# Child stoned to death in Somalia



## Garpal Gumnut (5 November 2008)

From the SMH and the Guardian.


gg


Rape victim, 13, stoned to death in stadium

    *

    * Stoned to death for adultery after court ruling

AN ISLAMIST rebel administration in Somalia ordered that a girl, 13, be stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported that she was raped by three men.

Amnesty International said the al-Shabab militia, which controls the city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow in front of about 1000 spectators. A truck laden with stones was brought to the stadium for the killing. Amnesty said the girl struggled with her captors and had to be forcibly carried into the stadium. Amnesty said: "Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a bystander."

The girl's father told Amnesty that when he tried to report her rape to the militia the child was accused by the administration of adultery and detained.

None of the men accused of the rape was arrested. The girl was earlier reported by witnesses as being 23 years old.

Guardian News & Media


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## MrBurns (5 November 2008)

*Re: godbotherers murder a child*

Fithy animals.

If you knew what really goes on around the world you'd lock yourself away.

Send in the troops kill the lot except the young who can be retrained to be human beings.

P/S I believe she was buried up to her neck.


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## albaloushi (5 November 2008)

This is the real story Garpal Gumnut 
Please check your sources next time

Woman stoned to death for adultery after Somali court ruling
Oct 27, 2008

MOGADISHU (AFP) ”” Thousands of people gathered Monday to witness 50 Somali men stone a woman to death after an Islamic court in the southern port of Kismayo found her guilty of adultery, witnesses said.

Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow, who had been found guilty of extra-marital intercourse was buried in the ground up to her neck while the men pelted her head with rocks.

"Our sister Aisha asked the Islamic Sharia court in Kismayo to be charged and punished for the crime she committed," local Islamist leader Sheikh Hayakallah told the crowd.

"She admitted in front of the court to engaging in adulterous sexual intercourse," he added.

"She was asked several times to review her confession but she stressed that she wanted Sharia law and the deserved punishment to apply."

The execution was carried in one of the city's main squares.

The port of Kismayo was seized in August by a coalition of forces loyal to rebel leader Hassan Turki, and the Shebab, the country's main radical Islamist insurgent organisation.

Turki is listed as a terrorist financier by Washington.

The new administration formed there began implementing a strict form of Sharia (Islamic law).

"This afternoon we are telling the people of Kismayo that we are practising a punishment that is rare in this region and was carried out in Kismayo for the first time," Sheikh Hayakallah said.

Cameras were banned from the public stoning but print and radio journalists were allowed to attend.


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## MrBurns (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> This is the real story Garpal Gumnut
> Please check your sources next time
> 
> Woman stoned to death for adultery after Somali court ruling
> ...




Ohhh I understand now thats ok then fine no problems, just a little stoning between friends.

The whole thing is inhuman carried out by those who are less than human.


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## albaloushi (5 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Ohhh I understand now thats ok then fine no problems, just a little stoning between friends.
> 
> The whole thing is inhuman carried out by those who are less than human.





And you think torturing people in jails in Iraq, bomping villeges by F-16 and killing women and children is human.....Have you had any objection on that?


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## MrBurns (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> And you think torturing people in jails in Iraq, bomping villeges by F-16 and killing women and children is human.....Have you had any objection on that?




What's that got to do with 50 men murdering a defenseless girl ?


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## albaloushi (5 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> What's that got to do with 50 men murdering a defenseless girl ?





Sorry for confusing, but the point I am trying to make here that some people close their eyes on horrible big things and open their eyes on tinny events.  Before expressing your opinion –and you might think its right- you should have background on the issue –its Islamic Shareaa here-then you can make a reasonable judgment.  This part of the world is NOT as bad as you think people.  

Many thnakx


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## MrBurns (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> Sorry for confusing, but the point I am trying to make here that some people close their eyes on horrible big things and open their eyes on tinny events.  Before expressing your opinion –and you might think its right- you should have background on the issue –its Islamic Shareaa here-then you can make a reasonable judgment.  This part of the world is NOT as bad as you think people.
> 
> Many thnakx




I know it's your religion and all that but it's the vilest form of human rights abuse to perpetrate a crime like that.

If your religion supports this barbaric behavior someone among you should be doing something about it.


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## nick2fish (5 November 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> From the SMH and the Guardian.
> 
> 
> gg
> ...





Thats the version of events that I read as well via The Australian online. I'm not in the habit of validating news reports , I'll leave that to others and the court system


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## gav (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> This is the real story Garpal Gumnut
> Please check your sources next time
> 
> Woman stoned to death for adultery after Somali court ruling
> ...




So after committing adultery, she asked to be stoned to death?


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## fimmwolf (5 November 2008)

lol, yeah.

What good Muslim wouldn't ask to be stoned to death?

The word *Islam* has two meanings:  

* peace

* submission

I guess she knew the submission bit, better than the courts knew the peace bit.


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## classer (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> This is the real story Garpal Gumnut
> Please check your sources next time




ok my sources have a very different story to tell

By David Williams (Daily Mail)

A girl of 13 begged for mercy moments before a mob buried her up to her shoulders and stoned her to death, it was claimed yesterday. 

The Somalian youngster is said to have pleaded 'Don't kill me, don't kill me' before her horrific execution in front of a 1,000-strong crowd. 

A boy is thought to have been shot dead amid the appalling scenes inside a football stadium in Kismayu, a rebel-held port.

According to Amnesty International, the girl was 13 and had been raped by three men. 

Officials say she was 23 and had confessed adultery before an Islamic court. 

The stoning, which took place on October 28, is the first public killing in war-torn Somalia for two years. 

Convicting a girl of 13 for adultery would be illegal under sharia law but the authorities said she had lied about her age. Print and radio journalists who were allowed to attend the execution put her age at 23. 

Amnesty and Unicef, the UN children's agency, said that the girl, identified as Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow, was raped while travelling to see a relative in Mogadishu, the Somalian capital. 

Her family is said to have tried to report the crime to the militia who control Kismayu, only for Aisha to be arrested and accused of adultery. None of the men she accused of rape was detained. 

David Copeman, Amnesty's Somalia campaigner, said: 'This was not justice, nor was it an execution. This child suffered an horrendous death at the behest of the armed opposition groups who currently control Kismayu. 

'This killing is yet another human rights abuse committed by the combatants in Somalia and again demonstrates the importance of international action to investigate and document such abuses, through an international commission of inquiry.' 

Amnesty said partway through the stoning nurses checked whether Aisha was still alive. They pulled her body out of the ground to ascertain she was still breathing before the stoning continued. 

A Unicef statement said: 'She sought protection from the authorities, who then accused her of adultery and sentenced her to death. 

'A child was victimised twice  -  first by the perpetrators of the rape and then by those responsible for administering justice.' 

The agency said the incident highlighted the vulnerability of girls and women in Somalia, which has suffered civil conflict for the past 17 years. 

In the latest cycle, Islamist rebels are fighting the government and their backers in the Ethiopian military. 

A witness told the BBC the woman had begged for her life and had been crying as she was forced into the hole in the ground. 

He said the girl had asked the Islamic administration in Kismayo: 'What do you want from me?' 

They replied : 'We will do what Allah has instructed us.' 

She said: 'I'm not going, I'm not going. Don't kill me, don't kill me.' 

The witness added: 'A few minutes later more than 50 men tried to stone her.' 

He said no one tried to stop the Islamist officials, who were armed.


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## Panacea (5 November 2008)

What a miserable way to treat a human being. Whether it was rape or adultery, or she was 13 or 23, it's still a disgraceful act.


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## Buddy (5 November 2008)

albaloushi, I think you have your head up your bum chum. Amnesty is generally a truthful organisation. Have a read of what they say. Amnesty say that this happened (a 13 year old girl was stoned to death). Anyway, regardless of whether it was a child who was raped or a woman committing adultery, this is a barbaric crime committed by a mob of crazy godbothering subhuman species. No excuses chum, sharia or not. Somalia, is typical of the 6th century barbarians that inhabit that part of the world.


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## cuttlefish (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> And you think torturing people in jails in Iraq, bomping villeges by F-16 and killing women and children is human.....Have you had any objection on that?




The vast majority of people have objected to or condemned these acts, but they do demonstrate that barbaric acts can be perpetrated by all cultures. (which is not news to anyone thats read a bit of history).

This event (the stoning of this young girl) is an abhorrant act and should also be condemned.


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## spartn (5 November 2008)

Hi Guyz

I remember reading this story not long ago on the internet it truly is Fu*king pathetic! people who would even be able to think of doing this should be taken out of society. How could you do this to a middle aged Women let alone a 13yr old girl. 

Sadly it is nothing new. My mate who is from Eygpt told me a story how a young girl in Saudi Arabia was raped by one of her friends. She was wearing a thing that muslim women wear on the head and pants, but because she was wearing a tank top the court decided that the friend was provoked into raping her and was let scott free and the prize to the girl for being raped '50 lashes'.

I also remember reading in the Herald Sun last week about a 21yr old boy at University in Afghanistan who passed out pamplets out to other Uni students which was about increasing the rights to Women, and he was lucky to get 20yrs in jail considering he was up for the Death Penalty.

Remember 'Afghanistan' is where ours and our allies have died to try and bring hope to the Country. Taliban, Al Qaeda or the new government in charge the Afghanistan people have no future.

I think the comment Pope Benedict XVI made in 2006 was spot on "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached

Spartn 

:viking:


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## refined silver (5 November 2008)

Panacea said:


> What a miserable way to treat a human being. Whether it was rape or adultery, or she was 13 or 23, it's still a disgraceful act.




I agree its disgraceful, no matter what, but there is actually a difference.

1. If it was for adultery, and it was proven, where was the man? It takes two for adultery doesn't it? If they had both been stoned, still pretty abhorent, but at least you could say they tried to be just, however much we may disagree with the penalties. Since it was just the woman stoned (the girl actually) you can say it was totally injust, sexist, discriminatory, blatant and violent cruelty against a sub-species - women.

2. It wasn't actually for adultery. It was a girl who was gang raped!! Twice betrayed!!

You could call the Islamic court and stoners who did this barbaric animals, bit what animals treat each other this way?

3. Don't pretend all cultures or religions are similar. Without any knowledge of the country or religion involved, if people were told what happened, 99% of people could have guessed the religion responsible. Its pure garbage there's no difference.


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## fimmwolf (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> And you think torturing people in jails in Iraq, bomping villeges by F-16 and killing women and children is human.....Have you had any objection on that?




I think many Australians do condemn such actions. You'll note that such allegations have not been made with regard to the ADF (Australian Defence Force). Who are professional soldiers, and who have very different rules of engagement to the American's.




> Before expressing your opinion –and you might think its right- you should have background on the issue –its Islamic Shareaa here-then you can make a reasonable judgment. This part of the world is NOT as bad as you think people.
> 
> Many thnakx




Are you saying that because it's sharia law, it's right?



> In practice Sharia law has often resulted in women living in fear or disadvantage. In instances of rape Sharia law require for an allegation to be validated, victims must have *four Muslim-Male witnesses to the crime* or else the victims risk being charged with fornication or adultery making a rejected allegation a potential death sentence for the victim.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Which is to say Muslim women cant tell the truth without the affirmation of a male. And you are telling me this is right, or is real justice?


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## agro (5 November 2008)

stoning is quiet common within islamic countries

just saying - so this is nothing new..


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## Green08 (5 November 2008)

Primative and disgusting.  Which ever way you spin the story.

But should she be 13 or 23 in the USA and McCain was in she would have been forced to have that baby and have no assistance to her mental trauma.
Is that a sign of any improved behaviour from the West?


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## Bushman (5 November 2008)

Gawd a bit more Muslim-bashing hey. The media dish it up and the angry men of the right lap it up. 

Find the worst example and pin the crime against a billion people. Propaganga 101. Makes us all feel better about bombing the faark out of a few villagers in Afghanistan. 

Same old media, same old ****e. They do know their audience after all.


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## kitehigh (5 November 2008)

From my own experience in Somalia I found a lot of the man to be pathetic creatures with no work ethic what soever.  They are quite happy to let the woman do most of the work, which includes carrying heavy loads and doing all sorts of menial tasks.  All the man were good at is chewing Chat, which makes them high than shooting off their weapons.

Even the rest of the Africans I spoke to consider Somalia the toilet of Africa.  They have no bright future ahead of them, only death and destruction.


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## mayk (5 November 2008)

kitehigh said:


> From my own experience in Somalia I found a lot of the man to be pathetic creatures with no work ethic what soever.  They are quite happy to let the woman do most of the work, which includes carrying heavy loads and doing all sorts of menial tasks.  All the man were good at is chewing Chat, which makes them high than shooting off their weapons.
> 
> Even the rest of the Africans I spoke to consider Somalia the toilet of Africa.  They have no bright future ahead of them, only death and destruction.




Have they got any resources?


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## mayk (5 November 2008)

Bushman said:


> Gawd a bit more Muslim-bashing hey. The media dish it up and the angry men of the right lap it up.
> 
> Find the worst example and pin the crime against a billion people. Propaganga 101. Makes us all feel better about bombing the faark out of a few villagers in Afghanistan.
> 
> Same old media, same old ****e. They do know their audience after all.




Agreed here, but still think the shria as refined_silver pointed out should be meted out to both. I think it has more to do with political point scoring by militia then implementation of sharia.


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## mayk (5 November 2008)

albaloushi said:


> Sorry for confusing, but the point I am trying to make here that some people close their eyes on horrible big things and open their eyes on tinny events.  Before expressing your opinion –and you might think its right- you should have background on the issue –its Islamic Shareaa here-then you can make a reasonable judgment.  This part of the world is NOT as bad as you think people.
> 
> Many thnakx




Well you should also do some fact checking too. According to sharia, a non-married women/men will only endure 70 lashes. Not death by stoning, which can only be meted out in case of fornication (sex while being married with another women, who must be also married or vice versa). It is not sharia, it is political point scoring, while a soul (in mysterious circumstances (13,23,sex,rape?) is lost.


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## Sean K (6 November 2008)

Stoning to death has been used by most cultures as a form of capital punishment, probably because it was pretty simple, and a nice way to cause lots of pain during the punishment. It's referred to a few times in both the Torah and the Bible, from memory. 

So, it's just another part of human history. We're a brutal beast.

The problem with it still being a punishment is that it's not relevant to the modern world. We've changed, and there is a different set of human values guiding most of the world we live in.

Except in places which have Sharia Law.

Stoned to death for adultory (or rape)....WTF!!

Stuck in 6th century values and morals unfortunately. 

But, they're still living in the 6th century, so if the shoe fits..

All pretty confusing from an arm chair in Peru...


PS, Here is an example of a stoning around the time of JC


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## J.B.Nimble (6 November 2008)

Ranks right up there with burning witches and heretics at the stake, shooting abortion doctors, and gassing Jews. People are capable of great evil when swept along in a group but please don't blame on it on the religion - far, far too easy. Having previously lived six years in a muslim country I can only feel admiration for the basic human decency and gentle nature of the people I encountered every day - these characteristics being an absolute expression of their faith. This act would be as repugnant to them as it is to us. 

Might have considered becoming muslim myself but for the wear and tear on the knees and the lopping off of the foreskin bit...


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## Sean K (6 November 2008)

Just removed a few posts off track people.

Lets keep the topic on death and stones...

Cheers.


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## Aussiejeff (6 November 2008)

Hmm. Discovered these verses from the Christian Old Testament condoning stoning as a form of capital punishment - they seem to have a familiar (and disturbing) ring about them ...

--------------------------

Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deu 21:21 *And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die*: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. 


and,


Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, *The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp*. 

----------------------

Mmmm. What a kind, benevolent Lord! I wonder how many men, women and children have been stoned to death since those "sincere" words were written? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

All in the name of CHRISTIANITY? Jesus wept...... we sure have short memories.

Maybe the poor, ignorant Muslim folk of Afghanistan, Iran, Nigeria (about one-third of its 36 states), Pakistan, Sudan, and the United Arab Emirates - countries that recently or still do condone the law of stoning - have taken the word of the Christian Old Testament as LAW. Apparently, the original Koran doesn't mention or explicitly condone stoning as a form of punishment. MOST Muslim states are against it as it gives them all a bad name.

In any case, it's just worth remembering that the Christian Old Testament first gave legal, written licence to this barbaric practice - Christian words that should have been subsequently struck out and condemned OFFICIALLY by all Christian leaders, but AFAIK never have been. 

While ever an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth " remain the accepted buzzwords for many aggrieved Christians, some Muslim nations might not be so forthcoming in changing some of their own corrupted, OT-inspired laws.  

The sadistic inhumanity of humans vs humans (ANY excuse will do sometimes, it seems) can be so depressing... 


aj


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## Sean K (6 November 2008)

Aussiejeff said:


> Hmm. Discovered these verses from the Christian Old Testament condoning stoning as a form of capital punishment - they seem to have a familiar (and disturbing) ring about them ...
> 
> aj



Yeah, probably didn't have death by lethal injection or the electrc chair back then.

Here's some examples from Wiki on why you should be stoned to death:

*Torah*

The Torah of the Jews, which is contained in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and as such serves as a common religious reference, prescribes death by stoning for a long series of offenses, namely:

Touching Mount Sinai while God was giving Moses the Ten Commandments (Exodus 19:13) 
An ox that gores someone to death should be stoned (Exodus 21:28) 
Breaking the Shabbat (Numbers 15:32-36) 
Giving one's "seed" (presumably one's offspring) "to Molech" (Leviticus 20:2-5) 
Having a "familiar spirit" (or being a necromancer) or being a "wizard" (Lev. 20:27) 
Cursing God (Lev. 24:10-16) 
Engaging in idolatry (Deuteronomy 17:2-7) or seducing others to do so (Deut. 13:7-12) 
"Rebellion" against parents (Deut. 21,21) 
Getting married as though a virgin, when not a virgin (Deut. 22:13-21) 
Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman engaged to another man (both should be stoned, Deut. 22:23-24) 

*Mishna*

The Mishna gives the following list of persons who should be stoned (Sanhedrin Chapter 7, p. 53a [2])

A man who has sexual intercourse with one of the following (see Lev. 20, which however does not specify the form of execution): 
his mother 
his father's wife 
his daughter-in-law 
another man 
an animal ("bestiality") 
A woman who allows an animal to have sexual intercourse with her 
A blasphemer 
An idolater 
One who gives his seed to Molech 
A necromancer or wizard 
One who desecrates the sabbath 
One who curses his father and mother 
One who has sexual intercourse with a betrothed maiden 
One who incites or instigates (toward idolatry) 
A sorcerer 
A wayward and rebellious son 


Crikey, a wayward son? I should have been rocked when I was about 6.

A sorcerer? OK

Next time I'm at Mt Sinai, I promise not interupt God.....



Nice place Mt Sinai...


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## Pat (12 November 2008)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7722701.stm



> Public anger at the recent stoning of a 13-year-old girl in Somalia shows the growing resentment towards radical Islamists who have gained control of much of the south and centre of the country.




Could extremism be on the way out, will the 'good' muslims finally stand up?


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## Judd (12 November 2008)

I do not consider that one should bag any religion or those who hold a particular faith.  Condemn an atrocity conducted by humans using religion as the justification for that atrocity perpetrated on another human by all means but it is not the religion _per se_ which is at fault - speaking as a one who was baptised as a lapsed Roman Catholic.


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## MrBurns (12 November 2008)

Judd said:


> I do not consider that one should bag any religion or those who hold a particular faith.  Condemn an atrocity conducted by humans using religion as the justification for that atrocity perpetrated on another human by all means but it is not the religion _per se_ which is at fault - speaking as a one who was baptised as a lapsed Roman Catholic.




Call it what you like but if it's Muslims doing the deed, extremists or not, one tends to think that if they weren't Muslims they wouldn't do it.


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## MS+Tradesim (12 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Call it what you like but if it's Muslims doing the deed, extremists or not, one tends to think that if they weren't Muslims they wouldn't do it.




Incorrect. It is a *type* of person that does these things. They do not occur merely because of religion. It is power and control in the hands of a class of people that causes suffering under the hands of other humans. Religion is merely one tool at the disposal of such people. If they didn't have religion they would would act out similarly under another ideology.

The *objective* research that religion is not even a large threat to humanity is available for those who care to look beyond the ignorant spiel of mainstream media sources and the subjectivism of the current trendy neo-atheist fundamentalists. 

Other research has also progressed the debunking of interpretations of the Stanford prison experiments, for example, that argued anyone will act in a barbaric way given the right environment. On the contrary those who are already prone to act barbarically will be attracted to environments where they are free to indulge their barbarism.

The single most deadly threat to the majority of people is democide, or death by one's own govt. That is why state-oriented ideology must always be resisted. It results in more atrocity than religion could ever be justifiably blamed over.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-1900.htm


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## MrBurns (12 November 2008)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Incorrect. It is a *type* of person that does these things. They do not occur merely because of religion. It is power and control in the hands of a class of people that causes suffering under the hands of other humans. Religion is merely one tool at the disposal of such people. If they didn't have religion they would would act out similarly under another ideology.




I dont see anyone but extremist Muslims hijacking planes and flying them into buildings in the middle of the USA or stoning kids to death or threatening Western society because they dont agree with us or bombing inocent people in nightclubs in Bali, it's all Muslims I'm afraid, this is a fact and beyond argument.


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## MS+Tradesim (12 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> I dont see anyone but extremist Muslims hijacking planes and flying them into buildings in the middle of the USA or stoning kids to death or threatening Western society because they dont agree with us or bombing inocent people in nightclubs in Bali, it's all Muslims I'm afraid, this is a fact and beyond argument.




This conflates an effect with its cause - like arguing that because it is light prior to sunrise, ergo the light causes the sun to rise. It is incidental that these people are Muslim. Their being Islamic is not the cause of their behaviour, anymore than a person's being German meant they had to participate in the Holocaust. The people who do these things do so because they are barbaric by nature, not because they are Muslim.

Framing an argument in a certain way to indulge a particular conclusion is not the way to convince other people of the merits of your beliefs.


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## Judd (12 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> Call it what you like but if it's Muslims doing the deed, extremists or not, one tends to think that if they weren't Muslims they wouldn't do it.




Is President Mugabe a follower of Islam?  No, he is supposedly Catholic.  And what is he inflicting on his people?

Your call but do not use the term "jihad" when you attempt to justify your stance.  It has a number of layers and meanings within the Qur'an and not necessarily the one people (in a general sense) would expect.


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## Bushman (12 November 2008)

kennas said:


> Nice place Mt Sinai...




Yes - Mt Sinai was one of the most beautiful sites I have ever visited. 

Mr Burns - err all 'terrorists are Muslim'? Then how do you explain this lot:
1. IRA
2. Basque Separatists
3. Tamil Tigers
4. Shining Path
5. Una Bomber
6. ANC
7. Kurdish Workers Party
8. et al ? 

Terrorism is a geo-political tool. Religion, being populist, is a handy cloak for the agitators to hide behind. Stop blaming the ancient texts for the actions of the moralists of the 21st century. (PS: just made up 'moralists' - why not? 'Terrorist' is a similar invention after all.)


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## MrBurns (12 November 2008)

> =Bushman;360997]
> Mr Burns - err all 'terrorists are Muslim'? Then how do you explain this lot:





I didn't say that, you see you put words in peoples mouths to suit your own argument. I did say that the word "terrorist" has become synonymous with Muslims of late because they seem to be doing most of it.



> 1. IRA
> 2. Basque Separatists
> 3. Tamil Tigers
> 4. Shining Path
> ...




Dont seem to have been afraid any one of these might hijack any plane I've been in, you cant seem to see the difference and I dont give a root what "jihad" means to the learned or offended ones, if it's being shouted at Westeners in a threatening manner thats the way it will be interpreted.



> Their being Islamic is not the cause of their behaviour, anymore than a person's being German meant they had to participate in the Holocaust. The people who do these things do so because they are barbaric by nature, not because they are Muslim.




They do these deeds in the name of their religion so it would be resonable to assume that if they were brought up Catholic for instance they wouldn't be stoning children.


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## MS+Tradesim (12 November 2008)

MrBurns said:


> They do these deeds in the name of their religion so it would be resonable to assume that if they were brought up Catholic for instance they wouldn't be stoning children.




Using similar logic - "All Germans were complicit in the Holocaust and they would do it again given the opportunity." Repeating an invalid argument does not make it any more valid.

And that's my final comment if no valid reasoning is forthcoming.


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## MrBurns (12 November 2008)

MS+Tradesim said:


> Using similar logic - "All Germans were complicit in the Holocaust and they would do it again given the opportunity." Repeating an invalid argument does not make it any more valid.
> 
> And that's my final comment if no valid reasoning is forthcoming.




Not all Germans like not all Muslims but they do carry the smear like all Germans still do today and Japanese to some extent especially with WW2 diggers.


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## Judd (12 November 2008)

"and I dont give a root what "jihad" means to the learned or offended ones" equals "I'm too mentally lazy and bigoted to be even bothered finding out."


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## MrBurns (12 November 2008)

Judd said:


> "and I dont give a root what "jihad" means to the learned or offended ones" equals "I'm too mentally lazy and bigoted to be even bothered finding out."




I know it has varied meanings but I wont be distracted into going to night school to learn the Muslim faith in order not to offend.

Everyone knows what jihad means when screamed at Westerners, if you dont want it seen as a threat dont use it that way.


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## Pat (13 November 2008)

I agree with both sides of the debate here.

Islam seems to be the common factor when it comes to terrorism and what not. Though all people are capable of brutality etc.

I also agree that religion is not the final cause, but does contribute.

Extremism is the answer, and it's education that brings this extremism about...


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## It's Snake Pliskin (13 November 2008)

Pat said:


> I agree with both sides of the debate here.
> 
> Islam seems to be the common factor when it comes to terrorism and what not. Though all people are capable of brutality etc.
> 
> ...




Good comments Pat.

Some good books on the topic of Jihad etc:

http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Islamic...r_1_20?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226547484&sr=1-20

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding...r_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226547484&sr=1-21

http://www.amazon.com/Wahhabi-Islam...1_104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226547886&sr=1-104

The wahhabis are the real danger which is taliban and somali like attitudes.

http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Terroris...1_115?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226548021&sr=1-115


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## Julia (13 November 2008)

Pat said:


> Extremism is the answer, and it's education that brings this extremism about...



Perhaps I'm not getting your meaning here, but I'd have thought the opposite, i.e. that a broad education is counterproductive to any form of extremism?  We see this extremism at its worst in ill-educated people, viz the Bali Bombers.


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## Garpal Gumnut (13 November 2008)

Julia said:


> Perhaps I'm not getting your meaning here, but I'd have thought the opposite, i.e. that a broad education is counterproductive to any form of extremism?  We see this extremism at its worst in ill-educated people, viz the Bali Bombers.




Berlin, Vienna and Tokyo in 1933.??

Education is no defence against fascism.

And back to this poor child, stoned to death.

Its fascist.

gg


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## Sean K (14 November 2008)

Pat said:


> I also agree that religion is not the final cause, but does contribute.



I still contend that it's humans that are brutal, but some religions perpetuate the brutality by making some action and thought dogmatic and absolute. This stoning was a killing based on local religious law. Most of the rest of the world have moved on to courts of law, legal representation, and lethal injections for the most henious of crimes. Adultery (or being raped) is not a modern reason for capital punishment, but their religious law established in ancient times, makes it so. In this case, it IS the final cause.


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## MrBurns (14 November 2008)

kennas said:


> I still contend that it's humans that are brutal, but some religions perpetuate the brutality by making some action and thought dogmatic and absolute. This stoning was a killing based on local religious law. Most of the rest of the world have moved on to courts of law, legal representation, and lethal injections for the most henious of crimes. Adultery (or being raped) is not a modern reason for capital punishment, but their religious law established in ancient times, makes it so. In this case, it IS the final cause.




True, but there is another more disturbing element here.

Where is the humanity in people who can be so cruel to another human being, a young female, defenseless.

I cant help but consider that these people are still in the early stages of human development or have something missing within them.

Not one of us would do this regardless of law or religion and it's not education that makes us us that way it's just the elements that make us human.

The religion is the common thread that identifies those of this ilk however.

Humanity is strange however , you look back to Roman times and the feeding of people to the lions in Rome for instance, for pubic entertainment. were those also sub human ?

Maybe we're all just one step away from stoning children, argghhhh too much thinking not enough drinking.


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## Mofra (14 November 2008)

Pat said:


> Islam seems to be the common factor when it comes to terrorism and what not. Though all people are capable of brutality etc.
> 
> I also agree that religion is not the final cause, but does contribute.
> 
> Extremism is the answer, and it's education that brings this extremism about...



It isn't Islam, however your last post I agree with; extremism is the problem.

Tamil Tigers, IRA, ETA etc. all have an extreme element which is not dominated by a belief in an invisible man in the sky; none of these organisations are any less brutal for it.


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## Pat (15 November 2008)

Julia said:


> Perhaps I'm not getting your meaning here, but I'd have thought the opposite, i.e. that a broad education is counterproductive to any form of extremism?  We see this extremism at its worst in ill-educated people, viz the Bali Bombers.



My meaning is the education some Muslims receive is counterproductive period.
The extremist attitude runs rife in these countries due to the influence and education from religious leaders and people in power. Sheikh Hilali can be seen as an example.


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## Pat (15 November 2008)

I watched a program on TV not long ago about Neo Nazis in America. One part of the doco was about 2 children who are brought up in a Neo Nazi family. I could not belive my eyes when I saw what these kids where being taught, I felt sick... 2 little 8 yr old girls saluting to Hitler.  

Education is very powerful, and when extremists teach and preach an extremist attitude, extremism is what you get. It is not difficult to see how a child can be manipulated into suicide bombing, especially when they are manipulated by something as profound as religion.

Islamic religious leaders are in desperate need of regulation and law's based on ideals that are 1000's of years old are in need of reform. Though it would seem the results of 'no regulation' and '1000 yr old ideals' is holding back any possible change.  

To be pessimistic, it's another avenue to feed our self destructive ways.


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## Pat (15 November 2008)

kennas said:


> I still contend that it's humans that are brutal, but some religions perpetuate the brutality by making some action and thought dogmatic and absolute.






Mofra said:


> It isn't Islam...



IMO religion is the catalyst.


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## fimmwolf (15 November 2008)

Religion is just the excuse, what motivates people to harm others and bend them to another's will is a raw lust for dominance and power.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (15 November 2008)

fimmwolf said:


> Religion is just the excuse, what motivates people to harm others and bend them to another's will is a raw lust for dominance and power.



True, but ideology aka as religion is the vehicle for bending minds to believe.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (16 November 2008)

Pat said:


> My meaning is the education some Muslims receive is counterproductive period.
> The extremist attitude runs rife in these countries due to the influence and education from religious leaders and people in power. Sheikh Hilali can be seen as an example.




Read this:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0&item=128352

And this:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-useful-idiots-of-militant-islam/

It seems the militants have a helping hand in the fracturing of society.


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## Lantern (17 November 2008)

Worse than animals. This stuff really makes my blood boil.

This fellow has some interesting points.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h7iBoq_yC4k&feature=related


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## MrBurns (17 November 2008)

Lantern said:


> Worse than animals. This stuff really makes my blood boil.
> 
> This fellow has some interesting points.
> 
> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h7iBoq_yC4k&feature=related




Wow - too bad the politicians don't wake up and do something instead of bending over backwards to appease people who just will not fit in.


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## Pat (17 November 2008)

Good articles Snake.


It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Read this:
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0&item=128352



Why am I not surprised? Sad to see. 


It's Snake Pliskin said:


> And this:
> http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-useful-idiots-of-militant-islam/
> 
> It seems the militants have a helping hand in the fracturing of society.



Yes. All based on skewed philosophies from extremist Muslim leaders.


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## Pat (17 November 2008)

Lantern said:


> Worse than animals. This stuff really makes my blood boil.
> 
> This fellow has some interesting points.
> 
> http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h7iBoq_yC4k&feature=related



Thats a great vid Lantern. Thanks.
I can agree with everything he says, is his name Pat? Great name...

"I wish you peace, but you wouldn't know what to do with it."


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## Pat (17 November 2008)

It would seem that we need to educate our young on the morales of life too.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24662051-5006007,00.html


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 November 2008)

Pat said:


> It would seem that we need to educate our young on the morales of life too.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24662051-5006007,00.html




Pat I totally agree with you. To hear of footy stars glassing women shows how deep the problem may be. Stamp it out quick!


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## Bobby (18 November 2008)

Think this is worth a read !

Scary Facts About Islam 
Dr. Peter Hammond 


(Note: Many Muslims are disillusioned with Islam but are too fearful to think of escape. Please pray for them to know the God of love and peace.) 


Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.  Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components. 
Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well. 
Here's how it works. 
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in: 


United States-- Muslim 0.6% 
Australia-- Muslim 1.5% 
Canada-- Muslim 1.9% 
China-- Muslim 1.8% 
Italy-- Muslim 1.5% 
Norway-- Muslim 1.8%   


At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in: 
Denmark-- Muslim 2% 
Germany-- Muslim 3.7% 
United Kingdom-- Muslim 2.7% 
Spain-- Muslim 4% 
Thailand-- Muslim 4.6%   


From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply.   
This is occurring in: 


France-- Muslim 8% 
Philippines-- Muslim 5% 
Sweden-- Muslim 5% 
Switzerland-- Muslim 4.3% 
The Netherlands-- Muslim 5.5% 
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8% 


At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.   
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in: 


Guyana-- Muslim 10% 
India-- Muslim 13.4% 
Israel-- Muslim 16% 
Kenya-- Muslim 10% 
Russia-- Muslim 15%   


After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in: 


Ethiopia-- Muslim 32.8%   


At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in: 


Bosnia-- Muslim 40% 
Chad-- Muslim 53.1% 
Lebanon-- Muslim 59.7% 
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of  non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:     
Albania-- Muslim 70% 
Malaysia-- Muslim 60.4% 
Qatar-- Muslim 77.5% 
Sudan-- Muslim 70% 
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:     
Bangladesh-- Muslim 83% 
Egypt-- Muslim 90% 
Gaza-- Muslim 98.7% 
Indonesia-- Muslim 86.1% 
Iran-- Muslim 98% 
Iraq-- Muslim 97% 
Jordan-- Muslim 92% 
Morocco-- Muslim 98.7% 
Pakistan-- Muslim 97% 
Palestine-- Muslim 99% 
Syria-- Muslim 90% 
Tajikistan-- Muslim 90% 
Turkey-- Muslim 99.8% 
United Arab Emirates-- Muslim 96%   


100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in: 


Afghanistan-- Muslim 100% 
Saudi Arabia-- Muslim 100% 
Somalia-- Muslim 100% 
Yemen-- Muslim 100% 
Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.     
'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj' 


It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate. 


Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Some say Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 November 2008)

Bobby said:


> Think this is worth a read !
> 
> Scary Facts About Islam
> Dr. Peter Hammond
> ...



An interesting read Bobby.



> Khomeini took aim at a fundamental Western freedom: freedom of speech. In recent years, other Islamists have joined this crusade, seeking to undermine Western societies’ basic liberties and extend sharia within those societies.



Source:

http://www.city-journal.org/printable.php?id=2567

Cheers..


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## Bobby (18 November 2008)

Greetings Snake,

After reading that I can see why many cultures should put a stop to this mental pollution & poison .

But they won't will they , and we both know why !

Bob.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (18 November 2008)

Bobby said:


> Greetings Snake,
> 
> After reading that I can see why many cultures should put a stop to this mental pollution & poison .
> 
> ...




Bob,

I see it as cowardice of the west that will prolong the problems of islamofacism - whether their believers participate or not. Pretty sad really.

Cheers..


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## Bobby (18 November 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Bob,
> 
> I see it as cowardice of the west that will prolong the problems of islamofacism - whether their believers participate or not. Pretty sad really.
> 
> Cheers..




Yes Snake,
Most Aussies want less crap people coming here, the stupid refugee program riducules the majority who say no to this .

Bob.


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## Lantern (18 November 2008)

Thats a great vid Lantern. Thanks.
I can agree with everything he says, is his name Pat? Great name...


Yes his name is Pat Condell. Used to play comedy shows till he discovered utube. Most of his vids are worth a look. Pleased you found it interesting.


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