# Depression



## BradK (19 June 2010)

Hi 

About 6 weeks ago, I began to experience a deep sadness, unwelcome and uninvited. I have had the odd time of sadness before, and always managed to shake it off by getting into work, going for a run or other exercise or talking myself out of it. 

Eventually, this sadness would turn on me in cruel ways and the chatter in my head turned from an unwelcome guest into, well to use a metaphor, a violent home invasion. My wife began to become very concerned as my moods turned darker and I lost all motivation. In turn, my lack of motivation turned into a debilitating failure to even function normal everyday tasks. After a week, I could not get out of bed to go to work. I would wake up at midnight and cry non-stop until 4am, sobbing like a little baby - as Forrest Gump says, 'for no particular reason'. 

On one occasion, my wife frantically rang a friend who came over at 2am and climbed into bed with me. He had just got out of the army reserve basic training and talked me out of the spiralling grief in military metaphors. It will go down as one of the more comical moments in this difficult time. 

I went to work one morning, my mind froze up and I had a mental breakdown and was sent home for two weeks. 

A few things about depression - this chooses you - you don't choose it. I have a lot more compassion for people who experience this sickness now. I confess I did not understand it and thought that people who suffered it needed to get a bit more mental or emotional resolve. I know now that this is a sickness. It is debilitating. After a few weeks on the medication, I have began to stabilise. With the love and support of my wife and daughter, I have tackled this - with medication, exercise, meditation, psychologists and a great GP. 

Without the love and support of family and friends - I am blessed with many many loving friends - , it is a very short step to the street methinks. I see jabbering people with mental illness on the street these days and wonder where their loved ones are. Where are their friends? 

Has anyone else experienced depression? I am still in the middle of the fight ... so I hope I don't bum anyone out ... but the cloud is slowly lifting. 

Brad


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## Whiskers (19 June 2010)

BradK said:


> Has anyone else experienced depression? I am still in the middle of the fight ... so I hope I don't bum anyone out ... but the cloud is slowly lifting.
> 
> Brad




Hi Brad, yes the cloud will slowly lift, but it will be a life long battle to stay out of the dark side... but since you have good support from the most important people, you will learn to recognise the signs and take proactive action to stay well in the future. 

I was diagnosed many years ago too and it seems my depression came from Fibromyalgia or more commonly called Chronic Fatigue.

Once you learn how to manage it you can still achieve what you want. Take Layne Beachley for example, seven time world surfing champion.

If I can pass on one single piece of advice it would be to slow right down ( but not cut yourself off) for awhile, until you find your measure, ie how much of different things and or enviornments you can take, and re-focus your life.


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## RamonR (19 June 2010)

Good to hear that things are turning around.

Just want to add that exercise and placebo ( hope ) is as effective as antidepressants, so a good walk or run daily is vital.

Also I would learn about the serotonin and how the body makes it from food.


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## Julia (19 June 2010)

Hello Brad,

Brave post.  Thank you for your graphic description of what happened which is one of the best I've read.

Glad to hear you're feeling on the up, and that you have such great support.
As you say, it must be so incredibly difficult for people without friends or family.



RamonR said:


> Good to hear that things are turning around.
> 
> Just want to add that exercise and placebo ( hope ) is as effective as antidepressants, so a good walk or run daily is vital.
> 
> Also I would learn about the serotonin and how the body makes it from food.



Ramon, whilst exercise has indeed been shown to be helpful in mild depression, I'm sure you wouldn't be meaning to suggest that there's no place for anti depressant medication.  From what Brad describes, it sounds as though he was in no state to pull on his trainers and go for a hard run, or even a walk.  That level of depression is completely immobilising.

I often think the medical profession are too quick to prescribe anti-depressants for what is often just ordinary sadness or low mood.
But the sort of incapacity Brad has experienced is a whole other story.

Best wishes, Brad.


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## Timmy (20 June 2010)

Hey Brad - good luck with it, get well soon mate.


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## So_Cynical (20 June 2010)

Very brave post Brad...good to see your stepping up and dealing with your issues in a honest and positive way.

Personally i have suffered a little from depression, however my depression was reality based so easier to deal with.

Keep on stepping up Brad.


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## kgee (20 June 2010)

So_Cynical said:


> Personally i have suffered a little from depression, however my depression was reality based so easier to deal with.




Reality based ? So I presume what your saying is your behaviour was appropriate to the situation you were in?
I ask because as a laymen I thought "approppriate behaviour" was one diagnosis for "madness" or mental disease??? (which poses a lot of questions in itself - I'ts a little off subject but i have a quirky curiosity to the idea of Appropriate behaviour)



Julia said:


> Hello Brad,
> 
> I often think the medical profession are too quick to prescribe anti-depressants for what is often just ordinary sadness or low mood.




Again as a laymen Depression like most disorders come in varying degrees and diagnosis is difficult I'm sure this has being disscussed on another thread,
ie theres several stages of commiting suicide 
1. you think about it 
2. you plan for it,
3. implementation you organise buy the equipment neccessary?
So for a doctor where do you step in?
its better to be safe than sorry (although they should probably take more care in handing out the drugs to children)

And Brad theres heaps of literature out there ...I have sufferred depression and yep its one of those things that you must be ever vigilant about, its difficult to keep a lid on at times but it can be managed I would almost suggest that you'll be richer for it because it certainly does give some perspective to things
anyway goodluck


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## So_Cynical (20 June 2010)

kgee said:


> Reality based ? So I presume what your saying is your behaviour was appropriate to the situation you were in?
> I ask because as a laymen I thought "approppriate behaviour" was one diagnosis for "madness" or mental disease??? (which poses a lot of questions in itself - I'ts a little off subject but i have a quirky curiosity to the idea of Appropriate behaviour)




I was in a bad marriage/relationship and having to deal with some one i loved being destructive and reckless...i exited that relationship and almost instantly my depression was lifted, i was sad and had to deal with the loss, but was no longer depressed.

I personally discovered that being depressed and being sad was 2 different things...thus i assumed that my depression was reality based and not 'for no particular reason' ... i sobbed uncontrollably too, but realised that i was doing that because i was genuinely sad and missing my 1 great love and dealing with my loss etc.

Over time i stopped sobbing etc and found i was happy being alone...and after a year or so actually resumed contact with my ex wife, faced my feelings and dealt with my issues with her....and this week im moving in with my new girlfriend.


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## Wysiwyg (20 June 2010)

I had a monumental shift in thinking at one stage in my 20's where I immersed myself in self help books, tapes and Personal Development classes. Looking at my bookshelf now with the likes of Bradshaw, Hay, Peale, Freud, Jung, Gawain, Jeffers, Dyer, Gilbert, Peck and Hayward I must have been ill to some degree. I dropped off most friends and acquaintances and cut television and newspapers to a very low intake. I began to look within.

I was then able to work with my own thoughts for a better understanding of what exactly was going on. What exactly were the 'triggers' people used to upset and control me. Why I felt guilty (or was made to feel so) for insignificant past events, no, very insignificant past events. You know, I really thought I was a bad person. I really thought I was meant to suffer for other people.

My father has the mentality of a block of concrete. Caring but not much phases him, no one messes with him and he is always right. While my mother is emotionally sensitive, fearful of doing many activities, yet very loving of her sons. So this arrangement was/is the fight and flight scenarios that I used to manifest unknowingly and more so to the fight side. It is the fight side that has pulled me through every state of depression and life difficulty. 

Depression is like the trough of emotional/mental states. On the downward slope there is nothing I did that pulled me up out of it so I let the spectre consume me completely. I ate less because I wasn't hungry, went outside only at night, looking at my image in the mirror reflected ugly and I felt physically very weak.  I slept, read, slept, read, and evetually came to a turning point. Now I realise I was looking for a sentence or paragraph that would break the shackles. Some readings really struck a chord and I would contemplate until sleep the wisdom of people who had walked the path.

The practical advice to recovery was diet and exercise orientated and I can tell that this path worked a treat after I had bottomed out. The worst experience of depression was a culmination of being targeted, accused and victimised. This still happens nowadays to a lesser degree but I don't feel as overwhelmed by numbers since moving town and closer to family. Oh and along the way I had to give one tormentor a smack in the gob for his abusive attack. It's what men have to do sometimes. Some people derive pleasure from causing sufferance. Be strong.


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## noirua (20 June 2010)

If a person goes around depressed I find I get depressed as well. It seems to be very stressful being in the company of a depressed person.

Over the years I've worked with people suffering from quite bad depression and one comment said very often is something like this, "Oh god, look who's coming, I'm off".

What can you do for the best??????????????????
[I didn't mean to upset anyone, only to say how it often can be]


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## RamonR (20 June 2010)

> Ramon, whilst exercise has indeed been shown to be helpful in mild depression, I'm sure you wouldn't be meaning to suggest that there's no place for anti depressant medication.




Unbiased studies have shown that modern medications are no more effective then placebo.
So exercise and placebo is actually much more effective then medication.

I would advise people one way or another regards taking medication but I do know that taking SSRI's is fraught with difficulties.


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## explod (20 June 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> I had a monumental shift in thinking at one stage in my 20's where I immersed myself in self help books, tapes and Personal Development classes. Looking at my bookshelf now with the likes of Bradshaw, Hay, Peale, Freud, Jung, Gawain, Jeffers, Dyer, Gilbert, Peck and Hayward I must have been ill to some degree. I dropped off most friends and acquaintances and cut television and newspapers to a very low intake. I began to look within.
> 
> I was then able to work with my own thoughts for a better understanding of what exactly was going on. What exactly were the 'triggers' people used to upset and control me. Why I felt guilty (or was made to feel so) for insignificant past events, no, very insignificant past events. You know, I really thought I was a bad person. I really thought I was meant to suffer for other people.
> 
> ...




A good post and thread, many of us if honest can relate to a lot of this. 

Like you Wysiwyg, problem with Dad etc., etc.,   unfortunately our wisdom comes later in life, though I too had done the books and the uni study in midlife to try and free myself.   Taking full responsibility for yourself is the key.  No longer do I blame anyone and look squarely at my faults, *THEY ARE my faults and only I can delete them./B]    

No one can throw all the shackles perhaps, but being truly honest with the self is the way in my view, then the good in you can grow.

and all the best to you bradk and thanks for sharing

explod*


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## Muschu (20 June 2010)

Good on you Brad.  You have overcome one of the toughest hurdles -- opening up about how you feel.

There are excellent therapies, techniques and medications which, offered by skilled professionals, have assisted many people to recover from depression.

Just being able to talk about how you feel on ASF, but better still with trusted people in your personal life, is a great start - and one best taken early.

Well done.

With very best wishes

Rick


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## BradK (20 June 2010)

RamonR said:


> Unbiased studies have shown that modern medications are no more effective then placebo.
> So exercise and placebo is actually much more effective then medication.
> 
> I would advise people one way or another regards taking medication but I do know that taking SSRI's is fraught with difficulties.




Hi Ramon, 

Seven weeks ago, I would have said exactly the same thing. Exercise, placebo, etc. Medication helped get me to a place where I could function again. We are not talking about a low mood here. 

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Brad


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## BradK (20 June 2010)

Many thanks for all the supportive posts. I knew that this would open up a discussion about medication versus non-medication. The first three weeks of this sickness, I was resisting medication with everything. Gym, eating, fresh air... I was into it all. 

By week three, in a lucid moment and with the encouragement of a friend, I was begging for the medication. I thought it would take away the sadness and depression, but it actually slowed down the 1000 miles an hour chatter in my head to a grinding crawl. For that, I am thankful. Perhaps, you will say, I am doped out. 

But, the meds gave me a grounding where I could get up again. It is difficult to overexaggerate the fear you have of not being able to trust your thoughts. Not sure about studies, but for me, this just got me back to square one. It is now up to me to do the cognitive, spiritual, physical work - in the midst of a long slow down and rest - to battle this. By no means do I want to depend on the medication - but I will use it as part of a multi-pronged approach to achieve some level of normality. 

Without meds, it just simply takes longer. For those who have experienced something like the viciousness which this represents, again, it is not an overexaggeration to say that you are in the fight of your life. 

As I said to a friend - you could put 6 salivating rottweilers in front of me, smear my balls with Pal's meaty bites, and I don't think I would have been as scared as I was at the depths of this. 

Brad


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## Sean K (20 June 2010)

Each to their own I think. Counselling for some, medication for others. Three years of counselling did nothing for me. One month of meds I was reborn.


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## MRC & Co (20 June 2010)

Whiskers said:


> Hi Brad, yes the cloud will slowly lift, but it will be a life long battle to stay out of the dark side... but since you have good support from the most important people, you will learn to recognise the signs and take proactive action to stay well in the future.
> 
> I was diagnosed many years ago too and it seems my depression came from Fibromyalgia or more commonly called Chronic Fatigue.
> 
> ...




Good post Whiskers.


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## trainspotter (20 June 2010)

GOSH BradK ! Stay safe man and don't let the darkside eat away at your psyche. Thankfully the black dog has never crossed my path. Have had many times when it felt that a LOT of things were not going my way in business, family, social etc circles and lurching from one crisis to another. Slowly but surely by deleting small things that were sappping time/money/capacity the knock on effect subsided. My medication consisted of good friends and good times. Not suggesting for one moment what I went through is anything compared to your situation. Stay safe man.


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## robots (20 June 2010)

hello,

take it easy bro

i use music all day every day with planet earth as an ever changing backdrop, 

my favorite are the honeyeaters as they call out in the trees and retrieve the nectar from the lush beautiful flowers of our native species

thankyou
robots


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## Gunlom (20 June 2010)

BradK,

Keeping fighting it and talking about, hopefully you can help yourself and others by bringing it out into the open.

It's a tough illness, on the entire family as well as the sufferer, my mother-in law just couldn't fight on any more, after years of fighting it, she took her own life last month. Any discussion on this subject is good as it brings it into the open, and away from being taboo.

Just talking to different people lately about it, more people have been touched by it than I ever thought.....

Thanks for being able to discuss it.


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## Julia (20 June 2010)

This might sound incongruous, and Brad, I don't mean to divert the thread, but I'm feeling really encouraged by the posts from ASF members in response to your affecting description of your battle with depression.

There's a lot of empathy and support which is clearly genuine.

Just brings a balance to the sense that ASF sometimes seems like a battleground of egoistic one-upmanship.

All the best, Brad.


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## waza1960 (20 June 2010)

Good onya Brad for talking about it and fighting on I have fought the dark side many times in my life maybe just short of depression but scary none the less.
   IMO medication is essential for  depression other measures are just not sufficient.
   Hang in there


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## xyzedarteerf (20 June 2010)

BradK said:


> Has anyone else experienced depression? I am still in the middle of the fight ... so I hope I don't bum anyone out ... but the cloud is slowly lifting.
> 
> Brad




I hear you Brad this happened to me last year after a short illness and a bad reaction from a medication. For the first few weeks I felt and incredible urge to just cry for no reason, I started ringing friends and family and start talking to them about no particular subject for some reason I had a need to talk to someone. I would start questioning certain things purpose and say to myself whats the point of it all.
Depression I think affects us in different ways and can have different symptoms but for myself I knew what caused it which helped a lot knowing that. It took me about 7 months to shake this feeling that I know was not me with no drugs just sheer determination and believing in myself that this will just pass, I found talking to loved ones really helpful watching a few episodes of 2 and half men also helped me laugh again. Also just getting out of the house and just walking in shops seeing people helped as well,also going back to work gives you a sense of purpose for the day.

Trust me all this bad feelings will soon fade away, you need to tell that to yourself that all this will just pass its a slow process but you will get there.

Stay strong and Keep us posted dude..


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## Logique (21 June 2010)

Hey Brad. 
It was successfully dealt with by Winston Churchill (his 'black dog') and a host of luminaries throughout history, so you're in good company. 
I'm no medico, so no amateur medical advice from me. I have heard it said that certain foods are good, such as legumes, rice, green veg, nuts, bananas, rice and fish. And watch the food additives and allergies. And some exercise every day is a great idea.
And don't copy Winston's remedy, go easy on the cigars and whisky


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## sails (21 June 2010)

So sorry to read your story, Brad.  Depression is not something I would wish on anyone. Probably like many people, I knew very little about it until a few years ago when my daughter was diagnosed.  Looking back, her depression was probably there even as a child, but unfortunately, it went unrecognised.  So there were a lot of untreated years that have caused much damage.

When it comes to the debate on medication, I agree with others here that it is a good thing when it is a clear clinical depression as you describe as opposed to a sad/angry time due to unfavourable circumstances. 

As an example, I become quite despaired and exhausted with the amount of support I need to give to my daughter and her two children.  There is very little help apart from myself, so the load becomes quite heavy and unrelenting.  I have resisted medication as I don't believe I have a clinical depression.  On the occasions that I get a few days break, I quickly rejuvenate again which confirms my belief that, in my case, medication is probably not necessary.  Beta blockers have been helpful at times to help prevent damage from too much adrenaline.

While exercise is a good thing for depression, certain types of depression can remove any motivation for even small things, let alone exercise.  

Brad, I think it is wonderful that you have shared your story.  We are quite open about my daughter's depression and have found so many other people then open up that they are in a similar situation.  In fact, in our last unit, both our direct neighbours had adult children with severe depression - and they weren't talking about it.  It wasn't until we talked openly that they opened up and then we were all a support to each other.

I sincerely wish you all the best with your recovery.  You may find it has its ups and downs.  I see it as similar to an uptrend in the market - there may well be some temporary pull backs, but focus on the overall uptrend...


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## BradK (21 June 2010)

sails said:


> So sorry to read your story, Brad.  Depression is not something I would wish on anyone. Probably like many people, I knew very little about it until a few years ago when my daughter was diagnosed.  Looking back, her depression was probably there even as a child, but unfortunately, it went unrecognised.  So there were a lot of untreated years that have caused much damage.
> 
> As an example, I become quite despaired and exhausted with the amount of support I need to give to my daughter and her two children.  There is very little help apart from myself, so the load becomes quite heavy and unrelenting.




Sails, 

Must be heart breaking to see your own daughter going through this. If there is one person I have kept shielded from all of this, it is my own mother. Not because I would not appreciate her love and care, but she is a natural worrier and will not cope with this - especially seeing I have had so much time off work. 

Sorry to hear that the bulk of the responsibility has, at times, fallen onto your shoulders. I wonder if you can enlist some supportive friends to help out? I am very conscious that the bulk of house chores, cooking, looking after 4 year old missy has fallen to my wife. I need to be careful not to burn her out. So, when friends say, 'Is there anything I can do?' - we have people come over and cook, wash up and vaccuum. Hey, they asked! And I think they feel they are contributing. 

Again, I am very blessed to have about 6 close couple friends who would take a bullet for us. It is very rare. 

On a good note, I actually returned to work today after 3 weeks absence. I was nice to hear the students say that they missed me and were all over me when I returned. Not sure if I will last the week, but I have a great boss who has said to take it sloooowwwlllyyyy. 

Today was the first full day of actually feeling normal and getting on top of things. I know that I have to work hard against the return of the depression, and I know that there will be set backs. For example, on Saturday, I spent the day crying in bed after spending a couple of days feeling like I was rather on the mend. 

Again, thanks for all the supportive posts. Sharing my story is important to me. I have been doing some Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and it has taught me alot about myself, my reactions and behaviours. 

Cheers
Brad


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## IFocus (21 June 2010)

Courageous thread and posts Brad being open must have been hard but many here at ASF who wont be posting will be so glad you did. 


Good luck and wishing you a speedy recovery.


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## gav (22 June 2010)

I remember Mental Health activists were outraged when the governments new health plan came out, as Mental Health was pretty much ignored.  Below is an email my girlfriend forwarded to me.  It was sent to subscribers of the GetUp website, by Prof John Mendoza (head advisor to Rudd govt on mental health)

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"I lost my beautiful youngest daughter to suicide 3 years ago... She was not referred on to an appropriate service after suffering post-natal depression... She had 3 children whom she adored, and she had so much to live for. She said to me not long before she died, 'Mum, I wish I had cancer, then people would be more understanding and caring'. We need improved and increased specialised services NOW." --Mary, a GetUp member who shared her story.

No parent should have to experience this. Please sign this petition today before it's delivered to Parliament House on Thursday: http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/MentalHealth

--- A message to you from Prof John Mendoza ---

Dear Bernadette,

On Friday I resigned my position as the head advisor to the Rudd Government on mental health. And it's because of stories like Mary's and my frustration over the Government's failure to do more to prevent them.

So, today I'm taking the unusual step of writing to you through GetUp to ask you to sign this petition, because I've come to the regrettable conclusion that my advice was not getting through - only public pressure will spur politicians into action.

Every day 330 Australians with serious mental illnesses are turned away from Emergency Departments, and 1,200 Australians are refused admission to a public or private psychiatric unit.

Every day more than 7 people die as a result of suicide, and more than a third of those have been discharged too early or without care from hospitals. For each of those 7 Australians, there are 7 families who mourn them, 7 groups of friends who ask themselves, 'why?'

And every day our political leaders fail to take action, this crisis worsens. This petition will be presented at Parliament House on Thursday - please add your name now through the GetUp website below:

www.getup.org.au/campaign/MentalHealth

On Thursday, I and over 60 mental health organisations from across Australia intend to present a letter to Kevin Rudd with a plan of action for mental health. But so far, the Prime Minister has declined to receive it, and so too has the Health Minister, Nicola Roxon.

If 60,000 Australians get behind those 60 organisations by signing this petition, perhaps the Government will stand up and take notice. Please join us by adding your name through the GetUp website below:

www.getup.org.au/campaign/MentalHealth

There are programs on the ground right now, proven to be effective - but we need real leadership and new investment to roll them out nationally. The Headspace youth mental health centres and psychosis intervention services pioneered by Professor McGorry are excellent and can reach hundreds of thousands of young Australians, if we make an additional investment of $250 million a year. The lack of spending right now means that tens of thousands of young Australians have no access to care.

We also need to expand programs for child mental health, so that the parents of every child with a learning or developmental disorder can access effective services. We must also provide more support for the 63,000 homeless Australians suffering from mental illness, and invest in e-health services that can reach hundreds of thousands of sufferers cost effectively.

Lastly, we owe it to our children, and their peers, to implement a national suicide prevention service. Suicide is the number 1 cause of death for men 16-44 and women 16-34 years. But across Australia, life-saving suicide prevention services are starved for funds. $100 million would expand these crucial services and concentrate on suicide hot spots like 'The Gap' in Sydney, where just last week the Federal and NSW Governments passed up on the opportunity to fund an effective suicide prevention project.

www.getup.org.au/campaign/MentalHealth

For too long, successive Governments have failed to take mental health seriously. It's now the leading cause of disability for all Australians and the leading killer of those under 44. On Friday, the Prime Minister restated his commitment "to do more on mental health" and that the next cab off the rank was mental health." They've been saying that for six months, but if they're serious, these sensible investments can start saving lives and alleviate suffering today.

The concerted efforts of mental health campaigners, including GetUp members, have been effective in securing small pledges from the Government this year - but we need an investment of at least $500 million to start turning this health crisis around. It's within our grasp. A poll commissioned by GetUp this weekend found that 83% of Australians would be in favour of investing $500 million in mental health immediately.

The policies are there, the public support is there and million of Australians are waiting for help - now we need the public political pressure to make it happen. Please join the call by adding your name at: http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/MentalHealth

Thanks,
Prof. John Mendoza

*Mary is a GetUp member who shared her family's story with other GetUp members when we launched the mental health campaign. Her name has been changed in respect for her privacy.


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## gav (22 June 2010)

An ABC interview with Prof John Mendoza:

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s2932959.htm


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## Duckman#72 (22 June 2010)

IFocus said:


> Courageous thread and posts Brad being open must have been hard but many here at ASF who wont be posting will be so glad you did.
> 
> 
> Good luck and wishing you a speedy recovery.




Such a debilitating illness. I've experienced it in my family unit and also with work colleagues. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. 

One of my business partners failed at an attempted suicide brought on by spiralling depression. Anyway - a short hospital stint, regular counselling, medication and time has meant a brand new person. He also has learnt the "warning signs" and what he needs to do to better control it.

From the depths of despair, your life can rise to great heights.

All the best 

Duckman


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## trainspotter (22 June 2010)

KEVIN Rudd's top mental health adviser has resigned in frustration, accusing the Prime Minister and his government of failing the mentally ill with their ''abundantly clear'' lack of vision and commitment to a problem that affects millions of Australians.

The chairman of the National Advisory Council on Mental Health, John Mendoza, tendered his resignation on Friday, citing *yet another Rudd government policy failure* among his reasons. 

http://www.theage.com.au/national/mental-health-chief-resigns-20100619-yo25.html

Hmmmmmmm ... stay safe BradK


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## Julia (22 June 2010)

Good for Prof Mendoza for taking his message to the government via the media.  It's about the only avenue left for frustrated mental health professionals.

Rudd's empty promises in this regard are obviously regarded with the disdain they deserve.   Like the very old who are in such great need of better care, people with a mental illness often don't have the energy to vote, so hey, let's spend those dollars on buying the votes of the people who do vote.


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## Gunslinger (23 June 2010)

BradK,
Thank you for sharing your story, by your forthrightness you might encourage others to hopefully share their load (and I hope we can help share yours).
I've often wondered how much damage we're doing to ourselves and our children in our mad rush to better ourselves.
I wouldnt say I've suffered from depression but I do know that I've had times when I've felt under so much pressure to do well, get the job done and all the 100 others that I've got on my plate at any one time that I feel like everything is breaking down and out of control.
The ironic thing about that is that in these situations I normally get less done than ever before since I'm effectively paralysed by the sheer volume and choice of what to get done.
It is of course all brought on by myself so I cannot complain but I do look at it at times and wonder to what end.
Good luck my friend and may your times improve.

Thanks gav for the GetUp link, I've signed it and faxed my local MP(apparently).

JB


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## BradK (24 June 2010)

Hi, 

The last few days haven't been great, but a small victory is that I saw the signs and responded to them. 

Having been on medication for over three weeks now, I think they are starting to take effect. I went to work yesterday morning and went, 'ohh' something is not right here. I knew that a big drop was coming and the mental image I got was the ground opening up in front of me. It was astonishing how fast it happened without any real cause. 

I had a CHOICE. Step into it or calmly walk away in the opposite direction. Thankfully, the medication has stopped my mind going into over drive - actually it has just STOPPED my mind! -  so I was unable to play through any negative scenarios. 

Without the medication, I have no doubt that a week, two, three weeks ago, I would have stepped into it without any real way out. 

By recess, I felt like it was going to swallow me up - so I put into practice what I have been working on with the psychologist. I calmly went to my office and did some breathing. I then calmly went to the Deputy Principal and told him that I would be leaving for the day. Following this, I went for a long stroll along the beach before a light work out at the gym. 

I did not try to work it out too much. I simply walked away. Today, I am resting and will be back at work tomorrow. 

Brad


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## robots (26 June 2010)

hello,

Hows it going man

Thankyou
Professor robots


----------



## BradK (26 June 2010)

robots said:


> hello,
> 
> Hows it going man
> 
> ...




Doing well thanks Robots. 

I have thrown everything I possibly can at this - once the medication allowed me to get up - and want to stage a full recovery. I know it will take time and rest, but I want to be able to say that 'I USED to have depression' rather than still have it or have it dormant. 

I asked the psychologist yesterday if I would always have depression. Or if, like a broken bone, you have an episode of it and it doesn't return. He thinks that if you can spot the signs super early, I will be right. 

I am much more aware of my emotions now than I was two months ago. I also know that I have a choice. Step in to the darkness, or walk calmly away in the other direction as if you were walking away from a vicious dog. Have managed to do that twice in the last week. I have put a little sign on my desk - Step In?... Walk Away! 

Look at the end of the day, this has scared the **** out of me like no other experience. I don't trust my own thoughts, and I am just doing everything the doctors and psychologists tell me to do. As I said, I am throwing everything at it, although I do have the odd period of deep despair. But they are getting further and further apart now. The psychologist says I am the quickest learner he ever had. I put that down to being scared rather than determined!

Such a steep learning curve. 

Brad


----------



## Buckfont (26 June 2010)

Hi there Brad K. 
I have a 29 yo son who lives with me that has what they call pro dromal psychosis. Early schizophrenia. He is on medication that keeps him on a level keel. His communication abilities are difficult for him.

He sees both a psychologist and a psychiatrist on a monthly basis.

Out of the blue he decided to seek out an alternative way of approaching his difficulties and did a small course in alternative healing called Reki. It`s only over a weekend but today he came back home obviously refreshed.

There are a multitude of cynics out there that poo poo all sorts of options as to how we heal ourselves, however there is also a spiritual component to all our beings that we have to acknowledge within ourselves.

Starting in the alternative healings for my son was a good step and there are many.

My son had very bad vibes in his workplace. He didn`t take drugs and is a very caring, feeling person that actually found himself in an environment that was totally counterproductive to his work place.

There are many people out in the world that have spiritual knowledge. 

It`s better to find that than persue that that makes you ill.

All the best Brad, in all kindness


----------



## RamonR (27 June 2010)

Hi Buckfont.

I work with the criminally insane for about 25 years and consequently it could be argued that I see the worst cases.

But from my experience medication is absolutely critical.

I have seen many nice people who have killed family members due to paranoia associated with their schizophrenia.

Due to their side effects many people with schizophrenia  avoid taking medication at the start but over the years learn that side effects of medication are better then symptoms of schizophrenia.

I am not saying that people with schizophrenia will ultimately kill somebody but often the paranoia tends to focus on the people closest to them.


----------



## Buckfont (27 June 2010)

RamonR said:


> Hi Buckfont.
> 
> I work with the criminally insane for about 25 years and consequently it could be argued that I see the worst cases.
> 
> ...




Thanx for your insight RamonR.

That must have been a very confronting period in your life and I`m sure I would not have the emotional capacity to deal with that on such a large scale.

Not for a second would ever condone skipping medication, rather that the conditions as in my son`s case and possibly many others may be aided in their recouperation with the help of relaxation techniques and the like.

I have seen both sides of his illness, the state of fear and his present condition, which I know to be quite grounded, and under control, despite the fact his energy levels are quite low and he sleeps alot. There is slow improvement which for a father is very encouraging. BF


----------



## prozac (27 June 2010)

Well done Brad for acknowledging you have a problem and for being able to deal with it so promptly. Acknowledging the problem is 50% of the cure.

I have been on medication (Zoloft) for 10 years. Mostly 150mg when things weren't good. About 12 months back I realised i was getting better and over the past 5 months i have been weaning myself gradually off the medication and expect to "step ashore" within a few weeks. I do not feel like getting depressed, my raging anger has gone, plus some other nasties also.

I would recommend you take any opportunity to talk with a proper psychiatrist even if you feel you are getting better. A good one (and i stress get a good one) will help steady the boat for the future. Do you find being with some people encourages you to say things you regret even as you're saying them, conversation that makes you feel bad about yourself? Remove yourself from the situation and just don't place yourself in their company. That might sound simplistic but I am trying to say remove the things around you that make you feel uncomfortable about yourself. You need to travel a smooth road, not a rocky one.

Again well done for confronting this issue and best wishes for a great result.


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## Julia (27 June 2010)

prozac said:


> Do you find being with some people encourages you to say things you regret even as you're saying them, conversation that makes you feel bad about yourself? Remove yourself from the situation and just don't place yourself in their company. That might sound simplistic but I am trying to say remove the things around you that make you feel uncomfortable about yourself. You need to travel a smooth road, not a rocky one.
> 
> .



That's a really interesting comment, prozac.   I've noticed myself that following contact with some people, my mood is affected.  Often ask myself if  it's my reaction that is unreasonable, but I think you're right.  Some people are actually quite toxic and we're better off without them.

Thanks, too, for describing your own experience.  Sounds like you're coming through it well.  All the best.


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## nunthewiser (27 June 2010)

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?


Just in case not mentioned yet , may help , may not


Thoughts are with you Brad im just not as brave as you to share my shadows of the past in public.

There is light out there and good to see you looking for  it.

take care.


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## JTLP (1 July 2010)

http://www.news.com.au/features/fed...al-health-pledge/story-fn5tar6a-1225886457823

Did anybody see this story?

Good on Tony and finally some substance for an election. I like the idea of scrapping that stupid medicare after hours thing and the GP Superclinics...what the hell!


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## Julia (1 July 2010)

JTLP said:


> http://www.news.com.au/features/fed...al-health-pledge/story-fn5tar6a-1225886457823
> 
> Did anybody see this story?
> 
> Good on Tony and finally some substance for an election. I like the idea of scrapping that stupid medicare after hours thing and the GP Superclinics...what the hell!



I'd like to ideally see both.  The 24 hours GP Superclinics would take some of the pressure off hospital emergency departments.

It's a great initiative from the Libs and one that could well be a vote changer, given the considerable focus on mental health at present, especially with 
the government's chief mental health adviser, Professor Mendoza, having just resigned in frustration over the lack of funds for mental health.

Probably an indication of how the Libs are going to seek out holes in the government's policies, and make their own offer to please that section of the electorate.


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## BradK (2 July 2010)

Hi, 

Finished work today and now off for 2 weeks of holidays to Beechworth in Victoria. 

As part of my therapy, I have been doing Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT). It is based on the premise that our thoughts determine our mood and behaviour. I am practising it as I get better. It has five points: 

a) The situation
b) Thoughts 
c) Feelings
d) Physical feelings 
e) Actions 

Working through these slowly and picking apart situations and my behaviour has been very helpful. I find it amusing (tragic?) that I was never taught these skills as a young person or an adult. These skills are empowering. 

As a school teacher, I am determined to bring this stuff into the curriculum. 

The ironic thing about this, the timing, is that in my role at the school I have been part of introducing the Mind Matters material into the curriculum to help adolescents with mental health issues. We are supposed to connect it to the curriculum. 

The other day, I was teaching Summer of the Seventeenth Doll to some year 10 students. I presented a PowerPoint presentation on Daniel Goleman's Emotional Intelligence and linked it to the text. The students LOVED it - yes, even the boys. They were able to name their own emotions, learn to manage them, learn to read the emotions in others and then use this knowledge to handle relationships. 

We then applied what they learned to some of the characters in the play - Barney, Roo and Olive, all arguably emotionally immature characters. 

Like money management, emotions have largely dropped off the face of the school curriculum and it is up to the drive of the individual teacher to squeeze it in and make it meaningful. With a bit of forethought and planning, I believe this can be done meaningfully. 

On a plus note, when I first started this thread, the dips put me down to about 10% capacity... now I think I am operating at about 85%-90% and the dips are sending me down to about 65%. Certainly feeling a lot more in control of my thoughts and thrilled to be so. 

Cheers
Brad


----------



## blackfred (2 July 2010)

Your story sounded so familiar to me that I wanted to say how depression can strike at anytime and how a lot of people still don't understand.

About 5 years ago my husband of 24years suffered from depression.  He started out not sleeping and gradually got to the stage that he could not shower, stayed in the same cloths for days and was suicidal.  He was off work for 2years and in the end someone had to be with him at all times to make sure he didn't harm himself.  He had a couple of stints in hospital and took numerous medication but in the end had to go into hospital for two months to have shock treatment.  The decision was taken out of our hands as his doctor had him committed.

It was the worst 2 years of my husband and my families lives.  I too wondered what would of happened to him if I just left as I can tell you it would of been much easier to have packed up and left than stay.

Lots of our family and friends just couln't understand why he just didn't wake up to himself and they stayed away in droves.  We were also blessed with some wonderful friends who were with us throught out this journey.

Luckily the shock treatment worked where nothing else did and we have since gotten on with our lives.   My husband would like to forget this painful time in his life but I am very aware that it could return at any time.

I hope Brad that everything works out well for you and your family.


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## BradK (2 July 2010)

blackfred said:


> Your story sounded so familiar to me that I wanted to say how depression can strike at anytime and how a lot of people still don't understand.
> 
> About 5 years ago my husband of 24years suffered from depression.  He started out not sleeping and gradually got to the stage that he could not shower, stayed in the same cloths for days and was suicidal.  He was off work for 2years and in the end someone had to be with him at all times to make sure he didn't harm himself.  He had a couple of stints in hospital and took numerous medication but in the end had to go into hospital for two months to have shock treatment.  The decision was taken out of our hands as his doctor had him committed.
> 
> ...




My goodness. Sorry to hear this. Not sure that we are too similar though. Luckily, I have never been suicidal through any of this. I have a beautiful wife and 4 year old daughter and that would simply not enter my mind to leave them alone. 

Good on your for sticking it out. I am sure it made all the difference to your husband. You sound fantastic, and I hope that the experience drew you closer rather than tore you apart. 

Brad


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## kelvin (2 July 2010)

Hi brad,

I have suffered from depression for as long as I can remember, and surprisingly, the burden has lifted in the last couple of years.

The best advice I was given over this long drawn out process was a psychologist who recommended to me to really focus on what I was doing at the time.

I know this sounds lame, but if I washed the dishes, I focussed on washing the dishes, if I had to work< I focus on working instead of focussing on my dark thoughts.  This helped me to not only learn to concentrate but to get away from the demons.

I wish you well as depression is such a horrible state to be in.  I lost alot of friends who would prefer me to be "happy" and "get on with life, and what is the problem, you are so lucky" frame of mind. That in the end I stopped talking to people, they quite clearly did not understand the state I was in.

Have hope..........you will get there and you will find out how strong you truly are.

wishing you well,

Kelvin


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## Muschu (4 July 2010)

kelvin said:


> Hi brad,
> 
> ......The best advice I was given over this long drawn out process was a psychologist who recommended to me to really focus on what I was doing at the time.....
> 
> Kelvin




This sounds like excellent advice Kelvin and is probably based on an approach called Mindfulness Therapy [MT]which can go hand in hand with CBT.  I'd be very much inclined to stay away from the boring fluffiness of Eckhart Tolle but a Google on MT will turn up some good reading on the topic.

I think it is fabulous that so many people are now talking openly about depression as others do about diabetes or many other illnesses.

Brad and yourself are to be congratulated.  It is not an easy path but there are ways out of the depths as you are finding.

Best wishes

Rick


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## BradK (14 July 2010)

Hi all, 

Just an update. I have spent the past two weeks in Beechworth with my wife and daughter. Very relaxing holiday... bumming out, seeing the sites, doing a tiny bit of work each day, and generally relaxing and abusing that lovely Beechworth Bakery! 

I have not had a low point in the full two weeks now. I think the medication must be well on the way to mending me, but also the psychological and physical work I have been doing makes me feel like a new man. 

I have truly spent the past 2 months smelling the roses, finding out what is important in life and putting myself first. 

I put it all down to *getting help early and following doctors instructions and having determination to beat this - I guess I have learned that in the powerlessness (and those who have suffered this know what I mean), you can still make some decisions which will stead you when the dips come to dump you on the your head* I am determined that this will be a one episode case - however, I also know that I need to walk slowly and calmly in the other direction if I see the black dog about to attack. 

Thanks for everyone's kind words and sharing your own stories in this thread. I am back to work next week, so I do wonder if there will be some challenges that I need to deal with slowly. 

Cheers
Brad


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## robots (14 July 2010)

hello,

good stuff BradK

thankyou
robots


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## sails (14 July 2010)

So good to hear you are working through it, Brad...

I think now you have some benefit of "hindsight" in recognising any hint of unwanted feelings and be better equipped to become proactive quite quickly.

I think it is wonderful you have shared your story and your progress on the forum.  I am sure you will help others as much as it may have helped in your own progress.

All the best and sincerely trust you keep going from strength to strength...


----------



## frankie_boy (14 July 2010)

BradK said:


> Hi Ramon,
> 
> Seven weeks ago, I would have said exactly the same thing. Exercise, placebo, etc. Medication helped get me to a place where I could function again. We are not talking about a low mood here.
> 
> ...




Mate, Hang in there. I am 4yrs on from something similar. It took me a good while to deal with losing my Grandfather who i was very close to, a breakup, and there was something else, all in a very short period. I didnt cope, hardly able to work etc etc you know the drill.

As my Doc said, the antidepressants were only there as a bandaid, gives you the ability to think with a clearer head and be able to attack the problem that is causing it. I tried exercise, ran till i was sick really, but didnt help, the brain still didnt stop revolving around the issues.

What really helped me in the end was NLP therapy. Neuro Linguistic Programing. I met this bloke through a friend and in a 4 hr session broke me out of this cloud that was stopping my sun from shining for around 2 yrs. I am not usually one for alternate stuff, am an engineer, logic works for me, not the airy fairy phycology stuff that drags into session after session to cash up their pockets.. 

I found NLP really worked for me because it made sense. It was logical. The brain has a pattern that, lets say in depression, it just goes round and round in circles.. you need to break that circular motion.. 

It was the most amazing thing to be walking in with a frown, 4 hrs later.. free.. and smiling!


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## skc (14 July 2010)

BradK said:


> Thanks for everyone's kind words and sharing your own stories in this thread. I am back to work next week, so I do wonder if there will be some challenges that I need to deal with slowly.




Great to hear things are on the mend, Brad.

With returning to work - I (from experience) found that I was worried about how people will see / judge me. But in the end I was surprised on how understanding most people are. Perhaps more people (than I realise) have been touched by it directly or indirectly, and therefore have very high level of empathy.


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## Timmy (30 August 2010)

Saw this hospital treatment article over weekend and thought would post it up.  Hope it is of interest and perhaps may be helpful to some people.  



> Doctors at The Alfred hospital say transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) has a high success rate
> 
> ... and those suffering severe depression after head injuries sustained in road accidents are also seeing results in as little as four weeks.
> ...
> Professor Fitzgerald said the therapy had become a mainstream mental health procedure in the United States with up to 250 centres offering it as a standard clinical treatment.



http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/...-arise-in-magnetic-fields-20100828-13wxy.html

and more at:
http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/wellbeing/ironing-out-the-highs-and-lows-20100828-13wy0.html

Also, link to the hospital mentioned in the article:
http://www.alfred.org.au/

And to the Monash Alfred Psychiatry Research Centre
http://www.maprc.org.au/


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## sails (30 August 2010)

Thanks so much for the heads up, Timmy.  I will let my daughter know so she ask her doctor about this new treatment.  At least it offers a little hope for a better quality of life...


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## xyzedarteerf (31 August 2010)

BradK said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have truly spent the past 2 months smelling the roses, finding out what is important in life and putting myself first.
> 
> ...




Good to hear things are getting better...challenges will always be there sometimes our mind makes us think its far worse than what it really is.


----------



## awg (1 September 2010)

Just listening to Prof Gordon Parker on the radio, saying spring is the season for mood disorder, especially mania, but also depression.

Interestingly, he stated lifetime risk for Bipolar Type 2 is know regarded as 6%..up from 1%.

This is a very high figure, more than 1 in 17...think of how many ASF posters could be nuts...DYOR on investment advice:

Very few people understand the way this illness manifests itself.

Take the case of Matthew Newton..a more obvious case of unstable Bipolar could not be found, so why do they just not come out and say so?

Even though I understand he has been previously diagnosed, the charade continues. 

It sounds like he is psychotic, which can lead to persons becoming violent

Abuse of many recreational drugs leads to a psychosis so similar to other pychosis that up to 2 weeks in a mental health unit, detoxifying is required to stabilise the patient

There is a high correlation between personality disorder, substance abuse disorder and bipolar in the past, and they are difficult to treat if they wont stop abusing recreational drugs, or adher to other aspects of a good mental health care plan


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## waza1960 (27 October 2010)

Well I'm sorry to say the Black dog has really got me ATM .The purpose of this post is not to gain sympathy but to understand some aspects of depression that haven't being explored as yet in this thread.
 I'm probably a little impaired in perspective ATM but it could be beneficial.
   The main thing I'm struggling with is it depression if you have a life time of negative events which feel accumulative which bring you down or is it when it just gets you when you can't find a specific cause or are these in both instances depression .Is depression more related to the depths that you get to or the length of time your in it . What is depression and does it even matter to quantify it although probably helpful to determine if medication is needed.
 I have being seeing a councillor which helps a little but I may have to consider Medication seeing the doctor next monday just hoping to make it through till then.


----------



## sails (27 October 2010)

Well done for sharing, Waza, I admire your courage...

I think the cause of depression can be so varied and the term "depression" is a huge umbrella covering all sorts of medical and/or psychological issues.  Most likely the negative feelings are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, regardless of what upset those imbalances initially. The main thing is that, while it is very unpleasant to go through, things can and do get better.  Even if it means a change to lifestyle, there is always hope for improvement - and more so with help.

So glad to hear you are seeing your doctor - that's another positive step as you are recognising something is not right.  If you feel you can't hang in there until Monday, one option is to give LifeLine a call 13 11 14.  I had to phone them once with my daughter and they were so helpful and understanding.  

If things get too desperate, the other option I would suggest is to go to emergency at your local hospital as they will possibly give you medication to help take the edge off the negative feelings until you see your own GP.  My experience with the public hospital on another occasion when my daughter needed help urgently was a positive experience.

My daughter has talked about some of her darkest times and so I have the greatest respect for those who face the black dog.  She has found improvement with medication which has helped to bring some balance back to the chemical issues in the brain.

Please let us know how you are going and, above all, don't allow the dog to win.  At least give treatment a big priority..


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## Sean K (27 October 2010)

waza1960 said:


> I have being seeing a councillor which helps a little but I may have to consider Medication seeing the doctor next monday just hoping to make it through till then.



Go now!


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## derty (27 October 2010)

kennas said:


> Go now!



Yes, and make sure you get the GP to give you a referral to a psychologist, you get a Medicare rebate if referred by a GP. You get 6 visits with the ability to extend if the psych thinks it is necessary. The meds are good to stabilise the depression but seeing a psychologist will help you understand what is happening and will give you tools to help deal with it (the good ones can also assist with the medication, doctors can sometimes be a little off the mark with their psychological diagnosis)


----------



## Solly (27 October 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Well I'm sorry to say the Black dog has really got me ATM .The purpose of this post is not to gain sympathy but to understand some aspects of depression that haven't being explored as yet in this thread.
> I'm probably a little impaired in perspective ATM but it could be beneficial.
> The main thing I'm struggling with is it depression if you have a life time of negative events which feel accumulative which bring you down or is it when it just gets you when you can't find a specific cause or are these in both instances depression .Is depression more related to the depths that you get to or the length of time your in it . What is depression and does it even matter to quantify it although probably helpful to determine if medication is needed.
> I have being seeing a councillor which helps a little but I may have to consider Medication seeing the doctor next monday just hoping to make it through till then.




Mate, I'm not a Phycologist but never ever UNDERESTIMATE the power YOU hold with in yourself.

Take time to look around at the country you live in, the beauty, the riches and the wonder that is around you.

It's all up to you....choices. You CHOOSE the way you feel and react to things. 

Nothing,  ****ing nothing is ever as bad as it seems.

Cultivate and nourish an "anything is possible" mentality.

Never, never lose faith or question the power of your own abilities.

Maybe, listen to the words here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5-yKhDd64s


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## Max Smart (27 October 2010)

Dear Bradk sorry to hear about your battle with depression but its my first day on site and Im a little confused.Thought I had joined a stock market forum that discusses stock/shares etc. Could someone explain....?


----------



## marklar (27 October 2010)

As someone who has also faced this insidious disease, I'd like to voice my appreciation for those of you that have shared with us in this thread.

About 6 years ago I expressed "a feeling of great sadness" to my wife, it took me another 2 years to hit rock-bottom, living from minute to minute and planning my suicide.

I ended up saving myself, I made a massive number of changes in my life including walking out on 10 years of marriage.  I had support from colleagues and friends (yes, you do find out who your true friends really are) and I'm now doing a lot better.

For anyone that even thinks they're going through this, please, get help.  Whatever it takes, do it!


----------



## Julia (27 October 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Well I'm sorry to say the Black dog has really got me ATM .The purpose of this post is not to gain sympathy but to understand some aspects of depression that haven't being explored as yet in this thread.
> I'm probably a little impaired in perspective ATM but it could be beneficial.
> The main thing I'm struggling with is it depression if you have a life time of negative events which feel accumulative which bring you down or is it when it just gets you when you can't find a specific cause or are these in both instances depression .Is depression more related to the depths that you get to or the length of time your in it . What is depression and does it even matter to quantify it although probably helpful to determine if medication is needed.
> I have being seeing a councillor which helps a little but I may have to consider Medication seeing the doctor next monday just hoping to make it through till then.



Waza, your questions are so reasonable, yet are often not addressed.

Re 'is it depression following a lifetime of negative events'?:  this used to be called "reactive depression" and is what most of us would consider a reasonable response to continued trauma and/or sadness.

Imo it's an indication of bloody sanity:  i.e. if you were happy and joyful after a lifetime of tough happenings, there'd be something wrong.

But some medical/psychological opinion has it that if you experience this sort of reactive (reasonable/responsive) depression for long enough, then the chemicals in your brain do actually change, and you will need anti depressants to effect a cure.  I don't personally subscribe to this, but many do.

On the other hand, what was for many years called 'endogenous depression', or a depression with no obvious cause, just that debilitating and dreadful sense of utter blackness, no sense of optimism for the future, seems to almost always need the chemical assistance of antidepressants.

The usefulness of seeing a psychologist can be for that person to help you sort out what sort of depression you're experiencing, and therefore the most appropriate treatment.

Don't be afraid to contact, say, three psychologists (with the referral from your GP) asking for ten minutes of their time in order to establish whether you and he/she are comfortable with each other.  You will not necessarily be comfortable with any psychologist.  If any professional refuses to agree to this ten minutes, they wouldn't be empathic anyway.





derty said:


> Yes, and make sure you get the GP to give you a referral to a psychologist, you get a Medicare rebate if referred by a GP. You get 6 visits with the ability to extend if the psych thinks it is necessary. The meds are good to stabilise the depression but seeing a psychologist will help you understand what is happening and will give you tools to help deal with it (the good ones can also assist with the medication, doctors can sometimes be a little off the mark with their psychological diagnosis)



Agree absolutely.  GP's are too quick to whack out the prescription for antidepressants without going into any background.




Solly said:


> Mate, I'm not a Phycologist but never ever UNDERESTIMATE the power YOU hold with in yourself.
> 
> Take time to look around at the country you live in, the beauty, the riches and the wonder that is around you.
> 
> It's all up to you....choices. You CHOOSE the way you feel and react to things.



I really worry when I read something like this, however well intentioned it is.
Certainly, we'll all have times when we do need to underline what is positive in our lives, but if waza has a serious clinical level of depression, trying to think that all is just terrific, will probably actually be counter-productive.

I'd like instead that the decision were made by a competent psychologist.



> Nothing,  ****ing nothing is ever as bad as it seems.



Well, actually, sometimes it just is every bit as bad as it seems, even if just to the sufferer.  When this is the case, someone telling you to just, um, look on the bright side is humiliating and can increase the sense of inadequacy.




Max Smart said:


> Dear Bradk sorry to hear about your battle with depression but its my first day on site and Im a little confused.Thought I had joined a stock market forum that discusses stock/shares etc. Could someone explain....?



Well, now Max Smart:  why don't you just check and you will see that you are in the "General Chat" forum, something you will have had to have made a specific effort to click into, as it's no longer on the Home Page.

Feel entirely free to ignore such threads that have no interest for you, rather than make unhelpful comments on a thread which is clearly titled Depression.

Waza, I do feel for you.  Heed the advice from others about getting early help if you feel you need it.  Always better to seek help early than wait until it's too late.  Hope you'll keep us posted.
All the best, and thank you for the courageous post.
Julia


----------



## sails (27 October 2010)

Julia said:


> ...But some medical/psychological opinion has it that if you experience this sort of reactive (reasonable/responsive) depression for long enough, then the chemicals in your brain do actually change, and you will need anti depressants to effect a cure.  I don't personally subscribe to this, but many do.
> 
> On the other hand, what was for many years called 'endogenous depression', or a depression with no obvious cause, just that debilitating and dreadful sense of utter blackness, no sense of optimism for the future, seems to almost always need the chemical assistance of antidepressants.
> 
> The usefulness of seeing a psychologist can be for that person to help you sort out what sort of depression you're experiencing, and therefore the most appropriate treatment.




I totally agree with this, Julia, and feel that antidepressants are dished out too frequently to those whose depression is due to negative circumstances.  When the circumstances become more positive, there is a general lifting of the negativity and one can feel so much better.  However, it is probably better to err on the side of caution especially if one feels they can't keep going.  



> I really worry when I read something like this, however well intentioned it is.
> Certainly, we'll all have times when we do need to underline what is positive in our lives, but if waza has a serious clinical level of depression, trying to think that all is just terrific, will probably actually be counter-productive.
> 
> I'd like instead that the decision were made by a competent psychologist.
> ...




Yes, this is so true.  When brain chemicals are not right, it seems that positivity will not help.  I have been told on a number of occasions not to say,  "just get over it" as it so often puts the sufferer into even deeper despair that they are not able to function normally.  Rational thinking can become quite distorted, hence the need to obtain the necessary help quickly.


----------



## Solly (28 October 2010)

Julia said:


> Waza, your questions are so reasonable, yet are often not addressed.
> 
> Re 'is it depression following a lifetime of negative events'?:  this used to be called "reactive depression" and is what most of us would consider a reasonable response to continued trauma and/or sadness.
> 
> ...




Waza, you are brave for posting, all power to you.

I hold a different position to Julia but I do recommend that you do seek professional advice as soon as possible. I have observed a remarkable recovery by someone who underwent Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. Maybe this is an avenue you can seek advice about.


----------



## waza1960 (28 October 2010)

> Mate, I'm not a Phycologist but never ever UNDERESTIMATE the power YOU hold with in yourself.
> 
> Take time to look around at the country you live in, the beauty, the riches and the wonder that is around you.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the thoughts but......................
 I do realise some of the above i.e I have three wonderful children I'm extremely proud of but when you get depressed this stuff is on a different level and can be counter productive as in I shouldn't be depressed . BTW my children are the reason I'm still here.
 If you are truely depressed you don't have a choice thats the point and thats the scary part.
I'm a confident person by nature and have being very successful in some aspects of my life and know that one day I could  be an exceptional trader but again this is irrelevant to the way I feel now.
 The councillor I'm seeing is a psychologist and I am comfortable talking to her so thats a start but apart from that I'm not sure if this is helping ATM.
   Thanks so much for your post Julia which addresses my OP and makes sense of some of the stuff which I found somewhat confusing.
  But this now opens another can of worms in that I have no doubt that I have the reactive depression which you have stated but I'm thinking that the below statement maybe true.


> But some medical/psychological opinion has it that if you experience this sort of reactive (reasonable/responsive) depression for long enough, then the chemicals in your brain do actually change, and you will need anti depressants to effect a cure.



 Also note that I don't believe in taking any medication except as a last resort.
   The other issue is that I've being subjected to more regular negative events recently which are undermining my mental state.
  Thanks for the goodwill posted here it really helps.


----------



## Boggo (28 October 2010)

waza1960 said:


> Also note that I don't believe in taking any medication except as a last resort.




I used to have the same view waza, brought up on a farm, "get a good feed and a good sleep and you will be ok" type fix.
My wife would not be alive if it wasn't for constant drugs, while we (or you) may not like them you are better with them than without them especially if they are prescribed by a specialist in the area of the potential problem.
There are some pretty amazing people out there now specialising in every aspect of human problems, make full use of them.



> The other issue is that I've being subjected to more regular negative events recently which are undermining my mental state.




That is just how things seem to work for some reason, there always is an additional obstacle.

I reckon that the fact you are willing to discuss it even on here with people you don't really know (but are very sympathetic) means you have got a grip on the problem, its just all about endurance from here.


----------



## Julia (14 November 2010)

Has anyone heard from waza?
Just wondering how he's doing.


----------



## BradK (14 November 2010)

Max Smart said:


> Dear Bradk sorry to hear about your battle with depression but its my first day on site and Im a little confused.Thought I had joined a stock market forum that discusses stock/shares etc. Could someone explain....?




Lol... I'm all good now. Thanks Max Smart! This is the general discussion part of the forum. That was another time, another place for me. It feels so remote to me now... but, I am very very very aware that people suffer from this for many many years and struggle with it. That, fortunately has not been my story. Thanks to drugs, therapy, support and a willingness to discuss things with my mates. 

Bit of concern about Waza - I have just revisited this thread. Have been marking the HSC in Sydney and have been pulling massive hours in the last 3 weeks, so I haven't been around since Waza appeared on this thread. 

Waza - go get some help buddy. No shame in asking. As someone said quite accurately, 'Nothing, f^%*$ing nothing, is ever as bad as it seems' 

Brad


----------



## waza1960 (15 November 2010)

Thanks for all the support this forum is  one of a few avenues that I have to express myself.
           I have being on medication now for the last couple of weeks and I feel calm and not anxious which is such a relief as I have not had this feeling for so long.
               I am continuing to see the psychologist and the doctor they are both showing concern for my mental state.
           I feel if I can get past the next couple of months I'll be ok.
           The doctor said that they don't categorize depression as reactive anymore but as minor or major.
  Good to hear your going well Brad gives me some hope.
   I can see now one of the problems was that I had limited support which made things worse.
   I'm just taking one day at a time ATM. thanks


----------



## sails (15 November 2010)

So good to hear things are improving, Waza... 
I agree that it is a one day at a time thing and support is extremely important.


----------



## burglar (2 January 2011)

My sympathy goes to all sufferers !

My GP wanted me on medication, my vocational case manager too.
But my psychologist warned against it.

I chose against medication. And here is my reason:
I did not want to become someone else, I wanted to be myself !
The irony ... I became someone else, ... anyways !

burglar


----------



## motorway (3 January 2011)

For what its worth.. ( and hope the info is helpful )
And just Search Vit D and Depression for more info if it interests you..

But easy to see a vicious cycle here imo.
A Downward spiral of health , depression and Vit D status
compounding .. both Body and Mind...

The effect of sunlight on  mood  itself can not be underestimated





> Depression is likely to occur more often in people who get less vitamin D, a recent report has found.
> Other studies have found that vitamin D deficiencies have been linked to an increase in depression. However, researchers at Georgia State University provided more-conclusive evidence to support the vitamin D-depression link in research published earlier this month.
> 
> The study found that those with a significant deficiency in the vitamin had an 85 percent chance of being depressed.
> Researchers evaluated nearly 8,000 non-institutionalized people in the United States aged 15 to 39 to come up with their findings.







> A LACK of vitamin D has long been linked to depression, but researchers believe it may contribute to psychiatric conditions such as personality disorders and post-traumatic stress disorder.
> 
> A study of more than 50 patients at a private psychiatric clinic in Geelong found that almost 60 per cent were suffering a severe vitamin D deficiency and 11 per cent were moderately deficient, prompting researchers to question whether vitamin D supplements could reduce mental illness across the board.






> Evidence exists that major depression is associated with low vitamin D levels and that depression has increased in the last century as vitamin D levels have surely fallen. Evidence exists that depression is associated with heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, cancer and low bone mineral density, all illnesses thought to be caused, in part, by vitamin D deficiency. *Finally, vitamin D has profound effects on the brain including the neurotransmitters involved in major depression. Therefore, vitamin D may help major depression.*
> 
> It is too early to say. To know for sure, patients with severe major depression would have to have baseline 25(OH)D blood levels, be treated with doses of vitamin D adequate to raise their levels to at least 35 ng/mL for several months and be compared to a normal control group treated with placebo.
> 
> *No one has ever published such a study.However, it is not to early to heed the following advice: If you suffer from depression, get your 25(OH)D level checked and, if it is lower than 35 ng/mL (87 nM/L), you are vitamin D deficient and should begin treatment. If you are not depressed, get your 25(OH)D level checked anyway. If it is lower than 35 ng/mL (87 nM/L), you are vitamin D deficient and should begin treatment.*







> DOES VITAMIN D AFFECT THE BRAIN?
> 
> Vitamin D rapidly increases the in-vitro genetic expression of tyrosine hydroxylase (the rate-limiting enzyme for the catecholamine biosynthesis) by threefold.    Summer sunlight increases brain serotonin levels twice as much as winter sunlight, a finding compatible with both bright light in the visible spectrum and vitamin D affecting mood.
> 
> ...




http://www.vitamindcouncil.org 

Glutathione connection I find especially interesting
Vitamin D upregulates Glutathione..

When you think about it 
The Elderly , The Frail ,  The Ill as well as the Depressed
can easily fall into a Deficient Vitamin D spiral

So the question is I think  

* Is there any good reason to be Vitamin D deficient ? *

People are going to have to answer that for themselves !

Parkinson's , Alzheimer , Autism & Schizophrenia are also being connected to low D. 

D is the KEY etc

Also for what it is worth I have found significant mood enhancement effects personally.



> Lambert, et al, drew arterial and venous blood samples form 101 healthy Australian men over a one-year period and found strong correlations between ambient sunlight and production of serotonin in the brain.




Motorway


----------



## motorway (3 January 2011)

Link to the Study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21067618

Motorway



> Int Arch Med. 2010 Nov 11;3:29.
> 
> Serum vitamin D concentrations are related to depression in young adult US population: the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.
> Ganji V, Milone C, Cody MM, McCarty F, Wang YT.
> ...


----------



## noco (3 January 2011)

At some stage in life, very few of us escape depression whether it is caused loss of a family member, employer bullying or a bad marriage and I can relate from experience.

Having experienced 13 years of a nagging dominate wife, my desperation almost led to disaster. I was a nervous wreck, unable to talk to people without breaking down in tears and taking to alcohol for solace.  So I decided, after talking to a psycho-analyst, it would be better for my two children to have at least one parent to take care of them in lieu of one parent in jail and the other 6 feet under. This specialist explained to me if my nerves "cracked', I would loose all control of my brain and have no idea what was happening until it was too late. I am normally a placid and easy going person but depression can convert one into a monster if allowed to continue..

I broke from the marriage and took up Yoga and Meditation which I practised for 18 years. It is a great way to release  the built up tentions and would recommend to anyone in the same circumstances.


----------



## motorway (3 January 2011)

noco said:


> At some stage in life, very few of us escape depression whether it is caused loss of a family member, employer bullying or a bad marriage and I can relate from experience.
> 
> Having experienced 13 years of a nagging dominate wife, my desperation almost led to disaster. I was a nervous wreck, unable to talk to people without breaking down in tears and taking to alcohol for solace.  So I decided, after talking to a psycho-analyst, it would be better for my two children to have at least one parent to take care of them in lieu of one parent in jail and the other 6 feet under. This specialist explained to me if my nerves "cracked', I would loose all control of my brain and have no idea what was happening until it was too late. I am normally a placid and easy going person but depression can convert one into a monster if allowed to continue..
> 
> I broke from the marriage and took up Yoga and Meditation which I practised for 18 years. It is a great way to release  the built up tentions and would recommend to anyone in the same circumstances.




Hi noco.. This links in with my post on D ( And we have all known or Know of people where Depression wrecked lives... Certainly I know and have known )

Mediatation is involved with these fight or fight hormones..

We live in a world were this can just spin out of control.
A modern world.. Where stress can become chronic..



> Catecholamines are hormones produced by the adrenal glands, which are found on top of the kidneys. They are released into the blood during times of physical or emotional stress. The major catecholamines are dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine (which used to be called *adrenalin*).
> 
> Catecholamines are sympathomimetic[1] "fight-or-flight" hormones released by the adrenal glands in response to stress.[2] They are part of the sympathetic nervous system.




I drew attention to Glutathione which is the brain's master antioxidant.

But this is very pertinent to Mental Health..

*  Vitamin D rapidly increases the in-vitro genetic expression of tyrosine hydroxylase (the rate-limiting enzyme for the catecholamine biosynthesis) by threefold.*

*This the rate limiting enzyme for the fight or fight hormones..
*

It is what is supposed to stop this system spinning out of control and becoming chronic..


Motorway


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## Julia (3 January 2011)

motorway said:


> Mediatation is involved with these fight or fight hormones..



Don't you mean 'fight or *flight*'?

You make the same mistake further down and don't usually make any typos, Motorway.

Just wondering if you're not actually familiar with the 'fight or *flight* mechanism.


----------



## motorway (3 January 2011)

Julia said:


> Don't you mean 'fight or *flight*'?
> 
> You make the same mistake further down and don't usually make any typos, Motorway.
> 
> Just wondering if you're not actually familiar with the 'fight or *flight* mechanism.




Just a Typo

We all make them sometimes
or at least I do..


Motorway


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## satanoperca (3 January 2011)

Hi,

I thought I would add to this thread a little after experiencing depression over the last 20 years, stemming from a ABI (acquired brain injury).

Firstly, need to categorise the type of depression :

Physical - a prolonged chemical imbalance, often can only be treated with drugs.
Environmental - I hate my job, my marriage sucks, death of a loved one, can be treated after finding a good councillor.

Most importantly in combating depression is to slowly return your life to a normal balance and routine :
1) Food, watch what you eat, many chemicals in foods can affect brain and body chemistry making us more prong to periods of depression. You wouldn't put dirty petrol in your car and expect it to run well, so why do it to your mind and body. Look at what you eat. I work on a 20/80 rule or 80% of the food I eat must be healthy, it is just fuel for my brain and body, the other 20% can be bad and just for taste.
2) Excercise, the modern human being does not do nearly enough excercise in a week. Physical activity relieves stress, releases feel good chemicals in the brain and helps remove toxins from our bodies quicker.
3) As already mentioned, sunlight. This is vital to try and maintain happiness.
4) Meditation is the true savour of those suffering depression but is not for everyone and takes time to master.

Some mentioned Cognative Behavioural Therapy (CBT), I would highly recommend this book; Change Your Thinking - Second Edition
Sarah Edelman.

Now all of the above is great but of little use when in a state of depression, for this you need a coach, councillor, medical professional etc to help you build structure back into your life. Finding someone who can assist and help is the most difficult part in overcoming depression and dont give up just because the first medico didn't seem to work. Be willing to face your fears and understand that much of our thinking is controlled by the subconsious brain, CBT will help rewire parts of your thinking.

I personally hated medication and have found routine, food, excercise and meditation have been far more benefical in the long term. I do recommend that if in a bad state of depression that medication for the short term may be necessary. If the condition is severe medication may be the only perminant option but I would want at least 3 medical professionals opinion before I accepted it as the only option.

Good health and happy thoughts to those that suffer, but you do have a choice and life can get better, you just have to want to do it and have the drive to do it.

Cheers


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## Julia (30 March 2011)

I read in one of the weekend papers that toddlers as young as 2 and 3 years old are being taken to psychiatrists because their parents think they might be depressed!!

What on earth is happening here?

No wonder we have a so called epidemic of depression if parents are looking to find pathology in such undeveloped little psyches.

And then, although this is just a couple of anecdotal examples, I've come across healthy, successful young women who seem to be - despite acknowledging they have everything they have ever wanted in terms of relationship, job, material assets etc - 'seeking fulfillment'.  When I asked what they felt was missing, they had no idea.

Have we bred a generation whose expectations include some nebulous sense of perfect happiness, rather than the realistic understanding that much of life is just pretty ordinary, and to therefore find contentment in that?

I'm interested to know if anyone has any ideas about why so many people seem to be disappointed (as distinct from actually depressed) in their existence, even when they objectively agree there is nothing in particular they are seeking?

Maybe it's just too much of a culture of navel gazing and introspection, a peculiar self absorption that older generations didn't engage in?


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## Gringotts Bank (30 March 2011)

People are missing their authentic selves, creating anxiety and depression. or just meaninglessness.  They then pass it on to their kids, who have precious few defenses at age 2.

Early signs in young kids will be food allergies, reslessness, bags under their eyes (just like Mummy!), frequent ENT infections, etc.


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## sails (30 March 2011)

Julia said:


> I read in one of the weekend papers that toddlers as young as 2 and 3 years old are being taken to psychiatrists because their parents think they might be depressed!!
> 
> What on earth is happening here?...




Maybe the parents can't handle the two-three year old tantrums...lol.  I had forgotten just how bad they could be until these last couple of years with a stubborn little granddaughter.  I can imagine that some parents might think there is something wrong with their kids...

Thankfully, this little one has almost left that unacceptable behaviour behind and is becomming much easier to manage these days.  It seems that persistently rewarding good behaviour and ignoring the bad (as much as possible) has eventually worked it's magic.


----------



## sails (29 June 2011)

Thought this might be worth noting on this thread - calls to Life Line will be free from mobiles from anywhere in Australia from the 1st July.  I think this is a positive thing and those who suffer from depression might be a good idea to keep the number in the phone.  It is 13 11 14.

Story from the ABC: Lifeline calls to be free from mobiles


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## Logique (23 July 2011)

No reason on Senator pay that you need to steal $92 worth of groceries. Best wishes to Sen Fisher for her recovery from a debilitating, but treatable illness.

From the SMH: 







> https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa...6NCGDA&usg=AFQjCNFG5fCDc6BqXT4Md_pmRJ65qjuQFQ
> Senator charged with theft, assault
> Dylan Welch, SMH, July 23, 2011
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (23 July 2011)

Logique said:


> No reason on Senator pay that you need to steal $92 worth of groceries. Best wishes to Sen Fisher for her recovery from a debilitating, but treatable illness.



+1, Logique.   Surely this could have been kept quiet so that public humiliation is not added to her difficulties.

On a pragmatic note, am I right in thinking she's a member of the S.A. Senate, not the Federal Senate, i.e. that if she resigns it won't affect the Coalition's numbers?


----------



## Logique (23 July 2011)

No she's federal Julia, but it's a Greens balance of power anyway. I honestly don't know what happens if for example, she gets absence of leave for treatment - talk of negotiated pairs a while ago, in another situation - a Labor Senator is paired off in the votes.


----------



## Glen48 (23 July 2011)

Convicting her and making an example will do nothing just shows how stupid the law is. She should not be charged but made to say sorry and given medical help if there is any.


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## Julia (23 July 2011)

Logique said:


> No she's federal Julia, but it's a Greens balance of power anyway. I honestly don't know what happens if for example, she gets absence of leave for treatment - talk of negotiated pairs a while ago, in another situation - a Labor Senator is paired off in the votes.



Thanks Logique.  Of course.  I was stupidly getting confused about the numbers in the lower house, rather than the Senate.


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## satanoperca (23 July 2011)

Depression is not an excuse for poor and inappropriate actions. Yes it is unfortunate that people suffer from depression, but they need to take responsiblilty and seek help and not use it as an escape goat after they have been caught doing something wrong.

I also firmly believe that the majority of people that suffer from depression just need a good foot up the bum and nothing else. They feel that accepting the label, depressive excuses them from their actions, wrong. 

Wake up people and smell the roses the world is a wonderful place to live in.

Cheers


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2011)

satanoperca said:


> Depression is not an excuse for poor and inappropriate actions. Yes it is unfortunate that people suffer from depression, but they need to take responsiblilty and seek help and not use it as an escape goat after they have been caught doing something wrong.
> 
> I also firmly believe that the majority of people that suffer from depression just need a good foot up the bum and nothing else. They feel that accepting the label, depressive excuses them from their actions, wrong.
> 
> ...




True.

But it's "scapegoat" 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scapegoat


----------



## Muschu (23 July 2011)

satanoperca said:


> ....I also firmly believe that the majority of people that suffer from depression just need a good foot up the bum and nothing else. They feel that accepting the label, depressive excuses them from their actions, wrong.....
> 
> I wonder on what personal experiences or qualifications you base these comments?
> 
> ...


----------



## sails (23 July 2011)

Muschu said:


> ...I wonder on what personal experiences or qualifications you base these comments?
> 
> Perhaps it is you that needs a "good foot up the bum" -- or is this incomprehensible?
> 
> ...





Yes, I have been told that to tell a depressed person just to "get over it" rarely works, and in fact, is more likely to make them worse.

I wish it were that easy...


----------



## Muschu (23 July 2011)

sails said:


> Yes, I have been told that to tell a depressed person just to "get over it" rarely works, and in fact, is more likely to make them worse.
> 
> I wish it were that easy...




Thanks Sails - you display a much higher level of understanding.  Depression is complicated and dehabilitating.

Nobody would dismiss a more "obvious" medical issue [like epilepsy (or a broken leg)] like this.

Other medical illnesses [like autism and depression] are very individual and more challenging to both diagnose and treat.  This does not mean that they are not very real. 

Several and different treatments assist for depression.  Medications [short or long term] often help.  So too does CBT [which is probably above on this page].

I also have respect for MBCT [Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy] which a Google search will help to define.

Would you tell someone with a broken leg,  dementia, schizophrenia or post-traumatic-stress disorder to just "get over it"?  

I know you wouldn't but I find the fact that this attitude is still out there to be quite "depressing".

Let's support people in trouble and not add to their condition with uninformed posts.

Rick


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> True.
> 
> But it's "scapegoat"
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scapegoat




I didn't read the post correctly and would like to reverse my affirmation with apologies to anyone suffering depression. Sails and Rick are spot on.

And it's still scapegoat.


----------



## Muschu (24 July 2011)

wayneL said:


> I didn't read the post correctly and would like to reverse my affirmation with apologies to anyone suffering depression. Sails and Rick are spot on.
> 
> And it's still scapegoat.




Thank you Wayne.  It takes some gumption to do this.  Good on you!!


----------



## satanoperca (24 July 2011)

Read my post further up and I don’t think I stated telling people to “get over it”. Rather they need a firm hand and guidance to develop routine in their lives to manage it. Also like to state, that depression is a natural part of life, everyone will experience it in some point in their lives. It is when it takes control over their lives and happiness leading to many months of ill feelings that there is a problem.

I do wonder how many of you have fought this illness, I have firsthand experience of it over two decades. I understand all the complexities of dealing with and learning to live with depression. I work hard to maintain an active and happy life, it is always in the back of my mind the horrible feelings of desperation when I have had a bad depressive period.

In the majority of case a good foot is needed, however there are always outliners that need professional medical treatment.
I would simply ask any person suffering depression:
1) what is it that has made them feel that way (often they do not know or wish to talk about)

2) what have they done to prevent the feelings from arising ( need to address why the feelings are there, face their demons. In some cases there is no reason but a chemical imbalance in their brain chemistry. In this case often they only treatment if the depression is sever is medication

3) Do they exercise regularly? The benefits of exercise in releasing endorphins in the brain are well documented 

4) What food do they eat? Food/fuel is vital to a healthy mind. I can often tell if a depressive period is approaching or I have already entered as my mind/body moves away from healthy food into sugar  and preservative rich foods.  The more crap I eat, the worse and the longer the depressive period. 

5) Do they smoke, drink and take drugs (generally a give in for most depressed people) this is when medication can give them a window to bring structure back into their life and slowly take back control.
The reality is, treatment is often very difficult to find and diagnosis is often incorrect making it harder for a person to persist in getting better.
\
Fire away people.


----------



## Glen48 (24 July 2011)

I was reading about an orphan girl on India who goes around _every_ day picking up single grains of rice at the markets until she has enough to sell sometimes she gets robbed and goes with out food so tell her about depression and how some thing is missing in her life or why Men should or should not open doors, she would love to even own a door  she could sell it and buy things she needs to survive.. with Western attitudes is it any wonder it is all tanking due to excess credit and stupidity at least she is happier  than the Westerners but she doesn't know it.

All are looking for some thing that never existed and never will.  

 We can see In China etc were the mental illness is creeping in and they are wanting designer goods once credit cards come in it will be a repeat of our life style.


----------



## Julia (24 July 2011)

Muschu said:


> Wasting my time but hoping others will understand.



No, Rick, it is never a waste of time to contradict what is wrong, whether that 'wrongness' derives from ignorance, misunderstanding, or even at times simple nastiness.



wayneL said:


> I didn't read the post correctly and would like to reverse my affirmation with apologies to anyone suffering depression. Sails and Rick are spot on.



I'm relieved to see this post, Wayne.  Thought you'd undergone a radical change to your usual understanding.



satanoperca said:


> Read my post further up and I don’t think I stated telling people to “get over it”. Rather they need a firm hand and guidance to develop routine in their lives to manage it. Also like to state, that depression is a natural part of life, everyone will experience it in some point in their lives. It is when it takes control over their lives and happiness leading to many months of ill feelings that there is a problem.
> 
> I do wonder how many of you have fought this illness, I have firsthand experience of it over two decades. I understand all the complexities of dealing with and learning to live with depression. I work hard to maintain an active and happy life, it is always in the back of my mind the horrible feelings of desperation when I have had a bad depressive period.
> 
> ...



Satanoperca, maybe if your original post had been along these lines you'd not have drawn the criticism and disagreement you have.

I can at least partly see what you're saying.   I have concerns that we are experiencing somewhat of a medicalisation of ordinary human sadness.

This is not in the least to suggest much depression is not intractable and needs medication.  But we do seem to jump on the bandwagon of "oh he must be depressed" whenever someone displays a diminished mood.

Anti depressant drugs, whilst very effective for some people, are pretty potent and can cause significant quite dreadful side effects.  I've known three people who, when experiencing a period of what I'd describe as 'normal sadness' following the breakup of a relationship, post natal depression and grief at the death of a mother, were prescribed anti depressants.  All these three experienced quite terrifying suicidal impulses which they'd certainly not had before starting the medication.

So, I'm with you in first trying conservative, sensible measures like lots of vigorous exercise, healthy eating and avoiding too much alcohol.

And I simply don't believe we should regard ordinary variations of mood as symptoms of a mental illness.  Surely we should not expect to be 100% happy all the time?

All that said, I do feel for Mary Jo Fisher as quite obviously anyone in her financial situation does not need to steal groceries, and further someone so in the public eye would be wanting to avoid negative publicity, so surely we need to draw the conclusion that she was not in control of her emotional/psychological state at the time.

Lastly, it's just sad that such an event has been so widely publicised.  I can't begin to imagine how much more difficult this will make everything for her.


----------



## cynic (25 July 2011)

satanoperca said:


> Wake up people and smell the roses the world is a wonderful place to live in.




For those suffering severe depression the universe and everything therein is an unrelenting Hell! 



satanoperca said:


> 3) Do they exercise regularly? The benefits of exercise in releasing endorphins in the brain are well documented
> 
> 4) What food do they eat? Food/fuel is vital to a healthy mind. I can often tell if a depressive period is approaching or I have already entered as my mind/body moves away from healthy food into sugar  and preservative rich foods.  The more crap I eat, the worse and the longer the depressive period.






Muschu said:


> Several and different treatments assist for depression.  Medications [short or long term] often help.  So too does CBT [which is probably above on this page].
> 
> I also have respect for MBCT [Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy] which a Google search will help to define.




The numerous helpful items of advice on this thread accompanied by the sincerity with which they are proffered is most commendable, but please understand the complexity of the human organism and the variety of obscure physiological conditions that can give rise to depression. I know of a number of people who suffer severe depression as a consequence of affliction with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, Fibro Myalgia and a number of other diseases that are typically associated with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. For people suffering CFS symptoms popular "cure all" remedies need to be approached with extreme care lest they exacerbate the condition.



> Excerpt from "Missed Diagnoses"(ISBN 978-0-557-32517-7) by Byron Hyde M.D.
> 
> "Whether this suggested treatment protocol employs pharmaceuticals, cognitive or physical retraining, or alternative medications and treatments, these treatment modalities and philosophies are not medically justifiable and are often potentially dangerous to the patient."






Muschu said:


> Depression is complicated and dehabilitating.
> 
> Nobody would dismiss a more "obvious" medical issue [like epilepsy (or a broken leg)] like this.
> 
> Other medical illnesses [like autism and depression] are very individual and more challenging to both diagnose and treat.  This does not mean that they are not very real.




Very true.


Muschu said:


> Would you tell someone with a broken leg,  dementia, schizophrenia or post-traumatic-stress disorder to just "get over it"?
> 
> I know you wouldn't but I find the fact that this attitude is still out there to be quite "depressing".
> 
> ...




I wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## awg (25 July 2011)

With regards to the SA Senator and whether her condition excuses her situation,

well unfortunately for her, she will have to demonstrate the individual facts of the case in public justice, thats how the system works for everyone.

imo, depression or anxiety can give rise to serious lapse of both concentration and judgement, but not normally excuse moral issues, such as a deliberate decision to steal, which is different to forgetting to pay and panicking.

I would agree with santanoperca more contentious remarks to an extent by saying that imo, almost all the heavy lifting has to be done by the sufferer, and if they cant or wont work hard to manage their condition with a planned strategy, then the chance of chronic relapse is higher.

I probably take a bit of a hardline view on that though.

Having said that anyone going through that **** has my sympathy and I dont think their is sufficient kindness and understanding about

Also of issue obviously in all these instances of high profile people, they use their discretional "judgement" as a tool of their work. 

If that judgement becomes impaired due to a psychiatric illness ( which it indisputedly can), imo, they really should not be working...(they should be on sick leave)..dunno how you fix that problem. Can you mumble career-damaging stigma?  

with up to 5% at any one time and 20% lifetime chance of depression, figures are much higher for anxiety conditions...these are spectrum conditions ranging from mild to severe.


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## sails (28 December 2011)

Just wondering if anyone has any experience or know of anyone else who has come off the antipsychotic drug "seroquel"?

I trusted my daughter's doctor and did not research the medications she was given.  She tends to be very flat with depression and I have never seen any mania in her and yet she was given this drug about 3-4 years ago.  Whether it is the drug company who is failing to educate or the doctor at fault, I don't know, but the real issues is how to get her off it.  I have read blogs of people coming off this stuff and some have found it to be worse than heroin to get off and can permanently damage the brain.  I have given her so much support to help her recover not knowing that she is being turned into a zombie by this drug and is becomming more and more incapable of even light duties now.

Her GP wants her off it but it seems he thinks it is easy to come off.  I wish he would google "seroquel withdrawal" and see what people have gone through.  It seems there is inadequate education for GPs and Psychiatrists when reading the stories of other's journey to get off this horrific stuff which might be OK for extreme mania, but not for general anxiety and insomnia.

A couple of excerpts from the link below:



> Once upon a time, antipsychotics were reserved for a relatively small number of patients with hard-core psychiatric diagnoses - primarily schizophrenia and bipolar disorder - to treat such symptoms as delusions, hallucinations, or formal thought disorder. Today, it seems, everyone is taking antipsychotics. Parents are told that their unruly kids are in fact bipolar, and in need of anti-psychotics, while old people with dementia are dosed, in large numbers, with drugs once reserved largely for schizophrenics. Americans with symptoms ranging from chronic depression to anxiety to insomnia are now being prescribed anti-psychotics at rates that seem to indicate a national mass psychosis.




and



> Elliott reports in Mother Jones: "After another large analysis in The Lancet found that most atypicals actually performed worse than older drugs, two senior British psychiatrists penned a damning editorial that ran in the same issue. Dr. Peter Tyrer, the editor of the British Journal of Psychiatry, and Dr. Tim Kendall of the Royal College of Psychiatrists wrote: "The spurious invention of the atypicals can now be regarded as invention only, cleverly manipulated by the drug industry for marketing purposes and only now being exposed."




Mass psychosis in the US


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## Gringotts Bank (28 December 2011)

Like most drugs, seroquel has a number of 'off label' uses, anxiety being a common one.

Like most drugs, people have massively different effects, side effects and discontinuation symptoms.  I hadn't heard that seroquel was addictive so there shouldn't be withdrawal symptoms (discontinuation symptoms can feel very similar).
While you've seen and read about horrible effects of stopping, _there would undoubtedly be just as many people who have no difficulty at all in getting off it, but they tend not to post on forums. _ That's how drugs are - very unpredictable depending on your own chemistry, genetics, sensitivity, etc.

Your GP will know what medicine is best to use for easing the transition off seroquel.


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## sails (28 December 2011)

Thanks GB.  She has already reduced her dose and had side effects of insomnia, nausea and other issues.  The second reduction brought severe head pain to the mix and she was so sick she increased the dose until she can report this to her GP when he gets back from holidays.

She does not know all that I have read and so it's not mind over matter.  Because this medication is not considered addictive, medicos seem to think there are no withdrawal symptoms.  But I have read of those who have said this is every bit as difficult as heroin withdrawal.

And, it if is not addictive, why do people find they have to keep upping to dose to continue getting sleep?  And why do many suffer from terrible withdrawal with shooting pains, muscle spasms and twitches, diahorrea, vomiting, severe headaches, often completely sleepless nights for several days, dizziness - just to name a few?  This is not good for people who are already struggling in their lives.

I agree that most who get off without any trouble would not post, but we don't know if they exist.  And it seems strange that so many people who are unlikely to be related are reporting similar violent symptoms when trying to get off it.  And most find that the last 25mgs are the worst.


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## Gringotts Bank (28 December 2011)

sails said:


> Thanks GB.  She has already reduced her dose and had side effects of insomnia, nausea and other issues.  The second reduction brought severe head pain to the mix and she was so sick she increased the dose until she can report this to her GP when he gets back from holidays.
> 
> She does not know all that I have read and so it's not mind over matter.  Because this medication is not considered addictive, medicos seem to think there are no withdrawal symptoms.  But I have read of those who have said this is every bit as difficult as heroin withdrawal.
> 
> ...




Any doctor worth his salt will know that coming off psychoactive drugs of any type can be very painful and even dangerous.  So it needs to be closely monitored just in case there are symptoms of severe discontinuation, as with your daughter.  For some it would be as difficult as heroin withdrawl - I believe it.  But only for some.  Others would be fine.  It's very individual.

Non-addictive drugs shouldn't need to be continually increased for the same effect.  So I see your point.  But sometimes a person finds that a drug needs to be continually increased over a period of time _simply because their symptoms are worsening and so require higher doses._  Symptoms can wax and wane due to life events.  Some prescription drugs are addictive, but they are ok if used for short periods.  Not many doctors will put a young person on benzodiazepines for example, since they are only for short term relief of anxiety or insomnia.  They *are *addictive.  I don't think seroquel is addictive though.

All drugs will have a huge list of possible side effects, even aspirin.  And you can die a horrible and painful death from taking too much panadol, which is available in supermarkets.  Just some examples.  The ones with problems will go searching on the internet for others who have had similar problems.  Just like if you have a certain thing you want to understand about trading, you go straight to asf and ask someone!


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## Julia (28 December 2011)

Totally sensible comments, GB.  
The other point I'd perhaps make is that apparent withdrawal symptoms can occur for reasons other than the reduction of the drug dose, e.g. anxiety about not being able to sleep when the sedative effect of the drug is not there.

People sometimes become obsessed about the need for sleep imo.   If sleep has been artificially induced via a sedative drug, then almost certainly there's going to be a rebound problem with insomnia if the drug is withdrawn/reduced.  If the person is simply prepared to ride it out, sleep patterns will eventually settle down and be more useful than the drug induced somnolence.

Our society is breeding an ever increasing tendency to pathologise the quite ordinary swings of emotion which we all experience.   There's no rule which says we should expect to be happy and productive all the time.  Unhappiness, disappointment, failure etc are all part of a normal existence and do not (except in extreme cases) need a pill to make it all go away.

One of your points, Sails, is that you don't believe pharmaceutical companies sufficiently educate doctors.  Given that many doctors flat out refuse to see representatives of any drug companies or accept their literature, let's not blame the manufacturers for this.

Doctors also have access to detailed information about every drug and can always seek more if they are unsure by contacting the medical department of a drug company.

In addition, the package insert that comes with the prescribed drug clearly details potential side effects etc.

I don't quite know what more pharmaceutical companies can be expected to do.


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## sails (29 December 2011)

Julia,

If you read my initial post on this subject, I am asking for help.  I have asked if anyone has come off this medication.  My daughter has become very ill and needs to come off this medication asap.  Insomnia is but one of the side effects of withdrawal.  Shooting pains, involuntary muscle pains, brain zaps, severe and painful gastric upsets, uncontrollable shaking to name a few can hardly be put down to anxiety about sleep.  

Just because I expressed frustration that she has been given such a strong antipsychotic medication doesn't mean I want to have a massive dispute as to whose fault it is and neither do I have time for such an argument.  If someone is drowning, do lifesavers sit around to have an  argument as to how he got there while he continues to drown?  I am asking if anyone has got off this medication safely. I am looking for help from others who may have been through this.

After nearly four years of supporting her and her girls through her depression, I am devastated that she has been given something that could give her permanent brain damage.

My first priority is to learn as much as I can about this medication and how to get her off it as safely as possible. Is that too hard to understand?


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## sails (29 December 2011)

Is this really caused by anxiety about sleep? 25mg is the lowest tablet size.  I think the highest is around 300mg, so 25mg would seem to be a low dose.



> I made the mistake and quit seroquel from 25mg. I had been on it for 1 year. I have severe spasms that affect my walking. Rigidity is also present. I had insomnia for a week in the beginning but still i did not go back on seroquel or anything to help me sleep.I dont know what to do. I asked a few doctors after a few months of withdrawing it but they said that i should be fine after a year or so. A few said that i should go back on the dosage i was taking. It has been two years now and i dont know what to do. I cannot walk properly and normally like i used to. During the last few weeks of taking seroquel I got so weak and all and my body used to shake while doing pushup that i had to quit cold turkey. Very terrible position i am in. Can anyone tell me what to do or has anyone experienced these symptoms and knows how to get out of this situation? Any professional expert of seroquel affected effects? and withdrawal?




Seroquel Withdrawal


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## Tink (29 December 2011)

Hi Sails

I dont know of anyone thats been through depression/on medication, or any answers regarding your question, but just want to say, must be a very hard and scary time for you -- you are in my thoughts, and I hope all goes well with your daughter.


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## sails (29 December 2011)

Tink said:


> Hi Sails
> 
> I dont know of anyone thats been through depression/on medication, or any answers regarding your question, but just want to say, must be a very hard and scary time for you -- you are in my thoughts, and I hope all goes well with your daughter.




Thanks Tink - that means a lot 

Yes, it is very scary and thanks for understanding my reason for posting...


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## awg (29 December 2011)

Hi Sails

here are some opinions:

*a person with a diagnosed psychiatric condition should take the lowest dose of effective meds for them...consistently.

*Seroquel is an anti-psychotic, very heavy stuff, and should be used by those only who suffer repeat psychosis.

* medication and diagnosis ought be managed by a good psychiatrist.

* management of mental illness in the community by GPs is patchy, for various reasons

* seems the common standard for managing such conditions as severe anxiety, insomnia, alcoholism, agitation, withdrawl etc is Rivotrol, which is a long acting benzo, 

*they used to prescribe shorter acting ones like serepax or valium, but that is discouraged due to the side effects and addictiveness


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## lindsayf (29 December 2011)

Hi Sails
Hope the situation can be sorted out quickly.
Having had a chat with my sister who is a pharmacist it sounds like an extreme set of withdrawal symptoms and needs to be managed ( as others have said) by a good team including GP/Psychiatrist and in consultation with any mental health workers who know your daughter.  And if you dont have faith in your GP or psychiatrist then go and get new ones asap - if possible.  There is plenty of very ordinary care being given out there for one reason or another so dont mess about with anyone who seems to fit this bill.

It sounds like it would be very useful to gather all the members of the care team together for a case review so that everybody knows everything and can discuss options in real time.

Lindsay


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## Julia (29 December 2011)

sails said:


> Julia,
> 
> If you read my initial post on this subject, I am asking for help.  I have asked if anyone has come off this medication.  My daughter has become very ill and needs to come off this medication asap.  Insomnia is but one of the side effects of withdrawal.



I should have been more clear about the context of my comments about insomnia.
They were not in relation to insomnia experienced during withdrawal alone, but more in response to the links you have previously sent me via PM about people who have said they have had Seroquel prescribed for insomnia.

To me, prescribing such heavy duty antipsychotic medication for sleeplessness is unreasonable.  Given the symptoms described by these people, surely being a bit sleep deprived is more healthy than the effects of a medication absolutely not designed or indicated for such a condition.



> Shooting pains, involuntary muscle pains, brain zaps, severe and painful gastric upsets, uncontrollable shaking to name a few can hardly be put down to anxiety about sleep.



I hope this is now clarified above.




> Just because I expressed frustration that she has been given such a strong antipsychotic medication doesn't mean I want to have a massive dispute as to whose fault it is and neither do I have time for such an argument.



I do not usually disclose discussions held via PM or email and I don't intend to now, except to simply explain to others reading this thread that you and I have been communicating via email about your concerns for your daughter over some years and in particular regarding the Seroquel during the last week or two.

In the face of your apparently totally blaming the manufacturers of Seroquel for your daughter's distress, I've tried to point out that the problem is more the inappropriate prescribing of it by the GP, given your saying that your daughter has never shown any psychotic symptoms whatsoever.

These are very powerful medications and are designed for the control of the symptoms of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, not anxiety or depression.   

I have repeatedly suggested that the situation needs to be managed by a psychiatrist.  Others on this thread have said the same.

You've not agreed or disagreed about this but have indicated ongoing faith in the GP who has apparently caused the problem in the first place, and said you will wait until he gets back from holidays so you can further seek his advice.  Again, I've questioned that you should have such confidence in doing this.




> If someone is drowning, do lifesavers sit around to have an  argument as to how he got there while he continues to drown?  I am asking if anyone has got off this medication safely. I am looking for help from others who may have been through this.



I understand that you want to know if others have shared your experience.  You've already established this via the internet as I understand the links you've sent me.




> After nearly four years of supporting her and her girls through her depression, I am devastated that she has been given something that could give her permanent brain damage.



Of course you are.  It's an immensely worrying situation and I feel for you absolutely.   I've multiple times expressed my sympathy, concern and support to you over this.

And over the years I've often said how much I admire the way you take over the care of your granddaughters because their mother can't manage.

But, Sails, I think you're taking quite the wrong path on this by trying to manage the withdrawal yourself via comments from anonymous people on the internet.

If your daughter's condition has now deteriorated to the acutely ill state you describe, I'd be getting her to your hospital's A & E Department.  You live in an area with a major hospital which will have the appropriate psychiatric staff to make a proper assessment of your daughter's overall situation and manage it properly.




> My first priority is to learn as much as I can about this medication and how to get her off it as safely as possible. Is that too hard to understand?



Certainly not.  But you need professional advice and management, not comments that may or may not be valid from people who may or may not know what they're talking about, all of us here included.

Please, please, Sails, get your daughter to the hospital.


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## awg (29 December 2011)

Another thing I can observe is that imo it is absolutely critical to have access to a very experienced psychiatrist.  

One reason I say that is that Seroquel is sometimes prescribed in cases where elements of various Personality Disorders are diagnosed.

Personality Disorder is an unfortunate diagnosis, but must be clearly faced up too, if thats what the situation is, as treatment is fraught.

I believe most sufferers dont want to know, and practitioners are unwilling to formally diagnose 

I know nothing about your daughter, but some internet research will allow you to research the characteristics.

poor sleep issues are strongly correlated to poor mental health


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## sails (29 December 2011)

Thanks Lindsay for taking the time to ask you sister.  I am planning to check with some of the local pharmacists to see if they can offer any information.  

It seems that "original" symtoms are sometimes blamed for the withdrawal, and yet, those who have weathered it out find these withdrawal symptoms eventually subside  suggesting it is more to do with withdrawal of an extremely strong antipsychotic drug.    There are some who are left with Diabetes, Gastroparesis , Tardive Dyskinesia and other permanent nasties to varying degrees.  However it is mostly the lingering and severe insomnia that plagues so many who have come off it and this can last for months, even longer.

I have also been in touch with the Mental Health Critical Team here and have spoken to one of their staff.  He seems familiar with this type of withdrawal and understands that the severe insomnia needs to be addressed.   At this stage my daughter is not reducing this medication any further until we are satisfied we have good medical care.

Thanks again Lindsay.  And thanks AWG for your help - I am cross with myself for not researching this medication when it was first prescribed having trusted that it was medication she needed.  However back then, it seems that it was believed to be some sort of wonder drug with few side effects and no withdrawal so there was probably not much help out there at that time.


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## sails (29 December 2011)

Julia, I have spoken to the hospital and they generally do these withdrawals at home and only hospital if there are problems that cannot be handled at home.  The person I spoke to said he agrees that we need to deal with the antihistimine issues (Seroquel has a strong antihistimine component) which will also help with sleep issues and also ensure adequate sleep medication for short term use and this should enable her to come right off it.

Julia, I am not trying to treat this myself. The reduction in doses so far has been as per GP instructions and with the last reduction showing nasty side effects.  Because of those side effects, I simply want to be better informed and try to understand what to expect and how to insist on the best medical care.  It makes it easier for me to discuss when speaking on the phone to medical professions.  

I have found out some useful information from my intensive trawling on the internet, however, any suggestions have been typed up and will give it to her GP - and that include any supplements.  Her GP has already recommended omega3 to help protect the nervous system through this process.  

I will not be trying to manage anything myself, however, life experience has taught me that it is often beneficial to understand what is going on.  If she is treated for withdrawal at home, I will be staying at her place so I also need to have some idea of what is happening.  I do have nursing experience, but even with that, I am not trained in this area of psychiatric medicine and would never put my daughter at that sort of risk.

I absolutely agree that it would have been better that this medicine was never prescribed, however, the egg cannot be unscrambled.  My focus is to get her the best medical help I can and pray that she will come through it OK. 

So, she has put back the offending dose at this stage and the Critical Care professional said to try and get an urgent session with the GP before Friday as he feels she needs to get off this medication soon rather than hobbling along day after day with intermittent sleep which will leave her in a more exhausted state to come right off it.  I can't do any more than that as her GP is away on holidays and the hospital want him to deal with it first.


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## sails (29 December 2011)

awg said:


> Another thing I can observe is that imo it is absolutely critical to have access to a very experienced psychiatrist.
> 
> One reason I say that is that Seroquel is sometimes prescribed in cases where elements of various Personality Disorders are diagnosed.
> 
> ...




Thanks AWG.  She was coming off marijuana when she was first put on this medication, so it is possible that the mood swings from that withdrawal gave the impression of a bipolar or some other diagnosis.  I understand Seroquel is often used to help people come off illicit drugs, but it makes you wonder if it isn't somewhat self defeating in the longer term.

Once all the withdrawal symptoms have settled down, it is possible that there might be still some mental health disorder which will need help.  We can only wait and see on that one and hope she doesn't need anything else.  But the Seroquel is causing side effects now, so it has to go.

Agree with sleep deprivation causing mental health problems.  It is one of the reasons that sleep needs to be addressed while withdrawing from Seroquel as it's tough enough without enduring night after night with little or no sleep.


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## sails (29 December 2011)

Julia said:


> You've not agreed or disagreed about this but have indicated ongoing faith in the GP who has apparently caused the problem in the first place, and said you will wait until he gets back from holidays so you can further seek his advice.  Again, I've questioned that you should have such confidence in doing this.




Julia, you can't just rock up to a psychiatrist and demand to be seen.  You need a referral - surely you know that?  The GP has already discussed such a referral if needed.  However, before he went on holidays, the first reduction went OK. That doesn't make him incompetent.

I have also contacted the hospital and, as I have already explained, they prefer to do these withdrawals at home and hospital is only if required.

My daughter has improved somewhat from the bad withdrawal symptoms from the last 25mg drop when we put the medication back to the same level again.  While she is not great, she is resting as I have the children as necessary.

Please stop jumping to conclusions and trying to sort out something about which you clearly do not have all the facts.  By email you were far more interested in whom might be to blame for her being on it in the first place.  The fact is, she is on it and has to come off.  I don't care who is to blame, I just want her off safely and with proficient and experienced medical help.


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## sails (29 December 2011)

Gringotts Bank said:


> *Like most drugs, seroquel has a number of 'off label' uses, anxiety being a common one*....




Agree GB - this is what has shown up in my internet searches and that it is often being prescribed for insomnia and anxiety.  

I don't plan to respond for a while as I have a night off from caring for the girls and would really like to relax while I can and wish to thank all those who have been constructive and genuine in their posts. 

I will update when we have more information and will post the progress in the event it should help someone else in the future.


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## Julia (29 December 2011)

sails said:


> Julia, you can't just rock up to a psychiatrist and demand to be seen.  You need a referral - surely you know that?



Of course I know that.  But in your earlier post today you gave the impression that your daughter was in the throes of a really acute illness and if this were the case, then I'm sure hospital care with the appropriate psychiatric intervention would be made available.
It now seems that the situation is not as acute as I'd perceived from your post.



> Please stop jumping to conclusions and trying to sort out something about which you clearly do not have all the facts.



I'm not trying to 'sort anything out' other than to encourage you to attempt to have the situation properly managed by a competent psychiatrist.  awg has said the same. You berate me and thank him.  That's fine.



> By email you were far more interested in whom might be to blame for her being on it in the first place.  The fact is, she is on it and has to come off.  I don't care who is to blame, I just want her off safely and with proficient and experienced medical help.



No, I was not more interested in who might be to blame, other than to reiterate the point already made by others on this thread, i.e. these drugs should be prescribed and managed by appropriately experienced psychiatric professionals.  Mostly this does not include GPs.  
And yes, I've disagreed with you that the entire blame for your daughter's distress is to be laid at the door of the manufacturer of the drug.  I stand by that.

I'm glad to know you have sought advice from people experienced in dealing with the situation and, as always, wish you and your daughter a rapid resolution of the problem and a more healthy future.


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## sptrawler (29 December 2011)

I have only just read this post and it appears to me to be getting 'out there'.
I wouldn't think a stock forum, even in the general chat thread, is the forum to be looking for medical advice.


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## sails (30 December 2011)

Julia said:


> Of course I know that.  But in your earlier post today you gave the impression that your daughter was in the throes of a really acute illness and if this were the case, then I'm sure hospital care with the appropriate psychiatric intervention would be made available.
> It now seems that the situation is not as acute as I'd perceived from your post.




Julia, she was not doing well two days after she dropped down 25mg, however since putting the dose back up 25mg to the last level, she has improved over the last few days.  I'm sorry, but something like this can change daily and her symptoms of a few days ago have changed. This bad reaction to dropping the dose was quite unexpected and I have been advised that we did the best thing by restoring the dose to the last level until we could get qualified medical help.  This is what has caused the improvement in the last few days, and although it has left her with some insomnia, the searing head pain has reduced to a dull headache.

I now have her registered with the Critical Care team here and that makes it easier to call if we need help urgently or just need to speak with a medical professional.  



> I'm not trying to 'sort anything out' other than to encourage you to attempt to have the situation properly managed by a competent psychiatrist.  awg has said the same. You berate me and thank him.  That's fine.




AWG also said many other things for which I thanked him.  If I knew of a competent psychiatrist who fully understood withdrawal from this medication, I would do whatever was necessary to get there.  However, reading the stories of so many people, it seems that many psychiatrists still believe this drug doesn't have withdrawal and so there is a risk of further medications being added to "treat" the apparent psychosis caused by withdrawal.  I don't know how to find such a good professional.  The last psychiatrist of several years ago had her on such mind bending medication that her eyes were rolling to the back of her head.  This was to help her through a marriage breakdown and she had the care of her eldest child who was then around 5 years old. I phoned her GP (different one) and she agreed it was way to much of an overkill and suggested stopping the medication.  We never went back to that psychiatrist. I lost a fair bit of confidence in psychiatrists so far, however, I am sure there must be some excellent ones out there. 

Thankfully, the professional with whom I spoke yesterday was very aware and confirmed much of what I had learned from my internet searching was correct.  I don't know how else I could learn this information and get insight as to what really happens.  When people blog their withdrawal journey over several weeks, it does give a pretty good insight as to how it can affect people in different ways.  I like to know to be prepared in advance for what might be thrown at us.  The fact I had become quite familiar with other people's withdrawal experiences made it much easier to ask questions and have an intelligent discussion when speaking with professionals.




> No, I was not more interested in who might be to blame, other than to reiterate the point already made by others on this thread, i.e. these drugs should be prescribed and managed by appropriately experienced psychiatric professionals.  Mostly this does not include GPs.




I agree with you.  I don't understand why GPs are allowed to prescribe drugs of this nature - surely it should be reserved for experienced psychiatric professionals AND, imo, should be a last resort medication.  I do acknowledge that there are some people whose brain chemicals are through the roof and they may need something as strong as this to give them some semblence of normal life.



> And yes, I've disagreed with you that the entire blame for your daughter's distress is to be laid at the door of the manufacturer of the drug.  I stand by that.




No, I don't put the entire blame on the manuracturer of the drug.  However, this "off label" use for anxiety and insomnia seems irresponsible - but who is fully to blame, I don't know.  I understand the manufacturer reels in around $4.5 billion per year from this drug alone.  Surely that suggests that it is being used far more widely than it should be.  I really don't care who is to blame, but I do take objection to your statement that I place the ENTIRE blame on the drug manufacturer simply because I expressed my initial outrage and frustration.

Drug manufacturers have their place and they have developed life saving medications.  I do not write them off.  I am simply very disappointed that this drug is being used/sold for purposes that it might not be intended.  It is not my place to do an inquiry to find out who should take responsibility for so many lives.  I do know that Astra Zeneca has had some law suits over Seroquel because people have been unaware of the side effects - here's a link:  http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/seroquel-951/



> I'm glad to know you have sought advice from people experienced in dealing with the situation and, as always, wish you and your daughter a rapid resolution of the problem and a more healthy future.




Thanks Julia.  I really don't want to argue over this as I have enough on my plate as it is.


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## sails (30 December 2011)

sptrawler said:


> I have only just read this post and it appears to me to be getting 'out there'.
> I wouldn't think a stock forum, even in the general chat thread, is the forum to be looking for medical advice.




SP, I'm not looking for medical advice.  I am interested if anyone has had experience or knows of anyone who has come off this medication.  We get medical advice from professionals, but it also helps to get a general understanding of what we might be in for getting her off this medication and to be able to communicate with those who understand.

I have received PMs where perhaps people feel more comfortable in sharing their experience privately rather than risk attacks from other posters.  I appreciate the information from these PMs and is the reason I asked the question. 

I know you think it shouldn't be on a stock market forum, but sadly, traders and their family/friends are not exempt from depression.


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## sails (30 December 2011)

Have just found out that this medication is available online without a prescription...


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## Logique (1 January 2012)

The nationally broadcast ABC radio program thought it was a good idea to play 'Tenterfield Saddler' by Peter Allen (and similar such) at 3am this morning. Do they do this deliberately? 

As the new year is ushered in, and at 'suicide hour', is it too much trouble to play something appropriately cheerful? Insensitive clots.  Late home and only tuned in by mistake, never again.


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## sails (7 January 2012)

> A three-year investigation led by the attorneys general of Florida and Illinois found that AstraZeneca also failed to properly disclose possible side effects, including weight gain, hyperglycemia, diabetes and cardiovascular complications.
> 
> Under the settlement, AstraZeneca agreed to not market the drug in a misleading manner or for unapproved uses and to provide accurate responses to requests about off-label usage, Harris said. The company must also enact policies to ensure that no financial incentives are given to sales representatives for unapproved marketing, and it must post on a website any payments made to physicians.
> 
> Last April the company reached a $520-million settlement with the U.S. government, also over allegations that it marketed Seroquel for off-label uses. California received $31 million of that settlement.




Read more from the LA Times March 11, 2011|By Stephen Ceasar:
AstraZeneca to pay $68.5 million in Seroquel settlement

and



> "This is very worrisome; frankly I have serious concerns about these drugs," says Dr. Steven Nissen, who is chairman of the Cleveland Clinic's cardiovascular medicine department and serves as an ad hoc advisor for FDA panels. Studies point to a "very questionable balance between efficacy and safety" for the class, he said. But that message, he said, *has been lost in an apparent "marketing bonanza" for the companies that make the medications. A recent report by the consulting firm Decision Resources found the makers of the atypicals spent $993 million in 2006 to promote the drugs to doctors and patients.*




Read more:
Use of atypical antipsychotics for lesser disorders is gaining ground, despite safety concerns


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## Smurf1976 (7 January 2012)

This is the most difficult post I have ever made on ASF. Please bear with me...

I have found out a few hours ago that a work colleague has had some sort of mental breakdown. According to family, verbal comments are along the lines that they hate their job / workplace / employer, hate life, have nothing to live for and hate pretty much everything. I'm not sure if they have specifically mentioned friends / family in that context or named any specific individuals.

I really only know them through work, and in that context a few points are very clear. They are absolutely the standout performer amongst those employed in that job. Easily the most productive, the most professional and reliable etc. He's the type of person where you think that if a promotion opportunity came along, well then he's the obvious first choice to offer it to. And the thing is, most of the other staff would actually agree on that point. 

As his immediate supervisor, we do have formal performance reviews etc as well as casual conversations and I have frequently mentioned this aspect of his work and expressed concern that it may be unreasonable, expecting too much etc. Such concerns are promptly, usually quite bluntly, dismissed with the usual words being "not at all".

Other notable points about his behaviour that I;ve noticed are as follows. I really don't know how much if any of this is relevant but I thought I'd post it.

Seems to be unusually well balanced personally. Highly intelligent, good with computers etc at one end, but also seems to be good with the ladies and likes sport and partying at the other end. Couldn't really be pigeon holed in the stereotypical nerd vs sportsman type way.

Is forever a "yo-yo" dieter. Lose weight then gain it again. Rinse and repeat.

Periodically decides to go on some sort of "detox" and give up alcohol, unhealthy foods etc. A few weeks later will go out on the town and get very drunk.

Seems unable to save money. Earns $80K a year and has no significant savings or assets that I know of. I suspect he'd have trouble finding $1000 cash in a hurry if it were needed without borrowing.

Has a number of "plans" which are frequently revived but never acted upon and then abandoned again. The primary one is buying land and being an owner builder - has been talking about it for years but never goes beyond talk.

Always seems excessively tired, including when working only normal hours. Also gets regular headaches.

Seems to always be doing things for others on the weekend. Building work, moving houses, fixing cars etc. That sort of thing.

He used to have a major interest in cars. Modifying them, tinkering, increasing the power output of the engine etc. This sort of thing pretty much was his life for quite some time. But at the moment doesn't actually have any running, registered car at all so far as I know and it's been like that for a while now. 

Makes comments about health risks etc which seem rather odd. Eg if someone casually raises the controversial issue about radiation from mobile phones being a health hazard, he will respond by saying he sleeps with it under the pillow. Things like that - it doesn't seem a rational response.

Constantly buying new things. Mobile phones (we're talking about a new one every few months), cars, household items etc. Rapidly loses interest in the new item and wants another new one - eg bought a new phone roughly 3 months ago and within a few weeks had decided it was "crap" and wanted a different one.

Had a recent health scare (heart related) and resolved to eat healthy food, not drink alcohol, exercise etc. Stuck to it religiously at first but has since returned to eating junk food (corn chips etc) and very heavy drinking over the Christmas - New Year period. Surely their doctor would have advised to not do these things? 

Personal details: 26 years old, male, single, no kids.

All the above examples are just things that I can think of in hindsight. I never paid much attention at the time, but now that he's had a breakdown and thinking back there would seem to be some behaviour - related alarm bells that have been ringing for quite a while. Or at least that's how it looks to me, bearing in mind that I know nothing about this sort of thing beyond what I've read on the 'net over the past few hours.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I have no idea what to do now. Do I call? Go around and knock on the door? Keep well away? Am I partly to blame for allowing someone to perform well above average at work? Should I have prevented this from occurring? So many questions and I'm way out of my depth here...


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## cynic (8 January 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is the most difficult post I have ever made on ASF. Please bear with me...







Smurf1976 said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on this? I have no idea what to do now. Do I call? Go around and knock on the door? Keep well away? Am I partly to blame for allowing someone to perform well above average at work? Should I have prevented this from occurring? So many questions and I'm way out of my depth here...





Also a very difficult post to answer. 

I'd like to share a few of my thoughts just the same. (Disclaimer: I have no tertiary qualifications whatsoever, but have experience of a few things that just might relate to the situation you've described. These are my opinions only and need to be considered within that context).

Firstly, you are not to blame for what has happened. Your colleague whilst unfortunate to be in the midst of such a life challenging crisis has at least one thing working in his favour, namely, he has a compassionate supervisor who's sincerely interested in assisting in any way he's reasonably able.

Secondly, the over achieving champion of the workplace wanted to be so because doing for others was his way of making himself feel worthwhile and important in life. He wanted to mean something to others in order to compensate for a deeper sense of worthlessness/failure and/or insecurity, hence his constant desire to continually overachieve. This was his way of trying to prove his worth to himself and the world in general.

Thirdly, this purportedly healthy diet (I'm guessing that he consumed little or no salt throughout) and exercise regime that he underwent (whilst good in some respects ) may have exacerbated an undiagnosed chronic illness. Frequent headaches, depression, sleep disorders and temperature sensitivity, are several common symptoms of a range of serious physical health disorders/diseases. I believe that a thorough medical examination would reveal (amongst other things) thyroid dysfunction.On this note please bear in mind that the more popular pathology tests in use today are renowned for failing to detect thyroid dysfunction/irregularities.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the Canadian definition of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis & CFS the reason being that I strongly suspect that your colleague is displaying a number of classic symptoms of this (or similar) illness.

Fourthly, the fact that he's a young single adult with no children, might have contributed to his sense of being less than complete in his life. Christmas/New Year festivities etcetera often rub salt into this emotional wound. Witnessing people celebrating these events in the arms of their beloved partners and/or children can often give rise to feelings such as isolation,not belonging and not counting for anything (in the game of life). I've often heard questions of self doubt like "am I not good enough" or "what's wrong with me" from single adults during the festive season. On top of all this when one takes into account the custom of making new years resolutions and the contemplation of one's life (past/present/ and future) that ensues, one can readily understand how easily a deep sense of despair can arise in anyone whose life feels less than complete. 


Finally, how does one approach this precarious situation? I would recommend that you establish a rapport with a family member through whom you can carefully convey a simple message of good will rather than using the direct approach. (If you suspect ME/CFS or that some other health related illness might be a factor, then tactfully broaching the subject with a trustworthy family member might also be worth considering.)
His self esteem is almost certainly at an extreme low. He's probably grappling with a sense of failure in life in general and probably feels that all that he is and all that he can ever do is insufficient to achieve acceptance and belonging in this world. Any statement about his importance to the workplace might be misconstrued as further demands - demands that he no longer feels capable of meeting. Conversely any statement about sharing the workload more fairly in future may also be misinterpreted as a judgement of inefficacy (even though you don't see it or express it that way, he'll still be his own harshest critic.).Maybe consider mentioning how impressed you are by the extraordinary levels of determination that he's demonstrated in the time you've known him.
I would recommend obtaining some guidance from a reputable psychologist prior to attempting contact (whether direct or via his family) as such guidance may save you from making an innocent (and regrettable) mistake in the conveyance of your good intentions.


Your colleague, his family and yourself have my utmot sympathy as I believe I can readily imagine just how emotionally demanding this situation is.


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## Julia (8 January 2012)

Smurf, I'm very sorry to hear about your colleague.  Such a situation is distressing and bewildering to the person concerned and all around him.

You don't say whether he is hospitalised, or indeed receiving medical/psychiatric care.
On the assumption that he is, or that his family if he has one, is arranging this, my suggestion would be that you essentially stay away from involving yourself in the details of exactly what's wrong with him.  That's for his medical advisers to sort out.


If it's feasible to reassure him that his job will be there for him when he feels able to work, whilst - as Cynic says - ensuring there's not a sense of pressure for him to do this, that would probably help him.   You're obviously concerned and will naturally show him the sort of basic kindness and support someone in such a situation so needs.

He'll probably be embarrassed also, so if you're able to just reassure him about matters like sick leave, etc without getting too much into the whole psychological falling apart, that's probably going to be more comfortable for someone who obviously places a great deal of importance on being a top achiever.

Most importantly, Smurf, what has happened to this young man has probably been fomenting for some time and is certainly not your fault.

Possibly your other responsibility might be (after you've clarified the situation yourself re how long he might be off work etc) to talk to the rest of the staff, not in any detail about the person's illness but just a brief explanation as to his absence, and encouragement for any of them who are friends to be as calm and supportive as they feel able.

Good luck.  You're a very sensible person.  You'll handle it better than many.


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## Logique (8 January 2012)

I don't have any qualifications, but the two posts above cover it for me. Smurf if you're on the guy's side then stay there, but I wouldn't intrude any further, unless requested. Reassuring him to take his time and there's a job waiting for him, would mean a lot. 

His psychological state could be from childhood issues or any number of unknown causes, or even private drug use. Hopefully his consulting physicians will track it all down.


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## johenmo (8 January 2012)

Smurf - I suspect part of the issue is he's trying to achieve so much to please others (expectations, etc).  This is very complicated and family will play an important part.  One of the biggest challenges will be convincing him it's ok to achieve less and, importantly, to say no.  A great way to get out of doing things for others came from "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" is by saying "sorry, I already have another commitment" - and the commitment is to yourself.  Lots of stuff from the others echoes what i would have said but reducing the pleasing others is key - you mention he's always doing things for others.  

Burnout/overload/stress can give all/most of what you have listed & when one learns to shed some of the excesses and not worry, then one makes great strides forward.  Trust me on this one!!  

If your relationship is good enough that you can listen to him, then do so.  Use the family to gauge how to approach him.  It may be best done via his best mate - each person is different.

For the future, always be aware of just how many hours people are putting in - I have had to curb the hours of some of my direct reports on a number of occasions. 

Good luck to you and him.


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## Gringotts Bank (8 January 2012)

Smurf, firstly it's not your fault, and secondly _it's actually not a big deal!!_  Even if he tried to harm himself... even if he's lying catatonic in a psychiatric ward dosed up to his eyeballs, he will actually be fine once he gets a bit of treatment.  You'll be surprised to see how quickly he bounces back to his old self.  Then it's just a matter of letting him do his treatment and working on finding a way to let go of old negative beliefs.  Perfectionist workaholic behaviour is just a cover for a subconscious script which says: "I'm not lovable as I am, but if I perform exceptionally well, and if I fix your car for free, perhaps you will like me".  The gadget addiction is simply a coping mechanism.  The short term pleasure of having a new toy distracts him from painful thoughts and feelings.  Again this is not a big deal.  Everyone has hidden anxieties similar to this, in varying degrees, and similar ways of coping.  His anxiety is just a souped up version of common garden insecurities.

The only mistake you can make is to be overly serious and concerned about it.  Be respectful and caring and present, but forget about the "serious concern" part.  It will just aggravate his condition.


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## Smurf1976 (8 January 2012)

A huge thank you to everyone for your comments. We often have disagreements on ASF about the markets, politics etc but there are a lot of very genuine and knowledgeable people on this forum. Thank you.

Last time I knew (yesterday afternoon) he was at home with family and they were going to arrange some sort of professional help. But of course that hasn't stopped me worrying about it - I went to bed thinking about it and woke up this morning already doing the same. 

After reading everyone's comments, I am going to talk to his family (on the phone) this afternoon and point them in the direction of ASF and this thread as there is a lot of good advice here. I don't expect to talk to the affected person directly, as I think this may not be helpful, but I will make the offer via his family to do anything and everything I can to help and let them decide what that should involve.

With regards to work, I went in this morning and checked leave balances etc. In the short term he has sick leave on full pay, after that there is a longer period of sick leave available at half pay. So for the foreseeable future there is a job there when he returns. I will inform his family of the actual figures once I verify them with the HR section.

In terms of working hours etc, obviously I have a tendency to ask myself if I've caused this in some way but the comments of people here suggest otherwise. Virtually all of the overtime we do is voluntary (but paid) in that it is not time critical. That is, the job can be done this week, next week or the week after that and it doesn't really matter as long as it does get done (but must be after hours for operational reasons). In short, it's electrical maintenance type work.

I've always pushed the point that nobody is being forced, feeling confident that sooner or later enough people will put their hands up voluntarily and the job will get done so there's no reason to push anyone. This has always worked in the past - some people do more than others by choice but it's never really been an issue.

Perhaps I need to make this point a little more clearly, but it's something I've said practically every time I ask if anyone wants to work after hours this week. There's one person who never says yes, and it hasn't harmed his career in any way so I think the message ought to be out there - there isn't a gun being held to anyone's head forcing them to work nights or weekends.

Realistically though, given the chronic tiredness etc I think the weekend things he does are likely to be a much bigger issue than paid working hours. Thinking about it, Mondays are clearly his worst day which does point toward doing too much on the weekend - and by that I mean with friends etc not paid work.

Thanks everyone. Any further comments are certainly welcome.


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## Smurf1976 (8 January 2012)

I have contacted his family a short time ago. Apparently there has been a modest improvement but he will be seeing a professional tomorrow.

I have pointed family in the direction of this thread.

Now that I know a bit more about it, I'm thinking that some of the things which seemed "unusual" to me (in hindsight) may not be relevant but that some probably are. I mean, there's plenty of people who don't regularly save money and there's no law saying you have to. That one might reflect a personal bias on my part more than anything else since I've always been a saver by nature. But some of the others may be relevant as others have commented in following posts.

Let's hope for the best.


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## Chris45 (8 January 2012)

Cheek Tweaks can help with depression.

Smiling releases antidepressant hormones such as serotonin. Serotonin is a brain chemical that activates nerve cells in the brain and plays a major role in regulating our mood. Many researchers believe that an imbalance in serotonin levels in the brain may influence mood in a way that leads to depression. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are the most commonly prescribed type of antidepressant medicines and researchers believe that the SSRI medications relieve depression by making more serotonin available to activate nerve cells.

A few years ago, some researchers at U.Q. discovered that contracting the right-hand cheek muscles stimulates the release of serotonin in the left brain hemisphere and improves mood. They found that the best technique for stimulating the release of serotonin was to start with a big wide smile then let the left side cheek muscles relax so that your mouth is twisted across to your right side. Hold this position for at least thirty seconds while thinking some happy thoughts, or simply counting happy images in your head to block the negative thoughts and allow the serotonin to do its thing. I call this a "Cheek Tweak".

The effect is subtle, so don't expect a rush like a drug hit, but do it regularly, and initially twice a day for at least a week, and you should start to feel a significant improvement in your mood which will help you avoid depression. Do it in front of a mirror and you'll probably get a good laugh from how stupid you look so it's probably best done in private.

Every time I feel myself starting to spiral down into a bad mood, I do a quick Cheek Tweak and the bad mood vanishes. I recommend you give it a try.


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## Julia (8 January 2012)

Smurf, glad to hear that the family seem to have things under control.

I think it's wise of you to remain at arm's length, whilst of course being as helpful and informative as you suggest re advice on sick leave and reassurance of his job continuing to be there.

As his supervisor, to get too personally involved in the emotional aspect could make it difficult for the working relationship when he returns to work imo.

Hopefully friends and family will leave the psychological counselling to those properly qualified to provide this.

He's fortunate in having a supportive and sensible boss.  Goodonya.


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## awg (9 January 2012)

Hi Smurf, here are my opinions

your description is similar to what I have seen in people suffering bi-polar disorder, especially prior to diagnosis.

I have come across some that are VERY high functioning.

It has been my observation that shiftwork is a trigger for this condition.
(u didnt say if shiftwork is involved)

Nothwithstanding the serious nature of this illness, many can be rehabilitated to their former work positions, once they are diagnosed and treated.

He is fortunate indeed to have an understanding supervisor.

Despite some peoples reluctance, I always stress the need for an experienced psychiatrist to make a full evaluation. Do you get your auto transmission rebuilt by the local garage mechanic...no, you take it to an auto tranny specialist.

Medication for bi-polar and unipolar depression are different, incorrect medication will often exarcebate the condition

I adamantly do not believe that such illness should be diagnosed by GP alone, which is not to say he may not have bad experience or mis-diagnosis by psychiatrist..he should try and find one that has been trained in the Australian Mental Health sytem.
They may be hard to find, and have a months long waiting list. He needs a referal from a GP

A very experienced psychologist is the best adjunct to a GP, if no psychaitrist is engaged, a Medicare rebate is in place. 

The average time of symptom onset to diagnosis is about 10 years for bi-polar.

You seem to be a kind fellow, and I am certain that he will remember that, but there is only so much you can do, I doubt he would favor you diagnosing him, if your organistation has a HR section, they take over long-term health cases ( which can be bad, as the care you showed may be lost)

Although it can be "dangerous" to look at, markers of all mental conditions detailed in DSMIV are outlined on the internet


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## johenmo (13 January 2012)

awg said:


> ...if your organistation has a HR section, they take over long-term health cases ( which can be bad, as the care you showed may be lost)...




Interesting comment.  In all my years in all the companies the number of HR people I have met who truly have a soul I can count on one hand.  Maybe a form of self-protection??


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## Smurf1976 (13 January 2012)

Just a brief update (thanks everyone for your comments).

1. The affected person is now receiving professional treatment. I don't know exactly what this involves, but he is in the hands of properly qualified people.

2. I wish to stress the point that whilst I pointed his family to this thread hoping to help them in some way, I most certainly haven't alerted the affected person to it. My aim is to try and assist the situation in any way I can, and my thinking is that hearing the experiences of others would be useful reassurance for family members. I'm not sure if I've actually helped or not, but that was certainly my intention.

I'm going to call his family over the weekend and see how it's going. As for work, the HR section doesn't know yet but I can't really avoid alerting them next week.


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## Smurf1976 (15 January 2012)

Spoke with the affected person on the phone a few hours ago and there has been a noticeable improvement.

It's hard to describe just how happy I am about this. It feels really strange but it is, well, the best news I've had in a very long time.

I still don't understand how it all happens. Down in a big way and now back up again. But if he's getting better then that's just, well, as I said it's the best thing I've heard in a long time.


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## sptrawler (16 January 2012)

Smurf1976 said:


> I have contacted his family a short time ago. Apparently there has been a modest improvement but he will be seeing a professional tomorrow.
> 
> I have pointed family in the direction of this thread.
> 
> ...




Not being funny smurph, but maybe the guy has reached his level of incompetence.
Everyone tries to improve their position, then sometimes reach a position they find difficult to manage.
This then in turn brings on a state of panic as they are highly motivated and don't want to fail.
It is very hard to rewind the situation. I have seen it happen a few times, fortunatelly they came to terms with it and readjusted their lives.


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## Tink (16 January 2012)

Good to hear Smurf.

I do believe having a good support network (family and friends) would help a great deal in these situations, ontop of the professional side.


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## sails (28 January 2012)

Just an update:

My daughter has now been seroquel free for 14 days.  The doctor was interested in the research I had done and could see the sense in stopping the medication cold turkey (due to unacceptable side effects when attempting to taper off slowly) and treating the withdrawal side effects.

He gave her Periactin which is sedating antihistimine, mild anticholinergic, helps prevent headache, anti sweating and is anti nausea all of which have been known to be withdrawal effects of seroquel.

She suffered shocking headache around her forehead for several days - that is now easing. She has also had severe back pain, but she also had that while she was on seroquel.  Her ankle has been playing up again - and that was diagnosed as pseudo gout as per a lab report and the cause was seroquel. 

I think we are through the worst now, but my research tells me that time is the biggest factor in this and while many others have found the recovery time to be something akin to a roller coaster ride, it can take weeks/months to fully recover.


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## lindsayf (29 January 2012)

Glad to hear that she is making some progress and that you have some confidence in the care team.  It is so important for the patient to have a proactive advocate isnt it!


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## Muschu (29 January 2012)

Hi Sails

More than pleased to hear of the progress.  You are working through a maze with much love and dedication.

Rick


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## sails (29 January 2012)

lindsayf said:


> Glad to hear that she is making some progress and that you have some confidence in the care team.  It is so important for the patient to have a proactive advocate isnt it!




Thanks for the kind words, Lindsayf...

  I do think support is vital although I have read many accounts of seroquel withdrawal where they don't have help and have survived.  Their strength and courage are truly inspirational.

Not all survive though.  There is a forum out there on seroquel coma/death where many have expressed their desire to end it all.  Sadly, one of the side effects of seroquel is suicide risk.  I have slept with two phones by my bed for the last two weeks which, thankfully, has only been needed once during the first week of withdrawal.  I made the decision to bring her next dose of antihistimines forward a little plus take a 5mg valium which was given for this type of situation.   I recognised these symptoms of utter despair being a normal part of that stage of withdrawal - but it was severe.  That put her to sleep and she slept well for the remainder of the night. Thankfully, valium has been kept under control, however, I believe it has also helped to spare her from serious and sometimes permanent neurological side effects from seroquel and it's withdrawal.  Valium withdrawal will follow, however, that will be tapered very, very slowly. 




Muschu said:


> Hi Sails
> 
> More than pleased to hear of the progress.  You are working through a maze with much love and dedication.
> 
> Rick




Thanks Rick...  Yes, a maze describes it perfectly.  Each day and each new symptom has brought uncertaintity and the most anxious time was during that first week. I am finding I am now incredibly tired - I think it is the sense of relief that we are over that dreaded first week which certainly did present some challenges and a lot of physical pain for my daughter.  

I still remain alert as it's early days yet and the Periactin antihistime needs to be slowly tapered off which will gradually force her own histimine and serotonin receptors to start kicking in again after nearly four years of being tranquilised.  I suspect anticholinergic medication will be required for a bit longer as she has had some difficulty with tremors and a nasty scare with involuntary twitching of muscles which settled down with the addition of anticholinergic medication.

Yes, a maze it is.  Very complex and yet the doctor read out of the screed on his screen (presumably from AstraZeneca) that gives about three sentences on seroquel withdrawal.  I asked the doctor if AZ has actually done any trials on the best form of withdrawal and he didnt know.  Surely withdrawal trials and advice should be a mandatory requirement before mind bending medications are let loose for off label use such as insomnia and anxiety.

Thankfully, her GP was sensible enough to realise that his little paragraph on withdrawal from AZ had little to do with the very real and unpleasant withdrawal symptoms being experienced by real people in the real world.  He took note of my well prepared and summarised notes that I had gleaned from thousands of other people's experiences.


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## Julia (29 January 2012)

Sounds as though you're through the worst, Sails.   Well done and best wishes for a full recovery.


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## sails (29 January 2012)

Julia said:


> Sounds as though you're through the worst, Sails.   Well done and best wishes for a full recovery.




Yes, thanks Julia, we are certainly hoping the worst is behind us.  Those that have travelled this road before us and blogged their experience show that strange things can continue to happen for a few weeks/months after completely quitting. Painful and burning feet is the latest annoying factor that kept her awake last night.  Hopefully it will pass as quickly as it came.


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## Tyler Durden (16 August 2014)

I just wanted to bring this thread back to life given what has happened recently with Robin Williams.

I think it's kinda sad that we, as a society and in general, and largely influenced by the media, only give attention to depression when someone famous dies. It's almost like everyone focuses on how sad it was that the person died, and how great of a person they were, but no one looks forward to ask how we can prevent/treat this, or look around us and wonder who amongst our friends have it.

I'm going to be honest and say I have it. Sometimes it comes out of nowhere, and for no reason I feel, to say the least, sad. But it's so much more than that. It's having negative thoughts all the time. It's having that feeling behind your eyeballs as if they're going to explode into tears for no apparent reason. It's like feeling all alone with nothing to live for even though you may have plenty of friends and a bright future.

My friends don't suspect a thing, but sometimes I wonder about how they'd react if I died - "we never knew, he always seemed so happy". I think a keen observer would pick it up if they closely watched what I did, but in reality, not too many people care. Everyone only comes forward when you die.

So I guess the point of me bringing this up is to ask two things of you:

1. Give serious thought to whether those around you may suffer from depression. It's easy to think "Bob? Nah, he's way too chirpy to have depression", but sometimes it's the ones we expect the least.

2. If you knew someone had depression, what would you do? If you were with Robin Williams shortly before he died and knew his mental state, what could you have done?


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## SirRumpole (16 August 2014)

> 2. If you knew someone had depression, what would you do? If you were with Robin Williams shortly before he died and knew his mental state, what could you have done?




Hard to say without knowing all the circumstances. Keep him talking and get him to a hospital ASAP. Or if there was some alcohol around keep pouring it into him until he falls over drunk and then get him to hospital.

I hope you are getting some help Tyler. The fact that you are posting here indicates that you can get your thoughts in order.

That doesn't apply to a lot of people with the same problem.

I hope you can work it out.


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## sptrawler (16 August 2014)

Tyler Durden said:


> My friends don't suspect a thing, but sometimes I wonder about how they'd react if I died - "we never knew, he always seemed so happy". I think a keen observer would pick it up if they closely watched what I did, but in reality, not too many people care. Everyone only comes forward when you die.
> 
> So I guess the point of me bringing this up is to ask two things of you:
> 
> ...




Tyler I think we all go through these periods, I remember a traumatic period in my life, when I didn't have a number 2's for two weeks. Trust me it wasn't a nice experience.

What I have learnt over my life is, most of the depression is brought on by a feeling of failure.
Most of the feeling of failure is applied from outside sources.
We live in a materialistic time, where worth is measured by examples of material ownership. It has been a great capitalist and advertising success.

The best way I found to not feel overwhelmed, was to set my own goals, set them realistically and achievable.
After a time, you find you are exceeding them.
Always keep your self esteem, that is really important. I don't mean be arrogant, but don't let people put you down.

With regards Robin Williams, who knows his position?
At the end everyone has a choice, he made his.


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## burglar (16 August 2014)

Tyler Durden said:


> ... what could you have done?




Not the kind of thing one blabs about, 
but I sometimes drop it in conversation.
I am so surprised at the positive responses. 
From "Me too." to "So-and-so has it."

My uncle had it, I never knew just what to do.
I'd pop my head around the door post.
I'd ask how he was?

What was he watching?

Wait for a response ... 





Now, I have been depressed too.
Well, it is magic for me. 
So I believe that maybe it was magic for him too.


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## Julia (16 August 2014)

Tyler, one of the best posts I've ever read on this forum.  Thank you.

You're so right about the public masks that so many of us present to even those closest to us.
Part of it is, I suspect, a version of the philosophy of 'fake it till you make it', something that really does work for someone not totally overcome by an overwhelming sense of hopelessness.

Having lost two people I loved to suicide, and two friends also, it took some time and much listening to understand the desperation that finally drove them to end their lives.  When you discover them dead there's no escape from the thought "couldn't I have done more to help?"

One of the confusing aspects of depression and suicide is that shortly before someone kills themselves, they appear almost happy:  calm, interested in you rather than themselves.  The answer a psychologist offered me for this was that they have finally made up their mind to end their lives, have made a plan, and are experiencing a sense of relief that there will be a clear end to their suffering.

Tyler, I don't know what to say in answer to how you're feeling.  Everyone responds differently to sadness.
You're an intelligent and aware individual and you'll be aware of 'helping' options.  Whether they are useful or not I don't know.   Just one observation I'd like to make is that of the whole forum you have probably come up with more interesting and thoughtful thread starters than most of us put together, something I really appreciate.

I so hope you can bring that same thoughtfulness and insight to your own situation.  I know how much easier that is to say than to do.   One further thought:  given the state of our world and the more localised atmosphere of aggression and anger, it's possible that a sense of sadness and depression is simply realistic.

I ask anyone thinking of jumping on me for offering this as an alternative to seeking professional help to just not do it.   Imo there are times when sadness and depression is an entirely rational state of mind.


----------



## bellenuit (16 August 2014)

I don't know anyone who has disclosed to me that they have depression, so I am not someone that can offer advice. However, when reading about the death of Robin Williams a few days back, I came across this letter from Stephen Fry to a lady with depression and who had asked him for help. It seems to me that it could be of help to many sufferers.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2009/10/it-will-be-sunny-one-day.html


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## Trevor_S (28 August 2014)

Tyler Durden said:


> I just wanted to bring this thread back to life given what has happened recently with Robin Williams.
> 
> I think it's kinda sad that we, as a society and in general, and largely influenced by the media, only give attention to depression when someone famous dies. It's almost like everyone focuses on how sad it was that the person died, and how great of a person they were, but no one looks forward to ask how we can prevent/treat this, or look around us and wonder who amongst our friends have it.
> 
> ...



I suffer from it,  a good curative for me was living in Cambodia for a year and volunteering because now what brings me out of it is guilt &  hopefully that will continue to work for me. 

I came across this some time ago and it resonated with me as well, in reference to the above. 

http://youtu.be/mUQuaTE-x8o

Unfortunately, what works for one often doesn't work for another. It does seem endemic in the developed world, so while I do understand the bit about a chemical imbalance,  I still think there is a link to afluenza.


----------



## Baldric (29 August 2014)

As a someone who has suffered depressive episodes in the past I will share what I have found. This is what works for me and and by no means is the full solution to the problem.

Get it diagnosed by a professional. Speak to a psychologist and if required a psychiatrist.

Use the meds if they prescribe them. They help you get back on track and you can work out your non meds strategy far better than when in a depressive state.

Get a non meds strategy to overcome the depression. This is often doing one positive thing each day which makes you feel better about yourself.

Work out what your triggers are. I had my first diagnosed depression about 25 years ago. I realised then that I had been through this before. Now I know when I am heading that way and put my diversion strategy in place.

Talk to professionals, your friends will soon tire of hearing you talk. True friends will ask you and will engage in a meaningful conversation with you.

Never feel that you are alone. There is always someone who will help you.

I still have my ups and downs but the lows are not as low and are of shorter duration. I was only on the meds for that first diagnosed episode and not since then. They do help, but they do have side effects and you have to be on them for a while and then you have to get off them, this takes time.


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## wayneL (24 September 2014)

A few months ago I picked  up a new client a dressage rider whose husband hed her horses for me as I worked on them. We had  a good rapport and  chatted about all sorts of stuff. He was Submariner in the navy and regaled me of amazing stories of his experiences under the waves.

Eventually about 4 weeks ago, he shared with me that he was actually suffering PTSD (**** goes on down there), depression and an alchoholic in  remission. It was actually the first time anyone shared any such thing and he explained it was part of his therapy, to share his  condition, so long as he trusted the person.

I was actually quite honoured as he is someone I have grown to highly respect over the months.

Anyway during the conversation he looked at me straight in  the eye and said "I reckon I can tell a depressive, no matter how bright and happy they  seem. After a few moments the conversation  carried on...

Something about how he said that, played on my mind. Did he see something in  me? Nah I thought, I'm not depressed.

I thought about it for a while.  I thought clinical depression was extremely debilitating,  like Brad has detailed in  starting this thread... and certainly confirmed by others as this thread has progressed.

Yet, for the most part, I have been living a pretty joyless  existence for some years now.  Oh sure, I can smile,  share a  joke,  fake a laugh, people think I'm a jolly good fellow, except it was fake. To  avoid being alone with my thoughts, I'd argue  and  read crap on the interwebs, drink too much... anything but just be alone with me. And then there are the social phobias, the telephone is an object of fear in my world, amongst other things.

My friends words still playing on my mind, secretly, I booked in to see a psych wanting only one question  answered - How does one know if they are depressed or just experiencing sadness that everone deals with from time to time. at the end of the session he  diagnosed depression and that it had been going on for years... and I had been sweeping it under the carpet the whole time.

Intellectually I have learned to accept the reality of depression as a condition that exists, is not a cop out and can strike anyone, but still subconsciously labouring under the old school misconception that its a weakness; something that somebody else gets, but not me. I was still in denial.

I did tell my wife however (my amazing long suffering wife), expecting her to confirm my denial. Instead, she said " I knew it!!" and helped me understand what she had been seeing for years.

Finally I admitted it to myself. That was hard and painful.

So this is my coming out of the closet,  not for sympathy or anything like that, but part of the process of admitting it, owning it and doing something about it.

It is also a precurser as an apology to all those I've sleighted here. I realize now that, though I believe in my point (whatever it is), the bickering was all a subterfuge to hide behind. So... sorry.

I haven't worked out how to get around this yet, or what form of professional help Ill seek but thanks to those in this thread who've shared their experiences and advice.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 September 2014)

> I haven't worked out how to get around this yet, or what form of professional help Ill seek but thanks to those in this thread who've shared their experiences and advice.




That is the question isn't it ? When do you get help ?

If anyone has a good answer to this question I'd like to know.

I have some of the same feelings as Wayne but I find it useful to have a hobby and work towards a target. It keeps the mind active and interested and away from darker thoughts.

Best of luck Wayne.


----------



## burglar (24 September 2014)

wayneL said:


> ...  drink too much ...




Problem with alcohol is this:

It is a depressant!


----------



## dutchie (24 September 2014)

Thanks for sharing, Wayne.
Courageous of you.
I'm sure we all have thoughts about being depressed at different times (even if we don't realise it).


----------



## Knobby22 (24 September 2014)

Bugger. Don't let the pschys pump you with drugs. Don't medicalise it unless you are truly suffering a depressive state.

I don't get depressed but the funny thing is that unlike many people I know, alcohol doesn't give me much pleasure. When I drink its just to relax a little or to be sociable and that's about it. 

And just because you feel a bit down sometimes doesn't mean you are truly depressed, it might just mean that you are not happy with the way your life is running at the present time , in a bit of a rut. I suggest do something different. 

Good luck Wayne.

A pub joke:

_A woman walked into a bar and asked for a double entendre, so he gave her one._


----------



## SirRumpole (24 September 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> A pub joke:
> 
> _A woman walked into a bar and asked for a double entendre, so he gave her one._




You've got me depressed now Knobby, I don't get it


----------



## Muschu (24 September 2014)

Wonderfully expressed Wayne.  Very courageous as well as the way to go.  First step on the road to recovery.

There are many fantastic resources to support and help the multitudes of people with depression.  You are clearly intelligent and on the right path.

Very best wishes

Rick


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## Macquack (24 September 2014)

wayneL said:


> And then there are the social phobias, *the telephone is an object of fear in my world*, amongst other things.




Thanks Wayne for sharing your experience.

It intrigues me that you say "the telephone is an object of fear in my world", because like you I need to answer my phone for business but when it rings I either get very annoyed or anxious that to answer the call will have only negative consequences.


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## dutchie (24 September 2014)




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## explod (24 September 2014)

You are made of good stuff to come out and discuss this matter wayneL.  Only just noted the thread now and will be pleased to share as time permits.

I have had years of counselling, (psychology) survived a suicide attempt and only recently come out of denial and to terms with myself.

Three months ago at the suggestion of my Doctor was referred to a psychiatrist for the first time, several discussions later and medication have levelled my mood behaviour to the bast state in nearly 20 years.

We are not alone champ.


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## darkhorse70 (24 September 2014)

Hey Brad, as long as ypu have good support it always gets better. About a year ago I injured my neck and it was nuthing to serious but it triggered some sort of anxiety which I had always had.

But it stripped my faith in life away. I just stayed home. I was scared to go outside. Nervous to be with others. My thoughts were slowly consuming me. I could never sleep. I thought I was going insane.

I told my parents but if others have never been there they woll never know the struggle. I started seeing a phycologist and it has helped me heaps. 

Ill never be the same but now I know how to manage my thoughts. You keep mindfull. You monitor any negative thoughts and let them go. You set tasks and you dont judge your emotions. If you have the thought that you feel bad, you recognize it as a thought.

Eventually you get so good at it that megative thoughts dont bother you and determine the way you feel.

Im lucky im still young and dont have much responsibilities so it helps me manage. The best advice my friemd gave me " dont fight it". Just accept life and let all your worries go and a million tonnes will lift off your shoulders. Good luck man and remember you're not alone. Alot of people go through it and its normal.


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## pixel (24 September 2014)

You're a brave man, Wayne, baring your soul in this way.

I don't know if I had the guts to that degree of honesty. 
If nothing else, I'll try to listen more closely next time a friend shares his thoughts and fears with me.

Here is hoping that you get the best possible care and treatment; your wife seems to be pretty understanding and supportive, now she knows that you own (up to) it. That's half the battle won.

Respect, Man.


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## So_Cynical (24 September 2014)

wayneL said:


> Finally I admitted it to myself. That was hard and painful.
> 
> So this is my coming out of the closet,  not for sympathy or anything like that, but part of the process of admitting it, owning it and doing something about it.




Well this is the start of any healing/get well process, a necessary discovery.



wayneL said:


> It is also a precurser as an apology to all those I've sleighed here. I realize now that, though I believe in my point (whatever it is), the bickering was all a subterfuge to hide behind. So... sorry.




And there i was thinking you were just another red neck asshole.


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## barney (24 September 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> And there i was thinking you were just another red neck asshole.





That'll cheer him up for sure    Onya Wayne!


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## Joe Blow (24 September 2014)

I can't even remember an Aussie Stock Forums before wayneL. ASF came into being on May 28, 2004 and Wayne joined on July 9 of that same year. I have no idea how he got here or why he decided to stay, but in the last 10 years Wayne has never stopped contributing to this community. He was our first moderator and has helped watch over ASF for more than a decade now.

For those who have been around here for some time will know, Wayne's expertise is in options. When a forum is first starting out, people only stick around if there is something interesting going on. Right from the beginning Wayne helped make ASF interesting. His educational posts on options helped to draw in new members at a time when this place was nothing more than a handful of people chatting amongst themselves. 

Wayne, although I don't quite know what you've been going through in recent times, I know what you've done for ASF and you have a lot of friends here who support you. You've helped a lot of people understand options a little better and have saved countless punters from throwing away a small fortune on overpriced "courses" run by greedy, unscrupulous spruikers. 

It sounds like you're already making progress and I have no doubt at all that you'll beat this. 

Good luck mate!


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## sails (24 September 2014)

Very courageous thing to share it, Wayne, and wonderful to read the support here at ASF for you.  I joined ASF because of the interesting options discussions which Joe has mentioned and  still in the early stages of learning the nuances myself, I certainly much appreciated the effort you put into posting!

Realising there is a problem is often the first step towards healing and I can only wish you the very best as you teach the black dog that he's an outside dog now.

Sending positive thoughts your way...


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## burglar (25 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> You've got me depressed now Knobby, I don't get it




Double means two, but he only 'gave her one'!

@ wayneL

I meant to be empathetic ....


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## Tink (25 September 2014)

Thoughts are with you, Wayne, and I wish you all the best.

Stay safe.


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## dutchie (25 September 2014)

explod said:


> You are made of good stuff to come out and discuss this matter wayneL.  Only just noted the thread now and will be pleased to share as time permits.
> 
> I have had years of counselling, (psychology) survived a suicide attempt and only recently come out of denial and to terms with myself.
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing, explod.

People who are courageous enough to share their lives contribute to helping those who have similar problems.

If nothing else it lets them know that they are not the only ones with those problems and feelings.

Well done to all who contribute with their journeys. We should encourage people to do so because it may help themselves as well as others.

I have seen that ASF is very good at supporting people who may have problems.

My respect and support to you all.


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## Logique (25 September 2014)

wayneL said:


> ...as an apology to all those I've sleighted here. I realize now that, though I believe in my point (whatever it is), the bickering was all a subterfuge to hide behind. So... sorry.
> 
> I haven't worked out how to get around this yet, or what form of professional help Ill seek but thanks to those in this thread who've shared their experiences and advice.



I've only just seen your post Wayne, as I noticed others kept referring back to it. 

Mate, please go right on posting and bickering! 

Your contributions are apropos and entertaining. Scarcely _ad hominem_.  

Seems you're on a good treatment path now, and plenty of support in here.


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## skc (25 September 2014)

wayneL said:


> I haven't worked out how to get around this yet, or what form of professional help Ill seek but thanks to those in this thread who've shared their experiences and advice.




All the best Wayne. I wish you a speedy recovery and discover how good "being normal" feels.


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## McLovin (25 September 2014)

Well done wayne for being so honest about it. It's much better to have these things out in the open than bottled up inside, I say that from experience. 

Hope you continue down the road to recovery.


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## Tisme (25 September 2014)

My wife was a depressant, which was rather hard for me to handle and I think it actually contributed to her final demise. My son has bipolar in a big way, which just added guilt to my wife, blaming her gene pool.

I can't say I ever really had what I observed in my wife or boy and my daughter is very much like me. However since finding my love unexpectedly gone from this world, her body slumped in a chair I must say I have a hard time putting in the good fight, although I still keep being reminded by strangers my work rate is apparently admirable. Some of my long time friends have decided I'm on the nose for not being entertaining enough, even though I didn't milk for sympathy and presented happy... that haunts me too.

So rather than even think about the nightmare beset me, I just keep on keeping on as best I can, do my usual good Samaritan work for people, avoid the drink, have marathon sex with women (did I say I really love women:- I was faithful for 36 years +2) which usually includes some moderated beer, Sambuca and 43  and I have my friend Mr Cialis if I need him .... did I say that particular medication is probably up there with penicillin as one of the greatest discoveries of all time 

I had 36 years to figure out a cure for depression and the best I could come up with was to avoid trying to offer logical cures and shut my mouth when I wanted to say e.g. "cheer up, you have nothing to worry about, why are you so sad, smile, take a pill, don't you love me anymore, not again ...."  It seems even depressants don't know how to offer advice to depressants, so people like me should just stand by to give support.

Wayne (&Rumpole et al) I'm here to give you support if you want it


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## Knobby22 (25 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> *A woman walked into a bar and asked for a double entendre, so he gave her one.*
> 
> You've got me depressed now Knobby, I don't get it




A double entendre is saying a sentence that has two meanings, one innocent, the other dirty.
A classic comic device used in mainly English shows including Carry On Gang, Are you being served, Shakespeare and Austin Power's movies. Extensively used in rap today. I just find them very amusing.

Sometimes they are accidental , another (true) example is:

A female news anchor who, the day after it was supposed to have 
snowed and hadn't, turned to the weatherman and asked:
"So Bob, where's that eight inches you promised me last night?" (The weatherman and half the crew were so helpless with laughter they had to leave the set.)

So with the original joke, she asked for a double entendre so he gave her one -has two meanings - one he gave her the double entendre or he gave her "one". it's a joke on the meaning of double entendre.


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## SirRumpole (25 September 2014)

> "So Bob, where's that eight inches you promised me last night?" (The weatherman and half the crew were so helpless with laughter they had to leave the set.)




Ah yes, another classic from a newsreader

"A woman is in hospital tonight after being bitten on the funnel by a fingerweb spider"

Had me in stitches for days.


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## cynic (25 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> ...."  It seems even depressants don't know how to offer advice to depressants, so people like me should just stand by to give support.
> ...




+1

It's such an easy mistake to make! I've observed myself making it repeatedly over the years.

Being subjected to "helpful" reassurances from others can often result in belittlement rather than support, especially when a "helper" enthusiatically claims to know exactly what the subject is enduring and how easily the situation may be remedied.

There's a lot that I'm tempted to say here, however, a recent experience leads me to believe that it may be more prudent to desist.

I recently discussed matters of a related nature to a long term (and now former) friend. The friend rang me the following day complaining that it took her half an hour, following our previous conversation, for her to convince herself not to jump off her balcony.

We've not spoken to each other since, which is unfortunate since we'd been good friends for decades.

For those that are experiencing a noticeable absence of joy in life, it is my sincere hope that you somehow manage to catch a lucky break (hopefully via discovery of the underlying cause and an effective remedy).


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## SirRumpole (25 September 2014)

> There's a lot that I'm tempted to say here, however, a recent experience leads me to believe that it may be more prudent to desist.




Yes, very difficult to know what to say unless you have experienced depression yourself, and even then is one person's depression like another person's ?

Probably the best advice one can give is to seek professional help.


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## Knobby22 (25 September 2014)

Take up tap dancing.
That's what I heard today suggested for people feeling a bit blue. 
I personally would love to be able to do a soft shoe shuffle wearing a suitable felt hat.


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## SirRumpole (25 September 2014)

Very sorry to hear of your situation Tisme.

You always post good stuff and give some laughs.

Please carry on.


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## wayneL (25 September 2014)

Thank you each and every one of you for  your replies and encouragement,  especially those who've been touched by this directly or as  a  support person for someone. I must admit to being a bit overwhelmed.

My condition is moderate and now that Ive cast aside the psychological ramparts I've been using to hide from myself, its very tough to function and feels horrible. I cannot imagine how hard this is for those with severe depression, kudos to you and to those who support you/them. That is courage.... and I now have a small inkling of why some choose not to carry on

I owe some personal replies and hope you understand if it takes me some days to do so.

Bless you guys and gals, you are real pearls... and Godspeed to those who are struggling with their own demons.


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## Julia (26 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> So rather than even think about the nightmare beset me, I just keep on keeping on as best I can, do my usual good Samaritan work for people






Knobby22 said:


> Bugger. Don't let the pschys pump you with drugs. Don't medicalise it unless you are truly suffering a depressive state.
> 
> And just because you feel a bit down sometimes doesn't mean you are truly depressed, it might just mean that you are not happy with the way your life is running at the present time , in a bit of a rut. I suggest do something different.







cynic said:


> There's a lot that I'm tempted to say here, however, a recent experience leads me to believe that it may be more prudent to desist.



I share your reticence, cynic.   Especially if one's thoughts may tend to run counter to the prevailing theme.
I've also been chided in the past by one member for being too serious, and by another for being too self-disclosing, so am bearing both those admonitions in mind.

Thoreau said: 







> The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.



So it seems unhappiness/depression/sadness was, at least in the view of this philosopher, just as prevalent in the 19th century as it appears to be today.

Any comment I might have may or may not be influenced by:

*several years running a large medical centre where my husband was a partner
*the partner following being a psychiatrist
*working for a multinational pharmaceutical company with an emphasis on psychoactive drugs and therefore much time spent in psychiatric hospitals
*my own experience of grief, PTSD and suicidal level of depression.

We seem to be experiencing an epidemic of obesity, diabetes and depression.  The first is only too obvious, the second biologically measurable, but we have no objective test for what we broadly call 'depression'.

How do we define it?  Is it just a lack of joy?  I'd suggest that few ordinary people traverse their everyday lives filled with joy;  more often than not they manage to endure, do what they have to in order to meet the demands and obligations of ordinariness.   Is it a sense of irritability, a quickness to find fault, thus an outlet for internal disquiet and anger?   And so on through the full gamut of emotions to the ultimate state of desperation which leads to suicide?

Knobby above endorses my own hope that people are not easily persuaded to medication.   It seems to work for some people.  So does placebo.  Alternatives are - again suggested by Knobby - physical activity which can be tap dancing, running, swimming, any vigorous sustained exercise that raises endorphin levels but perhaps more importantly gives that psychological reassurance of "hell, I've just run 15 kms:  I'm doing pretty damn well".

I've known people with truly terrible lives, disadvantage and tragedy that would crush many, yet they keep smiling and manage to focus on what is still good.  Often they're the ones who reach out to others, the ones who volunteer in their communities and as a result receive a sense of being useful, being valued.

I've asked my former husband, all his partners, psychologists and psychiatrists, my current GP "are most people happy enough with their lives?"  Without exception the answer was "no, not really".   "Most people struggle to cope".

I think how we perceive life has much to do with our expectations.   When I first as a naive young woman fell in love, I had every expectation of the happy ever after stuff.  Probably most people getting married now feel similarly.  But it's just not often so with about a fifty percent divorce rate.

Everywhere we see exhortations to be happy, 'get more out of life', 'the secrets of true happiness', 'how to change your thinking' etc etc.   Raising our expectations that there's something wrong with us if we just more or less manage to negotiate life's major hurdles, often feeling exhausted by the difficulties.

I've no such expectations, haven't had for a long time.  I'm content enough with just peace, lack of fear, a sense of financial and material security.  Any joy comes from the simplest of sources - my dog's love of every second of her life, the way she makes me smile just because she's so beautiful in temperament as well as appearance, the beauty of a garden I've worked hundreds of hours to create, the pure clarity of the water as we walk beside the sea, the immersing pleasure of beautiful music and the writings of talented wordsmiths.

Of course there's sadness for opportunities lost, poor decisions made, but they are what they are.  No point ruminating over what could or should have been.

I'm really concerned about the pathologising of emotions.   Why do we have an expectation that life will be either fair or make us happy?   Seems to me that there is so much focus on the self, the analysis of every emotion, when alternatively we could often say to ourselves "it is what it is".  Then look for what is good and what you've achieved.

This does not mean taking a panglossian view of the world (Voltaire's professor who believed 'everything is for the best in this best of all possible worlds') but rather a shifting of focus from what is lacking to what we have to be thankful for.

We live in one of the best countries in the world with largely stable government, good health care, good social support.  Of course it's not perfect but it beats many many countries hands down.
Yet we have people who are employed, earning reasonable incomes, many choices available to them, but they put all their focus on what they believe is missing.

Tisme says above:  "I just keep on keeping on as best I can, do my usual good Samaritan work for people"
Sounds about right for me too.

None of the above musings are any more than that and are not directed toward any individual or are in response to any particular comment by anyone.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 September 2014)

Nice post Julia.

I'm wondering how much of depression is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain which can be corrected by drugs or diet. If a person is ok one day but down the next, some sort of imbalance would be suggested.

I think most of us fall into this category. We have occasional spells of depression, but most of the time we are ok.

So I would be interested to know Julia from your contacts if there is a biological relationship between mental state and brain chemistry. Obviously, seriously mentally ill people are treated with drugs which I know have some pretty bad side effects, but for the majority of us who just need a "pick me up", do you know of any dietary remedies ?


----------



## Julia (26 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Nice post Julia.
> 
> I'm wondering how much of depression is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain which can be corrected by drugs or diet. If a person is ok one day but down the next, some sort of imbalance would be suggested.
> 
> ...



This is something I'd prefer not to make any particular comment on, Rumpole.  I've already said that, unlike for say diabetes, afaik there is no no blood test which will demonstrate any lack or excess of anything.

Ditto diet.   The magazines are, of course, full of supa foods which will cure everything.

It makes simple sense to me that if you do the best you can to eat with a view to sensible nutrition, don't over indulge in alcohol, drugs, your substance of choice, and get plenty of exercise in the fresh air, that's going to be helpful.

One factor I omitted to include is the reality that a significant physical illness can play in one's emotional state.  Obviously, if you're in chronic pain, have a debilitating illness, you're somewhat unlikely to be jumping for joy.
No reason imo to medicate what seems to me a perfectly rational response to an unpleasant and difficult situation.  Again, it is what it is.
Sorry not to be more helpful.


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## noco (26 September 2014)

I came across this article which some viewers may appreciate.

It is about the symptoms, causes and cure.

I personally went through it many years ago and took up yoga and meditation which I practiced for 18 years.

I still use it now an then when I need it.......meditation is a wonderful brain healing and is relaxing for the body, mind and the soul.

http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/DEPRESSION - Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment.html


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## sptrawler (26 September 2014)

noco said:


> I came across this article which some viewers may appreciate.
> 
> It is about the symptoms, causes and cure.
> 
> ...




That's a good article noco, as it says most people go through periods of depression.

I certainly have, but fortunately I have a person in my life that inspires me. 
Her ability to to remain positive and happy, despite personal handicaps many would find debilitating, gives me the reality check I need.

These days there is far too much access to information and social contact, years ago people could only compare their situation and achievements, with their imediate circle of contacts.

Now everyone can have external pressures, applied from all and sundry through social media and the internet.
I bet the rate of chronic depression has increased since the advent of the internet.


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## pixel (26 September 2014)

noco said:


> I came across this article which some viewers may appreciate.
> 
> It is about the symptoms, causes and cure.
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing that article, noco.
From my own experience - decades in the past - I can vouch for the author's key points, including what you mentioned about yoga and meditation. The details don't matter in this context; 4-5 decades ago, little was known about seratonin and neurotransmitters. However, my Therapist introduced me to meditation to put the brakes on that "garbage truck". Once I had regained calm and rational thought, we could tackle the source and make the necessary life changes.

Years later, I resumed and intensified practicing Hatha Yoga to the point that I use it not only to control mental adversity, but also physical pain. The latter is particularly helpful when I expel a kidney stone; it also eliminates the need for any needles at the Dentist's. (Funny enough, the only pain I can NOT control that way is a migraine: a lasting reminder of a head injury from a car accident in the '90s.)


----------



## Muschu (27 September 2014)

Seems a well balanced article Noco.  Thank you.

I'm heading towards 70 and have spent some of my working years as a psychologist.  I've also experienced my own issues.

I am very much research based.  (I wouldn't choose a medical specialist who worked from anecdotal information).

The treatment approach to depression needs very careful consideration and not an impulsive reaction.  Meditation (not the self-appointed guru variety), medication, therapy, quality support and exercise may all have a place.  

At the risk of repeating myself (as I have mentioned this before):  A few years back I came across the work of Professor Jon Kabat-Zinn of Boston on Mindfulness Meditation for depression, anxiety and pain control and undertook the training myself.  Worth a look and doesn't need to be used in isolation from other approaches.

In my view it is a great step forward to be open about a mental issue rather than hiding it because of stigma.  An anonymous Internet forum is an excellent start.  Disclosing face-to-face to TRUSTED others, including quality Drs and therapists, is the next step.

Internet forums can be VERY supporitve but won't resolve depression or a multitude of other medical conditions.

Enough for now. 

Rick


----------



## Julia (27 September 2014)

sptrawler said:


> Now everyone can have external pressures, applied from all and sundry through social media and the internet.
> I bet the rate of chronic depression has increased since the advent of the internet.



Hard to tell, I guess, whether it has actually increased or more people are talking about it.  Perhaps both.
As with sexual abuse, the more publicity that occurs, the more people will disclose their own experiences.
I'm not sure that means it's any more common than several generations ago, when people nurtured a greater sense of personal privacy.

Social media seems to harbour a good deal of bullying and nastiness even before you get to what to me is the unnecessary and boring compulsion of so many to describe their every mood change and treatment thereof to the world at large.   

We don't rush to broadcast that we have various physical ailments, so I'm a bit puzzled about why it's become so common to discuss mood.



Muschu said:


> Seems a well balanced article Noco.  Thank you.



Agree on the whole.  What it omits, however, is that some of the SSRI's, particularly Zoloft, have caused worsening of depression in some people.  I know two people who were mildly (and perhaps quite reasonably) sad - one after a marriage break up and the other after a miscarriage - but by no means suicidal or immobilised by depression, became suicidal.  The medication was stopped and any suicidal ideation disappeared.

My own father briefly took Zoloft.  He became hypomanic in the first week - frenetic activity, crazy thought patterns, like a completely different person.

If someone has a definitive study, double blind, randomised, etc. that shows clear efficacy over placebo of any of the SSRI's I'd be most interested.  I'm not saying they don't work.  I'm just aware of many factors being involved in 'recovery', not the least of which is the patient's belief in the prescribing doctor.

We also don't know all the long term side effects of this class of drugs.  Just yesterday there was an additional study which showed a strong correlation between sustained (as little as 90 days) use of benzodiazepines (anxiolytics like valium et al) and Alzheimer's Disease.   It was conducted by, I think, a Professor of Medicine at the University of Indiana, but I've so far not been able to find any details re numbers, controls etc.



> I am very much research based.  (I wouldn't choose a medical specialist who worked from anecdotal information).







> In my view it is a great step forward to be open about a mental issue rather than hiding it because of stigma.



Do you really think there is still stigma attached to depression?   I'd agree that there certainly is when it comes to such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder etc., but - as already stated - most people have experienced periods of depression, some mildly, some severely.



> An anonymous Internet forum is an excellent start.





> Disclosing face-to-face to TRUSTED others, including quality Drs and therapists, is the next step.




I'd very much put those two suggestions the other way around but respect your right to your own priorities.


----------



## herzy (27 September 2014)

Julia said:


> This is something I'd prefer not to make any particular comment on, Rumpole.  I've already said that, unlike for say diabetes, afaik there is no no blood test which will demonstrate any lack or excess of anything.
> 
> Ditto diet.   The magazines are, of course, full of supa foods which will cure everything.
> 
> It makes simple sense to me that if you do the best you can to eat with a view to sensible nutrition, don't over indulge in alcohol, drugs, your substance of choice, and get plenty of exercise in the fresh air, that's going to be helpful.




This may be of interest - but it's very far from being hard science. http://www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/blood-test-may-help-diagnose-depression-1.1754474#.VCZPt51--70

That aside, I believe that SSRIs do have a place for some people. As many have said, it's important to distinguish between natural and temporary depressive states and a chronic tendency towards depressive thoughts. 

Although I don't really have any science to back it up, and am aware of the effects of placebo and whatnot, I thought I might share my story and advice (for what it's worth). 

I have a family history of depression and come from a fairly neglected childhood. When I was 17 I got glandular fever, which knocked me out (left me depressed, demotivated and exhausted) for about 6 months. I found it impossible to get out of this negative sphere, and was quite depressed (but able to recognise that it was - hopefully - a temporary state, and was therefore not suicidal). I started seeing a psychologist but found that entirely useless. I started antidepressants (and went on exchange) and stopped taking them a few months later. I thought they were great, and have a personal theory that post-glandular I had a chemical imbalance / consistently lowered serotonin (this can also happen during traumatic events) which became the new 'baseline'/normal level. As such, the SSRIs were great for re-establishing a 'normal' level, and cognitive behavioural therapy relatively useless. 

I do think my case is rarer though, and psychologists are generally a MUCH better solution than SSRIs. I still feel like my default state is 'unhappy', and that it actively takes effort for me to be neutral or happy (although I am most of the time). I wouldn't classify myself as depressed any more (by any means) but rather as having a tendency towards depression. 

I think things like social support, being outside as much as possible (and as physically active as possible) are essential. These things have consistently been proven to be immensely good for health.

I do also feel like more intelligent people tend to 'think' more about the world, and that given how many bad things there are in this world (climate change, humanitarian crises, etc - pick your poison), it's impossible not to take this to heart to some extent. That said, that might just be because of my depressive prism - I'm not sure.


----------



## burglar (27 September 2014)

herzy said:


> ... That said, that might just be because of my depressive prism - I'm not sure.



My opinion:
Its not your prism, but the media's reporting prism.
**** happens!
It takes a huge zoom lens and sensational byline to focus our attention on the news.

I refuse to watch it.


----------



## herzy (27 September 2014)

burglar said:


> My opinion:
> Its not your prism, but the media's reporting prism.
> **** happens!
> It takes a huge zoom lens and sensational byline to focus our attention on the news.
> ...




Yes and no. I pay zero attention to Australian news, because it's myopic and sensationalist as you say. The only attention I give to Australian politics is at election time, as I find it frustratingly myopic, sensationalist, contradictory, island mentality etc... 

I do however pay attention to what's going on in the world because I think everybody should be engaged in or interested in the world we inhabit (at least on some level) as opposed to sticking one's head in the sand and being happy with one's own personal situation. When I do so, I realise there are a lot of things to be sad about (namely disease, natural disasters, climate change, and politics and religion and their effects) - which isn't really the fault of the media, but a result of the world in which we live.


----------



## Muschu (27 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Hard to tell, I guess, whether it has actually increased or more people are talking about it.  Perhaps both.
> As with sexual abuse, the more publicity that occurs, the more people will disclose their own experiences.
> I'm not sure that means it's any more common than several generations ago, when people nurtured a greater sense of personal privacy.
> 
> ...




Thanks Julia

Just briefly:

I am certainly not a medical practitioner but have an awareness of SSRI issues. This is not an infallible route of course but certainly worthy of research and professional advice.

By "stigma" I meant from the viewpoint of the depressed person.  Sorry I wasn't clear.

Regarding the closing two suggestions.  I probably wouldn't prioritise in "order of worth" as this is likely to be linked to personal circumstances. 

Regards


----------



## Julia (27 September 2014)

herzy, thank you for your comments and your own experience which seems like a pretty objective personal insight.


herzy said:


> This may be of interest - but it's very far from being hard science. http://www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/blood-test-may-help-diagnose-depression-1.1754474#.VCZPt51--70




This, inter alia, says 







> scientists from North Western University in Chicago say they have identified nine chemicals in the blood which are raised during depression.
> 
> They have devised a blood test which measures three of these chemicals to diagnose depression.
> 
> The researchers measured chemical levels in the blood of 32 patients with severe depression and compared them to 32 non-depressed individuals.



As you say, it's not any sort of hard science.  32 patients are not statistically significant and neither do we know anything about the methodology.  Further they say they have 'identified nine chemicals in the blood which are raised during depression' but do not list these chemicals.  Then they claim to have devised a blood test which measures just three of these nine chemicals.   
All very vague and I'd be very surprised if it were to be peer reviewed or printed in any substantial journal.
I might, of course, be completely wrong.



> I have a family history of depression and come from a fairly neglected childhood.



Which is possibly going to predispose  you to think about inheriting the genetic disposition toward depression?



> When I was 17 I got glandular fever, which knocked me out (left me depressed, demotivated and exhausted) for about 6 months.



Very common, and used to be called 'post viral syndrome' often subsequently interchanged with 'chronic fatigue syndrome' for no particularly good reason that I've ever seen documented.

(I also had glandular fever at age 16, with the resulting post-viral symptoms you describe, off school for more than a year and intermittent recurrences of the acute phase for more than two years afterwards.  Since then any significant viral infection will result in the same syndrome, biologically demonstrated by significantly elevated liver enzymes which lead to the conclusion that it is in fact a biological disorder, rather than one which is purely psychological.)
Of course, psychological repercussions would seem to be a pretty normal response to months of feeling sick, loss of appetite, fevers and chills, and minimal energy.  



> I found it impossible to get out of this negative sphere, and was quite depressed (but able to recognise that it was - hopefully - a temporary state, and was therefore not suicidal).



Good for you.   A long time ago before many of the current terms were adopted, there used to be in the literature a clear differentiation between 'reactive depression' and 'endogenous depression'. ie perfectly rational to feel depressed when unwell and not seeing a resolution to that, and a sense of misery for no discernible reason.



> I started seeing a psychologist but found that entirely useless.



Some are a waste of time and money.  Others are thoughtful and very helpful.
One I consulted about the repetitive nightmares emanating from PTSD had the profound suggestion "just think happy thoughts when you turn out the light!"
Right.  Could have got that from "New Idea" or the "Women's Weekly" for a couple of dollars.



> I started antidepressants (and went on exchange) and stopped taking them a few months later. I thought they were great, and have a personal theory that post-glandular I had a chemical imbalance / consistently lowered serotonin (this can also happen during traumatic events) which became the new 'baseline'/normal level. As such, the SSRIs were great for re-establishing a 'normal' level, and cognitive behavioural therapy relatively useless.



Glad to know it worked for you. 



> I do think my case is rarer though, and psychologists are generally a MUCH better solution than SSRIs. I still feel like my default state is 'unhappy', and that it actively takes effort for me to be neutral or happy (although I am most of the time). I wouldn't classify myself as depressed any more (by any means) but rather as having a tendency towards depression.



Sounds like a very thoughtful conclusion and not too dissimilar to my earlier expressed notion of minimal expectations of "happiness".



> I think things like social support, being outside as much as possible (and as physically active as possible) are essential. These things have consistently been proven to be immensely good for health.



+1, yes very much so.



> I do also feel like more intelligent people tend to 'think' more about the world, and that given how many bad things there are in this world (climate change, humanitarian crises, etc - pick your poison), it's impossible not to take this to heart to some extent. That said, that might just be because of my depressive prism - I'm not sure.



Again, a thoughtful and realistic comment.  I think you're right.  If we are involved in pubs, pokies and partying we will perhaps be less disposed to be concerned about global and national worries.
I like the AA philosophy of worrying about only the things about which you can effect a change, but it's easier said than done.

Thanks again for such an interesting post, herzy.

I should probably also qualify my comments with the effects of having worked for many years in the multinational pharmaceutical industry, including very short stays with two major companies because of ethical differences.  There are absolutely companies which have sound ethical frameworks, but rather more which will manipulate data and interpret results to their own ends.

One of the very real problems (unless it has very recently been established) is that there is no such thing as a central register of drug trials.  No requirement for any researcher to - when engaging on any sort of study - register details of that study so that it can later be followed up in terms of results.

As a consequence, drug companies can and do simply junk trials that do not elicit the results they seek.
They might do ten trials which all show unacceptable side effects of their potential new drug, just obliterate them as though they had never happened, and then widely publicise any trial which shows their product in a favourable light.

A simple register of all trials with full results of each one would give a much more clear and authentic framework for the prescribing community.


----------



## wayneL (27 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Do you really think there is still stigma attached to depression?




I think there is, less so than before, but still there. Moreso, there is a lack of understanding of clinical depression.

This is why, having decided upon the necessity to do so, I blabbed here. My personal contacts are intertwined with my professional contacts and would have most certainly had ramifications on my business.



> ...the unnecessary and boring compulsion of so many to describe their every mood change and treatment thereof to the world at large.




And Julia, I do apologize for my boring revelation. As it happens, it was most helpful for me to a/ address the issue as detailed earlier and b/ have some useful private discussions with others who have been very helpful with advice on what to do next. Already I think I am benefiting from the exercise; so for me at least, not unnecessary at all.

I sure you are aware of the most effective way to mitigate the tedium however.


----------



## Julia (27 September 2014)

wayneL said:


> And Julia, I do apologize for my boring revelation.



It's an open forum.  We are both equally entitled to express a view, surely?
No need for either you or I to apologise.  I don't think your sarcasm is really necessary.



> As it happens, it was most helpful for me to a/ address the issue as detailed earlier and b/ have some useful private discussions with others who have been very helpful with advice on what to do next. Already I think I am benefiting from the exercise; so for me at least, not unnecessary at all.



That's good to hear.



> I sure you are aware of the most effective way to mitigate the tedium however.



I have no idea what you mean.  Perhaps you could clarify?   
I'd ask via PM but, following your last go at me in public, when I asked for the reason via PM in order to avoid a public spat, there was no response.

I made it clear that my remarks were not addressed to anyone in particular, just my own observations from personal experience and objective observations from many qualified people over a long period of time.  Such remarks included my own experience of a suicidal level of depression over more than two years.

Surely a forum is a place where various views can be expressed without the obligation for everyone to fall into line and agree with a particular sentiment?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2014)

> One I consulted about the repetitive nightmares emanating from PTSD had the profound suggestion "just think happy thoughts when you turn out the light!"
> Right. Could have got that from "New Idea" or the "Women's Weekly" for a couple of dollars.




Did that idea work ?

I'm not passing judgements on the competence of your consultant, but it would seem a good idea to try some simple things first, (esp not prescribing drugs) and if they don't work then move on to something more intensive.


----------



## wayneL (28 September 2014)

Thanks Julia, you have confirmed my reticence to go anywhere near the "professional" psychology communitym


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## herzy (28 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Thanks again for such an interesting post, herzy.




And thank you for your response.



Julia said:


> One of the very real problems (unless it has very recently been established) is that there is no such thing as a central register of drug trials.  No requirement for any researcher to - when engaging on any sort of study - register details of that study so that it can later be followed up in terms of results.
> 
> As a consequence, drug companies can and do simply junk trials that do not elicit the results they seek.
> They might do ten trials which all show unacceptable side effects of their potential new drug, just obliterate them as though they had never happened, and then widely publicise any trial which shows their product in a favourable light.
> ...




Interesting (and problematic) - kinda undermines the idea of statistical validity, empiricism etc.


----------



## burglar (28 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Did that idea work ?
> 
> I'm not passing judgements on the competence of your consultant, but it would seem a good idea to try some simple things first, (esp not prescribing drugs) and if they don't work then move on to something more intensive.




I find that idea works for me, how about you?

Another simple idea that works for me is:
"Take joy in the little things ... "

Ohh! And take a walk on the beach!


----------



## Julia (28 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Did that idea work ?
> 
> I'm not passing judgements on the competence of your consultant, but it would seem a good idea to try some simple things first, (esp not prescribing drugs) and if they don't work then move on to something more intensive.



Rumpole, I don't need to pay $160 or more per hour for something so utterly obvious that a total dope would try that first.   Trauma that is deeply embedded into the subconscious and relived when the conscious mind is not in control is not so easily dealt with.   I don't want to discuss my personal situation any more than that.



wayneL said:


> Thanks Julia, you have confirmed my reticence to go anywhere near the "professional" psychology communitym



Wayne, if I've created that impression, it was unintentional.  The psychological profession, along with the medical profession, just in my own experience at least, contains very good and very poor individuals along with every standard in between.
Someone suggested recently in a discussion about this that the scheme which ran for some years whereby people could get ten sessions with a psychologist, completely free of charge via Medicare has brought forth so much business for psychologists that they had become complacent and lazy.   I don't think that scheme is now available and the closest to it does offer Medicare subsidy but this is by no means the entire cost and varies from practitioner to practitioner.

A psychiatrist, being medically trained, might be better, but perhaps more focused on the use of drugs, though I have no good reason for that thought.



herzy said:


> Interesting (and problematic) - kinda undermines the idea of statistical validity, empiricism etc.



Indeed.  And it would seem such a simple idea to set up.  Vested interests no doubt prevail.

One of the reasons I'm so cautious about drugs, especially those where no clear mechanism of action has been demonstrated, is the sheer huge value of the industry.   I don't think it's any coincidence that there is such widespread discussion about depression, apparently innocently placed articles in magazines/newspapers/the web, 'experts' being interviewed at the same time as more and more manufacturers of antidepressants are reaping the benefits.

I've organised such publicity myself in the past and been highly paid for good placements.   Also for such as arranging 'educational seminars' where one has managed to persuade an opinion maker (senior specialist eg) to talk on a general educational topic but of course with appropriate mentions throughout of the sponsor's fine product, such meeting attracting GPs, registrars et al who ask their questions and receive all the necessary reassurances about side effects, benefits v risks etc.  

I'd be very surprised if such practices do not still exist and then some.  It's a multi billion dollar industry, very much for profit, as distinct from any altruistic notion of improving the lives of patients.  We have previously on this forum had detailed the utterly miserable results of the daughter of one of our members being prescribed a potent anti-psychotic drug, largely (as I recall) to help her sleep.   The repercussions have been dreadful and long lasting.  Some of these drugs are genuine lifesavers for people with psychosis but it's hard to see that they are the first choice for just sedation considering their side effect profile.
I am, perhaps, particularly cynical and quite possibly unfair.

All last week I couldn't turn on ABC Radio without being bombarded with something called "Mental As Week".  I took from this incessant urging that listeners were encouraged to approach people with a question along the lines of "how's your mental health"?  Well, good luck with that.  Probably get a smack in the face if you just up and said that to someone.

Then it doesn't seem possible to stand in a supermarket queue, idly observing the magazines, without noticing how many have headers like "XYZ admits to long standing battle with depression":   "Your solution to the blues", etc etc.

To those of us who are trying to focus on what's good about lives rather than the tough bits, it just seems all pervasive and possibly counter-productive.

As always, I'm speaking from a purely personal perspective and not directing any remarks at or about anyone, just a wide and general observation.

herzy, I've been thinking about your comment that you believe you are perhaps somewhat disposed toward unhappiness.  So interesting.  Do you think it's a genetic thing, not so different from the colour of your eyes etc?  Brings up once again the old nature/nurture argument.   
I do not mean to ask anything intrusive, but I'd be keen to hear more of your thoughts on this if you're so inclined.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2014)

> Rumpole, I don't need to pay $160 or more per hour for something so utterly obvious that a total dope would try that first.




Fair enough, but sometimes when people aren't thinking straight, the obvious doesn't occur to them.


----------



## Julia (7 October 2014)

Yesterday's RN program "The World Today" included an interview with Professor Anthony Jorm, from Melbourne University's School of Population and Global Health, who has just published a paper in the ANZ Journal of Psychiatry.

Inter alia, he says



> I think what's happened is that historically, we had mental health services for people who really had the more severe mental illnesses like schizophrenia and then what we tend to do is we try and increase the ambit of mental health services so they cover more and more people with milder problems, and I think treatments tend to work best for people with the more severe problems.





> ELEANOR HALL: And Professor Jorm, I'm intrigued in your paper that Australia has the second-highest use of antidepressants in the OECD after Iceland. Does that seem curious to you?
> 
> ANTHONY JORM: No, it doesn't surprise me at all.
> 
> We've had a massive increase in antidepressant use, and we are very high in international stakes, and one might expect that that might improve the mental health of the population, and apparently it hasn't.




Full transcript here:http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2014/s4101044.htm
The whole interview is well worth reading or listening to.

That depression might be increased in the cold and extended hours of darkness of Iceland seems less surprising than that a not much better stat applies in this place of sunshine and warmth for much of the year.


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## Knobby22 (7 October 2014)

Julia said:


> Yesterday's RN program "The World Today" included an interview with Professor Anthony Jorm, from Melbourne University's School of Population and Global Health, who has just published a paper in the ANZ Journal of Psychiatry.
> 
> Inter alia, he says
> 
> ...




Iceland would be depressing during winter.
Maybe there is something lacking in the Australian philosophy of life. Maybe we are too lucky.

I've just come back from Victorian Cuboree and though I was exhausted it was refreshing and helps the soul and I now have more great experiences with people that give a damn. Maybe the new car is not the way to happiness.
https://www.facebook.com/scoutsvictoria


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## wayneL (1 April 2015)

My black dog died.... may he RIP.

Still have bad days, but doesn't everyone?

I feel I'm past depression in the clinical sense.

IOW - I'm back.


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## trainspotter (1 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> My black dog died.... may he RIP.
> 
> Still have bad days, but doesn't everyone?
> 
> ...




Hey wayneL ... my black dog is dead and buried in my back yard. I still go and visit the grave site every now and then to remind myself what it was like when he was around. Good to see you back on deck my friend.


----------



## wayneL (1 April 2015)

Thanks man. 

Great to feel normal eh?


----------



## Joe Blow (1 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> My black dog died.... may he RIP.
> 
> Still have bad days, but doesn't everyone?
> 
> ...




Wayne, that's great news! Good to have you back on board. You've been missed.


----------



## dutchie (2 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> My black dog died.... may he RIP.
> 
> Still have bad days, but doesn't everyone?
> 
> ...




Good on you Wayne, glad to see your back.

Now here's ten option questions you could answer....

Just kidding!

I am in awe of blokes who can face and beat their demons and air them publicly to help other people!


----------



## sails (2 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> My black dog died.... may he RIP.
> 
> Still have bad days, but doesn't everyone?
> 
> ...




Wonderful news and good to see you back


----------



## johenmo (2 April 2015)

Julia said:


> A psychiatrist, being medically trained, might be better, but perhaps more focused on the use of drugs, though I have no good reason for that thought.




A member of my family has problems and after seeing Drs, Psychs and counsellors  went to a new GP because the latest meds weren't helping much.  GP said it's psychiatrist time.  Psychiatrist in first visit said I think I know what your problem is, let me think about it.  Visit 2 - got a diagnosis (which fit perfectly), different meds to suit & a big improvement to life.  I think it helped the ability to cope when a divorce happened some time later.  So from our experience, there was a benefit and shoudl be considered (forget the stigma).

I have always considered there to be a chemical/genetic reason for some people (vs the reactive).  This is a long-term harder to treat/help situation.  It's good to read of people who have managed to climb (at least part of the way) out of the pit.

And good to hear Wayne is in a better place.
!


----------



## Logique (2 April 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Hey wayneL ... my black dog is dead and buried in my back yard. I still go and visit the grave site every now and then to remind myself what it was like when he was around. Good to see you back on deck my friend...



I second that. 

Bravo to you both WayneL and Traino.


----------



## Tink (3 April 2015)

Great to hear, Wayne, and welcome back 

I saw someone mentioned a 'like' button in another thread, I still think it's a good idea in this forum.


----------



## wayneL (4 April 2015)

Thanks friends


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## explod (6 April 2015)

Onya wL.  Good to see you too gg,  quiet of late. 

Place is a bit monotonous without strong informed views bouncing around. 

On that note,  I miss Julia,  no posts in a month which is unusual.  She keeps our street clean with informed serenity.


----------



## skc (6 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> IOW - I'm back.




Normal = amazing. And that's amazing.

A song for you.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2015)

Thanks 

It's given me more of an understanding of my fellow humans.

It's amazing how many folks don't really understand depression.... shheeeeit I had it for years and didn't understand it. Not until I accepted it and owned it. (and that was the key (for me) in eventually coming good)

Even my wife, a million blessings upon her for sticking with me, didn't really understand wtf was going on, not really.

I hope it makes me a better person.


----------



## basilio (7 April 2015)

On the road to Damascus Paul !!

Welcome back...


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## wayneL (7 April 2015)

No conversions here Bas.

Just trying to be more aware of where people may be at.... and I may fall off the wagon at any time


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## Tisme (8 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> .... and I may fall off the wagon at any time




make sure you have a rope around one ankle, the other end tied off to the tow ball.


----------



## Knobby22 (8 April 2015)

Tisme said:


> make sure you have a rope around one ankle, the other end tied off to the tow ball.




That would hurt more!
Keep thinking this is a thread about a financial depression:bonk:

I like the old British saying, "Keep your chin up".         

(That sounded disjointed. Have to start a collection called Knobby's random thoughts for the mildly insane which is all of us)


----------



## BradK (11 April 2015)

Hi all, 

I just read my original post and it was very difficult to read. What a journey. 

Thanks for all the encouragement and I am glad this thread has been a blessing to you all - and WayneL - who has given me a lot of encouragement in CC's (although I haven't been around for a few years  ) thank you for sharing your own struggles. 

An update? 

I am glad to report that that episode was rather brief and I have not returned to such a depressed state. I was very, very determined to overcome my condition with a young and growing family and did drugs, therapy, exercise, more balance in work-life and thankfully I lead a much more stable life. 

It has DEFINITELY made me realise that for every 100 cases of depression there are 100 different reactions and stories and the best we can do is listen and show empathy. 

Best to you all. 

Brad


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## CanOz (11 April 2015)

wayneL said:


> Thanks
> 
> It's given me more of an understanding of my fellow humans.
> 
> ...




Well done Wayne, really happy to hear you've come out on top...!


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## wayneL (12 April 2015)

BradK thats great to hear. Hey I'm just an old curmudgeon but for someone with a young family and everything to look forward to, it's awesome that you've found a way to work through and manage it.

And it's your brave OP that's made it possible for myself and others to share our experiences as well. 

For me it proved to be cathartic. ..so thanks for your posts.

Godspeed man!


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## wayneL (12 April 2015)

Thanks Can never hesitate to look me up when in Bris


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## basilio (8 January 2018)

Came across a very interesting story on depression that people on ASF may be interested in reading.

Cheers

* Is everything you think you know about depression wrong? *
In this extract from his new book, Johann Hari, who took antidepressants for 14 years, calls for a new approach


• Johann Hari Q&A: ‘I was afraid to dismantle the story about depression and anxiety’




‘Drugs are having a positive effect for some people – but they clearly can’t be the main solution for the majority of us.’ Photograph: Alamy

Johann Hari

Sun 7 Jan ‘18 20.00 AEDT   Last modified on Sun 7 Jan ‘18 22.31 AEDT


*Shares*
44k

In the 1970s, a truth was accidentally discovered about depression – one that was quickly swept aside, because its implications were too inconvenient, and too explosive. American psychiatrists had produced a book that would lay out, in detail, all the symptoms of different mental illnesses, so they could be identified and treated in the same way across the United States. It was called the _Diagnostic and Statistical Manual_. In the latest edition, they laid out nine symptoms that a patient has to show to be diagnosed with depression – like, for example, decreased interest in pleasure or persistent low mood. For a doctor to conclude you were depressed, you had to show five of these symptoms over several weeks.

The manual was sent out to doctors across the US and they began to use it to diagnose people. However, after a while they came back to the authors and pointed out something that was bothering them. If they followed this guide, they had to diagnose every grieving person who came to them as depressed and start giving them medical treatment. If you lose someone, it turns out that these symptoms will come to you automatically. So, the doctors wanted to know, are we supposed to start drugging all the bereaved people in America?

https://www.theguardian.com/society...depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections


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## noirua (13 October 2020)




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## wayneL (14 October 2020)

Wow, I can't believe it is 5 years ago now since my darkest days.

I can confirm that I'm still recovered, despite other personality issues which some may ascribe to me for various reasons. LOL

I'm always open to lend an ear. I'm not a psych, but have been down that road.

PS noirua. I like Hothouse Flowers cover of that tune


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## noirua (12 February 2021)

__





						Grand National winner Liam Treadwell died after taking "cocktail of drugs", inquest hears
					





					www.msn.com
				



Treadwell battled with depression after he suffered a major injury which left him unconscious for two to three minutes in 2016.


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## basilio (7 April 2021)

One of the writers for The Guardian has just died from cancer. She worked and kept writing until her death and even as she dealt with the cancer was able to touch many people.

IMV this observation from the comments is worth sharing.









						'Brilliant and versatile' Observer and Guardian journalist Sarah Hughes dies at 48
					

Hughes’ work ranged from hard-hitting overseas reports, to sport and television writing as well as candid accounts of coping with cancer




					www.theguardian.com
				









HorseGas
12 hours ago

Guardian Pick
196
I remember reading Sarah’s article last year which brought a tear to my eye - so sorry to hear she’s passed away. Her message (below) struck me as important then, ever more so now:



> > It is from the depths of that knowledge that I offer the only piece of advice I can honestly give: even in these depressing times try to find some part of the day that is worth relishing whether it is a moment of beauty half-glimpsed outside, the joy found in escaping into a different world on page or screen, or the pleasure of dressing up for yourself and no one else because it makes you feel fine.
> >
> > The worst thing that you can do is wish your life away thinking of what might have been. Instead and no matter how hard or how impossible it might seem, try to enjoy at least one moment. None of us, in these most testing of times, know when it might be our last.


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## basilio (7 April 2021)

The article Sarah Hughes wrote when she was dealing the inevitability of her death was powerful. May be useful.
Take care









						‘Find a part of each day to relish’: coping with cancer and Covid
					

This year has challenged us all. But for Sarah Hughes it’s been particularly hard. Here, she talks about living with cancer – and letting in the light in the darkest of times




					www.theguardian.com


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