37 per cent

    Compared with an eight per cent rise in 44 industrialised countries

    Three ships arrived over the weekend

More than 120 asylum seekers arrived on three boats over the weekend with new UNHCR figures showing refugee claims in Australia are increasing *five times faster* than the rest of the world. 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ontinues-to-rise/story-fncvk70o-1226604561132



Hey Julia, "another boat another policy failure"


----------



## dutchie (25 March 2013)

drsmith said:


> More boats.
> 
> 
> 22/03/2013 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel – “another boat another policy failure”
> ...




***My additions to post.


----------



## drsmith (25 March 2013)

*Immigration client acquisition report 25MAR2013*

I've taken a line out of Michael Smith's book.

Four more boats in the past two days,



> 25/03/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 24/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 24/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 24/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## dutchie (25 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 25MAR2013*



drsmith said:


> I've taken a line out of Michael Smith's book.
> 
> Four more boats in the past two days,
> 
> ...




or 

24/03/2013 - Australian taxpayer (with unlimited funds) welcomes another vessel..
.......


----------



## drsmith (25 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 25MAR2013*

Intraday update,



> Two people are dead after an asylum seeker boat carrying 95 people capsized off Christmas Island.
> 
> The Government has confirmed two people drowned, and another two people are critically injured.
> 
> A Customs boat in the area plucked 93 people from the water after the fishing boat overturned.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-25/boat-capsizes-off-christmas-island/4592816


----------



## MrBurns (25 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 25MAR2013*



drsmith said:


> Intraday update,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-25/boat-capsizes-off-christmas-island/4592816




I was going to say we can add murderer to Gillards CV but that's already there after the pink batts fiasco.


----------



## dutchie (25 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 25MAR2013*



drsmith said:


> Intraday update,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-25/boat-capsizes-off-christmas-island/4592816




"Another boat another policy failure" and tragically two more deaths.


----------



## MrBurns (25 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 25MAR2013*



MrBurns said:


> _I was going to say we can add murderer to Gillards CV but that's already there after the pink batts fiasco_.




Strike that it was a bit rough


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 26MAR2013*

Five more boats, 368 arrivals including two dead in 24 hours.



> 25/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
> 25/03/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 25/03/2013  Statement
> 25/03/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 26MAR2013*

Meanwhile, Labor just goes around in the same circles,



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has called on the opposition and the Greens to back her government's people-swap plan with Malaysia, after another asylum seeker boat tragedy.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...plan-on-asylum-seekers-pm-20130326-2gr3d.html


----------



## So_Cynical (26 March 2013)

An open question to the ASF right.

Wondering if anyone can tell me one thing the noalition has done in the last 5 years to help the boat arrivals/kids drowning at sea problem.

Anything?


----------



## ColB (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> An open question to the ASF right.
> 
> Wondering if anyone can tell me one thing the noalition has done in the last 5 years to help the boat arrivals/kids drowning at sea problem.
> 
> Anything?




How could anyone seriously think that this Labor government should be running this country!  We'll all be drowning in Labor's sea of debt.


----------



## dutchie (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> An open question to the ASF right.
> 
> Wondering if anyone can tell me one thing the noalition has done in the last 5 years to help the boat arrivals/kids drowning at sea problem.
> 
> Anything?




1. They have tried to get rid of this pathetic government!

    The reason they have done this is because this pathetic government changed a successful policy (yes, admittedly, it was a Liberal Policy) where only single digit boats where arriving and therefore *no* lives were being lost and now we are getting a flood of boats and consequent deaths.


----------



## dutchie (26 March 2013)

Wondering if anyone can tell me one thing the *government* has done in the last 5 years to help the boat arrivals/kids drowning at sea problem.

Anything?


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> An open question to the ASF right.
> 
> Wondering if anyone can tell me one thing the noalition has done in the last 5 years to help the boat arrivals/kids drowning at sea problem.
> 
> Anything?



More than Labor.

The opposition didn't implement the policies that created the problem in the first place.

NEXT............


----------



## sails (26 March 2013)

drsmith said:


> More than Labor.
> 
> The opposition didn't implement the policies that created the problem in the first place.
> 
> NEXT............




What a silly question from So_Cynical.  The opposition had a system in place that effectively protected our borders and then he asks a stupid question as to why the opposition (who haven't had the numbers) haven't fixed it....

Surely it doesn't have to be explained to him the *no*vernment broke the system that was actually introduced with bi-partisan support.  This is what the negative Gillard had to say about something that actually worked:



Real clever, hey So_Cynical???


----------



## So_Cynical (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> An open question to the ASF right.
> 
> Wondering if anyone can tell me one thing the noalition has done in the last 5 years to help the boat arrivals/kids drowning at sea problem.
> 
> Anything?




-----------------------



ColB said:


> How could anyone seriously think that this Labor government should be running this country!  We'll all be drowning in Labor's sea of debt.







dutchie said:


> 1. They have tried to get rid of this pathetic government!
> 
> The reason they have done this is because this pathetic government changed a successful policy (yes, admittedly, it was a Liberal Policy) where only single digit boats where arriving and therefore *no* lives were being lost and now we are getting a flood of boats and consequent deaths.







dutchie said:


> Wondering if anyone can tell me one thing the *government* has done in the last 5 years to help the boat arrivals/kids drowning at sea problem.
> 
> Anything?






drsmith said:


> More than Labor.
> 
> The opposition didn't implement the policies that created the problem in the first place.
> 
> NEXT............




So its unanimous - the Noalition has done nothing.

Nothing at all, not even pass legislation allowing the govt of the day to do what ever it wants, and yet says the Govt has done nothing, a Govt that holds 71 seats in the house of reps compared to the Noalitions 72 seats.

I'm glad we can agree on something.


----------



## sails (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> -----------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So, on that basis, the people didn't want labor in government.  Hahahaha

It seems democracy is not important to labor.


----------



## sails (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical - so why did labor break something that even one of the smugglers are now saying worked effeciently?  How hopeless are the noverment you support??? 



> *AN alleged people-smuggling kingpin awaiting extradition from Indonesia says Australia could stop the boats if it employed tactics used during John Howard's time as prime minister.
> *
> Indonesian authorities have confirmed Sayed Abbas is set to face an extradition hearing next month after Australian officials handed over the necessary paperwork late last week.




*Howard asylum-seeker tactics worked, says people-smuggler Sayed Abbas*


----------



## dutchie (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> -----------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Awesome So_Cynical.

You win. Can't beat that argument.

Keep feeding Julia Gillard that too. It's a winner for Labor!


----------



## dutchie (26 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> -----------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Success at last So_Cynical.

Now what other abject Labor failures can we blame the Coalition for???


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> So its unanimous - the Noalition has done nothing.
> 
> Nothing at all, not even pass legislation allowing the govt of the day to do what ever it wants, and yet says the Govt has done nothing, a Govt that holds 71 seats in the house of reps compared to the Noalitions 72 seats.
> 
> I'm glad we can agree on something.



They need a majority of the house to govern, like Labor and its partners currently have, in both houses.


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2013)

sails said:


> So_Cynical - so why did labor break something that even one of the smugglers are now saying worked effeciently?  How hopeless are the noverment you support???
> 
> *Howard asylum-seeker tactics worked, says people-smuggler Sayed Abbas*



On ABC's 7:30 last night, it was reported that criminals are transferring people from Iran to just off Christmas Island in 5-days. 

No link unfortunately. This segment is missing from ABC's 7:30 site.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 27MAR2013*

Two more boats carrying a total of 188 people.



> 26/03/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 26/03/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## Julia (27 March 2013)

drsmith said:


> On ABC's 7:30 last night, it was reported that criminals are transferring people from Iran to just off Christmas Island in 5-days.



Yes, and that arrivals are no longer mostly from Iraq and Afghanistan.  
Relevant extract from transcript of last night's broadcast:


> CHRIS UHLMANN: '7:30' understands intelligence shows hundreds more people are in transit to Australia right now and it's clear the mix of those claiming asylum is changing. This year three boats have arrived directly from Vietnam carrying 67 people.
> 
> There's also been arrivals from Lebanon, Egypt, Albania and the United Arab Emirates. And there's been a steady flow of Iranians that are being assessed as economic, not political refugees. They're coming through what's been described as a well organised criminal pipeline with the average travelling time between leaving Tehran and arriving on Christmas Island now averaging five days.




Why aren't these people simply being sent straight back?  Of course the flow will increase as more and more people decide life on welfare in Australia beats what they have in their home country.


----------



## drsmith (28 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 28MAR2013*

One boat carrying 147 people.



> 27/03/2013  Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## Ijustnewit (28 March 2013)

News out from Scott Morrison's office today .

Since the dumping of Howards policy in 2008 by Labor.
600 boats carrying over 35,000 people.
6.6 Billion in budget blow outs and growing.
Link Below

http://www.liberal.org.au/latest-ne...t-press-release-600-boats-600-policy-failures


----------



## So_Cynical (29 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 28MAR2013*



drsmith said:


> One boat carrying 147 people.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




And what is the noalition doing about it? what is the party/s with the biggest majority doing about it?, 700+ people dead and what is 1 vote Tony doing about it? 

Because if he really did care he would do something about it.


----------



## sptrawler (29 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 28MAR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> And what is the noalition doing about it? what is the party/s with the biggest majority doing about it?, 700+ people dead and what is 1 vote Tony doing about it?
> 
> Because if he really did care he would do something about it.




He will do something about it, kick Labors @rse out of office, big time.LOL


----------



## sails (29 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 28MAR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> And what is the noalition doing about it? what is the party/s with the biggest majority doing about it?, 700+ people dead and what is 1 vote Tony doing about it?
> 
> Because if he really did care he would do something about it.




SC - surely you understand Abbott doesn't have the numbers YET to deal with this problem.  Gillard refuses to go to an election early, choosing to leave our borders wide open and massive expense to us.

And, don't forget that Gillard has a friendly senate.  She is not dependant on the coalition in either house.

Because you choose to ignore reality, I can only assume that your post is nothing but labor propaganda.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 March 2013)

Let us be careful not to demonise the refugees.

Rather focus on the muppet ALP policies which have led to an exponential increase in dangerous boat journeys since they achieved power under Rudd and were re-elected under Gillard.

The Australian population share the shame by voting muppets in to government twice, who were unable to stop this migration, replete with death and shameful corruption in their passage.

gg


----------



## sails (29 March 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Let us be careful not to demonise the refugees.
> 
> Rather focus on the muppet ALP policies which have led to an exponential increase in dangerous boat journeys since they achieved power under Rudd and were re-elected under Gillard.
> 
> ...





I have no problem with genuine refugees - but it looks like very few of arrivals under labor are actually genuine refugees.  The fact they can get through other countries with ID and then arrive here with none doesn't look as if it's honest by a long shot.

A few weeks ago I had reason to be at the school reception and in front of me was a muslim woman.  She was enrolling a child and then the receptionist handed over a brand new Disney princess bag (complete with drink bottle).  The bag looked quite heavy so I can only guess it was full of books.  The mother was so grateful that now her child could now learn.  If that woman was a genuine refugee, I would have felt so proud of my country for helping.  But the question remains...was she a genuine refugee or just another one taking advantage of hard working Aussie taxpayers?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 March 2013)

sails said:


> I have no problem with genuine refugees - but it looks like very few of arrivals under labor are actually genuine refugees.  The fact they can get through other countries with ID and then arrive here with none doesn't look as if it's honest by a long shot.
> 
> A few weeks ago I had reason to be at the school reception and in front of me was a muslim woman.  She was enrolling a child and then the receptionist handed over a brand new Disney princess bag (complete with drink bottle).  The bag looked quite heavy so I can only guess it was full of books.  The mother was so grateful that now her child could now learn.  If that woman was a genuine refugee, I would have felt so proud of my country for helping.  But the question remains...was she a genuine refugee or just another one taking advantage of hard working Aussie taxpayers?




I think all Australians share your doubt.

But we still share the blame for voting an ALP government in that allowed these doubts to occur.

I generally give the benefit of doubt, assured that the second or third generation will be Aussies, unless they are unfortunate enough to be relocated in to the criminal trans-generational sectarian elements in Sydney or Melbourne.

Again it's all the ALP's fault.

And we are at fault for voting the ALP in.

gg


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 28MAR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> And what is the noalition doing about it? what is the party/s with the biggest majority doing about it?, 700+ people dead and what is 1 vote Tony doing about it?
> 
> Because if he really did care he would do something about it.



The Coalition doesn't have a majority in either house at the present time whereas Labor and it's partners in government have a majority in both houses.

There's an election soon and your vote can help.


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*

Three more boats carrying 193 people.



> 28/03/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessels
> 28/03/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## noco (29 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 28MAR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> And what is the noalition doing about it? what is the party/s with the biggest majority doing about it?, 700+ people dead and what is 1 vote Tony doing about it?
> 
> Because if he really did care he would do something about it.




Labor could have had the Malaysia deal passed months with the Greens. Nothing to do with Abbott. Don't talk rot.


----------



## banco (29 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 28MAR2013*

Pretty nonsensical thing to say given the greens oppose the Malaysia solution.


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2013)

The Greens are part of the government and as such share the responsibility of government.


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2013)

Tony Abbott was right when he said Labor was only raising its Malaysia solution again as an excuse to do nothing.



> The minister confirmed that he had not yet met Malaysian government officials to discuss ways of improving the two nations' people-swap deal, which was ruled unlawful by he High Court.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/asylum-boat-picked-up-near-darwin-20130329-2gxzj.html


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2013)

I was watching 'Border Protection' on tv, at the same time I was thinking what a waste of time when everyone is coming through Christmas Island.
I wonder how many ' normal Australians' think the same thing.


----------



## So_Cynical (31 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



drsmith said:


> Three more boats carrying 193 people.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




What's the noalition doing about it????


----------



## sails (31 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> What's the noalition doing about it????





Oh for goodness sake, SC - they are not the ones in government.  Gillard has a friendly senate and friendly independents - why doesn't she fix it???

It is the government's responsibility - how many more times are you going to keep asking this dumb question despite the obvious answer??...


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> What's the noalition doing about it????




Better still What's the Government doing about it?

I suppose eventually if they let enough people in on bridgeing visas, then put them into the community, it will push wages down or crimes up.LOL

You really are rusted on, penetrene wouldn't get you to let go.

Just wish I had the personality to go TPD.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (31 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



sails said:


> Oh for goodness sake, SC - they are not the ones in government.  Gillard has a friendly senate and friendly independents - why doesn't she fix it???
> 
> It is the government's responsibility - how many more times are you going to keep asking this dumb question despite the obvious answer??...




+1

gg


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



sails said:


> Oh for goodness sake, SC - they are not the ones in government.  Gillard has a friendly senate and friendly independents - why doesn't she fix it???
> 
> It is the government's responsibility - how many more times are you going to keep asking this dumb question despite the obvious answer??...




Let's be honest sails, the government wants this.

The question is why?

What is the end game?


----------



## noco (31 March 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



sptrawler said:


> Let's be honest sails, the government wants this.
> 
> The question is why?
> 
> What is the end game?




Gillard wants more votes so she is leaving the gate open. 

But even if she sent the "QUEEN MARY" and brought back a boat load ten times she still would not get enough votes to get her over the line.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



noco said:


> Gillard wants more votes so she is leaving the gate open.
> 
> But even if she sent the "QUEEN MARY" and brought back a boat load ten times she still would not get enough votes to get her over the line.




I don't think it's about votes.


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> What's the noalition doing about it????



Your vote at the upcoming election will be a small step in helping them repair the damage Labor has done.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (1 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



drsmith said:


> Your vote at the upcoming election will be a small step in helping them repair the damage Labor has done.




Does anyone know who the biggest manufacturer of bins is in Australia?

I hear returning officers plan to buy fifty for each polling booth so that voters can place their baseball bats in em, before they enter to vote.

gg


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Does anyone know who the biggest manufacturer of bins is in Australia?
> 
> I hear returning officers plan to buy fifty for each polling booth so that voters can place their baseball bats in em, before they enter to vote.
> 
> gg



I'm tempted to actually get a plastic inflatable one and take it to the polling place.


----------



## sails (1 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



sptrawler said:


> Let's be honest sails, the government wants this.
> 
> The question is why?
> 
> What is the end game?





Yes, it's obvious that the government doesn't want to stop the boats or they would do something more convincing about it - but just can't believe SC for repeatedly asking the same stupid question when the answer is obvious.  He must think we are a bunch of idiots and that he make us think it's all the coalition's fault.  

Maybe the election will wake him up...


----------



## drsmith (1 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 29MAR2013*



noco said:


> Gillard wants more votes so she is leaving the gate open.
> 
> But even if she sent the "QUEEN MARY" and brought back a boat load ten times she still would not get enough votes to get her over the line.



Perhaps more so in the longer term than the short term.

The main reason I feel is that underneath all their bluster, it keeps their Green partners in government happy. It's for an extra 5-minutes if office.



sails said:


> Maybe the election will wake him up...



He's just finding denial harder by the day.


----------



## drsmith (2 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 02APR2013*

Four more boats carrying 307 passengers.



> 01/04/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 01/04/2013  Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 30/03/2013  Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 30/03/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## So_Cynical (2 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 02APR2013*



drsmith said:


> Four more boats carrying 307 passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




What will the Noalition do about it? private members bill, negotiate with the indis and greens, Anything???

Or all talk and dead kiddies?


----------



## drsmith (2 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 02APR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> What will the Noalition do about it? private members bill, negotiate with the indis and greens, Anything???
> 
> Or all talk and dead kiddies?



Which party are you voting for next election ?


----------



## sails (2 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 02APR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> What will the Noalition do about it? private members bill, negotiate with the indis and greens, Anything???
> 
> Or all talk and dead kiddies?





SC - I can't believe you are still going on about this.  It's the Government's responsibility - not the opposition's.

That's it.  On to ignore you go...


----------



## drsmith (3 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 03APR2013*

Two more boats carrying 146 passengers.



> 02/04/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 02/04/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (4 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 04APR2013*

Labor's closing down sale knows no bounds. At this rate, it's over 1000 per week.

Three more boats carrying 168 passengers.



> 03/04/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 03/04/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessels




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## So_Cynical (4 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 04APR2013*



drsmith said:


> Labor's closing down sale knows no bounds. At this rate, it's over 1000 per week.
> 
> Three more boats carrying 168 passengers.
> 
> ...




When do you think the noalition will do something about it? take some sort of stand? release a workable policy?

Anything???


----------



## drsmith (4 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 04APR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> Anything???



Labor and it's partners in government have a majority in both houses and you're asking that ????

One thing I do understand is why you are too ashamed to say who you will vote for.


----------



## sails (4 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 04APR2013*



drsmith said:


> Labor and it's partners in government have a majority in both houses and you're asking that ????
> 
> One thing I do understand is why you are too ashamed to say who you will vote for.





looks like delusion is becoming the norm for leftie supporters...


----------



## So_Cynical (4 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 04APR2013*



drsmith said:


> Labor and it's partners in government have a majority in both houses and you're asking that ????






So_Cynical said:


> The Govt holds 71 seats in the house of reps compared to the Noalitions 72 seats.




Hows your maths? are you deliberately avoiding the facts?  there is no comparison between a coalition and an agreement not to bring down a minority Govt.


----------



## drsmith (4 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 04APR2013*

If the government only had 71 seats, it wouldn't be in government.

Look at the tail. It's wagging the dog.


----------



## drsmith (5 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 05APR2013*

Two more boats carrying 105 passengers.



> 04/04/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessels




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (5 April 2013)

A simple comparison between the number of boat arrival announcements over the past two weeks and the same period last year shows how enormous this problem has become,

Two weeks to the end of today,



> 05/04/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 05/04/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 04/04/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessels
> 03/04/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...




Same two week period last year,



> 05/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 03/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 02/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 24/03/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel


----------



## So_Cynical (5 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 05APR2013*



drsmith said:


> Two more boats carrying 105 passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




2 More boats hey, at what point do you think the noalition will do something about it? when do you think we will see the noalition putting it parliamentary majority to work?


----------



## chops_a_must (5 April 2013)

I'm going down to Nightcliff jetty this weekend to turn back the boats.

****ing ****s keep throwing their papers overboard.


----------



## sptrawler (5 April 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> I'm going down to Nightcliff jetty this weekend to turn back the boats.
> 
> ****ing ****s keep throwing their papers overboard.




Pick up their papers and dry them out, I bet they will buy them off you, so they can get home after citizenship.

I'm suprised the government hasn't started charging for citizenship, everyone wants it and we give it away.

Are we stupid, or what.


----------



## drsmith (5 April 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> I'm going down to Nightcliff jetty this weekend to turn back the boats.




I don't see the present situation as the asylum seekers fault. Who can blame them when the government puts such a temptation there in the first place.


----------



## drsmith (5 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 05APR2013*



So_Cynical said:


> 2 More boats hey, at what point do you think the noalition will do something about it?



This has cost our nation $billions and will cost $billions more before the Coalition gets a chance to rectify the problem. That's our money that we pay as taxes, both yours and mine, and that's before the human cost.

As someone who can obviously string more than two words together, how could you be anything other than very concerned about a government that has effectively lost control of our immigration intake to overseas criminals ?


----------



## sails (5 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 05APR2013*



drsmith said:


> This has cost our nation $billions and will cost $billions more before the Coalition gets a chance to rectify the problem. That's our money that we pay as taxes, both yours and mine, and that's before the human cost.
> 
> As someone who can obviously string more than two words together, how could you be anything other than very concerned about a government that has effectively lost control of our immigration intake to overseas criminals ?





Give SC another cracker - seems he can only talk like a parrot now.  Unbelievably stupid when he knows full well the minority government have the numbers in both houses.

Must be desperate in labor territory for supporters to keep coming up with this nonsense.


----------



## sptrawler (6 April 2013)

*Re: Immigration client acquisition report 05APR2013*



sails said:


> Give SC another cracker - seems he can only talk like a parrot now.  Unbelievably stupid when he knows full well the minority government have the numbers in both houses.
> 
> Must be desperate in labor territory for supporters to keep coming up with this nonsense.




Don't be so hard on SC he's classic rusted on true blue Labor, shame the party isn't the same.


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2013)

3 days, 5 more boats, 422 passengers.



> 08/04/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessels
> 08/04/2013  Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 07/04/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessels




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2013)

A boat full has turned up on the mainland, at Geraldton.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-09/boat-carrying-asylum-seekers-pulls-into-geraldton/4618844

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...s/1485-suspected-irregular-entry-vessel-.html


----------



## So_Cynical (9 April 2013)

drsmith said:


> A boat full has turned up on the mainland, at Geraldton.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-09/boat-carrying-asylum-seekers-pulls-into-geraldton/4618844
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/...s/1485-suspected-irregular-entry-vessel-.html




Now that the noalition has actually released a policy perhaps they mite feel brave enough to release a genuine boat arrivals policy..would be interesting to see what they propose to do with the latest arrivals, how they mite use the Parliamentary majority to push forward some sort of workable solution.

More likely they will do nothing


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Now that the noalition has actually released a policy perhaps they mite feel brave enough to release *a genuine boat arrivals policy*..




A genuine boat arrivals policy ??

That's what Labor has. The more the merrier.

My bolds.


----------



## Julia (9 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Now that the noalition has actually released a policy perhaps they mite feel brave enough to release a genuine boat arrivals policy..would be interesting to see what they propose to do with the latest arrivals, how they mite use the Parliamentary majority to push forward some sort of workable solution.
> 
> More likely they will do nothing



So you hope.  I doubt they will do nothing.
With Labor's 'welcome to all comers' policy, they'll be rocking up into Sydney Harbour soon.


----------



## sails (9 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Now that the noalition has actually released a policy perhaps they mite feel brave enough to release a genuine boat arrivals policy..would be interesting to see what they propose to do with the latest arrivals, how they mite use the Parliamentary majority to push forward some sort of workable solution.
> 
> More likely they will do nothing




lol - 72 seats is NOT a majority.


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2013)

sails said:


> lol - 72 seats is NOT a majority.




After the election he'll be wishing 27 seats was a majority.


----------



## Calliope (10 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Now that the noalition has actually released a policy perhaps they mite feel brave enough to release a genuine boat arrivals policy..would be interesting to see what they propose to do with the latest arrivals, how they mite use the Parliamentary majority to push forward some sort of workable solution.




I think you have hit the nail on the head. Labor has now changed it's boat policy to encourage a flood of arrivals in order to leave the incoming Coalition with the massive problem of what to do with them. The illegals will be hitting our coast in landing barges during the next five months. Our Border Protection Service cannot cope with being a protection service and an a welcoming escort service at the same time.


----------



## drsmith (13 April 2013)

8 boats in the past week carrying 625 passengers,



> 11/04/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 10/04/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 09/04/2013   Suspected irregular entry vessel
> 08/04/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessels
> ...




This compares to 3 boats carrying 304 passengers for the same week last year.



> 11/04/2012  Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
> 06/04/2012  Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (13 April 2013)

Another boat sinks,



> AT least five people have drowned, another 53 are missing and 14 have been rescued after spending 24 hours in the open sea following the sinking off Indonesia of their asylum boat bound for Australia.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...sylum-boat-sinks/story-e6frg6nf-1226619461072


----------



## drsmith (13 April 2013)

drsmith said:


> Another boat sinks,



There's conflicting reports as to whether it was a hoax or even more than one boat.

The ABC has a page which shows the number of boat arrivals each year since 1976.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-13/boat-arrivals-in-australia-since-1976/4627200

What it costs,



> As of February 2013 the Department of Immigration has revised this year's asylum budget from $1.1 billion to $2.2 billion.






> Since 2009-2010, or the last two and half years, the Labor government has exceeded its allocated budget for asylum seekers by $5.0 billion and climbing.




http://www.bigpondmoney.com.au/illegal-boat-arrivals-what-it-really-costs


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2013)

drsmith said:


> There's conflicting reports as to whether it was a hoax or even more than one boat.
> 
> The ABC has a page which shows the number of boat arrivals each year since 1976.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-13/boat-arrivals-in-australia-since-1976/4627200




The ABC must be rearranging the deck chairs, in preperation for new bosses. I wonder if the biased reporting will abate somewhat?


----------



## drsmith (16 April 2013)

When someone is acting in Jason Clare's role, Customs takes over announcements of boat arrivals.

This is the case at the moment and was the case over Xmas/new year.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html
http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp

Customs main media release page.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page4281.asp


----------



## So_Cynical (16 April 2013)

No unauthorised boat arrivals today or yesterday.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## noco (16 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> No unauthorised boat arrivals today or yesterday.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




They have probably all sunk before they got to Christmas Island.

That is $120,000 per head we will save.


----------



## drsmith (16 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> No unauthorised boat arrivals today or yesterday.
> 
> http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html




Two days without a boat I suppose would be regarded as an achievement by Labor, but even that's not the case.

Read the post of mine above yours and you'll know where to look.


----------



## sails (17 April 2013)

Still coming:

Boat with 49 asylum seekers located at Cocos (Keeling) Islands 

Labor might be trying to convince us that Abbott will not be able to stop the boats, but the influx suggests the boat people themselves are trying to get here before the gates are shut.


----------



## drsmith (19 April 2013)

13 boats in the past week carrying 927 passangers. This compares to 3 boats carrying 149 passengers for the same period last year.



> 19 April 2013 Customs and Border Protection and the Australian Federal Police intercept vessel
> 19 April 2013 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 18 April 2013 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 18 April 2013 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...






> 18/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 14/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 13/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp
http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## So_Cynical (20 April 2013)

drsmith said:


> 13 boats in the past week carrying 927 passangers. This compares to 3 boats carrying 149 passengers for the same period last year.




I'm curious Doc, when do you think this will become an important enough issue for the noalition to take some action?


----------



## dutchie (20 April 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> I'm curious Doc, when do you think this will become an important enough issue for the noalition to take some action?




Your posts are sooo funny So_Cynical. 

We all know the answer is September 15th, 2013. Come on, get with the program.

Pst.....  when they are actually in power  (unlike this sham of current incompetents).


----------



## sails (20 April 2013)

dutchie said:


> Your posts are sooo funny So_Cynical.
> 
> We all know the answer is September 15th, 2013. Come on, get with the program.
> 
> Pst.....  when they are actually in power  (unlike this sham of current incompetents).





I think SC is wanting the coalition to agree to the malaysian whatever (not a solution, imo).  I'm pretty sure that the coalition have said they will support a full return to the Pacific Solution which has a good history of working.  But then would this government ever fully implement anything that actually worked!

More to the point, Labor is in government with the greens - what are they going to do about it?


----------



## drsmith (20 April 2013)

The fundamental truth that Labor and its partners in government command a majority in both houses remains.

The current problem is largely a product of the Greens parasitic relationship with Labor. That's a relationship Labor is only too happy to maintain for an extra 5-minutes in office because the financial blood is being drawn from the taxpayer.


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2013)

Didn't the greens want to just place the asylum seekers straight into the community?

Maybe Bob Brown can choose one of these for $50 a week. Actually I wonder how many asylum seekers he has taken into his house? Come to that how many is Milne fostering.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16811290/alert-on-criminal-boat-people/


----------



## drsmith (21 April 2013)

Contracts for the immigration department reach $8bn.



> A long list of companies including charter airlines, hire firms and blue-chip transport companies entered into, or held, contracts with the department last year. Across all its operations, the department had contracts worth more than $8 billion last year.
> 
> The largest beneficiary was Serco, which holds $1.8 billion in contracts to run Australia's detention centres.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...er-industry-20130420-2i72s.html#ixzz2R3p6n3lG

EDIT:

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ontracts-for-2012-a-very-important-story.html


----------



## dutchie (21 April 2013)

drsmith said:


> Contracts for the immigration department reach $8bn.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...er-industry-20130420-2i72s.html#ixzz2R3p6n3lG




Plus probably another $6bn costs of government departments involved.

What a waste.  Would have gone a long way in paying for all of Gonski and NDIS.


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2013)

11 boats in the past week carrying 915 passangers. This compares to 1 boat carrying 50 passengers for the same period last year.



> 26/04/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 26/04/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessels
> 25 April 2013 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 25 April 2013 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> ...




* Wasn't listed when I did last week's tally.



> 26/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp
http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (29 April 2013)

Over 3000 arrivals on 41 boats so far this month,

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ts/boat_people_arrivals_now_hit_3000_a_month/


----------



## drsmith (4 May 2013)

9 boats in the past week carrying 950 passengers. Of those 9 boats, 4 carried over 100 passengers each and the 3 that were intercepted yesterday carried a total of 497 passengers.

This compares to 3 boats carrying 251 passengers for the same period last year.



> 03/05/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 03/05/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 03/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 01/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> ...






> 30/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 29/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 27/04/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## So_Cynical (4 May 2013)

drsmith said:


> 9 boats in the past week carrying 950 passengers. Of those 9 boats, 4 carried over 100 passengers each and the 3 that were intercepted yesterday carried a total of 497 passengers.
> 
> This compares to 3 boats carrying 251 passengers for the same period last year.
> 
> ...




I'm curious Doc, when do you think this will become an important enough issue for the noalition to take some action?

Or is there no political advantage to be had in saving Afgan children from a water grave? the opposite of opposing or being seen to be delaying the NDIS?


----------



## sptrawler (4 May 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> I'm curious Doc, when do you think this will become an important enough issue for the noalition to take some action?
> 
> Or is there no political advantage to be had in saving Afgan children from a water grave? the opposite of opposing or being seen to be delaying the NDIS?




I suppose we will see the coalitions action after September, untill then we will just have to wear labors stupidity.

Also as many Afgan children will cram themselves onto boats as possible, while the labor governments open border policy is in place.

Funny how labor come up with NDIS and Gonski, just before they are thrown out of office.
Prior to this it was the MRRT tax to pay for super(fail)
The carbon tax ,to shut down brown coal burning power stations and build a massive solar power station in outback NSW.lol (fail)

Don't you ever get embarrassed trying to talk up the goon show.

All we've got from labor is increased population on welfare, increased debt, increased taxes and a domestic economy in paralysis.
Priceless, just priceless.


----------



## drsmith (5 May 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> I'm curious Doc, when do you think this will become an important enough issue for the noalition to take some action?
> 
> Or is there no political advantage to be had in saving Afgan children from a water grave? the opposite of opposing or being seen to be delaying the NDIS?



When they can, and that'll be when they are in office.

This has been a shocking evolution of policy failure and negligence by both the Rudd and Gillard governments that just gets worse under their watch. 

This level of failure and the Labor attitude towards it is only highlighted by your post above and in particular, your reference to drowning children.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2013)

Not a good start to this week.

5 boats carrying another 383 passengers in the past 3 days.


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2013)

Yes doc, I saw this today in the newspapers.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...entre-capacities/story-fncyva0b-1226636283801

Apparently nearly 900 allready in May, I wonder how long it will be before there will be enough asylum seekers to start a political party.lol


----------



## YMI (8 May 2013)

While I agree that the huge amount of asylum seeker arrivals causes immense costs, I also try to imagine how desperate these people must be to leave everything behind, probably pay everything they have to some criminals who tell them that (in this case) Australia is the land of milk and honey and go aboard a floating wreck which gives them at best a 50% chance to arrive safely just to try to escape whatever it is that threatens their life in their home countries. 

Risking all that without knowing exactly where you are going that’s a kind of Russian roulette. And that reminds me how lucky I am that despite my life isn’t worth more than any other, I am welcome in any country.

I just wonder, why do they say ‘arrivals since Labor came to power’? Wouldn’t it be the same number if Liberal was at power or any other party?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/smugglers-cram-more-women-kids-on-to-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226637230708


----------



## chiff (8 May 2013)

Of course you are right YMI-but politicians use asylum seekers to pursue their  base agenda.


----------



## drsmith (8 May 2013)

YMI said:


> I just wonder, why do they say ‘arrivals since Labor came to power’? Wouldn’t it be the same number if Liberal was at power or any other party?



Labor changed the rules after coming to power in 2007. Up until that time, the Coalition's policies had worked well as shown by your graphic above.


----------



## Calliope (8 May 2013)

John Howard, as usual, gets it right.



> “There’s little doubt there’d be many in this room, whatever their politics, who would testify to the extraordinary internal strains of satisfying the inner urban elites – if I can put it that way – and those with more traditional Labor backgrounds,” Mr Howard said of the challenge for the Labor side of politics. *“But that pales in my view into relative insignificance compared with the impact of that tension on what I regard as the greatest policy failure by a country mile of the present government, and that is on the issue of border protection. That is, in my view, the issue above all issues which encapsulates the internal dilemma and tension for the left-hand side of politics.*



”

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/chriskenny/index.php


----------



## drsmith (9 May 2013)

Some numbers on the financial cost to the budget, and they are staggering.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-5bn-black-hole/story-fn9hm1gu-1226637903975


----------



## drsmith (10 May 2013)

11 boats in the past week carrying 768 passengers. This compares to 4 boats carrying 365 passengers for the same period last year.



> *10/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 10/05/2013  Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 09/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
> 07/05/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...






> 10/05/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 07/05/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 06/05/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessels




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html

* In counting the number of boat arrivals this week, I've assumed this announcement is a duplicate as the details are identical to the earlier 10/05/2013 announcement.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2013)

Apparently asylum in Indonesia isn't what they want, they want Australia and a welfare system, who wouldn't?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/asylum-seekers-in-bali-standoff-20130512-2jg0e.html

Obviously the Gillard carrot is bigger, than the unsafe voyage stick.


----------



## bigdog (14 May 2013)

When will the government set up sentencing for ten years in jail for the crews of these vessels ferrying the illegal immigrants?

Do you think that ten years in jail will reduce the illegal arrivals?


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2013)

bigdog said:


> When will the government set up sentencing for ten years in jail for the crews of these vessels ferrying the illegal immigrants?
> 
> Do you think that ten years in jail will reduce the illegal arrivals?




From what I've heard, they earn more in jail here, than they can earn at home.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2013)

So now we have Labor trying to morph into the Coalition government.
They really have no shame.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...australias-migration-zone-20130516-2joee.html

The slagging they gave Howard when he suggested excising mainland Australia, was beyond the pale.
Now the push the policy through, what a goon show, completely out of control and in a tail spin.lol


----------



## drsmith (26 May 2013)

12 boats carrying 714 passengers over the past fortnight. This compares to 8 boats carrying 692 passengers for the same period last year. 



> 23/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 23/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 21/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 21/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> ...






> 21/05/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessels
> 20/05/2012   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 18/05/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 16/05/2012   Australian Federal Police intercept vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## Ijustnewit (26 May 2013)

Another 3 boats carrying 208 people in the last 24 hrs.

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top..._AsylumseekerboatsinterceptedoffWA_RSS_250513


----------



## noco (26 May 2013)

Ijustnewit said:


> Another 3 boats carrying 208 people in the last 24 hrs.
> 
> http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top..._AsylumseekerboatsinterceptedoffWA_RSS_250513




The Gillard Government syas that is "OLD HAT", we know all about that, lets talk about Sports Gambling, that is more important today.

Another diversion from the real issues, another day in this failed miserable Labor Government.


----------



## drsmith (27 May 2013)

Ijustnewit said:


> Another 3 boats carrying 208 people in the last 24 hrs.
> 
> http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top..._AsylumseekerboatsinterceptedoffWA_RSS_250513



Monday morning sees 4 fresh new announcements of boat arrivals on Jason Clare's site totalling 404 passengers on 6 boats.

Someone in his office needs a coffee. The most recent announcement says boat in the header when it should say boats.


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2013)

It is obviously out of control now.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ected-this-financial-year-20130527-2n6w7.html

This is going to be a huge problem.


----------



## drsmith (27 May 2013)

sptrawler said:


> This is going to be a huge problem.



Labor's tax increases aren't all for the NDIS and Gonski. They are in a significant part the cost inflicted on the electorate for this mess.

Monday evening now sees the tally up to 6 new announcements of boat arrivals on Jason Clare's site totalling 612 passengers on 8 boats. If recent weeks are any indication, we could be looking at 40,000 per year.


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2013)

drsmith said:


> Labor's tax increases aren't all for the NDIS and Gonski. They are in a significant part the cost inflicted on the electorate for this mess.
> 
> Monday evening now sees the tally up to 6 new announcements of boat arrivals on Jason Clare's site totalling 612 passengers on 8 boats. If recent weeks are any indication, we could be looking at 40,000 per year.




This may well be Labors plan for a 'bigger' Australia, hope it doesn't blow up in everyones faces, no pun intended.


----------



## dutchie (28 May 2013)

Labor gets number of illegal immigrants wrong by a factor of 5.

(Another boat - another policy failure)^n

Where n is a number that just gets bigger everyday!

Government has given up any semblance of border protection. Complete disgrace. For this failure alone they should be "cut to the bone" in September.


No idea about budget numbers.

Definite theme here. Labor needs to go back to school (Primary) and redo the maths course at the very least.

Absolutely clueless mob of inept union hacks.


----------



## drsmith (28 May 2013)

Has another boat come to grief ?



> Australian Federal Police have confirmed 28 life jackets have washed up on a beach at Cocos Islands off Western Australia's northern coast.
> 
> They were reported by local residents on Friday.
> 
> One is believed to have contained a small amount of Iranian money.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-27/fears-more-asylum-seekers-may-have-drowned/4714346


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2013)

If she were a Muslim and came in illegally there would be no problem.



> AN Adelaide man is fighting to keep his pregnant Russian girlfriend in Australia but immigration officials have rejected her pregnancy as a reason for a visa extension.
> 
> Single father-of-two Robert Pitt, 38, from Paradise, and Russian national Natasha Zaydenberg, 36, plan to marry after a whirlwind romance that started in March but have been told that "pregnancy is no grounds for a waiver'' on her three-month tourist visa.
> 
> ...








http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-girlfriend-here/story-fnii5yv7-1226652602806


----------



## Julia (29 May 2013)

I don't see why she should be allowed to stay.  She knew the conditions of her visa.  So did he.
Clearly their assumption that her getting pregnant would offer them a way round it has failed.  Tough.


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2013)

She made the mistake of entering Australia legally with a passport and a visa. Certainly she deserves all she gets. She's not the sort of migrant we want.


----------



## Julia (29 May 2013)

Calliope said:


> She made the mistake of entering Australia legally with a passport and a visa.



The terms of the visa being entirely clear.


----------



## Bintang (29 May 2013)

If she leaves the country of her own free will by 10 June she could just go as far as Indonesia and then return on a boat.


----------



## Calliope (29 May 2013)

Bintang said:


> If she leaves the country of her own free will by 10 June she could just go as far as Indonesia and then return on a boat.




Yes, but we don't want immigrants who ignore our immigration rules...do we? Trying to circumvent a visa is worse than having no visa at all. She should happy she will return to Russia with a little Australian bastard.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> I'm curious Doc, when do you think this will become an important enough issue for the noalition to take some action?




Well So_Cynical, apparently the coalition is going to implement, no papers, no processing. 
I bet that will make it harder for the smugglers to get everyone to throw their passports overboard.


----------



## sails (29 May 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well So_Cynical, apparently the coalition is going to implement, no papers, no processing.
> I bet that will make it harder for the smugglers to get everyone to throw their passports overboard.




I thought the coalition were willing to give the government bipartisan support to return to the Pacific Solution.  If so, maybe SC should ask why the government don't take them up on their offer!


----------



## noco (29 May 2013)

Here is the link I mentioned a few days ago that 58 detainees have been proven a threat to the National Security.

How many more criminals have gone through the net we may never know?



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...led-to-the-world/story-fni0ffxg-1226653248230


----------



## Julia (29 May 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well So_Cynical, apparently the coalition is going to implement, no papers, no processing.
> I bet that will make it harder for the smugglers to get everyone to throw their passports overboard.



How interesting.  Have they actually made a statement to that effect?


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2013)

noco said:


> Here is the link I mentioned a few days ago that 58 detainees have been proven a threat to the National Security.
> 
> How many more criminals have gone through the net we may never know?
> 
> ...




Noco, I think we are way past that issue, we are now an easy lifestyle change for minimum risk.
The numbers that are arriving without papers and being given entry, is encouraging an exponential flow.

Unfortunately the Australian taxpayer has to wear the results of a warm feelgood bunch of goons, who don't have to wear the fallout themselves.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2013)

Julia said:


> How interesting.  Have they actually made a statement to that effect?




Yes, I saw the shadow minister for immigration say it today.

I'm sure there will be a lot of huff and puff from the government. 
But it is a hard one for them to say "me too" everyone will say "duh"

The coalition is playing them well to this point.IMO


----------



## Julia (29 May 2013)

Thanks sptrawler. Sounds like the first step in their actual plan to 'stop the boats'.
 I'd like to see/hear it.  Do you have a link or can you tell me where to find it?


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2013)

Julia said:


> Thanks sptrawler. Sounds like the first step in their actual plan to 'stop the boats'.
> I'd like to see/hear it.  Do you have a link or can you tell me where to find it?




Can't find the link and didn't have overiding access of the t.v control at the time, no doubt it will be news tommorrow.


----------



## noco (31 May 2013)

So if Indonesia won't accept the return of the illegal boats it will be interesting to know how Tony Abbott will overcome this problem.

I believe Australia should pull out as a signatory to the UNHCR convention and refuse enrty without ID.

Indonesia is more than happy to send these illegals as they are 100% Muslim and they (Indonesians) are no doubt invloved in the world domination of Islam by infiltration. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/feder...-ambassador-says/story-fnho52jo-1226654686379


----------



## drsmith (31 May 2013)

noco said:


> So if Indonesia won't accept the return of the illegal boats it will be interesting to know how Tony Abbott will overcome this problem.
> 
> I believe Australia should pull out as a signatory to the UNHCR convention and refuse enrty without ID.
> 
> ...




From the above linked article,



> In an address to the University of Canberra National Security Institute, Mr Kesoema acknowledged people smuggling was a major problem for Indonesia.
> 
> He said it was important for Indonesia and Australia to work together to raise awareness among Indonesian people about the dangers of becoming involved in people smuggling.
> 
> "This is not only the problem of the government, this is not only the problem of Australia, this is not only the problem of Indonesia, this is the problem of all," he said.




Indonesia wouldn't be happy with what has happened under our Labor Government. They however would be looking at a broader solution and we can only hope the real diplomacy is going on behind the scenes between the Coalition representatives and the Indonesian Government. In both cases, I suspect comments about turning back the boats are largely for domestic political purposes.


----------



## Julia (31 May 2013)

drsmith said:


> Indonesia wouldn't be happy with what has happened under our Labor Government. They however would be looking at a broader solution and we can only hope the real diplomacy is going on behind the scenes between the Coalition representatives and the Indonesian Government. In both cases, I suspect comments about turning back the boats are largely for domestic political purposes.



Agree.  Might be necessary to remind Indonesia of the substantial aid they receive from Australia also.
Julie Bishop made the point that the boats are from Indonesia, crewed by Indonesians, arranged by Indonesian people smugglers, so it's a little difficult for the Ambassador to decline any responsibility in the matter.

What do others think about the suggestion Australia withdraw from the Refugee Convention as suggested above by noco?


----------



## bigdog (31 May 2013)

Abbot will not be able to turn back the boats - they will jump overboard and will have to be rescued!!

Give 10 years in prison for the crew!

Alternative is to sell Christmas Island to the Indonesians!!!


----------



## bellenuit (1 June 2013)

Julia said:


> Agree.  Might be necessary to remind Indonesia of the substantial aid they receive from Australia also.
> Julie Bishop made the point that the boats are from Indonesia, crewed by Indonesians, arranged by Indonesian people smugglers, so it's a little difficult for the Ambassador to decline any responsibility in the matter.
> 
> What do others think about the suggestion Australia withdraw from the Refugee Convention as suggested above by noco?




Yes absolutely, we should withdraw. I was advocating that from my first post on this subject, but suggested that at the same time we increase our intake from normal channels, to show that we were not abrogating our responsibilities as a well off nation that is expected to do its fair share.  Most Asian countries are not part of it, that is why they say that we must take them even though they are no longer in the same danger once they reach these intermediate countries. And I agree entirely about reminding Indonesia of our aid to them. It seems all our neighbours can pi** all over us and we will take it lying down. No one has respect for countries that do not stand up for themselves.


----------



## Calliope (1 June 2013)

bellenuit said:


> And I agree entirely about reminding Indonesia of our aid to them. It seems all our neighbours can pi** all over us and we will take it lying down. No one has respect for countries that do not stand up for themselves.




The Indonesian Ambassador said these illegals are only passing through Indonesia and if we want to return them we should send them back to their country of origin. For reasons unknown to me we can't seem to do this, unless they come from Sri Lanka.

These people arrive in Indonesia by plane. It should be a simple matter for Indonesia to turn them around at the airport and send them back before they have thrown away their passports and visas. Indonesia, unlike us, has no regard for "refugee conventions, and why should they? *No Muslim ever seeks refuge in a Muslim country*


----------



## Julia (1 June 2013)

bellenuit said:


> No one has respect for countries that do not stand up for themselves.



Quite.  Australia must be a laughing stock these days.


Calliope said:


> The Indonesian Ambassador said these illegals are only passing through Indonesia and if we want to return them we should send them back to their country of origin. For reasons unknown to me we can't seem to do this, unless they come from Sri Lanka.



To be fair, that seems to be entirely supported by Sri Lanka, in contrast to eg Iran which declares they will not take them back.   
What would be the outcome if the Iranians, or anyone else for that matter, were flown straight back to their country of origin?  Presumably commercial airlines wouldn't be too keen on carrying them under the circumstances.  Could Australia just charter an aircraft, load them on, let them off at the other end?
I suspect nothing would be as simple as that.



> These people arrive in Indonesia by plane. It should be a simple matter for Indonesia to turn them around at the airport and send them back before they have thrown away their passports and visas. Indonesia, unlike us, has no regard for "refugee conventions, and why should they? *No Muslim ever seeks refuge in a Muslim country*



Yes, that seems reasonable except I suppose they have the appropriate visa to enter Indonesia 'on holiday' or something and therefore there would be no valid reason for Indonesia to turn them around?

I don't know.


----------



## Calliope (1 June 2013)

They haven't sought asylum in Indonesia and if they overstay their visas they can be sent back, as we do to the overstayers. And Indonesia has an advantage over us...they are not bound by any "conventions". Neither is Malaysia. Leaving the job to people smugglers saves them a lot of trouble. They arrest a people smuggler every now and then. They are probably not paying enough corruption money to the right people, as they also arrest drug smugglers who haven't paid their dues 

These illegals are people that no country in its right mind would want, especially fellow Islamic countries. They are trouble for any host country.

The Gillard government now couldn't care less about them...just another ticking time bomb for Abbott!


----------



## Julia (1 June 2013)

OK, but I'm interested in how you see the mechanics of actually flying people back to their original countries?


----------



## Calliope (1 June 2013)

Julia said:


> OK, but I'm interested in how you see the mechanics of actually flying people back to their original countries?




How I see the mechanics? By the next available aircraft service to their home country. Seeing they have passports and visas they would have no trouble getting back in. However like everyone else I was just making a suggestion. I know very well it's not going to happen so the mechanics are irrelevant.


----------



## Bintang (1 June 2013)

Calliope said:


> They haven't sought asylum in Indonesia and if they overstay their visas they can be sent back, as we do to the overstayers. And Indonesia has an advantage over us...they are not bound by any "conventions".




Don't expect any co-operation from Indonesia. The majority in charge are racist and xenophobic. This is a country where foreigners cannot buy a house for themselves even if they are married to an Indonesian. As well as having no property rights they can never have actual permanent residence let alone citizenship - even when they are married to an Indonesian.

Meanwhile, Indonesians come to Australia and buy up our real estate helping to make it unaffordable  for Australians.  If they marry an Australian they can expect to eventually be able to live permanently in Australia and become  Australian citizens - if they want to.

Australia is just piss weak.


----------



## noco (1 June 2013)

bigdog said:


> Abbot will not be able to turn back the boats - they will jump overboard and will have to be rescued!!
> 
> Give 10 years in prison for the crew!
> 
> Alternative is to sell Christmas Island to the Indonesians!!!




20 years would be a better deterrent for the crew after all Indonesia gave Chapelle Corby 20 yeras for smuggling in 2 kg of weed.

20 years would give them something to think about before leaving Indonesia.


----------



## Bintang (1 June 2013)

noco said:


> 20 years would be a better deterrent for the crew after all Indonesia gave Chapelle Corby 20 yeras for smuggling in 2 kg of weed.
> 
> 20 years would give them something to think about before leaving Indonesia.




Except that in an australian gaol they would probably have a better quality of life than living free in their own country and btw
Chapelle Corby is in a hell-hole for 20 years.


----------



## sptrawler (1 June 2013)

Julia said:


> Agree.  Might be necessary to remind Indonesia of the substantial aid they receive from Australia also.
> Julie Bishop made the point that the boats are from Indonesia, crewed by Indonesians, arranged by Indonesian people smugglers, so it's a little difficult for the Ambassador to decline any responsibility in the matter.
> 
> What do others think about the suggestion Australia withdraw from the Refugee Convention as suggested above by noco?




Also lets not forget, Indonesia is charging the asylum seekers, for a transit visa. 
Therefore they are complicit in the process and the question could be asked "why aren't they supplying asylum". 
If they aren't offering asylum they must be aiding and abetting the smuggling process. IMO


----------



## Bintang (1 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Also lets not forget, Indonesia is charging the asylum seekers, for a transit visa.
> Therefore they are complicit in the process and the question could be asked "why aren't they supplying asylum".
> If they aren't offering asylum they must be aiding and abetting the smuggling process. IMO




Because they are racist and xenophobic. Besides that who wants asylum in a country that doesn't have a social safety ne even for its own citizens and sees all foreigners as something to exploit. Of course they will charge for transit visas but they will never give anything in return.


----------



## drsmith (1 June 2013)

12 boats carrying 934 passengers over the past week. This compares to 2 boats carrying 128 passengers for the same period last year. 



> 31/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 31/05/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 30/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 28/05/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> ...






> 30/05/2012  Australian Federal Police intercept vessel
> 28/05/2012   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## IFocus (1 June 2013)

Bintang said:


> Don't expect any co-operation from Indonesia. The majority in charge are racist and xenophobic. This is a country where foreigners cannot buy a house for themselves even if they are married to an Indonesian. As well as having no property rights they can never have actual permanent residence let alone citizenship - even when they are married to an Indonesian.
> 
> Meanwhile, Indonesians come to Australia and buy up our real estate helping to make it unaffordable  for Australians.  If they marry an Australian they can expect to eventually be able to live permanently in Australia and become  Australian citizens - if they want to.
> 
> Australia is just piss weak.




Is there a bitter story of yours some where there Bintang Indonesia is still the rule of man over law but it is changing all be it slowly.


----------



## Bintang (1 June 2013)

IFocus said:


> Is there a bitter story of yours some where there Bintang Indonesia is still the rule of man over law but it is changing all be it slowly.




Experience yes. Bitter story no. What is bitter though is that Australia is being taken for a ride by both the asylum seekers and those that help them get across our borders.


----------



## JTLP (2 June 2013)

The problem with countries like Indonesia is that when the asylum seekers fly in and glide through customs; such is the poverty of the workers that they'll gladly take a few extra coins to let people slip through. As McLovin pointed out - it would be glaringly obvious that these people are on one way tickets and customs would know this; but eh...what can you do?

There seems to be a couple of tools at Australia's disposable; but will they help?
- No papers / no processing
- Withdraw from the UNHCR (The UN is all huffery anyway)
- TPV

You'll never be able to tow back boats. They'd sink them and then the Navy would spend more resources picking people out of the water. I think Rudd/Gillard have really opened the floodgates and it will be too much to shut them. It's open knowledge that the islands and detention centres can no longer hold the numbers.


----------



## Calliope (2 June 2013)

JTLP said:


> You'll never be able to tow back boats. They'd sink them and then the Navy would spend more resources picking people out of the water. I think Rudd/Gillard have really opened the floodgates and it will be too much to shut them. It's open knowledge that the islands and detention centres can no longer hold the numbers.




There is no solution. and since the boat arrivals have multiplied, she has given up any pretense of finding one. Her old cry of Abbott Abbott Abbott and the Malaysia Solution have faded. Her strategy now is to add this cancerous mess to the whole heap of other ****, for Abbott to clean up. 

She is well aware that this huge festering dunghill is impossible to clean up in three years and has has hopes of making a comeback. She is delusional of course.


----------



## drsmith (2 June 2013)

JTLP said:


> The problem with countries like Indonesia is that when the asylum seekers fly in and glide through customs; such is the poverty of the workers that they'll gladly take a few extra coins to let people slip through.



Fly throughs came up in the discussion on Insiders today. Listen from about 52 minutes. According to David Marr, this is happening through Malaysia as well.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3772660.htm

That puts Labor's Malaysia solution into an interesting context.


----------



## Bintang (2 June 2013)

JTLP said:


> The problem with countries like Indonesia is that when the asylum seekers fly in and glide through customs; such is the poverty of the workers that they'll gladly take a FEW EXTRA COINS to let people slip through.




LOL - its more than a few extra coins. It is BIG business and most likely aided and abetted by high level corruption.
That's how Indonesia works and Australia is being taken for a ride.

I don't know the solution any better than anyone else except that withdrawing from the UNHCR would be a good first step.
After that apply extreme toughness. It will involve tragedy and collateral damage just like in any war but the fact is this is like a war  because it is an invasion of our borders.
So long as Australia remains piss weak about this our charity will be exploited and we will become poorer as a nation.


----------



## Calliope (2 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> Fly throughs came up in the discussion on Insiders today. Listen from about 52 minutes. According to David Marr, this is happening through Malaysia as well.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3772660.htm
> 
> That puts Labor's Malaysia solution into an interesting context.




David Marr made two interesting comments;

The smuggling industry is too firmly entrenched for Abbott to stop it, and

If Malaysia and Indonesia could be persuaded to plug the flow through Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta airports it would go a long way to solving the issue.  

Not of course, that Marr sees any problem with boat people arriving illegally.

If they weren't issued transit visas they would have to go home.


----------



## Bintang (2 June 2013)

Calliope said:


> If Malaysia and Indonesia could be persuaded ......




PERSUADED - what a joke. People are so naive about Indonesia and Malaysia. Take for example the Australian media's attempt to 'persuade' Indonesia to go easy on Chapelle Corby. What happened - she got 20 years gaol. You see the only thing that persuades them about anything is money. Forget about trying to show them the moral high ground.They will just laugh behind your back. There are now too many people making too much money by allowing the asylum seekers to pass through. And furthermore it is a 'growth business'.

I believe the only thing that could work is EXTREME toughness. But Australia is so hostage to bleeding heart liberals on both sides of politics that we do not have any capacity to show extreme toughness.

It's a pity we cannot outsource this problem to the Israelis.


----------



## Calliope (2 June 2013)

Bintang said:


> PERSUADED - what a joke. People are so naive about Indonesia and Malaysia. Take for example the Australian media's attempt to 'persuade' Indonesia to go easy on Chapelle Corby. What happened - she got 20 years gaol. You see the only thing that persuades them about anything is money. Forget about trying to show them the moral high ground.They will just laugh behind your back. There are now too many people making too much money by allowing the asylum seekers to pass through. And furthermore it is a 'growth business'.




I think you've hit on the solution. Follow the money. Each illegal costs us millions to resettle in Australia. Surely we could broker an undercover deal with the Indonesian Minister for Graft and Corruption ( or the Indonesian Godfather) that whatever the people smugglers pay into the system for each illegal we will pay them double, treble, whatever is necessary to refuse them transit visas. It has to be enough to square off everyone in the chain from the top brass to the airport clerks.


----------



## Bintang (2 June 2013)

Calliope said:


> I think you've hit on the solution. Follow the money. Each illegal costs us millions to resettle in Australia. Surely we could broker an undercover deal with the Indonesian Minister for Graft and Corruption ( or the Indonesian Godfather) that whatever the people smugglers pay into the system for each illegal we will pay them double, treble, whatever is necessary to refuse them transit visas. It has to be enough to square off everyone in the chain from the top brass to the airport clerks.




Calliope, you are very perceptive. Yes, this is what I was hinting at. If you want proof that it will work just consider Indonesia's success in countering its own Jihadist radical terrorist groups. Behind the scenes the Indonesian police have been paid lots of money to get the job done. And many informers have been paid along the way as well. You could say money trumps religion. I don't know what the Koran says about this but the Bible says "you cannot serve God and mammon". Indonesian police definitely prefer the mammon.


----------



## drsmith (2 June 2013)

Calliope said:


> David Marr made two interesting comments;
> 
> The smuggling industry is too firmly entrenched for Abbott to stop it, and
> 
> ...



David Marr's admission that there's a problem is another example that shows how bad the situation has become. 

Perhaps even he wasn't expecting the numbers to reach these proportions.



Bintang said:


> Calliope, you are very perceptive. Yes, this is what I was hinting at.




Isn't that what the foreign aid budget is for ?


----------



## drsmith (3 June 2013)

Michael Smith has the tally for May on his site.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/06/illegal-boat-arrivals-for-the-month-of-may-2013.html

3399 in total. At that rate we'll get over 40,000 arrivals per year. This is well in excess of what the government provides for in it's budget.

For the first 3 days of June so far, there's another three boat arrival announcements on Jason Clare's site totalling 301 passengers.


----------



## IFocus (3 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> Michael Smith has the tally for May on his site.
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/06/illegal-boat-arrivals-for-the-month-of-may-2013.html
> 
> ...





Once we pull out of Afghanistan and it blows up then you will real numbers arriving this currently is just a small trickle IMHO


----------



## drsmith (3 June 2013)

IFocus said:


> Once we pull out of Afghanistan and it blows up then you will real numbers arriving this currently is just a small trickle IMHO



The harsh reality is that under Labor, the numbers would just continue to grow until their was rioting in the streets. 

History will judge their abandonment of border protection harshly, as will the electorate.


----------



## drsmith (3 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> For the first 3 days of June so far, there's another three boat arrival announcements on Jason Clare's site totalling 301 passengers.



I have to issue a correction.

One of those announcements was for vessels. It's 4 for 387 passengers.


----------



## Calliope (6 June 2013)

No one will admit that it was a mistake to bring black Africans from a war-torn environment to this country. They are still continuing their tribal warfare, but now it is against white Australians. The police in their "wisdom" are going to discuss the thuggery with  the "elders".


----------



## drsmith (6 June 2013)

All indications are that it's chaos.



> Asylum seekers involved in violent attacks while in immigration detention are being released into the community, including one man who assaulted staff and was involved in more than 250 incidents.
> 
> The violent detainees are released before security checks into their background are completed, according to an insider with intimate knowledge of the detention system.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-the-streets-says-insider-20130606-2ns1w.html


----------



## bigdog (6 June 2013)

I can believe what Pickering has reported today
http://pickeringpost.com/article/som...the-wheel/1459

*SOMEONE'S ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL*
Larry Pickering





As illegal immigration becomes the major election issue, a culture of indifference by authorities as to who enters our borders has slowly emerged. Here’s just one reason why... explained by one of many exasperated AFP whistle-blowers.

“Giving them phones was an expensive way to discover who they are but if they arrived by boat without any form of ID it was really the only way we had”, according to the AFP officer. “But now it’s all gone wrong!”

Millions of dollars spent on supplying phones and paying for calls (up to $20,000 a quarter for a single male detainee) has allowed ASIO to track their contacts via conversations and texts back to family members.

“ ...they got smart, they used coded messages, but by using interpreters we could mostly figure out what they were saying... well, that’s when we could trust the interpreters.

“Some of them spent 8 hours every day on the phone and we needed a full-time person plus an interpreter for each detainee to try to unscramble it all”, said the officer who spent 18 months at a major detention centre.

He asked that I not name the centre.

There was frustration and hopelessness in his demeanour as he explained the process in past tense:

“Sometimes we knew they were up to no good but if we knocked them back they just used the appeals process to have our security rulings overturned.

"It was almost impossible to legally prove intent when they talked in coded stuff and in different dialects. Now it’s just one big mess. Everyone’s given up.

"These guys are too smart and we have made it easier for them.”

Was frustration the reason he asked for a transfer?
“Yeah, it’s a crazy system. These guys threw any ID they had overboard knowing it would take us months, even years, to discover who they were and in the meantime they were allowed to live in our suburbs on bridging visas with 89% of the Newstart allowance and all sorts of other ****.

“The worst part is when we know there’s something dodgy about a detainee but we can’t legally prove it. We have to ignore it or we get tied up with one guy in an appeals tribunal instead of rushing to try to process the thousands of waiting arrivals before they get released on these damned bridging visas.

“It’s reached a stage now that, unless you were Osama bin Laden’s Imam, they will wave you through. There’s just too many of them.”

It appears from many other sources of information, the processing of illegal immigrants has become nigh impossible and those responsible for border control have all but given up.

It’s another classic case of throwing voluminous amounts money at a problem and simply walking away from it.

Deceiving our security protocols has become an Islamic art form.

Cell phones might have been a bright idea initially but with tens of thousands used for free calls to each other, and back to their countries of origin, they now know more about us than we do about them.

Immigration has built Australia, we need it and welcome it but we must know who our immigrants are.

The moneyed Islamists have discovered a way to reside here, unidentified, while destitute, legitimate refugees sit rotting and starving in cages in Malaysia.

You can forget Labor’s museum of other disasters, unless this one is fixed soon we better start looking for another island.


----------



## drsmith (6 June 2013)

This government isn't asleep at the wheel, it's dead at the wheel.


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2013)

I heard today, the government is going to dump 60 refugees into Collie W.A. 
I hope that works well for them, it certainly will be an litmus test for the government. 

It is a safe labor seat, but isn't a place for the faint hearted.


----------



## drsmith (8 June 2013)

11 boats carrying 816 passengers over the past week. This compares to 5 boats carrying 313 passengers for the same period last year.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html

2 boats on 07/06/2013


----------



## drsmith (8 June 2013)

It looks like another boat has sunk.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...sylum-boat-sinks/story-fni0xqrb-1226660484653

Paul Kelly's views,



> Gillard's tragedy is that she is much misunderstood on border protection. As PM, she tried to impose a tougher policy than anything from Howard.
> 
> This was the Malaysian people swap. It was vetoed by the High Court and Abbott then vetoed Gillard's proposed laws to make the deal constitutional.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ne-sinking-labor/story-e6frg74x-1226659594530


----------



## sptrawler (8 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> I heard today, the government is going to dump 60 refugees into Collie W.A.
> I hope that works well for them, it certainly will be an litmus test for the government.
> 
> It is a safe labor seat, but isn't a place for the faint hearted.




If you want to follow the progress of this story here is a link to the local paper.

http://www.colliemail.com.au/


----------



## drsmith (9 June 2013)

The initial part of the interview with Bob Carr is telling in how it highlights Labor's failure.

The best he can offer though is to argue that the Coalition can't fix it.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...m-seeker-sinking/story-e6frg6nf-1226660778375


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> The initial part of the interview with Bob Carr is telling in how it highlights Labor's failure.
> 
> The best he can offer though is to argue that the Coalition can't fix it.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...m-seeker-sinking/story-e6frg6nf-1226660778375




The question Carr should be asked is how do they intend to hold the numbers at current levels. When in reality the numbers are increasing exponentially.


----------



## drsmith (9 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> The question Carr should be asked is how do they intend to hold the numbers at current levels. When in reality the numbers are increasing exponentially.



What struck me was the admission that those coming now are economic refugees.


----------



## drsmith (9 June 2013)

There may be a second boat missing at sea,



> Mr Clare also revealed Australian Federal Police (AFP) had received a call for assistance from a second boat last night, but HMAS Warramunga has been unable to locate the vessel.
> 
> The suspected asylum seeker boat reported engine troubles about 110 nautical miles north of Christmas Island last night and HMAS Warramunga was sent to its location.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-...vivors-of-capsized-asylum-seeker-boat/4742300


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> What struck me was the admission that those coming now are economic refugees.




I think that became bluntly obvious when Indonesia started charging them for a transit visa. It probably covered the cost of finding them boats.IMO
The fact the Labor Government thought Australians would just suck up any garbage they sprouted, was dumb arrogance.
This government has just underlined what people dislike about politicians, unfortunatelly there is such a concentration of them in Labor. Less than 100 days to go.yeh


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2013)

bigdog said:


> I can believe what Pickering has reported today
> http://pickeringpost.com/article/som...the-wheel/1459
> 
> *SOMEONE'S ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL*
> Larry Pickering



This story, also from Larry Pickering's site is the detailed account of one asylum seeker's journey from Pakistan through SE Asia to Australia. It shows how organised the people smuggling trade has become.

http://pickeringpost.com/article/one-mans-boat-trip-to-oz/1483


----------



## Julia (10 June 2013)

Given the sophisticated organisation described above, it's hard to believe a Coalition government will just be able to direct the Navy to turn a boat around and it will obligingly return without protest to Indonesia.

More likely they will scuttle the boat, creating a humanitarian dilemma.

Does anyone believe the Coalition would actually go as far as letting the boat sink and the people drown?

Unless they have some thus far unknown way of persuading Indonesia to co-operate, this might seem the only way to indeed 'stop the boats'.


----------



## bellenuit (10 June 2013)

Julia said:


> Given the sophisticated organisation described above, it's hard to believe a Coalition government will just be able to direct the Navy to turn a boat around and it will obligingly return without protest to Indonesia.
> 
> More likely they will scuttle the boat, creating a humanitarian dilemma.
> 
> ...




It will be difficult to do it with Indonesian boats. But they may be able to tow Sri Lankan boats to Sri Lanka's territorial waters (with the people on board the navy ship) and pass the boat and people over to Sri Lankan authorities. I believe Sri Lanka has already intercepted boats heading to Australia and forced them to return. Since they have declared the war over and Tamils no longer being persecuted, not accepting their own people back might be seen as a loss of face. If Sri Lanka were to say no and declare them as refugees, then what are they fleeing from? If not refugees, then what right have they to try to go to Australia without papers? 

With Indonesian boats, I think they will have to just be forceful and make Australian aid dependent on Indonesia cooperating. 

I don't think anything is going to be done without much difficulty. But at the end of the day what are our choices. Be dictated to by people smugglers, putting our whole security in jeopardy, or make a stand. Perhaps they could take women and children on board and leave the men. Then let the men bear the consequences of scuttling their own boat.

One thing to consider is that no matter how difficult the decisions are now, they will be a lot more difficult when illegal migrants become a significant minority in the country.


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2013)

It's largely going to come down to behind-closed-doors diplomacy with Indonesia in my view.

A consequence of Labor's policy outcome is that our position is obviously weakened and it's with a country who in the past we have had difficult relations with.


----------



## sptrawler (10 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> It's largely going to come down to behind-closed-doors diplomacy with Indonesia in my view.
> 
> A consequence of Labor's policy outcome is that our position is obviously weakened and it's with a country who in the past we have had difficult relations with.




It would be easy, asylum seekers are costing us $5b per year. Abbott says to Indonesia, we will give you $1b per year if you help stop the boats.
Problem solved.


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2013)

Another day of Labor in government, a new depth of policy failure.

Now the dead are being left for shark food.



> AUSTRALIAN authorities are too busy with "high-priority" operations to immediately recover the floating bodies of asylum-seekers whose boat sank near Christmas Island.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...sman-ian-rintoul/story-fn9hm1gu-1226661186739


----------



## pixel (10 June 2013)

Questions that the Australian government/s of all persuasions should put to Indonesia:

If your stated religion Islam is a religion of Peace, how come Muslims keep killing each other and displace so many people from their countries?
If Islam is a religion of compassion, how come Indonesia and Malaysia, the countries with the largest Islamic population, are not willing to accept their brethren in Faith and even refuse to sign the pertinent UN Resolution?
If Islam is a religion of submission under Allah's will, how come that when Muslims, claiming to be refugees, get themselves into trouble off the coast of Indonesia, it's suddenly no longer Allah's will, but the responsibility of a Western country (governed by Christians and Infidels) to pull them out of the water?
Maybe Australia should NOT have signed the UN resolutions before our Muslim neighbours did.


----------



## pixel (10 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> Another day of Labor in government, a new depth of policy failure.
> 
> Now the dead are being left for shark food.




Why is it our policy failure when criminals (and I'm only referring to the people smugglers!) don't care about maritime safety? And with yet another boatload in trouble, who is more important: the living or the dead?


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2013)

pixel said:


> Why is it our policy failure when criminals (and I'm only referring to the people smugglers!) don't care about maritime safety? And with yet another boatload in trouble, who is more important: the living or the dead?



Fair questions, but they relate to the consequences, not the cause.


----------



## sptrawler (10 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> Fair questions, but they relate to the consequences, not the cause.




The cause, a dumb government propped up by dumber independents, supporting an ideologically stupid green policy.IMO


----------



## pixel (10 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> Fair questions, but they relate to the consequences, not the cause.




The main *cause* is disunity among Muslim leaders, who allow a radical minority to pervert Islam and turn on each other. External intervention, e.g. in Iraq and Afghanistan, has made matters worse by degrees; the Bush-Blair-Howard policy of "Shock and Awe" has sparked a massive recruitment drive towards Islamo-Fascism. The refugee camps full of displaced Muslims are a consequence of those two causes.


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2013)

The cause to which I'm referring is the Rudd and Gillard government's border protection policies.

Even Bob Carr has admitted we are attracting economic refugees.


----------



## sptrawler (10 June 2013)

pixel said:


> The main *cause* is disunity among Muslim leaders, who allow a radical minority to pervert Islam and turn on each other. External intervention, e.g. in Iraq and Afghanistan, has made matters worse by degrees; the Bush-Blair-Howard policy of "Shock and Awe" has sparked a massive recruitment drive towards Islamo-Fascism. The refugee camps full of displaced Muslims are a consequence of those two causes.




Well why don't the displaced just move to a muslim based country like Indonesia?
Why try to relocate to christian based countries?


----------



## Bintang (10 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well why don't the displaced just move to a muslim based country like Indonesia?
> Why try to relocate to christian based countries?




Because:
1) Indonesia will not take them.
2) There is no 'dole' or other handouts for them in Indonesia (the country doesn't even have a social safety net for its own poor. They just rot on the streets when the have no money)
3) It is very difficult even for a foreigner who is married to an Indonesian to be able to live in the country. No such thing as permanent residence. Constant renewal of visas, residence permits, identy cards etc at great expense.
4) Indonesia is racist and xenophobic.

Anyone who is familiar with what I am talking about also knows that allowing asylum seekers to pass through Indonesia is lucrative business for 'officials'. They are not going to give it up easily - to much money involved now and its a growth business.


----------



## Julia (10 June 2013)

pixel said:


> Why is it our policy failure when criminals (and I'm only referring to the people smugglers!) don't care about maritime safety? And with yet another boatload in trouble, who is more important: the living or the dead?






drsmith said:


> Fair questions, but they relate to the consequences, not the cause.



Perhaps, but the immediate question is whether the bodies should be recovered.  Personally, I support the decision not to pursue retrieving them.
That would at least be a small indication of a more hardline policy by Australia.


----------



## noco (10 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well why don't the displaced just move to a muslim based country like Indonesia?
> Why try to relocate to christian based countries?




This is a world wide Islamic plot, which includes Indonesia, to infiltrate the Western World to gain world domination and Indonesia is assisting and going hell for leather before the 14th September election.

It has happened in Eorope, Cananda and the USA and it is now rife here in Auistralia.


----------



## Bintang (10 June 2013)

noco said:


> This is a world wide Islamic plot, which includes Indonesia, to infiltrate the Western World to gain world domination and Indonesia is assisting and going hell for leather before the 14th September election.
> 
> It has happened in Eorope, Cananda and the USA and it is now rife here in Auistralia.




In Indonesia there is only a tiny group of radicals who might pursue that cause. The rest have a very different but simple pursuit - it is called money.


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2013)

Julia said:


> Perhaps, but the immediate question is whether the bodies should be recovered.  Personally, I support the decision not to pursue retrieving them.
> That would at least be a small indication of a more hardline policy by Australia.



In the context of the current situation, it's obviously more appropriate to prioritise the living over the dead, but that's an issue of resource allocation. 

It says nothing about Australia's line on this, hard or otherwise


----------



## sptrawler (10 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> In the context of the current situation, it's obviously more appropriate to prioritise the living over the dead, but that's an issue of resource allocation.
> 
> It says nothing about Australia's line on this, hard or otherwise




Agree it sounds like our resources are stretched to the max, that might be due to a massive inrush before September.
If the Labor Government wasn't so inwardly focused, they would call an election and bring this chaos to an end.

Who do they think they are representing when 70% of the population don't want them, one wonders the motivation.


----------



## pixel (11 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Agree it sounds like our resources are stretched to the max, that might be due to a massive inrush before September.
> If the Labor Government wasn't so inwardly focused, they would call an election and bring this chaos to an end.
> 
> Who do they think they are representing when 70% of the population don't want them, one wonders the motivation.




I think it's been more the Green tail wagging the red dog.
But if anyone believes a return to the 1950's will serve Australia much better - I don't either.
Pollies being pollies, I reckon we'll find that a government that couldn't really do much because of a hung parliament was doing a lot less damage than the next one that can do anything it wants because it gets away with it.


----------



## Calliope (11 June 2013)

pixel said:


> I think it's been more the Green tail wagging the red dog.
> But if anyone believes a return to the 1950's will serve Australia much better - I don't either.
> Pollies being pollies, I reckon we'll find that a government that couldn't really do much because of a hung parliament was doing a lot less damage than the next one that can do anything it wants because it gets away with it.




The present parliament has never been a "hung parliament". For the last three years Labor/Greens have commanded a majority in both houses. The Greens, who control the senate, will always be more supportive to Labor than to the Coalition.

The Greens have never wavered in their support of Labor laxity in allowing illegal Muslim immigrants to flood the country.


----------



## chops_a_must (11 June 2013)

Julia said:


> Perhaps, but the immediate question is whether the bodies should be recovered.  Personally, I support the decision not to pursue retrieving them.
> That would at least be a small indication of a more hardline policy by Australia.




I suspect that there is a bit of subtext here.

A lot of the navy boys here in Darwin are dealing with significant PTSD issues from body retrieval.

After just a couple of hours in the water, it is likely that arms, legs, heads and the body will fall part and pull of when being recovered.

Apologies to anyone who has lost someone to drowning.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 June 2013)

chops_a_must said:


> I suspect that there is a bit of subtext here.
> 
> A lot of the navy boys here in Darwin are dealing with significant PTSD issues from body retrieval.
> 
> ...




That's what I was thinking also chops.
A truly gruesome task -and for what?


----------



## Aussiejeff (11 June 2013)

Consider this....

Why not excise Christmas Island from Australian control and gift it to our Indonesian buddies? Just compensate the existing legal inhabitants (move to mainland if they want to + new housing). Huge reduction in on-going costs for us.

plus

Indonesia get some nice piles of bird poo to mine + a very close strategic outpost to help control the people smugglers currently leaving their shores in droves to go to Aussie Christmas Island. If the island is Indonesian however, how many are then going to head direct for Oz mainland to bypass it? Very, very few I believe.  

Win, win all round? I'm not the only one with a favorable view to this idea 

http://oursay.org/hangout-with-the-...se-to-indonesia-and-a-long-way-from-australia


----------



## sptrawler (11 June 2013)

Aussiejeff said:


> Consider this....
> 
> Why not excise Christmas Island from Australian control and gift it to our Indonesian buddies? Just compensate the existing legal inhabitants (move to mainland if they want to + new housing). Huge reduction in on-going costs for us.
> 
> ...




I'm pretty sure Howard did this in early 2001.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2002/s578166.htm

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/54103

It isn't a new idea, from memory I think it was overturned.


----------



## Julia (11 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> In the context of the current situation, it's obviously more appropriate to prioritise the living over the dead, but that's an issue of resource allocation.



Of course it is.  But you still have various members of the Greens plus refugee advocates insisting that retrieving bodies should be the first priority.


----------



## Country Lad (11 June 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> A truly gruesome task -and for what?




For no real reason I can see.  Subjecting our people to the trauma of picking dead bodies or body parts out of the ocean which will never be identified because they have thrown or given away their identification, seems a little pointless to me.  Just consider them buried at sea after a tragic voyage.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Aussiejeff (11 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> I'm pretty sure Howard did this in early 2001.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2002/s578166.htm
> 
> ...




...but that was only excising Christmas Island and others as far as the migration zone & immigration/refugee policy was concerned. It did not involve any notion of handing over total sovereignty of the place. 

I'm talking about _a total sovereign handover_. Now, could you imagine John Howard would have given Christmas Island away for nix? Nah....



> The Island was occupied by Japanese forces from March 1942 until the end of the Second World War and in 1946 became a dependency of Singapore. By agreement with the United Kingdom_ sovereignty was transferred to the Commonwealth of Australia on 1 October 1958 under the Christmas Island Act 1958_. This day is still celebrated as Territory Day.



http://www.regional.gov.au/territories/christmas/enviro_herritage.aspx

So, its not as if it hasn't happened before. Most of the problem now is because Indonesia is happy to let Australia carry the can (financially and morally) for _their_ corruption, pathetic naval patrolling and weak, ineffective leadership in dealing with the whole refugee crisis on their doorstep. Why should we accept their mis-handling without question? Let them have the place, lock stock and barrel.


----------



## Country Lad (11 June 2013)

I doubt that by far the majority of Australians have any idea where Christmas Island is located.  I suspect that most will think it is close to Australia.

It is no wonder the boats head there.  It is about 380 km from the Indonesian coast which is only about 20% of the distance to the Australian mainland which is a further 1,600 km away.  So, without Christmas Island, the boats would need to travel about 2,000 km to the WA coast.  That on its own would likely be a little off putting.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## nioka (11 June 2013)

Aussiejeff said:


> Consider this....
> 
> Why not excise Christmas Island from Australian control and gift it to our Indonesian buddies? Just compensate the existing legal inhabitants (move to mainland if they want to + new housing). Huge reduction in on-going costs




Maybe there is more to it than that. Think oil and gas. Think continental shelf. Think marine resource. I guess that is why we still have it.


----------



## Bintang (11 June 2013)

I believe the solution is fairly simple:
1) Identify the Indonesian officials who are making the most money out of this scam.
2) Figure out how much money they are making currently.
3) Offer to pay them a bit more than what they are making now if they will stop allowing the asylum seekers to transit through Indonesia.

It sounds unpalatable but it will be far, far cheaper for Australian tax payers.

What will definitely not work is any kind of attempt to pressure Indonesia with 'moral arguments' or 'punishment' such as cutting off foreign aid. These type of approaches simply cause 'loss of face' and guarantee that Indonesia will not co-operate. In fact the Indonesians will just smile and then go about making things worse for us.


----------



## bigdog (11 June 2013)

What about stopping our welfare payments to Indonesia!

Also, we could sell Christmas Island to Indonesia!!

Abbot can't turn the boats around; they will simply jump overboard to be rescued!


----------



## drsmith (11 June 2013)

Labor's latest excuse.

As per usual, it's not their fault. 

It's never Labor's fault. 



> CRAIG EMERSON: Now, what happened at around the time of the change of government, is that people smugglers learned that of all those people on temporary protection visas, a huge proportion of them were allowed to stay in Australia after being in mandatory detention for a very long period. They then told - they then told those who wanted to come by boat, "Don't worry about it. You will end up being able to stay in Australia because these TPVs are just a deterrent for a period of time but if you are patient enough you will be able to stay".




http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3767548.htm

With regard to disposing Xmas Island to Indonesia (in whatever form), we would be better exiting the UN refugee convention. At least that way we get to keep the airstrip.


----------



## Julia (11 June 2013)

Bintang said:


> I believe the solution is fairly simple:
> 1) Identify the Indonesian officials who are making the most money out of this scam.
> 2) Figure out how much money they are making currently.
> 3) Offer to pay them a bit more than what they are making now if they will stop allowing the asylum seekers to transit through Indonesia.
> ...



Isn't this like any other form of what is essentially blackmail?  What is there to stop them continually upping the price?



bigdog said:


> Abbot can't turn the boats around; they will simply jump overboard to be rescued!



So if they did turn the first boat around, and the people did jump overboard, would you advocate (as a harsh measure of deterrence for the future) just letting the people drown?

I raised this earlier and no one was up for responding.


----------



## Bintang (11 June 2013)

Julia said:


> Isn't this like any other form of what is essentially blackmail?  What is there to stop them continually upping the price?




Yes they will up the price. However..........
Every illegal boat is costing tax payers $12.8 million. On average each boat  has 58 passengers which means that each person arriving on these boats is costing taxpayers $220,000.  This cost is much  more than the asylum seekers are paying in fees/bribes to Indonesian officials. So Australia would need to pay more to the Indonesians than the asylum seekers can afford to pay but it in the long run it will be cheaper for us.




Julia said:


> So if they did turn the first boat around, and the people did jump overboard, would you advocate (as a harsh measure of deterrence for the future) just letting the people drown?
> I raised this earlier and no one was up for responding.




Yes,  in fact I would but only after a period of highly publicised warnings that Australia will enact such a deterrent. I consider the assault on our borders to be like war. We are being invaded. So respond by warning that Australia will 'go to war' on the invaders if they do not stop. As far as I am concerned all the bleeding heart liberals who will disagree with me and berate me for what am saying can all be damned because there is no such thing here as a soft, warm and fuzzy solution here.


----------



## sptrawler (13 June 2013)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...asylum-time-bomb/story-fni0fit3-1226662780447

It sounds as though Melbourne is coping the brunt of the asylum seeker problems. Oh well, we will see how that translates to votes in September.
What I can't understand is, if they are being provided housing and 89% of the newstart allowance, why such a public outcry?
Our unemployed have to find housing and get a similar sum of money, nobody appears to be worried about them.


----------



## Julia (13 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...asylum-time-bomb/story-fni0fit3-1226662780447
> 
> It sounds as though Melbourne is coping the brunt of the asylum seeker problems. Oh well, we will see how that translates to votes in September.
> What I can't understand is, if they are being provided housing and 89% of the newstart allowance, why such a public outcry?
> Our unemployed have to find housing and get a similar sum of money, nobody appears to be worried about them.



Exactly.  And they do not have the same immediate access to all kinds of medical, psychological, dental treatment, plus free legal counsel.  
Just so, so unfair and disgusting.


----------



## Calliope (13 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> What I can't understand is, if they are being provided housing and 89% of the newstart allowance, why such a public outcry?




Yes, and free mobiles and unlimited free calls, running into thousands, to their homelands.


----------



## Ijustnewit (13 June 2013)

Just thought I would add they are receiving full eye exams and optical and spectacle needs as well. :1zhelp:


----------



## noco (13 June 2013)

Shoooooo, we must not talk about asylum seekers, we have more important things to talk about like MENUS and BLUE TIES


----------



## Bintang (13 June 2013)

noco said:


> Shoooooo, we must not talk about asylum seekers, we have more important things to talk about like MENUS and BLUE TIES




How about talking ANIMAL RIGHTS as well. I think all these comparisons of our fine feathered friends with Labor party politicians is very demeaning and if it continues will surely invoke the ire of Animal Rights Activists.


----------



## noco (14 June 2013)

Ha Doc, how many boats this week?

The media have gone to sleep again.

Or are they still dreaming about menus, blue ties and whether Tim is gay?

What a slack lot they are!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2013)

noco said:


> Ha Doc, how many boats this week?



9 so far.

I'll do the add-up over the weekend.


----------



## tigerboi (15 June 2013)

sptrawler said:


> What I can't understand is, if they are being provided housing and 89% of the newstart allowance, why such a public outcry?
> Our unemployed have to find housing and get a similar sum of money, nobody appears to be worried about them.




maybe  you can understand this???

http://www.smh.com.au/business/fede...als-cost-blows-out-by-32b-20130514-2jkq8.html

or this

http://pickeringpost.com/article/asylumseeker-travel-costs-70m-report/310

so what is right about putting 10 illegals in a 2 bed unit in Liverpool Sydney,
 none can speak English & they cannot work here legally & we are GIVING them money
WHILE PREGNANT WOMEN HAVE BABIES IN TOILETS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT
HASNT GOT THE MONEY TO FUND EXTRA BEDS...do you remember that ? it happened
at royal north shore a few years ago.

pensioners that have worked their ar5es off for 50 years cant get a procedure done before 18 months
because our traitorous government has bent over for the likes of the UN instead of looking after
AUSTRALIANS...

these people inparticular offer nothing to this country they are a burden we can do without

so do you understand now...tb


----------



## qldfrog (15 June 2013)

Julia said:


> Isn't this like any other form of what is essentially blackmail?  What is there to stop them continually upping the price?
> 
> 
> So if they did turn the first boat around, and the people did jump overboard, would you advocate (as a harsh measure of deterrence for the future) just letting the people drown?
> ...



agree with you, you can still "try" to save some but I doubt many "travellers" would like a 1 out of 2 or even 10 chance.
Picking people on open sea is not easy and in desesperate time, (as we are, do not fool yourself), we need desesperate measures


----------



## Bintang (15 June 2013)

tigerboi said:


> these people inparticular offer nothing to this country they are a burden we can do without




I'm not sure this is correct. I think many of them are driving taxis for us. Especially around Melbourne airport.


----------



## Calliope (15 June 2013)

In Brisbane it is mainly Indian students trying to earn a buck.



> Corruption and an influx of Indian students attending international colleges is killing the taxi industry, insiders say.
> They say an explosion of racism and corruption in the taxi industry is partly due to dodgy recruiting practices among colleges who are luring Indian students to Australia.
> Veteran drivers say the industry can no longer support the huge number of workers, many of them Indian students, who are scrambling to keep afloat.
> Drivers who were once able to earn a living from driving now make as little as $5 an hour.


----------



## drsmith (15 June 2013)

It would seem that the refugee assessment process has been little more than a rubber stamp.



> The Weekend Australian also interviewed a former member of the Refugee Review Tribunal, who worked on the independent merits review processes for asylum-seekers.
> 
> He said that asylum-seekers on Christmas Island told him they had simply copied their claims from other applicants who had been successful.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...cess-breaks-down/story-fn59niix-1226664169170


----------



## drsmith (15 June 2013)

10 boats carrying 601 passengers over the past week. This compares to 5 boats carrying 304 passengers for the same period last year.



> 14/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 14/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 14/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 13/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## tigerboi (15 June 2013)

Bintang said:


> I'm not sure this is correct. I think many of them are driving taxis for us. Especially around Melbourne airport.




it is correct they are not legally permitted to work


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2013)

10 boats carrying 782 passengers over the last week. This compares to 6 boats carrying 530 passengers for the same period last year.



> 21/06/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 21/06/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 21/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 20/06/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## drsmith (29 June 2013)

In addition to Kevin Rudd's extraordinary comments yesterday linking turning back the boats to potential conflict with Indonesia, Bob Carr finally admits the extent to which Labor has been asleep at the wheel.



> GEORGE ROBERTS, REPORTER: So when asked how many of the asylum seeker arrivals he thinks are economic migrants rather than refugees, here is what Bob Carr had to say.
> 
> BOB CARR, FOREIGN MINISTER: I would need to get that out of our, out of the Immigration Department, but as I've looked at data about recent vessels, I would suggest it's been 100 per cent, it's been 100 per cent.
> 
> The point is, the evidence has shifted under our eyes. A few years ago you could say that most of the people had some case to make about fleeing persecution. Now that's changed.




Apart from the obvious acknowledgement of policy failure that this statement represents, it raises a few other obvious questions,

1) Bob Carr has been Foreign Minister for over 12 months. Why then has it taken him this long to acknowledge the data ?

2) Kevin Rudd has either occupied the office of Foreign Minister or Prime Minister for the remainder of the time Labor's been in office since 2007. Why then did he change the policy settings that were previously effective and then subsequently fail to acknowledge the data ?

3) If this confession is part of an overall campaign to convince the voting public that Labor can solve the problem it created, why has Labor waited until now ?

If now by some miracle Labor could substantially solve this problem, there would be further obvious questions,

1) Why would Labor wait until billions of dollars were wasted managing boat arrivals before acting ?
2) Why would Labor wait until over 40000 arrivals from over 700 boats to act ?
3) And most importantly of all, Why would Labor wait for over 1000 lives to be lost at sea before acting ?

The conclusions I have drawn are as follows,

Firstly, under Kevin Rudd's leadership it was a change in social policy, or in effect a social experiment as Malcolm Turnbull has described it. Then under Julia Gillard, the rate of arrivals accelerated dramatically to satisfy the Greens in their alliance with Labor to form government. 

Now it would appear that the same people who created the problem in the first place and allowed it to accelerate under their watch are going to try and claim they can solve it.

The effective inaction on this issue from the independents that aligned with Labor to form government also needs to be scrutinised. It's a big black mark against them given their desire for influence on other parts of national policy such as carbon pricing. 

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3792346.htm


----------



## dutchie (29 June 2013)

drsmith said:


> Now it would appear that the same people who created the problem in the first place and allowed it to accelerate under their watch are going to try and claim they can solve it.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3792346.htm




They also criticise the opposition for their statements that they can fix the problem, without giving them the chance to do so, and ignoring the fact that they did solve the problem previously.



Hypocrites the lot of them!


----------



## drsmith (4 July 2013)

6 boats carrying 403 passengers to the week ending Friday June 28. This compares to 3 boats carrying 204 passengers for the same period last year.



> 27/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 27/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 27/06/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 25/06/2013   Merchant vessel renders assistance
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## noco (5 July 2013)

I wonder if it is possible for Rudd and Carr to ever tell the truth with us voters instead of trying to pull the wool over our eyes. They have been caught out again as the link below reveals regarding asylum seekers.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ker-claims-wrong/story-fn9qr68y-1226674545207


----------



## noco (6 July 2013)

Rudd has talks with SBY in Indonesia and that is about all it will be "ALL TALK AND NO ACTION".

Typical stunt by Rudd to make out to the Australian voters that he is doing something to stop the boats and the boats will still come in force right up to the time he is kicked out of office.

What a psycho this bloke is. Anythng to gain popularity.

I would hasten to say SBY has summed up Rudd very well.


http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/17887268/indonesia-rudd-back-international-talks-on-boat-people/


----------



## Calliope (6 July 2013)

Abbott's policy of turning back the boats does work!



> ABC radio yesterday ran an interview about the practical reality of border security that could have been run any time over the past three years, since people-smuggling has again become rampant.
> 
> The former chief of navy, Chris Ritchie, explained how asylum boats were successfully turned back a decade ago. "If the conditions were replicated," he said, "it could still work." Asked why the practice stopped, he said, "No more boats came." "None at all?" asked the ABC. "None at all, none at all," said the retired vice-admiral.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-goes-to-jakarta/story-e6frg71x-1226675047762


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Abbott's policy of turning back the boats does work!
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-goes-to-jakarta/story-e6frg71x-1226675047762




No it doesn't, Kev just asked Bam Bam and he said they didn't want them back.

Just want their money on the way through.lol


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2013)

I see "me too ' Kev is back at it.

The coalitions policy of no papers no processing, is starting to morph into 'Me too Kev's' language.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...estroy-passports/story-fni0cx12-1226675352379


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2013)

6 boats carrying 402 passengers to the week ending Friday July 5. This compares to 5 boats carrying 300 passengers for the same period last year.



> 05/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 04/07/2013   Merchant vessel renders assistance
> 04/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 02/07/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html

The asylum seekers on the merchant vessel above used threats of self harm to ensure their passage to Australia when the captain was going to return them to Indonesia. 

Labor's response to this is of course very different to that of the Coalition.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...a-troops-mission/story-fn9hm1gu-1226675853279


----------



## Julia (8 July 2013)

The blackmailing of the merchant ship attempting to return asylum seekers to Indonesia is something that should not be acceptable.

Labor still cannot come to grips with the reality of what is needed to stop the flow.

Greg Sheridan provides a rational account of Rudd's scaremongering with his description of Australia's rights and those of Indonesia.  As he points out, Singapore refuses to accept any boats at all:  they are not engaged in conflict with Indonesia.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...odds-with-abbott/story-e6frg76f-1226675630988

Scott Morrison gave a spirited response to Fran Kelly's questions this morning. 
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/battlelines-drawn-on-asylum-policy/4804980

 If Mr Abbott had the fluency of Mr Morrison, the Coalition would be in a better place imo.
Julie Bishop was also calm and reasonable on The Insiders yesterday.
Shouldn't Mr Abbott be sharing the load here?


----------



## Calliope (8 July 2013)

The don't even have to threaten "self harm" for our border "protection" vessels to bring them to Christmas Island. We actually go looking for them in Indonesian waters.



> Ms Bishop denies the Coalition would act unilaterally, because Indonesia was well aware of Coalition policy and there would be no surprises. In reality, if the Australian navy intercepted an Indonesian vessel in Australian waters illegally transporting people, Indonesia would have no grounds for objecting to it being turned back. *The current situation, in which Australia rescued a boatload of asylum-seekers on Friday just 42 nautical miles from Java before transferring them to Christmas Island, is untenable. Canberra can no longer remain passive.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...aling-with-boats/story-e6frg71x-1226675622327


----------



## Julia (8 July 2013)

Frank Brennan has advanced the suggestion that the government arrange for all asylum seekers, on arrival, to be put on a plane back to Indonesia, on the basis that this will send a strong message without risking their safety.

Good luck with that, Father Brennan.


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2013)

Julia said:


> Scott Morrison gave a spirited response to Fran Kelly's questions this morning.
> http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/battlelines-drawn-on-asylum-policy/4804980



That was a good performance by Scott Morrison, right down to the dig at Kevin Rudd at the end.

He comes across like he's very much on top of his portfolio.


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2013)

Labor finally admits its Malaysia solution was a dud.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...orm-labor-admits/story-fn9hm1gu-1226676029663

The weekend and today so far have seen another 6 boats carrying 550 passengers.


----------



## Zedd (8 July 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23222546

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1784604/Syrian-refugees-blocked-from-fleeing


----------



## Zedd (8 July 2013)

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/t...ustralian-waters/story-fndir2ev-1226676024840


----------



## Julia (10 July 2013)

An apt letter to "The Australian" today following the blackmail of asylum seekers re their threats of self harm when rescued by a merchant ship which intended to take them to an Indonesian port.


> If an aircraft pilot were coerced by a passenger to change direction and land at a different airport, the passenger would be charged with hijacking the aircraft.
> 
> Why isn't the same standard applied to boat people?


----------



## sptrawler (10 July 2013)

Julia said:


> An apt letter to "The Australian" today following the blackmail of asylum seekers re their threats of self harm when rescued by a merchant ship which intended to take them to an Indonesian port.




This has happened on other occassions under Labor, therefore it is obviously deemed as acceptable behaviour.


----------



## bellenuit (12 July 2013)

I couldn't agree more with Alexander Downer's article today. Exactly what many of us have been saying.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...spect-in-jakarta/story-e6frgd0x-1226677876352

*Rudd sold out our national interests and lost respect in Jakarta*

THE best international bilateral relationships are based on mutual respect. We acknowledge their issues and sensitivities and they acknowledge ours. And between the two we try to sort it all out.

Well, for the past 5 1/2 years the Australian government hasn't applied this principle to our relationship with Indonesia. Instead, it has lurched between reckless self-interest and fawning deference towards our largest neighbour. Not surprisingly, the results have not been good.

The government recklessly cut off some of Indonesia's food supply by banning live cattle exports, all on the back of a television program. The result is it not only unnecessarily antagonised Indonesia but we've lost much of that valuable trade.

Then there's the issue of people-smuggling. Let's state the obvious. The Australian government has spectacularly failed to harness the help of Indonesia to close down people-smuggling and protect our borders.

This is the most dramatic failure of Australian diplomacy since Gough Whitlam gave president Suharto a wink and a nod in Townsville in 1975 to invade East Timor.

During the Howard years the Indonesians told us on several occasions they thought the people-smuggling issue was our problem, not theirs.

I didn't accept that. The Indonesians were up to their necks in the issue. Indonesian-flagged boats with Indonesian crews were bringing people illegally and for money to our shores.

I told them we were going to stop it. It was then, as it is now, a problem in our relationship that had to be fixed. At no time did I seek Indonesia's permission to protect my own country's borders. We have every right to protect our borders and we don't need anyone's permission to do so.

We adopted a policy of zero tolerance of people arriving illegally on our shores, especially in rickety Indonesian fishing boats. We refused to let the Tampa land people in Australia and as an extension of that policy we did turn back boats when we could.

In protecting our borders we treated our great neighbour with respect. We kept the Indonesians fully informed about our actions. We didn't mislead or deceive them. But never, never, ever did we ask another country's permission to protect our borders. No self-respecting government would do that. Ever.

And it worked. The boats stopped, the integrity of our immigration scheme was restored and our relationship with Indonesia went through a golden era. We learned to help each other.

The then Indonesian foreign minister, Hassan Wirajuda, and I set up the Bali process to develop regional co-operation on people-smuggling. We worked with the Indonesian authorities to track down the people-smugglers and break up their cartels. We helped the Indonesian police and intelligence agencies track down and stamp out terrorism. We gave them $1 billion to help with the reconstruction of Aceh after the tsunami in 2004.

I'll never forget President Yudhoyono taking my hand in both of his and, with tears in his eyes, saying he would never forget Australia's generosity and help. It was a moving moment. He made me shed a tear as well.

We jointly set up another regional process to counter terrorism. We even jointly set up a regional inter-faith dialogue in the wake of the Bali bombings.

It all seems a long time ago now. Terrorism hasn't returned but the boats have become an armada and hundreds of lives have been lost. It's heartbreaking to see all our good work undone by Kevin Rudd, the global master of playing cynical domestic politics.

If John Howard had rung me and asked if he should sign a joint communique with Indonesia saying we would never act unilaterally to protect our borders I would have told him it would be a sell-out of our national interest. It would be weak and fawning. You don't win respect signing documents like that. But that's hypothetical. Howard, a patriot if ever there were one, wouldn't have countenanced signing such a document.

In one of his first acts after returning as prime minister, Rudd did just that. No one in Canberra said it but I would have: it was weak, cynical domestic politics. Rudd sold out our national interests and in doing so won applause from the press gallery but lost respect in Jakarta. In 1975 Labor sold out East Timor to Jakarta and left us with a bloody mess to sort out. Since 2007, Rudd has done a similar thing, but this time he has sold out Australia, not little East Timor.

The government has made a huge mistake signalling it won't turn back the boats no matter how hard that may be.

It sends a simple message. We'll use the navy to facilitate the arrival of the boats, not to protect our borders. No wonder they keep coming. We are helping them, not stopping them.

It's heartbreaking for me to watch all this. Rudd has undone all the good work we did and the best he has come up with is a new regional conference. We already have a regional process in place, the Bali process.

And a last thought: how come our Foreign Minister isn't trying to fix this up? He spends his time on Twitter and Facebook. He's the Foreign Minister: his job is to solve problems, not play with his iPad. It's as sad as it is pathetic.

_Alexander Downer was foreign minister from 1996 to 2007._


----------



## sails (12 July 2013)

Excellent article - thanks for posting it, Bellenuit!


----------



## drsmith (12 July 2013)

From the article above,



> The government has made a huge mistake signalling it won't turn back the boats no matter how hard that may be.
> 
> It sends a simple message. We'll use the navy to facilitate the arrival of the boats, not to protect our borders. No wonder they keep coming. We are helping them, not stopping them.




To the above, I would add that this just ups the price Indonesia will demand to ultimately do their part. Their government I imagine would be laughing at a neighbour that seeks to negotiate itself into an ever worse position for it's own ideological stupidity and short term domestic political gain.


----------



## Julia (12 July 2013)

sails said:


> Excellent article - thanks for posting it, Bellenuit!






drsmith said:


> To the above, I would add that this just ups the price Indonesia will demand to ultimately do their part. Their government I imagine would be laughing at a neighbour that seeks to negotiate itself into an ever worse position for it's own ideological stupidity and short term domestic political gain.



+1 to both above endorsements.

Thinking about Alexander Downer, one of his pretty competent colleagues was Phillip Ruddock whom I understand is still in Parliament.  Shouldn't he be brought back to the Front Bench?


----------



## drsmith (15 July 2013)

With Kevin Rudd darting off to Indonesia and now PNG, Labor has chalked up another fine achievement (cough) while in office, that being over 1000 boat arrivals in a week.

12 boats carrying 1156 passengers to the week ending Friday July 12. This compares to 3 boats carrying 76 passengers for the same period last year.



> 12/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 11/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 11/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 10/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## Calliope (15 July 2013)

This could set up a people-smuggling industry in New Guinea. Ferrying them across to a Torres Strait Island or even to the mainland would be a breeze.



> KEVIN Rudd will seek to persuade Papua New Guinea to take the so-called "economic migrants" Labor claims are now flooding Australia's shores in what could be a significant breakthrough in the asylum impasse.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...uinea-boats-deal/story-fn9hm1gu-1226679322104


----------



## Calliope (16 July 2013)

As Bolt says;



> The question is actually very simple:
> 
> Who should decide whether we accept Indonesian boats smuggling in illegal immigrants and purported “asylum seekers” - Indonesia or Australia?
> 
> ...




You can't argue with this.


----------



## Julia (16 July 2013)

They are now arriving from Vietnam.  Seems a pretty long time since that country was unsafe.


----------



## dutchie (16 July 2013)

Jakarta won't dictate our policy on boats: Coalition 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-boats-coalition/story-fn9hm1gu-1226679989441

INDONESIA would have no right of veto over any Coalition policy to deter asylum-seekers, Scott Morrison has declared.

The opposition immigration spokesman today accused Kevin Rudd of “contracting away” Australia's ability to decide how to stop boat arrivals, as both sides of politics seized on mixed messages from Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa about the Coalition's policy of turning back asylum-seeker boats.

“I am concerned that Bob Carr and Kevin Rudd are happy to just hand those decisions over, effectively provide a right of veto over Australia's national policies on these issues,” Mr Morrison told ABC radio.

“Now that is not something a Coalition government would ever agree to,” he said.



It's about time someone called a spade a spade (and showed some common sense).


----------



## Julia (16 July 2013)

dutchie said:


> “Now that is not something a Coalition government would ever agree to,” he said.
> It's about time someone called a spade a spade (and showed some common sense).



Exactly.  And Mr Morrison is doing it in spades.  He is one of the shadow ministers making up for his leader's deficiencies.


----------



## noco (17 July 2013)

Lives are being lost all because of Rudd's stupity and all this goon can say the loss of life is a tragedy.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/rudd_talks_people_drown/


----------



## explod (17 July 2013)

noco said:


> Lives are being lost all because of Rudd's stupity and all this goon can say the loss of life is a tragedy.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/rudd_talks_people_drown/




So how are the Libs going to stop the boats and loss of life?

The past is in the past, what is the solution going forward?


----------



## So_Cynical (17 July 2013)

explod said:


> The past is in the past, what is the solution going forward?




The Noalition and their supporters aren't interested in the future, just the past...turn back the clock, turning back the boats, turn back carbon pricing, turn back the NBN.

Tony demands that Rudd do something about the boats yet when given the opportunity wont do anything himself.


----------



## Julia (17 July 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Tony demands that Rudd do something about the boats yet when given the opportunity wont do anything himself.



I don't know how you can in any conscience make such a silly statement.  The Coalition are in opposition.
They can't do anything.  It's entirely up to the government to fix the mess they have created by dismantling the successful Pacific Solution.

The Coalition has spelled out very clearly what they will do if they win government.

I know we have to look at everything you say in the light of your uncritical devotion to Labor, but you need to  just think a bit more objectively about what you're saying.


----------



## drsmith (17 July 2013)

explod said:


> So how are the Libs going to stop the boats and loss of life?
> 
> The past is in the past, what is the solution going forward?



Don't worry.

After having started them again, Kev the miracle worker is going to stop the boats, perhaps just like he terminated the carbon tax. 

Three prongs I read. In the right place, that might get them back to Indonesia in a single yelp.



> Mr Abbott said he was more than happy to put partisanship aside and support Labor in making the changes needed to stop the boats.
> 
> "Bring back the parliament, let's debate this issue and let's make the changes now to stop the boats," he said in Mackay, Queensland.




Now, let's see the substance.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...to-administrator/story-fn3dxiwe-1226680522893


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2013)

See Kev is trying to sound like the problem solver.lol
That would be o.k except he caused the problem. What a dick


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2013)

See Kev is trying to sound like the problem solver.lol
That would be o.k except he caused the problem. What a dick.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...s-to-asylum-seeker-policy-20130717-2q3ix.html

I think it is starting to implode, the goon is incharge of the show again. Shame Swan isn't there, I miss those photos, they were better than the cartoonists.

Notice even the Laborites aren't talking it up. 
That's because, all the ideology they have been arguing about, has been thrown out the window.lol
Nothing like believing in someone who believes in nothing, other than winning office.lol


----------



## drsmith (17 July 2013)

The following poll question in the SMH is a doozie,



> Should the government of the day be allowed to act on the asylum seeker issue, unhindered by opposition parties?




The only way the opposition could hinder the government in governing is if the government doesn't command a majority on the floor of the house. 

Labor doesn't have a majority, but the government does, in both houses.

A better question would about whether the government of the day be allowed to act on the asylum seeker issue, unhindered by the parties or individuals that agreed to form that government.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...s-to-asylum-seeker-policy-20130717-2q3ix.html


----------



## noco (17 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I don't know how you can in any conscience make such a silly statement.  The Coalition are in opposition.
> They can't do anything.  It's entirely up to the government to fix the mess they have created by dismantling the successful Pacific Solution.
> 
> The Coalition has spelled out very clearly what they will do if they win government.
> ...




+ 1 Thanks Julia.Very well said.

Rudd is just a usless goon. All talk and no action. He reminds me of SC's galah.. No wonder he has removed it.


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2013)

It seems the pro Labor reporters have gone into shock.
It is hard to write editorials andd opinions, when you don't know what Rudd is going to back flip on.

They must be holding their pens, in anticipation of another left field announcement.lol

An announcement, that in all probability, in no way reflects what Labor have been purporting, for the last six years.lol


----------



## So_Cynical (17 July 2013)

Julia said:


> I don't know how you can in any conscience make such a silly statement.  The Coalition are in opposition.
> They can't do anything. .




Fact: The Noalition control the senate, have done since the last election, your not an idiot so you know that yet it appears your political bias wont allow you to comprehend the fact that any party that controls the senate has considerable power.

The power to pass Labors Malaysia policy or block it, the opposition chose to block it therefore must accept the fact that choosing to do so left us with the situation we have today, The Noalition playing politics with the lives of children...its pathetic.



Julia said:


> It's entirely up to the government to fix the mess they have created by dismantling the successful Pacific Solution.




Julia i know its hard for someone with the political bias that you have to understand this but..looking back is a blame game, a political blame game, solutions are in the here and now and the future.


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Fact: The Noalition control the senate, have done since the last election, your not an idiot so you know that yet it appears your political bias wont allow you to comprehend the fact that any party that controls the senate has considerable power.
> 
> The power to pass Labors Malaysia policy or block it, the opposition chose to block it therefore must accept the fact that choosing to do so left us with the situation we have today, The Noalition playing politics with the lives of children...its pathetic.




We are talking 45,000 people, not 800, get a grip. It's not as though they couldn't have said we need to reconsider, five years ago.
Why say it now?

What do you think Kevs going to stand for on asylum seekers, running up to the election?

Easy, whatever gets votes.lol


----------



## Julia (18 July 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Fact: The Noalition control the senate, have done since the last election, your not an idiot so you know that yet it appears your political bias wont allow you to comprehend the fact that any party that controls the senate has considerable power.



Labor's signed up ally, The Greens, could get the Malaysia deal through the Senate if they wanted to.
The Coalition  have no obligation to support a policy they know won't work.  To imagine Malaysia taking 800 would solve the problem is beyond comprehension, given the inflow of thousands.

The responsibility is entirely Kevin Rudd's.  It was he who dismantled the successful Coalition policy.  Mr Rudd needs to find a solution quickly.  The Navy can hardly keep up.  I wonder what they used to do when they were not acting as a taxi service.


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2013)

Interesting article, I see Labor are starting to morph into coalition policy on asylum seekers. The only thing they haven't mentioned is turning the boats back, but no doubt that will be said before election time.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/18040557/plan-to-fast-track-asylum-seekers-to-png/

Funny how there is a sense of urgency now, just before the election. Then after the election they can return to the mass immigration programme, if they get in.


----------



## Julia (18 July 2013)

Right.  All fixed then.  From the article:


> It is understood the Prime Minister secured in-principle agreement for greater co-operation from PNG counterpart Peter O'Neill when they met in Port Moresby on Monday.
> 
> One option being considered is establishing a large asylum seeker centre alongside Port Moresby's international airport in addition to the detention centre on Manus Island that can hold 300 people.



Presumably this means the existing detention centre can hold 300 people.  Aren't there quite a few people there already?  Given the rate of arrivals, this isn't going to be much help, and building a new centre is going to take how long?

In the meantime, the people who have been patiently waiting for years in camps will continue to do so.


----------



## ColB (18 July 2013)

Can't we get John Howard back to stop these economic refugees from being a huge burden on us hardworking taxpayers?

As if it isn't enough that we continue to pay for Krudds, Pink Batts and all the other financial follys he has imposed on us.

Vote Labor?  As John McEnroe would say " YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!"


----------



## drsmith (18 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting article, I see Labor are starting to morph into coalition policy on asylum seekers. The only thing they haven't mentioned is turning the boats back, but no doubt that will be said before election time.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/18040557/plan-to-fast-track-asylum-seekers-to-png/
> 
> Funny how there is a sense of urgency now, just before the election. Then after the election they can return to the mass immigration programme, if they get in.




From the above article,



> One option being considered is establishing a large asylum seeker centre alongside Port Moresby's international airport in addition to the detention centre on Manus Island that can hold 300 people.
> 
> In return, Mr O'Neill has demanded AusAID's $500 million-plus PNG program be directed at his health, education and infrastructure priorities.




I'm sure Uncle Kev won't have any difficulties with that or any amount of taxpayer dollars for that matter.


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> I'm sure Uncle Kev won't have any difficulties with that or any amount of taxpayer dollars for that matter.




There is no limits to what Kev will spend or backflip on. 
That is why IMO the coalition can't announce policy untill the election date is announced.
Then any adoption of coalition policy can be challenged, untill then it is just repositioning by Rudd.

If Kev was confident, he would have already called a date. Even he isn't sure his BS can cut it.


----------



## drsmith (18 July 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Fact: The Noalition control the senate,.......



Neither the Coalition or the Noalition (whoever that is) have control of the senate.

That responsibility rests squarely on the shoulders of Labor and its Green partners in government.

- - - Updated - - -



sptrawler said:


> If Kev was confident, he would have already called a date. Even he isn't sure his BS can cut it.



If his current sortie into asylum policy debate doesn't fall into a heap by then, Kev will call the election by the end of next weekend.


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> If his current sortie into asylum policy debate doesn't fall into a heap by then, Kev will call the election by the end of next weekend.




Yes I agree, he must have held the unions at bay, by sayiing he will get Abbott to disclose policy. 
That hasn't eventuated and now he looks like a clown. 
He is prepared to fix everything Labor couldn't fix, in the next four weeks. What an absolute tool. 

Makes an absolute joke of the government.


----------



## drsmith (18 July 2013)

Poor Jason Clare is struggling to keep up with the tide of boat arrivals on his Home Affairs site.

The two arrival announcements listed today are from Monday and Tuesday respectively.


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Poor Jason Clare is struggling to keep up with the tide of boat arrivals on his Home Affairs site.
> 
> The two arrival announcements listed today are from Monday and Tuesday respectively.




I listened to him on ABC radio, he sounded a bit overwhelmed, tried to sound matter a fact. But it was obviously a huge problem.

Also Chris Bowen looks like he has jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. 
But that look may be just a look of panic, trying to follow Rudd's convoluted policy on the run. 
Bowen has to come up with funding, he maybe wishes he had stayed with immigration.

Actually Bowen is probably the only Labor person I think is genuine. He appears to be trying to present a honest dialogue, whenever he is interviewed.
But having said that, he may have been through the same school of BS, as the rest of them.lol


----------



## noco (18 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Poor Jason Clare is struggling to keep up with the tide of boat arrivals on his Home Affairs site.
> 
> The two arrival announcements listed today are from Monday and Tuesday respectively.




Doc, Jason Clare most likely goes home every night and sleeps in a comfortable bed while the Christmas Island and Naval personel are under constant stress from rescue and trying to accommodate these illegals in make shift tents. The Island I believe was set up to accomodate about 2200 refugees and it now has near 4000.

This is something Jason Clare or Rudd the "DUDD" does not mentioned to the people of Australia.

Read the link below for the full story.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ver-asylum-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226681034941


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2013)

I wonder when Kev will sign up for a detention centre in Indonesia.lol 
I shouldn't laugh, it could happen.


----------



## Ijustnewit (19 July 2013)

From the article below " The man says he made up to $40,000 per boat he smuggled but he has now stopped organising boat departures and instead handles the money transfers."
 Boy am I in the wrong business !!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...ent-policies-wont-halt-asylum-seekers/4829144


----------



## Julia (19 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Actually Bowen is probably the only Labor person I think is genuine. He appears to be trying to present a honest dialogue, whenever he is interviewed.



I also think he's competent and if he were in a leadership position in Labor, rather than being obliged to follow the party line, he'd be capable of getting them back onto a sensible track.  Bring back Lindsay Tanner to work with him.


Ijustnewit said:


> From the article below " The man says he made up to $40,000 per boat he smuggled but he has now stopped organising boat departures and instead handles the money transfers."
> Boy am I in the wrong business !!
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...ent-policies-wont-halt-asylum-seekers/4829144



I had to laugh listening to that yesterday.  The ABC were breathlessly thrilled about having finally captured a people smuggler's views on tape.  For people who can't be bothered listening to it, the main focus of the reporting was that the smuggler said none of the currently proposed measures by either side of politics here would stop the boats, the incentive to escape 'murder and persecution 'or other similar miseries, were just too great.

It didn't seem to occur to the triumphant ABC that the person has a high stake in the continuing success of their operations and that he is pretty obviously going to say whatever preserves his position.

If a few more boats sank I doubt the enthusiasm to keep trying would be unaffected.


----------



## Calliope (19 July 2013)

Rudd has the situation in hand. The threat of resettlement in PNG will stop the boats in their tracks. No welfare in PNG.
And now Indonesia is going to refuse transit visas to Iranians. Krudd rules.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...d-in-third-world/story-e6frfku9-1226681741330


----------



## sails (19 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Rudd has the situation in hand. The threat of resettlement in PNG will stop the boats in their tracks. No welfare in PNG.
> And now Indonesia is going to refuse transit visas to Iranians. Krudd rules.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...d-in-third-world/story-e6frfku9-1226681741330




Labor's previous attempts at off-shore processing didnt seem to work too well. I wonder what they will do when this one is full?

Or is just more desperate smoke  and mirrors with the election imminent now?


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

If this article is accurate, it is starting to look like policy on the run again. I wonder what this will end up costing us?

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/18061108/asylum-boat-nears-dampier-platform/

An extract: My Bolds

Papua New Guinea plan


Papua New Guinea will become the primary refugee processing hub for the region with an increased capacity to accommodate 3000 asylum seekers under a plan expected to be announced today.

Manus Island MP Ronnie Knight said he was informed of the plan by PNG Prime Minister Peter O’Neill this morning.

“Yes, the PM informed me today,” Mr Knight said.

“There is currently capacity for 600, but the PM will announce this to be expanded to 3000, and *Manus to be the primary regional centre for the whole of the Pacific.”*Speculation of an expanded processing centre regime in PNG has been rife since Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd made a lightning 21-hour visit to Port Moresby earlier in the week.

Last night, Mr O’Neill’s staff denied he was was flying to Brisbane on Friday to meet with Mr Rudd.

However, the PNG consulate in Brisbane said today Mr O’Neill is expected to land there around 4pm Perth time, where he will meet Mr Rudd.

Mr Knight said he was happy with the plan, but there needed to be changes to the way the program is run.

“My terms are I want the Royal Australian Navy to take over Lombrum Naval Base and protect my waters from illegal fishing.

“I also want the Momote airport expanded and made international.”

He said he also wanted locals employed in security roles, “not like now where G4S is flying in mainlanders.

“This is not going down well with locals,” he said.

There are currently 215 asylum seekers housed on Manus’ Lombrum naval base.

Since November, they have been housed in tents in conditions that have been heavily criticised by the United Nations refugee agency and rights groups.

Two weeks ago, a PNG court dismissed a constitutional challenge brought by the opposition against the Manus Island detention centre.


----------



## Calliope (19 July 2013)

sails said:


> Or is just more desperate smoke  and mirrors with the election imminent now?




Of course, but as PM he can appear to be doing something. He can make deals with Indonesian and PNG leaders, whereas Abbott and Morrison have been reduced to repetitive slogans. I have little doubt that if Rudd can sell the idea that he has the boat issue in hand, he will call an early election, but he will only call it if he thinks it is winnable.

Australia's future Governance hangs in the balance on the boat issue.


----------



## Julia (19 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Of course, but as PM he can appear to be doing something. He can make deals with Indonesian and PNG leaders, whereas Abbott and Morrison have been reduced to repetitive slogans. I have little doubt that if Rudd can sell the idea that he has the boat issue in hand, he will call an early election, but he will only call it if he thinks it is winnable.



But can he sell the idea on the basis of just 3000 places in a detention centre that is not yet even on the drawing board?  How long will it take to build?  What happens in the meantime?  Haven't there been around 25,000 arrivals in the last year?
I can't see the electorate finding an as yet thought bubble of 3000 detention places terribly convincing.

The winners here are Indonesia and PNG, who must be laughing with great pleasure about how they can dictate to Australia.

And if Rudd announces that he will organise globally for changes to the Refugee Convention, I don't think too many people are silly enough to believe that he can just rock (maybe zip?) over to NY, dictate his preferred changes to a secretary, and the members of the UN (many of whom represent disadvantaged countries who would be horrified at any change to the status quo) will just smile gratefully and wave it through.


----------



## sails (19 July 2013)

Julia said:


> But can he sell the idea on the basis of just 3000 places in a detention centre that is not yet even on the drawing board?  How long will it take to build?  What happens in the meantime?  Haven't there been around 25,000 arrivals in the last year?
> I can't see the electorate finding an as yet thought bubble of 3000 detention places terribly convincing.
> 
> The winners here are Indonesia and PNG, who must be laughing with great pleasure about how they can dictate to Australia.
> ...




And at 100 arrivals per day it will be filled in 30 days... Then what?

I purpose Rudd will hope voters will gasp in awe at  his grandiose plan and not think about what will happen to the thousands more after Manus Is is at capacity.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2013)

Kevin Rudd has just announced that no new boat arrivals will be settled in Australia.  They will be settled in New Guinea.  Be interesting to see how the Greens and much of the Labour Party receive this piece of news.


> *
> Kevin Rudd to send asylum seekers on boats to Papua New Guinea*
> 
> Date
> ...




Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...-new-guinea-20130719-2q9fa.html#ixzz2ZTN5gFDQ


Calliope you are dead right..  If implemented this will stop people smuggling  dead in their tracks.


----------



## Calliope (19 July 2013)

basilio said:


> Calliope you are dead right..  If implemented this will stop people smuggling  dead in their tracks.




Rudd appears to have neutralised  Abbott's "a great big tax" and "turn back the boats". An early election looms.

After PNG, Iran and Afghanistan will look like paradise.


----------



## banco (19 July 2013)

Julia said:


> But can he sell the idea on the basis of just 3000 places in a detention centre that is not yet even on the drawing board?  How long will it take to build?  What happens in the meantime?  Haven't there been around 25,000 arrivals in the last year?
> I can't see the electorate finding an as yet thought bubble of 3000 detention places terribly convincing.
> 
> The winners here are Indonesia and PNG, who must be laughing with great pleasure about how they can dictate to Australia.
> ...




Before with offshore processing you might go to Nauru or somewhere and then come to Australia after a couple of years.  If best case scenario you are determined to be a refugee you get to resettle in a ****hole like PNG you'd think very carefully about getting on the boat.  You might never fill up the detention center in PNG such will be the deterrent.


----------



## noco (19 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Rudd appears to have neutralised  Abbott's "a great big tax" and "turn back the boats". An early election looms.
> 
> After PNG, Iran and Afghanistan will look like paradise.




Rudd is only dreaming and probably a wet one at that.

Settle them in PNG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rudd has got rocks in his head.  He spent 23 hours in the country and thinks it is paradise. After travelling throughout PNG for 18 years 2 and 3 times a year, I would be happy to elaborate on the conditions there and I can tell you it will not be conducive to mid Eastern refugees.

All that will do is encourage a new people smuggling racket from PNG to the Thusrday Islands which is a lot closer from Indonesia to Christmas Island.

You can also bet your boots Rudd has dangled a big carrot in front of O'Neill and O'Neill is being sucked in with his spin and rhetoric. 

Rudd has not excercised a great deal of research on his hare brain scheme and is just another stupid policy on the run. 

But then again, it looks like he is doing something which the naive will fall for it over and over again.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

sails said:


> And at 100 arrivals per day it will be filled in 30 days... Then what?
> 
> I purpose Rudd will hope voters will gasp in awe at  his grandiose plan and not think about what will happen to the thousands more after Manus Is is at capacity.




If as the article says, the catchment area is the Pacific Ocean, it will fill in no time.


----------



## sails (19 July 2013)

From the Age by David Flitton:



> By the numbers, shifting the asylum seeker problem to Papua New Guinea simply fails to add up.
> 
> The nation already has a substantial headache with refugees – about 9000 people have fled across the border from Indonesian West Papua and remain, in the cold parlance of the United Nations, ''in need of durable solutions''.
> 
> Currently, national legislation does not provide an adequate framework to deal with asylum-seekers and refugees in PNG




and



> The UN concluded in its most recent periodic review, ''Currently, national legislation does not provide an adequate framework to deal with asylum-seekers and refugees in PNG.''
> 
> Kevin Rudd has decided otherwise.




Read full article: Numbers don't lie: PNG solution flawed


----------



## banco (19 July 2013)

Surely the problems with PNG are a feature and not a bug with this proposed policy? If they were being sent to Canada they would keep coming.  If they are being sent to a poor, corrupt, third world country they might as well stay where they are.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

banco said:


> Surely the problems with PNG are a feature and not a bug with this proposed policy? If they were being sent to Canada they would keep coming.  If they are being sent to a poor, corrupt, third world country they might as well stay where they are.




I wonder when this will be challenged by the lawyers?


----------



## noco (19 July 2013)

sails said:


> From the Age by David Flitton:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well that says it all Sails on what I would have elaborated on from experience within PNG.


----------



## medicowallet (19 July 2013)

Oh I await for the arthritis in the thumbs of those idealistic teens who will tweet "Rudd the racist, insensitive, cruel immoral"  on Q&A next week.

Or am I dreaming?

lol

MW


----------



## Calliope (19 July 2013)

noco said:


> You can also bet your boots Rudd has dangled a big carrot in front of O'Neill and O'Neill is being sucked in with his spin and rhetoric. .




I think that the only reasonable solution to the boats issue was to buy the Indonesian or PNG governments. It will take big bucks but that won't worry Ruddy. The Cargo Cult is still very strong in PNG. It is a bit of a worry that when the people smugglers relocate to PNG, that they might start smuggling the locals in too. However that's down the track.


----------



## So_Cynical (19 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> If Kev was confident, he would have already called a date. Even he isn't sure his BS can cut it.




Perhaps (like Paul so many years ago) he wants to do Tony slowly. 
~
[video=youtube_share;lEsN4-XLE2k]http://youtu.be/lEsN4-XLE2k[/video]


----------



## Calliope (19 July 2013)

medicowallet said:


> Oh I await for the arthritis in the thumbs of those idealistic teens who will tweet "Rudd the racist, insensitive, cruel immoral"  on Q&A next week.
> 
> Or am I dreaming?
> 
> ...




Milne is screaming. But there is one thing Rudd has learned (and Gillard too late), is that if the Greens are for it...it must be bad, and if they are agin it ...it must be good for the rest of us.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Milne is screaming. But there is one thing Rudd has learned (and Gillard too late), is that if the Greens are for it...it must be bad, and if they are agin it ...it must be good for the rest of us.




I wonder why, if everything can be fixed in a month, wasn't it done before?


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> I'm curious Doc, when do you think this will become an important enough issue for the noalition to take some action?
> 
> Or is there no political advantage to be had in saving Afgan children from a water grave?




You posted that back in March, funny how easy it was for Labor to fix it, makes a bit of a joke out of Labors position, doesn't it.

Maybe as you said there was no political advantage for Labor, back then.


----------



## Calliope (19 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder why, if everything can be fixed in a month, wasn't it done before?




It is surprising, when all it takes is to grease a few palms, and this is something that Labor is good at. Gillard governed for three years just by bribing Windsor and Oakeshott. How come she didn't realise she had the solution to the boats issue? It would have saved her job. It will probably cost us less than pink batts.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> It is surprising, when all it takes is to grease a few palms, and this is something that Labor is good at. Gillard governed for three years just by bribing Windsor and Oakeshott. How come she didn't realise she had the solution to the boats issue? It would have saved her job. It will probably cost us less than pink batts.




Obviously they were happy with the immigration, as it was.

Who knows what the underlying drivers are.


----------



## sails (19 July 2013)

This is possibly in reaction to Rudd's announcement:



> RIOTING Iranians on Nauru have taken detention staff hostage in what may be a violent response to Kevin Rudd's PNG asylum seeker solution.
> 
> A Nauruan MP took to state television to call for big, strong men to head to the processing camp as Nauruan riot police were overwhelmed by the the number of rioting asylum seekers.
> 
> ...




Read more:
http://www.news.com.au/national-new...n/story-fncynjr2-1226681915951#/ixzz2ZUFvfro5



And further down the page of that article I found this (bold is mine) - surely the debt levels will be going into overdrive:



> *Australia will half fund university reforms in Papua New Guinea, the redevelopment of a hospital in Lae and its ongoing costs, and law and order initiatives as well as all resettlement costs for refugees as part of Kevin Rudd's new asylum boat solution .*
> 
> The sweeteners are expected to cost billions, but the camp at Manus Island is a boatload away from being full and the Defence Force will send personnel to the island next week to help boost capacity.


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2013)

Just out of interest, is their anything stopping an Australian citizen setting up a company in Indonesia that tows back stricken asylum vessels back into Indonesian ports?


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

moXJO said:


> Just out of interest, is their anything stopping an Australian citizen setting up a company in Indonesia that tows back stricken asylum vessels back into Indonesian ports?




Yes the passengers on the stricken boat, the crew of the stricken boat and probably the Indonesian government.


----------



## drsmith (19 July 2013)

sails said:


> This is possibly in reaction to Rudd's announcement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even with the number of digits between the dollar sign and the decimal point, the PNG delegation aren't exactly displaying happy faces.


----------



## Julia (19 July 2013)

sails said:


> And at 100 arrivals per day it will be filled in 30 days... Then what?
> 
> I purpose Rudd will hope voters will gasp in awe at  his grandiose plan and not think about what will happen to the thousands more after Manus Is is at capacity.



This, of course, has now been made redundant in the face of the policy announced today.  So clever of him.



Calliope said:


> Rudd appears to have neutralised  Abbott's "a great big tax" and "turn back the boats". An early election looms.
> 
> After PNG, Iran and Afghanistan will look like paradise.



Exactly.  No one is going to want to spend the rest of their life on PNG  It's a stroke of brilliance on Rudd's part, I have to admit.



noco said:


> Rudd is only dreaming and probably a wet one at that.
> 
> Settle them in PNG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rudd has got rocks in his head.  He spent 23 hours in the country and thinks it is paradise.



I don't think he thinks any such thing.  He will be only too aware that it's one of the most awful places ever, not just physically but in terms of lack of basic law and order, political chicanery etc.  He has almost certainly negotiated this deal with PNG with precisely that in mind, i.e. no one in their right mind would be keen to be sent to PNG even temporarily, let alone permanently settled there.
Why would you think he'd be looking for a place to send asylum seekers that would make them happy?
He's looking for a deterrent, not a further encouragement.



> After travelling throughout PNG for 18 years 2 and 3 times a year, I would be happy to elaborate on the conditions there and I can tell you it will not be conducive to mid Eastern refugees.



Exactly.  And that is why he has cleverly chosen it.



> All that will do is encourage a new people smuggling racket from PNG to the Thusrday Islands which is a lot closer from Indonesia to Christmas Island.



They would gain nothing by so doing.  It has been made entirely clear that any boat arrivals from today have no chance of being settled in Australia, this being the obvious purpose of all the asylum seekers.



> You can also bet your boots Rudd has dangled a big carrot in front of O'Neill and O'Neill is being sucked in with his spin and rhetoric.



And from their point of view, why not?  They get money to pursue their own needs, plus Australia stands for the entire cost of building and manning the proposed new detention centre, which will probably also provide employment for PNG people.  What's not to like about that?



> Rudd has not excercised a great deal of research on his hare brain scheme and is just another stupid policy on the run.



I don't agree.  I think he has given this careful thought and has come up with a winning strategy if he can just manage to implement it successfully.  



banco said:


> Surely the problems with PNG are a feature and not a bug with this proposed policy? If they were being sent to Canada they would keep coming.  If they are being sent to a poor, corrupt, third world country they might as well stay where they are.



And that is exactly the purpose of Rudd's proposition.  Makes great sense and will probably tip the final balance his way.

He has been very clever indeed in pulling the rug out from Mr Abbott on both the carbon tax and now how to stop the boats.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

It is going to be interesting to see how the Labor left see these moves by Rudd.

It appears Rudd is selling Labors principles for political gain. Cameron and the unions will be gagging.

Rudd is trying to position Labor as 'Liberal lite', that in itself leaves a vacuum for the Greens to fill.


----------



## drsmith (19 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> It appears Rudd is selling Labors principles for political gain. Cameron and the unions will be gagging.



What principles are those ? 

Labor has prostituted its principles to such a point that they are long since worn out. 

Even Craig Thomson's former HSU credit card is in a far better state that what's left of Labor's torn and tattered principles.


----------



## Tink (19 July 2013)

Exactly sptrawler.

The public would be seeing right through him now, and all before the election, and he wants to make sure they cant throw him out.
No worries......


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> What principles are those ?
> 
> Labor has prostituted its principles to such a point that they are long since worn out.
> 
> Even Craig Thomson's former HSU credit card is in a far better state that what's left of Labor's torn and tattered principles.




It is just Kev playing 'the ends justifies the means' politics.
But I can't see Labor die hards being very happy with it. Kev is taking them back to the future and they didn't like it the first time round.

They will be wondering now why they got rid of Gillard.
Instead they are all pulling on fishnets, lipstick and getting out there for votes.lol


----------



## drsmith (19 July 2013)

sails said:


> This is possibly in reaction to Rudd's announcement:
> 
> Read more:
> http://www.news.com.au/national-new...n/story-fncynjr2-1226681915951#/ixzz2ZUFvfro5



More on the riot from the ABC,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...turbance-at-detention-centre-on-nauru/4832268

Could all this destabilise PNG politically ?

Their government may well be left thinking that it would have been better to take a leaf out of Tony Abbott's book when it comes to crawling into bed with Labor on asylum policy before this is through.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> More on the riot from the ABC,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...turbance-at-detention-centre-on-nauru/4832268
> 
> ...




Yes, if they have agreed to take asylum seekers carte blanche, 45,000 would sort them out.lol

Then PNG will be used as a stepping stone for Australian asylum, but it doesn't include a dangerous ocean voyage.

It is just another policy on the run, headline grabbing prank, he's a dick.

Much better to just stop the people leaving their homelands.


----------



## Knobby22 (19 July 2013)

Julia said:


> And that is exactly the purpose of Rudd's proposition.  Makes great sense and will probably tip the final balance his way.
> 
> He has been very clever indeed in pulling the rug out from Mr Abbott on both the carbon tax and now how to stop the boats.




I was a little shocked. Prime Minister Rudd is a consummate politician.
Mr Abbott will now really be rattled. His favourite saying "Stop the Boats" has now been neutralised.

If Rudd now wins the election he will go down as probably the greatest campaigner Australia has ever produced. Really impressive result after such a short time. His intelligence and drive can't be questioned.

I would however be very nervous about how well he governs over the next term, especially with the talent he has left on the front bench.

It also shows that Gillard really shouldn't have been Prime Minister.


----------



## Zedd (20 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> It appears Rudd is selling Labors principles for political gain.




I've not read the party manifesto but keeping out low skilled people who could potentially crowd out the hard-working blue collar workers of Australia seems to go to the core of the union/Labour movement, whereas Liberal ideology, in general, supports the free movement of labour across national boundaries, in an effort to discover the most efficient labour rate.


----------



## Aussiejeff (20 July 2013)

Of course, there's JUST NO WAY Kapitan KRudd would ever see this brilliant, new PNG Policy as a totally expedient means to an end (ie - to WIN the election - nothing more, nothing less) then do an amazing backflip sometime shortly AFTER the election if quite possibly (no, make that probably...100%) the :fan

No, he wouldn't dare take us all for chumps, would he..??? He's an honest politician, to be sure..


----------



## Tink (20 July 2013)

Rudd is a manipulative, ruthless, control freak that must win the election, it makes me wonder what was said in that party room when they took him back, that he has backflipped on everything, just prior to the election.

And we all know he is a man of his word -- NOT!!!   
That party is still toxic.


----------



## Julia (20 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Much better to just stop the people leaving their homelands.



How would you propose that could be done?


----------



## sails (20 July 2013)

Aussiejeff said:


> Of course, there's JUST NO WAY Kapitan KRudd would ever see this brilliant, new PNG Policy as a totally expedient means to an end (ie - to WIN the election - nothing more, nothing less) then do an amazing backflip sometime shortly AFTER the election if quite possibly (no, make that probably...100%) the :fan
> 
> No, he wouldn't dare take us all for chumps, would he..??? He's an honest politician, to be sure..




It would be real easy to backflip after the election as PNG could easily pull out. After all it seems Rudd has put all his eggs in one basket making a back flip easy, IMO. It seems little thought has been put into this rushed policy. 

At least the coalition have a proven system and have been consistent in their policy. They give me more confidence in actually managing our borders than labor with their history of stuff-ups and constant policy changes and rushed thought bubbles on this issue.


----------



## chiff (20 July 2013)

At this moment Rudd has won the race to the bottom.Political expediency on steroids.However TAs plan to treat Indonesia with disdain by turning back the boats has been gazumped.
I feel as if Muslim countries all over would have a suspicion that Australia is a quasi-NATO country at the bottom of Asia...never prepared to engage  properly with the region, in particular with our Indonesian neighbours. Surely  the world-wide refugee problem needs more than a partisan political response.
Are we up for it?


----------



## Calliope (20 July 2013)

sails said:


> It would be real easy to backflip after the election as PNG could easily pull out. After all it seems Rudd has put all his eggs in one basket making a back flip easy, IMO. It seems little thought has been put into this rushed policy.




After reading the morning papers it seems that there are doubts whether Rudd's policy will work. But you know what? It doesn't have to . All he needs to do is to sell the illusion that it will work, until the election is over, and he maybe on a winner.


----------



## sails (20 July 2013)

chiff said:


> At this moment Rudd has won the race to the bottom.Political expediency on steroids.However TAs plan to treat Indonesia with disdain by turning back the boats has been gazumped.
> I feel as if Muslim countries all over would have a suspicion that Australia is a quasi-NATO country at the bottom of Asia...never prepared to engage  properly with the region, in particular with our Indonesian neighbours. Surely  the world-wide refugee problem needs more than a partisan political response.
> Are we up for it?




Chiff - the Pacific Solution was never just about tuning back the boats. It is but one part of the solution which actually worked.

Why misrepresent it?


----------



## drsmith (20 July 2013)

Andrew Bolt has created a summery page of media commentary which poses some interesting questions,

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ldsun/comments/rudds_boat_deal_the_questions/

Something cooked up this quick lacks a lot of detail, including the hard limit on how many PNG will take, the speed at which Manus Island can be upgraded to take 3000 and of course the cost. The latter is obviously too scary to put a figure on or it hasn't even been worked out.

As an external solution, it at least has the virtue of being better than Malaysia in that any cap is much higher but at the same time, the current boat arrival problem is much larger. It is also brought to us by a political leader who created the problem in the first place, denounced this very approach, walked away from what he regarded as the greatest moral challenge of our time and now for a second time leads a political party that under no circumstances he would lead again. 

Put simply, no one in their right mind would trust him to deliver on this.


----------



## drsmith (20 July 2013)

From the PM who caused the problem in the first place,



From The Australian,



> The cost to the budget will be significant as the government outlines major spending commitments in PNG, only some of which can be funded from existing provisions for foreign aid.
> 
> Government sources said the new spending would be offset by savings measures "in due course" after Mr Rudd promised the new policy would be "budget neutral".
> 
> ...




"We are entirely mindful of earlier determinations by the Australian High Court."


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ine-png-solution/story-fn59niix-1226682289627


----------



## Chris45 (20 July 2013)

I would expect that if Rudd is re-elected, he'll probably then announce a doubling or tripling of the official refugee intake to appease the bleeding-heart left, so the end result for us will be the same and the "better life" seekers will continue to come on down to live on our welfare.

A new industry will be created in Indonesia coaching them in how to pass our refugee appraisal test and the only difference will be that instead of arriving on decrepit old boats, they'll be arriving in style on aircraft.

I just read, "Aiming to deflect some of the criticism of the harshness of the measures, Mr Rudd said Australia was a "compassionate nation" and the government would consider increasing its 27,000 annual humanitarian migration intake if there was a big fall in boat arrivals." There you go!


----------



## Julia (20 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> After reading the morning papers it seems that there are doubts whether Rudd's policy will work. But you know what? It doesn't have to . All he needs to do is to sell the illusion that it will work, until the election is over, and he maybe on a winner.



In their joint press conference, the two Prime Ministers all but said this.  They seem to be gambling on never actually having to implement the policy fully.  Presumably people from the next few boats will indeed be flown to PNG to confirm the announcement to make it look real, the boats will stop coming and the ruse will have worked.

Highly optimistic scenario imo.  It will be so interesting to see what happens now that the announcement has been made and the advertising of it begun.  At least a month before the election so we will have some idea of whether it has worked.




Chris45 said:


> I would expect that if Rudd is re-elected, he'll probably then announce a doubling or tripling of the official refugee intake to appease the bleeding-heart left, so the end result for us will be the same and the "better life" seekers will continue to come on down to live on our welfare.



If genuine refugees - the people proven to be so - who have been waiting years in squalid camps will get their turn to be resettled here, I'm all for increasing the humanitarian intake.  It's the arrogant people who can afford to pay people smugglers that need to be stopped.


----------



## drsmith (20 July 2013)

Fallout, day 1.



> Refugee processing has been halted on Nauru, where riots on Friday caused an estimated $60 million damage and left four asylum seekers in hospital.






> Most of the centre has been destroyed, with only the kitchen and recreation buildings standing. Accommodation blocks designed to hold up to 616 people were burned to the ground, as were office blocks. A dining room and health centre were also destroyed.






> According to a written order obtained by Fairfax Media, Nauru's acting Police Minister, David Adeang, has deputised a new "Nauru Police Force Reserve" to respond to the riots.
> 
> The force includes contractors from Australian company Transfield as well as ''all others deputised to respond.
> 
> On Friday women and children on Nauru were instructed by the government to lock their doors and stay inside until further notice. Men were told to present to the centre to be deputised as security guards.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...rges-after-60m-in-damages-20130720-2qavg.html

The Opposition's view,



> THE first 81 asylum seekers subject to Kevin Rudd's new PNG regime have entered detention on Christmas Island, as the Opposition said a Coalition government would keep elements of the hardline Labor policy.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ine-png-solution/story-fn59niix-1226682406568


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2013)

$60million damage on Nauru, apparently they could face one to seven years jail.  They would get citizenship after five.lol

Why wouldn't you just deport them?

http://www.watoday.com.au/federal-p...rges-after-60m-in-damages-20130720-2qavg.html


----------



## Chris45 (20 July 2013)

Julia said:


> If genuine refugees - the people proven to be so - who have been waiting years in squalid camps will get their turn to be resettled here, I'm all for increasing the humanitarian intake.  It's the arrogant people who can afford to pay people smugglers that need to be stopped.




I agree with the "arrogant people" part but what worries me is the $millions upon millions we're being forced to spend on this refugee problem with building detention centers, buying cooperation from neighbouring governments, welfare payments, etc.

Meanwhile our own elderly folk are suffering appalling neglect and mistreatment in our underfunded and overstretched aged-care system ... a system some of us here could well be dependent on in the not too distant future.

With the world population currently at seven billion, and still growing exponentially, what will the refugee situation be when there's 30-50% more people on the planet seeking better lives in compassionate developed countries like Australia?

If you give people an easy option, that's the one they'll most likely take.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Then PNG will be used as a stepping stone for Australian asylum, but it doesn't include a dangerous ocean voyage.
> 
> It is just another policy on the run, headline grabbing prank, he's a dick.
> 
> Much better to just stop the people leaving their homelands.




Well Queensland has worked it out. 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tion-in-brisbane/story-fnihsrf2-1226682403338

Extract.
KEVIN Rudd's plan to send refugees to Papua New Guinea will spark a wave of asylum seekers trying to reach Queensland, Premier Campbell Newman says.


----------



## sails (20 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well Queensland has worked it out.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tion-in-brisbane/story-fnihsrf2-1226682403338
> 
> ...




Did anyone expect this to be a well thought out policy?...lol

The coalition have had months to sort out their policy whereas Rudd's seems to be nothing short of hitting the panic buttons.


----------



## FlyingFox (20 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well Queensland has worked it out.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tion-in-brisbane/story-fnihsrf2-1226682403338
> 
> ...




Seriously I would imagine there would be a lot of filters in place to stop BS like that from getting to the public. More importantly I would imagine by natural selection, the majority of politicians shouldn't have made it thus far. I guess it is natural selection working  differently, we are so distracted by the BS coming out of their mouths that we keep voting for them despite the lack of any convincing policies. This goes for all sides of politics...

The wonders never cease to amaze...

- - - Updated - - -



sails said:


> Did anyone expect this to be a well thought out policy?...lol
> 
> The coalition have had months to sort out their policy whereas Rudd's seems to be nothing short of hitting the panic buttons.




Well thought out or not ... he has taken a stand, a hard one no doubt but a stand. Personally I don't see many other solutions to this.


----------



## sails (20 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> ...Well thought out or not ... he has taken a stand, a hard one no doubt but a stand. Personally I don't see many other solutions to this.




What took labor so long to realise that Rudd's 2007 policy of dismantling the Pacific Solution was a bad idea?  Why wait until 45,000 have arrived (of whom we now need to support for goodness how long) - and weeks before an election?...

That money could have been used for our own homeless, hospitals, aged, etc.

This rushed policy looks more like panic to me.

Commentators are saying Rudd was "Howard lite" in 2007 - now he has gone "Howard heavy".  So now labor are happy that Rudd has gone for something close to coalition policy?

Do labor have anything that they actually stand for other than desperation for power?


----------



## FlyingFox (20 July 2013)

sails said:


> What took labor so long to realise that Rudd's 2007 policy of dismantling the Pacific Solution was a bad idea?  Why wait until 45,000 have arrived (of whom we now need to support for goodness how long) - and weeks before an election?...
> 
> That money could have been used for our own homeless, hospitals, aged, etc.
> 
> ...




As per my comments above, it obvious that I don't hold any side of politics in high esteem. If it is not clear, I will reiterate, Labour and Liberals are pretty much the same. Neither of them have clear policy above what they deem to be popular with the voting public.

The dismantling of the policy was probably to placate the greens, this hard stand is because it maybe deemed to be popular with the public.

Anyways I doubt this is the end of this issue...


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> As per my comments above, it obvious that I don't hold any side of politics in high esteem. If it is not clear, I will reiterate, Labour and Liberals are pretty much the same. Neither of them have clear policy above what they deem to be popular with the voting public.
> 
> The dismantling of the policy was probably to placate the greens, this hard stand is because it maybe deemed to be popular with the public.
> 
> Anyways I doubt this is the end of this issue...




I think you have called that right, the next few weeks will be interesting, to say the least. 
My guess the proverbial will hit the fan, one way or another.


----------



## drsmith (20 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> As per my comments above, it obvious that I don't hold any side of politics in high esteem. If it is not clear, I will reiterate, Labour and Liberals are pretty much the same. Neither of them have clear policy above what they deem to be popular with the voting public.
> 
> The dismantling of the policy was probably to placate the greens, this hard stand is because it maybe deemed to be popular with the public.
> 
> Anyways I doubt this is the end of this issue...



One thing Labor has made clear over their past six years on office with their contradictory positions on a range of issues is that they stand purely for that office and little else.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> One thing Labor has made clear over their past six years on office with their contradictory positions on a range of issues is that they stand purely for that office and little else.




Yes doc, I think the Laborites have finally realised we weren't just being argumentative, when we kept saying Labor stand for nothing other than staying in office.

I think it requires three terms to get full benefits, a lot of them only have two.lol


----------



## Julia (20 July 2013)

Chris45 said:


> I agree with the "arrogant people" part but what worries me is the $millions upon millions we're being forced to spend on this refugee problem with building detention centers, buying cooperation from neighbouring governments, welfare payments, etc.
> 
> Meanwhile our own elderly folk are suffering appalling neglect and mistreatment in our underfunded and overstretched aged-care system ... a system some of us here could well be dependent on in the not too distant future.
> 
> ...



Chris, I'm in complete sympathy with your comments above, especially with regard to taking care of our own Australians, not just in the aged care system which absolutely does need massively greater funding, but also in caring for our mentally ill and disabled, and those who have paid all their lives into the tax system, but who are not being properly supported if they lose a job through no fault of their own.

That both sides of government can elect to completely ignore these areas of great disadvantage whilst providing accommodation, food, medical, dental, optical and psychological services, most of which are difficult to access for our own people, to people who are pushing their way in, is unbelievable.

I'd reserve a special measure of disdain for all those refugee advocates, who will do their utmost to attempt to scuttle this measure by Labor.
If they applied just a fraction of the empathy and sympathy to our own disadvantaged people that they so freely pour forth toward asylum seekers, that would be something.  I won't be holding my breath for that to happen.

And now we have millions of dollars of damage done to the Nauru facility by detainees.
That the government does not immediately deport those responsible is incomprehensible to me.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2013)

Julia said:


> Chris, I'm in complete sympathy with your comments above, especially with regard to taking care of our own Australians, not just in the aged care system which absolutely does need massively greater funding, but also in caring for our mentally ill and disabled, and those who have paid all their lives into the tax system, but who are not being properly supported if they lose a job through no fault of their own.
> 
> That both sides of government can elect to completely ignore these areas of great disadvantage whilst providing accommodation, food, medical, dental, optical and psychological services, most of which are difficult to access for our own people, to people who are pushing their way in, is unbelievable.
> 
> ...




What I find incomprehensible, is how labor supporters can reconcile Labor welfare cuts, while supporting an influx of 45,000 welfare recipients. Who they now say, they could have stopped, with the stroke of a pen.
Who the hell are Labor representing? Obviously not Australians.


----------



## FlyingFox (20 July 2013)

If this story is to be believed then measures are already working ...

http://www.news.com.au/national-new...-seekers-declare/story-fncynjr2-1226682491915


----------



## Knobby22 (20 July 2013)

You have to admit its better than the Liberal plan. It will stop the boats like a brick wall.

And saying its betraying Labor principles is a furphy. Gillard completely changed her tactics to pretty much match the Libs but ineffectively. So it is really a continuation of Labor policy. The Greens hate it but their votes will flow to Labor anyway.

Didn't make the front page on the Melbourne Herald Sun, instead they attacked Rudd on the car tax.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> If this story is to be believed then measures are already working ...
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national-new...-seekers-declare/story-fncynjr2-1226682491915




Well then, like I said, why wasn't it done before 45,000 people arrived here.
Obviously it could have been done at any time, Gillard talked to the PNG government, Rudd before her opened the gates.
To coin a phrase WTF is going on.
Why let it get to that stage before doing something, or is it just a vote grabbing excercise.


----------



## FlyingFox (20 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Well then, like I said, why wasn't it done before 45,000 people arrived here.
> Obviously it could have been done at any time, Gillard talked to the PNG government, Rudd before her opened the gates.
> To coin a phrase WTF is going on.
> Why let it get to that stage before doing something, or is it just a vote grabbing excercise.




Various reasons and I am sure they will be debated to no end.

But I gotta give it to Rudd, he has balls to at least try and make unpopular decisions. Mining tax cost him the position and I can imagine this won't be globally popular either and the FBT change.


----------



## Julia (21 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Various reasons and I am sure they will be debated to no end.
> 
> But I gotta give it to Rudd, he has balls to at least try and make unpopular decisions. Mining tax cost him the position and I can imagine this won't be globally popular either and the FBT change.



The mining tax was quite different.  He was thrashed on that at least partly because of his lack of consultation and the woeful design. 

  The whole principle of controlling who comes to Australia doesn't require consultation with the damn people smugglers or rioting asylum seekers:  it requires hard action.  Rudd has finally done this, obviously by giving bucketloads of money to PNG.

What is yet to be established is whether it is a real policy, actually intended to be carried out in full for all time, or a cunning ploy to get him through the election as a winner by having cut the ground from under the feet of the Opposition.  
If he gets through also his legislation to prevent the removal of a PM during the whole term of a government, he can do what he likes on being re-elected.  There are already rumblings about the potential pitfalls in his proposition, the Greens and refugee advocates will test it in court, and anyone who thinks the announcement on Friday heralds a trouble-free application of the policy is dreaming imo.

For all that, it's a brilliant tactic on both fronts of almost certainly stopping the boats, and, just as important, wiping out Tony Abbott's advantage in this area.

And when you describe it as an 'unpopular decision', I would question that.  It will only be unpopular with the Labor Left and the Greens.


----------



## Calliope (21 July 2013)

Mark Dreyfus on Meet the Press this morning said that PNG would take "unlimited numbers" of  asylum seekers from us. This is rubbish. No PM of a foreign country in his right mind would give such an undertaking unless Rudd offered "unlimited" and never-ending bribes. 

Scott Morrison said PNG PM Peter O'Neill said they would be looking to return some of the asylum seekers to us for resettlement.

Rudd just has to hope this doesn't blow up before the election. The PNG solution looks very shaky to me.


----------



## FlyingFox (21 July 2013)

Julia said:


> The mining tax was quite different.  He was thrashed on that at least partly because of his lack of consultation and the woeful design.




Perhaps...but consultation left us with empty coffers...For all the fuss that was raised about the mining tax, IMHO the only party that has come out worse off is the Australian government finances. Most of the promised investment that was to be stopped by the tax has been stopped anyway by market forces...



Julia said:


> The whole principle of controlling who comes to Australia doesn't require consultation with the damn people smugglers or rioting asylum seekers:  it requires hard action.  Rudd has finally done this, obviously by giving bucketloads of money to PNG.
> 
> What is yet to be established is whether it is a real policy, actually intended to be carried out in full for all time, or a cunning ploy to get him through the election as a winner by having cut the ground from under the feet of the Opposition.
> If he gets through also his legislation to prevent the removal of a PM during the whole term of a government, he can do what he likes on being re-elected.  There are already rumblings about the potential pitfalls in his proposition, the Greens and refugee advocates will test it in court, and anyone who thinks the announcement on Friday heralds a trouble-free application of the policy is dreaming imo.
> ...




It's amazing when both sides of politics are playing politics unlike when Gillard and Swannie were around and getting beaten over the head on everything. 

Real policy or not, all they need to do is resettle the first boatload that comes through and thus show that they will do it; it will stop people coming through, especially the "economic" refugees. 

Perhaps I should say its not a universally popular decision. Apart from the green and the left I am certain that this does not sit comfortably with a fair chunk of the population, perhaps because PNG is perhaps thought of as similar to the countries the refugees came from (far from the truth I know, I grew up in Fiji). However if the government can communicate this well, then it will be more of a popular decision. 

Now if he tells Holden to p*** off, might consider voting for him lol.


----------



## Chris45 (21 July 2013)

Pictures of the remains of the Nauru immigration detention centre:
http://www.news.com.au/national-new...u-detention-riot/story-fncynjr2-1226682456715

STOP building expensive air conditioned accommodation blocks and recreational facilities for these people! How many more times do we have to see this stupid senseless destruction before we say "ENOUGH"!

Tents on timber platforms with cheap pedestal fans is all they need, and if they destroy them because we don't jump when they snap their fingers demanding entry, replace the tents with simple sheets of plastic.


----------



## Julia (21 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Perhaps...but consultation left us with empty coffers...



Yes, it has.  But whose fault is that?  If the government left the design of the tax MK II to the mining companies, what did they expect?



> It's amazing when both sides of politics are playing politics unlike when Gillard and Swannie were around and getting beaten over the head on everything.



Sure.  As (I think) Knobby observed, Rudd is the consummate politician.  He has had three years to plan his comeback and has clearly spent the time productively.



> Real policy or not, all they need to do is resettle the first boatload that comes through and thus show that they will do it; it will stop people coming through, especially the "economic" refugees.



Yes, or the first half dozen.  That's fairly clearly what they're counting on.   Hard to imagine how they would accommodate the current numbers in available accommodation on PNG.



Chris45 said:


> STOP building expensive air conditioned accommodation blocks and recreational facilities for these people! How many more times do we have to see this stupid senseless destruction before we say "ENOUGH"!
> 
> Tents on timber platforms with cheap pedestal fans is all they need, and if they destroy them because we don't jump when they snap their fingers demanding entry, replace the tents with simple sheets of plastic.



And charge the people responsible, then deport them.

What are people's impressions of Tony Burke's performance so far in Immigration?  I think he's doing well.
He actually gives real answers to questions and seems able to strike a balance between delivering hardline policy and making the connection between this and the long overdue compassion for refugees waiting in camps.


----------



## drsmith (21 July 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Real policy or not, all they need to do is resettle the first boatload that comes through and thus show that they will do it; it will stop people coming through, especially the "economic" refugees.



If the people smugglers follow Australian politics as part of their market research, they will realise that Kevin Rudd's so-called PNG policy is an absolute repudiation of Labor's ideological position and directly of Kevin Rudd's ideological position. They themselves might decide to temporarily back off during the upcoming domestic election campaign.

Resettling that first boatload was the first hurdle Julia Gillard's Malaysian solution failed to clear. 

While Kevin Rudd's PNG solution sounds good in principal, it's rushed and will no doubt run into issues as Labor's other rushed policies have. One of these issues is the cost. Labor either haven't worked it out, are too frightened to say or most likely, both. Logistics could well be in a similar situation. Manus Island will not be able to accommodate 600 before January 2014, let alone 3000.

There's also not enough in the way of domestic policy adjustment to deter arrivals by boat. For these reasons, I feel it is just another Labor short term political fix.


----------



## drsmith (21 July 2013)

Knobby22 said:


> You have to admit its better than the Liberal plan. It will stop the boats like a brick wall.
> 
> And saying its betraying Labor principles is a furphy. Gillard completely changed her tactics to pretty much match the Libs but ineffectively. So it is really a continuation of Labor policy. The Greens hate it but their votes will flow to Labor anyway.
> 
> Didn't make the front page on the Melbourne Herald Sun, instead they attacked Rudd on the car tax.



In relation to Labor's principals, it was Kevin Rudd that changed the Howard Government's border protection laws. While Julia Gillard made matters worse through her alliance with the Greens, it was Kevin Rudd's initial policy changes that restarted the boat problem.

The problem with Labor's car tax changes is not the principal in modification in this area, but their rushed nature and lack of consultation. It's similar to their live cattle export suspension to Indonesia under Julia Gillard. Labor does not consider at all the wider economic implications at all when this is at odds with their short term political objectives. In that context of governing, they have no principals.


----------



## drsmith (21 July 2013)

Does Labor's bold new PNG asylum policy require legislation ?



> Mr Carr has declared a re-elected Labor government would be prepared to legislate its new asylum-seeker solution in preparation for a possible High Court challenge.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ylum-seeker-deal/story-fn59nqld-1226682721212

??


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Does Labor's bold new PNG asylum policy require legislation ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well I can't see how they can say 'all' will be sent to PNG, when facilities aren't available to house them. eek

It sounds like pi$$ and wind to me but no doubt,explod and syd will be able to explain it. 

I would say the influx will increase, to sink this policy, how does that 'float your boat'.lol


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2013)

As I thought, it looks like captain chaos is back, half baked half ar$ed policy on the run.IMO

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...er-deal-with-png/story-fnho52jo-1226682806472

Might be wrong, but it sounds like swiss cheese.lol


----------



## Calliope (22 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> As I thought, it looks like captain chaos is back, half baked half ar$ed policy on the run.IMO




Downer has a better, simpler solution;



> The Howard government minister says while the Papua New Guinea solution "is better than the nothing it replaces", it would have been better for the deal to have been done with Indonesia.
> 
> "The simplest deal of all would be to agree with the Indonesians that we will fly back every single person who arrives here by boat from their country," Mr Downer said on Monday in his column in The Advertiser.
> 
> "In exchange, we will accept on a one-for-one basis UN approved refugees in Indonesia."




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...isky-says-downer/story-fni0xqi4-1226682991554


----------



## drsmith (22 July 2013)

You know it's in trouble when the ABC starts turning negative,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...eker-plan-will-add-to-png27s-problems/4834718


----------



## noco (22 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> You know it's in trouble when the ABC starts turning negative,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...eker-plan-will-add-to-png27s-problems/4834718




It is another Labor Party mess in the making.

PNG will not take those without refugee status and that will also be limited to about 300.

No women and children will be sent to Manus so where will they go?

PNG will most likely not accept Muslims as they are Christian country.

But nevertheless they are happy to accept the $ carrot  dangled in front of them and in the meantime Rudd thinks he can gain votes at tax payers expense.

WHAT A JERK HE IS.!!!!!!!!!!



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...es-left-in-limbo/story-fn9hm1gu-1226682842434


----------



## drsmith (22 July 2013)

9 boats carrying 890 passengers to the week ending Friday July 19. This compares to no boats for the same period last year.

The two additional boats carrying 98 passengers that have arrived over the weekend are after the cut-off date for the so-called PNG solution.



> 19/07/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 18/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 18/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 16/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


----------



## banco (22 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Downer has a better, simpler solution;
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...isky-says-downer/story-fni0xqi4-1226682991554




The Indonesians don't seem to be overly concerned with the number of wanna be refugees in the country so why would they sign up to that?


----------



## Calliope (22 July 2013)

banco said:


> The Indonesians don't seem to be overly concerned with the number of wanna be refugees in the country so why would they sign up to that?




I've no idea. You would have to ask them.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2013)

banco said:


> The Indonesians don't seem to be overly concerned with the number of wanna be refugees in the country so why would they sign up to that?




They wouldn't sign up to that, they're not stupid, we are.

From Indonesias point of view, the asylum seeker lands, pays for a temporary visa.

Then they spend money in Indonesia, untill a boat is available, to Australia.

The only way they would change their position, is if Australia paid them a lot of money, to compensate them.

The only other option is to tell Indonesia, we will not accept Indonesian flagged boats, violating our waters and soveriegnty, for financial gain.

In other words sod off, this is our country.

Rudd goes over there and gets Bam Bang to say, "don't tell us to sod off". 
What the hell is going on.

How the hell, can that be seen, as in the best interest of Australia. Indonesias 'bitch' (sorry)


----------



## drsmith (23 July 2013)

If the following is right, the people smugglers will be testing the waters on Kev's PNG solution,



> PEOPLE smugglers appear to be testing Kevin Rudd's new PNG solution, with concerns there could be as many as 10 boats on their way amid revelations the cost of the first year of operation of an expanded Manus Island camp could exceed $1 billion.




The cracks with who they are and are not going to send to PNG in the immediate future at least are starting to appear,



> Four boats carrying more than 250 people have arrived since Friday, but only single adult men can be sent to PNG immediately, with families to remain in Australia until facilities are ready, which could take until next year.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ellhole-solution/story-e6frg6n6-1226683421329


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> If the following is right, the people smugglers will be testing the waters on Kev's PNG solution,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well blind freddy, would have thought the best way to bust it, was to test it.lol
Captain bloody chaos back at the wheel, throwing candy bars overboard.


----------



## Country Lad (23 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ellhole-solution/story-e6frg6n6-1226683421329




Interesting comment in the article.



> The expected influx comes as a vessel overdue at Christmas Island was found by Australian rescuers with 30 passengers safe and well.




I can visualise a screen in the asylum seekers arrivals hall at Christmas Island listing the departure and arrival times of the various boats and this one noting "overdue" in the arrival time.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Calliope (23 July 2013)

Country Lad said:


> Interesting comment in the article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes it will show ARRIVALS, OVERDUE but no DEPARTURES. I think that Rudd smoke and mirrors "tough" policy will see an immediate boost in arrivals. A few more boatloads will bury the Manus solution, and a defeated Rudd will say "well it seemed like a good idea at the time".


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2013)

Country Lad said:


> Interesting comment in the article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's a classic Country Lad, maybe they could have an on screen map showing the location of the various vessels on the way.
Then the Navy and customs wouldn't have to search, they could sit and watch the screen.


----------



## drsmith (23 July 2013)

The following, if genuine, is very interesting,

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ts-almost-100-laptopipad-owners.html#comments


----------



## Julia (23 July 2013)

The link goes to Michael's conversation with Sharon where she describes the laptop bags the passengers are carrying and their designer clothing but I can't see a link to the actual photos they're all so excited about.
Can you help with this, drsmith?  I'm now curious to know what is so dramatic that one of the following posts asserts these photos have just won Tony Abbott the election.


----------



## sails (23 July 2013)

Julia said:


> The link goes to Michael's conversation with Sharon where she describes the laptop bags the passengers are carrying and their designer clothing but I can't see a link to the actual photos they're all so excited about.
> Can you help with this, drsmith?  I'm now curious to know what is so dramatic that one of the following posts asserts these photos have just won Tony Abbott the election.




Julia - try this link: http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...stmas-island-cenotaph-on-anzac-day-2013-.html

Maybe an overly exuberant poster made that remark?  But then I have only skimmed some of it so might have missed something. 

The thing I find frustrating is that labor have obviously known for a long time that most of the arrivals were not genuine refugees fleeing persecution and yet they have let this continue at massive cost to the taxpayer for nearly six years before pulling this rushed PNG stunt just before an election.  How any thinking Aussie could trust them for another term is beyond me!


----------



## pixel (23 July 2013)

sails said:


> How any thinking Aussie could trust them for another term is beyond me!




You mean *RIGHT* thinking Aussie, don't you.
I reckon there are lots of LEFT thinking ones that don't like the unholy Abbot-Bishop alliance either.


----------



## drsmith (23 July 2013)

Julia said:


> The link goes to Michael's conversation with Sharon where she describes the laptop bags the passengers are carrying and their designer clothing but I can't see a link to the actual photos they're all so excited about.
> Can you help with this, drsmith?  I'm now curious to know what is so dramatic that one of the following posts asserts these photos have just won Tony Abbott the election.



The photos are on another of Michael's posts.

The main thing is that it would appear the boats are still coming thick and fast with three arriving today at the port carrying about 70 each. The extent to which these are previous boats announced over the weekend remains to be seen, but only one of those was around that number with the other two much less. 

The arrival announcements on Jason Clare's Home Affairs site can be a few days late as noted last week.


----------



## sails (23 July 2013)

pixel said:


> You mean *RIGHT* thinking Aussie, don't you.
> I reckon there are lots of LEFT thinking ones that don't like the unholy Abbot-Bishop alliance either.




Rudd has shown his lack of management skills for nearly three years with so many debacles including budget blow-outs and opening the borders which unbelievably  created the very problem he is now trying to fix at massive expense.

  Abbott and Bishop haven't had their go yet so it's not time to write them off yet!!  At least the coalition have a good track record at balancing the budget and securing our borders.


----------



## drsmith (23 July 2013)

I wouldn't expect Kev's PNG solution to fall over by some sudden revelation or event.

It will more likely be death by a series of stumbles.


----------



## sails (23 July 2013)

Whistleblower claims asylum seekers in Manus Island centre have been raped and abused with full knowledge of staff




> Mr St George has described repeated instances of sexual abuse between asylum seekers in the single male compound.
> 
> He says victims are knowingly left in the same compound as their abusers because there are no facilities to separate them.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-23/whistleblower-claims-manus-island-detainees-raped/4839198


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2013)

sails said:


> Whistleblower claims asylum seekers in Manus Island centre have been raped and abused with full knowledge of staff
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What amazes me is Labor has encouraged the influx of these people. Rather than promote the orderly immigration of genuine people.
One has to wonder if there wasn't some ulterior motive. 
When they can do 180 deg backflip, a month out from an election and do what they said was morally repulsive.


----------



## Calliope (24 July 2013)

I don't think Rudd will be sending anyone to Manus anytime soon. These thugs can burn the facilities faster then we can erect them. The illegals are arriving much faster than we can ever accommodate them at Manus. As for turning a blind eye homosexual assaults... homosexuality is a crime in PNG as is rape.

The Manus scheme is going nowhere. 



> Department of Immigration staff turned a blind eye to a series of rapes and assaults at the Manus Island detention centre, a whistleblower has claimed.
> 
> *The startling allegations, broadcast on SBS TV’s Dateline program on Tuesday night, also include claims that detainees have been stockpiling weapons and are “quite open that there will come a time where they will break out and people will be killed”.*
> 
> ...


----------



## drsmith (24 July 2013)

Indonesia and PNG don't mind stepping in to our domestic politics, especially when there's a pot of Australian taxpayer's money at stake.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...tion-to-stop-misrepresenting-aid-deal/4841552

Nothing new on Jason Clare's Home affairs site since the weekend, but according to Michael Smith's site (Sharon), two boats have been escorted into Christmas Island today, one estimated to be carrying 100 to 150 and the other around 80.

The latest Maritime Safety Information current at 240700 UTC JUL 13 as listed on Michael Smith's site also makes for sobering reading,



> A WOODEN ASYLUM SEEKER VESSEL WITH 70 POB HAS BEEN REPORTED TAKING ON WATER IN POSITION 09-08.38S 106-02.30E AT 240400UTC
> 
> SRI LANKAN FISHING VESSEL SAVIN PUTHA WITH 65 POB REPORTED DISABLED AND ADRIFT IN POSITION 04-40N 084-40E AT 231105 UTC.
> 
> ...




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...rent-distress-1610-eastern-standard-time.html


----------



## sails (24 July 2013)

*Manus camp cleared out for Rudd plan*




> All asylum seekers on Manus Island are being brought to the Australian mainland or Christmas Island to enable the remote detention centre to be used exclusively for those subject to Kevin Rudd's hardline "
> 
> Officials believe it would be a recipe for trouble if the Manus Island centre had two classes of detainees - those who may have a chance of being resettled in Australia and those who do not.
> 
> As of yesterday, there were 130 single male asylum seekers at Manus Island, down from more than 200 a week ago. They are expected to be brought to Australia within the next few days.




Read more: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/18123523/manus-camp-cleared-out-for-rudd-plan/


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Indonesia and PNG don't mind stepping in to our domestic politics, especially when there's a pot of Australian taxpayer's money at stake.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...tion-to-stop-misrepresenting-aid-deal/4841552




Seems like we are bribing all our nieghbors, fistfull of dollars to Indonesia, for Bam Bang to say don't turn back the boats.
Now a bucket load of dollars, to allow Rudd to use PNG, in his the advertising campaign.


----------



## drsmith (24 July 2013)

sails said:


> *Manus camp cleared out for Rudd plan*
> 
> Read more: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/18123523/manus-camp-cleared-out-for-rudd-plan/




That'd be right. 

From the above article,



> Mr Abbott said that if the Prime Minister was serious about intimidating people smugglers, asylum seekers should be sent to Manus within 24 to 48 hours of arrival.




We know what message transferring them the other way will send.


----------



## drsmith (24 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> 9 boats carrying 890 passengers to the week ending Friday July 19. This compares to no boats for the same period last year.
> 
> The two additional boats carrying 98 passengers that have arrived over the weekend are after the cut-off date for the so-called PNG solution.
> 
> ...




Customs and Border Protection are now doing the media releases on boat arrivals,



> 24 July 2013 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 23 July 2013 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 22 July 2013 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 22 July 2013 Border Protection Command intercepts vessel




That's 250 more since the beginning of the week.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Customs and Border Protection are now doing the media releases on boat arrivals,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well it won't be long before the people smugglers, overload the PNG solution.


----------



## Calliope (25 July 2013)

Would you trust either of these two guys to keep his word? I'd say their "agreement" is not worth the paper it is written on. The only thing they have agreed on is to sign it.


----------



## sptrawler (25 July 2013)

The only viable solution, is to stop asylum seekers from attempting the journey.
If they feel there is any chance of being under the Australian welfare umbrella, wether that is PNG, Narua or anywhere else. They will keep coming, they know that our asylum seeker legal advocate system, will get them residency, it just takes time.

Turning back the boats, so there is little chance of actually arriving and then losing their money. 
This will soon have the asylum seekers refusing to pay before they are safely delivered. The people smugglers will soon lose interest in that plan.


----------



## sails (25 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Would you trust either of these two guys to keep his word? I'd say their "agreement" is not worth the paper it is written on. The only thing they have agreed on is to sign it.
> 
> View attachment 53550




I understand it was only  an arrangement.... Worth even less of the paper it was written on!


----------



## basilio (25 July 2013)

Another perspective on African migrants coming to Australia

Check out the ABC documentary called* Growing up and going home*. Worth remembering that we are talking about people like us rather than boogy men. (IMO)

On Iview for a month


----------



## Calliope (25 July 2013)

sails said:


> I understand it was only  an arrangement.... Worth even less of the paper it was written on!




I stand corrected. But the impressive folder which they are holding might be worth a few bucks. A plain manila folder would have been more apt.


----------



## nioka (25 July 2013)

Worth a listen.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq_lhlIn1e0

(brand new leather jacket) Direct from the UK.


----------



## Calliope (25 July 2013)

nioka said:


> Worth a listen.
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq_lhlIn1e0
> 
> (brand new leather jacket) Direct from the UK.




It is well worth a listen. But it raises the question as to why the loony-left, Greens, do-gooders and bleeding hearts want to inflict this same scourge on us as the UK suffers, by advocating welcoming the Muslim illegal immigrants. I would welcome an answer as I am completely baffled. :dunno: 

They will say they are fleeing persecution...which is just bullsh!t.


----------



## Julia (25 July 2013)

nioka said:


> Worth a listen.
> Direct from the UK.



Thanks Nioka.  (and good to hear from you again.)
Whilst perhaps employing a little hyperbole, the essential message in that video also describes what is already happening here.  

We have tens of thousands or more of Australians, many of whom have contributed to the tax coffers during their working lives, homeless, whether because of mental or physical illness, job loss through no fault of their own, or organic disadvantage, homeless and unable to access the services they so badly need, while those who can pay people smugglers burn down new air conditioned, ensuited accommodation which they disdain.

The Greens and the Labor Left talk with misty eyes about having compassion.  Fine.  Let's have some compassion for the people who have been languishing in UNHCR camps for many years, proven refugees, devoid of the latest model laptops and designer clothing so freely exhibited by many of the boat arrivals.

I have never once seen a single explanation from anyone in the above political groups regarding why the 'compassion' should be so reserved for people who are wealthy enough to fly to Indonesia, then pay thousands to people smugglers to seek the privileged life in Australia.

How is it possible that they can so ignore the plight of so many Australian people who so need our help?


----------



## sptrawler (25 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> It is well worth a listen. But it raises the question as to why the loony-left, Greens, do-gooders and bleeding hearts want to inflict this same scourge on us as the UK suffers, by advocating welcoming the Muslim illegal immigrants. I would welcome an answer as I am completely baffled. :dunno:
> 
> They will say they are fleeing persecution...which is just bullsh!t.




That clip is years old, the influx into the U.K has been going on for years, all countries with a robust welfare system are being inundated.

People are not asylum seekers when they transit through another country, such as Indonesia.
They can stay there, however Indonesia just charges them for an intransit visa, untill they can source a people smuggler.
How Rudd can go to Indonesia and kiss ar$e, to have Bam Bang tell us not to turn back the boats, is unbelievable.


----------



## IFocus (26 July 2013)

I think Abbott's plan or new plan (seems the old one didn't / wouldn't work) of having his own private general outside of the military chain of command a sheer master stroke.

Of course the new general would need his own spy agency etc (minor detail) I think it appropriate that they goose step in any major parades.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> I think Abbott's plan or new plan (seems the old one didn't / wouldn't work) of having his own private general outside of the military chain of command a sheer master stroke.
> 
> Of course the new general would need his own spy agency etc (minor detail) I think it appropriate that they goose step in any major parades.




Or we can do as your mate Kev wants and have Indonesia run our Military. 
Like the other month when they had our naval vessel enter Indonesian waters to pick up a boat 40k's of their coast.


----------



## sails (26 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> I think Abbott's plan or new plan (seems the old one didn't / wouldn't work) of having his own private general outside of the military chain of command a sheer master stroke.
> 
> Of course the new general would need his own spy agency etc (minor detail) I think it appropriate that they goose step in any major parades.




Don't forget this is a mess Rudd created with his crazy policy of abolishing the successful Pacific Solution. And now you mock efforts by the coalition to fix Rudd's mess?  The coalition handed over secure borders to labor in 2007 and looks like they will be handed a right royal mess of debt, thousands of arrivals and the sheer debacle of carbon tax. 

How you can mock the opposition when your side caused these massive problems which now need fixing is unbelievable!!!


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2013)

A count of boat arrival media releases from the Customs and Jason Clare's Home affairs site reveals there are now 775 arrivals from 11 boats now subject to Kevin Rudd's new PNG arrangement.

This again illustrates that a government that doesn't have it's heart in what it's doing is no match for the people smugglers.


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2013)

Poor Richo is hoping the people smugglers run out of knives before they run out of boats.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-risky-brilliant/story-fnfenwor-1226685228691


----------



## Calliope (26 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> A count of boat arrival media releases from the Customs and Jason Clare's Home affairs site reveals there are now 775 arrivals from 11 boats now subject to Kevin Rudd's new PNG arrangement.
> 
> This again illustrates that a government that doesn't have it's heart in what it's doing is no match for the people smugglers.




Rudd has given Tony Burke the worst job in Australia as a payback for his past sins against Rudd. He hasn't got a clue what he is doing or who will be sent to Manus.

What we do know is that women and children and families won't go there until there are "permanent" facilities. (two years away?) He says the new arrivals can't be sent there until they have been screened for security, disease and illness. So do we get to keep in Australia those who fail this screening, and where?

And to think that there are some clowns on this thread who along with Rudd are rubbishing Abbott's proposal.:screwy:

Perhaps IFocus can tell us how Rudd is going to put the wheels back on his crazy ill-thought-out scheme that he plucked out of thin air.

We always knew that a massive bribe was the best way to get us out of this mess, but it would have made more sense to bribe the Indonesians than O'Neill. They could easily stop the illegals from getting transit visas. Without visas the illegals would have no alternative but to return home on the next flight.


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> We always knew that a massive bribe was the best way to get us out of this mess, but it would have made more sense to bribe the Indonesians than O'Neill. They could easily stop the illegals from getting transit visas. Without visas the illegals would have no alternative but to return home on the next flight.




It would seem the Indonesians were in the dark on this particular policy.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-rang-him-yesterday-about-the-regional-p.html

We are all in the dark on the cost. Richo from the above article in The Australian,



> That is the environment into which we will dump thousands of asylum-seekers with 50 police to help maintain order. It will be far more costly than anyone could believe in the beginning.


----------



## Julia (26 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Perhaps IFocus can tell us how Rudd is going to put the wheels back on his crazy ill-thought-out scheme that he plucked out of thin air.



Or anyone else who has rubbished the Coalition's plans for control of our borders, even - incredibly - though they have already demonstrated how to do it.



> We always knew that a massive bribe was the best way to get us out of this mess, but it would have made more sense to bribe the Indonesians than O'Neill. They could easily stop the illegals from getting transit visas. Without visas the illegals would have no alternative but to return home on the next flight.



Agree.  Now they are offended (again) and it will take an even bigger bucket of money to mollify them.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> We always knew that a massive bribe was the best way to get us out of this mess, but it would have made more sense to bribe the Indonesians than O'Neill. They could easily stop the illegals from getting transit visas. Without visas the illegals would have no alternative but to return home on the next flight.




Who says Labor want to stop it? Maybe they just want to be percieved as trying to stop it.

There has been no determined effort over the past six years to stop, or even reduce the flow, by Labor. 
There has been token gestures, to appease the public.
However the flow has steady increased, to the point where it was hardly being reported, just look at drsmiths reports. 
Prior to Rudd springing out of the box, the boat arrivals were hardly getting airplay in the mainstream press, unless there was a fatality. 

It appears a bit convenient and somewhat coincidental that, this latest jesture is on the cusp of an election. Also if it does get challenged, it can be dropped as another,"oh well we tried".
The current plan IMO, is about winning an election, then back flip on the policy due to U.N or legal reasons. 
Could be Kev playing 'rope the dope' with the Australian public? 
Let's not forget, they have lifted the legal intake of refugees to 27,000/annum add another 40 - 50,000 asylum seekers and you are moving the population along nicely.

I don't believe for one minute Labor is trying to stop the influx, just my opinion.


----------



## sails (26 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Who says Labor want to stop it? Maybe they just want to be percieved as trying to stop it.
> 
> There has been no determined effort over the past six years to stop, or even reduce the flow, by Labor.
> There has been token gestures, to appease the public.
> ...




Sptrawler, I agree with you.  It looks like this was just to get votes - if labor win the election, they will probably say it didn't work and be back in favour with the greens again.

However, it looks like it's going to fall apart long before the election so hopefully voters will see it as the vote grab that it possibly is and with no real substance.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

sails said:


> Sptrawler, I agree with you.  It looks like this was just to get votes - if labor win the election, they will probably say it didn't work and be back in favour with the greens again.
> 
> However, it looks like it's going to fall apart long before the election so hopefully voters will see it as the vote grab that it possibly is and with no real substance.




Yes, it was thrown together policy, the only problem Labor seems to have with the old policy, was the deaths at sea. Nobody wants to see that happening.

But I'm suprised Rudd didn't do a deal with BamBang.


----------



## IFocus (26 July 2013)

Fascinating Abbott proposes a change from a civilian operation to a military one outside of the established chain of command.......never been done before.......ever, you guys just keep ranting.


Anyone wish to comment on its merits.


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2013)

Where I earlier had 775 since the new PNG arrangement, The Australian has the count at 816. Another 68 have since been intercepted taking the count close to 900.


----------



## noco (26 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Where I earlier had 775 since the new PNG arrangement, The Australian has the count at 816. Another 68 have since been intercepted taking the count close to 900.




Yes Doc, it is getting worse by the hour and not by the day.

Show pony Rudd is just after votes and the voters have seen through his cunning scheme thank goodness.

Can't wait to see the next poll.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ts/one_week_on_as_many_boat_arrivals_as_ever/

- - - Updated - - -



IFocus said:


> Fascinating Abbott proposes a change from a civilian operation to a military one outside of the established chain of command.......never been done before.......ever, you guys just keep ranting.
> 
> 
> Anyone wish to comment on its merits.




Guess you will have egg on your face if it works.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> Fascinating Abbott proposes a change from a civilian operation to a military one outside of the established chain of command.......never been done before.......ever, you guys just keep ranting.
> 
> 
> Anyone wish to comment on its merits.




Firstly, we really have only being commenting on the governments policy, probably because theirs is the only one that can and is enacted. So to spend a lot of time on Abotts shots from the sideline, is somewhat pointless.

However if you wish to discuss it, or as you say, rant it. Here I go.lol

So don't you think the severity of the situation requires a dedicated response, rather than the half ar$ed hotch potch we have currently. 
Currently they have the Navy, customs, private sector, water police and fishermen picking up asylum seekers.

The issue probably requires a focused response, that has direct control of all the resources. They will be taking direct action protecting our border, on behalf of the government, therefore it will have to be a sector of the armed forces.

However, I would think it would require the leasing of several vessels and prossibly a couple of AWAC planes.
The action being taken will be extremely sensitive and the less levels of command between the government and the personnel carrying out the directives, the better.

Too often the instruction becomes changed or modified as it is passed up or down the chain of command.
Therefore having the person in charge answering directly to the government, would seem prudent, as there could be a very sensitive diplomatic situation that requires an immediate answer. 

Not I will get back to you when I get in touch with the No1, who will then get in touch with No2, who will get back to you when No3 returns to the office. By the way, what was the person asking?

It would be a recipe for a disaster, to have the position slotted into the Navy's chain of command IMO and we have enough historical info to know the buck passing covers the decission trail. 

What's your take IFocus.


----------



## Zedd (26 July 2013)

sails said:


> Don't forget this is a mess Rudd created with his crazy policy of abolishing the successful Pacific Solution. ... The coalition handed over secure borders to labor in 2007 and looks like they will be handed a right royal mess of ... thousands of arrivals...




I'll put my neck out and say that I for one was for abolishing offshore processing, and the aggressive policies in place during the Howard years as I felt it went against the Australian identity and felt it was a stain on our national character.

As a nation we believe in innocent until proven guilty, we believe in a social safety net to help a man back on his feet, we believe in sheltering the abused, we believe in free education, and healthcare for the sick. We're a nation largely built on migrants, a significant amount immigrating from a horrible situation - war, sickness, famine, oppression - to establish through hardwork a better life in Australia for themselves, their families, and their descendants. 

In the same way that our justice system would rather let 100 guilty men go free than lock up a single innocent man, I always felt that it was better to accept 100 illegal immigrants, then to turn away a single genuine refugee in need. 

When Rudd came in, along with strong calls from the Greens (and the Liberal Left IMO) I believe there was a genuine attempt to live up to these ideals and I for one am proud that we as a nation made an attempt to achieve these lofty goals.

It's pretty obvious it hasn't worked, and the numbers of those who have drowned along the way is a consequence of that attempt. I still don't think it was naive to think a better solution was/is possible. 

The amount of vitriol thrown around on this topic is offensive and embarrassing to our nation and if people stopped acting like our 20 million + population was about to be drowned by several thousand immigrants over a few years perhaps we could have some clearer discussions on the issue. 

The best thing Howard did to prevent economic migrants was to improve trade and industry in SE Asia. He once made a great statement in rebutting criticism of not raising foreign aid, and pointed out that the increase in living standards through GDP growth in SE Asia was far greater than anything we could have hoped to achieve with charity. It's this type of discussion we need to be having, not a race to the bottom, threatening to detain people indefinitely, in the worst possible conditions we're legally able to.


----------



## sails (26 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> I'll put my neck out and say that I for one was for abolishing offshore processing, and the aggressive policies in place during the Howard years as I felt it went against the Australian identity and felt it was a stain on our national character.
> 
> As a nation we believe in innocent until proven guilty, we believe in a social safety net to help a man back on his feet, we believe in sheltering the abused, we believe in free education, and healthcare for the sick. We're a nation largely built on migrants, a significant amount immigrating from a horrible situation - war, sickness, famine, oppression - to establish through hardwork a better life in Australia for themselves, their families, and their descendants.
> 
> ...




I would much rather the economic refugee arrivals were stopped but instead we take in the GENUINE refugees.  That's what I don't understand with people like yourself who want onshore processing when so many of those are, by labor's own admission, not genuine refugees.

Don't you think we would be doing far more good for humanity if our refugee aid was helping those who are genuine refugees, destitute and cannot afford smuggler's fees?

This guy hardly looks destitute:







More photos here: http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...e-an-appreciation-of-a-certain-demeanour.html

and this:






More photos here: http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...y-when-she-saw-a-man-fleeing-from-persec.html


----------



## Zedd (26 July 2013)

sails said:


> I would much rather the economic refugee arrivals were stopped but instead we take in the GENUINE refugees.
> 
> ...
> 
> Don't you think we would be doing far more good for humanity if our refugee aid was helping those who are genuine refugees, destitute and cannot afford smuggler's fees?




I think you missed my point, as well as my admission that the current system is not working.
What part of my post disagreed with the above?



sails said:


> That's what I don't understand with people like yourself who want onshore processing when so many of those are, by labor's own admission, not genuine refugees.




Can you explain how you think onshore processing vs offshore processing achieves the goal?
It's a race to the bottom, trying to make the conditions as intolerable as possible to encourage people to ask to be taken back to where they came from. That's not a solution. That's a disgrace. 

How about we take that same tack with public health and education, or our justice system - make the publicly funded system so useless, pointless and degrading so no one uses it. That'd save billions in public expenditure! 

Advance Australia Fair!


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> I think you missed my point, as well as my admission that the current system is not working.
> What part of my post disagreed with the above?
> 
> 
> ...




The problem we have is there are two avenues, to seek asylum, the correct official way and the fast track way.

That leads to problem number two, the fast track way gets bogged down with people who have money trying to get to the front. Also people recieving the money increasing the cost, as the scheme becomes more popular.

Then that leads to corruption, as the people who are facilitating the process, want a cut of the money.

Then there is us at the end of the tube recieving these poor hard done by individuals.


----------



## pixel (26 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Then there is us at the end of the tube recieving these poor hard done by individuals.




And there lies the entire problem:
If we receive the queue jumpers ahead of the genuine, patient sufferers, we reward corruption at Billions of costs.
I'm sure the genuine refugees don't mind being resettled in PNG or anywhere away from the land they're forced to flee. They won't try to hold us to ransom by demanding "Australia or nothing" and threatening self-harm if they don't get their will. And that, my friends, is neither Australian nor Fair. It's disgusting!


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> When Rudd came in, along with strong calls from the Greens (and the Liberal Left IMO) I believe there was a genuine attempt to live up to these ideals and I for one am proud that we as a nation made an attempt to achieve these lofty goals.
> 
> It's pretty obvious it hasn't worked, and the numbers of those who have drowned along the way is a consequence of that attempt. I still don't think it was naive to think a better solution was/is possible.



With such a small population and only 2% of the world's economy, it is always folly to think we can solve the world's problems.

Immigration should be considered like everything else in a competitive world. It's a question of first how we use it to build our nation and any humanitarian objective second.

in trying to be humane as an ideology at the expense of our nation, Labor has only been humane to the sharks of the eastern Indian Ocean and our nation has been taken advantage of in a big way.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

pixel said:


> And there lies the entire problem:
> If we receive the queue jumpers ahead of the genuine, patient sufferers, we reward corruption at Billions of costs.
> I'm sure the genuine refugees don't mind being resettled in PNG or anywhere away from the land they're forced to flee. They won't try to hold us to ransom by demanding "Australia or nothing" and threatening self-harm if they don't get their will. And that, my friends, is neither Australian nor Fair. It's disgusting!




Yes, pixel, so why has Labor been so determined, to facilitate the process?


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> Fascinating Abbott proposes a change from a civilian operation to a military one outside of the established chain of command.......never been done before.......ever, you guys just keep ranting.
> 
> 
> Anyone wish to comment on its merits.




To back up my earlier response, IFocus, this kind of illustrates the problem with too many layers of command.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/secret-asylum-boat-report-withheld-from-police-20130726-2qp6c.html

Who, said what, to whom and who is not saying. If you have the person in charge directly responsible for all actions and answerable directly to the government. It reduces the inter departmental or chain of command buck passing.
I'd like to hear your thoughts, as you are obviously scornfull of the idea.


----------



## Julia (26 July 2013)

sptrawler, I can quite understand your suggestion that Labor is not making a genuine attempt to stop the asylum seekers, but I'm not sure you're right.

The Howard government had stopped the boats.  Prior to the election, Labor had ranted endlessly, along with the Greens, about the cruelty of the Pacific Solution and took the policy of dismantling this to the election.
"There will be no lurch to the Right", proclaimed Mr Rudd.

It didn't seem to occur to them that if the disincentives were no longer in place, the boats would quickly restart.
And so it happened.

I think it's just another example of their not thinking something through.  I genuinely think they are in a panic about what to do, hence the ill thought out so called PNG solution which is already unravelling on multiple fronts.

If they perceived electorate support for allowing free entry to Australia of anyone and everyone who can afford to pay a people smuggler, then they wouldn't be trying to stem the flow at all.  But I doubt absolutely that they cannot recognise the electoral liability the thousands of paid up people is causing them.

Certainly there is still a proportion of the population, exemplified by Zedd's comments, who are apparently advocating accepting all comers, ignoring the reality that the capacity of our immigration department is being absorbed by the boat arrivals, absolutely to the detriment of those too poor to pay people smugglers, and who will, if nothing is done to change the status quo, continue to languish for many years in squalid camps, despite being proven genuine refugees.

And this is not to take into account the tens of thousands of Australians who so desperately need help, who are homeless, often mentally ill, or in multiple other ways seemingly more disadvantaged than the healthy looking individuals arriving here in designer clothes, carrying their laptops, and who, if not completely satisfied with their situation on admission, proceed to burn down newly constructed air conditioned, ensuited accommodation.

I'm damned if these are the people who will make a genuine contribution to Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2013)

Julia said:


> sptrawler, I can quite understand your suggestion that Labor is not making a genuine attempt to stop the asylum seekers, but I'm not sure you're right.
> 
> The Howard government had stopped the boats.  Prior to the election, Labor had ranted endlessly, along with the Greens, about the cruelty of the Pacific Solution and took the policy of dismantling this to the election.
> "There will be no lurch to the Right", proclaimed Mr Rudd.
> ...




So why the panic now, one month out from the election?
A sudden realisation they have a problem, any of us following drsmiths posts knows the problem has being escalating over a long period.
So why the change of heart now?
I personaly think Rudd would have been better served, funding an asylum processing facility in Indonesia, with Australian and UN staff.
Obviously a financial incentive to Indonesia would be required, but I think we would get a much better outcome.
Also we would have some say in who comes here, and they wouldn't throw away their papers. 
They could be processed in tandem with the normal process.


----------



## pixel (26 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, pixel, so why has Labor been so determined, to facilitate the process?




Quite simple: Because the fluffheads of the Green fringe, in combination with a vociferous minority of "social" media and bloggers went all gooey and wanted to let all comers in. 
I suspect it's because most of the tweeting twits feel they can live quite comfortably on middle-class welfare; therefore, they think the working population and "The Big Miners" can finance all "those poor refugees", not realising that it becomes a bottomless pit.

Look what happened when a couple of cows were mistreated in Indonesian abattoirs: All the softies went on the social media bandwagon and demanded instant gratification - regardless of how many cattle breeders, truckies, and ancillary workers in the cattle export industry were added to the dole queue as a consequence of the export ban. Not to mention the justified indignation of our neighbours, who are not only a proud people, but also in dire need of live meat imports.

OK, so Kevin Rudd had initially been listening to the fringe and tried a more "humane" policy. Soon he realised the folly of letting amateurs run the show - but then he was accused of dictatorship and being uncooperative. He was the Leader, FFS! And a diplomat with some connections. (Yes, a big head too. But which Queensland politician is lacking in that department!?)

Our problem is, we vote for politicians that are "popular" when we really need politicians that are professional, diplomatic, and think beyond their chances at the next election. Much as I appreciated a female PM, it shouldn't be as big a deal as the fem libbers made us believe it was. Gender should NOT come before ability,


----------



## Zedd (27 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> With such a small population and only 2% of the world's economy, it is always folly to think we can solve the world's problems.
> ...
> in trying to be humane as an ideology at the expense of our nation, Labor has only been humane to the sharks of the eastern Indian Ocean and our nation has been taken advantage of in a big way.




I don't think we're trying to save the world on our own, but point taken. And I think it's become apparent to all that the current system is encouraging the risk taking behaviour that is responsible for all the drownings, so yes, in trying to be more humane, the outcomes have become less so. 



Julia said:


> Certainly there is still a proportion of the population, exemplified by Zedd's comments, who are apparently advocating accepting all comers, ignoring the reality that the capacity of our immigration department is being absorbed by the boat arrivals, absolutely to the detriment of those too poor to pay people smugglers, and who will, if nothing is done to change the status quo, continue to languish for many years in squalid camps, despite being proven genuine refugees.




I didn't think I was advocating taking all comers, but do believe in taking more, rather than rejecting people in need. My understanding is that outside of Iran, all other nations are accepting illegal immigrants back if we deem them to be such. Obviously the lack of passports and co-operation is a hurdle that needs to be properly addressed.

All in all I'm not saying I've got the answers, and I freely admit that previous policies that tried to live up to the ideals I support have failed. But I think the tone of the discussion has become toxic and non-productive.


----------



## johenmo (27 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> I didn't think I was advocating taking all comers, but do believe in taking more, rather than rejecting people in need. My understanding is that outside of Iran, all other nations are accepting illegal immigrants back if we deem them to be such. *Obviously the lack of passports and co-operation is a hurdle that needs to be properly addressed.*




My bold above.  Then take more from those who are identified & come through the "proper" channels.  Since ethnic/religious based violence has spread to the world stage why not have a "no ID = rejection" policy?  This is part of the reason those going through camps etc take so long.  It pays to be more careful/selective now.

Unless the incentives at home (unlikely) or disincentives at the destination or journey outweigh the opposite, they will still come.  And with the ppl trafficking being hundreds of thousands per boat it's big business - millions of  dollars per month in countries where hundreds of dollars has decent purchasing power.If any of those who arrive this way are allowed to stay, then the boats will come.


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## sails (27 July 2013)

Obviously passports and IDs don't suit the agenda of boat arrivals. I guess it's easier to lie without them. If no dishonesty was required then there would be no need to ditch papers AFTER getting to Indonesia. I understand they need them to get into Indonesia. 

If Aussies did this would they get our welfare?


----------



## Calliope (27 July 2013)

Tom Switzer's leader column in The Spectator Australia yesterday:



> WE approached a bevy of left-wing luminaries. Our proposition: would you, as a well-known humanitarian and vocal opponent of any and all of the John Howard-Philip Ruddock offshore processing and detention schemes, care to write a lead column this week expressing your outrage and unequivocal condemnation of Kevin Rudd's PNG "solution"?
> 
> Imagine our surprise at the deafening silence that ensued.




Not much outrage from the loony lefties, do-gooders or bleeding hearts on this forum either.


----------



## drsmith (27 July 2013)

According to The Australian, there has been 1200 arrivals from 16 boats since the PNG solution announcement with a further 5 vessels believed to be on the way.



> As Dr Purnomo became the latest regional representative to be drawn into Australia's political turmoil over border-protection policies, it emerged that more than 1200 asylum-seekers on 16 boats had made it to the Australian territories of Christmas and Cocos Islands in the seven days since Kevin Rudd announced his Papua New Guinea Solution.
> 
> Authorities were last night preparing for five more vessels believed to be on their way from Indonesia.
> 
> ...




From the media releases from Home Affairs and Customs over the past week, I count the number at 864 from 12 boats. Home Affairs though can be up to a few days late with their announcements and two from yesterday are identical in detail suggesting they both represent a single boat arrival with 68 on board. The second of those two announcements has been disregarded in my count.

It would be interesting to know where The Australian is sourcing its information from.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...scuss-turn-backs/story-fn59niix-1226686615360

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp


----------



## sails (27 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Tom Switzer's leader column in The Spectator Australia yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> Not much outrage from the loony lefties, do-gooders or bleeding hearts on this forum either.





It is beomming difficult to workout what labor actully stands for anymore...


----------



## drsmith (27 July 2013)

On another front, the January 2014 deadline for the 600 bed Manus Island facility appears to be in strife,



> Construction industry sources say it is impossible to complete the 600-bed facility on Manus Island before the promised deadline of next January.
> 
> The PNG government has still not granted title over the land earmarked for the centre, key construction contracts have not been awarded and no work has been started at the site or on a road connecting it with the island's airport.
> 
> Hornibrook NGI, the Lae construction company expected to win one of the largest subcontracts, has still not been given detailed specifications needed to finish its bid for the work.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ouds-manus-detention-plan-20130726-2qq1g.html

This could be the facility to house families. From The Australian earlier in the week,



> Four boats carrying more than 250 people have arrived since Friday, but only single adult men can be sent to PNG immediately, with families to remain in Australia until facilities are ready, which could take until next year.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ellhole-solution/story-e6frg6n6-1226683421329

If Labor's not prepared to house all comers in tents, then this as a solution isn't just listing under the weight of the arrivals so far, it's already at the bottom of the Java Trench.


----------



## Calliope (27 July 2013)

sails said:


> It is beomming difficult to workout what labor actully stands for anymore...




All Rudd stands for, is to get re-elected. He knows the PNG solution is a fizzer. He is taking a huge risk deferring the election just so he can strut the world stage once more. Meantime he is behaving like a wrecker and is spending hundreds of millions of taxpayer's dollars to set the stage for something that he will never deliver, in the vain hope that it will get him re-elected.


----------



## Julia (27 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> So why the panic now, one month out from the election?
> A sudden realisation they have a problem, any of us following drsmiths posts knows the problem has being escalating over a long period.
> So why the change of heart now?



Because now Rudd is in charge and is acutely conscious of the issues which will lose him the election.
As a result, we have the ill thought out PNG solution which is looking more like a disaster every day.

And still, Labor refuses to re-introduce TPVs.  If intending arrivals understand that Australia maintains the right to return them to country of origin as soon as Australia decides conditions there are suitable, and that no family members will be permitted to join those who have landed here, that's a huge disincentive and a very real part of why the Coalition's policy worked.



> I personaly think Rudd would have been better served, funding an asylum processing facility in Indonesia, with Australian and UN staff.
> Obviously a financial incentive to Indonesia would be required, but I think we would get a much better outcome.



Agree.  Not sure, though, that Indonesia would want that.



pixel said:


> Our problem is, we vote for politicians that are "popular" when we really need politicians that are professional, diplomatic, and think beyond their chances at the next election. Much as I appreciated a female PM, it shouldn't be as big a deal as the fem libbers made us believe it was. Gender should NOT come before ability,



Agree absolutely.


----------



## noco (27 July 2013)

The Labor Party, under Gillard, signed a Memorandum of Undertsanding with the PNG Government in August 2011 to utilize Manus Island for refugees.

Why has it taken Labor 2 years to take advantage of this agreement?

Was it because it was a part of the Howard Pacific solution which the Labor Party detested so much or is it because of the up coming election? 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...only-if-it-works/story-e6frg76f-1226686552306


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## drsmith (27 July 2013)

Weekend work is being performed at Jason Clare's Home Affairs office in order to keep up with the boat arrivals. 

Three more boat arrival announcements have appeared today dating from Wednesday and Thursday totalling 241 arrivals. This takes the total count to 1105 from 15 boats since the so-called PNG solution was implemented.

That's now not far from The Australian's 1200 from 16 boats.



> 27/07/2013   Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 27/07/2013   Border Protection Command intercepts vessel
> 26/07/2013  Border Protection Command assists vessel




http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html


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## noco (27 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Weekend work is being performed at Jason Clare's Home Affairs office in order to keep up with the boat arrivals.
> 
> Three more boat arrival announcements have appeared today dating from Wednesday and Thursday totalling 241 arrivals. This takes the total count to 1105 from 15 boats since the so-called PNG solution was implemented.
> 
> ...




And we have not heard a word from Rudd. I think he has gone into hidding.


----------



## sptrawler (27 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Weekend work is being performed at Jason Clare's Home Affairs office in order to keep up with the boat arrivals.
> 
> Three more boat arrival announcements have appeared today dating from Wednesday and Thursday totalling 241 arrivals. This takes the total count to 1105 from 15 boats since the so-called PNG solution was implemented.
> 
> ...




Not a mention of it, on the news in W.A, unless I missed it.


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## sptrawler (28 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Not a mention of it, on the news in W.A, unless I missed it.




My appologies, just came up.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/18170418/1267-boat-people-arrived-since-png-deal/


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## bunyip (28 July 2013)

How about those idiots who march down the street, waving placards and shouting things like ‘REFUGEES ARE FINE BY ME’. And ‘FREE THE REFUGEES’. 
I wonder if they’ve even sat down and thought, really thought, about the implications of letting people loose in our society before we’ve really checked them out properly to fine out if they have any criminal history or if they are in fact genuine refugees.
I wonder if these loonies have ever given any real consideration to the cost of supporting these people, most of whom would be on welfare for the rest of their lives. 
I wonder if they’ve ever considered they consequences of letting people in without giving them proper health checks that would pick up contagious diseases like TB. 
I wonder if they’ve ever considered the absolute flood of people who would start arriving once word got around that Australia would release them into society with virtually no checks at all.
I wonder if they ever consider the social unrest that will invariably result, and has already started, from having thousands of people among us whose values, ideals, culture and religion are incompatible with our own.

Actually I don’t really wonder at all – I already know that these placard-waving, brain-dead morons don’t have sufficient mental capacity to consider any of the above.
Gess these lefty twits annoy me.....I’d like to sool my old blue cattle dog on to the bastards.


----------



## drsmith (28 July 2013)

Kevin Rudd on today's Bolt Report, a teaser.



> On slowing the boats, Mr Rudd says his plan is not failing, but warns voters may have to wait "many months" until after the election to see if the PNG plan will have the desired impact.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/sp...lt-the-interview/story-fnho52jj-1226686860312

I would have thought that he would be looking for a bit more zip than that.


----------



## noco (28 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd on today's Bolt Report, a teaser.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Mr Kevin Chaos was in Afghanistan yesterday for a photo shoot.


----------



## IFocus (28 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> What's your take IFocus.




The only pos that anyone has noted is that it would be good to have a single point of organisation but the rest has been really Rudd like in a rushed head line.

I think Rudd has out toughed the Coalition, last poll confirms amazingly that Labor is in front on dealing with asylum seekers expect an election announcement soon.
The best the Opposition can do is reassure the people smugglers that they can overwhelm the PNG deal which was picked up by Cassidy on the Insiders 

For the record I think most boat people are genuine refugees as defined by the UN but I don't support them as clearly they are queue jumpers.  

My biggest concerns still lay with Africans refugees that come from long running tribe and state wars.


----------



## Julia (28 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> My biggest concerns still lay with Africans refugees that come from long running tribe and state wars.



Mine also, along with people from countries afflicted with famine where people are simply dying because of something as basic as lack of food.


----------



## johenmo (28 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> My biggest concerns still lay with Africans refugees that come from long running tribe and state wars.




A brawl this morning between Liberians & some other"...African country.." as Liberian Independence day was celebrated.  Have seen the same thing between Somalis & various groups when in NZ.  

one-man-arrested-two-in-hospital-after-large-brawl-in-melbourne/


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## pixel (28 July 2013)

bunyip said:


> Actually I don’t really wonder at all – I already know that these placard-waving, brain-dead morons don’t have sufficient mental capacity to consider any of the above.
> Gess these lefty twits annoy me.....I’d like to sool my old blue cattle dog on to the bastards.




... and your dog will probably be much smarter than the lot of the placard-carriers too.
Cut their dole and make them work for a living.


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## bunyip (29 July 2013)

johenmo said:


> A brawl this morning between Liberians & some other"...African country.." as Liberian Independence day was celebrated.  Have seen the same thing between Somalis & various groups when in NZ.
> 
> one-man-arrested-two-in-hospital-after-large-brawl-in-melbourne/





This sort of thing is becoming all too common in Australia these days.
You'd think the people who emigrate here from troubled countries would have enough sense to say _'OK, let's leave our troubles behind us and make a fresh start in this new free country of ours'._
But no, all too often they stick stubbornly to the old attitudes and tribal or factional resentments and disputes that caused them problems back home. They just don't seem bright enough to realize that if they keep doing the same thing they'll keep getting the same unpleasant outcome they've always got.

Meanwhile, there are many people who would like to emigrate to our country but can't - people who have the language and work skills and other attributes that would enable them to fit in and start making an immediate contribution to our country without causing us problems or costing us big money in various training programs.


----------



## noco (29 July 2013)

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd on today's Bolt Report, a teaser.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is little doubt Rudd is starting to see the error of his ways but won't admit it by saying it may take months to stop the boats. So far his ranting and raving has no effect on boat arrivals.

On the Bolt Report yesterday morning Rudd could not give one straight answer on the total cost of his hare brain scheme or if he could gaurantee it would work.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-for-tony-abbott/story-fn9qr68y-1226687207348

- - - Updated - - -



bunyip said:


> This sort of thing is becoming all too common in Australia these days.
> You'd think the people who emigrate here from troubled countries would have enough sense to say _'OK, let's leave our troubles behind us and make a fresh start in this new free country of ours'._
> But no, all too often they stick stubbornly to the old attitudes and tribal or factional resentments and disputes that caused them problems back home. They just don't seem bright enough to realize that if they keep doing the same thing they'll keep getting the same unpleasant outcome they've always got.
> 
> Meanwhile, there are many people who would like to emigrate to our country but can't - people who have the language and work skills and other attributes that would enable them to fit in and start making an immediate contribution to our country without causing us problems or costing us big money in various training programs.




+ 1. These are my sentiments also.


----------



## Julia (29 July 2013)

It seems Mr Rudd's PNG solution is meeting with less than full approval amongst our neighbours.

A few days ago Mr O'Neil suggested Australia was regarding PNG as its dumping ground.

Indonesia is offended that the proposition was not discussed with them first.

And now Fiji is berating Mr Rudd for his arrogance.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2013/s3813117.htm


----------



## bunyip (29 July 2013)

Julia said:


> It seems Mr Rudd's PNG solution is meeting with less than full approval amongst our neighbours.
> 
> A few days ago Mr O'Neil suggested Australia was regarding PNG as its dumping ground.
> 
> ...




The statement from Fiji’s foreign minister can be summarized as* ‘Rudd has used a monetary bribe to palm our refugee problem off on to one of our neighbors.’*
This is, as we know, a totally accurate description of what actually happened.
Let’s not forget that it was Rudd who caused the problem in the first place – the problem wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for his stupidity in scrapping an effective border protection policy and replacing it with an unworkable model that effectively invited refugees to head south en masse to Australia.

I’d like to know how Rudd’s PNG ‘solution’ leaves us in respect of our obligations as a signatory to the United Nations Refugee Convention. Surely this means that we’re in breach of those obligations by shutting the door to genuine refugees.
Not that it worries me.....I’m dead against us being part of the UN Refugee Convention anyway – all it does is give somebody else the right to pressure us into doing what may not be in our best interests. I see no good reason why we should play nursemaid to people from around the world who are down on their luck due to war, famine, religious persecution, or any other reason.
Sure these people are going through a tough time, but so are many people in our own country who are desperately in need of help. I say our first priority should be to look after our own.


----------



## johenmo (30 July 2013)

Think outside the square....with the money Australia spends, is there an island we could buy & build the basics & let them settle & become their own Boat People country?  Then they can get third world aid from all countries around the world which will form the initial backbone of their economy.


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## noco (30 July 2013)

johenmo said:


> Think outside the square....with the money Australia spends, is there an island we could buy & build the basics & let them settle & become their own Boat People country?  Then they can get third world aid from all countries around the world which will form the initial backbone of their economy.




Yes, it is an island called Tazmanya.


----------



## IFocus (30 July 2013)

Sheezers I cannot believe the Coalition kicking own goals thought Labor had a mortgage on that side of political life

Coalition's 'tent city' trip funded by logistics company that provides tents



> A logistics company that stands to profit from the Coalition's "tent city" on Nauru funded the trip of its immigration spokesman Scott Morrison and a journalist and photographer from News Corporation to the remote island to announce the plan.
> 
> The trip to Nauru was facilitated by Toll Holdings, which has multimillion-dollar contracts already to help handle asylum seekers and is eager for more business in the area.







Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...vides-tents-20130730-2qws3.html#ixzz2aWHeGOf9

- - - Updated - - -


----------



## Zedd (30 July 2013)

noco said:


> On the Bolt Report yesterday morning Rudd could not give one straight answer on the total cost of his hare brain scheme or if he could gaurantee it would work.




Interesting take on the interview. I only watched it yesterday, but thought the answer was the best he could do. How long do you think Abbott's policy would take? There's no definite answer, and giving one is just setting yourself up to fail. Similar to promising a surplus in the midst of a global economic upheaval...

Overall I think the interview showed Bolt up as his usual one-eyed self, rather than scoring any direct hits against Rudd. It's a pity because Bolt has an incredible mind, and has in the past done some excellent work when the topic warrants such narrow-viewed opposition.


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2013)

Zedd said:


> Interesting take on the interview. I only watched it yesterday, but thought the answer was the best he could do. How long do you think Abbott's policy would take? There's no definite answer, and giving one is just setting yourself up to fail. Similar to promising a surplus in the midst of a global economic upheaval...
> 
> Overall I think the interview showed Bolt up as his usual one-eyed self, rather than scoring any direct hits against Rudd. It's a pity because Bolt has an incredible mind, and has in the past done some excellent work when the topic warrants such narrow-viewed opposition.




Yes I thought it was great how Rudd said it was the Public who wanted to shut down Howards Pacific solution.

Master of illusion, terrific used car salesman.


----------



## Julia (30 July 2013)

johenmo said:


> Think outside the square....with the money Australia spends, is there an island we could buy & build the basics & let them settle & become their own Boat People country?  Then they can get third world aid from all countries around the world which will form the initial backbone of their economy.



That's a really interesting suggestion, johenmo.  I suppose there will be all sorts of reasons why not, but it sounds worth investigating to me.



IFocus said:


> Sheezers I cannot believe the Coalition kicking own goals thought Labor had a mortgage on that side of political life
> 
> Coalition's 'tent city' trip funded by logistics company that provides tents



Seems entirely sensible to me.  Then when the next lot of arsonists burns them down, they will be much cheaper and faster to replace.
Why not accept Toll's passage up there?  It's not as though it was supposed to be any sort of secret.


----------



## Zedd (30 July 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I thought it was great how Rudd said it was the Public who wanted to shut down Howards Pacific solution.




Thought that was an incredible admission/spin myself. 

The fact that it's true is noteworthy, as I posted recently that he did indeed have a mandate from myself, and I would guess a large majority of his voters, to abolish the Howard's solution. 

But for a politician, let alone the leader of the country, to come out and effectively deny responsibility because "the people made me do it" was interesting to say the least.


----------



## Ijustnewit (30 July 2013)

noco said:


> Yes, it is an island called Tazmanya.




Don't worry noco they are here already, walking down the outer suburb streets in the hundreds .Families with 5 kids in tow, lining up for free medical , dental and eyewear. When they don't like the circumstances they hunger strike or self harm till they get their way. It's the perfect place run by a Labor Green Coalition that has bankrupted the place and has the unemployment rate running over 8%.


----------



## Calliope (31 July 2013)

> As Tony Abbott took to breakfast media to sell his plan for a tent city on the tiny pacific island, Mr Burke said some of it was not different to Labor's solution for rapid expansion of facilities.
> 
> "*The concept of using tents and marquees for rapid expansion is no different to what we have been flagging,*" Mr Burke told ABC radio.




Tony Burke is just as big a hypocrite as Rudd. Ethics and morality take a back seat to political skulduggery..



> *Dripping with sincerity in 2007, Burke wrote to the "Buddies Refugee Support Group" : "The Howard government's use of Nauru as an immigration detention centre is not only a waste of money, it is inhumane*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-village-idiocy/story-e6frg7bo-1226688359012


----------



## pixel (31 July 2013)

Calliope said:


> Tony Burke is just as big a hypocrite as Rudd. Ethics and morality take a back seat to political skulduggery..
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-village-idiocy/story-e6frg7bo-1226688359012




So he changed his mind. 
He's a Politician; they do it all the time: They "adjust to popular opinion." 
Especially when an election is on the horizon.


----------



## IFocus (31 July 2013)

Julia said:


> Seems entirely sensible to me.




From a purely business angle yes but from a government or future government minister angle super major conflict of interest. If Morrison or his future department were to issue Toll with a contract you might as well call them NSW Labor.


----------



## Julia (31 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> From a purely business angle yes but from a government or future government minister angle super major conflict of interest. If Morrison or his future department were to issue Toll with a contract you might as well call them NSW Labor.



That's just silly.
Where do you think the opposition is supposed to source funds for this sort of travel?

They have been completely open about it, and have done nothing more than Rudd has done on multiple occasions before having access to the government jet.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2013)

IFocus said:


> From a purely business angle yes but from a government or future government minister angle super major conflict of interest. If Morrison or his future department were to issue Toll with a contract you might as well call them NSW Labor.




You should check who were on the board of directors of insulation companies.


----------



## DB008 (1 August 2013)

Got this via e-mail.

If this is true, what a joke.


----------



## pixel (1 August 2013)

DB008 said:


> Got this via e-mail.
> 
> If this is true, what a joke.




It's made the rounds for some time, but it's false. On both sides.

Slay the hoax: http://www.hoax-slayer.com/refugee-payment-hoax.shtml


----------



## Julia (1 August 2013)

pixel said:


> It's made the rounds for some time, but it's false. On both sides.



And has been raised and discredited about half a dozen times on this forum.

At the same time, if one were to take into account the value of medical, psychological, optical, legal services, accommodation and provision of meals by the charities, then it might actually come close to being correct.
While Australians are rarely able to access legal aid, some of the country's top barristers are providing their services to asylum seekers either pro bono or via legal aid funds.


----------



## pixel (1 August 2013)

Julia said:


> And has been raised and discredited about half a dozen times on this forum.
> 
> At the same time, if one were to take into account the value of medical, psychological, optical, legal services, accommodation and provision of meals by the charities, then it might actually come close to being correct.
> While Australians are rarely able to access legal aid, some of the country's top barristers are providing their services to asylum seekers either pro bono or via legal aid funds.




Again, with the exception of the Legal Aid aspect, the argument carries only limited weight:
Pensioners have the same access to medical, psychological, optical, etc. resources. 
The Charities don't discriminate whether those seeking a free meal are Australian Nationals or refugees.
Similarly, needy Australians are just as entitled to Public Housing as other homeless people.

The only argument that could be raised here is: the influx of queue jumpers smuggled in by boats adds to the strain on the available resources and affects "True Blue Aussies", who now have to stand in the same queue that grows longer and longer. Not to mention the Billions of Tax Dollars we are forced to waste on verifying, who those new arrivals are; on bribing our neighbours to accept the human cargo that try to force their way in by blackmail and threats; on paying for watch and support personnel on Christmas Island, for charter flights, for additional camps; ...

All that on top of our commitments to fund and support UN camps and facilities, from where we could provide asylum for many more *genuine *refugees.


----------



## Julia (2 August 2013)

pixel said:


> Again, with the exception of the Legal Aid aspect, the argument carries only limited weight:
> Pensioners have the same access to medical, psychological, optical, etc. resources.
> The Charities don't discriminate whether those seeking a free meal are Australian Nationals or refugees.
> Similarly, needy Australians are just as entitled to Public Housing as other homeless people.



Yeah, right.  Go and ask a few homeless and pensioner folk, pixel and let them tell you how much access they have to eg legal aid.


----------



## startrader (3 August 2013)

pixel said:


> Again, with the exception of the Legal Aid aspect, the argument carries only limited weight:
> Pensioners have the same access to medical, psychological, optical, etc. resources.
> The Charities don't discriminate whether those seeking a free meal are Australian Nationals or refugees.
> Similarly, needy Australians are just as entitled to Public Housing as other homeless people.
> ...




Pensioners do not have the same access to medical, psychological, optical etc. resources.  
*Asylum seekers receive FREE doctor's visits, FREE dental care, FREE pharmaceuticals and FREE education*.


----------



## Julia (3 August 2013)

Julia said:


> Yeah, right.  Go and ask a few homeless and pensioner folk, pixel and let them tell you how much access they have to eg legal aid.



Sorry, pixel, I missed your exception to legal aid.
Agree with Startrader, though.  
There has also been the suggestion that asylum seekers have their phone bills paid, many in the thousands of dollars with calls back to Afghanistan etc.  I don't know whether this is true.

Overriding all of the detail is the concern shown for these people in terms of their psychological and physical welfare by psychiatrists and refugee advocates et al, in contrast to these needs in our own disadvantaged and unemployed, often homeless people


----------



## pixel (3 August 2013)

Julia said:


> I don't know whether this is true.




Thanks Julia,

that was the main point of my reply: There is so much misinformation being spread. By refugee advocates and lawyers. By strict opponents of the open borders policy. 
I try to keep a balanced view and to understand the arguments of both sides.

*BUT* that doesn't prevent me from arguing my own opinion. Which includes -

I hate being held to ransom: "Take us in or else..."
I am opposed to queue jumping. The boat people may not be as comfortable in Indonesia as they hope to be in Australia, but if they've fled war and persecution in their home country, that thread no longer exists in Indonesia. Especially if they can afford the boat fare for themselves.
I can understand that a Billion people wish for a better life in places like Australia; but there are already Millions here, who are even worse off than many of them.
I object to provision of "free everything" if people are able to fend for themselves.
Most of all, I object to using the concept of Multiculturalism as an excuse for not integrating, placing one's own claimed superior "Cultural Heritage" above Australian law and customs. The touchstone of "Good Character" should be applied to ALL newcomers - especially in cases of rioting and lying.
Accepting excess population from overcrowded regions is no solution; birth control is. But I also see that's impossible to achieve, given the attitude of religious leaders and do-gooders all over the world.


----------



## Julia (3 August 2013)

I completely agree with all your comments above, pixel.


----------



## noco (4 August 2013)

Mr Kevin Chaos has failed again with his on the run boat people polices and even has doubts himself that it will work.

Anither faliure for Kevin Rudd.

I will give him a "D". That is "D" for DUNCE.

Thank gawd we now know when the election will be. Yes 7th September after his world strut at the G20 meeting. 


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/refugee-fix-a-shamble/story-fni0ffsx-1226690721248


----------



## sails (4 August 2013)

If Rudd plans to keep to his promise of no boat arrivals without a visa will be settled in Australia, then why is he building 2 new large detention centres in Australia?  Was his statement and all the millions spent on full page ads all  an outright lie?


----------



## dutchie (5 August 2013)

Rudds plan for settlements in PNG and Nauru is all bluff.

The people smugglers know this and will act accordingly.

No one will settle in PNG let alone Nauru.

As Julia Gillard said "another boat, another policy failure".

Again.


----------



## sails (5 August 2013)

dutchie said:


> Rudds plan for settlements in PNG and Nauru is all bluff.
> 
> The people smugglers know this and will act accordingly.
> 
> ...




Nauru is saying "no" to resettlement. They will only take people in transit.  How many more lies has Rudd told? Is this why he is building large detention centres at a cost of $140 million.  Perhaps he intends to fly them back here quietly from Manus and Nauru.



> Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, in a joint press conference with the president of the Republic of Nauru, Baron Waqa, on Saturday, said that people found to have a genuine refugee claim would "have the opportunity to settle and reside on Nauru".
> 
> But a spokeswoman for Nauru has told Fairfax Media that none of the asylum seekers would get citizenship or be considered permanent residents.
> 
> ...





Read more: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...ont-be-permanent/story-fni0xqi4-1226691157918


And more here:  http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...esettle_refugees_in_nauru_nauru_says_he_wont/


----------



## noco (5 August 2013)

dutchie said:


> Rudds plan for settlements in PNG and Nauru is all bluff.
> 
> The people smugglers know this and will act accordingly.
> 
> ...




He thought he could HOOD WINK the people smugglers like he tried with he the Australian public.


----------



## drsmith (8 August 2013)

What devil lies in the detail of Levin Rudd's asylum deal with PNG ?

Julie Bishop on Lateline last night,



> JULIE BISHOP: But this agreement with PNG has opened up a whole new front. There's a clause 19 that says Australia may well be exposed to a whole new front of activity because we will be asked and could be asked to support people who are coming directly and illegally into PNG. Now there's a 760-kilometre border between Indonesia and Papua New Guinea. There are already about 10,000 West Papuans and others that have come into PNG and are living there illegally. And this ...
> 
> TONY JONES: Alright, we'll get to the nub of that. Are you actually saying that Australia will be responsible under this clause for West Papuan refugees going across the border into Papua New Guinea?
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3820639.htm


----------



## Calliope (8 August 2013)

Perhaps we should be thinking about our own socially disadvantaged people before spending billions to settle illegal immigrants. We should hang our heads in shame.

[video]http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2399698489/Social-disadvantage-in-Australia[/video]


----------



## drsmith (10 August 2013)

No boat arrival announcements on Jason Clare's Home Affairs site since Monday, but at Christmas Island they are still coming in.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/


----------



## noco (11 August 2013)

The boats had slowed for one day and Tony Bourke claims Labor's PNG solution is working.

But then he is not really too sure because the weather has been adverse resulting in a delay but nevertheless there is still one boat a day still on the high seas heading to Christmas Island and risking life and limb.

Some 1800 have arrived since Rudd's PNG announcement. I would like to know where will all these new arrivals end up and why is Rudd building two new detention centres in Australia. 



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/.../comments/boats_slowed_but_only_to_one_a_day/


----------



## drsmith (12 August 2013)

No boat arrival announcements on Jason Calre's Home Affairs site since Aug 04.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...cause-the-rudd-has-stopped-them.html#comments

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...boat_people_now_sail_from_png_rudds_solution/


----------



## Country Lad (12 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> No boat arrival announcements on Jason Calre's Home Affairs site since Aug 04.




What, no mention of the new route of Christmas Is to Manus Is to Thursday Is?  No, I expect the govt would not want to acknowledge that.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...north-queensland/story-fnho52jp-1226695154867

http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2013/08/12/246538_local-news.html

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Calliope (13 August 2013)

Country Lad said:


> What, no mention of the new route of Christmas Is to Manus Is to Thursday Is?  No, I expect the govt would not want to acknowledge that.




I'm pretty sure Rudd would not be concerned about this development. He knows that in less than four weeks it will not be his problem. Far better to leave a mess than a solution.


----------



## noco (13 August 2013)

Calliope said:


> I'm pretty sure Rudd would not be concerned about this development. He knows that in less than four weeks it will not be his problem. Far better to leave a mess than a solution.




I think Rudd takes his problem to bed at night and wakes up with the solution in hand.


----------



## drsmith (13 August 2013)

Some numbers from the Fairfax press,



> In the 24 days since Mr Rudd entered into a deal with Mr O'Neill to send asylum-seekers to PNG, 2305 asylum-seekers have arrived on 33 boats, calculations show.




The media reported about 1200 arrivals in the first week of the with Mr O'Neill so that leaves about 1100 over the subsequent 17 days at an average of about 450 per week. That's still a rate of over 20000 per year or more than we received in all of 2012.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...is-claiming-20130812-2rsi3.html#ixzz2bnVNC4Vs

They keep coming, but Jason Clare's Home Affairs site is still silent on the most recent boat arrivals.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...the-usual-welcoming-committee-is-assembl.html


----------



## Julia (13 August 2013)

Country Lad said:


> What, no mention of the new route of Christmas Is to Manus Is to Thursday Is?  No, I expect the govt would not want to acknowledge that.



Mr Burke is quite unworried about this.  He assures Australians that it's just fanciful to imagine this will become an entrenched route.  Why not?  Because the outcome will be the same, ie they will end up on Nauru or Manus.
Meantime, apparently rebuilding of the burned buildings on Nauru is already under way.  Might have been an idea to continue with just tents - much cheaper to replace when they get burned.


----------



## noco (13 August 2013)

More lies from Rudd on the reduction of boat arrivals.... Rudd calims 30% when in actual fact it is 19.7%.....

Most likely the weather has been adverse.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...by_30_per_cent_facts_says_its_20_and_too_lit/


----------



## drsmith (14 August 2013)

What is being claimed in the audio is interesting.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-women-and-children-today-14-august-2013.html

It's about 2:20.


----------



## noco (14 August 2013)

noco said:


> More lies from Rudd on the reduction of boat arrivals.... Rudd calims 30% when in actual fact it is 19.7%.....
> 
> Most likely the weather has been adverse.
> 
> ...




I just listened to the interview on ABC with Tony Bourke and Scott Morrison by Leigh Sails.

Bourke was all at sea with his answers and was quoting a reduction of new arrivals at between 20 and 40%. That would have to be a wild guess I should imagine.

He said there was another plane load sent from Christmas Island to Manus Island today but he did not elaborate whether it was a Cessna 402 or a Jumbo jet so it could have been bertween 8 and 300+....He did not have a clue how many were sent.

Bourke also made a foolish remark that Morrison was helping illegals to exit PNG through Thusrday Island....I believe the smugglers are a bit smarter than Bourke and they don't need Morrison to tell them how.

The PNG Nationals have been coming across the Torres Straights in thier tinnies for years. I have just spoken to one of the state pollies in Townsville who informed me The PNG Nationals come across to TI for TB treatment. They go back with thier medication and instead of utiliising it themselves, they share the medication with their families resulting in the failure of any cure.

I believe it costs the Queensland State Government some $6 million per year of which the state receives back a measely $2 million from the Federal Goverment.

So for Boutke to say Morrison would be helping people smugglers to set up a trade between PNG and Queensland is absolute crap. 

Bourke looks like a man way out of his depth


----------



## noco (15 August 2013)

No doubt Labor will live up to their reputation and will try their hardest to conceal the truth about boat arrivals. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...on-whos-counting/story-fn9qr68y-1226697353967


----------



## drsmith (16 August 2013)

Ben Fordham serves it up to Sarah Hanson-Young and judging by her reaction at the end, she didn't like it.

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/11104

On the topic of numbers, Jason Clare in a media interview has advised 300 this week (ABC radio).


----------



## drsmith (17 August 2013)

I hope for Mr O'Neill's sake that he took the call with the earpiece some distance from the side of his head.



> The Prime Minister called Mr O'Neill after the PNG leader was reported as casting doubt on key elements of the policy.
> 
> Mr O'Neill had said there was no agreement for PNG to re-settle genuine asylum-seekers after processing on Manus Island and that many would end up in Australia.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-of-asylum-deal/story-fn9qr68y-1226698972648


----------



## drsmith (17 August 2013)

While it's hard to find a count on the numbers coming in, there is a count on the numbers being sent to PNG under the so-called new arrangements. So far it's 8 groups comprising either 39 or 40 each. 5 of these groups have been sent in the past week.

http://www.newsroom.immi.gov.au/releases

Also of interest is this and other similar posts on Michael Smith's blog,

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ulously-appears-from-nowhere-bearing-asy.html
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-without-flight-numbers-even-tail-number.html

I think the suggestion is that asylum seekers are being brought of Nauru in secret.


----------



## pixel (17 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> I think the suggestion is that asylum seekers are being brought of Nauru in secret.




Why not bring them back into the nearest UN camp?
They'll be as safe as all other refugees and can be routinely assessed to be resettled in an orderly fashion.


----------



## Calliope (18 August 2013)

Can you imagine anyone, except foreign affairs expert Rudd, being stupid enough to talk about making  a "deal" with this ratbag? You can't make deals with blackmailers...they keep upping the ante. O'Neill knows he has only three weeks to extract more cash.



> PAPUA New Guinea's Prime Minister Peter O'Neill says his government remains "100 per cent committed" to its asylum seeker agreement with the Rudd government following questions over the deal.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ylum-deal-oneill/story-fn3dxiwe-1226699276927


----------



## Macquack (18 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> *Ben Fordham *serves it up to Sarah Hanson-Young and judging by her reaction at the end, she didn't like it.
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/11104




Ben Fordham is a smart **** little prick.

If you watch him on Channel Nine's "Today" program you would swear butter would not melt in his mouth. But, when he dons his super shock jock facade on 2GB he turns in to a vicious attack dog. He has zero credibility.

To be fair to the Greens, they have stuck to their position on asylum seekers and for grubby Fordham to claim that Sarah Hanson-Young is responsible for  "a thousand plus people drowning to the bottom of the ocean and dying, they are not on the earth anymore" is bloody outrageous.


----------



## Julia (18 August 2013)

pixel said:


> Why not bring them back into the nearest UN camp?
> They'll be as safe as all other refugees and can be routinely assessed to be resettled in an orderly fashion.



That's an excellent idea.  Pretty hard to argue against that just in terms of fairness and logic.


----------



## Calliope (18 August 2013)

Sarah H-Y is a nasty piece of work and a pain in the neck to Christine Milne. She at least won't lose any sleep if Nick Xenophon takes her out.



> Senator Xenophon will advise his supporters to put the Liberal or Labor parties ahead of the Greens at the September 7 poll, making it harder for Senator Sarah Hanson-Young to be returned.



Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...st/story-fnho52ip-1226698886075#ixzz2cHLfSc8f


----------



## Calliope (18 August 2013)

pixel said:


> Why not bring them back into the nearest UN camp?
> They'll be as safe as all other refugees and can be routinely assessed to be resettled in an orderly fashion.




Yes. Gillard tried to do this in a limited way with Malaysia, but somehow it never got off the ground. The trouble is there is no such thing as an orderly fashion ...Only chaos.




A refugee camp in Malaysia.



> *There are now more than 45.2 million displaced people ”” 15.4 million refugees, 937,000 asylum seekers and 28.8 million forced to flee within the borders of their own countries.* The crisis is at its worst since 1994, according to a report released today by the United Nations. And more unaccompanied children sought asylum last year than ever before.
> 
> The report, based on data collected from governments, nongovernmental organizations and the UN's refugee agency, says about 7.6 million people were displaced during 2012 alone because of conflict or persecution. *On average, about 20,000 people were displaced every day in 2012.*




http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/...d-people-afghanistan-somalia-sudan-syria-iraq


----------



## sails (18 August 2013)

Boats are still coming while the real needy refugees are kept waiting for years in camps.  Whether this one is really in trouble or looking for HMAS taxi service remains to be known. 




> A very big boat - 200 on board - in trouble north of Christmas Island:
> 
> MAYDAY RELAY
> 
> ...






Boat with 200 asylum seekers reported sinking

http://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-rescue/distress-and-safety-comms/msi/AUSMSI.htm


----------



## Julia (18 August 2013)

Macquack said:


> To be fair to the Greens, they have stuck to their position on asylum seekers and for grubby Fordham to claim that Sarah Hanson-Young is responsible for  "a thousand plus people drowning to the bottom of the ocean and dying, they are not on the earth anymore" is bloody outrageous.



I didn't hear him saying she was responsible for the drownings.   He did refuse to allow her to obfuscate in her answers and that's what he should do imo.  She has been around long enough and is sufficiently media savvy to know what to expect if she accepts an invitation to be interviewed by him.

I agree that they have 'stuck to their position on asylum seekers' so can claim consistency, unlike the multiple positions of Labor.

But what the Greens never, ever address is the unfairness of the hundreds of thousands of genuine refugees, so classified already by UNHCR, waiting for many years in refugee camps throughout the world, with no hope of admission to Australia because they cannot pay people smugglers, and the places that might have gone to them via the humanitarian refugee program are all being usurped by the boat arrivals in their designer clothes.
This is what I want the Greens to address, but they never do, making them as hypocritical as all the other politicians.


----------



## drsmith (18 August 2013)

Macquack said:


> Ben Fordham is a smart **** little prick.



SHY is either an alien whom having saved her own species is showing us the way or she is just an oversized spoiled brat.

Of the 50,000 odd arrivals that have come by boat and the 1,000 or more that have perished at sea in the attempt, it's perhaps worth considering how many deaths there would have been out of that total had none come at all by boat. 

It's an interesting consideration, but not one that stands in the way of Green dogma.

I also note the latest arrival with 205 on board. In terms of the numbers that are currently being sent to Kevin Rudd's Gulag Manus, that's a weeks worth in a single boat.


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2013)

That so-called sinking vessel from yesterday with over 200 POB has made it Xmas Island.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...got-better-enough-to-make-90-nm-under-it.html

It also seems the Navy was dealing with a number of other asylum boats over the weekend,

https://audioboo.fm/boos/1554352-shaz-with-hundreds-of-asylum-seekers-at-christmas-island-19-august


----------



## Bintang (19 August 2013)

Julia said:


> This is what I want the Greens to address, but they never do, making them as hypocritical as all the other politicians.




Its not just Australian politicians who are hypocritical. How about this?

Indonesia's security co-ordinating Minister Djoko Suyanto has protested about a 'flotilla' from Australia illegally entering Indonesian territory. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/jakarta-protests-to-australia-over-west-papua-flotilla/story-e6frg6so-1226699724956

Mr Djoko said in a note circulated to Jakarta journalists.
_“I told the Australian ambassador it would be better if no country became the departure point of anybody who wants to disturb another country's sovereignty,”_ 

Did Mr Djoko perhaps mean to say this?:

"I told the Australia ambassador it would be better if *Indonesia was* not the departure point of anybody who wants to disturb *the sovereignty of Australia*"


----------



## sails (19 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> That so-called sinking vessel from yesterday with over 200 POB has made it Xmas Island.
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...got-better-enough-to-make-90-nm-under-it.html
> 
> ...




Masses of people arriving according to Shaz on Christmas Island.  Is Rudd trying to hide this?


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2013)

sails said:


> Masses of people arriving according to Shaz on Christmas Island.  Is Rudd trying to hide this?



Judging by when the boat arrival announcements stopped on Jason Clare's site, I can only assume they're hiding behind the caretaker convention although other announcements are still appearing.

I don't know where the media are getting their numbers from at the moment, Michael Smith has summed the recent arrivals,



> Shaz reports the following: HMAS Bundaberg 18 AUG PM 51 POB Own steam after apparent false Mayday call 19 AUG early AM 208 POB HMAS Pirie a short time ago 129 POB Total 388 illegal arrivals since sunset yesterday. DIAC has set up a welcome marquee in Dlying Fish Cove. I kid you not.




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/08/confirming-illegal-boat-pob-since-yesterday-evening.html


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2013)

One thing that's clear in an interview between Barrie Cassidy and Scott Morrison yesterday is that Scott Morrison has done his homework.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3828114.htm


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2013)

A large number of boat arrival announcements from since the election was called has appeared on the Customs site.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp


----------



## noco (19 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> One thing that's clear in an interview between Barrie Cassidy and Scott Morrison yesterday is that Scott Morrison has done his homework.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3828114.htm




Cassidy is no match for Morrison. I am impressed with this fellow.

It is a wonder Morrison has not got some sort of intelligence operation in plcae to monitor current arrivals.


----------



## Macquack (19 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> Of the 50,000 odd arrivals that have come by boat and the 1,000 or more that have perished at sea in the attempt, it's perhaps worth considering how many deaths there would have been out of that total *had none come at all by boat*.
> 
> It's an interesting consideration, but not one that stands in the way of Green dogma.




DrSmith, you go on as if *no boats ever arrived at all* under John Howard.

What annoys me is when people fiegn compassion for asylum seekers who perish at sea, when they really couldn't give a rats ars*.

Smith, your mate Ben Fordham is a classic example. 

From that interview with Sara Hanson Young, Fordham says 


> *I've got a big heart *and *I care about people from all walks of life* and all *corners of the globe *and *people turning up here by boat*.....when I saw those images of women and children being '*smashed'* against the rocks on Christmas Island, I said to my self we have to stop this to stop people from dying.




Spare us the crocodile tears Fordham, you are a fraud.


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2013)

Macquack said:


> DrSmith, you go on as if *no boats ever arrived at all* under John Howard.
> 
> What annoys me is when people fiegn compassion for asylum seekers who perish at sea, when they really couldn't give a rats ars*.
> 
> Smith, your mate Ben Fordham is a classic example.




Or your mate Rudd.lol  With his " don't let an asylum seeker, get in the way of an election win" what a goose.


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2013)

Macquack said:


> DrSmith, you go on as if *no boats ever arrived at all* under John Howard.



You are avoiding the point in your response. I didn't make any comparison with John Howard's policies but as you know, it was very few under his government once the Pacific Solution was in full swing.

As for compassion, we can have that and secure borders at the same time or is this a basic principal you disagree with ?


----------



## drsmith (19 August 2013)

Some numbers.

Week ending Friday July 26: 1068 arrivals on 13 boats.
Week ending Friday Aug 02: 619 arrivals on 8 boats.
Week ending Friday Aug 09: 552 arrivals on 8 boats (excludes one boat arrival containing 2 PNG nationals).
Week ending Friday Aug 16: 282 arrivals on 5 boats (also includes 2 arrivals from Boigu Island in the Torres Strait).
So far this week: 386 arrivals on 3 boats.

That's a total of 2907 arrivals and all are since the announcement of the new PNG arrangements.

http://www.jasonclare.com.au/media/portfolio-releases/home-affairs-and-justice-releases.html
http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp

There have been no further announcements of transfers to Manus Island under the new arrangements so that still stands at around 320 from eight transfers. 

http://www.newsroom.immi.gov.au/releases


----------



## drsmith (20 August 2013)

Another boat today which sank. 106 rescued from the water and another 5 unaccounted for, presumed lost with the vessel.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/BorderProtectionCommandassistsvesselFinalUpdate.asp

The count from one of the boats over the weekend was also increased from 209 to 220. This takes the arrivals since last Friday to 503 and the total now subject to Kevin Rudd's new arrangements to 3024.

No further transfers to Manus Island today under the new arrangement which is now subject to a court challenge.


----------



## drsmith (21 August 2013)

An offshore transfer of 26 from Xmas Island, not to Manus but to Nauru.



> The first group of asylum seekers, including the first family group, has been sent to Nauru under Labor's new resettlement arrangement.
> 
> The Department of Immigration confirmed that the group of 14 adults and 12 children arrived on Nauru on Wednesday morning.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...line-asylum-seeker-policy-20130821-2sahx.html

Michael Smith was on to this last night.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...re-27-women-and-children-get-on-a-plane-.html


----------



## drsmith (22 August 2013)

Another group of 40 have been sent to Manus Island. That makes about 360 out of the 3000-odd that have arrived since the commencement of the arrangement.


----------



## noco (22 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> Another group of 40 have been sent to Manus Island. That makes about 360 out of the 3000-odd that have arrived since the commencement of the arrangement.




Doc, I will call "RUDNEY RUDE" and ask him when the rest will be sent and as to what they are doing with the 2,400 plus the next boat load tomorrow and Saturday in the meantime.

What a joke this Rudd and Bourke are. Just another unholy mess for the coalition to sort out after September 7


----------



## bunyip (23 August 2013)

The more I see of the UN, the more they look like a bunch of idealistic, unrealistic fools who are out of touch with the real world.

The latest example of their stupidity comes in the form of them calling on Australia to stop the ‘cruelty’ of keeping asylum seekers in detention. 
They have about as much brains as the pathetically unintelligent twits who march down the street, ranting at the top of their voices and waving placards saying ‘FREE THE REFUGEES’, and ‘REFUGEES ARE FINE BY ME’.

Neither these twits nor the twits at the UN appear to have any understanding of the immense problems that would arise from freeing refugees without first verifying who they are, where they came from, whether they have any infectious diseases, whether they’d be a security risk to Australia, and whether they really are genuine refugees.
Gathering all this information is enormously difficult and time-consuming, made even more so by the fact that many of these people arrive without papers, or deliberately destroy them before being taken off the boats.

The UN ought to butt out – they lack the intelligence and practical thinking ability to make constructive comments on the issue of illegal boat people arrivals in Australian waters.


----------



## noco (23 August 2013)

bunyip said:


> The more I see of the UN, the more they look like a bunch of idealistic, unrealistic fools who are out of touch with the real world.
> 
> The latest example of their stupidity comes in the form of them calling on Australia to stop the ‘cruelty’ of keeping asylum seekers in detention.
> They have about as much brains as the pathetically unintelligent twits who march down the street, ranting at the top of their voices and waving placards saying ‘FREE THE REFUGEES’, and ‘REFUGEES ARE FINE BY ME’.
> ...




Banki-Ki- Moon ( UN Secretary General) is an avowed Greenie. Sarah Hanson-Young just loves him. He is also a good mate of Rudney Rude who is on the UN Climate change committee.


----------



## bunyip (23 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> Ben Fordham serves it up to Sarah Hanson-Young and judging by her reaction at the end, she didn't like it.
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/11104
> 
> On the topic of numbers, Jason Clare in a media interview has advised 300 this week (ABC radio).




Loved it! Ben Fordham tells it how it is.....this bloke is the next Ray Hadley or Alan Jones or John Laws.
It was great hearing Hanson-Young, idealistic and unrealistic as per usual for the Greens, squirming and ducking as she reeled under the truth of what Fordham was saying about her.


----------



## bunyip (23 August 2013)

Macquack said:


> DrSmith, you go on as if *no boats ever arrived at all* under John Howard.
> 
> What annoys me is when people fiegn compassion for asylum seekers who perish at sea, when they really couldn't give a rats ars*.
> 
> ...




And how exactly would you know that, eh Macquak? What makes you an authority on whether or not Ben Fordham feels compassion for the boat people who perish at sea?

Fordham is clearly dead against droves of people arriving here illegally by boat. And he’s justifiably critical of the dumb-arsed Labor and Greens policy that has allowed it to happen. But that doesn’t mean Fordham is a hard-hearted bastard who couldn’t care less when he sees the footage of people getting smashed against rocks.
Maybe he’s full of compassion for them, or maybe he feels no compassion at all. I don’t know. And neither do you. So I don’t think you’re in any position to pass judgment on Ben Fordham’s level of compassion. 

If you want to pass harsh judgment, fella, then I suggest you take aim at the ALP who caused the boat people debacle that has been so costly both in money and human life.


----------



## Calliope (24 August 2013)

> PAPUA New Guinea has suspended discussions with Australia on the resettlement of refugees, as its most senior immigration official warned that serious breaches of the asylum-seeker undertakings could "jeopardise implementation" of Kevin Rudd's offshore solution.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nds-asylum-talks/story-fn9qr68y-1226703181078

The PNG Solution was never intended to work. It was designed to hoodwink the voter until the election. Now that the wheels have fallen off, it can join the rest of Rudd's hastily thought out, ill-conceived and hugely wasteful disasters; NBN, Pink Bats, BER etc. Rudd and Burke can now sneer on the other side of their faces.


----------



## noco (24 August 2013)

Calliope said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nds-asylum-talks/story-fn9qr68y-1226703181078
> 
> The PNG Solution was never intended to work. It was designed to hoodwink the voter until the election. Now that the wheels have fallen off, it can join the rest of Rudd's hastily thought out, ill-conceived and hugely wasteful disasters; NBN, Pink Bats, BER etc. Rudd and Burke can now sneer on the other side of their faces.




Calliope, can you believe it. I heard Tony Bourke on Radio at 9am this morning stating that everything has been sorted out with PNG....No problem........lies........lies........and more lies.

Labor should cut...cut...cut...the lies and the BS.


----------



## bunyip (24 August 2013)

Rudd is showing he’s a slow learner by repeating the same mistakes that ALP Premier Anna Bligh made in the QLD election campaign. Like Rudd, Bligh had nothing but a record of incompetence to offer voters, so in desperation she embarked on a character assassination campaign against Campbell Newman. It was delightful to watch it all blow up in her face as she went down in the biggest landslide defeat in Australian political history.
Rudd’s character assassination tactics against Abbot appear to be having no more success than Bligh’s character assassination of Newman. I’m starting to think the election result won’t even be close – Abbot is on track to win comfortably. In fact if Rudd continues trying to pull the wool over our eyes with his constant lies and hypocrisy, the election result could end up being an absolute rout against the Labor Party.


----------



## drsmith (24 August 2013)

noco said:


> Calliope, can you believe it. I heard Tony Bourke on Radio at 9am this morning stating that everything has been sorted out with PNG....No problem........lies........lies........and more lies.
> 
> Labor should cut...cut...cut...the lies and the BS.



A thick plaster is constantly having to be applied to the ever widening cracks on this one.

This incident perhaps explains why only one plane load of 40 was transferred to Manus this week as opposed to five last week.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Another 11 today.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130824mediarelease_BPC_intercepts_vessel.asp

At least the brought a change of clothes.



http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...reparations-for-busy-weekend-of-welcomes.html


----------



## Julia (25 August 2013)

I don't envy any government having to deal with the government of PNG.


----------



## noco (30 August 2013)

Ha Doc, with all the hooha on the Rudd lies with Treasury and election debates , the PNG solution and new boat people arrivals has all been forgotten.

What is the latest? Have the boats stopped coming?


----------



## drsmith (30 August 2013)

The boats have slowed.

There's been three over the past week carrying 145 passengers. Over the same week about 200 have been transferred to Manus Island. This takes the total sent to Manus to about 560, still less than 20% of those who have arrived since the agreement was announced.

Another boat with about 50 on board issued a mayday just off Java around the middle of the week. There's been no further news since that I've seen.


----------



## noco (30 August 2013)

drsmith said:


> The boats have slowed.
> 
> There's been three over the past week carrying 145 passengers. Over the same week about 200 have been transferred to Manus Island. This takes the total sent to Manus to about 560, still less than 20% of those who have arrived since the agreement was announced.
> 
> Another boat with about 50 on board issued a mayday just off Java around the middle of the week. There's been no further news since that I've seen.




Thanks Doc for the latest news.


----------



## drsmith (2 September 2013)

With the recent reduction in boat arrivals, Labor is claiming victory over the problem.



> LABOR has declared victory over people-smugglers after the arrival of two lightly-loaded asylum boats in the past 24 hours.




These two boats are yet to appear on either Customs or Michael Smith's site.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-smuggling-trade/story-fn9qr68y-1226708996062


----------



## drsmith (3 September 2013)

Two boats on Customs today containing 31 arrivals each. The total that have arrived since the new PNG arrangement is 3086. Of these, approximately 600 have been transferred to Manus island in 15 transfers of around 40 each.


----------



## drsmith (4 September 2013)

How Tony Abbott's slowing the boats before he even takes office.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3841335.htm


----------



## drsmith (5 September 2013)

On Manus, the natives are getting restless.



> “They must also pay for the floating hotel they have in our sea,” Lou said.
> He was referring to an Australian navy ship with accommodation facilities anchored near the Lombrum naval base.
> Locals alleged that workers at the asylum seekers centre lived on the ship and came to work daily.
> Lou said the rubbish was producing a bad smell and attracted blow flies to Lombrum and surrounding villages in the Los Negros LLG.
> ...




It will be interesting after the election to see what state this facility is actually in.

http://www.thenational.com.pg/?q=node/55641


----------



## drsmith (6 September 2013)

Another boat with 90 passengers.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130906mediarelease_bpcassistsvessel.asp


----------



## Calliope (6 September 2013)

Cleansing the Augean Stables would have been a piece of cake compared with the mess that Abbott will have to clean up from the PNG "solution".


----------



## sails (7 September 2013)

Calliope said:


> Cleansing the Augean Stables would have been a piece of cake compared with the mess that Abbott will have to clean up from the PNG "solution".





And I expect labor supporters to ridicule Abbott for not being able to clean up the mess they created quickly enough even though they caused the massive problem.

Labor did nothing for over five years sending our Navy out to taxi people here by the thousands.  They were handed orderly border control and they will hand it back over to the libs in an awful and expensive mess.

Never let them forget it...lol


----------



## bellenuit (7 September 2013)

sails said:


> And I expect labor supporters to ridicule Abbott for not being able to clean up the mess they created quickly enough even though they caused the massive problem.
> 
> Labor did nothing for over five years sending our Navy out to taxi people here by the thousands.  They were handed orderly border control and they will hand it back over to the libs in an awful and expensive mess.
> 
> Never let them forget it...lol




In a few weeks Labor and the left in general will be back calling Abbott's policies inhumane and heartless and that we should process onshore etc. They will quickly have forgotten what they did and wanted to do when they were in charge.


----------



## So_Cynical (11 September 2013)

Another 2 illegal entry's, the first of many to come under the Abbott Government.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130908mediarelease_BPCassistsvessel.asp

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130909mediarelease_BPC-assists-vessel.asp


----------



## drsmith (11 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Another 2 illegal entry's, the first of many to come under the Abbott Government.
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130908mediarelease_BPCassistsvessel.asp
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130909mediarelease_BPC-assists-vessel.asp




When did those boats leave Indonesia ?

To give you a hint, the one with 57 also had the two overseas journalists on board.

I thought Labor stated they had this Licked. Obviously not and the Coalition are yet to be sworn in. Caretaker provisions still apply.


----------



## sails (11 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Another 2 illegal entry's, the first of many to come under the Abbott Government.
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130908mediarelease_BPCassistsvessel.asp
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130909mediarelease_BPC-assists-vessel.asp





SC - Drsmith is right - labor are still in caretaker mode until the libs are sworn in.  So you can blame labor at this stage...lol

But, in any case, it seems rather pathetic that labor caused this massive problem and then taunt the libs because they can't stop it before they are sworn in.  

It could take a while to stop the stream of boats to which Labor opened the flood gates.


----------



## So_Cynical (12 September 2013)

When will Tony stop the boats, he won the election.?


----------



## stewiejp (12 September 2013)

In all honesty, the only reason people will stop coming here via boat or any other means is if Australia becomes a less desirable place to live. I realise politicians use it as a political platform but I can't see how people are going to stop trying to get here.... it's a great country, despite our political bickering. I've traveled a bit over the years and our standard of living is massively better than the majority of other countries out there.


----------



## sails (12 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> When will Tony stop the boats, he won the election.?




Can a leftie pease tell SC  labor are still in caretaker mode until the new government is sworn in? I think he has most of this forum on ignore...lol. 

And please remind him labor caused the probem by opening the floodgates for five years...


----------



## dutchie (12 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> When will Tony stop the boats, he won the election.?




He has scheduled to do that tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## So_Cynical (14 September 2013)

dutchie said:


> He has scheduled to do that tomorrow afternoon.




2 more boats.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130912mediarelease_BPC-assists-vessel.asp

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130913_BPC-intercepts-vessel.asp

So much for Tony stopping the boats...that's 4 now since the election.


----------



## sails (14 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> 2 more boats.
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130912mediarelease_BPC-assists-vessel.asp
> 
> ...




lol So-Cynical - looks like none of your leftie friends will stop you posting silly stuff.  I think you have most of on ignore and it has been often explained to you that the coalition are not in government yet until they are sworn in next week sometime.

Until then, labor are in caretaker mode - probably still spending taxpayer funds for all we know but they will be sending the navy out to taxi the unauthorised arrivals in as they have done for nearly six years now and over 50,000 unauthorised arrivals later.

Will a leftie tell SC that he doesn't understand how a change of government works? Or will you guys sit back and let him keep making a fool of himself?...


----------



## pilots (15 September 2013)

sails said:


> lol So-Cynical - looks like none of your leftie friends will stop you posting silly stuff.  I think you have most of on ignore and it has been often explained to you that the coalition are not in government yet until they are sworn in next week sometime.
> 
> Until then, labor are in caretaker mode - probably still spending taxpayer funds for all we know but they will be sending the navy out to taxi the unauthorised arrivals in as they have done for nearly six years now and over 50,000 unauthorised arrivals later.
> 
> Will a leftie tell SC that he doesn't understand how a change of government works? Or will you guys sit back and let him keep making a fool of himself?...




So Cynical, Tony is NOT in the drivers seat yet, you are so much like the ALP, you just DON'T. Get it.


----------



## drsmith (15 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> 2 more boats.



As you've identified the boats, you can add up the number of arrivals.

Just remember to add them to Labor's tally.


----------



## drsmith (17 September 2013)

The boat arrival tally 8th to the 15th of Sept courtesy of Michael Smith is 480 on 7 boats.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...and-hopes-for-a-change-starting-tomorrow.html

There have also been no further transfers to Manus Island since September 10.

http://www.newsroom.immi.gov.au/releases


----------



## So_Cynical (17 September 2013)

Three more boats over the last couple of days....7 since the election.

Any day now Tony should start stopping those boats...any day now. 

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/mediarelease130913_BPC_intercepts_vessel.asp

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130914mediarelease_BPC_assists_vessel.asp

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/130915mediarelease_BPC_assists_vessel.asp


----------



## drsmith (17 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Three more boats over the last couple of days....7 since the election.
> 
> Any day now Tony should start stopping those boats...any day now.



Come back if the count under this Coalition government exceeds 50,000.

In the meantime, don't forget to add the above to Labor's tally as they have arrived technically under their watch as you well know.


----------



## drsmith (20 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> Some numbers.
> 
> Week ending Friday July 26: 1068 arrivals on 13 boats.
> Week ending Friday Aug 02: 619 arrivals on 8 boats.
> ...



Since Friday Aug 16 there's been another 17 boats carrying 1280 arrivals with the most recent arrival announcement being on September 15.

That's a total of 3801 since Kevin Rudd announced the PNG arrangement.

Nineteen groups consisting of one of approximately 20 and the remainder of approximately 40 each have been sent to Manus Island. The total sent is approximately 740. There have been no further transfers to Manus since September 10.


----------



## drsmith (20 September 2013)

On the ground in Indonesia.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ny-abbott-is-winning-in-bahasa-indonesia.html


----------



## sails (22 September 2013)

Apparently first boat in a week and first one since the coalition were sworn in.  So all this carry-on about hiding arrivals when it seems none had arrived until now.



> The boat currently at Flying Fish Cove was escorted to the Australian territory by the HMAS Maitland this afternoon. It is believed there are about 30 people onboard, but a spokesman for Immigration Minister Scott Morrison declined to confirm the number onboard or discuss the boat’s arrival.
> 
> “Briefings on these matters will be made under Operation Sovereign Borders on a weekly basis,” the spokesman said.
> 
> The first briefing is scheduled for tomorrow. At that briefing, the Coalition is expected to reveal how often it will provide other details about asylum seekers including the numbers in each detention facility.




- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...y-fn59niix-1226724652217#sthash.ebO6bwCq.dpuf


----------



## So_Cynical (22 September 2013)

Another boat today so the news is reporting.

I would link to the customs site like the ASF right used to do but there is no press release about the arrival...noalition policy is to not release news of boat arrivals, 6 boats by my count since the election.

Strange that i cant remember Tony ever chanting anything about "stop discussing the boats"


----------



## pixel (22 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Another boat today so the news is reporting.
> 
> I would link to the customs site like the ASF right used to do but there is no press release about the arrival...noalition policy is to not release news of boat arrivals, 6 boats by my count since the election.
> 
> Strange that i cant remember Tony ever chanting anything about "stop discussing the boats"




The locals on CI promised to brief the Press every time another boat arrives.
They started today, even sent some footage. The question remains whether our new Rulers will reprimand media organisations that defy their attempts to sweep bad news under the carpet.


----------



## Julia (22 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Another boat today so the news is reporting.
> 
> I would link to the customs site like the ASF right used to do but there is no press release about the arrival...noalition policy is to not release news of boat arrivals, 6 boats by my count since the election.
> 
> Strange that i cant remember Tony ever chanting anything about "stop discussing the boats"






pixel said:


> The locals on CI promised to brief the Press every time another boat arrives.
> They started today, even sent some footage. The question remains whether our new Rulers will reprimand media organisations that defy their attempts to sweep bad news under the carpet.



You both seem entirely determined not to give a changed perspective under the new government a chance.

Mr Morrison suggests that the daily reporting of boat arrivals was giving people smugglers an advantage, and that instead he will issue a weekly briefing to the media.  The first of these is apparently due tomorrow.

But of course you won't even consider that, and instead seem intent on demonising the Coalition's policy before it has even had a chance to get off the ground.

Beats me why you won't hold off your determined anti government ranting until at least after Mr Abbott et al have met with the Indonesian government in a week's time.


----------



## drsmith (22 September 2013)

30 vs 50,000+.

That's where the ledger currently stands between this government and the previous Labor administrations of Gillard and Rudd.


----------



## Whiskers (22 September 2013)

Julia said:


> Beats me why you won't hold off your determined anti government ranting until at least after Mr Abbott et al have met with the Indonesian government in a week's time.




Rudd's PNG solution seemed to put a significant dent in the flow leading up to the election... but I suspect many people are wondering why the flow picked up again after the election, and to pick-up on sails point, a few arrived between the election and swearing in.

It should be clear by now that my foot isn't firmly planted in any political camp, rather the camp of responsible , trustworthy, accountable government and sustainable policies.

Julia I think there are a couple of fundamental overriding points here.

So_Cynical, albeit in a bit of a sarcastic tone, correctly points out;
Strange that i cant remember Tony ever chanting anything about "stop discussing the boats"​
Realistically, given his emphasis on accountability and the saturation of his election slogan "Stop the Boats'' to possible clichÃ© status, he needs to be consistent to maintain integrity.

In the political tactics game, if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. He can hardly cry foul with ant credability.

Secondly even if, as I postulated on another thread earlier, the intent was to deprive the traffickers and their clients of information, it is a dumb idea for the same reason as going to Indonesia to buy potential smuggler boats to deprive the smugglers of their main tool... it has no realistic chance of working. 

I wonder how we would feel if say Indonesia adopted a policy to come to Australia to buy up vacant housing for example for a political agenda. In both cases it corrupts the micro and macro economy and causes demand and cost aberrations for Indonesians who can only afford cheap boats or are in the business of reconditioning boats. 

But the main point is as Pixel points out, in this day and age the government has no real chance of suppressing information of this nature, where an 'industry' can easily develop to meet that demand for information, the hourly news cycle.

Remember the much touted main theme of Abbotts stop the boats policy was that once the world knew he won office and boat people would be processed offshore and would NEVER get permanent visas... the boats would dwindle to a trickle again.

In theory, that would be a realistic expectation. So what could be motivating the smugglers to keep it up?

I suspect a few reasons.

Firstly, Abbott fell into the same trap it bagged Labor for... broadcasting it's intention before it discussed it with, in this case Indonesia.
Indonesia took offence to the idea of forcing the boats back
Indonesia took offence at the boat buying idea... interfering in another sovereign country
Abbott cutting the rate of growth in, and distribution of, foreign aid... leaving Indonesia feeling squeezed for foreign aid.
The smugglers and their corrupt public officials have taken a pragmatic view that Abbott won with a smaller swing of votes to him than others and may not last.
The bottom line... people who voted strongly to stop the boats see any attempt to restrict or delay information or fudge the numbers as a concern that something is not working to plan? 

Is there a problem with PNG now also, since PNG has also been displeased with Abbotts comments and may have concerns about cuts or redistribution of foreign aid, undermining the Rudd agreement.


----------



## drsmith (23 September 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Is there a problem with PNG now also, since PNG has also been displeased with Abbotts comments and may have concerns about cuts or redistribution of foreign aid, undermining the Rudd agreement.



If transfers to Nauru are anything to go by, it would seem this arrangement has indeed run into strife.

The last transfer under the caretaker administration of Labor was on September 10, over a week before the Coalition was sworn in. This arrangement has helped slow the boats, of that there is no doubt but it was only ever designed to get Labor to the election.

The overall theme of Kevin Rudd's concession speech (or should I say victory speech ??) is further proof of that. The Prime minister who reignited this problem in the first place was never going to solve it.

I would also point out that at least three of the boat arrivals that arrived after the September 7 election result would have departed before the poll itself.

Before condemning the Abbott government, it might be worthwhile giving them a chance. Perhaps not as much latitude as Labor with over 50,000 arrivals by boat and over 1000 deaths at sea, but a reasonable time at least to see if they can solve this problem.

On the matter of boat arrival announcements,



> Mr Morrison said weekly briefings would be held in lieu of contemporaneous announcements, with the first scheduled to take place today. The minister defended the new arrangements, which have been criticised by Labor as needlessly secretive, saying people-smugglers exploited the information. "Taking control of how that information is released denies people-smugglers the opportunity to exploit such information," he said in a statement. "Information on arrivals will be provided and it will be provided in a way that supports the objectives of the operation to stop the boats."
> 
> In an apparent reference to the frequent drownings or disasters at sea that befell asylum boats and their passengers, Mr Morrison said additional briefings would be held "as necessary in relation to specific events". Other information, such as the number of bridging visas issued, would be updated monthly, Mr Morrison said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...der-and-blackout/story-fn9hm1gu-1226724814899


----------



## Whiskers (23 September 2013)

I see your point drsmith, as a narrative, but the point I'm trying to make is more from a diagnostic perspective. 

Do smugglers rely on government release of arrival information for feedback of their success? I doubt it. The press releases don't identify the names of the boat or people. How would a smuggler know if his boat got through?

Remember, the smugglers also prefer less media attention, after all their business is by nature covert.

They used mobile phones and radio long before the media started paying close attention. Smugglers have their own lines of communication and information and are more likely to perceive a government clamming down on releasing arrivals information as a sign of government embarrassment. 

Logically, prompt release and widespread media attention of boat sinking's and drowning's of asylum seekers goes to erode asylum seeker confidence in a smugglers business. Why would our government not want to get this information out asap to help discourage the trade?

Logically and analytically, in a nutshell it was the wide spread media attention of both Abbott and Rudd aligning on the same policy of no asylum seekers would set foot on Australian soil with the announcement of the PNG deal that resulted in a substantial drop in arrivals.

So to repeat the obvious question, why have the numbers apparently started rising again? 

Isn't  nit picking about whether a boat left before the election or swearing in of the gov completely irrelevant? After all the smugglers know what the polls were saying weeks before the election, so isn't it reasonable to suspect they had better intelligence about how the Abbott plan was going to be received by the Indonesian gov than we do?

While the three word slogans were music to the ears of many Aus voters, I suggest the smugglers had intelligence that the other party necessary to cooperate to achieve them, simply would not. Then there is also the issue of the legality in international Law of how the details of Abbotts plans, stand up. While effectively similar to Rudds plan, is there a difference of legal weakness they know they can beat with Abbott's plan?

Remembering also there are quite sophisticated networks of high powered legal people highly motivated to defeat these new gov initiatives and getting feedback into the Asylum seeker community.

drsmith, regarding "it was only ever designed to get Labor to the election", seems a bit cynical. Do you believe the PNG government signed an agreement they knew was just for the purpose of helping Rudd win a few more seats than Gillard would have?


----------



## drsmith (23 September 2013)

Whiskers said:


> drsmith, regarding "it was only ever designed to get Labor to the election", seems a bit cynical.






> The Minister has also revealed the previous government had not funded its offshore processing operations on Manus Island beyond this year.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-...rison-details-asylum-seeker-movements/4974758

523 Arrivals in the past two weeks is the number given by Scott Morrison. Arrivals announcements on the customs site between the election date and when the new government was sworn in was 440 from 7 boats (not including 12 crew). 

That would suggest 83 arrivals since the Coalition was sworn in.


----------



## Whiskers (23 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-...rison-details-asylum-seeker-movements/4974758
> 
> 523 Arrivals in the past two weeks is the number given by Scott Morrison. Arrivals announcements on the customs site between the election date and when the new government was sworn in was 440 from 7 boats (not including 12 crew).
> 
> That would suggest 83 arrivals since the Coalition was sworn in.




Again, drsmith... what has the swearing in date got to do with the flow of boats, given the swearing in was a week and a half after the result was known and the policy position was well broadcast long before that?

and from previous post...


> drsmith, regarding "it was only ever designed to get Labor to the election", seems a bit cynical. *Do you believe the PNG government signed an agreement they knew was just for the purpose of helping Rudd win a few more seats than Gillard would have?*




Re: "_The Minister has also revealed the previous government had not funded its offshore processing operations on Manus Island beyond this year._" that's not surprising considering the change of policies with Rudd and his reputation for slack budgeting. But, are you suggesting the smugglers knew this and is why the numbers have not stopped?  

I'm looking for some logic or analytical basis to attach your statements too.


----------



## pixel (23 September 2013)

Julia said:


> You both seem entirely determined not to give a changed perspective under the new government a chance.
> 
> Mr Morrison suggests that the daily reporting of boat arrivals was giving people smugglers an advantage, and that instead he will issue a weekly briefing to the media.  The first of these is apparently due tomorrow.
> 
> ...




I'm nor demonising, Julia;
But I am deeply suspicious when the first policy change of a new Gov'mint consists of - yet another - delaying tactic. For that, I'm holding a mirror in front of our budgie smuggler, who, for 6 years, has done nothing but criticize and block. I don't deny anybody's right to fawn over him, nor do I complain when a great many (too many) posters on this Forum bag everything the previous government did as "personal ambition", while overlooking the same motivation and procrastination by the new broom.

As someone has coined the phrase: "I don't discriminate. I hate all the barstuds alike."

btw, nobody objected in 2010 when I gave Forrest Gump permission to re-publish my PM-Guru satire http://forrestthinks.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/some-light-relief.html


----------



## Julia (23 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> If transfers to Nauru are anything to go by, it would seem this arrangement has indeed run into strife.
> 
> The last transfer under the caretaker administration of Labor was on September 10, over a week before the Coalition was sworn in. This arrangement has helped slow the boats, of that there is no doubt but it was only ever designed to get Labor to the election.



ABC Radio news today around lunchtime included the statement that Mr Morrison said removals of asylum seekers has been stepped up :


> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison touts 'rapid increase' in asylum seeker transfers
> By chief political correspondent Emma Griffiths
> 
> *Updated 52 minutes ago
> ...







> Before condemning the Abbott government, it might be worthwhile giving them a chance. Perhaps not as much latitude as Labor with over 50,000 arrivals by boat and over 1000 deaths at sea, but a reasonable time at least to see if they can solve this problem.



+1.  All I'm asking for also.
We don't know how successful the Coalition's policy will be.  They haven't even had the initial discussion in person with Indonesia yet.  
There just seems to be an unnecessary determination on the part of a few people to label the new government a failure when they've not even been sworn in for a week.


----------



## dutchie (23 September 2013)

Julia said:


> There just seems to be an unnecessary determination on the part of a few people to label the new government a failure when they've not even been sworn in for a week.




It's just payback time. Don't feed the trolls.


----------



## chiff (23 September 2013)

As all oppostions find when they become governments-that is easier to be outside the tent throwing stones.
Whatever happened to Suu Kyi now that she is inside the tent in Myanmar?
I think that we find that in our own lives.Perhaps we should ask ourselves -what would I do in that position?-and then maybe we would not throw as many stones.
Wouldn't be as much fun or sport though.


----------



## sails (23 September 2013)

chiff said:


> As all oppostions find when they become governments-that is easier to be outside the tent throwing stones.
> Whatever happened to Suu Kyi now that she is inside the tent in Myanmar?
> I think that we find that in our own lives.Perhaps we should ask ourselves -what would I do in that position?-and then maybe we would not throw as many stones.
> Wouldn't be as much fun or sport though.





We should also consider the thousands of genuine refugees who do not have money and expensive luggage to force their way to Australia.  I believe these genuine ones should be given first priority and I understand that is the direction the coalition would like to take once they have stemmed the massive flow of unauthorised arrivals left to them by labor.


----------



## drsmith (23 September 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Monday September 23*

Boat arrivals since the new government was sworn in (18/9 to 23/9): 1 boat, 31 passengers and 2 crew.
Boat arrivals during the post-election caretaker period: (8/9 to 21/9): 7 boats, 475 passengers and 16 crew. All 7 of these boats were subject to individual media release under the previous government's policy.

There are currently 798 asylum seekers on Manus Island and 710 on Nauru. A further 24 are expected to be transferred to Manus and 34 to Nauru late Tuesday. The target turnaround period for transfer to an offshore processing centre is 48 hours.

Since September 8, a total of 4 asylum seekers have voluntarily returned to their country of origin (2 from Manus and 2 from Nauru).

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-...-operation-sovereign-borders-briefing/4975630

Chris Bowen's response and it would seem an absence of journalists.


----------



## Julia (23 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> Chris Bowen's response and it would seem an absence of journalists.



LOL, how embarrassing for Mr Bowen.


----------



## Whiskers (23 September 2013)

pixel said:


> I'm nor demonising, Julia;
> But I am deeply suspicious when the first policy change of a new Gov'mint consists of - yet another - delaying tactic. For that, I'm holding a mirror in front of our budgie smuggler, who, for 6 years, has done nothing but criticize and block. I don't deny anybody's right to fawn over him, nor do I complain when a great many (too many) posters on this Forum bag everything the previous government did as "personal ambition", while overlooking the same motivation and procrastination by the new broom.
> 
> As someone has coined the phrase: "I don't discriminate. I hate all the barstuds alike."




I know you used it just as a figure of speech, but I try not to get so emotionally evolved to the point of hating people, as some of these posters who seem to love plastering derogatory language all over people they despise... but surely detest being plastered with such themselves.

*Pixel, I agree entirely with your point. I find you one of a seemingly fewer posters who can detach themselves form the personalities and politics and ask the obvious questions that any reasonable analytical brain would.*

... and Julia, I'd expect a bit more logic from you than apparently having no idea how the plan might eventually work, but seemingly prepared to give them a long leash to demonstrate their success or otherwise. How long?

Does there not appear to be some obvious contradictions on standards pre to post election as well as their stated policy?

I'm (if I may loose my cool for a sec) as pissed off as most other people with the drain on our welfare funds handed out to these people, far in excess of normal welfare payments and want these illegal smugglers shut down as much as anyone, so they are forced to use normal immigration procedures. 

I fully support the principle of granting political Asylum where due... but as plainly seen these boat people have about $5,000 for each family person to pay the smugglers, say $20,000 for a small family, and often much more extra to draw on later. So logically this cash each would keep them very comfortably for quite some time in many other Arab or SE Asian countries. Applying a bit of logic it's not too difficult to see most are not true refugees, but imposters preying on our bleeding hearts.

Equally, however when the gov changes tac too much and starts to throw up a shroud of secrecy or delaying information, anyone except their hard core blue blood supporters starts to question what is going on here... especially when there is no factual or logical foundation to delaying notification of arrivals. 

*I'll repeat again, the smugglers have their own radio and phone communication systems, they don't rely on our media for their intelligence... But on the contrary, if the boats were actually being stopped or the occupants redirected at a faster rate releasing that information in the public domain is a sure fire way to damage the credibility of the smugglers and cause people to reconsider. * 

I find it an insult on out intelligence for the minister to portray that withholding information on arrivals helps damage the smuggler trade. Given the hopeless chances of a couple of their illogical plans (as previously mentioned) in succeeding, I'm really starting to question the intelligence as well as the ultra-motive this all seems to be leading too.

Weren't we all led to believe the coalition will stop the boats in their tracks once in office! So why is Morrison skiting about turning these people around within 48 hours... but in the next breath he's talking about heaps of extra spending being allocated to accommodate lots more arrivals into the next year or so?

Morrison harped on about funding not being provided past this year... hint, hint... building up to... ooh to hell with our reducing spending and return to surplus as soon as possible... excuse to retain big spending to do some different pork barrelling. 

Another issue I'm concerned about is bringing the military into the front line of the reporting process. Smells a bit of tit for tat politicising gov departments especially the services. It's good as promoted to have a General coordinate the activities and Ok to reorganise, if that is what they are really doing, and not just a lot of noise to change a couple of hats... BUT, to have a General in our military stand up at a press conference virtually singing the praises of the government position sends all the wrong messages. The military should be working behind the political scenes full stop, not strung up like a political puppet.


----------



## drsmith (23 September 2013)

Julia said:


> LOL, how embarrassing for Mr Bowen.



Yes, only the camera crews turned up and after he was advised of that, he had a second crack at offering himself up for questions. I suppose one can always hope.

On this topic at least, Labor might have to include a fake journalist or two at their pressers to ask a dixer.


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2013)

Some interesting information from the inside, both figuratively and literally.



> A people smuggler jailed in Indonesia has ridiculed Scott Morrison's vow of silence about new asylum boat arrivals, saying the smuggling networks do not rely on Australian government press releases for their information.
> 
> The smuggler, Dawood Amiri, told Fairfax Media that the policy "won't change anything" from the syndicates' point of view.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-silence-on-boat-arrivals-20130924-2ub2z.html


----------



## Whiskers (24 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> Some interesting information from the inside, both figuratively and literally.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-silence-on-boat-arrivals-20130924-2ub2z.html




That's the way dr! That's what I'm talkin about. 

Now I wonder why any reasonable minister wouldn't be aware of that and saved himself all the embarrassment of trying to explain the equivalent of trying to push **** up hill? 

Or have I spoken too soon... will he amend the policy to include buying all the satellite phones in Indonesia too.

This is why people wonder if they've done the right thing, when their new man talks sooo much nonsense.

I'll let you in on a secret observation... I initially thought Morrison was a quite intelligent and very articulate person. He would step in beside Abbott in press conferences pre election and rattle of stuff with out any hums or arrs very clearly... however in the first video of him sitting across the table from the General and reaching over to shake hands, I got a little bit of an inkling of that handshake and a boofhead Mark Latham image.


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2013)

If the smugglers are complaining, the government's obviously doing something right. Otherwise it would be business as usual.

Either that or Dawood Amiri is a little bored in his cell. Either way, the insights he offers on the internals further highlight what is wrong about the trade in the first place and may assist in Operation Sovereign Borders.


----------



## Whiskers (24 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> If the smugglers are complaining, the government's obviously doing something right. Otherwise it would be business as usual.




Hardly the smugglers complaining dr, more like laughing. All this information has been broadcast with interviews and undercover reports from Indonesia for many years.



> Either that or Dawood Amiri is a little bored in his cell. Either way, the insights he offers on the internals further highlight what is wrong about the trade in the first place and may assist in Operation Sovereign Borders.




No doubt he's bored passing a few years away in Jail until he gets released and goes home to do it all again. It's also well known for years that the money they make helps to compensate for their time in jail if they get caught, similar to the illegal fishing industry poaching in our northern waters. Hence the king-pins with their corrupt associates in Indonesia send lowly skippers to sail the boat. They get far less Jail time.

They can turn the boats back under cover of media blackout, that's ok by me to a certain extent... but the two main ways they will stop the trade is, simple principles of crime, motive and opportunity;

take away the incentive to come by boat, with no prospect of landing on Aus soil and never getting a visa, 
the other is targeting the kingpins, the smuggler. The smuggler needs a certain amount of cooperation from corrupt Indonesian officials to organise his trade.
This is the part where rash public statements like turning back the boats quite physically and buying potential smuggler boats, impinge on the respect, customs and cooperation with working inside another sovereign country with our federal police. 

If literally turning back boats and discretely buying potential smuggler boats in Indonesia was to be a significant part of his strategy, Abbott would have been wise to say nothing pre election and just send patrol boats out and turn boats around and agents out to buy the boats unannounced and let the results speak for themselves with press releases.

They got  the parts to shut up about and brag about all mixed up. It's a bit akin to the dumb criminal stories like...

A woman was reporting her car as stolen, and mentioned that there was a car phone in it.  The policeman taking the report called the phone and told the guy that answered that he had read the ad in the newspaper and wanted to buy the car.  They arranged to meet, and the thief was arrested.


----------



## IFocus (24 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> If the smugglers are complaining, the government's obviously doing something right. Otherwise it would be business as usual.
> 
> Either that or Dawood Amiri is a little bored in his cell. Either way, the insights he offers on the internals further highlight what is wrong about the trade in the first place and may assist in Operation Sovereign Borders.




Can't remember an Australian government suppressing information on the basis of operational matters when it so obviously political another Abbott lie about transparency cannot wait for what else we don't need to know about.


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2013)

IFocus said:


> Can't remember an Australian government suppressing information on the basis of operational matters when it so obviously political another Abbott lie about transparency cannot wait for what else we don't need to know about.






> ''Labor was impotent in response to arrivals. All they could do was announce them and run a water taxi service,'' Mr Morrison said. *''Under the Howard government, suspected illegal entry vessels were not announced on arrival.* That was the practice of the failed Rudd and Gillard governments.''




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...al-blackout-says-minister-20130922-2u81u.html

My bolds.

Whiskers,
With regard to Indonesia, there would no doubt be discussions going on behind closed doors.


----------



## So_Cynical (24 September 2013)

A big day today with 15 new boat arrivals...nothing in the news of course because its a secret....sshhhh.


----------



## noco (24 September 2013)

IFocus said:


> Can't remember an Australian government suppressing information on the basis of operational matters when it so obviously political another Abbott lie about transparency cannot wait for what else we don't need to know about.




Well buddy, it has become a military operation and you know the old saying goes "LOSE LIPS SINKS SHIPS".

The ADF have been trained not to telegraph their strategy to the enemy and in this case the people smugglers are the enemy. Surprise is the element of success.


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> A big day today with 15 new boat arrivals...



You wish.


----------



## So_Cynical (24 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> You wish.




Its true! prove me wrong...link me to a press release.


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Its true! prove me wrong...link me to a press release.



They'll be one next Monday.


----------



## drsmith (25 September 2013)

Over 50000 boat arrivals and over 1000 deaths at sea during their time in office and Labor have learned nothing.

Listen to the audio in the link below of Bill shorten and Anthony Albanese from just before one minute in.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-cabbie-just-had-bill-shorten-in-the-cab.html


----------



## Whiskers (25 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...al-blackout-says-minister-20130922-2u81u.html
> 
> My bolds.
> 
> ...




If the press release of the Indonesian Foreign minister is any indication, Bishop is clearly in denial and not on the same page, so they have a lot of back room discussions to go to get something going again.

While it's one thing for us all to have an ideological desire to stop the boats, it's quite another to effectively interact with the necessary people to achieve that. The absolute key to prompt success is NOT to insult the other party with broadcasting intentions that interfere with their sovereign rights. As mentioned earlier, it would've been much wiser to shut-up about the boat buying and forcibly turning boats back and amplify the broadcasting of arrivals, brag about the trend going down.

My concern that Abbott and Morrison have sent the wrong impression and got the Indonesian Gov off side has been confirmed. They are deluding themselves if they can stop the boats without their cooperation.

One big difference between the Howard plan they portray as the solution, is that it ignores what was different then to now in the holistic scheme of things. Getting the Indonesian gov offside just makes it all even harder.

This is a classic example of conflict resolution. The principles are the same as between a couple of people or two countries. If you comprehend what Abbott, Morrison and now Bishop has done wrong, collectively (worse than Labor) you will appreciate why it's going to get worse again before it gets better.

Clue, one example... whereas the vast majority of boats were trained (for want of a better phrase)  to head for Xmas Island, watch them scatter all across the northern coastline again, but in much greater numbers (than Howard era) and much more experience at stretching our patrol boat resources.


----------



## moXJO (25 September 2013)

We can have bucket loads of assumptions, but until we get a couple of months data we don't have much to go on. Unless of course your'e a labor supporter, then you can just make up the biggest doom scenario you can think of.


----------



## bellenuit (25 September 2013)

Whiskers said:


> If the press release of the Indonesian Foreign minister is any indication, Bishop is clearly in denial and not on the same page, so they have a lot of back room discussions to go to get something going again.




Although I agree that the policy of buying particular boats to deter specific asylum operations and indicating that they will pay Indonesians for information that might deter boat passages was stupid, the fact that the Indonesian Foreign Minister was not on board with what Bishop had to say is not necessarily a bad thing. It might simply indicate that an Australian Foreign Minister is finally willing to stand up against Indonesia when it comes to AUSTRALIAN SOVEREIGN RIGHTS rather than kowtowing to them as they have in the past in case they might be offended. We have already seen Indonesian ministers (or perhaps just MPs) telling us that they want us to abandon our plain label packaging of cigarettes because apparently Indonesia is where much of our cigarettes are imported from and it might impede their exports, and just yesterday we had another Minister/MP suggest that the Indonesian Navy should help refugees travel to Australia.

I don't know who has the most to lose if our relationship sours, but there are times when we must stand up for ourselves no matter what the risks. I think we will earn more respect in the long run.


----------



## Whiskers (25 September 2013)

moXJO said:


> We can have bucket loads of assumptions, but until we get a couple of months data we don't have much to go on. Unless of course your'e a labor supporter, then you can just make up the biggest doom scenario you can think of.




It's more than assumptions moXJO.

It's about a number of well established scientifically proven principles of behavioural psychology that are increasingly in deficient in the application of their policy, as opposed to the principle of it that most of us endorse.

Time for another dumb criminal story...

A motorist was unknowingly caught in an automated speed trap that measured his speed using radar and photographed his car.  He later received in the mail a ticket for $40 and a photo of his car.  Instead of payment, he sent the police department a photograph of $40.  Several days later, he received a letter from the police that contained another picture... of handcuffs.  The motorist promptly sent the money for the fine.

The moral of this one goes along the lines... if you treat a strong power with contempt... you'd better be sure you hold the bigger stick, or you will be forced to capitulate.

Even if our stick is big enough to enable us to stand up to Indonesia and completely ignore them, that won't by necessity stop the boats... on the contrary, it probably guarantees less or no cooperation and even aiding the asylum seekers to pass by Indonesia to their final destination, Aus.


----------



## Whiskers (25 September 2013)

bellenuit said:


> Although I agree that the policy of buying particular boats to deter specific asylum operations and indicating that they will pay Indonesians for information that might deter boat passages was stupid, the fact that the Indonesian Foreign Minister was not on board with what Bishop had to say is not necessarily a bad thing. It might simply indicate that an Australian Foreign Minister is finally willing to stand up against Indonesia when it comes to AUSTRALIAN SOVEREIGN RIGHTS rather than kowtowing to them as they have in the past in case they might be offended. We have already seen Indonesian ministers (or perhaps just MPs) telling us that they want us to abandon our plain label packaging of cigarettes because apparently Indonesia is where much of our cigarettes are imported from and it might impede their exports, and just yesterday we had another Minister/MP suggest that the Indonesian Navy should help refugees travel to Australia.




I agree with your sentiment there bellenuit. I've dealt with the wisdom aspect in the above post.

The cigarette labelling issue is a bit different. We can implement that policy very effectively at our borders through immigration and freight check points. If only the asylum seekers would cue up at the border check points... well over time they sorta did under Labor, at Xmas Island. 

Remembering the power brokers in Labor essentially welcomed the boats, but only paid a bit of lip-service to stopping them in the name of national security as in filtering out terrorists and criminals... they orchestrated a system of very organised chaos where boats were encouraged to go to Xmas Island.

What, is shaping up now is dis-organised chaos where the corrupt officials in the Indonesian government will actively assist the smugglers more in defiance and the boats will be spread far and wide all along the coast again.

Hence, the need for a bit of sensitivity, clever diplomacy and some sort of carrot to enduce a less than cooperative country to do what we want.

I've earlier mentioned they stuffed up the sensitivity part a bit, the diplomacy bit isn't going great and the carrot, financial aid is under threat by definition, from Abbotts foreign aid policy. It may take a lot more carrot now to get them back to a reasonable cooperation level.  



> I don't know who has the most to lose if our relationship sours, but there are times when we must stand up for ourselves no matter what the risks. I think we will earn more respect in the long run.




I agree with the notion of standing up for oneself, but there is an art to it, especially if you want to continue to 'cooperate' with them. We've steadily increased cooperation with them over the years with various governments and there was nothing to indicate that wouldn't continue with the ability of federal police to operate in Indonesia.


----------



## drsmith (25 September 2013)

Whiskers said:


> I agree with the notion of standing up for oneself, but there is an art to it.



You've bored me into submission.


----------



## Whiskers (25 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> You've bored me into submission.




Thank you dr. 

“I'd tried to straighten him out, but there's only so much you can do for a person who thinks Auschwitz is a brand of beer.” 
― David Sedaris


----------



## drsmith (25 September 2013)

A media report of one boat carrying 19 passengers arriving at Darwin. Labor, even after its record on this issue is still banging on and the Greens are up to their usual nonsense. 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...of-boat-arrival-in-darwin-20130925-2udqo.html


----------



## Julia (25 September 2013)

moXJO said:


> We can have bucket loads of assumptions, but until we get a couple of months data we don't have much to go on. Unless of course your'e a labor supporter, then you can just make up the biggest doom scenario you can think of.



You're wasting your time, moXJO.  Such logic has no place in the determination of the critics of the new government.



bellenuit said:


> It might simply indicate that an Australian Foreign Minister is finally willing to stand up against Indonesia when it comes to AUSTRALIAN SOVEREIGN RIGHTS rather than kowtowing to them as they have in the past in case they might be offended. We have already seen Indonesian ministers (or perhaps just MPs) telling us that they want us to abandon our plain label packaging of cigarettes because apparently Indonesia is where much of our cigarettes are imported from and it might impede their exports, and just yesterday we had another Minister/MP suggest that the Indonesian Navy should help refugees travel to Australia.
> 
> I don't know who has the most to lose if our relationship sours, but there are times when we must stand up for ourselves no matter what the risks. I think we will earn more respect in the long run.



+1.  For a start, the government might consider reminding Indonesia of the amount of aid they receive from Australia.



drsmith said:


> You've bored me into submission.



Or, in my case, bored me into ceasing reading the posts.


----------



## moXJO (25 September 2013)

Whiskers said:


> It's more than assumptions moXJO.
> 
> It's about a number of well established scientifically proven principles of behavioural psychology that are increasingly in deficient in the application of their policy, as opposed to the principle of it that most of us endorse.
> 
> ...




I don't see many facts. Indo is just posturing to the media.


----------



## Ves (25 September 2013)

Julia said:


> You're wasting your time, moXJO.  Such logic has no place in the determination of the critics of the new government.



Whilst I have no interest in the current Liberal vs Labor bickering going on in this discussion - That's an interesting point.

And it has a lot of relevance.  And not just in the context that you have placed it in.    There have been numerous studies completed by behavioural psychologists over the years that mostly conclude that the appearance of logic / facts in a political discussion generally make the belief of the opposing side even stronger and more oppositional. As if the facts were counter-arguments to the viewpoint that they were aiding!

I have seen it play out on forums such as this one,  by both the right and left time and time again.  It's interesting how it works.   Even those who think they are immune to it slip up, often without knowing it.  We all do, in fact.  There's really no such thing as objective debate - it is counter-intuitive to the human mind.

Anyone interested can do their own research on the subject.


----------



## So_Cynical (25 September 2013)

This could be both the making and the downfall of the noalition....for 5 years we heard 3 or 4000 times Tony chant "stop the boats" "stop the boats" "stop the boats" sort of dawned on me today that Tony better stop those boats because there's a hell of an expectation from the right and centre right.

I mean if he cant deliver 100% or even 95% he's politically a goner....a 1 term wonder, credibility and believability 0, "stop the boats" wasn't a throw away election slogan like Julia's carbon tax blunder, stop the boats was a mantra.


----------



## drsmith (25 September 2013)

moXJO said:


> I don't see many facts. Indo is just posturing to the media.



it wouldn't surprise me if behind the scenes, our government already has the active cooperation of the Indonesian government.

Something's given the government the confidence to go for a 48hr turnaround to Manus or Nauru and the boats and there's only been 2 boats with a total of 50 passengers in the week since the government was sworn in.

- - - Updated - - -



So_Cynical said:


> This could be both the making and the downfall of the noalition....for 5 years we heard 3 or 4000 times Tony chant "stop the boats" "stop the boats" "stop the boats" sort of dawned on me today that Tony better stop those boats because there's a hell of an expectation from the right and centre right.
> 
> I mean if he cant deliver 100% or even 95% he's politically a goner....a 1 term wonder, credibility and believability 0, "stop the boats" wasn't a throw away election slogan like Julia's carbon tax blunder, stop the boats was a mantra.



You'll have to wait a little longer to be critical.

We're not at 50,000 yet, only 50.


----------



## Whiskers (25 September 2013)

Julia said:


> +1.  For a start, the government might consider reminding Indonesia of the amount of aid they receive from Australia.




You mean like they did Fiji... and look where that got them.

Look how many small Island nations have been bought over by foreign aid from China when Aus and others tried to dictate to hard to them.

You are still missing the point, Julia. You ought to know threats and intimidation is not the way to approach conflict resolution... let alone to start off a new relationship. 



> Or, in my case, bored me into ceasing reading the posts.




I'll bet you're not! You just can't resist. 



Ves said:


> Whilst I have no interest in the current Liberal vs Labor bickering going on in this discussion...




I'm glad you recognise that point... although I hope you have read enough of the forum to note that I'm not either, atm a little bit partial to National philosophy (see Barnaby Joyce for PM among other posts)



> There's really no such thing as objective debate - it is counter-intuitive to the human mind.




I think I know what you mean Ves, but, let me put it this way. There is a huge difference between debate and dialogue. Don't take my word for it, but structured dialogue is a technique that expert peace makers use. As you suggest, it would be helpful for more people to research a bit more.

Secondly, ignoring the flack I'm getting from some, the objective, my critique is of the process and apparent lack of knowledge thereof by Abbott's team, as demonstrated by the adverse reactions from Indonesia, that could have been avoided with a bit more tact. 

Counterintuitive - Contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate: "Scientists made clear what may at first seem counterintuitive, that the capacity to be pleasant toward a fellow creature is ... hard work" (Natalie Angier).http://www.thefreedictionary.com/counterintuitive

Julia, re your theory of just leave them alone for awhile to see what they can do... there's another wise old saying; you can pray to God but you better start rowing for shore in the meantime. 

While it's good to have faith, it's better to take control and do something yourself to make sure you actually get to your desired destination. That action is like shouting ahoy, 'hey you fools, you're going the wrong way' when your rescuers are blind-sighted by their own grandiosity.


----------



## Whiskers (26 September 2013)

moXJO said:


> I don't see many facts. Indo is just posturing to the media.




“Science is about recognizing patterns. Everything depends on the ground rules of the observer: if someone refuses to look at obvious patterns because they consider a pattern should not be there, then they will see nothing but the reflection of their own prejudices.” 
― Christopher Knight,

I could claim credit for the words, but I'll be happy if the wisdom is understood!


----------



## noco (26 September 2013)

After reading this link I could not believe how stupid Shorten can be by saying on ABC this morning that he is pro refugees.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-on-immigration/story-fnj45fvb-1226727154767


----------



## drsmith (26 September 2013)

There's nothing wrong with being pro-immigration where it's to the benefit of our nation, but pro-refugee purely as an ideological objective ?

Labor is getting more like the Greens every day. No wonder its primary support is at its lowest in 100 years.


----------



## noco (26 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> There's nothing wrong with being pro-immigration where it's to the benefit of our nation, but pro-refugee purely as an ideological objective ?
> 
> Labor is getting more like the Greens every day. No wonder its primary support is at its lowest in 100 years.




Doc, I took it as a referral to the boat people.


----------



## Julia (26 September 2013)

noco said:


> After reading this link I could not believe how stupid Shorten can be by saying on ABC this morning that he is pro refugees.



He said yesterday that he believes asylum seekers in community detention should have the right to work.
This, after espousing the policy of no work during the election and before.


----------



## drsmith (26 September 2013)

noco said:


> Doc, I took it as a referral to the boat people.



It won't be long and they'll be back on their moral high horse about how bad offshore processing is.


----------



## drsmith (26 September 2013)

If Indonesia is trying to test the Abbott Government's resolve on this, I'll suggest they might be dissapointed.



> Former foreign minister Alexander Downer says Dr Natalegawa should not be "taking shots" at Australia as soon as a new government is elected.
> 
> "Let me make this point for Mr Natalegawa's benefit: Indonesian-flagged boats with Indonesian crews are breaking our laws bringing people into our our territorial waters," he told ABC's The Drum.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-26/indonesia-says-asylum-policy-risks-damaging-relations/4983514


----------



## Whiskers (26 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> It won't be long and they'll be back on their moral high horse about how bad offshore processing is.




I saw part of an interview with the PNG foreign minister (I think it was)... seemed to be down playing the significance of a 24 hr turnaround and any issues with only short term funding allocated in the Aus budget for the PNG plan, but emphasizing they have an intergovernmental agreement with Aus for a long term, permanent arrangement to support the facility in PNG.

This deal with PNG needs to remain secure at least for the short term, otherwise it will be a devastating blow to the deterrent effect.

PS: 


> If Indonesia is trying to test the Abbott Government's resolve on this, I'll suggest they might be dissapointed.




Apart from the less than perfect strategy, previously discussed...who threw the first (insulting) stone... there is the little issue that people smuggling is not a crime in Indonesia.


----------



## drsmith (26 September 2013)

Whiskers said:


> I saw part of an interview with the PNG foreign minister (I think it was)... seemed to be down playing the significance of a 24 hr turnaround and any issues with only short term funding allocated in the Aus budget for the PNG plan, but emphasizing they have an intergovernmental agreement with Aus for a long term, permanent arrangement to support the facility in PNG.
> 
> This deal with PNG needs to remain secure at least for the short term, otherwise it will be a devastating blow to the deterrent effect.



I was referring to Labor.


----------



## dutchie (27 September 2013)

From Larry Pickering...

http://pickeringpost.com/story/indons-in-for-a-shock/2065


INDONS IN FOR A SHOCK

As another boat loaded with 80 illegal immigrants arrives on Christmas Island, Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Marty Natalegawa, says his country won't accept violations of its borders under Abbott’s plan to turn back boats. He warns the move risks damage to bilateral relations. Really Marty? 

    It seems that daily Indonesian violations of our borders is quite okay with Marty tho’. 

Islamic arrogance has again reared its ugly head in what is approaching a long-overdue showdown with this nation and its corrupt practices.

Interim Opposition Leader Chris Bowen is right for once and, as a former overseer of this boat invasion, he should know when he said today it was an extraordinary circumstance that Natalegawa had released details of private talks with Australia’s Foreign Minister Julie bishop.

Natalegawa is clearly setting the scene for a **** fight as Bishop, Morrison and Abbott are about to invade Jakarta to bump a few heads. 

Indonesia is quite happy to see Australia’s sovereign borders breached on a daily basis. Australia is not happy, and if I know Abbott, he is fully prepared to play hardball with this bunch of unscrupulous monkeys.

Indonesian boats are leaving Indonesian ports with Indonesian captains under Indonesian flags ferrying illegal immigrants to Australian shores and Indonesia claims we risk violating their borders? For Christ’s sake!

Prepare for a long overdue showdown.

We gift this corrupt nation $600 million a year in unneeded, unaccounted-for aid, we gift further millions for Islamic schools, we gift materiel and armaments, we assist with their natural disasters and receive nothing but diplomatic treachery in return.

Indonesia is a rich country with a GDP approaching that of China’s. It has the fastest growing rate of millionaires in the world and treats its poor (and Australia) with the contempt of a third world backwater.

Asians despise weakness and we have been seen as a cowering compliant neighbour under the reign of Rudd/Gillard/Rudd. That’s about to change.

Go get ‘em Tony, Australians are right behind you. 

Well, those who believe that our sovereignty matters are.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2013)

dutchie said:


> From Larry Pickering...
> 
> http://pickeringpost.com/story/indons-in-for-a-shock/2065
> 
> ...




Sums it up nicely.


----------



## noco (27 September 2013)

I can't wait to hear what the lefties say about this one.

The Indos and the media have been very slient.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...pt_navy_brings_boat_people_back_to_indonesia/


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2013)

noco said:


> I can't wait to hear what the lefties say about this one.
> 
> The Indos and the media have been very slient.
> 
> ...




Magic, here's 'The Wests' take on it.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...kers-back-to-indonesian-authorities-off-java/

No, I don't believe it, 50,000 people later, Labor said 'it couldn't be done'. 
As Sydboy would say "the sky didn't fall in". lol

50,000 people later. jeez 

One has to wonder what the real agenda was.


----------



## drsmith (27 September 2013)

Tony Abbott very measured and diplomatic,



> Earlier today, Prime Minister Tony Abbott described tensions between the two countries over the Coalition's border protection policy as a "passing irritant".
> 
> "The last thing I would ever want to do is anything that doesn't show the fullest possible respect for Indonesia's sovereignty," he said.
> 
> "We are already at this very moment cooperating closely with the Indonesians... I don't believe that the incoming government will do anything that will put that cooperation at risk. We want to build on that."




The Indonesian government should have realised that if a gnome can't out stare Julie Bishop, they've got no chance.



> But today Indonesia's foreign ministry issued a "correction", saying the information in the briefing note was not intended for the media, that the meeting was private, and there was no official press release.




It's good to see adults back in charge. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-27/navy-transfers-asylum-seekers-to-indonesia/4985674


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2013)

drsmith said:


> Tony Abbott very measured and diplomatic,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What? we didn't roll over and p++++s on ourselves.lol

Don't let national pride get in the way of your ambition. At last politicians seeing past that mantra.


----------



## noco (27 September 2013)

noco said:


> I can't wait to hear what the lefties say about this one.
> 
> The Indos and the media have been very slient.
> 
> ...




I would like to know where the instructions came from on this occassion.....the three star General or higher up?

We may never know.


----------



## drsmith (27 September 2013)

The tragic consequences of the Labor/Green legacy roll on,



> AT least 20 people, mostly children, have drowned and many are missing after an Australia-bound boat carrying Middle Eastern asylum-seekers sank off Indonesia, police said tonight.
> 
> "Local people found 20 dead bodies floating in the water, most of them are children," said Warsono, a police official in Cianjur district of West Java province on Indonesia's main island of Java.
> 
> The official added that the boat was believed to have been carrying 120 people, and that 25 adults had so far been rescued alive..




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-mostly-children/story-e6frg6nf-1226728869603


----------



## drsmith (28 September 2013)

A second group of asylum seekers rescued by Australian authorities have been handed back to Indonesia.



> Meanwhile, Australian authorities are attempting to return a second group of asylum seekers to Indonesia after rescuing them at sea.
> 
> The Australian Customs ship, ACV Triton, has been given permission to enter Indonesian waters to offload 31 asylum seekers rescued overnight.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-27/asylum-seekers-drown-as-boat-capsizes-off-java/4986422


----------



## noco (28 September 2013)

More blood on Rudd's hands....more loss of life at sea due his stupity.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...at-talks-urgency/story-fn9hm1gu-1226728914752


----------



## Calliope (28 September 2013)

noco said:


> More blood on Rudd's hands....more loss of life at sea due his stupity.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...at-talks-urgency/story-fn9hm1gu-1226728914752




Not to mention the stupidity of the illegals getting on these boats. I would call it reckless endangerment of their families.



> One of the passengers, a Lebanese man, had reportedly lost his pregnant wife and eight children in the disaster.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...rs-still-missing/story-fn3dxix6-1226728948079


----------



## noco (28 September 2013)

When will the media start listening instead of pestering?

They have already been advised....the report will be available each Monday.

I don't blame Abbott for ignoring them. 

The media will be given one methodical and thorough report that they cannot twist around to make things worse than what they really are.  


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...way-to-australia/story-fnihslxi-1226728862846


----------



## Macquack (29 September 2013)

noco said:


> The media will be given one methodical and thorough report *that they cannot twist around to make things worse than what they really are*.







noco said:


> *More blood on Rudd's hands*....more loss of life at sea due his stupity.




You need to start practicing what you preach, Noco.


----------



## noco (30 September 2013)

Macquack said:


> You need to start practicing what you preach, Noco.




Like to elaborate?

You seem to be getting your knickers in a knot.


----------



## noco (30 September 2013)

This has become a major problem for the Indonesians and they are doing their best to past on their problems to Australia.

They are even using army vehicles to transport these illegals to people smugglers for a dangerous journey to Australia. This was confessed by one of the refugees.

The boat that flipped over was only 50 metres from the shores of Java.

How can these wankers blame Abbott for this disaster?

It is absolute joke.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ving_a_boat_now_lying_on_an_indonesian_beach/


----------



## basilio (30 September 2013)

NOCO when you start using Andrew Bolt as a reference for a story your in quick sand.

Just for interest if you go back to a previous reference in The Australian you get a quite different picture. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...rs-still-missing/story-fn3dxix6-1226728948079

Obviously we don't have a full picture of what has happened (and I guess we wont get it under Abbott) but Bolt deals in deceit and half truths.


----------



## bunyip (30 September 2013)

[_Crew member Azam has told ABC News that he was tricked into skippering the boat to Australia.

"I was offered work in a tourist boat by a man called Adi. He recruited me in Lombok and and flew me to Jakarta airport," he said.

"Then I was taken to an unknown beach with a car and met these passengers and the boat."

He said there was nothing wrong with the boat when the Australian Navy "intercepted" it, and the engine was working.

It appears the asylum seekers called the Australian Maritime Safety Authority, hoping to get rescued and taken to Australia._

It’s a pretty safe bet that this sort of thing has been going on all through the Rudd and Gillard years, and they were too damn stupid to realize it. The asylum seekers, the people smugglers, the Indonesian army and police, and the Indonesian government played Rudd and Gillard for the fools they were.
No wonder the Indos are jumping up and down with indignation now that Abbot has foiled their plans.


----------



## Calliope (30 September 2013)

basilio said:


> Obviously we don't have a full picture of what has happened (and I guess we wont get it under Abbott) *but Bolt deals in deceit and half truths*.




And so do you. Not even you, with your imaginative spin can claim that we are responsible for tragedies that occur in other countries. Perhaps we should apologise for making Australia an attractive destination for illegal economic "refugees".

I suppose that your fertile imagination can even make a link that our carbon emissions policies are responsible for the deaths of 130 Mexicans in last weeks floods.


----------



## chiff (30 September 2013)

I will play the devil's advocate.-Why should Indonesia be a buffer for Australia's problems?These refugees want to head to Australia-the land of milk and honey.I dare say Indonesia take care of many more refugees than Australia.
I wonder whether they think that Australia is responsible for much of their own refugee problems,with our soldiers killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq.If,as they say,all Muslims are brothers then they wouldn't have much sympathy with Australia's plight.A country which claims to have the high moral ground.
We always try to second guess what others are up to.I may be off the mark but this is to add to the discussion.


----------



## chiff (30 September 2013)

And to add-Indonesia want a regional solution to the refugee problems.Perhaps they see Australia as having a fortress Australia solution.With these contradictory views-never the twain will meet!


----------



## basilio (30 September 2013)

Calliope said:


> And so do you. Not even you, with your imaginative spin can claim that we are responsible for tragedies that occur in other countries. Perhaps we should apologise for making Australia an attractive destination for illegal economic "refugees".
> 
> I suppose that your fertile imagination can even make a link that our carbon emissions policies are responsible for the deaths of 130 Mexicans in last weeks floods.




And exactly in which delirious world of make believe do you come up with this sort of dribble Calliope?

I *never* suggested that I knew enough to accuse the current Government of being responsible for the deaths of the asylum seekers. It would require a complete investigation of all the facts.

My only observation was that relying on Andrew Bolts comment would be a poor judgement as borne out by the extra information that was included in  report from The Australian.

And then you decide to bait me with a completely ludicrous off topic comment on climate change ? 

Just whackers.


----------



## Calliope (30 September 2013)

chiff said:


> I wonder whether they think that Australia is responsible for much of their own refugee problems,with our soldiers killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq.




Rubbish. Most of these are economic refugees. The ones fleeing from persecution are as a result of persecution from other Muslims or in your words, from their "brothers". Most of those on the boat that sank were Lebanese. Their own country is being over-run by Syrians fleeing from the civil war between their "brothers" in Syria.

And basilio's  inane contribution:



> And exactly in which delirious world of make believe




Sorry if I intruded into your world.


----------



## basilio (30 September 2013)

Calliope said:


> Rubbish. Most of these are economic refugees. The ones fleeing from persecution are as a result of persecution from other Muslims or in your words, from their "brothers". Most of those on the boat that sank were Lebanese. Their own country is being over-run by Syrians fleeing from the civil war between their "brothers" in Syria.
> 
> And basilio's  inane contribution:
> 
> ...




And you Calliope remind me why ASF continues to drive away contributions to these forums.


----------



## chiff (30 September 2013)

Can anyone tell me how much money these people-those that risk their lives on boats-have when they come to Australia?
I believe that well over 95% of asylum seekers are judged to be genuine refugees,not economic refugees.
I know if I had money I would find an easier way than risking my life.
I was putting forward ideas,but I must have hit a sore spot with the all-knowing.


----------



## noco (30 September 2013)

basilio said:


> NOCO when you start using Andrew Bolt as a reference for a story your in quick sand.
> 
> Just for interest if you go back to a previous reference in The Australian you get a quite different picture.
> 
> ...




I don't see any deceit on Bolts part.....The Australian Navy could not locate this stricken boat because it had broken up and the wreckage had washed up on the beach on Java..The picture of the remains of the boat is there for all to see.

As we all know, had the call been made to the Labor Party they would have picked these people up in Indonesian waters and taken them to Christmas Island.

I think you are way out of line on this one......but of course anything to muddy Abbott's credentials is what you lefties would strive for.

- - - Updated - - -



chiff said:


> Can anyone tell me how much money these people-those that risk their lives on boats-have when they come to Australia?
> I believe that well over 95% of asylum seekers are judged to be genuine refugees,not economic refugees.
> I know if I had money I would find an easier way than risking my life.
> I was putting forward ideas,but I must have hit a sore spot with the all-knowing.




Tell them to get in line and come through the front door and not the back door.


----------



## chiff (30 September 2013)

noco said:


> I don't see any deceit on Bolts part.....The Australian Navy could not locate this stricken boat because it had broken up and the wreckage had washed up on the beach on Java..The picture of the remains of the boat is there for all to see.
> 
> As we all know, had the call been made to the Labor Party they would have picked these people up in Indonesian waters and taken them to Christmas Island.
> 
> ...



Tell them to get in line and come through

- - - Updated - - -

Can anyone inform me if I am wrong on the statements I made regarding money and refugee status?We have to do more create our own realities.But perhaps not!


----------



## drsmith (30 September 2013)

Chiff,

The previous government put the suger on the table and that's why we have our present problem. Indonesia was never going to do much while it was at odds with the previous Labor/Green government's broader ideological position.


----------



## Julia (30 September 2013)

chiff said:


> Can anyone inform me if I am wrong on the statements I made regarding money and refugee status?We have to do more create our own realities.But perhaps not!




Chiff, I've never seen any claim or counter claim regarding the financial situation of asylum seekers, apart perhaps from their own statements that they have paid people smugglers $20,000 or more per person.

What seems unfair to many is that, during Labor's time in office, the numbers of asylum seekers arriving without identification via people smugglers, have completely absorbed the processing capacity of the Immigration Department, not to mention provision of accommodation and other services, thus relegating those without the means to pay people smugglers to even longer being spent in the squalid camps where they've existed for many years now.

I think many Australians would like to see genuine refugees admitted to Australia on the basis of the greatest need, rather than capacity to pay people smugglers.


----------



## Calliope (30 September 2013)

chiff said:


> Can anyone inform me if I am wrong on the statements I made regarding money and refugee status?We have to do more create our own realities.But perhaps not!




Perhaps you should do your own research, especially on your belief  "that well over 95% of asylum seekers are judged to be genuine refugees,not economic refugees."

I would be interested in the outcome of your research. Please provide links.


----------



## IFocus (30 September 2013)

Julia said:


> I think many Australians would like to see genuine refugees admitted to Australia on the basis of the greatest need, rather than capacity to pay people smugglers.





Not if those genuine refugees are from Somalia they just a bomb waiting to go off.


----------



## drsmith (30 September 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Monday September 30*

95 passengers from 3 boats. Of these, 7 were West Papuans who have since been returned to PNG. A further 18 are the Indians who arrived in Darwin and are expected to be returned to India. The remaining 70 people from a third boat were transferred to detention on Christmas Island.

A further 103 passengers from 3 boats were returned to Indonesia. From one of those boats, a further 56 are either dead or missing.

A further 128 asylum seekers had been transferred to Manus and Nauru.

Not forming part of the above briefing is a further 78 arrivals at Christmas Island today.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ads-to-indonesia/story-fn9hm1gu-1226729980300



drsmith said:


> *Operation Sovereign Borders update Monday September 23*
> 
> Boat arrivals since the new government was sworn in (18/9 to 23/9): 1 boat, 31 passengers and 2 crew.
> Boat arrivals during the post-election caretaker period: (8/9 to 21/9): 7 boats, 475 passengers and 16 crew. All 7 of these boats were subject to individual media release under the previous government's policy.
> ...


----------



## So_Cynical (30 September 2013)

chiff said:


> Tell them to get in line and come through
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Can anyone inform me if I am wrong on the statements I made regarding money and refugee status?We have to do more create our own realities.But perhaps not!




20K is a figure often quoted, usually paid by the "refugees" Australian settled relatives on a payback arrangement...refugee "status" has almost nothing to do with wealth and assets, has to do with persecution and safety at "home"


----------



## bellenuit (30 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> 20K is a figure often quoted, usually paid by the "refugees" Australian settled relatives on a payback arrangement...refugee "status" has almost nothing to do with wealth and assets, has to do with persecution and safety at "home"




From what I have read, granting refugee status in many cases is a result of Australia not being able to prove they are not persecuted at home rather than them proving they are. Why else would they almost universally destroy their travel/identity documentation. It makes it next to impossible for Australia to determine the veracity of their claims and leaves them no option but to grant refugee status as they cannot return them back or detain them forever.


----------



## noco (30 September 2013)

I have no objection to immigrants entering Australia so long as they can speak English....have the correct paper work upon entry....have some trade or profession and are not muslims and don't expect hand outs from the tax payer.....I guess that would eliminate 99%...too easy.


----------



## basilio (30 September 2013)

> I don't see any deceit on Bolts part.....The Australian Navy could not locate this stricken boat because it had broken up and the wreckage had washed up on the beach on Java..The picture of the remains of the boat is there for all to see.
> 
> As we all know, had the call been made to the Labor Party they would have picked these people up in Indonesian waters and taken them to Christmas Island.
> 
> I think you are way out of line on this one......but of course anything to muddy Abbott's credentials is what you lefties would strive for.




Noco if you check on the other report made by The Australian there are far more details of the ships passage which Andrew Bolt left out.* These cast quite a different light on the situation* which is why I said I don't accept anything Bolt says unless there is another  supporting source. In my experience he is adept at misinformation.

With regard to what happened with the current disaster.  The government has now released the record of events as they unfolded. From all accounts the navy did everything by the book. In fact that was the comment from the Labour leader Chris Bowen.

Chris Bowens  criticism of Tony Abbott was that the Government didn't release the record of events 2 days ago and therefore stop any questions about the integrity of the Navy in its actions or indeed the government itself.


----------



## Whiskers (30 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> 20K is a figure often quoted, usually paid by the "refugees" Australian settled relatives on a payback arrangement...*refugee "status" has almost nothing to do with wealth and assets, has to do with persecution and safety at "home"*




On a technical legal note that's true with eligibility for asylum too... which raises a legal and moral point that is often missed in these issues... who was responsible for the circumstances creating the refugee status in the first place.

Probably forgotten by many, but the Allies (including Aus) provided temporary protection for Kosovo refugees as a result of the Serbian invasion and NATO war in response, albeit Howard was reluctant at first, and many returned home after the war with a $3,000 inducement... the remainder eventually forcibly returned. 

What is strikingly absent in the current 'debate' is any responsibility for the cause of most of the boat people... the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 

The point I'm getting at is the mess you can get into when you act rashly, without careful thought of the consequences especially in retaliation like the US for the 9/11 attack. 

There is always a cause, but too many have become obsessed with the effect and disowning any responsibility. I'm not advocating opening the doors to all the boats, on the contrary. There are now too many criminal and opportunistic types trying to exploit a now well developed system. 

The boat arrivals in Aus by financial year seems to show it wasn't too badly out of control until Gillard took over when it went really pear shaped. Rudd's about face slowed the flow a bit again... but the real problem Abbott has is his gung-ho attitude a symptom of the Howard era declaring war without thinking through the consequences fully.

I wonder how many people understand that when people like Indonesia say it's Australia's problem... it's little to do with border sovereignty, but more that Aus was actually party to the cause of the refugee crisis and has a moral responsibility toward them. 

How things would have been so different if the US led forces had more respect and understanding for the local culture.

A classic case of; 
​“The faith of religion is belief on insufficient evidence.” 

​“When morality comes up against profit, it is seldom that profit loses.”

... and why Abbott (as in the Libs former decisions to go to war) is getting a bit of their own back


----------



## Julia (30 September 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> 20K is a figure often quoted, usually paid by the "refugees" Australian settled relatives on a payback arrangement...refugee "status" has almost nothing to do with wealth and assets, has to do with persecution and safety at "home"



On the contrary, the $20K was the figure quoted by an asylum seeker returned to Indonesia in the last few days, reported in his own words on ABC Radio interview.  The journalist added that the client had wasted his money, given the outcome.  The journalist went on to say that being returned to Indonesia would be no real deterrent to the person concerned, who would simply come up with yet another equivalent amount to have another go at getting to Australia.


----------



## Calliope (30 September 2013)

Whiskers said:


> On a technical legal note that's true with eligibility for asylum too... which raises a legal and moral point that is often missed in these issues... who was responsible for the circumstances creating the refugee status in the first place.
> 
> ...I wonder how many people understand that when people like Indonesia say it's Australia's problem... it's little to do with border sovereignty, but more that Aus was actually party to the cause of the refugee crisis and has a moral responsibility toward them.




That is rubbish in the same vein as spouted by idiots like Sarah Hanson-Young. The ones fleeing persecution are fleeing persecution by other Muslims; Shias fleeing from Sunnis. The Shias are not welcome in Indonesia which is 90% Sunni. That's why they encourage and assist them to move on to Australia.

The bulk of illegals attempting to get here now are  from Lebanon, Iran, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, etc  and have nothing to do with Australia being "party to the cause of the refugee crisis".

Those coming from Afghanistan are mainly Hazaras fleeing from the Taliban. 

Perhaps you could tell me what nationalities are coming from as a result of American and Australian aggression..


----------



## bunyip (30 September 2013)

basilio said:


> Chris Bowens  criticism of Tony Abbott was that the Government didn't release the record of events 2 days ago and therefore stop any questions about the integrity of the Navy in its actions or indeed the government itself.




Pffftt.....Given the abysmal performance of the Labor government in failing to fix the illegal boat people mess that they created, Chris Bowen has a damn cheek in criticizing any part of the Abbot government's efforts to address the problem.
In just three weeks Tony Abbot and his immigration minister Scott Morrison have achieved more in dealing with this issue than Bowen achieved during his term as Immigration minister in the previous government.


----------



## Whiskers (30 September 2013)

I neglected to include the link for table in previous post.
http://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliam.../pubs/bn/2012-2013/boatarrivals#_Toc347230718

For those who see the picture in graph form... and more info at above link.

Unquestionably, something has to be done to stop this corrupt boat people smuggling trade, but the answer is not as simplistic as some would wish.

Why aren't the US doing more? Is this part of the trade-off our politicians accepted, or simply did not consider when doing the free trade agreement with the US and standing by a 'mate' in going to war.

There's an ironic justice for the ignorance of those countries who came into the fold of the US for 'justifying' their revenge by war... the US became so hated by many of the refugees that they would not seek asylum there and few could easily get there anyway. It was much easier to move toward Aus and Europe. The US got it's revenge and left it's friends with the hang over.


----------



## Whiskers (1 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> That is rubbish in the same vein as spouted by idiots like Sarah Hanson-Young. The ones fleeing persecution are fleeing persecution by other Muslims; Shias fleeing from Sunnis. The Shias are not welcome in Indonesia which is 90% Sunni. That's why they encourage and assist them to move on to Australia.
> 
> The bulk of illegals attempting to get here now are  from Lebanon, Iran, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, etc  and have nothing to do with Australia being "party to the cause of the refugee crisis".
> 
> ...




You demonstrate my point by the shallowness of your understanding Calliope.

The whole point is the US led forces had no concept of the tribal and religious fabric of the region until far too much damage had been done. 

They broke the hold of the Taliban and Sadam which was on face value a good thing, but like a bull in a china shop, they not only made a mess of the cultural fabric, but actively patronised some and demonised others according to their ignorant perception of them, turning countryman against countryman with a passion. 

For example, they persecuted the Sunni's and baath party members for so long in the false belief that they were all die hard Saddam supporters... when in fact many joined up just because it was a prerequisite to getting on in society and getting a decent job... not a lot different in philosophy to Aus or US politics.

It stands to reason that most of the ones trying to get here are the ones the allies tended to side with.

Then as I also pointed out, once the refugee smuggler route was established, criminals and other opportunists soon took advantage of it.


----------



## Calliope (1 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> You demonstrate my point by the shallowness of your understanding Calliope.




And you, Whiskers, demonstrate the poverty of your thought processes. You harp on about Iraq when in fact Iraqi asylum seekers are a very small minority. You still not have answered my question about what nationalities you claim are fleeing the Middle East because of our aggression and your Hanson-Young belief that Australia has a moral responsibility to take them in.


----------



## basilio (1 October 2013)

Whiskers,  I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees.


> The whole point is the US led forces had no concept of the tribal and religious fabric of the region until far too much damage had been done.


----------



## Calliope (1 October 2013)

basilio said:


> Whiskers,  I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees.




Of course you do, as a Sarah Hanson-Young advocate, even though Whiskers can give no information on "the numbers/types of refugees", to support his Green advocacy "beliefs". 

You know as well as I do, that after 2007 it was "pull" factors and not "push" factors that caused the increased numbers of illegals to be attracted to Rudd's honey pot.


----------



## drsmith (1 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> You know as well as I do, that after 2007 it was "pull" factors and not "push" factors that caused the increased numbers of illegals to be attracted to Rudd's honey pot.



And it will be demonstrated again now we have a Coalition government in office.


----------



## drsmith (1 October 2013)

The initial words coming out from TA's first trip to Indonesia are encouraging,



> The Indonesian President has made a significant concession to Tony Abbott's demands on asylum seekers in talks in Jakarta, agreeing that Indonesia will need to make direct deals with Australia to solve the people-smuggling problem.
> 
> Until now, Indonesia's position has been that any potential policies should be dealt with at the multilateral forum, the Bali Process. Many of Mr Abbott's policies - from boat tow-backs to establishing transit ports for asylum seekers on Indonesian soil - have been considered a threat to Indonesian sovereignty.
> 
> But after meeting Mr Abbott late on Monday on his first overseas trip as Prime Minister, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono agreed the countries also needed to work one-on-one.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ks-on-boats-20130930-2uoto.html#ixzz2gQ4Gx9H5


----------



## Whiskers (1 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> And you, Whiskers, demonstrate the poverty of your thought processes. You harp on about Iraq when in fact Iraqi asylum seekers are a very small minority. You still not have answered my question about what nationalities you claim are fleeing the Middle East because of our aggression




Before push and pull 'effects' there was cause... cause always comes before effect. That's Pretty basic physics and behavioural sciences law.

Then there is time line, the ultimate arbiter of context



> and your Hanson-Young belief that Australia has a moral responsibility to take them in.




Firstly, your prejudice is doing your understanding more disservice than you think you are doing to my credibility.

Secondly, I could get caught up in a sideshow, the product of your prejudice and ignorance a "Hanson-Young belief", but... 

What I said is we, or rather the then government, has a legal and moral responsibly for the circumstances creating the refugee status in the first place. That's quite a different thing to your total misrepresentation of what I said.

Since you started loading up a dialogue of scientific and behavioural science with prejudice, you earnt this one.

“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” 
― Albert Einstein​
and someone else said “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.”  

It was common sense to shock and awe...

For your education, one of many documentaries based on wise after the fact US military debriefings and impartial bystanders. 

The US army's initial assault on Iraq was meant to be a show of superior intelligence and overwhelming force. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...we-why-the-Iraqi-invasion-was-a-disaster.html

PS: Bellenuit good case in point (below) of the industry that grew from the 'common sense' of the allies.


----------



## bellenuit (1 October 2013)

A representative of Sydney's Lebanese community was interviewed on ABC NewsRadio this morning regarding the boatload of refugees that sank off Indonesia two days ago. He had recently been in the area of northern Lebanon where this group of people originated from. He said some had relatives in Australia.

He basically admitted that these were economic refugees, although he did say there had been a bomb explosion in the area recently (it is on the border with Syria). He said that it was a poor region of Lebanon with not much employment or chance of schooling. Their situation has been exasperated by an influx of Syrian refugees who are chewing the meagre welfare resources that are available to the locals as well as taking the few jobs that are available.   

He said people smugglers are promoting their offerings in the area both by word of mouth and by newspaper ads. They are told that for a particular fee they can simply fly to Indonesia and then will be ferried by "ship" to Australia. It is not until they arrive at the "ship" at the Indonesia port that they find out that it is just a leaky rickety old boat. It appears also that in this case they were supplied with fake Syrian passports on boarding.


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## Calliope (1 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Before push and pull 'effects' there was cause... cause always comes before effect. That's Pretty basic physics and behavioural sciences law.
> 
> Then there is time line, the ultimate arbiter of context
> 
> ...




More waffle! waffle! waffle! and innocuous quotes. I am still waiting for you to back up your ideological beliefs with hard facts. What are the numbers and nationalities of illegals coming here now as a result of Australia's policies in the Middle East? i,e. your nonsense statement "What is strikingly absent in the current 'debate' is any responsibility for the cause of most of the boat people... the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq." How is that now causing an influx of Iranians, Lebanese, Tamils, Somalis, Burmese, Vietnamese, etc?

There is no point in harping about issues prior to 2007. The problem had been solved before your mob put the honey pot back on the table...the Green Light in the title of this thread. *This discussion is about here and now*.


----------



## Whiskers (1 October 2013)

You demonstrate my point well Calliope! “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” when you bombard the forum with shock and awe, 'common sense' of yours!

Here and now... Cause and effect... it's elementary, mate!

I could have an intellectual argument about what came first, the chicken or the egg, but there is nothing to argue about if you insist there is no egg just the chicken.


----------



## Calliope (1 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> You demonstrate my point well Calliope! “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” when you bombard the forum with shock and awe, 'common sense' of yours!
> 
> Here and now... Cause and effect... it's elementary, mate!
> 
> I could have an intellectual argument about what came first, the chicken or the egg, but there is nothing to argue about if you insist there is no egg just the chicken.




And you demonstrate my point well Whiskers. When you are called on to produce a few facts you chicken out. All you can do is mouth clichÃ©s and homilies and spout quotes from Google's bottomless pit.


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## bunyip (2 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> The ones fleeing from persecution are as a result of persecution from other Muslims or in your words, from their "brothers". Most of those on the boat that sank were Lebanese. Their own country is being over-run by Syrians fleeing from the civil war between their "brothers" in Syria.




I agree.
The primary reason there are so many refugees is that in many of their countries the fanatical Islamic religion has made life intolerable. Most of these countries have not been affected by war with the Allied forces of the west. 

The reason they choose Australia is firstly because of the many attractions of our country, and secondly because that idiot Kevin Rudd and his motley government laid out the welcome mat to them by abandoning Howard’s Pacific Solution, running to their rescue and taking them to Christmas Island any time they sent out a distress call, fake or otherwise, and giving them free board and keep, free phone calls to invite their relatives to come on down, and free legal aid to fight any moves to send them home.

Now we’re seeing the left criticizing the Abbot government's decisive measures to fix the problem that remained unfixed and in fact got continually worse for six years under Labor.
I say give Abbot a fair go – he’s only been in office for three weeks or so. Save the criticism for if he fails to deliver on his promise to stop the boats. But don’t expect miracles in three weeks. 
Again I remind people that Labor created this problem and had six years to get on top of it, but under their watch it just kept getting worse.


----------



## Chris45 (2 October 2013)

I had zero sympathy for these good-life seeking Muslim invaders before the recent sinking ... I've now fallen into negative territory!

SBS's Dateline last night:

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601751/n/Village-of-Tears

"SHEIK ALI KHODER (Translation):   Yes, listen, Australia. The boat sought help and rescue and the coastguard kicked the boat out and told the boat “Go back to where you came from.” Shame on you. Shame on you. Ask for the meaning of these words. Australia, shame on you. Australia, which has been the land of dreams, freedom, humanity and justice for so long. Shame on you, that your new rulers have reached the stage of killing people and making this part of their election campaign. Is there a court of justice to try you, Australia?"

I'm lost for words!!!


----------



## doctorj (2 October 2013)

Chris45 said:


> I had zero sympathy for these good-life seeking Muslim invaders before the recent sinking ... I've now fallen into negative territory!
> 
> SBS's Dateline last night:
> 
> ...



Unbelievable!  What right do they have to hope for a better life?!


----------



## basilio (2 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> Of course you do, as a Sarah Hanson-Young advocate, even though Whiskers can give no information on "the numbers/types of refugees", to support his Green advocacy "beliefs".
> 
> You know as well as I do, that after 2007 it was "pull" factors and not "push" factors that caused the increased numbers of illegals to be attracted to Rudd's honey pot.




Did you actually read what Whiskers said ? He was talking about the effects of American foreign policy in disrupting the countries they invaded ie Iraq, Afganistan as well the surrounding areas ie Iran. 

I would have thought it was a lay down misere that  the disruption caused by the US through their protracted military actions was a large factor in the increase in asylum seekers overall. We just cop our share of the numbers.


----------



## Calliope (2 October 2013)

basilio said:


> Did you actually read what Whiskers said ? He was talking about the effects of American foreign policy in disrupting the countries they invaded ie Iraq, Afganistan as well the surrounding areas ie Iran.




Bas, you said "Whiskers, I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees."

When I asked him to produce the "numbers/types " of illegals arriving here after 2007, when Rudd gave them open slather, Whiskers backed down, because as you well know these arrivals had nothing to do with his and your ideological beliefs about USA/Australian aggression, but that the influx was due almost solely to pull factors. If you do a little research you will find the very few Iraqi illegals have come here compared withe other nationalities.


----------



## Whiskers (2 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> Bas, you said "Whiskers, I agree with your analysis and background information on the reasons for the numbers/types of refugees."
> 
> When I asked him to produce the "numbers/types " of illegals arriving here after 2007, when Rudd gave them open slather, Whiskers backed down, because as you well know these arrivals had nothing to do with his and your ideological beliefs about USA/Australian aggression, but that the influx was due almost solely to pull factors. If you do a little research you will find the very few Iraqi illegals have come here compared withe other nationalities.




Calliope, I didn't back down... on the contrary you ran out of rational puff with your "pull" (akin to your Pen-nouse from The Abbott thread) argument. There is an obvious connotation there, but one does not need to explain what is obvious.

While on dirty connotations, what if you visited a prostitute and got say Gonorrhea (an undesirable effect from your common sense idea of having a quick excursion into foreign territory) shortly after. You would say the prostitute caused your disease. If some years later you found you had HIV, (an effect that takes much longer to manifest) would the prostitute not still be the cause, regardless of whatever other push or pull effects you did?


----------



## drsmith (2 October 2013)

The question that comes to my mind is that what rate of weekly boat arrivals has to be achieved before Tony Abbott's critics on this policy area are silenced ?


----------



## Chris45 (2 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> Unbelievable!  What right do they have to hope for a better life?!



If they want a better life, they should work (and fight if necessary) to build a better life in their homelands, like our forebears did, rather than take the easier option of coming here and expecting us to accommodate them all, but then I suspect this is really all part of the Muslim's long game of Islamising the world.

http://www.aim.org/guest-column/muslim-brotherhoods-world-domination-blueprint/

Our bleeding heart socialist refugee advocates are playing right into their hands by allowing them to exploit the refugee convention and our multicultural laws so they can join their rapidly growing diaspora which will eventually see Australia become a Muslim country.

Centuries of hard work, sacrifices and suffering endured by our forebears have resulted in the society we enjoy today. Why should we be expected to take them all in and then stand by and watch as they create duplicates of the societies they're supposedly escaping from?

If they want a better life they should be prepared to make whatever changes are necessary to their ways of thinking and their religious beliefs so they can eventually live together harmoniously and build better societies for themselves AT HOME, is that expecting too much?


----------



## Calliope (2 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Calliope, I didn't back down... on the contrary you ran out of rational puff with your "pull" (akin to your Pen-nouse from The Abbott thread) argument. There is an obvious connotation there, but one does not need to explain what is obvious.
> 
> While on dirty connotations, what if you visited a prostitute and got say Gonorrhea (an undesirable effect from your common sense idea of having a quick excursion into foreign territory) shortly after. You would say the prostitute caused your disease. If some years later you found you had HIV, (an effect that takes much longer to manifest) would the prostitute not still be the cause, regardless of whatever other push or pull effects you did?




What rubbish! I broke one of my cardinal rules. Never argue with a fool. It won't happen again.


----------



## doctorj (2 October 2013)

Chris45 said:


> If they want a better life, they should work (and fight if necessary) to build a better life in their homelands, like our forebears did, rather than take the easier option of coming here and expecting us to accommodate them all, but then I suspect this is really all part of the Muslim's long game of Islamising the world.?




Easy for us to say, having never done any of those things. 

No, it’s not our fault that people in other countries experience hardship.  Yes something should be done to make these people have the opportunities and standard of living we enjoy without having to be smuggled around the world. 

But the reality is, if I’m a guy living in the back blocks of Syria with a government willing to use chemical weapons on its own people and with little hope for a better future, I’m also going to do whatever it takes to make a better life for me and my loved ones.  I doubt you or anyone else here would feel any different in the same situation.

What does illegal immigration have to do with religion anyway?  What if they were persecuted Christians from Egypt? Would you feel any different?


----------



## Julia (2 October 2013)

basilio said:


> Did you actually read what Whiskers said ? He was talking about the effects of American foreign policy in disrupting the countries they invaded ie Iraq, Afganistan as well the surrounding areas ie Iran.



When has America invaded or disrupted Iran?  Even if it had, how does that place responsibility on Australia?

One could ask the same question about Sri Lanka or any other of the many countries whose people are coming to Australia, none of which Australia (or largely America for that matter) has had any particular connection or influence.


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## noco (2 October 2013)

This report from Andrew Bolt must now surely leave the media lefties like stunned mullets.

Abbott has done what many journos say he could not do.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...he_bungler_in_indonesia_they_falsely_claimed/


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## sails (2 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> Easy for us to say, having never done any of those things.
> 
> No, it’s not our fault that people in other countries experience hardship.  Yes something should be done to make these people have the opportunities and standard of living we enjoy without having to be smuggled around the world.
> 
> ...




But let's not confuse the genuine refugees with economic asylum seekers who simply want a lifetime with everything provided and where they do not have to work. Sadly, it appears these people are taking the places of very genuine refugees who desperately need a helping hand.


----------



## doctorj (2 October 2013)

sails said:


> But let's not confuse the genuine refugees with economic asylum seekers who simply want a lifetime with everything provided and where they do not have to work.



Sure.  But we should also be careful to not assume that those looking for a better life are looking for a better life that does not include work.


----------



## Whiskers (2 October 2013)

Julia said:


> When has America invaded or disrupted Iran?  Even if it had, how does that place responsibility on Australia?
> 
> One could ask the same question about Sri Lanka or any other of the many countries whose people are coming to Australia, none of which Australia (or largely America for that matter) has had any particular connection or influence.




Julia, Basiloio may comment differently, but since it's about my comment originally, I'll chime in here.

The main point about the people smuggler trade, through Indonesia as it relates to us, is that regardless of the root cause or motivation of the Asylum seekers, once the people started to flow towards Aus given the nature of Indo culture and politics, entrepreneurial types with good government ties saw a business opportunity. The saw it was much easier and more profitable to help them through Indo on their way to Aus. Hence, a reluctance for Indo to stop the 'boat people' trade.

The US was behind a coup d'Ã©tat that planted the Shah in control of Iran from WWII until the late 1970's. After the Iranian revolution that saw the current regime come to power the US led an economic war of sanctions against Iran in response to their nuclear ambitions and threats of death to America.

In the Iranian case, Australia's only responsibility (for the cause) comes via our support for the US and sanctions. But as I said originally, that does not necessarily make us obliged to take any or all Asylum seekers or refugees.

The other Impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq war was the disbursement of fighters and civilians into neighbouring countries like Iran and Pakistan distressing the culture and lifestyle of the locals as a result of paramilitary mob rule and in the case of Pakistan, US drone attacks that inadvertently kill innocent people who just happen to be there.

Plenty of cause and motivation for these people to want to go anywhere else, including Aus... hence also my earlier comment about the inconvenience of us bearing the disproportionate burden and the US should be doing more to either calm the situation, take more of the refugees or provide compensation.

- - - Updated - - -



noco said:


> This report from Andrew Bolt must now surely leave the media lefties like stunned mullets.
> 
> Abbott has done what many journos say he could not do.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...he_bungler_in_indonesia_they_falsely_claimed/




One thing to note something from the likes of Andrew Bolt, but if you want to save your point from a red flag for bias, quote some reference other than a shock jock, please!


----------



## Chris45 (3 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> No, it’s not our fault that people in other countries experience hardship.  Yes something should be done to make these people have the opportunities and standard of living we enjoy without having to be smuggled around the world.
> 
> But the reality is, if I’m a guy living in the back blocks of Syria with a government willing to use chemical weapons on its own people and with little hope for a better future, I’m also going to do whatever it takes to make a better life for me and my loved ones.  I doubt you or anyone else here would feel any different in the same situation.
> 
> What does illegal immigration have to do with religion anyway?  What if they were persecuted Christians from Egypt? Would you feel any different?



The people on the boat that sank were Lebanese Muslims looking for a better life here at our expense (as Sails implied). Did you even watch the video or read the transcript? They have the hide to blame us for the deaths of their people.

Ninety percent of the (mainly Islamic) illegal migrants who arrive here end up living on welfare and are a burden to us because they have no skills that our employers can use. I don't care what religion they are, if they take the easier option of coming here illegally by boat and demanding that we take them in, and then blaming us when some don't make it, and rioting and destroying facilities we have built for them when we don't immediately meet their demands, I have zero sympathy for them.

I disagree with the view that we should have to do anything "to make these people have the opportunities and standard of living we enjoy". We can offer them opportunities to prosper by trading with them but if they can't organise themselves to develop prosperous societies, it's not our problem.

They have huge families ... eight or more children. They might be more prosperous if they weren't so focused on procreating and I shudder to think how serious this problem will be when the world population reaches ten billion!

By the way, the guy who gets up really close and personal to me and drills my teeth is an Arab and I have the greatest respect for him because he's an excellent dentist and he migrated here legally.


----------



## noco (3 October 2013)

Abbott has succeeded where Rudd and Gillard failed miserably....The media and the socialist left wingers are gobsmacked.

Abbotts diplomacy would have even silenced the "WRECKER" (Mr. Chaos)....no war with Indonesia !!!!!!!!!!!! The Labor Party must be so dissapointed.

Abbott actually secured a refugee deal with Indonesia in just 24 hours of his visit....He has even swung old Marty (Indonesias forgreign mister) around.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s-a-refugee-deal/story-fnj45fvb-1226731839336


----------



## Calliope (3 October 2013)

In spite of what some misguided posters say, we are not under any obligation to accept illegal immigrants who are detrimental to our national interests. To make excuses for these people is not only naive but extremely ignorant of the consequences.



> Since Kevin Rudd abolished John Howard's policies in 2008, many more than 50,000 people have come illegally by boat, in an accelerating trend. If the route is not stopped, 50,000 in a few years will be several hundred thousand.
> 
> Australia is a nation built on legal immigration. The integrity of our immigration policy is absolutely core to the integrity of our national project. *The social costs of a predominantly Muslim, poorly educated population with little English would be huge.*
> 
> ...



(My bolds)

- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...y-e6frg76f-1226731820800#sthash.EH0deQ3G.dpuf


----------



## bunyip (3 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> Unbelievable!  What right do they have to hope for a better life?!





Has anyone said they have no right to hope for a better life?

As Chris suggests, if they want a better life they should work to create it in their own countries. They could start by changing the backward attitudes that are causing their problems.

I just don’t go along with the idea that their search for a better life gives them the right to come flooding into our country by paying criminals to bring them here, and then expecting us to provide that better life they’re chasing, while at the same time they stick to their fanatical religious beliefs, make little or no effort to fit in with Australian life and respect our culture and values, change entire neighborhoods into Islamist societies, breed prolifically, demand special rights, and bring with them the tribal and factional hatreds that were the root cause of trouble in their homelands.

Have a look at what has happened with the Muslims in Holland, and ask yourself if you want the same thing to happen here. It didn’t happen overnight, it happened bit by bit as Muslims filtered into the country and then started demanding and getting special rights. There are many countries that are going the same way because they let Muslims get a foot hold....England, Spain, Germany, France. There are now some areas of these countries where you risk your life if you’re a non Muslim who walks into a Muslim neighborhood.
There are even some Muslims neighborhoods in Australia where you’d be taking a risk as a non-Muslim.

I ask you again – do you want the same thing to happen here in Australia? It already is happening, slowly but surely, and you want to speed up the process by welcoming Muslims in their hundreds of thousands???!!!


----------



## bunyip (3 October 2013)

doctorj said:


> What does illegal immigration have to do with religion anyway?



 Do you seriously think the Islamic religion isn’t the root cause of the problems that makes life intolerable in Muslim countries, causing so many people to emigrate to other countries by whatever means possible, whether legal or illegal?
They hate each other even more than they hate the west – look at Syria for example, one religious faction against the other. 
Look at Iraq - they now have the greatest opportunity for freedom and democracy in their history, and the west has offered them all the help they need to achieve it, but the stupid bastards are throwing away the opportunity of a lifetime because they can’t put their ridiculous tribal and religious factional hatreds to rest.
Look at Iran – by all accounts it was a decent country to live in before the Islamic revolution stuffed it up – now life is so intolerable there that they’re leaving in droves.

Do you seriously think that life wouldn’t be far better for those countries if they adopted Christianity or some other religion that doesn’t subjugate people, treat women like dirt, and shun education and technological advancement?


doctorj said:


> What if they were persecuted Christians from Egypt? Would you feel any different?



I know some persecuted Christians from Egypt – a husband and wife who are both doctors, very nice people. We’ve had them to our place for barbeques a number of times, and they've had us to their place.
They’ve told us some harrowing stories of what happens to non-Muslims in Islamic countries. That’s why they emigrated to Australia (through the legal channels – not illegally via people smugglers).
They've both made every effort to adopt Australian culture and values. If Muslims who come here would make the same effort then I might feel differently about them.


----------



## Calliope (3 October 2013)

bunyip said:


> Do you seriously think the Islamic religion isn’t the root cause of the problems that makes life intolerable in Muslim countries, causing so many people to emigrate to other countries by whatever means possible, whether legal or illegal?




You are correct bunyip. The support of Greens and other left wing loonies and do-gooders for this Muslim invasion leads to the only conclusion. They obviously have ulterior motives. It would be different if there was any evidence that their infiltration into predominantly Christian society has had anything but negative effects. As for us, what Greg Sheridan says in my earlier post, should sound the alarm bells to all those except the politically naive or just stupid;



> 'The social costs of a predominantly Muslim, poorly educated population with little English would be huge."




Consider the way we treat NZ immigrants, This is from a country which more than any other country in the world, shares our cultural and social values. We put up barriers that don't apply to the alien Muslims, whose every need we cater for after arrival at Christmas Island.



> Those who arrived in Australia after 26 February 2001 are generally considered to be “non-protected SCV holders” and are considered to be on a “temporary visa”. Non-protected SCV holders cannot access the full range of Centrelink social security payments. For example, they are not eligible for the unemployment (‘Newstart’) or sickness allowance. The only exception is that non-protected SCV holders who have lived in Australia for at least ten continuous years since 26 February 2001 may be eligible to receive a one-off payment of Newstart Allowance, Youth Allowance or Sickness Allowance for up to six months.


----------



## Julia (3 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> The main point about the people smuggler trade, through Indonesia as it relates to us, is that regardless of the root cause or motivation of the Asylum seekers, once the people started to flow towards Aus given the nature of Indo culture and politics, entrepreneurial types with good government ties saw a business opportunity. The saw it was much easier and more profitable to help them through Indo on their way to Aus. Hence, a reluctance for Indo to stop the 'boat people' trade.
> 
> The US was behind a coup d'Ã©tat that planted the Shah in control of Iran from WWII until the late 1970's. After the Iranian revolution that saw the current regime come to power the US led an economic war of sanctions against Iran in response to their nuclear ambitions and threats of death to America.



I think we're all aware of events in the 1970's, Whiskers.  It hardly has continuing relevance in 2013!!!

To try to draw this sort of long bow is stretching credibility.

Others have more correctly described why there is such determination to come to Australia.



Calliope said:


> Consider the way we treat NZ immigrants, This is from a country which more than any other country in the world, shares our cultural and social values. We put up barriers that don't apply to the alien Muslims, whose every need we cater for after arrival at Christmas Island.



Good point.


----------



## noco (3 October 2013)

bunyip said:


> Has anyone said they have no right to hope for a better life?
> 
> As Chris suggests, if they want a better life they should work to create it in their own countries. They could start by changing the backward attitudes that are causing their problems.
> 
> ...




I have been saying it now for some time...........there is a world wide plot for Islamic world domination and they are doing through illegal immigration.

When they are in small numbers there are few problems....but mark my words when they get the numbers, they will create havic for any counrty.

Islam is not about religion, it is purely political......Religion is only a front and are similar in nature to the Green movement whereby the invironment is just a front for communsim.....


----------



## basilio (3 October 2013)

I think this conversation is turning into a blind hate session. When 3 posters take the discussion into denigrating Islam as a front for world domination I just don't like it.

Substitute the word "Christian", Zionist ", "American",  "Ku Klux Klan", "Communist",  "Greenies"  whatever into the language and see how it looks.

I completely reject the proposal that the Islamic religion is somehow a front for world domination.  I suggest that trying to run this line is really offensive  and not remotely in any spirit of constructive discussion.

Or should we be dusting off our white sheets and nooses ?


----------



## Calliope (3 October 2013)

basilio said:


> I think this conversation is turning into a blind hate session. When 3 posters take the discussion into denigrating Islam as a front for world domination I just don't like it.
> 
> ...I completely reject the proposal that the Islamic religion is somehow a front for world domination.  I suggest that trying to run this line *is really offensive * and not remotely in any spirit of constructive discussion.




It depends which brand of Islamic religion you are talking about. They are a lot like us. They range from moderates to extreme ratbag radicals, These radical extremist Islamists murdered 41 school kids and their English teacher in Nigeria simply because they were being being taught English, rather than having their noses stuck in the Koran and remaining ignorant like our illegals. 

I suggest to you that that what they did *is really offensive.*



> 41 students and an English teacher have been killed in an Islamic extremist attack on a boarding school in northeast Nigeria. Some students were burned alive, according to survivors being treated for burn and gunshot wounds.
> 
> "We received 42 dead bodies of students and other staff of Government Secondary School [in] Mamudo last night. Some of them had gunshot wounds while many of them had burns and ruptured tissues," Haliru Aliyu of the Potiskum General Hospital told AFP.
> 
> ...




http://rt.com/news/school-massacre-nigeria-children-740/


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## Chris45 (3 October 2013)

noco said:


> I have been saying it now for some time...........there is a world wide plot for Islamic world domination and they are doing through illegal immigration.
> 
> When they are in small numbers there are few problems....but mark my words when they get the numbers, they will create havic for any counrty.
> 
> Islam is not about religion, it is purely political......Religion is only a front and are similar in nature to the Green movement whereby the invironment is just a front for communsim.....



Yes Noco, and that was confirmed in the article I linked to earlier.

_"From its inception in 1928, the Muslim Brotherhood has been the subject of persecution due to its commitment to a single goal ”” transitioning the world into an Islamic empire.

In the early 1990s, the Brotherhood memorialized its strategy in a secret document ””not discovered until 2004 ””for spreading Islam’s reach to U.S. borders as well. In a game plan best described as “Shariah creep,” it sought to introduce Islamic law into the United States, gradually getting it to replace rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Sound absurd? We have already seen Shariah applied by U.S. state courts!

One example of a state court applying Shariah involved a Muslim husband accused of raping his Muslim wife. Arguing that Shariah allows a husband to forcefully impose himself upon a non-consenting wife, he was found not guilty. One can only wonder how long it will be before such rationale is applied to Muslim defendants killing a family member, declaring their innocence under the Islamic concept of “honor killings.”

The Muslim Brotherhood’s strategy mandated Muslims immigrate to the United States, ignoring its “mixing bowl” of cultures concept by non-assimilation. In this way, Muslims remained pure in their efforts to go forth and multiply, gaining more and more influence in the United States.

The idea of a large, non-assimilated Muslim population gaining influence on foreign shores has long been promoted .... Erdogan who once said, “The mosques are our barracks, the domes are our helmets, the minarets are our swords and the faithful are our army.”_

It was revealed recently that the Muslim population of the Gold Coast has DOUBLED in just two years from 4,000 in 2011 to an estimated 8,000 now ... not through migration, but due to their high procreation rate.

Nationally, the Islamic population grew by 40% from 2006 to 2011, compared to our overall population growth of 8%.

The Gold Coast Islamic leaders are complaining that their current mosque is now overcrowded and are pushing for another mosque to be built to accommodate the growth.

Muslims are establishing significant communities in Australia, in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, now in Gold Coast and once we allow them in, it will be impossible to kick them out. How long before the amplified calls to prayer will be blasting out from the minarets five times a day throughout Australia and Shariah law becomes part of our legal system?

In July this year, Rudd's new parliamentary secretary, Ed Husic was sworn in on the Koran.

_"This is a wonderful day for multiculturalism, and everything it stands for in our country," Governor-General Quentin Bryce told Mr Husic during the swearing-in ceremony in Canberra on Monday._ ... How frighteningly naive!!!
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-for-taking-oath-on-koran-20130702-2p8l2.html

When a cartoonist satirises their religion in a drawing, or someone makes a movie that they perceive as being anti-Islamic, Muslims take to the streets and express their anger in the most violent ways possible, but when one of their extremist terrorist groups commits a horrific atrocity in a shopping mall in the name of their religion, strangely they fall very silent. Why is that?

_A KENYAN doctor has told of finding eyes, ears and noses torn from the bodies of hostages recovered from Nairobi's Westgate Mall.
"They removed (testicles), eyes, ears, nose. They get your hand and sharpen it like a pencil then they tell you to write your name with the blood. They drive knives inside a child's body. Actually if you look at all the bodies, unless those ones that were escaping, fingers are cut by pliers, the noses are ripped by pliers."_
http://www.news.com.au/world-news/n...-fool-terrorists/story-fndir2ev-1226727931521

If an extremist group committed such an extreme act of cruelty in the name of any other religion, especially Christianity, I'm sure there would be a very vocal reaction from the religious leaders.

As Bunyip pointed out, if we don't act decisively to curb this Muslim infiltration, the Australia we currently enjoy will be irreversibly changed, and not for the better! Currently our Muslim population is somewhere between 2-5% and growing rapidly ... and that is cause for alarm!

In the small sleepy islands of Fiji, the natives woke up one morning in 1987 and found that the Indian population had increased their power and were now ruling them, and we know what turmoil ensued after that. Is that what we want for our future?


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## noco (3 October 2013)

Chris45 said:


> Yes Noco, and that was confirmed in the article I linked to earlier.
> 
> _"From its inception in 1928, the Muslim Brotherhood has been the subject of persecution due to its commitment to a single goal ”” transitioning the world into an Islamic empire.
> 
> ...




Thanks for that back up Chris....I hope Basilio has absorbed it all....

I was in Lautoka Fiji in 1993 setting up a branch there for my company......I was there for 4 weeks....The Islamic loud speakers were wailing out the Koran at 5 am every morning.

Be afarid...be very afraid.....Australia will wonder what hit them in 20 or 30 years from now....At my age, I won't be around to see it but I do fear for children, my grand children and my great grand children.


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## basilio (3 October 2013)

Ok so lets see what you have done folks.

You have taken the criminal actions of a a group of Muslims and tarred the entire religion and everyone who professes it with the same brush. Do you suggest that the the Muslim population as a whole would have anything except disgust for the actions you describe? 

Would you care for Western countries to be judged by the actions of American soldiers in Iraq for shooting up women and children from helicopters ? How about the activities of the Ku Klux Klan in lynching people ? Or the weekly decisions of President Obama to send drones across Pakistan etc to identify and kill people ? 

This conversation has moved from discussing Asylum seekers to an all out attack on  23% of the worlds population. Would you like to take up the attack on Indonesia as well ? Not to mention SE Asia.

Come on. We are better than this..


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## Whiskers (3 October 2013)

Julia said:


> I think we're all aware of events in the 1970's, Whiskers.  It hardly has continuing relevance in 2013!!!
> 
> To try to draw this sort of long bow is stretching credibility.
> 
> ...




Did someone say something about Trans-Tasman relations... :

An Aussie bloke is having a quiet drink in a bar and leans over to the big guy next to him and says, 'Do you wanna hear a Kiwi joke?

 The big guy replies, 'Well mate, before you tell that joke, you should know something. I'm 1.90 m tall, 125 kg and I played as a forward for the All Blacks."

 "The guy next to me is 1.85 m, weighs 115 kg and he's an ex-All Black lock."

 "Next to him is a bloke who's 2 m tall, weighs 120 kg and he's a current All Black second rower. Now do you still want to tell that Kiwi joke?"

 The aussie bloke says, "Nah, not if I'm going to have to explain it three times." 
​


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## Chris45 (3 October 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Did someone say something about Trans-Tasman relations... :
> 
> An Aussie bloke is having a quiet drink in a bar and leans over to the big guy next to him and says, 'Do you wanna hear a Kiwi joke?​



Brilliant!!!


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## Chris45 (3 October 2013)

basilio said:


> Come on. We are better than this..



Yes Basilio, I'm sure you're right and this is just another one of those horrible right-winged conspiracy theories, and the Muslims who come here by boat and other means just want to live peacefully in their little communities, enjoy their generous fortnightly welfare payments, and make as many babies as Allah will allow them to. What can possibly be the harm in that?

Does the Muslim population as a whole have anything except disgust for the horrific actions described? I don't know, because they never speak out and express their disgust. They remain silent!!!

Back to our default positions.


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## basilio (3 October 2013)

> Yes Basilio, I'm sure you're right and this is just another one of those horrible right-winged conspiracy theories, and the Muslims who come here by boat and other means just want to live peacefully in their little communities, enjoy their generous fortnightly welfare payments, and make as many babies as Allah will allow them to. What can possibly be the harm in that?




Chris I have lived with Muslims, I have taught  with Muslims, I would count many as amongst my friends.

Your observation is complete BS. You are sprouting offensive, nasty  nonsense.

Welcome !!!


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## Julia (3 October 2013)

basilio said:


> Ok so lets see what you have done folks.
> 
> You have taken the criminal actions of a a group of Muslims and tarred the entire religion and everyone who professes it with the same brush. Do you suggest that the the Muslim population as a whole would have anything except disgust for the actions you describe?



Could you explain, then, why we hear nothing of this disgust?   I've heard not a whisper from any Muslim, either in Australia or overseas, in terms of condemnation of the recent atrocious acts.
But someone in Europe draws a silly cartoon and the whole of Islam rises up in fury.


Another question for you, basilio.  On immigration, do you think it's fair and reasonable that people able to pay people smugglers large sums to get here, are admitted to Australia, given very generous care and welfare, whilst those who are truly desperate, and who  have languished for many years in UNHCR camps, having waited their turn to get to Australia, have their waiting time hugely blown out simply because those who are 'pushing their way in' are absorbing the processing capacity of the Immigration Department?

Several posts back, Whiskers conveniently answered for you my question about why Australia should be responsible for people deciding they no longer wanted to live in, eg Lebanon.  I was less than impressed by Whiskers' answer, so would be interested in your comments.
Here are the original posts:
from basilio: 


> Did you actually read what Whiskers said ? He was talking about the effects of American foreign policy in disrupting the countries they invaded ie Iraq, Afganistan as well the surrounding areas ie Iran.




From Julia


> When has America invaded or disrupted Iran? Even if it had, how does that place responsibility on Australia?
> 
> One could ask the same question about Sri Lanka or any other of the many countries whose people are coming to Australia, none of which Australia (or largely America for that matter) has had any particular connection or influence.




One further point: you feel outraged by suggestions that devotees of Islam should be wishing to extend the reach of their religion/political ideology.  Surely it's essentially in the DNA of all religions to be evangelical and to proselytize?
Given that the multiple atrocities that have occurred over now many years have all been perpetrated by muslims, I don't see that - even if we don't subscribe to the view that they are wishing to take over Australia - it's all that unreasonable that some Australians are going to be concerned about their increasing numbers when mostly they seem very reluctant to assimilate into the Australian way of life.

I'm just not sure it's reasonable of you to be so outraged at those who are expressing these concerns.


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## Calliope (3 October 2013)

Julia said:


> I'm just not sure it's reasonable of you to be so outraged at those who are expressing these concerns.




It's because he(she?) and the Islamist radicals share a common hatred of Americans. He(she?)  thinks that Western society should be judged by American actions he(she?) has dredged up from the past, which pale into insignificance compared with Islamic atrocities.



> Would you care for Western countries to be judged by the actions of American soldiers in Iraq for shooting up women and children from helicopters ? How about the activities of the Ku Klux Klan in lynching people ? Or the weekly decisions of President Obama to send drones across Pakistan etc to identify and kill people ?


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## Chris45 (4 October 2013)

basilio said:


> You are sprouting offensive, nasty nonsense.



Basilio, I am also quite keen to hear your answers to Julia's questions, and I would like to add one more.

Do you agree with Sheik Ali Khoder's very serious accusation that our new government has reached the stage of killing people as part of their election campaign and should be tried in a court of justice, because some of his boat people drowned?

You accuse me of sprouting offensive, nasty nonsense so how do you describe his outburst, which was the subject of my initial post #1914?


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## bunyip (4 October 2013)

basilio said:


> Chris I have lived with Muslims, I have taught  with Muslims, I would count many as amongst my friends.
> 
> Your observation is complete BS. You are sprouting offensive, nasty  nonsense.
> 
> Welcome !!!





It’s completely irrelevant that you’ve found the Muslims of your acquaintance to be nice and decent people. The majority of Germans in the Hitler years were nice decent people too, yet Germany subjugated and killed millions of people.
Even some bikies are nice decent people. Like, for example, the ones my wife and I spoke to just a few months ago when we were having lunch at a quiet little country pub. We heard the rumbling of motor bikes outside, and next thing in walked a dozen or so bikies and sat at the table beside us. They were all older blokes well into their sixties, clean and respectable, well presented, no tattoos or earrings or any of the other junk you normally associate with bikies.
We got talking to them and found out that that were all retired blokes who just loved motor bikes and going for a ride in the country. They were from a variety of career backgrounds – two of them had been accountants, one a doctor, one a bricklayer, one a carpenter, one a clothing shop owner, etc etc.
I suppose that after meeting this nice bunch of ordinary blokes who just liked to ride their bikes, we could have formed the view that bikies are just ordinary people who pose no threat to anyone, and we could have gone into denial about the serious problems being caused by bikie gangs.
Isn’t that what you’re doing with Muslims? You’ve met some nice ones, and you have therefore formed the view that Muslims are nice people who pose no threat to our country. Even though the evidence is right there in front of you, you’re in denial about the problems that Muslims cause in every country in which they get a foothold. 
Are you blind or deaf or of low intelligence? I doubt it. I’d say that like many young people you’re idealistic, unrealistic and overly compassionate, and have not yet developed enough maturity and responsibility to look honestly and realistically at all the evidence that’s right there in front of your eyes. 

Here’s a link to an article that might, just might, give you and others like you an urgently needed wake up call. Don’t just dismiss it as more anti-Islamic hatred. Read it and read it again, then read it a third time, and think, really think, about what it says.
http://increasingawareness.tumblr.c...dical-islam-vs-nazi-germany-a-germans-view-on


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## Julia (4 October 2013)

Bunyip, it sounds as though the blokes you were talking with were "bikers", as distinct from "bikies".
There's a world of difference.


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## basilio (4 October 2013)

> You have taken the criminal actions of a a group of Muslims and tarred the entire religion and everyone who professes it with the same brush. Do you suggest that the the Muslim population as a whole would have anything except disgust for the actions you describe?




I believe that is still an accurate reflection of the way some posters view Islam and Muslims. 

As I pointed out substitute the word Islam for any other nationality, race or religion and you can see where that takes us. Its as racist and xenophobic  as it gets.  You may as well say "The only good Muslim(or Indian or Negro or Commie or Jew) is a dead . Kill them all and let God take care of the innocent."

Incidentally that was the argument for pogroms that killed tens of thousands of Jews, the elimination of American Indians, the murder of millions of Armenians.  Take your pick.  History is full of current and historical examples of making an entire group responsible for the actions of a few. 

It is an excuse for mass action. Ethnic cleansing. Final Solutions.

Julia asks why we haven't heard publicly from Muslims that are outraged by terrorist acts. Lots of possibilities here

1) Maybe you don't look for these comments
2) Maybe the mass media isn't that interested in looking for and carrying such comments
3) Given the sort of hysteria that the most vocal shock jocks promote in our community such comments would most likely be  sneered at or taken as evidence of dissembling. 
4) Inside the Muslim community there will be pressures to stay quiet or shut up. 

By the way how many of us are prepared to  publicly criticize the actions of our governments/allies or their armies when they commit murder and mayhem ? Lots of feet shuffling perhaps ? Or just stridently say we didn't do it / or they deserved it any way?

Julia you wanted a response to Whiskers comments regarding the disruption America had caused in many countries and the consequent flow of desperate refugees.

I thought Whiskers did respond appropriately (which was why I didn't feel the need to ) but I'll back it up anyway.

*The USA has spearheaded economic sanctions of Iran to force the government to stop production of nuclear capable technology. As a consequence the economic situation in Iran has sharply deteriorated and many Iranians  have tried to get out.  *

Clear enough ? That doesn't even touch the conversations about trashing Iraq or Afganistan and the upheaval that caused. The comment Whiskers made and I concurred with was that one of the causes (not the only one..) of many refugees was American military action.

With regard to many dredging up past American actions as a basis on which to judge a whole country . (Calliopes comment)

Frankly they are are not long past activities. Every Tuesday President Obama makes decisions on who will be targeted by drones.  Guantanamo Bay stills holds hundreds of prisoners accused of terrorism *many of whom have committed no crime * There is no process of justice or releasing prisoners who should never have been there. 

*Check out the  references I have listed below  and ask yourself how should we view America in this light.?*

Chris suggests that it is totally irrelevant that most Muslims seem to be decent, law abiding people who just want to live a good life with their family. I read the article you quoted  Chris and I think there is more than one way of seeing it.

I can see the point that in many instances a small fanatical minority can through force of will and loudness of voice overwhelm a majority that can't/won't stand up to systemic viciousness. 

*Somehow Chris you have decided that rather than directly challenge the behavior of some people the simplest way out is to attack/banish the entire group.* If you continue to do that would you be surprised if you were seen as an enemy and treated accordingly ?

In my view thats not on. Here or anywhere. It is a path to mistrust and community breakdown.

And I repeat I don't believe it's an acceptable way of behavior on ASF (Mods ?) or the wider Australian community.

Cheers


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...uantanamo-Bay-terrorist-secrets-revealed.html
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...ple-about-drone-deaths-and-you-can-be-killed/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lling-49-people-known-terrorist-Pakistan.html


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## Julia (4 October 2013)

basilio said:


> Julia asks why we haven't heard publicly from Muslims that are outraged by terrorist acts. Lots of possibilities here
> 
> 1) Maybe you don't look for these comments



I have just googled "responses by Muslim communities in Australia to recent Kenyan atrocity".
Not a single relevant hit.



> 2) Maybe the mass media isn't that interested in looking for and carrying such comments



OK, if that's the case and it's simply the lack of diligence by the media, I'm sure  you can give us links to specific condemnation by Australian Muslims.



> 3) Given the sort of hysteria that the most vocal shock jocks promote in our community such comments would most likely be  sneered at or taken as evidence of dissembling.



I think this remark is pretty insulting to most people here, very few of whom would be interested in the views of your shock jocks.  I'd also guess that the audience of such obnoxious people more broadly in Australia is less than great.



> 4) Inside the Muslim community there will be pressures to stay quiet or shut up.



Why?  If they were truly outraged, they'd speak out.  There was no such reticence over the cartoons or various events.



> By the way how many of us are prepared to  publicly criticize the actions of our governments/allies or their armies when they commit murder and mayhem ?



There's plenty of it right here, basilio.  Further, I don't know anyone who hasn't been absolutely prepared to express disapproval over various government actions.  



> Julia you wanted a response to Whiskers comments regarding the disruption America had caused in many countries and the consequent flow of desperate refugees.
> 
> I thought Whiskers did respond appropriately (which was why I didn't feel the need to ) but I'll back it up anyway.
> 
> ...



Even if all that constituted those countries being unfit to live in (and bearing in mind that Afghanistan in particular has lived with tribal warfare for pretty much all its existence), that does not make it Australia's responsibility to accept people who decide they'd rather live here than there.

Neither does it offer any justification for people not to apply to come to Australia through the recognised channels.  There are plenty of venues for such applications in many countries between there and here.


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## Chris45 (4 October 2013)

My initial post was concerning the outrageous and highly offensive comments by Sheik Khoder, broadcast by SBS, blaming the whole of Australia for the deaths of his boat people, *comments that you have failed to condemn* and I therefore assume you agree with.

I then expressed concerns for:

(1) The very real problem of the numbers of mainly Islamic boat people who are coming here demanding entry to our country, in complete disregard for our immigration laws, so they can "seek a better life" at our expense (90% of "asylum seekers" since 2003 are still on welfare). Seeking a better life is not a valid reason to demand entry to our country!

(2) The threat to our society and culture of the rapidly growing non-assimilated Muslim communities around us.

You have now twisted this discussion around to holocaust talk of ethnic cleansing and final solutions and appeals to the Mods to step in and silence me! Wow!!!



basilio said:


> 1) Maybe you don't look for these comments
> 2) Maybe the mass media isn't that interested in looking for and carrying such comments
> 3) Given the sort of hysteria that the most vocal shock jocks promote in our community such comments would most likely be  sneered at or taken as evidence of dissembling.
> 4) Inside the Muslim community there will be pressures to stay quiet or shut up.
> ...




1 & 2: The ABC and SBS that I listen to and watch, almost exclusively, is very sympathetic to Muslims and would most certainly publish denunciations of the acts of extremist Muslim barbarism *if they were made.*
4: Yes *and this is the problem!* If they were to stand up and publicly denounce these barbaric acts we could believe their claims to be decent and peaceful people. Remaining silent in the face of these atrocities implies acceptance and approval of the terrorists' actions. How can we respect and trust our Muslims as a group when they continue to remain silent?

Are you not aware of the numerous anti-war protests that many Australians have participated in over the years, going back to the Vietnam war? *Have there been any anti-terrorist protests by Muslims ... anywhere in the world ... ever???*

Anyway, enough about Muslims as a group. This thread is about boat people in general.

I personally will continue to view our Muslims with mistrust until they prove, by their actions, that they are not a threat to my culture and way of life, and you no doubt will continue to believe that they are all wonderful people who are a blessing to us all.

But *please* no more of this stupid talk of ethnic cleansing, final solutions, etc!


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## basilio (4 October 2013)

I notice that no one chose to comment on the evidence of USA continuing  terrorism.I didn't want to make a meal of it but I thought that given the *thousands* of people who have lost their lives to drone attacks it might be worth food for thought.  

Anyone interested in starting a vigil to highlight the people killed every week by USA drone attacks ? Perhaps to demand the release of the hundreds of innocent people still held in Guantamano Bay ?  Maybe even some support for the poor sap who left us know about these criminal acts who is now serving 30 plus years in jail ? 

Your right Chris that the discussion about the fitness of Muslims to be part of Australia is off topic. The fact that your brought the question up at all as a wholesale attack on the Isalmic religion was what I questioned.  You went on to question their right to exist in Australia because in your view particular terrorist activities defined the whole group. You still hold the view that you mistrust all Muslims until the prove their trustworthiness.

Good luck to you. 

I've had enough of this discussion.

Cheers.


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## basilio (4 October 2013)

Oh one final comment.

I do think that the statements by Sheik Kodar were off.  But just to be clear, not standing up and denouncing every bit of racist dribble  doesn't mean I  defacto support it.

On ASF however I do feel compelled to push back against the more extreme views expressed by some people. After all if no one said anything  when people describe the whole Islamic culture as danger to the world you could all say "Well clearly you agree with what we say *because you haven't  publicly opposed it "*


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## noco (4 October 2013)

Yes I realize this is off thread but I thought it should be read as a follow through on previous discussions rather than under the thread "RELIGION IS CRAZY".

I don't mean to stir the pot but these are facts nobody can deny and I may have already posted this many moons ago.

In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: Who lost Europe ?'
Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom, the Netherlands , at the Four Seasons, New York , introducing an Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem .

Dear friends,

Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission.  All is not well in the old world.  There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic.  We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe.  This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West.  The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe .  Then, I will say a few things about Islam.  To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem .

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe .  With larger congregations than there are in churches.  And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region.  Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam , Marseille and Malmo in Sweden .  In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim.   Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods.  Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils.  In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims.  Non-Muslim women routinely hear '*****, *****'.  Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin .  The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves.  Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels , because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.  French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya , Israel .  I could go on forever with stories like this.  Stories about Islamization.

A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe .   San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now.  Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers.  And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate.  But there are few signs of that.  The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France .  One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks.  The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate.  Muslims demand what they call 'respect'.  And this is how we give them respect.  We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority.  We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey ..

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots.   Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus.  I call the perpetrators 'settlers'.  Because that is what they are.  They do not come to integrate into our societies; they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam.  Therefore, they are settlers.

Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries.  Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet.  His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized.  Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem.  But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time.  Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed.  Mohammed himself slaughtered the J ewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.  If it is good for Islam, it is good.  If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion.  Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins.  But in its essence Islam is a political ideology.  It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person.  Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life.  Islam means 'submission'.  Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia.  If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.  The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor.  I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times.  I support Israel .  First, because it is the J ewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz, second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance.   Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines , Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan , Lebanon , and Aceh in Indonesia .   Israel is simply in the way.  The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel .  It is a war against the West.  It is jihad.   Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us.  If there would have been no Israel , Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest.  Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities.  But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values.  On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam.  They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed.  The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning.  It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination.  If they can get Israel , they can get everything.  So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'.  In my country, the Netherlands , 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II.  And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat.  Yet there is a greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing.  The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine.  An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs.  With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome , Athens and J erusalem .

Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts.  My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives.  All throughout Europe , American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish.  My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians.  We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us.  We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams.  Future generations would never forgive us.  We cannot squander our liberties.  We simply do not have the right to do so.

We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.


 Please take the time to read and understand what is written here, Please send it to every free person that you know, it is so very important.


----------



## explod (4 October 2013)

And so noco , what action is to be taken to solve all this?


----------



## noco (4 October 2013)

explod said:


> And so noco , what action is to be taken to solve all this?




Why do you ask me plod?........ Maybe you would be happy to see it happen.........or don't you care?

I think you should direct your question to Scott Morrison, the new Immigration Minister.


----------



## basilio (4 October 2013)

Oops . I meant to directly respond to the comments regarding the lack of appropriate  Muslim response to terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim...slims-when-we-condemn-violence_b_3125564.html


> It took 9,000 officers, five days, and roughly $1 billion in lost revenue for Boston, but suspect one is dead and suspect two is in custody.
> 
> So let me start with the standard roll call: As an American Muslim, I condemn all violence in the name of religion. Terrorism has no religion and Islam is no exception. If the Tsarnaev brothers are guilty of the Boston bombings, then I hope they are brought to justice.
> 
> Is that condemnation clear enough? Because I'm pretty sure a whole lot of people instead read blah blah blah blah blah.




http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/tam/categories/C167

You'll find scores of examples on this site of condemnation of Muslim terrorists acts.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/09/muslims-denounce-nairobi-mall-terrorist-attack-fox-news

Read the whole article and see just how many Muslim organisations condemned the Nairobi mall attack.

http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...669385_1_islamic-society-cair-boston-marathon
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=19139


> Christian and Muslim religious leaders in Kenya have joined in condemning the murderous attack on the Westgate Mall by members of the Somalian radical group al-Shabaab.
> 
> Adan Wachu, the secretary-general of the Supreme Council of Muslims in Kenya, said that his group has sought to ensure inter-religious dialogue. “We are convinced beyond doubt that the attempt to sow seeds of discord between Muslims and Christians will fail miserably and that we shall remain united,” he said.




And so on.

Cheers


----------



## noco (4 October 2013)

noco said:


> Why do you ask me plod?........ Maybe you would be happy to see it happen.........or don't you care?
> 
> I think you should direct your question to Scott Morrison, the new Immigration Minister.




I should ask the question to anyone who prepared to answer.

WHY ARE MUSLIMS INFILTRATING INTO THE WESTERN WORLD IN DROVES AND FORCING THEIR IDEOLOGY ON TO NON MUSLIMS IF THEY ARE NOT AFTER WORLD DOMINATION?


----------



## noco (4 October 2013)

Is this the way we would like to see Australian women treated in the same manner?

I could NOT believe I could hear any sane person say YES.



          More than 1. reason to kick them out of our country.Pity we can't vote on it 

         ****************************************************************************************** 

Subject: Joys of Muslim Women





These are troubling times.

This was written by a woman born in Egypt as a Muslim. This is not heresy, and it will scare you.

Make sure you read the paragraph (in red) towards the end.






Joys of Muslim Women

by Nonie Darwish




In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 1 year old and have sexual intimacy with this child, consummating the marriage by 9. The dowry is given to the family in exchange for the woman (who becomes his slave) and for the purchase of the private parts of the woman, to use her as a toy.







Even though a woman is abused, she can not obtain a divorce.

To prove rape, the woman must have (4) male witnesses.

Often after a woman has been raped, she is returned to her family and the family must return the dowry. The family has the right to execute her (an honor killing) to restore the honor of the family. Husbands can beat their wives 'at will' and the man does not have to say why he has beaten her.It does not matter if she dies from the beating she can always be replaced.




The husband is permitted to have 4 wives and a temporary wife for an hour (prostitute) at his discretion.




The Shariah Muslim law controls the private as well as the public life of the woman.




In the Western World (America) Muslim men are starting to demand Shariah Law so the wife can not obtain a divorce and he can have full and complete control of her.  It is amazing and alarming how many of our sisters and daughters attending American Universities are now marrying Muslim men and submitting themselves and their children unsuspectingly to the Shariah law.




By passing this on, enlightened American women may avoid becoming a slave under Shariah Law.

Ripping the West in Two

Author and lecturer Nonie Darwish says the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and liberty in two.




She recently authored the book,Ã‚ Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law.




Darwish was born in Cairo and spent her childhood in Egypt and Gaza before immigrating to America in 1978, when she was eight years old. Her father died while leading covert attacks on Israel. He was a high-ranking Egyptian military officer stationed with his family in Gaza .




When he died, he was considered a "shahid," a martyr for jihad. His posthumous status earned Nonie and her family an elevated position in Muslim society.




But Darwish developed a skeptical eye at an early age. She questioned her own Muslim culture and upbringing. She converted to Christianity after hearing a Christian preacher on television.




In her latest book, Darwish warns about creeping sharia law - what it is, what it means, and how it is manifested in Islamic countries.




For the West, she says radical Islamists are working to impose sharia on the world. If that happens, Western civilization will be destroyed. Westerners generally assume all religions encourage a respect for the dignity of each individual. Islamic law (Sharia) teaches that non-Muslims should be subjugated or killed in this world.




Peace and prosperity for one's children is not as important as assuring that Islamic law rules everywhere in the Middle East and eventually in the world.




While Westerners tend to think that all religions encourage some form of the golden rule, Sharia teaches two systems of ethics - one for Muslims and another for non-Muslims. Building on tribal practices of the seventh century, Sharia encourages the side of humanity that wants to take from and subjugate others.




While Westerners tend to think in terms of religious people developing a personal understanding of and relationship with God, Sharia advocates executing people who ask difficult questions that could be interpreted as criticism.




It's hard to imagine, that in this day and age, Islamic scholars agree that those who criticize Islam or choose to stop being Muslim should be executed. Sadly, while talk of an Islamic reformation is common and even assumed by many in the West, such murmurings in the Middle East are silenced through intimidation.




While Westerners are accustomed to an increase in religious tolerance over time, Darwish explains how petro dollars are being used to grow an extremely intolerant form of political Islam in her native Egypt and elsewhere.




In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U.S. to elect the President by themselves! Rest assured they will do so... You can look at how they have taken over several towns in the USA .. Dearborn Mich. is one... and there are others...




I think everyone in the U.S. should be required to read this, but with the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on!




It is too bad that so many are disillusioned with life and Christianity to accept Muslims as peaceful.. some may be but they have an army that is willing to shed blood in the name of Islam.. the peaceful support the warriors with their finances and own kind of patriotism to their religion. While America is getting rid of Christianity from all public sites and erasing God from the lives of children the Muslims are planning a great jihad on America ..




This is your chance to make a difference...! Pass it on to your email list or at least those you think will listen..


----------



## noco (4 October 2013)

CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD Australians?    This is certainly 'food-for-thought' .

This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish.  And send it on to everyone.  Maybe this is why our Australian Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.


         Can a good Muslim be a good Australian?


This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia  for 20 years.


The following is his reply:


Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia .


Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam .  (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)


Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.


Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.


Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews .


Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America the great Satan, Australia and the rest of the free world.


Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )


Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the Australian Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.


Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.


Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.


Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Australians [or good Englishmen or good Americans!].  Call it what you wish, it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country [ and yours] and our future.


The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. .....


Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.   SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.


THE AUSSIE DIGGERS WANT THIS TO ROLL OUT ALL OVER AUSTRALIA .


Please don't delete this until you send it on.


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## Chris45 (4 October 2013)

noco said:


> Yes I realize this is off thread but I thought it should be read as a follow through on previous discussions rather than under the thread "RELIGION IS CRAZY".



Good post Noco!

Much of what Geert Wilders said is supported by news reports I've heard over the years. It's unfortunate that he has called himself an Islam hater because that gives people an excuse to denigrate him and brand him a loony racist, but I believe we should listen to his warnings.

The Refugee Convention desperately needs an overhaul because of the way it is being abused by the mainly Islamic economic refugees seeking better lives in Western countries. They only have to claim a belief of persecution to be granted asylum and how easy would it be to fabricate a story to satisfy that requirement. It's just crazy!

At the moment our multicultural society functions quite well, in the main, but if we're not careful we could lose the stability we currently enjoy if the Islamic community is allowed to increase by the continuing influx of these "asylum seekers". We should learn from the mistakes of others so we don't suffer the same problems.

I don't know of any other culture or religion that cause so many problems as these people! We need to introduce quotas on each of our cultural and religious groups to maintain a healthy balance.

How about we only take people in who can find sponsors here? Any refugee who couldn't find a sponsor would have to either go home or wait in Indonesia until they could. There are organizations devoted to sponsoring refugees looking for better lives, eg   http://www.sanctuaryaustraliafoundation.org.au/ 

All of our asylum seeker advocates so keen on welcoming refugees and their children could tithe (10%) from their salary or welfare benefits to this fund to sponsor these people and provide for their food, accommodation and education until they can find employment and support themselves. Those with spare rooms in their houses could easily take families in and provide full board for them. No more demands on Centrelink ... refugee problem solved!


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## Julia (4 October 2013)

It's unfortunate that these threads always seem to denigrate into extreme views on both sides, rather than reasonable discussion.

Basilio, you've not addressed my main point in terms of the boat people, i.e. that they have been arriving (at least under Labor) in such numbers that their processing is adversely affecting those who have applied to come legitimately to Australia.  Effectively this means that we are admitting asylum seekers not on the basis of need, but rather on the basis of their ability to pay people smugglers.

Those coming from Iran, Lebanon etc have multiple places at which to make formal application.  Why are they not doing this, and are you happy with the reality that they are putting at even greater disadvantage those with seemingly greater need, as they land here, looking healthy, often wearing designer clothes, and carrying laptops?

And to basilio and Whiskers, you have not explained how any grievance anyone might have in the Middle East against America translates into Australia having a responsibility to admit them via the boat express.

Enough of ranting about America.  Instead, your addressing of the above points would be more useful.

PS  Good to hear today that the government is making available 500 places in the humanitarian refugee program for Syrians driven from their homes.


----------



## drsmith (4 October 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday October 04*

The briefing which would have taken place on Monday October 07 was brought forward due to the public holiday on that day.



> The Vice Chief of the Defence Force Mark Binskin, who is acting as the head of the Government’s new border protection operation, says one asylum seeker boat arrived this week.
> 
> The 79 people on board were transferred to Christmas Island on Monday.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...-interpreters-families-scott-morrison/4998990



drsmith said:


> *Operation Sovereign Borders update Monday September 30*
> 
> 95 passengers from 3 boats. Of these, 7 were West Papuans who have since been returned to PNG. A further 18 are the Indians who arrived in Darwin and are expected to be returned to India. The remaining 70 people from a third boat were transferred to detention on Christmas Island.
> 
> ...


----------



## Calliope (5 October 2013)

Breast enlargement??? Economic "refugees" are attracted by our free medical service.



> *ASYLUM-SEEKERS have asked doctors for breast enlargements, IVF treatment and botox,* according to the former director of medical health services for Australia's offshore asylum processing network.
> 
> Ling Yoong, who helped set up medical services on Nauru and Manus Island and worked on Christmas Island, said the cosmetic operations were requested when asylum-seekers underwent other regular medical checks and necessary treatment.
> 
> ...




- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...y-fn9hm1gu-1226733279729#sthash.wxpn2j2j.dpuf


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## Julia (5 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> Breast enlargement??? Economic "refugees" are attracted by our free medical service.



Yep, heard that on ABC Radio yesterday.  Unbelievable.


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## Chris45 (5 October 2013)

Calliope said:


> Breast enlargement??? Economic "refugees" are attracted by our free medical service.



Why on earth do we continue to call them "asylum seekers"???
And why does the media continue to excuse their illegal arrivals because they're "only seeking a better life"?
I certainly hope Mr. Abbott and his team can put and end to this nonsense.


----------



## bunyip (5 October 2013)

Julia said:


> Bunyip, it sounds as though the blokes you were talking with were "bikers", as distinct from "bikies".
> There's a world of difference.




Yes Julia, that’s a fair point, and one that I was already aware of.

The point I was making, and I make again now, is that just because basilio has found some Muslims of his acquaintance to be nice and decent people, he shouldn't be lulled into assuming that Muslims generally who come here will just live their lives without interfering with and changing our way of life.
Such an assumption would be akin to believing that because we know there are some decent people who ride motorbikes, we should assume there is no threat from anyone who rides motorbikes.
Even some of the so-called outlaw bikie outfits have done decent things such as raising considerable amounts of money for charities. While we should acknowledge and commend them for it, clearly it would be a mistake to judge them as decent people who will not adversely affect the rest of us.
The same thing can be said about Muslims – they _*will*_ affect us and they’re already doing so -  even the nicer more decent ones among them.


----------



## johenmo (5 October 2013)

bunyip said:


> Here’s a link to an article that might, just might, give you and others like you an urgently needed wake up call. Don’t just dismiss it as more anti-Islamic hatred. Read it and read it again, then read it a third time, and think, really think, about what it says.
> http://increasingawareness.tumblr.c...dical-islam-vs-nazi-germany-a-germans-view-on




It appears the article was written by second generation Canadian Paul E. Marek and was first published in a right-wing Israeli newspaper Arutz Sheva, Israel National News.  Tanay is Polish. 

Original article:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/6996#.Uk_QndLz1kk


----------



## Chris45 (5 October 2013)

bunyip said:


> The same thing can be said about Muslims – they _*will*_ affect us and they’re already doing so -  even the nicer more decent ones among them.



Some examples of Islam already imposing its will on our society:

*In 2006, the then Federal Treasurer Peter Costello declared that _"there was no place for sharia laws in secular society like Australia," because being an Australian means that "you do have to believe in democracy, the rule of law and the rights and liberties of others"._

*Labor came to power and in 2009, Chris Bowen, claimed that introducing sharia finance into Australia will create more jobs.

*NAB subsequently introduced Islamic loans. http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...m-friendly-loans/story-e6frfkp9-1225734465168

*Sharia law at work in Australia   http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ork-in-australia/story-fn59niix-1226097889992
_"Sharia law has become a shadow legal system within Australia, endorsing polygamous and underage marriages that are outlawed under the Marriage Act."_

*The secretary of the Australian Islamic Mission, Siddiq Buckley said, _"There are practical examples of [sharia] here already. We have Muslim schools, mosques, funeral parlours, shops and businesses. We’ve got abattoirs, Islamic charities, Islamic financial institutions. There are so many things – halal meals served on airlines. This is all part of Sharia.”_

*Council swimming pools are closed to the general public each week so that Muslim women can enjoy a swim free of the evil eyes of us infidels.   Monash Council even paid $66,000 for special curtains to ensure Muslim women's privacy during the sessions.

*Christmas carols and decorations have been banned from some schools because they might offend Muslims.

*Muslims have demanded halal food in our supermarkets.

*Cadbury chocolate, Bega cheese, Leggo and Dolmio pasta sauces now carry halal certification. (Where do the fees paid to the "Halal Certification Authority - Australia" go???)

*Special washing and toilet facilities for Muslims have been established in schools and universities.

*Dedicated prayer areas for Muslims have been established in institutions and work places.

*There have been demands for women to wear hijabs in Muslim dominated areas. (When we go to their countries we're expected to observe their dress code, but when they come to our country we're still expected to observe their dress code ... huh???)

Etc, etc.

We can look forward to more of this as their numbers increase through both legal AND illegal migration.

Interesting Facebook pages:
https://www.facebook.com/ForcingShariaLawInAustralia
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Australia-says-NO-to-Islam-Sharia-Law/107524849326121


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## noco (6 October 2013)

Chris45 said:


> Some examples of Islam already imposing its will on our society:
> 
> *In 2006, the then Federal Treasurer Peter Costello declared that _"there was no place for sharia laws in secular society like Australia," because being an Australian means that "you do have to believe in democracy, the rule of law and the rights and liberties of others"._
> 
> ...




Good post Chris......Yes Islam is well and trully entrenched here in Australia although we see very little of it in Townsville.

BE AFRAID..............BE VERY AFRAID..........once they get enough numbers here they will start to make their demands.

Don't forget.....we already have one muslim in Federal Parliament.........he took oath on the Quran..........maybe will see another and another as time goes on...........They say Ed Kusack is a future Prime Minister........OMG.


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## Macquack (6 October 2013)

noco said:


> BE AFRAID..............BE VERY AFRAID..........once they get enough numbers here they will start to make their demands.




Noco, are you saying a muslim is a greater threat to Australia than a labor voter?


----------



## drsmith (9 October 2013)

What is now being raised between the boats,

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3865059.htm

With a pause in the boats, the bleeding hearts are back to their usual arguments.


----------



## sails (9 October 2013)

drsmith said:


> What is now being raised between the boats,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3865059.htm
> 
> With a pause in the boats, the bleeding hearts are back to their usual arguments.




I wonder sometimes if these so called bleeding hearts care about the genuine refugees who are likely being made to wait even longer because of those with money and expensive luggage who push their way in here without ID...


----------



## Julia (9 October 2013)

sails said:


> I wonder sometimes if these so called bleeding hearts care about the genuine refugees who are likely being made to wait even longer because of those with money and expensive luggage who push their way in here without ID...



That exact question has been asked of them many times, including of some on this forum.   I've never seen a response.


----------



## Julia (9 October 2013)

On 23 September national broadcaster Tony Delroy claimed in his program that 90% of asylum seekers during the Pacific Solution had ended up in Australia.  This was clearly completely wrong.  I sent in a formal complaint to the ABC Complaints Procedure, pointing out that the actual figure was 43%.

I have today received a response which is as follows and which shows how the ABC will twist and turn to avoid acknowledging any misrepresentation of the facts.  

If I can summon up the energy, I could now send it on to ACMA.  It's my bet that most people will give up in the face of the ABC bureaucratic stuff below.



> Thank you for your email of 24 September concerning comments made about refugee resettlement number by Tony Delroy on Nightlife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bolding is mine.  That is complete crap.  He stated the 90% as fact. 



> The figures you have quoted were for illegal maritime arrivals (IMAs) sent to Nauru and Manus Island under the so-called “Pacific Solution”. However, the Pacific Solution only handled a small minority of asylum seekers during the Howard years. 1,637 people were sent to Nauru and Manus while more than 11,000 asylum seekers were given Temporary Protection Visas by the Howard government, mostly before the Pacific Solution was implemented. Of those 11,000 approximately 90% were given permanent visas http://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliam...entary_library/pubs/bn/2012-2013/boatarrivals. Exact figures are difficult to pin down for “the Howard years” as it does not correlate directly with the Immigration Department’s reporting periods and consolidated statistics are not published for all the different legal actions involving asylum seekers, however, as a general approximation, quoting an estimate of about 90% is not materially misleading.
> 
> As a point of comparison, more recent data shows that well in excess of 90% of IMAs have been deemed refugees by independent tribunals in recent years http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/stat-as.php
> 
> ...


----------



## Whiskers (10 October 2013)

Julia said:


> On 23 September national broadcaster Tony Delroy claimed in his program that 90% of asylum seekers during the Pacific Solution had ended up in Australia.  This was clearly completely wrong.  I sent in a formal complaint to the ABC Complaints Procedure, pointing out that the actual figure was 43%.
> 
> I have today received a response which is as follows and which shows how the ABC will twist and turn to avoid acknowledging any misrepresentation of the facts.
> 
> ...




Julia, can you clarify what you mean by 'ended up in Aus', ie before or after processing?


----------



## Julia (10 October 2013)

The suggestion was made by a caller, as it had been hundreds of times before and not corrected until the debate between Rudd and Abbott during the election campaign, that "most of the people sent to Nauru ended up in Australia anyway".  Rudd repeated this during the debate, and finally Abbott made the firm correction that it was in fact 43%.  (You can check this out on Politifact.)  

Mr Delroy agreed and added, "in fact it was 90% who ended up in Australia".  Ergo, after processing and being given permanent visas.


----------



## Ijustnewit (10 October 2013)

Julia said:


> The suggestion was made by a caller, as it had been hundreds of times before and not corrected until the debate between Rudd and Abbott during the election campaign, that "most of the people sent to Nauru ended up in Australia anyway".  Rudd repeated this during the debate, and finally Abbott made the firm correction that it was in fact 43%.  (You can check this out on Politifact.)
> 
> Mr Delroy agreed and added, "in fact it was 90% who ended up in Australia".  Ergo, after processing and being given permanent visas.




Julia if you ever decided to run for office , you would have my vote for sure.


----------



## Whiskers (10 October 2013)

Julia said:


> The suggestion was made by a caller, as it had been hundreds of times before and not corrected until the debate between Rudd and Abbott during the election campaign, that "most of the people sent to Nauru ended up in Australia anyway".  Rudd repeated this during the debate, and finally Abbott made the firm correction that it was in fact 43%.  (You can check this out on Politifact.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for that Julia.

It could be a bit of a case of there are three types of lies... lies, damn lies, and statistics!



> Using figures from the Department of Immigration and Citizenship, the report says of the 1637 people taken to Nauru or Manus Island, 1153 were resettled (70.4%). However, 705 were resettled in Australia (43%). That’s 61%, if you look at the proportion of resettled refugees that ended up in Australia.
> 
> As a percentage of resettled cases, the others were taken to New Zealand (34.8%), Sweden (1.8%), Canada (1.4%), Denmark (0.5%), and Norway (0.3%). In total, 448 people were resettled in countries other than Australia - 27.3% of the total Nauru/Manus Island cases.
> 
> The report says 483 people voluntarily returned (29.5%) - whatever you may think of ‘voluntarily returned’. One death was recorded. http://www.politifact.com.au/truth-...vin-rudd/how-many-asylum-seekers-ended-austr/



Because of the Trans Tasman agreements, it could well still be that "most of the people sent to Nauru ended up in Australia anyway". 

Without getting into the strict interpretation of the question and answers, it would be interesting to know how many did stay in NZ after the technical "resettlement" and how many eventually skipped across the Tasman to Aus, "anyway". Are there any restrictions on their resettlement such as to stop them from then migrating or just jumping on a plane or boat to Aus and staying as an illegal? 

The Howard era was better at making the 'statistics' appear better and did turn back many more... but not without it's controversy over human rights. 

Eventually though, the better policy must be to absolutely deny resettlement of 'boat people' in Aus and while it won't stop the stupid or wealthy from trying to buy their way in, it will in time slow the enthusiasm for people trying... unless they see a viable roundabout way via NZ or PNG and Narau for that matter.

Does anyone know if there is a condition (or just political noise), or can it be mandated that these people never get an Aus Visa ever, not even in a roundabout way?


----------



## Julia (10 October 2013)

Ijustnewit said:


> Julia if you ever decided to run for office , you would have my vote for sure.



Hah, Ijustnewit, I could think of nothing worse



Whiskers said:


> Thanks for that Julia.
> 
> It could be a bit of a case of there are three types of lies... lies, damn lies, and statistics!
> 
> ...



Perhaps it could, but I doubt very much that that is what happened.  I listen to a lot of ABC Radio and, although the original misstatement has been peddled ad infinitum, I have never heard a single suggestion that people being settled in NZ later came to Australia.

I would think a strong deterrent for this is the reality that if NZ accepted people then it would be on a similar basis to that on which they're accepted into Australia, viz with considerable welfare benefits and other supports such as language assistance, accommodation, assistance in finding work etc.

New Zealanders coming to Australia have no access to welfare or other support with the exception of the reciprocal health agreement via Medicare, so I doubt that the presentation of the relevant paperwork which had admitted them to NZ - along with presumably extensive records by the appropriate government departments - would give them access, on arrival in Australia, of the benefits they'd have received in NZ.

So I don't really think such a suggestion in fact excuses the ongoing supporting of a complete untruth by the ABC, especially as such suggestion has never been made before to my knowledge by either the ABC or any of its apologists.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 October 2013)

sails said:


> I wonder sometimes if these so called bleeding hearts care about the genuine refugees who are likely being made to wait even longer because of those with money and expensive luggage who push their way in here without ID...






Julia said:


> That exact question has been asked of them many times, including of some on this forum.   I've never seen a response.




I have long supported migrants arriving on boats over government, at some cost amongst other posters and my friends.

However I am now of the opinion that we are dealing with a significant number of the illegal arrivals by boat over the last few years being predominantly from the "Gucci Gulag".

These rich educated and others of the upper class in their own countries, who through Kevin Rudd's mismanagement of our borders see Australia as a handy place to continue their commercial and ethnic business, before returning with citizenship in place to the "Gucci Gulag".

I feel very sorry for the poor and dispossessed waiting in an everlengthening queue while these rich bastards get in on a Rudd Visa Card.

gg


----------



## banco (10 October 2013)

sails said:


> I wonder sometimes if these so called bleeding hearts care about the genuine refugees who are likely being made to wait even longer because of those with money and expensive luggage who push their way in here without ID...




They'd only be made to wait longer as a result of Government decisions that the "bleeding hearts" disagree with.  There's not necessarily any connection between how many "genuine refugees" are taken from camps and how many people arrive by boat beyond whatever connections the Government wants to draw.  The "bleeding hearts" position would be a humanitarian intake of say 50000 annually from refugee camps and that number stays the same no matter how many come by boat.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 October 2013)

banco said:


> They'd only be made to wait longer as a result of Government decisions that the "bleeding hearts" disagree with.  There's not necessarily any connection between how many "genuine refugees" are taken from camps and how many people arrive by boat beyond whatever connections the Government wants to draw.  The "bleeding hearts" position would be a humanitarian intake of say 50000 annually from refugee camps and that number stays the same no matter how many come by boat.




In other words "Queue jumpers rule, ok "

gg


----------



## bellenuit (10 October 2013)

banco said:


> They'd only be made to wait longer as a result of Government decisions that the "bleeding hearts" disagree with.  There's not necessarily any connection between how many "genuine refugees" are taken from camps and how many people arrive by boat beyond whatever connections the Government wants to draw.  The "bleeding hearts" position would be a humanitarian intake of say 50000 annually from refugee camps and that number stays the same no matter how many come by boat.




But why should it stay the same? Are you saying Australia doesn't have the right to set its refugee intake? Because what "the bleeding hearts" advocate effectively gives control of our intake to people smugglers. And since they also want to make it easier for refugees to come by means other than a controlled selection from those in the camps, that would be a massive drawcard for people to come through other channels.

Make it 75K or 100K annually from those in the camps and it will have no effect whatsoever on those choosing to come by other means, if they know they are guaranteed the right to stay in Australia should immigration authorities not be able to prove they are not genuine refugees (which is very hard to do when they have no papers).

If your goal is to maximise the number of refugees that Australia can take in, then stopping the boats is the best policy. I don't have figures, but it must be patently obvious that it costs a lot less per head to bring in, by regular transport, a person who is in a camp and has already been vetted by the UN than it costs to process those coming by boat when you consider all the costs that we are incurring with our navy effectively a taxi service. 

The only way to make the costs of unregulated arrivals comparable to those coming from the camps would be for Australia to fly them directly from Jakarta or Colombo or wherever to Australia (which I think is The Greens policy). But that only makes the cost per head comparable from a transportation point of view. We would then have to do the processing in Australia that is currently done by the UN overseas and would additionally incur the costs of returning those not qualified, as well as the costs to keep them while they are here and any legal costs should they be able to appeal decisions. 

And would that stop the boats? Of course not. Those that know they would not be accepted as refugees if they arrived with proper documentation will still choose the sea route and destroy their documentation as they do today. But by what you are advocating, they should be accepted as well. 

If we assume that Australia has a limited budget that can be allocated to our refugee intake, which every rational person knows is the case, then it is clearly obvious that the biggest enemy of genuine refugees are "the bleeding hearts". Their ill thought through solutions would be an absolute disaster for genuine refugees if implemented and would be an absolute disaster for Australia as well. It is just pie in the sky nonsense.


----------



## banco (10 October 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> In other words "Queue jumpers rule, ok "
> 
> gg




In other words until a decision by the Howard Government the number of boatpeople had no effect on Australia's humanitarian intake.  Then Howard introduced a policy of for every successful refugee who came by boat Australia's humanitarian intake would be decreased by 1.   So screwing over "genuine refugees" in favour of "queue jumpers" was a deliberate policy decision that could be reversed at any time if Australia chose to do so. 

In any case the idea that those who are most opposed to people coming by boat are chomping at the bit to increase Australia's humanitarian intake is laughable.


----------



## Julia (10 October 2013)

bellenuit said:


> But why should it stay the same? Are you saying Australia doesn't have the right to set its refugee intake? Because what "the bleeding hearts" advocate effectively gives control of our intake to people smugglers. And since they also want to make it easier for refugees to come by means other than a controlled selection from those in the camps, that would be a massive drawcard for people to come through other channels.
> 
> Make it 75K or 100K annually from those in the camps and it will have no effect whatsoever on those choosing to come by other means, if they know they are guaranteed the right to stay in Australia should immigration authorities not be able to prove they are not genuine refugees (which is very hard to do when they have no papers).
> 
> ...




+1.  Exactly.


----------



## bellenuit (10 October 2013)

banco said:


> In other words until a decision by the Howard Government the number of boatpeople had no effect on Australia's humanitarian intake.  Then Howard introduced a policy of for every successful refugee who came by boat Australia's humanitarian intake would be decreased by 1.   So screwing over "genuine refugees" in favour of "queue jumpers" was a deliberate policy decision that could be reversed at any time if Australia chose to do so.




That is why the policy is to stop the boats.  

And if, as you are implying, that Australian's humanitarian intake is reduced by 1 for every person arriving by boat, then you must be assuming those who come by boat are not part of our humanitarian intake. Why not, unless you believe they are not genuine refugees?

And if you believe they are genuine refugees, then you must accept that given our resources are limited, then overall our refugee intake will be a lot less than otherwise by accepting those coming by irregular means as I explained in my last post.



> In any case the idea that those who are most opposed to people coming by boat are chomping at the bit to increase Australia's humanitarian intake is laughable.




I can't speak for others, but I am completely against boat arrivals for the reason I have given and I have in several posts advocated an increase in intake by regular means.


----------



## banco (11 October 2013)

bellenuit said:


> But why should it stay the same? Are you saying Australia doesn't have the right to set its refugee intake? Because what "the bleeding hearts" advocate effectively gives control of our intake to people smugglers. And since they also want to make it easier for refugees to come by means other than a controlled selection from those in the camps, that would be a massive drawcard for people to come through other channels.
> 
> Make it 75K or 100K annually from those in the camps and it will have no effect whatsoever on those choosing to come by other means, if they know they are guaranteed the right to stay in Australia should immigration authorities not be able to prove they are not genuine refugees (which is very hard to do when they have no papers).
> 
> ...




Of course Australia has a limited budget but   most Western European nations take far more refugees per capita than Australia.  As I said Australia has made a policy choice to take a certain number of refugees from camps a year.  It could easily make a policy choice to take more if it chose to do so.    The idea that the policy choice to effectively take less from the camps due to boat arrivals has been forced on us by those devilish queue jumpers lest the Government go broke is ridiculous given the policy didn't exist until the Howard Government.


----------



## banco (11 October 2013)

bellenuit said:


> That is why the policy is to stop the boats.
> 
> And if, as you are implying, that Australian's humanitarian intake is reduced by 1 for every person arriving by boat, then you must be assuming those who come by boat are not part of our humanitarian intake. Why not, unless you believe they are not genuine refugees?
> 
> ...




I don't think you're keeping up with things.  The argument from the right was that "bleeding hearts" need to think about the fact that these boat people prevent refugees from camps etc. overseas from been resettled in Australia.  The obvious response (which Julia never seems to have come across before) is that for the "bleeding hearts" a connection need not be drawn between the number arriving by boat and the number drawn up for Australia's humanitarian intake each year.  That way there could be no talk about how "queue jumpers" had diddled genuine refugees out of a spot.  

Lots of people who are all for stopping the boats will add that they'd be happy to increase the refugee intake from camps etc. but even if the boats slow to a trickle I'm not going to be holding my breath for Tony to increase the humanitarian intake. 


REDUCE HUMANITARIAN REFUGEE INTAKE (save $1.3 billion)

The Gillard government increased Australia's annual intake of humanitarian refugees from 13,750 places to 20,000. Tony Abbott initially said he supported the increase. But in its search for savings, the Coalition has pledged to reduce it back to 13,750 places a year, booking a saving of $1.3 billion across the four year budget horizon.


----------



## drsmith (11 October 2013)

Julia said:


> On 23 September national broadcaster Tony Delroy claimed in his program that 90% of asylum seekers *during the Pacific Solution* had ended up in Australia.  This was clearly completely wrong.  I sent in a formal complaint to the ABC Complaints Procedure, pointing out that the actual figure was 43%.




Part of the ABC's reply,



> Mr Delroy said that he believed about 90% or more of refugees who arrived in Australia *“during the Howard years”* were resettled in Australia. The number was clearly an approximation.






Julia said:


> That is complete crap.  He stated the 90% as fact.




I'm very curious to listen to the audio or read a transcript from that show, particularly in light of the comment above from the ABC about it being an approximation and also the following as part of their justification,



> As a point of comparison, more recent data shows that well in excess of 90% of IMAs have been deemed refugees by independent tribunals in recent years http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/stat-as.php




As the data in the justification is acknowledged by the ABC as being more recent than Tony Delroy's, the ABC were unable to defend his comment from what he actually knew at the time, hence the approximation excuse. 

Neither the audio or transcript though appears to be on the ABC's Nightlife's webpage archive. This is important to understand firstly his exact words and secondly, the impression he was trying to give from those words (my bolds).

http://www.abc.net.au/nightlife/archive_program.htm


----------



## Julia (11 October 2013)

banco said:


> I don't think you're keeping up with things.  The argument from the right was that "bleeding hearts" need to think about the fact that these boat people prevent refugees from camps etc. overseas from been resettled in Australia.  The obvious response (which Julia never seems to have come across before) is that for the "bleeding hearts" a connection need not be drawn between the number arriving by boat and the number drawn up for Australia's humanitarian intake each year.  That way there could be no talk about how "queue jumpers" had diddled genuine refugees out of a spot.



The reality is that - for budget and any other reason either flavour of government chooses to select - there is a limit to the overall intake.  Most reasonable people would agree with that.  So, as long as that policy is in place people coming by boat in large numbers are not only filling the capacity, but also stretching the department's capacity for processing.

What would you actually have happen?  Do you believe Australia should have completely open borders?
That we should simply welcome everyone who decides they'd like to come and live here?



drsmith said:


> I'm very curious to listen to the audio or read a transcript from that show, particularly in light of the comment above from the ABC about it being an approximation and also the following as part of their justification,
> 
> As the data in the justification is acknowledged by the ABC as being more recent than Tony Delroy's, the ABC were unable to defend his comment from what he actually knew at the time, hence the approximation excuse.
> 
> ...



No, "Nightlife" transcripts are never available.  Consequently any complaints can be dismissed as this one has.  It's now some time ago and he hasn't to my hearing repeated the same claim.  Jeez, even Kevin Rudd's claim of 70% wasn't as outrageous as Delroy's 90%.  It's the same reason complaints about his constant Labor bias in his frequent political discussions never go anywhere - it's never possible to access the transcript.

I've sent the ABC's reply to Politifact.  No idea if they will respond.  No idea, either, whether their own political persuasions might mean they would prefer not to look at criticism of the ABC.


----------



## drsmith (11 October 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday October 11*

One boat in the past week intercepted off Cocos Island late yesterday.



> JUST one asylum seeker boat arrived in Australian waters in the past week. Operation Sovereign Borders Acting Commander, Air Marshal Mark Binskin, said the boat was intercepted late on Thursday off the Cocos (Keeling) Islands.
> 
> The number of people on board was not released because the passengers were still to be processed at Christmas Island, Air Marshal Binskin told reporters in Sydney on Friday.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...intercepted-govt/story-fn3dxiwe-1226738268143 

Michael Smith's thoughts on where this boat may have come from,



> That's a long way from Christmas Island and more on the route from Sri Lanka than the course taken by boats departing Indonesia and aiming for Australian territory.




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...and-shaz-is-now-home-on-christmas-island.html

Operations in Indonesia since the election,



> MORE than 550 would-be asylum-seekers have been stopped from getting on boats in Indonesia since the federal election as a result of cooperation with Jakarta.
> 
> Australian Federal Police chief commissioner Tony Negus said three “high-value targets” had been arrested in Indonesia, and a warrant issued for a people-smuggling kingpin.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...sian-authorities/story-fn9hm1gu-1226738304026

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on one boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: An unknown number at this stage on 1 boat.



drsmith said:


> *Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday October 04*
> 
> The briefing which would have taken place on Monday October 07 was brought forward due to the public holiday on that day.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...-interpreters-families-scott-morrison/4998990


----------



## Julia (11 October 2013)

It looks as if Indonesia is already demonstrating some intervention at their end.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...ong-alleged-people-smugglers-arrested/5017056


----------



## noco (11 October 2013)

Julia said:


> It looks as if Indonesia is already demonstrating some intervention at their end.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-...ong-alleged-people-smugglers-arrested/5017056




It certainly shows up the poor relationship the Labor Party had with the Indonesians.

The silence from Tony Bourke and the Labor Party is deafening.

These people were saying just a week ago, the Sovereign Border Operation would not work.....perhaps it was wishful thinkg.


----------



## drsmith (12 October 2013)

HMAS Warramunga unloading on Christmas Island today.



> Approx 60-70 POB Afghani/Sri Lankan/Middle Eastern - about 6 kids ......maybe a dozen females




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/10/shaz-is-back-heres-hmas-warramunga-unloading-today.html

Unknown as to whether this was the intercept near Cocos Island late Thursday.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (12 October 2013)

The argument viz a viz Australia's management of illegal migrants, and that of Europe needs to take in to account our Secure Borders in Australia.

Europe has lost those, and regrets it.

We have not since the return of the Coalition to government.

That is the great political debate we need to have.

Secure Borders vs Compassionate Access for Needy People.

gg


----------



## drsmith (12 October 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Secure Borders vs Compassionate Access for Needy People.



Add to that our national interest and that all these objectives shouldn't be seen as competing objectives.


----------



## johenmo (13 October 2013)

I like to think I have a say over who does and doesn't enter my house, and who can stay or not.  And the same applies to our country.  Australia is the easiest touch out of all the countries in the region or the boats would be going elsewhere or staying where they have already landed.


----------



## bunyip (14 October 2013)

*This was emailed to me by a friend - it's an interesting read. *

*********************************************************************************


The question I ask is; "How can the authorities know if they are letting in radicals into the country?

Arab Mentality

This pretty well tells us what we're up against. These people and their "religion" are not civilized, as we understand civilization.



________________________________

From: Dr. Arieh Eldad:

 I was instrumental in establishing the Israeli National Skin Bank, which is the largest in the world.

The National Skin Bank stores skin for every day needs as well as for war time or mass casualty situations.

This skin bank is hosted at the Hadassah Ein Kerem University hospital in Jerusalem where I was the Chairman of plastic surgery.

This is how I was asked to supply skin for an Arab woman from Gaza, who was hospitalized in Soroka Hospital in Beersheva, after her family burned her.

Usually, such atrocities happen among Arab families when the women are suspected of having an affair.

We supplied all the needed Homografts for her treatment.

She was successfully treated by my friend and colleague, Prof. Lior Rosenberg and discharged to return to Gaza.

She was invited for regular follow-up visits to the outpatient clinic in Beersheva.

One day she was caught at a border crossing wearing a suicide belt.

She meant to explode herself in the outpatient clinic of the hospital where they saved her life.

It seems that her family promised her that if she did that, they would forgive her.

This is only one example of the war between Jews and Muslims in the Land of Israel. It is not a territorial conflict.

This is a conflict of civilizations or rather a war between civilization & barbarism.

I have never written so seriously before asking to please forward onwards so that as many as possible can understand radical Islam and what awaits the world if it is not stopped.



Dr Arieh Eldad


----------



## basilio (14 October 2013)

Fascinating story Bunyip.  And just for once it is actually largely true .  (Isn't it a shame how most of the email tales are just that - tales to incite hatred)

And even this one has been twisted to  further the propaganda values of the perps.  ( Naturally the twists make it even darker.)

Check out the real story at Snopes. 



> Everything up to and including "a war between civilization & barbarism" in the piece quoted
> above is a direct excerpt from an interview given by Dr. Eldad to New English Review in November 2008. *The line "Bibi (Netanyahu) gets it, Obama does not" and everything beyond it is not; that section was added by some unknown person.*
> 
> As to the veracity of Eldad's story about a burn patient turned suicide bomber, it is indeed an account of an actual incident, except for the small detail of how the aspiring terrorist came by her burns. (She was injured by a gas tank explosion rather than deliberately by her family in retaliation for a suspected affair.
> Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/israel/eldad.asp#fggJoY2EMctkFCL1.99


----------



## basilio (14 October 2013)

I was wondering how many people are aware of  the Snopes website  apropos to my last post on the accuracy of many circulating email messages ?

Bunyip story is not the first one to come around and in fact is reasonably accurate (even though it has been significantly altered). 

Just for interest check out some of the current  fraud emails being circulated particularly around  Muslims and Obama care.

Claim:   A provision of Obamacare allows federal agents to conduct forced home inspections and remove children from the custody of their parents.

	FALSE

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/homeinspections.asp#dKMcdzTWK9M0XsTG.99
________________________________________________________________


Claim:   Attorney's essay challenges the constitutionality of health care reform legislation.

	OUTDATED

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/connelly.asp#VfSHhrKyOYj2BmFU.99
 ________________________________________________________________

Claim:   Letter from Judge David Kithil provides accurate line item criticisms of "Obamacare" health care reform legislation.

	FALSE

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/kithil.asp#hqPGG75RBm0SVUV7.99

_________________________________________________________________________

Claim:   Health care legislation requires that U.S. residents be implanted with RFID microchips.

	FALSE

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/microchip.asp#LWkhLSZUFLv5Rddf.99

______________________________________________________________________

Snopes is an interesting and often hilarious website .  Certainty worth a visit whenever you get one of those "this is horrible" emails.


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2013)

Andrew Bolt's show on Sunday featured an interview with Scott Morrison.



It gets interesting from about 7 minutes into the show. If what Scott Morrison said (between 7min30sec and 7min40 sec), the former government wasn't only politicking in Australia as one would expect, they were also trying to poison the well in Indonesia.


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2013)

This might be another boat,

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...nga-and-two-merchantmen-north-of-ci-toda.html


----------



## drsmith (17 October 2013)

drsmith said:


> This might be another boat,
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...nga-and-two-merchantmen-north-of-ci-toda.html




An update on the above,



> Shaz reports 60-70 people offloaded from HMAS Warramunga as we speak




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ty-at-christmas-island-boat-people-expec.html


----------



## drsmith (18 October 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday October 18*

3 boats carrying 167 asylum seekers in the past week. 



> The Government has revealed that 73 asylum seekers were immediately flown back to Sri Lanka following an initial assessment on Christmas Island.
> 
> The Operation Sovereign Borders weekly briefing revealed 167 asylum seekers tried to enter Australian waters on three boats in the past week.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-18/asylum-seekers-refugees-manus-island-christmas/5031730

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on one boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: An unknown number on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 167 passengers on 3 boats.


----------



## drsmith (21 October 2013)

In Last Friday's briefing, it's actually 3 boats carrying 173 asylum seekers in the past week but that includes the 79 from Sri Lanka advised but not counted in the previous briefing. The previous operational update is therefore no boats.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/131018transcript_operation-sovereign-borders.asp

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders (one month):* 378 passengers on 8 boats.

Operation Sovereign Borders main site.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

Another boat today, approx. 40 POB.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...loading-via-ribs-at-christmas-island-now.html


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2013)

Another boat ?

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...intercept-near-christmas-island.html#comments


----------



## noco (24 October 2013)

drsmith said:


> Another boat ?
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...intercept-near-christmas-island.html#comments




Geez Doc, don't tell the Labor lefties...they will be all over it.


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2013)

noco said:


> Geez Doc, don't tell the Labor lefties...they will be all over it.



Any Labor lefties true to their cause should have been on the docks watching regardless of the uncivilised nature of the hour.

I suppose it's just more comfortable banging on about how cruel our nation's policies are towards asylum seekers from the comfort of an air conditioned environment while sipping Latte's.


----------



## MrBurns (25 October 2013)

Note the difference - 

Labor = Bumbling stuff ups and talk.

Libs = Action




> Scott Morrison says new Malaysian measures will stop asylum seekers coming by boat
> 
> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison says the Malaysian government has agreed to extra measures that should ultimately stop asylum seekers from reaching Australia by boat.
> 
> ...





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/morrison-says-malaysia-on-board-with-asylum-solution/5046228


----------



## drsmith (25 October 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday October 18*

2 boats carrying 166 asylum seekers in the past week for a total 10 boats carrying 544 since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders on September 18.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

The arrangements with Malaysia as announced today as noted above are a further positive development.


----------



## drsmith (27 October 2013)

Another possible boat, this time off Darwin.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/10/apparently-search-and-rescue-activity-offshore-the-nt.html

Also of interest, the following video offers an insight into the impacts of the current government's policies on the asylum trade from Indonesia.

http://media.theage.com.au/news/world-news/smugglers-offer-alternatives-to-boat-travel-4862651.html


----------



## drsmith (1 November 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday November 1*

In short, no boat arrivals over the past week.



> During the reporting period there were no arrivals. Over the course of the month of October, there were a total of five suspected illegal entry vessels carrying 339 illegal maritime arrivals who were subject to offshore processing or enhanced screening, and none of whom will come to Australia.




A trickle of arrivals are also voluntarily returning to their country of origin.



> For the reporting period 14 illegal maritime arrival transferees were returned to Iran after electing to go home voluntarily, six from Nauru and eight from Manus. Since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders, a total of 67 people have voluntarily returned to their country of origin from offshore processing centres.




The overall briefing itself is quiet lengthy.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

Video link to briefing via ABC,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-...s-no-asylum-seekers-arrived-this-week/5064096


----------



## AAA (2 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> *Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday November 1*
> 
> In short, no boat arrivals over the past week.
> 
> ...




Does anyone know the last occasion of no arrivals in a week. This has been a promising start for the new government.


----------



## drsmith (2 November 2013)

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.

*Total since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

544 passengers on 10 boats.


----------



## drsmith (3 November 2013)

While the current government is having early success with slowing the boats, we still have to digest the legacy costs of the situation the current government inherited, the following of which is the biggest example,



> We now currently have 33,000 illegal arrivals in detention and in the community on bridging visas. As well as a further 2,000 or thereabouts held offshore at Manus Island and Nauru. This is now costing Australia $3 billion every year.




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...and-what-3bn-buys-in-healthcare.html#comments


----------



## DB008 (5 November 2013)

*ASIO-Report-to-Parliament-2012-13*

http://www.asio.gov.au/img/files/ASIO-Report-to-Parliament-2012-13.pdf

Page 3 and 4 are interesting, as is some of the intro...


Bolt did a story on it.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/asio-report-says-there-are-great-dangers-from-radical-islamists/story-fni0ffxg-1226752319068



> In fact, we already have 20 Muslims jailed for terrorism-related offences and ASIO fears more may come: "There has been an increase in Australians travelling overseas to participate in terrorist training or engage in foreign disputes - Syria is the primary destination.






> Add also this danger sign: Of the 18 terrorist groups banned in Australia, 17 are Islamist. Even the exception, the Stalinist PKK, is from the Middle East.






> Given all that, our immigration policies have been incredibly reckless, thanks to politicians more concerned with seeming good than achieving security.
> 
> We have been bringing in more than 10,000 refugees a year from Muslim lands - especially ones in which jihadism is worst. Many have little English and few skills. Not surprisingly, just 9 per cent of Afghan adults find work here even five years after arriving. Yet just last month, the Abbott Government said it would accept another 500 refugees from Syria's war between jihadists and the Assad regime.


----------



## drsmith (7 November 2013)

This one is interesting,



> AN asylum seeker boat has been assisted off the coast of Indonesia after issuing a distress call while making its way to Australia.
> 
> A spokesman for the Indonesian search and rescue agency, BASARNAS, confirmed to AAP that a distress call was received from a vessel in the Sunda Strait earlier on Thursday.




Something here doesn't add up. Sunda Strait is between two Indonesian islands. It doesn't make sense that it would be getting escorted to Xmas island from there by one of our navy vessels.

http://www.news.com.au/world/breaki...fe-off-indonesia/story-e6frfkui-1226755226666


----------



## bellenuit (7 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> This one is interesting,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It may not be. This was in the story you linked to....

_The official said that discussions were underway to organise offloading the asylum seekers in Indonesia, after earlier suggesting they would be escorted to Christmas Island._


----------



## drsmith (7 November 2013)

bellenuit said:


> It may not be. This was in the story you linked to....
> 
> _The official said that discussions were underway to organise offloading the asylum seekers in Indonesia, after earlier suggesting they would be escorted to Christmas Island._



That makes much more sense and another update for Andrew Bolt's blog story in the morning.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ldsun/comments/a_boat_to_test_the_government/

The latest revision also has the boat well outside Sunda Strait.



> A spokesman for the Indonesian search and rescue agency, BASARNAS, said the boat was about 60 nautical miles off the south coast of Java when contact was made with authorities.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...fe-off-indonesia/story-fn3dxix6-1226755226666


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2013)

It seems we have a standoff, 57 nautical miles off Java in Indonesia's search and rescue zone.



> A wooden boat intending to illegally enter Australia with least 50 people on board, called for assistance due to an engine breakdown but on arrival the Australian crew determined that the engine was in good working order so they notified the Indonesians and left.
> 
> Responding to a further distress call showed the engine had been sabotaged and HMAS Ballarat stood by to await Indonesian assistance to return the boat to port.
> 
> ...




http://pickeringpost.com/story/mid-ocean-standoff-fairfax-claims/2281

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-seeker-boat-to-indonesia-20131107-2x4qs.html


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2013)

In this weeks Operation Sovereign Borders update there were no boat arrivals in the past week. 10 Iranians have chosen to return to Iran in this past week and 77 people have chosen to go home from off-shore processing centres since the Operation started. 

The boat intercepted yesterday first asked for rescue just 43 nautical miles from Indonesia, in Indonesian search and rescue territory. Scott Morrison was otherwise very tight lipped on this boat.


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2013)

Some movement with yesterday's group, but not much.



> In the early hours of the morning, the people were transferred from their wooden vessel onto the Ocean Protector.
> 
> An Indonesian government source said: ''The Australian ship is heading slowly towards Indonesia but still no decision has been taken about whether they will be taken to Indonesia, Australia, or direct to Papua New Guinea.''




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...t-refuses-to-give-details-20131108-2x5na.html


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2013)

The standoff continues,



drsmith said:


> Indonesian Legal, Political and Security Affair Minister Djoko Suyanto said through a spokesman that it was reluctant to accept the people given they were asylum seekers.
> 
> "From what I've been told, the boat was fine and they were not in danger. If that's the case, then we reject it,'' the spokesman said.
> 
> "We don't want Indonesia to be a dumping ground, but we don't want Australia to accuse us of not doing anything. We want to respect Australia. At least for the time being we will not accept them.''




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...f-asylum-seekers/story-fni0cx4q-1226755981005



> In a text message, Indonesia's coordinating minister for security and political affairs, Djoko Suyanto, told the ABC that Indonesia has never agreed to such wishes and will not accept returns of asylum seekers.
> 
> In fact it has three times - once last year and twice in September this year - but Indonesia does not want it to continue.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-08/indonesia-says-it-wont-accept-rescued-asylum-seekers/5077974

This is a strange way to conduct diplomacy.


----------



## bellenuit (8 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> The standoff continues,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Since Indonesia's change of attitude seems to be related to the spying incident that I believe happened under Kevin Rudd's reign, can we now twice over thank Kevin for ******* up our asylum policy - once when he became pm and now today as a result of his activities when he was pm.


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2013)

bellenuit said:


> Since Indonesia's change of attitude seems to be related to the spying incident that I believe happened under Kevin Rudd's reign, can we now twice over thank Kevin for ******* up our asylum policy - once when he became pm and now today as a result of his activities when he was pm.



One needs to be a fly on the wall to work out what's going on here. First, BASARNAS say Indonesia won't take them back, then BASARNAS say they will, then today's nonsense on somewhat flimsy excuses.

Perhaps it's Indonesian domestic politics at play and/or a slap in the chops over the spying stuff.

Either way, I don't think it will make much difference in the longer term.


----------



## So_Cynical (8 November 2013)

bellenuit said:


> Since Indonesia's change of attitude seems to be related to the spying incident that I believe happened under Kevin Rudd's reign, can we now twice over thank Kevin for ******* up our asylum policy - once when he became pm and now today as a result of his activities when he was pm.




Your dreaming..the spying has been going on for 4 decades, just minutes after the 5 Aussie journalists were killed in East Timor in 1975, the spy agency's knew about it...listening in on radio traffic.

------------

The Noalition plan of information starvation and denial of activity's now flows on naturally to stand off denial...and that works in with Broadband and climate change denial...these guys are experts at pretending things are not happening.


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> The Noalition plan of information starvation and denial of activity's now flows on naturally to stand off denial...and that works in with Broadband and climate change denial...these guys are experts at pretending things are not happening.



What hasn't been happening is boat arrivals at anywhere near the same rate as under Labor.

The Coalition in my view have been very calm and measured in their response to the nonsense reported from Indonesia over this particular boat.


----------



## IFocus (8 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Your dreaming..the spying has been going on for 4 decades, just minutes after the 5 Aussie journalists were killed in East Timor in 1975, the spy agency's knew about it...listening in on radio traffic.
> 
> ------------
> 
> The Noalition plan of information starvation and denial of activity's now flows on naturally to stand off denial...and that works in with Broadband and climate change denial...these guys are experts at pretending things are not happening.




The whole thing of not telling what's happening is getting to point of ridicule where we find out from the Indonesian government. 

Morrison is a complete joke.

Have they turned back boats....no
Have they bought any old fishing boats....no

So Rudds policy is working then?


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2013)

Kevin Rudd's policies worked a treat.  Over 50,000 arrivals and over 1,000 deaths at sea.

Meanwhile, this media report in relation to the current boat,



> The boat sent out an SOS the previous day when it was just 40km from the coast of Java and the Ballarat urged its crew to turn about and sail back to Indonesia.
> 
> An Indonesian patrol boat arrived on the scene soon afterwards and told the crew and their desperate passengers to keep going towards Christmas Island.
> 
> ...






> News Corp Australia understands that if the matter cannot be resolved quickly then the warship will return to Christmas Island where the asylum seekers would be processed and sent the Manus Island or Nauru.
> 
> "It won't come down to push and shove between the two navy vessels," a source said.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...f-with-indonesia/story-fni0xqrb-1226756080420


----------



## sptrawler (8 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> The whole thing of not telling what's happening is getting to point of ridicule where we find out from the Indonesian government.
> 
> Morrison is a complete joke.
> 
> ...




You are funny.

Nothing like the die hard chardonay socialists, to talk up the after dinner chat.


----------



## sails (9 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> The whole thing of not telling what's happening is getting to point of ridicule where we find out from the Indonesian government.
> 
> Morrison is a complete joke.
> 
> ...




Why do you resort to lies, IF?

Two boats have been returned to Indonesia, people have voluntary returned home. Was there EVER a two week period with no boats under Rudd after he used part of the coalition's off-shore policy just before the election?  Why not give the government credit where it is due?

Do you really think we are so stupid that you can get away with posting such nonsense?


----------



## noco (9 November 2013)

sails said:


> Why do you resort to lies, IF?
> 
> Two boats have been returned to Indonesia, people have voluntary returned home. Was there EVER a two week period with no boats under Rudd after he used part of the coalition's off-shore policy just before the election?  Why not give the government credit where it is due?
> 
> Do you really think we are so stupid that you can get away with posting such nonsense?




Sails, don't you know it would be too difficult for a left wing socialist (commo) to give the Coalition any credit.

If  IF thinks Morrison is a joke, then he would have to rate Gillard and Rudd absolute metal cases.


----------



## IFocus (9 November 2013)

sails said:


> Why do you resort to lies, IF?





I don't.



> Two boats have been returned to Indonesia,





Nope, they were not and wont accuse you of lying.


----------



## sails (9 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Two boat loads of passengers were returned to Indonesia in September


----------



## sails (9 November 2013)

sails said:


> Two boat loads of passengers were returned to Indonesia in September





Looks like at least FOUR boat loads were returned to Indonesia in September.




> The Indonesians are understood to have then refused to take the asylum-seekers back to Indonesia, as happened at least four times in September when Australians went to the rescue of boats in distress in Indonesian waters.





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ple-to-indonesia/story-fn9hm1gu-1226755629123


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (9 November 2013)

This thread is becomong a "he said this, no he didn't, he said that"

My dilemma with this business is that there are two elements causing conflict.

Firstly it is natural and right to offer protection and entry to those fleeing persecution.

Secondly it is natural and right to assume that our PM and Government ensure that Australia has secure borders.

I am conflicted occassionally when the Press and Left beat up a certain case, situation or stance.

Nonetheless, whenever I am conflicted, Australia having secure borders trumps every other argument or situation.

gg


----------



## So_Cynical (9 November 2013)

sails said:


> Looks like at least FOUR boat loads were returned to Indonesia in September.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ple-to-indonesia/story-fn9hm1gu-1226755629123




I'm wondering how its possible to return something that hasn't left, as in returning a boat to Indonesia that is actually in Indonesia?

---------------



			
				www.theaustralian said:
			
		

> A BOATLOAD of asylum seekers at the centre of a standoff between Australia and Indonesia will be taken to Christmas Island.
> 
> While Indonesian authorities "review" Australia's request that the passengers - believed to total more than 50 - be taken to Indonesia, Immigration Minister Scott Morrison ended the stalemate on Saturday.




- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...y-fn3dxiwe-1226756361180#sthash.nghiu6oa.dpuf

Will be interesting to see how the Noaliation try and spin there way out of this one.


----------



## drsmith (9 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Will be interesting to see how the *C*oaliation try and spin there way out of this one.



There is no doubt the government has suffered a setback in relation to this part of its asylum policy management. 

The broader issue though is not one of individual policy components but rather the outcome of the overall policy as a whole and on that score, the early results remain encouraging.

One aspect about this that I find particularly disturbing is the high handed nature of some of Indonesia's political leaders and the fact that this is not questioned as part of the problem within our domestic media. At the end of the day, that boat was rescued by the goodwill or our navy in Indonesia's marine search and rescue zone and our governments expectation was nothing more than we be treated as sovereign equals. Instead, for our goodwill, we got spit in our faces. That might have been understandable for a domestic  government that didn't have an ideological problem with handing our border control to people smugglers, but for one that actually trying to solve the problem, it's a very poor attitude indeed from the Indonesian government.

At least the Abbott government is trying. That in itself is much better than the government that created the problem in the first place and then were only too happy to allow it to worsen to suit their own political end.

My bolds.


----------



## IFocus (9 November 2013)

The Coalition taxi service seems to be functioning well


Abbott government ends asylum seeker stand-off with Indonesia



> TONY Abbott's government capitulated to Indonesia on Friday night, ordering a Customs boat with up to 63 refugees on board to go to Christmas Island.
> 
> An asylum seeker in Indonesia contacted Fairfax Media early on Saturday to say the boat had reached the Australian territory on Saturday morning after immigration minister Scott Morrison failed to convince Indonesia to accept their return.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbo...h-indonesia-20131109-2x85v.html#ixzz2k7c5koId


----------



## drsmith (9 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> The Coalition taxi service seems to be functioning well



If you're hoping that as a result of this, the flow of boats will return to Labor proportions, you're going to be disappointed.


----------



## Whiskers (9 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> If you're hoping that as a result of this, the flow of boats will return to Labor proportions, you're going to be disappointed.




The disappointment is clearly Abbott and Morison's, in that they haven't been able to stop the boats, especially 'turn back' the boats or get into Indonesia to buy the boats before the smugglers could get them.

The flow of boats under the revised Labor policy that no asylum seekers will be settled in Aus and the PNG deal was significant. 

What Abbott has to learn is the lack of wisdom in making 'absolute' promises like stopping the boats without cooperation with Indonesia.

We are yet to see the full ramifications for trade and cooperation in terrorism and other regional security issues as a result of his single minded obsession with a couple of dumb strategies, left over from his old head kicker days, to deal with this problem. 

“It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.” 
― Abraham Harold Maslow​
I'm not anti coalition, I'm actually in favour of most of their policies, including stopping the people smugglers... but I am anti dumb behaviour of Abbott and Morrison in particular on this issue because of the wider ramifications that you either can't see or don't care about.


----------



## sails (9 November 2013)

When did Abbott put a time limit on stopping the boats?  He has exceeded my expectations by slowing them as much as he has and in just a few weeks. He has achieved something labor could not or would not do.

And yet the left are crowing because there has been a set back?  Do you people not care about the security of our country?  Shameful ...


----------



## So_Cynical (9 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> (25th-September-2013) This could be both the making and the downfall of the noalition....for 5 years we heard 3 or 4000 times Tony chant "stop the boats" "stop the boats" "stop the boats" sort of dawned on me today that Tony better stop those boats because there's a hell of an expectation from the right and centre right.
> 
> I mean if he cant deliver 100% or even 95% he's politically a goner....a 1 term wonder, credibility and believability 0, "stop the boats" wasn't a throw away election slogan like Julia's carbon tax blunder, stop the boats was a mantra.




As i stated previously ^ Tony better stop them boats..and i think its fair to say that the electorate that voted him in has an expectation for him to do that strait away, The "stop the boats" mantra was unequivocal, an absolute, a statement of fact.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (9 November 2013)

The ALP/Green Party never once mentioned secure borders in relation to the illegal boats.

They just don't get it.

ALP are more interested in the politics than the misery and insecure borders.

gg


----------



## sails (9 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> As i stated previously ^ Tony better stop them boats..and i think its fair to say that the electorate that voted him in has an expectation for him to do that strait away, The "stop the boats" mantra was unequivocal, an absolute, a statement of fact.




lol - Abbott has considerably slowed the boats in record time.  At least they are actively working on the problem and, of course, there will be setbacks along the way.  That doesn't mean they have failed.  Even under the pacific solution the occasional boat still arrived. 

How you guys can taunt the coalition about this is bizarre when it was your lot who let up to 50,000 in at the expense of the Aussie taxpayer.


----------



## drsmith (9 November 2013)

sails said:


> When did Abbott put a time limit on stopping the boats?  He has exceeded my expectations by slowing them as much as he has and in just a few weeks. He has achieved something labor could not or would not do.



The setback I suspect will mostly be in domestic image and short term. In other words, largely cosmetic.

Judging by reports of the number of boats Indonesia has accepted back after they have set sail, there's obviously only a small number actually leaving Indonesia at the present time.

---------------------------------------------------------

On the issue of timeframe, the Coalition didn't suggest it would stop the boats straight away. That's wishful thinking by those who wish to frame their success or failure in that context.


----------



## sails (9 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> The setback I suspect will mostly be in domestic image and short term. In other words, largely cosmetic.
> 
> Judging by reports of the number of boats Indonesia has accepted back after they have set sail, there's obviously only a small number actually leaving Indonesia at the present time.
> 
> ...




Agree on all points, Drsmith.   

Lefties generally seem quite happy to misrepresent anything they can about the coalition. This is how they carried on before the election and they seem blinded that this cost them the election...lol


----------



## Whiskers (9 November 2013)

sails said:


> When did Abbott put a time limit on stopping the boats?  He has exceeded my expectations by slowing them as much as he has and in just a few weeks. He has achieved something labor could not or would not do.
> 
> And yet the left are crowing because there has been a set back?  Do you people not care about the security of our country?  Shameful ...




Yes... we the moderate non party swing voters DO CARE ABOUT SECURITY and TRADE and TERRORISM and WIDER SECURITY COOPERATION!!!

We get it, you're FANATICAL obsession with literally "turning back" as opposed to some other more reasonable strategy of stopping the boats... BUT AT WHAT COST?

There are smarter ways than the couple of dumb policy slogans he trotted out and Indonesia clearly say they won't cooperate with... and raised the ante with spying complaints.  

*What about the wider implications of widening the rift in Indonesian relations, further damage to trade, terrorism and wider security cooperation?*

You did notice that didn't you!!!


----------



## wayneL (9 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Yes... we the moderate non party swing voters DO CARE ABOUT SECURITY and TRADE and TERRORISM and WIDER SECURITY COOPERATION!!!
> 
> We get it, you're FANATICAL obsession with literally "turning back" as opposed to some other more reasonable strategy of stopping the boats... BUT AT WHAT COST?
> 
> ...




Firstly, you claim to be a National Party boy, now you're a swing voter.

Secondly, a confusion between your and you're.

Thirdly, a superfluous capitalization which serves no actual argumentative purpose.

With reference to earlier posters... ==> +4


----------



## Whiskers (9 November 2013)

wayneL said:


> Firstly, you claim to be a National Party boy, now you're a swing voter.




If you pay closer attention... I always said I was a swing voter, that I don't belong to any party... BUT subscribe more to National party policies.



> Secondly, a confusion between your and you're.




How about a missed coma after "FANATICAL".

But if you are going to knit pick about gramma, punctuation etc, the spell check and auto fill options that sometimes accidently drop in catch one off guard sometimes. Maybe that's still a work in progress so I won't hold that against Joe Blow.  



> Thirdly, a superfluous capitalization which serves no actual argumentative purpose.




Well the idea of capitalisation is to highlight main points... those that you and...



> With reference to earlier posters... ==> +4




are completely ignorant or arrogant about!

WHAT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF CREATING A RIFT IN INDONESIAN RELATIONS?

You can pretend they are not there... but the wider population, businesses that want to trade with Indonesia and our security experts certainly are not pretending there is no rift in relations.


----------



## So_Cynical (9 November 2013)

sails said:


> Agree on all points, Drsmith.
> 
> Lefties generally seem quite happy to misrepresent anything they can about the coalition. This is how they carried on before the election and they seem blinded that this cost them the election...lol




Amazing...please explain how "stop the boats" isn't a misrepresentation of slow the boats over time? amazing also how your expectations seem to have changed from "stop the boats" to "considerably slowed the boats in record time." i doubt the rest of the right wing voters will be as understanding as you.


----------



## sails (9 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> Amazing...please explain how "stop the boats" isn't a misrepresentation of slow the boats over time? amazing also how your expectations seem to have changed from "stop the boats" to "considerably slowed the boats in record time." i doubt the rest of the right wing voters will be as understanding as you.




Abbott has achieved a reduction in boat arrivals in just over 60 days. Gilliard and Rudd wouldn't or couldn't achieve that in 6 years.  For goodness sake - most thinking people have reasonable expectations and will take into consideration the woeful mess labor made of our border security.


----------



## sails (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> ...WHAT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF CREATING A RIFT IN INDONESIAN RELATIONS?
> 
> You can pretend they are not there... but the wider population, businesses that want to trade with Indonesia and our security experts certainly are not pretending there is no rift in relations.





Hmmm... Didn't the spying start under labor? I understand this is not something set up by the new government and is an inherited problem. 

And surely it's not in Australia's best interests when  certain media seem to be undermining the efforts of the government in working with Indonesia?


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

With regard to obligations on rescue at sea, I found the following documentation from the International Maritime Organisation, titled Rescue At Sea.

http://www.imo.org/OurWork/Facilitation/Documents/The IMO -UNHCR Pamphlet on Rescue at Sea.pdf

Within is the following section,



> Guidelines on the Treatment of Persons Rescued at Sea were
> developed in order to provide guidance to governments and to
> shipmasters in implementing these amendments. They contain the
> following provisions:




Under this section is the following,



> The government responsible for the SAR region in which
> survivors were recovered is responsible for providing a place
> of safety or ensuring that such a place of safety is provided.
> (para. 2.5).




That clearly makes it Indonesia's responsibility where an asylum boat is in distress within their SAR region.

It however goes onto say,



> A place of safety is a location where rescue operations are
> considered to terminate, and where:
> the survivors’ safety or life is no longer threatened;
> basic human needs (such as food, shelter and medical needs)
> ...




The final point is the one that muddies the waters. While it is Indonesia's responsibility for search and rescue within their SAR, it's Australia's ultimate responsibility to manage the asylum seekers where that is their final destination.

There however a question of abuse of process with that particular pointwhere the country responsible for SAR is also an active transit country, but one can to some extent at least understand Indonesia's reluctance to act on this front while Labor had the sugar on the table.

In relation to the most recent boat, The Australian has the following washup,



> Australian authorities had responded to a distress call from the wooden boat on Thursday, finding it inside Indonesia's search and rescue zone. But requests to take the passengers to Indonesia were rejected by local authorities, sparking the stand-off.
> 
> “On two recent occasions, Indonesia has agreed to these requests and facilitated an on-water transfer,” Mr Morrison said yesterday, after agreeing that the boat shuold go to Christmas Island.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...donesia-standoff/story-fn9hm1gu-1226756353846





----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

More information is emerging on transfers between Australia and Indonesia,



> Out of six asylum seeker boats rescued by Australian vessels recently, Indonesia declined to receive the last three requests for transfer, which happened between September and November, Agus said.




http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/11/09/ri-oz-maritime-standoff.html


----------



## Whiskers (10 November 2013)

sails said:


> Hmmm... Didn't the spying start under labor? I understand this is not something set up by the new government and is an inherited problem.




You really don't study the issues and read much before you run off half cocked, do you, sails!?

Already answered and explained in response to one of your posts back at #949 on the Abbott thread. 

Yes, spying has always been going on...but without Abbott denying or explaining the allegations made by Indonesia, it seems what they have really taken offence to is some stepping up of operations to secretly find people smugglers and try to seek out boats to buy without Indonesian involvement plus closer collaboration with US intelligence needs  recently. Whether or not it's true, the fact that the Indonesians raise the stakes with such a complaint is proof enough that they are pretty p!ssed off over something and that Abbott is NOT charming them over with 'diplomacy'.

Regardless, Abbott clearly hasn't won the support and cooperation of the Indonesians as he pretends.​


> And surely it's not in Australia's best interests when  certain media seem to be undermining the efforts of the government in working with Indonesia?




Please explain how that works? Are you suggesting that the 'certain media' are responsible for the spying issue or Indonesia not changing their policy that they previously told Rudd and Gillard, that they won't accept boats handed/towed back or turned back by force, or not allow him to snoop around finding old fishing boats to buy? 

You do say working with Indonesia, so that implies some degree of diplomacy, a win win strategy, doesn't it? How's that working out for him?.. a step forward... no, more like two or three steps back with the consequences for at least stalling and probably setting back trade deals and cooperation with terrorism and regional security generally.

Abbott not succeeding with his pre-election strategy, that he clearly did not discuss with Indonesia beforehand and ought to have known they were not going to accept the buy the boats before the smugglers plan and forcibly turning back the boats at sea... was predictable, unless he had some special 'card' to persuade Indonesia. He didn't. I predicted it. Many others predicted it!

I suppose you are reverting back to the lame, biased, even stupid argument that any media not owned by Murdock (such as Fairfax and ABC) is biased. Well as I recall even Murdock and his editors supported Rudd at one time. 

It might also surprise you that there are news sharing arrangements across the media so that regardless of who initially reports the story, the other networks often use the same footage and story, albeit edited and or presented in their own personalised style.

In any case, we are in an extremely instantaneous, mobile and interconnected news and information technology era. He trained and played the media with everyday photo shoots in opposition, but now the same 'tool' is a bad boy villain for what exactly?... his dumb plans not working out and reporting the result. 

There's a very wise saying in the bush... don't feed the wild animals and they will keep their distance. If Abbott wants the media to stay away now... guess what it's too late... he fed the media for too long, trained them to come looking for 'food' for too long to suddenly un-train them now.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Already answered and explained in response to one of your posts back at #949 on the Abbott thread.



A gentle reminder on how Kevin Rudd charms with his diplomacy,


----------



## Whiskers (10 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> With regard to obligations on rescue at sea...
> 
> 




Stepping back and looking through a wider lens... Australia, albeit via Gillard, didn't abide by normal protocol when she suddenly stopped a very substantial food supply to Indonesia about $.5B per year live cattle trade. 

Any wonder they are a bit peeved with Aus and reluctant to cooperate... especially after that insult and bad faith action was followed by the new PM Abbott claiming he was going to run Indonesia as far as people smugglers are concerned. 

The law, protocol and cooperation all goes out the window pretty quickly when you throw a big stone in the neighbours window, like instant suspension of a $.5B per year essential food source and follow up with arrogant claims you will go into Indonesia and do what you like. 

You might also remember one of the main reasons why Australian films are not popular overseas... because the actors come across as too brash and arrogant. There's more than a little clue in there.



drsmith said:


> More information is emerging on transfers between Australia and Indonesia,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/11/09/ri-oz-maritime-standoff.html




As I understand it Indonesia accepted some on 'imminent safety' issues involving rough seas and the condition of the boat. Those that were not in imminent danger they refuse to accept back.

Howard had some, but not complete success forcibly turning back the boats. But a lot has changed since then including the souring of relations as above. 

Now, reading between the lines, Indonesia will likely not allow our ships into their territorial waters and or actively encourage and assist the smugglers probably more than ever to sail out to meet Aus ships, just to retaliate tit for tat while this knee jerk and head kicker foreign relations mentality continues.


----------



## sails (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> You really don't study the issues and read much before you run off half cocked, do you, sails!?...





Rubbish...LOL

I asked one simple question about the spying being already in existence.  A simple yes or no would have been quite sufficient instead of a personal attack on me plus a huge post containing goodness knows what as I didn't bother after your opening line.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Now, reading between the lines, Indonesia will likely not allow our ships into their territorial waters and or actively encourage and assist the smugglers probably more than ever to sail out to meet Aus ships, just to retaliate tit for tat while this knee jerk and head kicker foreign relations mentality continues.



See Kevin Rudd video above.


----------



## Whiskers (10 November 2013)

sails said:


> Rubbish...LOL
> 
> I asked one simple question about the spying being already in existence.  A simple yes or no would have been quite sufficient instead of a personal attack on me plus a huge post containing goodness knows what as I didn't bother after your opening line.




Well, unfortunately the world isn't as simple as you wish it to be.  



drsmith said:


> See Kevin Rudd video above.




For what! It speeds up the discussion no end if you would be more specific in what you wish to highlight.

I probably know more about the psychology of Rudd than you do dr... but what has that got to do with Abbott's poor handling of and widening the rift in Indonesian relations?

Whatever Rudd and Gillard did was before the election and in the past. You can rant on about them as I have at the time, but the point is that damage was already done and Abbott has exasperated the problem, widening the rift with more of the same 'attitude'!


----------



## wayneL (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> are completely ignorant or arrogant about!
> 
> WHAT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF CREATING A RIFT IN INDONESIAN RELATIONS?
> 
> You can pretend they are not there... but the wider population, businesses that want to trade with Indonesia and our security experts certainly are not pretending there is no rift in relations.




It seems that your idea 'relations with Indonesia' means Australia being Indonesia's b1tch.

I for one strongly object to Indonesian vessels, originating from Indonesian waters, intruding on Australian territory illegally, not being able to be sent back from whence they came.

I want relations between Australia and other countries based on natural law and mutual respect, not fear, not dropping our trousers for them every time they threaten trade.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> For what! It speeds up the discussion no end if you would be more specific in what you wish to highlight.



One does not need to read between the lines or have a deep understanding of psychology to understand. It's spelt out mostly clearly.

Keep watching it until you understand.


----------



## sails (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Well, unfortunately the world isn't as simple as you wish it to be.




Thank goodness it's not as complicated as you would like it...


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

wayneL said:


> It seems that your idea 'relations with Indonesia' means Australia being Indonesia's b1tch.
> 
> I for one strongly object to Indonesian vessels, originating from Indonesian waters, intruding on Australian territory illegally, not being able to be sent back from whence they came.
> 
> I want relations between Australia and other countries based on natural law and mutual respect, not fear, not dropping our trousers for them every time they threaten trade.



On that topic, Labor is happy for us to be anyone's b1tch provided it suits their political ends.

The evidence would suggest that not too many boats have been leaving Indonesia recently in any case. This in turn suggests the matter is being largely dealt with before any boats are boarded. A big difference for Indonesia now is that we actually have a government that wants to stop boat arrivals whereas the previous one encouraged them with little regard for the impact on the transit countries. There's also Indonesian domestic politics to consider. 

Upon reflection, I think Scott Morrison was right to back down and work towards agreement on this aspect of asylum policy behind closed doors. It's only early days yet and time needs to be given to see how differences are resolved. The fact that there has been so few boats leaving Indonesia in recent times would indicate a good overall level of cooperation between our two countries on this at least behind closed doors.


----------



## So_Cynical (10 November 2013)

One thing that Rudd and Julia finally got right was to exclude the Indonesian Govt and its agency's totally from the boats issue...any solution that requires cooperation from the Indonesians (turning back the boats) is doomed to fail.

Amazing that Tony doesn't seem to get this, well im sure he's a wake up to it now.


----------



## noco (10 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> One thing that Rudd and Julia finally got right was to exclude the Indonesian Govt and its agency's totally from the boats issue...any solution that requires cooperation from the Indonesians (turning back the boats) is doomed to fail.
> 
> Amazing that Tony doesn't seem to get this, well im sure he's a wake up to it now.





If that Rudd idiot hadn't reversed the Pacific solution in 2008 and allowed 50,000 Muslims in at  a COST TO THE TAX PAYER OF $10 BILLION + we would not be in this situation we are now.

But top it off, the left wing media are not helping the Abbott Government one bit in fact they are trying to make a bad situation worse.

Also there is an election in Indonesia next year and that Marty , what ever hhis name is, the Indo Foreign Minister is after the political votes to make him look like he is doing something. Marty is a socialist and a great supporter of the Labor Party.

Do you get the picture?


----------



## Whiskers (10 November 2013)

wayneL said:


> It seems that your idea 'relations with Indonesia' means Australia being Indonesia's b1tch.




On the contrary... at least no more than us being Britain's "b1tch" in the past or Americas "b1tch" in the name of free trade and security now. 



> I for one strongly object to Indonesian vessels, originating from Indonesian waters, intruding on Australian territory illegally, not being able to be sent back from whence they came.




Well, on the philosophy we agree. You just let your emotions on how best to do it, to cloud your better judgement though!



> I want relations between Australia and other countries based on natural law and mutual respect, not fear, not dropping our trousers for them every time they threaten trade.




Wow, I'd love to see how you apply the same standard to the US. That could be fun!

If you notice the point I made it was Gillard who largely broke that "natural law and mutual respect"... Abbott went one better!  

The better strategy for Abbott would clearly have been to keep his mouth as tightly shut about his dumb strategies before the election, as his office door and response to media questions is now. Then discuss it with Indonesia before he plastered it all over the international press aggravating Indonesia. Ditto with foreign aid. 

If he'd shown more skill in diplomacy and and started off resolving trade and foreign aid issues etc first there would be better mutual cooperation to get into the people smugglers issue.

The first effective measure was to ensure they never get passage to or permanent residency in Aus mainland as per Howard's original and Rudd's last PNG plan. 

It's futile just banging on trying to forcibly 'turn back' boats, when he completely lost sight of the second arm of the mechanism that allows the boats to flow, the people smugglers. Focus more on regional or even international solutions to people smugglers, such as having them classified similar to pirates, to stop the boats. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

My point is regardless of who mined the field, he knew it was mined and only has his own lack of skill and enterprise for insisting on walking into it and getting blown up, rather than thinking outside the square. I know it's a bit hard for some people... but, yes there is a world outside the square.

Think about it... Abbott needs to learn something from Rupert Murdock not just patronise his support. 

Imagine if Rupert had gone off broadcasting how he was going to dismantle companies, strip their assets and on-sell the carcase dressed up as a healthy "b1tch", before he got control of them, he wouldn't be where he is today. Well that would probably be a good thing... and maybe there's an omen there.


----------



## Whiskers (10 November 2013)

noco said:


> If that Rudd idiot hadn't reversed the Pacific solution in 2008 and allowed 50,000 Muslims in at  a COST TO THE TAX PAYER OF $10 BILLION + we would not be in this situation we are now.




You can fuel your emotions no end by staring back... but it does zilch in terms of fixing the problem!

Some of you guys have criticism of everyone, but your idol, to burn... but precious little insight into resolving the problem, apart from blind faith in your idol fixing it! 

If everybody who followed their 'leader' as passionately as some of you guys, followed your party leader with blind faith over the cliff into oblivion... we'd have a pretty small, but no doubt more functional population left. :


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

Don't worry Whiskers, 

You're not alone.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> One thing that Rudd and Julia finally got right was to exclude the Indonesian Govt and its agency's totally from the boats issue...any solution that requires cooperation from the Indonesians (turning back the boats) is doomed to fail.
> 
> Amazing that Tony doesn't seem to get this, well im sure he's a wake up to it now.



They obviously didn't consider that prior to weakening John Howard's border protection laws (Rudd) and doing a deal with the Greens for office (Gillard).

They made Indonesia part of the solution with all the issues therein by re-establishing the problem.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> You can fuel your emotions no end by staring back... but it does zilch in terms of fixing the problem!



Trash the joint and walk away from the wreckage.

We don't even let children get away with that, or at least we shouldn't.


----------



## wayneL (10 November 2013)

I've not seen such intellectual equivocation for yonks.

Reiteration of +4


----------



## So_Cynical (10 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> They made Indonesia part of the solution with all the issues therein by re-establishing the problem.




That's silly talk...mid term Gillard's Malaysia solution was a recognition that the Indonesians were never going to be part of a genuine solution, Noalition never gave anything a chance, disgusting politics on their part, shameful really.

Labor may have thought the Indonesians would help a little at the start but by mid 2009 it was clear that it was foolish, the Noalition on the other hand, 4 years later think that they can do what has never successfully need done before.

Get the Indonesians to cooperate with anything that involves them doing anything constructive.


----------



## MrBurns (10 November 2013)

Boat arrivals down by 70% since the election.

That about sums it up.


----------



## sails (10 November 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Boat arrivals down by 70% since the election.
> 
> That about sums it up.




Yes, they have done so well in just over two months since they were sworn in...


----------



## MrBurns (10 November 2013)

sails said:


> Yes, they have done so well in just over two months since they were sworn in...




Yet the media still try to find negatives, I think it's a left over knee reaction to years of blundering stuff ups from Labor.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

So_Cynical said:


> That's silly talk...mid term Gillard's Malaysia solution was a recognition that the Indonesians were never going to be part of a genuine solution, Noalition never gave anything a chance, disgusting politics on their part, shameful really.
> 
> Labor may have thought the Indonesians would help a little at the start but by mid 2009 it was clear that it was foolish, the Noalition on the other hand, 4 years later think that they can do what has never successfully need done before.
> 
> Get the Indonesians to cooperate with anything that involves them doing anything constructive.



Everyone else's fault except Labor's.

That's why they'll be in opposition for a very long time. They believe their own BS. Even Julia Gillard thinks she can dish out lectures on border protection after her record,



> "As the current government is already discovering, this is a policy area that defies the easy certainties of sloganeering."




That takes the cake.

http://www.news.com.au/national/fai...s-prime-minister/story-fncynjr2-1226756843269


----------



## IFocus (10 November 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Boat arrivals down by 70% since the election.
> 
> That about sums it up.




Yep Rudds PNG policy working LOL.......wait for it.....noooooooo

- - - Updated - - -

Hows the leaky boat buying program going?

- - - Updated - - -

Prime Minister Tony Abbott backs down in asylum seeker stand-off with Indonesia



> The Abbott government has blinked in its asylum seeker stand-off with Indonesia, ordering a Customs boat with up to 63 asylum seekers on board to Christmas Island, throwing its boats policy into disarray.
> 
> The arrival will be seen as a loss of face for the Coalition, which vowed before the election that Australian authorities would not act as a taxi service for refugees. It may also encourage other people smuggling syndicates to try their hand.
> 
> Indonesia had refused to take the asylum seekers whose boat had got into trouble off the coast of Java, raising question about the government's turn back the boats policy.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/prime-minister-tony-abbott-backs-down-in-asylum-seeker-standoff-with-indonesia-20131109-2x8n8.html#ixzz2kF2g7luD


----------



## MrBurns (10 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Yep Rudds PNG policy working LOL.......wait for it.....noooooooo
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> Hows the leaky boat buying program going?
> ...




Nothing Rudd did worked well except getting rid of Gillard and then himself  

Yes Tony is saving the nation much to the ire of the socialists and their dopey supporters.

The boat buy back was an option, how's the pink batts thingy going ? 
Oh yes the relatives of the dead tradesmen are looking forward to the results of the enquiry, if they can get Gillard to co operate.

When one looks back at the Gillard Rudd era it's a bloody miracle we got through it at all.


----------



## drsmith (10 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Yep Rudds PNG policy working LOL.......wait for it.....noooooooo



If Kevin Rudd's quick election solution is working so well in isolation, why did Labor wait so long to implement such a solution ?

Why did Labor wait after the arrivals first resumed after Kevin Rudd dismantled the Howard government's policies ?

Why did labor wait under Julia Gillard as the arrival rate grew and grew ?

Why did Labor wait for over 50,000 arrivals and over 1,000 deaths at sea to act ? 

The answer is simple.

Labor's heart is not in solving the problem it created. The huge cost and loss of live is nothing to this morally bankrupt party.

Kevin Rudd belated action was more of an election stunt than it was anything else. Even the funding to support it ran out post January 2014.


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2013)

Labor, for all its bluster over the latest boat actually tried themselves to return them to Indonesia in a similar fashion.

It's really quiet interesting what the Indonesians are now revealing,



> .
> Mr Agus gave further details of the requests that had been rejected and said there had been similar examples under both Labor and Liberal governments. ‘‘It’s not gone into the media, that’s why the recent incident looks like it is the first time. In fact, Indonesia has made similar decisions more than three times ... under the current government and the previous government, in 2012 and 2013,’’ he said.
> 
> ‘‘The boats were fine. In some of those incidents they activated the distress alert and when the Australian ships were nearing them they deliberately broke the engines so that the Australian ships could take them,’’ Mr Agus said.
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/boat-policy-founders-20131110-2xa6x.html


----------



## IFocus (11 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Labor, for all its bluster over the latest boat actually tried themselves to return them to Indonesia in a similar fashion.
> 
> It's really quiet interesting what the Indonesians are now revealing,
> 
> ...





Of course Labor tried to return asylum seekers they just didn't run the spin of turn back the boats crap, if the Indos say no it means no.

Two boat loads rejected and counting


----------



## sails (11 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Of course Labor tried to return asylum seekers they just didn't run the spin of turn back the boats crap, if the Indos say no it means no.
> 
> Two boat loads rejected and counting




Four boatloads taken back by Indonesia in the last few weeks... and counting...


----------



## noco (11 November 2013)

sails said:


> Four boatloads taken back by Indonesia in the last few weeks... and counting...




What beats the hell out of me is why our navy is entering Indonesian waters to asisst these boats when they send out a distress call just 40 Nautical miles from Java.

Why the hell doesn't the navy relay the call to Indonesain authorities....."HA Marty, you have a boat in trouble 40 miles south of Java....you better come and get them because we don't want to infringe on your sovereignity"

And the biased stupid left wing ABC this morning states the Government's policy is in tatters....even Kochie on Channel 7 made a beat up of.

These people will say and do anything to discredit the Abbott Goverment......Never heard them say much about the three boats per day arriving under Rudd.

What a load of BS.


----------



## sails (11 November 2013)

noco said:


> What beats the hell out of me is why our navy is entering Indonesian waters to asisst these boats when they send out a distress call just 40 Nautical miles from Java.
> 
> Why the hell doesn't the navy relay the call to Indonesain authorities....."HA Marty, you have a boat in trouble 40 miles south of Java....you better come and get them because we don't want to infringe on your sovereignity"
> 
> ...




Noco, I may be wrong but my understanding is that, under international maritime law, the ship that is closest to a vessel in trouble is required to assist.  I also understand that our navy is patrolling the Indonesian border in an effort to prevent boats getting through to Australia.  If so, that probably puts our Navy at close proximity to AS boats being sabotaged.  Perhaps the boats deliberately sabotage close to one of our Navy ships and/or perhaps the Indonesian Navy deliberately have their ships well away so that by law Australian ships are required to help.

It seems this last dispute was over the safety of the boat.  Indonesia decided the passengers were not in danger so they refused to take them. Obviously engine failure does not put passengers in danger according to Indonesia and perhaps the Navy should have refused to assist on the basis they were not in danger.  Indonesian Navy would have had time to assist them.  

Maybe next time the Navy should wait until the passengers are in the water so Indonesia has to take them under international law or international law will have to be more specific to prevent people from drowning before they are considered in danger.


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Of course Labor tried to return asylum seekers they just didn't run the spin of turn back the boats crap, if the Indos say no it means no.
> 
> Two boat loads rejected and counting



To admit to attempting to return asylum seekers to Indonesia would have been in direct contradiction to the ideology of Labor and their Green partners in government. It's also not up to Indonesia to determine our migration policy.

Strictly speaking, they're not boat turn backs but it does again demonstrate Labor's hypocrisy for criticising the government on the information they keep confidential while doing the same themselves in government.

On the topic of numbers, the conversation in this thread would benefit greatly if you refrained from comment at least until the arrival numbers under the Coalition reached those that occurred under Labor given your strident partisan views on this issue.


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2013)

Perhaps what has to be worked out now is the terms under which we enter Indonesia's SAR zone.



> Mr Morrison says the government is succeeding in stopping the boats, but the situation with rescues and returns is "very frustrating".
> 
> "There's no real rhyme or reason to it necessarily," Mr Morrison told Fairfax Radio on Monday. "I think this last instance became very problematic because it became very public."
> 
> Mr Morrison says he had given the Indonesian government an undertaking that when such incidents occurred "we would do it directly and we would do it discretely".




http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=923385


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2013)

Tony Abbott has now weighed in on rescues in Indonesia's SAR zone,



> Prime Minister Tony Abbott has suggested that Indonesia had an obligation to accept the asylum seekers.
> 
> "These people were in a search and rescue situation in the Indonesian search and rescue zone," he said.
> 
> ...




There are also reports of another two boats intercepted over the weekend,



> Thewest.com.au understands that two boats - believed to be carrying scores of people - were picked up by border protection authorities over the weekend. Preparations are being made on Christmas Island to receive the two groups.




http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/19770026/more-boats-arrive-amid-indon-stand-off/

According to Shaz (on Xmas Island), one is currently being unloaded and another two are on the way.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...eporting-the-arrival-of-another-boatload.html


----------



## Whiskers (11 November 2013)

noco said:


> What beats the hell out of me is why our navy is entering Indonesian waters to asisst these boats when they send out a distress call just 40 Nautical miles from Java.




Good question.

The answer is in the futility of the policy of trying to turn back the boats WITHOUT agreement with Indonesia. Such agreement has never been there since Howard, Rudd and Gillard... Abbott just insisted in an effort in futility. 

You can only push **** up hill so far before it all slops back in your face.



> Why the hell doesn't the navy relay the call to Indonesain authorities....."HA Marty, you have a boat in trouble 40 miles south of Java....you better come and get them because we don't want to infringe on your sovereignity"




I think you'll  find they tried!.. but the Indo's aren't as silly as Abbott and Morrison hoped.



> And the biased stupid left wing ABC this morning states the Government's policy is in tatters....even Kochie on Channel 7 made a beat up of.
> 
> These people will say and do anything to discredit the Abbott Goverment......Never heard them say much about the three boats per day arriving under Rudd.




Wow... so much for freedom of the press, democracy... and, well if Abbott and Morrison were as smart as they pretended they wouldn't do dumb things to get criticized for, would they!



sails said:


> Noco, I may be wrong but my understanding is that, under international maritime law, the ship that is closest to a vessel in trouble is required to assist.  I also understand that our navy is patrolling the Indonesian border in an effort to prevent boats getting through to Australia.  If so, that probably puts our Navy at close proximity to AS boats being sabotaged.  Perhaps the boats deliberately sabotage close to one of our Navy ships and/or perhaps the Indonesian Navy deliberately have their ships well away so that by law Australian ships are required to help.
> 
> It seems this last dispute was over the safety of the boat.  Indonesia decided the passengers were not in danger so they refused to take them. Obviously engine failure does not put passengers in danger according to Indonesia and perhaps the Navy should have refused to assist on the basis they were not in danger.  Indonesian Navy would have had time to assist them.
> 
> Maybe next time the Navy should wait until the passengers are in the water so Indonesia has to take them under international law or international law will have to be more specific to prevent people from drowning before they are considered in danger.




Gee sails... you have almost got it worked out!

All you need to see now is that the more boats we put up there closer to Indonesia, the easier target they are for people smugglers to send more people too in leakier boats for us to rescue.

When the futility of this tactic of trying to block the back, well it's now become a front door... eventually sinks in, they might reflect on another strategy to target the smugglers thereby eliminating all this drama and expense at sea.


----------



## Whiskers (11 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Tony Abbott has now weighed in on rescues in Indonesia's SAR zone,




So much for the veil of media silence and secrecy so as not to affect operational matters! 

Now starts the 'spin', the propaganda, the appeal to ethics and morality   to try to explain why this dumb policy didn't work.


----------



## trainspotter (11 November 2013)

It would appear Indonesia is being recalcitrant on it's SOLAS Convention duties?

*SOLAS Convention *

On receiving information that persons are in distress at sea, the master of a ship, which is in a position to provide assistance, must proceed with all speed to their assistance. 

This obligation applies regardless of the nationality or status of such persons or the circumstances in which they are found. 

Where assistance has been provided to persons in distress in a state’s SRR (search and rescue region), *that state has primary responsibility to ensure that coordination and cooperation occurs between governments*, so that survivors are disembarked from the assisting ship and delivered to a place of safety. 

As a matter of practice ‘a place of safety’ could be the nearest convenient port. This will not necessarily be a port in the territory of the state in whose SRR an incident occurs, nor in the territory of the state of the vessel rendering assistance.

Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono was heard to say "Sing ken ken, mereka semua akan segera makanan ikan" as he dove into his second helping of babi guling.


----------



## sails (11 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> So much for the veil of media silence and secrecy so as not to affect operational matters!
> 
> Now starts the 'spin', the propaganda, the appeal to ethics and morality   to try to explain why this dumb policy didn't work.




The real dumb policy was Rudd opening up the borders to all and sundry.  If he had kept the working system handed to him by the coalition Australia would not have this problem now.

Pretty rude to call the efforts of the coalition dumb policy when they at least are actively trying to fix the awful mess left by labor.


----------



## Whiskers (11 November 2013)

TS, it seems the short answer there, is the Asylum seekers want to come to Aus, Indonesia wants them to go to Aus... so long as we get up there right in their face with our navy boats, where we want to take them after we rescue them is of little consequence as the wishes of the rescued (to seek asylum in Aus) is arguably the overriding issue.

It seems to me this has just encouraged them to head straight for or 'hail' the nearest Aus navy vessel to come and pick them up. 

The simple solution is to not have our boats anywhere near Indonesia so they have to prepare for a longer voyage in more seaworthy boats and thereby compel Indonesia to rescue them in close proximity to Indonesia when they send a distress call 'hail' for one of our boats. If our boats are not there they cannot expect us to rescue them.

What they might consider is something like shooting across the bows when the cross the border like they do illegal fishing boats... but even then we don't persue of fire directly on their boat very often when they don't stop.

In any case we'd still have to bring them back to Aus.  

The boats are not the problem... the smugglers and the product the sell are what matters. Howard took automatic residency away with the pacific solution, Rudd reluctantly reinstated a similar PNG deal. That slowed the flow a bit, the ones dead set on Aus. But there are still some who see PNG or Naru as an indirect route to Aus, NZ or somewhere else over time.

Short of cooperation with Indonesian authorities or going over their head with something from the UN like tying smugglers to piracy typr laws... that's the best he'll do for now.


----------



## Whiskers (11 November 2013)

sails said:


> The real dumb policy was Rudd opening up the borders to all and sundry.  If he had kept the working system handed to him by the coalition Australia would not have this problem now.




Yes that was dumb.

There were many influences in Labor policy, a compromise of factional demands, but one good thing that can be said for Rudd is he was prepared to change this policy in the face of overwhelming public opposition. That kept him in favour of enough to still be a potential force in Labor and the voting public.

The same could be said of Abbott, some policies are just too far to one faction, the far right, or too dumb to be effective.



> Pretty rude to call the efforts of the coalition dumb policy when they at least are actively trying to fix the awful mess left by labor.




Dumb has nothing to do with 'intent', good, bad or otherwise. 

Dumb is simply doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.


----------



## trainspotter (11 November 2013)

> "Sing ken ken, mereka semua akan segera makanan ikan"




Roughly translates to "Don't worry about it, they will all soon be fish food" ... in other words Indonesia is of the uncaring variety in this debacle. 

It would appear that Indonesian "assets" are in the North trying to STOP the ocean going vessels carrying asylum seekers coming INTO Indonesia whilst Australian "assets" are in the South trying to STOP then coming into Australia.



> It is understood the high tempo of disruptions is in part the result of a request by Kevin Rudd, who after reclaiming the Labor leadership in June petitioned Dr Yudhoyono to increase law enforcement efforts against the smugglers. Indonesia's ocean-faring boats, the ones capable of mounting rescues in high seas, are deployed to the country's north for strategic reasons, meaning Jakarta struggles to mount rescues within its southern search-and-rescue zones.
> 
> Its civil maritime assets are ill-equipped to operate far from shore, effectively leaving Australia responsible for co-ordinating, or even conducting, rescues that occur between Indonesia and Christmas Island.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...eekers-returned/story-fn9hm1gu-1226739253852#

My contacts in Batam advise me that the Indonesian "assets" are not doing their job very well


----------



## MrBurns (11 November 2013)

An emergency evacuation from the Philippines would seem more important now than pandering to people who pay thousands to sneak in here.


----------



## IFocus (11 November 2013)

What a joke Indos acting like the Coalition, there is am election looming, Morrison says we need to be discrete ............like he was in opposition?




> Mr Morrison says the government is succeeding in stopping the boats, but the situation with rescues and returns is "very frustrating".
> 
> "There's no real rhyme or reason to it necessarily," Mr Morrison told Fairfax Radio on Monday. "I think this last instance became very problematic because it became very public."
> 
> Mr Morrison says he had given the Indonesian government an undertaking that when such incidents occurred "we would do it directly and we would do it discretely".


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> So much for the veil of media silence and secrecy so as not to affect operational matters!
> 
> Now starts the 'spin', the propaganda, the appeal to ethics and morality   to try to explain why this dumb policy didn't work.



Transferring rescued asylum seekers from our navy ships strictly speaking is not turning back the boats as the Coalition described it.

In terms of returning the asylum seekers to Indonesia, the effect if obviously the same but that's what Labor in government also tried to do.


----------



## drsmith (11 November 2013)

To some extent, this point of view from Indonesia is understandable,



> A senior advisor to the Indonesian government says the country should not accept asylum seekers rescued by Australia as they would be a "social burden" and do not want to return there.




They weren't the one's who created the problem in the first place. That being said, they also have to realise that preventing their arrival in Australia is a critical element of solving the problem. Perhaps reassurance, not only from the new government but from a nation as a whole is an important factor in convincing them we want to bring the asylum seeker trade to an end.  

Labor and the media have a role to play here.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-...ack-asylum-seekers-indonesian-advisor/5084294



IFocus said:


> What a joke Indos acting like the Coalition, there is am election looming, Morrison says we need to be discrete ............like he was in opposition?



Any reasonable person would be utterly ashamed of defending Labor's record relative to the Coalition in this policy area as you have given the results of Labor's ideological folly and the resultant mess it has left the new Coalition government to clean up.


----------



## Julia (11 November 2013)

MrBurns said:


> An emergency evacuation from the Philippines would seem more important now than pandering to people who pay thousands to sneak in here.



+1.   The absolute devastation and helplessness of the people affected by this typhoon is what we should be setting out to assist.  They have no electricity, no food and no water.  The initial high death toll will be but a fraction of what will result from hunger and disease.  Aid agencies always do their best, but their efforts are puny in the face of the dreadful reality.


----------



## MrBurns (11 November 2013)

Julia said:


> +1.   The absolute devastation and helplessness of the people affected by this typhoon is what we should be setting out to assist.  They have no electricity, no food and no water.  The initial high death toll will be but a fraction of what will result from hunger and disease.  Aid agencies always do their best, but their efforts are puny in the face of the dreadful reality.




You're right Julia, we should be airlifting there people out , the families the children , it's urgent and we could accommodate a lot of them here in facilities that at least feed and clothe them until it's safe for them to return home.


----------



## AAA (12 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Any reasonable person would be utterly ashamed of defending Labor's record relative to the Coalition in this policy area as you have given the results of Labor's ideological folly and the resultant mess it has left the new Coalition government to clean up.




Yep. You would think this would be a subject Labor would like to steer clear of. They took a policy that was working, dismantled it resulting in hundreds of people dying and billions of dollars wasted.


----------



## drsmith (12 November 2013)

Interesting piece in today's Australian,



> As the government continued to fend off criticism it had botched the relationship with Jakarta following a high-seas stand-off over the weekend, The Australian has been told tensions with Jakarta have not had any impact on co-operative law-enforcement measures between the countries.
> 
> It is understood that, since September, 1151 asylum-seekers have been prevented from leaving Indonesia, Malaysia or Sri Lanka on 27 boats - almost double the 600-odd to arrive since the government began Operation Sovereign Borders on September 18.




The number estimated from yesterday's arrivals at Xmas Island is about 40. With about 60 from the 'standoff group' that arrived over the weekend, that makes about 100 so far for this reporting period.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-afp-stop-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226757726065


----------



## bellenuit (12 November 2013)

I'm hope Abbott does not entertaining the idea of doing a swap with Indonesia of people rescued in Indonesian waters by Australia for those refugees already residing in Indonesia. This would be too easy to abuse by Indonesia and would encourage them to facilitate asylum seekers (or even paid "volunteers") leaving in leaky boats, getting Australia to rescue them and then being able to send the equivalent amount of refugees from Indonesian camps in exchange for taking back those rescued at sea.


----------



## noco (12 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Interesting piece in today's Australian,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doc, I hope to hell Abbott does not fall for this Indonesian people swap deal.

If he does the Indons will open the flood gates and we will be back to square one. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-scott-morrison/story-fn9hm1gu-1226758090955


----------



## Whiskers (12 November 2013)

bellenuit said:


> I'm hope Abbott does not entertaining the idea of doing a swap with Indonesia of people rescued in Indonesian waters by Australia for those refugees already residing in Indonesia. This would be too easy to abuse by Indonesia and would encourage them to facilitate asylum seekers (or even paid "volunteers") leaving in leaky boats, getting Australia to rescue them and then being able to send the equivalent amount of refugees from Indonesian camps in exchange for taking back those rescued at sea.




Yeah, he's done some dumb things trying to deal with this issue, but I'm pretty confident he won't buy into any swap deal. 

I suspect he's realised he has to humour them along a bit to keep dialogue going, since we are pretty low down on Indonesia's foreign affairs radar. Not sure he can gain much from it, but it's certainly better than standing on a soap box over here and proclaiming how he's going to go over there and do this, that and the other.


----------



## drsmith (12 November 2013)

noco said:


> Doc, I hope to hell Abbott does not fall for this Indonesian people swap deal.
> 
> If he does the Indons will open the flood gates and we will be back to square one.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-scott-morrison/story-fn9hm1gu-1226758090955



Wishful thinking on the part of Indonesia I suspect. I don't think they will.

Scott Morrison made that pretty clear today.



> In response Immigration Minister Scott Morrison released a statement saying the Government "will continue to pursue all areas of possible cooperation" with Indonesia, but he stated clearly that "the Australian government is not engaged in people swaps".




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-12/abbott-says-no-deal-with-indonesia-on-asylum-seekers/5086594

The problem with a people swap is that it gives Indonesia a direct incentive to keep them coming.

It's clear though that something is being worked out behind the scenes and the harder public line from Tony Abbott is I would suspect part of that process.


----------



## drsmith (13 November 2013)

A boat reported as intercepted on its way to Darwin on Monday night with 19 on board.

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2013/11/12/327295_ntnews.html

Meanwhile, it seems the messages from Indonesia are starting to become mixed,



> When asked by The Australian yesterday if negotiations with Jakarta included the prospect of Australia taking back those in Indonesian detention centres, Dr Anwar, an adviser to Indonesian Vice President Boediono, confirmed the proposal had been faxed through from the Australian embassy.
> 
> "The Australian government has put this proposal to Indonesia," she said. "I think Australia probably could afford to be much more generous with asylum-seekers . . . Australia is a wealthy country.
> 
> "Djoko Suyanto, Indonesia's Co-ordinating Minister for Politics Security and Law, responsible for asylum-seeker issues, yesterday strongly denied his government was discussing an exchange arrangement with Australia.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-for-tat-erupts/story-fn9hm1gu-1226758538129


----------



## drsmith (13 November 2013)

On that alleged fax,



> But Ms Anwar said the proposal had come from the Australian embassy in Jakarta via a fax written in Bahasa, the Indonesian language.
> 
> ''It was a proposal put to Indonesia by Australia and Indonesia hasn't deliberated on it … we still have to study this,'' she said.
> 
> It had been ''faxed to the Indonesia government'' by the embassy, she said, though she would not comment on whether it constituted a ''people swap'' deal.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...dicts-abbott-on-boat-deal-20131112-2xem5.html

If it hasn't been deliberated on by Indonesia, then why did Dewi go public with the suggestion on Monday ?



> The revelations came as Indonesian government adviser Dewi Fortuna Anwar said talks were being held with the Abbott government on a people-swap deal similar to the former Labor government's proposed Malaysia deal. Ms Anwar said under the deal, asylum-seekers intercepted by Australian authorities could be sent to Indonesia in exchange for genuine refugees.
> 
> "If Indonesia were to take them, the costs of the burdens (asylum-seekers) would be borne by Australia," she told the ABC."
> 
> At the same time, Australia will take the same number of people that are already sitting in detention centres in Indonesia."




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-afp-stop-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226757726065


----------



## trainspotter (13 November 2013)

Labor is calling on Morris to go public on the latest boat incident calling it "In the public's interest" but the Indo government has requested a cone of silence on the whole matter. Typical muck raking socialist card carrying communism Labor politics at it's best.



> The federal opposition will pressure Immigration Minister Scott Morrison to confirm whether or not an asylum seeker vessel has landed in Darwin undetected.
> 
> The government has so far remained tight-lipped on reports a boat carrying Somali refugees reached Australia's northern coastline on Monday.
> 
> ...




http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...morrison-at-question-time-20131113-2xf7x.html


----------



## overhang (13 November 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Labor is calling on Morris to go public on the latest boat incident calling it "In the public's interest" but the Indo government has requested a cone of silence on the whole matter. *Typical muck raking socialist card carrying communism Labor politics at it's best*.
> 
> 
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...morrison-at-question-time-20131113-2xf7x.html




Yup anything that doesn't support totalitarianism must have a socialist communist agenda


----------



## trainspotter (13 November 2013)

overhang said:


> Yup anything that doesn't support totalitarianism must have a socialist communist agenda




So it's in the public interest when the Indonesian government clearly said to Tony "Tenang ... tidak media dan kita akan ganti orang" and now Labor want it telegraphed throughout the region for everyone to hear?


----------



## Whiskers (13 November 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Labor is calling on Morris to go public on the latest boat incident calling it "In the public's interest" but the Indo government has requested a cone of silence on the whole matter. Typical muck raking socialist card carrying communism Labor politics at it's best.
> 
> 
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...morrison-at-question-time-20131113-2xf7x.html




What is in Australia's national interest is knowing whether the governments policies (well Abbott & Morrison's anyway) are working and not opening up holes elsewhere while they are obsessed with  on with some of their dumb tactics. 

One of the consequences I warned off earlier was a change of strategy by the smugglers to get around the navy intercept and turn or tow back policy was for them to go smaller and sneakier and go straight for the Aus mainland like they did in the early days. 

That's obviously a much bigger risk of bringing in exotic pests and diseases that would threaten our agricultural exports and overload our health system with unforseen outbreaks of disease... not to mention criminals and terrorists.

If boats have made it too the mainland, it's obviously a double whammy... found guilty of being obsessed with a dumb head on tactic that was never going to work and leaving the flank exposed in the meantime.

When you start looking at these issues from the national best interest test perspective rather than just a political party's best interest... you might see the relevance and significance.

There is no point in trying to argue secrecy to hinder the smugglers... they have radio and phone communication and knew before the Abbott and Morison did whether it was successful or not and leak the info to the Indo press to confirm and keep their business going.


----------



## trainspotter (13 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> What is in Australia's national interest is knowing whether the governments policies (well Abbott & Morrison's anyway) are working and not opening up holes elsewhere while they are obsessed with  on with some of their dumb tactics.
> 
> One of the consequences I warned off earlier was a change of strategy by the smugglers to get around the navy intercept and turn or tow back policy was for them to go smaller and sneakier and go straight for the Aus mainland like they did in the early days.
> 
> ...




Put the crack pipe down Whiskers it has effected your comprehension abilities. 

Indonesia asked Australia to keep a low profile in the media on the asylum seekers as they are supposed to be guarding their borders to the North stopping immigrants from entering into Indonesia. The Indonesians are all about respect and do not like being shown up, especially in the media. Think Schapelle Corby incident. If she kept her head down and obeyed their (unwritten) laws she would not have received as much bird time as she did.

When was the last time you were in Indonesia Whiskers? I think it might be in the national best interest for you to visit there ... very soon in fact.

P.S. "Tenang ... tidak media dan kita akan ganti orang" translates to "Quiet, no media involved as we swap people"


----------



## Whiskers (13 November 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Indonesia asked Australia to keep a low profile in the media on the asylum seekers




The media is the media wherever they are and there is always an element that won't play by the patronising or domineering hand of the government. 

Even second and third string government officials have managed to get hold of information and leak it to the press on some issues such as the leaked foreign affairs minutes earlier and the current asylum seeker swap negotiations, despite officials wanting to keep it under wraps. Mind you the Indos were happy to go public with the spying issue despite Aus no doubt preferring they kept that out of the media. 



> The Indonesians are all about respect and do not like being shown up, especially in the media




The more pertinent point here is that POLITICIANS everywhere do not like being shown up in the media.

That's the futility of dumb policies and expecting they can keep them out of the media in this day and age.

If you think Abbott and Indo really believes "Quiet, no media involved *as we swap people*" you are the one smoking too much crack.

That would come back to bite Abbott like a fr!gg!n great white the size of a hump back wale.


----------



## Whiskers (13 November 2013)

TS, more news that puts a lie or at least exposes the diabolical fallacy of your assertion that "Indonesia asked Australia to keep a low profile in the media on the asylum seekers" as a matter of pride. 

Australia attempted to turn back asylum seeker boat: Indonesian official
By Indonesia correspondent George Roberts, staff
Updated 12 minutes ago 

Indonesia's rescue agency Basarnas says Australian authorities attempted to take an asylum seeker boat back to Indonesia last week, directly contradicting the Australian Government's version of events...

The agency's head of evaluations, Yopi Haryadi, says the boat was intercepted by Australian authorities 107 nautical miles from Indonesia, or about half way to Christmas Island.

It was then taken by Australian authorities to a location about 58 nautical miles off the coast as Australia attempted to get Indonesia to accept its return...

Asylum boat sinks off coast of Java

The diplomatic rift between the two countries appeared to widen as Basarnas also confirmed the sinking of another asylum seeker boat south-west of Java.

Agency spokesman Hernanto says local fishermen have rescued five children, but there were about 50 people on board the vessel.

Basarnas has also indicated a change in policy in direct response to the Australian Government's attempt to return asylum seekers. 

Mr Haryadi says the country's coordinating ministry of politics, law and security has taken control of decisions around whether Australian Customs and Navy ships can enter Indonesian territory.

It is aimed at stopping Australia returning asylum seekers.

The minister responsible, Djoko Suyanto, says Indonesia has never agreed to Australia's wishes and that will not change.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-...-disputes-morrison27s-asylum-seeker-b/5089706​
Well, one good thing to come out of this widening rift would be Indo not allowing Aus boats in their waters. That would keep them closer to home and hopefully able to pay more attention to asylum boats sneaking around behind them directly to the mainland.


----------



## IFocus (13 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> > Labor and the media have a role to play here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





So Rudd's PNG policy is working then as its not Abbotts?


----------



## noco (13 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> TS, more news that puts a lie or at least exposes the diabolical fallacy of your assertion that "Indonesia asked Australia to keep a low profile in the media on the asylum seekers" as a matter of pride.
> 
> Australia attempted to turn back asylum seeker boat: Indonesian official
> By Indonesia correspondent George Roberts, staff
> ...




It is so good to see you taking an interest in border protection Whiskers but where were you prior to September 7?

You were no where to be seen or heard.


----------



## sails (13 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> So Rudd's PNG policy is working then as its not Abbotts?





You know as well as the rest of us, IF, that Rudd did not invent offshore processing.  He was the one who closed it down and did nothing about it until he copied part of the coalition's policy just before the election. 

And yet you continue to peddle your silly theory that offshore processing was Rudd's policy...


----------



## drsmith (13 November 2013)

> *Basarnas's head of evaluations, Yopi Haryadi, says the boat was intercepted by Australian authorities 107 nautical miles from Indonesia, or about half way to Christmas Island.*
> 
> It was then taken by Australian authorities to a location about 58 nautical miles off the coast as Australia attempted to get Indonesia to accept its return.
> 
> ...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-...-disputes-morrison27s-asylum-seeker-b/5089706

That's not what Indonesia's search and rescue agency was saying last week,



> Indonesian authorities have confirmed a distress call was received from a boat, carrying about 56 people, which had reported engine trouble in the early hours of Thursday morning.
> 
> *A spokesman for the Indonesian search and rescue agency, BASARNAS, said the boat was about 60 nautical miles off the south coast of Java when contact was made with authorities.*
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...fe-off-indonesia/story-fn3dxix6-1226755226666



> Adi Fachroni Azis, the deputy officer in charge at Indonesian search and rescue agency Basarnas, confirmed that Australia had originally made the call to return the passengers to Indonesia.
> 
> *Mr Adi said the Australian Rescue Coordination Centre had notified the Indonesians of a distress call from a wooden asylum seeker boat about 57 nautical miles south of Indonesia about 9.30am AEDT on Thursday morning.*
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-seeker-boat-to-indonesia-20131107-2x4qs.html

My bolds.


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> One of the consequences I warned off earlier was a change of strategy by the smugglers to get around the navy intercept and turn or tow back policy was for them to go smaller and sneakier and go straight for the Aus mainland like they did in the early days.
> 
> That's obviously a much bigger risk of bringing in exotic pests and diseases that would threaten our agricultural exports and overload our health system with unforseen outbreaks of disease... not to mention criminals and terrorists.
> 
> ...



You argue from the perspective of trying to manage boat arrivals, not prevent them. 

If they are prevented, then crazy personal decisions such as resisting rescue from a floundering boat will be avoided.



> Basarnas would mount an operation to evacuate the remaining people on the boat, which still had power but had lost steering, Mr Fery said.
> 
> A spokesman had earlier said that the rescue effort would be abandoned due to bad weather and darkness.
> 
> He said a number of the asylum seekers on board had initially refused to be evacuated.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...at-sinking-off-java-coast-20131113-2xgq6.html


----------



## Whiskers (14 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> You argue from the perspective of trying to manage boat arrivals, not prevent them.




Clearly I was arguing to prevent boats arriving directly on Aus mainland.

That is by far the worst case scenario for serious pest and disease destroying our agricultural industries.

Managing boat arrivals MUST also be the strong second string, rather than taking their eye off the ball leaving the back door/flank completely exposed to boats arriving directly on the mainland while obsessed with other dumb policies.

After all they did happily broadcast they were going to get up in the face of Indonesia. Regardless that they try to blackout the media information on ongoing operations... they unwittingly happily told the smugglers where their ongoing operations would be weak or non existent, where we would be vulnerable.


----------



## Boggo (14 November 2013)

Got to be considered I guess !!


----------



## Whiskers (14 November 2013)

Boggo said:


> Got to be considered I guess !!




No doubt about your wit and humour Boggo!  

True! It's not all as cut and dried as we often like to think.


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> Clearly I was arguing to prevent boats arriving directly on Aus mainland.



Labor weren't much chop at that either.

One even got to Geraldton.



Boggo said:


> Got to be considered I guess !!



That did the rounds some time ago and offers the obvious historical perspective.

It doesn't offer much though in the context of a solution to the present situation.


----------



## Whiskers (14 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Labor weren't much chop at that either.
> 
> One even got to Geraldton.




Yes, but the reason Abbott is getting so much flack is he reckoned he would do sooo much better. 

But as I keep reminding you, he is in the hot seat NOW, the buck stops with him... but he's passing the 'buck' more than ever with more secrecy, misinformation and controversy with Indonesia than when Gillard stopped the live cattle trade and blaming everyone but themselves.


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2013)

In terms of numbers, it will be interesting to see what tomorrow's Operation Sovereign Borders briefing reveals.

Since last Friday's briefing, there are three lots of arrivals known. Two at Xmas Island and one at Darwin. The two Xmas Islands arrivals were about 60 and 40 each. For the Darwin arrival, reports have been either 20 or 60 therein. 

If it's 60, the total for the week would be about 160 as it currently stands. Whilst obviously disappointing in comparison to two weeks of no arrivals, it's still a lot lower arrival rate than we were seeing under Labor. 

A fourth boat load close to the Indonesian coast was rescued yesterday by Indonesian authorities and remain in Indonesia. 

Meanwhile, in its discussions with Australia, Indonesia now wants to reduce its maritime SAR zone. 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...nesia-to-change-the-rules-20131113-2xh0v.html

It seems that in Indonesia's public campaign at least, they're coming up with something new every 5-minutes while our government overall is being much more disciplined in its approach to these discussions.


----------



## trainspotter (14 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Labor weren't much chop at that either.
> 
> One even got to Geraldton.




Careful Doc ... too close to home. This one got swept under the carpet REAL QUICK! Something DEFINITELY not right with this scenario. Let's assume they left around Surabaya area and motored all the way with the 3 cylinder Lister diesel on board cruising at 5 knots shall we. Surabaya is approx 2500kms away in a straight line. Therefore a minimum voyage of 2 weeks is in order. 66 people for 2 weeks on a 30 foot boat? Let's get back to the fuel situation shall we? 3 litres per hour at 5 knots is being very very generous as it was a clunky old boat and not a Yanmar engine btw. Soooooooooooo ... over 1000 litres of diesel burned along the way? 

Hmmmmmmm ... something fishy here !


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2013)

On the spying claims in relation to Indonesia,



> Indonesia called in Australia's ambassador to register its displeasure, and later refused to accept a boat load of asylum-seekers rescued in its search and rescue zone.
> 
> Mr Abbott told the ABC's 7.30 program last night that the "so-called spying" had taken place under the former Labor government.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tony-abbott-says/story-fn59nm2j-1226759695572

My bolds.



trainspotter said:


> Careful Doc ... too close to home. This one got swept under the carpet REAL QUICK! Something DEFINITELY not right with this scenario. Let's assume they left around Surabaya area and motored all the way with the 3 cylinder Lister diesel on board cruising at 5 knots shall we. Surabaya is approx 2500kms away in a straight line. Therefore a minimum voyage of 2 weeks is in order. 66 people for 2 weeks on a 30 foot boat? Let's get back to the fuel situation shall we? 3 litres per hour at 5 knots is being very very generous as it was a clunky old boat and not a Yanmar engine btw. Soooooooooooo ... over 1000 litres of diesel burned along the way?
> 
> Hmmmmmmm ... something fishy here !



The boat carrying 66 Sri Lankan passengers was apparently at sea for 44 days and travelled 5000km.

http://www.news.com.au/national/asy...s-into-geraldton/story-e6frfkp9-1226615986980


----------



## trainspotter (14 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> The boat carrying 66 Sri Lankan passengers was apparently at sea for 44 days and travelled 5000km.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/asy...s-into-geraldton/story-e6frfkp9-1226615986980




Treble my numbers then and it gets very smelly indeed !


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Treble my numbers then and it gets very smelly indeed !



What exactly are you thinking ?


----------



## trainspotter (14 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> What exactly are you thinking ?




Who was the "sponsor" written all over the side of the boat?


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Who was the "sponsor" written all over the side of the boat?



IIRC, it was a donation in the aftermath of the 2003 tsunami.

One other interesting calculation is that for fresh water. I'm not sure exactly how much fresh water an individual on a small boat in the tropics would need, but 1 litre per person per day for 66 people over 44 days equates to 2904 litres.


----------



## trainspotter (14 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> IIRC, it was a donation in the aftermath of the 2003 tsunami.
> 
> One other interesting calculation is that for fresh water. I'm not sure exactly how much fresh water an individual on a small boat in the tropics would need, but 1 litre per person per day for 66 people over 44 days equates to 2904 litres.




Seems odd they chose to leave the "sponsor" name on the vessel as such an identifiable tag glaring out for all to see? If they wanted to go into stealth mode to avoid Customs etc surely this would have been removed? Anyways just another conspiracy theory 

3 tonne of water along with 3 tonne of fuel for such a journey and they were "allegedly" on their way to New Zealand. Very fishy IMO. Back to the food logistics ... similar amount in weight required to feed that many people as well (assuming). 66 people lets say approx 60 kilos each = 4 tonne or thereabouts. Therefore 3 tonne fuel + 3 tonne of water + 3 tonne of food + 4 tonne of human cargo = doesn't add up?


----------



## Whiskers (14 November 2013)

trainspotter said:


> Seems odd they chose to leave the "sponsor" name on the vessel as such an identifiable tag glaring out for all to see? If they wanted to go into stealth mode to avoid Customs etc surely this would have been removed? Anyways just another conspiracy theory




If customs or the navy caught sight of them in our waters it wouldn't matter if the boat wore a sponsors badge, a sexy name or dressed up like a drag queen... they would investigate everyone. Once they are spotted on radar or visual it's game over whatever their close up makeup is. 



> 3 tonne of water along with 3 tonne of fuel for such a journey and they were "allegedly" on their way to New Zealand. Very fishy IMO. Back to the food logistics ... similar amount in weight required to feed that many people as well (assuming). 66 people lets say approx 60 kilos each = 4 tonne or thereabouts. Therefore 3 tonne fuel + 3 tonne of water + 3 tonne of food + 4 tonne of human cargo = doesn't add up?




Probably not so fishy when you consider they probably catch fish or shark for most of their food. 

Even without catching fish, 66 people could survive on 2 tonne of food and water combined per month (500 ml water and 500g rice and veg per day) . After all they are only given bare essentials to survive the trip. They are not eating gourmet class are they!

Didn't some of the earlier boats sometimes have makeshift sails to help with power. 

Does add up to why so many break down or break up at sea.


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> So Rudd's PNG policy is working then as its not Abbotts?




As you like to squawk on about Rudd's PNG policy, what about a response to this,



drsmith said:


> If Kevin Rudd's quick election solution is working so well in isolation, why did Labor wait so long to implement such a solution ?
> 
> Why did Labor wait after the arrivals first resumed after Kevin Rudd dismantled the Howard government's policies ?
> 
> ...




I'll add to that the $11bn cost and counting.

These questions are clearly too difficult for you to answer as they are for Labor.


----------



## drsmith (15 November 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders weekly update Friday November 15:*

3 boats carrying 163 passengers. There were also 31 voluntary returns to country of origin from Nauru and Manus Island.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-15/morrison-weekly-update/5094630

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

707 passengers on 13 boats over 8 weeks.


----------



## drsmith (15 November 2013)

Opposition spokesman on Immigration Richard Marles has claimed in a presser today that in the last two weeks before the election we were down to one boat per week.

The record as per the media releases from Customs from Saturday August 24 to Friday September 6 is as follows,



> 6 September 2013 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 2 September 2013 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 2 September 2013 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> 26 August 2013 Border Protection Command assists vessel
> ...




http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp


----------



## IFocus (15 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> As you like to squawk on about Rudd's PNG policy, what about a response to this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No difficulty at all although I am time poor.

Rudd clearly got it wrong totally dismantling the Howard be cruel to boat people policy if stopping boats was the go but you and every other Coalition groupie forget he (Rudd)convincingly won an election on the pledge to do just that.

As for PNG just shows how intellectually deficient the claims are that the Rudd / Gillard governments were in any way socialist or left wing.

I don't think there is any thing to crow about when we as a nation find excuses to treat people like this

Abbott's new world order



> Those that did probably spoke for the rest when they listed their complaints: snakes inside their accommodation, malaria, lack of malaria tablets, no mosquito nets, inedible food that often has cockroaches in it, no fresh fruit or vegetables and repeated requests to see a doctor or a nurse.
> 
> ''It's always the same but as time goes by the men are getting more desperate and more sick. They all complain about kidney pain, headache, insomnia, but it takes at least three weeks for a doctor to see a client,'' one worker said.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...world-order-20131114-2xji4.html#ixzz2kh4ZqR6g


History will not be kind to this period.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> No difficulty at all although I am time poor.
> 
> Rudd clearly got it wrong totally dismantling the Howard be cruel to boat people policy if stopping boats was the go but you and every other Coalition groupie forget he (Rudd)convincingly won an election on the pledge to do just that.
> 
> ...








iFocus, you just need to look at Europe to see the mess that occurs from a slapdash attitude to border security.

The UK is bracing itself for a 1/4 million influx of Roma, Romanians and Bulgarians due to European Union rules.

I have no time for the poms, as they joined the EU and screwed our farmers and exports, for a quick few francs.

Amsterdam and Holland in general is a changed place from when I was a kid. Demographics would indicate a further major shift over the next 50 years.






To paraphrase Mr.Howard, we are entitled to decide who comes through our borders, and on what terms they do so.

Rudd will not go down in history other than the muppet who tried to do away with any type of control over our borders.

gg


----------



## IFocus (15 November 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> iFocus, you just need to look at Europe to see the mess that occurs from a slapdash attitude to border security.
> 
> The UK is bracing itself for a 1/4 million influx of Roma, Romanians and Bulgarians due to European Union rules.
> 
> ...





Have to agree GG France is even a bigger mess but in the UK I remember some one saying how hard it was to find an Englishman in the bigger cities.

Boat people are an issue but a bigger one is African refugees coming through the front door IMHO.

 Somalis are not even accepted by other African nations yet we seem to be taking large numbers, young gangs are already an issue in Perth.

I never liked Howard as his moves seemed to me to be overt political when compared to previous PM's.

History wont treat Rudd well either and I suspect Abbott's political modus operandi wont go down equally as well IMHO of course.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Have to agree GG France is even a bigger mess but in the UK I remember some one saying how hard it was to find an Englishman in the bigger cities.
> 
> Boat people are an issue but a bigger one is African refugees coming through the front door IMHO.
> 
> ...




I would certainly agree with most of your statements, and totally with your sentiments.

We have a large Somali population in Townsville, and in the shopping centre I saw a few of them last weekend and thought they would add some height and melanoma protection to my childrens' genes.

I am very much pro-immigration and protection of asylum seekers. I would offer protection to anyone fleeing their homeland under duress or discrimination, but many of the illegals appear fat on it, and I'd imagine had thrown the latest model mobile iphone overboard on sighting an Australian vessel, with their pincodes for bank accounts in email caches for use later.

They don't seem like refugees to me.

At least the people processed legally have been screened for need.

And Rudd was the biggest muppet ever, ever. A complete idiot. I wouldn't send him down to the corner shop to buy me a pack of Winfield.

Abbott , I feel has the mongrel and ethical training to handle this difficult task with illegals on the one hand and genuine asylum seekers on the other.

gg


----------



## drsmith (15 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> No difficulty at all although I am time poor.
> 
> Rudd clearly got it wrong totally dismantling the Howard be cruel to boat people policy if stopping boats was the go but you and every other Coalition groupie forget he (Rudd)convincingly won an election on the pledge to do just that.



The electorate being duped doesn't make it right. It also doesn't restore the associated expenditure to the budget or bring back the lives lost. 

It also doesn't make it right that the Gillard government pledged to solve this problem but only succeeded in making it much worse through her alliance with the Greens.



IFocus said:


> As for PNG just shows how intellectually deficient the claims are that the Rudd / Gillard governments were in any way socialist or left wing.



Isn't it ironic that Labor created such a mess for the nation and for themselves that they were faced with such a conflict between their electoral prospects and their ideology.

If you're this time poor then perhaps it's better to say nothing on this subject at all.


----------



## drsmith (15 November 2013)

Operation Sovereign Borders stats are also summarised by the ABC,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents/5014496


----------



## IFocus (16 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> If you're this time poor then perhaps it's better to say nothing on this subject at all.





Its better you stick to debating the issue rather than lecturing what others should or shouldn't do.

- - - Updated - - -



drsmith said:


> The electorate being duped doesn't make it right.





Budget emergency anyone?


----------



## drsmith (16 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Its better you stick to debating the issue rather than lecturing what others should or shouldn't do.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Budget emergency anyone?



I note you've taken my advice.


----------



## trainspotter (16 November 2013)

I don't often use this but here I go .... LOL at drsmith riposte. Succinct is the word.


----------



## IFocus (16 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> I note you've taken my advice.





Your behaviour is noted.


----------



## drsmith (16 November 2013)

Fairfax has crunched some numbers on arrivals since Kevin Rudd's PNG announcement,



> In the first half of that period, in the early days of the Papua New Guinea policy, 2649 people arrived by boat. In the second half, 777 arrived, which is a 70.1 per cent drop. The number of people then dropped to 378 in the first four weeks of Operation Sovereign Borders - a 51.4 per cent drop - and down to 329 in the second four weeks of the policy, a further 13 per cent drop.




In dividing the Labor period under the PNG policy into halves, there were 4 boats carrying 503 passengers intercepted on the 19th and 20th of August which Fairfax appear to have counted in the first half. The PNG policy was active from July 20 and the Abbott government was sworn in on Sept 18. Equal division of the Labor period is therefore July 20 to Aug 18 (30 days) and Aug 19 to Sept 17 (30 days).

That aside, 777 arrivals over 4 weeks (28 days) still represents an arrival rate of approximately 10,000 per year which demonstrates the extent to which Kevin Rudd's PNG policy was simply too little too late for Labor.

I also note that Fairfax is quoting the following from Richard Marles, without question.



> In the last two weeks before the election, we were down to one boat arrival per week.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-arrivals-was-under-labor-20131115-2xmd2.html


----------



## drsmith (16 November 2013)

> New York Times Magazine has published story and photo from journalists who travelled to Christmas Island on asylum seeker boat




This has also made the mainstream media, but I post the link from Michael Smith's site because the comments to the article there also make for good reading.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ournalists-who-travelled-to-christmas-is.html


----------



## trainspotter (17 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Your behaviour is noted.




Equal LOL to this comeback. Touche'


----------



## trainspotter (17 November 2013)

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-seeker-account-published-20131116-2xncq.html

Errrrmm ... if 2 journalists can arrange a trip from Kabul to Australia via Indonesia on a leaky boat why oh why cannot the AFP or similar .... oh never mind.



> Two journalists who went undercover on an asylum seeker boat bound for Australia have published details of their harrowing voyage.
> 
> In an extensive report accompanied by images and footage, published by The New York Times Magazine on Saturday, US writer Luke Mogelson recounted the cramped three-day, 320km-plus September trip aboard a nine-metre "sad" timber boat that was "clearly not designed for passengers".
> 
> ...


----------



## drsmith (17 November 2013)

trainspotter said:


> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-seeker-account-published-20131116-2xncq.html
> 
> Errrrmm ... if 2 journalists can arrange a trip from Kabul to Australia via Indonesia on a leaky boat why oh why cannot the AFP or similar .... oh never mind.



Probably because there are other ways to gather intel without the potential suicide mission on a boat. I doubt the journalists would have realised the risk they were taking before they embarked on such a journey.

The asylum seekers have passports to get into Indonesia and don't when picked up by our forces in the ocean so it's a no brainer as to what happens to them.

Corruption between Indonesian police and people smugglers can be determined on land.

That being said, I suspect the authorities in both countries will take a keen interest in the detail of the material and be able to use it in joint operations in Indonesia itself to assist in preventing the boats leaving their shores. It confirms much of the detail that has been previously discussed.


----------



## trainspotter (17 November 2013)

Agreed learned drsmith on the potential suicide mission. I was getting ahead of myself there. What I was implying was that if 2 journos can arrange passage to Australia whilst in Kabul via a people smuggler that the Australian government is hell bent on catching then surely we should be employing more journalists instead of the AFP to hunt down aforementioned people smugglers ?

Patrol boats as a gift to Sri Lanka but very tight lipped on the human rights issues I see? Indonesia will be asking for an aircraft carrier next !
*
THE Australian government will donate two retired patrol boats to the Sri Lankan Navy today in a gesture aimed at securing the sustained co-operation in operations against people smuggling of a force long rumoured to have had a hand in the illegal trade. *

See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...y-fn59niix-1226761763924#sthash.xJHHMAIg.dpuf


----------



## drsmith (17 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Opposition spokesman on Immigration Richard Marles has claimed in a presser today that in the last two weeks before the election we were down to one boat per week.
> 
> The record as per the media releases from Customs from Saturday August 24 to Friday September 6 is as follows,
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp




Tony Bourke on the ABC's Insiders today isn't quiet as loose with the truth as Richard Marles, but he's still stretching it somewhat,



> But go to the final two weeks before the election - the numbers by the final fortnight in the election were the same as what's happening now.




The 6 boats in the fortnight above had a total of 297 passengers. In the 12 days that followed while the caretaker provisions applied, there was a further 475 on 7 boats. In the 4 weeks before the Coalition government was sworn in, there was 772 arrivals from 13 boats.

By comparison, in the two weeks to Friday there has been 163 arrivals on 3 boats and 329 over the past 4 weeks on 5 boats.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2013/s3892633.htm


----------



## drsmith (19 November 2013)

Report of another boat intercept over the weekend with approximately 40 on board.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/commander-silent-on-boat-arrival-20131119-2xt5c.html


----------



## Whiskers (20 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Report of another boat intercept over the weekend with approximately 40 on board.
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/commander-silent-on-boat-arrival-20131119-2xt5c.html




The opening paragraph...
The federal government won't say whether a Customs vessel accidentally ripped the bow off a rickety asylum seeker boat while towing it near Christmas island, throwing passengers into the water.​
The attempted towing back of boats under Howard led to the break up of a boat and the fabrication of the "Children Overboard affair"... a lie, in a cynical ploy to win government. 

The coalition of the willing, Weapons of Mass Destruction lie, to coerce a fraudulent UN resolution and invasion of Iraq.

The same deceptive politicians (at the top), the same low moral and ethical standards.

Wary of being caught out again, trying to dress up a chameleon after the fact... as a last, desperate, resort they try a variation of the 'coalition of the willing' tactic... premeditate a beat up of a national disaster, dress it up in "Operation Sovereign Borders" to 'try' to justify gaging the media and senate estimates in the guise of 'operational security'. 

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” 
― Adolf Hitler​
I can only repeat... this is not going to end well for Abbott and co.


----------



## drsmith (20 November 2013)

Whiskers said:


> I can only repeat... this is not going to end well for Abbott and co.



He gets more sleep than you do.

Meanwhile, in Fairfax world, there's more than one journalist that want to see the boats keep coming.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._send_more_boats_against_abbott/#commentsmore


----------



## trainspotter (20 November 2013)

Well well well ... we are spying but their Navy officers are people smuggling?



> *THREE Indonesian navy officers have been arrested for alleged involvement in a people-smuggling operation that was set to send a boat of more than 100 asylum seekers to Australia.*
> 
> The development comes amid a backlash over recent spying allegations, with Indonesia threatening to withdraw co-operation with Australia on various fronts, including joint efforts to stem the flow of asylum-seeker boats to Christmas Island.




http://www.news.com.au/world/indone...gling-operations/story-fndir2ev-1226764254085

Betcha THAT doesn't make Media Indonesia newspaper !

What's this ? Indonesian Intelligence official admits to spying on Australia in 2004?



> INDONESIA says it doesn't spy on Australia; but it did once, according to a former Indonesian intelligence chief.
> 
> In a 2004 interview, retiring Indonesian intelligence chief General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono said his agency tapped Australian civil and military communications and politicians' phone calls.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...telligence-chief/story-fn59nm2j-1226763231240


----------



## drsmith (20 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> Opposition spokesman on Immigration Richard Marles has claimed in a presser today that in the last two weeks before the election we were down to one boat per week.
> 
> The record as per the media releases from Customs from Saturday August 24 to Friday September 6 is as follows,
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/media-releases-2013.asp



Richard Marles in has doubled his previous figure stated in Parliament that its now 4 boats in the 14 days before the election. He's getting closer at least. Add another 2 and he'll have it right.

I don't know why Labor keep banging on about the issue that was their greatest policy failure in government.


----------



## drsmith (20 November 2013)

Sarah Hanson-Young's wishful thinking on the Coalition border protection framework,



> Abbott's OSB policy is over. Worst of all he's stuffed this up so badly a lack of cooperation on search & rescue will put lives at risk.




https://twitter.com/sarahinthesen8


----------



## drsmith (21 November 2013)

Labor really are extraordinary with some of their commentary on this.



> Senior Labor MP Tony Burke, a former immigration minister, says Indonesian cooperation had built up over time.




Is that the cooperation that built up to 1,000 boat arrivals per week under the prime ministership of Julia Gillard ? 

http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...k-to-boat-action/story-e6frfku9-1226765035353


----------



## drsmith (22 November 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders weekly update Friday November 22:*

1 boat carrying 35 passengers. Arrivals so far for November is 198 passengers on 4 boats. There were also 21 voluntary returns to country of origin from Nauru and Manus Island.

The briefing itself is broadcast live on ABC24 from around 12:30pm EDST. The Customs link below may not show the updated information till later today.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

742 passengers on 14 boats over 9 weeks.


----------



## IFocus (22 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> *Operation Sovereign Borders weekly update Friday November 22:*
> 
> 1 boat carrying 35 passengers. Arrivals so far for November is 198 passengers on 4 boats. There were also 21 voluntary returns to country of origin from Nauru and Manus Island.
> 
> ...




Did Morrison actually answer any questions or was it the usual on water operations BS


----------



## drsmith (22 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Did Morrison actually answer any questions or was it the usual on water operations BS



On the topic of the usual BS, ................


----------



## sails (22 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Did Morrison actually answer any questions or was it the usual on water operations BS





What gets me is the journos that keep asking questions they have been told are operational matters.  And yet, week after week, they keep asking the same questions only to be told again and again they won't be answered.

Maybe if the journos stopped repeating pathetic questions, they might find they get answers!  It's quite boring listening to the same questions week after week.


PS - Whiskers, I have you on ignore so please don't respond to me as I will not be replying.


----------



## sails (22 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Did Morrison actually answer any questions or was it the usual on water operations BS




And, surely, this is the most important message:


> *He said last November there were 2630 asylum-seekers on 43 boats and so far this month there had been four boats carrying fewer than 200 people.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tt-morrison-says/story-fn9hm1gu-1226766047950


----------



## IFocus (23 November 2013)

sails said:


> What gets me is the journos that keep asking questions they have been told are operational matters.  And yet, week after week, they keep asking the same questions only to be told again and again they won't be answered.
> 
> Maybe if the journos stopped repeating pathetic questions, they might find they get answers!  It's quite boring listening to the same questions week after week.




That would'nt be like the pathetic questions he kept asking when he was in opposition would it?

Its fascist  and non democratic behaviour not being told how Australian agency's are treating people and what their welfare state is using the military to hid behind a veil of secrecy for political reasons..

I think his behaviour will destroy Morrison's future political career as Australia will never trust him again ever and they will have good reason not to.

But thats what the extreme right do so well and their supporters cheer on.

It will all come out in the wash eventually.


----------



## IFocus (23 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> On the topic of the usual BS, ................




Quote "I will not comment about on water operational matters"

End of interview.


----------



## drsmith (23 November 2013)

IF,

Lieutenant General Campbell made the reasons about disclosure clear in the briefing on Friday November 15. The briefing transcript is available from the Customs link above should you choose to read it as is every other briefing transcript since the commencement of OSB.


----------



## drsmith (27 November 2013)

Another boat with approximately 11 on board.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...tage-with-a-whale-and-calf-while-fishing.html


----------



## trainspotter (29 November 2013)

Best thing that could have happened is the lack of cooperation from the Indonesian government on people smuggling/asylum seekers. How many boats have turned up since the "sanctions" have started? 

Maybe if the Indonesian Navy would stop assisting in the operations it might help stem the tide of human traffic.



> The officers were arrested on Tuesday while transporting 106 Rohingya, including 20 children, to a beach in West Java.




http://www.news.com.au/world/indone...gling-operations/story-fndir2ev-1226764254085


----------



## drsmith (29 November 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders weekly update Friday November 29:*

1 boat carrying 9 passengers. There were also 4 voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres. Arrivals so far for November is 207 passengers on 5 boats. Total voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September is 124.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 29/11/2013: 9 passengers on 1 boat.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

751 passengers on 15 boats over 10 weeks.


----------



## IFocus (29 November 2013)

drsmith said:


> *Operation Sovereign Borders weekly update Friday November 29:*
> 
> 1 boat carrying 9 passengers. There were also 4 voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres. Arrivals so far for November is 207 passengers on 5 boats. Total voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September is 124.
> 
> ...




It appears Rudd's policy of be cruel to the boat people hasn't quite worked.

Still I think Morrison is up to the job for a higher level of cruelty.

Note the boats haven't stopped yet.


----------



## drsmith (29 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> Still I think Morrison is up to the job for a higher level of cruelty.



On the topic of cruelty, I could say something about a relentless monotone squawk.


----------



## sails (29 November 2013)

IFocus said:


> It appears Rudd's policy of be cruel to the boat people hasn't quite worked.
> 
> Still I think Morrison is up to the job for a higher level of cruelty.
> 
> Note the boats haven't stopped yet.




IFocus, is it cruel to stop people coming here fraudulently and giving genuine refugees a place here instead?  I guess you would also say Centrelink is cruel for giving criminal convictions to Aussies who want additional money and tell fibs to get welfare.  

There are correct channels to come to Australia just like there is correct procedure for getting welfare.


The boats haven't stopped buy they are down over 90% from the same time last year  - not a bad effort in a few short weeks in government:



> This week’s arrivals: one boat with nine boat people.
> 
> Total boat arrivals so far for November (with just one day to go in the month): five, with 207 people on board.
> 
> Total boat arrivals last November: 43, with 2630 people on board.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._november_under_gillard_2630_boat_people_las/


----------



## bellenuit (30 November 2013)

Since it is current Coalition policy and was ALP policy to reduce our refugee intake from official sources by the amount that arrive unofficially by sea, the government should somehow link the two in their weekly media conferences. I know official refugee intake cannot be regulated on a weekly basis depending on how many arrive unoffially, as it probably takes months of planning for the arrival of official refugees and also it would be highly cruel to suddenly tell people selected to come here that it's all off as their places have been taken by others. However, something along the lines off the following may work:

"100 asylum seekers arrived by boat on the week ending 30th November. Unfortunately this will mean that the 1000 refugees in UN refugee camps that we were planning to allow come here in the month of March 2014 have now been reduced to 900. You may recall that the original quota for March 2014 was 1350, but has been reduced to 1000 due to the illegal arrivals in the first 3 weeks of November".  

This would educate the public and perhaps the world media to the fact that Australia does have a good humanitarian refugee policy, but is being thwarted at every turn by the PC brigade. It might also make those on the left who are so quick to throw the word "cruel" around realise there are two sides to every coin.


----------



## drsmith (2 December 2013)

In a move that defies belief, Labor is set to side with the Greens in the Senate against TPV's.


----------



## drsmith (3 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> In a move that defies belief, Labor is set to side with the Greens in the Senate against TPV's.



And that they have done.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...ylum-seeker-policy-after-tpvs-blocked/5131080

Meanwhile, we could have another boat.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...arrott-is-at-the-helm-of-ocean-protector.html


----------



## drsmith (4 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> Meanwhile, we could have another boat.
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...arrott-is-at-the-helm-of-ocean-protector.html



29 passengers and 2 crew offloaded on Xmas Island yesterday afternoon.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/12/arrival-of-the-attitudes-on-christmas-island-yesterday.html

Scott's Morrison's response to the Labor/Green Senate blockade on TPV's,



> THE government has banned new permanent protection visas for asylum seekers already in Australia, slamming the door shut on permanent residency for the 33,000 boat arrivals held in detention centres or on bridging visas.
> 
> The Daily Telegraph has learned Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has used powers under Section 85 of the Migration Act to put an immediate cap on permanent protection (class XA) visas for asylum seekers who arrived by boat. The legal order was issued yesterday to the Department of Immigration to cease approving PPVs to circumvent the move in the Senate by the Greens and Labor on Monday night to reject the Coalition's attempts to revive the Howard-era temporary protection visas.






> Mr Morrison has also used provisions under section 46 of the Migration Act - which apply to ministerial discretion to allow applications to be made by asylum seekers offshore - and has placed a self-imposed ban on allowing applications to be made for permanent protection visas.
> 
> All other humanitarian visa programs remain in place, such as those which apply for asylum seekers in UN-administered refugee camps overseas.
> 
> ...




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=805174


----------



## drsmith (4 December 2013)

SHY who declared OSB as over after the spying revelations on Indonesia is not happy.



> 11:11am: There are reports today that Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has decreed that asylum seekers who arrives by boat and are already in Australia will be left on bridging visas.
> 
> This is in response to the Senate (Labor and the Greens) blocking the Coalition's re-introduction of TPVs earlier this week.
> 
> ...



I know who's having the hissy fit.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...tics-live-december-4-2013-20131204-2ypfl.html


----------



## sails (4 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> 29 passengers and 2 crew offloaded on Xmas Island yesterday afternoon.
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/12/arrival-of-the-attitudes-on-christmas-island-yesterday.html




Yes - "arrival of the attitudes" as shown by the photo below found on Michael Smith's site.  Interesting how well fed and muscular this bloke is too - like other photos we have seen of arrivals.  Genuine refugees with little or no money in squalid camps are most unlikely to look anything like the picture of health below, imo:


----------



## Calliope (4 December 2013)

sails said:


> Yes - "arrival of the attitudes" as shown by the photo below found on Michael Smith's site.  Interesting how well fed and muscular this bloke is too - like other photos we have seen of arrivals.  Genuine refugees with little or no money in squalid camps are most unlikely to look anything like the picture of health below, imo:




I think we should change *our* attitudes to our new arrivals. Surely the name of Christmas Island is offensive to new arrivals who are mostly Muslims. The name is politically incorrect and should be changed to "Holiday Island". I wouldn't be surprised if the trauma of arrival at such an insensitively named island doesn't result in large numbers of Past Traumatic Shock syndrome cases.

I suggest we all write to Sarah Hanson-Young for her support on a name change.


----------



## trainspotter (4 December 2013)

Calliope said:


> I suggest we all write to Sarah Hanson-Young for her support on a name change.




I suggest she changes her name to Sarah "bikini shoot" - Hanson "Asylum seeker" - Young. 



> The publisher today succeeded in having those arguments struck out.
> 
> Justice Lucy McCallum also disallowed claims that the piece suggested Senator Hanson-Young was *too emotional and immature *to make a serious contribution on asylum seekers.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...toshopped-bikini-pictures-20130911-2tkld.html


----------



## drsmith (5 December 2013)

Interesting piece from the Colombo Post,



> The flow of boat people from Sri Lanka and Iran has reversed for the first time in three years, with more being sent back than arrive, The Australian website reported.
> 
> The net decline in asylum-seekers from two of the biggest source countries in the past three years coincides with the lowest November total for asylum-seeker arrivals since Kevin Rudd repealed the Howard government border-protection laws.
> 
> ...




http://colombogazette.com/2013/12/04/decline-in-lankan-boat-people/


----------



## trainspotter (5 December 2013)

Just gotta love this bit:-



> *In the last week of November, despite tensions between Australia and Indonesia over spying allegations, there was only one illegal boat arrival with nine passengers.*




2 reasons:-

1) Indonesian Navy is not escorting boat people through the Java Sea

2) Monsoon season Timor Sea


----------



## drsmith (5 December 2013)

It looks like another 25 have been roughing it on a remote beach on Xmas Island since Monday.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...of-some-sort-of-trouble-on-the-.html#comments

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...-reports-incident-on-christmas-island/5138502

That's about 54 from 2 boats that is known of since last Friday's briefing.


----------



## drsmith (8 December 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders weekly update Friday December 6:*

4 boats carrying 189 passengers. There was 1 voluntary return to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres.. Total voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September is 125.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/OSBoperationalupdateasat1700131206.pdf

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 29/11/2013: 9 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 6/12/2013: 189 passengers on 4 boats.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

940 passengers on 19 boats over 11 weeks.


----------



## drsmith (10 December 2013)

Another boat has attempted to leave Indonesia only to limp back after being hit by a large wave. 27 made it back to shore alive. There were 3 dead.


----------



## drsmith (13 December 2013)

*Operation Sovereign Borders weekly update Friday December 13:*

1 boat carrying 3 passengers. There was 1 voluntary return to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres. Total voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September is 126.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/131213-OperationalUpdate.pdf

In relation to the expected longevity of the offshore detention arrangements under Rudd 2 is the following from the media briefing,



> SCOTT MORRISON: Welcome to the thirteenth briefing on Operation Sovereign Borders. At earlier briefings I have referred to the underfunding of offshore processing under the previous Government that has been inherited by this Government. I can confirm today that the funding shortfall for offshore processing at Nauru and Manus Island from the former Government is $1.2 billion for both capital and operational expenditure over the forward estimates including $370 million in the current financial year.
> 
> *And this has been confirmed by the Department of Finance and my own department. Service contracts on Manus Island and Nauru are due to expire at the end of January of next year and there was no provision for my department beyond the expiry of those contracts.*




http://www.customs.gov.au/site/131213OSBtranscript.asp

My bolds.

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 29/11/2013: 9 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 6/12/2013: 189 passengers on 4 boats.
Week to Friday 13/12/2013: 3 passengers on 1 boat.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

943 passengers on 20 boats over 12 weeks.


----------



## drsmith (14 December 2013)

Another boat with an estimated 70 arrivals.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...al-entrants-and-we-discuss-indonesias-co.html


----------



## drsmith (15 December 2013)

drsmith said:


> Another boat with an estimated 70 arrivals.
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...al-entrants-and-we-discuss-indonesias-co.html



Pics,

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-christmas-island-today-courtesy-of-shaz.html


----------



## drsmith (4 January 2014)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday January 03:*

The last three weeks are highlighted below in bold. Total voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September is now 133.

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/operation-sovereign-borders.asp

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 29/11/2013: 9 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 6/12/2013: 189 passengers on 4 boats.
Week to Friday 13/12/2013: 3 passengers on 1 boat.
*Week to Friday 20/12/2013: 167 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 27/12/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 03/01/2014: No boats.*

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

1110 passengers on 22 boats over 15 weeks.


----------



## drsmith (6 January 2014)

Another boat (35 passengers) ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-01/asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted-north-of-darwin/5181346

This one didn't make last week's operational update. 

There's also speculation on a turn back, 

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...report-about-a-certain-maritime-incident.html

http://hazaraasylumseekers.wordpress.com/category/asylum-seekers-in-indonesia-2/


----------



## drsmith (7 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> There's also speculation on a turn back,
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...report-about-a-certain-maritime-incident.html



A measure of the success of this government's approach to border protection is how much Sarah Hanson-Young screams.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...an-navy-towed-back-asylum-seeker-boat/5187232

OSB was never as dead as she dreamed.

EDIT: The Fairfax press reports two turn backs in recent times.



> Indonesian water police told Fairfax Media that two boats have been turned back by the Australian Navy, one on Monday and one in December.
> 
> The boat from Monday carried 45 passengers, 36 of whom were male and nine female, mostly asylum-seekers from Africa though with several from the Middle East, according to Indonesian police sources.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...er-boat-back-to-indonesia-20140107-30ea4.html

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...avy-drives-boat-people-indonesian-waters.html


----------



## drsmith (7 January 2014)

Encouraging snippets from another article in the Jakarta Post,



> “The Australian Navy sent the illegal immigrants back to Indonesia,” Rote Ndao Police Chief Adj. Sr. Comr. Hidayat said as quoted by news portal Antara.
> 
> Quoting one of the boat people, Hidayat said that the Australian Navy provided the immigrants with life vests and communication equipment before repelling them into Indonesian waters. “The Australian Navy knows that the local ship crews will usually put leaks in boats that aim to enter Australian waters, thus they took the initiative to anticipate it,” Hidayat added.






> Minister’s office spokesman Agus Barnas said that even though the government had suspended cooperation with Australia, including on the boat people issue, the government’s decision to accept the immigrants was justified for humanitarian reasons. “Where else should they go if Australia repelled them?” he said.




http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/01/07/boat-people-driven-back-ri.html


----------



## drsmith (8 January 2014)

And this,



> Indonesian Military (TNI) commander Gen. Moeldoko said he understood the Australian government’s decision to turn back a boat of undocumented boat people attempting to reach its shores.
> 
> Speaking to the press at the Defense Ministry on Tuesday, Moeldoko explained that both the Indonesian and Australian governments had earlier agreed to the action: Repelling any migrants who attempted to reach Australia from Indonesian territory and push them back into Indonesian waters.
> 
> ...




http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...-people-ri-justified-indonesian-military.html


----------



## drsmith (8 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> Another boat (35 passengers) ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-01/asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted-north-of-darwin/5181346
> 
> This one didn't make last week's operational update.



A possible explanation as to why this one didn't make last week's operational update. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-08/asylum-seekers-on-boats-turned-back-to-indonesia-speak/5191024

Our navy personal should have also confiscated any currency from the crew.



> Separately, the East Nusa Tenggara Police spokesman Adj. Sr. Comr. Okto Riwu said that two of the crews that helped the undocumented migrants enter Australia were Indonesians, who had escaped after the local police transferred them as well as other crew and passengers to Kupang, the capital of East Nusa Tenggara.




http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/01/08/tni-agrees-oz-policy-migrants.html


----------



## sails (8 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> A possible explanation as to why this one didn't make last week's operational update.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-08/asylum-seekers-on-boats-turned-back-to-indonesia-speak/5191024
> 
> ...




These reports are coming from people who apparently throw their ID overboard in a seeming effort to get welfare.  If Aussies did that, they would probably be charged with fraud.

Why would we believe a word these people say?


----------



## sptrawler (8 January 2014)

sails said:


> These reports are coming from people who apparently throw their ID overboard in a seeming effort to get welfare.  If Aussies did that, they would probably be charged with fraud.
> 
> Why would we believe a word these people say?




Our Government believed it for six years. Or it fitted their agenda.


----------



## sptrawler (9 January 2014)

This is the stupid entitlement mentality the previous Government has left us with.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/20655701/asylum-seekers-accuse-navy-of-abuse/

Some Australians need a reality check IMO. Why didn't these same refugees stay in Indonesia?

Why don't the Australians, who are so concerned about refugees living standards, worry about their own?
Maybe it is because we live by the, I'm ok stuff you mentality, well I think that will change.


----------



## drsmith (10 January 2014)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday January 10:*

No boat arrivals in the past week. Total voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September is unchanged from last week at 133.

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/OperationalUpdate10January2014.pdf

On the issue of turn backs, The Australian reports that up to 5 boats have either been turned or towed back towards Indonesia in the past month.



> Australian Defence Force personnel involved in Operation Sovereign Borders have been warned not to reveal any details of what is happening on the oceans to Australia's north, but The Australian has learned that two asylum-seeker boats were towed to Rote Island, near Indonesian West Timor, while the Indonesian crews of two, and possibly three, other vessels were persuaded to head home without being towed.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...defends-secrecy/story-fn9hm1gu-1226798586538#

In relation to the conflicting signals on turnbacks from the Indonesian government and military, this is perhaps the critical part of Indonesian Military (TNI) commander Gen. Moeldoko clarification today,



> Recalling his phone conversation with Australian Defence Force chief Gen. David Hurley two weeks ago, Moeldoko said on Thursday that he had never made a statement that could be used to justify Australia’s policy.
> 
> *“My statement did not indicate that I agreed [with the policy], but that I understood such tactical moves. And my reasoning was that the UN declaration says that every country has the right to protect its sovereignty. If it were my responsibility, I would have done the same thing. So, that’s the context,” he said. *
> 
> Moeldoko said that he did not want to get involved in politics over the statement. “I am not talking about foreign policy. I am talking about tactical matters in the field.”




http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/01/10/tni-chief-denies-backing-oz-policy.html

My bolds.

This week's OSB media briefing I would suggest has been cancelled to minimise the conflict of the above with Indonesian domestic politics. Under the circumstances, it's a good move by the government that has finally planted the foot over Indonesian crewed boats seeking to breach our sovereign territory.

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 1/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 29/11/2013: 9 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 6/12/2013: 189 passengers on 4 boats.
Week to Friday 13/12/2013: 3 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 20/12/2013: 167 passengers on 2 boats.
Week to Friday 27/12/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 03/01/2014: No boats.
Week to Friday 10/01/2014: No boats.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

1110 passengers on 22 boats over 16 weeks.


----------



## noco (11 January 2014)

The UNHCR claim we are breaking the rules on asylum seekers who fly to Malayasia, on to Indonesia and attempt to enter Australia without ID's.They are illegal immigrants.

I say to hell with the UNHCR...Give them a month notice and remove any agreement we may have had with them.

As qouted by John Howard, "we will decide who comes to Australia and the manner in which they come".






http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...nternational-law/story-fni0xqrb-1226799572473


----------



## drsmith (11 January 2014)

noco said:


> I say to hell with the UNHCR...



Perhaps the UNHCR should also consider the view of Indonesian Military (TNI) commander Gen. Moeldoko. He would do the same thing. 

If the UNHCR got off its ideological high horse, there might actually be less drownings at sea.


----------



## IFocus (12 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> Perhaps the UNHCR should also consider the view of Indonesian Military (TNI) commander Gen. Moeldoko. He would do the same thing.
> 
> If the UNHCR got off its ideological high horse, there might actually be less drownings at sea.




The UNHCF's high horse saves millions of lives world wide and improves millions of others most of those lives are politically powerless not an area of high activity for the religious / conservative politicians world wide.


----------



## drsmith (13 January 2014)

IFocus said:


> The UNHCF's high horse saves millions of lives world wide and improves millions of others most of those lives are politically powerless not an area of high activity for the religious / conservative politicians world wide.



That's what the UNHCF should stick too and not encourage economic refugees to risk their lives country shopping via people smugglers.


----------



## drsmith (13 January 2014)

Outstanding common sense piece by Greg Sheridan in the Australian today.



> THE Abbott government has won a mighty, if still provisional, victory against people-smugglers. Today, it is just under four weeks during which no illegal immigrant has arrived in Australia by boat, nor been taken into Australian immigration authority for transfer to Manus Island or Nauru.
> 
> This is the clearest and most emphatic vindication yet of the electorate's decision to change the government in September. It may be something of a turning point in modern Australian history. It offers Australia the chance of avoiding the European fate of creating a vast underclass of people alienated from their host society.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rivals-pays-off/story-e6frg76f-1226800135277#


----------



## noco (13 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> Outstanding common sense piece by Greg Sheridan in the Australian today.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rivals-pays-off/story-e6frg76f-1226800135277#




Yes Doc...I just read that article and was about to post it untill I learnt you already had.

Yes the UNHCR are certainly trying to pull the wool over our eyes.....Poor Sarah "WATER MELON" Hannson- Young must be cryoing her little eyes out.


----------



## Chris45 (13 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> Outstanding common sense piece by Greg Sheridan in the Australian today.



Excellent article, and thanks for posting it for those of us without access.


----------



## drsmith (14 January 2014)

4 smaller remote detention centres to close,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...re-of-four-mainland-detention-centres/5199160


----------



## sptrawler (14 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> 4 smaller remote detention centres to close,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...re-of-four-mainland-detention-centres/5199160




Yet another message to people smugglers and prospective clients, all that is going to be available is offshore processing.
It just is amazing that Labor encouraged this influx to accelerate, one can only guess at their motive.


----------



## drsmith (14 January 2014)

An operational briefing tomorrow.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...l-stop-holding-weekly-asylum-seeker-b/5200158

That will be most interesting in light of the confidence shown by Scott Morrison in the above interview with Leigh Sales on the ABC's 730 tonight.


----------



## drsmith (15 January 2014)

Today's briefing,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-15/general-campbell-confirms-customs-bought-life-boats/5201116

No boats so far this week.


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

This little incident will no doubt please Bill Shorten and Sarah "WATERMELON" Hanson-Young.

They will no doubt blow it out of the water.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-tells-australia/story-fn9hm1gu-1226804597478


----------



## IFocus (18 January 2014)

I think this line is quite striking from Paula Matthewson 





> As the billboard says, human rights abuse starts with secrecy, but in the case of boat-borne asylum seekers, many Australians seem prepared to accept being treated like mushrooms, lest they start to feel complicit in the atrocity.





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-17/matthewson-abbott-expectations/5203600


----------



## sails (18 January 2014)

IFocus said:


> I think this line is quite striking from Paula Matthewson
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-17/matthewson-abbott-expectations/5203600





IF, you and many other lefties seem to miss the point.  Why should Australia use up her charity dollars for people with thousands of dollars to spend and who may not even be refugees?  We do not have unlimited funds to take in anyone who is not in need.  Even Aussies are means tested - not anyone can rock up to Centrelink to get full payments potentially for life.

I would much rather see a more orderly intake of GENUINE refugees waiting in camps to come here AND taking better care of our own homeless.  Both of these desperately need our help and the gate crashers with money surely should be made to enter the country through the proper channels.

So, please lay off the attempt at guilt.  However,  I actually don't understand why, as a leftie, you are not standing up for the most needy that I have mentioned above.  Very odd.


----------



## noco (18 January 2014)

sails said:


> IF, you and many other lefties seem to miss the point.  Why should Australia use up her charity dollars for people with thousands of dollars to spend and who may not even be refugees?  We do not have unlimited funds to take in anyone who is not in need.  Even Aussies are means tested - not anyone can rock up to Centrelink to get full payments potentially for life.
> 
> I would much rather see a more orderly intake of GENUINE refugees waiting in camps to come here AND taking better care of our own homeless.  Both of these desperately need our help and the gate crashers with money surely should be made to enter the country through the proper channels.
> 
> So, please lay off the attempt at guilt.  However,  I actually don't understand why, as a leftie, you are not standing up for the most needy that I have mentioned above.  Very odd.




Well spoken sails.

Any that ARE allowed in as refugees should be able to speak English, have a trade or profession of some sort and be non-muslim......no more on bloody welfare thank you.


----------



## DB008 (18 January 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Our Government believed it for six years. Or it fitted their agenda.




But mention any of this to a 'leftie', and the come-backs are either;
It's monsoon season, that's why there aren't so many boats (currently)
The boats were already going down before current Gov was in power
Your an idiot

At the end of the day, what the current Gov is doing, is working. Full stop.


----------



## Ferret (18 January 2014)

DB008 said:


> At the end of the day, what the current Gov is doing, is working. Full stop.




Yes, this is an area where the Abbott government has really delivered its promise.  Full marks for this.


----------



## drsmith (19 January 2014)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday January 17:*

No boat arrivals in the past week. Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 has increased by 6 over the past week to 139.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases/operational-update-17-january

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Two weeks to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 29/11/2013: 9 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 6/12/2013: 189 passengers on 4 boats.
Week to Friday 13/12/2013: 3 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 20/12/2013: 167 passengers on 2 boats.
Four weeks to Friday 17/01/2014: No boats.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

1110 passengers on 22 boats over 17 weeks.


----------



## noco (19 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> *Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday January 17:*
> 
> No boat arrivals in the past week. Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 has increased by 6 over the past week to 139.
> 
> ...




Doc, that is music to my ears .....but to Sarah "WATERMELON" Hanson-Yoing, her eyes are shedding tears....to the Labor Party it is now a reminder of the wasted money over the past 6 years.


----------



## drsmith (19 January 2014)

noco said:


> Doc, that is music to my ears .....but to Sarah "WATERMELON" Hanson-Yoing, her eyes are shedding tears....to the Labor Party it is now a reminder of the wasted money over the past 6 years.



I don't know what to make though of the transgressions into Indonesia's territorial waters. At face value, it looks like a significant operational blunder. With modern navigation such as GPS, one wonders how it could have even been made or risked given the distances involved to get anywhere near Australian territory from Indonesia's 12 nautical mile maritime boundary.

Of interest though, on the night before the announcement Friday morning, the story broke in The Australian (News Corp). There was nothing I found at that time either from the SMH (Fairfax) or the ABC. That struck me as odd and leave me wondering whether it was deliberately leaked from within the government to News, just prior to the announcement. 

Then yesterday was more reported detail, again from within the News network.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...rong-information/story-fni0xqrb-1226804452006

This time it seems some of the internal detail of the operation has been leaked, but for what purpose ?

What it has done is draw Indonesia into announcing a step up of their own patrols along their southern maritime boundary with the purpose of checking up on what our maritime resources are doing. While they're there, they might also spot a few of their Indonesian crewed fishing boats intent on breaching our sovereignty.


----------



## drsmith (19 January 2014)

IFocus said:


> I think this line is quite striking from Paula Matthewson
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-17/matthewson-abbott-expectations/5203600



Perhaps he should consider the more than 1000 who drowned in the name of Labor's ideological nonsense.


----------



## noco (19 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> I don't know what to make though of the transgressions into Indonesia's territorial waters. At face value, it looks like a significant operational blunder. With modern navigation such as GPS, one wonders how it could have even been made or risked given the distances involved to get anywhere near Australian territory from Indonesia's 12 nautical mile maritime boundary.
> 
> Of interest though, on the night before the announcement Friday morning, the story broke in The Australian (News Corp). There was nothing I found at that time either from the SMH (Fairfax) or the ABC. That struck me as odd and leave me wondering whether it was deliberately leaked from within the government to News, just prior to the announcement.
> 
> ...




Doc, Operation Sovereign Borders is after all a Military exercise and they may just be setting a trap for the Indnesians to do just that.....observe their fishing boats straying into Australian waters carring human cargo and after all these boats do fly the Indonesian flag....might just be a smart move by the Military.....Then the apology will be on the other foot.


----------



## bellenuit (19 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> What it has done is draw Indonesia into announcing a step up of their own patrols along their southern maritime boundary with the purpose of checking up on what our maritime resources are doing. While they're there, they might also spot a few of their Indonesian crewed fishing boats intent on breaching our sovereignty.




I don't know if that was the intent of the incursion, but it is interesting that Indonesia suddenly is able to come up with a patrol boat to monitor Australian naval activity when for years it said it didn't have enough boats to monitor the illegal traffic in refugees taking place in the same waters.


----------



## sptrawler (19 January 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I don't know if that was the intent of the incursion, but it is interesting that Indonesia suddenly is able to come up with a patrol boat to monitor Australian naval activity when for years it said it didn't have enough boats to monitor the illegal traffic in refugees taking place in the same waters.




Well now the Indonesian patrol boat can give the illegal asylum seekers safe passage back. Then Indonesia will probably charge them for another transit visa.


----------



## drsmith (20 January 2014)

Some media speculation into numbers on turn backs,



> There have been at least five boats, carrying 215 people, turned back from Australia to Indonesia since December 13. One group last Wednesday was returned on a disposable Australian lifeboat.
> 
> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has said there have been no boat arrivals in Australia since December 19.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...rown-says-fellow-fugitive-20140119-312tb.html


----------



## noco (20 January 2014)

If the Indonesians use their heads , the Abbott policy may well be to their advantage. 

IF Tony Abbott's tough stance on boatpeople works and asylum-seekers stop coming to Australia, not only will Australia benefit, but the policy will also help Indonesia. 
The Prime Minister's pre-election promise to turn back the boats appears to be working. In the past month, arrivals at Christmas Island have virtually stopped. During this time, it has now been revealed, about five boats carrying asylum-seekers have been either turned around or towed back into Indonesian waters.

This action has caused outrage among sections of our community and human rights activists; however, the reaction to the Coalition's tough stance is one of overwhelming support.

The Indonesian government's position continues to be one of total opposition to Australia going it alone as it argues for a regional solution with a consultative and co-operative dialogue. Australia's reluctance to embrace this position has -- notwithstanding the spying issue -- created the current tensions between the two countries that have led to the absence from Canberra of a resident Indonesian ambassador for more than eight weeks.

The paradox of this stand-off in the bilateral relationship is that if Abbott's tough stance on boatpeople works in the medium to long term, and asylum-seekers stop coming to Australia by this dangerous route, not only will Australia benefit by then having a far more orderly and fair system of accepting people seeking a new life here, but it will also help Indonesia.

Indonesia probably has up to 10,000 asylum-seekers living illegally, creating problems for them and local residents.

The asylum-seekers are in Indonesia for only one reason: to get to Australia. They have no wish to remain in Indonesia, where life as an illegal entrant can be very difficult. So once people know there is no onward route to Australia via Indonesia as the main transit point, it is almost certain asylum-seekers will stop coming to Indonesia. It is therefore possible for Indonesia and Australia to have strong common ground on the issue of turning back the boats. So why doesn't Indonesia embrace the idea? It's called politics.

In July 2012, I suggested in an opinion piece precisely the concept Abbott has now embraced, but with it being implemented with Indonesia's support. In return for this support, Australia could have contributed to the construction of processing centres in Indonesia so as to avoid asylum-seekers disappearing into the Indonesian community of 240 million people.

To achieve such an outcome would have taken an enormous amount of diplomacy at a time when relations between the two countries were bumpy at best.

The Indonesian government would have considered this option only if it could clearly demonstrate to its people that such an agreement wasn't a case of the region's "deputy sheriff" -- as former US president George W. Bush regrettably referred to Australia -- simply pushing Indonesia around, and that such a program would not only benefit both countries, but would stop the evil people-smuggling trade.

Fast-forward to today when, despite the rhetoric from the Abbott government about "close consultation" and "good relations" between the two countries, the reality is we are essentially going it alone on the boatpeople issue by simply turning or towing back the boats.

It appears to be working despite the revelation that Australia has breached Indonesia's territorial waters in the process.

The question we need to ask, however, is: What is the opportunity cost in terms of our relationship with Indonesia? As our near neighbour enters the volatile and robust national election period -- with political disillusionment sweeping the archipelago like a flood -- we will need to manage the relationship with great care.

Both Indonesia and Australia need each other. Our joint efforts in counter-terrorism have been outstanding; our business-to-business relations, although very underdone, are strong; our co-operation on regional security issues is critical to our security as a small (in terms of population) nation located in the middle of a very large and emerging Asia.

In the next 10 to 15 years, Indonesia will add almost 80 million people to the ranks of the middle class. These people will want to travel and spend money on tourism, and on better food experiences such as Australian beef, for example, as the region has seen with the emergence of the Chinese middle class.

So, in taking such a tough line on turning back the boats, Abbott needs to ensure that he doesn't win the war on boatpeople at the cost of the broader relationship with Indonesia.

The challenge for our diplomats is to demonstrate to the Indonesian leadership how such a tough stance on boatpeople will benefit not only Australia but Indonesia -- and then assist the Indonesian government in convincing its people to embrace such a policy without it being seen as forced upon them by the Coalition government.

At the moment, the sole focus of Abbott and his government is to simply turn back the boats, whatever the cost. And it appears many in our community feel that outcome is, at any cost to the bilateral relationship, worthwhile. Let's hope that when we look back in five years, it will turn out Abbott was right.

Ross Taylor is chairman of the West Australia-based Indonesia Institute


----------



## drsmith (20 January 2014)

No boat arrivals now for a month.

Cheers to all.


----------



## overhang (22 January 2014)

I wasn't sure if I should put this in the ABC thread or this one.
This is what the ABC are running with http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...sed-of-beating-burning-asylum-seekers/5211996
"Asylum seekers have accused the Australian Navy of beating them and inflicting burns by ordering passengers onboard a boat being towed back to Indonesia to hold on to parts of the engine."

The ABC really should be leaving these sort of outrageous claims to the Guardian.


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2014)

overhang said:


> The ABC really should be leaving these sort of outrageous claims to the Guardian.



ABC's AM current affairs also had a piece on this and Human Rights Watch also got a big plug as part of the segment.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3851994.htm

Bob Carr's own words about most boat arrivals being economic refugees has been long forgotten by the ABC. The burns could have been an act of self harm.


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2014)

In the commercial press,

First, Fairfax (SMH),



> Prime Minister Tony Abbott has issued a stern message to the Indonesian President, saying Australia would ''continue to do what we are entitled to do to secure our borders''.
> 
> ''Stopping the boats is a matter of sovereignty and President [Susilo Bambang] Yudhoyono of all people ought to understand ... just how seriously countries take their sovereignty. So we will continue to do what we are entitled to do to secure our borders,'' Mr Abbott said.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...nue-to-secure-our-borders-20140122-317q2.html



> In response to the naval incursion, Indonesia vowed to boost naval patrols to its south, including with an extra frigate, and insisted on its ''right to protect its sovereignty and territorial integrity''.
> 
> But experts and Defence sources have said the close military-to-military ties mean any escalation - of the kind predicted by former prime minister Kevin Rudd last year under an Abbott government's boat turn-back policy - is highly unlikely.
> 
> A greater Indonesian navy presence in the seas south of Java would actually increase their responsibility for patrolling for asylum-seeker vessels heading off from their territory, a Defence source said.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...sed-indonesian-patrolling-20140121-316xs.html

The Australian,



> TONY Abbott has strongly reasserted Australia's right to turn back asylum boats to Indonesia, amid growing tensions with Jakarta over the policy.
> 
> Less than a week after an official apology to Indonesia over border incursions by Australian ships, the Prime Minister declared: "Stopping the boats is a matter of sovereignty.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-with-indonesia/story-fn9hm1gu-1226807420046


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2014)

ABC vs Scott Morrison. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.



> Mr Morrison says the claims are unsubstantiated.
> 
> "The Australian Government is not going to put up with people sledging the Australian Navy with unsubstantiated claims when they have high levels of motivation for spinning stories in order to undermine this government's very successful border protection program," he said.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...lum-seeker-sledging-of-navy-personnel/5212942


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2014)

Indonesia wants joint cooperation now.  



> However, the ABC understands Indonesian police are investigating the allegations.
> 
> Local police from Kupang, where the asylum seekers were taken, say they have statements from the passengers.
> 
> Chief detective Sam Kawengian says the claims warrant investigation and he has invited Australian authorities to travel to Kupang and view the evidence.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...lum-seeker-sledging-of-navy-personnel/5212942


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2014)

Indonesian politician TANTOWI YAHYA on the ABC's 7:30 report.



> LEIGH SALES: You've previously expressed your opposition to Australia's stop the boats policy, but many fewer boats are trying to make their journey to Australia, lives are being spared and people smugglers are losing business. Isn't that evidence that it is a successful policy?
> 
> TANTOWI YAHYA: I say many, many times that the asylum seekers are not Indonesians and they came to our territory without our knowledge and then their intention is going to Australia. So, as a matter of fact we don't have anything - we don't have anything to do with this except for the reasons of humanity. *So when Australian Government comes with the pushback policy or boat return policy, which is very unilateral, for us this policy is hard. I mean, we have to cooperate.* But the sad fact is that we don't have any bilateral cooperations on this issue anymore.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-22/indonesian-mp-criticises-turn-back-policy-after/5213890

My bolds.


----------



## noco (22 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> Indonesian politician TANTOWI YAHYA on the ABC's 7:30 report.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doc, do you think there might be a remote chance the Greens are behind the fabrication of of this slur on the Australian Navy?
I just cannot believe our Navy would subject themselves to doing harm to a asylum seeker....they are not that stupid.....and besides I just could believe the Commanding officer of that Navy ship would condone mistreatment of an asylum seeker...........if they are prepared to sew their lips together, I am sure they would not hesitate to burn thier hands for publicity.


----------



## drsmith (22 January 2014)

noco said:


> Doc, do you think there might be a remote chance the Greens are behind the fabrication of of this slur on the Australian Navy?



There's nothing I've seen to link this particular story to the Greens.

Most likely a rushed attempt by the asylum seekers themselves to sabotage the boat at some point is my guess. The Indonesians are certainly milking it for all it's worth, but that in itself brings about some interesting revelations as per the above ABC 7:30 interview.

Scott Morrison I would suggest has put his faith in briefings he has received from the military as is Tony Abbott.



> "These are just claims without any apparent facts to back them up.
> 
> "I fully support the statement of the minister on this subject and I have complete confidence in the decency, the humanity and the professionalism of Australia's naval and customs personnel, who I commend for a magnificent job. A job which is increasingly effective and successful."
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...donesia-tensions/story-fn3dxix6-1226807459127


----------



## noco (23 January 2014)

It has been alleged that two of the asylum seekers had burt hands when the Navy picked them up. It has yet to be determined how the other 4 sustained their injuries.

The whole event appears to be a fabrication.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-already-burned/story-fn59niix-1226808080730


----------



## Ijustnewit (23 January 2014)

noco said:


> It has been alleged that two of the asylum seekers had burt hands when the Navy picked them up. It has yet to be determined how the other 4 sustained their injuries.
> 
> The whole event appears to be a fabrication.
> 
> ...




Last week on their weekly update General Angus Campbell was asked by the media about claims asylum seekers in custody has sewn their lips together and others were on hunger strikes. His reply was something along the lines it would not be helpful to comment as this puts the matter in the media spotlight thus encouraging others to try similar things. Makes sense to me , and here we have day 4 of the ABC beating up stories of burnt hands .


----------



## noco (23 January 2014)

Ijustnewit said:


> Last week on their weekly update General Angus Campbell was asked by the media about claims asylum seekers in custody has sewn their lips together and others were on hunger strikes. His reply was something along the lines it would not be helpful to comment as this puts the matter in the media spotlight thus encouraging others to try similar things. Makes sense to me , and here we have day 4 of the ABC beating up stories of burnt hands .




On the link below, the topic of discussion by the comments was all about the ABC and there leftist Marxist attitude to the the whole story.

I agree, Abbott and Turbull must take some action to remove this element from the ABC and have the ABC demonstrat a neutral and unbiased political position.  


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/the_deprraved_imagination_of_the_left/


----------



## noco (23 January 2014)

Just maybe the ADF stratgey has worked sooner than expected.

The Indonesians have been drawn out to protect their borders and in doing so may may see first hand how the Australian borders are being violated by Indonesian fishing boats, flying an Indonesian flag with their human cargo.

The Indonesian Navy, then won't be able to deny from their own observations that the Australian border is being intruded by illegal foreigners.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...se-its-firepower/story-fnihslxi-1226808529340


----------



## drsmith (23 January 2014)

noco said:


> Just maybe the ADF stratgey has worked sooner than expected.
> 
> The Indonesians have been drawn out to protect their borders and in doing so may may see first hand how the Australian borders are being violated by Indonesian fishing boats, flying an Indonesian flag with their human cargo.
> 
> The Indonesian Navy, then won't be able to deny from their own observations that the Australian border is being intruded by illegal foreigners.




The public nonsense coming from Indonesia is now bordering on the hysterical.



> A number of Indonesian Navy warships have been deployed and four Air Force defense radars have been programmed to closely monitor the southern border, military officials told The Jakarta Post on Wednesday.
> 
> “We are watching four radars in Timika, Merauke [in Papua], Saumlaki [Maluku] and Buraen [East Nusa Tenggara], which all face Australia,” Air Force chief spokesman Air Commodore Hadi Tjahjanto said.
> 
> *“If we notice any border violations, our air base in Makassar will be ready. Australia is reachable from there.” *Hadi was referring to the Sultan Hasanuddin Air Force Base in the South Sulawesi provincial capital, which is the base of the 11th squadron, consisting of 16 Russian-made Sukhoi Su-27/30 Flankers.




http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/01/23/tension-with-oz-escalates-ri-deploys-warships.html

Interestingly, there's been no media reports of fresh turn backs for several days that I've seen. Tomorrow OSB operational update will be interesting in that context.

My bolds.


----------



## noco (24 January 2014)

I believe it is high time the Abbott Governmenr took a firm stance against the ABC and their reporting...they are certainly not abiding by their charter of operations.....time to start some sackings from the top. 

By the time the Navy arrived at the boat in question the engine was stone cold....I do hope the Navy can come up with some video footage of some sort to prove the ABC wrong.....I understand that video recordings are now being made upon interception.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...use-doubts-mount/story-fn9hm1gu-1226809096645


----------



## sails (24 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> The public nonsense coming from Indonesia is now bordering on the hysterical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Let's hope Indonesia are just as proactive with Indonesian boats trying to illegally cross into Australian waters.


----------



## bigdog (24 January 2014)

http://pickeringpost.com/story/say-goodbye-to-sby/2593

SAY GOODBYE TO SBY (two weeks old article by Pickering Post)

Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, is playing a clever game of illegal boat chess while Bill Shorten is the boy looking on without a clue how each man moves. This is how the game is panning out and the Indonesian Government doesn’t even know, or care, that a chess game is going on.

There is always an element of respect between militaries, in third world nations they are often the only constant, and Abbott engaged our military to operate on a diplomatic level for good reasons. 

The Abbott Government has allowed itself to remain at arms length from covert military negotiations, at least publicly, and the Indonesian Government can safely be frozen out of the decision-making process... and here’s why:

On April 9, Indonesia holds its general election and SBY’s Democrats, many of whom are in jail over graft, bribery and corruption charges, are unlikely to be returned leaving SBY as an administrative lame-duck President until the July 9 Presidential elections when, after the conclusion of his three terms and in a worsening economy, he must resign anyway.

(It’s ironic that half of Abbott’s obstructionist Senate gets the boot at the same time.)

Indonesian election rules require a party, or a coalition, to hold at least 20 percent of the seats or win at least 25 percent of the vote in the April legislative election to qualify to nominate a Presidential candidate. 

SBY’s party may not even qualify as its polls dive and candidates are forced to pay their own election expenses because the Democrats have only been able to raise a war chest of the equivalent of $A4mil in rupiah.

So, not only is the current Government unlikely to win the April 9 legislative election but may not attract sufficient votes to allow it to even field a Presidential candidate later in the year.

SBY is now toying with nominating for Vice President and that’s a desperate move that can’t succeed.

Tony Abbott has done something Bill Shorten and co. could never have conceived of and, judging by their howls of criticism over a lack of information, don’t even understand now.

Trying to conduct illegal boat diplomacy against a backdrop of a ruling Party in survival mode is pointless and has resulted in no more than an Indonesian Government “tough talking” to its diminishing constituents. 

They clearly don’t know, or even care, what is going on as the military once again dons the cloak of an interim Government. 

The boats are being turned back, as Abbott said they would be, and much to the surprise of Shorten, Hanson-Young and SBY’s ministers. 

The extent to which military palms have been greased will never be known, but there is no doubt they have been, using funds excised from the aid budget.

    We are witnessing an Abbott Government masterstroke overseen by Morrison. 

Abbott and Morrison quickly realised the Indonesian Government was in a state of flux and the military the only political constant. For SBY to have a barney with his military now would be bloody suicide and our, and their, military understands that.

With as much humility as I can muster, Pickering Post has been saying since early last year that Kevin Rudd’s boat disaster will only be resolved through the military with money saved from potential future costs... $14 billion so far, and as I said in a previous post, “five per cent of that goes a long way in the military brass”.

Bill Shorten needs to learn to play chess. SH-Y needs to stop playing with herself and either way it’s checkmate SBY!


----------



## overhang (24 January 2014)

The Navy have gone too far this time, forcing number 1 tennis player Rafael Nadal to hold the exhaust pipe.






Apologies to those with weak stomachs.


----------



## noco (25 January 2014)

It is very obvious, Abbotts policy of turning back the boats has worked and whilst Indonesia won't admit it, it has assted them in eliminating the problems of transit illegals in that country.

The muscles being exercised by several high ranking Indoneasians is politically induced with the pending elections in that country.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-abbott-on-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226810102761


----------



## drsmith (25 January 2014)

*Operation Sovereign Borders update Friday January 24:*

No boat arrivals in the past week. Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 is unchanged over the past week at 139.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases/operational-update-24-january
http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...orders-report-confirms-36-days-without-a-boat

*Summary of arrivals since this government was elected:*

08/09/2013 to 18/09/2013 (caretaker period prior to swearing in): 475 passengers on 7 boats.
Remainder of the week to Monday 23/09/2013: 31 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Monday 30/09/2013: 95 passengers on 3 boats.
Remainder of the week to Friday 04/10/2013: 79 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 11/10/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 18/10/2013: 173 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 25/10/2013: 166 passengers on 2 boats.
Two weeks to Friday 8/11/2013: No boats.
Week to Friday 15/11/2013: 163 passengers on 3 boats.
Week to Friday 22/11/2013: 35 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 29/11/2013: 9 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 6/12/2013: 189 passengers on 4 boats.
Week to Friday 13/12/2013: 3 passengers on 1 boat.
Week to Friday 20/12/2013: 167 passengers on 2 boats.
Five weeks to Friday 24/01/2014: No boats.

*Totals since the commencement of Operation Sovereign Borders:* 

1110 passengers on 22 boats over 18 weeks.

*Media summary on turn backs:*

205 aboard 5 boats (Fairfax). The detail I assume is asylum seeker accounts. 

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/fed...may-not-get-clear-verdict-20140124-31e9c.html

I did see another press report a while ago about another two boats that left Indonesia but returned due to bad weather.


----------



## IFocus (25 January 2014)

bigdog said:


> http://pickeringpost.com/story/say-goodbye-to-sby/2593
> 
> SAY GOODBYE TO SBY (two weeks old article by Pickering Post)
> 
> ...






Typical dimwitted red neck misunderstand standing on Indonesia's political environment.

Hint SBY losing is really bad for Australia


----------



## sptrawler (25 January 2014)

IFocus said:


> Typical dimwitted red neck misunderstand standing on Indonesia's political environment.
> 
> Hint SBY losing is really bad for Australia




As far as I know it isn't a case of SBY losing. 

He has to stand down, after two five year terms in office.


----------



## noco (25 January 2014)

sptrawler said:


> As far as I know it isn't a case of SBY losing.
> 
> He has to stand down, after two five year terms in office.




But apparantly he can stand for Vice President.


----------



## IFocus (25 January 2014)

sptrawler said:


> As far as I know it isn't a case of SBY losing.
> 
> He has to stand down, after two five year terms in office.




Thanks my mistake, Governor Jokowi is the likely winner a true Javanese and wont be any thing as pro Australian as SBY.


----------



## noco (27 January 2014)

Australia has put out a sprat to catch a mackrel (Indonesia).

If Indonesia objects to Australian Navy vessels from entering Indonesian waters, it is now up to Indonesia to go to the rescue of illegal fishing boats in Indonesian waters with their human cargo when trouble occurs with engine faults or boats flandering in heavy seas. If there are drowning because Indonesia did not go th their aid, then, blood will be on the hands of the Indonesians  and not Australia owing to the fact the Australia would be infringing on Indonesain sovreignty....If Indonesian Naval ships are patrolling in the southern waters of Indonesia, they will by compulsion have no alternative but to go to their aid.

Smart move by Australia to draw out the Indo Navy and Air force. 

I think the Indos are only half smart.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-responsibility/story-fn558imw-1226810859713


----------



## noco (27 January 2014)

The ABC has goofed again with unsubstantiated reporting.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...heraldsun/comments/so_where_is_the_abcs_twin/


----------



## dutchie (28 January 2014)

Now that Indonesia has patrol boats in the area (nice work TA) every time a boat leaves their shores they should get an anonymous tip off that the boat is sinking and needs help.

Result - Indonesian navy to the rescue and returns boat to the nearest port - Indonesia!

Problem solved!


----------



## trainspotter (28 January 2014)

IFocus said:


> Thanks my mistake, Governor Jokowi is the likely winner a true Javanese and wont be any thing as pro Australian as SBY.




Errrrrrmmmmmmmm he has not been nominated by his party as yet !! He is also on the record as saying he is not interested until his term of Governor of Jakarta has expired. If he was to run he would be representing the DEMOCRATIC party (how is that bad for Australia again?) SBY has not exactly been Australian friendly 

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/01/28/a-jokowi-bid-could-change-political-landscape.html

Maybe you might want to do a bit more research next time IFocus


----------



## DB008 (30 January 2014)

Hmm...Norway. Makes sense.




> *Record number of foreigners deported*
> 
> Some 5,198 foreign citizens were expelled from the country in 2013, an increase of 31 percent since 2012, when 3,958 people were deported.
> 
> ...




http://www.thelocal.no/20140127/record-number-of-foreigners-deported-by-police


----------



## drsmith (31 January 2014)

The evolving story of those burns,



> TWO Somalis at the centre of grave allegations against the Australian navy in recent turn-back operations admit their burns were sustained during clashes with the sailors, who in one case had been forced to prevent asylum-seekers scuttling their boat.
> 
> The ABC last week reported claims by asylum-seekers that they were "beaten" by navy personnel "and told to hold on to parts of a hot engine on a boat being towed back to Indonesia".
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tories-revealed/story-fn9hm1gu-1226814426441#

Meanwhile, Scott Morrison will appear at a Labor/Greens-dominated Senate inquiry in Canberra today to defend the government's Operation Sovereign Borders policy. 

Today's OSB operational update is looking like it will be no boats over the past week.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...olicy-offensive/story-fn9hm1gu-1226814437544#


----------



## drsmith (31 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> Meanwhile, Scott Morrison will appear at a Labor/Greens-dominated Senate inquiry in Canberra today to defend the government's Operation Sovereign Borders policy.



This should make for interesting viewing.

http://www.aph.gov.au/news_and_events/watch_parliament

Scott Morrison vs SHY at 1pm EST.

I think it's the top one. SHY is already there, claws sharpened no doubt.


----------



## bellenuit (31 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> This should make for interesting viewing.
> 
> http://www.aph.gov.au/news_and_events/watch_parliament
> 
> ...




I watched most of it. Morrison did a great job and he and his team made SHY in particular but also Carr and Ludwig look like amateurs.


----------



## noco (31 January 2014)

drsmith said:


> The evolving story of those burns,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doc, I watched some of the senate committee enquiry and I could not believe the gimcrack questions coming out of the mouths of Carr and Hanson-Young.....They were asking question for the sake of asking questions which had no punch whatsoever......They were all at SEA, pardon the pun, and they tried all they could to discredit the OSP......Labor and the Greens must be furious that there has been no boat arrivals for 43 days.


----------



## Julia (31 January 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I watched most of it. Morrison did a great job and he and his team made SHY in particular but also Carr and Ludwig look like amateurs.



Not to mention how extraordinarily rude Senator Carr managed to be.  Good for Scott Morrison.
It won't, however, stop the whining from the Left.


----------



## AAA (31 January 2014)

I watched most of it. Thought that Scott Morrison excelled. I can't believe the fuss labor and green are making about the control of information policy adopted by the government. Surely they should be relieved that the mass drownings have abated. 

I guess that this is the only area they can attack what is proving to be a very effective policy.


----------



## drsmith (1 February 2014)

A detailed media story on a turn back using one of the recently purchased bright orange lifeboats.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...lum-seeker-boats/story-fni0xqrb-1226815340238

Most encouraging is this,



> Australia is also being assisted indirectly by Indonesia, who despite the current political difficulties is staging its own crackdown.
> 
> An Indonesian intelligence source said agents were flooding known smuggling hot spots looking to break the industry from the inside by exposing military and police known to assist smugglers moving people to the coast and onto the boats.
> 
> "The belief is that many individuals in the military and police are involved," said the intelligence officer. "They are getting much more attention now. They are putting kuching (meaning cats, or spies) everywhere. If there is good control, the problem with Australia will stop."




Friday's OSP operational update confirmed no boats over the past week. It's now been 6-weeks without a boat arrival. Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 has increased by 2 over the past week to a total of 141.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases/operational-update-31-january


----------



## drsmith (1 February 2014)

The above is perhaps something Fairfax's Mark Kenny should have read before publishing his piece on yesterday's Senate hearings.



> There is no doubt that the Indonesian relationship is being sacrificed in order to break the people-smuggling trade.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...tion-in-the-face-of-anger-20140131-31szj.html


----------



## Chris45 (1 February 2014)

Julia said:


> Not to mention how extraordinarily rude Senator Carr managed to be.  Good for Scott Morrison.



My sentiments also. Shouting and finger wagging ... what an arrogant and incompetent half-wit he is. Morrison's self-control was beautiful to watch.

Labor created the problem, now they can't handle the fact that the govt. is fixing it.

Those orange lifeboats are shaping up as a stroke of genius. The illegals can't scuttle them like they do with the fishing boats and the Indos end up with excellent vessels they can use as patrol boats.


----------



## orr (1 February 2014)

From some one who was there.
If the 'tub thumpers'  care not to read it, I'd hardly be suprised

--------------------------------------
Lauren Smith saw the Department of Immigration’s handling of asylum seeker cases from the inside. Now free from the bureaucracy, she wonders whether she should have spoken up.


"Why did ordinary men participate in the killing process during the Holocaust? This essay question in a university subject put me on the path that I am on today. I have travelled the world analysing the behaviour of people involved in war.

People react differently to war. A range of emotions take over:  anger, pain, grief, loss, sadness, frustration and denial. But in every person I have seen fear. Then I have heard blame: someone else is responsible for these killings.

Usually, the people I am talking to do not feel responsible, including the perpetrators. People on all sides believe they are “the goodies” and that their actions were justified: the perpetrators, the victims, the bystanders.

And I was the same when confronted with being involved in the war on refugees. Believing I was doing a “good” job helping support people escaping war, I took work with the protection visa section of the Department of Immigration. I was providing administrative support to people determining who was a “genuine” refugee and who was not. Our team was determining which “boat people” could stay in the safety of Australia and who would be returned.

Shortly after joining this section I realised that the Australian government and some of my colleagues were seriously endangering innocent people by returning them to unsafe countries.

Throughout all of this I convinced myself that it was not my fault, I wanted to do good things but couldn’t. I blamed everyone else — I blamed the government, I blamed the officers. I blamed the Australian public for electing the government.

In May 2013, I went to Christmas Island; an experience that began to unravel my comforting alibis. I began to understand my participation in these callous and life threatening processes. I was there to organise screening interviews for Sri Lankan clients. Many of these clients were poor fisherman, coming to Australia as they would die of starvation if they stayed in Sri Lanka.

As they were viewed as “economic refugees”, the government saw an opportunity to send a strong message: they were not wanted in Australia. A secret process was created: enhanced screening. This denied these asylum seekers access to legal representation and proper protection during interviews. The aim was simply to send them back as quickly as possible. Sri Lanka is one of few countries to which Australia has the right to forcibly return asylum seekers. This opportunity was seized, ignoring much evidence that, for these asylum seekers, a return to Sri Lanka could imperil their lives.

In the north of Sri Lanka, there is still mass corruption and discrimination. This is affecting people’s livelihoods and starving desperate fisherman. These “economic refugees” are still imperilled by war’s prejudicial aftermath. I saw starving mothers holding newborn babies come off these boats. No matter what anyone says, there must be very serious reasons why they had risked their lives and the lives of their children to come to Australia. Their starvation was directly linked to the political climate of their country. However, Australia refuses to recognise this as a valid reason to claim refuge. So we returned these people, very possibly to die.

For a while I continued to delude myself that this wasn’t my fault. I didn’t make these decisions, the protection visa officers did. These people, these Sri Lankans, chose to take this journey. They understood the risk. And if they didn’t understand, the “people smuggler” did. The people smugglers were surely to blame.

However, the day I returned from Christmas Island I was told 28 life jackets had washed up on the shores of Cocos Island, an Australian island. Some 28 Iranian refugees had been killed in Australian waters.

I was devastated to learn this, but I begun to put together the pieces of the puzzle. For a week while I was on Christmas Island, I had been waiting for that boat to arrive on shore, so we could assess their claims for asylum. Hearing the news they had died sent me into a state of shock. I realised it was not the dangerous journey or the people smugglers that had killed these people, it was we Australians.

“We knew for a week they were close to our shores, we were constantly monitoring them, and we let them die.”
We knew for a week they were close to our shores, we were constantly monitoring them, and we let them die. We knew they were in trouble, and we chose not to save them. Furthermore, this was published in the newspaper, and Australian citizens just ignored the fact that our government believed it had the right to choose who lives or dies.

As I grappled with the seriousness of the situation, I had to ask myself some tough questions. Could I justify continuing to work for this department? I finally realised that although my intentions were good, my involvement had implicated me in these deaths.

Ultimately, I chose to leave the department rather than to continue to implement policies that: sent people back to their homelands risking their death; allowed people to drown in Australian and Indonesian waters; and detained people indefinitely in harsh conditions, with limited access to water, food and medical treatment. Unequivocally, we Australians are causing severe mental and physical harm to fellow human beings.

In the American justice system, if you witness a crime and do nothing to try and stop it, you are guilty by association. However, Australians do not have this obligation. This perplexes me, as the legal system should be a reflection of our morals and values. Protecting the vulnerable in society should not be choice but a moral obligation. In the end, if you do not help save someone’s life, you are, in some measure, responsible for their death.

Amid all the proud flag-waving this Australia Day weekend, I was unable to raise my flag. I did not feel comfortable celebrating the current pain Australia is causing other human beings and I know I was not alone.

Many Australians cannot frankly face the implications of our governments’ policies that deny others’ human rights and terrorise vulnerable people seeking our help. But we pretend we are not involved, that we do not know what is happening or we deny responsibility.

Every Sunday, Catholics like Tony Abbot attend church to remember Jesus’ life and his struggle to spread peace and stop unnecessary suffering. On Anzac Day we remember all those who have died at war and we say “lest we forget”. However, we appear to have forgotten what it means — that we should not forget the past: that people have died in many wars to help bring peace.

We can remember our past and learn from it, we can remember our journeys and celebrate our achievements. And, living in the present, we can forgive past mistakes and commit to not repeat them. When we see a problem we should try to resolve it quickly so it does not escalate into a crisis and harm us or others.

A civilisation is judged by how it treats the most vulnerable. I fear Australia has been found guilty of crimes against humanity, and no one seems able to talk about it, to reflect on what is being done.

If someone is in trouble it is our responsibility to help them out. We should not let people drown at sea; we should bring them safely to our shores. Once here, they should not be left to languish in interminable limbo, but helped to get on with their lives and to contribute meaningfully to Australia, like so many migrants who have come before them."
------------------------------------------------------

Written By ex-imagration  officer Lauren Smith.
Everything Morrison is up to is about de-humanising asylum seekers, the less you see the less you know the less you care, and that plays well to many australians as evidenced by many posters to this thread.


----------



## noco (1 February 2014)

Orr, in reply to ex Immigration officer Lauren Smith.

I can only agree with her sentiments and emotions pertaining to certain refugees but it must be remembered Australia has a relatively small population with limited resources to be able to provide for refugees......There are millions who would like to come to Australia and we Australians do provide for a certain quota each year and it must be carried out in an orderly and systematic fashion in keeping to what we can provide and afford......Those who are que jumping on illegal boats are not worthy of the privileges we provide especially when their ID's are destroyed before arriving on our shores..

I am sure, we Australians would all agree, preference should be given to those who are legitimate arrivals with the correct documentation, those who have a reasonalbe undertsanding of the English language, those who could be gainfully employed, those who are willing to settle in less populated areas and not in major city ghettos and above all those who are not religious fanactics who are hell bent on imposing their beliefs on our community.....They should be prepared to accept out way of life in their adopted country and if they can't, then they should return to their country of origin....We certainly don't need refugees who are willing to accept welfare handouts for the rest of their lives and so be a burden to the Auatralian tax payers.....we should have the choice as to who would be suitable and willing to work and dovetail into our community. 

We don't need a repeat of what is happening in France and the UK where we have Muslims closing off streets so they can show their strength by praying 5 times a day....these are not the type of refugees we need here in Australia. 

I am sorry....but that is the way I feel.


----------



## drsmith (1 February 2014)

My reply to ex Immigration officer Lauren Smith is far simpler.

The foundation of any immigration program is that the country of destination is in control and is thus orderly. Other aspects such as numbers and skilled vs humanitarian can then be built on that. 

Immigration by illegal people smuggling operations does not satisfy that basic requirement and the mentioning of the holocaust at the beginning of the article doesn't change that.


----------



## orr (2 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> My reply to ex Immigration officer Lauren Smith is far simpler.
> 
> The foundation of any immigration program is that the country of destination is in control and is thus orderly. Other aspects such as numbers and skilled vs humanitarian can then be built on that.
> 
> Immigration by illegal people smuggling operations does not satisfy that basic requirement and the mentioning of the holocaust at the beginning of the article doesn't change that.





Sorry Doc when people are fleeing terror you might just expect things to be a 'little disorderly', I know I would be.
As reported on the ABC's 11pm02/02/2014 radio  national news, A Sri Lankan Journalist has been murdered( Multiple Knife wounds)... more details to follow... Maybe Andrew Bolt would swollow the Sri Lankan Governmet line of 'domestic tiff', as no doubt will you. 

My preference would of been that more pertinence was  put on the 'Nuremberg defence' in Ms Smiths article, as opposed to  any to the  reference  'holocaust ' .
Some times  People just have to stand up; Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson actions during the 'Mia Lia Massacre'  are one such example.
And noco,  yeh there's a lot of'em, and whilst governments play lick spittle to regimes that create them there'll only ever be more...


----------



## drsmith (3 February 2014)

orr said:


> Sorry Doc when people are fleeing terror you might just expect things to be a 'little disorderly', I know I would be.



Over 50,000 boat arrivals, a $12bn cost and counting and over 1,000 deaths at sea not disorderly enough ?

And that from a government who near the end of their 6-year ideological bender conceded this,



> BOB CARR: They're coming from majority religious or ethnic groups in the countries their fleeing, they're coming here as economic migrants.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-26/senior-labor-figures-comment-on-leadership-change/4784010

Consider for a moment how many of those 1,000 might still be alive today had the previous Rudd/Gillard not gone down the path they did.

As a matter of basic principal, human civilisation has grown through order, not disorder.


----------



## Calliope (3 February 2014)

orr said:


> Sorry Doc when people are fleeing terror you might just expect things to be a 'little disorderly', I know I would be.




What "terror" were they fleeing from in Indonesia?


----------



## drsmith (3 February 2014)

The Refugee Review Tribunal needs a clean out,



> A Bangladeshi woman with a violent husband has won asylum in Australia, despite a tribunal's suspicion that she "fabricated" evidence.
> 
> The Refugee Review Tribunal ruled the woman had a "well-founded fear of persecution" in Bangladesh because she was female and vulnerable to domestic violence.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-asylum-granted/story-fn9hm1gu-1226815334475#


----------



## drsmith (3 February 2014)

In an update on turn backs, Fairfax reports that it's now up to 10 boats.



> It is understood that as part of the Coalition government's Operation Sovereign Borders policy the Royal Australian Navy and Border Patrol officials have turned back or performed tow-backs on up to 10 boats that have entered Australian territorial waters since December.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...oats-says-people-smuggler-20140203-31wjk.html


----------



## drsmith (5 February 2014)

Interesting piece today in The West Australian.

It looks like another one of those orange lifeboats have been put into service.



> People smugglers are struggling to fill vessels despite offering big discounts to asylum seekers as the Federal Government's policy on boats appears to be working as it intended.
> 
> The West Australian  has been told a boat recently intercepted by Border Protection Command had only 35 people aboard when normally it would have been crammed with two or three times that number.
> 
> ...




http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/


----------



## drsmith (6 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Interesting piece today in The West Australian.
> 
> It looks like another one of those orange lifeboats have been put into service.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/




From the above article,



> The West Australian has been told a boat recently intercepted by Border Protection Command had only 35 people aboard when normally it would have been crammed with two or three times that number.
> 
> And in a clear sign Indonesian-based criminals are having difficulties finding willing passengers, the 35 people were sourced by nine separate smuggling syndicates.



An orange life boat has turned up on the coast of Java last night carrying 34. Two resisted and were not transferred to the life boat.

Could they be these two ?



> Earlier this week Mr Morrison told an Australian newspaper that two asylum seekers were transferred for medical treatment, one of them for a heart condition.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...ylum-seekers-lands-on-indonesia-coast/5243990

The next OSB operational update is due tomorrow.


----------



## drsmith (7 February 2014)

Chris Bowen and SHY whinge about the latest orange lifeboat turning up on the shores of Java while the asylum tide turns in SE Asia.



> Malaysian officials revealed the Maritime Enforcement Agency has for the first time intercepted boat people returning from Indonesia to Malaysia across the Malacca Straits because they could not get to Australia.
> 
> The official in charge of Malaysia's operations described it as a complete "reversal" of the people smuggling trade, claiming it was a direct result of Australia's Operation Sovereign Borders. "I would definitely say so, there is a change of patterns now … a reverse movement of people," director-general of the MMEA Admiral Mohd Amdan Kurish told The Daily Telegraph.
> 
> "Recently when we had our operation last month where we have a reverse movement of people … we intercepted 27 people, Bangladeshi, who would normally move out of the country, *Malaysia, to go to Australia.




http://www.news.com.au/national/the...olicy-is-working/story-fncynjr2-1226820087354


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## sptrawler (7 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Chris Bowen and SHY whinge about the latest orange lifeboat turning up on the shores of Java while the asylum tide turns in SE Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/the...olicy-is-working/story-fncynjr2-1226820087354




The more they whinge, the more foolish they look.

It is actually becoming a bit embarrassing, for Labor the more they take exception to Abbotts tactics, the more they show how inept and grovelling they were.

It is actually showing through on most fronts at the moment, Shortens rescue promise for Holden, looked stupid.

Wong jumping in on the SPC band wagon, so early in the unfolding of the events. 
IMO it appeared unbelievably premature and reminded me of the hastie decisions,they made when in office.

I don't think Abbott has anything to worry about, at this point Labor are looking extremely average. 
It's a shame Martin Ferguson left and Bowen isn't performing as well as I hoped he would.
"Showbag Bill' is performing as expected.lol


----------



## noco (10 February 2014)

Shhhhhhhhhh......the silence from the Labor Paty and the Greens is deafening......no boats....no ammo left.....all done and dusted......Illegal boat arrivals is now history.......detention centres closing......Billions of dollars saved....All we have to do is get rid of the dregs


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## drsmith (10 February 2014)

noco said:


> Shhhhhhhhhh......the silence from the Labor Paty and the Greens is deafening......no boats....no ammo left.....all done and dusted......Illegal boat arrivals is now history.......detention centres closing......Billions of dollars saved....All we have to do is get rid of the dregs



Last Friday's OSB report seem to have gone under the radar. 2 arrivals from no boats. I hope they're not now swimming the distance.  

There is this further article on the 2'nd lifeboat,

http://www.news.com.au/national/sec...overeign-borders/story-fncynjr2-1226820329256



> Attempts to sabotage the lifeboats will also likely fail. Even if a hole is punched in the hull and the lifeboat takes water, it is designed to remain buoyant.
> 
> The boats are fitted with enclosed tamper-proof engines that cannot be accessed or refuelled at sea without the right equipment.




IIRC, someone on this thread said they were a stroke of genius.


----------



## noco (11 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Last Friday's OSB report seem to have gone under the radar. 2 arrivals from no boats. I hope they're not now swimming the distance.
> 
> There is this further article on the 2'nd lifeboat,
> 
> ...




They might have been women breast strokers.


----------



## noco (11 February 2014)

There was a  couple of idiots on Q & A tonight calling for an investigation into a couple of assylum seekers with burnt hands blaming the navy.

Not a word from those same idiots relating to over 1000 deaths at sea caused by Rudd and Gillard.

What is a couple of bunrt hands in comparison to the number deaths at sea?


----------



## sails (11 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Last Friday's OSB report seem to have gone under the radar. 2 arrivals from no boats. I hope they're not now swimming the distance.
> 
> There is this further article on the 2'nd lifeboat,
> 
> ...





I heard somewhere that the two who came were found to be in need of urgent medical assistance and were on one of the boats that were turned back. I have no link - hearsay only!


----------



## drsmith (14 February 2014)

sails said:


> I heard somewhere that the two who came were found to be in need of urgent medical assistance and were on one of the boats that were turned back. I have no link - hearsay only!



Urgent medical attention according to OSB, resistance to being put on the orange lifeboat according to those who were returned to Java in above lifeboat. 

The original boat I suspect was the one organised by multiple syndicates as reported in the West Australian. The numbers approximately match. 

The trade I suspect now has had its back broken and the government is starting to make inroads on the mess left behind. 



> Nine illegal maritime arrival transferees were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre””two to Iraq and seven to Iran.
> 
> Ten illegal maritime arrival detainees were voluntarily removed””five to Iran, three to India and two to Lebanon.
> 
> Two illegal maritime arrival detainees were involuntarily removed””one to Pakistan and one to Sri Lanka. Their removal from Australia is consistent with Australia’s obligations.




http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...eign-borders-joint-agency-task-force-update-6

No boats in the past week.


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## Chris45 (15 February 2014)

Marty Natalegawa doesn't seem to appreciate our generous gift of colourful brand new boats in return for the decrepit old ones he sends us. Honestly, there's just no pleasing some people! 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...escalation-of-boat-policy-20140214-32qcf.html


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## drsmith (15 February 2014)

Chris45 said:


> Marty Natalegawa doesn't seem to appreciate our generous gift of colourful brand new boats in return for the decrepit old ones he sends us. Honestly, there's just no pleasing some people!
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...escalation-of-boat-policy-20140214-32qcf.html



The problem now appears to be largely solved so I suspect this is just a whinge for Indonesian domestic political purposes.


----------



## drsmith (15 February 2014)

The guy behind I think is relieved he's not on the receiving end of the stare.


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## drsmith (17 February 2014)

Scott Morrison's had a busy weekend, first an appearance on the ABC's insiders and then today's presser regarding the Manus Island disturbance last night.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2013/s3945746.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...s-escaped-from-manus-detention-centre/5264638

With regard to the Insiders segment, I don't recall any discussion on boat arrivals from the panel in the time that followed that interview.


----------



## drsmith (18 February 2014)

There's been a second disturbance at the Manus Island facility with one asylum seeker dead and 77 injured.

Two of the injured, one critical (fractured skull) and one serious (gun shot wound to the buttocks), will be transferred to Australia for treatment.


----------



## Calliope (18 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> There's been a second disturbance at the Manus Island facility with one asylum seeker dead and 77 injured.
> 
> Two of the injured, one critical (fractured skull) and one serious (gun shot wound to the buttocks), will be transferred to Australia for treatment.







WOW! Half a billion bucks per detainee. THAT'S BIG BUCKS!!!


----------



## drsmith (18 February 2014)

Calliope said:


> WOW! Half a million bucks per detainee. THAT'S BIG BUCKS!!!



That's perhaps why Labor had not budgeted for its funding beyond January.

The flow of boats may be stopped, but the mess left behind still has to be cleaned up.


----------



## Chris45 (18 February 2014)

Calliope said:


> WOW! Half a billion bucks per detainee. THAT'S BIG BUCKS!!!



Our tax dollars at work. 

Let's buy some more of those beautiful luxuriously comfortable air-conditioned orange lifeboats and ship them all back to the country from whence they came ... INDONESIA.


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## noco (18 February 2014)

Chris45 said:


> Our tax dollars at work.
> 
> Let's buy some more of those beautiful luxuriously comfortable air-conditioned orange lifeboats and ship them all back to the country from whence they came ... INDONESIA.




One of the things that still baffles me to this day is why Rudd/Gillard opened the flood gates to these illegals in 2008 in the first place..

We all know why in 2013 the Labor Party went back to the Pacific solution and did that botched up deal with PNG, was for political reason to catch votes and give the impression they were intent on solving a problem they created. 

Why doesn't the current Australian Government ship those Manus Island rioters straight back to where they came from? That will save us $500,000 per year for each on.


----------



## overhang (18 February 2014)

Calliope said:


> WOW! Half a billion bucks per detainee. THAT'S BIG BUCKS!!!




500k and we can only give them 500ml of water a day, would it be 1 million to to give them 1L?


----------



## Chris45 (19 February 2014)

noco said:


> One of the things that still baffles me to this day is why Rudd/Gillard opened the flood gates to these illegals in 2008 in the first place..



Wasn't it pressure from that bunch of idiots who insisted that we could fix the world's climate change problem by introducing the world's biggest carbon tax, and then solve the world's refugee problem by encouraging them all to come here so we could shower them with our compassion and love?

I seem to remember some stupid woman saying that we were a big country with a big heart and we could solve all of these problems for the world.


----------



## DB008 (19 February 2014)

Wednesday February 19, 2014

Ben Fordham (2GB) has Immigration Minister, Scott Morrison, in the studio to talk about the Manus Island protests that have claimed the life of an Iranian refugee.

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/31931#.UwRtd3eSxR0


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2014)

Indonesian border incursion report, Manus riots and asylum seeker information release summary,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...o-slow-indonesian-relationship-hurley/5271222

Scott Morrison on the ABC,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...ott-morrison-speaks-with-greg-jennett/5272292

We've now got to 9-weeks without a successful boat venture arriving in Australia.


----------



## drsmith (21 February 2014)

Malaysia solution Abbott government style has so much more going for it than the former Labor government's version.



> BOATLOADS of asylum-seekers who have failed to make it to Australia are being intercepted trying to return to Malaysia from Indonesia, says the head of Malaysia’s border command.
> 
> Mohd Amdan Kurish, director-general of the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency, said Australia’s crackdown on boatpeople was having a dramatic impact further up the people-smuggling chain, in Malaysia.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...urn-to-malaysia/story-fn9hm1gu-1226833250633#


----------



## Chris45 (21 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Malaysia solution Abbott government style has so much more going for it than the former Labor government's version.





> Indonesia remained concerned about thwarted asylum-seekers “stacking up” in the country.
> 
> Agus Barnas, the spokesman for Politics Security and Law Co-ordinating Minister Djoko Suyanto, acknowledged the UNHCR Indonesia figures showed a reduction in asylum-seeker arrivals.
> 
> ...



Never mind the problems they cause us!!!
Those Indonesians are unbelievable!

I wonder how dear Marty's little chat with John Kerry went?


----------



## drsmith (21 February 2014)

Chris45 said:


> I wonder how dear Marty's little chat with John Kerry went?




Something like the following I would suggest,

_Marty: We're only jumping up and down for domestic political purposes in an election year.
John: I figured that._

Still, they complain too much as you've highlighted above.

Also of interest today is this article on the recent Manus riots,

http://www.news.com.au/national/sho...island-bloodbath/story-fncynjr2-1226833207973

Of particular interest is this,



> G4S will cease providing security at the detention centre within a month, after the Abbott Government failed to renew its contract — though this was decided prior to the recent riots.




G4S's contract to provide services to the Manus facility dates back to the previous Labor government.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/155097545/Manus-Island-detention-facility-contract

The asylum seeker who is deceased as a result of this week's riots on Manus Island arrived on Xmas Island on July 24 2013 and was transferred to Manus on August 27.

Today's OSB update confirms another week with no boats. During the past week, 7 IMA's from offshore processing centres (Manus Island) volunteered to return home taking this total to 158 since the commencement of OSB. The past 9 weeks has seen no boats arriving and only 2 IMA's transferred to Australia in that period.


----------



## rumpole (21 February 2014)

The deceased asylum seeker was of Iranian descent. As far as I know there is no war there. Sure, it's not a nice place to live, but so are a lot of other places. You have to draw the line somewhere.


----------



## banco (22 February 2014)

Smells like children overboard:

Australian security staff will be investigated over their role in the Manus Island detention centre riot that left one man dead and scores injured, Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has conceded.

In an extraordinary statement issued late last night, Mr Morrison admitted that much of the information he had given to the Australian public since Monday’s riot was now in doubt.

The most explosive admission is the revelation that most of the violence probably took place within the detention centre's fences, rather than outside its boundaries, as Mr Morrison had previously claimed.

“I wish to confirm that, contrary to initial reports received, I have received further information that indicates that the majority of the riotous behaviour that occurred, and the response to that behaviour to restore order to the centre, took place within the perimeter of the centre,” the minister said in the statement.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...t-was-wrong-20140222-339hs.html#ixzz2u393gfiN


----------



## sptrawler (22 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> The deceased asylum seeker was of Iranian descent. As far as I know there is no war there. Sure, it's not a nice place to live, but so are a lot of other places. You have to draw the line somewhere.




Yes, sadly he was a long way from home.


----------



## drsmith (23 February 2014)

banco said:


> Smells like children overboard:



The Minister during the week sent the heavy brass to Manus in the form of Angus Campbell.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/19/manus-mission-general-angus-campbell-sent

The government I suspect became increasingly aware during the week that something was amiss with the official  information they were getting.

The following version of what happened contains quiet a lot of detail,

http://www.news.com.au/national/loc...detention-centre/story-fncynjr2-1226834926562


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Minister during the week sent the heavy brass to Manus in the form of Angus Campbell.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/19/manus-mission-general-angus-campbell-sent
> 
> ...




Yes I suppose local guards, would get upset if middle eastern detainees, were threatening to abuse the women folk.

Why not, just load them up and ship them back, then let the process begin again.


----------



## drsmith (24 February 2014)

The PNG perspective on media coverage of the Manus riots in Australia,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/making-a-foe-of-a-friend/story-e6frg6z6-1226835346942#


----------



## drsmith (24 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I suppose local guards, would get upset if middle eastern detainees, were threatening to abuse the women folk.
> 
> Why not, just load them up and ship them back, then let the process begin again.



I suspect that what happened that local authorities were left to deal with the Monday night riot and realising the carnage afterwards attempted to cover their tracks in the initial information that ultimately found its way to Scott Morrison. This may have also included G4S.

There is no doubt that the timing of Scott Morrison's update on Saturday evening was political and this could be in part to minimise any potential diplomatic tensions between Australia and PNG over this.

This government has in effect been left with the legacy on one of Kevin Rudd's rushed policies in the lead up to the last election. With the focus on the front line (stopping the boats), not enough attention has been paid to the short term legacy of Kevin Rudd's Manus solution beyond maintaining it. This government though didn't renew G4S's Manus contract. That would suggest that the foundations had been laid for longer term centre management which at least lays a more solid foundation for the future. 

Politically, Scott Morrison is bruised from this but he is very much in front on the broader issue. Calls for his sacking from the hypocritical child senator is wishful thinking on her part.

Immigration is the subject of a senate estimates hearing tomorrow. That should be interesting.

Transfield takes over garrison and welfare services on March 1.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...centres-contract/story-e6frg8zx-1226835697208


----------



## noco (24 February 2014)

Keep pushing the message:



‘My bloody oath!’



So many have explained how this land is made up of immigrants.

Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people why today's Australian is not willing to accept the new kind of immigrant any longer.

Back in 1900 (after federation) when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to Australia, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in Sydney and be documented.

Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground.

They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new Australian households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home.

They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture.

Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them.

All they had were the skills, craftsmanship and desire they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity.

Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out.

Australians fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany, Italy, France, Japan, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Sweden, Poland and so many other places None of these first generation Australians ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from.

They were Australians fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan.

They were defending the Freedom as one people.

When we liberated France, no-one in those villages was looking for the Ukrainian-Australian or the German-Australian or the Irish-Australian.

The people of France saw only Australians.

And we carried one flag that represented our country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were.

It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an Australian

And here we are in 2014 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges, but not to learn or speak English.

They want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes an Australian passport and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country.

That's not what being an Australian is all about.

Australians have been very open-hearted and open-minded regarding immigrants, whether they were fleeing poverty, dictatorship, persecution, or whatever else makes us think of those aforementioned immigrants who truly did ADOPT our country, and our flag and our morals and our customs. And left their wars, hatred, and divisions behind.

I believe that the immigrants who landed in Australia in the early 1900s deserve better than that for the toil, hard work and sacrifice.

I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags, fighting foreign battles on our soil, making Australians change to suit their religions and cultures, and wanting to change our country's fabric by claiming discrimination when we do not give in to their demands.

It 's about time we get real and stand up for our forefathers rights, we are AUSTRALIANS!

NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.    

NO MORE not saying CHRISTMAS in our stores and in our schools.  

WE EAT PORK, WE DRINK BEER AND WE SPEAK ENGLISH AND WE WANT OUR AUSTRALIA BACK!

PLEASE KEEP THIS MOVING !

The origin of this post is unknown but it is being realistic to say the least.


----------



## drsmith (24 February 2014)

An insight into the Indonesian maritime boundary incursions by retired two-star rear admiral James Goldrick.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...tanding-the-maritime-boundary-problem/5278374


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## drsmith (24 February 2014)

noco said:


> The origin of this post is unknown but it is being realistic to say the least.




A google search of part of the contents usually turns up a source.

http://dttj.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/letter-to-immigrants-and-refugees.html


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## drsmith (24 February 2014)

Short video segment of Scott Morrison in Parliament today responding to questions from Richard Marles.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ics-live-february-24-2014-20140224-33b4v.html


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## drsmith (25 February 2014)

Another orange lifeboat has been deployed, this time returning 26 to Java.



> This is the third of the Operation Sovereign Borders lifeboats to be returned to Indonesia after the first was deployed on January 15.




In the past 9 weeks, 7 boatloads carrying approximately 270 passengers have been returned to Indonesia, 4 in their own boat and 3 in lifeboats. Of the asylum seekers, only 2 have been accepted by immigration, both on medical grounds. 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...k-boat-lands-in-indonesia-20140225-33dn7.html


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## drsmith (25 February 2014)

Last night's ABC 7:30 story on the Manus riots,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-24/witness-reveals-story-behind-manus-island-violence/5281112


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## banco (25 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> The PNG perspective on media coverage of the Manus riots in Australia,
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/making-a-foe-of-a-friend/story-e6frg6z6-1226835346942#




Come on  the whole point of the PNG solution is that PNG is an absolute ****hole that people won't want to live in.  Pretty funny the Australian feels compelled to talk the place up now that Abbott is in.


----------



## drsmith (25 February 2014)

banco said:


> Come on  the whole point of the PNG solution is that PNG is an absolute ****hole that people won't want to live in.  Pretty funny the Australian feels compelled to talk the place up now that Abbott is in.



The point of the PNG solution under Kevin the second was to salvage a few votes for Labor in the wake of the wreckage left from the Gillard government.

The point of offshore processing under the Howard government and this one is as part of a broader objective of stopping the boats.


----------



## drsmith (26 February 2014)

Stephen Conroy couldn't get the red underpants on Lieutenant-General Angus Campbell's head.



> A SENIOR Labor frontbencher has been forced to withdraw an accusation that Operation Sovereign Borders commander Angus Campbell has been engaged in a political cover-up.
> 
> The accusation by opposition defence spokesman Stephen Conroy, during an exchange over secrecy surrounding asylum-seeker operations, prompted the suspension of a Senate estimates hearing by its chairman, Liberal senator Ian Macdonald.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...of-boats-coverup/story-fn9hm1gu-1226837446653


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## noco (26 February 2014)

What a mob of hypocrits the Greens and many of the Labor lefties are to hold a candle light vigil over the death of one Iranian riotor on Manus Island....Where were these radicals when 1200 asylum seekers lost their lives at sea due to the stupid policy of Labor and the Greens? 

And furthermore they have not only asked to have Morrison sacked but are demanding a Royal commission for what may I ask? 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...their-choice-fix/story-e6frg7bo-1226837600745


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## overhang (26 February 2014)

noco said:


> What a mob of hypocrits the Greens and many of the Labor lefties are to hold a candle light vigil over the death of one Iranian riotor on Manus Island....Where were these radicals when 1200 asylum seekers lost their lives at sea due to the stupid policy of Labor and the Greens?




I'm guessing you took that from the trash excuse for a journalist Andrew Bolt, a quick google search would have debunked his theory. http://i.imgur.com/U3HhTFr.png    Unlike Bolt there are people out there who are humanitarians and don't just use it to as a mirage to hide behind a political agenda, ie the pink bats deaths.  

For the record I think apart from how poorly handled this has been by Morrison that Labor share equal blame for his death.


----------



## AAA (26 February 2014)

overhang said:


> I'm guessing you took that from the trash excuse for a journalist Andrew Bolt, a quick google search would have debunked his theory. http://i.imgur.com/U3HhTFr.png    Unlike Bolt there are people out there who are humanitarians and don't just use it to as a mirage to hide behind a political agenda, ie the pink bats deaths.
> 
> For the record I think apart from how poorly handled this has been by Morrison that Labor share equal blame for his death.




I'd allocate 99.9999% of the blame to Labor. If it weren't for Rudd dismantling the Howard policies we wouldn't have the thousands in detention that we have now. Rudd implemented the current Manus Is policy. Rudd allocated the funding (adequate or not)for the policy.  Rudd employed the company running this centre when the death occurred. The desceased arrived at Manus Is on Rudd's watch.

Where has Scott Morrison gone wrong here. What should he have done better.


----------



## overhang (26 February 2014)

AAA said:


> I'd allocate 99.9999% of the blame to Labor. If it weren't for Rudd dismantling the Howard policies we wouldn't have the thousands in detention that we have now. Rudd implemented the current Manus Is policy. Rudd allocated the funding (adequate or not)for the policy.  Rudd employed the company running this centre when the death occurred. The desceased arrived at Manus Is on Rudd's watch.
> 
> Where has Scott Morrison gone wrong here. What should he have done better.




And I would concur with you.  Where Morrison went wrong is the information he allowed himself to be mislead by, why is it the media had the information before his press conference that the riot occurred inside the center and that the locals entered the facility.  Why is it that a former G4S guard was on the ABC claiming it was common for the locals to be let into the facility as the number of PNG guards exceeded that of our own but yet Morrison was unaware this was taking place.  Obviously its more the case that he hasn't received the correct information but he is the face of this.  

I would like to know what the position of those opposed to these policies will be hypothetically in 9 years time, there are no boats and no one in detention due to the current tough stance, there for no one is suffering due to our policies.  Would they call for the abolishment of offshore processing again at the risk of an influx of boats resulting in drownings again?


----------



## rumpole (26 February 2014)

AAA said:


> Where has Scott Morrison gone wrong here. What should he have done better.




For starters he should discontinue the practise of using private security companies to do work that government agencies should be doing.

Private companies are just a ruse to get around the use of the Freedom of Information act and to defer responsibility for corrupt or underhand behaviour to someone else.

Morrison should clearly state that the buck stops with him when it comes to taking responsibility for his own portfolio, and not hide behind either the Defence Force or shady private corporations.


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## AAA (26 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> For starters he should discontinue the practise of using private security companies to do work that government agencies should be doing.
> 
> Private companies are just a ruse to get around the use of the Freedom of Information act and to defer responsibility for corrupt or underhand behaviour to someone else.
> 
> Morrison should clearly state that the buck stops with him when it comes to taking responsibility for his own portfolio, and not hide behind either the Defence Force or shady private corporations.




Private corporations are used increasingly throughout the world for activities that were once performed by governments ie. corrective services, military base security, speed camera activities. I don't see anything out of the ordinary or wrong in Australia using private security companies for security of these centres. It's done because it makes economic sense.

People die in detention quite regularly. Is a corrective services minister expected to resign every time there is a death in custody. 

Conditions could always be improved in these detention centres. It generally boils down to money. How much more does it cost to run these detention centres now with thousands in custody compared to the costs when there were only a handful of detainees as was the case when Labor came to power.

How many ministers for immigration did labor have. Did any of them have anywhere near the success Morrison has had in halting the arrival of boat arrivals. If you look at the results the only reasonable assessment of Morrisons performance is that he is doing an exceptional job.


----------



## noco (26 February 2014)

overhang said:


> I'm guessing you took that from the trash excuse for a journalist Andrew Bolt, a quick google search would have debunked his theory. http://i.imgur.com/U3HhTFr.png    Unlike Bolt there are people out there who are humanitarians and don't just use it to as a mirage to hide behind a political agenda, ie the pink bats deaths.
> 
> For the record I think apart from how poorly handled this has been by Morrison that Labor share equal blame for his death.




If you had been more astute, you would have noted the article came from the Australian.

Anfrew Bolt had nothing to do with it.

Wakie wakie!!!!!!!!


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## rumpole (26 February 2014)

AAA said:


> I don't see anything out of the ordinary or wrong in Australia using private security companies for security of these centres. It's done because it makes economic sense.
> 
> .




It may make economic sense to euthanise everyone over 70 before they cost us a fortune in health or pensions.

Please explain to me how someone who does something for a profit can do it cheaper than those who basically do it at cost ? By cutting corners, reducing standards, employing the cheapest labour possible (more susceptible to bribes), and generally acting as a black hole that swallows ministerial accountability.

The taxpayer still pays for these services, but the value we get from them is hidden behind "commercial in confidence" walls.


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## overhang (26 February 2014)

noco said:


> If you had been more astute, you would have noted the article came from the Australian.
> 
> Anfrew Bolt had nothing to do with it.
> 
> Wakie wakie!!!!!!!!




Oh sorry I wasn't aware as it was behind a paywall which I couldn't read.


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## AAA (26 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> It may make economic sense to euthanise everyone over 70 before they cost us a fortune in health or pensions.
> 
> Please explain to me how someone who does something for a profit can do it cheaper than those who basically do it at cost ? By cutting corners, reducing standards, employing the cheapest labour possible (more susceptible to bribes), and generally acting as a black hole that swallows ministerial accountability.
> 
> The taxpayer still pays for these services, but the value we get from them is hidden behind "commercial in confidence" walls.




It is a worldwide practice to privatise these sort of functions. It is not a world wide practice to euthanise the over 70s. Again if it wasn't for the incompetence of the labor government we wouldn't be having this problem. Our security bill would be significantly less along with less or non existent crowding in detention centre.


----------



## banco (26 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Stephen Conroy couldn't get the red underpants on Lieutenant-General Angus Campbell's head.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...of-boats-coverup/story-fn9hm1gu-1226837446653




I'm not sure why we have to pretend that Generals aren't a highly politicized bunch of careerists already (how do you think they got to that level)?


----------



## IFocus (26 February 2014)

AAA said:


> Again if it wasn't for the incompetence of the labor government we wouldn't be having this problem. Our security bill would be significantly less along with less or non existent crowding in detention centre.




OK so its all Labor's fault and Morrison has no responsibility for what happens in the management and miss reporting of the facts of detention centres.

I think I am on board......hang on thats an on water operational matter.


----------



## AAA (26 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> OK so its all Labor's fault and Morrison has no responsibility for what happens in the management and miss reporting of the facts of detention centres.
> 
> I think I am on board......hang on thats an on water operational matter.




Only logical conclusion. I can't find any reason to blame anyone but labor for our overflowing detention centres. Who do you blame IFocus.


----------



## IFocus (26 February 2014)

AAA said:


> Only logical conclusion. I can't find any reason to blame anyone but labor for our overflowing detention centres. Who do you blame IFocus.




No argument over how the boat people arrived.

However clearly this government will go down as not accepting responsibility for its own policies (operation sovereign borders covers detention centres) and running an operation thats gone rouge.

The Abbott government is creating history with its political agenda of destroying conventions defended by previous conservative governments.  

But keep up the mantra so we can see how far the polling trend is going to bite.


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## AAA (26 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> No argument over how the boat people arrived.
> 
> However clearly this government will go down as not accepting responsibility for its own policies (operation sovereign borders covers detention centres) and running an operation thats gone rouge.
> 
> ...




The present government was left with a very difficult situation caused by the previous labor governments policies and incompetence. They are making considerable efforts to sort this situation out. They are having considerable success. How many days since a boat got through. 

I just heard Richo interview Scott Morrison. 130 additional security personnel were deployed at Manus just before the riot. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent the subsequent mayhem. 

It's not a perfect world. When a prisoner is murdered in jail does the corrective services minister fall on his sword. When there's a surge in road deaths does the transport minister or police minister get the chop. When child abuse within the family kills a child does the family services minister cop it. 

I think there are people unfairly demanding demanding perfection from this governments border protection results.


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## drsmith (26 February 2014)

banco said:


> I'm not sure why we have to pretend that Generals aren't a highly politicized bunch of careerists already (how do you think they got to that level)?



Are you suggesting he deserved what Stephen Conroy dished out ?



AAA said:


> I think there are people unfairly demanding demanding perfection from this governments border protection results.



The bird's still squawking but you're arguing with a long since plucked parrot, especially on this topic.


----------



## noco (26 February 2014)

banco said:


> I'm not sure why we have to pretend that Generals aren't a highly politicized bunch of careerists already (how do you think they got to that level)?




What a lot of rot you speak.....I have a son who is high ranking in the air force....he has attained his ranking with study, hard work and examinations....these blokes do not just get promoted from being a brown nose....so stop carrying on like an grubby exunion rep or secretary who he needles his way into parliament.


----------



## banco (26 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> Are you suggesting he deserved what Stephen Conroy dished out ?




I'm suggesting that the good General is smart enough to know that his next promotion hinges on keeping the Government happy and that likely colours his actions. Just because he's wearing khaki doesn't mean he's any different than a civil servant wearing a suit and tie who does his best to filibuster and protect his Minister.  Let's not forget he was recently in the Prime Minister's Department performing a civil service role.  He knows how the game is played as well as any Humphrey.


----------



## banco (26 February 2014)

I'm sure he would look fetching in Khaki:


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## drsmith (26 February 2014)

banco said:


> I'm suggesting that the good General is smart enough to know that his next promotion hinges on keeping the Government happy and that likely colours his actions. Just because he's wearing khaki doesn't mean he's any different than a civil servant wearing a suit and tie who does his best to filibuster and protect his Minister.  Let's not forget he was recently in the Prime Minister's Department performing a civil service role.  He knows how the game is played as well as any Humphrey.



I'll ask the question again.

Are you suggesting he deserved what Stephen Conroy dished out ?


----------



## banco (26 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> I'll ask the question again.
> 
> Are you suggesting he deserved what Stephen Conroy dished out ?




I didn't think Conroy was out of line but then I think the Senators generally aren't aggressive enough with witnesses who obfuscate and filibuster.


----------



## drsmith (26 February 2014)

banco said:


> I didn't think Conroy was out of line but then I think the Senators generally aren't aggressive enough with witnesses who obfuscate and filibuster.



Thankyou.

You are at odds with even Stephen Conroy himself as he withdrew the remark although he didn't apologise.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

Scott Morrison himself said he could guarantee the safety of detainees inside detention centres.

As someone died inside a detention centre, why shouldn't Morrison take responsibility and resign ?


----------



## noco (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Scott Morrison himself said he could guarantee the safety of detainees inside detention centres.
> 
> As someone died inside a detention centre, why shouldn't Morrison take responsibility and resign ?




Why should Morrison resign when the detention camp was set up by Labor....the security of the camp was set up with the PNG governemnt by Labor......so there was a riot because these asylum seekers were allowed to penetrate our borders through the stupid policy of Labor....they finish up in a place they don't like because of Labor and because they are not processed quickly enough without their ID to establish who they are, they take exception and riot to seek world attention through the media, just as they did on Naru under Tony Bourke's watch when they burnt down the facilities costing millions of dollars.

The PNG security guards were out numbered so they called in locals to help....IMHO the locals feared the breakout might entice these asylum seekers to chase after the local women.

Having travelled to PNG 2 and 3 times a year over 18 years, I have gained a fair bit of knowledge of how local PNG men react and they would think nothing of going in with what ever weapons they could lay their hands on to prevent what they thought might happen to their women........It was unfortunate for the Iranian who was killed....he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and got in the way of a clanger. 80 others were injured....they most likely deserved what they received for their stupid decision to riot.

A lot of attention has been given to one death from this melee.....but don't worry about the 1200 + who lost their lives under the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd watch from 2008 to 2013....What a lot of hypocrites just to gain some poliotical points.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

noco said:


> Why should Morrison resign when the detention camp was set up by Labor....




Because Morrison is in charge now, and he hasn't shut down the camp. He personally guaranteed safety inside the camp and reneged. It's his responsibility.


----------



## Calliope (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Scott Morrison himself said he could guarantee the safety of detainees inside detention centres.
> 
> As someone died inside a detention centre, why shouldn't Morrison take responsibility and resign ?




What Scott Morrison said was;

''I can guarantee their safety when they remain in the centre *and act co-operatively with those who are trying to provide them with support and accommodation*". (my bolds)


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Because Morrison is in charge now, and he hasn't shut down the camp. He personally guaranteed safety inside the camp and reneged. It's his responsibility.





If Manus Island camp was shut down where would/should the current detainees be held.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

Scott Morrison's statement about safety

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2013/s3950476.htm


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

AAA said:


> If Manus Island camp was shut down where would/should the current detainees be held.




I didn't say it should be shut down. It should be run by staff of Morrison's department for which he takes full responsibility.


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Because Morrison is in charge now, and he hasn't shut down the camp. He personally guaranteed safety inside the camp and reneged. It's his responsibility.




I don't think Morrison will or should resign. The safety of asylum seekers will be enhanced by reducing the numbers in the camps. This can be achieved firstly by stabilising the numbers in the camps. This appears to be happening at the moment with no boat arrivals. The numbers can then be reduced by processing the detainees asylum claims. This appears to be a long drawn out process. However given the competence displayed by Morrison so far I believe he will manage to speed this up.


----------



## trainspotter (27 February 2014)

1200+ boat deaths in Labor reign = page 5 of SMH in a 2 column byline. 1 dead Iranian on Liberals watch = media hysteria? I just love how they have painted the immigrant Iranian to be a saint !! Lets canonise him next eh what?


----------



## Calliope (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> I didn't say it should be shut down. It should be run by staff of Morrison's department for which he takes full responsibility.




Yeah. Just like Shorten takes full responsibility for this guy's behavior.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

trainspotter said:


> 1200+ boat deaths in Labor reign = page 5 of SMH in a 2 column byline. 1 dead Iranian on Liberals watch = media hysteria? I just love how they have painted the immigrant Iranian to be a saint !! Lets canonise him next eh what?




You don't appear to appreciate the difference between people killed on the high seas and deaths in Australian custody.

Assigning all blame to Labor for drownings at sea and none to Morrison for a death in his custody is one eyed.


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> You don't appear to appreciate the difference between people killed on the high seas and deaths in Australian custody.
> 
> Assigning all blame to Labor for drownings at sea and none to Morrison for a death in his custody is one eyed.




Demanding the resignation of Morrison for one death in a bad situation that was caused by labor whilst ignoring the good job he is doing to rectify this bad situation is one eyed.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

AAA said:


> Demanding the resignation of Morrison for one death in a bad situation that was caused by labor whilst ignoring the good job he is doing to rectify this bad situation is one eyed.




Stopping a few boats at the cost of a cooperative relationship with nearby countries is not good policy. The pace of arrivals started slowing after the PNG agreement set up by Rudd. 

The Abbott/Morrison approach is overly aggressive and does not improve our image with countries that we are trying to establish better trade relationships with.


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Stopping a few boats at the cost of a cooperative relationship with nearby countries is not good policy. The pace of arrivals started slowing after the PNG agreement set up by Rudd.
> 
> The Abbott/Morrison approach is overly aggressive and does not improve our image with countries that we are trying to establish better trade relationships with.




The relationship with Indonesia is about as cooperative as the one they had with Labor that had 1000s of asylum seekers leaving their shore. 

I don't give Rudd any kudos for anything he did to solve the problem he is almost 100% responsible. . Like giving the fire bug praise for help putting out the fire. Do you really think someone as weak gutted as Rudd would have continued with such a hardline approach after the election if he had won. 

A few questions for you Rumpole. Do you give any credit for Morrison and the government for progress they have made on the issue of asylum seekers. Do blame labor at all for leaving government with overflowing camps at Manus and Naru and the hundreds of deaths at sea during their watch. If you don't think the deaths at sea was in anyway Labor's fault do you think it is worthy to take steps that may reduce or halt deaths at sea.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

AAA said:


> A few questions for you Rumpole. Do you give any credit for Morrison and the government for progress they have made on the issue of asylum seekers. Do blame labor at all for leaving government with overflowing camps at Manus and Naru and the hundreds of deaths at sea during their watch. If you don't think the deaths at sea was in anyway Labor's fault do you think it is worthy to take steps that may reduce or halt deaths at sea.




I maintain the contention that this policy has a cost, either now or in the future. With a huge emerging market to our north is it worth risking this just to attempt to prove to the ultra-Right that the Abbott government is gung ho ? 

If people arriving without visas are not going to be settled in Australia, there is no point in them coming here. Offshore processing and settlement is  deterrent enough. The Malaysia solution would have worked, and was a cooperative agreement with another country rather than a conflicting one. 

People have said that John Howard "cleaned out" the detention centres. Did these people simply disappear ? Where did they go ? The fact is that the majority of them were allowed to stay in Australia. That's a pretty "open door" result.


----------



## drsmith (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> The Malaysia solution would have worked, and was a cooperative agreement with another country rather than a conflicting one.



As I said in the Abbott Government thread, the Malaysia solution was discussed at length in this thread at the time it was proposed.


----------



## trainspotter (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> I maintain the contention that this policy has a cost, either now or in the future. With a huge emerging market to our north is it worth risking this just to attempt to prove to the ultra-Right that the Abbott government is gung ho ?




You have been on holidays and have not been cognitive enough to realise that this has already been discussed. SBY is making a BIG DEAL out of nothing as there is an election looming (Indonesia) and he is down in the polls. Money for trade will overcome all petty objections that are being thrown around by the incumbent government. Quite amazing how they did not have the resources to the South to stop the boats but the moment Aussie assets turn up on their territorial water borders there is a formidable flotilla of RED AND WHITE flags flying??

Monkey poo flinging chest beating at it's best 



> If people arriving without visas are not going to be settled in Australia, there is no point in them coming here.




OMG ... now you understand what the sovereign borders policy is all about !


----------



## Calliope (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Assigning all blame to Labor for drownings at sea and none to Morrison for a death in his custody is one eyed.




Your very apt namesake, Rumpole of the Bailey was also one-eyed. Leo McKern lost the other eye in an accident at age 15.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> As I said in the Abbott Government thread, the Malaysia solution was discussed at length in this thread at the time it was proposed.




Thanks,

If I have the time and energy to plumb the depths of this thread, I'll look it up.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

trainspotter said:


> You have been on holidays and have not been cognitive enough to realise that this has already been discussed. SBY is making a BIG DEAL out of nothing as there is an election looming (Indonesia) and he is down in the polls. Money for trade will overcome all petty objections that are being thrown around by the incumbent government. Quite amazing how they did not have the resources to the South to stop the boats but the moment Aussie assets turn up on their territorial water borders there is a formidable flotilla of RED AND WHITE flags flying??
> 
> Monkey poo flinging chest beating at it's best




SBY is not up for re-election. Whoever replaces him is unlikely to be as friendly towards up as he has been. Former Indonesian leaders have been standoffish at the least and openly hostile at worst. It will take us a long time to dig ourselves out of this mess.



> OMG ... now you understand what the sovereign borders policy is all about !




Sovereign borders is a lot of measures rolled into one. I agree with TPV's and offshore processing, but not with naval guerilla tactics.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> SBY is not up for re-election. Whoever replaces him is unlikely to be as friendly towards up as he has been. Former Indonesian leaders have been standoffish at the least and openly hostile at worst. It will take us a long time to dig ourselves out of this mess.




Yes. we aren't flavour of the month over there with the Corby mess and the boats issue. If the navy stuffs up again we could be in real trouble. I am sure they are acting very carefully these days. 

We and they will miss SBY, he has been their best leader ever imo.
I used to work there in Suharto's day.


----------



## trainspotter (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> SBY is not up for re-election. Whoever replaces him is unlikely to be as friendly towards up as he has been. Former Indonesian leaders have been standoffish at the least and openly hostile at worst. It will take us a long time to dig ourselves out of this mess.
> 
> Sovereign borders is a lot of measures rolled into one. I agree with TPV's and offshore processing, but not with naval guerilla tactics.




SBY's PARTY is up for re-election and it has been plagued with corruption and scandal. This is his way of shoreing up a few more votes so at least his party is not made irrelevant when the new government takes over and I CAN ASSURE you it wont be his political lien taking the reigns. Indonesia has taken a quantum leap into the 21st century of politics of late. They now realise that they cannot go around sabre rattling their trading neighbors. Tried it on with Singapore who impolitely told them to go further down the road and to Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo OFF !

The naval guerilla tactics as you call it, are effective BECAUSE the Indonesian Naval ships are now WHERE THEY SHOULD BE which is South where the illegal boats are entering our waters.


----------



## trainspotter (27 February 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes. we aren't flavour of the month over there with the Corby mess and the boats issue. If the navy stuffs up again we could be in real trouble. I am sure they are acting very carefully these days.
> 
> We and they will miss SBY, he has been their best leader ever imo.
> I used to work there in Suharto's day.




Google this* "SBY plagued with corruption" * .. YEaaaaaaaaaahhhhh greatest ever leader ever eh?

Corby mess?? LOLOLOL ... hardly ... Did you hear about the 9 Japanese tourists that got killed over there before Christmas? Nup .... what about the busload of Koreans that fell to their deaths off a bridge? Nup ... what about the German who had 2 kgs of hash in his Villa? Nup?

Oh well ... Australians have always been full of their own self importance when it comes to international matters.


----------



## Calliope (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Thanks,
> 
> If I have the time and energy to plumb the depths of this thread, I'll look it up.




I don't know about energy but you obviously have plenty of time to waste. After lying dormant for 18 months you have bombarded the forum with 84 posts in 10 days with no evidence of any research at all.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

Calliope said:


> I don't know about energy but you obviously have plenty of time to waste. After lying dormant for 18 months you have bombarded the forum with 84 posts in 10 days with no evidence of any research at all.




Has it really been 18 months ?

Thanks for the warm welcome home


----------



## noco (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> You don't appear to appreciate the difference between people killed on the high seas and deaths in Australian custody.
> 
> Assigning all blame to Labor for drownings at sea and none to Morrison for a death in his custody is one eyed.




Give up rompole.....you have got no chance of winning this debate..

The asylum seekers were guaranteed safety if they played by the rules, however they decided to riot for media attention and they broke the rules and they paid the price of one death and 80 injuries, so how can Morrison live up to what you expect....you certainly like to shift the goal posts to suit your argument and it ain't gonna work.

You take out insurance on your car and then make modifications on that car....you crash it and the insurance company won't pay because you made modifications without telling them....people get caught drink driving...they know the rules and when they caught breaking the rules they pay the price.

So rumpole are you now getting the picture on how things work?


----------



## Julia (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> People have said that John Howard "cleaned out" the detention centres. Did these people simply disappear ? Where did they go ? The fact is that the majority of them were allowed to stay in Australia. That's a pretty "open door" result.



Why do Labor supporters continue to perpetrate this myth?   Less than 40% were settled in Australia.
Here's the most detailed set of numbers I can find:



> 68 per cent of the asylum seekers were deemed genuine refugees and less than 40 per cent of asylum seekers sent to Nauru received resettlement in Australia. A 2006 report by the Australian Human Rights Commission showed that of the 1509 asylum seekers sent to Nauru by that time, 586 were granted Australian resettlement (39%), 360 resettled in New Zealand (24%), 19 resettled in Sweden (1.2%), 10 in Canada (<1%) and 4 in Norway (<1%). A total of 482 asylum seekers (32%) were deemed not genuine refugees and sent home.[21]


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

Julia said:


> Why do Labor supporters continue to perpetrate this myth?   Less than 40% were settled in Australia.
> Here's the most detailed set of numbers I can find:




If you prefer, a majority of asylum seekers were resettled in Australia and New Zealand, ie they were found to be genuine refugees.

I wonder why no governments (or oppositions) seem concerned about the 4,000 per annum asylum seekers who arrive here by air ?

http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/mapping-population/--documents/asylum-seekers-onshore-fact-sheet.pdf


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> If you prefer, a majority of asylum seekers were resettled in Australia and New Zealand, ie they were found to be genuine refugees.
> 
> I wonder why no governments (or oppositions) seem concerned about the 4,000 per annum asylum seekers who arrive here by air ?
> 
> http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/mapping-population/--documents/asylum-seekers-onshore-fact-sheet.pdf




People arriving by air have a paper trail. They have a passport that reveals their country of origin. Much easier to process than people arriving by boat with no paperwork.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

AAA said:


> People arriving by air have a paper trail. They have a passport that reveals their country of origin. Much easier to process than people arriving by boat with no paperwork.




I accept the bit about paper trail, but the sheer numbers must place a heavy burden on the taxpayer for processing.


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> I accept the bit about paper trail, but the sheer numbers must place a heavy burden on the taxpayer for processing.




Agreed. How many billions has this cost the taxpayer. The sooner the whole issue of asylum seekers is brought under control the better it will be for Australia.


----------



## noco (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> I accept the bit about paper trail, but the sheer numbers must place a heavy burden on the taxpayer for processing.




The fact that they have arrived by plane with paper work (ID), it is impossible for them to claim any social security from the Governent so how can they be a burden on the tax payer?....... They would either have to find work illegally or be sponsered by a relative or friend and stay under cover for the rest of their lives.

If they tried to claim social security in the way of a pension or the dole they would have to provide their details and once they do that, "BINGO" they will be caught. They would have to provide to the government deatils of where they live and their bank details.....do you think the air arrivals who over stay their visa are likely to reveal all this?

So your argument in this case has been shot down in flames.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

noco said:


> The fact that they have arrived by plane with paper work (ID), it is impossible for them to claim any social security from the Governent so how can they be a burden on the tax payer?....... They would either have to find work illegally or be sponsered by a relative or friend and stay under cover for the rest of their lives.
> 
> If they tried to claim social security in the way of a pension or the dole they would have to provide their details and once they do that, "BINGO" they will be caught. They would have to provide to the government deatils of where they live and their bank details.....do you think the air arrivals who over stay their visa are likely to reveal all this?
> 
> So your argument in this case has been shot down in flames.




So what are you saying ? Boat arrivals =BAD, Air arrivals=GOOD ?

They fly here then apply for asylum. That's where the processing comes in. Presumably they get benefits while their case is assessed. Burden on taxpayer.


----------



## drsmith (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Thanks,
> 
> If I have the time and energy to plumb the depths of this thread, I'll look it up.



This thread covers many of the historical issues in some depth as they occurred.

Time spent reading is infinitely more rewarding than time spent to ultimately see this fellow when looking in the mirror.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> This thread covers many of the historical issues in some depth as they occurred.
> 
> Time spent reading is infinitely more rewarding than time spent to ultimately see this fellow when looking in the mirror.




He's a lot heavier than I am


----------



## explod (27 February 2014)

There is a story in the Age today of a "15 year old boy detained in an Australian detention centre for years..."  "...his older brother was kidnapped by the Taliban and used as a mine detector until he was killed.  The boys parents, rather than see thier othervson meet this fate, sold everything they owned and smuggled him to Pakistan and arranged for him to travel from Indonesia by boat to Australia.  This boy later attended high school here and was celebrated as a hero by the entire school..."

Diana Greentee, Hurstbridge adds, his story is onevof many tales of courage and heartbreak.


----------



## noco (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> So what are you saying ? Boat arrivals =BAD, Air arrivals=GOOD ?
> 
> They fly here then apply for asylum. That's where the processing comes in. Presumably they get benefits while their case is assessed. Burden on taxpayer.




I did not say anything about being good or bad.....they are your words.

Do you have some proof of this?   where did you get your information?......how many have been approved in the manner you state and over what time period.....if any have sought asylum , how many have been approved and how many have been sent back?


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

explod said:


> There is a story in the Age today of a "15 year old boy detained in an Australian detention centre for years..."  "...his older brother was kidnapped by the Taliban and used as a mine detector until he was killed.  The boys parents, rather than see thier othervson meet this fate, sold everything they owned and smuggled him to Pakistan and arranged for him to travel from Indonesia by boat to Australia.  This boy later attended high school here and was celebrated as a hero by the entire school..."
> 
> Diana Greentee, Hurstbridge adds, his story is onevof many tales of courage and heartbreak.




So they are not all evil terrorists or crims eh ? That may come as news to some


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> I accept the bit about paper trail, but the sheer numbers must place a heavy burden on the taxpayer for processing.




The cost to process, is a lot less than, the cost to have them on our welfare system for life.

Even Labor agreed most were economic refugees.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

noco said:


> I did not say anything about being good or bad.....they are your words.
> 
> Do you have some proof of this?   where did you get your information?......how many have been approved in the manner you state and over what time period.....if any have sought asylum , how many have been approved and how many have been sent back?




Trawl through this and your questions will be answered

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/public...um/_files/asylum-stats-march-quarter-2013.pdf


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

sptrawler said:


> The cost to process, is a lot less than, the cost to have them on our welfare system for life.
> 
> Even Labor agreed most were economic refugees.




Why do you assume they will ALL be on welfare for life ? There are lots of examples of refugees starting businesses or otherwise working hard and paying their own way.


----------



## IFocus (27 February 2014)

drsmith said:


> This thread covers many of the historical issues in some depth as they occurred.
> 
> Time spent reading is infinitely more rewarding than time spent to ultimately see this fellow when looking in the mirror.




Cut out the personalisation its totally uncalled for, Rumpole provides valid arguments your premise is at best unfortunate you can do far better Dr.

As for the Malaysia argument what's with Cambodia? 

Feel free to provide the excuses.....its all Labors fault.


----------



## IFocus (27 February 2014)

AAA said:


> I don't think Morrison will or should resign.




In the Westminster system the buck stops with the minister.

Are you suggesting we change that convention like the other incursions of school yard politics currently employed by this opposition government.


----------



## rumpole (27 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> As for the Malaysia argument what's with Cambodia?




A not so subtle attempt to scare the hell out of refugees and stop them coming. If it succeeds I foresee North Korea will probably be next


----------



## IFocus (27 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Why do you assume they will ALL be on welfare for life ? There are lots of examples of refugees starting businesses or otherwise working hard and paying their own way.




I have always been fascinated with this.

Some one who fights their way through all sorts of issues way beyond the imaginations of anyone here for a better life for their family just to turn up and get the dole. 

My only exposure to refugees from the 3rd world is that parents work night and day for the further education of family members so they have a better future than they had.

They cannot pass on fortunes but can pass on higher education any wonder why Asians dominate our education systems.

Its sheer arrogance to believe that parents would want any thing less than what we would for our own children.


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> In the Westminster system the buck stops with the minister.
> 
> Are you suggesting we change that convention like the other incursions of school yard politics currently employed by this opposition government.




It's not a perfect world. When a prisoner is murdered in jail does the corrective services minister fall on his sword. When there's a surge in road deaths does the transport minister or police minister get the chop. When child abuse within the family kills a child does the family services minister cop it. 

If Morrison was incompetent it would be fair to expect him to resign. Morrison in my opinion has proven to be very competent so far.


----------



## AAA (27 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> In the Westminster system the buck stops with the minister.
> 
> Are you suggesting we change that convention like the other incursions of school yard politics currently employed by this opposition government.





Whilst we are talking about ministerial responsibilities did any immigration ministers resign over any of the 11 deaths in Australian detention centres between July 2010 and December 2012. Did Tony Burke resign when $60 000 000 worth of damage was caused during a riot.


----------



## drsmith (27 February 2014)

IFocus said:


> CUT.....its all Labors fault.



I disagree with that. 

It's only 99.9% Labor's fault. 

-----------------------------------------------------

Rumpy,

Sink ya teeth into the current government's version of this,

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12698&page=4&highlight=maternity


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## rumpole (28 February 2014)

Further to the increasing use of private corporations in government business, the following article is interesting.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-28/dunlop-small-government-can-equal-big-problems/5287718


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## Calliope (28 February 2014)

rumpole said:


> Further to the increasing use of private corporations in government business, the following article is interesting.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-28/dunlop-small-government-can-equal-big-problems/5287718




:topic


----------



## Macquack (28 February 2014)

Calliope said:


> :topic




You obviously did not read the article.

For the lazy ones



> The modern state - and it is true not just in Australia - is increasingly a hybrid of government and private power working in concert, and we can see it everywhere from the rise of the surveillance state, *the deployment of private contractors to do government dirty work in the Manus detention centre*, to the appointment of business people to the various reviews charged with "reforming" the economy. *That these developments go hand-in-hand with secrecy, a lack of transparency, jobs for the boys, and even a willingness to trash parliamentary conventions shouldn't surprise us: the last thing this sort of power wants to do is explain itself to mere citizens*.


----------



## Calliope (1 March 2014)

Macquack said:


> You obviously did not read the article.
> 
> For the lazy ones




:topic


----------



## rumpole (1 March 2014)

Calliope said:


> :topic




Anything would be on topic to some as long as it bagged the Labor party


----------



## banco (1 March 2014)

A good article about Saint Lieutenant General Angus Campbell:

Robert Armstrong, secretary of the British cabinet, famously called it being ''economical with the truth''. It's a technique of volunteering no information, answering questions literally, and playing a completely dead bat. Confirming only facts already known. Conscious use of ambiguous phrases such as ''as far as I know'' or ''to my knowledge'' that can equally imply inquiry or lack of it.

It's about deceiving without lying, misleading, answering questions not asked, and failing to answer questions which are. It's playing the smart-****. Making sure that nothing one says could be a springboard for criticism for what has occurred. When not ''cover-up'', which it often is, it's about ''providing cover''.


****

It's also practised, as a matter of routine, by military officers answering questions from people outside the direct chain of command. Anyone else - parliamentarians, press and public - will be told only what it is convenient for government and the services to have them know.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/practised-in-the-arts-of-deception-20140228-33rht.html#ixzz2ugQghWv7


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/practised-in-the-arts-of-deception-20140228-33rht.html#ixzz2ugQcPMLJ


----------



## IFocus (1 March 2014)

AAA said:


> It's not a perfect world. When a prisoner is murdered in jail does the corrective services minister fall on his sword. When there's a surge in road deaths does the transport minister or police minister get the chop. When child abuse within the family kills a child does the family services minister cop it.
> 
> If Morrison was incompetent it would be fair to expect him to resign. Morrison in my opinion has proven to be very competent so far.





If any of those ministers gave the wrong facts or account under the Westminster system there would hell to play simply because its a sign that they are out of touch with the system, department control or trying to hide the ugly facts etc. 

As Labor has had a chequered past with boat arrivals they are pretty much neutered on the subject which is a bad result given the Coalition are hiding behind uniforms to get a veil of secrecy on the bad news.


----------



## AAA (1 March 2014)

IFocus said:


> If any of those ministers gave the wrong facts or account under the Westminster system there would hell to play simply because its a sign that they are out of touch with the system, department control or trying to hide the ugly facts etc.
> 
> As Labor has had a chequered past with boat arrivals they are pretty much neutered on the subject which is a bad result given the Coalition are hiding behind uniforms to get a veil of secrecy on the bad news.




What bad news are they hiding. What ugly facts are they hiding. It's not like they were going to hide the the fact a detainee died. 

I think the government has a right to maintain operation secrecy. I equate it to law enforcement operations against large smuggling enterprises. The information in those instances is very much controlled.

I think the government is being attacked on the secrecy aspect as it is the only avenue for attack. The immediate success of OSB has only highlighted the ineptitude of Labor's border control efforts.

Why can't everyone be relieved that the boats and drownings have stopped. 

Are you happy the drownings have stopped Ifocus


----------



## rumpole (1 March 2014)

AAA said:


> .
> 
> Why can't everyone be relieved that the boats and drownings have stopped.





Once you go down an "ends justify the means" path, you never know where that will lead.

We know it's led to dealing with obnoxious regimes like Cambodia, so the high moral ground we expect of our governments is being seriously eroded.


----------



## AAA (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Once you go down an "ends justify the means" path, you never know where that will lead.
> 
> We know it's led to dealing with obnoxious regimes like Cambodia, so the high moral ground we expect of our governments is being seriously eroded.




Got a better way of sorting the whole situation out. Do you prefer regular boats arriving and regular drownings or as it stands now.


----------



## Bintang (1 March 2014)

AAA said:


> Got a better way of sorting the whole situation out. Do you prefer regular boats arriving and regular drownings or as it stands now.




None of these people have a better way. They are just armchair sportsmen. They are stone throwers.
When Labor was in charge they had all the information they could possibly want but they didn't use it to solve the problem. Their only ability was to make things worse.
So now these same buffoons are on the sidelines crying about lack of information. If they are given the information what the hell are they going to do with it. They are not in charge now. They should never have been in charge before.

Imo the uncontrolled invasion of our national borders is a state of war. It should be counter-acted with war-time like measures and that includes operational secrecy for obvious reasons.


----------



## rumpole (1 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> Imo the uncontrolled invasion of our national borders is a state of war.




Extremist paranoia at it's worst.

War = Armed conflict between two States.

You really think a few unarmed women and children constitute a national security threat ?

Your sort of people are the real threat.


----------



## rumpole (1 March 2014)

> Imo the uncontrolled invasion of our national borders is a state of war.




I assume then that you support torpedoing refugee boats and machine gunning any survivors ?


----------



## Bintang (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Extremist paranoia at it's worst.
> 
> War = Armed conflict between two States.
> 
> ...




I said nothing of the sort. The 'people smugglers' are the threat to our security. The unarmed women and children are the victims. (So are the unarmed men incidentally).


----------



## Bintang (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> I assume then that you support torpedoing refugee boats and machine gunning any survivors ?




The problem with people like you is that you are too blinkered to know who the real enemy is.


----------



## rumpole (1 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> I said nothing of the sort. The 'people smugglers' are the threat to our security. The unarmed women and children are the victims. (So are the unarmed men incidentally).




You use the term "war" very loosely.

People get deliberately killed in war. Whatever else people smugglers are, they are not armed combatants.


----------



## Bintang (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> You use the term "war" very loosely.
> 
> People get deliberately killed in war. Whatever else people smugglers are, they are not armed combatants.




But they have been causing people to get killed by putting them in unsafe boats.
A bit like drug smugglers who cause people to get killed as well.
Ever heard of the terms, 'drug war' or 'war on drugs'?
How many governments and police forces around the world who are fighting drug wars freely dispense information to the public about their anti-drug operations?
Fighting people smugglers should be no different.


----------



## rumpole (1 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> But they have been causing people to get killed by putting them in unsafe boats.
> A bit like drug smugglers who cause people to get killed as well.
> Ever heard of the terms, 'drug war' or 'war on drugs'?
> How many governments and police forces around the world who are fighting drug wars freely dispense information to the public about their anti-drug operations?
> Fighting people smugglers should be no different.




Different issue, but the "war on drugs" has miserably failed. The world is awash with drugs more so now that at any time in history. So whatever tactics the police forces are using against the drug cartels, they are useless.


----------



## Bintang (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Different issue, but the "war on drugs" has miserably failed. The world is awash with drugs more so now that at any time in history. So whatever tactics the police forces are using against the drug cartels, they are useless.




Yes a more difficult problem to solve but that's no excuse for going easy on people smugglers.
Under Labor Australia was more awash with asylum seekers than at any other time in its history.
Australia is now less awash with asylum seekers so the tactics currently being used against people smugglers are working.


----------



## DB008 (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Extremist paranoia at it's worst.
> 
> War = Armed conflict between two States.
> 
> ...




Wow. Just wow.

Blinkers are on...


----------



## Bintang (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> ........So whatever tactics the police forces are using against the drug cartels, they are useless.




btw way how much worse would it be if the police forces fighting drug wars* disclosed their operational information the way the Labor party wants disclosure of the Government's tactical information against people smugglers?
The war* on drugs is probably a war* without end.
Fortunately we have witnessed that the war* against people smuggling does have an end when a competent Government is in charge of the problem.

* *Note:* the word 'war' is used here according to its 'looser' dictionary definitions which exclude arm-conflict:
*war |wÃ´r| noun*
• a state of competition, conflict, or hostility between different people or groups: she was at war with her parents | a price war among discount retailers.
• a sustained effort to deal with or end a particular unpleasant or undesirable situation or condition: the authorities are waging war against all forms of smuggling | a war on drugs.


----------



## rumpole (1 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> btw way how much worse would it be if the police forces fighting drug wars* disclosed their operational information the way the Labor party wants disclosure of the Government's tactical information against people smugglers?
> .




Depends on how you define "operational" information.

What you are going to do is operational

What you have done is not.

- - - Updated - - -



DB008 said:


> Wow. Just wow.
> 
> Blinkers are on...




Yes, yours certainly are


----------



## Bintang (1 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Depends on how you define "operational" information.
> 
> What you are going to do is operational
> 
> ...




There's a good chance that 'if what you have already done has worked that you will keep doing it'**. So releasing information about what you have done is just as compromising as releasing information about what you plan to do.

** this probably does not apply to a Labor Government however. Australian voters saw that Labor preferred to create gigantic stuff-ups by changing ways that worked into ways that do not work.


----------



## drsmith (1 March 2014)

10 weeks now without a boat.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...ses/fact-sheet-operational-update-28-february

In that time 2 IMA's have been accepted by immigration authorities on health grounds from a turn back operation.

Voluntary returns to country of origin from offshore processing centres since 18/09/2013 is now 171, up 13 from last week.


----------



## noco (2 March 2014)

Conroy and the Labor Party are absolutely livid over the boats being stopped.........They said it could not be done....what an embarrassment.

Now the clean up of Labor's mess in processing the remnants has begun and it will take time and perhaps more riots into the bargain before it has been completed.. 

As quoted in the Australian :-

STEPHEN Conroy’s wilful ignorance on border protection provides an ominous insight. His inability - even as a former cabinet minister - to accept a tough but successful border protection regime creates doubt about a viable national settlement on this issue.

Having resurrected this mayhem once - at an intolerable cost - the Left is setting itself to unleash it again. Even after 70 days without a boat arrival, there is a long way to go before the integrity and normal order of our immigration system is restored.

The 6000 or more asylum-seekers in at least 16 onshore detention centres will need to be processed and returned, resettled or granted visas, along with about 25,000 around the nation on bridging visas or in community detention. And the same will need to occur for the more than 1300 on Manus Island, more than 1000 on Nauru and more than 1700 on Christmas Island.

Then, provided border protection operations hold and there is no new influx of boats, some centres may be dismantled.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ir-border-regime/story-fn8qlm5e-1226841202320


----------



## IFocus (2 March 2014)

AAA said:


> What bad news are they hiding. What ugly facts are they hiding. It's not like they were going to hide the the fact a detainee died.




I cannot tell you as you well know and as widely commented in the media there is a veil of secrecy.



> I think the government has a right to maintain operation secrecy.




When dealing with smugglers maybe, they are breaking the law, what Australia laws have people seeking asylum broken?  



> I think the government is being attacked on the secrecy aspect as it is the only avenue for attack. The immediate success of OSB has only highlighted the ineptitude of Labor's border control efforts.




Attacked? 

Is asking why and what are you doing attacking?

A minister running from press conferences and refusing to answer questions is ineptitude.



> Why can't everyone be relieved that the boats and drownings have stopped.




I think everyone is but conservatives using this for the high moral ground is rubbish.


----------



## IFocus (2 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> So releasing information about what you have done is just as compromising as releasing information about what you plan to do.




You mean like all the noise the Coalition made in opposition about asylum seekers


----------



## drsmith (2 March 2014)

noco said:


> The 6000 or more asylum-seekers in at least 16 onshore detention centres will need to be processed and returned, resettled or granted visas, along with about 25,000 around the nation on bridging visas or in community detention. And the same will need to occur for the more than 1300 on Manus Island, more than 1000 on Nauru and more than 1700 on Christmas Island.



The rate at which the backlog is cleared will be interesting to watch. Along with boat arrivals, information on returns is also provided on a weekly basis. On this aspect, the backlog was reduced by 18 in the week to Friday including the 13 from the offshore detention network.



> Thirteen illegal maritime arrival transferees were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre””eight to Iran three to India and two to Iraq.
> 
> Four illegal maritime arrival detainees were voluntarily removed””three to Iran and one to Iraq.
> 
> One illegal maritime arrival detainee was involuntarily removed to Sri Lanka. Their removal from Australia is consistent with Australia’s obligations.




http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...eign-borders-joint-agency-task-force-update-9


----------



## drsmith (3 March 2014)

Interesting article,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...nce-on-stopping-the-boats-20140228-33r3b.html


----------



## rumpole (3 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Interesting article,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...nce-on-stopping-the-boats-20140228-33r3b.html






> The flow of boats slowed sharply after the Rudd government signed the agreement with Papua New Guinea's Prime Minister, Peter O'Neill, to reopen the Manus Island centre and to resettle asylum seekers in PNG.
> 
> This agreement was the basis for Rudd's declaration that asylum seekers "will never be settled in Australia." The number of arrivals fell by some 40 per cent between that announcement and the September election.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...g-the-boats-20140228-33r3b.html#ixzz2uqN4loWe




 The flow of boats may well have stopped altogether due to the PNG agreement, but the Abbott government could not take the risk that this would happen and prove Rudd correct, so they had to go on their own gung ho crusade and make sure they took the credit.


----------



## noco (3 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> The flow of boats may well have stopped altogether due to the PNG agreement, but the Abbott government could not take the risk that this would happen and prove Rudd correct, so they had to go on their own gung ho crusade and make sure they took the credit.




Rudd created the problem in 2008.............Gillard made it worse in 2010 and gave token words pretending to try and stop the boats......the botched Timor and Malaysian solutions.....she opposed off shore processing and allowed the flood of boats to continue at an enormous cost to the Nation....just another method of her communistic back ground in association with her comrades in the Green movement to destroy the economy of Australia.

Illywacker Rudd came on the scene in 2013 to save the furniture and knowing the sentiments of the voting public over illegal refugees, set up the "PNG SOLUTION" to save a few seats..........it was a rushed botched up deal resulting in what we have today.

The Coalition had little or no choice but to continue with with a bad solution having to make do with the ills of this amateur Labor Party machine.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> The flow of boats may well have stopped altogether due to the PNG agreement, but the Abbott government could not take the risk that this would happen and prove Rudd correct, so they had to go on their own gung ho crusade and make sure they took the credit.




Rudd caused the fiasco, and made a desperate last minute vote saving gesture. 
It looked as well thought out as all his other initiatives, an absolute joke.


----------



## startrader (3 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> The flow of boats may well have stopped altogether due to the PNG agreement, but the Abbott government could not take the risk that this would happen and prove Rudd correct, so they had to go on their own gung ho crusade and make sure they took the credit.




That is one of the most delusional and ridiculous statements I have ever seen in my life!


----------



## rumpole (3 March 2014)

startrader said:


> That is one of the most delusional and ridiculous statements I have ever seen in my life!




If you honestly ask yourself why a government would engage in risky and expensive naval operations instead of waiting to see the full effect of the PNG solution which was working, then my comment makes perfect sense.


----------



## noco (3 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> If you honestly ask yourself why a government would engage in risky and expensive naval operations instead of waiting to see the full effect of the PNG solution which was working, then my comment makes perfect sense.




ROFL...


----------



## rumpole (3 March 2014)

noco said:


> ROFL...




A brilliant, well considered response backed up with logical argument.

I'm convinced... that I'm right.


----------



## AAA (3 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> If you honestly ask yourself why a government would engage in risky and expensive naval operations instead of waiting to see the full effect of the PNG solution which was working, then my comment makes perfect sense.




The problem we have is both Manus Is and Naru are near or at capacity. Every additional boat that arrived put pressure on the whole off shore processing system. Turning back boats was not part of Rudd's plan. Under Rudd's plan we wouldn't turned back the ones that OSB has. These arrivals would be adding pressure to the whole system. 
The off shore processing system would have a tipping point. If it reached a point where there wasn't room to hold anymore off shore the flood gates could open again. 

As far as it being a dangerous and expensive naval operation I imagine similar dangers would present when rescuing asylum seekers from the water after their boats sink. As far as being expensive apparently using life boats to turn away asylum seekers is a lot cheaper than processing their asylum application.


----------



## overhang (5 March 2014)

Quite a well written letter from a humanitarian perspective that I think we should all read
http://speakupforthose.wordpress.co...nister-for-immigration-and-border-protection/

Why do we continue to call these people illegals? 

I support the tough stance but why must this process take so long?  It upsets those that seek asylum and costs us a fortune.


----------



## noco (5 March 2014)

overhang said:


> Quite a well written letter from a humanitarian perspective that I think we should all read
> http://speakupforthose.wordpress.co...nister-for-immigration-and-border-protection/
> 
> Why do we continue to call these people illegals?
> ...




It is because they all threw there ID's over board to prevent the authorities from checking their back ground....that it is why it takes so long.......serves them right IMHO. I have no sympathy for them as most of them are economic refugees.


----------



## Bintang (5 March 2014)

overhang said:


> Why do we continue to call these people illegals?




Why do we call a spade a spade? Because it IS a spade.


----------



## trainspotter (6 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> If you honestly ask yourself why a government would engage in risky and expensive naval operations instead of waiting to see the full effect of the PNG solution which was working, then my comment makes perfect sense.




 It is pointless to resist, my son.


----------



## noco (8 March 2014)

I traveled to PNG 2 and 3 times per year for 18 years.......nothing has changed since my last trip in 1993......there is no way in the world that asylum seekers would have ever survived had they migrated to PNG and Kevin Rudd would have been very well aware of the conditions in that country when mooted the idea.

One always followed the 3 golden rules in PNG.
Never venture out at night.
Never go into isolated areas by yourself.
Always exercise vigilance everywhere one went during the day.

There is no doubt this deterrent has encouraged 10 to 15 asylum seekers to voluntarily return to their native countries each week.Let us hope that weekly figure increases in the weeks to come resulting in less cost to the tax payers of Australia and less worry to the Immigration authorities.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-of-png-violence/story-fnihslxi-1226848264933


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## drsmith (14 March 2014)

No boats now for 12 weeks.

In that time, only 2 IMA's have been accepted on medical grounds.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> No boats now for 12 weeks.
> 
> In that time, only 2 IMA's have been accepted on medical grounds.




Well that must be saving us money, that we can spend on carbon abatement. Basillio must be on board.


----------



## noco (15 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> No boats now for 12 weeks.
> 
> In that time, only 2 IMA's have been accepted on medical grounds.




And the Labor Party said it could not be done.

One thing the Labor Party has done is to have left us in an economic mess....But of course history will show, Labor in the Federal and all the state governments have always been lousy economic managers.  



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...s/something_youd_have_never_read_under_labor/


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## drsmith (17 March 2014)

6 boat arrivals on Xmas Island.

These ones though are legal.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ith-a-report-of-6-boat-arrivals.html#comments


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## drsmith (19 March 2014)

3-months (90 days) without a successful people smuggling operation by boat.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> 3-months (90 days) without a successful people smuggling operation by boat.




So it really wasn't that hard, shame Labor couldn't stop sucking up to everyone.

Labor just proves the old saying,"if you run round and round, in ever decreasing circles, you eventually disappear".

They appear to be gathering speed at the moment.


----------



## noco (19 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> 3-months (90 days) without a successful people smuggling operation by boat.




Geez Doc, for a moment when I saw that image of the vintage bottle I thought it was Kevin Rudd's sauce bottle....the sauce bottle he used to shake.


----------



## drsmith (20 March 2014)

noco said:


> Geez Doc, for a moment when I saw that image of the vintage bottle I thought it was Kevin Rudd's sauce bottle....the sauce bottle he used to shake.



Poor Kev always made a mess whatever he shook.

Editorial piece in yesterday's Australian on the influence of the ABC's coverage of this issue,



> THE ABC ought to be congratulated for shining a light on the Abbott government’s rigorous and successful effort to stop the people-smuggling trade into Australia. Sadly, perhaps predictably, the national broadcaster viewed matters from a different perspective, using its exclusive inside look at the boat turn-back operations to air criticisms. But by interviewing asylum-seekers from a thwarted people-smuggling venture and broadcasting vision filmed on the journey, the ABC’s 7.30 has added to our knowledge about Operation Sovereign Borders. While the ABC continues to focus on complaints of rough handling by the asylum-seekers and questions from the UN about the policy, what viewers saw was a unique insight into the difficult, dangerous and important work of our navy and Customs personnel, and the tactics and motivations of asylum-seekers.
> 
> The key protagonist was Arash Sedigh, an Iranian trying to emigrate with his wife, Azi. Mr Sedigh claimed he had applied to come to Australia under the skilled migration program and been rejected. Only then did he seek entry as a refugee. “We decided to go the illegal way,” he said, “to make them accept us.” Mr Sedigh mentioned religious persecution but stressed the “many job opportunities” in Australia where he could “make a wonderful life for my family”. We all understand those ambitions ”” hundreds of millions of people around the world would love to make a life for their families in our country ”” but this does not sound like a convincing case to be accepted as a refugee. Especially given camps in places such as Sudan, Pakistan, Jordan and Somalia are brim full with millions of legitimate refugees hoping for resettlement in countries such as Australia. Every economic migrant who manages to get to our continent by boat and pass themselves off as a refugee takes the place of a person in the camps. Mr Sedigh had tried to come by boat once before the journey filmed in late January and early February. He has now decided not to try again. The policy is tough but even the ABC concedes it is working.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-boat-operations/story-e6frg71x-1226858460819


----------



## noco (20 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Poor Kev always made a mess whatever he shook.
> 
> Editorial piece in yesterday's Australian on the influence of the ABC's coverage of this issue,
> 
> ...




Threats made to naval and customs personal .........F*** Australia......threats of another 9/11 in Australia...

OMG and to think we have another 50,000 like these goons roaming around Australia today.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...a-thousand-words/story-fnj45fvb-1226859493550


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## drsmith (20 March 2014)

The bright orange lifeboat fleet has been increased from 12 to 37. With 3 known to have been used, that leaves 34 in the bank.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ker-trebles-to-75-million-20140320-355ci.html


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## drsmith (22 March 2014)

noco said:


> Threats made to naval and customs personal .........F*** Australia......threats of another 9/11 in Australia...



That ABC 730 segment from late week was the best advertisement for the current government's policies yet, and Labor's failure.

Part two of that series was supposed to aired later that week but wasn't.

On the arrivals front, it's now been 26 weeks (6-months) since this government was sworn in. The first 13 weeks saw 1106 IMA's by boat. The second 13 have seen only 2. All boats that have attempted the journey in that time have had their passengers turned back to Indonesia whether in their own boat or with the bright orange lifeboats with the exception of the 2 IMA's above on medical grounds.

I haven't seen reports of even an attempt now for around a month.


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## noco (24 March 2014)

Another Labor debacle which has placed strain on our naval boats being used as water taxis to Christmas Island....They have become tired and warn out....Thanks for nuffin Kevie.

All more added cost to the tax payers of this country an if these new patrol boats are made in Australia, the unions will make sure they costaplenty.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...avy-asylum-fleet/story-e6frg8yo-1226862748395


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## overhang (25 March 2014)

Could anyone point me to historical figures of asylum seekers in Australian detention centers? Including offshore processing.


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## AAA (25 March 2014)

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/stat-as.php


overhang said:


> Could anyone point me to historical figures of asylum seekers in Australian detention centers? Including offshore processing.




Some info here about number of arrivals.


----------



## overhang (26 March 2014)

AAA said:


> https://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/stat-as.php
> 
> Some info here about number of arrivals.




Thanks AAA but it doesn't really contain the info I'm after.


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2014)

> A BOAT carrying about 50 asylum-seekers is heading for Christmas Island in a renewed test of Australia’s border crackdown, Indonesian police believe.



If that's the case, why didn't the Indonesian police stop them ?

Perhaps they're looking forward to another orange lifeboat on their shores.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...crackdown-police/story-fn9hm1gu-1226865012843


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2014)

The ABC has produced the following epic on the first 6-months of OSB,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/interactives/operation-sovereign-borders-the-first-6-months/

My 6-month summary is a little simpler,



drsmith said:


> It's now been 26 weeks (6-months) since this government was sworn in. The first 13 weeks saw 1106 IMA's by boat. The second 13 have seen only 2. All boats that have attempted the journey in that time have had their passengers turned back to Indonesia whether in their own boat or with the bright orange lifeboats with the exception of the 2 IMA's above on medical grounds.


----------



## overhang (26 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> The ABC has produced the following epic on the first 6-months of OSB,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/interactives/operation-sovereign-borders-the-first-6-months/
> 
> My 6-month summary is a little simpler,




Obviously it appears to have been successful but we can never fully know how successful while they continue to keep the number of boats turned back confidential.  There is no reason this figure can't be revealed every month or so, this doesn't compromise the mission as much as they try and proclaim.


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2014)

overhang said:


> Obviously it appears to have been successful but we can never fully know how successful while they continue to keep the number of boats turned back confidential.  There is no reason this figure can't be revealed every month or so, this doesn't compromise the mission as much as they try and proclaim.



It's the numbers that get through that count and we know how successful it's been by those numbers above.

As for actively publicising the turn backs that the government's critics thought they wouldn't be able to achieve, there's Indonesian domestic politics to consider.


----------



## overhang (26 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> We know how successful it's been by the numbers above.
> 
> As for actively publicising turn backs, there's Indonesian domestic politics to consider.




If boats are still leaving for Australia then it's not really stopping the boats is it?
Considering it's our navy turning back the boats then no the onus is on us to report those numbers.


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2014)

overhang said:


> If boats are still leaving for Australia then it's not really stopping the boats is it?
> Considering it's our navy turning back the boats then no the onus is on us to report those numbers.



As I said above, there's Indonesian domestic politics to consider.

As I also said it's the effectiveness in stopping them from getting here that counts. That achieves the twin policy goals of border security and acts as an obvious deterrence which in turn saves lives. 

If beyond that people wish to go on return budget cruises south of the Indonesian archipelago, that's up to them.


----------



## overhang (26 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> As I said above, there's Indonesian domestic politics to consider.
> 
> As I also said it's the effectiveness in stopping them from getting here that counts. That achieves the twin policy goals of border security and acts as an obvious deterrence which in turn saves lives.
> 
> If beyond that people wish to go on return budget cruises south of the Indonesian archipelago, that's up to them.




That's your opinion, my opinion is that as we're the ones turning back the boats then its in fact on us to confirm that number.
And as I said that's not really stopping the boats its just stopping the boats from reaching us.  Look I'm pleased the policy has worked to what was an otherwise unsustainable influx of boats but I'm under no illusion that the boats have in fact stopped.


----------



## drsmith (26 March 2014)

overhang said:


> That's your opinion, my opinion is that as we're the ones turning back the boats then its in fact on us to confirm that number.



It's more than opinion. 

The point about Indonesian politics is quiet valid as recent history has shown and it's simple logic that if none are getting through, that's the biggest deterrent.

At least we are in the same boat on being pleased the policy is working.


----------



## trainspotter (26 March 2014)

overhang said:


> That's your opinion, my opinion is that as we're the ones turning back the boats then its in fact on us to confirm that number.
> And as I said that's not really stopping the boats its just stopping the boats from reaching us.  Look I'm pleased the policy has worked to what was an otherwise unsustainable influx of boats but I'm under no illusion that the boats have in fact stopped.




Well at least they have "stopped" hitting our shores. Just Manus Island and Nauru and Christmas Island and (insert small island here that is run by a government that requires money thrown at them)


----------



## sails (27 March 2014)

overhang said:


> That's your opinion, my opinion is that as we're the ones turning back the boats then its in fact on us to confirm that number.
> And as I said that's not really stopping the boats its just stopping the boats from reaching us.  Look I'm pleased the policy has worked to what was an otherwise unsustainable influx of boats but I'm under no illusion that the boats have in fact stopped.




lol - whether the boats are stopped before leaving Indonesia or stopped enroute, they are still being stopped. They are being stopped from reaching their intended destination.

Or do you have a different definition to the meaning of "stopped"?

Here is some of the definition of "stopped" from the Free Dictionary:

. "stopped, stop•ping,
n. v.t.
1. to cease from or discontinue: to stop running.
2. to cause to cease: to stop crime.
3. to interrupt or check.
4. to cut off, intercept, or withhold: to stop supplies.
5. to restrain or prevent: I couldn't stop him from going.
6. to prevent from proceeding, acting, or operating: to stop a car.
7. to block or close off (often fol. by up): to stop up a sink.
8. to fill holes in (a wall, a decayed tooth, etc.).
9. to close (a container, tube, etc.) with a cork, plug, or the like.
10. to close the external orifice of (the ears, nose, mouth, etc.).
11. to check (a stroke, blow, etc.); parry; ward off.
12.
a. to defeat (an opposing player or team).
b. to defeat in a boxing match by a knockout or technical knockout.
13. to notify a bank to refuse payment of (a check) upon presentation.
14. (in bridge) to have an honor card and a sufficient number of protecting cards to keep an opponent from continuing to win in (a suit).
15.
a. to close (a fingerhole) in order to produce a particular note from a wind instrument.
b. to press down (a string of a violin, viola, etc.) in order to alter the pitch of the tone produced.
c. to produce (a particular note) by so doing."​
More here if you like:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stop


----------



## overhang (27 March 2014)

sails said:


> lol - whether the boats are stopped before leaving Indonesia or stopped enroute, they are still being stopped. They are being stopped from reaching their intended destination.
> 
> Or do you have a different definition to the meaning of "stopped"?




I call stopped when we're no longer paying 200k for a single use lifeboat to send these people back.


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2014)

overhang said:


> I call stopped when we're no longer paying 200k for a single use lifeboat to send these people back.



In terms of managing our borders, a boat whose passengers are returned to Indonesia is stopped. it's as simple as that.

Those lifeboats were a stroke of genius and with 34 in the bank will continue to be a powerful deterrent. There might even be some left over for Labor when (God forbid) they're ultimately returned to office.


----------



## overhang (27 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> In terms of managing our borders, a boat whose passengers are returned to Indonesia is stopped. it's as simple as that.
> 
> Those lifeboats were a stroke of genius and with 34 in the bank will continue to be a powerful deterrent. There might even be some left over for Labor when (God forbid) they're ultimately returned to office.




Managing our borders is another way of saying saving us money and all though its a hell of a lot cheaper to send them back its still costing us big $ every time a boat is turned back, so in fact when the boats stop leaving Indonesia then that's when our costs will be insignificant.


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2014)

overhang said:


> Managing our borders is another way of saying saving us money and all though its a hell of a lot cheaper to send them back its still costing us big $ every time a boat is turned back, so in fact when the boats stop leaving Indonesia then that's when our costs will be insignificant.



Significant costs will continue to be incurred for some time to deal with the legacy of the influx under Labor.

The cost of the lifeboats is insignificant in comparison to the cost of acceptance and processing.


----------



## overhang (27 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Significant costs will continue to be incurred for some time to deal with the legacy of the influx under Labor.
> 
> The cost of the lifeboats is insignificant in comparison to the cost of acceptance and processing.




Again your opinion.  Considering its all kept hush hush we can never evaluate the costs of each boat turn back.


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2014)

overhang said:


> Again your opinion.  Considering its all kept hush hush we can never evaluate the costs of each boat turn back.



One does not need to be a financial genius to understand the financial cost of turn backs is significantly less than the cost of acceptance and processing and the implications that has in encouraging the people smuggling trade.

We have the history of the Howard government and in comparison, the 6-years of Labor government to reflect on in relation to that and that's before we get to the human cost of those who drown at sea in the attempt. 

As I have pointed out on more than one occasion, the hush hush is about international diplomacy, specifically with Indonesia.

Overall, there still a significant cost to come in relation to dealing with the legacy of Labor's influx.


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Overall, there still a significant cost to come in relation to dealing with the legacy of Labor's influx.



On that score, Labor and the Greens combine again in the Senate to ensure that cost is as high as possible.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...s-governments-push-bring-back-temporary-visas

Bill Shorten in his National Press Club speech yesterday commented that immigrants do the jobs we don't want to do such as taxi drivers. In other words, the political demographic he and Labor wishes to encourage through immigration policy is the Labor supporter and it doesn't matter whether it's through official programs or people smuggling.


----------



## DB008 (27 March 2014)

Would this be considered racist in this country?

Learn English, integrate/learn our Australian culture, be part of this society, or go home...



> *The Netherlands Tells Immigrants to Learn Dutch or Get Out*
> 
> http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,901495844001_2064551,00.html


----------



## drsmith (28 March 2014)

14 weeks (99 days) now without a boat.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases

In the same period, 8 boat loads have been turned back (ex 2 IMA's on medical grounds), either in their own boat or in the 3 bright orange lifeboats already used.

No known boats have been confirmed leaving Indonesia since late Feb although there is an unconfirmed media report (above) of one leaving West Java this week with 50 on board.


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> No known boats have been confirmed leaving Indonesia since late Feb although there is an unconfirmed media report (above) of one leaving West Java this week with 50 on board.





I wonder if the 50 are people smugglers, on a fact finding mission, to re assess their business plan?

Maybe doing a functional organisational review.


----------



## drsmith (29 March 2014)

100 days without a boat.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...without-an-asylum-seeker-boat-arrival/5354100

:jump: :jump: :jump:


----------



## DB008 (30 March 2014)

So, they decide to leave their country, pay people smugglers thousands of $$$, and are now stuck in Indonesia. 

Why don't they just stay there and raise their family there?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> 100 days without a boat.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...without-an-asylum-seeker-boat-arrival/5354100
> 
> :jump: :jump: :jump:




I saw Tony Abbott last night trying to play down expectations. Something about the end of the monsoon season. (Funny I think the other side mentioned that a while ago).

Maybe we should prepare for another influx and see how many lifeboats the govt. is prepared to buy.


----------



## noco (30 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I saw Tony Abbott last night trying to play down expectations. Something about the end of the monsoon season. (Funny I think the other side mentioned that a while ago).
> 
> Maybe we should prepare for another influx and see how many lifeboats the govt. is prepared to buy.




No...No....the Labor policy has worked.....no more illegals.....well that is according to Richard Marles (the shadow immigration minister) who said it was Labors policy that stopped the boats.....but I do recall other Labor people saying the Coalitions policy of turning back the boats would not work.

It is a bit like not knowing whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 March 2014)

DB008 said:


> Would this be considered racist in this country?
> 
> Learn English, integrate/learn our Australian culture, be part of this society, or go home...






> Academics say education standards in New South Wales will be put into doubt by changes to the English as a Second Language program.
> 
> A group of academics has written to the State's Education Minister, Adrian Piccoli, saying they are concerned about the devolution of ESL funding to individual schools from next year.
> 
> It says the 'Local Schools, Local Policies' reform policy being implemented by the NSW Government will badly impact on migrant and refugee children....




More at
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-28/esl-changes-threaten-education-standards/4718882

I was under the impression that migrants were supposed to have English skills BEFORE they arrived here. Legitimate refugees may not, but they don't make up the bulk of the 130,000 mentioned.

There appears to be some slack procedures for admitting migrants. Taxpayers money should not be spent on teaching people how to speak our native language.


----------



## noco (30 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> More at
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-28/esl-changes-threaten-education-standards/4718882
> 
> I was under the impression that migrants were supposed to have English skills BEFORE they arrived here. Legitimate refugees may not, but they don't make up the bulk of the 130,000 mentioned.
> ...




Err, correction rummpy........I think it is 30,000 not 130,000.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 March 2014)

noco said:


> Err, correction rummpy........I think it is 30,000 not 130,000.




Read again Sir noco



> "When this happened in Victoria a lot of their ESL teachers disappeared and we are really really concerned about refugee and migrant children in schools. 130,000 of them are being by this program and there's no guarantee that these teachers will keep going after next year."




So, unless the journo made a typo (which has happened before), or you have other sources, we have to go by this figure.


----------



## noco (30 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Read again Sir noco
> 
> 
> 
> So, unless the journo made a typo (which has happened before), or you have other sources, we have to go by this figure.




Apology rummpy, I believed you were referring to the link in posts #2467 and 2469 when in actual fact you referring to some school kids statistics which did not really relate to this thread.

It was sort of coincidence that 130,000 and 30,000 were mentioned in two different links.


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

Child senator SHY in particular will be screaming, but this is another good move by the current government in dealing with the Labor/Green legacy,



> Asylum seekers who arrive in Australia by boat or plane without visas will no longer have access to free immigration services.
> 
> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison said that from Monday the government would cease funding the services, which he likened to "taxpayer-funded legal advice".
> 
> The move, announced during the 2013 election campaign, is expected to save the government $100 million over four years.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...advice-for-asylum-seekers-20140331-35sn6.html


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I saw Tony Abbott last night trying to play down expectations. Something about the end of the monsoon season. (Funny I think the other side mentioned that a while ago).
> 
> Maybe we should prepare for another influx and see how many lifeboats the govt. is prepared to buy.




In the same period 12-months ago there was 66 vessels carrying 3879 people.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ony-abbott-claims-victory-20140329-35pvp.html

One thing's for sure, they'll be bright orange lifeboats to bang Labor over the head with at the next election. At last count, there was 34 in the bank.


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

The child senator is true to form,



> "Refugees are now being treated by this government worse than mass murderers and rapists," she said.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...ration-advice-service-for-asylum-seek/5355570


----------



## Calliope (31 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> Child senator SHY in particular will be screaming, but this is another good move by the current government in dealing with the Labor/Green legacy,






> ...while the Greens said the move could put asylum seekers in jeopardy if they could not appeal their applications




Great. The more "in jeopardy" it puts the illegals, the better. If the Greens want to play do-gooders, they can ask their members for the money....shock...horror.

And what are the poor old "human rights lawyers" going to do for a crust?


----------



## Julia (31 March 2014)

The Greens just don't seem able to get that the government is all about ensuring maximum deterrent to asylum seekers, not encouragement with free lawyers.


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

Julia said:


> The Greens just don't seem able to get that the government is all about ensuring maximum deterrent to asylum seekers, not encouragement with free lawyers.



The Greens don't believe in sovereign nations. They believe in world government under their rule so we don't end up like Bob Brown's aliens.

The problem with that is that it goes against the basic evolutionary principal of adaptation and hence advancement through competition. World government will have its place only when we either encounter and can trade with intelligent life elsewhere in the universe (should it exist) or after we expand our own civilisation beyond this planet.


----------



## Julia (31 March 2014)

When bleating on about the rights of asylum seekers, the Greens and Labor should pause to consider that many, many Australians, a large proportion of whom have paid into the tax system, are unable to access Legal Aid.

The Left wants to take care of people who find their way here other than through official channels, but couldn't care less about the genuinely disadvantaged Australians.


----------



## drsmith (31 March 2014)

Julia said:


> When bleating on about the rights of asylum seekers, the Greens and Labor should pause to consider that many, many Australians, a large proportion of whom have paid into the tax system, are unable to access Legal Aid.
> 
> The Left wants to take care of people who find their way here other than through official channels, but couldn't care less about the genuinely disadvantaged Australians.



:iagree:

Useless Labor Party.


----------



## Calliope (1 April 2014)

DB008 said:


> So, they decide to leave their country, pay people smugglers thousands of $$$, and are now stuck in Indonesia.
> 
> Why don't they just stay there and raise their family there?




This might give you a clue.




> . A Department of Immigration survey in 2011 confirmed that 85 per cent of refugees were on social security payments even after five years here – including 94 per cent of all Afghan refugees.


----------



## drsmith (3 April 2014)

After a lot of tooing and froing, it seems that agreement on resettlement has finally been reached with PNG.



> Papua New Guinea will now resettle all asylum seekers who are found to be refugees and the Australian Federal Police will assist the investigation into the death of asylum seeker Reza Barati if requested, it was announced on Thursday.
> 
> The announcement comes only weeks after Prime Minister Peter O'Neill made plain that PNG would only resettle "some" of those whose refugee claims are recognised, insisting other countries in the region should "carry the same burden as we do".
> 
> ...




It will be interesting to see how many achieve refugee status. Not many I suspect.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ugees-and-afp-offers-help-20140403-zqqcq.html

Meanwhile, the UN may not like it but they have acknowledged the success of the current government's policies,



> A UNITED Nations expert on people smuggling and human trafficking says Canberra's tough but "questionable" policy on dealing with asylum seekers arriving by boat has successfully destroyed the current migrant smuggling model into Australia.
> 
> Sebastian Baumeister, from the UN's Office on Drugs and Crime, says the government has halted the boats heading to Australia, but questions remain over the whereabouts of thousands of asylum seekers stranded in Asia.
> 
> "With the changes in Australian migration asylum policies, there's now been a significant drop of arrivals by boat to Australia," Mr Baumeister told AAP.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...by-abbott-policy/story-fni0xqll-1226873799399


----------



## drsmith (4 April 2014)

Customs today has been a little tardy with this week's OSB update.

The Australian reported a boat leaving Indonesia last week but nothing further in the media since. 

Nothing from Shaz on Xmas Island (via Michael Smith) either.


----------



## noco (4 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> After a lot of tooing and froing, it seems that agreement on resettlement has finally been reached with PNG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doc, having visited PNG 2 or 3 times per year over some 18 years, I can tell you now that my prediction is those refugees will want to go back to their own country of origin within 12 months or less.

It is most unlikely they will meld into the PNG community.....they will not dare go out at night and they would have to exercise vigilance during the day......Work will be hard to come by so I would say they will be still living on Australian social security for the entire period of their stay......more cost to the Australian tax payer.


----------



## drsmith (7 April 2014)

noco said:


> Doc, having visited PNG 2 or 3 times per year over some 18 years, I can tell you now that my prediction is those refugees will want to go back to their own country of origin within 12 months or less.



That I suspect is what they're being encouraged to do and THE total that have returned to country of origin from an offshore processing centre since the commencement of OSB is now 199.

Last Friday's OSB update is now published. The number of weeks without a boat is now 15.



> The reporting period is from 9.00am 28 March 2014 to 9.00am 4 April 2014.
> 
> During this reporting period there were no illegal maritime arrivals transferred to Australian Immigration authorities.
> 
> ...




http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...ign-borders-joint-agency-task-force-update-14


----------



## noco (7 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> That I suspect is what they're being encouraged to do and THE total that have returned to country of origin from an offshore processing centre since the commencement of OSB is now 199.
> 
> Last Friday's OSB update is now published. The number of weeks without a boat is now 15.
> 
> ...




Yes the detainees are being whittled downed one by one...less cost burden to the Australian tax payer.

I repeat what I said on previous threads and posts, Julia Gillard and the Greens were hell bent on wrecking the economy of Australia and by accepting 50,000 asylum seekers thus adding $11 billion to that burden along with many other bad ideas.....This is the overall ideology of socialism (communism)............this is just one of many ways of how it works.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 April 2014)

Looks like we have to keep them even if they are crims

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-...nment-decision-on-asylum-seeker-visas/5378510




> The Federal Court has quashed a government decision to refuse protection visas to a group of refugees who were convicted of offences while in detention.
> 
> In 2011, under the Labor government, a new clause was added to the character test allowing the government to refuse a protection visa to a refugee if they were convicted of a crime in detention.
> 
> ...


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Looks like we have to keep them even if they are crims
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-...nment-decision-on-asylum-seeker-visas/5378510




Labor's incompetence knows no bounds when it comes to border protection.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> Labor's incompetence knows no bounds when it comes to border protection.




I thought you would say that, but Labor did make an effort to get rid of them



> Despite being recognised as refugees, they were all denied protection visas* by the Labor government* under the clause.


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought you would say that, but Labor did make an effort to get rid of them



That unfortunately doesn't match particularly well with the results of Labor's efforts.


----------



## drsmith (11 April 2014)

Today's weekly update is pleasingly monotonous.

No boats.


----------



## noco (11 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought you would say that, but Labor did make an effort to get rid of them




Yes Labor got rid of 1100 ........death by drowning.


----------



## drsmith (14 April 2014)

The following outlines the scale of the panic within Labor on this issue as last year's election approached. 



> In the dying days of her prime ministership, Ms Gillard made a last ditch bid to salvage Labor's border protection policies, with an approach to the Indonesian government to accept failed Iranian asylum seekers.
> 
> Australia would fly the Iranians back to Jakarta for their eventual repatriation to their homeland.
> 
> ...



Having put the sugar on the table, it was fanciful to expect Indonesia to take them back by plane. As for Kevin Rudd's half hatched so-called masterstroke, it was only funded till January this year and it remains to be seen how many are actually resettled in PNG. 

The true masterstroke as the numbers have shown has been turning back the boats and in particular, the IMA's with those bright orange lifeboats. Turning back the boats is the policy element Labor railed against the most.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...olicies-on-asylum-seekers-20140409-36dmd.html

Meanwhile, at a protest against the current government's asylum policies, it's all smiles for the camera.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2014/04/how-dare-the-government-stop-people-dying-at-sea.html


----------



## IFocus (17 April 2014)

These guys better not be political excuses just doesn't seem quite right to me that so many  could have gotten it so wrong.


Navy chief sacks commanding officer involved in Indonesian incursions



> One officer stripped of command and another sanctioned in announcement made same day Guardian Australia revelations cast doubt on investigation's findings
> 
> The chief of the Australian navy has sacked a senior commanding officer involved in one of the incursions into Indonesian waters.
> 
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ing-officer-involved-in-indonesian-incursions


----------



## drsmith (17 April 2014)

IFocus said:


> These guys better not be political excuses just doesn't seem quite right to me that so many  could have gotten it so wrong.
> 
> Navy chief sacks commanding officer involved in Indonesian incursions
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ing-officer-involved-in-indonesian-incursions



How many boats have we had in the past 16-weeks ?

How many does that compare to under Labor during the previous 12-month corresponding period ?

The parrot isn't now only plucked, It's just dropped off the perch.


----------



## noco (18 April 2014)

The silence form the comrades of the Greens is deafening.

They are not happy with the coalitions success......something comrades of the Greens said could not be done.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-by-80-per-cent/story-fn59niix-1226888420960


----------



## drsmith (19 April 2014)

noco said:


> The silence form the comrades of the Greens is deafening.



And whoever maintains the ABC's OSB log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents seems to have gone on leave.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents/5014496

Very quiet indeed.

17 weeks now without a boat and in the past week, another 10 IMA's were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre—all to Iran. This takes that total now to 213 since the commencement of OSB.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases


----------



## noco (19 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> And whoever maintains the ABC's OSB log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents seems to have gone on leave.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents/5014496
> 
> ...





Where is that Greens comrade Richard Marles the shadow Minister for Immigration?.. ....He seems to have gone into smoke.


----------



## drsmith (20 April 2014)

noco said:


> Where is that Greens comrade Richard Marles the shadow Minister for Immigration?.. ....He seems to have gone into smoke.



Perhaps he's decided that exile in one of 34 bright orange lifeboats is the best place to be.


----------



## noco (22 April 2014)

Ha comrade Kevvie......What happened to the war with Indonesia over stopping the boats?

I think SBY must have chickened out........or then again, perhaps he may be sending Tony a thank you card. 


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sun/comments/wheres_rudds_war_with_indonesia/


----------



## drsmith (24 April 2014)

A deal with Cambodia to resettle asylum seekers is moving closer. 



> "It's not about whether they are poor, it’s about whether they can be safe," Mr Morrison said. "That’s the issue. The [refugee] convention was not designed as an economic advancement program."




http://www.canberratimes.com.au/fed...ylum-seekers-moves-closer-20140423-zqyar.html


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> 17 weeks now without a boat and in the past week, another 10 IMA's were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre—all to Iran. This takes that total now to 213 since the commencement of OSB.
> 
> http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases



Another week without a boat according to the following media report taking the total now to 18 weeks without a successful people smuggling operation to Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ts-says-morrison/story-fn9hm1gu-1226896781374

According to the above, another 7 IMA's were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre. This takes that total to 220 since the commencement of OSB.

The above information is yet to make the customs site.


----------



## noco (27 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> Another week without a boat according to the following media report taking the total now to 18 weeks without a successful people smuggling operation to Australia.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ts-says-morrison/story-fn9hm1gu-1226896781374
> 
> ...




Richard Marles on the Bolt Report states it was Labor's PNG policy that stopped 90% of the boats....It was the Coalition who fought for months to persuade Labor into off shore prossessing on Manus and Narua and in the last minute before the 2013 election, Rudd in his wisdom, introduced it to capture some votes to save the furniture and what a mess he made of that like everything else he touched.....It was Richard Marles who stated then, that the  Coalition would never stop the boats.


----------



## drsmith (30 April 2014)

Cambodia agrees 'in principle' to resettle asylum seekers bound for Australia.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ekers-bound-for-australia-20140430-zr1jz.html


----------



## Julia (30 April 2014)

> Poll: Do you agree with the idea to send asylum seekers held by Australia on Nauru to Cambodia for resettlement?
> 
> Yes
> 
> ...



From the SMH.   I'm included in the 78%.  Cambodia has a very poor human rights record and presumably is focusing on the money they will receive from the Australian government, which may not go towards properly looking after refugees.

I suppose it depends on whether one considers this all part of the intentional deterrent factor, rather than a genuine attempt to provide a reasonable existence for genuine refugees.
If that's the motivation, then - like Manus and Nauru - it will probably work.


----------



## drsmith (30 April 2014)

Julia said:


> I'm included in the 78%.



We had differing views on whether the Libs should have supported Labor's Malaysia solution too. 

Intentional deterrent, recognises that the vast majority are not genuine refugees (Bob Carr) and will encourage voluntary returns to country of origin. 

All positives in dealing with this backlog in my view.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2014)

> I suppose it depends on whether one considers this all part of the intentional deterrent factor, rather than a genuine attempt to provide a reasonable existence for genuine refugees.




There is no doubt in my mind that the idea of sending refugees to Cambodia was simply to scare the $..t out of them so they wouldn't come here in the first place, rather than it being a safe place to send them to.

Those concerned about Cambodia's human rights record might consider that PNG's isn't all that great either, as was recently seen with the Iranian's death.


----------



## noco (30 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no doubt in my mind that the idea of sending refugees to Cambodia was simply to scare the $..t out of them so they wouldn't come here in the first place, rather than it being a safe place to send them to.
> 
> Those concerned about Cambodia's human rights record might consider that PNG's isn't all that great either, as was recently seen with the Iranian's death.




I doubt very much if you will ever see another riot on Manus......the refugees have learn 't their lesson not to  mess with the locals.

As far as settling in PNG there would no chance of them setting up their mosques, praying in the streets of having their loud speakers wailing at 5 in the morning.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2014)

noco said:


> I doubt very much if you will ever see another riot on Manus......the refugees have learn 't their lesson not mess with the locals.




Did the refugees mess with the locals, or did the locals mess with the refugees ?


----------



## noco (30 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Did the refugees mess with the locals, or did the locals mess with the refugees ?




From what I understand is the minority security guards contingent were out numbered and would not have been able to control the intensity of the riot, hence they called in local reinforcements.

I know from experience, some of the locals have little consideration for the preservation of life.....In many cases they will kill each other as pay back for some trivial happening.....I believe the Iranian who was killed just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time....It was not premeditated.


----------



## drsmith (2 May 2014)

Another week without a boat taking the total to 19 weeks without a successful people smuggling operation to Australia.

Another 7 IMA's were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre. This takes that total to 227 since the commencement of OSB.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases/operational-update-2-may


----------



## drsmith (2 May 2014)

The following media report of a boat from late March came to nothing.



> A BOAT carrying about 50 asylum-seekers is heading for Christmas Island in a renewed test of Australia’s border crackdown, Indonesian police believe.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...crackdown-police/story-fn9hm1gu-1226865012843

Today we have another but with Tony Abbott declining an offer from his Indonesian counterpart to attend a conference in Bali next week, it might have more substance.



> The West Australian newspaper has reported that Australia's border protection authorities are in the process of tracking down an asylum seeker boat seen in waters between Java and Ashmore Reef.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-susilo-bambang-yudhoyono-20140502-zr3kz.html

ABC,



> Prime Minister Tony Abbott has abandoned a planned trip to Indonesia due to an "on-water operation" which Australian Government sources believe has the potential to cause "embarrassment" to president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.
> 
> Mr Yudhoyono had invited Mr Abbott to attend the Open Government Partnership Conference in Bali next week and plans were in place to make it happen.
> 
> ...




I'd suggest one of those 34 bright orange lifeboats is about to be called into service.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-02/abbott-cancels-bali-trip-after-on-water-incident/5427384


----------



## Ferret (2 May 2014)

Scott Morrison has done a fine job as immigration minister.  Can we please have him as prime minister.


----------



## drsmith (2 May 2014)

Another fresh attempt, this time from Sri-Lanka. They didn't get very far.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/05/02/23/20/sri-lanka-arrests-aust-bound-boat-people


----------



## drsmith (3 May 2014)

Mum's the word from Indonesia too despite another round of futile hyperventilation from Labor and the Greens.



> Finance Minister Mathias Cormann is providing a different explanation saying Mr Abbott's cancelled visit to Bali falls close to the budget, which is due to be delivered in just over a week's time.
> 
> The date the budget is handed down is fixed every year to the second Tuesday in May.
> 
> Mr Yudhoyono's spokesman Teku Faizasyah says the Indonesian government is "well aware" of the Australian Government's upcoming budget and will not comment on whether or not an asylum seeker operation is taking place.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...explain-reasons-behind-cancelled-trip/5428278


----------



## banco (3 May 2014)

drsmith said:


> Mum's the word from Indonesia too despite another round of futile hyperventilation from Labor and the Greens.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...explain-reasons-behind-cancelled-trip/5428278




LOL so they were unaware that the budget was going to be handed down on that date.  ****ing liars and not very good ones.


----------



## drsmith (3 May 2014)

banco said:


> LOL so they were unaware that the budget was going to be handed down on that date.  ****ing liars and not very good ones.



Sour grapes won't help.

The success of this government's border protection policies after the mess it was left by Labor speaks for itself.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2014)

drsmith said:


> Today we have another but with Tony Abbott declining an offer from his Indonesian counterpart to attend a conference in Bali next week, it might have more substance.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-susilo-bambang-yudhoyono-20140502-zr3kz.html
> 
> ...



As it turned out, a bright orange lifeboat wasn't required and it seems crew and passengers were sent back in their own boat with a few extras.



> The asylum seeker boat that allegedly deterred Tony Abbott from meeting Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono this week has been found in Indonesia after the Australian navy reportedly put three extra people on board and then turned it back.
> 
> People on board the wooden boat have told authorities in Indonesia that the Australian navy loaded two Albanians and one Indonesian onto the boat before sending it back to a remote island in eastern Indonesia.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...oading-three-extra-people-20140506-zr55k.html

The Fairfax press though is still having a lot of trouble coming to terms with the success of this government's border protection policies. Despite the above, the following this morning is the top story on the SMH's online front page. 

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-t...-big-chill-with-indonesia-20140505-zr4zy.html


----------



## banco (6 May 2014)

So those lying bastards were lying about the reason for the cancellation of the Indonesia visit.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2014)

banco said:


> So those lying bastards were lying about the reason for the cancellation of the Indonesia visit.



As I said before, sour grapes won't help.


----------



## banco (6 May 2014)

Interesting to see your tolerance of dishonesty from politicians seems to depend on whether it's the libs or labor.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2014)

banco said:


> Interesting to see your tolerance of dishonesty from politicians seems to depend on whether it's the libs or labor.



The reason given reflects the political reality between Australia and Indonesia given the underlying problems Labor's border protections policies in government created, for both countries.

It's interesting to see your balance on issues of national significance.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2014)

drsmith said:


> As it turned out, a bright orange lifeboat wasn't required and it seems crew and passengers were sent back in their own boat with a few extras.




Media reports are now emerging that the people smugglers were only able to get 18 passengers on board this attempt.



> According to an account given to Indonesia’s navy, the crew said two Australian warships put three extra people on board their boat before they were escorted to Indonesian waters.
> 
> They say they were in Australian waters on May 1 while taking 18 asylum seekers from India and Nepal towards Ashmore Reef and were escorted back to Indonesian territory a day later.
> 
> ...




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ylum-seeker-boat/story-fni0xqrc-1226906878139


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Fairfax press though is still having a lot of trouble coming to terms with the success of this government's border protection policies. Despite the above, the following this morning is the top story on the SMH's online front page.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-t...-big-chill-with-indonesia-20140505-zr4zy.html




Yes it is hillarious, he bags the coalition for telling Indonesia they are going to turn back boats. 
Wasn't it Rudd up there, begging Bam Bam, to tell Abbott to not turn back the boats, snivelling little twerp.lol As if that helped international relationships, involving them in domestic politics, what a laugh.

These highly paid reporters might be worried, Abbott is going to tax them more and hit them for not having private health insurance. Must be some reason for the continuous hate reporting.lol


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2014)

It looks like the additional two added to the turned back boat were from another boat in the same area at a similar time. 

That would make sense given there was also an Indonesian crew member transferred as well.



> A spokesman for the Indonesian Co-ordinating Minister for Legal, Political and Security Affairs, Djoko Suyanto, said on Tuesday that 20 asylum seekers turned back on one boat on Monday actually came from two different vessels discovered by Australian authorities in the same waters at a similar time.
> 
> They are the eighth and ninth boats confirmed to have been returned under Operation Sovereign Borders.
> 
> The spokesman, Agus Barnas, said Australian navy or Customs vessels had intercepted both boats, combined the two groups, put them back on the wooden boat of the larger group and pushed them back to Indonesia.




http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/fed...for-turnback-to-indonesia-20140506-zr5kb.html

The Greens can therefore once again curb their excitement.



> Greens leader Christine Milne says she is shocked by the reports.
> 
> She says if they are true, it would be in complete contravention of international law.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...tatement-on-asylum-seeker-boat-turn-b/5432284


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2014)

Poor Marty.

After the success of our government's policies in stopping the boats with such little help from Indonesia itself, he's been left to sell whatever he can to his domestic audience.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...-extra-passengers-serious-development/5434540


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2014)

drsmith said:


> Poor Marty.
> 
> After the success of our government's policies in stopping the boats with such little help from Indonesia itself, he's been left to sell whatever he can to his domestic audience.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...-extra-passengers-serious-development/5434540




Interesting that the ABC said the trip was called off because of the asylum seeker issue.
But the Government says it was due to the nearness of the budget.
Obviously the ABC has an intimate understanding of Government decisions.


----------



## drsmith (6 May 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting that the ABC said the trip was called off because of the asylum seeker issue.
> But the Government says it was due to the nearness of the budget.
> Obviously the ABC has an intimate understanding of Government decisions.



They have to have something to do. 

They haven't had to update their log of boat arrivals for quiet a while.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/log-of-boat-arrivals-and-other-asylum-seeker-incidents/5014496


----------



## drsmith (9 May 2014)

20 weeks without a successful people smuggling operation to Australia.

Another 9 IMA's were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre. This takes that total to 236 since the commencement of OSB.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases/operational-update-9-may


----------



## orr (10 May 2014)

drsmith said:


> 20 weeks without a successful people smuggling operation to Australia.
> 
> Another 9 IMA's were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre. This takes that total to 236 since the commencement of OSB.
> 
> http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases/operational-update-9-may




And still they attempt to come; Knowing that their fate at our hands, is to be shipped off to a Cannibal Island gulag with no human rights no justice and be kept at the hands of the merciless, murderous thugs of our employ. 
Hats off Australia you've solved the problem..... In the very very small minds of some.


----------



## Calliope (10 May 2014)

orr said:


> And still they attempt to come; Knowing that their fate at our hands, is to be shipped off to a Cannibal Island gulag with no human rights no justice and be kept at the hands of the merciless, murderous thugs of our employ.
> Hats off Australia you've solved the problem..... In the very very small minds of some.




Not everyone is as high-minded as you orr. I hypothesise that if squatters turned up on your doorstep, proclaiming their rights to share your home, you would welcome them with open arms.

However the word would soon get around that you are a soft touch, and the trickle would become a flood. Perhaps then, you would take the honey off the table.


----------



## drsmith (10 May 2014)

I'd like to see the high-minded sour grapes brigade willingly welcome gentlemen such as this into their homes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Ifw-4O_4I


----------



## drsmith (13 May 2014)

Scott Morrison in Parliament today as reported by Fairfax,



> 2:54pm: The government is not spending all its dixers directly on the budget, however.
> 
> We have had one to Scott Morrison on the result of Australia's "strong border protection policies".
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/business/fede...2014-politics-live-may-13-20140513-386f8.html

My bolds.


----------



## drsmith (16 May 2014)

21 weeks without a successful people smuggling operation to Australia.

Over the past week 10 IMA's were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre. This total is now 246 since the commencement of OSB.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases/operational-update-16-may


----------



## drsmith (19 May 2014)

> The Cambodian government is in the final stages of considering a refugee resettlement agreement with Australia and wants to sign a memorandum of understanding as soon as possible.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...efugee-settlement-deal-with-australia/5460918


----------



## noco (19 May 2014)

drsmith said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...efugee-settlement-deal-with-australia/5460918





Doc, I do not know which would be the lesser of two evils......PNG or Cambodia......but both countries will benefit from Aussie tax payers dollars.


----------



## noco (23 May 2014)

No boat arrivals for the past 5 months......9 detention centers closed.......illegal refugees on Christmas Island halved to just over 1000 and Bill Shorten does not have the decency to admit the policy of the Coalition has been successful.....I mean what is wrong with this bloke?...

Before the election Labor said it would not work.......how wrong they have been again.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ats-have-stopped/story-fnihslxi-1226928815184


----------



## bunyip (17 June 2014)

Remember the illegal boat people who came to grief when rough weather wrecked their boats off Christmas Island (I think it was), and Australian personnel risked their lives to rescue them. Some were drowned in spite of the efforts of our people. Now the ones we rescued are suing the Australian government.
What ungrateful, shameless, disgraceful people. This is a bit like if you risked your life to pull a badly injured person from a fiery car crash, and the bastard sues you because the intensity of the flames prevented you from rescuing his wife or child as well.
Maybe we should just let them fend for themselves if this sort of situation ever arises again.


----------



## dutchie (17 June 2014)

bunyip said:


> Remember the illegal boat people who came to grief when rough weather wrecked their boats off Christmas Island (I think it was), and Australian personnel risked their lives to rescue them. Some were drowned in spite of the efforts of our people. Now the ones we rescued are suing the Australian government.
> What ungrateful, shameless, disgraceful people. This is a bit like if you risked your life to pull a badly injured person from a fiery car crash, and the bastard sues you because the intensity of the flames prevented you from rescuing his wife or child as well.
> Maybe we should just let them fend for themselves if this sort of situation ever arises again.




You've got to be kidding!?!


----------



## Julia (17 June 2014)

No, he is not kidding, dutchie.  Just unbelievable.  Some of the argument offered by Geoffrey Newhouse, the lawyer who is putting up the action, is extraordinary.  eg that the Australian government failed to properly maintain the vessel which capsized.  Yes, really.  This is apparently on the basis that if the government take control of a vessel it becomes their property.
And so on.   
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-...ue-over-2010-christmas-island-tragedy/5528270


----------



## dutchie (17 June 2014)

That pathetic lawyer and firm, Shine Lawyers, should be red carded.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 June 2014)

dutchie said:


> That pathetic lawyer and firm, Shine Lawyers, should be red carded.




It's obviously a vexatious suit and should be thrown out, but the lawyers are just doing their jobs.


----------



## bunyip (18 June 2014)

dutchie said:


> That pathetic lawyer and firm, Shine Lawyers, should be red carded.




No standard is too low for lawyers to stoop to. Ditto for some of these mongrels who come uninvited to our county, and adopt the attitude that we’re their servants who are at their beck and call. 
I sincerely hope the Australian government has enough sense not to grant these grubby people permanent residency in Australia.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2014)

6-months now without a successful people smuggling operation to Australia and more have now been sent home than have arrived since this government was sworn in.

Yippee.


----------



## noco (25 June 2014)

Let us all be thankful that we now have a government who are taking the terrorist situation in Australia seriously. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...aware-of-jihadis/story-e6frg7bo-1226965518839

Charmaine 7 hours ago

The Labor / Green alliance during its time in power, perpetrated a gross dereliction of its most fundamental duty to Australia's citizens; the duty to do everything in its power to keep our people safe. In its moral vanity, attempting to prove it cared more than the other side, Rudd's government foolishly & recklessly decided to give a ' come on down ' signal to , well, anyone who wanted to. Of the 50,000 people who enthusiastically accepted this offer, 30,000 have been released into ' community detention' without adequate security clearance. Who knows who some of them might be ? In a tough competition to name Labor/Green's most idiotic , incompetent & potentially dangerous decision, it's hard to go past this one. Also , it is extremely disturbing to see a complete absence of public condemnation by supposedly moderate Muslims in Australia of this trend of home-grown jihadis . The Australian public could be forgiven for assuming that this stems from a secret support of these actions.


----------



## dutchie (25 June 2014)

noco said:


> . The Australian public could be forgiven for assuming that this stems from a secret support of these actions.




That's what I and many Australians have assumed for a long time.

There is never any condemnation by so called "moderates' of the many vile actions taken by the so called 'extremists'.

We should be very scared for our children's future.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 June 2014)

noco said:


> Let us all be thankful that we now have a government who are taking the terrorist situation in Australia seriously.
> 
> 
> The Australian public could be forgiven for assuming that this stems from a secret support of these actions.




So now you are accusing Labor and the Greens of being secret jihadists ?

What a joke.

Many of the jihadists could well have come here during the periods of high regular immigration intakes during the Howard and following Rudd/Gillard governments.

At least two of the three jihadists who plotted to attack the Holsworthy army base arrived in Australia pre 2007.

I suggest you check your facts before making outrageous sweeping statements.


----------



## dutchie (25 June 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Many of the jihadists could well have come here during the periods of high regular immigration intakes during the Howard and following Rudd/Gillard governments.
> 
> At least two of the three jihadists who plotted to attack the Holsworthy army base arrived in Australia pre 2007.




I agree SirRumpole. So maybe we should start being restrictive of who we let into this country.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 June 2014)

dutchie said:


> I agree SirRumpole. So maybe we should start being restrictive of who we let into this country.




Obviously so. It should have been done a long time ago. Just don't any applications from people living in countries where we know there is a high Muslim population. Howard was right about changing the "racial mix". Has the government got the guts to carry out that policy ?


----------



## Calliope (25 June 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Obviously so. It should have been done a long time ago. Just don't any applications from people living in countries where we know there is a high Muslim population. Howard was right about changing the "racial mix". Has the government got the guts to carry out that policy ?




Yes most of our jihadists are home-grown The UK has a much greater problem being one of the main recruiting grounds for ISIS terrorists.



> In the UK, between 2001 and 2009, the Muslim population increased roughly 10 times faster than the rest of the population.[31]



Wikipedia


----------



## Knobby22 (25 June 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Obviously so. It should have been done a long time ago. Just don't any applications from people living in countries where we know there is a high Muslim population. Howard was right about changing the "racial mix". Has the government got the guts to carry out that policy ?




We can't do that. Malaysia and Indonesia would cause us of of problems if we tried.


----------



## drsmith (28 June 2014)

An asylum boat with 153 claiming to be Sri-Lankans is making the attempt, allegedly departing from India.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-28/asylum-boat-in-trouble-off-christmas-island/5556892


----------



## drsmith (28 June 2014)

Fairfax has summarised boat arrival attempts since the swearing in of the Abbott Government (Sept 18) as follows,



> Boats :36
> Passengers: 1632
> Drownings: 47
> Boats per 100 days: 12.72
> Drownings per 1000 passengers: 28.8




The total of 1632 appears to include those who have been successfully turned back and those who have drowned.

http://www.smh.com.au/data-point/the-human-tide

Of those, the most recent 8 have been successfully turned back (since the last successful boat venture on Dec 19). In that time, only 2 IMA's have been accepted by Australian authorities, both on medical grounds.

The data table has the last boat attempt from Indonesia on 5-Feb-14. 

http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2013/the-human-tide/as_data/asylum_seekers_dataset.csv

This was the one where passengers were combined from two boats into one and returned to Indonesia. This was in early May and was associated with Tony Abbott cancelling a trip to Indonesia. There have been no reported boat attempts from Indonesia since. 

IIRC, the number of IMA's transferred to immigration authorities since this government was sworn in is 1108.


----------



## drsmith (28 June 2014)

drsmith said:


> An asylum boat with 153 claiming to be Sri-Lankans is making the attempt, allegedly departing from India.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-28/asylum-boat-in-trouble-off-christmas-island/5556892



Another report on the above boat,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...enies-refugees-in-trouble-20140628-zspal.html



> “What we are concerned about is that the Australian government will try to get a commercial boat from the area to try to pick them up,” said Rintoul. “They did that in the Indian ocean last year, but that boat was much further away from Australia than this one. They need assistance now, before it becomes an emergency.”


----------



## drsmith (28 June 2014)

There's also a media report of a second boat between Java and Christmas Island with 50 passengers.



> The other, carrying about 50 passengers, had been intercepted by the Australian Customs vessel Triton between Christmas Island and Java.




They'll be going back either under their own steam or in a bright orange lifeboat.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/24340227/abbott-faces-boat-challenge/


----------



## drsmith (28 June 2014)

drsmith said:


> Another report on the above boat,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...enies-refugees-in-trouble-20140628-zspal.html



Something's happened,



> By 1.45pm, Mr Rintoul said satellite telephone calls to the boat were not connecting and he had no way of knowing if disaster had struck.
> 
> The Australian Maritime Safety Authority was alerted about the boat on Friday and is understood to have been monitoring it today.
> 
> AMSA would not comment and a spokesman said Customs and Border Protection was handling the case.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...action-coalition/story-e6frg6n6-1226969722347


----------



## drsmith (30 June 2014)

No unloading of IMA's at Christmas Island yet even though Alannah Joan Geraldine Cecilia MacTiernan's been there as the Labor welcoming committee.


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2014)

drsmith said:


> No unloading of IMA's at Christmas Island yet even though Alannah Joan Geraldine Cecilia MacTiernan's been there as the Labor welcoming committee.




Enough said.


----------



## drsmith (30 June 2014)

The latest in the media,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...972802152?nk=cc05baf451ea975b0ae9091c20e44e7f



> The boat carrying Tamils from southern India is unlikely to be turned back due to the large distance involved and the risk to the 150 people on board.
> 
> And the Indonesian vessel presents a risky diplomatic challenge in the lead up to Indonesian Presidential elections.



In relation to the boat from Indonesia, the government doesn't want to lose its mojo now. That will only encourage next time and the poitics will be just as hard to deal with.

With regard to the boat carrying the Tamils, there was a media report this morning that Sri-Lanka would accept them back.



> Sri Lankan high commissioner Admiral Thisara Samarasinghe pledged his gov*ern*ment’s continued support for the border protection policies of “close friend” Australia, including the swift return of boatpeople, amid claims that 153 Tamils were being held aboard an Australian vessel close to Christmas Island after a two-week journey from India.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...th-asylumseekers/story-fn9hm1gu-1226971447699


----------



## sptrawler (1 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The latest in the media,
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...972802152?nk=cc05baf451ea975b0ae9091c20e44e7f
> 
> ...




If they get returned to Sri Lanka, one would think someone is going to lose a lot of money, and they may not be from Sri Lanka.
Nice trip for Allanah though.


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2014)

The Australian,



> PEOPLE might want to know the fate of asylum seekers on two boats off Christmas Island, but Immigration Minister Scott Morrison isn't going to tell.
> 
> "PUBLIC curiosity is not the same as the public interest and the public interest here that I have to assess is what is in the national interest and what is in the national interest is that we maintain the integrity of an operation that is saving lives at sea and protecting the integrity of our borders," Mr Morrison told Sky News on Monday - all in one breath.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...eps-mum-on-boats/story-fn3dxiwe-1226972950995


----------



## So_Cynical (1 July 2014)

Strange that the 100th day of no boat arrivals warranted a media release and speech and yet these 2 new boat arrivals don't...good news to be celebrated and bad news to be not commented on.


----------



## sptrawler (1 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Strange that the 100th day of no boat arrivals warranted a media release and speech and yet these 2 new boat arrivals don't...good news to be celebrated and bad news to be not commented on.




That's probaly because they aren't arrivals, from what I've read. They seem to be pre arrival announcements from refugee advocates.


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2014)

The government is very determined and needs to be. This is a critical battle with the people smugglers and their domestic supporters.

Tony Abbott this morning,



> "I'm not going to comment on the operational detail of what happens on the water but obviously we have been successful up to now," Mr Abbott told ABC radio on Tuesday.
> 
> "It's more than six months since a successful people-smuggling venture made it to Australia and that's a record that the government is determined to maintain."




https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/24356019/abbott-gives-nothing-away-on-asylum-boats/

The government's current silence suggests the lesson from a boat load it failed to return to Indonesia late last year has been learned.

In terms of the international politics, silence is the best public political strategy until the matter is resolved beyond doubt. That's why Labor, the Greens, Fairfax and the ABC are directing the domestic political pressure from where they are.


----------



## banco (1 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The government is very determined and needs to be. This is a critical battle with the people smugglers and their domestic supporters.
> 
> Tony Abbott this morning,
> 
> ...





I'm sure domestic policitcal concerns have nothing to do with the Government's silence....


----------



## So_Cynical (1 July 2014)

sptrawler said:


> That's probaly because they aren't arrivals, from what I've read. They seem to be pre arrival announcements from refugee advocates.




And yet the Xmas Island detention centre has been told to expect "arrivals" im assuming these boats took a longer route travelling in a more westerly path to avoid detection while close to Indonesia, there by getting past the tow back safe zone. :dunno:


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> And yet the Xmas Island detention centre has been told to expect "arrivals" im assuming these boats took a longer route travelling in a more westerly path to avoid detection while close to Indonesia, there by getting past the tow back safe zone. :dunno:



They would need to prepare as a contingency.


----------



## Calliope (1 July 2014)

banco said:


> I'm sure domestic policitcal concerns have nothing to do with the Government's silence....




Oh but is has. Australians  are so fed up with illegal immigrants (and they are certainly not refugees) that retaining government depends on them not getting a further foothold in this country. At the moment the situation is like a soccer match. The game could be lost in the last seconds. In Morrison's case he prefers for us not to know the score until the game is over. Less anguish!


----------



## drsmith (1 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> In Morrison's case he prefers for us not to know the score until the game is over. Less anguish!



Hopefully they'll be Sri-Lankan cooperation to take that boat load back and Indonesian cooperation with the other and the only thing we'll see is an OSB update indicating no boats.

The more time that passes with no news on this, the better.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2014)

The latest, with an interesting twist.



> A senior Sri Lankan navy official said a naval vessel departed yesterday following several days of talks with Australian authorities about how to handle the impending asylum-seeker arrivals — which would have been the first to reach Australian territory in six months. “What I know is that one of our ships has already sailed. We are making a rendezvous with an Australian vessel to take over the people,” the official told The Australian yesterday.
> 
> “We do not know whether the boat they will be transferred from is an Australian civilian vessel, coast guard or navy, but this will be quite a mammoth task to transfer them because of the rough seas. The southwest monsoon has *already started so it is going to be a bit of a task.”
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-handover-at-sea/story-fn59niix-1226974294277

Could the other boat be Sri-Lankans ?

On that, the Fairfax press has this,



> The existence of a second vessel carrying 50 asylum seekers has not been confirmed, but Fairfax Media understands it too may have departed from somewhere other than Indonesia.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...navy-according-to-reports-20140701-zssnn.html

With the silence from the government, actual information on the number of boats nor the numbers on board have of course not been verified.

My bolds.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2014)

ABC this morning,



> Refugee groups are concerned Australia handed the group over to the Sri Lankan Navy.
> 
> A spokesman for the Sri Lankan military told the ABC that has not happened.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/sri-lankan-military-denies-boat-intercepted/5565076

Scott Morrison in an address to Border Protection Command yesterday,



> It has now been six calendar months this year and we have not had a single successful venture. That is because of what you have been able to achieve over these last six months and more. We know that the work we ask you to do is difficult, the decisions we ask you to take in context to the policies that we have can be hard but Border Protection Command has never flinched, not on one occasion. The fact you have been able to follow through and to implement what has been a very strong set of policies has delivered the dividend that I know we all agree has been a very important one for the country. A dividend of saving lives at sea and I know that this place a year ago was very, very busy when we had over 4000 people turn up in one month and I know that people had to be working all sorts of shifts and people from other parts of the organisation were coming in and helping and the contrast with what we see today and in this month and in this year could not be more stark.




http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/sm/2014/sm215959.htm


----------



## noco (2 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> ABC this morning,
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Doc, this is driving Richard Marles ( shadow minister for Immigration) and his Fabian Society comrades insane.....

The silence is Golden  and it is frustrating them to the point whereby they are unable to gain any political point scoring........Marles is a compulsive liar and has been caught out on so many occasions....it does not matter to him when the news is good, he will go out of his way make it look bad......He is unbelievable.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2014)

noco said:


> Doc, this is driving Richard Marles ( shadow minister for Immigration) and his Fabian Society comrades insane.....
> 
> The silence is Golden  and it is frustrating them to the point whereby they are unable to gain any political point scoring........Marles is a compulsive liar and has been caught out on so many occasions....it does not matter to him when the news is good, he will go out of his way make it look bad......He is unbelievable.



Alannah MacTiernan after her weekend trip is left to talk about, well, not very much. She's now speculating we're shipping them direct to Manus. 

http://media.smh.com.au/news/federal-politics/asylum-seekers-why-the-secrecy-5559671.html

From what I can tell, there have been no transfers from Xmas to Manus since the riots earlier this year and numbers there have been gradually declining with voluntary returns.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2014)

Latest in the Fairfax press,



> The second asylum seeker boat to recently attempt the journey to Australia has been intercepted by Australian officials who allegedly screened people on board via a teleconference.
> 
> A source from the immigration department has confirmed the ACV Triton, a 98-metre Australian customs patrol boat, intercepted the asylum seeker vessel on the weekend.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...at-sea-via-teleconference-20140702-3b837.html

The Australian is reporting the above 50 will be transferred to Sri-Lankan authorities mid-ocean and more interestingly, several mid-ocean transfers of asylum-seekers between Australian and Indonesian authorities have occurred in recent months.



> A BOATLOAD of Sri Lankan asylum-seekers found near Cocos Island has been picked up by Australian authorities and will be handed over to the Sri Lankan navy, an official navy spokesman has confirmed.
> 
> A second senior Sri Lankan navy official told The Australian the asylum-seekers, picked up on a separate boat from that believed to have left southern India in mid-June, would be transferred to a Sri Lankan naval vessel in mid-ocean, in rough seas whipped up the monsoon.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...seeker-transfer/story-fn9hm1gu-1226975328157#

My bolds.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> several mid-ocean transfers of asylum-seekers between Australian and Indonesian authorities have occurred in recent months.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...seeker-transfer/story-fn9hm1gu-1226975328157#



In the broader context of that story, this may be a reference to transfers that took place last year. 

With a bright orange lifeboat turning up on Indonesian shores as recently as May, I doubt maritime transfers to Indonesian authorities have resumed since the spying revelations.


----------



## noco (2 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> Alannah MacTiernan after her weekend trip is left to talk about, well, not very much. She's now speculating we're shipping them direct to Manus.
> 
> http://media.smh.com.au/news/federal-politics/asylum-seekers-why-the-secrecy-5559671.html
> 
> From what I can tell, there have been no transfers from Xmas to Manus since the riots earlier this year and numbers there have been gradually declining with voluntary returns.




That Alannah MacTierrnan rambled on about how this is going to affect our relationship with Indonesia with up coming election.

This boat from India or Sri-Lanka has nothing to do with Indonesia......these dingbats will say and do anything for attention to gain some political mileage.....they just cannot stand the Coalitions success after saying back in 2013, the boats  could not be turned back.

The Labor Party are still trying to claim the success was due to their policies of off shore processing.......they were dragged kicking and screaming and finally Rudd introduced it back in August 2013 to save the furniture.

Their frustration is showing up every time they front the media.......they are embarrassing to themselves and would be better off keeping their mouths in the closed position.


----------



## noco (2 July 2014)

Will someone please pass this message on to Richard Marles and Alannah Mac Tiernan.


HMAS Glenelg and the Ocean Protector in the sea off Christmas Island. Source: Supplied

A BOATLOAD of Sri Lankan asylum-seekers found near Cocos Island at the weekend is being transported by Australian authorities to a treacherous mid-ocean transfer to a Sri Lankan naval *vessel in the midst of the deadly south-west monsoon.

A senior Sri Lankan navy official said a naval vessel departed yesterday following several days of talks with Australian authorities about how to handle the impending asylum-seeker arrivals ”” which would have been the first to reach Australian territory in six months. “What I know is that one of our ships has already sailed. We are making a rendezvous with an Australian vessel to take over the people,” the official told The Australian yesterday.

“We do not know whether the boat they will be transferred from is an Australian civilian vessel, coast guard or navy, but this will be quite a mammoth task to transfer them because of the rough seas. The southwest monsoon has *already started so it is going to be a bit of a task.”

A Sri Lankan navy spokesman confirmed discussions were under way with Canberra, and that the asylum-seekers had been picked up by Australian authorities.

“They will be handed over to the Sri Lankan navy,” he said.

However he denied that a Sri Lankan vessel had already been dispatched. He said the handover did not involve the estimated 153 Sri Lankans, many of them from the minority Tamil community, who left the south Indian fishing port of Pondicherry on June 13.

That boat was believed to have been 250km shy of Christmas Island last Friday when occupants reported they were running out of water and oil. There was speculation it had been intercepted by an Australian Customs vessel.

Last night a spokesman for Immigration Minister Scott Morrison declined to either confirm or deny that a transfer operation was under way.

“Responding to speculative claims is contrary to the policy and practice of Operation Sovereign Borders as described by the Joint Agency Task Force,” he said.

The Sri Lankan navy’s confirmation of its involvement yesterday is the first indication that Australian authorities both knew of at least one vessel and have been negotiating for its return.

It is not known how many *asylum-seekers will be transferred to Sri Lankan custody from the boat found off Cocos island.

Several mid-ocean transfers of asylum-seekers between Australian and Indonesian authorities have occurred in recent months. But the far more dangerous operation planned for late this week or early next week in the monsoonal Indian Ocean will be only the second time such a handover has taken place in as many years.

In July 2012, The Australian was on board the SLNS Samudura when it met a French supertanker, Euronav, for an ocean transfer of 28 Sri Lankans. The Euronav had been convinced by Australian authorities to rescue the asylum- seekers and divert to Sri Lankan waters to meet the Samudura.


----------



## drsmith (3 July 2014)

The deed is either done or very close to being done.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...heAustralianNewsNDM (The Australian | News |)


----------



## drsmith (3 July 2014)

As the hopes of the Fairfax press fade, they've gotten a little ahead of themselves.



> Commission slams transfer at sea as clear rights breach
> 
> Date *July 4*, 2014 37 reading now
> 
> ...




Unless I've missed a day, it's only July 3.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/comm...ea-as-clear-rights-breach-20140703-3bbi1.html



> Keheliya Rambukwella, Sri Lanka's Media and Information Minister, said a transfer at sea would take place. ''They will be accepted and received by the [Sri Lankan] navy and the normal procedures will take place from there onward,'' he said.




My bolds.


----------



## Calliope (4 July 2014)

I would have thought the Catholic Bishops have enough problems to sort out in their own dioceses wthout  sticking their noses into border protection.



> The UNHCR and the Australian Catholic Bishops joined the voices of opposition to the government’s hand-back policy yesterday
> .
> To offer a blanket response that unfairly treats all asylum-seekers as illegal, and returns them to the country from which they have fled, is both immoral and contrary to our international obligations as a signatory to the Refugee Convention,” said Maurizio Pettena, the director of the Australian Catholic Migrant and Refugee Office.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-for-new-zealand/story-fn9hm1gu-1226977131793


----------



## drsmith (5 July 2014)

The Fairfax press just can't come to terms with the success that been this government's border protection policies.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...s-ghosts-on-the-high-seas-20140704-zsw0g.html


----------



## Calliope (5 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Fairfax press just can't come to terms with the success that been this government's border prnaval patrols.otection policies.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...s-ghosts-on-the-high-seas-20140704-zsw0g.html







> Given that 57 of the people from the fishing trawler had already fled from Sri Lanka to India, Ben Saul says Australia should, at the very least, send them back to India, not to the country of their alleged persecution.




They will have no problem going back to India is they don't like Sri Lanka. These smartarses think that by embarking from India they will avoid Sri Lankan naval patrols. Well they have done their dough.


----------



## Calliope (5 July 2014)

Rumpy said, off topic, on another thread;



> The fact is that Rudd in his dying days as PM announced that no asylum seeker who came here by boat without our permission would be settled in Australia.
> 
> I don't know why people are not happy with that. All this military chest beating sovereign border stuff is pure show, something to be different from Labor and designed to appeal to people like you even if it does not achieve anything more than Labor's Manus island policy, but costs a lot more taxpayers money




I am afraid you are wrong Rumpy. What appeals to me and anyone else with any common sense, is that it is much cheaper to intercept illegals at sea and send them back to where they came from, than to let them land here and then send them to Manus or Nauru and house them indefinately.  

And don't worry too much about the Tamils. If they don't like Sri Lanka they can always go to India where all their mates are.


----------



## noco (5 July 2014)

I put you on the right thread.




banco said:


> I'm sorry but Rudd said a lot of stuff.  For good or ill I can't imagine a Labor Government going to the lengths that Morrision etc. has been willing to go to.  To take but one example the handover of the Sri Lankans to the Sri Lankan navy is almost certainly a breach of Australia's treaty obligations (assuming it goes ahead).




It does not matter who they are or where they come from, they are still jumping the que.

We have a right to send them back and suggest that they go through the correct channels of the UNHCR in a legal and orderly manner....FULL STOP....The government has a quota of immigrants and it should be adhered to....if they want to try the back door and get rejected, then it is their head.


----------



## banco (6 July 2014)

noco said:


> I put you on the right thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Noco I know your knowledge of international law is less than zero and if you want to argue Australia should just say %$$% international law that's one argument but let's not pretend what they are doing isn't illegal under international law.  You ever think one of the reasons for the all the secrecy is the Government is terrified of ending up in Court and having to try to argue why this is legal?


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## noco (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> Noco I know your knowledge of international law is less than zero and if you want to argue Australia should just say %$$% international law that's one argument but let's not pretend what they are doing isn't illegal under international law.  You ever think one of the reasons for the all the secrecy is the Government is terrified of ending up in Court and having to try to argue why this is legal?




How can you be less than zero?......Did you ever go to school and study maths?......Or perhaps you are too young to go to school...your brain has to be developed before they will let you in.....normally 5 or 6 years of age.

You certainly know how to cherry pick.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Rumpy said, off topic, on another thread;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The refugees are after the benefits of the Australian social security system. They won't get those on Nauru or Manus, so they won't bother coming in the first place. We don't house people on Manus or Nauru indefinitely. If they are found to be genuine refugees they get released and our responsibility for them is ended.


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## orr (6 July 2014)

I urge you all to come and play in the serendipitous and plushly appointed gaming rooms of my newest Crown Casino, here  on  the lapping  shores of the Indian Oceans most peaceful and well administered ex-colonial Island outposts. As any 'correct thinking' government will attest.
 Mummy's $500k donation to the the Party now  in Government in the lead up to the last election has put a gleaming polish on the steaming bulbous heap, that other Sovereign Incompetent Governments, lets not mention these garrulous self severing self promoting political minnows Canadian and UK, ahh pifflers, refer to as Sri Lanka's human rights record. 
  For those feeling extra 'lucky', as a courtesy Crown will pick you up in a white van from the airport or any where else .....

J.P  aka _'goo horra'_

p.s _'kunda-bear gol'_


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## Calliope (6 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The refugees are after the benefits of the Australian social security system.




Ah. Now we get to the nub of it. Who do you think has to right to decide who gets the benefits of Australia's  social security system? The Tamils, the people smugglers or us?


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## IFocus (6 July 2014)

Watching the facts on the ABC insiders this morning David Marr spells out the legal obligations regarding the Tamil boat, if they boarded and removed them outside of our territorial waters then that would be serious.

If any of those Tamils get bumped off by the Sri Lanka's death squads that they have been handed over to then what is it that Australia stands for? 

The secrecy that is in place by Abbott is an absolute abhorrence only bad things come from such government practices repeated lies and secrecy what a combination.


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## noco (6 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Watching the facts on the ABC insiders this morning David Marr spells out the legal obligations regarding the Tamil boat, if they boarded and removed them outside of our territorial waters then that would be serious.
> 
> If any of those Tamils get bumped off by the Sri Lanka's death squads that they have been handed over to then what is it that Australia stands for?
> 
> The secrecy that is in place by Abbott is an absolute abhorrence only bad things come from such government practices repeated lies and secrecy what a combination.




And it is driving you lefties insane not knowing what is happening to allow you to get your propaganda machine operating through the ABC...tough luck sunshine.


----------



## drsmith (6 July 2014)

Kevin Rudd stopped the boats according to David Marr.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Ah. Now we get to the nub of it. Who do you think has to right to decide who gets the benefits of Australia's  social security system? The Tamils, the people smugglers or us?




Talk about selective reading. I repeat, the refugees don't get access to our social security system on Manus or Nauru. 

You should be happy with that, instead your attitude seems to be  that the worse we treat these people the better we are as a society. Why not just shoot the bastards eh ? Would that make you happy ?


----------



## drsmith (6 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Talk about selective reading. I repeat, the refugees don't get access to our social security system on Manus or Nauru.



Immigration detention was overwhelmed under the policies of Labor and there's still a significant social security legacy as a consequence of that.


----------



## Calliope (6 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Talk about selective reading.




Selective reading? you said;  



> The refugees are after the benefits of the Australian social security system.




and I agree with that. It's called sugar on the table.



> You should be happy with that, instead your attitude seems to be that the worse we treat these people the better we are as a society. Why not just shoot the bastards eh ? Would that make you happy ?




There's no need to throw a hissy-fit.


----------



## drsmith (6 July 2014)

noco said:


> And it is driving you lefties insane not knowing what is happening to allow you to get your propaganda machine operating through the ABC...tough luck sunshine.



Another who can't come to terms with the success of the current government's border security policies.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...n-pythonesque-proportions-20140704-zsw9n.html


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## noco (6 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd stopped the boats according to David Marr.




Doc, what else would you expect from David Marr who is a member of the Fabian society.


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## banco (6 July 2014)

noco said:


> How can you be less than zero?......Did you ever go to school and study maths?......Or perhaps you are too young to go to school...your brain has to be developed before they will let you in.....normally 5 or 6 years of age.
> 
> You certainly know how to cherry pick.




Hardly cherry picking. Just noting that you have zero idea about Australia's treaty obligations and think Australia can do anything it wants with regards to asylum seekers.


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## noco (6 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Watching the facts on the ABC insiders this morning David Marr spells out the legal obligations regarding the Tamil boat, if they boarded and removed them outside of our territorial waters then that would be serious.
> 
> If any of those Tamils get bumped off by the Sri Lanka's death squads that they have been handed over to then what is it that Australia stands for?
> 
> The secrecy that is in place by Abbott is an absolute abhorrence only bad things come from such government practices repeated lies and secrecy what a combination.




Scott Morrison is honoring  the arrangement between the Sri Lankin Government and the Rudd Government.

So what is the problem?


----------



## banco (6 July 2014)

noco said:


> Scott Morrison is honoring  the arrangement between the Sri Lankin Government and the Rudd Government.
> 
> So what is the problem?




Again you are showing your ignorance.  You can't have an agreement with another country that is in violation of your treaty obligations and broader international law. Does the phrase non-refoulment mean anything you to?


----------



## Calliope (6 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> The secrecy that is in place by Abbott is an absolute abhorrence *only bad things come from such government practices repeated lies and secrecy what a combination*.




This is pretty trivial stuff for you to get so upset about FC. As stickler for open government you must be happy that The Royal Commission on Union Corruption will throw the spotlight on the secret complicity bwtween Labor parliamentarians and corrupt union officials. Labor is happy to take the union members' money while turning a blind eye to extortsion, thuggery and the stand-over tactics employed by the leaders of AWU and CMFEU and others.


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## SirRumpole (6 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> This is pretty trivial stuff for you to get so upset about FC. As stickler for open government you must be happy that The Royal Commission on Union Corruption will throw the spotlight on the secret complicity bwtween Labor parliamentarians and corrupt union officials. Labor is happy to take the union members' money while turning a blind eye to extortsion, thuggery and the stand-over tactics employed by the leaders of AWU and CMFEU and others.




Have you ever considered being a magician ? Your grasp of misdirection and distraction is masterful.


----------



## Calliope (6 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you ever considered being a magician ? Your grasp of misdirection and distraction is masterful.




Yes, I know it was off topic Rumpy. I just wanted to add a little balance to lefty whinging about Government lack of transparency. After all "people who live in glass houses etc."


----------



## drsmith (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> Again you are showing your ignorance.  You can't have an agreement with another country that is in violation of your treaty obligations and broader international law. Does the phrase non-refoulment mean anything you to?



The problem is that the vast majority coming or attempting to come by boat are economic refugees. This was admitted by Labor's Bob Carr himself. 

Even David Marr realised it was out of hand under the precious Labor government and acknowledged as much last year on Insiders.

Other western countries will be looking very closely at what this government is doing but the context behind closed doors at least will not be in criticism but in how they can better manage their own border security and that's what worries the UNHCR.

What the UNHCR needs to realise is that a country's immigration program is best managed from within and not from third party people smuggling operations only interested in making a buck, misplaced progressive sympathy or Green ideological dogma against sovereign nationhood.

No nation can solve the worlds problems simply by importing them and hoping for the best which seems to be about where the UNHCR stands. That's just a road ultimately to chaos and one element of that is the drownings at sea that we have already seen. It needs to be much more structured, not lose its way over time and individual nations need to be in control of their own program which is what this government is setting out to achieve.


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## Julia (6 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The problem is that the vast majority coming or attempting to come by boat are economic refugees. This was admitted by Labor's Bob Carr himself.
> 
> Even David Marr realised it was out of hand under the precious Labor government and acknowledged as much last year on Insiders.
> 
> ...



Exactly.  Really well expressed.   Like most bodies associated with the United Nations, the UNHCR is undoubtedly well meaning, but ineffectual.


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## banco (6 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The problem is that the vast majority coming or attempting to come by boat are economic refugees. This was admitted by Labor's Bob Carr himself.
> 
> Even David Marr realised it was out of hand under the precious Labor government and acknowledged as much last year on Insiders.
> 
> ...




This might all be true but it doesn't mean Australia isn't in violation of its treaty obligations.  If the Government thinks the UN Refugee Convention is outdated (which they've certainly hinted at) they should have the balls to withdraw from it rather than remain a signatory while violating it.  Indonesia isn't a signatory.  Perhaps we can join their august company.


----------



## Calliope (6 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> What the UNHCR needs to realise is that a country's immigration program is best managed from within and not from third party people smuggling operations only interested in making a buck, misplaced progressive sympathy or Green ideological dogma against sovereign nationhood.




The UNHCR is a waste of space. Out of the current membership the majority would be net exporters of refugees. They can easily outvote Western countries on any issue.

Current Members:
Afghanistan, Algeria, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Benin, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Congo, Costa Rica, CÃ´te d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Denmark, Djibouti, Ecuador, Egypt, Estonia, Ethiopia, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guinea, Holy See, Hungary, India, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Kenya, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Mexico, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Senegal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sudan, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Togo, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uganda, United Kingdom, United Republic of Tanzania, United States of America, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of), Yemen, Zambia.


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## SirRumpole (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> This might all be true but it doesn't mean Australia isn't in violation of its treaty obligations.  If the Government thinks the UN Refugee Convention is outdated (which they've certainly hinted at) they should have the balls to withdraw from it rather than remain a signatory while violating it.  Indonesia isn't a signatory.  Perhaps we can join their august company.




Exactly. No refugees coming here uninvited is a reasonable aspiration, but some people tend to get confused between ends and means. Is potentially making ourselves an international pariah by overbearing military tactics worth the result in the long run ? 

And if , as the government says, all is above board in regard to our international obligations, why keep our operations a secret ? Surely announcing the handover of asylum seekers to the country of their origin would be a public relations coup ? Keep the local population satisfied our borders are controlled, discourage others from making the crossing, and show the internationals that we are keeping to our treaty obligations. The fact that our government is telling us nothing invites suspicion of the tactics or results.


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## noco (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> Again you are showing your ignorance.  You can't have an agreement with another country that is in violation of your treaty obligations and broader international law. Does the phrase non-refoulment mean anything you to?




Read my bolds....Now who is the ignorant one?????




Tough Australian policy fails to discourage Sri Lankan asylum seekers

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"Don't be led by illegal boat operators" warns a government billboard in the country's eastern Batticaloa District
COLOMBO, 29 novembre 2013 (IRIN) - *Heightened border surveillance in Sri Lanka, as well as recent agreements between Australia and Sri Lanka to divert and deport would-be asylum seekers, have slashed the number of Sri Lankans reaching Australia’s shores by boat, say Australian authorities. *Yet these measures have failed to discourage an increasing number – mostly from the island’s former conflict zones in the north and east – from attempting the dangerous journey.

In 2013 (up to 7 November) close to 2,000 Sri Lankan asylum seekers arrived by sea in Australian territories such as Christmas Island, Ashmore Reef and Cocos (Keeling) Islands, according to Australia’s Customs and Border Protection office. In 2012, three times as many Sri Lankans reached Australia’s shores.

Fighting back

Australia started deporting Sri Lankan would-be immigrants in August 2012 (543 from January to November 2013),diverting others to off-shore processing centres in the neighbouring island countries of Papua New Guinea and Nauru, and putting up cautionary billboards at popular departure points in Sri Lanka’s north and east.

“The programme is working well. The return policy and rapid transfers appear to have an impact on would-be immigrants,” an official with the Australian High Commission in Sri Lanka told IRIN.

Undeterred

Even so, more and more people are trying to leave Sri Lanka, especially in the north, where a 26-year civil war destroyed infrastructure and caused severe suffering. Hostilities ended some four years ago between Sri Lanka’s security forces and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) rebels, who fought for a separate homeland, but economic recovery has been slow. Jobs are hard to find, making people willing to risk their lives escaping by boat.

Most migrants are unmarried young men with low levels of education, while older men with families and women are less inclined to risk the crossing, according to the Point Pedro Institute of Development, located in the northern district of Jaffna.

Muttukrishna Sarvananthan, an economist and principal researcher at the institute, said livelihoods in the north have improved since 2010, but more investment is needed to speed up recovery.

“Although the unemployment rate had dropped [to 27.4 percent in 2012, from 32.8 percent the year before], it is still more than double the national average in 2012,” he pointed out to IRIN in an email.

Economic migrants?

The unpublished results of a 2012 survey by the institute found that the main factors driving migration - legal and illegal - included poor living conditions (reported by 74 percent of participants) and lack of secure employment opportunities (41 percent), while fear of the military, which has retained a strong presence, had lower importance (18 percent). The institute pointed out the “relatively small” sample size, and need for further research.

Youths in the north reported being more fearful of persecution, and also more willing, to leave the island than those in the east.

Interviews conducted on Australian shores with Sri Lankan asylum seekers in 2012 confirmed that most had left for economic reasons, disqualifying them from protection under international conventions.

Marimuttu Valliamma*, 61, a resident of the northern town of Kilinochchi, whose 24-year-old son returned home in 2012 after an unsuccessful sea crossing to Australia, told IRIN the “madness” of migration had “destroyed” her family.

“He [my son] sold the only land we had to raise the money, and got my only valuables – a gold chain and earrings – also pawned, promising to redeem them when he gets paid the first time. He said there [was] no future in Sri Lanka as there were no jobs.”

She told IRIN her son had been promised a job in Australia, and assumed his passage was legal – a falsehood the Sri Lankan navy exposed when it stopped his boat.

Others deny they left because of poverty. “After 2010 [post-war], we expected normalcy. Instead, youths involved in opposition political activities felt under [so much] pressure that many felt compelled to leave the island,” said Sugunan Vaithilingam*, 28, a supporter of the key Tamil political party, Tamil National Alliance (TNA), who paid the equivalent of nearly US$11,400 to a smuggler in 2011 to get to Australia.

He was also turned back.

Since July 2013, Sri Lankans deemed eligible for refugee status by Australia’s Department of Immigration and Citizenship have been sent for off-shore processing and detention on either Papua New Guinea or Nauru. Amnesty International has described the facility in Nauru as a “toxic mix of uncertainty, unlawful detention and inhumane conditions”

The UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) also recently condemned the harsh conditions and legal shortcomings in Australia’s off-shore detention centres.

Activists have deemed Australia’s “enhanced screening”, approved in late 2012, as a violation of the country’s obligations under international treaties to assume asylum seekers will not face persecution in their home countries unless proven otherwise before repatriation. 

Australian authorities deported Alagan Kumarvel*, 27, in 2012 after holding him in custody on Christmas Island for one month. “If I have to do it again, I would do so. There is nothing for me here [Sri Lanka]. But I have no means of making a second attempt. We were told by the boat operators ‘Australia [is] a humanitarian land’,” he told IRIN in Jaffna District, where he helps run a small fishing boat.

Good blokes

The researcher, Sarvananthan, said why Australia was a country of choice for Sri Lankan migrants had a lot to do with its record of humanitarian assistance. “This… is largely due to the number of Australian volunteers who arrived [in the north] during the ceasefire [2002-2004] between the Sri Lankan government and the Liberation Tigers, and post-tsunami [in 2004] in the north and the east].” 

More recently, Australia invested nearly $187 million in Sri Lanka from 2010 to 2013, which included rebuilding communities affected by conflict. Its programme strategy until 2016 emphasizes a “post-conflict” approach, in which “all aid interventions Australia supports will be conceived, managed and evaluated in a way that is sensitive to the post-conflict environment.
Australia does this because social and economic progress will be undermined if peace is not sustained”.

As the number of youths fleeing the island increases, Canberra has financed local radio broadcasts in the dominant language of the north, Tamil, warning listeners that "Australia has toughened its immigration laws. Illegal entry will not be allowed on Australian soil. Boats will be diverted to Papua New Guinea.”

In November 2013 there were nearly 5,000 Sri Lankans in Australian immigration detention facilities on Nauru and Papua New Guinea.

dh/pt/he

Theme (s): Migration, Paix et sÃ©curitÃ©, RÃ©fugiÃ©s et dÃ©placÃ©s,
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## Calliope (6 July 2014)

Poor old Fraser. He still has his knickers in a knot since losing them in a seedy hotel in Memphis. I think he is stark raving mad.:screwy:



> Former Liberal prime minister Malcolm Fraser has said on Twitter that Tamil asylum seekers being handed back to Sri Lanka at sea was redolent of handing over Jews to the Nazis in the 1930s.


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## IFocus (6 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The problem is that the vast majority coming or attempting to come by boat are economic refugees. This was admitted by Labor's Bob Carr himself.
> 
> Even David Marr realised it was out of hand under the precious Labor government and acknowledged as much last year on Insiders.
> 
> ...




Just the minor issue of secrecy by the Australian government as it carrys out violations regarding international law outside of territorial waters and returning people to a government carrying out Extra-judicial killings.

No doubt you and others here fully support this beating your chests about stopping the boats and Labor are really bad blah blah...............what is you stand for certainly its not about open democratic government and the conventions of international law.

Again government by lies repeated ad nauseam combined with secrecy is a lethal mix bad things happen.

Now its started where will it stop?


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## DB008 (6 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Just the minor issue of secrecy by the Australian government as it carrys out violations regarding international law outside of territorial waters and returning people to a government carrying out Extra-judicial killings.
> 
> No doubt you and others here fully support this beating your chests about stopping the boats and Labor are really bad blah blah...............what is you stand for certainly its not about open democratic government and the conventions of international law.
> 
> ...




Blah...Blah...Blah...

The policy is working.

Howard had it right (Pacific solution). Rudd/Gillard stuffed it. Abbott has once again fixed it. 

I predict that once the Libs lose (which they will eventually), it will be open boarders once again...

Not that hard to understand. And l'm a simple peron.


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## banco (6 July 2014)

noco said:


> Read my bolds....Now who is the ignorant one?????
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They can have whatever MOUs they like Australia still has to act in accordance with its treaty obligations.


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## noco (6 July 2014)

http://www.hotheads.com.au/immigrants.htm is a must read for those who are ignorant or naive as what is going on with people smuggling.

Indonesia, being a predominately Islamic country, are well and truly involved in aiding and abetting Muslims to infiltrate the Western World and Australia is well and truly included.

The Islamic movements ambition is to have an Islamic state throughout the world  and to have world domination. 


http://www.hotheads.com.au/immigrants.htm
NOTE: If you arrived at this page without seeing a menu, please click on this link ... Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, none of which have a policy or track record of persecuting or ... Most of these illegal immigrant people arrive in Australian waters with no ... Anybody who has travelled overseas will attest to this .


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## noco (6 July 2014)

noco said:


> http://www.hotheads.com.au/immigrants.htm is a must read for those who are ignorant or naive as what is going on with people smuggling.
> 
> Indonesia, being a predominately Islamic country, are well and truly involved in aiding and abetting Muslims to infiltrate the Western World and Australia is well and truly included.
> 
> ...





Here is an extract from that link portraying how Indonesia is using Australia.

* INDONESIA IS NOT AUSTRALIA'S FRIEND
*
For all the propaganda emanating from some misguided Australian politicians about Indonesia being a friend and ally of Australia, this is a blatant lie. Over the years and decades, Indonesia has proven that it is no friend of Australia, from deliberately murdering Australian journalists in East Timor to facilitating the flood of illegal immigrants to Australia. At least the Abbott Liberal government put a stop to the way Indonesia was screwing Australia with its people smuggling racket..

Australia gives massive foreign aid to Indonesia. But does Indonesia reciprocate by alleviating problems caused by its people to Australia? Not at all. In 2012, Australia gave Indonesia over half a billion dollars to upgrade Islamic schools - in other words, madrassas that teach Indonesian Muslim kids how to be vicious Jihadists. In the meantime, Australian schools were crumbling for lack of funds.

Australia gave Indonesia more than half a billion dollars in foreign aid to upgrade infrastructure and at the same time, Indonesia spent $8 billion to upgrade its military. Australia's military is a joke because of lack of funding, but the idiotic Australian government handed out enormous sums to Indonesia, which allowed Indonesia to boost its military by letting Australia fund the infrastructure that Indonesia should have been funding, instead of spending so much on its military.

Australia gave Indonesia a number of patrol vessels that could be used to intercept and stop the illegal immigrant boatpeople from even leaving Indonesian waters for Australia. What did the Indonesians do? They sent those boats to the north of Indonesia, refusing to deploy them to stop the people smuggling traffic. Australia also gave Indonesia a number of military aircraft. Are they being used to maintain surveillance on illegal boatpeople leaving Indonesia? Not at all.

*Australia needs to understand that Indonesia, a Muslim nation, has a vested interest in flooding Australia with Muslim immigrants - it's part of The Hijra, the Muslim Doctrine of Migration. On top of that, Indonesia had been making enormous amounts of money by facilitating the people smuggling racket, so it was a win-win situation for Indonesia. Its politicians made all the right noises to seem as if they were doing something, but they did the opposite, then informed Australia that they would not accept any boatpeople who illegally depart Indonesia, despite their legal obligations to do so. Well bad luck for them, because the Abbott Liberal government pushed them all back to Indonesia anyway.*

Australia needs to treat Indonesia as an adversary, not an ally or friend. All foreign aid should be cut off. All donations of hardware such as aircraft or vessels should be stopped permanently. If Indonesia refuses to accept its legal responsibility to repatriate these boatpeople who depart illegally from Indonesia, then Australia needs to drag Indonesia to the International Court of Justice and force Indonesia to do so.


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## Julia (6 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Just the minor issue of secrecy by the Australian government as it carrys out violations regarding international law outside of territorial waters and returning people to a government carrying out Extra-judicial killings.



IFocus, could you kindly provide a link to the legislation that you are referring to when you say the government is 'violating international law"?
Thanks.


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## banco (6 July 2014)

They are arguably violating article 33 of the UN refugee convention (of which Australia is a signatory).  As I mentioned before one reason for all the secrecy is the Government probably thinks there's a good chance they would lose if this went to court (the High Court has ruled against the Government on issues related to refugees quite a lot lately).


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## Calliope (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> They are arguably violating article 33 of the UN refugee convention (of which Australia is a signatory).  As I mentioned before one reason for all the secrecy is the Government probably thinks there's a good chance they would lose if this went to court (the High Court has ruled against the Government on issues related to refugees quite a lot lately).




Banco it's hard to believe that anyone in his right mind would want to encourage illegal immigrants. Besides being an Abbott hater why is it that you are whining about us not taking orders from the UNHCR kangaroo court which is stacked with mainly undemocratic countries or dictatorships. We can rightly tell them to butt out.


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> They are arguably violating article 33 of the UN refugee convention (of which Australia is a signatory).  As I mentioned before one reason for all the secrecy is the Government probably thinks there's a good chance they would lose if this went to court (the High Court has ruled against the Government on issues related to refugees quite a lot lately).




The problem is 'arguably' is in itself arguable, therefore pretty unconvincing.

The real problem is, the flood of dubious asylum seekers, has caused a distrust of genuine refugees.


----------



## banco (6 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Banco it's hard to believe that anyone in his right mind would want to encourage illegal immigrants. Besides being an Abbott hater why is it that you are whining about us not taking orders from the UNHCR kangaroo court which is stacked with mainly undemocratic countries or dictatorships. We can rightly tell them to butt out.




As I said if Australia no longer wants to follow the refugee convention Abbott should have the coverage of his convictions to withdraw.  UNHCR doesn't give anyone orders.  Sounds like something you from a chain email.


----------



## Julia (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> They are arguably violating article 33 of the UN refugee convention (of which Australia is a signatory).  As I mentioned before one reason for all the secrecy is the Government probably thinks there's a good chance they would lose if this went to court (the High Court has ruled against the Government on issues related to refugees quite a lot lately).




I'm prepared to be corrected, via the appropriate evidence, but I would doubt that adhering to the UN refugee convention, something which is entirely voluntary on the part of any country, is the same as adhering to 'international law' as quoted by IFocus.

Australia can easily just withdraw from the UNHCR.  I doubt any country can just 'withdraw' from any international law.


----------



## banco (6 July 2014)

Julia said:


> I'm prepared to be corrected, via the appropriate evidence, but I would doubt that adhering to the UN refugee convention, something which is entirely voluntary on the part of any country, is the same as adhering to 'international law' as quoted by IFocus.
> 
> Australia can easily just withdraw from the UNHCR.  I doubt any country can just 'withdraw' from any international law.




You are way off.  Once you're a signatory to a treaty you are obliged to adhere to it (unless you've made reservations etc. about certain articles etc.).  What would be the point of international treaties if compliance was voluntary?


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> You are way off.  Once you're a signatory to a treaty you are obliged to adhere to it (unless you've made reservations etc. about certain articles etc.).  What would be the point of international treaties if compliance was voluntary?




History is littered with broken treaties. Ask the North American Indians.lol 

Treaties are from an historical perspective, nothing other than memorandum of understanding, an agreement of parties. If a country feels its obligations to the treaty are being abused, they have every right to rectify it.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/source/events/2010/Press_kit/fact_sheet_5_english.pdf

Read the section "How are treaties enforced"

There is no over-arching compulsory judicial system or coercive penal system to address breaches of the provisions set out in treaties or to settle disputes.

If a Country wishes it can withdraw from the treaty, or its obligation to the treaty.


----------



## noco (6 July 2014)

banco said:


> You are way off.  Once you're a signatory to a treaty you are obliged to adhere to it (unless you've made reservations etc. about certain articles etc.).  What would be the point of international treaties if compliance was voluntary?




There many loop holes in the UN convention and it is being exploited by criminals.



 UN CONVENTION ON REFUGEES SHOULD BE RESCINDED

Australia is one of only 19 nations in the world that are signatories to the UN Convention On Refugees, which forces Australia to accept and process economic illegal immigrants as though they were genuine refugees, even when it can be shown that these people deliberately bypassed a number of safe-haven nations and conspired with criminals to smuggle them into Australian waters.

People smugglers in Indonesia latched onto this vulnerability and were exploiting it to the hilt and making hundreds of millions of dollars by enticing people from the Middle East and other areas to Indonesia, then organising boats to sail them unannounced to Australian waters. These crooks knew that because Australia is a signatory to the UN Convention On Refugees, it was obliged to process their claims instead of just turning those boats back to Indonesia.

The UN Convention On Refugees was originally introduced to deal with European refugees after World War Two, a very worthy move, however in 1967 it was expanded to cover refugees everywhere. Most nations realised that if they signed this treaty, they would be exploited, so only a few nations actually participated and unfortunately for them, they have paid a very high price for their stupidity. Instead of being able to assess refugee claimants on their merits and not accepting bogus claimants, those signatory nations are obliged to process all claimants and in many cases, get stuck with them.

Australia will have a problem with this until it gets the backbone to admit that its participation in the UN Convention On Refugees is being wrongfully exploited by criminals,withdraws from this treaty and refuses to accept criminals masquerading as asylum seekers. At least under the Abbott Liberal government, Australia has taken back its right to choose who comes to this nation and ensure that if people claim refugee status, that they really are genuine refugees, not bogus economic immigrants.


----------



## banco (6 July 2014)

sptrawler said:


> History is littered with broken treaties. Ask the North American Indians.lol
> 
> Treaties are from an historical perspective, nothing other than memorandum of understanding, an agreement of parties. If a country feels its obligations to the treaty are being abused, they have every right to rectify it.
> 
> ...




Actually memorandums of understanding have less than treaty status. 

So you agree we are in violation of the treaty we agreed to be bound by? Apparently you think Australia shouldn't comply with promises it has made. 

Australia could withdraw from the treaty but we haven't done so.


----------



## McLovin (6 July 2014)

Julia said:


> I'm prepared to be corrected, via the appropriate evidence, but I would doubt that adhering to the UN refugee convention, something which is entirely voluntary on the part of any country, is the same as adhering to 'international law' as quoted by IFocus.
> 
> Australia can easily just withdraw from the UNHCR.  I doubt any country can just 'withdraw' from any international law.




Virtually all international law is based on treaties and is theoretically voluntary.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2014)

banco said:


> Actually memorandums of understanding have less than treaty status.
> 
> So you agree we are in violation of the treaty we agreed to be bound by? Apparently you think Australia shouldn't comply with promises it has made.
> 
> Australia could withdraw from the treaty but we haven't done so.




Just trying to bring you back to reality, with your grandiouse sweeping statements. 
Which were completely false.

Somewhat like your above statement. 
I didn't agree or dissagree with anything and I didn't say Australia shouldn't comply.
You obviously just make up reality to suit yourself.lol


----------



## So_Cynical (7 July 2014)

As we all suspected, the Noalition is prepared to do anything to stop the boats landing, haven't actually stopped the boats, just stopped them landing or getting close enough for the media to see what's going on, teleconference asylum interviews at sea...WTF.


----------



## noco (7 July 2014)

IMHO, we can set up all these Treaties, International laws, MOU and what ever, but there will always be those who will break these agreements/law or find loop holes and exploit them to the fullest.

We have treaties set up in 1951....then later down the track some political body in their wisdom decides to modify or alter that treaty but finish having some conflict with various segments and in the end the whole thing becomes one tangled mess.

That is what we have Lawyers for to find a way around the obstacles.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2014)

noco said:


> IMHO, we can set up all these Treaties, International laws, MOU and what ever, but there will always be those who will break these agreements/law or find loop holes and exploit them to the fullest.
> 
> We have treaties set up in 1951....then later down the track some political body in their wisdom decides to modify or alter that treaty but finish having some conflict with various segments and in the end the whole thing becomes one tangled mess.
> 
> That is what we have Lawyers for to find a way around the obstacles.




I happen to agree that current governments should not necessarily be bound by treaties that were signed decades ago, but they should at least have the decency to resign publicly from those treaties if they don't intend to observe them.


----------



## noco (7 July 2014)

noco said:


> There many loop holes in the UN convention and it is being exploited by criminals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My bolds emphasis the loop holes exploited by criminals.


----------



## noco (7 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> As we all suspected, the Noalition is prepared to do anything to stop the boats landing, haven't actually stopped the boats, just stopped them landing or getting close enough for the media to see what's going on, teleconference asylum interviews at sea...WTF.




Yes and by jove they are doing a great job in keeping their promise......A promise that the Fabian indoctrinated Green/Labor left wing socialist were hoping would fail so they get their propaganda machine into full swing....Grrrrr


----------



## bunyip (7 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> As we all suspected, the Noalition is prepared to do anything to stop the boats landing, haven't actually stopped the boats, just stopped them landing or getting close enough for the media to see what's going on, teleconference asylum interviews at sea...WTF.




The LNP has stopped nearly all the boats from heading our way, just an odd one still coming, but the important thing is they’ve stopped the illegal boat people from reaching our shores and costing us billions of dollars.
The current situation is a huge improvement on the bad old Rudd/Gillard days that saw us being swamped by thousands of illegal boat people, costing us some 12 thousand million dollars, a figure that's almost certainly blown out much further by now due to the ongoing cost of housing and processing the thousands who came in under Labor’s watch. 

Fortunately we now have a government that’s taking the hard decisions and backing it with the tough action necessary to fix up the mess created by the ALP.


----------



## noco (7 July 2014)

Another extract from "Hot Heads" which spells out what is already happening in other countries and can well happen here if action is not taken.

 ISLAMIFICATION BY STEALTH AND BREEDING

According to some Islamic websites, it seems that there is a long-term scheme to infiltrate first-world Judeo-Christian nations with Muslims until they out-populate the mainstream societies and then gain political power and eventually assume control and impose Muslim hegemony. This is already been seen to occur in France, Denmark, Germany and other western European nations, where the very quickly growing Muslim enclaves have demanded autonomy, their own courts and their own Islamic-based laws. It is quite apparent that this is happening in Australia and it is obvious that these bogus refugees are being funded by external sources. This is scandalous and smacks of a gigantic conspiracy, but this theory seems to be the only one that makes sense.

This is confirmed by the The Hijra - the Muslim Doctrine of Immigration, a deliberate Islamic policy of Muslim migration to secular western nations, in order for them and their offspring to eventually outpopulate the non-Muslims and then seize power in those nations by sheer weight of numbers. There are intermediate steps that Muslims in secular western nations take to soften up their populations before this happens, such as demands for halal food, sharia-compliant financial transactions and the addition of Muslim holidays to public calendars.

Any actions to suppress them are decried as religious or erroneously, racial discrimination. Demands for separate swimming and gym hours for Muslim men and women, demands for identification photos for licences for women wearing hijabs and refusals to handle pork products or don immodest dress in the workplace have appeared. Demands for special Muslim prayer rooms have been made on many public institutions and many workplaces.

US journalist Janet Levy wrote an excellent exposÃ© of this insidious invasion. The Hijra should be required reading for anybody who doubts that their nation is immune to this invasion and it is available on the Downloads page.

A decade ago, the capital city of Britain was jokingly referred to as Londonistan, but it is certainly not a joke any more. Surveys consistently show that the most popular food is no longer roast beef and Yorkshire pudding, but curry and kebabs. It has been reliably reported in British media that Mohammed is now the most popular name for baby boys in Britain. With the ever-increasing numbers of Muslims either arriving illegally to take up residence in Britain and those already living there that are having huge families that are often being funded by the British taxpayer through the National Health Service, the Islamification of Britain is well and truly under way.

If the people of Australia think that what is occurring in Britain and western Europe could not happen here, they are sadly mistaken, because it is already well in progress, with whole areas of Sydney and Melbourne now resembling third-world Middle Eastern ghettoes, where many non-Muslims are being forced to move out through pressure, unpleasantness and intimidation so that Muslim illegal immigrants can be housed in those localities. Islamic-inspired crimes are now an everyday feature of life in Sydney and Melbourne, with women being pack-raped by Muslim gangs on the basis that they are, in the words of notorious gang-rapist Bilal Skaf, "Aussie *****s and sluts" and shootings and terrorist acts by Muslims being commonplace.

RECOGNISING THE REAL MENACE OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS

These illegal immigrants should be seen for exactly what they are, nothing more than criminals who are attempting to invade Australia for economic and political reasons because this country is perceived as a welfare state with a very soft attitude towards refugees and would also make a very good target for eventual Islamic takeover. They may claim to be genuine refugees, but they are merely crooks who procure the services of other criminals for payment to smuggle them into a sovereign nation.

May I remind ASF readers we already have one Labor Muslim in Federal Parliament who took oath on the Koran when being sworn in 2013.


----------



## drsmith (7 July 2014)

banco said:


> This might all be true but it doesn't mean Australia isn't in violation of its treaty obligations.  If the Government thinks the UN Refugee Convention is outdated (which they've certainly hinted at) they should have the balls to withdraw from it rather than remain a signatory while violating it.  Indonesia isn't a signatory.  Perhaps we can join their august company.



A discussion about whether or not we should be part of the refugee convention in the context of secure borders is a far better situation to be in than the insecure borders that prevailed previously.


----------



## drsmith (7 July 2014)

Confirmation of a boat with 41 on board returned to Sri Lankan authorities.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...i-lankans-returned-after-interception/5575924

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tt-morrison-says/story-fn9hm1gu-1226979966747

From the second article,



> The 41 asylum-seekers were “subjected to an enhanced screening process” which determined one Sinhalese passenger was entitled to a further refugee assessment.
> 
> However, that person “voluntarily requested” to return to Sri Lanka with their fellow passengers.




The fate of the other boat reported in the media to have 153 on board is still yet to be advised. 

On that, there's a hint in the following,



> Mr Morrison said he would make further statements when other such operations are completed.
> 
> Mr Morrison said “plenty” of asylum-seekers had tried to reach Australia “but every time they’ve tried, they’ve failed”.
> 
> “If you want to try it on, by all means you can have a crack, but you will not come under this government.”




and this in the SMH,



> On 2GB radio Mr Morrison said the other asylum seeker boat was not in Australian waters, but refused to provide further details. Doing so would place on-water operations at risk, Mr Morrison said.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...sea-returned-to-sri-lanka-20140707-3bh3x.html

Scott Morrison will visit Sri Lanka this week to attend a commissioning ceremony for two former Australian Customs patrol vessels gifted to the Sri Lankan government. This I think will be on Wednesday.

Scott Morrison media release,



> Monday, 07 July 2014
> 
> The Australian and Sri Lankan governments have moved swiftly to return a group of 41 Sri Lankan nationals who attempted to arrive illegally by boat to Australia as part of a maritime people smuggling venture.
> 
> ...




http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/sm/2014/sm216152.htm


----------



## drsmith (7 July 2014)

In fairness, I present the Labor response from Richard Marles to Scott Morrison's media release today.

It's very much a token gesture as one would expect. Labor after its record from government in this policy area would do better if it said nothing.



> The Abbott Government has today confirmed 41 asylum seekers have been returned to Sri Lanka.
> Labor has concerns about the integrity of this new method of processing people at sea and en masse and how this complies with Australia’s international obligations under relevant conventions.
> 
> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison must explain what process is underway to determine the refugee status of another reported 153 persons aboard a second vessel that was detected near Christmas Island.
> ...




http://www.richardmarles.com.au/sit...lease Return of Sri Lankan Asylum Seekers.pdf


----------



## Julia (7 July 2014)

One amusing note in this is the presence of a dog on the boat which was turned back to Sri Lanka.
Mr Morrison said the dog was not interviewed in terms of its intentions.


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

Julia said:


> Mr Morrison said the dog was not interviewed in terms of its intentions.



The highest court in the land mightn't like that.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-07/high-court-injunction-halts-handover-of-asylum-seekers/5579726


----------



## noco (8 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The highest court in the land mightn't like that.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-07/high-court-injunction-halts-handover-of-asylum-seekers/5579726




Doc, who do you think instigated this high court challenge?

You whistle and I will point.


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

noco said:


> Doc, who do you think instigated this high court challenge?
> 
> You whistle and I will point.






> Mr Abbott, asked about the injunction this morning, noted the refugee advocate bringing the lawsuit, George Newhouse, stood as a Labor candidate at the 2004 federal election.
> 
> “The Labor Party and its activists, the Greens and their activists, they will try to disrupt the government’s policy. They will try to do things that start the boats up again because that’s in Labor’s DNA.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ver-boats-policy/story-fn9hm1gu-1226981374435

According to Wikipedia, he stood against Malcolm Turnbull for the seat of Wentworth in the 2007 federal election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Newhouse#Political_activity


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

Some media commentary on the high court case regarding the second boat,



> 2:57pm: Ben Doherty also tells us that the government will not deliver the 153 asylum seekers into the custody of the Sri Lankan government or military without giving 72 hours written notice.
> 
> Justice Crennan says she wants the matter dealt with expeditiously and heard by the full High Court.
> 
> ...




I'd suggest the government is confident in terms of its legal position however time may be the enemy here.

The Fairfax reporter Judith Ireland describes the release of the above information as significant progress (in a link to another Fairfax article on this). In terms of our border security, it's not while the operation is still under way.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/the-pulse-live/politics-live-july-8-2014-20140708-3bjks.html


----------



## basilio (8 July 2014)

If I had tried to escape from the political authorities in Sri Lanka I wouldn't fancy my future  being sent back to face their justice system.




> Sri Lanka is a refugee-producing country. Here's why
> 
> It's a violation of Sri Lanka's migration law to leave the country unofficially. Most of the asylum seekers Australia is returning to Sri Lanka's navy will be charged – or worse
> 
> ...




*This is why the refugee convention specifically forbids sending asylum seekers back to their home country under most circumstances*

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...anka-is-a-refugee-producing-country-heres-why


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

basilio said:


> If I had tried to escape from the political authorities in Sri Lanka I wouldn't fancy my future  being sent back to face their justice system.
> 
> *This is why the refugee convention specifically forbids sending asylum seekers back to their home country under most circumstances*
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...anka-is-a-refugee-producing-country-heres-why



One of the group was given the offer of further assessment but declined, preferring to be sent back to Sri-Lanka with the others.


----------



## IFocus (8 July 2014)

Julia said:


> IFocus, could you kindly provide a link to the legislation that you are referring to when you say the government is 'violating international law"?
> Thanks.




As Banco pointed out there is the UN refugee bit but I would have thought forcing people off a boat in international waters was a crime, given I haven't seen anything in the press I guess its not maybe the high court will have something to say about that.

And then there is just the small matter of handing them back to a government condemned by a number of our prominent allies with strong evidence of extra judicial killings.

plus there is the secrecy which is quite scary, what other facets of government don't we need to know about plus add in Abbotts propensity to lie freely and repeatedly makes for fascinating period of government ahead.


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> plus there is the secrecy which is quite scary, what other facets of government don't we need to know about plus add in Abbotts propensity to lie freely and repeatedly makes for fascinating period of government ahead.



The secrecy has been explained.

This government at least is not in the business of providing delivery notices to people smugglers.

It looks like with the case of the 153 Sri-Lankans on the boat that is reported to have come from India now bound up in the high court that we will be stuck with them for some time. That will only encourage more.

You have been a strident critic of this government's border protection policies over a long period that dates back deep into the time of Labor's border chaos.

What do you prefer ?

The much more secure borders and hence lower numbers that arrive by boat under this government or the chaos and deaths at sea that operated under Labor ?


----------



## banco (8 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> Some media commentary on the high court case regarding the second boat,
> 
> 
> 
> I'd suggest the government is confident in terms of its legal position however time may be the enemy here.




What are you basing that on?  The Government doesn't exactly have a great record of late with regards to the the High Court and immigration matters.


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

banco said:


> What are you basing that on?  The Government doesn't exactly have a great record of late with regards to the the High Court and immigration matters.



How did Labor go with its Malaysia Solution ?

6-monts without a successful people smuggling operation reaching Australia is an outstanding achievement in comparison to the previous government in particular when one considers what they've had thrown at them. 

There is no doubt that this court case is a setback but there have been others in the past such as the Indonesian spying revelations of late last year when SHY tweeted that OSB was dead.

I don't know if the following image is from today or archive, but I imagine it's how Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison are currently feeling on this.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/hi...ers-to-sri-lanka/story-fni0fiyv-1226980954979

Despite the setback, they still have a good story to tell on border protection though in comparison to the previous government.


----------



## banco (8 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> How did Labor go with its Malaysia Solution ?
> 
> 6-monts without a successful people smuggling operation reaching Australia is an outstanding achievement in comparison to the previous government in particular when one considers what they've had thrown at them.
> 
> ...




In other words you are basing your opinion on the legal merits of the case on jack ****.


----------



## IFocus (8 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> How did Labor go with its Malaysia Solution ?
> 
> 6-monts without a successful people smuggling operation reaching Australia is an outstanding achievement in comparison to the previous government in particular when one considers what they've had thrown at them.
> 
> ...




Handing people back to a government like Sri Lanka is a good story?

Apparently Malaysia was an abomination but Sri Lanka is OK?


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

banco said:


> In other words you are basing your opinion on the legal merits of the case on jack ****.



How again did Labor go with its Malaysia solution ?

What about the legality (or even the morality) of deliberately risking one's life at sea and penetrating our borders in order to facilitate a better personal economic outcome ?

Even if our government has bent the rules, I have no problem with that. So have those seeking economic advantage at our expense. 

If we are the only one that plays by the rules for the sake of the high moral ground while nobody else does, that high moral ground quickly becomes thin air.

The government's argument is that the boat of 153 asylum seekers did not reach Australia's territory or migration zone.



> Ron Merkel QC, for the asylum-seekers, argues they should be processed under the Migration Act and not returned to Sri Lanka against their will.
> 
> But Solicitor-General Justin Gleeson said people picked up in the contiguous zone had no rights under provisions relating to visas, detention and removal.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-72-hours-notice/story-fn9hm1gu-1226981374435


----------



## drsmith (8 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Handing people back to a government like Sri Lanka is a good story?
> 
> Apparently Malaysia was an abomination but Sri Lanka is OK?



Again IF, what do you prefer ?

The much more secure borders and hence lower numbers that arrive by boat under this government or the chaos and deaths at sea that operated under Labor ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The video link in the following Fairfax story is footage from Senate questions on this issue today.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...sri-lankan-asylum-seekers-20140708-3bk9y.html


----------



## sptrawler (8 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The much more secure borders and hence lower numbers that arrive by boat under this government or the chaos and deaths at sea that operated under Labor ?




It's not about secure borders, or what is best for Australia, it's about downing Abbott.

It has become a quest by Fairfax, Labor and the Greens, to down Abbott, if that entails downing the Australian economy, so be it.

They really have lost the plot, it won't be long before it all unravells, now the Reserve Bank and Treasury are voicing their concerns.


----------



## Calliope (8 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> Again IF, what do you prefer ?
> 
> The much more secure borders and hence lower numbers that arrive by boat under this government or the chaos and deaths at sea that operated under Labor ?




It's hard to find it credible that people like banco and IFocus are in favour of the illegal immigrants (they are not refugees) coming here. Even Rudd didn't want that. I think it is all about hypocrisy and Abbott bashing, nothing to do with "legal rights'' or any other crap. They don't seem to realise that even if we received them on Cocos or Xmas Island, they would end up in Manus or Nauru and never set foot in Australia. Rudd made that commitment.


----------



## DB008 (8 July 2014)

Heard about that stabbing in Parramatta yesterday?




> *Man accused of killing partner's ex*
> 
> An Iranian man who allegedly stabbed his girlfriend's ex-lover to death in a busy Sydney shopping mall will defend his murder charge, his lawyer says.
> 
> ...




Is considering? Umm...what the?

He stabbed a person the death, then lit a cigarette and waited for the cops to show up.


----------



## sptrawler (8 July 2014)

DB008 said:


> Heard about that stabbing in Parramatta yesterday?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well you do have to consider the backlash from Labor, Greens, IFocus, Banco etc, before making a decission to deport them.lol

The leader of the Rebels motor cycle club, would have grounds for disputing his visa cancellation, if they allow this guy to stay.lol


----------



## Julia (8 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> As Banco pointed out there is the UN refugee bit but I would have thought forcing people off a boat in international waters was a crime, given I haven't seen anything in the press I guess its not maybe the high court will have something to say about that.
> 
> And then there is just the small matter of handing them back to a government condemned by a number of our prominent allies with strong evidence of extra judicial killings.
> 
> plus there is the secrecy which is quite scary, what other facets of government don't we need to know about plus add in Abbotts propensity to lie freely and repeatedly makes for fascinating period of government ahead.



So, all up, you have no proof of your allegation that the government is in contravention of international law.
McLovin at least explained about international treaties.  If the government offers the assurance that they are complying with treaty obligations, then if they're not someone has to demonstrate this.  So far this has not happened.  Australia can always simply withdraw from participation in the UNHCR.  It's voluntary, not mandatory.



banco said:


> In other words you are basing your opinion on the legal merits of the case on jack ****.



Is there any possibility at all of your expressing a view, or responding to anyone, in reasonably polite terms rather than the now repetitive need for asterisks to indicate your apparently woeful vocabulary?
By all means disagree, but there's just no need to constantly be rude.




sptrawler said:


> It's not about secure borders, or what is best for Australia, it's about downing Abbott.
> 
> It has become a quest by Fairfax, Labor and the Greens, to down Abbott, if that entails downing the Australian economy, so be it.



Exactly.  None of them care about people drowning.  Even when the government waffles on about that, it's completely insincere.  They just think it sounds caring and nice.
For the government it's all about fulfilling an election promise and good on them for that because the successful policy means we can increase the number of genuine refugees via the humanitarian program, something people like IF and banco never refer to because it doesn't suit their political agenda.

And for the opposition they don't care about the asylum seekers either.  Their own policy mirrors that of the government except they lacked the initiative to actually turn people back in order to provide a real deterrent.

So much hypocrisy.


----------



## bunyip (9 July 2014)

Around four thousand illegal boat people were flooding to our waters every month under Rudd/Gillard, causing hundreds of lives to be lost at sea, and costing thousands of millions of dollars to the Australian economy.
That figure of fifty thousand per year would certainly have blown out much further if the LNP hadn't come along and dealt with the problem so effectively that we now have no illegal boat people reaching us.

If we’d stuck with Rudd/Gillard, or if we went back to the dark old days of their policies, we could well find ourselves trying to cope with illegal boat people arrivals of 100 thousand a year or perhaps much higher over the next couple of years. 
How on earth could the Australian economy cope with that level of expense? Perhaps that question can be answered by the dills who criticize the Abbot government for fixing the problem?


----------



## noco (9 July 2014)

bunyip said:


> Around four thousand illegal boat people were flooding to our waters every month under Rudd/Gillard, causing hundreds of lives to be lost at sea, and costing thousands of millions of dollars to the Australian economy.
> That figure of fifty thousand per year would certainly have blown out much further if the LNP hadn't come along and dealt with the problem so effectively that we now have no illegal boat people reaching us.
> 
> If we’d stuck with Rudd/Gillard, or if we went back to the dark old days of their policies, we could well find ourselves trying to cope with illegal boat people arrivals of 100 thousand a year or perhaps much higher over the next couple of years.
> How on earth could the Australian economy cope with that level of expense? Perhaps that question can be answered by the dills who criticize the Abbot government for fixing the problem?




Simple.....under Labor they would just keep borrowing more money and have us in higher debt to the Chows.


----------



## IFocus (9 July 2014)

Julia said:


> Australia can always simply withdraw from participation in the UNHCR.  It's voluntary, not mandatory.




I hear this all the time from people living in fish bowls, try travelling on a passport oversees from a country who isn't a member of western / UN sponsored treaties and and wont comply to its obligations.




> Exactly.  None of them care about people drowning.  Even when the government waffles on about that, it's completely insincere.  They just think it sounds caring and nice.
> For the government it's all about fulfilling an election promise and good on them for that because the successful policy means we can increase the number of genuine refugees via the humanitarian program, something people like IF and banco never refer to because it doesn't suit their political agenda.




Wrong.........I am not against Abbott stopping the boats I am absolutely against government by secrecy, lies and the massive hypocrisy / rubbish Abbott continues to spiel out every day.

I notice you and others here have failed repeatedly to comment on returning people to Sri Lanka, do you support this?  





> And for the opposition they don't care about the asylum seekers either.  Their own policy mirrors that of the government except they lacked the initiative to actually turn people back in order to provide a real deterrent.
> So much hypocrisy.




I think there are politicians from all sides of politics that actually care about peoples fate arriving by boat but party politics isn't about that its about obtaining raw power.


----------



## IFocus (9 July 2014)

David Marr writes a good piece on the current situation


Asylum secrecy on the high seas is designed to foil the enemy within – the law

The harder it is to know what’s happening, the tougher it is for lawyers to get traction. This government isn't a pioneer



> The secrecy that shrouds Operation Sovereign Borders is designed to foil the law more than frustrate people smugglers. This goes way back. Ever since Australia began its battle to stop the boats nearly 40 years ago, Canberra has tried to place the campaign beyond the reach of lawyers and the courts.
> 
> The law is the enemy within. That lawyers have won big victories along the way makes governments try even more ruthlessly to sideline them. The deep instinct of both Labor and the Coalition has been to battle the boats with as little interference as possible from wigs, gowns and the courts.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...eas-designed-to-foil-the-enemy-within-the-law


----------



## Calliope (9 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> I notice you and others here have failed repeatedly to comment on returning people to Sri Lanka, do you support this?




I support sending illegals home along with their crew of smugglers. Unfortunately it appears we are stuck with them.

On another note, I notice that the child Senator Hanson-Young is waxing hysterical and says we are obliged to respond to the blackmail of 12 women on Christmas Island who are threatening to commit suicide unless we send their children to Australia instead of to Manus with them. That would solve their parental responsibilities and they would become Islamic martyrs too boot. Actually suicide is forbidden for Muslims, but martyrdom is OK, but the women aren't entitled to the delights of Paradise.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...says-tony-abbott/story-fn9hm1gu-1226982499029


----------



## drsmith (9 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> I am not against Abbott stopping the boats I am absolutely against government by secrecy, lies and the massive hypocrisy / rubbish Abbott continues to spiel out every day.
> 
> I notice you and others here have failed repeatedly to comment on returning people to Sri Lanka, do you support this?



I do and Labor also did in office. Most, as Bob Carr said are economic refugees.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/asylum-seeker-claims-mythology-bob-carr

It's not a fault that this government is more effective at border security than the one before. If you're not against the boats being stopped, perhaps you could offer some credit instead of the constant criticism for what has been a hugely successful policy area after the mess left by Labor.



> The deep instinct of both Labor and the Coalition has been to battle the boats with as little interference as possible from wigs, gowns and the courts.



Kevin Rudd stopped the boats according to David Marr.

Labor in government didn't battle the boats. It encouraged them and still does so from opposition.


----------



## Calliope (9 July 2014)

The truth emerges.



> *LABOR’S last foreign minister, Bob Carr, has ridiculed refugee advocates’ “urban mythology” about endemic persecution of Tamils in Sri Lanka, saying the previous government “couldn’t find a single case” of returned asylum-seekers being abused by authorities.*
> 
> Mr Carr, who retired from politics last October, accepted Sri Lanka’s recovery after 35 years of civil war was not “a perfect exercise”, but rejected former Liberal prime minister Malcolm Fraser’s likening of the Abbott government’s policy to returning Jews to Nazi Germany.
> 
> Mr Carr’s comments come as the Abbott government determines the fate of 153 Sri Lankan nationals being held aboard an Australian Customs vessel after their interception at sea.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...th-says-bob-carr/story-fn9hm1gu-1226982849322


----------



## Calliope (9 July 2014)

Something you will not hear from Milne and Hanson-Young, or on the ABC nor in the Fairfax Press.

*Vested interests push asylum propaganda to profit from a lucrative trade*


BANDULA JAYASEKARA THE AUSTRALIAN JULY 09, 2014 12:00AM



> I COULDN’T help reading over and over The Australian’s editorial of July 7 that said: “Former prime minister Malcolm Fraser doesn’t help his standing by likening the return of Tamils to Sri Lanka to handing over Jewish refugees to Nazi Germany. Such intemperance can only damage Mr Fraser’s cause.” It certainly has, as has the hysterical language in the “lopsided” asylum debate in Australia in the past few days.
> 
> *A misconception has been created among some Australians regarding asylum-seekers arriving from Sri Lanka because of a huge and very well-funded misinformation campaign carried out by parties with vested interests*. Their claims are unfounded and unbelievable. Even Ripley would have said “You cannot believe it” instead of “Believe it or not!”
> 
> ...



{Mybolds)

Ambassador Bandula Jayasekara is the consul general of Sri Lanka for NSW and Queensland.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-lucrative-trade/story-e6frg6zo-1226982224602


----------



## Julia (9 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> I notice you and others here have failed repeatedly to comment on returning people to Sri Lanka,



No one has asked me until now.  So how have I 'failed repeatedly to comment'?



> do you support this?



I decline to offer an opinion.   You could, however, refer to Bob Carr's comments on the matter.  One would assume he's entirely more qualified to comment than am I.


----------



## noco (9 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Something you will not hear from Milne and Hanson-Young, or on the ABC nor in the Fairfax Press.
> 
> *Vested interests push asylum propaganda to profit from a lucrative trade*
> 
> ...




Doc, I would like to see all the Fabian Society members rounded up and deported to Siberia ......their mother country....They are a menace to our society.


----------



## dutchie (10 July 2014)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/fearmongers-hateful-fraud/story-fni0ffxg-1226983468451

THE outrage over the forced return of 41 Sri Lankan boat people has been exposed as a fraud by the “asylum seekers” themselves.

Here’s conclusive proof that our “refugee lobby” is motivated by deceit, self-preening and insane hatred of the Abbott Government.

These 41 were on one of two boats of Sri Lankans intercepted by our Navy over the past fortnight, and were sent back this week.

Greens leader Christine Milne was apoplectic, describing the passengers as victims of a Sri Lankan tyranny and the evil Tony Abbott: “Sri Lankan asylum seekers have been returned to Sri Lanka: the persecuted to the persecutor.”

Refugee lawyer George Newhouse and former prime minister Malcolm Fraser even likened returning boat people to Sri Lanka to returning Jews to Nazi Germany.

And journalists of the Left competed to be the most horrified. ABC host Fran Kelly, won, gasping: “Since when does our Government disappear people?”

Bad luck for Kelly. The 41 have now appeared again, back in Sri Lanka where they spoke to reporters.

So were they “refugees”? Were they truly the “persecuted”, fleeing a Third Reich in the Indian Ocean?

Let me quote every single one who talked to reporters. You judge.

Punchi Banda Podinilame, speaking for 10 relatives on board, told Fairfax “they had all gone to Australia to find employment”.

Manushika Sandamali, wife of another passenger, admitted: “My husband went to Australia to get a job.”

M.G. Sumanadasa said he was a stone mason who “got on board to earn more money and to have a family house in New Zealand”.

Anthony Fernando said: “I have gone to Australia by boat to find employment.”

The only human rights abuse Fernando reported was our Navy feeding him old muesli bars: “Australian authorities have ill-treated us; they have given expired food, which had a date of May 22.”

Passenger Bhamith Caldera refused to say if he really “had a case for asylum”.

Kasun Hemantha Jayasekara said he was actually “very happy to be back in Sri Lanka”, given “the alternative was an island prison” like Manus.

Sujeewa Saparamadu came closest to claiming some passengers feared persecution. She said a Special Task Force commando accused of helping to organise the boat “has a political problem”, which she did not identify.

She also claimed she’d been harassed by Sri Lankan authorities after giving an interview to the ABC two years ago, leading her family to decide “to go to another country like New Zealand that offered better economic circumstances”.

In fact, that ABC interview had merely recorded her husband admitting his four brothers had themselves just been returned by the Gillard government after trying to find work in Australia.

(And, yes, Labor returned more than 1000 Sri Lankans against their will, yet the Left waits until Tony Abbott does it before protesting.)

The only human rights abuse Saparamadu complained of this week was Australian officials confiscating her iPhone 5, her daughter’s digital camera and her husband’s gold credit cards.

So how could the Greens claim it a crime to have sent back economic migrants? How can so many journalists ”” and the Human Rights Commission ”” scream we’ve breached our human rights obligations?

But don’t expect a sorry. No, the Left is now screaming about the second intercepted boat, this carrying 153 passengers now believed to be in Australian custody at sea.

Newhouse and barrister Ron Merkel, QC, have persuaded the High Court to issue a temporary injunction against returning these 153 to Sri Lanka, and the same superheated rhetoric is heard about torture, the “disappeared” and Nazis.

But are these boat people any more likely to be true refugees?

Answer: no, even though these, unlike the first 41, are mainly of Sri Lanka’s Tamil minority.

In fact, Merkel has already conceded most ”” if not all ”” sailed from India, where they presumably lived in the safety of the established refugee camps.

So why did they try to come here?

As yet, they are still held incommunicado, but Ragajini, the 32-year-old wife of one passenger, told The Sydney Morning Herald from India’s Aliyar refugee camp that “her husband had crippling debts and had needed to escape to a country where he could earn money”.

So not needing our asylum. Just our jobs.

Sure, the 153 might not want to be returned to Sri Lanka but I’m guessing the plan is to send them back to India, where they were always safe.

So if a crime against morality has been committed it is surely this: that so many atrocity-mongers and moral poseurs have inflicted upon us a gigantic fraud.


----------



## IFocus (10 July 2014)

Julia said:


> No one has asked me until now.  So how have I 'failed repeatedly to comment'?
> 
> 
> I decline to offer an opinion.   You could, however, refer to Bob Carr's comments on the matter.  One would assume he's entirely more qualified to comment than am I.




I saw Carrs comments and I suspect he to is living in a fish bowl


----------



## IFocus (10 July 2014)

Calliope said:


> Something you will not hear from Milne and Hanson-Young, or on the ABC nor in the Fairfax Press.
> 
> *Vested interests push asylum propaganda to profit from a lucrative trade*
> 
> ...





The Sri Lanka government (read Rajapaksa Mafia) has been very consistent rejecting all claims of human rights abuses as a western / bad people conspiracy.

Nice to see the Liberal Daily News back up the government line


----------



## bunyip (10 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> It's not a fault that this government is more effective at border security than the one before. If you're not against the boats being stopped, perhaps you could offer some credit instead of the constant criticism for what has been a hugely successful policy area after the mess left by Labor.
> 
> Labor in government didn't battle the boats. It encouraged them and still does so from opposition.




Doc – our ol’ pal IFocus is never going to give the Abbot government credit for anything. His constant criticism  is nothing more than sour grapes because the Abbot government has succeeded where his ALP heroes failed. 
He says he’s not against Abbot stopping the boats, yet he does nothing but criticize him for doing just that. And yet he never directed as much as a hint of criticism at his hero Rudd who caused the problem in the first place, then was clueless about how to fix it, as was Gillard.
I find it very difficult to believe that IFocus and his ilk want the boats stopped -  I think we can reasonably assume that he’d be happy to see the illegal boat arrivals return to the levels we saw under Labor, so that he could then chortle with glee about how Abbot had failed.


----------



## noco (10 July 2014)

bunyip said:


> Doc – our ol’ pal IFocus is never going to give the Abbot government credit for anything. His constant criticism  is nothing more than sour grapes because the Abbot government has succeeded where his ALP heroes failed.
> He says he’s not against Abbot stopping the boats, yet he does nothing but criticize him for doing just that. And yet he never directed as much as a hint of criticism at his hero Rudd who caused the problem in the first place, then was clueless about how to fix it, as was Gillard.
> I find it very difficult to believe that IFocus and his ilk want the boats stopped -  I think we can reasonably assume that he’d be happy to see the illegal boat arrivals return to the levels we saw under Labor, so that he could then chortle with glee about how Abbot had failed.




the Green/Labor Party sent back over 1000 during their time in Government, so why are being so intent in getting a court order to stop the Abbott Government from returning the latest contingent.  ......What a mob of hypocrites.


----------



## drsmith (10 July 2014)

bunyip said:


> Doc – our ol’ pal IFocus is never going to give the Abbot government credit for anything. His constant criticism  is nothing more than sour grapes because the Abbot government has succeeded where his ALP heroes failed.



IF's avatar says it all.

He just comments on this topic for a bit of a stir without too much concern about having his feathers constantly plucked.


----------



## drsmith (12 July 2014)

Some stats to emerge from yesterday's senate hearings,



> Operation Sovereign Borders commander Angus Campbell, appearing before a Senate inquiry yesterday, praised “the policy settings of both the current and former governments” for stemming the flow of boats from 48 a month last July to five in October and November.
> 
> It was decided even that small number was unsustainable and the government began towing boats back to Indonesia from mid-December. “No ventures have departed in Indonesia since early May 2014, there have been no known deaths at sea since 9 December 2013 and no deaths at all in Australia’s territorial waters since Operation Sovereign Borders began,” he told the inquiry.
> 
> ...




The article also includes Scott Morrison on matters Sri Lanka,



> On his return from Sri Lanka yesterday, the Immigration Minister said that isolating Sri Lanka would only harm economic growth and increase the prospect of more people-smuggler boats coming to Australia
> 
> Mr Morrison said advocacy for asylum-seekers was being used as a ‘’very negative platform on Sri Lanka itself’’ to turn the *nation into a pariah. “The ultimate aim of some is to isolate Sri Lanka which is not only dangerous, arrogant and indulgent but smacks of moral colonialism,’’ Mr Morrison said.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ics-of-sri-lanka/story-fn9hm1gu-1226986157128


----------



## drsmith (15 July 2014)

Scott Morrison in Parliament yesterday commented that it's been almost 7-months since a successful people smuggling operation has reached Australia.

That leaves the question as to what is happening to the 153 from a boat subject to the high court who are in our care, presumably sill on a customs vessel on the high seas.

According to the following article, Sri-Lankan government *officials and the UNHCR are *believed to be in discussions about that boat load.



> An NGO source told The Daily Telegraph the relationship with the Sri Lankan government had deteriorated in the past two weeks, with many nervous about *speaking openly with media about asylum seekers. Government *officials and the UNHCR are *believed to be in discussions about 153 asylum seekers intercepted by the Royal Australian Navy.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...uslim-extremists/story-fni0cx4q-1226987688677


----------



## noco (15 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> I saw Carrs comments and I suspect he to is living in a fish bowl




But Carr is a Labor man speaking the truth...something the rest of the Fabian comrades don't know how to speak the truth.


----------



## drsmith (15 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> According to the following article, Sri-Lankan government officials and the UNHCR are believed to be in discussions about that boat load.



This might be the game plan,



> These arguments will ultimately be decided by the High Court. In the meantime, the asylum seekers will not be going back to Sri Lanka without 72 hours notice being given. *Justice Crennan noted that the injunction she granted did not prevent "any decisions which may be made by the Australian executive about taking the persons in question... to some other place for processing".*




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-14/fact-file-asylum-seekers-fate-in-high-court/5581926

My bolds.


----------



## ChrisJH (15 July 2014)

noco said:


> But Carr is a Labor man speaking the truth...something the rest of the Fabian comrades don't know how to speak the truth.




Who is this Fabian you keep going on about, and what is the opposite of a Fabian?


----------



## noco (15 July 2014)

ChrisJH said:


> Who is this Fabian you keep going on about, and what is the opposite of a Fabian?




Chris. I hope this opens your eyes as to what the Fabian Society is all about.

The Greens and the Labor left wing socialists are all members of the Fabian Society which originated in Communist Russia.

Chris Bowen ( the shadow treasurer) Jenny Macklin are just two that come to mind....Gough Whitlam is their Patrron.

GET UP is another branch of Fabians of which Bill Shorten is a foundation member.

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/


----------



## noco (16 July 2014)

Whilst I am no supporter of Communism as all would be well and truly aware, Below is an interesting short speech from Vladimir Putin on Muslims.

Perhaps the Fabians in Australia should take heed of Putin's speech and follow his thoughts and stop any further entry of Muslims into Australia. 


> > Vladimir Putin on Muslims
> >
> > No wonder he was selected by Forbes as the most powerful person in the world!! This is one time our elected leaders should pay attention to the advice of Vladimir Putin. I would suggest that not only our leaders but every citizen of USA should pay attention to this advice. How scary is that? It is a sad day when a Communist makes more sense than our LEADERS but here it is!!!!
> >
> > Vladimir Putin's speech – HIS SHORTEST SPEECH EVER.
> >
> > On August 04, 2013, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, addressed the Duma, (Russian Parliament), and gave a speech about the tensions with minorities in Russia:
> >
> > In Russia, live like Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, it should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Sharia Law, and live the life of Muslim's then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law.
> >
> > Russia does not need Muslim minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We will not tolerate disrespect of our Russian culture. We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Muslims are taking over those countries and they will not take over Russia. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of Sharia Law and Muslims.
> >
> > When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the Russian national interest first, observing that the Muslims Minorities Are Not Russians.Ã¢â‚¬
> >
> > The politicians in the Duma gave Putin a five minute standing ovation.
> >
> > If you keep this to yourself, you are part of the problem!
> >
> >


----------



## drsmith (22 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> That leaves the question as to what is happening to the 153 from a boat subject to the high court who are in our care, presumably sill on a customs vessel on the high seas.



Latest reports focus around discussions with India,



> INDIAN officials are preparing for a visit to New Delhi by Immigration Minister Scott Morrison, with discussions expected to centre on the 153 asylum-seekers in legal limbo and enhanced co-operation on people-smuggling.
> 
> India’s high commissioner to Australia, Biren Nanda, last night told The Australian Mr Morrison was “proceeding to India and he will be meeting with our foreign and home ministers tomorrow’’.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...for-asylum-talks/story-fn9hm1gu-1226996685639

The number confirmed aboard the above boat is 157, not 153 as reported earlier.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...rs-of-natural-light-a-day-20140722-3cci2.html


----------



## banco (23 July 2014)

noco said:


> Whilst I am no supporter of Communism as all would be well and truly aware, Below is an interesting short speech from Vladimir Putin on Muslims.
> 
> Perhaps the Fabians in Australia should take heed of Putin's speech and follow his thoughts and stop any further entry of Muslims into Australia.
> 
> ...




You can't recognise a BS chain email when you see one? I picture you as this grandpa simpson type getting riled up by urban legends circulated through email by your fellow geriatrics. Better take your heart pills next time you open one of those emails.


----------



## noco (23 July 2014)

banco said:


> You can't recognise a BS chain email when you see one? I picture you as this grandpa simpson type getting riled up by urban legends circulated through email by your fellow geriatrics. Better take your heart pills next time you open one of those emails.




What is all this dribble about?.....You are nice fellow aren't you.!!!!!!!


----------



## banco (23 July 2014)

noco said:


> What is all this dribble about?.....You are nice fellow aren't you.!!!!!!!




Origins:   This April 2013 item purports to reproduce a speech given by Russian president Vladimir Putin to the State Duma (the lower house of Russia's Federal Assembly) in which he demanded that minorities living in Russia (particularly Muslims) speak Russian and conform to Russian culture and laws and urged the Russian legislature to "have in mind the Russian national interest first" in order to avoid Muslims' "taking over Russia." At the conclusion of this speech he reportedly received a "five-minute standing ovation" from the gathered members of the assembly.

There is no evidence that President Putin gave any such speech, however. 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/putinduma.asp


----------



## drsmith (23 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> Latest reports focus around discussions with India,
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...for-asylum-talks/story-fn9hm1gu-1226996685639
> 
> ...



Another media report, this time from the Colombo Gazette.



> India gave Australia a bit of a breather by agreeing to investigate whether some of the 157 boat refugees confined to their boat on Christmas Island are Sri Lankan Tamil refugees from a camp in Puducherry, the Times of India reported.
> 
> Australia has asked the Indian government to provide consular services to the refugees to see if India can take them back. The refugees are held as prisoners in a boat and only let out during meal time.
> 
> ...




http://colombogazette.com/2014/07/23/india-to-probe-boat-with-157-lankans/

ABC,



> Following Immigration Minister Scott Morrison's visit to India, the Indian High Commission in Canberra has told the ABC Indian officials want to establish who they are and where they set sail from.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-23/high-courts-full-bench-to-hear-asylum-seeker-challenge/5618106


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2014)

The above 157 are to be transferred to the Curtin detention centre via Cocos Island pending assessment by Indian officials.



> Today, the asylum seekers will be taken to Cocos Island and then flown to the Curtin Detention Centre in remote Western Australia.
> 
> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has insisted no asylum seekers who come by boat would reach the Australian mainland, but he has been forced to make an exception because India wants to interview them.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...-of-returning-asylum-seekers-to-india/5625866

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/australia-india-engaged-together-to-stop-people/5624626

This will being to 159 the total brought to our shores so far this year. 

In comparison, over 17,000 arrived over the same period last year on over 200 boats.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-deal-with-india/story-fn9hm1gu-1227002158663


----------



## So_Cynical (26 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> This will being to 159 the total brought to our shores so far this year.
> 
> In comparison, over 17,000 arrived over the same period last year on over 200 boats.




Transporting 159 people to Australia, in an Australian registered Ship under the direction and control of the Australian Government...sounds like the Government has accepted responsibility for these people.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2014)

Does this mean another election promise broken ?

The boats haven't stopped.


----------



## noco (26 July 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Does this mean another election promise broken ?
> 
> The boats haven't stopped.





Clap..clap..clap......The Fabians have a smile on their faces.....They are happy to think the Government has failed and it has all to do with Labor's interference with court intervention.

But the Government has not failed.....these 159 illegals will be held in detention in WA until the Indian consul has interviewed them and will most likely will be returned to India....they will not be settled in a Australia.

So to all the Fabians, don't get too excited about Government failure  just yet.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ce-centre-lawyer/story-fnihslxi-1227002353413

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-deal-with-india/story-fn9hm1gu-1227002158663


----------



## drsmith (26 July 2014)

After the Indonesian spying allegations surfaced late last year, the child senator boldly proclaimed OSB was dead. Somewhat wishful thinking that was on her part but still she tries with little regard for the tragedies and accidents at sea that occur as a consequence.

Just to clarify, it's 157 that originated from India that will be sent to Curtin for Indian assessment. The other two bringing the total for the year to 159 were from an earlier boat where the rest were returned to Indonesia in a bright orange lifeboat. These two were retained on medical grounds.

The government has been prudent in trying to forge a long term cooperation with India on this issue.

Regardless of how many of this group are returned to India, the longer term gains will I suspect be more significant. 

Illegal immigration will never be stopped completely but the numbers now are very much less than occurred under Labor and clearly very much less than Labor and the Greens would like both at a political and ideological level.


----------



## Julia (26 July 2014)

The part that I'm confused about is that Australia apparently had no responsibility for this 150 odd group because they never entered Australian waters.  Yet everyone seems to have assumed they are Australia's responsibility, the government included.  Can someone explain why?


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2014)

Julia said:


> The part that I'm confused about is that Australia apparently had no responsibility for this 150 odd group because they never entered Australian waters.  Yet everyone seems to have assumed they are Australia's responsibility, the government included.  Can someone explain why?




I guess possession is nine tenths of the law. If they are on our boat, they are our problem. No other country wants them and looks like we have to process them for their refugee status or not.


----------



## Julia (26 July 2014)

Yes, Rumpole, but to be entirely hard hearted about it, Australia would seem to have had no obligation to pick them up and put them on the Australian boat in the first place.  That's the point I was trying to make.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2014)

Julia said:


> Yes, Rumpole, but to be entirely hard hearted about it, Australia would seem to have had no obligation to pick them up and put them on the Australian boat in the first place.  That's the point I was trying to make.




Probably true, but the mindset of the government seems to be "they shall not land on our shores" and so probably the idea was to do the same with the 150 as was done with the 40 that were sent back to Sri Lanka, only we later found out that they did not come from Sri Lanka, but India and India did not want them, so we got caught out.

Why countries cannot be required to take responsibility for their own citizens is beyond me. Is seems ridiculous that countries can just refuse to take their own citizens back.


----------



## banco (26 July 2014)

Julia said:


> The part that I'm confused about is that Australia apparently had no responsibility for this 150 odd group because they never entered Australian waters.  Yet everyone seems to have assumed they are Australia's responsibility, the government included.  Can someone explain why?




Because once they make it to Australian waters the Government's options narrow so they pick them up before they get there.


----------



## banco (26 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> After the Indonesian spying allegations surfaced late last year, the child senator boldly proclaimed OSB was dead. Somewhat wishful thinking that was on her part but still she tries with little regard for the tragedies and accidents at sea that occur as a consequence.
> 
> Just to clarify, it's 157 that originated from India that will be sent to Curtin for Indian assessment. The other two bringing the total for the year to 159 were from an earlier boat where the rest were returned to Indonesia in a bright orange lifeboat. These two were retained on medical grounds.
> 
> ...




I'd say it had at least as much to do with the Government thinking they were going to lose the High Court case.


----------



## IFocus (27 July 2014)

A bulldog jaw and solemn warnings – but India calls the shots on Morrison

Delhi has succeeded where the courts and opposition have failed by forcing the Coalition into the open over its boat policy



> Whatever the minister says, he didn’t stop this boat. Scott Morrison was not in great shape when he faced the press this afternoon to admit – after Guardian Australia broke the story – that the Tamils floating round the Indian Ocean on a Customs vessel for the last three weeks are to be brought ashore.
> 
> He was white as a sheet. His rhetoric was especially solemn. The “broad menu of measures” he mentioned once or twice during his 20 minutes confrontation with the press didn’t include humble pie.
> 
> You have to pity the poor bugger: he’s the minister for immigration and border protection and he can’t tell us where the 157 will be landed and where they will be held. The Guardian had already told him: Cocos Island and Curtin detention centre. He expressed no gratitude.






> Not this time. Through the welter of obfuscation it emerged that India is calling the shots here. The Tamils are to be brought ashore “out of respect” said Morrison “for the way the Indian government wished to conduct the process”.
> 
> So it’s been left to India to tell us to behave ourselves – not the high court or the opposition or those Australians appalled by us imprisoning asylum seekers for weeks on the high seas. But India.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/25/bulldog-jaw-solemn-warnings-india-calls-shots-morrison


----------



## drsmith (27 July 2014)

banco said:


> I'd say it had at least as much to do with the Government thinking they were going to lose the High Court case.



I suspect the government would have aimed to get Sri-Lanka to take both boat loads in one go.

Once that failed, it was always going to be messier and the court action didn't help in that regard.


----------



## drsmith (27 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> A bulldog jaw and solemn warnings – but India calls the shots on Morrison
> 
> Delhi has succeeded where the courts and opposition have failed by forcing the Coalition into the open over its boat policy.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/25/bulldog-jaw-solemn-warnings-india-calls-shots-morrison



Don't worry about reading that rubbish. The numbers speak for themselves.

159 vs 17,000 for the same period last year and that's before its determined how many of the recent 157 will be returned to India. 

The Coalition sets far higher standards on border security than Labor did in office.


----------



## IFocus (27 July 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Coalition sets far higher standards on border security than Labor did in office.





Epic fail if you  measure them in complying with the law and open democratic government principles

Since when is Indian deciding on how the Coalition deals with asylum seekers rubbish.


----------



## drsmith (27 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Epic fail if you  measure them in complying with the law and open democratic government principles
> 
> Since when is Indian deciding on how the Coalition deals with asylum seekers rubbish.



The only way you're going to get 17,000 feathers back is with tar.


----------



## Julia (27 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Epic fail if you  measure them in complying with the law and open democratic government principles



Would you prefer that the approach of Labor were still in place where they were unable to establish any control over our borders at all?   When they said the push factors were the entire cause of the flood of people able to pay people smugglers, at the expense of those patiently waiting in refugee camps, having already been declared genuine refugees?

Just really gets me that some people are so lacking in any sort of objectivity that they will find a reason to criticism the 'other side' and make constant excuses for the failures of their 'own side'.

Perhaps you would advocate Australia just opening our arms to all people who are attracted to our peaceful democracy, and our generous welfare system?    Might be good to explain how we would pay for all these additional people sucking on the taxpayer purse.


----------



## Julia (27 July 2014)

> The part that I'm confused about is that Australia apparently had no responsibility for this 150 odd group because they never entered Australian waters. Yet everyone seems to have assumed they are Australia's responsibility, the government included. Can someone explain why?





banco said:


> Because once they make it to Australian waters the Government's options narrow so they pick them up before they get there.



Could you explain what additional options are available to the government by assuming responsibility for them via picking them up outside our territorial waters?


----------



## banco (27 July 2014)

Julia said:


> Could you explain what additional options are available to the government by assuming responsibility for them via picking them up outside our territorial waters?




The Government has previously argued (and was set to argue in the High Court) that people picked up outside our territorial waters have no access to Australian immigration law so they can't make claims under Australia's migration legislation.


----------



## IFocus (28 July 2014)

banco said:


> The Government has previously argued (and was set to argue in the High Court) that people picked up outside our territorial waters have no access to Australian immigration law so they can't make claims under Australia's migration legislation.




Isn't it piracy to force people off boats and hold them outside of territorial waters? 

No matter look the other way nothing happening here, stop the boats blah blah.

Looking forward to Indian further running Abbot's operation sovereign borders.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2014)

IFocus said:


> Isn't it piracy to force people off boats and hold them outside of territorial waters?
> 
> .




If the boat put out a distress signal, it would be a rescue. If after they were picked up they then claimed asylum procedures would have to be gone through to determine their status, which is where we are now.


----------



## drsmith (28 July 2014)

Scott Morrison on AM this morning,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-28/scott-morrison-am-tamils-india-asylum/5628212


----------



## Knobby22 (28 July 2014)

I don't understand why they didn't take them to Nauru initially? 
The prison boat issue wouldn't have occurred and there is now a high probability that some of them will be granted asylum now that they are in Australia. What have I missed? 

The cost of running a prison boat on the high seas would have been horrendous, not to mention the misery of the children and families. I just don't understand quite why this occurred. Was it something to do with the High Court decision?


----------



## Julia (28 July 2014)

I share Knobby's puzzlement.  Can only assume it was a dictate of the Indian government, ie that they would only be prepared to interview the people on the Australian mainland.  But that might be quite wrong.


----------



## noco (28 July 2014)

This court action has been instigated by the Green/Labor coalition  in an effort to disrupt the Governments policy of stopping the boats.

These Indians were not being persecuted and are obviously economic refugees once again jumping the que ahead of genuine refugees who do not have the money to pay people smugglers.

They were also intercepted outside Australian territorial waters.   


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-would-be-absurd/story-fn9hm1gu-1227003955714


----------



## So_Cynical (28 July 2014)

The Indian Govt is now in control of Noalition Immigration policy.


----------



## noco (28 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> The Indian Govt is now in control of Noalition Immigration policy.





Well now, lets wait and see if you are right....time will tell and you might finish up with egg on your face.


----------



## DB008 (28 July 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> The Indian Govt is now in control of Noalition Immigration policy.




Really?

Who was in control when Rudd/Gillard were at the helm?


----------



## drsmith (28 July 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> I don't understand why they didn't take them to Nauru initially?
> The prison boat issue wouldn't have occurred and there is now a high probability that some of them will be granted asylum now that they are in Australia. What have I missed?
> 
> The cost of running a prison boat on the high seas would have been horrendous, not to mention the misery of the children and families. I just don't understand quite why this occurred. Was it something to do with the High Court decision?



Scott Morrison in the video above made the distinction that offshore processing was the backstop for asylum processing while this group will be subject to identity checks by Indian authorities.

The intention I'd suggest is that those not returned to India will be sent to an offshore processing centre.

The cost of detention by any means is horrendous but the cost of people smugglers determining our immigration intake as occurred under the previous Labor government is far worse. This is just part of the legacy of fixing Labor's mess in this policy area, a legacy that Labor is only too keen to maintain.

Also, it wasn't a prison boat and the conditions would not have been horrendous. That is just an unsubstantiated slur against our border protection authorities. Think for a moment in comparison to the conditions on the boat they chose to board when leaving India and also consider whether or not they would be allowed to return to India should any of them had chosen to do so.


----------



## drsmith (28 July 2014)

DB008 said:


> Really?
> 
> Who was in control when Rudd/Gillard were at the helm?




On behalf of those who constantly complain more about this government's border protection policies than the previous government's, I can answer that.


----------



## banco (31 July 2014)

Something for Australia to be proud of:

The national inquiry into children in immigration detention has heard evidence alleging a Government cover-up about the scale of mental health issues among child asylum seekers.

Psychiatrist Dr Peter Young was the director of mental health services at detention centre service provider International Health and Mental Services (IHMS) for three years until earlier this month.

In evidence to the inquiry today, Dr Young alleged figures showing the extent of mental health issues among child asylum seekers had been covered up by the Immigration Department.

He said IHMS had collected figures showing "significant" mental health problems among a significant number of child detainees.

He said the "early data" was "broadly in line with what we are seeing with adults and perhaps a little higher".

Dr Young said IHMS provided a report to the Immigration Department "in the couple of weeks as [the data had] come in" and that the reaction was "negative".

"[The Immigration Department] reacted with alarm and have asked us to withdraw these figures from our reporting," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...-hears-claims-of-immigration-cover-up/5637654


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

banco said:


> "[The Immigration Department] reacted with alarm and have asked us to withdraw these figures from our reporting," he said.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...-hears-claims-of-immigration-cover-up/5637654




Going back to the Howard days. If you don't like the data, silence the messenger.


----------



## noco (31 July 2014)

banco said:


> Something for Australia to be proud of:
> 
> The national inquiry into children in immigration detention has heard evidence alleging a Government cover-up about the scale of mental health issues among child asylum seekers.
> 
> ...





Well, I guess the poor little bu99ers at the bottom of the ocean under the Green/Labor regime don't have to worry about mental health...how may was there?????....100..200...300......SHY says accidents happen...so what does she care?


----------



## banco (31 July 2014)

noco said:


> Well, I guess the poor little bu99ers at the bottom of the ocean under the Green/Labor regime don't have to worry about mental health...how may was there?????....100..200...300......SHY says accidents happen...so what does she care?




so we should abuse the ones that do come to deter others from getting on boats?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2014)

noco said:


> Well, I guess the poor little bu99ers at the bottom of the ocean under the Green/Labor regime don't have to worry about mental health...how may was there?????....100..200...300......SHY says accidents happen...so what does she care?




How much responsibility do you think the people that got on those leaky boats in the first place should take ?


----------



## noco (1 August 2014)

banco said:


> so we should abuse the ones that do come to deter others from getting on boats?




Who said the kids had been abused......How have they been abused?.......Who have they been abused by?....Were they sexually abused?.....Were they beaten by out authorities? ......do you consider being held in detention is abuse. 

Did it come out of the child senator SHY's mouth......don't take too much notice of that Green Fabian.....she loves to stir and exaggerate and make the situation worse than it is......Every time she goes into detention center, there is a doubling of incidents.......Perhaps they should have let her into Curtain detention center and not let her out.......Note SHY remarks about India......India sure gave her a wrap over the knuckles for her lies.

I don't believe detention is abuse.......After all they come with their parents, who in most cases throw their ID's over board and in doing so it takes time to establish who they and if they are genuine refugees or economic refugees.....What are we supposed to do?....Let them in today, sign them up with pseudo names and direct them to the nearest hotel.?

How about some details of your abuse statement


----------



## noco (1 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> How much responsibility do you think the people that got on those leaky boats in the first place should take ?




Yes of course.....They knew the risks and the consequences that goes with those risks.


----------



## banco (1 August 2014)

noco said:


> Who said the kids had been abused......How have they been abused?.......Who have they been abused by?....Were they sexually abused?.....Were they beaten by out authorities? ......do you consider being held in detention is abuse.
> 
> Did it come out of the child senator SHY's mouth......don't take too much notice of that Green Fabian.....she loves to stir and exaggerate and make the situation worse than it is......Every time she goes into detention center, there is a doubling of incidents.......Perhaps they should have let her into Curtain detention center and not let her out.......Note SHY remarks about India......India sure gave her a wrap over the knuckles for her lies.
> 
> ...




Do try and keep up (there's been an ongoing inquiry by human rights commission for months):

Immigration Minister Scott Morrison's claim that children in detention received daily care was not true and he needed to be "better advised", the Australian Human Rights Commission president says.

Professor Gillian Triggs also said there was evidence detained children had tried to poison themselves, despite Mr Morrison's statement the assertions were "sensational".

The third hearing of the commission's inquiry into children in detention on Thursday was told the Immigration Department had advised the independent health provider on Christmas Island not to publish a report that showed alarming rates of mental health issues among child detainees.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...n-detention-20140731-zz7bc.html#ixzz395lWbTpi


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...n-detention-20140731-zz7bc.html#ixzz395lMBcKD


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2014)

banco said:


> Do try and keep up (there's been an ongoing inquiry by human rights commission for months):
> 
> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison's claim that children in detention received daily care was not true and he needed to be "better advised", the Australian Human Rights Commission president says.
> 
> ...




Maybe a revenge Royal Commission coming up from the next Labor government ?


----------



## Julia (1 August 2014)

What do the critics  here imagine are the health and social conditions being experienced by people already determined to be genuine refugees who have been patiently waiting in camps throughout the world for their chance to come here? 

The government is attempting to walk the pretty fine line between providing an absolute deterrent to these well off people who can afford to pay people smugglers to get them here, and a reasonable level of care in detention centres.  They are, however, detention centres, not five star spiritual retreats.

A comment I read recently following an article about the conditions our troops experienced when they were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan made an excellent point.  The writer contrasted the way our soldiers were sleeping on the rocky ground, not even a mat beneath them.   The detainees in some of our detention facilities consider they are being abused if the air conditioning is not to their liking.

Goodness, if some characters like Sarah Hanson Young et al came to visit me in a detention centre, full of loving sympathy and worry, I wouldn't find it too hard to bang my head against the wall, threaten to jump off a roof, etc etc., if i thought it might get me the passage to assisted accommodation and taxpayer funded existence in Australia.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2014)

Julia said:


> What do the critics  here imagine...




In general I agree with your sentiment, apart from the children in the detention centres who should be doing what kids do; ie having fun and going to school. Keeping young children in detention is inhumane imo , and before anyone says "oh but Labor did it as well", they also deserve condemnation for those actions.


----------



## Julia (1 August 2014)

I'm sure we'd all agree that children shouldn't be pawns in the whole sorry business.  But, as long as their parents put them unaccompanied on boats, risking their lives, in the hope that - just because they're children - they will be admitted to community life in Australia, with the ultimate objective of bringing their whole extended families out to join them, they will probably be destined to stay where they are.  Yes, to us it seems awful for the children, but their parents should perhaps have thought about that before sending them.


----------



## banco (1 August 2014)

Julia said:


> I'm sure we'd all agree that children shouldn't be pawns in the whole sorry business.  But, as long as their parents put them unaccompanied on boats, risking their lives, in the hope that - just because they're children - they will be admitted to community life in Australia, with the ultimate objective of bringing their whole extended families out to join them, they will probably be destined to stay where they are.  Yes, to us it seems awful for the children, but their parents should perhaps have thought about that before sending them.




It's up to us where we put them.  It's not like we have no agency in this.


----------



## noco (1 August 2014)

banco said:


> Do try and keep up (there's been an ongoing inquiry by human rights commission for months):
> 
> Immigration Minister Scott Morrison's claim that children in detention received daily care was not true and he needed to be "better advised", the Australian Human Rights Commission president says.
> 
> ...




Banco, I did read the contents of that report of isolated cases of self harm but not abuse as you describe it.

Now lets analyze a few things that may have caused those kids to self harm apart from the fact the Green/Labor coalition allowed them in the first place.....Had the Green/Labor Party not opened the flood gates in 2008, those kids would not be detention and suffering any purported trauma.....when these incidents occur we are quick to point the finger at the Government and blame them for holding them so long......but they are being held there with their parents until such times as our authorities can prove who they, where they have come from and if one or both parents have a criminal record or perhaps been associated with terrorist organisations.  

SELF HARM.

My grand son is now 15 years old, doing well at school, a placid boy who gets on well with his mates.......When he was 3 years old his mother fed him lots of red cordial and flavored milks full of a chemical that affected his brain....He would sink the boot into the cat and constantly harm his 1 year old sister....He would be chastised and punished for his aggression.....his next act would to go to his bedroom and bank his head on the wall......It was yours truly who suggested to his mother that chemicals in those drinks may be the cause.....After her own research, she ceased giving him those drinks...within days that boy became a normal well mannered boy.

So my point is, could this happening in detention centers  whereby kids are being fed similar drinks.

The report stated kids (plural) were drinking detergent but the report did not say how many kids, how old they were and whether it may have been a isolated case whereby a kid mistook it for green cordial.

I went to my local super market last week to buy some super glue and could not find it on the selves......I asked one of the attendants whether they still stocked that product and I was told they are now stored behind the checkout girls because young kids were sniffing it in the store....so these things do happen with kids in our own community......I have been told since then, these particular kids came from broken families.

I did not see any reports of bullying by other kids in the detention centers.....you know the type of happenings in our schools......It is a well known fact that bullying in some of our schools can cause kids, particularly girls to self harm by cutting their wrists and in a few isolate cases, resulting in death.

I am not trying to defend Scott Morrison or the Government......I am merely pointing out the scenarios that may or may not have taken place.

The other point which I raise is we have some 30,000 illegals in detention and it would be impossible to process them all at once in light of the fact that none of them have any ID....I understand that number is slowing being whittled away, with some opting to return to their homeland in lieu of being settled in PNG

So what do we do with kids in the meantime?....Do we take them away from their parents and place them in foster homes in Australia or PNG?....or are they better left with their own parents and how well do some of those parents care about their kids in detention?.....do they all get the love and affection that all kids crave for or do some of them become neglected?

Just a little food for thought before we do anymore finger pointing.


----------



## Julia (1 August 2014)

noco said:


> So what do we do with kids in the meantime?....Do we take them away from their parents and place them in foster homes in Australia or PNG?....or are they better left with their own parents and how well do some of those parents care about their kids in detention?.....do they all get the love and affection that all kids crave for or do some of them become neglected?



Noco, bear in mind that some of these children are not with their parents.  They were sent on a boat by themselves, presumably with the aim of their parents that the Australian government will not put them into a detention centre, will instead admit them to the community, whereupon it will be a relatively short step for their parents and large extended family to be brought here to join them.



banco said:


> It's up to us where we put them.  It's not like we have no agency in this.



See above comment to noco.  Your political affiliation will determine what you consider should happen.
Tough luck for you that your side isn't running the show at present.


----------



## banco (1 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Noco, bear in mind that some of these children are not with their parents.  They were sent on a boat by themselves, presumably with the aim of their parents that the Australian government will not put them into a detention centre, will instead admit them to the community, whereupon it will be a relatively short step for their parents and large extended family to be brought here to join them.
> 
> 
> See above comment to noco.  Your political affiliation will determine what you consider should happen.
> Tough luck for you that your side isn't running the show at present.




Well we sure showed their parents.  At least you didn't pretend that the main reason for deterring boatpeople by being as cruel to them as we can get away with was to stop the drownings. Rather it's that we don't want them here.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2014)

Julia said:


> ...whereupon it will be a relatively short step for their parents and large extended family to be brought here to join them.
> 
> 
> .




I'm not sure that we can assume that any application for family reunion will automatically be approved. 

There is a limit to the number of these places like there is for any of the other migration schemes, so if the government wants to discourage refugees from using this system then all it has to do is knock back their applications or make the family reunion scheme unavailable to them.


----------



## Bintang (2 August 2014)

banco said:


> Well we sure showed their parents.  At least you didn't pretend that the main reason for deterring boatpeople by being as cruel to them as we can get away with was to stop the drownings. Rather it's that we don't want them here.




Absolutely correct. We don't want them here.
Why don't they choose to go some where else? Why don't they  try to illegally enter Singapore or Malaysia or Indonesia instead?


----------



## Julia (2 August 2014)

banco said:


> Well we sure showed their parents.  At least you didn't pretend that the main reason for deterring boatpeople by being as cruel to them as we can get away with was to stop the drownings. Rather it's that we don't want them here.






Bintang said:


> Absolutely correct. We don't want them here.
> Why don't they choose to go some where else? Why don't they  try to illegally enter Singapore or Malaysia or Indonesia instead?



+1 bintang.

Well done, banco.   You got it eventually.  All of the government's measures are to make it crystal clear to intending uninvited people that - if they want to live in Australia - then they can join the thousands already waiting in refugee camps, bereft of funds to pay people smugglers.

Australia has one of the best humanitarian refugee resettlement programs in the world.  It was, however, under Labor brought to almost a complete halt because of the influx of boat people the then government welcomed.

Most fair minded people want to see our support extended to the people who really need it rather than those who just think it might be a nicer place to live than where they perhaps cannot have everything to which they aspire.  



SirRumpole said:


> I'm not sure that we can assume that any application for family reunion will automatically be approved.
> 
> There is a limit to the number of these places like there is for any of the other migration schemes, so if the government wants to discourage refugees from using this system then all it has to do is knock back their applications or make the family reunion scheme unavailable to them.



Sounds simple, doesn't it.  But  it probably isn't, and once a child has been taken into the community it would be my bet that the pressure to allow the family to follow will be difficult to withstand.
Hence the government's determination to deter people from coming in the first place.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2014)

> ... the pressure to allow the family to follow will be difficult to withstand.




Surely not for a government as tough as the current one purports to be...


----------



## Julia (2 August 2014)

The 157 have now been moved to Nauru, a consequence of their decision to refuse to speak with Indian government officials.


----------



## noco (2 August 2014)

Some statistics on detention centers....but nothing on unaccompanied children.....they do exists but just how many is unknown.......If they have arrived without parents, who paid for their way here and who looked after them in Indonesia while awaiting transit to a people smuggler?


http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-aus.../immigration-detention-statistics-may2014.pdf


----------



## So_Cynical (2 August 2014)

There was a piece on ABC 24 today about a rohingya boat arrival of a couple of years ago, he has been assessed as a refugee and granted asylum etc but has had his family visa application put at the back of the pile because the procedure has changed due to Noalition policy.

All Boat arrival family visa sponsors get low priority as explained to him in a letter from the Dept.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/08/refugees-family-reunion-hopes-dashed


----------



## noco (2 August 2014)

Good move by the government to move those 157 from Curtain to Nauru unannounced otherwise we would have had SHY with a rent a crowd demonstrating at the Curtain detention center or out side Parliament house.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...exposed_tamils_refuse_indian_offer_of_asylum/


----------



## noco (3 August 2014)

noco said:


> Good move by the government to move those 157 from Curtain to Nauru unannounced otherwise we would have had SHY with a rent a crowd demonstrating at the Curtain detention center or out side Parliament house.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...exposed_tamils_refuse_indian_offer_of_asylum/




The Green/Labor left wing socialist lawyer goons have been outsmarted and SHY and Marles are furious.

George Newhouse was a Labor candidate and he will do and say anything in attempt to embarrass the government....these ba$xxxs want the boats to start flowing again to prove a political point that the Government has failed with OSB.....What a sad lot they are!!!! 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...awyers-knowledge/story-fn9hm1gu-1227011106802


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## noco (4 August 2014)

What is the Green/Labor coalition really up to with all this legal action to assist asylum seekers?

It is about time the Green /Labor Party came clean on what their intentions are..

Who is paying for the high court action and legal costs?

There is no doubt the Green/Labor comrades are hell bent on opening the flood gates to the people smugglers and more children drowning at sea.

And it is all in the name of scoring political points.

Please read the public comments.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...asylum-goalposts/story-fn9hm1gu-1227012198349


----------



## drsmith (8 August 2014)

noco said:


> Good move by the government to move those 157 from Curtain to Nauru unannounced otherwise we would have had SHY with a rent a crowd demonstrating at the Curtain detention center or out side Parliament house.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...exposed_tamils_refuse_indian_offer_of_asylum/



It's now official that 159 IMA's have been transferred to Department of Immigration and Border Protection authorities so far this year. 

It appears now that OSB is updating these stats monthly.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/operational-updates/releases

Also of interest, 62 IMA transferees were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre so these numbers are starting to grow.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...s/joint-agency-task-force-monthly-update-july


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## orr (9 August 2014)

Scott Morrison like a fibre of asbestos lodged in the lungs of 'Team Australia' . The following is the Metastasis. And Therapy. 



J’Accuse
We, the undersigned, accuse the current Federal Government and both major political parties of wilfully and deliberately:
1.	Pursuing a policy of detention for asylum-seekers, both adults and children, in spite of clear evidence that it causes psychiatric disorders, self-harm and suicide; i
2.	Implementing an inhumane policy of deterrence which requires damaging some to deter others and uses the lives of vulnerable people, the vast majority of whom are found to be refugees, as a means to a political end;
3.	Contravening child protection policy and children’s rights, by continuing to detain children as a first resort when such detention should be a matter of last resort, for the shortest possible time, and subject to independent review; and by detaining children & unaccompanied minors offshore in isolated detention facilities, exposing them to violence, trauma and to poor medical and psycho-social care, with no access to independent monitoring.
4.	Acting against the spirit and intent of UN Conventions and Treaties to which Australia is signatory; ii
5.	Engaging in forced deportations to situations of danger with confirmed fatal outcomesiii;
6.	Persuading the public that cruelty to people who arrive by boat is justifiable on the false pretext that they are ‘illegal’, when in truth they have broken no law by coming to Australia and seeking asylum;
7.	Exploiting community ignorance about asylum-seekers’ needs and circumstances;
8.	Tolerating and/or encouraging racist media coverage (rather than educating and promoting public deliberation, as with closely related issues such as people with mental illness);
9.	Cynically negotiating with poor, weakly governed countries (Nauru/ PNG/Cambodia) to house refugees in circumstances that leave them unsafe;
10. Wasting vast public funds on off shore incarceration which could be spent on humane and efficient processing of claims and crucial social services, while ignoring viable alternative models, potentially at much less cost;
11. Pursuing an arbitrary and unjust refugee determination process which is engineered for failure at each step, aims to prevent protection claims, fails to place all asylum-seekers on an equal footing under Australian law, and pits humanitarian and asylum-seeker refugees against each other by reducing the former to accommodate the latter;
12. Acting against Australia’s health, mental health and well-being policies and ignoring expert advice regarding the implementation of programs to identify and provide psychological support for those at greatest need;
13. Ignoring the long-term harms of such policies to asylum-seekers, and the damage to the social fabric of Australia through promoting the acceptability of an insular, more selfish and less ethical society.
We demand that the government
●	Abandon and dismantle its mandatory detention policy and ‘offshore solution’ for asylum-seekers,
●	Cap detention at a maximum of 30 days, unless a court orders a longer period of detention for good cause shown, and
●	Adopt alternative solutions consistent with obligations under the Refugee Convention.
iSilove D, Austin P, Steel Z. No refuge from terror: the impact of detention on the mental health of trauma-affected refugees seeking asylum in Australia. Transcultural Psychiatry. 2007: 44(3): 359 -93
Coffey GJ, Kaplan I, Sampson RC, Tucci MM. The meaning and mental health consequences of long-term immigration detention for people seeking asylum. Social Science and Medicine. 2010: 70(12): 2070-9.
iithe Convention on Civil and Political Rights (regarding arbitrary detention), the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the Convention against Torture, and the Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities (as demonstrated Through inspections and reports by various UN committees)
iii Phil Glendinning and the Edmund Rice Centre, ongoing research and personal communication; also Deported to Danger (Edmund Rice Centre, 2004), Deported to Danger II (Edmund Rice Centre, 2006), and A Well-Founded Fear (SBS TV, 19/11/08)


Click the link for the signatories; a lot of Doctors in this list with real qualifications....as opposed to quacks.

https://d68ej2dhhub09.cloudfront.net/829-J'accuse_signatories.pdf


----------



## Calliope (9 August 2014)

Okay, 200 of the usual suspects; what about the other 23 million Australians?


----------



## drsmith (9 August 2014)

orr said:


> Click the link for the signatories; a lot of Doctors in this list with real qualifications....as opposed to quacks.



What about the deaths at sea ?

Their moral high ground is hollow.

As I have said many times in the past, immigration should never be in the hands of illegal people smuggling operations that have no regard for the consequences for either the asylum seekers or the target country.


----------



## dutchie (9 August 2014)

orr said:


> Click the link for the signatories; a lot of Doctors in this list with real qualifications....as opposed to quacks.
> 
> https://d68ej2dhhub09.cloudfront.net/829-J'accuse_signatories.pdf





My question to these signatories is - how many should we let in each year?


----------



## Purple XS2 (9 August 2014)

dutchie said:


> My question to these signatories is - how many should we let in each year?




I can't say what the signatories would answer to that, but for many of the open-door advocates the answer is:

_as many millions as it takes to dilute the anglo-Australian proportion of the population to the point of irrelevance._

The Green party for example, despises the Australian mainstream and supports anything and I mean _anything_ that would steer national culture further away from it.

And that's my conclusion from the inside, not the outside.


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2014)

Why do you guys keep dodging the question?

Are Australian governments required to follow the law?

If the laws don't work then change them i.e. make torture of boat people  legal.

See simple, hiding behind previous incumbents follies to defend the indefensible treatment of children etc is degrading your own credibility.................massively.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (9 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> Why do you guys keep dodging the question?
> 
> Are Australian governments required to follow the law?
> 
> ...




There is an even bigger question dodged repeatedly by the Greens and advocates of an open door policy.

What is the upper limit the Greens would put on the number of refugees allowed entry to Australia per annum?

This has never ever been answered, though repeatedly asked. 

gg


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## drsmith (9 August 2014)

IF,

After all the time you've spent in this thread criticising this government's policies from when they were in opposition (while boat arrivals under Labor reached 1,000 per week and with over 1,000 deaths at sea) and since they've been in government (largely stopping the boats), what's your solution ?

Of specific interest is how you would stop illegal people smuggling from that hollow high moral ground from which you like to preach


----------



## orr (9 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> What about the deaths at sea ?
> 
> Their moral high ground is hollow.




The easiest way to diagnose a Quack from a Doctor, is that the Quack will treat the symptoms and the Doctor will treat the Disease.
The Quack's efforts will in some cases disguise the underlying disease. Much 'Whoo Harr' and excitement will surround the 'miracle cure' whilst the disease steadily eats into the patient destroying healthy tissue. Medical science has come along way but Quacks are still numerous pedalling to the unworldly, the ill-informed and superficial their poisons dressed up as 'miracle cures'. The damage; sometimes reversible, sometimes not...but to fix, aways, always at much greater cost.

Scott Morrison...Stool softener  to the Polyps?


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## drsmith (9 August 2014)

orr said:


> The easiest way to diagnose a Quack from a Doctor, is that the Quack will treat the symptoms and the Doctor will treat the Disease.



What then do you regard as the disease ?


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> There is an even bigger question dodged repeatedly by the Greens and advocates of an open door policy.
> 
> What is the upper limit the Greens would put on the number of refugees allowed entry to Australia per annum?
> 
> ...




Completely agree but the Greens are not the government and are not calling the shots.


----------



## noco (9 August 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> There is an even bigger question dodged repeatedly by the Greens and advocates of an open door policy.
> 
> What is the upper limit the Greens would put on the number of refugees allowed entry to Australia per annum?
> 
> ...




GG, the Green/Labor left wing socialist Fabians opened the flood gates to the illegals to create hatred and division in the community......that is their modus operandi...it is in their books of rules.


----------



## drsmith (9 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> Completely agree but the Greens are not the government and are not calling the shots.



Thank goodness although they are still very much trying to.

When they were calling the shots under the Gillard government, boat arrivals as noted above reached 1,000 per week and there of course those accidents, those tragedies at sea as the Greens resident child senator described them. Clearly a lesser of two evils in her view.

With boat arrival numbers substantially reduced, the need for detention will also be substantially reduced with time as happened under the Howard government. In other words, in time, the Greens will largely get their way on the specific issue of detention although obviously not on the ideology where they only shed crocodile tears in relation to human suffering.


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> IF,
> 
> After all the time you've spent in this thread criticising this government's policies from when they were in opposition (while boat arrivals under Labor reached 1,000 per week and with over 1,000 deaths at sea) and since they've been in government (largely stopping the boats), what's your solution ?
> 
> Of specific interest is how you would stop illegal people smuggling from that hollow high moral ground from which you like to preach




I criticised Abbott because of his hypocrisy in opposition, there is no denying Rudd opened the door and reignited the problem Bowen tried to legislate a solution Hockey stood up in the house shedding tears about what would happen to children.

I am not on a Labor good Coalition bad on this point just Abbott is a tosser  

There is no hollow high moral ground in asking a simple question should a government follow its own laws?

If it is a requirement then they should legislate torture of boat people as a deterrent.

That is what you are supporting currently cheering on its all good because its stopping the boats.

Means to an ends great put it in law.


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> Thank goodness although they are still very much trying to.
> 
> When they were calling the shots under the Gillard government, boat arrivals as noted above reached 1,000 per week and there of course those accidents, those tragedies at sea as the Greens resident child senator described them. Clearly a lesser of two evils in her view.
> 
> With boat arrival numbers substantially reduced, the need for detention will also be substantially reduced with time as happened under the Howard government. In other words, in time, the Greens will largely get their way on the specific issue of detention although obviously not on the* ideology where they only shed crocodile tears in relation to human suffering*.




See my post above Hockey takes 1st prize for crocodile tears his position is an epic fail I think the Greens genuinely believe you should welcome all refugees


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## drsmith (9 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> I think the Greens genuinely believe you should welcome all refugees



That's right IF.

Open borders and they don't care how many drown in order to achieve that objective.



IFocus said:


> I criticised Abbott because of his hypocrisy in opposition, there is no denying Rudd opened the door and reignited the problem Bowen tried to legislate a solution Hockey stood up in the house shedding tears about what would happen to children.




I'm still curious as to your solution. Is it open borders Greens style or is it Labor's Malaysia solution or is it something else that occupies the space in between ?


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## Calliope (9 August 2014)

There wouldn't be one of orr's 202 bleeding hearts that didn't vote Labor or Green and the same goes for Muslim illegal immigrants. The open door policy the bleeding hearts advocate is a political manoeuvre to raise the Muslim vote to the tipping point where Federal Liberal seats pass to Labor. 

J'accuse orr's 202 hypocrites of not giving a stuff abouf the welfare of the illegal's children or deaths at sea. Like Hamas they are just using children as a political weapon.


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## dutchie (9 August 2014)

It really is time for Australia to restrict its immigration.
We cannot afford to wait for a lethal attack before acting.



> We’ll fight radical Islam for 100 years, says ex-army head Peter Leahy
> 
> The Australian
> August 09, 2014 12:00AM
> ...




More: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...018630297?nk=68eca8c059d3239177be0049fb2cac66


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## Julia (9 August 2014)

orr said:


> Click the link for the signatories; a lot of Doctors in this list with real qualifications....as opposed to quacks.



Where is their concern for the hundreds of thousands who have been waiting to come here, already proven genuine refugees, still mired in refugee camps for so many years?   By providing sufficient deterrent to the people wealthy enough to pay people smugglers, those with more genuine need will receive the support they deserve.



Calliope said:


> Okay, 200 of the usual suspects; what about the other 23 million Australians?



Yes, just so.



dutchie said:


> It really is time for Australia to restrict its immigration.
> We cannot afford to wait for a lethal attack before acting.



Yet, as has been shown on other threads on this forum, any risk of jihadist attacks on Australian soil seems to be dismissed as very unlikely .  The hatred by fanatical muslims for the infidel has been made clear enough.  Probably only the eventual failure of intelligence agencies to foil a plan will wake people up.


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

Massive migration fraud a greater threat than boat people ?

If you don't think so , read this



> Terror touches down: visa fraud, migration crime ‘rampant,’ Immigration Department files reveal
> 
> "Rampant visa fraud and migration crime involving people flying into Australia are going unchecked while the government focuses on stopping boats, according to secret government files detailing entrenched Immigration Department failings.
> 
> ...


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## noco (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Massive migration fraud a greater threat than boat people ?
> 
> If you don't think so , read this




Rumpy, is it any wonder it was allowed to happen under the previous Government.......They slashed millions of dollars from  the AFP budget which in turn reduced their power of control over who came into the country.....the AFP virtually became ineffective.

In the past few months the Coalition have strengthened the resources for the AFP in which case we will now see some action to stop the rort in co-ordination with the Immigration Department.


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

noco said:


> In the past few months the Coalition have strengthened the resources for the AFP in which case we will now see some action to stop the rort in co-ordination with the Immigration Department.




I should jolly well hope so, but I suggest that this thread is now irrelevant as the boat people seem to have stopped and we should start another one about legal migration rorts and keep an eye on how the government tackles that problem.


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## noco (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I should jolly well hope so, but I suggest that this thread is now irrelevant as the boat people seem to have stopped and we should start another one about legal migration rorts and keep an eye on how the government tackles that problem.




I disagree with you...the thread is still relevant......it does not just refer to boat people...no need for another thread as Joe has pointed out.


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I should jolly well hope so, but I suggest that this thread is now irrelevant as the boat people seem to have stopped and we should start another one about legal migration rorts and keep an eye on how the government tackles that problem.




I doubt it , your excellency.

Inevitably the ALP will at some stage in the future regain government, and their first action will be to encourage the boats again.

Legal rorts need to be examined, been going on for over 200 years

gg


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

noco said:


> I disagree with you...the thread is still relevant......it does not just refer to boat people...no need for another thread as Joe has pointed out.




Where did Joe point what out ?

The thread is "Asylum" Immigrants. The point is that most of the people mentioned in the SMH article I quoted are not seeking asylum, they come here on visas.

Perhaps Joe can speak for himself.


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Inevitably the ALP will at some stage in the future regain government




Maybe sooner than some may hope


But if they aren't hobbled by the Greens I think Labor has learned the lesson. Manus Island was their policy, and they didn't close down Nauru.


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## noco (9 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Where did Joe point what out ?
> 
> The thread is "Asylum" Immigrants. The point is that most of the people mentioned in the SMH article I quoted are not seeking asylum, they come here on visas.
> 
> Perhaps Joe can speak for himself.




Joe has spoken.....you will note it appears at the top of General Chat when you connect....It has been there since you became a member and for all to see.



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## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

> Joe has spoken.....you will note it appears at the top of General Chat when you connect....It has been there since you became a member and for all to see.




Well, if you are saying that another thread on visa rorts is too similar to one on "Asylum Immigrants", I don't agree, but I'll keep posting on this thread just to keep you happy.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2014)

Visa fraud suspects fled after wiring $1m overseas



> A corrupt Immigration Department official and her husband helped run a $3 million criminal migration racket involving more than 1000 fraudulent visa applications.
> 
> Fairfax Media can reveal that Reetika Ajjan and her husband, Jeetender, were able to flee Australia three days after  immigration and federal agents raided their home in October 2011 – having wired more than $1 million to overseas bank accounts in 48 hours. Investigators had  failed to take basic measures to stop them from leaving the country.
> 
> ...





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...1m-overseas-20140807-3dbmu.html#ixzz39tld6R3F


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## Joe Blow (10 August 2014)

Just briefly on the issue of keeping threads on topic:

This thread should be about asylum immigration as much as possible. Threads that drift too far off topic tend to lose their focus and relevance.  

There are a number of other threads on immigration that anyone is welcome to revive if they wish to discuss other aspects of immigration to Australia.

Immigration stupidity?
Cut in Immigration?
Skilled Immigration Changes
Immigration versus Culture Retention
Our Immigration standards?


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## noco (10 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Visa fraud suspects fled after wiring $1m overseas
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Perhaps these fraudsters were being protected by a corrupt Government official or even the Immigration Minister....like money in brown paper bags.


*Mr Morrison said the ''serious allegations'' revealed by Fairfax Media had occurred under the previous Labor government, while stressing that the integrity of Australia's visa and migration programs was ''incredibly important''.

The fresh revelations are likely to increase pressure on the Immigration Department and force the government to consider placing it under the jurisdiction of the national corruption watchdog, the Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity.

In an extraordinary twist, the department's latest annual report cites its role in uncovering the migration racket linked to Ms Ajjan to highlight its success in combating migration crime.

But the annual report omits any mention of the role of its own official in what is described as among the ''the most sophisticated cases of organised migration fraud'' ever detected by the department.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...1m-overseas-20140807-3dbmu.html#ixzz39vqfmIUL*


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## noco (10 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, if you are saying that another thread on visa rorts is too similar to one on "Asylum Immigrants", I don't agree, but I'll keep posting on this thread just to keep you happy.




Rumpy, it is not a case of making me happy because I am already happy.

As you are a relatively new member of ASF, I thought it was my duty to point out what was obvious to all and it has been there since the 12th June 2005.

You can be forgiven if you did not notice it.. so please do not feel embarrassed about...we all make mistakes.


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## noco (10 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe sooner than some may hope
> 
> 
> But if they aren't hobbled by the Greens I think Labor has learned the lesson. Manus Island was their policy, and they didn't close down Nauru.




So you are insisting Manus Island was Labor's policy? The only addition was the threat of those illegals being settled in PNG which I have pointed out in the past would never work due to the PNG culture.

Excuse me, but it was the Howard Governments original policy which Labor dismantled and then Labor resurrected it after being dragged kicking and screaming.......Rudd, after stuffing things up in 2008 decided discretion was the better part of valor and could see the political advantage in saving some of Labor's furniture at the 2013 election and that is the only reason he proceeded with it.


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## IFocus (10 August 2014)

If we take the definition of torture to be the deliberate harming of people in order to coerce them into a desired outcome, I think it does fulfil that definition. It has characteristics which over time reliably cause harm to people’s mental health. We have very clear evidence that that’s the case.”

Dr Peter Young, a former chief psychiatrist to Australia’s detention centres, describing the government’s treatment of asylum seekers as akin to torture.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/coach...oots-again-20140808-101v5q.html#ixzz39w0SaRSl


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## SirRumpole (10 August 2014)

noco said:


> Rumpy, it is not a case of making me happy because I am already happy.
> 
> As you are a relatively new member of ASF, I thought it was my duty to point out what was obvious to all and it has been there since the 12th June 2005.
> 
> You can be forgiven if you did not notice it.. so please do not feel embarrassed about...we all make mistakes.




noco, I appreciate your effort, thank you.

Following Joe's advice I have posted the two visa rort posts in the "Immigration Stupidity" thread


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## drsmith (11 August 2014)

Refugee resettlement deal with Cambodia imminent,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-asylum-seekers-imminent-20140810-102ht3.html
http://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/deal-refugees-expected-very-soon


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## IFocus (12 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> Refugee resettlement deal with Cambodia imminent,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-asylum-seekers-imminent-20140810-102ht3.html
> http://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/deal-refugees-expected-very-soon





Will be waiting for more tears from Joe Hockey




> *A controversial deal* to allow Australia to send refugees to Cambodia is imminent and could be signed as early as this week, sources have told Fairfax Media.
> 
> Tom Vargas, from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, said the Australia-Cambodia deal was “not in the spirit of resettlement”.
> 
> “A real solution is not to send them to a country that is still recovering from a horrible civil war that killed millions of its people.”




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...s-imminent-20140810-102ht3.html#ixzz3AAKW9jOz


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## drsmith (19 August 2014)

Having largely stopped the boats and hence the deaths at sea that Labor and the Greens with all their crocodile tears couldn't or even wanted too, this government can now turn to dealing with the legacy of failure inherited from the previous government,



> More than 1500 children being held in immigration detention on the Australian mainland will be released into the community on bridging visas while their refugee applications are processed, the government said on Tuesday. Of those children, 150 are locked in detention centres on the mainland, while the remainder are in community detention.
> 
> But Immigration Minister Scott Morrison said the plan would not extend to children being detained offshore because doing so would remove a deterrent to people smugglers.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ose-in-mainland-detention-20140819-3dxdi.html


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## drsmith (24 August 2014)

> 'Childhood ends' when young asylum seekers enter detention




Life ends when people drown at sea.



> 'Do ends justify the means', Morrison asked




A good question for Labor in their softening of the Howard government's policies and for the child senator in relation to her "accidents" and "tragedies".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-22/moral-burden-will-not-impede-border-policies-morrison/5687820

Not only should the former Labor government be interviewed, so should the Greens.


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## Julia (24 August 2014)

drsmith said:


> Not only should the former Labor government be interviewed, so should the Greens.




+1 and then some.  Gillian Triggs,HR Commissioner, sat by and said absolutely nothing throughout all the years of Labor's offshore processing.  Now that the Abbott government have actually moved a significant number of children out of the detention into which they were placed under Labor, she is making a huge issue about the cruelty of the Abbott government.

Labor should not be blamed for her abuse of her role.  If pressed, they continue to support offshore detention.
But The Greens need to be forced to answer such questions as "what level of uninvited arrivals to Australia do you support?   There are millions of people looking for a better life, many of whom have already spent years in refugee camps throughout the world.   Do you advocate just opening our borders to anyone and everyone who wants to come  here, and if so, how will you fund it?"

This question is continually asked but the Greens have never once come up with an answer.


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## noco (24 August 2014)

Illegal immigration in reverse.

Here's a thought . . . . If you are ready for the adventure of a lifetime, try this :

A. Go to Pakistan , Afghanistan , Iraq or Iran illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense. Demand a free house, benefits and food.

B. Once there, demand that the local government provide free medical care for you and your entire family.

C. Demand that all nurses and doctors be fluent in English, and that all food be cooked according to your specifications in the hospital.

D. Demand free local government forms, bulletins, etc. Be printed in English.

E. Procreate abundantly.

F. Deflect any criticism of this allegedly irresponsible reproductive Behaviour with, 'It is a cultural thing; you wouldn't understand.'

G. Keep your original identity strong. Fly your home country's national flag from your rooftop, or proudly display it in your front window, or on your car bumper.

H. Speak only English at home and in public, and make sure that your children do likewise.

I. Demand classes on English culture in the Muslim school system.

J. Demand a local country driving license or national insurance number equivalent

K. This will afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimise your unauthorised, illegal, presence in Pakistan , Afghanistan or Iraq

L. Drive around with no car tax or insurance and ignore local traffic laws.

M. Insist that the Police teach English to all its officers.

N. Organise protest marches against your host country, inciting violence against non-white, non-Christians, and the government that let you in.

Good luck! You'll soon be dead..

It would never happen in Pakistan , Afghanistan , Iraq or Iran (or any other Muslim country in the world for that matter) except in the:
UK , US, Canada or Australia ,
Because we are run by soft, politically correct politicians that are too scared to 'offend' anyone.

If you agree, pass it on.

If you don't, go ahead and try the above in Pakistan , Afghanistan or Iraq .....


----------



## noco (25 August 2014)

This Professor Gillian Twiggs was appointed by the Green/Labor left wing socialist in 2012 and is obviously a Labor Party stooge.

Why did she wait to hold off this inquiry until 2014?

Why has she not called  on the ex 4 Labor Party Immigration Ministers to give evidence and put them  through the same interrogation as she has Scott Morrison?

Why has she stated such inaccuracies of happenings on Christmas when they have been proved false?

I watched the whole disgusting show on TV from beginning to end....she sickened me with her tactics and she should either resign or be sacked.

Ah yes.....blind 'FREDDY' can see it all.....grilled by the Green/Labor Party in an attempt to embarrass the Abbott Government.......what a low life lot.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...ren-in-detention/story-fni0ffxg-1227034983124


----------



## drsmith (25 August 2014)

noco said:


> This Professor Gillian Twiggs was appointed by the Green/Labor left wing socialist in 2012 and is obviously a Labor Party stooge.
> 
> Why did she wait to hold off this inquiry until 2014?



She's no match for Scott Morrison or the other gentleman testifying. The prison exchange (which includes the bit about armed guards) starts from about 2:50.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqelojjTmDc


----------



## drsmith (25 August 2014)

When you stop the boats, you can close detention centres.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-25/curtin-detention-centre-closure-imminent/5695314


----------



## IFocus (31 August 2014)

Pussy Riot members liken Australian asylum detention to Russian justice

Nadya Tolokonnikova and Masha Alekhina tell Sydney audience detention centres are ‘similar to what is happening in Russia’


http://www.theguardian.com/music/20...n-australian-asylum-detention-russian-justice


----------



## drsmith (31 August 2014)

Pussy Riot sounds like something the child senator should join.



> Pussy Riot is a Russian feminist punk rock protest group based in Moscow.




https://www.google.com.au/#q=pussy+riot


----------



## Julia (31 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> Pussy Riot members liken Australian asylum detention to Russian justice
> 
> Nadya Tolokonnikova and Masha Alekhina tell Sydney audience detention centres are ‘similar to what is happening in Russia’



So now we should consider the views of a disaffected bunch of teenagers in Russia who expressed anti-Putin sentiments almost certainly knowing that to do so would reap the results it did?
I don't think so.


----------



## drsmith (31 August 2014)

I can see SHY jammin with Pussy Riot,


----------



## drsmith (1 September 2014)

No boats for the month of August.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...es/releases/monthly-operational-update-august

The number of voluntary returns from an offshore processing has now reached 412 since this government was sworn in and is running at about 50 per month.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...joint-agency-task-force-monthly-update-august

So far this year there's been 1 boat carrying 157 IMA's. There was also an additional 2 IMA's accepted from an earlier boat on medical grounds taking the total for the year to 159. The remainder on that earlier boat were returned to Indonesia under the government's turn back policy.

For the first 8 months of last year there were 268 boats in total and 25 during the month of August.


----------



## noco (1 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> I can see SHY jammin with Pussy Riot,





I saw SHY poor an ice bucket over her head......What a shame the bucket didn't get stuck on her head.


----------



## dutchie (2 September 2014)

noco said:


> I saw SHY poor an ice bucket over her head.......




It would be good if she did it each time just before she spoke on any issue.


----------



## noco (8 September 2014)

This is something that I have been harping on for a long time......Infiltration and domination of the Western world by Muslims.

If this doesn't scare the living daylights out of you, I don't know what will.

And to think Gillard allowed 50,000 to come here in just 4 years.

Islam is as bad as communism.



I hope everyone will take the time to read this and not treat the warning as just another "Chicken Little" story....




  (YEARS AGO, [WE] LIVED/WORKED IN LONDON FOR ONE YEAR...ALL VERY PROPER ...VERY ENGLISH....LOVELY.

   WE WOULD MAKE TRIPS TO EUROPE.....IT WAS ALL THAT WE HAD READ/DREAMED ABT.....PERFECT....POLITE....FRIENDLY.

   .NOT THAT LONG AGO, WE EXPERIENCED THE DIFFERENCE...........SCARY.... ..AND HOW VERY SAD.............AND NOW I HAVE

   JUST READ THIS......
















Geert Wilders is a Member of the Dutch Parliament.



In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: "Who lost Europe ?" Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom the Netherlands , at the Four Seasons in New York , introducing an Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem .

Dear friends,
Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission.  All is not well in the old world.  There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic.  We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe.  This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West.  The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First, I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe ..  Then, I will say a few things about Islam.  To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem ..

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children. Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead. With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read. You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity. These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics. These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe . These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe .  With larger congregations than there are in churches.  And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region.  Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam , Marseille and Malmo in Sweden ..  In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim.   Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods. Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils.  In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims.  Non-Muslim women routinely hear '*****, *****'.  Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin .  The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves.  Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels , because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.  French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya , Israel ..  I could go on forever with stories like this. Stories about Islamization.

San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering  25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now.  Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers.  And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate.  But there are few signs of that.  The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France .  One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks. The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate. Muslims demand what they call 'respect'.  And this is how we give them respect.  We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority.  We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey .

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example, against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots.   Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus.  I call the perpetrators 'settlers',  because that is what they are.  They do not come to integrate into our societies; they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam.  Therefore, they are settlers.

Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries.  Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet.  His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized.  Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem.  But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time.  Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed.  Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.  If it is good for Islam, it is good.  If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion.  Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins.  But in its essence Islam is a political ideology.  It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person.  Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life.  Islam means 'submission'.  Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia.  If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.  The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor.  I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times.  I support Israel , first, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz , second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance.   Israel is facing the front lines of Jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines , Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan , Lebanon , and Aceh in Indonesia .   Israel is simply in the way, the same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel .  It is a war against the West.  It is Jihad.   Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us.  If there would have been no Israel , Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest.  Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities.  But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West .  It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values.  On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam.  They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed.  The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning.  It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination.  If they can get Israel , they can get everything.  So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'.  In my country, the Netherlands , 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II.  And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat.  Yet there is a greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing.  The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine.  An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs.  With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome , Athens and Jerusalem ....

Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts.  My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives.  All throughout Europe , American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish.  My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians.  We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us.  We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams.  Future generations would never forgive us.  We cannot squander our liberties.  We simply do not have the right to do so.

We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.

Please take the time to read and understand what is written here, Please send it to every free person that you know, it is so very important. 


 Original email source:
Dr. Philip Wander BDS,  MGDSRCS , FFHOM.


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2014)

Gotta watch some people:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=823_1389996573&comments=1


----------



## drsmith (16 September 2014)

Bill Shorten says still supports offshore processing but he's about as convincing as when he supported a policy position of Julia Gillard when he didn't know what it actually was.

He should take note of the unfolding disaster in the Mediterranean.

http://www.news.com.au/world/hundre...ff-italian-coast/story-fndir2ev-1227059834943


----------



## drsmith (20 September 2014)

A year of stronger borders.

http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/sm/2014/sm217927.htm

The numbers speak for themselves.



> 'There were a total of 401 successful people smuggling ventures with 26 543 people on board under the former Labor government in the year preceding Operation Sovereign Borders - 18 September 2012 to 17 September 2013.
> 
> 'There have been 23 ventures with 1 265 people on board under Operation Sovereign Borders - 18 September 2013 to 17 September 2014. All but one venture arrived before the Coalition Government introduced turning back boats in late December 2013.
> 
> ...




Of the 1,265 above, only 159 are this year and it seems there's been no departures from Indonesia for 4 months.


----------



## drsmith (22 September 2014)

Even after Labor's record of failure and tragedy in this policy area and the current government's success in fixing the mess, the true believers still don't get it.



> The outgoing administrator of Christmas Island says the apparent success of the federal government's `stop the boats' policy has come at too high a price.
> 
> Jon Stanhope, the former Labor chief minister of the ACT, made the comment after it emerged he would be succeeded on Christmas Island by retired Liberal backbencher Barry Haase.




https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25078776/asylum-seeker-policy-price-too-high/


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2014)

It looks like a refugee deal with Cambodia is about to be signed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-...cambodia-to-sign-refugee-resettlement/5766282


----------



## drsmith (25 September 2014)

Government does a deal with Clive Palmer to reintroduce TPV's to deal with 30,000 caseload from the Labor government.

It includes a new category, safe haven enterprise visa (SHEV). These include access to other visa types subject to certain conditions.



> But the SHEV will allow recipients, who work for three-and-a-half years, to apply for other onshore visas including family and skilled visas.
> 
> It's the best that could be achieved bearing in mind that Labor and the Greens stand in the way of every attempt of this government to solve the problem Labor itself created in office.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-25/government-to-reintroduce-temporary-protection-visas/5768084

Also, a tidbit from Scott Morrison on upcoming resettlement deal with Cambodia,


> 10:56am: Regarding the government's pending deal with Cambodia to resettle refugees, Morrison says that the arrangement is "strictly voluntary".
> 
> "Anyone who goes to Cambodia will have chosen themselves to go to Cambodia."




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...cs-live-september-25-2014-20140925-3gj0q.html


----------



## IFocus (25 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> It looks like a refugee deal with Cambodia is about to be signed.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-...cambodia-to-sign-refugee-resettlement/5766282




I wonder if Hockey will cry a river of tears?


----------



## drsmith (25 September 2014)

I wonder how many of the tears shed by Labor and the Greens over the men, women and children who drowned at sea under their policies were genuine ?

Not many judging by the results.

The Greens in particular don't shed genuine tears for mere accidents or tragedies.


----------



## IFocus (26 September 2014)

I think Cambodia is a much better place than Malaysia to send refugees


----------



## IFocus (26 September 2014)

Another dirty back room deal the Palmer government is functioning well


Scott Morrison seeks legal changes to block asylum seeker appeals

Immigration minister’s new bill will introduce two new classes of temporary protection visas and amend laws to head off upcoming legal challeges


http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...w-law-to-block-asylum-seeker-legal-challenges


----------



## So_Cynical (26 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> I think Cambodia is a much better place than Malaysia to send refugees




I thought it fitting to look back at what the Noalition were saying about the Malaysia deal at the time.



			
				Bronwyn Bishop said:
			
		

> "The proposed Malaysian solution - what a hideous term it is - is in fact a trade in human flesh," Liberal frontbencher Bronwyn Bishop told Parliament.
> 
> "It is swapping human beings from point A to point B, and it is totally and utterly unacceptable to this side of the House."






			
				Joe Hockey said:
			
		

> An emotional Joe Hockey told Parliament of his father's journey to Australia as a refugee in 1948.
> 
> The shadow treasurer said he could not accept the Government's plan to send asylum seekers to Malaysia without proper human rights protections.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-27/asylum-seeker-debate-ends/4096570

Perhaps they wont be sending 13 year olds to Cambodia.?


----------



## SirRumpole (26 September 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I thought it fitting to look back at what the Noalition were saying about the Malaysia deal at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So , what does "voluntary" actually mean in this context I wonder ?

Keeping them locked up so long they go crazy enough to think anything is better than where they are.

This Cambodia deal is really the pits. It's worse than sending them back to their own country.


----------



## drsmith (26 September 2014)

My goodness.

I think even Labor has moved beyond the sour grapes of their flawed and failed Malaysia solution.


----------



## Julia (26 September 2014)

I don't see much difference between the Malaysia plan and that for Cambodia.

Critics might like to remember that the people for whom the government is presently trying to find a resettlement solution were those who arrived during the free- for- all admission by boat during the Labor government, that same Labor government which turned an almost zero detention centre population into the thousands the present government is having to deal with.

And how do the same critics know that Labor will not actually support the Cambodia arrangement?   They have stated that they will wait to make judgement until seeing the detail.

And if it's preferable for people to return to their own country, then I'm sure the government would be happy to arrange that.

Take your choices.  Either we encourage people to bypass the UNHCR process and flood into Australia or we put in place harsh deterrents.   We may indeed find the process unpalatable.  But personally I find extending the time that already-determined refugees who have already been waiting in squalid camps throughout the world for many years much more unpalatable.


----------



## noco (26 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> I think Cambodia is a much better place than Malaysia to send refugees




The Australian Government are not sending any refugees to Cambodia, they will go there of their own choice.......they do not have to go if they don't want to.

Labors Malaysian proposal gave refugees no choice.


----------



## noco (26 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> Another dirty back room deal the Palmer government is functioning well
> 
> 
> Scott Morrison seeks legal changes to block asylum seeker appeals
> ...




Ah, the good old red Guardian to the rescue......a dirty back room deal????...I think it is brilliant.

Scott Morrison is one smart cookie and is a jump ahead of them all and lets be thankful he has the nous to do it where others have failed.


----------



## IFocus (26 September 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I thought it fitting to look back at what the Noalition were saying about the Malaysia deal at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for that SC the complete hypocrisy practised by Abbott and his cohorts in opposition / government is absolutely stunning.


----------



## noco (26 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> Thanks for that SC the complete hypocrisy practised by Abbott and his cohorts in opposition / government is absolutely stunning.




IF, what hypocrisy are you talking about?....care to elaborate?


----------



## bunyip (27 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> Thanks for that SC the complete hypocrisy practised by Abbott and his cohorts in opposition / government is absolutely stunning.




The complete hypocrisy practiced by *YOU* is absolutely stunning!
As Julia pointed out, the main reason we have all these illegal immigrants in detention is that your Labor heroes threw the gates open and invited them in en masse. Not a word of criticism from you when that was happening. But now that we have a decent government that’s stopped the illegal boats from coming, and is doing its best to deal with the aftermath of the shemozzle that Labor created, that big mouth of yours has been spewing non stop criticism. Your attitude is downright pathetic – you have no credibility whatsoever on this forum.


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## dutchie (27 September 2014)

bunyip said:


> The complete hypocrisy practiced by *YOU* is absolutely stunning!
> As Julia pointed out, the main reason we have all these illegal immigrants in detention is that your Labor heroes threw the gates open and invited them in en masse. Not a word of criticism from you when that was happening. But now that we have a decent government that’s stopped the illegal boats from coming, and is doing its best to deal with the aftermath of the shemozzle that Labor created, that big mouth of yours has been spewing non stop criticism. Your attitude is downright pathetic – you have no credibility whatsoever on this forum.




IFocus, I think you have just been outed as a hypocrite.


----------



## drsmith (27 September 2014)

Julia said:


> I don't see much difference between the Malaysia plan and that for Cambodia.



The main difference is that Malaysia was to be a one option regional processing solution whereas Cambodia is a post-processing resettlement location and is part of a much broader and clearly effective strategy.

Beyond that, I refer to the comments I made about Labor's Malaysia solution at the time it was proposed. 

The extent to which the flow of boats increased between the failure of that solution and the end of the Gillard government ultimately demonstrated how serious Labor was in actually stopping the boats.

The high moral ground preachers that are the UNHCR and the left (including the ABC culture) are of course not happy because it's another element to deterring international wealth redistribution by stealth.


----------



## noco (27 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> The main difference is that Malaysia was to be a one option regional processing solution whereas Cambodia is a post-processing resettlement location and is part of a much broader and clearly effective strategy.
> 
> Beyond that, I refer to the comments I made about Labor's Malaysia solution at the time it was proposed.
> 
> ...




The Labor Malaysian proposal was for us to send them 800 illegals in return for 4000 genuine UNHCR refugees....Those 800 had no choice but be sent to Malaysia.... Malaysia is not a signatory to the UNHCR convention.

The latest news is Cambodia will be taking 5 or 6 from Nauru on a trial basis.

I am not sure which would be the lesser of two evils, Cambodia or PNG.

If Cambodia practices Islam, then those being sent there may very well fit in....PNG is certainly NOT Islamic and there is no way a refugee would be welcome.


----------



## bunyip (28 September 2014)

The UNHCR can get stuffed as far as I’m concerned. They’re a bunch of idealistic, unrealistic fools. It’s all very well for them to tell us we should be taking more refugees, but they never consider how we’d fund further intake, or what effect it would have on our way of life, our culture, our economy, and our security.
All this humanitarian bull**it makes me sick. If anyone wants to push the humanitarian argument, then why doesn’t their spirit of humanity extend to the homeless people in their communities? Why don’t they approach a homeless man/woman/teenager/family, and say to them _‘You don’t have to be homeless – we can make room for you at my place, come and live with me.’_

I’ll tell you why they don’t do that.......
* Cost – you have to reach into your wallet if you keep someone under your roof and provide all their needs.
* Security – how do you know the person is trustworthy. You might unwittingly take in someone who sexually assaults your wife or children, or thieves from you, or becomes violent.
* Incompatibility – the person you take in might have little respect for your values and standards, might be slovenly in their living habits, might not pull their weight around the house, might be nothing but a burden to you. 

And so on and so on. These and various other reasons are why the members of the UNHCR, and others who are so fond of telling us we should take in more refugees, don’t take strangers into their own homes. 
But aren’t all these reasons applicable to refugees as well? 
Security, incompatibility, and above all cost, are all legitimate reasons why we should call a halt to the grossly irresponsible policy of laying out the welcome mat to every down and outer around the world who has problems that he or she wants to escape.
It’s not about being cold and callous and uncaring – it’s about being responsible enough to realize that first and foremost our duty is to the people of our own country. Anyone with a strongly humanitarian spirit can find plenty of opportunities right here in Australia to help people less fortunate than themselves.
We need to get rid of the ridiculous mentality that we have an obligation to play nursemaid to the rest of the world. We don’t. Fortunately we now have a federal government who realizes that.


----------



## IFocus (28 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> IFocus, I think you have just been outed as a hypocrite.




Feel free to post your support for this government and their policies but the personal attacks are as unwelcome as they are a fools basis for discussion as well as being against the rules set by the forum.

The rules of the forum are set by Joe not yours or bunyips narrow opinions.


----------



## banco (28 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> The main difference is that Malaysia was to be a one option regional processing solution whereas Cambodia is a post-processing resettlement location and is part of a much broader and clearly effective strategy.
> .




Main difference for you is that one was proposed by your team and the other wasn't.


----------



## drsmith (28 September 2014)

banco said:


> Main difference for you is that one was proposed by your team and the other wasn't.



Your response doesn't address the specific point I've made.

I know its hard for some to accept but my team (as you've put it) is doing a far better job of managing our border security than the previous team did when they were in office.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> I know its hard for some to accept but my team (as you've put it) is doing a far better job of managing our border security than the previous team did when they were in office.




Agreed, they have.

When it comes to Cambodia though, that option is about as low as anyone can go in the humanity stakes, giving people the option of a corrupt and violent country versus a corrupt and bankrupt rock in the middle of the ocean.

Yeah, great choice, but entirely voluntary of course. Voluntary my backside.


----------



## drsmith (28 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> When it comes to Cambodia though, that option is about as low as anyone can go in the humanity stakes, giving people the option of a corrupt and violent country versus a corrupt and bankrupt rock in the middle of the ocean.



Try the bottom of the ocean.

That's where over 1,000 finished up under the humanity of the previous government.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> Try the bottom of the ocean.
> 
> That's where over 1,000 finished up under the humanity of the previous government.




Sure, and the Labor government sunk them with submarines


----------



## drsmith (28 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, and the Labor government sunk them with submarines



The stats are outlined in the following link.

http://sievx.com/articles/background/DrowningsTable.pdf

The tally during the time of the Rudd and Gillard governments is over 1,100 and it can be argued that the 56 that immediately followed in the early days of the current government were a direct legacy of the policies of the previous government.


----------



## noco (28 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed, they have.
> 
> When it comes to Cambodia though, that option is about as low as anyone can go in the humanity stakes, giving people the option of a corrupt and violent country versus a corrupt and bankrupt rock in the middle of the ocean.
> 
> Yeah, great choice, but entirely voluntary of course. Voluntary my backside.




Rumpy, I think you may still have the Pol POT regime in mind when you speak about corruption, violence bankrupt rock......I understand the Cambodians have come a long way since Pol Pot.......But one cannot get away from the fact that most 3 rd world countries experience a certain amount of corruption.

At least they a signatory to the UNHCR where Malaysia were not......I also believe the Cambodian Government will do well out of the aid given by Australia as inducement to resettle those who wish to go to Cambodia of their all volition.

The Labor proposal with Malaysia to swap 800 for 4000 without choice WAS a dumb deal IMHO.


----------



## bunyip (28 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> Feel free to post your support for this government and their policies but the personal attacks are as unwelcome as they are a fools basis for discussion as well as being against the rules set by the forum.
> 
> The rules of the forum are set by Joe not yours or bunyips narrow opinions.




Nobody on this forum expresses opinions as narrow as yours. You make absolutely no effort to make fair and balanced comment....your sole agenda is to shoot the Abbot government down without giving them any credit whatsoever for their worthwhile achievements. 
And incidentally, in just 12 months in office the Abbot government has had far more worthwhile achievements than your Labor mob managed in six years of government. 
It’s long overdue that someone pointed out the hypocrisy and lack of credibility in your views. Whether you see it as a personal attack is up to you.


----------



## explod (28 September 2014)

No one asked to be born. We are supposed to be equal and the world belongs to everybody so we should share.  If we did so I feel aggression would soon dissapate.

The tack of the Libs and the ALP in this country today is an absolute disgrace.


----------



## bunyip (28 September 2014)

explod said:


> No one asked to be born. We are supposed to be equal and the world belongs to everybody so we should share.




And if we were to share our country with everyone who wants to come here, do you have any suggestions on how we could fund the enormous cost involved, given that most of them would be on welfare from day one, and would very likely stay on welfare for many years?
Has it occurred to you that our economy would simply buckle under the strain of supporting all these people?


explod said:


> If we did so I feel aggression would soon dissapate.



Really? I find that very hard to believe, given the race related riots in Sydney a few years back, the Muslim against Muslim violence in Sydney more recently, the Muslims parading down the street with signs saying ‘SHARIA LAW’, and ‘BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM’, the terrorists now rotting in jail who planned on mass murder at our military bases, the young Muslim stabbing two police officers before being shot dead last week. And many more incidents besides. 
From my observation, the more middle eastern people we share our country with, the more resentment and aggression we’re subjected to.


----------



## drsmith (28 September 2014)

explod said:


> No one asked to be born. We are supposed to be equal and the world belongs to everybody so we should share.  If we did so I feel aggression would soon dissapate.
> 
> The tack of the Libs and the ALP in this country today is an absolute disgrace.



You could practice this lofty ideal and take someone under your wing who has very different social and religious values to our society in general.

Someone like ARASH SEDIGH for example,



> ARASH SEDIGH (on asylum seeker boat): They put us in this f**king orange boat and sent us back to Indonesia. And the Navy was escorting that ship until today. ... F**k Australia. ... I said to them, "You are criminals". If later on you said why they do that to America on September 11, you should know the cause of it is your very deeds. Remember 9-11 for United States. All the world should know why. Australian Government, Tony Abbott, Scott Morrison, Immigration - all of them are the smugglers.
> 
> MAN (on asylum seeker boat): F**k Australia!




I don't think you'll have to worry about the child senator or the Green movement in general personally jumping the queue for a character of that nature even though it's what they preach our society in general should do.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s3965617.htm

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## explod (28 September 2014)

Welfare cannot be sustained.  There have been farms, (several in South Australia) in almost desert country now very productive food producers by methods of permaculture.  I do in my own yard.

We have huge tracts of land across this country that has been destroyed and eaten out by grazing.  I fertalise my entire garden with a small worm farm that in turn produces from my vegitable scraps..

This may seem off the point and off topic but we could do such things to our north which would not only become very profitable for our economy but build a natural human barrier of sheer numbers.  If we do not equalise then all the deterrants will not stop the floods of people.

I often ask you for ideas, but you libs and ALP seem bereft, we have many others too, its about time we began to build some direction and try approaches outside the square for some possible win win.


----------



## explod (28 September 2014)

And i would be more than happy to take a difficult one under my wing. Have done it in the past but Geoff Kennett did not like us rehabilitating crooks.


----------



## drsmith (28 September 2014)

explod said:


> And i would be more than happy to take a difficult one under my wing. Have done it in the past but Geoff Kennett did not like us rehabilitating crooks.



Arash Sedigh and those who share similar views don't see the flow of rehabilitation in the same direction you do.


----------



## IFocus (29 September 2014)

bunyip said:


> Nobody on this forum expresses opinions as narrow as yours. You make absolutely no effort to make fair and balanced comment....your sole agenda is to shoot the Abbot government down without giving them any credit whatsoever for their worthwhile achievements.
> And incidentally, in just 12 months in office the Abbot government has had far more worthwhile achievements than your Labor mob managed in six years of government.
> It’s long overdue that someone pointed out the hypocrisy and lack of credibility in your views. Whether you see it as a personal attack is up to you.




Everyone here knows I think Abbott is a lying egotistical moronic tosser with a long history of form which he has and is. 

That's my opinion and I wont be bullied by you or anyone else here who still think they are in a school yard into changing it to what every you personally think. 

If you have a contrary argument put the case, note those that cannot personalise the argument or revert to personal attacks.


----------



## explod (29 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> Arash Sedigh and those who share similar views don't see the flow of rehabilitation in the same direction you do.





Yes, well instead of all of us presenting as aggressive we should be exploring why? and methods of peaceful solutions.

NOT ONES THAT ARE GOOD FOR THE MANUFACTURERS AND SUPPLIERS OF WEAPONS.

Pollies are pawns.


----------



## noco (29 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> Everyone here knows I think Abbott is a lying egotistical moronic tosser with a long history of form which he has and is.
> 
> That's my opinion and I wont be bullied by you or anyone else here who still think they are in a school yard into changing it to what every you personally think.
> 
> If you have a contrary argument put the case, note those that cannot personalise the argument or revert to personal attacks.




IF I think you are showing some hypocrisy here when you are making such personal attack on our leader.

I think the description you gave Abbott is perhaps more fitting to Julia Gillrad and Rudd or do you have a short memory.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> Yes, well instead of all of us presenting as aggressive we should be exploring why? and methods of peaceful solutions.



I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## explod (29 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> I wish you the best of luck.




As a young professional I was very much influenced by the extreme patience and tolerance of the Victoria Police in the early 70s, led then by Mick Miller the Chief then.  Also Politicians such as Dr Jim Cains and later Bob Brown. All very tolerant and peaceful people.

In the Vietnam Demonstrations we were trained to have constraint, contain and certainly aggression by our members was not tolerated.  And it's effect was few arrests or injuries and we did not carry firearms at all.

Having later worked in police research think tanks for some years I do know that the sociological approach of Governments are designed to divide and I do know how and that the situations could be reversed back to a peaceful society.

In those days there were entrenched Aussies who dispised and did not like the Greek and Italian immigrants, but look at how they have enriched our society.  The difference was that you had great Government Statespeople, like Menzies, Whitlam, Faser and down the line.  It took a bad turn when Thatcherism was introduced and it all became a game of money first, which was of course the purpose of deregulation.

And in the paper today we read that the top companies in this country only pay up to 10 percent tax.  So it is the wage earners at the bottom carrying the can.  I'd bet the refugees would work their buts off if given the chance.


----------



## bunyip (29 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> Everyone here knows I think Abbott is a lying egotistical moronic tosser with a long history of form which he has and is.
> 
> That's my opinion and I wont be bullied by you or anyone else here who still think they are in a school yard into changing it to what every you personally think.
> 
> If you have a contrary argument put the case, note those that cannot personalise the argument or revert to personal attacks.




I’m not trying to bully you into changing your views - you can hold whatever views you wish and frankly I don’t give a toss.
But when your views are so completely narrow that you have nothing but criticism for someone who in just 12 months in office has already fixed up some of the problems created by the incompetent morons that you voted into power, then I and others are going to tell you, quite rightly, that you’re narrow-minded and you lack credibility. 
Neither Abbot nor any other politician is perfect and none of them are above criticism. But you’re a blind fool if you can’t see that he’s had some successes among what your think are his failures.
And if you’re not a blind fool, then start being honest enough to at least acknowledge that some some of the policies he's implemented are good for Australia, and were completely necessary to correct serious mistakes made by Labor.


----------



## explod (29 September 2014)

Abbott a success, you have got to be joking.

All he has managed to do is divide society with hate and war mongerring.

He has also had our debt limit increased to half a trillion.  The talk of the debt of the previous government is an infinitesimal amount compared to the majority of countries overseas. because this is just dumb smokescreen stuff.

And it was previously established practice to borrow and invest for the future.  And today interest rates are at record lows.

We are a bit off topic now from the Asylum Immigrants.  Wonder where Abbot came from, naar they old not want him back.


----------



## bunyip (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> Abbott a success, you have got to be joking.
> 
> All he has managed to do is divide society with hate and war mongerring.
> 
> ...



Stopping the illegal boats coming was one of his successes – the Greens-backed Labor government cost us 12 billion dollars with that little exercise in stupidity, a figure than has no doubt blown out much further by now due to the ongoing cost of keeping those people in detention while they’re processed. 
Getting rid of the carbon tax was another sensible move by Abbot – it was an unnecessary burden on industry that was costing jobs while having negligible effect on greenhouse gas emissions.

Anyway, we’re well and truly off topic now, as you’ve pointed out. So how about we leave it there and if you want to go on criticizing Abbot, then I’m sure there must be another thread better suited to the topic.


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> Abbott a success, you have got to be joking.
> 
> All he has managed to do is divide society with hate and war mongerring..




Didn't the Labor/Green coalition support and fund the last war, during their term of office?




explod said:


> He has also had our debt limit increased to half a trillion.  The talk of the debt of the previous government is an infinitesimal amount compared to the majority of countries overseas. because this is just dumb smokescreen stuff...




Wasn't the debt limit increased, as Labor/Greens had racked up the spending to the old limit?
Or are you trying to say, the debt was racked up in the six months prior to the limit being raised?




explod said:


> And it was previously established practice to borrow and invest for the future.  And today interest rates are at record lows.
> ..




It would have been nice if Labor/Greens had employed that ideology whilst in office. Rather than $300billion in non productive debt, that they splashed out.

Like you said best get back on thread "How to pay for 50,000 asylum seekers".


----------



## explod (29 September 2014)

Not at all Bunyip, the policy of shutting out people in such desperate need is inhumane.

Abbott is wrong.

The carbon tax was not unprofitable at all.  Only for big polluters of course, in industries very mechanised and on the whole not huge employers at all.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> As a young professional I was very much influenced by the extreme patience and tolerance of the Victoria Police in the early 70s, led then by Mick Miller the Chief then.  Also Politicians such as Dr Jim Cains and later Bob Brown. All very tolerant and peaceful people.
> 
> In the Vietnam Demonstrations we were trained to have constraint, contain and certainly aggression by our members was not tolerated.  And it's effect was few arrests or injuries and we did not carry firearms at all.
> 
> Having later worked in police research think tanks for some years I do know that the sociological approach of Governments are designed to divide and I do know how and that the situations could be reversed back to a peaceful society.



We currently live in a peaceful society in Australia, at least relative to those who threaten that peace.

You (and the Greens for that matter) could always go the IS controlled areas of the middle east and try to reverse that group back into a peaceful society.

On second thought, that's not a good idea. You'll finish up on a Youtube video but not for the reason your hoping.


----------



## explod (29 September 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Didn't the Labor/Green coalition support and fund the last war, during their term of office?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The debt was normal spend on such things as increasing education to lower income areas, since quashed and the normal processes of Government.

If done right we could set the asylum seekers up into a more focused immigration scheme and put them on lands making them produce and support themselves.  There are not millions of them FGS.

Of course joining the wars of the middle east is in principle increasing the asylum seeker problem so in turn we should help those effected by our engagement.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> If done right we could set the asylum seekers up into a more focused immigration scheme and put them on lands making them produce and support themselves.



Done right is through government programs. That's the status this government has restored by stopping the boats. 

It's not by the illegal people smuggling that Labor and the Greens encouraged while in office.


----------



## bunyip (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> Not at all Bunyip, the policy of shutting out people in such desperate need is inhumane.
> 
> Abbott is wrong.




People in desperate need are right here in our own country. If you’re so humane then you could always take a few dozen of them into your own home and look after them at your expense and risk.

We’re now paying hundreds of millions of dollars in interest on the debt that Rudd and Gillard, supported by the Greens, racked up by allowing the illegal boat people to come flooding in.  Given the way the inflow was rapidly increasing, we would have been completely swamped by illegals by now if Abbot hadn't taken decisive action to put a stop to it. Our economy would have buckled under the strain, and the resulting social problems would have been immense.

Despite what you and the Greens and the UNHCR seem to think, our responsibility is first and foremost to our own country and its citizens, not to everyone around the world who for whatever reason has problems they want to escape.
And if we do want to help foreigners by bringing them into our country, then there are far better choices than selecting them from incompatible religions and cultures that dislike us and want to change our country and laws to suit themselves, and are a burden on our economy from day one because they lack the language and job skills to secure gainful employment.


----------



## noco (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> The debt was normal spend on such things as increasing education to lower income areas, since quashed and the normal processes of Government.
> 
> If done right we could set the asylum seekers up into a more focused immigration scheme and put them on lands making them produce and support themselves.  There are not millions of them FGS.
> 
> Of course joining the wars of the middle east is in principle increasing the asylum seeker problem so in turn we should help those effected by our engagement.




That Fabian Society girl called Julia Gillard opened the flood gates to the Muslims to divide the community, create dissension and she was very successful in what we are suffering today.


----------



## explod (29 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> Arash Sedigh and those who share similar views don't see the flow of rehabilitation in the same direction you do.





Yes, well instead of all of us presenting as aggressive we should be exploring why? and methods of peaceful solutions.

NOT ONES THAT ARE GOOD FOR THE MANUFACTURERS AND SUPPLIERS OF WEAPONS.

Pollies are pawns.


----------



## explod (29 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> Done right is through government programs. That's the status this government has restored by stopping the boats.
> 
> It's not by the illegal people smuggling that Labor and the Greens encouraged while in office.




Not quite true. Labour were attempting to deter by holding as many as possible offshore.

There is a considerable amount of bias on this thread from the right and from the ire at times I do not think you are intoto entirely convinced.


----------



## Ganyeka (29 September 2014)

For starters they are not "illegals". They in fact have a well recognized legal right to seek asylum. They are not "refugees" until their claim for asylum has been assessed. Calling them "illegals" criminalises them and their conduct, marginalises them as a group and is emotive BS. 

And here's something I've never been able to understand, and I was a registered migration agent for 15 years and a lawyer for longer - keeping people in detention is bloody expensive. Doing it offshore doesn't change that. Applying resources to actually, heaven forbid, ASSESSING THEIR CLAIMS would mean that we can keep them in this prohibitively expensive and largely inhumane detention system for a much shorter period of time and save a significant amount of money. But where's the deterrent value of acting with fiscal responsibility and efficiency right? Better the word gets out that we're gonna lock you up for years and treat you like animals if you have the temerity to flee oppression and likely death. And how is getting expedited assessment and sent home fast a lesser deterrent anyway to people who are scared $hitless of exactly that? Its why they're risking their lives to flee in the first place. 

And we keep them offshore so they are outside the "migration zone". If they get inside the migration zone for assessment of their asylum claims and are refused, they have all sorts of appeal rights and who the hell can be bothered offering due process and natural justice to some "illegal" economic migrant who really just wants to drive a beat up Camry and live in Western Sydney right? So we intercept them and send them to Christmas Island I think it was under Howard, which was legislatively excised from the Migration Zone whilst still techically being part of Australia - and wherever the latest BS idea dictates now, Cambodia or something. That way when we screw up your claim for asylum and decide to send to you home, where a substantial number of rejected asylum seekers are subsequently killed, and when it turns out you really weren't joking about the whole being in danger thing, you can't appeal the decision of the overworked and one-eyed Immigration Officer operating under things called Procedural Advice Manuals that tell them how to ignore settled law on all sorts of things and interpret the law the way the Minister for Immigration says -  and ask someone qualified, oh you know, like a JUDGE, to review the decision. 

The whole thing is broken and it relies on divisive and incorrect language to whip people into a rage over something that is really a storm in a teacup. There isn't some flood, some slavering hoard of Muslim fundamentalists about to over run our way of life unless we act like complete arseholes to the most underpriveleged and at risk people on the planet. 

What we need to do is train and hire a decent number of reasonably smart people and form a specialised Asylum Unit within the department of immigration, resource them appropriately and actually process a claim in a couple of months instead of a couple of years and longer. Fine, do it outside The Migration Zone so the Courts aren't over run with appeals. But if people are in detention, at least have the decency and common sense to get the claims dealt with FAST and get them either in or out so it doesn't cost us Billions and doesn't leave vulnerable people and innocent children in substandard detention facilities to rot for years on end. Its f@#king embarrassing on so many levels.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2014)

Ganyeka said:


> What we need to do is train and hire a decent number of reasonably smart people and form a specialised Asylum Unit within the department of immigration, resource them appropriately and actually process a claim in a couple of months instead of a couple of years and longer. Fine, do it outside The Migration Zone so the Courts aren't over run with appeals. But if people are in detention, at least have the decency and common sense to get the claims dealt with FAST and get them either in or out so it doesn't cost us Billions and doesn't leave vulnerable people and innocent children in substandard detention facilities to rot for years on end. Its f@#king embarrassing on so many levels.



We have reasonably smart people running immigration.

They are Scott Morrison and Angus Campbell.

They have stopped the boats and that's the most effective way of satisfying the dual objectives of managing our border security and emptying the detention centres.


----------



## drsmith (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> Not quite true. Labour were attempting to deter by holding as many as possible offshore.
> 
> There is a considerable amount of bias on this thread from the right and from the ire at times I do not think you are intoto entirely convinced.



Labor were only dragged to offshore processing as a consequence of the number of boat arrivals becoming so politically unpalatable that they had to be seen to be doing something.

Let's not forget it was Labor's unwinding of the Howard government's policies that reignited the problem in the first place. 

You don't like the fact this government has stopped the boats.


----------



## noco (29 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> Labor were only dragged to offshore processing as a consequence of the number of boat arrivals becoming so politically unpalatable that they had to be seen to be doing something.
> 
> Let's not forget it was Labor's unwinding of the Howard government's policies that reignited the problem in the first place.
> 
> You don't like the fact this government has stopped the boats.





Plus the fact that the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition had all the detention centers full to over flowing and had no where to hold illegals.

The Green /Labor turmoil resulted in a botched agreement with PNG.....TGLFU.


----------



## IFocus (29 September 2014)

bunyip said:


> I’m not trying to bully you into changing your views - you can hold whatever views you wish and frankly I don’t give a toss.
> But when your views are so completely narrow that you have nothing but criticism for someone who in just 12 months in office has already fixed up some of the problems created by the incompetent morons that you voted into power, then I and others are going to tell you, quite rightly, that you’re narrow-minded and you lack credibility.
> Neither Abbot nor any other politician is perfect and none of them are above criticism. But you’re a blind fool if you can’t see that he’s had some successes among what your think are his failures.
> And if you’re not a blind fool, then start being honest enough to at least acknowledge that some some of the policies he's implemented are good for Australia, and were completely necessary to correct serious mistakes made by Labor.





Still waiting



> If you have a contrary argument put the case, note those that cannot personalise the argument or revert to personal attacks.


----------



## Julia (29 September 2014)

explod said:


> Not at all Bunyip, the policy of shutting out people in such desperate need is inhumane.



You might like to comment on the reality that all the people Labor's Open Borders policy allowed to flood in effectively brought to a stop our Humanitarian Resettlement Program, given authorities were completely overcome by the need to process boat arrivals.

Do you really think it's right that people who have often trudged hundreds of miles on foot, eventually making it to one of the many refugee camps that exist in squalor throughout the world, being then shown to definitely be genuine refugees, should spend in some cases more than ten years in such camps whilst people wealthy enough to pay many thousands of dollars to people smugglers should step off their boats in designer clothes carrying expensive electronic equipment are processed before them?



explod said:


> Yes, well instead of all of us presenting as aggressive we should be exploring why? and methods of peaceful solutions.
> 
> NOT ONES THAT ARE GOOD FOR THE MANUFACTURERS AND SUPPLIERS OF WEAPONS.
> 
> Pollies are pawns.



Right.  A few days ago Medicowallet suggested we could send the Greens over to Iraq and Syria to negotiate a solution.  
Since you believe so strongly that 'a peaceful solution' is achievable, perhaps we could send you as "Australian Ambassador to ISIS".
You could negotiate your peaceful settlement with them to the advantage of the whole world.

Are you seriously suggesting this fanatical murderous bunch are up for negotiation?  How did that go for the Alawite Muslims and Christians in northern Iraq?   Not too well, I believe.


----------



## bunyip (30 September 2014)

Ganyeka said:


> For starters they are not "illegals". They in fact have a well recognized legal right to seek asylum. They are not "refugees" until their claim for asylum has been assessed. Calling them "illegals" criminalises them and their conduct, marginalises them as a group and is emotive BS.




None of us is entitled to pay a criminal to perform an illegal act on our behalf. If we do, we’re breaking the law and are judged to have conducted an illegal act along with the criminal.
People who come here uninvited by boat have paid criminals called people smugglers to bring them. In so doing they have acted illegally, they are therefore ‘illegals’ by any reasonable definition. 



Ganyeka said:


> The whole thing is broken and it relies on divisive and incorrect language to whip people into a rage over something that is really a storm in a teacup. There isn't some flood, some slavering hoard of Muslim fundamentalists about to over run our way of life unless we act like complete arseholes to the most underpriveleged and at risk people on the planet.



A 'storm in a teacup' is it? 
You must be living on another planet if you can’t see the immense problems that countries around the world have landed themselves with by allowing large numbers of Islamic immigrants to come in.
Take your head out of the sand and you just might realize that Islamists will cause exactly the same problems in Australia, and in fact are already starting to do so. It’s utter stupidity to speed up the onset of these problems by increasing our intake of people from Islamic countries. Especially when there are hundreds of thousands of people from non-Muslim countries who have applied through the legal channels to come here, and have the language and work skills to fit in right away and start making a positive contribution to our country, yet they’re being bypassed in favor of people who are a burden on us from the outset, who want to change our laws and reject our values and our way of life.
And just in case you’re tempted to tell me that most Islamic people are peaceful and they’re not like that.......I put it to you that most Germans were peaceful too, yet Germany was torn apart by a small number of extremists called Nazis. Watch the video on this link – don’t just ignore it, _*watch it *_– it just might open your eyes to what we’re letting ourselves in for by laying out the welcome mat to Islamists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI74lOgfxk4

You tell us ‘_there isn't some flood, some slavering hoard of Muslim fundamentalists about to over run our way of life’._ 
My answer is that it doesn’t take a slavering horde of Muslims to ruin a country – all it takes is a handful of extremists to ride roughshod over the peaceful majority.
There are over half a million Muslims in Australia – if only 0.02% of them are radicals or become radicals, that’s 100 people with extremist views who pose a serious risk to our lifestyle and the security of our country.
They’re the ones brandishing signs saying ‘_*Death to those who insult Islam*_’, and ‘_*Behead those who insult the prophet’, *_and _*‘Sharia law is the only law’*_, as they protest and incite violence and hatred over some film that was made overseas by someone with no connection to Australia.
They’re the ones running an Islamic bookshop that's a front for a recruitment center for fighters to leave our country and go over to Syria to fight on the side of the extremists, then return to Australia with their new-found skills and radical ideology.
They’re the ones who are rotting in jail for planning mass murder at our military bases.
They’re the ones planning public beheadings of innocent people right here in Australia.
They’re the ones who are making plans that we don’t yet know about, plans that will sooner or later be carried out despite the best efforts of our police and security forces to sniff them out before they strike.
Yet you tell us this is all  just ‘a storm in a teacup’!!??
And it doesn’t even take radicals to force changes that are negative for our country. A meatworks in my area that exports to a couple of Islamic countries has been forced to employ a small number of Muslim slaughtermen to ensure the cattle are killed according to Islamic custom. This handful of Muslim workers have demanded that the meatworks build a new lunch room and toilet block for Muslims only. The meatworks has complied with that request, meaning that the non-Muslim workers are discriminated against by being banned from using the Muslim-only facilities. You might say ‘_So what – it’s only a small change that doesn’t really have much of an effect on anyone’. _
Maybe so, but it’s an example of how, little by little, even peaceful Muslims are forcing change on our country. Why should that be? If you were desperate to leave Australia and you found another country that was willing to take you in, would you expect that country to make changes just for you? Would you try to change that country so that it was more to your liking? Or would you show your appreciation to your new country by having the decency to do everything you possibly could to fit in with the people, their laws and customs?
Again, I urge you to watch this short video if you haven’t already done so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI74lOgfxk4

And while you're at it, here's another link that might help you to extract your head from the sand.
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/signa...-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html

A 'storm in a teacup'?   I don't think so!


----------



## bunyip (30 September 2014)

IFocus said:


> Everyone here knows I think Abbott is a lying egotistical moronic tosser with a long history of form which he has and is.
> 
> If you have a contrary argument put the case.






IFocus said:


> Still waiting




I’ve already given you a contrary argument to your constant criticism of Abbot by pointing out that, to his credit, he’s fixed up some of the problems created by Rudd and Gillard, neither of whom you criticized despite their six years of grossly incompetent government.


----------



## Tisme (30 September 2014)

Julia said:


> .
> 
> Do you really think it's right that people who have often trudged hundreds of miles on foot, eventually making it to one of the many refugee camps that exist in squalor throughout the world, being then shown to definitely be genuine refugees, should spend in some cases more than ten years in such camps whilst people wealthy enough to pay many thousands of dollars to people smugglers should step off their boats in designer clothes carrying expensive electronic equipment are processed before them?




We had many years to figure out those £10 POMs and Italians weren't worth the investment ...didn't we.... they weren't worth it were they...were they?

Besides how can the uncultured fit into a multi cultural society; it's just not natural.


----------



## drsmith (30 September 2014)

> Ten Pound Poms (also called Ten Pound Tourists) is a colloquial term used in Australia to describe British subjects who migrated to Australia after the Second World War under an *assisted passage scheme established and operated by the Government of Australia.*




My bolds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Pound_Poms


----------



## noco (30 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> We had many years to figure out those £10 POMs and Italians weren't worth the investment ...didn't we.... they weren't worth it were they...were they?
> 
> Besides how can the uncultured fit into a multi cultural society; it's just not natural.




I am afraid what you believe happened after WW11, you have been grossly misinformed and obviously were not even born..

Immigrants from England, Italy and Germany were highly skilled tradesmen and they mixed into our community extremely well....As an apprentice plumber from 1946, the plumbing company I was employed by engaged some 20 or 30 plumbers from those countries and they were excellent workers and mixed in very well.

Many were engaged on the Snowy Mountain scheme and we DID receive good value for our investment.

That is more than I can say for the stupidity of the Green/Labor socialist left wing government for allowing 50,000 Muslim to flood into Australia uninvited......They are now a burden on the tax payer and must stop to pray 5 times a day..

So tell me who would want to employe these people when they would be disrupting work 5 times a day for 10 minutes at a time?...would you employe them if you were in business?


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> We had many years to figure out those £10 POMs and Italians weren't worth the investment ...didn't we.... they weren't worth it were they...were they?
> 
> Besides how can the uncultured fit into a multi cultural society; it's just not natural.




I guess the real difference is, they came here for an opportunity, not a welfare system.
The conditions that prevailed in the early 1960's, is far removed from what is on offer today.

If the accomodation and conditions were the same, we wouldn't have any asylum seekers coming here.lol
Let's not forget the inhumane accomodation at Curtin detention centre, is the very same accomodation our troops were expected to use.
State housing commission homes, in the North West of W.A that are deemed unsuitable for asylum seekers, were rented out to Australians. It's a shame no one gave a $hit about that.


----------



## Tisme (1 October 2014)

noco said:


> I am afraid what you believe happened after WW11, you have been grossly misinformed and obviously were not even born..




Um you do know what irony is yes? 

I just had a feel and yes I'm pretty sure I have been born.

Let me explain a little more: my home state is one of those places which had large numbers of English, Italians, etc after the WW2. The Italians were so happy to have a safe haven and fresh start they got on with it. The English jumped in too, mainly into govt utilities.

The "poms" were given a really hard time for  being Poms, with "go home of you don't like it" and a vicious tag of "whinging Poms". Later on the young 1st gens setup gangs of skinheads and terrorised the streets, using sheer numbers to beat up individuals.

Insofar as the history of migration we should remember the Yugolsavs who were brought in at the turn of the century to build our factories, we should remember the expulsion of the Chinese nationals, the slave trade of Kanakas who were also sent packing once machines took over in the cane fields, the Irish dissidents who wanted to wreck our society to spite the English. 

And yes I know all to well about the migration, I was trained by those war damaged Dutch, Germans, English, Scots, Russian, French, Italian, Arab, etc blokes who worked together in a  true multicultural work environment by the thousands and who would likely slit each other's throats given half a chance, but they didn't because they wanted prosperity, free of old world hate for their kids and wife.


----------



## Tisme (1 October 2014)

sptrawler said:


> I guess the real difference is, they came here for an opportunity, not a welfare system.
> The conditions that prevailed in the early 1960's, is far removed from what is on offer today.
> 
> If the accomodation and conditions were the same, we wouldn't have any asylum seekers coming here.lol
> ...




Yes the Nissan huts out Toodyay road, the Pearce air force huts, as you say the  Norwest where people still shack up in containers and old caravans. The hostels in Elizabeth South Oz, Laverton in Vic, rickety workers cottages in Qld,  the whole fricken place was a continent of hard times until Whitlam decided it was time for a change and turn away from the sheep's back, with no small thanks to Charles Court for opening up the Pilbra to mining, John Tonkin for galvanising WA entrepreneurs into taking risk and nation building.... there were so many lites back then who wanted to progress us into a modern nation instead of an English outpost.


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## SirRumpole (1 October 2014)

Tisme said:
			
		

> The "poms" were given a really hard time for being Poms, with "go home of you don't like it" and a vicious tag of "whinging Poms".




Yes, some of them were given a hard time, but I have friends who were 10 pound poms who definitely did not whinge, but recognised that some of their previous countrymen did and joined the chorus of "go home" to the whingers.


----------



## noco (1 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> Um you do know what irony is yes?
> 
> I just had a feel and yes I'm pretty sure I have been born.
> 
> ...




What a lot of rubbish...

Where did you get all that from?

Did you make it up?

I hope you can give me a link to where you stated all you said.

Yes...Poms were always called whinging Poms and still are today...that is nothing new......but to talk about slitting each others throats is just not true.

We were talking about the immigrants after WW11  OK.


----------



## drsmith (1 October 2014)

OSB operational update for September,



> The reporting period is from 1 September 2014 to 30 September 2014.
> 
> During this reporting period there were no illegal maritime arrivals transferred to Australian Immigration authorities.
> 
> ...




In short, another month with no boats. 

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...nt-agency-task-force-monthly-update-september

And Tisme,

How much of the post WW2 immigration from Europe to Australia was through the activities of illegal maritime people smuggling as we have seen under the former Labor governments of Rudd and Gillard ?


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## sptrawler (1 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, some of them were given a hard time, but I have friends who were 10 pound poms who definitely did not whinge, but recognised that some of their previous countrymen did and joined the chorus of "go home" to the whingers.




Yes and now dare we say" whinging Australians".lol


----------



## noco (1 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> OSB operational update for September,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They did come by boat....legally that is.......they had no need to throw their passports overboard though.


----------



## noco (1 October 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Yes and now dare we say" whinging Australians".lol




Whinging Australian left wings and bums who believe their country owes them a living.


----------



## sptrawler (1 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> Yes the Nissan huts out Toodyay road, the Pearce air force huts, as you say the  Norwest where people still shack up in containers and old caravans. The hostels in Elizabeth South Oz, Laverton in Vic, rickety workers cottages in Qld,  the whole fricken place was a continent of hard times until Whitlam decided it was time for a change and turn away from the sheep's back, with no small thanks to Charles Court for opening up the Pilbra to mining, John Tonkin for galvanising WA entrepreneurs into taking risk and nation building.... there were so many lites back then who wanted to progress us into a modern nation instead of an English outpost.




You obviously didn't live in Exmouth in the early 80's, when the only housing was state housing, stump mounted asbestos and tin with no insulation or airconditioning.
Charlie Court told the U.S not to bother putting in housing for the Aussies, he would look after it.

Well everyone was getting pi$$ed off with paying $60/wk back then, to live in a 'hot box' that you couldn't walk on the floor in bare feet.
So a petition was mounted to improve the housing, the result was a major upgrade, they removed the gutters.lol
We never got a mention on lateline, we never had government funded lawyers fighting for our rights, paying rent on third world housing.
Why, because we felt it was our choice to be there and if we didn't like it we should leave.
Now there seems to be a new option, if you come to a place and don't like it, get the ABC, Fairfax and taxpayer funded lawyers to take up your cause and get the taxpayer to fund it all.


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## bunyip (3 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> OSB operational update for September,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I hope the galah takes note – I distinctly recall his confident prediction that Abbot wouldn’t be able to stop the boats!


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## IFocus (4 October 2014)

bunyip said:


> I hope the galah takes note – I distinctly recall his confident prediction that Abbot wouldn’t be able to stop the boats!




I was absolutely wrong about stopping the boats and also wrong thinking that a long honoured tradition of federal Australian governments would rule this country working with in the law.



Scott Morrison. Maiden speech to Parliament 14/2/2008:

"From my faith I derive the values of loving-kindness, justice and righteousness, to act with compassion and kindness, acknowledging our common humanity and to consider the welfare of others; to fight for a fair go for everyone to fulfil their human potential and to remove whatever unjust obstacles stand in their way, including diminishing their personal responsibility for their own wellbeing; and to do what is right, to respect the rule of law, the sanctity of human life and the moral integrity of marriage and the family. We must recognise an unchanging and absolute standard of what is good and what is evil."


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## SirRumpole (4 October 2014)

IFocus said:


> I was absolutely wrong about stopping the boats and also wrong thinking that a long honoured tradition of federal Australian governments would rule this country working with in the law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, funny how some of the most committed Christians are the biggest hypocrites.


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## noco (4 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah, funny how some of the most committed Christians are the biggest hypocrites.




So for what reason have you branded Scott Morrison a hypocrite?


----------



## drsmith (4 October 2014)

I note critics of this governments successful border protection policies are reduced to criticising the immigration minister for his religion.

That's pretty pathetic, even by their standards.

If we want to measure hypocrisy and the law, the big prize goes to the parties who in government encouraged immigration by illegal people smuggling not only at the great expense of this nation but also at the expense of the more than 1,000 men, women and children who drowned at sea as a consequence. 

If we want to blame religion for the outcomes we have seen, it's the religion of high handedness practiced by Labor and the Greens that by far bare the prime responsibility.


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## SirRumpole (4 October 2014)

noco said:


> So for what reason have you branded Scott Morrison a hypocrite?




Scott Morrison is a committed Christian

the Bible says "suffer the little children to come unto me"

Scott Morrison sends them to Nauru and makes them suffer.


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## noco (4 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Scott Morrison is a committed Christian
> 
> the Bible says "suffer the little children to come unto me"
> 
> Scott Morrison sends them to Nauru and makes them suffer.




NO NO NO Rumpy, the Green/Labor left wing socialist are the ones who sent kids to Nauru even the last lot that came from India would have been back in India where they came from had the Greens  not been so stupid to take out a court order preventing the process.

I believe if you do some homework you will find the youth population on Nauru has been reduced by some 40%.

The Green/Labor coalition were determined to blot the copy book of OSB....they just could not bare success by the Liberal government....They did everything possible to throw a spanner in the works.


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## bunyip (6 October 2014)

IFocus said:


> I was absolutely wrong about stopping the boats



Decent of you to admit it. Now how about publicly praising Abbot for his success in this area? I mean, anyone can criticize all the time, but a person with a balanced viewpoint also gives credit where credit is due.
Hell, as much as I disliked and criticized Gillard for her arrogance and stupidity and gross incompetence, I nevertheless gave her my tick of approval on the rare occasion I thought she got something right.


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## SirRumpole (6 October 2014)

> as much as I disliked and criticized Gillard for her arrogance and stupidity and gross incompetence, I nevertheless gave her my tick of approval on the rare occasion I thought she got something right.




What in particular ?


----------



## bunyip (7 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> What in particular ?




Her proposal to increase tobacco taxes was something I spoke in favor of.


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## bunyip (9 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> OSB operational update for September,
> 
> 
> 
> ...






bunyip said:


> I hope the galah takes note – I distinctly recall his confident prediction that Abbot wouldn’t be able to stop the boats!






IFocus said:


> I was absolutely wrong about stopping the boats






bunyip said:


> Decent of you to admit it. Now how about publicly praising Abbot for his success in this area? I mean, anyone can criticize all the time, but a person with a balanced viewpoint also gives credit where credit is due.



Still waiting.


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## IFocus (10 October 2014)

> Decent of you to admit it. Now how about publicly praising Abbot for his success in this area? I mean, anyone can criticize all the time, but a person with a balanced viewpoint also gives credit where credit is due.




Again you fail to debate the threat tile " Asylum immigrants - Green Light" again you are determine to personalise the issue and again you play school yard bully determine as a result I should agree with your opinion.

Again I think Abbott is a drop kick and his cabinet 2nd rate, hell will freeze over before that truth under the sun will change.


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## drsmith (11 October 2014)

In a puff piece on Bill shorten, Fairfax's chief political correspondent Mark Kenny has od'd on the Labor potion,



> And in an interview with Fairfax Media before his first anniversary as Labor leader, Mr Shorten's guarded praise of the Coalition's suite of border protection policies has raised the prospect of a future Labor government adopting the same measures, including turning back boats on the ocean and temporary protection visas.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...as-he-goes-to-electorate-20141010-1148xe.html


.


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## bunyip (13 October 2014)

IFocus said:


> Again you fail to debate the threat tile " Asylum immigrants - Green Light" again you are determine to personalise the issue and again you play school yard bully determine as a result I should agree with your opinion.



Not at all. I’m saying that your Labor heroes made a huge mistake in giving asylum seekers the green light to come to our country en masse through the help of criminals called people smugglers.
The Abbot government has very effectively put a stop to this practice. You admit you were wrong in thinking that they wouldn’t be able to do so.
Abbot’s actions were necessary and were very much to the benefit of our country, and he should be commended for his achievement. I’m inviting you, or challenging you if you prefer, to be fair-minded enough to give him credit where credit is due. It’s not a matter of trying to bully you into agreeing with my opinion. I don’t give a damn if you agree with me or not. I’m simply saying that if you do agree that Abbot should be commended for stopping the boats, then let’s see you being decent enough to do exactly that. 
And if you don’t think he deserves any credit for stopping the boats, if you think he should have just continued with Labor’s open door policy that saw us being swamped by an ever-increasing number of illegal immigrants at huge and unsustainable cost to our economy, then by all means state that opinion and I’ll be happy to tear your argument to shreds.


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## drsmith (28 October 2014)

Labor's Richard Marles turned back by his own party on turn backs,

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...s/labor_rejects_boats_policy_it_admits_works/


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## bunyip (28 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> Labor's Richard Marles turned back by his own party on turn backs,
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...s/labor_rejects_boats_policy_it_admits_works/




I noted that Richard Marles conceded that Labor _‘might’_ adopt a turn back the boats policy if they won government. But then he went on to say something about _‘if we got the approval of the Indonesians – that would be a game changer’._ (or words to that effect)
So it appears that Labor would adopt basically the same weak-kneed approach responsible for Rudd and Gillard’s failure to stop the boats – they wouldn’t adopt ‘turn back’ unless they got the green light from Indonesia. And Indonesia would never give their approval – they want the boat people gone from Indonesia rather than having them stay there as a constant drain on the Indonesian economy.
Labor under Rudd/Gillard never caught on to one simple fact and apparently they still don’t - * we don’t need Indonesia’s permission*. They never sought our permission in allowing the boats crewed by Indonesians to set sail for Australia, and there’s no need for us to seek their permission to send the boats back. 

The LNP has stopped the boats by adopting a ‘*too bad if you’d don’t like it’* attitude towards Indonesia. Unless Labor is willing to adopt the same hard line policy if they get back in to government, then the illegal boat people shemozzle of the Rudd/Gillard era will happen all over again under the next Labor government.


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## drsmith (28 October 2014)

Behind closed doors, I suspect Indonesia is happy that this government has been effective in stopping the boats. It after all reduces demand for their soil as a transit country. That we are now effectively managing our borders would also engender a level or respect even if their public commentary is otherwise.

Richard Marles was perhaps speaking his mind or perhaps not. If not, there doesn't seem much point in saying it only to be shot down from within.

All in all, it shows Labor overall still don't have a clue.


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## bunyip (29 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> Richard Marles was perhaps speaking his mind or perhaps not. If not, there doesn't seem much point in saying it only to be shot down from within.
> 
> All in all, it shows Labor overall still don't have a clue.




That just about sums it up – Labor still don’t have a clue!

Remember when Gillard assembled a ‘panel of experts’ to formulate a strategy for stopping the boats? I wonder how many thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars that cost!
Her ‘panel of experts’ didn’t include the two people who truly were experts in stopping the boats – John Howard and his Foreign Affairs minister Alexander Downer. No need for a ‘panel of experts’ if she’d consulted those two men – in just one sentence they would have given Gillard advice that would have stopped the boats if she’d implemented it. That advice would have been something along the lines of ‘_*Turn back the boats and don’t worry about getting permission from the Indonesians – they didn’t get our permission to send the boats to us’.*_
But Gillard of course was too proud and arrogant to seek advice from the opposition, so the boats continued and rapidly increased in number and now we’re still paying for it and will be for years to come.

With the recent escalation of problems in the Middle East, just imagine the number of illegal boat people we’d be getting by now if Labor was still in power. For this reason alone, we just can’t risk another Labor government in this country.


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## noco (29 October 2014)

bunyip said:


> That just about sums it up – Labor still don’t have a clue!
> 
> Remember when Gillard assembled a ‘panel of experts’ to formulate a strategy for stopping the boats? I wonder how many thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars that cost!
> Her ‘panel of experts’ didn’t include the two people who truly were experts in stopping the boats – John Howard and his Foreign Affairs minister Alexander Downer. No need for a ‘panel of experts’ if she’d consulted those two men – in just one sentence they would have given Gillard advice that would have stopped the boats if she’d implemented it. That advice would have been something along the lines of ‘_*Turn back the boats and don’t worry about getting permission from the Indonesians – they didn’t get our permission to send the boats to us’.*_
> ...




AMEN and so say all of us.


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## noco (30 October 2014)

Shorten and Marles appears to be at logger heads with each other over the turn back issue.

The Green/Labor Party appear to be hell bent on going to the next election with the old Rudd/Gillard policy....I hope they do because it will political suicide for them.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...g-back-the-votes/story-fnihsr9v-1227106334050


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## Tisme (31 October 2014)

noco said:


> Shorten and Marles appears to be at logger heads with each other over the turn back issue.
> 
> The Green/Labor Party appear to be hell bent on going to the next election with the old Rudd/Gillard policy....I hope they do because it will political suicide for them.
> 
> ...




Depends if you want to believe the paper of course


"Voters would remember how Labor under Kevin Rudd scrapped the Howard government’s equally successful border policies and promptly lured more than 50,000 boat people.

That colossal blunder cost 1200 people their lives at sea and cost Australian taxpayers billions."

Then there's this:

http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/the...blications/australian-border-deaths-database/


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## bunyip (31 October 2014)

_The Italian Government duly launched Mare Nostrum, a policy much like the Gillard government’s, turning its navy into a taxi service.
The results were equally disastrous: illegal immigration to Italy rocketed to 150,000 a year, and drownings soared above 2500.
Shocked, Italy is now about to dismantle Mare Nostrum._

One hundred and fifty thousand illegal boat people a year or even substantially more is a very real possibility if a Shorten government is put into power at the next election. The 12 thousand million dollar cost of the problem created by the Rudd government continues to rise due to the ongoing cost of keeping these people in detention centers until they can be processed, and supporting them on welfare if they’re granted citizenship. But that cost, colossal as it is, would look like small change compared to the cost of the hordes that would soon head our way under another Labor government.


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## drsmith (4 November 2014)

The latest OSB update has no boat arrivals during the month of October.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...releases/monthly-operational-update-october-2
The number of returns though has declined.



> Seven illegal maritime arrival transferees were voluntarily returned to their country of origin after electing to go home from an offshore processing centre””three Iraqis, two Iranians, and two Indians.
> 
> Three illegal maritime arrival detainees were voluntarily removed””one Iranian, one Vietnamese and one Sri Lankan.




http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...oint-agency-task-force-monthly-update-october


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## Ijustnewit (11 November 2014)

I just can't believe what I have just read on the ABC news.
 " Tasmania touted as humane , cost effective, productive asylum seeker solution."
What the hell ? We are already the welfare capital of Australia. 



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...processing-centre/5880104?WT.ac=statenews_tas


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## drsmith (11 November 2014)

Ijustnewit said:


> I just can't believe what I have just read on the ABC news.
> " Tasmania touted as humane , cost effective, productive asylum seeker solution."
> What the hell ? We are already the welfare capital of Australia.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...processing-centre/5880104?WT.ac=statenews_tas



These asylum lawyer types aren't too happy the government has stopped the boats.

That will ultimately cut off their revenue stream.


----------



## bunyip (11 November 2014)

Ijustnewit said:


> I just can't believe what I have just read on the ABC news.
> " Tasmania touted as humane , cost effective, productive asylum seeker solution."
> What the hell ? We are already the welfare capital of Australia.
> 
> ...




I can’t resist making a flippant remark of ‘_better Tassie than my state of Queensland_’!.
Seriously though, IJN, I completely understand your concerns.
Pity we can’t make this Julian Burnside character live for a year or two in one of the many neighborhoods that have been completely taken over and  ruined by Islamists in countries like The Netherlands – maybe then he might open his eyes and have some understanding of the potentially negative outcome of what he’s suggesting by using Tasmania as a dumping ground for illegal Islamic immigrants.


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## drsmith (18 November 2014)

Scott Morrison's got the child senator screeching again,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...r-asylum-seekers-in-indonesia-cut-off/5900962


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## drsmith (21 November 2014)

Indonesian people smugglers have resorted to sending asylum seekers to the small Pacific island state of Yap.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...n-small-micronesian-island-tyring-to-/5908060

Can we count to 10 before SHY suggests we offer assistance ?


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## bunyip (24 November 2014)

drsmith said:


> Indonesian people smugglers have resorted to sending asylum seekers to the small Pacific island state of Yap.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...n-small-micronesian-island-tyring-to-/5908060
> 
> Can we count to 10 before SHY suggests we offer assistance ?





Good job we got rid of Gillard/Rudd - they would have flown this mob to Australia by now if they were still in power. Come to think of it, they would have sailed here direct without going to Yap - Labor would have sent our navy out to welcome them and ensure safe passage.

I see the Indonesians are now complaining about the illegal refugees they've been landed with since Abbot threw a spanner in their usual practice of sending the illegals on to us.
Tough luck boys - you sent us 50 thousand of them without giving a thought to how we'd look after them or what effect they'd have on our economy. Now _*you *_can deal with the problem and come up with a solution that discourages them from coming to _*your*_ country.
The problem will be solved for you though if Shorten wins the next election - it'll be straight back to the good ol' Rudd/Gillard days when you could send us as many illegal boat people as you wanted, and we'd take the whole damn lot!


----------



## bunyip (25 November 2014)

The following is pretty long but well worth a read. It’s the perspective of an American who loves Australia and Australians, and urges us to hang on to what we’ve got.
I posted it over on the religion thread and I'm posting it again here so as to get the message out to as many people as possible, in particular to those who think we should lay out the welcome mat to everyone who wants to come here, regardless of whether or not they're from religions and cultures that are compatible with our way of life.

Although I can see many changes for the worse since my childhood, I agree with the American that we’ve got a great country and a great lifestyle.
I implore each and every one of you to hang on as hard as you can to what we have in this great country Australia, and strongly resist religious fanatics who would change us into the sort of troubled countries they came from.

As the American said in his last line.... _*'Just value in Australia what you have here and don't give it away.'*_

David Mason is a Writer, a Professor, and a Poet Laureate of Colorado

There's a lot to admire about Australia , especially
if you're a visiting American, says David Mason.

More often than you might expect, Australian friends
patiently listening to me enthuse about their country
have said,''We need outsiders like you to remind us
what we have.'' So here it is - a small presumptuous
list of what one foreigner admires in Oz.

1.. Health care.
I know the controversies, but basic national health
care is a gift. In America , medical expenses are a
leading cause of bankruptcy. The drug companies
dominate politics and advertising. Obama is being
crucified for taking halting baby steps towards sanity.
You can't turn on the telly without hours of drug
advertisements - something I have never yet seen here.
And your emphasis on prevention - making cigarettes
less accessible, for one - is a model.

2.. Food.
Yes, we have great food in America too, especially
in the big cities. But your bread is less sweet, your
lamb is cheaper, and your supermarket vegetables
and fruits are fresher than ours. Too often in my country
America , an apple is a ball of pulp as big as your face.
The dainty Pink Lady apples of Oz are the juiciest I've had.
And don't get me started on coffee. In American small
towns it tastes like water flavoured with burnt dirt,
but the smallest shop in the smallest town in Oz can
make a first-rate latte. I love your ubiquitous bakeries,
and your hot-cross buns. Shall I go on?

3. Language.
How do you do it?
The rhyming slang and Aboriginal place names are
like magic spells. Words that seem vaguely English
yet also resemble an argot from another planet.
I love the way institutional names get turned
into diminutives - Vinnie's and Salvos - and
absolutely nothing's sacred. Everything is an
opportunity for word games and everyone has
a nickname. Lingo makes the world go round.
It's the spontaneous wit of the people that tickles
me most. Late one night at a barbie my new mate
Suds remarked: ''Nothing's the same since 24-7.''
Amen to that.

4.. Free-to-air TV.
In Oz, you buy a TV, plug it in and watch some
of the best programming I've ever seen - uncensored.
In America , you can't get diddly-squat without
paying a cable or satellite company heavy fees.
In Oz a few channels make it hard to choose.
In America , you've got 400 channels
and nothing to watch.

5. Small shops.
Outside the big cities in America corporations
have nearly erased them. Identical malls with
identical restaurants serving inferior food.
Except for geography, it's hard to tell one American
town from another. The ''take-away'' culture here
in Australia is wonderful. The human encounters
are real - people love to stir, and stories get told.
The curries here are to die for. And you don't
have to tip!

6.. Free camping.
We used to have this too, and I guess it's still free
when you backpack miles away from the roads.
But I love the fact that in Oz everyone owns the
shoreline and in many places you can pull up a
camper van and stare at the sea for weeks. I love
the ''primitive'' and independent camp-grounds,
the life out-of-doors. The few idiots who leave
their stubbies and rubbish behind in these
pristine places ought to be transported in chains
to the penal colonies.

7.. Religion.
In America , it's everywhere - especially where it's not
supposed to be, like politics. I imagine you have your
Pharisees too, making a big public show of devotion,
but I have yet to meet one here.

8.. Roads.
Peak hour aside, I've found travel on your roads pure
heaven. My country's ''Freeways'' are crowded,
crumbling, insanely knotted with looping overpasses - it's
like racing homicidal maniacs on fraying spaghetti! I've
driven the Hume Highway without stress, and I love
the Princes Highway when it's two lanes. Ninety minutes
south of Bateman's Bay I was sorry to see one billboard
for a McDonald's. It's blocking a lovely paddock view.
Someone should remove the MacDonald's Billboard.

9.. Real multiculturalism.
I know there are tensions, just like anywhere else,
but I love the distinctiveness of your communities
and the way you publicly acknowledge the Aboriginal
past. Recently, too, I spent quality time with the
Melbourne Greeks, and was gratified both by their
devotion to their own great language and culture and
their openness to an Afghan lunch.

10. Fewer guns.
You had Port Arthur in 1996 and got real in response.
America replicates such massacres several times a year
and nothing changes. Why? Our religion of individual
rights makes the good of the community an impossible
dream. Instead of mateship we have ''It's mine and
nobody else's''. We talk a great game about freedom,
but too often live in fear. There's more to say - your
kaleidoscopic birds, your perfumed bush in springtime,
your vast beaches. These are just a few of the blessings
that make Australia a rarity. Of course, it's not paradise -
nowhere is - but I love it here. No need to wave flags like
the Americans, and add to the world's windiness.

Just value in Australia what you have here
and don't give it away.


----------



## drsmith (30 November 2014)

The government has turned back another boat, this time to Sri Lanka and the best Labor can do is complain about secrecy.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...urn-back-37-sri-lankan-asylum-seekers/5927436


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2014)

drsmith said:


> The government has turned back another boat, this time to Sri Lanka and the best Labor can do is complain about secrecy.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...urn-back-37-sri-lankan-asylum-seekers/5927436




Why shouldn't people complain about secrecy ?

As the old saying goes "if people don't know what you are doing, they don't know what you are doing wrong".


----------



## drsmith (1 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Why shouldn't people complain about secrecy ?
> 
> As the old saying goes "if people don't know what you are doing, they don't know what you are doing wrong".



We know what Labor did wrong when in office and so did the people smugglers. The results spoke for themselves.

If the people smugglers don't know what you are doing...............

A level of secrecy is required because to deal with criminal activity effectively, one does not broadcast their punches in advance or encourage such criminal activity by announcing goods delivered immediately upon receipt as Labor did in office.


----------



## noco (1 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> We know what Labor did wrong when in office and so did the people smugglers. The results spoke for themselves.
> 
> If the people smugglers don't know what you are doing...............
> 
> A level of secrecy is required because to deal with criminal activity effectively, one does not broadcast their punches in advance or encourage such criminal activity by announcing goods delivered immediately upon receipt as Labor did in office.




+ 1 Doc......Those ex union hacks in the Labor Party would not have the common sense to realize that and that is why the people smugglers loved the Labor Party....easy pickings.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> We know what Labor did wrong when in office and so did the people smugglers. The results spoke for themselves.
> 
> If the people smugglers don't know what you are doing...............
> 
> A level of secrecy is required because to deal with criminal activity effectively, one does not broadcast their punches in advance or encourage such criminal activity by announcing goods delivered immediately upon receipt as Labor did in office.




Doesn't make sense.

If the government's tactics were so successful, wouldn't it make more sense to publicise them ?

I mean if asylum seekers were locked in a dark room for a month as a deterrent surely more people would be deterred if they knew about these tactics ?


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Doesn't make sense.
> 
> If the government's tactics were so successful, wouldn't it make more sense to publicise them ?




What they are doing is successful, why change it?


----------



## noco (1 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> What they are doing is successful, why change it?




Exactly my point too.


----------



## bunyip (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Doesn't make sense.
> 
> If the government's tactics were so successful, wouldn't it make more sense to publicise them ?
> 
> I mean if asylum seekers were locked in a dark room for a month as a deterrent surely more people would be deterred if they knew about these tactics ?



I'd say the deterrent value of the LNP's strategy has been very well demonstrated indeed.
Constantly broadcasting what they're doing would only give the idiot human rights lawyers and the leftie journals more incentive to criticise the government.
Results are what count, and even Labor has conceded that the government is getting results in stopping the boats.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 December 2014)

> Constantly broadcasting what they're doing would only give the idiot human rights lawyers and the leftie journals more incentive to criticise the government.




Yes, the government doesn't need any more criticism does it ?

Politically speaking, the government is closing down discussion on about the only topic it has had any success in.

If that's how they want it, so be it.


----------



## bunyip (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, the government doesn't need any more criticism does it ?



Criticism is never good for any government but there's nothing wrong with fair criticism. What's disappointing is when some people stoop to outright lies in their attempts to discredit the government. Like Gillian Triggs for example.
http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-flagrant-fibs-of-gillian-triggs-/3706



SirRumpole said:


> Politically speaking, the government is closing down discussion on about the only topic it has had any success in.



Oh I don't really think so. There's been endless discussion on the illegal boat people issue since the LNP got in.  
I'm amused by people who attempt to throw mud at the government over the very efficient way they've dealt with the problem created by Labor. Compare Abbot's effort in this regard to the stumbling, bumbling efforts of Rudd, Gillard and Bowen in creating the problem in the first place and then being totally clueless about how to fix it.


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2014)

bunyip said:


> Oh I don't really think so. There's been endless discussion on the illegal boat people issue since the LNP got in.
> I'm amused by people who attempt to throw mud at the government over the very efficient way they've dealt with the problem created by Labor. Compare Abbot's effort in this regard to the stumbling, bumbling efforts of Rudd, Gillard and Bowen in creating the problem in the first place and then being totally clueless about how to fix it.




Well the reason for that is simple, bunyip, Labor didn't want to fix it. They were quite happy, with thousands of probable factory foder/ welfare recipients, flooding in, it bolsters Labors voter base.


----------



## Tisme (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Doesn't make sense.
> 
> If the government's tactics were so successful, wouldn't it make more sense to publicise them ?
> 
> I mean if asylum seekers were locked in a dark room for a month as a deterrent surely more people would be deterred if they knew about these tactics ?





If you want to know what is going on in open for business, closed for busybodies Australia you might need to look to overseas outlets for the facts, coz the local rags aren't gonna tell ya. 

Scott ""We're taking the sugar off the table. That's what we're doing" Morrison is merely a servant of the crown, he doesn't have to answer to the Australian public and let's face it the Australian public don't want the burden of guilt that comes from knowing the living hell refugees are consigned to.


----------



## Tisme (2 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> thousands of probable factory foder/ welfare recipients, flooding in, it bolsters Labors voter base.




You do know that the LNP base voters include the same people you just denigrated? The true toffs in Oz are a miniscule fraction of the voting public, but the vagabond princes are many and living in poor town Australia dreaming of their riches by association.


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> If you want to know what is going on in open for business, closed for busybodies Australia you might need to look to overseas outlets for the facts, coz the local rags aren't gonna tell ya.
> 
> Scott ""We're taking the sugar off the table. That's what we're doing" Morrison is merely a servant of the crown, he doesn't have to answer to the Australian public and let's face it the Australian public don't want the burden of guilt that comes from knowing the living hell refugees are consigned to.




Well if you're burdened by guilt, you could always go overseas and do some voluteer work, N/W Africa is screaming for aid workers, or maybe Syria.
With your skill set, they would all welcome you with open arms.

You guys are so full of it.lol


----------



## Tisme (2 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Well if you're burdened by guilt, you could always go overseas and do some voluteer work, N/W Africa is screaming for aid workers, or maybe Syria.
> With your skill set, they would all welcome you with open arms.
> 
> You guys are so full of it.lol





I'm not burdened by any guilt, not full of anything that you don't also have in the same proportion, but you apparently have an issue with semi literate erudite people who don't think likewise?   So disappointed a sublime (light hearted) post would cause the knives to come out based on jealousy. Glad I didn't post my career highlights and the other tertiary stuff I "did". 



No way am I risking my health mixing it with primitives who think low level, act low level and are comfortable dragging others down to their own levels, by force if necessary. I will leave that to those better experienced at such things than me.... got anyone in mind?


----------



## overhang (2 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Well the reason for that is simple, bunyip, Labor didn't want to fix it. They were quite happy, with thousands of probable factory foder/ welfare recipients, flooding in, it bolsters Labors voter base.



I was going to address this but surely this comment is in jest?


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> I'm not burdened by any guilt, not full of anything that you don't also have in the same proportion, but you apparently have an issue with semi literate erudite people who don't think likewise?   So disappointed a sublime (light hearted) post would cause the knives to come out based on jealousy. Glad I didn't post my career highlights and the other tertiary stuff I "did". :




What knives? I believed you. 
Now you tell me you were telling porky's, is there any wonder it is hard to believe your sincerity.




Tisme said:


> No way am I risking my health mixing it with primitives who think low level, act low level and are comfortable dragging others down to their own levels, by force if necessary. I will leave that to those better experienced at such things than me.... got anyone in mind?




That would be the Labor Party, take everyone down to the lowest common denominator?


----------



## Tisme (2 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> What knives? I believed you.
> Now you tell me you were telling porky's, is there any wonder it is hard to believe your sincerity.




I must admit I don't understand what you are trying to put forward. I haven't lied and I don't know why you accuse me of doing so. I'm man enough to confess I made a mistake in revealing too much to an error of judgement ... so snipe away if you must.


----------



## noco (2 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Well the reason for that is simple, bunyip, Labor didn't want to fix it. They were quite happy, with thousands of probable factory foder/ welfare recipients, flooding in, it bolsters Labors voter base.




The main reason Gillard and Rudd allowed  illegal immigrants in to Australia was to create division and dissension in the community. 

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/

*They have opened the doors to illegal invaders who are bringing in a religion that goes totally against our way of life. They are using Islam to create divisions in our society and turn citizen against citizen. At the same time, they have neglected our own needy; our aged and veterans, the  very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.*


----------



## SirRumpole (2 December 2014)

noco said:
			
		

> our aged and veterans, the very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.




Made worse by the proposed co-payment from none other than the pensioners friend, Tony Abbott.

But then didn't you say noco that everyone who received a $900 cheque from the Rudd government should now pay it back ?

There goes a pensioners power bill payment for the year.


----------



## noco (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Made worse by the proposed co-payment from none other than the pensioners friend, Tony Abbott.
> 
> But then didn't you say noco that everyone who received a $900 cheque from the Rudd government should now pay it back ?
> 
> There goes a pensioners power bill payment for the year.




Can't wait for Labor to get back in.......we might get $1800 next time.

The co payment has not gone through as far I know.....so what are raving on about?


----------



## Julia (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Made worse by the proposed co-payment from none other than the pensioners friend, Tony Abbott.
> 
> But then didn't you say noco that everyone who received a $900 cheque from the Rudd government should now pay it back ?
> 
> There goes a pensioners power bill payment for the year.



What?   Co-payment is capped at $70 p.a.
How many people only pay that for power for the year????

Maybe one coffee and a bun at the RSL less per year.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 December 2014)

Julia said:


> What?   Co-payment is capped at $70 p.a.
> How many people only pay that for power for the year????
> 
> Maybe one coffee and a bun at the RSL less per year.




The power bill reference was in relation to noco's suggestion that people pay back the $900 they got under Rudd, not the co-payment.


----------



## noco (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Made worse by the proposed co-payment from none other than the pensioners friend, Tony Abbott.
> 
> But then didn't you say noco that everyone who received a $900 cheque from the Rudd government should now pay it back ?
> 
> There goes a pensioners power bill payment for the year.




We are having to pay back the $900 through the government who has to find the money from tax payers to pay off Labor debt....so we are paying it back indirectly......don't you get it?......or are you trying twist things around in your usual fashion.


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2014)

noco said:


> The main reason Gillard and Rudd allowed  illegal immigrants in to Australia was to create division and dissension in the community.
> 
> http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/
> 
> *They have opened the doors to illegal invaders who are bringing in a religion that goes totally against our way of life. They are using Islam to create divisions in our society and turn citizen against citizen. At the same time, they have neglected our own needy; our aged and veterans, the  very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.*




I don't agree with that, where the asylum seekers came from or what their religion, I feel was secondry.
The primary reasoning would have been to placate the Greens and it also fitted with there agenda to increase the population.
Bringing in refugees, would have a natural downward pressure on wages and free up the labour market, to feed the resources boom.
Also like Sydney, when you have a large concentrated population, it generates its own economy.
Unlike the smaller cities, which are very cyclical, the problem with that theory, is the pain in the transition hurts the residents.
Well that's my take on it.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 December 2014)

noco said:


> We are having to pay back the $900 through the government who has to find the money from tax payers to pay off Labor debt....so we are paying it back indirectly......don't you get it?......or are you trying twist things around in your usual fashion.




No, you don't get it. You keep quoting red neck web sites that waffle on about doing more for the elderly and then praise the Abbott government for kicking old people in the backside.


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> No, you don't get it. You keep quoting red neck web sites that waffle on about doing more for the elderly and then praise the Abbott government for kicking old people in the backside.




Can't wait to read your posts in three years time. I've got a great memory.


----------



## Julia (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> No, you don't get it. You keep quoting red neck web sites that waffle on about doing more for the elderly and then praise the Abbott government for kicking old people in the backside.




How are old people being kicked in the backside?  The only thing that is proposed to change for them is a slight change in the way the pension is indexed, no cuts, continuing increases every few months.

If that doesn't suit, then more people might be motivated to become self funded.

The whining is just endless.
Everyone wants a successful, positive economy, but no one is prepared to pay even the smallest share to that end.
Pretty disgusting.  Just endless, gimme, gimme.


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2014)

Julia said:


> How are old people being kicked in the backside?  The only thing that is proposed to change for them is a slight change in the way the pension is indexed, no cuts, continuing increases every few months.
> 
> If that doesn't suit, then more people might be motivated to become self funded.
> 
> ...




Yes, it will be interesting when the extra taxing has to be applied.

Some who have been screaming, may be screaming, it will be interesting.

If Syd's land tax comes in, those with rental properties will be hit.

If SMSF are hit by limits on withdrawls, and removal of franking credits.

In order to pay for degrees in advanced pottery, or indexed pensions at above cpi.

It will then be intersting, to hear the rusted on loonies.

Just looked at the thread heading, completely off topic, appologies.


----------



## noco (2 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Can't wait to read your posts in three years time. I've got a great memory.




Me too.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2014)

Julia said:


> How are old people being kicked in the backside?  The only thing that is proposed to change for them is a slight change in the way the pension is indexed, no cuts, continuing increases every few months.
> 
> If that doesn't suit, then more people might be motivated to become self funded.
> 
> ...




No cuts ?



> ABOUT 530,000 pensioners will be worse off as a result of Tony Abbott’s decision to cut deeming rate thresholds, according to the Department of Social Services.
> 
> Asked in estimates hearings by Labor senators how many Australian pensioners would be moved on to a lower part-pension as a result of the changes to the deeming rate thresholds, the *department’s Ian Joyce said: “We estimate that 530,000 customers would have a reduction in payment.”
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...30000-pensioners/story-fn59niix-1227110191593




Yes, you are right.

Disgusting.

Are you prepared to pay more tax Julia ?

If so I think that is a fairer way to reduce the deficit than hitting OAP's.

And I have heard you comment quite often that this budget is unfair, so please give us your idea of what a fair budget is.


----------



## sptrawler (3 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> No cuts ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You're talking about deeming rates affecting pensions as disgusting.

Then in the next breath, your saying that the family home should be included in the pension assetts test.

What the hell is going on, with you lefties?

Let's be honest, you hate people who have made it and you hope you don't fall into that catergory.lol
Best of luck with your balancing act.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2014)

> Then in the next breath, your saying that the family home should be included in the pension assetts test.




Where did I say that ?


----------



## noco (3 December 2014)

No doubt many ASF members would have watched the 7.30 report last night......if you missed it, here is a repeat via the link below.

How on earth the Green/Labor party could ever be proud of the trauma they put our sailors through is beyond comprehension....The Green/Labor party have scarred the minds of those sailors for life and not forgetting the loss of some 1200 known lives lost through the stupidity of opening our borders to people smugglers....How many unknown lives were lost thanks to the Green/Labor party?...we will never know.

The cost to the Australian economy is something like $13 billion and climbing and it is all on the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd credit card left for the Abbott Government to pay back.

What a crummy lot we had  2007/2013....*SHAM...SHAM...SHAM.







http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s4140849.htm*


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2014)

noco said:


> No doubt many ASF members would have watched the 7.30 report last night......if you missed it, here is a repeat via the link below.
> 
> How on earth the Green/Labor party could ever be proud of the trauma they put our sailors through is beyond comprehension....The Green/Labor party have scarred the minds of those sailors for life and not forgetting the loss of some 1200 known lives lost through the stupidity of opening our borders to people smugglers....How many unknown lives were lost thanks to the Green/Labor party?...we will never know.
> 
> ...



*

The Rudd-Gillard governments stuffed up the handling of the asylum seeker issue, no doubt about it, mainly imo due to their rejection of temporary protection visas. Permanent residency was the sugar on the table that enticed many asylum seekers to come here.

If they knew that their efforts would only have got them a temporary stay then they would think again if getting here was worth the trouble. Labor and the bleeding heart Greens never saw that, hence the mess.*


----------



## drsmith (3 December 2014)

The latest OSB report for November has no boats or arrivals by boat. 

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...eleases/monthly-operational-update-november-2

The recent turn back to Sri Lanka from which one asylum seeker will be sent to an offshore processing centre must be going to appear in December's report.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 December 2014)

Congratulations to Scott Morrison for getting TPV's reinstated.

IMO it's the best solution to a very difficult problem, and I certainly hope Labor doesn't reverse them when they get back.


----------



## IFocus (5 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Congratulations to Scott Morrison for getting TPV's reinstated.
> 
> IMO it's the best solution to a very difficult problem, and I certainly hope Labor doesn't reverse them when they get back.
> 
> ...





http://www.theguardian.com/australi...n-unchecked-control-over-asylum-seekers-lives


----------



## bunyip (5 December 2014)

IFocus said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/australi...n-unchecked-control-over-asylum-seekers-lives




From the link above....
_Australia now regards itself as free from the bonds of the Refugees Convention – a treaty Australia helped write, and willingly signed up to, more than half a century ago. All references to it have been removed from Australian law.

Instead of adhering to the established, internationally-agreed framework for dealing with asylum seekers, Australia will follow a “new, independent and self-contained statutory framework”, that sets out the government’s own interpretation of international law._

Excellent - freeing ourselves from the shackles of the refugee convention was long overdue. 
The bozos at the United Nations couldn’t care less if our economy is completely wrecked as a result of a hundred thousand or more illegal refugees arriving by boat every year. And make no mistake about it, a hundred thousand a year was well and truly on the cards if the numbers had kept increasing like they were doing under Labor. The escalation of troubles in the Middle East would have, by itself, caused numbers to increase significantly.  
Well done Tony Abbot and Scott Morrison for taking decisive measures to address the problem. Their detractors are just miffed that the LNP has fixed the mess that Labor created and was then for six years utterly powerless to fix.


----------



## drsmith (5 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Congratulations to Scott Morrison for getting TPV's reinstated.
> 
> IMO it's the best solution to a very difficult problem, and I certainly hope Labor doesn't reverse them when they get back.



By such staunch opposition to TPV's and turnbacks, Labor only weds itself to it's record of gross failure and tragedy.


----------



## drsmith (5 December 2014)

A case where the last word is by far the most sensible,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-05/early-hours-senate-debate-leaves-tempers-frayed/5946036


----------



## Tisme (5 December 2014)

Guardian journo doesn't like it

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...n-unchecked-control-over-asylum-seekers-lives


----------



## bunyip (8 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Guardian journo doesn't like it
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/australi...n-unchecked-control-over-asylum-seekers-lives




I’d like to see that Guardian journo (and anyone else who’s opposed to the government’s decisive measures for stopping the boats) explain how we’d afford the massive bill that would result if the Abbot government went soft on border protection. Rudd and Gillard ran up a bill of more than 12 billion dollars over six years by effectively giving the green light to illegal boat people – a bill that’s now risen much higher due to the ongoing cost of keeping them in detention centers until they can be processed.
The numbers were increasing exponentially – of the fifty thousand who paid people smugglers to bring there here, seventeen thousand of them arrived in the final year of the Labor government.
That number could well have grown to fifty thousand a year by now if Abbot & Co hadn’t put an end to it. The 12 billion dollar bill incurred by Labor over six years could easily have become our annual bill if the people smuggling trade hadn’t been shut down by decisive action from the LNP.
These days we hear the word ‘billion’ so often that it’s easy to forget just how much money a billion dollars really is. A billion is one thousand million, 12 billion dollars is 12 thousand million – a colossal amount of money in anyone’s language. 
Given the huge debt that Australia now carries (much of it run up by six years of Labor government), and given the huge monthly interest bill on that debt, is there anyone on this forum who is stupid enough to think we can afford to outlay an additional 12 billion dollars each year by bowing to pressure from the United Nations and other bleeding hearts who are sufficiently misguided as to believe that we are inhumane in saying no to the hordes of people who want to come to our country.
Humanity issues aside, the simple economic fact is that we just can’t afford to allow our country to be used as a refuge for every troubled person around the world who wishes to come here.


----------



## drsmith (8 December 2014)

Stopping the boats is in the long run the best humanitarian solution despite what the critics of the current government's policies say. 

People smugglers only care about the profit they can earn from their illegal activities and not the safety or welfare of those who they transport.

Our government should be in full control of any inbound immigration and discussion on the nature of that program should stand alone from people smuggling which itself should be prevented as a matter of principal.


----------



## orr (8 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> Our government should be in full control of any inbound immigration l.




I'm not opposed to that and can't see why anybody would be. But it is the case that some of us are happy to send people back to their persecutors to imprisoned for their beliefs, clubbed to death, buried alive or just plain old disappeared. As opposed to here, where we only threaten their children if they don't do what their told whilst we keep them indefinitely in our Gulags. 

And then there are those that see some injustice in that.  Well I know what side of that argument I'm on, so I'm off to prick the eye's of some sparrows, I like the way they hop around and bump into things while the cat just walks around standing over them. av good day all.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

orr said:


> I'm not opposed to that and can't see why anybody would be. But it is the case that some of us are happy to send people back to their persecutors to imprisoned for their beliefs, clubbed to death, buried alive or just plain old disappeared. As opposed to here, where we only threaten their children if they don't do what their told whilst we keep them indefinitely in our Gulags.
> 
> And then there are those that see some injustice in that.  Well I know what side of that argument I'm on, so I'm off to prick the eye's of some sparrows, av good day all.




I would agree with you, except, if their motivation was to escape persecution, why wouldn't they just move to a nearby country.
One that has a similar culture and religious beliefs? 
Why bypass these countries and risk their lives, to travel all the way to Australia?

I think we all have an idea why, because it is economic asylum they want, and why should they get it? because they can afford it?

What makes them any more deserving, than those who can't afford to bypass the system?


----------



## drsmith (8 December 2014)

orr said:


> I'm not opposed to that and can't see why anybody would be. But it is the case that some of us are happy to send people back to their persecutors to imprisoned for their beliefs, clubbed to death, buried alive or just plain old disappeared. As opposed to here, where we only threaten their children if they don't do what their told whilst we keep them indefinitely in our Gulags.
> 
> And then there are those that see some injustice in that.



What we know for a fact is that approximately 1200 men, women and children drowned at sea in making the attempt.

As I've said before, the so-called moral ground from which the above reasoning is preached is nothing but thin air.


----------



## Macquack (8 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> What we know for a fact is that approximately 1200 men, women and children drowned at sea in making the attempt.
> 
> As I've said before, the so-called moral ground from which the above reasoning is preached is nothing but thin air.




Crocodile tears are cheap and also come out of thin air.

1200 Australians  are killed on the roads every year, who do you blame for that?


----------



## drsmith (8 December 2014)

Macquack said:


> Crocodile tears are cheap and also come out of thin air.
> 
> 1200 Australians  are killed on the roads every year, who do you blame for that?



That, tragic as it is, doesn't justify the other.


----------



## banco (8 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> What we know for a fact is that approximately 1200 men, women and children drowned at sea in making the attempt.
> 
> As I've said before, the so-called moral ground from which the above reasoning is preached is nothing but thin air.




Let's not pretend Abbott could care less if they drowned. He didn't want them here full stop.  If they somehow managed to procure more shipworthy ships and the death toll from drowning went to nil do you really think they'd consider that a good outcome?


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> I would agree with you, except, if their motivation was to escape persecution, why wouldn't they just move to a nearby country.
> One that has a similar culture and religious beliefs?
> Why bypass these countries and risk their lives, to travel all the way to Australia?
> 
> ...




Hey guys, what about attacking my post? is it unworthy?

Mcquak and banco, there wouldn't be a drowning problem if we had Indonesias attitude.

There wouldn't be a camp of refugees, sitting at the entrance to the chunnel, if Brittain had the same attitude as Europe.

Does that mean we and Britain just let everyone in, that wants to get there?

Jeez it sounds dumb, when we are having trouble supporting our existing welfare system.
Maybe you should get together and start a fostering system for orphaned children or families in distress, we have lots of them.
I'm not trying to be nasty, but where do you stop? probably not when you want it to stop.

I really would recommend you try to heal your social conscience by helping the needy, we have plenty of them.
Bob Hawke said"no child will be living in poverty by 1990". 
What he found out, was no matter how much money you throw at it, doesn't change what they spend it on.

The same with asylum seekers, if they can get to Australia and on welfare, your only limited by how many you can support.
The more you can support, the more will come, untill your system fails.
Then it isn't selective.


----------



## bunyip (9 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Hey guys, what about attacking my post? is it unworthy?
> 
> Mcquak and banco, there wouldn't be a drowning problem if we had Indonesias attitude.
> 
> ...



Excellent post, SP. 
People can whine all they like about how inhumane it is to stop them from coming here, or turning them back if they do come here, but I’m still waiting for them to tell us how we’d afford the 12 or 15 billion dollar annual price tag that would result from doing a Kevin Rudd and throwing our borders open to all and sundry. The interest alone on 12 billion would be around 50 million dollars a month.
I can think of some very needy Australians who are woefully under-funded and would be delighted if 50 million a month was spent on them instead of spending it on illegal immigrants – intellectually disabled people spring to mind as one section of the community that desperately needs additional funding.
These people who keep pushing the humanity argument – I wonder how many of them have been humane enough to take two or three homeless people into their homes, I wonder how many of them are being humane enough to do voluntary work for underprivileged people in their communities, I wonder how many of them have given years of service to community service clubs like Lions or Rotary or Apex. 
And I wonder how many of them have managed a business where they’ve had to make tough economic decisions to keep a tight rein on expenditure and debt. 
Unpalatable though it may be to many kind-hearted people, decisions about border protection have to be made first and foremost on economic grounds, not on humanity grounds. Being humane on a massive scale costs massive amounts of money, as Rudd and Gillard found out the hard way. If we can’t afford it then we can’t do it, and we would have destroyed our economy if we’d kept trying.


----------



## orr (9 December 2014)

banco said:


> Let's not pretend Abbott could care less if they drowned. He didn't want them here full stop.  If they somehow managed to procure more shipworthy ships and the death toll from drowning went to nil do you really think they'd consider that a good outcome?




That's the whole point isn't Banco, All they are in the end is political pawns. Nothing scared the 5hit out of the bully boys more than the outcome that was plausible with Labors Malaysia resettlement because it would of robbed them of the capacity to turn the rabid xenophobic underbelly into votes. What's been said here about Morrisons $12 million bribe to Cambodia for how many refugees resettled, was it 6... There's no winners in this just bloody mindedness, ignorance and suffering bent to serve the cause of the sociopaths who'll grease themselves with into power with it through the sloppy sphincter human indifference.

Any  connection between Ros Packers $500,000 donation and her litle boys casino in Rajapaksa's deathstate and Tony's love in with him? them both I should say......

take that as a reply SP


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2014)

bunyip said:


> Excellent post, SP.
> People can whine all they like about how inhumane it is to stop them from coming here, or turning them back if they do come here, but I’m still waiting for them to tell us how we’d afford the 12 or 15 billion dollar annual price tag that would result from doing a Kevin Rudd and throwing our borders open to all and sundry. The interest alone on 12 billion would be around 50 million dollars a month.
> I can think of some very needy Australians who are woefully under-funded and would be delighted if 50 million a month was spent on them instead of spending it on illegal immigrants – intellectually disabled people spring to mind as one section of the community that desperately needs additional funding.
> These people who keep pushing the humanity argument – I wonder how many of them have been humane enough to take two or three homeless people into their homes, I wonder how many of them are being humane enough to do voluntary work for underprivileged people in their communities, I wonder how many of them have given years of service to community service clubs like Lions or Rotary or Apex.
> ...




How about doing something that's both cheap and humane?

Let say, I don't know... set up a refugee camp near where most of these refugees are and tell them very clearly that this and that conditions must be met for you to be considered a refugee. If you do not have evidence of these persecutions etc., we will not accept you into Australia. That if you make your journey there and do have have these evidences, and if you survived, we will send you back.

Maybe even bring in the international community to help with funding and resettlement.

That would be more humane than let these refugees do what they do to try and get to Australia, then at the last leg... we play tough and let them drown or turn them back and if all that fail, play tougher and making examples out of them by locking them up and stand tall spouting tough words like not going to be morally blackmailed.

Not only does the current policy costs Australians, and Australian alone, a lot of money - increase surveillance, building and keeping the camps etc., chartered flights etc.... It harm a lot of people, including our own moral standing.

We got to be a lot smarter, and a lot kinder, than simply using lives to make examples out of.

Refugees and boats are not going to stop because we're tough and hard-arsed, they will stop when there are no wars and persecution to run away from. I'm not saying that we're responsible or could or should help all the world's refugees... but maybe people ought to at least be heard and we can see what we and our friends can do to help.

While there certainly are non-genuine cases, there are also definitely genuine cases of political persecution... It might be a bit too simplistic to think that people would pack up and leave their country on a boat just so they could live off of our welfare payment.

Would you take that boat ride from Australia to any of those country if at the end of it you'll get paid $50,000 a year for the rest of your life? How about $100,000? How much are the Centrelink payment to poor Australians anyway? $10K a year?

How many Indonesians have claim asylum in Australia? Their country isn't that rich, they're next door practically... so if people would escape to another country for welfare, why aren't the Indonesians? Maybe their country is not at war... maybe they're poor but they will just have to make do.


----

Isn't there a song that goes something like... Ain't no mountain high enough, ain't no sea deep or wide enough to keep me from you? That to show how much I love you, I would travel through ice and fire just to be with you?

We Australians seem to look upon that and say, yea your love is nice and touching... and such devotion might drive your ambition to work harder and contribute to our commonwealth, that and the fact that I help you in your moment of darkness might naturally obligate you to love me just a little more than usual... but you're poor so go get stuffed. I got a date with this rich and clean and professional immigrant who could date anyone but he chose me, and he and his money makes me happy.

I suppose love is nice, but money is the real thing though.

This country is full... unless you got serious dollars on you.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2014)

> While there certainly are non-genuine cases, there are also definitely genuine cases of political persecution...




Yes, on this site for example. Labor supporters are a persecuted minority.


----------



## bunyip (9 December 2014)

orr said:


> Nothing scared the 5hit out of the bully boys more than the outcome that was plausible with Labors Malaysia resettlement because it would of robbed them of the capacity to turn the rabid xenophobic underbelly into votes.




Are you sure the Malaysian Solution was as wonderful as you seem to think?

First, we had to take 4000 processed refugees from Malaysia in return for them taking just 800 asylum seekers from us. That sounds like a pretty good deal for Malaysia but not for us!

Second, the 800 asylum seekers we were going to pass on to Malaysia were a drop in the ocean – almost twice that number were descending on us every month!

Third, the High Court ruled the Malaysian Solution illegal.

The Malaysian Solution was just another of Labor’s many ill-considered policies that promised little and would have delivered even less, even if the High Court had allowed it to go through.

By the way, Orr – have you worked out yet how we’d afford the colossal price tag of taking what you consider to be the humane solution of laying out the welcome mat to illegal boat people like Labor did?


----------



## orr (9 December 2014)

bunyip said:


> Are you sure the Malaysian Solution was as wonderful ............
> 
> Third, the High Court ruled the Malaysian Solution illegal.





I said it was plausible. and Monash university agrees; pays to pay attention .

_'Does this ruling mean the Malaysia Solution is dead?

Effectively yes unless two things happen. The government can seek to change Section 198a which was the section in question to lower the threshold in relation to human rights standards. '
'The government would obviously have to get that through parliament and I would say given the minority structure at the moment, the Gillard government doesn’t have a majority so it would have to get cross-bench support and that might be difficult.'_

But we would not any baby steps toward addressing the pull factors would we. as explained above. 
the other problem is with your imagination, nothing is going to solve that. Young people can be seen as a resource.

And what no comment on the half million  Rajapaksa Packer Abbott oiled up threesome. Or the Cambodian '_bargain_'. hardly surprised.


----------



## bellenuit (9 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> How about doing something that's both cheap and humane?
> 
> Let say, I don't know... set up a refugee camp near where most of these refugees are and tell them very clearly that this and that conditions must be met for you to be considered a refugee. If you do not have evidence of these persecutions etc., we will not accept you into Australia. That if you make your journey there and do have have these evidences, and if you survived, we will send you back.
> 
> ...




Isn't that what is happening right now? Genuine refugees are in UN run refugee camps throughout the world and Australia takes a significant number of these processed refugees in each year, giving them the rights to full Australian citizenship. We obviously can't take every refugee as we would be overwhelmed, but we do our share (perhaps we could increase the intake a bit). Those trying to enter by other means (boat arrivals) are rejected and will not ever be given settlement rights because they jumped the queue so to speak.


----------



## luutzu (9 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Isn't that what is happening right now? Genuine refugees are in UN run refugee camps throughout the world and Australia takes a significant number of these processed refugees in each year, giving them the rights to full Australian citizenship. We obviously can't take every refugee as we would be overwhelmed, but we do our share (perhaps we could increase the intake a bit). Those trying to enter by other means (boat arrivals) are rejected and will not ever be given settlement rights because they jumped the queue so to speak.




I haven't look but I wouldn't imagine there's a camp nearby but they decided to "jump the queue", get on a boat to get here first.

Refugee camps are usually near "active" areas... near borders of warring states. From scanning the headlines over the years, the ones that arrive recently by boat are from Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Iraq/Iran... So if your country is not currently at war but you're persecuted nonetheless - and yes this does happen; or battle is raging but the camp is across the country... so it's often safest to get on a boat to escape than to travel overland across borders - less risk of being captured and imprisoned.

A quick look at wikipedia and found that under Rudd, of some 1600 refugees on Xmas Island, only 44 were found to not be genuine refugees. 

It's not hard to imagine that if you're thinking of fleeing to Australia... given the news of death and detention, if you're not genuine than chances are you'd stay put or go elsewhere. The ones that does try to get here most likely do so because they believe that they do have a genuine case, that those in detention are so because they are not genuine.

Anyway, I don't know what the solution is... but making examples out of those that almost made it here... that's too much like mob justice.


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## drsmith (10 December 2014)

Under rubber stamp Rudd ??

Wasn't he going to set up a camp on Manus to house 10,000 ?

The Rudd government only has the virtue of not being as bad as under Gillard but then it was Rudd who set this train in motion.

If only he had not changed the Howard government's policies, what followed would not have occurred but that was the fault of the electorate for electing the Rudd government in the first place, according to Kevin Rudd.


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## bellenuit (10 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> A quick look at wikipedia and found that under Rudd, of some 1600 refugees on Xmas Island, only 44 were found to not be genuine refugees.




I'm glad you phrased it that way because as far as I understand they mostly are only in a position to determine who ARE NOT genuine refugees. It doesn't imply that the remainder ARE genuine refugees. In most cases, due to documentation being burned in transit, they have no way of determining the status of the boat arrival. They have been given the benefit of the doubt.


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## luutzu (10 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I'm glad you phrased it that way because as far as I understand they mostly are only in a position to determine who ARE NOT genuine refugees. It doesn't imply that the remainder ARE genuine refugees. In most cases, due to documentation being burned in transit, they have no way of determining the status of the boat arrival. They have been given the benefit of the doubt.




That wikipedia source:

"Yet after years of cruel punishment on Nauru, all but 45 of the 1,637 asylum seekers incarcerated in Nauru who were found to be refugees gained residence in Australia or New Zealand."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_Australia

http://cpd.org.au/2012/03/john-menadue-the-pacific-solution-didnt-work-before-and-it-wont-work-now/

----------

I'm not a lawyer but from experience, if asylum seekers does not have enough evidence to be considered  a refugee, their claims are either rejected or they are accepted but on humanitarian grounds - not on grounds of being a refugee as prescribed.


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## drsmith (10 December 2014)

That John Menadue link in the post above is an interesting historical read.



> One-liners derived from focus groups and dog-whistling don’t add up to an acceptable refugee policy. But that is what the Coalition offers. ‘Stop the boats … turn them back to Indonesia … take the boat people to Nauru’.




Firstly, the success of the current government's policies in stopping the boats demonstrates how wrong he was with that.

Secondly, with the Labor/Green sugar on the table, boat arrivals reached 1,000 per week in mid 2013 under the Gillard government blowing his argument of insignificance out of the water.


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## Tisme (10 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> Secondly, with the Labor/Green sugar on the table, boat arrivals reached 1,000 per week in mid 2013 under the Gillard government blowing his argument of insignificance out of the water.




That's playing with statistics I think,

You could use the same numbers to state that there were 86 boats in 1999, 51 in 2000 and 43 in 2001, (~12000 people)  while there were only 6 in 2006, 5 in 2007 and 7 in 2008. (~370 people). In the intervening period the boats were still sailing, but being diverted so they didn't really stop as Howard claimed afaik.

Having said that I agree we must have been seen as a soft touch and an agreeable destination for our second world neighbours to offload their overflow arrivals.

I remember being in kota kinabalu while the deal with Malaysia was being  sussed out. One local wag commented that a lot of money could be made by those in the position in taking the money in exchange for those illegals already living out in the bays spoiling the ocean views from the resorts, but rebadging them as refugees. I thought myself that there are indeed some clever grifters out there.


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## drsmith (10 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That's playing with statistics I think,



No. 

The 1,000 per week was real.

Go back in this thread to that time and see for yourself.


----------



## bunyip (11 December 2014)

orr said:


> And what no comment on the half million  Rajapaksa Packer Abbott oiled up threesome.



I know nothing about it.



orr said:


> Or the Cambodian '_bargain_'. hardly surprised.




Beggars can't be choosers - the Cambodian deal is obviously less than ideal, but people who jump queues to come here illegally must realize that Australia is no longer a soft touch, and they may not get the outcome they hoped for.
They're not our problem unless we make them our problem by allowing them into our country. We have neither the financial resources nor the responsibility to provide solutions to every unhappy person who wants to leave a troubled country. We already do more than our fair share.
The 12 billion dollar price tag of Labor's open borders fiasco has incurred an interest bill of 750 million dollars since Labor lost office 15 months ago - we simply can't afford the immense cost of being a dumping ground for illegal refugees.


----------



## bunyip (11 December 2014)

banco said:


> Let's not pretend Abbott could care less if they drowned. He didn't want them here full stop.




Well done Tony Abbot for recognizing that the more we take, the more will come until finally we run out of money and our systems buckles
It’s happened with the UN food program for Syrian refugees – they’ve had to suspend the program because they ran out of funds. 
It’s all well and good to play the good Samaritan but it only lasts until the money well runs dry. 
Our responsibility is to our own country and our own people, many of whom are desperately in need of help. We can’t afford to play nursemaid to the rest of the world, even if we wanted to.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=49474#.VIjXYnvrV3V


----------



## chiff (11 December 2014)

In what way are asylum seekers illegal?
I thought it was legal to seek asylum?


----------



## Tisme (11 December 2014)

drsmith said:


> No.
> 
> The 1,000 per week was real.
> 
> Go back in this thread to that time and see for yourself.




Perhaps but I think you know it's mischievous use of opportunistic data. For statistical data to be considered relevant  it must pass the validity tests of such things as content, reliability, construct and criteria... I doubt the figure you are talking about would be used in any predication modelling and regression analysis. But obviously such numbers were enough to scare the pants off many voters.


----------



## bunyip (11 December 2014)

chiff said:


> In what way are asylum seekers illegal?
> I thought it was legal to seek asylum?




I think so too.
But it’s illegal to pay criminals (people smugglers) to perform an illegal act (people smuggling).
If you or I pay a criminal to perform an illegal act on our behalf, we can be arrested and prosecuted in a court of law.

We’ve been through this argument before, so don’t even bother trying to resurrect it – if you want to think they come here legally, then by all means continue to do so.


----------



## drsmith (11 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Perhaps but I think you know it's mischievous use of opportunistic data. For statistical data to be considered relevant  it must pass the validity tests of such things as content, reliability, construct and criteria... I doubt the figure you are talking about would be used in any predication modelling and regression analysis. But obviously such numbers were enough to scare the pants off many voters.



Just go back and take a look.


----------



## luutzu (11 December 2014)

bunyip said:


> I think so too.
> But it’s illegal to pay criminals (people smugglers) to perform an illegal act (people smuggling).
> If you or I pay a criminal to perform an illegal act on our behalf, we can be arrested and prosecuted in a court of law.
> 
> We’ve been through this argument before, so don’t even bother trying to resurrect it – if you want to think they come here legally, then by all means continue to do so.




They probably, no, most definitely, broke other laws too. Like being on an overloaded boat; not wearing life jackets... probably throw their rubbish overboard... and last but not lease, not wearing sun screen.


Our Saturdays Vnese language teacher - I think he was a HS teacher during the war and now write for the VNese paper here... he's one of those very smart guy... anyway, during one of our classes he told us about Yin and Yang... how in everything there is good and bad; in every bad thing there is some goodness and every goodness something bad. So one way you could judge a person is by what they choose to see in a situation.

So take refugees for example... they're bloody risking their lives, most likely fleeing from imprisonment and persecution, most likely sold everything they have to get on a boat where they might never see the shores again, most likely they could starve or be attacked by pirates etc. etc.... 

Some would look at that and call them criminals, on the same level as those paying gangsters for a hit against someone... Others may see it differently.


----------



## drsmith (12 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> So take refugees for example... they're bloody risking their lives, most likely fleeing from imprisonment and persecution, *most likely sold everything *they have to get on a boat where they might never see the shores again, most likely they could starve or be attacked by pirates etc. etc....
> 
> Some would look at that and call them criminals, on the same level as those paying gangsters for a hit against someone... Others may see it differently.




Not quiet everything,



> Louis Vuitton have never been more popular than they are right now. But believe it or not, Louis Vuitton Mongram Speedy Bags have been the "it" bags for over 50 years now...
> 
> The size of the bags varies from Speedy 25 to Speedy 40 and so does the price: $675.00 - $750.00, they are available in Louis Vuitton online store, but I am sure you will prefer to buy your LV in a Louis Vuitton boutique near you.




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ed-before-the-boat-borne-invasion-of-the.html

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/07/more-of-shazzas-postcard-from-christmas-island.html

My bolds.


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## chiff (12 December 2014)

I would have thought those bags were cheap copies,as all of you people that have trolled Bangkok would know.
Whilst splitting hairs over legality-if there was any justice in the world John Howard would be up on war crimes.
The policy of the US and its hanger-ons to shape the world to their ideology has resulted in refugees aplenty.
A strong man gives countries stability it has been demonstrated.


----------



## orr (12 December 2014)

When you are _'force fed Rectally'_ as in this case for decades by News Corp, Fox, Sky, You will say do and believe anything. As illustrated by the major contributors here. It's all in the recently released CIA report.....


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## bunyip (17 December 2014)

Ganyeka said:


> I was a registered migration agent for 15 years and a lawyer for longer






Ganyeka said:


> The whole thing is broken and it relies on divisive and incorrect language to whip people into a rage over something that is really a storm in a teacup.
> There isn't some flood, some slavering hoard of Muslim fundamentalists about to over run our way of life unless we act like complete arseholes to the most underpriveleged and at risk people on the planet.







bunyip said:


> A 'storm in a teacup' is it?
> You must be living on another planet if you can’t see the immense problems that countries around the world have landed themselves with by allowing large numbers of Islamic immigrants to come in.
> Take your head out of the sand and you just might realize that Islamists will cause exactly the same problems in Australia, and in fact are already starting to do so. It’s utter stupidity to speed up the onset of these problems by increasing our intake of people from Islamic countries. Especially when there are hundreds of thousands of people from non-Muslim countries who have applied through the legal channels to come here, and have the language and work skills to fit in right away and start making a positive contribution to our country, yet they’re being bypassed in favor of people who are a burden on us from the outset, who want to change our laws and reject our values and our way of life.
> And just in case you’re tempted to tell me that most Islamic people are peaceful and they’re not like that.......I put it to you that most Germans were peaceful too, yet Germany was torn apart by a small number of extremists called Nazis.
> ...



Two innocent people killed by a crazed Muslim extremist in the heart of Sydney, 3 little girls left without a mother.
So tell us, Ganyeka -  is this Muslim immigration business still just a _*‘storm in a teacup’*_???!!
Next time something similar happens, and it’s only a matter of time before it does, a member of your family might be among the victims. And the perpetrator of the next senseless act of violence might be someone you helped to get into our country during your 15 years as a registered migration agent and lawyer.

Have you opened your eyes yet, or is your head still buried in the sand?


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2014)

orr said:


> When you are _'force fed Rectally'_ as in this case for decades by News Corp, Fox, Sky, You will say do and believe anything. As illustrated by the major contributors here. It's all in the recently released CIA report.....




I cancelled my Courier Mail today.  I have had enough of the diatribe, propaganda, political invective, factual omissions and falsehoods they serve up every day. I'm guessing I have already suffered a reasonable loss of individual thinking because of the trash in print and perhaps the last line of mental defence has kicked in before permanent brain fade.

If things had gone any further I could have found myself posting fatuous articles from News Corp to bolster my own opinions as fact; there are so many articles to choose from if you are indoctrinated into their religion.


----------



## noco (17 December 2014)

bunyip said:


> Two innocent people killed by a crazed Muslim extremist in the heart of Sydney, 3 little girls left without a mother.
> So tell us, Ganyeka -  is this Muslim immigration business still just a _*‘storm in a teacup’*_???!!
> Next time something similar happens, and it’s only a matter of time before it does, a member of your family might be among the victims. And the perpetrator of the next senseless act of violence might be someone you helped to get into our country during your 15 years as a registered migration agent and lawyer.
> 
> Have you opened your eyes yet, or is your head still buried in the sand?




A nice piece of work bunyip...you are 100% correct...As you well know I have been thrashed by some idiots on this forum for some of my comments about Islam and the Muslim community.

They sure have their heads buried in the sand.


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2014)

noco said:


> A nice piece of work bunyip...you are 100% correct...As you well know I have been thrashed by some idiots on this forum for some of my comments about Islam and the Muslim community.
> 
> They sure have their heads buried in the sand.




That's unfair on the members in general. There is no doubt you have a passion and an itch you can't scratch, but so might the others who don't share your views. Things that are crystal clear to you might not be true.

Can I put it to you that Muslims have been in Australia for a very long time and have largely flown under the radar, as benign. 

What we have coming into our country recently is a wave of entitlement, galvanised by self appointed religious oracles, a wave that believes we should share our wealth and toil and be exempt from reprisals because it's the religion's fault , not theirs (they are just doing what they are told): a skyfairy "talk to the hand" attitude.


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## noco (17 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That's unfair on the members in general. There is no doubt you have a passion and an itch you can't scratch, but so might the others who don't share your views. Things that are crystal clear to you might not be true.
> 
> Can I put it to you that Muslims have been in Australia for a very long time and have largely flown under the radar, as benign.
> 
> What we have coming into our country recently is a wave of entitlement, galvanised by self appointed religious oracles, a wave that believes we should share our wealth and toil and be exempt from reprisals because it's the religion's fault , not theirs (they are just doing what they are told): a skyfairy "talk to the hand" attitude.




It would be nice if you could your put your case in simple plain English instead of all this fairy floss jargon you spit out.


----------



## banco (17 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That's unfair on the members in general. There is no doubt you have a passion and an itch you can't scratch, but so might the others who don't share your views. Things that are crystal clear to you might not be true.
> 
> Can I put it to you that Muslims have been in Australia for a very long time and have largely flown under the radar, as benign.
> 
> What we have coming into our country recently is a wave of entitlement, galvanised by self appointed religious oracles, a wave that believes we should share our wealth and toil and be exempt from reprisals because it's the religion's fault , not theirs (they are just doing what they are told): a skyfairy "talk to the hand" attitude.




Let's cut the BS . The vast majority of muslims in Australia either immigrated to Australia post 1980 or are the descendants of   same.  Mass muslm immigration is an experiment that hasn't been of net benefit to Australia.


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2014)

noco said:


> It would be nice if you could your put your case in simple plain English instead of all this fairy floss jargon you spit out.




Be nice if you were more civil and less habitually cantankerous, but I doubt you can move past that, just like I have trouble ratchetting down English to monosyllabic lexicon.  For someone who comfortably wears a coat of victimisation you are very quick with the personal insults aren't you.


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2014)

banco said:


> Let's cut the BS . The vast majority of muslims in Australia either immigrated to Australia post 1980 or are the descendants of   same.  Mass muslm immigration is an experiment that hasn't been of net benefit to Australia.




Then it's a two tiered argument then...the older Muslim believers and the new wave Muslim believers. 

I don't believe there has been any experiment, but the day they switched off the turnstyles for technical migrants from the UK & preferential countries and opened the gates to the rest of the pagan world was our dawn.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Then it's a two tiered argument then...the older Muslim believers and the new wave Muslim believers.
> 
> I don't believe there has been any experiment, but the day they switched off the turnstyles for technical migrants from the UK & preferential countries and opened the gates to the rest of the pagan world was our dawn.




+1.

It started with the Lebanese in my old area of Sydney. I remember my mum saying 40 years ago that they would take over the area, and she was right.


----------



## noco (17 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> Be nice if you were more civil and less habitually cantankerous, but I doubt you can move past that, just like I have trouble ratchetting down English to monosyllabic lexicon.  For someone who comfortably wears a coat of victimisation you are very quick with the personal insults aren't you.




Perhaps you should practice what you preach.


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## bunyip (18 December 2014)

banco said:


> Let's cut the BS . The vast majority of muslims in Australia either immigrated to Australia post 1980 or are the descendants of   same.




True. And let’s not forget that the ridiculous policies of that mongrel Rudd, and then Gillard after him, increased their numbers in Australia by around 11% in just six years by effectively laying out the welcome mat to a flood of illegal boat people from predominately Islamic countries. In a different era that bastard would have been shot as traitor to his country.



banco said:


> Mass muslm immigration is an experiment that hasn't been of net benefit to Australia.




Damn right it hasn’t! And we’re just starting to see the tip of the iceberg in regard to the problems that Islam will cause in Australia.

It just about beggars belief that some of our politicians and many of our private citizens can be so pathetically, abysmally stupid as to look at the problems being caused by Islamists in every country in which they’ve gained a foothold, and not only learn nothing from it, but repeat the mistakes of those countries by giving their wholehearted endorsement to mass Islamic immigration to Australia.


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## drsmith (4 January 2015)

We should get another OSB monthly update tomorrow. It should show one arrival from a Sri-Lankan venture intercepted and otherwise returned in late November.

Hopefully new immigration minister Peter Dutton is sufficient to caretaker Scott Morrison's former portfolio.

In Europe, we are seeing how not to do it. Italy under the sheer weight of numbers has thrown its hands in the air (over to you EU), people smugglers have rubbed their hands together with glee sending unpiloted cargo ships across the Mediterranean and thousands have drowned attempting the journey.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-04/italys-second-ghost-ship-rescue-prompts-eu-pledge/5999122


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## orr (4 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> and thousands have drowned attempting the journey.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-04/italys-second-ghost-ship-rescue-prompts-eu-pledge/5999122




And two hundred thousand, Two.... Hundred .... Thousand .... have perished staying at home, just in syria in the last two odd years. Can't see any push factors there... Some of those dead  did Ok a while back doing a little work for a certian '_Jordanian Trucking Company_', Ahh the good'ol' days.........


----------



## noco (4 January 2015)

orr said:


> And two hundred thousand, Two.... Hundred .... Thousand .... have perished staying at home, just in syria in the last two odd years. Can't see any push factors there... Some of those dead  did Ok a while back doing a little work for a certian '_Jordanian Trucking Company_', Ahh the good'ol' days.........




200,000 dead from Muslims fighting Muslims...had these people  sorted out their religious differences, they would all still be alive...The same thing happened in Iraq under Saddam Husein.....Thousands of Kurds were killed with poisonous Chemicals.

One wants to dominate the other.

I do not know how many different Muslim sects there are in Australia, but if there are Sunnies, Sheits and Kurds living here who knows what could happen.


----------



## bunyip (4 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> We should get another OSB monthly update tomorrow. It should show one arrival from a Sri-Lankan venture intercepted and otherwise returned in late November.
> 
> Hopefully new immigration minister Peter Dutton is sufficient to caretaker Scott Morrison's former portfolio.
> 
> ...




Italy and other European countries now realise what some of our politicians and some people on this forum still do not......decisions about asylum seekers have to be made on economic grounds, not on grounds of humanity and compassion. 
That reality might sound harsh to many people, but it’s no less a reality. No country - and I don’t care how wealthy it is – can financially afford the sort of the _‘come one come all’_ asylum seeker policy that was practiced under the Labor/Greens alliance of Rudd/Gillard/Milne.
It was a complete disaster at an immense and unsustainable cost.
What’s incredible is that, as bad as it was, the Greens and Shorten appear to favor a renewal of the same disastrous policy, seemingly oblivious to the fact that next time around it would be three, four, five times as costly as last time in terms of both monetary cost and lives lost at sea.
We just cannot afford to elect a government that won’t take a responsible approach to border protection.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 January 2015)

> We just cannot afford to elect a government that won’t take a responsible approach to border protection.




Which is why I very much doubt Labor will deviate in practice from the same sort of operations that the Navy have been taking under the Coalition.

Having seen what a shambles their previous policy was it would be verging on suicidal for them to return to it. I think Labor will play this issue very quietly, not make too much noise, don't do any grandstanding publicly, but will continue the current policy without much change. 

I really hope they are not silly enough to ignore the gift horse that the Coalition has offered them. Bipartisanship would seem the go in this situation.


----------



## noco (4 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Which is why I very much doubt Labor will deviate in practice from the same sort of operations that the Navy have been taking under the Coalition.
> 
> Having seen what a shambles their previous policy was it would be verging on suicidal for them to return to it. I think Labor will play this issue very quietly, not make too much noise, don't do any grandstanding publicly, but will continue the current policy without much change.
> 
> I really hope they are not silly enough to ignore the gift horse that the Coalition has offered them. Bipartisanship would seem the go in this situation.





Come election time I hope the Coalition will force Labor to make a commitment one way or the other...from recent indications the Greens want a return to open borders and Labor certainly appear at this stage to go along with the Greens.


----------



## noco (4 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Italy and other European countries now realise what some of our politicians and some people on this forum still do not......decisions about asylum seekers have to be made on economic grounds, not on grounds of humanity and compassion.
> That reality might sound harsh to many people, but it’s no less a reality. No country - and I don’t care how wealthy it is – can financially afford the sort of the _‘come one come all’_ asylum seeker policy that was practiced under the Labor/Greens alliance of Rudd/Gillard/Milne.
> It was a complete disaster at an immense and unsustainable cost.
> What’s incredible is that, as bad as it was, the Greens and Shorten appear to favor a renewal of the same disastrous policy, seemingly oblivious to the fact that next time around it would be three, four, five times as costly as last time in terms of both monetary cost and lives lost at sea.
> We just cannot afford to elect a government that won’t take a responsible approach to border protection.




I totally agree with your post.

It is well noted, the refugees fleeing Northern Africa are from Muslim countries ....the majority who entered Australia illegally under Rudd and Gillard were also Muslims.

This is an Islamic world wide plot to infiltrate into the Western World to gain world domination..

I have been saying this for the past 4 or 5 years while Muslims are in a minority they appear a very peaceful group...It is when they have the numbers they then use their muscle as is happening right now particularly in Europe and the UK.

They certainly are building up there numbers in Western Sydney with some 20% of the population in  the electorate of Watson...Tony Burke's seat.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 January 2015)

noco said:
			
		

> and Labor certainly appear at this stage to go along with the Greens.




Can you point to any public statement by the Labor party to that effect ?


----------



## drsmith (4 January 2015)

Can you point to any public statement by the Labor party to that effect ?


----------



## drsmith (4 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Which is why I very much doubt Labor will deviate in practice from the same sort of operations that the Navy have been taking under the Coalition.
> 
> Having seen what a shambles their previous policy was it would be verging on suicidal for them to return to it. I think Labor will play this issue very quietly, not make too much noise, don't do any grandstanding publicly, but will continue the current policy without much change.
> 
> I really hope they are not silly enough to ignore the gift horse that the Coalition has offered them. Bipartisanship would seem the go in this situation.



They've had plenty of time for that and shown no sign of it.

Bill shorten can't even get turn backs past Tanya Plibersek.


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Italy and other European countries now realise what some of our politicians and some people on this forum still do not......decisions about asylum seekers have to be made on economic grounds, not on grounds of humanity and compassion.
> That reality might sound harsh to many people, but it’s no less a reality. No country - and I don’t care how wealthy it is – can financially afford the sort of the _‘come one come all’_ asylum seeker policy that was practiced under the Labor/Greens alliance of Rudd/Gillard/Milne.
> It was a complete disaster at an immense and unsustainable cost.
> What’s incredible is that, as bad as it was, the Greens and Shorten appear to favor a renewal of the same disastrous policy, seemingly oblivious to the fact that next time around it would be three, four, five times as costly as last time in terms of both monetary cost and lives lost at sea.
> We just cannot afford to elect a government that won’t take a responsible approach to border protection.




I'm pretty sure asylum seekers, refugees, only have other people's generosity and sympathy to bargain with. 

If you don't make asylum policies based on grounds of humanity and compassion, what do you make them on? Money? They got none - if they do have money, they'd fly here as immigrants, not by boat.

Economics?  So what economic arguments can you make to help people? It's like giving a beggar a few bucks but thought wait the minute, if I give you these few bucks I'd be out of pocket a few bucks. It just does not make economic sense.

No one is saying.. 

"Give me your tired, your poor, 
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free, 
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, 
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

The French were just mucking around with the Americans with that one.

---

Beside our obligations as signatories to the UN Convention on Refugees, maybe even our own humanity seeing how most of us or our forebears did, one way or another, escape the old war-torn world of Europe or the famine or just send here as convicts... let's look at the economics.

[others can paste that here].

The first few years they will live on our charities. Will obviously need welfare benefits... but take my word for it, not many who faced death, who escaped war and managed to live and given a second... not many would then want to live on welfare benefits and handouts.

Ask those who have close encounters with death... they all appreciate life much more afterwards. Same with refugees. Once they find their footing, they will work hard, day and night... will put their kids through schools... And through them making the most of the opportunities they've literally risked life and limbs for, I think Australians too will benefit.

So you can point to a few criminal elements or maladjusted refugees and make your case against being as generous as we can... Just from my observation, most people that you help selflessly, they tend to feel obligated, even without you asking.

And if they're not, if all refugees are criminals lazy dole bludgers... what better way to raise our children, our national character than demonstrate to them the good and kind work we do to help those in need? Saying we're a lucky and generous nation then at the same time tell those who seek refuge to go drown themselves doesn't make our words believable.


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## luutzu (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> I totally agree with your post.
> 
> It is well noted, the refugees fleeing Northern Africa are from Muslim countries ....the majority who entered Australia illegally under Rudd and Gillard were also Muslims.
> 
> ...




With all these... dislikes [?] for the Muslims, the Fabians, the socialist communists unionist laborites... how do you make time to tell the neighbours kids to get off your lawn noco?


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## bunyip (5 January 2015)

A responsible government should make decisions on the basis of common sense and in the best interests of the country it governs.
And common sense combined with the power of observation should make them aware that Muslims are causing serious problems in every single country in which they’ve gained a foothold, and will do the same here and in fact have already started.
Spain, Denmark, Germany, Britain, France, Holland, and numerous other countries are now regretting their decision to allow mass immigration from Islamic countries. 
Common sense should also tell anyone with the power to think clearly that we just cannot afford the immense cost of adopting an open borders policy on the grounds of humanity and compassion. We tried it for six years under the Labor/Greens alliance and it was a total disaster.
The Abbot government knows this and has formulated it’s asylum seeker policies accordingly. 
The Greens are too stupid to learn from the disastrous asylum seeker policies they helped Labor to impose on our country for six long years. So their policy is simply to give us more of the same – except that next time around the cost would make Rudd’s 12 billion dollar mistake look like pocket money.
Labor is a mixed bag on this issue. On the one hand we have Labor’s shadow immigration minister, Richard Marles, acknowledging that the LNP’s strategy has been very effective in stopping the boats, and he’s hinted that Labor would adopt a similar policy if elected. On the other hand we have buffoon Bill Shorten and other Labor heavies shooting Marles down by saying that Labor would not adopt a ‘turn back the boats’ policy.


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## luutzu (5 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> A responsible government should make decisions on the basis of common sense and in the best interests of the country it governs.
> And common sense combined with the power of observation should make them aware that Muslims are causing serious problems in every single country in which they’ve gained a foothold, and will do the same here and in fact have already started.
> Spain, Denmark, Germany, Britain, France, Holland, and numerous other countries are now regretting their decision to allow mass immigration from Islamic countries.
> Common sense should also tell anyone with the power to think clearly that we just cannot afford the immense cost of adopting an open borders policy on the grounds of humanity and compassion. We tried it for six years under the Labor/Greens alliance and it was a total disaster.
> ...




No one is advocating "open borders", or take all the refugees of the world.

So to you, non-Muslim refugees are OK then? Or none at all?

Why do you think most refugees nowadays, those arriving/trying to arrive to Australia, Europe... most are Muslims?

Beside them infiltrating and planning on world domination by stealth as has been suggested... maybe there's been endless wars in the region since... since 2001?

Afghanistan, Iraq, then soon Libya, Egypt, Syria... I'm sure I've missed a few countries in the region.

Anyway, I've discussed before... a "tough" refugee policy is not going to work, has not work.
How tough can we be to refugees without committing war crimes?

I'm pretty sure they've had it much much tougher... 

I don't know what the solution is, but it need more thinking than chest thumping, we're tough and we'll turn back the boats, the boats are turning, the boat has been turn, turning the boats back works.

That's like solving the homelessness issue by going on the street at night and beat up a few homeless people - you're not going to solve homelessness are you?


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## noco (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> With all these... dislikes [?] for the Muslims, the Fabians, the socialist communists unionist laborites... how do you make time to tell the neighbours kids to get off your lawn noco?




What a weak reply...you really are desperate......Play the ball...not the man.

You my friend are another one who only knows one reply and that is character assassination......an attempt to discredit when you don't have the answers.....sarcasm is the lowest form of wit from the uneducated.


----------



## noco (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I'm pretty sure asylum seekers, refugees, only have other people's generosity and sympathy to bargain with.
> 
> If you don't make asylum policies based on grounds of humanity and compassion, what do you make them on? Money? They got none - if they do have money, they'd fly here as immigrants, not by boat.




So where did they get the money, the cost of their passports, visas and air fares to get to Indonesia.

Then having arrived and accepted by Indonesia, they then may have waited for 2,3,4 or 5 months to arrange a passage with a people smugglers aided by Indonesian officials at $10,000 per head....Where did they stay in Indonesia and who fed them?

They could have flown to Australia for almost the same price that cost them to fly to Indonesia.

So you say they do not have money?.....they are economic refugees.


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## noco (5 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Can you point to any public statement by the Labor party to that effect ?




I heard Bill Shorten say on some TV news program..

Read post  #3001.....another ASF poster heard the same thing......Bill Shorten and Richard Marles ( the shadow immigration Minister) could not agree on a policy....Marles said Labor would turn back the boats....Shorten said no we won't turn back the boats......Labor seems to be all over the place with their policy on immigration.

So that is why I said, I hope Shorten is forced into making a commitment one way of the other.


----------



## noco (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> No one is advocating "open borders", or take all the refugees of the world.
> 
> So to you, non-Muslim refugees are OK then? Or none at all?
> 
> ...




Muslims have just one book to follow...that is the Koran.

The problem is there are at least 3 major factions in the Muslim World , the Sunnies, the Sheites and the Kurds and they all have different interpretations on how to exercise the teachings...As a result they only know one way to talk to each other  and that is with the gun.

So if they have these internal problems why do they seek Western World refuge?

In Syria, 200,000 people have died....Muslims fighting Muslims...the badies fighting the badies.

If they want to fight amongst themselves, I say let them until the strongest group dominates.....It is their problem and therefore we should stay out of it unless it affects out community, which, by the way is staring to happen now.


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## banco (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> Muslims have just one book to follow...that is the Koran.
> 
> The problem is there are at least 3 major factions in the Muslim World , the Sunnies, the Sheites and the Kurds and they all have different interpretations on how to exercise the teachings...As a result they only know one way to talk to each other  and that is with the gun.
> 
> ...




Kurds are Sunnis.


----------



## bunyip (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> No one is advocating "open borders", or take all the refugees of the world.
> 
> So to you, non-Muslim refugees are OK then? Or none at all?
> 
> ...



I’ve made my views plain enough – go back and read my posts if you want any more info on what I think. 

I’ve yet to see anyone put forward a rational suggestion or a viable plan on how we could afford to take the unlimited numbers of immigrants who would come here illegally if we went back to the disastrous policies we saw during six years of Labor/Greens government.
And I’ve yet to see anyone put forward a rational argument to show that we have an obligation to provide solutions to people who want to leave troubled countries. 
They are not our problem and we have no obligation to make them our problem by inviting them into our country and taking responsibility for them. We tried that for six years under the Labor/Greens alliance.....and we all know how _*that*_ worked out!


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> So where did they get the money, the cost of their passports, visas and air fares to get to Indonesia.
> 
> Then having arrived and accepted by Indonesia, they then may have waited for 2,3,4 or 5 months to arrange a passage with a people smugglers aided by Indonesian officials at $10,000 per head....Where did they stay in Indonesia and who fed them?
> 
> ...




How do you know they're not persecuted and are genuine refugees who happen to have some money or managed to sell everything to get that far?

Those refugees without money to afford a boat ride, and there are plenty of them, get stuck back and try to not get persecuted.

Are people not refugee if they have $10 000?


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> I’ve made my views plain enough – go back and read my posts if you want any more info on what I think.
> 
> I’ve yet to see anyone put forward a rational suggestion or a viable plan on how we could afford to take the unlimited numbers of immigrants who would come here illegally if we went back to the disastrous policies we saw during six years of Labor/Greens government.
> And I’ve yet to see anyone put forward a rational argument to show that we have an obligation to provide solutions to people who want to leave troubled countries.
> They are not our problem and we have no obligation to make them our problem by inviting them into our country and taking responsibility for them. We tried that for six years under the Labor/Greens alliance.....and we all know how _*that*_ worked out!




Helping those in need seems plenty rational to me.

Equating "can't help everyone" as "won't help anyone" sounds wrong to me.


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## luutzu (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> Muslims have just one book to follow...that is the Koran.
> 
> The problem is there are at least 3 major factions in the Muslim World , the Sunnies, the Sheites and the Kurds and they all have different interpretations on how to exercise the teachings...As a result they only know one way to talk to each other  and that is with the gun.
> 
> ...




The ones fighting are back there doing the fighting. The civilians who get caught in the cross fires are the ones fleeing - seeking refuge.


----------



## noco (5 January 2015)

banco said:


> Kurds are Sunnis.




So why the different names?

So was Saddam Husein a Sunnis or a Sheite?


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## noco (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> The ones fighting are back there doing the fighting. The civilians who get caught in the cross fires are the ones fleeing - seeking refuge.




So the ones who are fleeing, are they Summis or Sheites?


----------



## noco (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> How do you know they're not persecuted and are genuine refugees who happen to have some money or managed to sell everything to get that far?
> 
> Those refugees without money to afford a boat ride, and there are plenty of them, get stuck back and try to not get persecuted.
> 
> Are people not refugee if they have $10 000?




But you said in your previous post if they had money they would fly to Australia and not come by boat and now you have contradicted yourself.

It would have been cheaper to fly direct to Australia instead of paying people smugglers $10,000.

As far as I am concerned they are just bloody queue jumpers to the detriment of genuine refugees.


----------



## bunyip (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Helping those in need seems plenty rational to me.




Explain why we should help people at the expense of our own people in our own country who desperately need help.
If you're so keen to help people then there's unlimited scope for your humane and compassionate spirit right here in Australia.
How many homeless people have you taken in to live under your roof? Have you taken a tramp into a cafe recently and bought him a meal?
Are you in any community service clubs or volunteer organizations like SES or volunteer fire fighters?
Have you been involved with 'Meals on Wheels' or any of the other wonderful organizations that help our elderly people, but struggle to find enough funds to do so?

Your time is limited due to work commitments? OK, but you still have two days a week off don't you? That gives you plenty of time to devote a few hours each week to helping someone less fortunate than yourself.

Do you donate to any of the above organizations?
Am I correct in thinking that you or your family came here as refugees from Vietnam? If that's the case, do you feel any obligation to Australia, or do you feel that your obligations are to people from Islamic countries?



luutzu said:


> Equating "can't help everyone" as "won't help anyone" sounds wrong to me.





Who said anything about 'won't help anyone'?
We help tens of thousands of people each year to come here. But the ones waiting in line after applying through the legal channels are being denied the chance of coming here because our funds and resources are being tied up in processing the queue jumpers who engage in criminal activity to get themselves uninvited into our country.

I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to tell us how we could afford the immense cost of going back to the policies that Labor and the Greens imposed on us with disastrous results, and want to impose on us again.

And I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to refute my statement that we're not obligated to play nursemaid to the rest of the world by trying to offer a solution to every troubled person who wants to come here, or even 20 percent of them.


----------



## Tisme (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> The problem is there are at least 3 major factions in the Muslim World , the Sunnies, the Sheites and the Kurds and they all have different interpretations on how to exercise the teachings...As a result they only know one way to talk to each other  and that is with the gun.




I'm no expert on these things, but a spelling nazi might have a field day with those words.

My feel it's more Shia aligned to ******** leaders than particular branches of a religion.


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## Tisme (5 January 2015)

I was reading the following link hoping for different perspective and solution (if needed), and it struck me that many arguments for relaxed border crossing are based on the indisputable fact the person promoting migration would not be the wonderful person he/she is if not for his/her forebears who escaped misery. 

I'm sure there are plenty of go getters out there who didn't have Irish roots and penniless ancestors who don't, as a corollary, advocate family wealth as the reason for their self ascribed greatness.... 

http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=42012#.VKpNRk1012s


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## luutzu (5 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Explain why we should help people at the expense of our own people in our own country who desperately need help.
> If you're so keen to help people then there's unlimited scope for your humane and compassionate spirit right here in Australia.
> How many homeless people have you taken in to live under your roof? Have you taken a tramp into a cafe recently and bought him a meal?
> Are you in any community service clubs or volunteer organizations like SES or volunteer fire fighters?
> ...




No I haven't been doing any charity work or volunteer. I did some in HS and uni, don't think I'll be back to that for a while yet. In the meantime, I do pay taxes... that may do some tiny good, and maybe entitle me to an opinion or two regarding national policies?

Why does being obligated to Australia and Australians mean that I have to "stop the boats"? Can't do both? Does being a compassionate person "for the muslims" mean I'm hurting Australians?

I'm generalising here but I think that if a person is good and generous to another group of alien people, they tend to also do and feel the same for another group of alien people, let alone those who helped them and are now their fellow countryman. 

Along the same line of reasoning, I find those who profess to be good and kind, are sweet and generous to me but are mean and despicable to others.. I find their generosity and kindness to be self serving and all but empty words.

----

If fellow human beings are suffering and knock on your door for help, and you then use "reason" and "rationality" like queue jumpers, why am I obligated to help you... do you seriously think you'd then be generous and understanding and feel obligated to help other fellow human beings across the country just because they swear allegiance to the same Queen as you do?

If a person think it's OK to not help one group of people, they will always have other reason to not help another group of people - same outcome, same meanness, just different rationality.

Why should I fund the sick Australians, I'm not sick, don't know anyone who's sick... Why should I lend money to fund this other people's kids education, I don't have any kids, if they want to learn they better pay for it themselves... Why should I pay for country roads, never ever travel on them... suck it up and ride horses farm boy. Get the picture?


Follow that line of reasoning a bit further and if you're OK with leaders sticking it up to the refugees... just be careful the kind of leaders you'd get. For if they have no problem abandoning their humanity when it comes to Muslim strangers, I'm pretty sure they have no problem abandoning anyone else who they also considered a burden, team-mate or no team-mate.

Don't be mean to people, it leads to a lot of nasty consequences... most of which will affect you, your family and fellow Australians.


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## banco (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> But you said in your previous post if they had money they would fly to Australia and not come by boat and now you have contradicted yourself.
> 
> It would have been cheaper to fly direct to Australia instead of paying people smugglers $10,000.
> 
> As far as I am concerned they are just bloody queue jumpers to the detriment of genuine refugees.




You can't be this stupid.  Good luck getting a visa so you can come on a plane if you are from Iraq.


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2015)

noco said:


> So the ones who are fleeing, are they Summis or Sheites?




They're people, like you and me. 

Would you leave your home and come down to, say, Victoria to live? It's a smooth ride, very little or no chance of death, and you could keep all your property with you but I bet you wouldn't do it. Just move to another state and start all over...

I'm pretty sure life must be quite terrible for anyone to decide to leave everything behind and flee... and if it's for no real good reason than hoping for a better life, are we going to seriously belittle that? Wouldn't we do the same?

I'm not saying open our borders, save all the poor... but, again, this is matter of life and death... maybe worth a bit more thought than a quick wave of get stuff you illegal penniless blood sucking infiltrators.


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> They're people, like you and me.
> 
> Would you leave your home and come down to, say, Victoria to live? It's a smooth ride, very little or no chance of death, and you could keep all your property with you but I bet you wouldn't do it. Just move to another state and start all over...
> 
> ...




What about the ones who don't want to integrate, those who don't want to show tolerance of our way of life and our customs, those who have fled a violent past just to continue it here?

Those who have found living off their wits in their homelands, gives them an advantage in a welfare state? 
Yet the welfare state, can only be supported, by those willing to pull their weight.

Ireland has found, the influx and desertion, of opportunistic nomads can be difficult.


----------



## noco (6 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> How do you know they're not persecuted and are genuine refugees who happen to have some money or managed to sell everything to get that far?
> 
> Those refugees without money to afford a boat ride, and there are plenty of them, get stuck back and try to not get persecuted.
> 
> Are people not refugee if they have $10 000?




So why did they all throw their passports over board before being rescued by the Rudd/Gillard water taxi?


----------



## noco (6 January 2015)

banco said:


> You can't be this stupid.  Good luck getting a visa so you can come on a plane if you are from Iraq.




They had no trouble getting into Indonesia on Iraqi passports.

That was not my post about flying to Australia..that was someone other ASF poster.

I think you are the stupid one in this case.


----------



## luutzu (6 January 2015)

sptrawler said:


> What about the ones who don't want to integrate, those who don't want to show tolerance of our way of life and our customs, those who have fled a violent past just to continue it here?
> 
> Those who have found living off their wits in their homelands, gives them an advantage in a welfare state?
> Yet the welfare state, can only be supported, by those willing to pull their weight.
> ...




We have prisons, and capitalists, for those. 

And I'm only half kidding.

There will always be criminal elements, always some crazies and just plain sociopaths... and they aren't necessarily Muslims or refugees either.

Was watching this interview with Charlie Munger (that one from Berkshire Hathaway) with the dean of Caltech. The dean was saying that he observed how time and time again, Americans have this wave of discrimination against new wave of arrivals - the Anglo hates the Dutch, they both hate the Irish, then they hate the Italians, then the Jews, the Arabs, the Asians....

But he found that each new wave of immigrant always contribute and lift America higher. "New Blood" he call it.
The American Indians may not agree with him but then they weren't much for capitalism or prisons.

Then there's Michael Lewis - from Liar's Poker, MoneyBall - in one of his interviews for Flash Boys (High Frequency Trading stuff)... he said how the guys he interviewed, the one putting their neck out and blew the whistle on how wrong these stuff was... doing the right thing when they could easily make loads of money... they're mostly immigrants or from immigrant background. And they did the right and courageous thing because they have this image of an ideal America.

I don't see why the same can't be said for immigrants and refugees to Australia.

No one is suggesting that third, fourth, nth generation aussies don't have the drive or the idealism... But sometime, and I am sometime guilty of this, when we have it too good for too long we tend to lose perspective and relax and take things for granted.

I don't think most who escaped and arrive here in Australia would want to break or spoil this paradise. Most would want to contribute and make it better... and I am definitely sure most if not all would not want to turn this place into what they've left. In fact, it's more logical that they'd work hard to make sure it would never ever decline or fall towards what they've escaped.

Religious beliefs, cultural identity... these tend to weaken and adapted within a generation or two. Adaptation, that's just a scientific fact, a necessity for survival.


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## sptrawler (6 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> We have prisons, and capitalists, for those.
> 
> And I'm only half kidding.
> 
> ...




I don't disagree with that sentiment, however in the past most immigrants came here for a better life, with no welfare system available.
The wogs, spags, daygo's, and pommie bastards(like me) came here with no welfare, yet forged a future.

I lived in the NW of W.A in the 1960's no air con, then dad moved to the Kalgoorlie goldfields, which were no better.

Austraians are being asked to support people, coming through illegal channels to avail themselves of a welfare system we have struggled to build up and are struggling to maintain.

Not only that, but we have to modify our christian beliefs, to respect their beliefs. As if that would be reciprocated in their country.

That is why our society is breaking down, we no longer have an identity, we aren't allowed to have one. 
If we show a national identity and rally to it, legislation will be enacted to prevent it.

Yet we are expected to go to war to protect it? Weird.

Is there any wonder Palmer and co get elected, it is hard to find a difference, with any of them in politics.


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## bunyip (6 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I don't think most who escaped and arrive here in Australia would want to break or spoil this paradise. Most would want to contribute and make it better... and I am definitely sure most if not all would not want to turn this place into what they've left. In fact, it's more logical that they'd work hard to make sure it would never ever decline or fall towards what they've escaped.




That just shows how far out of touch with reality you really are.
Apparently you’re blind to what’s happened in every single country that opened it’s doors to Muslims en masse in the belief that they’d fit in and become a real asset to their adopted country. 
Apparently you’re blind to the problems they’re starting to cause here in Australia. 
The extremist religion called Islam has proven to be incompatible with the general populace in every country which it’s infiltrated, yet you seem to think they’ll fit in here no worries at all. 
You’re a dreamer with a distorted view of reality. And you clearly have no idea of economics or running a business, otherwise you’d see the economic impossibility of continuing to bring in large numbers of immigrants who will be living on welfare from day one.
Given the attitudes you’ve demonstrated on this forum, it comes as no surprise that you do little towards helping people who have contributed to this country for most or all of their lives, yet you’re keen for us to spend billions to bring in people whose attitudes, religion and values are incompatible with our own, and who invariably change their adopted country so that it ends up like the country they came from.


----------



## luutzu (7 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> That just shows how far out of touch with reality you really are.
> Apparently you’re blind to what’s happened in every single country that opened it’s doors to Muslims en masse in the belief that they’d fit in and become a real asset to their adopted country.
> Apparently you’re blind to the problems they’re starting to cause here in Australia.
> The extremist religion called Islam has proven to be incompatible with the general populace in every country which it’s infiltrated, yet you seem to think they’ll fit in here no worries at all.
> ...





Mate, if those who have contributed to this country all or most of their lives and they needs help, help from people like me and I don't give it... it's not just me who failed them, the gov't seems to have a hand in it long before I do.

Given my attitude, do you think I'd vote for a gov't that will cut benefits to the poor or the needy or the seniors? Every vote count, and mine will not go to favour the haves at the expense of the have not - that might do some good right?

What if the work I do may directly, and if not directly, my taxes indirectly help, Australians also?


Before you wrap yourself in the Australian flag and call what you stand for "Australian" and you're defending Australian values... I know a few "white", first fleet descendant aussies who will find what you said insulting to them.

The values you talk about... bigoted, ill-informed and just plain racist rubbish any sane person just don't know where to start pointing out the flaws and lunacy... that's not the Australian values I know.


You really want to help the country? Help the people? Start by looking at where the problems are, not blame people who haven't yet arrived; or blamed on those arrived and somehow still haven't ruin it.

For example, maybe complaint why it is a good policy to force gov't agencies to cut their spending by 1.2 or so percent per year and call it the efficiency dividend - for some 30 years! 

You know how many jobs were cut with that blanketed requirement? How many investments in projects for real efficiency must be abandon due to no new spending/investment from gov't? How many services to the public are cut from that?

Then ask why is it that only some 11 multinationals corporations now have ATO auditors checking their books. What happen to the other hundreds or thousands... they all pay their fair share of taxes? We don't have enough tax collector to collect.. .that's a smart way to efficiency.


So we seem to be all OK with gov't services being cut year after year, yet not having enough staff to check correct tax payment from large corporations... and you're upset at refugees and Muslim for ruining the country?

----

You got to think a bit harder regarding economics and investments.
Refugees just come over and live off of us, forever?

Muslims are all terrorists, ruined all countries they live in... countries like? Australia - ruined; America - ruined; Iraq- ruined; Europe - all ruined because of Arabs and Muslims... No other factors might explain the ruins beside Islam and Muslims?

Anyway, not interested in a debate with you.


----------



## Tisme (7 January 2015)

I remember my Italian mates feared being called into national service by the Italian Govt because of their dual citizenship. I was just pondering what the response would be if the Iraq, Iranian, etc govts decided to conscript our well fed Arabs into the war on ISIS/Israelies/etc?

Bunyip I think you reflect the attitude of many. Our country has had to contend with many ethnics who conflict their allegiances and fortunately many poms went back home after the battle of their lives with the locals, heat and flies....those that stayed and mixed it up with the other ethnic migrants who had nothing to go back to made this place an oasis in a desert of third world poverty that surrounds it. 

I lament the days of migration that required a skillset for a ticket to ride, an asset rather than a liability and families who were prepared to pitch in and create personal wealth by toil.


----------



## bunyip (7 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Mate, if those who have contributed to this country all or most of their lives and they needs help, help from people like me and I don't give it... it's not just me who failed them, the gov't seems to have a hand in it long before I do.
> 
> Given my attitude, do you think I'd vote for a gov't that will cut benefits to the poor or the needy or the seniors? Every vote count, and mine will not go to favour the haves at the expense of the have not - that might do some good right?
> 
> ...



Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that you and your family escaped from a communist dictatorship in Vietnam, and were extremely fortunate to find a big beautiful place called Australia that was willing to take you in.
You’ve lived here and enjoyed the freedom and wonderful lifestyle of this paradise, but now you want to impose a dictatorship on us in the form of Islam. 
No doubt you’ll deny that’s what you want to do, but you lack the common sense to realize that, bit by bit, that’s what happens when a country starts bringing in large numbers of Islamic refugees. The changes are small at first, but as their numbers and their influence grow, they force more and more changes on their adopted country, with a resulting erosion in the freedoms and lifestyle enjoyed by its citizens. They breed at many times the reproduction rate of their adopted country, and as their numbers grow significantly they start demanding Sharia law, and in fact imposing it by force in some suburbs even though it hasn’t become legislation. This is actually happening right now in some countries.

What I’m telling you is not simply my opinion – it’s verifiable fact. Right now in Europe there’s a growing movement against the Islamisation of Europe because people are heartily sick of the negative impact of Islam on their lives.
And I haven’t even mentioned the terrorist issue which in itself is a huge risk to the security of our country. 

You know what happened in Vietnam when a dictatorship rode roughshod over the population. Same story in Germany, Russia, Uganda, Cambodia and dozens of other countries throughout history. If you love and respect Australia as I do, then don’t let the same thing happen here by laying out the welcome mat to Islam. Surely you owe Australia better than that.


----------



## luutzu (7 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that you and your family escaped from a communist dictatorship in Vietnam, and were extremely fortunate to find a big beautiful place called Australia that was willing to take you in.
> You’ve lived here and enjoyed the freedom and wonderful lifestyle of this paradise, but now you want to impose a dictatorship on us in the form of Islam.
> No doubt you’ll deny that’s what you want to do, but you lack the common sense to realize that, bit by bit, that’s what happens when a country starts bringing in large numbers of Islamic refugees. The changes are small at first, but as their numbers and their influence grow, they force more and more changes on their adopted country, with a resulting erosion in the freedoms and lifestyle enjoyed by its citizens. They breed at many times the reproduction rate of their adopted country, and as their numbers grow significantly they start demanding Sharia law, and in fact imposing it by force in some suburbs even though it hasn’t become legislation. This is actually happening right now in some countries.
> 
> ...




It's because I owe Australia more than that, probably because I know Australia better than that, that I think the way I do.

Your kind of thinking is very dangerous, and will harm this country. And if you have your way, will turn it into what you hope it won't be. 

Would it be better if, instead of Islamic Sharia law, we have Christian laws? Better if we teach Christian values instead of Islamic or Buddhist? OK to discriminate against an entire people as long as they're Muslim? Then maybe the wogs or the Jews? Asians are all nice and meek so they're alright yea?

The moment you allow your law to discriminate against any one group of people, that's the moment the country you love is deteriorating. Let that go further and soon the country won't be worth a bucket of spit, as they say.

You think the VNese Communist Party stop being mean once they've screwed all the former South VNese soldiers and their families? Or stop once they've taken, OK "nationalise", all the properties of the rich? Once they can "legally" do things like that, what will make them stop taking from other groups? Precedents are set, habits formed.

---

I've been living, literally, a few blocks from one of the biggest Mosque in Australia. Near that Mosque is one of the bigger Churches. I have not seen any problems or graffitis on the Church or the Catholic school nearby; There's also a Korean Church with not much of a fence around it, no problems there either - and we're in enemy territory here right? 

So let Australia be a paradise for Muslims, as well as Christians, Jews, Buddhists and even Scientologists. Let them pray to whatever whomever they want.. that's the kind of law and attitudes that made Australia great - both economically as well as spiritually.

You can't ask people to abandon their God. But you can ask them to respect other people's gods. And we have done that fairly successfully in Australia.


----

Economic contribution next time


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## luutzu (7 January 2015)

Some studies:

*Assessing the economic contribution of refugees in Australia*
by Richard Parsons

http://www.mdainc.org.au/sites/default/files/Assessing-the-economic-contribution-of-refugees-in-Australia-Final.pdf

"...*no study finds that refugees impose a net cost to Australia in the long term.* Research indicates that refugees start to make a net contribution somewhere between five and 20 years after arrival in Australia, reflecting the different assumptions and methodologies being applied. Various studies also find that refugees have a higher incidence of business ownership than other migrant groups, and that they play a critical economic role in unskilled and semi-skilled work in regional areas."

"Reliance on purely economic arguments for refugee settlement may provide a convincing case 
because of their apparent rationality and objectivity, but viewing refugees through an exclusively 
economic lens risks promoting the idea that refugees themselves may be dispensed with when no 
longer ‘needed’. As Hugo (2011) reminds us, *the prime motivation for Australia accepting refugees has 
always been a humanitarian one*, deriving from signing the 1951 United Nations Convention for the 
Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees. The appropriate place for 
economic considerations is at best alongside ethical, humanitarian principles, not as a final 
determinant of refugee policy."

--------
*ECONOMIC, CIVIC AND SOCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS OF REFUGEES AND HUMANITARIAN ENTRANTS*
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/rpt/2010-Contributions.pdf

"The 740,000 refugees and humanitarian migrants settled by Australia since Federation have had a 
profound impact in enhancing the nation’s social, cultural and economic life."

"Refugees make substantial contributions to their new country – expanding consumer markets for local goods, opening new markets, bringing in new skills, creating employment and filling empty employment niches. There 
may be short-term costs as refugees are resettled and adjust to their new surroundings but once successful integration has occurred refugees are able to quickly make permanent cultural, social and economic contributions and infuse vitality, humanitarian values and multiculturalism into the communities into which they are resettled.

Australia’s refugees and humanitarian entrants have found success in every field of endeavour,including the arts, sports, media, science, research, business and civic and community life. Refugees’ stories are extremely diverse; however, there are some commonly mentioned “ingredients for success” including having had community support; feeling motivated to “give back” to society; and having access to training, English classes, mentoring and cultural, sporting and volunteering activities."


"Refugees are often entrepreneurial as they face the need to set up and establish themselves in a new environment. One illustration of this was evident in the 2000 Business Review Weekly’s annual “Rich 200” list 
which showed that* five of Australia’s eight billionaires were people whose families had originally 
come to the country as refugees. *The efforts of refugee diasporas not only benefit Australia but 
often also their homelands. Outward remittances by migrants and refugees from Australia totalled 
over US$2.815 billion in 2006. There is increasing evidence that remittances are crucial to the 
survival of communities in many developing countries, including many which have suffered conflict 
and produced refugees. These remittances represent a significant development resource to these 
countries. 

*The positive impact of refugees has also been especially felt in regional and rural Australia.* In 
recent times rural areas have experienced large scale departures in population resulting in skills 
losses, lack of local entrepreneurship, business closures and the loss of social capital and 
services. Successful regional and rural refugee resettlement programs have helped plug some 
population gaps, supply much-needed labour and stimulate economic growth and services 
delivery. More generally, the young age profile of humanitarian entrants makes a very positive 
contribution to a labour market in which new retirees now exceed new labour force entrants."


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## noco (7 January 2015)

As John Howard said we ( Australia ) will decided who comes to Australia from where and when.

Australia has an immigration program based population expansion and finance....We have enough free loaders at the present.

No migrant from within or out side Australia have the right to dictate terms on what we should do or not do.

Furthermore, if migrants cannot assimilate into our way of life without trying to  force some other ideology on us, I say go back to where you came from and live under your country's rules if that is what you want.

Australia has tried to be hospitable to recent illegal immigrants and they have abused our system.

The Islamic movement is hell bent on dividing this country as it is doing in Europe and the UK.


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## Tisme (7 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So let Australia be a paradise for Muslims, as well as Christians, Jews, Buddhists and even Scientologists. Let them pray to whatever whomever they want.. that's the kind of law and attitudes that made Australia great - both economically as well as spiritually.
> 
> .




I think it's the tendency for some religions to entwine their own laws with the spiritual stuff that many are concerned about. It is not confined to Muslims and if you were around in the fifties/sixties and prior you would know Catholics had their horns clipped by the great white wave of Australia.... there is still a generation out there that distrust the notion a Pope can tell believers what to do here.

The abhorrence of finding out girls are being smuggled out of the country by their parents (against the law) and practically being sold into servitude is a typical example of culture trumping the rules. Muslims aren't the only ones who ignore the law and Australian protocol, there are plenty of Asians who do that too and "no speak English" when caught. It's not fair on us pioneer stock that we have no excuse to flout the rules.

We are a secular society and many of us want it kept that way.


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## luutzu (7 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think it's the tendency for some religions to entwine their own laws with the spiritual stuff that many are concerned about. It is not confined to Muslims and if you were around in the fifties/sixties and prior you would know Catholics had their horns clipped by the great white wave of Australia.... there is still a generation out there that distrust the notion a Pope can tell believers what to do here.
> 
> The abhorrence of finding out girls are being smuggled out of the country by their parents (against the law) and practically being sold into servitude is a typical example of culture trumping the rules. Muslims aren't the only ones who ignore the law and Australian protocol, there are plenty of Asians who do that too and "no speak English" when caught. It's not fair on us pioneer stock that we have no excuse to flout the rules.
> 
> We are a secular society and many of us want it kept that way.




There's always some religious nuts, and if they didn't do the crazies in the name of their religion, they'd just do it anyway because... they're crazy.

I'm sure we all have no problem seeing some flaws in any religion's dogma and practices - some strange and weird things we'd rather not do. But as long as those don't break our laws or infringe on other citizens' rights, go nuts.

It's understandable the frustration White/Christian Australians may feel about Muslims or other races coming in and apparently either trample on their values or load up on the good life that is welfare. If that's the case, we'd all be rightly upset and angry. But I don't think that is or has been the case at all.

From those two studies above, the opposite might very well be the case. And if my own experience and those I know is any guide, it definitely is not the case. There's something about having been a refugee that changes a person... for the better I think. It's like being poor and struggling early in life - it could turn some into something quite nasty but by far I think it makes the person stronger, more resilient and more sympathetic to others.



Yea I heard the Catholics have problems back then too. JFK had problems because the Americans thought if elected he'd take orders from the Pope... that's quite laughable to most people now. Maybe it'd be laughable to more Australians about Muslim-Australians. Maybe only when the oils run out and we have new places to be and new enemies to demonize - too much?


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## SirRumpole (7 January 2015)

Tisme said:
			
		

> We are a secular society and many of us want it kept that way.




I totally agree, which makes policies like enforcing religious chaplains in schools illogical.


----------



## FxTrader (7 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> There's always some religious nuts, and if they didn't do the crazies in the name of their religion, they'd just do it anyway because... they're crazy.



Not just some, there are millions of them (many who advocate or support violence without committing it themselves) and they are responding to the dictates and dogma of their religion.  Religious extremists, and the vicious violence committed by many of them, are conveniently dismissed by apologists for religion as crazy, mentally disturbed or having motives other than religion for their actions.  Religious extremists must be liars about their motives and/or crazy because religious superstition is basically good and useful and Islamic extremists are no different than other religious crazies.  This is simply a denial of reality to suit a misguided belief in the presumed universal virtues and usefulness of religion.  



> I'm sure we all have no problem seeing some flaws in any religion's dogma and practices - some strange and weird things we'd rather not do. But as long as those don't break our laws or infringe on other citizens' rights, go nuts.



Such a naive view of that the Islamic religion in particular is somehow benign as long as laws are not infringed by its adherents totally misunderstands and downplays the goals of Islam.  Islam does not value a pluralist secular society.  Rather, Islam commands the imposition of Islamic law in a theocratic framework.  Changing laws, society and your rights are very much on Muslim's agenda and you are a naive fool if you don't understand this.



> It's understandable the frustration White/Christian Australians may feel about Muslims or other races coming in and apparently either trample on their values or load up on the good life that is welfare. If that's the case, we'd all be rightly upset and angry. But I don't think that is or has been the case at all.



Islam is not a race and once again you misunderstand it's goals and dictates.  Belittling those who have legitimate concerns about Muslim migration and implying they are are exhibiting racist attitudes in such a patronizing fashion is offensive and obscene tripe.


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## luutzu (8 January 2015)

FxTrader said:


> Not just some, there are millions of them (many who advocate or support violence without committing it themselves) and they are responding to the dictates and dogma of their religion.  Religious extremists, and the vicious violence committed by many of them, are conveniently dismissed by apologists for religion as crazy, mentally disturbed or having motives other than religion for their actions.  Religious extremists must be liars about their motives and/or crazy because religious superstition is basically good and useful and Islamic extremists are no different than other religious crazies.  This is simply a denial of reality to suit a misguided belief in the presumed universal virtues and usefulness of religion.
> 
> 
> Such a naive view of that the Islamic religion in particular is somehow benign as long as laws are not infringed by its adherents totally misunderstands and downplays the goals of Islam.  Islam does not value a pluralist secular society.  Rather, Islam commands the imposition of Islamic law in a theocratic framework.  Changing laws, society and your rights are very much on Muslim's agenda and you are a naive fool if you don't understand this.
> ...




You should read a bit more history. Then onto politics.

Before you make judgement about Muslim or Islam, maybe go talk to a couple of Muslims... maybe read the Koran.

This is insane. So what are your concerns about Islam and Muslims?


They want to rule the world?

Who's the dominant powers in the world for the last 500 years?

Who's the only superpower since the end of the Evil Empire?

If you list all empires throughout history, then next to their name put their religion... I'll bet you you'll see a bunch of Christian Kingdoms and empires on that list.

Are you saying Christian Emperors are kinder, conquer and colonise weaker states through love? The Chinese or the Mongolian or the Romans... those conquered through war with swords and death?

Or are we saying that Christian society and values had improved and are more kinder and gentler now? But Islam had not?

What else is more common on that list? The fact that they're empires? That people just wage war of conquest and grab whatever that unites their soldiers and their people the most? Be that the Christian God, the same Christian God Islam worship but call Allah... or Jupiter or Zeus or the Sun god or whatever... 



So are we done with one religion are all rosy, preaches love and kindness and democracy and people power and science and enlightenment....  while the other (Islam), preaches hate and subjugate its followers, telling them to subjugate all others la di da.



Don't mistake your worries and fears for reality. Just because you have reasons to be afraid and hateful of something doesn't mean those reasons are right and rational.


Don't you find it funny that on the one hand you go on about how great Australia is, how benign and fair minded Christianity is, how this country is so open and so wonderful and the Christian value is mostly, if not all, that made it possible... then in the same breath practically say all Muslims are horrible, some less than others, but less because they follow less of Islam and we should get rid of them before it's too late.


Let say we make it legal to discriminate against Muslims, we ban Islam. Make their followers wear crescent moon on their clothing... are we going to be a better society by doing that?

Then after the Muslim and Islam is gone... who's next? How about the homosexuals (no, Christianity does not permit homosexuality).... Then maybe old and sick people, what use are they anyway right. Then babies... those little cute and cuddly monkeys will burden our system for decades to come. How about rich people? Let's take all their rights and their properties.. .and why not, we have taken more from others than just money these rich don't need when we need it to do all these cleaning.


It's a basic fact that the system of law that treats everyone equally will protect everyone equally. Not being Muslims, I'm sure you'll be fine with laws and hatred against Muslims. Would you still be fine when that system turn against you?

The moral bankruptcy that could discriminate, could blame and mistreat one group can and will discriminate another group when it serves them. Read history, you won't need to go that far back to see.

Heck, look at the people around you... You ever have a good and honest, a kind and dependable friend who is nasty to others? 


Maybe before you paint all Muslims with terrorism, take a walk in their shoes for a day or two. I'm pretty sure Jesus taught his follower something like that.


----------



## dutchie (8 January 2015)

Coming to a town near you.........................



Charlie Hebdo attack: Multiple fatalities in French newspaper shooting 

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...wspaper-shooting/story-fnh81p7g-1227177729494

    Police say 12 dead, 11 injured in attack at Paris newspaper office
    Gunmen on the loose after shooting at staff and police
    Unconfirmed reports the gunmen were members of al-Qaeda in Yemen
    President Hollande said attack is “terrorist act”
    Charlie Hebdo was firebombed in 2011 over cartoon of Prophet Mohammed



What will the West do - nothing (just talk) , because they are weak.

What should they do - stop all Muslim immigration.


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## SirRumpole (8 January 2015)

> Then after the Muslim and Islam is gone... who's next? How about the homosexuals (no, Christianity does not permit homosexuality).... Then maybe old and sick people, what use are they anyway right. Then babies... those little cute and cuddly monkeys will burden our system for decades to come. How about rich people? Let's take all their rights and their properties.. .and why not, we have taken more from others than just money these rich don't need when we need it to do all these cleaning.




So the allegation is that we are waging a religious war against Islam, ie that "we" are all "Christians" who hate an opposing faith ?

That's incorrect. We are a secular society who  dislike people who promote their faith as though it should be a part of the law of the land, and those who come to sponge on our social welfare as though it's their right to receive our magnaminity without contributing anything in return. The invocation of a fictional crusade against old people or homosexuals as an ongoing example of intolerance is disingenuous.

If people are prepared to contribute to the nation, accept that we live in a secular society and that our laws outrank their religious ones, then they will be welcome, as you yourself have been and a lot of your countrymen as well.

I recognise and respect your feelings regarding the treatment of refugees and minority groups. Certainly, not every refugee is the same and some just want a decent life and are prepared to work for it.

 If there was a good way of identifying those people from the rest who want a life of promotion of their religious cause funded by our welfare (as the recent Martin Place siege has shown), then I'm sure we would all support that principle. That is why we have a authorised annual refugee intake where people are vetted for genuine refugee status before they come here.   This is the only sane and sensible way to run a refugee intake system that puts the merchants of death; ie people smugglers out of business.


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## Julia (8 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> You should read a bit more history.



You should read other people's posts properly before responding.


> Don't you find it funny that on the one hand you go on about how great Australia is, how benign and fair minded Christianity is, how this country is so open and so wonderful and the Christian value is mostly, if not all, that made it possible... then in the same breath practically say all Muslims are horrible, some less than others, but less because they follow less of Islam and we should get rid of them before it's too late.



That is a gross misrepresentation of what FX said.  You do this all the time - distort what others have said couched in emotive nonsense.



> If there was a good way of identifying those people from the rest who want a life of promotion of their religious cause funded by our welfare (as the recent Martin Place siege has shown), then I'm sure we would all support that principle. That is why we have a authorised annual refugee intake where people are vetted for genuine refugee status before they come here. This is the only sane and sensible way to run a refugee intake system that puts the merchants of death; ie people smugglers out of business.



Yes, indeed, Rumpole.  Luutzu conveniently ignores the reality that when those who could afford to pay people smugglers were flooding into Australia, those who had properly applied to come here continued to wait longer in squalid refugee camps.  They are the people we want as new Australians.


----------



## bunyip (8 January 2015)

FxTrader said:


> Such a naive view of that the Islamic religion in particular is somehow benign as long as laws are not infringed by its adherents totally misunderstands and downplays the goals of Islam.  Islam does not value a pluralist secular society.  Rather, Islam commands the imposition of Islamic law in a theocratic framework.  Changing laws, society and your rights are very much on Muslim's agenda and you are a naive fool if you don't understand this.
> 
> Islam is not a race and once again you misunderstand it's goals and dictates.  Belittling those who have legitimate concerns about Muslim migration and implying they are are exhibiting racist attitudes in such a patronizing fashion is offensive and obscene tripe.




FxTrader

I think you're wasting your time trying to reason with this bloke. If he’s so keen to sacrifice our freedoms and live under the dictatorship of Islam, and too stupid to see that this is what will eventually happen if we continue to bring in large numbers of immigrants from Islamic countries, then he should have just stayed in  Vietnam where he had a dictatorship already established for him. He doesn't deserve Australia and Australia doesn't deserve him.
Somebody privately messaged me about this character a few weeks back and suggested that I dismiss any notions I had about him making sense about anything, because all he does is churn out crazy pro-Muslim stuff, and distort what other posters have said.
I can see now that it was good advice.
I’m seriously thinking of using the ‘ignore’ function to block him out.


----------



## luutzu (8 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So the allegation is that we are waging a religious war against Islam, ie that "we" are all "Christians" who hate an opposing faith ?
> 
> That's incorrect. We are a secular society who  dislike people who promote their faith as though it should be a part of the law of the land, and those who come to sponge on our social welfare as though it's their right to receive our magnaminity without contributing anything in return. The invocation of a fictional crusade against old people or homosexuals as an ongoing example of intolerance is disingenuous.
> 
> ...




I thought our constitution permit freedom of religion.

So how does Muslims, or any other religious group, break our law and ruin our society by practising their faith - peacefully? As just about all Muslims have?

I'm sure there are some religious zealots who prefers Australia to be one religion or another - that's not going to happen will it? Why? Because our constitution does not permit a state religion.


There are, right now, a bunch of foreign spies and double agents everywhere from just about every country you care to name.. and they're all working and living among us in Australia. I'm willing to bet that you got French, American, English, German, Russian, Chinese, Indian, Japanese etc... all spying on us. Just as we have our agents working overseas spying on them.

Are we going to demonize those Australians who share a common country of origin, or a common faith, as those foreign agents here to steal our secrets and using it to possibly harm us when they deem appropriate?

So just as there are spies and turned agents and radicalized traitorous citizens, there are also Islamic extremists among us. That's just part and parcel in politics and foreign policies.

Since we're not going to hunt down and ban the Chinese or the American or the Indian or the German Australians ... why are we thinking it's OK to do it to Muslim Australians? Are they not human? Are they all the same as the terrorists and double agents?

It's understandable, given the media coverage and political rhetorics, but it is not acceptable. We ought to find that unacceptable not because we are weak and are losing our national identity, but find it wrong because doing so is against our national identity and common law.


My great-great-grandfather was Chinese. He came to Vietnam not knowing a word of the language. He was probably a refugee, fleeing those civil wars China tend to have every couple of centuries. 

Does my father or grandfather consider themselves Chinese? No. My uncle and grandfather defended VN, we consider ourselves VNese. My parents still consider themselves Vietnamese. But us kids, we see ourselves us Australians.. and so will our kids. Why or how do we and many others adopt that and the Muslims or the Arabs just will not? Islam?

If this idea of a united, homogeneous Islam is true... shouldn't we be seeing one big massive Islamic state in the Middle East? But how many Islamic states are there? A lot right? As many different countries and people as the Christian European states right?

How many Christian, or Anglo, Australian will go and join England in a war if she calls? We'd be thinking real hard about it and see if doing so serves our direct national interests... I'm pretty sure we will not be sending the troops like we did the ANZACS simply out of a common faith or a common country of origin - and the Queen is still our head of state.


Those who think all Muslims are united, are all brothers, are all one... they're giving too much credit to Islam and Muslims. 

We all serve our own interests first, and probably last. And that is best served by being loyal, by abiding by the cultural norms, by following the rules and customs of the land you live in. All humans do this, those who do not will not survive or live comfortably.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 January 2015)

> So how does Muslims, or any other religious group, break our law and ruin our society by practising their faith - peacefully? As just about all Muslims have?




In small numbers you are correct, but experience has shown that when their population reaches a certain point, Muslims try and take over our laws by gradual insistence that Sharia law be introduced alongside secular laws. 

Sharia law imposes penalties for "apostacy", ie renouncing ones religion. This is obviously in conflict with our stance of freedom of religion (and consequently freedom to have no religion) that a secular society enjoys. These sort of influences can only be successfully opposed by ensuring that the Muslim population remains below a critical mass whereby they cannot impose their beliefs on the wider society.

Muslims capacity to integrate cannot be compared to those of other ethnic groups because Muslims believe that their law should override other laws. It says so in the Koran. Their beliefs are fundamentally incompatible with a secular society, and any increase in their influence by way of an increasing Muslim population must be resisted.

If Muslims want to flee as refugees, there are plenty of Muslim countries around that they can go to. Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia etc who I'm sure will welcome their brothers with open arms. Not here thanks.


----------



## luutzu (8 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> FxTrader
> 
> I think you're wasting your time trying to reason with this bloke. If he’s so keen to sacrifice our freedoms and live under the dictatorship of Islam, and too stupid to see that this is what will eventually happen if we continue to bring in large numbers of immigrants from Islamic countries, then he should have just stayed in  Vietnam where he had a dictatorship already established for him. He doesn't deserve Australia and Australia doesn't deserve him.
> Somebody privately messaged me about this character a few weeks back and suggested that I dismiss any notions I had about him making sense about anything, because all he does is churn out crazy pro-Muslim stuff.
> ...




Confucius said, when I do wrong and a friend criticised me, I am happy and know I have a true friend.

The student ask, why would you be happy when someone criticise you Master?

Confucius replied: Only a true friend would take the time and effort to discuss my mistakes with me; only a good friend would take the chance of upsetting me when he see my errors. Good friend and good people are hard to find - so I am glad. I am also happy because I have a chance to think over my thoughts and actions, correct them if I come to believe them to be wrong; In correcting what is wrong I become a better person; in thinking over my actions but find no fault, I am more confident in its just pursuit. 


If a person could abandon their faith, if they could quickly and easily throw away their cultural identity and heritage and wrap themselves completely in someone else's culture and habits for no reason than just to fit in... are you sure you want that kind of people as your fellow citizens?

People will adapt, will take in what is good and just and suitable for them, in their own time.

If you want false friends, sure why not. There's plenty of those around.


----------



## luutzu (8 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> In small numbers you are correct, but experience has shown that when their population reaches a certain point, Muslims try and take over our laws by gradual insistence that Sharia law be introduced alongside secular laws.
> 
> Sharia law imposes penalties for "apostacy", ie renouncing ones religion. This is obviously in conflict with our stance of freedom of religion (and consequently freedom to have no religion) that a secular society enjoys. These sort of influences can only be successfully opposed by ensuring that the Muslim population remains below a critical mass whereby they cannot impose their beliefs on the wider society.
> 
> ...




Australia and all Western democracies are predominantly Christians yea?

There are some laws still existing that are based on Christian values and cultural norms. 

So why or how does Western democracies become secular? How do we advance our sciences and put law above Gods'?  

It's not because Christianity does not call for conversion of lost sheeps or infidels.

If a predominantly Christian society could gradually turn towards secularism, you seriously think Muslims will one day supplant our law and turn it back towards religious fundamentalism - an Islamic one at that?


I've known a few Christians who tried to convert me; I know Buddhists who were nudged by their lover and convert to Christianity to get married...  All religion and religious people will try to do that. Our law permit that, but it will not go further.


----------



## noco (8 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> In small numbers you are correct, but experience has shown that when their population reaches a certain point, Muslims try and take over our laws by gradual insistence that Sharia law be introduced alongside secular laws.
> 
> Sharia law imposes penalties for "apostacy", ie renouncing ones religion. This is obviously in conflict with our stance of freedom of religion (and consequently freedom to have no religion) that a secular society enjoys. These sort of influences can only be successfully opposed by ensuring that the Muslim population remains below a critical mass whereby they cannot impose their beliefs on the wider society.
> 
> ...




+1 Rumpy.....It is nice to be on the same wave link.....Put a chalk mark on the wall, lest we forget.

Muslims have taken over towns in the UK and have now installed Sharia law.

In Western Sydney Muslims have set up their ghetto with 20% of the population now Muslim in Tony Burke's seat of Watson.

4 or 5 years ago I posted my comments on what may happen with the Muslim community in Australia and around the world and the moderator deleted it.......Maybe then it was considered racist at the time.

Muslims are peaceful people in small numbers, but once their numbers increase is the time they start to show their muscle.......World domination is their ambition and they are doing it by infiltration and rapid breeding.


----------



## luutzu (8 January 2015)

noco said:


> +1 Rumpy.....It is nice to be on the same wave link.....Put a chalk mark on the wall, lest we forget.
> 
> Muslims have taken over towns in the UK and have now installed Sharia law.
> 
> ...




I live there so I'll let you know when they start to rename the streets and have road signs in Arabic.

ah man, the media did a real good number on some of us.

We, the West, so completely dominate the Middle East for the last 150 years, right up to now and into the foreseeable future... yet we're worried that a few of them will overturn our gov't here in our own backyard.


Heck, the Middle East is probably the only place in the world where we could freely send in the drones and the jets and do as we like, when we like. And we're afraid of a few of them imposing their law on our way of life?

I'm not belittling or making light of terrorism on our soil... but man, Sharia Law being imposed on our land? Seriously?


----------



## noco (8 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I live there so I'll let you know when they start to rename the streets and have road signs in Arabic.
> 
> ah man, the media did a real good number on some of us.
> 
> ...




Ha man, they have already tried...keep your ear to the ground a bit more often.


----------



## bunyip (8 January 2015)

noco said:


> Ha man, they have already tried...keep your ear to the ground a bit more often.




Noco

The problem is that when someone has his head buried in the sand like some of these characters obviously do, his eyes and ears are so full of sand that he sees and hears nothing.


----------



## Tisme (8 January 2015)

noco said:


> Muslims are peaceful people in small numbers, but once their numbers increase is the time they start to show their muscle.......World domination is their ambition and they are doing it by infiltration and rapid breeding.




I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know subsets of religion are still part of that religion, so if violence is perpetrated by Islam it's Islam at fault and the whole tribe that belongs to it. I do not believe any of us are in a position to advocate small versus larges results in different mindsets.....it's a lie govts use to subvert the unease we non muslims feel = appeasement.

My bet is that most Muslims get a sense of satisfaction(fleeting or otherwise) seeing non believers and agitators hurt and murdered and I reckon they are brain washed into a desensitising from an early age, using a book as a shield against responsibility for perpetuating the filth that percolates to the top and performs the atrocities.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 January 2015)

Tisme said:
			
		

> My bet is that most Muslims get a sense of satisfaction(fleeting or otherwise) seeing non believers and agitators hurt and murdered and I reckon they are brain washed into a desensitising from an early age, using a book as a shield against responsibility for perpetuating the filth that percolates to the top and performs the atrocities.




You may be right there (although I'm not claiming to be able to read anyone's mind), but I also suspect that if the Lakemba mosque was blown up tonight with Muslims killed, a lot of white Australians would say "serves them right".

That's the danger for a lot of peaceful Muslims in Western countries, the sins of some in the name of their religion could rebound on them.

Of course, there is nothing stopping them renouncing their religion, apart from the extremist enforcers who take apostacy seriously. Ask Salman Rushdie about that.

This religion really is held together by violence and coercion, and I'm starting to believe that it is "inherently evil".


----------



## luutzu (8 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> You may be right there (although I'm not claiming to be able to read anyone's mind), but I also suspect that if the Lakemba mosque was blown up tonight with Muslims killed, a lot of white Australians would say "serves them right".
> 
> That's the danger for a lot of peaceful Muslims in Western countries, the sins of some in the name of their religion could rebound on them.
> 
> ...




I just googled Islam and apostasy. While it is punished in many Muslim-majority countries, ranging from no punishment to imprisonment to death, many Islamic scholars have concluded that the Koran does not prescribe punishment for apostasy, unless it is done for sedition/treason.

I'm glad we live in a secular society where no idiots could seriously profess to know the will of god and could not legally implement it.

Heard from a doco that the 72 virgin thing is also a myth, made up by anti-Muslim. 



Link and some conclusions from scholars below:


http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.com.au/

" ... Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error ..." [2:256]

This is Islam's unambiguous affirmation of freedom of faith, which also applies to changing of faith. The Qur'an illuminates before the humanity the two highways [90:10], one of which leads to salvation. Islam is an invitation to the highway toward salvation, but it is based on FREEDOM OF CHOICE.


*Punishment of Apostasy in Hadith*

...The following is an example of how the Prophet dealt with solely apostasy.

A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good. [Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #318]

Notably, as Dr. M. E. Subhani explained in his book:
“This was an open case of apostasy. But the Prophet neither punished the Bedouin nor asked anyone to do it. He allowed him to leave Madina. Nobody harmed him.” [Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24.]



*Hadrat Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz [d. 97 AH/720 AD]*
[popularly known as Umar II and regarded as part of the Khulafa-i-Rashidoon]

Some people accepted Islam during the period of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, who is called the fifth rightful caliph of Islam. All these people renounced Islam sometimes later. Maimoon bin Mahran the governor of the area wrote to the caliph about these people. In reply Umar bin Abdul Aziz ordered him to release those people and asked him to re-impose jizya on them. [Musannaf Abdur Razzaq, pp. 171-10, cited in M. E. Subhani,Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24. Abdur Razzaq ibn Humama (d. 211 AH). This is the earliest musannaf (a hadith collection arranged in topical chapters) work in existence.]


*Sufyan al-Thawri [d. 161 AH]*
[known as 'the prince of the believers concerning Hadith' (amir al-mu'minin fi'l-Hadith) and is the author of two important compilations of Hadith, namely al-Jami' al-Kabir, and al-Jami' al- Saghir]

According to al-Thawri, apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. [He] maintained the view that the invitation should continue for as long as there is hope that the apostate might change his mind and repent. [cited in Kamali, as above]


*Dr. Mohammad Hashim Kamali*
[Professor of law at the International Islamic University of Malaysia; author of Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence, 2003 and Freedom of Expression in Islam, 1994]

"The controversy been exacerbated further by reliance on the provision in the Sunnah which authorizes the death penalty for apostasy without due consideration of other evidence in the Sunnah to the effect that punishment by death was meant only for apostasy accompanied by hostility and treason. ... The Prophet did not treat apostasy as a proscribed offense (hadd), but, on the contrary, pardoned many individuals who had embraced Islam, then renounced it, and then embraced it again. ... [T]he Qur'an is consistent in its affirmation of the freedom of belief and it fully supports the conclusion that the objectives of the Shari ah cannot be properly fulfilled without granting people the freedom of belief, and the liberty to express it." [Chapter: Freedom of Religion in Mohammad Hashim Kamali’s Freedom of Expression in Islam Islamic Text Society, 1997]


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## Tisme (9 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I just googled Islam and apostasy. While it is punished in many Muslim-majority countries, ranging from no punishment to imprisonment to death, many Islamic scholars have concluded that the Koran does not prescribe punishment for apostasy, unless it is done for sedition/treason.




The fact that a belief system is open to interpretation is a major concern in itself. 

That 1 billion people don't have the luxury of spending their lives debating the vibe of a primitive social control rule book, but are willing to blindly carry out the same rituals, subjugate themselves to an aggressive paternal governance and bind together like a mob worshiping a Lord of the Flies is very unsettling to me.

And what is "radical Islam" if it isn't Islam? Are there places that have signs that proclaim "Radical Prayers Here on the Hours every Hour", or "Islam Lite Here. Please Leave Weapons at Door" ... it's just ridiculous we have to somehow know enough about an Astrogod Cult to distinguish between the good guys and the baddies, with our own govt (the one we pay for) making out we have nothing to worry about coz we are Team Oz......WTF!

Apparently it is OK for Islam to wage gutless harm on people because Christians have splinter groups that are just as bad, but ignores Islam itself shares the same God and Jesus is on equal footing to their own founder as a prophet. It ignores Islam is a ubiquitous cult whereas Christianity is a house of many houses. It ignores the small numbers of actual God Worshippers in places like Australia where the population aren't to fussed about having any religion interfering with the actual mechanics of society and freedoms. 

And the twitter/facebook/discussion boards, mobile phones, televisions, media in general that the indolent mongrels use to spread the word is thanks to the cacoon of a strident Christian community that is armed to the teeth in preparedness for just such a situation that is arising now; forget about China and Russia flexing its might, when the USA sneezes the rest of us better take cover.


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## luutzu (9 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> The fact that a belief system is open to interpretation is a major concern in itself.
> 
> That 1 billion people don't have the luxury of spending their lives debating the vibe of a primitive social control rule book, but are willing to blindly carry out the same rituals, subjugate themselves to an aggressive paternal governance and bind together like a mob worshiping a Lord of the Flies is very unsettling to me.
> 
> ...




All religion are open to interpretation. Preachers, like news media editors, can select and omit certain stories and passages that serves their purpose.

Religion is one of the tools use to unite the masses in society. And like all tools, it could then be use to build houses or break legs. 

Our secular democratic society, despite some of the flaws, have progressed beyond using religion and god's representative as authorities to bind us... we govern by the rule of law based, progressively, on the values of its people, founded on more enlightened and rational principles - such as presumed innocent until proven guilty; all are created equal and thus must be equal before the law; permitting religious and political freedom of expression etc.

It'd be easy, much cheaper, and probably is safer - at least in the short term - to lump any "obviously" dangerous and violent group of people together. Lock them up or banish them. Not many other act could show our "strength" as well as frightened and make examples to our enemies than the ability and willingness to collectively punish at will. Heck, the First Emperor of China, whenever there's an attempt on his life anywhere he'd ordered the execution of every man, woman and child within a ten mile radius. His dynasty did not last very long.

That's not strength. Strength is to do the right thing, to think things clearly and carefully, to live up to your ideals in the face of potential danger. Doing the right thing was never meant to be easy.

Anyway...


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## Tisme (9 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> All religion are open to interpretation...




I don't think of the non seculars here would have truck with that. But for some reason it's used as excuse to commit harm to others, as if no other option but religious servitude is available to man. 

I put religious instruction way down the list of priorities, although I do give credit due for the influence in codifying our laws to embrace freedom of the human spirit and respect to our fellow (good) man. I would suspect our constitution may well have principled itself on the Anglican religion, but that doesn't mean clauses weren't included to make sure the voodoo bits were written out in favour of free will.


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## orr (10 January 2015)

_by an American and published in The New York Times Magazine. The Kabul-based journalist Luke Mogelson and a cameraman managed to disguise themselves as refugees from Georgia and joined a group of asylum-seekers travelling to Indonesia, who suffered dreadful privations there and managed, after several attempts, to board a leaking vessel bound for Christmas Island. Mogelson's account of the suffering endured by these people is among the most vivid and painful things I have read this year. And when, back in Kabul, Mogelson told a would-be refugee that he's likely to end up among the horrors of Nauru or Manus Island, the other shrugged: "At least there you have a chance. At least there is a possibility"._

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...the-reader-20150101-12ges4.html#ixzz3OOQZBZ1N

Some know a little more of the Refugee experience than others.

Germany, I'm reliably informed, took in Two Hundred thousand.* two... Hundred... Thousand* refugee's in 2014 calendar year.


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## bunyip (11 January 2015)

orr said:


> Germany, I'm reliably informed, took in Two Hundred thousand.* two... Hundred... Thousand* refugee's in 2014 calendar year.



If that’s correct, then more fool Germany!
Most of their refugee intake would have been from Islamic countries. Germany is already experiencing significant problems from Islam, and there’s a growing protest movement among Germans concerned about the ever increasing Islamisation of their country.
Germany will end up in the same boat as France unless they start being a lot more selective in their migrant intake – as will other countries including us.


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## Calliope (11 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Germany will end up in the same boat as France unless they start being a lot more selective in their migrant intake – as will other countries including us.




It's too late now bunyip. The enemy within is now firmly entrenched in Western Europe and here...and there are more coming.



> 600,000 migrants are lined up along North African coast and ready to enter Europe this summer warns Italy
> Several hundred thousand migrants set to enter Europe, Italy warns
> 'Up to 600,000 ready to set sail' from North Africa this summer
> Of the 40,000 who crossed into Europe last year, *20 per cent came to UK*




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Europe-summer-warns-Italy.html#ixzz3OTB6j1rQ


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## Tisme (11 January 2015)

Julia said:


> They are the people we want as new Australians.




I think a fundamental scalar attitude that pervaded Australia right up to the age of enlightenment (post Menzies) was the notion that anyone who came here better assimilate, don't talk yourself up,  better have a not too dissimilar core value system we already had, better defend our nation in face of criticism.

The people I want here are the ones that value a fresh start and are open to allowing their kids the joys of a dogma free upbringing. The same people who allow luutzu the right to his own uncalibrated opinions


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## bunyip (11 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> It's too late now bunyip. The enemy within is now firmly entrenched in Western Europe and here...and there are more coming.
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Europe-summer-warns-Italy.html#ixzz3OTB6j1rQ




Unfortunately Calliope, what you say is correct. But maybe we can at least slow the Islamisation process down a little by being very selective in who we allow into our country from here on. 
I’ve been saying for at least the last 15 years that we’ll live to regret allowing Islam to gain a foothold in our country. Regrettably I’m being proven right. It just about beggars belief that we still have many very naÃ¯ve people including the left side of politics who want to substantially increase the number of Islamic immigrants to Australia.


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## bunyip (12 January 2015)

Sorry....couldn't resist. 

_News flash....
The Australian Navy intercepted a boatload of people off the coast of Darwin today 

This placed the Navy in an awkward position, as the boat was not heading to, 
but away from Australia, towards Indonesia. 

Another surprise finding was that the boat was loaded with 

Aussies who were all seniors of pension age. 

Their claim was that they were trying to get to Indonesia so as to be able to 
return to Australia as illegal immigrants and therefore be entitled to far more 
benefits than they were receiving as legitimate Australian pensioners. 

The Navy it is believed gave them food, water and fuel and assisted them on their journey. 

We are booking on the next boat out. 

Let me know if you want to come. 

ALL THE BEST AND REMEMBER YOU HAVE TO BE OVER 65 ! 
_


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## Tisme (12 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I thought our constitution permit freedom of religion.
> 
> .




Only if it's in the majority community good. 


"_4.23 In recent years, the High Court has demonstrated a general trend towards
greater awareness of human rights in a number of recent decisions.
Despite this, the wording of s. 116, nonetheless, remains limited in scope.
Alone, it does not amount to a constitutional guarantee of the right to
freedom of religion and belief.
24
Extending the scope of Section 116
4.24 In recent years, there have been suggestions that the negative protections
in the Constitution should be supplemented by legislation to achieve
greater positive protection.  The High Court has not proved eager to
extend interpretations of s. 116 in this way.  Examining cases in which it
has considered s. 116, Michael Hogan argued that:
25
All the indications are that s. 116 imposes scarcely any restraint on
a determined Commonwealth Government and offers virtually no
guarantee of religious freedom or equality to the churches.
26
and that,
Religious freedom has a value in the Commonwealth constitution
only in so far as the practise of such freedom does not offend
against the accustomed community rights of other Australians.
That this is the exact opposite of what could be expected from a
provision guaranteeing religious freedom against the ‘tyranny of
the majority’ has not concerned the High Court.
27
4.25 Similarly, Stephen McLeish argued that s. 116 needs to be made more
coherent, particularly by developing a reading which pays greater
attention to civil rights rather than legislative power.
28
4.26 Some academics have argued that the most obvious addition would be to
extend the operation of s. 116 to the States. "_
http://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary...es_committees?url=jfadt/religion/relchap4.pdf


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2015)

Tisme said:
			
		

> and that,
> Religious freedom has a value in the Commonwealth constitution
> only in so far as the practise of such freedom does not offend
> against the accustomed community rights of other Australians.
> ...




All very sensible. After all satanism could be regarded as a religion, and we don't really want people to have the right to practise human sacrifice and similar do we ?


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## Calliope (12 January 2015)

The only present day religion, that I know of, that supports human sacrifices to an imaginary god is Islamism...in fact they shout "Abu Akbar" when doing the killing.


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## Tisme (12 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> The only present day religion, that I know of, that supports human sacrifices to an imaginary god is Islamism...in fact they shout "Abu Akbar" when doing the killing.




Apart from Gary Ablett Snr, are their unimagined Gods?! I've been looking for a real life deity, but been making do with his facebook interface instead https://www.facebook.com/TheGoodLordAbove

I was also wondering how many of those young Islamists who have gone off to the middle east for mass murder adventure have actually been spirited away by the west to places unknown, the ones who seem to slip through customs with ease and nobody gets the blame.


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## bunyip (12 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I thought our constitution permit freedom of religion.






Tisme said:


> Only if it's in the majority community good.




Only a brain dead idiot would consider the poisonous dictatorship of Islam to be in the majority community good.


----------



## bunyip (12 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> Apart from Gary Ablett Snr, are their unimagined Gods?!




Tisme

Is there any chance that you could write coherently? 
If you can't, maybe you should get help from someone who can.
Perhaps it would help if you proof read your posts before sending.


----------



## luutzu (12 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> Only if it's in the majority community good.
> 
> 
> "_4.23 In recent years, the High Court has demonstrated a general trend towards
> ...




I think that's fair enough. Reasonable.


----------



## luutzu (12 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Only a brain dead idiot would consider the poisonous dictatorship of Islam to be in the majority community good.




I think we all agree that dictatorship of anyone, from any source, is never good. Hence, one of the best thing in our system of gov't is the separation of powers - absolute power abuse absolutely and all that.

But to think that Islam is tyrannical, harsh and unforgiving while other religion are more enlightened... that's not really thinking at all. That's those feelings in the gut one feels after having digested propaganda and opinions masquerading as News.


----------



## Tisme (12 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Tisme
> 
> Is there any chance that you could write coherently?
> If you can't, maybe you should get help from someone who can.
> Perhaps it would help if you proof read your posts before sending.




You want me to dumb it down? You posted about an imaginary God, I was asking about the God that isn't imaginary.....


----------



## bunyip (12 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> You want me to dumb it down?




No thanks - it already looks dumb enough due to your use of the word 'their' when you should have used the word 'there'.



Tisme said:


> You posted about an imaginary God, I was asking about the God that isn't imaginary.....




No I did not, but if you think I did then please quote the post number you're referring to.


----------



## Tisme (12 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> No thanks - it already looks dumb enough due to your use of the word 'their' when you should have used the word 'there'.
> 
> 
> 
> No I did not, but if you think I did then please quote the post number you're referring to.




Fair point, my bad about the OP (actually Calliope). The there/their brain farts you can live with I'm sure


----------



## bunyip (12 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> Fair point, my bad about the OP (actually Calliope). The there/their brain farts you can live with I'm sure




Yes, I’m sure I can live with that.....if those are the worst crimes you commit then you can’t be a bad bloke. Couldn’t resist having a dig at you though.....I’m sure you’ll do the same to me if or when the opportunity presents itself.


----------



## bunyip (12 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> But to think that Islam is tyrannical, harsh and unforgiving while other religion are more enlightened... that's not really thinking at all.




The people who are ‘not really thinking at all’ are the ones who are in denial about the problems that Islam has caused in every single country in which it's gained a foothold.


----------



## drsmith (15 January 2015)

Asylum seekers on Manus Island have been quick to test the resolve of the new immigration minister,



> "Take us to Australia please or we will die here.
> 
> "Please hear us Mr Peter Dutton. We know you are different, not cruel."




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...utton-to-show-compassion-20150115-12qtor.html


----------



## luutzu (15 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> The people who are ‘not really thinking at all’ are the ones who are in denial about the problems that Islam has caused in every single country in which it's gained a foothold.




The world was at peace before Islam, and it is only after Islam that the world had known war and conflicts and all that terrorist stuff. Right?

I mean, the Roman love every barbarians it imposed its will on, love the Gauls so much Caesar sent about 1/3 of them to their maker early.

The Christian kingdoms of Europe... all love and no poverty or any such things before the Muslims arrived.


Must be nice to see things that way. Simple, straight forward, good is what we do evil is what they do.


----------



## bunyip (15 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> The world was at peace before Islam, and it is only after Islam that the world had known war and conflicts and all that terrorist stuff. Right?
> 
> I mean, the Roman love every barbarians it imposed its will on, love the Gauls so much Caesar sent about 1/3 of them to their maker early.
> 
> ...




As usual, you distort things by implying that people said or think things that they didn’t actually say or think. You do it all the time on this forum. Nobody on here has suggested there was peace in the world before Islam. Nobody on here has said the Romans were nice people.
We’re not talking about what any other mob did prior to now, we’re talking about what effect the scourge of Islam is having on the world *right now*.
If you want to deny that Islam is causing serious problems *right now* in every single country in which it’s established a foothold, and is starting to cause serious problems right here in Australia, then you’re a naive fool who needs to take your head out of the sand and get in touch with reality.


----------



## bunyip (15 January 2015)

The comments below are said to be from the Wall Street Journal following the terrorist attacks in France.
There's a lot of truth in them no matter where they're from.



The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim 
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims 
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim 
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim 
The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims 
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims 
The Bafi Nightclub Bombers were Muslims 
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims 
The Moscow Theatre Attackers were Muslims 
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims 
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims 
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims 
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims 
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims 
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Muslims 
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims 
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims 
The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims 
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims 
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims 
The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims 
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims 
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims 
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims 
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims'


Think of it:

Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem

Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM

**********SO THIS LED TO *****************

They’re not happy in Gaza  
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan

******** So, where are they happy? **********

They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic!




And who do they blame....

Not Islam... 
Not their leadership... 
Not themselves... 
THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!! 

And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries

they came from where they were unhappy!


Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS : AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
CAIR:  AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
AND A LOT MORE !!!!!!!

Just an observation.......


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2015)

> Just an observation.......




You must read the same stuff noco does



Yep, there are a lot of bad Muslim people around. May be some good ones too, I don't know I rarely meet any.

Why we have to supply prayer rooms at airports though I don't really know. It's not our fault they have to pray 5 times a day. Maybe they should work their travel arrangements around their religious observances.


----------



## luutzu (15 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> As usual, you distort things by implying that people said or think things that they didn’t actually say or think. You do it all the time on this forum. Nobody on here has suggested there was peace in the world before Islam. Nobody on here has said the Romans were nice people.
> We’re not talking about what any other mob did prior to now, we’re talking about what effect the scourge of Islam is having on the world *right now*.
> If you want to deny that Islam is causing serious problems *right now* in every single country in which it’s established a foothold, and is starting to cause serious problems right here in Australia, then you’re a naive fool who needs to take your head out of the sand and get in touch with reality.




Wars and conflicts happen. It happen because each side's interests does not align.

To put religion as the cause of the current conflict in the Middle East is a bit too naive and way too much ignorance of current affairs and historical context.

Take our debates. Are we debating on opposite sides because you're an Australian and I am not? You're a Catholic and White (i'm assuming) and I am not?  Maybe we're not agreeing because we have different perspective, read different books and see the world differently... race or religion or age... these factors are also different between you and I, but are they the cause of our debates?

So why is it that when a Muslim does something (bad) it's Islam, but when a Muslim does not do bad, or do some good, it's not Islam but it's... Western value influencing those Muslims?


And I did not put words in your mouth. You really got to think things through and understand the implications of what you're saying. I just flesh out what you're implying.


So Muslims causes terror and unemployment and bad stuff wherever they go... Firstly, you got statistics to back that up? No. But for argument's sake let say that that's true. How do you know it's not other factors about these nasty Muslims that cause the terror, what made you think it's all just Islam?

Let say you're a Catholic. Are all your actions based on the teachings of the Bible and Jesus Christ? Or the Pope?
Do you dislike Muslims because Jesus told you or it's written somewhere or some priests lecture it?


As I've said before, I'm not denying that the terrorists we're talking about are not motivated or influenced by Islam to some extend... but If you look a bit closer, maybe the part of Islam that motivates and drove them to acts of terror against us is not that Islam is evil and tell all its followers to kill, but that the terrorists see their religion, their faith and their "brothers" being insulted and whatever other injustices they see or perceived... and from that they wage war (Jihad, Holy War) on us - their enemies.


The Zionist Jews have done it against British interests in Palestine - are we to say Judaism is evil and what not? The Christian American rebels commit terrorism against the Brits during the revolutionary war... these current Arab Muslims are waging war against us and our interests... maybe Islam is not the cause, but one of the tools and weapons they could use.

So kick Islam and treat all your fellow Australians of Islamic faith if it makes you feel safe... I'm sure better minds in charge of our security know the difference.


----------



## Julia (15 January 2015)

> Let say you're a Catholic. Are all your actions based on the teachings of the Bible and Jesus Christ? Or the Pope?



Do you ever actually read what other members write?  Bunyip has stated many times, including very recently on this thread, that he has no belief in any religion.  And he has elaborated on this to emphasise his belief that it absolutely does not take any sort of religious influence to be a good and decent person.

You say that you 'flesh out' what others have said.    In reality you frequently draw conclusions which in no way represent what that person has said.


----------



## luutzu (15 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Do you ever actually read what other members write?  Bunyip has stated many times, including very recently on this thread, that he has no belief in any religion.  And he has elaborated on this to emphasise his belief that it absolutely does not take any sort of religious influence to be a good and decent person.
> 
> You say that you 'flesh out' what others have said.    In reality you frequently draw conclusions which in no way represent what that person has said.




In post #3078, he cut/paste "observations" about Muslims being a problem when living  with any other religion/country...; "observation" that this and that terrorists are Muslims... 

What conclusion did he drew from that? Muslims and Islam are just as equally guilty as other races/culture/religion?  I doubt that.

Was that his only post about how horrible Muslims and Islam is?

So to answer your question, I do read people's post when I reply to them.



Do people really need to defend an entire religion, an entire people now? This day and age, in Australia?


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## drsmith (15 January 2015)

When it comes to any country managing asylum policy, it doesn't matter if they're Muslim or from Mars. This is not an issue of religion.

Every sovereign nation has a responsibility to ensure it is in control of its immigration intake and not outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations whether it be for politically ideological purposes and/or misplaced compassion. We currently have a government in Australia that understands that while Europe will learn the hard way.

It's only from that position of control that a nation can reasonably discuss the volume and nature of asylum intake.


----------



## Bintang (15 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> But to think that Islam is tyrannical, harsh and unforgiving while other religion are more enlightened... that's not really thinking at all. That's those feelings in the gut one feels after having digested propaganda and opinions masquerading as News.




*Ayatollah Khomeini* was clearly one of those people who does not really think because he said:

“Those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. *Those who say this are witless*”



luutzu said:


> Do people really need to defend an entire religion, an entire people now? This day and age, in Australia?




Yes they do because Islam is not a religion it is an ideology and we are being deceived.


----------



## luutzu (15 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> When it comes to any country managing asylum policy, it doesn't matter if they're Muslim or from Mars. This is not an issue of religion.
> 
> Every sovereign nation has a responsibility to ensure it is in control of its immigration intake and not outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations whether it be for politically ideological purposes and/or misplaced compassion. We currently have a government in Australia that understands that while Europe will learn the hard way.
> 
> It's only from that position of control that a nation can reasonably discuss the volume and nature of asylum intake.




So Europe is suffering and going broke because of (Muslim) refugees? That and Muslim residents causing trouble?

I heard that their Austerity Measures play some part the current economic decline. You know, Keynesian economics worked so well before why risk it working again this time round.


Anyway, funny how to poor and the minority are always the first to get beaten up whenever there's economic troubles. No one seem to think for a second that if the poor and migrants are having it so good, they won't be so poor and be your punching bag.


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## luutzu (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> *Ayatollah Khomeini* was clearly one of those people who does not really think because he said:
> 
> “Those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. *Those who say this are witless*”
> 
> Yes they do because Islam is not a religion it is an ideology and we are being deceived.




Khomeini? He's a lightweight. Give us one or two from bin Laden. We all know he's the embodiment of Islam.

Trust me, if you know anything about history... any religion that counsels against war or conquest, that forbid conversion of infidels or ban taxation... they're either ignored or considered a crazy cult.


So what do you suggest we do with the Muslim Australians? Set up a couple of camps in the outback? I guess they'll feel more at home since they either just came from a desert environment or their ancestors did.


----------



## drsmith (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So Europe is suffering and going broke because of (Muslim) refugees?



Have you paused to consider that those drowning in the hands of illegal people smuggling operations are your punching bag ?

That's regardless of religion.


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Khomeini? He's a lightweight. Give us one or two from bin Laden. We all know he's the embodiment of Islam.
> 
> Trust me, if you know anything about history... any religion that counsels against war or conquest, that forbid conversion of infidels or ban taxation... they're either ignored or considered a crazy cult.
> 
> ...




There isn't many other religions, that have people blowing themselves up and their fellow believers, to prove a point.

That no one else understands.?

Even the guy in the Sydney hostage drama, what did it do other than to segregate muslims?
What was he trying to achieve, other than sadness to a few people?
Two weeks later, all people remember is 'Islamic nutter', how that is meant to further their cause is beyond me.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Khomeini? He's a lightweight. Give us one or two from bin Laden. We all know he's the embodiment of Islam.




So hearing the truth one time is not enough for you. There are none so blind ……… or perhaps I should re-phrase …. there are none so witless …..



luutzu said:


> Trust me, if you know anything about history... any religion that counsels against war or conquest, that forbid conversion of infidels or ban taxation... they're either ignored or considered a crazy cult.



Do you actually know anything about Islam?



luutzu said:


> So what do you suggest we do with the Muslim Australians? Set up a couple of camps in the outback? I guess they'll feel more at home since they either just came from a desert environment or their ancestors did.




Your idea so I will not disagree. But better still don’t allow them into the country in the first place.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> Have you paused to consider that those drowning in the hands of illegal people smuggling operations are your punching bag ?
> 
> That's regardless of religion.




Never crossed my mine.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> So hearing the truth one time is not enough for you. There are none so blind ……… or perhaps I should re-phrase …. there are none so witless …..
> 
> Do you actually know anything about Islam?
> 
> Your idea so I will not disagree. But better still don’t allow them into the country in the first place.




I know the basic history/founding, read a few snippets and found it's just like any religion.

Do you know Islam? Or met any Muslim?


Don't take my defense of Islam and Muslims as though I somehow believe it's saintly and all Muslims are good people. I just see them as people, like us... is that too much to consider? Too naive for you? Too witless?


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Don't take my defense of Islam and Muslims as though I somehow believe it's saintly and all Muslims are good people. I just see them as people, like us... is that too much to consider? Too naive for you? Too witless?




Are Muslims like us? We tolerate their idiosyncratic behaviour, they don't tolerate ours.
They move to new countries with different cultures, yet cause chaos and destruction, in the adopted countries.
England and Australia don't have the death penalty, because they feel it is an act of intolerance and lack of sympathy. 
Yet muslims walk in the streets of England and Australia, with banners calling for the death of infidels? Blow themselves up for some religious calling, that no one here really wants or called for.

It leads to the question, why don't they fffff off? If they don't like our country. 
Better still why did they come here in the first place?


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

sptrawler said:


> There isn't many other religions, that have people blowing themselves up and their fellow believers, to prove a point.
> 
> That no one else understands.?
> 
> ...




There's this guy, in Texas, USA... who flew a small bi-plane of sort into an IRS (ATO) federal building. Killing himself and i think just damaging the building but no one else was hurt.

He wrote that he did it because he hate his gov't, it had failed him and people like him; he does not believe in paying his taxes that doesn't help him etc. etc. So he did this to make a political point.

Was he a terrorist?

He wasn't Muslim so of course he's not considered a terrorist. But man, if some crazed person did it but is also Muslim, definitely terrorism.

The guy in Sydney I don't think is a terrorist. Those Paris shooters, they're terrorists.

----

With terrorists on suicide missions... it's not done because Islam tells them to do it. If they have our drones or our jets, they'd gladly use those to accomplish their missions too. Just as the Japanese use their navy and planes to take over Asia, then finally using them on suicide mission once the game is almost up. Just as the US/Allies use the troops and island hops the Pacific until Okinawa or some small Island proved the cost too high and the nukes are just ready in time.

I'm not making light of terrorism or excuse it... and I think it's because I don't that I look at it from their point of view: We may call them evil cults and sadistic warmongers... they obviously do not see themselves as that.

What they see, and terrorism/ME expert Scahill said in a recent interview, is they are at war with us and they will try and bring this war to our homeland.

Apparently they've figured they're not going to gain any ground fighting our armies over there. So what they focus on now is recruit or establish cells here and whenever they want, wage small act of terror here and bring our country down slowly.

Al Qaeda spent $1M or so on 911 and it costs the US over $2 trillion in Afghanistan alone - and still counting. Costs the Western democracies hundreds of billions to beef up their securities - and it's still counting. The Paris massacre, 17 innocent lives aside, will cost France in the hundreds of millions.


So we can poke fun at their Prophet or their religion, attack and discriminate against those who share the same religion as the terrorists... but that's not going to do us any real practical good - wouldn't do our character any good either. They're our enemy because they already do not like us, offending them a bit more ain't going to do them any harm... But alienating our citizens and showing how intolerant and hypocritical we could be, that's just playing into their hands.

Call that witless or cowardly or appeasement if you like.. it's just practical. We're not fighting the Evil Empire and so competing in the arms race, the space race, the proxy wars etc. to send them broke... that's not going to work when they're practically already broke and are burning cash much much less than we do.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I know the basic history/founding, read a few snippets and found it's just like any religion.



Do yourself a favour and dig deeper.



luutzu said:


> Do you know Islam? Or met any Muslim?



Yes and Yes. 
I also lived in a Muslim country for many years but that is the limit of what I am prepared to reveal on this forum.



luutzu said:


> Don't take my defense of Islam and Muslims as though I somehow believe it's saintly and all Muslims are good people. I just see them as people, like us... is that too much to consider? Too naive for you? Too witless?




Having a desire to think well of people is neither naÃ¯ve nor witless. But allowing yourself to be fooled into thinking that Islam is a religion of peace* is *both naÃ¯ve and witless.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Are Muslims like us? We tolerate their idiosyncratic behaviour, they don't tolerate ours.
> They move to new countries with different cultures, yet cause chaos and destruction, in the adopted countries.
> England and Australia don't have the death penalty, because they feel it is an act of intolerance and lack of sympathy.
> Yet muslims walk in the streets of England and Australia, with banners calling for the death of infidels? Blow themselves up for some religious calling, that no one here really wants or called for.
> ...




Most of those that come here most probably want to escape the stuff over there.

Muslims have been in Australia for how long? Some been here for hundred or so years; most at least a few decades... and some recent refugee arrivals.

If they're intolerant, the lot of them, if they hate our way of life and want to not live a normal life in peace with us... why haven't there been war and terrorist acts by them already?

Wait for their numbers to grow?


As I've said before, i'm sure there are terrorists and recruiters out there trying to do us harm... recruitment is probably most active in the Muslim community, but that's probably not the only place. Let's not make their job easier by alienating those who just want to live, pray and see their children grow.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Do yourself a favour and dig deeper.
> 
> Yes and Yes.
> I also lived in a Muslim country for many years but that is the limit of what I am prepared to reveal on this forum.
> ...




So you know Muslim, lived in a Muslim country, and you're still in one piece. 

Did you only go out at night or something?


I have a pretty low opinion of people in general, does not like any religion... just I'm an equal opportunity guy and so think all are the same regardless race or religion or gender... Though I'm open to genuine kindness and intelligence when I see them - which I've seen many, but not that much.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So you know Muslim, lived in a Muslim country, and you're still in one piece.
> 
> Did you only go out at night or something?
> 
> ...




Thank you for the discussion Iuutzu but it has drifted too far off-thread.


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## Tisme (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Muslims have been in Australia for how long? Some been here for hundred or so years; most at least a few decades... and some recent refugee arrivals.




I don't know what the average lifespan of a Muslim is, but 100 is a good score when surrounded by blood thirsty fellow Muslims...maybe being in Oz has it's benefits?


----------



## bunyip (16 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Do you ever actually read what other members write?  Bunyip has stated many times, including very recently on this thread, that he has no belief in any religion.  And he has elaborated on this to emphasise his belief that it absolutely does not take any sort of religious influence to be a good and decent person.
> 
> You say that you 'flesh out' what others have said.    In reality you frequently draw conclusions which in no way represent what that person has said.




Thanks Julia....but we’re wasting our time trying to get any sense out of some clown who’s obviously out of his tree. I’ve used the ‘Ignore’ function to block his posts so I don’t see them from now on. I don’t mind a spirited debate with intelligent people, but brain-dead idiots are not worthy of my time or anyone else’s.


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## bunyip (16 January 2015)

The 'religion of peace' is back in the news again for all the wrong reasons.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30840160


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## luutzu (16 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> I don't know what the average lifespan of a Muslim is, but 100 is a good score when surrounded by blood thirsty fellow Muslims...maybe being in Oz has it's benefits?




you know what I mean. haha


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Thanks Julia....but we’re wasting our time trying to get any sense out of some clown who’s obviously out of his tree. I’ve used the ‘Ignore’ function to block his posts so I don’t see them from now on. I don’t mind a spirited debate with intelligent people, but brain-dead idiots are not worthy of my time or anyone else’s.




No need to go high-tech - just block your ears, close your eyes, shake your head side to side and go blah blah blah na na na...


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## drsmith (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Never crossed my mine.



That's what I thought.


----------



## bunyip (21 January 2015)

More fool us if we ignore the warning of this woman.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/justice-jeanine/index.html#/v/3982602485001


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## bunyip (23 January 2015)

This video link shows why it's lunacy to allow mass Islamic immigration to Australia.
Only a fool would think that the problems with Islam in France can't come to Australia. Only a fool would be blind to the fact that we're in the early stages of these problems right now, and the more Muslims we bring in, the faster these problems will destroy our country, our freedoms and our way of life.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/A3YQANdvvbY


----------



## drsmith (28 January 2015)

The high court has found the group of 157 Sri Lankan asylum seekers who originated from India and were held at sea for a month were legally detained.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-...rs-legally-detained-at-sea-high-court/6051426


----------



## Tisme (28 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> The high court has found the group of 157 Sri Lankan asylum seekers who originated from India and were held at sea for a month were legally detained.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-...rs-legally-detained-at-sea-high-court/6051426





I like one reason: "We meet our international obligations and we at the same time have a difficult situation to deal with to stop people drowning at sea." 

The govt must have considered there was a higher risk of drowning on dry land in Australia than keeping them at sea for a month.


----------



## banco (28 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> The high court has found the group of 157 Sri Lankan asylum seekers who originated from India and were held at sea for a month were legally detained.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-...rs-legally-detained-at-sea-high-court/6051426




4/3 decision.  Guess the Government's desperation to keep it out of the HC wasn't unfounded.


----------



## banco (28 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> I like one reason: "We meet our international obligations and we at the same time have a difficult situation to deal with to stop people drowning at sea."
> 
> The govt must have considered there was a higher risk of drowning on dry land in Australia than keeping them at sea for a month.




I don't think anyone seriously thinks Dutton, Morrison etc. could care less about wannabe refugees drowning at sea.


----------



## moXJO (28 January 2015)

banco said:


> I don't think anyone seriously thinks Dutton, Morrison etc. could care less about wannabe refugees drowning at sea.




Whats that figure stand at currently under Abbott government?


----------



## banco (28 January 2015)

moXJO said:


> Whats that figure stand at currently under Abbott government?




Try this for a thought experiment.  Let's say refugees started arriving in ship worthy boats. Do you think the coalition would be welcoming them with open arms?


----------



## moXJO (28 January 2015)

banco said:


> Try this for a thought experiment.  Let's say refugees started arriving in ship worthy boats. Do you think the coalition would be welcoming them with open arms?



Yeah I get the debate. I was after a number. Wasn't one murdered in custody?


----------



## Bintang (28 January 2015)

banco said:


> I don't think anyone seriously thinks Dutton, Morrison etc. could care less about wannabe refugees drowning at sea.






banco said:


> Try this for a thought experiment.  Let's say refugees started arriving in ship worthy boats. Do you think the coalition would be welcoming them with open arms?






moXJO said:


> Yeah I get the debate. I was after a number. Wasn't one murdered in custody?




Banco, you and others can think that if you like but why don’t you judge them by their actions.
What moXJO is pointing out is that the Coalition have done more to stop drownings at sea than Labour ever did.

PS: They will never come in sea worthy boats.  People smugglers put profit *before* sea-worthiness.


----------



## luutzu (28 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> ...
> 
> PS: They will never come in sea worthy boats.  People smugglers put profit *before* sea-worthiness.




Yea, those dam refos, putting their lives at the mercy of the seas and the profiteers... and then drown some so we have to pick them (or their bodies) up and not know what to do to get away with not meeting, but meet, our obligations as... as decent human beings and this UN thing. 

Why can't they just fly in (on a Qantas - Aussie icon) or catch a Queen Marie like all good refugees do.


----------



## drsmith (28 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Why can't they just fly in (on a Qantas - Aussie icon) or catch a Queen Marie like all good refugees do.



The Greens would happily purchase tickets on their behalf given half a chance.

Meanwhile, an update from Lieutenant General Angus Campbell today that demonstrates the need for the ongoing vigilance that Labor could never have,



> It is understood asylum seekers tried to reach Australia by boat over the summer, leaving from both Sri Lanka and Indonesia with up to 15 boat returns, some of which happened in the past six weeks.
> 
> However, Lieutenant General Angus Campbell said there had been no successful boat arrivals in Australia for six months.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-28/operation-sovereign-borders-boat-turnbacks/6053244


----------



## Bintang (28 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Why can't they just fly in (on a Qantas - Aussie icon) or catch a Queen Marie like all *good *refugees do.




I think you answered your own question.


----------



## Tisme (29 January 2015)

moXJO said:


> Whats that figure stand at currently under Abbott government?




What's the score of wounded, maimed, mentally scarred and dead while in our "care"?


----------



## Tisme (29 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> The Greens would happily purchase tickets on their behalf given half a chance.
> 
> Meanwhile, an update from Lieutenant General Angus Campbell today that demonstrates the need for the ongoing vigilance that Labor could never have,
> 
> ...




yes well it's being treated like a football match, with Collingwood the refugees 

The only measure of success is the prevention index, not the cure.


----------



## luutzu (29 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> The Greens would happily purchase tickets on their behalf given half a chance.
> 
> Meanwhile, an update from Lieutenant General Angus Campbell today that demonstrates the need for the ongoing vigilance that Labor could never have,
> 
> ...





You don't need to know Nash's game theory (Russell Crowe in 'A beautiful Mind') to think that maybe it also serves your interest to have the kind of leadership that seemingly serve other people's interests.

Yea sky captain, turn those boats around, make examples out them; sure, go to war and kill those nasty terrorists who's there but will be here to kill me because of my values... do it for the team, treat those outsiders as you would a leeching bunch of snakes and ignore and play around our obligations to human rights and dignity... BUT

But when it comes to the team, treat me good OK; help my family out when they're in need... do right by us, your teammates. What's that? Prince Phillips, the consort to the Queen, the man who live in castles and 24 hours flight away from team base, the man who have some dozens of other titles... that man deserve our highest honour for contributions to our society? 

Sure, why not. One way to encourage, reward and recognise contribution to the nation is to award those born into privilege and does jack all.

So the bad guys: 0; Team Australia: 1.

What's that? How little tax does Apple pay to Australia from its earnings here? Other multinationals? OK... it will trickle down... something's gonna trickle down.


----------



## moXJO (29 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> What's the score of wounded, maimed, mentally scarred and dead while in our "care"?




tens of thousands less then under the previous govt.


----------



## drsmith (29 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> yes well it's being treated like a football match, with Collingwood the refugees
> 
> The only measure of success is the prevention index, not the cure.



If that's how you wish to see it then Labor and the Greens left a lot of corpses on the playing field.

What is your prevention ?


----------



## drsmith (29 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> You don't need to know Nash's game theory (Russell Crowe in 'A beautiful Mind') to think that maybe it also serves your interest to have the kind of leadership that seemingly serve other people's interests.
> 
> Yea sky captain, turn those boats around, make examples out them; sure, go to war and kill those nasty terrorists who's there but will be here to kill me because of my values... do it for the team, treat those outsiders as you would a leeching bunch of snakes and ignore and play around our obligations to human rights and dignity... BUT
> 
> ...



Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?


----------



## banco (29 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?




At any cost?


----------



## drsmith (29 January 2015)

banco said:


> At any cost?



Illegal people smuggling as we've all seen doesn't come without costs.

As you've taken an interest in the above question, where do you stand in terms of an answer ?


----------



## luutzu (29 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?




Have debate this before. Not interested again.


----------



## banco (29 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> Illegal people smuggling as we've all seen doesn't come without costs.
> 
> As you've taken an interest in the above question, where do you stand in terms of an answer ?




I'd say both the current Government (and to a lesser extent the Rudd/Gillard Government) did some really nasty stuff that shouldn't have been done and if not doing that resulted in more arrivals I'm ok with that as the lesser of two evils.


----------



## moXJO (29 January 2015)

banco said:


> I'd say both the current Government (and to a lesser extent the Rudd/Gillard Government) did some really nasty stuff that shouldn't have been done and if not doing that resulted in more arrivals I'm ok with that as the lesser of two evils.




It is nasty stuff. But the only reason Rudd/Gillard brought the policy back in was because the few more arrivals turned into too many. They were overwhelmed by the numbers and they were all sitting in detention.


----------



## banco (29 January 2015)

moXJO said:


> It is nasty stuff. But the only reason Rudd/Gillard brought the policy back in was because the few more arrivals turned into too many. They were overwhelmed by the numbers and they were all sitting in detention.




The current Government did a good job of obscuring the fact that their policy was to make life as hellish as they could get away with for new arrivals as a deterrent against other would be arrivals.  That's why I think most of the media management bull**** they indulged in was aimed at obscuring what they were doing from the Australian public rather than from the people smugglers etc. Although whether the public would have cared or not is another story.  

I certainly don't think their "dark victory" is anything to be celebrated. At best it's something regrettable that had to be done.


----------



## drsmith (29 January 2015)

More to the point, Labor's "dark failure" is something that shouldn't be repeated but Labor and the Greens show little sign of recognising that.


----------



## banco (29 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> More to the point, Labor's "dark failure" is something that shouldn't be repeated but Labor and the Greens show little sign of recognising that.




Don't worry Doc I'm sure that Shorten pragmatist that he is won't put the thumbscrews in storage if he gets in and will ensure that any children that make it to these shores will be provided with an experience that will forever damage them.

Oh and you are canny enough to know that the greens have never had any influence on Australia's refugee policy.  I assume the references to the Greens are just a recycled talking point.


----------



## Bintang (29 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> More to the point, Labor's "dark failure" is something that shouldn't be repeated but Labor and the Greens show little sign of recognising that.




Why do you think Labor and the Greens behave like this?  (Perhaps this has been stated before but this is a long thread and I haven’t been able to read every post).

Could they be following the example of Swedish leftists?

In Sweden the left is being criticized for being self-serving when it comes to immigration policy. The charge is that by flooding the country with immigrants and showering them with the social benefits of their welfare state they are able to expand their constituencies at the expense of anti-immigration parties and thereby maintain a stranglehold on power.


----------



## Tisme (30 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> If that's how you wish to see it then Labor and the Greens left a lot of corpses on the playing field.
> 
> What is your prevention ?




Well I think wiser heads in the past managed to keep our sovereignty of borders fairly well under control, maybe we should look at how they did it:

I'm only guessing here:

Bi partisan national racism?;
Colombo type plans;
Bribes;
Cordial but firm relations with our neighbours;
Retard the economic growth to the snails pace it was before the mining revenues (that's already happening);
Promote the advantages of some other country like the USA or New Zealand.

I'm not privy to the true extent of the problem, nobody but secret squirrels in the circle of Tony Abbotts trust know that, so I don't know how severe the problem is/was.


----------



## drsmith (30 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> Bi partisan national racism?;
> Colombo type plans;
> Bribes;
> Cordial but firm relations with our neighbours;
> ...



Is that how you think it should be prevented ?

If not, then how ?


----------



## drsmith (30 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Have debate this before. Not interested again.




It's just a question. A simple yes or no will do.



drsmith said:


> Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?


----------



## Tisme (30 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> Is that how you think it should be prevented ?
> 
> If not, then how ?




I think your question is really how you want me to propose prevention so you can argue the point ...yes?


----------



## luutzu (30 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> It's just a question. A simple yes or no will do.




"illegal smugglers"... You think refugees all have their own boat or their own yacht anchored near their seaside mansion or something?

Or smugglers goes around town asking or advertise in the local papers for those interested to give them a call... or just publish their timetable and tickets can be bought at the local box office.

Of course all refugees fleeing their homeland do so illegally; and all organisers do it illegally - and they are not going to take risks of their boat and their properties confiscated and themselves imprisoned if caught; so they won't do it for free either.

So these "illegal smugglers", queue jumpers, invaders... yea sure, label and branding does wonders on everything gov't wanted to sell without wanting to tell much, and simpletons won't be asking too many questions if the slogan sounds right either.


Might want to go beyond slogans and catchphrases. And after that, maybe you'll see that a yes or no answer on complex issues isn't a smart thing to be asking for either.

-----

War dance ha?

Am I the only one who read that it's mandated in Australian law that 2% of public services budget are the be cut back each year - regardless? You know, for efficiency; What's going on with the medicare co-payment? Not going to go away that's for sure; How about "deregulation" of university fees? Good for poor kids without trust funds and no connection yea? Risking some $100K in student debt after 3 years is a good start [figures from the US].

Or take a look at how the 911 rescuers, the heroes who risked their lives digging through asbestos laden, burning rubles to search for survivors then to clean up the city, most were volunteers... see how they were treated a couple of years ago after their work was long done but they're now dying for their trouble and needed assistance from their gov't. Look it up... it's a slab in the face and a kick to the grave by politicians who gave fine speeches about values and unity and blah blah blah.

Do you see much efforts to raise, heck, just collect current rates of tax on large corporations? A recent report find potential extra $10 billions of revenue if tax are raised slightly or collected properly over the next year... but probably not worth it though. Let's kick it to the pensioners and students... that's where the goldmine is.


It's happening right in front of our eyes, just open it. It's not theoretical or me scaremongering you.
So as your mother would say, be careful what you ask for.


----------



## moXJO (30 January 2015)

I don't think you are getting an answer from any of them doc.

The Howard government had a long time in government dealing with the issue as well. 
If there were a simple way to deal with this issue labor would have found it previously. Instead they moved back to Howard policy. At this point we seem to have fewer boats, fewer in detention centers and fewer deaths.

 Shouldn't the argument be raising the intake level of refugees from camps. Not letting smugglers earn their blood money.


----------



## drsmith (31 January 2015)

moXJO said:


> I don't think you are getting an answer from any of them doc.
> 
> The Howard government had a long time in government dealing with the issue as well.
> If there were a simple way to deal with this issue labor would have found it previously. Instead they moved back to Howard policy. At this point we seem to have fewer boats, fewer in detention centers and fewer deaths.
> ...



After the criticism they continue to belch out about this government's successful policies, there's a pleasure in watching them dance. It's ultimately very hard to preach from the vacuous high moral ground of a social outcome that results in a 2% death rate and they know it. That's why they dodge the question.

How we accept refugees and the numbers we accept should be separate arguments.


----------



## drsmith (31 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Why do you think Labor and the Greens behave like this?  (Perhaps this has been stated before but this is a long thread and I haven’t been able to read every post).
> 
> Could they be following the example of Swedish leftists?
> 
> In Sweden the left is being criticized for being self-serving when it comes to immigration policy. The charge is that by flooding the country with immigrants and showering them with the social benefits of their welfare state they are able to expand their constituencies at the expense of anti-immigration parties and thereby maintain a stranglehold on power.



It has been raised before in this now very long thread.

Labor I'd suggest is a combination of misguided social policy, political opportunism and increasing their voter base which was ultimately compounded by appeasing the Greens during the Gillard years. The latter is where the numbers really exploded.

The Greens ultimately don't value sovereign nationhood and value social equality through that prism. Accidents and tragedies (as SHY described the drownings) along the way are an acceptable part of achieving their broader social agenda. Ultimately, they hoped that the boat arrival problem would become so unpalatable and so difficult to stop that we would just fly them in.

The UNHCR are a bit like the Greens in that regard and see the cost of illegal people smuggling operations as an acceptable price to pay in the goal of advancing global social equality.


----------



## Bintang (31 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> It has been raised before in this now very long thread.
> 
> Labor I'd suggest is a combination of misguided social policy, political opportunism and increasing their voter base which was ultimately compounded by appeasing the Greens during the Gillard years. The latter is where the numbers really exploded.
> 
> ...




Thanks. It is a pity that as threads like this continue to expand the most interesting content gets swallowed up in the noise.


----------



## bellenuit (31 January 2015)

drsmith said:


> It has been raised before in this now very long thread.
> 
> Labor I'd suggest is a combination of misguided social policy, political opportunism and increasing their voter base which was ultimately compounded by appeasing the Greens during the Gillard years. The latter is where the numbers really exploded.
> 
> ...




Good analysis, drsmith. Pretty much how I see it too.


----------



## albaby (1 February 2015)

bellenuit said:


> Good analysis, drsmith. Pretty much how I see it too.




Likewise,and we seem to be sleepwalking our way back to another Labour/Greens govt.Al


----------



## Tisme (1 February 2015)

moXJO said:


> I don't think you are getting an answer from any of them doc.
> 
> .




Do you still beat your partner? Yes or no?


----------



## drsmith (1 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think your question is really how you want me to propose prevention so you can argue the point ...yes?




You're the one who said,



Tisme said:


> yes well it's being treated like a football match, with Collingwood the refugees
> 
> The only measure of success is the prevention index, not the cure.




You've chosen to be critical of the current government's policies. What do you offer as an alternative ?


----------



## dutchie (1 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> Do you still beat your partner? Yes or no?




That's a pretty poor post in any context.


----------



## Tisme (1 February 2015)

dutchie said:


> That's a pretty poor post in any context.




Nonsense, it's a time worn clichÃ© in any context that is used to show the ridiculousness of some questions. It illustrates we are not subordinate to another's obnoxious demands just because the other says so.


----------



## Tisme (1 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> You're the one who said,
> 
> 
> 
> You've chosen to be critical of the current government's policies. What do you offer as an alternative ?




I not offering anything, but you are welcome to do so, if you can come up with a cure? I'm sure you have something in mind.


----------



## drsmith (1 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> *I not offering anything*, but you are welcome to do so, if you can come up with a cure? I'm sure you have something in mind.



That's what I thought.

If it's any consolation, you have at least been honest on the substance of your position.

My bolds.


----------



## moXJO (1 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> Do you still beat your partner? Yes or no?



Pffft what a stupid question. Shes way to fast for my swings. 
The question he asked was pretty simple and was met with nothing but backtracking and spin. Something as simple as raising the refugee quota at least would have been something.  Unless we are all just shouting slogans at each other now of "Abbott Bad".



dutchie said:


> That's a pretty poor post in any context.




He's just a little pissy at me for the whole bondsgate thing.


No hard feelings Tisme the six pack is on me.


----------



## drsmith (2 February 2015)

OSB has finally released its December operational update. 

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/Operation-Sovereign-Borders

There were 4 IMA's in December, 3 of which were from PNG and were promptly returned to PNG. 

For 2014 we had a total of 163 IMA's. This consisted of,

2 on health grounds early in the year from a venture where the rest were returned to Indonesia.
157 from a successful venture in the middle of the year. This was the boatload of Sri-Lankans who originated from India and were detained at sea for a month.
1 from a venture that otherwise failed (Late Nov/Early Dec).
3 from PNG in late Dec who were promptly returned to Port Moresby.

Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 was 133 at the beginning of 2014. By the end of the year this had risen to 470.


----------



## banco (2 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> OSB has finally released its December operational update.
> 
> http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/channels/Operation-Sovereign-Borders
> 
> ...




Finally. I was on tenterhooks waiting for this.  I picture you as having these plastered up all around your study.


----------



## drsmith (2 February 2015)

banco said:


> Finally. I was on tenterhooks waiting for this.  I picture you as having these plastered up all around your study.



I hope not to the extent that you would consider this government was being unnecessarily secretive. 

It's good to see this government succeeding where the previous Labor administrations failed so miserably.


----------



## Tisme (3 February 2015)

moXJO said:


> Pffft what a stupid question. Shes way to fast for my swings.
> The question he asked was pretty simple and was met with nothing but backtracking and spin. Something as simple as raising the refugee quota at least would have been something.  Unless we are all just shouting slogans at each other now of "Abbott Bad".
> 
> 
> ...




You need to read posts before placing yourself on a pedestal of self import.  I'm guessing you and Dr Smith are actually quite upset at my posts, otherwise neither of you would be pulling your pigtails out in an attempt to garner my attention. Settle Gretills. somewhere, sometime there is a Bonds wearing man for each of you who will make you whole.


----------



## moXJO (3 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> You need to read posts before placing yourself on a pedestal of self import.  I'm guessing you and Dr Smith are actually quite upset at my posts, otherwise neither of you would be pulling your pigtails out in an attempt to garner my attention. Settle Gretills. somewhere, sometime there is a Bonds wearing man for each of you who will make you whole.




It's time Tisme
Come on bring it on over and give me a hug.


----------



## Tisme (3 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> That's what I thought.
> 
> If it's any consolation, you have at least been honest on the substance of your position.
> 
> My bolds.




Phew, thanks for that.! You don't know how relieved I am knowing you have touched me with your benevolence and finding the one trait of worthwhileness in my miserable existence. Thank God for people like yourself and allowing me to shelter beneath the magnificence  of your razor sharp mind and intellect. I am truly blessed and lay prostrate at your temporal throne good Sir.


I await your (and moXJO's) prescription for the poor scoundrels who are imprisoned on a Devils Island, our very own Papillon drama, in the civilised 21st Century. Flogging, torture, perhaps?


----------



## Tisme (3 February 2015)

moXJO said:


> It's time Tisme
> Come on bring it on over and give me a hug.
> View attachment 61422




If you are angling at homophobia, you have the wrong fella I'm afraid. And if you are wanting a dalliance you are definitely on the wrong side of the fence. You need to lose the Gay baggage and just accept your are predisposed that way and you don't need affirmation from the likes of me.


----------



## moXJO (3 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> If you are angling at homophobia, you have the wrong fella I'm afraid. And if you are wanting a dalliance you are definitely on the wrong side of the fence. You need to lose the Gay baggage and just accept your are predisposed that way and you don't need affirmation from the likes of me.




Hey tisme




LOL how did your mind skip to that.
It's time to make peace, not take your pants off. 

Hey I don't have a problem with being labeled gay that's not an insult call me a leftie and its on though. I thought you lefties were more open minded then to use that as an insult. I'm starting to wonder if you have a touch of fear about homosexuals?

So what was your answer for the Doc again?
"I'm not answering because moral outrage at facts and figures".
Were you happy with Rudds let everyone in scheme?


----------



## Tisme (3 February 2015)

moXJO said:


> Hey tisme
> 
> LOL how did your mind skip to that.
> It's time to make peace, not take your pants off.
> ...




Well of course you don't. You have already made it known you are promoter of lascivious behaviours to minors, even making fun of me because I'm not ...strange attitude that you are so visceral about a social taboo.


----------



## moXJO (3 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> Well of course you don't. You have already made it known you are promoter of lascivious behaviours to minors, even making fun of me because I'm not ...strange attitude that you are so visceral about a social taboo.




I wasn't the one to take my kid to a M rated movie, whine "whose going to protect the children" and then cry "bonds undies made me question my sexuality".

Anyway probably a good idea to move back on topic as I find interactions with you too humorous to pass up and will fill the thread with off topic nonsense.


----------



## drsmith (3 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> Phew, thanks for that.! You don't know how relieved I am knowing you have touched me with your benevolence and finding the one trait of worthwhileness in my miserable existence. Thank God for people like yourself and allowing me to shelter beneath the magnificence  of your razor sharp mind and intellect. I am truly blessed and lay prostrate at your temporal throne good Sir.
> 
> 
> I await your (and moXJO's) prescription for the poor scoundrels who are imprisoned on a Devils Island, our very own Papillon drama, in the civilised 21st Century. Flogging, torture, perhaps?



After being able to offer nothing a couple of days ago, have you come up with anything that would be a pass on your prevention index ?


----------



## banco (11 February 2015)

Gotta break some eggs (or kids) to make an omlette hey doc?

A royal commission should be established to examine the impact on hundreds of children of being detained for long periods in immigration detention centres, a report prepared by the Australian Human Rights Commission inquiry has recommended.

The report interviewed 1129 children over a 15-month period from January 2013 to March 2014, spanning both the Labor and Coalitiongovernments. It shows there were 233 recorded assaults involving children and 33 incidents of reported sexual assault.

The damning report is the largest survey of children in detention ever conducted anywhere in the world. It calls for 119 children on Nauru to be removed into the Australian community; for Christmas Island to be shut down; and for an independent guardian for unaccompanied children.

It alleges human rights violations and says children being detained indefinitely on Nauru are "suffering from extreme levels of physical, emotional, psychological and developmental distress".

Professor of paediatrics at the University of Sydney Elizabeth Elliott was horrified by the conditions for children in detention on Christmas Island.

Many had physical illnesses such as skin and respiratory infections as well as serious mental health problems. She described a 12-year-old girl who refused to eat or drink or leave her cabin. "She summed up her experience by saying, 'my life here is really death'," she said.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...used-in-detention-report-20150211-13b10a.html


----------



## drsmith (11 February 2015)

banco said:


> Gotta break some eggs (or kids) to make an omlette hey doc?



How many children were there in detention under Labor ?

How many children are there in detention now ?

How many would be in detention if Labor was elected to office again under no-turn-backs Bill ?

We all know where the egg lies in relation to this and it's not on the face of this government.


----------



## drsmith (11 February 2015)

I could have also asked how many drowned at sea during Labor's time in office but there's only so much space on a face for egg.


----------



## banco (11 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> How many children were there in detention under Labor ?
> 
> How many children are there in detention now ?
> 
> ...




Every child in detention is there due to a deliberate decision by the Government of the day (whether the previous Government or the current Government).  They don't get there by magic.


----------



## banco (11 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> I could have also asked how many drowned at sea during Labor's time in office but there's only so much space on a face for egg.




So we have to torture the kids that do make it here to ensure that others don't get on boats? Interesting moral calculus.  The decision to put kids in detention is one that's 100% within the control of the Australian Government the question of how many people get on boats is not within the direct control of the Australian Government.


----------



## drsmith (11 February 2015)

banco said:


> Every child in detention is there due to a deliberate decision by the Government of the day (whether the previous Government or the current Government).  They don't get there by magic.



What would then cut it on your prevention index ?


----------



## banco (11 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> What would then cut it on your prevention index ?




Zero children in detention (accept in exceptional circumstances and with the bar high on what constitutes exceptional circumstances).  If that results in more boats so be it.


----------



## drsmith (11 February 2015)

banco said:


> So we have to torture the kids that do make it here to ensure that others don't get on boats? Interesting moral calculus.  The decision to put kids in detention is one that's 100% within the control of the Australian Government the question of how many people get on boats is not within the direct control of the Australian Government.



This government has demonstrated that it is as the previous Howard Government also did.


----------



## drsmith (11 February 2015)

banco said:


> If that results in more boats so be it.



It's just so easy to preach from the high moral ground when one takes no responsibility for the outcome. :nono:


----------



## banco (11 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> It's just so easy to preach from the high moral ground when one takes no responsibility for the outcome. :nono:




I don't think it takes a particularly fine moral sense to be disturbed by a policy that results in this:

Many had physical illnesses such as skin and respiratory infections as well as serious mental health problems. She described a 12-year-old girl who refused to eat or drink or leave her cabin. "She summed up her experience by saying, 'my life here is really death'," she said.


----------



## drsmith (12 February 2015)

banco said:


> I don't think it takes a particularly fine moral sense to be disturbed by a policy that results in this:
> 
> Many had physical illnesses such as skin and respiratory infections as well as serious mental health problems. She described a 12-year-old girl who refused to eat or drink or leave her cabin. "She summed up her experience by saying, 'my life here is really death'," she said.



One though cannot effectively address the problem from such a limited perspective.

You stop the boats and you ultimately stop that as well. You also stop feeding the sharks.


----------



## drsmith (12 February 2015)

The OSB monthly update for January released today is a good start to the new year.

There were no IMA's and obviously no boats.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...releases/monthly-operational-update-january-3


----------



## noco (12 February 2015)

someone is calling for a Royal Commission into the detention of children based on a report spanning from March2013 to match 2014. I think it might either be Professor Gillian Triggs or Richard Marles.....I read it today on the net and will endeavor to get a link. 

*Many had physical illnesses such as skin and respiratory infections as well as serious mental health problems. She described a 12-year-old girl who refused to eat or drink or leave her cabin. "She summed up her experience by saying, 'my life here is really death'," she said. 
*

The above high light is a part of that 2013/2014 report.

The Government has rejected the request.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...216895923?sv=bfa3bf0ee6fba41dd4137911cb20539e

*There are 192 children remaining in detention and the number is expected to continue to fall — substantially down from a peak of 1992 children who were held in July 2013 under Labor.*

*During a 15-month period from January 2013 to March 2014, 128 children aged between 12 and 17 engaged in actual self-harm and 171 threatened self-harm in detention. There were also 233 assaults involving children and 33 incidents of reported sexual assault, the majority involving children. There were 210 hunger strikes including 27 involving children.

Attorney-General George Brandis last night said the government was “disappointed and surprised’’ the commission “did not start this inquiry until 2014, considering the problem was at its most acute prior to the 2013 election’’.*


----------



## drsmith (12 February 2015)

noco said:


> someone is calling for a Royal Commission into the detention of children based on a report spanning from March2013 to match 2014. I think it might either be Professor Gillian Triggs or Richard Marles.....I read it today on the net and will endeavor to get a link.



Tony Abbott was right when he described this HRC report a disgrace and biased against the current government.

Any enquiry should include the full period of Labor's time in office from Nov 2007 and be expanded to the broader implications of illegal people smuggling in general.


----------



## noco (13 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> Tony Abbott was right when he described this HRC report a disgrace and biased against the current government.
> 
> Any enquiry should include the full period of Labor's time in office from Nov 2007 and be expanded to the broader implications of illegal people smuggling in general.




Gillian Trigg is a leftie and very biased towards the Labor Party...She has gone out of her way to embarrass the Liberal Coalition...What a grub.,


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2015)

Forget the enquiries and continual cr@p about whose fault it is, just get the kids out of there into foster homes so they can at least salvage some of their childhood. 

The continual bickering about children's lives is disgusting.


----------



## drsmith (13 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Forget the enquiries and continual cr@p about whose fault it is, just get the kids out of there into foster homes so they can at least salvage some of their childhood.



The question to responses from this limited perspective remains the same. 

How does one do this such that it doesn't offer a product for people smugglers to sell or in other words, not encourage more boats ?


----------



## banco (13 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> The question to responses from this limited perspective remains the same.
> 
> How does one do this such that it doesn't offer a product for people smugglers to sell or in other words, not encourage more boats ?




Depends what you value more doesn't it? The Australian Govt not engaging in child abuse or deterring boats.  Why don't we break their fingers? That would be a deterrent.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> The question to responses from this limited perspective remains the same.
> 
> How does one do this such that it doesn't offer a product for people smugglers to sell or in other words, not encourage more boats ?




If when the children completed their high school education they were resettled offshore with their parents, would that solve your problem ?


----------



## drsmith (13 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> If when the children completed their high school education they were resettled offshore with their parents, would that solve your problem ?



At least you've considered a solution which is more than can be said of some of the other critics of present policy who contribute to this thread.

A western would standard education would in itself be a enough of a product for people smugglers to sell and would also encourage separation of families (children first, parents later). 

There's no easy solutions to this and without a universal approach, a product remains available for people smugglers to pedal.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> At least you've considered a solution which is more than can be said of some of the other critics of present policy who contribute to this thread.
> 
> A western would standard education would in itself be a enough of a product for people smugglers to sell and would also encourage separation of families (children first, parents later).
> 
> There's no easy solutions to this and without a universal approach, a product remains available for people smugglers to pedal.




The final result is still offshore settlement with no ability to remain in Australia or for family reunion in Australia. If you don't want them setting foot in this country at all, then the children could be released and educated in the country where they are being processed.


----------



## drsmith (13 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The final result is still offshore settlement with no ability to remain in Australia or for family reunion in Australia. If you don't want them setting foot in this country at all, then the children could be released and educated in the country where they are being processed.



It's not a question of what I want, it's a question of not giving people smugglers a product to sell.

You are at least in favour of offshore processing and resettlement however I'm not sure exactly what you mean by releasing them in that context.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> It's not a question of what I want, it's a question of not giving people smugglers a product to sell.
> 
> You are at least in favour of offshore processing and resettlement however I'm not sure exactly what you mean by releasing them in that context.




How about letting them go to school with other kids, even if you have to bus them in and out of the detention centre every day.


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The final result is still offshore settlement with no ability to remain in Australia or for family reunion in Australia. If you don't want them setting foot in this country at all, then the children could be released and educated in the country where they are being processed.




Yes at least they might absorb a national identity as opposed to personae non gratae and all the misery that goes with it.

My fear is the nursery of future Oz haters we are incubating.


----------



## drsmith (19 February 2015)

Another boat stopped,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-19/asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted-off-cocos-islands/6152002


----------



## Bintang (20 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> Another boat stopped,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-19/asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted-off-cocos-islands/6152002




Must have been a small boat - there were only four of them.
We might eventually see this headline:
"Wind Surfer Carrying Lone Asylum Seeker Intercepted Off Cocos Islands"


----------



## Julia (20 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> We might eventually see this headline:
> "Wind Surfer Carrying Lone Asylum Seeker Intercepted Off Cocos Islands"


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> Must have been a small boat - there were only four of them.
> We might eventually see this headline:
> "Wind Surfer Carrying Lone Asylum Seeker Intercepted Off Cocos Islands"




Let him in !

He could be our next world champion


----------



## drsmith (20 February 2015)

Whether it's a sole windsurfer, a boat of 4 or a boat of many more, Labor continues to bat for illegal people smuggling,



> AUSTRALIAN authorities stopped an asylum-seeker boat west of Christmas Island more than 10 days ago and gave four Sri Lankans back to their government in a swift high-seas transfer.
> 
> Labor was quick to attack the move, questioning how thoroughly the refugee claims of the asylum-seekers were assessed, given that the process took place very quickly and on water....
> 
> ...




http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...aph/comments/labor_gets_even_weaker_on_boats/


----------



## noco (20 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Let him in !
> 
> He could be our next world champion




More likely a IS candidate.


----------



## Bintang (20 February 2015)

noco said:


> More likely a IS candidate.




And future Labor voter.


----------



## noco (24 February 2015)

You either become a TRUE BLUE AUSSIE or bugger off.

*
Below is a letter passed onto me by another "True Blue Aussie".


After you have read the letter and say "My Bloody Oath" than you are truly an Australian.


Letter to the Editor and every Australian, by the True Blue Aussie.


So many letter writers have explained how this land is made up of immigrants.
Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people why today's Australian is not willing to accept the new kind of immigrant any longer.


Back in 1900 (after federation) when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to Australia, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and be documented.


Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground.


They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times.


They made learning English a primary rule in their new Australian households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home.


They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture.


Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labour laws to protect them. All they had were the skills, craftsmanship and desire they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity.


Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out.


Australians fought alongside men whose parents had come straight over from Germany, Italy, France, Japan, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Sweden, Poland and so any other places.


None of these first generation Australians ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from.


They were Australians fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan.


They were defending the Freedom as one people.


When we liberated France, no-one in those villages was looking for the Ukrainian-Australian or the German-Australian or the Irish-Australian.


The people of France saw only Australians. And we carried one flag that represented our country.


Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were.


It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here.  These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an Australian.


Here we are in 2015 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges, but not to learn or speak English. They want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes an Australian passport and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country.


That's not what being an Australian is all about. 


Australians have been very open-hearted and open-minded regarding immigrants, whether they were fleeing poverty, dictatorship, persecution, or whatever else makes us think of those aforementioned immigrants who truly did ADOPT our country, our flag, our morals and our customs, and left their wars, hatred, and divisions behind.


I believe that the immigrants who landed in Australia in the early 1900s deserve better than that for the toil, hard work and sacrifice.


I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags, fighting foreign battles on our soil, making Australians change to suit their religions and cultures, and wanting to change our country's fabric by claiming discrimination when we do not give in to their demands.


It's about time we get real and stand up for our forefathers rights, we are AUSTRALIANS!


Lest we forget it!!! 


NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. NO MORE not saying CHRISTMAS in our stores and in our schools. I eat pork, I drink beer and I want my Australia back!


Hope this letter is read by millions of people all across Australia and Aussies living overseas.


P. S. -- Please pass this on to everyone you know to help ensure our country is not taken over by radical non-Australians !!!




KEEP THIS LETTER MOVING !!

*


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

noco said:


> Please pass this on to everyone you know to help ensure our country is not taken over by radical non-Australians!!!




How will this letter help?
What is anyone who receives this letter going to do about the problem?

The first thing they ought to do is help make sure that Labor/Greens don't get to be in charge of border control again.


----------



## noco (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> How will this letter help?
> What is anyone who receives this letter going to do about the problem?
> 
> The first thing they ought to do is help make sure that Labor/Greens don't get to be in charge of border control again.




How true...how very true.

Shorten has made it clear, he will not turn back the boats which means another flood of illegals.

I watched some of Gillian Trigg's interview this morning on ABC where she showed a graph of how Green/Labor party dealt with boat people in less than 3 months compared with the the current government of 6 months or more.

Now let us look at the two comparisons......The Green/Labor left wing socialists let these illegals in without thorough checks because the detention centers were full to overflowing..the process was ad hoc to say the least.....It did not matter to the Green/Labor Party that these people had no ID....just let them into the community to releave the pressure on the detention centers and hope for the best....it has been a proven fact that some of these illegals are terrorists.....I have always stated that if one in 1000 was a terrorist that is one too many.  There are currently 400 under surveillance.

Under the Liberal Government the process is far more thorough and many have been found not be genuine refugees and have either been sent back to their country, gone voluntarily or are being settled in PNG or Cambodia....Children in detention was down to 123 as of 16th February....Under Labor some 2000 kids were held in detention and over 1200 drowned at sea including children....Triggs has no right to be criticizing the current government when in 2007 there were none in detention. 

So once again Gillian Trigg has given some false information to suit the Green/Labor left wing socialists.   
...Trigg is a manipulator.


----------



## drsmith (24 February 2015)

Gillian Triggs today at a Senate committee hearing,



> Holding Children for lengthy periods of time does not deter people smugglers or stop the boats.




Perhaps not in isolation but she would also know that such a weakness in the deterrence framework would be an open door to people smugglers.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...cs-live-24-february-2015-20150224-13mxls.html


----------



## banco (24 February 2015)

drsmith said:


> Gillian Triggs today at a Senate committee hearing,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Child abuse as deterrence then?


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

banco said:


> Child abuse as deterrence then?




So you think what happens on Manus Island is child abuse?

Four Christian *children were beheaded by ISIS militants* in Iraq for refusing to denounce Jesus and convert to Islam.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/1...n-kids-for-refusing-to-denounce-jesus-church/

Has Triggs said anything about this? Perhaps the ABC should ask her a question about it?


----------



## banco (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> So you think what happens on Manus Island is child abuse?
> 
> Four Christian *children were beheaded by ISIS militants* in Iraq for refusing to denounce Jesus and convert to Islam.
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/1...n-kids-for-refusing-to-denounce-jesus-church/
> ...




I think you're right bintang: Triggs endorses the beheading of children by ISIS.  I can't understand why the Senators didn't press her on this point.  

Yes I think that what was done to children in detention amounts in many, many cases to child abuse.


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

banco said:


> I think you're right bintang: Triggs endorses the beheading of children by ISIS.  I can't understand why the Senators didn't press her on this point.
> 
> Yes I think that what was done to children in detention amounts in many, many cases to child abuse.




Your sarcasm falls short of being witty and is just flawed thinking.
Of course, if asked the question, Triggs would not endorse the beheading of children by ISIS but after answering the question she would go back to condemning soft targets such as the Abbott Government rather than use her energy to condemn a hard target like ISIS.


----------



## banco (24 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> Your sarcasm falls short of being witty and is just flawed thinking.
> Of course, if asked the question, Triggs would not endorse the beheading of children by ISIS but after answering the question she would go back to condemning soft targets such as the Abbott Government rather than use her energy to condemn a hard target like ISIS.




I know you are not very bright but she is the Australian Human Rights Commissioner.  But you're right that criticizing ISIS would be a very bold stand to take for an Australian public servant and would have a really big impact.


----------



## drsmith (24 February 2015)

banco said:


> Child abuse as deterrence then?




Immigration detention is not in itself child abuse but that aside, it's the lack of a product for people smugglers to sell that's the deterrent.


----------



## Bintang (24 February 2015)

banco said:


> I know you are not very bright but she is the Australian Human Rights Commissioner.  But you're right that criticizing ISIS would be a very bold stand to take for an Australian public servant and would have a really big impact.




Yes, of course, Australia is so important on the world stage that nothing else that goes on outside our borders need concern us.
Triggs would be more bold if she were able to put the issues on Manus Island into perspective.


----------



## noco (4 March 2015)

Perhaps we should be doing the same here in Australian.....No more pussy footing around with the known trouble makers...Send them back to where they came from and do it fast.

* Norway deports radical muslims:
Crime rate drops 31% 

Oslo, Norway: "The world's largest gang of  thugs, murderers, and rapists is masquerading as a religion of peace," says Adrian Stavig, a resident of Oslo.

Beginning this past January, the new Norwegian Prime Minister, Erna Solberg began a program which targets and deports muslims who have ties to radical groups.  

While many in America would say this is racist, it's worked in dramatic fashion. 
Violent crimes are down more than 31% in Norway.
Perhaps the rest of Europe and the United States could learn a lesson or two about radical Islam here. 
Deport the radicals, keep the moderates, and everybody wins.

From Oslo local news: 

A record number of people were deported by Norwegian authorities in October, said government sources.
The National Police Immigration Service Norway (Politiets Utlendingsenhet – PU) deported 824 people in October, which is a new record.
The previous record was set in September, the month prior, when 763 people were deported, reported Dagsavisen.
PU believe some of the reasons for the rise in figures are more resources, more staff and a change of “portfolio priorities”. It has also become easier for Norwegian authorities to deport people back to Afghanistan and Nigeria.
Kristin Kvigne, head of PU, said to Dagsavisen: “This month helps us reach our goal for this year.”
Norway’s government has ruled that 7,100 people will be deported in 2014. At the end of October, PU had deported 5,876 people so far this year.
A percentage of those deported in 2014 were asylum seekers who had their application for continued asylum rejected. They were then deported along with their families. The majority of deportees, however, had committed crimes, or had returned illegally to Norway after being deported.
Kvigne said it was important to view the high number of deportations made by PU in the context of falling crime rates across the country.

Not everybody in Norway is happy with the increased deportations. 
One academic slammed the new policies:

“Norwegian women must take responsibility for the fact that muslim men find their manner of dress provocative. And since these men believe women are responsible for rape, the women must adapt to the multicultural society around them.”  – Dr. Unni Wikan, Professor of Social Anthropology at the University of Oslo
So, Dr Wikan, using your logic, it is the victim's fault they have been raped? 
Not in this universe. 
You sir may have book smarts, but you sure don't have any common sense. 

And there you have it! Kicking out radical mMuslims makes a nation safer and peaceable.
Women can walk around without fear of being raped, people just get along a lot better.


*


----------



## Knobby22 (4 March 2015)

Very interesting noco.
Have you got a link? Article looks a bit suss.


----------



## Tisme (4 March 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> Very interesting noco.
> Have you got a link? Article looks a bit suss.




same place as this stuff probably:

http://www.thelocal.no/20140909/holland-agrees-to-take-norways-criminals

http://www.thelocal.no/20140909/norway-reveals-immigrant-crime-crisis


----------



## noco (4 March 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> Very interesting noco.
> Have you got a link? Article looks a bit suss.




These links may be of assistance to suspicions.

http://enzaferreri.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/norway-says-enough-deports-record.html#axzz3TOSbX01C

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...gal-immigrants-next-year-government-says.html


----------



## Bintang (4 March 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> Article looks a bit suss.






noco said:


> These links may be of assistance to suspicions.
> 
> http://enzaferreri.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/norway-says-enough-deports-record.html#axzz3TOSbX01C
> 
> http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...gal-immigrants-next-year-government-says.html




Noco, as much as I like the story you posted,  _Norway deports radical muslims: Crime rate drops 31%_, I also believe it is a bit sus in that it has taken some actual facts and embellished them.

The links you posted only support the un-embellished facts, which are that:
-	Norway has been deporting immigrants/foreigners who are either illegal or have been involved in crime
-	The number of deportations has been increasing
-	The deportations have saved Norwegian society money (i.e. the cost of keeping them in jail)

Here is another link that supports the above http://www.norwaypost.com/index.php/news/latest-news/30293

However, there does not appear to be any substantiation of the following:

-	That the deportation program specifically targets radical muslims
-	That most if not all of the people deported are muslims
-	That Norway’s crime rate has dropped 31%

Interestingly, a report from the USA Library of Congress (which is presumably trustworthy) says that *hundreds of the deported ‘foreigners’ manage to return to the country*. This alone casts strong doubt on the claim that Norway’s crime rate has dropped 31% unless one assumes that after their deportation experience these foreigners return to Norway but don’t commit any more crimes. But that is clearly contradicted by the Library of Congress report, viz

*Norway: Government Plans to Crack Down on Returning Foreign Convicts*
http://www.loc.gov/lawweb/servlet/lloc_news?disp3_l205403508_text
_
Even though the deportation rate of foreigners convicted of crimes in Norway has been much higher in recent years, statistics that had formerly been withheld by the government indicate "that hundreds of them have managed to return despite being officially barred from re-entry. They're often *discovered only when they commit new crimes* and are arrested once again, but sometimes not even then." 

According to police lawyer Kjell Johan Abrahamsen, the foreign convicts who return to the country face a punishment that is "simply too mild," and *re-incarceration in a Norwegian prison does not faze them*. Abrahamsen stated, "*Norway has nice prisons*, and they know that inmates also get paid … around USD 10 a day."_


----------



## noco (9 March 2015)

No doubt that good old Greenie, Bank-Ki-moon. is behind the UN putsch on Australia in response to the Gillian Trigg's false and ill timed report

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...f-asylum-seekers/story-fnihslxi-1227255501984


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2015)

If you Australians don't shut up about us shooting people, we will send 10,000 asylum seekers. Great movie script.


----------



## noco (11 March 2015)

noco said:


> No doubt that good old Greenie, Bank-Ki-moon. is behind the UN putsch on Australia in response to the Gillian Trigg's false and ill timed report
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...f-asylum-seekers/story-fnihslxi-1227255501984




I would like to know if SHY and Gillian Triggs are feeding the UN with these false reports.....I would not put it past them.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...r_un_judges_held_no_trial_tested_no_evidence/


----------



## Knobby22 (11 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> If you Australians don't shut up about us shooting people, we will send 10,000 asylum seekers. Great movie script.




I can hear the dramatic music. I can imagine some Indonesians might join the fun also. 

Let's see the Australian navy stop 1000 boats.


----------



## drsmith (11 March 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> I can hear the dramatic music. I can imagine some Indonesians might join the fun also.
> 
> Let's see the Australian navy stop 1000 boats.



We still have plenty to bright orange lifeboats at the ready but it's just outspoken bluster of the type we've heard before.

It's not in Indonesia's or Australia's interests to have people smuggling operations passing through Indonesia.


----------



## drsmith (15 March 2015)

Has Tanya Plibersek pulled the bung on bipartisanship over Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran with the following,



> LABOR’s deputy leader Tanya Plibersek says Australia’s hard-line policy on turning back asylum-seeker boats may have impeded negotiation efforts to spare Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran from the death penalty in Indonesia.
> 
> Defending Labor’s opposition to the turn-back policy, Ms Plibersek said the government’s position had damaged the relationship between Indonesia and Australia.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-bali-pair-labor/story-fn59nm2j-1227263290290


----------



## drsmith (16 March 2015)

A spokesman for Tanya Plibersek back-pedaling fast,



> At the weekend Plibersek linked the boat turnback policy, which is the cornerstone of the government’s anti-people-smuggling measures, with a souring relationship between leaders.
> 
> “We certainly have been opposed to turnbacks,” Plibersek told Sky News. “Tony Abbott can’t get a phone call returned from the Indonesian president – it has affected our relationship with Indonesia in the past. It has not been good for it.”
> 
> The prime minister, Tony Abbott, has asked to speak to the Indonesian president, Joko Widodo, about the Bali Nine drug traffickers Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, who are on death row in Indonesia.






> A spokesman for Plibersek said that her statements “were in relation to a different matter” and not in relation to Chan and Sukumaran.
> 
> “Labor doesn’t play politics with this highly sensitive matter – it’s too important,” the spokesman said. “Labor has always offered the government every support in efforts to have clemency granted for these two young men.”




Where's the ABC ?

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...ted-by-coalition-over-boat-turn-back-comments


----------



## Bintang (16 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> A spokesman for Tanya Plibersek back-pedaling fast,
> 
> Where's the ABC ?




Still obsessing over the onion.


----------



## noco (16 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> A spokesman for Tanya Plibersek back-pedaling fast,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Geez Doc, did you really expect the Green/Labor left wing coalition control on the ABC to make a comment that would be against the ALP.


----------



## drsmith (17 March 2015)

The monthly OSB update for Feb shows no boats and no IMA's.

Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced is 488, 15 of which was in February. 

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...eleases/monthly-operational-update-february-3

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...ion-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-february


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> A spokesman for Tanya Plibersek back-pedaling fast,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As per Fairfax, way too focused on bagging the coalition.

Good reporting, takes second place, to personal vendettas.IMO

Meanwhile we keep sliding down the slope, that the media keep greasing.


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2015)

Despite the government's continuing success in this policy area, Labor and the Greens still want the boats to return,



> Government's plan to lower protection threshold likely to be stymied in Senate.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-to-be-stymied-in-senate-20150317-1m1ez3.html



> Labor has vowed to oppose the lower threshold and will move amendments to several other provisions. These include one that would refuse protection visas to those who do not provide evidence of their identity without a valid explanation. Another change requires asylum seekers to specify all arguments to support their claims from the outset.
> 
> Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young says the legislation will deny refugee protection to those who are thought to have, or who actually have, provided false identity, citizenship or nationality documents.


----------



## Tisme (18 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> As per Fairfax, way too focused on bagging the coalition.
> 
> .




I do think we should push the ABC  to carry out a fact check on how they treated the ALP Govt versus the LNP govt.

It's kind of odd that we accept the ABC as a classic exemplar of facts when it comes to the "fact checks", but balk at other things we suspect are political persuasions.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2015)

Tisme said:


> I do think we should push the ABC  to carry out a fact check on how they treated the ALP Govt versus the LNP govt.
> 
> It's kind of odd that we accept the ABC as a classic exemplar of facts when it comes to the "fact checks", but balk at other things we suspect are political persuasions.




Well it isn't a fabrication that the ABC and Fairfax disliked Abbott while opposition leader, and this has carried over into his prime minister role.

I don't think they have an open dislike against the LNP, it seems to be very focused on Abbot. Maybe they have found circulation improves, by focusing the public on a common enemy, then just keep feeding them stories.

There has always been and still is a disproportionate level of Abbott focused articles. You just have to look on the cover page of the ABC and Fairfax websites, on any day, most articles will be Abbott or LNP focused. 
This hasn't changed since Labor took office in 2007.


----------



## noco (18 March 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Well it isn't a fabrication that the ABC and Fairfax disliked Abbott while opposition leader, and this has carried over into his prime minister role.
> 
> I don't think they have an open dislike against the LNP, it seems to be very focused on Abbot. Maybe they have found circulation improves, by focusing the public on a common enemy, then just keep feeding them stories.
> 
> ...




As I have said before, control the media and you control the naive public.


----------



## drsmith (27 March 2015)

The people smugglers are still probing for any weakness,



> At least two asylum seeker boats have been turned back to Indonesia in recent weeks as people smugglers try to depict Immigration Minister Peter Dutton as soft on border protection.
> 
> Sources told  The West Australian  that criminal syndicates were using social media and SMS alerts to tell would-be boat people that Mr Dutton was more compassionate than his predecessor Scott Morrison. The Government responded with increased disruption activities and a social media campaign of its own.
> 
> ...




Labor after all its criticism of and who still apposes turn backs remains no match for the criminal syndicates.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/26814568/people-smugglers-try-new-tactic/


----------



## noco (27 March 2015)

drsmith said:


> The people smugglers are still probing for any weakness,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If the Green/Labor coalition win the next election, the people smugglers will be back in business the day after.


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2015)

The monthly OSB update for March shows no boats and no IMA's.

Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced is 497, 9 of which was in March. 

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...releases/9257c70c-1be2-4893-911b-0753520b1512

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...ration-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-march


----------



## Tisme (9 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> The monthly OSB update for March shows no boats and no IMA's.
> 
> Voluntary returns to country of origin from Offshore Processing Centres since OSB commenced is 497, 9 of which was in March.
> 
> ...





So Kevin Rudd's solution works then?


----------



## noco (9 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> So Kevin Rudd's solution works then?




Kevin Rudd's solution was to locate boat people into Papua New Guinea which was a ploy to lure voters before the 2013 election...a ploy to make voters think Rudd was doing something about the mess he created and to the best of my knowledge only one illegal immigrant has settled in PNG....Rudd was dragged kicking and screaming into doing what  the Liberal Party wanted to do which was off shore processing.

So please don't give us the this nonsense about Kevin Rudd......Kevin Rudd lured 1250 men, women and children to their watery death....Rudd allowed 50,000 (mostly Muslims) into Australia and added $11 billion to the bottom line....those 50,000 added to the division of the community  which we witnessed over Easter.


----------



## Tisme (10 April 2015)

noco said:


> Kevin Rudd's solution was to locate boat people into Papua New Guinea which was a ploy to lure voters before the 2013 election...a ploy to make voters think Rudd was doing something about the mess he created and to the best of my knowledge only one illegal immigrant has settled in PNG....Rudd was dragged kicking and screaming into doing what  the Liberal Party wanted to do which was off shore processing.
> 
> So please don't give us the this nonsense about Kevin Rudd......Kevin Rudd lured 1250 men, women and children to their watery death....Rudd allowed 50,000 (mostly Muslims) into Australia and added $11 billion to the bottom line....those 50,000 added to the division of the community  which we witnessed over Easter.




What's different to Rudd's instigated solution and the current one being employed?


----------



## noco (10 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> What's different to Rudd's instigated solution and the current one being employed?




Kevin Rudd did not believe in permanent protection visas.

The current one being employed (that is off shore processing)  was always a Liberal Party policy which the Labor Party had no alternative but to fall inline with to save some of the furniture before the 2013 election....Australian voters were fed up with the Green/Labor left wing socialist policy of open boarders and Bill Shorten wants to open the boarders again.

Why did Rudd suddenly decide to use the Liberal Party policy 6 weeks before the election and write it down on the back of an envelope with Richard Marles.....They botched the whole deal with PNG and they knew it would never work.

PNG is a culture which would never have melded in with middle eastern  refugees.....From one who knows after traveling through the country on 240 flights over 18 years and believe me, there is a lot of cumulus granititis in PNG....In PNG, you never go out at night....you don't travel into isolated areas by yourself....and you must show a lot of vigilance during the day.  

Tisme, if there is anything else you would like to know about PNG, just ask me.


----------



## drsmith (10 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> So Kevin Rudd's solution works then?



Is that after all this time the best you can come up with on your prevention index ?


----------



## drsmith (11 April 2015)

Hopefully, Julie bishop can pull the following off,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...d-asylum-seekers-to-iran-20150410-1mieaw.html


----------



## drsmith (15 April 2015)

The people smugglers of Europe are becoming increasingly bold,



> Separately, the EU border control agency Frontex said on Tuesday that migrant traffickers had fired shots to prevent their wooden boat being confiscated after rescuers saved the 250 people it was carrying off the coast of Libya.
> 
> After the migrants had been transferred, a speedboat approached and its crew fired several shots into the air before the assailants sped away with the empty migrant boat, Frontex said.
> 
> Frontex said the episode marked the second time this year that armed smugglers had taken back a vessel used to transport migrants following a rescue in the central Mediterranean.




http://www.smh.com.au/world/400-mig...ranean-sea-survivors-say-20150414-1ml6wn.html


----------



## Tisme (15 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> Is that after all this time the best you can come up with on your prevention index ?




Still promoting lascivious theatre advertising to minors and children in between baiting and trolling?


----------



## Tisme (15 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> The people smugglers of Europe are becoming increasingly bold,




That's odd, I was just thinking you're suffering the same condition with your own self confidence. BTW howse the economy going under the management of your beloved anti asylum Liberal Party?  How does one spell "tanking".


----------



## drsmith (15 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> Still promoting lascivious theatre advertising to minors and children in between baiting and trolling?






Tisme said:


> That's odd, I was just thinking you're suffering the same condition with your own self confidence. BTW howse the economy going under the management of your beloved anti asylum Liberal Party?  How does one spell "tanking".



After all this time do you have any ideas ?

Anything ??

It's your prevention index.


----------



## noco (15 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> After all this time do you have any ideas ?
> 
> Anything ??
> 
> It's your prevention index.




Doc, you might as well talk to a brick wall.....you will get a  far better response.

The Green/Labor coalition are still in denial about the mess they created 2007/3013.


----------



## drsmith (15 April 2015)

noco said:


> Doc, you might as well talk to a brick wall.....you will get a  far better response.



His hope is that the hoards he thinks are reading this thread don't have an attention span beyond three posts.


----------



## drsmith (19 April 2015)

OSB appears to have chalked up another turn back success,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...e-back-in-vietnam-report-20150418-1mnwej.html

Meanwhile in Europe, another disaster appears to be unfolding and this is after 8000 arrivals and 400 deaths at sea there last weekend.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-19/libya-migrant-boat-sinking-up-to-700-feared-dead/6404438

Some of what is going on there is very ugly indeed,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32337725


----------



## noco (19 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> OSB appears to have chalked up another turn back success,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...e-back-in-vietnam-report-20150418-1mnwej.html
> 
> ...




I believe on one of those boats, Muslims threw 12 Christians overboard...What a callous lot.


----------



## drsmith (19 April 2015)

noco said:


> I believe on one of those boats, Muslims threw 12 Christians overboard...What a callous lot.



That's in the last article along with a graphic that shows the staggering increase in crossings last year.


----------



## luutzu (19 April 2015)

Upto 700 asylum seekers from Libya drowned when ship capsized. Bringing total of drowning to 1500 so far this year. Last year 3000 drowned crossing the Mediterranean from North Africa. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hundreds-feared-dead-after-migrant-boat-capsizes-in-mediterranean/article24018773/


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2015)

luutzu said:


> Upto 700 asylum seekers from Libya drowned when ship capsized. Bringing total of drowning to 1500 so far this year. Last year 3000 drowned crossing the Mediterranean from North Africa.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hundreds-feared-dead-after-migrant-boat-capsizes-in-mediterranean/article24018773/





Yes it's not good, much better to get people where they came from, to treat them nicely.
Rather than have to get get people in other, countries to take them in .

Why is it that the world has to accept refugees? Rather than punish the oppressor? 

That even goes down to individual level, a murderer says 20 years is an excessive punishment, the victim serves eternity. 
Weird, these days the more we excuse bad behaviour, the more we encourage it.


----------



## noco (20 April 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Yes it's not good, much better to get people where they came from, to treat them nicely.
> Rather than have to get get people in other, countries to take them in .
> 
> Why is it that the world has to accept refugees? Rather than punish the oppressor?
> ...




Candidly speaking, I believe the West should have left Gadaffi and Saddam Husien to run Libya and Iraq under a dictatorship instead of imposing democracy.....In fact the West should have stayed out of the middle East altogether....Let the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds sort out their own problems...Dictatorship works better in those countries.
Maybe there would not have been so many drownings in the Mediterranean.  
I am not so sure about Bin Laddin.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2015)

noco said:


> Candidly speaking, I believe the West should have left Gadaffi and Saddam Husien to run Libya and Iraq under a dictatorship instead of imposing democracy.....In fact the West should have stayed out of the middle East altogether....Let the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds sort out their own problems...Dictatorship works better in those countries.
> Maybe there would not have been so many drownings in the Mediterranean.
> I am not so sure about Bin Laddin.




The West was quite happy to let Gaddafi and Hussein run Libya and Iraq as long as they (we) got the oil. 

The West had little role in the overthrow of Gaddafi. Saddam bought about his own downfall when he attacked Kuwait thereby threatening Western oil supplies.

What the West should not have done in the first place was sell weapons to ME countries, but instead should have imposed a blockade so that other countries could not get weapons in either. The excess of weapons in the area is the reason that there are so many troubles.


----------



## luutzu (20 April 2015)

noco said:


> Candidly speaking, I believe the West should have left Gadaffi and Saddam Husien to run Libya and Iraq under a dictatorship instead of imposing democracy.....In fact the West should have stayed out of the middle East altogether....Let the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds sort out their own problems...Dictatorship works better in those countries.
> Maybe there would not have been so many drownings in the Mediterranean.
> I am not so sure about Bin Laddin.




Here's an interesting series of interview with former CIA Analyst and Case Officer, turned torture leaker and then put under house arrest for 30months.

Only 3 of the 8 parts interview released so far, but definitely another perspective to the US/Western roles in the ME.

Traces how he have always thought his country, the US, is that shining city on the hill... got recruited into the CIA, see that it do bad things but always do it for good reasons... or at least do it for the national interest and that's how it ought to be and he's fine with that... then I'm guessing it went beyond that and his conscience, which he said always has sociopathic tendency, can't handle it.

There's a funny part where he said this Kuwaiti guy came up to him and said that the US is only in Kuwait for its own national interests... and he's like, why else would we be here. And why else would you want us here if not for your national interest.

In part 2 and 3 he talks about Saddam and Kuwait... how Saddam interpret a US ambassador's meeting with him as a greenlight for him to take over Kuwait when in fact the US is only OK with him taking over a small oilfield near the border with Kuwait - that CIA/US expects it, would be fine with it... but Saddam thought he got the all clear for the entire state and there we go - all the freedom and liberty that follow with Desert Storm.


----------



## chiff (20 April 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The West was quite happy to let Gaddafi and Hussein run Libya and Iraq as long as they (we) got the oil.
> 
> The West had little role in the overthrow of Gaddafi. Saddam bought about his own downfall when he attacked Kuwait thereby threatening Western oil supplies.
> 
> What the West should not have done in the first place was sell weapons to ME countries, but instead should have imposed a blockade so that other countries could not get weapons in either. The excess of weapons in the area is the reason that there are so many troubles.




The overthrow of Gadaffi....both the UK and France had intensive bombing campaigns ,and when it was all over Obama bragged that he was  responsible for the overthrow of Gadaffi.
What a mess there is in Libya now...the richest country in Africa is now a basket case.
The best advice to the west is to stay out of adventures that they do not understand .Plenty of refugees around now.


----------



## luutzu (20 April 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The West was quite happy to let Gaddafi and Hussein run Libya and Iraq as long as they (we) got the oil.
> 
> The West had little role in the overthrow of Gaddafi. Saddam bought about his own downfall when he attacked Kuwait thereby threatening Western oil supplies.
> 
> What the West should not have done in the first place was sell weapons to ME countries, but instead should have imposed a blockade so that other countries could not get weapons in either. The excess of weapons in the area is the reason that there are so many troubles.




I thought the US bomb key military installations, weaken Gaddafi's armed forces and that led to his lynching.

Saw some doco a while back and it said that under Susan Rice/W Bush, Gaddafi was about to be brought back from the cold. That they have negotiated whereby he would agree to pay $1billion to the victims of that plane bombing etc.... but he did that and then do something else the US didn't like so there he goes.

With Saddam, the US has always been OK with him in power because he represent a balancing force against Iranian/Shiite dominance in the region. But he decided maybe he can sell his oil to a new exchange headed by  Russia/China instead of the current USDollar exchange system the "international community" favours. So that's not very democratic.


----

Back to the refugees crisis on the Mediterranean... they're not all terrorists or terrorists to be, just civilians trying to escape one big bloody war zone that's been going on for at least 13 years and doesn't look like it's going to get better anytime soon.

If we're in their shoes, and Australia is overrun by the new imperial China, most of us would be call "terrorists" in the People's Daily and the others would all want to get on a boat and head to New Zealand and Tasmania too.


----------



## luutzu (20 April 2015)

Read the headlines and it seem there's no refugees or asylum seeker issues, just "migrant" issues. There's no need to say it's illegal of course, the read can assume that decent, law-abiding "migrants" would be travelling by planes.

It's like, what wars? What humanitarian crises? Just a migration issue with lots of illegal "migrants" drowning and the EU will now review this "migrant" problem.

Guess them migrants should have gotten in line and wait for legal migration like, say, those with $USD350,000+ in their account, a university degree and wanting to migrate because the job prospect in the home country isn't as sweet.


----------



## drsmith (21 April 2015)

Another OK from the child senator on an immigration policy platform that drowns people,



> Senator Hanson-Young said she was not convinced lives were being saved by the Government's policy to "turn back the boats".
> 
> "We may not see the drowning, we may not see the gravestones, but that's simply because we've pushed it elsewhere," she said.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-20/government-criticised-over-boat-secrecy/6404950


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2015)

drsmith said:


> Another OK from the child senator on an immigration policy platform that drowns people,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-20/government-criticised-over-boat-secrecy/6404950




Yes, it is also interesting that Europe is trying to stop the boats, in order to stop the drownings.


----------



## drsmith (23 April 2015)

The fact that OSB is still well and truly alive and stopping the boats is getting to the child senator,



> She later told ABC: "The minister is torturing this little child and I don't use those words lightly. We know that the detention has caused these issues for her. Her mental health has deteriorated."
> 
> Mr Dutton responded with venom.
> 
> "That's a repugnant statement, even beneath Sarah Hanson-Young, particularly given that 1200 people died at sea while the Greens were in government with Labor."




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...aims-hes-torturing-child-20150423-1mrdxb.html


----------



## drsmith (3 May 2015)

Mediterranean - ~3,400 rescued in a day,



> SOME 3,427 migrants have been rescued in the Mediterranean Sea off the Libyan coast, officials say.
> 
> THE Italian coastguard reported on Sunday that a total of 16 ships had been involved in several different rescue operations by its coast guard and navy on Saturday.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ue-1400-migrants/story-fn3dxix6-1227332442520


----------



## sptrawler (4 May 2015)

Labor reckons, turning back the boats policy is disgraceful, well that is until they want to get elected.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...olicy-and-boat-turnbacks-20150504-1na6d0.html

Billy boy is going for the Mr Beige look, problem is, he is so beige he is invisible.


----------



## drsmith (5 May 2015)

From the article above,



> "It [turning back boats] will never be in the party platform, but the platform needs to be broad enough for it to be able to happen. Hopefully, we never have to do it."




Soft as putty.

The only hardness there is the stare from the left,





The April OSB update has no boats, no arrivals by boat and another 12 voluntary returns to country of origin from Regional Processing Centres for the month taking this total since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 to 512.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...s/releases/monthly-operational-update-april-3

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...ration-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-april


----------



## Tisme (19 May 2015)

Another rally cry from the chain mail brigade  Who gave these people a tin star to uphold the social conscience of Australia? Apparently we even won the war in France ...go figure 

I too lament the good old days when we had good old fashioned British disdain and hatred for anything darker than a whiter shade of pale. When we freely called wogs wops and dagos, when abos where good at asking for a shilling and a Rothmans' Pilter, when takeaway food was fish and chips sometimes gentrified with vinegar, when a  singlet wearing real man could keep the trouble and strife in tow by threats of violence, when women themselves were seconds to men, there is just so much of a good thing that has been taken away because of these unwelcomed migrants ... we should have stuck with the turn style that only allowed the bog Oirish and the Londeners in, and of course the Scots for their shop steward prowess.



> MY BLOODY OATH!
> 
> 
> Below is a letter passed onto me by another "True Blue Aussie".
> ...


----------



## orr (19 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> Another rally cry from the chain mail brigade  Who gave these people a tin star to uphold the social conscience of Australia? Apparently we even won the war in France ...go figure
> 
> I too lament the good old days when we had good old fashioned British disdain and hatred for anything darker than a whiter shade of pale. When we freely called wogs wops and dagos, when abos where good at asking for a shilling and a Rothmans' Pilter, when takeaway food was fish and chips sometimes gentrified with vinegar, when a  singlet wearing real man could keep the trouble and strife in tow by threats of violence, when women themselves were seconds to men, there is just so much of a good thing that has been taken away because of these unwelcomed migrants ... we should have stuck with the turn style that only allowed the bog Oirish and the Londeners in, and of course the Scots for their shop steward prowess.




Never let a batch of neophytes go by without oiling them up with some rose tinted crypto fascist tosh(beautiful irony considering the writer mangled references). The last thing you want is to expose them to some hard arsed actual history. Thinking will beget thinking, and god knows where that would lead...

And as I write here it's noted that the Philippines are looking to their moral and treaty obligations as to the poor wretch's of the Bay of Bengal.... no doubt that Abbott will see this as a crack in the damned.


----------



## drsmith (20 May 2015)

Don't get too carried away gentlemen.

Just because I haven't posted for a while doesn't mean I'm not watching.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2015)

drsmith said:


> Don't get too carried away gentlemen.
> 
> Just because I haven't posted for a while doesn't mean I'm not watching.




Doc, I found this article interesting, apparently everyone else has been turning the boats back.

And we were told Abbott was the only one doing it.

Shows, not everything you read, is fact.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-...ns-hold-crisis-meeting-over-migration/6482426


----------



## drsmith (20 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Doc, I found this article interesting, apparently everyone else has been turning the boats back.
> 
> And we were told Abbott was the only one doing it.
> 
> ...



What's also interesting in relation to that is this,



> *The sudden crackdown on Bay of Bengal illegal migrants by Thai authorities 20 days ago stopped dead the people-smuggling boats leaving Bangladesh and Myanmar.
> 
> In the first three months of this year, people traffickers were moving 25,000 people through the Bay of Bengal towards Thailand and Malaysia, the UN’s refugee agency estimated.
> 
> ...




http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...m_1200_deaths_and_the_high_risk_of_terrorism/

The full article from The Australian is behind a pay wall.

My bolds.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2015)

drsmith said:


> What's also interesting in relation to that is this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow does that mean that Tony was right?

The 'Turn back the Boats' policy has been introduced in SE Asia, and is going to be implemented in Southern Europe, to save lives.


----------



## luutzu (20 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Wow does that mean that Tony was right?
> 
> The 'Turn back the Boats' policy has been introduced in SE Asia, and is going to be implemented in Southern Europe, to save lives.




You do know that Thailand is being run by the Military right now right? There was a coup a couple years back and some general is in charge.

Doing things corrupt and violent people do isn't something to be proud of.

I saw a few days ago some poor fishing village in Indonesia saved a couple of boatloads of refugees... then dig into their own emergency fund to help feed and house them. But that's just insane right? Let's not be nice lest those murderous people smugglers beat us to it.


Again, I'm not proposing open door and welcome all policy. But let's not be over joy that we've "beaten" those refos.


It's pretty easy to beat the poor and the starving, especially when they're on an overcrowded leaky boat. I'd be really really off my seat impressed if our leadership could beat those multi-billion dollar corporations who's not paying their fair share in tax. Heck, don't need to beat them, just kinda get them to pay their legally required tax rate.

So on the one hand we got practically all corporations not paying their proper taxes... but we got bigger fish to fry.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2015)

luutzu said:


> You do know that Thailand is being run by the Military right now right? There was a coup a couple years back and some general is in charge.
> 
> Doing things corrupt and violent people do isn't something to be proud of.
> 
> ...




We apparently had 400,000 migrants last year, we are taking refugees.

How people can keep throwing up garbage, when you try to help people in an orderly fashion is beyond me.

If we go back to the boat people days, you end up with people without identifying papers in detention, but you don't want that.

Also you say, you don't want open borders.

Obviously, you want to just let people know you care, well that's nice.

I'll pose another question, that isn't nice.

Just say all people in the developed world sponsor a child in Africa, and those children go on to have four children each, who sponsors all them?


----------



## luutzu (20 May 2015)

sptrawler said:


> We apparently had 400,000 migrants last year, we are taking refugees.
> 
> How people can keep throwing up garbage, when you try to help people in an orderly fashion is beyond me.
> 
> ...




Where's the 400,000 from?
That's all migrants I'm assuming - not 400,000 refugees right?

Department of Immigration Fact Sheets:

*2012-2013:* 12,012 refugees... or a total of 20,019 immigrants on Humanitarian Visas.

https://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/60refugee.htm

---

No body, not the poor citizens of rich countries, not the starving Africans, no one want to live on handouts. They don't need to be "sponsored" for life, and definitely do not wish their children to live on handouts either.

Most often they just need a temporary help and an opportunity so they can lift themselves up - and if we're able and willing to help then we should; if we couldn't then we don't. But don't go around thinking the poor and the refugees are after free lunches.

My parents gave my cousins in Vietnam a couple of thousands (which weren't small back then). And with that they bought some tools, some machinery and build up some sort of a living and managed to raise a family.For one of them my dad made a video, send over an old laptop and a used plotter and the guy learn from that and hire a couple of people after a year - bought his own house and move out of the wife's parents' attic.


It's a very slippery slope we're on when we think welfare are for cheats or lazy druggies, and all refugees are carrying Louis Vuitton coming over to cheat on our welfare and plan terrorists attacks.

Google the contributions the majority of refugees make to their adopted country. It's not what you think.


----------



## drsmith (29 May 2015)

What its taken to stop the people smuggling trade to Australia,



> Maj Gen Bottrell confirmed a total of 18 asylum-seeker boats had been prevented from reaching Australia since September 2013, when the Abbott government introduced Operation Sovereign Borders to tackle the people-smuggling trade.




Labor should take note.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/05/25/eighteen-asylum-seekers-boats-stopped


----------



## drsmith (2 June 2015)

19 asylum-seeker boats prevented from reaching Australia since September 2013,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...hes-onto-reef-after-being-turned-back/6513520


----------



## noco (2 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> 19 asylum-seeker boats prevented from reaching Australia since September 2013,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...hes-onto-reef-after-being-turned-back/6513520




If the Green/Labor socialist party, they would sent a water taxi to pick them up.


----------



## drsmith (8 June 2015)

noco said:


> If the Green/Labor socialist party, they would sent a water taxi to pick them up.



That's what's continuing to happen on the Mediterranean with the usual consequences,



> An international rescue fleet plucked almost 5,900 migrants from rickety boats making the perilous sea crossing from North Africa to Europe on Saturday and Sunday, the Italian coastguard said.






> The tide of migrants and refugees risking the often deadly sea crossing to reach Europe from Africa is on the rise this year and the UN refugee agency estimates more than 1,800 have drowned.
> 
> About 800 perished in a single shipwreck in April.






> During the first five months of the year there were 46,500 sea arrivals into Italy, a 12 per cent increase on the same period last year, the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees said.
> 
> The Italian government projects 200,000 in all will come this year, up from 170,000 in 2014.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...t-underway-to-rescue-10-migrant-boats/6528606


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2015)

Another month with no boats. 

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...peration-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-may

That's 10 months in a row now.

Voluntary returns to country of origin from Regional Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 to 31 May 2015 is 520, an addition of 8 during May.


----------



## Boggo (12 June 2015)

I was walking through the city the other day and noticed a Middle Eastern book store, so out of curiosity I went on in.
A clerk stopped me and asked if he could help me (I imagine I didn't look like the normal client).
I then asked him if they had a copy of the Australian Immigration Policy Book regarding illegal immigrants.
The clerk said, “F**k off!! Get out and stay out !”
I said, “Yes, yes, that's the one!! Do you have that in paperback?”


----------



## luutzu (12 June 2015)

Boggo said:


> I was walking through the city the other day and noticed a Middle Eastern book store, so out of curiosity I went on in.
> A clerk stopped me and asked if he could help me (I imagine I didn't look like the normal client).
> I then asked him if they had a copy of the Australian Immigration Policy Book regarding illegal immigrants.
> The clerk said, “F**k off!! Get out and stay out !”
> I said, “Yes, yes, that's the one!! Do you have that in paperback?”




You're now on both the AFP and ASIO's list as "white suspect entering Islamic bookstore looking to convert".


----------



## orr (12 June 2015)

In the bombing raid carried out on his own airfield by Lt Milo Minderbinder(mess officer) in a contract he signed with the Germans, Nately was killed. Milo faced courts martial, he was forced to open his books; Revealing the huge profit M&M Enterprises  made on the deal, '_and everyone had a share,'_ Milo was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel.
The true nature of absurdism is its truth.  Thank-you Joe Heller.

'Abbott' ..."we had to pay the people smuggling criminals to ruin their business model"

exclusive to all media outlets....

Ethics classes anyone? certainly not if Fred Nile, or the christian right   gets their  way


----------



## So_Cynical (13 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Another month with no boats.
> 
> That's 10 months in a row now.




Brilliant, the last boat only cost Tony $30000 to turn around, not counting the cost of the patrol boat and crew to deliver the suitcase full of greenbacks.

I wonder how long it will take the smugglers to adapt to this latest business model.? 30K per fortnight for a 10 day boat trip out and back, they should probably split it with the passengers...nice little earner.


----------



## bellenuit (13 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> Brilliant, the last boat only cost Tony $30000 to turn around, not counting the cost of the patrol boat and crew to deliver the suitcase full of greenbacks.




What would have been the cost if they allowed them onshore? Probably greater than 100 times more.


----------



## So_Cynical (13 June 2015)

bellenuit said:


> What would have been the cost if they allowed them onshore? Probably greater than 100 times more.




No Doubt the cheaper option...still it is what it is.

A suitcase full of money changed hands on the high seas, is Tony any better than the pirates and smugglers?


----------



## noco (13 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> Brilliant, the last boat only cost Tony $30000 to turn around, not counting the cost of the patrol boat and crew to deliver the suitcase full of greenbacks.
> 
> I wonder how long it will take the smugglers to adapt to this latest business model.? 30K per fortnight for a 10 day boat trip out and back, they should probably split it with the passengers...nice little earner.




Do you have any proof or it it say so from the people smugglers?.......Maybe SHY put them up to it to try and embarrass Tony Abbott....I would not put it past her particularly the way Gillian Trigg has carried on.

If it is true what you claim, then their must be some accountability for the money expended.

Some people might finish up with egg on their faces.


----------



## sptrawler (13 June 2015)

noco said:


> Do you have any proof or it it say so from the people smugglers?.......Maybe SHY put them up to it to try and embarrass Tony Abbott....I would not put it past her particularly the way Gillian Trigg has carried on.
> 
> If it is true what you claim, then their must be some accountability for the money expended.
> 
> Some people might finish up with egg on their faces.




I find it difficult to believe, our patrol boats are running around with ransom money, just in case they run into people smugglers. Sounds a bit suss to me.

Especially when we haven't used up, all the bright orange asylum seeker rescue crafts.


----------



## noco (13 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I find it difficult to believe, our patrol boats are running around with ransom money, just in case they run into people smugglers. Sounds a bit suss to me.
> 
> Especially when we haven't used up, all the bright orange asylum seeker rescue crafts.




Me thinks somebody is telling "PORKIES".


----------



## So_Cynical (13 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Especially when we haven't used up, all the bright orange asylum seeker rescue crafts.




The first thought that entered my mind was that perhaps suitcases full of money was the cheaper option, then thought maybe they had run out of orange boats.

Full interview: PM Tony Abbott with Neil Mitchell.

https://audioboom.com/boos/3273593-full-interview-pm-tony-abbott-with-neil-mitchell

"What we do is we stop the boats by hook or by crook".


----------



## Macquack (13 June 2015)

noco said:


> If it is true what you claim, then their must be *some accountability for the money expended*.




What planet do you come from Noco? 

Have you heard of a "slush fund", Tony Abbott knows how to operate one, just ask Pauline Hanson.

Have you heard of FIFA?


----------



## Macquack (13 June 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I find it difficult to believe, our patrol boats are running around with ransom money, just in case they run into people smugglers. Sounds a bit suss to me.




You have forgot the golden rule of international diplomacy - "money speaks all languages", you don't even need the expense of an interpreter.


----------



## Tisme (13 June 2015)

Good to see the Abbott  Govt's tough on smugglers is the reason the boats aren't arriving. Serves those smugglers right only getting $5000 each to take their fares back to the jetty they started from. I wonder how many of the turn back boat people are relatives of the smugglers looking for a piece of the action.

Here's and idea, let Tony pay out of his own pocket if he is so intent on being part of the smuggling trade ... fancy  that, our own Prime Minister smuggling people into Indonesia


----------



## Tightwad (14 June 2015)

shh uncle tony doesn't want us to know about it.. he'll take away our citizenship or something else unconstitutional..


----------



## banco (14 June 2015)

If they did pay them it will make Julie Bishop either a liar or terribly uninformed.


----------



## noco (14 June 2015)

Macquack said:


> What planet do you come from Noco?
> 
> Have you heard of a "slush fund", Tony Abbott knows how to operate one, just ask Pauline Hanson.
> 
> Have you heard of FIFA?




Macquack, thanks for your factitious remarks about *"being on another planet"*....That is what I come to expect of you every time you respond......you just love to attack one's personality or perhaps you have tickets on yourself as being smarter than any one else..I do trust the moderator has taken note.

Having got that off my chest, I should ask you, does the navy or customs boats carry bucket loads of American dollars to pay these boat smugglers or do they have an ATM on board?


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2015)

Tightwad said:


> shh uncle tony doesn't want us to know about it.. he'll take away our citizenship or something else unconstitutional..




I'm wondering if the six crew members who each rec'd $5000 of our (including Noco's, Rumpole's and Dr Smith's) monies were also granted first dibs on citizenship and perhaps a knighthood.

Whatever it takes apparently, even pl$$ing off our nearest, traditionally antagonised and populace neighbour by sending illegals to their shores. Payback for killing the two Bali niners our own police dobbed in to a third world country perhaps?


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2015)

noco said:


> Having got that off my chest, I should ask you, does the navy or customs boats carry bucket loads of American dollars to pay these boat smugglers or do they have an ATM on board?




EFT, Western Union, Cheque, petty cash, etc, .....seems our navy is diversifying into the ATM business.


----------



## noco (14 June 2015)

I  would not trust those Indonesians as far as I could throw them......They lied about our navy boys forcing the hands of smugglers on to hot exhaust pipes......They lied about that and they would not hesitate to lie again....I hope the truth comes out.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...policy_labor_would_not_use_to_stop_the_boats/


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2015)

noco said:


> I  would not trust those Indonesians as far as I could throw them......They lied about our navy boys forcing the hands of smugglers on to hot exhaust pipes......They lied about that and they would not hesitate to lie again....I hope the truth comes out.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...policy_labor_would_not_use_to_stop_the_boats/




I don't think you would accept the truth if it betrayed your unswerving faith in the LNP. No matter the truth, it will not be the LNP to blame, but Bill Shorten or Anastacia instead.

Hiding behind silence  "operational matters" about something that a hand on heart denial would only cement the hardline on smugglers just smacks of guilt. Schoolyard logic is all that is needed to know something smells in Denmark on this one. Of course without the ABC telling the story, none of this would have made the light of day in the Murdoch press (my God I made the mistake of reading the Courier Mail the other day after nearly six months of abstinence = outright rubbish journalism and editorials)


----------



## SirRumpole (14 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm wondering if the six crew members who each rec'd $5000 of our (including Noco's, Rumpole's and Dr Smith's) monies were also granted first dibs on citizenship and perhaps a knighthood.
> 
> Whatever it takes apparently, even pl$$ing off our nearest, traditionally antagonised and populace neighbour by sending illegals to their shores. Payback for killing the two Bali niners our own police dobbed in to a third world country perhaps?




Won't be long before Indo tour operators take day trippers out on a cruise and get paid for taking them back again.


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2015)

I have very little doubt that the crew of that boat were paid to return to Indonesia.

While it's obviously wrong as a matter of principal to engage in such a way with what is a criminal activity, Indonesia has never done enough to prevent this criminal activity from its shores and Labor, the Greens and the UNHCR seem to think it's OK to encourage such criminal activity as a means of global wealth redistribution.

That's the reality of the playing field in which our government and its authorities have to operate.

As for the specific case itself, it was probably a bean counter in immigration and border protection that concluded it was the cheapest option. 

The usual suspects can go through another round of hyperventilation as much as they like but like as has been in the past, that's not going to facilitate a return to Labor's marine taxi service any time soon.


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm wondering if the six crew members who each rec'd $5000 of our (including Noco's, Rumpole's and Dr Smith's) monies were also granted first dibs on citizenship and perhaps a knighthood.



As you've considered me for special mention I'll again ask how that prevention index of yours is going ?


----------



## noco (14 June 2015)

One hypothetical point I would like to make is, if the Government did pay out the alleged US$30,000, would it not encourage other people smugglers to do the same and why would the Government suddenly decide to make these payments when it has not been necessary in the past.

The other point is how much would it have cost the Australian taxpayer to have allowed those 65 illegals  to enter Australia?...I once read it cost Australia $11,000 for each illegal immigrant and multiply that by 65and you get $715,000...That is what it would have cost under the Green/Labor socialist policy of open borders. ...So $30,000 sounds like peanuts to pay the monkeys.

The total tally under Labor's open border policy is now $16 billion and it still adding up every day while we have 80% of these bludgers on welfare and still some in detention who have to fed, clothed and given free medical treatment

The point I should also make is those 65 illegals were on their way to New Zealand and not Australia.....So why would Australia pay US$30,000 to stop them going to New Zealand?...Maybe it was New Zealand money...I said maybe.


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> As you've considered me for special mention I'll again ask how that prevention index of yours is going ?





So much for that olive branch .... still promoting lascivious exposure to minors?  Had the internet police tagging your meta data because of it?

Prevention of illegals is easy = keep them out. Prevention of asylum seekers is easy = repeal UN agreement and treat them as illegals. It's gotta be easy because the LNP are incapable of extended thought, just like the Labs are incapable of not being the self appointed social conscience of the masses.

You got anything to offer as a real solution to a real problem, or are you just argumentative for the sake of it (as usual).

Taken any kids to promiscuous entertainment lately Dr? I'd rather be wrong about migration than being self labelled as you and you internet buddy did (and never recanted it either)!!


----------



## banco (14 June 2015)

Come on Julie are you a liar or just misinformed:

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has denied claims by Indonesian police that Australian Customs officials paid thousands of dollars to people smugglers to take asylum seekers back to Indonesia.

A boat carrying 65 asylum seekers crashed onto a reef near the remote Rote Island, off West Papua, last week and those on board said Australian authorities had turned them back.

Rote Island's police chief said the captain of the boat, a man called Yohanis from North Sulawesi, told police an Australian Customs official paid each crew member $5,000 to bring asylum seekers back to Indonesia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...stoms-officials-paid-people-smugglers/6536474


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> So much for that olive branch .... still promoting lascivious exposure to minors?  Had the internet police tagging your meta data because of it?
> 
> Prevention of illegals is easy = keep them out. Prevention of asylum seekers is easy = repeal UN agreement and treat them as illegals. It's gotta be easy because the LNP are incapable of extended thought, just like the Labs are incapable of not being the self appointed social conscience of the masses.
> 
> ...



Keep the unsubstantiated personal stuff between your ears.

You're the one who isn't happy with the current situation. What then is your alternative or do you still have no answer to offer on that after all this time ?


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2015)

noco said:


> One hypothetical point I would like to make is, if the Government did pay out the alleged US$30,000, would it not encourage other people smugglers to do the same and why would the Government suddenly decide to make these payments when it has not been necessary in the past.
> 
> The other point is how much would it have cost the Australian taxpayer to have allowed those 65 illegals  to enter Australia?...I once read it cost Australia $11,000 for each illegal immigrant and multiply that by 65and you get $715,000...That is what it would have cost under the Green/Labor socialist policy of open borders. ...So $30,000 sounds like peanuts to pay the monkeys.
> 
> ...





Forget about roping in Labor and just consider this on it merits. Doing a CBA to justify human trafficking is not what's going here. We have our elected govt paying to smuggle people from and the Indo region into a south east Asian country. This is the insulting disregard for sovereign rights stuff that starts international conflicts, no matter how barbaric or inhumane the other nation is. We are supposed to be a first world country with and educated mature society that uses it's noodle.

Stop blaming Labor and the Greens for something the LNP is in charge of....it weakens your arguments Noco.


----------



## sails (14 June 2015)

banco said:


> Come on Julie are you a liar or just misinformed:
> 
> Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has denied claims by Indonesian police that Australian Customs officials paid thousands of dollars to people smugglers to take asylum seekers back to Indonesia.
> 
> ...




So you would believe an asylum seeker who may have ditched ID to get into this country by hook or by crook over Julie Bishop?  I find that extraordinary. 

I heard Peter Costello on TV this morning say it is the right thing to say they neither confirm or deny when it comes to security operational matters which makes sense to me.


----------



## bellenuit (14 June 2015)

sails said:


> I heard Peter Costello on TV this morning say it is the right thing to say they neither confirm or deny when it comes to security operational matters which makes sense to me.




I agree Sails, that should be the policy. But unfortunately Abbott completely botched doing that.

IMO the way he answered, with reference to using "by hook or by crook" methods was confirming the story, even though he did say "he would not confirm or deny".

He has put both Dutton and Bishop in strife by his ambiguous response.

The proper response would have been: " We do not either confirm or deny operational matters. Next question please". Instead, by trying to capitalise on the popularity of his turn back the boats policy, he went on to waffle about a willingness to use even "crook" methods, which added credibility to the payment claims.


----------



## banco (14 June 2015)

sails said:


> So you would believe an asylum seeker who may have ditched ID to get into this country by hook or by crook over Julie Bishop?  I find that extraordinary.
> 
> I heard Peter Costello on TV this morning say it is the right thing to say they neither confirm or deny when it comes to security operational matters which makes sense to me.




If it's not true I would have expected a direct denial from Abbott given the previous emphatic denial by Bishop.


----------



## sails (14 June 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I agree Sails, that should be the policy. But unfortunately Abbott completely botched doing that.
> 
> IMO the way he answered, with reference to using "by hook or by crook" methods was confirming the story, even though he did say "he would not confirm or deny".
> 
> ...




Agree that Abbott didn't handle it well but there is still insufficient evidence to know what actually happened, imo.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 June 2015)

> I heard Peter Costello on TV this morning say it is the right thing to say they neither confirm or deny when it comes to security operational matters which makes sense to me.




A few rag-tag refugees on a boat is NOT a national security matter., and saying it is is a load of bull$hite.

 If they are allowed to hide behind National Security on this issue then they can also get away with a lot of other stuff that has  little relevance to NS. Abbott, Bishop and what's his face who now has authority over the refugee situation needs to be hauled over the coals on people smuggler payments, because it could be an illegal act.


----------



## noco (14 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> Forget about roping in Labor and just consider this on it merits. Doing a CBA to justify human trafficking is not what's going here. We have our elected govt paying to smuggle people from and the Indo region into a south east Asian country. This is the insulting disregard for sovereign rights stuff that starts international conflicts, no matter how barbaric or inhumane the other nation is. We are supposed to be a first world country with and educated mature society that uses it's noodle.
> 
> Stop blaming Labor and the Greens for something the LNP is in charge of....it weakens your arguments Noco.




Weakens what argument...There is no argument with me.

You cannot deny the fact if was the Green/Labor socialist Rudd/Gillard/Rudd government with there open border policy who were the creators of the problem we have been faced with since 2008.

Accept the facts.


----------



## noco (14 June 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> A few rag-tag refugees on a boat is NOT a national security matter., and saying it is is a load of bull$hite.
> 
> If they are allowed to hide behind National Security on this issue then they can also get away with a lot of other stuff that has  little relevance to NS. Abbott, Bishop and what's his face who now has authority over the refugee situation needs to be hauled over the coals on people smuggler payments, because it could be an illegal act.




What proof do you have of those payments?

After all it was hear say from an unreliable source and besides that, that boat was headed for New Zealand.


----------



## orr (14 June 2015)

noco said:


> One hypothetical point I would like to make is, if the Government did pay out the alleged US$30,000, would it not encourage other people smugglers to do the same and why would the Government suddenly decide to make these payments when it has not been necessary in the past.
> 
> ...I said maybe.




And as it will prove that your questioned 'maybe' is,  and is proven to be fact, for those just a little more enlightened than your self it will be seen that you are being 'played'. The LNP's modus is to work the on the fears and  ignorance of the 'illiterati'.  You are but the clay that is formed by others hands ...... flailing in a traction-less void destained to leave your children poorer angry and more resentful yourself.

The redistribution that is more concerning to those on the 'gravy train' is that of justice and the rule of law. Singtel/Optus investments in Burma comes to mind. You want less Rohingya on boats get less people to sign up with Optus. Or go over there and beat the Rohiingya to death on the ground yourself. Or is it to hard to  joint the dots.

for the usual suspect choking on his own hubris;
No better way to operate is a taxi service than getting a fare out and back... didn't see that under Rudd


----------



## Macquack (14 June 2015)

noco said:


> After all it was hear say from an unreliable source and besides that, *that boat was headed for New Zealand*.




Well, if that boat was heading for New Zealand then they should have called it the "Endeavour". 

Because, *zero asylum seekers have ever reached New Zealand by boat.*

 BTW, if you are going to be politically correct, stop calling me "comrade".


----------



## IFocus (14 June 2015)

Fascinating

So Abbott is paying the crew to turn back....allegedly

So payment may be a pull factor, illegal, morally bankrupt etc.

This government is not about up holding any of the above valves as we well know.

Abbott will say any thing but the truth or any thing intelligent or factual.......listen to question time. 

But supply and demand drive the people smugglers so anyone wanting to jump on a boat to Oz is going to think x 2 knowing Abbott will out bid them on the price.

Of course as with every other aspect of this bunch of morons ethics and morality are in suspension due to low intellectual ability it might just work.

Slow clap.........wonderful to be an Australian


----------



## noco (14 June 2015)

Macquack said:


> Well, if that boat was heading for New Zealand then they should have called it the "Endeavour".
> 
> Because, *zero asylum seekers have ever reached New Zealand by boat.*
> 
> BTW, if you are going to be politically correct, stop calling me "comrade".




I thought calling someone a comrade  meant you are a friend but when I looked up the Oxford dictionary it interpreted an an associate or companion in some activity. Comradeship was used in the army during WW1 and WW2 so why take exception to it?

Sorry if you felt a bit sensitive about old mate.


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> Fascinating
> 
> So Abbott is paying the crew to turn back....allegedly
> 
> ...



I thought at some point that you'd get back to whinging about more than the secrecy. 

The people smugglers product is for the passengers, not the crew.

The passengers didn't get here which still leaves the people smugglers with no product to sell.


----------



## Macquack (14 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> I thought at some point that you'd get back to whinging about more than the secrecy.
> 
> The people smugglers product is for the passengers, not the crew.
> 
> The passengers didn't get here which still leaves the people smugglers with no product to sell.




They can diversify and sell crash test dummies to the Australian government.


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2015)

Macquack said:


> They can diversify and sell crash test dummies to the Australian government.



We can take them directly to Canberra from the boat.

They would improve the Labor front bench at no cost.


----------



## luutzu (14 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> We can take them directly to Canberra from the boat.
> 
> They would improve the Labor front bench at no cost.




Be kind - they're running away from corrupt, out of touch plutocrats in their homeland and you want them to be sitting next to Joe (get a good high paid job to get a house; or be a politician, stay at "the wife's" place and have taxpayers foot the mortgage) Hockey and Captain Kangaroo?


----------



## banco (14 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> I have very little doubt that the crew of that boat were paid to return to Indonesia.
> 
> While it's obviously wrong as a matter of principal to engage in such a way with what is a criminal activity, Indonesia has never done enough to prevent this criminal activity from its shores and Labor, the Greens and the UNHCR seem to think it's OK to encourage such criminal activity as a means of global wealth redistribution.




LOL saying it's wrong as a matter of principle and then going on to defend it.  You are a master of apparatchik-speak.


----------



## noco (14 June 2015)

All you lefties should take a Bex, a cocacola, a cold shower and lay down for a while.

You are all getting too excited in the hope that you can hang one on Abbott.

Best you wait and see what eventuates before jumping to conclusion.

It is also a good diversion away from the Bill Shorten saga with his rorting in the AWU.


----------



## dutchie (14 June 2015)

noco said:


> All you lefties should take a Bex, a cocacola, a cold shower and lay down for a while.
> 
> You are all getting too excited in the hope that you can hang one on Abbott.
> 
> ...




Just like Insiders this morning.

Shorten not guilty of anything but Abbott Abbott Abbott.

So one-eyed.


----------



## luutzu (14 June 2015)

noco said:


> All you lefties should take a Bex, a cocacola, a cold shower and lay down for a while.
> 
> You are all getting too excited in the hope that you can hang one on Abbott.
> 
> ...




I'm not much for Shorten or Labor either but while we're not jumping to conclusions, maybe wait until after the hearing before finding Shorten guilty.

Abbott on the other hand... didn't he pretty much admit to paying the smugglers? "By hook and by crook"?

I mean, I appreciate the alleged bribery, if was done, was done to save Australians and all that... but we're a nation of law and if you're going to do wrong, wait until it's permitted by law first. Don't go around bragging about doing right and wrong as needed to protect the family. He's Prime Minister Tony Abbott, not Tony Sopranos.


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2015)

banco said:


> LOL saying it's wrong as a matter of principle and then going on to defend it.  You are a master of apparatchik-speak.



What I've done is put that element into its broader context.

If you don't agree, you can offer an alternative context.


----------



## So_Cynical (15 June 2015)

noco said:


> that boat was headed for New Zealand.




You might want to have a look at a map.


----------



## drsmith (15 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> You might want to have a look at a map.




There were earlier media reports that the destination was indeed New Zealand. 

Crew and passengers however were transferred to another wooden boat for the return journey to Indonesia raising questions about the seaworthiness of the original craft.

A Fairfax article has them being on an Australian customs boat for 4 days prior to the transfer. There I'd imagine that any discussions with the crew could have been held in private.

Meanwhile, Julie Bishop has fired a shot back at Indonesia,



> "I look forward to hearing the full results of Indonesia's investigation of the people smuggling crimes committed in Indonesia, including any breaches of passport and visa laws, and establishing whether the captains and crews of these boats are part of people-smuggling syndicates or are paid by them."




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...eker-stance-amid-call-for-bribe-probe/6545312


----------



## noco (15 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> You might want to have a look at a map.




Why would I want to look a map?.....The people smugglers stated it themselves...They were heading for New Zealand.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 June 2015)

noco said:
			
		

> Best you wait and see what eventuates before jumping to conclusion.
> 
> It is also a good diversion away from the Bill Shorten saga with his rorting in the AWU.




I bet you can't see that your statements above are self contradictory.


----------



## So_Cynical (15 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> There were earlier media reports that the destination was indeed New Zealand.




Seriously you guys - they could say their destination was Argentina, doesn't change the fact that its impossible for a refugee boat to reach NZ from Indo without crossing Aust territorial waters.

Its a bit of a worry that you insist on pursuing this fantasy.
`


----------



## noco (15 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> Seriously you guys - they could say their destination was Argentina, doesn't change the fact that its impossible for a refugee boat to reach NZ from Indo without crossing Aust territorial waters.
> 
> Its a bit of a worry that you insist on pursuing this fantasy.
> `




I don't think you would make a very good sailor.

I would say the sea route to New Zealand would have been via the northern part of Australia......That southern ocean route is treacherous to sailing.

Even sailing via the northern route those people smugglers would have to be seen as super optimistic.


----------



## drsmith (15 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> Seriously you guys - they could say their destination was Argentina, doesn't change the fact that its impossible for a refugee boat to reach NZ from Indo without crossing Aust territorial waters.
> 
> Its a bit of a worry that you insist on pursuing this fantasy.
> `



It might help when reading posts if you extend your attention span beyond one sentence.


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2015)

The way Australia is going economically, as Margret Thatcher once said, it will be self resolving. 

They won't be coming here, when it is a third world country.


----------



## drsmith (15 June 2015)

They're not getting here now unlike Labor's record of 50,000 boat arrivals, 1,200 deaths at sea, paying some $500 million for the trip and costing us $11 billion.


----------



## luutzu (15 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> They're not getting here now unlike Labor's record of 50,000 boat arrivals, 1,200 deaths at sea, paying some $500 million for the trip and costing us $11 billion.




Must take a lot of love to excuse things away this much. Love or hatred for the other side.

You're kidding yourself thinking you're doing your country or your people any favour by being this partisan.


----------



## trainspotter (15 June 2015)

Well drsmith I do believe that is the Ace on the table. Abbott, Bishop and Dutton REFUSE to answer questions about that Ex gratia "payment"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...bishop-dutton-refuse-discuss-payments/6547224



> Prime Minister Tony Abbott and his Cabinet ministers have* refused* to answer questions in Parliament about whether Australian authorities *paid people smugglers* to take an asylum seeker boat back to Indonesia.
> 
> Crew members and passengers of a boat, which was intercepted last month, said officials gave the smugglers thousands of dollars to turn around.




_My bolds_


----------



## trainspotter (15 June 2015)

luutzu said:


> Must take a lot of love to excuse things away this much. Love or hatred for the other side.
> 
> You're kidding yourself thinking you're doing your country or your people any favour by being this partisan.




Love thy fellow man ... but not in my country. Indonesia is dumping the refuse of Asia under the "guise" of asylum seekers into our country on leaky boats under the guidance/sanction of the Indo Navy and you want to say yes to the dress? 

We have been caught spying on WiDODO and Bang Bang (can they come up with an original name next time) and now we are expected to take the homeless refugees into our fold of society? Sure .... and Indonesia needs to protect their borders and STOP the illegal boats in their Sovereign waters instead of guiding safe passage to our homeland.


----------



## drsmith (16 June 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Well drsmith I do believe that is the Ace on the table. Abbott, Bishop and Dutton REFUSE to answer questions about that Ex gratia "payment"
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...bishop-dutton-refuse-discuss-payments/6547224




The last part of that article is quiet interesting,



> The Intelligence Services Act states that "a staff member or agent of an agency is not subject to any civil or criminal liability for any act done outside Australia if the act is done in the proper performance of a function of the agency"
> 
> In particular, the Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS) — a supporting agency for Operation Sovereign Borders — is known to engage in the "disruption" of people smuggling syndicates.
> 
> ...





Not inconsistent with the above, it now also seems Labor's attack on the government over this has just blown up in its own face,

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-former-labor-government-20150615-ghotbt.html

Interestingly, after going hard for the past few days, the broader story is no longer top of the pops on the ABC.


----------



## trainspotter (16 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> The last part of that article is quiet interesting,
> 
> Not inconsistent with the above, it now also seems Labor's attack on the government over this has just blown up in its own face,
> 
> ...




Seems like the Labor machine must have forgotten they also had their hand in the cookie jar?



> A spokeswoman for Labor’s immigration spokesman Richard Marles said: “We never paid a people-smuggler to turn back a boat.’’
> But, she said “it is unlawful for the Government or the opposition to divulge security or intelligence information’’ - the same line Labor has been attacking the Government for.




http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...es-to-stop-boats/story-fncynjr2-1227399834451


----------



## Tisme (16 June 2015)

So Jason Bourne has been splashing around the dosh to the smugglers. Damned spys


----------



## noco (16 June 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Seems like the Labor machine must have forgotten they also had their hand in the cookie jar?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...es-to-stop-boats/story-fncynjr2-1227399834451





And some more on the subject from the Australian......Labor tried to bucket the government yesterday on paying people smugglers but silence today they blown apart with hypocrisy....It has all come back to bite them on the backside.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...le-smuggler-cash/story-fn8qlm5e-1227400170908

*That a handful of cash might be useful for information or cooperation is neither surprising nor abhorrent when lives, safety and national security are at stake.

Yet when Labor cranked up its faux outrage the usual suspects in the media, and especially at the ABC, jumped to their tune demanding detailed denials from the government and amplifying any implied criticism from Indonesia.

They never seem to be able to consider these issues from the perspective of Australia’s interests or are capable of even canvassing Jakarta’s hypocrisy or indolence.

The media even applauded Labor’s tactics of devoting all of question time to the issue yesterday — when surely it was obvious this was a case of political self-harm when the opposition was drawing attention to the government’s strongest success and Labor’s greatest public policy shame.

Now Labor won’t deny payments going to people associated with people-smuggling when it was in office — credit to ABC 7.30’s Sabra Lane for first getting this important point on the record and The Australian’s Cameron Stewart and Rowan Callick for reporting how Labor has used cash in similar operations when it was in government.

Now it is Labor who won’t confirm or deny what security agencies do in border protection operations.

Now it is Labor that has no answers.

Quelle surprise.

I wonder how quickly the opposition can hose down the media fury it’s been egging on for five days.*


----------



## Tisme (16 June 2015)

Wouldn't that be a turnup if the payments actually happened under Labor's watch 


http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/06/16/australia-s-boat-payment-policy-four-years-old.html


----------



## Tisme (16 June 2015)

Apparently it cost us $450k per person per year to detain a wannabe migrant on the prison islands.

I was looking at the various dot gov dot au sites regarding the number of "illegal" boat people let into the country and allowed to stay and I'm confused at the difference between the statistical data compared to some of the posted figures here.

Can those that throwing figures around provide a valid gov link to substantiate the number please? I have tried. but maybe looking in the wrong places.

I can see the 13 thousand per annum quota for offshore processed that still occurs, the 50k illegals is eluding me


----------



## drsmith (16 June 2015)

noco said:


> And some more on the subject from the Australian......Labor tried to bucket the government yesterday on paying people smugglers but silence today they blown apart with hypocrisy....It has all come back to bite them on the backside.



Or Bill Shorten.

He could have been set up on this from within.


----------



## drsmith (16 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> Wouldn't that be a turnup if the payments actually happened under Labor's watch
> 
> http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/06/16/australia-s-boat-payment-policy-four-years-old.html



It took a while but the ABC too is finally on the ball on that.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...to-say-if-labor-paid-people-smugglers/6550268


----------



## trainspotter (16 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> It took a while but the ABC too is finally on the ball on that.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...to-say-if-labor-paid-people-smugglers/6550268




Our home is girt by sea; Our land abounds in nature's gifts etc etc .... you get the drift.

Not only the ABC has questioned the ethics?



> And, as Mr Shorten's face took on that green patina suggesting seasickness, there was this: *"We don't know who paid what to where.* When it comes to national security, there is bipartisan on that."
> 
> By which he meant no one talked about operational matters; and certainly not what ASIS might have done with great wads of secret cash when Labor was in power.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...n-vain-for-secret-asylum-20150616-ghpfu9.html


----------



## Tisme (16 June 2015)

Of course to agree to Labor doing it would be tantamount to the LNP doing it too, so neither of them did it..... did they


----------



## drsmith (17 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> Apparently it cost us $450k per person per year to detain a wannabe migrant on the prison islands.
> 
> I was looking at the various dot gov dot au sites regarding the number of "illegal" boat people let into the country and allowed to stay and I'm confused at the difference between the statistical data compared to some of the posted figures here.
> 
> ...



If you can't find the figures on the number of boat arrivals during Labor's time in office, you're not looking hard enough. Denial isn't prevention. 

I used to compile a weekly tally in this thread and at its worst, we were averaging about 1,000 boat arrivals per week. The numbers are a lot simpler to add up now.

As for some more detail on the most recent turnback, the following article is quiet interesting,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...il-boat-turnback-and-alleged-payments/6551472


----------



## Tisme (17 June 2015)

So no .gov figures available?


----------



## drsmith (18 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> So no .gov figures available?



Labor in government announced arrivals on a boat by boat basis which effectively acted as a shipping news service to people smugglers.

The link below is an example of how this added up over the course of a week.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...t=4171&page=76&p=784188&viewfull=1#post784188

OSB under the current government provides monthly updates.


----------



## drsmith (19 June 2015)

> Australia has moved closer to sending thousands of Iranian asylum seekers back to Tehran, with the Abbott Government on the verge of an historic agreement to deport detainees.




There are close to 9000 Iranian asylum seekers either in detention or on bridging visas.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/w...nberra-to-sign-asylum-seekers-deal-with-iran/


----------



## orr (19 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> There are close to 9000 Iranian asylum seekers either in detention or on bridging visas.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/w...nberra-to-sign-asylum-seekers-deal-with-iran/





Pawns for political purpose .... Who would have thought!

You are but putty in the hands of the likes of Goebbels, Crosby and Textor aren't you doc. But ahh... so are the many.

Orwell would help, but you'll have to put in the effort of reading.


----------



## trainspotter (19 June 2015)

orr said:


> Orwell would help, but you'll have to put in the effort of reading.




If you stood next next to a deep hole in the ground with water in it would you be a orr-well ?


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

Another twist in who made payments to that boat crew ?



> The scandal over the boat payments took another twist on Saturday, with revelations Indonesian police accepted bribes from the same people smugglers.
> 
> The Weekend Australian reported police were paid to allow the departure of a boat to New Zealand, whose crew was then paid off to return to Indonesia.




http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/06/21/govt-pressured-for-truth-on-boat-payments.html


----------



## So_Cynical (21 June 2015)

Question: What do you call a PM that orders an employee to pay criminals to commit a criminal act?


----------



## explod (21 June 2015)

So much crapola. 

At the end of the day we are all brothers and sisters on this earth. 

Us Caucasians are decended from English and Spain et al,  who went fouth from the 18th century and plundered the  countries around the earth.   Cut down thier forrest and broke up their  safe and secure community groups and introduced industrialisation and expansionism so that we could profit and live what we thought would be a better life. 

Now it is pay back day and from our profits (which was at thier expense) and our imposition on them of poverty, we need to open our arms and help them all. 

From a practical point this leads us to the necessity of imposing birth control,  to stop expansionism and to equalise the  distribution of what we have left for the equal survival of us all. 

This is simply proper equal socialisation of common humankind.   But to detract from real meaning and sympathetic understanding there are some on here who call it communism,  fabianism etc,.   They are the real enemies of humankind.  So take heed.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> Question: What do you call a PM that orders an employee to pay criminals to commit a criminal act?



Prime Minister or in the case of Indonesia, President.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

Explod,

I've found your heaven,


----------



## moXJO (21 June 2015)

explod said:


> From a practical point this leads us to the necessity of imposing birth control,  to stop expansionism and to equalise the  distribution of what we have left for the equal survival of us all.
> 
> This is simply proper equal socialisation of common humankind.   But to detract from real meaning and sympathetic understanding there are some on here who call it communism,  fabianism etc,.   They are the real enemies of humankind.  So take heed.




Jesus plod.
 Did you visit a North Korean reeducation center or something.


----------



## noco (21 June 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> Question: What do you call a PM that orders an employee to pay criminals to commit a criminal act?




I am not sure...Perhaps you should ask Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard...They know all about those things....I think they outlaid $21 million to people smugglers...That is why Shorten has gone so quiet on the subject.


----------



## Tisme (21 June 2015)

noco said:


> I am not sure...Perhaps you should ask Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard...They know all about those things....I think they outlaid $21 million to people smugglers...That is why Shorten has gone so quiet on the subject.




So it also seems the ALP may not have been involved in spending our money to smuggle people into Indonesia as the present govt has, however the one constant when the govt bribes others is that they are spending our money and we let them, because our political tribalism is more important than national ethics and morality.


----------



## drsmith (21 June 2015)

Tisme said:


> So it also seems the ALP may not have been involved in spending our money to smuggle people into Indonesia as the present govt has, however the one constant when the govt bribes others is that they are spending our money and we let them, because our political tribalism is more important than national ethics and morality.




Prevention index ??

Still waiting..............


----------



## IFocus (22 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Prevention index ??
> 
> Still waiting..............




Happy to wait also for the moral and lawful measures also?

What its mean to be an Australian theses days?


----------



## Tisme (23 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> Happy to wait also for the moral and lawful measures also?
> 
> What its mean to be an Australian theses days?




Obviously males being bitchy of course ...  a nation of newter Toms who practice at being keyboard warriors in place of the lions they once could have been. They don't have any fight left in them so they want to stay locked and secure in their houses, keep strangers out and scrap from the window sill (howse that for a metaphor).

Of course that doesn't apply to alpha males like me ... hell I'm old as and still wrestle crocodiles while I floss my teeth...... it's more rewarding than stealing dollar coins from under gummy children's pillows.

I like your determination in asserting your opinions IFocus;  keep it up.


----------



## Tisme (23 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Prevention index ??
> 
> Still waiting..............




Still waiting to see you express a thought of your own ...minor miracle perhaps?


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> Happy to wait also for the moral and lawful measures also?
> 
> What its mean to be an Australian theses days?



You obviously haven't been following the conversation.



Tisme said:


> Still waiting to see you express a thought of your own ...minor miracle perhaps?



It's your prevention index.


----------



## orr (23 June 2015)

IFocus said:


> Happy to wait also for the moral and lawful measures also?
> 
> What its mean to be an Australian theses days?




Can I add t that; maybe some more efficient and cost effective ones?
Look running a couple of modern day gulags, I know, doesn't come cheap.
For only a small upfront investment we could upgrade the razor wire with a little grass thatching set up a few bungalows and wham'o and get in a few paying guests in a tropical paradise. James P is always on the lookout for somewhere to plonk down another equatorial game of chance, particularly since his hatchet man in Colombo been sidelined. With a ready work force already accustomed to the bordom, the tables are a perfect match. 

A billion a year the mind boggles, for circa  1600 souls.... For those who agree with this policy, you can hear the marbles rattling when they nod.


----------



## qldfrog (23 June 2015)

orr said:


> Can I add t that; maybe some more efficient and cost effective ones?
> Look running a couple of modern day gulags, I know, doesn't come cheap.
> For only a small upfront investment we could upgrade the razor wire with a little grass thatching set up a few bungalows and wham'o and get in a few paying guests in a tropical paradise. James P is always on the lookout for somewhere to plonk down another equatorial game of chance, particularly since his hatchet man in Colombo been sidelined. With a ready work force already accustomed to the bordom, the tables are a perfect match.
> 
> A billion a year the mind boggles, for circa  1600 souls.... For those who agree with this policy, you can hear the marbles rattling when they nod.



France and western europe countries so wish they had spend a billion a year to stop migration;
they would not be in the state they are now;
plus 1billion for 1600 p -> only 625k a year per avoided illegal migrant on his last leg quite cheap vs the cost they would have had on the budget if moved in australia  without doubt with an extra 10 "relatives" moving here and on centerlink within a few years
best money spent ever not to mention the safety and the lives saved for my son's generation, the army expenses saved by not patrolling our own suburbs in  2 decades but eh what would I know, i just saw that game happenned so successfully in Europe;open door policies,  "diversity is an asset"
please have a nice trip there and go to where citizen live, better spent a couple of years living there, not in a contiki tour but in a dormitory suburbs: whose head will rattle?
Come back and tell us

The one and only policy i can agree with this pathetic government


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2015)

orr said:


> A billion a year the mind boggles, for circa  1600 souls....For those who agree with this policy, you can hear the marbles rattling when they nod.



Try looking down on that moral ground upon which you stand.

That's part of Labor's cost for encouraging the boats to start again during their time in government.

That plus the $11,000,000,000 that encouraged 1,200 men, women and children to their deaths.


----------



## explod (23 June 2015)

moXJO said:


> Jesus plod.
> Did you visit a North Korean reeducation center or something.




No,  re-read what was stated.   Hit city traffic at 9am, try to get on a tram,  look at the  hundreds of square miles of housing going up over what was some of our most productive farming land.   Our selfish expansionism and self interest is just so destructive. 

Just for a moment think about one of your children at 2 years,  now the same elements,  intelligence and feelings are in those two year olds on the boats,  in the camps or starving in the deserts of the middle east. 

If we remain exclusive they will eventually overun our bourders,  as is happening in Europe,  anyway. 

So is systemic birth control unreasonable against the gridlock wall we are running into. 

Is wanting to share and be thoughtful of our fellows communism or fabianism.


----------



## Macquack (24 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> That plus the $11,000,000,000 that *encouraged 1,200 men, women and children to their deaths*.




I have said this before and will say it again, get off your soap box Smith in reference to the "deaths at sea".

You could not give a rats ar*e about asylum seekers dying at sea, you are happy to turn them around so they can perish anyway.

Stop with the crocodile tears on the "deaths at sea" when that is your subconscious wish.


----------



## Macquack (24 June 2015)

explod said:


> So much crapola.
> 
> At the end of the day we are all brothers and sisters on this earth.
> 
> ...




You are the man Explod.

To some here on ASF, the concept of building a "public" road is a "communistic" concept that is not required.

These goons are obviously influencing government because if we "actually" need a decent road built then the cost (built by some private consortium such as with Macquarie bank having their hand in the till) will come in at small change under $1 million per lineal metre.

I whole heartedly agree with Explod. Australia could never be built to our present state using the current philosophy. Just look at the road network around Australia. Thank god it is already there.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2015)

Macquack said:


> I have said this before and will say it again, get off your soap box Smith in reference to the "deaths at sea".



Lacking a counter-argument of substance, you play the man and not the ball.

That though doesn't pretend the deaths at sea away.


----------



## orr (24 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Try looking down on that moral ground upon which you stand.
> 
> That's part of Labor's cost for encouraging the boats to start again during their time in government.
> 
> That plus the $11,000,000,000 that encouraged 1,200 men, women and children to their deaths.





Do you need an education on the numbers of people who's deaths are attributed to political and religious oppression in 'our' region. Your argument would carry 'a little more' credence if your poster boy Capt Klown shoes wasn't in such rapture with the butcher of Colombo, would you like me to repost the pic? Or was he more in rapture of Olde Lady Packers campaign donation?

     So much more tidy when they're buried on  Thia boarder in mass graves, or disappeared on the Nth east coast of Sri  Lanka  and so many other points of despair, than them make the struggle to drown with the last of hope in their hearts.

'The lost in Space' Dr Smith character is well understood; jealous, greedy, cowardly, conniving, self-interested, every element exemplified  as the anthesis  of human virtue, hardly a wonder you go by his  image. And at the end of the episodes he finds his reactive instincts wrong. (have you ever unpacked, physiologically why you choose that avatar???) 

I love a moral the high ground trope... so much easier  than assessing your own... humanity/racial proclivity?,,, white Rhodesians bother you?... The black ones,  god bless'm,   the ones working as nurses here are  highly valued.

And _frog, unfunnily enough from QLD _if you'll go to trouble making your last post articulate, I'll be happy to crap all over your ad hom bollocks.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2015)

orr said:


> Do you need an education on the numbers of people who's deaths are attributed to political and religious oppression in 'our' region. Your argument would carry 'a little more' credence if your poster boy Capt Klown shoes wasn't in such rapture with the butcher of Colombo, would you like me to repost the pic? Or was he more in rapture of Olde Lady Packers campaign donation?
> 
> So much more tidy when they're buried on  Thia boarder in mass graves, or disappeared on the Nth east coast of Sri  Lanka  and so many other points of despair, than them make the struggle to drown with the last of hope in their hearts.
> 
> ...



See above.


----------



## noco (24 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Lacking a counter-argument of substance, you play the man and not the ball.
> 
> That though doesn't pretend the deaths at sea away.




Doc, that is exactly the problem with some people on this forum, they don't like what one says, they have no sensible answers so they attack one's character....


----------



## banco (24 June 2015)

noco said:


> Doc, that is exactly the problem with some people on this forum, they don't like what one says, they have no sensible answers so they attack one's character....




I don't think it's a stretch to say that the liberals (and Drsmith, although perhaps I'm being redundant here) never gave a **** about the deaths at sea beyond the fact that it provided a talking point.  You can verify this by trying this thought experiment: if they suddenly started coming in 100% shipworthy boats and deaths at sea dropped to nil would their policy be any different?


----------



## Macquack (24 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Lacking a counter-argument of substance, you play the man and not the ball.
> 
> That though doesn't pretend the deaths at sea away.




I ain't playing the man.

You are the one playing the "deadman" Card.

What is your counter argument, stats on "deaths at sea" will transfer to Indonesian authorities where they don't keep adequate records. Very clever, Smith.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2015)

banco said:


> if they suddenly started coming in 100% shipworthy boats and deaths at sea dropped to nil would their policy be any different?



Let's be realistic rather than fanciful.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2015)

Macquack said:


> I ain't playing the man.




The following speaks for itself on that.



Macquack said:


> You could not give a rats ar*e about asylum seekers dying at sea, you are happy to turn them around so they can perish anyway.
> 
> Stop with the crocodile tears on the "deaths at sea" when that is your subconscious wish.






Macquack said:


> You are the one playing the "deadman" Card.
> 
> What is your counter argument, stats on "deaths at sea" will transfer to Indonesia authorities where they don't keep adequate records. Very clever, Smith.



What's your proof ?


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2015)

banco said:


> I don't think it's a stretch to say that the liberals (and Drsmith, although perhaps I'm being redundant here) never gave a **** about the deaths at sea beyond the fact that it provided a talking point.  You can verify this by trying this thought experiment: if they suddenly started coming in 100% shipworthy boats and deaths at sea dropped to nil would their policy be any different?




Well it all boils back to, you either have an orderly immigration process, or you don't.

If we don't, we will save a fortune on customs and border protection, but we will be inundated with refugees.

Which in itself, isn't a problem as it will make our labour shortage problem disappear, it should also keep the housing prices buoyant.

So maybe Labor were right to encourage illegal immigration, they failed by not providing seaworthy vessels.

I certainly hope they correct the flaw to their policy, when next elected.


----------



## drsmith (24 June 2015)

noco said:


> Doc, that is exactly the problem with some people on this forum, they don't like what one says, they have no sensible answers so they attack one's character....



I haven't eaten cornflakes for a while but I can only assume each packet now comes with a psychology degree.


----------



## drsmith (25 June 2015)

Labor in another undignified policy retreat or is Bill just trying to shore his leadership up against Tanya ?



> Opposition Leader Bill Shorten has issued a stunning public apology, admitting the former Labor government was wrong in its handling of the asylum seeker issue.






> Labor had “learnt lessons” during its time in government and the dangerous sea voyage from Java to Christmas Island must remain closed, he said. “Australia was slow to respond to change our approach ”” the consequences are well known,” Mr Shorten said, an apparent reference to the flood of boats that arrived under the Rudd and Gillard governments.




Does this mean Labor now supports turn backs ?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/28541353/alp-admits-failure-over-boat-arrivals/


----------



## Tisme (25 June 2015)

drsmith said:


> Does this mean Labor now supports turn backs ?




It is Rudd Labor's legislation place so that is a no brainer isn't it? The Libs are only now tweeking it so they can start bringing them into Oz to buy houses in Sydney fro the good of the GDP I believe


----------



## orr (2 July 2015)

What??? nobody trumpeting the latest removal of 'sugar off the table' pull factor; A gag order on health workers reporting  sexual child abuse.... Nothing to see here. And so in the Dept of Immigration we trust. An organisation never afraid of embarrassment.


The old  bishop Pell perfected one on  these lines for a long time, now he's afraid to step back in the country, must be something in the water of that particular shared font; quite putrid.


----------



## trainspotter (2 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> I haven't eaten cornflakes for a while but I can only assume each packet now comes with a psychology degree.




Thank you good Doctor. Laughter is always the best medicine 



> JOURNALIST: Will the Labor Party support boat turnbacks?
> 
> SHORTEN: In terms of refugees, Labor has a compassionate and constructive approach. Labor fundamentally believes that this nation should be compassionate to genuine refugees. That is why we’re supporting regional resettlement. We want to also make sure that people coming to Australia don’t do so in manners which are unsafe by paying criminal people smugglers lots of money to potentially drown at sea. Labor is determined to stop the people smugglers’ model, that’s why we introduced regional resettlement and we are most determined that people smugglers can never get back into the evil trade of allowing vulnerable people to pay them tens of thousands of dollars and then these people get on unsafe boats and drown between Java and Christmas Island. So Labor’s approach is compassionate and constructive.




http://billshorten.com.au/category/transcripts

But but but it is all their fault cause they would not agree to the Malaysian solution 



> And Mr Shorten repeated the reply then-opposition leader Tony Abbott had sent Ms Gillard:* “This is a problem you have created and it is your responsibility to solve.”*
> 
> The Coalition and the Greens joined forces to defeat the Labor government’s legislation, which would have fixed the Malaysian plan to swap asylum seekers for groups of accredited refugees.
> *Mr Shorten said 689 boat people died on their way to Australia after that, implicitly blaming the Coalition and the Greens.*
> “My fear is that the truth (is) that the Coalition opposed the Malaysia arrangement not because they thought it wouldn’t work. They opposed it precisely because they were afraid that it would work,” Mr Shorten said.




http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...olitical-tactics/story-fn5tas5k-1227413451000


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2015)

orr said:


> What??? nobody trumpeting the latest removal of 'sugar off the table' pull factor; A gag order on health workers reporting  sexual child abuse.... Nothing to see here. And so in the Dept of Immigration we trust. An organisation never afraid of embarrassment.
> 
> 
> The old  bishop Pell perfected one on  these lines for a long time, now he's afraid to step back in the country, must be something in the water of that particular shared font; quite putrid.



You better vote Green then,



> It was passed with the support of the federal Coalition and Labor.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-...ak-out-about-asylum-seeker-conditions/6587486


----------



## orr (2 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> You better vote Green then,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-...ak-out-about-asylum-seeker-conditions/6587486




I'll support anybody who's prepared to expose the rape of children. 

Obviously a clear deliniation between yourself and anybody with un-lobotimized sense of virtue.

The institutional Abuse of children Royal Commission  was  a Labor initiative from memory, way to long in coming. But what would you expect with the 'decayed' that preceeded it.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2015)

orr said:


> I'll support anybody who's prepared to expose the rape of children.




How far down did you read ?



> Newly appointed Border Force commissioner Roman Quaedvlieg said the laws were aimed at protecting classified information and would not override existing whistleblower protection laws.
> 
> "This is about the leaking of classified information that can compromise operational security or our sovereignty," he said, indicating that anyone who shared such information illegally would be prosecuted.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (2 July 2015)

It would appear Labor are doing a bit of back to the future, in the absence of any policy, they will adopt the 'Abbott lite' policy.

Well it worked for Kev 07, the Howard lite, me too policy platform. 

What a sad state of affairs, we find ourselves in.

Labor may adopt the turn back the boats policy. 

After all the crap they have thrown at the coalition, for that very same policy, my oh my.


----------



## orr (2 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> How far down did you read ?




How naive are you? (don't tell me let me guess) 

How long do you want the list to run on those that have been_ 'protected'_ by existing whistle blower '_protections'_

The first that comes to mind is Timor Leste, Woodside and Alexander Downer/ David Irvine and the exposure of some sensitive negotiations. Downers 'Bespoke Services' contract to Woodside that quickly followed.
And the consequences for the  whistle blower, Currently how are his abilities to travel internationally? 

You just keep the blinkers on and let the rapes continue.(they're only reffo's)


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2015)

orr said:


> How naive are you? (don't tell me let me guess)



That's what I thought.

Not very.


----------



## drsmith (2 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It would appear Labor are doing a bit of back to the future, in the absence of any policy, they will adopt the 'Abbott lite' policy.
> 
> Well it worked for Kev 07, the Howard lite, me too policy platform.
> 
> ...



I remember how they presented themselves as fiscal conservatives in the lead up to the 2007 election.

Should Labor be returned to office, turning back boats and dealing with the Greens in the senate will at best be something of a conflict. More likely, it will be a convenient excuse.


----------



## noco (5 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> I remember how they presented themselves as fiscal conservatives in the lead up to the 2007 election.
> 
> Should Labor be returned to office, turning back boats and dealing with the Greens in the senate will at best be something of a conflict. More likely, it will be a convenient excuse.




The Green/Labor socialists are all at sea (pardon the pun) when it comes to border control......Joel saying one thing, Richard saying something else and there is poor old Bill saying nothing but probably will agree  with the other two even though he does know what they are saying. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...427540671?sv=1bd3b0f803f4c7b16b729e948df16203


----------



## drsmith (10 July 2015)

11 months now with no boats. 

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...peration-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-may

Voluntary returns to country of origin from Regional Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 to 31 May 2015 is 527, an addition of 7 during June.


----------



## noco (10 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> 11 months now with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...peration-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-may
> 
> Voluntary returns to country of origin from Regional Processing Centres since OSB commenced on 18 September 2013 to 31 May 2015 is 527, an addition of 7 during June.




Doc, with that good news, I wonder how much that has added to the bottom line of our finances?


----------



## dutchie (10 July 2015)

noco said:


> Doc, with that good news, I wonder how much that has added to the bottom line of our finances?




About $11bn, and still counting.


----------



## luutzu (10 July 2015)

dutchie said:


> About $11bn, and still counting.




$1 billion a month for refugees?

Either the number is pulled out of some one's behind or we ought to call some commission and maybe a few court appearances on some people.

At $1B a month... if you were to resettle the refugees in Australia, pay each $10,000 a year, you could settle 100,000 refugees per month, or settles 1.2 million per year. 

And it would costs much less than that since some of them might actually go to work and contribute to small businesses and local communities.


----------



## drsmith (10 July 2015)

The $11bn and still counting is an estimate of the cost blowout from when the Rudd government weakened the Howard government's border protection strategies and the resultant surge in boat arrivals.

It's still counting because we are still having to deal with the legacy of the above.


----------



## dutchie (10 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> The $11bn and still counting is an estimate of the cost blowout from when the Rudd government weakened the Howard government's border protection strategies and the resultant surge in boat arrivals.
> 
> It's still counting because we are still having to deal with the legacy of the above.




Rusted on ALP followers can't fathom this and are in denial.


----------



## noco (10 July 2015)

dutchie said:


> Rusted on ALP followers can't fathom this and are in denial.




The ALP followers can fathom it alright....They just don't like being reminded about how much the Labor Party cost us over that period of stupidity......and it will go on costing us for years to come with social security to keep those illegal bludgers......I would like to know how many are on social welfare as we speak....This was nothing more than a plot to divide the community.

The Green/Labor socialist don't want to talk about that $11 billion + that cost this country with open borders... they would sooner whinge about the $80 million being expended on the Royal commission into union corruption

$80 million is peanuts in comparison of what the unions have cost the economy of Australia over the past 30 years or so.....And what a can of worms the RC has opened.......THE HSU.....the CFMEU.......The AWU and their ex fearless corrupt leader......The workers friend who defrauded them wages in return for "DONATIONS" from companies willing to pay for industrial peace......Donations claimed to be for education and training.


----------



## drsmith (20 July 2015)

We appear to have a fresh people smuggling operation testing the resolve of the present government's policies,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-20/asylum-seeker-vessel-dampier/6633146

How should we as a nation respond ?


----------



## drsmith (22 July 2015)

Labor's final indignity from its border protections failure in government,



> Labor will endorse a policy of asylum seeker boat ‘turnbacks’ at the party’s national conference in Melbourne this weekend.
> 
> Opposition Leader Bill Shorten and Shadow Immigration Minister Richard Marles will present the policy.




Tanya won't be happy and how will The Greens respond?
The Senate in particular comes to mind with the latter should Labor win office.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ional-conference/story-fn9hm1gu-1227452953951


----------



## orr (22 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> indignity f.......... failure......  government,




How are things down at the apre' W/end Reclaim Australia debrief smith???

_'The trick has been to convince these voters that what they really should be angry about are the trendy concerns of an inner-city elite  and anyone who could be a convenient scapegoat for their problems. Hence the unending culture war that, like all phoney wars, works best when it instils fear and loathing.

In Australia, Muslims and asylum seekers are only the easiest targets for that loathing. They’re also the best friends of a conservative movement that relies on an ageing and afraid white base.'_

An acerbic observation from a larger article. Noting as to why the likes of Barnsey Farnsey Springsteen and Petty are happy to give the 'finger' to the Machiavelli's, Crosby Texter and Goebbelsian types that play on the intellectually less able and enabled.    


http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-barnes-is-any-rocker-safe-from-rightwingers


----------



## drsmith (22 July 2015)

orr said:


> How are things down at the apre' W/end Reclaim Australia debrief smith???



I don't know.

You seem to have taken more of an interest in that than I have.


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> Labor's final indignity from its border protections failure in government,
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The problem is, the electorate doesn't think Bill could turn back the sheets, let alone turn back the boats.

Just sad, save my ass politics, from Bill and the boys, pretty transparent stuff. IMO

Labor had better have a weekend team building session, to come up with serious policy, me too won't cut it.

Problem is, they are playing to Abbott's strengths, they really are lost ATM.


----------



## drsmith (27 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> We appear to have a fresh people smuggling operation testing the resolve of the present government's policies,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-20/asylum-seeker-vessel-dampier/6633146
> 
> How should we as a nation respond ?



Labor over the weekend decided that turn backs should be a policy option at their disposal but only to transit countries and not to country of origin.



> On Sunday, the politician who did know how to stop the boats, Scott Morrison (Immigration Minister in 2013-14 and now minister for Social Services), delivered what I think is an accurate summation of the shortcomings of the new Shorten policy. He told me:
> 
> "Shorten has sent the signal that he is watering down border policy, just as [Chris] Evans did back in 2008, when all the chaos began. They seem to forget it was that decision by Evans to abolish TPVs that set the whole thing in motion last time.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/labor...ker-policy-20150726-giktj4.html#ixzz3h58klw3u

Today we have news on the above group and interestingly, the appearance of another policy retreat from Labor,



> On Monday Opposition Leader Bill Shorten indicated a Labor government would turn asylum seekers back to their home countries if they were not deemed to be refugees.
> 
> The practice of returning asylum seekers to the country they were fleeing, rather than to a transit country, is a controversial one.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ht-reports-20150727-gil671.html#ixzz3h59DkKsK

Jim Molan 

[

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSHf0YrxLw

My bolds.


----------



## trainspotter (27 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> Labor over the weekend decided that turn backs should be a policy option at their disposal but only to transit countries and not to country of origin.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/labor...ker-policy-20150726-giktj4.html#ixzz3h58klw3u
> 
> ...





echo echo echo .... what did Jim Molan have to say?


----------



## Tisme (28 July 2015)

drsmith said:


> Labor over the weekend decided that turn backs should be a policy option at their disposal but only to transit countries and not to country of origin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Political propoganda. It's ridiculous to think that the Libs have some kind of special understanding of restricting migration with secret squirell sophisticated thought process. It's simply shut the gate policy ...fortress border policy that is at odds with Labor'sand Europe's current humanitarian policies. 

Why is that guy talking to the ABC anyway... did he get permission from his party bosses?


----------



## overhang (28 July 2015)

Quite a good piece that is well worth a read regardless of political leaning, I will preface it by saying that it's written by Sarah Joseph who is director for Human Rights Law at Monash University but nevertheless it's more neutral than a Fairfax or Guardian piece. 

A few key points she makes is that there isn't a mythical queue for asylum seekers 







> But refugee camps don’t operate like queues – it isn’t first-come first-served. If it was, apparently it would take a refugee arriving in the “queue” now 170 years to reach the front. The average stay in a refugee camp is 17 years. So many stay much longer and even die there.




And another fallacy that most boat arrivals are economic refugees 







> More than 90% of the asylum seekers who have arrived by boat in Australia have been recognised as refugees




The problem with the piece is like all who are opposed to turning back the boats she offers no viable alternative of what to do with those that want to arrive by boat after we''ve reached our increased intake that she suggests.  Her suggestion seems to be that every country needs to lift their game and take more refugees until the 'queues' are empty but this obviously isn't a practical solution.

http://castancentre.com/2015/07/27/operation-sovereign-borders-and-the-drownings-argument/


----------



## Tisme (28 July 2015)

overhang said:


> The problem with the piece is like all who are opposed to turning back the boats she offers no viable alternative of what to do with those that want to arrive by boat after we''ve reached our increased intake that she suggests.  Her suggestion seems to be that every country needs to lift their game and take more refugees until the 'queues' are empty but this obviously isn't a practical solution.




Life was much easier for us when we had a stringent immigration program. None of us knew how many people clamoured ashore in Darwin and we didn't care because were sure of ourselves and British might.

The more we travel and show off how good we have it, the more of the indigenous will want to have a piece of the action.


----------



## luutzu (28 July 2015)

overhang said:


> Quite a good piece that is well worth a read regardless of political leaning, I will preface it by saying that it's written by Sarah Joseph who is director for Human Rights Law at Monash University but nevertheless it's more neutral than a Fairfax or Guardian piece.
> 
> A few key points she makes is that there isn't a mythical queue for asylum seekers
> 
> ...




Solution is quite simple: Don't invade other countries or undermine its gov't; Don't bribe or force trade deals that destroy their economy. 

Since that's not going to happen, then maybe be a bit more generous and help those displaced by war, famine and economic ruins.



If we take a big picture, long term view, the refugee crisis is not just a humanitarian and border security issue for the West. Take it a bit further and it's an economic and survival issue for both the rich and the poor - and it has very little to do with refugees coming to terrorise and take welfare away.

If enough countries are destroyed, by war and by economic policies/free trade deals, who will have enough to buy our stuff? We're supposed to be out there creating markets. Markets aren't going to be around if the masses are displaced and forced to live and die in refugee camps.


Refugees aren't the crisis, they're symptom of much deeper crises. And generosity will only go so far - often it doesn't go anywhere but towards building better fences and efforts to demonise the poor and the helpless so our conscience is clear when we say go back to where you came from.

So short term is to shelter refugees, longer term might be to not bomb their home or cause global warming and trade imbalances.


We live in a globalised world... what happen to those on the other side will affect us. If not directly then indirectly by other means. Take a look at the US banning import of fresh vegies from Mexico or some South American country today. A few Americans got real sick from eating fresh salad from farms where there are no toilet and sanitation - forcing the workers to take care of business where they work, and some of that business got into the vegies.


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2015)

luutzu said:


> Solution is quite simple: Don't invade other countries or undermine its gov't; Don't bribe or force trade deals that destroy their economy.
> 
> Since that's not going to happen, then maybe be a bit more generous and help those displaced by war, famine and economic ruins.
> 
> ...




I suppose it boils back to the basic problem, there is too many humans on Earth.
The more that are saved, the more the problem compounds, how do we house, feed and save everyone? When there are twice as many people, than the planet can support?


----------



## luutzu (28 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I suppose it boils back to the basic problem, there is too many humans on Earth.
> The more that are saved, the more the problem compounds, how do we house, feed and save everyone? When there are twice as many people, than the planet can support?




Wealth redistribution is one 

Just educate people that having a few extra zeros on your account isn't going to do you or your family much good. After 7 zeros, what good does a billion or two do for you anyway... it does a heck of a lot to those living on $5 a day or less.

If the billionaires think a bit harder, it'll not only make them feel better but will also protect what they have. Tacitus, way back then, observed that the major cause of warfare has always been due to extreme inequality. Having six Australians owning the same wealth as the bottom 20% Australians is going towards that road to ruin. Having tax codes where 76 Aussies earning over a million, totaling some $179 million in income, and managed to legally pay only some $79 in taxes between them [yea, I thought it's $79 million too] is wrong.

---

But let say we want to encourage entrepreneurship and want people who won't innovate if the tax is higher to innovate... then let's invest in education and innovation, make the tax system and rethink economic policies that encourages human ingenuity - i.e. move away from these funny accounting and "growth" based on share buybacks and other financial gimmicks; encourage real R&D, discourage rent-seeking tendencies of monopolies.

I think the 18th century economist, Malthus [?], have the reached the same conclusion as you - that within a few generations humanity will face catastrophe between there won't be enough food. 

Then came the steam engine and the industrial revolution.

So it's either control population by war and famine, or innovate. Either be poor ourselves and force others to be poorer and more desperate that they'd work for much less so we poor can buy cheaper goods... or maybe be richer by paying them more so they can buy our stuff and we're all getting better deals.

What we've been seeing over past 40 years is very regressive - it's quite nasty. The people in the first world fare much better than those in the third world, but the world in general is going towards disaster - and record numbers of refugees fleeing their homeland is one symptom of that decline.


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2015)

luutzu said:


> Wealth redistribution is one
> 
> Just educate people that having a few extra zeros on your account isn't going to do you or your family much good. After 7 zeros, what good does a billion or two do for you anyway... it does a heck of a lot to those living on $5 a day or less.
> 
> ...




I think your compassion and enthusiasm is honourable. However I can't help but wonder what would happen if we saved every person living in poverty, then they go on to have four children each, who saves them?
Africa has a population of 1.1 billion, how many do you think Africa can support? Come to think of it how many should Australia take? 50 or 100 million or so?
Let's not forget 1.1 billion is 1000,000,000, there's plenty to go around, that doesn't include India's 1.2 billion or SE Asia.
I'm not saying we shouldn't help, but some form of birth control may be more effective. China seems to be the only one applying any control.


----------



## luutzu (28 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I think your compassion and enthusiasm is honourable. However I can't help but wonder what would happen if we saved every person living in poverty, then they go on to have four children each, who saves them?
> Africa has a population of 1.1 billion, how many do you think Africa can support? Come to think of it how many should Australia take? 50 or 100 million or so?
> Let's not forget 1.1 billion is 1000,000,000, there's plenty to go around, that doesn't include India's 1.2 billion or SE Asia.
> I'm not saying we shouldn't help, but some form of birth control may be more effective. China seems to be the only one applying any control.




It's not about compassion or some left wing wishlist. I think it's quite practical and serves the same purpose that, I'm assuming, both left and right in politics wanted: a better world.

Population is not a problem, it's the distribution of wealth and inequality that is the problem.

Once people are well off, they will naturally only want to have 2 children... or on a national average, 2.3 or so children.

All society need 2 children per family to simply replace the parents. Productivity and economic growth depends on that number.

China is heading towards economic crisis within next decade because of its one-child policy. Its population is aging and the one-child policy meant the retiring workforce cannot be replaced. Since you can't send the old folks off to sea, a much smaller workforce will now have to support a much bigger aging, sick and retired population. 

Research have shown that in desperately poor countries, family size tend to be bigger. But that's often due to family needing extra workforce and also in case the child won't make it. But in slightly richer, and I think it's only a few dollars extra per day richer here, families tend to only have 2 or 2.5 children.

So it is not the third world and their overpopulation that would be the problem.

---

Let take the Walton of WalMart family. If you take $200 billion from them, their lifestyle won't change one bit. 

With that $200 billion, hundreds of millions of people could be train and have clean water and some food and some books for years. Imagine how much human creativity and ingenuity could come out from those hundreds of millions of people - not to mention the demand for WalMart stuff.

Helping people, especially on a global scale, isn't just about giving away money or being nice. It's how you grow demand and market to sell your goods and services to.


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2015)

luutzu said:


> I
> 
> Helping people, especially on a global scale, isn't just about giving away money or being nice. It's how you grow demand and market to sell your goods and services to.




Sounds like a great project.


----------



## qldfrog (29 July 2015)

luutzu said:


> It's not about compassion or some left wing wishlist. I think it's quite practical and serves the same purpose that, I'm assuming, both left and right in politics wanted: a better world.
> 
> Population is not a problem, it's the distribution of wealth and inequality that is the problem.
> Helping people, especially on a global scale, isn't just about giving away money or being nice. It's how you grow demand and market to sell your goods and services to.



I believed as you when I was 20, nice try 
then you look at Africa, the rise of Islam and the use of the womb as a weapon;
wealth increases but education does not follow as 50% of population isdenied education access irrespective of wealth.
War and wasteful habits aka tradition  means than billions can be endlessly dumped into a bucket with so many holes than except for a few dictators with swiss banks accounts, nothing is left;
If Greece which has seen the birth of democracy and civilisation of the western world can not sort its own mess after billions and billions of support, how do you think it will fare for Ethiopia, somalia or the countries of origin of the current waves of economic migration.
I wish you were right, and it is a very confortable mental position to be in, but the real situation as I lived with migrants in Europe is far far less optimistic, so yes, build walls


----------



## luutzu (29 July 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like a great project.




Yea, let's do this! haha


----------



## luutzu (29 July 2015)

qldfrog said:


> I believed as you when I was 20, nice try
> then you look at Africa, the rise of Islam and the use of the womb as a weapon;
> wealth increases but education does not follow as 50% of population isdenied education access irrespective of wealth.
> War and wasteful habits aka tradition  means than billions can be endlessly dumped into a bucket with so many holes than except for a few dictators with swiss banks accounts, nothing is left;
> ...




Culture and traditions are somewhat overrated - history has shown such traditions can be change and erased completely over two generations. When I was 5 or 6 years old, I and a few friends believe that to be a King your body must have no scars and scratches, and I thought dam it it's too late for me and that's unfair. Now I think to be King all you need is a lot of money, a strong army and an opportunity 

Seriously though... Africa is so poor now has a lot to do with it being colonised and exploited than just it being backward and having witch doctors. When your country have resources but you do not have arms, you're going to get exploited and your people get sold into slavery. Since slavery is frown upon now, other ways to exploit your natural resources is pitting one warlord against another, support and fund ones that do your bidding and break those that tries to think about not following your interests.

Real politiks is quite savage. When imposed on defenseless population it's literally a legalised, approved, version of going out there and get what's valuable by any means without any repercussion.

The current way seems to be that if they kill each other, we'll just sell them more guns. If some of the people are displaced they'll just go to neighbouring countries; if they happen to be close to our borders and some managed to cross into it, we'll just label them as illegal invaders and deal with it as we would criminals; then spend more money to build higher and better borders, put more guards and more guns to protect it.

All great powers, and some even not so great, does this. 
It might not be so harmful in the age of cannons or swords and sandles, but in a globalised world with nuclear weapons it's not very smart.

The way politics, empires and big business works is not going to change - that much is certain. But it should. 

If we take Australia or the USA and see how money influence politics to get more money and more power... and eventually 1% owns half the country's wealth and 16 million of its children go to bed hungry. Infer that on the globe and it's obvious that countries and people with more money will have more power and with power they will get more money until there's nothing left.

The results will be billions of people living in poverty, massive area that's decimated and in business terms, deteriorating market and slowing in sales and profit - in other words, decline and fall. 

But there's nuclear war and global climate catastrophe before this would happen though. So that's the good news.


----------



## drsmith (6 August 2015)

It's now been a year since a boat has reached Australia.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...rs/releases/monthly-operational-update-july-3


----------



## drsmith (8 August 2015)

Some stats on the success of OSB,



> Thursday, 06 August 2015
> 
> Operation Sovereign Borders (OSB) has effectively rebuffed people smugglers with the month of July marking one year without a successful people smuggling venture to Australia.
> 
> Since boat turn-backs began under OSB in December 2013 only one illegal entry vessel has arrived in Australia - in July last year - with the 157 illegal maritime arrivals (IMAs) on board transferred to Nauru.






> “Importantly since December 2013 there have been no lives lost at life at sea in stark contrast to the Labor years when 1200 people died on perilous journeys in unsafe boats,” Mr Dutton said.
> 
> Today’s OSB monthly update shows an illegal vessel did attempt to breach Australia’s borders in July, but did not succeed.
> 
> ...




http://www.minister.border.gov.au/peterdutton/2015/Pages/osb-marks-milestone-year-with-no-boats.aspx


----------



## dutchie (1 September 2015)

If you have ever desired to see Europe as a tourist for all it's charm of castles, churches , old buildings, culture, food etc. - go now.

Europe is being invaded and the current residents don't seem to care.

Europe is lost and will never be the same.

All the crap of the Middle East and North Africa is being exported to Europe.

RIP Europe.


----------



## luutzu (5 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> If you have ever desired to see Europe as a tourist for all it's charm of castles, churches , old buildings, culture, food etc. - go now.
> 
> Europe is being invaded and the current residents don't seem to care.
> 
> ...




"Exhausted refugees arrive in Austria"
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e2523a84-53c2-11e5-8642-453585f2cfcd.html#axzz3kruqrp5D


Wait... that's Austria, not Australia.


I admire how Captain Australia thinks... admire because what thinking person could think like this:

So a dead three year-old Syrian refugee is found face down on the beach... that's tragic said our Captain, and the way to prevent that tragedy is to get tough on... on people smugglers of course, and on illegal migrant skipping the queue. 

And oh yea, the Team and I are seriously "thinking" about sending the jets over soon to bomb the place they're supposed to be queing in. OK, I guess bombs around or near the queue, not on the queue so it's safe.


----------



## DB008 (6 September 2015)

luutzu - more deaths at sea you want? Wow. That's a low act.

Saw this on Reddit. l'm glad that the Hungarian PM has come out and said that they don't want anymore Muslims.




> *Hungarian PM: We don't want more Muslims​*
> 
> Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said that his country does not want to take in large numbers of Muslims, in defence of Hungary's response to the surge in refugees trying to enter the country.
> 
> ...




http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/refugees-hungary-train-station-150903064140564.html​


Also, here are the so called 'refugees' throwing water/food away/back at Hungarian police.


​

So, they have left Syria, passed through Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia and now Hungary, on their way to Germany.....refugees hey? More like welfare chasers.


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> If you have ever desired to see Europe as a tourist for all it's charm of castles, churches , old buildings, culture, food etc. - go now.
> 
> Europe is being invaded and the current residents don't seem to care.
> 
> ...



+1
a bit like in the late 30's when nazis threat was dismissed, and no reaction was ever done;
Obamah talking to the Saudis, Putine still the devil for helping Assad,  and one by one islam worst forces are claiming countries;Started with the nasty serbs against the angel kosovo invaders so not new;
But now, after the frontier states have fallen, teh attack is on the fort.

Europe should be on a war foot, not following propaganda bleeding heart manipulation;
Columns of 20/30y old males are overflowing the borders, 75% not even from Syria (please prove me wrong:
these were the figure I could find in left leaving propagandah filled "Le Monde" newspaper yesterday), you are only allowed to see a crying babies and older womens:
the boats crossing from Libya at the rate of 2000 a day are bypassed
only one common point between these invaders:
a religion who wants to see all infidels dead and will never accept european values and way of life;
3 generations of previous such migration has shown it clearly in Europe.
Well done IS your foot soldiers are succeeding;
and at no time will the european leaders ask their people wishes
RIP indeed, and thanks God for the boat policy here, Abbot screwed up absolutely everything else but at least, I might be able to share the same beach as my wife in my old age: poor, broke, but free


----------



## Tisme (6 September 2015)

Rather interesting how the number of unauthorised arrivals by plane continues to be high, 

By boat : 2014 =160 people, 2015 = 4 people
By plane : 2014 - 3121 people


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Rather interesting how the number of unauthorised arrivals by plane continues to be high,
> 
> By boat : 2014 =160 people, 2015 = 4 people
> By plane : 2014 - 3121 people



does this count the 'tourists' who forget to leave?
or are these figures just so called tourists who are not allowed in as too suspicious?
In any case, while terrorism and crime risks are still high, these figures  will not threaten our society;


----------



## Tisme (6 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> does this count the 'tourists' who forget to leave?
> or are these figures just so called tourists who are not allowed in as too suspicious?
> In any case, while terrorism and crime risks are still high, these figures  will not threaten our society;




With planes it's mala fide visa holders and "other".


----------



## noco (6 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Rather interesting how the number of unauthorised arrivals by plane continues to be high,
> 
> By boat : 2014 =160 people, 2015 = 4 people
> By plane : 2014 - 3121 people




How can they be unauthorized when arriving by plane?

In contrast to boat people who throw their ID's overboard so they cannot be identified to people landing legally by plane who must have passports and visas.

If they arrive by plane on work or study visas they are normally sponsored and there is some method of tracking them down.

3121 by plane in 2014 is peanuts in comparison to those who arrived illegally by boat 2008/2013 under the Green/Labor socialist left wing party....50,000 in 5 years....1250 men, women and children drowned at sea.

If they come on visitors or tourist visas and over stay their visa period they will eventually be caught as they have to find work to live...They cannot claim social security like the illegal boat people...You do not say how many out of the 3121 actually have over stayed...What % do you ascertain actually overstayed?

So I do not agree with your argument


----------



## orr (6 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> If you have ever desired to see Europe as a tourist for all it's charm of castles, churches , old buildings, culture, food etc. - go now.
> 
> Europe is being invaded and the current residents don't seem to care.
> 
> ...




Channeling Dutchie??? .......Penned by Dr Goebbels 1933.... (People say that when you evoke comparisons with the Nazi's you've lost the argument, well);
 This following excerpt is direct lift from the full attached Goebbels speech

_'These events reveal the racial problem in all its difficulty. It will not fade away until Europe’s peoples solve it. It will be solved when the people for their own good do what is necessary for their security.'_

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goeb41.htm

When you are aware of your history you know where the real dangers lie.

The fact that Martin Luther, a German, kicked off the Reformation that re-orientated Christianity and today Germany takes in the untidy effects of the dying throws of unreconstructed Islam, indicates to me that the Germans see the possibilities of addressing issues. Whereas the Abbott governments anti intellectual, fear mungering and only response is to drop bombs on it.


----------



## DB008 (6 September 2015)

This is turning into  joke isn't it?

Crazy

*Bavarian Schoolgirls Asked To 'Dress Modestly' Due To Syrian Refugees nearby*​



> A Bavarian school has dashed a letter off to parents, warning them that their daughters should dress "modestly" instead of revealing skin, as a refugee camp had been set up near the school, according to rt.
> 
> Moreover, modest dressing is better, he said. "The Syrian citizens are mainly Muslims and speak Arabic. The refugees are marked by their own culture. Because our school is directly next to where they are staying, modest clothing should be adhered to. Revealing tops or blouses, shorts or miniskirts could lead to misunderstandings," Thalhammer added.





http://www.newseveryday.com/articles/20469/20150629/bavarian-schoolgirls-asked-dress-modestly-due-syrian-refugees-nearby.htm​


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2015)

orr said:


> When you are aware of your history you know where the real dangers lie.



And when you live in history, you keep fighting past wars while being unaware of the new real dangers
see US vs russia while being F.up in the grand way by China,
or the west still supporting"freedom fighters" against Assad as they did in Libya, and fighting extreme rights: bad anzis..ehh why not use a Gobbel quote?
Quite symptomatic/ironic and the reason why the west is done considering the current media propaganda assault of the bleeding hearts.


----------



## orr (6 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> And when you live in history, you keep fighting past wars while being unaware of the new real dangers
> see US vs russia while being F.up in the grand way by China,
> or the west still supporting"freedom fighters" against Assad as they did in Libya, and fighting extreme rights: bad anzis..ehh why not use a Gobbel quote?
> Quite symptomatic/ironic and the reason why the west is done considering the current media propaganda assault of the bleeding hearts.




If someone  wishes to para phrase Gobbels who am I to argue, don't shoot the messenger.  The broader aspects of geo political power balances raised may have to wait till you nuance them a little more articulately.
For those interested in the _'current media propaganda assault of the bleeding hearts'_ . A  few cold hard sats.

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/5/9265621/syrian-refugee-charts

And Frog are you the type of guy who would have revisited the 'Treaty of  Versailles' at the end of WW2 as opposed to the  Marshall Plan, because of an abject failure to understand the lessons of history? Sort of like going int Afghanistan and not knowing about General Elfinstone's withdrawal From Kabul... we've sort of re-lived that one too.

So in the words of Air Vice Marshall Cpt WrongWay ClownShoes ' Bombs Away'... hope that makes you 'feel safer' frog.


----------



## trainspotter (6 September 2015)

orr said:


> Channeling Dutchie??? .......Penned by Dr Goebbels 1933.... (People say that when you evoke comparisons with the Nazi's you've lost the argument, well);
> This following excerpt is direct lift from the full attached Goebbels speech
> 
> _'These events reveal the racial problem in all its difficulty. It will not fade away until Europe’s peoples solve it. It will be solved when the people for their own good do what is necessary for their security.'_
> ...




Syria is NOT Goebbels mandate ...



> Lord Carey said: _“I do not consider it enough to send aid to refugee camps in the Middle East._
> 
> “Rather, there must be renewed military and diplomatic efforts to crush the twin menaces of Islamic State and al-Qaeda once and for all.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...o-pressure-on-cameron-with-call-to-crush-isis

Goebbels was not humanitarian.

Germany had no choice on the immigrants. They are wealthy. They drive the EU. It is political. They refused to take them and now they have backflipped. Get some perspective orr.

Don't allay Abbott with world politics. Russia is building up Syria http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34166623



> US Secretary of State John Kerry has expressed concern to Moscow over reports of Russian military build-up in Syria, the state department says.
> US media reports said Russia has sent advisers and hardware to Syria, in what Washington fears is an expansion of its support for President Bashar al-Assad.
> Any such development would* "escalate the conflict"*, Mr Kerry told his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov.
> Russia has been a key ally of Syria throughout its four-year civil war.




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34166623

We have the ANZUS treaty for a reason mate!


----------



## trainspotter (6 September 2015)

orr said:


> If someone  wishes to para phrase Gobbels who am I to argue, don't shoot the messenger.  The broader aspects of geo political power balances raised may have to wait till you nuance them a little more articulately.
> For those interested in the _'current media propaganda assault of the bleeding hearts'_ . A  few cold hard sats.
> 
> http://www.vox.com/2015/9/5/9265621/syrian-refugee-charts
> ...




Soviet - Afghan War ring a bell ?? Anyone ... anyone



> The Soviet–Afghan War lasted over nine years from December 1979 to February 1989. Insurgent groups ("the Mujahideen") *who received substantial aid from the United States *and several Muslim countries, fought against the Soviet Army and allied Afghan forces. Between 850,000–1.5 million civilians were killed[24][25] and millions of Afghans fled the country as refugees, mostly to Pakistan and Iran.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...m-syria-tony-abbott-says-20150906-gjg6ud.html



> Australia will take more refugees from Syria in response to the growing international crisis, but will not increase the total number of asylum seekers it accepts, Prime Minister Tony Abbott announced on Sunday.
> His comments came as Austria and Germany threw open their borders to thousands of exhausted migrants from the east, and Hungary warned that the *number could grow to millions*.




Putin pushing Islamists at it's finest


----------



## Tisme (6 September 2015)

noco said:


> How can they be unauthorized when arriving by plane?
> 
> In contrast to boat people who throw their ID's overboard so they cannot be identified to people landing legally by plane who must have passports and visas.
> 
> ...




What argument? I'm just presenting information


----------



## explod (6 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Don't allay Abbott with world politics.!




Abbott is up to his balls in it,  to bomb Syria for a start. 

Germany is opening up to the refugees enmass. 

Most of the boat people have been displaced by us getting rid of Saddam Hussian who held the violently different factions apart and in order.   Why,  oil and the petro dollar.   Aphganistan the same. 

Get real,  Abbott belives in God,  who would never refuse anyone.  He may burn in hell and the polls continue to deteriorate for him.   Why,  the electorate has a conscience. 

Our English ancestors plundered countries,  cut down their forrests and destroyed communities.   Now it is pay day,  we have to take them in and give shelter


----------



## noco (6 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> What argument? I'm just presenting information




Your post .

Rather interesting how* the number of unauthorised arrivals by plane continues to be high,*

By boat : 2014 =160 people, 2015 = 4 people
By plane : 2014 - 3121 people 

You clearly stated unauthorized arrivals....All plane arrivals must be authorized....They cannot enter through immigration and customs without a passport and a visa and their luggage is checked for drugs.


----------



## Macquack (6 September 2015)

explod said:


> Abbott is up to his balls in it,  to bomb Syria for a start.
> 
> Germany is opening up to the refugees enmass.
> 
> ...




explode is on the money as usual.

I remember after the "Coalition of the Gullible" conquered Iraq, the US set their sights on Syria. Weapons of mass brainwashing at work.

Now we have a refugee crisis in Europe. Lets bomb Syria, that should fix the problem.


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2015)

for orr, just in case he actually really want to know where these migrants come from: europe; last known figures for 2015
From left wing Le Monde:http://s2.lemde.fr/image/2015/09/04/534x0/4745954_6_6a54_eurostat_6751ea2c9a8c19a415d1bb89f2f2d22f.png
less than 20% from Syria
But why would the truth  contradict a nice fairy tale;
as for my own views:
neither irak, libya or Syria would have seen so many disasters and death if we had left the  dictators (yes they were) in place;
unis would be open, women could walk in the streets and babies would not be starving
so well done the arab spring!!! And I am sure as a nice kind heart, Orr you were celebrating the falls of the tyrans.
so go back to history, see what has happenned for nearly a 1000's year in europe at the turkish border and try to understand if you can that an army is not needed to invade a country;
Ask kosovars, a former bastion of the orthodox church, now a training camp for jihadist, all supported by the US and the leftist european leaders..you want to talk history and lessons..please do


----------



## DB008 (6 September 2015)

> *The numbers*
> 
> More than 4 million refugees have fled Syria since the war there began in 2011. According to the UN’s refugee agency, almost 1.8 million have gone to Turkey, more than 600,000 to Jordan and 1 million to Lebanon – a country whose population is just 4 million.
> 
> On Monday, Angela Merkel said Germany expected to take at least 800,000 asylum seekers this year. The figure is likely to go up, and could hit 1 million, Berlin says. In 2014 the European nation that accepted the largest number of refugees in proportion to its population was Sweden. Hungary, Malta, Switzerland and 13 other countries accepted more asylum applications than the UK, according to Eurostat.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/refugees-welcome-uk-germany-compare-migration




​


----------



## luutzu (6 September 2015)

DB008 said:


> luutzu - more deaths at sea you want? Wow. That's a low act.
> 
> Saw this on Reddit. l'm glad that the Hungarian PM has come out and said that they don't want anymore Muslims.
> 
> ...




The tough love argument you and Abbott talks about is ridiculous.

It's like this: You see a burning building, residents are running out. Some could drive out, some could fly out, some got rescued and some jump the windows to get out. 

Of those who jumped, some make it, some fall to their death...

Then we have you and Abbott stand safely away saying, well... they wouldn't have died if they didn't jump. Why do some leftist want to encourage people to jump out of the building like that? Why can't people follow the exit signs and orderly walk out or wait to be rescued and granted asylum?

And to add insult to injuries regarding the Syrians... we're part of the coalition of the willing who bombs the bloody place.

If a person were to start or help start a fire to a building and say the same rubbish we're hearing.. that person should be in some asylum. 

----



DB008 said:


> ..
> 
> So, they have left Syria, passed through Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia and now Hungary, on their way to Germany.....refugees hey? More like welfare chasers.




I heard a couple of experts a weeks back saying that the current refugee crisis has been going on for at least a decade! All the neighbouring states in North Africa and the Middle East - those states have taken in MILLIONS of refugees. Those are poor countries to start with, they certainly do not like "welfare chasers" but they do take in millions...

Not hard to imagine that the ones reaching Europe now does so because those camps are full.


----------



## luutzu (6 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> +1
> a bit like in the late 30's when nazis threat was dismissed, and no reaction was ever done;
> Obamah talking to the Saudis, Putine still the devil for helping Assad,  and one by one islam worst forces are claiming countries;Started with the nasty serbs against the angel kosovo invaders so not new;
> But now, after the frontier states have fallen, teh attack is on the fort.
> ...




Who knows, maybe you'll also grow a brain in your old age too. Might not function properly then either, but at least it's there.

Seriously, re-read what you just wrote and think about it.

So the Nazis are evil because... I assume you mean because they also lump an entire race and an entire religion together and lock them in the ghettos then onto the gas chambers.... How is that different from what you're saying and proposing? Seems the only thin missing are the gas chambers.

So Islam and IS are evil, want to spread evil around the world and these refugees are their foot soldiers.. and if we let them in our great Christian civilisation will blah blah blah...

How much better is your religion if it tells you to screw all those who seeks help?

---
When asked why he does not abandon the refugees that is flocking to him, seeking his protection against TsaoTsao. Why does he not send the old and the weak away but instead put his soldiers and his meager resources to feed them, thereby weakening his defense and slowing down his escape from TsaoTsao.

Liu Pei replied: "I have heard that TsaoTsao once said that he would rather betray the world than let the world betray him. I Liu Pei will not betray the world. I will do what is right and what is just. If in doing so results in my downfall, that is my problem. If doing so and the world betrays me, that's the world's problem."


There are greater men, men who actually accomplish great deeds, and does it with more compassion than your captain kangaroo. A guy who, by your account has economically bankrupt the country, he will also my world's account morally bankrupt the country's conscience too.

We are who we want to emulate.


----------



## McLovin (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> You clearly stated unauthorized arrivals....All plane arrivals must be authorized....They cannot enter through immigration and customs without a passport and a visa and their luggage is checked for drugs.




Unauthorised arrivals can arrive by air, sea or in the case of Moses, land. Once you pass through customs and immigration into Australia, by whatever means, you're no longer "unauthorised" (not that you were necessarily beforehand). Unauthorised arrival refers to the act of presenting yourself at a border for a purpose other than you are authorised for (eg tourist visa presents at border as asylum seeker), not crossing the border. If you cross the border without having presented yourself to a border official, you're an illegal immigrant.

I'm yet to see an illegal immigrant arrive by boat.


----------



## qldfrog (7 September 2015)

McLovin said:


> Unauthorised arrivals can arrive by air, sea or in the case of Moses, land. Once you pass through customs and immigration into Australia, by whatever means, you're no longer "unauthorised" (not that you were necessarily beforehand). Unauthorised arrival refers to the act of presenting yourself at a border for a purpose other than you are authorised for (eg tourist visa presents at border as asylum seeker), not crossing the border. If you cross the border without having presented yourself to a border official, you're an illegal immigrant.
> 
> I'm yet to see an illegal immigrant arrive by boat.



I assume you mean by plane
anyway, I will leave  that thread and let people worry about poor refugees fleeing death..yes some are, numerous yes but in the 20/80 rule, that is now what is happening in europe now

While rome is burning..


----------



## trainspotter (7 September 2015)

explod said:


> Abbott is up to his balls in it,  to bomb Syria for a start.
> 
> Germany is opening up to the refugees enmass.
> 
> ...




*GOSH* what a simplistic view you have of and on world politics. ANZUS Treaty anyone ... anyone?? But who is backing this mess? 



> Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's principal backers are *Russia and Iran*, while the United States, Britain, France, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates back the armed opposition to Assad.




What are they fighting?



> U.S. analysts estimate* ISIS *has about 31,000 fighters, while the U.S. Treasury Department puts ISIS's earnings from oil revenues and taxation at $1 billion US annually.




http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-s-civil-war-6-things-to-know-from-this-summer-1.3216774

Germany's hand was forced. You have heard of the Dublin Rule right? Hungary does not want them !! 



> German Interior Ministry spokesman Harald Neymanns said Berlin's decision to open its borders to Syrians was an exceptional case for humanitarian reasons. He said Europe's so-called Dublin rules, which require people to apply for asylum in the first EU country they enter, had not been suspended.
> 
> *"The Dublin rules are still valid and we expect other European Union member states to stick to them,"* he said.




http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/05/us-europe-migrants-hungary-idUSKCN0R40FO20150905

Boat people Saddam Hussein?? You might want to LEARN some FACTS before sprouting such NONSENSE !!!



> In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Persian Gulf War, he cracked down ruthlessly against several uprisings in the Kurdish north and the Shia south. His forces committed full-scale massacres and other gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time range from 20,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for Shi'ites




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq

*Of nearly 2 million refugees created by the 1991 crackdown on dissent*, it is estimated that 1,000 died every day for a period of months due to unsanitary and inhumane conditions. Saddam CREATED the refugees of people FLEEING a murderous Dictatorship and you condone this by saying _"Saddam Hussian who held the violently different factions apart and in order"_ No amount of sugar coating is going to let me forget this idiotic statement PLOD !!

Stop fooling yourself explod. You have an opinion that is totally distorted on BS and untruths. Post up some FACTS and not just your barstool barrister opines.

_" No one alive today can be held personally accountable for that past"_


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2015)

Will be interesting to see how Germany treat their new arrivals in the long term.

Will they give them permanent residency or "protection" visas ?

800,000 is a lot to absorb for one country, and it will likely cost them a fortune.


----------



## explod (7 September 2015)

trainspotter. 

Our interference comes back to the petrodollar. 

There have over the decades been meny equal tragedies of people being decimated,  in particular Africa and the treaties have not given a fig.   Because they have no oil or gas to exploit. 

It is simple really.  

 for you too Champ.


----------



## trainspotter (7 September 2015)

explod said:


> trainspotter.
> 
> Our interference comes back to the petrodollar.
> 
> ...




Ermmmm not quite old chum. You claimed the overthrow of Saddam Hussein caused the refugee crisis. WRONG.

You do remember that Saddam invaded Kuwait right? Is that not an act of war? The U.N. responded in kind.

Bleating about petrodollar is a red herring and you know it !

Africa not being given it's fair share of U.S. military interference? Have you not watched the movie "Black Hawk Down" ?

Click on this link to see how active the U.S. has been in Africa http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/04/15/the-uss-invasion-of-africa-that-nobody-knows-about/

Just stick to the quantifiable FACTS please.


----------



## explod (7 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Ermmmm not quite old chum. You claimed the overthrow of Saddam Hussein caused the refugee crisis. WRONG.
> 
> You do remember that Saddam invaded Kuwait right? Is that not an act of war? The U.N. responded in kind.
> 
> ...




Saddam was an absolute mongrel and tyrant.  We all know,  but when he began to truck oil north to Russia the cry of weapons of mass destruction sounded.   All about the money Ralf.


----------



## orr (7 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> *GOSH*
> 
> Stop fooling yourself explod. You have an opinion that is totally distorted on BS and untruths. Post up some FACTS and not just your barstool barrister opines.
> 
> _" No one alive today can be held personally accountable for that past"_




Gosh alright... Your learning as we go here it appears spotter.

Just with regard the Shia in the South and kurds in the North, a detailed reportage of that era is well documented in Robert Fisks, superlative 'The Great War for Civilisation'. In the South the swamps were drained to destroy the ancient way of life of the people there because of the threat they posed at the end of the first gulf war when they were promised support from the US to rise up against Saddam, They were left to hang out to dry. It being obvious to the  Pentagon that the Baathist were the only viable way of holding Iraq together. A fact ignored by the second Bush. The Kurds, regionally isolated and a minority group went under the jack boot as an example, Gassed with British supplied chemicals.  

there's about 1200pg's worth of reading that'll help you with some back ground. feel free to open it at any page to test me on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_for_Civilisation

point 16 down the wiki entry ....Betrayal


----------



## trainspotter (7 September 2015)

explod said:


> Saddam was an absolute mongrel and tyrant.  We all know,  but when he began to truck oil north to Russia the cry of weapons of mass destruction sounded.   All about the money Ralf.




Hence I revert back to my original statement about how Russia is backing Syria / ISIS and the U.S. is leading the coalition to overthrow the incumbent government led by President Bashar al-Assad. 



> In terms of origin, since 2012 by far the biggest national group has been those fleeing Syria. In 2014 Syrians made up 128,000 of the total asylum applicants – followed by 47,000 from Eritrea, 43,000 from Afghanistan, 38,000 from Kosovo, 31,000 from Serbia, then Pakistan, Iraq and Nigeria.




http://www.smh.com.au/world/everyth...-european-refugee-crisis-20150904-gjfqs9.html

Worth a read you might learn something


----------



## trainspotter (7 September 2015)

orr said:


> Gosh alright... Your learning as we go here it appears spotter.
> 
> Just with regard the Shia in the South and kurds in the North, a detailed reportage of that era is well documented in Robert Fisks, superlative 'The Great War for Civilisation'. In the South the swamps were drained to destroy the ancient way of life of the people there because of the threat they posed at the end of the first gulf war when they were promised support from the US to rise up against Saddam, They were left to hang out to dry. It being obvious to the  Pentagon that the Baathist were the only viable way of holding Iraq together. A fact ignored by the second Bush. The Kurds, regionally isolated and a minority group went under the jack boot as an example, Gassed with British supplied chemicals.
> 
> ...




Baahahahaaa .... seriously orr? You are defending the indefensible. Back on topic please. Abbott has sent Peter Dutton to see if Australia can lend a hand to the EU crisis. Now this will be a slapstick moment I am sure !

http://www.news.com.au/national/pri...n-refugee-influx/story-fncynjr2-1227515809851


----------



## McLovin (7 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> I assume you mean by plane




No, I mean by boat. The MO is too find the closest Australian territory inside the migration zone then notify the Navy/Border Force/Facebook of your presence. An illegal immigrant avoids the authorities. What happens along the US/Mexico border is illegal immigration. We would have a big problem if people started reaching the mainland and then dispersing.


----------



## sydboy007 (7 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Baahahahaaa .... seriously orr? You are defending the indefensible. Back on topic please. Abbott has sent Peter Dutton to see if Australia can lend a hand to the EU crisis. Now this will be a slapstick moment I am sure !
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/pri...n-refugee-influx/story-fncynjr2-1227515809851




Hopefully he has some staff going with him.  I hate for him to get lost on the way.

I rarely agree with Paul Sheehan, but his article in the SMH today made sense to me.

i think you'd find a decent level of support in increasing the refugee intake of Christian Syrians.  I loathe the idea of religious discrimination, but if it's a choice of doing that and helping more people, or not, then I'll choose the slightly least bad option that benefits the most people.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Hopefully he has some staff going with him.  I hate for him to get lost on the way.
> 
> I rarely agree with Paul Sheehan, but his article in the SMH today made sense to me.
> 
> i think you'd find a decent level of support in increasing the refugee intake of Christian Syrians.  I loathe the idea of religious discrimination, but if it's a choice of doing that and helping more people, or not, then I'll choose the slightly least bad option that benefits the most people.




Well, in a Muslim controlled area, "Christians" are more likely to be persecuted.

What about people who don't profess any religion ? They are probably the second most likely to be persecuted as some would say "you are either Muslims or you are our enemy".

Proof of religion may be difficult to obtain if they go down that path. People have been known to lie about their religion to just get out of the place.


----------



## explod (7 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Hence I revert back to my original statement about how Russia is backing Syria / ISIS and the U.S. is leading the coalition to overthrow the incumbent government led by President Bashar al-Assad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As the US were behind the change of regime in the Ukraine and as all becomes quiet on the plane shot down as evidence mounts that this new (not democratically elected)  mob were behind the tragedy.   Again it is to suppress Russia from supplying oil and gas. 

Some even suggest that the drop in oil price was part of it too.   However this is backfiring as Russia's production costs are still below recent lows and US fracking companies are against the wall. 

Rolleyes back. 

The money Ralf.


----------



## Tisme (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> Your post .
> 
> Rather interesting how* the number of unauthorised arrivals by plane continues to be high,*
> 
> ...




I don't know if you have ever watched e.g.  Border Patrol and witnessed the unauthorised arrivals?

Look it's pretty obvious you are just arguing for the sake of arguing ... you aren't articulating anything that makes sense.

In this instance you should maybe take the time to learn how people are attempting to enter and give your LNP dogma a rest.... you'll never be as right wing as I am.


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> I don't know if you have ever watched e.g.  Border Patrol and witnessed the unauthorised arrivals?
> 
> Look it's pretty obvious you are just arguing for the sake of arguing ... you aren't articulating anything that makes sense.
> 
> In this instance you should maybe take the time to learn how people are attempting to enter and give your LNP dogma a rest.... you'll never be as right wing as I am.




What was all the rhetoric about?

Normally those sort of tactics you have adopted in this case, indicates you have been beaten into submission and that you do not have the answers but you would rather try to belittle the discussion...Argue for the sake of arguing??????.....I thought this was what this ASF was all about.

If you don't have the answers it is always better not to say anything.

Sometimes we win and some times we lose.....I like to be on the winning side.


----------



## luutzu (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> ...
> 
> Sometimes we win and some times we lose.....I like to be on the winning side.




You must also like taking on the impossible too noco. Labor probably just gave you 10,000 extra reasons to not vote for them, but still you're only one vote and the way the economy is going, Abbott will need another 10 million votes to stay in office.


----------



## DB008 (7 September 2015)

*Refugee crisis in Europe: ‘Something fishy’ among migrant flood as discarded ID papers appear​*


> A PAKISTANI identity card in the bushes, a Bangladeshi one in a cornfield. A torn Iraqi driver’s license bearing the photo of a man with a Saddam-style moustache, another one with a scarfed woman displaying a shy smile.
> Documents scattered only metres from Serbia’s border with Hungary provide evidence that many of the migrants flooding Europe to escape war or poverty are scrapping their true nationalities and likely assuming new ones, just as they enter the European Union.
> 
> Many of those travellers believe that using a fake document ”” or having none at all ”” gives them a better of chance of receiving asylum in Germany and other western European states. That’s because the surest route to asylum is to be a refugee from war and not an economic migrant fleeing poverty. That fact has led to a huge influx of people claiming to be Syrian.
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/refugee-crisis-in-europe-something-fishy-among-migrant-flood-as-discarded-id-papers-appear/story-fnh81p7g-1227515922792​


----------



## DB008 (7 September 2015)

*ISIS SMUGGLER: 'WE WILL USE REFUGEE CRISIS TO INFILTRATE WEST'​*


> As the migrant-train standoff entered its second day in Hungary, with thousands of mostly Syrian refugees seeking passage to Germany, it’s time the West recognized this shift in Muslim populations for what it is, say American activists who have been warning of a “fifth column” for years.
> 
> Author Robert Spencer wrote Sept. 4 in Front Page Magazine, “This is no longer just a ‘refugee crisis.’ This is a hijrah.”
> 
> ...




http://www.wnd.com/2015/09/isis-smuggler-we-will-use-refugee-crisis-to-infiltrate-west/?source=​


----------



## Macquack (7 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Stop fooling yourself explod. You have an opinion that is totally distorted on BS and untruths. *Post up some FACTS *and not just your barstool barrister opines.





trainspotter said:


> Africa not being given it's fair share of U.S. military interference? Have you not *watched the movie "Black Hawk Down" ?*







trainspotter said:


> *Just stick to the quantifiable FACTS please*



Hollywood movies are considered gospell by training wheels.
And to use another of your quotes


trainspotter said:


> *Baahahahaaa*


----------



## drsmith (7 September 2015)

On the goings on in Europe, an interesting post by Michael Smith.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...eeking-grateful-model-citizens-pigs-****.html

EDIT:

the link doesn't get past the internal forum language checker.

We all know though what 4-letter word comes after pigs.

A minority perhaps, but they do themselves no favours.


----------



## noco (7 September 2015)

DB008 said:


> *ISIS SMUGGLER: 'WE WILL USE REFUGEE CRISIS TO INFILTRATE WEST'​*
> 
> 
> http://www.wnd.com/2015/09/isis-smuggler-we-will-use-refugee-crisis-to-infiltrate-west/?source=​




I have been harping on this for years how that Muslims movement were infiltrating the Western World to develop world domination....I was even reprimanded by the moderators for using the world "INFILTRATION".

It is a world wide plot to create havoc and financial strain on the Western economy.....The intimidation and persecution by Islamic radicals is their modus operandi to force people to seek refuge in the Western world with full knowledge that they are are Muslims and will set up their own ghettos, mosques and schools as they have done in the UK.....They have virtually taken over whole towns and gaining strength every day.

This is all happening under the noses of the useless United Nations who sit back and turn a blind eye to it all as they, the UN, also want world government and may well be working hand in glove with what is going on....That Ban-Ki-Moon is a confessed and well known Greenie and I would not put anything passed him.....Greenies are really communists in sheep's clothing and it has recently been established that Communism and Islam are sympathetic to each other.

I am so pleased I am now in my twilight  years and have lived in the era I have, but I fear for my children, my grand children and my great grand children


----------



## luutzu (7 September 2015)

noco said:


> I have been harping on this for years how that Muslims movement were infiltrating the Western World to develop world domination....I was even reprimanded by the moderators for using the world "INFILTRATION".
> 
> It is a world wide plot to create havoc and financial strain on the Western economy.....The intimidation and persecution by Islamic radicals is their modus operandi to force people to seek refuge in the Western world with full knowledge that they are are Muslims and will set up their own ghettos, mosques and schools as they have done in the UK.....They have virtually taken over whole towns and gaining strength every day.
> 
> ...




Yes, I too fear for your children and grandchildren 

Sorry... that was a cheap shot. But in a way, I do.


----------



## qldfrog (8 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/world/everyth...-european-refugee-crisis-20150904-gjfqs9.html



trainspotter,
the figures quoted there are drastically different from the ones I got [and quoted previously] where less than 20% of 2015 refugees applications were syrians.
As my figure comes come from the official records, are 2015 and published by a very left wing newspaper, I tend to trust them more than the figure quoted there:
 a simple non biaised view at the columns filmed will also, if not reliably, show a majority of non arab types (but yes True I am sure you will find black, indian or blond blue eyes  syrians and in the sweet lollipop world of some, races do not exists so how do I dare....

that is for the eastern  arrivals, no syrian in the boats off Libya
My point all along is that we are witnessing an 80/20 economic migration, 
yes some are refugees and should deserve the respect and help expected but the mass of the invasion is a culture et economy destroying economic migration, 
60% of Swedish welfare goes to migrants currently.Imagine the figures at the end of the year for these high taxing countries and the bloodbath ahead in the coming years.no nice ending there
another 5 billions to go....


----------



## Tisme (8 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> . Abbott has sent Peter Dutton to see if Australia can lend a hand to the EU crisis. Now this will be a slapstick moment I am sure !




Like sending Simple Jack (Tropic Thunder Movie) to a Mensa convention.


----------



## Tisme (8 September 2015)

So why has the govt had an epiphany about the welfare of asylum seekers? Are the Syrian refugees gold plated or something? 

I'd hate to be there when the people jailed on Nauru and Manus find out they are forgotten trash.


----------



## Ijustnewit (8 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> So why has the govt had an epiphany about the welfare of asylum seekers? Are the Syrian refugees gold plated or something?
> 
> I'd hate to be there when the people jailed on Nauru and Manus find out they are forgotten trash.




No , they are giving in to pressure by the looney Left and the media hype  . The only thing Gold plated about these refugees is they seem to well off enough to pay their way through many Countries to seek the riches on offer in Germany. 
As to the ones on Manus and Nauru they made their bed and now must be cursing they didn't wait a bit longer and head to Europe . In fact I will bet they we see those under our detention  watch  wanting to go back home so they can try their luck in Europe.


----------



## luutzu (8 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> So why has the govt had an epiphany about the welfare of asylum seekers? Are the Syrian refugees gold plated or something?
> 
> I'd hate to be there when the people jailed on Nauru and Manus find out they are forgotten trash.




Syrian are the preferred refugees now because we're about to extend the freedom air campaign operation Dove and target practice upon Syria to free the Syrian and rebuild its democracy and bringing it freedom... So Syrians fleeing are genuine refugees fleeing the bad people we're about to bomb... They fit the narrative.


----------



## noco (8 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> Syrian are the preferred refugees now because we're about to extend the freedom air campaign operation Dove and target practice upon Syria to free the Syrian and rebuild its democracy and bringing it freedom... So Syrians fleeing are genuine refugees fleeing the bad people we're about to bomb... They fit the narrative.




Do you think these refuges that may come to Australia will  be Muslim, Christians or infidels?


----------



## drsmith (8 September 2015)

If we were to have a one-off increase our humanitarian intake over the current Syrian situation, it should be offset through reductions in the humanitarian intake over future years in order to manage the cost.

The current hyperbole of ever increasing numbers without consideration of the cost is disappointing, in particular from individuals within the Liberal party which presently are managing to outstrip Labor and the Greens.


----------



## luutzu (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> Do you think these refuges that may come to Australia will  be Muslim, Christians or infidels?




They're all Syrian, 90% will be Christians, the other 10% is Muslim-lite who have many Christian friends


----------



## DB008 (8 September 2015)

noco said:


> I have been harping on this for years how that Muslims movement were infiltrating the Western World to develop world domination....I was even reprimanded by the moderators for using the world "INFILTRATION".




I now prefer to use the word 'Trojan horse'...

Reports coming out that it will cost Germany $6.6 Billion for their refugee/humanitarian role in this.

Think the Muslim ghettos in parts of France and England are bad, wait a few years and then have a look in Germany...


----------



## DB008 (8 September 2015)

*Germany to Spend $6.6 Billion on 800,000 Refugees and Migrants*​



> Germany will spend around $6.6 billion to cope with some 800,000 migrants and refugees expected to have crossed into the country by the end of 2015, the government said early Monday.
> 
> The announcement by Chancellor Angela Merkel's coalition government came after Germany and neighboring Austria threw open their borders to the wave of refugees making their way north and west from the Middle East, Africa and elsewhere. Hungary has been letting the human tide move on after holding it up for days.
> 
> "We had to give a strong signal of humanity to show that Europe's values are valid also in difficult times. Hungary's handling of the crisis is unbearable," said Germany's Secretary-General Yasmin Fahimi.




http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/europes-border-crisis/billions-migrants-germany-spend-6-6b-800-000-newcomers-n422811​


----------



## IFocus (8 September 2015)

Ijustnewit said:


> No , they are giving in to pressure by the looney Left and the media hype  . The only thing Gold plated about these refugees is they seem to well off enough to pay their way through many Countries to seek the riches on offer in Germany.




The pressure is coming from within the Liberal party the loonie left haven't been that active all things considered IMHO.


----------



## DB008 (8 September 2015)

*Syrian Refugees Protest to Leave Uruguay, Say Too Costly​*



> Syrian refugees protested outside the Uruguayan presidency Monday to demand authorities help them leave for other countries, saying the nation that gave them sanctuary is too expensive and they have scant economic opportunity.
> 
> Uruguay welcomed the 42 refugees fleeing Syria's civil war in October 2014, but the five families now say officials promised more than they could deliver.
> 
> ...




http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/syrian-refugees-protest-leave-uruguay-33584821​


----------



## DB008 (8 September 2015)

Photo on Facebook - taken in Budapest 

Translation - Hungarians starve while the refugees throw out food


----------



## luutzu (8 September 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Syrian Refugees Protest to Leave Uruguay, Say Too Costly​*
> 
> 
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/syrian-refugees-protest-leave-uruguay-33584821​




I'm sure you'll find plenty more such stories and such people (I'm taking the article at face value here).
Among those refugees, there's a bunch of psychos, rapists, wife beaters, ingrates and generally those of criminal or other anti-social traits no one but their mother would like... there's also a lot of good or at least normal people seeking refuge too - you know, running away from the jets, the bombs from Assad and ISIS crazies... and soon the drones from us. 

But don't worry... soon enough the media will turn and there'll be plenty of "examples" of scary muslims pretending to be refugees. Already some politicians are saying that if they let the refugees in, ISIS will win. Can't let ISIS win now can we?

I bet you within a few days there'll be articles or commentary about how well dressed the refugees are... maybe they all dress in newer clothes and not rags. Why is that? Not because volunteers and charities gave them clothes though... and god forbid some rich Europeans thought to give a few of their Luis Vuitton bags. That's going to make headlines at some organisations.


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

Those Luis Vuitton bags get around.




No prizes for guessing where that was, or when.


----------



## sydboy007 (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> If we were to have a one-off increase our humanitarian intake over the current Syrian situation, it should be offset through reductions in the humanitarian intake over future years in order to manage the cost.
> 
> The current hyperbole of ever increasing numbers without consideration of the cost is disappointing, in particular from individuals within the Liberal party which presently are managing to outstrip Labor and the Greens.




Hmm.  You mean just like the rampant immigration we've had over the last 15 years or so.  Like the net 400k+ of long term arrivals into the country back in 2009, or the lowly net 291K over the year to July.

I'm so glad we've somehow worked out how absorb the cost of this immigration policy that is part of the laberals way of doing things.  Population ponzi = real GDP growth = we can lie about the true state of the economy.  The truth starts to look a lot less palatable when we start to view things from a per capita perspective, the motorways that feel like parking lots, the public transport that feels like a sardine can, the announced highest ever infrastructure budget that is actually spending less on a per capita basis.  For some reason I thought these were all costs.

I don't seem to recall when any of the laberals have come out and explained how we're going to pay for the kind of population growth that is still running at just under twice the long term average of ~160K long term arrivals on an annual basis.

Are you saying the ones that come by planes are cost free?


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2015)

I'm so glad God has a handle these matters:  Just sit back and wait for the second coming to sort things out.


----------



## sydboy007 (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> Those Luis Vuitton bags get around.
> 
> No prizes for guessing where that was, or when.




Geeze Doc.  Are you part of the fashion police now.  Best they not go through Italy or France as it would likely be confiscated and they'd be issues with a large fine.

Just look at the seam of the bag and the way the pattern doesn't quite match.  You'd never get that on a real LV bag.  One of the easiest ways to spot a fake.


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> Those Luis Vuitton bags get around.
> 
> .




Picked up one just like that in New York for $12, imagine how miffed I was to see the exact same thing in Malaysia Chinatown MkII, for $9 ...I hate being ripped off.


----------



## noco (9 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm so glad God has a handle these matters:  Just sit back and wait for the second coming to sort things out.





Good to see someone with optimism...Lets hope he is right.


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Hmm.  You mean just like the rampant immigration we've had over the last 15 years or so.  Like the net 400k+ of long term arrivals into the country back in 2009, or the lowly net 291K over the year to July.
> 
> I'm so glad we've somehow worked out how absorb the cost of this immigration policy that is part of the laberals way of doing things.  Population ponzi = real GDP growth = we can lie about the true state of the economy.  The truth starts to look a lot less palatable when we start to view things from a per capita perspective, the motorways that feel like parking lots, the public transport that feels like a sardine can, the announced highest ever infrastructure budget that is actually spending less on a per capita basis.  For some reason I thought these were all costs.
> 
> ...



With regard to our humanitarian intake, what are you trying to justify with the above ?


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2015)

> The Coalition party room has agreed to accept 12,000 refugees from persecuted minorities and provide an extra $44 million in financial aid to help deal with the Syrian refugee crisis.
> 
> It is not clear whether the full increase will happen this year, or over a number of years.
> 
> ...




Obviously it pays to be a religious person who is colour blind to get into our country. Irreligious people who pass the Ishihara test need not apply, especially those with real trade skills, Nordic skin and a pommy accent.


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Picked up one just like that in New York for $12, imagine how miffed I was to see the exact same thing in Malaysia Chinatown MkII, for $9 ...I hate being ripped off.



Regardless of whether it's real or fake, it doesn't belong on the dock at Christmas Island as the product of its owner paying an illegal people smuggling syndicate for the boat trip to get there.


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> Regardless of whether it's real or fake, it doesn't belong on the dock at Christmas Island as the product of its owner paying an illegal people smuggling syndicate for the boat trip to get there.




Might have a bom6 in it !!!


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Might have a bom6 in it !!!



If you still don't approve of the current government's policy mix to stop the boats which the opposition has now adopted to the point of accepting turn backs as a policy option, what would cut it on your prevention index ?

You've had plenty of time to think about it.


----------



## sydboy007 (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> With regard to our humanitarian intake, what are you trying to justify with the above ?




Just highlighting that all immigration has a cost. That we don't seem to have a policy that says those already here should be better off from immigration, not imposed on by it with congestion, house price inflation, and generally lower standards of living.

I'd argue much of the $45B spent on upgrading the east coast electricity networks was due to rampant population growth.  The need to build new roads and public transport is all due to rampant immigration.  

Congestion lowers productivity. Land price inflation lowers productivity.

From Howard onwards they're all big Australia. When do we realise it's populate AND perish.


----------



## noco (9 September 2015)

I listened to a report on TV regarding the drowning of that 3 year toddler which the Greens mad so much ado about it all.

That toddlers father lived in Turkey and was employed there for 3 years....This guy received money from one of his relatives in Canada to get on a leaky boat.

How could he possibly be a refugee fleeing from persecution...They were quite safe in Turkey but wanted to go to Germany for economic reasons to get his teeth fixed under Germany's generous medical scheme.

I stand corrected if what I state is wrong.


----------



## orr (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> If you still don't approve of the current government's policy mix to stop the boats which the opposition has now adopted to the point of accepting turn backs as a policy option, what would cut it on your prevention index ?
> 
> You've had plenty of time to think about it.




Are the Opposition signed up to the active protection by cover up, of child abuse? Along with a $55 million scheme to relocate 4, count them 4, refos? 

And that Louis Vuitton knock off, which you would have much preferred to of be found floating in the Aegean, was actually owned by the wife of a fella who did quite a bit of work for ' Jordanian Trucking Company' in the very early 2000's. A bit of 'chicken feed', so to speak, coming home to roost.

AWB kickbacks, Royal Commish anyone?


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Just highlighting that all immigration has a cost. That we don't seem to have a policy that says those already here should be better off from immigration, not imposed on by it with congestion, house price inflation, and generally lower standards of living.
> 
> I'd argue much of the $45B spent on upgrading the east coast electricity networks was due to rampant population growth.  The need to build new roads and public transport is all due to rampant immigration.
> 
> ...



So your against immigration broadly on the basis of managing population growth ?


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

orr said:


> Are the Opposition signed up to the active protection by cover up, of child abuse? Along with a $55 million scheme to relocate 4, count them 4, refos?
> 
> And that Louis Vuitton knock off, which you would have much preferred to of be found floating in the Aegean, was actually owned by the wife of a fella who did quite a bit of work for ' Jordanian Trucking Company' in the very early 2000's. A bit of 'chicken feed', so to speak, coming home to roost.
> 
> AWB kickbacks, Royal Commish anyone?



I don't want to see anyone drowning anywhere nor do I want to see people smugglers putting the lives of others at risk by plying their illegal activity. I also think it's wrong to encourage people to country shop through this illegal trade for economic reasons.

Take a look at what is actually happening in Europe with regard to boat arrivals. It's following a familiar path. The UNHCR has provided the following excellent summary.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html


----------



## sydboy007 (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> So your against immigration broadly on the basis of managing population growth ?




Very much so. To argue against humanitarian immigration because of the cost, while supporting immigration via the A380 doesn't add up, since it too is very costly.

I'm not saying zero population growth, but I'd be much happier with something around 50K of long term arrivals a year, which is around one third the long term average.


----------



## luutzu (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> I don't want to see anyone drowning anywhere nor do I want to see people smugglers putting the lives of others at risk by plying their illegal activity. I also think it's wrong to encourage people to country shop through this illegal trade for economic reasons.
> 
> Take a look at what is actually happening in Europe with regard to boat arrivals. It's following a familiar path. The UNHCR has provided the following excellent summary.
> 
> http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html




You're missing the point.

if their country weren't bombed in the first place, they wouldn't be forced to flee.
Once forced to flee and restart their life again... if you were them, where would you prefer to flee to? Just get a few KMs away or go where there's a brighter and more secure future; go places where the chances of being bomb are very very low. Wouldn't you?

But of course you knew that... you just pretend you'd be more honest and more honourable.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> Very much so. To argue against humanitarian immigration because of the cost, while supporting immigration via the A380 doesn't add up, since it too is very costly.
> 
> I'm not saying zero population growth, but I'd be much happier with something around 50K of long term arrivals a year, which is around one third the long term average.




This government was so keen on a CBA for the NBN, I'd really like to see one on population growth.


----------



## noco (9 September 2015)

Beaucays to Tony Abbott over the refugee intake.....brick bats to Bill Shorten....He is still not happy....

Would anything make Shorten happy?


https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/29476336/praise-for-pm-over-refugee-announcement/

The federal government's decision to permanently resettle 12,000 refugees from the conflict in Syria and Iraq has been welcomed by their backers in Australia.

"It is an important first step and shows to the world that Australia is willing to support those who are in great need," said Refugee Council of Australia president Phil Glendenning.

Even the Greens gave Prime Minister Tony Abbott the thumbs-up.

"He has made a difference to the lives of 12,000 people," Greens leader Richard Di Natale told reporters in Canberra.

Amnesty International described the pledge as a positive demonstration of leadership.

"But there's no reason this number can't be increased to 20,000 people," its Australian refugee coordinator Graham Thom said.

Oxfam said it was a bold move in the right direction while praising the government's "u-turn" on taking more refugees.

*Federal Labor welcomed the intake announcement, but leader Bill Shorten said the $44 million earmarked to support 240,000 people in refugee camps fell short of what was required.

He also said Australia should offer additional refugee places on a needs basis, without qualification or discrimination.*

NSW Premier Mike Baird welcomed the federal government's "bold and generous decision" to resettle the refugees.

"People have united behind the simple idea that our boundless plains are here to be shared, especially with those that are in desperate need," he said.

Mr Baird told NSW Parliament his government is in "active talks" with the commonwealth about the details of the additional intake.

"I applaud this generous decision and reiterate that NSW is eager to do more than our fair share to assist the commonwealth," Mr Baird said during question time on Wednesday.

He had been in talks with other premiers about what the states could do to supplement the commonwealth's announcement of $44 million in financial aid for refugee agencies, he said.


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> If you still don't approve of the current government's policy mix to stop the boats which the opposition has now adopted to the point of accepting turn backs as a policy option, what would cut it on your prevention index ?
> 
> You've had plenty of time to think about it.




You continue to be presumptive on a solution to a problem that you devised as requiring a dehumanising solution. It's not up to me to solve your dilemmas. Not all of us are binary thinkers and fellow sheep. 

How'se the promotion of adult content to children going? "You've had plenty of time to think about it". 

All of a sudden I'm reminded of  that line in Happy Gilmore uttered by Shooter McGavin about what he eats for breakfast ....


----------



## trainspotter (9 September 2015)

Macquack said:


> Hollywood movies are considered gospell by training wheels.
> And to use another of your quotes




Battle of Mogadishu - On October 3rd, 1993, 120 Delta Force Commandos and Army Rangers were dropped into the heart of Mogadishu, Somalia. Their mission was a fast daylight raid to kidnap lead terrorist Mohammed Farrah Aidid, who had been killing U.N. workers delivering food to starving Somalis. Aidid’s goal was to control the country by controlling all the food.

The U.S. raid went off with clockwork precision, until the unexpected happened. Two of the U.S. Black Hawk helicopters, the soldiers’ airlift out, were shot down. The mission abruptly changed to a rescue operation. Surrounded by Somali militia, a fierce firefight ensued that left American troops trapped and fighting for their lives. The ordeal left 18 American men dead, 70 wounded, with an estimated 3,000 Somalis casualties.




> Bahahahahahaaaa




INDEED ! It was to evidence Plods supposition that America was not involved with Africa ... something about money Ralf .... Baaaahahhahahahaaaa


----------



## trainspotter (9 September 2015)

explod said:


> As the US were behind the change of regime in the Ukraine and as all becomes quiet on the plane shot down as evidence mounts that this new (not democratically elected)  mob were behind the tragedy.   *Again it is to suppress Russia from supplying oil and gas*.
> 
> Some even suggest that the drop in oil price was part of it too.   However this is backfiring as Russia's production costs are still below recent lows and US fracking companies are against the wall.
> 
> ...




I am not sure as to where you are getting your information from but it is BS at it's finest. America and the EU sanctioned Russia because of it's involvement with the Ukraine and not the other way round 

Go here and read about Russia and it's oil projects

1) http://www.strategyand.pwc.com/glob...ticle-display/capital-projects-oil-gas-russia

2) http://www.oilgas-events.com/market...l-and-gas-projects-to-watch-in-2015/801762176

3) http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oi...ussian-Partnership-Mean-For-World-Energy.html

Go here to read about Russia's involvement of the downing of MH17

1) http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/17/how-we-know-russia-shot-down-mh17.html

2) http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...blame-game-continues-over-who-shot-down-plane

3) http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...wreckage-of-mh17/story-fnizu68q-1227444676268


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> if their country weren't bombed in the first place, they wouldn't be forced to flee.
> Once forced to flee and restart their life again... if you were them, where would you prefer to flee to? Just get a few KMs away or go where there's a brighter and more secure future; go places where the chances of being bomb are very very low. Wouldn't you?
> ...



Transit countries such as Greece and Indonesia are a few km away ?

People movement is determined by both push factors and pull factors. Push factors were Labor's first effort at denial when the boats started to come after softening the former Howard government's policy stance. 

What is happening in Europe at the moment has a strong element of pull factors as it did in Australia under Labor. The example that Noco has highlighted illustrates this and the tragic consequences for that family.


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> You continue to be presumptive on a solution to a problem that you devised as requiring a dehumanising solution. It's not up to me to solve your dilemmas. Not all of us are binary thinkers and fellow sheep.
> 
> How'se the promotion of adult content to children going? "You've had plenty of time to think about it".
> 
> All of a sudden I'm reminded of  that line in Happy Gilmore uttered by Shooter McGavin about what he eats for breakfast ....



You're the one who doesn't like the current government's policies in stopping the boats.

What's your alternative beyond just complaining ?


----------



## Macquack (9 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> INDEED ! It was to evidence Plods supposition that America was not involved with Africa ... *something about money Ralf .... Baaaahahhahahahaaaa*




Lose the "*Baaaahahhahahahaaaa"*, you big mouthed capitalist pig and failed property developer. Does "*Voyager Homes*" ring a bell?

Your "cut & paste" is of more merit than my "cut & paste".

Explod is a decent  and objective community thinker, not like your self engrossing self.

I will buy explod's view any day above your crying poor retailer syndrome bull****.


----------



## trainspotter (9 September 2015)

Macquack said:


> Lose the "*Baaaahahhahahahaaaa"*, you big mouthed capitalist pig and failed property developer. Does "*Voyager Homes*" ring a bell?
> 
> Your "cut & paste" is of more merit than my "cut & paste".
> 
> ...




Bahahahhaahaaaha is that it Macquack? Bahahahhahahahaaa *gasp* hahahahahhaaaaa name calling at it's finest.

You can ring your own bell anytime you want Macquack and I am sure that is what you do best.

I never called explods integrity or character into question. He made specific statements that did not have a ring of truth to them. Meh ! Evidenced with FACTS.

I have often agreed with the plod on more than one occasion over many years of being a member of this forum.

Bahahahahhahaahaaaaaaaaaaaa


----------



## Tisme (10 September 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Bahahahhaahaaaha is that it Macquack? Bahahahhahahahaaa *gasp* hahahahahhaaaaa name calling at it's finest.
> 
> You can ring your own bell anytime you want Macquack and I am sure that is what you do best.
> 
> ...





I take it you two are really cobbers?


----------



## noco (10 September 2015)

What has the world come to, to allow these barbarians to interpret a religious book to satisfy their own sexual needs with girls as young as 9 years old being raped and they interpret the Koran as being OK. 

And that toothless tiger the  United Nations sit on their hands and do nothing except ask for more money from the Western World.....Requets more money to put more strain om our finances

We really need our Kevvie to become the UN Secretary General....Go Kevviie to these ISIS an DASH radicals and say, I'm Kevin and I am here to help convert you back to Christianity.......I don't know what the answer is and I don't think Kevvie would either.  


https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/29482781/iraqi-sex-slave-shot-dead-isis-commander/


----------



## SirRumpole (10 September 2015)

noco said:


> What has the world come to, to allow these barbarians to interpret a religious book to satisfy their own sexual needs with girls as young as 9 years old being raped and they interpret the Koran as being OK.
> 
> And that toothless tiger the  United Nations sit on their hands and do nothing except ask for more money from the Western World.....Requets more money to put more strain om our finances
> 
> ...




Think you may be right on this one noco.

RC's into child abuse in Christian schools, apparently the Muslims have escaped this time, but if you have a religious text endorsing child sex slavery you can bet it's happening in the real world.


----------



## noco (10 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Think you may be right on this one noco.
> 
> RC's into child abuse in Christian schools, apparently the Muslims have escaped this time, but if you have a religious text endorsing child sex slavery you can bet it's happening in the real world.




Whilst I must confess I am agnostic, I do believe Christianity, with all its faults, is the lesser of two evils when it comes to radical Islamic.


----------



## trainspotter (10 September 2015)

noco said:


> Whilst I must confess I am agnostic, I do believe Christianity, with all its faults, is the lesser of two evils when it comes to radical Islamic.




Yes noco , one has roots in it's past and the other one is rooted in the past.


----------



## Tisme (10 September 2015)

noco said:


> What has the world come to, to allow these barbarians to interpret a religious book to satisfy their own sexual needs with girls as young as 9 years old being raped and they interpret the Koran as being OK.
> 
> And that toothless tiger the  United Nations sit on their hands and do nothing except ask for more money from the Western World.....Requets more money to put more strain om our finances
> 
> ...




My (English) wife lived amongst the Arabs in her early childhood and the mental scars never left her of witnessing the low acts those cultures were prone to in those days. The toilet habits, the unwashed depravity, the promiscuity of men with boys, all out in the open and the only thing between her and them, a British armed forces and chainwire fences. Allah sure works in mysterious ways.


----------



## sydboy007 (10 September 2015)

noco said:


> What has the world come to, to allow these barbarians to interpret a religious book to satisfy their own sexual needs with girls as young as 9 years old being raped and they interpret the Koran as being OK.
> 
> And that toothless tiger the  United Nations sit on their hands and do nothing except ask for more money from the Western World.....Requets more money to put more strain om our finances
> 
> ...




It seems India can at times be just as backward, and they don't really have religion as a justification, just an antiquated caste system.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/petitio...t-gets-175000-signatures-20150831-gjc38r.html



> The human rights group began the petition last week after 23-year-old Meenakshi Kumari, her 15-year-old sister and their family were forced to flee their northern India village in May after their brother eloped with a higher caste, married woman.
> 
> An un-elected village council, dominated by upper caste "Jat" men, in Uttar Pradesh state on July 30 allegedly ordered the two "Dalit" sisters be raped and paraded naked with their faces blackened as punishment for their brother's actions.




But then are we much better in the west?  How often do sordid stories come out of the sports locker rooms and prestigious private schools?  Are we just better at keeping it out of the public eye?


----------



## No Trust (10 September 2015)

Fully agree with your stance, Europe particularly London has shown that most of these groups are there for an easy ride on welfare and there is *absolutely no attempt *to integrate; rather the opposite, extremist religious views are being pushed on the country that showed its kind hand.

Europe has paid the price, now Australia will too 



Fugazi said:


> I'm sure most will agree that to give genuine asylum seekers a chance to carry on a normal, productive life is a moral responsibility, but it's a short step from the sublime to the ridiculous.
> 
> I moved to Brissy from London nearly 3 years ago because I didn't want to bring my kids up in a place that was rapidly being over-run by economic migrants, spongers and downright criminals who's first and last words of English are 'Asylum' and 'Benefit'.
> 
> ...


----------



## luutzu (10 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> Transit countries such as Greece and Indonesia are a few km away ?
> 
> People movement is determined by both push factors and pull factors. Push factors were Labor's first effort at denial when the boats started to come after softening the former Howard government's policy stance.
> 
> What is happening in Europe at the moment has a strong element of pull factors as it did in Australia under Labor. The example that Noco has highlighted illustrates this and the tragic consequences for that family.




Pretty sure was replying to fact that refugees weren't happy with staying in Turkey - a few Kms away from Syria and IS?

Saw some headline that Turkey might be heading towards civil war soon. And Greece... have you seen Greece? The ancient ruins and the modern economic ruins? They're refugees, they know ruins when they see one.

Anyway, point was... if you live in a flood prone or bushfire prone area and your house got washed or burnt down once... you'd probably want to build your new house somewhere higher and less bushwhacked if you're forced to rebuild and relocate.. It's what normal human being would do.


----------



## luutzu (10 September 2015)

No Trust said:


> Fully agree with your stance, Europe particularly London has shown that most of these groups are there for an easy ride on welfare and there is *absolutely no attempt *to integrate; rather the opposite, extremist religious views are being pushed on the country that showed its kind hand.
> 
> Europe has paid the price, now Australia will too




So Fugazi... were you an economic or a "moral" migrant to Australia? A bit extreme to seek a better life for your children all the way down under... could have just moved a few suburbs away right? And you seek it in Queensland? 


----
 Originally Posted by Fugazi  View Post
I'm sure most will agree that to give genuine asylum seekers a chance to carry on a normal, productive life is a moral responsibility, but it's a short step from the sublime to the ridiculous.

I moved to Brissy from London nearly 3 years ago because I didn't want to bring my kids up in a place that was rapidly being over-run by economic migrants, spongers and downright criminals who's first and last words of English are 'Asylum' and 'Benefit'.

London is rapidly going down the pan because of a combination of ridiculous European legislation that opened the floodgates, and the fact that it is just plain bloody difficult to tell who is genuine and who is a crook.

I'm proud to have become an Australian citizen last week, and I would hate to see this fantastic country fall into the same trap. Better to be conservative with the nations compassion and go to whatever lengths are necessary to ensure the right people are getting the help they need, than to risk the whole country suffering because a few politicians don't want to be criticised for being harsh.


----------



## drsmith (10 September 2015)

Trust Gillian Triggs to suggest actions that would encourage the people smuggling trade,



> Professor Triggs urged the government to adopt a “practical” approach to resettling Syrian boat arrivals currently held in Australia, on Nauru and on Manus Island.
> 
> “They came, as the Australian government says, as unauthorised maritime arrivals but I think we have to simply move away from that thinking and accept that they are refugees asking our protection and they should be treated equally,” she said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...520890946?sv=9f21e8d48ddfc9811a5c6f12ee1147e5


----------



## drsmith (10 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> Pretty sure was replying to fact that refugees weren't happy with staying in Turkey - a few Kms away from Syria and IS?
> 
> Saw some headline that Turkey might be heading towards civil war soon. And Greece... have you seen Greece? The ancient ruins and the modern economic ruins? They're refugees, they know ruins when they see one.
> 
> Anyway, point was... if you live in a flood prone or bushfire prone area and your house got washed or burnt down once... you'd probably want to build your new house somewhere higher and less bushwhacked if you're forced to rebuild and relocate.. It's what normal human being would do.



Turkey occupied a reasonable area when I last checked a map.

 If they're not happy about staying in Turkey or Greece, how can they be happy transiting through these countries ?

 Asylum is about seeking refuge from persecution, not an economic leg up.


----------



## luutzu (10 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> Turkey occupied a reasonable area when I last checked a map.
> 
> If they're not happy about staying in Turkey or Greece, how can they be happy transiting through these countries ?
> 
> Asylum is about seeking refuge from persecution, not an economic leg up.




What would you do if you were them Smith?

Move to Turkey for a few years, wait til the bombs stopped, then move back home and dust off the house you were forced to abandon?


----------



## drsmith (10 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> What would you do if you were them Smith?
> 
> Move to Turkey for a few years, wait til the bombs stopped, then move back home and dust off the house you were forced to abandon?



Anyone logically would seek to advance their situation but as I said above, asylum is about seeking refuge from persecution, not an economic leg up.


----------



## orr (10 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> Turkey occupied a reasonable area when I last checked a map.
> 
> 
> 
> Asylum is about seeking refuge from persecution, .




yeah it's not as though Turkey has any history of persecuting any particular ethnic groups! ....oh oops hang on.


----------



## orr (10 September 2015)

No Trust said:


> Fully agree with your stance, Europe particularly London has shown that most of these groups are there for an easy ride on welfare and there is *absolutely no attempt *to integrate; rather the opposite, extremist religious views are being pushed on the country that showed its kind hand.
> 
> Europe has paid the price, now Australia will too




Where do you even begin with this 'pro forma' BNP tripe.... except to see it for what it is.


----------



## sydboy007 (10 September 2015)

orr said:


> Where do you even begin with this 'pro forma' BNP tripe.... except to see it for what it is.




There are parts of London and Paris now where a non muslim is definitely not welcome.

It's perfectly natural that people from various races will tends to settle in certain areas of a city, make things a bit like home.  You see this in cabramatta, or so many aussies used to congregate at earls court in London it was nick named Kangaroo valley.

Unfortunately the muslims seem to have annexed parts of London and Paris which is rather worrying.  If someone welcomes you into your house you don't go and claim one of the bedrooms as your own.


----------



## luutzu (10 September 2015)

sydboy007 said:


> There are parts of London and Paris now where a non muslim is definitely not welcome.
> 
> It's perfectly natural that people from various races will tends to settle in certain areas of a city, make things a bit like home.  You see this in cabramatta, or so many aussies used to congregate at earls court in London it was nick named Kangaroo valley.
> 
> Unfortunately the muslims seem to have annexed parts of London and Paris which is rather worrying.  If someone welcomes you into your house you don't go and claim one of the bedrooms as your own.




Really? Do they take over or it appear that way because they're "everywhere"?

There are places in Sydney that's completely foreign to me and it's not because I or my kind aren't welcome. Just I don't go there because I don't know anyone there. Took the family a few years back on a ferry to some northern beaches and it's like I'm overseas... the shopfronts are different and there's a lot of white people 

I think ethnic group live around each other more for business and cultural/language benefits than anything else. Imagine an Asian living in the Blue Mountains... where is he going to find rice? The 2kg bag from IGA won't do it.


----------



## qldfrog (11 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> Really? Do they take over or it appear that way because they're "everywhere"?
> 
> There are places in Sydney that's completely foreign to me and it's not because I or my kind aren't welcome. Just I don't go there because I don't know anyone there. Took the family a few years back on a ferry to some northern beaches and it's like I'm overseas... the shopfronts are different and there's a lot of white people
> 
> I think ethnic group live around each other more for business and cultural/language benefits than anything else. Imagine an Asian living in the Blue Mountains... where is he going to find rice? The 2kg bag from IGA won't do it.




Both orr and luutzu live in a dream land: either they are young: we all have been with the naive view of the world we all have then,
are trolls : in that case who care
Or are  from some ethnic background and see themselves attacked in each negative view on islam migrants: 
Well  I am not from anglosaxon roots either and am a migrant;
The difference is that I lived in a contry subject to a muslim invation, as i was poor, young I lived among the estates,
and what a shock for the idealistic left leaning kid: that is the key reason I sent immigration forms to this country;
No it is not a matter of numbers,or racism as many of the north african muslims are whiter than your average italian or greek:
 I was happy living in richmond among the vietnamese community when in richmond (Melb) 20y ago;
But muslims (in general: obviously I am sure you will find exception, but not along keen followers) are here to change you and if failing, to anihilate you:
 there are many areas in France at least (here I know what I am talking about) were you will not go and escape physically unharmed due to your colour/background, nor do cops/firemen/social security or any form of declared authority.
And I do not wish this to happen here, just hope it is not too late..;
As for migration overall whether white, christian or not; from both an economic and an ecological point of view it is not in my view welcome in Australia today.Yes we could have more unhabitants but not with the country managed as it is, and I do not see it changing soon...
All I have to say is said here, not much more I can add, orr and luzztzu can unleash....


----------



## bellenuit (11 September 2015)

Yep, just what they need.....

*Saudi Arabia offers Germany 200 mosques - one for every 100 refugees who arrived last weekend*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fugees-who-arrived-last-weekend-10495082.html


----------



## Tisme (11 September 2015)

bellenuit said:


> Yep, just what they need.....
> 
> *Saudi Arabia offers Germany 200 mosques - one for every 100 refugees who arrived last weekend*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fugees-who-arrived-last-weekend-10495082.html





Thank goodness we have a govt that doesn't let trojan horses into our country. No siree we aren't gonna be pushed around like we are rag doll in the USA's cubby house.


----------



## luutzu (11 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Both orr and luutzu live in a dream land: either they are young: we all have been with the naive view of the world we all have then,
> are trolls : in that case who care
> Or are  from some ethnic background and see themselves attacked in each negative view on islam migrants:
> Well  I am not from anglosaxon roots either and am a migrant;
> ...





Let me get on my high horse. ahem... ahem...

...'ight, fight and some of you may die; run and you will live. Then years from now, lying on your death bed... would you be willing to trade this day and all the days after that for just one chance, one chance to be back here and tell our enemies that they can take our lives... but they can... never... take... our FREEEE DDDOOOOOOMMMM..



While we're at it....

As I came in here, I heard those words... creator of Man, cradle of leadership... well be careful what kind of leaders you're making here. I don't know if Charlie's silence here is right or wrong, but I know he won't sell any body out to buy his future! Now that my friend is call integrity, that's courage, that's the stuff leaders are supposed to be made of.

Now I have come to the crossroads many time in my life... and without exception I knew what the right road was but I never took it. Why? Because it is too damn hard.


----
In the end, we have to decide whether we become the person the world tries to make of us; or become the person we want to be.

While youthful ignorance and idealism often comes hand in hand; cynicism and nastiness does not have to be the result of wisdom.


OK, getting myself a scotch.


----------



## DB008 (12 September 2015)

bellenuit said:


> Yep, just what they need.....
> 
> *Saudi Arabia offers Germany 200 mosques - one for every 100 refugees who arrived last weekend*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fugees-who-arrived-last-weekend-10495082.html




If that ain't a massive red flag to anyone, l don't know what is.

Saudi Arabia - lets help the refugees with food, water, a roof over their heads, medical supplies, etc, etc......na, let's build a mosque (s) and spread Islam.

I think Germany still has a massive chip on their shoulders from WW2 and feels obliged to help in the way they currently are.

They say history repeats itself. I have a feeling that this is going to end in tears...


----------



## qldfrog (12 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> ----
> In the end, we have to decide whether we become the person the world tries to make of us; or become the person we want to be.
> 
> While youthful ignorance and idealism often comes hand in hand; cynicism and nastiness does not have to be the result of wisdom.
> ...



Hope you enjoyed your scotch, something else you will not be able to do in many of the blessed countries
but please be sure that ignorance does not stick to you with old age; knowlege of truth can be so inconvenient
but yes i can agree with you: I too wished the world was  sweet dreams and lollipops, and that my youghtful desillusion could have been true: the world would be a happier place.

But however convenient and confortable the flat earth theory can be, there is no point pretending it is real;If you do, your ship will end up llost on the high sea at the end of the travel...


----------



## noco (12 September 2015)

The father of the little girl that was drowned, no sorry that was Bill Shortens gaff, it was actually a little 3 year old boy, was the people smuggler who was employed in Turkey for 3 years and he and his family were safe from persecution....So why did he leave Turkey? 



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...523338355?sv=5b4a6377bbe3617094aa9e0253e3bbbf

*A woman on the same boat as Alan Kurdi says the boy’s father is a people smuggler who begged her not to dob him in.

Zainab Abbas said Abdullah Kurdi had lied to the world after the image of his dead three-year-old son on a Turkish beach sparked a global outpouring of support for Syrian refugees.

“Yes, it was Abdullah Kurdi driving the boat,” Ms Abbas told Network Ten through her cousin Lara Tahseen today.

    More: Boatpeople barred from intake
    More: All compassion, no responsibility

A paramilitary police officer carries the lifeless body of Aylan Kurdi, three, on a beach in Turkey.

Ms Abbas also lost two children when the boat capsized shortly after leaving Bodrum for the Greek islands.

After the tragedy, Mr Kurdi told the media he took over steering the boat after the captain panicked and jumped ship.

But Ms Abbas said Mr Kurdi was the driver of the boat, and the man she paid to book her passage told her it would be safe because the driver was taking his wife and two children.

“When I lost my kids, I lost my life, how can he lie to the media?” her cousin Ms Tahseen said, translating for Ms Abbas.

“He said, ‘Please don’t dob me in.’ That was in the water.”

Ms Abbas said Mr Kurdi was speeding in the overcrowded boat, which did not have enough life jackets.

She said her husband told him to be careful just before the boat capsized, reportedly killing at least 12 people.

Ms Abbas is now in Iraq and her family has called on the federal government to include them in the 12,000 refugees Australia has pledged to take in.

Liberal senator Cory Bernardi came under fire this week, particularly from the Greens, for suggesting the Kurdi family had not fled Syria recently.

Senator Bernardi accused some “opportunistic” Syrians of seeking asylum in the West when they are “very safely ensconced” in the Middle East.*


----------



## noco (12 September 2015)

There is a new movement in Germany known as PEGIDA and are very anti refugee and Muslim.....The possibility of a Nazis uprising could well occur and if it does happen those refugees could well be in for a hard time.

It could well happen in Australia if things get out of hand.....I may not see it in my life time but there will be trouble ahead.....Clashes are already starting to occur and may gather intensity in the near future.  


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...523429166?sv=6fe359f5cf19e060527c4b781c1ec8cf

*“The megalomaniacal master race man is back,” 51-year-old former business executive Tatjana Festerling exhorts to an enthralled crowd of more than 12,000 banner-waving PEGIDA supporters in the eastern German city of Dresden this week.

The mother of two may look sweetly mild-mannered, but she previously had implored this weekly crowd of concerned Germans to think about new book burning and the totalitarian opinion of the Left and green supporters. Now she expands on the Nazi narrative when opposing the new local €37 million ($59m) centre for 700 refugees: “The new master race also builds again the concentration camps — here in Dresden!”

In this deepest recess of the former East Germany everyone fears the unthinkable: a return to the extremes that spawned their evil Third Reich. The simmering tensions that lie very close to the surface have risen sharply in the wake of the migrant crisis, particularly in the past three months and escalating in the past three weeks.

Even those who have strongly opposed the far-right message believe the enormous influx of unchecked migrants, most with divergent religious beliefs, will fuel even more extreme views and promote violence. German vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said yesterday Germany had registered 37,000 new asylum-seekers in the first eight days of this month, on top of 105,000 last month.

    More: Syria: the new endgame
    More: Great divide between our instincts
    More: Dynamic changes global strategy

Germany will receive 800,000 refugees from the Middle East this year but the quota in this part of deeply conservative Germany is much less than the industrial north, yet the serene scenery along the River Elbe belies a fierceness of fear. Those with left-leaning views are frightened about the *vehemence of the Right, but the Right is similarly scared of the Left.

PEGIDA, which stands for Patriotic Europeans Against Western Islamisation, sprang from a gathering of far-right hooligans in Cologne less than 12 months ago but has cemented its roots in Dresden with a weekly march in the town on Monday evenings. The protests have struck a chord with many more moderate Germans who resent the large intake of migrants and their vastly different cultural backgrounds, and are indignant that they receive taxpayer benefits at the cost of developing local amenities.

Claudia Lauser, a local hotelier south of Dresden, says the movement is dangerous and all-pervasive in this area of “brown mist” — a frequently used reference here to the uprising of extremist sentiment that has connotations to the Nazi paramilitary stormtroopers, the Brownshirts. “Those at the PEGIDA marches wave red, white and black flags, which are the old colours of Germany in the Third Reich, which aren’t banned, but I always associate those colours with that period,” she says.

“Another flag they carry is the Wirmer flag, which has a weird association as Joseph Wirmer supported the circles of General (Claus von) Stauffenberg, who tried to assassinate Adolf Hitler.” PEGIDA says its flag is showing democracy.

Festerling is the outspoken face of PEGIDA, the far-right, grassroots movement that is not yet a political party but has ambitions, and increasing connections to Marine Le Pen’s National Front in France, and has arisen to counter the Bundestag’s benevolence to the migrants.

Festerling was drawn to the PEGIDA movement after writing an inflammatory appraisal of some marches in Cologne last year that was shared more than 250,000 times. Four days after the article appeared online, she says, she was sacked from her job working with train company Veolia. Feeling persecuted, she moved to Dresden to become more involved with PEGIDA.*

Read more.


----------



## DB008 (12 September 2015)

*Islamists in Germany trying to recruit young refugees​*



> Berlin (AFP) - Muslim radicals in Germany are trying to recruit some of the growing numbers of asylum seekers reaching the country, according to intelligence services quoted by the German news agency DPA.
> 
> The Islamic extremists "are trying to approach the young unaccompanied refugees, who arrive in our country without their families and are particularly looking for contacts and support," a spokesman for the intelligence service in the southern state of Bavaria told DPA.
> 
> ...




http://news.yahoo.com/islamists-germany-trying-recruit-young-refugees-093024733.html;_ylt=AwrC1C4SyvJVfhMAoLvQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByZnU4cmNpBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM5BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--​


----------



## luutzu (12 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Hope you enjoyed your scotch, something else you will not be able to do in many of the blessed countries
> but please be sure that ignorance does not stick to you with old age; knowlege of truth can be so inconvenient
> but yes i can agree with you: I too wished the world was  sweet dreams and lollipops, and that my youghtful desillusion could have been true: the world would be a happier place.
> 
> But however convenient and confortable the flat earth theory can be, there is no point pretending it is real;If you do, your ship will end up llost on the high sea at the end of the travel...




I think I have some realistic understanding of how the world works. That's why I'm into investing  Well, that and because I wasn't smart enough to be a philosopher and it turns out that having money isn't such a bad thing either.

On a serious note though, I know people who might be like yourself and were idealistic, who helped a lot of people with time and money and in the end got nothing but trouble and headache for it. I have way too much case studies, of things that happen to people I know, and things that happen to me personally, that I'm pretty sure give a good and sickening picture of humanity.

But in the end, who do we want to be. A liar and a cheat like most of them; a smooth talker and brown-noser; ones who spend and keeps all the monies they make so they are well heeled, live in a nice house in a good postcode while their parents or siblings can fend for themselves. 

Anyway, that's the ideal... something nice to aim for.


----------



## qldfrog (13 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> But in the end, who do we want to be. A liar and a cheat like most of them; a smooth talker and brown-noser; ones who spend and keeps all the monies they make so they are well heeled, live in a nice house in a good postcode while their parents or siblings can fend for themselves.
> Anyway, that's the ideal... something nice to aim for.



I agree on that part and this should be applied here with the aboriginals terrible situation, or the young couple sleeping outside in blankets I saw this week before my commuting ride at 5AM while it was feeling quite cold.
But you have not to forget the muslim jihad in your position: we are to be destroyed for far too many of these "migrants".It is a hard fact to actually believe, but the sub human from the nazi time is how we, non muslims, are seen, as are all women.

The immigrant issue should not be separated from the muslim jihad, this is where the real issue is, all the rest is PC hiding.
Without this factor, immigration would be a balancing economic and ecological act;
and what should be done now and should have been for decades and decades is population control 
6 billions can come here (in the west/wealthy countries) and we will just be all evenly poor and starving, with even richer few selected ones..


----------



## SirRumpole (13 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Without this factor, immigration would be a balancing economic and ecological act;
> and what should be done now and should have been for decades and decades is population control
> 6 billions can come here (in the west/wealthy countries) and we will just be all evenly poor and starving, with even richer few selected ones..




Yes indeed, we should have a population policy.

How many people, by what time , and then what ?

Thinking we can grow our population indefinitely without ending up like Calcutta or Tokyo is foolish.

Of course, people in Tokyo get by with a high population density and have a high standard of living, but how long will it last ?


----------



## DB008 (13 September 2015)

I think someone asked about costs earlier on in this thread.


*Finland to raise taxes on the wealthy to cover refugee costs*​


> * Finland expects 10-fold increase of asylum seekers
> 
> * Eurosceptic coalition partner against EU migrant quotas
> 
> ...




http://www.trust.org/item/20150910140946-mlxl6/​


----------



## noco (13 September 2015)

DB008 said:


> I think someone asked about costs earlier on in this thread.
> 
> 
> *Finland to raise taxes on the wealthy to cover refugee costs*
> ...




This is a world Islamic plot with these so called "REFUGEES" to infiltrate the west or is it an invasion?...I note the radicals in Germany are already recruiting young single Muslims into becoming Jihadists. 

It is a world plot to wreck the economies of the western World and Islam and Communism are working hand in hand with that Greenie UN Secretary General Ban-Ki- Moon as their leader....It is all about world government.

Australia beware if the LUG party get back in.......They are also keen to subtly convert to socialism........The Fabian indoctrinated ABC are working and plotting 24/7 to promote their propaganda at every opportunity.

Australians should wake up before it is too late.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 September 2015)

noco said:


> This is a world Islamic plot with these so called "REFUGEES" to infiltrate the west or is it an invasion?...I note the radicals in Germany are already recruiting young single Muslims into becoming Jihadists.
> 
> It is a world plot to wreck the economies of the western World and Islam and Communism are working hand in hand with that Greenie UN Secretary General Ban-Ki- Moon as their leader....It is all about world government.
> 
> ...


----------



## noco (13 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> View attachment 64284




Gawd Rumpy, you are becoming desperate aren't you.......More character assassination...Is that the best you can do?
What will be your next circus clown act?


----------



## noco (13 September 2015)

Riots in Germany today.....Australia tomorrow.....Trouble ...Trouble ...spelt with a capital "T".


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ny_now_home_to_riots_between_kurds_and_turks/


----------



## drsmith (13 September 2015)

noco said:


> The father of the little girl that was drowned, no sorry that was Bill Shortens gaff, it was actually a little 3 year old boy, was the people smuggler who was employed in Turkey for 3 years and he and his family were safe from persecution....So why did he leave Turkey?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If that's true, it just serves as a further illustration as to why illegal people smuggling shouldn't be seen as a means of achieving social objectives.


----------



## luutzu (13 September 2015)

qldfrog said:


> I agree on that part and this should be applied here with the aboriginals terrible situation, or the young couple sleeping outside in blankets I saw this week before my commuting ride at 5AM while it was feeling quite cold.
> But you have not to forget the muslim jihad in your position: we are to be destroyed for far too many of these "migrants".It is a hard fact to actually believe, but the sub human from the nazi time is how we, non muslims, are seen, as are all women.
> 
> The immigrant issue should not be separated from the muslim jihad, this is where the real issue is, all the rest is PC hiding.
> ...




The subhumans you're worried about are back home working for ISIS or the dictators.

One thing you could trust the Abbott gov't on is that it would never let anyone with a hint of terrorism or jihadism in them into Australia.

And seriously, if a jihadi is as determined to get us as we're suggesting - being a trojan horse, playing the refugees, hope to survive the boat journal, go to whatever country takes you in... then years later have your cell activated... They're terrorists man, not idiots. 

One, it takes a lot of training, I imagine, to get an agent that could blend in and passes all that security and vetting. Two, you wouldn't want to risk having that agent being sent wherever as a refugee. Three, you'd need a team of agents, not a couple here and there everywhere. etc. etc.

So if they are planning to attack us on our soil, they'd do it by getting a work visa or student or even a tourist visa... get to exactly where they want, when they want, and carry out their plans. That's how these kind of things are done right?


But if you're implying that they're Muslims and all Muslims are jihadists and want to convert all infidels (and Christians) or else! Well... first you'd need a big army for that kind of conversion. A few crazies with a few shotguns wouldn't be any match for the militarised police force we got going on here... and that's just the police, have they seen our armed forces? 

Second, history have shown that Islam, and Muslim rulers, are more practical than that. Namely, when Islam ruled over territories with Jewish or Christian or infidel population - Spain, other part of the former Roman Empire etc... they did not force conversion nor did they execute non-Muslims. Have you seen what the Chin emperor did to the other non-Chin Chinese? 


Regarding refugees... your point is only correct if you assume that all refugees will live off of welfare. Depends on their family situation, they will likely rely on welfare for first five to ten years... after that they would have known English well enough to have been working in factories or the trades, open up businesses... and soon their kids would have gone through schools and start contributing.

You might have heard of Tiger Mums right? Mothers who drove their kids to all these extra-cirrular activities and shame or whatever the poor child into overachieving... well these refugee parents could do much better and with little more than a desk lamp and a library card.

---

Regarding over-population. Discussed elsewhere where some scientists have shown that overpopulation is not the problem that's causing death and famine. And if it's a problem, it's due to the West for living too long. Most families in poor countries that earned $5 a day only have 2 children.

In terms of the refugees or the poor will make the West poorer too... well that's not true either.

It's often the rich that makes a country poor. Strange as that sounds.

Firstly, it's the poor migrants/refugees that will work the long hours on dirty jobs for low wages.. doing things most would not want to do. So economically that's a positive.

Second, they've literally escaped death. They've found new opportunities and often make the most of it.

Third, they will send money back to the old country to help their parents, siblings... Western dollars goes a long way back there.


What does the rich do to help the country anyway? Nothing.
They're often the lucky sperm who grew up with silver spoons, goes fancy schools and come out with high figure jobs handed to them. Then spend most of their time on holidays or at the tax consultant's office on how to pay no tax.

Those that does work and does use their money even do more harm. they buy politicians, get public assets privatized and with those monopolies they just collect the cash, raise prices, cut back on maintenance, fire a bunch of people and call it efficiency... then it collapses and the gov't will need to bail them out else the state won't function. 

I mean, if somebody in gov't give me the "rights" to a large swathes of land to "explore" and mine, and if I found anything I pay my fair share 8 for me and 2 for you... I reckon I'd be rich and look real useful too.


----------



## Ijustnewit (13 September 2015)

noco said:


> This is a world Islamic plot with these so called "REFUGEES" to infiltrate the west or is it an invasion?...I note the radicals in Germany are already recruiting young single Muslims into becoming Jihadists.
> 
> It is a world plot to wreck the economies of the western World and Islam and Communism are working hand in hand with that Greenie UN Secretary General Ban-Ki- Moon as their leader....It is all about world government.
> 
> ...




Great post Noco , you probably have looked into the UN's Agenda 21 as well. As usual you are on the money , as we saw with Labor and the Greens it's social engineering to bring every individual down or up to one level. 
Control their welfare and you control the population. These do gooders are either in on the act or they have know idea what the real agenda is. Australia won't wake and the people with concerns are too afraid to air their concerns fearing the racist card being played. Oh well at least you and I can say , " see told you so ".:1zhelp:
Also this Climate Change scam is another Greenie UN way to bring people into submission . Scare the hell out of them and then bleed them to death with Carbon Charges , all to save the World.


----------



## drsmith (13 September 2015)

The scam with climate change in my view is not global warming itself but rather the abuse of it to achieve broader social objectives.

The same goes for refugee resettlement. There's a role for nations to play in resettling displaced peoples fleeing persecution but the process presently is too easily corrupted by those seeking to abuse it to advance broader social objectives. That in turn opens the door for large scale illegal people smuggling operations. We've all seen the outcomes of that and continue to see the outcomes of that.


----------



## drsmith (13 September 2015)

Boom time for people smuggling into Europe,



> In the past two weeks alone, an estimated 30,000 people have arrived on these beaches in Greece.
> 
> In one afternoon recently, the ABC witnessed six boats arriving in just one hour.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...s-island-beaches-covered-life-jackets/6771478


----------



## Tisme (14 September 2015)

noco said:


> Riots in Germany today.....Australia tomorrow.....Trouble ...Trouble ...spelt with a capital "T".




The govt doing anything about that tomorrow to make sure we're safe or is that Bill Shorten's fault for not being a good Prime Minister ?


----------



## SirRumpole (14 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> The scam with climate change in my view is not global warming itself but rather the abuse of it to achieve broader social objectives.




What broader social objectives ?



> The same goes for refugee resettlement. There's a role for nations to play in resettling displaced peoples fleeing persecution but the process presently is too easily corrupted by those seeking to abuse it to advance broader social objectives. That in turn opens the door for large scale illegal people smuggling operations. We've all seen the outcomes of that and continue to see the outcomes of that.




What broader social objectives ?


----------



## Tisme (14 September 2015)

noco said:


> Australians should wake up before it is too late.




and do what? Your preferred party is ruling the place, what are we supposed to do that they aren't already elected to implement on our behalf?

Can I also remind you of another race of bomb crazy and murdering/violent peoples who managed to enter our country, rob people at gunpoint, oppose authority, resent assimilation, and bring a repressive hocus pocus religion with them:

[drum role] I give you ....... badum-tish  ..THE IRISH [/drum role]


----------



## dutchie (14 September 2015)

The biggest political mistake made this decade.

Angela Merkel - "We'll take 800,000"

Humanitarian, yes. Practical, no.

Every Tom Dick and Harry looking for a better life will want to go to Germany (Europe).

800,000 ? try 8,000,000 or 80,000,000.


----------



## Ijustnewit (14 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> The biggest political mistake made this decade.
> 
> Angela Merkel - "We'll take 800,000"
> 
> ...




I saw that this morning on my favourite the ABC NEWS 24 , now Merkel wants to close the border again . 
Good luck with that 
Also she wants her border patrol to start doing immigration checks of papers , I wonder if those radicals from Melbourne and their placards are on their way over there with the social media crew to try and shut them down 
Meanwhile the ABC continue run the heartfelt stories about more drowning's and the epic journey these poor people face.
At least the garbos will be in employment for years to come with piles of strewn trash seen for many a mile.


----------



## drsmith (14 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> What broader social objectives ?



(Broadly speaking, wealth redistribution) x 2.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> (Broadly speaking, wealth redistribution) x 2.




Erm, could you expand on that ?

As far as AGW goes, from where does the wealth go from and to ? Coal mines to renewable industries ? What's wrong with that ? Both these sectors consist of private companies (mostly), so what is the problem if money goal from coal to more efficient companies ? Surely the idea is to encourage as many businesses as possible to compete for the consumer dollar ?

Your reasoning on refugees is a bit more obscure. Who loses the money and who gets it ?


----------



## luutzu (14 September 2015)

dutchie said:


> The biggest political mistake made this decade.
> 
> Angela Merkel - "We'll take 800,000"
> 
> ...




How do you reckon they'll get that better life once they're in Germany Dutch?

They'll milk welfare and the German's taxpayers generosity, considered themselves retired for life and spend all day at the beach or the local RSL or the park?

Or maybe... maybe in Germany there's no threat of getting blown up by jets and drones, no threats of running into crossfires, and maybe your home would still be standing on your return from the beach. That kind of safety and luxury might actually motivate people to work hard and rebuild their lives.

Tell you what... if you go to Syria or any country in the ME right now, take the same journey these refugees take, and once you reach Germany, I'll pay all the welfare you would receive from the gov't, for life! I wouldn't even care if you then take up a second or third job... will still pay you. Deal?

Mate, people value life more than wealth, guarantee you. 
So maybe if we stop our grand strategy and stop liberating their country or their neighbours, stop blowing up their infrastructure (then of course rebuilt it, one day), maybe doing things that will costs us nothing will actually not drive millions to seek refuge. Maybe them living as they have always lived - poor, but living; making not much of a living but it put food on the table... that might be enough for most people.

Nice and easy to complaint about greedy Muslims when you're comfortable. Try switching off the power, the water supply, the internet, not drive and stop work for a couple months and see if you too would want a "better life".


----------



## Ijustnewit (17 September 2015)

We are starting see the true behaviour of these asylum seekers now they are being fenced off. Scenes on the news look very similar to what you would expect back in their homelands. I don't get my way so we burn , riot and throw bottles and rocks. One wonders what trouble these people will cause in the future once they are let in as settlers. News from the ABC .  

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...water-cannon-and-tear-gas-at-migrants/6782056


----------



## luutzu (17 September 2015)

Ijustnewit said:


> We are starting see the true behaviour of these asylum seekers now they are being fenced off. Scenes on the news look very similar to what you would expect back in their homelands. I don't get my way so we burn , riot and throw bottles and rocks. One wonders what trouble these people will cause in the future once they are let in as settlers. News from the ABC .
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...water-cannon-and-tear-gas-at-migrants/6782056




So what about the ones who are behaving themselves? They're not yet showing their true colours or they don't count and we're going for the lowest denominator.

btw, you don't sound the Zen Buddhist type either... more the Inspector Javert - you break the law I break your neck type. Judge not lest blah blah...


----------



## Tisme (17 September 2015)

Ijustnewit said:


> We are starting see the true behaviour of these asylum seekers now they are being fenced off. Scenes on the news look very similar to what you would expect back in their homelands. I don't get my way so we burn , riot and throw bottles and rocks. One wonders what trouble these people will cause in the future once they are let in as settlers. News from the ABC .
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...water-cannon-and-tear-gas-at-migrants/6782056




Back in their homelands they would be brutalised and gone missing.

You think maybe if they put some effort into protesting about Islam and its soldiers they might enjoy what Europe has in their own back yard? I can't figure out why Europe, when Paradise is surely in their neighbouring Islamic countries where Allah loves everyone and everyone loves one another to bits.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Back in their homelands they would be brutalised and gone missing.
> 
> You think maybe if they put some effort into protesting about Islam and its soldiers they might enjoy what Europe has in their own back yard? I can't figure out why Europe, when Paradise is surely in their neighbouring Islamic countries where Allah loves everyone and everyone loves one another to bits.




Muslim countries aren't big on welfare spending.


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## DB008 (17 September 2015)

Might need a new thread for the refugee crisis in Europe?

Anyways, it is out of control. Will only get worse.

This video below happened in Switzerland. Crazy.

Warning, graphic content below, but it is the truth and needs to be seen what is starting to happen in Europe. Mainstream media is not covering it.

​


----------



## luutzu (17 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Back in their homelands they would be brutalised and gone missing.
> 
> You think maybe if they put some effort into protesting about Islam and its soldiers they might enjoy what Europe has in their own back yard? I can't figure out why Europe, when Paradise is surely in their neighbouring Islamic countries where Allah loves everyone and everyone loves one another to bits.





Yea, right. It's their religion and their culture that's the cause of their poverty. We're just there to help rebuild the place and our generosity is now being extended to help them there in their own home and also to help those who refused our help there but flee away because paradise from the constant bombings just cant come quick enough for some people.


----------



## luutzu (17 September 2015)

DB008 said:


> Might need a new thread for the refugee crisis in Europe?
> 
> Anyways, it is out of control. Will only get worse.
> 
> ...





Told ya, two days... but this is probably the fourth since I said it.


----------



## drsmith (20 September 2015)

The OSB monthly update for August has been published and it's been another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-31-august


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## noco (20 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> The OSB monthly update for August has been published and it's been another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-31-august





Great stuff Doc, but don't be surprised if you are not  branded by the same socialist left iron as I have......It is a wonder the LUG party have not illustrated a cracked record in response to your post....They don't like being reminded of their mistakes and to make matters worse Shorten will open the borders again "IF' he was to get back into power again.


----------



## drsmith (20 September 2015)

noco said:


> Great stuff Doc, but don't be surprised if you are not  branded by the same socialist left iron as I have......It is a wonder the LUG party have not illustrated a cracked record in response to your post....They don't like being reminded of their mistakes and to make matters worse Shorten will open the borders again "IF' he was to get back into power again.



I'm hoping that a positive outcome of the current European debacle is that after the present social experiment is over, the importance of maintaining individual nation sovereignty will be better recognised at a global level. 

That the Abbott government acted decisively as it did means we will be spared to a greater extent the heartache Europe is experiencing and will experience in the immediate and perhaps the long term future. 

If the serial critics from the time of the Coalition in opposition to now still don't like it, that's their right and their problem. The results very much speak for themselves in comparison to what happened under the previous Labor administration.


----------



## drsmith (23 September 2015)

The people smugglers keep trying,



> A GROUP of asylum seekers, including children, has reportedly been detained in southern Java after an unsuccessful attempt to journey by boat to Australia.
> 
> THE 21 from countries including Bangladesh, India and Pakistan were found floating off Jayanti Beach, Cianjur, early on Wednesday, local website Okezone reported.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d-in-java-report/story-fn3dxix6-1227540924079


----------



## DB008 (29 September 2015)

*A world of long-term welfare for refugees​*


> MORE than 60 per cent of refugees to Australia have failed to get a job after five years, according to a damning Federal Government report into the humanitarian settlement program.
> 
> And 83 per cent of those households now rely on welfare payments for income.
> 
> ...





http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/a-world-of-long-term-welfare-for-refugees/story-e6freuzr-1226050094427​


----------



## noco (29 September 2015)

The Muslims state they will take over Belgium and introduce Sharia Law with their aim to dominate the world ASAP.

This latest invasion of Europe by the boat people is a well organized event, as I have said some years ago on this forum, they want an Islamic state and are setting up their cells in various countries through out the Western World, hence the invasion of Muslims into Australia 2008/2013 under Rudd and Gillard.

The likes of ISIS, the Taliban and all their other splinter organizations is the Islamic army at work. 


http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?


----------



## noco (29 September 2015)

noco said:


> The Muslims state they will take over Belgium and introduce Sharia Law with their aim to dominate the world ASAP.
> 
> This latest invasion of Europe by the boat people is a well organized event, as I have said some years ago on this forum, they want an Islamic state and are setting up their cells in various countries through out the Western World, hence the invasion of Muslims into Australia 2008/2013 under Rudd and Gillard.
> 
> ...




This link does not seem to want to play back.....Try this one.

http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?bcid=1509282970001


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2015)

DB008 said:


> *A world of long-term welfare for refugees​*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/a-world-of-long-term-welfare-for-refugees/story-e6freuzr-1226050094427​




Well we have being saying it for years on here, some of these city focused socialists, need to get out into suburbia and see the real world.

The reality is, unlike the Italians, pommies, Vietnamese etc, These recent economic refugees have no interest in integrating, working or assimilating.
It is the same reason, they are demanding to go to certain countries in Europe, welfare pure and simple.

Well thankfully, gen x and y can sort that one out.


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2015)

noco said:


> This link does not seem to want to play back.....Try this one.
> 
> http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?bcid=1509282970001




Belgium has had a real issue for several years, muslim refugees, make up nearly half the population.


----------



## MrBurns (29 September 2015)

Just wait till they get voted into political positions.....


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Just wait till they get voted into political positions.....




That is what Belgium, and neighbouring countries, are worried about.

There was talk about dividing Belgium between France and Holland, I believe.

People are being very complacent, about differentiating between compassion and being taken advantage of.IMO


----------



## MrBurns (29 September 2015)

sptrawler said:


> That is what Belgium, and neighbouring countries, are worried about.
> 
> There was talk about dividing Belgium between France and Holland, I believe.
> 
> People are being very complacent, about differentiating between compassion and being taken advantage of.IMO




The people will eventually get very very angry then there might be some changes made to laws that allow a country to be invaded by stealth.


----------



## luutzu (29 September 2015)

You guys really need to get your facts and your economics straight.

The Western democracies and economies, basically the entire world, but who cares for the poor countries... anyway, the Western economies was brought to the brink of collapse back in 2007-08 because of the geniuses on Wall Street and their friends in all the high places. The refugees didn't do it; nor were the Mexican illegals in American did it to the Americans.

The trillions in savings and pensions that were lost, then the trillion or more that were eventually used to bail out the banks and the big corporations... these were not caused by refugees or the poor people.

The current influx of refugees, estimated at 60 million in the Middle East [?]... they didn't plan on becoming refugees, leaving their home and country and beg for a living. When the bomb drops and the bullets flies around their heads for 15 years, that kind of nation-building liberation really doesn't as promised. 

When you live in a desert-like area that's already poor, and some terrorist or liberator blew up the water wells or contaminate the water sources; or the power get cuts and the schools are out and the prices goes up and you might get blown up here there and everywhere... you'd run too.

And seriously, you think refugees know about the welfare system? Even if they heard it, do you seriously think they'd believe it? And even if they receive it once they're safe and sound, you seriously think they would rest on their laurels and enjoy welfare payments forever?

If you seriously want to stop the boats and stop the refugees stealing your welfare... well, first, maybe demand of politicians to make decent policies so that you, me and our children don't need to fight refugees over scraps... and if we have to fight over the few bucks that's "given" to us when we're poor and broke but we have to "owe" and payup when we were working... if we have to fight over that, then demand stopping wars and foreign adventures, don't buy into this bs about us vs them, good vs evil.

We're probably the only people in the history of the world that flew some 10,000 miles from our homeland, flatten cities and overthrow gov't at will... and at the same time, are in a panic at how evil and sick and scary these people are.. that they'll take over our country. Seriously, that's quite a brainwash man.

Anyway, Fear the Walking Dead time.


----------



## Ijustnewit (29 September 2015)

I think there is a silent majority that is sick and tired of being walked over by elected and non elected officials and politicians ( eg. the UN ) , the anger is slowly growing for sure. Meanwhile countries are flooded by immigrants and the general population can do nothing but sit back and watch it happen. 
It's the United Nations Agenda 21 immigration policy at it's finest . :1zhelp:


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2015)

luutzu said:


> You guys really need to get your facts and your economics straight.
> 
> The Western democracies and economies, basically the entire world, but who cares for the poor countries... anyway, the Western economies was brought to the brink of collapse back in 2007-08 because of the geniuses on Wall Street and their friends in all the high places. The refugees didn't do it; nor were the Mexican illegals in American did it to the Americans.
> 
> ...




I like your take on it.
We will go down to the lowest common denominator, eventually, it is just a matter of time.

The world has a population of 7 Billion give or take, studies say we can support 4 Billion, sooner or later balance has to be restored.

The good thing about the media is, they will explain the problem and the solution, then what will give them the best coverage.


----------



## noco (29 September 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Just wait till they get voted into political positions.....




We already have a Muslim in Federal Parliament under the Labor banner.

His name is Ed Kuseck and he took the oath on the Koran when he was sworn in by the Governor General Quintin Bryce.


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2015)

noco said:


> We already have a Muslim in Federal Parliament under the Labor banner.
> 
> His name is Ed Kuseck and he took the oath on the Koran when he was sworn in by the Governor General Quintin Bryce.




I actually don't have a problem with that.

What I have a problem with, is why he isn't in politics in a muslim country, trying to stop the mass exodus?

Why get involved in politics in a christian country, when there is so many problems in muslim countries? 

Give me a break, FFS


----------



## MrBurns (30 September 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I actually don't have a problem with that.
> 
> What I have a problem with, is why he isn't in politics in a muslim country, trying to stop the mass exodus?
> 
> ...




You forget Australia WILL be a Muslim country , that's the plan isn't it ? 
The Chinese might help prevent it as they will own much of the place before long.
The Aussie is history in any case.


----------



## noco (30 September 2015)

MrBurns said:


> You forget Australia WILL be a Muslim country , that's the plan isn't it ?
> The Chinese might help prevent it as they will own much of the place before long.
> The Aussie is history in any case.




There are more Muslims in China than the entire population of Australian.....28,000,000.



http://www.muslimpopulation.com/asia/China/Muslim in China.php

*At present, according to official statistics there are 28 million Muslim in China but in 1936 it was estimated that the Muslim population was 48 million. By this time total population has increased 3-4 fold. So we can conclude that the total Muslim population has increased minimum by that same proportion. Therefore, now the total Muslim population is at least 150 million. *


----------



## sinner (30 September 2015)

sptrawler said:


> I actually don't have a problem with that.
> 
> What I have a problem with, is why he isn't in politics in a muslim country, trying to stop the mass exodus?
> 
> ...




Holy **** you people are actually nutjobs.

This is a secular nation, not a "christian country".

Outside of your feeble and easily led skulls there is no plan to turn Australia into a Muslim country.

As for the 28 million Muslims in China comment, just LOL. You guys actually really think those 28 million Muslims are out to get you...don't you. No clue that they're either an native ethnic minority oppressed by the Peoples Party or remnants of thousand+years of cross border pollination thanks to the Silk Road.

I bet that in your mind, every refugee and asylum seeker with brown skin is an evil terrorist Muslim out to rape your wifecand take your job. You couldn't tell the difference between a Kurd, Yazidi and Sunni to actually save your own life.


----------



## MrBurns (30 September 2015)

noco said:


> There are more Muslims in China than the entire population of Australian.....28,000,000.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There's 1.3B Chinese............bit of a difference, they're not being challenged.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2015)

sinner said:


> Holy **** you people are actually nutjobs.
> 
> This is a secular nation, not a "christian country".




If we are a secular nation, then maybe we should tolerate religions of any type less.

Throw away the silly superstitions and get some clear thinking in our governments and schools.

Don't publicly finance religious schools for a start.

Maybe that means showing disapproval of the things that some religious people do, like Halal certification, hiding their faces in public arranged marriages , female genital mutilation etc, just as we are holding Royal Commissions into child abuse.

I want this country to stay secular and pandering to religion of any sort won't keep it that way.


----------



## sinner (30 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> If we are a secular nation, then maybe we should tolerate religions of any type less.
> 
> Throw away the silly superstitions and get some clear thinking in our governments and schools.
> 
> ...




That you actually percieve Halal certification and women who wear the niqab as a threat to Australias secularity speaks only to your diminished and diminishing capacity for critical thought and nothing else.


----------



## sinner (30 September 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Belgium has had a real issue for several years, muslim refugees, make up nearly half the population.




hahahahahaaaa so dumb.

Where does this idiotic misinformation come from and how stupid must one be to blindly accept it as a fact?

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/belgium-country-permanent-immigration


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2015)

sinner said:


> That you actually percieve Halal certification and women who wear the niqab as a threat to Australias secularity speaks only to your diminished and diminishing capacity for critical thought and nothing else.




They are religious practises that are intruding into secular society.

 I don't care if people want to wear all enclosing clothes as long as we can see their faces, I don't want to buy food where money goes to a religious organisation that promotes sexism or bad treatment of women.

 What's wrong with that ?


----------



## sinner (30 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> They are religious practises that are intruding into secular society.
> 
> I don't care if people want to wear all enclosing clothes as long as we can see their faces, I don't want to buy food where money goes to a religious organisation that promotes sexism or bad treatment of women.
> 
> What's wrong with that ?




Think about it for 10 seconds instead of letting fear and ignorance short circuit your brain. I'm sure the answer will come to you eventually.


----------



## Tisme (30 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> If we are a secular nation, then maybe we should tolerate religions of any type less.
> 
> Throw away the silly superstitions and get some clear thinking in our governments and schools.
> 
> ...




Remember those pics of Afghanistan in the sixties contrasted with today? The girls in mini skirts laughing compared to the girl on the cover of National Geographic?

You have a right to protest and rail against those that would give away what our forebears fought for. It is obvious our constitution has secular clauses in it for a damned good reason ....... can you imagine what we would be like now with all those catholics in govt having to answer to the pope if not for the law demanding they do not? We'd all be running around with catholic guilt worrying god was going to do bad things to us, fessing up to voyeuristic pedophile blokes in dresses about our personal lives and wearing budgie smugglers!!!!


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> Remember those pics of Afghanistan in the sixties contrasted with today? The girls in mini skirts laughing compared to the girl on the cover of National Geographic?
> 
> You have a right to protest and rail against those that would give away what our forebears fought for. It is obvious our constitution has secular clauses in it for a damned good reason ....... can you imagine what we would be like now with all those catholics in govt having to answer to the pope if not for the law demanding they do not? We'd all be running around with catholic guilt worrying god was going to do bad things to us, fessing up to voyeuristic pedophile blokes in dresses about our personal lives and wearing budgie smugglers!!!!






I reckon religious affiliation should be a disqualification from public office, or at least be publicly declared beforehand.


----------



## Tisme (30 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I reckon religious affiliation should be a disqualification from public office, or at least be publicly declared beforehand.




See this is where you an I could become politicians ... we aren't compelled by some barbarian scriptures that on the odd occasion state the bleeding obvious ... at worst we could embrace Freemasonry and agree there  is one god, that religions are just different pathways to the same dude and that we must never speak of such religions in conversation...... makes sense to me.

Otherwise we would have to sit next to micks in parliament and maybe get mick bugs and stuff and that can't be good for our health!


----------



## orr (5 October 2015)

No policy changes here, of course;

_“The start of detention-free processing is a landmark day for Nauru and represents an even more compassionate program, which was always the intention of our government,” said justice minister David Adeang.

However the timing – just days before the high court of Australia hears a challenge to the legality of offshore detention – has raised suspicions among legal and refugee advocates._

No doubt this will offend the lunatic skinhead fringe ... but such is the law and such is humanitarianism(my what a big word, completely unintelligible? more likely the fault of the reader than the word)


----------



## noco (5 October 2015)

We are doing more for Muslims in Australia than any other country and by many it is not appreciated.

Henry Ergas tells the story.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...556732787?sv=2b6afd776ce4cf41e1b2d8810efb3431

*According to senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells, Assistant Minister for Multicultural Affairs in the Turnbull government, the young Muslims who are being drawn into the extremism that led Farhad Jabar Khalil Mohammad to murder a NSW Police Force employee last Friday feel “disengaged” and “disenfranchised”.

No doubt. But it is also worth recalling the realities. And none is more important than the fact that Australia provides its young Muslims with opportunities that are outstanding.

The contrast to Europe could not be sharper. In Germany and The Netherlands, second-generation Muslims are twice as likely to leave school before completion than their native-born counterparts; in Australia, secondary school retention rates are no lower for second-generation Muslims than they are for the youth population as a whole.

Equally, in Germany and The Netherlands, young Muslims are only one-third as likely to complete post-secondary education as their native-born counterparts, with the result that barely 7 per cent of the children of Turks in Germany and 29 per cent of the children of Moroccans in The Netherlands gain a post-secondary credential; in Australia, the difference in entry rates is small, so that 43 per cent of second-generation Muslims have a post-secondary credential, compared to 52 per cent of the entire population aged 18 to 35.

The achievement is even more remarkable when outcomes for second-generation Australian Muslims are compared with those of their parents.

For example, a study of Sydney’s Lebanese Muslim community found that 45 per cent of the parents had left school before the equivalent of Year 10; in contrast, virtually all their children had completed upper secondary school, with the majority continuing to TAFE or university. Moreover, that difference in educational attainment has translated into sustained upward mobility: although 35 per cent of the fathers were manual labourers, only 10 per cent of the male children are; and while barely 3 per cent of the parents were in the professions, some 20 per cent of their children have professional jobs.

To emphasise those outcomes is not to ignore the problems. However, at least some of them reflect choice rather than necessity: the combination of very low rates of female labour force participation and relatively high birthrates — which then leads to strains on family budgets and welfare dependency — being a case in point. As for the other problems polls highlight, such as the perception of being in a job that falls short of one’s qualifications, they are by no means unique to young Muslims, with other young Australians suffering the effects of “credential inflation” every bit as acutely.

What is different about young Muslims is where those problems lead: to a sense of being hard done by, which others are responsible for and must redress.

For example, only 13 per cent of Australian-born Lebanese Christians strongly believe governments need to do more to advance the position of migrants; but 54 per cent of Australian-born Lebanese Muslims do. And though the majority of Australian-born Muslims say they have never experienced labour market discrimination themselves, they believe it to be relatively widespread and more so now than a decade ago.

It is that chasm between opportunity and grievance which needs to be explained; but its causes are not hard to find.

To begin with, young Australian Muslims, especially those of Middle Eastern extraction, are twice as likely as their Australian peers to have an identity in which religion plays a key part — and that religion, as practised in many Australian mosques, all too often preaches that Muslims are victims of grave injustice.

At the same time, they are highly likely to live in areas where a 30 per cent or higher proportion of the population shares their identity, such as Lakemba, Auburn and Greenacre in Sydney and Dandenong South, Dallas and Meadow Heights in Melbourne. And to make matters worse, their primary social networks in those areas are frequently narrow, with one survey finding that 40 per cent of young Muslims of Lebanese origin have never had any Anglo-Celtic friends.

The result is an echo chamber that does not merely confirm misperceptions but magnifies them, allowing dissatisfaction to meta*stasise, in extreme cases, into jihadism.

That process needs to be blocked; the risk, however, is that the government’s response will only aggravate the pathology.*

Read more especially the readers comments.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2015)

noco said:


> We are doing more for Muslims in Australia than any other country and by many it is not appreciated.
> 
> Henry Ergas tells the story.
> 
> ...




Pointless posting links to subscriber articles. Can you just quote them ?


----------



## Tisme (6 October 2015)

I think the only way we are are going to solve the "home grown" terrorists is by appeasement, inclusion and community consultation:

who would object to the govt adopting all three measures and applying them to the majority of the population for a change?

Meanwhile start building departure cargo wharves in the capitals I reckon.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think the only way we are are going to solve the "home grown" terrorists is by appeasement, inclusion and community consultation:
> 
> who would object to the govt adopting all three measures and applying them to the majority of the population for a change?
> 
> Meanwhile start building departure cargo wharves in the capitals I reckon.




Ah yes, appeasement worked out really well for Neville Chamberlain didn't it ?


----------



## Tisme (6 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Ah yes, appeasement worked out really well for Neville Chamberlain didn't it ?




Wrapping minorities in cotton wool is ridiculous, it just empowers the feeble minded among them.

I'm surprised they haven't resorted to comparing themselves to the oppression wrought against the blacks in deep south USA to advance their cause.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Wrapping minorities in cotton wool is ridiculous, it just empowers the feeble minded among them.
> 
> I'm surprised they haven't resorted to comparing themselves to the oppression wrought against the blacks in deep south USA to advance their cause.





That will come, don't worry, especially if some of them read this site.


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That will come, don't worry, especially if some of them read this site.




It will probably originate and propagate on this site ...


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2015)

Where does this racist right wing nut case get off, telling muslims "if they don't like Australia, to leave". 
It' a typical racist remark we have come to expect,.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/parramatt...-to-where-they-came-from-20151008-gk45x6.html

Oh it's one of them saying it, that's o.k.

Just don't think you Australians, can get away with saying it.


----------



## luutzu (8 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Where does this racist right wing nut case get off, telling muslims "if they don't like Australia, to leave".
> It' a typical racist remark we have come to expect,.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/parramatt...-to-where-they-came-from-20151008-gk45x6.html
> ...




The ethnic/minority community tend to be tougher and much more unforgiving than White people when "one of their own" commit any crime. Bring bad name to the entire community, cause harassment and discrimination on the innocent member of the community, and from what I hear from callers to the VNese radio on SBS, they're quite angered and feel the criminal betrays the entire community and the Australian community at large too.

Remember that Ngo guy who ordered the murder of John Newman MP [?]. I saw a plague in a memorial park in Cabramatta with his name defaced.


----------



## drsmith (9 October 2015)

The OSB monthly update for September has been published and it's been another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...leases/monthly-operational-update-september-4


----------



## noco (9 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> The OSB monthly update for September has been published and it's been another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...leases/monthly-operational-update-september-4




Keep up the good work Doc......stick it right up their nostrils.......The Labor Party need to be reminded every month until the next election.


----------



## orr (10 October 2015)

Any 'Border Force' Security workers seeing abuses they really think they should report, rather than be threatened into silence by a dystopian abuse of legalese. 
Should read Julian Burnsides offer;

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...now-whats-happening-on-nauru-and-manus-island
_
There is a defence provided by section 48 of the Act. It provides that an entrusted person may disclose protected information if:
(a) the entrusted person reasonably believes that the disclosure is necessary to prevent or lessen a serious threat to the life or health of an individual; and

(b) the disclosure is for the purposes of preventing or lessening that threat._

_And, just in case the legislation has the chilling effect which is apparently intended, I will repeat the open offer I have previously made: if any worker in the detention system is prosecuted under the Australian Border Force Act, and if their conduct appears to be protected by section 48, I will make sure they get the best pro bono defence ever seen in this country._

And never has Alan Jones looked so ashen as when Julian had him in the box grilling him on the payola of the undisclosed payments he accepted from banks whilst spruking their cause.


----------



## banco (11 October 2015)

Looks like we have to hurt some children to save others from drowning:

Doctors at the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne are refusing to send back asylum seeker children to detention centres amid a showdown with the Immigration Department.

News Corp is reporting the doctors are concerned about the welfare of their dozens of patients and say it would be unethical to discharge them to unsafe conditions that could compromise their health.

Defying new federal laws threatening two years' jail for health workers who speak out against immigration detention centre conditions, more than 400 of the hospital's doctors stood together on Friday demanding children be released from detention.

"We see a whole range of physical, mental, emotional and social disturbances that are really severe and we have no hope of improving these things when we have to discharge our patients back into detention," one paediatrician told News Corp.

The outlet reported that it understood the issue was sparked by a month-long standoff between doctors and authorities over the release of a child with a range of health issues this year.

Staff have also been outraged at immigration guards placed at the entrances of some patients' rooms for 24 hours a day.

Immigration Minister Peter Dutton told News Corp he would not support a change in government policy.

"I understand the concern of doctors, but the Defence and Border Force staff on our vessels who were pulling dead kids out of the water don't want the boats to restart," he said.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/r...-detention-20151010-gk63xm.html#ixzz3oDjAkbKh
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook


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## Tisme (12 October 2015)

banco said:


> Immigration Minister Peter Dutton told News Corp he would not support a change in government policy.
> 
> "I understand the concern of doctors, but the Defence and Border Force staff on our vessels who were pulling dead kids out of the water don't want the boats to restart," he said.




He didn't really say that ...did he  !!?


Of course there people out there that only pay lip service to the welfare of children. I've even worked with men who exhibit no paternal bent for their own, let alone value the well being of other children....they are the ones a good parent keeps at arms length from and out of earshot of their offspring.


----------



## Wysiwyg (12 October 2015)

I wonder why these people are so desperate to come to Australia over the rest of their native country people to the length that they risk death and restriction of movement. Maybe they were led to believe this is the quickest way. In this present world there have to be immigration rules and everyone must follow them as our ancestors did when they came to Australia.


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## drsmith (13 October 2015)

On matters children in detention, Adam Bandt had a question to the PM in QT yesterday,



> Mr BANDT   ( Melbourne ) ( 14:30 ): My question is to the Prime Minister. Staff at the Royal Children's Hospital in my electorate have refused to discharge asylum seeker children because your government will lock them back up in detention centres where children are self-harming and becoming suicidal. No-one wants to see people drown at sea, but do you really believe that we cannot find a solution that does not involve locking up babies and children in mental illness factories? Prime Minister, will you accept that previous Labor and Liberal governments got it wrong, and will you release all children from detention?
> 
> Mr TURNBULL  (Wentworth””Prime Minister) (14:31): I thank the honourable member for his question. I will respond to it with the gravity it deserves. But I would simply note this: the honourable member said 'nobody wants people to die at sea'. I accept that the honourable member does not. The simple fact””the melancholy truth””is that the policies that he and his party supported, and still support, have been proven to have that consequence. There is no doubt about that. This is not a question of theory; this is a question of fact. There was an experiment undertaken under the Labor government. Mr Rudd himself regretted it and sought to change it. The fact is it was done, it happened, it was a mistake, people died.
> 
> ...




http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/1d38c79d-f3f8-401a-81d0-e364715774a5/0000"


----------



## luutzu (13 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> On matters children in detention, Adam Bandt had a question to the PM in QT yesterday,
> 
> 
> 
> http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/1d38c79d-f3f8-401a-81d0-e364715774a5/0000"




Ha! Conscience.

The country is being robbed blind, with politicians being bought and paid for while the masses get to turn up once every few years to tick a box and go home to a house they can barely afford and will take a lifetime to pay off... with utilities being privatised like I-get-you-elected-you-sell-monopolies-to-me, leading to price gouging and profiteering like the good old days of the industrial revolution... and we're here bashing Muslims for wanting to build a place of worship, lock the kids up because while no one wants it it is necessary for security.

Priorities man.


----------



## noco (14 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Ha! Conscience.
> 
> The country is being robbed blind, with politicians being bought and paid for while the masses get to turn up once every few years to tick a box and go home to a house they can barely afford and will take a lifetime to pay off... with utilities being privatised like I-get-you-elected-you-sell-monopolies-to-me, leading to price gouging and profiteering like the good old days of the industrial revolution... and we're here bashing Muslims for wanting to build a place of worship, lock the kids up because while no one wants it it is necessary for security.
> 
> Priorities man.




Of course the alternative would be to open the borders again like the LUG party did with more kids drowning at sea....Over 1250 men, women and children lost their lives thanks to the stupidity of Rudd and Gillard...Which would you prefer?

There were 2000 kids in detention under Labor...That has been reduced to around 100 under the current government.

What are you complaining about?...Give the government time to clean up Labor's usual mess.


----------



## Tisme (14 October 2015)

noco said:


> There were 2000 kids in detention under Labor....
> 
> .




That's a convenient lie and should be beneath you Noco. 

The fact is that the numbers peeked at 1992 in July 2013, but the period of detention/processing was much shorter in fact the lowest detention period = ~60 days on average. It was when the LNP came to office that detention period escalated to a point where it is hovering around 450 - 500 days, presumably for the political gain and profit for some.

If the processing had been kept at July 2013 rate by the Abbott Govt and the number of boat arrivals declined as they have; how many kids would be in detention now Noco? What would have been the subsequent cost to taxpayer for not having to build facilities, pay rapist guards, transported raped and brutalised people to Australian hospitals?

Even your mate Blind Freddy would have enough smarts to know you and Turnbull are trying to be clever dicks to annoy your opponents and prepared to use people's suffering (450 days!!!) to win brownie points. Of course there's always that invisible band of friends who live in one's mind who will approve of the artful deceit.

When someone lands by plane into Australia seeking asylum....are they sent to Nauru or PNG?


----------



## noco (14 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> That's a convenient lie and should be beneath you Noco.
> 
> The fact is that the numbers peeked at 1992 in July 2013, but the period of detention/processing was much shorter in fact the lowest detention period = ~60 days on average. It was when the LNP came to office that detention period escalated to a point where it is hovering around 450 - 500 days, presumably for the political gain and profit for some.
> 
> ...




The number of children in detention under Labor peeked at 2000........The current government has that figure down to around 100...not a bad effort in 2 years....but of course your buddies expect more.

1250 men, women and children lost their lives at sea thanks to Rudd and Gillard's open boarder policy......none have been lost at sea since the Liberal Government came to power......

The LUG parties detention rate was low because they ran out of detention center space and processed them willy nilly...There was no thorough checks made to to find out if they were in fact genuine refugees, criminals or Muslim radicals..

What would you sooner observe?....

People arriving in Australia by air craft do have to have a passport and a visa.......Illegal boat people sent a txt message to Gillard to send  a water taxi to pick them up and tossing their IDs over board before hand....They did have passports and visas when they landed in Indonesia....So I ask you, why did they not want to identified?.....I know the answer.

Take your blinkers off....most  people with any common sense knew exactly what was happening.


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> If the processing had been kept at July 2013 rate by the Abbott Govt and the number of boat arrivals declined as they have; how many kids would be in detention now Noco? What would have been the subsequent cost to taxpayer for not having to build facilities,.........?



It's fantasy to think the boats would have stopped if we continued as business as usual from July 2013.

The situation would likely have got worse as at that time was getting worse. By that point, the Gillard government had reached the milestone of 1000 boat arrivals in a week.

Processing through the detention centres under the Gillard government became a rubber stamp as it was overwhelmed by the number of boat arrivals despite opening many detention centres both here and offshore. 

The boats don't stop magically through wishful thinking and the fundamental objective hasn't changed. That's preventing the seeking of asylum from becoming a commercial product for people smugglers to flog.


----------



## Tisme (14 October 2015)

noco said:


> The number of children in detention under Labor peeked at 2000........The current government has that figure down to around 100...not a bad effort in 2 years....but of course your buddies expect more.
> 
> 1250 men, women and children lost their lives at sea thanks to Rudd and Gillard's open boarder policy......none have been lost at sea since the Liberal Government came to power......
> 
> ...




Do you reckon you could hold off on the charged names and made up acronyms for just a few posts so some of us can see the points you are trying to make Noco.

Corrections:

1. Down to 100 in two years is pitiful and spiteful = human cargo used by Abbott to wound his political opponents
2. They are not my buddies; unlike your good self I am not welded to a political agenda, but a free thinker
3.  Your defense is always attack of your chosen insoluble hatred of anything non LNP so there is no room for any dialogue to the contrary.

My post was rhetorical, I didn't expect you or the other welded Liberal to counter, much less with any humanitarian bent. It's as if you think the ALP and Greens own the space that deals with empathy and welfare and their contiguous borders, so anyone expressing a degree of disgust at liars, cheats and opportunists with human tragedy are automatically ALP or Green supporters..... can I remind you of you grand master Menzies back in the sixties and how he made various welfare initiatives his own... or was he a LUGite too?


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Do you reckon you could hold off on the charged names and made up acronyms for just a few posts so some of us can see the points you are trying to make Noco.
> 
> Corrections:
> 
> ...



Who's the other to whom you refer to as a welded Liberal ?

If someone's had something to say to which you disagree, perhaps you could address that post directly.


----------



## noco (14 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Do you reckon you could hold off on the charged names and made up acronyms for just a few posts so some of us can see the points you are trying to make Noco.
> 
> Corrections:
> 
> ...




Wow, with all that rhetoric I have obviously hit a nerve which is still tingling in your body.

The answer I was seeking from you to my question was, why did the illegal boat people throw away their IDs?

You appear to have conveniently wriggled out of that one.


----------



## Tisme (14 October 2015)

noco said:


> W*ow, with all that rhetoric I have obviously hit a nerve* which is still tingling in your body.
> 
> The answer I was seeking from you to my question was, why did the illegal boat people throw away their IDs?
> 
> You appear to have conveniently wriggled out of that one.





Well no it hasn't..... I have no idea what asylum seekers do and if they are indeed illegals under the charter we are signatories too. I sure as 54it don't believe anything the lying mouths in Canberra tell the nation.

I'm annoyed that the green shoots Malcolm was showing died a death when he responded to that Greens idiot by attacking, instead of merely stating he was part of the previous policy. I was hoping we now had a leader rather than a twopenny polly.... even I get disappointed at my predictions coming true when it's not in the national interest.

and I still ask you give us all a break from the names and acronyms


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Well no it hasn't..... I have no idea what asylum seekers do and if they are indeed illegals under the charter we are signatories too. I sure as 54it don't believe anything the lying mouths in Canberra tell the nation.
> 
> I'm annoyed that the green shoots Malcolm was showing died a death when he responded to that Greens idiot by attacking, instead of merely stating he was part of the previous policy. I was hoping we now had a leader rather than a twopenny polly.... even I get disappointed at my predictions coming true when it's not in the national interest.
> 
> and I still ask you give us all a break from the names and acronyms



Who's the mystery welded Lib and what did they say to reduce you to name calling ?


----------



## drsmith (14 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Ha! Conscience.
> 
> The country is being robbed blind, with politicians being bought and paid for while the masses get to turn up once every few years to tick a box and go home to a house they can barely afford and will take a lifetime to pay off... with utilities being privatised like I-get-you-elected-you-sell-monopolies-to-me, leading to price gouging and profiteering like the good old days of the industrial revolution... and we're here bashing Muslims for wanting to build a place of worship, lock the kids up because while no one wants it it is necessary for security.
> 
> Priorities man.



There's a lot of comment in the above that's unrelated to the specific topic of this thread but that's perhaps a reflection of what the critics of the current government's border protection policies are reduced to in this thread.

If we were to scrap the detention network, how do we do that without incentivising illegal people smuggling activities ?

That's the question to which I'm yet to see an answer. What's not an answer is opening our borders as the Greens would like.


----------



## luutzu (14 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> There's a lot of comment in the above that's unrelated to the specific topic of this thread but that's perhaps a reflection of what the critics of the current government's border protection policies are reduced to in this thread.
> 
> If we were to scrap the detention network, how do we do that without incentivising illegal people smuggling activities ?
> 
> That's the question to which I'm yet to see an answer. What's not an answer is opening our borders as the Greens would like.




You may think they're unrelated, I obviously think otherwise.

Let's expand on it.

Turnbull talks about "conscience" right? That our turn back the boat policies are tough and considered harsh by some but it's necessary for our security and presumably our common wealth. It's tough but it's fair and reasonable and anyone who needs medical attention will get it, so we have a good conscience.

First, what harms a nation's common wealth? What takes away more of its treasure and opportunities to its people? Refugees or big corporations not paying their fair share of tax, or the oligarchs buying politicians and have these elected officials do their bidding?

Recent research found that in NSW and VIC, where electricity has been privatised to be more competitive, to save taxpayers money... in these two states, about 30 to 47% of the bills we all paid for power are purely profit to the power companies, only some 11% of what's paid by all of us are for the actual usage of the electricity itself.

Is that the kind of thing you'd do if it's the people and their money you're looking out for?
Did the refugees cause these kind of privatisation?

Or how about the removal of the carbon tax, the mining super profit tax? Did our power bills come down by much due to those? Has the miners keep people they no longer need because that's what they do or did they axe it the moment things look tough and taxpayers will have to fork out and step up to help the now unemployed workers? So taxpayers get jack all when the miners are doing really really well, and when not so well they fire people and write down assets so there's less profit to tax... and in the meantime, "sell" at low profit to their subsidiaries overseas, pay low tax on those low profits... 

This list can go on, but you get the point.

---

So now we have real Australians, struggling, not having enough uni places to educate themselves or their kids, having trade policies that favour the corps so that we're more "competitive" and more "innovative"... and we end up with struggling Australians competing with bloody refugees for jobs and for welfare.

We're told by our dear leaders that technology will change the workforce, globalisation will mean more competition for work and skills... and then they bloody defund higher education, saying it costs too much and will eventually privatise it too.. .going the way of the US where graduates owe on average $50 to $100k after getting a degree that might give them a shot at a decent job. 

---

So on the one hand our natural resources are being sold on the cheap; our taxation are being played around by those who could afford high priced accountants; and our human resources and potential are being vacated and abandoned, sold down the river and very soon only those whose parents are rich could even think about getting the kind of education for jobs that might last half their lifetime and not be done cheaper elsewhere.

So that's one hand... on the other, we sold our national conscience for a very high price to the likes of Transfield services and people smugglers we're all raving on against.

We don't know whether or not they're refugees because we told our patrol officers to not ask about it. Just tow them away or pay the smugglers... or if can't do either, put them on a raft and set it due north. If can't do all that, then let's put them in camps.

So we have struggling Aussies feeling threatened by refugees taking the doles and the jobs from them or their family and friends; or Aussies who are so indoctrinated to believe in the evil of a religion, a culture that anyone that looks like them ought to be lock up or turn around just in case they're coming all that way to bomb us or some crazy thing Arabs do.

Forgeting that research have shown refugees will, within a decade or two, made significant economic and cultural contribution to Australia personally, directly. Before that, they contribute by doing jobs no one wants to, getting paid at wages that's illegal etc. etc.

Meanwhile, the fat cats and their consultants are taking from us and may trickle down a few crumbs here and there... and we're fighting over what again? Muslims and refugees.

Bloody hell, you tax Google and Apple and BHP fairly like you'd tax the rest of the small folks, you could fund all university places and a few non-toll bridges and railways, and maybe could help a few refugees too.


----------



## qldfrog (15 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> You may think they're unrelated, I obviously think otherwise.
> ,,,.



Fully agree on where the money is lost and the real economic issues (tax avoidance etc) but:
will letting anyone in (as this is what the so called refugee debate is) change any of these economic/tax issues?
no
Will this worsen the situation for the majority of australian ? yes!

I would also strongly contest your statement that refugees contribute economically to society:
we are not talking migrants/italian/greeks coming in 50y ago, we are talking about a new wave of people who still are on welfare  80% of the time after 3/5 years from some souvenirs
Noco i am sure would be able to find figures and source!!!

But these were not LNP distorded figures.
We are probably to blame as we do not give them the opportunities
When there is no job for locals (aka ozzies) you do not bring in more people costs;
All this does not consider the cultural threat, so please luutzu, have a nice trip to Europe and see what migration (the one we are talking about) can do to annihilate both an economy and a culture.
And you should also remember that big business has always been for an open door policy, these big businesses rorting the tax system must have such a conscience, unless migration is a nice way to screw your workforce and increase your profit?
So who do you actually help on this debate?I am so cynical am I


----------



## drsmith (15 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Bloody hell, you tax Google and Apple and BHP fairly like you'd tax the rest of the small folks, you could fund all university places and a few non-toll bridges and railways, and maybe could help a few refugees too.



We already help more than a few through the humanitarian component of our immigration intake.

The substance of your argument in your post above seems to be to justify opening the door to people smuggling on the basis that two (or more) wrongs make a right. There's a fundamental admission in that that you recognise what you are advocating is wrong.


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## Tisme (15 October 2015)

I assume people trying the airlines route are put in a holding cell and flown back to whence they came.

I'm wondering if the conditions we detain the boat people in isn't worse than from whence they came?


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## SirRumpole (15 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm wondering if the conditions we detain the boat people in isn't worse than from whence they came?




That's the idea isn't it ?

So they decide to go back.


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## Tisme (15 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That's the idea isn't it ?
> 
> So they decide to go back.




I would guess so and in the process smear the nation with the odour. 

Might be a bit dangerous in the future visiting those origin countries and speaking in an Oz accent.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I would guess so and in the process smear the nation with the odour.
> 
> Might be a bit dangerous in the future visiting those origin countries and speaking in an Oz accent.




Yes I think you are right. Parts of Sri Lanka particularly.


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## luutzu (15 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Fully agree on where the money is lost and the real economic issues (tax avoidance etc) but:
> will letting anyone in (as this is what the so called refugee debate is) change any of these economic/tax issues?
> no
> Will this worsen the situation for the majority of australian ? yes!
> ...




Noco's figures? If I want biased and out of context reporting, I'd want it delivered by a pretty blond with cleavage showing like they do on Fox News and other media channels.

I'm not proposing open borders, never did. Don't know what the solution is, just know it's not either we lock them up out of sight like criminals or open and welcome all who crosses the seas. That and we do have international obligations to human rights and all that stuff.

The problem with all these Refugee debates is we put all the blame on the refugees for things they haven't yet had a chance to even try ruining.

So Italian migrants, Jewish refugees from WW2, other European refugees/migrants from WW2, Asian refugees, Irish potato famine refugees, First fleet convicts... they all managed to help contribute to Australia. These were convicts, from different cultures, different religion, no skills or little skills, most with zero money... but they all managed to, the majority of them, grow the country... except for Muslims? 

Muslim and Arab refugees come here, so we say, to live off welfare and bomb themselves and us up eventually... that or they breed and their adherence to Allah and Islam is a threat to our multi-cultural society?

----

Why are there so many refugees and economic migrants in recent years? Nothing to do with our or our allies' foreign policies?

Heard from experts that the Mexicans crossing into the US in droves soon after NAFTA trade agreement under Clinton flooded Mexico with American produce, sending Mexican farmers broke and those young enough tries to cross the border, work on American farms for low wages so they can send some money home to feed their folks.

Didn't Kerry say something about Climate Change refugees a few months ago? When the crops in poor countries die due to drought or flooding or generally wild weather patterns... chances are their gov't won't be stepping in to help with tax or any relieves.

I guess real tough people would stay and die on the land as God intended, most try to move to higher grounds or better land to start again.

And the dozen or so wars and generally unstable gov't in the ME... inflation, unemployment, death and general discomfort tend to happen when your country and neighbours are constantly at it. Again, people can stay and hope to live through it, or they might think that maybe 15 years of this and things are just heating up is about the right time to get the heck out of the place and let the warriors and peace makers go at it.

----

I thought I was trying to help the refugees and Australian in this debate. Can't help anyone if business can't make a buck or two out of it.


----------



## luutzu (15 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> We already help more than a few through the humanitarian component of our immigration intake.
> 
> The substance of your argument in your post above seems to be to justify opening the door to people smuggling on the basis that two (or more) wrongs make a right. There's a fundamental admission in that that you recognise what you are advocating is wrong.




What am I advocating?

Too much to ask that if people turn up seeking asylum, we sit them down and following international refugee convention that we're signatory to, that and just doing what any decent person would when someone run to them saying the bad people are after me, help me please... 

Not too much to sit them down and ask so how are you a refugee and not coming over here to take my mates job and get fat and lazy on our soon to be non-existence welfare programme?

If we found that they are not genuine refugee... we can simply say, look Ahmad you're just an economic migrant and unlucky for you you got to uni degree and no dollars at the bank so we can't take that kind of economic migrants - we only want ones that's not hungry nor poor.

Since you're no refugee, got no cash, and our humanitarian fund is being spent all over Iraq and Syria to the tune of about $1billion since ISIS, IS, ISIL turn up a couple years ago... we're kinda low on liberating and humanitarian freedom fund building stuff. So off you go, nice try but sorry buddy.

If Ahmad is found to be a genuine refugee... well we can lock him up and wait til next calendar year where the new quota with appropriate mix of skilled and dollar rich economic migrants with appropriate skin tone and religion then maybe put him into one of the refugee headcounts.

Instead, we don't ask so we don't know... we bribe people smugglers and do all the brave and heroic stuff our leaders brags on about... then say, ey refos... see those illegals on those islands in those camps? Yea! some of them were children when they came and now they're children no more... so let that be  a lesson to you! You want free and easy money? Got to have money first.


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## noco (15 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Noco's figures? If I want biased and out of context reporting, I'd want it delivered by a pretty blond with cleavage showing like they do on Fox News and other media channels.
> 
> I'm not proposing open borders, never did. Don't know what the solution is, just know it's not either we lock them up out of sight like criminals or open and welcome all who crosses the seas. That and we do have international obligations to human rights and all that stuff.
> 
> ...




Perhaps you should go and preach your HUMAN RIGHTS BS to ISIS and many of those radical Islamic lunatics.


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## luutzu (15 October 2015)

noco said:


> Perhaps you should go and preach your HUMAN RIGHTS BS to ISIS and many of those radical Islamic lunatics.




But they might say the same as you're saying, then chop my head off.
That's if I'm allowed to go there by our govt.


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## qldfrog (15 October 2015)

Luutzu,
Being immigrant myself, I am probably less radical than noco,  my entries in this thread are just motivated by my western europe experience where once  muslim immigration reached a significant percentage, it all went to sh#t and both economy, citizens and overall culture were annihilated;
Yet these european countries are countries of migration.But you can not integrate nor cohabit with migrants who have no respect for you or your culture yet agree to parasite it while trying to destroy it;
We should not blame them: as I say only 6 billions to go;
It is natural to try to go and get a better life elsewhere if you can;
Each individual  is quite justified to try.
After all, migrants in western europe were a key factor in my wish to migrate myself.
And I am so happy I did it move here, more than ever, but the host countries must serve their own interest, otherwise you just move from a ****ty place to another which become as sh&& as the one you left:
look at Lebanon and the palestinian refugeesl
I am sure we can agree Lebanon got destroyed by its conscience, yet the Palestinian at the time were true refugees, not economic migrants
anyway, you will not change your opinion , maybe the day you have children you may start redirecting your views.
In any case, thanks for all the actors here to have kept polite and decent.


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## drsmith (15 October 2015)

SHY who prematurely cheered via Twitter that OSB was dead in late 2013 sfter the SBY spying issue broke and who also is only too willing to dismiss deaths at sea as accidents and tragedies that happen is at it again,



> Hanson-Young says public don't want babies born on 'prison island'




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...-transferring-pregnant-asylum-seekers/6856708

Meanwhile, it would seem that some parents are choosing to keep their children in detention.

Part of a response from Peter Dutton in reply to a question from Clive Palmer in QT yesterday,



> So that leaves 17 children in detention here in Australia””those that have come here by boat. We are working with those parents and with the agencies, including a ASIO, to determine how we might how we might get those children out. It is difficult in a number of circumstances because there may be an adverse ASIO assessment against the father, for example, and I have made it very clear that that father will not be released into the community whilst that person poses a national security risk to our country. I think all members in this place would support that stance. In those instances, I have said to the mother, for example, that we will allow her release with the children into the community because we do not have a security concern in relation to them. In some circumstances those parents have taken the decision that the mother and children can be released, and in some circumstances they have decided to remain in detention with the father. We will work through each of those cases.




http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/9719682d-09af-4772-a03a-a954ad5d7b6a/0000"


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## noco (15 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> SHY who prematurely cheered via Twitter that OSB was dead in late 2013 sfter the SBY spying issue broke and who also is only too willing to dismiss deaths at sea as accidents and tragedies that happen is at it again,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doc, you are so right as to the reason why there are still a few children in detention camps......The Liberal Party unlike the Labor will not rubber stamp the release of these kids fathers due to the security risk they may impose.

So will the Labor party  whinging do gooders please pull their horns in and do some research as to why these kids are still in detention.


----------



## luutzu (16 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Luutzu,
> Being immigrant myself, I am probably less radical than noco,  my entries in this thread are just motivated by my western europe experience where once  muslim immigration reached a significant percentage, it all went to sh#t and both economy, citizens and overall culture were annihilated;
> Yet these european countries are countries of migration.But you can not integrate nor cohabit with migrants who have no respect for you or your culture yet agree to parasite it while trying to destroy it;
> We should not blame them: as I say only 6 billions to go;
> ...




It might be that when the Arabs and Muslims move into the country, say France, the place goes to crab. From that it's reasonable to draw correlation between parasitic refugees who do not assimilate, do not work but just suck the country dry.

Maybe that is actually the case in Europe, I don't know. But from economists and the news and experience and observations I've made... I do not think that is the case at all.

Sure when new immigrants, particularly poor refugees not knowing a word of English or the dominant language... sure when they move in, property prices will drop, there will be crimes from some or most of them, drugs pushing and all the bad stuff that's all over the news. But from what I know from within my own community, crimes are committed by some, not all;

Most refugees works hard, try to make the best they can with whatever help the gov't can give and with whatever work they could find... being poor and not knowing the new culture or the language, they will have to live around each other. Have said this before...

Point is, what you observed there, while some aspect of it are criminal activities and anti-social behaviour... those could simply be due to people being poor, desperate, greedy and lazy... There's a bunch of such people in any group you care to classify.

But to blame what is, in the grand scheme of things, petty crimes and pennies of waste and gov't spending... to blame the lost jobs, the lower wages, the lack of opportunities and general economic and social decline the majority of natives suffers... to blame all that on refugees fleecing off taxpayers, or abusing the adopted countries generosity and turn terrorist or criminal against the hand that feed and welcome them... such attribution have no basis in fact.

And that's not being PR or turning a blind eye or class warfare... 

If you look at research on income inequality, declining wages in the US, say... These have nothing to do with refugees or immigrants. It's the steady redistribution of wealth upwards - making laws that favour the rich and their corporations, tax cuts and redefinition of income, more taxes on the working class through payroll, toll roads, higher utility costs etc. etc.

So the working class have to have both parents working, working more jobs or more hours with lower and lower wages; greater and greater job insecurity; job loses and no training provided for jobs of the future or whatever they're called... 

So the working class get poorer, working harder but not making ends meet... Who to blame?

Ask politicians and as if they'll tell you they're to blame. They make the dam laws but the laws are fine and fair.
Asks the media and who do they serve? The readers or the corporations who buy ads and commercial air time?

So if a person look around, being misled by their leaders and their journalists... nothing have changed but for the immigrants, the refugees, the "other" groups. I mean, look at them, they're not like us, they're so poor and making us poorer; we're too generous and being generous we're suffering for it; the rich are so clean and well dressed and so how could they make the country poor? They're rich because they're smart and work hard etc. etc.

-----

No. Lebanon is not destroyed by its conscience for the Palestinian refugees. Sure it is a strain on them... but if you look at Israel's periodic airstrikes on Lebanon... Israel has been at war with Lebanon many times, and when it's not an official war they flew a few sorties and target Lebanon's infrastructures - roads, power station etc.

---

I have three children. All young kids. I am surrounded by Muslims and Arabs... so trust me, if anyone has an interests in whether or not they're safe to be around, I'm one of them. If anyone has interests in how their tax dollar is to be spent, I'm quite keen where it goes.

All these debates and time on refugees and welfare and liberal socialist stuff... it's not just pure generosity or unthinking fluff. It's out of self interests - for ourselves and for our children.

If we care for our children, why would we stand by and let other people and other children being discriminated against? Our kids might be homosexual, we might be poor and the kids poor with us and will struggle...

Why let politicians lie and misled and act "tough" on helpless people? Those that can do that will do worst, and not necessarily to other people either.

Anyway... we live in a society, and in society looking out for the other is looking out for ourselves too. Only the dump and the rich think they could do well and live well by destroying other people. That's why revolution and revolts always happen every few generations throughout history.


----------



## qldfrog (16 October 2015)

Luutzu 
very coherent argument
I understand asI could have held the same when I was 18y old and so but my personal experience from living within the estates and cohabiting from 18y old or so  till leaving to move to Oz has made me do a U turn.
I hope you are right and the refugees moving in Oz are different: after all, it is more expensive and harder so maybe you have a selection in place, plus are we talking immigrants or refugees?
 I am 100% sure arab/muslim/black/yellow/green  or red: migrants who came under selection point, with proper process are 150% valuable to this country and I welcome them.
I just believe the asylum seekers are different.
Would be VERY happy to be proven wrong in the future.
All the best for your families, I will slow on this thread as i can not add much more


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## SirRumpole (16 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> .
> I just believe the asylum seekers are different.




That's because they are different. They invite themselves into our country without being asked, and in doing so they put strains on our finances for which we are unprepared.

Of course people will say we are a rich country, but with a $40 bn pa Federal  deficit and government debts of $700 bn , we are not a rich country any more.


----------



## noco (16 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That's because they are different. They invite themselves into our country without being asked, and in doing so they put strains on our finances for which we are unprepared.
> 
> Of course people will say we are a rich country, but with a $40 bn pa Federal  deficit and government debts of $700 bn , we are not a rich country any more.





Yes, what an unholy mess we find ourselves in after 6 years of hard Labor and please don't repeat that crap about the GFC.


----------



## Tisme (16 October 2015)

noco said:


> Doc, you are so right as to the reason why there are still a few children in detention camps......The Liberal Party unlike the Labor will not rubber stamp the release of these kids fathers due to the security risk they may impose.
> 
> So will the Labor party  whinging do gooders please pull their horns in and do some research as to why these kids are still in detention.




Got any proof of what you are saying or merely rubber stamping what one of you political idols is supposedly saying? I bet you believe no boats have attempted or managed to arrive either.


The only potential Labor party advocate here doesn't seem to be onside with allowing people in and certainly isn't a whinging do gooder as far as I can ascertain...in fact you two seem rather pally?


----------



## Tisme (16 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That's because they are different. They invite themselves into our country without being asked, and in doing so they put strains on our finances for which we are unprepared.
> 
> Of course people will say we are a rich country, but with a $40 bn pa Federal  deficit and government debts of $700 bn , we are not a rich country any more.




What have they spending it on....Abbott's infrastructure   Or maybe the $21bn NBN Lite that is now at $70bn and growing   Doubled the deficit in less than two years ...... I want them handling my portfolio and running my business affairs NOT!


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## SirRumpole (16 October 2015)

noco said:


> Yes, what an unholy mess we find ourselves in after 6 years of hard Labor and please don't repeat that crap about the GFC.




So the GFC was an illusion was it ?


----------



## luutzu (16 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Luutzu
> very coherent argument
> I understand asI could have held the same when I was 18y old and so but my personal experience from living within the estates and cohabiting from 18y old or so  till leaving to move to Oz has made me do a U turn.
> I hope you are right and the refugees moving in Oz are different: after all, it is more expensive and harder so maybe you have a selection in place, plus are we talking immigrants or refugees?
> ...




I don't think they're different in a bad way. Different in that their personal circumstances and experience will mean they'll work harder, put up with a lot more... not out of some greatness or whatever, but out of necessity and out of the fact that they've been given a second chance in life.

Most refugees, and most people, who went through such experience tend to try their best not to stay idle and live off of welfare. And since most refugees are from poor and war-torn countries, they will most likely have parents and relatives back home who needs financial help... So they will work harder to not just take care of their family here, but so they can send some back to support those who weren't so lucky.

I've read a report last year that actually show these stuff.


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## SirRumpole (16 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> I don't think they're different in a bad way. Different in that their personal circumstances and experience will mean they'll work harder, put up with a lot more... not out of some greatness or whatever, but out of necessity and out of the fact that they've been given a second chance in life.
> 
> Most refugees, and most people, who went through such experience tend to try their best not to stay idle and live off of welfare. And since most refugees are from poor and war-torn countries, they will most likely have parents and relatives back home who needs financial help... So they will work harder to not just take care of their family here, but so they can send some back to support those who weren't so lucky.
> 
> I've read a report last year that actually show these stuff.




I hate to disillusion you because while your statements may well have been true for European and Vietnamese refugees the same is not the case for Middle Eastern refugees as this report shows.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...-report-suggests/story-fnu2pwk8-1227529223781


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## luutzu (16 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So the GFC was an illusion was it ?




What GFC? Some see crisis, others see opportunity 

Those banks that brought the US to the brink... they've gotten bigger since the GFC. JP Morgan I heard has gotten 50% bigger, and the top 10 banks in the US now controls about 44% of the US deposits and financial assets.

The last time they ruin stuff, they were too big to fail and got bailed out, their CEO got bigger bonuses and a few of them are now billionaires. And the Obama justice dept., as Ben Bernanke recently said in an interview, were not prosecuting any wrong doers but threaten to prosecute "the bank" itself - an entity that is hard to put into prison. So they pay a fine instead.

With that kind of incentives to take risk and win I win, lose I win bigger... it's going to be a big franchise.


----------



## noco (16 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Got any proof of what you are saying or merely rubber stamping what one of you political idols is supposedly saying? I bet you believe no boats have attempted or managed to arrive either.
> 
> 
> The only potential Labor party advocate here doesn't seem to be onside with allowing people in and certainly isn't a whinging do gooder as far as I can ascertain...in fact you two seem rather pally?




That rubber stamping of illegals by Labor is not only my opinion but the opinion of others.

I refer you to post # 3605

Labor had no alternative but to push them out into the community without proper security checks due to lack of detention centers...The detentions centers were full to overflowing ......Christmas Island was designed for some 1700 but on occasions had over 2500........ Labor were even putting them up in motels at the tax payers expense....

So if you cannot see past your nose on this one well, I am afraid I cannot help you.


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## noco (16 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So the GFC was an illusion was it ?




Rumpy, I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand what really went on during the GFC and how Labor went overboard with erratic spending on roof insulation, overpriced school halls and the $11 billion + wasted on illegal immigrants, cash for clunkers, fuel watch and food watch and lots of other hare brain schemes.

I am not saying there was no GFC, just that it was exaggerated by Labor and they panicked. 

Most of us know and understand if Labor had been a lot more practical and used some common sense in planning and forethought instead of thought bubbles on the back of a dinner napkin, then I strongly believe they could have done twice as much with half the money they wasted.


----------



## luutzu (16 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I hate to disillusion you because while your statements may well have been true for European and Vietnamese refugees the same is not the case for Middle Eastern refugees as this report shows.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...-report-suggests/story-fnu2pwk8-1227529223781




$700m for 12,000 refugees? That's $58k each? I'm definitely sure those $58K won't go into their pockets.

We're refugees, I know a lot of refugees. Australia was, I am guessing, much more generous and welcoming and probably more economically well off back then than now... But those financial generosity were never on the scale Morrison is talking about. He's talking rubbish... it's some sick game man.

And why is it a surprise that on average, an adult refugee who doesn't know the language or the people or the environment well, to earn much less than a skilled migrant? 

We're all people, we're much more similar than we look.
Compare ours to a monkey's DNA, there something like 1% or less difference. Skin colour or attending different group hug each week does not change our inherent similarities that much.


----------



## drsmith (16 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> ...in fact you two seem rather pally?



If there's something I've said to which you disagree then please by all means have the stomach to respond directly.


----------



## luutzu (16 October 2015)

noco said:


> Rumpy, I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand what really went on during the GFC and how Labor went overboard with erratic spending on roof insulation, overpriced school halls and the $11 billion + wasted on illegal immigrants, cash for clunkers, fuel watch and food watch and lots of other hare brain schemes.
> 
> I am not saying there was no GFC, just that it was exaggerated by Labor and they panicked.
> 
> Most of us know and understand if Labor had been a lot more practical and used some common sense in planning and forethought instead of thought bubbles on the back of a dinner napkin, then I strongly believe they could have done twice as much with half the money they wasted.




It was the commodity boom and those "waste" that kept Australia out of the Great Recession. 

Gov't "waste" like building things create jobs noco. 

How's cutting mining tax and carbon tax and hoping those cuts will mean more money for corporation and with more money they'll keep hiring people; with carbon tax gone all Australians will get cheaper power bills... how's that going?


----------



## drsmith (16 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> It was the commodity boom and those "waste" that kept Australia out of the Great Recession.
> 
> Gov't "waste" like building things create jobs noco.
> 
> How's cutting mining tax and carbon tax and hoping those cuts will mean more money for corporation and with more money they'll keep hiring people; with carbon tax gone all Australians will get cheaper power bills... how's that going?



Again, we seem to be drifting from the topic at hand.


----------



## luutzu (16 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> Again, we seem to be drifting from the topic at hand.




Didn't the refugees cause the bankers and fund managers to take their eyes off the ball and crash the world economy? That and wasting gov't and taxpayers $11 billion, causing a big massive dent in the couple trillion or so that was also lost?

Serious though... the GFC did result in a lot of refugees all over the world. Soon after it, there were revolutions in a few ME countries - price of bread and food sky rocketed; then wars; In countries without wars, laid offs and pensioners seeing their savings either lost or drastically reduced... fun for all the world. So much so they're doing it again.


----------



## drsmith (16 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Didn't the refugees cause the bankers and fund managers to take their eyes off the ball and crash the world economy? That and wasting gov't and taxpayers $11 billion, causing a big massive dent in the couple trillion or so that was also lost?
> 
> Serious though... the GFC did result in a lot of refugees all over the world. Soon after it, there were revolutions in a few ME countries - price of bread and food sky rocketed; then wars; In countries without wars, laid offs and pensioners seeing their savings either lost or drastically reduced... fun for all the world. So much so they're doing it again.



Again, little to do with the topic at hand.

Australia has a humanitarian component to it's immigration intake specifically for those fleeing persecution. Those who argue for more should argue within that framework and not through encouraging people smuggling.


----------



## luutzu (16 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> Again, little to do with the topic at hand.
> 
> Australia has a humanitarian component to it's immigration intake specifically for those fleeing persecution. Those who argue for more should argue within that framework and not through encouraging people smuggling.




Arabs, bad;
Refugees, bad;
Arab refugees, really bad;
Christian Arab refugees, less bad but still bad;

back on topic now?


----------



## drsmith (16 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Arabs, bad;
> Refugees, bad;
> Arab refugees, really bad;
> Christian Arab refugees, less bad but still bad;
> ...



No.

We don't have to compromise our sovereignty as a nation in order to accept refugees.


----------



## noco (16 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> It was the commodity boom and those "waste" that kept Australia out of the Great Recession.
> 
> Gov't "waste" like building things create jobs noco.
> 
> How's cutting mining tax and carbon tax and hoping those cuts will mean more money for corporation and with more money they'll keep hiring people; with carbon tax gone all Australians will get cheaper power bills... how's that going?




 Whilst I am aware this is off topic, I will nevertheless give you my answer again.

You don't seem to get, do you?

I am not denying the fact that there was a GFC throughout the world with Australia  the least affected and that there was a necessity to stimulate the economy but not to the extravagance the Labor party took us into...
Most of us know the history of Labor's poor economic management and to send out those "DUDD" $900 cheques to wealthy people, dead people and people overseas was just plain crazy...Most of the money went into gambling or the purchase of Chinese  manufactured goods......Now it all has to be paid back in some form or another.

*THE MINING TAX* 

The worlds greatest treasurer, Wayne Swan, introduced the mining tax which cost heaps to administer and produced no tax.....Tax that Swannie spent before he even received it...Another dud Labor idea.

*THE CARBON DIOXIDE TAX*

The elimination of the carbon tax did more than just reduce domestic power bills, it also reduced many business cost, consequently these companies were able to employ more people, something you were so adamant about.

And a lot of people, perhaps including yourself, did not realize that 10% of the carbon dioxide tax went to the UN Climate Change committee.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 October 2015)

noco said:


> .Most of the money went into gambling or the purchase of Chinese  manufactured goods....




I thought the Chinese were your great mates,or have you joined the CFMEU and gone racist ?


----------



## noco (16 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought the Chinese were your great mates,or have you joined the CFMEU and gone racist ?




Now Rumpy, how did you work that out or was just another thought bubble again?

I think I would join the Fabians before I joined the CFMEU.........ROFL.

The Fabians might just be slightly the lessor of two evils.

:topic


----------



## luutzu (17 October 2015)

noco said:


> Whilst I am aware this is off topic, I will nevertheless give you my answer again.
> 
> You don't seem to get, do you?
> 
> ...




Dr Evil will give me a hard time again... but anyway.

Heard Keynes' great idea to get countries out of a recession was for the gov't to spend money. They could spend it hiring people to dig up sand at beaches and bury bottles or wasting it again hiring people to dig it up and clean it off etc. As long as gov't spend money, it goes into the pocket of people, people will get taxed from those income but will spend the rest, their spending stimulate demand in other sector, those sector hire people and they all get taxed and the gov't will get their money back multiple times and out of the recession/depression.

Since we're smarter than just burying bottles, we build roads, expand freeways, insulate houses, buy back clunkers, give some bonuses etc. Not saying it was all planned well or executed well, and yes there were wastage and deaths from the insulation not being supervised or regulated properly... But as I've said elsewhere before, a few economists I've heard have said Australia got thru the GFC due to such policies and the commodity boom.

Now if the superprofit was taxed, and from memory the coupe happen soon after it was passed but not yet implemented... who knows, we might be a bit better off. Instead we got diddly and the miners still fire people any way.

--- 
Yes, carbon tax was not just electricity bills... it would have put a cost on polluting the air we all breathe. That's a good thing because air shouldn't be freely polluted right? A cost will encourage less reliance on old fossil fuel, would encourage the search and investment into alternative and cleaner sources of fuel etc. etc.

Don't know what happen to the electricity but the bills I've been paying have remain the same or higher over pass few years.

---

If Abbott has any sense, he would have fast tracked a few infrastructure projects, manufacturing contracts for trains or patrol vessels to turn back the boats or something... maybe a few thousand orange rafts just in case. Instead nothing of note was really done past couple years and how many thousands of mine workers and factory workers were fired and there's no spending and investment to stimulate any kind of activity.

Got record low interest rates, literally borrowing money for free for a decade if we want to... and we sit around looking at ways to cut spending, join foreign adventures, jack up datacentres to collect stuff.

Anyway, everything that costs money can be call spending and waste... just sometime it might also be call investments with enormous return potentials too. 

But ey, make the country broke enough and you can sell and privatise public assets with little protests at all. If i'm really rich and as civic minded as all billionaires are, I'd think it's a good idea that I buy cash cows and monopolies too.


----------



## luutzu (17 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> No.
> 
> We don't have to compromise our sovereignty as a nation in order to accept refugees.




No body is asking that we do.

People and society changes. Just like how descendants of the First Fleet and the other fleets from Britain and the UK afterwards do not consider themselves British but Australian - complete with beer guts, Bonds singlets, bogan accents, freckles and all true blue aussie blood... people of other countries and other races will consider themselves Australian too.

Why would anyone want to, if they can, turn Australia into where they came from? For refugees it's a warzone where they came from... it's really corrupt, the poor have no hope of rising anywhere but to Heaven. So to think they would come here and want to make it like back home is really thinking people would go against their own self-interests and against some sort of developed, higher sense of faculty like reason and gratitude and empathy.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Why would anyone want to, if they can, turn Australia into where they came from?




It's part of the Muslim religion to try and convert others to their cause or kill them. Sure that's an extremist view, but while it's written in the book some will try to do it. 

That's why there have been calls to impose Sharia law in Australia. It was not going to happen but that doesn't stop some people from trying. It will happen again when the Muslim population gets to a certain level, if we let it.


----------



## basilio (17 October 2015)

That story on the use of drones to assassinate people around the world is horrific.

Its not simply the brutal banality of the process. The seriously horrific part is the  the number of mistakes made, wrong intelligence and the fact that anyone else who is killed is simply labelled as a terrorist to justify their killings.

*What would be the uproar in the West if a single prominent government/military official was killed by a drone attack from another country ?*


----------



## drsmith (17 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> No body is asking that we do.
> 
> People and society changes. Just like how descendants of the First Fleet and the other fleets from Britain and the UK afterwards do not consider themselves British but Australian - complete with beer guts, Bonds singlets, bogan accents, freckles and all true blue aussie blood... people of other countries and other races will consider themselves Australian too.
> 
> Why would anyone want to, if they can, turn Australia into where they came from? For refugees it's a warzone where they came from... it's really corrupt, the poor have no hope of rising anywhere but to Heaven. So to think they would come here and want to make it like back home is really thinking people would go against their own self-interests and against some sort of developed, higher sense of faculty like reason and gratitude and empathy.



Again, little to do with the topic at hand.

When are you going to recognise that we have a humanitarian component to our immigration program to assist those fleeing persecution and that the services of illegal people smuggling operations are neither required or represent a desired alternative ?


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> It's part of the Muslim religion to try and convert others to their cause or kill them. Sure that's an extremist view, but while it's written in the book some will try to do it.
> 
> That's why there have been calls to impose Sharia law in Australia. It was not going to happen but that doesn't stop some people from trying. It will happen again when the Muslim population gets to a certain level, if we let it.




Don't know, if i was handsome enough back in the days or those Catholic girls in the Youth Group were into the rugged manly type, I might have been a Christian by now 


All religion wrote and preach stuff like that. Judaism, Christianity, Islam... same God, as in the exact same Being... just different Prophet... they all see themselves as the one true whatever and all others have not seen the light, will need to be civilised and brought back to God/Allah/Yahweh [?]

Take Judaism as currently practised by the state of Israel. There's a bunch of crazy Jewish extremist who believe the land of Israel as promised to them by God stretches from the Jordan River to the Med.Sea (it's on their flag)... this includes Jordan, the West Bank and Egyptian Sinai peninsula. Egypt beat it out of Sinai back in the 1967 war [?], Jordan is still around but according to them, let's take the West Bank then tommorow the world - as God promised.

Take Christian colonisation of the Americas and practically everywhere else since the 16th century... God and country (and gold and silk and tea and coffee and oil and land...).

Every country and culture want to dominate, question is can they? With what army?


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2015)

basilio said:


> That story on the use of drones to assassinate people around the world is horrific.
> 
> Its not simply the brutal banality of the process. The seriously horrific part is the  the number of mistakes made, wrong intelligence and the fact that anyone else who is killed is simply labelled as a terrorist to justify their killings.
> 
> *What would be the uproar in the West if a single prominent government/military official was killed by a drone attack from another country ?*




It's insane. 

Some strikes don't even need intelligence or have any cause - just the movement or gathering or some "signature" that seem suspicious and booom... the group and everyone around them are considered terrorist until they can prove otherwise - and I'm not making that up.

But it's done because no one else can do anything about it... so they tells us.

Heard some debate a while back about China being militarily weak and inexperience since they haven't been at war themselves for four decades. Some guy was saying... and neither has the West because the kind of war the West has been involved with are against weak enemies, enemies without comparable air force or naval capabilities, or Nukes.

The US tend to forget that when WW2 broke out, their armed forces were still using tools and tactics from WW1, trained with wooden rifles and got some breathing room because of the two oceans kept the other empires at each other.

Hubris.


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> Again, little to do with the topic at hand.
> 
> When are you going to recognise that we have a humanitarian component to our immigration program to assist those fleeing persecution and that the services of illegal people smuggling operations are neither required or represent a desired alternative ?




If people smugglers don't get refugees out, how do you think the refugees could get out of their country?

Not everyone have a boat, or could afford an entire boat. Refugees can't fake documents or know who to bribe to get through their border security... etc. etc. So the services of people smugglers are required... that why they're operating.

Again, not advocating open border or open arms policies. Just more thought and more attention to our international obligations.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> If people smugglers don't get refugees out, how do you think the refugees could get out of their country?
> 
> .




So why do we have refugees from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan in Australia ? Those countries are on the other side of the world. How many safe countries in between ?


----------



## Tisme (18 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So why do we have refugees from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan in Australia ? Those countries are on the other side of the world.




Preparing the way for the rest of them, including our next door neighbours?


----------



## luutzu (18 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So why do we have refugees from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan in Australia ? Those countries are on the other side of the world. How many safe countries in between ?




I'm just guessing, but they might have used people smugglers or some might know other parts of the border that's not guarded as well. Depends on the country and its state of affairs... most borders are partrolled, and those not would have been too dangerous. 

Again, I've never said welcome everyone and forget about border protection... all am saying is we're obligated to see if they are genuine refugees or not; if they are, what can we do about it. Does our budget and demographic intakes permit us to take them in, or do we ask other states or the UN etc. etc.

There are things that can be done that's right by us and not so "tough". It's very easy to not give a hoot about people and do what is politically popular; very tough to do what's right. But since manliness is about treating others like trash, why not.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> I
> 
> Again, I've never said welcome everyone and forget about border protection... all am saying is we're obligated to see if they are genuine refugees or not; if they are, what can we do about it. Does our budget and demographic intakes permit us to take them in, or do we ask other states or the UN etc. etc.




Yes, I agree, but what do we do about those who don't cooperate and expect us to prove that they are not genuine ? The ones who throw away their ID's and won't tell us what country they are from.

That's probably a reason why they haven't been processed, it should be up to them to prove their case, not ours to disprove it.


----------



## noco (19 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, I agree, but what do we do about those who don't cooperate and expect us to prove that they are not genuine ? The ones who throw away their ID's and won't tell us what country they are from.
> 
> That's probably a reason why they haven't been processed, it should be up to them to prove their case, not ours to disprove it.




Very true......I am with you all the way on this one.

The ones that throw away their IDs are economic refugees and are not fleeing  persecution.

I say let them stay on Manus and Nauru until they decide they have had enough and go back to their home land....In many cases this has happened.


----------



## luutzu (19 October 2015)

noco said:


> Very true......I am with you all the way on this one.
> 
> The ones that throw away their IDs are economic refugees and are not fleeing  persecution.
> 
> I say let them stay on Manus and Nauru until they decide they have had enough and go back to their home land....In many cases this has happened.




From what I know of the other group of refugees, refugees tend not to bring their ID and genuine document along with them. 

So the passports you see being thrown away... those may very well be the fake ones that got them across borders.

What tend to happen is once they reach refugee camps, they then write home to relative or parents or whoever is still alive, and ask if the document can be sent over to the camps.

When you escape, you can't exactly go to the gov't and ask for new set of passports and IDs.. and you tend not to bring them along in case you get caught and they know who you are, who your family is and chase after them for money or other repercussion etc. etc.

Anyway... if we're interested, take a look at the refugees' country of origin and see if there's been a war there recently or still on going. There might be some correlation there.

And if Climate Change ever happen, where sea level rises and salt farmland and deltas, or turn somewhat arid places to desert and flood others... We'll definitely see economic migrants then... or as John Kerry and other greenies labeled them: Climate Change refugee. Though Kerry might have been a bit clever there and not put the blame on the freedom liberation stuff they're involved with that's causing refugees.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> What tend to happen is once they reach refugee camps, they then write home to relative or parents or whoever is still alive, and ask if the document can be sent over to the camps.




So surely they could do that from Nauru ?



> Anyway... if we're interested, take a look at the refugees' country of origin and see if there's been a war there recently or still on going. There might be some correlation there.




We get a lot of refugees from Iran and there is no war going on there. Not a nice place to live but the same could be said of a lot of places.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So surely they could do that from Nauru ?
> 
> 
> 
> We get a lot of refugees from Iran and there is no war going on there. Not a nice place to live but the same could be said of a lot of places.




It's rather interesting how my Iranian friends insist on calling themselves Persian?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> It's rather interesting how my Iranian friends insist on calling themselves Persian?




Rug salesmen are they ?


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Rug salesmen are they ?





I think they are astro astrophysicists with one of the technology arms of comm govt. I don't ask and they don't tell, but kids tend to communicate these things.

Astro_rugs for Sinbad?


----------



## luutzu (19 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So surely they could do that from Nauru ?
> 
> 
> 
> We get a lot of refugees from Iran and there is no war going on there. Not a nice place to live but the same could be said of a lot of places.




Don't know. Just telling you what I knew from experiences and relatives. 

Iran, the State formerly known as part of the Axis of Evil, is in negotiation with Australia to take back Iranian asylum seekers,
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/28495080/canberra-ready-to-deport-iranians/



> In return for taking back failed asylum seekers, Australia would offer scholarships to Iranian university students.
> 
> The Government may even agree to turn down its strong travel warning advising Australians not to go to Iran.
> 
> Australia would also offer Iranian citizens work and holiday visas and Iran might be allowed to build consulates in Sydney and Melbourne.




woohoo... guess whose kids tend to have outstanding scholastic ability deserving of Australian visas and non-bribery of their parents to take back failed refugees?

----

A lot is going wrong with the country when its citizens are worried about non-English speaking, poor and otherwise complete stranger in strange land taking their jobs and their resources. It's very close to being stuffed when most politicians, media, "journalists" and some "intellectuals" point the finger at desperate people and some if not most of us think... yeaaa... I can see how my kids can't get a job, why we're over there bombing their people...

Should watch Chomsky... he nail this issue in a few sentence, and does it without blinking because it's so obvious.


----------



## sptrawler (19 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> From what I know of the other group of refugees, refugees tend not to bring their ID and genuine document along with them.
> 
> So the passports you see being thrown away... those may very well be the fake ones that got them across borders.
> 
> ...




The only problem with those noble thoughts, Iuutzu, the refugees travel through many safe Countries without seeking refuge.
They are hell bent on reaching Countries, that have the most favourable welfare systems.

The problem with that is, a welfare system is like a co operative, it can only survive when people who take out have actually put in.

What we are now trying to fund is, those who have never put in and have no intention of putting in, have to be funded by those who are no longer working.

See how long that works for,  before it implodes. 

As technology improves and jobs disappear, someone has to pay for all this welfare, I don't personally care one way or another.
But you younger people really need to have a think, about sustainability.IMO


----------



## qldfrog (20 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> It's rather interesting how my Iranian friends insist on calling themselves Persian?



By culture, iranians are not arabs, nor do they use arab as a language if I remember well 
and once you know arabs a bit more  (Luutzu will have a field day here)  you understand their behaviour;

Iran has a strong and magnificient culture aka greece, last 40y has been a disaster for Iran,  complicated by a demographic time bomb due to the mollahs in power but they still have many educated people who are well well above the level of your average westerner, or aussie, not that it is a hard task to do!
PS I am not persian


----------



## luutzu (20 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> The only problem with those noble thoughts, Iuutzu, the refugees travel through many safe Countries without seeking refuge.
> They are hell bent on reaching Countries, that have the most favourable welfare systems.
> 
> The problem with that is, a welfare system is like a co operative, it can only survive when people who take out have actually put in.
> ...




As my mother said, I live off gov't handouts but my children will repay it. I haven't made much contribution to Australia, but raised kids so that they will   Four out of five ain't bad 

I think perception is that refugees are burdensome, will remain so and keep draining our resources; whereas skilled migrants bring in skills and capital and won't rely or spend our resources at all.

Don't think that's true. Pot luck.

-----

I really think that welfare and medicare is a right, not some kind of state generosity and kindness as it's often made out to be.

Really tired of politicians living off of taxpayers largess, retiring on very generous "long service" pensions, being flown, housed, guarded, staffed while they work - or just fund raising... at taxpayers expense then turn around and say "we" can't be that generous, we can't spend this and that (as much as we'd like to, of course). 

So we all have to make sacrifices. Heard the same stuff from the comrades in VN. The nation is poor, we all must play our parts, pay your taxes so that the motherland grow rich and strong... and so I can send my kids overseas to study while yours will have to put up with one of 3 school shifts per day since there's no money to build any school and you'll have to either fork up extra for private tuition or else your kids can't read.

----


----------



## SirRumpole (20 October 2015)

> I really think that welfare and medicare is a right, not some kind of state generosity and kindness as it's often made out to be.




Medicare yes, because its a service available to everyone in return for taxes paid.

Welfare is a privilege paid to those who generally can't afford to pay taxes and so is being paid by someone elses taxes and therefore should be earned in another way; eg work for the dole.

We just can't afford to continually pay some people USB for the rest of their lives as some people think they are entitled to.


----------



## luutzu (20 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Medicare yes, because its a service available to everyone in return for taxes paid.
> 
> Welfare is a privilege paid to those who generally can't afford to pay taxes and so is being paid by someone elses taxes and therefore should be earned in another way; eg work for the dole.
> 
> We just can't afford to continually pay some people USB for the rest of their lives as some people think they are entitled to.




Welfare cheques can't be a privilege. Yes we should discourage dependence on it, definitely punish cheats and other abuses... but to keep people from going homeless, not have food on the table when times are tough... that's not why we pay taxes.

Just as we owe it to the ATO to pay our taxes, the gov't owe it to us to take care of those among us who needs it regardless of whether or not they have paid their fair share.

It's not only about doing what is right by our citizens, it's what prevents social collapse and prevented revolutions. 

If we think corporate welfare is necessary to prevent economic crisis etc., take away social welfare and you'll have bigger troubles brewing.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 October 2015)

Are these guys persecuted or simply economic "refugees" ?

Make up your own minds.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...-start-businesses-could-expand-report/6881928


----------



## pixel (24 October 2015)

A telling letter from Germany
While Snopes tags it "unproven", I have received numerous similar reports first-hand from German friends.



> *A Czech Female Physician in Munich, Germany sends a message to the world . *
> 
> Yesterday, at the hospital we had a meeting about how the situation here and at the other Munich hospitals is unsustainable. Clinics cannot handle emergencies, so they are starting to send everything to the hospitals.
> 
> ...


----------



## luutzu (24 October 2015)

pixel said:


> A telling letter from Germany
> While Snopes tags it "unproven", I have received numerous similar reports first-hand from German friends.




There's a lot of contradiction in that story. Assuming it's true anyway.

So the lady is from the Czech Republic working in Germany... better pay and condition right? Then the moment those "animals" who are sick and disease ridden comes to the hospital where she works, are rude and violent towards the staff... the moment that happen she wanted to leave the country for a better one, just the one she thought to return to ain't better so maybe she'd stay.

Anyway... I'm sure the "greeters" at the stations and every one else would not tolerate violent and otherwise criminal behaviour. Grieving for the lost of your child or stress and fear and anger from walking 3 months on foot etc. is no excuse either. So let the law enforcement agencies deal with such criminal behaviour... 

To use the behaviour of a few as representative of the rest just doesn't sound right. And she's supposed to be a physician... doctor, healer. I wouldn't trust any one who call another human being animals like that.


----------



## pixel (24 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> There's a lot of contradiction in that story. Assuming it's true anyway.




It is noble of you to jump to the true refugees' defense, luutzu; and like you, I feel sympathy for the women and children caught up in the oppression and murder in their homelands. However, my sympathy is taxed beyond its limit when I see able-bodied young men joining the dole queues, demanding not only compassion, but specific top-shelf goods, and going on the rampage if their demands aren't met.

Police statistics show a significant increase of petty theft, intimidation, and fighting in certain areas. Join the dots.

Sadly, it's not merely a small minority. There are daily fights between migrants from different ethnic backgrounds against each other, against aid workers, whom they accuse of being disrespectful or offering goods not deemed satisfactory. The stories go on and on, but the silence in the media is deafening...


----------



## luutzu (24 October 2015)

pixel said:


> It is noble of you to jump to the true refugees' defense, luutzu; and like you, I feel sympathy for the women and children caught up in the oppression and murder in their homelands. However, my sympathy is taxed beyond its limit when I see able-bodied young men joining the dole queues, demanding not only compassion, but specific top-shelf goods, and going on the rampage if their demands aren't met.
> 
> Police statistics show a significant increase of petty theft, intimidation, and fighting in certain areas. Join the dots.
> 
> Sadly, it's not merely a small minority. There are daily fights between migrants from different ethnic backgrounds against each other, against aid workers, whom they accuse of being disrespectful or offering goods not deemed satisfactory. The stories go on and on, but the silence in the media is deafening...




No one's defending thuggery or crimes. 

Just i'm not so sure about the statistics. 

And not defending abled-body young men seeking handouts... but what do we expect them to be doing when they first got to a foreign country? Not even sure if they're allowed to work until they're processed. They're refugees at the moment, seeking handouts... what are we expecting from them right now?

Can't speak for others but on days I don't sleep properly I tend to be cranky and have short fuses... maybe others are more gentle and having trekked all those months, maybe dreaming of open arms and warm shelter tey're not getting, some young ones might do what young idiots do in such states. Again, no excuse for crimes and theft and assault, but let the law deal with them.

---

Giving too much credit to the media.
Only one I saw was tripping over an elderly refugee fleeing, then kicking another kid... but most in the media, particularly the mainstream ones, they aren't exactly on the side of refugees.


----------



## drsmith (25 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Can't speak for others but on days I don't sleep properly I tend to be cranky and have short fuses....



The vast majority of people have days like that. How individuals respond to that is a test of character and it's a failure then the result is abuse towards others.

There's a growing inevitability that at some point, Europe is going to have to close its borders as a whole to this wave of disorganised migration.

http://news.yahoo.com/huge-inflow-m...NG9yBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM3BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--#


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> The vast majority of people have days like that. How individuals respond to that is a test of character and it's a failure then the result is abuse towards others.
> 
> There's a growing inevitability that at some point, Europe is going to have to close its borders as a whole to this wave of disorganised migration.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/huge-inflow-m...NG9yBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM3BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--#




When's the last time the vast majority of us got on a crowded leaky boat, cross the Agean seas then by foot here and bus there, a train now and then for some 3 months.. .carrying all we ever own in a couple bags, child and family and sleep where we can on the bench or the pavement... When's the last time you did that?

When did we become inspector Javert? I broke a window pane. You broke into a house! My sister's child was close to death, she was starving... and you'll starve again if you don't follow the letter of the law, you dirty filth!

He's the bad guy right?

btw, those miserable starving, thieving dirty plebs were French. Guess there's some Muslim and Arab blood in them to do things like that.


----------



## drsmith (25 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> When's the last time the vast majority of us got on a crowded leaky boat, cross the Agean seas then by foot here and bus there, a train now and then for some 3 months.. .carrying all we ever own in a couple bags, child and family and sleep where we can on the bench or the pavement... When's the last time you did that?



That justifies the behaviour as outlined in Pixel's post which in reference to your response, you've assumed to be true ?

No it doesn't.


----------



## sptrawler (25 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> As my mother said, I live off gov't handouts but my children will repay it. I haven't made much contribution to Australia, but raised kids so that they will   Four out of five ain't bad
> 
> I think perception is that refugees are burdensome, will remain so and keep draining our resources; whereas skilled migrants bring in skills and capital and won't rely or spend our resources at all.
> 
> Don't think that's true. Pot luck.




The problem with that is, the refugees are generally young able bodied men who should be building there own Countries.
This creates two problems, one the Country they go to has to support them untill their children hopefully become productive. Secondly the Country they left, has become poorer from the loss of an able bodied person, which leaves les people to improve it for the rest.

-----


luutzu said:


> I really think that welfare and medicare is a right, not some kind of state generosity and kindness as it's often made out to be.
> 
> Really tired of politicians living off of taxpayers largess, retiring on very generous "long service" pensions, being flown, housed, guarded, staffed while they work - or just fund raising... at taxpayers expense then turn around and say "we" can't be that generous, we can't spend this and that (as much as we'd like to, of course).
> 
> ...



Welfare and medicare aren't a right, or everyone would have them. They are result of a community deciding they would like it and are prepared to fund it. If they were a right you wouldn't have mass refugees chasing it, their countries would already have it.

I think this sentiment is really correct, the thing you are missing is it has to be paid for and not abused.

Once you start running welfare and medicare, to support an inundation of people, it breaks.

Simple maths.

Maybe you have a clever answer, that doesn't end up with a massive loss, that results with it being shut down.


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> That justifies the behaviour as outlined in Pixel's post which in reference to your response, you've assumed to be true ?
> 
> No it doesn't.




Have said before, can't justify crimes. What all these implies is that refugees all ought to be well behaved, perfect and calm... that show character as you say. 

Given the million or so that have reached Europe and unless all the media are in on it, there has not been that many that are violent.

---

To the bigger picture...

I know this man who has a son. The man was a former SVN pilot, the South lost, he became a refugee in Australia. His son was estranged, his marriage broke up way way back so he couldn't reunite etc.

So when he finally find out about the son he told him that his uncle, the guy's brother, is doing well and living nearby. The uncle has a factory and could hire him so drop by to introduce.

The kid drop by, told how his mum has passed and that they're related. The uncle and aunty was all nice and good, say they'll of course offer him a job.. family and all.

Couple weeks later the father call over, told the kid off... what's the matter with you, why do you steal? Stole what? Some valuable stuff from your uncle when you were over. There's no chance they could help you now, can't trust you while you are with them so how can they trust you once you're at their business?

The kid cries and said I've never stolen anything in my life. Why would I steal from them when I just drop by and to ask for a job from them?


Guess how that story end? 

No bloody help from the uncle that's how it ends. Can't blame the uncle can we? Try to help the kid, but he can't be trusted... steal the wife's valuable stuff right in front of her.

---

So how do you think we the people don't mind seeing Arabs and Muslims getting blown up? Or that the dead are presumed terrorsts unless someone, somehow, could prove otherwise?

How do we, having to cut spending on healthcare and other benefits; cut to schools for our own children etc. etc.... How do we find ways and make do with these cuts while not raising too much fuss about our gov't spending hundreds of millions a year on foreign soil dropping bombs and carrying out operations?

It costs something like $35,000 per hour to fly each of those Hornets; Costs at least half a million per Tomahawk missile... How many scholarships or schools or teachers or nurses could those buy us?

How to justify those spending and waste and killings? Security. Stability. Fight against evil. Democracy. Freedom. Liberty. Muslims bad! 

How did the Nazi managed to murder all those millions of Jews? Jews aren't the same as the good and great Aryan that's how, they're not human etc. etc. What do you do with those who aren't human and who stole from us, who will rape our women in the nights and during the day bankrupt us?  What to do? You listen to a Palestinian Mufti and murder them that's what you do.


I know we're all busy and don't have time for all these lies and official news releases... but if we don't want to be use like an idiot, may be worth putting some time and think about what we hear and read a bit.


----------



## sptrawler (25 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> When's the last time the vast majority of us got on a crowded leaky boat, cross the Agean seas then by foot here and bus there, a train now and then for some 3 months.. .carrying all we ever own in a couple bags, child and family and sleep where we can on the bench or the pavement... When's the last time you did that?
> 
> When did we become inspector Javert? I broke a window pane. You broke into a house! My sister's child was close to death, she was starving... and you'll starve again if you don't follow the letter of the law, you dirty filth!
> 
> ...




So who do you think fixes up these Countries, where all the able bodied people leave?

Why not just make the Middle East people move to China, all the African people move to America and Australia, and leave these terrible Countries empty.

Then what do you do, when China Australia and America collapse into the chaos, that the middle east and Africa were.

Move all the refugees from Australia, China and America to the Middle East and Africa away from conflict.

How the hell you fix a Country, by moving out all the able bodied people, may make sense to you but it is beyond me.

The Worlds population is increasing, everyone trying to move to Australia, U.K, Germany and Canada and go on welfare, isn't going to work.

Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (25 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> So how do you think we the people don't mind seeing Arabs and Muslims getting blown up? Or that the dead are presumed terrorsts unless someone, somehow, could prove otherwise?
> 
> How do we, having to cut spending on healthcare and other benefits; cut to schools for our own children etc. etc.... How do we find ways and make do with these cuts while not raising too much fuss about our gov't spending hundreds of millions a year on foreign soil dropping bombs and carrying out operations?
> 
> ...




We are 24 million people on a sparsely populated Island in the middle of nowhere, how long would we survive if we had no defenses?

Then you have to ask how long would your welfare and medicare last, if we were overrun?

Maybe for you that isn't an issue, but I really like my way of life.:1zhelp:

I understand your compassion, for the poor muslim people that are fleeing their homelands, but why don't they want to conform to our culture? Why try to repeat history? Rather than start over.

Me thinks, it is because many are not genuine.lol


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with that is, the refugees are generally young able bodied men who should be building there own Countries.
> This creates two problems, one the Country they go to has to support them untill their children hopefully become productive. Secondly the Country they left, has become poorer from the loss of an able bodied person, which leaves les people to improve it for the rest.




I think countries like Iraq and Syria are currently in the destruction stage. Construction will have to wait a while.

Refugees who leave will benefit their country back home through the money they'll earn and send back. The ones leaving Syria and other ME countries also help in that if they stay they'll either join ISIS or everyone else and prolong the war. 

Taking in refugees help the adopted country's economy. Especially the young working age ones.
Cheap labour, a lot of motivation to work and take the opportunity... not only for themselves but also for their family back home.

You will of course get a percentage of criminal acts those wanting quick bucks... overtime those will be locked up, deported or else grow out of it after some time behind bars.

The refugees that will costs most will be families with small children. But in general those children carry a burden and "encouraged" to study hard and make something of their life. In such cases, gov't will pay first but often reap much benefit in a decade or two.



-----


sptrawler said:


> Welfare and medicare aren't a right, or everyone would have them. They are result of a community deciding they would like it and are prepared to fund it. If they were a right you wouldn't have mass refugees chasing it, their countries would already have it.
> 
> I think this sentiment is really correct, the thing you are missing is it has to be paid for and not abused.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure where we get this idea that refugees flee to the West for welfare benefits. 
In a decade's time when benefits are no more, the 100 year crusade/jihad will still produce refugees and those refugees will want to flee to preferably richer countries with or without welfare payment. Why? Rich and powerful countries don't get liberated by other dogooders.

---

We all got benefits at some stage without having ever paid for it; once we work, we pay taxes and may never use much of it. That's how the system keep working - I scratch your back, you scratch mine...


----------



## luutzu (25 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> We are 24 million people on a sparsely populated Island in the middle of nowhere, how long would we survive if we had no defenses?
> 
> Then you have to ask how long would your welfare and medicare last, if we were overrun?
> 
> ...




Does the fights in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria... did they really contribute to our security? I've heard from experts that it might actually increase the likelihood of terrorist attack on our homeland.

That and China is getting bolder. Why? Not a coincident that they're building bases in disputed corals because the US and its allies got their hands somewhat tied in the ME and with Russia.

As Sun Tzu said, war is a sharp instrument; frequent use will blunt its effectiveness. 
When armies are sent to fight far away, the treasury will be drained and taxation will be high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up [something like that].


----------



## sptrawler (25 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> I think countries like Iraq and Syria are currently in the destruction stage. Construction will have to wait a while.
> 
> Refugees who leave will benefit their country back home through the money they'll earn and send back. The ones leaving Syria and other ME countries also help in that if they stay they'll either join ISIS or everyone else and prolong the war.
> 
> ...




The idea comes from the fact, that most if not all of the current refugee influx to Europe, are bypassing Countries to reach Countries with welfare systems.

It isn't a fantasy, it is a fact, also why are they are having so much trouble with the refugees at the French end of the chunnel.

I understand your compassion for their plight, however maybe your sincerity and honesty, isn't the norm for the current tidal wave of refugees.
Again just my opinion.

Or maybe you're very high up in the Muslim hierarchy and I'm not being dissrespectfull, everyone has their right to their own beliefs.

However, our demographic and topographic size, makes it extremely sensitive to population and workforce participation, for want of a better word.


----------



## sptrawler (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Does the fights in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria... did they really contribute to our security? I've heard from experts that it might actually increase the likelihood of terrorist attack on our homeland.
> .




Well the the fights in those countries, are trying to stop the the oppression that all these refugees are supposedly fleeing from, or is it just another scam.


----------



## sptrawler (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> As Sun Tzu said, war is a sharp instrument; frequent use will blunt its effectiveness.
> When armies are sent to fight far away, the treasury will be drained and taxation will be high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up [something like that].




Also the same could be said, for passive takeover of a welfare state.

Just keep adding to the welfare burden, the treasury will be drained and taxation high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up.

There we go back to the future.


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> The idea comes from the fact, that most if not all of the current refugee influx to Europe, are bypassing Countries to reach Countries with welfare systems.
> 
> It isn't a fantasy, it is a fact, also why are they are having so much trouble with the refugees at the French end of the chunnel.
> 
> ...




Well if they bypassed the poorer countries to get to the rich ones, doesn't that proved they're good at economics? 

Seriously though, I've heard that many neighbouring countries are full and the camps cannot take anymore. That's why since Afghanistan some 14 years ago and all the Arab springs and African civil wars... that we now here about refugees... it's spilling over because too many millions are displaced by too many wars.

You know I'm not a Muslim right? Don't have any friend who are either. Know a few, but not friend friend.


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Well the the fights in those countries, are trying to stop the the oppression that all these refugees are supposedly fleeing from, or is it just another scam.




It's a scam alright.


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Also the same could be said, for passive takeover of a welfare state.
> 
> Just keep adding to the welfare burden, the treasury will be drained and taxation high. When taxation is high the people will be exhausted and everywhere rebellion and warlords will rise up.
> 
> There we go back to the future.




We're stuffed twice then aren't we. 

But what if one of those refugees were Steve Jobs? He was a Syrian. Make back all the money for all the refugees with that one.

Wait.. unless that steve takes the place of a Stevie Joe


----------



## sptrawler (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> We're stuffed twice then aren't we.
> 
> But what if one of those refugees were Steve Jobs? He was a Syrian. Make back all the money for all the refugees with that one.
> 
> Wait.. unless that steve takes the place of a Stevie Joe




Well if Steve Jobs had stayed in Syria ,and Syria had a progressive Government, Syria would be richer.

Therein lies the problem, Syria should be a place Steve Jobs wants to stay in, thus making Syria a nicer place for Syrians.

If you move every Syrian out of Syria, does that fix the problem? or move the problem?

So is the problem Syria or Syrians?

That leads to the question, if you move people, do you solve the problem? No way hozay, you just  spread the problem.


----------



## poverty (26 October 2015)

The stakes are high!


http://www.smh.com.au/world/sloveni...-down-the-european-union-20151025-gki5qw.html

"If we don't find a solution today, if we don't do everything we can today, then it is the end of the European Union as such," Mr Cerar said.

"If we don't deliver concrete action, I believe Europe will start falling apart."


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

poverty said:


> The stakes are high!
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/sloveni...-down-the-european-union-20151025-gki5qw.html
> ...




Wow man. These refugees barely got into Europe and already they're blamed for its collapse.

Europe has been screwed around by the neo-con and their privatisation since Thatcher; Since the GFC, Austerity was put in place where public service, pensions, social security are cuts; gov't investment and spending cuts... these deepen the recession, causes high unemployment, which leads to further cuts and greater privatisation of state assets... which probably got more "efficient" by firing a bunch of people and jack up prices.

But of course it's those refugees that will do it.

Costs Australia $700,000,000 AUD alone to absorb 12,000 refugees did you know?


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

sptrawler said:


> Well if Steve Jobs had stayed in Syria ,and Syria had a progressive Government, Syria would be richer.
> 
> Therein lies the problem, Syria should be a place Steve Jobs wants to stay in, thus making Syria a nicer place for Syrians.
> 
> ...




Steve Jobs would be selling kebabs or selling arms or join Assad regime or be blown to bits if he had stayed in Syria.

Instead his father migrated to the USA, knock up his mother, abandon them; Steve got adopted by American parents, sent to uni and with those opportunities he exploited his friends, got daddy issues driving him to be a bigger a hole that created Apple, made Pixar possible and along the way create hundreds of billions in wealth for shareholders and taxpayers.

It's the time and the opportunity that makes the person


----------



## poverty (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Wow man. These refugees barely got into Europe and already they're blamed for its collapse.
> 
> Europe has been screwed around by the neo-con and their privatisation since Thatcher; Since the GFC, Austerity was put in place where public service, pensions, social security are cuts; gov't investment and spending cuts... these deepen the recession, causes high unemployment, which leads to further cuts and greater privatisation of state assets... which probably got more "efficient" by firing a bunch of people and jack up prices.
> 
> ...




Mate I'm not sure if you've been following the news but Europe is experiencing an unprecedented movement of people from the Middle East flowing in through its borders, with no signs of it slowing down.  The Slovenians are correct, such a situation is not sustainable and unless something is done about it Europe will no longer exist as it does now, it will be one big, broken, financially ruined, cesspit of a refugee camp.


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

*Exclusive: UK nuclear deterrent to cost $256 billion, far more than expected*


> The overall cost of replacing and maintaining Britain's nuclear deterrent will reach 167 billion pounds ($256 billion), much more than expected, according to a lawmaker's and Reuters' calculations based on official figures.
> 
> The Scottish Nationalist Party, which wants Britain's Scotland-based nuclear-armed Trident submarines scrapped, called the sum "unthinkable and indefensible" at a time when deep cuts under the government's "austerity" policies mean "thousands of people across the UK are struggling to afford basics like food".




http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/25/us-britain-defence-trident-exclusive-idUSKCN0SJ0EP20151025

----

I thought having a few "conventional" nukes would be enough to deter pretty much any state that want to not have any of its cities flatten. Guess I'm wrong.

Heard from Chomsky how the arms dealers work (those military arms of Boeing and the likes)... So those guys go and sell "old" technology and arms to the second and third world, then they come back to the US and the first world and say... look, the world is more dangerous and your current arsenal no longer provide superiority of many factors anymore.

Better cough up a few hundred billions a year so we'd build more intelligent weapons for national defense against those meanies we just armed. 

You really can't make these stuff up.


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

poverty said:


> Mate I'm not sure if you've been following the news but Europe is experiencing an unprecedented movement of people from the Middle East flowing in through its borders, with no signs of it slowing down.  The Slovenians are correct, such a situation is not sustainable and unless something is done about it Europe will no longer exist as it does now, it will be one big, broken, financially ruined, cesspit of a refugee camp.




You'd feel right at home then poverty.

Anyway... have a feeling I'd need to start repeating what have been said.


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Have said before, can't justify crimes. What all these implies is that refugees all ought to be well behaved, perfect and calm... that show character as you say.
> 
> Given the million or so that have reached Europe and unless all the media are in on it, there has not been that many that are violent.



You say one thing and then attempt to justify the opposite.

Again, what you said before,



luutzu said:


> *No one's defending thuggery or crimes.*
> 
> Just i'm not so sure about the statistics.
> 
> ...




My bolds.


----------



## dutchie (26 October 2015)

Stupid Europe     (you can take that as a comment)


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> You say one thing and then attempt to justify the opposite.
> 
> Again, what you said before,
> 
> ...




Nope.

Was trying to explain that it might be understandable how and why refugees might not be on their best behaviour. Maybe a bit grumpy, maybe take it out and losing it on the wrong people.

Understandable, but not excusing it or find it excusable when they commit crimes and assault anyone.
If they or anyone commit crimes or assault people, law enforcement should deal with it and lock them up or send them back etc.

Some of us seem to suggest that all refugees are criminals, are violent, are ingrates, are here to steal jobs and take welfare payment... kicking the elderly citizens out of their home etc. etc. and the media love the refugees so much they're all silent on these.

Good thing we got those newsletter from patriots going though.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Nope.
> 
> Was trying to explain that it might be understandable how and why refugees might not be on their best behaviour. Maybe a bit grumpy, maybe take it out and losing it on the wrong people.
> 
> ...




If you barged your way into someones house when someone was chasing you wouldn't you want to be very respectful to your hosts, out of courtesy not to mention that they may take exception to your behaviour and throw you out ?


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> If you barged your way into someones house when someone was chasing you wouldn't you want to be very respectful to your hosts, out of courtesy not to mention that they may take exception to your behaviour and throw you out ?




It seems that the majority of the refugees are respectful and thankful.
Unless the media is in a big conspiracy, I haven't heard much about violence from them.

Yea they break migration laws, a few safety regulations and liters too. Probably take nature's call in the bushes and didn't wash their hands after as well.


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> It seems that the majority of the refugees are respectful and thankful.
> *Unless the media is in a big conspiracy, I haven't heard much about violence from them.*



The basis of your argument was on assuming it's true.

My bolds.


----------



## noco (26 October 2015)

I would say asylum seekers have got the RED light in some countries and it does not refer to the RED light area in Amsterdam and London. 

*The first countries to ban Islam: See how the world is acting fast on
the threat posed by Islam and its barbaric Sharia Law.



Japan has always refused Muslims to live permanent in their country
and cannot own any real estate or any type of business, and have
banned any worship of Islam. Any Muslim tourist caught spreading the
word of Islam will be deported immediately, including all family
members.



Cuba rejects plans for first mosque.



The African nation of Angola and several other nations have officially
banned Islam.



Record number of Muslims, (over 2,000)  deported from Norway as a way
of fighting crime. Since these Muslim criminals have been deported,
crime has dropped by a staggering 72%. Prison Officials are reporting
that nearly half of their jail cells are now vacant, Courtrooms nearly
empty, Police now free to attend to other matters, mainly traffic
offences to keep their roads and highways safe and assisting the
public in as many ways as they can.

In Germany alone in the last year there were 81 violent attacks
targeting mosques.



Austrian police arrested 13 men targeting suspected jihad recruiters.



A Chinese court sends 22 Muslim Imams to jail  for 16 to 20 years for
spreading Islam hatred.   and have executed eighteen Jihadists; China
campaigns against Separatism (disallowing  islamists to have their own
separate state). Muslim prayers banned in government buildings and
schools in Xinjiang (Western China). Hundreds of Muslim families
prepared to leave China for their own safety and return back to their
own Middle Eastern countries.



Muslim refugees beginning to realize that they are not welcome in
Christian countries because of their violent ways and the continuing
wars in



Syria and Iraq whipped up by the hideous ISIS who are murdering young
children and using mothers and daughters as sex slaves.



British Home Secretary prepares to introduce 'Anti-social Behavior
Order' for extremists and strip dual nationals of their Citizenship.



Deportation laws also being prepared.



The Czech Republic blatantly refuses Islam in their country, regarding
it as evil.



Alabama - A new controversial amendment that will ban the recognition
of "foreign laws which would include sharia law".



The Polish Defence League issues a warning to Muslims. 16 States Have
All Introduced  Legislation to Ban Shariah Law.



Many Muslims in Northern Ireland have announced plans to leave the
Country to avoid anti-Islamic violence by Irish locals. The
announcement comes after an attack on groups of Muslims in the city of
Belfast, Groups of Irish locals went berserk and bashed teenage Muslim
gangs who were referring to young Irish girls as sluts and should be
all gang raped, according to Islam and ''Sharia Law''. Even hospital
staff were reluctant to treat the battered Muslim patients, the
majority were given the Band-Aid treatment and sent home with staff
muttering ''Good Riddance''.



North Carolina bans Islamic "Sharia Law" in the State, regarding it
now as a criminal offence.



Dutch MP's call for removal of all mosques in the Netherlands. One
Member of the Dutch Parliament said: "We want to clean Netherlands of
Islam".   Dutch MP Machiel De Graaf spoke on behalf of the Party for
Freedom when he said, "All mosques in the Netherlands should be shut
down. Without Islam, the Netherlands would be a wonderful safe country
to live in, as it was before the arrival of Muslim refugees''.

*


----------



## Tisme (26 October 2015)

poverty said:


> The stakes are high!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bloody unions ... we need to send Noco and Abbott over there to sought them out.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Bloody unions ... we need to send Noco and Abbott over there to sought them out.




The Building and Construction Commission may be of use to them too.


----------



## Tisme (26 October 2015)

Problem solved ....at last:

http://www.australianlibertyalliance.org.au/


----------



## noco (26 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Bloody unions ... we need to send Noco and Abbott over there to sought them out.




Why Abbott?......he has gooooone and I can't do it by myself....Suggest you contact Sir Rumpole or the pied piper....He knows how to get rid of the rats.


----------



## noco (26 October 2015)

Chris Kenny exposes the lies told about the Nauru detention center and the woman who was allegedly raped.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...581753809?sv=af027c93ee9259a91e8be429f0d2e536

*Nauru has become a vortex of political and personal agendas conspiring to mask the truth.

Even simple facts and obvious realities can be difficult to discern or expose. Happiness is disguised, secrets are kept, identities are hidden, allegations are made and politics are played.

And if the reality of Nauru is difficult to discern from the island itself, the misconceptions and distortions from Australia are extreme.

The Nauruan government, dismayed by inaccurate and tendentious reporting, has kept overseas journalists out for years. Maligned with labels such as “prison island” “guano heap” or “rape culture”, Nauru’s defensiveness might be understandable. But secrecy only makes the situation worse.*

Please more.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-moral-posturing/story-fn8qlm5e-1227581805565


----------



## drsmith (26 October 2015)

The people smugglers are still trying,



> ELEVEN asylum seekers have reportedly fled Indonesian immigration detention, where they were held after a failed bid to sail to Australia.
> 
> THE 11 Bangladeshi men were among a group of 18 people, also from Pakistan and India, found floating off Cianjur, West Java, on September 23.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...e-java-detention/story-fn3dxix6-1227583116110


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> The basis of your argument was on assuming it's true.
> 
> My bolds.




Basis of my argument is war has its consequences, sometimes not always to the bad guys or those standing near them. That war tend to create people who saw one too many explosions then figured it's impossible to not get blown to bits if they'd stay longer and maybe it's time to get as far away as possible.

Not sure why you can't correlate war with refugee crisis.

If they're economic migrants propelled by greed and duped by people smugglers to seek the promised land and retire on its welfare payment... If that's the case wouldn't you have seen them fleeing or walking or drowning their way to the UK and Germany way back years ago when the benefits were more generous, when Europe isn't in a recession with high unemployment and rising "patriotism"?

But nope... they wait for the wars, the full refugee camps in neighbouring countries, wait for all the destruction at home and economic decline in Europe to then go for it.


----------



## dutchie (27 October 2015)

The integration of multiculturalism at its best.


*Muslim children walk out when national anthem is sung*


http://www.news.com.au/national/vic...l-anthem-is-sung/story-fnii5sms-1227582881588


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> The integration of multiculturalism at its best.
> 
> 
> *Muslim children walk out when national anthem is sung*






> People need to remember that these Muslim children are not against the Australian national anthem but are *not allowed* to be deemed to be celebrating




Says it all really ... govt supporting predators


----------



## qldfrog (27 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> If they're economic migrants propelled by greed and duped by people smugglers to seek the promised land and retire on its welfare payment... If that's the case wouldn't you have seen them fleeing or walking or drowning their way to the UK and Germany way back years ago when the benefits were more generous, when Europe isn't in a recession with high unemployment and rising "patriotism"?



They were but were unable to cross by government which after their collapse are not doing this anymore.
Lybia, Syria, Irak, etc
google a bit, look at the deal EU had with  Lybia at the time
10 years ago, a Pakistanese would not have been able to cross Syria or a congolese  take a boat from Libya.
War in the ME is the cause not by creating the demand but by allowing migration to be possible by land/sea.

The europeans with their action in the so called Arab Spring got what they deserve: blindly following the US whose interests are clear, but I am sure Luutzu, you think the Arab spring was a marvelous event of people newly found freedom helped by the American and th CIA/UK elite troops on the ground against Kadhafi...
PS: which horrible war caused by the West is making Pakistan and Bangladesh citizens flee for their life?


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> PS: which horrible war caused by the West is making Pakistan and Bangladesh citizens flee for their life?




I'm guessing there are a lot of people getting out before their religion plays out it barbarian promises. They won't change their religion though because that might jeopardise their council house, free phone and weekly payments.


 Of course the west is to blame because it destabilised/deposed the ruthless ruling families in those countries.


----------



## noco (27 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Says it all really ... govt supporting predators




If we Australians ddi that in a Muslim country we would probably have out throats slit, stone to death or shot.


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> They were but were unable to cross by government which after their collapse are not doing this anymore.
> Lybia, Syria, Irak, etc
> google a bit, look at the deal EU had with  Lybia at the time
> 10 years ago, a Pakistanese would not have been able to cross Syria or a congolese  take a boat from Libya.
> ...




Yea war breaks down the usual border patrols. But in poor countries like Libya, not too hard to know a guy who know a guy.

With Libya... heard from this British journalist and ME expert (that's quite a rare combo, can't recall his name at the moment) giving a lecture where he said there's no sectarian Sunni/Shiite between the groups so the Pentagon and Canberra [jk, haha] call it West against East Libya.

Gadafi was as nice as dictators are right? But he wasn't overthrown because we believe in freedom and democracy and support the Arab Spring... Same with Eqypt and its short-lived spring. The Israelis weren't happy at all with the new Muslim-brotherhood backed dictator - they and the US were fine with the old what's his name that pumped raw sewage into the tunnels bordering Gaza to stop smugglings. 

But since the people of Egypt don't like the old dictator, the new one then became too rough and a newer one took his place and got friendlier with Israel and the US   Got to know who has the stick and the carrot man.

I haven't look into the whole Arab Spring thing but no, the US/UK didn't help it along but the dictators quash it. No Power would ever want people power - it's cheaper and easier to buy off a dictator then it is en entire population. How many palaces and jets and armed guards and full course banquet can a guy have? When he has it, how could he see there's a problem with poverty or people suffering? Can't imagine it'd be that bad.


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2015)

noco said:


> If we Australians ddi that in a Muslim country we would probably have out throats slit, stone to death or shot.




So... you want us to get close to that state, but not that close right?


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2015)

noco said:


> If we Australians ddi that in a Muslim country we would probably have out throats slit, stone to death or shot.




Well of course these are probably Australian children we are talking about  and 

1.) I think there are still expat secular schools for the English speaking
2.) Australians a unlikely to be so impolite
3.) Australians living there are likely Muslim anyway
4.) I don't think they play the Australian National Anthem in Muslim country schools to walk out on.


----------



## drsmith (28 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Basis of my argument is war has its consequences, sometimes not always to the bad guys or those standing near them. That war tend to create people who saw one too many explosions then figured it's impossible to not get blown to bits if they'd stay longer and maybe it's time to get as far away as possible.
> 
> Not sure why you can't correlate war with refugee crisis.
> 
> ...



Now you want to argue push factors. 

That was the Rudd government's first line of defence when the boats started again after it softened the Howard government's policies.

A return to the stronger border protection policies post Labor demonstrates otherwise.


----------



## luutzu (28 October 2015)

drsmith said:


> Now you want to argue push factors.
> 
> That was the Rudd government's first line of defence when the boats started again after it softened the Howard government's policies.
> 
> A return to the stronger border protection policies post Labor demonstrates otherwise.




Of course it works. That's why former Captain Abbott is in London spreading the Gospel, well, not literally the Bible Gospel to love thy neighbour.. have to ignore that part of the Bible, but the Gospel according to Tony... to be tough, to ignore your conscience and your God's teachings or else... else Europe will be forever change and change is never good.

Always bad. Especially when it involves Muslims and Islam whose religion are obviously evil and bad while Christians are good, but ignore the good in it to keep it good.

Ah well, I guess all the other billions of poor people around the world have never heard of the riches of Western nations and its welfare. Dam! Bill Gates and his Foundation plans to give the poor mobile devices so they can read and learn about these river of gold.


----------



## sinner (11 November 2015)

Ex SERCO employee breaks his NDA

https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/...tmas_island_as/?ref=share&ref_source=facebook


----------



## overhang (11 November 2015)

sinner said:


> Ex SERCO employee breaks his NDA
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/...tmas_island_as/?ref=share&ref_source=facebook




This is well worth a read.

A few highlights imo



> In your opinion how many arrivals are genuine refugees and how many are economic migrants?
> About 50/50 if i was feeling generous. DIAC at one point were just printing visas and handing them out like lollies because the place was so overcrowded they just needed to get them out, there was a statistic floating around when i quit that said something along the lines of 90% of arrivals were found to be genuine refugees. This is wrong because they weren't "found" they were just "gotten rid of" because it was hemorrhaging money but also technically correct, because well, who's going to argue with DIAC?
> 
> There was a huge swell of Iranians when i was there, i think they eventually made up like 56% of the detention population at one point. The majority were well off, knew exactly what to expect when they got here, to the effect of stepping off the boat and asking "so when can i see my case officer" and without exception, destroying ALL their documentation so nobody could find out who they really were. I'm not saying that all the Iranians were like this, but it doesn't help me believe you when i open your case and theres 350,000 in US bills and all your clothes are Armani, your religious sect is the majority in Iran and you're claiming to be persecuted? C'mon.






> What's the worst thing that happened there?
> 
> What is the one thing you wish the general public knew?
> 
> ...






> How do you feel about accepting genuine refugees amongst "illegal Maritime Arrivals."
> 
> Should they all be sent home?
> 
> I feel great about accepting genuine refugees, you could usually tell who they were in a short amount of time. They were no trouble, they didn't cause a scene, they were respectful and really wanted to help out and engage in society. Unfortunately, in my experience it was about a 50/50 split between them and the pisstakers. During the first riot on CI, all the detainees who were (in my opinion and the opinion of most other people working there) genuine refugees all sat out the violence with the exception of a very small few. I asked them about it later and they told me that they didn't want the people who were assaulting guards and burning buildings to be representative of their claim to assylum. Most the ringleaders and rioters in both the riots i attended were rich, Iranian, pisstaking economic migrants. Oddly enough they were hated by the actual refugees because at the time they were gumming up the system so bad it was causing legitimate refugees to be stuck in the centers for far longer than necessary.




Too much to list so I encourage people to have a read


----------



## sinner (11 November 2015)

overhang said:


> This is well worth a read.
> 
> A few highlights imo
> 
> Too much to list so I encourage people to have a read




Interesting that you jumped straight to the bit that make it seem like a Murdoch press article and gloss the rest 

I'll just leave the very *topmost post* here...



> I think theres huge misconceptions on both sides about this issue.
> 
> The right would have you believe they're all dole bludging terrorists who are here to have as many babies as they can and muslimatically take over the country. The left would have you believe they're all innocent little angels who have never hurt a fly and are all escaping the evil sunni/shia warlords who are trying to decapitate them for being gay and drinking whisky.
> 
> ...






> It really opened my eyes to the fact that it was a really diverse group and that no side of the political debate really had any clue as to what they were talking about. Personally, my grandparents were refugees to Australia after the second world war themselves so I was never really anti-immigration going into the job, but i was still a little surprised at how... normal they were as a cross section of the community, there were some real scumbags, but there were some real nice people too, and all the shades of grey in-between.




Says it all and then some.


----------



## overhang (11 November 2015)

sinner said:


> Interesting that you jumped straight to the bit that make it seem like a Murdoch press article and gloss the rest
> 
> I'll just leave the very *topmost post* here...
> 
> ...




I did actually read it all Sinner and found that these were the big things that caught my eye as it surprised me to see him saying that it is a common practice for economic migrants to rip up the their documents and that they know how to game the system.  My position has been that this is just hyperbole but this Q&A makes me question that.

It's also quite concerning to see him describe the conditions that workers are subjected to and the violent acts against them which isn't how I would have thought it would have been.  It is worth noting though that he does speculate that as Manus uses locals as guards that his would be reversed and they may well abuse the detainees.


----------



## Tisme (16 November 2015)

Interesting Timeline:



> 18 October 2001
> A small, unnamed 19.5 X 4 metre wooden fishing boat that would later be dubbed SIEVX (Suspected Illegal Entry Vessel X) departs Canti, a fishing village near South Lampung, with approximately 421 passengers. This dilapidated, unseaworthy boat would have been overcrowded with 150 aboard, let alone 400. (*Later, survivors would report that many were forced aboard at gunpoint by Indonesian police who supervised the loading.*)





http://sievx.com/chronology/


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## noco (17 November 2015)

To allow another 12,000 Muslims into our country will be the biggest mistake in the Australian history......The LUG Party allowed in 50,000 and look where that has ended up...There will be a mixtures of Sunnis and Shiites who hate each others gutz and will no doubt start a war among themselves here in Aus..

Even if 1 in 1000 who arrive are terrorist then that  is 12 too many who are apt to cause havoc as in Paris.

Perhaps if they are segregated and sent to different parts of Australia, there may be some control but U can bet your boots they will find their way into Western Sydney eventually.

Ban the Burka and ban Muslim schools.....those 12,000 refugees should be on conditional terms.....Learn English and ban the Koran......Join in our way of life or go back to where you came from....We are opening our hearts to these people and you are expected to do the right thing. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...of-terror-attack/story-fnihsrf2-1227610973424

DES HOUGHTON SAYS

DISTURBING reports in Britain say 4000 ISIS fighters have already been smuggled into Europe as fake refugees. Two of the merchants of death in the Paris massacre arrived as refugees.

Forgive me if it sounds intolerant, but Australians must ask: How many times have we rolled out the welcome mat for budding terrorists?

Defence chiefs in Europe are painting a gloomy picture of Muslim troubles ahead. They admit it was wrong to let thousands of refugees flood borders.

And they question whether Sunni Muslims worldwide consider IS a corruption of Islam or view the butchery as the new orthodoxy.

Play
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Up Next

Karl Stefanovic Paris panic
http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/...=2&width=650&api_key=kq7wnrk4eun47vz9c5xuj3mc

*In some Muslim hearts the cowardly terrorists are bringing forward the day of Muslim domination. Secretly they may look forward to that.

The Paris outrage is an attack on Western civilisation. Our culture is at risk.

So you can forgive me if you sense I am a little tired of the media opinionistas on the ABC and in print tripping over themselves to say how we must be kind to Muslims.

The painful truth is that the world is not joined in mourning the carnage in Paris. Many are celebrating it.*


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## Tisme (17 November 2015)

noco said:


> To allow another 12,000 Muslims into our country will be the biggest mistake in the Australian history......The LUG Party allowed in 50,000 and look where that has ended up...There will be a mixtures of Sunnis and Shiites who hate each others gutz and will no doubt start a war among themselves here in Aus..
> 
> Even if 1 in 1000 who arrive are terrorist then that  is 12 too many who are apt to cause havoc as in Paris.




I have to ask Noco: just how many Muslims do you think have come into our country since the LNP took charge? Which govt just opened the doors to another 12k on top of the quota? The current quota is what under this govt?

Can you also explain who was in govt when the Muslim population here grew to 476,000 by 2011? Whitlam perhaps?


----------



## noco (17 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> I have to ask Noco: just how many Muslims do you think have come into our country since the LNP took charge? Which govt just opened the doors to another 12k on top of the quota? The current quota is what under this govt?
> 
> Can you also explain who was in govt when the Muslim population here grew to 476,000 by 2011? Whitlam perhaps?




I am well aware of what the LNP is allowing and I am firmly against it....The LNP are making a grave mistake.

The whole crux of this Islamic movement infiltrating into the Western World is to not only create havoc and fear from terrorism but to weaken the Western World's economy...It is becoming an enormous burden even on Australia and this is exactly what Islam wants and are happy to see happening. 

Judith Sloan says it all.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ise-of-terrorism/story-fnbkvnk7-1227611297522

*I was the kind of kid who always finished her homework early. Needless to say, I had typed the last word of my column for this week with plenty of time to spare.

The trouble is I’m not sure anyone is really in the mood to read more about tax reform options for Australia at the moment.

This got me thinking about the economic implications of the terrorist attacks in Paris. Will there be a bit of a blip — tourist numbers heading to Paris may fall, for example — or does terrorism have a noticeable effect on the economic performance of countries?

There are several ways of thinking about this topic. The first is to consider the impact on what John Maynard Keynes called “animal spirits”. There is no doubt a terrorism attack, such as the one in Paris, induces a general sense of unease among people and increases *uncertainty.

In the short term, there is likely to be a negative economic effect as more people refrain from making big economic decisions — in *relation to investment, setting up businesses, completing major transactions and the like. The impact on the equity market is also likely to be negative, at least for some time.

If the 9/11 incident is any guide, however, this immediate impact may be short-lived. Mind you, in that instance, arguably the policy reaction of central banks in part set up the conditions that led to the global financial crisis seven or so years later.

(Excessively low interest rates, liquidity sloshing around and the mispricing of risk are not good bedfellows.)

The greater concern is the medium-term economic impact of terrorism. When President Francois Hollande declares his country will wage war against terrorism, the consequence will be more resources devoted to national defence and security. (This is assuming Hollande means what he says.)

Indeed, most Western countries already have committed additional resources to funding intelligence agencies, building up and deploying police and defence capabilities, and insisting on a network of internal security arrangements (at airports, sports stadiums and the like).

Governments also have had to step in to provide or subsidise *terrorism insurance.*


----------



## Tisme (17 November 2015)

noco said:


> I am well aware of what the LNP is allowing and I am firmly against it....The LNP are making a grave mistake.
> 
> /B]




Well then, perhaps a little less "LUG" acronyms and more bi partisan dismay at the the absence of Captains Courageous in the wheel house of HMAS Migration. 

And talking of Captains Courageous, we need a troupe of "Long Jacks" to whip (figuratively) these Muslim youth and their older Muslim manchild companions into responsible citizens, instead of lazy minded, indolent sociopaths.


----------



## drsmith (20 November 2015)

A test for the Turnbull government,



> There are reports an asylum seeker boat has reached Christmas Island.
> 
> SBS are reporting that the boat made it near Flying Fish Cove before being intercepted by the Australian Navy.Locals told SBS it is the first time a boat has been that close since January 2013.
> 
> ...




It would be foolish to do anything other than tow/return those on board back to their origin.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-...lum-seeker-boat-reaches-christmas-island.html


----------



## drsmith (20 November 2015)

More on the above,



> The boat made it within 200m of Flying Fish Cove before it was boarded by Australian officials, sources on the island told Guardian Australia.
> 
> It is unclear whether the boat was intercepted by Australian navy or Border Force staff.
> 
> Those on board were given life jackets. The boat was moved further away from the island and covered in a tarpaulin so the arrivals cannot be counted or identified.




http://www.theguardian.com/australi...ker-boat-reported-approached-christmas-island



> Several Christmas Island residents said they spotted the wooden boat, carrying about eight people, in Flying Fish Cove at about 6:00am local time.
> 
> They said it was intercepted by the Navy a short time later and escorted to Smiths Point, where the group was then offloaded onto another Navy ship.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-...d-near-christmas-island-residents-say/6957998

Coincidently (ABC radio news), Indonesia have suggested one of their islands for a offshore processing centre on the basis that Australia pays to operate it. This would be a bad move in my view with the biggest reason being that the people smuggling trade in Indonesia has be assisted by official corruption.


----------



## drsmith (20 November 2015)

Labor as usual is keen for the shipping report so the money can change hands within the people smuggling networks,



> Labor's immigration spokesman Richard Marles said Mr Dutton must immediately detail the events surrounding the boat's arrival, including what refugee assessment process is being undertaken and whether Australia is "complying with its international obligations in respect of refugees".
> 
> "It is unacceptable for this Liberal government to refuse to answer questions about this reported vessel and instead continue to peddle the phrase 'operational matters'  - this is nothing more than a tired, lazy slogan for suppressing facts from the Australian community," Mr Marles said in a statement.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...island-local-sources-say-20151120-gl3q93.html


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## Tisme (20 November 2015)

Why are boats arriving again .... is Labor in power again  .... why wasn't I told!!!


----------



## noco (20 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Why are boats arriving again .... is Labor in power again  .... why wasn't I told!!!




BOATS???? or a BOAT with 8 people on board....it was probably so small it slipped under the radar.

No Tisme...you must keep up with times....Labor is not in power again and may not be for some years to come.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

On a lighter note

http://www.smh.com.au/national/phuc...443502&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=NDU3Mjg1Ng

Would this be you luu ?


----------



## drsmith (21 November 2015)

noco said:


> BOATS???? or a BOAT with 8 people on board....it was probably so small it slipped under the radar.
> 
> No Tisme...you must keep up with times....Labor is not in power again and may not be for some years to come.



Up to 1000 boat arrivals per week under the previous Labor administration. For some, that and more is what passes the test on the prevention index. 

I'd like to see Indonesia's response if Labor was in office and publically announced the interception of each boat (as they did in office) and further advising of each turn back under their current policy platform.

Actually, I wouldn't. We all know that Labor has only adopted turn backs as a policy option for nothing more than political expediency. Richard Marles's comments from yesterday is proof of that. As for SHY's comments and the Greens in general, they still don't mind the accidents and tragedies along the way to their policy ideal.


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> On a lighter note
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/phuc...443502&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=NDU3Mjg1Ng
> 
> Would this be you luu ?




na Phuc Dat, that's not me 

It get funnier if you know the meaning of the words. Though it could be a fake since Bich is not a surname, it's often a first name...

Bich = Pure, Precious
Phuc = Blessed; Blessing; Luck
Dat = Achieved; Attained; Got.

So Bich Phuc Dat = Bich Got Blessed 


Mine is of course Toilet. Add the Surname and they go together


----------



## drsmith (23 November 2015)

The OSB monthly update for October has been published and it's been another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-october-3


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## SirRumpole (23 November 2015)

drsmith said:


> The OSB monthly update for October has been published and it's been another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-october-3




Sorry, I can't comment on off water matters.


----------



## trainspotter (25 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> On a lighter note
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/phuc...443502&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=NDU3Mjg1Ng
> 
> Would this be you luu ?




HOAX ... No Phuc Dat Bich



> “Out of this ordeal I’ve concluded not to trust the credibility of the media, it’s twisted by the hungry journalists who mask the truth ... It goes to show that an average joe like myself can con the the biggest news sources with ease.”




http://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ese-name-hoax-to-fool-news-media-and-facebook

Also read this and thought of the "Resisting climate hysteria thread" ... for the life of me I don't know why?


----------



## luutzu (26 November 2015)

trainspotter said:


> HOAX ... No Phuc Dat Bich
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Son A Bich. Ho Ly Si. Quach Da Phat.


----------



## drsmith (28 November 2015)

drsmith said:


> A test for the Turnbull government,
> 
> http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-...lum-seeker-boat-reaches-christmas-island.html



A test it has passed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-...rn-to-indonesia-from-christmas-island/6980270

The Indonesian captain of the above boat has also previously been a naughty boy,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-...eker-boat-captain-previously-detained/6982558

After squawking about wanting to know more about this boat when the media reports appeared, Labor's Richard Marles has gone deathly silent and the best SHY could come up with was this,



> Green senator Sarah Hanson-Young said the Turnbull government has "serious questions" to answer if the boat was allowed to run out of fuel before washing up in Indonesia.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ter-asylum-seekers-found-20151127-gl9zzi.html

As for Indonesia, as long as we keep turning these Indonesian vessels back, we're not in a weakened position in any co-operation.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ter-asylum-seekers-found-20151127-gl9zzi.html


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## drsmith (19 December 2015)

The OSB monthly update for November has been published and it's been another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-november-4

Over the same period, two attempted people smuggling operations by boat were turned back.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ion-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-november


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

drsmith said:


> The OSB monthly update for November has been published and it's been another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-november-4
> 
> ...




The UN just release a report estimating that there are some 60 million refugees in the world today - the highest number on record. 

So maybe give some thought to why there are so many being displaced and forced to flee their home. That might solve the people smuggler and economic migration crisis we're all worried about.

I mean, we could put all the fences and buy all the cameras and guns we want to keep the bad guys out... sometime such efforts are useless if the entire neighbourhood are stuffed. 

Since this is the only neighbourhood in the solar system, if not the galaxy, maybe get vocal about our masters not riding around with advanced weapons and good propaganda blowing things up... that might help.


----------



## drsmith (19 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> So maybe give some thought to why there are so many being displaced and forced to flee their home. That might solve the people smuggler and economic migration crisis we're all worried about.



Push factors vs pull factors.

Push factors were Labor's first excuse when the boats started to return after softening the Howard government's border protection policies.

Been there, done that. It remains the responsibility of the governments of individual countries to maintain control of their borders and manage the global asylum task through ordered processes and not delegate that to illegal people smuggling operations.


----------



## noco (19 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> The UN just release a report estimating that there are some 60 million refugees in the world today - the highest number on record.
> 
> So maybe give some thought to why there are so many being displaced and forced to flee their home. That might solve the people smuggler and economic migration crisis we're all worried about.
> 
> ...




So what R they fleeing from?

It is either Communism or extreme Islam....Both are evil so what do you propose should be done?..Still bring them to Australia so they practice their Sharia Law or Fabianism (communism) and disrupt our way of life.....it is happening now and should be stopped......You come to Australia...you accept our way of life or piss off!......I am utterly sick of these do gooders. 

We are currently bearing the stupidity of the Fabian indoctrinated Labor party who allowed 50,000 to enter the country illegally and who are still a burden on the tax payers....we have agreed to take in 12,000 Syrian asylum seekers which all added together is adding to blow out in social welfare.....

Who is going to pay for all this and where will the money come from.....Ah yes .....alas......you will say the government....And where will the government get the money from?.......Um yes ...you and me  and you will be the first to scream from the roof tops if the government raises taxes to pay for it.

Most likely you and the Greens would would be happy to take in 60 million......

We are carrying enough financial legacy from the Labor Party without making the matter worse.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

drsmith said:


> Push factors vs pull factors.
> 
> Push factors were Labor's first excuse when the boats started to return after softening the Howard government's border protection policies.
> 
> Been there, done that. It remains the responsibility of the governments of individual countries to maintain control of their borders and manage the global asylum task through ordered processes and not delegate that to illegal people smuggling operations.




People smugglers, like all transport operators, simply charge a fee for a trip on their boat. They do not force people to want to get on that boat.

We can argue about them smugglers not providing safe vessels, life jackets and comfortable seating for refugees... but ey, if them refugees are rich enough, they'd be flying economy and no body will blame them for being economic migrants.


----------



## noco (19 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> People smugglers, like all transport operators, simply charge a fee for a trip on their boat. They do not force people to want to get on that boat.
> 
> We can argue about them smugglers not providing safe vessels, life jackets and comfortable seating for refugees... but ey, if them refugees are rich enough, they'd be flying economy and no body will blame them for being economic migrants.




If they could get to Australia from Indonesia flying economy for less than $1000,(I think it is less than $300 via Bali to Townsville) why do they pay people smugglers $10,000?

The illegal immigrants are not genuine refugees fleeing persecution, they are economic refugees and that is why they throw their ID's over board...If they were genuine and keep their passports and visas they would have been processed in the the same way if they had come in by aircraft.....through costumes and immigration.

I think your argument has been shot down in flames.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

noco said:


> So what R they fleeing from?
> 
> It is either Communism or extreme Islam....Both are evil so what do you propose should be done?..Still bring them to Australia so they practice their Sharia Law or Fabianism (communism) and disrupt our way of life.....it is happening now and should be stopped......You come to Australia...you accept our way of life or piss off!......I am utterly sick of these do gooders.
> 
> ...




take in them 60 million, add our 25 million, factor in their birthrate, and within a generation Australia will have enough economic power and human resource to take over the world! Instead of being mini-Me to the yanks and the poms.

Serious, Australia need a much larger population to make a bunch of infrastructure projects economical. 

With larger population we might come to actually know what to do with the abundant natural resources we got - instead of getting machines to mine and ship them off cheaply overseas, and having multi-national miners not actually paying much on the funny profit they're not making on it.

Which brings us to the main event.

Most Australian on an average income of $75,000 pay more in income tax than most of the largest corporations in Australia. 

But we're worried about the poor on welfare and the refugees breaking our bank account. They're the one that did it.

Another example... A US Tomahawk missile costs $US1.5M each. That's about the same income an average person earn over their entire life yes? Normal people could build a decent public library with that, maybe replace a few demountables with proper brick and mortar classrooms for the kids.. and create a few jobs while we're at it too.

And who knows, that tomahawk equivalent might turn out a few bright kids with them books and teachers.

The US spent about $2 trillion a pop on Afghanistan and Iraq (2014 figure from memory)... I don't think their country are richer or their people more secure because of it. And the fact that ISIS and a few other crazies are dragging them (and us) into Syria where the Russians are also trigger happy there... 

Forget climate change, which of course don't exists... might create ourselves a nuclear winter overnight with these proxy wars, leading to edgy generals, leading to possible mistakes about the other side's First Strike and nuclear retaliation that's on hair trigger alert.

It's like a movie... only it's real, and we could all die.

Anyway... dam refugees... coming over here ruining my country and my way of life with their meanness, terrorism and blind hatred of people who don't look and sound like them.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

noco said:


> If they could get to Australia from Indonesia flying economy for less than $1000,(I think it is less than $300 via Bali to Townsville) why do they pay people smugglers $10,000?
> 
> The illegal immigrants are not genuine refugees fleeing persecution, they are economic refugees and that is why they throw their ID's over board...If they were genuine and keep their passports and visas they would have been processed in the the same way if they had come in by aircraft.....through costumes and immigration.
> 
> I think your argument has been shot down in flames.




If they have $10,000, like you say... then they're risking their life with the rickety boat and the nice people smugglers. If they have $500,000 they'd be dealing with Qantas and Virgin and a few visits to Australian embassies.

Have said it before.. if they are found to not be genuine refugees, then we don't accept them (money talk, bs about freedom and dreams walk, or drown).

That UN report estimate 60 million refugees and dislocated people. UN figure. Of people who flee from their home because they can't stand being bombed on or beng shoot at or having their head cut off by ISIS and them other crazy warlords. 

Call them economic migrants if you want. But if war were brought to our front door, our water supply destroyed or became toxic, our job and meagre way of life wiped off... maybe we would get out of there searching for safety as well as economic help like having a job where you don't get blown up any second.

---

Told you before, most refugees don't bring along their real ID. 
Most don't even have ID in form of passports. You think people living in villages, earning maybe $300 a year would be flying anywhere ever?


----------



## noco (19 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> If they have $10,000, like you say... then they're risking their life with the rickety boat and the nice people smugglers. If they have $500,000 they'd be dealing with Qantas and Virgin and a few visits to Australian embassies.
> 
> Have said it before.. if they are found to not be genuine refugees, then we don't accept them (money talk, bs about freedom and dreams walk, or drown).
> 
> ...




So If they did not have passports or ID's how did they get into Indonesia?...They all flew in through immigration and customs with passports and visas and then threw them overboard once they got onto leaky smugglers boats.

What is this $500,000 you talk about?...As I stated you can fly from Townsville to Bali and return for $300...why pay $10,000 and risk the chance of drowning like over 1250 did under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd.

Your argument does not hold water...only the leaky smugglers boats hold water.


----------



## sails (19 December 2015)

I think the real issue is being missed...  With so many refugees isn't it better to be taking those who have been waiting in camps?  They are the real refugees who don't have money for smugglers and who are prepared to do it tough in crowded conditions rather than return to persecution.  Most likely have their papers too.

Boat arrivals so often seem to have ditched their ID.  If they are genuine refugees you would think their ID would be important to them.  And it's too big a loophole for would be terrorists to get in without ID or much scrutiny.

Surely taking those who are clearly genuine refugees who have been security checked and waiting a long time is a far superior system.  Also they can be properly checked for security reasons prior to being brought into Australia.  

Australia is already doing this with refugees with Syria - possibly something that wouldn't have happened it we'd had thousands more unauthorised boat arrivals taking advantage of a stretched welfare system and who may not even actually be refugees.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

sails said:


> I think the real issue is being missed...  With so many refugees isn't it better to be taking those who have been waiting in camps?  They are the real refugees who don't have money for smugglers and who are prepared to do it tough in crowded conditions rather than return to persecution.  Most likely have their papers too.
> 
> Boat arrivals so often seem to have ditched their ID.  If they are genuine refugees you would think their ID would be important to them.  And it's too big a loophole for would be terrorists to get in without ID or much scrutiny.
> 
> ...




The wave of Syrian refugees we saw in recent months heading to Europe do so because all the refugee camps nearby are full and can no longer accept anymore of them.

I heard that there's a few millions in Jordan, a few million in Lebanon.. and there are even refugees from Iraq in Iran; Syrian refugees fleeing to Iraq recently; and those in Turkey have been there since the war start in 2011 and seeing no end in sight, that and Turkey is getting drawn into Syria and the alliance etc.

Then there's those in Africa fleeing to neighbouring African refugee camps for at least a decade now.

It's only when conditions got much much worst, creating more and more refugees that they flow into Europe. And when they get to Europe that's when the world know there's this refugee crisis.

----

In terms procedures. Yes proper checks must be made; and they are. There's security checks, then health if all the paper works and claims are met. These are done and should be.


----------



## sails (19 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> The wave of Syrian refugees we saw in recent months heading to Europe do so because all the refugee camps nearby are full and can no longer accept anymore of them.
> 
> I heard that there's a few millions in Jordan, a few million in Lebanon.. and there are even refugees from Iraq in Iran; Syrian refugees fleeing to Iraq recently; and those in Turkey have been there since the war start in 2011 and seeing no end in sight, that and Turkey is getting drawn into Syria and the alliance etc.
> 
> ...




All the more reason that those using smugglers and getting rid of their IDs should take second preference to those who are deemed to be genuine refugees and who have proven so by waiting in camps for placement.

Very difficult to thoroughly check background when IDs have been destroyed as we understand has been the case with many boat arrivals under the last government.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

noco said:


> So If they did not have passports or ID's how did they get into Indonesia?...They all flew in through immigration and customs with passports and visas and then threw them overboard once they got onto leaky smugglers boats.
> 
> What is this $500,000 you talk about?...As I stated you can fly from Townsville to Bali and return for $300...why pay $10,000 and risk the chance of drowning like over 1250 did under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd.
> 
> Your argument does not hold water...only the leaky smugglers boats hold water.




Was saying that if a person from the rich countries want to migrate to another rich country, all they need is some cash and fly over; If they're from the poorer countries, they'd need about half a million dollars and that'll take care of the paper works and all the requirements they'd need to legally get on over.

They don't even need to pay or bring all that cash. Just show they have it, apply for a student visa or work visa.. done.


----------



## noco (19 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> Was saying that if a person from the rich countries want to migrate to another rich country, all they need is some cash and fly over; If they're from the poorer countries, they'd need about half a million dollars and that'll take care of the paper works and all the requirements they'd need to legally get on over.
> 
> They don't even need to pay or bring all that cash. Just show they have it, apply for a student visa or work visa.. done.




OMG...you are romancing with yourself ...where is your link to what you are saying...back it up or drop out of the argument.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

noco said:


> OMG...you are romancing with yourself ...where is your link to what you are saying...back it up or drop out of the argument.




You can check them from Dept of Immigration sites.

I know people who have done exactly what I just said.

There are many Aussie graduates who decided to live a couple years abroad so hop on a plane and off to the UK or US they go. They would then travel the place as they find some casual job, or if they're more qualified find more stable employment and could in a few years apply to migrate permanently. Or go back to Australia and raise a family here.

There's that 457 visa program and skilled migrant intake.

It's tougher if you're from a poor country to get over... but if you're qualified, have enough dollars... you could get sponsored over or come over to study and maybe find a spouse and stay permanently.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2015)

sails said:


> All the more reason that those using smugglers and getting rid of their IDs should take second preference to those who are deemed to be genuine refugees and who have proven so by waiting in camps for placement.
> 
> Very difficult to thoroughly check background when IDs have been destroyed as we understand has been the case with many boat arrivals under the last government.




If all their documents are destroyed and no copies or new document can be issued from their home country, then it's up to the migration officer how genuine the case for asylum is.

I would assume that in most cases, when they apply for refugee status they will send for their documents from relatives back home.

Getting a refugee or any sort of visa into the Western countries are not easy. I've seen news and documentary showing how the process starts with the UNHCR, then if they are sastisfied it'd be refereed to the third country for further checks and interviews; then if pass that then it's onto health checks etc.

Entire process takes over two years.

So the recent Syrians into Europe.. they have to, most of them, because the other camps around the region are all full. And being full because more refugees are being made than there are places and countries that would take them.

So them making that journey would mean they're "skipping the queue"... but there's no more queue to line up in. And the only benefit they gain is that they have their claims assessed sooner because they forced it on the Europeans.

We in the West have our quotas, which is somewhat generous... but those quotas are for "normal" times.

There are some 9 wars going on the the ME and North Africa at the moment; there's a couple in Eastern Europe and a couple more that might start soon... Time is anything but normal.


----------



## DB008 (19 December 2015)

​


----------



## noco (19 December 2015)

DB008 said:


> ​





Wow..What an eye opener....And yet the world is spending trillions of dollars om weapons and fighting wars and terrorists.


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## luutzu (20 December 2015)

DB008 said:


> ​





While the bubble gums was a nice visual aid, the entire premise is flawed.

First, he claimed, correctly I'm assuming, that more than half the world earn less than $2 a day - living under the poverty line, way under.

So that's around 3.5 billion people being poor and wouldn't mind at all earning twice or three times their current wage at $6 a day. 

He then conclude that since there are so many poor people, we can't help them all by taking them in to our country so we have to help them where they live. That's also true.

What's false and misleading is that... well those 3.5 billion people are not seeking asylum. They wouldn't mind having similar standard of living as the West, but they are not seeking refuge, are they? They are still living where they were born, still around their family and trying to make ends meet with whatever they can scrape.

So the claim that refugees are poor people (implying they're economic migrants) and we can't help all poor people... is misleading.

UN define refugee as: "A refugee is someone who has been *forced to flee* his or her country because of *persecution, war, or violence*."


So OK, we can't bring all the poor people of the world into the West... can we bring in some refugees or they're all one and the same?

Put another way... if we see poor and homeless people walking down the street... we might feel sorry for them and wish their situation has been better but we can't bring them all into our house.

But what if we see people being chased down the street by a killer and they're screaming for help? What if chased by ISIS? Or their house is in the way of our drones and jets, or that of Russia's and Assad and other nice armies around?

Soo... they're poor, what they have are either blown away and they're running from what's coming to them any day. This guy is spinning it and tell us to just focus on the them being poor bits.


----------



## luutzu (20 December 2015)

noco said:


> Wow..What an eye opener....And yet the world is spending trillions of dollars om weapons and fighting wars and terrorists.




Give any normal person a couple trillion dollars and they could bring peace and prosperity to billions with stupid things like funding schools and building homes and creating jobs in infrastructures and research and science and might make a few billion friends from the returns and reinvestment from the initial trillions.

Give the same to a bunch of warmongers and little Napoleons and they literally set the world on fire. Flattening cities and causing death and destruction abroad and insecurity and poverty at home. Then come ask for a few more please - for peace keeping and our own security of course.


----------



## noco (5 January 2016)

The Hooker...


An Illegal Immigrant picks up a hooker.

"Hey, how much you charge for da hour, sister?" he asks.
"$100" she replies.


In broken English, he says,
"Do you do immigrant style? 
"No" she says.


"I pay you $200 to do immigrant style."
"No, “she says, not knowing what immigrant style is.


"I pay you $300."
"No" she says.


"I pay you $400. 
"No" she says.


So finally he says,
 "OK, I pay $1,000 to do immigrant style."



She thinks, “Well, I've been in the game for over 10 years now. I've had every kind of request from weirdoes from every part of the world. How bad could immigrant style be?

So she agrees and has sex with him. 


Finally, they finish.


Exhausted, the hooker turns to him and says,
"Hey, I was expecting something perverted and disgusting. But that was ok. So, what exactly is immigrant style?"



The illegal immigrant replies, "You send bill to Government."




AND THAT MY FRIENDLY TAXPAYER,
IS EXACTLY WHAT THE ILLEGAL 
IMMIGRANTS ARE DOING TO US!

Screwing us and we pay!


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2016)

noco said:


> The Hooker...
> 
> 
> An Illegal Immigrant picks up a hooker....
> ...




I think illegal immigrants were already screwed, that's why they fled.

Some of them might fled from friends and allies of ours; some fled from consequences of our grand strategies for world peace and whatnot. And those who aren't fleeing from war and terror flee because trade policies we sold to them and their corrupt gov't fair and square send the poor bastards running for a low wage job across the border.

Have you seen The Big Short? Even a couple of Wall St type making hundreds of millions see who's screwing the people.


----------



## drsmith (13 January 2016)

The OSB monthly update for December has been published and it's been another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-december-4

Also of interest is the turn back stats in the 2 years since that element of the program began.



> From the first turn back on 19 December 2013 through to 31 December 2015, OSB has returned 685 people aboard 23 ventures to their countries of departure.




http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ion-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-december

The success of the overall policy over the past two years is illustrated in the following tables both in terms of the number of attempts and more importantly from the perspective of our border security, the number of successes.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ook-the-reigns-on-border-control-in-2013.html


----------



## drsmith (3 February 2016)

High Court throws out challenge to offshore immigration detention.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-03/high-court-throws-out-challenge-to-offshore-detention/7135504


----------



## drsmith (3 February 2016)

Division still in the Labor ranks on asylum policy ?



> Labor's deputy leader Tanya Plibersek has called for children to be released from Nauru and mainland detention centres as soon as possible, describing Australia's asylum seeker politics since 2001 as "nothing less than toxic".








http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...cs-toxic-tanya-plibersek-20160203-gmkp4q.html


----------



## orr (3 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> High Court throws out challenge to offshore immigration detention.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-03/high-court-throws-out-challenge-to-offshore-detention/7135504




Some where in Dante's fictional rings of hell there is someone buggering a child as a warning to others not to go there. You Smith  and your fellow travellers have give us the reality....


----------



## noco (3 February 2016)

orr said:


> Some where in Dante's fictional rings of hell there is someone buggering a child as a warning to others not to go there. You Smith  and your fellow travelers have give us the reality....




Why take it out on Dr.Smith?.......He is only forwarding a report.....You seem to be advocating Dr.Smith is in favor of what  has transpired.......You don't really know what the good Doc thinks.

He has also commented on the division within the Labor Party.......The Labor Party are at odds with each other on the matter.


----------



## Tisme (4 February 2016)

I wonder how long the public is going to go along with the charade that the policy is a preventative drowning measure, when we all know it's zenophobia in play. 

The magnitude of selective misopedia is stain on our conscience that will one day be brought to account as a shame. Of course there are those who just don't value children, their welfare and well being.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> I wonder how long the public is going to go along with the charade that the policy is a preventative drowning measure, when we all know it's zenophobia in play.
> 
> The magnitude of selective misopedia is stain on our conscience that will one day be brought to account as a shame. Of course there are those who just don't value children, their welfare and well being.




I think that there is both xenophobia and a belief that mandatory detention saves lives, but you are right, the lifesaving feature is the excuse rather than the reason.

No children (over breastfeeding age) should be in detention, they should be going to school, hopefully with the prospect of turning them into integrated Australians rather than potential Aussie hating terrorists.

That both the previous and current governments have seen fit to keep them in detention is a shame on them and the whole country.


----------



## noco (4 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I think that there is both xenophobia and a belief that mandatory detention saves lives, but you are right, the lifesaving feature is the excuse rather than the reason.
> 
> No children (over breastfeeding age) should be in detention, they should be going to school, hopefully with the prospect of turning them into integrated Australians rather than potential Aussie hating terrorists.
> 
> That both the previous and current governments have seen fit to keep them in detention is a shame on them and the whole country.




If those twits had not thrown there ID's over board on the way to Australia via Indonesia and people smugglers, they would not be in detention for the length of time they now experience...In many cases, kids are still in detention because their parents want it that way and they will remain there until such times as the Australian government can establish where they come from and if the father has a criminal record.

Nobody can deny the fact that since the people smugglers have been out of business, there has been no deaths at sea.

Nobody can deny the fact that sexual abuse may take place on Nauru but this practice is more prevalent in the Australian Aboriginal communities of which there is very little publicity given but because it happens in a detention center, the Human rights, lefties and the Greens make a big scene of it....Sexual abuse is also happening in our own Australian homes every day....Very seldom do you hear about it that either.

A child of 5 is sexually abused on Nauru and the whole world knows about it.


----------



## basilio (4 February 2016)

The Anglican Church has now offered sanctuary to the asylum seekers who are supposed to be sent back to Nauru. If the government wants them they will have to invade the cathedrals and drag them off  the Bishops (so to speak.  )

It will be so interesting to see how the politicians and the public react to this. I wonder what the reaction would be if Mosques also offered protection asylum seekers? Or the Salvation Army ?

Watch this space


> *
> Churches become potential flashpoint after offering sanctuary to asylum seekers in wake of High Court verdict
> *
> Date
> ...




http://www.canberratimes.com.au/fed...ke-of-high-court-verdict-20160203-gml5qk.html


----------



## Tink (4 February 2016)

well aren't the Greens hypocrites....

Legal not moral ?

Unjust laws?

Oh please...

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=20238&page=51&p=890574&viewfull=1#post890574


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## SirRumpole (5 February 2016)

Maybe a very bright orange light at least for future refugees.

No doubt this will be popular in the electorate so it's likely to get bi-partisan support.

Leaked government document outlines tougher migration program, increased monitoring of refugees

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-04/leaked-document-outlines-changes-to-migration/7140952


----------



## qldfrog (5 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> I wonder how long the public is going to go along with the charade that the policy is a preventative drowning measure, when we all know it's zenophobia in play.
> 
> The magnitude of selective misopedia is stain on our conscience that will one day be brought to account as a shame. Of course there are those who just don't value children, their welfare and well being.



And of course there are those who just value their children, their welfare and well being... Think again..but what would I know eh.


----------



## drsmith (5 February 2016)

The fundamental lesson here is not to break what was fixed but that's what Labor did after it took office in 2007 and something Labor still struggles with judging by Tanya Plibersek's comments as reported above.


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe a very bright orange light at least for future refugees.
> 
> No doubt this will be popular in the electorate so it's likely to get bi-partisan support.
> 
> ...




Election campaigning already.


----------



## dutchie (5 February 2016)

luutzu said:


> Election campaigning already.




Yes, you can't keep the ABC quiet for too long.


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2016)

dutchie said:


> Yes, you can't keep the ABC quiet for too long.




Good one. 

But no, it's not "leaked".

Sent out to appease some of its electorate. Look how tough and how hard we work to secure the country against Refugees... we'll screen them like nuts, once they're cleared to come into our land and live among us, we'll be watching them too - just in case they lied to us and turn Jihad.

I thought we're all being watched? And Muslims more watched than others already.


----------



## drsmith (8 February 2016)

Something more for the self proclaimed moral preachers to consider including the ABC (again), a church group and those state premiers who think that responsibility for national security ends at the state boundary.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/30761258/nauru-deportation-within-days-says-immigration-chief/

The above covers a range of issues including some recently referred to in this thread.



> The head of the Immigration Department has warned a campaign by premiers and refugee advocates to stop 267 asylum seekers being returned to Nauru is counter-productive and undermines authorities’ efforts to quietly let them stay.
> 
> People with cancer and terminal illnesses among those facing deportation, with Immigration Department Secretary Michael Pezzullo saying the first returns could take place within days.
> 
> ...


----------



## dutchie (8 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> Something more for the self proclaimed moral preachers to consider including the ABC (again), a church group and those state premiers who think that responsibility for national security ends at the state boundary.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/30761258/nauru-deportation-within-days-says-immigration-chief/
> 
> The above covers a range of issues including some recently referred to in this thread.




_Asked about an ABC news report last week that alleged a five-year-old boy was raped while in detention, Mr Pezzullo said it was wrong.

“It’s a figment,” he said.

Departmental First Assistant Secretary Cheryl-Anne Moy told Estimates that she checked with the doctor in the report, Karen Zwi. She said Dr Zwi had never told the ABC the victim was five years old and did not know how it came to be reported that way.
_

The ABC can make its own version of the news as long it's anti- coalition.


----------



## drsmith (8 February 2016)

dutchie said:


> The ABC can make its own version of the news as long it's anti- coalition.



The Abbott government didn't fit in with the ABC's moral compass.

The Turnbull government does (for now) but border security is one specific policy area that does not.

With the specific issue above, the ABC has acknowledged its error (again). 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...-reporting-nauru-child-sexual-assault/7150320

That like before won't see a reset in moral compass.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2016)

*Shocking numbers that sum up Syrian Civil War*

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/shocking-numbers-that-sum-up-syrian-civil-war/news-story/0361e487c319253b7703d7cc881cb2c8


THE NUMBERS
● More than 270,000 killed
● Life expectancy reduced by 20 years
● Four million Syrians are external refugees
● Nearly seven million are displaced inside the country
● Four out of five Syrians live in poverty
● Unemployment has risen to nearly 60 per cent
● Four million children are missing out on formal schooling
● More than 80 per cent of country’s electricity has been cut
● More than $US200 billion in damage and lost revenue
● Thirteen million in need of assistance
● Largest current refugee crisis in the world


Might want to take a look at the video in that link. Same as those photos of Europe after  WW2.

Two generations of Syrians are pretty much destroyed. The Third generation might slowly get back on their feet and be lucky if they have enough to eat. The fourth can go to school again.


----------



## Tisme (9 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> The Abbott government didn't fit in with the ABC's moral compass.
> 
> The Turnbull government does (for now) but border security is one specific policy area that does not.
> 
> ...




I don't agree with your assessment that the ABC shows a bias towards any particular political faction...castor oil tastes bad and always comes with protest. However I do take umbrage with the talking heads on their Breakfast show, especially the pompous Virginia and her inflated sense of self worth. 

Everyone is aware that that Mark Scott's DNA is rooted deeply in the Liberal Party? He was (and probably still is) a Liberal Party adviser and served as chief of staff in the Griener Govt?

Insofar as the 5 yearold rape, I don't see any back down from the ABC on that being evidenced by an attending Doctor, merely the report confused two children? Apparently adult "skin on (child) skin" molestation  is not of concern to the Federal govt, but gravitas to State govts. But eh, they are third world kids ...who gives a sh1te.


----------



## noco (9 February 2016)

luutzu said:


> *Shocking numbers that sum up Syrian Civil War*
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/shocking-numbers-that-sum-up-syrian-civil-war/news-story/0361e487c319253b7703d7cc881cb2c8
> 
> ...




Is it not true the whole problem in Syria is all about religion.....Muslims fighting Muslims.....Suunies V Shiite for dominance....ISIS interference.....intervention by Russia and the West

And when it all settles down and they sort themselves out the West will come in and invest $billions to rebuild the destruction they created....There will be plenty of work in Syria in the years to come.

What do you think?


----------



## luutzu (9 February 2016)

noco said:


> Is it not true the whole problem in Syria is all about religion.....Muslims fighting Muslims.....Suunies V Shiite for dominance....ISIS interference.....intervention by Russia and the West
> 
> And when it all settles down and they sort themselves out the West will come in and invest $billions to rebuild the destruction they created....There will be plenty of work in Syria in the years to come.
> 
> What do you think?




Yea, I have read a few headlines calling this Syrian war a "Civil War" - as in, Syrian versus Syrian, brothers against brothers. That's just journalist not reading the very recent history of their subject matter.

I'm sure that if a foreign power were to send their special ops into Australia and armed a few groups within Australia, they'll want to Reclaim Australia against the UN-backed and Leftist Reds that's ruining the place too.

Don't get me wrong, Assad and his regime are not comparable to Australia and its mostly bought but paid for by the plebs gov't. But fact is, you give enough guns and training to any minor group within any society and there will be "civil war" to liberate something.

I'm pretty sure those dead Syrians and those Syrians living in poverty and daily sorties run would rather the West and Russia not play Chess on their land with their idiots and tyrants. They probably were very happy with the old home they got rather than knocked it down to maybe rebuild later.


----------



## Tisme (9 February 2016)

luutzu said:


> They probably were very happy with the old home they got rather than knocked it down to maybe rebuild later.




I'll be interested to see if the refugees are welcomed back or shunned by their own kind when the conflict ends and peace prevails.


----------



## drsmith (9 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> I don't agree with your assessment that the ABC shows a bias towards any particular political faction...castor oil tastes bad and always comes with protest. However I do take umbrage with the talking heads on their Breakfast show, especially the pompous Virginia and her inflated sense of self worth.
> 
> Everyone is aware that that Mark Scott's DNA is rooted deeply in the Liberal Party? He was (and probably still is) a Liberal Party adviser and served as chief of staff in the Griener Govt?
> 
> Insofar as the 5 yearold rape, I don't see any back down from the ABC on that being evidenced by an attending Doctor, merely the report confused two children? Apparently adult "skin on (child) skin" molestation  is not of concern to the Federal govt, but gravitas to State govts. But eh, they are third world kids ...who gives a sh1te.



In their desire to report negatively on the current government's border protection policies, they get facts wrong. This is a lack of due diligence in the accuracy of their reporting driven by their bias. For a taxpayer funded broadcaster, it's very poor indeed.

As for your good self, still waiting for a solution that rates appropriately on your prevention index.


----------



## drsmith (9 February 2016)

luutzu said:


> *Shocking numbers that sum up Syrian Civil War*



That in this thread is presumably a reference to push factors.

That was also Kevin Rudd's line.


----------



## Tisme (9 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> In their desire to report negatively on the current government's border protection policies, they get facts wrong. This is a lack of due diligence in the accuracy of their reporting driven by their bias. For a taxpayer funded broadcaster, it's very poor indeed.
> 
> As for your good self, still waiting for a solution that rates appropriately on your prevention index.




I disagree they report negatively and you are yet to provide any proofs of bias against your beloved Liberal Party.

In regards to the tease, well lets roll out the counter for any knew members who might have children or grand children:

I am still worried that we are yet to see a demonstrable regret by you and your cohort in promoting lascivious material to minors, while denouncing my concern for people like you.... you know.... displaying zip morality. Danger, Danger Will Robinson !!!!!!

I obviously cause you grief, evidenced by your continued attempts to needle me with a pathetic line about refugee prevention indices; this pleases me ....no really, it pleases me to know you feel anger and therefore are not a total sociopath, so no excuse for your lack of moral fibre when it comes to children and obviously people in distress. Your posts are forever on the net my son.


----------



## drsmith (9 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> I disagree they report negatively and you are yet to provide any proofs of bias against your beloved Liberal Party.
> 
> In regards to the tease, well lets roll out the counter for any knew members who might have children or grand children:
> 
> ...



Don't forget that prevention index was your line.


----------



## orr (9 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> Something more for the self proclaimed moral preachers to consider including the ABC (again), a church group and those state premiers who think that responsibility for national security ends at the state boundary.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/30761258/nauru-deportation-within-days-says-immigration-chief/
> 
> The above covers a range of issues including some recently referred to in this thread.




Is that Pezzullo that's mentioned; is that the  same Pezzullo? of Australian Boarder Force(ABF) who wants Jack booted goon squads marching the suburbs demanding to 'ze your paperz' in those 'oh so fetching' black uniforms in the infamous 'Operation Fortitude' farce.

And why this report today? 

_'The paediatrician Karen Zwi who risked jail by speaking to the ABC is not backing away from her allegation that this was rape and the child of about 15 suffered serious mental health problems as a result. Yet Pezzullo – and the government he serves – are making it clear he will eventually be sent back to the camp where he was attacked.'  _

The Moss Review, released on the evening of Malcolm Frasers Funeral, was to my knowledge 'undisgust' in this thread to this point. Pages 23 to 42 make for good reading.
https://www.border.gov.au/Reportsan...ies/review-conditions-circumstances-nauru.pdf


----------



## drsmith (9 February 2016)

orr said:


> Is that Pezzullo that's mentioned; is that the  same Pezzullo? of Australian Boarder Force(ABF) who wants Jack booted goon squads marching the suburbs demanding to 'ze your paperz' in those 'oh so fetching' black uniforms in the infamous 'Operation Fortitude' farce.



Was the ABC right or was it wrong ?


----------



## drsmith (16 February 2016)

The OSB monthly update for January shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-january-4


----------



## noco (17 February 2016)

drsmith said:


> The OSB monthly update for January shows another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-january-4




The LUG party won't like that one bit.


----------



## basilio (21 February 2016)

Has anyone wondered how the medical staff for Papua New-Guinea  were found ? Like what type of people would apply for and be employed to work as doctors ect in what is effectively a prison camp ?

It seems that if you want to fill the positions you have to take anyone with a pulse and medical story and hold your nose tightly

 Doctor Max Mehta, on US child sex abuse charge, worked on Christmas Island



> *Several medical practitioners with question marks against their record have been employed in Australian immigration detention centres*
> Dr Mehta
> Mehta, who was charged in Texas over allegations he groomed a 15-year-old deaf girl for sex in an online chat room, was hired by IHMS. Photograph: Supplied
> 
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/australi...s-sex-child-charge-worked-on-christmas-island


----------



## luutzu (21 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'll be interested to see if the refugees are welcomed back or shunned by their own kind when the conflict ends and peace prevails.




From personal experience and stories I heard from friends and relatives - refugees with dollars and Euros will always be welcomed back to visit. Just as all those with them currency are welcome everywhere I guess.

But more to the point, I have never heard or experience any ill will or any hate against returning refugees (once peace resumes and the country starts to dig itself our of flatten buildings and craters). The VNese I met don't even hate the Americans or Western powers. I find that kind of strange to be honest.

The younger kids and students... they don't like America so much - but the harshest thing I ever heard was that America was so evil, they used Agent Orange on our people. But there is no hatred for the American people, or French or White/Western people. 

I think the older folks kind of accept that that's what happen in war. They just pick up the pieces and try to live again after it's all over. No use in holding grudges and stuff.

--

As to how whoever will gov't the place after... they will behave as all gov't does and welcome anyone back and in if they bring cash and not afraid to use it. 

Still remember how the comrades call the refugees traitors etc. etc. in the 70s and 80s. But then welcome these traitors back, calling them lost children of the Motherland coming back home - and bring a lot of dollars please.

Syria's road to recover a a decade down the track will see the current refugees playing a big (economic) part I think. They will send back money to relatives to help them through, and those billions will help the economy. Without that initial bridge, Syria and Syrians will have a very though time getting out of this place between empires it somehow find itself in.


----------



## moXJO (8 March 2016)

Wow did I read this correctly....
Europe adopts "Turn back the boats policy"



> They will participate in an operation aimed at reducing the flow of migrants from Turkey to Europe by spotting smugglers and sharing information with the Turkish coast guard, the statement said. From there, it's up to the Turkish coast guard to determine whether to turn smugglers' boats around.
> 
> "We've got to break the business model of the criminal smugglers and stop the desperate flow of people crammed into makeshift vessels from embarking on a fruitless and perilous journey," Cameron said.




Lol wonder if the same people that scoffed at the idea when Tony Abbott gave his speech have now suddenly changed their mind.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2016)

moXJO said:


> Wow did I read this correctly....
> Europe adopts "Turn back the boats policy"
> 
> 
> ...




I'm not sure they scoffed at Abbott so much as the repackaged Pacific Solution that both Labor and the LNP agreed to in bi partisan support of the Howard legislation.

Abbotts policy and principle was predicated on the subsequently modified and implemented Pacific Solution mkII made by Rudd after tons of stupid monies being spent by Gillard on preparations.


----------



## drsmith (8 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'm not sure they scoffed at Abbott so much as the repackaged Pacific Solution that both Labor and the LNP agreed to in bi partisan support of the Howard legislation.
> 
> Abbotts policy and principle was predicated on the subsequently modified and implemented Pacific Solution mkII made by Rudd after tons of stupid monies being spent by Gillard on preparations.



One upon reading that with their head otherwise in the sand would think Labor and Liberal have been in lockstep on asylum policy over the past 15 years.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2016)

drsmith said:


> One upon reading that with their head otherwise in the sand would think Labor and Liberal have been in lockstep on asylum policy over the past 15 years.




The relevance to the scoffing statement is the key = there was no two party alternative policy, although the Greens supporters would no doubt be scoffing still at the use of Stalags. Goes to equal treatment bias.


----------



## drsmith (8 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> The relevance to the scoffing statement is the key =* there was no two party alternative policy*, although the Greens supporters would no doubt be scoffing still at the use of Stalags. Goes to equal treatment bias.



You must think anyone reading this must have very short memories.

My bolds.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2016)

drsmith said:


> You must think anyone reading this must have very short memories.
> 
> My bolds.




I expect those reading this to have enough knowledge to make a value judgement based on facts....all I can do is remind them of those facts incase they become fractured at the hands of fox cunning.


----------



## drsmith (8 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I expect those reading this to have enough knowledge to make a value judgement based on facts....all I can do is remind them of those facts incase they become fractured at the hands of fox cunning.



What happened under 6 years of Labor government leaves a lasting stain on the memory.

That's why they now pretend to be in lockstep with policies such as offshore processing and boat turn backs.


----------



## moXJO (8 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I expect those reading this to have enough knowledge to make a value judgement based on facts....all I can do is remind them of those facts incase they become fractured at the hands of fox cunning.




Pretty sure everyone knows labor opened the boarders then panicked. The Pacific solution was not going to do much. Abbott with his Bogan mantra of turn back the boats did.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2016)

drsmith said:


> What happened under 6 years of Labor government leaves a lasting stain on the memory.
> 
> That's why they now pretend to be in lockstep with policies such as offshore processing and boat turn backs.




A lot of Labor people concede that the Libs got it right on boat turnbacks.

That doesn't excuse the atrocious conditions that the refugees live under on Mannus or Nauru, which continue under this government.


----------



## noco (8 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> A lot of Labor people concede that the Libs got it right on boat turnbacks.
> 
> That doesn't excuse the atrocious conditions that the refugees live under on Mannus or Nauru, which continue under this government.




What are the atrocious conditions?...(EXAGGERATION)....They get 3 feeds a day, somewhere to sleep, they are given clean bedding and clothes, free medical and dental care, cigarettes and free mobile phones.....What do you expect? ...A 5 star hotel?......They are not there for a good time........They get better treatment than our old aged pensioners her in Australia.

But apart from all that, who is responsible for them being there in the first place?....Who set up these camps to accommodate them?......Why are they being held so long?

If you don't know the answers, let me know and I will gladly explain it to you.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2016)

noco said:


> They get better treatment than our old aged pensioners her in Australia.




I very much doubt that.



> But apart from all that, who is responsible for them being there in the first place?....Who set up these camps to accommodate them?......Why are they being held so long?




What has that got to do with current conditions ?


----------



## noco (8 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I very much doubt that.
> 
> 
> 
> What has that got to do with current conditions ?




EVERYTHING!


----------



## moXJO (9 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> A lot of Labor people concede that the Libs got it right on boat turnbacks.
> 
> That doesn't excuse the atrocious conditions that the refugees live under on Mannus or Nauru, which continue under this government.




The boats don't reach here anymore so the camps should empty a lot quicker. Europe's open door policy became a joke very quickly. 
How did that work out for them?
How many dead at sea?
How much did crime increase?


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2016)

moXJO said:


> The boats don't reach here anymore so the camps should empty a lot quicker. Europe's open door policy became a joke very quickly.
> How did that work out for them?
> How many dead at sea?
> How much did crime increase?




I don't think the Europeans are going down the "shut the gate" route. There's a swap system being adopted instead. Europe has a long history of death, destruction and emmigration, so it's mindset is probably somewhat an antithesis of Australian attitudes in some respects.


----------



## noco (9 March 2016)

There are some 400 Iranians in detention on Nauru and Manus who are economic refugees and who have not fled from persecution......They, along with a further 9000 in limbo in Australia may also soon be returned  to Iran.... I guess they will have to start working for a living for a change instead of being a burden on the Australian tax payer.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/w...s-to-send-failed-asylum-seekers-back-to-iran/

*Iran has been one of the biggest source countries for boat people arrivals in Australia but Tehran has long refused to accept involuntary returnees. This has left almost 9000 Iranian asylum seekers in limbo.
Julie Bishop.

While about 400 are in detention on Nauru and Manus Island, the rest are on the mainland, mostly living in the community.

Under the repatriation agreement, Australia would demand guarantees from Iran that returnees would not be persecuted or punished.*


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2016)

noco said:


> There are some 400 Iranians in detention on Nauru and Manus who are economic refugees and who have not fled from persecution......They, along with a further 9000 in limbo in Australia may also soon be returned  to Iran.... I guess they will have to start working for a living for a change instead of being a burden on the Australian tax payer.
> 
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/w...s-to-send-failed-asylum-seekers-back-to-iran/
> ...




If you can't take the words of the has-been Axis of Evil, whose words can you take to not persecute ey?

Don't think this policy of denial and "legal" righteousness solve anything.

Yes, all them "migrants" flooding into Europe on leaky boats are economic migrants. The fact that their country and neighbouring countries are at constant war for over 15 years got nothing at all to do with them getting the heck out.

Then of course the legal high ground... there are lines Ahmeds, get in them. We're a nation of law and obligations... except those dam international laws and treaties and stuff that goes against what we want.

Pretty amazing how insulated some of us can be.


----------



## drsmith (9 March 2016)

Of the 5 refugees who volunteered to go to Cambodia, 4 have gone home. Of that sample, it just shows what proportion is genuine.


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I don't think the Europeans are going down the "shut the gate" route. There's a swap system being adopted instead. Europe has a long history of death, destruction and emmigration, so it's mindset is probably somewhat an antithesis of Australian attitudes in some respects.



As long as no one asks Europeans what their view is, there is consensus.....
Democracy at work: here, in the US, in Aus....
 So maybe we need more Trump and the like actually, clowns have some merits


----------



## Tisme (10 March 2016)

qldfrog said:


> As long as no one asks Europeans what their view is, there is consensus.....
> Democracy at work: here, in the US, in Aus....
> So maybe we need more Trump and the like actually, clowns have some merits




I noticed a news piece this morning about the Balkan states blocking refugee movements from Greece. Not sure if that is part of the Turkish solution or not.

Trump was smart enough to tap the dispossessed WASPS of the USA as his core supporters, others with an axe to grind are buddying up to that,  40% of whites in the US have Nordic/Anglo/Saxon/Norman roots (24% of the total population)...... the rest are a clear and present danger


----------



## drsmith (17 March 2016)

Immigration Minister Peter Dutton in a media conference on asylum seeker boats and detention updates the progress of OSB as follows,



> •Two boats have been turned back in recent weeks
> 
> •Over the life of Operation Sovereign Borders 25 boats with 698 people have been turned back
> 
> ...




I did see a media report recently of a boat containing 6 passengers and 2 crew being turned back to Indonesia.


----------



## Tisme (17 March 2016)

drsmith said:


> Immigration Minister Peter Dutton in a media conference on asylum seeker boats and detention updates the progress of OSB as follows,
> 
> 
> 
> I did see a media report recently of a boat containing 6 passengers and 2 crew being turned back to Indonesia.




I wonder how many get through undetected.


----------



## drsmith (17 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I wonder how many get through undetected.



Not as many as used to ring the marine taxi service that operated under Labor from 12 NM off Indonesia.

You really are clutching at straws now.


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2016)

The OSB monthly update for February shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-february-2


----------



## dutchie (18 March 2016)

There's a light starting to flicker in the UK


Send warships to tow Med migrants back, says the PM: David Cameron calls for EU to follow the lead of Australia to help stem the human tide

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ralia-help-stem-human-tide.html#ixzz43Dhmsc5d


----------



## luutzu (18 March 2016)

dutchie said:


> There's a light starting to flicker in the UK
> 
> 
> Send warships to tow Med migrants back, says the PM: David Cameron calls for EU to follow the lead of Australia to help stem the human tide
> ...




Wow man... 

Whatever happen to, I don't know, maybe don't start wars and take out dictators we don't like and regime change and things like that.

But I wouldn't worry too much... I have heard it a few months back that there are plans and some failed attempt to deflate those rafts along Libya's wide coasts.

I guess that cost too much so they decided to remove Italy's rescue efforts and hope that people die on their way across the ocean and that'll stop them.

It's a very sadistic way to solve problems we kinda have a hand in... but ey, as long as there are scapegoats and multinational corporations get to not pay tax and get bailed out and no one seem to really care about that's a major cause of their economic decline... 

Anywho... dam poor people and refugees... why be poor for? Making the country poor by them being poor. It's not like domestic policies make them poor and foreign policies turn their somewhat liveable homes into demolition sites they somehow figured it's better to risk it at sea


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> Wow man...
> 
> Anywho... dam poor people and refugees... why be poor for? Making the country poor by them being poor. It's not like domestic policies make them poor and foreign policies turn their somewhat liveable homes into demolition sites they somehow figured it's better to risk it at sea




It seems they want to tow back boats to Turkey and Libya.

 People who get to Turkey and Libya from Syria should not be in danger anymore so they are no longer refugees. 

They are country picking just like the people trying to get to Australia via Indonesia. That's where the people smugglers operate from.


----------



## luutzu (18 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems they want to tow back boats to Turkey and Libya.
> 
> People who get to Turkey and Libya from Syria should not be in danger anymore so they are no longer refugees.
> 
> They are country picking just like the people trying to get to Australia via Indonesia. That's where the people smugglers operate from.




Libya is still one big mess, it hasn't gotten any better since Qaddafi was overthrown some 3 [?] years ago.

Turkey just suffered some 5 terrorist bombings, killing some 220 people past five weeks or so.

Of course they're country shopping. The neighbouring countries are either at war or about to go to war or all their refugee camps are full.

Of course there are people smugglers. Supply/Demand, free market stuff.

---

We should really stop making ourselves victims of come heinous crime or being suckers or weaklings if we don't stand tough on refugees and welfare chasers and all that.

These are human beings. Their cities are destroyed. So we can point to law and order, point to crimes committed by a handful of "their people" against our generosity and ignore our international and humanitarian obligations.

I've said it many times before, we the people are having our democracy, our national resources stolen from us... all done legally and with perfect English by clean shaven well-dressed people in big mansions and jetsetters. And we the people either don't believe it, or are too afraid to do anything about it... and instead turn against the poor and the needy and blame them for ruining our country and taking our jobs.

To turn our back on refugees is to turn our back on victims of war. In wanting to build walls or turn back the boats without asking because "we know" they're economic parasites or potential terrorists, we not only sold our soul, we're giving our gov't permission to wage war and destroy lives on our behalf for "our security". 

Didn't we in the West turn back the Jewish refugees during WW2? What happen to those that were turned back?


History is not something that's in the past. We're living it.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 April 2016)

How cynical is this ?


About 90 asylum seeker children in Australia to be returned to Nauru, Peter Dutton confirms






*Immigration Minister Peter Dutton has confirmed dozens of children will be returned to Nauru, one day after announcing there were no children in mainland detention.*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...e-returned-to-nauru-peter-dutton-says/7297320
--


----------



## Tisme (5 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> How cynical is this ?
> 
> 
> About 90 asylum seeker children in Australia to be returned to Nauru, Peter Dutton confirms
> ...




I think he hailed it as a great day. History will label him appropriately


----------



## drsmith (5 April 2016)

The greatest history lesson here is to compromise border security allowing people smugglers a trade and that's now largely reflected in Labor's spoken policy position. 

This is still being played out here in Europe. I would suggest however that ideologically, it's still a lesson Labor has failed to learn.


----------



## noco (5 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> I think he hailed it as a great day. History will label him appropriately




Under  Labor there was 8,469 children in onshore detention........90 is now peanuts in comparison.....Those who have been sent back to Nauru are with their dubious parents...Those kids parents may well be undesirable immigrants who most likely cannot be identified.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2016)

noco said:


> Under  Labor there was 8,469 children in onshore detention........90 is now peanuts in comparison.....Those who have been sent back to Nauru are with their dubious parents...Those kids parents may well be undesirable immigrants who most likely cannot be identified.




What's Labor got to do with the decisions the govt makes on the lives of 90 children? You want to start blaming Billy Hughes for Malcolm Turnbull's  lack of political nous?  

Where were you when all those 10 pound poms and their gang violent skinhead sons were invading Australia back in the day?


----------



## moXJO (6 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> What's Labor got to do with the decisions the govt makes on the lives of 90 children? You want to start blaming Billy Hughes for Malcolm Turnbull's  lack of political nous?
> 
> Where were you when all those 10 pound poms and their gang violent skinhead sons were invading Australia back in the day?




Because labor caused the problem in the first place. Rudd was stupid enough to dismantle what was in place. All those deaths under labor were because of that decision.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2016)

moXJO said:


> Because labor caused the problem in the first place. Rudd was stupid enough to dismantle what was in place. All those deaths under labor were because of that decision.





You are predicating the action on it being a desirable one. Ultimately it's the govt's decision and the fella who signed off on it. The previous govt was elected by the will of the people, so is this one.  50% of people don't necessarily agree with the proposition that things were done wrong.

Situations present themselves everyday and it's all well and good looking to blame someone, but that is not governing, it's abrogating responsibility and the reason this govt is on the nose = it doesn't know how to not be the opposition and throwing mud.....it's not my fault mummy


----------



## noco (6 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> You are predicating the action on it being a desirable one. Ultimately it's the govt's decision and the fella who signed off on it. The previous govt was elected by the will of the people, so is this one.  50% of people don't necessarily agree with the proposition that things were done wrong.
> 
> Situations present themselves everyday and it's all well and good looking to blame someone, but that is not governing, it's abrogating responsibility and the reason this govt is on the nose = it doesn't know how to not be the opposition and throwing mud.....it's not my fault mummy




There are some 40,000 illegals waiting in Indonesia right now hoping there will be a change of government back to Labor.
The invasion will start again if that happens and Labor will open the flood gates....More deaths at sea...more children in detention......More Muslim radicals.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2016)

noco said:


> There are some 40,000 illegals waiting in Indonesia right now hoping there will be a change of government back to Labor.
> The invasion will start again if that happens and Labor will open the flood gates....More deaths at sea...more children in detention......More Muslim radicals.




Perhaps it will and they will be accountable as a result.  If that is what the voters want via the ballot box that is what we will get. It's not my cup of tea, but nor is dispassionate cruelty.

The Catholics tried to blow up the House of Lords with gunpowder, but we still let them in, even be half arsed Prime Minister and immigration minister on the few occasions .


----------



## sptrawler (6 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Perhaps it will and they will be accountable as a result.  If that is what the voters want via the ballot box that is what we will get. It's not my cup of tea, but nor is dispassionate cruelty.
> 
> The Catholics tried to blow up the House of Lords with gunpowder, but we still let them in, even be half arsed Prime Minister and immigration minister on the few occasions .




I agree with you, the voters will get what they want, but it may not be what they expect.

Labor will open the doors and there is nothing wrong with that per say, however a population of 50million may not be the elixir that they expect.

The increase in population regardless of skills, may end up in a race to the 3rd world economy, rather than a shot in the arm for service industries.
Labor IMO seems to have this mantra, of bring them in and the economy will grow to support them. I'm of the belief the economy will collapse under the increased welfare burden.

Just increasing our market size via population growth, doesn't in itself increase our viability as a first world economy, unless there is a corresponding increase in intellectual asset and productivity.
If not we will just keep borrowing more money to support our welfare systems.

I guess we won't get any sensible debate on welfare affordability, until ex public servants and politicians pensions are affected, then Labor will really take it on board.imo


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2016)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you, the voters will get what they want, but it may not be what they expect.
> 
> Labor will open the doors and there is nothing wrong with that per say, however a population of 50million may not be the elixir that they expect.
> 
> ...




Welcome back Homer.

When did voters ever get what they want?

Most voters are poor, looks to be getting poorer. Don't think voters wanted to be in that position but it "just happen".


----------



## sptrawler (6 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Welcome back Homer.
> 
> When did voters ever get what they want?
> 
> Most voters are poor, looks to be getting poorer. Don't think voters wanted to be in that position but it "just happen".




Like I said, they get what they want , but it might not be what they expect.

The media pushed for Abbott to be rolled, because he wasn't receptive to them, the public opinion polls supported this, now we have Turnbull.

Turnbull now finds himself with the same problem Abbott had, all the facts regarding tax and welfare, and none of them palatable.

So the media now want Shorten and Labor, just have to convince Joe Average.

The roller coater will only stop, when someone calls it as it is and stops pandering to the press. Hang on Hockey tried that and it blew up in his face.

Best we just let everything reach rock bottom, then get a bit of desire and hunger back into the equation.

It's funny really, if we hadn't allowed this massive capital expenditure on increasing raw material extraction, would some other country like Brazil or Argentina now have the problem instead of us?


----------



## noco (6 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Perhaps it will and they will be accountable as a result.  If that is what the voters want via the ballot box that is what we will get. It's not my cup of tea, but nor is dispassionate cruelty.
> 
> The Catholics tried to blow up the House of Lords with gunpowder, but we still let them in, even be half arsed Prime Minister and immigration minister on the few occasions .




Most voters are very selfish and only think of there hip pockets rather than a flood of illegals.


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said, they get what they want , but it might not be what they expect.
> 
> The media pushed for Abbott to be rolled, because he wasn't receptive to them, the public opinion polls supported this, now we have Turnbull.
> 
> ...




Opps. Miss that 

Unless it's the Greens in power, Labor or Liberal pretty much have the same agendas - just one like to beat up Unions more loudly than the other... that and ... naaa, I actually prefer Labor a bit more than Liberals... But I vote for none of them so the love ain't really there.


----------



## drsmith (14 April 2016)

The OSB monthly update for March shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...s/releases/monthly-operational-update-march-2


----------



## drsmith (21 April 2016)

The people smugglers are still trying,



> IMMIGRATION Minister Peter Dutton has revealed an asylum seeker boat from Sri Lanka was intercepted two days ago as a known people smuggler was jailed for ten years.
> 
> Mr Dutton said the Sri Lankan Navy reported it had stopped the Australian-bound vessel near the western coastal village of Negombo with six adults and three children on board.
> 
> “The Sri Lankan Navy intercepted that boat, turned it around and took them back to shore,” the ABC reported.




http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...s/news-story/c4aaa85ea48a54b8c309eab9b3739e30


----------



## drsmith (26 April 2016)

Papua New Guinea's Supreme Court has ruled Australia's detention of asylum seekers on Manus Island is illegal.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...seeker-detention-manus-island-illegal/7360078

It hasn't taken long for the child senator to offer her predictable response,



> Senator Hanson-Young tweeted her response to the ruling shortly after 3.30pm, saying "the PNG Supreme Court has ruled that the Manus Island Detention Camp is ILLEGAL".
> 
> "Time to bring those left there to Australia to be cared for," she said.


----------



## luutzu (26 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> Papua New Guinea's Supreme Court has ruled Australia's detention of asylum seekers on Manus Island is illegal.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...seeker-detention-manus-island-illegal/7360078
> 
> It hasn't taken long for the child senator to offer her predictable response,




Time to open up that Foreign Aid coffer and make some use of it.


----------



## drsmith (26 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Time to open up that Foreign Aid coffer and make some use of it.



More likely a redistribution of existing aid if it goes down that path.

Thank goodness there's not Kevin Rudd's 10,000 there.


----------



## drsmith (26 April 2016)

Peter Dutton's response,



> But Immigration Minister Peter Dutton says no detainees will be resettled in Australia.
> 
> In a statement, Mr Dutton said the ruling would not alter Australia's border protection policies.
> 
> ...




Labor,



> Mr Dutton said the agreement with PNG to establish the Manus Island centre was negotiated by the Labor government, but Labor's immigration spokesman Richard Marles told the ABC former prime minister Julia Gillard had only signed a 12 month contract.
> 
> Mr Marles said Mr Dutton needed to travel to PNG to sort out the issue as soon as tomorrow.
> 
> ...



12 months is yet another demonstration of the short sightedness of the Gillard government on its measures and Richard Marles in his response above is forgetting something,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIapYIBRZIs

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-...ntre-to-be-expanded-under-rudd27s-asy/4830778


----------



## orr (27 April 2016)

The steady drum beat of illegality of Australia's offshore detention gulags booms on. PNG's decision is the latest to resound. 
Should Australia fix this international inhumane  smear on our modern day politic or continue to pay billions to advertise our salute  to Authoritarian despotic dictatorships and their inglorious memory.
No one can work in these holes of despair without damaging their psychology.


----------



## Tisme (27 April 2016)

drsmith said:


>





The only minor things that Kevin and the LNP have left out of the equation on why the public were fedup with illegal boat entries = xenophobia and religism ....... an Australian tradition that predates George Augustus Robinson and his Southern Island solution.


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2016)

orr said:


> Should Australia fix this international inhumane  smear on our modern day politic or continue to pay billions to advertise our salute  to Authoritarian despotic dictatorships and their inglorious memory.
> No one can work in these holes of despair without damaging their psychology.



What do you suggest is the alternative ?

The loss of control of our borders that happened under Labor with the illegal people smuggling trade flourishing and the deaths at sea ?

Don't forget that the issues we are dealing with today are the legacy of the above policy failure from Labor's time in government. They took something that was fixed and broke it.


----------



## wayneL (27 April 2016)

Lets split Australia in half, let the leftist cultural vandals have their unlimited illegal immigration in their half, in our half immigration  to the extent we see fit... Give it twenty years and see how it turnes out


----------



## luutzu (27 April 2016)

wayneL said:


> Lets split Australia in half, let the leftist cultural vandals have their unlimited illegal immigration in their half, in our half immigration  to the extent we see fit... Give it twenty years and see how it turnes out




Don't you guys already have a quarter of Australia already?  QLD not big enough?


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2016)

wayneL said:


> Lets split Australia in half, let the leftist cultural vandals have their unlimited illegal immigration in their half, in our half immigration  to the extent we see fit... Give it twenty years and see how it turnes out



The problem with that is that we all know which half would ultimately be expected to pay for the social excesses.

Meanwhile,



> Mr O'Neill has now released a statement said that his government "will immediately ask the Australian Government to make alternative arrangements for the asylum seekers".




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/png-pm-oneill-to-shut-manus-island-detention-centre/7364414

The asylum seekers currently on Manus aren't interested in a 3'rd party country for resettlement, only Australia (ABC news).


----------



## banco (27 April 2016)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/refugee-sets-himself-on-fire-in-nauru-protest/7363530


We should just set all of the PNG detainees on fire and put the videos up on youtube like ISIS does. It would increase deterrence (which is the whole point of sending them to PNG and Nauru right?).


----------



## Tisme (27 April 2016)

banco said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/refugee-sets-himself-on-fire-in-nauru-protest/7363530
> 
> 
> We should just set all of the PNG detainees on fire and put the videos up on youtube like ISIS does. It would increase deterrence (which is the whole point of sending them to PNG and Nauru right?).




I think there's a concern they might drown on the way over here, thus Dutton's stand. The last thing he wants is people profiting out of the misery of refugees which is why we don't pay Transfield anything but direct costs and the PNG government only peppercorn rental of land.

I wonder how much Transfields donated to politics last year?


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> I think there's a concern they might drown on the way over here, thus Dutton's stand. The last thing he wants is people profiting out of the misery of refugees which is why we don't pay Transfield anything but direct costs and the PNG government only peppercorn rental of land.
> 
> I wonder how much Transfields donated to politics last year?



Anything yet that makes in on your prevention index ?


----------



## Tisme (27 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> Anything yet that makes in on your prevention index ?





Nup ... your question presupposes I share your entrenched hate values.  I'll leave it up to the paid public service and politicians to come up with another patently cruel and illegal policy. As far as I'm concerned we have a sovereign right to keep undesirables out, but electioneering and points scoring has blurred that, with both sides culpable.

When I think how poor old Arthur Caldwell became the personified mirror of the majority white Oz back in the day ...... he ended up owning the feigned shame of the nation and we've managed to pass it on ever since. Some knucklehead decided that a bunch of relics would fit in nicely to a new world nation and here we are wondering who to blame.... I blame Bill Shorten


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Nup ... your question presupposes I share your entrenched hate values.



I didn't expect you to have an answer to your own point but I'm also surprised to see you slip off that hollow moral pedestal with a personal slur.


----------



## banco (27 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> I didn't expect you to have an answer to your own point but I'm also surprised to see you slip off that hollow moral pedestal with a personal slur.




We know its those who died at sea that keeps you up at night and keeps you fighting for stronger borders.


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2016)

banco said:


> We know its those who died at sea that keeps you up at night and keeps you fighting for stronger borders.



One thing I don't stay awake for is for any tangible alternatives from the serial critics of the government's border security policies.


----------



## Tisme (27 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> I didn't expect you to have an answer to your own point but I'm also surprised to see you slip off that hollow moral pedestal with a personal slur.




More like self deprecation..... you really don't figure in the eqtn as all that important, so no slur intended... you are entitled to your own perversity as am I. Not sure where you get the idea i have morals to require a pedestal.


----------



## drsmith (27 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Not sure where you get the idea i have morals to require a pedestal.



You repeatedly critique and push the human suffering line in that critique without offering an alternative. 

What's your alternative ?



Tisme said:


> *As far as I'm concerned we have a sovereign right to keep undesirables out*, but electioneering and points scoring has blurred that, with both sides culpable.



I won't describe anyone as undesirable as you have in your post above but rather repeat the above question from it as follows, 

How would you exercise our sovereign right in relation to border protection ?


----------



## sptrawler (27 April 2016)

banco said:


> We know its those who died at sea that keeps you up at night and keeps you fighting for stronger borders.




I thought it was just a right to know the identity of someone coming into the Country, that requires strong borders?

Much like why we check what food and vegetable matter people are bring in, to protect our agricultural products.

What do you think? just open up the borders to all and sundry?


----------



## moXJO (27 April 2016)

sptrawler said:


> What do you think? just open up the borders to all and sundry?




They don't have answers... just moral outrage.
It's like the whole labor debacle has been swept under the carpet.


----------



## luutzu (27 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> You repeatedly critique and push the human suffering line in that critique without offering an alternative.
> 
> What's your alternative ?
> 
> ...




How about we try this:

People, for some reason, got on a boat, cross a few seas, risk life and death to come knocking on our door.

We answer the knock. Ask that they sit in some fenced off area while we check their claims against our international obligations, our charity, our duty as a human being (maybe)...

Then if they fail to meet the conditions we have signed and obligated under; if theyy were neither oppressed or face danger if returned... we send them home. Otherwise, we either welcome them, give them a chance in life here on our soil.. or give some other country a call if we're too poor or too strap for cash to help.

That kind of solution I can come up with in two minutes. Costs us much much less than what we're paying Transfield or whatever name they've changed to now... and maybe in the not too distant future it serves our national interests to, one, not upset the neighbours; two, show the kids we're not total a holes and that they ought to care for others and not just themselves; three, people facing death but are saved; people with nothing but are given an opportunity; people with poverty stricken family and relatives back home... they tend to work harder, law abiding, and generally grateful and obligated people who will love the country, know its value and will defend it.

That or we tow them back, or if too late because they came too close so towed offshore camp somewhere... and make them living examples of our ballz and serious toughness to defend our borders and sovereignty from starving, sea-sick people cramped on leaky boats. So take that would-be invaders! 

----

You know how Australia export coal and have this love of fossil fuel and meehhh attitude towards Climate Change? It's making us billions right?

Guess what happen when sea level rises by a few metres?

Dutton can crack his joke again... then there's some tens of millions of Indonesians just up north of us with livelihood flooded and island home destroyed... Guess where they'll go first. Not bloody Europe.


----------



## sptrawler (27 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> How about we try this:
> 
> People, for some reason, got on a boat, cross a few seas, risk life and death to come knocking on our door.
> 
> ...




I think that's how it would be, if they came with documentation.

Actually you probably would even be a bit easier on the lack of documentation, if asylum seekers weren't blowing people up all over the world, where they seek refuge.

It just takes a few radicals, to spoil it for genuine people.


----------



## Tisme (28 April 2016)

sptrawler said:


> I thought it was just a right to know the identity of someone coming into the Country, that requires strong borders?
> 
> Much like why we check what food and vegetable matter people are bring in, to protect our agricultural products.
> 
> What do you think? just open up the borders to all and sundry?




Just like we check people at airports as they enter, obviously so should boat people.

One of the things that we don't seem to consider is how the same calibre people sitting in concentration camps appear to be in their many thousands already resident here and enjoying our welfare handouts and legal services.....when did that happen and who was guarding the gate for that to happen?


----------



## Tisme (28 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> You repeatedly critique and push the human suffering line in that critique without offering an alternative.
> 
> What's your alternative ?
> 
> ...




Yeah, but the real truth of your pestering is to have some sport with me and then you get all bent out of shape when you don't get the subordinate reaction you are looking for ...

In the off chance you really do want to engage in non partisan discussion:

IMO the current policy plays on the fear of our citizens that we have barbarians at the gate and that hysteria has been manufactured by the new right that is an imposter of the original Liberal Party. 

That is not to say that relaxation of border protection is warranted, just that the whole thing has been politicised for votes..... we just don't know the truth with kneejerk Labor bookended with arrogant LNP one side and bleeding heart Greens the other .... it's not a well arranged bookshelf.

While the parties play wedge games, the already resident fifth column is enjoying its immunity from scrutiny and building its sectarian neighbourhoods that have become beacons for believers around the globe. We are simply not addressing the bait that is attracting the people in the first place. The naivety that our lifestyle and standard of living is the reason for the migration shows how arrogant we are in thinking primitive cultures actually value us.

My stage 1 solution is to first cut off the Gorgan's head, then see if the numbers drop; clean up our backyard as it were, instead of standing on the beach and shouting hooray as the invader is turned around at great cost, not only financial, but also in cultural divide within our community.


----------



## orr (28 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> That kind of solution I can come up with in two minutes. Costs us much much less than what we're paying Transfield or whatever name they've changed to now... and maybe in the not too distant future it serves our national interests to, one, not upset the neighbours; two, show the kids we're not total a holes and that they ought to care for others and not just themselves; three, people facing death but are saved; people with nothing but are given an opportunity; people with poverty stricken family and relatives back home... they tend to work harder, law abiding, and generally grateful and obligated people who will love the country, know its value and will defend it.
> 
> That or we tow them back, or if too late because they came too close so towed offshore camp somewhere... and make them living examples of our ballz and serious toughness to defend our borders and sovereignty from starving, sea-sick people cramped on leaky boats. So take that would-be invaders!
> 
> ----




I'll add to this a thing called the Law... Which Australia is in breach of...
And remind me what is the dollar figure, to the nearest ten thousand, to keep each of these people in the gulags.

A question. 'The Iraq illegal invasion was led by the left wing flower power brigade? please point me to the evidence of this. (reasonable people all over the world marched to no effect against the fevered minds of Bush and Blair)... I thought it was Right wing imperialist over reach. And where are a good percentage of the displaced of the world now coming from?




luutzu said:


> Guess what happen when sea level rises by a few metres?




Shanghai goes under.

There's no doubt a few that will join you in the Ayn Randian fantasy world at the end of the rainbow Wayne. But try to keep in mind the fact that Rand died on welfare in a quarsi commune.
For reality you could read up on Dickensian England. 
 as a note. When, the progressive, Bismarck introduced the old age retirement pension at 65yrs. average life extectency was 60. sell that to your disciples.


----------



## moXJO (28 April 2016)

The cost per detainee now, compared to the 50000 that flooded in would not be in the same ballpark.
Do we fail to take into account that we take in refugees and have increased numbers?

How's Europe doing with their walk in policy?


----------



## noco (28 April 2016)

moXJO said:


> The cost per detainee now, compared to the 50000 that flooded in would not be in the same ballpark.
> Do we fail to take into account that we take in refugees and have increased numbers?
> 
> How's Europe doing with their walk in policy?




I would like to know how many of those 50,000 are gainfully employed and how many are still living off the Australian tax payer....the bludgers.

If they were in Russia they would be sent to work in the salt mines.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

noco said:


> I would like to know how many of those 50,000 are gainfully employed and how many are still living off the Australian tax payer....the bludgers.
> 
> If they were in Russia they would be sent to work in the salt mines.




That's actually a fair point.

I see no problem with using refugee labour on public projects if there are no other applicants for the jobs.

If they want to work, we let them stay, if not, back to wherever.


----------



## drsmith (28 April 2016)

I see from the above we have two potential solutions,



luutzu said:


> People, for some reason, got on a boat, cross a few seas, risk life and death to come knocking on our door.
> 
> We answer the knock. Ask that they sit in some fenced off area while we check their claims against our international obligations, our charity, our duty as a human being (maybe)...
> 
> ...






Tisme said:


> My stage 1 solution is to first cut off the Gorgan's head, then see if the numbers drop; clean up our backyard as it were, instead of standing on the beach and shouting hooray as the invader is turned around at great cost, not only financial, but also in cultural divide within our community.



The first was the kind of idealistic thinking Labor had when they last came to office and we saw the results. 

I'm not sure what the second is other than further avoidance of the question with an obscure mythical historical reference and further criticism of current policy.


----------



## Ves (28 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> What's your alternative ?



Just A Modest Proposal, really.

But I think Jonathan Swift was onto something...  in fact,  in Australia's case the processing facilities have already been put in place and there are, evidently, from the lively discussion in here,  well stocked up in advance.  All it would take is some imagination to re-mould the idea for our modern circumstances.  Efficient and economical. 

In fact,  call it irony,  but this whole debacle, could really open up new markets for Australia's dying export industry.

That's certain to appease the Business Council of Australia and pretty much anyone else who would stand in the way of such a sensible policy. The prime minister of the time may even be able to sneak in a few cuts (oh dear) to middle age welfare, by using some of the finished product, as ahem, a sweetener, free of charge.


----------



## drsmith (28 April 2016)

On matters current, it appears the government has been caught on the hop regarding the PNG court ruling and the subsequent government decision regarding Manus.

Peter Dutton was only ever installed as immigration minister I suspect because government felt border protection  was effectively reduced to a caretaker role with the boats stopped. At the moment however, the role demands somewhat more.


----------



## drsmith (28 April 2016)

Ves said:


> Just A Modest Proposal, really.
> 
> But I think Jonathan Swift was onto something....



That too reads like another criticism of current policy without offering a practical alternative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal


----------



## Ves (28 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> That too reads like another criticism of current policy without offering a practical alternative.



Does it?   I should have added a disclaimer:  Sense of humour required.


----------



## drsmith (28 April 2016)

Ves said:


> Does it?   I should have added a disclaimer:  Sense of humour required.



Sense of humour noted.


----------



## drsmith (28 April 2016)

Could the plan be to do a deal with the UNHCR ?



> Mr Dutton is in Geneva where he will meet with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Filippo Grandi.
> 
> The issue of Syrian refugees is expected to dominate discussions and Mr Dutton told the ABC it was possible Australia could increase its intake ”” currently at 12,000 ”” in the future.




With the boats stopped, we're perhaps in a position where we can.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-30/manus-island-asylum-seekers,-refugees-on-the-move/7284960


----------



## noco (28 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> Could the plan be to do a deal with the UNHCR ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes Doc...so long as they can speak English, have a trade back ground, prepared to work and not over religious.


----------



## drsmith (28 April 2016)

It didn't take long for cracks to emerge in Labor's ranks.



> A damaging split has opened in federal Labor over asylum seeker policy, with four MPs in the party's Left faction breaking ranks and calling for the 900 asylum seekers on Manus Island to be processed onshore and settled in Australia.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...lits-over-asylum-seekers-20160428-gogw6u.html


----------



## noco (28 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> It didn't take long for cracks to emerge in Labor's ranks.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...lits-over-asylum-seekers-20160428-gogw6u.html




I would not be surprised if those 4 Labor MPs together with is SHY stirred up the PNG Government and the UN.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> It didn't take long for cracks to emerge in Labor's ranks.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...lits-over-asylum-seekers-20160428-gogw6u.html




4 MP's.

Big deal.


----------



## luutzu (28 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> I see from the above we have two potential solutions,
> 
> The first was the kind of idealistic thinking Labor had when they last came to office and we saw the results.
> 
> I'm not sure what the second is other than further avoidance of the question with an obscure mythical historical reference and further criticism of current policy.




It's always surprising to see how often the poor and the weak are being blame for the ills of the world.

One would have thought that if the poor were the ones stealing from the country or the people, they'd be a lot richer. Maybe the reason they're so poor and desperate is due to people stealing and taking advantage of them. Stole their opportunities for education; not paying them enough for the work they do; cheat them out of their land and home... nope, you poor because you lazy.


----------



## luutzu (28 April 2016)

sptrawler said:


> I think that's how it would be, if they came with documentation.
> 
> Actually you probably would even be a bit easier on the lack of documentation, if asylum seekers weren't blowing people up all over the world, where they seek refuge.
> 
> It just takes a few radicals, to spoil it for genuine people.




In law, apparently, if border patrol hear that the illegal is seeking asylum, they will have to be taken in and have their claim heard. A country cannot turn asylum seekers around because they "illegally enter the border". That's why our smart lawyers in Canberra order border patrol to not ask, and probably not hear either. 

Refugees aren't terrorists. They're running away from terrorists.

That's not to say they're all saints and all of them are law abiding.. They're people, and no group of people are all "good". 

True that we don't have help anyone. It's a tough world and we ourselves are not getting any richer etc.

But as Chomsky and Zinn will tell you, these are the kind of policies the Masters of Man dream about: That the people, united will never be defeated (stolen from some union)... So let's divide them.


----------



## luutzu (28 April 2016)

orr said:


> I'll add to this a thing called the Law... Which Australia is in breach of...
> And remind me what is the dollar figure, to the nearest ten thousand, to keep each of these people in the gulags.
> 
> A question. 'The Iraq illegal invasion was led by the left wing flower power brigade? please point me to the evidence of this. (reasonable people all over the world marched to no effect against the fevered minds of Bush and Blair)... I thought it was Right wing imperialist over reach. And where are a good percentage of the displaced of the world now coming from?
> ...




Did you just wake up and write that orr?

Coffee and breakfast are the most important meals of the day


----------



## noco (28 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> In law, apparently, if border patrol hear that the illegal is seeking asylum, they will have to be taken in and have their claim heard. A country cannot turn asylum seekers around because they "illegally enter the border". That's why our smart lawyers in Canberra order border patrol to not ask, and probably not hear either.
> 
> Refugees aren't terrorists. They're running away from terrorists.
> 
> ...




But if we allow those 900 refugees to come to Australia and they are given jobs, won't the unions being screaming from the roof tops that we have allowed foreign workers to take their jobs or will the unions turn a blind eye?


----------



## luutzu (28 April 2016)

noco said:


> But if we allow those 900 refugees to come to Australia and they are given jobs, won't the unions being screaming from the roof tops that we have allowed foreign workers to take their jobs or will the unions turn a blind eye?




No, the jobs the refugees will work at will be cash on hand, tax free and union free.

But they will create 900 new places for English as a Second Language teachers. The ATO can tax the teachers for the additional income.

Then there will be benefits to retailers and also small tiny sole trader who need a cheap labour willing to work hard for $50 or $100 a day (i've seen this, recently too). The Australian could get a cheaper price on that reno, ATO can tax the sole trader a bit more.


----------



## noco (28 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> No, the jobs the refugees will work at will be cash on hand, tax free and union free.
> 
> But they will create 900 new places for English as a Second Language teachers. The ATO can tax the teachers for the additional income.
> 
> Then there will be benefits to retailers and also small tiny sole trader who need a cheap labour willing to work hard for $50 or $100 a day (i've seen this, recently too). The Australian could get a cheaper price on that reno, ATO can tax the sole trader a bit more.




What a great idea.


----------



## luutzu (28 April 2016)

noco said:


> What a great idea.




Gotta use those emojis for sarcasm noco. I can't tell otherwise 

Well it beats having to pay Broadspectrum (Transfields) a couple bucks, a couple more in under the table cash to more than a few foreign gov't officials, and the occasional trauma Counselor and surgeon for the treatable but delayed medical care resulting in death, that and the occasional hunger strikes, self harm... and setting themself on fire.

Anyway, I thought it's an Aussie thing to beat up the big dogs and tall poppies. Leave the beating up of refugees and illegals to the Americans and Europeans shall we.


----------



## Tisme (29 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> I see from the above we have two potential solutions,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I see by your response you have tunnel vision with the LNP at the end of it. Why not just reply to all threads "whatever the LNP do I agree with" , hang up your pinny,  then have a Bex and laydown to sooth the congenital discomfort


----------



## Tisme (29 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Gotta use those emojis for sarcasm noco. I can't tell otherwise
> 
> Well it beats having to pay Broadspectrum (Transfields) a couple bucks, .




You do know that Transfields was a company set up by an Italian with subsequent strong ties to the Vatican? He ticked all the boxes for the recent new political power behind the LNP and ALP = diehard  Roman Catholics. Jobs for the boys doesn't stop at the gates on the wharves.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2016)

If you want alternatives mine would be:

1. Uninvited arrivals (UAs) are processed onshore and get Temporary Protection Visas only and will never be eligible  for citizenship. Same applies to their children born here.

2. those UAs not found to be genuine refugees are locked up permanently untill they decide to return to their country of origin or another country takes them.

3. UAs who are genuine refugees are released and can work (and may be required to do so in return for benefits).

4. UAs are returned to their country of origin when it's determined safe to do so.


----------



## luutzu (29 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> You do know that Transfields was a company set up by an Italian with subsequent strong ties to the Vatican? He ticked all the boxes for the recent new political power behind the LNP and ALP = diehard  Roman Catholics. Jobs for the boys doesn't stop at the gates on the wharves.




It's always the Catholics, isn't it? 

Gangs of New York; Northern Ireland; Italian Mafia... LNP.


----------



## drsmith (29 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> I see by your response you have tunnel vision with the LNP at the end of it. Why not just reply to all threads "whatever the LNP do I agree with" , hang up your pinny,  then have a Bex and laydown to sooth the congenital discomfort



You can offer as much personal reflection on me as you like.

It does not constitute an answer.


----------



## luutzu (29 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> You can offer as much personal reflection on me as you like.
> 
> It does not constitute an answer.




You make it sound like "turn back the boat" and offshore gulag is some kind of an answer Doc. Are they?

Why did the Hebrew flee Egypt? Or the Jew flee Europe? Or the Irish and their potato famine? The Chinese from China every new dynasty; the Viets from their comrades...

What were the solutions that stop those illegal activities?


Who knows, maybe people are running from their dictators, from the crazy warlords and terrorists, running from the carpet bombing and constant drone presence and a tomahawk here and there now and then. Some may even run because the drought and non-existence climate change just kill all their crops and they kind of have family to feed.

Maybe trying to stop the "rationale" for their fleeing might help stem the invasion. What, we got nothing to do with it now?


----------



## drsmith (29 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> You make it sound like "turn back the boat" and offshore gulag is some kind of an answer Doc. Are they?



The reasons you and other serial critics of the current government's policies struggle to offer a solution is that you conflate the movement of asylum seekers with broader social objectives. 

A simple solution for example is for a deal between Australia and the UNHCR to take responsibility for those on Manus for a number of refugees to be accepted by Australia from the UNHCR. That closes Manus without encouraging the people smuggling trade.

Unfortunately, the UNHCR also seeks broader social objectives in the movement of asylum seekers with the human misery that results from illegal people smuggling an acceptable cost of achieving those objectives.


----------



## luutzu (29 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> The reasons you and other serial critics of the current government's policies struggle to offer a solution is that you conflate the movement of asylum seekers with broader social objectives.
> 
> A simple solution for example is for a deal between Australia and the UNHCR to take responsibility for those on Manus for a number of refugees to be accepted by Australia from the UNHCR. That closes Manus without encouraging the people smuggling trade.
> 
> Unfortunately, the UNHCR also seeks broader social objectives in the movement of asylum seekers with the human misery that results from illegal people smuggling an acceptable cost of achieving those objectives.




What we may fail to realise is that the people smugglers are not disheartened and discouraged if we do not accept refugees/illegals.

Are we serious that these people are honest dealers? They'd say to desperate people, ey... don't pay me money and go to Australia brother... they're nasty over there and you'll just be returned if you don't drown on your way. And if you make it, they'll imprison you to a much smaller island where there's no paradise.

I saw news doco where refugees on the Mediterranean said how the smugglers told them it's fine to be on a flimsy raft because the other coast is only 8 hours away etc. etc.

And these farkers have no issue with sending people to wherever as long as the cash are handed over. If it mean being rescued by some lefty or drown or suffocate... meehhh.

So if we're serious about stopping the boats and ending illegal smuggler's business, try to do something about people not having to risk at lives and flee. 

Stopping wars is a very good start.


----------



## noco (29 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> What we may fail to realise is that the people smugglers are not disheartened and discouraged if we do not accept refugees/illegals.
> 
> Are we serious that these people are honest dealers? They'd say to desperate people, ey... don't pay me money and go to Australia brother... they're nasty over there and you'll just be returned if you don't drown on your way. And if you make it, they'll imprison you to a much smaller island where there's no paradise.
> 
> ...




And how do you stop wars?

That was supposed to be the job of the useless UN .....THE TOOTHLESS TIGER...What have they done in the past 60 years?

There will always be wars....  religion and ethnics are the main causes....There will always be greed and jealousy.

Islamic.....Communism.....socialism....capitalism.....religion...they will always clash.

One will try to force their ideology on the others and that is when the trouble begins......Like if you don't go my way I will chop off your head......If you chop off the head of one of fellow men I will bomb the $hit out of you.


----------



## banco (29 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> The reasons you and other serial critics of the current government's policies struggle to offer a solution is that you conflate the movement of asylum seekers with broader social objectives.
> 
> A simple solution for example is for a deal between Australia and the UNHCR to take responsibility for those on Manus for a number of refugees to be accepted by Australia from the UNHCR. That closes Manus without encouraging the people smuggling trade.
> 
> Unfortunately, the UNHCR also seeks broader social objectives in the movement of asylum seekers with the human misery that results from illegal people smuggling an acceptable cost of achieving those objectives.




Who are you kidding? As if you care about the "human misery that results from illegal people  smuggling". You care about them not reaching Australia.


----------



## noco (29 April 2016)

banco said:


> Who are you kidding? As if you care about the "human misery that results from illegal people  smuggling". You care about them not reaching Australia.




If you are so concerned about human misery, how many illegals are you prepared to take into your house hold?

Why don't you put your hand up and sponsor a couple of those fellows from Manus ?


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2016)

noco said:


> And how do you stop wars?
> 
> That was supposed to be the job of the useless UN .....THE TOOTHLESS TIGER...What have they done in the past 60 years?
> 
> ...




Think outside the box noco.

Like I said above, somewhere, current statecraft are based on ancient, and not so ancient, practise of having the biggest stick and use it to beat the living crap out of those that don't have one. Then take their stuff.

There are other ways to both make money, be safe, and both parties win. It's call Free Trade - until they turn it into a dirty word to represent exploitation and slavery (to a higher or lesser degree, depends on locality).

Or take Climate Change and investment into alternative sources of clean and renewable energy... Yes there are some token investment into alternative, but given the storm we're heading into... we're not in that much of a hurry to avoid it. Instead we rush headlong into it.

Take a guess at how many more hundreds of million of people will die from drought, lack of food and water, lack of shelter and healthcare... how many more hundreds of billions the richer countries will have to spend to re-engineer their infrastructure, safeguard their borders, secure water supplies etc. etc.

Anyway... it's a dream right? We've tried just the barbarians and their religion doesn't want peace. Yea, that's a new thing to say.


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2016)

noco said:


> If you are so concerned about human misery, how many illegals are you prepared to take into your house hold?
> 
> Why don't you put your hand up and sponsor a couple of those fellows from Manus ?




Why does anyone have to take refugees into their own home to show they're decent human being?

What the heck are our taxes for? Why do we elect representatives for?

Maybe put some of them tax dollars towards what we the people want. Too much to ask?


What is it with politicians, and some citizens, thinking that it's our job to pay them our earnings... but it's not their job to spend any of those earnings on what we want? 

Safe and well equiped schools for your kids? Dream on... can't afford it. If you want it, go private.

anyway...


----------



## Tink (30 April 2016)

Off topic -- 

Maybe if they zoned in on teaching children how to read and write, rather than all their other 'waste of money' rubbish programs, then the parents wouldn't be leaving in droves for the private system.

_Chaos in Australian Education._

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25851&page=6&p=903407#post903407


----------



## noco (30 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Why does anyone have to take refugees into their own home to show they're decent human being?
> 
> What the heck are our taxes for? Why do we elect representatives for?
> 
> ...





The Labor Government under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd wasted $11 billion by allowing  illegals to enter our country and we are still counting the cost 3 years on........How many schools and hospitals could have been built with the $11billion +? How much less interest would we now be paying?

And don't talk about the waste on pink bats and overpriced school halls.

You say what the heck are our taxes for??.......We elect politicians to handle our taxes and manage the economy with care and diligence and not go wasting it like occurred in 2007/2013 and please don't use the excuse of the GFC.

It was because you complained about the government not doing enough about human misery in detention camps that I suggested you show some sympathy and set an example amongst your leftist buddies by  sponsoring one or two...take them into your house and show some good spirit......If you all got together you might even shame the government for not taking some action as you claim.


----------



## orr (30 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> The reasons you and other serial critics of the current government's policies struggle to offer a solution is that you conflate the movement of asylum seekers with broader social objectives.




I can't speak for others , my criticism stem from the political manipulation for advantage leading to the inhumane horror of these offshore illegal gulags at obscene cost.



drsmith said:


> A simple solution for example is for a deal between Australia and the UNHCR to take responsibility for those on Manus for a number of refugees to be accepted by Australia from the UNHCR. That closes Manus without encouraging the people smuggling trade.




How does that wash with the mantra of 'never on Australian soil'?



drsmith said:


> Unfortunately, the UNHCR also seeks broader social objectives in the movement of asylum seekers with the human misery that results from illegal people smuggling an acceptable cost of achieving those objectives.




What are the UNHCR's  ' broader social objectives '? and stick to those escaping persecution  .... this'll make for interesting reading.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2016)

orr said:


> What are the UNHCR's  ' broader social objectives '? and stick to those escaping persecution  .... this'll make for interesting reading.




Maybe the UNHCR or the UN in general wants to see a transfer of people from poor countries in general to richer countries whether they are being persecuted or not, economic refugeeism if you like.

Whether that is with the approval of the host countries or not is a different matter, but Australia has had a large migrant intake for some time and I suspect that most of those would have been from poorer countries.

We also have refugee resettlement programs (fairly large compared to our population), plus a generous foreign aid program, so I think we have a valid argument that we have already done our bit for the less well off and shouldn't have to deal with uninvited arrivals as well.


----------



## drsmith (30 April 2016)

orr said:


> I can't speak for others , my criticism stem from the political manipulation for advantage leading to the inhumane horror of these offshore illegal gulags at obscene cost.



If you think our current border protection policies is that rather than keeping our borders secure, what's your alternative to keep our borders secure ?


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2016)

noco said:


> The Labor Government under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd wasted $11 billion by allowing  illegals to enter our country and we are still counting the cost 3 years on........How many schools and hospitals could have been built with the $11billion +? How much less interest would we now be paying?
> 
> And don't talk about the waste on pink bats and overpriced school halls.
> 
> ...




Can you link to details of that $11 billion and counting figure?

Noco, pink batts and school halls would be what smart economists call stimulus. When the global economy was in meltdown, Australia being lucky enough to have some cash and the mines... such economic stimulus did actually create jobs. 

Yes it wasn't managed properly; there were safety oversight and loopholes... but proper economic management, particularly in time of economic recession/depression is to fund that public projects and works. It would be irresponsible, and counter-productive, to get into Austerity.

Look around the world where Austerity was imposed and see how their economy fare. Total disasters. Oh wait, that's due to Muslim illegals.

When gov't impose Austerity... the first few things that goes are senior pensions, healthcare, education and other public "waste". Follow this on with record low interest rate and those not rich enough to have stock portfolio or enough to buy property will see their savings earning practically nothing while borrowers (big corporations and rich investors) take it and get richer from it.

Add on top cuts in assistance and pensions; the jacking up of fees etc., and the economy either go nowhere or go broke. 

Then when it's near breaking, the bankers and investors who got the cash for next to nothing advise politicians to sell state assets just to keep the plebs from getting too upset they'd start a war.

Anyway, I still don't know why or how you still think these policies and words the politicians blabber on are honest good ideas because they care for the likes of you and me. Well, maybe you are loaded like them but ya, might be fighting for the wrong cause noco.


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe the UNHCR or the UN in general wants to see a transfer of people from poor countries in general to richer countries whether they are being persecuted or not, economic refugeeism if you like.
> 
> Whether that is with the approval of the host countries or not is a different matter, but Australia has had a large migrant intake for some time and I suspect that most of those would have been from poorer countries.
> 
> We also have refugee resettlement programs (fairly large compared to our population), plus a generous foreign aid program, so I think we have a valid argument that we have already done our bit for the less well off and shouldn't have to deal with uninvited arrivals as well.




You know the UN is just a farce right? Set up to either rubber stamp and give legitimacy to what the major powers want or be seen as irrelevant.

Now and then they can't be bought off by the big boys, like on Iraq II... but look what happen when they did that? Totally ignored and laughed at.


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> If you think our current border protection policies is that rather than keeping our borders secure, what's your alternative to keep our borders secure ?




If our borders aren't secure, these "illegals" wouldn't have been caught and there'd be a fullblown invasion already.

If not openly invading us, they'd just sneeked in and live among the slumps and ghettos.

Is that the case? No. 

So the borders are secured. 

You can't say the borders are not secure because illegals and refugees keep on coming to knock and ask if we'd help them out.

So all these "sovereign border" nonsense are designed to not secure the borders, but designed so that no uninvited guess come knocking so we'd have to wake up at night and check their credentials.

Let's remind ourselves that it is, under international law, not a crime for people to come to another country's border seeking asylum. They are not breaking any law by running away from the crazies of the world.


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2016)

Tink said:


> Off topic --
> 
> Maybe if they zoned in on teaching children how to read and write, rather than all their other 'waste of money' rubbish programs, then the parents wouldn't be leaving in droves for the private system.
> 
> ...




Why would you want kids to only learn how to read and write? Read what? Write about what?

Got to give them some art and science, some critical thinking and skills so they can write and read a bit more than mere repetition of official "facts" and history.

Seems a bit of a waste to only put that brain of ours towards learning one or two thing - and do it repeatedly over and over for a few cookies and milk.


----------



## drsmith (30 April 2016)

If a government of a nation is not in control of who enters and leaves that nation, the border is not secure. It's as simple as that.


----------



## banco (30 April 2016)

drsmith said:


> If a government of a nation is not in control of who enters and leaves that nation, the border is not secure. It's as simple as that.




Accepting your definition for the moment is there any lengths you wouldn't go to in order to keep the border secure. You clearly have no qualms about turning the lives those on Manus etc. into a living hell for example.


----------



## explod (30 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Why would you want kids to only learn how to read and write? Read what? Write about what?
> 
> Got to give them some art and science, some critical thinking and skills so they can write and read a bit more than mere repetition of official "facts" and history.
> 
> Seems a bit of a waste to only put that brain of ours towards learning one or two thing - and do it repeatedly over and over for a few cookies and milk.




Well said. 

And the earth belongs to all of us.   Our ancestors left the shores of Europe and thought nothing of taking over and occupying the lands of others.   So its just payback time and we should all feel obliged,  while we can to accomodate them.   If you think they are illegal,  remember the stealth of your forbears. 

In the next few years the populations are really going to overwhelm.   Instead of 80 billion on submarines what about populating the northern shores of Australia and setting it up so that they have to green it,  grow thier own food and protect themselves and our north.  They may have to eat a few wild camels,  horses,  camels and crocs for a start but I reckon it could make a good start whilst we think about the next move.


----------



## noco (30 April 2016)

luutzu said:


> Can you link to details of that $11 billion and counting figure?
> 
> Noco, pink batts and school halls would be what smart economists call stimulus. When the global economy was in meltdown, Australia being lucky enough to have some cash and the mines... such economic stimulus did actually create jobs.
> 
> ...




I trust this link will satisfy your thirst for information pertaining to the cost of maintaining illegal immigrants.


http://www.news.com.au/national/aus...ker-that-arrives/story-fncynjr2-1226655532914


----------



## noco (30 April 2016)

banco said:


> Accepting your definition for the moment is there any lengths you wouldn't go to in order to keep the border secure. You clearly have no qualms about turning the lives those on Manus etc. into a living hell for example.




What an exaggeration!!!!!!!.....The majority of those on Manus are economic refugees and have not escaped persecution that is why they throw away their passports and IDs.


----------



## luutzu (30 April 2016)

noco said:


> I trust this link will satisfy your thirst for information pertaining to the cost of maintaining illegal immigrants.
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/aus...ker-that-arrives/story-fncynjr2-1226655532914





I actually have to open an Excel up for this one. 

Let's assume all the figures given are fair and balance (ha ha, I like Murdoch, grade A a hole he is).

*Claim1: $1.5 billion spent on 22,500 refugees  *

*News Ltd.'s Maths:*
"And new break-down of costs this year show taxpayers have spent $1.5 billion maintaining the detention network amid record arrivals which are approaching 22,500 this financial year."

This $1.5B include:

$131M for welfare payment
$18M for housing and furnishing those houses
$278.31M to Red Cross for helping out ($603M over 26 months)
$75M to Salvation Army for welfare and support services
$8M to Save the Children fund

---
Totals = $510.31M.

Where's the other $1 billion?

---------

*Claim 2: "... more than 40,000 asylum seekers expected to be in Australia next financial year (2014?) *

Question:

Currently there's 22,500, who's expecting that to almost double in a year's time to 40,000? "Some people"?

Let's look at the fact, in hindsight too.




http://www.asrc.org.au/resources/statistics/detention-and-refugee-statistics/

Total seem to drop over time noco. 

Currently, in 2016, totals around 35,000. So almost 3 years early?

--------------


From same site, stats show that between 2009-2013, of all claims processed, 90.6% were granted protection (see pie charts).

That's a High Disctinction score... indicating that maybe the reason people pick up and leave their homeland for unknown seas... chances are 90.6% of them would be found to deserve protection.


----------



## noco (1 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> I actually have to open an Excel up for this one.
> 
> Let's assume all the figures given are fair and balance (ha ha, I like Murdoch, grade A a hole he is).
> 
> ...




$70,000 per person per year.

You are forgetting it was so slack under Labor and that is why a visa was so easy to get under Labor....Very poor checks made......All Labor wanted to do was get them out of detention centers because they had run out of room.


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

noco said:


> $70,000 per person per year.
> 
> You are forgetting it was so slack under Labor and that is why a visa was so easy to get under Labor....Very poor checks made......All Labor wanted to do was get them out of detention centers because they had run out of room.




From that article's figures, $149M were spent directly on 22,500 refugees. The other $351M or so indirectly to other organisations, with mandate to help the refugees. 

So direclty, they're getting around $6,600 each. Indirect help would be $510M/22500 = $22,700 each.

Don't know where the other $1Billion goes, but not towards them noco.


So you can argue why should we pay or spend anything on them anyway. Fair enough.

But think about it. It costs us around $25,000 per hour, that's per hour, to fly one of our fighter jets over Iraq. If we see some unfriendly looking Arabs, one or two missile gets drop and that could cost $1 million on top.

Should we save a life, and perhaps one day that life would repay us in living and contributing their live to the nation and humanity - and does it for $6,600 a year.... Or wisely spend $25,000 an hour jetting around looking for some target to hit.


Don't exactly need Solomon's wisdom for this one.


----------



## noco (1 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> From that article's figures, $149M were spent directly on 22,500 refugees. The other $351M or so indirectly to other organisations, with mandate to help the refugees.
> 
> So direclty, they're getting around $6,600 each. Indirect help would be $510M/22500 = $22,700 each.
> 
> ...




From what  I gather from  your info, you are mainly looking at the welfare side......Look outside the square at the cost of the naval expenses incurred....Look at the cost of running detention centers..This is where the cost of $70,000 per person per year comes into play.....One of the illegals get sick on Manus so they fly them to Brisbane for treatment at what cost?.....Something you are trying to avoid.

So are you saying let ISIL run riot in Iraq and other middle east countries with the murdering of innocent men women and children?...Let ISIL have s free reign?

Where are your priorities?


----------



## Tisme (1 May 2016)

Fact versus LNP and Xenophobes

I'm fairly sure this was written by Bill Shorten:

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...brary/pubs/BN/2012-2013/AustGovAssistRefugees


----------



## moXJO (1 May 2016)

Detaining a single asylum seeker on Manus or Nauru costs $400,000 per year. Detention in Australia costs $239,000 per year(Souce: National Commission of Audit).

It's cheaper onshore. But numbers are way down on arrivals compared to the labor fiasco. Are people here saying what happened under Rudd was sustainable, or even sensible?

For every refugee paying $5000-$20000 to get on a boat and after traveling through multiple safe countries,  there is a refugee stuck in a camp following the process and getting shafted.
We take in refugees. We always have. Flooding in refugees unchecked is not a good idea. Labor were floundering for a solution. You only need to look to Europe.


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

noco said:


> From what  I gather from  your info, you are mainly looking at the welfare side......Look outside the square at the cost of the naval expenses incurred....Look at the cost of running detention centers..This is where the cost of $70,000 per person per year comes into play.....One of the illegals get sick on Manus so they fly them to Brisbane for treatment at what cost?.....Something you are trying to avoid.
> 
> So are you saying let ISIL run riot in Iraq and other middle east countries with the murdering of innocent men women and children?...Let ISIL have s free reign?
> 
> Where are your priorities?




Where did I say let ISIL run riot?

I'm not trying to avoid anything. I simply did the sums based on the figures in that article. 

The article claims $1.5B was spent on refugees per year. It then list only $510M, and of that, only $149M goes directly to the asylum seeker themselves - the rest towards charitable organisations. 

But say it's all for them. Where's the other $1B? 

You're not going to tell me the costs of patrolling our waters; or the bills for border control officers at airports, are for asylum seekers too right?


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

moXJO said:


> Detaining a single asylum seeker on Manus or Nauru costs $400,000 per year. Detention in Australia costs $239,000 per year(Souce: National Commission of Audit).
> 
> It's cheaper onshore. But numbers are way down on arrivals compared to the labor fiasco. Are people here saying what happened under Rudd was sustainable, or even sensible?
> 
> ...




Would you take that same trip through those multiples of safe countries if at the end of it you get a million buck?

People do not just pick up and leave because the grass is greener on the other side of the oceans. You seriously think everyone in the world just have a passport and a few grand under their mud floors that they'd just pack up and go if Rudd or Labor or other weaklings and traitorous politicians would look at their claims for "asylum"?

What world do you live in?

Yes, look at Europe.

I was under the impression that Iraq, Syria, Libya were poor and not much of a growth area. No where near the wealth and prestige and civilised people as Europe. But for some reason, those people didn't flee and invade Europe all the decades. 

Don't know why they suddenly thought to leave when "some people" thought it's about time to liberate the place from its tyrant and its people - with daily airstrikes, upending civilian authority and infrastructure with those smart bombs and Hellfires.


----------



## noco (1 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Where did I say let ISIL run riot?
> 
> I'm not trying to avoid anything. I simply did the sums based on the figures in that article.
> 
> ...




You just don't get it do you?

That $70,000 per illegal immigrant per year is an all up cost to the tax payers of Australia..The welfare, the cost of running the detention centers and the naval expenses  etc etc.......This is what you are avoiding and do not want to know about .

You broached on the point of air strikes in Iraq at some roving Arab.....Those airstrikes were targeted at  ISIL.

Once again you have tried to evade the real reason of those strikes which were implemented to curtail the operations of ISIL or ISIS who are murdering innocent men , women and children by the thousands.


----------



## qldfrog (1 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> But for some reason, those people didn't flee and invade Europe all the decades.



Of course, they did, they did try , far too many suceeded but most were pushed back, what changed was Merkel's open door policy.Nothing to do with Irak or Syrian war.
Will you have the same speech for the European white refugees in 20y fleeing sharia rape and collapsed society, or will you still blame the fact that their grandparents /parents were ugly colonialist  and so they deserve it?
Funny how Swede being raped and killed by these "guests" have never even had colonies or entered in any war, but still have to pay the price for their naive faith.
Once you put in place the civilisation war Christian vs muslim, it is so simple, but too simple isn't it?


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

noco said:


> You just don't get it do you?
> 
> That $70,000 per illegal immigrant per year is an all up cost to the tax payers of Australia..The welfare, the cost of running the detention centers and the naval expenses  etc etc.......This is what you are avoiding and do not want to know about .
> 
> ...




Firstly, that $70,000 figure was conjured up from the "budget" of $2.9B for the "expected" almost doubling of refugees "next year" (2014) to 40,000 from the then 22,500.

So at best, that's an imaginary number News Corp. pull out of their behind.

Secondly, it is dishonest to lump all the costs for border control, offshore gulags, onshore detention centres etc. as spending on refugees.

That's like saying Hillary Clinton's wisdom is worth $200K+ per hour, and not five bucks with the rest on legalised bribery.

----

Was ISIS around when Saddam was screwing his people? Or did they appear after we liberate the Iraqis, and in the process accidentally, indirectly, never could have foresee, the death and destruction that liberated over 2 million Iraqis (to Allah and God), internally displaced some 5 to 10 million people, forcing another 5 or so million to seek refuge in places like Iran and the nearest border they could get to.

But I guess to make peace you got to start a few wars first. To save people a few hundred thousand Iraqi children have got to die from lack of medical care and nutrition from sanctions.

You heard the phrase about not reading our own press right? Doesn't just apply to movie and rock stars believing in it and ruin their careers.


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Of course, they did, they did try , far too many suceeded but most were pushed back, what changed was Merkel's open door policy.Nothing to do with Irak or Syrian war.
> Will you have the same speech for the European white refugees in 20y fleeing sharia rape and collapsed society, or will you still blame the fact that their grandparents /parents were ugly colonialist  and so they deserve it?
> Funny how Swede being raped and killed by these "guests" have never even had colonies or entered in any war, but still have to pay the price for their naive faith.
> Once you put in place the civilisation war Christian vs muslim, it is so simple, but too simple isn't it?




When did I ever blame White people for what their ancestors did? And that's not because my ancestors also did similar, mmm... civilising works on the Champa, Khmer and other people too. All our ancestors did things man. Just bigger or smaller scale - due to them not yet having enough time or being interrupted by more civilised people.

There never was any war of civilisations - ever in the history of Man. Only idiotic little politicians and inept Masters of War think or fight in clashes of civilisation.

Real warmongers fight for money and war booties. They just dress it up as noble ideals and us against them so the young and the ill-inform would march out and die to get those booties.

For example, Alexander doesn't much care for having his Persian colonies being Greek and read Aristotle and dress like fairies. As long as the Persian plebs pay their taxes and keep to farming, all is well.

Same with the Romans; the Mongolian conquered most of the known world then and there are little traces of them having ever done it - why? Because the Mongolian warlords know what's valuable to them. And having a bunch of civilised town hippies learning to ride horses doesn't serve that interest.

The same can be said all on down, across all empires and do-gooder non-empires.

Why do you think the US and its Coalition of the Willing take out Saddam? Spending some $2 trillion and counting fast at a few years ago.

The same noble politicians and war chiefs who spent that kind of cash to liberate a foreign group of savages see no need to spend 0.1% of that warchest to provide education or healthcare or clean drinking water to its own population.

Anyway..


----------



## dutchie (1 May 2016)

ulutzu said:


> Would you take that same trip through those multiples of safe countries if at the end of it you get a million buck?




Most people would, especially if they are in a sh#thole country!



ulutzu said:


> People do not just pick up and leave because the grass is greener on the other side of the oceans.




Of course they do, it is naive to think otherwise.


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

dutchie said:


> Most people would, especially if they are in a sh#thole country!
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they do, it is naive to think otherwise.




Really? So why don't all the Indonesians just move on down south? Is it richer and more democratic up there?

People don't just pack up, sold off the farm, get on a boat where they could literally die, just so they can earn a bit more.

The only reason why they would risk it would be when the condition is so bad that if they do not, they'd literally die there. 

Yes, wars and famine shouldn't be a reason to try and get out of where God put you. And if it gets really bad, ask Merkel to drop by and put up some fenced-off area where where the bombs won't get to you. 

We talking about human or cattles here?


---

And yes, dam refugees and human miseries... why should other people have to it. It make me so angry and upset at the nastiness of these floating parasites that I forgot to get upset at Chevron making over $1 billion in sales a year and pay zero income tax. Or them 79 honest fair dinkum Aussie earning over $1M a year and pay zero income tax.

It's nice to know my couple of tax dollars go towards helping millionaires doing it tough. I'd rather it help the poor savages but then that's just my communism talking.


----------



## Tisme (1 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> But say it's all for them. Where's the other $1B?




to the public service to administer the production of ink on paper.


----------



## Tisme (1 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> People don't just pack up, sold off the farm, get on a boat where they could literally die, just so they can earn a bit more.
> 
> . .




The pioneers of this country did just that


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> The pioneers of this country did just that




If my history is somewhere close, the first few fleets were forced against their will - being convicts and what not. Then the Potato Famine forcing a few more; then there's the usual terrorists and enemy of the state redheads and other of pioneering spirits being told there's gold and cheap plentiful land for the picking if only they'd leave the old world - one that have nothing for them anyway.

No?

So yes, true. Pioneers.


----------



## luutzu (1 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> to the public service to administer the production of ink on paper.




Expensive paper and ink. I would have thought it's somebody being ripped off with some other being blamed.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Expensive paper and ink. I would have thought it's somebody being ripped off with some other being blamed.




Yes, it seems it is too hard to trace big business' laundering money, imagine how impossible it would be to unearth the govt's duplicity. should it be treacherous/covert with the public purse.

I'm guessing there are programs that are sheltered for the public good and money has to be spent, but under the veil of publically declared activities.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> If my history is somewhere close, the first few fleets were forced against their will - being convicts and what not. Then the Potato Famine forcing a few more; then there's the usual terrorists and enemy of the state redheads and other of pioneering spirits being told there's gold and cheap plentiful land for the picking if only they'd leave the old world - one that have nothing for them anyway.
> 
> No?
> 
> So yes, true. Pioneers.




We are talking leaky ships right upto he late 19th century. 

The 750 convicts and 750 support staff in the first fleet were stout of body gene pools selected for the  harsh conditions ahead. A few convicts even had their convictions set aside once they boarded the boats. But I'm sure many were beaten like a redheaded stepchild on a regular basis.

In regard to the undesirables coming from you know where, the truth is that very few Australians want ill bred, lazy, uniform wearing, paternalistic, separatist ar53holes coming in to setup exclusion zone ghettos who are so scared of imaginary skyfairies they would rather watch destruction of humanity than lift a finger and voice to rid themselves of the miserable existence they lead. They aren't escaping, they are coming to fertile fields.


----------



## moXJO (2 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> to the public service to administer the production of ink on paper.




This deserves it's own thread. Going off topic but an example of waste was the $1 million toilet block  that was built in my area.
Cost to build was about $220k yet council managed to get it to the million dollar mark.


----------



## luutzu (2 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> Yes, it seems it is too hard to trace big business' laundering money, imagine how impossible it would be to unearth the govt's duplicity. should it be treacherous/covert with the public purse.
> 
> I'm guessing there are programs that are sheltered for the public good and money has to be spent, but under the veil of publically declared activities.




If we can't take our gov't's words, whose words can we take? 

In a few of his lectures, Chomsky was saying how the entire high-tech industry in the US were funded by the Pentagon/US gov't. All under the guise of security against the Reds.

So US taxpayers funded years and decades of these high tech stuff - thru university grants, thru Pentagon contracts and other departments. Then once they're successful and time to reap the benefit... private corporations and entrepreneur like IBM, GE, Bill Gates step in and get the credit - and all the money.

Same with the internet. Bet most of us can't name the guy who invented the internet protocol (I can't remember either, haha)... but we all know the freckled faced kid having billions of bucks from some social media app.

Same with the current cyber-security drive. Imagine what private contractors building these metadata vacuums can do after they're done with securing us from terrorists too stupid and too lazy to meet in person.


----------



## luutzu (2 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> ...
> 
> In regard to the undesirables coming from you know where, the truth is that very few Australians want ill bred, lazy, uniform wearing, paternalistic, separatist ar53holes coming in to setup exclusion zone ghettos who are so scared of imaginary skyfairies they would rather watch destruction of humanity than lift a finger and voice to rid themselves of the miserable existence they lead. They aren't escaping, they are coming to fertile fields.




Are the Irish coming again? 

Dam it, I thought becoming a corporate tax haven would be enough to pay for those alcohol and... and that dance they do.


----------



## orr (3 May 2016)

drsmith said:


> If you think our current border protection policies is that rather than keeping our borders secure, what's your alternative to keep our borders secure ?




That the persecution and torment of those detained is done to political effect is not contested...excepting of fools. 
Border security with this  regard  is a ruse that plays well to same demographic.
It's your right to advocate for Australia's withdrawal for the refugee convention... go ahead.
With $1.25 Billion (or enter your figure) to spend on 1500 odd people, I could come up with plenty of alternatives ... and if anyone couldn't for a small fraction  of that amount, they are  at the back end of the 'bell curve' .

Feel free to answer the two other points raised with the point above...  come on Smith what's the UNHCR really up to???


----------



## drsmith (5 May 2016)

orr said:


> come on Smith what's the UNHCR really up to???



As you've scoured the last few pages for a response on this specific point, you will have noted a contribution from another poster for you to consider. I have also commented on it in this thread in the past if you care to look.

Secondly, if you are unable or perhaps unwilling to see how an asylum seeker swap can't be done through the UNHCR without encouraging illegal people smuggling as accepting boat arrivals would, I can't help. It's pretty obvious.

Thirdly, when talking cost relativities, you can't ignore the cost relativities of the decisions the previous Labor government took.

You have a certain viewpoint and obviously the results of decisions past don't influence that. Don't however expect others to repeatedly go over these points for your amusement.


----------



## basilio (5 May 2016)

One of the weirder/nastier/ mindless comments made re asylum seekers was Peter Duttons contribution trying to blame refugee advocates for the despair and self immolation of asylum seekers on Manus Island and Nauru.

Worth a read of just how this went down with some of the people who are supporting asylum seekers left to rot in New Guinea.



> * Refugees don't self-harm because of me, Peter Dutton, they self-harm because of you
> Sarah Smith
> *
> Refugee advocates work day and night trying to prevent asylum seekers harming themselves – it is our greatest fear. To be blamed for it is devastating
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...me-peter-dutton-they-self-harm-because-of-you

It's tough stuff to read.  Perhaps it is easier not think about these people at all?


----------



## orr (7 May 2016)

drsmith said:


> As you've scoured the last few pages for a response on this specific point, you will have noted a contribution from another poster for you to consider. I have also commented on it in this thread in the past if you care to look.




I thought the response so bazaar as to not warrant comment, dear Rumpy. IF that agenda was the aim of some in the UNHCR, just how would a compromised, underfunded, with a bureaucratic structural organisation designed 'by committee' go about its implementation of resettling the burgeoning tens of millions under their umbrella. But if imaginary boogey-men are your thing..... 



drsmith said:


> Secondly, if you are unable or perhaps unwilling to see how an asylum seeker swap can't be done through the UNHCR without encouraging illegal people smuggling as accepting boat arrivals would, I can't help. It's pretty obvious.



I like that,  directly lifted from the Col Oliver North Iran-Contra affair play book. 



drsmith said:


> Thirdly, when talking cost relativities, you can't ignore the cost relativities of the decisions the previous Labor government took.




The billions happily poured into this debacle to placate the comfortably racist/sadistic element, they're the ones who's _amusement_ comes about psychologically torturing people to madness and self immolation to political advantage, does have a _bearing_ on my concern for the country. For evil to flourish say nothing and think less and read 'Merde-och'.


----------



## Tisme (8 May 2016)

Be vigilant



> NEWS FLASH FROM DARWIN
> The Australian Navy intercepted a boatload of people off the coast of Darwin today.
> 
> This placed the Navy in a very awkward position, as the boat was not heading to, but away from Australia towards Indonesia.
> ...


----------



## qldfrog (9 May 2016)

orr said:


> For evil to flourish say nothing and think less and read 'Merde-och'.



Or let Muslim fundamentalism gain hold in your country and see how it quickly develops; A visit to European suburbs is highly recommended.
It is not black /white issue: Murdoch being  crap does not mean you must swallow all the BS  that is thrown by the other "the world is one" side; this is what is missing in this debate: luutzu and others inc.
But it is so much easier to play the educated smartass vs the rabid racists (actually wrong word as most muslim arabs are of white skin) bogans;
trouble is when you wake up, it is too late so in the face of truth and facts, you keep digging in : "I could not have been wrong all these years ...as did/does the left in Europe".It is too late there, not yet in Australia
Anyway, some people still believe there is no clash of civilisation there after 1600y of fighting...


----------



## moXJO (9 May 2016)

Sweden was mentioned by someone before as to what we should aspire to.
They have Nazi holding marches and the left (I think it's the RF) are stabbing those on opposing sides and destroying houses of those suspected of being right wing. Sure it swings both ways.  The right wing groups are strengthening  throughout EU.
Luckily Australia has always kept fairly centered.  But the more the left pushes the more organized right wing  hate groups are getting. 


https://youtu.be/U1MYMVfyHi0

Open door policy is creating more problems then it's solving.


----------



## drsmith (9 May 2016)

The April OSB monthly update shows another month with no successful people smuggling operations by boat.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...s/releases/monthly-operational-update-april-2

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...n-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-april-2016

12 asylum seekers on a boat which reached the Cocos Islands last week were returned to Sri-Lanka.


----------



## moXJO (9 May 2016)

orr said:


> The billions happily poured into this debacle to placate the comfortably racist/sadistic element, they're the ones who's _amusement_ comes about psychologically torturing people to madness and self immolation to political advantage, does have a _bearing_ on my concern for the country. For evil to flourish say nothing and think less and read 'Merde-och'.




Do they have an option to go to another country?


----------



## noco (10 May 2016)

The so called united Labor Party are all over the place with their "TURN BACK THE BOATS" policy....They are split right down the middle and you can bet your boots if there is hung parliament and Labor align themselves with the Greens the pressure will on to open the boarders to people smugglers again.

Even Albanese has defied his fearless leader.

Can you trust Labor......*no!!*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fed...s/news-story/9d8f892803f8ace7eeac1863cfcd88b5

*The Immigration Minister revealed the move as a Labor candidate in Melbourne broke ranks on her party’s asylum policy, joining five MPs and another Labor candidate in opposing turnbacks.

Mr Dutton said the growing dissent from within Labor could force Bill Shorten to abandon the policy if he won the election as opposition candidate Sophie Ismail spoke out against turnbacks. Ms Ismail, who is battling to win back the seat of Melbourne for Labor from Greens MP Adam Bandt, said she had concerns about turnbacks. “I don’t think they should be on the table,” she said.

“When people arrive by boat, and 90 per cent of them are genuine refugees, turning them back to places not signed up to the refugee convention is a problem.”

The comments forced the Opposition Leader, as well as senior frontbencher Penny Wong, to quickly declare that Labor continued to back turnbacks. Mr Shorten said the issue of making sure vulnerable people were not exploited by criminal syndicates was a difficult one, but Labor’s policy was clear.

“We will not put the people-smugglers back into business,” he said. “We will not allow policy which sees the mass drowning of vulnerable people seeking to come to this country.”*

Lets make a mental of all this.


----------



## qldfrog (10 May 2016)

and we may avoid that


----------



## drsmith (10 May 2016)

Tanya Plibersek is hoping Labor won't win government,



> The deputy leader said turning back an asylum-seeker boat, as the government did last week, was something the party hoped it would “never have to do”.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fed...k/news-story/14faf70668fa7553543bf56a2f7631b6


----------



## drsmith (10 May 2016)

Anthony Albanese on Lateline last night,

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4458973.htm

Dear oh dear!


----------



## noco (26 May 2016)

IMMIGRATION POEM







I cross ocean, poor and broke.  
Take bus, see employment folk.  

Nice man treat me good in there.  
Say I need to see welfare.  


Welfare say, 'You come no more, we send cash right to your door. " 

Welfare checks - they make you wealthy!  Medicare - it keep you healthy! 

By and by, I get plenty money.  
Thanks to you, you Aussie dummy! 

Write to friends in motherland.  
Tell them 'come fast as you can. " 

They come in turbans and Toyota trucks, 
And buy big house with welfare bucks! 

They come here, we live together.  
More welfare checks, it gets better!  
      <U>         
Fourteen families, they moving in,  
But neighbor's patience wearing thin. 
Finally, Aussie guy moves away.  
Now I buy his house, then I say,  

'Find more immigrants for house to rent. "  
And in the yard I put a tent.  





Everything is very good,  
And soon we own the neighborhood.  



We have hobby, it's called breeding. Welfare pay for baby feeding.  
Kids need dentist? Wives need pills? We get free! We got no bills!  
Australians crazy! They work all year, to keep the welfare running here.  
We think Australia darn good place.  
Too darn good for Aussie race! 
If they no like us, they can scram. Got lots of room in Afghanistan!     


PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY Australian, US & UK TAXPAYER YOU KNOW


----------



## luutzu (27 May 2016)

noco said:


> IMMIGRATION POEM
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Which generation of Aussie do we send this to noco?

Probably the third or fourth and after ey?

Yes, Australia set these programmes up just to serve immigrants. Ever wonder if some twisted idiot thought one way to make it easier to cut gov't obligations to the poor is to do these kind of stuff?


----------



## Tisme (27 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Which generation of Aussie do we send this to noco?
> 
> Probably the third or fourth and after ey?
> 
> Yes, Australia set these programmes up just to serve immigrants. Ever wonder if some twisted idiot thought one way to make it easier to cut gov't obligations to the poor is to do these kind of stuff?




Given the lack of verbs and cohesive lines I would suggest it was written by an Asian?


----------



## noco (27 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Which generation of Aussie do we send this to noco?
> 
> Probably the third or fourth and after ey?
> 
> Yes, Australia set these programmes up just to serve immigrants. Ever wonder if some twisted idiot thought one way to make it easier to cut gov't obligations to the poor is to do these kind of stuff?




I would suggest it refers to the 50,000 illegals allowed to enter under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd....The greatest mistake any government has ever made in the Australian history.

The English, Italian and German immigrants who entered legally after WW11 were all good people who were expert in their trades, conscientious and assimilated with our way of life.....They did not set up their own religious ghettos and they abided by our Australian laws...They were never a burden on the social security system as we are seeing to day from those who entered 2008/2013....The same thing could be said of those Vietnamese people...There were never any terrorists threats like we are seeing here in the past 3 or 4 years. 

How do I know these things?....I worked and in some cases lived with them on out of town construction sites.

So please don't question me about the current situation which is costing the tax payer $27 million each year just to keep those in detention with free medical  and dental care.....free board and lodgings...free cigarettes and free phones.


----------



## luutzu (27 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> Given the lack of verbs and cohesive lines I would suggest it was written by an Asian?




Oi. Not all Asians have my writing skills (written ability? writing ability?)

I think the poet up there was trying to speak in the imagined voice of the immigrant McG.


----------



## luutzu (27 May 2016)

noco said:


> I would suggest it refers to the 50,000 illegals allowed to enter under Rudd/Gillard/Rudd....The greatest mistake any government has ever made in the Australian history.
> 
> The English, Italian and German immigrants who entered legally after WW11 were all good people who were expert in their trades, conscientious and assimilated with our way of life.....They did not set up their own religious ghettos and they abided by our Australian laws...They were never a burden on the social security system as we are seeing to day from those who entered 2008/2013....The same thing could be said of those Vietnamese people...There were never any terrorists threats like we are seeing here in the past 3 or 4 years.
> 
> ...




Why is it that all lazy, no good, ripping the system and screwing the daughters type are always the latest batch of arrivals?

We could understand if it's the First Fleet, or the Irish, but all of the groups are seen as no good immigrants when they first arrive? Coincident or what?

I think I miss a couple emoji somewhere


----------



## noco (27 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Why is it that all lazy, no good, ripping the system and screwing the daughters type are always the latest batch of arrivals?
> 
> We could understand if it's the First Fleet, or the Irish, but all of the groups are seen as no good immigrants when they first arrive? Coincident or what?
> 
> I think I miss a couple emoji somewhere




Absolutely no comparison my friend....You are grasping at straws I am afraid...

You know darn well I have been referring to the current lot who are sucking the Australian taxpayers dry.


----------



## Tisme (27 May 2016)

luutzu said:


> Oi. Not all Asians have my writing skills (written ability? writing ability?)
> 
> I think the poet up there was trying to speak in the imagined voice of the immigrant McG.




I thought you were raised and educated here? I was of the opinion you rec'd a first class Canberra education, thus the appalling grammar?


----------



## luutzu (27 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> I thought you were raised and educated here? I was of the opinion you rec'd a first class Canberra education, thus the appalling grammar?




Raised and formally educated here, but learn English from the best of American films and televisions. 

I guess for a White political candidate, dumbing down their English will endear them as one of the people; for the coloured folk, they better speak Shakespearean prose to even get a chance... mmm... grammar here I come.


----------



## luutzu (27 May 2016)

noco said:


> Absolutely no comparison my friend....You are grasping at straws I am afraid...
> 
> You know darn well I have been referring to the current lot who are sucking the Australian taxpayers dry.




Are we talking about multi-national corporations and them Chevron, ExxonMobile, Shell... or we're still on about the refugees?

I take it you haven't had a chance to watch *Requiem to the American Dream*?


----------



## noco (28 May 2016)

This U-Tube explains what could happen here in Australia.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/a-hPCnel0qc


----------



## Tisme (4 June 2016)

Is the Turnbull Govt still onboard with this?

From Facebook currently trending


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

noco said:


> This U-Tube explains what could happen here in Australia.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/embed/a-hPCnel0qc




That's new.

We always saw poorly dressed, badly spoken racists ranting. This Weston dude is clean, well "educated" (since he has a British accent) but as racist and idiotic as the rest of them.


----------



## DB008 (5 June 2016)

Don't worry about helping people here looking for work first...

*Mike Baird to give refugees priority in NSW public service jobs​*


> The Baird government will offer refugees a priority pathway to public service jobs in a new commitment that puts it at odds with recent comments by federal Immigration Minister Peter Dutton.
> 
> At least 100 public sector jobs will be created for refugees over the next 12 months. Although the scheme has been designed to assist the additional intake of refugees fleeing conflict in Syria and Iraq, all refugees who arrived after December 2015 are eligible.
> 
> "No refugee comes here wanting to live off welfare. They all want to build new lives for their family," said the NSW Co-ordinator General for Refugee Resettlement, Peter Shergold.




http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/baird-to-give-refugees-priority-in-nsw-public-service-jobs-20160603-gpbfns.html​


----------



## Tisme (5 June 2016)

DB008 said:


> Don't worry about helping people here looking for work first...
> 
> *Mike Baird to give refugees priority in NSW public service jobs​*
> 
> ...




Mike Baird is a islam loving commo


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Mike Baird is a islam loving commo




Muslims can't win can they?

If they don't work they're accused of welfare; if they do work they're accused of taking jobs from Aussies - even if those jobs are most likely translator/community assistant jobs requiring some sensibility about Muslims and Islamic culture.


----------



## noco (5 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Mike Baird is a islam loving commo




I think he is baiting the unions and the Labor Party.

The LUG Party want to bring in more refugees but the unions will scream blue murder about the refugees taking their jobs.


----------



## Tisme (5 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> Muslims can't win can they?
> 
> If they don't work they're accused of welfare; if they do work they're accused of taking jobs from Aussies - even if those jobs are most likely translator/community assistant jobs requiring some sensibility about Muslims and Islamic culture.




Let's face it, the jobs will be like many in the public service - an oxymoron.

I'd suggest this is a cynical vote catcher in a marginal federal electorate ... crony state encroaching on the federal sphere. Typical communist manifesto.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Let's face it, the jobs will be like many in the public service - an oxymoron.
> 
> I'd suggest this is a cynical vote catcher in a marginal federal electorate ... crony state encroaching on the federal sphere. Typical communist manifesto.




Well we aren't all be born with silver spoons up our behind where we'd get a job reading teleprompters, prepared slogans and appear all leadership-like stiffs kissing babies and speaking growth and jobs to collect the paychecks and endless benefits.

Only job coming close are illegals entering Australia and finding work with gov't agencies.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> Muslims can't win can they?
> 
> If they don't work they're accused of welfare; if they do work they're accused of taking jobs from Aussies - even if those jobs are most likely translator/community assistant jobs requiring some sensibility about Muslims and Islamic culture.




No one should get preference for jobs because of where they come from.

Merit should be the only criteria. Let the refugees learn skills that would make them better equipped to do jobs than others competing for the job. If less capable people are given jobs over more capable people then public money is wasted and service suffers.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> No one should get preference for jobs because of where they come from.
> 
> Merit should be the only criteria. Let the refugees learn skills that would make them better equipped to do jobs than others competing for the job. If less capable people are given jobs over more capable people then public money is wasted and service suffers.




True. Not arguing with that.

Most likely those jobs are in social services for refugees. Translators and such.


----------



## noco (5 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> No one should get preference for jobs because of where they come from.
> 
> Merit should be the only criteria. Let the refugees learn skills that would make them better equipped to do jobs than others competing for the job. If less capable people are given jobs over more capable people then public money is wasted and service suffers.




So what do you want?......Refugees doing Australian workers jobs...Australians doing Australian jobs or double the Labor Party's intake to 27,500 or 50,000 by the Greens to increase the cost of the welfare system...That would be the last straw to break the camels back......Or I guess Labor could just put it on the "SPENDOMETER"......Just let the kids and the grand kids pay for it over the next 30 years or so.

You are already complaining about the unemployment being too high under the Liberals.

I don't think you are giving much thought to the outcome but that is typical of the LUG party, they have no brains to think with....All ex union hacks who only know how to intimidate, bully and extort money out of big business and do rotten deals for the workers.


----------



## basilio (7 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Is the Turnbull Govt still onboard with this?
> 
> From Facebook currently trending
> 
> View attachment 66984




Tisme has it crossed your mind that this particular email might be in error? Indeed  perhaps it could just be *a complete lying load of rubbish* specifically intended to create and inflame anger against asylum seekers and refugees? 

Quick check on the net shows up what a load of rubbish it is. But of course it has made it's rounds across thousands of people.

Check it out. And while you do see what other examples of lying, hateful dribble is being passed off and accepted by many people.

Cheers

https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/201...oax-email-and-misinformation-on-the-internet/


----------



## basilio (7 June 2016)

Actually if anyone is interested in how some of these Hoax/Wrong email chains get going check out the history of a very similar email which began in Canada. 

Comes from Snopes
     Fact Check


> *
> FALSE: Refugees Are Paid More Than Retirees
> The federal government does not provide a much greater monthly allowance to refugees than to retirees.*
> David Mikkelson
> ...



http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/refugees.asp


________________________________________________________________________

PS This website also does an excellent job of tracing how this email has morphed across countries and continents.

http://www.thatsnonsense.com/do-refugees-really-get-more-benefits-than-pensioners/

Cheers


----------



## luutzu (7 June 2016)

basilio said:


> Tisme has it crossed your mind that this particular email might be in error? Indeed  perhaps it could just be *a complete lying load of rubbish* specifically intended to create and inflame anger against asylum seekers and refugees?
> 
> Quick check on the net shows up what a load of rubbish it is. But of course it has made it's rounds across thousands of people.
> 
> ...




I'm sure he knows. 

Just some people, like yourself, thought to correct errors and prejudice with facts; Some people, like Tisme, have a "sense of humour" and set up fights.


----------



## basilio (7 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> I'm sure he knows.
> 
> Just some people, like yourself, thought to correct errors and prejudice with facts; Some people, like Tisme, have a "sense of humour" and set up fights.




Maybe, maybe not... Hope not anyway. He'll let us know.


----------



## qldfrog (7 June 2016)

the real question is wht should a refugee or illegal immigrant get as much, or even anything;
when I migrated here, legally, I had a 3 year period where no wellfare payment was allowed.
 I had to pay from my pocket a full health check to state that I was healthy while O/S,
but I am not coloured, not muslim, not LGBT (or whatever sex fairies have)and  waited for 3 years in a queue with quota based on the country of origin., brought in education and money, had full paper and police checks,and this was under an ALP government...


----------



## Tisme (7 June 2016)

basilio said:


> Tisme has it crossed your mind that this particular email might be in error? Indeed  perhaps it could just be *a complete lying load of rubbish* specifically intended to create and inflame anger against asylum seekers and refugees?




Of course .... but that doesn't stop farcebook pumping it out. I figure it must be OK coz the LNP, Greens and ALP are doing the same thing.


----------



## luutzu (7 June 2016)

basilio said:


> Maybe, maybe not... Hope not anyway. He'll let us know.




I think he is. He sounds the Lefty Greeny Reddish type, just his upbringing doesn't allow him to admit it. 

I think I just insulted a bunch of people. The trouble you get for trying to defend the guy.


----------



## luutzu (7 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> the real question is wht should a refugee or illegal immigrant get as much, or even anything;
> when I migrated here, legally, I had a 3 year period where no wellfare payment was allowed.
> I had to pay from my pocket a full health check to state that I was healthy while O/S,
> but I am not coloured, not muslim, not LGBT (or whatever sex fairies have)and  waited for 3 years in a queue with quota based on the country of origin., brought in education and money, had full paper and police checks,and this was under an ALP government...




I think it's called a humanitarian visa Mr. French. Where the lucky recipient often have nothing but the clothes on their back and have to start all over again on a lot of hardwork and the kindness of strangers.

I know flying Economy to the destination of your choice is quite tough, but at least you're almost certain not to die on the way.

The important thing is not dying; or attack by pirates; or surviving years in a tent in a camp in some desert somewhere.


----------



## basilio (7 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Of course .... but that doesn't stop farcebook pumping it out. I figure it must be OK coz the LNP, Greens and ALP are doing the same thing.




Oooh that was very  dark and cryptic  Tisme.. Makes me wonder about you.

You know/realise full well that the email trashing refugees and asylum seekers was lying inflammatory rubbish.

But you then suggest that all the political parties are equally guilty of lying rubbish.  (I think that is what you are saying...) So it makes it all right ?? Really ??

I can see a dark point somewhere.  It was around Howards time that the  LNP Government really began to demonise asylum seekers calling them "illegals"  (a complete lie) framing them as people who would drown their children to get into Australia (children overboard - another monstrous lie) and from then onwards framing the public debate by classifying asylum seekers as dangerous, diseased and desperate,  not to mention potential if not actual terrorists.

And the Labour Party followed suit.  They too accepted the idea that (for political reasons) they would not accept  boat asylum seekers as future citizens. They had to find an overseas solution.

But I am surprised that you tar the Greens with the same brush.  To date they are the one political party that still recognises asylum seekers as real, normal people attempting to escape persecution and asking for help to rebuild their lives. 

The result of our joint party policy of making life hell for these people is ugly as xhit. That's why it's so much easier to treat them as sub human isn't it ? We really couldn't face ourselves if we recognised what we were doing to real people ...

Let's pray we are never put in their situation shall we ?

*What has gone down in New Guinea*



> *
> The torment of women at Nauru: 'This is reason I left my country – this fear of rape'
> *
> Date
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...orment-of-women-at-nauru-20160606-gpcfeq.html


----------



## trainspotter (7 June 2016)

Are we talking real refugees or economic migrants here ? If they can afford to pay a people smuggler to get here by boat ... well you figure it out


----------



## Tisme (7 June 2016)

basilio said:


> Oooh that was very  dark and cryptic  Tisme.. Makes me wonder about you.
> 
> You know/realise full well that the email trashing refugees and asylum seekers was lying inflammatory rubbish.
> 
> ...




I can understand you have raw nerves about your empathies and politics basilio, most people do. I hold that when it comes to things like xenophobia, there is little chance there will be a eureka moment when the bigots on both sides of the argument will reverse their attitudes.

We all know that John Howard mirrored the silent majority attitude of the nation born 1970's and previous. We all know the taboos we are compelled by both LNP, Lab and especially the Greens to deny for fear of the state and synthetic community groups taking us to task. Tony Abbott propelled the hatred of asylum seekers into a different orbit and the Lab had to follow to stay soluble. 

Being informed of what the opinion leaders are promoting to those too lazy or too politically blinded to care is valuable imo, even if a Face/Palm moment.


----------



## luutzu (8 June 2016)

trainspotter said:


> Are we talking real refugees or economic migrants here ? If they can afford to pay a people smuggler to get here by boat ... well you figure it out




Can afford a boat ride if you sell all your posession. Still can't buy you a second life if you drown that first one though.


----------



## trainspotter (8 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> Can afford a boat ride if you sell all your posession. Still can't buy you a second life if you drown that first one though.




When your possessions are the clothes on your back and nothing else then you are a refugee. If you pass through several countries and pay a people smuggler you are an economic migrant. Big difference.


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2016)

trainspotter said:


> When your possessions are the clothes on your back and nothing else then you are a refugee. If you pass through several countries and pay a people smuggler you are an economic migrant. Big difference.



And then the host country is entitled to select and be choosy, as they were for me and as i expect for anyone else.
Not that Australia is in need of people requiring help, a trip in NT settlements or your bogan capital cities areas demonstrate that many children born here would greatly benefit of proper help.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> And then the host country is entitled to select and be choosy, as they were for me and as i expect for anyone else.
> Not that Australia is in need of people requiring help, a trip in NT settlements or your bogan capital cities areas demonstrate that many children born here would greatly benefit of proper help.




Don't you mean "our" bogan capital cities ?

Aren't you one of us now ?


----------



## luutzu (8 June 2016)

trainspotter said:


> When your possessions are the clothes on your back and nothing else then you are a refugee. If you pass through several countries and pay a people smuggler you are an economic migrant. Big difference.




All refugees pay people smugglers. They may also pay/bribe border guards and others on the way too.

Must people become Columbus or Magellan or otherwise get their own boat or dingy or floaty to be considered refugee?


----------



## luutzu (8 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> And then the host country is entitled to select and be choosy, as they were for me and as i expect for anyone else.
> Not that Australia is in need of people requiring help, a trip in NT settlements or your bogan capital cities areas demonstrate that many children born here would greatly benefit of proper help.




Again, it's not an either them or us "choice". It could be both. 

But thing is, and this is important, if those in political office managed to convinced us that those who risked their lives, those who ran from war and terror... if our politicians can convince us that such people do not deserve any help or humanity, do you seriously think they'll have a hard time convincing us to help our own poor and desperate?

Think about it.

If I can convinced you that Syrians and Iraqis - people whose country are literally being blown to bits - are just economic migrants; are cowards running away instead of staying to fight and die in their country... and you accept that they do not need help.

Would you then accept that those poor, homeless, poverty stricken Australians need or deserve help? 

Why? Australia is at peace - no terrorist or bombing or liberators here, right?

Australia is a country of equal opportunity, with generous welfare and cheap to free education blah blah...

So it must follow that those who are poor or broke or on welfare and not making ends meet; must follow that they are lazy or on drugs or just criminals abusing the system.


No?

Pay attention to political arguments around budget time where a whole lot of "generous" services must be cut because we can't afford it. But other cuts and giveaways are for economic growth and jobs and growth and jobs.

-----

May want to take an advice from Confucius and see the country as a family - as we all are talking about when we spoke of generosity begins at home; help our poor brothers and sisters first, right?

Well, if we look at families whose motto is everyone for themselves, money is all that counts. Watch how the kids of those families grow up to be.


----------



## basilio (8 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> Again, it's not an either them or us "choice". It could be both.
> 
> But thing is, and this is important, if those in political office managed to convinced us that those who risked their lives, those who ran from war and terror... if our politicians can convince us that such people do not deserve any help or humanity, do you seriously think they'll have a hard time convincing us to help our own poor and desperate?
> 
> ...





Great post Luutzu.  Goes right to the heart of the issue. Worth framing mate.


----------



## trainspotter (8 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> All refugees pay people smugglers. They may also pay/bribe border guards and others on the way too.
> 
> Must people become Columbus or Magellan or otherwise get their own boat or dingy or floaty to be considered refugee?




The point luutzu is if you cross through several countries where you can legally stay as a "refugee" but continue onto another country where you pay a people smuggler to get you to a certain country would you then be considered as an economic migrant? Or it doesn't matter how much you pay or how many countries you can pass through you are stilled called a "refugee" ?

Case point where Pakistanis travelled through Turkey to get to Greece are now being deported. Refugees you think? 

http://time.com/4286839/turkey-refugees-deportation-european-union/


----------



## bellenuit (8 June 2016)

*The Death of the Most Generous Nation on Earth*

_Little Sweden has taken in far more refugees per capita than any country in Europe. But in doing so, it’s tearing itself apart._

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/02/10...-nation-on-earth-sweden-syria-refugee-europe/


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Don't you mean "our" bogan capital cities ?
> 
> Aren't you one of us now ?



I am:
*my *capital city is Brisbane, *your capital city  *might be different;
so the your aka the one you have based on your state

am definitively bonded to Australia now and a bit late for a change even if NZ seems quite attractive.
Thailand as well actually but that is a bigger ask....


----------



## SirRumpole (8 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> I am:
> *my *capital city is Brisbane, *your capital city  *might be different;
> so the your aka the one you have based on your state
> 
> ...




Oh right. No bogans in Brisbane then ?

Except for schoolies week when they all flood in from OTHER States.


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> May want to take an advice from Confucius and see the country as a family - as we all are talking about when we spoke of generosity begins at home; help our poor brothers and sisters first, right?
> Well, if we look at families whose motto is everyone for themselves, money is all that counts. Watch how the kids of those families grow up to be.



My trouble Luutzu is that you consider not the country but the world as your family, 
and so assume that each human deserve to be treated in the same way;
we already touched this subject.
Many people do, by ignorance, bias due to own experience that is extrapolated to the current migrants (and I would see you there) or just naive lala land people
Whereas I extend my family to my country only (here, Australia)  and stops there (it does not even include my birthplace).
I do place a value to the belonging to a country, not the aussie oie oie oie or the drapped flag od the drunks at New Year eve, but the land, the history, and the belonging.This is my family.

Every illegal migrant is a cost, a burden and a danger to  my " family" and so it is my duty to fight them off.That summarises it quite well, you will also add an experience that few here have of the effect and cohabitation with radical muslims.This as a result of a string of policies O/S mostly mirrored here with a 20y delay-
So my presence here spending some time on this thread: but i can not convince Basilio or Luutzu, I know that.


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh right. No bogans in Brisbane then ?
> 
> Except for schoolies week when they all flood in from OTHER States.





definitively not lacking here, even worse, cashed up bogans until the end of the mining boom....
My new family....


----------



## trainspotter (8 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> definitively not lacking here, even worse, cashed up bogans until the end of the mining boom....
> My new family....




Points !


----------



## luutzu (8 June 2016)

bellenuit said:


> *The Death of the Most Generous Nation on Earth*
> 
> _Little Sweden has taken in far more refugees per capita than any country in Europe. But in doing so, it’s tearing itself apart._
> 
> http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/02/10...-nation-on-earth-sweden-syria-refugee-europe/




The article is a hack job. 

So Sweden took in thousands of refugees during and after WW2; it also took in tens of thousands of refugees in the 1980s and '90s - including more than 100,000 Bosnians.

All of these refugees have contribute positively to Sweden - in politics, healthcare and just good neighbours.

But. But this journalist is saying the current Syrians and Iraqis are different.

How different? 

Less educated; follow a less tolerant version of Islam?

Seriously?

And the journalism get worst...

Eritreans are hardly refugees because the country is at peace - but the warlords there are drafting soldiers and so those who can ran away. But the warlords have a good plan: they let those who escape go and then send their tax collectors over later to collect the earnings - hence ensuring the flow from Eritrea. wtf?

Or this... Afghans who flee from Afghanistan then flee to Sweden "claiming" refugee status because Iran forced them to fight in Syria and they don't want to.

Refugee advocates have said the same thing as these Afghans, but that's impossible. Why impossible? Because Iran is Shiites and Afghans are Sunnis, and Shiites will never hand a gun to Sunnis to go kill other Sunnis in Syria. But "nevertheless", a recent Human Rights Watch report found that Iranians did pay some Afghan refugees to fight in Syria and threaten to deport those who refuse.

This idiot is a journalist? He just quote reports and experts confirming claims of refugees - then deny those report based on his hunch about Shiites and Sunnies.

Wow.


----------



## sptrawler (8 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> The article is a hack job.
> 
> So Sweden took in thousands of refugees during and after WW2; it also took in tens of thousands of refugees in the 1980s and '90s - including more than 100,000 Bosnians.
> 
> ...




Don't you think the intolerance, is due to the more active pursuits, of Islamic motivated people? 

I'm quite sure, if a lot of people who blew themselves and others up in foriegn Countries, said they were Aussie militants and doing it for the loss of trade.

Aussies would become a subject of increasing scrutiny? Or do you think it wouldn't matter, because some are white and christian.LOL


----------



## luutzu (8 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> My trouble Luutzu is that you consider not the country but the world as your family,
> and so assume that each human deserve to be treated in the same way;
> we already touched this subject.
> Many people do, by ignorance, bias due to own experience that is extrapolated to the current migrants (and I would see you there) or just naive lala land people
> ...




Serious?

Some humans are more human than others? Some should be treated different to others?

Maybe Australia would be a better place if we, instead of placing value on the land or the flag, put those values on justice and equality and moral duties and obligation to fellow Man. 

Maybe that is also the spirit of what it meant to be an Australian. 

Why is an "illegal" migrant a cost but a legal migrant not a cost or a threat?

First of all, refugees are not "illegal". International Law and treaties, of which Australia is a signatory to, give those who claim asylum the *legal rights* to make that claim. 

That is, no asylum seekers breaks any law when they enter a country and apply for asylum. 

Second, research have shown that the financial costs spent on refugees are paid back by that refugee within 20 years, easy.

Before that payback period, the country and the community benefits a great deal. One being jobs for community service people; low-wage jobs in isolated communities no Australians want to do etc. etc. been through this.

-------------

I know a few families, literally of the same parents and siblings... The family whose parents are decent and generous tend to have children who are also more generous and kind.

The family whose parent/s are nasty, greedy, selfish... their kids are ones you'd better not turn your back on. Heck, their own parents couldn't honestly trust them.

Why is that?

It is very hard to be "good". Being good tend to "waste" your time; make your poorer; put you at risk of being used and abused... and you cannot at all take advantage of people.

That is why many, not all, many, of those who get rich does so because they don't care about anyone or anything else.

So when parents or spouse encourage or demonstrate the advantage of caring for oneself and screw whoever you can and suck up to whoever has money and power... well the ones I know tend to be surprised when their spouse or their kids turn around and screw them too. 

Yea, good luck with tell friends and family to only screw other people but not you or those you care about.


----------



## luutzu (8 June 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Don't you think the intolerance, is due to the more active pursuits, of Islamic motivated people?




No.

Intolerance, prejudice, discrimination and just all kind of stuff depend on the person. It is not an Islamic thing.

Not even terrorism.


----------



## sptrawler (8 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> No.
> 
> Intolerance, prejudice, discrimination and just all kind of stuff depend on the person. It is not an Islamic thing.
> 
> Not even terrorism.




That's nonsense, I came to Australia as a kid 8 years old, I came from a Country that had huge religious discrimination issues.
When I arrived the religious issue weren't prevalent here,you had to fight to gain acceptance, but it finally came.

What we have now is people coming to foreign countries and not wanting to accept a neutral stance on religion.

They want to accept the offerings of a welfare state, yet create havoc to destroy that state.

That may not seem fair but it it is accurate, as they are perpetrating acts of violence in the name of their religion, in their adopted Countries.

It, IMO, is impossible to reconcile that it is justified.

You can sugar it up and bless it it in a million ways, in the end it is just a $hitty act, that reflects badly on the rest of the genuine people.IMO


----------



## luutzu (8 June 2016)

sptrawler said:


> That's nonsense, I came to Australia as a kid 8 years old, I came from a Country that had huge religious discrimination issues.
> When I arrived the religious issue weren't prevalent here,you had to fight to gain acceptance, but it finally came.
> 
> What we have now is people coming to foreign countries and not wanting to accept a neutral stance on religion.
> ...




If Muslims are violent extremists because of Islam, why aren't there daily terrorist attack in Australia?

If Islam is evil and Muslims are more violent than others, how come there aren't more crimes and violence among Muslims than other ethnic groups?

So the argument that Islam is intolerant and Muslims are therefore bad and ill suited to civilized living... if that is true we'd be seeing prisons full of Muslim criminals.

So logic and factual, as well as historical and current events does not show Muslims to be any more violent or extremist or terrorising than any other group of people.

Let's pick the Chinese. All they do, it seem, is buying property and opening restaurants and accounting business right?

If Australia or the West starts to bomb China or take out Chinese "terrorists"... How do you reckon the Chinese community will react? How will some member of that community will react?

I'm not excusing terrorism or violence. What I am saying is that if people feel that "their people" or their religion are being killed and stepped on... some will resort to violence, or could be incited to act of violence.

If any of us are Muslims and read the news, we'd be pretty upset at how our religion and our culture and people are being treated. 


If we, non-Muslims, buy this bs about clash of civilisation and Islam being an evil cult and Muslims terrorists... you know what that really mean?

It mean a YES to go over there and bomb and drone them. Make the world safer and all that nonsense.

So millions of people in the ME have died; tends of millions displaced and are homeless; generations more will be lost and live through the consequences of modern war and its chemicals... and we just shrugged and not question too much whether an entire people deserve that.

But say the world is harsh and it's better to be safe than sorry - even if innocents must die to get one terrorist; or an entire country must be at war to overthrow a dictator who might fund terrorist...

Are we safer today?

Are our economy stronger?

Are our people richer?

The Iraqi War is estimated to have cost the US around $7 trillion dollars end of this year or so. Afghanistan will cost around $3Trillion.

When Libya was being bombed to free its people, the first day of bombing cost the alliance around $500 million in cruise missiles.

On and on...

Who wear these financial costs? What about blowbacks? Enhanced anti-terrorism expenses?

The homeland and its people will fork up the cash or forgo the necessary investment and maintenance... keep it up longer and other powers will rise up and dominate.


Sun Tzu said, there has never been an instance of a state having benefited from protracted warfare.

15 years and counting in the ME. The ME has not only gotten worst with there's no end in sight, the wars are also expanding.

Add to that the current fights with Russia; the potential conflict or appeasement with China...

Add to that the privatisation of public assets, the daily funnelling of public wealth to private cliques of amoral, disloyal multinational corporations and international capitalists with money being their only obligation and loyalty to.

Read up on how empires fell and see if we fit the pattern.


----------



## sptrawler (8 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> If Muslims are violent extremists because of Islam, why aren't there daily terrorist attack in Australia?
> 
> If Islam is evil and Muslims are more violent than others, how come there aren't more crimes and violence among Muslims than other ethnic groups?
> 
> ...




I understand what you say, but there are extremist issues happening, the press is restricted on what it can print re  race and religion.

I'm not saying the refugees are causing the majority of the problems, I think drugs are the root cause.

However there is an obvious new leaning toward violent crime, that has traits, of refugee origins by their nature.

There is always a place for migrants who want to further the Countries fortune and their own, but we don't have  the capacity to adopt more lifetime welfare recipients. From the news reports I read there is a huge problem with African gangs in the Northern Melbourne suburbs.

I know in a Perth suburb, the soccer club was treed, by a group of African guys.

Note I didn't mention religion.

However, if you want to mention religion, are we safer. NO

Do you worry about flying on an airline based in a Muslim Country? Yes.

Do you worry about visiting a Country with a high concentration of Muslim refugees? Yes


----------



## trainspotter (9 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> If Muslims are violent extremists because of Islam, why aren't there daily terrorist attack in Australia?
> 
> If Islam is evil and Muslims are more violent than others, how come there aren't more crimes and violence among Muslims than other ethnic groups?  Watched the news (globally) lately luutzu?
> 
> ...




Hmmmm last time I looked "Johnno's double plugger thong blue singlet brigade" was not listed as a terrorist group?



> *Abu Sayyaf Group*
> Listed 14 November 2002, re-listed 5 November 2004, 3 November 2006, 1 November 2008, 29 October 2010 and 12 July 2013
> *Al-Murabitun*
> Listed 5 November 2014
> ...




https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/Listedterroristorganisations/Pages/default.aspx

Because we have them under watch luutzu ... remember the Cronulla riots?? 

Try Google for instance PULEEEEEZE !






Don't forget the Koran ...




No wait it is all right now because it is happening in another country https://www.rt.com/news/345782-koran-hagia-sophia-greece/

Ummm Muslim is evil and more violent than others? You betcha it is ...



> Islamic terrorism is, by definition, terrorist acts committed by Muslim groups or individuals who profess Islamic or Islamist motivations or goals.* Islamic terrorists justify their violent tactics by selectively citing Quran and Hadith and interpreting these scriptures according to their own goals and intentions*.[1][2]
> 
> The highest numbers of incidents and fatalities caused by Islamic terrorism occur in the middle east, mainly Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria.[3] In recent decades, such incidents have occurred on a global scale, affecting not only Muslim-majority states in Africa and Asia, but also Europe, Russia, and the United States. Such attacks have targeted Muslims and non-Muslims.[4] In a number of the worst-affected Muslim-majority regions, these terrorists have been met by armed, independent resistance groups,[5] state actors and their proxies, and politically liberal Muslim protesters.[6]
> 
> Although the literal existence of Islamic terrorism is not disputed, some have criticized what they perceive to be the blanket usage of the term. Such use in Western political speech has variously been called "counter-productive," "unhelpful," "highly politicized, intellectually contestable" and "damaging to community relations."[7] This view, in turn, has been criticized by those who perceive it to be an act of evasion.[8]




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

Ohhhhhh we are not allowed to call a spade a spade anymore. FECKORF .. this is Australia mate !

Lindt' Cafe anyone anyone ??


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2016)

luutzu said:
			
		

> Second, research have shown that the financial costs spent on refugees are paid back by that refugee within 20 years, easy.




Could you give some references to that research ?

Is it from a refugee aid agency ?

Last time I looked most refugees were still on the dole after 5 years. Then we have Somalians running amok in Melbourne plus the terrorists (a small minority but still a threat).


----------



## qldfrog (9 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Could you give some references to that research ?
> 
> Is it from a refugee aid agency ?
> 
> Last time I looked most refugees were still on the dole after 5 years. Then we have Somalians running amok in Melbourne plus the terrorists (a small minority but still a threat).




As per usual Luutzu  based his history on his past experience, I have no doubt whatsoever that the greek,italian, lebanese christians, coopts, vietnamese, or some of the yougoslavs (sp?) migrants who moved here were a key positive asset to Australia, it will be a different matter for the bunch we are talking about;
2 to 3 generations later in France, they have collapsed the system. 
Learn from history not all refugees are the same but for that to sink in.....


----------



## Tisme (9 June 2016)

The Mullahs have been very methodical in forcing mass migration and with it the seeds of their future caliphates. 

Simply put the bosses of the mindless drones are looking for fertile fields to impoverish and de-educate just for the hell of it.


----------



## luutzu (9 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Could you give some references to that research ?
> 
> Is it from a refugee aid agency ?
> 
> Last time I looked most refugees were still on the dole after 5 years. Then we have Somalians running amok in Melbourne plus the terrorists (a small minority but still a threat).




I posted the study last year. From Australian Refugee Council, or something like that.

From memory, they found that within 15 or 20 years, on average a refugee would start their own business or be full time employed and would have paid enough taxes and financial contribution to have completely repaid the financial expenses the gov't have given them by then.

There was an article last year or so about some country town in Victoria economically benefited from having refugees settled there. From having labour intensive jobs, or just having jobs, filled by refugees that otherwise wouldn't have been filled because most Australian there go to the cities etc. 

Such stories are in line with the study. My own family's experience, and those refugees I know growing up are in line with that study's findings.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> I posted the study last year. From Australian Refugee Council, or something like that.
> 
> From memory, they found that within 15 or 20 years, on average a refugee would start their own business or be full time employed and would have paid enough taxes and financial contribution to have completely repaid the financial expenses the gov't have given them by then.
> 
> ...




Yes, but you aren't burdened with an archaic, debilitating religious dogma that sucks the life out of work ethics and promotes a hatred of anything that doesn't conform to that dogma.


As the frog said, not all refugees or immigrants are the same, they have to be judged on their own merits.


----------



## luutzu (9 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> As per usual Luutzu  based his history on his past experience, I have no doubt whatsoever that the greek,italian, lebanese christians, coopts, vietnamese, or some of the yougoslavs (sp?) migrants who moved here were a key positive asset to Australia, it will be a different matter for the bunch we are talking about;
> 2 to 3 generations later in France, they have collapsed the system.
> Learn from history not all refugees are the same but for that to sink in.....




Maybe France is collapsing because of Austerity and other neocon economic policies of gutting workers pay and rights.

I know it might be hard to believe, but the country we grew up in may not be the same country it is now - that the laws and regulations, the rights and industries it used to have, and made it strong... may have been gutted; the wealth of the nation may have been shifted and stolen... and it is not by the refugees or Muslims. 

Didn't France have a whole bunch of union strikes in recent weeks? Even the riot police are striking right? The pilot/airline unions also strike; truck drivers etc. etc.

Did the refugees cause the gov't to be harsher on French workers? Did they tell Hollande to rip up France's worker protection laws and make it easier for businesses to fire and lower wages acceptable?

So it might be the case that you are blaming the poor for being poor because they have no money. That while ignoring the possibility that they are poor because they are not being paid enough; that they are being taken advantage of; that opportunities are not there anymore.

And if the native have to compete with barely literate refugees for jobs (and losing), the disadvantages and economy is already in a hole long before refugees "steal their jobs".


----------



## luutzu (9 June 2016)

trainspotter said:


> Hmmmm last time I looked "Johnno's double plugger thong blue singlet brigade" was not listed as a terrorist group?
> 
> 
> 
> ...






If a Muslim is a terrorist, call him a terrorist.. and beat him up too if we can. 

No one is saying that Muslims are all saintly people.

Lindt' cafe' wasn't a terrorist attack. It was a hostage situation with a Muslim criminal who was about to serve prison and thought to attach himself to some "cause" because he can't kill himself.

----

I was referring to Muslims in Australia and in countries not currently at war or being blown up or invaded.

That if Islam and Muslims are just terrorists and uncommonly evil and nasty, you'd see more of them blowing stuff up and killing people or otherwise over represented in the maximum security prisons.

As for acts of terrorism overseas in the ME... it's called asymmetric warfare. Give both sides proper drones and jets and their terrorism will all be the same.

Whatever our politics, it is a bit much to blame people for not liking their country being invaded with foreign armies stationing on their ancestors' land. With a few night raids and collateral damages here and there, everywhere.

Yea, what's up with Islam and Muslims in the ME for being so angry man.


----------



## luutzu (9 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but you aren't burdened with an archaic, debilitating religious dogma that sucks the life out of work ethics and promotes a hatred of anything that doesn't conform to that dogma.
> 
> 
> As the frog said, not all refugees or immigrants are the same, they have to be judged on their own merits.




While I don't have research to prove it, I bet that Muslims who flee their homeland are not the crazy religious type we believe.

First, history have shown that Islam and Muslim in the ME were very "mild" (for lack of a better word). They were progressive and liberal and their gov't was secular and democratic. As was Iran before the US/CIA overthrow its secular and democratic president, replaced with the Shah, who was the weakest and least able son of his father's, who were then overthrown by the current Theocratic clerics.

Same with Egypt; Afghanistan I think was the work of the Soviets but the US did train the Taliban and what later became Al Qaeda.

So when imperial policies require the installation of dictators or strongman as puppets, the rule tend to drive people towards religious fanaticism with no hope for secular or democratic "values".

That and when you see the puppet master being "democratic", you tend to think that democracy might not be so good.


Second, those who are fanatics and extremely religious tend not to flee to the land of the infidels. It just doesn't work like that.

When South VN fell, a lot of VNese fisherman and farmers along the deltas did not rush off and leave. They even pulled back boats they see fleeing - betraying the Motherland and all that.


So while they might be too religious for our taste, is it violent? Is it criminal? If it is then our laws are there to take care of it. Otherwise, freedom means people can practise and believe in whatever right?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> Otherwise, freedom means people can practise and believe in whatever right?




Up to a point. Islam is imposed and ruled by violence. If a girl marries out of her religion she can be killed. Girls can be forced into arranged marriages. Boys are bought up to believe they are superior to infidels and women.

Islam is a pernicious culture that is contrary to our secular laws and a threat to democracy if it's allowed to get too big.

And Australia already has enough people. We have to keep borrowing money indefinitely to pay for schools, hospitals, roads, bridges etc just to accommodate what comes in from approved migration programs.

Enough is enough.


----------



## luutzu (9 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Up to a point. Islam is imposed and ruled by violence. If a girl marries out of her religion she can be killed. Girls can be forced into arranged marriages. Boys are bought up to believe they are superior to infidels and women.
> 
> Islam is a pernicious culture that is contrary to our secular laws and a threat to democracy if it's allowed to get too big.
> 
> ...




All religion is a threat to secular democracy.

Gay marriage is still an issue in Australia and most of the enlightened democracies. Abortion or contraception... ask a religious Christian or a priest what they think of it.

There isn't that much difference between the three Abrahamic religion. 

If we, say, follow the teachings of Christianity to the letter, there won't be any scientific advances and heretics will be locked up or burnt. But that's another topic.


And no, if any ethnic group or culture gets too big, it still does not threaten democracy or western values. 

The world has never been ruled or run by the majority anyway. So even if half the population are Muslims, if wealth is control by non-Muslims, then it will be the "values" of those with money and power that controls and run the country.

That is why most policies, anywhere, tend to favour the ruling elite. They never, rarely, for the benefit of the masses.

Look at the US... studies have shown that for the bottom 90% of Americans, their opinions and wishes don't count. 
-----

I think Australia is up there with the biggest countries having the smallest population.

It's no exaggeration that a country this size with 24M people won't stand much of a chance if a rising power decides to take it. And they will if our big brother is weakened or otherwise occupied with other ventures. So unless we're prepared to nuke the enemy (and risk being nuked ourselves)... you'd want more people on your side.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2016)

luutzu said:
			
		

> And no, if any ethnic group or culture gets too big, it still does not threaten democracy or western values.




Sorry, I have to disagree there.

There are places in the UK that want Sharia Law introduced so they can punish people for so called religious crimes. 

That's the way they enforce their will because they know that unless they do people will drift away from Islam just as they are drifting away from Christianity.


----------



## luutzu (9 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry, I have to disagree there.
> 
> There are places in the UK that want Sharia Law introduced so they can punish people for so called religious crimes.
> 
> That's the way they enforce their will because they know that unless they do people will drift away from Islam just as they are drifting away from Christianity.




All religious people want their religion "pure" and isolated or dominant. Doesn't mean it will happen.

That's what a secular democracy is about. 

I've heard news when that Sharia Law or certain part of the UK are Sharia enforced areas... it was debunked. And you're not going to find much support from people for that kind of crap anyway.

So while there will be/are cases of really religious refugees who were brought up and want to keep going their harsh religious practices on other people... they will either have to stop that or be forced to stop that kind of violence by the law.

Our parents used to beat us up as punishment. That's what parents do in the old country. They soon stop after we got here - and that's a good thing, we all thought 

I now use this "naughty corner" as punishment. Man, tell that to my parents and they'll laugh. But yea, being progressive and spoiling the kids is part of living with infidels


----------



## drsmith (10 June 2016)

The OSB monthly update for May shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ers/releases/monthly-operational-update-may-3


----------



## drsmith (12 June 2016)

This could get interesting,



> Indonesia: 35 Sri Lankans stranded on way to Australia
> 
> An Indonesian official confirmed Sunday that they will help an Indian-flagged vessel carrying around 35 Sri Lankans sail back into international waters after it was stranded off Sumatra island while reportedly headed to Australia.




http://aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/indonesia-35-sri-lankans-stranded-on-way-to-australia/588413


----------



## drsmith (13 June 2016)

drsmith said:


> This could get interesting,
> 
> http://aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/ind...stralia/588413



Mixed stories on the above today,



> Jakarta: A boat with 44 Sri Lankans who claim to be headed for Christmas Island remains marooned in bad weather off the Indonesian province of Aceh.
> 
> Indonesian authorities have provided the Sri Lankans with food but will not let them disembark because they do not have passports or valid travel documents.




http://www.smh.com.au/world/sri-lan...her-off-indonesian-coast-20160613-gpi11n.html



> An Indian-flagged vessel carrying around 35 Sri Lankans that was stranded in waters off Indonesia’s Sumatra island has set sail for Australia.
> 
> An official from the Lhoknga sub-district of Aceh province said Monday that Indonesian security forces escorted the vessel with ethnic Tamil on board into international waters Sunday night, according to Indonesian news outlet kompas.com.




http://aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/indonesia-ushers-boat-carrying-sri-lankans-to-australia/588746


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2016)

Another twist,



> A boat carrying 40 ethnic Tamils from Sri Lanka has returned to Aceh to ask for more fuel so that they can continue their journey to Australia.
> 
> The group, which includes one pregnant woman, returned to Lhoknga waters in Aceh Besar regency on Monday, after departing the previous day.
> 
> ...




http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/06/13/tamil-asylum-seekers-return-to-aceh-for-fuel.html


----------



## trainspotter (14 June 2016)

It seems the tail is wagging the dog Doc? Misinformation everywhere.


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2016)

A further twist,



> International Organisation for Migration Jakarta spokesman Paul Dillon said the IOM had been advised on Saturday that a boat had arrived in Lhoknga with foreign nationals.
> 
> 'We indicated we were prepared to assist with the provision of services IOM normally provides and we are just waiting to hear back,'
> 
> The IOM has offices all around Indonesia and helps the Government to move refugees, as does the UN Refugee Agency.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eeking-asylum-Christmas-Island-Australia.html


----------



## noco (16 June 2016)

Bill Shorten tells voters he has a united Labor Party and he controls the Labor machine but it is now very evident he has stretched the truth......He now has 50 of his members opposed to boat turn back and he has given into them......Folks you can bet the people smugglers have got their engines running already in hope Bill gets control of Government come July2

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...9/news-story/efd13f081744b0a366993d2bb2bd5c06

*LABOR will grant permanent settlement to thousands of asylum seekers who arrived by boat under the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd government.

In the most significant deviation from the Coalition government’s successful border protection policy, Labor would give its legacy caseload of 30,000 asylum seekers, who arrived illegally on 800 boats, a pathway to permanent residency in Australia as part of a policy to abolish Temporary Protection Visas, The Daily Telegraph reports.

The pledge comes as the depth of internal hostility to Bill Shorten’s promise to turn back boats has been revealed, with more than 50 Labor candidates now running for election having formerly opposed the plan.

Labor has also refused to rule out making changes to the hard-line Australian Border Force, or Operation Sovereign Borders set up by the Abbott government to stop the boats.*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fed...s/news-story/e6105eb5fe345d872cbb28a9b9e5e42f


----------



## noco (16 June 2016)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fede...bb28a9b9e5e42f

*Bill Shorten is poised to soften Australia’s border protection policies by granting permanent residency to nearly 30,000 asylum-seekers eligible who arrived by boat under the former Labor government.

The move is the most significant departure made by the Opposition Leader from the tough border protection policies introduced by the Coalition under former Prime Minister Tony Abbott with Labor set to scrap Temporary Protection Visas (TPVs).

This would see Labor providing its own legacy caseload of asylum-seekers with a clear pathway to permanent residency with Mr Shorten also holding out the prospect of making changes to Operation Sovereign Borders.

Immigration Minister Peter Dutton told The Daily Telegraphthat TPVs were a key element of any strong border protection policy and their removal would provide an incentive to people-smugglers to revive their illegal trade.

“Shorten Labor is showing all the signs of recklessness that saw 50,000 illegal maritime arrivals breach our borders under Rudd and Gillard Labor,” Mr Dutton said.*


----------



## drsmith (16 June 2016)

The following paragraph in a response to a Daily Telegraph front page article shows how much Labor is struggling internally with the policies that stop the boats that Labor currently claims to support,



> At worst, we’re offering permanent residency to 30,000 people on temporary protection visas. Even if that number is entirely correct it’s not a lasting solution to the problem - it’s more of an election stop gap. *We cannot be more clear that we fully intend to be as brutal to refugees as we can be while still calling ourselves progressive.*



Worst, as described above is pretty bad as it gives people smugglers the sugar to market their trade. Politically, it's a gift for the government.

Also interesting is the sentence in bold. It's clear from that that while now claiming to be in lock-step with the government, they see that policy mix as being brutal to refugees more than they do anything else. It further demonstrates their heart isn't in it.

http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/articl...denies-claims-theyll-show-compassion-refugees


----------



## drsmith (16 June 2016)

drsmith said:


> A further twist,
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eeking-asylum-Christmas-Island-Australia.html



Further on the above,



> Aceh/Jakarta. Indonesia will allow 44 Australian-bound asylum seekers from Sri Lanka to temporarily disembark in Aceh Besar district, Aceh, Thursday morning (16/06) for food and boat repair after they were stranded for five days at the waters off Lhoknga coast.
> 
> Aceh provincial administration spokesman Fran Dellian said the asylum seekers were allowed to come ashore after Vice President Jusuf Kalla sent a memo on Wednesday afternoon instructing Aceh Governor Zaini Abdullah to temporarily host the asylum seekers.
> 
> ...




http://jakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/...an-asylum-seekers-temporarily-disembark-aceh/


----------



## drsmith (17 June 2016)

If Labor weren't too happy with the front page of the Daily Telegraph, how happy are they going to be with Bill Leak ?


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2016)

Further on the above,



> Sri Lankan asylum seekers who became stranded in waters off Aceh more than a week ago during a failed attempt to get to Australia by boat will now have their status as refugees assessed, Indonesian authorities say. - ]




http://www.skynews.com.au/news/worl...1/asylum-seekers-off-aceh-to-be-assessed.html

I also note the boatload from Vietnam returned to country of origin.


----------



## dutchie (22 June 2016)

Labor will not turn back boats.


----------



## noco (22 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> Labor will not turn back boats.




With 50 Labor MPs and all the Greens going against Bill Shorten, I would say poor old barnacle Bill has lost control of our borders and the Labor Party......How can he say he has a united party when they fighting among themselves?

Another lie by Bill.....This man lies so much it is a wonder he can lay straight in bed.


----------



## orr (21 August 2016)

No Boasts this month?

As 'Who $hit in my pants' Dutton scrabbles for excuses and Morisson implores to the public the 'Nuremberg defence',' I was only following Abbott's orders...'
And Oh no, the holy of holy's ... 'The Australian',  Those with access could you please post up the article that describes our detention gulags as the equivalent to the medi*evil* practice of 'heads on pikes'.

Only if you can spare the time off polishing your statue of Jack van Tongeren doc.

_there's just a bit of free speech_


----------



## drsmith (21 August 2016)

The Malaysia solution as proposed by Labor at the time was a bad deal that would not have worked and nothing that's been said in the past week changes that.

It's now recognised by both major parties that, politically at least, the frontline defence is to turn boats back and it's this that has been central to the continuing success in preventing arrivals by boat as revealed by the latest monthly update released on Friday for July.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ation-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-july-2


----------



## noco (21 August 2016)

orr said:


> No Boasts this month?
> 
> As 'Who $hit in my pants' Dutton scrabbles for excuses and Morisson implores to the public the 'Nuremberg defence',' I was only following Abbott's orders...'
> And Oh no, the holy of holy's ... 'The Australian',  Those with access could you please post up the article that describes our detention gulags as the equivalent to the medi*evil* practice of 'heads on pikes'.
> ...




You cannot deny the fact that boat people held in detention are well feed, clothed, get good medication and the kids are getting the necessary education...Compare that with the millions in UN refugee camps who are denied all the goodies they get on Nauru......What is the UN and Human Rights doing about these people in ME?.....They are sure having their 2 pence worth in criticizing Australia.

Those held in detention have been told that will not be settled in Australia......They have the choice, either return to their home land, or settle in PNG or Cambodia....If they cannot make a choice that is their problem...If that is a deterrent to stopping more people smuggling operation so be it.....


----------



## explod (21 August 2016)

With the growing populations near to our northern borders there will come a day where no amount of defence will stop people storming across our shores. 

Remember after the two world wars our governments back then created employment programs for our returning troops.   I believe in these times that a conscription program should be created from our current youth on the dole.   With experienced leadership on the ground we could open up huge areas across the top end of Australia.   Our new conscrips could then be tasked to supervise the asylum seekers to work and develop this land so that they could in fact feed and shelter themselves.   It would certainly only cost a fraction of the one million for each over the last three years that has been wasted.  Run the right way,  without corrupt private enterprise making a quid out of it,  the north could become a permaculture paradise. 

Some of the innovative self sustaining systems I have come to see among Greens members properties here at Bendigo are mind boggling. 

For the protection that we do need to our north, the answer is to utilise the people and resources just waiting there for free.  Instead of arguing lets start pushing objective plans for a win win. 

And for those who think the Greens are sitting on the fence with no idea of solutions,  think again.


----------



## bellenuit (21 August 2016)

explod said:


> I believe in these times that a conscription program should be created from our current youth on the dole.   With experienced leadership on the ground we could open up huge areas across the top end of Australia.   Our new conscrips could then be tasked to supervise the asylum seekers to work and develop this land so that they could in fact feed and shelter themselves.




There is no way in a million years that the Greens would ever accept forcing Asylum Seekers to live in a particular area of Australia. They would always demand full equal rights with every other citizen. They have already indicated that asylum seekers / refugees being forced to live in tropical countries is a form of torture.

I agree in principal with providing asylum seekers with a degree of protection should they only locate to those parts of Australia that we think need expansion and increased population. But that creates second class citizens. The left would simply not tolerate that and in any case, how could we possibly police it. Most would drift to the big cities where there are already enclaves of people with their same cultural and ethnic values.


----------



## drsmith (21 August 2016)

explod said:


> And for those who think the Greens are sitting on the fence with no idea of solutions,  think again.



That almost reads like a threat.

I've never had any doubt that there's an ideological agenda behind the Greens position on this and that that agenda is not in our national interest.


----------



## explod (21 August 2016)

drsmith said:


> That almost reads like a threat.
> 
> I've never had any doubt that there's an ideological agenda behind the Greens position on this and that that agenda is not in our national interest.




Sorry if there was an edge sounding there.   Its just that some on here describe us in very draconian ways at times and it does get up my skirt a bit.


----------



## noco (21 August 2016)

explod said:


> With the growing populations near to our northern borders there will come a day where no amount of defence will stop people storming across our shores.
> 
> Remember after the two world wars our governments back then created employment programs for our returning troops.   I believe in these times that a conscription program should be created from our current youth on the dole.   With experienced leadership on the ground we could open up huge areas across the top end of Australia.   Our new conscrips could then be tasked to supervise the asylum seekers to work and develop this land so that they could in fact feed and shelter themselves.   It would certainly only cost a fraction of the one million for each over the last three years that has been wasted.  Run the right way,  without corrupt private enterprise making a quid out of it,  the north could become a permaculture paradise.
> 
> ...




I think you are behind the times plod.

 Doesn't current government already have plans to develop the northern part of Australia with new dams for irrigating new crops to feed the south East Asian region.....I once read where the government has some 100 sites for selection to build a dam.

But then again I guess our dear sweet Greenies would raise lots of objection as to reason why the government could build dam here or there because it is the home of the rare pink tongue green frog or the red nose wombat......No No No, you can't chop down that tree because there is koala lining in it.......The Green tree huggers would be there in the rent a crowd....I think you have overlooked the point to develop land for crops, it will require land clearing which the Greens are firmly against.....So how do you overcome that aspect?

There is one thing I do agree with you and I have said it before, if those dole bludgers don't want to work give them the alternative, work of go in the army.


----------



## explod (22 August 2016)

noco said:


> I think you are behind the times plod.
> 
> Doesn't current government already have plans to develop the northern part of Australia with new dams for irrigating new crops to feed the south East Asian region.....I once read where the government has some 100 sites for selection to build a dam.
> 
> ...



You dont need dams for permaculture hydroponics.   Just small individual spaces and very little water. In fact,  covered over no water. 

I could supervise ten people for an immediate start to feed and care for ten families. I know a number of other ex professionals who would do it also as volunteers.   In fact,  if i could not supervise 100 conscript troops I'd eat my hat.   And I'd soon have the best dozen or so sorted and promoted to take over. 


This stuffing around for many years to waste millions on dams is crapola.   This country needs some imagination built into real action now.  Time for drastic measures and its called " having a go"


----------



## noco (22 August 2016)

explod said:


> You dont need dams for permaculture hydroponics.   Just small individual spaces and very little water. In fact,  covered over no water.
> 
> I could supervise ten people for an immediate start to feed and care for ten families. I know a number of other ex professionals who would do it also as volunteers.   In fact,  if i could not supervise 100 conscript troops I'd eat my hat.   And I'd soon have the best dozen or so sorted and promoted to take over.
> 
> ...




Plod, you are all over the shop with your posts.

One minute you are talking about opening up vast amounts of land in the Northern region of Australia (your post # 4039) regarding land clearing which would need vast amounts of water for irrigation to feed crops and now you are talking about permaculture hydroponics.

I have not heard of any large commercialized hydroponic ventures that have been successful.....A friend of mine tried it up in Mareeba and he went down the gurgler with it......Hydroponics is for hobby farmers in my opinion.

So we don't need dams.....well my oh my....You have lost me or was it because I mentioned those RAT BAG Greenies who want to stop progress and development with their whacky protests.


----------



## explod (22 August 2016)

noco said:


> Plod, you are all over the shop with your posts.
> 
> One minute you are talking about opening up vast amounts of land in the Northern region of Australia (your post # 4039) regarding land clearing which would need vast amounts of water for irrigation to feed crops and now you are talking about permaculture hydroponics.
> 
> ...




Again you are not taking it all in. 

Hydrponic permaculture is done on a small scale.   Each refugee family could have thier own with their own dwelling.   The idea is to have thousands of these across the breadth of northern Australia to populate the place with people who are self sufficient and no drain on society. 

My idea is probably a bit rough round the edges but with thought we could do better than the Dutton nuthin stalemate to nowhere of the moment. 

It would certainly not cost a million per person over three years as it has on Manus Island.


----------



## noco (22 August 2016)

explod said:


> Again you are not taking it all in.
> 
> Hydrponic permaculture is done on a small scale.   Each refugee family could have thier own with their own dwelling.   The idea is to have thousands of these across the breadth of northern Australia to populate the place with people who are self sufficient and no drain on society.
> 
> ...




But about these vast amounts of land you speak of to be opened up for development  or is that just with a forked tongue once I mentioned the whacky Green who would do every thing in their power to stop it.


----------



## explod (22 August 2016)

noco said:


> But about these vast amounts of land you speak of to be opened up for development  or is that just with a forked tongue once I mentioned the whacky Green who would do every thing in their power to stop it.




The Greens have changed enourmously in the last few years.  A few ingrained socialists in NSW but they are being isolated and left behind by more educated progressives. 

The Jewish population in the middle east have turned deserts into food productive havens by these methods.   It is our empty deserts I have in mind.


----------



## Ijustnewit (22 August 2016)

explod said:


> Again you are not taking it all in.
> 
> Hydrponic permaculture is done on a small scale.   Each refugee family could have thier own with their own dwelling.   The idea is to have thousands of these across the breadth of northern Australia to populate the place with people who are self sufficient and no drain on society.
> 
> ...




I'm sorry if I'm misreading your above post , whilst I agree with perma-culture and it's benefits as I've personally  seen it in action . Low water usage and the the use of no chemical pest control ect . 
The comment I can not get my head around is that you believe that you can hand land over to refugees to "populate " the place . Probably like the ones on the ABC news with 16 kids and 3 wives that are crying that there is no money to feed the family. How could you possibly think the Government could keep these peoples on the land they are given ? It is a well known fact the refugees are settled in regional areas and are asked to spend a certain time frame there , once that has is expired most flock to the big cities to join with others of their same culture. 
Do you not think that these same peoples would not apply to the human rights commission to have access to welfare , medicare and other government funded services ? I'm sorry but your idea is typical of Green one world ideology , society doesn't work like this for good reasons. Money doesn't grow on trees and all you will be creating is another poor and neglected slum as we see in those regions overseas , but you want it on our doorstep.


----------



## Tisme (22 August 2016)

explod said:


> The Greens have changed enourmously in the last few years.  A few ingrained socialists in NSW but they are being isolated and left behind by more educated progressives.
> 
> The Jewish population in the middle east have turned deserts into food productive havens by these methods.   It is our empty deserts I have in mind.




I think the idea is to bulldoze forests, fauna, flora and old growth rather than interfere with finely balanced eco-structure of a wasteland.


----------



## explod (22 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I think the idea is to bulldoze forests, fauna, flora and old growth rather than interfere with finely balanced eco-structure of a wasteland.




That's it.


----------



## explod (23 August 2016)

Well Tisme we were on the right track.   Last nights Q@A discussed just those points. 

Monash academic Erin Watson-Lynn stated that Australia was missing an enormous opportunity in not utilising the labour and talents of the assylum seekers and they should be viewed as a boon for the country.  Such people from other countires in tbe past proved entrepreneurial and most likely to start business.  

I know many of you think old Plod's a bit nuts.   However having worked in a Research Department for five years and being a creative (and lettered) artist I can attest that "from ideas, crazy or not comes innovation" . 

Yeh,  perhaps conscription is a bit over the fence but feel we could pass laws to enforce these people to stay and develop within a stipulated place for a stipulated period.  And freedom to society would only come when they have achieved set out objectives.  If we keep business out of it and keep it supervised under government personnell and statutory regulations it could be done. 

So instead of going crook tell us the next move to improve or create a better idea.  .


----------



## drsmith (23 August 2016)

explod said:


> Monash academic Erin Watson-Lynn stated that Australia was missing an enormous opportunity in not utilising the labour and talents of the assylum seekers and they should be viewed as a boon for the country.  Such people from other countires in tbe past proved entrepreneurial and most likely to start business.



And it remains the case that this is a separate point to whether or not a country is in control of its broader immigration program of which asylum seekers are a part.


----------



## noco (23 August 2016)

explod said:


> Well Tisme we were on the right track.   Last nights Q@A discussed just those points.
> 
> Monash academic Erin Watson-Lynn stated that Australia was missing an enormous opportunity in not utilising the labour and talents of the assylum seekers and they should be viewed as a boon for the country.  Such people from other countires in tbe past proved entrepreneurial and most likely to start business.
> 
> ...




You would have BUCKLEYS chance of getting those refuges or illegal immigrants from moving out of their comfort zones in West Sydney where they can pray in their Mosques 3 or 4 times a day and where they can enjoy the social security cheques sent to them every fortnight for their 3 wives and 15 or 16 kids.
We have problems trying to get Australians working in remote places and that is why we have so many coming here on 457 visas....Further more what experienced do those illegals have to work the land.....Oh I see your answer coming, get the government to spend more money training them.


----------



## noco (23 August 2016)

explod said:


> Well Tisme we were on the right track.   Last nights Q@A discussed just those points.
> 
> Monash academic Erin Watson-Lynn stated that Australia was missing an enormous opportunity in not utilising the labour and talents of the assylum seekers and they should be viewed as a boon for the country.  Such people from other countires in tbe past proved entrepreneurial and most likely to start business.
> 
> ...




You would have BUCKLEYS chance of getting those refuges or illegal immigrants from moving out of their comfort zones in West Sydney where they can pray in their Mosques 3 or 4 times a day and where they can enjoy the social security cheques sent to them every fortnight for their 3 wives and 15 or 16 kids.
We have problems trying to get Australians working in remote places and that is why we have so many coming here on 457 visas....Furthermore what experienced do those illegals have to work the land.....Oh I see your answer coming, get the government to spend more money training them......Supply them free house, machinery, fertilizer and insecticides.

Great idea.


----------



## explod (23 August 2016)

noco said:


> You would have BUCKLEYS chance of getting those refuges or illegal immigrants from moving out of their comfort zones in West Sydney where they can pray in their Mosques 3 or 4 times a day and where they can enjoy the social security cheques sent to them every fortnight for their 3 wives and 15 or 16 kids.
> We have problems trying to get Australians working in remote places and that is why we have so many coming here on 457 visas....Furthermore what experienced do those illegals have to work the land.....Oh I see your answer coming, get the government to spend more money training them......Supply them free house, machinery, fertilizer and insecticides.
> 
> Great idea.




Go back to sleep.   We are discussing those on Manus Island ole Pal

If you take note my idea is  for them to create thier own envioronment and pay thier own way.   And in a sense they will remain unded house arrest so to speak untill they do.  Read my previous posts together for context. 

The idea that nothing can happen without large spend is wrong.


----------



## noco (23 August 2016)

explod said:


> Go back to sleep.   We are discussing those on Manus Island ole Pal
> 
> If you take note my idea is  for them to create their own environment and pay their own way.   And in a sense they will remain under house arrest so to speak until they do.  Read my previous posts together for context.
> 
> The idea that nothing can happen without large spend is wrong.




Wake up ole pal...it ain't gonna happen.....Read the papers...listen to the news.....those on Manus have 3 choices, either go home from where they came or settle in PNG or Cambodia.....

They have been told 100 times, they are not coming to Australia......Your idea is therefore irrelevant.


----------



## explod (24 August 2016)

noco said:


> Wake up ole pal...it ain't gonna happen.....Read the papers...listen to the news.....those on Manus have 3 choices, either go home from where they came or settle in PNG or Cambodia.....
> 
> They have been told 100 times, they are not coming to Australia......Your idea is therefore irrelevant.




Ideas are just that,  and as the deadlock goes further other ways will have to be sought.   The forum is a good place to work on new ways for the future.   I suppose if you've not had creative ideas before its a bit tough to imagine anything but the lobbyists behind polititions dictating it.  Sit back in the chair in front of the box and watch as a mute.

Not this ole duck,  I'll keep shovelling for improvement till I die.


----------



## noco (24 August 2016)

explod said:


> Ideas are just that,  and as the deadlock goes further other ways will have to be sought.   The forum is a good place to work on new ways for the future.   I suppose if you've not had creative ideas before its a bit tough to imagine anything but the lobbyists behind polititions dictating it.  Sit back in the chair in front of the box and watch as a mute.
> 
> Not this ole duck,  I'll keep shovelling for improvement till I die.




Yeah so long as it suits the Water Melon Party agenda.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 August 2016)

Having refugees working on public projects and paying their way is a far better idea than having them rotting away in concentration camps.

If they do well they get to stay, if they don't they go back to Nauru.

This idea should be further explored. The current system is a no win situation for anyone, including our national image.


----------



## Tisme (24 August 2016)

I see the refugees from our backyard nation are doing what we expect South Pacific POMS to do and whinge about how we locals treat them. We give them refuge, opportunity, good wine and what do they do when some idiot gives them an ear ... they whiney.


----------



## moXJO (24 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Having refugees working on public projects and paying their way is a far better idea than having them rotting away in concentration camps.
> 
> If they do well they get to stay, if they don't they go back to Nauru.
> 
> This idea should be further explored. The current system is a no win situation for anyone, including our national image.




Better to be viewed as racist then having to deal with this:


> Germany advises citizens to stockpile food and water in case of apocalyptic disaster scenario




Just having to plan for that indicates a problem.

Keeping the flow of economic refugees to a trickle is what's needed. Give it a few years and Germany will probably be using much harsher measures.


----------



## noco (24 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Having refugees working on public projects and paying their way is a far better idea than having them rotting away in concentration camps.
> 
> If they do well they get to stay, if they don't they go back to Nauru.
> 
> This idea should be further explored. The current system is a no win situation for anyone, including our national image.




Do you know the true meaning a concentration camp or are you exaggerating like SHY and that leftie Gillian Triggs.

I would hardly describe Nauru as a concentration camp when those illegal boat people are free to roam the Island at will.

No matter what hare brain scheme you and Explod come up with, they ain't coming to Australia.....That has been made clear......If the government changed their policy it would be tempting for the people smugglers to start up business again and wouldn't the Labor Party love that?


----------



## drsmith (25 August 2016)

The child senator who boldly proclaimed OSB to be dead in late 2013 has become a casualty of its success.

She's no longer the Greens immigration spokesman.


----------



## drsmith (13 September 2016)

The August monthly update shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann.../releases/monthly-operational-update-august-3

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ion-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-august-2


----------



## drsmith (18 October 2016)

The September monthly update shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...leases/monthly-operational-update-september-5

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-september-3


----------



## Tisme (18 October 2016)

Apparently there are many turnbacks that are a state secret. 

Let's hope the mob isn't building an Armada to invade by sheer numbers.


----------



## noco (18 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Apparently there are many turnbacks that are a state secret.
> 
> Let's hope the mob isn't building an Armada to invade by sheer numbers.




And how did you get into the state secret?

Do you have a link to back up your statement?


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2016)

noco said:


> And how did you get into the state secret?
> 
> Do you have a link to back up your statement?




Interesting paper by  Bastardi, Uhlmann and Ross in 2011 confirmed what is well known in Marketing sciences: evaluating information is always heavily weighted by what a person wants to believe. I too suffer from that problem by suspecting you are incapable of breaking away from your Newscorp Liberal Party of Australia and unhappiness inculcations. 

Id est I would be wasting my time.


----------



## noco (19 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Interesting paper by  Bastardi, Uhlmann and Ross in 2011 confirmed what is well known in Marketing sciences: evaluating information is always heavily weighted by what a person wants to believe. I too suffer from that problem by suspecting you are incapable of breaking away from your Newscorp Liberal Party of Australia and unhappiness inculcations.
> 
> Id est I would be wasting my time.




Just more rhetorical b*ll $hit form a high ego megalomaniac....No link...all talk.

And just for your information my break away from the Liberal Party will be at the next state election when Pauline Hanson will get my consideration....She will definitely hold the balance of power.


----------



## drsmith (8 November 2016)

The October monthly update shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-october-5

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...on-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-october-2


----------



## luutzu (8 November 2016)

drsmith said:


> The October monthly update shows another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-october-5
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...on-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-october-2




Eternal Vigilance against the barbarian hordes was what kept Rome from ever collapsing.


----------



## Tisme (8 November 2016)

luutzu said:


> Eternal Vigilance against the barbarian hordes was what kept Rome from ever collapsing.




Now it resides in the Vatican as one of the three regional centres of world power, the other two being the centre of the empire; the City of London (The Firm) and Washington DC (obedient to treaty of Paris , thus to the British Monarchy and the Firm). The Vatican itself is also financially managed by the Firm (Rothschilds, Masons/Knights Templar and British Monarchy) with it's monies deposited in the Bank of England and the US Federal Reserve.

The Firm owns the corporations that own the Bank of London (1812), US Federal Reserve (1913). 

Much to Noco's shock, the Fabian Society, 'capitalist elites in left-wing clothing' is a very broad church and touted to be the political hand of the Firm making sure empire builders don't get too close to the sun where they reside. Socialism and Facism are great crowd controllers and conversely Emperor impedances. 

See you thought you were making a funny luutzu and didn't realise the Egyptian/Roman empire lives on and they parade it before your very eyes by marking there territories with obelisks (Cleopatra's Needle), The Masonic built DC Obelisk and the Vatican's Heliopolis Obelisk.

Beware the Lion's paw of the Crown.


----------



## sptrawler (8 November 2016)

drsmith said:


> The October monthly update shows another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-october-5
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...on-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-october-2




Funny how many didn't want to stop in France, but where prepared to live in squalor at the Calais jungle.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&...tDZQ1pUmG84zlSDGcCu4VjAA&ust=1478687631050263

Just to access the U.K welfare system, why not build a life in Europe? lol

Meanwhile, we are driving down the living standards of Australians, because we can't afford the welfare system. 
While fighting to encourage illegal immigration, that we can afford (according to Labor), go figure that out.lol


----------



## sptrawler (8 November 2016)

luutzu said:


> Eternal Vigilance against the barbarian hordes was what kept Rome from ever collapsing.



No cutting the aqueducts caused Rome to collapse, when the hordes came in, the living standards fell because it couldn't support the hoard.

While the system is in balance everyone enjoy's the spoils, when the drain become too much, everyone except the very rich fall to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## noco (8 November 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Funny how many didn't want to stop in France, but where prepared to live in squalor at the Calais jungle.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&...tDZQ1pUmG84zlSDGcCu4VjAA&ust=1478687631050263
> 
> ...




Thanks to Rudd/Gillard's stupidity of open borders allowing in those 50,000, we are still hemorrhaging money from the welfare system to keep these people in luxury.......some have 3 wives and 17 kids and never go to work.

Gillrard, the Fabian socialist knew exactly what she was doing and that was to ruin the economy of Australia....Undermine the economy and revert to socialism and central control....If you need more information on my statement, just ask me.


----------



## sptrawler (8 November 2016)

noco said:


> Thanks to Rudd/Gillard's stupidity of open borders allowing in those 50,000, we are still hemorrhaging money from the welfare system to keep these people in luxury.......some have 3 wives and 17 kids and never go to work.
> 
> Gillrard, the Fabian socialist knew exactly what she was doing and that was to ruin the economy of Australia....Undermine the economy and revert to socialism and central control....If you need more information on my statement, just ask me.




Actually it really doesn't matter Noco, as long as the majority are prepared to go down to the lowest common denominator, it is fine.
Then they all have a common goal, to get back to the lifestyle they once had.
Everyone acknowledges we can't afford our welfare system, but we have less people working and more on pensions.
So what do we do, take more welfare recipients, who pays for it?
Well we can increase taxes and make our labour more expensive and less competitive, or we can increase taxes on the non working, or we can take more off the welfare recipients.
The other option is to tax mining companies on a per Kg basis, they don't like it, but the other options will run dry.
As will the minerals, so a per kg tax on all minerals, is a sensible option.IMO


----------



## drsmith (6 December 2016)

The November monthly update shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-november-3

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...n-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-november-2


----------



## luutzu (6 December 2016)

drsmith said:


> The November monthly update shows another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-november-3
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...n-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-november-2





Woohoo! 

Go back ya illegal economic migrants. If we give you some food, where are we going to get the money to give corporations their tax cuts? And where's the monies to give investors who's "losing" on their property investment? 

Ey? Ey?


----------



## qldfrog (6 December 2016)

sptrawler said:


> Actually it really doesn't matter Noco, as long as the majority are prepared to go down to the lowest common denominator, it is fine.
> Then they all have a common goal, to get back to the lifestyle they once had.
> Everyone acknowledges we can't afford our welfare system, but we have less people working and more on pensions.
> So what do we do, take more welfare recipients, who pays for it?
> ...



And as someone in the mining industry, a tax per kilo of moved material be it ore or not to ensure no "rape the deposit"strategy is used: 
where a miner just get the cheap easy accessible ore while ruining the lower grade. very common, Australia looses the resource forever, the miner get the highest per tonne processed returned and f*ck the aussies.....Would also help for rehabilitation, the phase which happesn when a miner changes its name and collapse once a mine deposit is over and the Oz taxpayer comes to repair the damages
Am I cynical? No just worked in that industry for more than 20y
Note, I know there is a deposit amount to rehab purpose...which is always orders of magnitude lower than actual costs
But this is off subject, and who cares with all these migrants already there full of young blood and genius,hardworking will, we are saved as Europe has been and will be


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2016)

qldfrog said:


> And as someone in the mining industry, a tax per kilo of moved material be it ore or not to ensure no "rape the deposit"strategy is used:
> where a miner just get the cheap easy accessible ore while ruining the lower grade. very common, Australia looses the resource forever, the miner get the highest per tonne processed returned and f*ck the aussies.....




And tax gas in the same way, but only the gas being exported. That way domestic consumers including industry get a price advantage.


----------



## luutzu (6 December 2016)

qldfrog said:


> And as someone in the mining industry, a tax per kilo of moved material be it ore or not to ensure no "rape the deposit"strategy is used:
> where a miner just get the cheap easy accessible ore while ruining the lower grade. very common, Australia looses the resource forever, the miner get the highest per tonne processed returned and f*ck the aussies.....Would also help for rehabilitation, the phase which happesn when a miner changes its name and collapse once a mine deposit is over and the Oz taxpayer comes to repair the damages
> Am I cynical? No just worked in that industry for more than 20y
> Note, I know there is a deposit amount to rehab purpose...which is always orders of magnitude lower than actual costs
> But this is off subject, and who cares with all these migrants already there full of young blood and genius,hardworking will, we are saved as Europe has been and will be




When we refer to immigrant and boat people screwing up the place, are we sure we're not referring to a yacht as a boat and a jet with proper visas as an immigrant?

I could be wrong but I thought it's just human nature that when you are down on your luck, fighter jets and drones flying over your heads all day everyday that you either get your kids, grab your family and run like hell or die sitting still... when you're in that situation and some stranger offer you safe haven, a helping hand... you know, it's very hard for you to just then sit on your azz and complaint and cause trouble.

You might even work extra hard, send money back to help those relatives left behind; might even go a bit out of your way to do more than just pay your taxes to contribute to those who once helped you... maybe.

If, on the other hand, you're rich and the world is your oyster... you know, jetting around and have your cards accepted everywhere. Not too much loyalty or hard work I'd imagined.


----------



## noco (6 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And tax gas in the same way, but only the gas being exported. That way domestic consumers including industry get a price advantage.




Off topic.:topic


----------



## noco (6 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> When we refer to immigrant and boat people screwing up the place, are we sure we're not referring to a yacht as a boat and a jet with proper visas as an immigrant?
> 
> I could be wrong but I thought it's just human nature that when you are down on your luck, fighter jets and drones flying over your heads all day everyday that you either get your kids, grab your family and run like hell or die sitting still... when you're in that situation and some stranger offer you safe haven, a helping hand... you know, it's very hard for you to just then sit on your azz and complaint and cause trouble.
> 
> ...




And 63 million  others around the world just like them....Jumping the que is the wrong way.

Work hard and send money back home?????????......90% of the 50,000 Gillard and Rudd let in are unskilled and illiterate......3 wives and 17 kids all on welfare and a burden to the Australian tax payer for years to come. 

Luu, you have a strange aspect on illegal boat people.


----------



## luutzu (7 December 2016)

noco said:


> And 63 million  others around the world just like them....Jumping the que is the wrong way.
> 
> Work hard and send money back home?????????......90% of the 50,000 Gillard and Rudd let in are unskilled and illiterate......3 wives and 17 kids all on welfare and a burden to the Australian tax payer for years to come.
> 
> Luu, you have a strange aspect on illegal boat people.




Three wives and 17 kids? Who would want to stay home when they have that many headaches? I'd be out working 3 jobs just to get away 

Come on noco sir, stop subscribing to the Murdoch press; or even Fairfax. Would save a couple bucks and a lot of misinformation.


We really should stop blaming victims and poor people for the world's trouble. Almost always, people who are poor, who are refugees and have to live on the charity of others... they're always the one that got screwed - either directly or indirectly by someone else's grand strategy gone wrong (or as intended, depends on the a hole).


----------



## noco (7 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> Three wives and 17 kids? Who would want to stay home when they have that many headaches? I'd be out working 3 jobs just to get away
> 
> Come on noco sir, stop subscribing to the Murdoch press; or even Fairfax. Would save a couple bucks and a lot of misinformation.
> 
> ...




So I guess you agree with the Greens and 26 Labor MPs, the way to go is to open the flood gates at our borders and let the 61 million in to Australia.....Pssst.
:dimbulb::aus:


----------



## qldfrog (7 December 2016)

noco said:


> So I guess you agree with the Greens and 26 Labor MPs, the way to go is to open the flood gates at our borders and let the 61 million in to Australia.....Pssst.
> :dimbulb::aus:



where do you see 61 millions, there are conservatively 2 to 3 billions people on this planet would would be better off living on welfare in Oz than they are at their home now, add the future prospect for their kids, and some conservative 5% only of these ready to do the jump and able to do so logistically and you got a minimum of 100 to 150 millions new economic migrants at the door if the flood gate open.


----------



## luutzu (7 December 2016)

noco said:


> So I guess you agree with the Greens and 26 Labor MPs, the way to go is to open the flood gates at our borders and let the 61 million in to Australia.....Pssst.
> :dimbulb::aus:




Maybe we could set an example. For the world, and for our own kids. 

The example we've set lately is that money talks and bs drown at sea or die in concentration camp.


If we, the West, don't care for anyone but ourselves... then stop going around the world to "liberate" a bunch of people. Drop coupons on them instead of bombs. Stop inferring in their internal affairs. 

Anyway, repeating here the same old point.. but you do realise that to get people to hate and kick down one group of people is to prepare them to hate and kick down another group of people, right?

It starts with the obviously horrible Muslims and their barbaric Islam; then onto "economic migrants" and illegal queue jumping cheats who's so lazy they got on a leaky boat or an overcrowded raft, set afloat the seas and if they don't die, they'd walk hundreds of miles, beg to be let in... then after all that will leech off the state, retire and go invade.

So it starts there on those savages... then it moves onto the lazy single mums; then the stupid lazy "students" who want free education; then the stupid lazy and corrupt union; then the freaking lazy sick and poor people who can't afford medicine; then the old farts who now "can't find a job" because there's only one door at any K-Mart and Bunnings - and the less lazy kids are now tending that too...

You get the idea.

Don't believe me? Look around.


----------



## luutzu (7 December 2016)

qldfrog said:


> where do you see 61 millions, there are conservatively 2 to 3 billions people on this planet would would be better off living on welfare in Oz than they are at their home now, add the future prospect for their kids, and some conservative 5% only of these ready to do the jump and able to do so logistically and you got a minimum of 100 to 150 millions new economic migrants at the door if the flood gate open.




Are there 2 to 3 billion economic migrants enroute to Europe and the West? Or only a few millions from war torn countries?

Money is important, but it is not everything.

There are human dignity, there are safety, there are family and friends... or just being alive. Such things are more important than receiving some cash from the ever generous white man. 

Have we even ask if those refugees know about the welfare benefits? Sure they know the West is rich, but how many would believe, or care, for the freebies? They care enough to risk their lives? Drop everything and go strike gold?


Tell you what... let's drop you off in Syria, or Bangladesh. Give you $US1000 and a nice mobile phone and Cucci bags... and if you make it alive to Germany or Australia, I'll give you $50,000 a year - for life.

Deal?


----------



## drsmith (9 January 2017)

The December monthly update shows another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-december-5

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...n-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-december-2


----------



## luutzu (9 January 2017)

drsmith said:


> The December monthly update shows another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-december-5
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...n-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-december-2





Woohoo. The celebrations just keep on coming. There's Christmas, Boxing Day, New Year and now... no more terrorists or welfare cheats (ISIS in Europe and parliamentarians expense account not included).


----------



## drsmith (9 January 2017)

luutzu said:


> Woohoo. The celebrations just keep on coming. There's Christmas, Boxing Day, New Year and now... no more terrorists or welfare cheats (ISIS in Europe and parliamentarians expense account not included).



Happy no boats to you too.


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2017)

luutzu said:


> Woohoo. The celebrations just keep on coming. There's Christmas, Boxing Day, New Year and now... no more terrorists or welfare cheats (ISIS in Europe and parliamentarians expense account not included).



The problem is Iuutzu, welfare for Australians, is being cut as it is unaffordable. 
So obviously people will get out of shape, when people from other countries trek half way around the World, to avail themselves of welfare that is already in short supply.


----------



## luutzu (12 January 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is Iuutzu, welfare for Australians, is being cut as it is unaffordable.
> So obviously people will get out of shape, when people from other countries trek half way around the World, to avail themselves of welfare that is already in short supply.





Welfare are never cut because they are unaffordable. They're cut because "our" elected "representatives" generally see themselves as our superior. Superior in all things, by all measures.

So there is that nobility of blood and classiness that just do not see why the great unwashed would want anything more than being talk nicely to. 

That and why in the world would any psycho with power want their decisions challenged and questioned? Give them enough to eat, enough time to learn and ponder and they'll start to put those free time and knowledge of the legal system to good use - challenging you. 

Hence, one of the richest countries in the history of the world, with a tax collection system as effective as anything ever built, with tax always being collected and increasing... that same country can't afford jack all (for the poor and welfare cheats).

But corporate tax cuts, parliamentary expense accounts, cushy pensions... those are sacrifices we have to make.

If we look at histories and class system... it wasn't long ago that there's that master/slave, upstairs/downstairs, coolies and idle, useless gentleman of blue blood. Might surprise us plebs that that's still the case - just it's not PC to talk about it.

In other words, the poor are being mistreated because... well, because they're poor and so are of no use to anyone in power. So they should be made examples of, set aside and get their possessions clean out to make the city pretty for public events.

We don't need to go back to the times of Dickens to see examples of these kind of entitlements and disdain for the poor. 

A few weeks ago some idiots at the top in Colorado (?) decided that what better ways to solve the homelessness problem in the city than to have its cops confiscate the blankets and warm clothing of those without shelter - in winter! 

Maybe that's a bit better than some council in the UK putting pigeon wires where the homeless would sleep.

So sometime people of privilege and power, or their servants, just kick to poor just for fun. To put them in their place. It's never because the country can't afford to help, never that the rich need the extra tax benefits... just for the fun of it.

See, back in the times of Dickens they do these stuff to their own (White) people... now they do it to their Whites and coloured people... but wink wink that it's really to stop the Muslims and "other" people from thieving us.

-----
Yes. People all of a sudden decided to pick up what they can shoulder and trek all the way to Europe and the West... just so they can live on welfare handouts.

The daily terrorist bombings, the sanctions and embargoes that starves them, the droning and gunfires... that's just all fake. Nothing scary or deadly about it.

----

I do know a few true blue White Aussies who are very poor. And honestly, even I'm pissed off for them. So can't blame any for thinking that it's other ethnic groups who did it to them and their country.

But if we think a bit about it, the masters of Man are never really that much into their own people. The common folks are just there to be use, exploited, clean the streets, sweeps the chimneys, clear the sewage and go die for their country.

Don't believe me... ask any other ethnic pure country. See how their gov't deals with them of the same blood and colour and religion.


----------



## Tisme (12 January 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is Iuutzu, welfare for Australians, is being cut as it is unaffordable.
> .




Much of the money going to Muslim families of men with multiple breeder cows. Probably more of the welfare monies redirected to naval ships, which would otherwise be cruising around doing drills or mothballed ready to spring into action,  too late to defend against an aggressive islamic enemy.

Insofar as the successful intercepts tone of this thread, of course all intercepts are successful, it's the landings that go under the radar that are unaccounted for, but might be quantified if immigration raided Muslim families in the capitals and asked for proofs and documents.


----------



## luutzu (12 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Much of the money going to Muslim families of men with multiple breeder cows. Probably more of the welfare monies redirected to naval ships, which would otherwise be cruising around doing drills or mothballed ready to spring into action,  too late to defend against an aggressive islamic enemy.
> 
> Insofar as the successful intercepts tone of this thread, of course all intercepts are successful, it's the landings that go under the radar that are unaccounted for, but might be quantified if immigration raided Muslim families in the capitals and asked for proofs and documents.




Is that why Captain Abbott wanted to randomly pull anyone off the streets to check if they're illegals or not? That wasn't a prank to violate Aussies privacy and freedom and stuff on their own streets.


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## Boggo (12 January 2017)

Copy of letter from The Liberal Party to Sarah Hansen Young  
All other sympathisers who have publically voiced their concerns should receive their notifications by mail in the coming weeks.
-----
_Dear Respondent.

Our administration takes matters of illegal immigrants seriously and your opinions were heard loud and clear here in Canberra.

You will be pleased to learn thanks to the concerns of people like yourself we are creating a new department here to be called 'Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers' program, or L.A.R.K. for short.

In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided, on a trial basis, to divert several terrorists and place them in homes of concerned citizens such as yourself, around the country, under those citizens personal care.

Your personal detainee has been selected and is scheduled for transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence next Monday.

Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud is your detainee, and is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your letter of complaint about his current detainee conditions.

You will be pleased to know that we will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with your recommendations.

Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what is described as his 'attitudinal problem' will help him overcome those character flaws.

Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural differences. We understand that you plan to offer counselling and home schooling, however, we strongly recommend that you hire some assistant caretakers.

Please advise any Jewish friends, neighbours or relatives about your house guest as he might get agitated or even violent, but we are sure you can reason with him.
He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless in your opinion, this might offend him.
Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers. We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills either in your home or wherever you choose to take him while helping him adjust to life in our country.

Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or other females except sexually since he views females as a form of property, thereby having no rights, including refusal of his sexual demands.
This is a particularly sensitive subject for him.

You also should know that he has shown violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with the dress code that he will recommend as more appropriate attire. I'm sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka over time. Just remember that it is all part of respecting his culture and religious beliefs' as described in your letter.

You take good care of Ahmed and remember that we will try to have a counsellor available to help you over any difficulties you encounter while Ahmed is adjusting to Australian culture.

Thanks again for your concern. We truly appreciate it when folks like you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job and care for our fellow man.

Good luck and God bless you._

L.A.R.K.


----------



## drsmith (27 February 2017)

Junuary was another month of happy no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/monthly-operational-update-january-2

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...on-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-january-3


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## Tisme (2 March 2017)

What do your base those reports on? 

Please post the naval reports


----------



## drsmith (2 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> What do your base those reports on?
> 
> Please post the naval reports



Forget the conspiracy theory line. You've acknowledged elsewhere the boats have been stopped.


Tisme said:


> Rudd stopped the boats


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2017)

drsmith said:


> Junuary was another month of happy no boats.



February was also another month of happy no boats as was March.

Also encouraging to see is the happy voluntary returns to country of origin from offshore detention centre increase in Feb and March. From 1 in Jan, this increased to 10 in Feb and 16 in March taking the total to 585 since the inception of OSB.

There were 25 more happy returns to country of origin with the interception of an asylum boat trying to reach Australia in March. The people smugglers are still trying.



> During this same period, Australian authorities detected and intercepted a vessel attempting to reach Australia illegally. The Australian Government subsequently worked with the Government of Sri Lanka to return 25 people consistent with Australia's protection obligations.




http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...tion-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-march-3

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...s/releases/monthly-operational-update-march-4

Feb,

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...n-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-february-3

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...eleases/monthly-operational-update-february-5


----------



## luutzu (9 April 2017)

drsmith said:


> February was also another month of happy no boats as was March.
> 
> Also encouraging to see is the happy voluntary returns to country of origin from offshore detention centre increase in Feb and March. From 1 in Jan, this increased to 10 in Feb and 16 in March taking the total to 585 since the inception of OSB.
> 
> ...





Heep heep, hooray. 

You do know that it is not illegal to seek asylum, right? Even if the applicant is later found to have lied, it is still not illegal for them to claim then have their claim assessed for asylum.

What we, in our nobility and sticklers for the legal code, have done is to order our Border Patrol to not ask.

Don't ask, don't tell, don't know.

Hence, we assume that people who cramp into boats are all seeking a fun week or two at sea with a chance to get on welfare and live the rest of their life in heaven, on our dime.

So off they go. Float off somewhere. It's not like there's any war around the world or something.


----------



## noco (9 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Heep heep, hooray.




Hence, we assume that people who cramp into boats are all seeking a fun week or two at sea with a chance to get on welfare and live the rest of their life in heaven, on our dime.

Unfortunately the young single Muslims won't find 72 virgins up there in heaven as promised.


----------



## luutzu (9 April 2017)

noco said:


> Hence, we assume that people who cramp into boats are all seeking a fun week or two at sea with a chance to get on welfare and live the rest of their life in heaven, on our dime.
> 
> Unfortunately the young single Muslims won't find 72 virgins up there in heaven as promised.




I heard somewhere that that 72 virgin business for terrorism is something some racist made up and attributes to Muslims and the teaching of Islam. That it is not true, not written or taught in Islam.

Probably worth checking out though. Else you'd keep blaming them for things they don't blow themselves up for.

You know, kinda like the US and alliance of the willing being blamed for liberating the Middle East for oil when in fact it's all for freedom and saving the children. Like how Clinton's secretary of state once said it's tough but ultimately "worth it" that 500,000 Iraqi children were starved or otherwise died from malnutrition and preventable diseases because of US sanctions.

I mean, you can't say it's "worth it" that some half million kids have to starve to death, then suddenly after a decade or so decided it's time to free them by destroying what's left of their country.

That and shrugging off the deaths of some 14 children in a botched raid; or accidentally taking out some 200 civilians in a strike on a school [could have been a Mosque]... but then got all furious and all heart ached that you literally directly start another war when your enemy kill 74 or so civilians. 

That's as bad as banning all refugees from the very same country you are claiming have a dictator for a leader and will go to war to avenge the death of those civilians you order to ban from ever seeking refuge.

The mind boggles at all these double talks and hypocrisy.


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2017)

It's so much better for the country to see these boat arrivals leaving under a Coalition government than it is to see them arriving under a Labor government.

Happy no boats.


----------



## luutzu (9 April 2017)

drsmith said:


> It's so much better for the country to see these boat arrivals leaving under a Coalition government than it is to see them arriving under a Labor government.
> 
> Happy no boats.




It's always better to break laws and obligations when you can get away with it.

Not sure what message and example it would send though. 

It's like Tony Sopranos kicking the homeless and disabled in front of his kids because why not... then turn around and tell the kids to seriously look after each other. Because we're family!


----------



## drsmith (9 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's always better to break laws and obligations when you can get away with it.



That's what people smugglers think. Look how much their attempts have slowed under the example the current Coalition government has sent.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> That's as bad as banning all refugees from the very same country you are claiming have a dictator for a leader and will go to war to avenge the death of those civilians you order to ban from ever seeking refuge.




That's the reason why we have an approval system of refugee intake so we make sure that we take the people who really need asylum and not those who are economic refugees that are willing to buy their way in.

We can't take everyone who wants to come here, there have to be rules, verification and vetting otherwise the voters will say "don't take anyone".


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

drsmith said:


> That's what people smugglers think. Look how much their attempts have slowed under the example the current Coalition government has sent.




You sure about the zero arrival being due to tough thinking by the Liberals?

Not, I don't know, don't ask/don't tell, drag you outta here and if I see you again I'll sink your boat kinda deal?


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That's the reason why we have an approval system of refugee intake so we make sure that we take the people who really need asylum and not those who are economic refugees that are willing to buy their way in.
> 
> We can't take everyone who wants to come here, there have to be rules, verification and vetting otherwise the voters will say "don't take anyone".




No one's saying just let any boat people become citizens.

I know there are some who are economic refugees; I know there are people smugglers too. 

Does that mean we either tow their boats away from our waters, or we let them all in?

Those are false choices.

Other options includes... work with a third country, vet any asylum application while they're under some sort of temporary protection visa. 

Anyway, there's a reason why no body give a dam about poor people.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Other options includes... work with a third country,




Rudd tried to do that with Malaysia but the Libs scuttled that deal. Now we are doing it with the US. Any problem with that that you can see ?


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Rudd tried to do that with Malaysia but the Libs scuttled that deal. Now we are doing it with the US. Any problem with that that you can see ?




Not enough coffee money?

Our policy towards refugees have been pretty stupid, and I mean stupid, not just immoral and all that fairy airy stuff.

What we, both Labor and Liberals, have been doing is to deny there is such a thing as refugee problem. We demonise asylum seekers. Blaming them for all wanting to come to Australia because we're a rich country - no kidding, why in the world would anyone, seeking asylum or not, want to go to a poor country if given the choice?

So in us calling them all illegals, wanting to take advantage of Australia.... we're given all other countries a pass and take on the responsibility ourselves. Ey, we said it's our problem, so we better deal with it. Right?


What if we're a bit smarter. And somewhat kinder and realistic about the situation.

We go to the UN, recognise and bang loudly that there is a refugee crisis in the Asia/Pacific region. All the freedom loving, humane countries of the world ought to be involved, particularly those within the region.

Then some third country chip in with an island or two; all chip in with a camp or two; and all countries get into the refugee vetting business.

This way, the costs and burden are shared. 

It will also mean that genuine refugees get a chance to live in a country that doesn't kill them. Doesn't have to be in Australia. 

But if I'm cynical about it, I'd figured that if we were to do these kind of thing, how will that Aussie company of ours is going to get paid all those billions all to themselves.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> We go to the UN, recognise and bang loudly that there is a refugee crisis in the Asia/Pacific region. All the freedom loving, humane countries of the world ought to be involved, particularly those within the region.
> 
> Then some third country chip in with an island or two; all chip in with a camp or two; and all countries get into the refugee vetting business.
> 
> This way, the costs and burden are shared.




Yes I think it's a great idea if all countries take a share of refugees. We take our share, how about Japan takes some (28 in the last 12 months), so there is a freedom loving humane country to convince.


----------



## qldfrog (10 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Rudd tried to do that with Malaysia but the Libs scuttled that deal. Now we are doing it with the US. Any problem with that that you can see ?



obvious one is people pretending to come here to be stopped and have a ticket for the US, and obviously getting stranded at our cost as I doubt the US will take many ;


----------



## Tisme (10 April 2017)

What was the fracas about a boat arriving a short while back, but Dutton couldn't talk about it because it was his portfolio and the Minister wouldn't approve?


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Rudd tried to do that with Malaysia but the Libs scuttled that deal. Now we are doing it with the US. Any problem with that that you can see ?




Rumpy, I think if you some home work on Malaysia, it was Gillard who tried to do the deal with Malaysia and it was not so much the blame on the Libs for stopping it but the fact that Malaysia was not a party to the UN Human Rights Commission......Malaysia has an atrocious record on human rights.

https://epress.lib.uts.edu.au/journals/index.php/mcs/article/viewFile/3755/4007


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## noco (10 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes I think it's a great idea if all countries take a share of refugees. We take our share, how about Japan takes some (28 in the last 12 months), so there is a freedom loving humane country to convince.




How many has rich Saudi Arabia taken?


----------



## Ves (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> How many has rich Saudi Arabia taken?



Estimates range from any where between 500,000 and 2.5 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrians_in_Saudi_Arabia

Saudi Arabia doesn't actually report 'refugee' numbers to the UNHRC because they're not party to the protocol on refugees.  Obviously this causes what I would euphemistically describe as 'confusion' with some Western Media outlets.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anhvinh-doanvo/europes-crisis-refugees_b_8175924.html


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes I think it's a great idea if all countries take a share of refugees. We take our share, how about Japan takes some (28 in the last 12 months), so there is a freedom loving humane country to convince.




Just recently that Japan does take in refugees. They took in some 10,000 VNese refugees back in the 80s or so.

I was surprised by that because I always thought Japan was what Pauline Hanson said - no immigrants or refugees intake. So who knows, they might also be taking in some currently as well, just they don't advertise it. Much like Australia and others are taking in some, but wanting to appear tough.

Problem with these tough stance is that there are wars and there is a humanitarian crisis since at least Bush the Younger decided to liberate a couple of countries. 

Anyway, it's above what paygrade would be to see why we're doing what we're doing. Maybe to raise and admit there is a refugee crisis would humanise the Muslims too much. And we know you can't keep producing refugees with all these wars and put the population in a position where they either force you to end the bloodbath or taking in refugees. 

Better for the arms industries and imperial objectives if they're all terrorists we need to liberate somehow but aren't so sure of them being non-terrorist so while we take the terrorists out we should just ignore these would-be terrorist? 

Best not to think about it. Else it'll come up as pretty stupid.


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> No one's saying just let any boat people become citizens.
> 
> I know there are some who are economic refugees; I know there are people smugglers too.
> 
> ...




And plenty of radical Muslims snuke in with the illegals.


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> And plenty of radical Muslims snuke in with the illegals.




Know how we're told we're there all over the Middle East to liberate and free people who need and deserve our help? 'cause there are, by implication, good Muslims being oppressed by dictators and despots and terrorists.

hmmm... since we haven't won and peace is not yet at hand. Logic would tell you that there are at least some who are genuine refugees. Seeing how their house are literally blown to bits.


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Know how we're told we're there all over the Middle East to liberate and free people who need and deserve our help? 'cause there are, by implication, good Muslims being oppressed by dictators and despots and terrorists.
> 
> hmmm... since we haven't won and peace is not yet at hand. Logic would tell you that there are at least some who are genuine refugees. Seeing how their house are literally blown to bits.




So why don't the so called good Muslims rise up against the radicals and the stupid ancient Sharia law....Surely the good Muslims must outnumber the bad Muslims.


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> So why don't the so called good Muslims rise up against the radicals and the stupid ancient Sharia law....Surely the good Muslims must outnumber the bad Muslims.




Aren't the Alliance of the Willing backing the good Muslims? So there are good Muslims there fighting the bad ones.

There's this funny joke from Jimmy Dore about Trump's speech before launching them 70 tomahawk: When terrorists kill people, it's really really bad. It kill God's beautiful babies. When "we" drop bombs on them, they're good Christian bombs that dodges babies.

Another one from retired US Colonel Mike Wilkerson (Chief of Staff to Colin Powell): All deaths are horrible. Whether it's by a knife or a gas attack or a drone strike - it all end horribly for the victims.


In short, maybe we should stop buying into these nonsense about one method of killing by certain group of people being "better" than another method of war and savagery. Maybe the wars could end with that kind of thinking.


----------



## drsmith (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> You sure about the zero arrival being due to tough thinking by the Liberals?



Due to their policy mix and, most importantly, turning boats back after being elected in 2013.

Happy no boats.


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Aren't the Alliance of the Willing backing the good Muslims? So there are good Muslims there fighting the bad ones.
> 
> There's this funny joke from Jimmy Dore about Trump's speech before launching them 70 tomahawk: When terrorists kill people, it's really really bad. It kill God's beautiful babies. When "we" drop bombs on them, they're good Christian bombs that dodges babies.
> 
> ...




So how do you propose to go about it and which authority will implement and such action?

The UN are the ones who should be doing something about it but they are a toothless tiger and so corrupt so don't expect anything from them in fact they are probably condoning Islamic terrorism just as the SHY from the Greens has demonstrated.


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

drsmith said:


> Due to their policy mix and, most importantly, turning boats back after being elected in 2013.
> 
> Happy no boats.




So they succeed not because their tough stance scared away the people smugglers and economic refugees, but work because they drag any "asylum seekers" away?


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> So how do you propose to go about it and which authority will implement and such action?
> 
> The UN are the ones who should be doing something about it but they are a toothless tiger and so corrupt so don't expect anything from them in fact they are probably condoning Islamic terrorism just as the SHY from the Greens has demonstrated.





Go about doing what? Get the good Muslims to fight the bad ones?

My guess is they'd do what any military power have always done: you pick one group of Muslims who will work with you to fight against those who are up against you. The ones that are with you are the good guys, obviously. The ones who's against you are terrorists.

So when Bin Laden and the Afghan Taliban was on the CIA payroll, fighting the Soviets, they are friends of John Rambo and Reagan invites them over to the White House for tea and a tour of Texas. When they turn against the CIA and US... you know.

Same thing in Iraq past few years. ISIS in Iraq is obviously bad. Its affiliates in Syria that work with US are alright kind of moderates; the hardcore ISIS are obviously bad and Assad is of course a monster unlike the Saudis.


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Go about doing what? Get the good Muslims to fight the bad ones?
> 
> My guess is they'd do what any military power have always done: you pick one group of Muslims who will work with you to fight against those who are up against you. The ones that are with you are the good guys, obviously. The ones who's against you are terrorists.
> 
> ...




That does not answer my question......As per usual you beat around the bush.

There has to be some kind of higher authority to take control like the UN who sit on their hands and do nothing.......It is useless trying to negotiate with Muslims as they have their set agenda.


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> That does not answer my question......As per usual you beat around the bush.
> 
> There has to be some kind of higher authority to take control like the UN who sit on their hands and do nothing.......It is useless trying to negotiate with Muslims as they have their set agenda.




That higher authority is the US isn't it? Well, to be fair, it's the US and any country with a proper military they can send abroad and a few hundred nukes kept in the shed at home. So that's the US and Western allies, China, Russia, probably India and maybe Brazil if they get their act together.

Looks funny, I'd definitely watch it:


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> That higher authority is the US isn't it? Well, to be fair, it's the US and any country with a proper military they can send abroad and a few hundred nukes kept in the shed at home. So that's the US and Western allies, China, Russia, probably India and maybe Brazil if they get their act together.
> 
> Looks funny, I'd definitely watch it:





I thought the United Nations was formed after WW11 to take care of rouge nations...To prevent any more wars and conflicts around the world.......Isn't that why the USA pay some 22% of their funding......Isn't that now the reason why the USA are considering terminating their involvement with the UN in the next 2 years?


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> I thought the United Nations was formed after WW11 to take care of rouge nations...To prevent any more wars and conflicts around the world.......Isn't that why the USA pay some 22% of their funding......Isn't that now the reason why the USA are considering terminating their involvement with the UN in the next 2 years?




I heard somewhere that since WWII, the US has been involved in 200 (two hundred) foreign "intervention". Another fun fact, since its Independence from Britain, the US have only had some 25 years where it wasn't involved in any war.

Now, why would the US, or any other big and small powers, would ever want to fund any club that doesn't do what it wants them to do?

So why did the US, being the only remaining superpower at the end of WWII, having literally half the world's wealth... why did they want to organise and be part of the UN?

A cynical person would say that that's because such institution permit the US and its allies a cover of legitimacy in whatever it chooses to do. Be that bashing the Soviets for its aggression or taking out nationalist movement leaders (aka, terrorists or communists). 

Since then, more and more former colonies became independent and join the club. The US loses its supreme position and so can't get that rubber stamp all of the time. Hence the trashing of the UN and threats to defund it.

But that's just a threat anyway. The UN does serve some purpose now and then... such as using its International law on freedom of navigation and law of the sea, or whatever it's called. Use that to make China look bad, which it should look and feel bad for, but then China just shrugged and military bases they build.


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> I heard somewhere that since WWII, the US has been involved in 200 (two hundred) foreign "intervention". Another fun fact, since its Independence from Britain, the US have only had some 25 years where it wasn't involved in any war.
> 
> Now, why would the US, or any other big and small powers, would ever want to fund any club that doesn't do what it wants them to do?
> 
> ...




It is called the United Nations involving many countries whom are supposed to play their part in any  conflict around the world......The USA being one of the more financial nations most likely get the most involvement but on the other side of the coin the UN are such a weak and corrupt organization, the USA has to take some things into their own hands.

https://factly.in/united-nations-budget-contributions-by-member-countries/


----------



## luutzu (11 April 2017)

noco said:


> It is called the United Nations involving many countries whom are supposed to play their part in any  conflict around the world......The USA being one of the more financial nations most likely get the most involvement but on the other side of the coin the UN are such a weak and corrupt organization, the USA has to take some things into their own hands.
> 
> https://factly.in/united-nations-budget-contributions-by-member-countries/




Maybe it's one of those user-pay system.

The UN, like any organisation that does not fund itself, operates at the wish of its donors. So it will be strong if its donors put in the muscle behind it; weak if those donors don't give two dimes. 

Countries, US included, don't put money into the UN and just let a democratic vote or whatever happen. They put in the cash so they can push their weight around.

For example, when a UN sub-committee (or whatever the proper name is), released a report finding Israel to be an apartheid state illegally colonising what was left of Palestine... the report was made public without authorisation from the UN Sec. General.

Why? Because US and Israel would not permit its publication. 

When it was published, the UN blah blah then we see the committee's chief resigning because she would not retract and apologise for hurting Israel's feelings with facts and international laws.

Anyway, the UN have to pick their battles. Maybe let injustices and starvation in Palestine go on as it has but get to have some money to feed kids in Somalia and elsewhere where the small terrorists are doing the dirty work.


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Maybe it's one of those user-pay system.
> 
> The UN, like any organisation that does not fund itself, operates at the wish of its donors. So it will be strong if its donors put in the muscle behind it; weak if those donors don't give two dimes.
> 
> ...




The UN has changed to what it was 70 off years ago......It is now being corruptly run by the Greens left of politics.......More money goes into administration they is distributed to help poor countries.

So what do you think will happen to the UN when the USA pullout  within 2 years as they intend to withdrawing their 22% financial support ?


----------



## luutzu (11 April 2017)

noco said:


> The UN has changed to what it was 70 off years ago......It is now being corruptly run by the Greens left of politics.......More money goes into administration they is distributed to help poor countries.
> 
> So what do you think will happen to the UN when the USA pullout  within 2 years as they intend to withdrawing their 22% financial support ?




If the US pulls out, China and Russia will step in. Then you we will see how whatever China and Russia wants to do is called the "global consensus", its taking of other people's seas and countries are "peacekeeping" and advancing... socialism? 

But don't worry though, the Muslims and African terrorists and dictators will still be bad. Just maybe they're now our kind of bastards and not their kind.


----------



## Ves (11 April 2017)

noco said:


> I thought the United Nations was formed after WW11 to take care of rouge nations...To prevent any more wars and conflicts around the world.......Isn't that why the USA pay some 22% of their funding......Isn't that now the reason why the USA are considering terminating their involvement with the UN in the next 2 years?



The best part of the "USA is pulling out of the UN" story is that it's not even a new one.  Certain interests have been trying to pass legislation to make it happen for decades now.

I doubt it will actually happen.  But it's a nice fairy tale.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2017)

Ves said:


> I doubt it will actually happen. But it's a nice fairy tale.




Trouble is that there are too many bad guys and not enough good guys in the UN. If Russia can forever veto intervention in places like Syria and support his gassing mate then no progress will ever be made.

Plus you have the Muslim countries who never liked the West and would turn us into caliphates if they could.

I think we are heading for a breakup of the UN into separate camps, Western democracies vs the Rest. It may or may not happen in Trump's time but I think people in Western countries are getting sick of their money getting flushed down the loo, giving aid to countries led by despots who give the aid to their soldiers instead of to the starving.

Something has to break eventually.


----------



## Ves (11 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we are heading for a breakup of the UN into separate camps, Western democracies vs the Rest. It may or may not happen in Trump's time but I think people in Western countries are getting sick of their money getting flushed down the loo, giving aid to countries led by despots who give the aid to their soldiers instead of to the starving.



I honestly don't think that this will happen either.

I'm not sure how much you think Western countries (or any member nation) pay into the United Nations budget but in the scheme of things it's a drop in the ocean. The annual budget isn't any more than $10 billion.  For some reason I don't think money is an issue.

In fact,  if you look into the matter closely the USA has a history of being in debt to the UN because it's congress fails to authorise the payment of its dues time and time again.  It's not like they're a golden child by any stretch of the imagination,  despite people boasting they (eventually) pay 22% of the budget contributions.

The indirect benefits enjoyed by the larger member states of being in the UN far outweigh any financial contributions that are made to it IMO.  Actually by merely having a UN office in New York the USA pretty much recoup their annual contributions.

Perhaps the UN is reconfigured one day as you predict,  but it ain't happening because a senator from Alabama is trying to pass a bill in Congress and it certainly ain't happening because of financial reasons.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2017)

Ves said:


> and it certainly ain't happening because of financial reasons.




There are not only financial reasons. There are a lot of tinpot little African countries (apologies to Yes Minister) run by despots and Muslim countries who don't like the West and side with Russia and China and out vote the West on security issues. China buys the votes of little Pacific nations with aid and there goes more votes from the West. That's the reason you see no more than lip service paid to despots when the UN should really be the world's police force breaking up civil wars like Syria and cracking down on human rights abuses in China and Muslim countries instead of just sitting on their backsides.

The UN is rapidly departing from what we would consider Western values of human rights and democracy and into irrelevance in world affairs at best and subversiveness at worst.

If this goes on them democracies will start asking if the UN has any role at all in maintaining world peace. It's been pretty moribund as far as I can see.


----------



## Ves (11 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There are not only financial reasons. There are a lot of tinpot little African countries (apologies to Yes Minister) run by despots and Muslim countries who don't like the West and side with Russia and China and out vote the West on security issues. China buys the votes of little Pacific nations with aid and there goes more votes from the West. That's the reason you see no more than lip service paid to despots when the UN should really be the world's police force breaking up civil wars like Syria and cracking down on human rights abuses in China and Muslim countries instead of just sitting on their backsides.
> 
> The UN is rapidly departing from what we would consider Western values of human rights and democracy and into irrelevance in world affairs at best and subversiveness at worst.



There are a few things here that I don't think you're considering:

*The five permanent members of the UN Security Council (China, France, Russia, USA and the UK) have veto power.  This enables them to prevent the adoption of a draft Security Council resolution, regardless of its level of international support.  Your point above re vote buying sounds pretty mute to me. In fact,  I would argue the opposite is true,  the bigger countries dominate the UN. Have a look at the veto powers that have been used on certain issues. 

*The five permanent members of the UN Security Council are all nuclear super powers.  Everyone else is a temporary member.  In fact,  they all meet privately before presenting their resolutions to the full council.  There are criticisms that are the reverse of what you've stated,  traditionally the UN has been seen as a hereditary club controlled by the three big Western powers.  The big boys with their nasty toys dominate the agenda and prevent anyone else from reaching the same level of influence.

*That the super powers who dominate the UN actually don't care to interfere on a human rights level with some of the Muslim countries because there is nothing in it for them?  The UN security council arguably has always focused on conflicts in strategic areas to the Western super powers.   Whilst the UNHRC does do some good work in the background,  it's pretty hard to do much without the support of the Security Council in most cases.


----------



## Ves (11 April 2017)

Any way,   we've probably gone off track a bit.  We can both sit here and criticise the UN all day for a heap of different reasons.

But my main point was that the US isn't leaving the United Nations any time soon.  It doesn't hurt them financially and they can sit there and veto whatever they want if they're a part of it.

edit:  It'd be an absolute clusterfuck for financial markets and would destabilise economies worldwide if they did decide to leave.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2017)

Ves said:


> Whilst the UNHRC does do some good work in the background, it's pretty hard to do much without the support of the Security Council in most cases.




You have just stated the UN's faults, which we all know.

The bottom line is that the UN as dominated by the Security Council will rarely ever agree on security issues because  their own interests take precedence and one or more members are likely to veto resolutions put up by "the other side". 

Therefore nothing will be achieved and the UN is basically useless.

Let's face it, a properly functioning UN would not allow a situation like Syria to arise. It's not performing any functions that would prevent or minimise the slaughter or bring the situation to an end.


----------



## Ves (11 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You have just stated the UN's faults, which we all know.
> 
> The bottom line is that the UN as dominated by the Security Council will rarely ever agree on security issues because  their own interests take precedence and one or more members are likely to veto resolutions put up by "the other side".
> 
> ...



Don't have the time to reply in any depth tonight,  but I did find a post someone made on this matter which was pretty interesting:

https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-the-USA-left-the-UN



> *What would happen if the USA left the UN?*
> 
> *Diplomatic and Political Chaos*
> 
> ...




I think it answers a lot of your questions.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2017)

Ves said:


> Don't have the time to reply in any depth tonight,  but I did find a post someone made on this matter which was pretty interesting:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-the-USA-left-the-UN
> 
> ...




I don't agree with all the supposed ramifications detailed in that article.

If the US and other western nations left or refused to participate in the UN and instead formed their own alliance then a number of the supposed downsides could be averted.

Anyway, it's theoretical, but with Trump at the helm of the US, who knows.


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

Ves said:


> I honestly don't think that this will happen either.
> 
> I'm not sure how much you think Western countries (or any member nation) pay into the United Nations budget but in the scheme of things it's a drop in the ocean. The annual budget isn't any more than $10 billion.  For some reason I don't think money is an issue.
> 
> ...




This is the UN budget for 2016/2017......$5.4 billion and they employ 22,421.
https://www.un.org/press/en/2015/gaab4164.doc.htm


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

Ves said:


> Don't have the time to reply in any depth tonight,  but I did find a post someone made on this matter which was pretty interesting:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-the-USA-left-the-UN
> 
> ...




With the cut in funding to the UN by the USA, that could see the see the beginning of the end for the UN.....The USA may not need to pull out of the UN......There is more ways than one to skin s cat.

Russia contributes 3.088% and China 7.923%

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...arm-at-reports-trump-will-order-sweeping-cuts


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

Ves said:


> Don't have the time to reply in any depth tonight,  but I did find a post someone made on this matter which was pretty interesting:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-the-USA-left-the-UN
> 
> ...




Your link certainly spells out the way the USA could cause chaos  in the UN.


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...nt-cut-immigration-to-make-housing-affordable


----------



## Ves (12 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If the US and other western nations left or refused to participate in the UN and instead formed their own alliance then a number of the supposed downsides could be averted.



Of course it would remove the downsides and create its own new advantages (mainly removing barriers currently in the way of taking certain actions).  But in the process that creates new downsides.

Without a central body such as the UN diplomatic barriers are broken and it is much harder to maintain or enforce an International Law system. Yes the UN is deeply bureaucratic and at times arguably unproductive,  but by being so it provides certain barriers to conflict and creates a situation where 'soft' power must be used.

The whole point of barriers to action and the need to use 'soft' power is that it provides much more global stability. 

In removing the status quo provided by the UN you are creating a situation where different 'blocks' of countries will have their own sets of rules or expectations,  or their own standards within shared alliances.  As you've admitted this in reality already happens and you consider the UN as a roadblock to action.  But without this roadblock it is much easier to take unilateral action as the consequences and oversight are removed.  There would be no globally enforceable law because every 'block' of countries would have their own idea what this is.  The only way to resolve some conflicts would be bloody war (see: history).

History is littered with examples of what happens when you make unilateral action easier. However there were no nuclear weapons in any other time of history like there is now.


----------



## McLovin (12 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If the US and other western nations left or refused to participate in the UN and instead formed their own alliance then a number of the supposed downsides could be averted.




Europe tore itself apart because of a fractured alliance system. How else does one angry Serb cause the death of 40 million people?


----------



## drsmith (28 May 2017)

There was no boats in April.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2017)

*Peta Credlin:    Muslim polygamy bedded down by PC bureaucrats*

I    LIKE to think growing up in a small country town gave me a good grounding in    the fundamentals because *Middle    Australia is a place where common sense is still (thankfully) common, people    work hard, right is right and wrong is wrong.*

I    used to think everywhere else was the same too but 16 years working in    politics threw that idea out the window.

Not    only are *we    fast becoming a nation where a small few like to lecture the    majority*,    we’re *also    being taken for a ride by a growing number of people who exploit the benefits    and goodwill of the very country they might live in, but refuse to    join.*

*Worse    still, when anyone tries to call this out as not being “the Australian way”,    they’re branded “unAustralian”, told they’re racist, intolerant or    worse.*

I    always thought that the great battles in human rights were fought around the    inalienable principle that we’re all equal regardless of race, gender, class    or sexuality.

*Yet    now, in this age of identity politics, your “difference” is    what matters rather than your common humanity*.

  Take    the *case    this week of Moutia Elzahed*,    who is suing police for alleged brutality resulting from    counter-terrorism raids that took place in Sydney in 2014. 

 This    court case alone is a case study in how far we have gone down the path of    junking the very foundations our society was built on.

*In    court this week, Mrs Elzahed (and we’ll get to the “Mrs” in a moment)    refused to take off her full-face veil to give evidence despite the fact she    had initiated the legal action.*

The    judge hearing the case, NSW District Court Justice Audrey Balla, offered other    options for her to give evidence in a more private setting but all    required her face to be shown because, rightly, Balla affirmed the    long-held principle that facial expressions are a key tool used by the court    in assessing the truthfulness of a witness’ testimony.

*Despite    the concessions, Moutia Elzahed still refused to remove her veil and also    refused to stand when the judge entered the room because, as her legal counsel    explained, she stood only for Allah.*

*Yes,    you’ve got it right; Moutia Elzahed was trying to make use of the very    legal system she refused to respect. Justice Balla made it crystal clear she    wouldn’t tolerate disrespect in her court and she was backed up by the NSW    Attorney-General Gabrielle Upton.*


Moutia    Elzahed is not a lone case of courtroom disrespect.  

Things    have got so bad in NSW that they passed a special law a year or so ago to deal    with the growing numbers of Muslim men (and now women) refusing to    acknowledge the jurisdiction of the court and show necessary respect to    the bench.

*Frankly,    it’s ridiculous that these extremists have been allowed to get away with this    nonsense until now.  *

*Sadly,    unlike Justice Balla, most of the judges have let it go which is why a special    law was passed.*

*Despite    this repeated bad behaviour, most of the media — like the judges — turned a    blind eye to the issue.*


You’ve    got to wonder whether this leniency and lack of reporting would have extended    to others treating the court with contempt or whether it was a special    concession because they were Muslim, lest anyone brand them    “Islamophobic”?

*But    it gets worse. Go and look for it yourself, but buried in articles reporting    Moutia Elzahed’s case is a reference to the    fact that she is “one of the two wives” of convicted Islamic State terrorism    recruiter, Hamdi Alqudsi.*

 Convicted    IS recruiter Hamdi Alqudsi has two wives.

*Yes,    you’ve got it right again; not ex-wife, not former wife but “one of two    wives”.*

*How    is it that a line like that passes by most in our media class without    comment? *

 This    is hardly how we expect women in this country to be treated — where’s the    women’s outrage lobby now?

Many    Islamic marriages are, for legal purposes, de facto relationships because they    are religious ceremonies rather than official marriages. 

*But    Australian law clearly says marriage can only be a union between one man and    one woman.*

Sadly,    this is not the first time I have seen reference to “wives”    plural.  

 A    few years ago I was in a meeting in Canberra discussing budget reform when our    conversation moved to the area of rorts within the welfare sector and family    payments specifically; after all, we spend billions every year supporting    people with children.
*
Slipped    into this briefing was acknowledgment by the public service of cases where it    was likely that payments were being provided to families living under one roof    with multiple wives.*

*I    thought I must have heard it wrong. So I followed up again.*

 Hamdi    Alqudsi’s two wives leave Parramatta District Court.

*No,    I got it right the first time. *

*I    was informed that it was probably better for the taxpayer anyway because    if one wife had to be paid separately she would receive additional support as    a single parent.*

  I    couldn’t believe what I was told.   If    it was true, I said, *we    were accepting as a principle in welfare policy something that was    fundamentally wrong — both at law and in our culture — pure and    simple.*

 No    one really disagreed but as is so often the case in Canberra, it was someone    else’s problem and they took a few notes.

 Straight    after the meeting, I raised it with the then prime minister, who found it just    as difficult to believe as I did.

He    said regardless of the budget argument put forward by the public servants, the    principle was paramount.   He    demanded more details and action but the leadership change came … and the    rest is history.

The    reporting of the Moutia Elzahed case reminded me of this    debate. 

Worse,    it reminded me that *there    are just too many places where we are turning a blind eye to changes in our    Australian culture that go against the grain of who we are, and what it is    that makes this country one of the best on earth.*

Despite    the concerted efforts of those who want to define us by our differences, who    we are as a people is just as important as who we are as    individuals. 

 And    wanting to protect what we have is something to be proud of, not shut    down.

I    hope Canberra is listening.


----------



## noco (28 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> *Peta Credlin:    Muslim polygamy bedded down by PC bureaucrats*
> 
> I    LIKE to think growing up in a small country town gave me a good grounding in    the fundamentals because *Middle    Australia is a place where common sense is still (thankfully) common, people    work hard, right is right and wrong is wrong.*
> 
> ...




How very straight forward is this woman......But no doubt she will be called a racist and a bigot by a small few......What have our politicians let this great country of ours in for?...And yet several polls suggest some 98% of Australians say no more Muslim immigration.


----------



## McLovin (28 May 2017)

noco said:


> How very straight forward is this woman......But no doubt she will be called a racist and a bigot by a small few......What have our politicians let this great country of ours in for?...And yet several polls suggest some 98% of Australians say no more Muslim immigration.




I know I'll regret asking but what polls are these?


----------



## noco (28 May 2017)

McLovin said:


> I know I'll regret asking but what polls are these?




I will let you know when the next one comes out.....But what has that got to do with Peta Credlin?


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2017)

Excuse me if I've posted this previously, it's from another forum but sums it all up very well.

"""""I would put it to you that immigration has been fabulous for this country right up until the 1980's. The Italians, Greeks and the Asian immigrants worked hard and did much to enrich the countries culture and economy. They also integrated with our way of life by and large.
The immigration post 1980 has been poorly managed and we imported large numbers of culturally dissimilar races with value systems that are in complete conflict with our way of life. As a generalisation they brought little of value to Australia with them, they don't integrate and they seek to enforce their value systems on US. The crime rate has soared, the welfare drain has skyrocketed and social cohesion is crumbling. Australia is NOT a better place as a result of immigration policies post 1980."""""


----------



## McLovin (28 May 2017)

noco said:


> I will let you know when the next one comes out.....But what has that got to do with Peta Credlin?




Nothing. Neither does this thread.


----------



## luutzu (28 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Excuse me if I've posted this previously, it's from another forum but sums it all up very well.
> 
> """""I would put it to you that immigration has been fabulous for this country right up until the 1980's. The Italians, Greeks and the Asian immigrants worked hard and did much to enrich the countries culture and economy. They also integrated with our way of life by and large.
> The immigration post 1980 has been poorly managed and we imported large numbers of culturally dissimilar races with value systems that are in complete conflict with our way of life. As a generalisation they brought little of value to Australia with them, they don't integrate and they seek to enforce their value systems on US. The crime rate has soared, the welfare drain has skyrocketed and social cohesion is crumbling. Australia is NOT a better place as a result of immigration policies post 1980."""""




Is that the 1980s or the year 1980?  Important 'cause I might not make the cut.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2017)

McLovin said:


> Nothing. Neither does this thread.




Asylum seekers, immigration policy.....much the same .....


----------



## McLovin (28 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Asylum seekers, immigration policy.....much the same .....




I know what the topic is, what does it have to do with Peta Credlin? Which is apparently now where the bar is set for relevance.


----------



## MrBurns (28 May 2017)

McLovin said:


> I know what the topic is, what does it have to do with Peta Credlin? Which is apparently now where the bar is set for relevance.




Apparently that was a speech given by her to do with Muslim immigration.


----------



## McLovin (28 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Apparently that was a speech given by her to do with Muslim immigration.




Again, I understand. I asked noco about his surveys that show 98% of Australians object to Muslim immigration – they are really just novelty "surveys" he finds on the internet – and he asked me what that had to do with Peta Credlin. Answer: Nothing, but it would seem more relevant to the thread than Peta Credlin.


----------



## noco (28 May 2017)

McLovin said:


> Again, I understand. I asked noco about his surveys that show 98% of Australians object to Muslim immigration – they are really just novelty "surveys" he finds on the internet – and he asked me what that had to do with Peta Credlin. Answer: Nothing, but it would seem more relevant to the thread than Peta Credlin.




https://www.votocrat.com/natalie.ma...tralia-have-your-say-yes-or-no?source=sharing


----------



## McLovin (28 May 2017)

noco said:


> https://www.votocrat.com/natalie.ma...tralia-have-your-say-yes-or-no?source=sharing




Surely you understand these aren't real? They're just someone posting a question on the internet (and probably linking it to their circle jerk on Facebook). Just look at the how the question is phrased. It's like it was written by a first grader. If you ban Islam, the first part of the question is totally redundant. And, conversely, what if a respondent wants to close mosques (note: no capitalisation unless it's a proper noun) but not ban Islam, how would they answer the question? Double barrelled questions are a no-no.


----------



## noco (28 May 2017)

McLovin said:


> Surely you understand these aren't real? They're just someone posting a question on the internet (and probably linking it to their circle jerk on Facebook). Just look at the how the question is phrased. It's like it was written by a first grader. If you ban Islam, the first part of the question is totally redundant. And, conversely, what if a respondent wants to close mosques (note: no capitalisation unless it's a proper noun) but not ban Islam, how would they answer the question? Double barrelled questions are a no-no.




 Believe what ever you like.....But I guess being a from the left you would have to post farcical rhetoric in keeping with your beliefs......Can you prove it is not original?


----------



## McLovin (28 May 2017)

noco said:


> Can you prove it is not original?




I'm not saying it's not original, I'm saying it's not scientific. Do you understand?



noco said:


> But I guess being a from the left you would have to post farcical rhetoric in keeping with your beliefs




It wasn't my best work, I apologise, but I had to tailor it to the intended audience or it would have sailed right over their head.

And LOL you and "the left". Is that just anyone who questions your stupidity?


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2017)

Will there ever be a Royal Commission into why Howard opened the gates to boat people that resulted in babies being thrown overboard? He closed the gate after the horse had bolted yes?


----------



## SirRumpole (14 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Will there ever be a Royal Commission into why Howard opened the gates to boat people that resulted in babies being thrown overboard? He closed the gate after the horse had bolted yes?




We should be having RC's into lots of things including how Andrew Robb got his new job.


----------



## drsmith (14 June 2017)

May was another month with no boats.

In relation to ongoing legacy costs from Labor's failed border protection policies when in government, the current government has come to a $70m settlement with Slater and Gordon over the detention of asylum seekers on Manus Island. Kevin Rudd in the lead up to the 2013 election boasted Manus could hold 10,000.


----------



## orr (14 June 2017)

drsmith said:


> May was another month with no boats.
> 
> In relation to ongoing legacy costs from Labor's failed border protection policies when in government, the current government has come to a $70m settlement with Slater and Gordon over the detention of asylum seekers on Manus Island. Kevin Rudd in the lead up to the 2013 election boasted Manus could hold 10,000.




What? Indefinitely? With all the abuses? Orchestrated designed by Abbott Morrison & Dutton (Oafs all)to placate the ignorant, black hearted and white supremacist that supplement 'The Base' that they so desperately need to attract.
The elasticity on your normally demonic bean counting ethos to accomodate the maintenance of these offshore  abominations reminds me of a contortionist who I once watched, in _orr, _as she was able to sit on top of her own head. Your capacities though, are able to push it that one step further to insertion.


----------



## Bobby (14 June 2017)

When I started this thread almost 11 years ago I used these words in my post :
'' The cost will be immense both monetary & socially. ''

Wish I could have picked the markets with that Accuracy !  

Bobby .


----------



## sptrawler (14 June 2017)

orr said:


> What? Indefinitely? With all the abuses? Orchestrated designed by Abbott Morrison & Dutton (Oafs all)to placate the ignorant, black hearted and white supremacist that supplement 'The Base' that they so desperately need to attract.
> The elasticity on your normally demonic bean counting ethos to accomodate the maintenance of these offshore  abominations reminds me of a contortionist who I once watched, in _orr, _as she was able to sit on top of her own head. Your capacities though, are able to push it that one step further to insertion.




As has been stated on numerous media outlets, when Labor came in to office there was 4 people in detention, when they left office 30,000 or so had arrived, the outcome isn't rocket science.
If you are going to promote an open borders ideology, you have to expect what happens in Europe and the U.K, Labor tried to straddle the fence and it ended up a disaster. 
As for the resulting disaster, it doesn't matter what it costs as long as it is brought to closure, hopefully lessons are learnt and correct protocols are adopted in future.
However I doubt it, when a politician stands on a soap box and profess to be doing the right thing, I'm always dubious. lol
As for the asylum seekers, they have obviously done o.k, I wonder if the pay out will encourage another wave.


----------



## Tisme (14 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> As has been stated on numerous media outlets, when Labor came in to office there was 4 people in detention, when they left office 30,000 or so had arrived, the outcome isn't rocket science.
> If you are going to promote an open borders ideology, you have to expect what happens in Europe and the U.K, Labor tried to straddle the fence and it ended up a disaster.
> As for the resulting disaster, it doesn't matter what it costs as long as it is brought to closure, hopefully lessons are learnt and correct protocols are adopted in future.
> However I doubt it, when a politician stands on a soap box and profess to be doing the right thing, I'm always dubious. lol
> As for the asylum seekers, they have obviously done o.k, I wonder if the pay out will encourage another wave.





Which beggars the question, why the payout when parliament is supposed to make laws. Something is wrong when party politics rewards the undeserving.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> As for the asylum seekers, they have obviously done o.k, I wonder if the pay out will encourage another wave.




The payouts were for 'abuse' not the fact that they were asylum seekers.

If they have to be held in detention they at least should be treated humanely.


----------



## sptrawler (14 June 2017)

Well there has been a lot more abuse of migrant children, in the 50's and 60's also indigenous people, who didn't chose to get into the situation of their own volition.
So I hope we are as accepting of their plight, and treat them in the same manner.
WOW that will hurt, but be much more deserving.IMO


----------



## sptrawler (14 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Which beggars the question, why the payout when parliament is supposed to make laws. Something is wrong when party politics rewards the undeserving.



That's true, rewarding those who queue jump, while many who may be more deserving wait in hope is very wrong.
Just shows money talks, the illegals paid to get here now walk away with money, those who follow protocol sit in camps.


----------



## luutzu (14 June 2017)

drsmith said:


> May was another month with no boats.
> 
> In relation to ongoing legacy costs from Labor's failed border protection policies when in government, the current government has come to a $70m settlement with Slater and Gordon over the detention of asylum seekers on Manus Island. Kevin Rudd in the lead up to the 2013 election boasted Manus could hold 10,000.




How much of that $70M do you reckon will reach the queue jumpers?

Here's an interesting question... if a boatful of people was forced around and no news was released about it, did that boat exist?


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> How much of that $70M do you reckon will reach the queue jumpers?
> 
> Here's an interesting question... if a boatful of people was forced around and no news was released about it, did that boat exist?




Just because someone can afford a boat, does it give them preference or priority, over someone waiting patiently in a camp?
If someone has the money to put themselves in an advantageous, yet perilous  position, it somehow gives them priority over those more disadvantaged?
I don't see how that is fair, it is just supporting the well off to jump over the less fortunate.IMO


----------



## luutzu (15 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Just because someone can afford a boat, does it give them preference or priority, over someone waiting patiently in a camp?
> If someone has the money to put themselves in an advantageous, yet perilous  position, it somehow gives them priority over those more disadvantaged?
> I don't see how that is fair, it is just supporting the well off to jump over the less fortunate.IMO





First, they do not own the boat. They paid people smugglers to be on that boat. They know they could die on it but decided, for some reason, that it's worth the risk. Maybe it's their only way out.

Second, they're not asking to be ahead of anyone's queue. Just asking to be on that queue. Any gov't can interview, review, check, do that extreme vetting... and if it's decided that they're just economic migrants, they get sent back. 

Problem is, the majority of those boat people were found to be genuine refugees. Just we don't give a crap. So we make deal with the US, do an exchange for those we've [ok, Labor] have let in.

But fear not, our border force has been ordered to not ask questions about safety, seeking asylum, claims blah blah. Just point the guns to their heads and point them where they better head back to. 

And all us Aussies get to feel good and secure because we're a bit richer by not having to pay billions to private prison contractors to have to lock them up offshore. Oh wait...


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> First, they do not own the boat. They paid people smugglers to be on that boat. They know they could die on it but decided, for some reason, that it's worth the risk. Maybe it's their only way out.
> 
> Second, they're not asking to be ahead of anyone's queue. Just asking to be on that queue. Any gov't can interview, review, check, do that extreme vetting... and if it's decided that they're just economic migrants, they get sent back.
> 
> ...




Like I said, there obviously is a protocol, why should you be able to circumvent that protocol because you have the money to pay a people smuggler.
I'll put it another way, you throw away all your identification and tell me which first World Countries will accept you?
Secondly If Australia takes your stance and says, just take anyone who arrives here, I would bet within two years you would be screaming to shut the border.
How the hell can we support a welfare state, when all and sundry can just arrive and take residence.
When do you stop it? and when you do have to stop it, because it is collapsing your economy. How do you tell the others that want to come in, that they aren't allowed, we can't cope?
It is much more sensible to regulate the intake to start with, the World is overpopulated, it is a global problem.


----------



## luutzu (15 June 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said, there obviously is a protocol, why should you be able to circumvent that protocol because you have the money to pay a people smuggler.
> I'll put it another way, you throw away all your identification and tell me which first World Countries will accept you?
> Secondly If Australia takes your stance and says, just take anyone who arrives here, I would bet within two years you would be screaming to shut the border.
> How the hell can we support a welfare state, when all and sundry can just arrive and take residence.
> ...




It does not break or circumvent any International protocol to seek refuge, by whatever mean. There is no such agreement about having to go to a recognised refugee camp, even if there's one.

And genuine refugees cannot just turn up to a UN office or an OZ embassy to file a claim. It just doesn't work that way. I mean, it's like telling a person who needs help to wait at some non-existence camp X, not knocking at your door for help because that would jump some queue. 

As said before... no one is saying Australia should take all who turns up; nor should we be the only country to pay for the offshore gulag either. Make it a regional or an international issue... get others to chip in. Doing what we're doing doesn't help anyone, most important of us, not helping ourselves.

It's a myth that refugees flee, get settled and just stay on welfare. 

They might claim welfare, work in some sweat shop or odd jobs for cash... So that's cheating... but they will soon learn the language, get a proper job [if anything it's how they can buy a house].

The world is not over populated. It's just that wealth are not spread more equitably. And we're all poorer for it.

Headline today showed that the top 5 richest men in the world own half of it.

How many can of Coke or house do you reckon Buffett would buy? How much intellectual vigour and hard labour do you think he could produce? Not half the world's combined.


----------



## drsmith (15 July 2017)

June was another month with no boats. There was one known attempt with the 6 Sri-Lankans on board returned to country of origin.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ation-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-june-2


----------



## drsmith (10 August 2017)

July was another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ation-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-july-3

It's now been 3 years since a successful people smuggling operation by boat.


----------



## sptrawler (10 August 2017)

drsmith said:


> July was another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ation-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-july-3
> 
> It's now been 3 years since a successful people smuggling operation by boat.




I think the demand for Australia, as a destination, will be diminishing rapidly and not because of the border protection.
The land of milk and honey, is rapidly becoming the great south whirlpool, there won't be backlogs in Indonesia soon.
Other destinations will be far more enticing.IMO


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

drsmith said:


> July was another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ation-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-july-3
> 
> It's now been 3 years since a successful people smuggling operation by boat.




Eternal vigilance my friend.

We can never be certain what bs "war" or "famine" or "genocide" asails the parasites to get on a leaky boat and pray that they don't die of thirst, hunger or just a freak wave, or pirate attacks, or suffocate... to get a fresh start in a free country.

If conditions are really bad, there's always a line (somewhere), always easy access to a refugee camp (somewhere), or just a passport and enough money to hire translators to call up the embassy. 

This is Australia, dam it! We want our refugees to come here on a jet.


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I think the demand for Australia, as a destination, will be diminishing rapidly and not because of the border protection.
> The land of milk and honey, is rapidly becoming the great south whirlpool, there won't be backlogs in Indonesia soon.
> Other destinations will be far more enticing.IMO




You're not talking refugees there Homer. Those would be economic migrants... the clean cut, English-speaking, highly qualified with proper visa and sponsorship. They might not see Australia as that land of milk and honey.

For refugees...


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> You're not talking refugees there Homer. Those would be economic migrants... the clean cut, English-speaking, highly qualified with proper visa and sponsorship. They might not see Australia as that land of milk and honey.
> 
> For refugees...




Yes Iuutzu, I was meaning those that chose the shortcut, by greasing palms with gold, not those who are genuine.
I came here as a migrant at 8 years old, I have embraced the Aussie culture of giving it your best shot, and have been successful to a small degree.
What I hate, is those who want to bring their baggage with them and those who want to circumvent because they can.


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> Eternal vigilance my friend.
> 
> We can never be certain what bs "war" or "famine" or "genocide" asails the parasites to get on a leaky boat and pray that they don't die of thirst, hunger or just a freak wave, or pirate attacks, or suffocate... to get a fresh start in a free country.
> 
> ...




The problem with that analogy is, they travel through many safe Countries, before they get here.


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with that analogy is, they travel through many safe Countries, before they get here.




Maybe those safe countries are not welcoming, not signatories to the UNHCR refugee convention - i.e. temporarily shelter and assess anyone who seeks/request asylum. 

That and if your home is so screwed that you're forced to leave it, chances are you'd want to settle where there's little to no chance of more wars or famine, where your children won't have to one day be forced to run or die again.

It's only human to do that isn't it?


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Yes Iuutzu, I was meaning those that chose the shortcut, by greasing palms with gold, not those who are genuine.
> I came here as a migrant at 8 years old, I have embraced the Aussie culture of giving it your best shot, and have been successful to a small degree.
> What I hate, is those who want to bring their baggage with them and those who want to circumvent because they can.




All refugees I know embrace the new culture in Australia. As long as that culture is one that demand loyalty to the country, obey its laws, don't hurt or harm anyone... then do whatever else you want to.

Open restaurants, eat Halal, worship and pray to whatever diety/ies you like. 

To ask them to become White and American... that you'll need to wait a couple of generations.


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> Maybe those safe countries are not welcoming, not signatories to the UNHCR refugee convention - i.e. temporarily shelter and assess anyone who seeks/request asylum.
> 
> That and if your home is so screwed that you're forced to leave it, chances are you'd want to settle where there's little to no chance of more wars or famine, where your children won't have to one day be forced to run or die again.
> 
> It's only human to do that isn't it?




Those safe Countries are not welcoming, generally due to the conflict they have had with refugees in the past, we haven't had the same issues.
That doesn't mean we won't end up with the same issues, most Countries do, as France and Thailand are experiencing.
To use the the poor me card, to endear oneself then bite the hand that feeds you, isn't human either.


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> All refugees I know embrace the new culture in Australia. As long as that culture is one that demand loyalty to the country, obey its laws, don't hurt or harm anyone... then do whatever else you want to.
> 
> Open restaurants, eat Halal, worship and pray to whatever diety/ies you like.
> 
> To ask them to become White and American... that you'll need to wait a couple of generations.




There is nothing wrong with that, to hold on to past that you are trying to escape, is unforgivable.
Also to assimilate, then abuse the Country where you took refuge, is a disgrace.
We see it with the drug cartels from refugee backgrounds.
Yet you say turn a blind eye to illegal entry, it is a weird stance from my perspective.
If someone has money, there are ways of legal entry, why take illegal options.

With regard the 'white and American' crap.
No one wants anyone to become white, most Aussies get cancer, from trying to turn brown.
I'm getting a bit fed up with people playing the colour, sex discrimination card, why can't people just be the best they can, in Australia that usually gets you there.
There are too many people, wanting someone else to push their cart, at the moment.


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I think the demand for Australia, as a destination, will be diminishing rapidly and not because of the border protection.
> The land of milk and honey, is rapidly becoming the great south whirlpool, there won't be backlogs in Indonesia soon.
> Other destinations will be far more enticing.IMO



Absolutely. Cost of living here is way too much. Hey governuts please make more houses and bring more people in to tax and keep the coffers going lol


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> All refugees I know embrace the new culture in Australia. As long as that culture is one that demand loyalty to the country, obey its laws, don't hurt or harm anyone... then do whatever else you want to.
> 
> Open restaurants, eat Halal, worship and pray to whatever diety/ies you like.
> 
> To ask them to become White and American... that you'll need to wait a couple of generations.



Um white american? wtf are you talking about. How about consideration for australians who have been here for a little longer?


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> There is nothing wrong with that, to hold on to past that you are trying to escape, is unforgivable.
> Also to assimilate, then abuse the Country where you took refuge, is a disgrace.
> We see it with the drug cartels from refugee backgrounds.
> Yet you say turn a blind eye to illegal entry, it is a weird stance from my perspective.
> ...



Yes we need more reality tv shows... like i need a hole in the head. welcome to social media crap facef uck and twatter come to mind  lol


----------



## qldfrog (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> There is nothing wrong with that, to hold on to past that you are trying to escape, is unforgivable.
> Also to assimilate, then abuse the Country where you took refuge, is a disgrace.
> We see it with the drug cartels from refugee backgrounds.
> Yet you say turn a blind eye to illegal entry, it is a weird stance from my perspective.
> ...



A migrant myself, I have spent too many minutes of my life trying to have Luutzu see the light or at least have the tools to see it, but he is locked in a mindset where he wants to see his migrant past as similar to the one of the illegal immigrants flooding in the west and has a deep hatred of the American [western world] and associated.
Nothing you can say, no figure you can show will change that, ignore list is the only option I am afraid as there can be no debate


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

crackajack said:


> Um white american? wtf are you talking about. How about consideration for australians who have been here for a little longer?




It's my attempt at humour, mate 

Most of our popular culture are live-stream from the US isn't it? Maybe for those without a good internet connection it's still Britain.


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's my attempt at humour, mate
> 
> Most of our popular culture are live-stream from the US isn't it? Maybe for those without a good internet connection it's still Britain.



No way I always watch yummy mumies and home and away and all the other really good free to air tv programs Fantastic stuff. and when I get bored I hop on facef cuk and the other vast plethra of social media. But watch out you don't get bullied because OMG this is the real deal. Whatever social media says is 100% true lol


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Those safe Countries are not welcoming, generally due to the conflict they have had with refugees in the past, we haven't had the same issues.
> That doesn't mean we won't end up with the same issues, most Countries do, as France and Thailand are experiencing.
> To use the the poor me card, to endear oneself then bite the hand that feeds you, isn't human either.




How many refugees "bite the hands that feed them"? 

That's not to say there's no criminal activity and such among the refugees, just that's what you'll find in any population, anywhere. 

Until we walk in other people's shoes, maybe shouldn't listen to media reports and commentators blabbering about why people are so and so and deserve to die.

Just use images.google.com     search for Syria or Mosul or anywhere in the ME. What would you do, stay there and die? Stay indoor as told and die? 

The vast majority of refugees in the M.E. run to their nearest refugee camps in neighbouring deserts. It's when those are full that they have to get on a floaty and decided to invade Europe.


----------



## dutchie (11 August 2017)

drsmith said:


> July was another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...ation-sovereign-borders-monthly-update-july-3
> 
> It's now been 3 years since a successful people smuggling operation by boat.




Thanks for your updates , smithy


----------



## dutchie (11 August 2017)

crackajack said:


> Cost of living here is way too much




But you can get $400/wk for nothing and sit around drinking coffee all day.


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> How many refugees "bite the hands that feed them"?
> 
> That's not to say there's no criminal activity and such among the refugees, just that's what you'll find in any population, anywhere.
> 
> ...



Well here is a true story. Some refugees from those parts were offered accommodation in a Portuguese town. One month later they left and went to germany and norway etc, because Portugal is poor and Germany is rich. Refugees? I doubt it.


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

crackajack said:


> Well here is a true story. Some refugees from those parts were offered accommodation in a Portuguese town. One month later they left and went to germany and norway etc, because Portugal is poor and Germany is rich. Refugees? I doubt it.




If you doubt it, so will the Immigration officer who's going to interview those people. They then get rejected and go home.


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> If you doubt it, so will the Immigration officer who's going to interview those people. They then get rejected and go home.



You miss my point, they were admitted into the EU and resettled to Portugal but oh little money so they decided to go to Germany. If they were true refugees they would be grateful, however they were not. Probably just another butch of ungrateful spongers.


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2017)

dutchie said:


> But you can get $400/wk for nothing and sit around drinking coffee all day.




with a couple of wives thrown in


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

crackajack said:


> You miss my point, they were admitted into the EU and resettled to Portugal but oh little money so they decided to go to Germany. If they were true refugees they would be grateful, however they were not. Probably just another butch of ungrateful spongers.



bunch sorry typo


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

dutchie said:


> But you can get $400/wk for nothing and sit around drinking coffee all day.




No they don't sit around drinking coffee all day.

They get that free cash, pretend to study English but would actually be working in some sweat shop or as a tradies help for cash. 

That's the life of most refugees. Getting all the help they can, working for low wages with no safety or insurance or rights... feed their kids, send cash home to help relatives and grandma who's stuck behind. 

Sure, there are some that'll just sell drugs, live off of welfare and help no one. But to say that they're all like that, you really have no idea.


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> with a couple of wives thrown in



Always look on the bright side of life


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> No they don't sit around drinking coffee all day.
> 
> They get that free cash, pretend to study English but would actually be working in some sweat shop or as a tradies help for cash.
> 
> ...



I am not saying all I am saying majority


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> No they don't sit around drinking coffee all day.
> 
> They get that free cash, pretend to study English but would actually be working in some sweat shop or as a tradies help for cash.
> 
> ...




He didn't say "all", he said "can"


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

at the end of the day if you can not have the means to look after a child, wht the f uck would you have one?


----------



## crackajack (11 August 2017)

at least with rabbits you can eat them lol


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

crackajack said:


> I am not saying all I am saying majority




You're assuming. I know from experience. 

So unless Muslim or other ethnic refguees aren't human, then my experience and observation shows that it's the very very few refugees who turn against their adopted country, or would sit around sipping coffee with their four wives giving them a back rub.

Anyway.


----------



## luutzu (11 August 2017)

crackajack said:


> at the end of the day if you can not have the means to look after a child, wht the f uck would you have one?




Accidents?

Or when they had the kid, "Mission Accomplish" was branded across an aircraft carrier... giving hints that peace is at hand.


----------



## Tisme (11 August 2017)

luutzu said:


> then my experience and observation shows that it's the very very few refugees who turn against their adopted country,




have you reported them and Jessica-6 to the Sandman?


----------



## drsmith (11 August 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I think the demand for Australia, as a destination, will be diminishing rapidly and not because of the border protection.
> The land of milk and honey, is rapidly becoming the great south whirlpool, there won't be backlogs in Indonesia soon.
> Other destinations will be far more enticing.IMO



While the view politically looks grim from within, we are still a very attractive destination for asylum seekers seeking an economic leg up (and immigrants more broadly) and for those who provide illegal people smuggling services.


----------



## luutzu (12 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> have you reported them and Jessica-6 to the Sandman?




Alright, bad wording. 

"Turn against" not in a terrorist or espionage nature; against as in committing direct crimes against fellow citizens and things of that nature.

Remember that Phuong Ngo fella? Ordering a hit on a councillor or state MP? I went to those FREE Saturdays maths tuition classes he sponsored. Got a shock of my life once when I look out the hallway and saw him looking in. 

When he was later caught and found guilty, all VNese media and call-ins were against him... and rightly so. They disown him, saying he doesn't represent the community or the people... no kidding. Successful Vnese don't represent your community either.


----------



## orr (4 November 2017)

drsmith said:


> While the view politically looks grim




Certianly does .... For the LNP.

Getting what you want Smith? Asylum Seekers 'Green Needle'


----------



## drsmith (4 November 2017)

orr said:


> Certianly does .... For the LNP.
> 
> Getting what you want Smith? Asylum Seekers 'Green Needle'



Sun's shining here.

Still happy no boats when I last checked.


----------



## dutchie (4 November 2017)

drsmith said:


> Sun's shining here.
> 
> Still happy no boats when I last checked.



But Labor and the (fascists) Greens may change that soon.


----------



## orr (4 November 2017)

dutchie said:


> the (fascists)  may change that soon.



\

You should check who's feet the jack boots are 'el duce' sorry "el dutchie"

Jane Elliot has long known the effects of bigotry on interlect('debtrimetal')... Alas poor Smith, nincompoopism...synonymous ... 
What is it $8- $10 billion and counting? go on give it your best estimate?

Australia... Stop the dolts.


----------



## drsmith (6 November 2017)

Someone's been to Adam Bandt's name calling class.


----------



## drsmith (14 November 2017)

October has been another month with no boats.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/45c49e50-9be6-45b5-a569-f0e693dea3af

Voluntary returns to country of origin from Regional Processing Centres since OSB commenced is 634, up 10 from September.

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/a4e1949e-3a4b-4750-bc65-cda9b3a668d1


----------



## explod (14 November 2017)

The whole business is a joke.   No one asked to be born but once through the cathedral door to the outside world we are all equal and should be able to share it equally. 

The people on the boats are mostly trying to find a better life.  Like most of our forebears who were not only boat people but poisoned and shot those whose land it was.  And as the situation around the planet grows,  the pressures on fairly empty countries is going to be such that we will not be able to stop the influx. 

However we have a lot of empty clear desert land to our northern boarders.  Soooo with perhaps some supervision in the beginning these Hethens on Manus I'm sure could become a productive comunity which eventually would become a protective population that would directly control and supervise the continuing problem.   

Now if I can contemplate something that may work (maybe not but lets try)  why can't the useless pollies do it.   Of course big pride in not backing down comes into it if you have the look of Hitler on your dial. 

 But we can't consider the common sense of a left wing commo Green,  now could we.  Well because we are overturning and researching good alternatives against the negative crap of the current major parties the Greens will continue to rise to surface.  Oh,,,  and we cant tree hug much anymore either because the libs and labour have cut most of them down. 

Gees the millions wasted on the topic of this thread would just about put a home around all our homeless too.


----------



## luutzu (14 November 2017)

explod said:


> The whole business is a joke.   No one asked to be born but once through the cathedral door to the outside world we are all equal and should be able to share it equally.
> 
> The people on the boats are mostly trying to find a better life.  Like most of our forebears who were not only boat people but poisoned and shot those whose land it was.  And as the situation around the planet grows,  the pressures on fairly empty countries is going to be such that we will not be able to stop the influx.
> 
> ...




Read that our pollies turned down NZ's offer to accept the refugees on Manus? 

If true, wtf?


----------



## luutzu (14 November 2017)

drsmith said:


> October has been another month with no boats.
> 
> http://newsroom.border.gov.au/chann...releases/45c49e50-9be6-45b5-a569-f0e693dea3af
> 
> ...




You don't have other injustices against Australians to fight about? If fighting one battle at a time is your grand strategy, start at the top man.

The recently leaked documents - Paradise Papers - showed multinationals and the uber rich not paying their taxes to Australia.

Nike made sales of some $500m a year in Australia yet somehow paid only $4m in taxes. Now... a pair of Nike goes for at least $120... the costs for them to produce is about $2. 

Misplaced priorities, maybe?


----------



## drsmith (15 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Misplaced priorities, maybe?



Off topic, absolutely.

NZ can afford to be all care and no responsibility by virtue of its location. It's not their shores people smugglers would target as a result.


----------



## luutzu (15 November 2017)

drsmith said:


> Off topic, absolutely.
> 
> NZ can afford to be all care and no responsibility by virtue of its location. It's not their shores people smugglers would target as a result.




Responsibility to whom? The Australian people? 

When's the last time you, me and most Australian battlers pay 1% or less on our revenue (income)?

Nike, Apple, Google etc. etc. pay diddly on their hundreds of millions in (non)profit they do (not) earned in Australia... yet somehow a bunch of desperate people on leaky boats seeking a better life, maybe an escape from the non-ethnic cleansing... yea, they're the ones who break the rules and steal our stuff.


And if NZ can afford to take in the illegals and future-terrorists on Manus, who the heck are we to deny those people the opportunities? 

We need to lock up desperate people to make an example out of? Or our struggling Aussie contractors need those billions a year?


----------



## basilio (24 November 2017)

What the Government is doing to asylum seekers in the name of Australia. 

* Behrouz Boochani exposed Australia's evil on Manus. The shame will outlive us all *
Richard Flanagan
We are now known as the inventors of a vile form of repression. Instead of thanking the refugee reporter for alerting us to what was happening to our country, we enabled his imprisonment

• Manus Island police use long metal poles to beat refugees 

*Shares*
1710

Friday 24 November 2017 02.03 GMT   Last modified on Friday 24 November 2017 04.02 GMT

So this is what we have come to as a nation.

The wretched of the earth, because they were no longer safe where they lived, sought to come here. With a determined cruelty, we kidnapped and imprisoned them in Pacific lagers. These lagers became synonymous with the idea of hellholes because it was important to our government that they be – and be known as – hellholes.

On this policy of deterrence, as it was called, which had as its declared purpose to make innocent human beings suffer indefinitely, we spent billions of dollars. To this end we had truck with vile regimes such as Sri Lanka’s. And to this end we began forsaking our democratic rights.

In the camps the refugees were made to answer to numbers given to them as their new identity. Denied their names they were not even allowed their stories. Every attempt that could be made was made by the Australian government, from the petty to the disturbing, to deny journalists access to the Pacific lager. When it came to imprisoned refugees free speech became a crime: for some years any doctor, nurse or social worker in the camps who publicly reported on the many instances, now well-documented, of rape, murder, suicide and sexual abuse of refugees was liable to two years’ imprisonment.

Because evil was being done to the innocent, and to that truth there is finally no justification that even the most powerful could make. And so it mattered that Australians not know of the mounting crimes for which all Australians will be finally accountable.

*All this too was done in our name by our governments, of both left and right. And, more or less, if we didn’t tacitly agree, few of us disagreed enough. And perhaps we didn’t really want to know.*

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-evil-being-done-on-manus-will-outlive-us-all


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## basilio (24 November 2017)

What is the issue at Manus prison ?*  FREEDOM, 
*
Put yourself in their shoes.

* All we want is freedom – not another prison camp *
Behrouz Boochani
Over the past four years we have become a mere subject for politicians and the media. Our human dignity has been debased and all our dreams shattered

 
*Shares*
2975
 
* Comments*
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Contact author

 
@BehrouzBoochani

Monday 13 November 2017 01.14 GMT   Last modified on Monday 13 November 2017 06.57 GMT

Manus prison has reached a historic landmark. It’s a culmination of years of premeditated violence and affliction. For more than 10 days hundreds of refugees have been refusing to leave the prison camp and, as a result, the situation has morphed into a large-scale humanitarian crisis. If things deteriorate further, we will witness a disaster beyond imagination.







For many who are watching from Australia or other parts of the world, particular questions have arisen, including: why are the refugees refusing to leave the camp? From the perspective of someone who has lived in this prison for more than four years and who has been critically analysing the politics of offshore processing throughout this time, I am certain that there is a misconception of the main reason behind our resistance – a misinterpretation of the principle driving the stand taken by the refugees. This mistake has both been made by people who are actively supporting the refugees and by individuals who have been indifferent toward the events in Manus and Nauru prisons all these years. And it also pertains to those who have supported the government’s political strategy. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/13/all-we-want-is-freedom-not-another-prison-camp


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## SirRumpole (24 November 2017)

> The issue is plain and simple. We did not come to Australia to live in a prison. The peaceful protest by refugees is not because we want to remain in this prison. We are resisting because we want freedom in a safe environment. The core concern is freedom … only freedom. The rest of what you hear are just peripheral issues.




Understandable of course. But one may say "him and untold thousands of others in the same position".

1.We have no capacity to take indefinite numbers of arrivals.

2. He comes from Iran. How many other countries that signed the Refugee Convention did he come through or past to get to Australia ? Why did he not settle in the closest available country ?


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## luutzu (24 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Understandable of course. But one may say "him and untold thousands of others in the same position".
> 
> 1.We have no capacity to take indefinite numbers of arrivals.
> 
> 2. He comes from Iran. How many other countries that signed the Refugee Convention did he come through or past to get to Australia ? Why did he not settle in the closest available country ?




No capacity?

Australia is a very big place. 

No money? We spent how many billions on those camps? They don't go to the refugees. A few pack of noodles a day, a tent... those don't cost billions.  That and oh... stop spending hundreds of millions on foreign wars might save a few bucks.


Take a look at Iran. It's between Iraq and Afghanistan. Those aren't exactly peaceful places since 2001. That and there are actually refugees in Iraq and Afghanistan. They actually flee to the nearest place seeking refuge. 


We are being conditioned to fear and hate fellow human beings. It's social engineering at its most farked. If we just let it happen, it will not stop at refugees and foreigners. It'll make its way to us hating our neighbours, our widows and orphans. Then maybe ourselves one day.


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## SirRumpole (24 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Take a look at Iran. It's between Iraq and Afghanistan. Those aren't exactly peaceful places since 2001. That and there are actually refugees in Iraq and Afghanistan. They actually flee to the nearest place seeking refuge.




They could go to Saudi Arabia or Oman, Kuwait or Jordan, just across the Persian Gulf. All Muslim countries who I'm sure would want to look after their buddies.


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## luutzu (24 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> They could go to Saudi Arabia or Oman, Kuwait or Jordan, just across the Persian Gulf. All Muslim countries who I'm sure would want to look after their buddies.




Muslim or any country that would not shoot them on sight they goes to. Look it up.

Syrians flee to Lebanon, Syrians to Iraq, Jordan; Afghanis to Iran, Iraq. Africans to Libya...

They even run to Israel for crying out loud. Muslims going to Israel seeking refuge. But most are Jewish by faith, black by skin tone so they "aren't really Jews" and so are locked up in the desert. 


As to Muslims all being friends and buddies... you haven't read the news about the siege on Yemen by Saudi Arabia, the UAE [?] and supported [permitted] by Uncle Sam and the UK.

Yemen is completely blockaded. Air, Sea, Land... nothing goes in or out without being shot at or shoot down. Kids, elderly, terrorists... all die and starve since 2014. 


The US spent, so far, about $2 Trillion a piece in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we think it's horrific what a few jet liners crashing into buildings... and it is horrific and barbaric... think of what $4 trillion of arms can do. They don't all land on terrorists and tear them to shreds. 


I guess only the Romans graze cities to the ground and call it peace.


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## moXJO (25 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Muslim or any country that would not shoot them on sight they goes to. Look it up.
> 
> Syrians flee to Lebanon, Syrians to Iraq, Jordan; Afghanis to Iran, Iraq. Africans to Libya...
> 
> ...



Makes manus look like a tropical holiday.

They are living in high standards compared to the locals ( a lot of Australians as well) and they have freedom to move around the island.

The pictures we get fed are from activists on a campaign. 

"Stop the boats" worked.
We still take in refugees. 
Its unfortunate these guys got the short end of the stick. But hey they are safe from their home countries.


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## dutchie (25 November 2017)

Why would we want one more muslim to come to this country when their cult endorses this kind of behaviour ..

*Egypt attack: More than 200 dead after militants target North Sinai mosque, state media reports*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-...ypt-mosque-attack-state-media-reports/9192524


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## luutzu (25 November 2017)

moXJO said:


> Makes manus look like a tropical holiday.
> 
> They are living in high standards compared to the locals ( a lot of Australians as well) and they have freedom to move around the island.
> 
> ...




The complaint is indefinite detention, not that the conditions are not luxurious. 

New Zealand offered to take them, our OZ politicians says no. Why? 

1. It set a bad example and entice desperate people to risk their lives on the high seas instead of being civilised, book themselves on a plane and have a few hundred thousands in the bank like normal people.

2. Contracts are important. Corporate welfare also important. How will the suppliers and corporations that manage those camps earn enough to pay dividends to shareholders if there's no refugees to screw and milk? Go to NZ?


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## luutzu (25 November 2017)

dutchie said:


> Why would we want one more muslim to come to this country when their cult endorses this kind of behaviour ..
> 
> *Egypt attack: More than 200 dead after militants target North Sinai mosque, state media reports*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-...ypt-mosque-attack-state-media-reports/9192524




The headline read militants target Sinai mosque. 

To be that racist you got to wait until the terrorists hit Christians and Jews or something. It just doesn't give oompf to the Islam is Evil when "the muslim" kill their "fellow" Muslims.

Ah yes, spending trillions of dollars to flatten cities... I guess that's peace keeping and anti-terrorism good work. 

Try to see it from the other perspective. Shoe on the other foot kind of thing that Jesus probably taught.


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## drsmith (26 November 2017)

basilio said:


> What is the issue at Manus prison ?*  FREEDOM,
> *
> Put yourself in their shoes.



The worst shoes to be in are those on the floor of the Indian Ocean.

I hope I'm wrong but I'm anticipating they'll be more after Labor return to office.


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## Macquack (26 November 2017)

drsmith said:


> The worst shoes to be in are those on the floor of the Indian Ocean.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong but I'm anticipating they'll be more after Labor return to office.



Why is it the same crowd that feign concern for the refugees that perished at sea when they dont give a f*ck anyway and would be the first to volunteer to maintain the borders with guns drawn. Bloody hypocrites.


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## drsmith (26 November 2017)

Macquack said:


> Why is it the same crowd that feign concern for the refugees that perished at sea when they dont give a f*ck anyway and would be the first to volunteer to maintain the borders with guns drawn. Bloody hypocrites.



As we have seen, death at sea is an inevitable consequence of policies that allow people to seek asylum in Australia by boat.

Your name-calling characterisation above isn't going to change that.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

Macquack said:


> Why is it the same crowd that feign concern for the refugees that perished at sea when they dont give a f*ck anyway and would be the first to volunteer to maintain the borders with guns drawn. Bloody hypocrites.




If kids that were kidnapped, tortured and raped by the neighbour managed to escape and ran across the street for help. We all know the thing to do is to ask if the kids got permission from the adults at home to leave the house; then ask why they jaywalk when there's a perfectly good crossing somewhere nearby; then tell them that it's your lawn so get the hell off of it.


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## moXJO (27 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> If kids that were kidnapped, tortured and raped by the neighbour managed to escape and ran across the street for help. We all know the thing to do is to ask if the kids got permission from the adults at home to leave the house; then ask why they jaywalk when there's a perfectly good crossing somewhere nearby; then tell them that it's your lawn so get the hell off of it.



Indonesia wasn't safe huh? 
Or any of the other countries they passed through to get here? 
This was a loophole that was successfully closed.
Sucks to be those guys, but the flood of people that were coming by boat was ridiculous.

 We are still taking refugees that are stuck in camps.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

moXJO said:


> Indonesia wasn't safe huh?
> Or any of the other countries they passed through to get here?
> This was a loophole that was successfully closed.
> Sucks to be those guys, but the flood of people that were coming by boat was ridiculous.
> ...




The thing about refugees and people smugglers is their ability to hire consultants to exploit loopholes.

I bet the Goldman Sachs of the world is diversifying their tax minimisation division into advising "refugees" how to fake war, famine, persecution... act desperate, get on a leaky boat and head south.

But thank goodness the smarter people among us aren't falling for that boohoohoo our countries are being bombed like there's goodness and civilisation is raining upon high; our village being razed to the ground to clear the land by people who look almost like ourselves.


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## Wysiwyg (27 November 2017)

moXJO said:


> Indonesia wasn't safe huh?
> Or any of the other countries they passed through to get here?



A lot of them did their dough and are obviously not happy. Australia isn't the soft touch it used to be.


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## moXJO (27 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> The thing about refugees and people smugglers is their ability to hire consultants to exploit loopholes.
> 
> I bet the Goldman Sachs of the world is diversifying their tax minimisation division into advising "refugees" how to fake war, famine, persecution... act desperate, get on a leaky boat and head south.
> 
> But thank goodness the smarter people among us aren't falling for that boohoohoo our countries are being bombed like there's goodness and civilisation is raining upon high; our village being razed to the ground to clear the land by people who look almost like ourselves.



Head a long way south.... Through numerous other safe countries and into one with welfare.
Majority are from Iran.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

Australia was next door to Ireland during the Potato Famine was it?

Was Australia close to Europe after WWII as well?

There are countries in Asia that are not known for their signature on the UN refugee paper, and they tend not to see themselves as the light of the world either. 

And last I heard, Iran is one of the Axis of Evil. Those who claim to be persecuted or fear for their lives in Iran shouldn't be listened to to get the facts straight?

And no body is saying that all those who claim asylum are genuine refugees. Maybe the thing to do is ask for proof. Or turn on the news and watch current event.


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## drsmith (27 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> There are countries in Asia that are not known for their signature on the UN refugee paper, and they tend not to see themselves as the light of the world either.



If they're OK to transit, they're OK to stay.


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## Boggo (27 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Australia was next door to Ireland during the Potato Famine was it?
> 
> Was Australia close to Europe after WWII as well?
> 
> ...




You seem to be confusing real refugees with economic "refugees" who have the funds, contacts and ability to pick and choose what country they want to leech off.

To reduce your apparent confusion the link below may help as it shows what real refugees look like.
You wont see the ABC cameras there nor will you hear any stupid comments from Sea Patrol Sarah because she wouldn't have a bloody clue where the place is !
https://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/...mber-2017/the-rohingya-crisis-behind-the-lens


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## wayneL (27 November 2017)

It's a shame SJWs never support their own, only all else against their own.

Hence,  you are the enemy of our culture.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

drsmith said:


> If they're OK to transit, they're OK to stay.




So if they say passing near Australia's water is their transit to NZ, they can stay in Australia? We'd welcome them with open arms too?

And those richer migrants who can afford a ticket, afford the connection to get a better job than ones they could back in the UK, US, NZ... those aren't here for economic reason? Are here to help Australia make itself great again, for free?

Where's the outrage when multinationals and the uber rich get our tax dollars but pay diddly back? That's free enterprise I supposed.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

wayneL said:


> It's a shame SJWs never support their own, only all else against their own.
> 
> Hence,  you are the enemy of our culture.




What's SJW? 

What's "our own"?

I'm not that young so it might now carry some weight when I say that I've never met an a-hole who's nasty to other people but are nice to their friends, family or strangers of the same citizenship or skin tone.  Have you?

Often it's the reversed. That a nasty piece of work to "strangers" soon enough turn completely against those that are kind to them, helped them, give them everything but became of no use or of less use.

Don't know about you but I certainly do not want to rely on people who stomp on the poor and the weak to have my back and be loyal to me.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

Boggo said:


> You seem to be confusing real refugees with economic "refugees" who have the funds, contacts and ability to pick and choose what country they want to leech off.
> 
> To reduce your apparent confusion the link below may help as it shows what real refugees look like.
> You wont see the ABC cameras there nor will you hear any stupid comments from Sea Patrol Sarah because she wouldn't have a bloody clue where the place is !
> https://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/...mber-2017/the-rohingya-crisis-behind-the-lens




If the asylum seeker are found to be non-genuine, then send them back or imprison them for false pretences or whatever. 

To do that, and do it fairly, you'd have to allow them the opportunity to prove their claims. 

And judging them by the branded handbag they carry, the destination or method or places they claim asylum from... or just lock them up and not hear about their "bs"... That's not only immoral, it's breaking our own international treaty and obligation.

And under that UN convention on refugee, of which Australia is a signatory to, seeking asylum is not an offence. 

-----------

Why do you think the Rohingya, recently, and the Syrian refugees for a brief period some two years ago... get the special status of being considered "genuine" refugees?

It's not because they suffer more, or their countries got destroyed more and there are "obvious" evidence of persecution and genocide. And I'm not saying that the Rohingya and the Syrian are not suffering, far from it.

But our politicians and our press barons permit us to care more, or to not give a shiet, about selected groups of refugees based on geopolitical master plan.

There are worthy victims and then there are "migrants" and economic "refugees". 

Those that are victims of our enemies are the worthy ones. Those we or our ally directly or indirectly cause... They're just leeches and evil savages flocking to our shore for our welfare systems.

Do we even have a welfare system btw?


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## Wysiwyg (27 November 2017)

Seems to be a crossing of definitions regarding "refugee" and "asylum seeker" seeking refugee status. The Government has made it clear if they pay a peole smuggler to get them to Australia they are neither. Consider them "assessed". The correct path is to file a claim for asylum and await assessment. I suppose their country would have to be war torn or under dictatorship as a few obvious reasons.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Seems to be a crossing of definitions regarding "refugee" and "asylum seeker" seeking refugee status. The Government has made it clear if they pay a peole smuggler to get them to Australia they are neither. Consider them "assessed". The correct path is to file a claim for asylum and await assessment. I suppose their country would have to be war torn or under dictatorship as a few obvious reasons.




Seems the accepted definition of a refugee is some poor bastard staying where they are, or where we're not, wait until we find it convenient to drop by to see what's going on.


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## Wysiwyg (27 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Seems the accepted definition of a refugee is some poor bastard staying where they are, or where we're not, wait until we find it convenient to drop by to see what's going on.



What do you do to save the millions of people suffering in the world? Throw them some money to ease their suffering or play compassionate one on forums. You could be on the ground in Burma doing something practical.


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## luutzu (27 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> What do you do to save the millions of people suffering in the world? Throw them some money to ease their suffering or play compassionate one on forums. You could be on the ground in Burma doing something practical.




We can't all be Jesus or Buddha man. Though that doesn't mean we have to be totally ignorant pricks about the suffering of others.

That and I'm definitely sure the refugees don't need my money - there isn't much of it to go around.

I don't mean to play this or that character. I'm trying to be a capitalist if that's any hint of the kind of guy I am. 

Anyway, merely pointing out misconceptions people might have about this and that group of people. Sharing knowledge, if you will.


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## basilio (28 November 2017)

Macquack said:


> Why is it the same crowd that feign concern for the refugees that perished at sea when they dont give a f*ck anyway and would be the first to volunteer to maintain the borders with guns drawn. Bloody hypocrites.




Yeeesss.  Hearing the concern from Senator Brandis and co about saving refugees from drowning while destroying them by inches with unlimited detention is a real mind xuck.


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## Macquack (28 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> What do you do to save the millions of people suffering in the world? Throw them some money to ease their suffering or play compassionate one on forums. You could be on the ground in Burma doing something practical.



Don't question my comrade luutzu unless you can provide a fully audited statement of your charitable work. Donations to the Shane Warne Foundation do not qualify.


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## Wysiwyg (28 November 2017)

Macquack said:


> Don't question my comrade luutzu unless you can provide a fully audited statement of your charitable work. Donations to the Shane Warne Foundation do not qualify.



I get regular charity mail and telephone calls and if I leave the front door open, door knocks. Having been a collector I know what it is like to be rejected as I so often do nowadays due to the volume of requests..


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## drsmith (16 December 2017)

29 Sri-Lankan's attempting to arrive by boat have been returned to country of origin.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sri-lankan-asylum-seekers-returned

What these intermittent attempts show is that the people smugglers are still trying.


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## noirua (16 July 2018)




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## Tisme (16 July 2018)

noirua said:


>





And they say it's wrong to separate familes


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## SirRumpole (17 July 2018)

Turnbull is trying to blame Victoria for Sudanese gang violence, but it's his government that are letting them in.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...n-in-melbourne-malcolm-turnbull-says/10002556


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## basilio (28 July 2018)




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## dutchie (4 August 2018)

Europe is a joke (coming to Australia too)

The German Government Is Paying For Refugees To Return Home For 3-Week Vacation

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...t-paying-refugees-return-home-3-week-vacation


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2018)

Looks like we are going to get a "Little Sudan" to go with "Little Lebanon" and "Little Bejing".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...s-thrown-by-youth-gangs-taylors-hill/10092152


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## luutzu (9 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Looks like we are going to get a "Little Sudan" to go with "Little Lebanon" and "Little Bejing".
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...s-thrown-by-youth-gangs-taylors-hill/10092152




We'll be fine. Australia had dealt with a lot worst. Starting with the Poms and their convicts. Then the Irish mobs. Then the Italians and other Euro trash.


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## SirRumpole (9 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Starting with the Poms and their convicts. Then the Irish mobs. Then the Italians and other Euro trash.




Those guys actually worked for a living, not running riot and throwing rocks.


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## luutzu (9 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Those guys actually worked for a living, not running riot and throwing rocks.




They'll either be in prison or grow up and get married soon enough.

Not saying it's acceptable and such, just it's what's expected from youth who are either orphaned or whose parents are too busy working to prevent bad influence. 

It's been the same with every wave of refugees and mass immigrants. And of course it's only a small percentage so we shouldn't generalise to the entire community either. But of course that can't sell papers as much.


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## moXJO (9 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> They'll either be in prison or grow up and get married soon enough.
> 
> Not saying it's acceptable and such, just it's what's expected from youth who are either orphaned or whose parents are too busy working to prevent bad influence.
> 
> It's been the same with every wave of refugees and mass immigrants. And of course it's only a small percentage so we shouldn't generalise to the entire community either. But of course that can't sell papers as much.



Poor coppers have an endless cycle:

Racial group causes problems.

Community outrage.

Police target offenders till the don't want to go outside.

Police cop shiit, called racist.

Offenders grow up, problem over.

Repeat.


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## wayneL (2 November 2018)




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## luutzu (2 November 2018)

wayneL said:


>





That or maybe they also heard that Trump is planning to send up to 15,000 soldiers to stop refugees from "invading" 'merka. 

When someone sends 3x more soldiers to stop people like yourself than they do in Iraq... probably not have that much faith in their promises.


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## wayneL (3 November 2018)

luutzu said:


> That or maybe they also heard that Trump is planning to send up to 15,000 soldiers to stop refugees from "invading" 'merka.
> 
> When someone sends 3x more soldiers to stop people like yourself than they do in Iraq... probably not have that much faith in their promises.




You're conflating the two things? 

Really? 

SMDH


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## Knobby22 (3 November 2018)

Something weird about this report. No mention in any other media and all other News Corp sources say the words according to the Daily Telegraph. Are you able to supply the actual article Wayne?


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## Darc Knight (3 November 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Something weird about this report. No mention in any other media and all other News Corp sources say the words according to the Daily Telegraph. Are you able to supply the actual article Wayne?




"According to the Daily Telegraph"


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## luutzu (3 November 2018)

wayneL said:


> You're conflating the two things?
> 
> Really?
> 
> SMDH




I made the assumption that Murdoch's Daily Tele reports the facts accurately - i.e. those refugees rejected the offer from the US because no welfare payment. 

Taking their rejection as fact, the reason for them rejecting the offer could be other than mere welfare payment... could be due to, I don't know, a racist president sending in a literal military to "welcome" other "invaders". 

---------

Saw an interesting interview with some hippy professor on political dog whistling. 

Just as Reagan hinting at Black undeserving welfare queen cheating honest taxpayers money must be stopped... stopped by gutting welfare for every god dam poor people... you know, just to be safe. Just like Billy Clinton talking about ending "welfare as a way of life"... so you have to cut it further, make it a lot tougher for those parasites [that aren't of course White or deserving]... 

End result... welfare gets cut, poor people of every race, colour, religion all get stuffed... 

Same with these rubbish about refugees seeking welfare, being parasitic; same with calling them invaders, having nothing to run away from like gangs, dictators, famine... those aren't real reasons to flee to anywhere at all. 

See, idea is you first demonise and dress your victims up as "other (nasty) people". You get to do what you want, on all people. 

So that's how it's done when it comes to dealing with poor peasants. 

For the rich plutocrats [aka, job creators; aka entrepreneurs who love nothing but trickling down their cash if they have more of it]... for those you cannot possibly say they should be given more money. That'd be a bit unpopular in a democracy.

So you call it cutting read tapes, job creation, helping the little struggling billionaires so they can help all of us. 

Same result though. Money get shifted from the poor and up to the rich.


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## Ferret (3 November 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Something weird about this report. No mention in any other media and all other News Corp sources say the words according to the Daily Telegraph. Are you able to supply the actual article Wayne?




Passing reference at the end of this SMH article:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...ealand-solution-rejected-20181102-p50dnr.html

"Separately, advocates confirmed a number of refugees on Nauru had rejected resettlement offers from the United States as part of the deal struck under former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull.

Mr Dutton this week said 71 refugees had rejected a US offer or withdrawn from the process. Jana Favero, advocacy director at the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, said she doubted the figure was that high, but confirmed a "handful" of refugees on Nauru had pulled out of the US arrangement.

These were mostly people who had family in Australia and were concerned about being separated from them permanently, she said."


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## sptrawler (11 November 2018)

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...watching-and-who-doesn-t-20181110-p50fae.html

It is a difficult situation the press doesn't want people thrown out of the Country, and they don't want terrorists in the Country and they want the Government to sort it within those parameters. lol
What a weird Country Australia has become, the press dictates what is right and wrong, but take no responsibility for the outcomes.
The Government tries to facilitate what the press wants, because the press has the ear of the masses, and then when it goes pear shaped the press blames the Government.
When is the Government going to go back to its roots of Governing, and stop trying to pander to a press that has no loyalty to anything other than circulation or ratings?

Just my observations and opinions, not saying anyone is right or wrong, just wish someone would take the tiller.


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## basilio (20 November 2018)

Intriguing to see the outpouring of grief at the death  of Sisto Malispina Co owner of Pelligrinis. Of course the full story of how Sisto was seen when he first came to Australia is  quietly forgotton.

Maybe not.

* Australia’s history of anti-Italian racism echoes grotesquely in rhetoric about Sudanese people *
Jeff Sparrow
We can understand the grief over Sisto Malaspina’s death as illustrating the potential to overcome prejudice

 @Jeff_Sparrow 
Tue 20 Nov 2018 10.39 AEDT   Last modified on Tue 20 Nov 2018 11.54 AEDT

*Shares*
87
 
* Comments*
 38 



That long history of anti-Italian racism makes the public embrace of Pellegrini’s both remarkable and relevant.
Photograph: Michael Dodge/Getty Images
“Melbourne will stop tomorrow and the nation will watch as the city pays its respects to an Italian-born cafe proprietor whose death at the hands of a deranged assailant has rubbed raw a debate about immigration numbers, refugee intake, ethnic crime and Islamist-inspired terrorism.”

That’s Fairfax columnist Tony Walker, arguing on Monday that the murder of Sisto Malaspina, the co-owner of Pellegrini’s, should prompt “a root and branch conversation about the costs and benefits of Australia’s immigration and refugee intake programs”.

Well, perhaps that’s true – but not in the way that he thinks.

The history of Malaspina’s beloved Pellegrini’s illustrates the obvious similarities between the prejudices of the past and those that lurk at the edges of Walker’s piece.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tesque-echo-of-rhetoric-about-sudanese-people


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## orr (31 August 2019)

The ghastly epoch of of politically confected fear drags slowly toward its irrevocable human intersect of the torturer suffering the consequences of 'his' actions ... self-loathing self-disrespect and self-hate. 
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...to-quit-peter-duttons-home-affairs-department

It's not your fault HA Dept employ's; it's the gutless politicians who've worked the prejudices of the weaker minded elements of our society at great cost...


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## basilio (7 October 2019)

What happens when refugees give up hope..

*  Explainer: what is resignation syndrome and why is it affecting refugee children?  *
August 22, 2018 12.30pm AEST
*Author*







	

		
			
		

		
	
 Louise Newman 
Director of the Centre for Women’s Mental Health at the Royal Women’s Hospital and Professor of Psychiatry, University of Melbourne

*Disclosure statement*
Louise Newman is affiliated with the human rights group Doctors for Justice and is a past advisor to the Department of Immigration on the mental health of asylum seekers and refugees.

Reports from Nauru are raising concerns about an outbreak of a severe trauma-related mental disorder known as traumatic withdrawal syndrome, or resignation syndrome.

Recent legal action resulted in urgent medical evacuation of a child in an unconscious state following a progressive social withdrawal and failure to speak, eat or drink. The child was unresponsive, dehydrated and at risk of death from the physical complications of this extreme state.

Medical experts noted there are no adequate medical or mental health facilities on Nauru to treat this condition. This outbreak raises serious questions about the impact of our offshore facilities for vulnerable populations and the capacity of the current system to respond adequately. 
https://theconversation.com/explain...d-why-is-it-affecting-refugee-children-101670


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## sptrawler (23 October 2019)

Not Australia, but a sad story from the U.K.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-23/39-bodies-found-in-essex-truck-driver-arrested/11633320

British police say the bodies of 39 people have been found in a truck container at an industrial estate to the east of London


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## sptrawler (13 March 2020)

Asylum seekers are finding the EU is a bit different now.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...er-to-migrants-in-greece-20200313-p549wq.html


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## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

The E.U still having issues with asylum seekers.


			EU weighs further sanctions on Belarus over illegal migrants


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## basilio (19 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The E.U still having issues with asylum seekers.
> 
> 
> EU weighs further sanctions on Belarus over illegal migrants



https://twitter.com/mrjamesob
James OhBrien

@mrjamesob
·
22h

The government wants to offer immunity to people who cause other people to drown in the English Channel. They think, quite plausibly, that this will be electorally popular. I think the conversation about decency in politics might be starting in the wrong place.


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## sptrawler (15 April 2022)

England signs an agreement with Rwanda to resettle asylum seekers who enter the country illegally.
 That may stem the flow somewhat.









						UK plans to send asylum seekers to Rwanda
					

The UK government's plans to send asylum seekers to Rwanda to be resettled is met with swift criticism as concerns are raised about Rwanda's human rights record.




					www.abc.net.au


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