# US Market - Options & Futures - Catch Ups/Meetings [Sydney]



## hhse (1 January 2015)

Hi,

Anyone else living in Sydney that is interested in this space that would like to learn/share/teach others or even discuss trade ideas?

Some investment courses charge thousands of dollars just for explaining what a put option is and a covered call is, with disregard to current environment and selection process behind it - I'm tired of seeing people suckered in. I'm no where near a professional myself, but I truly do feel that I've learned so much in the options space in the last year just by putting on trades and am happy to teach basics, but also would like to learn off others. I currently do not trade futures, but am interested in this space.

Is there anyone else here that is keen on catch ups where we discuss these areas? Just checking for interests.
At the moment, I hardly know anyone interested in this space and therefore, can't have constructive conversations.

Just gauging for interests.


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## dead trader (1 January 2015)

Hey there hhse,

I would be extremely interested in such a meet up!

I live in Sydney (well not in the heart of the CBD, but can travel anywhere reasonable within Sydney and the suburbs.

In fact I used to be a part of the ATAA but felt a bit out of place as I'm aged between 25-30 and most people there were at least 10-15 years older than myself. I reckon we should have the meetings in an accessible place with air con - perhaps a meeting room within a local library or something. The room hire should be a lot cheaper than hotels and clubs.

I don't currently trade the US options markets and haven't really ever to be honest (unless you count two-off speculative trades, but maybe we can also extend this meet up group to include people from all sections of the forums, particularly the guys in "The transition to futures trading" thread. They certainly seem to know what they are talking about.

I use technical analysis as my main form of analysis. I currently trade CFDs with TradeDirect 365 and Axitrader - mainly the indices and occasionally I'll also put one on for WTI or forex. I am also looking to add share CFDs to my trading toolkit in the near future.


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## DeepState (5 January 2015)

I have interest is participating in some form of cooperative which is focused on making money from non-directional strategies. Shall contact you via PM. Just wanted to note my interest via your thread first.


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## tech/a (5 January 2015)

With around 10-20% return the best you can expect ( on average----quick google of returns on non directional
Strategies) $15000/$100,000 invested in a co operative of people you don't know.

To me seems a hell of a lot of trouble for stuff all return.
By the time you take out the time you take for meetings
Costs to set up your trading group to protect yourself

Get a similar result with an EFT.


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## DeepState (5 January 2015)

tech/a said:


> With around 10-20% return the best you can expect ( on average----quick google of returns on non directional
> Strategies) $15000/$100,000 invested in a co operative of people you don't know.
> 
> To me seems a hell of a lot of trouble for stuff all return.
> ...




I am sure you have many important calls on your time that are more productive than mine.  
However:

1.	I am curious as to how you developed an assumption of a $100k base? 
2.	What value should I place on an hourly meeting each, say, week?  What value should I use to offset this with the horsepower and sheer grunt brought to the table by others?  What of the value that can be brought by others questioning my own assumptions when they are clearly skilled enough to do so profitably?  What is the value I should assign to training (or being trained by) those so inclined, by motivation and ability, to do this stuff at something approximating professional levels over time and building an efficient team suitable for purpose?  People of this calibre absolutely exist on this forum.  Good teams stay together because they find mutual benefit…and because they like each other.  I am hopeful of one or two more eager/skilled participants to join HHSE’s merry band of three.  Then, if our interests and objectives are even aligned, we’ll see what happens.  If the mix is right, I think this will be worth investing time in to. After all, many investment conversations in ASF are present to share thoughts and receive debate.  It appears options are rather rarer birds in this regard and effort is required to develop such exchange.
3.	Do you imagine that the information and effort used to trade non-directionally is somehow different to the data you look at to trade directionally?  Is it not possible to look at a piece of data and see no potential for a directional play and yet find potential for the non-directional play, for example?  Thus, is it truly more costly to enter the non-directional field or is it actually extracting more productivity from existing efforts anyway?  Two birds with one stone?
4.	What costs are there to setting up a trading group in order to protect myself?  I am not sure what you envisage here.
5.	I have 6 ETFs in my stable of investments and also a bunch of index and other futures (which are essentially another form of ETF).  These form part of a broader arrangement which I would not exactly describe as index oriented.  Together they cover markets all around the world from developed to emerging, from bonds to equities to commodities.  None of them has an expectation that approaches 15% per annum, considering the equity risk premium is presently 4-6% per annum for major developed markets.  That leaves them rather short of a 15% expected return target.  What are you seeing?  Further, whatever it is that you are seeing, will it be diversifying to a bulk equity risk premium risk exposure?


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## tech/a (5 January 2015)

> 1.	I am curious as to how you developed an assumption of a $100k base?




Just a number plucked out of the air.




> 2.	What value should I place on an hourly meeting each, say, week? What value should I use to offset this with the horsepower and sheer grunt brought to the table by others? What of the value that can be brought by others questioning my own assumptions when they are clearly skilled enough to do so profitably? What is the value I should assign to training (or being trained by) those so inclined, by motivation and ability, to do this stuff at something approximating professional levels over time and building an efficient team suitable for purpose? People of this calibre absolutely exist on this forum. Good teams stay together because they find mutual benefit…and because they like each other. I am hopeful of one or two more eager/skilled participants to join HHSE’s merry band of three. Then, if our interests and objectives are even aligned, we’ll see what happens. If the mix is right, I think this will be worth investing time in to. After all, many investment conversations in ASF are present to share thoughts and receive debate. It appears options are rather rarer birds in this regard and effort is required to develop such exchange.




If this is the aim then I'm sure there are those who have plenty to offer and those who wish to be involved in that which is being offered. The return is not the sole or even main aim of the group.



> 3.Do you imagine that the information and effort used to trade non-directionally is somehow different to the data you look at to trade directionally? Is it not possible to look at a piece of data and see no potential for a directional play and yet find potential for the non-directional play, for example? Thus, is it truly more costly to enter the non-directional field or is it actually extracting more productivity from existing efforts anyway? Two birds with one stone?




Absolutely



> 4.What costs are there to setting up a trading group in order to protect myself? I am not sure what you envisage here.




Personally I have a rule.
If I cant control it I wont become involved.
but if you must have partners then i suggest you cover all areas where things could become muddied---like losses---who decides to do what--someone wants out.---The list goes on



> 5.I have 6 ETFs in my stable of investments and also a bunch of index and other futures (which are essentially another form of ETF). These form part of a broader arrangement which I would not exactly describe as index oriented. Together they cover markets all around the world from developed to emerging, from bonds to equities to commodities. None of them has an expectation that approaches 15% per annum, considering the equity risk premium is presently 4-6% per annum for major developed markets. That leaves them rather short of a 15% expected return target. What are you seeing?




What am I seeing

Time in exchange for return---nothing more.
I adhere where I Can to the Pareto Principal.
I see this as fitting outside of the principal.



> Further, whatever it is that you are seeing, will it be diversifying to a bulk equity risk premium risk exposure?




Yes ---well to me at least---but perhaps a little differently than you allude to here.
I have developed 4 areas of key income production

(1) Business---personal remuneration and Company profit distributed to super and trusts.
(2) Property development both as an individual and shortly within SMSF.
(3) Investments Both within SMSF and personal
(4) Trading--more as an interest than accumulation of Funds---I doubt I could ever out perform the other 3 in return by---simply trading---considering funds deployed.


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## CanOz (5 January 2015)

Obviously I can't attend meetings in person, but if I can help in any way on the learning futures side I would be very happy. Perhaps we could involve those of us in other places via WebEx?

RY, I would be really interested in learning and listening to a former investment professional such as yourself. 

CanOz


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## CanOz (6 January 2015)

For those interested in learning about options, there is a great podcast series on Apples podcast network from the Options Industry Council (OIC). It's free and very informative for beginners. I'm no math genius, so I need to get these concepts driven into my head by study and repetition, this podcast series works well alongside the books I have. I can listen to the podcast in the car on the way to and from work, as well as watch the video version when I have time.

Interactive Broker paper trading TWS will come in handy when I start to practice the strategies.

CanOz


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## boliu (18 January 2015)

I am interesting to meet in Sydney. I traded US option.


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