# The Gillard Government



## Calliope

If Oakeshott does accept Gillard's job offer as Minister for Pork-Barrelling, it will be interesting to see how this verbose clown will confine his answers in question time to four minutes. And you can be sure he will be getting plenty of questions.


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## noco

It's a Gillard Government by default. 

Less seats.
Less Primary vote.
Less two party preferred.

The Australian voters overwhelmly did not want a Labor Government.

Did Tony Abbott conspire with the independants to give Gillard Government and save him from the embarrassment of the same fate which will  happen to Ms. Gillard? A government which will eventually become disfunctional.

  If this was the case then he has outsmarted Ms. Gillard by a country mile. As Tony Windsor is destined to retire before the next election, he may have been made the sacrificial lamb. His seat will no doubt go back to the Nationals at the next election. He had nothing to lose.

We may never know the truth. But nevertheless, sit back and watch the fun unfold.

My tip, a new election within 12 months.


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## Calliope

Oakeshott's and Windsor's dream  of  "Stable Government" is pie in the sky. An online poll of SMH readers doesn't agree with them.



> Will the belated 76-74 election result lead to a stable government for Australia?
> Yes
> 28%
> No
> 52%
> Maybe
> 20%
> Total votes: 10960.Poll closes in 24 hours.




It will be entertaining to see this assortment of flaky mis-fits in action.


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## trainspotter

Anyone given any thought as to where the extra 10 billion to buy the Independents is going to come from? Hmmmmmmm ...... let me think about this. More taxes perhaps? But on WHOM?? Ohhhhhh ... that's right ... YOU !!


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## Julia

trainspotter said:


> Anyone given any thought as to where the extra 10 billion to buy the Independents is going to come from? Hmmmmmmm ...... let me think about this. More taxes perhaps? But on WHOM?? Ohhhhhh ... that's right ... YOU !!




Mr Swan has said it will come from the revenue generated by the MRRT.
Might just be a problem there, given that revenue has been revised downwards and won't cover the promises to the independents.


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## noco

Julia said:


> Mr Swan has said it will come from the revenue generated by the MRRT.
> Might just be a problem there, given that revenue has been revised downwards and won't cover the promises to the independents.




Yes Julia, from $10.5 to $2 billion. 

Swan is such a liar, he could not lie straight in bed if you paid him. He also swore black and blue there would be no CPRS during the period from 2010 to 2013. Let's see if he sticks to his word!! Brown said there would be.


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## wayneL

noco said:


> My tip, a new election within 12 months.




Over here all the money is split  between 6 and 12 months. Only mug punters are on any term longer than that, on extremely long odds,


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## Calliope

Tim Mathieson thinks it is pretty cool to be confirmed as First Bloke.



> Mr Mathieson, a hairdresser turned real estate consultant, said he had not thought about moving into The Lodge. "To be honest there has been no discussion about that," he said.
> 
> It was a momentous occasion, he said, and one he was privileged to be a part of.
> 
> "It hadn't sunk in over the last few weeks because of the campaign. Now it will sink in," he said.
> 
> "I'm the First Bloke. It's pretty cool."




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/el...ets-special-text/story-fn5zm695-1225915592575


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## Calliope

It may have slipped under the radar while all the attention was on the three stooges, but Bob Brown now has Gillard by the short and curlies. He has Bandt and Wilkie to do his bidding in the reps which gives him a lot of muscle in a minority government.

He has already vetoed Gillard's off-shore proposal for processing the boat people.


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## todster

"The Libs & Nats have a profoundly successful ability at attracting a disproportional quantity of the most embittered,politically pungent elements of Australian society as supporters-A dark,angry,belligerent underbelly that believes the only acceptable outcome of any political contest is the one they believe in."



Remind you of anyone:


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## trainspotter

Smells like a "Crikey" blogger to me??

*sniff sniff* .... Labor wafting across my nostrils at the moment.


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## springhill

todster said:


> "The Libs & Nats have a profoundly successful ability at attracting a disproportional quantity of the most embittered,politically pungent elements of Australian society as supporters-A dark,angry,belligerent underbelly that believes the only acceptable outcome of any political contest is the one they believe in."
> 
> 
> 
> Remind you of anyone:




Or the Libs seem to attract a fair days pay for a fair days wage elemet of society. Not a fair days bludge, a fair days boat trip from indonesia or a fair days surfing the coast element.


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## todster

springhill said:


> Or the Libs seem to attract a fair days pay for a fair days wage elemet of society. Not a fair days bludge, a fair days boat trip from indonesia or a fair days surfing the coast element.




Yep from the turkeys that introduced workchoices,righto mate back to the pub!


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## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> If Oakeshott does accept Gillard's job offer as Minister for Pork-Barrelling, it will be interesting to see how this verbose clown will confine his answers in question time to four minutes. And you can be sure he will be getting plenty of questions.




What I found amusing from Oakeshott's speech was that even though he thought he was teasing everyone by delaying stating which way his decision went, it was apparent from the speech itself that it could only be for the ALP. He several times mentioned "the next 3 years of government", but as I understand it, there would be no "next 3 years of government" if he voted for the Coalition, as that would have given 75/75 and a new election.

As well as the being the "minister for pork-barreling", other relevant ministryships come to mind. Minister of Procrastination, Minister of Delusions of Importance, etc.


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## springhill

todster said:


> Yep from the turkeys that introduced workchoices,righto mate back to the pub!




Haven't we swung back too far the other way? Politics is a pendulum that constantly swings too far both ways and rarely meets in the middle that is acceptable to the general public.
Workchoices a failed example? Does BER ring a bell? Or the door only swings one way?


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## trainspotter

todster said:


> Yep from the turkeys that introduced workchoices,righto mate back to the pub!




todster maaaaaaaaaaaaaaateee ... "workchoices" was only good for people 15 years and over and it is ancient history. Give it a rest. Dead and buried.


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## Some Dude

springhill said:


> Haven't we swung back too far the other way? Politics is a pendulum that constantly swings too far both ways and rarely meets in the middle that is acceptable to the general public.
> Workchoices a failed example? Does BER ring a bell? Or the door only swings one way?




It's an interesting question regarding the BER. What bell is rung for you regarding the BER, especially as a comparison for workchoices?


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## sails

todster said:


> Yep from the turkeys that introduced workchoices,righto mate back to the pub!




Todster, why are you campainging again for labor so soon? 

What's the point of going on and on about work choices when Gillard won this round?

One thing I do dread about a new election is to hear that voice droning on relentesly again....shudder


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## Calliope

Nothing will get done but it will make good entertainment

.


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## todster

sails said:


> Todster, why are you campainging again for labor so soon?
> 
> What's the point of going on and on about work choices when Gillard won this round?
> 
> One thing I do dread about a new election is to hear that voice droning on relentesly again....shudder




why do people assume if your against the Libs your a labor supporter?


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## todster

Maybe someone can explain to me why people in the bush vote Nats?
Apparently they get a raw deal even after 10 years of the coalition in office.


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## sails

todster said:


> why do people assume if your against the Libs your a labor supporter?




Because "work choices" was all we heard being droned on about negatively by labor before the election - especially the day before.  

So if you are going on negatively about "work choices" it infers labor by association.


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## sails

todster said:


> Maybe someone can explain to me why people in the bush vote Nats?
> Apparently they get a raw deal even after 10 years of the coalition in office.




And did labor correct it during their three years?


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## todster

sails said:


> Because "work choices" was all we heard being droned on about negatively by labor before the election - especially the day before.
> 
> So if you are going on negatively about "work choices" it infers labor by association.




If you were in an industry that you could be fined $22k for walking off the job you might feel the same way.
anyway I brought it up coz old mate reckons people who voted Libs believed in a fair days work for a fair days pay and if work choices got through that would be BS.
Libs will always screw the worker first.


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## todster

sails said:


> And did labor correct it during their three years?




BER,NBN is a start!


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## Mofra

sails said:


> Because "work choices" was all we heard being droned on about negatively by labor before the election - especially the day before.
> 
> So if you are going on negatively about "work choices" it infers labor by association.



Cool. I am anti-middle class welfare and pork barrelling, which sums up a distaste for both major parties just nicely


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## Calliope

Would you trust this man? He has been exposed as a rat. He has always been more Labor than National and makes a habit of ratting on his electorate for his own advancement. Gillard is welcome to him. 

For some strange reason Abbott has asked his members to go easy on him. Does Oakeshott have something on Abbott. Abbott said last Tuesday that the two stooges acted "in good faith." Anybody so gullible cannot aspire to be PM.




> Prominent Nationals Senator Barnaby Joyce has poured scorn on independent Rob Oakeshott over claims he sought a NSW ministerial post when he was a state member.
> 
> Mr Joyce described as "rubbish" a comment by Mr Oakeshott that he could not recall the conversation that he had in 2007 with NSW Premier Morris Iemma about becoming a minister.
> 
> Reports in News Limited papers allege Mr Oakeshott - who is set to reveal today if he will accept an offer from Prime Minister Julia Gillard for a regional affairs role - pushed for the state role. At the time, Mr Oakeshott was the state independent member for Port Macquarie, having defected from the Nationals.




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/joyce-pours-scorn-on-rubbish-oakeshott-20100910-153n8.html


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## Logique

Calliope said:


> For some strange reason Abbott has asked his members to go easy on him. Does Oakeshott have something on Abbott. Abbott said last Tuesday that the two stooges acted "in good faith." Anybody so gullible cannot aspire to be PM.http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/joyce-pours-scorn-on-rubbish-oakeshott-20100910-153n8.html



No I think it's smart politics Calliope. Mr Oakeshott seems to need little help in doing himself over, no need for the Coalition to expend any political capital on him. 

More than anyone else in the parliament, the Member for Lyne's political future hangs on the success of the rainbow coalition govt. I might also recall a comment I made a few weeks ago - he looks the successor to Cheryl Kernot.


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## Julia

noco said:


> It's a Gillard Government by default.
> 
> Less seats.
> Less Primary vote.
> Less two party preferred.



Goodness, noco, you're fortunate not to be chased up and slammed by Timmy here for suggesting the above on the 2PP!  




todster said:


> "The Libs & Nats have a profoundly successful ability at attracting a disproportional quantity of the most embittered,politically pungent elements of Australian society as supporters-A dark,angry,belligerent underbelly that believes the only acceptable outcome of any political contest is the one they believe in."



Again, here's a statement in quotation marks with no attribution.
Some considerable double standards in the moderation of this site recently.



bellenuit said:


> What I found amusing from Oakeshott's speech was that even though he thought he was teasing everyone by delaying stating which way his decision went, it was apparent from the speech itself that it could only be for the ALP. He several times mentioned "the next 3 years of government", but as I understand it, there would be no "next 3 years of government" if he voted for the Coalition, as that would have given 75/75 and a new election.
> 
> As well as the being the "minister for pork-barreling", other relevant ministryships come to mind. Minister of Procrastination, Minister of Delusions of Importance, etc.




And it would seem that his negotiations included the offer of a Cabinet position in return for his support.  
Definitely all about self interest which I suppose should surprise no one.


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## todster

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"

William Congreve    1697


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## Logique

My bolds.
Newly elected Tasmanian federal independent, Andrew 'Sovereign Risk' Wilkie, Denison's finest.
http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2010/09/11/Wilkie_threatens_to_block_mine_tax_511713.html


> *Wilkie threatens to block mine tax*
> Saturday, September 11, 2010  » 07:33am
> http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2010/09/11/Wilkie_threatens_to_block_mine_tax_511713.html
> 
> Independent Andrew Wilkie has threatened the Gillard government's mining tax, warning he will block it *unless it is fundamentally redrawn and possibly expanded to capture profits from more mining companies.*
> 
> Mr Wilkie, the first independent to pledge his support to Labor in the hung parliament, says the proposed mining tax is 'unsatisfactory', must be redesigned from scratch and should be included in next year's proposed tax summit *along with the rate of GST*.
> 
> His position sets up a showdown with Prime Minister Julia Gillard and Treasurer Wayne Swan, who wants the mining tax excluded from the summit and has refused to canvass changes to the GST.
> 
> Mr Wilkie told The Weekend Australian that unless the mineral resources rent tax was changed he would oppose its legislation if it were introduced into the House of Representatives.
> 
> 'I think we need to go back to the drawing board because the MRRT as it is currently designed is unsatisfactory,' he said.
> 
> Although he would not specify his preferred changes to the MRRT, saying experts should be consulted, *Mr Wilkie suggested the tax could be applied to a wider number of mining companies*.
> 
> *Mr Wilkie, who said the nation's richest companies could pay more tax*, told The Weekend Australian he would write to the prime minister to urge the inclusion of both the mining tax and the GST at the tax summit.


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## noco

The two assassins Shorten and Arbib have been rewarded.


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## Julia

noco said:


> The two assassins Shorten and Arbib have been rewarded.



What has been given to Arbib?
Surprise to see Penny Wong made Finance Minister.
Can't see any reference to what is to happen with Chris Bowen, who I'd have thought was one of their best performers.

It's hard to imagine the atmosphere around the Cabinet table being anything other than, um, a bit tense.

If the two top positions had been occupied by Lindsay Tanner and Stephen Smith, I could have voted for Labor.


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## noco

Julia said:


> What has been given to Arbib?
> Surprise to see Penny Wong made Finance Minister.
> Can't see any reference to what is to happen with Chris Bowen, who I'd have thought was one of their best performers.
> 
> It's hard to imagine the atmosphere around the Cabinet table being anything other than, um, a bit tense.
> 
> If the two top positions had been occupied by Lindsay Tanner and Stephen Smith, I could have voted for Labor.




Apology Julia, Arbib is on the outter.

Shorten is assitant treasurer and superannuation.

Bowen to Immigration.


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## IFocus

> Bill Shorten, has been promoted to the outer ministry as assistant treasurer and minister for financial services and superannuation.
> 
> Mark Arbib has been given "greatly increased responsibilities" for indigenous employment and economic development, social housing and sport.





http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/7924510/pm-gillard-rewards-rudd-plotters/


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## robusta

Well it's going to be a very interesting time. Julia got there promising a consensus style government and she is going to need her people skills in overdrive to get anything done.


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## noco

Is it a Conspiracy or just a coincidence?

Rudd is appointed as Foreign Minister on Saturday 11/09/2010 and is on the Air Force jet today headed for the United Nations to meet with the UN Secretary General Mr.Moon. He is not yet officially swarn in by the Governor General.

How could he arrange such a trip in 48 hours unless of course it was organised some time back?

Was his demise as Prime Minister a conspiracy by Rudd, Gillard and the faceless men for a leg into his long term ambition of becoming the UN Secretary General? May be the opening is already there.

Arch Bevis predicted Rudd would resign within 6 months, so maybe he knows something we don't.

Can't help feeling suspicious of the plotting that goes on in the Labor Party. Maybe we will see it all unfold in due course.

Where are you GG, you often seem to have your finger on the pulse? Please do some sleuth work for ASF.


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## Slipperz

Step daughter of the prime minister of the commonwealth of australia doing a titty mag

Nice 

Shows how much control she has over the first bloke and his daughter.

Why should she control the nation if she makes us all look this bad.


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## trainspotter

Slipperz said:


> Step daughter of the prime minister of the commonwealth of australia doing a titty mag
> 
> Nice
> 
> Shows how much control she has over the first bloke and his daughter.
> 
> Why should she control the nation if she makes us all look this bad.




Pure class here.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ps-for-mag-shoot/story-e6freuzr-1225919900439


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## todster

Slipperz said:


> Step daughter of the prime minister of the commonwealth of australia doing a titty mag
> 
> Nice
> 
> Shows how much control she has over the first bloke and his daughter.
> 
> Why should she control the nation if she makes us all look this bad.




Gee control over a 31 year old daughter,you must be an Abbott clone.


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## Slipperz

todster said:


> Gee control over a 31 year old daughter,you must be an Abbott clone.




At least his daughters have some sense of decorum.

Yes at times national interests overide personal interests.

Getting your t1ts out for zoo is not in anyone's interests in this situation imho.

 I hope the independants that cosied up to the reds in canberra go to the next Zoo magazine foam party with a few hookers for some photo ops.

Just for consistency.


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## nunthewiser

I reckon she,s great


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## Tink

noco said:


> Is it a Conspiracy or just a coincidence?
> 
> Rudd is appointed as Foreign Minister on Saturday 11/09/2010 and is on the Air Force jet today headed for the United Nations to meet with the UN Secretary General Mr.Moon. He is not yet officially swarn in by the Governor General.
> 
> How could he arrange such a trip in 48 hours unless of course it was organised some time back?
> 
> Was his demise as Prime Minister a conspiracy by Rudd, Gillard and the faceless men for a leg into his long term ambition of becoming the UN Secretary General? May be the opening is already there.
> 
> Arch Bevis predicted Rudd would resign within 6 months, so maybe he knows something we don't.
> 
> Can't help feeling suspicious of the plotting that goes on in the Labor Party. Maybe we will see it all unfold in due course.
> 
> Where are you GG, you often seem to have your finger on the pulse? Please do some sleuth work for ASF.




I saw this as all organised to win the election as they knew their polls were down. 

I didnt see it as 'the knifing him in the back' etc etc as many have said, I saw it as all talked through and worked out for the Labor Party.

I am not saying whether that is right or wrong, but we can do that as we vote in the party, not the leader, not like the US


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## moXJO

trainspotter said:


> Pure class here.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ps-for-mag-shoot/story-e6freuzr-1225919900439




Bogans are now firmly in control.


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## noco

noco said:


> Is it a Conspiracy or just a coincidence?
> 
> Rudd is appointed as Foreign Minister on Saturday 11/09/2010 and is on the Air Force jet today headed for the United Nations to meet with the UN Secretary General Mr.Moon. He is not yet officially swarn in by the Governor General.
> 
> How could he arrange such a trip in 48 hours unless of course it was organised some time back?
> 
> Was his demise as Prime Minister a conspiracy by Rudd, Gillard and the faceless men for a leg into his long term ambition of becoming the UN Secretary General? May be the opening is already there.
> 
> Arch Bevis predicted Rudd would resign within 6 months, so maybe he knows something we don't.
> 
> Can't help feeling suspicious of the plotting that goes on in the Labor Party. Maybe we will see it all unfold in due course.
> 
> Where are you GG, you often seem to have your finger on the pulse? Please do some sleuth work for ASF.




Correction:
On Monday morning 13/09/2010, Sky News showed a photo of Kevin Rudd waving as he boarded the Air Force jet and stated Rudd was on his way to the UN. This was obviously a misconception on behalf of Sky News and many would have thought the same as I, that what Sky News had shown was fact.

He now leaves on Friday on a 747 and not the Air Force jet as first indicated. Rudd will be sworn in by the GG before he leaves.

However, it does not detract from the fact his eagerness to enter the UN as soon as possible. 

A man on a personal mission to fullfill his ambitions at tax payers expense.


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## todster

noco said:


> Correction:
> On Monday morning 13/09/2010, Sky News showed a photo of Kevin Rudd waving as he boarded the Air Force jet and stated Rudd was on his way to the UN. This was obviously a misconception on behalf of Sky News and many would have thought the same as I, that what Sky News had shown was fact.
> 
> He now leaves on Friday on a 747 and not the Air Force jet as first indicated. Rudd will be sworn in by the GG before he leaves.
> 
> However, it does not detract from the fact his eagerness to enter the UN as soon as possible.
> 
> A man on a personal mission to fullfill his ambitions at tax payers expense.




Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a good story


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## Calliope

I listened to Madonna King on AM this morning in her weekly interview with Craig Emerson and George Brandis. I got the impression that the Coalition has the ability to make life very difficult for Gillard's government.  Emerson sounded like a fool, and refused to answer (or didn't know) whether Labor has any important legislation slated for the new parliament.

I think Labor will attempt do nothing until their Green partners control the senate, and will be on the defensive.


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## noco

Calliope said:


> I listened to Madonna King on AM this morning in her weekly interview with Craig Emerson and George Brandis. I got the impression that the Coalition has the ability to make life very difficult for Gillard's government.  Emerson sounded like a fool, and refused to answer (or didn't know) whether Labor has any important legislation slated for the new parliament.
> 
> I think Labor will attempt do nothing until their Green partners control the senate, and will be on the defensive.




If they last that long Calliope. Can't wait for the games to begin on the 28th Sep. 
It looks like the NBN will be the coalition's main target and Malcom Turnbull has not wasted any time.


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## Calliope

noco said:


> If they last that long Calliope. Can't wait for the games to begin on the 28th Sep.
> It looks like the NBN will be the coalition's main target and Malcom Turnbull has not wasted any time.




Yes, noco, when you consider Labor's complete inability to manage any infrastructure project, Turnbull should have a ball with this one. It will be made all the easier while that boofhead Senator Conroy is Communications minister.


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## todster

Calliope said:


> Yes, noco, when you consider Labor's complete inability to manage any infrastructure project, Turnbull should have a ball with this one. It will be made all the easier while that boofhead Senator Conroy is Communications minister.




I live 5 minutes drive from the city centre of one of the fastest growing areas in West Oz.
After numerous visits from Telstra i gave up on ADSL,unreliable and painfully slow at best.
Now opted for wireless bigpond that works only at one end of the house.
Can one of the dynamic duo give me a little info on what the Coalition have in policy on broadband.


Not Tonys coke cans and fishing line network!


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## IFocus

Interesting Abbott gave Malcolm Communications remember Malcolm will challenge for the leadership should the numbers stack up sooner or later they will.

A very large % of voters want NBN and I suspect that includes Malcolm so a political move to get Malcolm into a negative campaign re NBN Abbott no doubt hoping  some negativity sticks to Malcolm a rival down the track some where.

This is some thing Malcolm will understand as he will attack around the numbers and facts as he see's it and  not just keep repeating some negative BS slogan he will try to maintain a high degree of policy integrity .

This will set him apart from the rest of the shadow front bench and Abbott will have to work hard to see that Malcolm fails.

Abbott remains as the biggest threat to Australia's future as he promises to  disrupt and tear down an Australian government.  

Gerard Henderson (has Liberal bias) makes a few points worth noting much to my surprise.



> Myth 1. Kevin Rudd's replacement by Julia Gillard in June was a coup enacted by faceless men. In fact, coups do not happen in Western-style democracies. They either initiate or reflect an autocratic form of government. In Australia, incumbent prime ministers - on both sides of politics - have been replaced in the past. A similar fate was suffered by Billy Hughes in 1923, Robert Menzies in 1941, John Gorton in 1971 and Bob Hawke in 1991.
> 
> *What's more, none of those who moved against Rudd were faceless*. This is a term that comes from a time when virtually unknown delegates to the ALP's national conference determined Labor's policy. Most of those who decided that Rudd had to go were elected politicians - Bill Shorten, Gary Gray, Don Farrell and David Feeney. The best known of the trade union officials who moved against Rudd was the high-profile Paul Howes.






> Myth 2. The Gillard government is illegitimate. Not so. Labor has a working majority of two in the House of Representatives, even if only 72 out of 76 MPs are ALP members. The United Australia Party government led by Robert Menzies after the 1940 election was legitimate, even though it had to rely on the support of two conservative independents.




He also sticks the boot into Labor



> Myth 4. Labor's defeat was due to the fact that, in the words of Rod Cameron on Lateline last week, it ran the "worst federal campaign" he has ever seen. This self-serving mythology overlooks the fact Abbott ran an effective campaign from the time he became Liberal leader in December.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/by/gerard-henderson


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## Julia

IFocus, I understand that your view is always coloured by your anti-Coalition bias, but I think it's a bit unreasonable to suggest that Tony Abbott has put Malcolm Turnbull in a p/f simply to see him fail.

On the contrary, if the start he made today on Radio National's "Breakfast" is anything to go by, Mr Turnbull was very impressive, and Senator Conroy might at last need to engage in some genuine cost/benefit analysis to offer taxpayers before committing $42 billion (or likely much more than that in the end) to the NBN.

As Mr Turnbull pointed out, it would be just inconceivable that any public company would propose any scheme costing anything like that much without first presenting to its shareholders a rationale for why they may expect the results suggested for the money outlaid.

Senator Conroy has thus far got away quite outrageously with committing taxpayer funds to a project which of course people like the idea of when they struggle for a connection etc, but hopefully Mr Turnbull will be holding him to account for the valid spending of every taxpayer dollar.

Separately, yes, no doubt Mr Turnbull still has his eye on the main prize eventually, but he will know he has no chance of getting there unless he scores some genuine runs on the board first.  His opposition to Conroy is a perfect opportunity for him to do this.


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## IFocus

Julia said:


> IFocus, I understand that your view is always coloured by your anti-Coalition bias, but I think it's a bit unreasonable to suggest that Tony Abbott has put Malcolm Turnbull in a p/f simply to see him fail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More anti Abbott currently but also have little respect for the remaining Howardites I believe they are holding back Australian politics generally as the Coalalition needs renewal not the same old same old
> 
> Annabel Crabb alludes to it here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is entirely understandable that the Coalition - having survived through the events of the past three years and indeed coming very close to prospering - chooses to pause at this point for a moment of peace.
> 
> Understandable, but probably unwise.
> 
> A very similar thing happened to Kim Beazley's Labor opposition after the 1998 election, in which it very nearly regained government from a rattled, first-term John Howard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/15/3012246.htm?site=thedrum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, if the start he made today on Radio National's "Breakfast" is anything to go by, Mr Turnbull was very impressive, and Senator Conroy might at last need to engage in some genuine cost/benefit analysis to offer taxpayers before committing $42 billion (or likely much more than that in the end) to the NBN.
> 
> As Mr Turnbull pointed out, it would be just inconceivable that any public company would propose any scheme costing anything like that much without first presenting to its shareholders a rationale for why they may expect the results suggested for the money outlaid.
> 
> Senator Conroy has thus far got away quite outrageously with committing taxpayer funds to a project which of course people like the idea of when they struggle for a connection etc, but hopefully Mr Turnbull will be holding him to account for the valid spending of every taxpayer dollar.
> 
> Separately, yes, no doubt Mr Turnbull still has his eye on the main prize eventually, but he will know he has no chance of getting there unless he scores some genuine runs on the board first.  His opposition to Conroy is a perfect opportunity for him to do this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conroy is a dud and Malcolm will run rings around him.
> 
> Only saving for Conroy is the NBN  CEO Mike Quigley who is very very good who will deliver the NBN on time and below budget Labor will have nothing to do with it some thing Abbott wont want Australians to know.
> 
> 
> Alan Kohler sums up Abbotts political manoeuvrings better than me
> 
> 
> "The NBN may crush Turnbull"
> 
> Tony Abbott has quite possibly given Malcolm Turnbull the worst job in the parliament.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His task is to constantly complain that something he likes and agrees with, and that most voters will like and agree with, is too expensive. He will no doubt attack this job with flair and gusto and get a fair share of media attention, at least to begin with, but the Shadow Minister for Communications and Broadband is travelling on a train to nowhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday he was repeating the ridiculous line that the government has undertaken $43 billion of expenditure without a detailed business plan or cost benefit study, which has been the opposition's line throughout the campaign. But what do they call the $25 million, 546-page, implementation study by McKinsey and Co and KPMG, released publicly on May 6?
> 
> And they must know that Quigley's team has completed a detailed business plan that is slightly different from the government study and which will also soon be publicly released.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.businessspectator.com.au...urnbull-pd20100915-9ASWA?OpenDocument&src=kgb
Click to expand...


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> IFocus, I understand that your view is always coloured by your anti-Coalition bias, but I think it's a bit unreasonable to suggest that Tony Abbott has put Malcolm Turnbull in a p/f simply to see him fail.
> 
> On the contrary, if the start he made today on Radio National's "Breakfast" is anything to go by, Mr Turnbull was very impressive, and Senator Conroy might at last need to engage in some genuine cost/benefit analysis to offer taxpayers before committing $42 billion (or likely much more than that in the end) to the NBN.
> 
> As Mr Turnbull pointed out, it would be just inconceivable that any public company would propose any scheme costing anything like that much without first presenting to its shareholders a rationale for why they may expect the results suggested for the money outlaid.
> 
> Senator Conroy has thus far got away quite outrageously with committing taxpayer funds to a project which of course people like the idea of when they struggle for a connection etc, but hopefully Mr Turnbull will be holding him to account for the valid spending of every taxpayer dollar.
> 
> Separately, yes, no doubt Mr Turnbull still has his eye on the main prize eventually, but he will know he has no chance of getting there unless he scores some genuine runs on the board first.  His opposition to Conroy is a perfect opportunity for him to do this.




Yes Julia, I agree. I think Turnbull will force Conroy to reveal a lot more otherwise Conroy will lose any credibilty he ever had,which isn't much I might add. 
Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand from reports that Tasmania is up and running. We don't appear to have been given much information of the success or failure. 
How many connections have been made?
How much does each connection cost?
Is the Government getting any return from the capital outlay?
There seems to be a bit of secrecy about Tasmania some how. If the Government has had good response, I'm sure they would have been gloating about by now.


----------



## Julia

Thanks for the response, IFocus.  I guess we'll see in time.  You may well be right, but at this stage I find it hard to believe Mr Abbott would be deliberately downplaying his chances of success.

That said, I'd have preferred to see Joe Hockey put to the Shadow Communications role and Malcolm Turnbull as Shadow Treasurer.  Mr Hockey's performance in the campaign was woeful.

Re Annabel Crabb, charming and attractive though she is, her own political bias is always very apparent so I take what she says with the proverbial grain of salt. 

If you'd read "The Australian"'s account of Mr Turnbull's forthcoming role, you'd find a quite different interpretation.


----------



## Logique

I see no conspiracies here. Turnbull has the skill set and articulacy to take this on. He is the logical choice. Doing well helps rehabilitate him with the Liberal right. 

Conroy's style is propagandizing and sanctimonious nanny-state autocracy. He is overdue for the application of some political accountability.

It's going to be fun watching Malcolm burst the bubble of Senator 'Internet Filter' Conroy.


----------



## wayneL

Logique said:


> *Labor's* style is propagandizing and sanctimonious nanny-state autocracy.




A simple (and accurate) extrapolation.


----------



## explod

The last 10 posts on this thread are virtually off topic.   Talk about a heap of lost souls drowning in their sorrows.

*Get over it.*    Turnbull et al. are not in goverment.  Gillard is the topic, and the Government is showing all the early signs of doing well.


----------



## springhill

explod said:


> The last 10 posts on this thread are virtually off topic.   Talk about a heap of lost souls drowning in their sorrows.
> 
> *Get over it.*    Turnbull et al. are not in goverment.  Gillard is the topic, and the Government is showing all the early signs of doing well.




Showing signs of doing well? They haven't done anything yet! They've only just been sworn in.
Oh except i heard Kruddy mouthing off about how we may fail to get a seat on the Security Council and how he is going to strongarm us in there. BS we won't get a seat, we follow the US everywhere they go, that's enough leverage to get us in. Once again Rudd full of p!ss and wind, and trying to make himself look like the saviour. Wow he is scary when he talks tough though!


----------



## todster

explod said:


> The last 10 posts on this thread are virtually off topic.   Talk about a heap of lost souls drowning in their sorrows.
> 
> *Get over it.*    Turnbull et al. are not in goverment.  Gillard is the topic, and the Government is showing all the early signs of doing well.




Maybe you could issue a few move on notices,if that dont work go the pepper spray


----------



## Calliope

I'm not surprised that lazy opportunist, Oakeshott wants to be Speaker in the Gillard government.



> *ROB Oakeshott has not just stuck his hand up for the Speaker's job.
> 
> He has stuck his arm out to stop, and step on to, a lavishly appointed gravy train that rivals the Orient Express for comfort and luxury.
> 
> The presiding officers of the parliament, the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President of the Senate, receive salaries equivalent to those of cabinet members of around $238,000 annually before electorate allowance.
> 
> They enjoy grander offices than any minister, complete with private dining rooms and garden courtyards, travel and function schedules and opportunities to mix with VIPs that rival the Prime Minister's, but with few of the responsibilities*.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...erk-rob-up-a-bit/story-fn59niix-1225924286891


----------



## explod

todster said:


> Maybe you could issue a few move on notices,if that dont work go the pepper spray




Maybe you could elaborate on what you are getting at there todster.



> springhill
> 
> BS we won't get a seat, we follow the US everywhere they go, that's enough leverage to get us in. Once again Rudd full of p!ss and wind, and trying to make himself look like the saviour. Wow he is scary when he talks tough though!




Yeh just like little Johnny did (all the way with George) and is probably why Kruddy got booted too.  But someone has to do the crawlin for the country I suppose.

Good to see Gillard delegating those matters of less importance so that she can actually cincentrate on running the country properly.

As said the signs are reasonably good at this early stage.

Interesting times indeed.


----------



## wayneL

explod said:


> The last 10 posts on this thread are virtually off topic.   Talk about a heap of lost souls drowning in their sorrows.
> 
> *Get over it.*    Turnbull et al. are not in goverment.  Gillard is the topic, and the Government is showing all the early signs of doing well.




Ahahaha!

Discussion of this government cannot be complete without discussing the next election... which will be soon. Hence the direction of discussion.


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> Ahahaha!
> 
> Discussion of this government cannot be complete without discussing the next election... which will be soon. Hence the direction of discussion.




Absolutely agree with your prediction but it has nothing to do with a "Gillard Government"


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> Absolutely agree with your prediction but it has nothing to do with a "Gillard Government"




I suspect you have the ingrained habit of trying to force people to "move on."


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> I suspect you have the ingrained habit of trying to force people to "move on."




Still do not know what you are talking about.  My background is fine art in which I hold higher degrees.


----------



## todster

explod said:


> Still do not know what you are talking about.  My background is fine art in which I hold higher degrees.




What do you say to a person with an art degree?


----------



## todster

Big mac and fries please


----------



## Julia

springhill said:


> Showing signs of doing well? They haven't done anything yet! They've only just been sworn in.
> Oh except i heard Kruddy mouthing off about how we may fail to get a seat on the Security Council and how he is going to strongarm us in there. BS we won't get a seat, we follow the US everywhere they go, that's enough leverage to get us in. Once again Rudd full of p!ss and wind, and trying to make himself look like the saviour. Wow he is scary when he talks tough though!



Listening to a radio broadcast yesterday of Mr Rudd's press conference, including his chagrin about the UN thing, made me realise how blissful it has been to have him off the airwaves for a few weeks.

Even Ms Gillard's ghastly nasal twang is preferable to Kev in his best didactic mode.


----------



## Calliope

Gillard on Oakeshott as Speaker;

"I'm very happy to say that I think Mr Oakeshott obviously has the skills and attributes necessary," she said.

I can't imagine what his skills are but I guess one of his attributes is that he hates the Coalition.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Gillard on Oakeshott as Speaker;
> 
> "I'm very happy to say that I think Mr Oakeshott obviously has the skills and attributes necessary," she said.
> 
> I can't imagine what his skills are but I guess one of his attributes is that he hates the Coalition.




 I don't believe Oaheshott has been in parliament long enough to be speaker. I should imagine the speaker would just about have to know the constitution and rules of parliament off by heart, particularly when the speaker is challenged by Christopher Pyne or Anthony Albanesie.

Oaheshott will have to burn the midnight oil to catch up before the 28th. Even Harry Jenkins came unstuck a few times.


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> Gillard on Oakeshott as Speaker;
> 
> "I'm very happy to say that I think Mr Oakeshott obviously has the skills and attributes necessary," she said.
> 
> I can't imagine what his skills are but I guess one of his attributes is that he hates the Coalition.




You dont' need any skills to handle the rabble of our parliament.

He'll do fine with all the mugs.

Probably have his little pc and google it all.

Hope you are all upgrading the vegie patch.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Gillard on Oakeshott as Speaker;
> 
> "I'm very happy to say that I think Mr Oakeshott obviously has the skills and attributes necessary," she said.
> 
> I can't imagine what his skills are but I guess one of his attributes is that he hates the Coalition.



I'm blown away by this bloke and his quite amazing egocentricity.
The irony of someone who wanted time limits on questions at question time but who is probably the most loquacious member of the house, now wanting to hold sway over all his fellow parliamentarians is just astonishing to me.
Talk about someone determined not to waste his one opportunity for fame!
Hope absolutely he does not become speaker.  He needs to put back in his box imo.



noco said:


> I don't believe Oaheshott has been in parliament long enough to be speaker. I should imagine the speaker would just about have to know the constitution and rules of parliament off by heart, particularly when the speaker is challenged by Christopher Pyne or Anthony Albanesie.
> 
> Oaheshott will have to burn the midnight oil to catch up before the 28th. Even Harry Jenkins came unstuck a few times.



Agree.  I'd like to see Harry Jenkins continue in the role.

Anyway, how can Oakshott justify to his constituents being Speaker?  Wouldn't this mean he would hardly be representing them in the House?
What a poser!


----------



## Logique

We thought the election was entertaining! This is just going to go on and on isn't it. 

I want to be Speaker, but only if I'm paired [cake and eat it too]. Can you imagine this guy as Speaker during a fiery Question Time. Sell tickets.

Joins Wilkie on the one-termer benches.



> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...l-could-collapse/story-fn59niix-1225925194373
> *Rob Oakeshott warns goodwill of parliamentary reform deal could collapse*
> 
> *ROB Oakeshott has accused the Coalition of reneging on parliamentary reforms*, a move that could lead to a "Mexican stand-off" when parliament sits.
> The independent MP came out swinging today, warning that the goodwill created during negotiations over parliamentary reform which led to the formation of the Gillard minority government was on the brink of collapse.
> 
> Julia Gillard has also accused the opposition of trying to break the deal, after a dispute over whether Mr Oakeshott could serve as Speaker and still retain his right to vote in parliament.
> 
> The issue threatens to come to a head when parliament resumes for the first time since the election on September 28.
> 
> Mr Oakeshott today took issue with *Liberal frontbencher Christopher Pyne's view, expressed yesterday, that the Speaker could not paired with another MP* because he did not have a deliberative vote (as opposed to a casting vote) in the House of Representatives.


----------



## Mofra

Julia said:


> Listening to a radio broadcast yesterday of Mr Rudd's press conference, including his chagrin about the UN thing, made me realise how blissful it has been to have him off the airwaves for a few weeks.
> 
> Even Ms Gillard's ghastly nasal twang is preferable to Kev in his best didactic mode.



It's always best to highlight statements the entire ASF community can rally around


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> I want to be Speaker, but only if I'm paired [cake and eat it too]. Can you imagine this guy as Speaker during a fiery Question Time. Sell tickets.




Oakeshott is the Jason Akermanis of politics. He'll do anything, or say anything to stay in the spotlight.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Oakeshott is the Jason Akermanis of politics. He'll do anything, or say anything to stay in the spotlight.




I think he will fall from grace at the next election.


----------



## noco

Julia Gillard states all her promises before the election is now out the window.

Sound of shades from Peter Garrett after 2007, who stated now that Labor is in power, all their polices will change.

Swan said there would be no CPRS during the Labor Party term 2010 to 2013.Now Gillard wants to bring it back on  because of a statement by Marius Kloppers.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> Julia Gillard states all her promises before the election is now out the window.
> 
> Sound of shades from Peter Garrett after 2007, who stated now that Labor is in power, all their polices will change.
> 
> Swan said there would be no CPRS during the Labor Party term 2010 to 2013.Now Gillard wants to bring it back on  because of a statement by Marius Kloppers.




Here's a link from the SMH on Gillard's change of mind: *All bets are off, says PM*


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Here's a link from the SMH on Gillard's change of mind: *All bets are off, says PM*






> On Thursday Ms Gillard left open the prospect of a carbon tax as a way of tackling climate change, an option she ruled out before the election.



It would be helpful if representatives of the media did their homework.

Ms Gillard did not rule out a carbon tax before the election (although Wayne Swan did during this term under intense questioning on the 7:30 Report in the final week of the campaign).

Just prior to the election, Julia stated, if returned, Labor would legislate a carbon price this term to take effect next term. 

Labor's intention has always been to introduce a price on carbon. The only difference now is thay may get to introduce it sooner with the support of the independents and Greens.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Here's a link from the SMH on Gillard's change of mind: *All bets are off, says PM*




Marius Kloppers (BHP) has a bigger interest in the largest uranium mine in the world than he has in coal, so why would he not push for a CPRS.

Get rid of the coal industry and go nuclear to sell more uranium. He is not really interested in climate change or the effects CO2 emmissions have on "GLOBAL WARMING".


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> It would be helpful if representatives of the media did their homework.
> 
> Ms Gillard did not rule out a carbon tax before the election (although Wayne Swan did during this term under intense questioning on the 7:30 Report in the final week of the campaign).
> 
> Just prior to the election, Julia stated, if returned, Labor would legislate a carbon price this term to take effect next term.
> 
> Labor's intention has always been to introduce a price on carbon. The only difference now is they may get to introduce it sooner with the support of the independents and Greens.




Only the other day, I saw a news clip on more than one TV channel of Gillard dressed in her white suit, pearls & lots of makeup (as she dressed before the election) stating clearly there would be no carbon tax in this next term if she were elected.  I think they said Ms Gillard made this proclamation five days before the election.

lol - what am I missing, drsmith?


----------



## todster

non core promise


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Only the other day, I saw a news clip on more than one TV channel of Gillard dressed in her white suit, pearls & lots of makeup (as she dressed before the election) stating clearly there would be no carbon tax in this next term if she were elected.  I think they said Ms Gillard made this proclamation five days before the election.
> 
> lol - what am I missing, drsmith?



No carbon tax this term (2010-2013), but legislated this term to start next term (2013+).  That's what she stated on the eve of the election (1 to 2 days before polling day).

Those who voted Labor voted for a carbon tax.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Marius Kloppers (BHP) has a bigger interest in the largest uranium mine in the world than he has in coal, so why would he not push for a CPRS.
> 
> Get rid of the coal industry and go nuclear to sell more uranium. He is not really interested in climate change or the effects CO2 emmissions have on "GLOBAL WARMING".



Mr Kloppers was keen to make clear that he thought consumers should pay more as a result of a price being put on carbon.
But at the same time, he was equally clear that he expected any costs attached to measures taken by BHP would be fully rebated to the company by the taxpayer.

Fine for him on his multi million dollar income.  Some of the low income earners of this country who are already struggling, will not be so delighted to think BHP will continue to flourish while they have the added impost of a carbon tax affecting their electricity and other costs.

Can't help thinking his statement may be the result of a condition of the resource tax agreement so happily agreed with the government by BHP, RIO and XStrata, though Rio's Mr Albanese is noticeably quiet and so far not supporting Mr Klopper's advice to government.


----------



## derty

noco said:


> Marius Kloppers (BHP) has a bigger interest in the largest uranium mine in the world than he has in coal, so why would he not push for a CPRS.
> 
> Get rid of the coal industry and go nuclear to sell more uranium. He is not really interested in climate change or the effects CO2 emmissions have on "GLOBAL WARMING".



Did you even have a look to see what BHP produces before you blurted that out?

For the 2008 financial year BHP produced:
115Mt met and thermal coal combined at the current price of around $90/tonne is about *$10.4 billion dollars*.

4144 tonnes of uranium oxide = 8.3M lb U oxide at current price of around $50/lb = *$415 million dollars*.

Only a bit over an order of magnitude incorrect. 

FYI Olympic Dam isn't a uranium mine, it's a copper mine with a uranium by product.


----------



## noco

derty said:


> Did you even have a look to see what BHP produces before you blurted that out?
> 
> For the 2008 financial year BHP produced:
> 115Mt met and thermal coal combined at the current price of around $90/tonne is about *$10.4 billion dollars*.
> 
> 4144 tonnes of uranium oxide = 8.3M lb U oxide at current price of around $50/lb = *$415 million dollars*.
> 
> Only a bit over an order of magnitude incorrect.
> 
> FYI Olympic Dam isn't a uranium mine, it's a copper mine with a uranium by product.




Derty, you have quoted figures back in 2008. If you had done a little bit more research, you will note coal is only 8% of BHP's revenue. Most of it is exported, so why would they worry about a CPRS?

Further more they are saying we should look beyond coal. If you had carried out some more research you would have learned BHP are about to develope the second largest uranium mine in Australlia at Yeelirrie in WA where BHP will produce 5000 tonnes of uranium per year. Urnaium prices are destined to rise in price as world demands increase and coal decreases due to CO2 emmissions. So Kloppers may not be as silly as he looks.

Dety, if you have not got the message by now, I'm afraid I can't help you any more.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/move-on-climate-bhp-billiton-urges-20100915-15cn4.html


----------



## Knobby22

noco said:


> Derty, you have quoted figures back in 2008. If you had done a little bit more research, you will note coal is only 8% of BHP's revenue. Most of it is exported, so why would they worry about a CPRS?
> 
> Further more they are saying we should look beyond coal. If you had carried out some more research you would have learned BHP are about to develope the second largest uranium mine in Australlia at Yeelirrie in WA where BHP will produce 5000 tonnes of uranium per year. Urnaium prices are destined to rise in price as world demands increase and coal decreases due to CO2 emmissions. So Kloppers may not be as silly as he looks.
> 
> Dety, if you have not got the message by now, I'm afraid I can't help you any more.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/move-on-climate-bhp-billiton-urges-20100915-15cn4.html




Did you ever think Noco that Kloppers wants to do the right thing by the world and Australia. He is not a automaton only caring about money. Also he is retiring soon so he knows that there will be little to gain/lost for him personally as CEO.

I think you should take a good hard look at what he said again and pretend he is human with a family and has looked into climate change and realises the world and Australia need to act.

On Julie's comment, a carbon tax is necessary however the tax should be fed back in to tax cuts/low income earners so the result is not too troubling for the Australian people but the price signals case behaviour change. This can take place however the Libs won't do this if they can avoid it.


----------



## Logique

Any discussion on a price for carbon should include the option of nuclear power stations, but I  bet Senator Sarah Hansen-Young and the Greens, and the ALP Left - will attempt to dictate just that. 

Fine to have a discussion on a price for carbon, but let's have all of the options on the table. Including measures for social justice for the ensuing cost of living fallout (pun intended). Haven't heard much from Marius Kloppers or the Greens on that subject yet!

Willing to be bet that 'working families' won't be inconvenienced in any way.

And BHP have got the uranium.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Any discussion on a price for carbon should include the option of nuclear power stations, but I  bet Senator Sarah Hansen-Young and the Greens, and the ALP Left - will attempt to dictate just that.
> 
> Fine to have a discussion on a price for carbon, but let's have all of the options on the table. Including measures for social justice for the ensuing cost of living fallout (pun intended). Haven't heard much from Marius Kloppers or the Greens on that subject yet!
> 
> Willing to be bet that 'working families' won't be inconvenienced in any way.
> 
> And BHP have got the uranium.



Agree.  That Ms Gillard's proposed committee to consider what to do about carbon is only to include people who already agree about what should happen is a mockery.  Why not include the Libs as well with their alternative approach?
Also, have scientific input from so called sceptics as well as the believers.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Agree.  That Ms Gillard's proposed committee to consider what to do about carbon is only to include people who already agree about what should happen is a mockery.  Why not include the Libs as well with their alternative approach?
> Also, have scientific input from so called sceptics as well as the believers.




Yes, Ms. Gillard is asking for bipartite co-operation from the coalitition and working together in the National interest. (only when it suits HER.)

What a two faced b###h.


----------



## Julia

It's pretty funny that Rob Oakeshott has now decided his plan to become Speaker wouldn't work.  It seems a discussion with Mr Abbott today allowed him to see how naive he was being.  Even Kerry O'Brien this evening suggested to Mr Oakeshott that he would appear to many people to be grandstanding and acting in self interest.

Will be interesting to see how the saga progresses.

Is Harry Evans available to fill the role again in the new parliament?


----------



## ghotib

Julia said:


> Agree.  That Ms Gillard's proposed committee to consider what to do about carbon is only to include people who already agree about what should happen is a mockery.  Why not include the Libs as well with their alternative approach?
> Also, have scientific input from so called sceptics as well as the believers.



The committee's purpose is to work out how to price carbon. It is not to revisit arguments about whether carbon emissions are a problem, or whether Australia will price carbon. Assuming "so called sceptics" are sceptical about those two things, they have nothing useful to contribute. 

The Libs excluded themselves, and I'm sorry they did. Greg Hunt has a clue and might have been able to pass half a one on to Abbott. 

Cheers,

Ghoti


----------



## Logique

Listening to ABC radio this morning.

Post-election, I'm having trouble working out who's the Prime Minister now - is it Rob Oakeshott or Kevin Rudd.

With appointing a Speaker, perhaps on the first morning of the sitting they could 'rock off' for it, say best of three with elimination rounds.


----------



## joea

Hi
The PM is still the "faceless men, the spokesperson is Julia Gillard"


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> It's pretty funny that Rob Oakeshott has now decided his plan to become Speaker wouldn't work.  It seems a discussion with Mr Abbott today allowed him to see how naive he was being.  Even Kerry O'Brien this evening suggested to Mr Oakeshott that he would appear to many people to be grandstanding and acting in self interest.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how the saga progresses.
> 
> Is Harry Evans available to fill the role again in the new parliament?




Julia, do you mean Harry Jenkins. Don't know Harry Evans.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Julia, do you mean Harry Jenkins. Don't know Harry Evans.



Thanks, noco.  Yes, I do, of course.  No idea where the "Evans" came from.
Is he available for the coming parliament?


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> Thanks, noco.  Yes, I do, of course.  No idea where the "Evans" came from.
> Is he available for the coming parliament?





You are not alone Julia some one on the ABC radio did the same this morning.


----------



## IFocus

ghotib said:


> The Libs excluded themselves, and I'm sorry they did. Greg Hunt has a clue and might have been able to pass half a one on to Abbott.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ghoti




Hunt is an excellent performer no doubt destined to be side lined as a result.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Thanks, noco.  Yes, I do, of course.  No idea where the "Evans" came from.
> Is he available for the coming parliament?




Yes Julia, Harry Jenkins is available and appears a bit put out that he is the speaker in waiting. 

It would appear the Labor Party are in a bit of a quandary as to what to do without reducing their majority from two to one. The appointment of Harry Jenkins would put the Labor Party at a disadvantage because he can only have a casting vote.

IMHO I believe Julia Gillard should bite the bullet instead of pussy footing around. It is her responsibility. She wanted to govern at all costs, so she must now ware the consequence of having to sacrifice one vote.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> You are not alone Julia some one on the ABC radio did the same this morning.



Thanks, IFocus.  I finally remembered who Harry Evans is, although it's no excuse for my confusing the two Harry's.
Harry Evans is the long term Clerk of the Senate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Evans_(Australian_Senate_clerk)



IFocus said:


> Hunt is an excellent performer no doubt destined to be side lined as a result.



I agree that he performed really well.  Some of these junior people seem way more competent than the so called 'senior' politicians.
Perhaps, though, he - and Scott Morrison is another very competent young minister - are simply too lacking in years of experience to be promoted just yet.

Another example on the other side imo is Chris Bowen who I'd like to have seen take Lindsay Tanner's place as Finance Minister.  He had already accumulated experience in that area and is articulate and capable.
Instead, we have the woeful Penny Wong who so stuffed up the climate change p/f.

Chris Bowen is already achieving obvious competence as Immigration Minister, so perhaps his talents are not being entirely wasted.

Maybe there is some sort of 'rite of passage' that needs to be endured by junior ministers before their natural competence can oust their non-performing so called seniors.


----------



## robusta

noco said:


> Yes Julia, Harry Jenkins is available and appears a bit put out that he is the speaker in waiting.
> 
> It would appear the Labor Party are in a bit of a quandary as to what to do without reducing their majority from two to one. The appointment of Harry Jenkins would put the Labor Party at a disadvantage because he can only have a casting vote.
> 
> IMHO I believe Julia Gillard should bite the bullet instead of pussy footing around. It is her responsibility. She wanted to govern at all costs, so she must now ware the consequence of having to sacrifice one vote.




Fair enough at least it should stop any polititians leaving Canberra or the house for that matter while parliament is sitting. (best to keep them in 1 place so they can't infect the rest of us)


----------



## Logique

I've seen Harry Jenkins in action, he is a good Speaker, as good as I've seen, and doesn't deserve the current speculation and uncertainty around the position. Well deserving of reappointment.

Julia, I agree with your comments on the present incumbents of the Immigration and Finance portfolios, if perhaps a teeny bit unfair on Ms Wong, who didn't necessarily have the all support she deserved from above. If the Rudd administration had called the Coalition's bluff and gone to a double dissolution on an ETS, Rudd would still be PM, and Penny Wong installed as a hero of the Left.

And who talked Rudd out of it? The NSW Right, and Gillard on the Left.

But I'm no carbon tax booster. Unlike Marius _'now that BHP, Rio and XStrata have our preferred version of the MRRT_' Kloppers.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> But I'm no carbon tax booster. Unlike Marius _'now that BHP, Rio and XStrata have our preferred version of the MRRT_' Kloppers.




Politics makes strange bedfellows. Marius Kloppers is now Bob Brown's new best friend.


----------



## derty

noco said:


> Derty, you have quoted figures back in 2008. If you had done a little bit more research, you will note coal is only 8% of BHP's revenue. Most of it is exported, so why would they worry about a CPRS?
> 
> Further more they are saying we should look beyond coal. If you had carried out some more research you would have learned BHP are about to develope the second largest uranium mine in Australlia at Yeelirrie in WA where BHP will produce 5000 tonnes of uranium per year. Urnaium prices are destined to rise in price as world demands increase and coal decreases due to CO2 emmissions. So Kloppers may not be as silly as he looks.
> 
> Dety, if you have not got the message by now, I'm afraid I can't help you any more.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/move-on-climate-bhp-billiton-urges-20100915-15cn4.html



Been out bush chasing a rig about, hence the delayed reply. I have got your message noco, but do not agree with your assessment. 

The figures for 2008 were in the relative ballpark for production. For 2010 ending in June BHP produced:
2279 tonnes U3O8 or 5.02M lb @ $50/lb = $251M
103.5Mt met + thermal coal @ $90/tonne = $9.27B

If BHP's coal production is 8% of their production then the current uranium production equates to 0.21%. If you use the longer term average uranium production of around 4kt that moves up to about 0.4% and if you add on the proposed 5kt from Yellierie it brings you up to around 1% of BHP production. 

While BHP is planning to ramp up their uranium production this is not about uranium, even with an expanded Olympic Dam and Yellierie their U3O8 prduction will be a small fraction of their coal and petrochmical production. It's about Kloppers acceptance that a carbon tax is inevitable and about BHP being a large energy producer and being involved in the process to try and get conditions most favourable to them.

http://www.businessday.com.au/busin...d-by-backing-a-carbon-tax-20100917-15g87.html


----------



## Knobby22

derty said:


> While BHP is planning to ramp up their uranium production this is not about uranium, even with an expanded Olympic Dam and Yellierie their U3O8 prduction will be a small fraction of their coal and petrochmical production. It's about Kloppers acceptance that a carbon tax is inevitable and about BHP being a large energy producer and being involved in the process to try and get conditions most favourable to them.
> 
> http://www.businessday.com.au/busin...d-by-backing-a-carbon-tax-20100917-15g87.html




45 countries already have some form of carbon tax.
Australia is a laggard but will eventually follow. Kloppers says he is a strong proponent of the carbon/global warming scenario and also understands that it doesn't want to be caught by surprise. I agree.


----------



## drsmith

Companies such as BHP care much less about a broad based consumption tax such as a carbon tax than they do about direct taxes on their profitability such as a resources rent tax. When faced with governments that want to increase taxation overall, it's better for them that the pain be more thinly spread across a larger proportion of the economy. Most important for business is certainty, regardless of who is in power and how they raise taxes.

Labor's smoke screen over the introduction of a carbon tax during the campaign was thin at best and anyone with half the brain of a mouse should have seen through it. Bob Brown was utterly blunt, stating that a price on carbon would be introduced this term. As I said before, a vote for the ALP was a vote for a carbon tax. No one should be suprised they are now marching in this direction as fast as they can.

Regardless of the environmental merits, the core purpose of a carbon tax (and the RRT for that matter) for the ALP/Greens is to increase the overall tax take. It's this increase in tax by stealth that I object to. They are trying to pluck more from the goose without it squawking until it's too late.

As for Tony Abbott, we now no he's no Bill Gates when it comes to telecommunications. We also know he abandonded any moral high ground he could have claimed on great big new taxes with his tax slug on business to fund his extravagant maternity leave scheme. What could have been had he not done this? This, we will never know.

There are two predictions I make at this point,

1) There will be another election within 12 months.
2) Tony Abbott will never be PM.


----------



## Knobby22

drsmith said:


> There are two predictions I make at this point,
> 
> 1) There will be another election within 12 months.
> 2) Tony Abbott will never be PM.




Big call!


----------



## noco

Julia Gillard yesterday in her press release mentioned at least 10 times Mr.Rabbott broke his promise on parliamentry reform. OMG, she is carrying on like a jilted fiance. There was only one item he reneged on was the pairing arrangement of the speaker because it was uncontitutional.

How many broken promises has she made.

She said she fully supported  Kevin Rudd and would not challenge him for the leadership.

She made pre election promises and states after she won government that all those promises would become null and void because of the hung parliament.

She said there would be no CPRS untill 2013. She now looks like succumbing to the Greens demands for a CPRS within her first year.

This woman is an out and out hypocrite.


----------



## IFocus

Peter van Onselen


*Leader fails the honour test in Speaker backflip*



> "HE wants to blow the place up. He'll either be a terrorist or go kamikaze - we'll see."
> 
> That is how one of Tony Abbott's frontbenchers summed up his decision to walk away from an agreed parliamentary reform to pair the Speaker's vote.
> 
> Abbott will either bring down the government or himself as he presses to destroy the workability of the new parliament. It is an interesting tactical decision.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...speaker-backflip/story-e6frg6zo-1225928618868


Abbotts erratic  behavior unbelievably continues to move further away from what is acceptable for swinging voters Malcolm's smile just got bigger


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Peter van Onselen
> 
> 
> *Leader fails the honour test in Speaker backflip*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...speaker-backflip/story-e6frg6zo-1225928618868
> 
> 
> Abbotts erratic  behavior unbelievably continues to move further away from what is acceptable for swinging voters Malcolm's smile just got bigger




Of course Gillard would not have done the same thing had it been the other way round. Even Richo agreed this morning.


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> How many broken promises has she made....
> ....She said there would be no CPRS untill 2013. She now looks like succumbing to the Greens demands for a CPRS within her first year.
> This woman is an out and out *hypocrite*.



Yes, shamelessly so. 

How long did the 150 person climate citizens assembly last. As usual, Labor gets the soft-soap treatment from the bulk of the media commentariat, while the Coalition leader is flayed on suspicion. Well it never seemed to hurt John Howard very much.


----------



## Logique

Words fail me. Just an everyday Australian working family.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ecome-neighbours/story-fn59niix-1225929722652


> *Gillard and Rudd become neighbours*
> 
> *KEVIN Rudd has bought a near-new $2.2 million two-storey mansion at Yarralumla, a few minutes away from the Lodge to where Prime Minister Julia Gillard moved yesterday*.
> .......................
> "Yay!!! Kevin and I have found a house with a garden in Canberra and move in mid October," she [Therese Rein] announced. "Looking to having Abby (the Rudds' pet labrador) home," she tweeted.
> 
> The former prime minister was still in New York ahead of his address to the UN as foreign minister.
> 
> The Rudds had been planning an organic vegetable garden at The Lodge but yesterday afternoon Ms Rein tweeted: "Starting to plan veggies for new garden. Espaliered fruit trees? (Gloriously abundant with blossom in springtime.) And some basil. Mmmm. Yum."
> .........................
> Yarralumla is one of Canberra's most highly desired neighbourhoods. Its 2909 residents, with an average age of 47 years, include the Governor-General, Quentin Bryce.
> 
> The parlous finances of the ACT government will receive a welcome boost from the $130,250 the Rudds will have to pay in stamp duty for their new purchase. A spokeswoman for Mr Rudd declined to confirm when the couple would take up residence in their new home.


----------



## basilio

I think it is clear that this current Gillard Labour government will be lucky to last until the New Year. Tony Abbott will harass and destroy anything Labour puts up and in effect make a very difficult task impossible.

But on the other side of the picture I just can't see Abbott gaining support from the Independents as a minority government. He has totally trashed his credibility so the result would have to be another election. 

But is this really in the Liberals interest ?  My feel of the situation (certainly with a bias) is that the Liberals aggression and determination to undermine the government will play against it in another election.(It will be interesting to see if there are any polls which are asking this question ) If this happens Labour will be returned unencumbered and whatever possibilities Abbott had of influencing legislation in a hung parliament will be greatly diminished.

What I can see happening (if there is any brains left in the Labour camp) is some imaginative and visionary legislation put up by Labour as quickly as possible to encompass the Indies, Greens, Labour and swinging voters and then dare Abbott to oppose it. This would form a part of the basis of a new election if it is rejected.


----------



## wayneL

basilio said:


> What I can see happening (if there is any brains left in the Labour camp) is some imaginative and visionary legislation put up by Labour as quickly as possible to encompass the Indies, Greens, Labour and swinging voters and then dare Abbott to oppose it. This would form a part of the basis of a new election if it is rejected.




Well that's the problem isn't it. Labor are incapable  of imaginative and visionary legislation.


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> Well that's the problem isn't it. Labor are incapable  of imaginative and visionary legislation.




You are such a *nice* and clever little soul waynel.   You should be running the country, no doubt about that.

How about a burst of you imagination and vision instead of flat dry criticism of all that is posted that does not fit with your loveliness, or was that your highness or perhaps holyness.

Comeorn, step out for the good of the country.


----------



## Mofra

I would think NBN meets the definition of imaginitve and visionary legislation.

Abbott on the other hand has shown nothing but unimaginitive opposition. He can campaign very very well - I just don't think he can lead.


----------



## wayneL

explod said:


> You are such a *nice* and clever little soul waynel.   You should be running the country, no doubt about that.
> 
> How about a burst of you imagination and vision instead of flat dry criticism of all that is posted that does not fit with your loveliness, or was that your highness or perhaps holyness.
> 
> Comeorn, step out for the good of the country.




Isn't that a bit of a non sequitur?

Just because I observe a lack of imagination and vision, in no way did I imply I possessed such virtues... and the rest of your post is nothing more than a straw man argument, which by the way is a logical fallacy.

Fallacious arguments might seem clever, but they're not, they're just fallacious and peurile.


----------



## wayneL

Mofra said:


> I would think NBN meets the definition of imaginitve and visionary legislation.




A nationwide broadband network? Who'da thunk it? Jeez that's never been done before!


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> Isn't that a bit of a non sequitur?
> 
> Just because I observe a lack of imagination and vision, in no way did I imply I possessed such virtues... and the rest of your post is nothing more than a straw man argument, which by the way is a logical fallacy.
> 
> Fallacious arguments might seem clever, but they're not, they're just fallacious and peurile.




In what way do they lack vision or imagination.  If the criticism has some merit, no worries.  If it is going to be made then some qualification.

During ww2 they were virtually handed power to help bring the country to arms.  They created Medicare, Keating floated the dollar, and no doubt we can find some on the other side of the floor. Though Vietnam and Iraq did not do us much good.   But its in the past.

As for the Gillard Government, no one yet knows the answer, her new Government is has not been tested on the floor of the House.

Lets just wait and see.   A case founded on what no longer exists is not helpfull, IMO.

I do apologise for the in between gobbledygook.


----------



## Julia

Explod, whilst I'm not suggesting the Coalition would be any better, don't you think some disrespect is deserved by the Gillard government for so very obviously backtracking on e.g. putting a price on carbon.  

She clearly said this was not going to happen in the foreseeable future, but now that she had to do a deal with the Greens to get their preferences in the election campaign, she has no choice but to keep her end of the deal and give them what they want.  So we're going to have a Committee on Carbon Tax which is going to be secret from the people apparently.  And participation in this committee is limited to those who *already are convinced we have to have a price on carbon*.

What is the point of a committee when the outcome of its deliberations is already set in stone?

The Libs may not participate as long as they continue to suggest that a cleaner, greener atmosphere can be addressed by direction action, rather than just another revenue raising tax.

Democracy?

Doesn't this sort of nonsense give you some cause for concern?


----------



## explod

Absolutely Julia.  The whole political business is a shambles at the moment.  However to say one or the other side would do any diffrently at the moment when there is so much uncertenty is not correct.

The carbon tax is just one issue of many troubling things at the moment.  A lot of change is, and has to take place in a fast changing world and I would challenge anyone to aproach it with answers in concrete.   It has been politics on the run from both sides for some years now.  We just have to wait with bated breath to see what pans out.

Today will be interesting.


----------



## sails

If a carbon tax is simply an excuse to extract more spending money for the government from working families, then it is disgraceful, IMO.

From what I have read, there seems to be conflicting arguments on the need for carbon tax.  So there is a possibility that the government could be inflicting hardship on those already struggling financially for no reason at all.  What if climate does simply cycle itself and nothing we do actually makes any difference?

And all this committee secrecy only gives more cause for concern and doesn't look good when the PM states this will be the most transparent government in history - I think those are the words she used.


----------



## IFocus

So now Abbott determines whats in the national interest from opposition

*Tony Abbott gets tough on pair for Julia Gillard *



> Sources confirmed last night that Mr Abbott had told Labor he would not give Ms Gillard an automatic pair, and would expect her to be in parliament to vote unless she could demonstrate her proposed trips or meetings were in the national interest. Earlier, Labor's caucus meeting heard it was traditional for the head of the government to be granted an automatic pair.





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-julia-gillard/story-fn59niix-1225930323480


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> So now Abbott determines whats in the national interest from opposition
> 
> *Tony Abbott gets tough on pair for Julia Gillard *
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-julia-gillard/story-fn59niix-1225930323480




Isn't it the opposition's job to oppose?  

Isn't it their job to try and look after the will of around half of Australia who didn't want Gillard's policies and potential excessive spendings?

IMO, they have an equal mandate to oppose as Gillard has to govern.

And if the boot were on the other foot and the Independents had sided with the Coalition to form minority government, don't you think Gillard would be up to every trick in the book (and some of her own) to undo them?  And you would be applauding her...lol


----------



## joea

Sails.

I suspect "you have not seen nothing yet" as the saying goes.
But you can be assured we will be taxed to the hilt from all sources, to achieve the so called surplus.

While we are being governed by a government that uses a lot of experts I believe we are in big trouble. 
The carbon tax committee has 4.

Now I have been told that a expert is a combination of....
x... an unknown quantity and,
pert...a drip under pressure.

However I am sure that they are very well paid.

We are about to have some of the best entertainment you have ever seen,
courtesy of the tax payer.


----------



## Logique

My state of NSW refuses, under Keneally Labor, to build any more coal-fired power stations. It would equally refuse to build nuclear power stations. In southern NSW, a reserve for dam building has been turned over, at Green urging, to national park (no good building a dam you see, it would never fill up). So that's the hydro alternative down the gurgler.

Just how are we to meet our expanding industrial and domestic baseload power requirements? Are there enough wind turbines and solar panels in the world? And at what price?

Electricity will be the new luxury commodity, with a price tag to match. Brought to us by the 'Friend of the Worker' Labor Party.

In a word - exasperating. A slow motion train wreck.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> And if the boot were on the other foot and the Independents had sided with the Coalition to form minority government, don't you think Gillard would be up to every trick in the book (and some of her own) to undo them?  And you would be applauding her...lol




The poor little pet wants that nasty Abbott to be nice to her.


----------



## IFocus

*Harry Jenkins elected speaker*

Harry Jenkins has been re-elected unopposed as Speaker of the House of Representatives.



> Labor's nomination of Mr Jenkins means it will be forced to govern with a majority of just one vote on the floor of parliament - 75 to 74 votes.
> 
> *The coalition last week walked away from a reform deal that would have seen the Speaker paired and the government maintain a two-vote buffer.*




http://www.smh.com.au/national/harry-jenkins-elected-speaker-20100928-15uuh.html


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> Isn't it the opposition's job to oppose?



I would hope they see their job as to provide an alternative government - Abbott unfortunately doesn't see it that way.


----------



## IFocus

*Qld independent MP contemplating federal seat*


Independent Queensland MP Peter Wellington has threatened to run against the Liberal National Party (LNP) if there is an early federal election.



> Mr Wellington says the Federal Opposition is being bloody minded and not cooperating for a workable Parliament.
> 
> He says he would run as an independent in a Sunshine Coast seat to give the Liberal National coalition something to worry about.
> 
> "My first responsibility is as a State Member of Parliament and I want to stay there," he said.
> 
> *"But quite frankly I feel very angry with the way the Liberal Nationals are carrying on at the moment.
> 
> "Tony Abbott is letting the party machine, letting the politicking, take precedence over what I believe is his first responsibility and that is let the Parliament have a chance of working."*


----------



## Calliope

*PARLIAMENT is a blood sport and there is no respect for rats in the ranks on either side, says Niki Savva*.



> *FEDERAL parliament is no place for namby-pamby cry babies or sooks. Nor should it be.*
> 
> Neither is it a place that offers solace to rats. The side from which they rat despises them and sets out to destroy them, and the side to which they rat also despises them and never trusts them.
> 
> Rodents might roam the corridors of the press gallery with impunity, but it would be about the only place in that building where rats were given refuge.
> 
> So when parliament sits tomorrow, after the formalities of today, it will not be beautiful, and promises to get very ugly.
> 
> So what? Parliament should be robust and boisterous and occasionally disrespectful. It is the place for people to fight over ideas, not roll  over.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/just-bring-back-the-biffo/story-e6frg6zo-1225930216219


----------



## IFocus

Mofra said:


> I would hope they see their job as to provide an alternative government - Abbott unfortunately doesn't see it that way.





And to hold the government to account which is not whats happening, Abbotts behavior will have heavy implications down the the road should he remain leader, I suspect there will be some very uneasy coalition members with this kamikaze approach.

Still entertaining from a spectator point of view


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> So now Abbott determines whats in the national interest from opposition
> 
> *Tony Abbott gets tough on pair for Julia Gillard *



I don't think there's anything unreasonable in that.  I heard him interviewed on this.  He stated that of course they will provide a pair if the PM is travelling overseas etc on business that is *in the national interest.*.

What he is unprepared to co-operate about, it seems, is offering the same facility if she is swanning about doing purely Labor Party business.

As others have observed, Mr Abbott is going to have to tread a pretty fine line between being rightfully tough in opposition and being seen as petty and obstructionist.  Given his personality, I doubt he'll find this easy.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> And to hold the government to account which is not whats happening, Abbotts behavior will have heavy implications down the the road should he remain leader, I suspect there will be some very uneasy coalition members with this kamikaze approach.
> 
> Still entertaining from a spectator point of view




...So is Abbott supposed to just smile sweetly and say "whatever you want, dear?"

As I said before, if it were the other way around, you would be applauding Gillard's tactics to get rid of the Abbott government.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> I would think NBN meets the definition of imaginitve and visionary legislation.




Mofra, for me the trouble with NBN is the fuzziness of information.  Here are just some of my concerns:

  Where is the detailed financial business plan  – cash flows etc?
  What is the realistic cost going to be to the end user before and after introductory phase?
  What contingency plans are in place should this extremely expensive product be outdated before it is finished being installed?
To ask Australians to blindly accept such a huge cost of taxpayers funds without a proper and transparent business plan does not inspire confidence.



> Abbott on the other hand has shown nothing but unimaginitive opposition. He can campaign very very well - I just don't think he can lead.



Rather funny that Abbott is now getting credit for campaigning well when, throughout the campaign, there was so much criticism ranging from speech issues to policy from conservative knockers.  Maybe he will surprise with leadership too.


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> Rather funny that Abbott is now getting credit for campaigning well when, throughout the campaign, there was so much criticism ranging from speech issues to policy from conservative knockers.  Maybe he will surprise with leadership too.



Given his blanket opposition to everything before the election now appears to be repeated, and he's reneged on his previous parliamentary reforms agenda and the arrangement for a paired speaker, there have been no surprises so far.


----------



## wayneL

Mofra said:


> Given his blanket opposition to everything before the election now appears to be repeated, and he's reneged on his previous parliamentary reforms agenda and the arrangement for a paired speaker, there have been no surprises so far.




So you don't remember Mr No? (Pig Beazley?)

So much grist for the "leftists have no objectivity" mill. 

I mean all of us political animals are a bit hypocritical, but the left takes it to new, unheard of levels.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Mofra, for me the trouble with NBN is the fuzziness of information.  Here are just some of my concerns:
> 
> Where is the detailed financial business plan  – cash flows etc?
> What is the realistic cost going to be to the end user before and after introductory phase?
> What contingency plans are in place should this extremely expensive product be outdated before it is finished being installed?
> To ask Australians to blindly accept such a huge cost of taxpayers funds without a proper and transparent business plan does not inspire confidence.



These are my concerns also.  I'm surprised that not more business leaders have insisted on the above due diligence being done.  It's almost as if the government has mesmerised people with their pictures of distance medicine etc where people no longer die from eg heart attacks because their GP can access fast internet.  What nonsense.

A good example of this has been Tony Windsor's saying that one of the deciding factors for him supporting the Gillard government was the NBN.
It was later reported that he doesn't even currently use the internet, and further, that one of the 'experts' from whom he received advice before making his decision was a Telstra tech who had lost his job.





> Rather funny that Abbott is now getting credit for campaigning well when, throughout the campaign, there was so much criticism ranging from speech issues to policy from conservative knockers.  Maybe he will surprise with leadership too.



I'm not sure how he will go.  He needs to find a fairly delicate balance between providing genuine and justifiable opposition, and simply being obstructionist.  We will see if he has these skills.

I actually think Julie Bishop (who has been performing very well) might be more suited to the Leader of the Opposition against Ms Gillard.  The two women would certainly be in contrast of styles and background.


----------



## todster

sails said:


> Mofra, for me the trouble with NBN is the fuzziness of information.  Here are just some of my concerns:
> 
> Where is the detailed financial business plan  – cash flows etc?
> What is the realistic cost going to be to the end user before and after introductory phase?
> What contingency plans are in place should this extremely expensive product be outdated before it is finished being installed?
> To ask Australians to blindly accept such a huge cost of taxpayers funds without a proper and transparent business plan does not inspire
> 
> 
> 
> Have you read the Mckinsey report on NBN?


----------



## Calliope

It is not surprising that Labor courted Peter Slipper as a rat. After all he has a history of being a rat, and once a rat...always a rat. I know this guy. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.



> On Monday night, Mr Slipper released a statement saying he'd be happy to serve as deputy speaker "but certainly not on the basis of pairing my vote or guaranteeing confidence and supply to the government". *Back in the early 1990s, it was his decision to rat on the Queensland Nationals to join the Liberals *after the failed Joh For Canberra push that first attracted attention. Last year, it was revealed his mobile phone bill was larger than prime minister Kevin Rudd's.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-up-proceedings/story-fn59niix-1225931216148


----------



## joea

Hi.
Following is an extract from an engineer who has worked in optical fibre for 13 years. It is point 5 of a statement on NBN.

The "NBN" will be one of the largest single networks ever built on earth. There only a few companies who could do it - Japan's Nippon NTT,BT,AT&T; Deutsche Telekom etc. Even Telstra would  struggle to build something on this scale. Yet we are led to believe that the same people who can't build school halls or install insulation without being ripped off are going to do it.???
Here at Telstra, we are laughing our heads off. Because when it all comes crumbling down, after they have spent $60+billion and the network is no more than 1/2 complete, it will be up to Telstra to pick up the pieces.(shhh don't tell anyone, its our secret.)
I do not subscribe to Telstra and this could be sour grapes.
Scary eh!

As for cost justification, that will not happen because it cannot be cost justified.
Cheers


----------



## Mofra

wayneL said:


> So you don't remember Mr No? (Pig Beazley?)
> 
> So much grist for the "leftists have no objectivity" mill.
> 
> I mean all of us political animals are a bit hypocritical, but the left takes it to new, unheard of levels.



Waynel, you're forgetting we're different categories - I'm a swinging voter, not someone who votes entirely on idealogical grounds 

Beazley is someone I never voted for, however my reasons were more due to incompetence as Defence Minister rather than his blanket opposition to almost everything (which, even the impartial Liberal idealogues have to agree doesn't quite reaches Abbott's level). 

I do find amusing the right-idealogues' justification for everything Abbott does is simply, "others from other parties have done it before". Isn't leadership about treading your own path if need be?


----------



## Calliope

Gillard accuses Abbott of being a *"wrecker"*. It is not surprising, with her background, that she has adopted the Stalinist terminology.

With Stalin at the controls, technology was a "god", feverishly embraced for the Party in the name of Marx, Engles, and Lenin. Although many projects were successfully completed and moved the Soviet empire into modern times, goals often exceeded the available resources. Those who dared point this out were called *"wreckers"*, accused of treason, and punished. By accusing *"wreckers"* of thwarting the plans of the State, Stalin was able to divert attention from the real reasons for the failure of his schemes

http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/sovunion/captioned/coll_ind.htm


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> Gillard accuses Abbott of being a *"wrecker"*. It is not surprising, with her background, that she has adopted the Stalinist terminology.
> 
> With Stalin at the controls, technology was a "god", feverishly embraced for the Party in the name of Marx, Engles, and Lenin. Although many projects were successfully completed and moved the Soviet empire into modern times, goals often exceeded the available resources. Those who dared point this out were called *"wreckers"*, accused of treason, and punished. By accusing *"wreckers"* of thwarting the plans of the State, Stalin was able to divert attention from the real reasons for the failure of his schemes
> 
> http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/sovunion/captioned/coll_ind.htm




It seems the ABC has signed up to Labor's agenda, by reinforcing the message Labor wants to get out.

When Abbott appointed Turnbill as shadow communications minister, Abbott stated that he appointed Turnbill to hold the government to account on the NBN. The new 24 hour ABC channel for most of that morning scrolled across the screen  "Abbott orders Turnbill to wreck NBN" or similar words.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> It is not surprising that Labor courted Peter Slipper as a rat. After all he has a history of being a rat, and once a rat...always a rat. I know this guy. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.




He can also claim the distinction of being the biggest spender in the Parliament.  His mobile phone bill was more than Kevin Rudd's and he has spent more on taxis and other transport than any other MP.


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> Hi.
> Following is an extract from an engineer who has worked in optical fibre for 13 years. It is point 5 of a statement on NBN.
> 
> The "NBN" will be one of the largest single networks ever built on earth. There only a few companies who could do it - Japan's Nippon NTT,BT,AT&T; Deutsche Telekom etc. Even Telstra would  struggle to build something on this scale. Yet we are led to believe that the same people who can't build school halls or install insulation without being ripped off are going to do it.???
> Here at Telstra, we are laughing our heads off. Because when it all comes crumbling down, after they have spent $60+billion and the network is no more than 1/2 complete, it will be up to Telstra to pick up the pieces.(shhh don't tell anyone, its our secret.)
> I do not subscribe to Telstra and this could be sour grapes.
> Scary eh!
> 
> As for cost justification, that will not happen because it cannot be cost justified.
> Cheers





This was discredited over on Whirlpool as being rubbish.


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> He can also claim the distinction of being the biggest spender in the Parliament.  His mobile phone bill was more than Kevin Rudd's and he has spent more on taxis and other transport than any other MP.





The bit that rattled Abbott was the independents all voted as a block for Slipper to sound a warning to Abbott.

Labor managed to claw back some ground on the pairing issue now I wonder how often Harry Jenkins will feel a need to be missing from the chair to give Labor an extra vote.


----------



## wayneL

Mofra said:


> Waynel, you're forgetting we're different categories - I'm a swinging voter, not someone who votes entirely on idealogical grounds




No we aren't. If you will recall, I was an outspoken critic of Johnny Rotten and the putrid state of the gu'mint under the Liberals.

Yes I have an ideological ideal, but it ain't either of the main parties. It's just that I'm particularly agin SD.


----------



## joea

IFocus.

Try This.
Point 1. Fibre optic cable has a maximum theoretical lifespan of 25 years when installed in conduit. Over time, the glass actually degrades(long story), and eventually it can't do it's bouncing of light any more. But when you install fibre outside on overhead wiring, then the fibre degrades much quicker due to temperature variations and solar/cosmic radiation. THE GLASS IN THIS CASE WILL LAST NO LONGER THAN 15 YEARS.
Fibre is not the best technology for the last mile.
In today's Australian Carlos Slim Helu at the Forbes Conferance makes a statement on the $43 billion broadband installation by the Gillard Government.
I suggest you read it.

In todays Australian a spokes person for Conroy says it will last 30 - 50 years. 
Cheers


----------



## bellenuit

One of the issues I haven't seen discussed is the imbalance between rolling out the NBN to rural areas first, as demanded by the independents, and even suggested by Stephen Forbes yesterday and only providing it later in the cities.

I would guess that 99% of web hosts that are not overseas based are in the cities. If speeds in the cities are only a fraction of that available to rural areas, what good is it to rural users if their links support 100Mbps, but the web hosts they want to access can only pump the data to them at a fraction of that speed?

Obviously NBN would give access where there was no access before, but surely wireless access makes more sense for rural areas until the locations of most web hosts are first installed.


----------



## boofhead

joea: Can you provide some sources for that information on fibre lifetimes?

bellenuit: I don't understand your point. Web sites and ISPs already use fibre for connections.

Fast connections allow you to operate like how we adapt to use PCs now - multitasking. Doing multiple things often with little impact on other things.

Not everyone with fibre will be using maximum speeds. NBNCo has documents on what sort of plans ISPs will have access to including 25 mbit which is close to ADSL2+ in ideal situations. Cable can go faster.

Not everyone uses the internet at the same time to access the same few sites. Many of the major fibre backbones have plenty of space capacity at the moment with upgrades in planning. The major international submarine operators give details on bandwidth currently available. Internode offer up maps on how they operate their network including capacity they have paid for.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> The bit that rattled Abbott was the independents all voted as a block for Slipper to sound a warning to Abbott.
> 
> Labor managed to claw back some ground on the pairing issue now I wonder how often Harry Jenkins will feel a need to be missing from the chair to give Labor an extra vote.



I understand Mr Jenkins was even today - the first sitting day - absent for a period, allowing Mr Slipper to take the chair.  Hardly an auspicious beginning if that's true.





joea said:


> IFocus.
> In today's Australian Carlos Slim Helu at the Forbes Conferance makes a statement on the $43 billion broadband installation by the Gillard Government.
> I suggest you read it.



I heard this man who is apparently the world's richest person (move over Gates et al) and who has made his fortune in this field, interviewed on ABC "PM" this evening.  He was (politely) very critical and said a mix of technologies would be far more appropriate.


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> IFocus.
> 
> Try This.
> Point 1. Fibre optic cable has a maximum theoretical lifespan of 25 years when installed in conduit. Over time, the glass actually degrades(long story), and eventually it can't do it's bouncing of light any more. But when you install fibre outside on overhead wiring, then the fibre degrades much quicker due to temperature variations and solar/cosmic radiation. THE GLASS IN THIS CASE WILL LAST NO LONGER THAN 15 YEARS.
> Fibre is not the best technology for the last mile.
> In today's Australian Carlos Slim Helu at the Forbes Conferance makes a statement on the $43 billion broadband installation by the Gillard Government.
> I suggest you read it.
> 
> In todays Australian a spokes person for Conroy says it will last 30 - 50 years.
> Cheers




Might be more for the other NBN thread

Fiber has been used in trans ocean / countries for some time the life span / fault rates are nothing like the doomsayers are making out also nothing like I have experienced in industry.

The last mile is an argument worth having but wireless wont be the answer unless you like being microwaved or having a tower in your back yard some thing the wireless mob forget to tell everyone.

Read the bit on Slim and would'nt argue against him on a business case. 

NBN is major infrastructure that goes beyond $ IMHO

An example is the Perth to Mandurah rail line long argued by Liberals as no go due to the business case not adding up.

Now the rail line is in (Labor thanks to Alana) the social impact benefits are immeasurable 


BTW have traveled quite a bit of Mexico where Slim is from and holds business interests its an economic mess.

There is some really good discussions over on Whirlpool that covers a good range of the issues thrown up just might take a few days to read it all 

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/100


----------



## Logique

The politicization of the NBN is the real barrier in my view. Ridiculous polarization and extremes of rhetoric. The accusation '..you're against broadband..' as ridiculous as '..there is no place for fibre optic cable..'. 

Personally, no problem with a spine of fibre optic cable, and expanded within our means. But until it is within our means, to reach the home, why not allow a mix of technologies and some market competition? We need a reasonable time frame and a reasonable price. And a hedge against changing technologies.

I'd like Labor to deliver a good NBN, at a good price, but it's worrying that they seem to be relishing it as a political opportunity.

Lateline last night a good case in point, '..I'm running this interview Malcolm..', said Jones to Turnbull, who struggled in vain to get a full sentence out. Stephen Conroy on the other hand was allowed, with scant interruption, at length to criticize Turnbull. 

I reckon Tony Jones is running hard to be Kerry O'Briens's successor.


----------



## Knobby22

I saw the same interview and didn't see what you saw. Methinks it is where you are sitting. I am a swing voter.

I don't see anything wrong in principle with installing a fibre network. I mean when the post office installed a copper network 80 years ago I don't think there were people saying it should only go to where it would make money and should be run by private enterprise. 

Maybe there were people saying that but everyone got connected. We believed in egalitarianism then.

We spend billions on roads and no one bats an eyelid.

The big question in my mind is how efficinetly it will be done. Will Labor tender out the work properly and not let special interests rip off the public.
I am not so confident that they will succeed in this but at least they aren't the Vic or NSW state goverments who are hopelessly conflicted and incompetant. 

If Federal Labour fail to run this properly, then they will deserve to lose the next election.

The Liberals have been hopeless in getting their heads around the issue and they need Malcolm. They also need some "tech-heads" as Abbott called them in Parliament. Where is the modern day Monash? All we have now is idealogues with lawyer training.  (rant ends)


----------



## Mofra

wayneL said:


> No we aren't. If you will recall, I was an outspoken critic of Johnny Rotten and the putrid state of the gu'mint under the Liberals.
> 
> Yes I have an ideological ideal, but it ain't either of the main parties. It's just that I'm particularly agin SD.



Fair enough - I have a sneaking suspician that despite the banter, we voted in much the same (or even identical) manner


----------



## Mofra

Knobby22 said:


> I saw the same interview and didn't see what you saw. Methinks it is where you are sitting. I am a swing voter.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong in principle with installing a fibre network. I mean when the post office installed a copper network 80 years ago I don't think there were people saying it should only go to where it would make money and should be run by private enterprise.
> 
> Maybe there were people saying that but everyone got connected. We believed in egalitarianism then.
> 
> We spend billions on roads and no one bats an eyelid.
> 
> The big question in my mind is how efficinetly it will be done. Will Labor tender out the work properly and not let special interests rip off the public.
> I am not so confident that they will succeed in this but at least they aren't the Vic or NSW state goverments who are hopelessly conflicted and incompetant.
> 
> If Federal Labour fail to run this properly, then they will deserve to lose the next election.
> 
> The Liberals have been hopeless in getting their heads around the issue and they need Malcolm. They also need some "tech-heads" as Abbott called them in Parliament. Where is the modern day Monash? All we have now is idealogues with lawyer training.  (rant ends)



Hard to disagree with anything you've raised there. Thankfully by creating NBN Co they will avoid many of the pitfalls of the state government run pink bats fiasco, by handing over cash to beaurocrats who couldn't organise a chook raffle.

I do get the feeling the whole project will be run in the manner of the Melbourne city loop rail stations - the necessity and method of delivery will be questioned and scrutinised during the rollout process, but future generations will be glad the network was established even if the rollout is poorly run.

It will build some redundancy into the system which we lack now - "Joe the backhoe operator" basically took out all of Optus' Brisbane communciations network with a single optical line cut in Oct 08 IIRC.


----------



## Logique

Knobby22 said:


> I saw the same interview and didn't see what you saw. Methinks it is where you are sitting. I am a swing voter.



Respectfully disagree, Jones has form here. Watch Q&A if you don't believe me. In particular note the makeup of the panels. 

Also I haven't forgotten his two-person lynch mob (himself and George Monbiot) of Professor Plimer, who, as a scientist, had the temerity to disagree with a journalist on the subject of climate change.

However I'm reasonably sympathetic to the rest of what you said. With the NBN, let's have no 'rule in-rule out' games. Less politics, more broadband. But no repeat of the BER.


----------



## IFocus

Just out of interest is there ever been a major infrastructure project built on time and under budget by any government?

I know here in the west in private industry, mining, oil and gas its actually not that common.


----------



## joea

Boofhead.

The source of lifespan of optic cable was a network architect for Telstra who has worked with optics fo 14 years.

He also stated ..
# New DSL technologies will emerge. 15 years ago we had 56K dial up. Then 12 years ago we got 256k ADSL, Then 8 years ago we got 1.5mbps ADSL2, then 5 years ago 20Mbps ADSL2+. There are already new DSL technologies being experimented on that will deliver over 50 Mbps on the same copper we have now. $zero cost to tax payer.

# You cannot give every house 100Mbps. If you give several million home 100Mbps bandwidth, then you have exceeded the entire bandwidth. In reality there is a thing called contention. Today every ADSL service with 20Mbps has a contention ratio of around 20:1 (or more for some carriers). That means, you share that 20Mbps with 20 other people. Its a long story why, but there will NEVER be the case of people getting 100Mbps of actual band width. Not for several decades at current carrier equipment rates of evolution.
The "Core" cannot and will not be able to handle that sort of bandwidth.
The 100Mbps or 1Gbps is only the speed from your house to exchange. From there to the Internet, you will get same speeds as now. The "Core" of Australia's network is already fibre(many times over).

No doubt many will be aware that a combination of wireless(4G which is specifically being developed for data not 3G which was voice), satellite, copper and fibre will be the final result. Well I am assuming "common sense' WILL EVENTUALLY prevail". 

Me I have satellite, on both sides of me they have copper wire broadband. Why because the installation of wires was below par. Most homes in my area have "pair gains" telephone and this will not handle broadband. I have copper phone "pair gains".

Finally this debate would have been very much subdued, if a redhead politican
had not made the rash statement of hooking all the homes with fibre at 100Mbps. "THEY SAY A LITTLE UNDERSTANDING IS A DANGEROUS THING"

Cheers.p.s. When i work out how to reduce the email size i will attach it.


----------



## Mofra

IFocus said:


> Just out of interest is there ever been a major infrastructure project built on time and under budget by any government?



Years ago the standard figure was 4% of projects delivered on time and on budget, although the focus of these studies were defence projects which are often delivered on a more difficult basis than infrastructure projects due to technical complexity of new generation systems.


----------



## Mofra

joea said:


> Me I have satellite, on both sides of me they have copper wire broadband. Why because the installation of wires was below par. Most homes in my area have "pair gains" telephone and this will not handle broadband. I have copper phone "pair gains".



Pair gains systems only represent a miniscule proportion of copper wire delivery to homes in Australia, generally backfill sites (resi that was formerly industrial space in middle band suburbs).


----------



## boofhead

Any name put to the network achitect at Telstra? To be honest it seems dubious. For one ADSL 1 has been capable of 1.5mbit for some time and not needed ADSL 2. The lifespan of optic fibre seems to be in relation to accounting and not physical. There are various materials used to make fibre from glass (silica) through to various polymers.

Contention ratios are more about residentual and budget SOHO connections to keep costs down. Those with faster cable and those on fibre can get their maximum speeds mostly because of human behaviour - not everyone is using it at the same time.

For backhaul/backbone - Telstra, Nextgen, Lucent Alcatel and others are involved with long distance 100 gigabit/s trials - that is per fibre. 100 mbit plans for the end customer will cost a bit but slow plans will be available. Telcos/carriers will upgrade as they need. Some ISPs will buy bandwidth with more headroom than others and it shows in Whirlpool discussions.

I'm sure we have already covered this in the NBN thread...


As for the Gillard government overall I don't see much large change. Best hope for it is by-elections.


----------



## Calliope

joea said:


> Here at Telstra, we are laughing our heads off. Because when it all comes crumbling down, after they have spent $60+billion and the network is no more than 1/2 complete, it will be up to Telstra to pick up the pieces.(shhh don't tell anyone, its our secret.)




I got my biggest laugh when I read that Tony Windsor's chief advisor on the NBN was a redundant Telstra Tech. who was looking for a job. As the NBN was (supposedly) Windsor's tipping point, you could say that this guy made history.


----------



## Logique

Get the feeling we're being softened up? Didn't take them long to get started. 

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2010/10/02/Finance_Dept_urges_spending_cuts_520579.html
*Finance Dept urges spending cuts *
Saturday, October 02, 2010 

The Department of Finance has urged the govt to wind back retiree, health and family payments. The Department of Finance has urged the government to wind back retiree, health and family payments, and reduce defence spending.

The incoming brief to new Finance Minister Penny Wong says the government needs to find $2.4 billion in savings over the next four years just to pay for the pledges made during its negotiations with the crossbench independents, including the promised new $1.8 billion program for rural hospitals. 

But the brief - released late on Friday - strongly advises the government to wield the budgetary razor much more deeply, to create a financial buffer against 'the persistent threat of a 'double dip' global economic downturn' and to prepare for the looming costs of an ageing population, Fairfax newspapers say. 

The department suggests much tighter rules for taxpayer benefits and subsidies as a good place to start, including increasing the age at which retirees can access their superannuation to the higher age threshold that applies to the aged pension. 

The brief says the retirement income system will become increasingly expensive as the population ages, threatening fiscal sustainability. 'Measures such as tightening eligibility for the pension and increasing the superannuation preservation age would improve the long term fiscal sustainability of the system.' 

It says family and welfare payments are also poorly targeted. 

The brief also makes the controversial suggestion the government break its pledge in the 2009 defence white paper to increase spending by three per cent a year to 2017-18. 

The 2011-12 budget should be a very austere affair, restricted only to election promises, with any new idea only considered if the spending is offset, Fairfax says. 

Senator Wong said the government was 'absolutely committed' to its strict spending limits. 

'The government will work with the new Parliament to deliver this fiscal strategy in the national interest,' Fairfax quoted her as saying.


----------



## Logique

Great night on 8c a day last night.

Firstly Four Corners, featuring the office machinations of the Three Amigos, then on to Q&A which miraculously, wasn't the the customary ritual bear-baiting of the token conservative. 

From the facile and venal, to the measured and analytical. '..May I interrupt you here Geoffrey..' And a fine point subsequently made too.

Such a contrast. What we have, and what we could have.


----------



## joea

Hi.
The most important thing I see in politics at the moment is, for Eveready to
sponsor Swan with new batteries more frequently for his calculator.
Man oh man, this fellow cannot get within 100% of anything he tries to work out.
I suppose we can always hope, and it is looking a bit better with "Money Penny" coming up the rear.
After all it was her(with only a short time in the new job) announcing that Labor will struggle to achieve a surplus.
Cheers


----------



## Mofra

Logique said:


> Firstly Four Corners, featuring the office machinations of the Three Amigos, then on to Q&A which miraculously, wasn't the the customary ritual bear-baiting of the token conservative.
> 
> From the facile and venal, to the measured and analytical. '..May I interrupt you here Geoffrey..' And a fine point subsequently made too.



I had to enjoy the whole "what the hell will Katter do next?" focus of the latter parts of the story - the insiders appeared to be as bemused by his actions as the rest of us


----------



## noco

Notice all the Gillard cronies have been brainwashed with the slogan "TONY ABBOTT THE WRECKER". When will they all starting thinking for themselves. They are like bloody parrots every time they get on TV.


----------



## wayneL

noco said:


> Notice all the Gillard cronies have been brainwashed with the slogan "TONY ABBOTT THE WRECKER". When will they all starting thinking for themselves. They are like bloody parrots every time they get on TV.




Is wrecking a wreck a bad thing?


----------



## Knobby22

I reckon they all should start stating that Tony Abbott looks a bit French.:


----------



## Calliope

It beggars belief that Windsor, Oakeshott, Katter and Wilkie would oppose a judicial inquiry into the BER $16.2 billion dollar scam, as well as rejecting the need for a cost benefit analysis on the $43 billion NBN scheme.

We are talking about massive amounts of money here. The four stooges are so consumed with their hatred of the Coalition that they will put any consideration of the interests of the electorate or the protection of the taxpayer aside, just to settle old scores.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> It beggars belief that Windsor, Oakeshott, Katter and Wilkie would oppose a judicial inquiry into the BER $16.2 billion dollar scam, as well as rejecting the need for a cost benefit analysis on the $43 billion NBN scheme.
> 
> We are talking about massive amounts of money here. The four stooges are so consumed with their hatred of the Coalition that they will put any consideration of the interests of the electorate or the protection of the taxpayer aside, just to settle old scores.



Yep, agree absolutely.  How pathetic they are, especially with all their grandstanding about having the good of the nation at heart.

I don't remember any time in politics that has been so filled with posturing and populist nonsense.


----------



## sails

Soon Ms Gillard will be able to boast of a higher record than Howard but still refuses to back down.
Sadly, coalition's motion was defeated by one vote.

*Asylum boat numbers outstrip Howard peak* 



> Opposition boarder protection spokesman Michael Keenan said the Gillard government's opposition to the Coalition motion yesterday "reaffirmed their commitment to keeping people-smugglers in business".
> 
> The motion -- introduced by opposition immigration spokesman Scott Morrison -- was defeated in the chamber by one vote, 73 to 72.
> 
> "Rather than adopting the Coalition's already proven policies, the Prime Minister continues to stick her head in the sand as things get consistently worse," Mr Keenan said


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> It beggars belief that Windsor, Oakeshott, Katter and Wilkie would oppose a judicial inquiry into the BER $16.2 billion dollar scam, as well as rejecting the need for a cost benefit analysis on the $43 billion NBN scheme...



Still in good form Calliope 

Its the Tony Windsor memorial broadband you see. Every pollie, especially if on the way out, wants a legacy. The NBN goes to the heart of what the Amigos are about. What did you Nationals achieve, see how we delivered the NBN! 

Cost efficiency and the national budget? Seems those considerations are running a poor second.


----------



## todster

It would be like doing a CBA on the $4b dollars they spend on roads year in year out,or doing one on public transport.
Infrastructure like John Howards Alice to Darwin rail????
The $25m Mckinsey&Co-KPMG implementation study is 500 pages long what do you call that.The Libs like using private firms for there figures don't they?
Have a read.
The NBN will be built And Malcolm Turnbull's star will burn out just as Abbott intended.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Soon Ms Gillard will be able to boast of a higher record than Howard but still refuses to back down.
> Sadly, coalition's motion was defeated by one vote.
> 
> *Asylum boat numbers outstrip Howard peak*




Joolya might be on a commission with the boat smugglers.lol.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> Joolya might be on a commission with the boat smugglers.lol.




Who knows, Noco, not sure what's in it for her.  Anyway, she's apparently changed her tune since expressing her disapproval when Howard was PM and she was in opposition:

Full article: *That's 100 failures by Julia's logic*



> ''ANOTHER boat on the way, another policy failure," is how deputy prime minister Julia Gillard characterised the flow of people smugglers' vessels when she was in Opposition on April 23, 2003.
> 
> Seven years later, Labor has been in office for two-and-a-half years, and the spate of unlawful boat arrivals has mounted to more than 105 vessels since the Rudd Government introduced its watered down tough-but-humane approach.
> 
> So, Julia, is this more than 100 policy failures? Or would you like me to add all of the other policy disasters: the failed Fuel Watch, Grocery Watch, Murray-Darling program, the lethal home-insulation disaster, the wasteful and disgraceful education revolution building program, and the rest?


----------



## sails

todster said:


> ...The NBN will be built And Malcolm Turnbull's star will burn out just as Abbott intended.




lol Todster - that's a fairly brazen statement.  Any proof?  Source?...


----------



## Knobby22

sails said:


> lol Todster - that's a fairly brazen statement.  Any proof?  Source?...




Pretty logical reasoning, I would have thought.


----------



## Julia

Some amusingly facetious advice for politicians from "The Punch":



> In an effort to ease the strain on our politicians The Punch presents some answers to commonly asked questions about procedure and voting in the new parliament.
> 
> Hi Punch, I’m confused, what party do I belong to?
> 
> This is an important question when considering how to vote. You could be a member of the ALP, the Liberals, the Nationals or the Greens. Unless of course you’re Andrew Wilkie and have been a member of almost all of them.
> 
> But I don’t belong to any of these parties anymore, what am I now?
> 
> Hi Andrew, you’re called an independent now. You will join Rob Oakeshott, Tony Windsor and Bob Katter on what’s called the “cross bench” in political parlance. They, like you, used to belong to a party. It was called the Nationals and is currently on display at the National Museum.
> 
> Hold on, if I’m an independent who do I vote for?
> 
> This is really tricky and a personal decision. Mostly it depends on how much money Julia Gillard or Tony Abbott offered to pump into the multi-billion dollar Death Star currently being built in your electorate. But we suggest you mix it up, bring in ‘wildcards’ to dictate your decision, like tariffs on bananas and personal vendettas dating back to the days when your band toured with MotorHead, only to have the t-shirt money lost by Warren Truss after one of his wild wagers* on how much Jim Bean he could skull.
> 
> 
> Hi I’m Adam Bandt, I’m an MP with the Greens. I’m in a party but I’m all alone, should I hang out with the other parties, or will they try and get me to vote for them?
> 
> Nice suit Adam.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Actually nice glasses too.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> What are you earning as a Green MP to put together a hip outfit like that?
> 
> We at the Greens believe that the price of a hip suit and thick rimmed glasses is between the individual and the state which pays him to wear it. Although I refuse to wear anything made in Singapore because of the brutal use of the death penalty in that country.
> 
> What about China?
> 
> The quality and competitive prices of Chinese tailors outweighs their brutal use of the death penalty.
> 
> Makes sense. Look Adam you can hang out with the major parties all you want, just don’t expect the Liberals to take anything you say seriously because they know deep down you’d like to have them all shipped off to Singapore. Don’t worry the feeling is mutual. And if Cheryl Kernot has taught us anything, it’s that prominent minor party MPs shouldn’t hang out too much with the Foreign Minister. So if Kevin Rudd invites you to “burn the midnight oil” on APEC preparations, politely decline.
> 
> Hi my name is Peter Garrett, what am I doing here?
> 
> We don’t know Peter. Look busy.
> 
> Okay smart guy my name is Scott Morrison and I’ve got a question for you. How are you going to stop the boats?
> 
> What? Sorry Scott I didn’t mention boats.
> 
> Yes you did, just then, how you going to stop them?
> 
> I dunno.
> 
> Ha! no answers. Typical. How would you like a detention centre on your website?
> 
> Not sure. Can they write opinion pieces?
> 
> Hi my name is Peter Slipper. I became deputy-speaker contrary to the wishes of my leader Tony Abbott. Will I always have to vote for the Liberals now?
> 
> Peter there’s an old Sicilian proverb which roughly translates as: if you dare cross the floor Tony Abbott will track you down and break you in two with his bare hands.
> 
> Thanks Punch. Those wise but cryptic Sicilians aye


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Some amusingly facetious advice for politicians from "The Punch":




Good one Julia, just love it.


----------



## sails

With no excuse now for GFC, labor's spending sprees have continued to rise during last quarter.  

Full article: *Spending drives record deficit*



> THE budget deficit hit a record $63.3 billion in the year to September as a result of soaring government spending and stagnant revenue....
> 
> 
> ...CommSec chief economist Craig James says government spending in the first three months of the financial year was $9.6bn higher than it was in the same period last year, while revenue was $1.9bn lower...




Below is a chart from the same article in the Australian:


----------



## noco

sails said:


> With no excuse now for GFC, labor's spending sprees have continued to rise during last quarter.
> 
> Full article: *Spending drives record deficit*
> 
> 
> 
> Below is a chart from the same article in the Australian:




This Gillard Labor Government have no idea how to manage the economy. You don't spend more than you receive except of course  if you keep on borrowing $1million a day. But sooner or later it has to be paid back. By whom? You and me I guess.


----------



## sails

This was on the news this morning and, on the surface, seems quite bizarre given our own rising debt levels.  
What am I missing? How do labor supporters feel about this? 
Are you guys happy with the way the Gillard government is spending?


Full article: *Australia will spend $500m to upgrade Indonesian schools*



> Australia will spend $500 million building 2000 new schools in Indonesia in an effort to improve the prospects of Indonesia's youth and moderate the influence of the country's religious schools







The above photo from the SMH article shows Julia Gillard with Dr Yudhoyono.  
She appears very carefree about dishing out taxpayers funds and yet he has a quizzical and somewhat disparaging look on his face.


----------



## Mofra

Far cheaper to educate moderates than it is to police radicals.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> Far cheaper to educate moderates than it is to police radicals.




Mofra, I understand that you are saying that this is supposed to help with our security.  Sadly, it takes only a dedicated few to wipe out or maim thousands of people.  IMO, giving education to some won't deal with the extremists who are not likely to attend these more moderate types of schools in the first place.

Even here in Australia, Muslims prefer to send their kids to their own schools.  So why they would want it any different in their own countries?

It sounds a bit like the carbon tax issue where a good deal of financial pain for Aussie citizens would make the smallest difference to the problem (if it exists).  It seems an extraordinary expense to Australia for very little apparent purpose.  

I take it you are OK with our tax dollars being spent this way?


----------



## bellenuit

Mofra said:


> Far cheaper to educate moderates than it is to police radicals.




I agree, but can we ensure that the money goes to where we want it. Indonesia, from what I have read, is one of the most corrupt societies in the world. Will the money just get wasted on cronies or replace funds that would have been allocated to schooling in any case, but now gets directed elsewhere, as we have effectively footed part of that cost.


----------



## Julia

Sails, Mofra is probably right.  It's likely money well spent.

President Yudhoyono won't be saying no, of course, and maybe regards it as some 'persuasion' toward securing his co-operation on the so called regional processing centre, something I doubt we will ever see.

This article by Greg Sheridan in today's "The Australian", sums up Ms Gillard's rather undistinguished Asian sojourn.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...in-tour-de-farce/story-e6frg6zo-1225946946825

Extract: 







> Has any new prime minister ever had an initial Southeast Asian tour quite so forlorn as this?


----------



## noco

sails said:


> This was on the news this morning and, on the surface, seems quite bizarre given our own rising debt levels.
> What am I missing? How do labor supporters feel about this?
> Are you guys happy with the way the Gillard government is spending?
> 
> 
> Full article: *Australia will spend $500m to upgrade Indonesian schools*
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 39488
> 
> 
> The above photo from the SMH article shows Julia Gillard with Dr Yudhoyono.
> She appears very carefree about dishing out taxpayers funds and yet he has a quizzical and somewhat disparaging look on his face.




So where does the money come from? Is she going to increase her borrowings to $200 million per day. OMG.


----------



## explod

noco said:


> So where does the money come from? Is she going to increase her borrowings to $200 million per day. OMG.




Where does any of the money come from???  

But the three big E's    education, education and education is the only real solution to the planet's problems.   Good one j u l i y a.

Finally, someone in parliament is using their brains.


----------



## Calliope

bellenuit said:


> I agree, but can we ensure that the money goes to where we want it. Indonesia, from what I have read, is one of the most corrupt societies in the world. Will the money just get wasted on cronies or replace funds that would have been allocated to schooling in any case, but now gets directed elsewhere, as we have effectively footed part of that cost.




I think our money is given to them as a sweetener rather than with any expectation that the money will be used for any useful purpose. They will have watched our BER program with interest and act accordingly.

Hopefully the money will line the pockets of friendly Indonesians and not terrorists.


----------



## explod

sails said:


> The above photo from the SMH article shows Julia Gillard with Dr Yudhoyono.
> She appears very carefree about dishing out taxpayers funds and yet he has a quizzical and somewhat disparaging look on his face.




Rubbish, looks like he tried the hard word and she is not that interested, and on that he is amazed.


----------



## Calliope

So Gillard has returned from her first foray as PM into S.E. Asia. And after her duckwalking across the world stage closely followed by her hairdresser what has this frumpy bogan achieved? When asked, what she was doing all she could reiterate was "to further share information and continue the dialogue."

She kept muttering about some meaningless proposal for off-shore processing asylum seekers without having a clue as to how this would stop the arrivals. Her "girlish charms" failed to impress the The Malayan or Indonesian leaders, nor did her logic. A singular stupidity was her attempt to lecture other states on human rights.

Her achievements? :dunno:


----------



## wayneL

explod said:


> Rubbish, looks like he tried the hard word and she is not that interested, and on that he is amazed.




Wadayamean?

There was no knock back. He got 500 mil.


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> Wadayamean?
> 
> There was no knock back. He got 500 mil.




Yeh, but he *definitely* does not believe it.

Anyway grass is a lot cheaper over there, so maybe we can have high school student exchange and take the burden off the working parents a bit, what with interest rates goinupanall.


----------



## noco

explod said:


> Where does any of the money come from???
> 
> But the three big E's    education, education and education is the only real solution to the planet's problems.   Good one j u l i y a.
> 
> Finally, someone in parliament is using their brains.




Yeah, so long as it's in Aus.  It a pity somebody didn't educate Jooliar. All she knows is brain washed SPIN,SPIN,SPIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## noco

explod said:


> Rubbish, looks like he tried the hard word and she is not that interested, and on that he is amazed.




EXPLOD, CAN YOU BE A BIT MORE EXPLICIT. I think she is trying to sweeten old Bang Bang up to get her out of trouble with the boat people.
I don't think she would put the hard word with Timmy beside her.


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> Mofra, I understand that you are saying that this is supposed to help with our security.  Sadly, it takes only a dedicated few to wipe out or maim thousands of people.  IMO, giving education to some won't deal with the extremists who are not likely to attend these more moderate types of schools in the first place.
> 
> Even here in Australia, Muslims prefer to send their kids to their own schools.  So why they would want it any different in their own countries?



Sails, you can't simply paint all muslims with the same brush as it appears in the second paragraph. If a condition of funding is that both males & females are given the same curriculum (as I understand they are) and that moderate Islam is to be taught, than it can only be a positive in avoiding a vacuum in essential services - the exact vacuum that the Taliban are exploiting amongst the Pushtun peoples in Pakistan & Afganistan by providing medical care and education to win over the population. 

It also should be considered that Indonesia is an extremely crowded archipeligo, and that is combined with a birthrate that far exceeds Australia's. The most striking indicator of birthrate in developing countries is the level of female education in relation to the male population. Boosting education opportunities for the population as a whole is likely to have such follow on effects.

In addition, Australia's proportionate spend of foreign aid is currently below the UN recommended level (I would need to confirm). I would not be surprised if the monies allocated to Indonesia are designated as Foreign Aid in a ploy to increase the chances of a seat at the UN Security council by upping a spending closer to the required level. 

I'd much rather $500m be spent on benefitting ties with a close neighbour than, say, handing money to the inept NSW Gov to allocate to schools or on pink batts.


----------



## sails

Thanks for the considered reply, Mofra, and appreciate your viewpoint..

Yes, I didn't word that paragraph well re Muslims preferring their own schools and didn't mean to imply painting them all with the same brush.  I shouldn't have assumed their preference.  I do know there are many muslim kids in state schools around where I live.  Whether that is their preference or whether it is due to them having a lack of muslim schools and they don't have a choice, I don't know.

I guess the other concern I have and has been raised by others is whether the funds will actually reach the purpose for which they were given.  And do agree with your point that the funds would not necessarily be used wisely in NSW or anywhere here in Australia for that matter.


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> I guess the other concern I have and has been raised by others is whether the funds will actually reach the purpose for which they were given.  And do agree with your point that the funds would not necessarily be used wisely in NSW or anywhere here in Australia for that matter.



That is a concern, however I would hope that given the International spotlight that this particular stream of funding would attract there would be more stringent demands on the output. 
Thankfully it's not the NSW Gov in charge of the spend


----------



## IFocus

Mofra said:


> Sails, you can't simply paint all muslims with the same brush as it appears in the second paragraph. If a condition of funding is that both males & females are given the same curriculum (as I understand they are) and that moderate Islam is to be taught, than it can only be a positive in avoiding a vacuum in essential services - the exact vacuum that the Taliban are exploiting amongst the Pushtun peoples in Pakistan & Afganistan by providing medical care and education to win over the population.




Levels of basic literacy amongst the Phushtun people in some areas is as low as 5%. Hence a large group ripe for radicalization something the Pakistani  ISI exploited to the fullest  to form the original Taliban.


----------



## noco

Another broken promise by the Goose whose Labor Party's promise was to bring the budget back to surplus by 2013. He is now looking for the 'scape goat' to cover up his mishandling of the economy. He has no idea. As Richo said on AM Agenda this morning when Labor get themselves into trouble they somehow make a bad situation worse. But is it not history repeating it self with Labor again and again.

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...s_promised_surplus_threatened_by_a_scapegoat/


----------



## Mofra

IFocus said:


> Levels of basic literacy amongst the Phushtun people in some areas is as low as 5%. Hence a large group ripe for radicalization something the Pakistani  ISI exploited to the fullest  to form the original Taliban.



Bingo - especially if you take into account the low level of international news exposure these people are likely to receive. They are ripe for the first "educators" willing to help and the Taliban are providing that in the absence of an Afgan government presence.


----------



## explod

IFocus said:


> Levels of basic literacy amongst the Phushtun people in some areas is as low as 5%. Hence a large group ripe for radicalization something the Pakistani  ISI exploited to the fullest  to form the original Taliban.




Which is the very reason why the west ought to be putting all efforts and money into schools and educational opportunities in these countries instead of choosing a side and shooting the other side.  We are all the same humans we just should all be given the chance at the same opportunities.  You cannot change the parents but sure can gradually influence the next generation.

Julia seems to have these sorts of ideas in mind.  It is early days so we shall see.  As a woman not sure that she will follow the old ALP status quo.

We live in interesting times and we do not take kindly to change..


----------



## sails

sails said:


> Soon Ms Gillard will be able to boast of a higher record than Howard but still refuses to back down.
> Sadly, coalition's motion was defeated by one vote.
> 
> *Asylum boat numbers outstrip Howard peak*




As a follow up, labor's boat arrivals have now exceeded the coalition's peak in 2004.  The article heading only mentions the last two boats, however as mentioned in the article, there were four boats in that same twenty-four hour period.  They are still coming, thick and fast...:

*Two more boats push arrivals to yearly record*



> The first boat contained 11 passengers and one crew member, while the second vessel had 71 passengers and one crew.
> 
> The additional 82 asylum-seekers pushes the yearly figure to 5548, setting a new record.
> 
> The arrivals ended a busy 24-hour period for Australian Customs vessel Ocean Protector, as it was called upon to intercept four boats within 24 hours.




It seems a lot of people with no identity are paying their way here and jumping the queue.  Some are now being brought to the mainland - and how many more will this government allow in?  How can we know what sort of citizens they are likely to be when effective background checks would be almost impossible?  When watching shows like Border Security and how strict they are, I certainly don't understand Ms Gillard's intentions on having such an easy, open door policy.

The people of Northam are extremely angry:  *Northam fires up over detention centre*

Are labor or green supporters OK with this? ...


----------



## IFocus

explod said:


> Which is the very reason why the west ought to be putting all efforts and money into schools and educational opportunities in these countries instead of choosing a side and shooting the other side.  We are all the same humans we just should all be given the chance at the same opportunities.  You cannot change the parents but sure can gradually influence the next generation.
> 
> Julia seems to have these sorts of ideas in mind.  It is early days so we shall see.  As a woman not sure that she will follow the old ALP status quo.
> 
> We live in interesting times and we do not take kindly to change..




Explod read up on this guy absolute legend Greg Mortenson listen to an interview on the BBC blew me away

http://www.gregmortenson.com/biography/


----------



## trainspotter

*Tempers flare at detention centre meeting* 

The meeting was held to address the residents' concerns after Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced two weeks ago, Northam would house up to 1500 single male asylum seekers.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-detention-centre-meeting-20101104-17fbl.html

Noice one Jooolyah ..... Not happy with the East Timor solution after she had her pointy large nose rubbed in the carpet she is now dumping asylum seekers into the wheatbelt of WA.


----------



## trainspotter

Yeppers ...... We all love our PM. She gave us the following:

1) BER - EPIC FAIL http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...-school-mistakes/story-e6frgczf-1225892389548
2) East Timor Solution - Another FAIL http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...-school-mistakes/story-e6frgczf-1225892389548
3) Mining Tax Debacle - MASSIVE FAIL http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-to-hide-emperors-con-job-20100714-10b6w.html


----------



## Logique

trainspotter said:


> *Tempers flare at detention centre meeting*
> The meeting was held to address the residents' concerns after Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced two weeks ago, Northam would house up to 1500 single male asylum seekers.http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-detention-centre-meeting-20101104-17fbl.html



The footage was very prominently featured on news and current affairs programs. It's a while since I've seen that kind of anger at a public meeting. In Griffith in south west NSW last month, a meeting of local irrigators with the Murray-Darling bureaucrats had similar levels of public anger.

Labor are discovering that governing is hard. It's much easier to stand on the sidelines with exaggerated piety and say '..isn't it awful..' and snipe at somebody else. Even their most diehard supporters must now acknowledge that the Govt has lost control of the national borders. 

Interesting similarity to the Northam and Griffith meetings - no Labor pollies. And no Green pollies. Experts on what should happen in the regions, but never sighted there. They breezed in and out beforehand, leaving the bureaucrats to cop the flak.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> ...Interesting similarity to the Northam and Griffith meetings - no Labor pollies. And no Green pollies. Experts on what should happen in the regions, but never sighted there. They breezed in and out beforehand, leaving the bureaucrats to cop the flak.




Makes the Labor pollies look like cowards.  
Bullies are cowards and find targets they can hurt but ensure they can't get hurt themselves.

Surely labor / green supporters are not OK with this?  I can't imagine anyone really wanting the best for our country would want this sort of thing to continue...


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Surely labor / green supporters are not OK with this?  I can't imagine anyone really wanting the best for our country would want this sort of thing to continue...




Safe state / federal  Liberal / Nat party seats perfect spot for a center 

There is actual support for the center from local business and local state MPs have been negociting the best deal they can get with the federal goverment funny you do hear about this in the press. 

Also there has been a fair amount of stirring coming from outside the Northam community feeding into the stop the boats rubbish.  

I can understand the concern the neighbors to the center have.


----------



## noco

How about building a detention centre in the Electorate of Lalor?


----------



## noco

It would appear very obvious the Gillard Government will be short lived when one reads of the adverse comments coming from her own stalwarts. Some dramatic changes will have to be made to the Labor Party if they want to survive the Green push factor.

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...il/comments/labor_doesnt_merely_lack_tactics/


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> It would appear very obvious the Gillard Government will be short lived when one reads of the adverse comments coming from her own stalwarts.




I heard those comments from Karl Bitar on ABC Radio yesterday and was astonished at his candour.  They add weight to the comments of Paul Howe in his recent book.


----------



## Logique

What I find most shocking about today's Labor Party is that it doesn't really represent the working class anymore, it's become the plaything of aspirational urban professional elites.

Can anyone believe today that the ALP started under a gum tree in Barcaldine in western QLD?

Remember Howard's battlers. They were rusted on ALP once upon a time. The ALP has become a nepotistic closed circle of careerists. Union organiser - parliamentary staffer - parachuted into House of Reps or Senate. A goldfish would have a better grasp of contemporary Australian life.  

It's not the party of Curtin or Chifley any more. I think you'll find that more than one past ALP leader agrees.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> What I find most shocking about today's Labor Party is that it doesn't really represent the working class anymore, it's become the plaything of aspirational urban professional elites.
> 
> Can anyone believe today that the ALP started under a gum tree in Barcaldine in western QLD?
> 
> Remember Howard's battlers. They were rusted on ALP once upon a time. The ALP has become a nepotistic closed circle of careerists. Union organiser - parliamentary staffer - parachuted into House of Reps or Senate. A goldfish would have a better grasp of contemporary Australian life.
> 
> It's not the party of Curtin or Chifley any more. I think you'll find that more than one past ALP leader agrees.




True, same with the Liberals and we know one previous Liberal leader agrees.
We seem to be building a ruling class.


----------



## Boggo

A young woman was about to finish her first year of university. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be very labor minded, and she was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs - in other words, the redistribution of wealth.

 She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch blue-ribbon liberal, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had attended, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harboured an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

 One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs.

 The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth, and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing at university.

 Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 90% average, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many university friends because she spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Audrey doing?" She replied, "Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies and she barely has a 50% average. She is so popular on campus; university for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over."

 Her wise father asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 20% off your average and give it to your friend who only has 50%. That way you will both have a 70% average, and certainly that would be fair and equal."

 The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, "That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!"

 The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, "Welcome to the Liberal side of the fence."


----------



## OllieG

I guess the important thing is that it doesn't really matter what the overall government is doing. Just look at GST - I remember when that first came about, there was significant dispute from the labor government when it was implemented and was a huge campaign difference between the parties. Now look at them - they are using GST money like its going out of fashion!


----------



## IFocus

On the bigger issues

By Paul Kelly

GILLARD Labor has sensibly decided to support a bigger American presence.



> The message sent by Labor this week has long-run consequences. It means the Australian-American alliance is being adapted to meet China's rise and the evolving power balance in Asia. Gillard Labor, acting on the foundations laid by Rudd Labor, has committed to a deeper strategic partnership with the US.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...o-strident-china/story-e6frg6zo-1225950377275


----------



## Julia

Boggo said:


> A young woman was about to finish her first year of university. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be very labor minded, and she was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs - in other words, the redistribution of wealth.
> 
> She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch blue-ribbon liberal, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had attended, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harboured an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.
> 
> One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs.
> 
> The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth, and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing at university.
> 
> Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 90% average, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many university friends because she spent all her time studying.
> 
> Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Audrey doing?" She replied, "Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies and she barely has a 50% average. She is so popular on campus; university for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over."
> 
> Her wise father asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 20% off your average and give it to your friend who only has 50%. That way you will both have a 70% average, and certainly that would be fair and equal."
> 
> The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, "That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!"
> 
> The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, "Welcome to the Liberal side of the fence."



Great illustration, Boggo.  Maybe forward it to the Greens et al?




OllieG said:


> I guess the important thing is that it doesn't really matter what the overall government is doing.



It doesn't matter what the government is doing?????


----------



## Logique

Knobby22 said:


> True, same with the Liberals..



Nice try Knobby. To a much lesser extent and always has been.


----------



## Calliope

*Julia Von Trapp: Gillard mistaken for Austrian hausfrau by G20 hosts
*
Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world/julia-...ts/story-e6frfkyi-1225951442285#ixzz14vJxPTBb

That's our Julia in the middle.


----------



## Logique

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1408591/Koreans-mistake-Gillard-for-Austrian
*Koreans mistake Gillard for Austrian*  11 November 2010 

It appears something has been lost in translation at the G20 summit in South Korea.

In a quirky tribute to its powerful guests, the host nation has crafted a set of dolls in the likeness of world leaders.

However, Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard appears to have been mistakenly depicted as an Austrian.

She might be holding the correct flag, but Ms Gillard's red and white puff-sleeved dress and pink apron is distinctly reminiscent of the traditional Austrian tracht.

The dolls are being displayed on a river float in Seoul, ahead of the two-day G20 summit which starts on Thursday.

Picture under: Julia Gillard appears to be wearing the traditional Austrian and Bavarian tracht outfit (AAP)


----------



## Calliope

Rudd must be laughing his head off. But if he had been there, there is no guarantee that he wouldn't have been dressed like this;


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Great illustration, Boggo.  Maybe forward it to the Greens et al?



The Greens wouldn't be happy until it was 25% average, lights out at 8:30pm and a diet of hardcore raw veganism.

EDIT: That should read candles out at 8:30pm.


----------



## todster

Looks more like an Aussie housewife Xmas day


----------



## Mofra

Boggo said:


> A young woman was about to finish her first year of university. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be very labor minded, and she was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs - in other words, the redistribution of wealth.
> 
> She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch blue-ribbon liberal, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had attended, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harboured an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.
> 
> One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs.
> 
> The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth, and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing at university.
> 
> Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 90% average, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many university friends because she spent all her time studying.
> 
> Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Audrey doing?" She replied, "Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies and she barely has a 50% average. She is so popular on campus; university for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over."
> 
> Her wise father asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 20% off your average and give it to your friend who only has 50%. That way you will both have a 70% average, and certainly that would be fair and equal."
> 
> The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, "That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!"
> 
> The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, "Welcome to the Liberal side of the fence."



^^^ Haha, far right supporters actually believe this resembles "valid commentary"


----------



## Logique

I was wondering why the Aussie PM is the only one with a tilted flag , and of all things she's tilting it to her right, although to our left. In symbolic terms, in't that the truth. But they got the colours right.


----------



## trainspotter

*HO HO HO ..... Merry Christmas Taxpayers Rejoice !*

"The massive turnover of staff and the $5.4 million cost to the Australian taxpayer is a direct consequence of a Labor Government that has lost control of itself and of the government. A total cost of nearly $7 million is another example of a Labor Government out of control."

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/cou...rs/story-e6frfkvr-1225952377660#ixzz152PIJTOs


----------



## wayneL

Mofra said:


> ^^^ Haha, far right supporters actually believe this resembles "valid commentary"




Where does this "far right" thing come from. I don't see any fascists around here.


----------



## noco

trainspotter said:


> *HO HO HO ..... Merry Christmas Taxpayers Rejoice !*
> 
> "The massive turnover of staff and the $5.4 million cost to the Australian taxpayer is a direct consequence of a Labor Government that has lost control of itself and of the government. A total cost of nearly $7 million is another example of a Labor Government out of control."
> 
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/cou...rs/story-e6frfkvr-1225952377660#ixzz152PIJTOs




TP, $7 million is 'PEANUTS' to the Labor Party. They believe money grows on trees. You know the one they call the mineral tree. 
Yes, they are out of control and the sooner they go the better it will be for all.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> TP, $7 million is 'PEANUTS' to the Labor Party. They believe money grows on trees. You know the one they call the mineral tree.
> Yes, they are out of control and the sooner they go the better it will be for all.




I sometimes wonder if the labor government is deliberately trying to leave an awful mess in the event the libs win government at some stage.

Maybe in the hope that voters won't like the pain caused by bringing the budget and other issues back under control.  

It is a worry as to how much damage this government can do should they remain in power for the full term.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> I sometimes wonder if the labor government is deliberately trying to leave an awful mess in the event the libs win government at some stage.
> 
> Maybe in the hope that voters won't like the pain caused by bringing the budget and other issues back under control.
> 
> It is a worry as to how much damage this government can do should they remain in power for the full term.




sails, it's history repeating itself over and over again. The Labor Party are notorious for bad economic managment.


----------



## drsmith

As crook as this government is, that generalisation is perhaps a little extreme.


----------



## noco

How can anyone trust the Treasurer of this Labor Government. Swan has been exposed once again for his slight of hand tricks.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...rmail/comments/swan_saves_by_taxing_you_more/


----------



## joea

Hi.
Because we live in a democracy, and the labour government is in power, its basically a wait and see period on how they go.
Firstly we have accept they won the right to govern. That's a fact.
We will soon see how capable they are.
My personal opinion is that Wayne Swan could not organise, or  balance a church fete.
But thats not the point. 50% of the people think he can.

So no matter how many times we quote the media etc. Gillard is running Australia.

What we have to accept is, that in Australia we have the opportunty to express ourselves as does the media.

What Australians have to do, is ensure that at the first opportunity that we have a government that we are cofident with.

The coming state elections will show the current opinion of the Australian
people.

We have been conned, but thats the nature of politics.

Cheers


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Hi.
> Because we live in a democracy, and the labour government is in power, its basically a wait and see period on how they go.
> Firstly we have accept they won the right to govern. That's a fact.
> We will soon see how capable they are.
> My personal opinion is that Wayne Swan could not organise, or  balance a church fete.
> But thats not the point. 50% of the people think he can.
> 
> So no matter how many times we quote the media etc. Gillard is running Australia.
> 
> What we have to accept is, that in Australia we have the opportunty to express ourselves as does the media.
> 
> What Australians have to do, is ensure that at the first opportunity that we have a government that we are cofident with.
> 
> The coming state elections will show the current opinion of the Australian
> people.
> 
> We have been conned, but thats the nature of politics.
> 
> Cheers




joea, I can only agree with you, but nevertheless, this government must be exposed for all their wrong doings on a regular basis otherwise they will endeavour to make voters believe they are doing a great job. This is where a good opposition should be on the ball daily.


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> Hi.
> Because we live in a democracy, and the labour government is in power, its basically a wait and see period on how they go.
> Firstly we have accept they won the right to govern. That's a fact.



Yes they have, but not by an outright majority by any means.
They are in power simply because the Independents who were able to decide who became government had old scores to settle with the National Party.
Not at all because they had any genuine faith in the competence of the Labor Party.



> We will soon see how capable they are.



Their incompetence is already apparent.



> My personal opinion is that Wayne Swan could not organise, or  balance a church fete.
> But thats not the point. 50% of the people think he can.



As above, that's simply not true.  The Coalition won the primary vote.



> The coming state elections will show the current opinion of the Australian
> people.



To some extent, perhaps, but the State vote will have much to do with local State issues.  All the State Labor governments seem to have been on the nose for some time.  The reason they've been there for as long as they have has more to do with incompetent and stupid Oppositions, than any belief by the electorate that they are actually doing a decent job.



> We have been conned, but thats the nature of politics.



This is a really interesting allegation.  Have we actually been conned?
From a purely personal point of view (and I know plenty who feel the same), I don't feel I've been conned by anyone.  I voted for whom I considered to be the least worst option.  Never at any stage had any belief that any of the options would provide decent government.  I suspect much of the electorate felt similarly.

Hence the considerable movement to the Greens who at least appear to stand for something.
Now if the media would just apply the same blow torch to the Greens' policies and ask them for the same level of explanations that they do with the two major parties, some of that default to Greens vote would fall away, as people understand their policies are not costed (or if they are the budget would blow out beyond belief), and that their 'feel good' environmental stuff masks a heavily socialist agenda.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Hence the considerable movement to the Greens who at least appear to stand for something.
> Now if the media would just apply the same blow torch to the Greens' policies and ask them for the same level of explanations that they do with the two major parties, some of that default to Greens vote would fall away, as people understand their policies are not costed (or if they are the budget would blow out beyond belief), and that their 'feel good' environmental stuff masks a heavily socialist agenda.




The ABC gives immunity to the Greens and as you say their ideology and polices should be exposed for what they really stand for in the political world.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ay_marriage_will_divorce_labor_from_its_base/


----------



## todster

The Coalition party never heard of them.


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> As above, that's simply not true.  The Coalition won the primary vote.
> 
> .




Actually Labor ended up winning the the two party preferred vote minuscule as it was 
Peter Brent writing from his blog picked up by the Australian covered this 

"Labor wins the two party preferred vote 50.1 to 49.9"

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...wins_the_two_party_preferred_vote_501_to_499/


----------



## -Bevo-

Labors next broken promise, can add it to the long list of failures and broken promises the Gillard government is now looking worse than Rudd for example Rudd didn't know his policys would all be a disaster yet Gillard is going ahead with the same incompetent ideas Rudd went for, knowing they ended badly.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/population-boom-inevitable-pm-told-20101113-17rtz.html


----------



## noco

-Bevo- said:


> Labors next broken promise, can add it to the long list of failures and broken promises the Gillard government is now looking worse than Rudd for example Rudd didn't know his policys would all be a disaster yet Gillard is going ahead with the same incompetent ideas Rudd went for, knowing they ended badly.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/population-boom-inevitable-pm-told-20101113-17rtz.html




As ex Senator Graham Richardson said on AM Agenda a week ago, "When the Labor Party stuff something up, they some how are good at making a bad situation worse".


----------



## drsmith

Some more populist rubbish from the ALP's bed partner.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/greens-call-for-twoyear-rate-rise-limit-20101114-17sfq.html


----------



## Julia

The more air time Senator Brown receives, the more he exposes his woeful ignorance.


----------



## Mofra

wayneL said:


> Where does this "far right" thing come from. I don't see any fascists around here.



We'll respectfully disagree considering the comments on this thread and others. I note a Pro-Hanson thread has sprung up as well


----------



## Mofra

Julia said:


> Now if the media would just apply the same blow torch to the Greens' policies and ask them for the same level of explanations that they do with the two major parties, some of that default to Greens vote would fall away, as people understand their policies are not costed (or if they are the budget would blow out beyond belief), and that their 'feel good' environmental stuff masks a heavily socialist agenda.



Would probably expose the spectrum of ideas from the good to the ludicrous (fixing/legislating bank rates would be a disaster IMO).

I note that Bob Brown is happy for an independant treasury costings process to take place in Vic, which makes the Greens more transparent than Ballieu in some respects.


----------



## nioka

Mofra said:


> We'll respectfully disagree considering the comments on this thread and others. I note a Pro-Hanson thread has sprung up as well




You ASSUME a PRO Hanson thread. What is PRO about discussing a current news item that poses a question?  Let's just call it a discussion on Hansonism. It is there. It is not going to go away any more than the greens, Oakshot or Katter will vanish into thin air. It was not started as A PRO job.
Many of the views expressed by her would be favoured by many serving politicians. She bundled all them together and had the guts to say them. I don't agree with them all but, being the forum red neck, I must say that there are some that are spot on the money.


----------



## noco

As I have mentioned on previous posts, an increase in the GST is not only neccessary but inevitable as reported by the OECD. Whether the Gillard Government will take heed or not, I doubt she has the fortitude to procede with such an unpopular bold step. 
Her alternative is to raise tax revenue from other methods upon which voters would have no idea how it will affect the cost of living. Unavoidable costs which will have to be passed on from business.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...old-to-raise-gst/story-fn59niix-1225953466896


----------



## wayneL

Mofra said:


> We'll respectfully disagree considering the comments on this thread and others. I note a Pro-Hanson thread has sprung up as well




You will have to be comfortable with those of the left being termed Stalinists, Trotskyites and Socialist bastids then. 

Just to even things up a little. :

(Actually, that's probably not too far from the truth )


----------



## sails

The following came through on email so don't know if it is factual.  If it is, there is something very wrong and would give further reason for the boats to keep coming.  How can they need another $145 per week for hardship is beyond me and Aussie battlers and homeless would be absolutely fuming.

Does anyone know how to verify if these facts true?
.


----------



## boofhead

I'm very sure it is not factual. Alan Jones got busted airing the same stuff last year. Seems to be part of the same crap where the government name is changed to match the country.

Visit http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/individuals/settle_pay_humrefugee.htm and it may give more details for what you seek.


----------



## Mofra

wayneL said:


> You will have to be comfortable with those of the left being termed Stalinists, Trotskyites and Socialist bastids then.
> 
> Just to even things up a little. :
> 
> (Actually, that's probably not too far from the truth )



WayneL, are you new to this site? Anyone who doesn't sit on the right hand side of Ganghis Khan is labelled a sociallist 
(Actually it's why I used the lebel in the first place - response rather than initiator)

I also note Gillard's speech imploring free trade has been ignored by the "reds under the bed" crew.


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> The following came through on email so don't know if it is factual.  If it is, there is something very wrong and would give further reason for the boats to keep coming.  How can they need another $145 per week for hardship is beyond me and Aussie battlers and homeless would be absolutely fuming.
> 
> Does anyone know how to verify if these facts true?
> .



Nope, but it seems enough people believe this stuff to make demonising "boat people" a vote winner.

As I understand it until refugee status is granted they get nothing in allowances/support.


----------



## drsmith

boofhead said:


> I'm very sure it is not factual. Alan Jones got busted airing the same stuff last year. Seems to be part of the same crap where the government name is changed to match the country.
> 
> Visit http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/individuals/settle_pay_humrefugee.htm and it may give more details for what you seek.



Anyone want to work out effective marginal tax rates after taking all the following into account ?



> Payment rates factsheet for individual payments
> For information on a specific payment, please select one of the following:
> 
> Family Assistance Office Guide to payments [3]- for all Family Assistance Office payments, including Family Tax Benefit Part A, Family Tax Benefit Part B and Child Care Benefit.
> Bereavement Allowance payment rates[4] - for Bereavement Allowance.
> CDEP payment rates[5] - for Community Development Employment Projects.
> Disability & Carer payment rates[6] - for Disability Support Pension, Sickness Allowance, Carer Payment, Carer Allowance and Mobility Allowance.
> Education payment rates[7] - for Austudy, ABSTUDY, Pensioner Education Supplement and Assistance for Isolated Childrens Scheme.
> Newstart payment rates[8] - for Newstart Allowance.
> Parenting payment rates[9] - for Parenting Payment and Double Orphan Pension.
> Partner Allowance payment rates[10] - for Partner Allowance.
> Remote Area Allowance payment rates[11] - for Remote Area Allowance.
> Seniors payment rates[12] - for Age Pension and Pension Bonus Scheme.
> Special Benefit payment rates[13] - for Special Benefit.
> Youth payment rates[14] - for Youth Allowance.
> Widow Allowance payment rates[15] - for Widow Allowance.




http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/publications/co029.htm


----------



## drsmith

The way in which Family Tax Benefit Part A is means tested is complex to say the least, but the worst of it is for incomes over $94,316. A means test of 30% combined with a marginal tax rate on 38.5% (including Medicare) results in an EMTR of 68.5%. 

But Wait. It gets worse with FTB Part B, potentially much worse.

For two parent families where the primary earner has an adjusted taxable income (whatever that is) of more than $150,000, there's no thin slices per dollar. It just gets chopped off whole.  
Earn $150,001 (in adjusted taxable income terms  ) and for that extra dollar, $ thousands could be lost depending on the number of kids and the secondary earner's income.

http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/ftb_b_iat.htm


----------



## Julia

boofhead said:


> I'm very sure it is not factual. Alan Jones got busted airing the same stuff last year. Seems to be part of the same crap where the government name is changed to match the country.
> 
> Visit http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/individuals/settle_pay_humrefugee.htm and it may give more details for what you seek.



Yep, various versions of this mischievous stuff have been circulating on the internet for a couple of years.


----------



## Julia

Mofra said:


> Nope, but it seems enough people believe this stuff to make demonising "boat people" a vote winner.



That might be over-simplifying the reasons why so many are unhappy about these people, Mofra.
I doubt very much that the majority who have concerns about the way they come to Australia necessarily believe they are receiving special financial benefits.



> As I understand it until refugee status is granted they get nothing in allowances/support.



I think that's right.  However, they're housed, frequently in motels, given medical and dental care.   There is some reasonably understandable resentment in the community that our own homeless people don't have access to the same resources.

I don't have any answers.  Can see all sides of this situation.


----------



## Mofra

Julia said:


> I think that's right.  However, they're housed, frequently in motels, given medical and dental care.   There is some reasonably understandable resentment in the community that our own homeless people don't have access to the same resources.



There are many groups that *do* try to support the homeless. 
I don't believe the "homeless get nothing" argument is quite as transparent when the costs of public housing, social welfare, non-means tested healthcare, tax deductability of charitable groups and financial support of charity groups is included. 

Should we do more? Probably. Does this therefore absolve our responsibilities to abide by Australian and International law in relation to other groups of people? No, I don't think so.


----------



## sails

boofhead said:


> I'm very sure it is not factual. Alan Jones got busted airing the same stuff last year. Seems to be part of the same crap where the government name is changed to match the country.
> 
> Visit http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/individuals/settle_pay_humrefugee.htm and it may give more details for what you seek.




Thanks boofhead.  Yes, looks like it is untrue.  



Mofra said:


> Nope, but it seems enough people believe this stuff to make demonising "boat people" a vote winner.
> 
> As I understand it until refugee status is granted they get nothing in allowances/support.




It does seems rather silly to exaggerate the situation with this sort of email.  However, with this government spending like there is no tomorrow, it seemed quite plausible and I'm sure there will be many who will take that email at face value.  

There is quite enough concern with the amount of people who arrive without papers and, as such, have no known background and are being given resident status here without untruthful emails to exaggerate the situation any further.

It's certainly not skin colour or nationality that worries me - it's those that may have criminal histories or, worse still, may have intent to hurt the Aussie people in the future or try to introduce laws to enforce their minority ideas.  The greens are a good example of how this can be achieved.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> There are many groups that *do* try to support the homeless.
> I don't believe the "homeless get nothing" argument is quite as transparent when the costs of public housing, social welfare, non-means tested healthcare, tax deductability of charitable groups and financial support of charity groups is included.
> 
> Should we do more? Probably. Does this therefore absolve our responsibilities to abide by Australian and International law in relation to other groups of people? No, I don't think so.




Mofra, with Australia going deeper and deeper into debt, how long can we continue to support other people - especially those that arrive at their own whim and where there is no history and we don't know how genuinely needy either? There are needs in our own communities that are not being met. I'm not talking about wants - but genuine needs.

I do know that our own homeless struggle to get somewhere to live.  A couple of years ago, I was in contact with various charity groups and others who were in the know regarding the plight of our homeless.  There was a general frustration that migrants (apparently seen with wads of money) were being given houses while our own needy families living in cars, etc. were made to wait.


----------



## derty

sails said:


> Mofra, with Australia going deeper and deeper into debt, how long can we continue to support other people -



Relative to most of the rest of the world our debt levels with respect to GDP are surprisingly very low. Even with the stimulus packages and other enterprises the Labor govt has thrown money at.


----------



## sails

derty said:


> Relative to most of the rest of the world our debt levels with respect to GDP are surprisingly very low. Even with the stimulus packages and other enterprises the Labor govt has thrown money at.




Derty, that doesn't alter the fact that money is being dished out when things at home are not right.  But, obviously we see things differently.

And to make a comparison to other countries where some are in financial distress doesn't seem a good benchmark.  It's a bit like fund managers saying the market lost 20% and we only lost 15%.  Investors still lose money.  

It does appear that email I posted earlier is a hoax.  Someone suggested checking the hoax-slayer and found it there:  http://www.hoax-slayer.com/refugee-payment-hoax.shtml


----------



## wayneL

derty said:


> Relative to most of the rest of the world our debt levels with respect to GDP are surprisingly very low. Even with the stimulus packages and other enterprises the Labor govt has thrown money at.




A lot of gu'mint debt is hidden in the private sector via PPPs etc.

You need to look at total external debt.


----------



## moXJO

derty said:


> Relative to most of the rest of the world our debt levels with respect to GDP are surprisingly very low. Even with the stimulus packages and other enterprises the Labor govt has thrown money at.




That doesn't make it any better.


----------



## derty

wayneL said:


> A lot of gu'mint debt is hidden in the private sector via PPPs etc.
> 
> You need to look at total external debt.



Are PPP debts and other govt liabilities collated somewhere or is it a figure that is only speculated on? Would be interesting to see how that alters the standings and how healthy we are relatively. 

Though is external debt (all public and private debt) a valid way of assessing a govt's fiscal health? List of Global External Debt: Aust = 92% GDP

Also found this :Why Total Debt/GDP Hides West's Sick Finances


----------



## Julia

Mofra said:


> There are many groups that *do* try to support the homeless.



Yes, usually church based and private not-for-profit groups.
Why should they be doing the job that governments should be doing?

Let's agree that there are only so many taxpayer dollars available.
Why do you think it's more appropriate that these funds are being spent on asylum seekers being accommodated e.g. in motels, (in one notable instance with a personal trainer thrown in to keep them healthy!),  before we care for Australian citizens, many of whom have probably contributed to the taxation system before perhaps becoming mentally and subsequently homeless?

Just a very simple explanation of why you prioritise people coming here who are not prepared to apply via UNHCR over Australians who are disadvantaged and in genuine need would be appreciated.


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> Mofra, with Australia going deeper and deeper into debt, how long can we continue to support other people - especially those that arrive at their own whim and where there is no history and we don't know how genuinely needy either? There are needs in our own communities that are not being met. I'm not talking about wants - but genuine needs.



Our debt is miniscule comparitively speaking, on a total and a per capita basis.

We spend only a tiny proportion of our GDP on refugees, and the money spent is done so in the most inefficient manner possible as successive governments needs to be seen as being harsh on refugees as both have indulged in turning what is a tiny problem for Australia into a major issue (blatant vote buying). 

~90% of asylum seekers are granted refugee status, so is sending the bulk of them to offshore processing centres, spending $$$ on huge allowances and capital works in remote/island locations (my cousin has had successive contracts at Christmas Island as a guard, earns more than in the mining sector) is poor economics.


----------



## Mofra

Julia said:


> Yes, usually church based and private not-for-profit groups.
> Why should they be doing the job that governments should be doing?
> 
> Let's agree that there are only so many taxpayer dollars available.
> Why do you think it's more appropriate that these funds are being spent on asylum seekers being accommodated e.g. in motels, (in one notable instance with a personal trainer thrown in to keep them healthy!),  before we care for Australian citizens, many of whom have probably contributed to the taxation system before perhaps becoming mentally and subsequently homeless?
> 
> Just a very simple explanation of why you prioritise people coming here who are not prepared to apply via UNHCR over Australians who are disadvantaged and in genuine need would be appreciated.



Julia, it's very unfair to make untrue accusations such as "prioritising" refugees over those who are here. I don't, and if anyone else was making the same accusation I'd hope they'd be called to account.

We already prioritise homeless or needy Australians in spending - the cost of public housing is enormous, and no financial support is granted to asylum seekers until residency is granted - at that point, they are then just catching up to what people born here have access to. 

As you have noted, there are community groups that do much of the legwork for the homeless - just as they do in the refugee sector. Again, no difference.

I do find it amusing that the assumption seems to be that refugees are merely a drain on taxpayers (as you have alluded to in your "taxpayer dollars available" sentence above). Given a Czech refugee is currently Australia's richest man, one wonders if Australia is actually increasing it's tax revenue on a lifetime basis merely by (barely) meeting it's UNHCR obligations. It seems to make economic sense to allow genuine refugees to set themselves up to become net taxpayers in society.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> Julia, it's very unfair to make untrue accusations such as "prioritising" refugees over those who are here. I don't, and if anyone else was making the same accusation I'd hope they'd be called to account...




Is it noble or gullible to call the illegal boat arrivals "refugees"?  How do we know they are genuine refugees when they arrive without ID or papers?  Are they really in need to be worthy of Aussie tax payer's handouts? 

Quite possibly some are genuine, but I still have trouble justifying the price required to pay a smuggler in the first place to book a ticket on a rickity boat.  They seem to have money.

Another 100+ have arrived bringing the total to over 5,500 so far just this year.  http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/mp/8335577/asylum-boat-carrying-118-stopped/


----------



## moXJO

derty said:


> Relative to most of the rest of the world our debt levels with respect to GDP are surprisingly very low. Even with the stimulus packages and other enterprises the Labor govt has thrown money at.




Is that debt just in the last 3 years?


----------



## IFocus

Mofra said:


> Julia, it's very unfair to make untrue accusations such as "prioritising" refugees over those who are here. I don't, and if anyone else was making the same accusation I'd hope they'd be called to account.
> 
> We already prioritise homeless or needy Australians in spending - the cost of public housing is enormous, and no financial support is granted to asylum seekers until residency is granted - at that point, they are then just catching up to what people born here have access to.
> 
> As you have noted, there are community groups that do much of the legwork for the homeless - just as they do in the refugee sector. Again, no difference.
> 
> I do find it amusing that the assumption seems to be that refugees are merely a drain on taxpayers (as you have alluded to in your "taxpayer dollars available" sentence above). Given a Czech refugee is currently Australia's richest man, one wonders if Australia is actually increasing it's tax revenue on a lifetime basis merely by (barely) meeting it's UNHCR obligations. It seems to make economic sense to allow genuine refugees to set themselves up to become net taxpayers in society.




For the life of me I cannot find the research but have seen some that shows boat people being more successful / lower crime rate than other migrants groups.


----------



## Julia

Mofra said:


> Julia, it's very unfair to make untrue accusations such as "prioritising" refugees over those who are here. I don't, and if anyone else was making the same accusation I'd hope they'd be called to account



I'm not suggesting you are in any position to prioritise anything that happens regarding the care of our own homeless Australian citizens and asylum seekers.
I'm simply saying that there are only so many funds to cater for all needs, and once we have accounted for probably about half the total which are completely wasted (eg pink batts, BER, etc), the remaining tax take has to be spread amongst various humanitarian programmes.

Of course you can choose to think we should build more detention centres, pay for motels on the mainland, complete with personal trainers, provide complete medical and dental care to people who are not at that stage proven to be refugees at all, just as I can consider that I'd rather that amount of the tax take should go to treating our own mentally ill people, e.g. who are homeless as a result of inadequate care being available for them.

Or even perhaps those Australian tax payers who have been retrenched in the downturn, through no lack of work ethic on their part, and are on the dole at a bit over $200 per week, from which quite obviously they can meet neither mortgage nor rent payments.  Who cares if they have contributed to the tax system for thirty years?  No one, it seems.

It's all good, as long as we show caring and sympathy to asylum seekers, many of whom I'd have to think should be fighting for their own country in Afghanistan and Iraq, rather than allowing our Australian soldiers to do so.

The last figures I read, I think from Chris Bowen's office but not sure, are that around 50% of arrivals are shown not to be genuine refugees and are in detention centres awaiting removal back to their home country.
I suspect all these quoted figures are a bit rubbery in both directions.

Just as one example, the Iraqi man who hanged himself a couple of days ago at Villawood.  His initial application for refugee status was rejected.  He went on through the appeal process and was again found not to be a genuine refugee.
He volunteered at that stage to return home, but when arrangements were made for him to do so, he reneged on this and decided he would insist on staying.
He changed his mind again, again saying he would return home, and the same roundabout occurred.
This is as I heard the story on Radio National this morning

I suppose few of our individual opinions are ever actually considered in Canberra, so the fact that some of us would like to see our own citizens cared for before we spend hundreds of millions on people who refuse to apply to come to this country via the routine UNHCR avenues is largely irrelevant.




> We already prioritise homeless or needy Australians in spending - the cost of public housing is enormous,



I disagree.  We do not prioritise homeless or needy Australians at all.
May I respectfully ask if you've ever worked in the welfare sector, Mofra?

The amount spent on public housing is way, way less than it should be.
Once upon a time, governments did build a reasonable amount of public housing for people on low incomes.  Then they decreed that was no longer practical and instead of disadvantaged people being offered low rent accommodation, subsidised by governments, a new system of 'rent assistance' was put in place.

This is still in place these days.  Instead of spending the money on building low rent housing, people on Centrelink benefits are eligible if they are renting, and have below a certain level of income, to obtain "Rent Assistance".
Then they have to go out and find their own accommodation on the general market, armed with their massive rent assistance subsidy.
The last time I looked, this ran out at about $210 per fortnight, so hardly enough to pay for even one week's rent, let alone two.

It's a policy which has been about as successful as the "close down the psychiatric institutions and we will care for the mentally ill in the community" nonsense.
They certainly cut off the institutionalised care, or provision of public housing, but absolutely did not adequately fund the proper care of people who had these needs within the community.

Maybe take a walk through one or two of the squalid caravan parks that exist in most areas.  That's where you'll find the dregs of Australian society who are unable to care for themselves.  Hang around a bit and you'll see them beaten, robbed, and abused in many other ways.

So, perhaps, before our hearts bleed too much for people who are not prepared to seek admission to Australia by UNHCR channels, just consider  some of the abject misery which constitutes the lives of many Australians.



> As you have noted, there are community groups that do much of the legwork for the homeless - just as they do in the refugee sector. Again, no difference.



I understand what you're trying to say here, but it should be the responsibility of governments to care for our own citizens.  The government does provide full housing, meals, medical and dental care to asylum seekers while they are being assessed.
They simply do not provide a similar level of care to our own people and that is what I and many others are so resentful about.


----------



## nioka

derty said:


> Relative to most of the rest of the world our debt levels with respect to GDP are surprisingly very low. Even with the stimulus packages and other enterprises the Labor govt has thrown money at.




The only reason our debt level is low is because we have sold the farm to pay the debt. We are selling out Australian businesses, land, water, mineral rights, public infrastructure etc to a point that we are left with only the air around us left to sell and that is on the list as the next to go.

Wake up Australians. We are being conned and scammed by the system. Wake up before it is too late or is it allready too late to wake up?


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> Is it noble or gullible to call the illegal boat arrivals "refugees"?  How do we know they are genuine refugees when they arrive without ID or papers?  Are they really in need to be worthy of Aussie tax payer's handouts?



Refugees and Asylum Seekers are two different groups. If we are talking about support given to each respective groups, refugees are supported, asylum seekers are locked up. Different scenarios.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> Our debt is miniscule comparitively speaking, on a total and a per capita basis.
> 
> We spend only a tiny proportion of our GDP on refugees, and the money spent is done so in the most inefficient manner possible as successive governments needs to be seen as being harsh on refugees as both have indulged in turning what is a tiny problem for Australia into a major issue (blatant vote buying). ...




lol Mofra - sounds like the sort of spin coming from Swan or Gillard.  It doesn't go down well and these sort of statements are becoming more difficult to believe as the apparent spin and pollywaffle get worse.

How can continued and rising debt be brushed off so glibly?

Why is it that history generally shows labor spends like there is no tomorrow and then the libs eventually get us back on track?  The libs are not perfect, but their fiscal policies are a lot less risky for this country, IMO of course...

Oh, and on the subject of blatant vote buying - the PM is ducking scrutiny again on the very thing that got her into power courtesy of the independents.  *Gillard snubs Senate order on NBN*



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard is defying a Senate order for the government to immediately release the business case for the $43 billion national broadband network (NBN).
> 
> The coalition, Greens and independent senator Nick Xenophon voted together in the upper house on Wednesday demanding the 400-page document


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> lol Mofra - sounds like the sort of spin coming from Swan or Gillard.  It doesn't go down well and these sort of statements are becoming more difficult to believe as the apparent spin and pollywaffle get worse.



I think both parties are as bad as each other in the spin stakes.



sails said:


> How can continued and rising debt be brushed off so glibly?
> 
> Why is it that history generally shows labor spends like there is no tomorrow and then the libs eventually get us back on track?  The libs are not perfect, but their fiscal policies are a lot less risky for this country, IMO of course...



I'll respectfully disagree - simply selling state assets is not a long term strategy of fiscal responsibility unless the funds are put to productive use. Howard's era was a missed opportunity in terms of infrastructure spending in the areas that would provide the most productive economic use (there was the Adelaide/Darwin trainline but I would preferred Pilbarra/FNQ infrastructure personally).



sails said:


> Oh, and on the subject of blatant vote buying - the PM is ducking scrutiny again on the very thing that got her into power courtesy of the independents.  *Gillard snubs Senate order on NBN*



I think the NBN plan should be scrutinised, no argument from me.


----------



## Mofra

Julia said:


> I'm not suggesting...



Hi Julia,

Thank you for your long, thought-out and detailed response. I won't quote the whole post save the thread becomes unreadable, so I'll just adress a couple of points so we can get an idea of where we stand.

Firstly, I commend your concern for the homeless (and, I suspect, your empathy for the working poor in this country). I'm certainly not going to argue against helping the needy, and I don't beleive that funds used to help the less fortunate in society are a waste of funds or a pure expense in budgetary terms (taking a longer term view) because some people who are helped will become taxpayers contributing to the nation pool of funds. 

Where I believe we differ is in the comparison of refugees/asylum seekers and the homeless. I don't think it is fair nor accurate to simply state there is a limited pool of funds available to both, and the issue is merely one of determining fractions of funds to each group. Each have seperate issues - as you have rightly pointed out, mental health is a large issue in homelessness. Rudd made an attempt at addressing this on a national level, but failed. People I know in the field are adament that it is not a funding issue but an allocation of resources/management issue, which indicates an overhaul of the beaurocracy would of far more good than just increasing funding, but I digress.

The asylum seeker & refugee issue has a different set of pressures. One is meeting our international obligations under various UN charters, as is meeting our obligations as a responsible regional partner. Whether we meet either of those currently is moot, as we do have a responsibility to do so and we should consider this issue in this context. Other issues that impact are our low proportion of refugee intake by world's standards (although this is as much an issue of geography as it is any other factor), our offshore processing of those who apply from neighbouring countries vs those who arrive by boat and apply from Australian soil, those who have family here, etc.

As for the issue of levels of care provided to people - as a nation we are required to provide a basic level of care to people who are incarcerated, be it asylum seekers or prisoners. It does create a perception of different people gaining some priority over others, but I don't think a simple link is accurate. The cost of detaining people can be lowered and unfortunately our governments have taken the view that the most expensive soplutions are the most politically palatable (eg. my cousin has spent two concurrent contracts on Christmas Island as a guard, getting paid more than he would in the mining sector), but again that does not change our international or domestic obligations.


----------



## Julia

Mofra, thank you also for reasoned and sensible response.

I think I said a few posts ago that I have no answers.  Of course I have sympathy for people who are genuinely fleeing from persecution of whatever source.  But I think this government in particular is managing the situation extremely badly.

At the same time, I'm unimpressed by Mr Abbott's mantra of "we'll stop the boats", though agree with him that it's nonsensical to be spending more money on some yet to be agreed regional processing centre when Nauru is sitting there unused, rendered unacceptable to the current government on a purely political basis.

Probably we've both said all we can reasonable express for now, and I thank you for being prepared to engage in a genuine discussion without needing to be aggressive or abusive.


----------



## todster

sails said:


> lol Mofra - sounds like the sort of spin coming from Swan or Gillard.  It doesn't go down well and these sort of statements are becoming more difficult to believe as the apparent spin and pollywaffle get worse.
> 
> How can continued and rising debt be brushed off so glibly?
> 
> Why is it that history generally shows labor spends like there is no tomorrow and then the libs eventually get us back on track?  The libs are not perfect, but their fiscal policies are a lot less risky for this country, IMO of course...
> 
> Oh, and on the subject of blatant vote buying - the PM is ducking scrutiny again on the very thing that got her into power courtesy of the independents.  *Gillard snubs Senate order on NBN*




It's amazing how political parties discover the importance of transparency in opposition.


----------



## Mofra

Julia said:


> Probably we've both said all we can reasonable express for now, and I thank you for being prepared to engage in a genuine discussion without needing to be aggressive or abusive.



Ditto - rational discussion with someone willing to respecfully listen also helps to confirm and question one's own position on a subject and offers a different perspective.


----------



## IFocus

Nice summery by Barrie Cassidy

"The political year is winding down in Canberra, and as usual, it's full of contradictions".



> The standout has to be the demise of Kevin Rudd as interpreted by the Opposition. John Howard, Joe Hockey, Julie Bishop and even Tony Abbott himself have given the Opposition Leader full credit for bringing down the former prime minister. It was essentially all Abbott's own work, a prize scalp that elevated him to hero status.
> 
> Yet Abbott told Federal Parliament on Wednesday that he (Rudd) "was perhaps the most unjustly treated senior politician in recent Australian history". Then warming to the theme, "the most unfairly treated man in Australian political history".
> 
> Why then, did he tear him down?






> But that is to exaggerate their status. The Coalition went close to winning the 2010 election because of circumstances. Their opponents imploded mid-campaign. Since then, they have very effectively prosecuted the case against a Government yet to find its feet - again because of circumstances. The Government is in unfamiliar territory, trying to manage a hung parliament. It has a brute of an agenda largely fashioned and locked in before the Parliament became unstable. That is at the core of the Opposition's supposed successes.






http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/26/3076924.htm?site=thedrum


----------



## sails

And while the government winds down, the illegal boats keep rolling in.  
More than another 100 asylum seekers and Labor doesn't seem to care that their policies are simply not working:

*Three more asylum seeker boats arrive *



> ...Mr Morrison blamed failed Labor policies.
> 
> "Riots, brawling, gruesome protests and self-harm have all returned to our detention network, after three years of Labor's failed policies," he said.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> And while the government winds down, the illegal boats keep rolling in.
> More than another 100 asylum seekers and Labor doesn't seem to care that their policies are simply not working:
> 
> *Three more asylum seeker boats arrive *



\

Why has the media gone sooooo quiet and soft on this lack lustre Gillard Government?
They have absolutely no solution to the problem they are hoping will go away.
These major problems should have received priority in Parliament instead of deabting GAY MARRIAGE. What a easte of time.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> \
> 
> Why has the media gone sooooo quiet and soft on this lack lustre Gillard Government?
> They have absolutely no solution to the problem they are hoping will go away.
> These major problems should have received priority in Parliament instead of deabting GAY MARRIAGE. What a easte of time.




The media are incredibly quiet about the boat arrivals and is the reason I post the info here.  When boat arrivals reached a peak during the Howard years, it was constantly headline news.  

Boat arrivals have now exceeded the peak when Howard was PM and yet the media are so quiet on it.  Gillard seems to have no solution to the problem and won't (for stubborn political reasons) use the obvious one that worked for Howard.  I think Aussies have a right to know what is going on and agree that the media are way too soft on the current PM.


----------



## sails

> In an extraordinarily brave testimony to House of Representatives’ Economics Committee last Friday, Australia’s most respected and independent economist, the Governor of the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA), Glenn Stevens, has cast enormous doubt over the Gillard Government’s economic credentials. He also showed why he is rapidly emerging as one of the world’s top central bankers.




Full article: Under pressure: RBA casts doubt over federal finance

An interesting excerpt on interest rates:


> MR STEVENS: [Interest rates] would have been lower had the stimulus measures not occurred. We would have had to lower the cash rate further. I think that has to be true... I think your analysis is correct. The interesting question is whether a world of no fiscal easing and more monetary easing would actually have been the ideal mix. It is an interesting question.




And Mr Stevens also validates comments from Joe Hockey:


> The final subject of interest was banking. Here Governor Stevens validated much of what Joe Hockey has argued in recent times on the policy challenges associated with ‘implicit guarantees’, ‘moral hazard’ and ‘too big to fail’




The whole article is an interesting read from someone who has the credentials to know the true fiscal state of this country.


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Full article: Under pressure: RBA casts doubt over federal finance
> 
> An interesting excerpt on interest rates:
> 
> 
> And Mr Stevens also validates comments from Joe Hockey:
> 
> 
> The whole article is an interesting read from someone who has the credentials to know the true fiscal state of this country.




Thought this was interesting thankfully the Coalition have some MP's who can think pass 3 worded slogans 



> Under the pressure of exceptionally targeted questioning from the next generation of Liberal Party leaders, Kelly O’Dwyer and Steve Ciobo, Governor Stevens revealed that:


----------



## Julia

Every now and again, I have a vague sort of daydream that if we could put together the genuine talent on both sides of the house, we might actually come up with a team of people who cared more for the future of this country and its inhabitants than their own short term political futures.

Sigh.


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Thought this was interesting thankfully the Coalition have some MP's who can think pass 3 worded slogans




Galahs and Cockatoos always repeat what they are brainwashed with like Cocky wants a cracker and Gillards muppets do the same thing. 
One gets tired of hearing the repetitive slogan "Abbott is a Wrecker" all because he knows full well that most of the Labor Governments hairbrained schemes finish up on the rocks. 
If Abbott was to agree with everything bit of legislation Gillard puts forward and it fails like it normally does, then Gillard would turn around and say well, Abbott agreed to it, don't blame me.


----------



## sails

Seems like the angry PM took her frustrations of the Vic losses out on her Mr Rabbit calling him all sorts of wild things.  IMO, it raises questions if she is really up to the job.  Getting so angry isn't going to put labor back into power in Victoria so it is rather pointless.



> With Labor conceding defeat in Victoria, the Prime Minister was in bruising form, criticising the Opposition Leader Tony Abbott for being everything from "weak" to "negative", from "bitter" to a "wrecker".




 and



> Ms Gillard said Mr Abbott was a "weak man", a "weathervane" and "empty of conviction and ideas".








_An angry Julia Gillard waged an angry attack in Federal parliament yesterday as State  Labor suffered a crushing defeat in Victoria.
 Picture: Gary Ramage_

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...al-on-candidates/story-e6frfkw9-1225963043133


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Galahs and Cockatoos always repeat what they are brainwashed with like Cocky wants a cracker and Gillards muppets do the same thing.
> One gets tired of hearing the repetitive slogan "Abbott is a Wrecker" all because he knows full well that most of the Labor Governments hairbrained schemes finish up on the rocks.
> If Abbott was to agree with everything bit of legislation Gillard puts forward and it fails like it normally does, then Gillard would turn around and say well, Abbott agreed to it, don't blame me.




Coming from the one who repeats everything Andrew Bolt says.
What does that make you?


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Coming from the one who repeats everything Andrew Bolt says.
> What does that make you?




todster, I don't see the relevance in your statement. I don't repeat brainwashed sayings. I refer to true statements of facts made by Andrew Bolt.
You are way off course in trying to make a comparison.

Sorry if I hit a nerve relating to your beloved Prime Minister.


----------



## IFocus

Victorian election will be sending an interesting message to the federal Coalition.

People who voted for Ted Baillieu didn't vote for Abbott, Ted is a small L Liberal not a right wing wrecker like Abbott.

Malcolm will be starting to twitch.......


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Victorian election will be sending an interesting message to the federal Coalition.
> 
> People who voted for Ted Baillieu didn't vote for Abbott, Ted is a small L Liberal not a right wing wrecker like Abbott.
> 
> Malcolm will be starting to twitch.......




There you go again IFocus, parroting Gillard's slogan "Abbott the wrecker'. Can't you think for yourself for once? 
You should really change your icon from that GALAH to something less conspicuous!!!!!!


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> Victorian election will be sending an interesting message to the federal Coalition.
> 
> People who voted for Ted Baillieu didn't vote for Abbott, Ted is a small L Liberal not a right wing wrecker like Abbott.



That's a very definitive statement.  What can you offer to back it up?

If you have statistics which measure voter behaviour regarding both Baillieu and Abbott, then let's see them.  Otherwise, aren't you making an unsubstantiated allegation?

And quite apart from that, I'd say more important is the disillusion by voters of the Labor Brand, along with a growing awareness of the dangerous nature of the Greens, so that - as is almost always the case - voters will vote out what they don't like, rather than voting in what they believe will be better.

Perhaps you could consider placing less emphasis on repeating the slogans of Ms Gillard about Mr Abbott being a 'wrecker' and more on understanding what seems to actually be going on in the minds of voters.

It is the job of the Opposition to oppose, for god's sake.  Do you really expect Abbott and Co to smile sweetly and endorse every hair brained decision the current government is making?  To do so would be to badly let down their own voter base, and also to defy common sense, given the nonsense purported by the current government.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Victorian election will be sending an interesting message to the federal Coalition.
> 
> People who voted for Ted Baillieu didn't vote for Abbott, Ted is a small L Liberal not a right wing wrecker like Abbott.
> 
> Malcolm will be starting to twitch.......




IFocus, I must admit I do prefer your more reasoned posts rather than mimicking Ms Gillard's rather tiring lines as you have done here...

There is one big difference between the federal election and the recent one in Victoria.  The greens were preferenced last by the libs in the recent state election and the libs preferenced them above labor federally.  I would imagine that won't happen again.

Oh, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  You are suggesting (once again) that Turnbull take over... how about someone else has a go at being the new labor leader too.  Swan?  Shorten?  Howes? Are they getting twitchy too?  Ms Gillard does seem quite out of her depth at times.  



Julia said:


> ....It is the job of the Opposition to oppose, for god's sake.  Do you really expect Abbott and Co to smile sweetly and endorse every hair brained decision the current government is making?  To do so would be to badly let down their own voter base, and also to defy common sense, given the nonsense purported by the current government.




Well said, Julia...


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> People who voted for Ted Baillieu didn't vote for Abbott, Ted is a small L Liberal not a *right wing wrecker* like Abbott.



(My bolds).

You are adopting Gillard's Stalinist language.



> Although many projects were successfully completed and moved the Soviet empire into modern times, goals often exceeded the available resources. Those who dared point this out were called "wreckers", accused of treason, and punished. By accusing "wreckers" of thwarting the plans of the State, Stalin was able to divert attention from the real reasons for the failure of his schemes. (credit: National Archives, USA)


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> There is one big difference between the federal election and the recent one in Victoria.  The greens were preferenced last by the libs in the recent state election and the libs preferenced them above labor federally.  I would imagine that won't happen again.



There are more differences IMO - Vic Liberals have a leader who isn't the furthest to the right of Australia's major right wing party for a start.
Ballieu appears to be more of a moderate which means people dissappointed by Labor's performance can vision him as an alternative leader. 

Ballieu also has policies that consist of more than merely "oppose Labor" - he outlined policies that differed to the Brumby "everything is fine" mantra and won. There was some rejection of the overtly negative campaigning of both Vic Labor and the Federal Coalition which also seemed to resonate with voters.


----------



## Mofra

Julia said:


> It is the job of the Opposition to oppose, for god's sake.  Do you really expect Abbott and Co to smile sweetly and endorse every hair brained decision the current government is making?  To do so would be to badly let down their own voter base, and also to defy common sense, given the nonsense purported by the current government.



Depends on your position - I should think the job of the opposition is to scrutinise government policy and offer an alternative vision - Abbott merely votes against everything Labor puts up. As a voting public, we deserve better.


----------



## Logique

I heard the PM say on the radio that she doesn't see the need for the discussion, since Australia has plenty of renewable forms of energy.

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top...MPs_call_for_nuclear_power_debate_546141.html
*Labor MPs call for nuclear power debate*
Wednesday, December 01, 2010

Federal Labor MPs have called for Australia to embrace nuclear power, leaving Prime Minister Julia Gillard facing another damaging split in her government.

The Prime Minister is under pressure to put the divisive issue on next year's ALP national conference agenda, News Limited reported on Wednesday.

Federal Resources Minister Martin Ferguson said those advocating nuclear power had as much right to have the issue debated as those backing changes to gay marriage laws.

'They have *as much right to discuss nuclear at the 2011 conference as other people have to debate the issue of gay and lesbian marriage*,' he was quoted as saying.

A number of Labor MPs have gone public in their support for the low-carbon energy source, including former frontbencher Mark Bishop and NSW senator Steve Hutchins.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> Federal Resources Minister Martin Ferguson said those advocating nuclear power had as much right to have the issue debated as those backing changes to gay marriage laws.
> 
> 'They have *as much right to discuss nuclear at the 2011 conference as other people have to debate the issue of gay and lesbian marriage*,' he was quoted as saying.




Martin Ferguson is my kind of guy. He has got his priorities right. Why debate trivia, when the most efficient method of generating clean energy is ignored.

I know it will never be adopted in Australia because of our NIMBY attitude, but at the least Labor should get their heads out of the sand, if they are fair dinkum on wanting affordable clean energy.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> Martin Ferguson is my kind of guy. He has got his priorities right. Why debate trivia, when the most efficient method of generating clean energy is ignored.
> 
> I know it will never be adopted in Australia because of our NIMBY attitude, but at the least Labor should get their heads out of the sand, if they are fair dinkum on wanting affordable clean energy.




If nuclear energy is your idea of clean I would hate to see inside your house.


----------



## Calliope

todster said:


> If nuclear energy is your idea of clean I would hate to see inside your house.




I'd hate to see the inside of your mind. It would make my house look immaculate.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> I'd hate to see the inside of your mind. It would make my house look immaculate.




 Just a big open space with a couple of arm chairs for relaxin.
The cleaner (beer) comes in a couple of times a week so its not to messy>


----------



## JTLP

Calliope said:


> I'd hate to see the inside of your mind. It would make my house look immaculate.




LOL. 

Todster's probably got a '2012 Labor Pollies Birthday Suit' calendar in his head. Disgusting stuff indeed.


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> That's a very definitive statement.  What can you offer to back it up?
> 
> If you have statistics which measure voter behaviour regarding both Baillieu and Abbott, then let's see them.  Otherwise, aren't you making an unsubstantiated allegation?




The numbers are quite straight forward Liberals actual lost seats in Victoria to Labor in the Fed election. In other words they didn't see Abbott as a viable leader.
The Coalition won most new seats in WA, NSW and QLD where state Labor was on extremely the nose. Numbers here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_federal_election,_2010

Ted Bailleu is a moderate and seen as an alternate unlike Abbott remember Labor ran the worst Fed election campaign ever. In the end the majority of independents didn't trust Abbott for good reason he simply has a reputation as an attack dog i.e. wrecker that has been his behavior before and  since becoming opposition leader.

He has worn that label with pride. 



> Perhaps you could consider placing less emphasis on repeating the slogans of Ms Gillard about Mr Abbott being a 'wrecker' and more on understanding what seems to actually be going on in the minds of voters.




Hmmmmm watch question time, a lot more more slogans coming from the other side I would think wrecker is appropriate for Abbott that was the instruction he gave Malcolm wasn't it for the NBN. Luckily Malcolm has taken a more mature approach to the matter.



> It is the job of the Opposition to oppose, for god's sake.  Do you really expect Abbott and Co to smile sweetly and endorse every hair brained decision the current government is making?  To do so would be to badly let down their own voter base, and also to defy common sense, given the nonsense purported by the current government.




Hold the government to account I believe is the term Abbott has just pretty much opposed every thing same as the Republicans in the US which got the Coalition back into the game which everyone now seems to forget.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Martin Ferguson is my kind of guy. He has got his priorities right. Why debate trivia, when the most efficient method of generating clean energy is ignored.
> 
> I know it will never be adopted in Australia because of our NIMBY attitude, but at the least Labor should get their heads out of the sand, if they are fair dinkum on wanting affordable clean energy.



Agree on both counts.   It has taken me a while to 'get' Martin Ferguson.
Probably initially unfairly dismissed him as , um, not quite up to the job, rough around the edges etc.

But he has indeed proven himself to be sensible, realistic, and skilled as a negotiator.   

Greg Combet as Climate Change Minister is demonstrating some similar skills.  I don't see him being easily manipulated by the Greens, despite Christine Milne's fanciful and hysterical attempts.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> There are more differences IMO - Vic Liberals have a leader who isn't the furthest to the right of Australia's major right wing party for a start.
> Ballieu appears to be more of a moderate which means people dissappointed by Labor's performance can vision him as an alternative leader.
> 
> Ballieu also has policies that consist of more than merely "oppose Labor" - he outlined policies that differed to the Brumby "everything is fine" mantra and won. There was some rejection of the overtly negative campaigning of both Vic Labor and the Federal Coalition which also seemed to resonate with voters.




Mofra, thanks again for the reasoned explanation of your views...
You may well have a point there with the differences between the two leaders.  They are two very different people.

That said, Abbott did achieve a similar electoral result in bringing the coalition from well behind to a tied finish.  It was only the two federal independents that tipped it into labor's favour which wasn't necessarily the wishes of the majority in their electorates.  

And, if I remember correctly, the fed coalition were actually ahead by about 700,000 first preference votes.  I know that didn't translate into the all important number of seats, but it did show that more than 50% of Aussie voters chose the coalition (didn't want labor back in) and are unhappy that the indepentents ignored what the majority wanted.

While first preferences don't win elections, they are a good indication of what voters would like.  IMO, preferences seem to distort the wishes of the people, often leap frogging a candidate with lesser first preference votes into a winner.

So, from a purely electoral viewpoint, both recent federal and Vic state elections were consistent in showing significant swings away from labor and both coalitions performed strongly to come from so far behind irrespective of their leaders.  




Mofra said:


> Depends on your position - I should think the job of the opposition is to scrutinise government policy and offer an alternative vision - Abbott merely votes against everything Labor puts up. As a voting public, we deserve better.




Has labor actually put anything up so far that isn't controversial?

The more than 50% of Aussies that didn't vote for labor are likely to be quite happy that Abbott is not becomming a Gillard puppet.  From what I can see, Ms Gillard is putting up controversial issues such as NBN, carbon tax, etc.  It would be a worry if Abbott were not opposing these issues to keep the government accountable and doing his best to represent those that voted for him.

And if Ms Gillard was the leader of the opposition, I doubt very much that she would be any different - and rightly so, IMO.


----------



## nioka

sails said:


> Abbott did achieve a similar electoral result in bringing the coalition from well behind to a tied finish.  It was only the two federal independents that tipped it into labor's favour which wasn't necessarily the wishes of the majority in their electorates.
> So, from a purely electoral viewpoint, both recent federal and Vic state elections were consistent in showing significant swings away from labor and both coalitions performed strongly to come from so far behind irrespective of their leaders.  .




Abbott may have received a similar result but he did not WIN. That's the difference.
The Vic result backs my opinion that Turnbull would have put the Libs in power. The Lib voters that voted for Abbott would still have voted LIB with Turnbull the leader and some of the voters that voted Green as a protest would have voted for the moderate, Turnbull. That is how it worked in Victoria. Therefore the case for Turnbull as leader is strengthened.


----------



## sails

nioka said:


> Abbott may have received a similar result but he did not WIN. That's the difference.
> The Vic result backs my opinion that Turnbull would have put the Libs in power. The Lib voters that voted for Abbott would still have voted LIB with Turnbull the leader and some of the voters that voted Green as a protest would have voted for the moderate, Turnbull. That is how it worked in Victoria. Therefore the case for Turnbull as leader is strengthened.




I would have thought that is a bit harsh when Baillieu only won by one marginal seat (and only ahead by about 460 votes at the time of Brumby's concession).  

Federally (with preferences), Coalition achieved 73 seats in their own right and labor 72 in their own right. 

Fed Coalition were also ahead by about 700,000 votes on first preferences so I can't see that, because Baillieu scraped in, is an indictment against Abbot's leadership.  

I guess you would prefer Turnbull, Nioka, as you seem to be keen on the carbon tax idea.  Turnbull has more statesmanlike qualities than either of the two current leaders, but he did a lot of damage to his conservative voters when he was alll too willing to side with labor on the contraversial issue of carbon tax.


----------



## nioka

sails said:


> I guess you would prefer Turnbull, Nioka, as you seem to be keen on the carbon tax idea.  Turnbull has more statesmanlike qualities than either of the two current leaders, but he did a lot of damage to his conservative voters when he was alll too willing to side with labor on the contraversial issue of carbon tax.




Yes I make no secret of the fact that I much prefer Turnbull to Abbott. It is all about appealing to more than just the conservative vote. 

The  "conservative" voters will not vote labour anyway and not "green" either. To get rid of Labour you have to get the middle ground on side. That is what Hawke and Keating did. Turnbull could do that. Abbott will not.

Carbon tax ?. I say there is a need for there to be a cost placed on carbon emissions. I'm not sure how it can be done. Someone has to bear the cost. Maybe a levy on coal. That way it can be put on to the shoulders of the buyers of coal that is used overseas as well as the local use.

The "NO TAX" lobby has to come up with an alternative rather than just saying "no tax".


----------



## noco

nioka said:


> Yes I make no secret of the fact that I much prefer Turnbull to Abbott. It is all about appealing to more than just the conservative vote.
> 
> The  "conservative" voters will not vote labour anyway and not "green" either. To get rid of Labour you have to get the middle ground on side. That is what Hawke and Keating did. Turnbull could do that. Abbott will not.
> 
> Carbon tax ?. I say there is a need for there to be a cost placed on carbon emissions. I'm not sure how it can be done. Someone has to bear the cost. Maybe a levy on coal. That way it can be put on to the shoulders of the buyers of coal that is used overseas as well as the local use.
> 
> The "NO TAX" lobby has to come up with an alternative rather than just saying "no tax".




nioka, why do we need a carbon tax when it is a known fact it will do nothing to alter climate change. Is it not just a money grab by the Labor Government.
Please read the link by Professor Bob Carter.

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ey_and_deal_with_the_climate_we_actually_get/


----------



## nioka

noco said:


> nioka, why do we need a carbon tax when it is a known fact it will do nothing to alter climate change. Is it not just a money grab by the Labor Government.
> Please read the link by Professor Bob Carter.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ey_and_deal_with_the_climate_we_actually_get/




Simple really.

 Forget the climate change debate. We need to alter the rate of;

POLLUTING OUR PLANET.

Why can't you see the obvious. 

And the arguments that suggest there IS suggesting climate change are better than the ones that can't see the facts because of the smog.

I've already paid a high price for pollution with my lung damage. Plenty are in the same boat and there are plenty of younger ones that are yet to end up the same way over the next few years. 

That is the REAL cost of carbon in the atmosphere along with many other pollutants. So pay a little tax now or live to regret it later in life.

Put this aside. The facts are that Turnbull has a better chance of getting the middle ground voters.


----------



## joea

nioka said:


> Simple really.
> 
> Forget the climate change debate. We need to alter the rate of;
> 
> POLLUTING OUR PLANET.
> 
> 
> Put this aside. The facts are that Turnbull has a better chance of getting the middle ground voters.




Nioka.
Many people agree with you. But should we pay a parket ticket for being on earth?
Or should we invest the money in doing something that solves the problem.
You may be interested in going to site www.amazingcarbon.com and reading an article" Soil Carbon - can it save agriculture bacon".
Cheers


----------



## drsmith

nioka said:


> I've already paid a high price for pollution with my lung damage. Plenty are in the same boat and there are plenty of younger ones that are yet to end up the same way over the next few years.
> 
> That is the REAL cost of carbon in the atmosphere along with many other pollutants.



What does this have to do with CO2 in the atmosphere ?


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Mofra, thanks again for the reasoned explanation of your views...
> You may well have a point there with the differences between the two leaders.  They are two very different people.
> 
> That said, Abbott did achieve a similar electoral result in bringing the coalition from well behind to a tied finish.  It was only the two federal independents that tipped it into labor's favour which wasn't necessarily the wishes of the majority in their electorates.
> 
> And, if I remember correctly, the fed coalition were actually ahead by about 700,000 first preference votes.  I know that didn't translate into the all important number of seats, but it did show that more than 50% of Aussie voters chose the coalition (didn't want labor back in) and are unhappy that the indepentents ignored what the majority wanted.
> 
> While first preferences don't win elections, they are a good indication of what voters would like.  IMO, preferences seem to distort the wishes of the people, often leap frogging a candidate with lesser first preference votes into a winner.
> 
> Has labor actually put anything up so far that isn't controversial?
> 
> The more than 50% of Aussies that didn't vote for labor are likely to be quite happy that Abbott is not becomming a Gillard puppet.  From what I can see, Ms Gillard is putting up controversial issues such as NBN, carbon tax, etc.  It would be a worry if Abbott were not opposing these issues to keep the government accountable and doing his best to represent those that voted for him.
> 
> .




Sails do you mean two party preferred vote?



> Actually Labor ended up winning the the two party preferred vote minuscule as it was
> Peter Brent writing from his blog picked up by the Australian covered this
> 
> "Labor wins the two party preferred vote 50.1 to 49.9"
> 
> http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com....te_501_to_499/


----------



## wayneL

drsmith said:


> What does this have to do with CO2 in the atmosphere ?




Absolutely nothing.

Once again he is unable to distinguish the difference between pollution and purported co2 AGW.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Sails do you mean two party preferred vote?




No - I meant coalition was ahead on first preference votes vs. labor - that is those that put "1" for their coalition member despite Abbott being leader...lol.  Agree that labor was marginally ahead on 2PP.

It happens on both sides of politics where the majority of Aussies have voted "1" for the party of their choice, but because of 2PP their wishes are not necessarily carried out.

First preferences by party for 2010 election can be found here: http://results.aec.gov.au/15508/Website/HouseDownloadsMenu-15508-csv.htm

Total Votes:
Liberal: 3,777,383
LNP:  1,130,525
Nationals: 462,387
= total of 5,370,295

Labor: 4,711,363

Difference = 658,932

However, the fact is 2PP determines the seats won.  I was only trying to make the point that Abbott certainly didn't suffer the wipe out that some are insinuating and it seems a bit harsh to call for his demise.  Just a differing viewpoint...

I heard today that Mark Latham reckons Chris Bowen will be the new labor leader by 2012.  What do you think?


----------



## nioka

drsmith said:


> What does this have to do with CO2 in the atmosphere ?




They go together like a horse and carriage. Find an excess of one and you find an excess of the other. Or where there is smoke there is fire.


----------



## wayneL

nioka said:


> They go together like a horse and carriage. Find an excess of one and you find an excess of the other. Or where there is smoke there is fire.




Not necessarily. And tax will not reduce co2 emissions, just transfer them to the third world where there will be even more accompanying pollution.


----------



## noco

Julia Gillard is nearing the end of her tether. The back room boys are on the move to undermind her. Happy days are on the way according to the Herald Sun.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...heraldsun/comments/is_julia_gillard_finished/


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I heard today that Mark Latham reckons Chris Bowen will be the new labor leader by 2012.  What do you think?



Far be it from me to endorse anything Mr Latham says, but I'd have to hope he's right.  Chris Bowen has shown himself to be competent, across his portfolios, capable of listening to questions and responding in a reasonably genuine way.

He would be a great relief and huge improvement on either or both Gillard and Swan, both of whom seem to exponentially descending into an abyss of incompetence.

And then we have Peter Garrett, who quite pathetically was trying to sound authoritative on "PM" tonight, defending yet another stuff up on his part, i.e. the 'My School' website which is apparently full of errors.  

This bloke is one of Labor's most disastrous experiments.  There is nothing he has got right, and his utter awkwardness when trying to defend himself is a sad combination of pathetic and ludicrous.


----------



## Julia

'Lateline' tonight will feature an interview with Paul Keating.
He's always someone worth watching.  The political scene is, imo, the worse for his departure.


----------



## wayneL

Julia said:


> He would be a great relief and huge improvement on either or both Gillard and Swan, both of whom seem to exponentially descending into an abyss of incompetence.




Julia, I think they were always at the extreme lower end of competence. It is just circumstances that are exponentially revealing this.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Far be it from me to endorse anything Mr Latham says, but I'd have to hope he's right.  Chris Bowen has shown himself to be competent, across his portfolios, capable of listening to questions and responding in a reasonably genuine way.
> 
> He would be a great relief and huge improvement on either or both Gillard and Swan, both of whom seem to exponentially descending into an abyss of incompetence.
> 
> And then we have Peter Garrett, who quite pathetically was trying to sound authoritative on "PM" tonight, defending yet another stuff up on his part, i.e. the 'My School' website which is apparently full of errors.
> 
> This bloke is one of Labor's most disastrous experiments.  There is nothing he has got right, and his utter awkwardness when trying to defend himself is a sad combination of pathetic and ludicrous.




Well Julia, the Labor power brokers are working hard behind the scenes and Oakshott is not going to wera it. Interesting times ahead!!!!!!

I'm afraid I find it hard to gain confidence in Chris Bowen. He, like Gillard, is full of spin and will cover his back side on all occassions. He knows he has a major problem with illegal immigrants and appears to be doing very little to combat that problem. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...reaker-oakeshott/story-fn59niix-1225964777896


----------



## trainspotter

Why did the Gillard Government spend *45 million dollars* of tax payers money trying to secure the 2022 World Cup for soccer?? Who agreed to this? 

In response to Julia: I liked the way Paul Keating slammed Labors Green Alliance on Lateline. It would appear that Michael Costa agrees. Great stuff here

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...it-michael-costa/story-fn59niix-1225963579493


----------



## Logique

From the transcript of Lateline on 2 Dec 2010
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s3083382.htm

PAUL KEATING: Well, I think - you know, if the big parties do the big changes - *the Labor Party should never concede space to the Greens*. Minor parties always, through the proportional system, climb into the Senate and get into a bargaining position. 

But, if you look at the big economic change and the big environmental changes in this country, they were delivered fundamentally by the Labor Party. Now, the Labor Party's got to be seen to be doing those things and getting back to those things. 

I mean, you know, *the climate change fiasco gave the Greens a real opportunity*. Before that, they were pushed out. You know, people like Al Gore, a former US president, occupying the space. It wasn't green groups; it was mainstream people. 

So I think as we move back to the mainstream, and we will, then the relative position of the Greens will change. *But I wouldn't be giving them any space unnecessarily*. *The two party system matters to this country and fracturing it won't be a good thing*.


----------



## Logique

trainspotter said:


> Why did the Gillard Government spend *45 million dollars* of tax payers money trying to secure the 2022 World Cup for soccer?? Who agreed to this?



Australia got one vote. And England got 2 votes for 2018. 

40 degrees in Qatar, except inside the air-con stadiums. Real incentive for the best players in the world to delay their holidays, delay medical procedures, put up with niggling injuries etc.


----------



## Julia

trainspotter said:


> Why did the Gillard Government spend *45 million dollars* of tax payers money trying to secure the 2022 World Cup for soccer?? Who agreed to this?
> 
> In response to Julia: I liked the way Paul Keating slammed Labors Green Alliance on Lateline. It would appear that Michael Costa agrees. Great stuff here
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...it-michael-costa/story-fn59niix-1225963579493




Hello TS, I, too, was blown away when I heard about that massive cost for the bid for the damn World Cup!  What a waste.  The animated film featuring Julia Gillard and apparently a kangaroo making off with the Cup has been widely slammed as pathetically bad.

Yep, just a great article by Michael Costa.   I don't think the government thought through the repercussions of forming an alliance with the Greens, and are only just now beginning to see how damaging this is.
Good to have Paul Keating's endorsement of this.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> From the transcript of Lateline on 2 Dec 2010
> http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s3083382.htm
> 
> PAUL KEATING: Well, I think - you know, if the big parties do the big changes - the Labor Party should never concede space to the Greens. Minor parties always, through the proportional system, climb into the Senate and get into a bargaining position.
> 
> *But, if you look at the big economic change and the big environmental changes in this country, they were delivered fundamentally by the Labor Party*. Now, the Labor Party's got to be seen to be doing those things and getting back to those things.
> 
> I mean, you know, the climate change fiasco gave the Greens a real opportunity. Before that, they were pushed out. You know, people like Al Gore, a former US president, occupying the space. It wasn't green groups; it was mainstream people.
> 
> So I think as we move back to the mainstream, and we will, then the relative position of the Greens will change. But I wouldn't be giving them any space unnecessarily. the two party system matters to this country and fracturing it won't be a good thing.




Paul made some other important points

Reading the transcript (thanks Logique missed the program) reminds me that there are no other present or past politicians who can talk to the dept Keating can.


----------



## trainspotter

1) 96 billion dollar debt that Keating and Labor left when John Howard took the reins was good how so? 
2) The "Recession we had to have" was good for whom exactly?
3) Keating's description of Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad as "recalcitrant" really helped us on the world stage in what way?
4) Keating wanted Australia to become a Republic was a great idea !!
5) Deregulating the banks without a "watchdog" to control subprime practices benefitted whom?

Yes ..... I agree we need more of him to get to the depths of political verbosity.


----------



## wayneL

Logique said:


> You know, people like Al Gore, a former US president...




Eh?


----------



## wayneL

trainspotter said:


> 2) The "Recession we had to have" was good for whom exactly?




In retrospect, Keating was actually 100% on the money with this. 

If sometime in 2001 - 2007 there was another "Recession we had to have" (on a global scale), there would have been no GFC.

Just a normal trough in the business cycle.


----------



## IFocus

> 1) 96 billion dollar debt that Keating and Labor left when John Howard took the reins was good how so?



Do you have a link to that number?
Only remember the$7.6 billion "black hole" budget deficit left to Howard of course Howard as treasurer left the Hawke government $9.6 billion budget deficit.



> 2) The "Recession we had to have" was good for whom exactly?



Actually the world was in recession



> 3) Keating's description of Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad as "recalcitrant" really helped us on the world stage in what way?



Nice way to say tosser which Mahathir was , Keating actually got Australia into Asia through several forums i.e. APEC and reached out to Indonesia an area Howard failed in.



> 4) Keating wanted Australia to become a Republic was a great idea !!



And so we should be 



> 5) Deregulating the banks without a "watchdog" to control subprime practices benefitted whom?




We had a subprime problem?

Fact is Tony Jones could not have had that conversation with any other present / past politician


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> And so we should be




Definitive statements require definitive logic/reasoning.

IOW - WHY should we be.


----------



## Julia

wayneL said:


> In retrospect, Keating was actually 100% on the money with this.
> 
> If sometime in 2001 - 2007 there was another "Recession we had to have" (on a global scale), there would have been no GFC.
> 
> Just a normal trough in the business cycle.



Agree 100%.   Governments now are too politically cowardly to let a recession sort through the rubbish.  Moral hazard now applies.
What incentive is there for businesses to behave morally and reasonably when they know they will be bailed out?

In Ireland they have just made the banks' debt public debt.  No wonder the taxpayers are ****** off.


----------



## todster

trainspotter said:


> Why did the Gillard Government spend *45 million dollars* of tax payers money trying to secure the 2022 World Cup for soccer?? Who agreed to this?
> 
> In response to Julia: I liked the way Paul Keating slammed Labors Green Alliance on Lateline. It would appear that Michael Costa agrees. Great stuff here
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...it-michael-costa/story-fn59niix-1225963579493




Would you have posted about the world cup if they secured it?
I think not.
Hindsight the most powerful tool in every mans shed.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Definitive statements require definitive logic/reasoning.
> 
> IOW - WHY should we be.




I think we both aware of the arguments for and against I am for a Republic.

However

I think the British Monarchy should remain as some type of ceremonial head of state with no powers to remind the do gooders that Australia for better or worse is today what it is because of a government and system of law put in place by a dominate white protestant population.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> I think we both aware of the arguments for and against I am for a Republic.
> 
> However
> 
> I think the British Monarchy should remain as some type of ceremonial head of state with no powers to remind the do gooders that Australia for better or worse is today what it is because of a government and system of law put in place by a dominate white protestant population.




My opinion:

At best, becoming a republic won't change anything of substance.

At worst a republic could result in a more totalitarian police state.

At the very worst we might suffer the indignity of having Howard or Hawke... or Whitlam ffs on our coins. :

The potential for unintended consequences is enormous. While I'm no fan of the monarchy, things work pretty well as they are really.


----------



## trainspotter

IFocus said:


> Do you have a link to that number?
> Only remember the$7.6 billion "black hole" budget deficit left to Howard of course Howard as treasurer left the Hawke government $9.6 billion budget deficit.




Sure thing Ifocus. Here are a few to chow down on. I will even throw in a few graphs for good measure.

http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/...rnments-can't-seem-to-restrain-their-spending

http://www.news.com.au/opinion/a-debt-burden-to-shame-keating/story-e6frfs99-1111118758645

http://www.kevinruddthedisaster.com/ (this one is well worth the read as Joolyah gets a spray of truth as well)


----------



## nioka

trainspotter said:


> Sure thing Ifocus. Here are a few to chow down on. I will even throw in a few graphs for good measure.




There are a few charts missing. The first is a chart showing the value of public assets such as Telstra, Com bank, roads, rail, electricity, water etc that were sold off to offset the debt. The second is the increase in the debt of the private sector which shows the debt being transferred from the public sector to the private sector. Another would chart the decline in the value of Australian ownership in assets within Australia as 'things" are sold off to fund the current account deficit.

A few of these to chew on as well. Not just Labor eating at this table.


----------



## trainspotter

Ummmmmm nope niokia ...... it was Hawke/Keating that started the privatisation of Australia old chap. The Keating government privatised Qantas and commenced the privatisation of the Commonwealth Bank. The Howard government privatised Telstra. Try some facts and chow down on them.

Ummmmmm ....... "roads, rail, electricity, water etc" ????  (some have been sold by the States but I digress) Most of the main Highways are still controlled and funded by the Federal government.

Prime Minister Keating's SOLD his share in a piggery to his partner, Achilles Constantinidis, who then on-sold it to Indonesian interests at the same time as Prime Minister Keating was negotiating a treaty with Indonesian dictator and embezzler, President Suharto. OOOOPSIES 

Try here first http://www.google.com.au

http://www.my-world-guide.com/upload/File/Reports/Australia/Privatization_Australia.pdf  Privatization in Australia: How Much and What Impacts? Very interesting reading here nioka. Such as:

A significant transformation occurred within the Labor Party, governing at Commonwealth level between 1983 and 1996. Though the party’s rank-and-file and its trade union supporters strenuously resisted, the party leadership became converted to economic-rationalist values and determined to mount a program of microeconomic reform (see e.g., Beckett, 1992; Quiggin, 1996). In the process the party lost many members; nonetheless, as the country moved into the 1990s, *Labor governments under Prime Ministers Hawke and Keating began to sell off public enterprises.*


----------



## nioka

trainspotter said:


> Ummmmmm nope niokia ...... it was Hawke/Keating that started the privatisation of Australia old chap. The Keating government privatised Qantas and commenced the privatisation of the Commonwealth Bank. The Howard government privatised Telstra. Try some facts and chow down on them.




Read my lips, sorry fingers. Did I just blame Libs. I hold all parties responsible for this. I go further and say that a "world order" probably pressured them into those sales to offset the current account deficit. NSW Labor is guilty right now with the ecectricity sale deal going on right now and the NSW Libs are happy to stand by and help it happen.

Qantas was not a problem as it was not a public utility. Well no more than selling almost all our manufacturing, most of our mining etc,etc. We will be left with a great big hole in the ground as all we have to show for being the lucky country.


----------



## Calliope

The Julia Gillard duck walk is catching on.


----------



## Macquack

Calliope said:


> The Julia Gillard duck walk is catching on.




Usual bit of garbage from the dope.


----------



## Calliope

Macquack said:


> Usual bit of garbage from the dope.




I think *Macquack* that you take your duck connections too seriously.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> I think *Macquack* that you take your duck connections too seriously.




Calliope, try and get one one on Tony Abbott in his budgies doing a pidgeon toed walk. It might induce Macquack to remove the lemon he is sucking.
Poor Maquack, he don't like puns on our beloved Prime Minister.


----------



## Macquack

Calliope said:


> I think *Macquack* that you take your duck connections too seriously.




I will pay that one, Calliope.


----------



## Calliope

If Assange confines his leaks to Rudd he will be safe from Julia.


----------



## trainspotter

TAXPAYERS may have paid $188 million too much for the Federal Government's Building the Education Revolution (BER) stimulus program in NSW, the state's auditor-general says. 

Although construction work under the scheme was rapid, building costs were too high and the wishes of school communities were often ignored, NSW Auditor-General Peter Achterstraat said.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...us/story-e6frfku0-1225967076354#ixzz17P69ohpL

Yeah great stuff here !! But but but we saved Australia from going into a recession I hear them bleat.


----------



## Julia

Did anyone see Kerry O'Brien's interview with Malcolm Turnbull this evening?
I thought it was interesting that he spoke with Ms Gillard last night, and then Mr Turnbull tonight as a representative of the Coalition.

Wouldn't you have thought it would have been Tony Abbott up there tonight?

Is Mr O'Brien making a parting shot suggestion?  i.e. that he sees Mr Turnbull as the obvious leader of the Libs?

It was an interesting interview just on the basis of the dynamics between the two of them - pretty equal match of intellects and senses of humour.  Had the sense they both thoroughly enjoyed themselves.  This is not something that occurs too often in these political interviews.

Mr Turnbull seems to be gradually learning how to bide his time, developing some political nous perhaps.  He certainly has the demeanour to fill the role of a leader.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Did anyone see Kerry O'Brien's interview with Malcolm Turnbull this evening?
> I thought it was interesting that he spoke with Ms Gillard last night, and then Mr Turnbull tonight as a representative of the Coalition.
> 
> Wouldn't you have thought it would have been Tony Abbott up there tonight?
> 
> Is Mr O'Brien making a parting shot suggestion?  i.e. that he sees Mr Turnbull as the obvious leader of the Libs?
> 
> It was an interesting interview just on the basis of the dynamics between the two of them - pretty equal match of intellects and senses of humour.  Had the sense they both thoroughly enjoyed themselves.  This is not something that occurs too often in these political interviews.
> 
> Mr Turnbull seems to be gradually learning how to bide his time, developing some political nous perhaps.  He certainly has the demeanour to fill the role of a leader.




I agree with you Julia, he would be a good leader but he has to cleanse his brain of an ETS., otherwise he will be back to where he started and that is disunity with the Nationals. At least Abbott was able to meld the two parties together, whereas Turbull had the Coalation in turmoil.

I thought Kerrie O'Brien really put Julia Gillard through the hoops the other night which was unusual for him to show such aggression to her.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Mr Turnbull seems to be gradually learning how to bide his time, developing some political nous perhaps.  He certainly has the demeanour to fill the role of a leader.




it was a good interview. On the other hand in the interview with Gillard the smiling assassin just played with O'Brien and ignored his questions. It was he who ended up flustered.

Turnbull is more credible than Abbott or Gillard on carbon reduction, the Murray-Darling fix and the NBN. It won't be long before Abbott is exposed as a hollow man.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> it was a good interview. On the other hand in the interview with Gillard the smiling assassin just played with O'Brien and ignored his questions. It was he who ended up flustered.



Agree.  But I do think she looked exhausted.  Hardly surprising.


----------



## joea

hi.
I read that a little smoke is rising in Canberra on the future or Rob Oakeshott's future in politics.
An article on 'Abbott's shot at the Lodge" in the Business speculator explains it. It appears Rob could be the weak link in current government, that is if he wants to continue in politics.

Early days yet, but is it a smolder? Or will the fire ignite?


----------



## trainspotter

Roy Morgan has conducted another poll to confirm their previous poll that had the Coalition ahead 55-45 2PP. The new poll is basically unchanged at 54.5-45.5 2PP with a larger sample size. The ALP primary vote is as low as 23 per cent in QLD and hovering in the low 30s in VIC and NSW. The Coalition wins every age group above 24 years.

The ALP’s polling company Essential Research has a new poll with the Coalition ahead 52-48. This poll has a larger sample size than Roy Morgan at 1900 people.

  LNP ALP   
Average 52.5 47.5   
Essential Research 52 48  13th Dec 
Roy Morgan 54.5 45.5  12th Dec 
Roy Morgan 55 45  10th Dec 
NewsPoll 50 50  6th Dec 
Essential Research 51 49  6th Dec 

Anyone heard the rumour that Penny Wong and Joolyah Gizzard are playing the magic carpet ride together and Tim Mathieson aint real happy about it?

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...may_be_a_barrel_of_tnt_under_that_parliament/

Just gotta love Andrew Bolt


----------



## Julia

trainspotter said:


> Anyone heard the rumour that Penny Wong and Joolyah Gizzard are playing the magic carpet ride together and Tim Mathieson aint real happy about it?
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...may_be_a_barrel_of_tnt_under_that_parliament/
> 
> Just gotta love Andrew Bolt



How does the link to Andrew Bolt's comment suggest the above people?
I just can't believe Ms Gillard would be foolish enough, even if she had suddenly decided to alter her sexual orientation, to engage in anything so stupid.
Not that it would be any of our business if she did.


----------



## drsmith

Warnie ?

Who in politics is married, high profile and attractive enough for him to go for ?


----------



## noco

I think the end is near for Julia Gillard with the Independants, who installed her in Government, are now starting to have second thoughts. If just one defects, we will go to another election. If two defect, Tony Abbott will become Prime Minister. 
Not so happy days ahead for our dear Joolya. The sooner she goes the better we will all be. But oh dear, what a frightful mess to clean up.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Warnie ?
> 
> Who in politics is married, high profile and attractive enough for him to go for ?



Or perhaps the question should rather be:  who on earth would be silly enough to become involved with the dreaded Warnie?
But then I've never been able to see what the attraction is with that individual who would have to be one of the most shallow, egocentric creatures ever.



noco said:


> I think the end is near for Julia Gillard with the Independants, who installed her in Government, are now starting to have second thoughts. If just one defects, we will go to another election. If two defect, Tony Abbott will become Prime Minister.
> Not so happy days ahead for our dear Joolya. The sooner she goes the better we will all be. But oh dear, what a frightful mess to clean up.



Why doesn't someone sit her down and explain how utterly annoying her patronising way of speaking is?   On the 7.30 Report this evening, she couched her responses to Heather Ewart in tones and enunciation one would use if speaking to a five year old, or perhaps a 100 year old sufferer from dementia.

I just can't believe she doesn't watch the replays of her interviews and realise how she will be losing votes because of this ghastly patronising tone.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I just can't believe she doesn't watch the replays of her interviews and realise how she will be losing votes because of this ghastly patronising tone.




Julia, I guess we all develope our own method of speech from a young age and it remains with us through the rest of our lives. It may come from our parents or something that nauturally takes place. We all have our little idoisycrasies and at times may not know that it can be annoying to some people. That's the way life is and I doubt whether anyone could change the way Joolya speaks.


----------



## Julia

Certainly voice coaches etc can change the way people speak.

And Ms Gillard does not always speak in that slow, monotonous, patronising way.  When she is not responding to a question, i.e. being interviewed, and we actually hear her in a reasonably normal conversation, she speaks at a normal speed, not that drone.

Consider also how she can run off at the mouth in parliament.  There's still the awful accent, but that's not what I'm objecting to.

She absolutely could modify that tone of a teacher talking to an intellectually challenged five year old.


----------



## Logique

This is what happens when governments treat the community like fools. Electricity prices are a runaway train in NSW. PM Gillard take note.
All the same, Premier Keneally deserved a fairer go than to be brought in at the 11th hour. ALP pollies have been bailing out, one after another prior to the March 2011 election.

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Politics/2010/12/21/NSW_Labor_headed_for_crushing_defeat_554522.html
*NSW Labor headed for crushing defeat*
Tuesday, December 21, 2010

Kristina Keneally's government is the most unpopular Labor government since Newspoll began taking state polls in 1984, according to the latest poll.

Labor has just 24 per cent primary support, according to the poll conducted in November for The Australian newspaper. 

The result, published on Tuesday, means Kristina Keneally's government is the *most unpopular Labor government over the 26 years Newspoll has taken state polls*. 

The NSW coalition has 45 per cent primary support and *leads Labor 61 per cent to 39 per cent on a two-party-preferred basis*. 

Ms Keneally's satisfaction rating is down three percentage points to 35 per cent, while dissatisfaction is down one point to 49 per cent. 

Opposition Leader Barry O'Farrell's satisfaction rating dropped six points to 42 per cent and dissatisfaction rose one point to 33 per cent. 

Mr O'Farrell leads Ms Keneally as preferred premier by 40 per cent to 35 per cent.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> Opposition Leader Barry O'Farrell's satisfaction rating dropped six points to 42 per cent and dissatisfaction rose one point to 33 per cent.
> 
> Mr O'Farrell leads Ms Keneally as preferred premier by 40 per cent to 35 per cent.




Hard to remember a state or federal government that should hammered as much as the NSW Labor party but O'farrell's poll numbers should be double what they are and are really quite shocking.

Looks like one bunch of zombies replacing another


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> Looks like one bunch of zombies replacing another



That is exactly what will be happening in Qld when our election comes around and is why the Bligh government even achieved their current term.
The alternative Premier is woefully inadequate.
There is a small beacon of hope in that Mal Brough (from the previous federal govt) has rejoined the LNP.  If they have the sense to make him Leader (unlikely) then we citizens might at long last be able to feel a measure of confidence in government.

Meanwhile, despair grows daily.


----------



## noco

Is it any wonder the Gillard lead Labor Government and the state Labor Governments are on the nose. They just cannot manage finances. Their hare brain schemes finish up in disaster and the waste of money is becoming unbearable. They must make way for responsible government to clean up the mess. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/labors-fall-from-grace/story-e6frg6zo-1225974666362


----------



## noco

Another back flip by Gillard andf Swan. Another failure by this lame duck government. They must go and the sooner the better.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/gillard-retreats-on-levy-to-save-hide/story-fn6nj4ny-1225974698079


----------



## IFocus

noco said:


> Is it any wonder the Gillard lead Labor Government and the state Labor Governments are on the nose.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/labors-fall-from-grace/story-e6frg6zo-1225974666362




An excellent run down by Kelly of the current state of play



> One of Gillard's great qualities is her courage and tenacity. It is Labor's best hope.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> One of Gillard's great qualities is her courage and tenacity. It is Labor's best hope.




But what use is courage and tenacity when there appears to be nothing else?  There has been debacle after debacle.  Backflips.  Broken election promises.  Tax muddles. Oh and the well documented lies.


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> An excellent run down by Kelly of the current state of play




It's a pity Gillard did not give the Australian people some hope form all the waste of tax payers money on hare brain failed schemes.

God may save the Queen, but nothing will save Joolya. She will certainaly not see 2011 out. She had better marry Timmy and live a life of seclusion.


----------



## GumbyLearner

noco said:


> It's a pity Gillard did not give the Australian people some hope form all the waste of tax payers money on hare brain failed schemes.
> 
> God may save the Queen, but nothing will save Joolya. She will certainaly not see 2011 out. She had better marry Timmy and live a life of seclusion.




Or the Howard Government's waste of taxpayers money on advertising.

Both don't care about the people. As wikileaks reveals...

And neither do THE GREENS until they work out the difference between exchange value and use value.

And nor will parties like ONE NATION and their populist policies. Considering Pauline Hanson was a member of the Liberal Party for almost a decade and also sat on the Ipswich City Council.

I have no faith in any of these parties!!!!!!!
In particular the ALP, no longer the fair-go party!


----------



## Macquack

noco said:


> God may save the Queen, but nothing will save Joolya. She will certainaly not see 2011 out. She had better marry Timmy and live a life of seclusion.




Want to have a little wager on that noco. If you are right, I will retire to a life of seclusion and if you are wrong, you can retire to a life of delusion. 

Your prolific attacks on Julia Gillard sound like a broken record. Go play some golf or do something constructive instead of just whining.


----------



## noco

Macquack said:


> Want to have a little wager on that noco. If you are right, I will retire to a life of seclusion and if you are wrong, you can retire to a life of delusion.
> 
> Your prolific attacks on Julia Gillard sound like a broken record. Go play some golf or do something constructive instead of just whining.




Well Macquack, we will just have to wait and see, but when you observe what is coming from the Back Room Boys, you only have to put two and two together. Rob Oakshot is becoming restless with Gillard and if he were to defect, then their will be another election. If the other independant defects, then it is there for the taking by Abbott.

As far as broken records go, it is not as bad as Gillards puppets every time they come on TV. They all repeat the same lines given to them. Abbott is a wrecker and the Abbott three word slogans. Don't talk about broken records to me after having to listen to those parrots day after day.

Furthermore, you have no idea what I do. You are only surmising. If you only knew, you would most likely eat your words.


----------



## IFocus

Macquack said:


> Want to have a little wager on that noco. If you are right, I will retire to a life of seclusion and if you are wrong, you can retire to a life of delusion.
> 
> Your prolific attacks on Julia Gillard sound like a broken record. Go play some golf or do something constructive instead of just whining.




Its OK Mac Abbott and the opposition front bench will save Labor...............


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

What strikes me most about Gillard, is how flaky and nervous she is over the past 6 weeks in interviews. 

She is a faction warrior , so perhaps she knows her time is up.

It would be fun to have the ole reichmeister Rudd back in power, or one of the roosters.

gg


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Well Macquack, we will just have to wait and see, but when you observe what is coming from the Back Room Boys, you only have to put two and two together. Rob Oakshot is becoming restless with Gillard and if he were to defect, then their will be another election. If the other independant defects, then it is there for the taking by Abbott.
> 
> As far as broken records go, it is not as bad as Gillards puppets every time they come on TV. They all repeat the same lines given to them. Abbott is a wrecker and the Abbott three word slogans. Don't talk about broken records to me after having to listen to those parrots day after day.
> 
> Furthermore, you have no idea what I do. You are only surmising. If you only knew, you would most likely eat your words.




Noco are you Tony Abbott?


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> An excellent run down by Kelly of the current state of play



Now, IFocus, what has happened to your admirable level of objectivity displayed a couple of months ago?
Yes, that was Paul Kelly's final line in his extensive article which detailed the total folly and mismanagement of the present government, and in particular Julia Gillard's failure to create sustainable and workable policy.

To quote just that one line is to totally misrepresent the essence of Paul Kelly's thoughts.

There's little point in having 'courage' if what that courage is backing is poorly constructed and unworkable policy, the examples of which during the term of this government are many.  In fact, pretty much anything they have undertaken.
If you can come up with something they have instituted which has been a resounding and unqualified success, perhaps you could put it up here?



GumbyLearner said:


> Or the Howard Government's waste of taxpayers money on advertising.
> 
> Both don't care about the people. As wikileaks reveals...
> 
> And neither do THE GREENS until they work out the difference between exchange value and use value.
> 
> And nor will parties like ONE NATION and their populist policies. Considering Pauline Hanson was a member of the Liberal Party for almost a decade and also sat on the Ipswich City Council.
> 
> I have no faith in any of these parties!!!!!!!
> In particular the ALP, no longer the fair-go party!



 You are right.  So where does this leave us?   
No wonder the electorate overall is feeling disillusioned and helpless as we watch the debacle continue to unfold.


----------



## Macquack

noco said:


> Furthermore, you have no idea what I do. You are only surmising. If you only knew, you would most likely eat your words.




Well come on, spit it out and tell us what you do.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Macquack said:


> Well come on, spit it out and tell us what you do.




I know who Tony is on this forum and it is not noco.

gg


----------



## todster

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I know who Tony is on this forum and it is not noco.
> 
> gg




Is noco Julie Bishop the smiling koala?


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> Now, IFocus, what has happened to your admirable level of objectivity displayed a couple of months ago?
> Yes, that was Paul Kelly's final line in his extensive article which detailed the total folly and mismanagement of the present government, and in particular Julia Gillard's failure to create sustainable and workable policy.
> 
> To quote just that one line is to totally misrepresent the essence of Paul Kelly's thoughts.
> 
> There's little point in having 'courage' if what that courage is backing is poorly constructed and unworkable policy, the examples of which during the term of this government are many.  In fact, pretty much anything they have undertaken.
> If you can come up with something they have instituted which has been a resounding and unqualified success, perhaps you could put it up here?
> 
> 
> You are right.  So where does this leave us?
> No wonder the electorate overall is feeling disillusioned and helpless as we watch the debacle continue to unfold.




Why quote the last line of Kelly's excellent article because for 2011 it sums up Labors  position that I thought was the point obviously you think different as always.


----------



## joea

George from Melbourne comments in the Australian.

"I suppose the next tax imposed by the Gillard Government will be an "oxygen" tax on any Australian Citizen, who has surrived all the other taxes."

That has summed it up !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## noco

Macquack said:


> Well come on, spit it out and tell us what you do.




It's me to know and you to find out!!!!


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Noco are you Tony Abbott?




No, I'm not Tony Abbott but I know who GG is and that will remain a secret.


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Is noco Julie Bishop the smiling koala?




No, you're not even close.


----------



## noco

Poor Joolya, she will have to pull a rabbit out of her hat to surviev 2011. Who would want to swap shoes with a loser?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...faces-hot-summer/story-e6frg6zo-1225975616195


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Poor Joolya, she will have to pull a rabbit out of her hat to surviev 2011. Who would want to swap shoes with a loser?
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...faces-hot-summer/story-e6frg6zo-1225975616195




Coles has lemons and vinegar on special today for them last minute gifts noco
Merry Christmas


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Coles has lemons and vinegar on special today for them last minute gifts noco
> Merry Christmas




todster,sorry if I got up your nostril on Xmas Eve.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> todster,sorry if I got up your nostril on Xmas Eve.




Geez a bit early to be puttin anything up your nostril noco you old party animal you
Dancin round in a flouro outfit blowin a whistle rock on pops!


----------



## sails

todster said:


> Coles has lemons and vinegar on special today for them last minute gifts noco
> Merry Christmas




Haha Todster - your unpunctuated oneliners usually give me a laugh...:wreath

Yeah, better buy those lemons and vinegar quick because they might be the next thing with a 40% tax - or until Abbott can rescue us...

 :chimney


----------



## todster

sails said:


> Haha Todster - your unpunctuated oneliners usually give me a laugh...:wreath
> 
> Yeah, better buy those lemons and vinegar quick because they might be the next thing with a 40% tax - or until Abbott can rescue us...
> 
> :chimney




Merry Christmas sails

Most of my education or lack of was under Liberal Governments i think.
I grow my own lemons and limes
Bogans love em in coronas


----------



## Logique

Extract from:  Paul Davey, 2010:   ‘Ninety Not Out’  The Nationals 1920  - 2010

[DÃ©jÃ  vu, as it were ‘..all over again..’]

Doug Anthony at NCP campaign launch in Brisbane, 26 November 1975: 


> ‘…Mr Whitlam weeps crocodile tears for democracy, while he stands knee-deep in the wreckage of his policies. The real lawlessness to be feared in Australia today is lawlessness in government….
> While Mr Whitlam laments his self-imposed fate, we head for 400,000 unemployed. We’re on the way to 20% inflation and worse. We are running up a national debt of $6,000 million under Labor…’



In conclusion he borrowed from Labor’s 1972 election slogan and from Whitlam’s own words: 


> ‘...Men and  of Australia:  It’s time to stand up and be counted. It’s time to stem the socialist tide. It’s time to return to integrity. It’s time to sweep out the Whitlam wreckage. It’s time to put Australia back on it’s feet…’


----------



## noco

Is our stanard of living and the cost thereof a direct result of poor Government policy or can we continue to blame the recession we did not really have?
Has the Government spent twice as much tax payers money unneccessarily?
Could we have done as much with half the stimulas if it had been directed in an appropriate manner without the waste we have all witnessed?
I look forward to other ASF members opinion.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/money...ndards-worsening/story-e6freqoo-1225976582037


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

noco said:


> Is our stanard of living and the cost thereof a direct result of poor Government policy or can we continue to blame the recession we did not really have?
> Has the Government spent twice as much tax payers money unneccessarily?
> Could we have done as much with half the stimulas if it had been directed in an appropriate manner without the waste we have all witnessed?
> I look forward to other ASF members opinion.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/money...ndards-worsening/story-e6freqoo-1225976582037




Good points noco,

The answers are yes and yes,

Never trust a Labor government with a surplus,

They are a collective pack of spendthrifts and cowpersons, with ne're an ounce of business or work experience.

When you have lawyers and union activists on the front bench, so far removed from the ordinary person's experience, what can one expect?

gg


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Is our stanard of living and the cost thereof a direct result of poor Government policy or can we continue to blame the recession we did not really have?
> Has the Government spent twice as much tax payers money unneccessarily?
> Could we have done as much with half the stimulas if it had been directed in an appropriate manner without the waste we have all witnessed?
> I look forward to other ASF members opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/money...ndards-worsening/story-e6freqoo-1225976582037




yes and yes!

Australia has evolved from a nation, into a collection of states because of political popularity and not policy.
It appears the Australian voter compares, hair colour, nose and ear size over policy.
Because the voters do this (because of tecnology(tv,internet,etc.)), the politicans are competing for popularity.

The leaders are only a spokes person for a party or movement. The compiled policy"s
come from a lot of people in the background.
As the state election are held through 2011, I sincerely hope the  people will vote on policy.
In the mean time the political parties need to pull their finger out and create some policy's that are worth voting for.

All is not lost but badly dented.
Cheers


----------



## noco

joea said:


> yes and yes!
> 
> Australia has evolved from a nation, into a collection of states because of political popularity and not policy.
> It appears the Australian voter compares, hair colour, nose and ear size over policy.
> Because the voters do this (because of tecnology(tv,internet,etc.)), the politicans are competing for popularity.
> 
> The leaders are only a spokes person for a party or movement. The compiled policy"s
> come from a lot of people in the background.
> As the state election are held through 2011, I sincerely hope the  people will vote on policy.
> In the mean time the political parties need to pull their finger out and create some policy's that are worth voting for.
> 
> All is not lost but badly dented.
> Cheers




It all eventually gets back to the hip pocket ie. the cost of living. If governments cause hardship to working families, they will eventually pay the price. Government waste of tax payers money whether state or federal will always affect the cost of living.
Yes, the naive are generally sucked in by the charisma of a politician. If they have a toothy smile and a humoruos tongue and are able to spin there way out of trouble, policy is often overlooked


----------



## bigdog

I predict that Labour will be out within six months when Rob Oakeshott jumps ship.

Rob Oakeshott is young and wants to be re-elected in a rural electrate that is hostile with his decision to support.

He knows that he will not be re-elected in three years time!


----------



## Calliope

bigdog said:


> I predict that Labour will be out within six months when Rob Oakeshott jumps ship.
> 
> Rob Oakeshott is young and wants to be re-elected in a rural electrate that is hostile with his decision to support.
> 
> He knows that he will not be re-elected in three years time!




Any government that is dependent on the three wingnut Independents is on very shaky grounds. Abbott's best bet would be another election.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Any government that is dependent on the three wingnut Independents is on very shaky grounds. Abbott's best bet would be another election.




If Oakshot defects to the Coalition, there will have to be another election of the lower house.
If two independants defect at the one time, Abbott becomes Prims Minister, then his best bet would be to have a double dissolution if the occassion arises and hopefully rid the Senate of the Greens or he could call an election of the lower house to gain a larger majority. His problem will be the Senate where the Greens will hold the balance of power from July 1 2011.


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> ...His problem will be the Senate where the Greens will hold the balance of power from July 1 2011.



The words of a former PM will resonate during 2011, _'un-representative swill'_, said PM Keating of the Upper House. Year 2011 will be an epic in politics.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> The words of a former PM will resonate during 2011, _'un-representative swill'_, said PM Keating of the Upper House. Year 2011 will be an epic in politics.




Any impending disasters like cyclones, floods, droughts and bushfires pale into insignificance compared to the havoc the Green's balance of power will wreak on the Australian economy. If you thought Gillard was rooting the country "you ain't seen nuthin yet."


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Logique said:


> The words of a former PM will resonate during 2011, _'un-representative swill'_, said PM Keating of the Upper House. Year 2011 will be an epic in politics.






Calliope said:


> Any impending disasters like cyclones, floods, droughts and bushfires pale into insignificance compared to the havoc the Green's balance of power will wreak on the Australian economy. If you thought Gillard was rooting the country "you ain't seen nuthin yet."




Too right L and C. 

This year will witness the end of rationality, and the ALP as we know it, excuse me for mentioning the two in the same sentence.

gg


----------



## IFocus

The sky is falling........the sky is falling..........LOL ............keep dreaming boys        

Back to the Christmas cheer for me


----------



## Slipperz

Logique said:


> The words of a former PM will resonate during 2011, _'un-representative swill'_, said PM Keating of the Upper House. Year 2011 will be an epic in politics.




LOL good old PK had a way with words didn't he! Hey  if the cap fits wear it and looking at what the electorate of Lyne voted for I'd say if this was 1010 not 2010 Rob Oakshotte would be swinging off a tree somewhere. Unbelievable imho just buy the electorate off with buckets off other taxpayers money.

http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/guide/lyne.htm


Now if my eyes don't decieve me 85.8% of the electorate didn't vote for Labor in an 18.5 swing against the incumbent Labor government.

Yet their representative is going to vote in the house with labor.

:bonk:


----------



## Logique

Internet shopping, imported-mail order: for once Bill Shorten is right.

Gerry Harvey and other retailers..moan..somebody can do it cheaper than us...moan..they don't have to pay GST like us...they pay less wages than us...moan.

The retail sector's proposal to tax imported internet shopping items is nothing less than a tariff. And as Shorten says, almost impossible and prohibitively expensive to administer.

Tariffs, you know the things everyone rounded on Bob Katter and others for proposing as protection for our domestic agriculture sector. Such impure economic theory. But not it seems, to the chain retailers (now).


----------



## Mofra

Slipperz said:


> LOL good old PK had a way with words didn't he! Hey  if the cap fits wear it and looking at what the electorate of Lyne voted for I'd say if this was 1010 not 2010 Rob Oakshotte would be swinging off a tree somewhere. Unbelievable imho just buy the electorate off with buckets off other taxpayers money.



Abbott tried the buy-off of Wilkie in Tas (promised $1bn for the hospital vs $100m from Jules) but it didn't quite work. Both sides aren't angels here.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> Abbott tried the buy-off of Wilkie in Tas (promised $1bn for the hospital vs $100m from Jules) but it didn't quite work. Both sides aren't angels here.




Jules wasn't actually quite so modest in the amount offered...:..:
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/no-pork-in-hospital-funding-agreement-20100902-14rq0.html



> ANDREW WILKIE came to Canberra demanding a new Royal Hobart Hospital. When Tony Abbott offered him $1 billion for just that, he knocked it back and accepted Julia Gillard's offer of *$340 million *for a refurbishment.




I seem to recall reading that it was potentially a set up in that Wilke had no intention of going with Abbott and by extracting the $1B offer gave Wilke the opportunity to rubbish Abbott publically and look like the "good kid" who would take the more modest offer.

True or not, I don't know.  But there were clearly some desperate tactical moves to take power at the time.  One thing is for sure and that is Wilke was quick to run to the media with the details.  He seemed to almost enjoy sticking it into Abbott - and as most lefties still do...


----------



## Logique

One-term Wilkie. Tasmanians aren't that silly.

Abbott was a bit naive, but won't be a second time. You can paint yourself into a corner as a politician, and hello out there to the two remaining Amigos, because northern NSW electors aren't that silly either.


----------



## noco

Julia Gillard this morning made a big announcement on her flood raged tour that she will flood proof the Bruce highway. And yes, the socialist lefties will say the coalation had 10 years to do it and did nothing. And yes, I have heard this promise from both sides of politics for decades. And yes, lots have been done to improve the highway, I recall a road trip to Rocky in 1956 and traversed gravel road from GIN Gin to Rockhampton.
But Gillard did not say when or how long she would take to carry out her promise. More spin and no action, just like Hawkie said "no child will be living in poverty by 1990'.


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> Julia Gillard this morning made a big announcement on her flood raged tour that she will flood proof the Bruce highway...............But Gillard did not say when or how long she would take to carry out her promise. More spin and no action, just like Hawkie said "no child will be living in poverty by 1990'.



Cheers Noco. I recall during the Federal election, we saw PM Gillard and NSW Premier Keneally striding along the platform, media pack trailing behind, promising the Sydney Northwest Rail link ($5 billion). 

A one-day wonder, greeted with guffaws of laughter. Sydney-siders thought...as if..


----------



## joea

Well you have to give it to our Julia, she has come up with a new word over the hols.

 "STRATEGY"

Cheers.


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Well you have to give it to our Julia, she has come up with a new word over the hols.
> 
> "STRATEGY"
> 
> Cheers.




Yeah, the new Joolya 2011 mark (iv)


----------



## sails

joea said:


> Well you have to give it to our Julia, she has come up with a new word over the hols.
> 
> "STRATEGY"
> 
> Cheers.




Haven't heard it yet, but can imagine it being drawled out quite slowly while the raised hands make their pushing away and somewhat condescending signals.  Did I get it right?

I wonder how many times she will manage to get that word into a few sentences...

"Dialogue" was a classic for repetitivness as was the now infamous "mooving forward".

Now, if some people hadn't made so much fun of Abbott's speech, I probably wouldn't have posted the above.  But what's good for the goose is good for the gander (or the other way around in this case)...


----------



## Julia

"The new paradigm" seems to have been dropped rather abruptly.
Guess it hasn't had much to recommend it.


----------



## joea

sails said:


> Haven't heard it yet, but can imagine it being drawled out quite slowly while the raised hands make their pushing away and somewhat condescending signals.  Did I get it right?
> 
> I wonder how many times she will manage to get that word into a few sentences...
> 
> "Dialogue" was a classic for repetitivness as was the now infamous "mooving forward".
> 
> Now, if some people hadn't made so much fun of Abbott's speech, I probably wouldn't have posted the above.  But what's good for the goose is good for the gander (or the other way around in this case)...




Hi.
A New National Ports "Strategy" was announced.
Up front Julia is going to improve the export infrastructure. By a long term plan.
Now that is interesting.
Behind the scene I am thinking that, because of the floods the export potential of Australia may dally a little. i.e. will we be in a surplus by the end of her term?

I think the next 3 months are going to be very interesting.


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> *Now, if some people hadn't made so much fun of Abbott's speech*, I probably wouldn't have posted the above.  But what's good for the goose is good for the gander (or the other way around in this case)...



 Really? I've barely heard a peep about Abbott, but Julia's accent pops up in every page on this thread at least once. I would have thought an accent is the least of the worries for the "sky is falling" crew :


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> Jules wasn't actually quite so modest in the amount offered...:..:
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/no-pork-in-hospital-funding-agreement-20100902-14rq0.html



So Abbotts pork barrel was only ~thrice the amount of Julia's - that's a good thing?

The bleating on ASF if the roles were reversed would be deafening.


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Hi.
> A New National Ports "Strategy" was announced.
> Up front Julia is going to improve the export infrastructure. By a long term plan.
> Now that is interesting.
> Behind the scene I am thinking that, because of the floods the export potential of Australia may dally a little. i.e. will we be in a surplus by the end of her term?
> 
> I think the next 3 months are going to be very interesting.




Joolya and Anna will flog the Queensland floods to the death. GFC mark(ii) Soory we have no money left, it's all gone to help Queensland back to life!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> So Abbotts pork barrel was only ~thrice the amount of Julia's - that's a good thing?
> 
> The bleating on ASF if the roles were reversed would be deafening.




Was only correcting your statement of $100 million when it reality it was over thrice the amount...

And I'm not convinced that it wasn't a deliberate ploy on Wilke's part with the way he ran straight to the media to dob on Abbott's more generous offer and subsequently make him look bad.

In hindsight, I doubt that Wilke ever had any intention of accepting Abbott's offer.  If Abbott's offer had been less, I think he would he have run to the media saying that Gillard's offer was better.  Whichever way it went, it appears Wilke seemed hell bent to rubbish Abbott.  



Mofra said:


> Really? I've barely heard a peep about Abbott, but Julia's accent pops up in every page on this thread at least once. I would have thought an accent is the least of the worries for the "sky is falling" crew :




Oh Mofra, it's more than an accent and this happens to be a Gillard thread... 

I have heard labor supporters admit they switch channels when she comes on so it's not only an anti labor thing.


----------



## joea

Article in Business Speculator about the new energy network roll-out to cost 
$8.3 billion between now and 2021.
This was launched by Martin Ferguson. Dubbed "NEMLink".
Cheers


----------



## nioka

Julia had better get her act together. I saw an add in the weekend paper for a Senior public relations adviser to Tony Abbott. Did anyone here apply?. This is where the experts seem to post and he really does need an expert. On your CV you could quote the number of posts on HC. And of course your undying support for the Libs. 

Not directed at anyone in particular !!!!!!!


----------



## Knobby22

I reckon Tony Abbott would be looking for someone who isn't a died in the wool supporter. Someone who can see different sides in an argument and doesn't believe everything they are told by their favourite political party (be it Labor or Liberal or Green).


----------



## Mofra

Knobby22 said:


> I reckon Tony Abbott would be looking for someone who isn't a died in the wool supporter. Someone who can see different sides in an argument and doesn't believe everything they are told by their favourite political party (be it Labor or Liberal or Green).



All 4 major parties could do with such advice.
I wait for the day they start hiring _social_ advisers to advise them what _should_ be done, rather than merely what will impress their electorate in the short term.


----------



## Knobby22

Mofra said:


> All 4 major parties could do with such advice.
> I wait for the day they start hiring _social_ advisers to advise them what _should_ be done, rather than merely what will impress their electorate in the short term.




We can dream, Mofra, we can  dream


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> We can dream, Mofra, we can  dream




+1..................


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> +1..................




+2.
Pure fantasy, of course.


----------



## Logique

Anna Bligh's approval rating has shot up during the floods. I reckon the green-eyed monster will be stalking around in Fed & other State parliaments.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> Anna Bligh's approval rating has shot up during the floods. I reckon the green-eyed monster will be stalking around in Fed & other State parliaments.




Bligh's performance has been very impressive during this crisis. So too have been the performances of the regional mayors in the flood affected cities and towns. 

This is in stark contrast to the blow-in Gillard. Her performance started with a po-faced expression and funeral tones as she intoned about "standing shoulder to shoulder in these dire circumstances" and other cliched bull****. Her focus group obviously told her to lighten up. Now she is running around hugging people and kissing children in evacuation centres. She appears to be back in  holiday mood and is enjoying herself

Her predecessor Rudd had an ABC crew on hand to film his stage-managed heroics wading fully dressed in knee deep water carrying furniture from a house in his electorate. "Thanks boys" he said as he waved to the film crew at the end of the shoot. 

Perhaps Gillard will have to try to match that one.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> Anna Bligh's approval rating has shot up during the floods. I reckon the green-eyed monster will be stalking around in Fed & other State parliaments.




Yes Logique, I just hope Anna is sincere in her efforts to show compassion and support as a leader. With her constant showing with the media and on TV she can be a master of perception. There is nothing like gaining popularity from a situation of major proportions as experienced in Queensland. Where are the rest of her warriors? 

At least Anna did not stand in front of the camera receiving her televsion makeup before being interviewed unlike the long nose redhead.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Bligh's performance has been very impressive during this crisis. So too have been the performances of the regional mayors in the flood affected cities and towns.
> 
> This is in stark contrast to the blow-in Gillard. Her performance started with a po-faced expression and funeral tones as she intoned about "standing shoulder to shoulder in these dire circumstances" and other cliched bull****. Her focus group obviously told her to lighten up. Now she is running around hugging people and kissing children in evacuation centres. She appears to be back in  holiday mood and is enjoying herself
> 
> Her predecessor Rudd had an ABC crew on hand to film his stage-managed heroics wading fully dressed in knee deep water carrying furniture from a house in his electorate. "Thanks boys" he said as he waved to the film crew at the end of the shoot.
> 
> Perhaps Gillard will have to try to match that one.




Exactly right on all points.  Gillard has struck quite the wrong note with her gooing happily at toddlers and hugging people in evacuation centres.   Just smacks of total insincerity.

And Rudd's effort made me feel quite sick as he made sure he recounted the hours in the middle of the night he'd been trudging round in the water.  I doubt too many will be fooled over such a stunt.  He must truly think Australians are stupid.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...And Rudd's effort made me feel quite sick as he made sure he recounted the hours in the middle of the night he'd been trudging round in the water.  I doubt too many will be fooled over such a stunt.  He must truly think Australians are stupid.




I felt quite sick at Rudd too.  He throws billions away in overseas aid and yet Aussies (who have paid the taxes in the first place) don't seem to matter as much.  How come Aussies are offered interest free loans and yet money is so freely distributed to any other country that needs to get it's economy back on track after a major disaster.  His little filmed stunt was pathetic under these circumstances.  

We had dinner with friends last Sat night who were blissfully ignorant that in less than a week their business of several years (at Rocklea) was totally submerged including some expensive equipment.  They understood they were fully insured only to be told their policy excludes flood.  

They fear that is the end of their business.  There goes about 20 or more employees jobs.  The centrelink queues are going to be huge as our friends would only be one of hundreds, if not thousands of business totally ruined.  Surely it makes more sense get the economy up and running again rather than pay out massive dole cheques for a long time because so many small businesses can no longer employ.

Maybe it's time for federal government to realise that this might be a case of charity beginning at home to get the economy back up and running.  It's all very well to fling Aussie tax payers dollars overseas to build schools and bridges wherever it takes Rudd's fancy, but where's the emergency funds to keep Aussie working families in jobs?

End of rant...
But please do not respond with some cliched labor propaganda.  It would be entirely inappropriate under these severe conditions in Qld.


----------



## J&M

sails said:


> I felt quite sick at Rudd too.  He throws billions away in overseas aid and yet Aussies (who have paid the taxes in the first place) don't seem to matter as much.  How come Aussies are offered interest free loans and yet money is so freely distributed to any other country that needs to get it's economy back on track after a major disaster.  His little filmed stunt was pathetic under these circumstances.
> 
> We had dinner with friends last Sat night who were blissfully ignorant that in less than a week their business of several years (at Rocklea) was totally submerged including some expensive equipment.  They understood they were fully insured only to be told their policy excludes flood.
> 
> They fear that is the end of their business.  There goes about 20 or more employees jobs.  The centrelink queues are going to be huge as our friends would only be one of hundreds, if not thousands of business totally ruined.  Surely it makes more sense get the economy up and running again rather than pay out massive dole cheques for a long time because so many small businesses can no longer employ.
> 
> Maybe it's time for federal government to realise that this might be a case of charity beginning at home to get the economy back up and running.  It's all very well to fling Aussie tax payers dollars overseas to build schools and bridges wherever it takes Rudd's fancy, but where's the emergency funds to keep Aussie working families in jobs?
> 
> End of rant...
> But please do not respond with some cliched labor propaganda.  It would be entirely inappropriate under these severe conditions in Qld.






Great Read Sails 
I am at Jamboree Heights we only lost power for 2 days 
We are close to Goodna many house here went under the flood and many were not insured. Radio comments says some are going back and just crying when they see the damage done.  
Charity as they say should be for Australians in the sad time of need


----------



## wayneL

Just heard Joolya speak for the first time in yonks. Sound like she's trying to communicate with a Chinese tourist... what happened? Speech lessons?


----------



## sails

wayneL said:


> Just heard Joolya speak for the first time in yonks. Sound like she's trying to communicate with a Chinese tourist... what happened? Speech lessons?




She was appearing quite regularly with Anna Bligh on Qld TV.  But Anna completely stole the show and then Gillard dissapeared for a while...

Initially, Gillard was dressed in some sombre outfit and carrying on about all that the fed government was doing.  Almost as if she was in campaign mode.    Then, next thing she is dressed in a bright blue frilly thing, laughing and giggling that they had everything under control (still in apparent campaign mode), hugging babies and other people.  Strange, very strange behaviour in these circumstances, IMO...

Bligh was so down to earth, kept up with frequent and detailed updates. Now, if she could only manage the state as well as she has managed this disaster...


----------



## WaveSurfer

Julia said:


> Exactly right on all points.  Gillard has struck quite the wrong note with her gooing happily at toddlers and hugging people in evacuation centres.   Just smacks of total insincerity.
> 
> And Rudd's effort made me feel quite sick as he made sure he recounted the hours in the middle of the night he'd been trudging round in the water.  I doubt too many will be fooled over such a stunt.  *He must truly think Australians are stupid.*




Sad thing is, many of them are.

The ousting of Dudd ended any faith I had in politics (not that there was much there to start with). Nothing more than a bunch of puppets. And don't for one second think that the coalition are any better. That's naive if you do.


----------



## sails

Solly said:


> ...
> 
> Has Anna Bligh earned herself a second chance? 20110113-19ojm.htm....




An excerpt from the link above - sums up some of what I was trying to say:



> To understand why, you only had to see her joint presser with Julia Gillard yesterday. The PM, while no doubt being sincere in wanting to help, and in her horror of the toll, nonetheless contrived to present as a poor actor playing at stateswoman. The cliched lines, seeming stale and overdone before they were halfway out of her mouth, contrasted poorly with Bligh's untutored but comprehensive delivery and unpolished appearance. Even the Premier seemed to be a million miles away while her senior colleague droned on and on.


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Maybe it's time for federal government to realise that this might be a case of charity beginning at home to get the economy back up and running.  It's all very well to fling Aussie tax payers dollars overseas to build schools and bridges wherever it takes Rudd's fancy, but where's the emergency funds to keep Aussie working families in jobs?
> 
> End of rant...
> But please do not respond with some cliched labor propaganda.  It would be entirely inappropriate under these severe conditions in Qld.




Propaganda........Papua New Guinea have donated 3 million dollars..........papua new guinea life expectancy = 61 years


----------



## GumbyLearner

IFocus said:


> Propaganda........Papua New Guinea have donated 3 million dollars..........papua new guinea life expectancy = 61 years




Time to buy SGH shares no doubt.  Totally awesome 6 month chart.


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> Bligh's performance has been very impressive during this crisis. ....



The instinctive reactions of Bligh and Gillard were telling. Bligh talked and dressed like she meant business, and spoke to, and of, all Queenslanders, without qualification.  'Working families', and I use the term advisedly, could get in the queue with everyone else.  

Gillard went to QLD as the usual packaged product, talking to the usual constituency. Every NZ'er in this forum knows what I mean.


----------



## SM Junkie

Is Julia looking a little emotionless these days?? A little wrinkle free? I think she has gone to hard on the Botox!


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Propaganda........Papua New Guinea have donated 3 million dollars..........papua new guinea life expectancy = 61 years




IFocus, when I read you post, I got the impression they had donated from their own tax funds.  So I googled for more information which I have posted below. 

Even at $4m, it's actually less than 1% of their annual aid from Australia.  Not knocking the donation by any means as it will definitely boost relief funds and it is good of them to return something to Australia in our time of need.  But let's also stick to the facts instead of only telling part of the story ... 



> PAPUA New Guinea has pledged 10 million kina ($4 million) in support for flood-ravaged Australia.
> 
> PNG, which receives close to *$457 million a year from Australia in aid*, has also offered military and logistical help




Full article here: Papua New Guinea pledges $4m for Queensland flood relief


----------



## moXJO

sails said:


> PNG, which receives close to $457 million a year from Australia in aid, has also offered military and logistical help




These are actually soft loans which are a way that Australia can maintain and increase its influence on things like immigration and foreign policy. I think China is doing the same thing very heavily around the globe atm. 
PNG has pledged more than Indonesia, but in reality we pretty much are plundering Indonesia’s resources.


----------



## noco

What has are Prime Minister got to hide with NBN exemption of FOI.

Even the Greens are not happy with her decision.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...payer-funded-nbn/story-fn59niix-1225990173260


----------



## Mofra

noco said:


> What has are Prime Minister got to hide with NBN exemption of FOI.



I'm working on an FOI case at the moment in the telco indistry - I can assure you that after the exempt provisions are removed, the remaining information is useless anyway. 

They don't need the FOI exemption in any case - under the terms set by the Privacy Commisioner and the relevant legislation, anything that diverts a substantial portion of resources away from normal duties allows an FOI request to be suspended (often indefinately). NBN Co are obviously running at the minimum required staffing levels so adding thousands of hours of work in an FOI request would easily meet the criteria.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I have done a quick sample of the good burghers of the Ross Island Hotel, their fiancees, fiances and dependents, and Gillard has buckleys of getting re-elected.

If she has lost this mob, she is a gonner.

gg


----------



## drsmith

She may be a gonner well before the next election if the ALP and its assortment of bed partners go anywhere near full term.

She should have been a gonner last time, but Tony didn't stand for anything of substance.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> She may be a gonner well before the next election if the ALP and its assortment of bed partners go anywhere near full term.
> 
> She should have been a gonner last time, but Tony didn't stand for anything of substance.




She is most likely happy the floods have given her a breather from the People Smuglers, illegal boat arrivals, BER, faulty Home Insulation, computers in schools, MRT, the CPRS, NBN, the Greens etc. etc. and last but not least Kevin Rudd.


----------



## Boggo

noco said:


> She is most likely happy the floods have given her a breather from the People Smuglers, illegal boat arrivals,.




And they place our soldiers in temporary substandard accommodation at Edinburgh airforce base while the illegal immigrants reside in what was army accommodation at Woodside.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/edinburgh-troops-dont-like-new-digs/story-fn6bqphm-1225991350601


----------



## glenn_r

Caught a few minutes of the Oprah show last whilst channel surfing, it was the bit with Oprah and Gillard walking by the Yarra in Melbourne, my god the way she came across was dead set Red neck, I don't know about you but I would want a more polished leader than her, apart from her fellow Red Necks in the US the rest would have had a chuckle at the leader of down under...


----------



## Logique

Bob Katter, what a guy.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ee-amigos-schism/story-fn59niix-1225991971441
*Bob Katter reveals three amigos schism* - by Jame Walker in _The Australian_ January 20, 2011

PARLIAMENT'S three amigos are no more, after Bob Katter accused one of his fellow rural independents of undermining him and the other "went his own way". 
Mr Katter has for the first time detailed his disappointment and frustration with the men who steered Julia Gillard into The Lodge after last August's inconclusive federal election.

"The independents' movement in Australia has failed, failed miserably," Mr Katter told The Australian, lifting the lid on infighting between the key crossbenchers.

For a time, feelings were so raw for the maverick Queensland MP that he refused to attend policy or legislative briefings by the government or opposition with Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott, his former amigos. This has compounded the difficulty of managing the knife-edge numbers in parliament for both major parties............

...........Mr Katter said he had clashed heatedly with Mr Oakeshott at a meeting the three had with Treasury head Ken Henry during their intense post-election deliberations.

At that point, they had been working towards a joint position on who should be prime minister. Of the remaining crossbenchers, the Greens' Adam Bandt had by then announced his support for Labor and Tasmanian independent Andrew Wilkie was about to do so. Mr Katter said Mr Oakeshott took umbrage at how the MP for the north Queensland seat of Kennedy had spoken to Mr Henry during their private briefing at Parliament House on September 1.

"Yeah, it was short and heated," Mr Katter said of the altercation with Mr Oakeshott. "And Rob said, 'This is not a Senate hearing', and (I said), 'Then what the f . . . are we sitting here for, Rob, what are we sitting here for. I'm wasting two hours of my time here so we can tell Ken Henry what a good bloke he is'."..............


----------



## bigdog

Sing along with Julie G, Kevin R, Paul K and Bob H

Q&A | The Prime Ministers' Song | Mondays 9.35pm ABC1 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ja7Vv_4Vc&feature=channel


----------



## noco

The Labor Party, BIG SPENDERS AND BIG TAXERS. How many more taxes does Gillard want to set upon us?
http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...on_tax_how_many_more_taxes_does_gillard_want/


----------



## Mofra

noco said:


> The Labor Party, BIG SPENDERS AND BIG TAXERS. How many more taxes does Gillard want to set upon us?
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...on_tax_how_many_more_taxes_does_gillard_want/



Following a Coalition precedent, from an opinion piece that at least attempts balance (it's well known that Bolt makes Genghis Khan look centre-left):

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/gillard-has-time-to-levy-and-recover-20110123-1a16v.html


----------



## drsmith

If we get a flood levy, it will never be removed. Natural disasters of varying magnitude are regular occurences. Taxpayer bailouts such as a levy would also encourage poor planning. 

The government needs to manage this within its budget.


----------



## noco

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have done a quick sample of the good burghers of the Ross Island Hotel, their fiancees, fiances and dependents, and Gillard has buckleys of getting re-elected.
> 
> If she has lost this mob, she is a gonner.
> 
> gg




GG I think Joolya is starting to realise bein' PM ain't what she thought it would be. Time for her to go. 



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...mments/maybe_she_realises_shes_just_not_a_pm/


----------



## Mofra

drsmith said:


> If we get a flood levy, it will never be removed. Natural disasters of varying magnitude are regular occurences. Taxpayer bailouts such as a levy would also encourage poor planning.



Many levies are removed after a one-off. 

The 0.2% increase to the Medicare levy in 96-97 to fund the gun buyback.
The Ansett Levy.
The Timor tax was approved and repealed at the last minute.

The only one that wasn't immediately repealed was the 11c per litle milk levy, and that was eventually scrapped by a change of government (although one wonders if that was the price Rudd paid for more support in marginal seats in Qld).


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> If we get a flood levy, it will never be removed. Natural disasters of varying magnitude are regular occurences. Taxpayer bailouts such as a levy would also encourage poor planning.
> 
> The government needs to manage this within its budget.




There are suggestions it will be added to the Medicare levy


----------



## drsmith

Mofra said:


> Many levies are removed after a one-off.



To me, it's the many that's the problem. If it's easier for a government to levy than to re-prioritise, then it will levy.

Did we have special levies post the74 Brisbane floods or the destruction of Darwin after Tracy ?



Calliope said:


> There are suggestions it will be added to the Medicare levy



And means tested too no doubt, should it come to pass.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> To me, it's the many that's the problem. If it's easier for a government to levy than to re-prioritise, then it will levy.
> 
> Did we have special levies post the74 Brisbane floods or the destruction of Darwin after Tracy ?
> 
> 
> And means tested too no doubt, should it come to pass.




Does anyone know how much?


----------



## Mofra

drsmith said:


> To me, it's the many that's the problem. If it's easier for a government to levy than to re-prioritise, then it will levy.
> 
> Did we have special levies post the74 Brisbane floods or the destruction of Darwin after Tracy ?



Before my time sadly, so I couldn't comment.
Levies seem to be a part of the political landscape, and they have been since the early Howard era. 

Personally in the event of a major catastrophe I am not opposed - something such as a levy for a political policy change I would be opposed to.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> And means tested too no doubt, should it come to pass.



Don't you think it should be means tested?



noco said:


> Does anyone know how much?



0.5% has been suggested, but I can't remember by whom.

The government's move to set up a group of business leaders to discuss what should happen is sensible.  No doubt a large part of their reason for doing this was to be able to deflect criticism from themselves should a new levy be imposed.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Don't you think it should be means tested?
> 
> 
> 0.5% has been suggested, but I can't remember by whom.
> 
> The government's move to set up a group of business leaders to discuss what should happen is sensible.  No doubt a large part of their reason for doing this was to be able to deflect criticism from themselves should a new levy be imposed.



Nothing should be means tested as it creates distortions in marginal tax rates. The LDP's 30/30 income tax policy strikes me as a good foundation for overall income tax policy.

One option for the government, should it decide to impose a levy, could be Tony Abbott's maternity scheme levy on business. It would be interesting to see how he responds to that. 

The main question here is at what level of disaster should governments fund recovery from increased taxation. It's a difficult one to answer, but the basic principal should be to re-prioritise other spending first. Past history could also be a guide as noted in my earlier post. This government since its election in 2007 has, as many of us understand, been extremely wasteful of taxpayers funds since that time. On that basis alone, I find myself very reluctant to endorse any increase in taxation by this government inparticular.


----------



## trainspotter

1) Why don't they use the leftover money from the Pink Batt Fiasco? 
2) What about the money put aside for the "Cash for Clunkers" program? 
3) Why not use some of the money from the 30% Health Takeover GST system?
4) Use some of the RSPT money to cover costs?
5) The BER still has money left in the slush fund?
6) I won't go on as it will get boring.
7) Just one more - the NBN pool of money could be used !!! 
8) Can't stop now ....... what about the 900 million they took out of Medibank Private to prop up the budget??
9) No seriously ........ no more ..... OK !!
10) I shall not mention the ETS backflip. What about the money set aside for this catastrophe?

Ooopsies ...... none of these are a solution and nor is placing a levy on the taxpayers to pay for a natural disaster. That is what insurance companies are for. Tighten the legislation surrounding policies that WILL COVER flood damage. IMO


----------



## Calliope

trainspotter said:


> 1) ...... none of these are a solution and nor is placing a levy on the taxpayers to pay for a natural disaster. That is what insurance companies are for. Tighten the legislation surrounding policies that WILL COVER flood damage. IMO




The cost of coverage in high risk ares is the problem. In the past people were tempted to take a punt, but the likelihood of more frequent major flooding may decide people to pay the higher premiums or look elsewhere.

Another factor is that nearly all our country towns are located on flood plains.



> Queensland's flood disaster has again highlighted the serious shortcomings of Australia's insurance regime, with flood cover unaffordable for many households in flood-prone areas. It also reinforces the need to carefully review the current policy you have.
> 
> Floods are Australia’s most common and costly natural disaster type. Over the past three decades, the cost of all flooding in Australia has ranged between $2.5 billion and $4 billion per decade.
> 
> While nearly half the policies in our survey cover flood, CHOICE is concerned people in officially flood-prone areas may be charged a much higher premium – some insurers have indicated a surcharge of as high as 1000% for the highest flood risk they cover.  It’s estimated that approximately 3% of Australian properties are at grave risk of flooding and cover let alone affordable cover may not be available to them



.

(Choice 14/1/11)


----------



## Julia

From Calliope's quote ex 'Choice':


> While nearly half the policies in our survey cover flood, CHOICE is concerned people in officially flood-prone areas may be charged a much higher premium – some insurers have indicated a surcharge of as high as 1000% for the highest flood risk they cover. It’s estimated that approximately 3% of Australian properties are at grave risk of flooding and cover let alone affordable cover may not be available to them




That seems entirely reasonable to me.  Insurance companies are not charities.
Why would anyone expect them to take on extraordinary risk without extraordinary premiums?

The following is link to an excellent discussion on the reasons for the floods in Brisbane and the potential solutions.  Also sorts out some of the gross misunderstandings and misstatements regarding the Wivenhoe Dam.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/stories/2011/3092031.htm
.


----------



## drsmith

Peter Costello has weighed in to the flood levy debate.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/sp...ounce-flood-levy/story-e6frf8zx-1225994535484

He obviously feels his former colleagues need a little help.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

trainspotter said:


> 1) Why don't they use the leftover money from the Pink Batt Fiasco?
> 2) What about the money put aside for the "Cash for Clunkers" program?
> 3) Why not use some of the money from the 30% Health Takeover GST system?
> 4) Use some of the RSPT money to cover costs?
> 5) The BER still has money left in the slush fund?
> 6) I won't go on as it will get boring.
> 7) Just one more - the NBN pool of money could be used !!!
> 8) Can't stop now ....... what about the 900 million they took out of Medibank Private to prop up the budget??
> 9) No seriously ........ no more ..... OK !!
> 10) I shall not mention the ETS backflip. What about the money set aside for this catastrophe?
> 
> Ooopsies ...... none of these are a solution and nor is placing a levy on the taxpayers to pay for a natural disaster. That is what insurance companies are for. Tighten the legislation surrounding policies that WILL COVER flood damage. IMO




You've taken the words out of my mouth TS. Well summarised.

gg


----------



## Intrinsic Value

Another tax is really beyond the pale.

What the Gillard government should really be looking at is cutting back on the middle class welfare that was brought in during the Howard years.

It is unsustainable in the long term and sooner or later it needs to be reined in.

I wouldn't have any objection to paying a one off levy if I thought that our governments and i am including both the major parties here have managed our finances well.

Unfortunately the track record of both major parites is a litany of wastage.


----------



## Calliope

A letter in _The Australian_ today works it out. And the poor little pets thought they got the jobs on their merits.



> JOAN Kirner, Carmen Lawrence, Anna Bligh, Kristina Keneally, Julia Gillard and now Lara Giddings.
> 
> Excepting the deposed Kevin Rudd, the resignation of David Bartlett on the lamentably predictable excuse of wanting more time with his young family continues an unworthy Labor tradition of gutless male politicians -- their egos inversely proportional to their ticker -- leaving women to face the cacophonous electoral music.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> A letter in _The Australian_ today works it out. And the poor little pets thought they got the jobs on their merits.




Well, our Jooyla ain't travelling too well ATM. Things will certainly get heated in Canberra in the coming months. How long can our fearless leader last after reading the link from the Courier Mail.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/pm-going-flat-as-rudd-reinvigorates/story-e6freon6-1225994075706


----------



## sails

noco said:


> Well, our Jooyla ain't travelling too well ATM. Things will certainly get heated in Canberra in the coming months. How long can our fearless leader last after reading the link from the Courier Mail.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/pm-going-flat-as-rudd-reinvigorates/story-e6freon6-1225994075706




Thanks for the link, Noco.  I remember an article some time ago that Rob Oakeshott has stated that he would remove his support should there be a leadership challenge to Gillard.  Will see if I can find it.

If he pulled his support, labor would then need Katter to take his place.  Although he clearly supports Rudd, I don't know that his electorate would be so pleased.  Katter has expressed his views on the three amigos which I think has been posted before.  Here is the link anyway: Bob Katter reveals three amigos schism


----------



## sails

sails said:


> I remember an article some time ago that Rob Oakeshott has stated he would remove his support should there be a leadership challenge to Gillard.  Will see if I can find it.




Here it is:  Gillard removal a deal breaker: Oakeshott 

At least, that's what he said on the 3rd Dec last year.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Well, our Jooyla ain't travelling too well ATM. Things will certainly get heated in Canberra in the coming months. How long can our fearless leader last after reading the link from the Courier Mail.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/pm-going-flat-as-rudd-reinvigorates/story-e6freon6-1225994075706



That's a pretty fanciful article in the Courier Mail imo.  Ms Gillard is certainly failing dismally as PM but I don't think too many would see a solution in a Rudd/Plibersek ticket.
Much as I detest Ms Gillard, I detest K.Rudd more.

If they get rid of Gillard, I reckon there would be more advantage in going for Chris Bowen with maybe Greg Combet.  Toss Swan at the same time as Gillard.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Calliope said:


> There are suggestions it will be added to the Medicare levy



I heard on the news a special Medicare Levy this year of 2%. For me it' s good bye to JG in the next election. Taking money from people without asking is dam rude.  No doubt there is a scheme to make "tough choices" elsewhere to "bring the budget to surplus" in 2012-13


----------



## Logique

Intrinsic Value said:


> Another tax is really beyond the pale.
> What the Gillard government should really be looking at is cutting back on the middle class welfare that was brought in during the Howard years.
> It is unsustainable in the long term and sooner or later it needs to be reined in........



He he. 

IV, you're not suggesting that the Golden Children of social welfare, the 'Working Families' should suffer the slightest inconvenience? 

In particular, the 18 weeks of sit-down money (un means tested) will be the last, the very last budget to be cut, or even reviewed. This is despite the fact that, after a 180 degree turn, we now believe in a Sustainable Australia. 

And in fairness, Tony Abbott's proposed scheme is ultimately even more of a gouge on taxpayers, if enacted via a more indirect pathway.

But both sides of politics had better keep their hands off the 30% private health insurance rebate (if they want my vote that is).


----------



## pedalofogus

Another tax for just about every Australian, and the 'effective tax rate' being paid by Australians continues to edge higher.  Rather than cutting back on spending and welfare payments being handed out to random people.

How long until Julia Gillard gets her ultimate wish of the effective tax rate being 100%, and Australia becomes the communist state that she has been waiting for.


----------



## moXJO

What is the '$5 billion' they supposedly have for?


----------



## drsmith

Is this the start of open warfare between the RBA and the government ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...warwick-mckibbin/story-fn59niix-1225995128027


----------



## Julia

Which $5 billion is that?


----------



## Wysiwyg

> Rather than cutting back on spending and welfare payments being handed out to random people.



You can bet the dopey so n so's will build the same namby pamby stuff in the same place before the river destroyed it. The slogan will be "bigger and better" ($$$). Some people are as thick as two planks.  

Rebuild the essentials, do the massive rubbish clean up and then build the namby pamby stuff at local government expense.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Is this the start of open warfare between the RBA and the government ?
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...warwick-mckibbin/story-fn59niix-1225995128027




The RBA are certainly open with their criticism of the Gillard Government. Any way it has to be passed by both houses and if the senate rejects it twice, I dare our Joolya to go to a double dissolution.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> ...I dare our Joolya to go to a double dissolution.




lol Noco - I don't think she would be game.  But we can only hope for a DD at some stage to clean out the senate as well...


----------



## joea

Hi.
Well, I think we are going to have to wait until the NSW state election, to see the %swing against the state government. If there is a big swing, then we will see a small crack in the Federal Great Wall.
Also it will be interesting to see how 'Rob" reacts.
One would assume he still wants to be a politican.
Because no employer would put up with the "b**ls**t that he can churn out.

Golly gosh a thought came to me#### (garbage run).
Cheers


----------



## Intrinsic Value

Unfortunately in Australia a change of government will not really make much difference.

Both the major parties are guilty of overspending, blatant pork barrelling, pandering to special interest groups, short term planning and general irresponsible fiscal policies.

You are either deluded, naive or too young to know any better, if you think that a change of government will stop this rapacious tax grab of all levels of government in Australia.

Most people would be quite happy to pay a one off levy in a situation like we have today with the QLD flood IF there hadn't been such a litany of mismanagement of taxpayers funds going back many years. 

Of course those that complain about a new tax will be labelled unpatriotic,uncaring and uncompassionate but really given the track records of governments around Australia most people have little goodwill left  when it comes to another tax grab nonwithstanding that it is for a very good cause.


----------



## joea

No I am not too young, but I know that there was a sustancial surplus in 2007.
You can kick **** out of  all the government that you like.
Hello we have to have sombody.!!!!
I think we have to have the best of the bad lot. Thats not Gillard.
Cheers.


----------



## joea

Actually i have spent considerable time  trying to work out who 
Wayne Swan is. Curly,  Larry or Moe or better still somebody off this planet.

Over and out.


----------



## Intrinsic Value

joea said:


> No I am not too young, but I know that there was a sustancial surplus in 2007.
> You can kick **** out of  all the government that you like.
> Hello we have to have sombody.!!!!
> I think we have to have the best of the bad lot. Thats not Gillard.
> Cheers.




The surplus should have been a lot bigger if Howard et al hadn't wasted billions on middle class welfare payments.

And you can hardly blame the present administration for the GFC.

That is not to say that the Gillard government haven't managed to mismanage the economy and failed to curb the excesses of government spending.

However until we get someone in either of the major parties who wants to really and genuinely commit to smaller government then we are in for more of the same regardless of who wins office.

Unfortunately for the Liberal Party the best person for the treasurers job, Costello is no longer available.

And I can hardly be enthused at the prospect of Abbott and Hockey running the economy.


----------



## drsmith

Intrinsic Value said:


> And I can hardly be enthused at the prospect of Abbott and Hockey running the economy.



Indeed!

O'l Pete's had to chip in with criticism of the flood levy to give them a hand.


----------



## Mofra

Intrinsic Value said:


> Unfortunately in Australia a change of government will not really make much difference.
> 
> Both the major parties are guilty of overspending, blatant pork barrelling, pandering to special interest groups, short term planning and general irresponsible fiscal policies.
> 
> You are either deluded, naive or too young to know any better, if you think that a change of government will stop this rapacious tax grab of all levels of government in Australia.
> 
> Most people would be quite happy to pay a one off levy in a situation like we have today with the QLD flood IF there hadn't been such a litany of mismanagement of taxpayers funds going back many years.
> 
> Of course those that complain about a new tax will be labelled unpatriotic,uncaring and uncompassionate but really given the track records of governments around Australia most people have little goodwill left  when it comes to another tax grab nonwithstanding that it is for a very good cause.



Bingo. Abbott was more indulgent with his pork barrelling to the independants that Labor as, yet people think there would have been a significant difference. The only difference is that Labor has hypocrites on the front bench & in the senate, whilst the Libs elected one as leader.

The public servants who run program delivery are the same people regardless of who wins office, which makes the slavish devotion to one side of politics over the other baffling.


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> Bingo. Abbott was more indulgent with his pork barrelling to the independants that Labor as, yet people think there would have been a significant difference. The only difference is that Labor has hypocrites on the front bench & in the senate, whilst the Libs elected one as leader.....




Hmmm - is there a wiff of an election coming up?  Suddenly Abbott is being targeted as a terrible person and seems to happen when lefties are in campaign mode...

Or is it just another mirage...


----------



## Mofra

sails said:


> Hmmm - is there a wiff of an election coming up?  Suddenly Abbott is being targeted as a terrible person and seems to happen when lefties are in campaign mode...
> 
> Or is it just another mirage...



I don't vote for either party and have criticised both, so I'm not sure pointing out hypocrasy is campaigning for anyone - Abbott's record is a pretty plain to see. 
I understand only one side of politics is allowed to be criticised on ASF, but surely if Garratt can be (rightly) derided for backflips and hypocrasy, why should Abbott be exempt?


----------



## sails

Mofra said:


> I don't vote for either party and have criticised both, so I'm not sure pointing out hypocrasy is campaigning for anyone - Abbott's record is a pretty plain to see.
> I understand only one side of politics is allowed to be criticised on ASF, but surely if Garratt can be (rightly) derided for backflips and hypocrasy, why should Abbott be exempt?




Sorry, Mofra.  It was a bit of tongue in cheek...

Of course, no politician will ever be perfect and all have their share of mistakes.  However, it is my view that the Rudd and now Gillard government have been somewhat astounding in their lack of ability to govern effectively.  And that's not specifically an anti-labor statement.  If they were libs, I would be just as appalled. While Hawke and Keating weren't perfect either, they did provide much better leadership for Australia than what we have seen from labor since 2007, IMO.


----------



## Logique

The Greens are too canny to allow themselves to be wedged. But it will be interesting to watch them as the flood levy bill goes through parliament. 

From: *Gillard hits rough water on flood levy* 
Friday, January 28, 2011
http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top...rd_hits_rough_water_on_flood_levy_570160.html



> '..Environmentalists have been put offside by cuts to climate-friendly programs..'




And this very telling response, when put under pressure in an interview, what did the PM come up with: 







> '...Ms Gillard lost her cool in one combative radio interview on Friday, angrily rejecting suggestions the $5.6 billion flood recovery money might be misspent.
> ...You don't need to patronise me, thank you very much,' she told 3AW's Neil Mitchell, after he told her Australians would not accept any waste and mismanagement...'


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Logique said:


> From: *Gillard hits rough water on flood levy*
> Friday, January 28, 2011
> http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top...rd_hits_rough_water_on_flood_levy_570160.html
> :




Mate, she hasn't hit rough water, she's completely underwater. The only people supporting her now are nailed on Labor supporters.

Swinging voters like me will toss her out if the greens do not do so, before the next election is due.

gg


----------



## drsmith

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Mate, she hasn't hit rough water, she's completely underwater. The only people supporting her now are nailed on Labor supporters.



The following is a somewhat frank assessment of the ALP's climate policy changes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/28/3124315.htm?site=thedrum

If she succeeds, her Green bed partners will have still got an extra tax on the better off (flood levy) and a carbon tax.

As Meatloaf would say, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.


----------



## bigdog

YOU'VE GOT TO LOVE THIS FARMER'S OUTLOOK ......





While suturing up a cut on the hand of a 75 year old farmer, whose hand had been caught in the gate while working his cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man.

Eventually the topic got around to Julia Gillard, and her being our prime minister.

The  old farmer said, "Well, ya know, Julia is just a Post Tortoise."

Now not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked,

What's a "Post Tortoise?"

The old farmer said, "When you're driving down a  country road and you come across a fence post with a Tortoise balanced on top, that's a post Tortoise."

The old farmer saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain.

"You know she didn't get up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, she doesn't know what to do while she's up there, she sure as hell isn't goin' anywhere, and you just wonder what kind of dumb bastard put her up there in the first place."


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

bigdog said:


> YOU'VE GOT TO LOVE THIS FARMER'S OUTLOOK ......
> 
> View attachment 41132
> 
> 
> While suturing up a cut on the hand of a 75 year old farmer, whose hand had been caught in the gate while working his cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man.
> 
> Eventually the topic got around to Julia Gillard, and her being our prime minister.
> 
> The  old farmer said, "Well, ya know, Julia is just a Post Tortoise."
> 
> Now not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked,
> 
> What's a "Post Tortoise?"
> 
> The old farmer said, "When you're driving down a  country road and you come across a fence post with a Tortoise balanced on top, that's a post Tortoise."
> 
> The old farmer saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain.
> 
> "You know she didn't get up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, she doesn't know what to do while she's up there, she sure as hell isn't goin' anywhere, and you just wonder what kind of dumb bastard put her up there in the first place."




Best laugh I've had for some time, old farmers know a thing or two about mysteries.

gg


----------



## Logique

Four Corners tonight is a bio of Julia Gillard, and afterwards Q&A returns with Graham Richardson, Amanda Vanstone, Catherine Deveny and Gerard Henderson.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Four Corners tonight is a bio of Julia Gillard, and afterwards Q&A returns with Graham Richardson, Amanda Vanstone, Catherine Deveny and Gerard Henderson.




Maybe the bio of Julia Gillard is to try and repair her falling polls:

From the Australian: Labor and Julia Gillard stuck in reverse

Emotional stunts are becomming a pattern, IMO.  As soon as Ms Gillard doesn't get what she wants, she (and her fans) start working on the emotions.  

Such as the levy being only "a cup of coffee" to make people feel guilty (including Abbott) when the real reason people are opposing are the the following facts:

1.  Disaster relief should be part of taxes already paid
2.  Instead our taxes have been used for overseas aid and now there's nothing left (unless its for something the government wants such as NBN, overseas aid, etc.
3.  Many don't trust this government to manage the levy efficiently
4.  There are concerns that it will become a permanent thing to enable this government to continue is apparent compulsive spending habit.

Prior to Julia Gillard being elected, it seemed that the main approach was to work on the emotions of other women that she was to be the first female prime minister.  I felt that the Womens Weekly thing was all part of that emotional campaign.

Calling Mr Abbott a "wrecker" when he is simply doing his job of opposing in opposition is nothing more than another emotional stunt, IMO.

When a government has to resort to emotional stunts to get what they want it, I feel it shows that there is very little substance in their policies or their ability to govern. 

Even on the labor side of Hawke and Keating, I don't remember this level of emotional pressure being put on the electorate.  To me, it's taking advantage of the goodness of most Australians and she doesn't fool me and many of the people I know with these unrealistic emotional stunts.


----------



## drsmith

> Speculation is mounting that the government is considering welfare cuts to pay for disaster reconstruction, including cuts to the education tax rebate and family tax benefits.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ith-welfare-cuts/story-fn59nsif-1226001304287

If we are allready down to increased taxes and this during a resources boom, well, it's a worry.

History, I suspect, will judge the fiscal mismanagement of the latter years of the Howard government and Labor since coming to office harshly.


----------



## Mofra

Will the welfare cuts target the middle-class welfare rorts inherited from the Howard government? Welfare should be for the needy, not the greedy.


----------



## Calliope

Mofra said:


> Will the welfare cuts target the middle-class welfare rorts inherited from the Howard government? Welfare should be for the needy, not the greedy.




You were critical of me recently for making a generalisation, and now you are assuming that middle-class people are greedy.


----------



## Julia

Scathing article by Phillip Adams about Julia Gillard.  Obviously he will have some bias given he regards K. Rudd as a friend, to the extent he relinquished his long held membership of the Labor Party when Rudd was dumped, but even so, if he's right, then there are plenty of knives out for Ms Gillard within her own party.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-turn-on-gillard/story-e6frg7fx-1225998053845


----------



## Logique

Didn't mince his words did he. 

Today Julia Gillard was the most emotional I've ever seen from her during Question time, while talking about the flood victims. It should appear on news and 7:30 Report tonight.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Didn't mince his words did he.
> 
> Today Julia Gillard was the most emotional I've ever seen from her during Question time, while talking about the flood victims. It should appear on news and 7:30 Report tonight.




After her stony appearances next to Anna Bligh during the Qld floods, is this another emotional stunt or for real?  I guess we will only be left to wonder especially with the number of Julia's that have appeared in a very short space of time.  

She has also acknowledged now that BER was a bungle and has promised no further bungles.

No more bungles, the PM insists



> Gillard conceded yesterday she had learnt a lesson from bungled programs in the past - including the lack of value in her own $16.2 billion school halls program - and promised "value for money" in the flood reconstruction seven times in about as many minutes



.
Does Ms Gillard take the Aussie people for fools?  After all the spin to cover up the bungles, she now admits it?  Apologies to the die-hard labor supporters here, but it's very difficult not to be skeptical...


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Today Julia Gillard was the most emotional I've ever seen from her during Question time, while talking about the flood victims. It should appear on news and 7:30 Report tonight.






sails said:


> After her stony appearances next to Anna Bligh during the Qld floods, is this another emotional stunt or for real?  I guess we will only be left to wonder especially with the number of Julia's that have appeared in a very short space of time.



Anyone who saw Ms Gillard's tearful performance as genuine is very naive.
She went through all the personal contact with flood victims in her various tours in the areas affected and remained her usual robotic self throughout.

Then we have multiple media comments about how wooden she is, and whacko, out come the tears in parliament today.

Utter rubbish.  I don't buy it for a millisecond.


----------



## Sean K

Julia said:


> Anyone who saw Ms Gillard's tearful performance as genuine is very naive.
> She went through all the personal contact with flood victims in her various tours in the areas affected and remained her usual robotic self throughout.
> 
> Then we have multiple media comments about how wooden she is, and whacko, out come the tears in parliament today.
> 
> Utter rubbish.  I don't buy it for a millisecond.



The only thing not robotic of her performance during the floods was her cheesy grin while describing how terrible it all was. I think she was happy about it...

How did this woman become our leader?


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Anyone who saw Ms Gillard's tearful performance as genuine is very naive.
> She went through all the personal contact with flood victims in her various tours in the areas affected and remained her usual robotic self throughout.
> 
> Then we have multiple media comments about how wooden she is, and whacko, out come the tears in parliament today.
> 
> Utter rubbish.  I don't buy it for a millisecond.




Yes, it was a good act! I wonder who put her up to it? This woman is soooo desperate to win back popularity.


----------



## drsmith

If the following is true, then the "so called" greatest moral challenge of all time has just become the greatest election caimpaign lie of all time.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...year-ets-in-2015/story-e6frg6xf-1226004719022

Hopefully, someone in the Liberal Party will take a few moments to put down their knife and go through the video footage and transcripts of the 7:30 Report from the last week of the 2010 election campaign, inparticular, an interview between Kerry O-Brian and Wayne Swan.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> Hopefully, someone in the Liberal Party will take a few moments to put down their knife and go through the video footage and transcripts of the 7:30 Report from the last week of the 2010 election campaign, inparticular, an interview between Kerry O-Brian and Wayne Swan.




I've done it for them, but will they be able to read it while stalking each other in the dark, knives in hand ?



> KERRY O'BRIEN: Very briefly, address Joe Hockey's question about a carbon tax. You would say an ETS.
> 
> Is there any likelihood of a second Gillard Government introducing an Emissions Trading Scheme within your next term?
> 
> WAYNE SWAN: Kerry, We've made our position absolutely clear. I know they're running a scare campaign that a carbon tax is coming because I saw their ads in North Queensland when I was there last night.
> 
> The Prime Minister has made it very clear that we are going to go out and achieve community consensus, which was fractured by Mr Hockey and the Liberals when they voted down the ETS. That is where the ETS is, it's voted down, it's voted down. We have to go back to the community and proceed how we go from here, thanks to Mr Hockey.
> 
> KERRY O'BRIEN: Okay. Now, brief response Mr Hockey.
> 
> JOE HOCKEY: What was that? Was that yes or no? That was just... *The fundamental question is, are you going to rule out a carbon tax in the next term of the Government - yes or no?*
> 
> WAYNE SWAN: *We have made our position very clear. We have ruled it out.* We have to go back to the community and work out a way in which we can put a cap on carbon pollution.
> 
> KERRY O'BRIEN: Okay...




http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2010/s2981491.htm


----------



## sails

Here is more proof that Swan didn't mean a word he said in that interview BEFORE the election.  Aussies were well and truly deceived:

From News.com.au - today's date: 

*Carbon price will happen 'from July 2012' Prime Minister Julia Gillard says*

and then they have plans to switch this to an ETS in 3-4 years later - is this sheer arrogance or what?  Rudd and Turnbull lost their leadership positions over the ETS.  Do Gillard/Swan think they are invincible?



> After 2015 or 2016 the regime will switch to an emissions trading scheme.


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> is this sheer arrogance or what?  Rudd and Turnbull lost their leadership positions over the ETS.  Do Gillard/Swan think they are invincible?



Perhaps the only one left standing will be Bob Brown.

During the election campaign, Wayne Swan confirmed no carbon tax during this term as noted above if re-elected.

Julia Gillard less than 72 hours before the election (during the electronic media blackout) suggested a price on carbon would be legislated during this term, but not come into effect until into the following term. Slippery, but still dishonest in terms of a carbon price in 2012.

The only one that was honest during the campaign was the ALP's bed partner, Bob Brown, who said a price on carbon would be introduced this term. 

Despite all the bluster in the media about the ALP talking tough with the Greens, I would suggest the Green tail is wagging the ALP dog. 

No comparisons with the GST please, unless the ALP intend going back to the polls before introducing a carbon price.


----------



## noco

How much more imcompetence are we to see from this Gillard Government. Will she take the axe to the NBN?
Does she really know she is doing? Will we really see the new 4th Joolya in 2011?
Only time will tell but it's certainly not looking too good for our fearless leaderATM.
http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...has_any_government_failed_at_so_much_so_fast/


----------



## noco

Instead of all these new big taxes planned by Gillard and Swan where somewhere down the line we are all going to pay the unkown for goods and services affected by a CPRS, an ETS, the MRT, a flood levy and God knows what else they have in mind, why doesn't this Government raise the GTS to 15%. at least we would all know how much extra we would have to pay. 
There method of raising money is like the dreaded sales tax imposition we had endured before the GST. Previous Governments raised the Sales tax when it suited them to bring in more revenue and very few people were aware of it. It was a hidden cost added to what ever one bought. Keating raised the sales tax on motor vehicles from 20% to 25% and nobody were any the wiser. The same thing will happen with all these new taxes. You will all be none the wiser untill you realize how much the cost of living has increased.


----------



## Julia

Ii think the government cannot help but be aware of the rising anger and worry by consumers about the rapidly rising electricity prices, and they'll therefore offer significant compensation to lower income earners.

This will probably further enrage the Greens, along with the government's insistence on compensating polluting companies.  From the Greens' point of view, compensation negates the message that (according to the Greens) we must all cut our electricity consumption and get familiar with home grown cold food, candles for light, cold showers and bicycles for transport.

So there should be a few skirmishes ahead.  Could be amusing except that we will have to listen not just to Julia Gillard's droning voice, but the whining of Christine Milne.  Just can't abide that woman.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Ii think the government cannot help but be aware of the rising anger and worry by consumers about the rapidly rising electricity prices, and they'll therefore offer significant compensation to lower income earners.
> 
> This will probably further enrage the Greens, along with the government's insistence on compensating polluting companies.  From the Greens' point of view, compensation negates the message that (according to the Greens) we must all cut our electricity consumption and get familiar with home grown cold food, candles for light, cold showers and bicycles for transport.
> 
> So there should be a few skirmishes ahead.  Could be amusing except that we will have to listen not just to Julia Gillard's droning voice, but the whining of Christine Milne.  Just can't abide that woman.




What an entangled web we see starting to unfold. New taxes and increased taxes together with compensation paid out those affected. It all has to be administed by bureaucrats at a cost to the tax payer. Why can't this Gillard Government keep it simple?


----------



## todster

They succeeded in getting everyone to give up the fags so now they need to get the money elsewhere.


----------



## -Bevo-

*Retailers brace for bonanza*
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/02/12/207201_news.html

Went to centrelink the other day to collect the free 1000 bucks because I lost power for more than 48 hrs due to Yasi, I can say now I totally understand why this government needs more taxes, here in Townsville I think that there would be few people that faced hardship due to Yasi yet this government were just throwing money around like it means nothing most people I know couldn't believe they just recieved that amount of money for what was really a small inconvenience, I reckon flatscreen TV's, iphone's and other popular gadgets sales will do well here over the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

She is a mullet wearing Dalek.

gg


----------



## sails

todster said:


> They succeeded in getting everyone to give up the fags so now they need to get the money elsewhere.




Oh todster, how very naive...

The reality is that some may have given up due to cost, some may have given up and then started again, but I suspect very few actually gave up.

The thing is, as with all drugs, people will use them whatever the cost.  They will go without other things. So, the government have all that extra tax on EVERY box of fags.

What are they doing with all the money they already get in revenue?  Something like $350 billion per annum...

Just some basic budgeting would help instead of throwing money away as Bevo has pointed out in Townsville.  To get $1000 just because you lost power is rather silly when infrastructure is desperately neeing to be fixed from the floods.  And I suppose people who have insurance for power loss to freezers pick up insurance funds as well as the $1000?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Too right with the extended family having handed me their keycards, I'm sitting on $20,400.

Hpw do I spend this?

And more importantly who to I vote for??

An idiot ALP Guvment who increase my bottom line, OR

A Party The Liberals, with vision who are a bit flakey?

gg


----------



## Calliope

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And more importantly who to I vote for??
> 
> An idiot ALP Guvment who increase my bottom line, OR
> 
> A Party The Liberals, with vision who are a bit flakey?
> 
> gg




Naturally you will vote for whoever dishes out hard earned taxpayer's money willy-nilly to the improvident and the undeserving.

That's why we elected Gough Whitlam in 1972. His win was boosted of course by the Liberals having an ineffective leader in McMahon.

Personally I would vote for the party that would cut out the baby bonus, first home owner's grants and middle class welfare, and use the money saved to cease taxation on interest paid on money in the bank, and term deposits.


----------



## IFocus

-Bevo- said:


> *Retailers brace for bonanza*
> http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/02/12/207201_news.html
> 
> Went to centrelink the other day to collect the free 1000 bucks because I lost power for more than 48 hrs due to Yasi, I can say now I totally understand why this government needs more taxes, here in Townsville I think that there would be few people that faced hardship due to Yasi yet this government were just throwing money around like it means nothing most people I know couldn't believe they just recieved that amount of money for what was really a small inconvenience, I reckon flatscreen TV's, iphone's and other popular gadgets sales will do well here over the next couple of weeks.




Over on the levy thread there were screams about how all the money had gone and the government were not helping...............


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Over on the levy thread there were screams about how all the money had gone and the government were not helping...............




You call that help? It's the usual Gillard handout to the wrong people. Not only did GG and Bevo get money they didn't deserve, they are excused from paying the levy. Wouldn't you say that's worth a scream or two?


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> It's the usual Gillard handout to the wrong people.



I suppose when a government feels it can raise taxes at will, it does not have to concern itself about how well targeted its spending is.


----------



## trainspotter

Meanwhile back onto Health Reform:

*“Julia Gillard is so desperate to have any kind of win that she is prepared to abandon reform of the health sector just so that she can get something off the agenda.”*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-tells-premiers/story-fn59nokw-1226005214071

Ms Gillard *has backed away *from a push for the Commonwealth to become the dominant funder of the health system and instead has put forward a plan to set up a national health funding pool. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/13/3137425.htm?section=justin

One casualty of the GST climbdown is the federal government having to *drop its promise to fund 100 per cent *of all out-of-hospital GP and primary care services.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/gillard-backs-down-to-secure-health-reform-20110211-1aqjm.html

Oh dear ! More backflips then than an Olympic 3 metre springboard diving competition.


----------



## Julia

Given the comments from Anna Bligh and the new Tasmanian Premier to the effect that they will not be quick to sign anything, Ms Gillard may find herself doing even more backflips.  Observations from various health professionals note that it shouldn't be termed 'health reforms' because it's so far all about money, with no apparent benefit to either doctors or patients.

Sigh.


----------



## sails

-Bevo- said:


> *Retailers brace for bonanza*
> http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/02/12/207201_news.html
> 
> Went to centrelink the other day to collect the free 1000 bucks because I lost power for more than 48 hrs due to Yasi, I can say now I totally understand why this government needs more taxes, here in Townsville I think that there would be few people that faced hardship due to Yasi yet this government were just throwing money around like it means nothing most people I know couldn't believe they just recieved that amount of money for what was really a small inconvenience, I reckon flatscreen TV's, iphone's and other popular gadgets sales will do well here over the next couple of weeks.




We know of a guy that is on and off  the dole quite frequently, but was so excited to get his $1000.  I don't think there was any damage but money has all been spent.  He is sporting a new phone and goodness knows what else...

It's lovely when santa comes with a $1000 gift card, but it seems that this government is either being too stingy with means testing or way too flippant in throwing money out the window regardless of whether or not it is paying for damage.

If only they could find the middle road of practicality and some budget skills.  But it looks like that is asking too much of this lot...


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Given the comments from Anna Bligh and the new Tasmanian Premier to the effect that they will not be quick to sign anything, Ms Gillard may find herself doing even more backflips.  Observations from various health professionals note that it shouldn't be termed 'health reforms' because it's so far all about money, with no apparent benefit to either doctors or patients.
> 
> Sigh.




Julia, agree and it all seems to be about the money. In the Sunday Mail today there are noises about increasing tax on LPG to 15% by 2015.  So, they give with one hand to get people on to it, then get the money back with increased taxes on it...

I'm still convinced that carbon tax/ETS is nothing more than the money.

While it looks like NBN is being rolled out for our benefit, history would say that it will be another form of tax or some sort of revenue raising down the track.

Is there anything labor does that isn't about the money?


----------



## drsmith

If the house of Liberal can put the knives away long enough to remember that it's about winning government from Labor and not about phantom budget cuts, the following about Julia Gillard's position on a carbon tax during the election campaign should offer plenty of fodder.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/election2010/7945914/pm-says-no-carbon-tax-under-her-govt


----------



## sails

This Newspoll from the Australian is showing labor well behind on primary votes and falling on the two party preferred.  2PP was based on prefenence flow at the last election which may be very different if the libs put the greens last as they did in Vic:


PRIMARY VOTE+ *COALITION LABOR* GREENS OTHERS
Newspoll 4-6 February 2011* *44 32 *14 10

TWO PARTY PREFERRED+
Based on preference flow at August 2010 Federal election *COALITION LABOR*
Newspoll 4-6 February 2011 *52 48*


More info here: http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads
/110202%20Fed%20Voting%20Intention%20&%20Leaders%20Ratings.pdf


----------



## Logique

Patrick Cook is a wicked satirist. Listen all the way through, it grows increasingly hilarious. Abbott, Gillard, Flannery, nobody escapes.

Link to the .mp3 at http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2011/02/cpt_20110214_1633.mp3  -on 14 Feb, file is 1.87MB, runs 4mins.

The link to the ABC Counterpoint page where I found the .mp3 is:   http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/


----------



## Julia

Thanks Logique.   So funny, especially the bit about Flannery.

The Prime Minister's sojourn in NZ seems to have gone down well all round.
She seems to quite quickly gain some traction when the opposition is in a bit of trouble.  She also appears to have picked up her speaking speed a bit and is not droning so badly.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> Patrick Cook is a wicked satirist. Listen all the way through, it grows increasingly hilarious. Abbott, Gillard, Flannery, nobody escapes.
> 
> Link to the .mp3 at http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2011/02/cpt_20110214_1633.mp3  -on 14 Feb, file is 1.87MB, runs 4mins.
> 
> The link to the ABC Counterpoint page where I found the .mp3 is:   http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/




Yeah Logidue, good stuff. Laughed my head off!


----------



## Logique

Logique said:


> The Greens are too canny to allow themselves to be wedged. But it will be interesting to watch them as the flood levy bill goes through parliament.
> From: *Gillard hits rough water on flood levy*
> Friday, January 28, 2011
> http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top...rd_hits_rough_water_on_flood_levy_570160.html



Well now we have our answer, and it is Greens hypocrisy writ large. 

Even Fran Kelly seemed terse during the interview with Bob Brown this morning, he clearly expected the usual soft-focus glad handing from 8c a day. Where else would we raise the $100M said Fran. Take more money off the polluting coal industry said Bob. Coal being the latest 'boogey man' to scare people into the moral purity of Greens policy.

Of the expected $1.8B flood levy receipts, 5.5% of this ($100M) is to be skimmed off by the Greens for Christine Milne's solar flagships program and a reduction in the rental for disadvantaged program. This after giving the Coalition a kicking for suggesting the levy was the wrong mechanism.

That's right flood victims, low-incomers struggling with the rent, and everyone struggling to pay the electricity bill. To the Greens it's more important to put solar panels in the desert. To make electricity more expensive.

How much did all the Premers' Flood Appeals raise, was it $100M? I doubt it.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Well now we have our answer, and it is Greens hypocrisy writ large.
> 
> Even Fran Kelly seemed terse during the interview with Bob Brown this morning, he clearly expected the usual soft-focus glad handing from 8c a day. Where else would we raise the $100M said Fran. Take more money off the polluting coal industry said Bob. Coal being the latest 'boogey man' to scare people into the moral purity of Greens policy.
> 
> Of the expected $1.8B flood levy receipts, 5.5% of this ($100M) is to be skimmed off by the Greens for Christine Milne's solar flagships program and a reduction in the rental for disadvantaged program. This after giving the Coalition a kicking for suggesting the levy was the wrong mechanism.
> 
> That's right flood victims, low-incomers struggling with the rent, and everyone struggling to pay the electricity bill. To the Greens it's more important to put solar panels in the desert. To make electricity more expensive.
> 
> How much did all the Premers' Flood Appeals raise, was it $100M? I doubt it.



I missed the interview.  Do you mean they are going ahead with reducing the funds available for the rental for the disadvantaged program?   If so, that just disgusts me.
Bloody Greens should all be shot.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Well now we have our answer, and it is Greens hypocrisy writ large.




 Logique, I agree and expressed my frustration early this morning in a post on the levy thread.  It seems Ms Gillard has "bought" this green vote at further taxpayers expense...grrrr

If this levy goes ahead, we can only hope it will be a landslide demise of labor federally at the next election as many are tiring of the Rudd and now Gillard shenanigans.  If it stops this nonsense, it will absolutely be worth the cup of coffee a week.

$1.8B isn't a lot of money for the government to find.  I would think they spill more than this every year on whatever they feel like.  This is not about the money - this government could find that money without hurting people.  The threats about funding cuts where it will hurt, IMO are simply efforts to coerce us into acceptance.

The opposition to this levy is NOT about being uncaring, it's plainly unnecessary and is below the belt to use emotion in an effort to coerce Aussies into accepting an unnecessary tax to further Ms Gillard's seemingly personal achievements.  She must think we are a pretty dumb lot.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> I missed the interview.  Do you mean they are going ahead with reducing the funds available for the rental for the disadvantaged program?   If so, that just disgusts me.
> Bloody Greens should all be shot.




Julia, it seems to be the reverse with funds being re-instated for national rent affordability.  Here a the lateline transcript:  http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3141957.htm




> In return for the restoration of $100 million in solar schemes and the reinstatement of a national rent affordability scheme, the Greens have thrown their support behind the levy.




I have no problem with rent affordability being reinstated, but it's the way it's done by "buying" votes that annoys me.  It seems that "whatever it takes" will be thrown at this levy.

Oakeshott, Windsor, Wilke are apparently still to make up their minds.  Hmmmm wonder what that will cost the taxpayer...


----------



## Julia

Thanks, Sails.  Wilkie, according to radio news today, has decided to back the levy.
Nick Xenophon is still holding out for making Qld take out disaster insurance a condition of his support.  This seems very reasonable.
I hadn't realised Qld had no insurance.  The other States and Territories do.  So effectively the rest of Australia is subsidising Qld's lack of proper management which is just wrong.


----------



## Knobby22

sails said:


> Julia, it seems to be the reverse with funds being re-instated for national rent affordability.  Here a the lateline transcript:  http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3141957.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no problem with rent affordability being reinstated, but it's the way it's done by "buying" votes that annoys me.  It seems that "whatever it takes" will be thrown at this levy.
> 
> Oakeshott, Windsor, Wilke are apparently still to make up their minds.  Hmmmm wonder what that will cost the taxpayer...





The greens didn't want the rent affordability scheme slashed so they gave their vote on that condition. I see nothing wrong with that. It is called democracy.

It could have just as easily been the Liberals demanding a change so it would get their support.


----------



## Logique

You are right Sails and Knobby, 
and I apologize to the Greens for misrepresenting their position on the National Rental Affordability Scheme, which they in fact defended from cuts.  http://www.northernstar.com.au/story/2011/02/18/greens-to-support-flood-levy/

However it's still $100M of solar: 







> Senator Brown said $100 million would be returned to the solar flagships program, with $60 million for the current program and $40 million from the 2014/15 financial year.
> "The rest of the program will then be funded after the forward estimates," he said.



And there is a deferral of National RAS funding until 2015:







> The $264 million cut to the National Rental Affordability Scheme had been restored but the funds had been deferred until after 2015 so the industry could get the program back on track, Greens housing spokesman Senator Ludlam said.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> The greens didn't want the rent affordability scheme slashed so they gave their vote on that condition. I see nothing wrong with that. It is called democracy.
> 
> It could have just as easily been the Liberals demanding a change so it would get their support.




Everyone seems to have forgotten a bloke called Brian Harradine and how much he cost the Howard government each time his vote was required.


----------



## Julia

> The $264 million cut to the National Rental Affordability Scheme had been restored but the funds had been deferred until after 2015 so the industry could get the program back on track, Greens housing spokesman Senator Ludlam said.



What???  Why on earth would it take until 2015 to 'get the program back on track'.
What utter rubbish.
Clearly this is part of the deal done with the government.


----------



## Calliope

Paul Howes, national secretary of the AWU who is 29 years old, started work for the union at 17, and has never had a real job in his life, is part of the cabal which selects our Labor PM.

Now this clown, drunk with unearned power, has decided to declare a class war against the big mining companies which are the backbone of Australia's economy. In this stupidity he and his boss Bill Ludwig have the support and encouragement of Mr Swan, our treasurer and deputy PM. 

And yet the national press gallery, and the usual suspects on this forum are more interested in finding fault with the opposition.:dunno:


----------



## -Bevo-

-Bevo- said:


> *Retailers brace for bonanza*
> http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/02/12/207201_news.html
> 
> Went to centrelink the other day to collect the free 1000 bucks because I lost power for more than 48 hrs due to Yasi, I can say now I totally understand why this government needs more taxes, here in Townsville I think that there would be few people that faced hardship due to Yasi yet this government were just throwing money around like it means nothing most people I know couldn't believe they just recieved that amount of money for what was really a small inconvenience, I reckon flatscreen TV's, iphone's and other popular gadgets sales will do well here over the next couple of weeks.




Well just an update on this as it has become even more bizzare, there were a number of people who didn't loose power for more than 48 hours they are not happy when they see family and friends with free 1000 bucks lol so on the application form there is another box which says "_a person is stranded in their principal place of residence for a period of 24 hours or more_" so now everyone else apparently is claiming they couldn't leave home for more than 24 hours and get the 1000 bucks too lol, wonder if centrelink is going to follow up on these claims.


----------



## Julia

-Bevo- said:


> "_a person is stranded in their principal place of residence for a period of 24 hours or more_" so now everyone else apparently is claiming they couldn't leave home for more than 24 hours and get the 1000 bucks too lol, wonder if centrelink is going to follow up on these claims.



Well, whacko, I hardly think there'd be a person in all of Queensland, maybe parts of NSW and Victoria also, who were not confined to their homes at the height of the downpour.
That is just utterly ridiculous to be offering $1000 in such a circumstance.

Every time I think this government has pushed the bounds of credibility to the ultimate, they manage to come up with yet another way to waste taxpayer funds.


----------



## joea

For some reason the Labor goverments believe if they waste money to the public,
then the public will spend it. Labor supporters I have interaction with, sincerely think debt is good. They believe that the economy will move upwards from there.
For instance as our country is suffering, and trying to recover from floods, cyclones and 
Rudd implemented programs you will see Labor backed unions pushing for wage increases.

Or better still Paul Howes starts talking war with miners.

Gee! the media loved Labor coming into the 2007 election, and the love affair continues.

Cheers


----------



## Knobby22

-Bevo- said:


> Well just an update on this as it has become even more bizzare, there were a number of people who didn't loose power for more than 48 hours they are not happy when they see family and friends with free 1000 bucks lol so on the application form there is another box which says "_a person is stranded in their principal place of residence for a period of 24 hours or more_" so now everyone else apparently is claiming they couldn't leave home for more than 24 hours and get the 1000 bucks too lol, wonder if centrelink is going to follow up on these claims.




Unbelievable!!
I hope they have defined stranded as being unable to leave because the whole area was flooded so every man and his dog doesn't get it. Even so, I agree, what is wrong with people living with some discomfort with being financially awarded? What if it happens again next year?  Stupid.


----------



## todster

Knobby22 said:


> Unbelievable!!
> I hope they have defined stranded as being unable to leave because the whole area was flooded so every man and his dog doesn't get it. Even so, I agree, what is wrong with people living with some discomfort with being financially awarded? What if it happens again next year?  Stupid.




And then the people on ASF who missed out on the 1k handout have a whinge too


----------



## trainspotter

And here is the link ....... http://www.kinections.com.au/Flood_Response/Financial_Assistance.aspx

C'mon you know you want to make a claim ....... don't you ?

As of 18 February 2011, the population of Queensland is an estimated 4,574,331

Lets say that 50% are adults and 50% are children so therefore:

2,287,165 x $1000 (adults) = $2,287,165,500 (yes that is 2.287 + some BILLION DOLLARS)

2,287,166 x $400 (children) =$914,866,400 (yes that is nine hundred and fourteen million dollars + some)

SO the "possible" claim is 3.2 BILLION DOLLARS (I kept the leftover 2 million)

GOSH ......... this is becoming implausible ......... a billion here and billion there ....... pretty soon they will be talking in real money.

P.S. This is before they even begin to rebuild the infrastructure (not peoples houses)


----------



## -Bevo-

Knobby22 said:


> Unbelievable!!
> I hope they have defined stranded as being unable to leave because the whole area was flooded so every man and his dog doesn't get it. Even so, I agree, what is wrong with people living with some discomfort with being financially awarded? What if it happens again next year?  Stupid.




I can only talk about what has happened in Townsville, areas such as Tully, Cardwell, Ingham etc are different the only flooding I'm aware of was in some low lying areas due to storm surge the claim been made here for been stranded for 24 hours is from not been able to go outside or leave the house as it was unsafe to do so due to the cyclone and police had advised people to stay indoors, I went out to my parents house at 11am before Yasi hit there was alot of traffic on the roads, went out again 10 am the next morning after the winds began to die down and there was alot of traffic sight seeing around then so might not have been 24 hours but what the hell people are claiming the 1000 bucks, funny how Labor got a flogging in Queensland at the election and now are throwing money at people which in most cases is not been spent on anything to do with the cyclone its been spent on pokies, brothels, beer, holidays, flatscreen TV's and we don't have to pay flood levy either.


----------



## Knobby22

-Bevo- said:


> I can only talk about what has happened in Townsville, areas such as Tully, Cardwell, Ingham etc are different the only flooding I'm aware of was in some low lying areas due to storm surge the claim been made here for been stranded for 24 hours is from not been able to go outside or leave the house as it was unsafe to do so due to the cyclone and police had advised people to stay indoors, I went out to my parents house at 11am before Yasi hit there was alot of traffic on the roads, went out again 10 am the next morning after the winds began to die down and there was alot of traffic sight seeing around then so might not have been 24 hours but what the hell people are claiming the 1000 bucks, funny how Labor got a flogging in Queensland at the election and now are throwing money at people which in most cases is not been spent on anything to do with the cyclone its been spent on pokies, brothels, beer, holidays, flatscreen TV's and we don't have to pay flood levy either.




Thanks, well if we find that this money is given away willy nilly without checks, how can Labor expect support from the populace, especially in the other states? Maybe it is being administered properly.... it better be.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> Paul Howes, national secretary of the AWU who is 29 years old, started work for the union at 17, and has never had a real job in his life, is part of the cabal which selects our Labor PM.
> 
> Now this clown, drunk with unearned power, has decided to declare a class war against the big mining companies which are the backbone of Australia's economy. In this stupidity he and his boss Bill Ludwig have the support and encouragement of Mr Swan, our treasurer and deputy PM.
> 
> And yet the national press gallery, and the usual suspects on this forum are more interested in finding fault with the opposition.:dunno:




So is it okay to be ageist when it suits you.


----------



## Calliope

todster said:


> So is it okay to be ageist when it suits you.




This guy's stupidity has nothing to do with age, His shortcomings stem from lack of experience in life.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> This guy's stupidity has nothing to do with age, His shortcomings stem from lack of experience in life.




Sorry mate it was the bit where you mentioned that he was 29 that confused me.


----------



## Calliope

todster said:


> Sorry mate it was the bit where you mentioned that he was 29 that confused me.




I have noticed that most of your posts are criticisms of other people posts. If you have something positive to say about Paul Howes why don't you come out and and say it, instead of niggling about my posts?


----------



## trainspotter

You might have a stalker Calliope OR todster might just be trying to be friendly with his scintillating wit? Some of his riposte's are quite funny. Well I think so anyways.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> I have noticed that most of your posts are criticisms of other people posts. If you have something positive to say about Paul Howes why don't you come out and and say it, instead of niggling about my posts?




My mum used to tell all my sisters friends that if i was picking on them that really   I fancied them:


----------



## todster

todster said:


> My mum used to tell all my sisters friends that if i was picking on them that really   I fancied them:




My sister had hot friends.
We had a pool!


----------



## trainspotter

todster said:


> My sister had hot friends.
> We had a pool!




You must have done a lot of picking then todster.


----------



## todster

trainspotter said:


> You must have done a lot of picking then todster.




Lol I didn't even have to go out home delivery


----------



## nulla nulla

Calliope said:


> This guy's stupidity has nothing to do with age, His shortcomings stem from lack of experience in life.




I'm not sure who is the more stupid in this instance. Him or the silly buggers that voted for him?  Same goes for the inexperienced kid that got elected in the last election.


----------



## nulla nulla

Setting aside the obvious comments about Ms Gillard having caught the "backflip" virus, the likelihood of the Carbon Tax is now looking like a done deal (unexpected by-elections excepted). 

Personaly I think it is a stupid idea and the cost is ultimately going to be borne by the man in the street. 

The biggest tax/cost will be aimed at the coal fueled power stations. Naturaly the cost will be passed on to the consumers. If you think power prices went up recently, wait until you see the flow on effect of this tax.

The second biggest polluter tax/cost to be passed on, will be be at cars/trucks etc. I'm currious to see whether this will be passed on as a user pays tax by adding a few cents to the price of fuel or will they bang it onto the annual registration of any and every vehicle regardless of the extent the vehicle pollutes?

No wonder the NSW Labor Government was in such a hurry to unload the state owned power industry. They didn't want to/couldn't afford to pick up the infrastructure & maintance costs and probably knew the back flip tax was comming. Let it be the privatised owners carrying the bogeyman label for increased power costs.


----------



## Calliope

All Abbott has to say is that the Coalition is adopting the same carbon tax policy as Gillard had prior to the election.


----------



## Mofra

nulla nulla said:


> The second biggest polluter tax/cost to be passed on, will be be at cars/trucks etc. I'm currious to see whether this will be passed on as a user pays tax by adding a few cents to the price of fuel or will they bang it onto the annual registration of any and every vehicle regardless of the extent the vehicle pollutes?



The mining industry get $5bn per annum of diesel fuel credits. I would have thought reducing this impost on the Australian people would be a better strategy.


----------



## Logique

Here's a Labor leader getting on with the important things.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...inister-for-rock/story-e6freuy9-1226013097784

Kristina Keneally is Minister for Rock - Exclusive by Joe Hildebrand From: The Daily Telegraph February 28, 2011

NSW will have its very own "Ambassador of Rock" under a radical plan to make Sydney the No. 1 destination for stadium acts in the Asia-Pacific and a world major events superpower. 
Premier Kristina Keneally said her Government would also bid for the first ever overseas English Premier League football match, host international 20/20 cricket matches in western Sydney and beam Sydney's New Year's Eve fireworks display live to other world cities.
In what is believed to be a world first, the Government will appoint a senior hired gun, reporting direct to the Premier via Events NSW, to lure the biggest-selling acts on the planet with incentives for them to launch their world tours in the Harbour City....


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> Here's a Labor leader getting on with the important things.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...inister-for-rock/story-e6freuy9-1226013097784
> 
> Kristina Keneally is Minister for Rock - Exclusive by Joe Hildebrand From: The Daily Telegraph February 28, 2011
> 
> NSW will have its very own "Ambassador of Rock" under a radical plan to make Sydney the No. 1 destination for stadium acts in the Asia-Pacific and a world major events superpower.
> Premier Kristina Keneally said her Government would also bid for the first ever overseas English Premier League football match, host international 20/20 cricket matches in western Sydney and beam Sydney's New Year's Eve fireworks display live to other world cities.
> In what is believed to be a world first, the Government will appoint a senior hired gun, reporting direct to the Premier via Events NSW, to lure the biggest-selling acts on the planet with incentives for them to launch their world tours in the Harbour City....




It's least she is thinking but when's the election?
It will need to be soon before she does something really stupid with this idea.


----------



## Julia

Poll from "The Punch":




> Are the Greens running the Gillard Government?
> Yes
> 93.74% (5347 votes)
> No
> 6.26% (357 votes)
> Total votes: 5704


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Poll from "The Punch":




It's so obvious that Gillard and Swan are not running the country - Bob Brown and Christine Milne are running it.  Even labor MPs aren't happy - see article below.

They weren't happy with her flood levy either but, I understand that being labor, they are restricted from voting for anything other than the party line.  The coalition do not have such a dictatorial policy.  I am sure IFocus will quickly correct if my understanding is incorrect.... 

Green-Left is ripping Labor apart: 



> JULIA Gillard has a full-blown internal party revolt on her hands. As much as she and her deputy Wayne Swan would like to play it down, conservative Labor MPs have had a gutful of the Green-Left alliance that has dominated Labor policy since the August election.





and on the flood levy:

Labor MPs revolt over Julia Gillard's flood tax levy: 



> FURIOUS Labor MPs have turned on Prime Minister Julia Gillard over the controversial $1.8 billion flood tax, labelling it one of the "dumbest decisions" by a federal government.


----------



## Calliope

It's no wonder Gadaffi looks down in the mouth. He's heard that people are comparing him to Gillard.


----------



## trainspotter

http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/

*Changing Seats*93.2% counted.
Last updated Thu Sep 16 03:28PM 
Time Count % Electorate Held By Margin 2PP % Swing Predict 
15:23 94.7 La Trobe L/NP 0.5 50.9 1.4% to ALP ALP GAIN 
06:10 95.0 McEwen L/NP 0.0 55.3 5.3% to ALP ALP GAIN 
11:22 89.6 Solomon ALP 0.2 51.8 1.9% to CLP CLP GAIN 
14:23 90.1 Melbourne ALP 4.7 56.1 10.8% to GRN GRN GAIN 
17:37 94.3 Denison ALP 15.3 51.2 16.5% from ALP IND GAIN
16:38 93.5 Bennelong ALP 1.4 53.1 4.5% to LIB LIB GAIN 
14:52 94.6 Gilmore * ALP 0.4 55.3 5.7% to LIB LIB WIN 
12:22 93.1 Hasluck ALP 0.8 50.6 1.4% to LIB LIB GAIN 
08:53 94.5 Macarthur * ALP 0.5 53.0 3.5% to LIB LIB WIN 
09:52 94.8 Macquarie ALP 0.3 51.2 1.5% to LIB LIB GAIN 
14:53 92.0 Swan * ALP 0.3 52.5 2.8% to LIB LIB WIN 
11:07 93.4 Bonner ALP 4.5 52.8 7.4% to LNP LNP GAIN 
12:37 91.3 Brisbane ALP 4.6 51.1 5.7% to LNP LNP GAIN 
14:07 93.1 Dawson ALP 2.6 52.4 5.0% to LNP LNP GAIN 
13:22 94.6 Dickson * ALP 0.8 55.1 5.9% to LNP LNP WIN 
12:34 92.4 Flynn ALP 2.2 53.6 5.8% to LNP LNP GAIN 
15:08 91.6 Forde ALP 3.4 51.6 5.0% to LNP LNP GAIN 
14:53 92.6 Herbert * ALP 0.0 52.2 2.2% to LNP LNP WIN 
14:37 91.1 Leichhardt ALP 4.1 54.6 8.6% to LNP LNP GAIN 
12:08 93.5 Longman ALP 1.9 51.9 3.8% to LNP LNP GAIN

*The following people are not entitled to enrol and vote: *
* prisoners serving a sentence of five years or more 
* people who have been convicted of treason and not pardoned 
* *people who are incapable of understanding the nature and significance of enrolment and voting*

I would suggest there are a lot of people who fall into this category. We get the government we deserve I am afraid. Melbourne turning GREEN !

Afterall ....... we elected them.


----------



## trainspotter

Gripping stuff here ....... http://www.openaustralia.org/senate/?id=2010-11-24.42.2

_Incompetence is actually the biggest category. With the school halls, there was billions wasted; roof insulation, four deaths, 207 fires and 250,000 dodgy jobs; border security, almost 10,000 illegal arrivals and 190 boats; computers in schools, a million promised and less than half delivered; Indigenous housing, hopelessly delayed; trade training centres program, with 2,650 promised, delayed; GP superclinics, 36 promised and four delivered; and the Green Loans scheme a debacle, with $275 million wasted.

Then there is the category of old-fashioned deceit, both the intention to never deliver and the lack of compunction about breaking commitments. There was the commitment to childcare expansion, with 260 centres promised, and staff, but 38 delivered. Then there was Fuelwatch, dumped””Labor knew they could not fix the petrol price; that was a fib. GroceryWatch, with $7 million wasted and 30 staff employed, was abandoned””another policy hoax. They said they would not means-test the baby bonus; they have done it. They said they would not means-test private health insurance rebates; they have tried to do it. Then there is the most laughable one of all, the new era of transparency: Operation Sunlight. Yet, when it comes to a $43 billion program, the NBN Co., is there a cost-benefit analysis? No. What about releasing the business case? No. There is no transparency, no ‘new paradigm’, just politics as usual._

This guy is a soothsayer !

_On the front page of the Australian today we see Wayne Swan saying that actually there is a path they are following: ‘ALP must steer clear of Greens, says Swan’. I would say to Mr Swan: it’s a bit late, sunshine; you have already had the civil ceremony. We all saw it. I am not being critical of the Greens. They could see a sucker coming and they took full advantage of it._


----------



## Calliope

*Gillard to address Congress*

My God!!! Do we really deserve this? It will be the day we do a  cultural gringe.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/gillard-readies-for-address-to-us-congress-20110305-1binv.html


----------



## sails

The latest polls aren't looking good for labor who have apparently dropped significantly in the polls in the last two weeks since Gillard and Swan broke their catagorical pre-election promise of no carbon tax in this term:

Details here:  Labor falls to historic lows: Newspoll


----------



## Whiskers

sails said:


> The latest polls aren't looking good for labor who have apparently dropped significantly in the polls in the last two weeks since Gillard and Swan broke their catagorical pre-election promise of no carbon tax in this term:
> 
> Details here:  Labor falls to historic lows: Newspoll




Yeah, I heard this on the TV news as I was waking up from a bit of a nap.

I reckon I heard them say also, that more voters prefer Rudd over Gillard as PM in that poll. Deja vous!?


----------



## -Bevo-

sails said:


> The latest polls aren't looking good for labor who have apparently dropped significantly in the polls in the last two weeks since Gillard and Swan broke their catagorical pre-election promise of no carbon tax in this term:
> 
> Details here:  Labor falls to historic lows: Newspoll




Guess those knife's will get a good sharpen while Julia is away, bet there's a big smile on Rudds face.


----------



## Logique

Record low approval for Labor, 30%. Difficult for PM Gillard to come back from this. Best stay over in America with Obama. Abbott is painting it as a Gillard inspired conspiracy to avoid the carbon tax in an election year, in the process tipping out Rudd. 

Rudd will be thinking, what goes around comes around. 



> http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...owest-level-poll/story-e6frfku0-1226017393141
> LABOR'S primary vote has plunged to its lowest ever record on the back of its proposed carbon tax.
> 
> It has also dealt Julia Gillard a personal blow.
> 
> The latest Newspoll survey for The Australian shows primary vote support for the federal government has dropped to 30 per cent from 36 per cent two weeks ago.
> 
> That's below the 31 per cent record low when Paul Keating was prime minister in 1993.
> 
> The coalition rose four points to 45 per cent.
> 
> Political experts have been anticipating a big plunge after Ms Gillard went back on commitments made during the election campaign and announced plans to introduce a carbon price by mid-2012.
> 
> Her lead over Opposition Leader Tony Abbott as preferred prime minister has now halved to 11 points, while voter satisfaction in her performance is also down.
> 
> Record Labor low on carbon fury: Newspoll
> The Australian,
> NSW Labor election strategy in chaos
> 
> The Australian, 22 Feb 2011
> Poll points to annihilation for NSW Labor
> 
> The Australian, 22 Feb 2011
> On a two-party preferred basis, Labor is now bringing up the rear after tying with the coalition at 50 per cent a fortnight ago.
> It now trails 46 to 54


----------



## Logique

Joe Hockey's craven performance on Q&A last night guarantees he'll never be leader. I endured 15 minutes of it, but feeling nauseous, had to switch over to Parkey and Frost, ahh that's better.

Talented women like Gail Kelly have never needed to play the gender card. Even so, go into a St George or Westpac bank and count the male employees, if you can find one. Funny no questions about that last night.

It's the younger women who are the best hope for the future of feminism. They see the baggage carried by the 1970s boiler-suited brigade (not including Kelly in this), and are embarassed by it.


----------



## trainspotter

JULIA Gillard's carbon tax plan has reversed public support for action on global warming, damaged her leadership and delivered Labor its lowest primary support on record. 

The Australian leads with today's Newspoll, which shows Labor's support in the polls has slumped to a 30 per cent primary vote. In the two-party-preferred vote, the ALP trails the Coalition 46-54, down from 50-50 a fortnight ago. And Kevin Rudd leads Ms Gillard as preferred PM 44-37. As Dennis Shanahan writes, the numbers are a record low primary vote for the ALP and follow Ms Gillard's decision to announce a carbon tax.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...owest-level-poll/story-e6frea8c-1226017394059

Just LOL on all of this. It would seem that they have lost touch with the proletariat.


----------



## Calliope

The Poll is still not good news for the Coalition. Although Labor has slumped to a new low, Gillard is still more popular in the PM stakes than Abbott. The answer is plain...both have to go.

And the Greens, who are really the cause of Gillard's bad judgment, have gone up two points. Brown's machiavellian plan is working. It's no wonder he's grinning like a rat with a gold tooth, these days.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> The Poll is still not good news for the Coalition. Although Labor has slumped to a new low, Gillard is still more popular in the PM stakes than Abbott. The answer is plain...both have to go.



Well, that won't happen, at least in the immediate future.  If they were to go, who do you suggest should replace them?   Would you like to see all Kev's dreams come true and have him back as Dear Leader prior to his appointment to the UN?



> And the Greens, who are really the cause of Gillard's bad judgment, have gone up two points. Brown's machiavellian plan is working. It's no wonder he's grinning like a rat with a gold tooth, these days.



This is quite peculiar, given the presumed reason for Gillard's huge fall in popularity is the Greens' policy of a carbon tax.
What's going on here?  Is this just further evidence of total disgust with both the major parties on the part of people who either can't be bothered to think any further about the reality and ramifications of Greens' policies, or is it the climate change enthusiasts feeling they want even more influence from the Greens?


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> This is quite peculiar, given the presumed reason for Gillard's huge fall in popularity is the Greens' policy of a carbon tax.
> What's going on here?  Is this just further evidence of total disgust with both the major parties on the part of people who either can't be bothered to think any further about the reality and ramifications of Greens' policies, or is it the climate change enthusiasts feeling they want even more influence from the Greens?




The reality is that the carban tax hasn't been brought out and the coalition scaremongering will look quite different once the policy is out. You speak of reality but we don't know what this is yet.

Gillard has shown that she can break promises so deserves to lose support. 
The Greens have been consistent and so will keep garnering Labor supporters.

As I said earlier, I think this policy will be Abbott's Waterloo.


----------



## Whiskers

Knobby22 said:


> The reality is that the carban tax hasn't been brought out and the coalition scaremongering will look quite different once the policy is out. You speak of reality but we don't know what this is yet.
> 
> Gillard has shown that she can break promises so deserves to lose support.
> The Greens have been consistent and so will keep garnering Labor supporters.
> 
> As I said earlier, I think this policy will be Abbott's Waterloo.




Gee, I have to agree with you whole heartedly there Knobby.


I don't know about the knives coming out (from Rudd) for Gillard... she has effectively fallen on her own sword. 

The ALP will be looking for some fertile ground to get back some popularity and seats and I reckon Qld and Rudd are about their last chance for a win. 

The support for a leader (Rudd) not from the traditional factions from the southern states was the overwhelming factor for Rudds big win. With his popularity on the rise again he is probably the best chance Labor has to retain power.

If any of the southern states come up with the next leader, you can bet the ALP vote from Qld will be down again... because many QldÃ©rs resent being ruled by factions from the southern states... and ensure a Labor loss.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Well, that won't happen, at least in the immediate future.  If they were to go, who do you suggest should replace them?   Would you like to see all Kev's dreams come true and have him back as Dear Leader prior to his appointment to the UN?




I don't have a clue really. I can't think of anyone in either party with enough authority  to win popular support. It won't be Rudd. He is only looking good in comparison to Gillard, and the Qld vote in the poll would have been a big factor in this.

I guess the newspaper cartoonists will decide when it is time for Gillard to go. When they really start putting the boot in as they are with Julia, then you've had it.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> As I said earlier, I think this policy will be Abbott's Waterloo.




Abbott may get wedged through his own policy on climate change (its a tax and open ended) with 2 years or more to the next election could well harm him.

This of course if labor can prosecute their argument which they have done so far woefully


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Abbott may get wedged through his own policy on climate change (its a tax and open ended) with 2 years or more to the next election could well harm him.
> 
> This of course if labor can prosecute their argument which they have done so far woefully



Wishful thinking IFocus. Juliar, going, going gone before the year is out.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...on-fury-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226017350966


----------



## Knobby22

noco said:


> Wishful thinking IFocus. Juliar, going, going gone before the year is out.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...on-fury-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226017350966




I doubt it.


----------



## Julia

Whiskers said:


> The support for a leader (Rudd) not from the traditional factions from the southern states was the overwhelming factor for Rudds big win. With his popularity on the rise again he is probably the best chance Labor has to retain power.
> 
> If any of the southern states come up with the next leader, you can bet the ALP vote from Qld will be down again... because many QldÃ©rs resent being ruled by factions from the southern states... and ensure a Labor loss.



Whiskers, if the ALP were to dump Gillard and reinstate Rudd, they would be the laughing stock of the country.   The multiple backflips thus far would be nothing in comparison.

Did anyone see the interview on "7.30" this evening with Ms Gillard by Chris Urhlman?
I've been looking forward to his return and he started off well enough.
But imo she won the interview purely on the basis of her capacity to out talk him.
She said nothing remotely useful of course, but it's disappointing to think the ABC's best political journalist couldn't have struck a few more blows.  Instead he looked a bit pathetic.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Whiskers, if the ALP were to dump Gillard and reinstate Rudd, they would be the laughing stock of the country.   The multiple backflips thus far would be nothing in comparison.
> 
> Did anyone see the interview on "7.30" this evening with Ms Gillard by Chris Urhlman?
> I've been looking forward to his return and he started off well enough.
> But imo she won the interview purely on the basis of her capacity to out talk him.
> She said nothing remotely useful of course, but it's disappointing to think the ABC's best political journalist couldn't have struck a few more blows.  Instead he looked a bit pathetic.




Well Julia, Chris Uhlman would no doubt be restricted by the ABC lefties as to what he can or cannot say. If he he went against the tide, his job would be in jeopardy. You must know by now how the ABC operates with their biased attitude.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Well Julia, Chris Uhlman would no doubt be restricted by the ABC lefties as to what he can or cannot say. If he he went against the tide, his job would be in jeopardy. You must know by now how the ABC operates with their biased attitude.




From a bloke who eats fish and chips everyday wrapped in the Australian print 
choose your own bias


----------



## Whiskers

Julia said:


> Whiskers, if the ALP were to dump Gillard and reinstate Rudd, they would be the laughing stock of the country. The multiple backflips thus far would be nothing in comparison.




Yeah, it would be quite embarrasing for the Party machine and particularly Gillard her plotters and supporters, but most importantly I think the hard line labor supporters will go along with it and probably more swinging voters are warming to the idea. So long as they get the numbers they won't care what the rest think.

I tipped a Rudd comeback at the time because Gillard had set herself up on a pretty pointy pinnacle where she had a narrow path to walk and balance to maintain public confidence... the arguement of policy change and early election for a mandate, a very definate and unretreatable position where she has now lost her balance and betrayed the whole premise for her coup and been quite arrogent about it.

Again from a purely logical, tactical view, Labor has to shore up support from Qld in particular and go with a leader who, if not Rudd, someone who will appease more swing voters from Qld in particular who want a strong principled leader not aligned to southern state factions. My read between the lines of the Polls is these are the main issues detracting from labor support.

That being the case, strategicaly they ought to take advantage of a less than strong opposition leader and eat some humble pie now to sack Gillard and reinstall Rudd on the premise that Gillard 'renegged and failed to deliver' or another non aligned credible person otherwise they will go hungry on the back benches for a long time again. I think while the public would have a little laugh, they would see that as a desperately needed vote of confidence in the integrity of the party machine acting in Australias best interest to sack a 'hijacker' in a 'righteous' disguise. 

But realistically for the time being I think the odds are still with the parasitic factional strategists to win the day for their own self interest and blindly kill off Labour as a force again right across the nation and hand a less than 'best' opposition leader government in a protest vote.


----------



## Logique

Nice cartoon from Calliope. I can't supply a shred of evidence to back this up,
but I'd speculate that behind closed doors the ALP have turned the hatch rate on Combet up to max. 

Watch Kerry O'Brien from here. His attitude to Gillard will be the signal.


----------



## bigdog

*The Old Farmer was so right about julia I must post it again.  I am sure that many of you will agree with the old farmer!*

YOU'VE GOT TO LOVE THIS FARMER'S OUTLOOK ......




While suturing up a cut on the hand of a 75 year old farmer, whose hand had been caught in the gate while working his cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man.

Eventually the topic got around to Julia Gillard, and her being our prime minister.

The old farmer said, "Well, ya know, Julia is just a Post Tortoise."

Now not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked,

What's a "Post Tortoise?"

The old farmer said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a Tortoise balanced on top, that's a post Tortoise."

The old farmer saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain.

"You know she didn't get up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, she doesn't know what to do while she's up there, she sure as hell isn't goin' anywhere, and you just wonder what kind of dumb bastard put her up there in the first place."


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Nice cartoon from Calliope. I can't supply a shred of evidence to back this up,
> but I'd speculate that behind closed doors the ALP have turned the hatch rate on Combet up to max.
> 
> Watch Kerry O'Brien from here. His attitude to Gillard will be the signal.




Logique, I'm not up with the expression "turned the hatch rate".  What does it mean?
I haven't seen K. O'Brien since he retired.  Where is he these days?


----------



## moXJO

Logique said:


> Nice cartoon from Calliope. I can't supply a shred of evidence to back this up,
> but I'd speculate that behind closed doors the ALP have turned the hatch rate on Combet up to max.
> 
> Watch Kerry O'Brien from here. His attitude to Gillard will be the signal.




From what I have been hearing from union associates, Combet is being groomed for the future top position. 
Rudd will never get in again. He burnt all his bridges within the parties’ powerbase (even those who supported him to get the top job). 
The labor right faction is fed up with the pandering to the leftie latte drinking tree huggers and ignoring their blue collar base. Shacking up with the greens is destroying their support throughout labor strongholds. Gillard is toast imo and the battle within labor at the moment is to bring the party back to center.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Logique, I'm not up with the expression "turned the hatch rate".  What does it mean?
> I haven't seen K. O'Brien since he retired.  Where is he these days?



The cartoon above says 'cooked' in the cloning vat, I thought 'hatched' was a bit kinder. Kerry O'Brien does a monologue introducing Four Corners, but some interview cameos would not surprise.


----------



## trainspotter

*The cost of Julia Gillard's plan for a carbon price will not be included in the May Budget, keeping households and businesses in the dark about the impact of the proposal on the Government's bottom line.*

_The office of Treasurer Wayne Swan has confirmed to The West Australian that because of the uncertainty over the final design of the proposal, including the ultimate price per tonne of carbon, *Mr Swan will not unveil any of the major costings behind the tax.* It leaves a major question mark over the 2012-13 Budget - when the carbon price is due to start - and whether the Government may get a Budget surplus boost from the tax once it becomes operational._

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/8975343/carbon-tax-to-be-left-out-of-budget/

WTF ??? NO seriously WTF??? We have a government hell bent on bringing in a new carbon pricing scheme but cannot put any figures on it to tie on with their own budget??
*
OMFG - WAKE UP AUSTRALIA !*


----------



## choice1

Funny article I got linked today by my left wing buddy.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ck-of-carbon-tax/story-e6frg6nf-1226018012417


----------



## nulla nulla

bigdog said:


> *The Old Farmer was so right about julia I must post it again.  I am sure that many of you will agree with the old farmer!*
> 
> YOU'VE GOT TO LOVE THIS FARMER'S OUTLOOK ......
> 
> View attachment 41770
> 
> 
> While suturing up a cut on the hand of a 75 year old farmer, whose hand had been caught in the gate while working his cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man.
> 
> Eventually the topic got around to Julia Gillard, and her being our prime minister.
> 
> The old farmer said, "Well, ya know, Julia is just a Post Tortoise."
> 
> Now not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked,
> 
> What's a "Post Tortoise?"
> 
> The old farmer said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a Tortoise balanced on top, that's a post Tortoise."
> 
> The old farmer saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain.
> 
> "You know she didn't get up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, she doesn't know what to do while she's up there, she sure as hell isn't goin' anywhere, and you just wonder what kind of dumb bastard put her up there in the first place."




This was good for a laugh, the first time it was posted..........now it is becoming like one of those jokes David Koch tries to tell on sunrise......boring. 
Don't get me wrong, I think she is up the proverbial creek without a paddle with the Carbon Tax debacle but this joke has been well and truly worked over.


----------



## Logique

News footage this morning of PM Gillard addressing Congress as little kids in the primary school. In a red jacket, which in the US is the Republican colour.

Congress applauded wildly the 'friend of America' lines, little realizing Gillard's true political leanings, which are much closer to left-wing socialist anti-Americanism.

Americans would not abide her true politics. In fact, if she was a country they would invade her in the name of regime change.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> News footage this morning of PM Gillard addressing Congress as little kids in the primary school. In a red jacket, which in the US is the Republican colour.
> 
> Congress applauded wildly the 'friend of America' lines, little realizing Gillard's true political leanings, which are much closer to left-wing socialist anti-Americanism.
> 
> Americans would not abide her true politics. In fact, if she was a country they would invade her in the name of regime change.




*"Real mates talk straight" * she said. Yeah right! Like * "There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead"*.


----------



## Calliope

Usually the PM"s spouse hangs out with the President's wife. Tim has to settle for Beasley's spouse to watch Julia perform for Congress.


----------



## finnsk

Why do we need a government



> FIRMS with more than 100 workers will face spot checks and mandatory reporting on the numbers of women they employ and their position under tough new measures aimed at boosting gender equality in the workplace.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-gender-equality/story-fn59niix-1226018435720


----------



## Whiskers

finnsk said:


> Why do we need a government
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-gender-equality/story-fn59niix-1226018435720




This is another nail in the coffin of the Gillard government. 

I have to agree with the opposition, this is going too far down the totalitarian road for my liking.

I saw a report from the US not long ago stating that while more women were enroling to vote, they were not proportionally increasing their vote for women politicians. I think the same attitude exists for employment . I've heard a lot of women say they prefer to work under male supervision/boss. There seems to be a bit of a lack of respect in the capability, more resentment and 'bitchiness' between a lot of women and female supervisors/bosses.

I think some people just like playing the victim as an excuse for their poor(er) skills and committment to a position and some pollies like pandering to them. 

Is ther a lot of votes to be got from far left feminists? 

What about the jobs that females now dominate because of laws that discriminate against males, like school teachers! Males have left the profession in droves mainly because of ridiculous 'sexual misconduct' laws that put males in a largely untenable position should someone make a complaint... even malicious complaint.


----------



## Julia

Whiskers said:


> This is another nail in the coffin of the Gillard government.
> 
> I have to agree with the opposition, this is going too far down the totalitarian road for my liking.



Absolutely agree.   It will just result in people being promoted to positions for which they are not properly qualified.

Women achieve nothing in real terms if they are not promoted on their capacity and merit.  Imo it's actually patronising to women to have quotas or any other device which essentially ignores how capable they are.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin

Whiskers said:


> I have to agree with the opposition, this is going too far down the totalitarian road for my liking.



Is this story really for real?

Every time something like this is not refused by the public another crazier totalitarian-ish law comes in later. It's the totalitarian tiptoe that in the long run takes away liberty and real freedoms. So it seems business owners who create the jobs have to take the risk of running a business, but cannot choose who they really need or want. Their choice has been taken away from them.

Carbon Dioxide tax seems weird too.


----------



## Logique

Many thanks to the posters above.

What about this from the NSW Premier leading into the elections:


> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ns...-keneally-part-1/story-fn7q4q9f-1226018730558
> 
> ...One night, Mary Harvan turns to her best friend Kristina Kerscher [now Keneally]. "When we rule the world, things will be different," Harvan says.
> 
> Kristina agrees. "*In 20 or 25 years we will be in charge*," she says. "We'll have to do something about these things - seriously."
> 
> Harvan looks at her and smiles. But Kristina does not smile back.
> 
> "No," repeats the woman who will one day run NSW. "In 20 to 25 years we will be in charge."...



This kind of bitter divisiveness does no favours to women. And no favours to Premier Keneally. All it does is discredit the cause of genuine equality. As opposed to Joe Hockey style pandering, or the Kate Ellis embarrassing notion of quotas.  



> Originally posted by *Julia*:
> Women achieve nothing in real terms if they are not promoted on their capacity and merit. Imo it's actually patronising to women to have quotas or any other device which essentially ignores how capable they are.



Never a truer word spoken. Work hard, earn respect, and stop demonizing men. Capable women are going far in today's world.


----------



## sails

nulla nulla said:


> This was good for a laugh, the first time it was posted..........now it is becoming like one of those jokes David Koch tries to tell on sunrise......boring.
> Don't get me wrong, I think she is up the proverbial creek without a paddle with the Carbon Tax debacle but this joke has been well and truly worked over.




This one doing the email rounds here - apologies if it's an old one...:

Julia Gillard was in a hot air balloon and realized she was lost. She reduced altitude and spotted a man below.

She descended a bit more and shouted: 'Excuse me, can you help me? I promised Bob Brown I would meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am.'

The man below replied, 'You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude.'

'You must be an Engineer,' said Julia.

'I am,' replied the man, 'how did you know?'

'Well,' answered Julia, 'everything you have told me is probably technically correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information and the fact is, I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If anything, you've delayed my trip by your talk.'

The man below responded, 'You must be our PM.'

'I am,' replied Julia, 'but how did you know?'

'Well,' said the man, 'you don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my bloody fault.​​


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Usually the PM"s spouse hangs out with the President's wife. Tim has to settle for Beasley's spouse to watch Julia perform for Congress....




Tim looks a very tired man in that photo with bags under his eyes.  I sometimes wonder what he makes of all the carryings on of his partner.


----------



## Calliope

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Is this story really for real?
> 
> Every time something like this is not refused by the public another crazier totalitarian-ish law comes in later. It's the totalitarian tiptoe that in the long run takes away liberty and real freedoms. So it seems business owners who create the jobs have to take the risk of running a business, but cannot choose who they really need or want. Their choice has been taken away from them.
> 
> Carbon Dioxide tax seems weird too.




The gender police are taking over.


----------



## nulla nulla

Julia said:


> Absolutely agree.   It will just result in people being promoted to positions for which they are not properly qualified.
> 
> Women achieve nothing in real terms if they are not promoted on their capacity and merit.  Imo it's actually patronising to women to have quotas or any other device which essentially ignores how capable they are.




I agree with this. It's a bit like the anti discrimination laws where a person of anglo saxon descent will be passed over for a job when a person of ethnic background applies for the same role. You only have to look at the public service to see the disproportionate numbers of non anglo saxons employed in relation to their percentage of the actual population. 

Promotion of any-one based on gender rather than skills required will stuff up more than it will fix.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> Tim looks a very tired man in that photo with bags under his eyes.  I sometimes wonder what he makes of all the carryings on of his partner.




I suddenly realised that this picture *does* tell a story.  






*What do you see in that awful woman, Tim?*


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Tell ya what...Jules is kicking goals in the US at the moment.  My God I've never seen such a positive reception.  Was it 8 standing ovations??

She topped it off with a teary message "Americans can do anything"  lol.  Man they loved that.  Congress was all sobbing.

While I'm not a fan of hers, I can only congratulate her for winning over everyone like she has.  Amazing.


----------



## trainspotter

Gringotts Bank said:


> Tell ya what...Jules is kicking goals in the US at the moment.  My God I've never seen such a positive reception.  Was it 8 standing ovations??
> 
> She topped it off with a teary message "Americans can do anything"  lol.  Man they loved that.  Congress was all sobbing.
> 
> While I'm not a fan of hers, I can only congratulate her for winning over everyone like she has.  Amazing.




That's because they all thought Ronald McDonald was addressing them for the last time!

*It's time to go, Ronald McDonald*

A coalition of health professionals, parents and corporate accountability advocates is calling for Ronald McDonald to retire as a spokesman for the world’s largest restaurant chain, saying he has too much influence on kids.

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/wellbeing/its-time-to-go-ronald-20100329-r6jc.html


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Well, she might be awkward, physically unattractive, have a drone of a voice and be a horrible dresser, but success is success.  I know it doesn't make up for all the bad stuff, but I'm *very  *mpressed with this display of harmonious international relations.


----------



## trainspotter

Gringotts Bank said:


> Well, she might be awkward, physically unattractive, have a drone of a voice and be a horrible dresser, but success is success.  I know it doesn't make up for all the bad stuff, but I'm *very  *mpressed with this display of harmonious international relations.




I concur. She is in esteemed company.

Only three other Australian prime ministers, Messrs Menzies, Hawke and Howard, have had the honour of addressing congress.

Julia Gillard did cover a lot of territory. She expressed faith in the mission in Afghanistan. She also endorsed the US stance on a range of international issues from Iran, Israel and China to the Middle East.

For this I am in agreeance. Truly remarkable piece of statesmanship.


----------



## noco

Discontent in Labor Caucus is finally starting to surface with the right wing showing their satisfaction with Juliar. How much longer can she survive?


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...knows_gillard_is_as_bad_as_conservatives_say/


----------



## Julia

Further to the blog comment above, Malcolm Farr also notes the discord in the Labor caucus.

http://www.news.com.au/national/sen...nl&emcmp=Punch&emchn=Newsletter&emlist=Member


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin

sails said:


> Tim looks a very tired man in that photo with bags under his eyes.  I sometimes wonder what he makes of all the carryings on of _*his partner*_.



I may have missed something, but does he have a business partner?


----------



## Logique

Gringotts Bank said:


> ..I know it doesn't make up for all the bad stuff, but I'm *very  *mpressed with this display of harmonious international relations.



Yes taken in isolation it seemed to go well. It looked like a full house in Congress, so the mission clearly made an impression. Kicking the footy with the President was a great and historic touch.


----------



## Julia

I never quite understand why it's necessary for Australia to be so sycophantic toward America.  John Howard was the same, so it's not a party thing.

And in return, the Americans are duly over the top in what they say about Ms Gillard or whomever.  These visits seem to be essentially just a bit of mutual p****ng in each other's pockets.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> I never quite understand why it's necessary for Australia to be so sycophantic toward America.  John Howard was the same, so it's not a party thing.
> 
> And in return, the Americans are duly over the top in what they say about Ms Gillard or whomever.  These visits seem to be essentially just a bit of mutual p****ng in each other's pockets.




Mark Latham, with no objection from Julia Gillard, one of his strongest backers, said in 2003;

"Mr Howard and his Government are just yes-men to the United States. There they are, a conga line of suckholes on the conservative side of Australian politics".

Howard would now be laughing.


----------



## Calliope

Obama is laughing too. I can't wait for Julia to visit China. Are we "great mates" with them too?


----------



## bellenuit

Logique said:


> Yes taken in isolation it seemed to go well. It looked like a full house in Congress, so the mission clearly made an impression. Kicking the footy with the President was a great and historic touch.




According to Sky News, Congress was full of interns and other staff members. It did a sweep of a section of the attendees and there seemed lots of girls in their early twenties there.

Apparently the part in her speech about the moon landing was very much like a speech given by Bono, but I suspect that was purely coincidental.


----------



## trainspotter

*Wayne Swan's May Budget 'bigger, nastier' than anything Howard did *

CONSUMERS face a hike in the price of medicines and the loss of some bulk-billing for pathology and other diagnostic services as part of a tough May Budget. 

Some small-scale climate change programs are expected to be pruned and welfare measures tightened amid reports the Government is searching for across-the-board savings of up to $20 billion, the Herald Sun reported.

Australia's frontline medical researchers also face a battle to retain current funding levels with the Budget razor gang targeting big-spending programs.

Senior government sources have told the Herald Sun the May Budget - to be delivered by Treasurer Wayne Swan - is shaping as the toughest since the Coalition slashed industry funding and the public service in 1996.

*"This is bigger and nastier than anything Howard ever did," *one government source said

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/money/money-...et/story-e6frfmd9-1226019426532#ixzz1GG2vdUf1

LOLOLOL ........ time to pay the piper eh? That's the problem with a giant credit card. YOU HAVE TO PAY IT BACK AT SOME STAGE !!!!!!!!


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> I never quite understand why it's necessary for Australia to be so sycophantic toward America.  John Howard was the same, so it's not a party thing.
> 
> And in return, the Americans are duly over the top in what they say about Ms Gillard or whomever.  These visits seem to be essentially just a bit of mutual p****ng in each other's pockets.




The sucking up is for security or the hope that the US will back us in case of a conflict. In a serious war aggressive nations secure energy and mineral resources Australia would be an prime target should it ever get nasty with another super power i.e. China.


----------



## Julia

trainspotter said:


> *Wayne Swan's May Budget 'bigger, nastier' than anything Howard did *
> 
> CONSUMERS face a hike in the price of medicines and the loss of some bulk-billing for pathology and other diagnostic services as part of a tough May Budget.



Fantastic.  How good is that!  They waste billions and then cut essential medical programs to pay for their wanton stupidity!


----------



## Julia

Well put together article on the government by Annabel Crabb from "The Drum".
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/11/3161735.htm


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Well put together article on the government by Annabel Crabb from "The Drum".
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/11/3161735.htm




Yes JULIA I agree, it is one stuff up after another. This government has to go. The sooner the better or else we will all go down the gurgler.
That decision is in the hands of the independants and it would not surprise me if they turn against     JU-LIAR in the  National interest.


----------



## poverty

Julia said:


> Fantastic.  How good is that!  They waste billions and then cut essential medical programs to pay for their wanton stupidity!




Hey at least the local primary school here has a massive hall that took a huge crew over a year to build!  Millions on that one building alone I'm sure.


----------



## bigdog

*The Queen's riddle*

Julia Gillard met with the Queen in England ...

She asked her, "Your Majesty, how do you run such an efficient government?

Are there any tips you can give to me?"

"Well," said the Queen, "the most important thing is to surround yourself with intelligent people."

Julia frowned, and then asked, "But how do I know the people around me are really intelligent?"

The Queen took a sip of tea. "Oh, that's easy; you just ask them to answer an intelligent riddle."

The Queen pushed a button on her intercom. "Please send David Cameron in here, would you?"

David Cameron walked into the room and said, "Yes, Your Majesty?"

The Queen smiled and said, "Answer me this please, David, your mother and father have a child. It is not your brother and it is not your sister. Who is it?"

Without pausing for a moment, David Cameron answered, "That would be me."

"Yes! Very good," said the Queen.

Julia went back home to Australia and asked Wayne Swan, her Deputy Prime Minister the same question.

" Wayne , answer this for me. Your mother and your father have a child. It's not your brother and it's not your sister. Who is it?"

"I'm not sure," said Wayne "Let me get back to you on that one." He went to his advisors and asked every one, but none could give him an answer..

Finally, he ended up in the men's room and recognized Tony Abbott's shoes in the next stall.

Wayne asked, "Tony, can you answer this for me? Your mother and Father have a child and it's not your brother or your sister. Who is it?"

Tony yelled back, "That's easy, it's me!"

Wayne smiled, and said, "Thanks!" Then, he went back to speak with Julia.

"Say, I did some research and I have the answer to that riddle. It's Tony Abbott"

Julia got up, stomped over to Swan, and angrily yelled into his face, "No, You idiot! It's the English Prime Minister, David Cameron!"


----------



## noco

It is just as well JU-LIAR is an atheist. If she were a Roman Catholic she would have to see a priest every day to confess her lies.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...nts/oakes_actually_its_probably_julias_fault/


----------



## noco

bigdog said:


> *The Queen's riddle*
> 
> Julia Gillard met with the Queen in England ...
> 
> She asked her, "Your Majesty, how do you run such an efficient government?
> 
> Are there any tips you can give to me?"
> 
> "Well," said the Queen, "the most important thing is to surround yourself with intelligent people."
> 
> Julia frowned, and then asked, "But how do I know the people around me are really intelligent?"
> 
> The Queen took a sip of tea. "Oh, that's easy; you just ask them to answer an intelligent riddle."
> 
> The Queen pushed a button on her intercom. "Please send David Cameron in here, would you?"
> 
> David Cameron walked into the room and said, "Yes, Your Majesty?"
> 
> The Queen smiled and said, "Answer me this please, David, your mother and father have a child. It is not your brother and it is not your sister. Who is it?"
> 
> Without pausing for a moment, David Cameron answered, "That would be me."
> 
> "Yes! Very good," said the Queen.
> 
> Julia went back home to Australia and asked Wayne Swan, her Deputy Prime Minister the same question.
> 
> " Wayne , answer this for me. Your mother and your father have a child. It's not your brother and it's not your sister. Who is it?"
> 
> "I'm not sure," said Wayne "Let me get back to you on that one." He went to his advisors and asked every one, but none could give him an answer..
> 
> Finally, he ended up in the men's room and recognized Tony Abbott's shoes in the next stall.
> 
> Wayne asked, "Tony, can you answer this for me? Your mother and Father have a child and it's not your brother or your sister. Who is it?"
> 
> Tony yelled back, "That's easy, it's me!"
> 
> Wayne smiled, and said, "Thanks!" Then, he went back to speak with Julia.
> 
> "Say, I did some research and I have the answer to that riddle. It's Tony Abbott"
> 
> Julia got up, stomped over to Swan, and angrily yelled into his face, "No, You idiot! It's the English Prime Minister, David Cameron!"




Well put together. That is about the mentality standard of Swan and Gillard. Neither have much between the ears.


----------



## Wysiwyg

bellenuit said:


> Apparently the part in her speech about the moon landing was very much like a speech given by Bono, but I suspect that was purely coincidental.



Those media ticks love to belittle don't they.


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> Apparently the part in her speech about the moon landing was very much like a speech given by Bono, but I suspect that was purely coincidental.




Its a generation thing i felt the same way all those years ago and even now its still out there as an amazing achievement


----------



## Julia

bigdog said:


> *The Queen's riddle*



Very amusing bigdog, thanks.



IFocus said:


> Its a generation thing i felt the same way all those years ago and even now its still out there as an amazing achievement



So, IFocus, you'd be believing Ms Gillard's being all choked with emotion at the memory was entirely genuine?
You'd dismiss entirely any notion that - given the criticism she received for her wooden and unfeeling performance during the Australian floods - she has been told to act out some warm fuzzy stuff for the purpose of her political survival?


----------



## bigdog

*Waiting the unveiling of the Julia Gillard statue ...*


----------



## bigdog

*And now,  Australia 's future rail services:*

*THE NEW HIGH SPEED SERVICE:  "THE GILLARD ROCKET"

Non-stop service daily from CHRISTMAS ISLAND to CENTRELINK. Coming to a town near you!*


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> Very amusing bigdog, thanks.
> 
> 
> So, IFocus, you'd be believing Ms Gillard's being all choked with emotion at the memory was entirely genuine?
> You'd dismiss entirely any notion that - given the criticism she received for her wooden and unfeeling performance during the Australian floods - she has been told to act out some warm fuzzy stuff for the purpose of her political survival?




Gillard is a politician working the US for the benefit of all Australians and by all accounts doing an excellent job that's what I think. 

I also shudder that some time in the future a gaff prone idiot Abbott could be the one over there on our behalf, I can guarantee he will never be trusted by the Yanks of addressing the house.

Just maybe you don't understand the gravity of a US visit by our leaders and what the underlying issues are.


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Gillard is a politician working the US for the benefit of all Australians and by all accounts doing an excellent job that's what I think.




Naturally that's what *you* would think. Whoever advised the "star spangled Ranga"* to join the conga line of suckholes and grovel before a stacked audience, should have realised it made her cringeworthy back home. 

Naturally her performance was ignored by the American media. I can't wait for her pending visit to China. It will take her best spin doctors to sell her American performance to the Chinese. Tears won't help.

* my thanks to Mike Bowers.


----------



## drsmith

bigdog said:


> *And now,  Australia 's future rail services:*
> 
> *THE NEW HIGH SPEED SERVICE:  "THE GILLARD ROCKET"
> 
> Non-stop service daily from CHRISTMAS ISLAND to CENTRELINK. Coming to a town near you!*



That should be The "THE GILLARD/BROWN ROCKET" or perhaps "THE BROWN/GILLARD ROCKET".

It would be powered carbon neutral of course. As there is no room for solar panels, it would be pulled by the Australian middle class.


----------



## drsmith

Given the unfolding events in Japan, it hasn't taken the anti-nuclear brigade long to start shouting from the roof tops.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/13/3162740.htm?section=justin 



> Greens leader Bob Brown says the situation in Japan is a reminder that nuclear energy is outside "the limits of human safeguards".
> 
> "It does raise real questions about the nuclear alternative, particularly for a sunny country like this where we don't need it. People don't want it," he said.
> 
> "When the Howard government promoted it, they quickly withdrew it, because the Australian people don't want to be unnecessarily faced with that sort of mega risk."
> 
> However, Ms Gillard says now is not the time to have a debate about nuclear power.
> 
> Meanwhile, conservationists say Australia will be morally culpable if there is a nuclear disaster in Japan.
> 
> Dave Sweeney from the Australian Conservation Foundation says Australia has a direct moral responsibility for any nuclear fallout.
> 
> "Australian uranium is bought and burnt by this power company in Japan," he said.
> 
> "So there are direct links between the industry here and the industry in Japan, which is causing major problems with mass evacuations, with mass dislocation of communities, with a real threat of a grave contamination event."



Bob,

The sun doesn't shine at night.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Given the unfolding events in Japan, it hasn't taken the anti-nuclear brigade long to start shouting from the roof tops.http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/13/3162740.htm?section=justin Bob,
> The sun doesn't shine at night.



Sanctimonious opportunists are they not. This from the people who told us the QLD floods were caused by coal miners. 
Fran Kelly forensically quizzing Ziggy Zwitkowski on Radio National this morning, circling like a predator, but Ziggy was wise to her.


----------



## Logique

Expect flat-earth climate deniers to get a right bollocking tonight, all with a mocking sneer - PM Gillard is the guest on ABC Q&A.  Won't be too many interruptions from Mr Climate Change. 

Also expecting the boot to be sunk into nuclear power.

If you have the stomach to sit through it all.


----------



## demiser

Unfortunately a lot of the information out their at the moment is either incorrect or fairly misleading.   However with the run the media is giving it, and the scare mongers jumping on the bandwagon, it will probably be enough to convince Joe Public that nuclear's a bad idea.


----------



## nukz

*Rudd preferred as Gillard hits new low*
Katharine Murphy
March 14, 2011

MORE voters prefer Kevin Rudd than Julia Gillard as federal Labor leader - and the Coalition has consolidated an emphatic election winning lead in the latest Age/Nielsen poll.

It's bad news for the government, but Tony Abbott should hold off on the celebration. Voters are signalling they would prefer Malcolm Turnbull as Liberal leader.

Source - http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-preferred-as-gillard-hits-new-low-20110313-1bt2d.html

Not sure if this has been posted yet, this does not supprise me lots of people hate her guts especially those cochroach independants...


----------



## Whiskers

nukz said:


> *Rudd preferred as Gillard hits new low*
> Katharine Murphy
> March 14, 2011
> 
> MORE voters prefer Kevin Rudd than Julia Gillard as federal Labor leader - and the Coalition has consolidated an emphatic election winning lead in the latest Age/Nielsen poll.
> 
> It's bad news for the government, but Tony Abbott should hold off on the celebration. Voters are signalling they would prefer Malcolm Turnbull as Liberal leader.
> 
> Source - http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-preferred-as-gillard-hits-new-low-20110313-1bt2d.html
> 
> Not sure if this has been posted yet, this does not supprise me lots of people hate her guts especially those cochroach independants...




The Brisbane Times publishes a bit more information.

It sems that diehard labor prefer Gillard, but the wider electorate prefers Rudd as Labor leader and possibly by default as PM, (assuming he dumps Gillards Carbon Tax Policy... and what was Rudds policy again...) since Abbott doesn't seem to be able to get it all together for the swing voter. 

Combet and Shorten would only hasten the demise of a federal Labor government atm.



> In asking *voters* to choose their *preferred Labor leader*, the poll pitted Gillard against Rudd but also against two of the most often-touted next-generation Labor leaders, Greg Combet of the Labor Left faction and Bill Shorten of the Right. Combet and Shorten won 9 per cent support each, with Gillard attracting 34 per cent and Rudd 39 per cent among all voters polled.
> 
> *Among Labor voters*, Gillard was the most popular choice by a margin of 19 percentage points.
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nat...ard-popularity-plummeting-20110313-1bt33.html


----------



## Calliope

Tony Abbott must be thinking there is something wrong with his style when more people would prefer a bogan, lying, political assassin as PM to him. Perhaps he will re-invent himself as a new Tony. 

I think if he told the truth about his real views on climate change he would regain respect lost through his vacillating approach to this issue. He is a clever man and if he sniffed the breeze he would find that the majority of the electorate know very well that you can't alter the climate. They are looking for a lead.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Tony Abbott must be thinking there is something wrong with his style when more people would prefer a bogan, lying, political assassin as PM to him. Perhaps he will re-invent himself as a new Tony.
> 
> I think if he told the truth about his real views on climate change he would regain respect lost through his vacillating approach to this issue. He is a clever man and if he sniffed the breeze he would find that the majority of the electorate know very well that you can't alter the climate. They are looking for a lead.




I agree that Tony could well afford to take a strong stand and give voice to the many Aussies who are disgusted with with the whole debacle of "climate change".  I think Gillard has gone so far the other way that he would be respected for presenting an a definite NO to this debacle.

Agree with Noco too that we rarely hear of "global warming" as apparently temperatures globally have dropped a bit.  Can't use that as an excuse for a tax any more.

So "climate change" is the now word.  But then climate has been changing all on it's own for yonks.  Didn't need any help from us.

And to use "carbon" as an excuse for a tax is beyond me.  It is said that Australia only emits around 1% or world carbon emissions.  Agree that anything we try to do with taxes will absolutely be negligable to zero effect. 

 Even if the taxes reach their destination,  we have a government who seems to be always running out of revenue, so it's unlikely to me that carbon tax revenue will be used for anything other than more money for jam by this government.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Tony Abbott must be thinking there is something wrong with his style when more people would prefer a bogan, lying, political assassin as PM to him. Perhaps he will re-invent himself as a new Tony.
> 
> I think if he told the truth about his real views on climate change he would regain respect lost through his vacillating approach to this issue. He is a clever man and if he sniffed the breeze he would find that the majority of the electorate know very well that you can't alter the climate. They are looking for a lead.



 I agree absolutely.   He would gain more votes than he would lose by reverting to his earlier stronger position.  Nick Minchin is not too afraid to say it.  Pity we don't see more of him, imo.


----------



## trainspotter

_Dave Sweeney from the Australian Conservation Foundation says Australia has a direct moral responsibility for any nuclear fallout.

"Australian uranium is bought and burnt by this power company in Japan," he said._

Ummmmmmmmmmmm ....... nope. 

Uranium is recovered in a chemical precipitate which is filtered and dried to produce a yellow powder known as *yellowcake*. The yellowcake is heated to about 700 °C to produce a dark grey-green uranium oxide powder containing more than 98% U3O8, which is placed into 200 litre steel drums for export.

Yellowcake is used in the preparation of uranium fuel for nuclear reactors, for which it is smelted into purified UO2 for use in fuel rods for pressurized heavy-water reactors and other systems that use natural unenriched uranium. Generally between 2% - 4% U235.

Yellowcake used by Japan (supplied by Australia) is actually enriched in France.

Nuclear fuel rods are lowerd into water to create steam. The heated water rises up and passes through another part of the reactor, the heat exchanger. The moderator/coolant water is radioactive, so it can not leave the inner reactor containment. Its heat must be transferred to non-radioactive water, which can then be sent out of the reactor shielding. This is done through the heat exchanger, which works by moving the radioactive water through a series of pipes that are wrapped around other pipes. The metallic pipes conduct the heat from the moderator to the normal water. Then, the normal water (now in steam form and intensely hot) moves to the turbine, where electricity is produced. 

Not burnt at all by the way. Spent rods are then sent back to France to be enriched again.

Most of the Low Enriched Uranium (not yellowcake) supplied to Japan comes from Russia by the way.


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> Naturally that's what *you* would think. Whoever advised the "star spangled Ranga"* to join the conga line of suckholes and grovel before a stacked audience, should have realised it made her cringeworthy back home.
> 
> Naturally her performance was ignored by the American media. I can't wait for her pending visit to China. It will take her best spin doctors to sell her American performance to the Chinese. Tears won't help.
> 
> * my thanks to Mike Bowers.




The real test of Gillards visit will be if it opens up more access to the powers that run the place for ambassador Beasley


----------



## Slipperz

Calliope said:


> Naturally that's what *you* would think. Whoever advised the "star spangled Ranga"* to join the conga line of suckholes and grovel before a stacked audience, should have realised it made her cringeworthy back home.
> 
> Naturally her performance was ignored by the American media. I can't wait for her pending visit to China. It will take her best spin doctors to sell her American performance to the Chinese. Tears won't help.
> 
> * my thanks to Mike Bowers.




Lol star spangled ranga. 

Yup might of been an idea to fawn less over the yanks being able to "do anything". 

Seeing as their voraciously greedy practically unregulated  financial institutions just ran the worlds biggest pyramid scheme and fscked up the entire global financial system.

 Amazing how they managed to "do that". : 

As an aside I was watching the PM's press conference yesterday and the thought struck me would it be possible for her to wear anything other than a low cut tee shirt under her jacket?

Like a shirt for instance?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

IFocus said:


> The real test of Gillards visit will be if it opens up more access to the powers that run the place for ambassador Beasley




I have it on good authority from contacts in the embassy in Washington that "Bomber" Beazley, sorry he is a zz not an ss, jeez I'm falling asleep already, is making a very understated impression in Washington.

He is viewed as a sage philosopher manque.

Bob Carr would have done a better job, just slightly

He needs every kick he can get, and not just up his ar$e.

Now as for Jools and her pradoner, nuff said.

gg


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> The real test of Gillards visit will be if it opens up more access to the powers that run the place for ambassador Beasley



I'll come to the defence of Kim Beazley who I reckon will be a pretty decent Ambassador to the US.
He definitely lacked the drive to be Prime Minister, but is erudite, a gentleman, and has excellent social skills, all of these being imo a prerequisite to the position.

I can't at all see that Ms Gillard's fawning adulation which was quite nauseating will enhance Mr Beazley's position at all.  On the contrary.


----------



## Happy

Yesterday’s Q&A got on my nerves, PM Gillard nauseating number of times said: this is very good question, pity I couldn’t remotely say anything like that about any of her answers.

Hope next elections bring better results for me anyway!


----------



## Julia

I've only watched some of Q & A so far.   She has now clearly admitted that she did not want a carbon tax and has had to capitulate to the Greens.

This is hardly a Prime Minister of conviction.

What is this thing she has where she has to smile in that patronising way all the time when she is answering questions?


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> I've only watched some of Q & A so far.   She has now clearly admitted that she did not want a carbon tax and has had to capitulate to the Greens.



She does not want a carbon tax, but wants to tax carbon ??

The focus groups Labor are listening to must be saying that Australian voters, on average, have the intelect of a grain of sand.

No matter how Julia Gillard and the ALP try to dress it up, it's still a whopper of a lie.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21961&p=619153&viewfull=1#post619153


----------



## Julia

The following is a letter reprinted in "The Punch" from a Brit re our Kev's current globetrotting.



> From here in the UK I have for sometime observed this oddball with a kind of bewildered sense of awe. Australia is lucky that the world doesn’t pay it much attention. If it did then this man would be a major liability rather than the minor one he currently is. Mr Rudd’s recent displays, allied with your Prime Minister’s cringe-making performance in Washington, is for me the perfect example of how mediocrity can rise easily to the top Down Under. Aussies enjoy feeling smug and superior to what they believe is a still class-riddled Britain and think of themselves as a meritocracy. In truth Australia is a mediocracy. Rudd not only suffers from acute Greg Sheridan-itis (primary symptom: an inflated sense of Australia’s place in the world). He is also quite clearly a narcissist of the highest order. Did Australians think that President Obama cancelling his trip to meet him in Australia THREE TIMES a coincedence! I find it remarkable that the highly impressive British Foreign Minister William Hague - regarded as one of the best parliamentary brains in Westminster - has been under pressure of late for a slight mis-step in Libya. In contrast Rudd has been tearing round the world like an utter madman and is rewarded with rising poll ratings! To be fair, most of Mr Rudd’s big-noting is comic. But this rudeness to a devastated Japan is beyond the pale and brings shame on Australia. I fear it won’t be the last time you are embarrassed on the global stage by this strange little man.


----------



## Logique

Benched by Bigppond yesterday.

The Americans like Beazley.  I don't know what they'd make of Bob Carr. And Rudd should have quit while he was ahead.

I remember a media interview where Carr was asked to name the five greatest US Presidents. He couldn't find a spot for Franklin D Roosevelt. 

However Theodore Roosevelt, who used to ride around on a horse creating national parks, was right up there. That's Bob Carr for you.


----------



## Calliope

"I fear it won’t be the last time you are embarrassed on the global stage by this strange little man."

They got that right. But what about this strange little bogan ranga doing her duck-walk across the word stage accompanied by her current bewildered partner. We are indeed a mediocracy.


----------



## trainspotter

*LABOR'S national secretary Karl Bitar has announced his resignation. *

"I am today advising of my resignation as the National Secretary of the Australian Labor Party," he said in a statement today.

Mr Bitar will finish on April 8.

"By taking the decision now, it gives my replacement enough time to prepare for the 2011 national conference in December," he said.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard is scheduled to address the media at Parliament House in Canberra at 12.30pm (AEDT).

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...ts/story-e6frfku0-1226022426417#ixzz0iK2tjO3F

Rats leaving a sinking ship? Ohhhhhhhhhhhh the irony.


----------



## Julia

Karl Bitar has essentially been pushed.  He is being blamed for Gillard's woefully inadequate campaign in the last election.

Way better to blame the campaign strategist than accept your personal inadequacies.


----------



## noco

How can anyone believe what this woman says. She will say and do anything to stay in power. PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE AND THEN LIE, LIE, LIE.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-going-offshore/story-fn59niix-1226022832982


----------



## Logique

This link is for Calliope.
From Greg Sheridan of The Australian on 12 March. Carrying an epic cartoon, which I'm sorry to say, needs to be understood by more people. Subject is the proposed no-fly zone over Libya. My underline.



> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...oses-her-frailty/story-e6frgd0x-1226019971330
> 
> Having tried to back away from her position, apparently because she was scared of contradicting Obama, Gillard then started to get heat for contradicting Rudd.
> 
> At this point, either a Gillard staffer, or someone close to her, tried to spin the story so that it was Rudd's fault. As a result the Fairfax press came out with stories yesterday to the effect that Rudd was out of control. They quoted an unnamed Gillard adviser as saying that Rudd was "out of control", that he did not co-ordinate foreign policy with the Prime Minister and that "a no-fly zone over Libya is not the Australian position".
> 
> Every word of those sentences is a provable lie. If that briefing was indeed given on Gillard's behalf, or with her knowledge, she is a Prime Minister in a very desperate position indeed.



And later, which did not engender much warmth towards the Obama administration, in fact (if true) it is a craven way for them to act:


> Whatever the Americans decide to ask Australia for, they have made this straightforward calculation. It will be easier under a Gillard government than under a Tony Abbott government. This is no reflection on Abbott. Rather, the Americans believe that if a Labor government does this kind of move, the Liberals will support it in opposition.


----------



## drsmith

The Greens are destroying the Gillard Government and Bob Brown seems rather happy about it. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...appear-different/story-e6frg6xf-1226023131780



> “The Greens are going to ultimately enhance Labor's position in the polls. If Labor keeps taking our policies I think they'll keep doing alright.”




30% 2PP is hardly enhanced. Is their strategy to take the ALP's place as one of two major parties ?


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> ...
> 30% 2PP is hardly enhanced. Is their strategy to take the ALP's place as one of two major parties ?




I think they are somewhat drunk with their newfound power at the moment and, IMO, would quite likely actually believe such a delusional theory...


----------



## Wysiwyg

> “The Greens are going to ultimately enhance Labor's position in the polls. If Labor keeps taking our policies I think they'll keep doing alright.”




What's that? Political blackmail!


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> The Greens are destroying the Gillard Government and Bob Brown seems rather happy about it.




Yes, the grin on his face is only matched by Milne's smirk. They really are a piece of work.


----------



## drsmith

An interesting analysis of the politics behind selling the carbon tax.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ides-of-politics/story-e6frg6xf-1226024285434



> if the Greens were extremists, why had she entered into an alliance with them? Good question.
> 
> The lesson is that the more Gillard criticises the Greens, the more she condemns her own judgment.


----------



## joea

Bill Shorten has been seen down shopping for half a dozen new suits
Cheers


----------



## trainspotter

Interesting to note that PM Julia Gillard who does not believe in the sanctity of marriage, is an atheist and also a Republican should be attending a Royal Wedding no doubt?


----------



## IFocus

Gillard serving it up to Abbott




> "If he wants to debate political honesty in this place, then bring it on," she said.
> 
> *"Did he go to the Australian people before the last election telling them about his $11 billion black hole?"*
> 
> Amid roars from the Opposition benches and futile attempts by Mr Jenkins to restore order, the Prime Minister went on.
> 
> *"Did he go to the Australian people before the last election saying [Pauline Hanson's] One Nation would write his economic policy?" she said.*
> 
> "Did he go to the Australian people before the last election saying senior members of his frontbench like the shadow treasurer would agitate for the return of WorkChoices? No he did not.
> 
> "So if we want to have a debate about political honesty then bring it on, Mr Speaker, bring it on because we have the most hollow man with the least conviction sitting in the Opposition Leader's chair we've ever seen in this Parliament."


----------



## drsmith

The public gallery serving it up to Gillard.



> A question from Opposition Leader Tony Abbott attracted rare applause from the public gallery during today's Question Time, leading to a robust exchange on the floor of Parliament.
> 
> *"Does the Prime Minister honestly believe she would be in the Lodge today if, six days before the last election, she had been straight with the Australian people and said up-front to them, 'yes, there will be a carbon tax under the government I lead?'"* Mr Abbott said.
> 
> He was referring to Julia Gillard's pre-election promise not to introduce a carbon tax.
> 
> Ms Gillard has said the nature of the minority Government caused her to break the promise - remarks widely interpreted as relating to pressure from the Greens.
> 
> *But Ms Gillard did not canvass those issues today*, instead using the words of Mr Abbott's mentor, former prime minister John Howard, before launching into a no-holds-barred attack on her questioner.



http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/9062519/gillard-abbott-trade-blows-over-carbon-tax/


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Gillard serving it up to Abbott




If Ms Gillard is so convinced that she hasn't done anything wrong, why doesn't she wait for an election or even have a referendum on carbon tax and the boats?  That would at least prove there is some honour left in this labor government, IMO.

Abbott isn't governing - so her finger pointing is irrelevant.  It's the three fingers pointing back at herself that she should be doing something about, IMO.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> Gillard serving it up to Abbott



IFocus, I really can't believe you are silly enough to quote this idiotic rhetoric from Ms gillard!



> Amid roars from the Opposition benches and futile attempts by Mr Jenkins to restore order, the Prime Minister went on.
> 
> "Did he go to the Australian people before the last election saying [Pauline Hanson's] One Nation would write his economic policy?" she said.



What on earth is the basis for such a stupid comment.  Pauline Hanson has been a non-event for years now, has made zero public commentary (thank god) and has only now poked up her head because she smells the chance of making a few more taxpayer dollars by standing for the Senate.

This is the sort of utter rubbish that so diminishes the Prime Minister.  If she were to confine her rhetoric to factually based comments, she would have somewhat more credibility.




> "Did he go to the Australian people before the last election saying senior members of his frontbench like the shadow treasurer would agitate for the return of WorkChoices? No he did not.



Oh for god's sake, Tony Abbott has said over and over that Work Choices is dead.
Just accept that.  Do not falsely imply otherwise in an attempt to scare voters.
Just pathetic on her part and a sign of her desperation.

And if you are quoting this nonsense on the basis that you either believe or endorse the Prime Minister's comments, IFocus, then it says more about you than it does about the opposition.



[


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Does the Prime Minister honestly believe she would be in the Lodge today if, six days before the last election, she had been straight with the Australian people and said up-front to them, 'yes, there will be a carbon tax under the government I lead?'" Mr Abbott said.



Excellent question.  For once Mr Abbott got it exactly right.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Excellent question.  For once Mr Abbott got it exactly right.



Indeed. 

If I was in the public gallery, I would have given it a standing ovation.

Prime Minister Gillard was only keen to avoid answering it, which demonstrates what is wrong with question time in parliament, regardless of who is in power.


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> IFocus, *I really can't believe you are silly enough* to quote this idiotic rhetoric from Ms gillard!
> 
> 
> What on earth is the basis for such a stupid comment.  Pauline Hanson has been a non-event for years now, has made zero public commentary (thank god) and has only now poked up her head because she smells the chance of making a few more taxpayer dollars by standing for the Senate.
> 
> This is the sort of utter rubbish that so diminishes the Prime Minister.  If she were to confine her rhetoric to factually based comments, she would have somewhat more credibility.
> 
> 
> 
> *Oh for god's sake, Tony Abbott has said over and over that Work Choices is dead.
> Just accept that.*  Do not falsely imply otherwise in an attempt to scare voters.
> Just pathetic on her part and a sign of her desperation.
> 
> And if you are quoting this nonsense on the basis that you either believe or endorse the Prime Minister's comments, *IFocus, then it says more about you than it does about the opposition*.
> 
> 
> 
> [




Accept what Abbott's says..............climate change is crap, climate change is man made, climate change is real, hang on climate change science is not settled, scripted comments vers non scripted, I didn't fund the attack on Pauline Hanson, budget figures audited by an independent accountant firm.

Accept what Abbott's says..... never ever 


BTW if you do or others do that's fine, it would be crass of me to be sitting on a high horse preaching how silly you might be after all its just politics its not real and its not really that serious talking about politicians who couldn't get a real job.


Interesting the coalition members who didn't turn up to the nutter rally today and it had nothing to do with LW RW politics.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Interesting the coalition members who didn't turn up to the nutter rally today and it had nothing to do with LW RW politics.



Where's Wayne Swan ?


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Where's Wayne Swan ?




Cooking the books........


----------



## trainspotter

IFocus said:


> Accept what Abbott's says..............climate change is crap, climate change is man made, climate change is real, hang on climate change science is not settled, scripted comments vers non scripted, I didn't fund the attack on Pauline Hanson, budget figures audited by an independent accountant firm.
> 
> Accept what Abbott's says..... never ever
> 
> 
> BTW if you do or others do that's fine, it would be crass of me to be sitting on a high horse preaching how silly you might be after all its just politics its not real and its not really that serious talking about politicians who couldn't get a real job.
> 
> 
> Interesting the coalition members who didn't turn up to the nutter rally today and it had nothing to do with LW RW politics.




Stay strong IFocus, stay strong.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Nobody, but nobody with half a brain believes in Global Warming, and I've had that from the high honchos in both the ALP and Coalition Parties.

It's only the Greens and lipservers who push this crazy agenda.

gg


----------



## sails

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Nobody, but nobody with half a brain believes in Global Warming, and I've had that from the high honchos in both the ALP and Coalition Parties.
> 
> It's only the Greens and lipservers who push this crazy agenda.
> 
> gg




and crazy people who think the whole world is mad but them and who use it as an excuse for more taxes...


----------



## Logique

The NSW Keneally Labor government is in all sorts. Election is tomorrow.

From:  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...lection-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226027732163

...Primary support for Labor has dropped by three percentage points since the previous Newspoll taken earlier this month, to an *equal all-time low of 23 per cent*. These are the preliminary findings of the latest Newspoll...The Coalition's primary support is steady on 50 per cent, producing a gap of 27 percentage points, the *largest ever recorded* between the major parties in NSW.

The Coalition is ahead by 64 per cent to 36 per cent in two-party-preferred terms, *also the largest lead recorded*....*The numbers suggest the wall-to-wall radio and TV scare campaign directed against Mr O'Farrell by Labor over the past four weeks has had no effect*. Labor's primary support, at 23 per cent, is identical to where it stood at the time of Ms Keneally's "soft" campaign launch early last month.

The Coalition's primary support is four points higher.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Cooking the books........



You might be right there, with Bob Brown stirring the pot.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-tax-deal-revolt/story-fn59niix-1226027728392

I suspect Labor and the Greens have allready agreed on Labor's RSPT behind closed doors and that this is just a distraction, unless the Greens truely have delusions of taking over Labor as one of two major parties.

Labor should go back to the polls and seek a majority madate for it's policies. If nothing else, they would hopefully rid the PM's office of the Greens.


----------



## drsmith

> Ferguson calls Greens basket-weavers and labels leader 'soapbox' Bob




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ader-soapbox-bob/story-e6frg6xf-1226027938159

That's all well, good and entertaining, but, as noted in post #682 above, images speak a thousand words and shows where Labor really stands with the Greens.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> I suspect Labor and the Greens have allready agreed on Labor's RSPT behind closed doors and that this is just a distraction, unless the Greens truely have delusions of taking over Labor as one of two major parties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They might have in general terms but unlikely in detail neither side would trust the other an inch as they are both looking at similar voter base for the policy and both will want to claim it was them that got it up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Labor should go back to the polls and seek a majority madate for it's policies. If nothing else, they would hopefully rid the PM's office of the Greens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Labor doesn't have to go back to the polls they will likely get their policy's across the line with the current minority government.
Click to expand...


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> They might have in general terms but unlikely in detail neither side would trust the other an inch as they are both looking at similar voter base for the policy and both will want to claim it was them that got it up.



The detail on the mining tax would now be pretty well settled, at least in the context of negotiation between Labor and the Greens.



IFocus said:


> Labor doesn't have to go back to the polls they will likely get their policy's across the line with the current minority government.



If they do, Labor will have it's mining tax and the Greens their carbon tax. The Greens will be even happier if the latter is over Labor's corpse.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> If they do, Labor will have it's mining tax and the Greens their carbon tax. The Greens will be even happier if the latter is over Labor's corpse.





I don't see the carbon tax getting up easily with the Greens. Labor will want it to have no effect or if any to advantage its voter base. They will want to go to an election saying look at Abbott hes a fraud in his claims of it hurting job's, people etc.

Remember the so called tax is only a transition vehicle to some sort of trading scheme same as the coalitions policy.

Greens don't care because there is only up side no real consequences so they will want it to hurt the bigger carbon produces.

It will be hard to see how both sides can do a deal.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> I don't see the carbon tax getting up easily with the Greens.



???


----------



## drsmith

A few correctional edits (bold).



IFocus said:


> I don't see the carbon tax getting up easily with the Greens. Labor will want it to have no *immediately noticable *effect or if any to advantage *swinging voters in the short term before disadvantaging all*. They will want to go to an election* lying about *Abbott hes a fraud in his claims of it hurting job's, people etc.
> 
> Remember the so called tax is only a transition vehicle to some sort of trading scheme same as *Kevin Rudd's/Malcolm Turnbull's *policy.
> 
> Greens don't care because there is only up side no real consequences so they will want it to hurt *the consumer who ultimately use the energy/products produced by* the bigger carbon produces.
> 
> It will be hard to see how both sides can do a deal.



They did it prior to the election. Bob Brown said there would be a carbon tax introduced this term, at that time, when Labor were denying it.


----------



## sails

A couple of interesting articles from the Australian on Gillard's BER:

*BER panning dumped in dead of night*



> The report was tabled out of session by the government at 10.05pm last night after the NBN debate wrapped up at 10pm.
> *
> It was tabled without the knowledge of the committee chairman Chris Back and several other of the Liberal members, including opposition BER spokesman Brett Mason.*
> 
> "It is very strange indeed that it would be tabled like this . . . it certainly raises suspicions," Senator Mason said late last night.




and agree with the article below below that it seems ludicrous that Ms Gillard couldn't find $1.8b for the flood reconstruction when she seems to spill more than that quite easily.

*BER failures linked to flood levy*



> THE Gillard government could have avoided its temporary floods levy if it had managed schools stimulus programs better, the federal opposition argues.


----------



## joea

Following the NSW election, 70% of mining is covered by coalition states.
With the looming election in QLD, there maybe more.
Is this the loophole to oust Gillard.?
Cheers


----------



## Julia

Sorry if I'm being dense, but what exactly do you have in mind, Joea?


----------



## sptrawler

The only chance of an early election is if the independants break ranks with Labor. Which is on the cards if the State elections follow N.S.W lead, the independants will want to distance themselves for fear of becoming collateral damage. All we need now is a downturn in China and Labor will have set up the perfect storm.


----------



## trainspotter

When China has a downturn ....... LOL. You will be waiting awhile. USA economy is showing signs of recovery (albeit fragile and small)

_New-home sales rose 4.7 pc to a 337,000 annual rate in February, much higher than expected. Durable-goods orders jumped 3.4 pc to USD 165.6 billion in February. This is an unexpected move after six straight months of decline. US markets rose too on the news._

*China playing major role*

_China, the Treasury Secretary said, is playing an important stabilising role in the financial crisis. “The thing that they are doing to get their economy stronger, to encourage domestic demand growth, to allow further revolution in their basis financial basic framework, those things are very important consequential qualities and we are working very closely with them,” he said. “I think they have a lot of confidence in the policies we are pursuing.”_

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/us-economy-showing-signs-of-recovery-says-us-secy/88713-2.html


----------



## sptrawler

The U.S is stopping the stimulus spending in June, Europe is still a basket case and commodity prices are being held up by Chinas internal demand. I don't think it is all going to fall over but we are very exposed to Chinese demand. 
I know, it is different this time, China won't stop buying at record prices. They will just keep paying more and more and we will produce more and more and the world will be a wonderfull place....LOL.


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Sorry if I'm being dense, but what exactly do you have in mind, Joea?




Julia
I am wondering what is going on behind the scenes?
Gillard today caved in on the NBN.

sptrawler suggest the Independants are the weak links, but I am not sure of that.
Windsor has all the money he needs, and Rob is a bit "thick" and cannot see past next week.

With the mining tax, Labor have changed the rules to "get the best part of the chicken", and I do not think that I would depend on Julia's word.
Brown wants the opportunity to ammend that tax, he wants to make it tougher for miners.
Swan has said because they have agreed on all ammendents it should be accepted as is.

The next step is the budget, and at that point "suppy" maybe utilised to force an  early election.

However I was wondering if we have any "government supply mavens" in the audience.
Anyway we will soon see where the NSW finances are now.

Cheers


----------



## Ferret

sptrawler said:


> The only chance of an early election is if the independants break ranks with Labor.




All it would take would be for a sitting member in a marginal labor seat (plently of them) to quit.  Illness, scandal, other personal circumstances, whatever.  Then you have a by-election the result of which could bring down the govenment.

Half a year since the election.  I'd be interested to know what the historic frequency of federal by-elections is.


----------



## joea

joea said:


> Julia
> I am wondering what is going on behind the scenes?
> Gillard today caved in on the NBN.
> 
> sptrawler suggest the Independants are the weak links, but I am not sure of that.
> Windsor has all the money he needs, and Rob is a bit "thick" and cannot see past next week.
> 
> With the mining tax, Labor have changed the rules to "get the best part of the chicken", and I do not think that I would depend on Julia's word.
> Brown wants the opportunity to ammend that tax, he wants to make it tougher for miners.
> Swan has said because they have agreed on all ammendents it should be accepted as is.
> 
> The next step is the budget, and at that point "suppy" maybe utilised to force an  early election.
> 
> However I was wondering if we have any "government supply mavens" in the audience.
> Anyway we will soon see where the NSW finances are now.
> 
> Cheers




The wordis supposed to be supply. sorry


----------



## Julia

Ferret said:


> All it would take would be for a sitting member in a marginal labor seat (plently of them) to quit.  Illness, scandal, other personal circumstances, whatever.  Then you have a by-election the result of which could bring down the govenment.
> 
> Half a year since the election.  I'd be interested to know what the historic frequency of federal by-elections is.



 Ah Ferret, you're right of course.  What a cheerful thought.
(Now will have to stop myself wishing ill health/misfortune on any sitting labor member.)


----------



## sptrawler

Yes Ferret, very tacky, lets stick to the non macabre solution.


----------



## Logique

Sorry about NSW again, but what about this.

Normally circumspect about her politics, but if she tips out a Green, bring it on. 



> Pauline Hanson close to shock win in New South Wales Upper House
> From: The Courier-Mail March 29, 2011
> 
> PAULINE Hanson was in position last night to win a seat in the NSW Parliament's Upper House.
> 
> After being written off after early counting on Saturday, the former One Nation Party leader and serial candidate crept ahead of Greens candidate  Jeremy Buckingham yesterday.
> 
> The first votes counted in the Upper House were from Sydney and metropolitan areas but Ms Hanson has performed better in votes counted yesterday in rural NSW.


----------



## drsmith

The Labor/Green government is trying to wedge the Coalition on tax.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nd-on-mining-tax/story-fn59niix-1226030005303

It will be interesting to see how this goes.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> It will be interesting to see how this goes.



The unified line from the Coalition should be,

_"Having lied to the Australian public about a carbon tax, this government is now trying to back out of a pre-election commitment of business tax cuts to appease their Green allies."_


----------



## noco

The 'HACKERS' have been at work on Gillard's computer, also Rudd and Smith's. If it ever gets out I'll bet there will be some interesting data for all to see.
Perhaps they should look up Bill Shorten first before blaming Abbott.


----------



## DB008

noco said:


> The 'HACKERS' have been at work on Gillard's computer, also Rudd and Smith's. If it ever gets out I'll bet there will be some interesting data for all to see.
> Perhaps they should look up Bill Shorten first before blaming Abbott.




The "Hacking" isn't limited to Gillard.
You only have to look at Google (and Gmail accounts), RIO, BHP & FMG, all in last few years. The Chinese have been pin-pointed for this. Due to "Political Correctness", have not been named although Google does say it has concrete evidence but won't release it and has complained about the Chinese, which "shocked" the Chinese Government.

4 Corners did a very good doco on it some years ago

*"Chinese Whispers"* 

More here...

*(I highly recommend everyone watch this!)*

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20100419/cyber/


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> The 'HACKERS' have been at work on Gillard's computer, also Rudd and Smith's. If it ever gets out I'll bet there will be some interesting data for all to see.
> Perhaps they should look up Bill Shorten first before blaming Abbott.




Noco, I have no idea what you're talking about here.  Can you explain or provide a link to the relevant news item?


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Noco, I have no idea what you're talking about here.  Can you explain or provide a link to the relevant news item?




Julia - have put a couple of links below that I googled...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-spies-hack-into-Australian-PMs-computer.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/29/3176218.htm


----------



## Logique

Being in the bubble of prominence in campus politics as a Fabian Socialist with a good line of patter - might be a heady experience, and from there to managing John Brumby's office. But what's missing here?  A real job is what, and it shows.

The previous rogue Newspoll was a little too convenient for Labor. This latest 45-55 two party feels more realistic.

Rudd wants his old job back, but I don't think Labor will go back to the future. Probably too early for Shorten, and Combet too linked to the carbon tax.

So will we see a Martin Ferguson led Labor. Other than getting Lindsay Tanner back, I'm not sure whether they could do much better.


----------



## drsmith

What's Kevin up to, knife in hand and with a stalking pose ?

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/

He was perhaps a little more candid than Julia would have liked, I suspect.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> Being in the bubble of prominence in campus politics as a Fabian Socialist with a good line of patter - might be a heady experience, and from there to managing John Brumby's office. But what's missing here?  A real job is what, and it shows.
> 
> The previous rogue Newspoll was a little too convenient for Labor. This latest 45-55 two party feels more realistic.
> 
> Rudd wants his old job back, but I don't think Labor will go back to the future. Probably too early for Shorten, and Combet too linked to the carbon tax.
> 
> So will we see a Martin Ferguson led Labor. Other than getting Lindsay Tanner back, I'm not sure whether they could do much better.





Lodique, Kevin Rudd would only like his old job back if misses out on UN Secretary General's job. This, we won't know until the end of 2011. His current mission is to tour the world, mixing with world leaders in an attempt to popularise himself for the top job. That's Kevin's dream.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Ruddy was classic last night on q&a.

He threw in the old "I was wrong, I made a bad call, I admit that" line over and over, with an utterly earnest expression.  So you're an honest man - BIG DEAL!  We need more than that to run a country!  Let's have a standing ovation for admitting you made a mistake!  What about this: *GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!!!!!!!!*

When that bloke on the end of the panel made a criticism of Rudd, I could see Rudd's whole face change and his bottom lip was trembling.  Unfortunately, Rudd is a man whose entire existence is driven by trying to win other people's acceptance.  He is a false personality, plastic.  Doing the little jokes and forced smiles to the crowd, timing it like only a very practised person could, and the little asides to Tony Jones, all matey matey.  If only he was real he could do great things.


----------



## Greg

noco said:


> Lodique, Kevin Rudd would only like his old job back if misses out on UN Secretary General's job. This, we won't know until the end of 2011. His current mission is to tour the world, mixing with world leaders in an attempt to popularise himself for the top job. That's Kevin's dream.




I suspect you are right on this one. He was quite eloquent last night on Q&A and his language style would be right at home at the UN. I don't think he has the goods for the UN role, but he seems "above" the role of Australian PM (again?) so I don't quite know where he really fits?
I don't think Ms Gillard will make the cut and I'm not sure Mr Abbot has the necessary smarts to win for the blues. It will be interesting to see what transpires.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> So will we see a Martin Ferguson led Labor. Other than getting Lindsay Tanner back, I'm not sure whether they could do much better.




Yeah, Marn Ferson for my money. Not a world stage performer, but a man with infinite common sense.


----------



## sails

Here's the link to the latest newspoll.  I wonder what the next stunts will be to try and get the polls back up - will it be mock tears or another giggling performance on Q&A?  I think waiting for an election BEFORE implementing a major tax would be a good start.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/04/05/1226033/691891-110405-newspoll.pdf


And I notice that Martin Ferguson's electorate is named "Batman"...lol


----------



## drsmith

Bed partners and banners. 

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/55320.html


----------



## drsmith

Gringotts Bank said:


> When that bloke on the end of the panel made a criticism of Rudd, I could see Rudd's whole face change and his bottom lip was trembling.



the best Kevin Rudd could come up with to that criticism was to suggest we take a greater responsibility in the context of the total number of refugees.

That though does not address the management of this idiology.


----------



## kingcarmleo

When will this nightmare end? Soon we can only hope.


----------



## sptrawler

Yes I think the electorate is waking up at last that Labor make poor decissions then tax the hell out people to pay for them. 
We have to have a flood tax because we haven't any money. Because we gave it all away 2 years ago to stop a slump in consumer spending, but all they did was put it off and it is happening now. The slump in tax revenue due to minning capital spending and retail related tax collection dropping off has to be picked up someware. "I know a new tax", then everyone has to pay it, it is easier than raising the G.S.T level. "But what can we call it, I know the carbon tax". Jeez give me a break its just another tax to support the stupid N.B.N and other crazy Labor policy like extra detention centre housing for failed boat people policy. The old saying you can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but not all the people all the time is comming home to roost.


----------



## Julia

A few letters to "The Australian" today which seemed to the point.



> In the event of global cooling, will the government give s buckets of money to boost the consumption of gas and electricity?






> Julia tried to go a deep shade of Green, but there was no bounce in the polls.  Then she tried her brand of atheistic Christianity, but still the polls marched determinedly southwards.
> What's next on the faux-belief agenda?  UFOs?






> Rudd to Gillard via Q&A:  "That's not a knife.  This is a knife."






> It's now official.  Kevin Rudd's second tilt at becoming PM was officially launched on Q & A.
> A road to Damascus rebirth of the new man is now publicly announced, courtesy of the ABC as Rudd's de facto factional machine and Tony Jones as his campaign manager.






> I wonder how many viewers were fooled by Kevin O'Lemon's carefully arranged show of contrition and bonhomie on Q&A.
> 
> This was nothing more than an instalment in the Kevin vs Julia contest.
> Let's just have an election and then they can contest the leadership in opposition.





And from "The Australian" 's satirical column "Strewth!":



> Heading inland from Bellingen on the NSW north coast, the Waterfall Way winds past Thora then up the rainforest cloaked mountainside to Dorrigo.
> "Strewth" finds it challenging enough in the car, so we were a little alarmed to discover Tony Abbott had cycled up it yesterday.  He revealed the secret ingredients to 2SM's Grant Goldman:  "A Mars Bar and a Coke at the start of the hill, that helped."
> As did, we suspect replaying Monday night's Q&A in his head on high rotation.






> Speaking of which, as troubling as it was at the time, Kevin Rudd's almost romantic reminiscence about first meeting Julie Bishop in Zimbabwe was a moment of relative innocence on Q&A before the storm.  (Well, almost.)  Rudd's insistence on shortening of Zimbabwe to "Zim" did elicit parallel tweets from self-described "simpering fop" Jules Schiller and Chaser member Chas Licciardello asking:
> "if Zimbabwe was Zim, what would Rudd with Fukushima?"








> Memo to Hawker Britton - Advise Julia not to try to make the Greens dance to her tune by shooting at their toes while she is playing footsie with them.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> A few letters to "The Australian" today which seemed to the point.



So funny, thank you Julia. Now those are what I call Clean Jokes. 

'..In the event of global cooling, will the government give buckets of money to boost the consumption of gas and electricity?..' 

He he. Global cooling is exactly what Victorian sunspots guru Kevin Long says will happen within a few decades: http://www.thelongview.com.au/sunmoonclimate.html

Mind you I am a banjo-playing redneck extremist. Just ask the parliamentary ALP.


----------



## Julia

Quite a good comment from Glenn Milne about our Kev  on Q&A on Monday.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles...nl&emcmp=Punch&emchn=Newsletter&emlist=Member

Did anyone see Ms Gillard on 7.30 this evening?
Why does she have to do that patronising smile all the time when she is offering non-answers to questions?

And I nearly choked on my wine when she pronounced hyperbole as hyperbowl!!!
Unbelievable.

Chris Urhlman is trying hard but so far he's just not cutting it imo.
Other views?


----------



## sptrawler

I just have a huge problem with not screaming when it comes to talking about this government. The last thing they are concerned about is the "normal working family" all they are concerned about is to be sitting around with their chardoney socialist mates saying what a great job they are doing of F ALL.
 BLOODY FOOLS SUROUNDED BY FOOLS


----------



## sinner

Caught this in the Business section of some newspaper while eating lunch today, was so good I wrote the authors name down and came home to google it, so as to post it here.

Took me a little while to find the article, but he has it hosted on his own website.

Peter Martin telling it like it is, or as he calls it:

*Where Gillard gets the Greens wrong*
http://www.petermartin.com.au/2011/04/where-gillard-gets-greens-wrong.html


> *Never has it been more important to understand the Greens. Never has a prime minister had less of a clue.*
> 
> From July the Greens will decide which bills become law and which don’t. The prime minister says they "will never embrace Labor’s delight at sharing the values of every day Australians, in our cities, suburbs, towns and bush, who day after day do the right thing, leading purposeful and dignified lives, driven by love of family and nation”. Maybe, but that’s not what they will be called on to do.
> 
> They will be asked to vote on tax bills, on corporate regulation and on all manner of measures relating to economic management.
> 
> There are clues as to how they will vote, and if we are to believe her, the prime minister has missed every one.
> 
> Gillard thinks the Greens don’t get economics. They “wrongly reject the moral imperative to a strong economy,” she told the Whitlam Institute.
> 
> Her sidekick Anthony Albanese says they “tend to be a grab-bag of issues, tend not to have a coherent policy that adds up”.
> 
> Her resources minister Martin Ferguson says they want to “sit under the tree and weave baskets with no jobs”.
> 
> Its a forgivable impression until you examine what their supporters actually think...




Clicky the link to read on. It is a great article highlighting some interesting research.


----------



## sptrawler

Well under this Government we have the two speed economy well that is obvious when we are led by dumb and dumber. Lets be honest throwing money at people to buy T.V's two years ago $20 billion if my memory serves me correctly. Wouldn't it be better if we were building nation building infrastructure like connecting the north west shelf gas to the cooper basin to supply the eastern states. Maybe a water pipe from the kimberleys to Perth and supplying everyone including the mining areas with water for a measley $12 billion doesn't sound that bad when put in context. At least the money would have supplied ongoing jobs here rather than buying people a T.V to watch while they are out of work and being taxed more, so much for the hand outs, I hope you enjoyed them. .
Sorry I forgot you will get a better internet connction, there you are that makes you feel better.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> ... At least the money would have supplied ongoing jobs here rather than buying people a T.V to watch while they are out of work and being taxed more, so much for the hand outs, I hope you enjoyed them. .
> Sorry I forgot you will get a better internet connction, there you are that makes you feel better.




And what's the point of a new TV when carbon tax comes in?  It will likely become too costly to run. Labor apparently want us to change our habits and use our plasma TVs sparingly.

And what's the point of fast internet when keeping the computer on all day will again be too expensive?

Yes, agree the funds would have been better spent elsewhere especially now that many those new TVs will possibly just gather dust.  Obviously labor policy  be would have to be made on the run without sufficient due diligence prior to implementation.  

Just seeing the lengths labor have gone to prevent NBN due diligence being made public is a worrying prospect.


----------



## sptrawler

Fortunatelly like trainspotter mentioned the wheels are starting to look very wobbly on the N.B.N cart. Also it sounds as though Bob Brown is starting to get a bit peeved with the Government reneging on deals made with them(they should get used to it the Government hasn't a clue). Only a matter of time before the underlying chaos in Labors policy and fiscal management unravels the bond between the greens and Labor. Then the independants will distance themselves especially when the small business sector in their elecorate start jumping up and down. High tax, high petrol prices,high electricity and gas prices, high commercial rents, high food prices then add another tax that will lift the underlying cost on most things = a hard time for small business. One would think that this is giving treasury a headache it is starting to look a bit like the situation just before Kev was chucked out. It's like a juggler with one too many objects in the air you can see that it just doesn't look comfortable.Slowly, slowly catch the monkey just doesn't seem to be in Labors makeup.


----------



## sails

More broken promises on a key commitment - greens won't be happy:

Labor to break promise on dental subsidy scheme



> Health Minister Nicola Roxon has ruled out funding a comprehensive dental subsidy scheme in the May budget, breaking a key commitment Labor struck with the Greens to form government.




Backflips seem to be becoming the norm. Seems to be plenty of money for asylum seekers, climate change "experts", Rudd's throw away billions, etc, etc.

But when it comes to flood repair money, labor cries poor.  Now crying poor again when it suits them.  What will be next?


----------



## joea

I would like an enquiry into the employment figures.

The more people that are out of work.
The more companies that go bankrupt on BER.
The more companies that are put out of business.
The worse our economy becomes.
The higher the $A goes to gut the tourist industry.

The better the unemployment figures are.

Something smell pretty bad in this area.

The government should come clean on "deployment".

Cheers


----------



## Julia

With most political leaders the longer they are in office the more clearly we understand what they are about.  

Kev we knew was obsessively controlling, unable to delegate and/or trust subordinates.

His personality was supercilious, arrogant.

John Howard was the archetypal conservative and never deviated from this.  He was always clear about what he stood for.

But somehow with Ms Gillard, the longer she is PM, the less idea I have about what she is all about.  She seems to have no clear identity of her own but rather to be the product of multiple approaches by the spin advisers.  She comes across to me as a sort of cardboard cut out, whose mouth issues whatever the factional advisers tell her to say at any given time.


----------



## nulla nulla

Julia said:


> And I nearly choked on my wine when she pronounced hyperbole as hyperbowl!!!
> Unbelievable.




Must have been the Welsh/South Australian accent comming through. Could have been worse though, she could have pronounced it "hyperbowel". Proberly more appropriate when you consider it.


----------



## sails

nulla nulla said:


> Must have been the Welsh/South Australian accent comming through. Could have been worse though, she could have pronounced it "hyperbowel". Proberly more appropriate when you consider it.




Don't think the Welsh/South Australian accent could really be the culprit.  The two words are pronounced very diferently - and not hyperbowel either...

It's pronounced "hy·per·bo·le"

US audio can be found here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole


----------



## Logique

sails said:


> Labor to break promise on dental subsidy scheme...Seems to be plenty of money for asylum seekers, climate change "experts", Rudd's throw away billions, etc, etc...



So true Sailsy. The dental scheme could have been done if their financial planning went beyond the level of teenagers with pocket money. Yet another slap to (what remains of) the Labor heartland. Not much of it remaining in this state.


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> Fortunatelly like trainspotter mentioned the wheels are starting to look very wobbly on the N.B.N cart. Also it sounds as though Bob Brown is starting to get a bit peeved with the Government reneging on deals made with them(they should get used to it the Government hasn't a clue). Only a matter of time before the underlying chaos in Labors policy and fiscal management unravels the bond between the greens and Labor. Then the independants will distance themselves especially when the small business sector in their elecorate start jumping up and down. High tax, high petrol prices,high electricity and gas prices, high commercial rents, high food prices then add another tax that will lift the underlying cost on most things = a hard time for small business. One would think that this is giving treasury a headache it is starting to look a bit like the situation just before Kev was chucked out. It's like a juggler with one too many objects in the air you can see that it just doesn't look comfortable.Slowly, slowly catch the monkey just doesn't seem to be in Labors makeup.



Loving your posts sptrawler, but mate, even better with a paragraph break or two in there. Cheers, L.


----------



## Logique

nulla nulla said:


> Must have been the Welsh/South Australian accent comming through. Could have been worse though, she could have pronounced it "hyperbowel". Proberly more appropriate when you consider it.



Nulla, let's wait for the moment when the word 'epitome' comes up in one of her speeches. Probably a slight pause beforehand.


----------



## nulla nulla

Logique said:


> Nulla, let's wait for the moment when the word 'epitome' comes up in one of her speeches. Probably a slight pause beforehand.




as in......"ep-i-to-me"..... lol


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> Loving your posts sptrawler, but mate, even better with a paragraph break or two in there. Cheers, L.




Yes a bit rushed the other half was telling me to get off the computer.


----------



## sptrawler

See in todays "Australian" a senior Wespac exec is saying overseas investors are worried about where the Gillard Government is comming from. Well suprise, suprise the Gillard Government don't know where they are comming from themselves. So how would anyone else know.


----------



## noco

Is Kevin Rudd paving a way back as leader or is it a back stop if he fails in his bid to become UN General Secretary at the end of 2011 when KI-Moon retires.
I guess we will have to wait and see!!!!


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...d-on-the-rebound/story-e6frgd0x-1226036230657


----------



## Wysiwyg

noco said:


> Is Kevin Rudd paving a way back as leader or is it a back stop if he fails in his bid to become UN General Secretary at the end of 2011 when KI-Moon retires.
> I guess we will have to wait and see!!!!




Kevin Rudd has poor diplomacy and relationship skills. He won't be U.N. Gen. Sec. unless "they" require a good puppet.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> See in todays "Australian" a senior Wespac exec is saying overseas investors are worried about where the Gillard Government is comming from. Well suprise, suprise the Gillard Government don't know where they are comming from themselves. So how would anyone else know.




This is a very interesting comment.
I would  believe the majority of CEO'S of big businness are thinking the same thing.

But where does it leave us.? Labor was voted in by the people.

Will the voters of Australia get it correct at the next election.

If we could pick the best politicans from both sides, that group would probably do a good job.

Which means they are not working together for the good of Australia.

It will be interesting to watch O'Farrell. Because I think he is going to display a more 
cooperative form of government.

Cheers


----------



## qldfrog

joea said:


> But where does it leave us.? Labor was voted in by the people.




As Australian, i could nearly take offence at this sentence 
let's get the figures again:
Australian voted for greens and independents who decided to side with labor without asking their respective electorate;
Only Gilliard seems to believe she was elected, and had the clown of Abbott be replaced by ANY other coalition representative, we would not be in the state we are..
And so far no hope at the end of the tunnel


----------



## drsmith

> FOR A supposed extremist, Brown is more pragmatic and conciliatory than almost anyone in the Parliament. Despite all that has been said and written, the demands the Greens have placed on the Labor government since Rudd's election in 2007 have been minimal.
> 
> They gouged a few billion out of the $42 billion stimulus package in return for their support, as did the other Senate crossbenchers, and they reversed planned cuts to solar energy spending in return for supporting the flood levy. Otherwise, they have respected the government's mandate.
> 
> As cranky as Brown is over the watering down of the mining tax, for example, to appease BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto, he accepts that if the Greens block the tax because it is inadequate and they don't like the revenue being used to reduce company tax, the alternative is Abbott's plan to not tax miners at all.
> 
> Therefore the Greens will seek to amend the tax but then wave it through.
> 
> Similarly, the deal they struck with Gillard in return for supporting Labor in minority government included a promise to establish a national dental scheme. Brown said on Thursday that while this demand still stands, he accepts it won't be in this budget because spending is being cut.
> 
> On Thursday morning, Brown and Gillard made up over a cup of coffee in her office.
> 
> The policy issues at stake, he said, were more important than whether his feelings were hurt and it was time to ''move on''.
> 
> Brown is prepared to cut Gillard some slack.



Has the author of this article looked at the composition of the Senate after June 30 ?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/haunted-by-the-ghost-of-pm-past-20110408-1d7rf.html


----------



## Logique

Getting wound up is the Bolta.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...n_labor_faces_only_catastrophe_under_gillard/

At first I dismissed it as all hyperbowl, but then this, '..Climate Change Minister Greg Combet, a former ACTU boss, was heckled this week by Port Kembla unionists when he tried to tell them it wouldn’t cost them their jobs or a chunk of their wages..', 

and, 

'.. Heather Ridout, head of the powerful Australia Industry Group, was once the chief business confidant of the Rudd government, but now she’s distancing herself from the wreckage, criticising not only Gillard’s carbon dioxide tax but her Fair Work Act..' 

Tend to agree with the notion of installing Martin Ferguson or Simon Crean to the ALP leadership, and going into damage limitation mode. Otherwise they face a NSW style wipeout next time. 

The teenagers have spent all their pocket money. Mum and Dad will have to step in and bail them out.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> '.. Heather Ridout, head of the powerful Australia Industry Group, was once the chief business confidant of the Rudd government, but now she’s distancing herself from the wreckage, criticising not only Gillard’s carbon dioxide tax but her Fair Work Act..'



Ms Ridout's patronage is something the government needs, and it's telling that it has largely been withdrawn.



> Tend to agree with the notion of installing Martin Ferguson or Simon Crean to the ALP leadership, and going into damage limitation mode. Otherwise they face a NSW style wipeout next time.



But remember when Simon Crean was leader, he just didn't cut it at all.
Martin Ferguson has more sense than the rest of the party combined, but I'm not sure he's actually leadership material.



> At first I dismissed it as all hyperbowl,.......



Too funny.  I'll never be able to look at the word hyperbole again without mentally pronouncing it Gillard style.
Suspect the new spelling might catch on.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Getting wound up is the Bolta.
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...n_labor_faces_only_catastrophe_under_gillard/



He doesn't stop there.



> This is a man the Gillard Government has paid $170,000 to teach us to follow its global warming faith.





http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...nts/flannery_explains_his_vision_for_us_ants/


----------



## Julia

He has that peculiar intensity of gaze that denotes the fanatic.

The government must be feeling somewhat chagrined about him rather letting the side down with his recent comment that it would take 1000 years for the proposed carbon tax to make even a slightly measurable difference.


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> It will be interesting to watch O'Farrell. Because I think he is going to display a more
> cooperative form of government.
> 
> Cheers





Hopefully O'Farrell will be better than this




> Honeymoon is over, now it's time for truth
> Sean Nicholls
> April 9, 2011
> 
> Barry O'Farrell's post-election honeymoon ended rather abruptly on Sunday. No sooner had he finished overseeing the swearing-in of his cabinet than he was accused of betraying a colleague, undermining a senior minister and gutting the environment department. Not a great start to the second week of government.






> O'Farrell's team opted for spin by suggesting it had been ''elevated'' by its position in the Premier's own department. It was rightly branded as ''laughable'' by his opponents.




Still long way to go before he reaches the lows of the previous incumbents


http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/honeymoon-is-over-now-its-time-for-truth-20110408-1d7fv.html


----------



## Calliope

Rudd will achieve what Abbott can't. He has Gillard "twisting slowly, slowly in the wind". They are now locked into a path of mutual destruction.


----------



## Happy

Scary stuff is that if all the individuals that will be compensated for increased cost of living, means that ones that are not struggling will have to pay more. 

So $800 per household per year will be $0 for unemployed, pensioners and the like and $2,000 or $3,000 for ones that earn average or above average income.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Rudd will achieve what Abbott can't. He has Gillard "twisting slowly, slowly in the wind". They are now locked into a path of mutual destruction.



Agree and it's fascinating to watch.  If you had to put money on the survivor, Calliope, who would it be?


----------



## DB008

Logique said:


> At first I dismissed it as all hyperbowl, but then this, '..Climate Change Minister Greg Combet, a former ACTU boss, was heckled this week by Port Kembla unionists when he tried to tell them it wouldn’t cost them their jobs or a chunk of their wages..',




I still remember seeing Greg Combet on TV years and years ago, caught on CCTV ripping of a car antenna and damaging property during a union rally/protest (maybe the 1998 Australian waterfront dispute, MUA - "Here To Stay", ring any bells??). And this bozo the clown is Climate Change Minister?


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Agree and it's fascinating to watch.  If you had to put money on the survivor, Calliope, who would it be?




Julia, I don't think either will be a winner. They will both self destruct. There will be a massive implosion before the year is out. You can't get away from the fact it is becoming very messy.


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> I still remember seeing Greg Combet on TV years and years ago, caught on CCTV ripping of a car antenna and damaging property during a union rally/protest (maybe the 1998 Australian waterfront dispute, MUA - "Here To Stay", ring any bells??). And this bozo the clown is Climate Change Minister?




I agree with you there is no one in the Labor party that isn't carrying baggage. Most unionist have become desenfranchised with the unions since it went to principal unions at a given site. Then all the companies had to do was threaten the principal union with changing to another union, they then have to toe the company line or lose membership i.e income.
The result is the Labor parties engine room is is falling apart, the grass roots are feeling the party is chardonay socialists from university topped up with ex ACTU dicks that have lost touch. If they don't start and come up with something sensible they will lose even the hard line followers.


----------



## James58209

The government has an opportunity to show some balls in the upcoming federal budget.  But unfortunately they are still terrified of having the opposition ridicule their budget deficits, so they are promising a "tough" budget. Returning the budget to surplus by 2013 would be nice, but at what cost? It looks like medical research will be a big casualty.  The Discoveries Need Dollars campaign is planning rallies in Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide tomorrow.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Agree and it's fascinating to watch.  If you had to put money on the survivor, Calliope, who would it be?




Laurie Oakes puts Rudd in the same category as the three conspirators, Windsor, Oakeshott and Wilkie. She has to bend over backwards to keep them on side. 

Rudd will never be PM again and neither will Gillard. The Gillard government is sowing the seeds for the end of Labor as a viable party. 

It's no wonder Brown is as smug as a rat with a gold tooth. He picks up the pieces after the explosion.


----------



## sails

Is Penny Wong preparing us for cuts to the health budget?  IMO, I think this government should also be looking at other areas such as Rudd's billions of dollars for handouts than hurting the very people who pay the taxes in the first place.  She reckons the health budget has in increased from $10.8 billion in the early 1980s to $130bn in 2010-11.  You wonder why this wasn't looked at BEFORE driving us into debt and giving out money for plasmas in the GFC.  What about the hugely expensive school buildings - some of which are questionable if they were even needed?

It seems this government have all the money they need for the things they want, but very happy to hurt the taxpayers for essential services that should be paid by our taxes.  It is hard to determine just how much this labor government plans to hurt the "working families" that they usually support in this budget and with other questionable policies.

It seems that labor has become far removed from it's origins of a working people's party.

Full article from the Austraian: Only tough budget cuts will avoid inflation 



> In this budget we will have to confront some difficult truths, and the burgeoning growth in health expenditure is one of them. In real terms, our national health expenditure has grown on average at about 5 per cent each year over the past decade, while our economy has grown about 3 per cent each year. So each year we don't just spend more on health, we spend a greater proportion of our collective resources on it. The maths takes you to a hard truth: we either spend less on health or we spend less on something else.


----------



## Logique

Penny Wong, what a performance on Q&A. 

No way was she going to let Greg Hunt say anything about the carbon tax. The business suit cloaks hard left sensibilities. Future leader? In which universe?  

Even Kevin Rudd can admit being wrong Penny. 

Stephen Smith has impressed lately, firm on the ADF.


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> It's no wonder Brown is as smug as a rat with a gold tooth.





LOL watched an interview of Brown the other day your quote summed him up nicely.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Penny Wong, what a performance on Q&A.
> 
> No way was she going to let Greg Hunt say anything about the carbon tax. The business suit cloaks hard left sensibilities. Future leader? In which universe?
> 
> Even Kevin Rudd can admit being wrong Penny.



Poor Pen's defence of the carbon tax went downhill somewhat near the end when she suggested Australians made a choice on this at the last election.

That being said, Greg Hunt's responses to some questions were not particularly articulate and Penny was able to drag him down to her level.


----------



## trainspotter

400 million to be cut back from research ....... I am so glad they spent all that money on pink batts now.

_News broke out last week that the Australian government is planning major cutbacks in the medical research sector. Cuts of AU$ 400 million over the next three years are expected from the National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC), Australia's premier funding body for medical research. Putting this figure in perspective, AU$ 400m accounts for more than a 50% cut in funding._

http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/labcoat-life/take_a_stance_against_medical

http://abc.gov.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2011/3188675.htm    .... well worth the listen.


----------



## joea

Well I am finally convinced that some of this "marijuana" that is being impounded, is finding it way to the Labor politicans in Canberra.

It appears we are going to be taxed "on all and sundry", and any rebates we have will be reduced and so on.

It also appears that the other parties are inhaling some of the smoke!!

This country is in a spiral down, and this minority government is not helping one bit.

Gillard and the economic geniuses that she is utilising, are going round in circles.

God help Australia!!!


----------



## sptrawler

Yes, brilliant the first term of office and they throw money around like drunks. Get rid of a guvnmnt surplus that took years to build up.
Second term in office, they sober up with a hangover and turn all nasty. It will be really interesting to see what happens if they get a third term. Maybe go for counseling about how they managed to increase taxing so much in so little time and blow so much money with nothing to show for it. PRICELESS.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Yes, brilliant the first term of office and they throw money around like drunks. Get rid of a guvnmnt surplus that took years to build up.
> Second term in office, they sober up with a hangover and turn all nasty. It will be really interesting to see what happens if they get a third term. Maybe go for counseling about how they managed to increase taxing so much in so little time and blow so much money with nothing to show for it. PRICELESS.




sptrawler.
The concern I have, is that anything they started they have not finished.
Then they head off in a different direction.

They are like a kid with a heap of new toys and a "concentration span" of 5 minutes.
They are attempting to do "too much too fast", and the result is they have stuffed everything up.


----------



## Logique

Some things are entirely predictable. 

Listen to the national news bulletins today. It's 'tough on welfare Julia' now. People who could work, and should, says our PM, brimming with the righteous zeal of the newly converted, like St Paul on the road to Damascus.


----------



## trainspotter

Logique said:


> Some things are entirely predictable.
> 
> Listen to the national news bulletins today. It's 'tough on welfare Julia' now. People who could work, and should, says our PM, brimming with the righteous zeal of the newly converted, like St Paul on the road to Damascus.




ROFL ...... When the Libs cracked down on the welfare bludgers the opposition (read Labor) were howling like a dog with its balls cut off. Talk about a paradigm shift !

Anyone think it strange as to how only a few years ago the Labor Party was throwing money around like drunken sailors on shore leave and now they are cutting back to balance a budget?? I read one of the posters in here likened them to a Friday Night Binge Drinker where on the night they are shouting everyone at the bar, wake up in the morning covered in their own spew and trying to retrace their steps as to how they got home *AND WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO ALL MY MONEY* ....... finally turning into a nasty hangover whereby it's everybody elses fault.  :


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Some things are entirely predictable.
> 
> Listen to the national news bulletins today. It's 'tough on welfare Julia' now. People who could work, and should, says our PM, brimming with the righteous zeal of the newly converted, like St Paul on the road to Damascus.




And people wonder why the Coalition don't bring out their policies too soon before an election as our predictable Ms Gillard then decides that's a good idea and regurgitates it in a slightly different format...yuk

I don't remember Ms Gillard having any such policy until Abbott came up with it. And I suspect there is little or no thought in her welfare policy - she just can't seem to get Abbott off her mind...lol

Respect is earned and Ms Gillard seems to not care that the electorate do not like having her nose thumbed at them, IMO.


----------



## sails

Here's an article on Gillard jumping on to Abbott's latest policy announcement.  

From SMH: PM's welfare reforms are cliches: Abbott 



> But Mr Abbott insists there is a significant difference between Ms Gillard's speech on welfare and one he delivered a fortnight ago.


----------



## Logique

It was once said, in the early stages of the brainwashing, that all the tax proceeds were coming back to the community. Now Greg Combet is saying only 50% is coming back.

The introductory carbon price, inadequately remediating our evil carbon dioxide behaviour - why wouldn't the carbon price gradually be raised until we were all using candles and hurricane lamps, and cycling to work, 50km away.

How machiavellian of them to give this ministry to Greg Combet, great for his career - not.


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> sptrawler.
> The concern I have, is that anything they started they have not finished.
> Then they head off in a different direction.
> 
> They are like a kid with a heap of new toys and a "concentration span" of 5 minutes.
> They are attempting to do "too much too fast", and the result is they have stuffed everything up.




You have nailed it there. The sad part is, Mum and Dad don't mind forgiving the kids. I don't think Mum and Dad will be as forgiving with the people who are supposed to be running the country with their money. 
What a gem today Labor are going to get tough with the only voters they have left. Talk about going into a tail spin, this is getting better and better.
Now all we need is Swan to pipe up about something, maybe he is smarter than I give him credit for, he is saying nothing.
Well one thing for sure, the Labor party will make some money when they sell the film rights to this debarcle.


----------



## IFocus

trainspotter said:


> ROFL ...... When the Libs cracked down on the welfare bludgers the opposition (read Labor) were howling like a dog with its balls cut off. Talk about a paradigm shift !




Every one keeps harping about the current Labor government being socialists,  where, when?  

There used to be a Bob Hawke surf team of which I was a proud member seems Gillard isn't of the same ilk.


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> Yes, brilliant the first term of office and they throw money around like drunks. Get rid of a guvnmnt surplus that took years to build up.
> Second term in office, they sober up with a hangover and turn all nasty. It will be really interesting to see what happens if they get a third term. Maybe go for counseling about how they managed to increase taxing so much in so little time and blow so much money with nothing to show for it. PRICELESS.






trainspotter said:


> Anyone think it strange as to how only a few years ago the Labor Party was throwing money around like drunken sailors on shore leave and now they are cutting back to balance a budget?? I read one of the posters in here likened them to a Friday Night Binge Drinker where on the night they are shouting everyone at the bar, wake up in the morning covered in their own spew and trying to retrace their steps as to how they got home *AND WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO ALL MY MONEY* ....... finally turning into a nasty hangover whereby it's everybody elses fault.  :




Greats posts. I did in fact laugh out loud on these two! 

Problem is, people who are 18-30 don't see it this way. They have watched "Inconvenient Truth" and vote for the Greens without thinking of the consequences. It's crazy.


----------



## Julia

For some reason unclear to me, there has been quite some discussion in the audio media in the last days about the schools chaplaincy program.  I was vaguely aware of this when mentoring in high schools but didn't give it much thought in what seemed to be pretty clearly a secular environment.

However, this evening on ABC Radio, there is a Religion and Ethics section, wherein the ABC's Religion commentator provided the illuminating fact that Ms Gillard in her election campaign provided $224 million to extend the schools chaplaincy program to the end of 2014.

She apparently did this before receiving the outcome of a review into the program.
Why?  So she could buy the support of the Australian Christian Lobby.

I just wonder how many other obscure programs are receiving our tax dollars courtesy our federal government, either currently or as vote buyers in the campaign, about which we know nothing?

I for one absolutely do not support any tax I have ever paid going to fund a chaplaincy program in our State schools.  If people want their children to have religious education then they can send said children to religiously-based schools.


----------



## trainspotter

IFocus said:


> Every one keeps harping about the current Labor government being socialists,  where, when?
> 
> There used to be a Bob Hawke surf team of which I was a proud member seems Gillard isn't of the same ilk.




Ok you got me IFocus. Let me think about this ....... "The Building Education *REVOLUTION*" for one? Strange use of terminology dontcha think? "The *CITIZENS* Assembly" spring to mind? Lat time I heard "citizens" and "revolution" in the same era I thought Trotsky and Lenin were at it and about it. 

_"Labor believes in a strong role for national government ”” the one institution all Australians truly own and control through our right to vote." Labor "*will not allow the benefits of change to be concentrated in fewer and fewer hands*, or located only in privileged communities. The benefits must be shared by all Australians and all our regions." The Platform and Labor "believe that *all people are created equal* in their entitlement to dignity and respect, and should have an equal chance to achieve their potential."_ - LABOR PARTY IDEALISM

_"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that *all animals are equal.* He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. *But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions,* comrades, and then where should we be?"_ - George Orwell at his finest

Socialism ?????? Smacks of the stuff.


----------



## sptrawler

Gillards next disaster, Wilkie, lets see how this one pans out. Abbott must be giving a sigh of relief he didn't side with the coalition.


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> Gillards next disaster, Wilkie, lets see how this one pans out. Abbott must be giving a sigh of relief he didn't side with the coalition.




Between Wilkie and the Greens, Labor looks like it's surrounded by Nazis. Well according to the media (suprise, suprise)


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Every one keeps harping about the current Labor government being socialists,  where, when?




Redistribution of wealth under the guise of Carbon Tax...here, now.


----------



## boofhead

The welfare reforms will target symptoms of system issues instead of fixing the system welfare recipients operate in.

Talk to enough people involved and you'll find most of the private job agencies do their best to maintain their contracts and in subtle ways rort the system. One good rort is renaming and repackaging inhouse training where they get extra funding.

Getting paid to place people in work is a good motivation but the way the system works/audited appears many agencies are wrongly getting credit for clients getting work.

The DEEWR  phone lines get a good workout with bad client managers doing the wrong thing. I know from experience along the NW of Tasmania there are many issues with client managers. The handful that are any good soon leave the industry so the dregs that know how to work the system maintain their jobs but don't provide good outcomes.


----------



## sptrawler

Even the Unions are turning on the guvnmint, This just gets better and better, what an absolute joke.


----------



## trainspotter

*CONFIDENTIAL Treasury figures showing a $13 billion fall in economic growth this financial year are expected to force drastic cuts to the government's May budget.* 

Treasurer Wayne Swan will announce forecast growth of just 2.25 per cent, much lower than the 3.25 per cent forecast in November and below the 2.5 per cent canvassed in budget meetings just weeks ago, Fairfax newspapers say.

With the Australian economy worth $1.3 trillion a year, a one per cent fall in growth amounts to a $13 billion hit, Fairfax says.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...ay/story-e6frfku0-1226040013359#ixzz0lEMZqOIG

*IMF says it's time to bank cash*

GLOBAL economies, including Australia, are being given the same advice parents often dispense, bank spare money. 

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is urging all advanced economies, including Australia, to bank excess revenue if their economic growth exceeds expectations.

In its latest Fiscal Monitor, the IMF says risks to government balance sheets remain elevated, noting progress made in some regions has been offset by delays in fiscal consolidation in others.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/imf...sh/story-fn7mjon9-1226038186164#ixzz0lEMP32gY

1) THE cost of projects under the Federal Government's *$16.2 billion* school infrastructure program more than doubles from initial estimates by the time builders start work. 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ble-quoted-price/story-e6freuzr-1225842172819

2) After spending *$2.45 billion *on ceiling insulations, a third of which appear to be faulty or dangerous according to a review of almost 14,000 homes earlier this year, taxpayers will be forced to pay another *$424 million,* if not more, to sort out the dangerous mess.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...t-costly-lessons/story-e6frg71x-1225939909818

3) Once Senator Wong spends the full *$3.1 billion* the government has allocated to buying irrigators' water entitlements, she will have wiped out 13,669 jobs in irrigated agriculture. That's before we even start talking about the flow-on effects to the rest of the community.

http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2010/02/26/160561_opinion-news.html

4) The Rudd Government has agreed alter its *$42 billion *stimulus package, reducing cash payments to eligible taxpayers by $50 dollars to $900 after pressure from crossbench senators.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/r...ulus-package-20090212-85e0.html#ixzz0lEQRH9k7

*GOSH* ....... if they had not chucked away all of this money in the first place then where would we be now?


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Even the Unions are turning on the guvnmint, This just gets better and better, what an absolute joke.



 Yes, when you have business and owners in agreement such as is happening, particularly in the steel industry, the government must be getting very nervous indeed.

And the Opposition is not losing any opportunity to reinforce the disquiet.


----------



## Logique

1975 is a long time ago, but I'm getting a new insight into why a federal opposition thought it necessary to block supply. 

Surely close to or exceeding, the Whitlam government's profligacy? Should we begin watching for mysterious subcontinental financier types at the airports?


----------



## joea

After an excellant summary by "trainspotter", why would anyone believe that the NBN could be built for 36 Bullion. To add a factor to the NBN cost surely you would have to start at "2 by" and think that it could end at "3 by". ( to do what Gillard said she would)

Understanding that the loss by Labor in NSW was a result of policy by the same faceless men who supported Gillard, the australian people deserve to be concerned.

Surely a move is near to stop Gillard  destroying the Australian economy. One would think the mining industry is the only thing holding our head above water.

As Windsor will not be going around again, will he be the one to "see the light".
He can go out a retired hero by stopping this foolish "spendathon".

Somebody  has to "stop the rot". Or is the Budget the "achilles heel"?


----------



## sails

joea said:


> ...As Windsor will not be going around again, will he be the one to "see the light".
> He can go out a retired hero by stopping this foolish "spendathon"...




I think Windsor will want to prolong his day in the sun and extract as much in the way of "pork barrelling" in an effort to redeem himself to his electorate.

I guess any one of the indies could be the hero to rid Australia of this struggling minority government whose leader seems to think she has a mandate for her ideals.  She doesn't seem to understand that leading a minority government means she didn't win.

However, I suspect that all the indies know they have very little prospect of continuing their political careers (unless they become labor pollies) that it is more likely they will allow this untenable situation to drag out for as long as possible.


----------



## Logique

https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa...xY2oCA&usg=AFQjCNHCNFLAc-nDv41_Vts2zYq9hghtmQ

"Labor's stocks are at a *15-year low *and the party would lose *in a landslide *if an election were held today, according to the latest Nielsen poll.

The latest Nielsen poll, published in Fairfax newspapers, shows the coalition has opened a 56 to 44-point lead against Labor, and the ALP's primary vote is at its lowest in 15 years as the community reacts negatively to the proposed tax on carbon emissions. 

The two-party gap of 12 points - with Labor down two points and the coalition up two since last month - is the *biggest coalition lead since 2005*. 

If an election were held now, there would be a landslide six per cent swing on these figures, Fairfax newspapers say. 

For the first time, *Ms Gillard trails Mr Rudd *as Labor leader - by 38 to 55 percentage points. 

Labor's primary vote has fallen two points to 31 per cent, while the coalition's primary vote is up two points to 47 per cent. The Greens remain steady on 12 per cent. 

But Liberal leader Tony Abbott has his own worries, with deposed leader Malcolm Turnbull drawing further ahead as preferred party boss 41-28 points. 

Ms Gillard has never been more on the nose with voters. Her approval rating is at its worst (45 per cent, down two points) and her disapproval rating at its highest (50 per cent, up three points) since she became prime minister, giving her a 'net negative' of five points during this survey. 

Mr Abbott's approval is down one point to 42 per cent, his lowest since June last year, while 51 per cent disapprove of him (down one). 

But Ms Gillard still leads Mr Abbott as preferred prime minister - by eight points (50-42 points). However, the gap has closed by a point to its narrowest since August. 

The survey of 1400 people was taken between Thursday and Saturday last week."


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> For the first time, *Ms Gillard trails Mr Rudd *as Labor leader - by 38 to 55 percentage points.




Rudd will not move on Gillard. She will self-destruct. Rudd's strategy will be the one that Keating adopted with Hewson;

*"The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm out of this load of rubbish over a number of months. There will be no easy execution for you."*


----------



## trainspotter

*GOSH* 31 % primary vote eh? People prefer Rudd to Gillard eh?

The poll said support for Labor was the lowest it had been in 15 years.

Ming Pong Kluddy will be popping an extra bottle of Bolly on ice darlinks.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Rudd will not move on Gillard. She will self-destruct. Rudd's strategy will be the one that Keating adopted with Hewson;
> 
> *"The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm out of this load of rubbish over a number of months. There will be no easy execution for you."*



 There has been no one like Keating.  How colourless the political landscape is without him.

Further interest is added today with Barnaby Joyce saying he is considering running for a lower house seat in New England, against Tony Windsor.
Given Mr Windsor has probably done his chips in this electorate by so going against the electorate's wishes, and will choose to retire rather than be ignominiously beaten, Barnaby would probably be a shoo-in here.


----------



## moXJO

To put it kindly the Gillard government looks like hammered $hit. Damn shame an election is so far off.


----------



## white_goodman

moXJO said:


> To put it kindly the Gillard government looks like hammered $hit. Damn shame an election is so far off.




double dissolution, lets hope


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> There has been no one like Keating.  How colourless the political landscape is without him.
> 
> Further interest is added today with Barnaby Joyce saying he is considering running for a lower house seat in New England, against Tony Windsor.
> Given Mr Windsor has probably done his chips in this electorate by so going against the electorate's wishes, and will choose to retire rather than be ignominiously beaten, Barnaby would probably be a shoo-in here.




I sometimes wonder if the Indies have been offered labor seats for the next election - could be all part of the plan to keep them on side...


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> After an excellant summary by "trainspotter", why would anyone believe that the NBN could be built for 36 Bullion. To add a factor to the NBN cost surely you would have to start at "2 by" and think that it could end at "3 by". ( to do what Gillard said she would)
> 
> Understanding that the loss by Labor in NSW was a result of policy by the same faceless men who supported Gillard, the australian people deserve to be concerned.
> 
> Surely a move is near to stop Gillard  destroying the Australian economy. One would think the mining industry is the only thing holding our head above water.
> 
> As Windsor will not be going around again, will he be the one to "see the light".
> He can go out a retired hero by stopping this foolish "spendathon".
> 
> Somebody  has to "stop the rot". Or is the Budget the "achilles heel"?




Actually recently the guvnmint has stopped doing anything, reversal on the medical research, reversal on the cut to child minding, reversal on tendering process for N.B.N.
I definately think they have $!!!!!!!!!!!!!!t, you know what themselves. Now comes the backfilling of the holes they have dug, it is a shame they think the electorate is still that stupid.
I really think they have blown it and now anything they do will be recieved with ridicule.
They first lost credibility when Rudd came out  and said, we will cover bank deposits to the tune of $25,000/ person. Then hours later after a call from who knows where(we can guess), with chest measurement 3"bigger, we will cover accounts to $1,000,000.
Then came the stupid spendathon, the goon parade, now the same goons are telling you that they have to tax the crap out of you because there is no money.
But hello, didn't that happen last time labor was in, then liberal/nats had to tax the crap out of us to pay back that labor stuff up.
Lucky there is some "normal working class famillies" that can suffer to pay for it. LOL


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> Actually recently the guvnmint has stopped doing anything, reversal on the medical research, reversal on the cut to child minding, reversal on tendering process for N.B.N....



And the Dental care scheme has gone too, which the Greens wanted, they won't be happy. 
What a joke the NBN administration. No company will tender anywhere near the price budgeted for. Where's the big black hole in the budget now Mr Swan!


----------



## joea

Politics is now moving into " a fear campaign".
Swan statement " the budget will be tough". To soften us up.

Shortly he is going to media to tell us how tough.
His message to the public will be " take a spoonful of cement " and toughen up!

Then we will finally have a released budget.

My memory may not be perfect, but I thought the government in the past  just released a budget and that was that.  over and out.
Or is this political spin and rhetoric by Swan while Gillard is overseas.?
Or  is the spotlight being taken away from "the carbon tax".?

Oh well time will tell. Easy to work out the coalition's campaign for next election.
"Labor, lies , lies and more lies". "Labor ,taxes, taxes and more taxes".


----------



## Logique

Decent encapsulation of how things stand, and from a former Labor staffer. 
The people didn't leave Labor, it has left them, retreated to inner-city coffee shops, where the world seems simple to young urban professionals in protected jobs, on the drip-feed of parental leave and child care rebates.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...olumn_abbott_drinks_labors_beer/#commentsmore
"..Then union leaders such as Howes and pragmatic MPs such as former ACTU president Martin Ferguson will, with luck, finally drag the party out of the grasp of the green-hearts and salvation-seeking lawyers and apparatchiks and place it again in the callused hands of those who delight in building, digging, making and solving stuff. 

Then, please, humbler Australians can once more live their own dreams, and not those of another Labor moraliser, with the wisdom of a textbook and more love of power than love of this land and those who call it home."


----------



## sptrawler

WELL it had to come, Swan has opened his mouth and what a classic, "The last coalition government made more money from their minerals boom than we will".
Well DUHHHH they actually used it to pay off the debt you left them and guess what you will be leaving them another debt to pay off. All you had to do was manage the only economy in surplus and what did you do, blow it in 1 term of office.
These goons just reinforce the the call for an I.Q test for politicians.
It actually doesn't matter whether you make more or less money, you mismanage it anyway.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> WELL it had to come, Swan has opened his mouth and what a classic, "The last coalition government made more money from their minerals boom than we will".
> Well DUHHHH they actually used it to pay off the debt you left them and guess what you will be leaving them another debt to pay off. All you had to do was manage the only economy in surplus and what did you do, blow it in 1 term of office.
> These goons just reinforce the the call for an I.Q test for politicians.
> It actually doesn't matter whether you make more or less money, you mismanage it anyway.




And to make things worse, the latest news indicates there are still one million homes to be inspected for faulty pink bats and it is possible 8% could prove to be defective. What a disgrace. What a typical Labor debacle!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sptrawler

Actually, noco, Ronald McDonald could win the next election. All Abott has to do is not blow his feet off.  
Having said that, it is a big call for Tony not to shoot from the hip


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> And to make things worse, the latest news indicates there are still one million homes to be inspected for faulty pink bats and it is possible 8% could prove to be defective. What a disgrace. What a typical Labor debacle!!!!!!!!!!




As I heard this news, one in four installations of non-foil insulation has proven to be improperly installed.


----------



## Julia

Realistic comment by Michael Pascoe about the forthcoming budget.

I hadn't actually realised that pretty wealthy people still get taxpayer subsidised child care, and that even stay at home mothers get this.
Why are we paying women who choose to 'stay home to look after their children' childcare fees?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/federal-budget/wayne-swans-phoney-war-20110420-1do8f.html


----------



## Wysiwyg

sptrawler said:


> Actually, noco, Ronald McDonald could win the next election. All Abott has to do is not blow his feet off.
> Having said that, it is a big call for Tony not to shoot from the hip



Abbot -- the typical polly that will change with the wind until elected. No doubt Julia got the sympathy vote last election after being the first female Prime Minister for a short period. As a person I think Julia is a lovely woman but the Labor party has made some unpopular ill-thought-out decisions.


----------



## sptrawler

WYsiwygigywaterver, Ill thought out decisions is an understatement. Labor have completelly lost touch with their roots, "the working class familly" they keep refering to are the ones they are hammering the $.............t out of.
I know a couple of deaf people that earn a really small income, but get a great deal of self esteem from being a productive member of society. Guess what, because they earn an income they can't access the the guvnmint hearing services. So they have to buy hearing aids from private suppliers.
If they gave up work they would get aids worth $12,000 free.  Instead they have to pay $4,000 for crap aids because they work and can't afford the $12grand. Yes this is a guvnmint for the underdog   DON"T THINK SO. This is a guvnmint that is full of university dicks and ex union delegates that have sold their souls to get a pension and have lost any connection to the "working class familly"they ever had. 
Actually it is such a sad state of affairs I don't even want to put up a funny face


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Realistic comment by Michael Pascoe about the forthcoming budget.
> I hadn't actually realised that pretty wealthy people still get taxpayer subsidised child care, and that even stay at home mothers get this.
> Why are we paying women who choose to 'stay home to look after their children' childcare fees? http://www.smh.com.au/business/federal-budget/wayne-swans-phoney-war-20110420-1do8f.html



Don't get me started! Labor would like to means test the private health care rebate (for starters), but somehow the kind of inequities you quote above -go straight through to the keeper.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> Don't get me started! Labor would like to means test the private health care rebate (for starters), but somehow the kind of inequities you quote above -go straight through to the keeper.




Yes, it would be nice if the tax system was overhauled and simplified. Someone did a report on this recently but I think all the political parties managed to make it go away.


----------



## drsmith

I'm almost starting to feel sorry for this government,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/21/3197476.htm

almost.

It's somewhat symbolic of their current state. Multiple fires on the deck of the good ship ALP progressively burning it down to the waterline.

I just wish it would sink before it does too much damage to the country as a whole.


----------



## joea

Statement from Ronald Regan

"We don't have a trillion dollar debt because we haven't taxed enough, we have a trillion debt because we spent too much".

Now if I sent this to Wayne Swan, do you think he would get the 'drift"?
Well I just wonder!!!!


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> I'm almost starting to feel sorry for this government,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/21/3197476.htm
> 
> almost.
> 
> It's somewhat symbolic of their current state. Multiple fires on the deck of the good ship ALP progressively burning it down to the waterline.
> 
> I just wish it would sink before it does too much damage to the country as a whole.



Yes, for a while we collectively seemed to regard the various stuff ups by the government with irritation and scorn.

But I've noticed recently this has turned to real concern and dismay on just the basis expressed above by drsmith.  We should all be really worried imo.

A small positive in "7.30" this evening where, for the first time, Leigh Sales actually got quite aggressive with Chris Bowen over the dismal failure of their asylum seeker policy.  I've never seen Mr Bowen so defensive and flustered.  Hope this is a sign of things to come for this program which has been very lacking in substance since Kerry O'Brien retired.

For a bit of light relief, someone sent me the following which I really liked:



> Walking Eagle
> 
> 
> On a recent trip to the United States, Julia Gillard, Prime Minister of Australia, addressed a major gathering of Red Indians.
> 
> She spoke for almost an hour on her plans for Carbon Trading Tax for Australia.
> 
> At the conclusion of her speech, the crowd presented her with a plaque inscribed with her new Indian name - Walking Eagle.
> 
> A very chuffed & proud Ms Gillard then departed in her motorcade, waving to the crowds.
> 
> A news reporter later asked one of the Indians how they came to select the new name given to Ms Gillard.
> 
> They explained that Walking Eagle is the name given to a bird so full of **** that it can no longer fly.


----------



## bigdog

http://www.asra.org.au/smf/index.php?topic=2749.0

*Kevin was awarded the same title in 2009*

 Re: Kev 07 
 « Reply #1 on: July 19, 2009, 16:37:14 PM  »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   On a  recent trip to the U.S.A., Australian Prime Minister  Kevin Rudd was invited to address  a  major gathering of the American Indian Nations  in Kitimat, B.C. due to his  experiences in handling the Australian Indigenous situation  in Australia

He  spoke for almost an hour on his ideas for increasing every First  Nation's present standard of living.

At  the conclusion of his speech, the tribes presented the Prime  Minister with a plaque inscribed with his new Indian name  - Walking Eagle.

The  proud Rudd then  departed with his entourage, waving to the  crowd as he  left.  

A news  reporter later asked the chiefs how they came to select the new  name given to Rudd.

They  explained that Walking  Eagle is the name given to a bird so full of sxxx, it can no longer fly.


----------



## Wysiwyg

sptrawler said:


> I know a couple of deaf people that earn a really small income, but get a great deal of self esteem from being a productive member of society. Guess what, because they earn an income they can't access the the guvnmint hearing services. So they have to buy hearing aids from private suppliers.
> If they gave up work they would get aids worth $12,000 free.  Instead they have to pay $4,000 for crap aids because they work and can't afford the $12grand. Yes this is a guvnmint for the underdog   DON"T THINK SO.



Another case showing the inefficient government support systems presently in place. The funds distributors don't mind throwing money at couples who choose (or accidently ) to reproduce and the countless fat-lazies out there sucking on the taxpayer's teat.

One big happy family isn't it, Government reps????? Get real and get real quick.


----------



## drsmith

Laurie Oakes's obituary:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/federal-labor-looks-dead-and-buried/story-fn56baaq-1226043466557



> The Labor MP said: "My branches are bleeding. We are losing long-standing Labor voters, traditional supporters. Our base is collapsing."


----------



## sptrawler

Good pick up DrSmith, 
This forum has been saying this Labor government is completely out of touch since it came into office. When it started going on about "the normal Australian family" it was obvious they didn't have a clue what it was. They still haven't worked out the "normal Australian Family".


----------



## trainspotter

FEDERAL public servants will spend at least *$1.5 billion on airfares *over three years, according to new tender documents, despite attempts to reduce travel costs and bargain for bulk discounts.

The estimated domestic travel bill for the government is $1,031,549,723 between July 2010 and June 2013, enough for 975,000 business class return flights between Canberra and Melbourne. About $488 million is expected to go to international travel, excluding charter flights.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/federal-travel-costs-15bn-20110420-1dox9.html#ixzz0lskJrTk3

Oh My Goodness ..........


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Laurie Oakes's obituary:
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/federal-labor-looks-dead-and-buried/story-fn56baaq-1226043466557




As GG says, Tony Abbott will be Prime Minister before Xmas 2011 and after reading Laurie Oakes thought, I now tend to agree with GG.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai..._its_taken_laurie_to_see_gillard_is_finished/


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Laurie Oakes's obituary:http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/federal-labor-looks-dead-and-buried/story-fn56baaq-1226043466557



Policy vacuum combined with ruthless ambition and arrogance. A bad mix. The minders and advisors are as much to blame. Have we seen a political leader so poorly advised?







> The way Scales sees it, Labor must now be so desperate that -- behind the scenes -- "all options would be up for consideration".
> I'm sure he is right about the desperation, but some options are not readily available. Knifing another leader would be more likely to alienate voters further than to attract them.
> And, having dumped a carbon price plan once under Rudd, Labor can hardly try that again either.
> The only viable option may indeed be to pray for a political miracle.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> Policy vacuum combined with ruthless ambition and arrogance. A bad mix. The minders and advisors are as much to blame. Have we seen a political leader so poorly advised?




Logique, how can Gillard pray if she is an atheist? She is going, going, gone and not even the Governor General can save her let alone God.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> Policy vacuum combined with ruthless ambition and arrogance. A bad mix. The minders and advisors are as much to blame. Have we seen a political leader so poorly advised?




I agree with the howling mob here I think labors gone that's why I am voting for Barnaby, only he can save Australia from Abbott.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> Good pick up DrSmith,
> This forum has been saying this Labor government is completely out of touch since it came into office. When it started going on about "the normal Australian family" it was obvious they didn't have a clue what it was. They still haven't worked out the "normal Australian Family".




Are they like those ordinary Australians Abbott addressed the other week.............?


----------



## Country Lad

> When it started going on about "the normal Australian family" it was obvious they didn't have a clue what it was.




I am surprised that the politicians (from the government side in particular) are still using the term "working families".  It is such an overused term and continually gives the impression that they are ignoring the non family units, the retirees (independent and pensioners) and anybody else not in a family or working, thus getting these groups further offside.  

As an independent retiree I find their concentration on "working families" quite insulting and objectionable.

Cheers
CL


----------



## sails

trainspotter said:


> FEDERAL public servants will spend at least *$1.5 billion on airfares *over three years, according to new tender documents, despite attempts to reduce travel costs and bargain for bulk discounts.
> 
> The estimated domestic travel bill for the government is $1,031,549,723 between July 2010 and June 2013, enough for 975,000 business class return flights between Canberra and Melbourne. About $488 million is expected to go to international travel, excluding charter flights.
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/federal-travel-costs-15bn-20110420-1dox9.html#ixzz0lskJrTk3
> 
> Oh My Goodness ..........




Yes, it goes to show that the $1.8b required for Qld flood repairs is nothing more than small change for the government.  I am convinced Ms Gillard preferred to tax the people than dig up available small change.  She won that round, then it was on to carbon tax...

How does she expect to earn respect from the people with these antics?

An early election (and soon) will be the miracle for which many are hoping...


----------



## Julia

Country Lad said:


> I am surprised that the politicians (from the government side in particular) are still using the term "working families".  It is such an overused term and continually gives the impression that they are ignoring the non family units, the retirees (independent and pensioners) and anybody else not in a family or working, thus getting these groups further offside.
> 
> As an independent retiree I find their concentration on "working families" quite insulting and objectionable.
> 
> Cheers
> CL



Agree.  Though I'd had the impression that they had finally woken up to the stupidity of "working families" as a mantra, and have rather been substituting "The Australian People".


----------



## noco

noco said:


> Logique, how can Gillard pray if she is an atheist? She is going, going, gone and not even the Governor General can save her let alone God.




I would say the Governor General would prefer to see her son-in-law Billy (ie.Shorten) be our next Prime Minister or perhaps I should say opposition leader of the Labor party come Xmas 2011. 

But then again the socialist left Governor General might find herself out on the street after the next election.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> I would say the Governor General would prefer to see her son-in-law Billy (ie.Shorten) be our next Prime Minister or perhaps I should say opposition leader of the Labor party come Xmas 2011.



What are the circumstances amongst which you think the government will be replaced by Christmas 2011?

Unless something untoward happens, don't they have about two plus years until an election has to happen?  Plenty of time for the carbon tax to be legislated and untold destruction to be further wreaked on the economy and the people.

Why is there such an assumption that Bill Shorten will be Prime Minister?  Or Greg Combet for that matter?
Both have had minimal experience in any senior role and neither, imo, look even remotely like PM material.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> What are the circumstances amongst which you think the government will be replaced by Christmas 2011?
> 
> Unless something untoward happens, don't they have about two plus years until an election has to happen?  Plenty of time for the carbon tax to be legislated and untold destruction to be further wreaked on the economy and the people.
> 
> Why is there such an assumption that Bill Shorten will be Prime Minister?  Or Greg Combet for that matter?
> Both have had minimal experience in any senior role and neither, imo, look even remotely like PM material.




Julia, I believe there are a couple of things which prompts me to believe there could be a change of government by Xmas 2011.

Firstly, Ms Gillard and Greg Combet are losing a lot of support from not only the public but from industry groups, the unions and just quietly from inside her own party. It all started with the lie that she would not bring in a carbon dioxide tax during her term of government viz 2010/2013. It has made her so weak, it will very hard for her to claw her way back

Secondly, it is now starting to sink into voters that this carbon dioxide tax is not about reducing global warming/climate change, but to fill the treasury coffers to pay for all the stuff ups Labor has made and that has cost the tax payers dearly. The $900 Labor paid to taxpayers as a stimulas, and as you know pensioners missed out, Labor is virtually saying we now want it back; it was just a loan. And don't forget Gillard and Combet have committed 10% of the carbon dioxide tax on top of the $599 million contribution to the UN climate change committee of which Kevin 11 is is a member.

If by virtue of the fact that one or two of the independants start to rebel and Gillard loses her fight to succeed with the carbon dioxide tax, there has to be a move of no confidence in her and that she will be asked to resign or go to an election. If that is the senario, then Labor will finish up like the NSW election. All over 'RED ROVER'. To top it all off the asylum seekers disaster is another nail in her coffin.

With regards to Bill Shorten, there is no assumption on my part about him becoming leader of the Labor Party, I merely made a comment that he is the Governor General's son-in-law and I am sure she would dearly love to have him in that position. You know what I mean, sort of keep it in the family.LOL.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Julia, I believe there are a couple of things which prompts me to believe there could be a change of government by Xmas 2011.
> 
> Firstly, Ms Gillard and Greg Combet are losing a lot of support from not only the public but from industry groups, the unions and just quietly from inside her own party. It all started with the lie that she would not bring in a carbon dioxide tax during her term of government viz 2010/2013. It has made her so weak, it will very hard for her to claw her way back
> 
> Secondly, it is now starting to sink into voters that this carbon dioxide tax is not about reducing global warming/climate change, but to fill the treasury coffers to pay for all the stuff ups Labor has made and that has cost the tax payers dearly. The $900 Labor paid to taxpayers as a stimulas, and as you know pensioners missed out,



  I thought people receiving government pensions did receive a stimulus payment, maybe in 2008, or early 2009.  I quite clearly remember speaking to some retirees  who received an additional payment.
Would like to see some substantiation for non-payment suggestion to pensioners.



> If by virtue of the fact that one or two of the independants start to rebel and Gillard loses her fight to succeed with the carbon dioxide tax, there has to be a move of no confidence in her and that she will be asked to resign or go to an election. If that is the senario, then Labor will finish up like the NSW election. All over 'RED ROVER'. To top it all off the asylum seekers disaster is another nail in her coffin.



Yes, we know all that, noco.  But for the government to have to go to an election will take one of the independents to have a change of heart.  I simply don't believe that will happen, unless circumstances deteriorate substantially from where they are now.
For any of the independents to switch sides would result in huge loss of face for them and I don't think any of them would be up for it.


----------



## Julia

Since posting the above, I've found this link which shows pensioners did receive a $1000 stimulus payment.



> Economic Stimulus Payment for Australian Pensioners
> By Admin, on October 17th, 2008
> 
> Q. What is the Economic Stimulus Payment for Australian Pensioners?
> 
> A. This payment will provide income support pensioners with immediate financial help in the lead up to comprehensive reform of the pension system. It will also strengthen the national economy and support Australian households, given the risk of a deep and prolonged global economic slowdown. (Because it is targeted at Australian pensioners and self-funded retirees, it will only be paid to Australian residents or those Australians who are temporarily absent Ã¢€“ overseas residents do not qualify.)
> 
> Q. How much is the payment?
> 
> A. The payment is a one-off non-taxable amount of $1,400 to single pensioners and $2,100 ($1,050 each) to pensioner couples.
> 
> Q. Do I have to claim the payment?
> 
> A. No. It will be paid into the same account as your Utilities Allowance or Seniors Concession Allowance.
> 
> Q. When will the payment be paid?
> 
> A. This payment will be made in the period commencing 8 December 2008. For DVA pensioners that means 18 December 2008.
> 
> Q. Which pensioners are eligible for the payment?
> 
> A. Any pensioner who is qualified for Utilities Allowance on 14 October 2008.
> 
> For DVA pensioners this means those eligible for age/invalidity or partner service pension, or income support supplement, will receive a payment of $1,400 if they are single or $1,050 to each member of a pensioner couple, regardless of their age. This includes those Social Security age pensioners paid by DVA.
> 
> Q. Which self funded retirees are eligible for the payment?
> 
> A. Any self-funded retiree over pension age who is qualified for Seniors Concession Allowance on 14 October 2008. Those who hold a Commonwealth Seniors Health Card or are Gold Card holders eligible for Seniors Concession Allowance will receive a payment of $1,400 if they are single or $1,050 for each member of a couple.
> 
> Q. How will the payment impact on people?
> 
> A. The payment is not taxable and will not be classed as income under the pension means test. However, if it is invested it will be subject to deeming, like any other financial investment.
> 
> Q. What is the policy rationale?
> 
> A. In these tough economic times the Australian Government is acting decisively to use the surplus to strengthen the Australian economy. These payments are also intended to provide additional support in the months between now and when long-term pension reforms are introduced after the next Budget.




So,noco, not sure why you would be posting that pensioners did not receive any additional payment.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I thought people receiving government pensions did receive a stimulus payment, maybe in 2008, or early 2009.  I quite clearly remember speaking to some retirees  who received an additional payment.
> Would like to see some substantiation for non-payment suggestion to pensioners.
> 
> Yes, we know all that, noco.  But for the government to have to go to an election will take one of the independents to have a change of heart.  I simply don't believe that will happen, unless circumstances deteriorate substantially from where they are now.
> For any of the independents to switch sides would result in huge loss of face for them and I don't think any of them would be up for it.




Well Julia, as a part pensioner myself, I must have been behind the door when they were given out because one certainly did not come my way. Perhaps those retirees were paying taxes above the threshold on their property or other investments which entitled them to the $900.


Julia, what makes you think circumstances have not deteriorated substantially to this point already. Just have a look at the polls. The lowest point of Labor's primary vote in 15 years is enough to convince any sound thinking voter that Labor is on the brink of collapse. If their popularity continues on this trend, Gillard is finished, but then again we will just have to wait and see in the next few months whether my predictions are right or wrong.


----------



## joea

Lindsay Tanners book "SIDESHOW: DUMBING DOWN DEMOCRACY"
may not help Gillard much in the pols.

WARNING: The book contains painful truths for journalists and politicans.


----------



## sptrawler

The press seems to be getting on board, so does Lindsay Tanner. He doesn't sound too enthralled with his beloved party.
Also we are now starting to get the backbenchers revolting over the perks given to the independents. Just a matter of time before the infighting comes out and then Gillard will be fighting the factions in public.
I don't know what the catalyst will be, but the next election is probably another leader away for labor. Even though that would be suicidal they will have to be getting desperate as the polls continue to slump.
I still think one or two of the independents will jump ship to save their skins. When have you seen a politician let principles get in the way of a government pension.


----------



## Calliope

Let's hope Julia took the "Made in China" labels off the toy koalas before she handed them out to the Japanese tsunami victims.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Well Julia, as a part pensioner myself, I must have been behind the door when they were given out because one certainly did not come my way. Perhaps those retirees were paying taxes above the threshold on their property or other investments which entitled them to the $900.



No, you would not have received the $900 because you would presumably have already received the greater amount of $1400 a few months earlier.  I'm not going to look it all up again today but the group who received the $1400 obviously wouldn't expect to get the $900 as well.
Didn't you get the $1400?
If not, you probably should follow it up.





> Julia, what makes you think circumstances have not deteriorated substantially to this point already. Just have a look at the polls. The lowest point of Labor's primary vote in 15 years is enough to convince any sound thinking voter that Labor is on the brink of collapse. If their popularity continues on this trend, Gillard is finished, but then again we will just have to wait and see in the next few months whether my predictions are right or wrong.



Yes, agree, but I'm simply trying to be objective about the political reality of Labor dumping yet another leader.  I think they will try absolutely to tough it out because to drop Ms Gillard would make them the laughing stock of all time, even more than they are now.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Since posting the above, I've found this link which shows pensioners did receive a $1000 stimulus payment.
> 
> 
> 
> So,noco, not sure why you would be posting that pensioners did not receive any additional payment.




There seems to be some conflict of what you have and what I have. I can assure you I missed out and at the time I queried it with the appropiate authorities.

http://www.examiner.com.au/news/loc...s-out-as-rich-get-900-cash-bonus/1451266.aspx


----------



## Country Lad

Last year, the soldiers of D Company, 6th Battalion Royal Australian Regiment were belatedly awarded a Unit Citation for Gallantry (UCG) for their gallant deeds at Long Tan, Vietnam 18 August 1966. 

The Government refused to approve payment for members & families (including family of deceased soldiers) to travel to Canberra for a ceremony by the Governor General to award the UCG.

Compare this to the aftermath of the unfortunate event where the boatful of “refugees” sank at Christmas Island.  

The same government had no problem with flying to Sydney the illegals who survived, and the people who claimed they were relatives or friends of the people who died.  This included paying for flights, accommodation and meals.

In other words the government considered the illegals more important than the soldiers (and their families) who fought or who died fighting, for our country.


----------



## noco

Julia, I believe where we are in conflict is the $1400 was paid to a single pensioner living alone and as you are aware, I have a working wife who did receive the $900.



http://financeviewpoint.com/2008/10/australian-stimulus-plan-short-term.html


----------



## Logique

I'm unclear on the pensioners, and which class of eligibility applied.

For the general populace, to get the $900, you had to have submitted a tax return in the previous period, showing a tax liability, upon which the $900 was a rebate. It was grossly unfair because those at the bottom of the socio-economic scale got nothing, because they had no taxable income. 

But plenty of the better off missed out too, because their managed affairs showed no payable taxable.

It's a great fear with carbon tax compensation. If the tax rebate route is taken, the same people will miss out again.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> I'm unclear on the pensioners, and which class of eligibility applied.
> 
> For the general populace, to get the $900, you had to have submitted a tax return in the previous period, showing a tax liability, upon which the $900 was a rebate. It was grossly unfair because those at the bottom of the socio-economic scale got nothing, because they had no taxable income.
> 
> But plenty of the better off missed out too, because their managed affairs showed no payable taxable.
> 
> It's a great fear with carbon tax compensation. If the tax rebate route is taken, the same people will miss out again.




Yes Logique, that is exactly the problem. 

If Gillard starts this carbon dioxide tax say at $25 per tonne and comes up with some compensation, you can bet your boots that figure will rise each year and the compensation will remain static and yes pensioners and low income earners will miss ouy again. It will be in the form of a tax rebate and if you don't pay tax, stiff bickies.


----------



## noco

Boy oh boy, I wonder what else Tanner will reveal!!! He is certainly showing up the true colours of Rudd and Gillard and the ABC also.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...s/tanner_unleashes_on_gillard_and_rudds_spin/


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Boy oh boy, I wonder what else Tanner will reveal!!! He is certainly showing up the true colours of Rudd and Gillard and the ABC also.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...s/tanner_unleashes_on_gillard_and_rudds_spin/




I do not think it will reveal all.

However Julia Gillard does not particulary care. She is the first female Prime Minister, she did rub Abbotts nose in it.
If she gets her perks for the position, she will be set up.
She has got her glory of trips overseas.
I believe she probably took acting classes when she was young.

What the Australian voter has to absorb, is forget the past and plan for the future with their vote.
Cheers


----------



## sptrawler

Talking about the ABC, noco, it is a testament to John Howard's skills as a politician. That Kerry O'Brien failed to upset him despite his best efforts. 
The labor party must be very disapointed with the demise of Kerry the new generation of presenters don't seem to be as biased. It may be due to general public demanding a better performance from their presenters as well as their politicians.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Talking about the ABC, noco, it is a testament to John Howard's skills as a politician. That Kerry O'Brien failed to upset him despite his best efforts.
> The labor party must be very disapointed with the demise of Kerry the new generation of presenters don't seem to be as biased. It may be due to general public demanding a better performance from their presenters as well as their politicians.




Well it realy made my day when Barry O'Farrell ignored Kerry on the night Barry was elected, and said he would only talk to Gladys on the panel.
I refilled my gass with a red. It was the highlight of the year as far as I was concerned.
Cheers


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Talking about the ABC, noco, it is a testament to John Howard's skills as a politician. That Kerry O'Brien failed to upset him despite his best efforts.
> The labor party must be very disapointed with the demise of Kerry the new generation of presenters don't seem to be as biased. It may be due to general public demanding a better performance from their presenters as well as their politicians.




Yes, I have lost count of the number of times I complained to the ABC. They shielded this inept Labor Government for too long.


----------



## Logique

joea said:


> Well it realy made my day when Barry O'Farrell ignored Kerry on the night Barry was elected, and said he would only talk to Gladys on the panel.
> I refilled my gass with a red. It was the highlight of the year as far as I was concerned.
> Cheers



Times 2 there Joea, that moment said it all didn't it. I've since heard many stories about election night celebrations, just regular folks in the 'burbs, you'd think Stalin had retreated from Warsaw.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Boy oh boy, I wonder what else Tanner will reveal!!! He is certainly showing up the true colours of Rudd and Gillard and the ABC also.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...s/tanner_unleashes_on_gillard_and_rudds_spin/



This government is now no longer being kicked to death. This sorry excuse for a political corpse is now kicked to confirm no signs of life.

Comments to a recent political article (might have been one of Andrew Bolt's) turned to why only the leadership preferences were published as part of Newspoll last week. Speculation was that it was because the poll results were so bad for Labor.

Could Rupy be saving it for post Easter/Anzac Day ?


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Talking about the ABC, noco, it is a testament to John Howard's skills as a politician. That Kerry O'Brien failed to upset him despite his best efforts.



True absolutely.  No one was ever in any doubt as to what John Howard was about.
Don't recall ever seeing him defensive or flustered in the face of any questioning by anyone.  Yet he was never actually rude.



> The labor party must be very disapointed with the demise of Kerry the new generation of presenters don't seem to be as biased. It may be due to general public demanding a better performance from their presenters as well as their politicians.



I can't say I've noticed any better performances from the new 7.30 team.  Quite the contrary.  Last Thursday evening's interview by Leigh Sales with Chris Bowen was the first time I've seen either Sales or Urhlman offer any politician the sort of challenging and insistent questioning that we should reasonably be expecting.

So far, I don't think they live up to the O'Brien standard, even taking into account Mr O'Brien's well known political bias.

Given the total disaster that is the government at present, it's unforgivable from a journalistic point of view that the ABC is not subjecting more government ministers to rigorous questioning.  Ditto the opposition.


----------



## joea

In relation to the current government!

From a desk top Mood Maker.

"NOBODY IS DEFEATED UNTIL THEY START BLAMING SOMEBODY ELSE"
It is my recollection that Gillard started blaming Abbott for "everything and sundry", from day 1.

and to follow that up. 

"REMEMBER, WHEN YOU POINT YOUR FINGER AT SOMEONE THERE ARE THREE POINTING BACK AT YOU"

Cheers.


----------



## medicowallet

joea said:


> Well it realy made my day when Barry O'Farrell ignored Kerry on the night Barry was elected, and said he would only talk to Gladys on the panel.
> I refilled my gass with a red. It was the highlight of the year as far as I was concerned.
> Cheers




It was particularly immature. I don't care how much you despise a person, when you win something like that, you do so with grace, not with arrogance and disrespect.

I am a massive K. O'Brien fan and, currently a massive liberal supporter.

I find it difficult for a Premier to be so disrespectful to one of Australia's most senior and respected hosts. I for one will not toast thuggery, even though it is the typical Australian thing to do, is kick around others when in the position, because I can tell you, the great and strong O'Farrell would not have tried that immaturity in opposition, and his change in personality has left an awfully sour taste in my mouth. His approach seemed to be like a Union boss thug.


----------



## Calliope

medicowallet said:


> It was particularly immature. I don't care how much you despise a person, when you win something like that, you do so with grace, not with arrogance and disrespect.
> 
> I am a massive K. O'Brien fan and, currently a massive liberal supporter.
> 
> I find it difficult for a Premier to be so disrespectful to one of Australia's most senior and respected hosts. I for one will not toast thuggery, even though it is the typical Australian thing to do, is kick around others when in the position, because I can tell you, the great and strong O'Farrell would not have tried that immaturity in opposition, and his change in personality has left an awfully sour taste in my mouth. His approach seemed to be like a Union boss thug.




You have assumed the moral high ground. It will be interesting to see if you can keep  up your *massive* high standards.


----------



## joea

medicowallet said:


> It was particularly immature. I don't care how much you despise a person, when you win something like that, you do so with grace, not with arrogance and disrespect.
> 
> I am a massive K. O'Brien fan and, currently a massive liberal supporter.
> 
> I find it difficult for a Premier to be so disrespectful to one of Australia's most senior and respected hosts. I for one will not toast thuggery, even though it is the typical Australian thing to do, is kick around others when in the position, because I can tell you, the great and strong O'Farrell would not have tried that immaturity in opposition, and his change in personality has left an awfully sour taste in my mouth. His approach seemed to be like a Union boss thug.




My interpretation was that O'Farrel had previously agreed he would only talk to Gladys.
Because he clearly replied to Kerry, that was the agreement. So Kerry was "out of order".
Kerry has a art of extracting a certain strain of answer from politicans and others.
I have seen many interviews where he has questions set up like a lawyer in court.
These type of questions are designed to get biased or unclear answers to make people look like fools.
Those giving the answers are then not allowed to elaborate.
I would rather watch Q & A anytime.

Cheers


----------



## medicowallet

Calliope said:


> You have assumed the moral high ground. It will be interesting to see if you can keep  up your *massive* high standards.




Is that an attempt to usurp me?

I can tell you that whenever I succeed in something I never put the knife into someone so publically and disgracefully. Successful people get to high places making the right connections and friends of enemies, perhaps take note, and if you ever become successful this may assist you.

I doubt many, if any here behave like O'Farrell.

The fact that the person is a public figure is very disheartening.

Or perhaps you support such behaviour?

Perhaps clarifying your position would be a lot more beneficial than trying to ridicule mine.


----------



## Calliope

medicowallet said:


> Is that an attempt to usurp me?
> 
> ...Perhaps clarifying your position would be a lot more beneficial than trying to ridicule mine.




I would never presume to usurp or ridicule someone with such high moral standards,


----------



## medicowallet

Calliope said:


> I would never presume to usurp or ridicule someone with such high moral standards,




I guess your parents never taught you to respect others, especially those who are successful.

I hope this serves you well.


----------



## nulla nulla

joea said:


> Well it realy made my day when Barry O'Farrell ignored Kerry on the night Barry was elected, and said he would only talk to Gladys on the panel.
> I refilled my gass with a red. It was the highlight of the year as far as I was concerned.
> Cheers




The red or Barry O'Feral?  What were you drinking?


----------



## sptrawler

Come on Calliope and medicowallet.
Lets keep it on thread guys you are starting to sound like the government.
"Kev shut up you think you know everything". 
"I do know everything".
"Well you don't know about the knives in you back  B..ch".

The Gillard Government proudly brought to you by Kerry O'Brien. 
Hope they go the same way as Kerry, what a d...k.
Did I say that? O.K I will go and sit in the naughty corner( a lot better than getting the cuts like I got in the old days).
Shutting up and doing as I was told was never my strong point.


----------



## nulla nulla

medicowallet said:


> It was particularly immature. I don't care how much you despise a person, when you win something like that, you do so with grace, not with arrogance and disrespect.
> 
> I am a massive K. O'Brien fan and, currently a massive liberal supporter.
> 
> I find it difficult for a Premier to be so disrespectful to one of Australia's most senior and respected hosts. I for one will not toast thuggery, even though it is the typical Australian thing to do, is kick around others when in the position, because I can tell you, the great and strong O'Farrell would not have tried that immaturity in opposition, and his change in personality has left an awfully sour taste in my mouth. His approach seemed to be like a Union boss thug.




Personaly, I wouldn't read too much into Barry O'Farrells snub to K. O"Brien (they are both Irish). I was more impressed with Barry's snub of Tony Abbott.



Calliope said:


> You have assumed the moral high ground. It will be interesting to see if you can keep  up your *massive* high standards.




Why does this "High Moral Ground" label keep sneaking in when someone voices a dissenting opinion?


----------



## Calliope

medicowallet said:


> I guess your parents never taught you to respect others, especially those who are successful.
> 
> I hope this serves you well.




I fail to see what relevance your gratuitous insults have to this thread. 

Your throwaway line  "Successful people get to high places making the right connections and friends of enemies, perhaps take note, and if you ever become successful this may assist you", and the nonsense above indicate that the great and successful Dr Wallet has a highly inflated ego, and very little respect for others.

It is ironic that you want me to respect you, just because you boast that you are successful. Respect must be earned, and cannot be bought by those with a fat wallet.


----------



## joea

nulla nulla said:


> The red or Barry O'Feral?  What were you drinking?




It was a bin something 2008.
But I cannot get it anymore in Cairns Nth, Qld.
You have made my day.
Comments on forums, should be taken lightly.
Cheers


----------



## nulla nulla

joea said:


> It was a bin something 2008.
> But I cannot get it anymore in Cairns Nth, Qld.
> You have made my day.
> Comments on forums, should be taken lightly.
> Cheers




I'm presently easing my way through the bottom half of a bottle of Wynns Coonawarra Estate Shiraz 2007. The going is fairly smooth and easy. 

Agree "Comments on forums, should be taken lightly." Cuts down on the trolls having a go at each other.

Failing a by-election, I expect the Gillard Government to limp through to the next election. After then there will be a change of Government and the incomming mob will turn out to be just as hopeless. 

Ah.... the consistancies of life. Good red wine and hopeless government.


----------



## sptrawler

Can someone tell me what, high moral ground and succesful, mean. I have never experienced them.


----------



## Julia

nulla nulla said:


> Failing a by-election, I expect the Gillard Government to limp through to the next election. After then there will be a change of Government and the incomming mob will turn out to be just as hopeless.
> 
> Ah.... the consistancies of life. Good red wine and hopeless government.



Ah, such negativity and such realism.



sptrawler said:


> Can someone tell me what, high moral ground and succesful, mean. I have never experienced them.



Not sure, sp, but perhaps what you actually are but lack the arrogance to claim.


----------



## drsmith

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...ilytelegraph/comments/julias_road_to_victory/

Tim Blair must have reached his word limit before he got to the boats.


----------



## Calliope

nulla nulla said:


> Why does this "High Moral Ground" label keep sneaking in when someone voices a dissenting opinion?




It's usually assumed by the Left. It seems strange to see it coming from a guy who claims to be a "massive liberal supporter." But I guess "liberals" come in all shades. However I have been instructed to be more respectful to rich successful people so I will bow out. I will leave it to you to kowtow, if you wish. It is not my style.


----------



## medicowallet

Calliope said:


> I fail to see what relevance your gratuitous insults have to this thread.
> 
> Your throwaway line  "Successful people get to high places making the right connections and friends of enemies, perhaps take note, and if you ever become successful this may assist you", and the nonsense above indicate that the great and successful Dr Wallet has a highly inflated ego, and very little respect for others.
> 
> It is ironic that you want me to respect you, just because you boast that you are successful. Respect must be earned, and cannot be bought by those with a fat wallet.




No, the respect line was for Kerry, champ. I don't care if you respect me, and with your response to my serious post, I doubt you respect anyone apart from yourself. 

As to the successful throw away line bit. Take that one at face value, cause the bugger works. I have many people working for me who I personally despise, but they are awesome at their job. 


You are the one who wrote some tripe saying I was coming from some moral high ground. No. I just respect people who have achieved their position, and Kerry is a professional who deserves greater respect than the O'Farrell gave him, especially in the context that it was in.

P.S. Do I have an overinflated ego and am I arrogant - you bet. Am I in my workplace, or in the real world, not according to others. You see mate, this is a forum and I can assure you that in real life discussions such as these go very differently (you are aware there is a real world?), and successful, arrogant people chew up naive introverts.


----------



## drsmith

The moral high ground is best avoided.

It's too often a place where the rules of engagement are forgotten.

Disclaimer:
That cloud of dust is me, running downhill, as fast as I can.


----------



## sptrawler

medicowallet said:


> No, the respect line was for Kerry, champ. I don't care if you respect me, and with your response to my serious post, I doubt you respect anyone apart from yourself.
> 
> As to the successful throw away line bit. Take that one at face value, cause the bugger works. I have many people working for me who I personally despise, but they are awesome at their job.
> 
> 
> You are the one who wrote some tripe saying I was coming from some moral high ground. No. I just respect people who have achieved their position, and Kerry is a professional who deserves greater respect than the O'Farrell gave him, especially in the context that it was in.
> 
> P.S. Do I have an overinflated ego and am I arrogant - you bet. Am I in my workplace, or in the real world, not according to others. You see mate, this is a forum and I can assure you that in real life discussions such as these go very differently (you are aware there is a real world?), and successful, arrogant people chew up naive introverts.




Jeez medicowallet, go spend a weekend in Kalgoorlie or any other mining town, someone is bound to help you give yourself a colonoscopy. Actually my sons could probably catch up with you at the airport.LOL


----------



## Calliope

medicowallet said:


> I have many people working for me who I personally despise, but they are awesome at their job.



Thanks for this insight into your psyche. QED

Meanwhile back in the real world.


----------



## Logique

Jeez where did all that come from. 

There was no outcry after 'Kerry-gate', and the ABC weren't about to highlight it. It was also my understanding that a pre-interview agreement had been reached that O'Brien then tried to breach by asking questions.

That will be the one and only time in O'Farrell's career you'll see that kind of indulgence, and I think people understood the context. 

Besides, how many times publicly has O'Brien sliced, diced and filleted pollies, usually LNP, and usually interrupting their replies after 5 seconds? So that's one to Barry and 10,000 to Kerry.


----------



## medicowallet

sptrawler said:


> Jeez medicowallet, go spend a weekend in Kalgoorlie or any other mining town, someone is bound to help you give yourself a colonoscopy. Actually my sons could probably catch up with you at the airport.LOL




I came from a mining town, quite fun really.

Colonoscopy... not fun really.

Hopefully they cancel each other out, and thanks for the invite. 

How much do they help with giving you your colonoscopy? Although, personally I would not ever allow my sons to give me one, whatever floats your boat mate, whatever floats your boat. 



Calliope said:


> Thanks for this insight into your psyche. QED




No, you will find that what I said is reflective of the real world.

Are you loved by everyone in your workplace and love them all the same? Grow up and be realistic. 



Logique said:


> Besides, how many times publicly has O'Brien sliced, diced and filleted pollies, usually LNP, and usually interrupting their replies after 5 seconds? So that's one to Barry and 10,000 to Kerry.




You go onto the 7:30 report that is what you get.

You go onto an election show after being elected premier, that is a different situation, and a professional can act accordingly.


----------



## orr

Extremely interesting data on the true analysis of the Home insulation programme, By the CSIRO; and truly disturbing to the hyperbolic hyperbaric conservative containment vessels, enveloped within the threads of this forum.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2011/04/24/the-csiro-gets-hip-to-debunking-media-hysteria/

bit of credit where, where credits due... I doubt it.
A bit of "oh I've been sucked in by a partisan media misinformation campaign" I don't think so.
 My best guess is we'll trumpet ignorance as strength.
I'd much prefer a thoughtful critique of the piece. Any takers?


----------



## trainspotter

Of the 156 fire callouts that occurred under the program (note – not the “hundreds” as some media outfits would have you believe, but 156), _*43% of those fires occurred within 10 days of having the insulation installed*_.

How much have we saved in electricity costs as this was the pretext to install this in the ceilings of the proletariat???? I note that electricity costs have skyrocketed as well. Just as well we have the Pink Batts in the roof saving us from this impost. Now wait a minute. I have had R3.5 batts in my ceiling for 7 years now, well before the HIP came into action. Saving ..... schmaving. 

THE Federal Government is facing fresh criticism about wasting money on the safety clean-up for its controversial roof insulation scheme. Documents show two different inspection companies - one from Surfers Paradise and the other from Sydney - *were sent to the same location* in Hamilton, southwest Victoria, to conduct safety checks for a group of six units.

The Government said it paid reasonable travel costs for inspectors,* but was unable yesterday to detail exactly how much*.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...pection-shambles/story-e6frf7l6-1226020804341

There you go orr. This is the crux of the problem orr. The WASTE that this government calls "management" is the issue here orr.

Don't get me started on the FOUR installers that were killed on the job orr.

1.7 billion spent and a further 400 million to inspect and rectify.

P.S. - The article was NOT by the CSIRO as claimed by orr. It was by a blogger calling themselves "possum comitatus". Yes yes yes the CSIRO DID write a statistical analysis that did not either condemn nor confirm any point of view which is fairly normal for the CSIRO


----------



## Calliope

orr said:


> Extremely interesting data on the true analysis of the Home insulation programme, By the CSIRO; and truly disturbing to the hyperbolic hyperbaric conservative containment vessels, enveloped within the threads of this forum.




  The CSIRO is in Gillard's pocket.



> *CSIRO chief defends climate science*
> By environment reporter Sarah Clarke
> Updated Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:57am AEDT
> 
> Dr Clark says all parts of the nation are warming.
> The head of Australia's peak science body has spoken out in defence of climate scientists, saying the link between human activity and climate change is beyond doubt.
> 
> The head of the CSIRO, Dr Megan Clark, says the evidence of global warming is unquestionable, and in Australia it is backed by years of robust research.
> 
> Dr Clark says climate records are being broken every decade and all parts of the nation are warming.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/15/2845519.htm


----------



## white_goodman

Calliope said:


> The CSIRO is in Gillard's pocket.
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/15/2845519.htm




cant blame people to stay on the gravy train... self interest is a powerful thing


----------



## saiter

white_goodman said:


> cant blame people to stay on the gravy train... self interest is a powerful thing




Oh so true! Scientists are supporting climate change because if they do, then they have a better chance of receiving funding for projects that are unrelated to climate change


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> The moral high ground is best avoided.
> 
> It's too often a place where the rules of engagement are forgotten.
> 
> Disclaimer:
> That cloud of dust is me, running downhill, as fast as I can.




Would that be the same paddock they keep the high horses


----------



## drsmith

Sell your investment properties, quick.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...rs-for-the-exits/story-e6frg9if-1226045226036

SELL!


----------



## Logique

Working through their hit list aren't they.

Last week it was over 55's unemployed who'd be made to look for jobs full time (good luck with that), this week it's beastly capitalist property investors, daring to provide for their own financial security. 

Interesting to see the downward price pressure of potentially 2.3 million investment properties coming on the market all at once!

As usual, it's the most vulnerable who'll get it in the neck from the 'Friend of the Worker' party. I'd be sh--ing bricks if I was a renter. Rents may go stratospheric in the near term, until the market equalizes anyway.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Working through their hit list aren't they.



They should have a chat with Paul Keating.

I'm of the view that all deductions from salary income should be abolished, but only as part of broader tax reform, not a short term budget fix. In the case of property, it should be in exchange for the removal of other taxes such as land taxes, stamp duties etc.


----------



## medicowallet

drsmith said:


> Sell your investment properties, quick.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...rs-for-the-exits/story-e6frg9if-1226045226036
> 
> SELL!




Well it seems that it is going to fail in the future.

I will just own 1 investment property, my wife another, my kids 1 each, my trust = unsure, may be untouchable, my company = as many as it so chooses, and so on.

Just scrap it on all investments (phased out over 10-20 years)


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> They should have a chat with Paul Keating.
> 
> I'm of the view that all deductions from salary income should be abolished, but only as part of broader tax reform, not a short term budget fix. In the case of property, it should be in exchange for the removal of other taxes such as land taxes, stamp duties etc.




Some countries allow owner occupiers a tax deduction for interest payed. 
Makes a lot more sense than than giving a tax deduction to people gambling on a capital gain while purchasing a loss making investment. Not only loss making but no probability or intention of it becomming positively geared.


----------



## drsmith

I've commented at length on tax reform in the past. This has essentially revolved around simplification on the basis of fixing holes in the revenue base and using the proceeds to remove nuisance taxes and reduce tax rates overall.

Allowing owner occupiers a tax deduction for home loan interest would therefore not be a part of that.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> I've commented at length on tax reform in the past. This has essentially revolved around simplification on the basis of fixing holes in the revenue base and using the proceeds to remove nuisance taxes and reduce tax rates overall.
> 
> Allowing owner occupiers a tax deduction for home loan interest would therefore not be a part of that.




Good point drsmith. It would also open the door for capital gains to be applied to the family home so it would be very unpopular.


----------



## Calliope

Poor old Julia. She went to China to put their leaders on the right track on their human rights responsibilities.

She forgot about the "clean hands" doctrine. Back home people fleeing from despotic governments and seeking asylum in Australia are being subject to cruel and inhuman treatment by Julia's government. The Chinese found it hard to keep a straight face.


----------



## sptrawler

Oh well from the report on the news this morning, they are expecting a budget deficit of $50billion.
Well thats not a bad turn around $20billion surplus to $50billion deficit in three and a half years.
What do we have to show for it, lots of plasma t.v's, dodgy home insulation and of course Julias dodgy school programme. Which should help with the detention building and repair programme currently unfolding.
I know I may sound cynical but can someone tell my something positive the government has done with the money. I'm sorry but I can't think of one thing.


----------



## Julia

Further, because of the above deficit, they will be cutting more medicines from the PBS and not approving for inclusion new medicines which can apparently greatly improve the lives of sufferers of some cancers and also schizophrenia.


----------



## sptrawler

Hello Julia, I think by the share market reaction today, after a positive lead from wall street, the voters are displaying their confidence in the government.
That is one hell of a drop for no reason. The dow up 70, us down 70, what the?


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Further, because of the above deficit, they will be cutting more medicines from the PBS and not approving for inclusion new medicines which can apparently greatly improve the lives of sufferers of some cancers and also schizophrenia.




Agree Julia.  The way money is spent and then other necessities cut leaves a lot to be desired, IMO.  And you wonder how much is being spent to get the PM and her eager partner to London?  Money is no object if it's something she wants.

And what about all those carbon emissions with them flying halfway around the world again?  Carbon tax has to be a money scam - nothing else makes any sense.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> That is one hell of a drop for no reason. The dow up 70, us down 70, what the?



It's our soaring dollar, and it must be a big worry for Swan. He must be revising his budget daily.


> Australian shares are lower to noon, with the soaring high local dollar generating concerns about the effect on local companies.
> It is the third day in a row that Australian stocks have struggled and ignored strong offshore leads, with the Dow Jones Industrial Average nearly reaching three-year highs this week.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/mark...y-concerns-20110429-1dzme.html#ixzz1Ksj6qxDFe


----------



## warennie

sptrawler said:


> Oh well from the report on the news this morning, they are expecting a budget deficit of $50billion.
> Well thats not a bad turn around $20billion surplus to $50billion deficit in three and a half years.
> What do we have to show for it, lots of plasma t.v's, dodgy home insulation and of course Julias dodgy school programme. Which should help with the detention building and repair programme currently unfolding.
> I know I may sound cynical but can someone tell my something positive the government has done with the money. I'm sorry but I can't think of one thing.




Pretty typical of what happens. We have a cyclical cycle here, Liberals in, build a surplus, labor in, spend our surplus and build a huge deficit. Its always the same, seems to work for us however.


----------



## -Bevo-

sptrawler said:


> I know I may sound cynical but can someone tell my something positive the government has done with the money. I'm sorry but I can't think of one thing.




I can watch movies in high def now


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Hello Julia, I think by the share market reaction today, after a positive lead from wall street, the voters are displaying their confidence in the government.
> That is one hell of a drop for no reason. The dow up 70, us down 70, what the?




The reason is the Australian dollar is too strong.
I can clearly remember Andrew Robb asking Swan to compile a mini budget before Christmas to get the value down. I think we are ok at 95-97 cents.
Swan's reply was go for an overseas trip.
There is another thread that explains it.

I think we are in big trouble folks. 
Cheers


----------



## joea

-Bevo- said:


> I can watch movies in high def now




So can I, but up North Qld. we have signal problems at time with digital.
But generally on WIN.

But got a new HD TV without too much of hastle from "you know who"

joea.


----------



## IFocus

warennie said:


> Pretty typical of what happens. We have a cyclical cycle here, Liberals in, build a surplus, labor in, spend our surplus and build a huge deficit. Its always the same, seems to work for us however.




Oh god yawn..... Hawke / Keating payed off Malcolms  / Howards dept making Australia dept free for the 1st time ever............yawn


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> The reason is the Australian dollar is too strong.
> I can clearly remember Andrew Robb asking Swan to compile a mini budget before Christmas to get the value down. I think we are ok at 95-97 cents.
> Swan's reply was go for an overseas trip.
> There is another thread that explains it.
> 
> I think we are in big trouble folks.
> Cheers




Just shows how hopeless Robb is after his election $11 bil black hole.............


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Oh god yawn..... Hawke / Keating payed off Malcolms  / Howards dept making Australia dept free for the 1st time ever............yawn




"payed"? "dept"?... it's time for beddy-byes, I think.


----------



## Julia

I'm not sure if it was on this thread or some other but the question was raised this week about when the next Newspoll was due.

I was polled this evening so presumably those results will be out on Tuesday.

There were the usual political questions, i.e. for whom would you vote in the House of Reps:  are you satisfied/dissatisfied with the performance of the PM:  ditto the Leader of the Opposition:   who do you think would make the better PM?

Then there was a similar group of questions about State politics.

Then a heap of stuff about (1) SBS/ABC/commercial TV   and   (2) cholesterol.

I suppose the political info is funded by commercial interests who pay for the cholesterol type results.


----------



## sptrawler

I don't know Julia, maybe the P.M is funding it to get feedback on her cholesterol. 
I am only making this assumption on visuals from t.v.  I do believe t.v can make you look heavier from what I have read.


----------



## joea

IFocus said:


> Just shows how hopeless Robb is after his election $11 bil black hole.............




You maybe correct.

However how I remember the situation is, Robb had a black hole based on assumption, and we were told the size of the hole by Gillard.(thats Juliar)
Meanwhile nobody remembers the overstatement of the miners tax by Swan by about 100%. It was announced when he went overseas.

So I suppose its ok to overstate, but not understate.

But I think there is a lot we do not see going on in the background. Both parties have not acted correctly with costing at an election. But the system fails the opposition who ever it is, as they do not have the resources.

Finally I will accept the costing of the coalition over Swan's anyday. Time will tell !
Cheers


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> You maybe correct.
> 
> However how I remember the situation is, Robb had a black hole based on assumption, and we were told the size of the hole by Gillard.(thats Juliar)
> Meanwhile nobody remembers the overstatement of the miners tax by Swan by about 100%. It was announced when he went overseas.
> 
> So I suppose its ok to overstate, but not understate.
> 
> But I think there is a lot we do not see going on in the background. Both parties have not acted correctly with costing at an election. But the system fails the opposition who ever it is, as they do not have the resources.
> 
> Finally I will accept the costing of the coalition over Swan's anyday. Time will tell !
> Cheers




Its one thing that frustrates me is that the opposition doesn't have access to treasury to do its costings neither side when in government will change the rules because of the advantage of being in government.


----------



## joea

IFocus said:


> Its one thing that frustrates me is that the opposition doesn't have access to treasury to do its costings neither side when in government will change the rules because of the advantage of being in government.




I agree. I think both costing should be given to an independant.

The Australian has the RBA represented by " monkeys".
Well one of them is on $A 1 million plus!

We have the PM on a percentage of what company"s and banks are paying their ceo's.

The PM OF Australia is in charge of a large economy, but gets paid peanuts.

The system must change, and the credibility of the leaders must improve.

We are currently at a turning point for the future, the decisions must be right for the country and its voters, not the parties.

joea


----------



## joea

Talking about TV. THE OTHER DAY.
No free to air available in Nth. Qld. for last 3 hours.

Well I think it will not be long before there will be people waiting to exchange seats on the boats of the asylum seekers, to get out of Australia.

Cheers


----------



## joea

Wayne Swan says that the rising $A is because our economy is so strong.

I would have thought it is so strong, as it compares our economy against other countries.

Cheers


----------



## Julia

OK, aren't you and Swanny saying the same thing?


----------



## sptrawler

The wavering is starting to happen, Wilkie first cab off the rank. In todays Australian he is asking Gillard to improve her carbon tax spin. Sounds to me as though he is starting to worry about his A####se.
Talk about misreading the polls, the polls say most people agree with a carbon tax but hate Labor. Wilkie thinks it's just the way they are selling it, is he in for a shock at the election.
At least Oakeshott is standing at attention next to Captain Gillard as the ship slowly sinks into oblivion.
I think the next election whether State or Federal, will be the unravelling of this shakey alliance.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> T
> Talk about misreading the polls, the polls say most people agree with a carbon tax but hate Labor.



That's actually not right, sp.  The poll out in today's "The Australian" shows 60% of Australians are opposed to the carbon tax.

Various other results are interesting too, e.g. the greatest increase in those opposing it are families, rather than people over 50:   of those opposed, more are "strongly against".

Where does the government go from here, while Mr Abbott continues his successful campaign against the tax?

http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/110408 Climate Change.pdf


----------



## sptrawler

Yes Julia my mistake, It looks as though even Labor voters who were strong supporters of the carbon tax (from memory it was also around 60%) are becomming opponents.
You would have to say Tony Abbott is doing a pretty good job of destabilizing the government


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> That's actually not right, sp.  The poll out in today's "The Australian" shows 60% of Australians are opposed to the carbon tax.
> 
> Various other results are interesting too, e.g. the greatest increase in those opposing it are families, rather than people over 50:   of those opposed, more are "strongly against".
> 
> Where does the government go from here, while Mr Abbott continues his successful campaign against the tax?
> 
> http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/110408 Climate Change.pdf




Julia
I think the government will go into defensive mode. Like try and change the subject to anything that makes her look good.
W. Swan is the next performer. He says he is up to it. Lest see!
I am thinking the dollar may come back a few cents.
I hope so for Swan and Australia's  sake.
If the carbon tax does not push her head under water, well the idea she has with teachers will.
Cheers


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> ...the greatest increase in those opposing it are *families*, rather than people over 50...http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/110408 Climate Change.pdf



Heard Jenny Macklin on the ABC this morning intoning the urgent need to increase baby bonus payments, '..we know how hard it is for mothers..'..etc. 

The 'Working Families' must be won back. More wheelbarrows of cash.


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> Julia
> I think the government will go into defensive mode. Like try and change the subject to anything that makes her look good.



Yes, it seems so.  Hence the feel-good announcements out today.



> If the carbon tax does not push her head under water, well the idea she has with teachers will.
> Cheers



Even teachers seem critical of this.  And I think it's not proposed to begin until 2014 anyway.  So why is it being announced now?  They will of course announce it again just prior to 2014 as though it were new money.



Logique said:


> Heard Jenny Macklin on the ABC this morning intoning the urgent need to increase baby bonus payments, '..we know how hard it is for mothers..'..etc.
> 
> The 'Working Families' must be won back. More wheelbarrows of cash.



Yep, it's a really, really tough budget!  Such breathtaking hypocrisy.  Cut vital medical research and admission of essential new drugs to the PBS, but ladle it out to the voting heartland.

Expect there will be more of this to come, i.e. the cutting of essential services to pay for the bribery of the middle class.


----------



## bigdog

*Gillard, please stop the boats*

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226050079542

*Most refugee households rely on welfare *
Simon Benson From: Herald Sun May 05, 2011 

*FOUR out of five refugee households are relying on welfare. *

And more than 60 per cent of refugees have failed to get a job after five years, according to a damning Federal Government report into the humanitarian settlement program.

A total of 83 per cent of refugee households now rely on welfare payments for income.

The greatest unemployment rate was recorded among new arrivals from Iraq and Afghanistan, with less than one in 10 able to find full time work and 93.7 of households receiving Centrelink payments.

The statistics are contained in a Department of Immigration and Citizenship report.

Those not considered "employed" after five years, were unemployed, retired, studying full time, engaged in caring duties, doing voluntary work or trying to start a business for which they had yet to receive income.


----------



## Calliope

bigdog said:


> *
> The greatest unemployment rate was recorded among new arrivals from Iraq and Afghanistan, with less than one in 10 able to find full time work and 93.7 of households receiving Centrelink payments.
> *



*

The average Muslim family has six children. They can live quite comfortably on welfare and never have to work again.

To spend a few thousand to get to this paradise is a very good investment for themr. As migrants they are a very bad investment for Australia. Compared to  Chinese immigrants (for example) they have a poor work ethic.*


----------



## Logique

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-off-benefits/comments-fn8gf1nz-1226050404322
*Free childcare for teen mums *to be trialled under moves to get young mothers off benefits
By: Joe Kelly - May 05, 2011 
TEENAGE mums will be given free childcare under a *$47 million* pilot program to force young mothers off benefits and into the workforce.
As she crafts a budget message around education and training, Julia Gillard said young mums in selected areas would have their childcare subsidised by taxpayers to improve their career opportunities.
“At every opportunity we have put at the forefront of our decision making, education and support for Australians to make sure they get good opportunities in life,” Ms Gillard said today.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-off-benefits/comments-fn8gf1nz-1226050404322
> *Free childcare for teen mums *to be trialled under moves to get young mothers off benefits
> By: Joe Kelly - May 05, 2011
> TEENAGE mums will be given free childcare under a *$47 million* pilot program to force young mothers off benefits and into the workforce.
> As she crafts a budget message around education and training, Julia Gillard said young mums in selected areas would have their childcare subsidised by taxpayers to improve their career opportunities.
> “At every opportunity we have put at the forefront of our decision making, education and support for Australians to make sure they get good opportunities in life,” Ms Gillard said today.




Yes Logique, it is just another Gillard make me feel good speech which means absolutely nothing. 
Another distraction from the carbon dioxide tax which 60% say "NO". Gillard must have also enjoyed the temporary Bin Ladin distraction.
OMG when are we going to get rid of this useless government?


----------



## sptrawler

Labors first 4 years in office. Revenue up 15%, Government spending up 39%, nothing to show for it. 
Now for a tough budget to get more money to waste. What a classic


----------



## Wysiwyg

bigdog said:


> *Most refugee households rely on welfare *
> Simon Benson From: Herald Sun May 05, 2011
> 
> *FOUR out of five refugee households are relying on welfare. *
> 
> And more than 60 per cent of refugees have failed to get a job after five years, according to a damning Federal Government report into the humanitarian settlement program.



Compared to where they came from, their new lifestyle would be 100% better and all for no put in. Why would they want to work for money? Those refugees that actually give a rat's rump would probably encounter workplace rejection.


----------



## sptrawler

Wysiwyg said:


> Compared to where they came from, their new lifestyle would be 100% better and all for no put in. Why would they want to work for money? Those refugees that actually give a rat's rump would probably encounter workplace rejection.




Not to worry the government has got that problem sorted. Apparently in the budget pensioners can go back to work and earn more money before they start loosing their pension.
How charitable, the only pensioners that can get a job would be ones that had jobs through their working lives.
What a brilliant government, some would call it double dipping, i.e tax a person through their working life and when they retire. let them keep some of the pension they have funded if they go back to work as long as they don't earn too much. 
Lets get real $14,000/pa for a single pensioner isn't heaps, if they have worked all their lives since school they shouldn't loose any. That is unless the combined income exceeds a reasonable amount e.g $50,000 
Priceless absolutely priceless.

Lets be honest if they don't go back to work you have to import someone, or so the story goes. lol


----------



## Julia

Wysiwyg said:


> Compared to where they came from, their new lifestyle would be 100% better and all for no put in. Why would they want to work for money?



 Especially if they have six or more children in which case their Centrelink benefit would be way more than many taxpaying Australians are taking home.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Especially if they have six or more children in which case their Centrelink benefit would be way more than many taxpaying Australians are taking home.




And most likely government housing to accomodate them. 

It bugs me that should an Aussie defraud Centrelink for a better economic life, they would face criminal charges if caught and probably instantly lose further benefits.  And yet this motly minority government puts out the welcome mat to whoever comes from overseas in a rickety boat without ID may receive freely of our welfare system-even if it is just for a better life. 

Isn't that discrimination against our own citizens?


----------



## drsmith

It's unfortunate that this so-called government are, well, still in government. 

They are simply not worthy of further discussion in my view.


----------



## tothemax6

Julia said:


> Especially if they have six or more children in which case their Centrelink benefit would be way more than many taxpaying Australians are taking home.



Aye, its a terrible case of reverse eugenics .

I was amazed at how much one woman was getting from Center-link. I am obviously in the wrong profession. The money is obviously in getting knocked up repeatedly out of wedlock . I highly doubt it works if one _does _the knocking up, although perhaps with the kind of money involved, the woman might be willing to offer a cut of the profits if the deed itself is not sufficient reward.

What a world.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> It's unfortunate that this so-called government are, well, still in government.
> 
> They are simply not worthy of further discussion in my view.




I tend to agree, however they continue to come out with new and more ludicrous policy.
I sit here and keep saying to myself say nothing, then the urge to pay out on these fools just overpowers me. 
Maybe I need to read other forums.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> It's unfortunate that this so-called government are, well, still in government.
> 
> They are simply not worthy of further discussion in my view.






sptrawler said:


> I tend to agree, however they continue to come out with new and more ludicrous policy.
> I sit here and keep saying to myself say nothing, then the urge to pay out on these fools just overpowers me.
> Maybe I need to read other forums.



Have to agree with both above comments.
I keep thinking it's impossible for them to stuff up more than they have already, but they keep proving me wrong.

It's truly depressing.  I'm making an effort to 'switch off' but not being very successful.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> It's truly depressing.  I'm making an effort to 'switch off' but not being very successful.




Maybe there strategy is just that. Be so horribly bad at everything that the best solution is for people to turn away and stop looking at the carnage. That is what happened in NSW for way too long unfortunately. Watching this government take us back to the bad old way of doing things (in business especially) is down right scary imo.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...It's truly depressing.  I'm making an effort to 'switch off' but not being very successful.




I've noticed our resident lefties have become very quiet.  Could it be that they are also trying to switch off - maybe it's impossible to defend these bizarre policies anymore?


----------



## Glen48

Any one know about FEMA building a prison at Robina.
QLD


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> I've noticed our resident lefties have become very quiet.  Could it be that they are also trying to switch off - maybe it's impossible to defend these bizarre policies anymore?





Simply the risk of being stoned to death by the self righteous Abbott brain washed quoting shrill brigade will keep anyone at bay.

I can understand if you missed this bit from John Mauldin (reading Bolt and Abbott slogans must be exhausting) seems the former Comptroller General of the US,  in the US think we are No1 in money management clearly they haven't seen the extreme dept the Liberal states are raking up.

he must be an extreme left winger.......

.
	

		
			
		

		
	





Apologies I don't have a direct link but Google John Mauldin and sign up for the letter pretty much a must read in IMHO the letter should be on his site some where


----------



## sptrawler

Funnily enough IFocus, 
I was reading today that the Australian Labor party have cranked up government debt 250% since the G.F.C.  Where as crippled countries like Ireland and Iceland have only cranked it up 130%.
They went on to say that the saving grace for Australia was the fact it was one of the only countries in the western world that had a surplus. Due to fiscal management by the previous government.
I just guess it depends on what you read and how deep you care to look into it. 

Just imagine the mess if they had started out with a deficit. Well actually that wouldn't be funny


----------



## DB008

I saw a good bit of graffiti in the toilets today @ work



> ALP = Australian Liars Party




Made me chuckle a little while taking a slash....


----------



## tothemax6

DB008 said:


> Made me chuckle a little while taking a slash....



Do you mean splash??


----------



## sptrawler

Apparently the group checking out the dodgy insulation will be moving on to dodgy set top box installations. If this can be done in a timely manner, they will ivestigate garage sales and car boot sales for G.S.T breaches. LOL. Only joking but I wouldn't put it past them. 
This has to be the dumbest government ever.


----------



## DB008

tothemax6 said:


> Do you mean splash??




Wee-wee....


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Apparently the group checking out the dodgy insulation will be moving on to dodgy set top box installations. If this can be done in a timely manner, they will ivestigate garage sales and car boot sales for G.S.T breaches. LOL. Only joking but I wouldn't put it past them.
> This has to be the dumbest government ever.




I think you are spot on.

I heard on the radio some of the money is to train them to use it.

There is someting "wrong" with the water in Canberra.
You just cannot get that stupid, without something being wrong somewhere.
Cheers


----------



## trainspotter

Transcript of the dinner http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3208024.htm

Juliar Gizzard shaking hands with the big end of town over the carbon deal.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> Funnily enough IFocus,
> I was reading today that the Australian Labor party have cranked up government debt 250% since the G.F.C.  Where as crippled countries like Ireland and Iceland have only cranked it up 130%.




If you are investing in the share market you should understand what is wrong with that statement.


----------



## Logique

I've never been averse to giving the Gillard Government a bollocking, but today I must give them some sincere credit. 

This week's Budget points to them reining in (at the top end of taxable income) the baby bonus and family tax benefits, which in my view were becoming excessive and inequitable. 

In addition, while the efficiency of delivery of the Set Top Box program may be examined, the Gillard Govt deserves further credit for it's impulse to do something for pensioners.

(I said something positive about them...IF has probably just fainted, glass of water someone...)


----------



## moXJO

Logique said:


> I've never been averse to giving the Gillard Government a bollocking, but today I must give them some sincere credit.
> 
> This week's Budget points to them reining in (at the top end of taxable income) the baby bonus and family tax benefits, which in my view were becoming excessive and inequitable.
> 
> In addition, while the efficiency of delivery of the Set Top Box program may be examined, the Gillard Govt deserves further credit for it's impulse to do something for pensioners.
> 
> (I said something positive about them...IF has probably just fainted, glass of water someone...)




I was going to say this as well, but someone else mentioned net spending isn't down all that much?


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> I've never been averse to giving the Gillard Government a bollocking, but today I must give them some sincere credit.
> 
> This week's Budget points to them reining in (at the top end of taxable income) the baby bonus and family tax benefits, which in my view were becoming excessive and inequitable.
> 
> In addition, while the efficiency of delivery of the Set Top Box program may be examined, the Gillard Govt deserves further credit for it's impulse to do something for pensioners.
> 
> (I said something positive about them...IF has probably just fainted, glass of water someone...)




Agree about the slight reduction in top end welfare.
Still irritated about the waste re the set top box policy.  Yes, by all means look after pensioners, but just be efficient about doing it.  It should not be that hard!
I'm also concerned the scheme will be significantly rorted, and would have preferred all pensioners to receive cash say $100 or $150, so those who have already bought new TV or whatever are not disadvantaged.

Re the budget, once again it's disappointing that there's no funding for dental care.

Many people, very much including pensioners, cannot afford to go to a dentist.  The ramifications can be considerable.  I actually support the Greens on this with their wish for a national Denticare scheme.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> ....and would have preferred all pensioners to receive cash say $100 or $150, so those who have already bought new TV or whatever are not disadvantaged.
> Re the budget, once again it's disappointing that there's no funding for dental care.
> Many people, very much including pensioners, cannot afford to go to a dentist.  The ramifications can be considerable.  I actually support the Greens on this with their wish for a national Denticare scheme.



I agree with all of that Julia. I 've heard that the Dick Smith website quotes $98 delivery and setup for a High Def STB, which would retail in range $30-$70, so ~$150 to $200 would be about right, however I don't begrudge pensioners a new antenna and some coax cable if they need it, and that would cost more.

And moXJO, you are right, let's see delivery on these promises.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Agree about the slight reduction in top end welfare.
> Still irritated about the waste re the set top box policy.  Yes, by all means look after pensioners, but just be efficient about doing it.  It should not be that hard!
> I'm also concerned the scheme will be significantly rorted, and would have preferred all pensioners to receive cash say $100 or $150, so those who have already bought new TV or whatever are not disadvantaged.
> 
> Re the budget, once again it's disappointing that there's no funding for dental care.
> 
> Many people, very much including pensioners, cannot afford to go to a dentist.  The ramifications can be considerable.  I actually support the Greens on this with their wish for a national Denticare scheme.





Agree on both counts, Julia.  The set top box is wide open for rorting, IMO.  

And a national Denticare scheme would be a good move.  I have read quite a few articles over the years that link poor dental health to other health factors including heart attacks.  Also, people with poor dental health often have difficulty eating good nutritional food and that in itself leads to further health problems.

So, it would surely be prudent to have dental health in good order which may reduce even higher medical costs through medicare.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> (I said something positive about them...IF has probably just fainted, glass of water someone...)




Needed oxygen 

There are some good points to the budget (a start on regaining middle class welfare and holding increase spending at 2%) but really its as brave as a minority government dare go and I am not a fan of relying / gambling on rising revenue to move back to a surplus i.e. hoping China doesn't fall over 

BTW the WA Barnett coalition government has similar hopes regarding the state dept.


----------



## trainspotter

No mention of the carbon tax revenue in the forward estimates?


----------



## trainspotter

The hit on middle-class welfare, part of a $22 billion cut to spending, will be hardest felt by those described by economists as being in "mortgage poverty."

They are families who will lose most of last year's tax cuts through the $750 flood levy, face a possible rates rise next month and will bear the brunt of the carbon tax.

They also face the possibility of a private health insurance rebate means test later this year and rising electricity prices.

Introduction of paid paternity leave will also be delayed by six months, until January 2013.


Read more: http://www.news.com.au/money/federa...et/story-fn84fgcm-1226053705187#ixzz0nbad1T9w


----------



## medicowallet

trainspotter said:


> The hit on middle-class welfare, part of a $22 billion cut to spending, will be hardest felt by those described by economists as being in "mortgage poverty."




Who cares?

Drop the price of the house $10k, pay the agents fees of $10k and walk away from your stresses.

Then builders and land developers will need to drop their offerings by $20k in addition to the "incentives" currently on offer.

Plenty of sunshine and lollipops to go around from Wayne Swann.


----------



## IFocus

trainspotter said:


> No mention of the carbon tax revenue in the forward estimates?




Quoting Hockey and Abbott is fraught at the best of times.


----------



## trainspotter

IFocus said:


> Quoting Hockey and Abbott is fraught at the best of times.




Ummmmmmmmmm ....... nope ...... doing my own synopsis thanks IFocus. Nuffin to do with those squawk mongers.

The greatest moral and environmental issue of our generation (a' la Kevin Rudd) is soon to be implemented by our encumbent minority Guvmint onto our great brown land and not even a peep from the media?

Stange would you not think?


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Agree on both counts, Julia.  The set top box is wide open for rorting, IMO.
> 
> And a national Denticare scheme would be a good move.  I have read quite a few articles over the years that link poor dental health to other health factors including heart attacks.  Also, people with poor dental health often have difficulty eating good nutritional food and that in itself leads to further health problems.
> 
> So, it would surely be prudent to have dental health in good order which may reduce even higher medical costs through medicare.



Someone from the dentists' professional body was on the radio today making the totally reasonable point that if he had an abscess on his backside, the medicare system would leap into whatever action is required to treat this, but if a similar condition were to occur in his mouth, he is eligible for no assistance whatsoever.
How utterly illogical this is!





trainspotter said:


> They also face the possibility of a private health insurance rebate means test later this year and rising electricity prices.



Yes, good reminder.  What happened to the means testing of private health cover?  They had suggested this was going to be part of this Budget.
Re rising electricity prices, my heart fails to bleed on this score for those with an income of more than $150,000 in comparison to the same rises faced by people on pensions of about $17,000 p.a.


----------



## IFocus

trainspotter said:


> Ummmmmmmmmm ....... nope ...... doing my own synopsis thanks IFocus. Nuffin to do with those squawk mongers.
> 
> The greatest moral and environmental issue of our generation (a' la Kevin Rudd) is soon to be implemented by our encumbent minority Guvmint onto our great brown land and not even a peep from the media?
> 
> Stange would you not think?




From what I have seen and read (I am a fence sitter regarding the tax as its a transitional to a ETS same as Abbotts direct action policy) its at best neutral to the bottom line budget wise how it impacts on the economy is a different question.


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> Someone from the dentists' professional body was on the radio today making the totally reasonable point that if he had an abscess on his backside, the medicare system would leap into whatever action is required to treat this, but if a similar condition were to occur in his mouth, he is eligible for no assistance whatsoever.
> How utterly illogical this is!




Did he also mention how much a doctor would charge per hour (10 years minimum training) vs how much a dentist would charge per hour (5 years training)

When the government can get dentist services for an appropriate cost, I am sure that they will fund them.


----------



## sptrawler

medicowallet said:


> Did he also mention how much a doctor would charge per hour (10 years minimum training) vs how much a dentist would charge per hour (5 years training)
> 
> When the government can get dentist services for an appropriate cost, I am sure that they will fund them.




Good point medicowallet, how much money can someone charge for a working knowledge of 32 teeth in an upper and lower piece of bone. 
That is a 34 piece structure, that can fit in the palm of your hand. 
They have been around for a long time and just about everything is known about them.
So why the stupid prices to work on them?


----------



## Logique

I think the public/private health system balance is about right, for this reason I'm not in favour of means-testing the private health insurance rebate.

There needs to be a close analysis of how many medium to high income participants would abandon private health insurance if their rebate was means-tested away. 

A disproportionate abandoning of private health insurance by these people would achieve little, other than to flood an already stretched public system, and place upward pressure on premiums for those left behind. 

The whole idea of the rebates was to take the pressure off the public system, and what would be the point if the dollars saved via means-testing - then had be spent  on propping up the public system?  The overall spend would be the same, so what would be achieved in real terms.


----------



## trainspotter

medicowallet said:


> Did he also mention how much a doctor would charge per hour (10 years minimum training) vs how much a dentist would charge per hour (5 years training)
> 
> When the government can get dentist services for an appropriate cost, I am sure that they will fund them.




Dont get me started on veterinarians.


----------



## noco

Money seems to be no problem for this Labor Government in their attempts to get Kevin 11 a seat on the UN. Just keep borrowing $140,000,000 a day and farm it out in Foreign aid to countries who don't even like us. Kevin11 needs thier vote.
Don't worry about the pensioners and homeless who are living in cardboard  boxes. Kevvie is more important 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-rudds-un-bid/comments-e6freooo-1226054357319


----------



## drsmith

Wayne Swan a little nervous.


----------



## medicowallet

sptrawler said:


> Good point medicowallet, how much money can someone charge for a working knowledge of 32 teeth in an upper and lower piece of bone.
> That is a 34 piece structure, that can fit in the palm of your hand.
> They have been around for a long time and just about everything is known about them.
> So why the stupid prices to work on them?




I am not questioning their skills, just what they charge.


----------



## Knobby22

medicowallet said:


> I am not questioning their skills, just what they charge.




Aren't Australian dentists the dearest in the world? If GPs were paid commensuarately it would be $120 a visit.


----------



## namrog

Unless it's an emergency, anyone that gets serious dental work done in Australia need their heads examined, (well their mouths at least) ...

I know of several people who go to the places like Thailand, have the work done by very qualified and competent people , for one third of the price, holiday for 3 weeks and allowing for and including the airfares are no worse off ...

Dentists do get over paid here, but in fairness it's not a plesant job,  I certainly wouldn't do it, couldn't handle bending over in awkward positions and having to work on some dirty old smelly breathed individual,  I'd rather be a plumber at least you get to be outdoors....


----------



## Glen48

The dentist  I use was trained in New York she has an X ray machine which moves around your head and takes a full 180 shot of all your teeth, I did not see any machine like this in OZ, to replace a damaged crown she charges $25 about $100 cheaper than OZ 2 yrs ago. 
 There is a dentist on very corner here with the best equipment money can buy as soon as possible I will be getting an implant replaced.

 If these dentist were allowed to move in to OZ dental fees would make your jaw drop.


----------



## Knobby22

Glen48 said:


> The dentist  I use was trained in New York she has an X ray machine which moves around your head and takes a full 180 shot of all your teeth, I did not see any machine like this in OZ, to replace a damaged crown she charges $25 about $100 cheaper than OZ 2 yrs ago.
> There is a dentist on very corner here with the best equipment money can buy as soon as possible I will be getting an implant replaced.
> 
> If these dentist were allowed to move in to OZ dental fees would make your jaw drop.




I've got a daughter who will need braces one day AND I have friends who live in Manila (they teach at the international school). Sounds like this is the way to go.  The orthondontists here will get narky though.


----------



## tothemax6

sptrawler said:


> Good point medicowallet, how much money can someone charge for a working knowledge of 32 teeth in an upper and lower piece of bone.
> That is a 34 piece structure, that can fit in the palm of your hand.
> They have been around for a long time and just about everything is known about them.
> So why the stupid prices to work on them?



And a guy who drives a truck around a mine all day laughs at the years the dentist spent in training to get the same money.
The price is the price, regardless of how much the job description can be simplified. If you guys thinks its so easy, become a dentist and undercut their 'stupid' prices.


----------



## nulla nulla

Knobby22 said:


> I've got a daughter who will need braces one day AND I have friends who live in Manila (they teach at the international school). Sounds like this is the way to go.  The orthondontists here will get narky though.




Are you going to fly to Manila on a regular basis to have the braces adjusted as the teeth move into the desired positions? In the early stages after the braces have been fitted, they are adjusted every 6 weeks or so to manage the movement of the teeth. 

Then the visits spread out as the placement is fine tuned. Eventually the visits go from 3 to 6 months. There are also the followup visits after the braces come off for the fitting of the retainer and the visits go out to 6 then 12 months. Could be a lot of International trips.


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> Aren't Australian dentists the dearest in the world? If GPs were paid commensuarately it would be $120 a visit.



Well, if GPs did not receive the very considerable Medicare payment, then indeed it probably would be $120 a visit.

I don't know what the comparative incomes of GPs and dentists are, but isn't it quite possible they are very similar, just derived from different bases?

Just silly to compare dental fees with those of medical doctors when one group receives no taxpayer subsidies and the other receives often quite generous amounts.


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> Well, if GPs did not receive the very considerable Medicare payment, then indeed it probably would be $120 a visit.
> 
> I don't know what the comparative incomes of GPs and dentists are, but isn't it quite possible they are very similar, just derived from different bases?
> 
> Just silly to compare dental fees with those of medical doctors when one group receives no taxpayer subsidies and the other receives often quite generous amounts.




What is the "very considerable" medicare payment Julia?

Do people realise that doctors spend a minimum of 10 years training, and not only is it difficult (ie the content is extensive and complex), the stresses of the job are unfathomable to the lay person. How many of you make life or death decisions for people who you are face to face with every day?

A full time GP will see around 25-30 patients per day, for about 10 hours work per day (the paperwork is a nightmare), and collect 60%ish of the income they generate for the practice.

Yes dentists and doctors make similar amounts. Which would you choose?


----------



## Julia

Oh dear, can't be bothered engaging in another unrewarding discourse with you Medicowallet.

I was simply pointing out that it's not valid to compare what we as patients pay to doctors and dentists when one group receives a government subsidy and the other doesn't.


----------



## trainspotter

medicowallet said:


> What is the "very considerable" medicare payment Julia?
> 
> Do people realise that doctors spend a minimum of 10 years training, and not only is it difficult (ie the content is extensive and complex), the stresses of the job are unfathomable to the lay person. How many of you make life or death decisions for people who you are face to face with every day?
> 
> A full time GP will see around 25-30 patients per day, for about 10 hours work per day (the paperwork is a nightmare), and collect 60%ish of the income they generate for the practice.
> 
> Yes dentists and doctors make similar amounts. Which would you choose?




10 years of training does not make them competent. Me as a lay person would obviously not understand as to how difficult your job must be. 

I make life and death choices every day with my crew. Tiger sharks don't invite you to dinner. Blue ring octopus don't care if you are an MD or a lay person. The capstan winch rated to 10,000 kg does not mind taking your head off if you are not careful. I am the one that instructs them to get in the water or to shuck shell and to winch. Yep .... I wish I was making these kinds of decisions.


----------



## Logique

You couldn't pay me enough to be a GP, especially in a one or two doctor practice in the bush. I admire anyone who can stick it out. Just brutal. 

Dentistry seems to have more regular hours, and a more orderly environment to work in. But it is damned pricey. I understand a big problem with proposals for socialized dentistry is finding the dentists willing to take a pay cut!

Skilled migration program - here's a thought, what about a boatload of Filipino dentists, and help them set up in practices. Seriously.

If this was proposed, watch the dentist's equivalent of the AMA jump up and down about the qualifications of the foreigners. Nice cosy closed market that they have now.


----------



## trainspotter

Maybe some of the 4000 genuine refugees we are getting from Malaysia will fill the gap?

Meanwhile back at the ranch:- http://www.amnesty.org.au/news/comments/25548/

*Amnesty International holds grave concerns for the fate of any asylum seekers sent to Malaysia under the Australian Government's new deal.*

Malaysia is not a signatory to the UN Refugee Convention, and an Amnesty International report released just last year documented serious human rights abuses against refugees.


----------



## medicowallet

trainspotter said:


> 10 years of training does not make them competent. Me as a lay person would obviously not understand as to how difficult your job must be.
> 
> I make life and death choices every day with my crew. Tiger sharks don't invite you to dinner. Blue ring octopus don't care if you are an MD or a lay person. The capstan winch rated to 10,000 kg does not mind taking your head off if you are not careful. I am the one that instructs them to get in the water or to shuck shell and to winch. Yep .... I wish I was making these kinds of decisions.




10 years of training makes them competent in most things. It is extremely difficult to complete a specialist training program. 

Yes workplace health and safety is an issue, these also occur in medicine.

But making decisions which can determine the outcome of someone's life is not something that is to be taken lightly, nor without stress.

eg even the treatments ordered are fraught with danger and done so with probabilities.

I understand that a lot of jobs are dangerous, heck I used to work in heavy industry. I can just assure you that the responsibilities of being a GP or physician are extraordinary, and you may take offense at this, but yours would be nothing like it.

How many of your crew have died due to decisions you have made?   Do you sleep well because of this?



Julia said:


> Oh dear, can't be bothered engaging in another unrewarding discourse with you Medicowallet.
> 
> I was simply pointing out that it's not valid to compare what we as patients pay to doctors and dentists when one group receives a government subsidy and the other doesn't.




A government subsidy yes, is it adequate, no.

Otherwise I agree entirely with you.


----------



## trainspotter

I typed this into Google - _"How many times does a GP misdiagnose?"   _

The answer - About 22,000,000 results (0.21 seconds) Yep .... that is twenty two million results on misdiagnosis for GP's. Apparently one in six patients is misdiagnosed. Competent eh?

Main culprit is LACK OF TIME - _It really is quite sad how little time a doctor will typically spend with a patient. We're all used to something like a 15 minutes appointment. That doesn't give the doctor much time to ask a few questions, make a tentative diagnosis, order some blood tests to confirm it, and then answer some questions from the patient. We'd all like to think that, later, the doctor went and double-checked our disease in their books, with other specialists, and consulted the latest research about how to diagnose and treat it correctly, but it seems rather unlikely! In reality, doctors have to shoot from the hip, and although they'll hit the mark with most common diseases, they can get tricked up by rarer conditions. _

Read more at http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/intro/why.htm?ktrack=kcplink

None of my crew are pushing up daisies as I have so far managed to make the correct decision given the risk factors involved within the chosen task. *whew*


----------



## medicowallet

trainspotter said:


> I typed this into Google - _"How many times does a GP misdiagnose?"   _
> 
> The answer - About 22,000,000 results (0.21 seconds) Yep .... that is twenty two million results on misdiagnosis for GP's. Apparently one in six patients is misdiagnosed. Competent eh?
> 
> Main culprit is LACK OF TIME - _It really is quite sad how little time a doctor will typically spend with a patient. We're all used to something like a 15 minutes appointment. That doesn't give the doctor much time to ask a few questions, make a tentative diagnosis, order some blood tests to confirm it, and then answer some questions from the patient. We'd all like to think that, later, the doctor went and double-checked our disease in their books, with other specialists, and consulted the latest research about how to diagnose and treat it correctly, but it seems rather unlikely! In reality, doctors have to shoot from the hip, and although they'll hit the mark with most common diseases, they can get tricked up by rarer conditions. _
> 
> Read more at http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/intro/why.htm?ktrack=kcplink
> 
> None of my crew are pushing up daisies as I have so far managed to make the correct decision given the risk factors involved within the chosen task. *whew*




Sorry mate, your post makes you look like a fool.

Perhaps young people do not understand.

OF COURSE doctors misdiagnose, that is what I said!!!! 

Just because your decisions are easy, doesn't make doctor's decisions easy too mate.


----------



## drsmith

So, 

whats worse ?

Appendicitis, tooth abscess or the Gillard Government ?


----------



## medicowallet

drsmith said:


> So,
> 
> whats worse ?
> 
> Appendicitis, tooth abscess or the Gillard Government ?




They can all give you the runs... I'd say Gillard Government.

Seriously, I cannot fathom the waste and stupidly consistent stupid ideas.


----------



## moXJO

medicowallet said:


> But making decisions which can determine the outcome of someone's life is not something that is to be taken lightly, nor without stress.
> 
> eg even the treatments ordered are fraught with danger and done so with probabilities.
> 
> I understand that a lot of jobs are dangerous, heck I used to work in heavy industry. I can just assure you that the responsibilities of being a GP or physician are extraordinary, and you may take offense at this, but yours would be nothing like it.
> 
> How many of your crew have died due to decisions you have made?   Do you sleep well because of this?
> 
> 
> .



 Soldiers might be a tad bit more stressful and with crap pay in comparison, then there is police, engineers etc. 
The majority of doctors I have met are useless and couldn't diagnose that your ass was on fire. As for the pay come on, I fix a lot of doctors houses and they are on the mansion scale with two mercs and multiple investment properties. Yes they work hard, but the are well compensated


----------



## medicowallet

moXJO said:


> Soldiers might be a tad bit more stressful and with crap pay in comparison, then there is police, engineers etc.




I'll pay that. 

those are difficult jobs too. I agree, all would probably be more stressful than being a dentist 

But in reality soldiers, even though horrendous, are rarely deployed.
And then it is the elite, normal grunts are very rarely posted anywhere.



moXJO said:


> The majority of doctors I have met are useless and couldn't diagnose that your ass was on fire. As for the pay come on, I fix a lot of doctors houses and they are on the mansion scale with two mercs and multiple investment properties. Yes they work hard, but the are well compensated




Most builders don't know what 90 degrees is


----------



## trainspotter

medicowallet said:


> Sorry mate, your post makes you look like a fool.
> 
> Perhaps young people do not understand.
> 
> OF COURSE doctors misdiagnose, that is what I said!!!!
> 
> Just because your decisions are easy, doesn't make doctor's decisions easy too mate.




Ahhhhhhhhh yes but a very rich fool. 

Young ??? Young??? Chronologically challenged ??? You do me proud MD. Yet another misdiagnosis.

Nope ...... you did not say anything about misdiagnosis. You were too quick to prattle on about how your vocation is more stressful and more important than any other job in the world and you went on to say that the "lay man" would not comprehend the "extraordinary" responsibilities you suffer in your line of work.

Whoooooppeeeeeeeeee ...... you are a doctor. An associate of mine is a retired nuclear physicist and yet another is a psychologist. I also include truck drivers and plumbers in my sphere of operations. 

My decisions are easy are they?? So when the tow rope has snapped in 5 metre seas and howling 35 knots from the South West in 151 metres of depth do I call on you to get in the water to swim? Just LOL.


----------



## Calliope

Meanwhile back at the ranch... I noticed that in the Galaxy poll, *11% of voters think that Labor are sound economic managers*. They must be either very rusted on, or demented, or both.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Meanwhile back at the ranch... I noticed that in the Galaxy poll, *11% of voters think that Labor are sound economic managers*. They must be either very rusted on, or demented, or both.




Yeah - almost 90% think they are not...lol.  And among other things:

72 percent did not back the budget and 39 per cent of those said it was bad for the country. 

60 per cent of the older Australians surveyed said that they didn't support the $300 million digital set-top box scheme.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ght-for-nation-poll-wrong-20110514-1en3e.html


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> Yeah - almost 90% think they are not...lol.  And among other things:
> 
> 72 percent did not back the budget and 39 per cent of those said it was bad for the country.
> 
> 60 per cent of the older Australians surveyed said that they didn't support the $300 million digital set-top box scheme.
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ght-for-nation-poll-wrong-20110514-1en3e.html




Finance Minister Penny Wong doesn't give a rat's behind whether we like the budget or not. I guess we are too dumbed-down to know what's good for us.


> *FEDERAL Finance Minister Penny Wong says the budget is what's right for the country, playing down a damaging poll that shows it doesn't have the support of many Australians.*
> 
> A Galaxy Poll, published today in Sydney’s Daily Telegraph, showed only 28 per cent of respondents backed the budget, with 39 per cent saying it was bad for the country.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-supports-budget/story-fn8gf1nz-1226055814168


----------



## Calliope

Meanwhile Swannie is not worried as long as he can get a fair suck of the sav.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/voters-not-buying-tough-love-budget/story-fn6ck45n-1226055594409


----------



## trainspotter

*Criticism of population plan unjust - Wong * http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...plan-unjust-wong/story-e6frfku0-1226055803182

Is it a case of two Wongs don't make it white?

That must be the carbon tax sausage sandwich that dimwit is swallowing.

A DETAILED analysis of electricity charges has found that the jump in power bills caused by the Government's carbon pricing plan would be a snack for most families - the cost of a weekly sausage sandwich. 

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/money/carbon...te/story-e6frfmci-1226043193869#ixzz0nsCdjthy


----------



## medicowallet

trainspotter said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh yes but a very rich fool.
> 
> Young ??? Young??? Chronologically challenged ??? You do me proud MD. Yet another misdiagnosis.
> 
> Nope ...... you did not say anything about misdiagnosis. You were too quick to prattle on about how your vocation is more stressful and more important than any other job in the world and you went on to say that the "lay man" would not comprehend the "extraordinary" responsibilities you suffer in your line of work.
> 
> Whoooooppeeeeeeeeee ...... you are a doctor. An associate of mine is a retired nuclear physicist and yet another is a psychologist. I also include truck drivers and plumbers in my sphere of operations.
> 
> My decisions are easy are they?? So when the tow rope has snapped in 5 metre seas and howling 35 knots from the South West in 151 metres of depth do I call on you to get in the water to swim? Just LOL.




1. Very, is relative.  Not too many court costs for when your workers die? 
2. Just seemed that you are young. Aren't you?   
3. It is all with probabilities.  Nobody can ever guarantee anything about the human body, so many variables. Misdiagnosis is inevitable, medicine is an artform, and something you clearly do not understand with your black and white viewpoint.
4.How often does your tow rope snap?  How many of your crew have died due to the decisions you have made?  How well do you sleep at night?   Hell no, I am not going out in that!! I know my skills and limitations.

I know my reply has upset you, but clearly your decisions, however important, are insignificant to the number that a doctor makes each day.  You can try to argue that a plumber makes the same amount of serious decisions every day, but to do so makes your argument flounder and sorry, but I assume most realistic people would disagree with you too.


----------



## trainspotter

Be a good Doc and take a chill pill old wizened one. 

The agony you must put people through every day would be unbearable.

Come to think of it ..... I might have to self medicate myself right now.


----------



## wayneL

trainspotter said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh yes but a very rich fool.




Does the amount of money one purports to have mitigate one's foolishness?

I would have thought a fool is a fool.


----------



## trainspotter

wayneL said:


> Does the amount of money one purports to have mitigate one's foolishness?
> 
> I would have thought a fool is a fool.




A fool and his money are soon parted I believe. I have done some very foolish things in my time. Making money was not one of them.


----------



## wayneL

trainspotter said:


> A fool and his money are soon parted I believe. I have done some very foolish things in my time. Making money was not one of them.




1/ You didn't answer my question.

2/ Is it  important to you to broadcast how rich you are?

3/ Where do you think you fall in the wealth ranks of ASF?


----------



## trainspotter

wayneL said:


> 1/ You didn't answer my question.
> 
> 2/ Is it  important to you to broadcast how rich you are?
> 
> 3/ Where do you think you fall in the wealth ranks of ASF?




1/ Sorry ..... was off on a tangent.

2/ Nope ....... you are right. It is not important at all to me or to anyone else. 

3/ I would suggest I would be somewhere in the middle range. GG has an Arnage. I do not. Tech/a has said it costs 600k a month to run his business. Nowhere near that kind of turnover for me.


----------



## medicowallet

trainspotter said:


> Be a good Doc and take a chill pill old wizened one.
> 
> The agony you must put people through every day would be unbearable.
> 
> Come to think of it ..... I might have to self medicate myself right now.




lol, pretty close to the mark!!

I have to bite my tongue constantly, however I never let it slip.


----------



## trainspotter

medicowallet said:


> lol, pretty close to the mark!!
> 
> I have to bite my tongue constantly, however I never let it slip.




Hahaah a aaha ........ good onya Doc ! Love your work.  It has been noted that you have been in less than perfect humour lately.


----------



## Calliope

I think you both should have A Cup Of Tea, A Bex and A Good Lie Down.


----------



## Calliope

Offsiders was certainly stacked pro-Labor this morning. On the Labor side were Barrie Cassidy and Julia Gillard, with  Laura Tingle and Lenore Taylor representing the Fairfax Press. Michael Stutchbury from the Australian was interrupted ( and "corrected") every time he spoke, by the po-faced Lenore Taylor. 

Gillard was interviewed by Cassidy. She is clearly rattled by Tony Abbott. She turned every question to an attack on Tony "Abbert."


----------



## noco

I would like her accept an invitation on the Bolt show 4.30pm Sunday.

She is bound to say no way Mr Bolt.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> ...Gillard was interviewed by Cassidy. She is clearly rattled by Tony Abbott. She turned every question to an attack on Tony "Abbert."




She has to get the "r" in somewhere.  Last election campaign, she took much pleasure in slurring the r between the Mr and the Abbott to sound like Mr Rabbit.

But I don't think she is so happy to have the "r" added to Julia - even though it describes the situation perfectly, imo...


----------



## sails

Here we go with the rorting again - money making from "Building the Entertainment Revolution"...

Full story from AdelaideNow: *Digital set top box installers accused of ripping off government funds*



> COMPANIES being paid $350 to install set-top boxes for pensioners are giving the work to sub-contractors for just *$84*.


----------



## moXJO

> Most builders don't know what 90 degrees is



Wow tree get shaken or what ,where did that come from
I'd agree with that there are a lot of trades that don't know what they are doing. Considering you can get a resi builders license in 6 months now. But I'd say doctors are along the same lines of incompetence. There are some good and a lot of 4 minute diagnosis wonders "heres your antibiotics" types. I had the three doctors that couldn't diagnose my sons mumps that my 80yo Nan managed in the first second of seeing him.




medicowallet said:


> I know my reply has upset you, but clearly your decisions, however important, are insignificant to the number that a doctor makes each day.  You can try to argue that a plumber makes the same amount of serious decisions every day, but to do so makes your argument flounder and sorry, but I assume most realistic people would disagree with you too.




Plumbers come on 
Flight traffic control, officers in armed forces, offshore oil rig workers, safety officers mines or construction and a host of others all have just as or more than difficult jobs that affect lives every day. In fact head nurses deal with more crap then most doctors. 
For the average doctor in the medical centre that just churns through flu patients and misdiagnoses anything else, well they are not much better then our builder that doesn't know what 90 degrees is.  Same with any profession a whole heap of turn ups and then there are those that are good at their job. I have nothing but respect for those doctors on their game though.

Back on topic small business is copping a lot of hits from the Gillard government regarding red tape. Sole traders are about to be hit and business has well and truly soured on labor. I'm not to sure if labor is trying to achieve the death of the 'self-employed tag to trap everyone into employee status or what?
The anger towards this government is building


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> The anger towards this government is building



Yes, it is.  And the attempted distraction of the First Bloke interview, including discussion about him marrying Ms Gillard, being plastered all over several papers today will probably only increase the discontent.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Yes, it is.  And the attempted distraction of the First Bloke interview, including discussion about him marrying Ms Gillard, being plastered all over several papers today will probably only increase the discontent.




Yes, I image she has visions of herself being driven by carriage through the streets with millions of adoring fans.  I don't think she realises how much respect she has lost by deceiving the people - or she perhaps she knows but doesn't want to face reality.

It's not a wedding I would bother to watch.  It would be rather flat after the real royal wedding. To hear her saying "oye do" doesn't exactly inspire any patriotic sentiment...

But, maybe others would be more interested - each to their own.  But whether she does or she doesn't, it will be an event that comes to an end and then it will be back to conning the nation into her myriad of seemingly bizarre hare brained schemes once again.


----------



## medicowallet

moXJO said:


> Plumbers come on
> Flight traffic control, officers in armed forces, offshore oil rig workers, safety officers mines or construction and a host of others all have just as or more than difficult jobs that affect lives every day. In fact head nurses deal with more crap then most doctors.
> For the average doctor in the medical centre that just churns through flu patients and misdiagnoses anything else, well they are not much better then our builder that doesn't know what 90 degrees is.  Same with any profession a whole heap of turn ups and then there are those that are good at their job. I have nothing but respect for those doctors on their game though.




1. Learn to read prior posts to learn what I was referring to.

2. Head nurses LOVE it when doctors come in and take any responsibility off them.

3. I think comparing AT controllers etc is just a joke. How many people died in AT control accidents in Australia last year?  How many oil rig workers? How many defence force personel?    

You will never understand the decision making process until you have done it for yourself. So please, continue to live in your safe world where the decisions you make one day are very unlikely to result in the harm of others, or less importantly the health of yourself the next. 

What if it was meningitis and not mumps?  Diagnosis and treatment with probabilities is dangerous, and the type of decisions made are not for everyone, especially those with limited understanding of the real world.


----------



## sptrawler

The Gillard government is definitely looking like a rudderless ship. The budget was a joke and the lack of cofidence is being demonstrated by the stock market and consumer spending.
Now this week we have Julia telling us that people will see through Tony's negativity, talk about self denial. Now she tops it off by trying to change the focus of the agenda by marriage speculation. This get funnier and funnier at least Bob knows where his best chance of a double wedding is.
At least Bob is honest when he says he is going to support these idiots, if they go he goes anyway. Still depends on the Independents holding rank I can't see it if the polls keep heading south and still no goals from the government.
After 4 years what do they have to show a half ar$$$ed internet upgrade that no one wants a blowout in government debt and a prayer that China keeps us out of the $#!t.
Thats not governing it is winging it on a hope and a prayer.


----------



## Logique

sails said:


> Yes, I image she has visions of herself being driven by carriage through the streets...



Pumpkin Coach I believe that would be.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> It's not a wedding I would bother to watch.  It would be rather flat after the real royal wedding. To hear her saying "oye do" doesn't exactly inspire any patriotic sentiment.




She would do it if she thought it would boost her re-election chances, however it doesn't always work out;



> Nicolas Sarkozy has held on to his title of the most unpopular president in the history of the Fifth republic, dashing any hopes of a Bruni-Sarkozy baby boost to his re-election chances.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nancy-fails-to-bring-husband-baby-bounce.html


----------



## medicowallet

sptrawler said:


> The Gillard government is definitely looking like a rudderless ship.




Love the pun


----------



## sptrawler

Yes it's a rudderless ship on a swanless lake with,brown overcast skies. Thats from a dubious independent forecast.


----------



## joea

Hi!
I have read some of the post about doctors.

7 days ago on Sunday afternoon, one of my sons had a accident going over to a friends
place, where there were to make pizza's for the parents on Mothers day.

He had a accident when a p-plater did a u - turn as he was passing.
He lost his lower left leg 6 - 8 centimetres below his knee.

I have currently been at the ICU (Intensive Care Unit) in Cairns for a week until he was processed.

What I witnessed, opened my eyes. It is another world, where time only seems to be stable between 7.30 am - 8.30 am when they have a meeting. The rest of the time they work in relation to the emergancy's for the days.
Yes the doctoring is a small part and the recovery is the big part.

But they save peoples lives. They are people oriented to the patients and family. They
seem to be a part of your family for a period, and then recovery takes over and the patients are gone. 
I thought normal people are in a rut. We are "drones". We wake at a certain time to a time table and go about our lives. Then bitch about what we don't like.
The ICU unit staff go to work at a particular time, and then all hell brakes loose until
they finish their shift.
I take my hat off to these doctors, and I wonder what made them choose that career.

I am not looking for sympathy. But I did this post to say that "not is all as it seems"
To me Doctors are special people, more now than 8 days ago. At the very least I still have my son. As parents, " when our children hurt, we hurt".

I just wonder how this type of doctor winds down before sleep each day or night.

Cheer


----------



## sptrawler

WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH THE GILLARD GOVERNMENT.
START A THREAD DOCTORS ARE CRAP/ DOCTORS ARE WONDERFULL.
BUT GET IT OFF THIS THREAD . JEEZ GIVE US A BREAK


----------



## trainspotter

LMFAOOOOORRF..... Sorry. ... Am looking at this thread through a internrt phone. Just read joea post. Omfg. ... Sorry is not enough


----------



## trainspotter

sptrawler said:


> WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH THE GILLARD GOVERNMENT.
> START A THREAD DOCTORS ARE CRAP/ DOCTORS ARE WONDERFULL.
> BUT GET IT OFF THIS THREAD . JEEZ GIVE US A BREAK




Sheet i feel sorry now. ... Bugger. ... And bugger again. .. Sorry about what happenes. Sheewt


----------



## sptrawler

Well wasn't being funny trainspotter, however if it is such a controversial issue it must be worth it's own thread, rather than fragmenting this one.
On the other hand if this thread has run its course it should be closed.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Watching the slow death of this Gillard government is like ....

Pulling teeth.

gg


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> 7 days ago on Sunday afternoon, one of my sons had a accident going over to a friends
> place, where there were to make pizza's for the parents on Mothers day.
> 
> He had a accident when a p-plater did a u - turn as he was passing.
> He lost his lower left leg 6 - 8 centimetres below his knee.



joea, I'm so very sorry about your son.  That's just a dreadful thing to happen, for him and for you.
As TS says, there really are not the words.
At least know some of your friends on ASF are really feeling for you.  It's going to take a lot of courage and determination  in the weeks and months ahead.
With every best wish, encouragement, and sincere concern.
Julia


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> joea, I'm so very sorry about your son.  That's just a dreadful thing to happen, for him and for you.
> As TS says, there really are not the words.
> At least know some of your friends on ASF are really feeling for you.  It's going to take a lot of courage and determination  in the weeks and months ahead.
> With every best wish, encouragement, and sincere concern.
> Julia




JOEA I am so sorry to hear of the accident that happened to your son, I know how hard it is when something terrible happens to your child. Trust me when I say I know how hard it is.
Our best wishes are with you


----------



## medicowallet

Best wishes for your son Joea.

I hope that his recovery goes well. 

All the best

MW


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> JOEA I am so sorry to hear of the accident that happened to your son, I know how hard it is when something terrible happens to your child. Trust me when I say I know how hard it is.
> Our best wishes are with you




I should have added your strength will give your child strength, don't weaken brother he will need you.


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> Hi!
> I have read some of the post about doctors.
> 
> 7 days ago on Sunday afternoon, one of my sons had a accident going over to a friends
> place, where there were to make pizza's for the parents on Mothers day.
> 
> He had a accident when a p-plater did a u - turn as he was passing.
> He lost his lower left leg 6 - 8 centimetres below his knee.
> 
> I have currently been at the ICU (Intensive Care Unit) in Cairns for a week until he was processed.
> 
> What I witnessed, opened my eyes. It is another world, where time only seems to be stable between 7.30 am - 8.30 am when they have a meeting. The rest of the time they work in relation to the emergancy's for the days.
> Yes the doctoring is a small part and the recovery is the big part.
> 
> But they save peoples lives. They are people oriented to the patients and family. They
> seem to be a part of your family for a period, and then recovery takes over and the patients are gone.
> I thought normal people are in a rut. We are "drones". We wake at a certain time to a time table and go about our lives. Then bitch about what we don't like.
> The ICU unit staff go to work at a particular time, and then all hell brakes loose until
> they finish their shift.
> I take my hat off to these doctors, and I wonder what made them choose that career.
> 
> I am not looking for sympathy. But I did this post to say that "not is all as it seems"
> To me Doctors are special people, more now than 8 days ago. At the very least I still have my son. As parents, " when our children hurt, we hurt".
> 
> I just wonder how this type of doctor winds down before sleep each day or night.
> 
> Cheer




joea that's a hell of a stressful story when our kids get hurt it can tear our hearts out best wishers to your son, yourself and family.

IF


----------



## sails

Joea - so sorry to hear of the distress for your son.  It must have been a worrying time for you and very difficult for him too.  I trust he makes a good recovery and that he will eventually become inspired by others whom have lost limbs and yet still achieve their goals in life.  It almost seems so flippant just to type a few lines, but please be assured that your friends at ASF do care and please keep us updated to his progress...


----------



## noco

Does Gillard and  Swan really know what they are doing? 

I reckon a hand full of high school kids would do a hell of lot better.

Could we see a Labor back bench revolt any time soon? I believe it is not a matter of "IF" but "WHEN" AND THE SOONER THE BETTER.

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/labor_close_to_panic/


----------



## Logique

Labor has nothing to lose now, they may as well have a caucus spill and ballot. Conversely the PM will feel she has nothing to lose by staying. The winners are the Greens. The losers are us, and Chris Bowen.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> Labor has nothing to lose now, they may as well have a caucus spill and ballot. Conversely the PM will feel she has nothing to lose by staying. The winners are the Greens. The losers are us, and Chris Bowen.




The Caucas can't replace Gillard. It's a sad commentary on the Labor Party but she is the pick of the bunch. Bowen and Combet have become ineffective - they have been too involved with Labor's most unpopular policies, the boats and the carbon tax.


----------



## sails

I went with my  daughter to her GP this morning as he has now been treating her a few years for depression and other health related issues that are often the result of poor choices due to the long term depression.

He is a GP that has had a special interest in mental health for almost 30 years, and now he finds that the money allocated for mental health is partly being paid by stripping GP rebates for mental health consultations.

This is absurd - but what isn't absurd with this government...  Swan sprouts off the 1.5 billion injection into mental health, but then partly pays for it by making it difficult for patients to get treatment at the GP level. This is unbelievably stupid, imo.

In my daughter's case, having a GP manage her condition is working well as he is able to address the other health issues at the same time.  If she were under the care of a psychiatrist, he/she would not be qualified to address the other issues, so it makes more sense to let the GPs who have an interest in this area to be in the front line with these patients and then referring to specialists as the need arises.

Mental illness is a tough thing to treat, imo. I have been present for many of the GP visits and there are times it must be depressing for the treating GP as this type of illness doesn't always just get better.  Although, this GP is pretty good at sorting out what is causing the latest issues.  So, I am appalled that this government has no insight into the reality of supporting and helping to care for an inflicted person and now intends to reduce funding from the treating GP. 

It seems plenty of funds for other causes of their choosing.  Plenty of money for Gillard and her entourage and private jet to go to London to see the Queen.  Shame on them.

More on it here:  http://www.medicalobserver.com.au/news/doctors-paid-too-much-for-mental-health-role-says-minister



> The Minister’s comments followed strong criticism earlier this week from AMA president Dr Andrew Pesce, who claimed the Budget measure devalues the role of the family doctor.
> 
> “The changes will take the family doctor out of the coordinating care role for people with mental health issues," Dr Pesce said earlier this week.
> 
> “We need to improve funding for mental health but this Budget decision gives with one hand and takes away with the other.”




So why bother with mental health at all if GPs and other mental health professionals will possibly try to reduce their time with these patients?  The good ones will probably just take it on the chin, but I think it will decrease the motivation for mental health providers to help those in our community who desperately need the help. 

Sorry for the rant, but I am appalled.  Does anyone know if there is anything we can do apart from public awareness?


----------



## medicowallet

sails said:


> If she were under the care of a psychiatrist, he/she would not be qualified to address the other issues, so it makes more sense to let the GPs who have an interest in this area to be in the front line with these patients and then referring to specialists as the need arises.
> 
> Mental illness is a tough thing to treat, imo. I have been present for many of the GP visits and there are times it must be depressing for the treating GP as this type of illness doesn't always just get better.




What psychiatrist?  
Don't we have a shortage of them?

Where is Swann going to get them from?


----------



## Logique

> *Sails*:
> ...He is a GP that has had a special interest in mental health for almost 30 years, and now he finds that the money allocated for mental health is partly being paid by stripping GP rebates for mental health consultations.
> 
> This is absurd - but what isn't absurd with this government... Swan sprouts off the 1.5 billion injection into mental health, but then partly pays for it by making it difficult for patients to get treatment at the GP level. This is unbelievably stupid, imo...



Thanks, wasn't aware of that Sailsy. I'll take it up with my local MLA. Big plank of theirs in the last election. Ridiculous to undermine the frontline care givers -our local GP, it makes no sense.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Thanks, wasn't aware of that Sailsy. I'll take it up with my local MLA. Big plank of theirs in the last election. Ridiculous to undermine the frontline care givers -our local GP, it makes no sense.




Thanks Logique - any help would be great...  

I was surprised when the GP mentioned it this morning as I hadn't heard that the GPs were going to be cut in funding when treating mental health patients.  He will continue to treat my daughter, albeit with less rebate, but I wonder how many GPs will be as caring?  Perhaps they will limit the number of new mental health patients - and that is a sad.  My daughter was suicidal before and early in her treatment, and I don't know what we would have done without finding this GP.

So, it's not just for my daughter, but I feel for those who are struggling with mental health issues.  Unfortunately, these sufferers are often not in a position to fight for their cause, so I feel it is a terrible indictement on this government to risk the well being of a vulnerable section of the community with this bizarre policy to "pay" for about a third of their mental health package.  We are being treated as fools, imo.

I'm about to show some  ignorance here, Logique, but is the term MLA the same as the local federal MP?...


----------



## sptrawler

I see in todays paper, unless the carbon price is $40, Bob is going to hold his breath and trow a tantrum.
Thats just one day after he swore his undying support for the government, what a dick.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I went with my  daughter to her GP this morning as he has now been treating her a few years for depression and other health related issues that are often the result of poor choices due to the long term depression.
> 
> He is a GP that has had a special interest in mental health for almost 30 years, and now he finds that the money allocated for mental health is partly being paid by stripping GP rebates for mental health consultations.



Maybe look into the details here, Sails.  I might be wrong, but my impression from reading about this forthcoming measure is that it is only intended to affect the "Care Plan" a GP does in preparation for referring a patient to a psychologist for a series of six or twelve sessions.

Medicowallet may be able to enlarge on this, but my understanding is that when such a referral occurs the GP is supposed to see the patient for an extended interview during which he/she prepares the 'care plan' which describes the patient's overall situation and the need for various ancillary treatment.
Again, I might be understanding it incorrectly, but such a plan also had to be prepared before referring a patient with a longstanding condition to physiotherapy, dental care, nutritional advice et al.

Your GP may have given you an incorrect impression, or my understanding of the proposed change may be in error.





> This is absurd - but what isn't absurd with this government...  Swan sprouts off the 1.5 billion injection into mental health, but then partly pays for it by making it difficult for patients to get treatment at the GP level. This is unbelievably stupid, imo.



Indeed if that's what will happen.  But I don't think there will be any change in remuneration for a GP treating a patient for a mental illness.  Just where it involves making a referral to a psychologist/psychiatrist.
I wasn't able to discover from reading the newspaper report whether the actual six/twelve sessions from a psychologist are still available via Medicare or whether this is actually to also be curtailed.

Again, perhaps you can help here Medicowallet?



sails said:


> I'm about to show some  ignorance here, Logique, but is the term MLA the same as the local federal MP?...



 Member of the Legislative Assembly


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> Maybe look into the details here, Sails.  I might be wrong, but my impression from reading about this forthcoming measure is that it is only intended to affect the "Care Plan" a GP does in preparation for referring a patient to a psychologist for a series of six or twelve sessions.
> 
> Medicowallet may be able to enlarge on this, but my understanding is that when such a referral occurs the GP is supposed to see the patient for an extended interview during which he/she prepares the 'care plan' which describes the patient's overall situation and the need for various ancillary treatment.
> Again, I might be understanding it incorrectly, but such a plan also had to be prepared before referring a patient with a longstanding condition to physiotherapy, dental care, nutritional advice et al.
> 
> Your GP may have given you an incorrect impression, or my understanding of the proposed change may be in error.




That sort of sums up my understanding too Julia (but I am not a GP so I am not certain)

I do know that some GPs were happy with the arrangement as they felt it helped address issues of remuneration regarding the paperwork etc that was involved, so I think that it was a worthwhile initiative. 

Let's hope this reshuffling, with added money is administered properly and results in better outcomes for patients.  Time will tell.


----------



## sails

Here's another article on it and the excerpt below is Abbott's take on it.  I have added the bold which explains about the rebates for GPs and ties in with what the GP said this morning which is simply rebates being cut for long consultations with mental health patients.  Having sat in on them, I believe it would be hard to deal with most mental health issues in a ten minute consultation: 



> 'When you look into the figures, they're actually cutting other mental health expenditure like the Medicare-funded psychologist consultations, *like the rebates for GPs to do long consultations with mental health patients*,'' he said.




Full story from The Age: PM has broken pledge on mental health: opposition


Thanks Julia - Yes, I knew that MLA = Member of the Legislative Assembly, but when googling it, only state MLA info seemed to come up.  So is it the same thing as our federal MPs?


----------



## sptrawler

I think the Gillard government are just about to move into the departure lounge. The issue with W.A has the potential to absolutely blow up in their face.
Coming out of the corner throwing threats and punitive action against W.A . It rings of exactly the same bullying methods they adopt with anyone they think it can intimidate. 
Australians don't like bullies, especially ones that fold when they are confronted ala the super profits tax and miners.
The juries out on their bullying of Telstra, time will show if they were outsmarted by Telstra.
This has the makings of a national display of Gillards and Swans lack of nous. 
Also if it becomes a national debacle the independents will definitely jump ship. There is one thing hanging out with the bullies, but when they keep loosing you have to hang out with someone else. LOL LOL LOL
This is really becomming the comedy company show.


----------



## Julia

Can they do what they're threatening, and reduce infrastructure funding and GST revenue to W.A.?
(I have no idea how all this stuff works).
Mr Barnett seems  very confident he has the Feds over a barrel.
Is his confidence justified?


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Can they do what they're threatening, and reduce infrastructure funding and GST revenue to W.A.?
> (I have no idea how all this stuff works).
> Mr Barnett seems  very confident he has the Feds over a barrel.
> Is his confidence justified?




I believe Colin Barnett is a very astute politician and I'm sure he would have carried out 'home work' before making that decision. He certainly has put Gillard and Swan into a rage. 
If the Feds do cut back his GST, it will back fire on them and I would not be surprised if Barnett mounted a legal challenge over it all.
IMHO I reckon Gillard and Swan are bluffing. It certainly won't win them any votes in WA.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Can they do what they're threatening, and reduce infrastructure funding and GST revenue to W.A.?
> (I have no idea how all this stuff works).
> Mr Barnett seems  very confident he has the Feds over a barrel.
> Is his confidence justified?




Noco, is spot on, I am guessing Barnett will make fools of Gillard and Swan but that obviously isn't hard.
They have already blown their feet off by threatening punitive measures against a States rights.
Doesn't look good on the national stage.
I am sure they will make a movie about this government in the future its sure to be a great comedy.


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Can they do what they're threatening, and reduce infrastructure funding and GST revenue to W.A.?
> (I have no idea how all this stuff works).
> Mr Barnett seems  very confident he has the Feds over a barrel.
> Is his confidence justified?




Julia.
Yeaterday, Royal Dutch Shell announced it has approved its 1st Prelude floating LNG project off WA. Capital costs of up to $US12.6B.

I have two sons working on a 26,000 tonne platform in South Korea. That is coming to waters off WA. Woodside Petroleum has 3 big projects off WA.

I think you will find Barnett has a second office to deal with the LNG & mining projects coming his way.
So yes, he is probably confident, that Swan cannot hurt him. After all, Swan is all talk and no action that I have seen.

Cheers


----------



## trainspotter

Well you can't say they didn't know about it ! Taken from here ---------------> http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/gillard-government-threatens-wa-infrastructure-ove

*25th March 2011*



> *Gillard Government threatens WA infrastructure over mining royalty rates *
> 
> The Federal Government has stated that $2 billion in funding for infrastructure upgrades could be under threat if WA tries to increase mining royalty rates under the Mineral Resources Rent Tax (MRRT).
> 
> Federal resources minister Martin Ferguson and treasurer Wayne Swan said that pledges, including infrastructure funding for Western Australia, is at risk if the Opposition or State Government deviated from the MRRT, according to The West.
> 
> Swan explained that there were mechanisms in place for the Government to be able to stop the States increasing royalty rates.
> 
> WA premier Colin Barnett slammed the Government threat to hamstring the State if it increased the royalty rates, adding that it reserved the right to do so.
> 
> This comes after Fortescue Metals Twiggy Forrest also attacked the MRRT, saying that it was unfair tax that was essentially designed by BHP.


----------



## Julia

apologies for diversion from topic:  joea have you checked your PM inbox?


----------



## IFocus

So you can raise royalties (dinosaur tax) if you are Liberal but cannot have a mining tax  if you are Labor?


----------



## sails

Money, money, money - labor seems to have a never ending money tree when it's something they want.


> $11 million furniture makeover for parliament
> Chairs, desks, shelves in 226 offices changed
> Change will take place regardless of condition
> HUNDREDS of perfectly good desks, chairs and other office equipment will be discarded in an $11 million-plus furniture makeover in federal parliament.




Full article from News.com: An $11 million furniture makeover for Australia's seats of power


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Money, money, money - labor seems to have a never ending money tree when it's something they want.
> 
> 
> Full article from News.com: An $11 million furniture makeover for Australia's seats of power




They borrow $140 million every day. $11 million on new furniture is just peanuts to Gillard and Swan.


----------



## Julia

The funds directed to Tony Windsor's New England electorate are blatant bribery.
No wonder he continues to profess his support for the government.
So disproportionate compared to other electorates.  
(Though maybe Mr Oakeshott's electorate has been similarly favoured?)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...royally-rewarded/story-fn59niix-1226059968485


----------



## Calliope

Gillard has spoken. Man-made climate change is real. And Gillard never lies.



> JULIA Gillard has responded to Barnaby Joyce's claim that Australia cannot effect climate change saying the country does not have time for false claims.
> The Prime Minister told reporters that she accepts the government's peer-reviewed report on Climate Change which warns that people are to blame for rising temperatures, with the last decade the hottest on record.
> 
> "We don't have time ... for false claims in this debate," said Julia Gillard.
> "The science is in, climate change is real. The science is clear - man-made carbon pollution is making a difference to our planet and our climate.




Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/cli...it/story-e6frfkvr-1226060763269#ixzz1N9veEpjQ


----------



## wayneL

> The Prime Minister told reporters that she accepts the government's peer-reviewed report on Climate Change which warns that people are to blame for rising temperatures, with the last decade the hottest on record.




The tax take in the last decade is also the highest on record.

What does Dullard intend to do about that?


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> The tax take in the last decade is also the highest on record.
> 
> What does Dullard intend to do about that?




Didnt see a link with your comment?


The fiscal stimulus over which Swan presided in 2008-09 was arguably too great and poorly targeted, but it is unarguable that Australia did not have a recession while the rest of the West did. Obviously China's continuing demand for raw materials contributed as well, but the series of fast decisions in Swan's portfolio in 2008 were undoubtedly important in keeping thousands of Australians in work.

This morning's Australian contains an analysis by George Megalogenis of Government spending growth under various Treasurers since John Howard in 1978-79, which shows that if the *projections in last week's budget come to pass Swan will be the lowest spending Treasurer, with 1 per cent per annum.*

That's a big if. Spending growth in 2008-09 was 12.7 per cent; in 2009-10, 4.2 per cent. But those were special times (see point 1 above).

According to George Megalogenis, average annual spending growth under Treasurer John Howard was *2.3 per cent*, under Paul Keating it was 2.2 per cent, in Peter Costello's first four budgets, spending growth was 1.9 per cent and in the last seven budgets it was* 3.3 per cent.*

BTW what is the current unemployment rate in Australia?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/16/3217469.htm


----------



## sails

It seems that one of the biggest differences between the left and the right is that the left only look for the "now" with little or no concern what the spending and decisions of this Rudd and now Gillard government will have on the country in future generations.

Those from the right seem to have more concern for the next generations who may be saddled with huge debt, potential religious/political interference in our way of life and an economy with high unemployment.

Employment might be OK for now, but what are the longer term effects of the Rudd and Gillard "policies on the run"?  What will be the longer term effects on the country's economics if/when a carbon tax is forced on us?

Sure, we can be selfish and not care, but I have growing grandchildren and there is no way I want to see them with massive taxes paying off this government's seemingly mindless spending sprees and find themselves under restrictive laws of certain religious/political groups.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> It seems that one of the biggest differences between the left and the right is that the left only look for the "now" with little or no concern what the spending and decisions of this Rudd and now Gillard government will have on the country in future generations.
> 
> Those from the right seem to have more concern for the next generations who may be saddled with huge debt, potential religious/political interference in our way of life and an economy with high unemployment.
> 
> Employment might be OK for now, but what are the longer term effects of the Rudd and Gillard "policies on the run"?  What will be the longer term effects on the country's economics if/when a carbon tax is forced on us?
> 
> Sure, we can be selfish and not care, but I have growing grandchildren and there is no way I want to see them with massive taxes paying off this government's seemingly mindless spending sprees and find themselves under restrictive laws of certain religious/political groups.



 Ã'm with you on this sails, I have grandchildren and hope they are in a position to pay tax, at least that will show they have a job. What worries me is the huge wasted spending in the last three years and the stupid sending comming up on the N.B.N.
The amount of money, somewhere in the vicinity of $100billion, I just can't get my head around none of it is on infrastructure that will feed our kids or provide them with jobs.
If this is the way labor thinks you build a better Australia they are fools. 
I really see it like me giving my bankbook to my teenage kids and saying run the family finances. They would run around like chooks with their heads cut off, new car, buy a plasma and wow must have high speed broadband for the study and gamming of course.
Is there any wonder labor get thrown out after they have made a shambles of the finances.
It's just so bL@@@dy sad
I really hope we are both wrong, but it sounds as though we have been around long enough to be able to tell $#iit from clay without having to taste it.


----------



## Knobby22

I actually think both parties are not addressing the problems.

I want to see the Libs propose some reforms. Its not all about balancing budgets. Nothing much has happened since Howards second term.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> Ã'm with you on this sails, I have grandchildren and hope they are in a position to pay tax, at least that will show they have a job.
> ...I really see it like me giving my bankbook to my teenage kids and saying run the family finances. They would run around like chooks with their heads cut off, new car, buy a plasma and wow must have high speed broadband for the study and gamming of course.




Are your "teenage kids" the parents of your "grandchildren?" They must start breeding young in the trawler family.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> Are your "teenage kids" the parents of your "grandchildren?" They must start breeding young in the trawler family.




No I was just being reflective, remembering what they were like when they lived at home.
Does show your on the ball though. That was your brain trainer for the day LOL.


----------



## joea

When I was a young fellow my mother said you get into less trouble when you tell the truth.
I passed it on to my children.
I have passed it on to my grandsons(3 of)
Now two of the  three little fellow understand it ( 4 & 6). the other guy is 2.

So what happened to Swan & Gillard?????

There is a bit missing here somewhere.

Cheers


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> When I was a young fellow my mother said you get into less trouble when you tell the truth.
> I passed it on to my children.
> I have passed it on to my grandsons(3 of)
> Now two of the  three little fellow understand it ( 4 & 6). the other guy is 2.
> 
> So what happened to *Abbott*, Swan & Gillard?????
> 
> There is a bit missing here somewhere.
> 
> Cheers





...................Found the bit missing.


----------



## joea

IFocus said:


> ...................Found the bit missing.




Yeah you maybe right!!

I got to admit you are very quick off the mark.  lol
actually I needed that to pick me up a bit.
Cheers


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> I actually think both parties are not addressing the problems.
> 
> I want to see the Libs propose some reforms. Its not all about balancing budgets. Nothing much has happened since Howards second term.



 Agree.   Much as I despair about the current government, I'm unable to feel that the Opposition represent salvation.  They are all self-serving with little genuine thought as to what is really best for Australia and her people, intent merely on furthering their own personal ambitions toward power.


----------



## qldfrog

Julia said:


> Agree.   Much as I despair about the current government, I'm unable to feel that the Opposition represent salvation.  They are all self-serving with little genuine thought as to what is really best for Australia and her people, intent merely on furthering their own personal ambitions toward power.




I agree with you Julia, bring us back Costello, or even Keating; we needs some balls here: ideas, leaderships, goals;


----------



## Logique

qldfrog said:


> I agree with you Julia, bring us back Costello, or even Keating; we needs some balls here: ideas, leaderships, goals;



Yes it has to be said, the Libs stand accountable for at least some of our present predicament as a nation.

They were determined to ride John Howard's coat tails, right into Opposition. They simply would not see that Howard had to go, 12 mths before the election. Costello just never had the numbers in the party.

I reckon most would crawl over broken glass to get him back, as would any taxpayer with an ounce of financial literacy. The surplus provided under Costello's Treasury is the real reason Australia stayed afloat during the GFC. 

Having consistently opposed Costello in parliament, this current mob of ALP-Green 'drunken sailor'-like spenders run around claiming the credit, as if they had something to do with it. 

So there, I've been even handed and criticized everybody.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> So there, I've been even handed and criticized everybody.




Well done Logique!
Reading today that Karl Bitar, recently no.1 guy in the Labor party now will work for Crown to try to slow pokies reform just makes me hate the political class.

Wouldn't it be good if one of the major political parties said that we should have the law that you can't take positions like this. Even in the US you have to wait 2 years after you quit.

Its all about the gravy train for many of the scum that make up our political parties now. No wonder Labor and Lib memberships are at an all time low.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Well done Logique!
> Reading today that Karl Bitar, recently no.1 guy in the Labor party now will work for Crown to try to slow pokies reform just makes me hate the political class.
> 
> Wouldn't it be good if one of the major political parties said that we should have the law that you can't take positions like this. Even in the US you have to wait 2 years after you quit.
> 
> Its all about the gravy train for many of the scum that make up our political parties now. No wonder Labor and Lib memberships are at an all time low.




The Labor NSW right were / are in a class of their own.


----------



## pixel

John Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6 am. 
While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG).
He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA).
After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. 
After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) filled it with GAS (from Saudi Arabia) and continued his search for a good paying AUSTRALIAN JOB. 
At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his Computer (made in MALAYSIA), John decided to relax for a while. 
He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL), poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a decent paying job in AUSTRALIA.

*AND NOW HE'S HOPING HE CAN GET HELP FROM THE GOVERNMENT WHO ARE GOING TO CREATE EVEN MORE JOBS OVERSEAS WITH A CARBON TAX DESIGNED TO DESTROY EVEN MORE AUSTRALIAN JOBS BECAUSE IT'S IN THE "NATIONAL INTEREST" -  *according to an `Un-Elected PRIME MINISTER’ MADE IN WALES.


----------



## Calliope

And the Carbon Tax is strongly supported by Penny Wong...Made in Malaysia.


----------



## boofhead

Doesn't the WTO rules allow for carbon tax tarrifs?


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Can they do what they're threatening, and reduce infrastructure funding and GST revenue to W.A.?
> (I have no idea how all this stuff works).
> Mr Barnett seems  very confident he has the Feds over a barrel.
> Is his confidence justified?




Well Julia it seems the action is moving up a notch.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...berra-eyes-china/story-fn6q7nm8-1226064451924

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...nd-in-tax-debate/story-e6frgago-1226064396114


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Well Julia it seems the action is moving up a notch.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...berra-eyes-china/story-fn6q7nm8-1226064451924
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...nd-in-tax-debate/story-e6frgago-1226064396114



From the second link, outgoing Woodside boss Don Voelte gave Wayne Swan this backhander,



> At The Australian Deutsche Bank Business Leaders Forum yesterday in Perth, outgoing Woodside boss Don Voelte echoed the views of many in the industry when he praised Resources Minister Martin Ferguson but treated Swan with contempt, *saying he had been taught only to say nice things about people, so would say nothing about Swan.*




Colin Barnett also got stuck into the proposed carbon tax,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...tonne-carbon-tax/story-fn6q7nm8-1226064412865


----------



## Julia

Thanks sp and dr.  Read those articles with interest in "The Australian" this morning.
Mr Swan's credibility is looking minimal, to say the least.

This, from one of the articles:


> The economy is a lot weaker than most people think and certainly anyone in discretionary retail would quickly agree.




We've been hearing too much about the riches brought with mining, and imo this bravado has distorted the reality of an economy which is starting to look like a cause for concern.


----------



## trainspotter

The REAL Juliar Gizzard address's the media scrum on parliament steps.





Hard to believe 3 and half years ago we had very little debt and a rosy outlook.


----------



## sails

TS, all that's missing is a witch hat and a broom...


----------



## noco

sails said:


> TS, all that's missing is a witch hat and a broom...




If she is going to ride the broom, I hope it is solar powered!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sptrawler

trainspotter said:


> The REAL Juliar Gizzard address's the media scrum on parliament steps.
> 
> View attachment 43069
> 
> 
> Hard to believe 3 and half years ago we had very little debt and a rosy outlook.
> 
> View attachment 43070




Well trainspotter, that just about sums it up, there is nothing like a graphic representation to show how bad it is. Well done a picture says a thousand words.
Just wish we had something to show for the debt.
Oh well just another 10 years of being flogged to pay back labors spend fest.
One good thing is another generation gets to learn first hand what a labor government does to your future.


----------



## sails

Latest Newspoll has fluctuated slightly, however, still has labor well behind.

Full article from the Australian by Dennis Shanahan:ALP fails to profit from Liberal ructions: Newspoll 

This paragraph caught my eye:



> Labor MPs had hoped a sustained attack against Mr Abbott - in which they claimed he was all "mindless negativity" while encouraging publicity about Liberal divisions over the carbon tax - would drag down the Coalition's support in the polls and damage Mr Abbott's leadership.




IFocus - are you a labor MP or in some official capacity for labor?  Because your "sustained attacks against Mr Abbott" have been quite noticable lately...

And Essential Media also put out a poll yesterday: http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Latest Newspoll has fluctuated slightly, however, still has labor well behind.
> 
> Full article from the Australian by Dennis Shanahan:ALP fails to profit from Liberal ructions: Newspoll



God bless The Australian or not, Labor is toast. They could only manage a slight bounce in the numbers despite the recently wrecked furnature inside the house of Liberal.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> God bless The Australian or not, Labor is toast. They could only manage a slight bounce in the numbers despite the recently wrecked furnature inside the house of Liberal.




Yes, and furniture that Turnbull helped to wreck.  Whose side is he on?  One wonders if his role for labor is to upset the coalition as much as possible.  Seems more than coincidence that Turnbull chose the timing of his dummy spit when labor's strategy was to attack Abbott negatively as much as possible.  One would think Turnbull has really burned his bridges to contest Coalition leadership now.


----------



## sptrawler

Well Julia has realised she is surrounded by dip ships. She is scrambling to find anyone, who can save her from blowing another 100billion on something they don't understand. 
Its called the economy, I would suggest Julia, Kevin and Wayne do a T.A.F.E course to learn a bit about it. 
Anyway a big vote of confidence in Wayne from Julia, I don't think.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...personal-adviser/story-fn59niix-1226067206171

A bit like when Kev 07 hired Peter Costello, because he thought Costello was really clever. That was after 10 years of bagging him.
The only thing that will save this government is if the independents are stupid enough to hold ranks. If they are, the next election will be the biggest landslide in history.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Yes, and furniture that Turnbull helped to wreck.  Whose side is he on?  One wonders if his role for labor is to upset the coalition as much as possible.  Seems more than coincidence that Turnbull chose the timing of his dummy spit when labor's strategy was to attack Abbott negatively as much as possible.  One would think Turnbull has really burned his bridges to contest Coalition leadership now.




Actually poor old Malcolm is starting to look as though he has a vested interest in ensuring Julias carbon tax gets up. Maybe he has invested some of the family fortune in carbon positive investments, maybe he has invested too much in a positve labor outcome.
These things normally come out in the wash.
Anyway no matter what the outcome neither side likes a person whose allegiance wavers issue to issue. They should run as independents if they can't gain support for their ideas from the party behind closed doors. That's what integrity is about.


----------



## Logique

Watched Q&A last night. That comedian guy in the dark glasses isn't available to become PM is he? Austen Tayshus I think, he dealt expertly with Lee Rhiannon, and the two other pollies.

Interesting to see Nicola Roxon on there. Here is someone in the sweetest of sweet spots in todays Australia. Not for her the soul (and potentially career) destroying Ministries of Climate Change or Immigration. Time enough to pick up the kids from the parliament creche, and the sisterhood there to watch her back.

Gillard will be dragged kicking and screaming from the PM'ship, the sisterhood will see to that. Don't say meouw to us.

That was an untruth about Nauru last night. Only 40% of the refugees that passed through Nauru were subsequently accepted in Australia as refugees.


----------



## sptrawler

Well the cracks are starting to widen, even Ferguson is starting to see the light. You can't run a country with a minority government that is dependent on the support of loonies. Actually I am not sure which section is the loonie element, labor, greens or independents.
The comments at the end of the attached article are fairly inflamatory.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/wa/9610739/ferguson-backs-uranium-nuclear-power/

Maybe Ferguson is positioning himself for a spill?


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> The comments at the end of the attached article are fairly inflamatory.



Those comments are tame and at least factual compared to the following,



One thing is for sure. There would be no love lost between the two.


----------



## sptrawler

Jeez trainspotter that is a sure sign there is "trouble at mill" . Ferguson has a big power base and if Brown can't work with him it can only end up in tears for the Government.
But smiles all round for us plebs, at last a light at the end of the tunnel. Yeh


----------



## sptrawler

It's funny how people change when they are on the other side of the fence. Martin Ferguson today in the S.M.H
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...leave-a-disgrace-ferguson-20110609-1ftsq.html
He didn't seem too worried about the cost to business when he was with the M.W.U or the A.C.T.U and Liberal were in office.
Maybe workers are hoarding leave because they are worried about job security with this government in office.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> It's funny how people change when they are on the other side of the fence. Martin Ferguson today in the S.M.H
> http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel...leave-a-disgrace-ferguson-20110609-1ftsq.html
> He didn't seem too worried about the cost to business when he was with the M.W.U or the A.C.T.U and Liberal were in office.
> Maybe workers are hoarding leave because they are worried about job security with this government in office.




You have hit the nail on the head. And that's probably why the retailers are in a slump.
Everybody savings, because they watch the media too, and they are thinking we are in big trouble with this government.
Also Ferguson understands how big business work. (Swan will still be working it out in his retirement). If big business is not working, we are in trouble.

I do not think it will be long now.

Cheers


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Well the cracks are starting to widen, even Ferguson is starting to see the light. You can't run a country with a minority government that is dependent on the support of loonies. Actually I am not sure which section is the loonie element, labor, greens or independents.
> The comments at the end of the attached article are fairly inflamatory.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/wa/9610739/ferguson-backs-uranium-nuclear-power/
> 
> Maybe Ferguson is positioning himself for a spill?




Yes, I think Ferguson has seen the light for some time now, particularly with the Greens.


----------



## sptrawler

Unfortunately Julia is looking less and less like a leader as time goes by. 
Trying to keep Bob under control seems completely beyond her. Now with a public stoush between Martin and Bob flaring it would indicate a major breakdown in discipline or else it's a precursor Labor might be getting another leader.
Her poor handling of the asylum seekers and no obvious improvement in measurable achievements must be worrying the power brokers in the party.
Also. not being personal, her voice and media projection is becoming nauseous. I am starting to notice she is even irratating the fairer sex in my household and that is saying something. They were just about celebrating in the street when Julia took office. LOL.
Just goes to show novelty wears off a bit like lipstick.
This was a poor government when Rudd was in charge and nothing much has changed.


----------



## joea

The current government equates part time to full time jobs.
Swan says there will be increase of 1.6 million by 2020.

In a report from a broker today...
Australia's unemployment rate stayed at 4.9% but the figures were weak, Full time employment fell 22,000 in May and part time rose 29,800 for a net gain of 7,800 compared with analyst forecasts of a 25,000 gain.

This is how the government give them the info. that they send out.
Am I missing something? If the part time average 3 hrs a day, how can it be a gain of 
7,800?
This is just another "mind game".
Cheers


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Maybe Ferguson is positioning himself for a spill?




Mr Ferguson at least lives in the real world, unlike many of his colleagues and the whacko Greens.

Did anyone see Greg Combet on 7.30 this evening proclaiming that the Productivity Commission's report is a clear indication that "Australia must act".  I haven't read the report but it seems to consider only some countries, France and Germany being those specifically mentioned in the interview where power prices went up 12% and 17% (I think) with pricing of carbon dioxide.  
How can they get away with this?

On the basis of this report, it sounds as though Tony Windsor has now received all the confirmation he needed that "the rest of the world is acting", so is likely to give his support to the legislation.

It's all a bit like "Alice in Wonderland".

Btw, I absolutely cannot see Mr Combet as a Prime Minister, not ever.  
Just for starters, Mr Combet, could you please get your teeth fixed.  I know it sounds unreasonable, but when you are on my screen I can't stop looking at what appears to be a single front tooth.
Sorry to be making such a personal comment but it's true.


----------



## trainspotter

This "Australia must act" because the rest of the world is doing it is becoming rather pedestrian. If Johnny put his hand in the fire and got burned would you? "South Korea is rolling out fibre optic cable so we must keep up with them" they shout "Or we will be left behind and become uncompetitive" they continue. "We must act on Global Warming before it is too late to save the planet" they all squawk "The facts are clear, we must save the environment by taxing CO2" they bellow. What a load of horse pucky.


----------



## medicowallet

trainspotter said:


> This "Australia must act" because the rest of the world is doing it is becoming rather pedestrian. If Johnny put his hand in the fire and got burned would you? "South Korea is rolling out fibre optic cable so we must keep up with them" they shout "Or we will be left behind and become uncompetitive" they continue. "We must act on Global Warming before it is too late to save the planet" they all squawk "The facts are clear, we must save the environment by taxing CO2" they bellow. What a load of horse pucky.




"egypt just overthrew its government"


----------



## noco

medicowallet said:


> "egypt just overthrew its government"




Perhaps we should try it here. Yeah, pigs might fly too.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Those comments are tame and at least factual compared to the following,



I was wondering if Richard Glover's '..forcibly tattoo the deniers..' (in the SMH) qualifies as 'hate media' in Bob Brown's definition? Only if it's in a Murdoch paper I guess.

The avuncular Bob Brown, your harmless and benevolent GP. He's too good for PM Gillard, and for most of the adoring press corps, especially over at Aunty. Just relax, the doctor knows what's best for you. He just needs to surgically remove $20 from your wallet each month to pay the increased electricity bill. 

It won't be so easy for the Greens once he retires.


----------



## moXJO

Is this government trying to destroy productivity in this country?
We have farmers about to get the shaft on live exports

Miners about to take a hit with carbon tax and a fairly hostile government

Fair work Australia letting the unions cause havoc through a few industries.

Independent contractors about to take a hit with the new reporting

Small business being left out in the cold.
And the list goes on.
Apparently money falls from the sky no matter whether the country works or not.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> The avuncular Bob Brown, your harmless and benevolent GP. He's too good for PM Gillard, and for most of the adoring press corps, especially over at Aunty. Just relax, the doctor knows what's best for you. He just needs to surgically remove $20 from your wallet each month to pay the increased electricity bill.



The following article sums up well the problems Labor and the independents will have with the idiological Greens in relation to the purity of any carbon tax.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...in-emissions-war/story-e6frgd0x-1226072641740



> The PC finds feed-in tariffs and renewable energy incentives - key measures being demanded by the Greens in return for a lower starting price - have driven up costs and produced very little greenhouse emissions reductions in some of the countries studied, including Australia.
> 
> In a devastating finding, the commission says Australia's renewable energy target policy as it was last year could have actually driven up emissions.



Government policy (both Conservative and Labor) at it finest.



> It also finds the electricity industry is already subject to an effective carbon price of $9 a tonne of carbon dioxide abated and if there had been an ETS instead of feed-in-tariffs and renewable energy targets we could have saved twice as many emissions for the same cost.



There's your starting price Mr Windsor. $0/t, increasing to $9/t as the current wonderful set of renewable energy target policies are wound back.

Bob Brown and his loopy Greens won't be happy with that though.



> Finally, the PC's findings about the poor economic and environmental performance of the so-called complementary measures such as feed-in tariffs and biofuel subsidies, create a potential flashpoint between the government and the Greens.
> 
> If Labor is to be true to its claims that the carbon tax represents economic reform in the same league as floating the dollar, it should stick close to the PC's recommendation that a carbon price in itself will be the lowest-cost way to price carbon and avoid pressure to cave in to demands for expensive add-ons.
> 
> The Greens face a dilemma too. With the umpire's findings in, they face a choice between ideology and rational economics.



Tony Abbott currently finds himself on the worng side of the economics of taxing carbon dioxide (if you believe in such a tax in the first place). The Greens however are also singing from the same hymn book as Tony in relation to direct action policies even if its for very different idiological reasons.

This will ultimately put Labor in an even bigger pickle over its carbon tax as it's the one in bed with the flea infested Green dog.

What will Tony Windsor do ?


----------



## sails

Seems like more unrest in the labor camp. 



> IN the strongest speech of his career, Labor senator John Faulkner warned last night that the party had "no future" unless it changed to embrace a "culture of inclusion" and repudiate powerbrokers who put their own interests before Labor's survival.




and



> "The Australian Labor Party was formed because working men and women in Australia needed a voice in parliament.
> 
> "The need for such a party still exists, and it will still exist even if Labor should fail the test of reform."




Full article from the Australian by Paul Kelly: Change or die, John Faulkner tells ALP


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Seems like more unrest in the labor camp.



Kevin Rudd's weighed in,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ulkner-tells-alp/story-fn59niix-1226072864142

and now, it's on.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/10/3240745.htm?section=justin


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd's weighed in,
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ulkner-tells-alp/story-fn59niix-1226072864142
> 
> and now, it's on.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/10/3240745.htm?section=justin




Paul Howes has had an epipthany



> Mr Howes agreed factional powerbrokers needed to be reined in, despite his role as one of the Right's most powerful figures.
> 
> "The time for party powerbrokers running the show, stifling internal debate or selecting candidates is over. It has to change.
> 
> "It's not in the interests of the party. It's not in the interests of Australia and I think that's what John was highlighting last night."
> 
> And he pledged to heed Senator Faulkner's call to limit the role of the factions in Labor, saying he will try to give up his "old habits".


----------



## moXJO

Why is Rudd chipping in? He listened to no one except his entourage of 20yo yes men and women. He was so out of touch and incompetent the he thankfully got the ar$e.
Rudd is like what Turnbull is to the libs, doesn’t know when to shut up and has too much self importance.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Why is Rudd chipping in?



To bang another nail in Julia Gillard's political coffin.


----------



## Logique

These internal ALP ructions will bring focus on the PM to show strength and leadership.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> To bang another nail in Julia Gillard's political coffin.




Perhaps he is trying to get her deposed before she becomes elligible for the PMs pensions and perks.  Is it one year as PM to qualify?


----------



## drsmith

Meanwhile, on Christmas Island,



> According to the AFP, the bullets are 12-gauge shotgun rounds with the lead shot wrapped in a bag of fabric so as not to inflict fatal injuries.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/16/3165187.htm


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> To bang another nail in Julia Gillard's political coffin.




Old 'silver tail'  Hawkie seems to think JU-LIAR will be gone in 3 months. Maybe he could be right!

If there is a change of leadership, I remember two of the independants stating they will not the minority government. So, maybe we will be back at the polls before Xmas.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Seems like more unrest in the labor camp.
> Full article from the Australian by Paul Kelly: Change or die, John Faulkner tells ALP



Senator Faulkner is one of the Labor Party's few real assets, competent and worthy of respect imo.

In an ideal world, both parties would benefit from doing a swap:  Malcolm Turnbull to Labor in exchange for Faulkner to the Libs.  



drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd's weighed in,
> and now, it's on.






moXJO said:


> Why is Rudd chipping in? He listened to no one except his entourage of 20yo yes men and women. He was so out of touch and incompetent the he thankfully got the ar$e.
> Rudd is like what Turnbull is to the libs, doesn’t know when to shut up and has too much self importance.



Totally agree.  This is an extract from one of the links provided above.  Comment is from Paul Howes.



> He said Mr Rudd's call for "the voice of the party's members [to be] heard loud and clear across the councils of the party" was more of a case of "Do what I say, not as I did".
> 
> "It certainly didn't happen under his leadership. The way the party was run from 2007 to 2010 strangled the life out of it. Doug Cameron described it as a party of zombies," Mr Howes said.
> 
> "You couldn't have any internal dissent, there couldn't be any disagreement with the leadership, pretending we were all one big happy family.
> 
> "In the last national conference there was not a single debate or a single ballot on any particular issue. That was because the then-prime minister, Kevin Rudd, ordered that there be no debate and no vote at the conference."


----------



## sails

noco said:


> Old 'silver tail'  Hawkie seems to think JU-LIAR will be gone in 3 months. Maybe he could be right!
> 
> If there is a change of leadership, I remember two of the independants stating they will not the minority government. So, maybe we will be back at the polls before Xmas.




I don't think they will have too much trouble dealing with another labor leader provided they get their perks (whatever that might be) and I don't think they would want to shorten their day in the sun.

Although, if Gillard is deposed, I do wonder if she will resign and take labor down with her. ..


----------



## drsmith

Not a happy man.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ulkner-tells-alp/story-fn59niix-1226073173860


----------



## drsmith

Labor's troubles appears to have derailed their public campaign in relation to the carbon tax.

I don't think there was a single mention of it on tonight's ABC news.


----------



## Julia

Noco, there appears to be a word missing in the following post from you.  Could you please clarify?



> If there is a change of leadership, I remember two of the independants stating they will not     ?      the minority government. So, maybe we will be back at the polls before Xmas.


----------



## drsmith

Support dear lady, support.

It's about the only pillar that's still supporting this crumbling government.

EDIT: That and those flea bitten Greens.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Noco, there appears to be a word missing in the following post from you.  Could you please clarify?




Sorry Julia, the missing word is "SUPPORT".


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Support dear lady, support.
> 
> It's about the only pillar that's still supporting this crumbling government.
> 
> EDIT: That and those flea bitten Greens.




The pillar of 3 independents must be starting to have meetings behind closed doors. To trying and work out a way to distance themselves from the trainwreck comming up. Their choice of allegiance will be tested shortly, the opportunity to smoothly seperate will present itself. Then like all good independents the evacuation of the sinking ship will commence.
It will be interesting to see who labor will put in to replace Julia.


----------



## Joe Blow

Logique said:


> I was wondering if Richard Glover's '..forcibly tattoo the deniers..' (in the SMH) qualifies as 'hate media' in Bob Brown's definition?




It was pointed out to me that this remark received a mention in The Australian: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...a-nazi-reference/story-fn72xczz-1226073253898


----------



## moXJO

Joe Blow said:


> It was pointed out to me that this remark received a mention in The Australian: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...a-nazi-reference/story-fn72xczz-1226073253898




And then dick glover backs away



> After 25 years writing this column, I've had my first experience of an internet hate campaign. So far, more than 2400 people, nearly all American, have emailed me . . . The Americans believed I was seriously proposing they be tattooed against their will. Given what they thought I was saying, I guess their upset was understandable. And boy were they upset. TTB, from Nevada, said he had "a couple of 9mm hollowpoints with your name on them". Jonathan, of Sag Harbor, NY, wanted to remove my testicles, while DB wanted to remove my penis. And M. Glasgow, in an email sunnily titled "can't wait to meet you", observed that: "I will kill you so dead that your rotting body will do nothing but energise the worms and maggots that will do their part in saving the planet from morons like you." . . . JH, for example, suggests that since I like nature so much, I should donate my "otherwise worthless body to the study of marine science by serving as shark bait". Actually, that did make me laugh.




And his article
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/a-climate-change-wave-of-hate-20110609-1ftix.html

The fact that he would write something so stupid in the beginning makes you wonder.


----------



## joea

I think the articles being produced by the media, are now heading in a direction that will not only split the workforce (union against employer), but also neighbour against neighbour, belief against belief. If Gillard stays the term, will we still have a democracy?
If we do, it wil lbe reshaped her way.

Julia Gillard is indicating she will run a DICTATORIAL Government. Her distaste of people who disagree with her is becoming more pronounced. I think this women is full of hate for any policy not implemented by(originally labor), and now hers.

We now have media supporting her, by bringing back memories of the past, which are certainly not pleasant. No doubt they may see the lighter side, but some of the public may not.

If we think we are having a dog fight now, then God help us for what the future brings.

Surely the common sense of the independants and some of the Greens must come into play.

If not, then  they will feel the hostility of the voters if we go to an election.

Finally, will the Governor General allow this county to be thrashed by socialist ideology?
joea


----------



## trainspotter

joea said:


> Finally, will the Governor General allow this county to be thrashed by socialist ideology? joea




Sure will joea for this very simple reason:- Bill Shorten is married to Chloe Bryce, the daughter of the Governor-General of Australia.

Bill SHorten:- One of the faceless men who got rid of Ming Pong KRuddy


----------



## Logique

Joe Blow said:


> It was pointed out to me that this remark received a mention in The Australian: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...a-nazi-reference/story-fn72xczz-1226073253898



Cheers Joe, some publicity for ASF, good on the SMH for publishing it.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Cheers Joe, some publicity for ASF, good on the SMH for publishing it.



Logique, I actually read it in "Strewth" in "The Weekend Australian" which is my favourite bit of the paper.  Quite an honour to make it onto there imo.  Good onya.


----------



## sptrawler

It just goes to show our ramblings are read by people who have the ear of the public.
Here we were thinking there is only a couple of dozen people reading our rants LOL.
Well done Logique, the rest of us will have to pick up our posts.
Come on members, more creativity, more depth and if possible a touch of accuracy. LOL 
What a great forum, minimal conflict, maximum subject matter covered and no nastiness.
It doesn't get better than that.


----------



## wayneL

Labor's true colors:

Black ops negative politicking.

http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...-track-opponents/story-e6frfkvr-1226073655019

As is so evident even on ASF, if you can't win with policy (and they can't) go ad hominem.


----------



## joea

wayneL said:


> Labor's true colors:
> 
> Black ops negative politicking.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...-track-opponents/story-e6frfkvr-1226073655019
> 
> As is so evident even on ASF, if you can't win with policy (and they can't) go ad hominem.




There is a statement in there...
"One can bury a lot of one's own troubles by digging in the dirt"

This is probably correct but, the economic issues from bad policy and decisions will remain.

joe


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Logique, I actually read it in "Strewth" in "The Weekend Australian" which is my favourite bit of the paper.  Quite an honour to make it onto there imo.  Good onya.



Thanks for that correction Julia, it was actually in the Weekend Australian, and not in the SMH that published the original article by R.Glover.


----------



## sails

wayneL said:


> Labor's true colors:
> 
> Black ops negative politicking.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...-track-opponents/story-e6frfkvr-1226073655019
> 
> As is so evident even on ASF, if you can't win with policy (and they can't) go ad hominem.




From that article:



> It is run by the Caucus Communications Team with an annual budget of over $600,000 and provides advice to more than 40 staffers known as Caucus Liaison Officers on ministers and MPs' staff, including in the PM's office.




Is this tax payer funded?  

Labor must be realising that they have no clue on how to run the country, so they resort to this?  I'm pretty sure that both sides do some checking up on their opponents, but this is taking it too far, imo.  Especially in the light of this:



> But the unit warns Labor operatives to hide their surveillance activities by saving intelligence on private email accounts and mobile USB storage devices to avoid it being detected on Government computers.
> 
> It warns staff against keeping the "shadow folder" on the "shared drive" because ministerial computers were subject to Freedom of Information laws and could be uncovered by the Opposition. "Notebooks disencouraged", the document says




This version of labor is more seemingly more devious and unethical than any other labor government I can remember.  I think even Whitlam will lose his dubious title...


----------



## noco

Kevin 11 is on the other side of the world and letting JU-LIAR paddle in her $*#t and can you blame him for keeping his distance when in fact,  in reallity,  he should be talking tp Indonesia, Malayasia and PNG.

After all, he is the foreign Minister, isn't he??????????? 


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ts/bolt_report_wheres_kevin_and_heres_kelvin/


----------



## Wysiwyg

> But the unit warns Labor operatives to hide their surveillance activities by saving intelligence on private email accounts and mobile USB storage devices to avoid it being detected on Government computers.
> 
> It warns staff against keeping the "shadow folder" on the "shared drive" because ministerial computers were subject to Freedom of Information laws and could be uncovered by the Opposition. "Notebooks disencouraged", the document says



From another Bob Santa-Maria, one could consider "privacy" and "confidential" being lonely words these days.


----------



## drsmith

My guesses for tomorrow's anticipated fortnightly Newspoll:

Labor: 30%
Coalition:46%
Greens: 15%
Others: 9%

2PP:

Labor: 45%
Coalition: 55%


----------



## drsmith

Salvation might be at hand  



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/.../comments/a_meesage_from_rudd_on_labors_woes/


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> My guesses for tomorrow's anticipated fortnightly Newspoll:
> 
> Labor: 30%
> Coalition:46%
> Greens: 15%
> Others: 9%
> 
> 2PP:
> 
> Labor: 45%
> Coalition: 55%




You were close Doc. Very close indeed. 

The latest poll is sure not looking very bright for JU-LIAR!

Hawkie may know more than the rest of us. 



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...shed_and_her_global_warming_message_with_her/


----------



## Julia

It's not too great for Tony Abbott either:
On the question of who would make the better PM:
Gillard   -   47%
Abbott   -   30%
Don't Know 23%


----------



## sptrawler

The people who fixed up John Howards teeth, need to start work on Tony's narrative skills.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> It's not too great for Tony Abbott either:
> On the question of who would make the better PM:
> Gillard   -   47%
> Abbott   -   30%
> Don't Know 23%




It makes it very difficult to relate the reasoning behind the above poll when the coalition has a commanding lead over Labor of 54% to 46% TPP.

How can this happen without strong leadership in the Coaltition?

 What is driving the difference?

It just does not make sense when you review the shocking history of Julia Gillard. How can she possibly be the preferred Prime Minister when every decision she makes turns out to be a debacle. She has wasted billions of tax payers dollars on schemes that have not been implimented in the National interest. 

Surely Tony Abbott could not possibly do worse!!!!!!!   

 60% of voters say NO to a carbon dioxide tax and are demanding she take it to an election seeking a mandate.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> It's not too great for Tony Abbott either:
> On the question of who would make the better PM:
> Gillard   -   47%
> Abbott   -   30%
> Don't Know 23%




Julia - not sure where you get the figures you quoted. These are from the poll below: 
Gillard   -   41%
Abbott   -   36%
Don't Know 24%

Obviously Abbott still has a bit to go, but he is closing the gap on Gillard:




http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/


----------



## sptrawler

The problem is Noco, Tony is right but comes over rough as guts, Hockey is a nice guy but comes over fat, so therefore lazy. Turnbull just wants to be loved by everyone so doesn't no where to sit down.


----------



## Julia

Oops, sorry.  Thanks, Sails.  I was looking at the 2010 figures.  Apologies, all.


----------



## drsmith

I would like to see a Tony Abbott with a broader longer term vision than what we have seen of him in opposition.


----------



## sptrawler

I read today they are backing down on the live trade ban, talk about policy on the run. Has anybody run the course ,statesmanship 101 or diplomacy for dummies for this government.
Please John come back all is forgiven.
Or maybe a life supply of gaffa tape for the labor party mouths.


----------



## noco

How much longer can this incompetent Gillard Labor Government be tolerated.

Gillard's character is in tatters. Her ratings are so low in the latest News poll.

Satisfaction 30%
Dissatisfaction 55%

Labor's primary vote  31%
Coalition's primary vote 46%

Abbott is closing the gap as preferred Prime Minister  38 to Gillard 41.

I am starting to believe Hawkie, "she will be gone in 3 months".

If the Labor Party do change leaders now, the independants stated last year they would not support Labor if there was a change of leadership.

Bring on an early election asap.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ord-low-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226075299938


----------



## Logique

Do as Labor says, not as Labor does. And screened on Aunty too!

*Lateline*:  https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa...mumCDA&usg=AFQjCNEF4Uwt9oNct6FRl1eE6E9KUWkLuQ
*Roxon caught seeking big tobacco money*
Australian Broadcasting Corporation,  Broadcast: 14/06/2011,  Reporter: Hayden Cooper

"...NICOLA ROXON, HEALTH MINISTER: It's time to kick the habit Mr Abbott.

HAYDEN COOPER: But the ABC has learned that the Health Minister once sought her own slice of tobacco industry support.

In 2005, in opposition, she wrote to three executives from Philip Morris, asking for them to support her re-election by attending a $1,500 a table fundraiser. The new MP, Peter Garrett, was the star attraction.

PETER DUTTON, OPPOSITION HEALTH SPOKESMAN: Well this just blows the Minister's credibility. People don't like politicians who are hypocrites, and Nicola Roxon has been an absolute hypocrite when it comes to this matter...

...HAYDEN COOPER: It comes a week after the Minister admitted to attending a tennis match as a guest of Philip Morris a decade ago..."


----------



## boofhead

Roxon admitted it on Q&A when she was on, a bit over a week ago from memory.

Dutton is probably concerned he's dropping off the radar. If we're interested in hypocritical politicians etc. then we look no further than Abbott.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> ...If the Labor Party do change leaders now, the independants stated last year they would not support Labor if there was a change of leadership.
> 
> Bring on an early election asap...




I would think an early election is the last thing the indies would want.  

Provided a new leader pork barrells with taxpayer funds as generously as Gillard, I can't see them rocking the boat simply due to leadership change.  They might make noises, but when push comes to shove, I would expect them to hang on to maximise their day in the sun.


----------



## noco

The glum look on Julia Gillard explains it all.

Not only has she turned voters against her, her own back benches are about to revolt as well. An implosion is about to take place.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ackbench-dissent/story-fn59niix-1226075251606


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I would think an early election is the last thing the indies would want.
> 
> Provided a new leader pork barrells with taxpayer funds as generously as Gillard, I can't see them rocking the boat simply due to leadership change.  They might make noises, but when push comes to shove, I would expect them to hang on to maximise their day in the sun.



Agree.  

Noco,  you keep on about a leadership change.  Who do you suggest they change to and why?

I don't think they'll do it anyway because (1) they'd be more of a joke than they are now, (2) there isn't anyone who would likely do any better than Ms Gillard, and (3)
their problems are as much about policy, more even, than they are just about the leader.

Btw who saw that bit of flim flam on "60 Minutes" last Sunday, where Julia giggled like a schoolgirl, and most nauseatingly, stood outside The Shed with a coy remark to the effect that she had been told to stay out.

I'd say she did herself much more harm than good with that little effort.


----------



## pilots

We in the west are mad at the fact that when the next election is called we in the wests vote won't count as it will be all over b4 the pools here close.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Btw who saw that bit of flim flam on "60 Minutes" last Sunday, where Julia giggled like a schoolgirl, and most nauseatingly, stood outside The Shed with a coy remark to the effect that she had been told to stay out.
> 
> I'd say she did herself much more harm than good with that little effort.




True, she should sack the spin doctors and concentrate on running the country, policy and trying to get some gravitas.
Can you imagine Maggie Thatcher or Helen Clark doing that???


----------



## Calliope

And this poll is in the SMH, a newspaper with a left-wing readership.


> Poll: With latest polls suggesting support for Julia Gillard is at an all-time low, can she recover her standing?
> Yes
> 18%
> No
> 82%
> Total votes: 6538.Poll closes in 19 hours.
> Disclaimer: These polls are not scientific and reflect the opinion only of visitors who have chosen to participate.






Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ion-appears-20110614-1g1qe.html#ixzz1PKBc0QPZ


----------



## noco

sails said:


> I would think an early election is the last thing the indies would want.
> 
> Provided a new leader pork barrells with taxpayer funds as generously as Gillard, I can't see them rocking the boat simply due to leadership change.  They might make noises, but when push comes to shove, I would expect them to hang on to maximise their day in the sun.




What if the Indies joined the National Party? Surely they would be safe from extinction!!!!!


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Agree.
> 
> Noco,  you keep on about a leadership change.  Who do you suggest they change to and why?
> 
> I don't think they'll do it anyway because (1) they'd be more of a joke than they are now, (2) there isn't anyone who would likely do any better than Ms Gillard, and (3)
> their problems are as much about policy, more even, than they are just about the leader.
> 
> Btw who saw that bit of flim flam on "60 Minutes" last Sunday, where Julia giggled like a schoolgirl, and most nauseatingly, stood outside The Shed with a coy remark to the effect that she had been told to stay out.
> 
> I'd say she did herself much more harm than good with that little effort.




Julia dear, the Labor Party behind the scenes are becoming desperate and will do anything to overcome the current situation. They about to implode.

IMHO the longer they tolerate Gillard, the longer  the Labor Party will be out of office.

As to Mr.Who would take over is anyone's guess.

Yes I did watch 60 minutes and thought her performance was pathetic. It did more harm than good.

I believe we will see some dramatic events in politics before Xmas.


----------



## sptrawler

The only Labor minister showing any smarts at the moment is Ferguson, the mining industry like him. The unions trust him and he seems to know when to shut up, which seems pretty unique in the Labor ranks.
However I tend to agree with our Julia, they won't dare get rid of Julia Gillard. More likely that the independents will be the catalyst for a spill.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...Btw who saw that bit of flim flam on "60 Minutes" last Sunday, where Julia giggled like a schoolgirl, and most nauseatingly, stood outside The Shed with a coy remark to the effect that she had been told to stay out.
> 
> I'd say she did herself much more harm than good with that little effort.




No, it wasn't watched at our place.  Watched the rest of 60 minutes but changed channels in protest.  The pre-views were enough to put one right off the giggling gertie show...

Funny thing though,  I noticed in the pre-views that Gillard was dressed in Liberal colours... 





Calliope said:


> And this poll is in the SMH, a newspaper with a left-wing readership.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ion-appears-20110614-1g1qe.html#ixzz1PKBc0QPZ




Thanks for the heads up Calliope - I just voted and there are now 7939 votes (about 1400 more since you posted)  and still at 18% think she can recover and 82% don't think she can.

I think she has to get a mandate from the people at the next election before imposing carbon tax and pick up the phone to Nauru.  That might stop the polls falling so quickly, however, it may be too little too late for Ms Gillard.


----------



## sptrawler

I see on the news tonight, the live cattle being held due to Julia's policy on the run( as per normal) is blowing up in her face.
Interesting Collin Barnett is getting involved, he is certainly becoming the "Lone Ranger" for the Liberals.
This term of Labor is going to go down as the worse performing on record. Four years, huge spending, nothing to show for it.

Getting back to Barnett, I wonder if the Libs will parachute him into Federal politics, at least he has the smarts.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> The only Labor minister showing any smarts at the moment is Ferguson, the mining industry like him. The unions trust him and he seems to know when to shut up, which seems pretty unique in the Labor ranks.
> However I tend to agree with our Julia, they won't dare get rid of Julia Gillard. More likely that the independents will be the catalyst for a spill.




I can't see the indies creating a catalyst for a spill as they are enjoying themselves too much with their new found fame. And they don't seem to care much for the wishes of the majority of their electorates, so can't seem them being concerned at going against the opinion polls with Gillard's carbon tax nonsense.

Gillard is a "what ever it takes" power girl.  I would think there is a reasonable possibility that she would resign if anyone dared to take her out.  That way, she possibly has the proverbial gun to labor's head.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> I can't see the indies creating a catalyst for a spill as they are enjoying themselves too much with their new found fame. And they don't seem to care much for the wishes of the majority of their electorates, so can't seem them being concerned at going against the opinion polls with Gillard's carbon tax nonsense.
> 
> Gillard is a "what ever it takes" power girl.  I would think there is a reasonable possibility that she would resign if anyone dared to take her out.  That way, she possibly has the proverbial gun to labor's head.




Eventually their new found fame fades and they are just thrown out with the dirty bath water. They are not stupid (welllll maybe) so they will realise as things go from bad to worse that at some point it is best to jump in the lifeboat. Rather than go down with the ship.
If they don't there is no way they won't be thrown out and then you are of no use to your electorate. Actually I am suprised they have not yet distanced themselves, lets not forget they had protracted talks with Abbott and Gillard before deciding their allegiance.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Eventually their new found fame fades and they are just thrown out with the dirty bath water. They are not stupid (welllll maybe) so they will realise as things go from bad to worse that at some point it is best to jump in the lifeboat. Rather than go down with the ship.
> If they don't there is no way they won't be thrown out and then you are of no use to your electorate. Actually I am suprised they have not yet distanced themselves, lets not forget they had protracted talks with Abbott and Gillard before deciding their allegiance.




I would like to know what Hawkie really knows about Gillard gone in 3 months.

Where is GG?  He is generally well informed on these issues with his contacts at the Ross Island Pub.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> What if the Indies joined the National Party? Surely they would be safe from extinction!!!!!



That's really a pretty ridiculous suggestion, noco.  They placed their allegiances with Labor purely because they had had such vicious fallings out with the Nationals in the past and were intent on getting revenge.  They have absolutely no reason to change this in terms of their personal interests.  They clearly don't care an iota about their electorates.
And on that latter score, Tony Windsor's electorate at least has been the recipient of quite magnificent largesse from the government in order to keep Mr Windsor happy.
Probably Mr Oakeshott's electorate has benefited similarly.





sails said:


> Thanks for the heads up Calliope - I just voted and there are now 7939 votes (about 1400 more since you posted)  and still at 18% think she can recover and 82% don't think she can.



Astonishing result from Fairfax devotees!



> I think she has to get a mandate from the people at the next election before imposing carbon tax and pick up the phone to Nauru.  That might stop the polls falling so quickly, however, it may be too little too late for Ms Gillard.



Sails, what remote reason would she have to go to an election before legislating the carbon tax?  She would obviously lose massively.  It makes no sense for her to expose herself to this, when she can hope that the electorate may have calmed down about the carbon tax when they know they'll be vaguely compensated, and she may still have some faint chance of regathering support before the election is due.



sptrawler said:


> Getting back to Barnett, I wonder if the Libs will parachute him into Federal politics, at least he has the smarts.



He seems very capable, and very determined.  Would hugely benefit Federal Libs.
Better leadership material than what's presently on offer imo.


----------



## sptrawler

Barnett is very much the statesman, he learnt a lot from speaking from the heart and being honest, sometimes things are best not said.
He has started taking his own counsel as well as defering to others. Seems to be growing day by day to me.
He appears to be one step up the ladder above the rest. In computer terms he seems to be able to multi task. Time will tell.


----------



## drsmith

Are the rats getting ready to jump the sinking ship ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245609.htm


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> Are the rats getting ready to jump the sinking ship ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245609.htm




Thanks for posting the info, drsmith...  Last few sentences from that article:



> Opposition environment spokesman Greg Hunt says the campaign would be a misuse of taxpayer funds.
> 
> "This announcement adds insult to injury for Australian taxpayers," he said.
> 
> "Australian mums and dads are being asked to pay for the Government to advertise why mums and dads should pay higher electricity prices.




So true.  Why does the taxpayer have to pay for these ads when the polls are showing the majority don't want this new tax?  And even IF if was actually going to do anything to help with co2 reduction (and you believe that should happen), I don't think labor are capable of managing such a major tax.  Their track record at managing anything is dismal, at best.

Let's hope the two independents regain a little credibility by doing the right thing on this issue.


----------



## Calliope

The Coalition is crazy to support Greens' motions in both houses to condemn the Malaysian Solution. Much better to let it proceed and disintegrate under its own stupidity. This motion would let Labor get out of a hole and give the Greens bragging rights.



> Federal Parliament has passed a motion condemning the Malaysian asylum swap deal, a move which opens the way for Greens legislation that could scrap the proposal.
> 
> The Greens motion, which had already passed through the Senate, is the first time a motion has passed through both houses condemning a Government policy and asking it to be withdrawn.
> 
> It passed through the House of Representatives 70-68 with the support of the Opposition, Greens MP Adam Bandt, who moved the motion, and independents Andrew Wilkie and Bob Katter.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245289.htm?section=justin


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> The Coalition is crazy to support Greens' motions in both houses to condemn the Malaysian Solution. Much better to let it proceed and disintegrate under its own stupidity. This motion would let Labor get out of a hole and give the Greens bragging rights.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245289.htm?section=justin




The government doesn't need house support to implement the Malaysian solution. They intend to go ahead anyway.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Are the rats getting ready to jump the sinking ship ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245609.htm




Thanks for that support Doc. My rediculous statement as quoted by Julia, may not be so rediculous after all.

The Indies have got what they wanted from Labor, so what have they got to loose now?

They may even reconsider the Nationals are the lesser of two evils especially in the advent of a leadership change in the Labor Party. They stated last year they would not support Labor if there was another leadership change.

We will just have to wait and see I guess, but come what may there will be, IMHO, an implosion in the Labor ranks before Xmas. The fuse is getting shorter by the day.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> Getting back to Barnett, I wonder if the Libs will parachute him into Federal politics, at least he has the smarts.




I hear they want a canal built over there.............


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> I hear they want a canal built over there.............



Forget the canal. Now it's the Orrong Expressway.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/airport-expressway-could-slash-travel-time-20110616-1g4wi.html



> "I've asked Main Roads to look at what they can do to solve a challenge. That challenge is how do you get from the Graham Farmer Freeway down Orrong Road and up Leach Highway into the airport precinct without any traffic lights," he told 6PR radio.
> 
> He suggested the road could be built either above, under, or alongside existing roads.




He might choke on the cost though, if the following viaduct project in Adelaide is anything to go by,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Road_Superway

The above, currently under construction, has a cost over $800m.

I would perspnally like to see Orrong Road upgraded as I use it regularly.

Sorry,
Waht was this thread about ?


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> I hear they want a canal built over there.............




He would make a better fist of it than Carmen Lawrence did. LOL


----------



## drsmith

Barry Cassidy is clutching at straws here,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245672.htm



> The lesson from Ryan and Aston is that political fortunes can change very quickly; that often holding your nerve is the best option.
> 
> The scenario can be repeated if the government breaks a habit and manages well the announcements on the structure of the carbon tax and the related compensation. Then, from July next year when the tax starts, the government will need to further unwind the impact of Tony Abbott's effective campaign against it.
> 
> It all seems such a long shot now in the face of deteriorating polls. And Julia Gillard has nothing like the authority and credibility that John Howard had even in his most troubled times.



The big if above goes against the history of this government and, unlike Labor, John Howard took his GST to an election before introducing it.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> The Coalition is crazy to support Greens' motions in both houses to condemn the Malaysian Solution. Much better to let it proceed and disintegrate under its own stupidity. This motion would let Labor get out of a hole and give the Greens bragging rights.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245289.htm?section=justin



Agree with you, Calliope.  For the Libs to side with the Greens is such an obvious stunt to damage the government which will be to no effect anyway, given the motion in both Houses is non-binding.  The government can simply ignore it which is what they propose to do.

However, we are yet to see a final agreement with Malaysia, and in the meantime the concern about human rights abuses in Malaysia may well see the government's stakes depressed even further.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Thanks for posting the info, drsmith...  Last few sentences from that article:
> 
> So true.  Why does the taxpayer have to pay for these ads when the polls are showing the majority don't want this new tax?



Sails, it's my understanding that the amount they are planning to spend on 'educating the public' about the carbon tax is significantly less than the Howard government spent on promoting Work Choices.
They all do it.  I'd have been surprised if Labor didn't devise some sort of public persuasion plan.



> And even IF if was actually going to do anything to help with co2 reduction (and you believe that should happen), I don't think labor are capable of managing such a major tax.  Their track record at managing anything is dismal, at best.



True enough, plus the additional layers of bureaucracy that will be involved in administering it.



> Let's hope the two independents regain a little credibility by doing the right thing on this issue.



Well, I suppose we may hope, and certainly their irritation today is a positive sign.
However, I still don't believe there's any chance they will join the Nationals as you're so keen to suggest, noco.  I'll happily apologise to you if they do, because I can think of no more desirable outcome.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Barry Cassidy is clutching at straws here,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/16/3245672.htm
> 
> 
> The big if above goes against the history of this government and, unlike Labor, John Howard took his GST to an election before introducing it.




Doc, it is a well known fact that Cassidy is very biased towards the Labor Party as much as the ABC is.

It is wishful thinking on his part that Labor and Gillard will rise from the ashes.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Agree with you, Calliope.  For the Libs to side with the Greens is such an obvious stunt to damage the government which will be to no effect anyway, given the motion in both Houses is non-binding.  The government can simply ignore it which is what they propose to do.
> 
> However, we are yet to see a final agreement with Malaysia, and in the meantime the concern about human rights abuses in Malaysia may well see the government's stakes depressed even further.




Well Julia, is it not the name of the game for the opposition to damage the government or would you prefer them to sit there like stunned mullets?

It is absurd to say the Coalition sided with the Greens for the Coalition had been opposing the Malaysian issue since its concept, long before the Greens came on the scene and rightly so.

Whilst the Government can simply ignore the motion from both houses, it will have a psychological effect on voters. It proves just how arogant Gillard and Labor are. They have stopped listening a long time ago.


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> ..It is absurd to say the Coalition sided with the Greens for the Coalition had been opposing the Malaysian issue since its concept, long before the Greens came on the scene and rightly so..



Yes I think it was less about supporting the Greens and more about adopting a consistent line. The 'Malaysian Solution' is bizarre, unnecessary with Nauru ready and waiting, a bad deal for us, inhumane for the people sent there (not a signatory), and damaging to foreign relations with that country and our reputation in Asia.


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> Yes I think it was less about supporting the Greens and more about adopting a consistent line. The 'Malaysian Solution' is bizarre, unnecessary with Nauru ready and waiting, a bad deal for us, inhumane for the people sent there (not a signatory), and damaging to foreign relations with that country and our reputation in Asia.




My sentiments exactly, Logique. I am sure Nauru could do with the money and resulting employment as much if not  more than Malaysia.
Also the coalition siding with the greens can't help the green labor relations. Nothing like adding a bit of accelerant to a smoldering fire.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> Yes I think it was less about supporting the Greens and more about adopting a consistent line. The 'Malaysian Solution' is bizarre, unnecessary with Nauru ready and waiting, a bad deal for us, inhumane for the people sent there (not a signatory), and damaging to foreign relations with that country and our reputation in Asia.




I agree with your summary of the Malaysian solution, Logique but at least it removes the asylum seekers. The trouble with Nauru is that we will essentially be responsible for them and will end up taking most of them anyway after years of incarceration.
The government is really in a mess over this issue.


----------



## Calliope

They are both serial liars, but their body language gives them away.









> FOREIGN Minister Kevin Rudd has rejected media reports that he and Prime Minister Julia Gillard indulged in screaming matches yesterday.
> 
> "That's just fabrication," he told ABC Television today.
> 
> Mr Rudd said the pair talked often about various policy challenges and talks yesterday centred on Indonesia and the decision to suspend live cattle exports.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ith-pm-says-rudd/story-e6freooo-1226076838786


----------



## Knobby22

Yea, yea. You should stop reading those rags Calliope. A story based on a picture??


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler;640194
Also the coalition siding with the greens can't help the green labor relations. Nothing like adding a bit of accelerant to a smoldering fire.:D[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> The Greens are a far bigger danger to the Coalition than Labor. To support any motion of the Greens is abhorrent. Better to abstain.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> The Greens are a far bigger danger to the Coalition than Labor. To support any motion of the Greens is abhorrent. Better to abstain.




It's hard to abstain from voting on an issue you have been the major antagonist against . It would give Labor a free kick, to say the Coalition are just anti everything and when they are asked to put up they just shut up.


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, yea. You should stop reading those rags Calliope. A story based on a picture??




Yea, Yea. This is the spin your favorite rag puts on it;



> Mr Rudd told reporters he was not plotting a return to the leadership but was just trying to stop Mr Abbott trying to become prime minister. He said Mr Abbott running the nation would ''not be in the community's interest'.
> ''My aspiration is to become one day, maybe, one of Australia's better - probably not the best - foreign minister. I enjoy the job very much. I'm able to achieve some things in it and that's where my heart and soul lies in terms of my own future.''




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/plot...ign-to-rudd-20110616-1g63q.html#ixzz1PUPbrSYA


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> The Greens are a far bigger danger to the Coalition than Labor. To support any motion of the Greens is abhorrent. Better to abstain.



 Not sure about abstaining.  The point I was trying to make was to do with the irony of the motion being carried by the unanimity of the Greens and the Coalition *when they object to the Malaysia Solution for completely different reasons,*i.e. The Greens because they want to see all asylum seekers immediately admitted to live in the Australian community, and the Coalition because they (sensibly) want to use Nauru.

As Chris Bowen imo correctly observed, they are diametrically opposed on this issue.

On a more amusing note, did anyone hear the Prime Minister misuse the language once again?  I heard it on "PM" last night and laughed.  We're all familiar with the expression "high dudgeon" meaning intense indignation.  Ms Gillard said "high dungeon"!
Somewhat of an oxymoron, one might think.

Here's the context:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/dungeon-indeed/story-e6frgdk6-1226076653298


----------



## joea

I reckon that the "boiler room in Canberra" is getting to such a high pressure, that the saftey valve is ready to blow. Generally the safety should blow off before the whole boiler blows up.
joea


----------



## drsmith

Kevin Rudd's sitting on the safety valve and hoping the roof blows off.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> On a more amusing note, did anyone hear the Prime Minister misuse the language once again?  I heard it on "PM" last night and laughed.  We're all familiar with the expression "high dudgeon" meaning intense indignation.  Ms Gillard said "high dungeon"!
> Somewhat of an oxymoron, one might think.




And this is the woman who sets herself up as  a great supporter of education. How can a woman with two degrees be so uneducated.  This from her maiden speech may explain:



> My passion for education is not only the product of my own personal experience; it is the result of having campaigned on these very issues as a university student...
> 
> I will not pretend that the antics of a bunch of university students had much relevance to real working people, but we were always conscious that we were part of a wider movement to create a fairer society and give others the opportunities we were fortunate enough to have. We always understood the value of working collectively, of unionism. While experience in the student movement inspired those on the other side of the House to dedicate themselves to the destruction of unionism, it inspired us to work with and for unions. It inspired me to spend eight years as an industrial lawyer defending trade unions and working people. In this place, I will remain fiercely committed to working with unions and to working for fair industrial laws.


----------



## drsmith

Kevin Rudd not happy about questioning on a range of foreign policy issues.

Listen from about 9:15 to about 9:40.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/06/17/3246154.htm

No sympathy from the interviewer judging by the expression on her face.


----------



## springhill

Sophie Mirabella, Member for Indi, asks several excellent question of Peter Garrett.

Mrs MIRABELLA: Minister, it was confirmed at estimates that the industry department is doing a range of work on carbon tax and its impact on industry. In that context can you confirm the carbon tax will only be applied to fewer than 1,000 emitters? Can you guarantee it will not be applied to other businesses or other industries? On what basis is the government providing 52 per cent compensation to households and 46 per cent to industry under the carbon tax? Given that the CPRS as it started was supposed to provide only around 41 per cent to households, how much of a decline in compensation from that scheme would a level of 46 per cent represent for Australian industry? Isn't this just purely a front for an exercise in wealth redistribution? What detail can you provide industry about the proportion by which the tax will rise and what the level of compensation change will be beyond year 1? Has the government set a ceiling price beyond which the carbon tax will not escalate? If so, what is that?

Could you also please inform the House if either of these two statements is wrong. The first one is that every dollar that is raised by the payment of a carbon price by the companies that are emitting large amounts of pollution will be used towards supporting households. The second comment is that the carbon plan which we are now developing will involve additional support for manufacturing. Has the government requested briefings from the Department of Innovation, Industry, Science and Research or any other government agency about the steel industry's legal action against the EU in that jurisdiction over the implementation of its ETS? If so, which agencies and on what dates? Has any consideration being given to the implications for Australia? If so, what are these implications?

What consultation and work has the Department of Innovation, Industry, Science and Research and the government more generally done on border tariff arrangements for the carbon tax? Are there any considerations for the introduction of border tariffs or any like actions with regard to the introduction of a carbon tax?

*Of which he FAILS to answer. Is there any guarantee this won't expand?*

Mr GARRETT: I thank the member for her questions. On the question of a carbon tax generally, the government has been very clear about the process which is now underway to determine the most appropriate way of pricing carbon in the Australian economy. The member will be aware that there is a climate change committee that is involved in consultation and discussion with the government and that the government will bring forward that proposal once the processes for consultation have been concluded. The member will also be aware that there has been significant consultation with industry, and that has been the hallmark of the government's approach to delivering a price on carbon. Those consultations are varied and diverse but I can assure the member that consultation with industry has always been and will remain one of the important principles that this government follows in relation to a reform of this kind. I will refer now to a couple of the specific questions that the member put to me, which I will take on notice. The questions relate to whether or not there has been any research, consultation or interaction on the question of border tariffs. I might have slightly paraphrased the question that was put to me by the member, but it is on the record. We will take that particular question on notice. Again, I think it is appropriate to take on notice the question of whether or not there have been any briefings or advices sought in relation to legal action being taken in respect of the steel industry and issues around them more generally.

On the question of whether or not the government has come to a view about a ceiling price for the carbon tax, again, I refer the member to both my earlier comments in answer to her question and also to the comments made by the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, by the Prime Minister, by the Treasurer and by others on numerous occasions, including in question time, pointing out the processes that are underway and the principles that underpin the government's approach on climate change.

I will make one observation to conclude this answer, and it is simply this: many businesses agree that a price on carbon is the most efficient way to begin to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Most climate scientists are unanimous in agreeing that reducing greenhouse gas emissions is necessary in order to stabilise the climate so that we do not suffer the expensive impacts of dangerous climate change. The long-term sustainable prosperity of our nation, including in respect of our industrial base, our innovation, our research, our development of new technologies and industries and the like, is very much linked to our capacity to begin to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and the most cost-effective way for us to do that is to have a price on carbon. Economists are of a single view about that. Members of the party of the member opposite are of a single view about that. And, in order to have a price on carbon introduced into the Australian economy we need to agree on the way in which that particular scheme will be brought forward.

I am very confident that the process of consultation and negotiation that is underway, not only with industry but with all of the other players in this substantial reform, is being conducted in a way that enables the government to have a clear view about the most effective way for us to introduce this important reform. For those of us who are genuinely interested in innovation and genuinely interested in building a low-carbon economy, the introduction of a carbon price is a much needed element.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd not happy about questioning on a range of foreign policy issues.
> 
> Listen from about 9:15 to about 9:40.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/06/17/3246154.htm
> 
> No sympathy from the interviewer judging by the expression on her face.




Rudd, after sleeping rough for a night, said he had a "passion for homelessness."  Perhaps another apology will fix that. O)r maybe it's just another "moral challenge" and can be easily forgotten.


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> Rudd, after sleeping rough for a night, said he had a "passion for homelessness."  Perhaps another apology will fix that. O)r maybe it's just another "moral challenge" and can be easily forgotten.





This thing about people sleeping out to draw attention really gets up my goat. Its the biggest load of absolute manure ever as pointed out by Hewson the other night.

The political / public focus on a few 1000 asulym seekers and money spent on que jumpers while every night 100,000 plus Australians dont have a roof over there heads.

Many are women with kids fleeing domestic violence situations that cannot find accommodation. The best Abbott, Rudd and co is to sleep out.


----------



## Julia

Agree absolutely.  Such tokenistic gestures are actually an insult to the homeless, imo.
Patronising in the extreme.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Agree absolutely.  Such tokenistic gestures are actually an insult to the homeless, imo.
> Patronising in the extreme.




I hadn't heard about it and so googled for news.  It seems it is an annual charity event organised by St Vincent de Paul and there were many others who spent the night on the streets for this charity event.  Both Abbott and Rudd raised over $7,000 each.

Maybe it's not so bad for our leaders to have experienced what many homeless people experience.  Perhaps it will help them formulate better policies where the homeless can be helped.

From Yahoo.com: Australia CEOs sleep rough for charity


----------



## sptrawler

It may make them realise the asylum seekers don't have too much to complain about with regard accomodation standards.


----------



## drsmith

I think the engine room just flooded.



> The Herald/Nielsen poll, taken this week and published today, shows Labor's primary vote at 27 per cent, just over a quarter of voters and the lowest level ever for a major party in the poll's history of almost four decades.
> 
> The Coalition's primary vote is a massive 49 per cent, higher than Labor's two-party-preferred 41 per cent. The Coalition's two-party preferred vote is 59 per cent. These are the same levels as seen at the NSW election in March and would result in a similar destruction of Labor should an election be held now.



http://www.smh.com.au/national/year-of-living-dangerously-20110617-1g7xq.html


----------



## Logique

So they finally dip below 30% primary. 

Does this qualify as having '..lost their way..'. Even a trail of breadcrumbs couldn't get them out of this morass - of their own making. 

Also, bad news for Turnbull-ites (on both sides), Tony Abbott is now equal with Julia Gillard as preferred prime minister on 46 per cent, the first time Abbott has achieved this.

But most ALP voters now want Kevin Rudd back.


----------



## joea

Previously I have posted about the unemployment figure of 4.9% is a farce, and that deployment had covered up the true figures. (equating part time with full time).

The front page of the Financial Review says.

"An army of jobless. If unemployment is 4.9%, why is it that 2.7 million people can't find work.?"
On page 44, "An invisible army".

Now a number of people will still believe Swan, but I won't, and now I understand why he goes red every time he discusses the low unemployment rate. 
I understand that the labor market is changing. and people may have to reskill.

The two sizeable groups are the over 50, white collar managerial or executive job seeker
and the return to work primary care givers - usually moms.

Now I am going to enjoy watching Gillard and Swan, handle this if it get going.
And if it does, what will it do to the pols?
Cheers


----------



## springhill

drsmith said:


> I think the engine room just flooded.
> 
> The Herald/Nielsen poll, taken this week and published today, shows Labor's primary vote at 27 per cent, just over a quarter of voters and the lowest level ever for a major party in the poll's history of almost four decades.
> 
> The Coalition's primary vote is a massive 49 per cent, higher than Labor's two-party-preferred 41 per cent. The Coalition's two-party preferred vote is 59 per cent. These are the same levels as seen at the NSW election in March and would result in a similar destruction of Labor should an election be held now.
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/year-of-living-dangerously-20110617-1g7xq.html




Imagine what the polls would look like if the Libs had a leader with more charisma, Abbott is doing a fine job grinding Gillard into the dirt in an unfashionable kind of way, but someone who could attract a higher % of 'preferred PM votes' would have killed her off by now. Only a matter of time folks.

Hang on.... I hear screaming.... didn't know Kev and Julia had moved in next door.....


----------



## Calliope

Of two evils which is the lesser?


> *Rudd leads Gillard as preferred Labor leader*
> 
> As Julia Gillard approaches her first anniversary as Prime Minister, a new poll shows 60 per cent of Australians prefer former prime minister Kevin Rudd as Labor leader over 31 per cent for Ms Gillard.
> 
> The Nielsen poll, published in today's Fairfax newspapers, also shows Labor's primary vote down four points to 27 per cent - the lowest for a major party in Nielsen's 39-year history.
> 
> The primary vote for the Coalition is up three points to 49 per cent, and the Greens' primary vote is up two points to 12 per cent.
> 
> The Coalition now leads Labor on a two-party preferred basis 59 to 41 per cent, worse than polling when Mr Rudd was overthrown as Labor leader almost a year ago.
> 
> In the same poll, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott tied with Ms Gillard as preferred prime minister for the first time with both on 46 per cent.




Read More. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/18/3247227.htm


----------



## Logique

See something wrong with this pie chart? From the balanced house of Fairfax (SMH), via Tim Blair's blog at: http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/

"..At the Sydney Morning Herald, 41 per cent is greater than 59 per cent.."


----------



## trainspotter

Graham Richardson thinks Juliar Gizzard will go down with the sinking ship.



> “She will not be dumped, she will not resign of her own accord, she will be there until the next election.’’




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...raham-richardson/story-e6freooo-1226076105909


----------



## noco

trainspotter said:


> Graham Richardson thinks Juliar Gizzard will go down with the sinking ship.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...raham-richardson/story-e6freooo-1226076105909




Can we open the sea cocks to make it happen faster?


----------



## trainspotter

noco said:


> Can we open the sea cocks to make it happen faster?




They are doing a pretty good job by themselves.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> See something wrong with this pie chart? From the balanced house of Fairfax (SMH), via Tim Blair's blog at: http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/
> 
> "..At the Sydney Morning Herald, 41 per cent is greater than 59 per cent.."



I hope they're not so kind at Fairfax if they have to change the red ink for green.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> So they finally dip below 30% primary.
> 
> Does this qualify as having '..lost their way..'. Even a trail of breadcrumbs couldn't get them out of this morass - of their own making.
> 
> Also, bad news for Turnbull-ites (on both sides), Tony Abbott is now equal with Julia Gillard as preferred prime minister on 46 per cent, the first time Abbott has achieved this.
> 
> But most ALP voters now want Kevin Rudd back.



Malcolm Turnbull has at least confirmed he won't cross the floor in relation to Brown's/Gillard's carbon dioxide tax, should it get that far.

As for old Kev, it will be interesting to see how much that knife wound still hurts.


----------



## drsmith

Kevin Rudd's "learning expereince",



> AFTER first feeling bruised and numb over losing the prime ministership, Kevin Rudd has turned it into a ''learning experience'', acknowledging his critics were right about a number of failings.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/a-year-on-rudd-would-do-things-differently-20110617-1g876.html

while Julia Gillard publically attacks Kevin Rudd, according to the folowing, 

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/6/18/apworld/20110618153545&sec=apworld



> Gillard, in an interview published in News Corp. newspapers on Saturday, said her center-left Labor Party "lost a sense of purpose and plan for the future" under Rudd.






> Nick Economou, a Monash University political scientist, said Gillard's comments were evidence that her colleagues are considering replacing her.




Interesting that this would be in a Malaysian rag.


----------



## sptrawler

Apparently Julia and some of the boys are giving a talk in Kevin Rudds electorate. Guess what, Kev wasn't invited to speak.
Sounds like there is internal trouble brewing.
Over here in the West just about every radio station is taking the mickey out of Labor. 
I have never seen a government cop this much bad press.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Apparently Julia and some of the boys are giving a talk in Kevin Rudds electorate. Guess what, Kev wasn't invited to speak.
> Sounds like there is internal trouble brewing.
> Over here in the West just about every radio station is taking the mickey out of Labor.
> I have never seen a government cop this much bad press.




And yet I saw her on TV tonight where she stated she was "very secure".  When will she learn that it is that sort of apparent arrogance that turns voters right off?  The people are sending a message via the polls and she doesn't give a hoot?


----------



## drsmith

She is very secure.

What she fails to realise is that it's in the crap she's buried herself in, which has now gone solid.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Apparently Julia and some of the boys are giving a talk in Kevin Rudds electorate. Guess what, Kev wasn't invited to speak.
> Sounds like there is internal trouble brewing.
> Over here in the West just about every radio station is taking the mickey out of Labor.
> I have never seen a government cop this much bad press.



The're sinking the boot in over at The Australian,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-ascension-nears/story-fn59niix-1226077594651

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-ascension-nears/story-fn59niix-1226077594651

Rupert's obviously happy to fork out the overtime to his journalists.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Apparently Julia and some of the boys are giving a talk in Kevin Rudds electorate. Guess what, Kev wasn't invited to speak.



Is this the Labor Party annual conference?   Apparently it's tradition in all these events that past Prime Ministers are invited to speak.  So a complete smack in the face for our Kev not to be invited to impart his words of wisdom.



> Sounds like there is internal trouble brewing.
> Over here in the West just about every radio station is taking the mickey out of Labor.
> I have never seen a government cop this much bad press.



Me neither.  Even the pro-Labor ABC led all its news bulletins today with an extensive coverage of the 27% result.




sails said:


> And yet I saw her on TV tonight where she stated she was "very secure".  When will she learn that it is that sort of apparent arrogance that turns voters right off?  The people are sending a message via the polls and she doesn't give a hoot?



Sails, if you think back to the periods preceding any leader being dumped, didn't they all protest that they felt very secure?
I suppose she can say nothing else.  I can't quite imagine her saying to journalists:
"well, I know I've stuffed up hugely, that my leadership style is every bit as bad as our Kev's, and that the policy on the run plan just somehow doesn't seem to have worked, so yes, I reckon my job is on the line"!


----------



## Julia

Anyone who has listened to "Counterpoint" on Radio National will be familiar with satirist Patrick Cooke.

Here is his summary for this month of our government's efforts in terms of its relationships with our neighbours.  As always, very funny.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/stories/2011/3241252.htm


----------



## noco

Wilkie will be the linch pin if Gillard is axed. He will not support Labor if they decide to change leaders and I reckon Windsor and Oahshott will follow. End of story.

So the back room boys will have to think hard if they decide on a spill.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ilkie-warns-foes/story-fn59niix-1226077343684


----------



## Wysiwyg

I listened to the Prime Minister's speech today at the Labor Party Conference which she delivered with confidence even though the opinion polls suggest she and her government aren't popular presently. One part of her speech I did find silly was taking pot shots at the opposition. The Labor Party should focus on what they do best. Play the ball not the man.

I like Julia. I can tell she is trying her best for Australia.


----------



## noco

Wysiwyg said:


> I listened to the Prime Minister's speech today at the Labor Party Conference which she delivered with confidence even though the opinion polls suggest she and her government aren't popular presently. One part of her speech I did find silly was taking pot shots at the opposition. The Labor Party should focus on what they do best. Play the ball not the man.
> 
> I like Julia. I can tell she is trying her best for Australia.




Yes, trying her best to wreck Australia  more like it.

She says she has a plan. That's what Kevvie said in 2007 and again by Gillard in 2010 and now again in 2011.

Her ultimate plan is send Australia down the gurgler and give her reason to nationalize the banks. mines, farms and manufacturing. That has always been the solialist left ideology which is one step behind communism.


----------



## Ferret

noco said:


> Her ultimate plan is send Australia down the gurgler and give her reason to nationalize the banks. mines, farms and manufacturing. That has always been the solialist left ideology which is one step behind communism.




Get real.  Do you seriously believe an Australian prime minister would be trying to send our country down the gurgler?

She is doing a lousy job and just keeps making bad decisions, but I don't accept that she is deliberately out to destroy.  

She will be savaged next election.  I just wish there was a promising leader to take her place.


----------



## joea

These are the political hotspots for the Labor government.
Mining Tax, Asylum seekers, Carbon scheme, Gambling and now the cattle trade.
On the 24th June last year Julia said she would get Labor back on the rails.
She said Rudd had "lost his way" and the commitment she made was to fix, the mining tax, climate change policy and border protection.

Currently these 3 issues remain unresolved, while she has also added 2 more issues above.

So 24 months on, the people may see her as non- effective as a Prime Minister.
No doubt she is one of the better politicans in Labor, but has an extremely bad habit of "nit picking " at Abbott. This to me is a major weakness in her resolve.
If she had resolved even one of the above, she may have got some respect.

Labor cannot change the leader and continue to have the support of the independents.
The risk of a leader change will trigger a no-confidence vote in Parliment. The Independents will switch sides.

Gillard major weakness is to not resolve even one issue, before she raises another.
She is running the agenda, but flits from one unresolved issue to another, because its too hard. She creates new issues to get the pols up. Bad, bad , bad mistake.

Finally Colin Powell has 18 lessons of leadership, and lesson 1 is...
"Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off"
So to give Julia some credit, she has achieved this by pissing off 60 - 70 % of the Australian people.
Finally if there is a strong Gillard supporter out there, maybe you can send her the other 17.
Cheers


----------



## sptrawler

All doesn't seem to be well in the Labor camp.
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/nat...him-to-be-gagged/story-e6frg15u-1226077769232

Add to that, Oakeshott giving the Labor party an ultimatum, if they get rid of Gillard he will change sides.
Who is controlling these clowns, now an independent with no standing or moral obligation to the party is telling them who they have to have as leader. Is he afiliated with Labor for their policies or because he finds Julia attractive, obviously his loyalty to the government is very tentative.LOL


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> All doesn't seem to be well in the Labor camp.
> http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/nat...him-to-be-gagged/story-e6frg15u-1226077769232
> 
> Add to that, Oakeshott giving the Labor party an ultimatum, if they get rid of Gillard he will change sides.
> Who is controlling these clowns, now an independent with no standing or moral obligation to the party is telling them who they have to have as leader. Is he afiliated with Labor for their policies or because he finds Julia attractive, obviously his loyalty to the government is very tentative.LOL




He is afiliated by $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Thats all.
Now he is looking at his political future.
God help him!


----------



## Logique

I sat through The Insiders this morning, the luvvies were furiously circling the wagons, and looking ever so slightly rattled. Fran thinks Kevin Rudd is doing a good job as Foreign Minister. Also that $13M on govt CO2 advertising isn't that much. 

Of the 17 recent motions lost on the floor of parliament by the govt, Barry says these weren't important ones. In talking pictures, the pie chart at the top of the previous page wasn't mentioned at all, just alluded to, if you were quick.


----------



## Julia

Ferret said:


> Get real.  Do you seriously believe an Australian prime minister would be trying to send our country down the gurgler?
> 
> She is doing a lousy job and just keeps making bad decisions, but I don't accept that she is deliberately out to destroy.
> 
> She will be savaged next election.  I just wish there was a promising leader to take her place.



Agree on all points.  Incompetence shouldn't be confused with malicious intent.
I think she's doing her best but is simply failing to adequately perform in the role.



sptrawler said:


> All doesn't seem to be well in the Labor camp.
> http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/nat...him-to-be-gagged/story-e6frg15u-1226077769232
> 
> Add to that, Oakeshott giving the Labor party an ultimatum, if they get rid of Gillard he will change sides.
> Who is controlling these clowns, now an independent with no standing or moral obligation to the party is telling them who they have to have as leader. Is he afiliated with Labor for their policies or because he finds Julia attractive, obviously his loyalty to the government is very tentative.LOL



If the Independents remove their support from the government, do they automatically have to align themselves with the Coalition?  Can they not just revert to being non-aligned Independent members?

Wouldn't they lose all credibility if they suddenly became fans of the opposition which they have so criticised?  I can't see it happening.




Logique said:


> I sat through The Insiders this morning, the luvvies were furiously circling the wagons, and looking ever so slightly rattled. Fran thinks Kevin Rudd is doing a good job as Foreign Minister. Also that $13M on govt CO2 advertising isn't that much.



Barrie Cassidy was uncharacteristically determined to assert that our Kev is deliberately destabilising the PM and the government in general which fairly obviously he is, considering the media blitz in which he's currently indulging.  Quite amazing behaviour on the part of Kev imo.

One comment this morning from Piers Akerman made me laugh, i.e. when he referred to the Malaysia proposition as the government's "tag and release" scheme.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Agree on all points.  Incompetence shouldn't be confused with malicious intent.
> I think she's doing her best but is simply failing to adequately perform in the role.




I agree that it's not malicious intent and that incompetency seems to be the main culprit, possibly coupled with fabian socialist ideals which is taking labor up the garden path and away from working families. I think she had big ideals and policies that seemed OK to her in theory, but probably not realistic for the average Aussie.



> If the Independents remove their support from the government, do they automatically have to align themselves with the Coalition?  Can they not just revert to being non-aligned Independent members?
> 
> Wouldn't they lose all credibility if they suddenly became fans of the opposition which they have so criticised?  I can't see it happening.




Surely, they are bluffing?  Can't see them blocking supply to labor as that would force an election and their day in the sun is over.  And I can't see them supporting the coalition - they have made it clear they are labor people.  Just a pity they didn't fully disclose that to their electorates prior to the election and I doubt very much we would be in this woeful mess.

Maybe if Gillard's leadership was challenged and she resigned to hurt labor, perhaps the indies would then support the coalition to hold their day in the sun as long as possible.  But, on second thoughts, pigs might fly too...


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> One comment this morning from Piers Akerman made me laugh, i.e. when he referred to the Malaysia proposition as the government's "tag and release" scheme.




Yes, and his comment that Dame Elizabeth Murdoch's views don't count because she is too old.?


----------



## noco

Ferret said:


> Get real.  Do you seriously believe an Australian prime minister would be trying to send our country down the gurgler?
> 
> She is doing a lousy job and just keeps making bad decisions, but I don't accept that she is deliberately out to destroy.
> 
> She will be savaged next election.  I just wish there was a promising leader to take her place.




Ferret, I do not know what age group you live, but I can tell you I witnessed the way communism worked in the 50's and 60's.

Arther Caldwell and Dr.Evatt were both communists in the shadow of the Labor Party.These two were in volved with Petrov who finally sought political asylum in Australia. Petrov was in seclusion and under protection untill he died. Russia clearly wanted to get their hands on Petrov. His wife was forced on to a plane in Darwin Russian agents bound for Russia.

It is a proven fact that they were leaking information to Russia. Communism infiltrated into the unions to create industrial unrest with strikes for higher wages, shorter working hours, increased annual leave, leave loading etc.etc. It was all aimed at causing economic strife for an Australian Government; increased cost of manufacturing; high unemployment; infaltion; high interest rates; working man's dissatisfaction which they hoped would lead them to the alternative, COMMUNISM.

Gough Whitlam tried to "buy back the farm" by attempting to borrow billions of dollars from a fellow named Clemlami who was tied up with the Arabs. The untimate aim at the time was to have as much industry under the control of the Labor Government. Whitlam's Labor government were keen to nationalize the banks which would have been curtains for the Australian voters. You may laugh at these  facts, but do some research on the matter yourself.

Gillard was a member of the Fabian society which is really communism in disguise. Bob Brown and the Greens are even worse and they are the ones with influence on Gillard.

The way Gillard is going about things with the Greens, it will ultimately destroy free enterprise. The mining tax and the carbon tax are two examples where the Gillard Labor government are doing their best to drive mining, farming and manufacturing out of Australia to overseas interests. 

So now you tell me how will this affect employment? Do you not think it is similar to the 50's and 60's, only she is going about it in a different way?

It may be fortunate in one respect she is in a minority government backed up by some shakey independants.

Interesting times ahead.


----------



## springhill

noco said:


> The mining tax and the carbon tax are two examples where the Gillard Labor government are doing their best to drive mining, farming and manufacturing out of Australia to overseas interests.




Absolutely 100% correct in this regard, Labor Govt have opened the door to NZ fresh produce imports, firstly, and imports from China and the US, placing a huge bio-security risk to the fruit industry.
Revenue for Australian pome fruit producers is expected to drop by 33%. Not to mention costs incurred for treating new pests and diseases.

Several chemicals that are banned here, are used overseas liberally, and the produce is allowed to enter because it's the laws of the exporting country that determine what produce can enter Australia, not our own chemical laws. For example, Lebaycid is about to be banned in Australia, but fruit sprayed with Lebaycid in China can be imported as long as it is legal to spray said chemical in China.

Also, many food processing companies are now moving their premises to NZ, importing Chinese produce, canning it and labelling it Product of NZ. Don't believe everything you read about NZ clean and green standards.


----------



## Ferret

Noco,

If you are trying to say that we have previously had prime ministers who were deliberately trying to destroy the country they were leading, please give a name and I will research it.  I have never heard this said before and I simply don't believe it.

I agree that some of Gillard's decisions as leader are causing great harm to our country, but I cannot accept that this is her aim.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Ferret, I do not know what age group you live, but I can tell you I witnessed the way communism worked in the 50's and 60's.
> 
> Arther Caldwell and Dr.Evatt were both communists in the shadow of the Labor Party.These two were in volved with Petrov who finally sought political asylum in Australia. Petrov was in seclusion and under protection untill he died. Russia clearly wanted to get their hands on Petrov. His wife was forced on to a plane in Darwin Russian agents bound for Russia.
> 
> It is a proven fact that they were leaking information to Russia. Communism infiltrated into the unions to create industrial unrest with strikes for higher wages, shorter working hours, increased annual leave, leave loading etc.etc. It was all aimed at causing economic strife for an Australian Government; increased cost of manufacturing; high unemployment; infaltion; high interest rates; working man's dissatisfaction which they hoped would lead them to the alternative, COMMUNISM.
> 
> Gough Whitlam tried to "buy back the farm" by attempting to borrow billions of dollars from a fellow named Clemlami who was tied up with the Arabs. The untimate aim at the time was to have as much industry under the control of the Labor Government. Whitlam's Labor government were keen to nationalize the banks which would have been curtains for the Australian voters. You may laugh at these  facts, but do some research on the matter yourself.
> 
> Gillard was a member of the Fabian society which is really communism in disguise. Bob Brown and the Greens are even worse and they are the ones with influence on Gillard.
> 
> The way Gillard is going about things with the Greens, it will ultimately destroy free enterprise. The mining tax and the carbon tax are two examples where the Gillard Labor government are doing their best to drive mining, farming and manufacturing out of Australia to overseas interests.
> 
> So now you tell me how will this affect employment? Do you not think it is similar to the 50's and 60's, only she is going about it in a different way?
> 
> It may be fortunate in one respect she is in a minority government backed up by some shakey independants.
> 
> Interesting times ahead.



Noco, all the above is probably quite correct.  I wasn't living in Australia in those times so don't know.  But what Ferret, Sails and I are disagreeing with you about is your suggestion that Julia Gillard is purposely setting out to destroy Australia.
Most of us would agree that she's mistaken and misguided but why on earth would she be wanting to destroy the country, thus making a place for herself in the history books as one of Australia's worst Prime Ministers?  

And remember that 27% of Australians still think she's on the right path.




springhill said:


> Absolutely 100% correct in this regard, Labor Govt have opened the door to NZ fresh produce imports, firstly, and imports from China and the US, placing a huge bio-security risk to the fruit industry.



The fruit from NZ has been shown to be safe.  I think we're largely talking about apples here.  I lived most of my life in NZ and since coming to Australia,  have yet to eat a decent apple.  So I'd suggest that not only is free trade doing what it should, but Australian consumers will benefit from finally getting some good apples.

And in Qld at present bananas are from $12 to $14 kg whilst just over the border they are way cheaper, and in NZ are just $2 kg.  Obviously because NZ and probably NSW for all I know, import bananas from other countries.
Why on earth should the consumer be so penalised to protect outrageous prices from local growers?

We want free trade when it suits our exports but apparently not all of us are happy to accept that it goes the other way as well.


----------



## springhill

Julia said:


> The fruit from NZ has been shown to be safe.  I think we're largely talking about apples here.  I lived most of my life in NZ and since coming to Australia,  have yet to eat a decent apple.  So I'd suggest that not only is free trade doing what it should, but Australian consumers will benefit from finally getting some good apples.
> 
> And in Qld at present bananas are from $12 to $14 kg whilst just over the border they are way cheaper, and in NZ are just $2 kg.  Obviously because NZ and probably NSW for all I know, import bananas from other countries.
> Why on earth should the consumer be so penalised to protect outrageous prices from local growers?
> 
> We want free trade when it suits our exports but apparently not all of us are happy to accept that it goes the other way as well.




Julia, the import of NZ pome fruit brought fire blight to Australia, this is a particularly destructive disease that has to be treated by spraying antibiotics onto the trees, at the moment (until they are allowed in the front door) NZ is the back door agent for moving Chinese and US pome fruit into Aus.

I will agree with you that NZ apples are superior to ours.

I am happy to accept disease and pest free imports, or produce that is grown on a *level playing field*, re: chemical treatment.


----------



## Julia

springhill said:


> Julia, the import of NZ pome fruit brought fire blight to Australia, this is a particularly destructive disease that has to be treated by spraying antibiotics onto the trees, at the moment (until they are allowed in the front door) NZ is the back door agent for moving Chinese and US pome fruit into Aus.



Can I just be clear about what you're saying here?
Are you saying that apples Australia imports from NZ are not from NZ at all but are from China and the US, with NZ acting as , um, apple launderer?  As far as I know, so far no apples are imported into Australia from NZ or anywhere else, but I could be wrong here.  You may like to comment on this.

I wonder how much of the resistance to imported apples by Australian growers is really due to fear of any disease as opposed to fear of competition from a superior product?


----------



## drsmith

Ferret said:


> I agree that some of Gillard's decisions as leader are causing great harm to our country, but I cannot accept that this is her aim.



My view is that Julia Gillard (and perhaps the power brokers behind her) are driven more by power than anything and that to maintain that power they are prepared to sacrifice anything including our standard of living.

That being said, there is, in my view, a stronger sense of socialism behind Labor at the moment, but that's secondary to the above.


----------



## Ferret

drsmith said:


> My view is that Julia Gillard (and perhaps the power brokers behind her) are driven more by power than anything and that to maintain that power they are prepared to sacrifice anything including our standard of living.




Sadly, I think there is a lot of truth in this.  

Whilst there are those who genuinely want to serve their countries, there are many politicians all over the world who are more attracted to the power.  I don't believe they deliberately try to destroy their countries, but some do damage in there efforts to keep power.


----------



## drsmith

Lemon, lime and bitters,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/19/3247568.htm?section=justin



> Senator Brown says the advertisement shows the Opposition Leader Tony Abbott is still bitter that he could not win Government last year.
> 
> "He sidelined himself when he didn't get in to the agreement last year. He's got another two years to wait and he'll just have to be a bit bitter about it," he said.



What exactly does Bob Brown mean by "He's got another two years to wait" ?

Could it be that he too sees the current Labor government as electoral toast ?


----------



## springhill

Julia said:


> Can I just be clear about what you're saying here?
> Are you saying that apples Australia imports from NZ are not from NZ at all but are from China and the US, with NZ acting as , um, apple launderer?  As far as I know, so far no apples are imported into Australia from NZ or anywhere else, but I could be wrong here.  You may like to comment on this.
> 
> I wonder how much of the resistance to imported apples by Australian growers is really due to fear of any disease as opposed to fear of competition from a superior product?




Yes to clarify, i have jumped too far ahead for now, 'officially' no apples from NZ have been imported up until now, alot of importing happens on unofficial channels, not just with pome fruit, also stonefruit and not just country to country, also happens from state to state. This is fact.
I should have been more clear on what i can completely confirm and what i can't. Apologies for that.
All i can say with 100% clarity is that fire blight exists in NZ, it did not exist in Australia. Now it does. I believe it is under some measure of control in the eastern states.

I can not 100% say, with positivity, that NZ apples have arrived in Australia, but being in the industry nothing would suprise me. I would not bet my house that they haven't. I also can't 100% confirm or deny NZ is 'apple laundering' as you put it.  At least with Chinese apples.

This is also why there is an 'official' block on NZ and eastern states fruit into WA, as we are fire blight free. For now.

Chinese apples have already landed here, first shipment 13th Jan 2011 and have been coming in ever since, how many people knew that? I didn't!

In all honesty, the fear is partly due to price competition, i would be lying if i said otherwise, but there is a great deal of fear surrounding our relative disease free status, after all more disease = more chemical use, and no-one likes that.

Here is some reading material.
http://www.apal.org.au/information-news.cfm?id=1188&t=/aust-growers-cautious-over-nz-apples-risk/

http://www.getfarming.com.au/pages/farming/news_view.php?nId=11020114


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Noco, all the above is probably quite correct.  I wasn't living in Australia in those times so don't know.  But what Ferret, Sails and I are disagreeing with you about is your suggestion that Julia Gillard is purposely setting out to destroy Australia.
> Most of us would agree that she's mistaken and misguided but why on earth would she be wanting to destroy the country, thus making a place for herself in the history books as one of Australia's worst Prime Ministers?
> 
> And remember that 27% of Australians still think she's on the right path.
> 
> 
> 
> The fruit from NZ has been shown to be safe.  I think we're largely talking about apples here.  I lived most of my life in NZ and since coming to Australia,  have yet to eat a decent apple.  So I'd suggest that not only is free trade doing what it should, but Australian consumers will benefit from finally getting some good apples.
> 
> And in Qld at present bananas are from $12 to $14 kg whilst just over the border they are way cheaper, and in NZ are just $2 kg.  Obviously because NZ and probably NSW for all I know, import bananas from other countries.
> Why on earth should the consumer be so penalised to protect outrageous prices from local growers?
> 
> We want free trade when it suits our exports but apparently not all of us are happy to accept that it goes the other way as well.




Julia, Julia Gillard has been strongly influenced by the Greens for reasons of which we are well aware. The Greens want to close all the coal mines and coal fired power station. Please use your brain and think what this will do to the economy of this country. The Greens want to tax the mining companies to the hilt and are using the ploy that the people of Australia should have a bigger share of the profits and the billionaires should have a lot less.So what will happen to those mines if they cannot show a dividend to their share holders. Will they continue to mine in Australia or will they divest and reinvest in another counrty? The Greens want to apply the carbon dioxide tax to farmers, who I might add, are already struggling from overseas competition and  this stupid government have banned live cattle exports throwing the industry into absolute disaster which has affected shipping, transport, some 700 aboriginees out of work, added expense to the cattle producers all because of the knee jerk reaction from the Greens and other fanatical lobby groups. What has gone on in 4 out of some 100 Indonesian abattoirs has been known by governments of both persuasions for 9 yeras. So why throw the whole industry into turmoil? Why wasn't something done to inspect those rogue abattoris before now.Need I say any more to convince you people what this Labor/Green government is doing to the economy of this country.Gillard has gone along with with these fanatical groups. Why hasn't she stood up to them? Maybe it suits her to go along with them with her hidden agenda.

And 73% think she is on the nose.

We all know why bananas are so dear ATM is because of cyclone Yasi in North Queensland, which I will admit has been exploited by Woolworths and Coles.I do not believe for one moment the banana growers are receiving anything like the prices some people imagine they get in return. It happened a couple of years ago and within 6-8 months bananas were down around $1.50 - $2.00 a kg.  I purchased bananas from the markets this morning for $6 a kg. NZ import cheap bananas from Fifi together with many other agriculutural products. Our government allows oranges in from EGYPT; great news for our growers to send them broke.


----------



## trainspotter

Kevvy07 from Saviour of OZ to Pariah of the ALP in 12 months. Not a bad feat really.

John Howard must be spilling his chardy down the front of his shirt from laughing so much.


----------



## trainspotter

Just an observation ....... can anyone tell me what Julia Gillard has done in the past 12 months as our shiny new female PM?

At least with Kevvy07 you could keep a record of his failings. With Juliar Gizzard there is nothing to keep score on?

Now before you actually start bleating about the "Malaysian Solution" and the "Carbon Tax" blah blah blah ....... NONE of these have been signed or treatiesed or ratified. They are STILL mere proposals and have not passed parliament.

*Malaysian Solution* - Not signed and UN Convention breaches - EPIC FAIL

*Carbon TAX *- 6 months and STILL no detail nor price - MASSIVE FAIL

*Mining TAX* - STILL not agreed to by smaller miners - FAIL +++

*Blame Kevin Rudd for problems* - ALP is in self destruct mode - PASS WITH DISTINCTIONS

Politics used to be about how much money they were shoving into the education system, the police, hospitals, infrastructure, small tax changes and how much national debt they have reduced. THESE WERE ACHIEVABLE and ATTAINABLE, You could hit the targets and crow to the proletariat as to how clever you were at running a country. (The country seemed to tick along quite nicely as well) 

Now sadly it is about "BIG PICTURE" stuff and airy fairy proposals that piss off too many people/countries in the name of the "good" for the country.  Under previous governments "BIG PICTURE" things were done on the quiet and out of the media spotlight. Once all the detail was finalised then the substance was released to the people and the press for them to pick over the carcass. Not the other way around. We now have a government who is governing by committee and gaining ZERO traction for the "moving forward" process for our great country.


----------



## trainspotter

*DELEGATES at the Queensland ALP conference were handed a 24-page, full-colour brochure on Labor's achievements in power before Julia Gillard's speech on Saturday. *

*Party sources say it didn't take the true believers long to notice that most of the highlights of the past 3 1/2 years that the booklet lists so lyrically were brought about by local lad Kevin Rudd, and not his successor.*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-rudds-success/story-fn59niix-1226078125579

It seems the media is now onto this as well.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Julia, Julia Gillard has been strongly influenced by the Greens for reasons of which we are well aware. The Greens want to close all the coal mines and coal fired power station. Please use your brain and think what this will do to the economy of this country



I am quite capable of using my brain, noco, but thank you for the advice.
If the result is that I don't agree with you about something, then sorry, but that's just too bad.

I'm perfectly aware of the Greens' desires.  I'm also aware that the more ridiculous of these (such as closing the coal mines) will not happen because the government and the coalition would together vote against any such stupid legislation.



> We all know why bananas are so dear ATM is because of cyclone Yasi



So, why not import them in the meantime, rather than exploit consumers as is happening in Qld!



> NZ import cheap bananas from Fifi together with many other agriculutural products. Our government allows oranges in from EGYPT; great news for our growers to send them broke.



So what you want is for our exports to be freely distributed around the world, but not for any quid pro quo on imports?   Hardly reasonable.


----------



## trainspotter

> *RETAILERS have won the right to cut minimum shift lengths worked by young employees to just one and half hours a day. *
> 
> *Fair Work Australia* today granted National Retail Association's application to slash the national industry award for a three hour minimum shift to one and a half hours.




Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/bus...ge/story-e6frfm9r-1226078518583#ixzz0rNH67NzF

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZ I am sooo glad they got rid of WORK CHOICES! 

Another EPIC FAIL for this Labor Guvmint!


----------



## wayneL

Saw Juliar on the telly a few moments ago... Holy crap am I glad I don't have to hear her speak more than once in a blue moon.


----------



## sails

wayneL said:


> Saw Juliar on the telly a few moments ago... Holy crap am I glad I don't have to hear her speak more than once in a blue moon.




Yes, you are lucky...

The remote gets a good workout at our place...


----------



## drsmith

trainspotter said:


> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/bus...ge/story-e6frfm9r-1226078518583#ixzz0rNH67NzF
> 
> GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZ I am sooo glad they got rid of WORK CHOICES!
> 
> Another EPIC FAIL for this Labor Guvmint!



This is something that favours the employer over the employee.

Are you saying that it's hypocritical of the government to have got rid of Workchoices and then oversee the implementation of Workchoices type policies ?


----------



## Country Lad

drsmith said:


> This is something that favours the employer over the employee.




Oh yes? Tell that to the shool kids in regional towns.  Note the wording:  



> RETAILERS have won the right to cut minimum shift lengths worked by *young* employees to just one and half hours a day.





A friend who has a large IGA in a regional town employed many of the high school students over the years for an hour or 2 after school till closing time, even though he could have done without them.  The three hour rule meant he could no longer do that, meaning that the kids didn't get work experience, didn't earn spending or saving money.

The intention of the now successful application was in large part to get the ability to again employ the high school kids, giving them valuable work and life experience.  

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> ...Are you saying that it's hypocritical of the government to have got rid of Workchoices and then oversee the implementation of Workchoices type policies ?




Absolutely given the second message droned out on the ads in the days prior to the election was "If Mr Rabbit wins it will be Work Choices on Monday".

And we know the other droned repetitive message about no carbon tax under a government I lead.

So, is there any integrity left on both counts?


----------



## drsmith

Country Lad said:


> Oh yes? Tell that to the shool kids in regional towns.  Note the wording:



I was not my intention to suggest it was necessarily a bad thing.

Clearly, both employer and employee benefit in the example you have outlined.


----------



## Wysiwyg

> RETAILERS have won the right to cut minimum shift lengths worked by young employees to just one and half hours a day.



May as well condition them early about working for the man and the 40 -50 year grind. But really ... who would bother turning up for an hour and a half work. This will push more toward the easy way out on the dole.


----------



## Country Lad

Wysiwyg said:


> But really ... who would bother turning up for an hour and a half work.




My first hand experience is that many of the students in that town do exactly that.  What is your first hand experience which has led to your attitude of - bugger them, don't give them a chance?


----------



## Julia

Wysiwyg said:


> May as well condition them early about working for the man and the 40 -50 year grind. But really ... who would bother turning up for an hour and a half work. This will push more toward the easy way out on the dole.



On the contrary, many kids have just the hour and a half available after school, and with homework and other commitments.  If the kid and the employer mutually agree that they both want longer hours then they're free to arrange this.
All that has changed is the abolition of the totally unreasonable demand on employers that they had to employ a kid for a minimum of three hours.  Why on earth should either employer or employee be so dictated to!


----------



## Wysiwyg

Julia said:


> Why on earth should either employer or employee be so dictated to!



A workers union is a union of employees that reach an agreement with the employer that they have entitlements. Like over time penalty rates, sick leave, annual leave, hourly pay rates, meal breaks, unfair dismissal support, agreed wage increases in line with inflation, set ratio of casuals to permanents and job security to name some "rights". 
These union/employer agreements make many of the workplaces in Australia what they are today so human exploitation as can be seen in other countries does not happen.


----------



## trainspotter

drsmith said:


> This is something that favours the employer over the employee.
> 
> Are you saying that it's hypocritical of the government to have got rid of Workchoices and then oversee the implementation of Workchoices type policies ?




In the context of the argy bargy that the Unionists and Government came out with such vitriol towards Work Choices and now it is all OK under the Fair Work Act then yes this is exactly what I am alluding to. 

It is better for the YOUNG school kids due to scholastic reasons and also better for employers to deal with shift loads on seniors etc who can leave work early if they so desire. Think of the daylight saving period when everyone wants that extra hour of sunlight in the afternoon.

ALSO as an employer I could be a right b@stard and get 3 YOUNG employees to work 1.5 hours per shift twice a day each at a considerably cheaper rate than paying a senior PLUS sick leave PLUS holiday loading PLUS pay roll tax + (insert the $$$ here)


----------



## Wysiwyg

Country Lad said:


> My first hand experience is that many of the students in that town do exactly that.  What is your first hand experience which has led to your attitude of - bugger them, don't give them a chance?



The only place I see high school students working is Mc Donalds and Woolworths and that is not for an hour and a half.  I believe the minimum hours allowed could have remained the same.

When they get older they will understand.


----------



## moXJO

Wysiwyg said:


> The only place I see high school students working is Mc Donalds and Woolworths and that is not for an hour and a half.  I believe the minimum hours allowed could have remained the same.
> 
> When they get older they will understand.




newsagents, bakery, milk run, fish and chip shop the list goes on. IMO labor has made the option of employing people that much harder with their half assed tinkering.


----------



## LifeChoices

This is pretty cool:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/julia-gillard-first-year/



> *PM Julia Gillard's first year, in your words*
> 
> This week marks the first anniversary of Julia Gillard replacing Kevin Rudd as Prime Minister, and we asked you to send three words to describe your views on how Ms Gillard's minority Government has performed.


----------



## bellenuit

LifeChoices said:


> This is pretty cool:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/julia-gillard-first-year/




Disappointing seems the most prevalent word, as it is actually there 4 times under different guises and one misspelling.

Disappointing
Dissapointing (sp.)
Disappointed
Disappointment


----------



## sails

LifeChoices said:


> This is pretty cool:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/julia-gillard-first-year/




Yes, says it all really - and quite amazing coming from the ABC...

Why labor doesn't do something about it is unbelievable.  We thought Rudd was having trouble running the country, but this is much worse.  Definitely gone from the frying pan into the fire, imo.

It might not look good to change leaders again, but it also looks worse that labor appear weak and incapable of preventing any further damage, imo.  And the indies won't pull out on labor - that would force another election and they are likely to be history sooner than if they work with a new leader.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Yes, says it all really - and quite amazing coming from the ABC...
> 
> Why labor doesn't do something about it is unbelievable.  We thought Rudd was having trouble running the country, but this is much worse.  Definitely gone from the frying pan into the fire, imo.
> 
> It might not look good to change leaders again, but it also looks worse that labor appear weak and incapable of preventing any further damage, imo.  And the indies won't pull out on labor - that would force another election and they are likely to be history sooner than if they work with a new leader.



Who do you suggest should be Ms Gillard's replacement then, Sails?
I'll say again that I don't think it's just to do with the leader but way more to do with their woeful policy attempts.


----------



## Ruby

sails said:


> Why labor doesn't do something about it is unbelievable.  We thought Rudd was having trouble running the country, but this is much worse.  Definitely gone from the frying pan into the fire, imo.
> 
> It might not look good to change leaders again, but it also looks worse that labor appear weak and incapable of preventing any further damage, imo.  And the indies won't pull out on labor - that would force another election and they are likely to be history sooner than if they work with a new leader.




I don't think they *can *do anything.   The Gillard government has backed itself tightly into a corner.  It's a minority government; they have an uneasy alliance with the Greens and the independents; the independents have sold their souls to the devil; they are more unpopular than they were under Rudd; a second leadership coup would be a very bad look. The whole lot of them are walking a precarious tighrope - there is nowhere to turn.  I think they are going to have to continue to try and plough through the mess they have made.

Just my opinion.


----------



## LifeChoices

Julia said:


> Who do you suggest should be Ms Gillard's replacement then, Sails?
> I'll say again that I don't think it's just to do with the leader but way more to do with their woeful policy attempts.




What about Laurie Oaks - he knows heaps about politics?


----------



## joea

Well a snippet in the Australian has Shorten with Combet as his 2IC.

I think the cattle deal is to take the heat off the "boiler room".

We need to get a "fly" on the wall in a few offices in Canberra.

Great media!!!!

joea


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Who do you suggest should be Ms Gillard's replacement then, Sails?
> I'll say again that I don't think it's just to do with the leader but way more to do with their woeful policy attempts.




You're right, Julia.  I don't know that any labor MP could fix the messes already created.  Some have suggested Martin Ferguson, but it's hard to say.  Until they are in the driver's seat, it's difficult to guess.

I have heard too that Shorten with Combet as deputy is a possibility, however, I don't know that those two would perform any better than what we have now.  Perhaps they are all just lining up to get their PM life time perks and then resign so the next one can have a go.  

Maybe Turnbull will swap sides - but I don't think labor wants him.  I have heard that one needs to be a unionist to be a labor MP - not sure though.  Although I am sure IFocus will correct it if wrong...

Here's a 2009 article where Turnbull apparently approached Labor:

Full story from the Telegraph by Glenn Milne  23/8/2009: *Malcolm Turnbull wanted to join Labor*



> Speaking for the first time on the issue, Mr Hawke said Mr Turnbull approached him on November 6, 1999, at Sydney's Marriott Hotel following the referendum's defeat.
> 
> Mr Hawke said yesterday he remembered the conversation clearly. Mr Turnbull told him: "Bob, the only thing I can do now is join the Labor Party.'




I would think it unlikely, but we are in unusual political times.


----------



## Logique

To think that one extra vote would have seen this chameleon as Coalition leader. Enjoy your retirement Sen Nick Minchin, you did good.

And so, in a cruel irony of the election slogan, we continue 'Moving Backwards Together'. Berlin Wall East Germany is the template ordained for us.  

We will become an even greater laughing stock around the world - the country that took huge advantages and put it all 'up against the wall', for the sake of an outdated school blazer ideology, and junior high school economics.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Enjoy your retirement Sen Nick Minchin, you did good.



So agree.   He has been excellent and should have had more prominent positions.  Even now, he's unafraid to say what he thinks about anthropogenic climate change.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> To think that one extra vote would have seen this chameleon as Coalition leader. Enjoy your retirement Sen Nick Minchin, you did good.
> 
> And so, in a cruel irony of the election slogan, we continue 'Moving Backwards Together'. Berlin Wall East Germany is the template ordained for us.
> 
> We will become an even greater laughing stock around the world - the country that took huge advantages and put it all 'up against the wall', for the sake of an outdated school blazer ideology, and junior high school economics.




Never trusted him and for good reason, I never appreciated during the Howard years he was further right than Howard. Howard who was certainly canny knew this and kept him out of social portfolios.

See his hero was Peter Walsh  Labor finance minister from WA.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> Never trusted him and for good reason




I'm sure that's no reflection on Mr Minchin.  You wouldn't trust any non-Labor politician.


----------



## trainspotter

Dear Employees: As the CEO of this organization, I have resigned myself to the fact that *Julia Gillard is our Prime Minister* and that our taxes and government fees will increase in a BIG way because of their spending spree and proposed Carbon Dioxide tax. To compensate for these increases, our prices would have to increase by about 10%. But since we cannot increase our prices right now due to the dismal state of the economy, we will have to lay off sixty of our employees instead. This has really been bothering me since I believe we are family here and I didn't know how to choose who would have to go. So, this is what I did. I walked through our parking lots and found sixty Rudd and Gillard bumper stickers on our employees' cars and have decided these folks will be the ones to let go. I can't think of a more fair way to approach this problem. *They voted for change.....I gave it to them.* I will see the rest of you at the annual company picnic.


----------



## IFocus

Minchin is praised for having surplus's during his time as finance minister but take the sale of TLS out and it all looks pretty ordinary.

Minchin was also pro tobacco on the basis that it was a persons freedom of right to smoke. He raised this publicly a number of times.

He also pointed out that it save the government money people dying earlier of lung cancer and heart attacks and not being a cost to the system later in life.

As some one elected to serve the interests of his electorate it sort of rubbed him out as a humanist and as been trust worthy socially wise IMHO hence my line.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Apparently, in a matter of days the Senate will become a plaything of the Greens, courtesy of balance of power in their own right.

Wonder what shade of Green the Gillard Gummint will turn?


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> Minchin was also pro tobacco on the basis that it was a persons freedom of right to smoke. He raised this publicly a number of times.
> 
> He also pointed out that it save the government money people dying earlier of lung cancer and heart attacks and not being a cost to the system later in life.



From a purely pragmatic point of view, isn't he absolutely right on both counts?

One of the things I like about him is his refusal to adhere to the politically correct comment and in preference point out reality.




> As some one elected to serve the interests of his electorate it sort of rubbed him out as a humanist and as been trust worthy socially wise IMHO hence my line.



As far as I'm aware, he'd have no interest in being classified as a humanist.
And, if anything, I'd regard someone who is as candid about expressing his views as Mr Minchin has been, as much more trustworthy than most of his colleagues.

Much rather that, than the mealy mouthed hypocritical sycophantic bleatings that come out of the insincere mouths of most of our leaders and would-be leaders.



Aussiejeff said:


> Apparently, in a matter of days the Senate will become a plaything of the Greens, courtesy of balance of power in their own right.
> 
> Wonder what shade of Green the Gillard Gummint will turn?



It's a pretty scary thought.  We can, I suppose, only hope that the government and the coalition will vote together to dispense with the Greens' more outlandish proposals.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> ...As some one elected to serve the interests of his electorate ...




Haha, and Gillard is serving the best interests of her nationwide voters by lying to them about carbon tax?   Very little renewable, affordable and reliable energy to replace the main source of power that she plans to tax the hell out of? 

And that's only one issue. From the Liberal website: 50 Labor Lemons

 Let's get our priorities in order here...


----------



## trainspotter

*FAIL "D" on Juliar Gizzards Report Card*


> READERS have overwhelmingly given Julia Gillard the thumbs down on almost every measure in her first year as PM.
> 
> An estimated 20,000 readers of News Limited mastheads across the country - including news.com.au - gave Ms Gillard a resounding "D" for her performance on almost every important issue, one year after she took the mantle as Australia's first female Prime Minister.
> 
> The interactive report card, rating her performance on an A-D scale, shows Ms Gillard has precious little support for her handling of the mining tax, asylum seekers and the carbon tax.




http://m.news.com.au/TopStories/pg/0/fi762782.htm;jsessionid=9C759D2E37BC7D11B18F7B710BA081D4


----------



## dutchie

“There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead.”    --- Lie

"I've explained, of course, to the Australian people that I never meant to mislead anybody during the last election campaign about carbon pricing".    --- Lying about lying

Fit to be Prime Minister of Australia?


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> Fit to be Prime Minister of Australia?



In Julia's defence ,

1) Circumstances change. This is a government Bob Brown leads and he said, during the election campaign, there would be a carbon tax this term. 
2) It was not my intention to mislead anybody. It was my intention to mislead everbody, except the Greens.
3) The Australian people arn't anybody, they're nobody. Just ask the Greens, and Tony Windsor.



drsmith said:


> Tony Winsdor has declared that he would like to *"do something about this issue irrispective of whether it kills him at the polls or not"*. That's his own words.




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21961&p=641416&viewfull=1#post641416


----------



## sails

trainspotter said:


> *FAIL "D" on Juliar Gizzards Report Card*
> 
> http://m.news.com.au/TopStories/pg/0/fi762782.htm;jsessionid=9C759D2E37BC7D11B18F7B710BA081D4




And a poll from the Herald Sun:

Is Australia better off after 12 months of Julia Gillard as Prime Minister?

    Yes 6.19% (1160 votes)
    No 93.81% (17594 votes)

Total votes: 18754


----------



## Julia

Christian Kerr, in this weekend's "Australian" writes of his interview with Nigel Lawson, Margaret Thatcher's once right-hand man, who is to be in Sydney to participate in a public debate on the proposition:  "We need a carbon tax to help stop global warming".

The combatants themselves should raise temperatures.
The former British chancellor of the exchequer and energy secretary will lead a negative team comprising former Keating government minister Gary Johns and University of Adelaide geologist and author of the sceptic's bible "Heaven and Earth", Ian Plimer.

The affirmative will be put by two former opposition leaders, John Newson and Mark Latham, backed by University of NSW climatologist Benjamin McNeil.

A few extracts from the article:



> He (Lawson) dismisses as complete nonsense the argument that Australia has a special responsibility as a carbon intensive economy and big coal producer to show global policy leadership.
> 
> If China wants to develop and wants to increase productivity through, among other things, increasing electricity output capacity and has been building coal fired power stations and wants to import the coal to fuel them from Australia, I think you would be mad if you didn't supply it.
> 
> Lawson sees continuing strong demand for Australian coal despite promises by China and India to reduce their energy intensity, calling the pledges 'cover'.






> Lawson dismisses as economic illiteracy claims of a green jobs boom powered by renewables that will mop up unemployment from the structural adjustment to a low carbon economy, recruiting one of the great classical liberals to back his case.
> 
> "The French 19th century economist Frederic Bastiat said you might as well go round breaking windows saying you're creating jobs for glaziers.
> 
> What you've got to be concerned about are jobs in the economy as a whole and you don't create jobs in the economy as a whole by promoting something that is wholly uneconomic and has to be subsidised."
> 
> Lawson has strong views about what decarbonisation means.
> "The plain fact is the total economy will be harmed.
> 
> *A lot of these green jobs will be in China.  The Chinese can see there is a market in the West for solar panels and other things so they are producing them very much more cheaply.  Insofar as there are jobs they will be there, not in the consuming countries.*


----------



## Julia

Further from Mr Lawson:


> Julia Gillard regularly points to British Prime Minister David Cameron's environmental plans to embarrass the Coalition, but Lawson says Tory backbenchers are increasingly uncomfortable and indeed hostile to policies that are being proposed on the climate change front, which mean higher energy costs, which are bad for consumers.... and bad for British industry.
> 
> He points out Cameron and his ministers have a Plan B.  "The government has said it will review the matter in January 2014 in the light of what other European countries are doing and this is clearly a get out clause, this is clearly new and it was clearly put in at the behest of the Treasury as both the Treasury and Treasury ministers are very concerned at the cost of going it alone".


----------



## sails

Set top boxes off to a dubious start:

Full article from the Daily Telegraph by Samantha Townsend:

Broken Hill residents who received free digital set-top boxes are not happy 



> A FUZZY reception, just half of the promised channels, digital set-top boxes and antennas that don't work, and hundreds of dollars in extra, out-of-pocket expenses. Welcome to the future of watching television in NSW.




IMO, it is a scary prospect for this government to be let loose with a major tax change.  Their history of managing anything is dismal at best.


----------



## springhill

Congratulations Gillard, you have now put our Chinese exports under threat and have been labelled an 'unstable government'.
Nice work, anything other industry you clowns want to pull down?

http://sl.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/cattle/landmark-looks-to-nz/2209006.aspx


----------



## moXJO

springhill said:


> Congratulations Gillard, you have now put our Chinese exports under threat and have been labelled an 'unstable government'.
> Nice work, anything other industry you clowns want to pull down?
> 
> http://sl.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/cattle/landmark-looks-to-nz/2209006.aspx




lol what industry will get the 'Gillard touch' next?


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> lol what industry will get the 'Gillard touch' next?




The scope is immense.  As Ms Gillard protects her job by accepting any and all direction from the newly powerful Greens, no industry will be safe unless it's engaged in producing feelgood green things which - if the record so far is any guide - will be shown to be anything but cost-effective.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> The scope is immense.  As Ms Gillard protects her job by accepting any and all direction from the newly powerful Greens, no industry will be safe unless it's engaged in producing feelgood green things which - if the record so far is any guide - will be shown to be anything but cost-effective.




The Brown/Gillard aim to destroy Australian industries is going to plan. This could not be happening just by incompetent government. With Brown's hand on the helm Labor seems helpless to do anything positive.


----------



## DB008

moXJO said:


> lol what industry will get the 'Gillard touch' next?




It's like watching a car crash in slow motion....except, that car, is our country. l'm ashamed to call myself Australian  at the moment.


----------



## trainspotter

The end is nigh ! Run for the hills.



> Brown has made it clear that the Greens have a detailed agenda, and among its priorities is *the protection of the minority Labor government of Prime Minister Julia Gillard*.
> 
> Brown has made clear his Greens will not back any Coalition moves to break up the Government and force an election.




http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-end-of-the-parliamentary-world-as-we-know-it/


----------



## noco

Haven't I been quoting for weeks what this GREEN/LABOR SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT is up to and they are succeeding in destroying one industry after another. 

So why have certain ASF members branded me as rediculous?

Gillard and Brown's ideology is to nationalize mining, farming, banks and manufacturing and they are progressively doing it, and so far are getting away with it.

There is a lot of anger in the public at the moment and there is very little anyone can do about it and they know it.

What have we got to do? Start rioting in the streets? No that is not the Australian way.

How can we bring these idiots to the polls before they stuff up this once great country of ours?


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...l/comments/destroying_one_industry_at_a_time/


----------



## Julia

DB008 said:


> It's like watching a car crash in slow motion....except, that car, is our country. l'm ashamed to call myself Australian  at the moment.



 I understand how you feel.  Personally, I feel depressed and helpless.

How does a Vote of No Confidence work?  Presumably if the opposition were to make such a move in an attempt to force an election, the combined disagreement with the motion of the government and the Greens/Independents would ensure it wasn't carried?

So, truly nothing anyone can do?


----------



## trainspotter

Julia said:


> I understand how you feel.  Personally, I feel depressed and helpless.
> 
> How does a Vote of No Confidence work?  Presumably if the opposition were to make such a move in an attempt to force an election, the combined disagreement with the motion of the government and the Greens/Independents would ensure it wasn't carried?
> 
> So, truly nothing anyone can do?




From my previous post _"Brown has made it clear his Greens will not back any Coalition moves to break up the Government and force an election."_

I think Bigukraine mentioned a Triangulation Turkey Shoot in another thread. Has merit IMO.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I understand how you feel.  Personally, I feel depressed and helpless.
> 
> How does a Vote of No Confidence work?  Presumably if the opposition were to make such a move in an attempt to force an election, the combined disagreement with the motion of the government and the Greens/Independents would ensure it wasn't carried?
> 
> So, truly nothing anyone can do?




Julia, I am begining to wonder whether this Prime Minister of ours is not committing an act of treason. She and Brown are actually treating the Australian constitution with contempt.

They are preventing freedom of speech.

They are doing their level best to control the media.

They are going all out to counter democracy.

They are destroying industry one by one and very blatant about it.

Gillard has banned statements to the media by ministers and back benches until they have been veted by her.

Every Labor member of parliament are each given set lines of propapganda each day.

Gillard has lied to voters and parliament on numerous occassions and in particular in relation to the carbon dioxide tax.

I don't know why the opposition has not considered this and taken the issue to the highest court.


----------



## noco

trainspotter said:


> From my previous post _"Brown has made it clear his Greens will not back any Coalition moves to break up the Government and force an election."_
> 
> I think Bigukraine mentioned a Triangulation Turkey Shoot in another thread. Has merit IMO.




If this disfunctional government did happen to fall through one means or another  and Abbott became Prime Minister with a hostile Green dominated Senate, he could hold the gun at Brown's head with a threat of a double dissolution if the Greens did not toe the line.

I'm sure Brown would certainly not want a double dissolution of both houses because he and the Greens would be annihilated


----------



## todster

noco said:


> If this disfunctional government did happen to fall through one means or another  and Abbott became Prime Minister with a hostile Green dominated Senate, he could hold the gun at Brown's head with a threat of a double dissolution if the Greens did not toe the line.
> 
> I'm sure Brown would certainly not want a double dissolution of both houses because he and the Greens would be annihilated




The greens polled 13%in he senate and will now have 12% of senators short plane trip to NZ if you dont like it


----------



## todster

todster said:


> The greens polled 13%in he senate and will now have 12% of senators short plane trip to NZ if you dont like it





Say hello to Waynal


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> I understand how you feel.  Personally, I feel depressed and helpless.
> 
> How does a Vote of No Confidence work?  Presumably if the opposition were to make such a move in an attempt to force an election, the combined disagreement with the motion of the government and the Greens/Independents would ensure it wasn't carried?
> 
> So, truly nothing anyone can do?




Julia
Abbott has not got the numbers in a vote of no confidence. The votes he requires are held by people in fear of their political future.
Tony Windsor is busy buying $5.9 million of agriculture land. So he knows where his future is.
In the Australian, Bob Brown states that the Greens will overtake the ALP eventually.
To bring down the government I think Abbott has to block supply.

We are in a bad state of affairs now. It appears that the Liberal states a forming are united front, but as yet I do not know what they can achieve.

I think if it goes to an election, there will be a "hell" of a shake out.
joea


----------



## joea

Julia 
If you google " 50 Labor Lemons " you will get a list of the labor policies that the liberals have compiled.
joea


----------



## sails

todster said:


> The greens polled 13%in he senate and will now have 12% of senators short plane trip to NZ if you dont like it




"polled" = past tense

Future polling remains to be seen for the greens.  It seems they did well from protest votes in 2010 and are still polling OK in the opinion polls - which are also likely to be propped up somewhat by those who don't like the two major parties.  However, the greens have been in a relatively dark, but seemingly warm and fuzzy, corner better known for their tree hugging and saving whales. To some, they seem harmless enough to use as a protest vote. 

However, it will be interesting to see how they will fare in the polls as their green policies are brought out into the open and are scrutinised by both media and public. 

 Aussie voters historically punish minorities that have the balance of power to push their own agendas.  The greens are grinning like cheshire cats now, but they are only a double dissolution away from annihilation so they will need to watch their Ps and Qs...


----------



## Calliope

joea said:


> Julia
> If you google " 50 Labor Lemons " you will get a list of the labor policies that the liberals have compiled.
> joea




It depends on from what perspective you look at it. As the Green/Labor agenda is to turn this country into another Greece, you could say that they would rate those 50 Labor Lemons as successes. It's no wonder Bob Brown can't stop laughing.  There are plenty more Green/Labor Lemons to come.




> BOB Brown has a vision of the Australian Greens supplanting Labor as one of Australia's mainstream political parties in the decades ahead.
> 
> As the Greens leader celebrates 25 years as a parliamentarian *and holding the balance of power in both houses of parliament for the first time,* with a record 10 Greens MPs, he envisages a much broader political future than the passage of the carbon and mining taxes in the months ahead. "I believe the Greens as a party are in a similar position to what the Labor Party was 100 years ago," Senator Brown told The Weekend Australian in an interview.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...de-alp-bob-brown/story-fn59niix-1226085967764

_The Australian_ Editorial;  



> *Brown has shown hints of a smugness he will need to keep in check. Now is the time for Senator Brown to ensure his party exercises power in the national interest. We have argued that many Greens policies would not be in the national interest and that therefore voters should ensure they are "destroyed at the ballot box"*



.


----------



## joea

Calliope
Yes I agree with your logic entirely. It basically  "in the eye of the beholder".
In other words , think like Gillard.

It is interesting that with the change in the senate, people are thinking Bob Brown will have control, but my thinking if the government and coalition agree to block it, then they have the numbers.

Joe


----------



## noco

todster said:


> The greens polled 13%in he senate and will now have 12% of senators short plane trip to NZ if you dont like it




todster, the GREENS got in on Labor preferences. 

How do you think they will go at the next election with Labor's primary vote now down to about 27%. I would say the Greens will lose out big time. What do you reckon?

If it ever comes to a double disollution, it will wipe the smile of Brown's face.


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> To bring down the government I think Abbott has to block supply.



How does this actually work, joe?


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Calliope
> Yes I agree with your logic entirely. It basically  "in the eye of the beholder".
> In other words , think like Gillard.
> 
> It is interesting that with the change in the senate, people are thinking Bob Brown will have control, but my thinking if the government and coalition agree to block it, then they have the numbers.
> 
> Joe




If it ever happened by some miracle that Labor was forced to an election and Abbott became Prime Minister, Brown would have to be very careful about blocking coaltion legislation on a continuous basis. All Abbott has to do is threaten Brown with a double disollution of both houses and he will finish up with khaki underpants. 

The Greens will be annihilated if it ever came to a double dissolution.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> How does this actually work, joe?




The senate can block supply with a majority as it happened with Whitlam in 1975, but I can't see the Greens siding with the coalition senators on that one.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> If it ever happened by some miracle that Labor was forced to an election and Abbott became Prime Minister, Brown would have to be very careful about blocking coaltion legislation on a continuous basis. All Abbott has to do is threaten Brown with a double disollution of both houses and he will finish up with khaki underpants.
> 
> The Greens will be annihilated if it ever came to a double dissolution.




Once again I agree with you, and I think that is why Bob Brown has a "smug " look on his face. I also think that Brown has done some backyard dealings with the independants
so they will not cross the floor in this term.
What I would really like to know what "game plan" that Abbott is working on.
He surely has to come out with some strong policy now.
He gives me the impression he letting her "cook her own goose". (downfall)

I just hope Sarah Hanson Young is not let off the leash. I reckon Bob Brown is a saint compared to her.
joea


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> In the Australian, Bob Brown states that the Greens will overtake the ALP eventually.



That's his intention. Three's a crowd when it comes to major parties.

With the Green drums beating ever louder in the ears of Labor, the question now is when dispair for them turns to panic. Hopefully it will be soon.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> The senate can block supply with a majority as it happened with Whitlam in 1975, but I can't see the Greens siding with the coalition senators on that one.




Julia
What I mean is, if Brown gets out of hand, the Gov plus opposition can join together.
After all Gillard must have some sense left. "surely"

A lot of policies go through that both sides agree with. But there is no media coverage.
Good news does not sell, only bad news or a brawl.

Its like Gillard may not release the Carbon price etc. before the winter break. Because the opposition can pull it to bits during the break. The Greens however are going to now put pressure on Gillard to get more from mining and polluters.

If you understand the term "shadow boxing", well that is how it will start out.

feint,....feint,....feint. Then somebody will attempt to land a blow. The first one or two will not hurt, but the next one will sting.

Gee the media are going to love it.
joea


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> If it ever comes to a double disollution, it will wipe the smile of Brown's face.




As the placard said:

*If it's Brown, flush it down.*


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> As the placard said:
> 
> *If it's Brown, flush it down.*





Calliope, just love that one.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> The senate can block supply with a majority as it happened with Whitlam in 1975, but I can't see the Greens siding with the coalition senators on that one.






joea said:


> Julia
> What I mean is, if Brown gets out of hand, the Gov plus opposition can join together.
> After all Gillard must have some sense left. "surely"



Yes, I understand that.  My point is rather that the Greens, Independents, and Labor are all going to keep supporting one another - regardless of what compromises they may have to make to this end - because to do otherwise would be to invite a wipe-out of most of them, such is the level of public disquiet.

So, in the face of this, it's hard to know what the Opposition can do to force a double dissolution election.
Undoubtedly there are some forum members more up with the Constitution than I am, who may have some suggestions here?


----------



## joea

Calliope said:


> As the placard said:
> 
> *If it's Brown, flush it down.*




Hey Calliope I just got off the floor from laughing at this.
You have to get this statement into the banner brigade.

You just made my day. To celebrate I am going to flush down a Carlton Mid.
joea


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Yes, I understand that.  My point is rather that the Greens, Independents, and Labor are all going to keep supporting one another - regardless of what compromises they may have to make to this end - because to do otherwise would be to invite a wipe-out of most of them, such is the level of public disquiet.
> 
> So, in the face of this, it's hard to know what the Opposition can do to force a double dissolution election.
> Undoubtedly there are some forum members more up with the Constitution than I am, who may have some suggestions here?




Julia
But do you not think  if Brown gets out of hand, Govment plus Abbott, could shackle him. It would make him look a real fool. Abbott would be laughing, and Gillard would be thinking "cop that you standover merchant"
He might give respect to both parties but I doubt it.
joea


----------



## laurie

It will take 2 elections to get the Greens out of the Senate I may be wrong the last election was not a half senate election but a full one


----------



## joea

laurie said:


> It will take 2 elections to get the Greens out of the Senate I may be wrong the last election was not a half senate election but a full one




you are correct. We are going to cop it for a while.
joea


----------



## sails

laurie said:


> It will take 2 elections to get the Greens out of the Senate I may be wrong the last election was not a half senate election but a full one




Pretty sure it was a half senate election.  It will be interesting to see how much the media shine the torch on green policies for voters to get a better idea of their policies and then decide if the majority accept or reject them.

We know Gillard HAS to call an election within two years, and if opinion polls continue with the current trend (and quite possible as it seems incompentency is the real culprit) - the Coalition will be in power.  Any nonsense from Brown and it will be back to the polls with a double dissolution and the majority of voters may woken up to what the greens want to do to our economy.  So, Brown will also have his wings clipped to a degree as they won't want to be wiped out as happened to the democrats.

The real worry is that, until the next election, Gillard won't want to call a double dissolution because she knows labor would be a gonner.  So I suspect there will be a fair bit of push and shove from both of them.  We are in interesting times.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Pretty sure it was a half senate election.  It will be interesting to see how much the media shine the torch on green policies for voters to get a better idea of their policies and then decide if the majority accept or reject them.
> 
> We know Gillard HAS to call an election within two years, and if opinion polls continue with the current trend (and quite possible as it seems incompentency is the real culprit) - the Coalition will be in power.  Any nonsense from Brown and it will be back to the polls with a double dissolution and the majority of voters may woken up to what the greens want to do to our economy.  So, Brown will also have his wings clipped to a degree as they won't want to be wiped out as happened to the democrats.
> 
> The real worry is that, until the next election, Gillard won't want to call a double dissolution because she knows labor would be a gonner.  So I suspect there will be a fair bit of push and shove from both of them.  We are in interesting times.




Yes it was a half senate election.

As I have stated before, if for one reason or another Labor is forced to an election and Abbott becomes Prime Minister and he then has lots of obsruction from the Green balance of power in the senate, he has the right to call a double dissolution of both house in which case there be a full senate election.

It may cause Brown to back off if he is threatened with such circumstances, for he knows full well his party would almost be diminished to nothing as more and more voters  begin to understand what the Greens idiology is all about.

If voters are happy to be drawn into communism, then VOTE GREENS.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Pretty sure it was a half senate election.



Yep, definitely half senate.  Following is background to Senate composition etc.


> Normally, senators are elected at the same time as members of the House of Representatives, but because their terms do not coincide, the new Parliament will for some time comprise a new House of Representatives and a substantially old, lame-duck Senate.
> 
> Slightly more than half of the Senate is contested at each general election (half of the 72 state senators, and all four of the territory senators), along with the entire House of Representatives. State senators are normally elected for fixed terms of six years, commencing on 1 July following the election, and ceasing on 30 June six years later.
> 
> The terms of the four senators from the territories are not fixed, but are defined by the dates of the general elections for the House of Representatives, the period between which can vary greatly, to a maximum of three years and three months. Territory senators commence their terms on the day that they are elected. Their terms expire the day prior to the following general election day.[4]
> 
> Following a double dissolution, all 76 senators face re-election. There have also been elections at which only half the Senate was up for election. The last time this occurred was on 21 November 1970.






> It will be interesting to see how much the media shine the torch on green policies for voters to get a better idea of their policies and then decide if the majority accept or reject them.



Yes, it's about time some scrutiny was applied to the Greens.  I've attempted to prod "The Australian" in this respect by emailing Dennis Shanahan with such a request.
Chris Urhlman did do a pretty good interview with Bob Brown a few months ago which left Mr Brown looking both silly and very irritated that such examination should have been directed toward his policies.
We need a lot more of this, but let's not hold our collective breath for this coming from any of the Fairfax media.




> We know Gillard HAS to call an election within two years, and if opinion polls continue with the current trend (and quite possible as it seems incompentency is the real culprit) - the Coalition will be in power.  Any nonsense from Brown and it will be back to the polls with a double dissolution and the majority of voters may woken up to what the greens want to do to our economy.  So, Brown will also have his wings clipped to a degree as they won't want to be wiped out as happened to the democrats.
> 
> The real worry is that, until the next election, Gillard won't want to call a double dissolution because she knows labor would be a gonner.  So I suspect there will be a fair bit of push and shove from both of them.  We are in interesting times.



Ah, what a lovely fantasy is a double dissolution.  I can't see it being allowed to happen prior to the due date for the next election, but I guess we can hope.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...Ah, what a lovely fantasy is a double dissolution.  I can't see it being allowed to happen prior to the due date for the next election, but I guess we can hope.




Agree it's most unlikely this side of an election as it would be political suicide for Gillard to call one, but quite possible once the coalition are back in government.

Also, if labor does manage to stay in power until 2013, there would be another half senate election and, if there is a strong push away from labor and greens, it would be interesting to see whether the greens could be at risk of losing their balance of power.   I don't know the numbers of the parties within the senate without doing some research.  Does anyone know?


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Agree it's most unlikely this side of an election as it would be political suicide for Gillard to call one, but quite possible once the coalition are back in government.
> 
> Also, if labor does manage to stay in power until 2013, there would be another half senate election and, if there is a strong push away from labor and greens, it would be interesting to see whether the greens could be at risk of losing their balance of power.   I don't know the numbers of the parties within the senate without doing some research.  Does anyone know?




From memory, the Greens had four and gained an additional five on the 2010 half senate election making a total of nine. most of which were with the help of Labor preferences. I think the others were something like Labor 29 and the Liberals and Nationals 34.


----------



## sails

Thanks Noco - and below is what I found on the AEC website on the senate numbers.  

In summary, 21 ALP and greens will be standing for re-election by 2013 elections to take office in 2014.  The coalition will have 18 not required for re-election and remaining until 2017, so if there is a swing away from labor/greens, it is quite possible that the coalition would retain the 18 seats standing for re-election in 2013 and would only need minimum of another 3 from the 21 greens and labor to control the senate after 2014. Seems quite plausible if Gillard and Brown keep up their current trends. 

It is a long time to wait and an enormous amount of damage could be done to the country in that time.  Just look how long it took Gillard and Brown to severely damage our cattle exports.  Damage that will now be very difficult to reverse.

----------------------------

*2007 Election (2008-2014 Senate)*
Liberal 		15
Australian Labor Party 		18
The Greens 	 	3
The Nationals 		2
CLP - The Territory Party 		1
Non Affiliated 		1
TOTAL 	40
http://results.aec.gov.au/13745/Website/SenatePartyRepresentation-13745.htm

-----------------------

*2010 election (2011 - 2017 senate)*
Australian Labor Party 		15
Liberal  12
Liberal National Party of Queensland 	3
The Greens 		6
The Nationals 	 	2
Country Liberals 	 	1
DLP - Democratic Labor Party  	1 
TOTAL 		40
http://results.aec.gov.au/15508/Website/SenatePartyRepresentation-15508.htm

--------------------------



> There are a total of 76 Senators: 12 for each State and two for each Territory. Senators for each State are elected for a six year term. Senators for each Territory are elected for a term equivalent to the duration of the House of Representatives. Forty Senate vacancies are contested at a half-Senate election.




http://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/How_to_vote/Voting_Senate.htm

--------------------

And this from contained in an article from the ABC on the current senate;



> The Greens now hold nine of the 76 seats.
> 
> The rest of the Senate is comprised of 31 Labor members, 29 Liberals, five Nationals, one independent and one senator from the Democratic Labor Party.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/07/02/3259557.htm


----------



## drsmith

The train wreck continues to accelerate downhill.

http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/


----------



## tech/a

Seems Gillard doesn't know which direction south is and we will be getting a global freezing!


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> The train wreck continues to accelerate downhill.
> 
> http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/



Certainly no encouragement there for the government.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> The train wreck continues to accelerate downhill. http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/



66% of Labor voters think the economy is heading in the right direction. Only 49%  of Green voters do, inference - they want the wick turned up even further. We see that 95% of Green voters think their senate majority will be good for Australia, and 44% of Labor voters (vs the 29% who think bad). 

Welcome folks, to Industry Roulette!  These are the rules: first a Four Corners 'expose', then...banned. Step up (or is that GetUp), who's next!  The luvvies must be beside themselves with how easy it was.

Coal miners, you've been shortlisted. Look for the Four Corners team to come sniffing around.


----------



## Logique

Open letter to senior federal ALP members and senators:

Are there not 5 patriots among you, with the courage to step forward and put an end to this madness...or 3...even 1? It must be clear to you by now that this government has been infiltrated and hijacked.

Your parliamentary leadership treats you with contempt, not bothering to consult you as a steady stream of Greens and independents file in and out of the PM's office.

When were the Australian people asked if they wanted 10% of the carbon tax siphoned off to the UN? 

The light on the hill grows dim. Australia can either turn our natural advantages to prosperity for all, making changes from a position of strength, or slip into futile impoverished mediocrity. And I don't only mean the carbon tax.

The quisling rouge usurper must go. You know it makes sense. Put your country first, that's why we elected you. The ALP might even regain some respect.

Thanks in anticipation,
sincerely, Logique


----------



## springhill

Logique said:


> Open letter to senior federal ALP members and senators:
> 
> Are there not 5 patriots among you, with the courage to step forward and put an end to this madness...or 3...even 1? It must be clear to you by now that this government has been infiltrated and hijacked.
> 
> Your parliamentary leadership treats you with contempt, not bothering to consult you as a steady stream of Greens and independents file in and out of the PM's office.
> 
> When were the Australian people asked if they wanted 10% of the carbon tax siphoned off to the UN?
> 
> The light on the hill grows dim. Australia can either turn our natural advantages to prosperity for all, making changes from a position of strength, or slip into futile impoverished mediocrity. And I don't only mean the carbon tax.
> 
> The quisling rouge usurper must go. You know it makes sense. Put your country first, that's why we elected you. The ALP might even regain some respect.
> 
> Thanks in anticipation,
> sincerely, Logique




Logique have you emailed this to all the Labor Members of Parliament?


----------



## Logique

No, but a capital suggestion SpringH. Any readers out there who keep an ALP members email list? (You might save me some time and leg work).


----------



## DB008

LOL.


----------



## startrader

Good on you Logique - good move.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> No, but a capital suggestion SpringH. Any readers out there who keep an ALP members email list? (You might save me some time and leg work).




Logique, you might get your wish for one ALP MP. This one is quite ill ATM and may have to quit.

Don't who it is, but I am trying to find out. Could well create a by-election.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> No, but a capital suggestion SpringH. Any readers out there who keep an ALP members email list? (You might save me some time and leg work).



The following is a list of all members, including party and email addresses.

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/memlist.pdf


----------



## startrader

I am in disbelief that the unthinkable (to me) is happening and this carbon tax is being foisted upon us.  This is like a bad dream that I am hoping I will awaken from any minute.

Words cannot describe the anger and fury I feel about this action.  I absolutely LOATHE this government.  And to think that I used to vote Labor!!!  The government has no mandate to bring in this tax and was elected on a platform of dishonesty.

I think we should be demanding a fresh election as this government clearly does not represent the interests of the majority of Australians and will go down in history as the most hated government in Australia.


----------



## trainspotter

Must be "Tell it like it is Monday". The anger amongst the proletariat is bordering on revolution.

"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 5


----------



## drsmith

trainspotter said:


> Must be "Tell it like it is Monday". The anger amongst the proletariat is bordering on revolution.



The media polls I've seen are generally around 80% against this carbon tax.


----------



## overit

drsmith said:


> The following is a list of all members, including party and email addresses.
> 
> http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/memlist.pdf




ALP, IND, Greens. I think I got them all. 

D.Adams.MP@aph.gov.au; A.Albanese.MP@aph.gov.au; adam.bandt.mp@aph.gov.au; Sharon.Bird.MP@aph.gov.au; Chris.Bowen.MP@aph.gov.au; David.Bradbury.MP@aph.gov.au; gai.brodtmann.mp@aph.gov.au; Anna.Burke.MP@aph.gov.au; Tony.Burke.MP@aph.gov.au; Mark.Butler.MP@aph.gov.au; Anthony.Byrne.MP@aph.gov.au; Nick.Champion.MP@aph.gov.au; Darren.Cheeseman.MP@aph.gov.au; Jason.Clare.MP@aph.gov.au; Julie.Collins.MP@aph.gov.au; Greg.Combet.MP@aph.gov.au; S.Crean.MP@aph.gov.au; Michael.Danby.MP@aph.gov.au; Yvette.D'Ath.MP@aph.gov.au; Mark.Dreyfus.MP@aph.gov.au; Justine.Elliot.MP@aph.gov.au; Kate.Ellis.MP@aph.gov.au; Craig.Emerson.MP@aph.gov.au; Laurie.Ferguson.MP@aph.gov.au; Martin.Ferguson.MP@aph.gov.au; J.Fitzgibbon.MP@aph.gov.au; Peter.Garrett.MP@aph.gov.au; Steve.Georganas.MP@aph.gov.au; Steve.Gibbons.MP@aph.gov.au; Gary.Gray.MP@aph.gov.au; Sharon.Grierson.MP@aph.gov.au; Alan.Griffin.MP@aph.gov.au; Jill.Hall.MP@aph.gov.au; Chris.Hayes.MP@aph.gov.au; ed.husic.mp@aph.gov.au; Harry.Jenkins.MP@aph.gov.au; stephen.jones.mp@aph.gov.au; Mike.Kelly.MP@aph.gov.au; Catherine.King.MP@aph.gov.au; andrew.leigh.mp@aph.gov.au; Kirsten.Livermore.MP@aph.gov.au; geoff.lyons.mp@aph.gov.au; JMacklin.MP@aph.gov.au; Richard.Marles.MP@aph.gov.au; R.McClelland.MP@aph.gov.au; D.Melham.MP@aph.gov.au; rob.mitchell.mp@aph.gov.au; John.Murphy.MP@aph.gov.au; Shayne.Neumann.MP@aph.gov.au; Robert.Oakeshott.MP@aph.gov.au; Brendan.O'Connor.MP@aph.gov.au; deborah.o'neill.mp@aph.gov.au; Julie.Owens.MP@aph.gov.au; mparke.mp@aph.gov.au; Graham.Perrett.MP@aph.gov.au; Tanya.Plibersek.MP@aph.gov.au; Bernie.Ripoll.MP@aph.gov.au; Amanda.Rishworth.MP@aph.gov.au; michelle.rowland.mp@aph.gov.au; Nicola.Roxon.MP@aph.gov.au; Kevin.Rudd.MP@aph.gov.au; Janelle.Saffin.MP@aph.gov.au; Bill.Shorten.MP@aph.gov.au; Stephen.Smith.MP@aph.gov.au; laura.smyth.mp@aph.gov.au; Warren.Snowdon.MP@aph.gov.au; Wayne.Swan.MP@aph.gov.au; Mike.Symon.MP@aph.gov.au; Craig.Thomson.MP@aph.gov.au; Kelvin.Thomson.MP@aph.gov.au; Maria.Vamvakinou.MP@aph.gov.au; andrew.wilkie.mp@aph.gov.au; Tony.Windsor.MP@aph.gov.au; Tony.Zappia.MP@aph.gov.au


----------



## trainspotter

Nice work ASF teamsters ! 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Now everybody email the lot of them.


----------



## springhill

I have just sent an email to every Labor, Green & Independant member, i encourage all others to do the same.

:aus:


----------



## springhill

springhill said:


> I have just sent an email to every Labor, Green & Independant member, i encourage all others to do the same.
> 
> :aus:




In my haste i forgot to attatch the letter from Terry Caldwell, if others are doing the same, could they attatch this letter an ask the members to read it.

It may help.

http://www.climatesceptics.com.au/documents/on-coal-fired-power-electricity-generation.pdf


----------



## overit

Pretty much sums it up!


----------



## DB008

Wrong Flag TS


----------



## joea

Somewhere I  heard Julia Gillard saying she will be remembered in history as the PM who reformed Australia in relation to tax reform and climate change.
Now I know it was on the radio, but cannot quote you, because every time I listened I felt drozy, listening to her voice and nearly run off the road. So I changed to music.

But there it is. She believes that she will be rembered for her hard decisions to reform Australia for future generations.
"Or was I dreaming?"
joea


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> Somewhere I  heard Julia Gillard saying she will be remembered in history as the PM who reformed Australia in relation to tax reform and climate change.



She will be remembered as the PM who conned the electorate, carbon tax or not.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> She will be remembered as the PM who conned the electorate, carbon tax or not.




The rumour is she will be gone in 2 weeks. Hawkie said 3 months as at the beginning of June 2011. Maybe he knows something we don't know.


----------



## sails

Essential media report as of today, 11th July.  It looks like Australia is heading further  away from Gillard and Labor.  Some interesting stats there including questions on voting types (eg preferential or first past the post), voluntary voting, do we spend too much on foreign aid, etc.

It is slightly kinder to labor than the recent Roy Morgan Poll and puts LNP at 57% to labor's 43% on 2pp, however, even essential media are showing a clear downward trend for labor and upward for the LNP.  Labor primary has dropped to 30% and LNP have climbed to 50%.

The poll for carbon pricing was taken before yesterday's announcement, so that may be old news now.


http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> The poll for carbon pricing was taken before yesterday's announcement, so that may be old news now.
> 
> http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/



She's starting from a long way down a deep hole judging by her personal approval ratings and the trend.

In that poll, more *strongly* disapprove of the job she is doing as Prime Minister than approve.

http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/approval-of-julia-gillard-17/#more-2313


----------



## wayneL

DB008 said:


> Wrong Flag TS





Here was my suggestion a while ago here:


----------



## trainspotter

Brilliant WayneL. I am going to get this made for real and fly it from the flybridge of my boat.


----------



## wayneL

trainspotter said:


> Brilliant WayneL. I am going to get this made for real and fly it from the flybridge of my boat.




So long as there is an open invitation to slurp expensive woobla and feast on fresh cray on said boat if ever I visit Gero again. (I'll bring my share)


----------



## trainspotter

wayneL said:


> So long as there is an open invitation to slurp expensive woobla and feast on fresh cray on said boat if ever I visit Gero again. (I'll bring my share)




I will personally pipe you on board. No need to bring largesse. Welcome anytime.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> The rumour is she will be gone in 2 weeks. Hawkie said 3 months as at the beginning of June 2011. Maybe he knows something we don't know.



27% primary.  

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...pport-collapsing/story-fn59niix-1226092680105

That might rattle a few cages.


----------



## Logique

27 percent! It's starting to look NSW'ish for delusional Labor. Destined for a collision with reality.







> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...pport-collapsing/story-fn59niix-1226092680105
> 
> In the two-week lead-up to Sunday's release of the full details of the government's carbon tax package, Labor's primary vote fell three percentage points to a record low of 27 per cent.
> 
> Support for the Coalition rose three percentage points to 49 per cent its highest primary votes since October 2001.


----------



## DB008

She was on talk back radio this morning while l was driving my car. I had to turn it off after 3 minutes. Oh the lies, damn lies....

(If the Government introduces a tax for CO2, and we (the public) get subsidized for it, why bother changing if it doesn't effect us, financially? And, if the Government was serious about 'Global Warming/Climate Change', why wind back the Solar Panel rebate?)


----------



## Calliope

DB008 said:


> (If the Government introduces a tax for CO2, and we (the public) get subsidized for it, why bother changing if it doesn't effect us, financially?




Exactly. The only way to cut back on power usage is to make the consumer hurt. 

Think of the banana analogy. I bought three bananas today at Coles *for $1.80 each.* Normally I would have bought a kilo.


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard's definition of democracy,



> "Democracy is not one long opinion poll. *Democracy is leaders making the right choices for the nation's future."*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tax-announcement/story-fn59niix-1226093068395

Wikipedia's definition of democracy,



> *Democracy is a form of government in which all citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.* Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law.




From that, it's easy to see where she's gone wrong. Wikipedia's definition includes citizens. Julia Gillard's does not.


----------



## wayneL

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard's definition of democracy,




So China would arguably fit Julia's definition of a democracy! It really is nineteen eighty four innit!


----------



## derty

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard's definition of democracy,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tax-announcement/story-fn59niix-1226093068395
> 
> Wikipedia's definition of democracy,
> 
> 
> 
> From that, it's easy to see where she's gone wrong. Wikipedia's definition includes citizens. Julia Gillard's does not.



We are under a Parliamentary Democracy  what you are thinking of is a Direct Democracy


----------



## drsmith

wayneL said:


> So China would arguably fit Julia's definition of a democracy! It really is nineteen eighty four innit!



As would North Korea and the former USSR.

I'll refrain from going where Lord Monckton's been.


----------



## wayneL

derty said:


> We are under a Parliamentary Democracy  what you are thinking of is a Direct Democracy




So a parliamentary democracy is one where a member is elected on the basis that (s)he best represents the electorate's views, but then proceeds to ignore the same?


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> So a parliamentary democracy is one where a member is elected on the basis that (s)he best represents the electorate's views, but then proceeds to ignore the same?




In practice, the member represent's her/his party's platform and the electorate votes for which party's platform best matches their own views. Of course some people may opt to chose a member even if they prefer another party's platform, because they view the member as being better from a character point of view.

Her lie to the electorate on a carbon tax severely damages our democracy, as it clearly violates the principle of parliamentary democracy. The fact that The Greens and some independents have no issue with the about face and are willing to support the charade shows that they are equally lacking in principle.


----------



## trainspotter

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard's definition of democracy,
> 
> *"Democracy is not one long opinion poll. Democracy is leaders making the right choices for the nation's future." .*




OMFG !!!!!!!!!! It is Animal Farm all over again. 

"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Julia that all people are equal. She would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 5


----------



## Logique

springhill said:


> I have just sent an email to every Labor, Green & Independant member, i encourage all others to do the same. :aus:



 No responses from any of them yet. So far I've only had a few auto-replies.

Thanks Overit and Dr Zacchary for those addresses.


----------



## springhill

Logique said:


> No responses from any of them yet. So far I've only had a few auto-replies.
> 
> Thanks Overit and Dr Zacchary for those addresses.




I received this from Shayne Neumann rather quickly.

Dear Brett

Thank you for emailing me regarding the carbon pricing scheme.  I appreciate the time you have taken to let me know your thoughts.

In order for me to respond I need to confirm that you are a resident in my electorate of Blair.

Please forward your address and contact details to shayne.neumann.mp@aph.gov.au so that I can respond to your concerns.

In the meantime, please be assured that the carbon pricing scheme is just one element of the Clean Energy Future package. The carbon price will only be applied to the largest polluters for every tonne of pollution they release into our atmosphere. For more details of the package and what it will mean for you I recommend you visit www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au

Kind regards

Shayne Neumann MP



Also a reply from Julie Owens

Dear Brett

Thanks for emailing me.  I have been talking to a lot of people in my electorate about this issue.  Would you mind letting me know if you live in the Parramatta Electorate.  If you do, please provide your name and address.

If you live elsewhere, thanks for emailing me anyway.  I appreciate knowing the views of the broader community.

By the way, we supported pricing carbon through 2007 to 2010 and introduced legislation to Parliament – and didn’t require the support of the Greens at that time.  We went to the last election with a commitment to pricing carbon - before we new the outcome of the election.  I’ve been committed to it since 2004 and remain committed. 

Julie Owens


----------



## drsmith

springhill said:


> I received this from Shayne Neumann rather quickly.
> 
> In order for me to respond I need to confirm that you are a resident in my electorate of Blair.
> 
> Also a reply from Julie Owens
> 
> Would you mind letting me know if you live in the Parramatta Electorate.  If you do, please provide your name and address.



What difference does it make ?

This is a policy that affects the nation as a whole.


----------



## trainspotter

Exactly Dr Smith. Why do they need to know your name and address and to see if you are in their electorate? Afterall it is about a GLOBAL CO2 problem and not just their electorate issues.

*scoots out the door to go fishing*


----------



## basilio

trainspotter said:


> Exactly Dr Smith. Why do they need to know your name and address and to see if you are in their electorate? Afterall it is about a GLOBAL CO2 problem and not just their electorate issues.
> 
> *scoots out the door to go fishing*




Probably just nice to know it is coming from "real" people as distinct from creative astroturfing.

 ___________________________________________________________

One day...hopefully soon.. some members of this forum might realise that

1) There is a  very serious problem with CO2 emissions increasing global temperatures to a point where current life on life will be impossible

http://www.theage.com.au/national/t...f-degrees-says-one-expert-20110712-1hcad.html

2) That tackling this problem is a world wide effort and that even if out contribution is necessarily small it is still part of a larger scale effort.

3) Putting a price on carbon may not be the only answer or the whole one but it sure beats the drivel that Tony Abbott is trotting out as an excuse to tackle  global warming.(which, incidentally, he theoretically accepts is happening and caused by human produced CO2 )

http://www.theage.com.au/business/abbotts-climate-plan-fails-the-test-20110712-1hc6z.html


----------



## sptrawler

basilio said:


> Probably just nice to know it is coming from "real" people as distinct from creative astroturfing.
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> 
> One day...hopefully soon.. some members of this forum might realise that
> 
> 1) There is a  very serious problem with CO2 emissions increasing global temperatures to a point where current life on life will be impossible
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/national/t...f-degrees-says-one-expert-20110712-1hcad.html
> 
> 2) That tackling this problem is a world wide effort and that even if out contribution is necessarily small it is still part of a larger scale effort.
> 
> 3) Putting a price on carbon may not be the only answer or the whole one but it sure beats the drivel that Tony Abbott is trotting out as an excuse to tackle  global warming.(which, incidentally, he theoretically accepts is happening and caused by human produced CO2 )
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/business/abbotts-climate-plan-fails-the-test-20110712-1hc6z.html




Best you hold onto those thoughts basilio, Julia and Bob are going to need your vote. 
It appears that the vast majority of Australians agree with some of us on this forum that this is not the best way of addressing the problem.LOL


----------



## drsmith

basilio said:


> Probably just nice to know it is coming from "real" people as distinct from creative astroturfing.
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> 
> One day...hopefully soon.. some members of this forum might realise that
> 
> 1) There is a  very serious problem with CO2 emissions increasing global temperatures to a point where current life on life will be impossible
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/national/t...f-degrees-says-one-expert-20110712-1hcad.html
> 
> 2) That tackling this problem is a world wide effort and that even if out contribution is necessarily small it is still part of a larger scale effort.
> 
> 3) Putting a price on carbon may not be the only answer or the whole one but it sure beats the drivel that Tony Abbott is trotting out as an excuse to tackle  global warming.(which, incidentally, he theoretically accepts is happening and caused by human produced CO2 )
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/business/abbotts-climate-plan-fails-the-test-20110712-1hc6z.html



1) Alarmist rubbish. Life on earth would thrive in a warmer environment. Compare the diversity of life in the tropics compared to the poles. That does not mean we should rush blindly to that outcome, but to suggest that the end of the world is nigh as per the headline of that article is nonsense.

2) Management of the atmosphere is a world problem, but what exactly are the big worldwide energy users doing ? 
China for example is building coal fired power stations as fast as they can. There's a smart way and a dumb way to manage global issues. The dumb way is to cut your own throat economically while the rest of the world does little more than carry on regardless.

3) Interesting that Labor and the Greens are also promoting the spending of billions in their so-called direct action as part of their own package and are redistributing wealth. Their package overall has more to do with alternative agendas than it does with atmospheric management. They promote alarmist claims to convince the populous to make sacrifices at the altar. In this case it's tax. In past civilisations, it was much more.


----------



## drsmith

It's only a small sample, but the results are no suprise.

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8272261/poll-shows-majority-against-carbon-tax


----------



## IFocus

> drsmith;645453]1) Alarmist rubbish. Life on earth would thrive in a warmer environment. Compare the diversity of life in the tropics compared to the poles. That does not mean we should rush blindly to that outcome, but to suggest that the end of the world is nigh as per the headline of that article is nonsense.




Dr you surprised me with this.

Bio diversity takes a lot longer than 100 or 200 years to form so there would carnage in the immediate term, but you are right it would not destroy the world but it will cause some significant problems for humanity on a massive scale.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Bio diversity takes a lot longer than 100 or 200 years to form so there would carnage in the immediate term, but you are right it would not destroy the world but it will cause some significant problems for humanity on a massive scale.



Whether or not that's the case, a carbon tax in Australia while the majority of global fossil fuel use is not subject to a comparable carbon cost will change that how ?


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Whether or not that's the case, a carbon tax in Australia while the majority of global fossil fuel use is not subject to a comparable carbon cost will change that how ?



+1.  Exactly my question also.


----------



## Logique

IFocus said:


> Bio diversity takes a lot longer than 100 or 200 years to form so there would carnage in the immediate term, but you are right it would not destroy the world but *it will cause some significant problems for humanity* on a massive scale.



As would withdrawal of current baseload electricity sources. Biodiversity has survived meteorite strike and ice ages, so .00002 deg warmer should be manageable.


----------



## DB008

*SPORTSBET*
http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/australian-federal-election-2013/14



> Sworn In Government
> Wednesday 31/12/2014
> Match Betting (4)02:30 | Australian Federal Election 2013/14
> 
> Coalition	1.40
> Australian Labor Party	2.90


----------



## Calliope

Gillard says she is a shy person. So are most reptiles but they are still poisonous.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Whether or not that's the case, a carbon tax in Australia while the majority of global fossil fuel use is not subject to a comparable carbon cost will change that how ?




Again you surprise me, the carbon tax looks more like treasury tax reform by stealth than any thing to do with reducing carbon emissions to me.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Again you surprise me, the carbon tax looks more like treasury tax reform by stealth than any thing to do with reducing carbon emissions to me.




Yes, we can agree...

The more I learn about it, the more it looks like the dumbest thing on earth.

IF co2 is really a problem, surely these clever scientists who invented AGW could come up with a sensible way to actually reduce it without using hard working Aussies to fund all sorts of people, both here and in other countries?  I think these scientists would be given much more credibility instead of their theories being thrown out with the carbon tax bath water as they are now by a growing number of people.


----------



## springhill

Politicians generally have 3 cards up their sleeve.

1. Tell it to 'em straight, the old 'It's going to hurt me more than it will hurt you'

2. Kiss a baby. Hope the parents take them straight to the hospital afterwards!

   If 1 and 2 don't work you're in the **** so you better.....

3. 'Do a Hawkie'. Get all emotional and blubber on TV, this will get the female vote and     half the male vote if you are decent looking.

   If 3 doesn't work YOU'RE F*CKED!

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...ar-float-says-pm/story-fn9ar0ql-1226094649448

This is actually making me ill now, she can't be that desperate to resort to this.


----------



## Wysiwyg

springhill said:


> This is actually making me ill now, she can't be that desperate to resort to this.



One could believe compassionate votes contributed to the result in our recent federal election. I did feel the desire to vote for Julia on the basis of giving her an opportunity being the first female Prime Minister.


Don't particularly think Abbot has what it takes either. Focusses on fault in most everything Labor supports when could be focussing on 'detailed policies'  his own party has to offer.


----------



## sails

springhill said:


> ...This is actually making me ill now, she can't be that desperate to resort to this.




Oh, poor diddems.  Putting on a little blubbery show while still steam rolling ahead with her tax isn't going to fool anyone.

If she really cares about Aussies, she would listen to the majority and wait just over fifty weeks to take her stupid tax to an election and let the people decide.

She would have an entire extra year to blubber and try and get Aussies on side.  Then, if the majority gave her a mandate, those of us who don't like it have to put up with it.

But when she is leading a fragile minority government, she really doesn't have a mandate to bring this tax in.  Blubbering is not going to help her.  She really doesn't seem cut out for this job.

That's like robbing your neighbour and then trying to get his sympathy because he doesn't like you any more...


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Again you surprise me, the carbon tax looks more like treasury tax reform by stealth than any thing to do with reducing carbon emissions to me.



At least you have abandoned it as a reasonable proposition for the latter.

As for tax reform, $4.3bn here, $3bn there, $10.8bn somewhere else, the export of $bn's overseas when it becomes a trading scheme and god only knows how much new bureaucracy to manage it. To this government, it's just someone else's Monopoly money with six extra zeros before the decimal point. 

EDIT: Make that 7 extra zeros.

More like tax waste to me.


----------



## sails

Wysiwyg said:


> ...Don't particularly think Abbot has what it takes either. Focusses on fault in most everything Labor supports when could be focussing on 'detailed policies'  his own party has to offer.




Yes, I wonder the same thing.  But to be realistic, has labor actually done anything than total stuff ups and then go on as if nothing is wrong?  What is there for Abbott to be positive about with this Gillard minority government?  Gillard comes across as very arrogant and seems to just keep "moving forward" to leave debacles in a trail behind her while seemingly pretending that everything is just hunky dory.  

I think Gillard is bringing all this negativity on herself.  It is like watching a bad train accident where the destruction just keeps getting worse.

And, I wonder if the coalition are holding back on policy.  Last time Abbott brought out a policy on welfare and, in something like a few days, Gillard announced her welfare package which was close to Abbotts with a few things changed.

So, I think the coalition could be justified if they are holding back due to Gillard's incompentence and trying to repackage coalition policies.

Abbott so far has done a pretty good job in getting the party to where it is now from the 2007 decimation.  But, how he will go as PM I'm not sure either.  Although he won't have to be very good to be much better than what we have now.  Scott Morrison could be contender down the track, imo.

At least the coalition are listening to the people and seem to have better consultative processes.  ALP seem to make decisions at the top and their MPs just have to wear it.


----------



## Wysiwyg

drsmith said:


> As for tax reform, $4.3bn here, $3bn there, $10.8bn somewhere else. To this government it's just Monopoly money with six extra zeros. More like tax waste to me.



Sorry for butting in but just noting the magnetism of societies toward insurmountable debt rather than surplus funds. Wondering where this ideology comes from. The yanks maybe.


----------



## drsmith

Wysiwyg said:


> Sorry for butting in but just noting the magnetism of societies toward insurmountable debt rather than surplus funds. Wondering where this ideology comes from. The yanks maybe.



Not specific to Australia, but for the western world, my thoughts are broadly that it's either to avoid the day of reckoning till someone else's watch and/or manage the real value of the debt through inflation. The latter would obviously turn the screws more slowly on living standards, provided it didn't get out of control.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Gillard says she is a shy person. So are most reptiles but they are still poisonous.







springhill said:


> 3. 'Do a Hawkie'. Get all emotional and blubber on TV, this will get the female vote and     half the male vote if you are decent looking.
> 
> If 3 doesn't work YOU'RE F*CKED!
> 
> http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...ar-float-says-pm/story-fn9ar0ql-1226094649448
> 
> This is actually making me ill now, she can't be that desperate to resort to this.



This little piece of play acting was reported on "PM" this evening and I felt quite sick.
Shy?  Lacking in confidence?  Give me a break!!
She is clearly desperate enough to be trying every trick the Labor machine can come up with.
Sadly for her, I doubt it will be any more convincing than the 'real Julia v fake Julia' exercise.

How did we come to this!  Such a travesty.




sails said:


> Scott Morrison could be contender down the track, imo.



Agree.  He comes across as very capable, articulate and able to answer questions with consummate skill.



> At least the coalition are listening to the people and seem to have better consultative processes.  ALP seem to make decisions at the top and their MPs just have to wear it.



True enough, but the Coalition could do with a bit of Labor policy in this regard when it comes to Malcolm Turnbull.  His continuing injections of poison demonstrate that he is absolutely not a team player and is determined to destabilise Tony Abbott's leadership if he can.
When asked a couple of days ago about his view of the Coalition's climate change policy, all he had to do was say that he had no comment as this is not his portfolio.
Instead he made it crystal clear he did not support the party's policy.
Tony Abbott should despatch him to the back bench without delay imo.



IFocus said:


> Again you surprise me, the carbon tax looks more like treasury tax reform by stealth than any thing to do with reducing carbon emissions to me.



Doubt it's any sort of genuine tax reform, but it's heartening to see that you are seeing the light about the validity of this plan re emissions.

Keep up the good thinking IF.  Always room for a convert over here on the dark side.


----------



## Wysiwyg

drsmith said:


> The latter would obviously turn the screws more slowly on living standards, provided it didn't get out of control.



Yes that makes sense but no doubting that first world countries could take a living 'standard' adjustment rather than living beyond average means; the scourge of ill-disciplined credit.


----------



## So_Cynical

IFocus said:


> Again you surprise me, the carbon tax looks more like treasury tax reform by stealth than any thing to do with reducing carbon emissions to me.




Funny cos that's what i thought too....the real news was the tax shuffle, the carbon simply inevitable given the 19 year lead up.


----------



## Julia

So_Cynical said:


> Funny cos that's what i thought too....the real news was the tax shuffle, the carbon simply inevitable given the 19 year lead up.



What do you think actually constitutes the 'tax shuffle'?


----------



## Wysiwyg

sails said:


> At least the coalition are listening to the people and seem to have better consultative processes.  ALP seem to make decisions at the top and their MPs just have to wear it.



An element of whooing the voters too. Abbot has developed a distinct John Howard accent which I find, to use waynel's oft quoted word, disingenuous.


----------



## DB008

sails said:


> ....has labor actually done anything than total stuff ups and then go on as if nothing is wrong?




I think that Trainspotter did a quick summary of the spending that the ALP has done so far. It's not pretty and what is worse, pretty much no results.



sails said:


> It is like watching a bad train accident where the destruction just keeps getting worse.




Yep, car crash in slow-mo, but that car represents out country.


----------



## springhill

CLIMATEGATE anyone?

http://antioligarch.wordpress.com/climate-fraud/


----------



## sptrawler

Just heard a classic on the midday news, Wayne Swan saying Tony is causing uncertainty, didn't know if I should post it here or in the joke thread.
How can they keep a straight face and say something like that. Maybe they should ring D.J's , Noni B or Cool and Cosy insulation and ask them who they think is causing uncertainty. LOL
What an absolute Richard Head.


----------



## springhill

sptrawler said:


> Just heard a classic on the midday news, Wayne Swan saying Tony is causing uncertainty, didn't know if I should post it here or in the joke thread.
> How can they keep a straight face and say something like that. Maybe they should ring D.J's , Noni B or Cool and Cosy insulation and ask them who they think is causing uncertainty. LOL
> What an absolute Richard Head.




Who the f*ck let Wayneker Swan into our state anyway? Should have been shoot on sight orders at the border.


----------



## drsmith

Carbon tax supporter John Hewson can now see the writing on the birthday cake.



> If the package and its marketing doesn't produce a reasonable reversal, and sustain it, a dumping of Gillard, and a jettisoning of the package is not out of the question.
> 
> Given that there could be a dozen or more such polls through to early next year, this process could make Chinese water torture look tame, by comparison.
> 
> I can't imagine it will be allowed to run its course.




http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2795538.html


----------



## Logique

With this poll, pricing carbon is one thing, but it's the ensuing tax that people are against. Lowest approval since Paul Keating. Not much joy in it for Malcolm Turnbull either. 

https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa...08y4Aw&usg=AFQjCNEx0TPsb1-HhrE8iOK_clGbzhXTEg

"Sky News
Labor registers worst Nielsen poll  - Monday July 18, 2011

Australians have turned on the Labor government and its carbon price package, according to the results of a Nielsen poll published in Fairfax newspapers.

If an election were held today, the government would be thrown out with its primary vote down to *26 per cent *- one percentage point lower than last month and the *lowest for a major party in the poll's 39-year history*.

Labor's two-party-preferred vote has fallen a further two points to 39 per cent, leaving it trailing the coalition by 22 points.

For the first time, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott is ahead of Ms Gillard as preferred prime minister, with an 11-point lead at 51 per cent (up five points) to 40 per cent (down 6 points).

Julia Gillard's approval rating as prime minister has dropped another three points to 34 per cent, and her disapproval rating has risen three to 62 per cent.

The same proportion - 56 per cent of the 1400 respondents - opposed a carbon price, said Ms Gillard had no mandate for her plan, and want an election before the plan is introduced.

The coalition's primary vote is up two points to 51 per cent, while the Greens' is down one point to 11 per cent.

Mr Abbott's approval rating as Opposition Leader edged up one point to 47 per cent while his disapproval rating went down two points to 48 per cent.

It is Ms Gillard's worst approval rating so far and the lowest for a prime minister since Paul Keating's 34 per cent in March 1995.

The poll was taken between Thursday and Saturday last week."


----------



## springhill

Filthy polluting Indos.
If Gillard had any shred of true conviction in what she is spruiking, she would calculate the price of the carbon emissions from this planet-destroying volcano, deduct it from our foreign aid to Indonesian and give it to the indonesian pensioners (cough cough) and the UN!
This is her plan here, so why not be regional sheriffs, and enforce our beliefs on others?

"We hoive a respoinsiboility toi the regioon and the planet, it's the right thiong toi doi."

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/181...no-erupted-volcano-erupted-2011-indonesia.htm


----------



## sptrawler

The latest opinion polls are not looking too healthy, if you take out the Labor party, Green and affiliated Indepedent members their staff and familly and friends votes. They must be under 20% LOL


----------



## joea

Hi.
For some reason I have thought Gillard does not understand what she is doing to our country.

I was made aware of this piece.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy,
it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."

---Winston Churchill----

joea


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> Hi.
> For some reason I have thought Gillard does not understand what she is doing to our country.
> 
> I was made aware of this piece.
> 
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
> the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy,
> it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
> 
> ---Winston Churchill----
> 
> joea




That pretty well sums up what is going on.


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Hi.
> For some reason I have thought Gillard does not understand what she is doing to our country.
> 
> I was made aware of this piece.
> 
> "Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
> the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy,
> it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
> 
> ---Winston Churchill----
> 
> joea




And the end result, NATIONALISE EVERY DAMN THING. Banks, mining, farming and manuafacturing. 
You own nothing. The state owns it all. Socialism is one step behund communism.


----------



## Logique

Hadn't heard of this before, should be interesting. Hey GetUp, don't worry, plenty of time for you to organize a bogus 'Truckers for the Carbon Tax' decoy group. Auntie will ensure they get coverage. 

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...lueprint_for_labors_next_leader/#commentsmore
By blogger: vivienne, Wed 20 Jul 11 

"I heard there is a *convoy of trucks heading for Canberra* for the *22nd August* early morning, they will be traveling on every major highway, coming from every major town and small ones as well. With a *vote of ‘no confidence’* in this Federal Government, everyone is welcome to join in, large trucks, small trucks, camper vans, caravans and cars, horse and pony carts as well. Sponsored by the NRFA *nrfa.com.au* 
Join in make history happen, throw this rotten Government out! Its our duty The People of Australia Unite."


----------



## sptrawler

That convoy idea sounds like a winner, if it has a huge turnout of caravans and campers it will epitomize Labors grass roots dissatisfaction.
The government has lost its direction completely. The only people that are going to loose jobs and struggle with higher energy costs are the very people they are supposed to be looking after.
How can the government reconcile giving a handout so you won't feel the extra cost of the carbon tax. When the pupose of the tax is to make energy ridiculously expensive to bring about change and make unviable alternatives attractive.
Also how many lawyers, accountants and "profesionals" work in factories, smelters, coal mines, power stations, car assembley plants where the real job losses are going to be felt.
This is the problem with Labor they have lost all credibiliy with the grass roots. They are all chardonnay socialists who really don't represent anyones interests other than their own. Thats why Bob Brown is having no trouble getting his own way because Labor stands for nothing so they may as well do as he says.
Like has been said on this forum before, the next election results will be record breaking.


----------



## IFocus

So_Cynical said:


> Funny cos that's what i thought too....the real news was the tax shuffle, the carbon simply inevitable given the 19 year lead up.





Meant to post this earlier proves Abbottliar alive and well



> Abbott might have had a point if he had been describing a personal tax rise. But Labor's plan, which trebles the tax-free threshold from $6000 to $18,200, does not increase the income tax paid by lower and middle-income earners. In fact it reduces it for everyone earning up to $80,000. Above that level, people are no worse off.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...m-a-worthy-start/story-e6frgd0x-1226095153467


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Just heard a classic on the midday news, Wayne Swan saying Tony is causing uncertainty, didn't know if I should post it here or in the joke thread.
> How can they keep a straight face and say something like that. Maybe they should ring D.J's , Noni B or Cool and Cosy insulation and ask them who they think is causing uncertainty. LOL
> What an absolute Richard Head.




Hi.
On the radio today  Gillard was saying at least Labor  has guts to implement the CARBON TAX.
Well when I look up "guts" in the dictionary I could not find any association of guts to stupidity.

joea


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Meant to post this earlier proves Abbottliar alive and well
> 
> Abbott might have had a point if he had been describing a personal tax rise. But Labor's plan, which trebles the tax-free threshold from $6000 to $18,200, does not increase the income tax paid by lower and middle-income earners. In fact it reduces it for everyone earning up to $80,000. Above that level, people are no worse off.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...m-a-worthy-start/story-e6frgd0x-1226095153467



What's old George been smoking ?

People would be worse off because they would be paying a new tax.

Also, the the free threshold is not $6k.  It's around $16k after taking into account the low income offset. Carbon tax and all, Labor fails to get rid of the low income offset.


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> Hi.
> On the radio today  Gillard was saying at least Labor  has guts to implement the CARBON TAX.
> Well when I look up "guts" in the dictionary I could not find any association of guts to stupidity.
> 
> joea



It's our guts though that is being pot on the line.

As a country, we were the ones who were stupid enough to give this lot another chance.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> What's old George been smoking ?
> 
> People would be worse off because they would be paying a new tax.
> 
> Also, the the free threshold is not $6k.  It's around $16k after taking into account the low income offset. Carbon tax and all, Labor fails to get rid of the low income offset.




DR, George is one of the few Jurno's that actually understands the numbers but I take your word I make no claims to understand the tax system.

Note Abbotts comments, exactly what is it he stands for..........


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> DR, George is one of the few Jurno's that actually understands the numbers but I take your word I make no claims to understand the tax system.



It's actually very simple.

1) A tax which targets one group and distributes the proceeds (net of waste) to another is wealth redistribution.

2) A tax which reduces our competitiveness globally is economic vandalism.

3) A commitment not to introduce such a tax during an election campaign and to then go back on that word is a lie. In this case, a supersized whopper with double beef, double cheese, extra large fries and a bucket of watered down Coke.

I hope that's not too indigestible.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> But Labor's plan, which trebles the tax-free threshold from $6000 to $18,200,



I'm so sick of seeing this utterly misleading statement.  The tax free threshold before this announcement was in fact around $16,000 because of the inclusion of the Low Income Tax Offset.

And the additional couple of thousand will be largely negated by the rise in tax rates.

To suggest the government has 'tripled the tax free threshold' is spurious and completely wrong.



drsmith said:


> As a country, we were the ones who were stupid enough to give this lot another chance.



Did we, though?  Didn't the Coalition get a slightly higher primary vote?
I don't believe this sort of self-flagellation is realistic.   If the decision-making Independents had not had their vendetta against the Nationals, the result would have been quite different.


----------



## sails

Do we really want to replace the Australian landscape with this?  The lack of trees (which help to reduce co2) makes this landscape quite stark.  I always thought Greenies were tree hugging people - but it's OK to chop down trees for windmills?


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I'm so sick of seeing this utterly misleading statement.  The tax free threshold before this announcement was in fact around $16,000 because of the inclusion of the Low Income Tax Offset.
> 
> And the additional couple of thousand will be largely negated by the rise in tax rates.
> 
> To suggest the government has 'tripled the tax free threshold' is spurious and completely wrong.
> 
> 
> Did we, though?  Didn't the Coalition get a slightly higher primary vote?
> I don't believe this sort of self-flagellation is realistic.   If the decision-making Independents had not had their vendetta against the Nationals, the result would have been quite different.




Yes, and if the Liberal and Labor parties had given each other the preferences instead of giving them to the Greens, a different situation may have arisen in both houses.
I doubt that will happen at next election. It will most likely leave the Greens up the creek without a paddle.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Yes, and if the Liberal and Labor parties had given each other the preferences instead of giving them to the Greens, a different situation may have arisen in both houses.
> I doubt that will happen at next election. It will most likely leave the Greens up the creek without a paddle.



I certainly hope so.


----------



## moXJO

Finally the labor knifing commences. 
Time to clear the house and start over.



> FORMER NSW premier Morris Iemma has become the most senior Labor figure to oppose Julia Gillard's carbon tax.
> 
> Mr Iemma says the carbon tax that forms federal Labor's platform for re-election in 2013 is environmentally marginal, economically costly and likely to lead Labor to a historic electoral train wreck.
> 
> "One thing is sure -- it won't change the world, but it could change the government," Mr Iemma told The Australian.
> 
> Mr Iemma accused the Gillard government of betraying the Hawke-Keating legacy of economic reform, instead embracing the environmental policies of the Greens' agenda.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/iemma-predicts-carbon-calamity/story-fn59niix-1226098657315


----------



## Logique

Hope so moXJO,
two more years of this facsimile of a government and, don't discount the possibility of social and civil unrest.

Miranda Devine writes for the Sydney _Daily Telegraph_, which along with _The Australian_ are  two _betes noire_ of the Greens, who'd like to 'regulate' them. Two great articles today from Miranda, see at:  http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/

She fires back at them, and she has their number alright: 







> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/
> Tasmanian incomes are in a hole because the Greens have stifled every productive industry for decades, from hydroelectric power to forestry. Now they are going to do to Australia what they did to Tasmania. This is why Gillard’s broken promise matters.



 and, 







> Yet, instead of accepting that robust [news] coverage is part and parcel of his [Bob Brown's] newfound influence, and the duty of a free press, he falls to the instinctive position of the despot. Shut down the opposition, muzzle public opinion and regulate, regulate, regulate.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> It's actually very simple.
> 
> 1) A tax which targets one group and distributes the proceeds (net of waste) to another is wealth redistribution.
> 
> 2) A tax which reduces our competitiveness globally is economic vandalism.
> 
> 3) A commitment not to introduce such a tax during an election campaign and to then go back on that word is a lie. In this case, a supersized whopper with double beef, double cheese, extra large fries and a bucket of watered down Coke.
> 
> I hope that's not too indigestible.




Thanks DR I will ignore in the same spirit as you have appeared to give.............


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Thanks DR I will ignore in the same spirit as you have appeared to give.............



Yes, whichever way you look at it, Labor's carbon tax whopper is just too difficult to digest.


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> It's actually very simple.
> 
> 1) A tax which targets one group and distributes the proceeds (net of waste) to another is wealth redistribution.
> 
> 2) A tax which reduces our competitiveness globally is economic vandalism.
> 
> 3) A commitment not to introduce such a tax during an election campaign and to then go back on that word is a lie. In this case, a supersized whopper with double beef, double cheese, extra large fries and a bucket of watered down Coke.
> 
> I hope that's not too indigestible.




You have summed it up with honesty and integrity.
And this is what Gillard lacks.
The Australian people are just not going to cop it.
joea


----------



## Julia

I saw the first of the Coal Assn's TV advertisements tonight.  Very stark and hard hitting.  Good on them.  I reckon this will strike a chord with way more Australians than the airy fairy stuff the government is putting out.


----------



## joea

Quote of the week.
This is an extract from Charles Aitken (Bell Potter Securities) report last week.

"We are involved in a giant self-inflicted policy wound on Australian equities. Every foreign investor I see believes Australian company management is excellent, but Australian political management is woeful.
As one Chinese investor said to me in Hong Kong last week. "Would you buy a stock where the CEO is Julia Gillard, CFO is Swan, independent directors are Wilkie, Windsor
and Oakeshott, and the executive is Bob Brown?"

The very best thing that could happen to Australian equity market is the removal of the incompetent, anti-business, income resistributing, Gillard/Independents Government. 

If it was a public company all of these people would be in front of a court "showing cause" as to why they should be in positions to damage the wealth of the corporation and failing on their duties and obligations.
joea


----------



## Logique

A fan of Charley's and heard that. 

He also said the ASX has underperformed, partly because of the carbon tax proposals, and the inference of sovereign risk from a government willing to shut down an export industry like live cattle at the stroke of a pen, on the basis of one Four Corners program.


----------



## Sdajii




----------



## drsmith

Sdajii said:


>



That image is missing Bob Brown's god like shadow over Julia Gillard.

During last year's election campaign, there was a Youtube campaign video. I forget what the title was, but it was along the lines of the economic wreck Australia would be in the future (2020 ?) and that generation apologising to the next for voting in labor in 2010. It mentioned Labor's alliance with the Greens, the carbon tax and power cuts and life after the current resources boom had passed. 

It was either posted here or on another forum. In light of how the present political situation is evolving, it would be good to see it again.


----------



## sptrawler

Just when Julia thought she had finished being done over by Bob Brown, Rob Oakeshott starts up. Gee it must be hard being everyones b**ch. LOL

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...py-rob-oakeshott/story-fn59niix-1226104584858


----------



## trainspotter

[Scene: A car yard. BRYAN is perusing the stock. He is approached by JOHN]

John: Morning! Looking for a new car?
Bryan: Nope. Prime Minister, actually.
John: You’re the third one this morning. Anything in mind?
Bryan: You know....... nothing fancy, reliable, economical family model. Something to get the country from A to B.
John: You mean like a Howard?
Bryan: Yeah....a little Johnny. Nothing flash, does the job. Low maintenance, economical, sensible. Runs for years, no troubles.
John: So.... you used to have one?
Bryan: Yeah. About 10 years. Great little model – don’t know why I got rid of him --biggest mistake I’ve ever made…
John: What happened?
Bryan: Traded him in for a Kevin 07.
John: Big mistake…
Bryan: Lot of people bought it. Good political mileage.
John: How was the Kevin 07?
Bryan: Came with a $900 factory rebate – that was good.
John: Anything else?
Bryan: Not much. Sounded nice but nothing under the bonnet. It was a lemon.
John: Didn’t stick around for long did it?
Bryan: Nah – had a factory recall. Shipped overseas and was never seen again.
John: What was the problem?
Bryan: Lots. But the final straw was the navigation system. Plug it in and it automatically loses its own way.
John: Whatcha got now?
Bryan: It’s a Gillard-Brown.
John: The hybrid?
Bryan: Yeah. The Eco-drive system – not a good idea. An engine that can’t deliver hooked up to a transmission stuck in permanent reverse…
John: Green paintwork with a red interior. And steering that always lurches to the left for no apparent reason – that’s the one?
Bryan: The Fustercluck model.
John: The only one they made, Bryan. Not the vehicle of choice for the road to recovery – but did they finish up fixing the navigation system?
Bryan: Made it worse. Turn it on and it does a press release, heads off in all directions and goes nowhere.
John: So that’s why you’re here?
Bryan: That’s right. I’m stuck with a government that's wasteful, expensive, ineffective and past its use by date.
Bryan: I don’t suppose you’ve eard of the “Cash for Clunkers” scheme?
John: Join the queue brother.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> Just when Julia thought she had finished being done over by Bob Brown, Rob Oakeshott starts up. Gee it must be hard being everyones b**ch. LOL
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...py-rob-oakeshott/story-fn59niix-1226104584858




Anyone who makes a deal with a slimy bottom feeder like Oakeshott can't complain if he rats on them. At the moment he has Gillard over a barrel as she needs his vote for the carbon tax.


----------



## Knobby22

trainspotter said:


> [Scene: A car yard. John: Whatcha got now?
> Bryan: It’s a Gillard-Brown.
> John: The hybrid?
> Bryan: Yeah. The Eco-drive system – not a good idea. An engine that can’t deliver hooked up to a transmission stuck in permanent reverse…
> John: Green paintwork with a red interior. And steering that always lurches to the left for no apparent reason – that’s the one?
> Bryan: The Fustercluck model.
> John: The only one they made, Bryan. Not the vehicle of choice for the road to recovery – but did they finish up fixing the navigation system?
> Bryan: Made it worse. Turn it on and it does a press release, heads off in all directions and goes nowhere.




I love Doyle and Clarke, they are so funny.


----------



## sptrawler

Classic trainspotter, a few of my mates are banging their heads against the wall for being sucked in by the "work choices" scare campaign and voting Labor.
They are now saying they will never vote Labor again, it really cracks me up, I give them heaps.LOL


----------



## DB008

+2
Classic TS!!!


ABC 7:30 Report;
John Clarke and Bryan Dawe present their satirical take on the week's events. (Updated Thursdays.)


----------



## matty77

sptrawler said:


> Classic trainspotter, a few of my mates are banging their heads against the wall for being sucked in by the "work choices" scare campaign and voting Labor.
> They are now saying they will never vote Labor again, it really cracks me up, I give them heaps.LOL




I am still struggling to find what was so wrong with all this work choices stuff? As far as I am concerned nothing has changed, nudda, zip, nothing. And it was just a big storm in a tea cup.


----------



## sails

matty77 said:


> I am still struggling to find what was so wrong with all this work choices stuff? As far as I am concerned nothing has changed, nudda, zip, nothing. And it was just a big storm in a tea cup.





Yes, what have labor done to "fix" work choices?  I was speaking to someone around Christmas and found out they had to work on Christmas day for normal wages and this person was blaming Howard's WC.

It appears labor haven't done anything much to fix it?  So is work choices is another labor lie?


----------



## noco

Our Prime Minister appears to walking on thin ice with the Indys rattling the sabre.

 How much longer can she last?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-and-just-govern/story-e6frgd0x-1226105541192


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Our Prime Minister appears to walking on thin ice with the Indys rattling the sabre.
> 
> How much longer can she last?
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-and-just-govern/story-e6frgd0x-1226105541192




It is becoming obvious that public feeling is so entrenched against this government, that there is no turning it around. The public is monitoring every move they make thereby highlighting any stuff ups.
The Independent members are in there, one would assume, to push their electorates cause. It is really hard to do that when you are voted out because you are aligned with the lunatic parties. Sooner or later self preservation has to come into it.
Actualy what might have sunk in with Wilkie and Oakeshott is how they were played on national t.v when the carbon tax was thrown into the public arena. They were set up like ducks in a shooting gallery, to be wrapped up with labor and the greens and making it difficult to distance themselves.


----------



## springhill

For God's sake someone please bring Johnny Howard and Peter Costello back, Gillard Swan and Co. are taking us down the US path quicker than i turn my head looking at hot chicks walking past.

Hey, Waynker Swan, heard of what happened in the US when you continually raise the debt ceiling?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...g-limit-to-250bn/story-fn59niix-1226054577545

This Carbon Tax wouldn't have anything to do with the outrageous debt we a rapidly burying ourselves under would it?


----------



## startrader

springhill said:


> For God's sake someone please bring Johnny Howard and Peter Costello back, Gillard Swan and Co. are taking us down the US path quicker than i turn my head looking at hot chicks walking past.
> 
> Hey, Waynker Swan, heard of what happened in the US when you continually raise the debt ceiling?
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...g-limit-to-250bn/story-fn59niix-1226054577545
> 
> This Carbon Tax wouldn't have anything to do with the outrageous debt we a rapidly burying ourselves under would it?




This is outrageous stuff!  The average person in the street wouldn't have a clue that this is going on.  It's virtually never mentioned in the press and it should be - it's just appalling.  What gross mismanagement by this absolute disaster of a government.


----------



## trainspotter

Yeppers ..... I am so glad we are spiralling into debt similar fashion to the USA.


----------



## Logique

Yes very pertinent Springhill.  The national net debt has grown since. 

It has shot through $150Bill and now closing in on $200Bill. After inheriting a surplus of $27Bill from the Coalition, the Rudd/Gillard government is plunging the nation into debt at the rate of ~$110Bill per annum. 

This at a time of historically favourable terms of trade for our exports. And in a climate of unprecedented upheaval and uncertainty in world markets.


----------



## drsmith

The increase in Labor's 2PP support to 45% and probary vote to 32% last week looks like a dead cat bounce.

http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/

Gillard Labor is on its knees and a rate rise today could well impact like a stroke of the Malaysian cane on its fat butt.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> The increase in Labor's 2PP support to 45% and probary vote to 32% last week looks like a dead cat bounce.
> 
> http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/
> 
> Gillard Labor is on its knees and a rate rise today could well impact like a stroke of the Malaysian cane on its fat butt.





And Ihave noticed that Essential Media is usually about 2-3% in labor's favour than the professional pollsters such as Morgan, Galaxy, Newspoll, etc.


----------



## Calliope

Health Minister Nicola Roxon is not too bright. She reckons Gillard is a good negotiator. Julie Bishop puts her right. 



> Health Minister Nicola Roxon defended Labor's retreat from the more ambitious reforms by saying, ''The Prime Minister I think is one of the best negotiators in town.''
> The myth that the Prime Minister is a great ''negotiator'' is one aspect of Labor's efforts to shore up her leadership.
> This claim does not stand up to scrutiny.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs...-negotiator-20110802-1i9j5.html#ixzz1TwiUV2IA


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Health Minister Nicola Roxon is not too bright. She reckons Gillard is a good negotiator. Julie Bishop puts her right.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs...-negotiator-20110802-1i9j5.html#ixzz1TwiUV2IA





I initially thought that Gillard was a good negotiator when she took the indies to help her form government, but have since realised that she will simply negotiate (at taxpayer expense) whatever it takes to get the result she wants.

The Malaysian deal shows how far she will go and how much of a poor deal she will negotiate provided she gets her way.

I honestly think there should be an inquiry into how she and Swan have been spending and how much has been used for pork barelling (aka bribery) to get her own way.  Just how much have the indies benefited when she continually gets them to agree to whatever she wants even when it is clearly against the wishes of the majority of voters?   These questions need answers, imo.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> Health Minister Nicola Roxon is not too bright. She reckons Gillard is a good negotiator. Julie Bishop puts her right.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs...-negotiator-20110802-1i9j5.html#ixzz1TwiUV2IA




HAHA from the libs token female


----------



## sails

todster said:


> HAHA from the libs token female




I think Julie Bishop would do a better job at negotiating than Gillard.  The Malaysian deal puts Malaysia as the clear winner and shows that Gillard figuratively had grazed knees from grovelling.  Gillard was clearly desperate to put up such a terrible deal for Australia.  Haha indeed...  Sadly, not funny for Australia.


----------



## todster

sails said:


> I think Julie Bishop would do a better job at negotiating than Gillard.  The Malaysian deal puts Malaysia as the clear winner and shows that Gillard figuratively had grazed knees from grovelling.  Gillard was clearly desperate to put up such a terrible deal for Australia.  Haha indeed...  Sadly, not funny for Australia.




Saw her a couple of months back at the airport looked about 45 kilos wringin wet 4 foot six and a look of a bedazzled kangaroo in the high beam.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I initially thought that Gillard was a good negotiator when she took the indies to help her form government, but have since realised that she will simply negotiate (at taxpayer expense) whatever it takes to get the result she wants.
> 
> The Malaysian deal shows how far she will go and how much of a poor deal she will negotiate provided she gets her way.
> 
> I honestly think there should be an inquiry into how she and Swan have been spending and how much has been used for pork barelling (aka bribery) to get her own way.  Just how much have the indies benefited when she continually gets them to agree to whatever she wants even when it is clearly against the wishes of the majority of voters?   These questions need answers, imo.



Agree absolutely, sails.




todster said:


> Saw her a couple of months back at the airport looked about 45 kilos wringin wet 4 foot six and a look of a bedazzled kangaroo in the high beam.



If we were to really get into appearances of the two female politicians under discussion here, I don't think there'd be too much doubt about who is the more presentable, and further, who has the more attractive speaking voice.
But let's not do that.  It's not relevant to the competence or otherwise of either.


----------



## sptrawler

It's a shame one of the newspapers doesn't print springhills graphs on the front page.
That would put a cat among the pigeons.


----------



## Logique

todster said:


> HAHA from the libs token female



It's Labor that instigated the quota system. 

If only the Coalition had a talent like Tanya Plibersek. Such a well-rounded background and diverse life experience. Yes, this is the person to lead a balanced investigation into freedom of the press. 



> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...or_to_defend_our_own_free_press/#commentsmore
> How else would she [Plibersek] have turned out with her education and “employment” history?.
> Education:
> Master of Politics and Public Policy Macquarie University
> Bachelor of Arts (Communications) (Honours) University of Technology, Sydney
> 
> Employment
> NSW Ministry for the Status & Advancement of Women - Domestic Violence Unit
> Office of Senator Bruce Childs
> Women’s Officer, University of Technology
> HRT (Reply)
> Thu 04 Aug 11 (08:01am)


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> It's Labor that instigated the quota system.
> 
> If only the Coalition had a talent like Tanya Plibersek. Such a well-rounded background and diverse life experience. Yes, this is the person to lead a balanced investigation into freedom of the press.



And perhaps the reason for her remark on Q & A last week that unless Australia urgently adopted the carbon tax we wouldn't be able to feed ourselves.  Wow!  Nothing hysterical about that, huh!


----------



## Calliope

todster said:


> Saw her a couple of months back at the airport looked about 45 kilos wringin wet 4 foot six and a look of a bedazzled kangaroo in the high beam.




I dare say she would find you repellent too, toadster.


----------



## noco

If Mr.Thompson is convicted of fraud with the Health Service Union, could this be the linch pin for a Federal by-elction.
Thompson approved credit card payments for use with an Escort Agency. 


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...s/mp_thomson_approved_a_payment_to_a_brothel/


----------



## sptrawler

Now the World has finally woken up to the U.S money printing scam, there will be a major correction on the markets.
It will be funny to see Gillard and Swan trying to sell their carbon tax while we are tumbling into recession.
They will be looking for a rock to crawl under as unemployment rises and they can't keep hiding the real inflation figures.
A change of government is comming sooner rather than later, public opinion won't allow them to stay for 2 more years.


----------



## trainspotter

Pretty self explanatory really. I got the ranga 632 metres outta the room.

http://www.slapapollie.com/game/1/Gillard


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Now the World has finally woken up to the U.S money printing scam, there will be a major correction on the markets.
> It will be funny to see Gillard and Swan trying to sell their carbon tax while we are tumbling into recession.
> They will be looking for a rock to crawl under as unemployment rises and they can't keep hiding the real inflation figures.
> A change of government is comming sooner rather than later, public opinion won't allow them to stay for 2 more years.




I think Gillard and Co are planning to go quiet on it now and just bring it in quietly next year.  Clearly talking about it did no good.  I think she is hoping voters will forget what a miserable deal it is and, by hushing up media opinions and reports, it looks to me that she is hoping she can just get her tax legislated and all these rebellious voters will have to put up with it.  If so, that's dictator style and far removed from.

Time will tell, be we need to remain alert and do everything we can to stop her bringing in this tax at a time when it is clearly not economically responsible.  IMO, it's not responsible to force a tax which is based on deception and the AGW excuse is clearly not settled science.


----------



## startrader

sptrawler said:


> Now the World has finally woken up to the U.S money printing scam, there will be a major correction on the markets.
> It will be funny to see Gillard and Swan trying to sell their carbon tax while we are tumbling into recession.
> They will be looking for a rock to crawl under as unemployment rises and they can't keep hiding the real inflation figures.
> A change of government is comming sooner rather than later, public opinion won't allow them to stay for 2 more years.




Absolutely so true.  There is no way this government will see out two years - something will happen before then and we won't have to put up with them any more.  Can't wait!


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> I think Gillard and Co are planning to go quiet on it now and just bring it in quietly next year.  Clearly talking about it did no good.  I think she is hoping voters will forget what a miserable deal it is and, by hushing up media opinions and reports, it looks to me that she is hoping she can just get her tax legislated and all these rebellious voters will have to put up with it.  If so, that's dictator style and far removed from.
> 
> Time will tell, be we need to remain alert and do everything we can to stop her bringing in this tax at a time when it is clearly not economically responsible.  IMO, it's not responsible to force a tax which is based on deception and the AGW excuse is clearly not settled science.




After today's market downturn I feel a new stimulus package coming on. The best stimulus package would be to drop the carbon tax. At the very least it would raise  confidence.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> After today's market downturn I feel a new stimulus package coming on. The best stimulus package would be to drop the carbon tax. At the very least it would raise  confidence.




I hope their isn't another stimulus package, we couldn't survive another disaster like the last one. The best thing that could happen is for someone to tell Swan and Gillard to go sit in the corner and touch nothing. imo


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I hope their isn't another stimulus package, we couldn't survive another disaster like the last one. The best thing that could happen is for someone to tell Swan and Gillard to go sit in the corner and touch nothing. imo



 Well put.  Agree absolutely.
Unless they announce the scrapping of the carbon tax.


----------



## wayneL

trainspotter said:


> Pretty self explanatory really. I got the ranga 632 metres outta the room.
> 
> http://www.slapapollie.com/game/1/Gillard




Hahaha

I was trying to slap that conniving KRudd too, wouldn't work. I also think there should be a 'blow Wayne Swine's head off with a shotgun' functionality

The website code needs work, but I had fun nevertheless.


----------



## samanne1

wayneL said:


> Hahaha
> 
> I was trying to slap that conniving KRudd too, wouldn't work. I also think there should be a 'blow Wayne Swine's head off with a shotgun' functionality
> 
> The website code needs work, but I had fun nevertheless.




Had a go also... but i only slapped her 570m 

dunno how the others got it over 1000m


----------



## -Bevo-

I got 680m after awhile interesting that so far Gillard has 3,402,136 slaps... so far and Abbott just 365,353.

Wish she was saying "there be no carbon tax under government I lead" sure I could slap her over 1000 then.


----------



## drsmith

655m was my best effort.

Upon return, I actually found it quiet pleasurable to just repeat the dose before she got a word in.

What about Bob Brown ?
He needs a good slap to the dark side of the moon.


----------



## IFocus

springhill said:


> For God's sake someone please bring Johnny Howard and Peter Costello back, Gillard Swan and Co. are taking us down the US path quicker than i turn my head looking at hot chicks walking past.
> 
> Hey, Waynker Swan, heard of what happened in the US when you continually raise the debt ceiling?
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...g-limit-to-250bn/story-fn59niix-1226054577545
> 
> This Carbon Tax wouldn't have anything to do with the outrageous debt we a rapidly burying ourselves under would it?





Excellent any assets left to sell off like Howard did TLS etc to balance the budgets?


BTW how did that TLS thing work out for the average punter?


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Excellent any assets left to sell off like Howard did TLS etc to balance the budgets?
> 
> 
> BTW how did that TLS thing work out for the average punter?




Actually IFocus I remember it well, when the first lot of shares in Telstra were floated. The Labor party in opposition jumped up and down that they were sold off too cheap and Liberals were helping their rich mates.
Just shows the Labor party were as thick then as they are now, luckily we won't have to suffer them another term.


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Excellent any assets left to sell off like Howard did TLS etc to balance the budgets?
> 
> 
> BTW how did that TLS thing work out for the average punter?




IFocus, if you do your homework, I think you will find Howard sold off TLS to help pay for Labor's $90 billion bad debt they left behind 1997.

The bad smell of Labor's mismanagement of the ecomomy over historical times  still lingers on.


----------



## springhill

IFocus said:


> Excellent any assets left to sell off like Howard did TLS etc to balance the budgets?
> 
> 
> BTW how did that TLS thing work out for the average punter?






noco said:


> IFocus, if you do your homework, I think you will find Howard sold off TLS to help pay for Labor's $90 billion bad debt they left behind 1997.
> 
> The bad smell of Labor's mismanagement of the ecomomy over historical times  still lingers on.




Spot on noco. Summed up to a tee.
I really don't think you want to go into the debt Labor left us in, in the early 90's IFocus


----------



## trainspotter

LOL IFocus ..... you really are clutching at straws old chum. It was Labor that started the rot by privatising Qantas/Australian Airlines and the Commonwealth Bank. During the 1990s the federal government sold 24 airports, rail infrastructure, land, buildings, financial institutions, the Commonwealth Uranium Stockpile and a range of research bodies. Who was in power from 1983 until 1996? LABOR WAS !

Telstra first third was sold in 1997 By the Liberals to pay down debt leftover from the mismanagement of the previous governement.

Go and do some research before you stir the pot.


----------



## IFocus

trainspotter said:


> LOL IFocus ..... you really are clutching at straws old chum. It was Labor that started the rot by privatising Qantas/Australian Airlines and the Commonwealth Bank. During the 1990s the federal government sold 24 airports, rail infrastructure, land, buildings, financial institutions, the Commonwealth Uranium Stockpile and a range of research bodies. Who was in power from 1983 until 1996? LABOR WAS !




Ah yes they were the days we had real politicians the punters did well out of those asset sales (any losers from CBA shares?) 

Unlike the later sham TLS sales that punters I know are still holding. Howard did this instead of raising taxes net out come was the same however.



> Telstra first third was sold in 1997 By the Liberals to pay down debt leftover from the mismanagement of the previous governement.




And the above assets you noted sold by Hawke / Keating Labor were to pay down the dept left by the Liberal / Nationals wasn't Howard treasurer then? .......how could you forget LOL having been around the block on this one before I think.



> Go and do some research before you stir the pot.




Thought I would just give the cheer squad a poke with some balanced facts for a change


----------



## trainspotter

And who is running up the debt now IFocus?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

http://www.debtclock.com.au/


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> Now the World has finally woken up to the U.S money printing scam, there will be a major correction on the markets.
> It will be funny to see Gillard and Swan trying to sell their carbon tax while we are tumbling into recession.
> They will be looking for a rock to crawl under as unemployment rises and they can't keep hiding the real inflation figures.
> *A change of government is comming sooner rather than later, public opinion won't allow them to stay for 2 more years.*




Great post, and, 'We can only hope...'


----------



## IFocus

trainspotter said:


> And who is running up the debt now IFocus?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
> 
> http://www.debtclock.com.au/




No argument here TS the stimulus ran to long the real threat is a government Labor or Coalition being gun shy to run it out again should GFC 2 appear............


BTW stimulus is a net drag on the economy and can only be a stop gap.


----------



## noco

Another brain storm bubble thought. Bullet trains between Brisbane and Melbourne.

Errr maybe it's a distraction from JU-LIAR's carbon (dioxide) tax. 

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/train_wreck/


----------



## DB008

^Good pick up there noco. Current Gov trying to distract from the Carbon Tax.



> By my back of the envelope, there’s the numbers on the Very Foolish Train:
> 
> $100bn @ 10% WACC means it needs to earn $10bn p.a. profit to be commercial.
> 
> @ a very generous $50 gross EBIT margin per passenger (after wages, depreciation, electricity or whatever it runs on): By my count there need to be 200 million journeys a year to generate $10bn EBIT, or 550,000 every day incl Xmas and Easter. This is more than half the patronage of the ENTIRE Sydney Cityrail network with their 1500 carriages!
> 
> Even if operating costs were zero because the stupid thing was unmanned, immortal and ran on solar and cost of capital was cut to 5% that’s still about 100,000 journeys a day to be viable. I don’t know how many Brisbanites commute daily, but a fair number of them would need to get jobs in Sydney. This is the single dumbest thing I’ve ever seen.




and this comment....



> Richard D replied to ant of yarra junction
> Sat 06 Aug 11 (07:26pm)
> I have used fast trains in Europe but like nearly all train services they are very heavily subsidised.
> The German government is backing away from very fast trains because they are too expensive (& Germany is rather densely populated). You know when the German government says something is too expensive, it is too expensive.
> 
> If something needs large subsidies to work in the market place then you know that the Cost/Benefit does not stake up.





Would l like a HSP in Oz? Maybe in the future.
Is now the time to even think about this? No.


----------



## bellenuit

DB008 said:


> and this comment....




I read a few weeks back, though I can't recall where, that only one of the HST services in China is making money. The rest are loss making. Considering the population densities in China, it would be hard to see how it could be viable in Australia,


----------



## sails

A new essential Media poll is out today with 2pp at 57% to coalition and 43% to labor.  Last week was 56:44 coalition:labor.

http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/


----------



## dutchie

sails said:


> A new essential Media poll is out today with 2pp at 57% to coalition and 43% to labor.  Last week was 56:44 coalition:labor.
> 
> http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/




Can't even make any headway while Tony is on hols.

She's going down with the ship!


----------



## joea

Well my guess is that Gillard will be gone by the end of the month.
If she is not, Labor will be a laughing stock.
I cannot see any reason for an election, so it will  be another leader.
Just remember that there is the convoy of trucks(if it goes ahead) to be negotiated yet.
joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Well my guess is that Gillard will be gone by the end of the month.
> If she is not, Labor will be a laughing stock.
> I cannot see any reason for an election, so it will  be another leader.
> Just remember that there is the convoy of trucks(if it goes ahead) to be negotiated yet.
> joea




I foresee the baby being thrown out with the bath water. Gillard and the carbon (dioxide tax) gone.
Another recent developement will be the pending court case against Labor MP Craig Thompson in October. 
Interesting days ahead.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Gillard and the carbon (dioxide tax) gone.



Which is the baby and which is the bath water ?

To me it just lools like bath water with a poo in it.


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Which is the baby and which is the bath water ?
> 
> To me it just lools like bath water with a poo in it.




Classic


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> I foresee the baby being thrown out with the bath water. Gillard and the carbon (dioxide tax) gone.
> Another recent developement will be the pending court case against Labor MP Craig Thompson in October.
> Interesting days ahead.



On "7.30" this evening Wayne Swan was asked if - in view of the global situation - the government would consider delaying the carbon tax.  He produced a response of the usual obfuscation, but did not actually say no, it wouldn't.

Chris Bowen is looking very shaky in the light of the court intervening in the transfer to Malaysia.  You'd surely imagine that before embarking on any such policy, the government would have done all the possible legal testing of any challenges that could jeopardise its plans.
Apparently not.  Again.


----------



## trainspotter

*SWAN HAS NOT GOT A CLUE*



> TREASURER Wayne Swan concedes China's economic growth may be about to lag, but says Australia - and the region - is on a solid footing.
> 
> There are rising fears about a second global financial crisis given the shaky finances of the US and some economies in Europe.
> 
> Mr Swan conceded that if China stumbles as a result, Australia could well follow suit.
> 
> "There's no doubt if China slows, it will have an impact in the region," he told ABC Television today.
> 
> *"It's a possibility."*
> 
> "But there are dynamics in the economy which relate to population growth, which relate to productivity improvement, which mean they can continue to grow.




Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...an/story-e6frfku0-1226111220084#ixzz1URCjnNA9

Population growth relates to productivity improvement? HUH ??? Surely by having higher population growth means you would have higher unemployment cause when China stops buying our minerals the mining companies will lay off staff and unemployment will increase. Unemployment increasing means that consumer confidence is down and more people get laid of in other sectors as the velocity of money slows to a crawl. Our economy begins to lag and by having more people here somehow this is a good thing?? Increased unemployment means more government handouts and less revenue either from GST or income taxes or mining royalties as no one is WORKING. Is he for real???

DOES THIS MAN HAVE ANY IDEA AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE REAL WORLD???


----------



## sails

I know this video is a couple of years old, but I don't think Swan has improved with age:


----------



## starwars_guy456

Julia said:


> On "7.30" this evening Wayne Swan was asked if - in view of the global situation - the government would consider delaying the carbon tax.  He produced a response of the usual obfuscation, but did not actually say no, it wouldn't.
> 
> Chris Bowen is looking very shaky in the light of the court intervening in the transfer to Malaysia.  You'd surely imagine that before embarking on any such policy, the government would have done all the possible legal testing of any challenges that could jeopardise its plans.
> Apparently not.  Again.




Fair go, Julia. I'm sure the Department of Immigration would have sought legal advice from the Australian Government Solicitor or somesuch prior to presenting its advice to the Minister.

The Minister might also have ignored Departmental advice and went ahead with the scheme nonetheless, for political reasons.


----------



## sptrawler

starwars_guy456 said:


> Fair go, Julia. I'm sure the Department of Immigration would have sought legal advice from the Australian Government Solicitor or somesuch prior to presenting its advice to the Minister.
> 
> The Minister might also have ignored Departmental advice and went ahead with the scheme nonetheless, for political reasons.




What this government ask advice, that would be a whole new experience for them. Haven't you heard of the "kitchen cabinet", that is what they call the chosen few that make all the decisions.
If this government listened and took advice they wouldn't be in half the s#!t they are in already.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Last night on QandA, Labor Party insider Graham Richardson (ex-power broker of the Hawke & Keating eras) stated categorically that Labor WILL lose the next election. Without a doubt.

Good onya for having the guts to spill that Richo....


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> On "7.30" this evening Wayne Swan was asked if - in view of the global situation - the government would consider delaying the carbon tax.  He produced a response of the usual obfuscation, but did not actually say no, it wouldn't.
> 
> Chris Bowen is looking very shaky in the light of the court intervening in the transfer to Malaysia.  You'd surely imagine that before embarking on any such policy, the government would have done all the possible legal testing of any challenges that could jeopardise its plans.
> Apparently not.  Again.




Well Julia, it just goes to show how inefficient this Green/Labor socialist government has turned out to be.
They just do not think ahead of the consequences of their bad planning.
I still believe we could see a general election before Xmas, particularly in light of the pending court case against Craig Thompson. If he is convicted, it will be"good night nurse" for this inept government.


----------



## noco

Aussiejeff said:


> Last night on QandA, Labor Party insider Graham Richardson (ex-power broker of the Hawke & Keating eras) stated categorically that Labor WILL lose the next election. Without a doubt.
> 
> Good onya for having the guts to spill that Richo....




Yes, and did you note how many times Tony Jones cut  Kelly O'Dwyer short from speaking when she was bringing out some home truths and allowed the Labor MP, (can't even think of his name), to ramble on without interuption.


----------



## noco

Just heard this joke and had to post it.

Gillard and Swan were travelling in the Air Force jet when

Swannie said to Juliar, "I could throw out the window $1000 in  $100 bills and keep  10 people happy".

Juliar said to Swannie, "I could throw $1000 out the window in $10 bills and keep 100 people happy". 

One pilot said to the other,"why don't we throw both these twits out the window and keep the majority of 23 million people  happy".


----------



## noco

noco said:


> Well Julia, it just goes to show how inefficient this Green/Labor socialist government has turned out to be.
> They just do not think ahead of the consequences of their bad planning.
> I still believe we could see a general election before Xmas, particularly in light of the pending court case against Craig Thompson. If he is convicted, it will be"good night nurse" for this inept government.




Here is some up to date news on Craig Tompson. The QHS union is very peeved about the situation.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...homson_quits_the_government_will_likely_fall/


----------



## sails

noco said:


> Here is some up to date news on Craig Tompson. The QHS union is very peeved about the situation.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...homson_quits_the_government_will_likely_fall/




What amazes me is why would Thompson give his credit card to someone else?  Surely that in itself is highly irresponsible?


----------



## noco

sails said:


> What amazes me is why would Thompson give his credit card to someone else?  Surely that in itself is highly irresponsible?




I think he is trying stay out of the clanger.


----------



## dutchie

One thing you can say about this government -they are extremely consistent!


----------



## drsmith

Anyone with half a brain knew it was fiction, but now the rest know as well.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-it-an-objective/story-fn59nsif-1226113166259


----------



## noco

I started watching Juliar Gillard address an audience of about 100 undecided voters in PERTH. I switched off, because it was impossible to understand the crap that was coming out of her mouth. From the expression on the faces of those who asked the questions, they did not appear to be convinced.  I don't no whether she was able to convert any of her audience or not. Will be interesting to see the result at the end.


----------



## drsmith

Those so-called 100 undecided voters must be those with less than 1/2 a brain,

or Green.


----------



## Logique

True Dr Zacchary.

And what a magnificent response to global market instability - to introduce two additional taxes on industry (and thus eventually the people), a mining tax and a carbon tax. 

Yes a firm hand on the tiller there. 

But wait, we're not talking carbon tax any more. Send Jenny Macklin out with a social programs announcement - to be funded in 7 years time. Relief headline, and of course wall-to-wall coverage by the adoring ABC. Ahh that's better. It's so easy when you're of the Left.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> But wait, we're not talking carbon tax any more.



They won't admit it, but they,ve realised it's toxic.


----------



## joea

Obviously the Gillard government sent the census form out.
I did mine online but got it sent back.
In response to question: "Do you have  any dependants?"
I replied - "2 milliom illegal immigrants,
I million crack heads,
I million unemployable people,
half a  million people in over 100 prisons,
half of Afghanistan and
535 politicans in Canberra.
They said this was not an acceptable answer.
Gee its hard to get anything correct for this government.
joea


----------



## sptrawler

I just love how Gillard and Brown are now saying " How are you going to get rid of the $70Billion hole if you don't bring in our new taxes".
The $70Billion hole they caused, what absolute idiots. The only thing sillier is anybody who would vote for these fools. 
lets introduce taxes that cost jobs, to fill a budget hole that we caused by wasting billions of dollars. 
Obviously there is no soul searching going on.


----------



## sptrawler

Actually to sum it up, the only way we can get out of the S#!t we have caused is to tax the crap out of someone. 

Starcraftmazter will probably be able to come up with some obscure answer to this, that helps reduce carbon and reduce boat people while supplying endless free electricity, isn't he just brilliant. 
Bless him and give him a parachute for the next Labor recruitment, move over Peter Garret make way for the new generation.LOL


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I just love how Gillard and Brown are now saying " How are you going to get rid of the $70Billion hole if you don't bring in our new taxes".
> The $70Billion hole they caused, what absolute idiots. The only thing sillier is anybody who would vote for these fools.
> lets introduce taxes that cost jobs, to fill a budget hole that we caused by wasting billions of dollars.



Nevertheless the government is being quick to capitalise on the idea that it will cost $70 billion in taxpayer funds to rescind the two taxes.  This is a great deal of money for a political principle on both sides.

Didn't Labor say they would rescind the GST if they became the government?

Once all the legislation is passed and it's all up and running, I suspect there would be as much electorate fury at spending such a huge amount to dismantle it as there would for keeping it in place.

Tony Abbott has painted himself into a corner on this.

People feel strongly about the carbon tax.  I don't believe they feel as strongly about the mining tax, and in reality, if it were to come down to taxing the big miners a bit more and cutting education and health e.g., I don't think the electorate would have to think too hard about their preference.

Antony Green was on "PM" this evening saying that Tony Abbott's blithe assertion that he'd go to a double dissolution election on this was being rather naive about all the constitutional conditions that would have to be achieved before this could happen.  Sounds right.  Mr Abbott has a considerable capacity to ramp up the rhetoric without first being quite sure about the legislative/constitutional situation.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Nevertheless the government is being quick to capitalise on the idea that it will cost $70 billion in taxpayer funds to rescind the two taxes.



It wouldn't cost $X billions at all.

It would leave it in the pockets of taxpayers.

People arn't that silly.



Julia said:


> Tony Abbott has painted himself into a corner on this.



He can hardly agree with these taxes and define a point of difference.

Again, people arn't that silly.


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> I just love how Gillard and Brown are now saying " How are you going to get rid of the $70Billion hole if you don't bring in our new taxes".
> The $70Billion hole they caused, what absolute idiots. The only thing sillier is anybody who would vote for these fools.
> lets introduce taxes that cost jobs, to fill a budget hole that we caused by wasting billions of dollars.
> Obviously there is no soul searching going on.




SPOT ON! Try tell that to people my age (30)....they are not interested and don't give a s**t about politics.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Nevertheless the government is being quick to capitalise on the idea that it will cost $70 billion in taxpayer funds to rescind the two taxes.  This is a great deal of money for a political principle on both sides.
> 
> Didn't Labor say they would rescind the GST if they became the government?
> 
> Once all the legislation is passed and it's all up and running, I suspect there would be as much electorate fury at spending such a huge amount to dismantle it as there would for keeping it in place.
> 
> Tony Abbott has painted himself into a corner on this.
> 
> People feel strongly about the carbon tax.  I don't believe they feel as strongly about the mining tax, and in reality, if it were to come down to taxing the big miners a bit more and cutting education and health e.g., I don't think the electorate would have to think too hard about their preference.
> 
> Antony Green was on "PM" this evening saying that Tony Abbott's blithe assertion that he'd go to a double dissolution election on this was being rather naive about all the constitutional conditions that would have to be achieved before this could happen.  Sounds right.  Mr Abbott has a considerable capacity to ramp up the rhetoric without first being quite sure about the legislative/constitutional situation.




I agree completely but the government are trying to get a free hit on this. The fact remains they are saying there is a huge hole if the taxes aren't implemented, not that it is important to cut emissions .
It is a huge opportunity for the opposition to show it is a tax grab and nothing to do with reducing emmisions.
I agree there should be increased taxes on minerals, I don't agree there should be tax imposts on manufacturing. 
Also there is definitely a better way to go to a greener future than the carbon tax, it is 10-20 years premature.
Well doesn't this government ramp up the rhetoric without first being sure about its legal footing, eg the 13 asylum seekers that are still waiting a seat to Malaysia,LOL


----------



## Julia

"Counterpoint" from Radio National is especially good this week, with Patrick Cooke delivering his usual sharply satirical commentary.

Then an excellent analysis of the government's carbon tax advertising.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> SPOT ON! Try tell that to people my age (30)....they are not interested and don't give a s**t about politics.




Dannyboy.
Your comment is quite interesting.
I have been to a couple of gatherings lately, and have asked that age group(23 -30)
what they think of the Government. 
A blank look appears on their face. They are more interested in having a good time, texting etc.
While money is coming in to afford their  leisure activities, they are just not interested in how the country is being run.
joea


----------



## spooly74

A fine rant from a bloke called Gary on 5AA the other day.

http://www.fiveaa.com.au/audio_gary-tells-the-government-how-it-is_102558


----------



## wayneL

WOW what a rant.

He seemed to be more aggrieved by the SA gu'mint though?

I thought SA was La Dolce Vita.


----------



## Logique

I see Parliament is back. 

The mute button destined for another workout. Especially on the rouge Usurper and Gregory Ivan.

Roll on the 22nd and the 'carban' rally (no spell checker on that computer).


----------



## startrader

spooly74 said:


> A fine rant from a bloke called Gary on 5AA the other day.
> 
> http://www.fiveaa.com.au/audio_gary-tells-the-government-how-it-is_102558




Thank you for posting this.  It's well worth a listen.


----------



## Calliope

startrader said:


> Thank you for posting this.  It's well worth a listen.




He's not entitled to whinge. He voted Labor.


----------



## drsmith

Is this train wreck about to come off the rails ?

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ter-over-credit-card-rort-20110817-1ixui.html


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Is this train wreck about to come off the rails ?
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ter-over-credit-card-rort-20110817-1ixui.html



\

Ha Doc, this Green/Labor socialist left wing government are sure desperate to stay in power. Apart from the fact Thompson used his credit card for escort services, he has accepted union money paid for out of union members fees. I wonder how the members feel about this misappropriation of funds to pay for his legal costs for a defamation case of which he did not proceed.

I was about to post a similar link fron the Australian.

Can Gillard save his skin? Just have to wait for the court results in October


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> \
> 
> Ha Doc, this Green/Labor socialist left wing government are sure desperate to stay in power. Apart from the fact Thompson used his credit card for escort services, he has accepted union money paid for out of union members fees. I wonder how the members feel about this misappropriation of funds to pay for his legal costs for a defamation case of which he did not proceed.
> 
> I was about to post a similar link fron the Australian.
> 
> Can Gillard save his skin? Just have to wait for the court results in October




This is going to turn nasty.LOL


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> This is going to turn nasty.LOL




Here is a bit more on Labor's bail out of Thompson to stop him going bankrupt. Who really did paid for it?


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-bailout-scandal/story-e6freooo-1226116997143


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Is this train wreck about to come off the rails ?
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ter-over-credit-card-rort-20110817-1ixui.html



Snug in the luvvies cocoon, they seem to think they can get away with anything. 







> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...ter-over-credit-card-rort-20110817-1ixui.html
> .."Is the prime minister satisfied that it is proper for the Australian Labor Party to contribute some $90,000 towards the member's private defamation action against Fairfax," he told the chamber.
> 
> Senator Brandis said Mr Thomson abandoned the court action shortly after the court compelled the disclosure of his credit card and telephone records.
> 
> How can she possibly continue to assert that he is doing, in her words, "a fine job"?..


----------



## dutchie

If nothing else this government brings comic relief.

Nearly every day I am kept amused by the utterances and deeds of this joke of a government.

(pity the entry fee to this comedy act is so high and still climbing)


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> Here is a bit more on Labor's bail out of Thompson to stop him going bankrupt. Who really did paid for it?




How many more ways can Abbott come up with to make himself look foolish?



> TONY Abbott says Labor MP Craig Thomson is being protected by a "desperate" Julia Gillard,* but has refused to say if he would sack one of his own MPs in similar circumstances.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...cies-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226117309830


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> How many more ways can Abbott come up with to make himself look foolish?



I don't understand why he does not focus his response to such questions on the fact that it's currently Labor in the hot seat on this.


----------



## noco

Here is a good reason why Thompson withdrew his defamation case. He feared the truth would expose him. No wonder Gillard was keen to bail him out.



http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...sons-legal-bills/story-e6frea8c-1226116381753


----------



## finnsk

I can`t believe that anybody with commonwealth credit card, can get away with, using it on personal use.


----------



## sptrawler

It must depend on how important you are?


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Here is a good reason why Thompson withdrew his defamation case. He feared the truth would expose him. No wonder Gillard was keen to bail him out.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...sons-legal-bills/story-e6frea8c-1226116381753




Well noco, he is going to have trouble saying someone else rang the brothel, that is unless it was the same person who forged his name and stole his card.LOL
http://www.smh.com.au/national/mp-link-to-escort-calls-20110818-1j0az.html


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Well noco, he is going to have trouble saying someone else rang the brothel, that is unless it was the same person who forged his name and stole his card.LOL
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/mp-link-to-escort-calls-20110818-1j0az.html




I think Thompson is going to find himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle,

Maybe an election before Xmas and the end of the carbon (dioxide)tax.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ep-up-on-gillard/story-e6frezz0-1226117666780


----------



## joea

Hopefully the truth will be revealed in the Thompson saga!

To change the subject slightly ...5 great sentences.

1 You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2 What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3 The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4 When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care for them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of a nation.

and one from Maggie Thatcher.

Socialism fails when it runs out of other people's money....!!!!!!!!

Well I say Julia Gillard your time is up.
joea


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> Hopefully the truth will be revealed in the Thompson saga!
> 
> To change the subject slightly ...5 great sentences.
> 
> 1 You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
> 2 What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
> 3 The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
> 4 When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care for them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of a nation.
> 
> and one from Maggie Thatcher.
> 
> Socialism fails when it runs out of other people's money....!!!!!!!!
> 
> Well I say Julia Gillard your time is up.
> joea




Good one joea, hopefully people get to vote on how great this government is.LOL


----------



## Logique

joea said:


> Hopefully the truth will be revealed in the Thompson saga!
> 
> To change the subject slightly ...5 great sentences.
> 
> 1 You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
> 2 What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
> 3 The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
> 4 When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care for them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of a nation.
> 
> and one from Maggie Thatcher. Socialism fails when it runs out of other people's money....!!!!!!!!



Well said Joea!


----------



## wayneL

joea said:


> Hopefully the truth will be revealed in the Thompson saga!
> 
> To change the subject slightly ...5 great sentences.
> 
> 1 You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
> 2 What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
> 3 The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
> 4 When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care for them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of a nation.
> 
> and one from Maggie Thatcher.
> 
> Socialism fails when it runs out of other people's money....!!!!!!!!
> 
> Well I say Julia Gillard your time is up.
> joea




Very much like this passage usually attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but actually created by the Rev. William J. H. Boetcker, who lectured around the United States about industrial relations at the turn of the twentieth century. 

You cannot bring prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
You cannot further brotherhood of men by inciting class hatred.
You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.


----------



## Knobby22

Clark and Dawe have done it again - very funny.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3296985.htm


----------



## noco

noco said:


> I think Thompson is going to find himself up the proverbial creek without a paddle,
> 
> Maybe an election before Xmas and the end of the carbon (dioxide)tax.
> 
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ep-up-on-gillard/story-e6frezz0-1226117666780




Why are they "pussy footing" around with this Thompson. Why arn't the police investigating him for fraud. There appears to be plenty of evidence.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rs-craig-thomson/story-fn59niix-1226117739077


----------



## joea

Knobby22 said:


> Clark and Dawe have done it again - very funny.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3296985.htm




Knobby22
Yeah, these guys certainly bring out a chuckle.
Maybe we are all a bit uptight, just have to chill out a bit .

Well I generally watch these two with half a glass of red and enjoy both, the wine and the performance.
joea


----------



## Knobby22

joea said:


> Knobby22
> Yeah, these guys certainly bring out a chuckle.
> Maybe we are all a bit uptight, just have to chill out a bit .
> 
> Well I generally watch these two with half a glass of red and enjoy both, the wine and the performance.
> joea




Yea, I love a red, great idea


----------



## noco

As the Thomsom saga deepens, we could well go to an general election before Xmas. 

Bring it on!!!!!!!!!


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ensible-dealings/story-e6freooo-1226118454012


----------



## drsmith

Terry McCrann sums up the trade in international carbon credits well.

We essentially give our wealth away.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-modelling-shows/story-e6frg9k6-1226118430293


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> As the Thomsom saga deepens, we could well go to an general election before Xmas.
> 
> Bring it on!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ensible-dealings/story-e6freooo-1226118454012




Also it may give Wilkie a "get out of gaol card"

http://www.theage.com.au/national/wilkie-watching-craig-thomson-controversy-20110819-1j2hl.html


----------



## joea

Hi.
Dennis Shanahan is suggesting that Thompson could do "a reverse colston" by resigning from the ALP and sit on the crossbench as an independant and support the Labor Party.
Story in Australian.

I watched GILLARD on TV at the COAG, and I thought she was her "arrogant self" when she told Bligh, they would continue a conversation, not negotiations on the item list at COAG.
joea


----------



## drsmith

These independents do like making noises.

Andrew Wilkie, like the other Labor backing independents, will only jump the good ship ALP as the stern disappears below the water.


----------



## moXJO

noco said:


> As the Thomsom saga deepens, we could well go to an general election before Xmas.
> 
> Bring it on!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ensible-dealings/story-e6freooo-1226118454012




Don't get hopes up as he won't go.
Either he had to go  bankrupt, or be convicted of an offence punishable by a year or more in jail. It will be cleaned up to give him enough of a smack but not enough to throw him out


----------



## noco

moXJO said:


> Don't get hopes up as he won't go.
> Either he had to go  bankrupt, or be convicted of an offence punishable by a year or more in jail. It will be cleaned up to give him enough of a smack but not enough to throw him out




Hang on he had a splurge of $100,000. Where did it go? 

I know of a case where this individual misappropriated $140,000 and did 7 years in the clanger.

I should imagine he would have to account for $100,000, don't you agree?


----------



## Calliope

*Who is this mystery man patronising brothels and masquerading as Thomson?*






	

		
			
		

		
	
homson.


----------



## moXJO

noco said:


> Hang on he had a splurge of $100,000. Where did it go?
> 
> I know of a case where this individual misappropriated $140,000 and did 7 years in the clanger.
> 
> I should imagine he would have to account for $100,000, don't you agree?




Would love nothing more than for this government to get the boot. But have already seen how these things get swept under the carpet with no charges when it comes to politicians. Labor has a deep reach and influence and some of the best strategic worms to turn the dirt. 
 But there are other factors in play that could make it interesting. Thompson has sparked the ATO to look a little deeper in Union affairs and there will be some unhappy campers about to take the audit. So they won't exactly be cheering him on. Maybe more dirt will come to light.
Just another nail in the coffin in the long run, but maybe not in time to save us from a carbon tax.


----------



## noco

How can this bloke possibly escape investigation and scrutiny of misappropiation of HSU funds.
Why arn't the Health Service Union members asking questions about how their union fees are handled?

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ents/column_labor_chains_itself_to_a_carcase/

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ensible-dealings/story-e6freooo-1226118454012


----------



## joea

Well all I can say is Wayne Swan must be a "nutter".
He is pushing for people to switch banks.
"HELLO" wayne the banks do not give a " s**t " what you are trying to do.
When they first heard about it , they had a B-A-Q or drinks what ever, and decided that they just did not care.
They are making $billions of profit in the current economic climate.
They made billions in the past and will do so in the future.

I just do not "get" the bloke. He must have got his economic's degree in a friday night "chook" raffle when they run out of chooks.
joea


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> How can this bloke possibly escape investigation and scrutiny of misappropiation of HSU funds.
> Why arn't the Health Service Union members asking questions about how their union fees are handled?



Because it's not in their interests to do so.  They don't want to see the government lose power.  It needs a police investigation to avoid obvious bias.

What an idjit Thomson must be!  If he's going to use prostitutes surely to God he'd have the sense to put it on a personal credit card or, better yet, pay cash.

To think anyone is going to believe that someone purloined the Union credit card and also stole his driver's licence and forged his signature is simply stupid.

If Ms Gillard allows this to be swept under the carpet it will confirm her own shonky idea of ethics.  However, that is what we probably should all expect will happen.


----------



## nulla nulla

noco said:


> Hang on he had a splurge of $100,000. Where did it go? ?




No wonder he walks arround with a big grin on his face. One very satisfied customer. 



noco said:


> I know of a case where this individual misappropriated $140,000 and did 7 years in the clanger.




And the "Shauny Cash" perpertrator of the fraud "Trio Capital" only got two and a bit years for ripping off hundreds of millions. Do you get less time for having the imagination to think big?



noco said:


> I should imagine he would have to account for $100,000, don't you agree?




Maybe some-one is bailing him out with a short term loan until this governments term expires (which could be sooner rather than later).


----------



## medicowallet

Just read this online

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ed-craig-thomson/story-fn59niix-1226118497514

I had a laugh at this part

""I deal with Mr Thomson in his capacity as the member for Dobell representing that community and he does a good job," Ms Gillard said after the Council of Australian Governments meeting ended."

Ok I note how she said her relationship was on a purely "professional" level....

But, I thought, I wonder how Wayne Swan would reply to this type of question, I mean, if there was a fiver or a tenner involved, would he be able to resist??


----------



## Julia

Extract from article on Craig Thomson from "The Punch":



> Mr Thomson has denied the allegation of irregular spending - still the subject of an investigation by Fair Work Australia.






> With the federal government again under pressure to defend Mr Thomson, the Herald has learnt that Fair Work Australia paid $7092 for legal advice to shut down questioning by the opposition about the investigation into the Health Services Union's financial reporting.




How does this work?   Fair Work Australia are 'investigating' Mr Thomson, but they paid over $7000 to shut down questioning by the Opposition?????

Full article here:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/mp-link-to-escort-calls-20110818-1j0az.html


----------



## noco

More evidence has arisen on Craig Thomson for misappropiation of union funds. Surely this enough for a NSW police investigation.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...nion-credit-card/story-e6freooo-1226119218347


----------



## noco

Talk about wheels within wheels. Check out the link below of the connection through to Juliar Gillard. Relations and Labor mates.

I am feeling more pessimistic about this case. Thomson and Labor look like rigling out of any charges against this fellow.




http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...the_thomson_affair_the_cover_up_is_the_issue/


----------



## sptrawler

The more the government refuse to answer, the more they implicate themselves in a cover up. 
Misappropriation of funds ends up as theft one way or another, the more they try to hide doumentation, the more guilty they appear.
From the sound of the auditor it would appear there is a lot of questions to be answered regarding lost documentation.
No matter what happens it makes the government look bad by their backing of some very unsavory behaviour.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> The more the government refuse to answer, the more they implicate themselves in a cover up.
> Misappropriation of funds ends up as theft one way or another, the more they try to hide doumentation, the more guilty they appear.
> From the sound of the auditor it would appear there is a lot of questions to be answered regarding lost documentation.
> No matter what happens it makes the government look bad by their backing of some very unsavory behaviour.




Andrew Robb branded Thomson in parliament as a thief and a liar, but Juliar thinks he is her kind of guy. She may be right.



> Coalition frontbencher Andrew Robb last night told parliament the Government's support for Mr Thomson was "sickening".
> 
> "Look at the evidence that comes out ... that he has lied, that he is a thief, yet the prime minister stands up here daily and supports (him)," he said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...mson-allegations/story-fn3dxity-1226120316832


----------



## sptrawler

It will be interesting to see where it goes now, someone will have to carry the can.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/police-investigate-craig-thomson-20110823-1j7op.html


----------



## Julia

The Australian's version of this encouraging news:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...mp-craig-thomson/story-fn59niix-1226120407015


----------



## Logique

*Julia Gillard back to rock-bottom: Newspoll * 
Dennis Shanahan, Political editor From: The Australian August 23, 2011
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-bottom-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226120062361



> Labor's primary vote has dropped back to its lowest level on record of 27 per cent, with the Coalition unchanged on 47 per cent.




That is, worse than Rudd, and equal to Keating at his lowest. Where is the 'good government lost it's way' rhetoric now. This tragic all-consuming lust for power, can it conceivably bring the office any lower.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> That is, worse than Rudd, and equal to Keating at his lowest. Where is the 'good government lost it's way' rhetoric now. This tragic all-consuming lust for power, can it conceivably bring the office any lower.



It's even worse for Gillard Labor when one considers Tony Abbott's personal ratings also went backwards.

It's reached the point now that even when the Coalition lose, Labor can't win.


----------



## noco

Is it any wonder all Green/Labor MP'S TALK THE SAME LANGUAGE. 

They are brain washed like parrots. The link below spells out how Labor MP'S have to handle the media with well prepared lines.

Someone in Labor leaked it to the Australian.




http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/08/24/1226121/393586-talking-points.pdf


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> It's even worse for Gillard Labor when one considers Tony Abbott's personal ratings also went backwards.
> 
> It's reached the point now that even when the Coalition lose, Labor can't win.




Labor are gone....so what about the PM in waiting Abbott answering some questions.

We are going from the pot to the furnace........


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Labor are gone....so what about the PM in waiting Abbott answering some questions.



The priority at the moment is to clear the current stench from the seat of office.


----------



## drsmith

What did his former party do to Grahame Richardson ? 

He really sinks the boot in here.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...mp-craig-thomson/story-fn59niix-1226121827429


----------



## drsmith

It's only a small sample, but paints a telling picture if representative more broadly of Rob Oakshott's electorate.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/oakeshott_faces_wipeout/


----------



## nomore4s

IFocus said:


> Labor are gone....so what about the PM in waiting Abbott answering some questions.
> 
> We are going from the pot to the furnace........




Agree. Australian politics is in a sad state atm.

The government would have been better off coming out and taking a hardline stance on this and sacking Thompson straight off the bat. They may have lost the by-election and government but at least they would have the moral high ground and done the right thing. Now they have lost any chance of retaining office at the next election.

Julia Gillard is going to go down as our first female PM and probably our worst PM ever. Might set the female movement back decades:, has certainly set labor back decades.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Appearing more and more the P.M. is a spokesperson rather than decision maker. Got her by the short (long?) and curlies.


----------



## joea

Wysiwyg said:


> Appearing more and more the P.M. is a spokesperson rather than decision maker. Got her by the short (long?) and curlies.




You have got that 100% correct.
She believes that more exposure by her will revieve her low polls rating.
Sorry that will not happen.
No doubt that you would have realised that we are seeing less and less of her ministers.

This is the downfall of an egoistic  leader.

Julia would regain some of  her polls rating if she delegated more. However in doing so the Labor polls would decline.

So she is up the creek.

joea


----------



## joea

With breathless anticipation the crowd awaits the unveiling of the Julia Gillard Statue.
joea


----------



## Logique

Wysiwyg said:


> Appearing more and more the P.M. is a spokesperson rather than decision maker. Got her by the short (long?) and curlies.



Head on the hit nail Wysiwyg 

Make no mistake, a woman PM can be great for our country, especially when war beckons. It's just that the tawdry union officials (as distinct from the members), and (erkk!) Labor - well on executive capacity they're not supplying any Gail Kellys, if you know what I mean. 

And anyway, why should the genuinely talented women (as distinct from the boilersuited excuse-makers) take a pay cut anyway?


----------



## IFocus

nomore4s said:


> Agree. Australian politics is in a sad state atm.
> 
> The government would have been better off coming out and taking a hardline stance on this and sacking Thompson straight off the bat. They may have lost the by-election and government but at least they would have the moral high ground and done the right thing. Now they have lost any chance of retaining office at the next election.
> 
> Julia Gillard is going to go down as our first female PM and probably our worst PM ever. Might set the female movement back decades:, has certainly set labor back decades.




Graham Richardson captures the mood quite well in this article. 

"Craig Thomson is the PM's ticking time bomb"



> What really disappoints is Labor's apparent inability to talk to ordinary voters in a manner they understand. Talking to the far-flung suburbs of our great cities was easy for the likes of Bob Hawke, Paul Keating and, dare I say, Kevin Rudd (at least while he was campaigning to become prime minister).




Labors inability to get the basics right




> They just don't seem to get that in the aforementioned suburbs nobody feels that things are good. People look at rising costs of living and shake their heads. Electricity prices have rocketed up so fast that many small businesses and households find it difficult to keep up with the payments. Similarly every time they go to the butchers, or the fruit and vegetable shop or the supermarket, they shake their heads in dismay.




Interesting that he didn't mention Abbott being a tosser 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...icking-time-bomb/story-e6frgd0x-1226122396641


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Interesting that he didn't mention Abbott being a tosser




Because that would be the pot calling the kettle black. :


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Because that would be the pot calling the kettle black. :





Richo is pedigree NSW Right I always found him interesting but never a fan but in politics he was well known to stab you though the chest while looking one in the eye never through the back. 

However credibility would always be his stabbing block.


----------



## Logique

Very interesting article by Peter Van Onselen. And that hypothetical meeting with Sen Bob Brown would be worth the price of admission.

*Labor should take the risk and dump Gillard*  By Peter van Onselen, Contributing editor From: The Australian August 27, 2011  https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa...1u2nDA&usg=AFQjCNFVgz6PT8nDeTcuQro7TN4JEYa13A

"...If, however, Labor wishes to give itself a positive chance of improving its polling quagmire and exploiting the greatest weakness on the Coalition side - Tony Abbott's unpopularity - it must seriously consider replacing the deeply unpopular Gillard...

...Under such a scenario the new leader should be West Australian Stephen Smith. Rudd is a more popular figure and probably has more chance of winning the next election, but there is no way his Labor colleagues would have him back, certainly not now...

...Smith could declare that while he believes an emissions trading scheme is in the nation's best interests, he is going to take Abbott up on his idea of a plebiscite to determine the issue....Smith should tell Greens leader Bob Brown that if he doesn't like this course of action he should go ahead and force an early election, which would install Abbott in the prime ministership...

Talking to Liberals, they fear a change of leader exercised in the right way. Some of Abbott's closest supporters worry a fresh face would contrast with an unpopular Opposition Leader. They want Gillard as their opponent at the next election.

Why wouldn't they? She is the most unpopular Prime Minister in our history."


----------



## joea

Logique said:


> Very interesting article by Peter Van Onselen. And that hypothetical meeting with Sen Bob Brown would be worth the price of admission.
> 
> *Labor should take the risk and dump Gillard*  By Peter van Onselen, Contributing editor From: The Australian August 27, 2011  https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa...1u2nDA&usg=AFQjCNFVgz6PT8nDeTcuQro7TN4JEYa13A
> 
> "...If, however, Labor wishes to give itself a positive chance of improving its polling quagmire and exploiting the greatest weakness on the Coalition side - Tony Abbott's unpopularity - it must seriously consider replacing the deeply unpopular Gillard...
> 
> ...Under such a scenario the new leader should be West Australian Stephen Smith. Rudd is a more popular figure and probably has more chance of winning the next election, but there is no way his Labor colleagues would have him back, certainly not now...
> 
> ...Smith could declare that while he believes an emissions trading scheme is in the nation's best interests, he is going to take Abbott up on his idea of a plebiscite to determine the issue....Smith should tell Greens leader Bob Brown that if he doesn't like this course of action he should go ahead and force an early election, which would install Abbott in the prime ministership...
> 
> Talking to Liberals, they fear a change of leader exercised in the right way. Some of Abbott's closest supporters worry a fresh face would contrast with an unpopular Opposition Leader. They want Gillard as their opponent at the next election.
> 
> Why wouldn't they? She is the most unpopular Prime Minister in our history."




Well I have read the article and more.
I think Peter is attemping to do two things.
Give people another option to see if Labor can continue to the next election.
Put words into people's mouth to start the chatter.

This will allow him to get feedback through the Australian article by comments.

What do I think?. I think that just a new leader will not solve the problem.
The financial mismanagement of this government is not to be forgotten for some time.

I also respect Smith as one of their best performers. However if I was Smith, and given the opportunity to be PM, I would do a reshuffle and Swan would be out the back door.
Because with Swan as treasurer Smith would not have a hope.
joea


----------



## startrader

I think that this Gillard government is finished and it is highly unlikely that they will make it to the next election without imploding.  If it's not the Thomson affair it will be something else.  They are just a disaster and are lurching from one mess to the next.

Just remember:  there's never just one cockroach!


----------



## noco

startrader said:


> I think that this Gillard government is finished and it is highly unlikely that they will make it to the next election without imploding.  If it's not the Thomson affair it will be something else.  They are just a disaster and are lurching from one mess to the next.
> 
> Just remember:  there's never just one cockroach!




That something else could be closer than you think.

It looks like Bob Hawke was spot on when he said in the first week of June 2011, "Julia Gillard will be gone in 3 months". 

He obviously has known something that is about to be revealed.

An election before Xmas? It may well be.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...n_something_that_may_force_gillard_to_resign/


----------



## Logique

joea said:


> ...What do I think?  I think that just a new leader will not solve the problem.
> joea



Joea, in cold political analysis, I think Van Onselen is on the money. But you are correct to say that the problems go deeper than just the leadership, as the Thomson affair demonstrates.


----------



## sptrawler

The independents are starting to gag and throw mud, it's all starting to look like a shipwreck.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-day-abbott-bared-his-soul-20110827-1jfgv.html


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> The independents are starting to gag and throw mud, it's all starting to look like a shipwreck.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-day-abbott-bared-his-soul-20110827-1jfgv.html




Yes, it's pathetic when the only mud they can throw is a comment said in jest a year ago and try to turn it into something sinister.  Windsor admits it was said as a joke - probably just a bit of Aussie humour on Abbott's part.

But to raise this a year later is poor taste given the seriousness of the Thomson allegations, imo.

And I would say Gillard has shown far more desperation to be in power at all costs than Abbott ever did.  The article is clearly clutching  at straws, imo.

Windsor must be feeling the heat...


----------



## sptrawler

Yes, I wonder if Brown and Gillard will be asking for inquiry into the S.M.H and the Age for biased reporting?  DON'T THINK SO.


----------



## Aussiejeff

sails said:


> Windsor must be feeling the heat...




I wonder if he is stocking up on outback maps & provisions for his impending banishment into the political wilderness (read - next election).

Lassiter's Reef sounds a nice spot....


----------



## Aussiejeff

> KEVIN Rudd would be Labor's sole MP in Queensland if an election was held today, according to a new opinion poll.
> 
> Deputy Prime Minister Wayne Swan would be among those swept from office if, as the exclusive Galaxy Poll finds, the ALP's Lower House seats tally in Queensland plunged from seven to one.
> 
> Wider ramifications for the Gillard Government are stark - its worst states could deliver enough seats on their own for a Coalition victory.
> 
> Most recent polls show Victoria is the only state where Labor is ahead on the two-party vote.
> 
> *Today's Galaxy Poll in The Courier Mail confirms the Government would be wiped out no matter what happens in Prime Minister Julia Gillard's home state.
> 
> Labor's Queensland primary vote has collapsed to 23 per cent - a more than 10 percentage point slump since last year's August 21 election.*



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/gi...aster-poll-shows/story-fn6bfkm6-1226124021182

Bring it on!!! :angry:


----------



## Calliope

Aussiejeff said:


> Bring it on!!! :angry:




Yes indeed!


> the lurid scandal surrounding Craig Thomson has shone a searchlight back onto the corrupt and self-serving culture within the union movement. That Gillard, Windsor, Oakeshott, the Labor Party, the union machine and even Fair Work Australia, through its inertia, have all served to protect Thomson will merely underline this government's illegitimacy in the mind of the electorate which, if given a chance, would throw them all out of office.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...to-oblivion-20110828-1jgau.html#ixzz1WN3tH6Ej


----------



## Calliope

As long as Craig Thomson sits smirking in parliament the stench of the Gillard government will never go away. The first Labor man to put his hand up to give this low life the boot will be the next leader of a depleted team. It would have to be someone with a safe seat and a desire for revenge. Rudd fits the bill.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> As long as Craig Thomson sits smirking in parliament the stench of the Gillard government will never go away. The first Labor man to put his hand up to give this low life the boot will be the next leader of a depleted team. It would have to be someone with a safe seat and a desire for revenge. Rudd fits the bill.




Gillard is doing the LIMBO ROCK. How looooow can she go?


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...put-labor-in-red/story-e6frerdf-1226124008753


----------



## sptrawler

Labor is going to save a fortune on how to vote leaflets, nobody will want one.


----------



## Aussiejeff

sptrawler said:


> Labor is going to save a fortune on how to vote leaflets, nobody will want one.




Apparently they make excellent fire lighters....


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> Gillard is doing the LIMBO ROCK. How looooow can she go?
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...put-labor-in-red/story-e6frerdf-1226124008753



Labor at 23% primary in QLD. If this was a bout the referee would stop it on a mercy rule. Or at least the handlers would throw in the towel.


----------



## joea

Logique said:


> Labor at 23% primary in QLD. If this was a bout the referee would stop it on a mercy rule. Or at least the handlers would throw in the towel.




Well I think that is the best comment I have read that covers this present situation.
joea LOL


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> Labor at 23% primary in QLD. If this was a bout the referee would stop it on a mercy rule. Or at least the handlers would throw in the towel.




I reackon Labors only chance to gain some ground and credibility is to sack Gillard and throw out the Carbon tax.

Tony Abbott would have to perform well if it happens otherwise he might also fall.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> I reackon Labors only chance to gain some ground and credibility is to sack Gillard and throw out the Carbon tax.
> 
> Tony Abbott would have to perform well if it happens otherwise he might also fall.




I disagree noco. 
If they throw out Gillard they will all look like a bunch of d!!ks for putting her in and if they throw out the carbon tax, they will look like they are panicking.
Unfortunatelly they are painted into a corner, if they stay their popularity is likely to keep falling, believe it or not.
The only chance for Gillard to gain some credibility is to call Abbott's bluff and call an election due to the untenable position the Greens have put her in.
Then she can pick up the votes of people who voted greens and now wish they hadn't.
Also there is still a large anti Abbott vote which she would pick up.
The longer she waits the bigger the mountain gets.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I disagree noco.
> If they throw out Gillard they will all look like a bunch of d!!ks for putting her in and if they throw out the carbon tax, they will look like they are panicking.
> Unfortunatelly they are painted into a corner, if they stay their popularity is likely to keep falling, believe it or not.



Agree. But they look like d!!ks anyway.   Wouldn't they have some chance of a comeback if they did ditch the tax, in the process mouthing lots of warm fuzzy stuff about how they have listened to the people yada yada?

They would gain some credulity if Craig Thomson were to stand aside until the police investigation is completed, but are they up for that level of risk?  I doubt it.

Must be hell for Labor.  If I didn't so detest them, I'd feel a bit sorry for them.


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> Agree. But they look like d!!ks anyway.   Wouldn't they have some chance of a comeback if they did ditch the tax, in the process mouthing lots of warm fuzzy stuff about how they have listened to the people yada yada?
> 
> They would gain some credulity if Craig Thomson were to stand aside until the police investigation is completed, but are they up for that level of risk?  I doubt it.
> 
> Must be hell for Labor.  If I didn't so detest them, I'd feel a bit sorry for them.




IMO, no.  Who could believe JG that she would keep her promise to not do a tax?

Their only hope (and extremely slim it is) is to get rid of the current PM and try someone different, however it is almost suicide for whoever it is.

Perhaps their best hope is damage control and a restructure for another tilt 6 yrs later.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Agree. But they look like d!!ks anyway.   Wouldn't they have some chance of a comeback if they did ditch the tax, in the process mouthing lots of warm fuzzy stuff about how they have listened to the people yada yada?
> 
> They would gain some credulity if Craig Thomson were to stand aside until the police investigation is completed, but are they up for that level of risk?  I doubt it.
> 
> Must be hell for Labor.  If I didn't so detest them, I'd feel a bit sorry for them.




No because if they ditch the tax the greens and the independents, who had a national t.v audience, have to take the fall.
They would be in no mans land and the independents would have to affiliate with the coalition, the greens would just wing it and try to grab labor votes.


----------



## sptrawler

Well it sounds as though Wilkie might have had enough and may be strapping on the life jacket.
The back lash on the independents affiliated to this government will be severe and if they are to jump ship it will have to be soon. One must remember ones parliamentary pension. 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/coalition-pressure-building-on-wilkie-20110829-1jih9.html


----------



## -Bevo-

Anyone know whats going on here Gillard running the Murdoch press now, don't say anything bad about Julia.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/bomb...lodes-under-murdoch-press-20110829-1jipb.html

Bolt's gone quite too lol.


----------



## Knobby22

Real gutter press, from the Australian too which is meant to be a broadsheet. Nasty stuff.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Real gutter press, from the Australian too which is meant to be a broadsheet. Nasty stuff.




Certainly would appear so by how quickly it was withdrawn.


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> Real gutter press, from the Australian too which is meant to be a broadsheet. Nasty stuff.



Yes, I thought so too when I read the article.  They do themselves no favours by getting into muckraking especially when there is no allegation of illegal behaviour by Ms Gillard.  Pretty silly of News Ltd in the light of the current bad light hovering over the Murdoch empire.


----------



## joea

HI.
At this point in time it has developed into a blame game.
Gillard blames... Abbott, Employers, Banks and RBA. ( plus a few extra)
In the middle we have the Unions with their list to blame.
It can not be long before it all blows up. I said by the end of August, so I have one day left.

Yesterday I read a few posts here, and it got me to thinking.
Why isn't Julia Gillard being replaced?
Regardless of the facts the Independants are playing power games, and Wilkie saying he made a pact with Gillard, not the Labor Party, and the Greens with their list of demands.

This is what I think.
The powerbrokers in the Labor Party cannot work out if the want to put in a "caretaker PM", or somebody who can win the next election. Can that be done by one person????
By this I mean, replace her, get some runs on the board and in a years time they may have brainwashed somebody to do as they say.

The powerbrokers will be saying, "she did not listen to us", so who will it be.
(she has not listened to anybody as far as I can recall) These faceless men will be saying we can win the next election with the right person.

From what I read in the media, the current government is sitting on a powder keg with a fuse burning.
I think they are in a break mode, so I believe by the time parliment restarts there will be somebody in Gillards seat.
What think yeah?
joea


----------



## Knobby22

Gillard isn't on the nose as much in Victoria as she is in Queensland.

The media in Queensland is more concentrated also which has amplified the angst. 

I can't see much to be gained by switching leaders except annoying voters in the southern states so it would be a dumb move in my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Gillard isn't on the nose as much in Victoria as she is in Queensland.
> 
> The media in Queensland is more concentrated also which has amplified the angst.
> 
> I can't see much to be gained by switching leaders except annoying voters in the southern states so it would be a dumb move in my opinion.




You are spot on Knobby22 there is no advantage in change of leader, won't work, too late and the leader is not the issue.
It is a fundamental loss of confidence in the governments agenda and ability.
Doug Cameron today on the news is obviously completely out of the loop and he is supposed to be high ranking, obviously not in Bobs league. LOL


----------



## Julia

Doesn't Julia Gillard now pretty much fill the role of 'caretaker PM'?
Unless some miracle occurs, Labor will lose the next election even if they go full term, at which stage no way will Labor keep that losing leader in the role.

So Ms Gillard will have to cop the entire blame for losing the election and a new leader will be heralded as the Saviour.

The alternative would be to shaft her now and put maybe Stephen Smith (hugely better choice imo) in, but it's likely they would still lose and in the process they have eliminated two of their better players.  So let Ms Gillard continue for now and keep the alternative up their sleeve until after they've lost the election.

Any other contenders apart from Mr Smith?


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> The alternative would be to shaft her now and put maybe Stephen Smith (hugely better choice imo) in, but it's likely they would still lose and in the process they have eliminated two of their better players.  So let Ms Gillard continue for now and keep the alternative up their sleeve until after they've lost the election.
> 
> Any other contenders apart from Mr Smith?




Exactly right.

I just think that 6 years in opposition would not be wise. Have to keep him fresh and either unleash him if/when Abbott implodes.


----------



## dutchie

Considering Gillards' complete incompetence when she is replaced she will need to go to the back benches. There is no way she would try to make a comeback. Krudd would have a better chance of making one.

In fact nearly the whole current front bench should be sent to the back bench! (the ones who retain their seats in the next election anyway)


----------



## Logique

Labor doesn't have the luxury of grooming, temporizing or strategizing on the leadership. There's nothing to lose now. Retaining the rouge PM just plays into the hands of the Coalition, the polls will drift even further. 

If the ALP are to arrest the slide in the polls, the replacement leader needs a favourable combination of:
- from the Right, or at least the centre 
- experienced, a steady hand
- not a former union official 
- female or male, but not the huffy 'don't say meow to me' sisterhood type
- some experience of, or sympathy with business

So for me it's Stephen Smith on experience, or Julie Owens (MP Parramatta for those in other states).


----------



## joea

Logique said:


> Labor doesn't have the luxury of grooming, temporizing or strategizing on the leadership. There's nothing to lose now. Retaining the rouge PM just plays into the hands of the Coalition, the polls will drift even further.
> 
> If the ALP are to arrest the slide in the polls, the replacement leader needs a favourable combination of:
> - from the Right, or at least the centre
> - experienced, a steady hand
> - not a former union official
> - female or male, but not the huffy 'don't say meow to me' sisterhood type
> - some experience of, or sympathy with business
> 
> So for me it's Stephen Smith on experience, or Julie Owens (MP Parramatta for those in other states).




Very well stated.
My bet is, it will happen.
Julia is drinking scotch tonight, to get over the decision of the high  court today.
Fair chance she will not sober up till Monday.
joea


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> So for me it's Stephen Smith on experience, or Julie Owens (MP Parramatta for those in other states).




Cannot see Smith getting up simply because there would be no factional support.

There doesn't seem to be any circuit breaker for Labor best they can hope for is to limit the damage over the next two years.

Ironically Abbott remains Labors best hope to limit the damage, sooner or later he will have to answer questions about his populism politics. 

Note even Howard on 7.30 thought this government would go full term.


----------



## Logique

IFocus said:


> Cannot see Smith getting up simply because there would be no factional support...



I hear you IF, but a PM from the west, and a West Coast Eagles premiership - not a bad daily double.


----------



## joea

IFocus said:


> Cannot see Smith getting up simply because there would be no factional support.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any circuit breaker for Labor best they can hope for is to limit the damage over the next two years.
> 
> Ironically Abbott remains Labors best hope to limit the damage, sooner or later he will have to answer questions about his populism politics.
> 
> Note even Howard on 7.30 thought this government would go full term.




Well lest look at who has been put forward by the Labor fractions.

yap! yap! yap! Kevin Rudd, who won an election with no real policy. The people in his elecoroate still like him because he was "stabbed in the back".

Then we have yap! yap! yap! "socialist" Julia Gillard who has not got one of her major policy's to work, despite spending billions of taxpayer money.
A question to ask is, "are the labor policy's compiled by the labor machine or Gillard"?
We now have Oakshott saying the NBN should be recompiled.

If some of these top ministers are involved, then we got big problems. I mean can anbody make a major policy work in the current government.?
Even the Greens are outspoken on the Malaysian deal, and are deserting Gillard.

So a new face has to be chosen, who appears to be an achiever and ( the Rudd/Gillard type persona dropped.)
Smith is one who comes to mind.

On timing, there is no way Labor can win the next election with Gillard.
The Liberals stuffed up by not giving  Costello a go. So don't you think Labor understand this?. If a new PM was to replace Gillard now, it would be almost a miracle to win the next election. The Australian way would be to give this person a go. This person could get a few runs on the board to allow him/her to campaign for the next election.
BUT is must be now or soon! The combination of Thompson(if Fair work can get its act together) and the Malaysian disaster may be the trigger.

joea p.s. obviously the GG is still asleep.


----------



## Calliope

The Peter Principle states that "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence", meaning that employees tend to be promoted until they reach a position at which they cannot work competently.

The Peter Principle kicked in when Gillard was appointed Labor leader. Her level of competence was as a cabinet minister, but even there she was involved in some grave errors such as the BER.

Abbott's level of incompetence will be reached when or if he goes from Opposition Leader to PM.


----------



## joea

Calliope said:


> The Peter Principle states that "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence", meaning that employees tend to be promoted until they reach a position at which they cannot work competently.
> 
> The Peter Principle kicked in when Gillard was appointed Labor leader. Her level of competence was as a cabinet minister, but even there she was involved in some grave errors such as the BER.
> 
> Abbott's level of incompetence will be reached when or if he goes from Opposition Leader to PM.




Is it a "virus", or is it in the water? We have a local Sugar Mill in our town, and the upper management have caught it too!!!!
joea


----------



## Knobby22

Calliope said:


> The Peter Principle states that "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence", meaning that employees tend to be promoted until they reach a position at which they cannot work competently.
> 
> The Peter Principle kicked in when Gillard was appointed Labor leader. Her level of competence was as a cabinet minister, but even there she was involved in some grave errors such as the BER.
> 
> Abbott's level of incompetence will be reached when or if he goes from Opposition Leader to PM.




Agree. Heard Hockey this morning and he really should be considered for PM.

it appears in the Labor party there are many people who are  above their levels of competance. 

There is something seriously wrong with their advisors to the ministers. There needs to be a real hard look at their whole system of selection for positions after they lose the next election. 

Areas they lack are obviously technical (engineering) expertise (e.g.pink batts, manufacturing policy) and legal people. They are struggling in oreign affairs also which suggests no one is contacting that ministry when they make decisions. 

The Prime Minister has to take the responsibility for this. She needs to use all her political capital to make change to at least turn this government around but I don't think she is the right perosn unfortunately.


----------



## sptrawler

Actually Knobby i think the problem is a fundamental flaw in the way Labor selects its members. 
The Labor party is made up of 75% ex union bosses, they in turn have formulated their managerial skills in an enviroment of intimidation, deception and corruption. IMO
They no longer pick the best people available, instead selecting representatives to pay back favours or because of their popularity. Point in case would be Garret and Maxine McKew.
That is why, when they get thrown out this time it will be for a long time.
The Labor party has lost its soul and is prepared to comprimise its principles and beliefs, as has been shown with the Greens and Independents.
They have lost all respect from the rank and file and the Thompson case will just increase the loathing.
Well that is my opinion.


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> Agree. Heard Hockey this morning and he really should be considered for PM.
> 
> it appears in the Labor party there are many people who are  above their levels of competance.
> 
> There is something seriously wrong with their advisors to the ministers. There needs to be a real hard look at their whole system of selection for positions after they lose the next election.
> 
> Areas they lack are obviously technical (engineering) expertise (e.g.pink batts, manufacturing policy) and legal people. They are struggling in oreign affairs also which suggests no one is contacting that ministry when they make decisions.
> 
> The Prime Minister has to take the responsibility for this. She needs to use all her political capital to make change to at least turn this government around but I don't think she is the right perosn unfortunately.




I think Howard hit the nail on the head on the 7.30 report the other night when he said that Gillard lacks authority. In the Labor party authority cannot be achieved without strong factional support and that rules out Stephen Smith. Anyway he is too nice a guy in a party where you have to be a real bastard to be a successful leader.

The party has no shortage of these but they have all reached their level of incompetence.


----------



## sptrawler

I wonder how the Independents are feeling today, strapped on board the good ship Gillard. LOL
Oakeshotte and the boys had better start brushing up their c.v .
Still there will be plenty of work in the "new clean energy sector", just make your c.v vague like the new jobs. LOL
I don't think I have seen a funnier government since "yes minister", oh hang on ,with yes minister, they at least had answers. LOL LOL LOL


----------



## sptrawler

Oh well, there is hope at last, even Richardson reckons Wilkie will jump ship.
He would be stupid if he didn't. I think you could run a sweep on which of the Independents jump first.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/ten-months-and-labors-gone-richardson-20110901-1jmyr.html


----------



## Logique

And that's an article in the ('non-hate' media) Age!



> ..Mr Richardson told radio 3AW, adding that it was "too late" for Ms Gillard.
> 
> "There's no way she can turn this around. You've got to say it gets worse for her every single day. It never gets better, it just gets worse."..
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/t...-richardson-20110901-1jmyr.html#ixzz1WfdsWNLC



Why wait Mr Wilkie, the poker machine legislation is unlikely to be tabled, let alone pass, even the Salvation Army are against it now.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Why wait Mr Wilkie, the poker machine legislation is unlikely to be tabled, let alone pass, even the Salvation Army are against it now.



Are they really?  Why?  I thought all the church groups loved it?


----------



## sptrawler

It's not as though there is a loyalty issue for Wilkie, at the end of the day he is there for his electorate. It does them no good if he goes down with "the good ship Gillard".


----------



## Bintang

Logique said:


> And that's an article in the ('non-hate' media) Age!
> 
> Why wait Mr Wilkie, the poker machine legislation is unlikely to be tabled, let alone pass, even the Salvation Army are against it now.






sptrawler said:


> It's not as though there is a loyalty issue for Wilkie, at the end of the day he is there for his electorate. It does them no good if he goes down with "the good ship Gillard".




I also wish Wilkie would bring the house of cards down immediately but its highly unlikely. Its about power and influence. For the moment he has some this. If he brings on an election it will not deliver another minority government for him to 'prop up' and even if he himself gets re-elected he will become an irrelevance.


----------



## sptrawler

Bintang said:


> I also wish Wilkie would bring the house of cards down immediately but its highly unlikely. Its about power and influence. For the moment he has some this. If he brings on an election it will not deliver another minority government for him to 'prop up' and even if he himself gets re-elected he will become an irrelevance.




The issue is Bintang, the longer he stays affiliated the higher the likelyhood of him not being re elected.
At the moment he could quite easily say, the Labor party is a shambles and as such I can no longer feel confident aligning myself with them. 
At least then he wouldn't recieve the anti Labor vote, which will go something like this, a vote for the Independents or the Greens is a vote for Labor.
Wait and see how that ends up.


----------



## noco

I have a gut feeling Julia Gillard will be gone before the next siting of parliament. 

Labor cannot stay with this woman and the next poll will be the crushing blow.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Are they really?  Why?  I thought all the church groups loved it?



Here you go Julia. 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...oker-machine-cap/story-e6freuy9-1226126864138
*Salvation Army pulls its support for the Gillard government's controversial poker machine cap*.  Joe Hildebrand From: The Daily Telegraph September 01, 2011

"THE Salvation Army has pulled its support for the Gillard government's controversial pokies cap, putting Labor at odds with the nation's most iconic anti-gambling group. 

The turnaround - which follows suggestions that clubs were prepared to bar Salvation Army collectors from their venues - will have major ramifications for the ALP.

Under the deal struck to form government, Prime Minister Julia Gillard must pass the reforms or lose the confidence vote of independent Andrew Wilkie.

The blow came at the hands of Louise Duff, the Salvo whose alleged verbal spray by MP Craig Thomson at a forum on the Central Coast sparked another crisis for the government.

It is understood Ms Duff asked the Salvos' Australian Eastern Territory division (NSW, Qld and ACT) for their position on the issue ahead of the forum.

They provided her with a statement that declared they did not support a blanket mandatory pre-commitment...".


----------



## ghotib

Logique said:


> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...oker-machine-cap/story-e6freuy9-1226126864138
> *Salvation Army pulls its support for the Gillard government's controversial poker machine cap*.  Joe Hildebrand From: The Daily Telegraph September 01, 2011




It's really not wise to accept anything the Tele says without checking it. Here's the Salvos' statement in response to the typical tele tale:



> 1 September 2011
> salvos.org.au
> CLARIFICATION AND CORRECTION- THE SALVATION ARMY'S POSITION ON MANDATORY PRE COMMITMENT
> The Salvation Army has not back flipped or changed its position on mandatory pre-commitment. The Salvation Army has held the same position since the beginning of the debate over mandatory pre-commitment.
> At no time has The Salvation Army ”rejected" mandatory pre-commitment or criticised the motivations or positive intentions of those who support its introduction.
> The Salvation Army has always been opposed to the proliferation of gambling and sought to assist those whose lives have been negatively affected by it.
> The Salvation Army’s work puts us in contact with these people frequently. We support the introduction of measures that will assist those whose lives are affected by gambling, and measures that limit the unchecked growth of all types of gambling in the community.
> For this reason the Salvation Army Southern Territory (Vic, TAS, SA, WA, NT) has supported the introduction of mandatory pre-commitment since its announcement.
> The Salvation Army Eastern Territory (NSW, ACT, Qld) shares a similar concern for the impact of gambling, however based on consultations with its front line staff, people in its programs effected by problem gambling, and researchers, The Salvation Army Eastern Territory support further trials of mandatory precommitment before fully endorsing it.
> The Salvation Army values its access to the clubs and hotels but any threat to this access was not a factor in determining the position of The Salvation Army Eastern Territory. Contact in clubs and hotels also provides opportunities with people who may need our support.


----------



## Julia

Bintang said:


> I also wish Wilkie would bring the house of cards down immediately but its highly unlikely. Its about power and influence. For the moment he has some this. If he brings on an election it will not deliver another minority government for him to 'prop up' and even if he himself gets re-elected he will become an irrelevance.



Agree entirely, Bintang.  Mr Wilkie will never again be able to bathe in the limelight as he does now.  He likes the power which imo is well and truly going to his head.

It's totally bizarre that a single individual with an obsession about a single issue that can hardly be considered vital to the wellbeing of the country as a whole has the power to make or break the government.

Tony Windsor is also flat out defending the government, presumably in some sort of peculiar attempt to convince himself that he backed the right horse.  

Thanks for the link re the Salvos, Logique.  From their later comments via Ghotib's link, they seem keen to have a bob each way which is fair enough I suppose.



Logique said:


> Here you go Julia.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...oker-machine-cap/story-e6freuy9-1226126864138
> *Salvation Army pulls its support for the Gillard government's controversial poker machine cap*.  Joe Hildebrand From: The Daily Telegraph September 01, 2011
> 
> "THE Salvation Army has pulled its support for the Gillard government's controversial pokies cap, putting Labor at odds with the nation's most iconic anti-gambling group.
> 
> The turnaround - which follows suggestions that clubs were prepared to bar Salvation Army collectors from their venues - will have major ramifications for the ALP.
> 
> Under the deal struck to form government, Prime Minister Julia Gillard must pass the reforms or lose the confidence vote of independent Andrew Wilkie.
> 
> The blow came at the hands of Louise Duff, the Salvo whose alleged verbal spray by MP Craig Thomson at a forum on the Central Coast sparked another crisis for the government.
> 
> It is understood Ms Duff asked the Salvos' Australian Eastern Territory division (NSW, Qld and ACT) for their position on the issue ahead of the forum.
> 
> They provided her with a statement that declared they did not support a blanket mandatory pre-commitment...".


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Agree entirely, Bintang.  Mr Wilkie will never again be able to bathe in the limelight as he does now.  He likes the power which imo is well and truly going to his head.
> 
> It's totally bizarre that a single individual with an obsession about a single issue that can hardly be considered vital to the wellbeing of the country as a whole has the power to make or break the government.
> 
> Tony Windsor is also flat out defending the government, presumably in some sort of peculiar attempt to convince himself that he backed the right horse.




The main single obsessive issue for Wilkie, Windsor, Oakeshotte and Katter is their hatred of of the Liberals in Wilkie's case and of the Nationals wth the other three. They are enjoying their revenge too much to change now. 

Abbott's policy to be nice to these rats in the hope they will switch is sickening hypocrisy.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Tony Windsor is also flat out defending the government, presumably in some sort of peculiar attempt to convince himself that he backed the right horse.




The sad thing is he is easily the best performer.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> I have a gut feeling Julia Gillard will be gone before the next siting of parliament.
> 
> Labor cannot stay with this woman and the next poll will be the crushing blow.




Well noco, only good would come from it.

On the 5am news today, the little horizontal band at the bottom of the screen said,
money was going on Cream and Smith.
I rest yours and my case.
joea


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> The main single obsessive issue for Wilkie, Windsor, Oakeshotte and Katter is their hatred of of the Liberals in Wilkie's case and of the Nationals wth the other three. They are enjoying their revenge too much to change now.
> 
> Abbott's policy to be nice to these rats in the hope they will switch is sickening hypocrisy.




Agree, Calliope.  And rather ironic that Wilke is in his position of power due to preferences from the libs.  He didn't poll that well himself and yet he thumbs his nose at the very voters whose preferences put him there.

I think the preferential system is questionable in that it allows candidates to catapult  into power who did not get the highest number of votes.


----------



## moXJO

Labor must be doing it real tough when there is talk of a Rudd revival. I thought he was worse, but everyone loved him because he threw free (or so they thought) money at them


----------



## Calliope

Julia says she ain't going nowhere and that she's the best person for the job of PM. It's a sad commentary on the quality of her front bench...but she's right.


----------



## jancha

Calliope said:


> Julia says she ain't going nowhere and that she's the best person for the job of PM. It's a sad commentary on the quality of her front bench...but she's right.




Pay peanuts you get monkeys or in Julia's case uranga.
The brains of this country would be working for companies that pay the bucks.
Maybe the PMs salary should be increased to attract persons with some brains.
In the end it might save us billions!!!


----------



## sptrawler

Yes, but it would kill off the career path for union delegates.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Yes, but it would kill off the career path for union delegates.




I think they are sucessfully killing it off themselves.  
Seems to be the only thing at which this lot are successful...


----------



## noco

jancha said:


> Pay peanuts you get monkeys or in Julia's case uranga.
> The brains of this country would be working for companies that pay the bucks.
> Maybe the PMs salary should be increased to attract persons with some brains.
> In the end it might save us billions!!!




Well, I have been saying for a long time now, our Prime Minister has a very low IQ. and the results are confirming it.


----------



## joea

jancha said:


> Pay peanuts you get monkeys or in Julia's case uranga.
> The brains of this country would be working for companies that pay the bucks.
> Maybe the PMs salary should be increased to attract persons with some brains.
> In the end it might save us billions!!!




A CEO ON MILLIONS EMPLOYED BY A BIG COMPANY CAN BE REMOVED BY THE SHAREHOLDERS IF THEY fAIL.

We have a PM who is incompetent, cannot run the country, cannot come up with a policy that can be sensibly administerated and the people of Australia appear not to be able to do one thing about it.

Thats the sad part.

joea


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> Labor must be doing it real tough when there is talk of a Rudd revival. I thought he was worse, but everyone loved him because he threw free (or so they thought) money at them



He was absolutely worse and would be even more ghastly if he were restored to PM.
Can't you just imagine the expansion of his already inflated ego if they begged him to come back and save them!!!

Julia Gillard has failed miserably but if Rudd had persisted with the same policies that she has, I doubt his popularity would be any better than hers.  They have both totally failed to relate in any genuine fashion to the electorate.

My abiding mental picture that totally summed up Rudd's superficiality was during last summer's floods in Qld where he alerted a TV crew to the fact that he was going to be out there wading through the noxious waters, holding some poor bugger's suitcase aloft, and declaring he just wanted to be doing his bit.   
If it were really the case, he'd have just gone out there and joined with all the other volunteers, instead of instructing the TV crew to be in attendance.

And, at the risk of being somewhat off topic, I will go nuts if I see any more politicians in hard hats and reflective vests.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> He was absolutely worse and would be even more ghastly if he were restored to PM.
> Can't you just imagine the expansion of his already inflated ego if they begged him to come back and save them!!!
> 
> Julia Gillard has failed miserably but if Rudd had persisted with the same policies that she has, I doubt his popularity would be any better than hers.  They have both totally failed to relate in any genuine fashion to the electorate.
> 
> My abiding mental picture that totally summed up Rudd's superficiality was during last summer's floods in Qld where he alerted a TV crew to the fact that he was going to be out there wading through the noxious waters, holding some poor bugger's suitcase aloft, and declaring he just wanted to be doing his bit.
> If it were really the case, he'd have just gone out there and joined with all the other volunteers, instead of instructing the TV crew to be in attendance.
> 
> And, at the risk of being somewhat off topic, I will go nuts if I see any more politicians in hard hats and reflective vests.




+1 absolutely spot on.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> +1 absolutely spot on.




And I agree with Julia too.

What's the point of bringing Rudd back in as leader when he and Gillard cooked up these messes between them.  It was their idea to get rid of the Pacific Solution and Rudd was hell bent on an ETS.

I think his high polling has been more to show the woefulness of Gillard and a bit of sympathy.  I would think most believing he's had his chance and would not have given the thought of Rudd really returning as leader much thought.  If new polls were taken with any serious threat of Rudd becoming PM again, I doubt very much that he would do so well.

And, won't it look rather silly to keep popping the same leaders in and out?  That would look very much like child's play.

I think labor need a leader who will put any sort of pricing carbon off until the next election and revert to the pacific solution asap if they have any hope of salvaging anything at this stage.  However, I'm not sure that anyone in the labor party could do make any sort of sensible decision anymore.  Maybe Smith or Crean.

Otherwise, our only hope is that Wilke will do a dummy spit over his poker machines and at least do the honourable thing for the liberal voters who catapulted him to power or Thomson will be forced to step down.

Not unless any other labor MP is willing to become a national hero and save Australia from this mess...


----------



## IFocus

Might be a speed hump for Abbott.

LNP MP Peter Slipper threatens revolt as win looms for Mal Brough 




> FEDERAL opposition MP Peter Slipper has threatened to join the crossbenches if an internal vote today backs Howard government minister Mal Brough to head the branch of the Queensland Liberal National Party in his electorate of Fisher.





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-for-mal-brough/story-e6frgczx-1226128495557


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Might be a speed hump for Abbott.
> 
> LNP MP Peter Slipper threatens revolt as win looms for Mal Brough ...





Maybe Slipper would have been better as a labor MP - this is more in keeping with labor nonsense, imo.  Seems he will put himself before his country and hopefully LNP will find someone else to run in his seat at the next election.  LNP doesn't need selfish people like this.  Crooke is another one who has questionable loyalties, imo.

However, Abbott's speed humps are very tiny compared to the volcanoes Gillard is creating...


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Might be a speed hump for Abbott.
> 
> LNP MP Peter Slipper threatens revolt as win looms for Mal Brough



I live in his electorate. I hope he does go to the cross benches. The party will be well rid of this lazy, opportunist travel rorter, who survives by doing nothing in a safe seat. He is not called "Slippery Pete" for nothing.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> I live in his electorate. I hope he does go to the cross benches. The party will be well rid of this lazy, opportunist travel rorter, who survives by doing nothing in a safe seat. He is not called "Slippery Pete" for nothing.



 What's the background here, Calliope?  I just caught the very end of a news item about it where Slipper denied that he had any intention of rocking the boat.

I'd very much like to see Mal Brough back where his common sense and decisiveness can be used to good effect.  If it were a case of out with Slipper and in with Brough, that would be great imo, but I expect it's not that simple?


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Might be a speed hump for Abbott.
> 
> LNP MP Peter Slipper threatens revolt as win looms for Mal Brough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-for-mal-brough/story-e6frgczx-1226128495557




Don't know much about Peter Slipper, but if he wants to jump to the "good ship Gillard" more fool him. He deserves anything he gets, obviously not very bright and maybe should change stables.LOL
Actualy it is probably a good time for all members to show their allegiances, at least the electorate will know who they are voting for.
The last election certainly shows flaws in the preference system


----------



## sptrawler

Well this seals it, Wayne Swan says Julia is as tough as nails. This is from the man who has just been to China and told them to revalue their currency. WOW they must be s#1tting themselves. I'm impressed.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/gillards-tough-as-nails-and-will-stay-pm-swan-20110903-1jr1h.html


----------



## Julia

The Sunday Mail today carries a front page article to the effect that fathers will be given a handout equivalent to two weeks' minimum wage to, um, change nappies etc.
as long as they earn under $150,000 p.a.

Didn't the government announce a maternity/paternity leave scheme a few months ago where either partner could take paid leave for a much longer period than two weeks?

What am I missing here?  (Apart from the stupidity of what appears to be yet another bit of middle class welfare when they're claiming to be determined to get the budget back into surplus.)

http://www.couriermail.com.au/money...oost-for-fathers/story-fn3hskur-1226128934548


----------



## Wysiwyg

I have never understood why I have to contribute to the life choices of other people via tax, medicare, levies et cetera.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> What am I missing here?  (Apart from the stupidity of what appears to be yet another bit of middle class welfare when they're claiming to be determined to get the budget back into surplus.)




But there's more;

 "Dads and *same-sex couples* to receive two weeks' parental leave from January 2013."  I suppose this is to appease Penny Wong.


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> I live in his electorate. I hope he does go to the cross benches. The party will be well rid of this lazy, opportunist travel rorter, who survives by doing nothing in a safe seat. He is not called "Slippery Pete" for nothing.




Mal Brough certainly would be a better member and contributor to Australian politics.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Calliope said:


> But there's more;
> 
> "Dads and *same-sex couples* to receive two weeks' parental leave from January 2013."  I suppose this is to appease Penny Wong.



That would be a double handout?


----------



## medicowallet

Wysiwyg said:


> That would be a double handout?




or a 2 x female couple would get umpteen weeks each...

Or

I can see Penny jumping up and down wanting the 2 weeks payment.


I think that maternity/paternity leave is fine, if other handouts are stopped eg baby bonus.  I would much prefer to see mum and dad have to stay at home, and enjoy their baby as opposed to getting the plasma and putting the baby into daycare from day 2.


----------



## Happy

Wysiwyg said:


> I have never understood why I have to contribute to the life choices of other people via tax, medicare, levies et cetera.




Yes this boggles me too.

All of the sudden everything is everybody elses problem, be it drink-driving, crime, children or in one word RESPONSIBILITY!


----------



## Julia

medicowallet said:


> I think that maternity/paternity leave is fine, if other handouts are stopped eg baby bonus.  I would much prefer to see mum and dad have to stay at home, and enjoy their baby as opposed to getting the plasma and putting the baby into daycare from day 2.



Yes, agree about the leave being preferable to lump sum baby bonus, though I'd still prefer that people who wanted to have children should do so on the basis that they are prepared to pay for them and not expect society at large to do so.   



Happy said:


> Yes this boggles me too.
> 
> All of the sudden everything is everybody elses problem, be it drink-driving, crime, children or in one word RESPONSIBILITY!



And I believe there's another insidious process at work in this also, in that the more the taxpayer picks up the tab for individual choices, the greater the tendency for people to lose any sense of personal responsibility.  Ultimately - and we can see this happening already - there exists a sense of entitlement which does not include having to actually do anything on a personal basis.


----------



## noco

There will be a new poll out tomorrow and if Labor's primary vote is down to 25%, I would say Gillard will be repaced before the next sitting of parliament.



http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-losing-its-head-20110903-1jrm0.html#ixzz1WvAHteSp


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> But there's more;
> "Dads and *same-sex couples* to receive two weeks' parental leave from January 2013."  I suppose this is to appease Penny Wong.



Difficult to introduce same sex couples parental leave...what to do...ah that's it, fathers and same sex couples  will get two weeks...ha ha, nobody will notice the second bit. Announce it on Fathers Day. 

And like the carbon tax, the main aim is to get it in, then increase it gradually by stealth.

On rolls the social engineering agenda. We've moaned at length about the carbon tax, but there is something far more insidious at work here, as in Julia's post above. Our core values are being undermined, employing very  underhanded tactics.


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> Difficult to introduce same sex couples parental leave...what to do...ah that's it, fathers and same sex couples  will get two weeks...ha ha, nobody will notice the second bit. Announce it on Fathers Day.
> 
> And like the carbon tax, the main aim is to get it in, then increase it gradually by stealth.
> 
> On rolls the social engineering agenda. We've moaned at length about the carbon tax, but there is something far more insidious at work here, as in Julia's post above. Our core values are being undermined, employing very  underhanded tactics.




They are just further allienating themselves from mainstream beliefs. The polls will reflect a continuing disenchantment with them putting further presure on their unity.
Not all in the Labor party are fools, are they?


----------



## joea

noco said:


> There will be a new poll out tomorrow and if Labor's primary vote is down to 25%, I would say Gillard will be repaced before the next sitting of parliament.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-losing-its-head-20110903-1jrm0.html#ixzz1WvAHteSp




noco
I was told today that Bligh will go to an election before Christmas to get away from the smell of the Federal Labor government.
If this is true, then she must think she has a better chance before Christmas or before Newman gets properly organised.

What I was told was the "state government officals were told to start cleaning out their desks". 
joea


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> Yes, agree about the leave being preferable to lump sum baby bonus, though I'd still prefer that people who wanted to have children should do so on the basis that they are prepared to pay for them and not expect society at large to do so.




I just think that in general, middle class welfare has gotten out of control, sure, a $6k handout to take a few weeks off, and buy some essentials, but FTB A, FTB B, Parenting payment etc just puts pressures onto society by driving up inflation.

Times are different to when I was younger, and the BB equivalent is a small price to pay imo to help someone keep their job, and provide the essentials (well that is the way it is supposed to work anyway  )


----------



## sptrawler

It is really starting to get serious. This isn't from the Australian.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/labor-woeful-on-economic-reform-says-argus-20110905-1jucc.html

and this
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...a-youre-breaking-my-heart-20110905-1ju4f.html
and this
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-boat-people-policy-again-20110904-1jsh6.html

I  think there should be an inquiry into the Age how dare they run this sort of stuff.


----------



## sptrawler

I think we talked about this awhile ago and said Barnett wasn't stupid.LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/ofarrell-to-raise-mining-royalties-20110905-1jubr.html

This is really starting to unravel.


----------



## sails

Thanks for the links sptrawler...

There is a poll on this one: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-people-policy-again-20110904-1jsh6.html#poll

Results so far:



> Poll: Should Julia Gillard accept Tony Abbott's offer to work together to re-open offshore processing centres?
> 
> Yes....              65%
> No.....   35%
> 
> Total votes: 10,450.
> 
> Poll closes in 7 hours.


----------



## joea

Punters have the betting on Steven Smith from $7.0 to $4.90 for PM.
joea


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> It is really starting to get serious. This isn't from the Australian. http://www.theage.com.au/national/labor-woeful-on-economic-reform-says-argus-20110905-1jucc.html and this http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...a-youre-breaking-my-heart-20110905-1ju4f.html and this http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-boat-people-policy-again-20110904-1jsh6.html



Thanks sptrawler. I keep picturing Charlie Sheen in the patrol boat, Marlon Brando waiting in the shadows. Even the jungle wanted him gone. Great Coppola movie that, nice sound track too.


----------



## Happy

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-06/rudd-preferred-labor-leader/2872424


> …
> Newspoll has Julia Gillard's personal support hitting a new low of just 23 per cent.
> …




Well, how low can it go?


----------



## drsmith

So toast,

Soooo toast.


----------



## dutchie

Juliar is going nowhere.

She says “I’m the best person to do this job*.” 

I agree that she is the best Labor has to do this "job".

* The job is to bring the Australian economy and society to its knees.

Go Juliar !   (I mean please go)


----------



## sptrawler

I tend to agree with her, she is definately the best Labor has to offer, a bit like Abbott is the best Liberal have.
It is a sad indictment of how bad things are. 
Even Ms Mackew who toppled Howard threw in the towel after 3 years. However she probably achieved what she was parachuted in for.


----------



## Logique

Bit off topic, but one of the perverse pleasures of an up day on markets is tuning in to Fran and the collective at Radio National, having to annnounce that there's still life in that darned capitalism.

I missed ABC TV 'At Home With Julia' last night, what did people think of it?


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> Bit off topic, but one of the perverse pleasures of an up day on markets is tuning in to Fran and the collective at Radio National, having to annnounce that there's still life in that darned capitalism.
> 
> I missed ABC TV 'At Home With Julia' last night, what did people think of it?




It's a sort of Kath and Tim. Julia comes across as a sympathetic figure with a nasal voice and a padded rump and she walks like a duck. Her attire is spot on.

There is no hint of her nasty side.  Overall it is mildly amusing, but worth watching.


----------



## Calliope

*Should Australia withdraw from the United Nations Refugee Convention?*



> As a result of the High Court's decision last week in M70 v Minister for Immigration, 4000 refugees in Malaysia will miss out on entering Australia. It will also reap a political blowback when the public understand the magnitude of how the intent of the Parliament has been subverted in the courts.
> The legal quagmire in which the federal government and the courts are stuck could be escaped at a single stroke. The root cause is the United Nations, the majority of whose members are not democracies, and specifically Australia's signature on the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees.
> Australia should withdraw from the convention, citing its increasing unworkability, impossibly loose language and unlimited impositions. An entire theatre of ideological lawfare would be laid to waste, and after changes to the Migration Act to pre-empt such lawfare, Australian democracy, security and sovereignty would be strengthened.





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...un-policies-20110907-1jxr3.html#ixzz1XLRGrTaH




> Poll: Should Australia withdraw from the UN Refugee Convention?
> 
> Yes: 61%
> 
> No: 39%
> 
> Poll closes in 17 hours.
> Disclaimer:
> These polls are not scientific and reflect the opinion only of visitors who have chosen to participation





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...un-policies-20110907-1jxr3.html#ixzz1XLPqbZ1H


----------



## Julia

From Calliope's link to Paul Sheehan's article:



> Of 148 decisions handed down by the Federal Court this year, 43 of them, almost one in three, were immigration cases.
> 
> The Federal Court has so far heard 157 cases involving the Minister for Immigration this year, by far the largest category.
> 
> The Refugee Review Tribunal has heard 737 cases this year, and counting.
> 
> Most immigration litigation is being funded by the taxpayer, either directly via legal aid or circuitously via other subsidies.




This is something I suspect many Australians are unaware of, having swallowed the line that lawyers are all acting pro bono and therefore incurring no cost to the taxpayer.  It would be good to see the actual dollar figure that e.g. this most recent appeal to the High Court has racked up.

It looks pretty clear that the government and the opposition have between them sufficient motivation to significantly alter the Migration Act, to a point which will remove the validity of further Court challenges.  I hope they can both hold their tempers enough to achieve this.

It will be well worth their trouble, if for no better reason than the fury it will engender within the Greens and their supporters.


----------



## joea

Having watched a little of Q & A and watching Greg Combet attempting to answer a question, leads me to a question.

Is there one Labor politican that can answer a simple question without having to recite words given to him or her?

The more you see of these labor MP's the more I shudder that they are attempting to run Austalia.
joea


----------



## sptrawler

Nothing like hanging out the "dirty washing" I wonder if this is the tip of the iceberg?
This could encourage more whistle blowers to come forward.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/systemic-organised-fraud-20110909-1k21d.html

Also Gillard and Brown had better add the S.M.H to their investigation on biased reporting. Actually they may as well investigate all the papers, they all seem to be bagging the government.


----------



## Julia

It's a bit of a turn around for the SMH.  

Interesting article but it's a bit hard to see from that where any fraud occurred, as the police seemed to conclude with the Thomson card.

Obviously there has been a gross misuse of union members' contributions but maybe that doesn't constitute a criminal offence?  I don't know.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> It's a bit of a turn around for the SMH.
> 
> Interesting article but it's a bit hard to see from that where any fraud occurred, as the police seemed to conclude with the Thomson card.
> 
> Obviously there has been a gross misuse of union members' contributions but maybe that doesn't constitute a criminal offence?  I don't know.




It's just normal behavior for a union executive. Ask Bill Ludwig.



> He said union officials lost their private identity when they took on the job of union representation.
> 
> "Any attack on them becomes an attack on the union," he said. "That is why their costs are covered."




I like the bit about losing their private identity. Under this rationale Thomson was doing his brothel crawl on behalf of his union.


----------



## sptrawler

Obviously commentators are starting to ask the Government what are the new jobs that will be created by the 'clean energy and N.B.N.
They are never very specific, because they know there will be a net loss of jobs.
Also they don't have a clue if any new jobs will be created, as can be seen by this article.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...forum-in-october/story-e6frg90f-1226134005712

I don't know why business representitives would get involved. The Government didn't want to hear from them when they drafted their stupid ideas. Now they are in manure they want people with brains to pull them out. LOL


----------



## Logique

True sptrawler,
ask Smurf how many jobs have been created in Tasmania by Green policies. Globally, I think the ratio of green jobs created to real jobs lost, runs at around 1:3 or 4


----------



## sptrawler

It's a bit of a shame Cate Blanchett and Hugh Jackman can't be there, they could have added some real depth to the future jobs forum. Luckily they made it to the Australia future 2020 forum in 2008.
Maybe one forum was enough for them, or maybe Julia doesn't have the pulling power Kev had.


----------



## bellenuit

There has been a lot of speculation over the last few days regarding Rudd replacing Gillard. Were that to happen, what do you think Gillard would do.....?

Would Rudd give her a ministerial position?  If not, would Gillard go quietly to the back benches?  If she is really miffed by the whole thing and feels she has been badly done by, she could resign from parliament, forcing a by-election that would possibly see the end of the Labor government. Would her loyalty to the party be greater than her desire for revenge?


----------



## sptrawler

There is a better chance of the crack in my ===== healing up than them putting Rudd back in.
Instead of the public thinking they are d!%k heads, the labor party would be walking around with neon signs on their heads saying "we are a bunch of d!%k heads"
They are stupid but they couldn't be that stupid.
However it would be magic if they did it, world wide laughing stock.
Newsheadlines " You know how we reported a year ago that the Australian Government threw out it's Prime Minister. 
Well now they have put him back in again, apparently it was a big mistake and the idiot they put in was sillier than the one they threw out"


----------



## wayneL

sptrawler said:


> However it would be magic if they did it, world wide laughing stock.
> Newsheadlines " You know how we reported a year ago that the Australian Government threw out it's Prime Minister.
> Well now they have put him back in again, apparently it was a big mistake and the idiot they put in was sillier than the one they threw out"




Sounds like the plebs are just as silly http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...udd-returns-poll/story-e6frfkvr-1226134379464


----------



## noco

wayneL said:


> Sounds like the plebs are just as silly http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...udd-returns-poll/story-e6frfkvr-1226134379464




Is it possible to change the spots on a LEOPARD?


----------



## Logique

bellenuit said:


> There has been a lot of speculation over the last few days regarding Rudd replacing Gillard. Were that to happen, what do you think Gillard would do.....?



Firstly I don't think it would be Rudd. 

Julia Gillard is a child of the movement, unions/Labor, so I doubt there'd be any sabotage. 

She is no policy wonk, so make no mistake, there to be the leader. If she's to depart the Lodge, it will be kicking and screaming. Afterwards, who knows, perhaps a period on the backbench, and at the next election, resign to go and head up a quango of some sort.


----------



## sptrawler

Just another example of inept fiscal management. They are going to raid the future fund for money. How anybody can take these fools seriously is completely beyond me.
They should write a book "Budgeting for dummies"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-budget-surplus/story-fn59niix-1226134325846


----------



## Julia

wayneL said:


> Sounds like the plebs are just as silly http://www.news.com.au/national/lab...udd-returns-poll/story-e6frfkvr-1226134379464




I can't believe this!  Are people allowing sympathy for the way Kevin Rudd was despatched by his colleagues, plus maybe his recent health concerns, to obscure their memory of how utterly awful he was?

Moreover, Rudd is so despised by his colleagues (with very few exceptions) that surely the government would fall apart completely if they all had to attempt to work with him again>

Yet, Ms Gillard continues to lose the confidence of at least those polled.  It's a hideous situation for the government all round.

Might be good, however, for Tony Abbott to take note of the finding by this poll that if K. Rudd were to be returned as PM, he'd beat Mr Abbott in an election!


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Might be good, however, for Tony Abbott to take note of the finding by this poll that if K. Rudd were to be returned as PM, he'd beat Mr Abbott in an election!




It's ridiculous isn't it!
Has Australia ever had such poor choices?


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> It's ridiculous isn't it!
> Has Australia ever had such poor choices?




We are indeed a lucky country to be able to survive such second-rate politicians. The day is approaching when we will reach the tipping point.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Just another example of inept fiscal management. They are going to raid the future fund for money. How anybody can take these fools seriously is completely beyond me.
> They should write a book "Budgeting for dummies"
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-budget-surplus/story-fn59niix-1226134325846




Peter Costello said they would, leading up to the 2007 election.
He also said there was a " world financial tsunami" coming, but his liberal mates would not back him.
Its Australia's, and our loss.
Time for a beer!!!!
joea


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Nothing like hanging out the "dirty washing" I wonder if this is the tip of the iceberg?
> This could encourage more whistle blowers to come forward.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/systemic-organised-fraud-20110909-1k21d.html




It looks as though our guess might prove correct.
The proverbial could really hit the fan. If it is proven there is systemic corruption, it could lead to all unions being investigated. Now that would prove a real hoot.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/bigs...trike-force-investigation-20110912-1k636.html


----------



## startrader

Add this to the list of failed schemes and money wasted by this inept, incompetent, pathetic government:

Well Being Green, a business that acted as a type of intermediary for solar installers to trade renewable energy certificates, has collapsed into administration, owing more than $7 million to about 200 creditors.

A Government-recommended Solar Heating Rebate Agent company has absconded with $7 million rebate money, owed to small business and tradesmen – despite the Federal Government having been warned of the company’s dodgy practices by tradesmen and the Opposition. The Minister for Climate Change, Greg Combet has disowned the issue.


----------



## sptrawler

startrader said:


> Add this to the list of failed schemes and money wasted by this inept, incompetent, pathetic government:
> 
> Well Being Green, a business that acted as a type of intermediary for solar installers to trade renewable energy certificates, has collapsed into administration, owing more than $7 million to about 200 creditors.
> 
> A Government-recommended Solar Heating Rebate Agent company has absconded with $7 million rebate money, owed to small business and tradesmen – despite the Federal Government having been warned of the company’s dodgy practices by tradesmen and the Opposition. The Minister for Climate Change, Greg Combet has disowned the issue.




It will be interesting to see who the directors are.


----------



## drsmith

26%. :flush:



> Labor's primary vote is now the same as the combined vote of the Greens and other minor parties and independents for the first time.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...and-independents/story-fn59niix-1226141278793


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> 26%. :flush:
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...and-independents/story-fn59niix-1226141278793



This will have the 'Love Media' entering hyperdrive. Plenty of love for the government in Four Corners piece on the carbon tax last night. Have we ever seen anything so blatant. Not much chance of them being enquired into, by this govt anyway.


----------



## drsmith

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...loses-supporters/story-fn59niix-1226143719240



> INDEPENDENT MP Rob Oakeshott says any move to replace Julia Gillard as prime minister would cause him to reflect on his support for the minority Labor government.




Rubbish.

While Rob Oakeshott would obviously prefer Julia Gillard to remain as PM, he won't abandon this  Labor government if they dump her as that would also mean abandoning his precious carbon tax.


----------



## drsmith

The body language from Kevin Rudd and Shayne Neumann is telling.

http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2139360061/Travel-cost-rift-and-leadership-speculation-in-ALP 

No wonder Rob Oakshott has chipped in.

Call me Kevin. All I want to know is confirmation on whether you support the carbon tax.


----------



## drsmith

What Julia Gillard's hand is worth to Bob Brown,



> BOB Brown has declared the Greens' minority government deal with Labor would survive a change of prime minister, saying the agreement was with the party, not Julia Gillard.




Perhaps Bob has allready had a call from Kevin about the carbon tax.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...loses-supporters/story-fn59niix-1226143504201


----------



## sails

Would anything actually change with Rudd re-instated as leader?  He was the one who abolished the Pacific Solution and he wanted an ETS.  Wouldn't he simply continue to lose the way for labor?

I sometimes wonder if his high polling is more to do with Gillard's unpopularity than actual support for him.


----------



## sptrawler

I would think it is more a reflection of Bob going into panic mode.
They are all in so much manure, oh dear.
Every week another policy announcement, that effects your personal outcomes. That really becomes tiresome for people, working or retired, to try and make life decisions.
I am really over this Government!!!!!!!


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I am really over this Government!!!!!!!



I'll predict that the upcoming fortnight will be the last of Julia Gillard's prime ministership.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-22/abbott-calls-for-resignation-over-asylum/2911690/?site=sydney


----------



## sptrawler

I don't think so drsmith, they are so lost they don't know what to do. It is like the dog that chases the bus, it is completely stuffed when it catches it.
Now they are going to reinvent the Labor party that you voted for because it has become lost. What The.
This is the problem the Government in power has lost its way and is trying to rush through stupid legislation. IMO
If they manage to stay in power for the next two years it will be frightening.
Self interested dicks. imo


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Would anything actually change with Rudd re-instated as leader?  He was the one who abolished the Pacific Solution and he wanted an ETS.  Wouldn't he simply continue to lose the way for labor?
> 
> I sometimes wonder if his high polling is more to do with Gillard's unpopularity than actual support for him.



I'd support that idea, sails.  Personally I find Rudd way more obnoxious than Julia Gillard and I think if he were re-established as PM, the electorate would pretty soon remember how much they disliked him.

It looks as though he's already canvassing the numbers, however.

Seems to me the Labor Party are in such a dreadful mess they're losing the capacity to think even a bit clearly.  The emphasis in the parliament today on any increase in boats being the sole responsibility of Tony Abbott is farcical.  They are panicking more each day.


----------



## sptrawler

Obviously we are on the same song sheet Julia, this is becomming a real mess.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I don't think so drsmith, they are so lost they don't know what to do.



Julia seems to have decided it's Malaysia or burn.

She won't get the former, so it will be the latter. It's only a question of time.

The knife drawer in the kitchen at the house of Liberal I suspect has allready been emptied.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20515&p=659876&viewfull=1#post659876


----------



## Julia

I wonder how much personal control Julia Gillard actually has over the situation?
She was pretty much told to get out there and take over when the factional bosses decided our Kev was no longer a goer, and isn't it likely most of what she has said and done since then has been dictated to her?  

I'm almost feeling a bit sorry for her.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Julia seems to have decided it's Malaysia or burn.
> 
> She won't get the former, so it will be the latter. It's only a question of time.
> 
> The knife drawer in the kitchen at the house of Liberal I suspect has allready been emptied.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20515&p=659876&viewfull=1#post659876




Malaysia can't and won't happen. Legally it is in conflict with Australias stated position, you can't change your postion for political expediency. The legal sytem won't wear it, that is real banana republic s#!t.
Abbott is right in standing by a past practice and custom, it is defendable.
Gillard is being stupid. imo


----------



## Logique

Too many nonentities with their hands on the levers of power. 

How many points would the XAO rally if Rudd returned and delayed the carbon tax.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> I wonder how much personal control Julia Gillard actually has over the situation?
> She was pretty much told to get out there and take over when the factional bosses decided our Kev was no longer a goer, and isn't it likely most of what she has said and done since then has been dictated to her?
> 
> I'm almost feeling a bit sorry for her.




Julia, it would appear that she has full control due to labor party policy that their MPs are not permitted to cross the floor.  That gives any leader of the labor party dictatorial powers, as far as I can see.

And Graham Richardson was one of the labor heavies who help put her in power - he says so in the article below.  He also states that (bolds are mine):



> Julia Gillard, he says, has ''this incredible self-belief [which] is totally unjustified. *She listens to no one* because she thinks she understands, and she hasn't got a clue. There are plenty of good people around, if you include the cabinet, but *she is not listening to any of them*.''



and


> "... he insists Labor did not underestimate the electorate's revulsion at the axing of Rudd. There was only a '*'gross overestimation of Gillard's ability''*".




Read more by Deborah Snow: http://www.smh.com.au/national/once...for-a-fight-20110916-1kdvg.html#ixzz1YBrAP51j

So it seems that Gillard has created this awful mess by herself, albeit started by Rudd and then continued by her.  As in bold above, she won't even listen to her own cabinet.  I really don't feel sorry for someone so stubborn that they continue to rampage like a bull in a china shop and refuse to listen to any sort of reason.  Stun gun (colloquial...lol) is usually the only solution.

She could have so easily agreed to taking her carbon tax policy to the next election and I think that would have restored some faith from some  that the ALP show some respect for democracy and the majority will of the people.

Richardson knows how to listen to the people.  It would do ALP good to sit up and take notice, imo.


----------



## Julia

Thanks Sails.  I totally withdraw any silly thoughts of sympathy for her.
Agree that Richo always has a realistic interpretation.


----------



## McLovin

sails said:


> Julia, it would appear that she has full control due to labor party policy that their MPs are not permitted to cross the floor.  That gives any leader of the labor party dictatorial powers, as far as I can see.




Just because the ALP demands unity of its members on the floor of the house does not mean Gillard exercises complete control. She is at the mercy of the factions in the party room, which is where most debate occurs.

Still I wouldn't feel sorry for her. Anyone who takes Friday's focus group issue and turns it into Monday's policy agenda deserves no sympathy.


----------



## sails

McLovin said:


> Just because the ALP demands unity of its members on the floor of the house does not mean Gillard exercises complete control. She is at the mercy of the factions in the party room, which is where most debate occurs....




I don't think she listens to anyone and I don't think she lets the factions control her.  I have my own suspicisions that, if Rudd  deposed her, she would promptly resign from the labor party and force a new election so that he couldn't remain PM for long.  Only my thoughts though...




Julia said:


> Thanks Sails.  I totally withdraw any silly thoughts of sympathy for her.
> Agree that Richo always has a realistic interpretation.




Yes, I find Richo puts things into perspective quite well...


----------



## startrader

Can you believe this latest absolute WASTE of taxpayers' money:

The Gillard government has pledged $700,000 to the World Health Organisation to help other countries reduce smoking rates.

Absolutely unbelievable!


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> I don't think she listens to anyone and I don't think she lets the factions control her.  I have my own suspicisions that, if Rudd  deposed her, she would promptly resign from the labor party and force a new election so that he couldn't remain PM for long.  Only my thoughts though...




Factions install leaders (right wing put Abbott in) factions removes leaders (ask Turnbull) same for Labor Gillard would listening to her faction block and counting the numbers, Rudd by the way has no faction support thats why he got dumped.






> Yes, I find Richo puts things into perspective quite well...




Don't get to in love with Richardson he is 1st class NSW Labor right, possible tax dodger and highly linked to any number of lets say interesting people a long way from your conservative cheer squad.


----------



## joea

startrader said:


> Can you believe this latest absolute WASTE of taxpayers' money:
> 
> The Gillard government has pledged $700,000 to the World Health Organisation to help other countries reduce smoking rates.
> 
> Absolutely unbelievable!




Whats unbelieveable is that you and I are paying the taxes for this women to have a spending spree.
Gillard has proved she has no respect for the taxpayer.
joea


----------



## Logique

Monumentally inappropriate timing for introduction of two big new taxes.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/
*GENNADIY Bogolyubov, the globe-trotting Ukrainian billionaire who controls Australia’s biggest manganese mine*, ... (is) on his first trip to Australia since he visited in the weeks just after his Palmary Enterprises acquired Perth-based Consolidated Minerals… 

In his first interview in Australia, he warns the Gillard government that investment in the resources sector is being held back by difficulties in accessing the railways and ports needed to export commodities, and that *the nation’s reputation for suitability is being damaged by the planned mining and carbon taxes. Even Africa is becoming a more attractive place to do business, he suggests*.... 

Bogolyubov says investing in Australia is very expensive, but until recently it was at least viewed as a relatively stable investment destination. 

“Up to now I felt (it was stable). But now everyone is talking about the new (mining and carbon) taxes and about big changes. 

“How can you talk about stability if you don’t know the financial situation? 

“Australia is a good country but production has become more expensive. *So my investments will concentrate more to Africa*. Maybe capital will move from here to there.â


----------



## drsmith

Is that a poker machine levy I smell ?



> Families and Community Services Minister, Jenny Macklin, yesterday left the door open for financial assistance for clubs, which claim they'll be hit with a $3 billion bill to upgrade their machines.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...r-pokies-reforms/story-fn59niix-1226146694482


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Is that a poker machine levy I smell ?



Entirely possible they will use taxpayer funds for this, sickening though it would be.
Whatever is necessary to keep Andrew Wilkie happy.


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Entirely possible they will use taxpayer funds for this, sickening though it would be.
> Whatever is necessary to keep Andrew Wilkie happy.




Sorry to break the conversation, but I heard on the radio that we may have a  Rudd return and a election before Christamas, before he stuffs anything up and he has his popularity.
Or the popularity Labor think he has.
Is this wishful thinking?
joea


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> Sorry to break the conversation, but I heard on the radio that we may have a  Rudd return and a election before Christamas, before he stuffs anything up and he has his popularity.
> Or the popularity Labor think he has.
> Is this wishful thinking?
> joea




Actually it makes a bit of sense, if they change back to Rudd they would be hoping for a sympathy vote.
The interesting one is the election, it is the only way Labor can get out of the sh#t. There is a recession on the horizon and Labor have painted themselves into a corner.
There is no way they can return the budget to surplus.
The carbon tax will cause the recession in Australia to be worse.
So throw in the towel and get Rudd and the spin back in for the election in 4 years time.
This election if called in December is unwinnable for Labor, but it is better than wear the results of their stupidity through a global recession.


----------



## drsmith

They dumped Kevin Rudd to try and get out of the sh#t. If they bring him back, they will still be slaughtered at the polls.

They need a cleaner skin than Kevin Rudd.


----------



## sptrawler

Yes drsmith, but there is nobody ready, if there is to be an election in 3 months.
Gillard is on the nose, so is Rudd but opinion polls would indicate, less so.
They will get creamed either way.


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard or any replacement leader won't be calling an election in 3 months, not voluntary at least.

Labor will try and avoid its date with the electoral gallows as long as possible and at any expense to the country at large. 

This is what they have reduced themselves to. An extra 5-minutes in office at any cost.


----------



## sptrawler

Yes it would be too good to be true, an election before christmas.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> They dumped Kevin Rudd to try and get out of the sh#t. If they bring him back, they will still be slaughtered at the polls.
> 
> They need a cleaner skin than Kevin Rudd.






drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard or any replacement leader won't be calling an election in 3 months, not voluntary at least.
> 
> Labor will try and avoid its date with the electoral gallows as long as possible and at any expense to the country at large.
> 
> This is what they have reduced themselves to. An extra 5-minutes in office at any cost.



Agree.   The most logical thing would seem to be for them to persist with Julia Gillard, knowing she will be sacrificed after they lose the election.  Then bring back our Kev, I guess.

But if Ms Gillard's popularity in the polls continues to diminish won't they panic and bring Rudd back, then call an election pretty quickly before the Opposition has a chance to pull him apart?


----------



## sails

Rudd is pushing in closer on Centrebet:

GILLARD, Julia (ALP) 	2.40 
RUDD, Kevin (ALP) 	3.50 
ANY CANDIDATE NOT LISTED 	4.25 
SMITH, Stephen (ALP) 	5.25 
SHORTEN, Bill (ALP) 	6.00  


And compared to Abbott:

ABBOTT, Tony 	1.36 
TURNBULL, Malcolm 	4.00 
HOCKEY, Joe 	6.00 
ANY CANDIDATE NOT LISTED 	13.00  


http://centrebet.com/cust


----------



## Julia

A realistic comment from Mungo McCallum on a Rudd return:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2942600.html


----------



## sails

Perhaps the last Nielsen Poll is a bit tempting to bring Rudd back as leader.  





http://au.nielsen.com/news/200512.shtml


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Perhaps the last Nielsen Poll is a bit tempting to bring Rudd back as leader.



That poll might result might be more a case of anyone but Gillard.


----------



## noco

If Labor dump Gillard and the carbon tax their stocks will rise to a more respectable level and help stop the expected slaughter.

Abbott will then have to be on his toes.


----------



## sails

Interesting - Centrebet has removed labor leader candidates but sportsbet shows Crean now as favourite:

*Simon Crean 	2.00*
Julia Gillard 	2.60
Kevin Rudd 	3.75
Stephen Smith 	6.00
Bill Shorten 	7.50
Greg Combet 	10.00
Wayne Swan 	51.00 

http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...is_ajax=1&market_type_id=371210&ts=1317118789


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> If Labor dump Gillard and the carbon tax their stocks will rise to a more respectable level and help stop the expected slaughter.
> 
> Abbott will then have to be on his toes.



It would be good to see Tony Abbott challenged by a runner that is more than the walking dead.

Simon Crean and a delay of the carbon tax would at least give him something to ponder, along with the Greens and independents.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> That poll might result might be more a case of anyone but Gillard.



What I find interesting in that poll is the loss of Green votes .  Given it was Rudd who dropped the ETS, the movement of Greens voters to Labor if Rudd is running the show just demonstrates the illogic of Greens voters.



drsmith said:


> It would be good to see Tony Abbott challenged by a runner that is more than the walking dead.



Aren't you forgetting how Tony Abbott very successfully shredded Kevin Rudd?
Why is the in absentia Mr Rudd suddenly being credited with god-like characteristics?


----------



## Logique

A snap election would be politically suicidal. Voters just don't like Govts going to the polls early, let alone this one.

Not sure a leadership change will happen either. Who in their right mind would want the job now? And Rudd isn't very popular.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> A realistic comment from Mungo McCallum on a Rudd return: http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2942600.html



In part, but McCallum still sings from the same hymn sheet, open the doors and let all the boats in.  

It's just moralizing, and as a policy setting, immature and naive, in practice a demonstrable failure. Who is he to call anyone sanctimonious!


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> A snap election would be politically suicidal. Voters just don't like Govts going to the polls early, let alone this one.



Usually that's true, but - given the huge dissatisfaction with the government and Ms Gillard in particular with her broken promise about the carbon tax - I think the electorate would welcome an early election.



> Not sure a leadership change will happen either. Who in their right mind would want the job now? And Rudd isn't very popular.



Agree.



Logique said:


> In part, but McCallum still sings from the same hymn sheet, open the doors and let all the boats in.
> 
> It's just moralizing, and as a policy setting, immature and naive, in practice a demonstrable failure. Who is he to call anyone sanctimonious!



When I suggested it was realistic, I was referring to his pointing out the futility of returning K. Rudd as leader.


----------



## sails

Big decisions for the faceless men:


----------



## joea

sails said:


> Perhaps the last Nielsen Poll is a bit tempting to bring Rudd back as leader.
> 
> View attachment 44683
> 
> 
> http://au.nielsen.com/news/200512.shtml




That maybe what the pol indicates, but I would bet my house on the fact that is not how the people will vote.
joea


----------



## countryboy

85 pages of opinions and comments since march 2010. Some great quotes and predictions most of which have not come to fruition but great reading entertainment.

so I'll join the fun:
1-the boats will keep coming- labour or liberal
2-this government will go full term barring a car accident/ heart attack
3 -Carbon tax will pass
4 -Pokies limit may not make it- but wont result in change of gov- it will be years before independents get this shot at power again. Wilkie is bluffing
5 Tony Abbott will use the word "bad" another 1 million times beteen now and the election !


----------



## drsmith

Quiet this week, except for one happy little vegemite.

What are the rest of the little vegemites in that jar up to, I wonder.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Quiet this week, except for one happy little vegemite.
> 
> What are the rest of the little vegemites in that jar up to, I wonder.




How intricate is politics? There must be so much going on in Canberra that we never hear about.

It must be absolute torture for Julia Gillard not knowing what is comung next!!!!!!


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ce-julia-gillard/story-e6frgd0x-1226154421786


----------



## Logique

Telling it like it is. My bolds.

http://www.batemansbaypost.com.au/n...eral/letters-to-the-editor-28911/2307289.aspx
Letters to the Editor
28 Sep, 2011

*Who’s running the country?*
The fallout from the current proposals by the Federal Government and Tasmanian Independent MP Andrew Wilkie for mandatory pre-commitment technology for poker machines - a *“licence to punt”* - goes far deeper than its impact on the Australian club and hotel industries.

Not only is it un-Australian to require Australians to have a licence to punt, it’s also un-Australian that one person, who won a seat in Federal Parliament in Australia’s smallest state with a virtual handful of votes, is now dictating the run of play in this country’s politics.

For the record, Andrew Wilkie’s 13,788 primary votes - less than most medium to large clubs have members - placed him third and represented *just 21.26 per cent of the voting population in his own electorate of Denison, and a mere 0.0978 per cent of the enrolled voting population of this country*.

That he can now virtually hold the government and the entire country to ransom over whether the population can play legal entertainment with their own legally hard-earned money is *an assault on our democratic rights and a way of l*ife for which so many fought.

One only has to ask what next will Mr Wilkie demand - *perhaps a licence to buy a beer or have a smoke*.

Voters in this country should be outraged that our fundamental freedom of choice is being eroded by one man and they should be voicing their opinion to their local member of parliament to ensure such madness doesn’t happen again.

*It’s also time that the Prime Minister called Mr Wilkie to order and reminded him who is supposed to be running the country*.

Graeme Carroll, Chief executive officer, RSL Service Clubs


----------



## sails

The real problem is having a minority government trying to stay in power.  I think it would be good if there was a recall option for minority governments who see their need to stay in power more important than doing the right thing for the country.

This whole thing is clearly not good for Australia and the whole country is being held to ransom by minority people.

No-one voted for pokie reform (it wasn't presented as a policy) at the last election and neither did the majority vote for cabon tax and yet we seem to be unable to do anything about this unworkable situation.


----------



## Julia

I wonder if the irony in this situation has even vaguely occurred to the government?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/asylum-seekers-4000-a-day-for-smokes/story-e6freon6-1226157717931

While millions are being spent on discouraging Australians from smoking, apparently our tax dollars are happily being spent on supplying cigarettes to asylum seekers in detention.   
Your tax dollars at work, folks.  Ain't it grand.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I wonder if the irony in this situation has even vaguely occurred to the government?
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/asylum-seekers-4000-a-day-for-smokes/story-e6freon6-1226157717931
> 
> While millions are being spent on discouraging Australians from smoking, apparently our tax dollars are happily being spent on supplying cigarettes to asylum seekers in detention.
> Your tax dollars at work, folks.  Ain't it grand.




Julia, just think of the cigarette taxes the government is receiving. More revenue in the coffers. lol.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> I wonder if the irony in this situation has even vaguely occurred to the government?
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/asylum-seekers-4000-a-day-for-smokes/story-e6freon6-1226157717931
> 
> While millions are being spent on discouraging Australians from smoking, apparently our tax dollars are happily being spent on supplying cigarettes to asylum seekers in detention.
> Your tax dollars at work, folks.  Ain't it grand.





I would think the government is totally aware and knows full well that high taxes on smokes are unlikely to stop addicted people from smoking.  They will go without other necessities and so it makes for good revenue, imo.

And yet they give out this addictive stuff to new arrivals?  It raises the question if this government want people addicted to smokes due to the high revenue.  Nothing would surprise me anymore.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> I would think the government is totally aware and knows full well that high taxes on smokes are unlikely to stop addicted people from smoking.  They will go without other necessities and so it makes for good revenue, imo.
> 
> And yet they give out this addictive stuff to new arrivals?  It raises the question if this government want people addicted to smokes due to the high revenue.  Nothing would surprise me anymore.




The ones who say they are under 18 years of age may have s*#t in their own nest and miss out on the freebies.


----------



## DB008

Julia said:


> I wonder if the irony in this situation has even vaguely occurred to the government?
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/asylum-seekers-4000-a-day-for-smokes/story-e6freon6-1226157717931
> 
> While millions are being spent on discouraging Australians from smoking, apparently our tax dollars are happily being spent on supplying cigarettes to asylum seekers in detention.
> Your tax dollars at work, folks.  Ain't it grand.




That is outrageous. 
WTF is the Government thinking? Can you imagine the health costs down the road and lawsuits from other detainees claiming health benefits from 2nd hand smoke, which we will end up paying one way or another. How 'soft' is the government. It should stop this rubbish ASAP. It's not like you'll kill anybody from taking away their ciggies.


----------



## IFocus

Extraordinarily beat-up about smokes.

Just like our jails detainees earn points which they can exchange for everyday items.

Smokes happen to be every day items that are available.

Yet read the crap and you would think the immigration dept is forcing smokes down their throats. 

BTW the libertarian conservative legends of the Liberal Party (that's your mob)believe smoking is OK as its peoples own choice.

As Nick Minchin pointed out its good for our health system as smokers die younger and are a lesser burden over all on the costs of our health system. 

Now there an insight to a humans thinking.

Some thing to look forward to once Abbott takes over.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> detainees earn points which they can exchange for everyday items.



They are detainees.
Why should they 'earn points' for anything?
They have arrived in this country via irregular means to be polite about it and are being provided with accommodation, meals, exercise facilities, medical and dental care, to a standard which they are probably unlikely to have enjoyed before arriving here.

Many disadvantaged Australians do not have access to these facilities.

So why should the taxpayer be funding their smoking?

Surely it would be more appropriate for the tax dollars being supplied to keep these people in cigarettes to go to our own homeless and mentally ill people, or for that matter, to raise the unemployment benefit from the totally unacceptable level of $240 p.w.



> Smokes happen to be every day items that are available.



So what?  Why does that mean our tax dollars should be purchasing anything at all, particularly something considered so odious for the Australian population, for a group of people who are not even proven refugees?



> Yet read the crap and you would think the immigration dept is forcing smokes down their throats.



Nothing to do with forcing anything down anyone's throats.  Rather the stupidity and total unfairness of supplying to asylum seekers held in detention anything at all that the government does not make available to our own citizens.
(And that is ignoring the health considerations which is where the irony comes in.)




> the libertarian conservative legends of the Liberal Party (that's your mob)believe smoking is OK as its peoples own choice.



Perhaps you can provide a link to where this is clearly stated Liberal policy?
As far as I'm aware, it was a single throw away line by Nick Minchin who is either retired or about to retire and in no way represented party policy.

And btw, IF, surely it should be possible to discuss any policy without necessarily categorising posters' views into 'your mob' or whatever the alternative is.



> Some thing to look forward to once Abbott takes over.



Your supposition in the above statement is that a Liberal government would encourage people to smoke.  How about just not being so absolutely silly.


----------



## sails

And now that funding for welfare may become unsustainable, it makes freely handing out money for smokes even more despicable.  There is also the possibility of average marginal tax being raised a further 10%:



> THE Australian government will soon have to deal with a welfare payments crisis that will eclipse the problems of refugee boats and tax reform, a financial policy expert has warned.
> 
> Greg Smith, a member of the Henry Tax Review, said on the second day of the federal government's tax forum that the welfare payments system would become unsustainable.
> 
> "I'm sorry to inject a sad note into the discussion, but my prediction for the next 10-15 years is that the issue will not be stop the taxes or stop the boats, it will be stop the welfare system,'' he said in Canberra today.





Full article from News.com: Welfare payments crisis looms - tax expert 

Obviously, stopping the boats would help take a fair bit of pressure from the over burdened welfare system especially for economic arrivals who presumably come for the life time of free handouts.

IFocus, how can you possibly keep blinding defending this brand of labor?  If the coalition were behaving so badly, I could not post in their defence...


----------



## drsmith

That so-called tax forum is in itself, not worthy of comment.

The basic principal of tax reform is very simple. Simplify by broadening the base of the more efficient taxes and use the extra revenue to eliminate inefficient taxes and secondly, reduce the rates of the remaining taxes.

Suggestions such as raising the rate of GST or marginal rates on income is counter to this basic principal, as is new taxes such as the carbon tax.

As bad as this government has been, the last years of the Howard Government were a little naughty in the way in which it dished out middle class welfare and Tony Abbott's maternity leave scheme is just a continuation of this. 

Labor is worse though as it seems to think that the solution to everything is to increase taxes, no matter how dishonest or inefficient.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Extraordinarily beat-up about smokes.
> 
> Just like our jails detainees earn points which they can exchange for everyday items.
> 
> Smokes happen to be every day items that are available.
> 
> Yet read the crap and you would think the immigration dept is forcing smokes down their throats.
> 
> BTW the libertarian conservative legends of the Liberal Party (that's your mob)believe smoking is OK as its peoples own choice.
> 
> As Nick Minchin pointed out its good for our health system as smokers die younger and are a lesser burden over all on the costs of our health system.
> 
> Now there an insight to a humans thinking.
> 
> Some thing to look forward to once Abbott takes over.




Actually Ifocus, I am starting to turn to your way of thinking, give Labor and the Greens another turn in office.
It should be a real hoot. 
Let everyone get what they deserve.
Or is it let no good deed go unpunished.


----------



## Logique

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...raham-richardson/story-fn3dxity-1226159263342

*Labor Party facing crisis, says Graham Richardson*
"Labor is facing an unimaginable crisis and must find a way to rebuild support across the country, former party powerbroker Graham Richardson says....'It is now a sad fact to reveal that Labor cannot poll 30 per cent in any state in Australia,' Mr Richardson said at the launch of former NSW minister Frank Sartor's new book, The Fog On The Hill: How NSW Labor Lost Its Way....'That is a crisis that none of us could ever imagine'...'There's no doubt about it, Labor's lost its way, and it needs to find it again soon,' Mr Richardson said.'"


----------



## boofhead

Seems internally Labor has too many fires and focuses more about what is happening on the inside instead of doing what the people vote them to do. The factions should give more ground and at times be pleased for gradual moves towards their goals. Seems too many people are interested in their own turf. Smarter faction leaders should think the longer Labor is in power, the they can change from Howard's way to their way. They need to keep the populace on side.

Labor also needs to look at how it forms policies and then tries to sell it. Rudd's desire to get stuff done now and too much talk seems to have damaged things too.


----------



## sails

Latest Newspoll - still not good for labor and there is additional information on which party is best to handle various issues:

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/10/11/1226163/501640-111011-newspoll.pdf


----------



## trainspotter

..... just superimpose Juliar Gizzards head on the blonde.


----------



## medicowallet

trainspotter said:


> ..... just superimpose Juliar Gizzards head on the blonde.
> 
> View attachment 44870




Blasphemy, 

The blonde is a looker.

I would hate to have that nice looking doll, with our PM's voice..


----------



## joea

Hi.
I offer two wordings from Thomas Jefferson.

1  " My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too
      much government."

2  "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he
    disbelieves and abhors is sinful annd tryannical."

joea


----------



## Logique

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...eadership-battle/story-fn59niix-1226167163954
*Push for Stephen Smith to head off Kevin Rudd in leadership battle* 
by: Dennis Shanahan and Matthew Franklin From: The Australian October 15, 2011

"..Mr Smith has emerged as a popular leadership option for the Labor Party in new research that shows he is more highly regarded than Ms Gillard or Mr Rudd.
In a survey of 1108 people conducted by website Online Opinion, Mr Smith won 58 per cent of voter support to Ms Gillard's 42 per cent on a two-candidate-preferred basis..

..Writing in The Weekend Australian today, Online Opinion chief editor Graham Young, says he gave respondents six leadership possibilities: Ms Gillard, Mr Rudd, Mr Smith, Greg Combet, Simon Crean and Bill Shorten. Ms Gillard, Mr Rudd and Mr Smith together commanded 75 per cent of first-preference votes.

'When we eliminated Shorten, Combet and Crean, in order, Smith streaked ahead, followed by Gillard with Rudd a touch behind,' Mr Young writes..."


----------



## drsmith

> *Push for Stephen Smith to head off Kevin Rudd in leadership battle*



News must think all its Xmases have come at once.


----------



## noco

I just wish to hell some miricale would happen so we can have another election and stop all the crap that is going on with this inept Green/Labor socialist left wing government.



ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!



You're not alone.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> I just wish to hell some miricale would happen so we can have another election and stop all the crap that is going on with this inept Green/Labor socialist left wing government.
> ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!



Don't give up, noco.  Now that Victoria Police are investigating Craig Thomson, he could yet be the government's undoing.

Then there's the possibility of Wilkie's poker machine 'reforms' not getting through in which case he will withdraw support for the government.

And then there's the inescapable fact that Labor are at war amongst themselves, viz just the latest disagreement between Chris Bowen and Gillard on immigration policy, plus our Kev and his machiavellian moves behind the scenes.

I'd say it would only take one more really bad Newspoll and it will be game on for Labor, especially now that they are obviously positioning Stephen Smith (poor bugger) to step in if there's a challenge from Rudd.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> I'd say it would only take one more really bad Newspoll and it will be game on for Labor, especially now that they are obviously positioning Stephen Smith (poor bugger) to step in if there's a challenge from Rudd.




Forget about Smith. He is subservient to Rudd. When Rudd was PM and Smith was Foreign Minister Rudd treated him like a lackey. I doubt if he has the nastiness to be a contender.


----------



## Calliope

Julia is looking tired and fragile. Rudd is looking on top of the world. I'm afraid this thread has only a short term left. The very thought of Rudd resuming as PM is sickening. 



> JULIA Gillard will "read the riot act" to her most senior ministers over an explosive leak of secret Cabinet debate on asylum seeker policy.
> In a blow that further destabilises Ms Gillard's leadership, extraordinary detail revealing the bitter divide within Labor's senior ranks has emerged over a failed bid to re-open Nauru detention centre.
> The unprecedented leak has infuriated the Prime Minister's closest backers and opened up fresh factional wounds within the party.




Chris Bowen looks embarrassed; 








Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/pm-...ak/story-e6frfkw9-1226167645410#ixzz1atu8mFwf


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Don't give up, noco.  Now that Victoria Police are investigating Craig Thomson, he could yet be the government's undoing.
> 
> Then there's the possibility of Wilkie's poker machine 'reforms' not getting through in which case he will withdraw support for the government.
> 
> And then there's the inescapable fact that Labor are at war amongst themselves, viz just the latest disagreement between Chris Bowen and Gillard on immigration policy, plus our Kev and his machiavellian moves behind the scenes.
> 
> I'd say it would only take one more really bad Newspoll and it will be game on for Labor, especially now that they are obviously positioning Stephen Smith (poor bugger) to step in if there's a challenge from Rudd.




Julia, I am not sure if Craig Thomson is charged with fraud if he will be compelled to resgn or if we with have to wait for the court case. Gillard and Labor will continue to talk about the presumptiom of innocence untill proven guilty.

With Wilke, I believe they are trying to come to a compromise.

Yes, there could be an implosion in cabinet.

Lets hope one or all events takes place.


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> Julia, I am not sure if Craig Thomson is charged with fraud if he will be compelled to resgn or if we with have to wait for the court case. Gillard and Labor will continue to talk about the presumptiom of innocence untill proven guilty.
> 
> With Wilke, I believe they are trying to come to a compromise.
> 
> Yes, there could be an implosion in cabinet.
> 
> Lets hope one or all events takes place.




When Rudd becomes PM, as he surely will,  I doubt that he will command a majority in the house.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> When Rudd becomes PM, as he surely will,  I doubt that he will command a majority in the house.





If Rudd becomes PM, it is possible he would need to call an election  quickly  to capitalise on his high polling and before people remember why his polling was dropping when Gillard was sent in to help labor find it's way....

However, I understand there was a leadership poll in the last few days where Stephen Smith outpolled all others including Rudd.  Only time will tell...


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> If Rudd becomes PM, it is possible he would need to call an election  quickly  to capitalise on his high polling and before people remember why his polling was dropping when Gillard was sent in to help labor find it's way....
> 
> However, I understand there was a leadership poll in the last few days where Stephen Smith outpolled all others including Rudd.  Only time will tell...



Would ASF members perhaps record their view about Stephen Smith taking over?
I think it was Calliope who suggested he simply wasn't 'nasty enough' to do the job.

I get that.  But aren't we just all totally over all the nastiness and personal insults which seems to be taking the place of proper policy development?  And wouldn't therefore someone fairly calm and quiet natured like Mr Smith be quite welcome?

If he were to take the leadership and announce that the carbon tax will be put on hold until after the next election, and that the government will accede to the Libs' proviso that Nauru be used to ensure off shore processing, isn't there a reasonable chance that this would boost Labor's stakes considerably?

I'd personally feel encouraged by Mr Smith replacing either Gillard or Rudd, both of whom fill me with despair, and I'd guess that the electorate over all is completely sick of all the viciousness which has so characterised politics since Rudd first became Prime Minister.


----------



## Ferret

The next election is unwinnable for labor.  They would be better off keeping Smith unsullied and giving him the job of trying to revive their standing as leader of the opposition.


----------



## Julia

Ferret said:


> The next election is unwinnable for labor.  They would be better off keeping Smith unsullied and giving him the job of trying to revive their standing as leader of the opposition.



Agree, Ferret.  Your suggestion is probably a bit too sensible for Labor to adopt.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Would ASF members perhaps record their view about Stephen Smith taking over?
> I think it was Calliope who suggested he simply wasn't 'nasty enough' to do the job.
> 
> I get that.  But aren't we just all totally over all the nastiness and personal insults which seems to be taking the place of proper policy development?  And wouldn't therefore someone fairly calm and quiet natured like Mr Smith be quite welcome?
> 
> If he were to take the leadership and announce that the carbon tax will be put on hold until after the next election, and that the government will accede to the Libs' proviso that Nauru be used to ensure off shore processing, isn't there a reasonable chance that this would boost Labor's stakes considerably?
> 
> I'd personally feel encouraged by Mr Smith replacing either Gillard or Rudd, both of whom fill me with despair, and I'd guess that the electorate over all is completely sick of all the viciousness which has so characterised politics since Rudd first became Prime Minister.




I recall mentioning in two or three posts in recent weeks that if Labor dump Gillard and  the carbon tax and process asylum seekers in Nauru, their stakes would rise considerably above where they are now irrespect of who becomes leader. It may well save them from the disaster they are about to face with Gillard. However, with that in mind, they still could not win the next election come what may.


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> ..Chris Bowen looks embarrassed..



Many pages above, I said the victims are the Australian people and Chris Bowen. I still hold to that view. Someone with potential, but of the Right. Crucified by this appointment.  

The hidden agendas are as repellent as the public ones.

If I was in the caucus I would vote for and support Smith, as a unifying and experienced figure, a latter day Kim Beazley if you like. Interesting to hear Peter Van Onselen say over the weekend that Labor should never have ditched Kim Beazley, who let's face it was rating way better than Rudd or Gillard when dumped.

I predict the ALP would live to regret their foolishness if they return Rudd. Out of the frying pan, as the saying goes.

Worst Australian Govt in living memory, even worse than Whitlam. Continual smears against the Opposition Leader are the only shot left in their locker.

Also, those who say Bob Brown is running the govt need to take a closer look at Combet and Macklin.


----------



## noco

To the Labor Party cabinet............will just one of your members please pull the pin from that hand grenade and let it roll under the cabinet table...........Literally speaking of course.

To prolong the agony of this disfunctional government the more voters are becoming angry.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...id-cabinet-leaks/story-e6frgd0x-1226167984228


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> To the Labor Party cabinet............will just one of your members please pull the pin from that hand grenade and let it roll under the cabinet table...........Literally speaking of course.
> 
> To prolong the agony of this disfunctional government the more voters are becoming angry.




You seem to be in real pain. I think the best you can hope for, is for Steven Smith to head Labor in Opposition. There is no chance of Rudd ever settling for Opposition Leader. His overbearing presumption of superiority wouldn't wear it.

Literally? http://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> You seem to be in real pain. I think the best you can hope for, is for Steven Smith to head Labor in Opposition. There is no chance of Rudd ever settling for Opposition Leader. His overbearing presumption of superiority wouldn't wear it.
> 
> Literally? http://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally




I don't know about being in pain, but I do know I have become frustrated with such a disfunctional governemnt that has lost it's way and will cost you and I and 22,000,000 others heaps of money down the track. Don't you worry about that (AH LA JOE)

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/government-that-lost-its-way-opposition-that-cannot-lose/


----------



## Logique

This is an excellent historical perspective and a good summary of where Australia is at in year 2011.  Moving backwards together, as I like to describe it. 

'great leap' is of course used ironically, from Chinese history.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...the-trashy-1970s/story-e6frgd0x-1226171067564
*Julia Gillard's great leap backwards to the trashy 1970s* 
by: Greg Sheridan, Foreign Editor From: The Australian October 20, 2011

"...We have, as in the 70s, produced a destructive ideological Left. The Greens play the same role as did the Socialist Left of the Labor Party, in alliance with the communist groups, in the 70s, and indeed often they are direct family descendants or indeed ex-communists who have changed formal party allegiance. These forces represent a broad stream of essentially nihilist philosophical rejection of modern Western society and, as in the 70s, are given massive assistance by taxpayer-funded cultural organisations such as the ABC.

Our basic international image is changing fundamentally because of regressive government leadership. In some ways the Gillard government is intensely reactionary, following slavishly a wholly discredited economic and social model of four decades ago. We are stepping back two generations. It's a very bad way to govern a very lucky country."


----------



## drsmith

The ABC's Barry Cassidy now aknowledges the end of Gillard Labor, even if it's through the prism of sour grapes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-20/cassidy-coalition-numbers-game/3580504


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> The ABC's Barry Cassidy now aknowledges the end of Gillard Labor, even if it's through the prism of sour grapes.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-20/cassidy-coalition-numbers-game/3580504



Great regard for Barrie, but that piece in the Drum is a litany of wishful thinking from (imho) a left of centre viewpoint.  

For example, "...Abbott and the Coalition impacted on boat arrivals through its numbers in the Parliament, together with the Greens. Their implied strength caused the Government to abandon legislation that would have allowed for offshore processing and the adoption of the Malaysian agreement..." 

Really? One word for Barrie - Nauru.  Does Barrie really think that onshore processing is the wish of, or because of...the Coalition?


----------



## Knobby22

Like this article, especially this bit. 

Total approval/disapproval percentages were as follows: increased health funding 89-5; higher age pension 78-14; lifting superannuation to 12 per cent 75-13; managing the economy to keep unemployment and interest rates low 70-21; spending on school buildings 68-24; introducing a national disability insurance scheme 63-13; GFC stimulus spending 61-28; paid parental leave 60-30; taxing large profits of miners 58-29; building the national broadband network 54-34; stopping live cattle exports to tackle welfare concerns 53-34; abolishing WorkChoices 51-33. Only on sending asylum seekers to Malaysia (39-45) and introducing a carbon tax to tackle climate change (33-53) was Labor losing the policy argument.

How does one account for such strong support, by an absolute majority, for 12 out of 14 policies when the government and leader responsible for them are so unpopular? It's not that Abbott is wildly popular, although he has done a remarkable job of focusing attention on the government's most disliked policies. In this week's Age/Nielsen poll, Abbott trails Malcolm Turnbull by 44-28 per cent. His 54 per cent disapproval rating is the highest for an opposition leader since just before Turnbull was dumped.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-brand-race-20111019-1m80q.html#ixzz1bIPnmJic


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Great regard for Barrie, but that piece in the Drum is a litany of wishful thinking from (imho) a left of centre viewpoint.
> 
> For example, "...Abbott and the Coalition impacted on boat arrivals through its numbers in the Parliament, together with the Greens. Their implied strength caused the Government to abandon legislation that would have allowed for offshore processing and the adoption of the Malaysian agreement..."
> 
> Really? One word for Barrie - Nauru.  Does Barrie really think that onshore processing is the wish of, or because of...the Coalition?



A second is Greens.


----------



## Julia

Well, Knobby, just imagine how much more depressed would be the support for Ms Gillard and her party if the public actually liked Tony Abbott!

That the Opposition can still be so strongly in the two party preferred lead in the face of so many not being charmed by their leader says just as much about the government as it does about the opposition imo.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Well, Knobby, just imagine how much more depressed would be the support for Ms Gillard and her party if the public actually liked Tony Abbott!
> 
> That the Opposition can still be so strongly in the two party preferred lead in the face of so many not being charmed by their leader says just as much about the government as it does about the opposition imo.




Yes, its rather fascinating.


----------



## noco

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, its rather fascinating.





Well, it is the old old story. Many naive voters fall for charisma. If Abbott was a more handsome bloke with a toothy smile, sex appeal and mouthed off a heap of jovial BS, he would be more popular.

Voters should look at the capabilities of a leader. He obviously has done something right to have the party so far in front.

Many voters can't see the wood for the trees.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Well, it is the old old story. Many naive voters fall for charisma. If Abbott was a more handsome bloke with a toothy smile, sex appeal and mouthed off a heap of jovial BS, he would be more popular.
> 
> Voters should look at the capabilities of a leader. He obviously has done something right to have the party so far in front.
> 
> Many voters can't see the wood for the trees.



 Noco, I respect your view about Mr Abbott, but I think to attribute his lack of popularity to just his superficial characteristics is not really right.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my concerns are more about his apparent willingness to change his view according to the person/group he's speaking to or about.  This, imo, indicates a lack of conviction, something you could never have said about John Howard.   I would worry that this lack of conviction would inevitably lead to lack of authority in office, very similar to what we're seeing with Julia Gillard.

Am also less than comfortable with his ultra conservative attitudes about abortion, stem cell research etc.

Yes, he has been very successful as an opposition leader, but that's a very different matter from being a successful Prime Minister, imo.  He might rise to the position and do the job well, particularly if supported by a competent cabinet.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be all that much talent behind him either.


----------



## wayneL

Julia said:


> Noco, I respect your view about Mr Abbott, but I think to attribute his lack of popularity to just his superficial characteristics is not really right.
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else, but my concerns are more about his apparent willingness to change his view according to the person/group he's speaking to or about.  This, imo, indicates a lack of conviction, something you could never have said about John Howard.   I would worry that this lack of conviction would inevitably lead to lack of authority in office, very similar to what we're seeing with Julia Gillard.
> 
> Am also less than comfortable with his ultra conservative attitudes about abortion, stem cell research etc.
> 
> Yes, he has been very successful as an opposition leader, but that's a very different matter from being a successful Prime Minister, imo.  He might rise to the position and do the job well, particularly if supported by a competent cabinet.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be all that much talent behind him either.



Yeahbut Dullard, Swine et al have taken Oz so far to the left, we need a righty just to get us back to the middle again.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Well, it is the old old story. Many naive voters fall for charisma. If Abbott was a more handsome bloke with a toothy smile, sex appeal and mouthed off a heap of jovial BS, he would be more popular.
> 
> Voters should look at the capabilities of a leader. He obviously has done something right to have the party so far in front.
> 
> Many voters can't see the wood for the trees.




I agree with you noco.
The majority of people on this forum are trying to preempt what he will do, and feed on every comment he makes.
The media have brain washed them that way.
I worked for a company and when we were about to select personnel, everybody had a positive or negative comment about them.
What I found was that when you sat down with a person who had the opportunity to better himself, they always performed.
So after two disasters with Labor, why would Abbott not be a better PM than what Labor has provided?
He will work with his "team" and not as an individual. He has demonstrated that.
Just remember what toppled Howard was his belief in "me".
The man could not even hold his seat from a newbie.

Finally the game of the media, " it to compile words to sell papers or computer time", and it generally varies from the truth a little.
joea


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Yeahbut Dullard, Swine et al have taken Oz so far to the left, we need a righty just to get us back to the middle again.





Yep lets raise a tax on corporations and run a parental leave scheme.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Yep lets raise a tax on corporations and run a parental leave scheme.




All that is likely to be seen as very much secondary.

Abbott's first job is to rid this country of the unwanted carbon tax and re-instate the Pacific solution.

He will be seen as a national hero for those two things alone.


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> The media have brain washed them that way.



Perhaps give people credit for being able to think for themselves.  It's a bit insulting to suggest forum members can only parrot what is said by the media, which for that matter is very diverse in what it says.



> I worked for a company and when we were about to select personnel, everybody had a positive or negative comment about them.
> What I found was that when you sat down with a person who had the opportunity to better himself, they always performed.



So, from this singular experience with a particular company, you have deduced that all potential PM's will be entirely satisfactory?
Peculiar logic there, Joe.



> So after two disasters with Labor, why would Abbott not be a better PM than what Labor has provided?



Most likely he will.  But that need not blind people to his disattributes.



> He will work with his "team" and not as an individual. He has demonstrated that.



That's a really good point.  He has indeed united the team really well.



> Just remember what toppled Howard was his belief in "me".



True enough.  He fell in love with the job and developed an unrealistic sense of his own infallibility.  Had he handed over to Peter Costello, it's very unlikely the country would be in the mess it's in today.




> The man could not even hold his seat from a newbie.



Well, her success was very short lived.  



sails said:


> All that is likely to be seen as very much secondary.
> 
> Abbott's first job is to rid this country of the unwanted carbon tax and re-instate the Pacific solution.
> 
> He will be seen as a national hero for those two things alone.



Totally agree, Sails.


----------



## noco

joea said:


> I agree with you noco.
> The majority of people on this forum are trying to preempt what he will do, and feed on every comment he makes.
> The media have brain washed them that way.
> I worked for a company and when we were about to select personnel, everybody had a positive or negative comment about them.
> What I found was that when you sat down with a person who had the opportunity to better himself, they always performed.
> So after two disasters with Labor, why would Abbott not be a better PM than what Labor has provided?
> He will work with his "team" and not as an individual. He has demonstrated that.
> Just remember what toppled Howard was his belief in "me".
> The man could not even hold his seat from a newbie.
> 
> Finally the game of the media, " it to compile words to sell papers or computer time", and it generally varies from the truth a little.
> joea




Well, spoken Joe. If he does become Prime Minister, I am confident he will put his preempted critics to bed. The critics should let him prove himself before making judgement of what he can or cannot do.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> Abbott's first job is to rid this country of the unwanted carbon tax and re-instate the Pacific solution.




Yes, like the Gadarene swine.


----------



## Logique

IFocus said:


> Yep lets raise a tax on corporations and run a parental leave scheme.



I do not like this Abbott policy, and it needs to be revisited.  Not in love with Labor's policy either. 

The whole concept of paid maternity ('parental' is just spin sugar-coating) leave has gotten out of hand in contemporary Australia, it started at political correctness/vote buying,  and ended up at expensive/inequitable/unaffordable rort. 

The winners being Asian and sub continent countries, increasingly the beneficiaries of off-shoring of functions and processes.


----------



## Logique

This on top of everything else, they really are utterly clueless.  

Blind, bloody-minded ideology. Fairer distribution? This measure instead would deliver a gigantic boot to the derriere of the people most in need.  At least the Greens are against it. 

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Nat...urged_to_drop_private_health_fees_676273.html
BigPond News
*Govt urged to drop private health fees *
Saturday, October 22, 2011

"...'Any change to so-called high-income earners ... if those people drop their cover or reduce their cover, whatever happens it will have an impact on really the people who need insurance the most and they are often low-income earners or they are ill. 

'We are talking about price rises varying from as low as 10 per cent up to 43 per cent and that's on top of whatever underlying price increase happens.' 

Under the government's plans, people earning more than $80,000 and families on $160,000 would no longer qualify for the 30 per cent rebate from January next year. 

...The government argues the changes will save it $2.8 billion over four years and make the distribution of taxpayer money fairer.."


----------



## Julia

Why are the Greens against it?  As I understand their position, they want the 30% wiped entirely for everyone.  Isn't that much worse?


----------



## Logique

Yes good point Julia, 
as far as I can tell, the Greens oppose the increase to 1.5% Medicare surcharge on the grounds that it will drive customers away, yet support the dismantling of the the 30% rebate, a very cute but internally contradictory stance.


----------



## noco

If Julia was not an atheist, I bet she would praying for the Queen to stay a lot longer in Australia.
Nobody in the Labor Party are game to step out of line while Queen is here.

Poor Julia, she must be relieved to have the heat taken off her for a while.

A great distraction in deed.


----------



## noco

This Green/Labor socialist left wing government are not content with wasting $billions on hare brain schemes,  they are now wasting more money promoting mining in South Africa.

And can you believe it, they are stupid enough to try and get involved in the EU problems. What next??????????????




http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...uriermail/comments/lets_save_ourselves_first/


----------



## Julia

This is about two things.

1. Diverting attention from the government's utterly miserable standing in minds of the electorate.

2. Promoting Our Kev's campaign on the international stage.

They give no thought to the stupid waste of taxpayer dollars in the process.

Clearly they regard the electorate as stupid in their delusion that we do not see through this posturing.


----------



## noco

So if Kevin 11 misses out on a seat on the Un and also misses out on returning to the leadership of the Labor Party, he will be up the creek without a paddle.

So what next for Kevvie?


----------



## sails

noco said:


> So if Kevin 11 misses out on a seat on the Un and also misses out on returning to the leadership of the Labor Party, he will be up the creek without a paddle.
> 
> So what next for Kevvie?




I guess he could be leader of the opposition after the next election if his seat is the only safe one left...


----------



## bellenuit

sails said:


> I guess he could be leader of the opposition after the next election if his seat is the only safe one left...




Maybe he will be the opposition if his seat is the only safe one.


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> This is about two things.
> 
> 1. Diverting attention from the government's utterly miserable standing in minds of the electorate.
> 
> 2. Promoting Our Kev's campaign on the international stage.
> 
> They give no thought to the stupid waste of taxpayer dollars in the process.
> 
> Clearly they regard the electorate as stupid in their delusion that we do not see through this posturing.




I am not sure if the electorate is stupid, but somebody voted her in.
joea


----------



## sails

joea said:


> I am not sure if the electorate is stupid, but somebody voted her in.
> joea




She wasn't voted in any more than Abbott...lol

Two independents who seemingly betrayed their electorates propped her up into power. 
 The people certainly did not vote her in.


----------



## joea

sails said:


> She wasn't voted in any more than Abbott...lol
> 
> Two independents who seemingly betrayed their electorates propped her up into power.
> The people certainly did not vote her in.




Well Sails "I agree to disagree".
The voters got her to the line behind Abbott, then the Independents put a rope around her and pulled her across the line with a 4 wheel drive.
I hope it was not a TOYOTA.lol
joea


----------



## sails

joea said:


> Well Sails "I agree to disagree".
> The voters got her to the line behind Abbott, then the Independents put a rope around her and pulled her across the line with a 4 wheel drive.
> I hope it was not a TOYOTA.lol
> joea




Coalition was ahead in primary votes - here is the percentage of primary cotes followed by number of seats:  

Labor.... 	38.0%.... 	 		72 	
Coalition.... 	43.7%.... 			73 	
Greens ....	11.7%.... 	 			1 	
Others ....	6.6%....				4


http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/results/


There is a lot of emphasis on 2pp, however, primary votes tell us what people really want.  2pp tells us who leap frogged to the top and isn't always what voters want.  Wilke is a good example of getting a low primary vote and yet getting elected.

More on Wilke's vote count here: http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/guide/deni.htm


----------



## kavla1970

http://www.news.com.au/business/jul...-help-yourselves/story-e6frfm1i-1226176567667


Her Highness has spoken......Watch out Europe, Julia is mad!!!


----------



## wayneL

kavla1970 said:


> http://www.news.com.au/business/jul...-help-yourselves/story-e6frfm1i-1226176567667
> 
> 
> Her Highness has spoken......Watch out Europe, Julia is mad!!!




So what next if they tell Julia to go take a flying ~~~~?

Australia invades Europe?

Give me a break!  Laughable!


----------



## startrader

kavla1970 said:


> http://www.news.com.au/business/jul...-help-yourselves/story-e6frfm1i-1226176567667
> 
> 
> Her Highness has spoken......Watch out Europe, Julia is mad!!!




This is just cringeworthy.  What fool wrote this script for her!  This Labor party is such a joke!  How much longer do we have to put up with this circus???


----------



## breaker

voters voted for Kevin or really the labour party... Julia got the top gig after Kevin got the flick ....voters did not vote while Julia was the Labour party leader ...We also supposedly do not vote for leaders as in the US, as in a president


----------



## noco

The Red headed long nose show pony has become an authority on the EU affairs. I'll bet Angela is laughing her head off.

She is also "brown nosing" Obama and is seeking his support when he tours Australia.

Check Cory Bernadi's link below.




http://www.corybernardi.com/2011/10...m_campaign=Feed:+CoryBernardi+(Cory+Bernardi)


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> I am not sure if the electorate is stupid, but somebody voted her in.
> joea






sails said:


> She wasn't voted in any more than Abbott...lol
> 
> Two independents who seemingly betrayed their electorates propped her up into power.
> The people certainly did not vote her in.



Exactly Sails.  If we had a first past the post electoral system, Labor wouldn't have had a chance.
You know quite well how she acquired government, joe, so to say "somebody voted her in" unless you're referring to the Independents, is disingenuous.




wayneL said:


> So what next if they tell Julia to go take a flying ~~~~?
> 
> Australia invades Europe?
> 
> Give me a break!  Laughable!



How absolutely embarrassing.  
Seems to be another pathetic attempt to divert attention from the troubles right here in Australia.  This is the politician who said she wasn't much interested in foreign affairs.
So whacko, she has belatedly realised Kev  is a big threat, so she's attempting to get in first with rubbish like this to cut the ground from under his feet.

Why can't she see that she's just further destroying herself with faux remarks like this?


----------



## Calliope

Sarkozy and Merkel must feel suitably chastened tonight. A bogan ranga from a place called Orstralia has warned them to smarten up.

"We are putting the pressure on European leaders to stop muddling through and to get their house in order."

Perhaps they need a Carbon Tax.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-bailout-funds/story-fn59niix-1226176227658


----------



## moXJO

> ELITE bodyguards paid to take a bullet for the Prime Minister and other VIPs are facing salary cuts of up to 35 per cent under Australian Federal Police reforms.
> 
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/loc...ut/story-e6frfkvr-1226176758720#ixzz1bpmDYGSS




Great environment to dock their pay. :


----------



## joea

Well as far as I am concerned, Sails sums it up with Gillard getting 72 seats with the primary vote.
To me that is a pretty substantial vote force.

Considering Rudd was knifed in the back, she had no policy's, she was a liar then and still is, and to top it off the media went "mad" with the possibility of a "minority government".

So while the Labor MP'S won in their individual electorate, the whole world knew that she would be PM with a Labor win, and we knew in a couple of days with the body language of the independants and Gillard, she would be PM.

So it can be bent anyway you want it to be. Somebody voted her in.

And my point is "they did not stop to reconsider the consequences of Labor as economic managers".

So in another election how many of those voters are going to "eat craw" and change their vote?
Because at the next election she will have additional supporters from all the compensation packages she is so vocal about.
She will have supporters from "distributing the wealth".
That's why she is backing Obama before he arrives, as this will be a part of her campaign.
There is no doubt that Gillard would like a majority government, but she will take it anyway she can.

Finally she did not appoint a propaganda team for the cabron tax because it was just a "good idea" on the day.

joea


----------



## Calliope

Everyone's looking at Julia's legs. Perhaps she should wear a sari. And Tim should too, I reckon.


----------



## Logique

Honestly..  ..that photo of Tim is going straight to the Pool Room.

A rather good summary of Labor's leadership turmoil comes from (yes) Mark Latham. http://afr.com/p/opinion/smith_is_best_of_the_rest_for_labor_U9aHvrEcLAM2KQXIYqzj5N
*Smith is best of the rest for Labor*

Love to quote some excerpts for you, but the AFR are a bit touchy about that. 

Kevin Rudd might just be doing the dirty work for Smith and his backers. First bring on  a spill, then Smith as the compromise candidate, the third man. Latham says when it happens, it will happen quickly.


----------



## Calliope

Too much air travel plays havoc with the ankles.


----------



## sptrawler

It will be interesting to see how this goes. The Gillard government asked to reduce tax, that's a classic. In four years they have run up a huge deficit are introducing two new huge taxes and increasing marginal tax rates to pay for inept fiscal management.
Now local book sellers want a tax break, best of luck with that.  

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...vernment-advised/story-fn3dxiwe-1226190394588


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting to see how this goes. The Gillard government asked to reduce tax, that's a classic. In four years they have run up a huge deficit are introducing two new huge taxes and increasing marginal tax rates to pay for inept fiscal management.
> Now local book sellers want a tax break, best of luck with that.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...vernment-advised/story-fn3dxiwe-1226190394588




SP
I thought they called it reform not taxes.
joea


----------



## joea

Hi.
Now that the dust has settled on a carbon tax we can look on the achievements of Gillard.

If Labor is to be a two term government, first they need to accumulate money in their coffers( to cover some of their blunders & to move forward.)

Well they have processed two very large taxes(CO2 Tax $ Mining Tax). So they achieved the first part.(will be rolling in money) Gillards achievements.
To achieve the second term, how are they going to do it?

Well I would suggest we watch Bill Shorten and his agenda. Because having ripped off everybody and sundry, they are going to give back some of the booty. "to buy some votes."

Now we all understand that  there will be compensation (for CO2 Tax), and all the leveled headed people understand the majority will still be out of pocket.
But not the Labor supporters. Or the Green supporters, or the people who do not want to work, or the undecided, etc, etc.

Bill Shorten will attempt to do 2 things, prior to the next election.
1 To reclaim the primary vote majority numbers from the Greens & the undecided &
   swingers..
2  Bless the palms of voters( who can be reclaimed) to achieve 1.

Because" IF " Gillard is still on the "nose" prior to the next election, her replacement will have compiled the policy's to gain the support of the voters required to get them across the line. Just remember the lodge is to  be renovated, and the perception of Julia Gillard will be, "it will be ready for her next term", or for the next Labor PM.

Rudd is gone and "dusted".
Cream is too old.
Combet is Labor's "fixer."
Forget about any the media bring out of the cupboard as the Australian suggests today.

So there we have it.
You have to admit that "hard work always precedes greatness".
So is the Australian voter going to give Labor the opportunity to think they have achieved "greatness"?

I am just asking the question!!!!
The first hint from the "Shorten corner" will be where he is positioned in a reshuffle.

joea


----------



## Calliope

How much longer will Gillard persist with her attitude they we can achieve a positive result in Afghanistan. I saw Stephen Smith interviewed on 7.30 report last night. I think he is just going through the motions. His heart is not in it. Gillard has to retreat, but she is firmly wedged by Bob Brown. To be seen to adopting another Green policy has a bad look.



> But along with the respect we owe our soldiers, here is one basic requirement: we must not commit them to battle when there is no compelling military or strategic reason to do so. Where there was once a military rationale, and that rationale disappears, our soldiers need to be redeployed.
> 
> Afghanistan has reached that stage now. Yesterday an Afghan National Army soldier shot and wounded three Aussie Diggers. Ten days ago, another ANA soldier, a veteran of several years service in the ANA, shot and killed three of our men.
> 
> This follows a pattern of incidents in Afghanistan in which the Taliban has infiltrated the ANA and dozens of coalition soldiers have been killed by ANA soldiers or people in ANA uniforms. These are the people we are training, to whom we will hand security responsibility in 2014.
> 
> *Australian soldiers no longer serve any military purpose in Afghanistan. There is a broad strategic purpose and that is purely to continue to express political and military solidarity with the US as it pulls out of Afghanistan by 2014.*



 (My bolds)


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-to-kill-diggers/story-e6frg76f-1226190608369


----------



## sptrawler

Really good reading for all those that voted for Labor

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...worse-is-to-come/story-e6freooo-1226193590276

And lets not forget they have reduced the amount you can salary sacrifice into your super, just in case you thought you might like to retire early.
I wonder if Julia, Bob, Ferguson, Combet etc are going to forgo their tax payer funded indexed pensions.LOL
I also love the last bit about her uncompromising message to people who want to come to Australia. Maybe she should put a footnote, "This does not include boat people who come through Christmas Island"


----------



## sails

Is this a cover-up?  

From Bolt's blog:



> Having watched yesterday’s Question Time in the Senate, I agree there is something very odd about the Gillard Government’s cancellation of the tender process for the Australia Network - just as the $233 million contract was about to be won by Sky News (part-owned by News Ltd) rather than then ABC.




An excerpt of Senator Simon Birmingham’s speech:



> In regards to the Australia Network contract, what we are witnessing at present is a textbook cover-up of a corrupted process by a government mired in a dodgy and dirty deal.  What we have seen is a three-step move to conceal the facts behind the scandal that is plaguing this $223 million corrupted tender for the Australia Network. Chapter 1 of the textbook cover-up that the government is engaged in was to claim that everything””not just the purely commercial-in-confidence material of the tenderers””associated with the tender, the now extinguished tender, remains confidential.




Read more of the Senator's speech here: What’s the truth behind the cancelling - again - of this tender?


----------



## Logique

Greens Party - why so negative? Bob Brown's words rushed to air by the adoring (non-hate) media. Sen Brown doesn't spare PM Gillard. Of course, along with everything else, it is partly the fault of Mr Abbott. 

For the info of Sen Brown, this Australian is neither horrified nor appalled. Nuclear power is rather effective at reducing CO2 emissions, which the Greens claim to care about.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3366144.htm
*Greens concerned by uranium push*
Alexandra Kirk reported this story on Tuesday, November 15, 2011

"..BOB BROWN: Well this is a clear plan by Julia Gillard to reverse Kevin Rudd's decision and to go along with the George W Bush decision to supply nuclear materials to India despite the fact it hasn't signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. It's going to be pretty horrifying for many Australians.

ALEXANDRA KIRK: But the Government could sell uranium to India without any legislation through the Parliament, that's correct?

BOB BROWN: Yes it can do that and…

ALEXANDRA KIRK: And you expect them to do that?

BOB BROWN: One would expect it will have the support of Tony Abbott. It'll be Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott really feeling the same way here, although the Australian people won't agree with that. Certainly a great number of Labor voters are going to be appalled by the idea of Julia Gillard taking up this option.."


----------



## sails

Interesting article by Gerard Henderson in the SMH about labor's pick up in the polls.  It seems it is more hype than substance as labor's primary vote would still leave them in pretty poor shape if an election were to happen soon.

Here's a snippet:



> On any objective analysis, the combination of Newspoll and Herald/Nielsen - along with the Morgan and Essential Media polls - indicate Labor is recovering somewhat from a low base and the Coalition is performing well. Yet this is not the tone of recent media commentary, much of which suggests Tony Abbott has stumbled.




Read full article: The media are picking up good vibrations but can't shake off the facts


----------



## joea

Nobody should underestimate Julia Gillard!

When the time comes for her to start ticking the boxes be very observant!

joea


----------



## IFocus

Selling hot rocks to India could this be the end of Abbott, a Labor leader starting to be pragmatic, It has to go to the vote at the national conference 1st.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Selling hot rocks to India could this be the end of Abbott, a Labor leader starting to be pragmatic, It has to go to the vote at the national conference 1st.




Haha IFocus - do you guys ever get Abbott off your minds?  

I reckon he must be doing pretty good to have labor/green supporters so obsessed with his demise.  It's been a massive effort from the left to try and bring him down.  

Anyway, are you labor/greens happy with Gillard's decision re uranium?  I would have thought there would be a fair of of internal resistance to this?


----------



## Glen48

A truck driver is stuck in traffic suddenly there is knock on the window he winds down the window.
A man tells him terrorist have taken on parliament house and will set fire to Gillard and Co unless they receive $10M 

we are looking for donations.. the driver asks what the average donation… 

about 1 gallon he replies.


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> Nobody should underestimate Julia Gillard!
> 
> When the time comes for her to start ticking the boxes be very observant!
> 
> joea



Why now and not before ?

There have been so many issues where she could have ticked the boxes.

A leopard does not change it spots.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> Selling hot rocks to India could this be the end of Abbott, a Labor leader starting to be pragmatic, It has to go to the vote at the national conference 1st.






drsmith said:


> Why now and not before ?
> 
> There have been so many issues where she could have ticked the boxes.
> 
> A leopard does not change it spots.



I agree with IF here.  There is a decided change in Julia Gillard.  It's as though the legislating of the carbon tax has given her a sense of authority she so lacked before.

This is probably enhanced by Tony Abbott apparently being out of the country and thus the opposition rendered invisible.

As the recent polls are showing, Ms Gillard seems to have moved on to become more assured.  There has also been a noticeable improvement in her delivery.  The slow, droning monotone has been replaced by a more normal presentation, albeit still with the ghastly accent.

And she has now picked two issues where she will clearly win.
Gay marriage:  She has walked a sensible line of compromise by saying she will allow a conscience vote, whilst making it clear she's personally against this, thus shoring up support from the Right.

Uranium to India:  Again, as IF says, this is simply being pragmatic and sensible.
Such a decision is imo long overdue and will get the support of the Coalition, leaving The Greens out in the cold.  (Hallelujah!)

All up, much can still fall apart, but in the face of nothing in particular being offered by the Coalition, it looks rather as though Ms Gillard has found a secure footing for the immediate future.

I could, of course, be totally wrong.


----------



## Ferret

Julia said:


> Uranium to India:  Again, as IF says, this is simply being pragmatic and sensible.
> Such a decision is imo long overdue and will get the support of the Coalition,




I'm waiting to see if Tony Abbott opposes this.  That would be hilarious!


----------



## Logique

Bad policy is bad policy. The Left's schoolyard taunts at Missterr Abbott will be seen for what they are when we get a chance at ballot box. And yes, India deserves an apology for the previous ban. 



> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/
> ..And so we got a [uranium export] ban that even Julia Gillard seems now to agree is nuts and must change.
> 
> But now we should ask her the question Rudd dodged: if nuclear is good for India, and all the other countries to which we sell uranium, why does Labor still ban it for us?
> 
> We may be owed two sorries.."


----------



## joea

Ferret said:


> I'm waiting to see if Tony Abbott opposes this.  That would be hilarious!




Julie Bishop has already stated that it should be implemented immediately, and should not have to go to a union delegation.
But already the two union power brokers have supported it.(over night).
So its done and dusted.
joea


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> Why now and not before ?
> 
> There have been so many issues where she could have ticked the boxes.
> 
> A leopard does not change it spots.




Hi.
Not long ago ASF's Julia compiled a post on why she thought the political landscape was changing.

At the same time Gillard seemed to have new confidence.
Gillard and Obama are both campaigning for their political future.

Gillard has made comments on both Trade and Uranium sales since she has been exposed to Obama.

With the opposition's support she can take some policy's through the House Of Reps. and the Senate. She will now do this.

In doing so she will distance herself and Labor, from Bob Brown and the Greens.

Why?. Because Gillard has also got a minder grooming her, and at this point in time her minder is doing better with her than Peta Credlin is with Abbott.

The next election is Queensland, and Katter is going to take a few vote from Labor and LNP. Therefore Labor is back in with a chance(Gillard thinks).
Already Gillard has said Bligh has to change her stance on Uranium.

So my perception is Gillard is starting to tick the boxes for the next Federal Election by attempting to get Labor over the line in Qld.

After all the 2018 Commonwealth Games has been won by Qld.
If Bligh is on the nose, she will stand down for her 2IC.
Gee its pretty clear the campaigning has started with a media release on water release to protect Brisbane before the wet season.
One would think that should be "business as usual".
joea


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Selling hot rocks to India could this be the end of Abbott, a Labor leader starting to be pragmatic, It has to go to the vote at the national conference 1st.




I would think another backflip on labor policy won't help Gillard.  And it seems that 







> "the US, under President Barack Obama, has been pursuing a closer partnership with India and considers Australia an integral part of its strategy".



  From Paul Kelly - excerpt below found on Bolt's Blog:



> The truth is that Gillard will be converting Labor to (John) Howard’s policy. This is nothing but a humiliating Labor recant. It came to office, boldly repudiated Howard’s position and four sorry years later Gillard must play the hero to get Labor to submit to this retreat.
> 
> As for Howard, he decided in 2006 that ties with India had reached tipping point. “This was a big prize,” Howard said of the export opportunity India offered. Now consider what Gillard said yesterday: “Selling uranium to India will be good for the Australian economy and good for Australian jobs.” When did Labor discover this astonishing truth? Only when it decided its ideological fixation was too absurd.




Read more with interesting links and some history on this issue:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/deputy_uranium_salesman/

Hmmm... maybe Obama can ask her to re-instate the Pacific Solution while he's at it.


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> Why now and not before ?
> 
> There have been so many issues where she could have ticked the boxes.
> 
> A leopard does not change it spots.




A leopard does not have to change its spots, if its getting smarter with each meal.
joea

The next federal election is not going to be about "integrity", it will be about jobs, compensation and living standards.
Where is the money coming from, "mining tax and carbon tax".


----------



## Calliope

Tim Mathieson steps in dog sh*t;


----------



## Julia

Ferret said:


> I'm waiting to see if Tony Abbott opposes this.  That would be hilarious!



He wouldn't.  It was originally Coalition policy to deal with India.



joea said:


> Why?. Because Gillard has also got a minder grooming her, and at this point in time her minder is doing better with her than Peta Credlin is with Abbott.



Very well put, Joe.  Ms Gillard's new adviser is making a real difference.



> The next election is Queensland, and Katter is going to take a few vote from Labor and LNP.



Hope not, but you may be right as far as FNQ is concerned.  



> So my perception is Gillard is starting to tick the boxes for the next Federal Election by attempting to get Labor over the line in Qld.



Insightful suggestion.  The disarray in Qld's opposition could even let Anna back in for another term.


----------



## joea

Pol in Courier mail.
Would you vote for Bob Katter Party.
Yes 36%(1017)
No 63.9%(1801)

Mulgrave Seat
ALP 32%
LNP 36%
Australian Party 22%

joea


----------



## sails

Not everyone in the ALP is happy with their leader's uranium backflip. 



> Transport Minister Anthony Albanese was the first Cabinet member to speak out against the decision, while Mr Rudd said he would challenge the position at the next ALP national conference




Read more from PerthNow: Kevin Rudd fumes over PM Julia Gillard's uranium backflip


----------



## joea

sails said:


> Not everyone in the ALP is happy with their leader's uranium backflip.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more from PerthNow: Kevin Rudd fumes over PM Julia Gillard's uranium backflip




Well they are both weak links in Labor, would she be concerned.?
joea


----------



## boofhead

A similar pattern happened when Abbott left for overseas in the past. Seems the opposition loses its voice when Abbott is not around to say something. It makes Abbott's leadership seem a little like Rudd's.


----------



## bellenuit

Perhaps if Abbott could come up with some excuse to now support the refugee legislation changes so that Gillard could use Malaysia, that might be enough to cause a major rift in the Labor part between Gillard and the Left (and Greens). Perhaps the Greens might even withdraw support if there are two major policy issues (Uranium and Malaysia) that they vehemently disagree with.


----------



## sails

bellenuit said:


> Perhaps if Abbott could come up with some excuse to now support the refugee legislation changes so that Gillard could use Malaysia, that might be enough to cause a major rift in the Labor part between Gillard and the Left (and Greens). Perhaps the Greens might even withdraw support if there are two major policy issues (Uranium and Malaysia) that they vehemently disagree with.




Where will the greens go?  I think they need labor more than labor needs them.  Much like the independents, if they withdraw support that would bring on a new election and all these minor entities lose their day in the sun too soon...

I can see Katter aiming for balance of power.  Again, I think it is wrong that minor parties can rule the country when they only receive a small fraction of the total national votes.


----------



## Wysiwyg

boofhead said:


> Seems the *opposition* loses its voice when Abbott is not around to say something.



 Opposition being T. Abbot's main communication to Australians. Opposes everything Labor announces. Probably waiting to nearer election time to actually present some sort of alternative policy. Bit vacuous too.


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> A leopard does not have to change its spots, if its getting smarter with each meal.
> joea
> 
> The next federal election is not going to be about "integrity", it will be about jobs, compensation and living standards.
> Where is the money coming from, "mining tax and carbon tax".



Gillard Labor is not getting smarter with each meal, or should I say each mess ?

The next election will be about integrity. A party cannot go to the people and blatently lie about such a major tax reform as a carbon tax and then pretend the people will go along with them. They are dreaming.

Such a betrayal is the kind of thing that will raise concerns about jobs and living standards. What will they do if we elect them again ? 

Just because Labor has had a short period without the wheels falling off does not instantly make it a new or smarter beast.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Gillard Labor is not getting smarter with each meal, or should I say each mess ?
> 
> The next election will be about integrity. A party cannot go to the people and blatently lie about such a major tax reform as a carbon tax and then pretend the people will go along with them. They are dreaming.
> 
> Such a betrayal is the kind of thing that will raise concerns about jobs and living standards. What will they do if we elect them again ?
> 
> Just because Labor has had a short period without the wheels falling off does not instantly make it a new or smarter beast.




Absolutely correct drsmith, by the next election the cat will be out of the bag with regard overseas workers.IMHO
They have proven already they have no loyalty and I feel the rank and file will be on the recieving end of the next backflip.


----------



## sptrawler

I can't understand why the Qantas workers haven't jumped on this.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...worse-is-to-come/story-e6freooo-1226193590276

If that isn't reading them their horoscope, I don't know what is.


----------



## joea

Hi.
I thought the biggest betrayal in Australian politics was the removal of Kevin Rudd.
Following this the Australian voter put Gillard close enough to power, she was dragged over the line.

In the last few months the Labor party has implemented new tactics.
e.g. 1 Gillard is speaking differently.
      2 Her gestures when she speaks is different.
      3 On her announcement of the Uranium to India, the two Labor power brokers  supported her in different media presentations.(within 24 hrs.)
4 She is taking Coalition policy"s and implementing them.

Well "hello", I do not think the voter is going to miss this.

It has been explained, "and quite clearly" that her promise was broken because of pressure from the Greens. Now we have the  Bob Katter issue.

So if I was looking at the "forest and not the trees", I would say the biggest obstacle to removing Labor from power, is Tony Abbott.
Labors policy's and handling of the "mini-budget" has to be countered by Abbott "and then some".
If the Australian voter were to create history it should have removed Labor after one term. If they want to create history, then they can elect Abbott and his party.
The history would be electing a PM more unpopular than the sitting one.

The Australian voter could always change its mind on Abbott. Is that likely to happen.?

I see mention of the Labor left. If anybody thinks that the Labor left is going to take a pay cut after the next election because of "fickle" beliefs, then think again.

One thing that can be agreed is, the Qld. election will give a better outlook of the future Federal situation. And how Labor reacts to Bob Brown in the next 12 months.

Just remember the last time I went to Woolworth's I had to pay with with money.
Integrity purchased me nothing.
joea


----------



## Logique

4.25pm: First costume change of the day. Quentin Bryce sported a bright yellow outfit at the airport, but is now decked out in bright orange with white polka dots for the official welcome. That puts here on a par with Dolly Parton during last night's concert for costume changes.
It is the same jacket outfit she wore for the Queen and Prince Philip during their recent tour. But she has mixed it up with a different skirt, just to keep things fresh.
Was it planned or did she spill some coffee on the way back from the airport? Let the theories begin...
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/live-barack-obamas-australia-visit-20111116-1ni9j.html#ixzz1ducFtdUG


----------



## Calliope

I think Obama's decision to visit  Australia and to rotate 2,500  Marines through Darwin, was something we could do without. 



> In his speech to the parliament, he referred to ''our new posture here in Australia'' as something that would bring the two countries' militaries closer together and allow the two nations to ''respond faster to the full range of challenges.''




And did Obama tell Gillarrd what this "full range of challenges" is?. 

The way they couldn't keep their hands off each other was sickening.






Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...of-the-free-20111117-1njy8.html#ixzz1dwbZS200


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> Hi.
> I thought the biggest betrayal in Australian politics was the removal of Kevin Rudd.
> Following this the Australian voter put Gillard close enough to power, she was dragged over the line.
> 
> In the last few months the Labor party has implemented new tactics.
> e.g. 1 Gillard is speaking differently.
> 2 Her gestures when she speaks is different.
> 3 On her announcement of the Uranium to India, the two Labor power brokers  supported her in different media presentations.(within 24 hrs.)
> 4 She is taking Coalition policy"s and implementing them.
> 
> Well "hello", I do not think the voter is going to miss this.
> 
> It has been explained, "and quite clearly" that her promise was broken because of pressure from the Greens. Now we have the  Bob Katter issue.
> 
> So if I was looking at the "forest and not the trees", I would say the biggest obstacle to removing Labor from power, is Tony Abbott.
> Labors policy's and handling of the "mini-budget" has to be countered by Abbott "and then some".
> If the Australian voter were to create history it should have removed Labor after one term. If they want to create history, then they can elect Abbott and his party.
> The history would be electing a PM more unpopular than the sitting one.
> 
> The Australian voter could always change its mind on Abbott. Is that likely to happen.?
> 
> I see mention of the Labor left. If anybody thinks that the Labor left is going to take a pay cut after the next election because of "fickle" beliefs, then think again.
> 
> One thing that can be agreed is, the Qld. election will give a better outlook of the future Federal situation. And how Labor reacts to Bob Brown in the next 12 months.
> 
> Just remember the last time I went to Woolworth's I had to pay with with money.
> Integrity purchased me nothing.
> joea



If the Coalition was to slip to a point where it was behind Labor on 2PP for any sustained period of time, Tony Abbott as opposition leader would simply be replaced.

While you can't physically buy anything with integrity, money and integrity are not mutually exclusive as it is our political leaders that tax us and spend that money.


----------



## sails

Looks like Obama doesn't quite know what to do here - he's not putting his arm around her...






http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ut_do_not_forget_the_hypocrisy_or_challenges/


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> If the Coalition was to slip to a point where it was behind Labor on 2PP for any sustained period of time, Tony Abbott as opposition leader would simply be replaced.
> 
> While you can't physically buy anything with integrity, money and integrity are not mutually exclusive as it is our political leaders that tax us and spend that money.




drsmith
Tony Abbott can "simply" be replaced by whom?
If its simple, then there must be an obvious successor. Please enlighten us.

Turnbull is a pushover.
Hockey has no guts(political, plenty of the other).
Bishop. I do not think so.

You mention we are taxed by the political leaders. EXACTLY. And the Australian voter will be compensated by the Labor government as she has promised.
MY point is, she is over taxing us, then buying (or will), back votes by the way of compensation. Will the people see through this. She has explained it as taking it from the big miners, so the people will accept that.

Gillard has implemented two major taxes. But already there exist the legislation to do  exactly that. However she is doing it in a way to bypass the states.
I still see the Qld. election as the make or break for Labor.

Maybe Abbott has a box of tricks that he is going to open. I hope so, and soon.
I get this strong feeling the Abbott camp have decided to give her a little rope  to see if Labor implodes.
On a lighter note if Katter campaigns on flying fox solutions, then he should go well.
joea


----------



## Logique

This Presidential visit was final proof of two things:

our leftist media
the hypocisy of the Left
Democrat President, no problem, Bob Brown as quiet as a lamb. US Marines in Darwin, how many would you like sir. US forces give the nod. Oh well, when Kristina Keneally is the Member for Kingsford Smith, she may adopt a more consistent line.

Quavering voice and sycophantic pawing, let's not highlight that.

Contrast with the visit of President Bush to PM Howard, where we saw Bob Brown using the Australian Parliament like a petulant schoolboy.


----------



## Calliope

While Gillard gazed at Obama with rapturous eyes she probably didn't enjoy his espousal of the freedoms.




> "Certain rights are universal, among them freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and the freedom of citizens to choose their own leaders," the US President told our legislators.
> 
> "These are not American rights or Australian rights or Western rights. They are human rights. They stir in every soul."




Julia is a bit iffy on some of those freedoms...especially freedom of the press and freedom of speech. And of course we didn't chose our own leader. Brown, Oakeshott and Windsor did that for us.


----------



## wayneL

Calliope said:


> While Gillard gazed at Obama with rapturous eyes she probably didn't enjoy his espousal of the freedoms.




She knows he doesn't really mean it.


----------



## Logique

Once again the facts overwhelm Leftist propaganda, but don't hold your breath waiting for an apology, and certainly not from Helen Caldicott, described in the article as an "anti-nuke hysteric", who must have been beside herself at such a serendipitous opportunity, or so she thought.


> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/
> After all that irresponsible and despicable fear-mongering, the New Scientist reports the comforting facts:
> The fallout from the radiation leak at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear reactor in Japan may be less severe than predicted.
> Radiology researcher Ikuo Kashiwakura of Hirosaki University, Japan, and colleagues responded immediately to the disaster, travelling south to Fukushima prefecture to measure radiation levels in more than 5000 people there between 15 March and 20 June.
> 
> They found *just 10 people *with unusually high levels of radiation, but those levels were *still below the threshold *at which acute radiation syndrome sets in and destroys the gastrointestinal tract.
> 
> Geiger-counter readings categorised all others in the area at a “no contamination level”.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique, You are reading Andrew Bolt and he is practising his normal distortion skills.
I am not anti-nuclear but to suggest the incident is minor and not worth worrying about is pure bunkum. I feel sorry for the Japanese.  

Only 5000 were tested and 1 on 500 had high radiation levels.  Wouldn't you consider that bad!!

I would also suggest that the ones that did get their gastrointestinal tract damaged were in hospital getting treated, not walking around waiting to be random tested. 

Also radiation builds up over time as you ingest it.  Do you think they would get the same results now?  Do you think cancer rates might increase due to the disaster?

Don't let the facts overwhelm rightist propaganda either.  I wouldn't eat any food produced anywhere near that area and I take my food seriously!


----------



## demiser

Knobby22 said:


> Also radiation builds up over time as you ingest it.




Radiation does not build up over time, however both the damage radiation causes, as well as the radioactive material itself can be accumulative.  This of course varies greatly with the type of radioactive material, as some material the body might keep, other material will just be expelled in the usual fashion.  This also does not take into consideration any of the radioactive material that humans need as part of a healthy diet (iodine, potassium, radon, etc), or the different properties (half life, strength, type of ionising radiation) that the material might have.

Now by no means am I saying it is healthy to be nuked, and I'm not advocating that we all start eating radioactive material by the hand full, HOWEVER, a lot of the radiation we have been seeing (if the reports can be believed) are not dangerous, and you would get a higher exposure from having an x-ray taken.  All of the above then further pales into comparison when comparing against something like a CT scan.



Knobby22 said:


> I wouldn't eat any food produced anywhere near that area and I take my food seriously!



As stated above, a lot of healthy fruit and veg should be radioactive to some extent, it's when it's not, that I'd start to worry, and question how good it actually is for you.



Knobby22 said:


> Don't let the facts overwhelm rightist propaganda either.



As you read these posts, I hope for your sake that you don't have a laptop sitting on your lap.  If you do, I can pm you a link to a guy that sells lead under pants and foil hats.

In all serious though, although radiation can be hazardous, for a member of the general public, there are a lot of other things I'd want to be worried about first.


----------



## bandicoot76

wayneL said:


> She knows he doesn't really mean it.




couldnt have put it better myself!!!


----------



## bandicoot76

Logique said:


> This Presidential visit was final proof of two things:
> 
> our leftist media
> the hypocisy of the Left
> .




the Left Vs Right paradigm is pre-fabricated rubbish! the reality should be citizen Vs authority

the rothschilds banking dynasty funded the bolshevic revolution (communist Left) in order to plunder the romanov royal fortune that was convieiently invested in their banks

the rothschild banking system funded hitlers national socialist party (nazi Right) through one of their minions, the warburg banking family, at the same time they funded the allies. max warburg was also the cheif of the german secret police!

as a side note the rockefeller family also supported hitler through standard oil funding & sharing technology (oil from coal) to fuel the nazi war machine. 

off topic i know but its good to know your real enemy! left Vs Right is just a myth to keep the people divided so as to keep their attention from the true villians who have been causing global chaos through-out history.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> I think Obama's decision to visit  Australia and to rotate 2,500  Marines through Darwin, was something we could do without.
> 
> 
> 
> And did Obama tell Gillarrd what this "full range of challenges" is?.
> 
> The way they couldn't keep their hands off each other was sickening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...of-the-free-20111117-1njy8.html#ixzz1dwbZS200




No wonder Timmy walked back to the lodge after watching Obama and Gillard kissing and cuddling every time they met. He was either disgusted or a little jealous maybe.


----------



## noco

Geez, I hope Timmy went to Bali. Michelle is back in Washington.


----------



## bandicoot76

a follow on from my earlier LvR post..... i'm just sayin! 


1848: Karl Marx, an Ashkenazi Jew, publishes, "The Communist Manifesto."  Interestingly at the same time as he is working on this, Karl Ritter of Frankfurt University was writing the antithesis which would form the basis for Freidrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's,  "Nietzscheanism."  This Nietzecheanism was later developed into Fascism and then into Nazism and was used to forment the first and second world wars. 

Marx, Ritter, and Nietzsche were all funded and under the instruction of the Rothschilds.  The idea was that those who direct the overall conspiracy could use the differences in those two so-called ideologies to enable them to divide larger and larger factions of the human race into opposing camps so that they could be armed and then brainwashed into fighting and destroying each other, and particularly, to destroy all political and religious institutions.  The same plan put forward by Weishaupt in 1776.


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> drsmith
> Tony Abbott can "simply" be replaced by whom?
> If its simple, then there must be an obvious successor. Please enlighten us.
> 
> Turnbull is a pushover.
> Hockey has no guts(political, plenty of the other).
> Bishop. I do not think so.



No coalitition leader has to be perfect as Labor is far from perfect.



joea said:


> You mention we are taxed by the political leaders. EXACTLY. And the Australian voter will be compensated by the Labor government as she has promised.
> MY point is, she is over taxing us, then buying (or will), back votes by the way of compensation. Will the people see through this. She has explained it as taking it from the big miners, so the people will accept that.



Will voters trust the compensation on a carbon tax that she said she would not introduce before the election ?

Rember too that for many, the compensation is partial or not at all and with the intention of the carbon tax to rise, it's real value reduced over time.



joea said:


> Gillard has implemented two major taxes. But already there exist the legislation to do  exactly that. However she is doing it in a way to bypass the states.



The mining tax in its present form was a quick political fix. 

There are question marks over what it will raise (in the media) and the states can erode its base by increasing royalties.



joea said:


> I still see the Qld. election as the make or break for Labor.
> 
> Maybe Abbott has a box of tricks that he is going to open. I hope so, and soon.
> *I get this strong feeling the Abbott camp have decided to give her a little rope  to see if Labor implodes.*
> On a lighter note if Katter campaigns on flying fox solutions, then he should go well.
> joea



I did dee a media report late last week about Julia Gillard calling a snap poll for Feb next year.

I can't find it as Google will no longer search news articles (at least on my PC).


----------



## sails

noco said:


> No wonder Timmy walked back to the lodge after watching Obama and Gillard kissing and cuddling every time they met. He was either disgusted or a little jealous maybe.




Don't know the source - was found on an email:


----------



## Mrmagoo

bandicoot76 said:


> the Left Vs Right paradigm is pre-fabricated rubbish! the reality should be citizen Vs authority
> 
> the rothschilds banking dynasty funded the bolshevic revolution (communist Left) in order to plunder the romanov royal fortune that was convieiently invested in their banks
> 
> the rothschild banking system funded hitlers national socialist party (nazi Right) through one of their minions, the warburg banking family, at the same time they funded the allies. max warburg was also the cheif of the german secret police!
> 
> as a side note the rockefeller family also supported hitler through standard oil funding & sharing technology (oil from coal) to fuel the nazi war machine.
> 
> off topic i know but its good to know your real enemy! left Vs Right is just a myth to keep the people divided so as to keep their attention from the true villians who have been causing global chaos through-out history.




Well it is better that they do it through banking, than the old fashioned way, which was sword, rifle, artillery, tank, or missile.... take your pick.

I'd rather bankers...


----------



## trainspotter

Timmy to do Michelle's hair like the movie "There's something about Mary"


----------



## Calliope

Obama takes a dim view of his Julia putting her hands on Wen Jiabao.








http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/gallery-e6frg6n6-1226200573940?page=1


----------



## kavla1970

bandicoot76 said:


> a follow on from my earlier LvR post..... i'm just sayin!
> 
> 
> 1848: Karl Marx, an Ashkenazi Jew, publishes, "The Communist Manifesto."  Interestingly at the same time as he is working on this, Karl Ritter of Frankfurt University was writing the antithesis which would form the basis for Freidrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's,  "Nietzscheanism."  This Nietzecheanism was later developed into Fascism and then into Nazism and was used to forment the first and second world wars.
> 
> Marx, Ritter, and Nietzsche were all funded and under the instruction of the Rothschilds.  The idea was that those who direct the overall conspiracy could use the differences in those two so-called ideologies to enable them to divide larger and larger factions of the human race into opposing camps so that they could be armed and then brainwashed into fighting and destroying each other, and particularly, to destroy all political and religious institutions.  The same plan put forward by Weishaupt in 1776.




Fasinating. Thanks for this.


----------



## bandicoot76

Mrmagoo said:


> Well it is better that they do it through banking, than the old fashioned way, which was sword, rifle, artillery, tank, or missile.... take your pick.
> 
> I'd rather bankers...




you kinda missed the point there i think mate, who do you think funds the "rifle, artillerey, tank & missile"? the only difference now is that muslim ppl are the "enemy".  how many of the 1.5million ppl killed in iraq had anything to do with 9/11 do you think? but who makes a killing (literaly) out of the chaos of war? i'll leave that to you to discover for your self if your really interested... which most ppl seem not to be.
throughout history these devious b*stards have been amassing fortunes from the death, horror & suffering of war, its even pretty easy to check, but very few ppl seem to give a sh*t so long as it doesnt effect them personally.


----------



## bandicoot76

kavla1970 said:


> Fasinating. Thanks for this.




history is fascinating... its just a shame ppl dont learn from it!


----------



## Mrmagoo

bandicoot76 said:


> you kinda missed the point there i think mate, who do you think funds the "rifle, artillerey, tank & missile"? the only difference now is that muslim ppl are the "enemy".  how many of the 1.5million ppl killed in iraq had anything to do with 9/11 do you think? but who makes a killing (literaly) out of the chaos of war? i'll leave that to you to discover for your self if your really interested... which most ppl seem not to be.
> throughout history these devious b*stards have been amassing fortunes from the death, horror & suffering of war, its even pretty easy to check, but very few ppl seem to give a sh*t so long as it doesnt effect them personally.




No conspiracy theories. I think the rich have a lot more to lose through war than they do to gain.

 I was simply talking about the days when our betters weren't bankers, they were a sort of fuedal monarchy that loved to go to war.


----------



## sptrawler

I find it a bit ironic, Garrett doesn't want to sell uranium to India, because they may make a bomb that will kill people.
However it is ok to sell them our coal and our coal mines which are apparently going to kill the planet. Duh

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/11897306/garrett-against-uranium-exports-to-india/


----------



## DB008

sprawler, come on, you know better than to put logic and Gillard in the one sentence.

So, when is the next election?


----------



## wayneL

Mrmagoo said:


> No conspiracy theories. I think the rich have a lot more to lose through war than they do to gain.




It depends on what level of "RICH" we are talking about.


----------



## Knobby22

wayneL said:


> It depends on what level of "RICH" we are talking about.




Yes, a certain recent vice President did very well out of the wars and many of the senators have a lot of wealth invested in the military complex.


----------



## joea

bandicoot76 said:


> history is fascinating... its just a shame ppl dont learn from it!




They have learnt from it all right.
They have learnt that munitions production is good for the economy.
They have learnt the following:
Big WARS are bad.
If you have little wars around the globe, you do not have a big war.
Little wars use up the stale munitions.

People are learning all the time, the problem is, the big focus is always how to make more money.

Politicians would realize that it is economically easy to solve the current crisis.
However it is hard to solve it, both economically and politically.
joea


----------



## Calliope

Peter Slipper is probably one of the most unprincipled rogues to ever enter parliament. He has now joined the ranks of the other turncoats, Windsor and Oakeshott to prop up Gillard's illegitimate government. This inglorious trio couldn't give a fig about the wishes of the electorates who elected them.

I live in Slipper's electorate where he is heartily despised for his grasping opportunism.  He knows he will not be pre-selected next time, so Gillard's $75.000 p.a. bribe easily bought him.

Harry Jenkins was the fall guy.


----------



## Julia

Slipper should hang his head in shame for so many reasons.
That he can agree to be part of this gross manipulation by Gillard is disgusting.


----------



## joea

But I have to say once again Slipper was voted in.
Gillard has got a extra number and Wilkie says things are as normal, at least until tonight.

If one noted Jenkins body language, he was not a happy soul.

joea


----------



## Knobby22

Its actually a good thing, one less vote needed to get through the lower house, the Green Bandt can be ignored or one of the independants. Gives the government more strength and calling it manipulation is a bit strong. labor made the offer, it was up to the member to betray his party for cash and glory and it appears Slipper had no hesitation to making the choice.

Anyone remember a certain Mal Colstan who was similarly swayed by the Libs?


----------



## dutchie

Gillard and Labor are getting desperate.

Maybe finally they can see the writing on the wall.

But Australia won't be fooled!


----------



## moXJO

This had more to do with the indies then the libs. Very smart move by labor and it looks like their head is finally in the long game. Have to give labor credit on this.


----------



## IFocus

Labor found a weakness in the Coalition and exploited it, this will hurt Abbott and again shows his leadership is not highly respected through out the Liberal parliamentary party.

Its also being a long coming train wreck as Mal Brough makes a run for Petes seat clearly Abbott and Co haven't thought though the whole situation.


Still Slippery Pete can still blow up but I think he will run the distance to keep the money.

He opened the batting today by tossing out a few Liberals nothing like rubbing faces in the dirt.

Labor will be celebrating tonight one of the few for the year.


----------



## joea

moXJO said:


> This had more to do with the indies then the libs. Very smart move by labor and it looks like their head is finally in the long game. Have to give labor credit on this.




Well I think we will see Craig Thompson "done in dusted" prior to Parliament to resitting.
joea


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Still Slippery Pete can still blow up but I think he will run the distance to keep the money.
> 
> He opened the batting today by tossing out a few Liberals nothing like rubbing faces in the dirt.




His own nose may be rubbed in the dirt. His past behaviour on allowance rorting  mightn't stand up to tough scrutiny, and the Libs will be out to nail him. His dirt file will be pretty bulky. And Labor has to protect a man they despise.



> The last sitting day of Parliament today will receive the latest report on members expense account claims with insiders saying that Mr Slipper has done little to curb his free spending ways.
> 
> "There will be no reason to hold back now,'' one Liberal Party source said.
> 
> "Peter Slipper's position will become untenable."




http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2011/11/24/slipper-deal-sealed-week-ago/


----------



## sptrawler

Just watched it on the news a bit sad really, the speaker obviously didn't want to step down.
They really are a nasty bunch and I am not being party specific.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Labor found a weakness in the Coalition and exploited it, this will hurt Abbott and again shows his leadership is not highly respected through out the Liberal parliamentary party....




A poll in the article below suggests that Abbott is not doing too badly inspite of the negative article from the Courier Mail which reports it.  I find it ironical that those who accuse Abbott of so much negativity are actually very negative themselves...



> ...In the latest Galaxy poll conducted for The Courier-Mail, about one in five LNP supporters agree with the proposition that Abbott is negative because "he has nothing constructive to say because he doesn't have any better ideas".




So, *the positive and flip side is that 80% of LNP supporters don't find Abbott too negative.*  And when Howard was in government, I do remember much negativity from the labor opposition. 


Source: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-to-abbotts-lead/story-e6frerdf-1226204227064


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Just watched it on the news a bit sad really, the speaker obviously didn't want to step down.
> They really are a nasty bunch and I am not being party specific.



Yes, I listened to the detailed report on "PM" this evening and felt quite sick at the viciousness all round.  Really felt for Harry Jenkins who seems to have been respected by both sides for his impartiality.

Mr Abbott, interviewed on 7.30 was full of the moral high ground, but I don't think anyone has any doubt that he'd have done exactly as Labor has if he'd had the chance.

The idea of the grubby Slipper being in charge of the House is quite nauseating.


----------



## sails

Lots of money going in travel.  I wonder if they ever consider how much co2 is belched out from  the jets they use?  And then tell us we should be paying for co2?  Doesn't say much for the urgency of the carbon tax, imo.


From the AGE: Rudd tops PM on travel bill league table


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Lots of money going in travel.  I wonder if they ever consider how much co2 is belched out from  the jets they use?  And then tell us we should be paying for co2?  Doesn't say much for the urgency of the carbon tax, imo.
> 
> 
> From the AGE: Rudd tops PM on travel bill league table




As my grandfather told me "when they get their heads in the trough it is really hard to get them out"
He owned a piggery.


----------



## noco

More lies from this Government in attempting to have voters believe the Mining tax will pay for the increased super from 9 - 12 %. The only ones who will benefit will be the Canberra bureauracrats.
Private employers will be paying the extra 3% which will no doubt drive up the cost of living or will result in reduced wages.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...s/its_your_own_money_that_labor_is_promising/


----------



## noco

It is very obvious from the timing of Harry Jenkins execution that Gillard and her party know more than they are letting on.

Does Gillard already know the outcome of the Craig Thomson saga and is proping up her numbers to stay in power? If he is about to be charged, you can bet your boots Gillard is in the 'know'.

The other problem for her is the Poker Machine saga which Andrew Wilkie is pursueing and which may not pass through parliament. So she could still finish up two short.

Interesting times ahead next year.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> More lies from this Government in attempting to have voters believe the Mining tax will pay for the increased super from 9 - 12 %. The only ones who will benefit will be the Canberra bureauracrats.
> Private employers will be paying the extra 3% which will no doubt drive up the cost of living or will result in reduced wages.



I'd have thought that if you are negotiating a position of employment with a prospective employer, the amount contributed to your super by that employer would simply be taken into consideration as part of your salary package, in the same way as the value of a company car being part of the package e.g.

So I don't see why employers are going to be especially disadvantaged over this increase.  Effectively, they just take the appropriate amount out of the salary they intended to offer and switch it into Super.  The employee still gets the money eventually.

I'm in favour of the increase to 12% in terms of the country taking responsibility for the aging population and the huge burden of paying for so many people to be on the age pension if they fail to accumulate enough Super to be self funded in retirement.
If that happens, then the taxpayer foots the bill.

Surely better for people to contribute more throughout their career?

My objection is that it's an extension of the nanny state.  People should be able to take responsibility for their own retirement plans.  But apparently they don't.  So compulsory Super is better than placing the burden on successive generations imo.


----------



## noco

Julia, I trust you read the link I posted with my remarks about how the Government has deceived the public.
I am not against the increase but how it will be funded and it would appear the employee will be the ones out of pocket.
I posted  opinion some time back whereby with modern medical science and stem cell research we will be living to 120 and beyond. So will the 12% be enough for future retirees?
I should imagine there will be 2 people working for every one retiree. I believe the rate is already 4 to one.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I'd have thought that if you are negotiating a position of employment with a prospective employer, the amount contributed to your super by that employer would simply be taken into consideration as part of your salary package, in the same way as the value of a company car being part of the package e.g.
> 
> So I don't see why employers are going to be especially disadvantaged over this increase.  Effectively, they just take the appropriate amount out of the salary they intended to offer and switch it into Super.  The employee still gets the money eventually.
> 
> I'm in favour of the increase to 12% in terms of the country taking responsibility for the aging population and the huge burden of paying for so many people to be on the age pension if they fail to accumulate enough Super to be self funded in retirement.
> If that happens, then the taxpayer foots the bill.
> 
> Surely better for people to contribute more throughout their career?
> 
> My objection is that it's an extension of the nanny state.  People should be able to take responsibility for their own retirement plans.  But apparently they don't.  So compulsory Super is better than placing the burden on successive generations imo.




Yes Julia, that would work out well if there was any accountability on the super funds.
If they linked management fees to fund earnings, rather than funds under management. There may be more due diligence on their part. At the moment money is being thrown down the gurgler.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Yes Julia, that would work out well if there was any accountability on the super funds.
> If they linked management fees to fund earnings, rather than funds under management. There may be more due diligence on their part. At the moment money is being thrown down the gurgler.



Not surprised at what you say.  All the more reason for people to have a SMSF, perhaps.


----------



## Whiskers

noco said:


> It is very obvious from the timing of Harry Jenkins execution that Gillard and her party know more than they are letting on.
> 
> Does Gillard already know the outcome of the Craig Thomson saga and is propping up her numbers to stay in power? If he is about to be charged, you can bet your boots Gillard is in the 'know'.
> 
> The other problem for her is the Poker Machine saga which Andrew Wilkie is pursueing and which may not pass through parliament. So she could still finish up two short.
> 
> Interesting times ahead next year.




...and it appears Slipper was on the verge of being dumped, or at least disciplined by his own party... and jumped before he was pushed, into the open arms of the Gillard government. Another pretty shallow polly more concerned with getting a bigger share of the feed trough than the integrity of his position in reflecting his constituents. 

In one way it's pleasing to see more independents in the parliament, BUT totally unpleasing to see that they are mostly elected as middle-of-the-road'ish but defected to the left in selfish self preservation circumstances.

All in all, with a couple of these types able to be bought by the gov to get key bills passed to avoid the greens if necessary, I can only say we are in for probably the most unpredictable and controversial time in our history in terms of what the public expects and gets from the gov.

What the hell will the protest vote do next time. A lot had gone with the Greens and Independents last time, but with the wheeling and dealing and proliferation of independents, will they all go for their true colors next time or is the country becoming a moralless cest pit of shallow, opportunistic turncoats!?


----------



## drsmith

Peter Slipper is without a doubt a political coup for Labor. It may however prove a hollow victory in the longer run.

Firstly, how will it be viewed by the electorate. It is after all an arrangement that involved slaughtering their own speaker for someone of obviously dubious character. It's yet another example of anything for an extra 5-minutes in office.

Peter Slipper has also demonstrated over a long period that he is not a team player. This could be unfavourable for Labor as it was for the Coalition.

Another question is Kevin Rudd's next move. Is he hoping that the voting public take a dim view of this so it's easier for him to knife Julia Gillard ?


----------



## sptrawler

Whiskers said:


> ...and it appears Slipper was on the verge of being dumped, or at least disciplined by his own party... and jumped before he was pushed, into the open arms of the Gillard government. Another pretty shallow polly more concerned with getting a bigger share of the feed trough than the integrity of his position in reflecting his constituents.
> 
> In one way it's pleasing to see more independents in the parliament, BUT totally unpleasing to see that they are mostly elected as middle-of-the-road'ish but defected to the left in selfish self preservation circumstances.
> 
> All in all, with a couple of these types able to be bought by the gov to get key bills passed to avoid the greens if necessary, I can only say we are in for probably the most unpredictable and controversial time in our history in terms of what the public expects and gets from the gov.
> 
> What the hell will the protest vote do next time. A lot had gone with the Greens and Independents last time, but with the wheeling and dealing and proliferation of independents, will they all go for their true colors next time or is the country becoming a moralless cest pit of shallow, opportunistic turncoats!?




Very well put, Whiskers


----------



## sptrawler

It really is sad when you get people like this getting voted into parliament, anything for a headline.
 What a piece of work he is.IMO He makes me nauseous.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/oakeshott-falls-just-short-of-the-big-chair-20111124-1nxbh.html


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Very well put, Whiskers



 +1.

The only amusing side issue in this grubby manoeuvre was hearing Andrew Wilkie exhibiting fear that he has now lost much of his relevance.  About time.


----------



## joea

It is interesting to note Albanese denies knowing anything about Slipper "jumping ship", before yesterday. His facial expression gave absolutely no sign of embarrassment.

However Rudd has denied to comment. He was in the electorate a couple of weeks ago, so he would be" in the know."

Must be a office in Canberra: written on the door.
"Labor Liars School"
" Please visit regularly"
In small print "Tuition by masters Gillard & Swan"

It will be interesting to see the next Pol.
joea


----------



## Logique

It's called politics. In the scheme of things, what difference will it make, the Brown-Gillard government was going full term anyway.

Winners: the pubs and clubs industry, what price pokies reform now.
Losers: Andrew Wilkie. And Labor at the next election, having leaked even more moral authority.

Harry Jenkins was the best Speaker I've seen, a man of obvious integrity and fairness, but he'd probably had a gutful anyway. He would understand why the party wanted to go this way.


----------



## noco

How can anyone say, including Ms Gillard, that this 'grubby' deal had not been planned weeks ahead.

The timing of it all on the last sitting day of parliament for 2011.

When it all hit the fan, Gillard sat there looking like the cat that swallowed the canary.

The mere fact that Peter Slipper's wife and family were in the gallery to watch him being dragged to the speakers chair. 

SURPRISE!! SURPRISE!!! I DON'T THINK SO.


----------



## trainspotter

Anyone watch "Parliament Time" yesterday with the new speaker of the house? OMFG !!

It took 9 preselections and 3 no confidence votes to elect a new speaker of the house !!

We are in serious trouble here


----------



## explod

noco said:


> How can anyone say, including Ms Gillard, that this 'grubby' deal had not been planned weeks ahead.
> 
> The timing of it all on the last sitting day of parliament for 2011.
> 
> When it all hit the fan, Gillard sat there looking like the cat that swallowed the canary.
> 
> The mere fact that Peter Slipper's wife and family were in the gallery to watch him being dragged to the speakers chair.
> 
> SURPRISE!! SURPRISE!!! I DON'T THINK SO.




And pray tell, wouldn't Abbott do the same to save his skin.

And what about Malcolm Fraser and Murdock many years ago.

Grow up, this is politics, and yes it is greasy.

Anyway Abbott probably caused it by the way he marginalised his *own member*.

Anyway the libs are gone IMV.  Labour will be the new right with the greens growing to be the new left.

Get used to it.


----------



## drsmith

explod said:


> Anyway the libs are gone IMV.  Labour will be the new right with the greens growing to be the new left.



Ya dreemin now.


----------



## moXJO

explod said:


> .
> 
> Anyway the libs are gone IMV.  Labour will be the new right with the greens growing to be the new left.
> 
> Get used to it.




I think both small business and self employed will be the big backlash against labor. No chance of the above happening


----------



## sails

explod said:


> ...Anyway the libs are gone IMV.  Labour will be the new right with the greens growing to be the new left.
> 
> Get used to it.





You are forgetting that there is no fury like an electorate scorned.  
The carbon tax lie will not be forgotten.  
21 months to go at the latest until an election...

And if Gillard does lurch to the right, she will be in danger of upsetting her existing 30% voter base.  The majority are not likely to be fooled any further by someone whose word clearly cannot be trusted.


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> And pray tell, wouldn't Abbott do the same to save his skin.
> 
> And what about Malcolm Fraser and Murdock many years ago.
> 
> Grow up, this is politics, and yes it is greasy.



"Grow up"???  Because someone raises an objection to a particularly grubby action?



> Anyway Abbott probably caused it by the way he marginalised his *own member*.



Mr Slipper marginalised himself.  His electorate is disgusted with him, as is most of Queensland.  And for good reason.


> Anyway the libs are gone IMV.  Labour will be the new right with the greens growing to be the new left.
> 
> Get used to it.



A bit of wishful thinking here, explod.  I might be quite wrong, but I can see this nasty little bit of manipulation bouncing back against Labor.  The electorate is not stupid.  Let's see how Mr Slipper behaves as Speaker.  Given his capacity for good judgment so far, I'm not optimistic.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> "Grow up"???  Because someone raises an objection to a particularly grubby action?
> 
> 
> Mr Slipper marginalised himself.  His electorate is disgusted with him, as is most of Queensland.  And for good reason.
> 
> A bit of wishful thinking here, explod.  I might be quite wrong, but I can see this nasty little bit of manipulation bouncing back against Labor.  The electorate is not stupid.  Let's see how Mr Slipper behaves as Speaker.  Given his capacity for good judgment so far, I'm not optimistic.





Ironically, if the libs had done anything like this latest stunt, one can only imagine the name calling and pouncing on Abbott.

But no, instead we have labor/green supporters turning a blind eye to the desperate attempts to cling to power at any cost while denigrating Abbott if he blinks ...

Lastest newspoll still only have labor on 30% primary vote.  Really nothing to crow about, Explod.


----------



## joea

Inside Story. AFR.
When Harry Jenkins arrived at Government House yesterday to offer his resignation as Speaker of the House of Representatives to the Governor General, a military band and the ceremonial Federation Guard, in full regalia, were waiting to greet him.
Such a reception requires a lot of notice............. So it seemed to add wait to the conspiracy theory that Jenkins's move was a set up.

Oh well!
Anthony Albanese will regret the lies at the next election.
joea


----------



## Timmy

joea said:


> Inside Story. AFR.
> When Harry Jenkins arrived at Government House yesterday to offer his resignation as Speaker of the House of Representatives to the Governor General, a military band and the ceremonial Federation Guard, in full regalia, were waiting to greet him.
> Such a reception requires a lot of notice............. So it seemed to add wait to the conspiracy theory that Jenkins's move was a set up.
> 
> Oh well!
> Anthony Albanese will regret the lies at the next election.
> joea




Nice selective quoting; why no source for others to check it? 
And now a subsequent paragraph in the AFR story:



> The military parade was, indeed, organised well in advance. But it wasn’t in the expectation that Jenkins was on the verge of resigning. The reception was for a clutch of recently appointed foreign ambassadors about to present their credentials.




Oh, and here is the source, for those interested in the full AFR story:
http://www.afr.com/p/national/bowing_out_with_bang_the_inside_m3QeuMxN4kVA0Iymcp1VhL

Looks like Albanese isn't the only one being economical with the truth?


----------



## nulla nulla

Seems to be a lot of foot stamping, hand wringing, teeth gnashing going on. Suck it up ladies and get over it.


----------



## sails

nulla nulla said:


> Seems to be a lot of foot stamping, hand wringing, teeth gnashing going on. Suck it up ladies and get over it.




Haha Nulla - and the foot stamping, hand wringing, teeth gnashing over Abbott is all OK?  

But I will  remind you of this when you don't like decisions made by the coalition when they are in government....  After all, labor only has a primary vote of 30% so you are telling the majority of voters to suck it up.  You are in the minority...:

And this from Barrie Cassidy - last paragraph of the article below:



> In his first doorstop interview after the Speaker, Harry Jenkins, resigned, Tony Abbott said the Government had "lost its way, lost its majority and lost its speaker", He could have added, they have lost their moral compass as well.
> 
> What price government?




Read full article from the ABC: Speaker Slipper now a Government responsibility


----------



## explod

sails said:


> But I will  remind you of this when you don't like decisions made by the coalition when they are in government....  After all, labor only has a primary vote of 30% so you are telling the majority of voters to suck it up.  You are in the minority...:




And also be reminded that parties in Government in my 50 years of taking notice are notorious for being down in opinion polls mid term.

We have a long way to go now and the ALP in spite of the spite are starting to trend up.  

And as said;

get over it


----------



## sails

explod said:


> ...And as said;
> 
> get over it





Oh, this is so funny. :silly:

 Someone from the 30% corner says to "get over it". Or perhaps you are from the 10%.  Either way there is a majority of voters who do not agree with you.

Never mind, Explod, you might need the same advice to "get over it"  sometime in the next 21 months...:viking:...


----------



## sails

explod said:


> ...We have a long way to go now and the ALP in spite of the spite are starting to trend up...





I thought the ALP were *trending back down* with the latest Newspoll?  57:43 and 30% primary for labor.  It's actually not the spite, it's the stuff-ups and debacles that have people so upset with this government.  It's passing a major tax that was promised wouldn't be passed at least this term.  Lots of things that have shown total disrespect to the majority of voters.  

And the silent majority are waiting for the next election just as they did in NSW.  :viking:


----------



## explod

sails said:


> Oh, this is so funny. :silly:
> 
> Someone from the 30% corner says to "get over it". Or perhaps you are from the 10%.  Either way there is a majority of voters who do not agree with you.
> 
> Never mind, Explod, you might need the same advice to "get over it"  sometime in the next 21 months...:viking:...




Sorry Champ, I am merely a Green just plodding along and could not give a fiddlers for the ALP.

And there is spite and venom, on this thread for a start.   And some of these polls are becoming biased too.  Nielsen in particular who I did know at a personal level some years ago.   Poll results are in fact used to shift opinion.   Worked on surveys myself in another life, and it is all about how you ask a question.

As I have intimated before, Governments are powerless in the face of oil and coal companies.  The big money run Governments.

So do a bit of digging and get onto something that is going to help, as all the pollies should too.


----------



## drsmith

explod said:


> I am merely a Green just plodding along.......



I'm mainstream, so there. :


----------



## sails

explod said:


> Sorry Champ, I am merely a Green just plodding along and could not give a fiddlers for the ALP.
> 
> And there is spite and venom, on this thread for a start.   And some of these polls are becoming biased too.  Nielsen in particular who I did know at a personal level some years ago.   Poll results are in fact used to shift opinion.   Worked on surveys myself in another life, and it is all about how you ask a question.
> 
> As I have intimated before, Governments are powerless in the face of oil and coal companies.  The big money run Governments.
> 
> So do a bit of digging and get onto something that is going to help, as all the pollies should too.




Explod, probably what you see as spite an venom is the result of being dudded (carbon tax lie), frustration and some anger at the way this government thumbs it's nose at the electorate.

If the polls could be controlled as you suggest, I would think Gillard would have wrapped that up by now.  At least one journalist and one radio announcer have lost their jobs it seems directly due to her intervention.  Media inquiries seem to be biased against anyone who tells the whole truth.

And, my responses were to your telling dudded voters "to get over it".  No hope of that and patiently waiting for the next election when democracy can finally have it's say.


----------



## explod

sails said:


> Explod, probably what you see as spite an venom is the result of being dudded (carbon tax lie), frustration and some anger at the way this government thumbs it's nose at the electorate.
> 
> If the polls could be controlled as you suggest, I would think Gillard would have wrapped that up by now.  At least one journalist and one radio announcer have lost their jobs it seems directly due to her intervention.  Media inquiries seem to be biased against anyone who tells the whole truth.
> 
> And, my responses were to your telling dudded voters "to get over it".  No hope of that and patiently waiting for the next election when democracy can finally have it's say.




Carbon tax was not a lie, simply a politician changing mind as they all do.  The new Lib Govt down here in victoria have virtually torn up the rule book on promises.

Not saying polls are controlled, I am saying that the media put a lot of emphasis on such results yet mid term they often do not say a lot about real intentions.  At the ballot box faced with real consequences individuals often act differently.  Mid term they may use it to send a message to smarten up.  Here the vote counts for no more than a say, therefore the weight of importance may be very different in the mind of the person polled.

People have few choices over their lives or what pollies do today, so I wonder if we can really call it democracy anymore.


----------



## drsmith

On second thought, I'm Green


----------



## drsmith

explod said:


> People have few choices over their lives or what pollies do today, so I wonder if we can really call it democracy anymore.



It's not. 

It's crap from all sides, including those pesky Greens.


----------



## IFocus

Laughable watching Abbott thrash about for a situation he helped make.

How the Liberal party thought they could side line slippery Pete with out consequences is surely a serious lack of judgment.

Abbott has demonstrated he is the master of being Doctor Noooo but has no depth when it comes to leadership.

Hockey's claims of Abbott not contacting one of the independents is just further evidence the guy is a dunce. 

Lets see how tough Abbott really is once the blow torch gets applied......not very I suspect.


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> As I have intimated before, Governments are powerless in the face of oil and coal companies.  The big money run Governments.



That's a popular bit of Greens dogma.
If it were actually so, then the vociferous objections to the carbon tax from the business lobby would have had some effect.  They have not.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Laughable watching Abbott thrash about for a situation he helped make.
> 
> How the Liberal party thought they could side line slippery Pete with out consequences is surely a serious lack of judgment.
> 
> Abbott has demonstrated he is the master of being Doctor Noooo but has no depth when it comes to leadership.
> 
> Hockey's claims of Abbott not contacting one of the independents is just further evidence the guy is a dunce.
> 
> Lets see how tough Abbott really is once the blow torch gets applied......not very I suspect.




I have to admit Abbott hasn't been under the pump for awhile, this may help him get back on his game. 
It really has been a pretty easy time in opposition, with the goon show trying to fit in with kermit the frog and the three amigos.
Well now we can probably get back to the main game Labor stuff ups, they will still come thick and fast.
Watch this space.


----------



## Eager

sails said:


> Ironically, if the libs had done anything like this latest stunt, one can only imagine the name calling and pouncing on Abbott.



Typically, you have a short memory, or a selective one...

May I remind you of the underhanded Howard/Colston arrangement.

At the end of the day, what the Gillard government did was CLEVER.


----------



## joea

When Gillard announced uranium sales to India, without mentioning it to Rudd, Kevin was on TV looking pretty glum. No doubt he was thinking his days were numbered.
Kevie was thinking maybe I should go work for the Missus,(wonder if I will get an expense account) and stuff this lot.

Tony Abbott attempted to extend the pre-selection of Slipper,  but the Qld. section of the Libs. said no way. They wanted to clean the cupboard of Sippery Pete. After all, they had a state election coming, and would have been thinking some issues have to be resolved..

Meantime the Craig Thompson issue is still to be resolved.

So we have Labor with the possible loss of two MP's. So the numbers men of Labor sorted it out.
Its that simple.

With Qld. under the control of LNP(we hope) the next sitting of Federal and the State's will be truly interesting. The  majority of resources in Australia will be controlled by Coalition states.
joea


----------



## nulla nulla

joea said:


> When Gillard announced uranium sales to India, without mentioning it to Rudd, Kevin was on TV looking pretty glum. No doubt he was thinking his days were numbered.
> Kevie was thinking maybe I should go work for the Missus,(wonder if I will get an expense account) and stuff this lot.
> 
> Tony Abbott attempted to extend the pre-selection of Slipper,  but the Qld. section of the Libs. said no way. They wanted to clean the cupboard of Sippery Pete. After all, they had a state election coming, and would have been thinking some issues have to be resolved..
> 
> Meantime the Craig Thompson issue is still to be resolved.
> 
> So we have Labor with the possible loss of two MP's. So the numbers men of Labor sorted it out.
> Its that simple.
> 
> With Qld. under the control of LNP(we hope) the next sitting of Federal and the State's will be truly interesting. The  majority of resources in Australia will be controlled by Coalition states.
> joea




Are you working on the presumption Ms Bligh will get rolled?


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> Typically, you have a short memory, or a selective one...
> 
> May I remind you of the underhanded Howard/Colston arrangement.
> 
> At the end of the day, what the Gillard government did was CLEVER.




Clever, but nasty. To appoint the laziest, sleaziest no hoper in the house to the role of Speaker with all it's benefits takes a sick and twisted mind. It makes my skin crawl. I've had dealings with Slipper. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.



> *PETER Slipper's defection to the cross benches, giving Julia Gillard greater power in a minority government, will go down as one of the biggest acts of political betrayal in Australia's history.
> 
> Sunshine Coast LNP supporters did not elect Peter Slipper at the last poll - they voted for the LNP.
> 
> And they have every right to be furious that Mr Slipper, after a lifetime of supporting the conservative side of politics, jumped ship - for a $75,000 pay rise and the "prestige" of being elected Speaker to the national parliament.*
> 
> *The thought of our lazy, self-serving MP moving into one of the biggest offices in Canberra, with all the perks attached to it, is enough to make any Coast resident's skin crawl.*
> 
> *The fact that Julia Gillard, in her grab for power, could accept someone of Mr Slipper's reputation, given the travel expense scandal that has plagued him for years, reflects poorly on her political and personal integrity.*



http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2011/11/26/slippery-slipper-the-only-winner/


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> Clever, but nasty. To appoint the laziest, sleaziest no hoper in the house to the role of Speaker with all it's benefits takes a sick and twisted mind. It makes my skin crawl. I've had dealings with Slipper. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.
> 
> 
> http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2011/11/26/slippery-slipper-the-only-winner/




Well it all makes sense then, he should fit in beautifully with labor. LOL


----------



## Eager

Calliope said:


> Clever, but nasty.



Yes, that too (for once we agree on something lol!). Politics is nasty, full stop.

I wonder if Abbott was in the same position as Gillard, and had the same opportunity, would he have done the same? That can only be answered with speculation of course, but it is my opinion that he and his party may have lacked the nous to do so.

The  ensuing smear campaign against Slipper by his former allies was predictable, just as the one against Colston was; again, it is just politics.

To all: There is no point whining.

As a side note, how wonderful is the theatrics of parliament? The Speaker getting dragged to the chair, continuing a centuries-old tradition.


----------



## drsmith

Whining ??

Who's whining ?


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> Whining ??
> 
> Who's whining ?





I think this might be the latest information from emails from the likes of GetUp or some other political group.

Words like, "get over it", "get used to it", "stop whining", seem to be the favourite buzz words of the left posters.


----------



## joea

nulla nulla said:


> Are you working on the presumption Ms Bligh will get rolled?




They say we can live in "HOPE". In my case "to expect with confidence".

There has to be a deal breaker in Australian politics soon, because the promotion of "Slippery Pete" to the Speaker in parliament, has mocked the authority of the position.

IMO this move is far worse than knifing Kevin Rudd. This is "gutter politics!"

Hopefully the people of Australia will interpret it as such.(and not what party he has come from)

joea


----------



## Eager

sails said:


> I think this might be the latest information from emails from the likes of GetUp or some other political group.
> 
> Words like, "get over it", "get used to it", "stop whining", seem to be the favourite buzz words of the left posters.



I've never looked at GetUp etc.

Favourite buzz words? Huh? Since when has the use of certain words been classified by political leaning? Are you telling me, that you will forever refuse to use that word because it is a 'leftie' one? Maybe I should have used the definitiion of whining instead: To complain in a feeble or petulant way.

If the opinion is that there has been no whining on the issue, then I'm glad to have prevented it.


----------



## sails

Eager said:


> I've never looked at GetUp etc.
> 
> Favourite buzz words? Huh? Since when has the use of certain words been classified by political leaning? Are you telling me, that you will forever refuse to use that word because it is a 'leftie' one? Maybe I should have used the definitiion of whining instead: To complain in a feeble or petulant way.
> 
> If the opinion is that there has been no whining on the issue, then I'm glad to have prevented it.





Sorry Eager if you have no idea.   I have noticed these terms predominantly elsewhere in the last couple of days, but when it popped up on ASF as well, I wondered if it was some sort of united attack over the Slipper slide show.  It's wierd how the minority like to talk as if they are the majority...

Let's hope we do an even better job of getting our country back on track than the Kiwi's managed at our next election.


----------



## JTLP

drsmith said:


> Whining ??
> 
> Who's whining ?




Sounds like councilman Les Wynen should do more thinking and less whinin'!


----------



## explod

sails said:


> I think this might be the latest information from emails from the likes of GetUp or some other political group.
> 
> Words like, "get over it", "get used to it", "stop whining", seem to be the favourite buzz words of the left posters.




Ya know, I am up to my teeth with the cheeting and lying of the ALP too.   But getting upset is not going to help.

Gillard is the Prime Minister, she hold the cards and if you cant stop whinging or get over it then you'd be all best to go away.

What a pathetic lot most of you are and the thread too.

Instead of carrying on, why not put up some real ideas that will help politics overall.  We could all make a good think tank if we would throw off this emotional garbage.


----------



## wayneL

explod said:


> Instead of carrying on, why not put up some real ideas that will help politics overall.  We could all make a good think tank if we would throw off this emotional garbage.




Totally agree.

The problem is that it only take one person to start point scoring (from any quarter) and there is a reversion to tribalism.

Unfortunately it (an all encompassing think tank) can't happen.


----------



## Eager

sails said:


> It's wierd how the minority like to talk as if they are the majority...



Yep, like those in opposition!

It's just a game.


----------



## drsmith

explod said:


> ...put up some real ideas that will help politics overall.



Election.


----------



## sptrawler

Jeez I can't believe it the Prime minister as a presenter on the Aria"s. That is unbelievable, the head of state introducing an entertainer to a t.v audience.
WHAT NEXT that is outrageous.


----------



## todster

explod said:


> Ya know, I am up to my teeth with the cheeting and lying of the ALP too.   But getting upset is not going to help.
> 
> Gillard is the Prime Minister, she hold the cards and if you cant stop whinging or get over it then you'd be all best to go away.
> 
> What a pathetic lot most of you are and the thread too.
> 
> Instead of carrying on, why not put up some real ideas that will help politics overall.  We could all make a good think tank if we would throw off this emotional garbage.




Ban anyone from the legal profession entering parliament


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Jeez I can't believe it the Prime minister as a presenter on the Aria"s. That is unbelievable, the head of state introducing an entertainer to a t.v audience.
> WHAT NEXT that is outrageous.




No maybe I am being a bit over the top there. Maybe she can be a judge on "Australias got Talent" and find new members for the Labor party she can parachute in.
What the hell is happening. how do they find time for this crap when everyone is trying to make ends meet.


----------



## sptrawler

Well have to continue on with this one. What a laugh a presenter on the Aria's, I think his name was Wilkins, introduced Stevie Nicks as royalty, didn't mention the PRIME MINISTER, who was obviously there.
What a hoot, I wouldn't have seen this if I wasn't preoccupied writing on the forum.


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> No maybe I am being a bit over the top there. Maybe she can be a judge on "Australias got Talent" and find new members for the Labor party she can parachute in.
> What the hell is happening. how do they find time for this crap when everyone is trying to make ends meet.




I think Tony was playing tennis.


----------



## joea

Is this what she needs the numbers for.?
Released on a Saturday to avoid the big papers splash on Saturday.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-26/government-seeks-tax-change-to-return-budget-to-black/3696618

joea


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> No maybe I am being a bit over the top there. Maybe she can be a judge on "Australias got Talent" and find new members for the Labor party she can parachute in.
> What the hell is happening. how do they find time for this crap when everyone is trying to make ends meet.




She will find time to be on TV, every day of the week and twice on weekend days.
She believes TV exposure is a sure vote winner. Meanwhile the voters keep switching channels.
I bet Tim's job it to record them.
She has not got saggy eyes from the PM's job, but from watching the replays.
joea


----------



## joea

Hi.
Wonder if there is any chance in taking the hat around, to buy Wayne Swan a new calculator.?
His has been playing up  every since he got into government.
His numbers are out 64% on predicted deficit.
Or does he just throw a dart at numbers he puts up on a board.?
Bet he is not allowed to do the household budget!!!!!
joea


----------



## joea

joea said:


> It is interesting to note Albanese denies knowing anything about Slipper "jumping ship", before yesterday. His facial expression gave absolutely no sign of embarrassment.
> 
> However Rudd has denied to comment. He was in the electorate a couple of weeks ago, so he would be" in the know."
> 
> Must be a office in Canberra: written on the door.
> "Labor Liars School"
> " Please visit regularly"
> In small print "Tuition by masters Gillard & Swan"
> 
> It will be interesting to see the next Pol.
> joea




Well I THOUGHT Swan had a degree in lying, but did not know he had a Masters.
If Labor make it to the 2012 - 2013, by them Swan would have moved on to his PhD.
What made me think that. His response to the blowout in the deficit.
joea


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> Well have to continue on with this one. What a laugh a presenter on the Aria's, I think his name was Wilkins, introduced Stevie Nicks as royalty, didn't mention the PRIME MINISTER, who was obviously there.
> What a hoot, I wouldn't have seen this if I wasn't preoccupied writing on the forum.




I saw this on the news this morning. She was presenting something-or-other at the ARIA's last night.
One thing that did stand out was, how much make-up she (PM) is putting on. Does she buy it by the litre? You can actually see a 10 skin colour change around the neck line, so feral.....


----------



## So_Cynical

The 97 pages of Labor bashing and Liberal whining on this thread is really a bit much...come on kids.

---------------

The Gillard Government is doing a great job.

The Budget will will be in surplus next year, Aust has a AAA rating from all 3 major rating agency's (first time ever :dunno) Swanny is International Treasurer of the year, interest rates falling, inflation low and stable, house prices softish but stable, employment high, dollar high, environmental and socially responsible legislative change.

What more could anyone ask of a federal Government.


----------



## drsmith

So_Cynical said:


> The Gillard Government is doing a great job.



I can only assume for some that its hand has reached beyond the hip pocket nerve.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> The 97 pages of Labor bashing and Liberal whining on this thread is really a bit much...come on kids.
> 
> ---------------
> 
> The Gillard Government is doing a great job.
> 
> The Budget will will be in surplus next year, Aust has a AAA rating from all 3 major rating agency's (first time ever :dunno) Swanny is International Treasurer of the year, interest rates falling, inflation low and stable, house prices softish but stable, employment high, dollar high, environmental and socially responsible legislative change.
> 
> What more could anyone ask of a federal Government.




Yep, increase in marginal tax rates, new indirect taxes that are going to flow on to the consumer, mountains of insulation batts sitting around rotting, houses being filled up by  illegal immigrants, pension age lifted to 67, salary sacrifice limits dropped to ensure people don't have enogh super to retire.

What more could we ask, nothing, just keep serving it up.LOL


----------



## DB008

So_Cynical said:


> The Budget will will be in surplus next year



Not hard to do after you inherit a huge cash surplus. 




So_Cynical said:


> Aust has a AAA rating from all 3 major rating agency's (first time ever :dunno)



Do you really trust those rating agency's? Lehman Bro's was AAA the day before it went under?




So_Cynical said:


> Swanny is International Treasurer of the year



I think, even l (or any 10th grade student) could have got the same award if we were in his shoes




So_Cynical said:


> interest rates falling, inflation low and stable



Falling because there might be something outside of the blinkers we have on (i.e., the world economy)....


I won't even bother with the rest.....


----------



## So_Cynical

drsmith said:


> I can only assume for some that its hand has reached beyond the hip pocket nerve.




On a fundamental analysis type basis... what's wrong?

If Australia was a stock id buy it. 



sptrawler said:


> houses being filled up by  illegal immigrants




Courtesy of 1 vote Tony...short memory hey, it was only a month ago.



sptrawler said:


> pension age lifted to 67, salary sacrifice limits dropped to ensure people don't have enogh super to retire.




Pension age lifted if you still want to work... retirement age hasn't changed, salary sacrifice dropped to only $25000 so millionares can no longer massivly rort the system like they did before...wow how unfair...i just started SS this year and ill never be able to afford 25K.   

EDIT: well i mite be able to afford 25k PA in the last 1 or 2 years.


----------



## drsmith

The problem with stimulation beyond the hip pocket nerve is that its effects may not be as long lived as one would like.


----------



## noco

So_Cynical said:


> The 97 pages of Labor bashing and Liberal whining on this thread is really a bit much...come on kids.
> 
> ---------------
> 
> The Gillard Government is doing a great job.
> 
> The Budget will will be in surplus next year, Aust has a AAA rating from all 3 major rating agency's (first time ever :dunno) Swanny is International Treasurer of the year, interest rates falling, inflation low and stable, house prices softish but stable, employment high, dollar high, environmental and socially responsible legislative change.
> 
> What more could anyone ask of a federal Government.




The Gillard government doing a great job???????????????Brrrrrrrrrrrr

So what more do we want? Honesty, integrity, less shonky deals with the Greens and the Indies and less spin.

Had this inept Green/Labor socialist left wing government  not wasted $billions on :-

Pinkd bats ( and they are still trying to sort out the mess)
Julia Gillard's memorial school halls ( which has done nothing for the education revolution and over run on budget)
Cash for clunkers.
Food watch
Fuel watch.
Incresaed cost of living and it will get worse with the 23% carbon dioxide tax. You know there will be NO carbon tax under the government I lead says Juliar.
The added cost Labor has created by relaxing our borders back in 2008.
The cost of keeping those illegal immigrants.
The $599,000 donated to the UN climate change committee plus 10% of all the carbon dioxide tax collected.
The money Rudd is throwing around on foreign aid just to get a seat on the UN.
The shonky deal done last week with the speaker.
The knifing of Rudd.
Computers for every high school student.
Rising unemployment.
Risng debt levels.
Still borrowing $120,000,000 per day.

Have I missed any? 

Yes, and we would have been in much better shape than we are now especially after taking over a healthy economy with $22 billion in the bank.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> On a fundamental analysis type basis... what's wrong?
> 
> If Australia was a stock id buy it.
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of 1 vote Tony...short memory hey, it was only a month ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Pension age lifted if you still want to work... retirement age hasn't changed, salary sacrifice dropped to only $25000 so millionares can no longer massivly rort the system like they did before...wow how unfair...i just started SS this year and ill never be able to afford 25K.
> 
> EDIT: well i mite be able to afford 25k PA in the last 1 or 2 years.




Well that pretty well sums up, why you are where you are and will stay there. 
Not being funny but, if you went bush and put in the hard yards at say 20-30 years old. Then did 10years of fly in fly out(you can live there if you prefer) 12hrs a day 5days/wk or 14 days on 7 days off average 60hrs/wk.
You can earn depending on your profession $75,000 - 180,000 p/a. Most of these guys would love to be able to salary sacrifice $50k-$100k p/a and then get a sensible job and live a normal life.


----------



## sails

So_Cynical said:


> ...The Gillard Government is doing a great job....




Was this in the daily email to all labor/green supporters?  It's amusing to see the same propaganda flogged here and on other forums...

Do you think if you say it enough people will believe it?

Sorry, SC, but the majority of Australians have been deceived over a major tax and this will not be forgotten.  No amount of propaganda will remove the lie.

'Propaganda' definition:

Information, esp. of a biased or *misleading *nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.​


----------



## So_Cynical

sptrawler said:


> Well that pretty well sums up, why you are where you are and will stay there.
> Not being funny but, if you went bush and put in the hard yards at say 20-30 years old. Then did 10years of fly in fly out(you can live there if you prefer) 12hrs a day 5days/wk or 14 days on 7 days off average 60hrs/wk.
> You can earn depending on your profession $75,000 - 180,000 p/a. Most of these guys would love to be able to salary sacrifice $50k-$100k p/a and then get a sensible job and live a normal life.




Yeah well i didn't...and at the time noticed that pretty much the rest of Perth didn't either, it was rare to know anyone working "up north" in the late 70's and early 80's..i had a chance to get a great job on good money etc (Not up north), and things didn't play out for me due to injury.

Life's like that for some people, most people....you actually do understand that the average wage is not actually paid to the average person?, that people earning $75,000 - 180,000 p/a are not average.

And seriously if i did earn $75,000 - 180,000 p/a consistently over a decade or so, that fact that i couldn't put more than 25K into super is an issue of so little significance as to be almost totally insignificant.  

Get some perspective dude.


----------



## DB008

noco said:


> Have I missed any?




Set top boxes for the oldies.
Baby bonus is also getting a hair cut soon to try to meet targets.

Climategate Mk I - Copenhagen - noting achieved.
Climategate MkII - Durban - started 28/11/11.


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> Well that pretty well sums up, why you are where you are and will stay there.
> Not being funny but, if you went bush and put in the hard yards at say 20-30 years old. Then did 10years of fly in fly out(you can live there if you prefer) 12hrs a day 5days/wk or 14 days on 7 days off average 60hrs/wk.
> You can earn depending on your profession $75,000 - 180,000 p/a. Most of these guys would love to be able to salary sacrifice $50k-$100k p/a and then get a sensible job and live a normal life.




sptrawler, l did that (FIFO - ex Perth) a number of years ago and have set myself up nicely. Roster was 4&1 though - hard.


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> sptrawler, l did that (FIFO - ex Perth) a number of years ago and have set myself up nicely. Roster was 4&1 though - hard.




Well done Dannyboy, probably the reason you don't bitch and complain. 
Also gives you objectivity on balanced government, rather than talk up a crap one because it may give you more handouts.
I did the same thing in the early 80's my sons are doing it now.


----------



## IFocus

DB008 said:


> Roster was 4&1 though - hard.




Soft......... I used to do 3 to 6 months months and 1 week off construction in the 70's Newman / Tom Price.


----------



## Eager

IFocus said:


> Soft......... I used to do 3 to 6 months months and 1 week off construction in the 70's Newman / Tom Price.



The older you get, the better you were.



So_Cynical said:


> The 97 pages of Labor bashing and Liberal whining on this thread is really a bit much...come on kids.
> 
> ---------------
> 
> The Gillard Government is doing a great job.
> 
> The Budget will will be in surplus next year, Aust has a AAA rating from all 3 major rating agency's (first time ever :dunno) Swanny is International Treasurer of the year, interest rates falling, inflation low and stable, house prices softish but stable, employment high, dollar high, environmental and socially responsible legislative change.
> 
> What more could anyone ask of a federal Government.



Damn effective too, with 130+ bills passed so far.



noco said:


> The Gillard government doing a great job???????????????Brrrrrrrrrrrr
> 
> ...Pinkd bats ( and they are still trying to sort out the mess)...etc



I’d like to talk about that issue. The Pink Batts scheme (not Pinkd bats, *loco*) was an absolutely brilliant idea; it was only its implementation that was flawed.

The true winner out of the entire scheme was Darwin’s Theory. It wasn’t Rudd, Garrett, Gillard or Labor, who drove nails through live wiring or created fire danger through poor installation techniques.

Let’s suppose, just for a minute, that no fly-by-night businesses were set up to carry out the work, as there were by hundreds of unethical, free enterprising, rorting, rogue, child or untrained labour using scumbags (such free enterprisin’ folk normally vote a particular way too). Instead, let’s suppose, just for a minute, that every installer of the batts was properly accredited and licenced to carry out the work, with the appropriate regulatory or watchdog bodies watching over them and who they employed. The job would have been done properly the first time, to everyone’s benefit.

*sigh* The Pink Batts scheme failed because some people saw it as nothing more than a money-making exercise!


----------



## sails

Eager said:


> ...*sigh* The Pink Batts scheme failed because some people saw it as nothing more than a money-making exercise!




lol - just like the carbon tax?


----------



## So_Cynical

DB008 said:


> Set top boxes for the oldies.
> Baby bonus is also getting a hair cut soon to try to meet targets.
> 
> Climategate Mk I - Copenhagen - noting achieved.
> Climategate MkII - Durban - started 28/11/11.




For the record.

Copenhagen was COP 15  (Conferences of the Parties - COP) the 15th major conference.
Durban is COP 17 (Conferences of the Parties - COP) the 17th major conference.

COP 1 was held in Berlin in 1995...just in case anyone is delusional enough to think that all this climate stuff is something new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Framework_Convention_on_Climate_Change



sptrawler said:


> Well done Dannyboy, probably the reason you don't bitch and complain.




At least he's not as whiny as some Liberals on this forum.  prob the touch of the common man that's missing in some.


----------



## noco

DB008 said:


> Set top boxes for the oldies.
> Baby bonus is also getting a hair cut soon to try to meet targets.
> 
> Climategate Mk I - Copenhagen - noting achieved.
> Climategate MkII - Durban - started 28/11/11.




Don't forget Cancun Mexico last year and the $599,000 Combet donated to the UN Climate change committee.


----------



## Eager

sails said:


> lol - just like the carbon tax?





Free enterprisin' conservative rogues saw the Pink Batts scheme as a rort and acted accordingly, costing lives and dozens of houses along the way; I hope you're proud.


----------



## noco

Eager said:


> The older you get, the better you were.
> 
> 
> Damn effective too, with 130+ bills passed so far.
> 
> 
> I’d like to talk about that issue. The Pink Batts scheme (not Pinkd bats, *loco*) was an absolutely brilliant idea; it was only its implementation that was flawed.
> 
> The true winner out of the entire scheme was Darwin’s Theory. It wasn’t Rudd, Garrett, Gillard or Labor, who drove nails through live wiring or created fire danger through poor installation techniques.
> 
> Let’s suppose, just for a minute, that no fly-by-night businesses were set up to carry out the work, as there were by hundreds of unethical, free enterprising, rorting, rogue, child or untrained labour using scumbags (such free enterprisin’ folk normally vote a particular way too). Instead, let’s suppose, just for a minute, that every installer of the batts was properly accredited and licenced to carry out the work, with the appropriate regulatory or watchdog bodies watching over them and who they employed. The job would have been done properly the first time, to everyone’s benefit.
> 
> *sigh* The Pink Batts scheme failed because some people saw it as nothing more than a money-making exercise!




Poorly planned, poorly organized, poorly supervised. A TYPICAL LABOR PARTY STUFF UP. 
History shows the Labor Party could not organize a p*^s up in a brewery. Four deaths and 180 house fires.and you say Labor did a good job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is to blame? Oh no, not your beloved Labor Party. It's a wonder they didn't blame Tony Abbott.


----------



## DB008

So_Cynical said:


> For the record.
> 
> Copenhagen was COP 15  (Conferences of the Parties - COP) the 15th major conference.
> Durban is COP 17 (Conferences of the Parties - COP) the 17th major conference.
> 
> COP 1 was held in Berlin in 1995...just in case anyone is delusional enough to think that all this climate stuff is something new.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Framework_Convention_on_Climate_Change
> 
> At least he's not as whiny as some Liberals on this forum.  prob the touch of the common man that's missing in some.





How STUPID of me. 
Sorry, my bad.


----------



## IFocus

Eager said:


> The older you get, the better you were.




LOL yes I was a real legend in my own lunch box   in the 80's gold boom one job I had there was no R&R ended up spending two years out there...........ended up with a bank roll and 8 acres in Margret River as a result them was the days........

Now of course kids go out now on fly in / out and blow it on V8 Utes and ice.


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> I’d like to talk about that issue. The Pink Batts scheme (not Pinkd bats, *loco*) was an absolutely brilliant idea; it was only its implementation that was flawed.
> 
> The true winner out of the entire scheme was Darwin’s Theory. It wasn’t Rudd, Garrett, Gillard or Labor, who drove nails through live wiring or created fire danger through poor installation techniques.
> 
> Let’s suppose, just for a minute, that no fly-by-night businesses were set up to carry out the work, as there were by hundreds of unethical, free enterprising, rorting, rogue, child or untrained labour using scumbags (such free enterprisin’ folk normally vote a particular way too). Instead, let’s suppose, just for a minute, that every installer of the batts was properly accredited and licenced to carry out the work, with the appropriate regulatory or watchdog bodies watching over them and who they employed. The job would have been done properly the first time, to everyone’s benefit.
> 
> *sigh* The Pink Batts scheme failed because some people saw it as nothing more than a money-making exercise!



Quite true.  But let's be clear about whom to blame here:  if the government had put in place strict conditions/proof of proper training, the rorting would have been minimised.
Instead, they allowed any idjit and his dog to register to implement the scheme simply by completing a ten minute online Q & A then attending a brief 'workshop'.  No qualifying was carried out following this 'workshop'.  You could have slept through it and gone on your merry money making way.

  This done, voila, you're a fully registered and capable installer.

Of course it was a total shambles as a result.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> LOL yes I was a real legend in my own lunch box   in the 80's gold boom one job I had there was no R&R ended up spending two years out there...........ended up with a bank roll and 8 acres in Margret River as a result them was the days........
> 
> Now of course kids go out now on fly in / out and blow it on V8 Utes and ice.




You've got that right.
By the way Ifocus what do you think of this one.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ustralian-greens/story-e6freonf-1226210635178

Never a better time to get rid of workers conditions, than when the government, unions and industrial relations commission are in bed together.LOL
At least when the Libs are in you know who the enemy is. How many times did you hear that in the workshop and the labor party are wondering why they are becoming unpopular.IMO


----------



## sails

Eager said:


> Free enterprisin' conservative rogues saw the Pink Batts scheme as a rort and acted accordingly, costing lives and dozens of houses along the way; I hope you're proud.




No, not proud at all.  I didn't agree with the way tax payer funds were being thrown around without strict guidelines and requirements for installation.

We were living in a rental property and the owner wanted the batts installed. We had no say in organising it - just given a ballpark for when it would happen.  About four shirtless youngsters hauled the batts in off the back of a trailer and were gone again in record time.  Thankfully we weren't burned to death.


----------



## sptrawler

Just watched Cameron on Bolt. He was bagging Gillard but then checked himself when he said they had to focus on the bigger issues, jobs, I think he meant to say his pension.LOL LOL LOL

This has to implode the bullsh!t and lies has to fall over.


----------



## DB008

IFocus said:


> Soft......... I used to do 3 to 6 months months and 1 week off construction in the 70's Newman / Tom Price.




I bow down to you 'o gracious one.


----------



## trainspotter

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Gillard's socialism worked (same as  our PM taxing everything and giving it to the “disadvantaged”) and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. 

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Gillard's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. 

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. 
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. 

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. 

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. 
It could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on) 
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections. 
These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Cheers and beers ..... TS


----------



## Knobby22

Trainspotter, that is a reworked USA blurb aimed at retaining the tax cuts for the rich despite the nation not being able to afford them.  There is a balance surely.


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> Trainspotter, that is a reworked USA blurb aimed at retaining the tax cuts for the rich despite the nation not being able to afford them.  There is a balance surely.




Yes Knobby there is balance the government just got it a 30% pay rise.
Have to lock in the higher pension before they get slung out of office.
Given by a (cough) independent (cough) body.

By the way is the $400 cut to the baby bonus through yet, to pay for this? LOL, LOL, LOL
We don't want any delays, god no.


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> Yes Knobby there is balance the government just got it a 30% pay rise.
> Have to lock in the higher pension before they get slung out of office.
> Given by a (cough) independent (cough) body.
> 
> By the way is the $400 cut to the baby bonus through yet, to pay for this? LOL, LOL, LOL
> We don't want any delays, god no.




I heard a Nation politician supporting the pay rise this morning. 

By the way, you know the baby bonus cut had a 9 month and 1 day lead time before it takes effect. Good reason to get the pregnancy happening.  LOL


----------



## trainspotter

Knobby22 said:


> Trainspotter, that is a reworked USA blurb aimed at retaining the tax cuts for the rich despite the nation not being able to afford them.  There is a balance surely.




Yes and NO ........ read between the lines irrespective of the origin.  

As sptrawler clearly states ..... 30% pay increase??? WTF ??? We have a 20 billion dollar black hole and they are now starting to cut costs and increase taxes !! Sound familiar??


----------



## Logique

Where's our $900 for a plasma tv?


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Where's our $900 for a plasma tv?



That will now get a 50"+ plasma, a 500GB twin tuner PVR and change for lollies.

Pity about the future cost of electricity to run it.


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> Where's our $900 for a plasma tv?




We can't afford it Logique, weve got a huge pay rise to fund. Just get in line for the trough, the pollies have their noses in it at the moment. Wait your turn.LOL LOL
What do you mean you never get a go.


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> Trainspotter, that is a reworked USA blurb aimed at retaining the tax cuts for the rich despite the nation not being able to afford them.  There is a balance surely.



 Knobby, I first encountered that piece long before the current argument about US tax cuts was happening.
I think it's pretty right.  Human beings need incentive.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Knobby, I first encountered that piece long before the current argument about US tax cuts was happening.
> I think it's pretty right.  Human beings need incentive.




It was written during Bush's time when he gave the tax cuts to the rich (only the rich) while he ran up the deficit. Of course humans need incentives but within a framework of civilised society. 

I believe old people should be looked after with a pension. 
I believe kindergartens should be available for young children and we should have public parklands.
That the rich shouldn't own all the beachfront land but it should be kept for the public.

There is a balance.


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> I believe old people should be looked after with a pension.



Agree.  People can't work when they're old and infirm.
How do you believe this pension should be funded?



> I believe kindergartens should be available for young children



Funded by?
What do you see as the essential advantage of kindergartens?



> we should have public parklands.



Agree absolutely.  And lots of them.



> That the rich shouldn't own all the beachfront land but it should be kept for the public.



Are you suggesting that at present 'the rich' do own all the beachfront land?

I happen to live in a regional centre of around 55,000 on the coast.  All the beachfront land is available to the public, even including some very unattractive caravan parks right on the beach.
As you say in a different context above, there should be a balance.  Some of this prime land should be privately developed for public or quasi public access, eg cafes, quality hotels, instead of so many crappy caravan parks which are half empty for two thirds of the year.


----------



## nulla nulla

drsmith said:


> That will now get a 50"+ plasma, a 500GB twin tuner PVR and change for lollies.
> 
> Pity about the future cost of electricity to run it.




Go for the 42" LED LCD digital at JB HI FI, the 500gb twin tuner PVR and a good hdmi cable. Runs on less power.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Agree.  People can't work when they're old and infirm.
> How do you believe this pension should be funded?
> 
> 
> Funded by?
> What do you see as the essential advantage of kindergartens?




Socialisation of children. Generally the people using the Kindergatens should pay for them as a non profit operation as occurs now. They should be (and are in Australia) protected in Australia from being sold and turned into housing for profit. This does not occur in some countries as it is "socialist". 

With regard to the pension, I agree with compulsory super (considered socialist by some governments) to try to get people to look after themselves. If they can't for whatever reason be it lifelong sickness or something else, we should let them have a pension to meet their basic requirements.



Julia said:


> Are you suggesting that at present 'the rich' do own all the beachfront land?
> 
> I happen to live in a regional centre of around 55,000 on the coast.  All the beachfront land is available to the public, even including some very unattractive caravan parks right on the beach.
> As you say in a different context above, there should be a balance.  Some of this prime land should be privately developed for public or quasi public access, eg cafes, quality hotels, instead of so many crappy caravan parks which are half empty for two thirds of the year.




In Australia this is true. In many countries, the public is designated a small beach and the rich own the rest. We are lucky here. That's what I mean by balance. If you were truly right wing you would say it should be dod eat dog and may the strongest win.

Those caravan parks don't sound good. You need vision from the council and State government combined with investment in public infrastructure and design combined with free enterprise being able to take advantage of this to create the right "village atmosphere". I sort of work in this area so I have seen what a good combination of public forethought and controls combined with private investment can achieve.


----------



## Calliope

Happy as pigs in sh*t.


----------



## sptrawler

A picture says a thousand words.


----------



## IFocus

DB008 said:


> I bow down to you 'o gracious one.





I was single at the time last gig I did out in the bush was a 3 and 1 (gold) I found it hard after so long but there were a large number of married guys for them it was really hard, when I got married I never went back.


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> Socialisation of children. Generally the people using the Kindergatens should pay for them as a non profit operation as occurs now. They should be (and are in Australia) protected in Australia from being sold and turned into housing for profit. This does not occur in some countries as it is "socialist".



Thanks, Knobby.  That's what I'd hoped you would say.  I agree.



> With regard to the pension, I agree with compulsory super (considered socialist by some governments) to try to get people to look after themselves. If they can't for whatever reason be it lifelong sickness or something else, we should let them have a pension to meet their basic requirements.



Again, my position also.  However, I have some sympathy with those who resent having a proportion of their income compulsorily taken for Super when they are young, feeling they are more than capable of providing for their own retirement.

I guess this is an example of where we have to accept some limitation of our personal freedom for the greater good, in that if many people less determined and capable than above were left to their own devices, they'd reach retirement without having saved a single dollar.
Imo the current system is a pretty good balance.



> Those caravan parks don't sound good.



They are not.  It's a tragic waste of prime land with wonderful views.



> You need vision from the council and State government combined with investment in public infrastructure and design combined with free enterprise being able to take advantage of this to create the right "village atmosphere".



Couldn't agree more.  Sadly, the above qualities seem entirely lacking, despite council rates that are higher than those for prime real estate in Sydney's best suburbs.

One of the problems with local councils is that no competent people want the hassle of dealing with citizens who just want to whine about minor issues.  So we end up with idjits who seek the pretty decent salary but who lack any of the basic levels of competence to run any sort of enterprise.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Julia said:


> *However, I have some sympathy with those who resent having a* *proportion of their income compulsorily taken for Super when they are young,* feeling they are more than capable of providing for their own retirement.
> 
> I guess this is an example of where we have to accept some limitation of our personal freedom for the greater good, in that if many people less determined and capable than above were left to their own devices, they'd reach retirement without having saved a single dollar.



I think compulsory superannuation is additional to our wages and not a deduction.


----------



## Julia

Wysiwyg said:


> I think compulsory superannuation is additional to our wages and not a deduction.



Surely any negotiation between employer and prospective employee is going to be about the total package, including Super?
If I were employing someone I'd be counting the Super contribution as part of that person's salary package, just like a company car e.g.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Julia said:


> Surely any negotiation between employer and prospective employee is going to be about the total package, including Super?
> If I were employing someone I'd be counting the Super contribution as part of that person's salary package, just like a company car e.g.



Everywhere I have worked there is an award wage minimum which the employer pays. They are obliged by law to pay this award wage at minimum and this encompasses the group working in that industry. Sure there are individual agreements but the majority are award wages and above. There won't be across the board individual contracts as proposed by the Coalition government when they get in. Union of workers will stand steadfast by what conditions and wages that have been negotiated and fought for to date.


----------



## Julia

Wysiwyg said:


> Everywhere I have worked ......



We've obviously had somewhat different working environments.  

Maybe consider your own signature line:


> Pull your own strings or someone else will.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Julia said:


> We've obviously had somewhat different working environments.



 Yes, _I know_ the Australian working class. 



> However, I have some sympathy with those who resent having a proportion of their income compulsorily taken for Super when they are young,



The fact is that compulsory superannuation is additional to a wage or salary, not a deduction. I suggest you get your facts in order.


----------



## demiser

Wysiwyg said:


> Yes, _I know_ the Australian working class.
> 
> The fact is that compulsory superannuation is additional to a wage or salary, not a deduction. I suggest you get your facts in order.




I guess it comes down to your place of employment, as where I am now, we get a 'package', and even when all the extras come out, and we are talking about the base rate, super IS included (i.e. to get your salary, you need to deduct the super)



Wysiwyg said:


> Union of workers will stand steadfast by what conditions and wages that have been negotiated and fought for to date.




Again, I think each work place will differ. Some people would prefer more money with little flexibility, others would rather have bonuses linked to targets, and there are also those that would rather do away with the 7.5 hour 'hard fought for' hours if it means they have flexibility to go pick the kids up from school etc.

horses for courses


----------



## Eager

I think what has been forgotten here is that not everybody is on a salary, and packaging does not apply. In fact, those employees that work for an hourly rate are probably in the majority, and for them, superannuation should always be something over and above.


----------



## demiser

Eager said:


> I think what has been forgotten here is that not everybody is on a salary, and packaging does not apply. In fact, those employees that work for an hourly rate are probably in the majority, and for them, superannuation should always be something over and above.




I have no experience in the wage area, and can only speak of what I know about my brother who works as a carpenter, but don't they sort of package their wage to a degree anyway ? (similar to a contractor in my line of work)

A tradie gets an hourly wage, and that will include:
 - real wage
 - super
 - tools
 - transport etc
 - holidays / sick 
 - other ?

If super goes up, and the market won't accept the tradies pay rise, then the tradie's real wage either decreases, or they just don't pay into super.

The last time I employed a tradie, I didn't see a 'super' breakdown on their bill . . .


----------



## Eager

I'm talking about employees working for wages in secondary industry. Believe it or not, there are still (hundreds of?) thousands of them in this country.

They _might_ be paid a tool allowance that is built into their rate; travel is normally only paid in the construction industry; holiday loading if it applies is paid separately etc and sick pay will be paid at the normal annual rate, but come out of a different 'bucket.' But super will always appear as a separate line item on his or her payslip, paid on the workers behalf.

Some wage employees might receive an _annualised_ wage, which averages out leave loading etc to provide a consistent pay amount every fortnight or whatever, but it is still not a salary. In short, a salary means you get paid the same regardless of the amount of hours worked. As an aside, did anyone hear on the news the other day that every year in Australia it is estimated that 2 billion hours are worked but not paid for - overtime - I'm making the assumption that the great majority of them are workers who receive a salary. Poor buggers. 

demiser, if you employed a tradie there are only two alternatives: either he was self-employed and looked after his own super, or you, as his employer, shoulda paid it for him! In any case it would only appear on his payslip, not an invoice.


----------



## DB008

IFocus said:


> Soft......... I used to do 3 to 6 months months and 1 week off construction in the 70's Newman / Tom Price.






IFocus said:


> I was single at the time last gig I did out in the bush was a 3 and 1 (gold) I found it hard after so long but there were a large number of married guys for them it was really hard, when I got married I never went back.




So, which one was it?

I was doing 4 & 1 for a few years. I'll be honest, when doing 4 & 1, the 4th week is bloody hard (it's a killer with only having 1 day off in the whole month). Have done a few 5 week stints and your health is more important than money.


----------



## IFocus

DB008 said:


> So, which one was it?
> 
> I was doing 4 & 1 for a few years. I'll be honest, when doing 4 & 1, the 4th week is bloody hard (it's a killer with only having 1 day off in the whole month). Have done a few 5 week stints and your health is more important than money.




I started in the late 70's you had to drive in those days as a contractor drugs and alcohol was a case of who was your dealer LOL, men were men etc , lived in the NW at various times then ended up doing gold fly in / out  final trip 91.........

Dannyboy understand 4 /1 is hard average punter wouldn't get it.


----------



## sptrawler

Yes Dannyboy and Ifocus, I hear a lot of people bitching about the money being earned in the mines. I don't see a queue on St Georges Terrace trying to get up there. LOL

Everybody wants to earn $120k+, not many want to work in 40deg+ for 60 hrs/wk while spending75% of your life living in a donga. 
By the way you fly home in your own time. Rollup, rollup plenty of jobs.LOL

At least Julian Grylls is trying to make it so families can stay together. He deserves a pat on the back.


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> As an aside, did anyone hear on the news the other day that every year in Australia it is estimated that 2 billion hours are worked but not paid for - overtime - I'm making the assumption that the great majority of them are workers who receive a salary. Poor buggers.



Well, here you have the divide between those who function in a union controlled environment and those who are able to negotiate their own conditions, I guess.

Unpaid overtime?   Of course.  Whatever it takes at times of pressure to get the job done properly.  It's about believing in what you're doing and understanding that when you want some time for something personal there will be no hesitation in this being available.  It's called 'give and take' and is the stuff on which productive and satisfying workplace relationships are forged.  It's about mutual co-operation.

With tax free benefits and allowances, company car etc., those people who understand a mutually productive relationship will win every time.
Not to mention the greatly more pleasant working environment compared to one in which there's a constant squabble over pay and conditions.


----------



## JTLP

Julia said:


> Well, here you have the divide between those who function in a union controlled environment and those who are able to negotiate their own conditions, I guess.
> 
> Unpaid overtime?   Of course.  Whatever it takes at times of pressure to get the job done properly.  It's about believing in what you're doing and understanding that when you want some time for something personal there will be no hesitation in this being available.  It's called 'give and take' and is the stuff on which productive and satisfying workplace relationships are forged.  It's about mutual co-operation.
> 
> With tax free benefits and allowances, company car etc., those people who understand a mutually productive relationship will win every time.
> Not to mention the greatly more pleasant working environment compared to one in which there's a constant squabble over pay and conditions.




Spot on Julia. 'Unpaid overtime' allows me to work from home if I like and shoot off from work to the doctor etc. Early Fridays another incentive. Can't imagine too many hourly wagers getting this...


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> Everybody wants to earn $120k+, not many want to work in 40deg+ for 60 hrs/wk while spending75% of your life living in a donga.
> By the way you fly home in your own time. Rollup, rollup plenty of jobs.LOL




12 (or 10 on construction) hours per day, 7 days a week = 84 (or 70) hours per week, plus overtime, so close to 100 hours per week. 

*sptrawler*, I was over it after doing that for a few years. As they say, do it while your young...


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Well, here you have the divide between those who function in a union controlled environment and those who are able to negotiate their own conditions, I guess.
> 
> Unpaid overtime?   Of course.  Whatever it takes at times of pressure to get the job done properly.  It's about believing in what you're doing and understanding that when you want some time for something personal there will be no hesitation in this being available.  It's called 'give and take' and is the stuff on which productive and satisfying workplace relationships are forged.  It's about mutual co-operation.
> 
> With tax free benefits and allowances, company car etc., those people who understand a mutually productive relationship will win every time.
> Not to mention the greatly more pleasant working environment compared to one in which there's a constant squabble over pay and conditions.




Spot on Julia, this is what Smurph was alluding to on another thread. Just because you push up wages for a job doesn't mean you get better people.
Sometimes the ones with the least ability but the loudest voice, push for increased wages but lose conditions. 
That may be because the perks weren't extended to them, as they may have been low achievers.IMO
Anyway lets just keep working towards the lowest common denominator. Funnily enough I think Bob will work this out and realise he is in a very bad place.


----------



## Eager

Too busy to reply properly now, but I will 'soon' start a new thread on wages vs salary (I've done both) to avoid hijacking this thread. There is lots to talk about.

Later


----------



## joea

Eager said:


> As an aside, did anyone hear on the news the other day that every year in Australia it is estimated that 2 billion hours are worked but not paid for - overtime - I'm making the assumption that the great majority of them are workers who receive a salary. Poor buggers.




Hi. I was a salary person. I was the Production Manager of a sugar mill. Sugar Chemist.
I was on call 24 hrs. when the mill operated.The reason for this was, that a mechanical breakdown was accepted, but mill stoppages by production were frowned on. Manager was a ex- sugar chemist.
Early in my career I figured out if I helped the operators to be really good, then they could solve the problems for themselves.
What actually happened was the more you helped them, the more they would want to learn. Well what eventuated was a mill that performed really well in efficiency( top of the state generally) and we were always in the top 3 in Qld. for sugar quality.
I received a free house, basically free power, a good superannuation scheme(defined benefit) and if  I got sick I was  covered by my salary.

I was also sent for a trip with a director around the world, to learn about prawn farming.
When I built my house, I currently live in, I owned it the day after the builder finished.
I could never have done any of the above on wages and overtime.

Was I short changed? Maybe!
Do I regret it? No!
Did we have a high turnover of personnel? No!

Life goes on!
joea


----------



## Julia

Back to the government:   The Labor Party conference is up and running.
The world is facing financial chaos.
People here  at home are becoming more and more stressed about the rising cost of living, the forthcoming carbon tax, various other real concerns.

But what is the Labor conference obsessed with?  Gay Marriage!!!
Unbelievable.


----------



## dutchie

Julia said:


> Back to the government:   The Labor Party conference is up and running.
> The world is facing financial chaos.
> People here  at home are becoming more and more stressed about the rising cost of living, the forthcoming carbon tax, various other real concerns.
> 
> But what is the Labor conference obsessed with?  Gay Marriage!!!
> Unbelievable.




That says it all about this Labor government.

Unbelievable and dumb.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Back to the government:   The Labor Party conference is up and running.
> The world is facing financial chaos.
> People here  at home are becoming more and more stressed about the rising cost of living, the forthcoming carbon tax, various other real concerns.
> 
> But what is the Labor conference obsessed with?  Gay Marriage!!!
> Unbelievable.




Well it's important to Bob and Penny, who cares what the other 22million people worry about.
This is the new labor party and their new theme song " what about me " 
They have only 18 months or so to get all their weird and wonderfull policies through, before they are slung out.


----------



## explod

Julia said:


> Back to the government:   The Labor Party conference is up and running.
> The world is facing financial chaos.
> People here  at home are becoming more and more stressed about the rising cost of living, the forthcoming carbon tax, various other real concerns.
> 
> But what is the Labor conference obsessed with?  Gay Marriage!!!
> Unbelievable.




There are many other important issues being discussed but the gay one is what the press is focusing on.  Which is typical of the press in my view.


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> There are many other important issues being discussed but the gay one is what the press is focusing on.  Which is typical of the press in my view.




Typical of the political left is what I would have thought. Your leader Bob Brown is very keen on the idea. The whole concept is ridiculous.


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> Typical of the political left is what I would have thought. Your leader Bob Brown is very keen on the idea.




*And so ?*, he cannot help the way he was born.

Many do not have the intellect to realise, one it is neurological and two, we should be able to please ourselves in what we do, *democracy*.

Marriage is a commitment to each other and at the end of the day it has nothing to do with ceremony or religion.

I have seen many saint looking people be married lavishly to only break up after a few short years.

And a gay couple would draw less pension than trwo unmarried gays living togeter.


----------



## noco

This gay marriage crap is a typical Labor Party diversion from the real issues  of cost of living due to the increased taxes. What else could one expect from an athiest Prime Minister who prefers to live in sin, the psuedo Prime Minister who is gay and the Finance Minister who is a lesbian. If they want to live together so be it, but I cannot believe it is necessary to make it legally binding. 

Marriage is between a man and a woman and should be upheld for the sake of family values. What child would want to be raised by two mothers or two fathers? It is just plain wrong.


----------



## explod

noco said:


> Prime Minister who prefers to live in sin, .




What is that word *sin*?

And who are you that you can point a finger.

And remember what Jesus himself said,  "Let thou without sin cast the first stone"

Get off you high horse, how dare you judge others.


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Yes Dannyboy and Ifocus, I hear a lot of people bitching about the money being earned in the mines. I don't see a queue on St Georges Terrace trying to get up there. LOL
> 
> Everybody wants to earn $120k+, not many want to work in 40deg+ for 60 hrs/wk while spending75% of your life living in a donga.
> By the way you fly home in your own time. Rollup, rollup plenty of jobs.LOL
> 
> At least Julian Grylls is trying to make it so families can stay together. He deserves a pat on the back.



 800 kids enrolled in Karratha primary school next year,long way to go yet


----------



## pilots

IFocus said:


> I started in the late 70's you had to drive in those days as a contractor drugs and alcohol was a case of who was your dealer LOL, men were men etc , lived in the NW at various times then ended up doing gold fly in / out  final trip 91.........
> 
> Dannyboy understand 4 /1 is hard average punter wouldn't get it.





Mate you think 4/1 is hard, we worked every day, 12 hours aday, and worked 92 days on and 92 days off, this way we did not have to pay any Australian tax.


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> *And so ?*, he cannot help the way he was born.
> 
> Many do not have the intellect to realise, one it is neurological and two, we should be able to please ourselves in what we do, *democracy*.



Perhaps more biological than neurological?

Whatever, my comment was not about the origins of homosexuality.
And it's not made in a sense of homophobia.
I couldn't care less who has sex with whom as long as little children and animals are not involved.  
Don't most states already have legislation which provides for civil unions which confer all the same legal rights (eg superannuation) on people living in same sex relationships?

The above is all an aside.
My point was that we are at a time when the world is facing immense challenges from financial and social points of view, all needing urgent attention, and the Labor Party seems to just ignore all this in their oh so important Conference, and instead focus on an issue most of the population couldn't care less about.

Again, it's just unbelievable to me.
If they can't come up with an agreed position on such a minor issue, what on earth is their hope for good policy on something important????


----------



## noco

explod said:


> What is that word *sin*?
> 
> And who are you that you can point a finger.
> 
> And remember what Jesus himself said,  "Let thou without sin cast the first stone"
> 
> Get off you high horse, how dare you judge others.




This is a free country.

This is a country of freedom of speech.

I will say what I damn well like so long it is the truth even if YOU don't like it. 

All three, the Prime Minister, the psuedo Prime Minister and the Finance Minister are all hypocrites.

If you want to quote Jesus and the Bible, perhaps you should read the real meaning of marriage as per link below.

The Bible clearly denounces homosexuality and lesbians. 

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-what-the-bible-says-about-marriage.htm


----------



## noco

noco said:


> This is a free country.
> 
> This is a country of freedom of speech.
> 
> I will say what I damn well like so long it is the truth even if YOU don't like it.
> 
> All three, the Prime Minister, the psuedo Prime Minister and the Finance Minister are all hypocrites.
> 
> If you want to quote Jesus and the Bible, perhaps you should read the real meaning of marriage as per link below.
> 
> The Bible clearly denounces homosexuality and lesbians.
> 
> http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-what-the-bible-says-about-marriage.htm




Explod, perhaps you may like to read more what the Bible says about same sex marriages.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html


----------



## sptrawler

explod said:


> *And so ?*, he cannot help the way he was born.
> 
> Many do not have the intellect to realise, one it is neurological and two, we should be able to please ourselves in what we do, *democracy*.
> 
> Marriage is a commitment to each other and at the end of the day it has nothing to do with ceremony or religion.
> 
> I have seen many saint looking people be married lavishly to only break up after a few short years.
> 
> And a gay couple would draw less pension than trwo unmarried gays living togeter.




Explod my take on it and I'm not religous, homophobic or homosexual. 
Marriage is just a contract between a man and woman, that is there to give the offspring some legal rights.
It's a verbal and written contract in front of witnesses to ensure there is every intention of staying together to bring up any children you have. In a wholesome family unit. We all know this can fail but the intention is there.
I tend to feel that the Gay community are trying to make themselves feel more mainstream by adopting marriage as a requirement for a couple to be "normal".
When in reality it was designed less for the couple, but more to do with the product of the couple.
I am sure there are many other institutions that we can adapt to suit our desired moral outcome, but does that make it right.
A lot of these ceremonies were put in place to maintain order, in times when in was required.IMO

Actually just thought, any couple can make kids, marriage is just a mutual commitment to take responsiblity for them.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> This is a free country.
> 
> This is a country of freedom of speech.
> 
> I will say what I damn well like so long it is the truth even if YOU don't like it.
> 
> All three, the Prime Minister, the psuedo Prime Minister and the Finance Minister are all hypocrites.
> 
> If you want to quote Jesus and the Bible, perhaps you should read the real meaning of marriage as per link below.
> 
> The Bible clearly denounces homosexuality and lesbians.
> 
> http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-what-the-bible-says-about-marriage.htm




What does the bible say about bigots.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Explod my take on it and I'm not religous, homophobic or homosexual.
> Marriage is just a contract between a man and woman, that is there to give the offspring some legal rights.
> It's a verbal and written contract in front of witnesses to ensure there is every intention of staying together to bring up any children you have. In a wholesome family unit. We all know this can fail but the intention is there.
> I tend to feel that the Gay community are trying to make themselves feel more mainstream by adopting marriage as a requirement for a couple to be "normal".
> When in reality it was designed less for the couple, but more to do with the product of the couple.
> I am sure there are many other institutions that we can adapt to suit our desired moral outcome, but does that make it right.
> A lot of these ceremonies were put in place to maintain order, in times when in was required.IMO
> 
> Actually just thought, any couple can make kids, marriage is just a mutual commitment to take responsiblity for them.




Just another thought, if men and men can get married, women and women can get married. Why not cousins or brother and brother, sisters, well why bother with the marriage thing at all, it means nothing any way, lets have a free for all.
What will we get into next, the mind boggles.
Oh well life should end up a lot of fun, if history repeats. Shame I will probably be too old to enjoy it. 
I Claudius was a great series. Too much money, too little to spend their time on.LOL
Running a country was way outside their abilities.LOL LOL LOL


----------



## Logique

To be honest I haven't given it much thought. 

Human right vs legal right. If there's going to be a legal right, then I'd imagine stuff like:
- Income splitting on their tax forms, ie reduced national tax take. 
- Requirement for divorce if re-marrying etc. Gays could become bigamists at law. 
- Also superannuation entitlements wouldn't exhaust, but go to the gay husband/wife, ie increased superannuation liabilities on employers, including governments. 
- Legal marriage would presumably strengthen the case for gay couples to adopt. 

The full ramifications of the decision at the ALP conference are yet to be ventilated. So for now it feels a bit like social engineering by stealth (surprise!). 

Dispassionate analysis is necessary, and we  should'nt be suckered in by the inevitable smokescreen accusations of 'homophobe' or 'bigot'.


----------



## noco

todster said:


> What does the bible say about bigots.




todster, that is not my problem to find out about 'bigots' in relation to the bible, however if it is a problem for you, I suggest you do your own research.

The Oxford dictionary defines 'bigot' as obstinate and intolerant adherent of creed or view.

Hope this helps you to understand the meaning.


----------



## Calliope

Speakers at the Gay Rights conference said they wanted to be treated with "dignity and respect." I fail to see how gay marriage would achieve this.

The political marriage between Brown and Gillard was certainly an unnatural act, and it set the scene for the introduction of gay marriage. Neither of them gained any dignity or respect out of this marriage of convenience.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> todster, that is not my problem to find out about 'bigots' in relation to the bible, however if it is a problem for you, I suggest you do your own research.
> 
> The Oxford dictionary defines 'bigot' as obstinate and intolerant adherent of creed or view.
> 
> Hope this helps you to understand the meaning.




Well my dictionary refers me to zealot in relation to religion which i must agree suits you better i am sorry for any offense


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Well my dictionary refers me to zealot in relation to religion which i must agree suits you better i am sorry for any offense




I don't know what you are going on about here todster,for you would have no idea whether I am religious, agnostic or an atheist and it is me to know and you to find out. I would say you are assuming I am religious and you know the old saying about the word 'assume', it makes an ass out of you and me.

The reference to the bible came about through some remark made by explod about 'sin' and his hollier than thou quote made by Jesus some 2000 years ago "Let thou without sin cast the first stone'.

My reference followed thru with quotes from the bible relating to unmarried couples living together and the further reference to gays and lesbians.

You should be sure of your facts before making stupid remarks about another ASF member.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> I don't know what you are going on about here todster,for you would have no idea whether I am religious, agnostic or an atheist and it is me to know and you to find out. I would say you are assuming I am religious and you know the old saying about the word 'assume', it makes an ass out of you and me.
> 
> The reference to the bible came about through some remark made by explod about 'sin' and his hollier than thou quote made by Jesus some 2000 years ago "Let thou without sin cast the first stone'.
> 
> My reference followed thru with quotes from the bible relating to unmarried couples living together and the further reference to gays and lesbians.
> 
> You should be sure of your facts before making stupid remarks about another ASF member.




Oh i am sorry we should meet up i can wear my arseless chaps and give you a big tongue kiss


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> Oh i am sorry we should meet up i can wear my arseless chaps and give you a big tongue kiss




Actually, todster, I'm sure Bob would like a sparky wearing that. Maybe add a toolbelt and hard hat as accessories. LOL


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Actually, todster, I'm sure Bob would like a sparky wearing that. Maybe add a toolbelt and hard hat as accessories. LOL




Lol maybe noco was in the village people


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Oh i am sorry we should meet up i can wear my arseless chaps and give you a big tongue kiss




I feel sorry for you todster. You are sick and need help.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> I feel sorry for you todster. You are sick and need help.




Mmmm not the first time i've heard that
I'ts fun to stay at the YMCA
Cmon dance wit me dont be afraid of your inner homo
Oxford street me you in the bak of a ute dancin
Cant you see it noco:


----------



## sptrawler

Well that was strange on the news, Bob Brown saying Julia is just another John Howard and it is a disgrace.
But Bob aren't you the one who is backing her up and keeping her in power.
Maybe you should listen to the rubish you speak Bob, Oh I forgot it's not about the issues its about your pension.LOL LOL LOL
At your age Bob, it is probably important you lock in a good pension to cover the increased costs, you have brought in.


----------



## Calliope

*"We are us"* I think this sums up the complete lack of any worthwhile progress to come out of the Labor Gay Rights Conference.

Did she mean we are a gay party? Doug Cameron certainly thinks so. Perhaps they hope to win back voters from the Green-gay-loving party.


----------



## explod

Forget about Governments, they are puppets and powerless.  The following is what we should be all concerned about.

Those who control the banks ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5UOZP78O-Q


----------



## explod

noco said:


> This is a free country.
> 
> This is a country of freedom of speech.
> 
> I will say what I damn well like so long it is the truth even if YOU don't like it.
> 
> All three, the Prime Minister, the psuedo Prime Minister and the Finance Minister are all hypocrites.
> 
> If you want to quote Jesus and the Bible, perhaps you should read the real meaning of marriage as per link below.
> 
> The Bible clearly denounces homosexuality and lesbians.
> 
> http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-what-the-bible-says-about-marriage.htm




The bible was created by the people in power.  Have a look at the link just posted up.

Suppose you must believe in Santa too, and how many purses does that control at this time of the year.  To survive one needs to get into the real world.

If two men want to marry and they do not do harm to anyone else, who gives a hoot.

And I am happily married to a woman if you are thinking otherwise but a number of fine people who are good friends are gay and one of them first introduced me to my wife and we have been together now for 15 years.

The world needs to be a more open place and not blinded by fairy tales.


----------



## explod

sptrawler said:


> Just another thought, if men and men can get married, women and women can get married. Why not cousins or brother and brother, sisters, well why bother with the marriage thing at all, it means nothing any way, lets have a free for all.
> What will we get into next, the mind boggles.
> Oh well life should end up a lot of fun, if history repeats. Shame I will probably be too old to enjoy it.
> I Claudius was a great series. Too much money, too little to spend their time on.LOL
> Running a country was way outside their abilities.LOL LOL LOL




I think the genetic nearness of cousins has in the post been the cause of birth defects and is rather different to the same sex marriage discussion.


----------



## sptrawler

explod said:


> I think the genetic nearness of cousins has in the post been the cause of birth defects and is rather different to the same sex marriage discussion.




I think if they are the same sex there isn't much of a problem with genetic nearness, but I guess there is no harm in trying.LOL,LOL,LOL


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> If two men want to marry and they do not do harm to anyone else, who gives a hoot.




Earlier in this thread someone raised the question of euthanasia for which surely the same argument could be made:  i.e. if you want to end your life and will not in so doing make any difference to anyone else's life, why should anyone else object?
I can't see why, but people do, and for some valid reasons.

Why should not similar conventions apply in this situation where marriage is still commonly thought of as a union for the sake of any children between a male and female?

1.  Why do they want to 'marry' when they already have available a Civil Union which confers equal rights in every way?  What additional benefit does this marriage provide to them at the same time as it obviously genuinely offends those who believe marriage is between a male and female?

2.  If they 'marry' who becomes the husband and who becomes the wife?

3.  Do you disregard any notion of a child being the product of a male and a female?
     What is that teaching children about basic biology, just for a start?



> The world needs to be a more open place and not blinded by fairy tales.



What fairy tales?



explod said:


> I think the genetic nearness of cousins has in the post been the cause of birth defects and is rather different to the same sex marriage discussion.



That's true.  However, if 'love' is what defines the reason for people being able to marry, the permutations are endless.  If we accept all these permutations, we might as well forget about any meaning for the institution of marriage imo.

Personally I think it's all just silly.  Marriage between whomever, if it's denoted by some piece of paper, means nothing in terms of the character of the relationship.
It's not going to make unhappy people happy or sustain bad relationships.
Divorce is easy.

I think this whole gay marriage thing is a crock.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Just another thought, if men and men can get married, women and women can get married. Why not cousins or brother and brother, sisters, well why bother with the marriage thing at all, it means nothing any way, lets have a free for all.
> What will we get into next, the mind boggles.
> Oh well life should end up a lot of fun, if history repeats. Shame I will probably be too old to enjoy it.
> I Claudius was a great series. Too much money, too little to spend their time on.LOL
> Running a country was way outside their abilities.LOL LOL LOL




Obviously explod I missed the point I was trying to convey.
Most of these ceremonies and customs were put in place to install a degree of order and system in our communities.
I don't see how breaking them down for no obvious advantage furthers our development as a society.
Like I said, if men and men can get married, women and women, why not cousins, brother to brother and sister to sister. Actually wouldn't it be just as easy to do away with marriage and just have defacto law as the established norm. 
This is the problem when you start adjusting normal to suit your own ends, who decides what is "normal"


----------



## sptrawler

It might only be a small stand, but Father Chris Riley is voicing what several of us on the forum have been saying.
With this minority government in power and all the pandering and backscratching that goes with it.
It tends to lead to fringe policies being forced through, despite the fact they may or may not be appropriate. Thus resulting in policy not reflecting the wishes of the majority of voters. 
Not that I have a stance on the pokie reforms as it really isn't an issue in W.A. 

http://www.smh.com.au/world/7m-jobless-in-us-can-no-longer-claim-dole-20111202-1obew.html


----------



## Julia

sp, your link goes to an article about jobless in the USA.

The good Father has been accused by the fans of pokie pre-commitment of having a conflict of interest in that he apparently receives a pretty large amount of funding from the clubs for his Youth on the Streets program.

He says not, according to ABC radio, and that he's upset about Andrew Wilkie's disproportionate amount of power.  Totally agree with him on that.


----------



## sptrawler

That was a strange one, thanks Julia, here's the link.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/why-i-joi...pokie-reform-father-chris-20111207-1ohvp.html


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> I think this whole gay marriage thing is a crock.



Yes.

Gays say they want equality, but in reality, what they are seeking is a concession.


----------



## sptrawler

Just wondering, If this all goes through, will it be as easy to bring over a "lady boy" from Thailand.
As a Thai female bride?


----------



## Eager

sptrawler said:


> Just wondering, If this all goes through, will it be as easy to bring over a "lady boy" from Thailand as a Thai female bride?



Have you had difficulties with this in the past?


----------



## pixel

The ANT AND THE  GRASSHOPPER 
Two Different Versions  ...... with Different Morals 

*OLD VERSION: 

*The ant works  hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up  supplies for the winter. 
The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and  laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the ant is warm  and well fed. 
The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the  cold.

*MORAL OF THE OLD STORY:
Be responsible for  yourself!*


*MODERN VERSION:

*The ant works hard in the withering heat and  the rain all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the  winter. 

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances  and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper  calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to  be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving. 

Channel 7,9,  & 10 News, and A Current Affair show up to provide pictures of the  shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with  a table filled with food. The country is stunned by the sharp contrast.  

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper  is allowed to suffer so? 

Julia Gillard appears on A Current Affair  with the grasshopper and everybody cries.

The Green Party stages a  demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the  group singing 'We shall overcome.'

Green Party Leader Bob Brown condemns  the ant and blames The Liberals, Capitalism and Global warming for the  grasshopper's plight. Wayne Swan exclaims in an interview with TV News that  the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an  immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share. 

Finally  to gain votes to win an election , the Government drafts the Economic Equity  & Anti- Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.  

The ant is fined for failing to consider how his hard work and  preparation has affected the Grasshoppers Mana and, having nothing left to  pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated under the Government Land  Repo Act and given to the grasshopper.

The story ends as we see the  grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the  ant's food while the government confiscated house he is in, which, as you  recall, just happens to be the ant ´s old house, crumbles around them because  the grasshopper doesn't maintain it. 

The ant has disappeared to  Vanuatu, never to be seen  again.

The grasshopper is found dead in a Drugs related incident, and the  house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of Skinhead spiders who  terrorise the once prosperous and peaceful, neighbourhood.

*MORAL  OF THIS STORY: 
Be careful how you vote !*


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> Have you had difficulties with this in the past?




No, none what so ever a lot of my friends are married to Thai's.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Thanks Pixel. Just e-mailed that story to many.


----------



## sptrawler

Pixel, too close to the truth to comment on. 
I will cop the reprisals of the grasshoppers mates. 
Anything could happen my house and family could by targeted for being sympathetic to hard working Australians.
Sorry mate, it's just too risky.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> No, none what so ever a lot of my friends are married to Thai's.



Um, sp, I might be wrong, but I suspect Eager's post was rather tongue in cheek.

Following Pixel's story about the ant and the grasshopper, the following was broadcast this evening on ABC Local Radio.



> The Difference Between a Left Winger and a Conservative. Ain't this the truth?
> 
> If a conservative doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one. If a left wingerl doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.
> 
> If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn't` eat meat. If a left winger is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.
> 
> If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat his enemy. If a left winger wonders how to surrender gracefully and still look good.
> 
> If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life. If a left wingerl is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.
> 
> If a person of color is conservative, they see themselves as independently successful. Their left wing counterparts see themselves as victims in need of government protection.
> 
> If a conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation. A left winger wonders who is going to take care of him.
> 
> If a conservative doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels. Left wingers demand that those they don't like be shut down.
> 
> If a conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church. A left wing non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced. (Unless it's a foreign religion, of course!)
> 
> If a conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it. A left winger demands that the rest of us pay for his.
> 
> If a conservative slips and falls in a store, he gets up, laughs and is embarrassed. If a left winger slips and falls, he grabs his neck, moans like he's in labor and then sues.
> 
> If a conservative reads this, he'll forward it so his friends can have a good laugh.
> 
> A left winger will delete it because he's "offended".


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Um, sp, I might be wrong, but I suspect Eager's post was rather tongue in cheek




Yes,I was just quantifying which tonque in which cheek.
The fact still remains it opens a lot of avenues for bringing people to Australia under the spouse ruling, that are not available at the moment.
Just think on the ramifications of that one.IMO
By the way if I am way off track, someone put me straight, in this politicaly correct world.


----------



## sptrawler

Well, Duh, even the S.M.H has woken up to the fact the whole country is being railroaded by a minor party.
It's just a shame it has taken so long, the resulting pain will be a lasting reminder.LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-now-practises-what-greens-preach-20111207-1oj3m.html

The greens have brought about change, that probably would not have happened, other than for the self centered self serving labor goons, feathering their own nests.
Well thats my opinion, it could be wrong.LOL


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> Um, sp, I might be wrong, but I suspect Eager's post was rather tongue in cheek.
> 
> Following Pixel's story about the ant and the grasshopper, the following was broadcast this evening on ABC Local Radio.




That's a very interesting post and though I would regard myself as centrist, but leaning a bit to the conservative side, I would't agree with every item.



> If a conservative doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one. If a left wingerl doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.




John Howard outlawed most guns



> If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life. If a left wingerl is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.




Weren't some of the most vocal homophobes in America outed as being closet homosexuals. For example - evangelical pastor Ted Haggard. Except he wanted homosexuality outlawed, not legalised.



> If a conservative slips and falls in a store, he gets up, laughs and is embarrassed. If a left winger slips and falls, he grabs his neck, moans like he's in labor and then sues.




I can't remember the guys name, but wasn't it a Liberal MP or Senator that sued some bicycle rental shop in Canberra after he fell off a rental bike near parliament and received some minor injuries, even though the store owner had warned him that he was too heavy for the bike. I am going back perhaps 15 years or more.


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> Well, Duh, even the S.M.H has woken up to the fact the whole country is being railroaded by a minor party. http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-now-practises-what-greens-preach-20111207-1oj3m.html Well thats my opinion, it could be wrong.LOL



Good article from P Sheehan, for which as bloggers said, Labor staffers will hammer him, in typical 'play the man' style.

The forum has been onto these charlatans for a long time.


----------



## medicowallet

sptrawler said:


> Just wondering, If this all goes through, will it be as easy to bring over a "lady boy" from Thailand.
> As a Thai female bride?




This is a very interesting point. I wonder if the government is contemplating this and whether there is any $$ to be made bring males over from other countries (not a sexist comment, a realist comment)


----------



## Calliope

bellenuit said:


> I can't remember the guys name, but wasn't it a Liberal MP or Senator that sued some bicycle rental shop in Canberra after he fell off a rental bike near parliament and received some minor injuries, even though the store owner had warned him that he was too heavy for the bike. I am going back perhaps 15 years or more.




Your left wing bias shows. Here are the facts;



> IN THE midst of the worst economic downturn and the highest unemployment for 60 years, Australians have been preoccupied by one issue: the drama over Leo McLeay, Speaker of the Parliament, falling off a bicycle.
> The uproar was not so much over the fall, as how he was quietly awarded compensation of Adollars 65,000 ( pounds 28,000) by the government.
> 
> Mr McLeay is an MP with the ruling Labor Party and a long-time colleague of Paul Keating, the Prime Minister. The affair might normally have gone unnoticed, but with a general election looming it has shot into headlines and threatens to rock Mr Keating's campaign strategy.




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/canberra-speaker-skids-into-scandal-1470753.html


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> Your left wing bias shows. Here are the facts;




Don't confuse bias with a bad memory. I am surprised that anyone would categorise me as left wing based on my posts on ASF.


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> That's a very interesting post and though I would regard myself as centrist, but leaning a bit to the conservative side, I would't agree with every item.



No, neither would I.  I posted it as being broadly representative of the difference between the Labor nanny state and the Conservative philosophy of encouraging individuals to take responsibility for their own outcomes.  I think it largely does this.



> John Howard outlawed most guns



I think here we need to recognise the difference between a fundamental philosophy and a political reaction.  There was so much public outrage about the Port Arthur massacre, the government simply had to be seen to do something.  Hence the gun buy back.

I doubt very much that - without the Port Arthur thing - any such policy would have been instituted.



> Weren't some of the most vocal homophobes in America outed as being closet homosexuals. For example - evangelical pastor Ted Haggard. Except he wanted homosexuality outlawed, not legalised.



Don't know about anything in America.
The current debate about e.g. gay marriage here imo lends credibility to what the posted piece said on homosexuals.



> I can't remember the guys name, but wasn't it a Liberal MP or Senator that sued some bicycle rental shop in Canberra after he fell off a rental bike near parliament and received some minor injuries, even though the store owner had warned him that he was too heavy for the bike. I am going back perhaps 15 years or more.



Since clarified.  (I was surprised at the accusation of your having a left bias, bellenuit.  Have always found most of your observations to be intelligently centrist.)


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Since clarified.  (I was surprised at the accusation of your having a left bias, bellenuit.  Have always found most of your observations to be intelligently centrist.)




Would she have made an a false accusation against a Labor member, and then blamed the mistake on bad memory? I don't think so. It took me less than a minute to research the facts. Hardly "intelligently centrist"


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> Would she have made an a false accusation against a Labor member, and then blamed the mistake on bad memory? I don't think so. It took me less than a minute to research the facts. Hardly "intelligently centrist"




Gee, Calliope, chill out. It wasn't an issue of such great import that warranted research. It was just a mistake and phrased to indicate I wasn't fully sure.

_I can't remember the guys name, but wasn't it a Liberal MP or Senator that sued some bicycle rental shop in Canberra after he fell off a rental bike near parliament and received some minor injuries, even though the store owner had warned him that he was too heavy for the bike. I am going back perhaps 15 years or more._

If you are talking about research, wouldn't it have been more appropriate for you to research my previous posts before categorising me as having a leftist bias, rather than basing it on one error in one post.


----------



## noco

If Gillard does do a reshuffle of cabinet, it will be interesting to see if Kevin11 stays foreign minister!

She might punish him for leaking and send him to the back bench. If that is the case GG might be right. Kevin may resign. 



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/a_reshuflle/


----------



## Calliope

bellenuit said:


> Gee, Calliope, chill out. It wasn't an issue of such great import that warranted research. It was just a mistake and phrased to indicate I wasn't fully sure.




Don't you think it would have been smarter to do a little research on an issue you weren't sure about rather than make a nonsense accusation. Or perhaps you were just following your instincts to rebut any criticism of the left, which was what your post was all about.


----------



## wayneL

Perhaps Calliope is showing his right wing bias by making such a big deal about it.


----------



## todster

wayneL said:


> Perhaps Calliope is showing his right wing bias by making such a big deal about it.




Right wing bias is accepted,encouraged and rampant with the ASF silver set.


----------



## Calliope

wayneL said:


> Perhaps Calliope is showing his right wing bias by making such a big deal about it.




Perhaps.:dunno: But  I also have a bias against spreading mis-information when the facts are so easily ascertained. If pointing this out is considered a big deal then so be it.


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> If Gillard does do a reshuffle of cabinet, it will be interesting to see if Kevin11 stays foreign minister!
> She might punish him for leaking and send him to the back bench. If that is the case GG might be right. Kevin may resign. http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/a_reshuflle/



Perhaps they'll put Andrew Wilkie on Ignore. Love to see them call Rudd's bluff and reshuffle him out of Foreign Affairs, but unlikely.


----------



## sptrawler

It's all good and well for labor to be getting on Kevs case. 
However, from polls he is one of the only ones that will keep his seat at the next election.
You never know, he may become leader of the labor party again, due to him being the only one left standing. LOL, LOL, LOL
Many a true word has been spoken in jest. 
I tend to think labor will be smashed, the public has made up its mind, they have just moved on and aren't listening. They have battened down the hatches, made a mental survival plan and will just weather the storm till the next election.
Records will be rewritten in the next election, IMO.
The best thing Gillard could have done was call an election, after forming the minority government became a sticky mess.
Instead pandering to Bob and the Independents has just turned everything pear shaped for labor.


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> Right wing bias is accepted,encouraged and rampant with the ASF silver set.




Yeh, well you you get that when all the losers get together to form government. LOL

We are all trying to ensure there is a place for you to move into after your working career ends.
Actually if these goons stay in office, your working career won't end. LOL LOL cough LOL 
Just love your passion, keep it up, look forward to your posts in 20years.


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Yeh, well you you get that when all the losers get together to form government. LOL
> 
> We are all trying to ensure there is a place for you to move into after your working career ends.
> Actually if these goons stay in office, your working career won't end. LOL LOL cough LOL
> Just love your passion, keep it up, look forward to your posts in 20years.




You should see someone about that cough


----------



## sptrawler

I keep dislodging my false teeth, when a young bloke cracks me up


----------



## sptrawler

Actually to extrapolate on that todster, they are having riots in U.K and Europe, because they are trying to lift the pension age to 67.
These goons have brought it in for your age group, without a murmur. 
Not only that, they have reduced what you can put in super, to make sure you can't get out early.
Thats from the worlds greatest treasurer and the worlds strongest economy, with the worlds most apathetic population with the worlds smallest gonads. LOL LOL cough LOL.
There go my teeth again.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> The best thing Gillard could have done was call an election, after forming the minority government became a sticky mess.
> Instead pandering to Bob and the Independents has just turned everything pear shaped for labor.



Yes, I agree.  Then she would have had some legitimacy and authority instead of widely being seen as the puppet of the Greens.



todster said:


> You should see someone about that cough



 Pretty funny, todster.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Yes, I agree.  Then she would have had some legitimacy and authority instead of widely being seen as the puppet of the Greens.
> 
> 
> Pretty funny, todster.




Actually Julia, I think a lot of labor voters will just cut out the middle man(labor) at the next election and vote greens instead. 
Also from the way Bob distanced himself from the pay rise, saying the greens didn't agree with it. I would say Bob is hoping to pick up a lot of the swing from labor.
Agree with you also re todster, he's a hoot. Good to see posters that can give and take with humour, adds a lot to dull subjects.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Actually Julia, I think a lot of labor voters will just cut out the middle man(labor) at the next election and vote greens instead.
> Also from the way Bob distanced himself from the pay rise, saying the greens didn't agree with it. I would say Bob is hoping to pick up a lot of the swing from labor.
> Agree with you also re todster, he's a hoot. Good to see posters that can give and take with humour, adds a lot to dull subjects.




I agree.
I do not think the average voter understands Bob Brown.
Bob want's to continue to pick at the policy's of both parties to enhance his own standing at the next election. As he weakens them, he strengthens his own power base. After all he has no where near as much work to do as the two major parties.

He will be happy with control of both houses. He will be working to continue  that control.

There is no doubt he has a  "seat" figure he is pushing for in the next  Federal election.
The greens will be quietly going about their work in the seats where the opportunity for them will be to increase their numbers. 
Eventually some of the voters may wake up!!!
Qld state election may provide some of the answers, as a guide to the next Federal one.
joea


----------



## sptrawler

Well this is a turn up, Bob and Julia thought the Australian was the problem.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/police-search-the-age-offices-20111215-1ovmu.html

I guess everyone dislikes them, just some disguise it better. 
Not to worry, here's 30% to make you feel better.LOL


----------



## Calliope

Poor Rudolph. Will he ever take the lead again? Ho Ho Ho.


----------



## sptrawler

Well the goon show has really done it for the farmers. The Indonesians are only going to take half the number of the cattle next year.
Another fine mess from the worlds worst government. IMO 

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/a...plans-to-cut-beef-imports-20111216-1ox74.html

Yes the government really taught the Indonesians a lesson there.LOL
Shame we can't give the farmers a 30% pay rise to cover their losses.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Well the goon show has really done it for the farmers. The Indonesians are only going to take half the number of the cattle next year.




I am wondering if some of the countries that  trade with Australia, adjust policy's because they see the Gillard as a dumb government.? ( or for that matter, coalition as well)
I would have thought that when the decision to stop the live cattle trade was made, other nations may have jumped at the opportunity to get a leg in the door.
joea


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> I am wondering if some of the countries that  trade with Australia, adjust policy's because they see the Gillard as a dumb government.? ( or for that matter, coalition as well)
> I would have thought that when the decision to stop the live cattle trade was made, other nations may have jumped at the opportunity to get a leg in the door.
> joea



 Just as they presumably will with respect to our disadvantage via the carbon tax.


----------



## sptrawler

I love the news coverage of Indonesia meat import quota. The news is saying it is a shock.
I am sure the Indonesian government said they would source alternative suppliers, when the government jumped in feet first.
Actually I am sure the newspaper report stating this is in one of our posts.
But as per usual Julia says it wasn't us, get stuffed, pi$$ off and get over it. Nasty, very nasty is how I would categorise her.


----------



## noco

How much longer do we have to put up with this nonsense between Gillard and Rudd?

While all this back biting is going on these two idiots and their cronnies keep trying to convince the public they are united. The Labor Party must think the average 'joe blow' is as  stupid as they are.

I say put them both in the ring and fight it out now. There is certainly no room for both Gillard and Rudd to be in government together. One or the other must go and who ever comes out on top will bring about a resignation of the loser.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ng-julia-gillard/story-e6freooo-1226223475530


----------



## dutchie

noco said:


> I say put them both in the ring and fight it out now.




I say put them both out to pasture.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Actually I am sure the newspaper report stating this is in one of our posts.
> But as per usual Julia says it wasn't us, get stuffed, pi$$ off and get over it. Nasty, very nasty is how I would categorise her.




sp
You have just described the real, "real", REAL, Julia.
And the Australian people have to continue to put up with her.
Cause she ain't going anywhere soon.!!

Personally I have a lot of time for Bill Shorten. Hopefully he can help improve the situation. I have never forgotten his role in the Tasmanian mine disaster.
joea


----------



## noco

How is it possible to a Prime Minister who is:-

Smart
Stupid
Clever
Cunning
Ruthless
A fool
Untrustworthy
Incompetent
Poor judgement
And above all a perpetual liar.

All rolled up in one and we may have to put up with her for another 2 years.


----------



## Calliope

joea said:


> I have never forgotten his role in the Tasmanian mine disaster.
> joea




Yes, it was carefully orchestrated, by a man with an eye on a seat in parliament. He captured the spotlight, and played it for all it was worth. And it worked. He is a very cunning cookie.

On getting elected, Shorten's first priority was to get rid of his old wife, and marry into the vice-regal family. All his moves are carefully planned.


----------



## noco

Holy hell, the plot thickens. Now we have young Billy looking at the Green/Labor party leadership plan "C". What was plan"B"?

What has happened to Stephen Smith's propects mentioned in despatches only last week? Was Smithy plan "B"?

History is being repeated yet again with the Labor Party whether State or Federal when they have repeated failures, they change leaders in hope of a popularity lift in the polls. Same old Labor; same old economic failures and same old dumb policies.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...as-labors-plan-b/story-e6freooo-1226224910274


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Holy hell, the plot thickens. Now we have young Billy looking at the Green/Labor party leadership plan "C". What was plan"B"?
> 
> What has happened to Stephen Smith's propects mentioned in despatches only last week? Was Smithy plan "B"?
> 
> History is being repeated yet again with the Labor Party whether State or Federal when they have repeated failures, they change leaders in hope of a popularity lift in the polls. Same old Labor; same old economic failures and same old dumb policies.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...as-labors-plan-b/story-e6freooo-1226224910274




What has happened to Stephen Smith's prospects mentioned in despatches only last week? Was Smithy plan "B"?

History is being repeated yet again with the Labor Party whether State or Federal when they have repeated failures, they change leaders in hope of a popularity lift in the polls. Same old Labor; same old economic failures and same old dumb policies.

Well noco, obviously the plot does thicken, all of a sudden Stephen Smith gets a broadside. Someone nearest and dearest to him, has leaked the fact he uses planes like we use toilet paper.
This is getting nastier and nastier, I can guess who will win in the nasty stakes.
The moral compass is spinning like a top, hells bells there's a 30% pay rise in this, get out of my way you $#it heads.IMO


----------



## drsmith

It never takes long for Gillard Labor to get back to normal transmissions.


----------



## So_Cynical

So_Cynical said:


> The 97 pages of Labor bashing and Liberal whining on this thread is really a bit much...come on kids.
> 
> ---------------
> 
> The Gillard Government is doing a great job.
> 
> The Budget will will be in surplus next year, Aust has a AAA rating from all 3 major rating agency's (first time ever :dunno) Swanny is International Treasurer of the year, interest rates falling, inflation low and stable, house prices softish but stable, employment high, dollar high, environmental and socially responsible legislative change.
> 
> What more could anyone ask of a federal Government.




Now 104 pages and still doing a great job.


----------



## drsmith

So_Cynical said:


> Now 104 pages and still doing a great job.



For whom ?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/200m-program-to-prevent-diabetes-axed-20111218-1p0u0.html


----------



## Eager

So_Cynical said:


> Now 104 pages and still doing a great job.



 Yes, the whine industry has never been stronger...


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> Yes, the whine industry has never been stronger...



The strength of the whine industry, as you put it, is what votes governments out of office.


----------



## dutchie

Eager said:


> Yes, the whine industry has never been stronger...




The whine industry is one of the most expanding industries in Australia - that's because there is a lot to whine about!


----------



## Eager

drsmith said:


> The strength of the whine industry, as you put it, is what votes governments out of office.



And that's fine! You lot will get your chance at the next election, and to be honest if the coalition reign for as long as they did last time, so be it - you won't see me becoming all antsy and being 100% critical of the government of the day like some members here do!

Actually, that could be interesting. If those that are 100% critical of the present government no matter what, post with the same vigour espousing 100% perfection of a future coalition government, they had better be prepared to cop a lot of crap when things go wrong!


----------



## wayneL

Eager said:


> And that's fine! You lot will get your chance at the next election, and to be honest if the coalition reign for as long as they did last time, so be it - you won't see me becoming all antsy and being 100% critical of the government of the day like some members here do!
> 
> Actually, that could be interesting. If those that are 100% critical of the present government no matter what, post with the same vigour espousing 100% perfection of a future coalition government, they had better be prepared to cop a lot of crap when things go wrong!




Some of the last coalition's most strident critics on this forum were coalition supporters... eg ME.

This is the difference between socialists and non-socialists; non-socialists have the ability to be objective, socialists no ability to be objective at all.

I have proven this via my PhD thesis, which is in peer review right at this moment. :


----------



## Eager

wayneL said:


> Some of the last coalition's most strident critics on this forum were coalition supporters... eg ME.
> 
> This is the difference between socialists and non-socialists; non-socialists have the ability to be objective, socialists no ability to be objective at all.
> 
> I have proven this via my PhD thesis, which is in peer review right at this moment. :



I mustn't be a socialist then!

Federally I voted for the coalition in '98 and '01 but I haven't liked various policies of theirs since. At a state level I have swung fairly evenly since about that time. I don't expect any medals for that, but I can think objectively thank you. Compare this to those who vote for the coalition no matter what - and many people here give me that impression - where is their objectivity? 

Maybe they are 'Liberal socialists.'


----------



## So_Cynical

drsmith said:


> The strength of the whine industry, as you put it, is what votes governments out of office.




Certainly worked that way for Johnny and Costello.


----------



## wayneL

Eager said:


> Maybe they are 'Liberal socialists.'




They do exist. eg Malcolm Turnbull


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> They do exist. eg Malcolm Turnbull




You mean "Liberal Socialite".

Turnbull (former Goldman Sachs banker) with  a net worth of $186 million (BRW 2010), is hardly a socialist.


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> And that's fine! You lot will get your chance at the next election, and to be honest if the coalition reign for as long as they did last time, so be it - you won't see me becoming all antsy and being 100% critical of the government of the day like some members here do!
> 
> Actually, that could be interesting. If those that are 100% critical of the present government no matter what, post with the same vigour espousing 100% perfection of a future coalition government, they had better be prepared to cop a lot of crap when things go wrong!



Eager, there are a few members on both sides who are so rusted on in their support of either Left or Right that absolutely nothing would change their allegiance.

But I think there are way more people, on this forum and in the general population, that have the capacity for objectivity and who are genuine swinging voters.

I strongly suspect that most of the electorate right now just feels depressed and without hope of good leadership.
The government seems overall to be entirely self-serving, particularly Julia Gillard in her determination to hold on to her position, and the opposition is determined to oppose for the sake of it with the meagre exception of Afghanistan where imo both sides are wrong and out of step with what the electorate wants.

I cannot recall  a time in politics where the landscape has been so desolate.
And there seems not to even be anyone on the horizon in either party to lift us from this all time low.


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> You mean "Liberal Socialite".
> 
> Turnbull (former Goldman Sachs banker) with  a net worth of $186 million (BRW 2010), is hardly a socialist.




Well that's the thing with socialists. Socialism is for the plebs, while the "leadership" lives high on the hog.

That's how it has always worked comrade.


----------



## noco

This letter written by Jenny Bell is well worth a read and while it is directed to both Gillard and Abbott, I would judge 90% of her letter is aimed at Juliar Gillard.


http://www.wernercairns.com/2011/09/open-letter-to-gillard-abbott-from.html


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> And that's fine! You lot will get your chance at the next election, and to be honest if the coalition reign for as long as they did last time, so be it - you won't see me becoming all antsy and being 100% critical of the government of the day like some members here do!
> 
> Actually, that could be interesting. If those that are 100% critical of the present government no matter what, post with the same vigour espousing 100% perfection of a future coalition government, they had better be prepared to cop a lot of crap when things go wrong!







So_Cynical said:


> Certainly worked that way for Johnny and Costello.



I'm not 100% critical of this government.

It's done a fantastic job in reaching its used-by date in a lot less time than its predecessors.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> And that's fine! You lot will get your chance at the next election, and to be honest if the coalition reign for as long as they did last time, so be it - you won't see me becoming all antsy and being 100% critical of the government of the day like some members here do!
> 
> Actually, that could be interesting. If those that are 100% critical of the present government no matter what, post with the same vigour espousing 100% perfection of a future coalition government, they had better be prepared to cop a lot of crap when things go wrong!




Well my memories of governments are:
Whitlam, I voted for him , thought he did a great job. Caused a lot of inflation but wages took off as well so it was great. Also brought in single mothers payments, so women no longer had to live in a relationship, where they copped a thick ear on payday.  I was only a kid then and was swayed by the media to vote him out.
Fraser, nasty piece of work, only thing I can recall was wage freezes without price freezes.
Hawke, voted for him, we all thought he was going to be the saviour, pull the whole country together. 
Well the election promise of getting rid of the fuel excise which he said was a tax on workers driving to work, went out the window straight away. Then there was the wages accord that never quite gave wage earners the promised cost of living increases they promised.
Then the 87 crash and a realisation that Australian banks and industry were too dependent on overseas money. So the superannuation guarantee was introduced, it should have been for the workers benefit not for the institutions. Hawke and Keating lost the plot ended up playing the workers.
Howard, you had to vote for him, jeez what a trojan he had been around for years, earned the nickname 'honest John' for always owning up when he stuffed up.
I don't think anyone expected him to be such a terrific leader, never shot from the hip, never had the get stuffed I'm the boss attitude and always put Australia first.
Now to the present, I've never been in a situation before where the government is chaotic and the opposition don't offer much of an alternative.
I just think the irrational policy being perpetrated on us has to be flipped the bird.
Well that's my christmas rant.LOL


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Now to the present, I've never been in a situation before where the government is chaotic and the opposition don't offer much of an alternative.
> LOL




sp
I think you have covered it pretty well!!
What I cannot understand is "the opposition don't offer much of an alternative".

In 2007 Rudd got into power without one policy, Gillard was the same. It was all "promises" not policy. Sky news announced at 5.30am on the day of the election, "that it looks like Labor will get in without a single policy".
I might add that they never mentioned that line of news once during the campaign.

Numerous times on this forum it has been mentioned that the Coalition have no policy.
Well as far as I know their policy's are a continuation  of Howard's(that worked), and in the campaign of the next election, they will release the amendments to those policy's that are applicable.
The reason Abbott is doing this, is Gillard will pinch any policy's she likes from the coalition, implement them, then campaign on the fact she has implemented them so why put the Coalition in over her.

I think its time people start to look at the "team" and not the leader.
The current situation is, Labor has "degenerated" politics in Australia to polls and not policy. They are in a state of chaos because they are not a team.

Finally "there is a saying that you can choose your friends but not your relations".
In politics you can only vote for who is available. If Abbott's persona is the problem then we may have to wait until the campaign to see who leads the opposition.
The alternative I am voting for, is the team who will prevent Australia being added to the PIGS collection of countries.
ANY government cannot give the "taxpayer" one dollar that the taxpayers themselves do not supply. What we have to vote for, is the team that spends the taxpayers money wisely.!!!!!!!!

And on a lighter note, I may have to help  Katter campaign, as its not "seekers" that are taking over the country. "its bloody flying foxes". 
joea


----------



## todster

drsmith said:


> I'm not 100% critical of this government.
> 
> It's done a fantastic job in reaching its used-by date in a lot less time than its predecessors.




Arthur Fadden?


----------



## Eager

*Doc S*: I wasn't having a go at you, or anyone in particular, personally. I particularly like *Julia*'s analogy that there are some people that are 'rusted' and that is the impression that I have so far formed of the greater membership here (they must be socialists according to *Wayne*'s definition), but I will learn who is who as I go along. 

*sptrawler*, I was too young to vote for Whitlam. His greatest achievements IMO were the ending of conscription, the introduction of Medibank and attempting to put this country on the world stage by creating trade links with China (which the coalition opposed). What a legacy that turned out to be!!!! In the early 70's it _was_ time, and he was decades ahead of the fogey that he defeated. The Hawke era saw the floating of the dollar, another very important aspect to Australia being part of the real world, IMO in stark contrast to the insular attitudes of the preceding regime. Howard was in the right place at the right time, steering a ship through smooth waters. 

*joea*, Rudd got in because the people got tired of Howard. Although his term was only half that of the Libs before Whitlam, 11 years is a helluva long time in politics. Problems like the 'children overboard' issue and Workchoices hurt him too, regardless how valid anyone now thinks those arguments were.


----------



## wayneL

Eager said:


> (they must be socialists according to *Wayne*'s definition),




Point of order!

That's a massively liberal interpretation of what I said.

Socialists are authoritarian collectivists.

They are tribalists, but not all tribalists are socialists.

Do you see your logical fallacy?


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> Socialists are authoritarian collectivists.




A very narrow view based on the extreme examples only.  Which in fact were totalitarian communist.

There are some very credible socialist governments in Scandinavia and some other North European countries.

A real socialist seeks cooperation, inclusion and equality.


----------



## Eager

wayneL said:


> Point of order!
> 
> That's a massively liberal interpretation of what I said.
> 
> Socialists are authoritarian collectivists.
> 
> They are tribalists, but not all tribalists are socialists.
> 
> Do you see your logical fallacy?




Did you NOT see the  ?


----------



## wayneL

explod said:


> A very narrow view based on the extreme examples only.  Which in fact were totalitarian communist.




No. Many administrations would be more authoritarian if they felt they could get away with it and in fact try to creep it up on the populace. There is no better example than the Blair/Brown so called "new labour" ruse. 3000 new criminal statutes later, ordinary Brits have been criminalized like never before.



> There are some very credible socialist governments in Scandinavia and some other North European countries.




Must I point out for the 534,783,097,987th time that these are not purely socialist economies; rather, they are mixed economies heavily reliant on the capitalist sector of the economy to support their welfare largesse? 



> A real socialist seeks cooperation, inclusion and equality.




That's the rhetoric, but not the reality.


----------



## wayneL

Eager said:


> Did you NOT see the  ?




Yes.

But still a point of order.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

wayneL said:


> Point of order!
> 
> That's a massively liberal interpretation of what I said.
> 
> Socialists are authoritarian collectivists.
> 
> They are tribalists, but not all tribalists are socialists.
> 
> Do you see your logical fallacy?






explod said:


> A very narrow view based on the extreme examples only.  Which in fact were totalitarian communist.
> 
> There are some very credible socialist governments in Scandinavia and some other North European countries.
> 
> A real socialist seeks cooperation, inclusion and equality.




Either way this mob of basket weavers in Canberra are muppets.

















The resemblance is uncanny.

gg


----------



## sptrawler

Thanks for that picture GG, I nearly brought up my dinner. Lucky I had a nice shiraz to keep it down. 
The basket weavers and muppets look quite intellegent though. Shame about the class of 75 union photo.LOL


----------



## joea

Thanks gg.
I printed out the photo of the MP's, clipped it to my dart board, walked back the appropriate distance, hesitated and threw the dart "for the next Labor leader, if Labor goes full term".

It clearly hit the smiling chap with the red tie behind Gillards right shoulder.

joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Thanks gg.
> I printed out the photo of the MP's, clipped it to my dart board, walked back the appropriate distance, hesitated and threw the dart "for the next Labor leader, if Labor goes full term".
> 
> It clearly hit the smiling chap with the red tie behind Gillards right shoulder.
> 
> joea




Was Kevin  Rudd the invisible man in that photo?


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Was Kevin  Rudd the invisible man in that photo?




No.
I just think industrial relation is  going to be the focus point prior to the next election.
Somebody is going to have to fix a lot of stuff ups.
joea


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> No.
> I just think industrial relation is  going to be the focus point prior to the next election.
> Somebody is going to have to fix a lot of stuff ups.
> joea




Yes, maybe Tony Sheldon can take Julia out to dinner and explain that the world doesn't rotate around the same industrial axis it did 20 years ago.
I doubt she would listen.


----------



## sptrawler

Quite funny at the moment, the asylum seeker issue is just highlighting Bob is running the country.
Julia is the prime minister who can get through any legislation the greens want.
So it's a minority government that is operating for the minority partner.LOL, LOL


----------



## joea

Hi.
Golly Gosh!!!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...bt-keeps-growing/story-fn9l8bny-1226228847793
joea


----------



## Logique

It's all mumbo jumbo, I know.

http://www.astrology-reading.com.au/Australia_Horoscope_Predictions_Rectification.html
Astrology Predictions for Australia 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012

"Australia is in danger of finding itself overwhelmed by a massive immigration flood, including thousands of boat-people. This also suggests serious financial times for Australia, possibly a credit squeeze or a very serious recession and unemployment becoming a serious problem. Property prices (Saturn) could crash." 

"Yet another Australian Prime Minister will fall from power between mid-2011 and late 2012." 

"If Gillard somehow survives 2011 as prime minister, she will not survive January-mid March 2012. During this whole time, transiting Saturn will be very closely conjunct (0 degrees) to her Mars. This very same combination ended Kevin Rudd's prime ministership! All Gillard's intentions will be met with restistance, where events will occur beyond her personal control. She will be brought to her knees, as Rudd was." 

"PM Julia Gillard’s horoscope has some telling astrological aspects, in particular her ruthless eradication of rivals."


----------



## noco

How desperate is our Prime Minister wanting to stay in power.

$14.95 billion ($650 PER HEAD OF TAX PAYER FUNDS) to keep the Greens and the Independants happy and most of it wasted on the loonie Greens.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-labor-in-power/story-e6freooo-1226231441380


----------



## startrader

Logique said:


> It's all mumbo jumbo, I know.
> 
> http://www.astrology-reading.com.au/Australia_Horoscope_Predictions_Rectification.html
> Astrology Predictions for Australia 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
> 
> "Australia is in danger of finding itself overwhelmed by a massive immigration flood, including thousands of boat-people. This also suggests serious financial times for Australia, possibly a credit squeeze or a very serious recession and unemployment becoming a serious problem. Property prices (Saturn) could crash."
> 
> "Yet another Australian Prime Minister will fall from power between mid-2011 and late 2012."
> 
> "If Gillard somehow survives 2011 as prime minister, she will not survive January-mid March 2012. During this whole time, transiting Saturn will be very closely conjunct (0 degrees) to her Mars. This very same combination ended Kevin Rudd's prime ministership! All Gillard's intentions will be met with restistance, where events will occur beyond her personal control. She will be brought to her knees, as Rudd was."
> 
> "PM Julia Gillard’s horoscope has some telling astrological aspects, in particular her ruthless eradication of rivals."




Thanks for that Logique - very interesting predicitions!  I wouldn't be surprised if this fellow is right about Gillard being forced to resign before March 2012.  He also says that some scandal may well bring down the government.  So hope he is right about that!


----------



## sptrawler

Well Christine Milne has demanded the government investigate Arc Mining and Martin Ferguson has told her to sod off.
Might be the first of many examples of labor trying to show some 'balls' with the greens.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/new...-explanation-over-mine-shootings/2404720.aspx

Bob won't be happy, labor not doing as they are told.


----------



## sptrawler

I think 'the chickens will come home to roost' in 2012.
Gross incompetence in the first term of office, pandering to minor parties in the second term, is going to be reflected in cost of living rises in 2012.
Even if China keeps 'pumping' , the loss of confidence in the electorate is causing huge problems.
The penny will drop with workers that the harder they push the more they lose. Salary sacrifice has been dropped to non existent, pension age increased, marginal tax rates increased(with the carbon tax).
The economy will stall IMO.
I don't think there has been a time in the last 40 years, where the economy has been on such a knife edge. The crazy part is, it is self inflicted.
Remove the incentive to push hard and everyone backs off. 
Like has been posted before on numerous occasions, labor strip out incentive, well labor and the greens will do it in half the time.LOL
The one thing for sure is workers in their 40's really need to sit down and have a think where it is all going. IMO


----------



## ChrisJH

What cost of living rises? And how much? I just bought a new 3D led TV... times are tough.


----------



## sptrawler

ChrisJH said:


> What cost of living rises? And how much? I just bought a new 3D led TV... times are tough.




Yes I have a son, same attitude, he's only 24 years younger than me. I can't understand him either.LOL


----------



## sptrawler

ChrisJH said:


> What cost of living rises? And how much? I just bought a new 3D led TV... times are tough.




Actually probably works in well with the government idea, work till you drop, enjoy.


----------



## Eager

sptrawler said:


> I think 'the chickens will come home to roost' in 2012.
> Gross incompetence in the first term of office, pandering to minor parties in the second term, is going to be reflected in cost of living rises in 2012.
> Even if China keeps 'pumping' , the loss of confidence in the electorate is causing huge problems.
> The penny will drop with workers that the harder they push the more they lose. Salary sacrifice has been dropped to non existent, pension age increased, marginal tax rates increased(with the carbon tax).
> The economy will stall IMO.
> I don't think there has been a time in the last 40 years, where the economy has been on such a knife edge. The crazy part is, it is self inflicted.
> Remove the incentive to push hard and everyone backs off.
> Like has been posted before on numerous occasions, labor strip out incentive, well labor and the greens will do it in half the time.LOL
> The one thing for sure is workers in their 40's really need to sit down and have a think where it is all going. IMO



"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan. 

IMO, there is greater chance of the chickens coming home to roost if conservative voters continue to talk down the economy and instil fear. Maybe they should be tried for treason.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> IMO, there is greater chance of the chickens coming home to roost if conservative voters continue to talk down the economy and instil fear. Maybe they should be tried for treason.




Yes we should be tried for treason straight after the government. 
The government that wasn't voted in by the majority, therefore don't have a mandate.
Which implements policies they categorically said they wouldn't.
I'll stop bagging the government when it is elected fair and square.
Believe it or not it is not the conservatives talking down the economy, it is a general lack of faith in the governments ability that is causing consumer concern.


----------



## joea

Hi.
Well I have been trying to work out  how Labor is compiling its policy's and, it's some what crazy logic.

I honestly believe they are following the script of "Yes Minister".

Its the only solution I can come up with.
joea


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Yes we should be tried for treason straight after the government.
> The government that wasn't voted in by the majority, therefore don't have a mandate.
> Which implements policies they categorically said they wouldn't.
> I'll stop bagging the government when it is elected fair and square.
> Believe it or not it is not the conservatives talking down the economy, it is a general lack of faith in the governments ability that is causing consumer concern.



+1. 
 Eager, whilst I appreciate the devotion of your political bias, you do your own intelligence a disservice if you do not appreciate the woeful incompetence of this government.
Just as one example, consider the essentially unanimous view of the business community that they have no confidence in the government.

It's hardly surprising when you consider that few, if any, government politicians have any experience in business.  They are mostly Labor apparatchiks, often lawyers by training or just as commonly, union heavyweights.

The electorate is not stupid.  Tony Abbott would not be able to "talk down" a flourishing economy:  the public wouldn't stand for it.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Yes we should be tried for treason straight after the government.
> The government that wasn't voted in by the majority, therefore don't have a mandate.
> Which implements policies they categorically said they wouldn't.
> I'll stop bagging the government when it is elected fair and square.
> Believe it or not it is not the conservatives talking down the economy, it is a general lack of faith in the governments ability that is causing consumer concern.




Yes and I agree whole heartedly with what you say. This is by far the worst government I have seen in 60 years. Unfortuneately we may have to suffer their incompetence for a lot longer yet unless of course some major scandal brings them unstuck.


----------



## Logique

Eager said:


> "We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan.
> IMO, there is greater chance of the chickens coming home to roost if conservative voters continue to talk down the economy and instil fear. Maybe they should be tried for treason.



Eager, Labor/Greens wouldn't talk anything down or instil fear would they. Such as the climate.


----------



## Eager

sptrawler said:


> The government that wasn't voted in by the majority, therefore don't have a mandate.



That is a silly statement. It is blatantly obvious that NEITHER side had a clear electoral mandate. Yes, it is questionable whether the gov't now have a _legitimate_ mandate or not because of the carbon tax lie, but that is a different issue, and not what you were alluding to! I think you have confused the two.

Are you advocating a 2 party, first-past-the-post voting system? If you are, you'd then probably still want a gerrymander system when things don't go your way. 

Current policies notwithstanding, I think your problem is with the independants who gave power to the gov't in the first place. *Maybe the real problem is with Abbott who couldn't woo them because of his party's political emptiness, which is the same reason that the MAJORITY of Australians did NOT vote for the coalition.* Maybe you'd like to see the banning of independants except if they side with the coalition? That's not very democratic though is it. 

Special instructions for those that hate democracy when it doesn't go their way:
(1) Go to Bunnings,
(2) Buy some timber,
(3) Build a friggin' bridge fergawsake!!!!


----------



## So_Cynical

Julia said:


> Tony Abbott would not be able to "talk down" a flourishing economy:  the public wouldn't stand for it.




Julia perhaps you could enlighten us all by pointing out something that Tony isn't talking down?


----------



## Calliope

So_Cynical said:


> Julia perhaps you could enlighten us all by pointing out something that Tony isn't talking down?




Freedom of speech?


----------



## Julia

So_Cynical said:


> Julia perhaps you could enlighten us all by pointing out something that Tony isn't talking down?



 My comment was in response to Eager's about the economy.  The Coalition believe, correctly imo, that this government wasted huge amounts of money.  They have said so, as they are quite entitled to do.  That is not 'talking down the economy'.

As far as other policies are concerned, if they simply disagree with the government's actions why on earth would you not expect them to say so?

Not the Coalition's fault that this government is constantly making policy on the run in order to keep the Greens and the Independents happy.   They have no obligation whatsoever to go along with policies with which they disagree.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> That is a silly statement. It is blatantly obvious that NEITHER side had a clear electoral mandate. Yes, it is questionable whether the gov't now have a _legitimate_ mandate or not because of the carbon tax lie, but that is a different issue, and not what you were alluding to! I think you have confused the two.
> 
> Are you advocating a 2 party, first-past-the-post voting system? If you are, you'd then probably still want a gerrymander system when things don't go your way.
> 
> Current policies notwithstanding, I think your problem is with the independants who gave power to the gov't in the first place. *Maybe the real problem is with Abbott who couldn't woo them because of his party's political emptiness, which is the same reason that the MAJORITY of Australians did NOT vote for the coalition.* Maybe you'd like to see the banning of independants except if they side with the coalition? That's not very democratic though is it.
> 
> Special instructions for those that hate democracy when it doesn't go their way:
> (1) Go to Bunnings,
> (2) Buy some timber,
> (3) Build a friggin' bridge fergawsake!!!!




I would like to see the voters of Australia have a say when an onerous far reaching tax is to be implemented, that goes for whoever is in government.
I find it outragous, decietful and arrogant behaviour, the backlash will be interesting. 
Or maybe voters will say that's reasonable behaviour from their representatives.
Time will tell.
I would be just as annoyed if the Coalition behaved in the same manner. It would be a similar situation if the G.S.T had been introduced post election.  
Also my problem isn't with the independents, other than the fact they have a dispropotionate say in the running of the country. As has been displayed with their lack of support for Labor policy but willingness to support Green policy.
This really is disfunctional and highlights the fundamental flaw in minority government regardless of which parties constitute it.
As for building a bridge, I don't think that will be necassary I think the electorate will be more decisive next time, whichever way it goes.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> My comment was in response to Eager's about the economy.  The Coalition believe, correctly imo, that this government wasted huge amounts of money.  They have said so, as they are quite entitled to do.  That is not 'talking down the economy'.
> 
> As far as other policies are concerned, if they simply disagree with the government's actions why on earth would you not expect them to say so?
> 
> Not the Coalition's fault that this government is constantly making policy on the run in order to keep the Greens and the Independents happy.   They have no obligation whatsoever to go along with policies with which they disagree.




Yes Julia, exactly.

Also, Abbott should not be criticized for not making his policies known before the next election, for knowing the government, they are likely to steal them and dish them up as there own.


----------



## So_Cynical

So_Cynical said:


> Julia perhaps you could enlighten us all by pointing out something that Tony isn't talking down?






Julia said:


> My comment was in response to Eager's about the economy.  The Coalition believe, correctly imo, that this government wasted huge amounts of money.  They have said so, as they are quite entitled to do.  That is not 'talking down the economy'.
> 
> As far as other policies are concerned, if they simply disagree with the government's actions why on earth would you not expect them to say so?
> 
> Not the Coalition's fault that this government is constantly making policy on the run in order to keep the Greens and the Independents happy.   They have no obligation whatsoever to go along with policies with which they disagree.




3 paragraphs to say...i cant give an example of anything Tony isn't talking down.

Thanks Julia.


----------



## dutchie

So_Cynical said:


> 3 paragraphs to say...i cant give an example of anything Tony isn't talking down.
> 
> Thanks Julia.




Your right SC, Julia can't give an example of something Tony is not talking down.

Thats how bad this government is.

Tony is probably trying hard to think of something good to say but this government just does not give him a chance.

That's the governments' fault  - not Tonys'


----------



## sptrawler

Further to what dutchie is saying, I have never heard a government so focused on the opposition.
If they were doing a good job, the results would speak for themselves.
How many times did you hear Howard say "it's Beazley causing the problems" or "it's Crean causing the problems" or indeed "it's Latham causing all the problems".
No it is only this inept government, that has to resort to blaming the opposition, for its own shortcomings as an ineffective government.
Boy are they overplaying the blame Tony, all it does is highlight they are struggling to find a winning policy, or indeed any policy.


----------



## noco

This inept government were put into power with a large carrot dangled in front of the Greens and the independants to form a minority government.

These non Labor stooges helped Gillard pass the mining tax and the carbon tax legislation without the help of the Libs. and because they won't assist Gillard with the off shore processing of Asylum seekers in Malayasia, Gillard blames Abbott. Not a word of criticism against the Greens who want on shore processing and at this stage have had their own way.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Further to what dutchie is saying, I have never heard a government so focused on the opposition.
> If they were doing a good job, the results would speak for themselves.
> How many times did you hear Howard say "it's Beazley causing the problems" or "it's Crean causing the problems" or indeed "it's Latham causing all the problems".
> No it is only this inept government, that has to resort to blaming the opposition, for its own shortcomings as an ineffective government.
> Boy are they overplaying the blame Tony, all it does is highlight they are struggling to find a winning policy, or indeed any policy.



Yep, well described, sp.   If the government were confident in themselves, and the polls supported this, they would have no need to seek a scapegoat.

Back to Eager's post earlier today and some reference to the Independents' giving government to Labor being an indication of democracy in action (paraphrasing here), that's all well and good in principle, but in actual fact, those Independents had an existing bad history with the Nationals and were determined on revenge.  Hence the Coalition never had a chance of being given government.
Almost entirely personal, almost entirely not democratic at all.


----------



## sptrawler

Actually lets put it really out there.
How you can be enarmoured by a government that parachutes high profile media personalities in to gain votes and remove people who have dedicated their careers to Australian, politics for very little monetary gain.
Then these same high profile representatives  that were parachuted in are either thrown out, disenfranchised or disenchanted in a short period of time. Just shows how shallow and self serving it has all become. In my opinion.


----------



## So_Cynical

dutchie said:


> Your right SC, Julia can't give an example of something Tony is not talking down.
> 
> Thats how bad this government is.
> 
> Tony is probably trying hard to think of something good to say but this government just does not give him a chance.
> 
> That's the governments' fault  - not Tonys'




And again all this from a Govt delivering.


Low inflation (3.5)
Solid GDP growth (2.5%)
Low unemployment (5.3%)
world finance minister of the year (OECD)
Balanced budget next year

http://www.rba.gov.au/
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/gdp-growth
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...romoney-magazine/story-fn59niix-1226142190437 

Has anyone else noticed this thread has many similarity's to the carbon tax and GHG threads? constant denials of reality by the ASF right, blame shifting, fanciful delusions.

The scientific evidence of good government is overwhelming and yet the denials continue...not one person has posted anything the conservative side of politics has said or done that is positive or upbeat and yet this is of little concern to the faithful.

Tony and his croneys think they can win by doing nothing, promising only to turn the clock back...i don't think this is gona fly  by the time the election comes around 1 vote Tony may fall more than 1 or 2 votes short.

Nothing is not a winning policy.


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> My comment was in response to Eager's about the economy.  The Coalition believe, correctly imo, that this government wasted huge amounts of money.  They have said so, as they are quite entitled to do.  That is not 'talking down the economy'.



I was referring more to the membership here, the likes of Bolt and McCrann who seem to have free licence to try and convince the people that the sky really is falling, and all those that go along for that particular ride.

Clearly, the sky is not falling.


----------



## joea

So_Cynical said:


> And again all this from a Govt delivering.
> 
> 
> Nothing is not a winning policy.




Your post is to the point.

However in the voters mind for the coming Queensland and Federal elections, are the people voting the opposition " IN " or voting the sitting government " OUT"?

I think at this point in time, they are voting the government out. Along with Windsor and Oakeshott.

The only safe ones are the Greens. And they will be busy trying to continue their control over the two houses.

It is not just Labor that Abbott has to be wary with his policy's, but more so the Greens. They control the Senate.
( for now.)

joea


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> Yep, well described, sp.   If the government were confident in themselves, and the polls supported this, they would have no need to seek a scapegoat.



Well, like it or not, Abbott IS a legitimate scapegoat for the current situation regarding asylum seekers. The Greens don't count here because they want onshore processing and the major parties are in broad agreeance about offshore processing, but Abbott is strutting around thinking that he is the PM and demanding that it is done his way! The situation would have been fixed by now if it wasn't for him.

BTW the gov't has been confident enough in themselves to pass more than 130 bills through Parliament thus far. Hardly ineffective or scapegoat seeking, methinks.

While on the subject of scapegoats, there is no shortage of relatively newly elected Liberal state premiers who are blamimg their Labor predecessors for everything either. Swings and roundabouts, swings and roundabouts...


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> Further to what dutchie is saying, I have never heard a government so focused on the opposition..



Pol Sci 101 textbooks will have chapters on this minority govt for years to come. Bizarrely, there seem to be two oppositions. The cause of everything bad, we keep being told, is the actual Opposition Leader, who doubtless remains nonplussed by his supposed influence over national affairs.

It is brand Independent that has been most tarnished, and can expect to be the big losers next time around.


----------



## Logique

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/future_gazed/
"..Asked on the ABC’s 7.30 if he plans to introduce workplace policies based on ancient Egypt’s slave labour model and compulsory inhalation of asbestos in kindergartens, federal opposition leader Tony Abbott answers: “No.” The Sydney Morning Herald condemns his 'relentless negativity'..".


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> Well, like it or not, Abbott IS a legitimate scapegoat for the current situation regarding asylum seekers. The Greens don't count here because they want onshore processing and the major parties are in broad agreeance about offshore processing




Rubbish. The Greens are Gillard's partners. They help keep her in power. If her bedmates won't support her policies she should disown them, and stop whining about Abbott. If she accepted Nauru it would be a real kick in the a*se for Brown, and a win win for your  "broad agreeance."


----------



## So_Cynical

joea said:


> Your post is to the point.
> 
> However in the voters mind for the coming Queensland and Federal elections, are the people voting the opposition " IN " or voting the sitting government " OUT"?
> 
> I think at this point in time, they are voting the government out. Along with Windsor and Oakeshott.
> 
> The only safe ones are the Greens. And they will be busy trying to continue their control over the two houses.
> 
> It is not just Labor that Abbott has to be wary with his policy's, but more so the Greens. They control the Senate.
> ( for now.)
> 
> joea




On a 2 party preferred vote with labor winning more of the centre than the coalition (like last election) Labor wins...i know that's not predicted at the moment, but im saying it will come to pass at the time.

Turnbull captures the centre vote, Tony doesn't...they both by default bring the right.


----------



## Julia

So_Cynical said:


> 3 paragraphs to say...i cant give an example of anything Tony isn't talking down.
> Thanks Julia.



Sigh.  Once more, you remind me of the futility of actually formulating a response to anything you ask/say.



So_Cynical said:


> And again all this from a Govt delivering.
> 
> 
> Low inflation (3.5)
> Solid GDP growth (2.5%)
> Low unemployment (5.3%)
> world finance minister of the year (OECD)
> Balanced budget next year



The government's brilliance seems singularly unrecognised by the electorate.



Eager said:


> Well, like it or not, Abbott IS a legitimate scapegoat for the current situation regarding asylum seekers. The Greens don't count here because they want onshore processing and the major parties are in broad agreeance about offshore processing, but Abbott is strutting around thinking that he is the PM and demanding that it is done his way! The situation would have been fixed by now if it wasn't for him.



Isn't this silliness becoming farcical by now?  The Coalition government had in place a policy that reduced boat arrivals to almost nothing.
Labor dismantled it and the results are there ever since.  A boat every couple of days now.
Anyone saying it's therefore Tony Abbott's fault is looking seriously out of touch imo.



> BTW the gov't has been confident enough in themselves to pass more than 130 bills through Parliament thus far.



Many of these with the support of the Opposition, giving lie to the assertion that the Opposition disagrees with everything on principle.



> While on the subject of scapegoats, there is no shortage of relatively newly elected Liberal state premiers who are blaming their Labor predecessors for everything either.



You wouldn't, of course, countenance the reality that the Labor predecessors actually did leave a mess behind them, would you?  Of course not.

There's a fundamental difference between the die hard Labor supporters and those of us who are so critical of the government:  Labor sycophants will never, ever acknowledge any fault in the policies or personalities of their chosen side.  Swinging voters and Coalition supporters, on the other hand, are prepared to see the reality of imperfections.




So_Cynical said:


> On a 2 party preferred vote with labor winning more of the centre than the coalition (like last election) Labor wins...i know that's not predicted at the moment, but im saying it will come to pass at the time.



What sort of money would you like to put on this?


----------



## So_Cynical

So_Cynical said:


> On a 2 party preferred vote with labor winning more of the centre than the coalition (like last election) Labor wins...i know that's not predicted at the moment, but im saying it will come to pass at the time.






Julia said:


> What sort of money would you like to put on this?




Current betting is almost 3 to 1 ~ $2.90 to be exact...care to better it?

http://www.iasbet.com/bet/politics/...Australian-Federal-Election-2013/14-3668.html
~


----------



## moXJO

So_Cynical said:


> Current betting is almost 3 to 1 ~ $2.90 to be exact...care to better it?
> 
> http://www.iasbet.com/bet/politics/...Australian-Federal-Election-2013/14-3668.html
> ~




Labor is in for a wipeout at next election. More bad news for them on its way this year.


----------



## joea

So_Cynical said:


> On a 2 party preferred vote with labor winning more of the centre than the coalition (like last election) Labor wins...i know that's not predicted at the moment, but im saying it will come to pass at the time.
> 
> Turnbull captures the centre vote, Tony doesn't...they both by default bring the right.




Well I hope the voters are looking at the team and not the individual.
It takes more than one champion player to win a football match.

" A champion team, will beat a team of champions any days."
And that is what  the voter is missing.

Currently the media concentrates on the leaders. wrong! wrong! wrong!
Cheers joea


----------



## Julia

So_Cynical said:


> Current betting is almost 3 to 1 ~ $2.90 to be exact...care to better it?
> ~



I never engage in that sort of betting.   What I'll offer is between you and me, i.e. if you're right I'll pay you $100 and if you're wrong you pay me $100.
Other posters might like to join in.
Let me know, SC.


----------



## sptrawler

I'd put a $100 on with S_C that labor lose big time. 
Kev07 has a better ring than
Julia, get stuffed, I don't give a rats what you think, I've lost my sheen 2013.
They could have the election yesterday, tomorrow, next week, next year. 
The die is cast, that is why the debate is losing its zest.
Actually I wouldn't be suprised if it isn't a relative of the current goon show that is posting positive remarks. LOL
Absolutely everyone I hear talking about the government, appear very unhappy, can't understand that.
I would love to see the results of labors inhouse polling, I bet it is a real hoot.


----------



## sptrawler

Just read this article and found it interesting, even Bob has realised that unions only represent a small proportion of the labour force.
Cranking up the wages for the select few in the mining or construction industries, just pi$$es of the rest of the workers that have to take crap wages to keep a job.
It also adds to their cost of living because the general perception is everyone is on film star wages.IMO
http://www.smh.com.au/national/gillard-rebukes-hawke-on-unions-20120103-1pjno.html


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Just read this article and found it interesting, even Bob has realised that unions only represent a small proportion of the labour force.
> Cranking up the wages for the select few in the mining or construction industries, just pi$$es of the rest of the workers that have to take crap wages to keep a job.
> It also adds to their cost of living because the general perception is everyone is on film star wages.IMO
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/gillard-rebukes-hawke-on-unions-20120103-1pjno.html




Easy fixed become one of the select few.
Seem to forget who else just got a nice fat rise,both sides.


----------



## startrader

News today from the Daily Telegraph:

"Jakarta confirmed people from Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would gain easier entry to Indonesia with similar changes for Pakistanis and Afghans awaiting approval.

The move, *aimed at promoting diplomacy and Indonesian tourism*, comes despite the four nations being listed on Indonesia's so-called "red list" due to security fears."

Relaxed visa laws for people from *Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan*!!  I hate to think how many boats a week will be coming to Australia now.  This government has to deal with this issue and STOP THE BOATS!

What an absolute farce this government is - this is way beyond a joke.  They have got to go NOW!!!


----------



## sptrawler

Can't blame Indonesia, now Australia is doing onshore processing, they may as well get some money for transit visas. 
They will not be refugees anymore, they will be classed as intransit tourists. Priceless just priceless.


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> There's a fundamental difference between the die hard Labor supporters and those of us who are so critical of the government:  Labor sycophants will never, ever acknowledge any fault in the policies or personalities of their chosen side.  Swinging voters and Coalition supporters, on the other hand, are prepared to see the reality of imperfections.



This is MY version of your statement, and exactly how I feel about many members here:

_*There's a fundamental difference between the die hard Liberal supporters and those of us who are so critical of the opposition:  Liberal sycophants will never, ever acknowledge any fault in the policies or personalities of their chosen side.  Swinging voters and Labor supporters, on the other hand, are prepared to see the reality of imperfections.*_ What's the difference??????

Personally, I am disappointed that you have forgotten my admission earlier in my time here that I have swung, particularly before and after the introduction of the GST (because I recognised it not only as good policy, but true tax reform), and at a state level, about 50/50 since then.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> This is MY version of your statement, and exactly how I feel about many members here:
> 
> _*There's a fundamental difference between the die hard Liberal supporters and those of us who are so critical of the opposition:  Liberal sycophants will never, ever acknowledge any fault in the policies or personalities of their chosen side.  Swinging voters and Labor supporters, on the other hand, are prepared to see the reality of imperfections.*_ What's the difference??????
> 
> Personally, I am disappointed that you have forgotten my admission earlier in my time here that I have swung, particularly before and after the introduction of the GST (because I recognised it not only as good policy, but true tax reform), and at a state level, about 50/50 since then.




I think the general thrust here Eager, is that this government has been in power four years.
One can maybe forgive them for over exuberance in the first term, even though it proved a disaster and costly on many fronts.
However this second term and the carbon tax, takes it to a whole new level. 
Our coal mines, which supply us with probably the only advantage we have over most our competitors, cheap electricity, are being bought out by overseas interests. 
This in turn transfers this advantage to other countries.
To add insult to injury we add a tax to Australians for using the electricity produced from coal that we are buying from Indian or Chinese companies. Well that it how it is playing out in W.A.
All this to appease the Greens and Independents, so you can stay in power to secure your pension. For me it's not about which party, it's about how much your prepared to prost%t#!e yourself. My opinions only 

One could claim it is for the future of mankind. 
However, as Martin Fergusun stated recently, if new technology isn't available to replace the coal fired generation we will continue using it. If this fails the fall back position is nuclear.


----------



## So_Cynical

Julia said:


> I never engage in that sort of betting.   What I'll offer is between you and me, i.e. if you're right I'll pay you $100 and if you're wrong you pay me $100.
> Other posters might like to join in.
> Let me know, SC.




I can get almost 3/1 from the bookies...id be a mug punter to take your money at your odds.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> I can get almost 3/1 from the bookies...id be a mug punter to take your money at your odds.




Well I am not sure how many more mug punters will vote for a whipping.LOL
Been around long enough to know you can never call it.

Just one catchy line can get them over the line. It's a bit like lemmings.


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> This is MY version of your statement, and exactly how I feel about many members here:
> 
> _*There's a fundamental difference between the die hard Liberal supporters and those of us who are so critical of the opposition:  Liberal sycophants will never, ever acknowledge any fault in the policies or personalities of their chosen side.  Swinging voters and Labor supporters, on the other hand, are prepared to see the reality of imperfections.*_ What's the difference??????



Fair enough, Eager.  It's just perhaps that there seem to be no ASF members who, if favouring the Left, are not die hard supporters, unwilling to accept the failings of their side.
Knobby is one who often seems able to acknowledge the achievements and failures of both sides.




> Personally, I am disappointed that you have forgotten my admission earlier in my time here that I have swung, particularly before and after the introduction of the GST (because I recognised it not only as good policy, but true tax reform), and at a state level, about 50/50 since then.



Well, I'm very sorry if I have overlooked some particular thing you have said.  The site has thousands of posters and sadly my memory is not up to storing every comment from all of them.
However, thank you for repeating your stance.  Good to hear.

Perhaps your more recent ardent defence of the government has made more of an impression on me than your past approval of the GST.



So_Cynical said:


> I can get almost 3/1 from the bookies...id be a mug punter to take your money at your odds.



Hah, I thought you wouldn't be up for a simple bet.   Different story when asked to put your money where your mouth is huh!


----------



## dutchie

Rumour going round that, while he was filming PM interview at cricket, Joe The Cameraman whispered - "Can't bowl, can't bat, can't govern"


----------



## So_Cynical

dutchie said:


> Rumour going round that, while he was filming PM interview at cricket, Joe The Cameraman whispered - "Can't bowl, can't bat, can't govern"




While we are on the subject of PM's that cant bowl etc.
~


----------



## noco

So_Cynical said:


> While we are on the subject of PM's that cant bowl etc.
> ~





Clap! Clap! Clap! At least he had a go.

I'd like to see the red headed long nose wombat with a basket ball. LOL.


----------



## Knobby22

So_Cynical said:


> While we are on the subject of PM's that cant bowl etc.
> ~




That's the sweet side of the man. What a cricket tragic! 

He had seen it done so much in real life and on TV he thought he had a clue.  
It was said he agonised over the annual Prime Minster 11 game as he had to pick the Australian team.

I think all our prime ministers have had a good heart (even Keating). If you look at them compared to what other countries have had, like Silvio Berlosconi and Dick Cheney you can see we are the lucky country.


----------



## Logique

Knobby22 said:


> ..I think all our prime ministers have had a good heart (even Keating). If you look at them compared to what other countries have had, like Silvio Berlosconi and Dick Cheney you can see we are the lucky country..



I think this is a current dilemma in Australian politics. 

To me, with the Leader of the Greens, I don't know what planet he is on, and many of his followers. With the PM, of late she has given me pause, some of the policies seem just plain malevolent toward everyday Australians. Appearing at the SCG wearing a pink hat is fine, but look at the broader policy framework.

And making an attempt at balance, the new Speaker, ex Coalition member, probably raises questions in Labor minds.


----------



## noco

I had to blink my eyes several times and shake my head to make sure what I was reading in the link below was true.

Is there a rumble down under occurring between the Greens and the Labor party?

I don't think Martin Ferguson is any great fan of the Greens. Bob Brown has certainly expressed his displeasure at the Lablor Party's action. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...tor-green-groups/story-e6freonf-1226238675002


----------



## Logique

I've heard Martin Ferguson described as the only grown up in the government.
Also heard recently that Canada and NZ are stripping Greenpeace of tax free status, on the basis of being a political organization.


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> Well, I'm very sorry if I have overlooked some particular thing you have said.



Don't sweat it. I was wrong to assume that you or anyone for that matter would automatically remember everything that I write, so I'm sorry too! 

No probs.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> I don't think Martin Ferguson is any great fan of the Greens. Bob Brown has certainly expressed his displeasure at the Lablor Party's action.



One can imagine that Martin would like to have given Bob a punch on the nose after this effort,


----------



## sptrawler

I loved the one on friday, where Julia said Barnett shoots from the lip.
Is this the person who stuffed up our beef export industry after watching 'four corners'
What a joke, obviously she learns nothing from her own mistakes.


----------



## Calliope

The hottest day of the year in Ipswich and not one of these Labor idiots has the sense to wear a hat.


----------



## sptrawler

The only one bird with a brain flew away.


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> The hottest day of the year in Ipswich and not one of these Labor idiots has the sense to wear a hat.




Launching the NBN in Ipswich??


----------



## joea

Not very often or never do people go back a couple of years to study what politicians say or do.(In the next Federal Election we won't have to)
So I have attached an article from  Christopher Pearson.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...s-proves-spot-on/story-e6frg7ko-1226243909407

Its Abbott's diagnosis of Rudd's essay on why the sudden change by Labor on economic policy.

joea


----------



## sptrawler

I think we mentioned a long time ago on the forum the government was going to sort out the two speed economy by deflating minning wages.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...p-up-remote-jobs/story-fn7kjcme-1226244903276


----------



## sptrawler

Here is a perfect example of why labor and the greens want an investigation into media bias. 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-...ailure-to-verify-expenses-20120116-1q381.html
Read the first sentence three labor people mentioned, but Tony highlighted.
Jeez what a buch off dicks


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> The hottest day of the year in Ipswich and not one of these Labor idiots has the sense to wear a hat.



Who's the biggest bird brain. Not Anna Bligh who is alright, even if she is Labor.


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> Here is a perfect example of why labor and the greens want an investigation into media bias.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-...ailure-to-verify-expenses-20120116-1q381.html
> Read the first sentence three labor people mentioned, but Tony highlighted.
> Jeez what a buch off dicks



Quite clearly the SMH having a go at Tony Abbott. He's the Opposition Leader, where is the record of expenses paid to PM Julia Gillard. Notch another one up for the Love Media.


----------



## noco

How much more has Gillard paid 'WEAK WILKIE' to back down on his threats to withdraw support for Government.

No wonder she refuses to comment to the media; more back room deals!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ilkie-backs-down/story-fn59niix-1226246859316


----------



## todster

noco said:


> How much more has Gillard paid 'WEAK WILKIE' to back down on his threats to withdraw support for Government.
> 
> No wonder she refuses to comment to the media; more back room deals!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ilkie-backs-down/story-fn59niix-1226246859316




Didn't you come out from under your rock the day Flipper was made speaker?


----------



## Logique

A manadatory precommitment trial in 2016, after the next election. In other words, no.


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Didn't you come out from under your rock the day Flipper was made speaker?




Just another JU-LIAR BACK FLIP and just another JU-LIAR LIE. She can't be trusted.

There will be NO CARBON TAX under the Government I lead.

We WILL impliment POKER MACHINE reforms by May 2012.

Oh yeah!!!!! and PIGS MIGHT FLY.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> A manadatory precommitment trial in 2016, after the next election. In other words, no.



 Yes.  It's quite funny watching Wilkie trying not to look as though he's backing down.
Oh, the hell he was going to unleash if Ms Gillard did not meet her commitment!


----------



## noco

noco said:


> How much more has Gillard paid 'WEAK WILKIE' to back down on his threats to withdraw support for Government.
> 
> No wonder she refuses to comment to the media; more back room deals!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ilkie-backs-down/story-fn59niix-1226246859316




I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but am receiving mixed signals on "WE WILLIE WINKIE". 
Is he standing firm on Gillard or is he backing down?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-on-pokies-truce/story-fn59niix-1226247107232


----------



## joea

noco said:


> I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but am receiving mixed signals on "WE WILLIE WINKIE".
> Is he standing firm on Gillard or is he backing down?
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-on-pokies-truce/story-fn59niix-1226247107232




It has been pointed out to him, that since the agreement between Gillard and himself that she has picked up an additional vote.
So "WE Willie" is checking out if he can get a bit more support. There is a fair chance that he is trying to get Crook to support his idea.
WA is where its all happening at the moment.
joea


----------



## IFocus

Pokies are a good example of money winning (Clubs and their lies) over general support for reform.


----------



## joea

IFocus said:


> Pokies are a good example of money winning (Clubs and their lies) over general support for reform.




I think there is something deeper going on behind this reform.
Its either that, or  the Media have not got much to write about.
I think journalism has entered a new era.
Once it used to report the news.
Now its about the media putting up their preferred course of action, then following up reporting if it was effective(if it was followed).
In other words they are attempting to create the "plot" for the politicians to follow.

I think 3 independent are going to start "frothing at the mouth", with Gillard's course of action on this reform. However I have been wrong before.
joea


----------



## joea

Isn't it great to be alive today.

Labor have Barnett "trembling" at the knees with a new opposition leader on Monday.

The Government has acknowledged the Australian Economy will see a down turn this year.

And to top the items above, Bill Shorten (Workplace Relations Minister) is on the ABC this morning talking about the Australian Economy.
Our currency is in our favor and , we have room to move with our rates.
Well "HELLO HELLO", where is our Treasurer and our Glorious Leader.
MISSING IN ACTION.
joea


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> Isn't it great to be alive today.
> 
> Labor have Barnett "trembling" at the knees with a new opposition leader on Monday.





Before Barnett became premier he was a complete joke and retiring from politics then the chair sniffer blew up.........currently the Liberal front bench is a complete joke as the Margret River fires showed.  


State Labor would likely have the stronger team over all but not sure the new leader will capture the voters attention.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Before Barnett became premier he was a complete joke and retiring from politics then the chair sniffer blew up.........currently the Liberal front bench is a complete joke as the Margret River fires showed.
> 
> 
> State Labor would likely have the stronger team over all but not sure the new leader will capture the voters attention.




I agree, there really isn't a lot of talent on either side.


----------



## joea

IFocus said:


> State Labor would likely have the stronger team over all but not sure the new leader will capture the voters attention.




Regardless what the uneducated think, Barnett appears to be doing a good job, while Labor are still slipping over in the mud of the Margret River.

State and federal Labor are nothing but a 'bloody" joke!!
joea


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> And to top the items above, Bill Shorten (Workplace Relations Minister) is on the ABC this morning talking about the Australian Economy.
> Our currency is in our favor and , we have room to move with our rates.
> Well "HELLO HELLO", where is our Treasurer and our Glorious Leader.
> MISSING IN ACTION.
> joea



To be fair, Wayne Swan was on deck over the Christmas period while Gillard and Shorten were on holiday.  Presumably he's now having his holiday and Shorten is Acting Treasurer/spokesperson.

This is not a comment on anything any of them have had to say about the economy which is disingenuous b/s.


----------



## todster

joea said:


> Regardless what the uneducated think, Barnett appears to be doing a good job, while Labor are still slipping over in the mud of the Margret River.
> 
> State and federal Labor are nothing but a 'bloody" joke!!
> joea




Would you like to run me through what Barnett is doing so well,give us a qld mango pickers view of it.
Can't wait


----------



## moXJO

todster said:


> Would you like to run me through what Barnett is doing so well,give us a qld mango pickers view of it.
> Can't wait




Are odds on labor wining the next state election against him?


----------



## sptrawler

Labor W.A have just flipped leaders, can't wait to see what happens in the Queensland election.
Labor Australia wide is trying to reinvent itself, my feeling is they will have plenty of time for navel gazing after their next elections. The problem is the federal minority government is reflecting badly on the whole Labor brand and that is going to be highlighted in all state elections.IMO
Whose the boss this week? Bob, Wilkie, Oakeshotte or Julia. Australians don't like messy government.


----------



## todster

moXJO said:


> Are odds on labor wining the next state election against him?




Maybe you can run me through it then......anyone.....power bills spring to mind.
Liberal play safe do nothing.


----------



## todster

Geez nearly forgot got rid of rego stickers.


----------



## moXJO

todster said:


> Maybe you can run me through it then......anyone.....power bills spring to mind.
> Liberal play safe do nothing.




No I don't live in the hole digging state or follow what has been going on over there, it was a serious question.


----------



## sptrawler

Well shock, horror the word is Wilkie is going to stand by his principles. Wonders never cease, I suppose even he knew that to back down would be the definate end of his political career.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...on-julia-gillard/story-e6freooo-1226250078030


----------



## Julia

Well, good for Andrew Wilkie if he does indeed withdraw all his support.  I thought he'd not go through with it and would acquiesce to some sort of compromise.

I admire his integrity if he goes through with it and think Gillard is being unwise in treating him in such a cavalier fashion.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Well, good for Andrew Wilkie if he does indeed withdraw all his support.  I thought he'd not go through with it and would acquiesce to some sort of compromise.
> 
> I admire his integrity if he goes through with it and think Gillard is being unwise in treating him in such a cavalier fashion.




Julia, I believe Ms. Gillard had made up her mind to dishonour her agreement with Wilkie and dump him long before parliament ended last year. 

Enter Peter Slipper, exit the current speaker and gain one extra seat for safety. Surely Wilkie would have smelt a rat and saw this coming with her cunning action.

She is now back to one majority in her shakey minority government.


----------



## Julia

I'm sure you're right, noco.  She is shameless and without any integrity.
I don't agree with Andrew Wilkie's policies, but think he has negotiated in good faith, is essentially without guile, and seems to have believed she was genuine.
Poor bugger has found out differently.


----------



## drsmith

What Andrew Wilkie has discovered is what many have long since realised.

The bitch is very much a dog.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-...-over-broken-pokies-deal/3786040?WT.svl=news0

What was he expecting after the backroom deal to shaft the electorate with the carbon tax ?


----------



## Wysiwyg

drsmith said:


> What Andrew Wilkie has discovered is what many have long since realised.



Who is Andrew Winky to tell people what they will do with their money. Butt out dude and go save the whales.


----------



## sptrawler

Wysiwyg said:


> Who is Andrew Winky to tell people what they will do with their money. Butt out dude and go save the whales.




He might as well try saving the whales, Garret won't.


----------



## Logique

Wysiwyg said:


> Who is Andrew Winky to tell people what they will do with their money. Butt out dude and go save the whales.



Indeed, how the mighty have fallen. 

The next item on the Fabian hit list is - means testing private health insurance rebates. No amount of research and analysis on the folly of this will dissuade them, eg:  http://www.apha.org.au/media-centre/means-testing-private-health-insurance-rebate-ad-campaign/  -_Means Testing Health Insurance Rebate Threatens Balanced Health Care System_.  A 10% rise in premiums across the board in predicted. Along with much longer queues at the public hospitals.

But no, everything must be within a public system where Labor can regulate and control and build bureaucracies. Despite the public system bulging at the seams as it is. 

'I don't want an apprentice plumber subsidizing my health care', says PM Gillard, in a propaganda triumph. The PM was strangely silent however, when that same apprentice had to cough up for a 30% pay rise for the pollies. And strangely silent on the 10% premium increase we can all expect. Wilkie is against this, so he has one useful policy position at least.


----------



## Calliope

Gillard needn't worry much about losing Wilkie's vote. He would never vote with the Liberals whom he hates more than Gillard. The furthest he would go would be to abstain on selective bills.

Julia;


> but think he has negotiated in good faith, is essentially without guile, and seems to have believed she was genuine.




It was blackmail.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> Gillard needn't worry much about losing Wilkie's vote. He would never vote with the Liberals whom he hates more than Gillard. The furthest he would go would be to abstain on selective bills.
> 
> Julia;
> 
> 
> It was blackmail.




All made possible by the person YOU voted for


----------



## Calliope

todster said:


> All made possible by the person YOU voted for




Well he's yours now and good riddance The Labor party is a mecca for deserters and two-timing rats. You can have Turnbull if you want him. Wilkie, of course was a Liberal deserter.


----------



## Glen48

The Dead Horse Theory



The tribal wisdom of the Plains Indians, passed on from generation to generation, says that "When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount."



However, in government more advanced strategies are often employed, such as:



1. Buying a stronger whip.



2. Changing riders.



3. Appointing a committee to study the horse.



4. Arranging to visit other countries to see how other cultures ride dead horses.



5. Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be included.



6. Reclassifying the dead horse as living-impaired.



7. Hiring outside contractors to ride the dead horse.



8. Harnessing several dead horses together to increase speed.



9. Providing additional funding and/or training to increase the dead horse's performance.



10. Doing a productivity study to see if lighter riders would improve the dead horse's performance.



11. Declaring that as the dead horse does not have to be fed, it is less costly, carries lower overhead and therefore contributes substantially more to the bottom line of the economy than do some other horses.



12. Rewriting the expected performance requirements for all horses.



And, of course...



13. Promoting the dead horse to a supervisory position


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> Well he's yours now and good riddance The Labor party is a mecca for deserters and two-timing rats. You can have Turnbull if you want him. Wilkie, of course was a Liberal deserter.




lol you talk about the ALP knifing Wilkie short memories dude.


----------



## Calliope

todster said:


> lol you talk about the ALP knifing Wilkie short memories dude.




Wrong again dude. The ALP didn't knife Wilkie. He knifed himself.


----------



## noco

Could this be the real reason why Gillard knifed Wilkie?

The Labor Party needs the money to finance the next election campaign.



  CANBERRA TIMES

Labor moves to protect party finances
BY NOEL TOWELL, CHIEF ASSEMBLY REPORTER
21 Jan, 2012 01:00 AM
ACT Labor is sitting on a $41million poker machine jackpot through its affiliated clubs group.
And the Canberra Labor Club group has begun multimillion asset transfers to other party-associated entities ahead of reform aimed at blocking ACT Labor's access to the clubs' gambling revenue.
Party officials want to position ACT Labor so it is no longer financed by poker machines, the mainstay of its income for more than 30 years.
The Canberra Labor Club group's annual report reveals the clubs, which operate 488 machines across four venues in Canberra, made a profit of nearly $3.3million in 2010-11 and is sitting on ''members' funds'' of more than $41million.
The report details the latest efforts to reposition ACT Labor's finances from poker machines and into real estate as its political rivals look to choke off the party's revenue from associated gambling operations.
The last attempt to diversify party revenue sources, a bid in 2009 to sell the clubs to the Tradies' Group, collapsed amid factional squabbling. The clubs group has begun channelling money into an investment vehicle - the 1973 Foundation - set up to purchase property investments, seen as the future of the local party's finances.
In August 2011, according to the club group's documents, a $3.7million debt, incurred by the 1973 Foundation, was repaid to Westpac bank by the group.
Earlier that month, the clubs paid $618,000 for a property in the name of the Australian Labor Party (ACT Branch), with both of the transactions to be recorded in the 2011-12 accounts as company expenses.
The report also records the clubs, which were established for the express purpose of supporting ACT Labor, contributed $539,606, to the party's coffers as well as a $3000 donation to Labor's Ginninderra branch. 
The donations were made before a Bill was introduced into the Assembly by the Canberra Liberals last year with the support of the ACT Greens which, if passed, would make it a criminal offence to donate more than $50,000 to a political party.
The law would choke off Labor's money supply, which has traditionally come in the form of donations from the clubs, while leaving the Liberals' main source - rental income from a multimillion-dollar office property in Deakin - intact.
Labor's shift into real estate would effectively protect its revenues from any more attacks by its political rivals by moving to a similar funding model as the Canberra Liberals. 
The Assembly is also awaiting the recommendations of a committee examining campaign finance reform which is expected to recommend caps on donations and limits to election expenditure.
Canberra Labor Club president Tony Luchetti cold not be contacted for comment yesterday. But Labor's ACT Branch Secretary Elias Hallaj said the move to the foundation funding model was continuation of the support the party had traditionally enjoyed from its affiliated clubs.
''The Labor clubs were set up more than 30 years ago by local party members, some of whom mortgaged their homes, to support the party and local community organisations and they continue to fulfil that objective,'' Mr Hallaj said.
''I trust local community clubs will be able to continue that valued support of the party and many other community organisations into the future.''



.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Julia;
> It was blackmail.



 Yes, I suppose it was.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> Wrong again dude. The ALP didn't knife Wilkie. He knifed himself.




Best you speak to noco then


----------



## sptrawler

Is this pokies reform going to end up another pink batts fiasco.
 Yes we will have pre comitment, no we won't but we put $1 limits on, then again maybe we won't. But the Greens will put $1 limits on, if they get the support.
But Wilkie won't support it, then again he won't vote against it.
We will run run a trail in the A.C.T when the A.L.P has off loaded its pokies.
More moves than a Swiss Watch I bet Aristocrat shareholders are on the edge of their seats.LOL
Another industry under the pump that has nothing to do with the carbon tax.LOL
http://www.aristocrat.com.au/company/Pages/default.aspx

These goons just crack me up, actually I just thought of the movie skit that personifies them. 
If I remember correctly it was 'The Holy Grail' when John Clease as Lancelot chopped up the wedding reception. Then when realising his folly he says sorry.
The difference here is they don't say sorry.


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Best you speak to noco then




Well, which ever way you want to look at it todster. I think each have a knife in the back. Both have drawn blood.It has confirmed Gillard has lied AGAIN and We Willie Wilke looks like a fool for trusting her. 
Gillard had it all planned long before Parliament rose for recession just before Xmas, hence the reason she replaced Jenkins with Slipper to gain that extra seat.
She knew she could not keep her promise and agreement with Wilkie. Blind Freddie could see that. Wilkie had his blinkers on.
Todster, I hope you read my post no 2206 reagrding the transfer of Labor party funds involving money from poker machines. ( The Canberra Times.) It is no wonder Gillard does not want dem pokies banned. No money to fill the Labor Party coffers.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Well, which ever way you want to look at it todster. I think each have a knife in the back. Both have drawn blood.It has confirmed Gillard has lied AGAIN and We Willie Wilke looks like a fool for trusting her.
> Gillard had it all planned long before Parliament rose for recession just before Xmas, hence the reason she replaced Jenkins with Slipper to gain that extra seat.
> She knew she could not keep her promise and agreement with Wilkie. Blind Freddie could see that. Wilkie had his blinkers on.
> Todster, I hope you read my post no 2206 reagrding the transfer of Labor party funds involving money from poker machines. ( The Canberra Times.) It is no wonder Gillard does not want dem pokies banned. No money to fill the Labor Party coffers.



 When you live in WA,
pokies are in Burswood Casino and thats about it


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> When you live in WA,
> pokies are in Burswood Casino and thats about it




Best thing ever. There is nothing nice about going into a hotel and seeing obviously 'poor' people feeding the machines.


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Best thing ever. There is nothing nice about going into a hotel and seeing obviously 'poor' people feeding the machines.




Some say thats why you get so many bands from here


----------



## sptrawler

I remember we drove the Nullarbor and took the kids for a meal in the dinning room of the Ceduna Pub, at the end of the pier. Watched the W.C.E play on the big screen.
Next time we went over, the kids asked if we could do it again, you couldn't get in it was full of pokies.


----------



## Wysiwyg

sptrawler said:


> Best thing ever. There is nothing nice about going into a hotel and seeing obviously 'poor' people feeding the machines.



 Well don't be shy. Drag 'em out, brush their teeth, dress them as you would, kick 'em up the bum and shove them back into the race.

There are millions upon millions of people and animals in the world to feel pitiful for.


----------



## Wysiwyg

todster said:


> When you live in WA,
> pokies are in Burswood Casino and thats about it



And that is the best solution. Same should go for any thieving gambling operation.


----------



## joea

Hi.
Well the pokie reform(or lack of reform) has achieved "one" thing.

Julia has come up with a new slogan. "The Labor Government is about getting things done"
In a interview this morning, she repeated it a number of times.

All we need now is the report on Craig Thompson from Fair Work Australia, and we can throw "the cat" in with the pigeons

joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Hi.
> Well the pokie reform(or lack of reform) has achieved "one" thing.
> 
> Julia has come up with a new slogan. "The Labor Government is about getting things done"
> In a interview this morning, she repeated it a number of times.
> 
> All we need now is the report on Craig Thompson from Fair Work Australia, and we can throw "the cat" in with the pigeons
> 
> joea




I believed Fair Work Australia with some 8 Labor people on the board have thrown the case out from lack of evidence.

It is now up to the Victorian and NSW police to do their bit.

Lack of evidence!!!!!!!!!! What a load  bull.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> I believed Fair Work Australia with some 8 Labor people on the board have thrown the case out from lack of evidence.
> 
> It is now up to the Victorian and NSW police to do their bit.
> 
> Lack of evidence!!!!!!!!!! What a load  bull.



Ah, that explains his poking his head up in support of his boss's knifing of Wilkie.
More and more it falls into place.  FWA are going to let him off (of course) so Gillard has enough confidence in her numbers to tell Wilkie to take a running jump.


----------



## Calliope

Nothing has changed. Wilkie is behaving like a petulant child, but he doesn't have the backbone to put his money where his mouth is. He doesn't scare Gillard. She has his measure. Her actions were the correct ones.  His knife was too blunt. 



> When, after the 2010 election, Wilkie, Rob Oakeshott, Tony Windsor and the Greens agreed to support Labor, they gave just two guarantees: confidence and supply.
> On the first, they would support a no-confidence motion against the government only in a case of serious misconduct or corruption. And, while they would guarantee supply, they reserved the right to vote against individual budget measures and other policies.
> 
> On Saturday, Wilkie gave the same undertakings: "I will only support motions of no confidence in the event of serious misconduct and not support politically opportunistic motions. I will consider budget measures on their merits.''




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...l-for-labor-20120122-1qc9d.html#ixzz1kEpn3Yhz


----------



## trainspotter

I listened to the Red Queen on the Telly this morning for about 2 mins. I then got a nasty taste in my mouth and had to remove the contents of my stomach into the porcelain.


----------



## Calliope

Ah. Of course, it's all Abbott's fault according to Conroy.



> So what's the now-slightly-more-minority government to do? Could they (a) blame Tony Abbott; (b) blame Tony Abbott; (c) blame Tony Abbott; or - wildcard - (d) blame the Wiggles? Let's see how Communications Minister Stephen Conroy handled this dilemma yesterday:* "What's really rich is Tony Abbott, a man who could deliver the numbers, stopping a promise being delivered, then saying a promise has been broken." *That was probably the most solid choice, but it would have been fun to see Conroy try the Wiggles angle.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/no-wiggling-out/story-e6frgdk6-1226250755356


----------



## Logique

Ouch! And in the Love Media too. Context of the backdown on pokies.

*Why we can't trust Gillard any more* 
Michael Short [a senior _Age_ editor], January 25, 2012

"Public policy driven by ideology, rather than the intellectualism so neatly encapsulated by the late Lord Keynes, is the antithesis of what we should be seeking.....There has been an inversion; the real leadership is coming from the community, a community that has left Gillard behind..."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...rd-any-more-20120124-1qfo0.html#ixzz1kQYPDLvQ


----------



## Calliope

Craig Thomson obviously knows what the outcome of FWA's investigation will be, hence his smug look









> THE warning from Health Services Union secretary Kathy Jackson that Fair Work Australia's investigation into Labor MP Craig Thomson's expenses while HSU secretary could be open to political manipulation demands that the government urge FWA to complete its investigation without delay.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-demands-answers/story-e6frg71x-1226252811704


----------



## sptrawler

I don't know who Miranda Devine is, but she certainly supports the theory, you can't blame Tony for everything. When you are the government and can't govern.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...rds-nose-itch/comments-e6frezz0-1226253777213

What about about Albanese saying he hasn't seen the movie and it was the speech writer. 
Just shows, you only have to be able to read, to get a politicians pension.


----------



## Julia

For anyone who hasn't heard about Albo's plagiarism of a Hollywood movie script in his address to the Press Club, here is what happened:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8408848/albanese-accused-of-plagiarism-in-speech

Pretty embarrassing for Labor.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Gee it looked like an assassination attempt on Julia and I notice Tony in close quarters during the evacuation. Sad to see hatred manifested toward our pollies.


----------



## sptrawler

Wysiwyg said:


> Gee it looked like an assassination attempt on Julia and I notice Tony in close quarters during the evacuation. Sad to see hatred manifested toward our pollies.




That Wyslstick, was pretty average. Didn't look good, maybe the government should lay bare how much is spent on trying to fix the indigenous problem.
I am sure it would put it in a different light.

Can't wait for the British to start asking Italy for compensation for the Roman invasion.
Maybe China can get stuck into Russia for Genghis Khan.
Brazil, Chilli and South America in general should be really getting stuck into Spain, they were really nasty.

Not being funny, but it would be interesting to see the aboriginal plight if Japan had taken Australia in the second world war.
If Japan and Germany had been successful in world domination, rather than the British/ U.S coalition. It would be very interesting to see how the radical minority groups would have been treated.
Funny how we want the compassionate to fight for us, then want to turn that compassion against them.
That is because it is seen as a weakness when they are friends IMO


----------



## Wysiwyg

sptrawler said:


> Can't wait for the British to start asking Italy for compensation for the Roman invasion.
> Maybe China can get stuck into Russia for Genghis Khan.
> Brazil, Chilli and South America in general should be really getting stuck into Spain, they were really nasty.



The American Indian has the greatest case of all. As you see, white man speak with forked tongue. Yet you see black African/Americans claiming compensation (subtly) for slavery and getting it.


----------



## sptrawler

Wysiwyg said:


> The American Indian has the greatest case of all. As you see, white man speak with forked tongue. Yet you see black African/Americans claiming compensation (subtly) for slavery and getting it.




I think if the facts are explained, you will find the indigenous australians are getting it also. One just has to ask, is the compensation getting through or being syphoned off.
Also, of the money that does get through, how much is saved or spent wisely?
If you doubled the money it wouldn't change the outcome.
IMO if you spent 10 times more money on the issue all it would do would increase the corruption and decrease the life expectancy. My opinions only, not based on anything other than my personal experience living in remote areas.


----------



## Wysiwyg

sptrawler said:


> I think if the facts are explained, you will find the indigenous australians are getting it also. One just has to ask, is the compensation getting through or being syphoned off.



Wherever money is involved, corruption and misuse aren't too far away. The ones claiming the world owes them and they have been hard done by are pretty shallow types.  *No one owes anyone anything.* Just squeezin the government teat.


----------



## sptrawler

Wysiwyg said:


> The American Indian has the greatest case of all. As you see, white man speak with forked tongue. Yet you see black African/Americans claiming compensation (subtly) for slavery and getting it.




Also as for the qoute white man speak with forked tongue.
Do you think the Japs spoke the truth when they used local slave labour on the Burma railroad, we get annoyed because 30,000 allied prisoners died on it, well 200,000 locals died on it.
How many hotentots have been enslaved or killed by zulu's.
The only reason the black African/Americans are claiming compensation and are getting it is because British based culture has compassion.
I don't see Thailand claiming and getting compensation from Japan.
I don't see the Jews getting a lot of compensation from Germany.
The only ones who got compensation for the second world war was America, who got the lend lease from England, which gave them free access to British patents. I think Britain was only released from the lend lease recently.
But do you hear Britain saying, we were screwed over to finance saving the rest of the world.
History is full of injusticies, it is just some people move on and get over it and others want to milk it.IMO


----------



## Wysiwyg

sptrawler said:


> History is full of injusticies, it is just some people move on and get over it and others want to milk it.IMO



While we're on injustices, how many nasties in the world live in opulence, have well payed jobs, have chicks hangin off them, have people kissin their ass and cause suffering for a few to millions of people? 

As the song goes ... "steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king."  

End rave, g' night.


----------



## joea

Wysiwyg said:


> Wherever money is involved, corruption and misuse aren't too far away. The ones claiming the world owes them and they have been hard done by are pretty shallow types.  *No one owes anyone anything.* Just squeezin the government teat.




I think we could safely say that wherever there is money involved, corruption is hand in hand. Especially where it involves Government funds.
Because of our unfair tax system, fraud (big or small) has "become a blood sport".
I have no answer to eliminate it, but I think the parties that will be elected shortly have a responsibility to reduce it.
If they cannot, we can safely say "tax breaks" will just be covered somewhere else in the system. i.e. they will give with one hand and immediately take it back with the other.(in Labors case give $1 and take back $1.20 because of bad decisions. They may then understand it applies to their household also.

The Australian voter has to be made to understand that the budget should be balanced, and not to be allowed to run in to an unaccountable "deficit".
joea


----------



## moXJO

Wysiwyg said:


> Gee it looked like an assassination attempt on Julia and I notice Tony in close quarters during the evacuation. Sad to see hatred manifested toward our pollies.




That was a case of hatred towards whites, jumping on something and twisting it into another 'Im a victim' story. They sent the efforts of those who have been working behind the scenes for equality back about 20 years.


----------



## Logique

moXJO said:


> That was a case of hatred towards whites, jumping on something and twisting it into another 'Im a victim' story. They sent the efforts of those who have been working behind the scenes for equality back about 20 years.



Very ill advised and counter productive actions yesterday. Rightly condemned this morning by Warren Mundine and by an ATSIC Commissioner. 

Chalk another one up for Australia Day.  Always good feelings around Anzac Day and Melbourne Cup day, but Australia Day usually manages some sort of incident.


----------



## breaker

I wonder where aboriginals would be if we did'nt "invade"


----------



## Logique

That's our shoeless Prime Minister  there. Some image to send around the world on Australia Day. I was told on another thread to get a grip. Fortunately that security officer has a good grip on the PM. 
PM Gillard on the day saw to the safety of the Opposition Leader, which was appropriate.
Pic from: http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## moXJO

lol


> “So who to blame this time for the “climate of hate"?"
> 
> Climatologists have determined that man-made global warming causes climates of hate.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> That's our shoeless Prime Minister  there. Some image to send around the world on Australia Day. I was told on another thread to get a grip




Apparently not too many members are concerned  about the Australia Day riots. I posted yesterday my thoughts (on the Australia Day Flag thread) and only got one response. To see our PM being treated like tihis brings shame on us all. The laid back attitude over this disgraceful riot is surprising.

More surprising is that no charges are being laid although ereryone knows the chief instigator of the riot. She boasts about it.  Barbara Shaw, a Greens activist, deliberately  spread the lies about what Mr Abbott said, and told her worked up audience where to find him.

Blame Abbott for everything is now the catch cry, and even most of the news media last night and this morning were calling Abbott the catalyst.



> At the tent embassy, a few hundred metres down King George Terrace from The Lobby, nearly 1000 had gathered to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the land rights protest that never ended. Dogs roamed the crowd and children were playing peacefully.
> 
> At 2.27pm, Abbott's comments - or a mangled version of them - were relayed to the crowd over a loud speaker. Abbott, elder *Barbara Shaw* told her audience, wanted to tear down their precious site. Anger spread. "Where is he?" yelled two young women near the front of the crowd by the traditional firepit.
> 
> Shaw knew Abbott was at The Lobby, having arrived about half an hour earlier for an Australia Day function with Gillard to recognise emergency services people. "He's that way!" she shouted.
> 
> Enraged, the two thirtysomething women - *Marianne Mackay and Selina Davey-Newry *- called on more than 100 activists to converge on the glass-walled restaurant. Minutes later the mob arrived.



(My bolds)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...er-security-tent/story-fn9hm1pm-1226254784804






Barbara Shaw


----------



## DB008

breaker said:


> I wonder where aboriginals would be if we did'nt "invade"




I wonder how many '_*B*illions_' we have given the indigenous population over the years?


----------



## Calliope

DB008 said:


> I wonder how many '_*B*illions_' we have given the indigenous population over the years?




It's like foreign aid to a third world country. Not much gets to the work face. It's all frittered away in administration, graft and corruption.


----------



## Calliope

Ms Gillard denies it was one of her staff;

Mr Hadley reported a staffer rang Ms Shaw yesterday to say Mr Abbott had made inflammatory comments regarding the tent city.
"Once she was told that, she was also told Mr Abbott was across the road, 'maybe you can give them a bit of a liven up'," Mr Hadley said.
"Barbara Shaw then went on stage and, for all intents and purposes, incited people."


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/pms-...bbott-claim-20120127-1ql0z.html#ixzz1kcmHH84x


----------



## sptrawler

It won't look good for julia if was all a publicity stunt, it could have gone terribly wrong.
Inciting a riot like that would be poor form by the prime ministers staff, should end up in a sacking.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> It won't look good for julia if was all a publicity stunt, it could have gone terribly wrong.
> Inciting a riot like that would be poor form by the prime ministers staff, should end up in a sacking.



 If it was a stunt by Gillard's office, it will all be covered up.  No one will admit anything.
As usual.  Poor old Albo, however, couldn't cover up his plagiarism.  I'm still laughing about that.

Imo Australia Day should be wiped.  There's always some sort of trouble.

If we must have an "Australian of the Year" etc why not announce those awards along with the New Year Honours list.   Citizenship ceremonies occur throughout the year anyway, don't they?  No need for Australia Day for that either.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Ms Gillard denies it was one of her staff;
> 
> Mr Hadley reported a staffer rang Ms Shaw yesterday to say Mr Abbott had made inflammatory comments regarding the tent city.
> "Once she was told that, she was also told Mr Abbott was across the road, 'maybe you can give them a bit of a liven up'," Mr Hadley said.
> "Barbara Shaw then went on stage and, for all intents and purposes, incited people."
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/pms-...bbott-claim-20120127-1ql0z.html#ixzz1kcmHH84x




With all Gillards conniving, lying and back flipping. nothing would surprise me if she sanctioned this riot or demonstartion to make Abbott look bad in the public eye.

Gillard is capable of anything just to stay in power.


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> With all Gillards conniving, lying and back flipping. nothing would surprise me if she sanctioned this riot or demonstartion to make Abbott look bad in the public eye.
> 
> Gillard is capable of anything just to stay in power.




If she knew it was going to happen and aimed at Abbott, then offering Abbott protection was just a stunt.She hasn't actually denied the allegations. She said;



> "(The allegations) come as complete news to me. Obviously quite a lot of things get said on the radio," she said.
> "I haven't had time to look at the matter."




Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/mob...ay/story-e6frfkvr-1226255412805#ixzz1kdqPxC9u


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

My contacts in Canberra tell me that Julia Gillard has just sacked a media adviser for telling someone who told the Tent Embassy mob of Tony Abbott's whereabouts yesterday.

As yet unconfirmed but credible.

gg


----------



## sptrawler

Garpal Gumnut said:


> My contacts in Canberra tell me that Julia Gillard has just sacked a media adviser for telling someone who told the Tent Embassy mob of Tony Abbott's whereabouts yesterday.
> 
> As yet unconfirmed but credible.
> 
> gg




You info was correct GG. Just on the radio she has sacked a senior media adviser.
Reflects really badly on the P.M's staff behaviour, would it have been o.k if they hadn't been sprung, was it past practice and custom?
What a real mess.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

sptrawler said:


> You info was correct GG. Just on the radio she has sacked a senior media adviser.
> Reflects really badly on the P.M's staff behaviour, would it have been o.k if they hadn't been sprung, was it past practice and custom?
> What a real mess.




This government no longer governs.

It is a farce.

gg


----------



## Calliope

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This government no longer governs.
> 
> It is a farce.
> 
> gg




Did Gillard know what her staffer was doing. She says not. But Gillard is a serial liar. She has no credibility. On top of this, the FWA, which has been doing it's job to keep Gillard in power has reluctantly decided to make a move on the Craig Thomson scandal.



> THE formal investigation by Fair Work Australia into the Health Services Union has made adverse findings against key union officials including the president, Michael Williamson, the national secretary, Kathy Jackson, and the former national secretary Craig Thomson, now a federal MP.
> The three were notified last month that the workplace regulator intended to make adverse findings against them.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/adverse-findings-against-thomson-20120126-1qjtj.html#ixzz1ke3dsh6c


----------



## moXJO

Get ready for Gillard to get the shove


----------



## bellenuit

*Gillard adviser Tony Hodges resigns after tip-off sparked violent protest*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ver-tent-embassy/story-fn59niix-1226255650827


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> Get ready for Gillard to get the shove



 Are you saying that in the wake of her having to sack the staffer, moXJO, or in a broader context?


----------



## sptrawler

The problem for Gillard from yesterday IMO is, she has taken the 'blame Tony' to a whole new level.
The fact that she became concerned for his safety, could just as easily be because she knew the situation directly or indirectly could reflect on her.
I think the coalition call for a police investigation would have scared the crap out of them. 
What if the P.R guy did the call with P.M  knowledge or consent, the proverbial will really hit the fan.IMO
If the above was found to be the case, you can forget the Thompson case.
All speculation but would make a great chapter in a novel.


----------



## sptrawler

Just thinking further on the same thread. If the guy was a senior advisor, as reported, he would be a goose to make the call without passing it by Julia.
Falling on his sword is probably the only out. But one would think he may have problems on the job market.
Actually if the police get involved and start looking up phone call records( who called who at what time), could be an interesting time.


----------



## joea

Calliope said:


> On top of this, the FWA, which has been doing it's job to keep Gillard in power has reluctantly decided to make a move on the Craig Thomson scandal.




Its interesting that mention of Craig Thompson has hit the news, but not the verdict.
Generally its the other way around I thought!
Be interesting to see the rhetorics when parliament resumes.
joea


----------



## Logique

From Paul Sheehan in the Brisbane Times:
"The image of the self-appointed spokesman for Aborigines, Paul Coe, holding Prime Minister Julia Gillard's shoe and calling for her to 'show an act of good faith' and come to the Aboriginal tent embassy in Canberra and collect it - when exactly the opposite was required - reminded me of the last time I encountered Coe.

It was on the steps of a court. Coe had just been struck from the roll of barristers for professional misconduct.

The NSW Legal Services Tribunal found he had filed an affidavit, that was 'substantially false, was known by him to be false and was sworn with the intention of deceiving the court ... the tribunal has not received from Mr Coe any acknowledgement that he recognises and regrets his wrongdoing ... '"

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opi...enous-cause-20120127-1qkqo.html#ixzz1khGjuwYx


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

moXJO said:


> Get ready for Gillard to get the shove




My contacts in Canberra tell me that there is movement at the station.

Billy Shorten is being anointed this weekend as the next PM. 

gg


----------



## breaker

Gee, roo and goanna must be fattening


----------



## Calliope

breaker said:


> Gee, roo and goanna must be fattening




Especially if it is washed down with endless cartons of taxpayer funded VB.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Just thinking further on the same thread. If the guy was a senior advisor, as reported, he would be a goose to make the call without passing it by Julia.
> Falling on his sword is probably the only out. But one would think he may have problems on the job market.
> Actually if the police get involved and start looking up phone call records( who called who at what time), could be an interesting time.




Nah, she will find him a couchy job some where in the ALP consortium. Probably one of those $150,000 jobs.

He is a 'scap goat' for her witout a doubt.


----------



## todster

breaker said:


> Gee, roo and goanna must be fattening




Your location says it all.


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> Nah, she will find him a couchy job some where in the ALP consortium. Probably one of those $150,000 jobs.
> 
> He is a 'scap goat' for her witout a doubt.




It is obvious that Gillard has several well paid staffers whose main job is to gather dirt on opposition members. They are give the highfalutin title of "press secretaries." Their main job is to gather the dirt and persuade the media to run with it.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> From Paul Sheehan in the Brisbane Times:
> "The image of the self-appointed spokesman for Aborigines, Paul Coe, holding Prime Minister Julia Gillard's shoe and calling for her to 'show an act of good faith' and come to the Aboriginal tent embassy in Canberra and collect it - when exactly the opposite was required - reminded me of the last time I encountered Coe.
> 
> It was on the steps of a court. Coe had just been struck from the roll of barristers for professional misconduct.
> 
> The NSW Legal Services Tribunal found he had filed an affidavit, that was 'substantially false, was known by him to be false and was sworn with the intention of deceiving the court ... the tribunal has not received from Mr Coe any acknowledgement that he recognises and regrets his wrongdoing ... '"
> 
> Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opi...enous-cause-20120127-1qkqo.html#ixzz1khGjuwYx




Thanks Logique

Yes, what scum.
Using his barrister abilities, dishonesty and poor judgement to damage the indigenous people.


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> It is obvious that Gillard has several well paid staffers whose main job is to gather dirt on opposition members. They are give the highfalutin title of "press secretaries." Their main job is to gather the dirt and persuade the media to run with it.




Mmmmmmm Pauline did time beat that.


----------



## Calliope

*The "press secretaries" did their job well spreading lies to the media.*

*'Mr Anderson, tear down this tent!', and other stuff Abbott didn't get around to saying*
BY: CUT&PASTE From: The Australian January 28, 2012 12:00AM

*TONY Abbott on 2UE yesterday:*

I CERTAINLY didn't say (the tent embassy) should be torn down. I think it's most unfortunate that some people verballed me and as a result stirred people up.

*Sky News's Susanne Latimore early on Thursday afternoon*:

A PROTEST by indigenous people who were unhappy about calls by Tony Abbott to close down the Aboriginal tent embassy . . .

*Stirring words. Tent embassy co-founder Michael Anderson on Thursday:*

HE (Abbott) said the Aboriginal embassy had to go, we heard it on a radio broadcast . . . You've got 1000 people here peacefully protesting and to make a statement about tearing down the embassy -- it's just madness on the part of Tony Abbott. What he said amounts to inciting racial riots.

*Ten News on Thursday night:*

THE protest was launched by Aborigines from the nearby Aboriginal tent embassy, sparked by Tony Abbott who said the embassy, now in its 40th year, should be shut down.

*Yahoo! 7 News on Thursday:*

TIME for tent embassy to fold: Abbott.

*Dave Hughes on The Project:*

DRAMATIC scenes for the PM and Tony Abbott today . . . It followed Abbott's suggestion that the embassy should be dismantled.

*Triple M's Grill Team on Twitter yesterday:*

SHOULD the tent embassy be pulled down?

*Christine Milne yesterday:*

MR Abbott's ill-considered remarks demonstrate the need to officially recognise all elements of Australia Day.

*And he was a bastard! Possibly. Jack Waterford in The Canberra Times:*

YET reasonably close behind the PM was Abbott -- at no stage in any appearance of danger. He was grinning, in what some will claim, probably unfairly, was Gillard's discomfort.

*A shover, not a fighter. Triple M's Grill Team on Twitter yesterday:*

TENT embassy's Michael Anderson on Triple M: "I have a distinct feeling that Tony Abbott may have pushed her (PM) down the stairs."


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> Mmmmmmm Pauline did time beat that.




Did Brian Keep his stamps?


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Did Brian Keep his stamps?




Just wondering if the blue rinse set here felt the same way way when Howard and Abbott were playing grubby politics


----------



## drsmith

Another piece of the puzzle ?



> The tent embassy has now revealed the head of Unions ACT, Kim Sattler, was the person who informed the protesters of Mr Abbott's location.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-28/indigenous-activists-name-row-informant/3798228


----------



## breaker

todster said:


> Your location says it all.




I know Redneck ,right?


----------



## drsmith

todster said:


> Just wondering if the blue rinse set here felt the same way way when Howard and Abbott were playing grubby politics



Yes, yes, we all know. It's Tony Abbott's fault.

It's Labor who has been caught red-handed.



> Activists say they did not know Ms Gillard would be at the restaurant with Mr Abbott.



Oops!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-28/indigenous-activists-name-row-informant/3798228


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

todster said:


> Just wondering if the blue rinse set here felt the same way way when Howard and Abbott were playing grubby politics




todster, just admit the ALP appartchiks are grubs over the disrespect to the Emergency Workers getting their medals.

Gillard did.

Just move your lips and type it. 

gg


----------



## Calliope

Ther is little doubt the whole affair was set up by mischief makers Tony Hodges and his confidante, unionist Ms Kim Sattler. Hodges probably thought he was only setting up Abbott to  be waylaid when he left the restaurant.



> One of the founders of the tent embassy, Michael Anderson, said Ms Sattler had spoken to him as well.
> 
> "She came and then she went away and, because I didn't respond, she went to other people," he said.
> 
> "All she said was `*Michael, the prime minister's office would like to talk to you'."*
> 
> Mr Anderson said he believed the protest outside the restaurant on Thursday was a set-up.
> 
> "Someone set us up. They set the prime minister up. They set Abbott up," he said.
> 
> "And they knew that feelings and emotions were running high here and I think they knew that reaction would occur."




http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-revealed-abbott-location-20120128-1qmur.html


----------



## todster

Garpal Gumnut said:


> todster, just admit the ALP appartchiks are grubs over the disrespect to the Emergency Workers getting their medals.
> 
> Gillard did.
> 
> Just move your lips and type it.
> 
> gg




The ALP appartchiks are grubs and so is Tony Abbott


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

todster said:


> The ALP appartchiks are grubs and so is Tony Abbott




Thanks mate,

Here at the RIH, ole Boredrain won the pot of $50, correctly guessing your response.

gg


----------



## todster

drsmith said:


> Yes, yes, we all know. It's Tony Abbott's fault.
> 
> It's Labor who has been caught red-handed.
> 
> 
> Oops!
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-28/indigenous-activists-name-row-informant/3798228




Exzachary


----------



## Calliope

Even Mike Carlton, who is the Fairfax Press chief Abbott hater had to concede;



> And Abbott cannot be blamed for somehow inflaming the mob. His remarks that morning about it being time to move on from the Aboriginal embassy were innocuous enough. Many indigenous leaders think the same thing.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ny-solution-20120127-1qlsb.html#ixzz1kjdsRMWF


----------



## todster

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks mate,
> 
> Here at the RIH, ole Boredrain won the pot of $50, correctly guessing your response.
> 
> gg




$50 there would get you a drink,feed,room and a woman.
OK maybe not a feed.


----------



## drsmith

todster said:


> $50 there would get you a drink,feed,room and a woman.
> OK maybe not a feed.



The following gentleman might be able to assist with the above,

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/member.asp?id=HVZ


----------



## todster

drsmith said:


> The following gentleman might be able to assist with the above,
> 
> http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/member.asp?id=HVZ




Lol


----------



## sptrawler

I love Julias response "honest I knew nothing about it ,also Tony's negative and takes things too far".
Tony's not negative, Tony's positive your camp caused the riot and if anyone went too far it would be your sacked P.R man.
There is nothing wrong with the thickness of her hide.LOL


----------



## sptrawler

I think this riot issue will have a lot further to run.
The more time passes, the more Tony will see leverage.
The problem with ideas blowing up in your face, is the cover up has to be quickly concieved. Then statements are made that can be tested, it should all be fun to watch.


----------



## sptrawler

Can someone remind me when we suggested( I think it was a Shorten quote) that this was going to be the way to sort out Australian wages. Also the guy that was dropped from the reserve bank board, eluded to it. I can't find the posts.
Anyway this is the go.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...s-become-lazy/comments-e6freuy9-1226255776119

The only good thing is the retirees can relax a bit, wages aren't going to keep cranking up and devaluing your savings. hallelujah IMO

I would chase through and find them but my 2gig download cap is running out. LOL


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Can someone remind me when we suggested( I think it was a Shorten quote) that this was going to be the way to sort out Australian wages. Also the guy that was dropped from the reserve bank board, eluded to it. I can't find the posts.



Are you thinking of Warwick McKibbin?   He was dumped because he spoke out where appropriate against the government.  Big loss to the RB board imo.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Are you thinking of Warwick McKibbin?   He was dumped because he spoke out where appropriate against the government.  Big loss to the RB board imo.



Yes Julia, he is the guy, when he was interviewed not long after his dumping he suggested there was a push to import cheap labour for the mine jobs.
Well in my opinion this smacks of paving the way, "you can't say it is o.k to bring in  workers for $hit jobs. But then say it is not o.k to bring in workers for high payed jobs we can't fill"
Bit of labor rope the dope happening, but that's o.k, because if Tony tried to do it the $hit would hit the fan.
The unions would shut the country down, maybe us retirees should say nothing and let nature take its course.
Sounds like a winner to me.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> ... maybe us retirees should say nothing and let nature take its course




It would be a mistake to assume that anything we retirees, or our detractors, say on these pages could in any way influence the body politic. We just preach to the converted.


----------



## Calliope

Whose the liar...Gillard or Sattler?



> But Ms Sattler, a staunch Labor Party supporter and secretary of Unions ACT, said she was "the messenger who is being shot" and that she had only repeated information given to her by Ms Gillard's then press secretary, Tony Hodges.
> "I spoke to Tony Hodges on the phone," Ms Sattler told the Sunday Herald Sun.
> "He mentioned that Tony Abbott had made a statement about the embassy, that it shouldn't exist at all."
> Sattler said: "He (Hodges) said, 'You might want to get someone to respond to that'. He said, 'By the way, he is next door at the Lobby at the function'."
> Ms Gillard yesterday insisted Mr Hodges had not passed on false rumours Mr Abbott wanted the Aboriginal tent embassy torn down.





Read more: http://www.news.com.au/top-stories/...te/story-e6frfkp9-1226256318497#ixzz1kndVwPEF


----------



## noco

Will we have the truth revealed or will there be another cover up by this cheating lying Prime Minister.

She cannot be trusted to tell the truth.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...lieve_gillard_and_did_not_hear_her_say_sorry/


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

An important question that must be asked about the Gillard Government, must be
" Is it fit to lead Australia? "

This last few days peek-a-boo into the inner workings of the Prime Minister's Office would have to beg an answer in the negative.

Would you trust this government with the Defence of Australia?

Would you trust this government with the Education of our Children and youth?

Would you trust this government with the Health of the Nation?

Would you trust this government with ensuring the integrity of our Borders?

Would you trust this government with Taxation and Spending?

Would you trust this government with Infrastructure and Communications?

Would you trust this government with Agriculture, Mining and Development?

Would you trust this government with Caring for the Needy and the Aged?

The answer for me is a resounding NO.

gg


----------



## drsmith

Good heavens GG,

They can't even manage their own mischief out of the PM's office.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> I think this riot issue will have a lot further to run.
> The more time passes, the more Tony will see leverage.
> The problem with ideas blowing up in your face, is the cover up has to be quickly concieved. Then statements are made that can be tested, it should all be fun to watch.




Well it looks as though it is on the move.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/gobetween-backs-pms-version-in-war-of-words-20120129-1qnoq.html


----------



## Logique

The staffers are always going to try it on, it isn't the exclusive preserve of any one party. 

The real story is how the militant wing of the Aboriginal lobby was so easily manipulated, and it confirmed many of my suspicions. Fortunately, there are good people, Noel Pearson and Bess Price to name two, who are starting to look past the dogma of the inner city luvvies, to a better, non-victimized future for Aboriginal people.


----------



## sptrawler

This is an interesting article, wonder where super is going. Wonder what gem labor is going to come up with here. They have upped the pension age to 67, dropped what you can put in. I suppose all that's left is force you to spend it all before you get any pension. Priceless

http://www.smh.com.au/business/pens...super-payees-say-advisers-20120129-1qo27.html


----------



## Calliope

Julia and Tony together yesterday.



> THE Australian Federal Police say there is no evidence a criminal offence occurred in the disclosure of Tony Abbott's whereabouts by one of the Prime Minister's staffers ahead of the Australia Day tent embassy riot.
> 
> The AFP ruling today is a rebuff to the opposition, which has called for a police investigation into the role of Julia Gillard's office in sparking the ugly scenes involving Aboriginal protesters.




Tony Hodges was only doing his job. He was the darling of the press gallery, who depended on him to keep them up-to-date on the "Blame Tony Abbott" dirt file. 

They were so dependent on him that they lapped up with relish his story that Abbott wanted to tear down the black embassy.


----------



## drsmith

If that image is indeed from yesterday, he doesn't look too unhappy about losing his job.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> If that image is indeed from yesterday, he doesn't look too unhappy about losing his job.




The original caption in the SMH said it was yesterday. This has now been changed. Hodges future with the ALP has now been assured. He will go on to bigger and better jobs at taxpayers' expense.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> The original caption in the SMH said it was yesterday. This has now been changed. Hodges future with the ALP has now been assured. He will go on to bigger and better jobs at taxpayers' expense.




Yes Calliope, that is exactly what I stated on my post 2262. 

He is the scape goat and will not be forgotten by dear Juliar.

Just as Harry Jenkins was the sacrificial lamb to save her hide before dumping Andrew Wilkie. She and Albanese planned the whole thing back as far as August 2011.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Yes Calliope, that is exactly what I stated on my post 2262.
> 
> He is the scape goat and will not be forgotten by dear Juliar.
> 
> Just as Harry Jenkins was the sacrificial lamb to save her hide before dumping Andrew Wilkie. She and Albanese planned the whole thing back as far as August 2011.




All made possible by Calliopes local member


----------



## moXJO

todster said:


> All made possible by Calliopes local member




LOL oh the irony.


----------



## Calliope

todster said:


> All made possible by Calliopes local member




Yup. It's all my fault.


----------



## Calliope

The SMH has decided to demonise Gillard. Rudd probably is behind this.



> Poll: Does the involvement of one of Julia Gillard's staffers in the Australia Day protests reflect badly on her?
> 
> Yes;  77%
> 
> No:   23%
> 
> Poll closes in 17 hours.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/embassy-new-blow-to-pms-credibility-20120129-1qo2r.html#ixzz1kvOzxtl2


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> Yup. It's all my fault.




Karma


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> The SMH has decided to demonise Gillard.



Not alltogether,



> *The Australia Day debacle was not of Gillard's making* but is probably more damaging.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...sembles-despondent-troops-20120129-1qo0o.html


----------



## drsmith

> "*I apologise *to Mark McGowan and to his family for that. That should never have happened," he said.




Has Julia Gillard offered Tony Abbott the same courtesy ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-30/premier27s-adviser-resigns-over-leaks/3801016


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> The SMH has decided to demonise Gillard. Rudd probably is behind this.



I find it a bit hard to believe that Mr Rudd's campaigning in Qld for Anna Bligh is anything other than a delicious opportunity to put himself out there in the public eye more and more.

I also find it hard to believe that most people do want Rudd back as PM.  Surely memories can't be that short?   Gillard is awful, but Rudd was way worse imo.

On the current Australia Day fiasco aren't the Libs are in danger of over-politicising what happened?  Certainly there is some murky water around what exactly Mr Hodges said to Ms Sattler.  The latter seems to have changed her story a few times.
But criticism of Ms Gillard in the whole affair seems to me a bit unfair.  I'd have thought it quite reasonable that it took a day to establish who had said what to whom
Hopefully there will be a Federal Police investigation but I don't think the Libs should be quite so 'holier than thou' over this.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> But criticism of Ms Gillard in the whole affair seems to me a bit unfair.



Has Coalition criticism been directly of Ms Gillard or her office ?

This is an important distinction the Coalition needs to make in perusal.


----------



## sptrawler

Funnily enough I think the Australia day incident, is a huge problem.
For an opposition party, in government or not, to purposefully supply erroneous information to incite a mob to riot, is outrageous. 
What if one of the rioters was armed, where do you draw the line?
I saw John Howard being interviewed recently and the question was posed," now you are no longer the Prime Minister do you have AFP security", he dodged the question.
Whether we like it or not there are people who will take a percieved grudge to a whole new level, JFK, John Lennon, some bikie in Adelaide.
For a senior member of a government team to actively incite a radical group and supply them with the information as to the targets whereabouts, it is just outrageous. 
What if Abbott had been assasinated, I know he wasn't, but it wasn't because of safegaurds put in place before the trigger was set.
Maybe I am over reacting, who knows, but it could have ended very badly. Just because it didn't doesn't make it o.k. IMO
It is just another dumb brain snap, looked like a great idea at the time. We have seen a few of these recently.


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Funnily enough I think the Australia day incident, is a huge problem.
> For an opposition party, in government or not, to purposefully supply erroneous information to incite a mob to riot, is outrageous.
> What if one of the rioters was armed, where do you draw the line?
> I saw John Howard being interviewed recently and the question was posed," now you are no longer the Prime Minister do you have AFP security", he dodged the question.
> Whether we like it or not there are people who will take a percieved grudge to a whole new level, JFK, John Lennon, some bikie in Adelaide.
> For a senior member of a government team to actively incite a radical group and supply them with the information as to the targets whereabouts, it is just outrageous.
> What if Abbott had been assasinated, I know he wasn't, but it wasn't because of safegaurds put in place before the trigger was set.
> Maybe I am over reacting, who knows, but it could have ended very badly. Just because it didn't doesn't make it o.k. IMO
> It is just another dumb brain snap, looked like a great idea at the time. We have seen a few of these recently.




Have you been drinking?


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> Have you been drinking?




LOL.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> For a senior member of a government team to actively incite a radical group and supply them with the information as to the targets whereabouts, it is just outrageous.



Much has been made of Mr Abbott's location being disclosed.   Presumably this fuss is in the context of the 'incitement'.   I have heard several times today that he will be speaking at the Press Club.  No one seems to have become distressed about that.



> What if Abbott had been assasinated, I know he wasn't, but it wasn't because of safegaurds put in place before the trigger was set.



The PM could equally have been assassinated if you're going to be dramatic about it.

I do think the whole thing is getting a bit overblown.
A staffer did something very stupid.  The idjits at the tent embassy reacted predictably.  The PM lost a shoe.  The staffer was sacked.  Hopefully the tent people will apologise.  Should then be end of story, shouldn't it?


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> A staffer did something very stupid.  The idjits at the tent embassy reacted predictably.  The PM lost a shoe.  The staffer was sacked.  Hopefully the tent people will apologise.  Should then be end of story, shouldn't it?




What is relevant about the Australia Day Riot is that the "blame Tony Abbott" spin is now in full flight. It illustrates the point that any question asked of him by the Canberra Press Gallery is asked with a forked tongue. No matter how innocuous the answer is, it will be manipulated to give them the answer they tried to trap him into giving. 

Their task is made easier by his tendency to put his foot in his mouth. In this case he avoided that, but that didn't stop the spin doctors.

Could there have been any innocent reason why Tony Hodges should try to bring the protesters and Abbott together so that they could question him on his statement? If it had been made by a Labor politician, nothing more would have come of it.


----------



## joea

Its all happening.
Tony had a media address today.
Well Gillard has babbled, then this was followed by Shorten and this was followed by Cream insinuating that Rudd had no chance as an alternate PM.

Gee you would reckon someone tossed a hornest nest(full of hornets) into the Labor office section.
It the best laugh I have had for some time.

"Labor are s**t scared of ABBOTT and that's obvious.
joea


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> Well Gillard has babbled, then this was followed by Shorten and this was followed by Cream insinuating that Rudd had no chance as an alternate PM.



They know Gillard won't recover from the latest stumble and are now elbowing each other to be the first to run over the top of her political corpse when she finally falls.


----------



## pilots

Just wondering, if Gillard got pregnant, would she blame Tony, and would he say NO,NO,NO.


----------



## todster

pilots said:


> Just wondering, if Gillard got pregnant, would she blame Tony, and would he say NO,NO,NO.




What worries me is who all these muppets here are goin to blame if big ears gets the job


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> What worries me is who all these muppets here are goin to blame if big ears gets the job




I was wondering when someone would ask that.
I'll be the first to pay out on big ears, if he stuffs up. Oh my god did I say that


----------



## sptrawler

Hey todster I'm on your side, I just read this and have seen the light. We are saved, read the last two paragraphs, our future becomes clear. At last policy and direction we can understand.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...re-gillard-style/story-fn7kjcme-1226258828489


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Hey todster I'm on your side, I just read this and have seen the light. We are saved, read the last two paragraphs, our future becomes clear. At last policy and direction we can understand.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/busin...re-gillard-style/story-fn7kjcme-1226258828489




When the Libs get in how long do you think they will blame the ALP for.
This time they could use H&R Block for the figures


----------



## pilots

Calliope said:


> The SMH has decided to demonise Gillard. Rudd probably is behind this.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/embassy-new-blow-to-pms-credibility-20120129-1qo2r.html#ixzz1kvOzxtl2




  Yes, it shows the desperate lengths Labour associates will stoop to.


----------



## Calliope

JULIA Gillard and Tony Abbott are in a neck-and-neck race to claim the title of the most unpopular political leader in the country.


----------



## moXJO

todster said:


> When the Libs get in how long do you think they will blame the ALP for.
> This time they could use H&R Block for the figures




Yeah I'd love to see treasury do the figures on my business.
"Ooops we overestimated your income by $200 billion"


----------



## Logique

_In politics as in life, fruit doesn't fall far from the ministerial tree_ - by Peter Costello - February 1, 2012 - SMH

"...Later it was discovered that prominent among those turning their backs and demonstrating against Nelson were Lachlan Harris and Tim Gleason from the Prime Minister's staff.

Isn't that a coincidence? Different prime minister, different staff, but both engaging in attempts to fan indigenous protest against a Liberal leader..."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...terial-tree-20120131-1qr9y.html#ixzz1l4zMH9Mb


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> _In politics as in life, fruit doesn't fall far from the ministerial tree_ - by Peter Costello - February 1, 2012 - SMH
> 
> "...Later it was discovered that prominent among those turning their backs and demonstrating against Nelson were Lachlan Harris and Tim Gleason from the Prime Minister's staff.
> 
> Isn't that a coincidence? Different prime minister, different staff, but both engaging in attempts to fan indigenous protest against a Liberal leader..."
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...terial-tree-20120131-1qr9y.html#ixzz1l4zMH9Mb




The Gillard government puts a lot of time and effort into trying to discredit Abbott. Not that it matters. His disapproval rating is at record lows, but the proverbial drover's dog could win the next election against Gillard.

Abbott doesn't help the cause by committing monumental stupidities. Yesterday at the Press Club he had the opportunity to back off from his worst blunder, which is to extend middle class benefits in the form of  maternity allowance to well off families who don't need it. Instead, he reaffirmed it, while accusing the Government of wastful spending.

He has certainly earned his high dissatisfaction ratings.


----------



## todster

Garpal Gumnut said:


> My contacts in Canberra tell me that there is movement at the station.
> 
> Billy Shorten is being anointed this weekend as the next PM.
> 
> gg




Any news


----------



## todster

Calliope said:


> The Gillard government puts a lot of time and effort into trying to discredit Abbott. Not that it matters. His disapproval rating is at record lows, but the proverbial drover's dog could win the next election against Gillard.
> 
> Abbott doesn't help the cause by committing monumental stupidities. Yesterday at the Press Club he had the opportunity to back off from his worst blunder, which is to extend middle class benefits in the form of  maternity allowance to well off families who don't need it. Instead, he reaffirmed it, while accusing the Government of wastful spending.
> 
> He has certainly earned his high dissatisfaction ratings.



 Could this mean after the next election we will have the government we deserve?


----------



## Calliope

Rudd confirmed this afternoon that Ms Gillard has his total support. _Deja vu?_



> As is his usual practice, Mr Rudd would not respond directly to questions about his leadership ambitions. This is despite growing speculation that he will challenge Prime Minister Julia Gillard after the Queensland State election on March 24.
> *However he did confirm that Ms Gillard had his full support*





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/prim...ion-the-war-20120201-1qstl.html#ixzz1l6kVO1Cj


----------



## joea

Well I would say the Qld. state election will be the end of Rudd. Following this he will hold his position until the Federal election. No doubt he will win his seat.  But no PM.

Now Kevin probably thinks he can create a miracle in Qld and get Bligh up or save her seat.
Following this election you will be able to watch the recognition of reality, on the faces of the Labor MP's.
Might have to record some of that.
joea


----------



## Eager

Calliope said:


> The Gillard government puts a lot of time and effort into trying to discredit Abbott. Not that it matters. His disapproval rating is at record lows, but the proverbial drover's dog could win the next election against Gillard.
> 
> Abbott doesn't help the cause by committing monumental stupidities. Yesterday at the Press Club he had the opportunity to back off from his worst blunder, which is to extend middle class benefits in the form of  maternity allowance to well off families who don't need it. Instead, he reaffirmed it, while accusing the Government of wastful spending.
> 
> He has certainly earned his high dissatisfaction ratings.



Agree. I acknowledge that Abbott will probably win the next election (if he is still there...) by default, but he didn't do himself any favours yesterday at all. He wasted his time by not setting out what he _will_ do, apart from undoing most of Labor's initiatives, good or bad. His previous (off the cuff?) remarks about still passing on the tax cuts to individuals and businesses from the carbon tax _package_ are now an unexplained mystery. Obviously, firm policy does not have to be made public quite yet, but he had a golden opportunity to give an insight to Liberal initiatives instead of negatives.

Like I said, he will probably win by default.


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> Could this mean after the next election we will have the government we deserve?




What, again!!!!!!!!


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Abbott doesn't help the cause by committing monumental stupidities. Yesterday at the Press Club he had the opportunity to back off from his worst blunder, which is to extend middle class benefits in the form of  maternity allowance to well off families who don't need it. Instead, he reaffirmed it, while accusing the Government of wastful spending.



I'm against means testing in principal as it resullts in punitive EMTR's. To me, it's the quantum that's the problem.

The Opposition lack economic clout, particularly with blockhead as Shadow Treasurer. Malcolm Turnbull would be far better in this role, but as we all know, he's not a team player.


----------



## drsmith

The knives are well and truely out,



> KEVIN RUDD has hit back at accusations by colleagues he is not a team player as close supporters of Julia Gillard concede her grip on the prime ministership is slipping.
> 
> One factional boss, who is loyal to Ms Gillard, said yesterday: ''There's been quite a shift over summer'' and ''she's in trouble''.




and this on the Craig Thompson investigation,



> The government's woes worsened last night when the Seven Network reported email exchanges between the office of the former workplace relations minister, Chris Evans, and Fair Work Australia, concerning the investigation into the NSW MP Craig Thomson.
> 
> The government has rejected claims that it has interfered in the investigation. While the emails do not contradict this, they show Fair Work Australia, a statutory independent body, running past Senator Evans's office a media statement denying allegations Mr Thomson lied to the investigation, sparking a second inquiry.
> 
> Senator Evans's adviser responds: ''Thanks, that's awesome should minimise any run it gets in the morning.''




and, that's from Fairfax.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/pms-hold-on-job-slipping-say-backers-20120201-1qtim.html


----------



## drsmith

Has Gina now purchased the lot ?



> A leadership transition, mishandled, easily has the potential to smash Labor's political and electoral effectiveness for a decade or more. Then again, sitting pat and hoping that something will come along is likely to produce the same result.




http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...gamble-20120201-1qtcb.html?rand=1328099055635


----------



## todster

drsmith said:


> I'm against means testing in principal as it resullts in punitive EMTR's. To me, it's the quantum that's the problem.
> 
> The Opposition lack economic clout, particularly with blockhead as Shadow Treasurer. Malcolm Turnbull would be far better in this role, but as we all know, he's not a team player.




Yep and you and your mates here will be responsible for puttin him in office.
Back into surplus market pumping champagne glasses tinkling good times ahead
Go Australia Go Tony
Hows that for a slogan


----------



## drsmith

todster said:


> Yep and you and your mates here will be responsible for puttin him in office.



More a case of throwing Labor out for many I suspect.

Poor Julia will be choking on her Fairfax in the morning.

Perhaps she won't even bother to look past Aunty as she packs her bags.


----------



## todster

drsmith said:


> More a case of throwing Labor out for many I suspect.
> 
> Poor Julia will be choking on her Fairfax in the morning.
> 
> Perhaps she won't even bother to look past Aunty as she packs her bags.




You get all the news here without ads.
Watch the ABC and read ASF and you get a strange balance,at the same time.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> ..Poor Julia will be choking on her Fairfax in the morning..



With Rudd's chances I'd say it will be about the timing. If closer to the election, he might have a chance, then they'd turf him out afterwards. But if it's next week, then probably Simon Crean, with Shorten being a Jim Hacker or Stephen Bradbury type of candidate.

So the choice for Julia Gillard is quite clear. Stand down now in favour of Simon Crean, or risk an inglorious end closer to the election.


----------



## Julia

If Julia Gillard believes a challenge is definitely on, wouldn't she be better to get on with it now while it seems doubtful that Rudd has the numbers?  If her popularity continues to decrease, more of her supporters will reluctantly swing to Rudd.

She also (and Rudd) will have to be careful not to let chaos erupt close to the Qld election.

The thought of Rudd coming back makes me feel quite ill, especially when so much of Labor in re-electing him is admitting they were wrong to shaft him.  His pomposity and superciliousness will double.


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> With Rudd's chances I'd say it will be about the timing. If closer to the election, he might have a chance, then they'd turf him out afterwards. But if it's next week, then probably Simon Crean, with Shorten being a Jim Hacker or Stephen Bradbury type of candidate.
> 
> So the choice for Julia Gillard is quite clear. Stand down now in favour of Simon Crean, or risk an inglorious end closer to the election.




Hell will freeze over before Julia stands down. In her head, the rest off the country has a problem not her and have you seen her latest pay packet.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> "New business tax arrangements to reward innovation will be the subject of extensive work by the Business Tax Working Group leading to a final report on the future of the business tax system in December," she is expected to say.
> 
> "And through 2012, a new approach to collaborating with industry will be taking shape: through the new portfolio of Industry and Innovation – allied to the structural transition funding in the Clean Energy Future package – and the work of my own manufacturing task force":




I love this latest qoute from Julia, must give a warm feeling to the manufacturing workers who are being laid off at the moment. By the way what is it saying?
Yep we have organised the taxes to shut people down, now we just have to keep talking bull$hit untill someone comes up with an idea to employ people.
I wonder how Conroy is going with his task force to try and identify new jobs the N.B.N will produce, we are all deafened by his silence. Actually I did hear him on t.v yesterday on the Tony is negative chorus. I think everyone is finding that is wearing a bit thin.
What is it that has shut down recently. One Steel and Bluscope furnaces, oil refineries, solar panel manufacturing, mortein factory, car manufacturing wobbly, Colorado clothing, Rio looking at offloading its aluminium smelters. To name a few.
I was wondering does anyone know any of the 'new' Australia clean industries that Julia keeps refering to?
The taxes are in the, jobs are on the way out. Wait for the one speed economy 'slow' IMO
We must have a level playing field, can't have the Aussie battler doing better than the rest of the worlds plebs.LOL


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> If Julia Gillard believes a challenge is definitely on, wouldn't she be better to get on with it now while it seems doubtful that Rudd has the numbers?  If her popularity continues to decrease, more of her supporters will reluctantly swing to Rudd.
> 
> She also (and Rudd) will have to be careful not to let chaos erupt close to the Qld election.
> 
> The thought of Rudd coming back makes me feel quite ill, especially when so much of Labor in re-electing him is admitting they were wrong to shaft him.  His pomposity and superciliousness will double.




Julia
I would think that Kevin will be doing his level best in the Qld. State Election to boost his popularity.
If he can, then we may see the challenge.

When and if there is a challenge, Thompson will probably be gone, Wilkie will withdraw his support, and then another can of worms will be opened with the Independents.

But I certainly agree Australia needs something sorted and quickly!
The Australian economy is being hurt badly!
joea


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> The Opposition lack economic clout, particularly with blockhead as Shadow Treasurer.




Oh I don't think you are being fair with Abbott claiming he will get rid of the great big carbon tax and then claims he will save revenue as a result............funny tax that one eh.  

Just look the other way about the $4 bil hole



> Malcolm Turnbull would be far better in this role, but as we all know, he's not a team player.




You mean he is not extreme right wing...........BTW Gina and Palmer are going to be calling the shots from now on any way.


----------



## drsmith

Better than Bob Brown. :


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Better than Bob Brown. :



+1.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> You mean he is not extreme right wing...........BTW Gina and Palmer are going to be calling the shots from now on any way.




For every action there is a reaction. Sadly as usual the only losers will be the plebs. No pension till 67, extra taxes, job losses.
The saving grace will be they will be breathing cleaner air, give me a break.


----------



## drsmith

.......and that crusty rusted on socialist, Lee Rhiannon.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> The saving grace will be they will be breathing cleaner air, give me a break.



Not much (cough) cleaner.


----------



## noco

So what has FWA got to hide by not making the report public?

I smell a 'rat'. 

FWA are being instructed by Gillard.

Do anything to stay in power.

Maybe the Senate estimates committee may attempt to bring it out into the open.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...y-be-kept-secret/story-e6freonf-1226262178487


----------



## joea

Well I do not know about breathing cleaner air, but something is going on in Canberra.
I was thinking one of the cooks has slipped some "happy weed into the smoko biscuits".
The top "cogs in the wheels" will need a new pair of shoes if they keep the current activity up.
joea


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> So what has FWA got to hide by not making the report public?
> 
> I smell a 'rat'.
> 
> FWA are being instructed by Gillard.
> 
> Do anything to stay in power.
> 
> Maybe the Senate estimates committee may attempt to bring it out into the open.





> THE industrial umpire's final report into federal Labor MP Craig Thomson and the Health Services Union's finances may not be publicly released.



I can't see the Opposition letting FWA/the government get away with keeping the outcome under wraps.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I can't see the Opposition letting FWA/the government get away with keeping the outcome under wraps.




I agree wih you, Julia, the more they try to keep it under wraps the more they become involved.
It all becomes complicated, when you try to manipulate outcomes in a public forum, maybe something reflects badly on FWA. Who knows, why else they would want to suppress outcomes?
It doesn't matter if it reflects badly on the government, they can't look any worse.


----------



## sptrawler

Just wondering, if labor can get two or three through the P.M job before the next election, do they all get the pension on the new pay scale?


----------



## Whiskers

joea said:


> Julia
> I would think that Kevin will be doing his level best in the Qld. State Election to boost his popularity.
> If he can, then we may see the challenge.
> 
> When and if there is a challenge, Thompson will probably be gone, Wilkie will withdraw his support, and then another can of worms will be opened with the Independents.
> 
> But I certainly agree Australia needs something sorted and quickly!
> The Australian economy is being hurt badly!
> joea




Yeah, I reckon he'll wait for the results of the Qld election... then if Bligh gets done, which I think is most likely partly as a backhander for Gillard and the Labor brand, but also for the rushed introduction by Qld Labor and turning a blind eye to longer term problems with fracking for coal seam gas ... then Rudd will weigh up his decision to stir the chook house.

As an aside... if you thought compulsary fluoridation was going to contaminate your water supply, just wait for all this fracking rubbish to infiltrate our rural and domestic water supplies and food chain. 

Both Gillard and Bligh are in far too much financial debt ****, getting all starry eyed with the prospects of the mining boom and gas in particular to pull them out of financial red ink and black popularity polls, that they don't want to see the longer term damage to the rural landscape and water supplies and the contamination that will spoil water supplies, contaminate stock and maybe other foods that find their way onto your dinner plate.


----------



## trainspotter

SHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! it's a secret !

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...y-be-kept-secret/story-e6frfku0-1226262178487


----------



## joea

trainspotter said:


> SHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! it's a secret !
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...y-be-kept-secret/story-e6frfku0-1226262178487




Yeah trainspotter, I have read that and my thoughts are that there is more than meets the eye. Like maybe other Labor people involved.
Maybe we can have an extension to the inguiry to get the truth.
After all it appears to be working in Qld with the dam. of course you have to complete the first one.
joea


----------



## trainspotter

The Labor hypocrites cannot afford to axe Thomson as they require his vote to hold Government. If he is guilty of misappropriation of Union funds it is a sackable offence and there would be a by election which they would lose in a landslide. Ergo no more Gillard Government. Also doesnt help that the inane independents have threatened to drop their support if there is a change in the Labor leadership !! 

*BAH !! HUMBUG !!*


----------



## bellenuit

joea said:


> Yeah trainspotter, I have read that and my thoughts are that there is more than meets the eye. Like maybe other Labor people involved.
> Maybe we can have an extension to the inguiry to get the truth.
> After all it appears to be working in Qld with the dam. of course you have to complete the first one.
> joea




Could keeping the result a secret be a ploy?

Assume for a moment that the inquiry has already concluded there was no wrong doing (not implausible considering it is in their interests to have such an outcome). They keep the results secret knowing that the Libs/Nats will kick up a furore. They respond that there is nothing to hide and Labor claims that the Libs/Nats are just trying to taint the government with innuendo etc. This goes on for a few months, taking the headlines from other issues. FWA relents and releases the results. The government can claim that they were right all along about by the Libs/Nats motives and the Libs/Nats end up with egg on their face.


----------



## banco

bellenuit said:


> Could keeping the result a secret be a ploy?
> 
> Assume for a moment that the inquiry has already concluded there was no wrong doing (not implausible considering it is in their interests to have such an outcome). They keep the results secret knowing that the Libs/Nats will kick up a furore. They respond that there is nothing to hide and Labor claims that the Libs/Nats are just trying to taint the government with innuendo etc. This goes on for a few months, taking the headlines from other issues. FWA relents and releases the results. The government can claim that they were right all along about by the Libs/Nats motives and the Libs/Nats end up with egg on their face.




It would leak for sure if they tried to keep it under wraps.


----------



## Intrinsic Value

Liberal or labor hard to know which one is worse?

If it weren't for the minerals boom Australia would be in same sorry state as most of the rest of the western democracies.

When is either of the parties going to rein all the government handouts that are dragging the economy down.

Family allowances, disability pensions, unemployment benefits, pension beneifts, single mothers benefits etc etc

Soooner or later there needs to be some rationalisation of all these govt handouts. I am not saying there shouldn't be any benefits but the it patently ridiculous now and completely unsustainable.

Who is going to stand up and do something about it?


----------



## Eager

Intrinsic Value said:


> Who is going to stand up and do something about it?



You are, by not accepting your pension when it is due. You won't really need it, so why take it if in fact you are eligible?


----------



## DB008

trainspotter said:


> SHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! it's a secret !
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...y-be-kept-secret/story-e6frfku0-1226262178487





And from the article....


> *Since 2009 *Fair Work Australia (FWA) has been examining allegations of financial irregularities at the union formerly headed by Mr Thomson, now the MP for the NSW seat of Dobell.




2009? WTF......Bushfires and Floods didn't take that long to get investigated.


----------



## JTLP

Just saw some Labor backbencher on TV (pretty chubby bloke) saying that Gillard has lost credibility. They then had an excerpt of Penny Wong saying "Julia Gillard has the full support of the Labor Party. It is Tony Abbott who has lost credibility".

LOL - Tony didn't even make the comment. Labor are literally clutching at straws now


----------



## sptrawler

The S.M.H and the Age seem to be pushing this change of leadership more than the Australian, seems a bit strange.
Also Bob seems to be unusually quiet, maybe feels there is a lot of labor votes to be picked up. 
From the greens position, they have achieved everything they wanted from gillard, time to jump ship.
Well done Bob.
I see Oakeshott and Windsor are flapping around like they've been 'dacked'. 
They should have followed Wilkies lead and put a bit of backfill in the hole they have dug for themselves.
Well done Andrew. hope you got enough distance between yourself and Julia.
I doubt it.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> The S.M.H and the Age seem to be pushing this change of leadership more than the Australian, seems a bit strange.




Not strange at all. Peter Hartcher is the political editor and international editor of The Sydney Morning Herald. He has always been a crony of Rudds. Rudd always planted his anti-Gillard leaks with Hartcher.


----------



## drsmith

Intrinsic Value said:


> *Soooner or later there needs to be some rationalisation of all these govt handouts. *I am not saying there shouldn't be any benefits but the it patently ridiculous now and completely unsustainable.



That comes when the economic crap hits the fan.

Till then, both sides just want to keep the party going.


----------



## noco

Well, the media are in a frenzy, the Labor MP's are running around like chooks with heads chopped off but they keep saying what is the problem? We all love JU-LIAR, even Kevin Rudd loves Julia.Even Bill Shorten says, Julia will remain leader of the Labor Party, Julia will lead the Labor Party to the next election and he(Bill Shorten) does not want to be Prime Minister.

They can't keep her and they can't get rid of her. 

Can't wait for Parliament to start next Tuesday. Who will be the best circus performer?

Gillard
Rudd
Swan
The faceless men.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-in-for-the-chop/story-e6freooo-1226262309080


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> You are, by not accepting your pension when it is due. You won't really need it, so why take it if in fact you are eligible?



I expect Intrinsic Value will be self funded when retirement comes along so will be means tested out of the pension anyway.
How about as an alternative, and just for a little start, the bloody politicians not going for their 30% pay rise?  How utterly insulting to all the people on low incomes trying to budget for such nonsense as the coming carbon tax!



sptrawler said:


> Also Bob seems to be unusually quiet, maybe feels there is a lot of labor votes to be picked up.



Bob Brown knows he needs to say nothing.  There will be many who are disillusioned by Labor and the Independents, yet dislike Tony Abbott, who will drift to the Greens purely by default.  God help us all.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I expect Intrinsic Value will be self funded when retirement comes along so will be means tested out of the pension anyway.
> How about as an alternative, and just for a little start, the bloody politicians not going for their 30% pay rise?  How utterly insulting to all the people on low incomes trying to budget for such nonsense as the coming carbon tax!
> 
> 
> Bob Brown knows he needs to say nothing.  There will be many who are disillusioned by Labor and the Independents, yet dislike Tony Abbott, who will drift to the Greens purely by default.  God help us all.




+1 Yes Julia, but I don't think  God can really.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> You are, by not accepting your pension when it is due. You won't really need it, so why take it if in fact you are eligible?




Well actually Eager, Our system was the U.K system, where everyone who payed taxes through their working life qualified for a basic pension(they had payed for it).
Our governments in their infinite wisdom decided, if you have saved money why should the government give you money.So the means test was introduced, where if you had saved money the pension would be scaled back accordingly.
Now, from what you read in the papers, the next step is to remove the pension untill you have spent your super.
What a joke, we are in great shape says Swan, when the U.K still doesn't means test the pension, Holland doesn't and the pension age in Greece is 55. That's not super age, that's government pension age.
But what do we hear, our economy is the envy of the world. What a joke out pension age is going up to 67 our marginal tax rates are going up, our manufacturing is going down the gurgler. The goon show rolls on.
The sooner these fools go the better.IMO
They seem to be more interested in self preservation, than policy to further the plebs.
What do we call them collateral damage.LOL


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> The S.M.H and the Age seem to be pushing this change of leadership more than the Australian, seems a bit strange.
> Also Bob seems to be unusually quiet, maybe feels there is a lot of labor votes to be picked up.




sptrawler.
Bob Brown dictates to Julia Gillard, and controls the senate.
In the Malaysian deal he is letting Abbott take the heat.
When he does not want his name linked to something, he lets one of his two sidekicks do the "bleeting". When anything "hits the fan", he is always hiding behind the door.

That is why he is quite. Actually he is probably coolly calculating how he can get more mileage from the downfall of seats in the coming elections.
One thing for sure is, he will  have a list of his top 10 moves this year.

After all he hasn't got much else to do, but strengthen his position and cause mischief.
joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> sptrawler.
> Bob Brown dictates to Julia Gillard, and controls the senate.
> In the Malaysian deal he is letting Abbott take the heat.
> When he does not want his name linked to something, he lets one of his two sidekicks do the "bleeting". When anything "hits the fan", he is always hiding behind the door.
> 
> That is why he is quite. Actually he is probably coolly calculating how he can get more mileage from the downfall of seats in the coming elections.
> One thing for sure is, he will  have a list of his top 10 moves this year.
> 
> After all he hasn't got much else to do, but strengthen his position and cause mischief.
> joea




The opinion polls are pointing to the age group 18 -25 who are looking at the Greens. Lets hope they show a bit of sense and delve into their policies and their idiology. I am sure more than half would have no idea.

Yes, you are right. Brown is very quiet ATM. Cunning as a S*^T HOUSE RAT.


----------



## noco

Wayne Swan has been crowing for weeks about how the Labor Government had keep unemployement down to a low of 5.2%. 

But is he telling the TRUTH?

Not according to Roy Morgan who has established a figure closer to 10%.

So, which are the true statistics?

 How are they figured?

 If somebody works say 8 hours in a week, are they classified as being gainfully employed?

One should imagine, to being gainfully employed, 38 hours per week should be the norm.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...l/comments/just_how_high_is_our_unemployment/


----------



## Eager

noco said:


> Wayne Swan has been crowing for weeks about how the Labor Government had keep unemployement down to a low of 5.2%.
> 
> But is he telling the TRUTH?
> 
> Not according to Roy Morgan who has established a figure closer to 10%.
> 
> So, which are the true statistics?
> 
> How are they figured?
> 
> If somebody works say 8 hours in a week, are they classified as being gainfully employed?
> 
> One should imagine, to being gainfully employed, 38 hours per week should be the norm.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...l/comments/just_how_high_is_our_unemployment/



Mischief. 

The criteria for determining whether a person is employed or not has not changed through the ages or through successive governments.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Wayne Swan has been crowing for weeks about how the Labor Government had keep unemployement down to a low of 5.2%.
> 
> But is he telling the TRUTH?
> 
> Not according to Roy Morgan who has established a figure closer to 10%.
> 
> So, which are the true statistics?
> 
> How are they figured?
> 
> If somebody works say 8 hours in a week, are they classified as being gainfully employed?
> 
> One should imagine, to being gainfully employed, 38 hours per week should be the norm.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...l/comments/just_how_high_is_our_unemployment/




Have they changed the way they figure since Howard?


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Have they changed the way they figure since Howard?




Good onya todster, typical reply, blame Howard. Why not blame Tony Abbott.

For gawd sake man, this government has been in power for 4.5 years, so why have they not changed the way it is done.

It is a pity the Labor Party did not follow the way Howard stopped the illegal boat people.

No it suits the Labor Party to follow on this method because it makes them look good. They would not have it any other way. 

I read just recently, not sure on ASF or some where else, if Julia Gillard became pregnant, the Labor Party would blame Tony Abboott.


----------



## todster

noco said:


> Good onya todster, typical reply, blame Howard. Why not blame Tony Abbott.
> 
> For gawd sake man, this government has been in power for 4.5 years, so why have they not changed the way it is done.
> 
> It is a pity the Labor Party did not follow the way Howard stopped the illegal boat people.
> 
> No it suits the Labor Party to follow on this method because it makes them look good. They would not have it any other way.
> 
> I read just recently, not sure on ASF or some where else, if Julia Gillard became pregnant, the Labor Party would blame Tony Abboott.




Well Howard had more than double that time to correct it
You sound like you should lie down for a bit


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> Mischief.
> 
> The criteria for determining whether a person is employed or not has not changed through the ages or through successive governments.



That's as I understand it also.  For the almost 20 years at least that I've been living in Australia the unemployment stats have been arrived at in the same way.

Both sides of the political fence are equally guilty of trying to make those stats look better than they are.


----------



## noco

todster said:


> Well Howard had more than double that time to correct it
> You sound like you should lie down for a bit




Well, Gillard and Swan say they are the champions who get on with governing and getting things done. You know moving forrrrrrrrrward. No carbon tax etc.etc.

Only problem is they always spend three times more than is neccessary and of course they have "TERRIFIC CREDIBILITY". They don't lie and they don't welch on written deals.

That's why they are so popular with 30%. of the primary vote. Need I say anymore my friend.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

My contact in the ALP Caucus in Canberra tells me that Rudd does not have the numbers, but the numbers are being run on some combination of Combet, Shorten and Bowen.

He further says it was like being at a funeral.

When I asked him how he was feeling. He said the whole day "****ted him to tears and he was going for a drink".

So it's all up in the air still.

Roll on next week.

gg

gg


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> Well Howard had more than double that time to correct it
> You sound like you should lie down for a bit




I am pretty sure the criteria for being classed as unemployed is changed often a bit like the criteria for being disabled and the criteria to get a pension. LOL,LOL,coughLOL.
Jeez todster you walked into that one, swallowed my teeth again, laughing that much.
Talking about pensions, funny how labor don't want guys youre age to get one untill your 67.
 Yet the Pollies get the pension when they retire from office and it is completelly tax free and indexed for life, you don't hear them clamping down on that rort.
Nothing like having the moral high ground, hey.


----------



## sptrawler

Love this one. Julia thinks the problem is she doesn't have an upper class accent.
Jeez talk about missing the point.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...s-crisis-meeting/story-fn7x8me2-1226263221969

Maybe the people are sick of stupid government blowing $#!t loads of money, giving themselves pay rises, while upping the pension age(but not for them) increasing marginal tax rates. Introducing new taxes, reducing tax rebates to workers who live in god forsaken places and work 60hr weeks but are classed as 'fat cats'. 
Then they sit back and say "we care about ordinary Australians" well I can tell them, from talking to ordinary Australians, they don't believe you.
The ordinary Australians that they are appealing to make up about 5% of the population, they can be reved up. But the majority of hard working Australians have had a gut full.


----------



## wayneL

sptrawler said:


> Love this one. Julia thinks the problem is she doesn't have an upper class accent.
> Jeez talk about missing the point.
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...s-crisis-meeting/story-fn7x8me2-1226263221969




Her accent is awful though innit. 

But you'd have to go right back to that dreaded Fabian impostor Malcom F to find a toff accent. I'd argue that a toff accent would work against a Oz politician far more than Julia's diabolical strine anyway.



> Maybe the people are sick of stupid government blowing $#!t loads of money, giving themselves pay rises, while upping the pension age(but not for them) increasing marginal tax rates. Introducing new taxes, reducing tax rebates to workers who live in god forsaken places and work 60hr weeks but are classed as 'fat cats'.
> Then they sit back and say "we care about ordinary Australians" well I can tell them, from talking to ordinary Australians, they don't believe you.
> The ordinary Australians that they are appealing to make up about 5% of the population, they can be reved up. But the majority of hard working Australians have had a gut full.




Well yes. That is more to the point.


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> Love this one. Julia thinks the problem is she doesn't have an upper class accent..http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...s-crisis-meeting/story-fn7x8me2-1226263221969..



She sounds like Marcia Langton or Bob Hawke. In Labor Party terms, that is proletariat upper class, and has helped her career.


----------



## joea

It is interesting when you read voters comments related to news articles associated with Gillard and Labor.
Then you check the polls the voters complete in the Australian, then compare these to the latest poll that says Gillard approval as PM has increased 4%.
They just do not add up.
Now that she is attacking the Australian people, I think she is getting more arrogant or desperate. It almost appears that she believes she is "insulated" from bad polls, but will accept any positives of a swing her way.
Anyway the combination of polls and comments do not add up!!!

Of course they do if the polls are compiled from selective areas or seats.
joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> It is interesting when you read voters comments related to news articles associated with Gillard and Labor.
> Then you check the polls the voters complete in the Australian, then compare these to the latest poll that says Gillard approval as PM has increased 4%.
> They just do not add up.
> Now that she is attacking the Australian people, I think she is getting more arrogant or desperate. It almost appears that she believes she is "insulated" from bad polls, but will accept any positives of a swing her way.
> Anyway the combination of polls and comments do not add up!!!
> 
> Of course they do if the polls are compiled from selective areas or seats.
> joea




Yes Joe I agree. As you say the poll could be taken in a selective area. Maybe, News Poll want to keep Gillard in the chair for a while longer.

Give her enough rope to 'hang' herself.


----------



## noco

noco said:


> Yes Joe I agree. As you say the poll could be taken in a selective area. Maybe, News Poll want to keep Gillard in the chair for a while longer.
> 
> Give her enough rope to 'hang' herself.




Correction : It was Fairfax/ Nielsen poll and not News poll.


----------



## Knobby22

There are a few reasons I can think of as to why Labors polling has risen, but the one that seems most pertinanct is Gina Reinhardt. She has scared the horses a bit and under Howard you know she would be nullified but people aren't so sure under Abbott.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Knobby22 said:


> There are a few reasons I can think of as to why Labors polling has risen, but the one that seems most pertinanct is Gina Reinhardt. She has scared the horses a bit and under Howard you know she would be nullified but people aren't so sure under Abbott.



Maybe because he is a Howard reincarnate.


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> There are a few reasons I can think of as to why Labors polling has risen, but the one that seems most pertinanct is Gina Reinhardt. She has scared the horses a bit and under Howard you know she would be nullified but people aren't so sure under Abbott.



Goodness, Gina hadn't occurred to me as a reason for the improved polling.   I'm not sure that your average Australian poll-responder is going to be thinking too much about Ms Rinehardt's business moves.  

Maybe you're right.  I'm struggling to understand the improvement for Labor and Gillard in particular in the fact of the Australia Day fiasco and all the Rudd rumours swirling about.

Could it be a horror at the idea of Our Kev actually coming back?  That the voter remembers all too well how ghastly he was and is prepared to give Ms Gillard a boost because she's the lesser of the two evils?

I don't know, but it's a significant lift for the government and will no doubt cheer them.  

There was a fairly sickening Dorothy Dix type interview on Radio National's Breakfast this morning with Fran Kelly asking two back benchers how they felt about Ms Gillard.
About ten minutes of free praise for Ms Gillard courtesy the ABC.


----------



## sptrawler

One has to question the accuracy of these polls, if you read the spot polls conducted by the papers.
I don't know how reliable these are either but it looks bad for labor.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...s-crisis-meeting/story-fn7x8me2-1226263221969

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/

In the telegraph, they ask can Julia save labor at the next election. The S.M.H and A.B.C might think so but there appears to be a lot who don't agree.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Could it be a horror at the idea of Our Kev actually coming back?  That the voter remembers all too well how ghastly he was and is prepared to give Ms Gillard a boost because she's the lesser of the two evils?
> 
> I don't know, but it's a significant lift for the government and will no doubt cheer them.
> 
> .




I agree, Kev coming back is a real negative and would have helped her personal approval. I thought of that as one of the reasons also.

The other third reason is Abbott's continuing poor performance but you are right, I thought that the staffer issue on Australia Day would have been a big negative but maybe most people only saw the pictures and didn't follow the issues. 
It doesn't look good having Gillard dragged along with Abbott smiling in the background. 

I was at the cricket last night and someone mentioned Gina which surprised me because politics is not discussed. I have read that she will probably be the richest person in the world one day and some of the things she wants are quite wrong such as a northern economic zone with special low taxation and with all the protections removed including wildlife legislation. I find her scary.


----------



## joea

Knobby22 said:


> I have read that she will probably be the richest person in the world one day and some of the things she wants are quite wrong such as a northern economic zone with special low taxation and with all the protections removed including wildlife legislation. I find her scary.




Knobby22.
"Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see."
Associated with any person of wealth and power, there is a bank of people who attempt to load the chamber of the gun. These people thrive on the fact that Gina may ask them for their opinion.
Look at the media's reaction to Gina buying a few shares. Read the reaction of Bob Brown and Stephen Conroy to the share purchase.
I can also assure you that if you or I made the same purchase, it would not even make the paper.
You would have see the comment of Clive Palmer. He suggests he would purchase twice the percentage of Gina. Its all happening with people getting attention to boost their ego's.
The media have not much to write about at the moment.
joea


----------



## trainspotter

Harvey Norman is doing well out of me .... I was listening to the radio in my shed and the news came on. Julia Gillard was giving a "speech" to the media scrum ........ Fair Dinkum !!! If I heard the words "HARD WORK" come out of her mouth one more time I would have burst a vessel. Instead I picked up the radio and smashed it.

1) The country is doing so well because of her Governments "HARD WORK"
2) The "HARD WORK" is not over yet and more needs to be done.
3) Due to her "HARD WORK" in the Senate we have a stable governement.
4) It will only be "HARD WORK" for her to win the next election.
5) *SMASH RADIO*

SHEEEEEEESHHHH !!! Hard work listening the b!tch I reckon !!!


----------



## Eager

sptrawler said:


> One has to question the accuracy of these polls, if you read the spot polls conducted by the papers.



Be fair. Just because you don't like the results of a poll doesn't mean it is inaccurate, either way.


----------



## Eager

joea said:


> The media have not much to write about at the moment.
> joea



I ask, genuinely - do you think the negative focus on Gillard is losing its effect, maybe it reached a saturation point but is now yesterdays news? Her tactics of hanging tough and not digging herself into any holes regarding a possible challenge from Rudd might explain the slight increase in the polls.


----------



## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> There are a few reasons I can think of as to why Labors polling has risen, but the one that seems most pertinanct is Gina Reinhardt. She has scared the horses a bit and under Howard you know she would be nullified but people aren't so sure under Abbott.




Gina will be a problem for any future government that she cannot buy.

WA I believe gave the biggest donation to the federal party (wonder where that came from)hence Julie B remains 2nd in command for as long as she wants.  

Either way Gina will own Abbott.

Gina is really a a great Aussie except for a few minor details like cheap Asia labor is at the top of her agenda screw the Aussie work force max out profits etc   then there is the way she treats her kids.


----------



## drsmith

Can Rob Oakeshott see the writing on the wall ?



> KEY independent Rob Oakeshott says he's been approached by Kevin Rudd supporters about his attitude to a possible leadership challenge to Julia Gillard.
> 
> However he said he would be “thoroughly unimpressed” should a “self-obsessed” Labor seek to change leaders.




Not as unimpressed as Andrew Wilkie over his pokie reforms me thinks.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-rudd-supporters/story-fn59niix-1226263996602

Also from the article above,



> “Yeah, at different times,” Mr Oakeshott told Sky News, when asked if he had been approached by the Rudd camp.




Those "different times" are all since September last year,



> Mr Oakeshott said he had not received any telephone calls from Kevin Rudd or Labor “Praetorian guards” on the leadership issue.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...loses-supporters/story-fn59niix-1226143719240


----------



## JTLP

drsmith said:


> Can Rob Oakeshott see the writing on the wall ?
> 
> 
> 
> Not as unimpressed as Andrew Wilkie over his pokie reforms me thinks.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-rudd-supporters/story-fn59niix-1226263996602
> 
> Also from the article above,
> 
> 
> 
> Those "different times" are all since September last year,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...loses-supporters/story-fn59niix-1226143719240




Oakeshott unimpressed with a self-obsessed Labor? I must be seeing stars. The guy has to be one of the greatest pompous/self-absorbed idiots of all time. Bring on the election :freak3::freak3::freak3::freak3:


----------



## drsmith

JTLP said:


> Oakeshott unimpressed with a self-obsessed Labor? I must be seeing stars. The guy has to be one of the greatest pompous/self-absorbed idiots of all time. Bring on the election :freak3::freak3::freak3::freak3:



Andrew Wilkie is not far behind,



> Along with the sole Greens lower house MP, Adam Bandt, the government is banking on the support of independents Andrew Wilkie and Rob Oakeshott in the House of Representatives to pass the PHI changes, which are expected to save $100 billion by 2050.
> 
> Both are inclined to back means-testing the rebate for individuals earning more than $80,000 and families earning more than $160,000 - with some caveats.
> 
> Mr Wilkie told AAP on Friday he wanted to examine new evidence on the likely impact of the changes before being able to confirm his support.



For Andrew Wilkie, his pokies reforms clearly was not one of those caveats.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...alth-changes-will-pass-pm-20120206-1r1hw.html


----------



## Knobby22

IFocus said:


> Gina is really a a great Aussie except for a few minor details like cheap Asia labor is at the top of her agenda screw the Aussie work force max out profits etc   then there is the way she treats her kids.




I forgot about that. She wants to bring in a slave class so she can mine cheaper and make even more money. Such greed and lack of thought for her fellow Australians.

I saw a cartoon last week that said it all.
It shows a rich businessman looking out over his dominions with his son next to him and saying , "Someday son this won't be enough for you either".


----------



## trainspotter

Errrrrrmmmmmmmm ...... the amount she pays in Royalties and Taxes both State and Federally is enough to keep a certain Banana Republic afloat.


----------



## Julia

trainspotter said:


> Harvey Norman is doing well out of me .... I was listening to the radio in my shed and the news came on. Julia Gillard was giving a "speech" to the media scrum ........ Fair Dinkum !!! If I heard the words "HARD WORK" come out of her mouth one more time I would have burst a vessel. Instead I picked up the radio and smashed it.
> 
> 1) The country is doing so well because of her Governments "HARD WORK"
> 2) The "HARD WORK" is not over yet and more needs to be done.
> 3) Due to her "HARD WORK" in the Senate we have a stable governement.
> 4) It will only be "HARD WORK" for her to win the next election.
> 5) *SMASH RADIO*
> 
> SHEEEEEEESHHHH !!! Hard work listening the b!tch I reckon !!!



Grr!  I felt exactly the same.  
Why on earth doesn't she actually listen to a recording of herself and realise how awful it sounds.  I am totally sick of all the members of the government talking about all this "hard work" they are doing.  As though we should be grateful, despite all their stuff ups.




Eager said:


> I ask, genuinely - do you think the negative focus on Gillard is losing its effect, maybe it reached a saturation point but is now yesterdays news? Her tactics of hanging tough and not digging herself into any holes regarding a possible challenge from Rudd might explain the slight increase in the polls.



Good suggestion, Eager.  That plus the fact that Rudd simply doesn't have the numbers should mean everything settles down because neither side has anything to gain by bringing on a challenge.




IFocus said:


> then there is the way she treats her kids.



Are you really in a position to understand all of the situation regarding Ms Reinhardt's family?   You don't know whether or not she may have good reason for her actions re her children.  I don't know, and don't really care either way.  I don't think it's any of the business of the Australian public.
I wouldn't like my personal family tribulations plastered all over the media.




JTLP said:


> Oakeshott unimpressed with a self-obsessed Labor? I must be seeing stars. The guy has to be one of the greatest pompous/self-absorbed idiots of all time. Bring on the election :freak3::freak3::freak3::freak3:



+100.


----------



## todster

trainspotter said:


> Errrrrrmmmmmmmm ...... the amount she pays in Royalties and Taxes both State and Federally is enough to keep a certain Banana Republic afloat.




Why couldn't she be hot aswell.


----------



## drsmith

Tony Windsor has now chipped in on Gillard's leadership,



> Windsor doubts Gillard will be dumped




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8414891/windsor-doubts-gillard-will-be-dumped 

Like Rob Oakeshott, his confidence however does not extend beyond having one each way,



> "If there was a change in leadership I would have to look at those circumstances at the time.


----------



## drsmith

When did Rudd supporters canvass Rob Oakeshott about change ?



drsmith said:


> Those "different times" are all since September last year,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Oakeshott said he had not received any telephone calls from Kevin Rudd or Labor “Praetorian guards” on the leadership issue."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...loses-supporters/story-fn59niix-1226143719240
Click to expand...



Since September last year, but not recently ??



> Mr Oakeshott, one of three independent MPs who agreed to back Labor under Ms Gillard after the 2010 election produced a hung parliament, said yesterday that Rudd supporters had canvassed him about change "in very general terms", although not recently.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...eadership-change/story-fn59niix-1226264184298


----------



## joea

When we were very young we were told not to lie to our parents.
At school the same instructions were given.
In religion "Though shalt not lie" is one of the 10 commandments.

So my question is, did Gillard have selective hearing when she was young.

In politics she started off with a white lie, then it continued until it became intensive lying. It has spread through the Labor organization to such an extent the whole country has accepted it as a "blood sport". i.e. Wivenhoe operation and inquiry.
In all fairness most politicians "twist the truth" a little. but not to the extent of Juliar.
The following attachment sums up Gillard. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ault-but-her-own/story-fnahw9xv-1226264121525

The quicker we see Rudd and Gillard out of National politics the better.

joea


----------



## todster

joea said:


> When we were very young we were told not to lie to our parents.
> At school the same instructions were given.
> In religion "Though shalt not lie" is one of the 10 commandments.
> 
> So my question is, did Gillard have selective hearing when she was young.
> 
> In politics she started off with a white lie, then it continued until it became intensive lying. It has spread through the Labor organization to such an extent the whole country has accepted it as a "blood sport". i.e. Wivenhoe operation and inquiry.
> In all fairness most politicians "twist the truth" a little. but not to the extent of Juliar.
> The following attachment sums up Gillard.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ault-but-her-own/story-fnahw9xv-1226264121525
> 
> The quicker we see Rudd and Gillard out of National politics the better.
> 
> joea




I will tell you what i find funny is as bad as she is she is more popular than The best the libs can come up with.


----------



## Logique

todster said:


> Why couldn't she be hot aswell.



Bob Brown will be after you, he frowns on this sort of comment.


----------



## moXJO

todster said:


> I will tell you what i find funny is as bad as she is she is more popular than The best the libs can come up with.




And yet libs would be swept into office if an election was held. I don't like Abbott’s policies at all, but labor is just a disaster zone at the moment. And given how much they have bashed small business and IR laws I wouldn’t vote for them again for another decade. 
Currently I prefer Gillard over Rudd, not a great win considering how badly both have performed. Bring on an election


----------



## todster

Logique said:


> Bob Brown will be after you, he frowns on this sort of comment.




Bangin on my front door in some village people outfit would be frightening.
Screaming you can stop the sexism


----------



## joea

todster said:


> I will tell you what i find funny is as bad as she is she is more popular than The best the libs can come up with.




Yes you are entitled to your opinion.
I will accept the verdict of the voters. lol
If the Libs. get in they will operate as a party team, not as a "punch and judy" show.
(i hope). 

From one of the posts  below, I will agree Gillard has got to be better PM than Rudd,
but she has committed many more sins.
(in the Catholic religion there are two sins, venial(little) and mortal(big). For Gillard we need another category
joea


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> Good suggestion, Eager.



Ta.


Julia said:


> That plus the fact that Rudd simply doesn't have the numbers should mean everything settles down because neither side has anything to gain by bringing on a challenge.



It's similar to the feelings that I had in the U.S. Crash thread where I stated that I was firmly in the 'recovery' camp. People WILL forget how bad things got over there; it is human nature to look forward. Similarly here, some people WILL forget some of the things that upset them with Labor/Gillard over the journey and live by the adage Better The Devil You Know etc. The election is a looooong way away yet. I'm not pretending that Labor will win, but IF the seas are COMPARITIVELY smooth between now and then, politically settling down if you like, the result MIGHT be close.

Politics aside, on the specific point of Gillard hanging tough, I think it has worked very well for her - does anyone else have an opinion?


----------



## noco

I watched with intent interest question time in Parliament this afternnon with the first hour taken up by Gillard on the passing of Sir Selwyn Cowan and some journalist. I waited for queation and I waited and I waited with baited breath.

I could have thrown up my lunch listening to her wasting question time with her long spiel and finally turned off.

According to Andrew Bolt she closed down question earlier than normal.

Of what was she so afraid?

http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/no_questions_please/


----------



## Calliope

Gillard can forget about a Rudd challenge. Today in question time the opposition treated him as a figure of fun, and not to be taken seriously. He had a crazy look. With his ego exposed he has become a joke.

Murdoch hit the nail on the head when he said Rudd is "delusional."


----------



## Eager

noco said:


> I watched with intent interest question time in Parliament this afternnon with the first hour taken up by Gillard on the passing of Sir Selwyn Cowan and some journalist. I waited for queation and I waited and I waited with baited breath.
> 
> I could have thrown up my lunch listening to her wasting question time with her long spiel and finally turned off.
> 
> According to Andrew Bolt she closed down question earlier than normal.
> 
> Of what was she so afraid?



But that is *politics. *The ruling party gets to do that.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> But that is *politics. *The ruling party gets to do that.




Isn't that ruling parties, julia, bob and three dicks.
Someone would wish.


----------



## JTLP

drsmith said:


> Tony Windsor has now chipped in on Gillard's leadership,
> 
> 
> 
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8414891/windsor-doubts-gillard-will-be-dumped
> 
> Like Rob Oakeshott, his confidence however does not extend beyond having one each way,




Literally hanging by a thread...all of them. As if they would turf Labor for 'values and virtue'. That was lost a long long time ago...


----------



## todster

The trick is come election time to be in a position where it doesn't really effect you.
If your in a position where a change in government will really improve your lifestyle get off your rs and start making a noise"......not here
This place is just a liberal love in.


----------



## Eager

sptrawler said:


> Isn't that ruling parties, julia, bob and three dicks.
> Someone would wish.



Correct, but the three dicks were there to be woo'd after the election. And your mob couldn't.


----------



## sptrawler

The economical implosion will continue as the manufacturing sector readjust to expensive electricity.
Oakeshott and Windsor will start, or should I say, continue to see the EXIT sign looming large and will do a Wilkie, to try and save their pensions.LOL, LOL, LOL
If I was them I would get my skates on.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> Correct, but the three dicks were there to be woo'd after the election. And your mob couldn't.




Yes and it will cost them their seats, therefore they deserve to go down with the 'Good ship Bob and Julia'.
I don't think there is any point in opinion polls, if you look at any newspaper spot poll. This government is hated, no matter what they do it is seen as capitulating to the minorities.
I saw in the paper today, Bob said same sex marriage will be in by the end of the year and everybody says Rudd is undermining. LOL


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> It's similar to the feelings that I had in the U.S. Crash thread where I stated that I was firmly in the 'recovery' camp. People WILL forget how bad things got over there; it is human nature to look forward. Similarly here, some people WILL forget some of the things that upset them with Labor/Gillard over the journey and live by the adage Better The Devil You Know etc.



I don't see that as an appropriate analogy at all.  How can anyone 'forget' that the US is so massively in debt with no way out except to continue printing money, something the Democrats seem disposed to keep doing.
I haven't read your posts about a US recovery and don't want to divert this thread with focusing on that.

If you really think people are going to just forget about the broken promises, viz the carbon tax most particularly, and then the way she just walked away from her promise to Wilkie once she'd finished making use of him, you're delusional, Eager.
Or overcome by wishful thinking.

"Better the devil you know"?   I doubt it.  You seem to be seriously underestimating the trouble the government is in with the electorate.



> Politics aside, on the specific point of Gillard hanging tough, I think it has worked very well for her - does anyone else have an opinion?



 Essentially agree.  She's in a position to appear to be hanging tough as you put it, simply because Rudd doesn't have the numbers.  Therefore no particular credit to her, rather she's the beneficiary of the distaste much of the caucus and the electorate rightly has for Rudd.   It does not, imo, make her a successful Prime Minister.



Eager said:


> Correct, but the three dicks were there to be woo'd after the election. And your mob couldn't.



 Oh dear, how you are totally ignoring the virulent history all three had with the National Party.  It was their moment in the sun, the wonderful opportunity they had to take revenge on the Nationals for their grievances.  It wouldn't have mattered if Tony Abbott had been the Archangel Gabriel or Jesus Christ himself, or if either of these had offered them the world on a plate, they were never, ever going to miss their chance of revenge.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> Ta.
> Politics aside, on the specific point of Gillard hanging tough, I think it has worked very well for her - does anyone else have an opinion?




I think one thing Julia has achieved is to cement voters preferences. It may be a looooooong time till the next election.
However I feel 90% of voters have made up their minds already. It is now just a waiting game and to see how many more stuff ups happen.


----------



## Logique

http://australianpolitics.com/parties/alp/chifley-light-on-the-hill-speech
“The Light On The Hill” – Speech by Ben Chifley
Prime Minister Ben Chifley delivered this speech to an ALP Conference in 1949.

"..I try to think of the Labour movement, not as putting an extra sixpence into somebody’s pocket, or making somebody Prime Minister or Premier, but as a movement bringing something better to the people, better standards of living, greater happiness to the mass of the people. We have a great objective – the light on the hill – which we aim to reach by working the betterment of mankind not only here but anywhere we may give a helping hand. If it were not for that, the Labour movement would not be worth fighting for.." 

Whether the Rudd/Gillard/Brown govt has delivered "something better to the people, better standards of living, greater happiness to the mass of the people" will be evaluated by voters at the polling booths in 2012 or 2013.

Whether a straight-talking 'bushy', a train driver and son of a blacksmith, would have a career future in the ALP of 2012 is open to conjecture.  Frankly, I don't think the party represents that demographic any more.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> However I feel 90% of voters have made up their minds already. It is now just a waiting game and to see how many more stuff ups happen.




This is correct! However I ask how much more damage can the Australian economy
handle.?
According to the RBA it is business as usual.
According to Gillard she is now looking at "the loooong term". Well what was she looking at before. Apparently the voters and the media are the problem, but not her.
According to Swan the banks are the problem, and now he has the audacity to say he was not "bashing " the banks.
According to  Shorten the banks have to react to the  "long term" in relation to moving jobs overseas. Oops have I heard that term before somewhere.

Well IMO the way Labor is going now, all the MP's surrounding Gillard will end up loved by the voters as much as her. (if that has not already happened)

In the meantime Australia continues to "smolders", before it crashes and burns.

Personally if I was Abbott I would be indicating that the coalition need to look at the books before they make any defined statements on the economy. It will be only then that they could comment on a surplus. It will not be in the first term.(if  or when they have a term)

In relation to Chifley's speech, we have a light. "Its Gillard new hair cut and color".
joea


----------



## todster

joea said:


> Yes you are entitled to your opinion.
> I will accept the verdict of the voters. lol
> If the Libs. get in they will operate as a party team, not as a "punch and judy" show.
> (i hope).
> 
> From one of the posts  below, I will agree Gillard has got to be better PM than Rudd,
> but she has committed many more sins.
> (in the Catholic religion there are two sins, venial(little) and mortal(big). For Gillard we need another category
> joea




If they could operate as a team it might help if they can stop the redneck nationals going independent.
Just think you might be in power now


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> I don't see that as an appropriate analogy at all.  How can anyone 'forget' that the US is so massively in debt with no way out except to continue printing money, something the Democrats seem disposed to keep doing.



The same way that everyone has forgotten about the death of Kim Jong-il in North Korea and the global uncertainty of What Would Happen Next.

Yesterday's news.


----------



## wayneL

Eager said:


> The same way that everyone has forgotten about the death of Kim Jong-il in North Korea and the global uncertainty of What Would Happen Next.
> 
> Yesterday's news.




Yep

Just like yesterday's fish and chips... likely to show up again at any time.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia on T.V having a beer tonight, I think I am going to be sick. Obviously Bob's pep talk at the BBQ struck a note.
By the way Todster, cant retire till 67 and your healthcares going up, you fat cat.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Julia on T.V having a beer tonight, I think I am going to be sick.



I can understand your nausea.  No credit to Chris Urhlman for allowing Ms Gillard to talk over him and essentially take charge of the interview.


----------



## Samson 9

I don't like violence myself but would like your opinion if the statistics here are more valid then the run of the mill opinion polls.
On that website Gillard is 10 times more popular then Abbott. I wonder why?

Gillard 5,257,985 to Abbott's 506,984. 

http://www.slapapollie.com

I only scored 582 Meters - but won't tell you on which one. 

Sam


----------



## todster

sptrawler said:


> Julia on T.V having a beer tonight, I think I am going to be sick. Obviously Bob's pep talk at the BBQ struck a note.
> By the way Todster, cant retire till 67 and your healthcares going up, you fat cat.



 Hahaha ditch healthcare.


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> Hahaha ditch healthcare.




Yes that's exactly what my mate, who works for the local council(junk collection) said.
Another shot myself in the foot moment by Julia. LOL,LOL,LOL
Talk about being out of touch, thick as two short planks. Jeez they crack me up.
The only ones besotted by the goon show is the greens.

By the way, "ditch health care" isn't the answer they wanted.
Another stuff up.LOL,LOL,LOL.


----------



## sptrawler

To put it in simple terms, $80k is where the labor party thinks you are well off.
Most retirement advisors say you need* $50k *for a comfortable retirement,if you own your own home(I agree with that).
On $80,000 you pay $17,550 tax, so that gives you $62,500 take home. 
Now take out your rent or home loan repayments i.e rent say $400/wk or home loan of say $400k approx $600/wk.

That means the renter pays approx $20,000 rent leaving him/her with *$42,000 *or $800/wk for food, fuel, electricity. insurance, car payments, repairs. Yes a real "fat cat"
The home buyer is worse off, $62,000 less $30,000 payments, that means $32,000 to live on. I don't see that as a "fat cat".

Like I have said on numerous occasions, the problem with labor members, is they have never lived the hard life. Lots of them have stood on the heads of members to get where they are.
May sound harsh, but I don't see them saying tax my pension, I'm doing o.k
No you won't see many jumping up for that one, on either side of politics.

That is the problem when you have chardonnay socialists running the show, they think they represent the worker, but they don't even know a worker!!!!!!!


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> ..That is the problem when you have chardonnay socialists running the show, they think they represent the worker, but they don't even know a worker!!!!!!!



Until election time, then it's look.. 'I'm drinking a beer, I'm just like you'. The ALP plays blue collar workers off a break. 

I'd say the scare campaign about workchoices is being filmed as we speak. Ironically it's Labor's union boosting Fair Work Act that will put people out of jobs.


----------



## noco

Our leading lady has now placed a zip on the lips of all Labor MP's.

What next???? Geez, she must be running very scared.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...eak-as-one-voice/story-e6freonf-1226267668546


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Logique said:


> http://australianpolitics.com/parties/alp/chifley-light-on-the-hill-speech
> “The Light On The Hill” – Speech by Ben Chifley
> Prime Minister Ben Chifley delivered this speech to an ALP Conference in 1949.
> 
> "..I try to think of the Labour movement, not as putting an extra sixpence into somebody’s pocket, or making somebody Prime Minister or Premier, but as a movement bringing something better to the people, better standards of living, greater happiness to the mass of the people. We have a great objective – the light on the hill – which we aim to reach by working the betterment of mankind not only here but anywhere we may give a helping hand. If it were not for that, the Labour movement would not be worth fighting for.."
> 
> Whether the Rudd/Gillard/Brown govt has delivered "something better to the people, better standards of living, greater happiness to the mass of the people" will be evaluated by voters at the polling booths in 2012 or 2013.
> 
> Whether a straight-talking 'bushy', a train driver and son of a blacksmith, would have a career future in the ALP of 2012 is open to conjecture.  Frankly, I don't think the party represents that demographic any more.




Unfortunately for the ALP, the original brave men and women who toiled for the workers would not recognise the shambolic chardonnay bourgeois of the present ALP who rule from safe public service and union positions now at the expense of the workers.

The light on the hill is stuck far up somewhere , where the sun don't never shine.

gg


----------



## wayneL

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unfortunately for the ALP, the original brave men and women who toiled for the workers would not recognise the shambolic chardonnay bourgeois of the present ALP who rule from safe public service and union positions now at the expense of the workers.
> 
> The light on the hill is stuck far up somewhere , where the sun don't never shine.
> 
> gg




Good post GG.

The Labour movement once had noble ideals and goals.

WTF happened to them?


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Our leading lady has now placed a zip on the lips of all Labor MP's.
> 
> What next???? Geez, she must be running very scared.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...eak-as-one-voice/story-e6freonf-1226267668546




Yes that a real vote of confidence in her nearest and most trusted.
I think not.


----------



## noco

Well, I guess while the fire between Gillard and Rudd continues on a daily basis, we get a break from all the other stuff ups viz the boat people, the carbon tax, the NBN, roof insulation, school halls, lap tops for all high school kids etc.etc.etc.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ru...are-for-showdown/story-fn6b3v4f-1226214355055


----------



## drsmith

Poor Barry Cassidy struggles to come to terms with the fact that Julia Gillard is a hopeless PM and is only motivated by what keeps her and Labor in office for an extra 5 minutes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-10/cassidy-a-woman-in-the-lodge/3821636

It is truely difficult to imagine Margaret Thatcher sharing her political bed with the likes of Bob Brown the Greens.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> Until election time, then it's look.. 'I'm drinking a beer, I'm just like you'. The ALP plays blue collar workers off a break.




Are you not getting mixed up with Abbotts endless photo opportunities?


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Poor Barry Cassidy struggles to come to terms with the fact that Julia Gillard is a hopeless PM and is only motivated by what keeps her and Labor in office for an extra 5 minutes.



Agree.   He provides no basis for his conclusion that Ms Gillard's poor ratings are due to sexism.  Why not consider, Barrie, that she scores so poorly because she is simply incompetent and is more renowned for breaking her word than anything else?


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Are you not getting mixed up with Abbotts endless photo opportunities?





Haha IFocus - do galahs have selective sight?


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Poor Barry Cassidy struggles to come to terms with the fact that Julia Gillard is a hopeless PM and is only motivated by what keeps her and Labor in office for an extra 5 minutes.




I think Barry cannot believe how hopeless Labor has messed up the political conversation particularly against possibly the most shallowness prime-minister in waiting ever.


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Haha IFocus - do galahs have selective sight?





Sails have you ever notice Galahs do not fly straight but they do see straighter than those that fly the  right wing


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Sails have you ever notice Galahs do not fly straight but they do see straighter than those that fly the  right wing




lol - no, your avatar is the only galah I get to see


----------



## joea

Hi.
I think the heat is starting to build up in the Government kitchen.
I think if they open the windows it will not help much.
For some strange reason the spokesperson for the FSU believe"s the banking sector is putting too much emphasis on its shareholders and making a profit.
I do not know where he got that silly notion from.
joea


----------



## noco

Why can't someone tell the truth about this tent embassy saga. All we seem to get is statements and contradictions and then another version of what happened and then another contrdiction by Gillard.

Sure the AFP could sort this out come hell or high water. The whole thing is sickening.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...radicted_gillard_again_on_her_mini_race_riot/


----------



## Eager

noco said:


> Why can't someone tell the truth about this tent embassy saga. All we seem to get is statements and contradictions and then another version of what happened and then another contrdiction by Gillard.
> 
> Sure the AFP could sort this out come hell or high water. The whole thing is sickening.
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...radicted_gillard_again_on_her_mini_race_riot/



That union sheila (I forget her name at the moment) has apparently changed her story 4 times. By comparison, Gillard has been entirely consistent.

Just an observation.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> That union sheila (I forget her name at the moment) has apparently changed her story 4 times. By comparison, Gillard has been entirely consistent.
> 
> Just an observation.




Well I would say it's pretty obvious, the union chick told the truth the first time, it didn't fit with Julias story and now the union chick is having trouble remembering the lies.LOL,LOL,LOL
Whatever you do don't get between a politician and their pension.


----------



## drsmith

For Gillard Labor, it never takes long to get back to business as usual.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-13/gillard-prepared-for-rudd-knifing-weeks-before-spill/3827726

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...d-prime-minister/story-fn59niix-1226270208253


----------



## drsmith

4-Corners excerpt,



> JULIA GILLARD: I'm not surprised that there were people, you know, around government who were - you know, in their own mind …
> 
> JOURNALIST: But did you know?
> 
> JULIA GILLARD: Well, I did not ask for a speech to be prepared.
> 
> JOURNALIST: But were you aware that one was being prepared?
> 
> JULIA GILLARD: Look, I've just given the best answer I can to your question.
> 
> JOURNALIST: My question was simply whether or not you knew.
> 
> JULIA GILLARD: I heard your question and I've answered it.



A response to the question, but not an answer.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3429843.htm


----------



## joea

Hi.
Well if it does not beat everything I have heard.
Julia Gillard has said "she made up her mind to challenge Kevin Rudd" on the day she challenged.
Regardless of the the "numbers" that had been accumulated to make the challenge!!!

Well you would have to make that "decision", or else you would not make the trip into Kevin's office, would you!? (she has found a way to  convince herself!)
Does this woman understand the words, "transparent or truth"? 

I sure that statement will help her future direction!!!
Obviously she does not take any account of the voters understanding on the current round of interviews.
The "implosion" is well underway!
joea


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> A response to the question, but not an answer.




Gillard said this morning about her appearance on the show.(Rudd refused). 

*"I am not one who runs away from questions."* It's just that her answers bear no relation to the questions.


----------



## Logique

Humans blamed for rise in shark attacks -SMH -February 14, 2012 
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...for-rise-in-shark-attacks-20120214-1t2nr.html

All humans? Tony Abbott wears budgie smugglers, he swims at the beach. This is clear evidence that shark attacks too are Tony Abbott's fault.


----------



## joea

Hi.
I was just thinking the job of PM should not be that hard.
All she has to do is kick Tim out of bed each day, and get him to read the Australian.
He can then print out which advice from the likes of Barry Cohen, Judith Sloan etc, and or Bruce Hawker is to Labors advantage.
He tosses them into her brief case, and she can read them on the way to work.
Just looks to me she is making an easy job look hard. For God's sake they are even writing her brief daily!!!!
joea


----------



## Calliope

Poor Julia. She wants to talk only about the "new economy" and "jobs creation" but those pesky interviewers want to talk only about Rudd. Rudd played her off a break on this one without appearing on the show.

Perhaps she should try Henry II's tactic; (with _variations_)

"What sluggards, what cowards have I brought up in my _Cabinet_ who care nothing for their allegiance to their _queen_. Who will rid me of this meddlesome _Minister_."


----------



## joea

Hi.
Because we have TV available to us, we are always looking for good comedy.
Well the three stooges(make that six) in Labor pretty much take the cake, for anybody watching in Australia and around the World.
joea


----------



## drsmith

That's a big grin.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/pm-used-polling-in-challenge-20120214-1t46r.html


----------



## sptrawler

That is classic drsmith, have you seen a more wooden face.
I think Rudd is having a ball, why would he challenge, there is more fun to be had taking the pizz.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I think Rudd is having a ball, why would he challenge, there is more fun to be had taking the pizz.



For poor Julz, it appears to be getting grubbier by the minute.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-...abor-leadership-challenge-20120215-1t4kw.html


----------



## joea

A couple of Paraprosdokian sentence's applied to:

Julia Gillard

" Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak."

Albanese

" Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Rudd on Gillard

" The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list."

On Swan:

" You are never too old to learn something stupid."

joea


----------



## Logique

The PM is a tremendous asset now, both to Kevin Rudd and the Coalition. Sadly, not to the nation.

_"The MPs are now prepared to speak on a background basis because they are disenchanted with her leadership, angry at her level of candour in her public comments this week, and no longer prepared to support her in any party ballot for the leadership.

"This stuff of Gillard's that 'I only tumbled into it on the day of the challenge' is patently untrue," said a caucus member she had lobbied before the coup.""_

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/gill...rigger-coup-20120214-1t49l.html#ixzz1mODfKQpS


----------



## Calliope

I don't think Simon Crean is PM material.



> By the afternoon, the PM had to sit uncomfortably beside former Labor leader Simon Crean while he was at the dispatch box during question time. Trying to score a point against the Tasmanian division of the Liberal Party (over an issue no one cares to remember),* Crean said: "I say when you enter an agreement, you've got to honour it."*
> 
> *Nice line, except it sounded like it was directed firmly at Gillard over the Andrew Wilkie poker machine deal or her pledge the day before the 2010 election not to introduce a carbon tax.*



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ift-pms-standing/story-fn53lw5p-1226271184311


----------



## Knobby22

I heard through someone who would know that Crean and Gillard loathe each other.


----------



## noco

Why is this stupid Government proping up Holden when the company offers workers an 18% pay rise over 3 years.

I don't know what those workers are currently being paid; that seems to be kept under wraps.

If they were genuine in their efforts to maintain their jobs they should reconsider these  pay rises as absurb. These increased wages will be paid out of tax payers funds. 

The company managers are lazy and the unions are just plain bloody greedy.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...ments/column_holden_plays_taxpayers_for_mugs/


----------



## noco

Knobby22 said:


> I heard through someone who would know that Crean and Gillard loathe each other.




It is not only Crean but about 40 others as well.


----------



## joea

In regards to Julia Gillard's suggestion, on what  the ABC's Four Corners program was going to interview her on, we have the email to the PM's office suggesting something far different to what Julia explained to the public.
But then we were aware of her selective hearing, so we can now add selective reading and selective explanation to he resume.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-ambush-question/story-fn59niix-1226272177032

joea


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Why is this stupid Government proping up Holden when the company offers workers an 18% pay rise over 3 years.
> 
> I don't know what those workers are currently being paid; that seems to be kept under wraps.




Good question! Two answers come to mind.
1 If the government is stupid enough to continue propping them up, they will waste
   the money somehow.
2 Holden will not be in business long enough to pay out the increase.

History says, that when there is a lot of union activity for higher wages and conditions
in a Labor government, then that Labor government has not long to run.

joea


----------



## inq

noco said:


> Why is this stupid Government proping up Holden when the company offers workers an 18% pay rise over 3 years.
> 
> I don't know what those workers are currently being paid; that seems to be kept under wraps.




Around 50-60k/year last time I checked.


----------



## joea

It is interesting to note over the last few months how Big Business has starting to " Dig In".
It started with Qantas taking on the Unions, and has continued with the pronounced 'jobs will go" by various companies.
The Banks then give Wayne Swan and the RBA "the finger".
Now we have Gail Kelly making suggestions about penalty rates.
The strike at BHP coal mines. i.e.not giving in!!!
Then to top it off we have Alan Joyce suggesting the politicians should take their head out of the sand, over a comment made about him.
Air Australia out of business over night!

Why "dig in" when Australia is doing very well in regards to other countries around the world???
joe


----------



## drsmith

The occupants within the Gillard tent are getting very nervous now. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...urn-on-rudd-20120217-1teic.html#ixzz1mftSOOm5


----------



## Logique

As the year wears on, expect more revisionism from the luvvies.

Mike Carlton, who informs us that his wife is a Four Corners producer, advises us that the Building the Education Revolution was in fact _'..by any fair measure, a whopping success..'._

Mike goes on _'...[the BER] rescued the building industry from a catastrophic collapse, exactly as planned...Only 3.5 per cent of schools complained of a dud deal; mostly in NSW, which was not the fault of the feds but of incompetence in the state bureaucracy.
Yet the conventional wisdom, whipped along by right-wing rabble-rousers in the press and on talkback radio, is that the BER was a shambolic waste of billions. And nothing the government does or says has changed that perception - not one whit..'_

So you see, according to Mike, it's just that the Govt didn't _sell_ it properly. It's just those darn _right-wing rabble-rousers_.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ble-gillard-20120217-1te78.html#ixzz1mh12cZYA


----------



## moXJO

Logique said:


> As the year wears on, expect more revisionism from the luvvies.
> 
> Mike Carlton, who informs us that his wife is a Four Corners producer, advises us that the Building the Education Revolution was in fact _'..by any fair measure, a whopping success..'._
> 
> Mike goes on _'...[the BER] rescued the building industry from a catastrophic collapse, exactly as planned...Only 3.5 per cent of schools complained of a dud deal; mostly in NSW, which was not the fault of the feds but of incompetence in the state bureaucracy.
> Yet the conventional wisdom, whipped along by right-wing rabble-rousers in the press and on talkback radio, is that the BER was a shambolic waste of billions. And nothing the government does or says has changed that perception - not one whit..'_
> 
> So you see, according to Mike, it's just that the Govt didn't _sell_ it properly. It's just those darn _right-wing rabble-rousers_.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ble-gillard-20120217-1te78.html#ixzz1mh12cZYA





Hundreds of tradies were ripped off and a lot were sent to the wall from the ber.


----------



## todster

moXJO said:


> Hundreds of tradies were ripped off and a lot were sent to the wall from the ber.




Over in the wild west a lot of schools have nice new halls for the kiddies.
But lets focus on the negative it't a liberal thing


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> Hundreds of tradies were ripped off and a lot were sent to the wall from the ber.



 Ditto via the pink batts scheme.



todster said:


> Over in the wild west a lot of schools have nice new halls for the kiddies.



 And several schools which had smart new halls built have since closed, such closing having been planned at the time the new building was done.
What wonderful use of the taxpayer dollar.

Weren't these programs the inspiration of Mr Rudd?   If Labor imagine a return to him as PM will save them, I think they're delusional.  Unless, perhaps, he were to scrap the carbon tax.  He could easily do this or at the very least drop the price per tonne to the nominal amount of, I think, about $1.50 that China intends to experiment with.


----------



## moXJO

todster said:


> Over in the wild west a lot of schools have nice new halls for the kiddies.
> But lets focus on the negative it't a liberal thing




Oh you mean like the one at my kids school where the kids don't actually fit in the hall. Or canteens that don't have enough room to actually fit the food in and prepare it. Yeah let’s concentrate on idiocy, it’s a labor thing.  And didn’t you have libs in WA State while the BER was going on? 

The schools that had actual control over what they wanted built (private/some public) received a quality product that fit well with the school. The others got some pretty shonky work. There is a long list of gripes but it's pointless to go over it again.

On another note, more corruption to come out in the coming weeks with NSW Labor. Will be interesting to see if any fed labor get caught up as well. This one will trash the Labor brand if they connect the dots. Better hope they knock off the guy before he spills the beans. Looking at some of those ex union grubs might be an idea as well


----------



## todster

moXJO said:


> Oh you mean like the one at my kids school where the kids don't actually fit in the hall. Or canteens that don't have enough room to actually fit the food in and prepare it. Yeah let’s concentrate on idiocy, it’s a labor thing.  And didn’t you have libs in WA State while the BER was going on?
> 
> The schools that had actual control over what they wanted built (private/some public) received a quality product that fit well with the school. The others got some pretty shonky work. There is a long list of gripes but it's pointless to go over it again.
> 
> On another note, more corruption to come out in the coming weeks with NSW Labor. Will be interesting to see if any fed labor get caught up as well. This one will trash the Labor brand if they connect the dots. Better hope they knock off the guy before he spills the beans. Looking at some of those ex union grubs might be an idea as well




Hey you choose where you live.


----------



## moXJO

todster said:


> Hey you choose where you live.




Things can only get better .... Right?


----------



## todster

moXJO said:


> Things can only get better .... Right?




According to the ASF political <> gallery the next election will be a landslide victory to the Libs and we will be saved from financial ruin.
Tony at the helm and Joe in the engine room we will steam ahead to greener pastures.


----------



## joea

todster said:


> According to the ASF political <> gallery the next election will be a landslide victory to the Libs and we will be saved from financial ruin.
> Tony at the helm and Joe in the engine room we will steam ahead to greener pastures.




todster I am assuming you are saying that with "tongue in cheek".

joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> todster I am assuming you are saying that with "tongue in cheek".
> 
> joea




No Joe, we are slowly converting him. He is starting to see the light.Yipee.


----------



## sptrawler

todster said:


> According to the ASF political <> gallery the next election will be a landslide victory to the Libs and we will be saved from financial ruin.
> Tony at the helm and Joe in the engine room we will steam ahead to greener pastures.




I don't know about greener pastures, but at least the union will keep them honest, rather than aiding and abetting them.


----------



## sptrawler

I wonder where this video clip came from, what a nasty little bunch of cannibals.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-little-vegemite/story-fn3dxity-1226274691549

I wonder if the people who set up the tent embassy riot had anything to do with it.
No that would be too much of a coincidence, wouldn't it?
This government is going to make box office history when a movie is made.LOL


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> This government is going to make box office history when a movie is made.LOL



With the leadership now a full scale civil war within Labor, it should be an entertaining week.


----------



## Julia

Yes, I'm all for the entertainment as long as it doesn't conclude with Rudd being restored to the Prime Ministership.

The idea of a third candidate, e.g. Stephen Smith, seems to have been dropped.
Imo that would be the only possible chance Labor would have of survival.

How on earth can people not remember how unpopular Rudd became, both inside and outside of government!


----------



## drsmith

How will Kevin Rudd respond ?

Will he bring it on ?

Is that what team Gillard is hoping for before he secures the numbers ?


----------



## sptrawler

I would think Rudd will leave his run untill after the Queensland bloodbath. Then all the labor members will see their fate.
Abbott has said this is a referendum on the carbon tax, I think it is a poll on the minority government as a whole.
If labor wins, Abbott is in trouble. If labor are hammered well gillard is toast, Bob will distance the greens from labor and Wilkie will morph into a liberal, Windsor will retire and Oakeshott has blown his political career. IMO


----------



## drsmith

How much longer can Labor go on like this ?



> The Victorian MP Darren Cheeseman told The Sun-Herald many rank-and-file MPs had concluded her leadership was "terminal", a sign backbenchers are prepared to speak out about the leadership speculation dogging the government.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/rudd-row-gets-dirty-20120218-1tg9j.html


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> I would think Rudd will leave his run untill after the Queensland bloodbath.




It appears Federal Parliament goes into recess just before the Qld  state election.
If Rudd waits until they come back, she may have time to put out the fire.
It certainly going to be interesting, because its news time (6.03 am)and Rudd is on TV saying there is no challenge as we currently have a Prime Minister.
joea


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> I would think Rudd will leave his run untill after the Queensland bloodbath...



I don't expect a Rudd challenge until after the QLD election. Why should he, time is on his side now.

As for the video of Rudd released overnight, no prizes for guessing whose supporters were behind that. It's their style. So Rudd swears sometimes..shock horror, stop the presses. It won't hurt him.


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> The occupants within the Gillard tent are getting very nervous now.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...urn-on-rudd-20120217-1teic.html#ixzz1mftSOOm5




If Krudd is so bad, according to Juliar supporters, why is he Minister of Foreign affairs????


----------



## trainspotter

dutchie said:


> If Krudd is so bad, according to Juliar supporters, why is he Minister of Foreign affairs????




ROFL ........ have you been paying attention? There will be a test after all this is over.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> I don't expect a Rudd challenge until after the QLD election. Why should he, time is on his side now.
> 
> As for the video of Rudd released overnight, no prizes for guessing whose supporters were behind that. It's their style. So Rudd swears sometimes..shock horror, stop the presses. It won't hurt him.




Logique, after watching AM Agenda and the Insiders this morning, I think we will see some action on the Rudd issue before the Queensland election.

Things are sure getting ugly there is no doubt about it.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> As for the video of Rudd released overnight, no prizes for guessing whose supporters were behind that. It's their style. So Rudd swears sometimes..shock horror, stop the presses. It won't hurt him.




You are right. The video gave him an opportunity for him to show us the new reformed Rudd.



> Kevin Rudd, in response to the damaging leak of an expletive-ridden video of him when he was prime minister, has publicly disclosed his intentions, with declarations of having learned from his mistakes and wanting to get the government's message back on to the economy.
> 
> *Giving what was literally a five minutes to midnight interview to Sky News, Rudd formalised and unveiled a campaign to return to the leadership that has been underway for months.*
> 
> The release of the damning video and Rudd's response gives his campaign even more momentum amid an atmosphere of dirty tricks, ministers desperately trying to frighten backbenchers about Rudd's personality, and the possibility of an early election.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ime-ministership/story-fn59niix-1226274921618


----------



## sptrawler

It will be a hoot if Rudd get back in, Wilkie has said he will jump into bed with any one, Oakeshott has said he's only with julia. Julia will probably spit the chewy and leave politics, so I guess Oakeshott will have to go with her. LOL
All the pink batts will get pulled out of storage, Hardly Normal will stock up on plasmas.
Let the good times roll baby.  
Bob, we forgot about Bob, oh well give him foriegn affairs, he can sort out that ffing chinese interpreter. LOL,LOL
This is better than National Lampoons.


----------



## drsmith

My bet is on a special meeting.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-...sis-nears-breaking-point/3838886?WT.svl=news0


----------



## sptrawler

I think I heard on the news Rudd has left the country, apparently has to do some navel gazing in outer Botswana. LOL,LOL,LOL

This is brilliant, classic Aussie comedy.


----------



## joea

Well I believe that Juliar will be looking forward to the bout with Kevin, because she believes that she will dispose of him again.

On a brighter note Tanya Plibersek was  interviewed on a program on Sunday.
To listen to this woman speak and handle the political questions was something to behold.
To me she stands for everything that Gillard does not.
Its a crying shame she is not a member of the LNP.

How Tanya presented her self and spoke is what could be expected of a female PM.
One can be confident that her duties are being carried out with dignity and integrity.
Hopefully she can avoid being embroiled in the "mud slinging " of the PM saga.
joea


----------



## Starcraftmazter

This leadership thing is quite funny. If Rudd takes it, there's no question he will win the next election running rings around the incompetent libs.

That's not to say I support him or anyone, but it is pretty funny.


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> This leadership thing is quite funny. If Rudd takes it, there's no question he will win the next election running rings around the incompetent libs.
> 
> That's not to say I support him or anyone, but it is pretty funny.




The funny thing is this is the best they could come up with. Rudd failed hard first time around so labor logic is to trot him out again
I agree he has a good chance of wining the next election. Labors strategy seems to be switch leaders before an election to the slightly more popular one.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

He didn't really fail so much as he was removed by the mining industry in a coup d'Ã©tat
of the Australian government.


----------



## joea

Hi.
Government Theory


The tribal wisdom of the Dakota Indians, passed on  from generation to  generation, says that: “When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, best strategy is to dismount”. 


However, in government, more advanced strategies are often  employed, such as:

1. Buying a stronger whip.

2. Changing  riders.

3. Appointing a committee to study the horse.

4.  Arranging to visit other countries to see how other cultures ride dead  horses.

5. Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be  included.

6. Reclassifying the dead horse as  living-impaired.

7. Hiring outside contractors to ride the dead  horse.

8. Harnessing several dead horses together to increase speed.

9. Providing additional funding and/or training to  increase the dead horse's performance.

10. Doing a productivitystudy to see if lighter riders would improve the dead horse's  performance. 


11. Declaring that as the dead horse does not have to  be fed, it is less  costly, carries lower overhead and therefore contributes substantially  more to the bottom line of the economy than do some other  horses.

12. Rewriting the expected performance requirements for  all horses.

And of course....

13 Promoting the dead  horse to a supervisory position.

Do you recognise these theories?  Many of them are being practiced in governments all over the world! 

 joea via Intersuisse



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> He didn't really fail so much as he was removed by the mining industry in a coup d'Ã©tat
> of the Australian government.




He was removed partly because he was an A-hole to almost every member of the labor party. And total disregard when it came to spending not to mention jumping from one grand scheme policy to another and leaving nothing but a mess. The mining excuse was a small part in a much larger picture and sounds a little tin hat as the only reason.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

moXJO said:


> He was removed partly because he was an A-hole to almost every member of the labor party.




Then why did they make him the leader in the first place? Why is there talk of him coming back now?



moXJO said:


> And total disregard when it came to spending




Every Australian government for over a decade has had total disregard when it came to spending - this has nothing to do with any one individual.



moXJO said:


> not to mention jumping from one grand scheme policy to another and leaving nothing but a mess. The mining excuse was a small part in a much larger picture and sounds a little tin hat as the only reason.




Seems logical considering it was the mining tax which led to him being removed.


----------



## Logique

moXJO said:


> He was removed partly because he was an A-hole to almost every member of the labor party. And total disregard when it came to spending not to mention jumping from one grand scheme policy to another and leaving nothing but a mess. The mining excuse was a small part in a much larger picture and sounds a little tin hat as the only reason.



Yes and the real takeover was by the unions, who have installed their preferred leader, with the Kim Sattlers of the movement running around propping her up. The Gillard Govt has dutifully wound back industrial relations to the 1970's, driving manufacturers offshore through surging costs of doing business, destroying Australian jobs, and vastly increasing the power of the unions.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

Logique said:


> Yes and the real takeover was by the unions, who have installed their preferred leader, with the Kim Sattlers of the movement running around propping her up. The Gillard Govt has dutifully wound back industrial relations to the 1970's, driving manufacturers offshore through surging costs of doing business, destroying Australian jobs, and vastly increasing the power of the unions.




Remind me, what did the government under Gillard do to increase union powers?


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> Remind me, what did the government under Gillard do to increase union powers?




How about ABCC for starters, plenty more when you sift through the IR laws as well.


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> Then why did they make him the leader in the first place? Why is there talk of him coming back now?




It’s well documented he isolated himself from the rest of the MPs even those who put him in power. And it's just talk at the moment; personally I can't see how or why they would reinstate him as PM given the history. It would be a desperate move to shore up votes.


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> He was removed partly because he was an A-hole to almost every member of the labor party. And total disregard when it came to spending not to mention jumping from one grand scheme policy to another and leaving nothing but a mess. The mining excuse was a small part in a much larger picture and sounds a little tin hat as the only reason.







Logique said:


> Yes and the real takeover was by the unions, who have installed their preferred leader, with the Kim Sattlers of the movement running around propping her up. The Gillard Govt has dutifully wound back industrial relations to the 1970's, driving manufacturers offshore through surging costs of doing business, destroying Australian jobs, and vastly increasing the power of the unions.



+1 on both the above posts.   Labor are simply desperate and are therefore considering reinstalling Rudd which would be a disaster of the same epic proportions it was the first time round.

Imo their only hope is the third option of someone bland and safe like Stephen Smith.
He, at least, doesn't seem to stir up the sort of fear and loathing that flows toward Gillard and Rudd.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

moXJO said:


> It’s well documented he isolated himself from the rest of the MPs even those who put him in power.




Then who wants to put him in power now? Your claims are inconsistent.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Imo their only hope is the third option of someone bland and safe like Stephen Smith.
> He, at least, doesn't seem to stir up the sort of fear and loathing that flows toward Gillard and Rudd.




I call that the "Jim Hacker option".     (Yes Minister)


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> Then who wants to put him in power now? Your claims are inconsistent.




Lol those in the marginal seats who want to save their ass at any cost by the look of it. Star the only inconsistency is labors words matching their actions.
Kevin Rudd didnt say he was a "changed man" and had "learnt from his mistakes" because he was trusted by the party.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

moXJO said:


> Lol those in the marginal seats who want to save their ass at any cost by the look of it. Star the only inconsistency is labors words matching their actions.
> Kevin Rudd didnt say he was a "changed man" and had "learnt from his mistakes" because he was trusted by the party.




If KR's support is as small as you make it out to be, I wonder how we have a leadership struggle at all?

Are you saying it's impossible he will become the new PM?


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> If KR's support is as small as you make it out to be, I wonder how we have a leadership struggle at all?
> 
> Are you saying it's impossible he will become the new PM?




Improbable and imo only.
Everyone is so quick to jump to saying Gillard or Rudd leaked the video, well the libs had the most to gain by leaking it. Who is gaining the most out of the media blitz and speculation on leadership at the moment? 
I'm not saying there is no one in labor that doesn’t want to see Rudd come back, I'm sure there are a few in opposing factions. Just the hatred at how Rudd had done things and the amount of bridges burnt I don't see it ending well with party unity. And labor just can't be that dumb. People within the unions I have talked to say there is no chance for a Rudd return.
Is this a media beat up is all I'm asking.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Imo their only hope is the third option of someone bland and safe like Stephen Smith.
> He, at least, doesn't seem to stir up the sort of fear and loathing that flows toward Gillard and Rudd.




-1 on Smith.  Bland and safe does not stir the blood. A few synonyms spring to mind;



> banal, blah, boring, dull, dull as dishwater, flat, flavorless, ho hum, humdrum, insipid, milk-and-water, monotonous, nerdy, nothing, pabulum, sapless, tame, tedious, unexciting, uninspiring, uninteresting, unstimulating, vanilla, vapid, waterish, watery, weak, wimpy, wishy-washy, zero.



 (Thesaurus.com)

Starcrafty asks re Krudd,


> Are you saying it's impossible he will become the new PM?




As Keating said;  "A soufflÃ© doesn't rise twice."


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> On a brighter note Tanya Plibersek was  interviewed on a program on Sunday.
> To listen to this woman speak and handle the political questions was something to behold.
> To me she stands for everything that Gillard does not.
> Its a crying shame she is not a member of the LNP.
> 
> How Tanya presented her self and spoke is what could be expected of a female PM.
> One can be confident that her duties are being carried out with dignity and integrity.
> Hopefully she can avoid being embroiled in the "mud slinging " of the PM saga.
> joea




So we agree about some thing had to happen one day  

Plibersek was on the insiders and yes she is IMHO a good performer reels of the numbers no problems at all also a tough girl smacked down Richo  and shut him up on Q&A.

BTW the Liberals have some excellent talent on the back bench but they will not see the light of day due the Howard dead wood brigade.


----------



## Logique

Starcraftmazter said:


> Remind me, what did the government under Gillard do to increase union powers?



The Fair Work Act 2009 and Regulations. And as reported in the media in recent days - unions may not now be prosecuted for industrial action if they subsequently reach a compromise with the employers - correctly summed up by Sen Eric Abetz as a 'licence to extort'.  

The dead hand of union control. In the US they have the Teamsters.

Star I'm surprised you didn't mention the strong $AUD, which is certainly a strong headwind for exporters, but not the only challenge they face.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> BTW the Liberals have some excellent talent on the back bench but they will not see the light of day due the Howard dead wood brigade.



The deadwood in the Coalition camp is nothing in comparison to the vast smoke plume, the deafening sound of war drums and the stench of burning Prime Minister that's coming from the other camp.


----------



## noco

Starcraftmazter said:


> If KR's support is as small as you make it out to be, I wonder how we have a leadership struggle at all?
> 
> Are you saying it's impossible he will become the new PM?




Richo says KRudd does not have the numbers and he is always in the know!!!!!!!


----------



## drsmith

What's extraordinary is that this is happening to a political party in office.

This sort of slow motion leadership implosion is usually reserved for oppositions at their lowest point.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> The deadwood in the Coalition camp is nothing in comparison to the vast smoke plume, the deafening sound of war drums and the stench of burning Prime Minister that's coming from the other camp.




+1. sock it to him Doc.


----------



## drsmith

Either party must feel Kevin Rudd is within striking distance, otherwise it wouldn't have been ramped up to total war over the weekend.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

Logique said:


> The Fair Work Act 2009 and Regulations.




I said Gillard government (since this thread is titled 'Gillard Government'). She was not the PM in 2009.




Logique said:


> And as reported in the media in recent days - unions may not now be prosecuted for industrial action if they subsequently reach a compromise with the employers - correctly summed up by Sen Eric Abetz as a 'licence to extort'.




The relationship between unions and businesses in Australia is incorrect, but I would not dare say unions are solely responsible. They are both equally bad.




Logique said:


> Star I'm surprised you didn't mention the strong $AUD, which is certainly a strong headwind for exporters, but not the only challenge they face.




Didn't mention where? Is this the effect of the forex markets on the economy analysis thread??


----------



## sptrawler

Bob must be getting annoyed with all these diversions, he has told Julia to get gay marriage through by christmas.
He will be calling her into his office for a please explain soon.LOL,LOL,LOL


----------



## drsmith

Bob Brown will be rubbing his hands with glee fantacising about disillusioned latte Labor voters turning Green.


----------



## Calliope

The papers are full of the *Gonski *Report. Don't you just love the word *Gonski.* Poor julia is ducking and weaving to avoid mention of the word. It is pronounced like;

 "goneski." meaning  "gone, missing, down. vanished, broken." 

No better word describes the Gillard and Bligh governments.


----------



## drsmith

Her leg wasn't the only thing that had gone numb. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-to-save-herself/story-fnahw9xv-1226276345194


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> The deadwood in the Coalition camp is nothing in comparison to the vast smoke plume, the deafening sound of war drums and the stench of burning Prime Minister that's coming from the other camp.





Enjoy and gloat on an Abbot gov will make this lot look like a side show.........


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Just try and imagine Julia Gillard as PM when the next Federal election is called.

What's her policy launch sound like: "I promise to blah blah blah" - "There will be no $#$# under the Government I lead".

OK maybe that's too harsh - let's not have any of that 'moving forward' stuff, let's look back instead at our achievements - school halls, pink batts, set top boxes.

If you can't imagine an election campaign led by Gillard, then no one else in the Labor Party can either...


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Enjoy and gloat.....



Invitation accepted.

Even Daffy Duck as PM couldn't make this government look like a side show.


----------



## sptrawler

StumpyPhantom said:


> OK maybe that's too harsh - let's not have any of that 'moving forward' stuff, let's look back instead at our achievements - school halls, pink batts, set top boxes.




Funny you should mention the set top box, my 80 year old mum, said she hasn't got hers yet.
Does anyone have a number she can call?


----------



## StumpyPhantom

sptrawler said:


> Funny you should mention the set top box, my 80 year old mum, said she hasn't got hers yet.
> Does anyone have a number she can call?




The people on the end of the numbers are DODGY FLY-BY-NIGHTERS, whose last job was installing PINK BATTS.  Just go the local tech shop and it will get done for $99.


----------



## Logique

This blogger (from Canberra) introduced something new into the discussion - Kevin Rudd might call on a double dissolution. Wouldn't put it past him either.

_http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...rudd_isnt_gillards_real_problem/#commentsmore__
Kevin will roll Gillard. He will then call a double dissolution. He will not get mad, he will get even. 
As a direct result of the double dissolution of parliament, he wont have to sack any of the conspirators who stabbed him in the back. Because most of them will lose their seat in government. He wont have to rearrange anything in the short term because the Labor Party will be annihilated. 

He will be vindicated and returned as the PM the Australian public voted for in 2007. 
Kevin has nothing to lose. He wont have time to get mad because he will get EVEN and Australia can start to enjoy life again without, the Greens, Oakshott, Windsor, Wilkie, Bandt, Swan, Albanese, Combet, Bowen and the rest of the party of inconsequence. 
El Jay of Canberra (Reply)
Wed 22 Feb 12 (07:32am) _


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> This blogger (from Canberra) introduced something new into the discussion - Kevin Rudd might call on a double dissolution. Wouldn't put it past him either.
> 
> _http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...rudd_isnt_gillards_real_problem/#commentsmore__
> Kevin will roll Gillard. He will then call a double dissolution. He will not get mad, he will get even.
> As a direct result of the double dissolution of parliament, he wont have to sack any of the conspirators who stabbed him in the back. Because most of them will lose their seat in government. He wont have to rearrange anything in the short term because the Labor Party will be annihilated.
> 
> He will be vindicated and returned as the PM the Australian public voted for in 2007.
> Kevin has nothing to lose. He wont have time to get mad because he will get EVEN and Australia can start to enjoy life again without, the Greens, Oakshott, Windsor, Wilkie, Bandt, Swan, Albanese, Combet, Bowen and the rest of the party of inconsequence.
> El Jay of Canberra (Reply)
> Wed 22 Feb 12 (07:32am) _




The blogger might have some of that right, but even with a double dissolution, I think labor would lose too many seats for Rudd to be PM.  However, he might be the only one elected, so he would at least be leader of the opposition...

If Rudd had the guts to call a double dissolution, he would probably be elevated to hero status for allowing the people to put things right and stop the 10% party trying to call the shots for the 90% who did not vote for them.


----------



## sptrawler

If Gillard wins and sends Rudd to the back bench, it would be interesting to see if Rudd steps down and causes a by election.
If a couple of Rudd supporters followed suit that would make things really interesting.


----------



## sptrawler

Well Rudd has resigned, he has to make his play now.
I don't think he will be the last, the new P.M's pay packet will make a huge deference to the pension they recieve.
Simon Crean would love to have his retirement enhanced and there isn't much time to lock it in before the election. Then they won't have another opportunity as most will be thrown out of office.
Julia will be attacked on all fronts for the big pre election bonus.IMO


----------



## joea

If this situation comes to a head and there is a challenge and a vote, it will be interesting to see the next polls if Gillard has a win.
One would think a kick start for Gillard may overflow on to Bligh to temporarily give her
a little hope.
Kevin on the other hand is implying a win to him will help Bligh.
Is is make or break "for Labor", or just a temporary reprieve.??
joea


----------



## joea

Hi.
To go one step further, this Rudd - Gillard "fiasco" is just a diversion for something bigger, possibly  a reshuffle of the Labor cabinet to beat Abbott at the coming election.
joea


----------



## Starcraftmazter

If they got rid of Swan and Conroy, that would be wonderful.


----------



## sptrawler

Starcraftmazter said:


> If they got rid of Swan and Conroy, that would be wonderful.




I'm with you on that SCM, real nasty pieces of work those two. I think they are in a legue of their own when it comes to vindictive and self serving. They seem to be enjoying the mud slinging and bad mouthing, not a good look.
Electors will remember.

If there is one good thing to come out of this it is, we are seeing the real Wayne Swan and it's not very attractive.


----------



## tech/a

If Labor weren't dead in the water before----they are now.

Burial will take place in the coming weeks.

Might be a bit deeper than 6 feet.


----------



## sptrawler

This is the problem with the current situation.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ays-tony-windsor/story-e6freooo-1226279158763

We have this goose, saying that Rudd or Abbott couldn't deal with a hung parliament.
Well that is probably because bending over backwards to minority groups, is not the way to govern a country.
Rather than having a hung parliament they would probably both go to an election, then we wouldn't have to hear from non events like Windsor.
I don't know why the papers publish what these pretenders have to say, in the normal scheme of things he would be up the back bench catching up on his sleep. Jeez  
What a way to run a bl@@dy country.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

sptrawler said:


> This is the problem with the current situation.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ays-tony-windsor/story-e6freooo-1226279158763
> 
> We have this goose, saying that Rudd or Abbott couldn't deal with a hung parliament.
> Well that is probably because bending over backwards to minority groups, is not the way to govern a country.
> Rather than having a hung parliament they would probably both go to an election, then we wouldn't have to hear from non events like Windsor.
> I don't know why the papers publish what these pretenders have to say, in the normal scheme of things he would be up the back bench catching up on his sleep. Jeez
> What a way to run a bl@@dy country.




Can't disagree more. These people got elected, and their constituents deserve to get representation. I love minority governments, because they keep the main parties in check.

Parties are far too powerful and linear in thinking. They rarely represent their constituents. In an ideal world, the parliament would be ran only by independents.


----------



## drsmith

Tony Windsor, as do the other independents, know they heve dealt themselves out of the game under an Abbott government.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ction-if-government-falls-20120222-1tohr.html

They will continue to support this rotting corpse of an administration to the very end.


----------



## sptrawler

Starcraftmazter said:


> Can't disagree more. These people got elected, and their constituents deserve to get representation. I love minority governments, because they keep the main parties in check.
> 
> Parties are far too powerful and linear in thinking. They rarely represent their constituents. In an ideal world, the parliament would be ran only by independents.




Good points SCM, the main problem though is the minority has a disproportionate say in policy.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

sptrawler said:


> Good points SCM, the main problem though is the minority has a disproportionate say in policy.




Well let's take the independents, can you give any example of disproportionate influence on policies which are bad and would not have been passed otherwise?

The way our democratic system works is that they are responsible for representing their constituents best they can. Given when a party like ALP or LNP gets an outright majority and doesn't need the independents, they get undemocratically and unjustifiably shafted, I would argue that they are owned for all those terms in parliament when their voices were not taken as strongly as they should have been.

I really hate party politics and the fact that politicians decide policies and decide to support or reject them themselves and based on their party membership. In reality, there is no democracy within this process.

Therefore, I support anything which undermines the undemocratic nature of party driven politics as opposed to voter driven politics.


----------



## drsmith

Starcraftmazter said:


> Well let's take the independents, can you give any example of disproportionate influence on policies which are bad and would not have been passed otherwise?



Carbon tax.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

drsmith said:


> Carbon tax.




Had those independents been ALP members, it would still have been passed, so I fail to see your point.


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> Had those independents been ALP members, it would still have been passed, so I fail to see your point.




Bob brown was quoted as saying there will be a Carbon tax, while Gillard said there would be no Carbon tax.
So no, Dr S is right


----------



## Starcraftmazter

moXJO said:


> Bob brown was quoted as saying there will be a Carbon tax, while Gillard said there would be no Carbon tax.
> So no, Dr S is right




Last time I checked Bob Brown is not an independent.


----------



## moXJO

Starcraftmazter said:


> Last time I checked Bob Brown is not an independent.




Last time I checked he was part of the greens decision makers. How many green friendly Indies are there again Star


----------



## drsmith

Starcraftmazter said:


> Had those independents been ALP members, it would still have been passed, so I fail to see your point.



You won't see my point looking at it that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


----------



## moXJO

Let's add on to that greens have the controlling vote in the senate giving a disproportionate say in final policy. So even if a policy is good they can tack on all kinds of conditions to turn it into ****e. And greens are what ? 13% of the vote


----------



## Logique

Starcraftmazter said:


> Had those independents been ALP members, it would still have been passed, so I fail to see your point.



Windsor and Mr 17 minutes were elected in Coalition seats, and that's how their electors expected them to vote.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

moXJO said:


> Last time I checked he was part of the greens decision makers. How many green friendly Indies are there again Star




Greens have nothing to do with independents. 



drsmith said:


> You won't see my point looking at it that way.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man




Pointing out your own straw man argument I hope; bringing up the Greens when the discussion is clearly about independents.



Logique said:


> Windsor and Mr 17 minutes were elected in Coalition seats, and that's how their electors expected them to vote.




That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. By your own logic if a coalition candidate gets a seat from an ALP candidate in an election, he should vote with the ALP because that's how his electorate expects him to vote.

Maybe you should think before you type.


----------



## drsmith

Starcraftmazter said:


> Pointing out your own straw man argument I hope; bringing up the Greens when the discussion is clearly about independents.



OK.

Time to cut the oxygen.


----------



## Knobby22

Logique said:


> Windsor and Mr 17 minutes were elected in Coalition seats, and that's how their electors expected them to vote.




Made me laugh!


----------



## tinhat

sails said:


> The blogger might have some of that right, but even with a double dissolution, I think labor would lose too many seats for Rudd to be PM.  However, he might be the only one elected, so he would at least be leader of the opposition...
> 
> If Rudd had the guts to call a double dissolution, he would probably be elevated to hero status for allowing the people to put things right and stop the 10% party trying to call the shots for the 90% who did not vote for them.




There is an irony there. If Rudd had had the guts to call a double dissolution over the rejection of the carbon trading scheme in the senate when he had the opportunity to do so he may never have got rolled in the first place.


----------



## Julia

tinhat said:


> There is an irony there. If Rudd had had the guts to call a double dissolution over the rejection of the carbon trading scheme in the senate when he had the opportunity to do so he may never have got rolled in the first place.



+1.   Had he done this he would have been able to hold himself up as a conviction politician.  Instead he displayed his lack of genuine fundamental principle.



Starcraftmazter said:


> Well let's take the independents, can you give any example of disproportionate influence on policies which are bad and would not have been passed otherwise?



Andrew Wilkie's pokies reform.  That proposed legislation was purely driven by Mr Wilkie as a demand to Gillard for his support.  He was supported by Nick Xenophon, another Independent in the Senate.

And you might as well put the Greens in the same category as the Independents, given their very small proportion of the vote but completely disproportionate influence.
There absolutely would not have been a carbon tax had it not been for the demand of the Greens.

The present government has shown itself to be entirely without principles and able to be bought by whomever will promise to help it maintain its tenuous hold on power.
The same goes in a personal sense for Julia Gillard who is presently reaping the results of her own treachery.

A choice between Gillard and Rudd is a choice from hell.  They are both shallow, self serving and entirely without concern for what is best for Australia and her citizens.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

Julia said:


> Andrew Wilkie's pokies reform.  That proposed legislation was purely driven by Mr Wilkie as a demand to Gillard for his support.  He was supported by Nick Xenophon, another Independent in the Senate.




And what is wrong with said legislation? Pokies are a cancer on society, they suck up government paid pension money. It is unacceptable.



Julia said:


> And you might as well put the Greens in the same category as the Independents, given their very small proportion of the vote but completely disproportionate influence.




Not really, without their preferences ALP would not have nearly as many seats.



Julia said:


> The present government has shown itself to be entirely without principles and able to be bought by whomever will promise to help it maintain its tenuous hold on power.




Sorry to tell you, but this is every politician in practically every country. Abbott would get down on all 4s for the Greens if they would allow him to govern.



Julia said:


> A choice between Gillard and Rudd is a choice from hell.  They are both shallow, self serving and entirely without concern for what is best for Australia and her citizens.




Yeh, again - this is every politician in just about every country. Do not get the illusion of choice. In fact the only real possible exception to this are independents, because they are not already paid for by a political party.


----------



## joea

Starcraftmazter said:


> And what is wrong with said legislation? Pokies are a cancer on society, they suck up government paid pension money. It is unacceptable.




And that is why Gillard side stepped it.

Pension money  > pokie, tax > to government, government pension > pensioner and so it goes on. Gillard just misunderstood how much money was incoming in taxes when she agreed to look at it.
joea


----------



## Starcraftmazter

joea said:


> Pension money  > pokie, tax > to government, government pension > pensioner and so




Are you implying that is somehow a good thing??


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> I'm with you on that SCM, real nasty pieces of work those two. I think they are in a legue of their own when it comes to vindictive and self serving. They seem to be enjoying the mud slinging and bad mouthing, not a good look.
> Electors will remember.
> 
> If there is one good thing to come out of this it is, we are seeing the real Wayne Swan and it's not very attractive.




Well from what I am reading and hearing this mud slinging and nastiness is having a polarising effect in the labor party.
It may take a few more bbq's at the lodge and a few beers to get the bad taste out of everyones mouth.
The Independents and even labor members would be thinking" there but for the grace of god goes me".
This vicious attack on one of their own, just goes to highlight what would happen to Abbott if he was the wilting flower type.
This is a perfect example of why Turnbull kept getting in trouble, too nice a guy to be dealing with these vipers.LOL,LOL,LOL
It's great when you see the real Julia, the real Wayne and the real Conroy.


----------



## Julia

Starcraftmazter said:


> And what is wrong with said legislation? Pokies are a cancer on society, they suck up government paid pension money. It is unacceptable.



You are entitled to your opinion about them.  I happen to also find them totally uninteresting and breathtakingly boring.  However, I don't think my opinion about them or yours should interfere with the rights of others who find them fun and appropriate for their level of intellectual engagement.

I detest everything to do with the nanny state and this interference with the individual's right to choose what he does with his money is a prime example of it.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Julia said:


> You are entitled to your opinion about them.  I happen to also find them totally uninteresting and breathtakingly boring.  However, I don't think my opinion about them or yours should interfere with the rights of others who find them fun and appropriate for their level of intellectual engagement.
> 
> I detest everything to do with the nanny state and this interference with the individual's right to choose what he does with his money is a prime example of it.




A good post Julia, I could not agree more.

This thread is being taken over by the interferons.

gg


----------



## Starcraftmazter

Julia said:


> You are entitled to your opinion about them.  I happen to also find them totally uninteresting and breathtakingly boring.  However, I don't think my opinion about them or yours should interfere with the rights of others who find them fun and appropriate for their level of intellectual engagement.
> 
> I detest everything to do with the nanny state and this interference with the individual's right to choose what he does with his money is a prime example of it.




Perhaps you would prefer Anarchism.

There exists a serious social and more importantly an economical problem which is fixable with legislation. There are not two sides to this problem. This is why the government exists in the first place.


----------



## joea

Starcraftmazter said:


> Are you implying that is somehow a good thing??




No! 
Gillard bartered her soul to be PM.
After the big spend up to save our so called economy, she came to her senses a bit.
Then she had to come to grips with reining in the defecit. Basically she needs all the taxes she can get. So basically she has to retain the tax from the pokies.
No doubt there is a trial on pokies, but I would think the results from that will take as long as the Craig Thompson fiasco.

joe


----------



## wayneL

Starcraftmazter said:


> Perhaps you would prefer Anarchism.




This sort of foolish non sequitur is not helpful. 

A person who desires a smaller government (eg classical liberals) do not prefer anarchism.


----------



## Logique

Starcraftmazter said:


> ..That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. By your own logic if a coalition candidate gets a seat from an ALP candidate in an election, he should vote with the ALP because that's how his electorate expects him to vote.
> Maybe you should think before you type.



Getting ahead of myself wasn't I. Rural, deeply conservative seats (New England and Lyne). They will go back to the National Party at the next election. Independent Members for New England and Lyne cannnot have been in any doubt which way their constituents wanted them to vote.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

joea said:


> No!
> Gillard bartered her soul to be PM.
> After the big spend up to save our so called economy, she came to her senses a bit.
> Then she had to come to grips with reining in the defecit. Basically she needs all the taxes she can get. So basically she has to retain the tax from the pokies.
> No doubt there is a trial on pokies, but I would think the results from that will take as long as the Craig Thompson fiasco.




I don't agree and here is why;

The pokies tax is another stupid, pointless inefficient and ineffective tax. It also allows and even encourages poor social and economic outcomes - which at best cancel out the revenue from it, and at worst cost much more.

Therefore it would be much better to simply outlaw pokie machines. If she wants additional revenue then there is plenty to take by reforming the tax structure and getting rid of stupid tax incentives for speculators like negative gearing, and getting rid of all middle income welfare. That would raise far more money.



Logique said:


> Getting ahead of myself wasn't I. Rural, deeply conservative seats (New England and Lyne). They will go back to the National Party at the next election. Independent Members for New England and Lyne cannnot have been in any doubt which way their constituents wanted them to vote.




I am from the New England area, Tony Windsor has represented it for a long time now as an independent and the vast majority of people support him as an independent - not as a nationals member posting as independent.


----------



## Julia

wayneL said:


> This sort of foolish non sequitur is not helpful.



True.  It is, however, typical of the poster.  I need to remind myself that attempting to engage in any sort of discussion with him is really just a waste of time


----------



## sptrawler

Well it looks as though the Thompson affair is heating up.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/thomson-union-printer-raided-over-credit-card-20120224-1trn9.html

If Rudd decides to pull the pin on politics and Thompson goes for the high jump, it's election time. Yeh


----------



## Calliope

Starcraftmazter said:


> There exists a serious social and more importantly an economical problem which is fixable with legislation. There are not two sides to this problem. This is why the government exists in the first place.




Who decides if it is a problem? The government is elected to do our bidding and not to interfere in private lifestyle issues. If a party wants to do this they should warn us before we vote to elect them.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

Calliope said:


> Who decides if it is a problem? The government is elected to do our bidding and not to interfere in private lifestyle issues. If a party wants to do this they should warn us before we vote to elect them.




Anything and everything the government does interferes in private lives...

I don't disagree about parties needing to warn people before being elected, but it's rather difficult and inefficient. It would be better if the public was simply polled for every policy initiative separately.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> True.  It is, however, typical of the poster.  I need to remind myself that attempting to engage in any sort of discussion with him is really just a waste of time




+1.


----------



## sptrawler

Bob up to his usual BS, he says he will work with any labor leader.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...er-and-done-with/story-e6freuyi-1226280587596

That is as long as they are doing what Bob wants.
If he will work with labor, they will get their Malaysian solution up and running.LOL,LOL
What a wa---er


----------



## Starcraftmazter

sptrawler said:


> Bob up to his usual BS, he says he will work with any labor leader.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...er-and-done-with/story-e6freuyi-1226280587596
> 
> That is as long as they are doing what Bob wants.




I don't see what the problem is here. What did you expect him to say he won't talk to anyone but Julia and not unless she puts her makeup on?


----------



## IFocus

Starcraftmazter said:


> Anything and everything the government does interferes in private lives...
> 
> I don't disagree about parties needing to warn people before being elected, but it's rather difficult and inefficient. It would be better if the public was simply polled for every policy initiative separately.




LOL hilarious the mob here think pokies are wonderful (libertarian what rubbish, lets release / legalise a few more additive habits)and would rather argue the politics rather that the findings of the productivity commission that its really screwing the lives of a lot of people.


----------



## nulla nulla

IFocus said:


> LOL hilarious the mob here think pokies are wonderful (libertarian what rubbish, lets release / legalise a few more additive habits)and would rather argue the politics rather that the findings of the productivity commission that its really screwing the lives of a lot of people.




Finaly a voice of reason. Alcohol, Smoking and Poker machines. Huge money spinners in the economy, huge sources of tax revenue and incredible drains on the community through health, poverty and crime. 

Maybe we should legalise marijuana and herion as well because to deny users access to their prefered drug is an infringement on civil liberties. Get real.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> LOL hilarious the mob here think pokies are wonderful



What an utterly illogical, silly interpretation of the assertion that people should be free to choose how they spend their money.   So typical of the Left's inability to mount a logical argument.

I personally find pokies total nonsense, have no interest in them whatsoever.  But I acknowledge that many people have some fun with them.  In some regional towns it's probably the only 'entertainment' available.

I've also facilitated a support group for addicted pokie gamblers and am only too aware that if they couldn't play the stupid pokies they would be gambling in some other arena.   It's not the machines that are the problem.  It's the personal problems of particular people who find diversion from their boring lives in the promise of a nirvana when they strike that great jackpot.  The same people are usually also addicted to alcohol and nicotine, often the horses as well.


----------



## moXJO

Don't forget to ban sugar, junk food, white flour, cars or anything else that might wreck peoples lives.  Maybe mother government can wipe your ar$es as well so you don't put your fingers in your mouth cause you are too stupid to know the effects of it (plus might be addictive for you)

you losers would have it so we couldn't move.


----------



## lindsayf

Julia said:


> What an utterly illogical, silly interpretation of the assertion that people should be free to choose how they spend their money.   So typical of the Left's inability to mount a logical argument.
> 
> I personally find pokies total nonsense, have no interest in them whatsoever.  But I acknowledge that many people have some fun with them.  In some regional towns it's probably the only 'entertainment' available.
> 
> I've also facilitated a support group for addicted pokie gamblers and am only too aware that if they couldn't play the stupid pokies they would be gambling in some other arena.   It's not the machines that are the problem.  It's the personal problems of particular people who find diversion from their boring lives in the promise of a nirvana when they strike that great jackpot.  The same people are usually also addicted to alcohol and nicotine, often the horses as well.




Julia
I hear that assertion a lot - ie that if it wasnt the pokies it would certainly be another form of gambling.  The club lobby pushed that line a lot.  It may be true for some.  I have not seen any credible research that this kind of substitution is real and measurable.  The vast majority of problem gamblers are still pokies players.  I dont find this line of reasoning convincing at all as some kind of defense to do nothing about pokies.  I agree that there are certainly 'boring lives' but also traumatised lives that play into the pokies siren.


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> What an utterly illogical, silly interpretation of the assertion that people should be free to choose how they spend their money.   So typical of the Left's inability to mount a logical argument.




Your statement is illogical and fails to mount a logical argument .



> I personally find pokies total nonsense, have no interest in them whatsoever.
> 
> But I acknowledge that many people have some fun with them.  In some regional towns it's probably the only 'entertainment' available.
> 
> I've also facilitated a support group for addicted pokie gamblers and am only too aware that if they couldn't play the stupid pokies they would be gambling in some other arena.   It's not the machines that are the problem.  It's the personal problems of particular people who find diversion from their boring lives in the promise of a nirvana when they strike that great jackpot.  The same people are usually also addicted to alcohol and nicotine, often the horses as well.




From the pokies thread this post basically stop the discussion.

 Apologies for off topic.



> Cut pasted relevant parts of Tim Costello's article if any one can dispute his claims feel free to do so coming from WA I just find it mind boggling how people argue the political debate rather than the issue.






> Abbott has chosen to fill this space with his predict BS statement.






> After a decade of research and a comprehensive report by the Productivity Commission, we know the answers to address why 40 per cent of all profits come from problem gambling.






> After illicit drugs, pokies are the second greatest contributor to crime.
> Some 86 per cent of problem gambling in Australia is from pokies.
> Australia has the highest loss machines in the world - it is possible to lose over $1,200 an hour on modern machines.






> The 2008 Productivity Commission into gambling estimated that problem gamblers lose an average of $21,000 a year gambling - and that the social cost of problem gambling is at least $4.7 billion per year.






> Supporters of pokies reform are not interested in stopping people enjoying recreational gambling. The reforms currently proposed will barely impact on the majority of players.






> While you may have missed it in the clubs' misinformation campaign, the Wilkie scheme does not require pre-commitment for lower loss machines, which have maximum bets of $1 per spin and have an average hourly loss of $120 and consequently do less damage.






> Mandatory pre-commitment will only apply to those high-loss machines that are causing the most damage.






> In Western Australia, the absence of pokies has not resulted in an increase in online gambling






> In fact, WA has mainland Australia's highest recreation and sports participation rates. NSW in contrast has the lowest.






> only 2.7 per cent of pokie profits go to supporting community and sporting groups.
> WA does not depend on exploiting weak and vulnerable people to achieve community activity.






> Mr Abbott's solution to this problem of "more counselling" is not supported by the evidence. The Productivity Commission found that only 15 per cent of problem gamblers seek help.






> The recent polling of public support for pokies reform is encouraging. The more than 60 per cent public support, despite a $20 million misinformation campaign by Clubs Australia, shows that Australians know vested interest when they see it.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Apologies for off topic.



I hope you're not a Dockers supporter as well.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus, I would love nothing more than to agree with you.
But my sons work and live in mining towns work $hit loads of hours and have to drive 1hr in 1hr out 12hr shift. 
All for $/hr no penalties no time and a half for the first two hrs then double time. No time and a half for saturday double time for sunday.
So basically it ends up a 60 hr week for $40-50/hr. These are the guys labor are hitting for being fat cats. 
Maybe if Julia tried a bit of the fly in fly out she wouldn't be a fat cat.
 Maybe if she payed rent in these towns or bought food in these towns. She would realise they aren't any better off than people in the cities on a normal wage.
Actually Ifocus, don't know how old you are but if you are under 70 I'm sure I could get you a job.
May affect any dissability pension or normal pension your getting, but as labor says we have to get you back to work.LOL,LOL,LOL
Or maybe TPI, we can get you off that,. 15hrs a week is a lolipop man 1.5 morning 1.5 afternoon $20/hr. Thats $600/ fortnight gets you off the disabilityLOL,LOL
Hope youve put yourself down, they are screaming out for lolliop people, zimmer frame o.k, just wave the flag.LOL,LOL
Lets race to the bottom.


----------



## Starcraftmazter

Julia said:


> What an utterly illogical, silly interpretation of the assertion that people should be free to choose how they spend their money.




So they should be able to buy guns, nuclear weapons, child prostitutes - that sort of thing?



Julia said:


> So typical of the Left's inability to mount a logical argument.




So typical of you to label your opposition as belonging to a certain "wing" of politics instead of mounting a coherent argument 

This is apart from the fact that it is far more typical of right wing to restrict personal liberties with the excuse of morality or whatnot. Take marijuana for instance - are you going to complain about the right's inability to ledge a coherent argument against it?


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> IFocus, I would love nothing more than to agree with you.
> But my sons work and live in mining towns work $hit loads of hours and have to drive 1hr in 1hr out 12hr shift.
> All for $/hr no penalties no time and a half for the first two hrs then double time. No time and a half for saturday double time for sunday.
> So basically it ends up a 60 hr week for $40-50/hr. These are the guys labor are hitting for being fat cats.
> Maybe if Julia tried a bit of the fly in fly out she wouldn't be a fat cat.
> Maybe if she payed rent in these towns or bought food in these towns. She would realise they aren't any better off than people in the cities on a normal wage.
> Actually Ifocus, don't know how old you are but if you are under 70 I'm sure I could get you a job.
> May affect any dissability pension or normal pension your getting, but as labor says we have to get you back to work.LOL,LOL,LOL
> Or maybe TPI, we can get you off that,. 15hrs a week is a lolipop man 1.5 morning 1.5 afternoon $20/hr. Thats $600/ fortnight gets you off the disabilityLOL,LOL
> Hope youve put yourself down, they are screaming out for lolliop people, zimmer frame o.k, just wave the flag.LOL,LOL
> Lets race to the bottom.




sptrawler please post when your sober..............


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

IFocus said:


> sptrawler please post when your sober..............




What a demeaning response, you just don't get the reality of how much strife the ALP has created for workers.

gg


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> sptrawler please post when your sober..............




Will do. LOL
The fact still remains, labor have lost the plot with regard a normal wage. 
Also the point I was making about disability pensions, I realise it is open to rorting, however 15hrs a week is ridiculously low. As I said cross walk attendants do 15hrs a week but their pay is too low to live on and the dole is a lot lower than disability.
It is just another tax saving rort by labor on the ones who can least afford it.
Now were did I put that beer.LOL


----------



## IFocus

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What a demeaning response, you just don't get the reality of how much strife the ALP has created for workers.
> 
> gg




The only time the far right feel comfortable taking the high moral ground is when they can smell blood it over rides the guilt and shame LOL, as for the workers your good friend Gina has a plan for them and it unfortunately doesn't involve work.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> Will do. LOL
> The fact still remains, labor have lost the plot with regard a normal wage.




Shezzers Sptrawer you have to stop reading those eastern states rags they the call news. The US is where real wages have not moved from the 90's in real terms Howard tried to do the same here but I think the number is 37% improvement in real terms for Australia over the same period  quoted for the US. Keating reeled it off a few months back.





> Also the point I was making about disability pensions, I realise it is open to rorting, however 15hrs a week is ridiculously low. As I said cross walk attendants do 15hrs a week but their pay is too low to live on and the dole is a lot lower than disability.
> It is just another tax saving rort by labor on the ones who can least afford it.
> Now were did I put that beer.LOL




Only bit I understand here is about the beer


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Shezzers Sptrawer you have to stop reading those eastern states rags they the call news. The US is where real wages have not moved from the 90's in real terms Howard tried to do the same here but I think the number is 37% improvement in real terms for Australia over the same period  quoted for the US. Keating reeled it off a few months back




It is hard to compare countries, I went to Kal a couple of weeks back and stopped in Southern Cross. The barmaid was from the U.S on a working holiday and said she was heading back as soon as possible because she was having to use her savings to suppliment her pay to make ends meet.
She couldn't believe how expensive Australia is, she said accomadation, food, fuel is double the cost of the U.S.
We all know the disparity in the cost of cars, clothing, housing, electronics, as can be seen by the increase in internet purchases. I think $10/hr in the U.S goes a lot further than$17/hr here. From what I can find out renting in the U.K is about 100-120pnd/wk, the U.S $130-200/wk, here $300-400/wk.
As for Keating, under the wages accord, wages went down 18% in real terms, on his watch.LOL
Also I think you will find the big payrises came under Howard, I know they did in the trades.


----------



## So_Cynical

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What a demeaning response, you just don't get the reality of how much strife the ALP has created for workers.
> 
> gg




I'm a worker...im not in strife.

Sure your not just making **** up.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> I'm a worker...im not in strife.
> 
> Sure your not just making **** up.




I'm not in strife either, but i'm not on $17-20/hr and renting.


----------



## joea

Well this week I will be turning off the TV and, maybe read a book or check the market closer.

I just do not think I will be able to handle the utter from Gillard::
"Friends"
"Well now the distraction is over I can continue on  getting things done".
joea


----------



## Logique

In the background, Labor-Greens are quietly closing the two party preferred gap, despite electors still not warming to the PM. The time chart was in the media at the weekend, _The Insiders_ I think. Once the carbon tax compensation gets under way the gap will close further.


----------



## joea

Oscars from Bloody Monday.

Most moving and honest speech...... Albanese

Worst director........Hawker.

Most unbelievable speech....Gillard.

Most unbelievable story.....Arbid.

Best dressed........... Annabel Crabb

joea


----------



## Logique

Mutiny kills PM's Bob Carr plan   - Dennis Shanahan and Matthew Franklin From: The Australian February 29  - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ms-bob-carr-plan/story-fn59niix-1226284538034

Drafting Bob Carr? Has to be a 'what was she thinking' moment. Gillard thinks Bob Carr was a 'remarkable premier of NSW'   Ask anyone living outside the Sydney Basin!

What has Stephen Smith done to deserve such disrespect? A very capable Foreign Minister who graciously stepped aside for Rudd.

Also the disposal of Rudd hasn't seemed to halt the leaks and backgrounding of the media. Funny that..


----------



## Miss Hale

Logique said:


> Mutiny kills PM's Bob Carr plan   - Dennis Shanahan and Matthew Franklin From: The Australian February 29  - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ms-bob-carr-plan/story-fn59niix-1226284538034
> 
> Drafting Bob Carr? Has to be a 'what was she thinking' moment. Gillard thinks Bob Carr was a 'remarkable premier of NSW'   Ask anyone living outside the Sydney Basin!
> 
> What has Stephen Smith done to deserve such disrespect? A very capable Foreign Minister who graciously stepped aside for Rudd.
> 
> Also the disposal of Rudd hasn't seemed to halt the leaks and backgrounding of the media. Funny that..




Yes, why not Stephen Smith?  I am not a fan of many Labor MPs but he is definitely a good one IMO and was (and should be again) a very capapble Foreign Minister.


----------



## Julia

Radio National's Breakfast program this morning had a discussion about who should be Foreign Minister with Bruce Haigh and Hugh White.  Neither of them were impressed with Stephen Smith in the position and think he'd be better left in Defence where he's doing a pretty good job.

I like Stephen Smith with his calm demeanour, politeness but perhaps he doesn't quite have the strength of personality to engage in the pretty heavy international negotiations often required for the position?  I don't know.

They agreed that Bob Carr would have been good but thought the politics of parachuting him in over existing cabinet members would have created more mayhem.
Anyway, it's not on, apparently.

I don't know how much weight should be given to these two commentators.  I've always had respect for Hugh White but don't know much about Mr Haigh.
One of them suggested Penny Wong could be an effective Foreign Minister.
Any views on this?  It struck me as pretty 'out there'.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> I don't know how much weight should be given to these two commentators.  I've always had respect for Hugh White but don't know much about Mr Haigh.
> One of them suggested Penny Wong could be an effective Foreign Minister.
> Any views on this?  It struck me as pretty 'out there'.




It does hit you at first but actually it is a good idea. She's now the minister for finance and deregulation which could be done by someone else and as foreign minister she's not going to be the show off the Rudd was.  

Defence needs Stephen Smith as it has been mismanaged for a very long time and he is doing a lot to clean it up. Bob Carr is all "I look intelligent" but he is mostly bluster in my opinion.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> They agreed that Bob Carr would have been good but thought the politics of parachuting him in over existing cabinet members would have created more mayhem.
> Anyway, it's not on, apparently.




Gillard's new assertiveness is a fizzer.



> Any views on this?  It struck me as pretty 'out there'.




Wong? Does she speak Mandarin? She is quite fluent on gay marriage. She could be a big hit in diplomatic circles. She would certainly have a rapport with Hilary Clinton


----------



## dutchie

The reason the Labor govt. can't get its message across is because:-

1. Most of their policies turn to cr@p.
2. They spend a lot of time spinning 1.
3. They spend a lot of time blaming Tony for all their self inflicted problems.
4. They spend a lot of time saying how bad Tony will be as a Prime Minister (although they never back up this mantra with any facts).


----------



## dutchie

If they were going to resurrect Carr for Foreign Affairs and he knocked it back what about Mark Latham - he would put all those "foreigners" in their place!

Can you imagine him shaking hands with all those dignitaries


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> The reason the Labor govt. can't get its message across is because:-
> 
> 1. Most of their policies turn to cr@p.
> 2. They spend a lot of time spinning 1.
> 3. They spend a lot of time blaming Tony for all their self inflicted problems.
> 4. They spend a lot of time saying how bad Tony will be as a Prime Minister (although they never back up this mantra with any facts).




dutchie
I think you have summed it up.
I would like to add a couple.
3a They blame Tony for their next problem.(the one that has not happened yet)
3b They use the second sentence of any, and all explanations, of all topics, blaming Tony. It is either a virus or a brainwash!!!! but they must be s##t scared of him getting into power and finding out the correct bottom line of debt, and the correct unemployment figures.
joea


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> ...One of them suggested Penny Wong could be an effective Foreign Minister. Any views on this?  It struck me as pretty 'out there'.



Young baby there, so she wouldn't like the travel. Apart from that, I like the idea.


----------



## Calliope

Bob Brown nearly comes clean.



> Freudian slip? Bob Brown, Monday:
> 
> THE Greens are getting on with the hard work of gover -- helping the governance of this country, and we feel very strong about this.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-one-vote-wonder/story-fn72xczz-1226284416768


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> If they were going to resurrect Carr for Foreign Affairs and he knocked it back what about Mark Latham - he would put all those "foreigners" in their place!
> 
> Can you imagine him shaking hands with all those dignitaries


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> Bob Brown nearly comes clean.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-one-vote-wonder/story-fn72xczz-1226284416768




That was no slip, Bob was just stating what we all know.LOL,LOL


----------



## Calliope

It wont be long before  the slimy, slippery, lying Gillard will be caught out misleading parliament.



> Gillard had folded at the first test of her new assertiveness. Her second mistake was to dismiss The Australian's report on Wednesday of the events as "completely untrue" though The Sydney Morning Herald online had broken a version of the story on Tuesday about 10.30am, and Carr had already responded to questions about the welshed deal on Wednesday morning.










http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...er-who-never-was/story-e6frg75f-1226286606441


----------



## Logique

Bob Carr is a huge Americophile. 

He would have saved us a packet on travel expenses - Washington, New York, LA, Yellowstone, Yosemite, Washington, New York, LA....in a closed loop.


----------



## pilots

Whats the bet that Bob Carr will be PM soon??????????????????


----------



## McLovin

pilots said:


> Whats the bet that Bob Carr will be PM soon??????????????????




The Constitution might have an issue with that...


----------



## Miss Hale

Good grief!  Bob Carr _*is *_to be Foreign Minister afterall, just been announced, I am gobsmacked


----------



## joea

Miss Hale said:


> Good grief!  Bob Carr _*is *_to be Foreign Minister afterall, just been announced, I am gobsmacked




Well I reckon our Julia will  help consume  an expensive bottle of red tonight.

She played "mind games " with the media and won.

joea


----------



## Knobby22

Miss Hale said:


> Good grief!  Bob Carr _*is *_to be Foreign Minister afterall, just been announced, I am gobsmacked




I am too!
The press got it wrong...Gillard showed she had control but who leaked the "partial story". Is someone is still out to get her within the Cabinet? and Rudd can't be blamed. Also,why did she deny it? Panic?    

Gee she must be wondering who the new "bastard" is... I feel a bit sorry for her.


----------



## DB008

Now that was a blatant lie if l ever saw one!


----------



## Logique

Probably just easier to just appoint Carr to Senate/Foreign Minister than have the Opposition pursue the PM for misleading Parliament, and/or saying falsehoods.

I'll tell you who may be feeling nervous right now - Peter Garrett, Member for Kingsford Smith. Not only Kristina Keneally, but now Bob Carr, both potentially eyeing off that safe Reps seat - it's hard to be PM from the Senate. Cheryl and Maxine are waiting for you Peter. 

Also possibly feeling a little miffed, the ACTU and Bill Shorten, who may have thought it would all fall into their laps.

Julia Gillard might be turning into a leader after all.


----------



## dutchie

So Bob Carr is FM today.

Will he be tomorrow?


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Also possibly feeling a little miffed, the ACTU and Bill Shorten, who may have thought it would all fall into their laps.



 Stephen Smith also has plenty of reason to feel miffed.  Was he amongst the Gillard supporters in the ballot with Rudd?  I think he was, and if so he will hardly be feeling his loyalty was being rewarded.

McClelland is taking today to discuss his relegation to the back bench with his family.
Hopefully he'll be sufficiently annoyed to resign and cause a by-election.

I wonder how the rest of the 'team' will feel about Bob Carr being parachuted in for FM?
Not great, I suspect.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Stephen Smith also has plenty of reason to feel miffed.  Was he amongst the Gillard supporters in the ballot with Rudd?  I think he was, and if so he will hardly be feeling his loyalty was being rewarded.




Stephen Smith (now known as SS in defence) probably wanted to stay there and achieve something. They have had too many ministers on this portfolio to put another one in charge.

With McClelland, good to see Gillard demoting someone for a change, shows she is going to be tougher.

Putting Bob Carr as foreign minister does appear to show her lack of faith in some of her front bench though. At least he is a cleanskin.


----------



## MrBurns

Bob Carr seems like a nice bloke compared with the rest of that crummy bunch.
But she cant help telling fibs can she, big ones small ones it's all the same no carbon tax, you're ok Kevin etc etc I havent spoken to Bob Carr, the lies just keep rolling out.


----------



## Logique

Knobby22 said:


> Stephen Smith (now known as SS in defence) probably wanted to stay there and achieve something. They have had too many ministers on this portfolio to put another one in charge...



Yes I think it was about stability there, 3 Ministers in 4 years or something similar, and a possible perceived slight by the dept.


----------



## DB008

**Off-topic**
I know that this is off topic, but have a look at some of the posters that are going up on Sydney Uni/Tafe campuses.
I snapped this one off this afternoon....


----------



## McLovin

DB008 said:


> **Off-topic**
> I know that this is off topic, but have a look at some of the posters that are going up on Sydney Uni/Tafe campuses.
> I snapped this one off this afternoon....
> 
> View attachment 46277




It's nice to know some things never change.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Stephen Smith also has plenty of reason to feel miffed.  Was he amongst the Gillard supporters in the ballot with Rudd?  I think he was, and if so he will hardly be feeling his loyalty was being rewarded.
> 
> McClelland is taking today to discuss his relegation to the back bench with his family.
> Hopefully he'll be sufficiently annoyed to resign and cause a by-election.
> 
> I wonder how the rest of the 'team' will feel about Bob Carr being parachuted in for FM?
> Not great, I suspect.




It looks like McClelland will hang about hoping to see Rudd back again and then he will be rewarded with a Ministry. I am not sure how he will go if there is another contender to challange Gillard.

Yes, with Carr now in, I would say there will be plenty of trouble for Miss Gillard.


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> Yes, with Carr now in, I would say there will be plenty of trouble for Miss Gillard.




I think she's not only stuffed it for Labor, no one will vote for a woman as PM again for eons.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...McClelland is taking today to discuss his relegation to the back bench with his family.
> Hopefully he'll be sufficiently annoyed to resign and cause a by-election....




Or better still he might resign from the labor party and sit on the cross benches as an independent and take his revenge by blocking supply...

Oh well, we can only hope...


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> I think she's not only stuffed it for Labor, no one will vote for a woman as PM again for eons.




Welcome back Mr Burns. You have been gone for 28 months, and the lack your insightful contributions has been the forum's loss.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Welcome back Mr Burns. You have been gone for 28 months, and the lack your insightful contributions has been the forum's loss.




Many thanks Calliope  back by the good grace of Joe and glad the be here, I promise not to be good


----------



## Eager

sails said:


> Or better still he might resign from the labor party and sit on the cross benches as an independent and take his revenge by blocking supply...
> 
> Oh well, we can only hope...



McClelland has publicly stated that he fully expected the demotion, therefore he will be happy enough to serve from there. Is it impossible for conservatives to take that at face value????


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> McClelland has publicly stated that he fully expected the demotion, therefore he will be happy enough to serve from there. Is it impossible for conservatives to take that at face value????



Fair comment, Eager.  I suppose when he joined Team Rudd he would have done so in the knowledge that he was already a bit on the outer with the PM, and his demotion was more or less expected.  
I quite admire those people who (however misguidedly) threw their lot in with Rudd.
They must have known they'd not be on the winning side, but were still prepared to do themselves in as far as Gillard was concerned.

Bob Carr will probably make a pretty good Foreign Minister.  I can't help contrasting him with Julia Gillard:  the urbane,  beautifully voiced and articulately spoken, quite cultured Carr against the Strine speaking roughie.


----------



## Julia

I've finally woken up to what Mark Arbib meant when he resigned saying not just the usual cliched stuff about wanting to spend more time with his family (how tired is that!),  but then saying that he was resigning in the hope it would help Labor heal.

No one seemed to know what he meant by this latter remark.

Obviously, the plan all along was to recruit Bob Carr into the Senate so he could from there be Foreign Minister.   Mark Arbib has been the patsy who has given up his job in order to create the vacancy for Carr to take and thus facilitate the greater plan for Labor.

It all makes sense now.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> It all makes sense now.




It does, politics is rubbish.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

MrBurns said:


> It does, politics is rubbish.




Welcome back Burnsie, I trust the gaolers in Zimbabwe showed some kindness to you.
Here in Oz with the Government it's same old, same old.

gg


----------



## So_Cynical

Calliope ]
Welcome back Mr Burns. You have been gone for 28 months said:


> Many thanks Calliope  back by the good grace of Joe and glad the be here, I promise not to be good




Oh you have been missed all right.  like we didn't have enough posters spewing extremist right wing views.


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Welcome back Burnsie, I trust the gaolers in Zimbabwe showed some kindness to you.
> Here in Oz with the Government it's same old, same old.
> gg




Good to see familiar faces again, thanks for the welcome GG, I was whipped a little but I quite liked it


----------



## MrBurns

So_Cynical said:


> Oh you have been missed all right.  like we didn't have enough posters spewing extremist right wing views.




Well that little problem is easily fixed.


----------



## dutchie

So_Cynical said:


> Oh you have been missed all right.  like we didn't have enough posters spewing extremist right wing views.




Its Abbotts fault that there are so many of us.


(nothing whatsoever to do with this govts' ineptitude)


----------



## MrBurns

I hope that when Heir Gillard has finished sorting out her own future she might start thinking about us, I know it's fanciful thinking but a little attention prior to the weeks leading to an election would be appreciated.


----------



## bigdog

Confirms my long held belief that we go to the ballot box to vote in people to manage  our country that we wouldn`t employ in our own business.


 Quoted by: Ross Greenwood of Money News..

Right now the Federal Government is at pains to tell everyone - including us the mug-punters and the International  Monetary Fund, that it will not exceed its own, self-imposed, borrowing limits.

How much?    $200 billion.   And here's a worry. 


If you work in a bank's money market operation; or if you are a politician; the millions turn into billions and it rolls off the tip of the tongue a bit too easily. but every dollar that is borrowed, some time, has to be repaid. By you, by  me and by the rest of the country.

Just after 5 o'clock tonight I did a bit of math for Jason Morrison ( Sydney radio presenter). But it's so staggering its worth repeating now.

First thought; Gillard, Swan, Wong, before that Rudd, all of the Labor Cabinet, call these temporary borrowings, a temporary deficit.

Remember Those Words :  Temporary Deficit.

The total Government debt will end up around $200 billion.
So here's a very basic calculation  .. I used a home loan calculator to work it out..... it's that simple..
$200 billion is $2 hundred thousand million.

The current 10 year Government bond rate is 4.67 per cent. I worked the loan out over a period of 20 years. Now here's  where it gets scary .... really scary.

The repayments on $200 billion, come to more than one and a quarter billion dollars - every month - for 20 years. It works out we - as taxpayers - will be repaying $15.4 billion in interest and principal every year .. $733 for every man  woman and child - every year.

The total interest bill over the 20 years is - get this - $108 billion.

Remember, this is a Government, that just 4 years ago, had NO debt. NO debt.

In fact it had enough money to create the Future Fund, to pay the future liabilities of public servants' superannuation,  and it had enough to stick $20 billion into the Building Australia Fund ..... 

A note was sent to me which explains that the six leading members of the Government, from Ms Gillard down, have a collective work experience of 181 years, but only 13 in the private sector.

If you take out of those 13 years the number that were spent as trade union lawyers, 11, only two years were spent in the private sector.

So out of those 181 years:

- no years spent running their own business   
- no years spent starting their own business
- no years spent as a director of a family business or a company
- no years as a director of a public company
- no years in a senior position in a public company
- no years in a senior position in a private company
- no years working in corporate finance 
- no years in corporate or business restructuring
- no years working in or with a bank
- no years of experience in the capital markets
- no years in a stock-broking firm
- no years in negotiating debt facilities with banks
- no years running a small business
- no years at the World Bank or IMF or OECD
- no years in Treasury or Finance.

But these people have plunged Australia into unprecedented debt.

Well, in a way you can't blame them.
It's clear the electorate did not do their homework, because the Government is there by right.

Ah, but they are Labor and people vote for them because Labor is good for the working family - right???

If you have read this you may like to pass it on to your friends to help educate a little as you, them and I, will be  repaying the above.


----------



## MrBurns

bigdog said:


> Confirms my long held belief that we go to the ballot box to vote in people to manage  our country that we wouldn`t employ in our own business.




Gillard and Labor are there for their own advancement, thats it, give portfoios to supporters with absolutely no thought as to their qualifications.

This is where democracy fails, we should have the board of BHP running the country not polititians.

And to add insult to injury after they're thrown out they will retire on generous Parliamentary pensions also paid by us and wallow in their own past "glory" for the rest of their lives.

Just think of Julia Gillard, think hard about what sort of person she is, think now ......... and she is the *Prime Minister of Australia*, how the hell did this ever happen


----------



## pilots

Welcome back Mr B, you can bet your last $ we will never see the ALP back in power in our life time.


----------



## MrBurns

pilots said:


> Welcome back Mr B, you can bet your last $ we will never see the ALP back in power in our life time.




Thanks pilots,  good to be back, and I hope you're right.


----------



## DB008

Bigdog, l just did a google on it and came back with this one.

http://www.myaccountants.com.au/databasephp/webresourceuploads/200905211141030.Website%20version%20-%20Ross%20Greenwood%20from%20Money%20News%20discusses%20Australian%20Government%20Debt%20190509.pdf

View attachment 200905211141030.Website version - Ross Greenwood from Money News discusses Australian Government.pdf


----------



## Knobby22

Aww, I hope you guys live longer than that!


----------



## sptrawler

Well it is about time some of these comentators woke up to themselves. How the hell they can keep talking up the goon show, when, like Greenwood says they have gone from no debt to $200billion in 4 years is unbelievable.
What is more unbeleivable is how posters on here hold onto their belief in this appalling lot, when they know the facts. The general public can, to a certain degree, be excused because the media don't ever tell the situation as it is.


----------



## joea

Hi.
It was my understanding that shortly the limit to Labors borrowing was going to be lifted another $50 bullion.
Not long ago I read that Hockey said they would oppose it. Cannot remember in what paper.

In reference to those post that refer to the current Governments position, and will the voters understand where we are heading.
One would assume that the polls would  be going against Gillard, but this does not seem to be the case.
Obviously she is buying votes, with the money she is spending.

In our area there are LNP B-B-Q'S on this weekend for the state election.
So my thoughts are, we have to get the state election over with a significant loss to Labor then move on from there. Knock over Labor in Federal, then knock out the Greens in the Senate.
joea


----------



## dutchie

Its like those rogue traders.....

"Its not my money so who gives a ****!"


----------



## dutchie

Julia said:


> Stephen Smith also has plenty of reason to feel miffed.  Was he amongst the Gillard supporters in the ballot with Rudd?  I think he was, and if so he will hardly be feeling his loyalty was being rewarded.
> 
> McClelland is taking today to discuss his relegation to the back bench with his family.
> Hopefully he'll be sufficiently annoyed to resign and cause a by-election.
> 
> I wonder how the rest of the 'team' will feel about Bob Carr being parachuted in for FM?
> Not great, I suspect.




Of all the boneheads in this govt. I had a little time for Stephen Smith but he has deceived me. He should have been returned to the FM position. But he has no backbone and is just weak.


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> One would assume that the polls would  be going against Gillard, but this does not seem to be the case.
> Obviously she is buying votes, with the money she is spending.
> 
> joea




I believe the reason she is doing o.k in the polls is she keeps harping on that they will bring the budget to surplus. The general public is thinking that means they are out of debt.
What Abbot needs to do is start and tell the public how much debt we have on board due to these goons.
Also how long it will take to feasably get back to where we were 5 years ago.


----------



## MrBurns

I think Tony will have to go, he's not popular, has an awkward manner, I personally don't mind him at all he might well be a great PM but when you're neck and neck with the worst PM in our history you have to face up to the reality of it.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> I think Tony will have to go, he's not popular, has an awkward manner, I personally don't mind him at all he might well be a great PM but when you're neck and neck with the worst PM in our history you have to face up to the reality of it.




That all very true MrBurns, however gillard is a difficult match up, she is like a school marm, she doesn't listen, has a hide of a rhino a real nasty streak.
Very hard to ague with her, Abbott is the only one she is wary of. Turnbull is popular but is too wishy washy and in reality only appeals to labor people who want to vote liberal.
The litmus test is going to be the Queensland election, an unknown liberal against a standing labor premier. The outcome of that will be a precurser to the federal election and I think both parties know it, big time.
If labour do well Abbott is in manure, if labour get creamed it will be panic stations for the back benchers.


----------



## DB008

Government Budget Website

http://www.budget.gov.au/



> The Budget will get back to surplus in 2012-13 as planned, get more people into jobs and spread the opportunities from Mining Boom Mark II to more Australians.
> 
> Key elements include:
> Taking the tough decisions necessary to ensure the budget returns to surplus in 2012-13, despite the impact of recent natural disasters.
> 
> Continuing to invest in the economy’s productive capacity through better and more targeted skills and training, and new measures to boost participation and improve private sector opportunities to invest in infrastructure.
> 
> Putting the opportunities that flow from a stronger economy within the reach of more Australians, by delivering on key reforms to mental health, extra support for families with teenagers and low income earners and investing in critical regional health and education infrastructure.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_national_debt


> The Gross Australian federal debt as at 30 September 2011 was AUD$208.992 billion, with a net debt position of $80 billion, or 6% of GDP. [Total Commonwealth Government Securities on Issue] Australian federal budget.[5]


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> I believe the reason she is doing o.k in the polls is she keeps harping on that they will bring the budget to surplus. The general public is thinking that means they are out of debt.
> What Abbot needs to do is start and tell the public how much debt we have on board due to these goons.
> Also how long it will take to feasably get back to where we were 5 years ago.




Whats the difference?


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> I think Tony will have to go, he's not popular, has an awkward manner, I personally don't mind him at all he might well be a great PM but when you're neck and neck with the worst PM in our history you have to face up to the reality of it.




And I think there lies the problem, the LNP voters are waiting for it to get better, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting......
The voters who follow politics, are aware that something must change in the LNP camp, but for some reason they have no new ideas, or do they?
Surely those advising can see this!!! Something tells me it is limited.
The more people I speak to want Turnbull. I just do not see him as a PM, but have him involved in economics and Broadband etc.
joea


----------



## MrBurns

Libs have got time up their sleeve before they have to face the leadership question but Turnbull is the obvious alternative though I agree he is wishy washy.

Qld election will be skewed by Bligh's popularity after the floods, be interesting to see what happens there.


----------



## Knobby22

MrBurns said:


> Libs have got time up their sleeve before they have to face the leadership question but Turnbull is the obvious alternative though I agree he is wishy washy.
> 
> Qld election will be skewed by Bligh's popularity after the floods, be interesting to see what happens there.




If Turnbull got up he would get the disillusioned Labor voters in droves.
It would probably be the biggest Liberal win in history.

But I can't see Tony getting the boot, and he will win anyway.


----------



## Eager

It has been interesting reading your posts since returning from your exile, self imposed or otherwise, Mr Burns. You seem to be held in high esteem; the prodigal son. But you are nothing to me.


MrBurns said:


> I hope that when Heir Gillard has finished sorting out her own future she might start thinking about us, I know it's fanciful thinking but a little attention prior to the weeks leading to an election would be appreciated.



I was howled down during the week for suggesting that Abbott is not capable of thinking beyond the ALP, and that he needed to inspire the people with something beyond negativity. The membership here suggested that he didn't have to release any policy until the election is called. But, you want Gillard to keep on providing fresh policy, viz. paying attention to the people. So, let me borrow and slightly modify your words, and I will leave it up to you to explain why you should be allowed to remain above criticism, but I, not:

_I hope that when Heir Abbott has finished sorting out his own future he might start thinking about us, I know it's fanciful thinking but a little attention prior to the weeks leading to an election would be appreciated._


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> But, you want Gillard to keep on providing fresh policy, viz. paying attention to the people.




That's what governments are supposed to do. Perhaps you think she should pay more attention to the party.:shake:


----------



## Miss Hale

Eager said:


> It has been interesting reading your posts since returning from your exile, self imposed or otherwise, Mr Burns. You seem to be held in high esteem; the prodigal son. But you are nothing to me.
> 
> I was howled down during the week for suggesting that Abbott is not capable of thinking beyond the ALP, and that he needed to inspire the people with something beyond negativity. The membership here suggested that he didn't have to release any policy until the election is called. But, you want Gillard to keep on providing fresh policy, viz. paying attention to the people. So, let me borrow and slightly modify your words, and I will leave it up to you to explain why you should be allowed to remain above criticism, but I, not:
> 
> _I hope that when Heir Abbott has finished sorting out his own future he might start thinking about us, I know it's fanciful thinking but a little attention prior to the weeks leading to an election would be appreciated._




The thing is, Labor are currently *in* govenment so there is more responsibility on them to provide policies etc, afterall if they don't, what are they doing when they are supposed to be running the country?  The other thing is, what is happening now is not in the control of the opposition, policies they may formulate at the present time may go out the window if actions taken buy the current government change the status quo, therefore, IMO, apart from broad policy directions, there is no point in the opposition developing detailed policies until an election is called and they know exactly what they will have to face if they are elected to govern.  In short, I think the expectations in terms of poicy are justifiably lower for an opposition than a government.


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> But you are nothing to me.




Nice to meet you Eager and may I begin by saying that you are nothing to me either.

As the remaining Labor suporter anywhere which must call into question your sanity I say this - Abbott is in opposition he doesnt have to do anything yet and as far as being negative is concerned I suggest you try and find anything to be positive about with the Govt.

Of course they could stand on their record, lets see now - 

Top  50 Labor Reforms or A Socialist Contribution to Growing Lemons (All within the last 5 years)

1.. Carbon Tax – “There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead.”
2.. Nation Broadband Network – $50 billion but no cost-benefit analysis
3.. Building the Education Revolution – The school halls fiasco
4.. Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) – Dumped after deaths and injuries
5. Citizens Assembly – Dumped
6.. Cash for Clunkers – Dumped
7.. Hospital Reform – Nothing
8.. Digital set-top boxes – Cheaper at Harvey Norman and now going obsolete
9.. Emissions Trading Scheme – Abandoned
10. Mining Tax – Continuing uncertainty for our miners
11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia – A massive over-reaction that decimated the cattle industry and transport industry in Northern Australia
12. Detention Centres – Riots & massive cost blow-outs
13. East Timor ‘solution’ – Announced before agreed
14. Malaysia ‘solution’ – Scrapped because Malaysia not a signatory to UN Human Rights Charter
15. Manus Island ‘solution’ – On the backburner
16.. Computers in Schools – $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered
17. Cutting Red Tape – 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed
18. Asia Pacific Community – Another expensive Rudd frolic. Going nowhere
19. Green Loans Program – Abandoned. Only 3.5% of promised loans delivered
20. Solar Homes & Communities plan – Shut down after $534 million blow out
21. Green Car Innovation Fund – Abandoned
22. Solar Credits Scheme – Scaled back
23. Green Start Program – Scrapped
24. Retooling for Climate Change Program – Abolished
25. Childcare Centres – Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered
26. Take a “meat axe”’ to the Public Service – 24,000 more public servants added
27. Murray Darling Basin Plan – back to the drawing board
28. 2020 Summit – Meaningless talkfest
29. Tax Summit – Deferred and downgraded
30. Population Policy – Sets no targets
31. Fuel Watch – Abandoned
32. Grocery Choice – Abandoned
33. $900 Stimulus cheques – Sent to dead people and overseas residents. The majority spent on flat screen TV's and fast food.
34. Foreign Policy – In turmoil with Kevin (747) Rudd running riot flying around the world spending more than the US Secretary of State
35. National Schools Solar Program – Closing two years early
36. Solar Hot Water Rebate – Abandoned
37. Oceanic Viking – Caved in
38. GP Super Clinics – 64 promised, only 11 operational
39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics – 12 promised, none delivered
40. Trade Training Centres – 2650 promised, 70 operational
41. Bid for UN Security Council seat – An expensive Rudd frolic
42.. My School Website – Revamped but problems continue
43. National Curriculum – States in uproar
44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House – 99% of small businesses reject it
45. Indigenous Housing Program – way behind schedule
46. Rudd Bank – Went nowhere        
47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for Defence uniforms – Ditched
48. Innovation Ambassadors Program – junked
49. Six Submarines – none operational
50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion and rising – to pay for all of this and much more

There we go, what a pack of socialist looters, get out and stay out !!!


----------



## dutchie

Top 50 Labor Reforms or A Socialist Contribution to Growing Lemons (All within the last 5 years)

1.. Carbon Tax – “There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead.”
2.. Nation Broadband Network – $50 billion but no cost-benefit analysis
3.. Building the Education Revolution – The school halls fiasco
4.. Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) – Dumped after deaths and injuries
5. Citizens Assembly – Dumped
6.. Cash for Clunkers – Dumped
7.. Hospital Reform – Nothing
8.. Digital set-top boxes – Cheaper at Harvey Norman and now going obsolete
9.. Emissions Trading Scheme – Abandoned
10. Mining Tax – Continuing uncertainty for our miners
11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia – A massive over-reaction that decimated the cattle industry and transport industry in Northern Australia
12. Detention Centres – Riots & massive cost blow-outs
13. East Timor ‘solution’ – Announced before agreed
14. Malaysia ‘solution’ – Scrapped because Malaysia not a signatory to UN Human Rights Charter
15. Manus Island ‘solution’ – On the backburner
16.. Computers in Schools – $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered
17. Cutting Red Tape – 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed
18. Asia Pacific Community – Another expensive Rudd frolic. Going nowhere
19. Green Loans Program – Abandoned. Only 3.5% of promised loans delivered
20. Solar Homes & Communities plan – Shut down after $534 million blow out
21. Green Car Innovation Fund – Abandoned
22. Solar Credits Scheme – Scaled back
23. Green Start Program – Scrapped
24. Retooling for Climate Change Program – Abolished
25. Childcare Centres – Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered
26. Take a “meat axe”’ to the Public Service – 24,000 more public servants added
27. Murray Darling Basin Plan – back to the drawing board
28. 2020 Summit – Meaningless talkfest
29. Tax Summit – Deferred and downgraded
30. Population Policy – Sets no targets
31. Fuel Watch – Abandoned
32. Grocery Choice – Abandoned
33. $900 Stimulus cheques – Sent to dead people and overseas residents. The majority spent on flat screen TV's and fast food.
34. Foreign Policy – In turmoil with Kevin (747) Rudd running riot flying around the world spending more than the US Secretary of State
35. National Schools Solar Program – Closing two years early
36. Solar Hot Water Rebate – Abandoned
37. Oceanic Viking – Caved in
38. GP Super Clinics – 64 promised, only 11 operational
39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics – 12 promised, none delivered
40. Trade Training Centres – 2650 promised, 70 operational
41. Bid for UN Security Council seat – An expensive Rudd frolic
42.. My School Website – Revamped but problems continue
43. National Curriculum – States in uproar
44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House – 99% of small businesses reject it
45. Indigenous Housing Program – way behind schedule
46. Rudd Bank – Went nowhere
47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for Defence uniforms – Ditched
48. Innovation Ambassadors Program – junked
49. Six Submarines – none operational
50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion and rising – to pay for all of this and much more



But on the other hand and to be fair, Rudd did say sorry.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> Nice to meet you Eager and may I begin by saying that you are nothing to me either.



We're going to get along juuust fine. 



MrBurns said:


> As the remaining Labor suporter anywhere which must call into question your sanity I say this - Abbott is in opposition he doesnt have to do anything yet and as far as being negative is concerned I suggest you try and find anything to be positive about with the Govt.



It wouldn't matter if I suggested anything positive about the gov't or not, because plainly, it would be impossible for you to acknowledge it due to your blinkers. But being blinkered is not me, and some respectable members here can attest to that. 


MrBurns said:


> There we go, what a pack of socialist looters, get out and stay out !!!



I sincerely hope that you can find the correrct treatment for your anger management issues. Maybe you have come back too soon? Just concerned for your health, that's all. May I suggest a Bex and a good lie down.


----------



## Logique

bigdog said:


> ...The repayments on $200 billion, come to more than one and a quarter billion dollars - every month - for 20 years. It works out we - as taxpayers - will be repaying $15.4 billion in interest and principal every year .. *$733 for every man  woman and child - every year*.
> 
> The total interest bill over the 20 years is - get this - $108 billion.
> 
> Remember, this is a Government, that just 4 years ago, had NO debt. NO debt.
> 
> In fact it had enough money to create the Future Fund, to pay the future liabilities of public servants' superannuation,  and it had enough to stick $20 billion into the Building Australia Fund....



Great post Bigdog, some hard data applied. Mind you I could just be '..spewing extremist right wing views..'


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> We're going to get along juuust fine.
> I sincerely hope that you can find the correrct treatment for your anger management issues. Maybe you have come back too soon? Just concerned for your health, that's all. May I suggest a Bex and a good lie down.




It's not _my_ anger Eager, it's the anger of many millions of Australians. 

Anyway just go over the list, a few times, we could play pick the lie, or whats the biggest stuff up or what will this cost YOU and your kids for a long time to come, these vandalous actions don't come without consequences.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> But on the other hand and to be fair, Rudd did say sorry.




Yes that'll fix it


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> Yes that'll fix it




It didn't take you long to make enemies.That was a great list of Labor's failures. Perhaps Eager beaver will come up with a list of successes. He's the bloke who doesn't think it's the government's role to listen to the people. So that's one positive he could chalk up.


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> Whats the difference?




The difference is, government debt is how much they owe.
Getting the budget in surplus, means they are not blowing the debt out any further.
The problem still remains that the debt is still there and has to be payed back. As was the case last time labor were thrown out, then there was a $90billion debt.
As opposed to that, when Howard was thrown out there was zero debt, money in the future fund and a $20billion budget surplus. 
After 4 years we are back in $200billion+ debt with nothing to show for it and the government is hoping they can stop it blowing out further. 
Seems to me the difference is pretty clear.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> Anyway just go over the list, a few times, we could play pick the lie, or whats the biggest stuff up or what will this cost YOU and your kids for a long time to come, these vandalous actions don't come without consequences.



You forgot to add No.51, her grating, monotone voice!!!


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> It didn't take you long to make enemies..




Well you have to stick up for what you believe in, I think he was an enemy of anyone who isnt Labor anyway.


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> You forgot to add No.51, her grating, monotone voice!!!




Excellent, dont forget the mantras, she thinks no one will notice, but everyone hates it


----------



## IFocus

Nice to see Carr become FM clearly the best candidate available I see he rated a shambolic Abbott government  poorly as all do.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> Well you have to stick up for what you believe in, I think he was an enemy of anyone who isnt Labor anyway.



Absolutely incorrect; I have friends on both sides. Like I said earlier, I am not blinkered.

Mr Burns, I have taken the time to humour you. In response to your list:

1.. Carbon Tax - yes, a lie. Politicians do lie, y’know. It is not the end of the world.
2.. Nation Broadband Network – it is about time we had a go at catching up with Lithuania.
3.. Building the Education Revolution – apparently, by comparison, there will be no education under the coalition.
4.. Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) – Dumped after deaths and injuries due to coalition voting rogue small business proprietors rorting the system.
5. Citizens Assembly – Dumped. No big deal.
6.. Cash for Clunkers – Dumped, but a good idea at the time. Have you still got an LH Torana or something?
7.. Hospital Reform – Nothing yet.
8.. Digital set-top boxes – Cheaper at Harvey Norman and now going obsolete, but only if your Great Aunt can afford a new telly instead.
9.. Emissions Trading Scheme – Temporarily delayed, but it will take over from the Carbon Tax soon enough.
10. Mining Tax – Continuing uncertainty for our miners because Twiggy might actually have to pay tax, the poor dear.
11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia – An initial over-reaction that caused some disruption to the cattle and transport industry in Northern Australia, but nothing compared to the drop in quotas that everyone in the industry knew were coming anyway.
12. Detention Centres – Riots & massive cost blow-outs like any incarceration facility regardless of government.
13. East Timor ‘solution’ – Announced before agreed that it was a possibility...
14. Malaysia ‘solution’ – Scrapped because Malaysia not a signatory to UN Human Rights Charter, but even the opposition was sure it would get through at the time.
15. Manus Island ‘solution’ – On the backburner, but still there.
16.. Computers in Schools – $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered, but still far better than no computers in schools. 
17. Cutting Red Tape – 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed *[please cite]*
18. Asia Pacific Community – Big picture thinking, the likes of which the coalition are not capable of.
19. Green Loans Program – morphed into the Green Start program.
20. Solar Homes & Communities plan – Shut down after $534 million blow out due to phenomenal uptake; the people want to be green, y’see.
21. Green Car Innovation Fund – Abandoned to pay for natural disaster relief. That’s what governments should do; look after people in need at the time. You obviously disagree.
22. Solar Credits Scheme – Gradually scaled back as it was always going to be. STC’s still get paid at 3x until July 1. Don’t you have solar panels yet? Why not? 
23. Green Start Program – Scrapped due to the realisation of unmitigated risks, just as any responsible gov’t would. 
24. Retooling for Climate Change Program – Abolished in name only. I know for a fact that money is available for businesses to become greener through various State programs.
25. Childcare Centres – Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered, A Rudd initiative.
26. Take a “meat axe”’ to the Public Service – 24,000 more public servants added *[please cite]*
27. Murray Darling Basin Plan – back to the drawing board because the bickering state governments couldn’t agree.
28. 2020 Summit – Meaningless talkfest, like any talkfest, regardless of who is in power.
29. Tax Summit – did you mean the Henry tax review? Some policies adopted, like the change in FBT rules for novated leases, have resulted in a windfall and have ensured that the Carbon Tax will not be applied to fuel.
30. Population Policy – Sets no targets, nor should it.
31. Fuel Watch – Abandoned. There is no point when private industry colludes anyway.
32. Grocery Choice – Abandoned. People are intelligent enough to make up their own minds.
33. $900 Stimulus cheques – Sent to dead people and overseas residents. The majority spent on flat screen TV's and fast food. *[please cite]*
34. Foreign Policy – In turmoil with Kevin (747) Rudd running riot flying around the world spending more than the US Secretary of State, proving that the US Secretary of State was lazy by comparison.
35. National Schools Solar Program – Closing two years early but better than no program at all.
36. Solar Hot Water Rebate – Abandoned just 4 months early after running for over 4 years. There was no rebate prior to that.
37. Oceanic Viking – Caved in, after all, we are talking about human beings.
38. GP Super Clinics – 64 promised, only 11 operational so far.
39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics – 12 promised in the long term, 8 trialled to start with.
40. Trade Training Centres – 2650 promised, 70 operational so far.
41. Bid for UN Security Council seat – A Rudd aspiration.
42. My School Website – Revamped but problems continue like any new IT system.
43. National Curriculum – States in uproar because they don’t want to be found out.
44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House – 99% of small businesses reject it because they see superannuation as a cost rather than as a responsibility. Poor workers.
45. Indigenous Housing Program – way behind schedule but happening nevertheless.
46. Rudd Bank – Why are we still focusing on Rudd?
47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for Defence uniforms – Ditched, as it should.
48. Innovation Ambassadors Program – I googled that and got directed to the NASA website lol!
49. Six Submarines – none operational because they are not planned to be until 2025!!!!!! You’re desperate now, aren’t you?
50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion and rising – to pay for all of this and much more, but still a drop in the ocean on a world scale.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Nice to see Carr become FM clearly the best candidate available I see he rated a shambolic Abbott government  poorly as all do.




Did he really, I thought he would have given them a big wrap.


----------



## dutchie

Nailed it Eager, now that you've explained it that way Labor is the bees knees.

Sure put Mr Burns in his place.

Psst...... are you really Julia Gillard in disguise?


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> Nailed it *Dutchie*, now that you've explained it that way Liberal is the bees knees.
> 
> Sure put Mr Burns in his place.
> 
> Psst...... are you really *Tony Abbott* in disguise?




Lets change that a little, in other words check the mirror eh.....


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

What has me beat is that with such a record of incompetence the ALP don't have the decency to call an election, go the people and have a new government run this great country as it should be run.

gg


----------



## joea

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What has me beat is that with such a record of incompetence the ALP don't have the decency to call an election, go the people and have a new government run this great country as it should be run.
> 
> gg




Well GG, the trigger to do that is the Governor General, and we all know it will not happen until there is a little bit of sanity in Government from the independents.
The greens and independents will support Labor to run its term.

I watched Oakeshott and Windsor the other day. In their electorate the poll is saying they are losing support, and they say their electorate's are that much better off it's not funny. (WITH THE DEALS THEY WON). I am wondering why their voters cannot see all the gains. It appears the voters do not want them to support Gillard.

The next COAG meeting is on the 13th April. This will be interesting as we may have most mining states under LNP. So QLD. election and COAG are the next two items on the political agenda. Its all about (ministerial pays and supers now)

Personally, I think if Question time in Parliament was not screened, the country would be  better off.
joea


----------



## dutchie

Quote Originally Posted by dutchie View Post
    Nailed it Dutchie, now that you've explained it that way Liberal is the bees knees.

    Sure put Mr Burns in his place.

    Psst...... are you really Tony Abbott in disguise?
    Lets change that a little, in other words check the mirror eh..... 


Ouch

Be nice.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Nice to see Carr become FM clearly the best candidate available I see he rated a shambolic Abbott government  poorly as all do.




You mean the guy that ran NSW into the ground and lived in his own fantasy land as it happened. Who gives a rats what he rates anyone else when he was proven to be the worst


----------



## Calliope

moXJO said:


> You mean the guy that ran NSW into the ground and lived in his own fantasy land as it happened. Who gives a rats what he rates anyone else when he was proven to be the worst




He will, however, raise the level of the average IQ of Labor Senators. He will balance out the moronic Conroy.


----------



## pilots

Calliope said:


> He will, however,Senators raise the level of the average IQ of Labor . He will balance out the moronic Conroy.




#### raise the level of the average IQ of Labor####, hell man, that would not be hard to do.


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What has me beat is that with such a record of incompetence the ALP don't have the decency to call an election, go the people and have a new government run this great country as it should be run.
> gg




Agreed 100% Gillard is all about herself, she is a control freak placing people that support her into important portfolios that should be held by competent people. she will make hay while the sun shines and leave a desolate Australia burdened by debt in her wake as she scurries off into the distance with her massive pension.

But HEY ! that's democracy


----------



## Calliope

Perhaps the Malaysia solution is closer than we think.



> *Another Malaysian in Australian political scene
> New Australian FM Carr’s wife hails from Pera*k
> 
> CANBERRA - With the end to the party leadership dispute between Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard and former Prime Minister (and former Foreign Minister) Kevin Rudd, all eyes are on the nation's new Foreign Affairs Minister Bob Carr.
> 
> *Malaysians can be especially interested in Carr because his Malaysian-born wife is a Taiping, Perak native. Bob Carr, 64, and his wife Helena, also 64, have been married for 29 years, having met on a vacation in Tahiti in 1972.*
> 
> Helena came to Sydney to study at Out Lady of Mercy College, later majoring in economics at the University of Sydney. She is a businesswoman who was one of the owners of commercial printers Meritt Madden Printing and Advanced Graphics, which she sold to a New Zealand company in 2004.
> 
> *The Malaysian connection between Australia and Malaysia continues with Finance Minister Senator Penny Wong, who is from Sabah.*


----------



## dutchie

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What has me beat is that with such a record of incompetence the ALP don't have the decency to call an election, go the people and have a new government run this great country as it should be run.
> 
> gg




They will be doubly massacred for making us have to wait sooooooo long to kick them out.


----------



## Julia

Garpal Gumnut said:


> What has me beat is that with such a record of incompetence the ALP don't have the decency to call an election, go the people and have a new government run this great country as it should be run.
> 
> gg



Heavens, gg, calling an election is the last thing they'd do.  They'd lose, obviously.
Morally, yes, they should call an election but we all know putting 'moral' and 'politician' in the same sentence is simply silly.


----------



## noco

Is it possible Mark Arbib is the tangled web with Craig Thomson


  Kangaroo Court of Australia
SENATOR MARK ARBIB RESIGNS AMID SPECULATION OF HIS SHADY FINANCIAL DEALINGS AND INVOLVEMENT IN THE CRAIG THOMSON COVER-UP.
Senator Mark Arbib who resigned yesterday has some serious questions he needs to answer in relation to his own shady financial dealings and more importantly his involvement in the Craig Thomson HSU fraud case.

The reasons he gave for his resignation do not cut it when you know what is happening in the background. He said that he resigned so the Labor party could help heal and for family reasons.  This is garbage as he would be well aware his involvement and close association with Craig Thomson and HSU President Michael Williamson was about to come under close scrutiny.

Only last week John Gilleland, the printer accused of bribing Mr Thomson and Mr Williamson, had his house raided by police. How did the media know? The police probably let it be known to see whose cage it would rattle and it looks like Mr Arbib was the first taker. Obviously Mark Arbib would highly likely be a person of interest to the police and would have to be a good chance of at least being questioned by them as the rest of this post shows.



The Craig Thomson affair will move into overdrive in the next few weeks and months as the Victorian and NSW Police investigations start to dig deeper and Fair Work Australia reluctantly takes action.

Mark Arbib’s own financial dealings were raised last year in an article by Kate McClymont at the SMH where she starts off “The sale of land for $1, mysterious donors, property developers bankrolling a company of an MP’s son, union officials getting mining deals – welcome to the NSW Right where connections are crucial.”

It is a must read and raises questions about whether or not Mark Arbib received beneficial pricing when he bought a unit in Maroubra in the same block as another Labor boy Eric Roozendaal.

It then says “Neither has been able to explain what coincidence led to them purchasing boutique beachside apartments not only in the same suburb but also in the very same block.”

And goes on to say “Meanwhile, questions have been raised in Labor circles as to whether Mr Arbib, the federal Sports Minister, was receiving an undisclosed benefit by not paying rent when staying in Canberra during parliamentary sitting days.”

“During 2007 to 2009, Mr Arbib stayed in Alexandra Williamson’s two-bedroom apartment in Forrest. Ms Williamson, a staffer in the office of the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, is the daughter of Mr Arbib’s and Mr Roozendaal’s close friend, embattled Health Services Union boss Michael Williamson, who is the subject of a police investigation.” Like I said the article is a must read.



A quick recap on the Craig Thomson scandal for those who have not been following it closely, which is best set out on Wikipedia:

“In December 2008, the Health Services Union (HSU) requested its lawyers to retain forensic accountants to investigate allegations of impropriety around Thomson’s use of a union-issued corporate MasterCard. Specifically, there were accusations that Thomson had used the credit card to: make payments to three companies which provide or facilitate prostitution and escort services in Sydney; make payments for goods and services consumed by Thomson personally; and to withdraw $101,533 in cash. The HSU further suggested that Thomson had used the credit card to finance his election campaign in a manner which would breach Australian electoral law. For his part, at that time Thomson denied all allegations of wrongdoing, stated that an independent audit had not identified any inappropriate use of the card, noted that other people would have been able to incur charges on the account and claimed the accusations had been fabricated by rivals within the HSU.”

“The union’s accusations were reported by The Sydney Morning Herald in April 2009.In response, Thomson initiated defamation proceedings against both the Health Services Union and against the publisher of the Herald, Fairfax Media. In pretrial proceedings in the New South Wales Supreme Court, Fairfax Media claimed that subpoenaed records showed that details of Thomson’s driver’s license had been noted on the credit card receipt, that phone records showed that Thomson’s phone had been used to call two phone numbers associated with a Sydney escort agency and that mobile phone records showed that Thomson had travelled from his constituency to Sydney on one of the nights on which one of the impugned charges to the credit card had been made.”



“Thomson continued to deny accusations of impropriety and Fairfax Media’s claims were never tested or proven at trial: shortly before the defamation trial was due to begin in April 2011, a notice of discontinuance was filed on Thomson’s behalf with the New South Wales Supreme Court. Thomson claimed that he had reached an out-of-court settlement with Fairfax Media and continued to deny any allegation of impropriety made against him; Fairfax Media claimed that Thomson had “dropped” the case and maintained all allegations made against him. It was subsequently revealed that the Australian Labor Party had contributed towards Thomson’s legal costs in the actions.” (It was actually the NSW ALP that paid Mr Thomson’s legal bill and Mark Arbib has admitted that he is the one who negotiated the deal.)

“In a radio interview in August 2011, (with Mike Smith) Thomson stated that he had approved payments made by the Health Services Union to a Sydney escort agency but denied having used the card to pay for prostitution. Rather, he said, another man (who he declined to identify) had used his credit card to pay for escort services and may have forged Thomson’s signature in the process and produced a copy of his photo drivers licence as identification; he claimed that unidentified man had subsequently repaid $15,000 to the Health Services Union.”

So lets look at some of the facts:

1. Mark Arbib has been living in Canberra with, Alexandra Williamson, the daughter of the HSU President Michael Williamson who is being investigated by the police. Ms Williamson is a staffer in the office of the Prime Minister Julia Gillard. I have to wonder why she has not resigned or why Gillard has not gotten rid of her, maybe Mr Arbib has had something to do with that.

2. Mark Arbib helped negotiate the NSW ALP paying for Craig Thomson’s legal bill.

3. Mark Arbib has some serious questions to answer in relation to the unit he bought in Maroubra. It is very strange indeed. Like what price did he pay and was he given a discount?

4. If Craig did steal from the HSU (which everyone in the country knows he did) could the legal fees paid by the NSW ALP be seen as an attempt to conceal a crime. definitely worth a close look at by the police.

5. We all know that FWA has been deliberately delaying their investigation into Craig Thomson. Given that it is ex-union officials at FWA doing the investigation has Mark Arbib used his union contacts to help delay the investigation on behalf of his mates Craig Thomson and Michael Williamson. Another good question the police should be asking.

In other news at FWA, Bill Shorten has just appointed another union crony as its president, Iain Ross.

Iain Ross is an ex ACTU official and this it what I quoted in a previous post:

“Among those appointed to the bench last week were high-profile Melbourne barrister and human rights advocate Lex Lasry who will sit on the Victorian Supreme Court and former ACTU assistant secretary and Labor Party member Iain Ross to the County Court.”

“However, Clark was less than impressed with the appointment of Ross.”

“Mr Ross has very little practical experience. He appears to have practised barely 20 months as a solicitor; prior to that his career was as an assistant secretary of the ACTU and then as a member and vice-president of the Industrial Relations Commission. The Victorian County Court has negligible industrial relations practice and Mr Ross appears to have negligible experience of general court practice in Victoria,” Clark said.” (unfortunately the page at Lawyers Weekly has gone so I can not put a link to it here) (But for the dodgy judicial appointments post I did click here)

Bill Shorten is starting to get some form on the board for dodgy appointments as only two weeks ago I did a post on him titled “Bill Shorten appoints two stooges to review the Fair Work Act.” 



It must be remembered when Julia Gillard was Deputy PM she was also the minister for Workplace Relations and she herself was stacking the bench at FWA with Labor party cronies. If you are new to this site a previous post is essential reading  titled “Julia Gillard who admitted helping rip off the AWU of over $1million stands by and supports Craig Thomson who is accused of ripping off the Health Services Union. The Australian Labor Party, beautiful one day, perfect the next.” 



Unions make up about 17% of the workforce but Labor have appointed about 90% of the people to FWA with union backgrounds. Makes you wonder does it not, they are that corrupt they just do not care.

Given that the NSW Police originally refused to investigate Craig Thomson (a bit like FWA) I think we should help them out with Mr Arbib. In the comment section try to come up some questions that the police should ask Mr Arbib like I have above.


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> *It is a must read *and raises questions about whether or not Mark Arbib received beneficial pricing when he bought a unit in Maroubra in the same block as another Labor boy Eric Roozendaal.
> 
> It then says “Neither has been able to explain what coincidence led to them purchasing boutique beachside apartments not only in the same suburb but also in the very same block.”
> 
> And goes on to say “Meanwhile, questions have been raised in Labor circles as to whether Mr Arbib, the federal Sports Minister, was receiving an undisclosed benefit by not paying rent when staying in Canberra during parliamentary sitting days.”
> 
> “During 2007 to 2009, Mr Arbib stayed in Alexandra Williamson’s two-bedroom apartment in Forrest. Ms Williamson, a staffer in the office of the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, is the daughter of Mr Arbib’s and Mr Roozendaal’s close friend, embattled Health Services Union boss Michael Williamson, who is the subject of a police investigation.” *Like I said the article is a must read.*




What is the link?


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> What is the link?





"rightwingliberalpropagandaunit.com.au"


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Is it possible Mark Arbib is the tangled web with Craig Thomson



As Calliope has asked, where does this come from?


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> What is the link?




All I can tell you at this stage it came from PAMMY

I am not sure who Pammy is. She may be a journo. I am trying to find out more detail.





 --


----------



## Julia

Pammy?  In what context did you come across it, though?  Sounds like a blogger or just a poster like any of us.


----------



## moXJO

I know a mafia link turned supergrass in nsw and was about to rollover on a bunch of labor mps. Wonder if anything has come of that yet


----------



## DB008

noco said:


> 3. Mark Arbib has some serious questions to answer in relation to the unit he bought in Maroubra. It is very strange indeed. *Like what price did he pay* and was he given a discount?




Anybody with RP Data can find this out in about 2 minutes. Does anybody on ASF have access to RP Data or a friend in the real estate industry? 

All that is needed is the property address.


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> Is it possible Mark Arbib is the tangled web with Craig Thomson
> .




Wouldn't surprise me one bit, couple of creeps both of them.



> We all know that FWA has been deliberately delaying their investigation into Craig Thomson




This is unbelievable , 3 years ??? and no one has done anything ? The Federal Police should be knocking their door down.


----------



## MrBurns

DB008 said:


> Anybody with RP Data .




I'm not so ssure about RP Data they are the property industry cheer leader, their data could be compromised for all we know.


----------



## orr

No comment here yet on Wayne Swans "rise of vested interest' essay.( go on... read it, they're only words)  
What's your guess as to how many on the opposition benches actually agree with him.
More than some here would like to admit.


----------



## MrBurns

Clive Palmer got it right, Swan is an imbecile, you cant discriminate against race or sex but you can when someone is successful.

Swan talking about a fairer society is just his way of saying, if you're smart enough to make money in Australia we'll take it off you, that's fair isn't it ?

If he wants to make Australia a better place resign and let some competent people take over.


----------



## orr

MrBurns said:


> Clive Palmer got it right, Swan is an imbecile, you cant discriminate against race or sex but you can when someone is successful.
> 
> Swan talking about a fairer society is just his way of saying, if you're smart enough to make money in Australia we'll take it off you, that's fair isn't it ?
> 
> If he wants to make Australia a better place resign and let some competent people take over.




And you can point to, or can deconstruct any part of the essay to confirm your and clive's view of it's 'imbecility'


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> Clive Palmer got it right, Swan is an imbecile, you cant discriminate against race or sex but you can when someone is successful.




Clive Palmer is a Living Treasure. Swan had never done anything productive in his whole life. This ugly sucker is indulging in the politics of envy.

Those lefties who want to put down Palmer's nomination as a LT  might consider some of the ratbags who already are members, along with the usual suspects.

Pat O'Shane
Bob Brown
Julian Burnside
Peter Garrett
Germaine Greer.


----------



## Knobby22

Calliope said:


> Clive Palmer is a Living Treasure. Swan had never done anything productive in his whole life. This ugly sucker is indulging in the politics of envy.
> 
> Those lefties who want to put down Palmer's nomination as a LT  might consider some of the ratbags who already are members, along with the usual suspects.
> 
> Pat O'Shane
> Bob Brown
> Julian Burnside
> Peter Garrett
> Germaine Greer.





I would classify Palmer as a ratbag also, just a different colour.
That "National Treasure" award is completely devalued.
We have honors for people who really do good and this is just a side circus.

Kylie got one along with Palmer but knew it for what it was and had the sense not to turn up.


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> I would classify Palmer as a ratbag also, just a different colour.
> That "National Treasure" award is completely devalued.
> We have honors for people who really do good and this is just a side circus.
> 
> Kylie got one along with Palmer but knew it for what it was and had the sense not to turn up.




I agree Knobby. It is just a circus, and the ratbags in it *do *devalue  the high regard for the notable achievers.


----------



## MrBurns

Don't know what the National Treasure thing is all about and it's a bit sus that Palmer got an award, I bet he laughed but he's spot on about Swan, who does he think he is denegrating people because they're successful, it's socialism at it's best, Swan is a useless dufus.


----------



## Calliope

A modest poetic tribute to our former PM and Foreign Minister, doubled as an ode to the circumstances leading to the nomination of his successor (with apologies to all poets, living and dead). (By Henry Ergas)

Who killed KR?
Not Bob Carr.
When Kevin tumbled,
Arbib crumbled,
Julia fumbled,
Wayne rumbled,
Smith grumbled,
Crean bumbled,
Joel jumbled,
And Gillard, humbled,
gave Carr
The cigar.
How bizarre.

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/henryergas/index.php/theaustralian/comments/who_killed_kr/


----------



## IFocus

Swan is just calling out the big money and rightly so it was a good performance today at the press club by Swan not that I am his fan.

Of course in WA Charley Court (WA premier liberal doyen for those that don't know) greatest arch enemy none other than Lang Hancock for the same reasons Swan talks about.


----------



## joea

Swan was at the press club today.
They must have put 3 valium in his coffee, as he was not sweating and attempting to 'blow" a blood vessel!!
Yep! Tony is the problem, as the rich miners  are his mates!.
joea


----------



## sptrawler

Well if it so easy to become rich like Forrest, I can't wait to see Wayne put his neck on the line to make the big time.
No much easier to sit back in Canberra and get a pension.
For every Forrest there is a heap more have gone into business and lost everything.
That's why I always worked for wages, I never had the guts. 
But I don't sit back and criticise those that have made it.
Actualy Swans  behaviour is becoming a bit weird, using the public forum to denigrate Rudd then the following week going into a rant over mining magnates.
Maybe he is losing it. LOL
You can only punch above your weight for so long.


----------



## IFocus

IFocus said:


> Swan is just calling out the big money and rightly so it was a good performance today at the press club by Swan not that I am his fan.
> 
> Of course in WA Charley Court (WA premier liberal doyen for those that don't know) greatest arch enemy none other than Lang Hancock for the same reasons Swan talks about.





The issue is of course is that they not advocate for themselves which is fair enough but the message they use is its in Australians interest which is rubbish as its so they can further their own.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> .
> Maybe he is losing it. LOL




I think he has, what a hide abusing Australians who have made it, did they do it illegally ? No.
The Swan rant sounds very much like communist propaganda and it's right in our living rooms, what an outrage.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> The issue is of course is that they not advocate for themselves which is fair enough but the message they use is its in Australians interest which is rubbish as its so they can further their own.




That's very true IFocus, however there aren't many inside or outside politics that aren't self serving.
There are very few people in business that are there for other peoples benefit.
The same applies to government and unions also.


----------



## joea

comment from the Australian on Swan's speech at the press club.

philj of perth Posted at 4:30 PM Today

    Gee Wayne you are a bit slow. You think the average working joe is as thick as you. Do you think they care how much money Clive Palmer or Twiggy Forrest, who employ hundreds of thousands of people like themselves makes? What they remember mate, are the lies told by Julia Gillard on carbon tax. They see the deals you people have made with the insidious green party who would have us all back living in caves. They see the shonky deals made with a few misfit independents in order to hold on to power. The billions of dollars wasted on pipe dreams and the billions more being borrowed from China and the Arabs which will take generations to pay back. They see the infighting and backstabbing which is the Labor party and most of all they see the Australian Dream, which kicking you and your lot out on your collective backsides at the earliest opportunity.


joea


----------



## bellenuit

joea said:


> They see the deals you people have made with the insidious green party who would have us all back living in caves. They see the shonky deals made with a few misfit independents in order to hold on to power. The billions of dollars wasted on pipe dreams and the billions more being borrowed from China and the Arabs which will take generations to pay back. They see the infighting and backstabbing which is the Labor party and most of all they see the Australian Dream, which kicking you and your lot out on your collective backsides at the earliest opportunity.




And Wayne has a strategy to combat that too. It's called press censorship and if he, Labor and The Greens have their way, "they", the people, won't see any of these things either. Just the good news as dictated by the left.


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> comment from the Australian on Swan's speech at the press club.
> 
> philj of perth Posted at 4:30 PM Today
> 
> Gee Wayne you are a bit slow. You think the average working joe is as thick as you. Do you think they care how much money Clive Palmer or Twiggy Forrest, who employ hundreds of thousands of people like themselves makes? What they remember mate, are the lies told by Julia Gillard on carbon tax. They see the deals you people have made with the insidious green party who would have us all back living in caves. They see the shonky deals made with a few misfit independents in order to hold on to power. The billions of dollars wasted on pipe dreams and the billions more being borrowed from China and the Arabs which will take generations to pay back. They see the infighting and backstabbing which is the Labor party and most of all they see the Australian Dream, which kicking you and your lot out on your collective backsides at the earliest opportunity.
> 
> 
> joea




Gee wizz fancy the Oz blurring the argument of self interest.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> What is the link?




Here's a link  - and contains other links in the article:

Senator Mark Arbib resigns amid speculation of his shady financial dealings and involvement in the Craig Thomson cover-up.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Gee wizz fancy the Oz blurring the argument of self interest.




That comment appears to have come from a reader... you know  - the people otherwise known as "VOTERS"...

Honestly, all the smart comments coming from you leftie lot who are definitely in the minority in this country beggar belief.  Methinks you will have egg so thick on your faces when the voters in this country get an opportunity to show their utter contempt for this unwanted minority.

Yeah, those reader comments pretty much sum up the anger that is out there.


----------



## MrBurns

Craig Thompson, Mark Arbib, liars pimps sleezbags, the anger out there is fast turning to outright fury.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Here's a link  - and contains other links in the article:
> 
> Senator Mark Arbib resigns amid speculation of his shady financial dealings and involvement in the Craig Thomson cover-up.




Thanks Sails. The info on Mark Arbib was emailed to me by a friend, who received from one of his friends.

I trust Julia and Caliope have noted the link..T'was well worth a read.


----------



## noco

Wayne Swan received the gong for world's greatest treasurer, so that makes him the best out of the worst bunch around the world.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Well if it so easy to become rich like Forrest, I can't wait to see Wayne put his neck on the line to make the big time.
> No much easier to sit back in Canberra and get a pension.
> For every Forrest there is a heap more have gone into business and lost everything.
> That's why I always worked for wages, I never had the guts.
> But I don't sit back and criticise those that have made it.
> Actualy Swans  behaviour is becoming a bit weird, using the public forum to denigrate Rudd then the following week going into a rant over mining magnates.
> Maybe he is losing it. LOL
> You can only punch above your weight for so long.






joea said:


> comment from the Australian on Swan's speech at the press club.
> 
> philj of perth Posted at 4:30 PM Today
> 
> Gee Wayne you are a bit slow. You think the average working joe is as thick as you. Do you think they care how much money Clive Palmer or Twiggy Forrest, who employ hundreds of thousands of people like themselves makes? What they remember mate, are the lies told by Julia Gillard on carbon tax. They see the deals you people have made with the insidious green party who would have us all back living in caves. They see the shonky deals made with a few misfit independents in order to hold on to power. The billions of dollars wasted on pipe dreams and the billions more being borrowed from China and the Arabs which will take generations to pay back. They see the infighting and backstabbing which is the Labor party and most of all they see the Australian Dream, which kicking you and your lot out on your collective backsides at the earliest opportunity.
> 
> 
> joea



 +1 on both above posts.



bellenuit said:


> And Wayne has a strategy to combat that too. It's called press censorship and if he, Labor and The Greens have their way, "they", the people, won't see any of these things either. Just the good news as dictated by the left.



Yes, this is immensely concerning.  And to those on the Left, just imagine how you'd feel if all comment from the Greens' publicity machine, the Fairfax press and all the arms of the ABC and SBS were to be censored out of existence.  That is pretty much what a stacked government panel of 'independent experts' charged with censoring the media would do to any remotely right leaning journalism.
George Orwell would be seeing all his prophecies fulfilled.




noco said:


> I trust Julia and Caliope have noted the link..T'was well worth a read.



So it's from "The Kangaroo Court".  Has anyone on this forum ever heard of them?
This is from their website:


> Website Overview
> ►
> 
> The main focus of this website (blog) is on the corrupt conduct of Australian Judges and Magistrates and the Federal Politicians and Police who cover it up by failing to take action.
> 
> Australia is quite unique in Western Society in that there is no independent body to investigate complaints about judges and magistrates nor is there an independent body for the appointment of judges and magistrates. Subsequently the corruption is rife as they are accountable to nobody and the politicians appoint their own boys and girls to the judicial positions.
> 
> I will also do posts on current affairs as long as there is some legal or corruption element to it.
> Visit the Kangaroo Court of Australia Shop (Click Here)




It all sounds like a worthy aim.  But the actual message originally posted seems like all allegations (they might all be true) and I'm always a bit distrustful of same and am a bit uncomfortable with this sort of stuff being put up as absolute fact.

I have no wish to defend any of the people named in the post, but would prefer reporting to be of facts rather than just allegations.

Any of us here could write up a few paragraphs alleging all sorts of things about all sorts of people and put it out on the internet.  That doesn't make it fact.

Not getting at you, noco, it's interesting reading, just trying to stick with some basic principles.


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> Thanks Sails. The info on Mark Arbib was emailed to me by a friend, who received from one of his friends.
> 
> I trust Julia and Caliope have noted the link..T'was well worth a read.




T'was...if you take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## dutchie

Comment of the year goes to Amanda Vanstone on Q&A;:  “Bob Carr walks into the Cabinet room and the combined IQ automatically doubles.”


----------



## noco

Upon searching Google, it defines the Kangaroo Court of Australia as media outlet.

The link below gives us a bit more to digest.

BTW. Don't forget to read the reader's comments.


http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/


----------



## noco

dutchie said:


> Comment of the year goes to Amanda Vanstone on Q&A;:  “Bob Carr walks into the Cabinet room and the combined IQ automatically doubles.”




Yes, she was quite impressive with her quick wit.

She also put Swanie back in his box as well.


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> Yes, she was quite impressive with her quick wit. She also put Swanie back in his box as well.



Yes I like Amanda. However to set the record straight, I heard it on Q&A not as a statement, but more of a hypothetical: '..how would you feel in the Labor Caucus if you heard it said that Bob Carr doubles the IQ..?'


----------



## sptrawler

This in the SMH is another indication of Swans lack of self appraisal. 
He says, in the first paragraph, the government stuffed up by not consulting the mining industry with the first mining tax.
But they didn't consult the junior miners with the second mining tax, only the big miners.
They didn't consult the electorate with the carbon tax.
In the third paragraph the very thing he is accusing the mining magnates of is exactly what the greens are doing with labor support.IMO.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/swan-admits-mining-tax-blunder-20120305-1uef6.html

Their arrogance and contempt for the constituents they are supposedly representing is deplorable
If, as Swan says, they have the interest of Australia and Australian workers at heart. They should have no trouble winning an election, so why not call one?:
The problem is they know they are talking BS and no one is swallowing it. The longer they put off an election the more people distrust their self belief and question the honesty of their policies.


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> Comment of the year goes to Amanda Vanstone on Q&A;:  “Bob Carr walks into the Cabinet room and the combined IQ automatically doubles.”



Yep, good to see a bit of the colourful Amanda.   
Off topic, but during the holiday period she did a stint of pure fun on ABC Local Radio as an Agony Aunt.  Various people wrote in with their problems and Amanda came up with her, um, fairly unique solutions.


----------



## MrBurns

Labor at work -


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> Labor at work -






> Jason Peter Wood (born 24 May 1968), Australian politician, was elected to the Australian House of Representatives for the Division of La Trobe, Victoria for the Liberal Party of Australia at the 2004 federal election. He held the seat until his defeat at the 2010 federal election




Lib so it seems but gone now - should have been a Labor man,


----------



## moXJO

Watching with interest labors effort with reducing red tape on business. Hopefully it trickles down to small business. About time, but also well timed. If they actually start getting down to productivity and IR issues it will save them at the next election. They don't need grandstanding flops from here on out just good stable governance.
 Hey Labor *SMALL BUSINESS*



> The objective of the new co-operation will be to combat "excessive regulation" which was adding to business costs and limiting productivity.
> 
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/jul...rs/story-e6frfm1i-1226290629308#ixzz1oJWXoTJq


----------



## joea

Anybody notice the diversion of Swan and his fight against the rich miners.
Gillard has gone into hiding. She is having a breather!!!
joea


----------



## joea

Labor on the march.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...st-with-a-legend/story-fn59niix-1226291261992

We have a comment on Bob Carr and how is starting to make speeches like a potential PM.
It is interesting to note that Labor continues to focus on beating Abbott at the next election, and not running the country.
The reason why??? Well they are running the country into more debt.
It appears their only hope is the mining tax and the carbon tax. If that is a hope???
joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> Anybody notice the diversion of Swan and his fight against the rich miners.
> Gillard has gone into hiding. She is having a breather!!!
> joea




When you think about it whay right has Swan got to have a go at any free Australian, he couldnt balance the books at a school fete and is net drain on society yet had the hide to ridicule people who employ thousands.
A goose pure and simple...........especially simple.


----------



## sptrawler

It wouldn't surprise me if there was another leadership challenge if Swan threw his hat in the ring, for a go.


----------



## joea

joea said:


> Anybody notice the diversion of Swan and his fight against the rich miners.
> Gillard has gone into hiding. She is having a breather!!!
> joea




Whoops I forgot. She will probably pop up in a boat at Wagga Wagga today.
joea


----------



## Logique

Cheryl Kernot has been popping up in the media lately, dutifully selling the Labor line.  No doubt an interested observer of the Carr parachute.

When will we see Wane Swan sound off at all the rich Green donors, of which there is a very long list, and their 'undue influence'? Or at the Unions, who represent only ~13% of the workforce, yet bankroll the ALP, and remember the massive Workchoices advertising campaign (even if Workchoices did go too far). 

It seems in Wayne Swan World there are good and bad vested interests.


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> Anybody notice the diversion of Swan and his fight against the rich miners.
> Gillard has gone into hiding. She is having a breather!!!
> joea



I think you have the main point of his current peculiar behaviour when you suggest it's a diversion.  They are desperate to shift the focus away from their infighting.

So we have Swannie getting stuck into Gina et al, and now this morning they have redrafted Mr Menadue who was previously with the Dept of Immigration coming out and, apropos of nothing, going off about the Liberal policy on border control.

Tomorrow it will probably be someone else on some other subject.
How transparent they are!


----------



## joea

When its "Beer o'clock" time at my place I generally do my best thinking!!

So.. It appears the Labor MP's are continually telling the Australian voter they can beat Abbott at the next election.
By their own accounts that is miles away!
So WHY?
Well I am thinking...
If they can convince the swinger voter in Qld that they will be in another term, then those voter may help get Bligh or Labor over the line in Qld.
I am sure Gillard does not want another LNP state opposing her at the next COAG
Currently the LNP states have paperwork going to Gillard as we speak on Royalties and GST distribution. This is to "soften her up " a little before the COAG on the 13Tth April.

 Bill Shorten was involved yesterday with the accounting profession,  to place additional reform on the financial sector.
Superannuation and Self Managed Funds are on the agenda.
Changes will be announced in the next month or so.
These change will apply for new accounts from July 1st.

So I wonder how many more changes besides the Mining Tax, Carbon Tax and above will be implemented from the 1st July..

By my understanding if Federal Labor make it to 1st. July, they will be implementing many changes and taxes, funding them to the next election and beyond.

I think the Qld state election is their "Achilles Heel".

From there the LNP states will challenge her bankroll at COAG, and that challenge will be further strengthen if LNP win Qld.

THE STATES CAN RUN HER OUT OF MONEY!!!!
joea


----------



## Logique

_ Hey, Wayne, what about lefty billionaires and Big Unions?  http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/
Miranda Devine - 6 Mar 2012
"..Left-leaning Wotif founder Graeme Wood, Robert Purves, Eve Kantor and Evan Thornley are among those named by Paul Barry in his Power Index as the top 20 “most powerful rich crusaders”.  Purves funded Tim Flannery’s book The Weather Makers, the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists, the Australian Youth Climate Coalition and the Total Environment Centre, according to Barry. 

Eve Kantor has spent $14 million to set up the Climate Institute and $10 million for the Australian Conservation Foundation. Wood has reportedly bankrolled environmental activists to develop an “extraordinary secret plan to ruin Australia’s coal export boom” by disrupting and delaying key projects and infrastructure. He gave the Greens $1.6 million at the last election and just spent $15 million setting up left-leaning web-zine The Global Mail. 

Moving right along. No threat to Democracy here.."_


----------



## Eager

Logique said:


> ....and Big Unions?



By far the largest and most powerful 'union' in the country is the ACCI, which is a largely right-wing employer group.

They represent more than 350,000 'members.'


----------



## Calliope

Anyone who watched the 7.30 Report with Stephen Smith's interview on the ADFA/Skype  affair and Smith's refusal to apologise or declare confidence in the ADFA  Commandant, would have to teach the conclusion that the "nice" Mr Smith is as slippery, slimy and evasive as Gillard and Swan. 



> THE head of the Australian Defence Force Academy has been cleared over the so-called Skype sex scandal, as a report on past sexual abuse in the military today flagged a possible royal commission and national apology to up to 775 victims spanning 60 years.
> 
> Commandant Bruce Kafer, who was stood down almost a year ago, will return to work this week after the Kirkham inquiry into the Skype incident found he made no error of judgment in his treatment of a female cadet at the centre of the scandal.
> 
> However, Defence Minister Stephen Smith said he stood by his original criticism of Commodore Kafer and his decision to conclude unrelated disciplinary proceedings against the woman, who was filmed having sex with a male colleague while four other cadets watched in another room.
> 
> The results of the inquiry appear to vindicate the views of senior officers who believed Commodore Kafer was made a scapegoat for the scandal.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-may-get-apology/story-e6frg8yo-1226292092451


----------



## Glen48

Comment from Ross Greenwood of Money News


 "Never in the history of the world has there been a situation so bad that a government couldn't make it worse."



Quoted by: Ross Greenwood of Money News..

Right now the Federal Government is at pains to tell everyone - including us

mug-punters and the International Monetary Fund, that it will not exceed

its own, self-imposed, borrowing limits.

How much?    $200 billion.   And here's a worry.

If you work in a bank's money market operation; or if you are a politician;

the millions turn into billions and it rolls off the tip of the tongue a bit

too easily. but every dollar that is borrowed, some time, has to be repaid.

By you, by me and by the rest of the country.

Just after 5 o'clock tonight I did a bit of math for Jason Morrison ( Sydney

radio presenter). But it's so staggering its worth repeating now.

First though; here's what Ex-P.M. Rudd has been saying about - what he calls

- these temporary borrowings

Remember Those Words :  Temporary Deficit.

The total country debt could end up around $200 billion.

So here's a very basic calculation  .. I used a home loan calculator to work

it out..... it's that simple.. $200 billion is $200,000 million.

The current 10 year Government bond rate is 4.67 per cent. I worked the loan

out over a period of 20 years. Now here's where it gets scary .... really

scary.

The repayments on $200 billion, come to more than one and a quarter billion

dollars - every month - for 20 years. It works out we - as taxpayers - will

be repaying $15.4 billion in interest and principal every year .. $733 for

every man woman and child - every year.

The total interest bill over the 20 years is - get this - $108 billion.

Remember, this is a country, that just 4 years ago, had NO debt. NO debt.

In fact it had enough money to create the Future Fund, to pay the future

liabilities of public servants' superannuation, and it had enough to stick

$20 billion into the Building Australia Fund .......

He continues... a note that was sent to me which explains that the six

leading members of the Government, from Gillard down, the top six have a

collective work experience of 181 years, but only 13 in the private sector.

If you take out of those 13 years the number that were spent as trade union

lawyers, that total 11, of the 181 years, only two years were spent in the

private sector.

So out of those 181 years:

- no years spent running their own business

- no years spent starting their own business

- no years spent as a director of a family business or a company

- no years as a director of a public company

- no years in a senior position in a public company

- no years in a senior position in a private company

- no years working in corporate finance

- no years in corporate or business restructuring

- no years working in or with a bank

- no years of experience in the capital markets

- no years in a stock-broking firm

- no years in negotiating debt facilities with banks

- no years running a small business

- no years at the World Bank or IMF or OECD

- no years in Treasury or Finance.

But these people have plunged Australia into unprecedented debt, and now

threaten to torpedo employee share schemes, which they plainly don't

understand.

Well, in a way you can't blame them.

It's clear the electorate did not do their homework, because the Gov't is

there by right.

Ah, but they are Labor and people vote for them because Labor is good for

the working family right??? Ha!


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> Anyone who watched the 7.30 Report with Stephen Smith's interview on the ADFA/Skype  affair and Smith's refusal to apologise or declare confidence in the ADFA  Commandant, would have to teach the conclusion that the "nice" Mr Smith is as slippery, slimy and evasive as Gillard and Swan.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-may-get-apology/story-e6frg8yo-1226292092451




Had some time for Smith but he has disappointed recently and have to agree with Calliope.

Pity.


----------



## Calliope

Glen48 said:


> Comment from Ross Greenwood of Money News
> Quoted by: Ross Greenwood of Money News.




Why don't you just provide a link?


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> Had some time for Smith but he has disappointed recently and have to agree with Calliope.
> Pity.



Agree exactly.  Very disappointing to see Stephen Smith turn out to be cut of the same cloth as his colleagues.


----------



## sails

Glen48 said:


> ...Ah, but they are Labor and people vote for them because Labor is good for
> 
> the working family right??? Ha!




This last sentence says it so well.


----------



## pilots

I wish all you Liberal supporters would give our PM a break, she said many times MOVING FORWARD, we are moving forward, in to deep poo .


----------



## dutchie

pilots said:


> I wish all you Liberal supporters would give our PM a break, she said many times MOVING FORWARD, we are moving forward, in to deep poo .




So maybe she should be saying -  "Moving forward and sinking"


----------



## Logique

Here's the alternate Liberal leader in action:
_A failure to defend liberty -Financial Review -by John Roskam, executive director of the Institute of Public Affairs - 9 March 2012  http://afr.com/p/opinion/failure_to_defend_liberty_wAJSn9pqMROKLz9sLhFrbM

"..Meanwhile Turnbull issued a meandering and mealy-mouthed statement that left open the possibility of the Coalition supporting some or all of Finkelstein’s recommendations. Turnbull said the report “deserves careful study and community discussion”. No it does not. 
The report is bad from beginning to end and should be completely and unambiguously rejected by the Coalition....Turnbull baulked at upholding a core liberal (and Liberal Party) value.." _


----------



## Logique

dutchie said:


> So maybe she should be saying -  "Moving forward and sinking"



Moving backwards together.


----------



## Calliope

It is obvious now why Stephen Smith wanted to leave the Defence portfolio and scuttle back to Foreign Affairs. 

He had shat in his own nest.:fan


----------



## Logique

Logique said:


> ....The report is bad from beginning to end and should be completely and unambiguously rejected by the Coalition....Turnbull baulked at upholding a core liberal (and Liberal Party) value.." [/I]



To be fair to Malcolm Turnbull, he was on Lateline last night and firmly rejected John Roskam's claims, stating unequivocal Coalition rejection of the Finkelstein media council proposals.


----------



## Julia

Patrick Cooke's latest caustic observations.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/counterpoint/patrick-cook/3857558

Then, also from "Counterpoint" yesterday, an interview with Mark Steyn.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/counterpoint/mark-steyn/3857566

Mr Steyn's theme is  "Well, it's a free country, isn't it?"  and goes to the point that it is becoming less and less free.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> To be fair to Malcolm Turnbull, he was on Lateline last night and firmly rejected John Roskam's claims, stating unequivocal Coalition rejection of the Finkelstein media council proposals.




So what does he believe?  Did he mean what he said on Lateline or did he mean what he said to the AFR?  Personally, I don't trust him with his support for the clear money grab of pricing carbon and the economic damage that is likely to do to this country.

No wonder lefties want him as coalition leader.  Surely, that would really weaken the coalition as they need to provide an alternative to the unwanted policies including media control.  

Turnbull doesn't impress me at all.  Abbott has his problems, however,  he has pulled the party together since Turnbull's leadership.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> So what does he believe?  Did he mean what he said on Lateline or did he mean what he said to the AFR?  Personally, I don't trust him with his support for the clear money grab of pricing carbon and the economic damage that is likely to do to this country.
> 
> No wonder lefties want him as coalition leader.  Surely, that would really weaken the coalition as they need to provide an alternative to the unwanted policies including media control.
> 
> Turnbull doesn't impress me at all.  Abbott has his problems, however,  he has pulled the party together since Turnbull's leadership.



 +1.  Malcolm Turnbull is all about Malcolm Turnbull, not the Liberal Party or the people of Australia imo.


----------



## dutchie

Julia said:


> +1.  Malcolm Turnbull is all about Malcolm Turnbull, not the Liberal Party or the people of Australia imo.




So Malcolm and Julia make a good pair.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> So what does he believe?  Did he mean what he said on Lateline or did he mean what he said to the AFR?  Personally, I don't trust him with his support for the clear money grab of pricing carbon and the economic damage that is likely to do to this country.
> 
> No wonder lefties want him as coalition leader.  Surely, that would really weaken the coalition as they need to provide an alternative to the unwanted policies including media control.
> 
> Turnbull doesn't impress me at all.  Abbott has his problems, however,  he has pulled the party together since Turnbull's leadership.




I agree with you 100% sails, the only position he could be seen as an asset to the libs is as treasurer. That is only due to his financial credibility and even then he could quite easily become a liability, with his conflicting views.

The thing with Abbott, he defiinately appears to be genuine, what you see is what you get. Like it or not.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you 100% sails, the only position he could be seen as an asset to the libs is as treasurer. That is only due to his financial credibility and even then he could quite easily become a liability, with his conflicting views.
> 
> The thing with Abbott, he defiinately appears to be genuine, what you see is what you get. Like it or not.




Agree - I think Turnbull could do well as treasurer.  But would he use that position of power to keep promoting his seeming personal agenda of pricing carbon and nipping at the heels of any lib leader? If so, it would be quite counter productive, imo.


----------



## Logique

Sailsy, after the election I'd see it as PM Abbott, and Treasurer Turnbull. Malcolm has shown a bit more discipline lately. Too much talent to be ignored.

No disrespect is meant for Joe Hockey, a good soldier, and will make a good Foreign Minister. I doubt that the delegates at the UN will mind the transition from the present Foreign Minister for America.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> No disrespect is meant for Joe Hockey, a good soldier, and will make a good Foreign Minister.



Goodness, do you really think so?   I'd have thought he's decidedly lacking in diplomatic skills.



> I doubt that the delegates at the UN will mind the transition from the present Foreign Minister for America.



Did you listen to Patrick Cook's remarks (via Counterpoint of yesterday) about the (non) value of Mr Carr as Foreign Minister.  Pretty funny.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/counterpoint/patrick-cook/3857558


----------



## sptrawler

Love him or hate him, but Tony has a way of getting on the governments achilles heel.
He is a real pain in the ar$e for the government, doesn't get side tracked onto their agenda. Just highlights their problems, he is doing a great job IMO.
Don't know how he will go if he becomes P.M.

But Howard was doing a great job and we wanted change. So why not have change when they are doing a crap job.LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...el-dont-want-smith-abbott-20120310-1uqvd.html


----------



## joea

Word of the day..Ineptocracy....

A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> Word of the day..Ineptocracy....
> 
> A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
> 
> joea




Got it in one


----------



## rumpole

joea said:


> Word of the day..Ineptocracy....
> 
> A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
> 
> joea




Indeed. We can only hope that inept people with $70 billion black holes in their budgets don't get elected.


----------



## sptrawler

rumpole said:


> Indeed. We can only hope that inept people with $70 billion black holes in their budgets don't get elected.




Yes we hope the inept ones who dug the hole get re elected, like that would make sense.


----------



## rumpole

sptrawler said:


> Yes we hope the inept ones who dug the hole get re elected, like that would make sense.




What hole ? Compared with us most other countries are at the bottom of the Mariana trench.


----------



## MrBurns

Ahhhhh it's just like home


----------



## rumpole

MrBurns said:


> Ahhhhh it's just like home




Indeed. Just putting my feet up and relaxing Trumpy old chap !


----------



## startrader

rumpole said:


> What hole ? Compared with us most other countries are at the bottom of the Mariana trench.




Well we'll be fast joining them at the rate this basket case of a government is getting us into debt.  

When Labor were voted in under Rudd we had no debt and a *surplus* of over $20 billion, whereas we now have a 37 billion *deficit*.  We are borrowing $100 million per day and now owe over $200 billion, an amount which is increasing at a fast rate every day.  The interest alone on this money which we have to pay back is $100 billion.  All for what?  Just so we can watch it being grossly mismanaged and wasted!


----------



## rumpole

startrader said:


> Well we'll be fast joining them at the rate this basket case of a government is getting us into debt.
> 
> When Labor were voted in under Rudd we had no debt and a *surplus* of over $20 billion, whereas we now have a 37 billion *deficit*.  We are borrowing $100 million per day and now owe over $200 billion, an amount which is increasing at a fast rate every day.  The interest alone on this money which we have to pay back is $100 billion.  All for what?  Just so we can watch it being grossly mismanaged and wasted!




I suppose you are going to bring up pink batts and school halls ? At least they are assets we didn't have before, and which kept people in work and the money flowing in the economy.

If you want to bring up waste and mismanagement, consider the baby bonus, a socialist nanny state handout from Peter Costello costing us billions or Tony Abbott's great big new tax on business to pay for maternity leave, another nanny state socialist proposal from a so called Conservative. (or is he a coconut, hard on the outside , soft and squishy inside ?)


----------



## sptrawler

rumpole said:


> I suppose you are going to bring up pink batts and school halls ? At least they are assets we didn't have before, and which kept people in work and the money flowing in the economy.
> 
> If you want to bring up waste and mismanagement, consider the baby bonus, a socialist nanny state handout from Peter Costello costing us billions or Tony Abbott's great big new tax on business to pay for maternity leave, another nanny state socialist proposal from a so called Conservative. (or is he a coconut, hard on the outside , soft and squishy inside ?)




Why encourage Australians to have more kids, just import more people or better still bring them in through Christmas Island like Bob and Julia do.LOL 
Lets not get into great big new taxes, labor have to introduce them to back fill the great big spending hole. There is still a mountain of batts sitting rotting in a yard in a Perth suburb.LOL,,LOL
I wonder what Bob is going to get Julia to do next, magic government.

Yep after 4 years of mismanagement we are going to hopefully spend less than we make next year, at last. It has taken a while, but hey everyone knew from last time, we are not the best money managers. Cut us some slack.LOL,LOL


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> Lets not get into great big new taxes, labor have to introduce them to back fill the great big spending hole.
> 
> Yep after 4 years of mismanagement we are going to hopefully spend less than we make next year, at last. It has taken a while, but hey everyone knew from last time, we are not the best money managers. Cut us some slack.LOL,LOL




Federal Government Budget Structural Deficit

The issue is falling revenue as pointed out on the insiders the problem is structural and if Swan cuts to the degree required to make it to surplus then that will be the biggest in the history of Australian government.

How do you think that will turn out for those weak growth rate states like SA, TAS, NSW and VIC.  

Be careful what you wish for the Eastern States mind you us in WA should be just fine.:


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> I suppose you are going to bring up pink batts and school halls ? At least they are assets we didn't have before, and which kept people in work and the money flowing in the economy.
> 
> If you want to bring up waste and mismanagement, consider the baby bonus, a socialist nanny state handout from Peter Costello costing us billions or Tony Abbott's great big new tax on business to pay for maternity leave, another nanny state socialist proposal from a so called Conservative. (or is he a coconut, hard on the outside , soft and squishy inside ?)



So may we conclude that you're entirely happy with the present government?

You are under no obligation to answer this, of course, but have you ever voted other than Labor?


----------



## rumpole

Julia said:


> So may we conclude that you're entirely happy with the present government?
> 
> You are under no obligation to answer this, of course, but have you ever voted other than Labor?




Of course I'm not entirely happy with the Labor government, and I certainly wouldn't be entirely happy with a Liberal government either.

 If the Howard government had invested their gains in infrastructure like rail and power stations instead of expecting the private sector to do something that they never have I may well have voted for them.

But both parties have lost the plot, surrendered to the globalisation con job and are trying to out Conservative each other . There is no real choice, but Labor may at least do something about our run down infrastructure.


----------



## sptrawler

rumpole said:


> Of course I'm not entirely happy with the Labor government, and I certainly wouldn't be entirely happy with a Liberal government either.
> 
> If the Howard government had invested their gains in infrastructure like rail and power stations instead of expecting the private sector to do something that they never have I may well have voted for them.




What do you mean, invest in infrastructure after they finished paying off the $90 billion debt they inherited from the last labor government.

Very similar to what is happening again this time, this labor government has gone from no debt to $200billion+. 
Maybe Rumpole you can enlighten me on what infrastructure they have put in, with all that spending?
Then when the coalition get in and pay down the labor debt, again, you will be able to bag them for not putting in infrastructure.
Jeez you should sit down and have a think about your logic.


----------



## rumpole

sptrawler said:


> What do you mean, invest in infrastructure after they finished paying off the $90 billion debt they inherited from the last labor government.
> 
> Very similar to what is happening again this time, this labor government has gone from no debt to $200billion+.
> Maybe Rumpole you can enlighten me on what infrastructure they have put in, with all that spending?
> Then when the coalition get in and pay down the labor debt, again, you will be able to bag them for not putting in infrastructure.
> Jeez you should sit down and have a think about your logic.





What infrastructure ? The NBN for one.

Costello and Howard bragged about a $20 billion surplus and no debt and what did they do with it ? Wasted it on a nanny state socialist baby bonus instead of replacing tired power stations and related infrastructure. The result of not doing that is that power prices are now on the way up. If you don't have relatively cheap and reliable power supplies how can you get investment ? Narrow thinking.


----------



## sptrawler

rumpole said:


> What infrastructure ? The NBN for one.
> 
> Costello and Howard bragged about a $20 billion surplus and no debt and what did they do with it ? Wasted it on a nanny state socialist baby bonus instead of replacing tired power stations and related infrastructure. The result of not doing that is that power prices are now on the way up. If you don't have relatively cheap and reliable power supplies how can you get investment ? Narrow thinking.




Mate they haven't started paying for the NBN yet.
So what infrastructure have we got for the $200 billion already spent.LOL

Relatively cheap and reliable power supplies, the carbon tax is going to shoot that out of the water.
Since when has the federal government put in power stations, I think you'll find that is a state government function.LOL
Rumpole can you give me some of whatever your smoking.

By the way what did Costello and Howard do with the $20billion, they didn't waste it. Rudd and the goon show inherited it, then they wasted it and heaps more.LOL


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> Of course I'm not entirely happy with the Labor government, and I certainly wouldn't be entirely happy with a Liberal government either.
> 
> If the Howard government had invested their gains in infrastructure like rail and power stations instead of expecting the private sector to do something that they never have I may well have voted for them.
> 
> But both parties have lost the plot, surrendered to the globalisation con job and are trying to out Conservative each other . There is no real choice, but Labor may at least do something about our run down infrastructure.




Rumpy meet Julia, I think you'll get along just fine


----------



## rumpole

sptrawler said:


> Since when has the federal government put in power stations, I think you'll find that is a state government function.LOL
> Rumpole can you give me some of whatever your smoking.




Ever heard of the Snowy Mountains Scheme ? Wait for state governments and you die waiting.

I don't smoke, but maybe I'll start now..:bong:


----------



## noco

rumpole said:


> Ever heard of the Snowy Mountains Scheme ? Wait for state governments and you die waiting.
> 
> I don't smoke, but maybe I'll start now..:bong:




Yes and the smoke will probably come out through your ears instead of your mouth because there ain't nothin' between them.


----------



## rumpole

noco said:


> Yes and the smoke will probably come out through your ears instead of your mouth because there ain't nothin' between them.




Ahhh abuse. The last refuge of the fool...


----------



## noco

rumpole said:


> Ahhh abuse. The last refuge of the fool...





Take the blikers off rumpole and you will bound  to see all the faults of this inept Green/Labor government. The anomalies and faults have been listed time and time again on this forum. 
The stuff ups, the wasted money and the scandals that continue to haunt Gillard, Rudd, Arbib, Craig Thomson and now Smith.


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> But both parties have lost the plot, surrendered to the globalisation con job and are trying to out Conservative each other .



That's an unusual take on a Labor government whose agenda is being driven almost entirely by The Greens.

Under this government, we are seeing an ever expanding nanny state.

If the Libs will do nothing else, they will at least halt the exponential increase in telling the electorate what they may and may not do.  If Labor keep up their intended inhibition of free speech, get the level of censorship they desire, and impinge on people's personal freedoms at this rate, we will soon be a nation of zombies, incapable of taking personal responsibility for running our own lives.


----------



## rumpole

Julia said:


> .... and impinge on people's personal freedoms at this rate, we will soon be a nation of zombies, incapable of taking personal responsibility for running our own lives.




Oh right, and the baby bonus and paid maternity leave funded by business are not  nanny state wastes of money which remove personal responsibility at the expense of the state and business ?


----------



## wayneL

rumpole said:


> Oh right, and the baby bonus and paid maternity leave funded by business are not  nanny state wastes of money which remove personal responsibility at the expense of the state and business ?




Well Rumpole I agree with you there. But I can't agree the parties are out conservatising each other, more like out socialismizing each other (as you rightly pint out)... with Labor's experience showing and them way ahead on points.

In fact if Turnbull leads again, we'll effectively have two Labor parties.


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> Oh right, and the baby bonus and paid maternity leave funded by business are not  nanny state wastes of money which remove personal responsibility at the expense of the state and business ?



No, they should both be wiped and should never have been introduced.

Rumpole, because I'm horrified by the present government with its massive waste and repugnant obedience to The Greens, it does not mean I believe all will be cured if Mr Abbott becomes Prime Minister.

I'm simply in favour of the (small l) liberal general philosophy which encourages people to take responsibility for themselves much more than Labor ever seem to.

The Abbott maternity leave scheme is just dreadful.  He is being very foolish in persisting with it.

The baby bonus was introduced, as I'm sure you know, by Peter Costello with the basis of that generation of children being around to fund the pensions of then old people.  I didn't ever like the idea but it did seem to have quite wide acceptance at the time.  In the event, too many people who wouldn't make particularly good parents having babies just to get the money, whilst those who would make the best parents probably were not influenced either way by that small amount of money.


----------



## rumpole

Julia said:


> In the event, too many people who wouldn't make particularly good parents having babies just to get the money, whilst those who would make the best parents probably were not influenced either way by that small amount of money.




Spot on there Julia. It seems the quantity of babies was considered more important than the quality.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> No, they should both be wiped and should never have been introduced..



Agreed. I didn't like it when Costello and Howard introduced it, I don't like it now under Labor, and I won't like it under the Coalition>2013. 

Almost obscenely selfish that the money isn't instead spent on boosting the skilled migrant intake. Migrants have a work ethic, as opposed to the complacent self-entitled mentality too often seen in in Aus.

Don't imagine for a moment that it won't be rorted by a minority of opportunists, i.e. stay with a company just long enough to qualify for maternity leave, then after the 18 weeks, or 6 months, leave, move on.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> The baby bonus was introduced, as I'm sure you know, by Peter Costello with the basis of that generation of children being around to fund the pensions of then old people.




Yes, Costello erred. These sub-prime qualitiy babies will grow up to be welfare recipients like their parents, and will naturally vote Labor to keep the welfare coming.


----------



## Logique

The usual finger wagging sanctimony from Plibersek. The Farmer of the Year wasn't going to be cut any slack by the Minister for Health.



> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/.../spare_me_the_praise_that_damns/#commentsmore
> 
> [Q&A last night]..So patronising and condescending toward Michael O’Brien the farmer, what would he know right? Mocked over and over - there was nothing wrong with his point about white man only being here 200 years, and the climate records even less. Plibersek can be quite disgusting in her patronisong manner, and Turnbull defending Flannery - verballed? Turnbull is a disgrace and he will never lead the LNP again. He just doesn’t get it.
> Plibersek gets a round of applause every time she speaks, it’s nauseating!
> merveille of murrumbeena (Reply)
> Mon 12 Mar 12


----------



## dutchie

Bob Carrs' attack on Tony Abbott is pretty ordinary and weird.

"With an eye to domestic politics, Senator Carr launched an attack on Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, describing him as a "cheapskate hypnotist".

"He's saying to the electorate, 'Look into my eyes, you are growing weaker - no more boats'," Mr Carr said.

"'Look into my eyes, you are growing weaker in Labor's big bad tax'.

"'Look into my eyes, you are growing weaker - debt and deficit'."


Bob has already joined the chorus line - "it's all Tony Abbott's fault"

Move along folks nothing new here - I think some people, mistakenly, thought he would be different.


----------



## Eager

dutchie said:


> Move along folks nothing new here - I think some people, mistakenly, thought he would be different.



Rather, he is just like Downer when he had the gig, keeping involved in the domestic crap by attacking the opposition of the day whenever he saw fit.

Yes?


----------



## rumpole

Eager said:


> Rather, he is just like Downer when he had the gig, keeping involved in the domestic crap by attacking the opposition of the day whenever he saw fit.
> 
> Yes?




Sure. That's what Gillard intended no doubt.


----------



## drsmith

At the next election, it won't matter whether the Coalition is led by Tony Abbott, Malcolm Turnbull or Daffy Duck.

Labor will still lose big.


----------



## Logique

dutchie said:


> .."He's saying to the electorate, 'Look into my eyes, you are growing weaker - no more boats'," Mr Carr said..



He he, it takes one to know one. NSW people will just roll their eyes and move on. Rhetoric and propaganda, it's all Labor-Greens have left to cling to, with their policy suite almost completely discredited.


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> Bob Carrs' attack on Tony Abbott is pretty ordinary and weird.
> .




I am no expert on body language, but Carr  come for the stage of the "Harry Potter" MOVIES.
joea


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> At the next election, it won't matter whether the Coalition is led by Tony Abbott, Malcolm Turnbull or Daffy Duck.
> 
> Labor will still lose big.




But by then , at what cost to the nation?
e.g. Just revisit the Humpty Dumpty poem.
joea


----------



## dutchie

The Labor party is going to save heaps of money at the next election. All their banners, advertising, policy announcements (one) etc will be covered by the only policy they have:-

ITS ALL TONY ABBOTTS FAULT


----------



## Logique

I'd like the odds on (Head of the CSIRO) Dr Megan Clark receiving phone calls from the PM and Bob Brown today. 



> The CSIRO and Bureau shame themselves
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/
> Our top climate authorities have proved once again how they’ve turned themselves into propagandists for the warmist faith.
> The State of the Climate report released yesterday by the CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology is a disgrace. Its omissions, red herrings and cherry picking shame both organisations.






> CSIRO denies its head, Megan Clark, has any conflict of interest over carbon store role
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...arbon-store-role/story-fn59niix-1226170818106
> THE head of the CSIRO is at the centre of conflict of interest claims over her role as a director of a Tasmanian company that purchases land for carbon sequestration.
> It was revealed in Senate estimates today that the peak science body's chief executive Megan Clark is the director of Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd and is also on the board of Bank of America Merrill Lynch.
> Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd is a private family company that sets aside land to store carbon as part of efforts to combat climate change.


----------



## MrBurns

Wouldnt surprise me one bit, crooks all of them.


----------



## rumpole

*"It was revealed in Senate estimates today that the peak science body's chief executive Megan Clark is the director of Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd and is also on the board of Bank of America Merrill Lynch.
Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd is a private family company that sets aside land to store carbon as part of efforts to combat climate change."*

 You obviously don't know much about peer review.

 If scientists present dodgy data, their peers let them and the public know about pdq.

I doubt if eminent scientists from CSIRO and the BOM would knowingly present fraudulent data.

If you think they have, say so.


----------



## rumpole

rumpole said:


> *"It was revealed in Senate estimates today that the peak science body's chief executive Megan Clark is the director of Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd and is also on the board of Bank of America Merrill Lynch.
> Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd is a private family company that sets aside land to store carbon as part of efforts to combat climate change."*
> 
> You obviously don't know much about peer review.
> 
> If scientists present dodgy data, their peers let them and the public know about pdq.
> 
> I doubt if eminent scientists from CSIRO and the BOM would knowingly present fraudulent data.
> 
> If you think they have, say so.




Of course that eminent scientist Andrew Bolt thinks so, so it's obviously true, right ?


----------



## wayneL

rumpole said:


> *"It was revealed in Senate estimates today that the peak science body's chief executive Megan Clark is the director of Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd and is also on the board of Bank of America Merrill Lynch.
> Cradle Mountain Carbon Pty Ltd is a private family company that sets aside land to store carbon as part of efforts to combat climate change."*
> 
> You obviously don't know much about peer review.
> 
> If scientists present dodgy data, their peers let them and the public know about pdq.
> 
> I doubt if eminent scientists from CSIRO and the BOM would knowingly present fraudulent data.
> 
> If you think they have, say so.




Climate "science" does not... cannot follow scientific method. IOW it is not falsifiable, but must merely be plausible.

Hence peer review in this field does not carry the import it does in others.

It may or may not be fraudulent, but the data is highly open to interpretation in both causation and effect.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> He he, it takes one to know one. NSW people will just roll their eyes and move on. Rhetoric and propaganda, it's all Labor-Greens have left to cling to, with their policy suite almost completely discredited.




Its a proven method ask Abbott


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Climate "science" does not... cannot follow scientific method. IOW it is not falsifiable, but must merely be plausible.
> 
> Hence peer review in this field does not carry the import it does in others.
> 
> It may or may not be fraudulent, but the data is highly open to interpretation in both causation and effect.




What a load of complete rubbish, publishing and peer review allows for challenge of the position or emulation that confirms nothing to do with importance.

What a howler of a statement pfffff


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> What a load of complete rubbish, publishing and peer review allows for challenge of the position or emulation that confirms nothing to do with importance.
> 
> What a howler of a statement pfffff




I stand by it.


----------



## explod

wayneL said:


> Climate "science" does not... cannot follow scientific method. IOW it is not falsifiable, but must merely be plausible.
> 
> Hence peer review in this field does not carry the import it does in others.
> 
> It may or may not be fraudulent, but the data is highly open to interpretation in both causation and effect.




You speak of clear English but I notice you are great user of acronyms.  I have had a look at it but would like your explanation and/or the meaning of "IOW".

To me they are weeds in sentences and more often cloud meaning, or is that the purpose ole pal.


----------



## drsmith

In terms of managing global carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere, what will a carbon price of $23/tonne in Australia (and rising each year) achieve ?

This is one core question Labor and their allies in government have to answer.

The other is the position Labor took to the electorate at the last election.


----------



## sails

explod said:


> You speak of clear English but I notice you are great user of acronyms.  I have had a look at it but would like your explanation and/or the meaning of "IOW".
> 
> To me they are weeds in sentences and more often cloud meaning, or is that the purpose ole pal.





IOW = in other words

OH, lol = laughing out loud

Do you get the idea? - nothing sinister at all


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> In terms of managing global carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere, what will a carbon price of $23/tonne in Australia (and rising each year) achieve ?
> 
> This is one core question Labor and their allies in government have to answer.
> 
> The other is the position Labor took to the electorate at the last election.




LOL - does Gillard ever actually answer am awkward question without skirting around it?  I don't think we will ever get such answers from this lot.


----------



## explod

sails said:


> LOL - does Gillard ever actually answer am awkward question without skirting around it?  I don't think we will ever get such answers from this lot.




John Howard used to ignore the question altogether and give an answer to his own question.

I did a course some years back where an experienced media professional taught us just that, ignore the sticky question and get your one liner in for the message you want to get out.

Julia is not as bad as Johnny was IMHO


----------



## Tink

Yep have to agree there explod, Howard annoyed me at the end, just ignoring questions and going off in his own direction, with Bush

I think Gillard is on the same par at the moment, if an election came, she would be out.


----------



## Logique

rumpole said:


> Of course that eminent scientist Andrew Bolt thinks so, so it's obviously true, right ?



That's a straw man argument. Bolt never claimed to be a climate scientist. Nor did the peer review process work too well for the IPCC. Didn't pick up the hockey stick graph howler either.


----------



## sptrawler

Wouldn't it be a laugh if Clive Palmer is correct and the carbon tax is unconstitutional. Wouldn't be the first time this government hasn't checked the legality of what it is doing.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...x-constitutional/story-e6frg90f-1226300131377

Talk about egg on your face, it would show them to be the goons they are.IMO


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Talk about egg on your face, it would show them to be the goons they are.IMO




I think the train left the station on that one a long time ago


----------



## sptrawler

Well it didn't take Bob Carr long to get a dose of the labor foot in mouth desease.
Plenty of room in the goon show for another one.LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...om-png-sanctions-comments-20120316-1v9o4.html


----------



## dutchie

Yes the RED team are fantastic at managing the Australian economy.

The RED team treasurer must be very proud.


----------



## sails

dutchie said:


> Yes the RED team are fantastic at managing the Australian economy.
> 
> The RED team treasurer must be very proud.




And what is there to show for all this spending?

I believe that Qld is now something like $85 billion which equates to about $1 billion per electorate...


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> Yes the RED team are fantastic at managing the Australian economy.
> 
> The RED team treasurer must be very proud.




That can't be right we have the 'worlds best treasurer'. 

Oh I know, it shows the spending on infrastructure, like UMM and you know that other thingey and lets not forget that thingamajig we built, you know the one. LOL,LOL,LOL

Oh hang on now I remember, we are spending a bit on new detention centres and there is quite a bit being spent checking out some pink batts in ceilings. There I knew I would come up with something.


----------



## Miss Hale

sptrawler said:


> That can't be right we have the 'worlds best treasurer'.
> 
> Oh I know, it shows the spending on infrastructure, like UMM and you know that other thingey and lets not forget that thingamajig we built, you know the one. LOL,LOL,LOL
> 
> Oh hang on now I remember, we are spending a bit on new detention centres and there is quite a bit being spent checking out some pink batts in ceilings. There I knew I would come up with something.




You forgot the NBN 

I always think this thread is misnamed, surely it's the Brown government not the Gillard government


----------



## noco

Miss Hale said:


> You forgot the NBN
> 
> I always think this thread is misnamed, surely it's the Brown government not the Gillard government




No, it is the Green/Labor socialist left wing government in the grey area of communism.


----------



## joea

Hi.
For some time I have attempted to find a quote to sum up Julia Gillard and Labor.

'"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

Sir Winston Churchill...
joea


----------



## explod

noco said:


> No, it is the Green/Labor socialist left wing government in the grey area of communism.




One sweeping statement deserves another.

(a)   In a socialist state the people own the place collectively;

(b)   In the current system, which defies a label, the few rich own it all and the ordinary  people (the workers) pay the debts via taxation, utility costs, mortgages and rent.   Its  called private enterprise;  and

(c)   Communism is totalitarianism and is where the US could be heading the way they are going.   So take care for what you wish for.

We are still the lucky country and the ballot box is not rigged here either.  So be well pleased at where you are living.  And,, we don't shoot at each other either.

The collection of the Libs., Labor and the Greens is the average of us.


----------



## sptrawler

explod said:


> We are still the lucky country and the ballot box is not rigged here either.  So be well pleased at where you are living.  And,, we don't shoot at each other either.
> 
> The collection of the Libs., Labor and the Greens is the average of us.




Well said explod, fortunately our worste government is better than most other countries best.
It is indeed a wonderfull place.


----------



## joea

explod said:


> One sweeping statement deserves another.
> 
> (c)   Communism is totalitarianism and is where the US could be heading the way they are going.   So take care for what you wish for.




"Communism doesn't work because people want to own stuff."  Frank Zappa.

joea


----------



## joea

explod said:


> One sweeping statement deserves another
> 
> (b)   In the current system, which defies a label, the few rich own it all and the ordinary  people (the workers) pay the debts via taxation, utility costs, mortgages and rent.   Its  called private enterprise;  and




"That some should be rich, shows others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise".
Abraham Lincoln
joea


----------



## joea

explod said:


> One sweeping statement deserves another.
> 
> (a)   In a socialist state the people own the place collectively;




"Socialism is nothing but capitalism of the lower classes."  Oswald Spengler

"If government could create jobs and raise children, socialism would have worked."
George Gilder
joea


----------



## sptrawler

explod said:


> (a)   In a socialist state the people own the place collectively;




I suppose you have to add what Churchill said.

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill



Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/winstonchu164131.html#ixzz1pMt5nSc2


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> (c)   Communism is totalitarianism and is where the US could be heading the way they are going.



Could you explain the basis for this assertion?


----------



## rumpole

Julia said:


> Could you explain the basis for this assertion?




I doubt it


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Well it didn't take Bob Carr long to get a dose of the labor foot in mouth desease.
> Plenty of room in the goon show for another one.LOL
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...om-png-sanctions-comments-20120316-1v9o4.html




Well it looks like Bob's been to the Gillard school of denial.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/13189312/australias-fm-says-misunderstood-on-png-furore/

I never said that and if I did say that it didn't mean that, that being said I would never have said that, if that being said was going to be re said. 
Next question please.


----------



## sails

rumpole said:


> I doubt it


----------



## Logique

Vale Margaret Whitlam, a fine Australian. 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/margaret-whitlam-dies-aged-92-20120317-1vbq4.html


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> Vale Margaret Whitlam, a fine Australian.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/margaret-whitlam-dies-aged-92-20120317-1vbq4.html




Yes a sad day.


----------



## dutchie

I have watched the circus of Question Time (only for the comedy content) and am blown away by the amount of attention Tony Abbott gets.

Every time a minister is asked a question invariably his/her answer will contain an attack on Tony Abbott. The percentage of time they spend on this aspect is between 50% - 100% of their allotted time. 

I have never seen such a concentrated fixation on one item by a Government. Surely they could make better use of this time.

Are we getting our monies worth or should Question Time be completely abolished as it serves no purpose in its current form.


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> Are we getting our monies worth or should Question Time be completely abolished as it serves no purpose in its current form.




Either abolish it or rename it Labor Campaign Time.
joea


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> I have watched the circus of Question Time (only for the comedy content) and am blown away by the amount of attention Tony Abbott gets.
> 
> Every time a minister is asked a question invariably his/her answer will contain an attack on Tony Abbott. The percentage of time they spend on this aspect is between 50% - 100% of their allotted time.
> 
> I have never seen such a concentrated fixation on one item by a Government. Surely they could make better use of this time.
> 
> Are we getting our monies worth or should Question Time be completely abolished as it serves no purpose in its current form.




These personal attacks by labor are becoming a bit over the top and from what I have read it is a ploy that Gillards P.R man from the U.K has introduced.
I can understand it may work there, but I think it will backfire big time here. Anna Bligh has tried it in Queensland, we will see how successful it was next weekend. 
If labor are absolutely smashed, I think we will see an about face and Julia MK1111 will be rolled out


----------



## tinhat

Reading the political discussions on these fora is like listening to Alan Jones but without the ads.


----------



## wayneL

tinhat said:


> Reading the political discussions on these fora is like listening to Alan Jones but without the ads.




Do you have a point?


----------



## Julia

tinhat said:


> Reading the political discussions on these fora is like listening to Alan Jones but without the ads.




Tinhat, this is, I think, the second or third time you've made a sarcastic comment about the contributions to this and other political threads.
I've previously asked you to - instead of just tossing around criticism - make a genuine comment of your own about the current political situation.

That would be much more constructive than the continued sarcasm, wouldn't it?

If you're not willing to do that, then perhaps consider just ignoring the threads that so irritate you.


----------



## joea

This week in politics could have a lasting impression on the changing of the "guard" in Australia.
It appears Qld will go LNP on Saturday.
A combined group of LNP states will go to COAG in April.
A combined union group comes out today stating they will keep the Qantas banner in Australia.
Smith announces he is going to buy some gear.
Gillard announces a skill package booklet of in excess of 80 pages, with 34 pages either blank or pictures. Gillard almost swallows her tongue when she is asked why she just did not publish a smaller booklet to keep costs down.

Campbell Newman releases a booklet on LNP first 100 days should they win the election.

Is the Gonski fiasco about a new Chairman, or attempting to butter up the board members to allow a short term loan to the Federal Government under Gonski.?
After all, if the Federal Government attempts to lift the deficit limit again(and parliament refuses) then they have to have a reserve supply from somewhere.

After all Peter Costello originally stated that Labor would attempt to waste some of the Future Fund on one or more of their spending sprees.
joea


----------



## bigdog

It is outrageous that the labour govt is claiming the credit for the 3% superannuation when in fact that the employer's will be paying the 3% plus 4.9% payroll tax in Victoria!

A company business makes $1,000,000 profit before tax.  The tax is currently 30% or $300,000.

The employees payroll totals $4,000,000 which will increase 3% for the superannuation change from 9% to 12% and will result in additional payroll costs of $120,000 plus payroll 4.9% tax of $5,880 for total $125,880 additional costs.

By reducing tax to 29% will result in a saving of $10,000 ($300,000 reduced to $290,000).

This business will be $115,880 worse off ($125,880-10000 less $10,000).

119


----------



## MrBurns

bigdog said:


> It is outrageous that the labour govt is claiming the credit for the 3% superannuation when in fact that the employer's will be paying the 3% plus 4.9% payroll tax in Victoria!
> 
> A company business makes $1,000,000 profit before tax.  The tax is currently 30% or $300,000.
> 
> The employees payroll totals $4,000,000 which will increase 3% for the superannuation change from 9% to 12% and will result in additional payroll costs of $120,000 plus payroll 4.9% tax of $5,880 for total $125,880 additional costs.
> 
> By reducing tax to 29% will result in a saving of $10,000 ($300,000 reduced to $290,000).
> 
> This business will be $115,880 worse off ($125,880-10000 less $10,000).




Just more smoke and mirrors, by the time the Libs get in it will be too late to change much, just try and salvage something from the wreckage. As usual Labor have buggered everything they touch.


----------



## moXJO

I mentioned with some interest about labors so called 'small business friendly measures' a few weeks ago. Turns out it was yet another labor farce.

This interview shows they either don't know their own policy, or are simply happy to lie about it.


> Gai Brodtmann struggles to explain Labor's plan to lift the super guarantee.QUESTION: With the company tax cuts that Labor wants to work with the Greens to try and get passed, Tony Abbott is saying that about 70 per cent of businesses won't benefit from those company tax cuts because they're not incorporated. What do you say to that?
> 
> BRODTMANN: Well, as someone who used to have a small business, this is going to benefit millions of Australian small businesses as well. It's not just the tax cuts to business; it's also the superannuation benefits to 8.4 million Australians. So there's significant knock-on effects and benefits from this tax and bring it on, I say.
> 
> QUESTION: That superannuation is paid for by the businesses; it's not paid for by the government.
> 
> 
> BRODTMANN: Well, the superannuation will be, in terms of how it is paid for, discussed in enterprise agreements over coming years. It's going to be phased in over time and it will be subject to those enterprise agreements.
> 
> QUESTION: [inaudible] 15 per cent tax rate contributions [inaudible].
> 
> BRODTMANN: This tax is all about sharing Australia's wealth, right throughout the country. So it's not in the hands of a few, it's the hands of many and so what we've got is benefits to millions of Australians in terms of superannuation boosts and also tax cuts to small business.
> 
> QUESTION: But that superannuation isn't coming from the miners -- it's coming from those small businesses that you say need the help.
> 
> BRODTMANN: Those discussions will be held over time once it's phased in.
> 
> QUESTION: What does that mean, sorry?




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/treasury/labor-is-pro-small-business-we-are-friends-of-small-business/story-fn59nsif-1226307686552

Oh and the Small Business Commissioner



> But Gillard's Small Business Commissioner seems to have no powers, according to the information released. The Commissioner will simply be a flapping mouth, able to talk to government about small business, and give opinions but do nothing of substance. *Labor's undertaking to small business people is lots of talk about pretending to do something but doing nothing.*



http://www.contractworld.com.au/discussions/ken-phillips-treachery-behind-Labors-small-business-curtain.php
The sentence in bold sums up the labor government in a nutshell.


----------



## Julia

Yes, and they are all perpetuating this same myth - that the MRRT is going to go toward paying the increased super for all Australians.  Wayne Swan has implied this and almost said it in so many words on multiple occasions, and it's probably why there seems to be pretty widespread acceptance in the electorate about the MRRT.

Mr Abbott can't say much because he himself is going to whack business for his ridiculous maternity leave scheme.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...Mr Abbott can't say much because he himself is going to whack business for his ridiculous maternity leave scheme.




Yes, that ridiculous maternity leave scheme needs to go, imo.

And yet, amazingly, rusted on laborites would defend such a scheme black and blue if it were a labor scheme.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> Mr Abbott can't say much because he himself is going to whack business for his ridiculous maternity leave scheme.



 Agree
Abbotts maternity leave just leaves a bad taste.
If labor actually threw some decent reform and planned direction up for small business I would have voted for them. But over and over again they have shown they are against, or do not understand small business and the self employed. 


Bruce Bilson is the shadow minister for small business







> he's laid out a vision for major economic reform. It's significant because the package of measures starts with the idea of small business as the key to the economy and 'works up'. This is a reversal of the usual thinking that starts with big business and 'pushes down'.




Speech is here

Once again talk is cheap, but liberals have always been better in this area. I'm at a point now where I would donate money to libs campaign fund to help get rid of fed labor on this issue. There is a lot to dislike on libs front bench though, needs a reshuffle.


----------



## bigdog

moXJO said:


> I mentioned with some interest about labors so called 'small business friendly measures' a few weeks ago. Turns out it was yet another labor farce.
> 
> This interview shows they either don't know their own policy, or are simply happy to lie about it.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/treasury/labor-is-pro-small-business-we-are-friends-of-small-business/story-fn59nsif-1226307686552
> 
> Oh and the Small Business Commissioner
> 
> 
> http://www.contractworld.com.au/discussions/ken-phillips-treachery-behind-Labors-small-business-curtain.php
> The sentence in bold sums up the labor government in a nutshell.
> 
> Gai Brodtmann struggles to explain Labor's plan to lift the super guarantee.QUESTION: With the company tax cuts that Labor wants to work with the Greens to try and get passed, Tony Abbott is saying that about 70 per cent of businesses won't benefit from those company tax cuts because they're not incorporated. What do you say to that?




http://www.actlabor.org.au/blog/70-gai-brodtmann-labor-candidate-for-canberra

*Gai Brodtmann: Labor Candidate for Canberra * 
Written by Gai Brodtmann     
Monday, 02 August 2010 10:00  

Like so many of us, I chose to live in Canberra. I first came here in 1982 to study at the Australian National University and I came back for good in 1990 to a job with the Attorney General’s Department. 

I joined the public service because I wanted to contribute to improving people’s lives. Then, as now, I believe public service can make a difference in large and small ways. 

*I worked in several agencies before striking out on my own 10 years ago, setting up a small business developing and implementing communication plans for clients in the public and private sector.*

Sounds like a small business employing one person/consultant!!!

Does anyone know how many staff Gai employed?


----------



## Frank D

Julia said:


> Mr Abbott can't say much because he himself is going to whack business for his ridiculous maternity leave scheme.




I don’t agree with Abbot’s maternity leave scheme because it’s too generous, but 
it could be a smart move in the long term if you look at it as  ‘social engineering’ 

Abbott won’t say it, but my best guess would be this… Abbott doesn’t want the
 child birth rate of lower social-economic Australians outstripping those from higher
social-economic positions 

If that happens then the there is a greater chance there will many more generations
 on the government welfare i.e handouts, health, government-housing, Crime, Obesity…etc
 This would be disastrous in the long run. 

In a nutshell, birth rates from women/families that earn higher incomes need to
 be encouraged.

And if this is the best way to achieve it then I’m all for it, as long as they find a way
 of not hurting small business with more taxes and levies, which they can't.


----------



## IFocus

Frank D said:


> I don’t agree with Abbot’s maternity leave scheme because it’s too generous, but
> it could be a smart move in the long term if you look at it as  ‘social engineering’
> 
> Abbott won’t say it, but my best guess would be this… Abbott doesn’t want the
> child birth rate of lower social-economic Australians outstripping those from higher
> social-economic positions
> 
> If that happens then the there is a greater chance there will many more generations
> on the government welfare i.e handouts, health, government-housing, Crime, Obesity…etc
> This would be disastrous in the long run.
> 
> In a nutshell, birth rates from women/families that earn higher incomes need to
> be encouraged.
> 
> And if this is the best way to achieve it then I’m all for it, as long as they find a way
> of not hurting small business with more taxes and levies, which they can't.




Wouldn't you look at fixing up the problem at the bottom rather than throw money at the top FCS we are all Australians.

Nothing like a class war eh Frank. 

Who is going to do the fighting come the next war the grunts certainly wont come from the top end of town.

As for obesity seen Gina or Clive lately.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Nothing like a class war eh Frank.
> 
> .




Labor and their supporters seem to want to provoke one. Desperate measures from a bent government.


----------



## dutchie

The longer the Labor government makes us wait for the next election the more the rout will be like the Queensland result.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> The longer the Labor government makes us wait for the next election the more the rout will be like the Queensland result.




Gillard will lie and smarmy her way from here on more than usual to try to get the public on side, she's got a year to lie her way to a better position, but she is so utterly incompetant with brains trusts like Swan (Goofy) and Albanese (almost simple) Crean (Slimy Simey) and the rest of them it will be very hard for her not to stuff up further.

We shouldnt feel too smug, can you imagine the mess that will have to be cleaned up after she's thown out on a hefty pension ?


----------



## Ferret

I don’t follow Queensland politics very closely, but I understand one of the main forces behind the Labor annihilation was Bligh’s lie over asset sales.  

It’s very obvious that federal Labor’s forthcoming decimation will similarly be due to Gillard’s lie to the electorate over the carbon tax.

I wonder if she ever feels any regrets over that?   Perhaps federal Labor would still be in with a chance if not for that one single blunder?


----------



## dutchie

The Labor Government should:

1. Keep Julia as PM
2. Keep the Carbon Tax going
3. Keep the mining tax going 
4. Keep the NBN going
5. Keep letting plenty of boat people join our happy land.
6. Keep rubbishing Tony Abbott.
7. Keep blaming Tony Abbott for anything that might go wrong in Australia
    (There is no reason why this could not be extended to encompass the worlds problems as well).
8. Keep lying to the electorate - they are use to it now and are ignorant.
9. Keep ignoring the state governments and threaten them if they step out of line.
10. Keep listening to the Greens - they have some great policies that will really benefit them.
11. Keep the world's greatest treasurer.
12. Keep recruiting old has-beens into the ministry.
13. Keep listening to the unions, they really have Australia's best interest at heart (and not heir own).
14. Keep your thumb on Australian business they are just like those nasty rich people
     and can be milked and milked and milked.
15. Keep restricting the press with new rules so that they are all like the ABC and SBS.
16. Keep spending lots of money (it does not matter on what) - there is lots and lots of it.

This is a sure fire recipe for success. (honest - would I lie to you?)


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> The Labor Government should:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a sure fire recipe for success. (honest - would I lie to you?)




In Gillard's case "Success is going from one failure to another, with no loss of enthusiasm". W. C.
But her job satisfaction is based on implementing more taxes on the Australian voter,
because its the best thing for Australia.
So where does she think we live??
joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> In Gillard's case "Success is going from one failure to another, with no loss of enthusiasm". W. C.
> But her job satisfaction is based on implementing more taxes on the Australian voter,
> because its the best thing for Australia.
> So where does she think we live??
> joea




I see she's nicked off overseas to get away from the Qld disaster, scampered out of the place like the sneaky lizard she is........hey Julia *GAME ON* Julia *ARE YOU LISTENING ?*


----------



## lenny

dutchie said:


> The longer the Labor government makes us wait for the next election the more the rout will be like the Queensland result.




Don't worry Juliars little white lie on the carbon tax will get in the end!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxniQ62Kt7A


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> I see she's nicked off overseas to get away from the Qld disaster, scampered out of the place like the sneaky lizard she is........hey Julia *GAME ON* Julia *ARE YOU LISTENING ?*




She was taking about scorecoards the other day, I suggest she check out the one in Queensland


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> I see she's nicked off overseas to get away from the Qld disaster, scampered out of the place like the sneaky lizard she is........hey Julia *GAME ON* Julia *ARE YOU LISTENING ?*



You are trying to give the impression that her trip was organised only since Saturday night.

You spruik nonsense.


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> You are trying to give the impression that her trip was organised only since Saturday night.
> 
> You spruik nonsense.




No it was obviously organised in advance as she knew what was coming, you should try to think a little more before you spruik nonsense.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> No it was obviously organised in advance as she knew what was coming, you should try to think a little more before you spruik nonsense.



You have just contradicted your previous post.


----------



## Knobby22

Umpire raises the finger!

Played onto wicket!


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> You have just contradicted your previous post.




Bulldust, this is what was posted and it;s true !!!



> I see she's nicked off overseas to get away from the Qld disaster, scampered out of the place like the sneaky lizard she is........


----------



## MrBurns

Well she's been cornered by the media and has had to answer some questions, she says "we have a lot of work to do" well when do you think you'll start ? you've had 2 years already.

Having a go at Abbott says he is acting like he has the election result in the bag, well derrrr 

Says Abbott is negative, yeah well so are millions while you're still PM

Arrogant, blinkered, no change and there wont be.


----------



## rumpole

MrBurns said:


> Well she's been cornered by the media and has had to answer some questions, she says "we have a lot of work to do" well when do you think you'll start ? you've had 2 years already.
> 
> Having a go at Abbott says he is acting like he has the election result in the bag, well derrrr
> 
> Says Abbott is negative, yeah well so are millions while you're still PM
> 
> Arrogant, blinkered, no change and there wont be.




I see the ABC tarnish has well and truly worn off and you have reverted to type


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> I see the ABC tarnish has well and truly worn off and you have reverted to type




Doesn't take long


----------



## rumpole

MrBurns said:


> Doesn't take long




If you ever miss us, we are over here

http://abcwhovians.webs.com/apps/forums/


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> If you ever miss us, we are over here
> 
> http://abcwhovians.webs.com/apps/forums/




Thanks for that Rumpy good looking site with quite a quite a few paricipants, I'm up to my ears in forums at present but will bookamrk it for future.

They really should have the posts text in black on white instead of the colours.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> Well she's been cornered by the media and has had to answer some questions,



But I thought you said that she has "Nicked off overseas to get away from the Qld disaster, scampered out of the place like the sneaky lizard she is........?" Why did you *pretend* that she was somehow going to avoid scruitiny over there? Moreover, why did you *pretend* that her trip was organised to clash with the day after election? And, why try to influence your cronies with such nonsense? Why your predilection for mischievous comments?



MrBurns said:


> Arrogant, blinkered, no change and there wont be.



Quite MrBurns, quite.


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> But I thought you said that she has "Nicked off overseas to get away from the Qld disaster, scampered out of the place like the sneaky lizard she is........?" Why did you *pretend* that she was somehow going to avoid scruitiny over there? Moreover, why did you *pretend* that her trip was organised to clash with the day after election? And, why try to influence your cronies with such nonsense? Why your predilection for mischievous comments?:




She did nick off overseas, far less exposure to the local media there than here, I didn't pretend anything and if there's any nonsense going on it's emanating from the losers corner, your corner, give it a rest you're finished


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> The longer the Labor government makes us wait for the next election the more the rout will be like the Queensland result.



..

Federal Labor have a secret weapon..........Abbott


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> , give it a rest you're finished



Are you dictating?


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Wow - I'm exhausted by all this to-ing and fro-ing about Gillard.  Aren't there just 2 simple truths here?  

First, "THERE WILL BE NO CARBON TAX UNDER THE GOVERNMENT I LEAD".  All politicians break promises to do something, we know that.  but when someone pledges NOT to do something, and then does the exact opposite (and tries to deny it), that just won't wash.

Second, to add insult to injury (whether we the electorate know it or not).  This LIE is hoved down our throat as the work of a reforming government.  Like we're supposed to be pleased and grateful to be taken for fools like that.

The biggest tragedy of all is I grew up in and was from the Labor heartland.  If I'm thinking like that, what are the rest of you going to do with your baseball bats when you get the chance??


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> ..
> 
> Federal Labor have a secret weapon..........Abbott



 Oh dear.   This is just so tired.   If you can't come up with something a little more original, IF, might be good to just go away and meditate on why the Qld election was the wipe out that it was.



StumpyPhantom said:


> Second, to add insult to injury (whether we the electorate know it or not).  This LIE is hoved down our throat as the work of a reforming government.  Like we're supposed to be pleased and grateful to be taken for fools like that.



This is a really good point and something which irritates me no end.
It's as though they think we are so stupid and gullible we will actually believe she was acting in our best interests rather than focus on the truth that she was simply carrying out the orders of The Greens.

The Qld result has shown the electorate is just not that dumb, Ms Gillard.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

You and I are as one here, Julia (is that just your 'stage name'?).  

For all the carrying on about Abbott, which I think most of us can also see, I think most of the electorate realise they only get one chance every three years to say what they think and the number 1 priority has to be teaching Gillard a lesson.

Elections, by their nature, are ones where you cannot 'kill 2 birds with one stone".  If the hung parliament has taught us all one thing, it's that.

So let them bang on all they like about Abbott.  Everyone just needs to picture themselves in the polling booth, when given the chance to rub Gillard's face in it, they will take it.  The whole 'fair go' thing dictates that Abbott should be given the chance as PM before we decide that what we're seeing now is all there is.

Kevin Rudd should just resign and take up a UN post somewhere so we can all get our shiny little pencils ready.


----------



## Julia

Slightly off topic, sorry, but I liked this comment in the Courier Mail.



> Give the Greens their very own patch of the world to subsist on, send them food, and help them police and medicate themselves for 3 years, just for kindness sake, then let 'em live on Gaia's generosity.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> ..
> 
> Federal Labor have a secret weapon..........Abbott





Oh dear - that's what Qld alp thought about Newman...

Do you lefties ever learn from your mistakes?


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> ..
> 
> Federal Labor have a secret weapon..........Abbott




Dear Federal Labor party please listen to this man - he knows what he is talking about.

Parts of the electorate that don't like Tony Abbott

1. Females
2. Male homosexuals (lesbians already covered in 1.)
3. Male Greens (females covered in 1.)
4. Young (but of voting age) males jealous of how Tony looks in budgie smugglers.
5. Male union members (female members covered in 1.)
6. All male non milllioniare's (female members covered in 1.)
7. All male non owners of any sort of business (female members covered in 1.)

This should ensure a landslide win for the Labor party as there are not many left to vote for Tony.

Conclusion  - there is no need to change anything!


----------



## Frank D

IFocus said:


> Wouldn't you look at fixing up the problem at the bottom rather than throw money at the top FCS we are all Australians.
> 
> Nothing like a class war eh Frank.




SMH Editorial (Sunday)...

seems to think tinkering around the 'top' might be a good idea. And I agree.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/editorial/tony-abbotts-nanny-state-20120326-1vum1.html


----------



## Logique

Latest from the satanic Bolt of the Hate Media.
QLD Labor - primary support 26.9%
Federal Labor - latest primary support 28% (-3%)



> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/
> 
> ..The latest Newspoll survey reveals that federal Labor’s primary support has dropped three percentage points to 28 per cent in the past fortnight just one point above the 26.9 per cent figure achieved in its devastating loss in Queensland…


----------



## drsmith

She's obviously still going through the motions, but I now sense a resignation in Julia Gillard's voice.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> She's obviously still going through the motions, but I now sense a resignation in Julia Gillard's voice.




It's about time, we still have a year to wait though and a tough year that will be.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

drsmith said:


> She's obviously still going through the motions, but I now sense a resignation in Julia Gillard's voice.




It's funny how the voice can show "resignation" but it comes from a "stubborn" heart.  It's that stubbornness, which some Gen-Y adviser has wrongly described as male-pattern determination which prevents them seeing the 3 great truths:

1) "There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead", with the benefit of hindsight is a lie, and no amount of re-packaging will change that.

2) We, the great unwashed of the electorate, should be grateful that the Gillard government is a great reforming Labor government (in the Hawke/Keating tradition) that has delivered us the carbon tax.

3) Once that has been imposed on us from 1 July 2012 onwards, we will see the error of our ways and profusely apologise for delivering the appalling polling results Labor has shown, so Gillard will continue to ignore the polls.

ARE THE PEOPLE REALLY AT THE CENTRE OF THE GILLARD GOVERNMENT'S ACTIVITY?  WOULD ANY OTHER PM (JOHN HOWARD INCLUDED) HAVE BEEN THIS STUBBORN?  IS IT POSSIBLE TO DELIVER A GREATER INSULT TO THE ELECTORATE SHORT OF LOSING BADLY ON ELECTION DAY AND BRINGING IN THE ARMY TO KEEP LABOR IN POWER?


----------



## MrBurns

She thought she could convince everyone that paying more tax will save the earth, it hasn't worked.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Yeah!  That was really the 1st greenie generation's justification/mantra.  Way back when we used to trust government!


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> Latest from the satanic Bolt of the Hate Media.




This certainly gives the lie to the the misinformatin the ABC and others spread, rubbishing Abbott because he said that the Carbon Tax was an issue in the Qld State election.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## StumpyPhantom

It's comical.  Most of us powerless electors are just trying to get Julia Gillard to LISTEN, so the Qld State election is as good a means as any.

Gillard comes from this self-obsessed school that says "Just because I think or say something, it must be the fact"

So we're all just left with one way of saying it so she will sit up and take notice.  At the election (just watch her blame it on something or someone else).

The arrogance of it all - so disappointing for what I imagined our first female PM would be like.


----------



## MrBurns

> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has brushed aside a new poll showing support for federal Labor has dropped again - echoing the party's dismal performance in Saturday's Queensland election.
> 
> The Queensland Labor Party was crushed in Saturday's election, winning just 26.9 per cent of the vote and losing 43 seats as the LNP swept to power.
> 
> The latest Newspoll shows federal Labor's primary vote is in similar territory.
> 
> It has dropped three points to 28 per cent since the last poll a fortnight ago, and has fallen seven points in a month.
> 
> That is just short of the all-time Newspoll Labor primary vote low of 26 per cent, which was recorded last September.
> 
> *"I could wake up every morning and worry about the polling or I could wake up every morning thinking about the future of the nation. I choose to do the latter," Ms Gillard told reporters at a nuclear safety summit in Seoul, South Korea*.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-27/gillard-brushes-aside-newspoll-slide/3915066

She seems to misss the point that the best thing for the future of the nation is her departure from politics.


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> She seems to miss the point that the best thing for the future of the nation is her departure from politics.




But then she would have to get a real job.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> But then she would have to get a real job.




PM's Parliamentary pension courtesy of her old pal the Australian tax payer....for a job well done


----------



## Calliope

dutchie said:


> But then she would have to get a real job.




Labor politicians don't have *real* jobs. Working for their union bosses is the only job they know. I guess most of the defeated laborites in Qld have union jobs to fall back on. They know nothing about running a business obviously.


----------



## Ferret

MrBurns said:


> She seems to misss the point that the best thing for the future of the nation is her departure from politics.




Yes, but didn't you say on the Anna Bligh thread



			
				MrBurns said:
			
		

> Someone who is elected by the people should not run away and hide, spitting in their faces, and cause another irritating and expensive by election.


----------



## MrBurns

Ferret said:


> Yes, but didn't you say on the Anna Bligh thread




She wasnt elected, it was a hung parliament and she bludged her way in by lying to Wilkie. Different circumstances.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> She seems to misss the point that the best thing for the future of the nation is her departure from politics.




Not a problem! She will not miss the voters point at the next Federal Election!!
joe


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> Not a problem! She will not miss the voters point at the next Federal Election!!
> joe




Coming in loud and clear, Joe.  It's just such a pity that's come to this - the people having to take the governing of the country into their own hands by bludgeoning their PM once every 3 years.

It's a very blunt tool, and consequently very difficult to undo things like the carbon tax and the minig tax before thousands of jobs are lost and we have to endure financial hardship.

What happened to governing for the people.  Can we find a UN job for Kevin Rudd somewhere so he can resign his seat and bring on the election?


----------



## Calliope

Who do ya trust?

[video]http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2215719444/PM-Julia-Gillard-Who-do-you-trust[/video]


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> Coming in loud and clear, Joe.  It's just such a pity that's come to this - the people having to take the governing of the country into their own hands by bludgeoning their PM once every 3 years.
> 
> It's a very blunt tool, and consequently very difficult to undo things like the carbon tax and the minig tax before thousands of jobs are lost and we have to endure financial hardship.
> 
> What happened to governing for the people.  Can we find a UN job for Kevin Rudd somewhere so he can resign his seat and bring on the election?




So true, pity we have to vent like this when we should all be enjoying the benefits of proficient and competent Govt for all.........sounds idealistic doesn't it but that's what we deserve and what we pay for.


----------



## joea

Well it was just a matter of time before the "worlds greatest treasurer", had to get out his calculator and see how the dollars were adding up.
We will have a little excitement with the local elections, then it will be over to Wayne with his May budget.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ax-take-crumbles/story-fn59nsif-1226312971041

In the meantime he has been to a new optometrist, for another pair of "magic glasses"
to make the figures balance. If they do not, it will be Tony Abbott's fault, or even faulty batteries(in the calculator).

Can somebody contact Wayne please and refer him  to Tech/a, so that he could get second opinion by VSA on the bar graph associated with the above link.
Or am I being premature, because Julia will be back soon and she will be full of answers to do "the right thing for Australia".

joea


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

IFocus said:


> ..
> 
> Federal Labor have a secret weapon..........Abbott




IFocus,

No, I won't disillude you. You would then I take it, wager that the ALP will win the next election?



sails said:


> Oh dear - that's what Qld alp thought about Newman...
> 
> Do you lefties ever learn from your mistakes?




The don't sails, mate. The ALP are so bereft of fresh blood that when some old timeserving fart like Bob Carr comes up with a mantra to reinforce the delusion, they run with it. 



dutchie said:


> Dear Federal Labor party please listen to this man - he knows what he is talking about.
> 
> Parts of the electorate that don't like Tony Abbott
> 
> 1. Females
> 2. Male homosexuals (lesbians already covered in 1.)
> 3. Male Greens (females covered in 1.)
> 4. Young (but of voting age) males jealous of how Tony looks in budgie smugglers.
> 5. Male union members (female members covered in 1.)
> 6. All male non milllioniare's (female members covered in 1.)
> 7. All male non owners of any sort of business (female members covered in 1.)
> 
> This should ensure a landslide win for the Labor party as there are not many left to vote for Tony.
> 
> Conclusion  - there is no need to change anything!




I was down in Sussex St. last week and that is their belief. Then again they never venture much past the Marina or the suburbs, and rarely see regional or rural Australia.

Listening or watching the ABC is not good preparation for assessing the mood of the electorate with a Federal Election about to be called.

Tony has been seen person to person by a significant percentage of the population on his nationwide visits.

gg


----------



## Logique

If we're to have the discussion about the supposed misogyny behind criticism of Julia Gillard, then let's have it in parallel with a full and frank disclosure of the rationale behind 'Abbott, Abbott, Abbott' chanting of Labor-Greens, repeated _ad nauseam_, though never fully explained.

As for me, I think Australian women have powers of critical thinking, analysis and deduction. They got it right on Anna Bligh, and they'll get it right on Julia Gillard.


----------



## IFocus

Garpal Gumnut said:


> IFocus,
> 
> No, I won't disillude you. You would then I take it, wager that the ALP will win the next election?
> 
> 
> gg




No I think they will be comprehensively beaten at the next poll but I would hope their numbers are such that they can mount an effective opposition unlike Queensland which now have all their eggs in one basket.

Thats a basket that comes very much unproven.


Most of the commentary I have read says Campbell Newman wont really make a whole lot of change in Queensland you simply don't have the means but some will at least feel good for a short time.


Look at WA where we have a Liberal / Nat government where living costs are going through the roof to a point where people earning $90K are winging about meeting the bills.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

IFocus said:


> No I think they will be comprehensively beaten at the next poll but I would hope their numbers are such that they can mount an effective opposition unlike Queensland which now have all their eggs in one basket.
> 
> Thats a basket that comes very much unproven.
> 
> 
> Most of the commentary I have read says Campbell Newman wont really make a whole lot of change in Queensland you simply don't have the means but some will at least feel good for a short time.
> 
> 
> Look at WA where we have a Liberal / Nat government where living costs are going through the roof to a point where people earning $90K are winging about meeting the bills.




I'm no expert on WA, so am unable to comment but can I comment on the ALP "wipeout".

In Queensland the state election in 2009 was stuffed up by the conservatives and the ALP got back in. We quickly became further disillusioned with the ALP, their sleazy bits and their selling off assets supposedly safe from sale. 

So at this election we needed to make quite sure that the LNP got in. which we did.

Now federally we have a similar package. A result in 2010 that has the ALP/Green coalition.

You can bet your bottom dollar that everyone in Queensland will vote to ensure the worst result for the ALP and Greens in the next Federal election. 

And given the lead that NSW and Queensland have given, I would not be surprised if the rest of the country votes similarly.  

That is the democratic process.

The ALP will be history for a generation.

gg


----------



## sails

Garpal Gumnut said:


> ...The ALP will be history for a generation.
> 
> gg





IMO, it is entirely possible that Katter's party could be the next federal opposition as they could take votes from disillusioned  labor and greens.


----------



## Julia

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'm no expert on WA, so am unable to comment but can I comment on the ALP "wipeout".
> 
> In Queensland the state election in 2009 was stuffed up by the conservatives and the ALP got back in. We quickly became further disillusioned with the ALP, their sleazy bits and their selling off assets supposedly safe from sale.
> 
> So at this election we needed to make quite sure that the LNP got in. which we did.
> 
> Now federally we have a similar package. A result in 2010 that has the ALP/Green coalition.
> 
> You can bet your bottom dollar that everyone in Queensland will vote to ensure the worst result for the ALP and Greens in the next Federal election.
> 
> And given the lead that NSW and Queensland have given, I would not be surprised if the rest of the country votes similarly.
> 
> That is the democratic process.
> 
> The ALP will be history for a generation.
> 
> gg



I hope so.   
On Peter Costello and his appointment to audit for the Qld government, I see today he has also come out and roundly criticised Wayne Swan's determination to see a budget surplus, mocking Swan in the way he used to.

Can we maybe hope that he has been sitting back, watching the national situation, and is now judging the time to be right to start making a political come back?
It's a bit over a year to the Federal election.   This would be about right for him to continue sniping from the sidelines.  Then the pollsters start once again asking the electorate "who would you want as Prime Minister:  Gillard, Abbott, Costello?"

I reckon there would be a big part of the electorate who would plump for Costello:
Tony Abbott is unlikely to ever become really popular, so wouldn't the Libs be up for having another go at persuading Mr Costello to return as Leader?

Campbell Newman has demonstrated that one can become leader from outside of the parliament.

Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Look at WA where we have a Liberal / Nat government where living costs are going through the roof to a point where people earning $90K are winging about meeting the bills.



Are they the same bills that Labor kept artifically low while in office, such as electricity ?

Also, who divided Western Power into 4 or 5 different whatevers with all the administrative cost of creating that many bureaucracies from what was originally one ?

Actualy IF, I feel sorry for you.

How are you going to watch the federal ALP ship slowly sink over the next year or so and keep that bottom lip up ?


----------



## Ferret

Julia said:


> Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part.




I'll dream along with you, Julia.

As far as Swan goes, I actually feel some pity for him over this.  He was probably stupid to ever promise the surplus, but if he backed away from it now he would be crucified by the opposition.  Politics - bah!!!


----------



## joea

Ferret said:


> As far as Swan goes, I actually feel some pity for him over this.  He was probably stupid to ever promise the surplus, but if he backed away from it now he would be crucified by the opposition.  Politics - bah!!!




I hear on the grape vine that Labor have popped down to Bunnings and purchased a tonne of "Damp Rid" to help prevent soaking up the carpets and window curtains, for Wayne Swan's media speeches on the lead up to, and the Budget disclosures.

joea


----------



## rumpole

Ferret said:


> As far as Swan goes, I actually feel some pity for him over this.  He was probably stupid to ever promise the surplus, but if he backed away from it now he would be crucified by the opposition.  Politics - bah!!!




It was Costello that stuck us with the multi billion dollar black hole called the baby bonus. That's the first thing Swan should get rid of.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Are they the same bills that Labor kept artifically low while in office, such as electricity ?
> 
> Also, who divided Western Power into 4 or 5 different whatevers with all the administrative cost of creating that many bureaucracies from what was originally one ?
> 
> Actualy IF, I feel sorry for you.
> 
> How are you going to watch the federal ALP ship slowly sink over the next year or so and keep that bottom lip up ?




Actually it was the Liberals that run down our infrastructure using the utilities as a cash registrar to prop up their budgets, both sides have blown it, similar story around Australia still doesn't take away the fact that its under Barnett that we have run away price rises with the greatest boom every seen in the state.

All that and I still cannot go and watch the WCE at a descent stadium.

You lot will end up with Abbott now thats some thing to be sorry about.

And as for Costello I have changed my mind about his greatness, his articles that he writes continue to be some of the most shallow trash ever Julie Bishop can string together better pieces.

Keating was right Costello and Howard were just a couple of mugs that got lucky


----------



## drsmith

Paul Keating is now prepared to publically aknowledge the writing on the wall. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ith-middle-class/story-fn59niix-1226313619206

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...gs-timely-advice/story-e6frg71x-1226314878609


----------



## sails

rumpole said:


> It was Costello that stuck us with the multi billion dollar black hole called the baby bonus. That's the first thing Swan should get rid of.





And why hasn't he?  They are trying to tax the hell out of this country with a carbon tax and yet pay women for unlimited babies?  

If labor really believe that the environment is an issue, over population is something that needs to be addressed, imo.  That's if they really do have any concerns about the environment.  Any concern labor seem to have is about how to steal more money from workers, imo.

And, with unlimited baby bonuses, who is to say that boat arrivals are not breeding like rabbits?  All at our expense?  And yet they are supposedly fleeing from countries where they are already overcrowded?  And then they want to bring the very laws they have supposedly fled from to Australia?  And labor keeps supporting all this?

I do think baby bonuses should be restricted or at least given on a prorata basis and maybe cutting out entirely by baby number three.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> Paul Keating is now prepared to publically aknowledge the writing on the wall.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ith-middle-class/story-fn59niix-1226313619206
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...gs-timely-advice/story-e6frg71x-1226314878609





And from the *ABC* *Labor's seven deadly sins*

and this from the Australian - yep, Bill Hayden:



> BILL Hayden was the last man standing when Labor crashed in Queensland at the 1975 federal election. Now the former ALP leader and governor-general has declared that Australia's oldest political party may have "had its time".
> 
> The message was rammed home to him this week when he climbed into a taxi and the driver spat out his disgust with the ALP over its shattering defeat at last Saturday's state election.




Read more if registered: *Hayden fears Labor's time has passed*


----------



## Logique

About right I reckon. We all know it. Labor has become captive of an urban elite, union secretaries and back office careerists. 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...pm-julia-gillard/story-fn7q4q9f-1226315932327
*Mark Latham's lament on 'liar' PM Julia Gillard *by: Staff Writer From: The Daily Telegraph April 02, 2012 



> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...pm-julia-gillard/story-fn7q4q9f-1226315932327
> LABOR can't go to an election with Julia Gillard as leader and needs to install a "non-liar" into the post, former leader Mark Latham said yesterday.
> Raising talk of leadership change only weeks after Ms Gillard beat a challenge from Kevin Rudd, Mr Latham believes there is no way the party would stick with Ms Gillard.
> 
> "Well, the only option for the Labor Party is to bring in a non-liar as prime minister," he told Sky TV's Australian Agenda. "And *inevitably, as certain as night follows day, they will change leaders before the next election*.
> 
> "*They can't possibly go to the next poll with Gillard*. I mean, there's no way of unscrambling the egg, having broken an important election promise like this."
> 
> Mr Latham said that aside from structural problems within the ALP, which led to the Queensland election loss, the party needed to heed lessons about the broken carbon tax promise: "There is absolutely no margin for lying."


----------



## rumpole

> "They can't possibly go to the next poll with Gillard. I mean, there's no way of unscrambling the egg, having broken an important election promise like this."




Yes, it's probably their only hope to change leaders, if the polls this time next year are just as bad.

The problem is to find a credible alternative. I don't believe it's Rudd, despite his supposed electoral popularity, he has too much baggage.

Smith or Swan are the only two I can see who have some credibility. If Swan brings the budget into surplus (which is a dubious goal economically anyway), he will improve his position, even though his charisma factor is non existent. That didn't stop Howard though.

He can always say he tried to talk Julia out of the carbon tax.


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> Yes, it's probably their only hope to change leaders, if the polls this time next year are just as bad.
> 
> The problem is to find a credible alternative. I don't believe it's Rudd, despite his supposed electoral popularity, he has too much baggage.
> 
> Smith or Swan are the only two I can see who have some credibility. If Swan brings the budget into surplus (which is a dubious goal economically anyway), he will improve his position, even though his charisma factor is non existent. That didn't stop Howard though.
> 
> He can always say he tried to talk Julia out of the carbon tax.




Swans a goose, no pun intended, and Smith is weak.

There's actualy no one on the front bench that's suitable.

Their only hope is to bring Rudd back at the last minute to capture the moment before people realise they didnt like him either.


----------



## Logique

I'd put Bill Shorten in tomorrow. Not because I'm a fan, but because he couldn't do any worse, and he might just grow into the job and win some people over. He needs enough time to do that.  

The QLD election must have snuffed out any remaining hope that voters will forgive and forget with the incumbent PM.


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> I'd put Bill Shorten in tomorrow. .




Mummy's boy:bad:


----------



## rumpole

Logique said:


> I'd put Bill Shorten in tomorrow. Not because I'm a fan, but because he couldn't do any worse, and he might just grow into the job and win some people over. He needs enough time to do that.
> 
> The QLD election must have snuffed out any remaining hope that voters will forgive and forget with the incumbent PM.




Shorten hasn't impressed me. He appears to be someone with something to say but not knowing how to say it. He appears to be reading off a script card on most occasions.


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> Shorten hasn't impressed me. He appears to be someone with something to say but not knowing how to say it. He appears to be reading off a script card on most occasions.



I agree.  I can't understand why he's so often touted as leadership material.
Stephen Smith and Chris Bowen are the only two possibilities imo, but agree that Smith seems a bit lacking in grit.

Swan???   Surely not!   He has zilch in the way of presence, gabbles thoughtless nonsense and lacks confidence.


----------



## rumpole

> Swan??? Surely not! He has zilch in the way of presence, gabbles thoughtless nonsense and lacks confidence.




But he IS the World's Best Treasurer !

As such he has some credibility. More than Hockey anyway with his $70 billion black hole.


----------



## Logique

In the end it's about policies. It's not about the PM's bodyshape, dress sense or marital status. If only the policies would change, carbon tax, mining tax, boats and many others, I would welcome PM Gillard with open arms.

But it will be Bill Shorten. 

Now or later. Over to you parliamentary Labor Party and the ACTU. In Government or in Opposition, it's your choice. You cannot win with this PM and you know it.


----------



## Klogg

rumpole said:


> But he IS the World's Best Treasurer !
> 
> As such he has some credibility. More than Hockey anyway with his $70 billion black hole.




...he won that award Bradbury style.


----------



## drsmith

Another day, more of the same. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-03/auditor-general-releases-ausnet-report/3929404

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-03/thomson/3930356?WT.svl=news0

Perhaps the only positive of Labor is that both stories are on the one day.

On the ABC, the discussion has turned to something between electoral wilderness for a period and total demise.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2012/04/the-cycles-of-party-politics.html

The chart of lower house seats shows the scale of Labor's fall. It's a freefall much more severe than anything seen since 1970 and has reached levels post Whitlam with Labor in SA and federally yet to fall.


----------



## Calliope

Craig Thomson says he is innocent. Julia Gillard says she has full confidence in Craig Thomson. They obviously know something about the workings of the FWA than we don't.


----------



## MrBurns

Isn't it great to know that our taxes are paying Craig Thompson to slimy around ,telling lies cheating and being totally uselss first in the Union now at our expense, what a creep and what a piece of work Gillard is to support him, I'm disgusted really.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Isn't it great to know that our taxes are paying Craig Thompson to slimy around ,telling lies cheating and being totally uselss first in the Union now at our expense, what a creep and what a piece of work Gillard is to support him, I'm disgusted really.



The May budget will be interesting in that it will be drafted in the context that they now realise they are ****ed.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The May budget will be interesting in that it will be drafted in the context that they now realise they are ****ed.




I think the budget will be the last gasp, these idiots are hell bent on delivering a surplus so they wont get canned but the cuts they have to make to do it will be worse.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I think the budget will be the last gasp, these idiots are hell bent on delivering a surplus so they wont get canned but the cuts they have to make to do it will be worse.



I suspect it will be a class warfare idiological bender.

It will be their last chance to do it for a while.

The following budget will be pre-election.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Isn't it great to know that our taxes are paying Craig Thompson to slimy around ,telling lies cheating and being totally uselss first in the Union now at our expense, what a creep and what a piece of work Gillard is to support him, I'm disgusted really.



+1.  She is just further diminishing her credibility by supporting this person.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> +1.  She is just further diminishing her credibility by supporting this person.



Perhaps this fool should be true to his word and hold Labor to account over Craig Thompson,

http://www.skynews.com.au/national/article.aspx?id=735809&vId=

I can't see it myself.


----------



## bunyip

Will Gillard lead the ALP to the next election?

They dumped Rudd prior to the last election when it became clear that he’d lead them over a cliff. Surely they’ll dump Gillard for the same reason –  if they try someone else they might just have a chance, albeit a very slim one, of pulling off a victory. 
Personally I hope they stick with the lying red-haired %&#@!*


----------



## drsmith

Are they jellybeans in front of Wayne Swan ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-04/treasures-holds-meeting-with-state-treasurers/3932730

The cup lebelled surplus must be broken.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> Are they jellybeans in front of Wayne Swan ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-04/treasures-holds-meeting-with-state-treasurers/3932730
> 
> The cup lebelled surplus must be broken.




Maybe he needs the beans to count?


----------



## rumpole

Why is there a hole in the table ? Must be inconvenient if you want to slide something across it.


----------



## sails

rumpole said:


> Why is there a hole in the table ? Must be inconvenient if you want to slide something across it.




There is a little bridge...lol

But why are you changing the subject from Swan needing bean counters?...


----------



## drsmith

If that hole represents that chasm of budget deficit, the 2012/13 surplus has most likely allready fallen off the bridge.


----------



## rumpole

sails said:


> There is a little bridge...lol
> 
> But why are you changing the subject from Swan needing bean counters?...




I guess it's possible he's an insulin dependent diabetic and he needs them if his sugar level goes too low.


----------



## noco

So the Gillard Government are going to cut the Climate Change staff from 900 to 600.

I for one would like to know what the roll of 900 people would be doing let alone 600.

They should close the bloody lot down altogether now the Gillard Government has it's $23 carbon tax (ops, sorry carbon price) through.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ublic-service/comments-e6freooo-1226318234413


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Are they jellybeans in front of Wayne Swan ?



I think they look like those jelly snakes.
Not inappropriate, perhaps.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> I think they look like those jelly snakes.
> Not inappropriate, perhaps.



 .


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> So the Gillard Government are going to cut the Climate Change staff from 900 to 600.
> I for one would like to know what the roll of 900 people would be doing let alone 600.
> They should close the bloody lot down altogether now the Gillard Government has it's $23 carbon tax (ops, sorry carbon price) through.
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ublic-service/comments-e6freooo-1226318234413



 600 of them, they'd be rattling around in the building. It's all so Yes Minister isn't it. But Sir Humphrey, there are _no patients_!


----------



## MrBurns

Here we go again, It's really hard not to let fly with the expletives but this woman is the absolute pits and has to go ASAP....the damage caused to this economy will be terminal by the time she's finished and if I were Abbott I'd be scared witless and the job ahead of him.



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard pays out lump sum cash bonuses for families as carbon tax compo
> 
> CASH bonuses for families of up to $100 per child and $250 for pensioners will be deposited in voters' bank accounts within weeks as the Gillard government fights a public backlash over the carbon tax.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...carbon-tax-compo/story-e6freuy9-1226321169512


----------



## moXJO

Lol What happened with Larry Hannigan and his charge against Gillard with Treason?


----------



## moXJO

lol 


> Adelaide businessman Graham Daniels, has charged the Victorian Director of Public Prosecutions Jeremy Rapke QC, with perverting the course of justice after the Office of Public Prosecutions dismissed Mr Daniels’ charge against Prime Minister Julia Gillard under provisions of the Crimes Act relating to taking an unlawful oath to commit treason.
> On July 29th, 2010, in the Melbourne Magistrates’ Court, Mr Daniels filed a charge against Ms Gillard of breaching Section 316 (2)(a)(vii) of the Crimes Act 1958 (Vic) during the month of June 2010.





> Mr Daniels, of Adelaide, is an international business consultant and part owner with his father Peter J. Daniels, of Australia’s only bullion bank.
> The Victorian Office of Public Prosecutions wrote to Mr Daniels on July 30, informing him that the DPP had taken over the conduct of the proceedings and withdrawn them.
> The treason-related charge against Ms Gillard was not the first. On January 29th, 2007, Victorian farmer Brian Shaw charged Ms Gillard, then his local Federal Member, of concealing an alleged act of treason by the Parliament of Western Australia.
> Mr Shaw’s allegations of treason against the WA Parliament were subsequently dismissed by the WA Supreme Court and Mr Shaw declared a vexatious litigant. Mr Shaw denies he is a vexatious litigant and continues to hold public meetings across Australia alleging subversion of the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution.
> Numerous other public figures have been charged in the past few years by Mr Shaw for alleged treasonous acts against the Commonwealth of Australia including misprision of treason and being attainted of treason, that is, acts associated with concealing treason.





> Jeremy Rapke, QC, Director of Public Prosecutions Victoria, threw out Mr Daniels’ action, so Mr Daniels has decided to charge Mr Rapke.
> The charge is: The accused at the Melbourne Magistrates Court on 30 July 2010 did use unlawful authority to take over and supress an indictable offence filed against Julia Gillard (The Accused) by Graham Daniels (The Informant).
> The unlawful authority occurs in the fact that the purported power came from the Public Prosecutions Act 1994 Victoria, an Act that has removed Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second from such Act at Section 51.3 of such Act.
> By such unlawful conduct the accused did attempt to pervert the Course of Justice.


----------



## dutchie

There has been a long frustrating call by the majority of Australians to have an election so that we can kick out this pathetic government.

Unfortunately it would appear that this will not happen for another 18 months or so.

So many people ask in frustration what can we do.

The only recourse the electorate has is to turn off and ignore this Labor government.

Every time Labor appears to distribute more spin - *Turn it off* (change channels instantly)

Any meetings etc organised by Labor - don't go.

Any media or articles supporting this rabble - ignore them and don't read/buy it.

Sometimes a difficult task indeed, but that's all you have available to protest (_before_ the election).

Support people who try to bring this rabble to task!

That's what I will be doing from now on.


----------



## MrBurns

I think if someone organised a march it would get a lot of support.
One in each capital city.
Just passive protest.

Though I guess the silent majority arent the march participating type, ....but it's getting close to that now I reckon.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Here we go again, It's really hard not to let fly with the expletives but this woman is the absolute pits and has to go ASAP....the damage caused to this economy will be terminal by the time she's finished and if I were Abbott I'd be scared witless and the job ahead of him.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...carbon-tax-compo/story-e6freuy9-1226321169512



 That Daily Telegraph article continues to perpetuate the myth that people will be better off via the 'tripling of the taxfree threshold'.  They never mention that at the same time tax offsets for low income people will be abolished and there is ultimately only a difference of a bit over $1000.  The journalists must be ignorant, lazy or both.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> That Daily Telegraph article continues to perpetuate the myth that people will be better off via the 'tripling of the taxfree threshold'.  They never mention that at the same time tax offsets for low income people will be abolished and there is ultimately only a difference of a bit over $1000.  The journalists must be ignorant, lazy or both.



Not to mention bracket creep over the next decade... great way to get the proles on board who only care about the "then and now!", however.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> That Daily Telegraph article continues to perpetuate the myth that people will be better off via the 'tripling of the taxfree threshold'.  They never mention that at the same time tax offsets for low income people will be abolished and there is ultimately only a difference of a bit over $1000.  The journalists must be ignorant, lazy or both.




This handout is to bribe people to like them again, it's another useless waste of money as those who get it will just spend it as usual and still complain when prices go up.

It's not even on the ABC web site yet.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> This handout is to bribe people to like them again




But my point is that the so called tripling of the tax rate (part of the handout) just isn't what it's touted to be and that the media are doing an abysmal job of pointing this out.
I reckon 90% of the population actually believe their taxable income will be tripled when it actually will not.

I doubt anything will make the electorate change their minds about the government now.
Just as in Queensland, people have made up their minds and have largely stopped listening, so lacking is the government's credibility.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Julia said:


> But my point is that the so called tripling of the tax rate (part of the handout) just isn't what it's touted to be and that the media are doing an abysmal job of pointing this out.
> I reckon 90% of the population actually believe their taxable income will be tripled when it actually will not.
> 
> I doubt anything will make the electorate change their minds about the government now.
> Just as in Queensland, people have made up their minds and have largely stopped listening, so lacking is the government's credibility.




It is basically an illegitimate government.

Even anything good they do will be tainted by their poor governance, atrocious management, lies and obstinacy in the face of criminality. 

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It is basically an illegitimate government.
> gg




The accidental Prime Minister.


----------



## rumpole

> That Daily Telegraph article continues to perpetuate the myth that people will be better off via the 'tripling of the taxfree threshold'. They never mention that at the same time tax offsets for low income people will be abolished and there is ultimately only a difference of a bit over $1000. The journalists must be ignorant, lazy or both.




I suppose this will fall on deaf ears, but its more efficient to cut the tax free thresholds than take money away from people then give it back again in 'offsets'.

I would have thought that measure would appeal to the Libbie Luvvies because it gives everyone money in the hand rather than reimbursing only those who the government either feels needs it more or think are more likely to vote for them; ie lower paid workers.

But of course the blinkered ones here can't see that.


And certainly close down the whole Dept. of Climate Change. Their job is done and we don't need them any more.


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> But of course the blinkered ones here can't see that.




It's more a case of whatever they do they stuff up so wait for this it'll be huge even by Labor stuff up standards.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

rumpole said:


> I suppose this will fall on deaf ears, but its more efficient to cut the tax free thresholds than take money away from people then give it back again in 'offsets'.
> 
> I would have thought that measure would appeal to the Libbie Luvvies because it gives everyone money in the hand rather than reimbursing only those who the government either feels needs it more or think are more likely to vote for them; ie lower paid workers.
> 
> But of course the blinkered ones here can't see that.
> 
> 
> And certainly close down the whole Dept. of Climate Change. Their job is done and we don't need them any more.




Not a bad post Horace,

Blink not mate, blink not.

Lest you be a blinker.

gg


----------



## drsmith

rumpole said:


> I would have thought that measure would appeal to the Libbie Luvvies because it gives everyone money in the hand rather than reimbursing only those who the government either feels needs it more or think are more likely to vote for them; ie lower paid workers.



The problem is that money (and more) is being taken away again in the form of a carbon tax.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

drsmith said:


> The problem is that money (and more) is being taken away again in the form of a carbon tax.




Doc, just remember that Horace gets much of his opinion from the ABC.

Do not confront, him , but rather encourage him to partake of SBS and Skynews, as well as watching the ABC.

I have met many like him, who have been thankful for the liberation.

gg


----------



## rumpole

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Doc, just remember that Horace gets much of his opinion from the ABC.
> 
> Do not confront, him , but rather encourage him to partake of SBS and Skynews, as well as watching the ABC.
> 
> I have met many like him, who have been thankful for the liberation.
> 
> gg




You may be right gg. What with the IPA and Peter Reith appearing every five minutes, not to mention Piers Ackerman, the ABC is too far Right for me these days


----------



## drsmith

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Do not confront, him , but rather encourage him to partake of SBS and Skynews, as well as watching the ABC.



And Bolt.


----------



## noco

It took the communist dominated unions 15 - 20 years to almost send this country into economical chaos. 

This Rudd/Gillard/ Brown Green Sociaist left wing governemnt will do it in less than 6 years if allowed to continue.

Can anyone believe Gillard is handing our cheques of $250 per pensioner and $100 per child before the carbon dioxide tax (whoops "CARBON PRICE") comes into force July 1Can somebody tell me how many pensioners and kids currently live in Australia?

There you go 'kiddies', I told you I would  give you some lollies to take away the sour taste in your mouths.

No need to worry, we will just borrow another $120,000,000 per day to pay for it.

Geez Swanie, how will that affect the budget for 2012/2013.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...if_they_gave_you_free_cash_would_you_forgive/


----------



## drsmith

Cash handouts from Labor will help them as much as tax cuts and increased middle class welfare helped John Howard in 2007.

The electorate has allready decided.


----------



## MrBurns

Question time should be intereresting, Gillard would be wise not to show up.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Question time should be intereresting, Gillard would be wise not to show up.



They'll have other things to talk about..........

The budget.

The carbon tax.

The whole party would be wise not to show up and leave the defence of the fort to Andrew Wilkie.


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> I suppose this will fall on deaf ears, but its more efficient to cut the tax free thresholds than take money away from people then give it back again in 'offsets'.



I agree.  My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that spin is prevailing with the widespread belief, promoted shamelessly by the government and assisted by the lazy media, that people will actually be able to earn more without those earnings being taxed.  It simply is not so.
All I expect (and what a hopeless expectation) is that the policy should be transparent and honestly represented to the electorate.

I shall not be holding my breath.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> They'll have other things to talk about..........
> 
> The budget.
> 
> The carbon tax.
> 
> The whole party would be wise not to show up and leave the defence of the fort to Andrew Wilkie.




Would the Prime Minster please re state her support for Craig Thompson.

Would the Prime Minister explain why she says Fair Work Australia is to be respected when the ACTU have dissociateded themselves from it.

Would the Prime Mimister please tell taxpayers why she intends to fill bank accounts with handouts when the carbon Tax doesnt come ito effect untll July.

Would the Prime Minister explein how she has the hide to walk into this house at all.


----------



## drsmith

Another very long week coming up for the PM me thinks.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> I shall not be holding my breath.



Hold your breath at 5:59pm on election day.

That way, you will only have to hold it long enough to cure hiccups.


----------



## rumpole

Julia said:


> I agree.  My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that spin is prevailing with the widespread belief, promoted shamelessly by the government and assisted by the lazy media, that people will actually be able to earn more without those earnings being taxed.  It simply is not so.
> All I expect (and what a hopeless expectation) is that the policy should be transparent and honestly represented to the electorate.
> 
> I shall not be holding my breath.




I've heard zilch from the Opposition on this matter, so they are obviously falling down on the job as well, if the compensation package is as bad as you say.


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> Would the Prime Minister explain why she says Fair Work Australia is to be respected when the ACTU have dissociateded themselves from it.




WRONG of course, they suspended the HSU, but she does say FWA is the independant body etc and we all know different so the question should be.

"Would the Prime Minister explain why she says Fair Work Australia is to be respected as independant when they took 3 years to produce a report that isn't even in a form of a brief of evidence that the DPP can act on."


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> I've heard zilch from the Opposition on this matter, so they are obviously falling down on the job as well, if the compensation package is as bad as you say.



Yes, indeed they are missing the obvious opportunity.  They have made some references to it, but not enough.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Yes, indeed they are missing the obvious opportunity.  They have made some references to it, but not enough.



Any noises the Coalition makes I suspect would be drowned out by the explosions that are currently emanating from within what's left of the house of Labor.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Any noises the Coalition makes I suspect would be drowned out by the explosions that are currently emanating from within what's left of the house of Labor.




Yes Dr. I agree.

It is always the case with this Green/Labor party government, if you do not agree with them or you criticize them, "ABBOTT! ABBOTT!  ABBOTT! IS A SCAREMONGER.

The emphasis is always on ABBOTT.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Any noises the Coalition makes I suspect would be drowned out by the explosions that are currently emanating from within what's left of the house of Labor.



Sure, and the Coalition has so many points about the government which attract criticism. Probably hard to continuously cover them all.


----------



## Calliope

All Abbott has to do is follow Keating's philippic to Hewson:



> The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm out of this load of rubbish over a number of months. There will be no easy execution for you. You have perpetrated one of the great mischiefs on the Australian public with this thing, trying to rip away our social wage, trying to rip away the Australian values which we built in our society for over a century



.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

noco said:


> Can anyone believe Gillard is handing our cheques of $250 per pensioner and $100 per child before the carbon dioxide tax (whoops "CARBON PRICE") comes into force July 1Can somebody tell me how many pensioners and kids currently live in Australia?
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...if_they_gave_you_free_cash_would_you_forgive/




This is a one-off handout for a systemic impost or tax that will be permanently imposed on us, and one which is likely to increase over time.

Will anyone on election day (including those who have received this or other cash) be silly enough to vote for the continued imposition of this tax?

Is anyone in the Labor Party really thinking here?  And the electorate will react even more savagely if the faceless men again decide to put someone other than the PM who this on us to the vote on election day.


----------



## Julia

I put this up on another thread.  Doubt that it's widely known.

Btw, I read somewhere recently that the much vaunted compensation for the carbon tax all ceases when the switch occurs to an ETS.   Hopefully they won't still be attempting to run the country by then, but it's certainly a point that they have avoided making clear


----------



## noco

StumpyPhantom said:


> This is a one-off handout for a systemic impost or tax that will be permanently imposed on us, and one which is likely to increase over time.
> 
> Will anyone on election day (including those who have received this or other cash) be silly enough to vote for the continued imposition of this tax?
> 
> Is anyone in the Labor Party really thinking here?  And the electorate will react even more savagely if the faceless men again decide to put someone other than the PM who this on us to the vote on election day.



Could this be the big announcement GG posted yesterday.

If there is a high court challange by the four LNP states and they win, will the pensioners have to hand back thier $250 and the kids their $100?

Gillard, if she isn't already the laughing stock of the century, will be if the $23 tonne carbon tax is thrown out by the high court of Australia.
http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/tax_in_trouble/


----------



## sails

noco said:


> Could this be the big announcement GG posted yesterday.
> 
> If there is a high court challange by the four LNP states and they win, will the pensioners have to hand back thier $250 and the kids their $100?
> 
> Gillard, if she isn't already the laughing stock of the century, will be if the $23 tonne carbon tax is thrown out by the high court of Australia.
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/tax_in_trouble/





It wouldn't surprise me if the carbon tax is thrown out by the high court.  Gillard's legal people didn't get it right over Malaysia so it makes you wonder if they have any idea what is constitutional and what is not.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

sails said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if the carbon tax is thrown out by the high court.  Gillard's legal people didn't get it right over Malaysia so it makes you wonder if they have any idea what is constitutional and what is not.




Yeah!!  Hear Hear - take this from someone with inside knowledge.  The legal people are never given the chance to get it right.  The scheme is dreamt up in a Minister's office (or worse still by a media adviser whose greatest claim to fame is txting messages to Aboriginal activists to say Tony Abbott is across the park at the Lobby Restaurant).

Then, as an afterthought, a lawyer is asked to rubber-stamp the deal to give it a whiff of legitimacy because this is the Canberra glass-house style, which is even worse when combined with an ivory-tower politician.

This notion that because we've got legal 'cover' everything will be fine was how they got into the Malaysia Solution mess.

So take it from me, no lawyers (at least none worth their salt with practising certificates) have been in on this Carbon Tax.  Just the Greens (did anyone hear about Bob Brown's "Buzz Lightyear" moment in the Hobart Town Hall a week or so ago?

So cuckoo-cloud land comes up against the 7 wise monkeys of the High Court.  No contest.  Gillard's tears will be on show again.  Will she attack the Chief Justice like she did last time?  That's strange - she chose not to attack Fair Work Australia because it was "independent".  But she didn't hold back on the Chief Justice of Australia.  Oh that's right - he's not "independent" because it was the Labor Party that chose him and he should have toed the party line.

Where do these people come from?  More importantly, where do they belong?  Some tyrannical regime in deepest darkest Africa wouldn't do half the things this crowd has done.  The only reason they aren't contemplating calling in the Army when they lose the election is that Stephen Smith has done such a good hatchet job on them recently.

Phew!  There - I feel better now.  As the commercial goes.


----------



## drsmith

COAG might be a feisty affair. 

Campbell Newman is beating the battle drums.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3474468.htm


----------



## sails

Great post, Stumpy...

Your "insider" theory sounds about right, imo...


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> Great post, Stumpy...
> 
> Your "insider" theory sounds about right, imo...




+1


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Could this be the big announcement GG posted yesterday.
> 
> [/url]




No. I do not think so.
I think GG is referring to some thing that may change the state of the nation.
He is certainly keeping it close to his chest.
joea


----------



## dutchie

The Governments silence, on the HSU scandal, the arrival of more boats and the demands being made by these illegals here and Indonesia, the economy (upcoming budget), interest rates etc, in fact on anything, is deafening.

They are scared sh#tless!


----------



## Eager

sails said:


> Gillard's legal people didn't get it right over Malaysia so it makes you wonder if they have any idea what is constitutional and what is not.



Didn't Abbott back the Malaysia solution until it hit that legal hurdle?


----------



## sails

Eager said:


> Didn't Abbott back the Malaysia solution until it hit that legal hurdle?




I can't remember, but Abbott can hardly be blamed for Gillard refusing to re-instate the Pacific Solution which WORKED.

If Gillard thinks the majority of Aussie voters will fall for her little "blame Abbott" stunt, she is terribly disillusioned, imo.

Oh, and Gillard is the PM and Malaysia was HER idea - it was her responsibility to ensure it was legal.  Can't blame Abbott for that one as well...


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> Didn't Abbott back the Malaysia solution until it hit that legal hurdle?



 No, absolutely not.  At no stage did he support it.  He cited Malaysia's woeful record on human rights and referred back to Nauru being under Australia's control.
Therefore asylum seekers sent to Nauru we could guarantee would receive human treatment, in contrast to the potential for them being whipped and god knows what else in Malaysia.  He further cited the medical care made available on Nauru which is in contrast to no medical assistance or housing in Malaysia, where asylum seekers apparently often drift into crime in order to survive.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Julia said:


> No, absolutely not.  At no stage did he support it.  He cited Malaysia's woeful record on human rights and referred back to Nauru being under Australia's control.
> Therefore asylum seekers sent to Nauru we could guarantee would receive human treatment, in contrast to the potential for them being whipped and god knows what else in Malaysia.  He further cited the medical care made available on Nauru which is in contrast to no medical assistance or housing in Malaysia, where asylum seekers apparently often drift into crime in order to survive.




Exactly right - grea memory Julia.  It was a delicious irony to see the conservative side of politics exhibiting compassion and arguing against Labor's extreme solution, mocked up as humanity in not wanting to see people drown.

Malaysia is laughing all the way to the bank - their 4000 refugees have started arriving on our shores, we've handed over cold hard cash ($300m promised), and not a single soul has gone in the other direction (which I think is a good thing).


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> The Governments silence,
> 
> They are scared sh#tless!




That statement has hit target. Joe Hockey cannot even have a cup of coffee with somebody without them being all over it!!

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...n-secret-meeting/story-e6freoof-1226324387428
joea


----------



## sails

joea said:


> That statement has hit target. Joe Hockey cannot even have a cup of coffee with somebody without them being all over it!!
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...n-secret-meeting/story-e6freoof-1226324387428
> joea




Joea - This sentence in from comments in following the article says it all, imo:



> *Perhaps if Labor spent a little more time learning from successful businessmen they wouldn't be on the brink of total extinction*.




Labor just refuse to get it, imo.  Bligh threw so much dirt and Newman and his family that completely back fired on her.  And yet labor keep chasing the mice in the china shop when the real problem is their own clumsy elephant.

Thankfully, Aussie voters are waking up to these tactics and are probably not listening any more.  Clearly, these sort of childish attacks on the coalition will only anger the electorate further.

I think we would all prefer labor got on with GOOD government and started respecting and representing the people who pay their salaries and who put them there to represent them.

But, it seems labor can only lunge from one disaster to the next.  It makes their taunts against the coalition look very, very pitiful...


----------



## Calliope

Julia said;

"Try being me. Try being an atheist, childless, *single* woman as prime minister."

I guess Tim is just a live-in hairdresser.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Julia said;
> 
> "Try being me. Try being an atheist, childless, *single* woman as prime minister."
> 
> I guess Tim is just a live-in hairdresser.


----------



## Logique

A Please Explain might be coming from Tim, along the lines of _Julia, I think we need to talk._


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Julia said;
> 
> "Try being me. Try being an atheist, childless, *single* woman as prime minister."
> 
> I guess Tim is just a live-in hairdresser.




And don't forget the affair she had with a married man namely Dr.Criag Emmerson for some 2 years.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> A Please Explain might be coming from Tim, along the lines of _Julia, I think we need to talk._




He seems to have gone very quiet since he walked back to the lodge leaving Obama and Julia together at a function.

I don't get to watch TV all the time but haven't seen him since then. It seemed that neither Tim nor Michelle were overly impressed with certain flirtatious behaviours. And who could blame them?


----------



## StumpyPhantom

sails said:


> Labor just refuse to get it, imo.




This is the ABSOLUTE truth.  The do refuse, but the more interesting question is WHY?

Having grown up in Labor heartland and now completely disenchanted, I wonder if this theory resonates with anyone out there?

Labor's long stint in opposition, during which time it cannibalised itself, combined with the Kevin07 substance-less landslide win against Howard, was like the lot of them getting addicted on heroin.  No work or substance required, just spin the media cycle and you'll get there.

Especially given those 11 years in the wilderness, they really needed to get their 'generational change' right from when Keating was PM in order to preserve their legacy and build a new story.

The 2 real Labor statesmen since Rudd became PM have been marginalised.  John Faulkner continues to try, speaking his mind behind closed doors but he is ignored.  Lindsay Tanner gracefuly exited on the day Rudd got knifed without causing a ripple.

Of the other remnants of the Keating years, Crean was damaged goods and is too bitter to lead from the front. Swan's a joke, Carr has been trashed.  

So this current lot meander through and look like they refuse to get it.  They do refuse, but they have no moral compass when their brains are so tuned to the media cycle that the only mantra they can remember is Richo's half-serious "Whatever it takes"

Back to the drawing board, guys - and drop the unions before you even think about getting back.


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> No, absolutely not.  At no stage did he support it.  He cited Malaysia's woeful record on human rights and referred back to Nauru being under Australia's control.
> Therefore asylum seekers sent to Nauru we could guarantee would receive human treatment, in contrast to the potential for them being whipped and god knows what else in Malaysia.  He further cited the medical care made available on Nauru which is in contrast to no medical assistance or housing in Malaysia, where asylum seekers apparently often drift into crime in order to survive.



I'm happy to stand corrected. 

For some reason I have memories of someone in opposition, more than likely Abbott, supporting the concept until it became obvious that it was not legally tenable. Can't find a link to support my memory though!


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> This is the ABSOLUTE truth.  The do refuse, but the more interesting question is WHY?
> 
> Having grown up in Labor heartland and now completely disenchanted, I wonder if this theory resonates with anyone out there?




Stumpy.
There are plenty off us out there! Its just that we have come to a conclusion that Gillard thinks she  knows more about what we want, how we would like to live and how we would like to treat our neighbour and fellow worker.( be they labor or coalition voters)
We the voter have no say. She is the Prime Minister, and because of her step up into that position, she now regards us as the tax payer. We are a number. 
She thinks that she has dominance over all our rational thinking and our lives.
But one day in the future, we the voter will be given the opportunity to show our discontent. We the Queenslander's  spoke at the state election, and we will be given another opportunity to sort out Federal Politics.
I can assure you that it will be more decisive, than the fact, will Gillard remains a politician.?

I am confident the Australian voter has had enough of Labor in Federal POLITICS.
Julia may have a "smart lip":, but we will deliver a smart vote without uttering a word at the next federal election.
And as "Forrest Gump" said, " that's all I have got to say about that.
joea


----------



## Julia

StumpyPhantom said:


> The 2 real Labor statesmen since Rudd became PM have been marginalised.  John Faulkner continues to try, speaking his mind behind closed doors but he is ignored.  Lindsay Tanner gracefuly exited on the day Rudd got knifed without causing a ripple.



+1.  If John Faulkner and Lindsay Tanner were running the party it would be a whole different story.



Eager said:


> I'm happy to stand corrected.
> 
> For some reason I have memories of someone in opposition, more than likely Abbott, supporting the concept until it became obvious that it was not legally tenable. Can't find a link to support my memory though!



Maybe just some wishful thinking, huh Eager?

Certainly it would have greatly simplified and enhanced the government's standing had the Libs endorsed the Malaysia Solution and many Liberal supporters did think Tony Abbott should have taken a more conciliatory stand on this.
But, as always, the politics of the situation won out.


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> . Can't find a link to support my memory though!




That's because it is a lie.


----------



## Eager

Calliope said:


> That's because it is a lie.



Not that your comments normally warrant a response Collopy, but I did not intentionally lie, or attempt mischief.

This is not the first time that a blind 'righty' has found to be incapable of taking things on face value.


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> This is not the first time that a blind 'righty' has found to be incapable of taking things on *face value.*




Would that be the shifty face you have chosen for your avatar? It is spot on.


----------



## rumpole

> The 2 real Labor statesmen since Rudd became PM have been marginalised. John Faulkner continues to try, speaking his mind behind closed doors but he is ignored. Lindsay Tanner gracefuly exited on the day Rudd got knifed without causing a ripple.




Aree. I'd also add Barry Jones who also just disappeared from the Party with hardly a ripple.

Labor don't tend to keep their thinkers do they ? And the thinker of the Liberal Party is in a minor portfolio where he hardly ever does any communicating.


----------



## Calliope

rumpole said:


> And the thinker of the Liberal Party is in a minor portfolio where he hardly ever does any communicating.




The problem is that the "thinker" you are referring to, is more aligned to the thinking  of your mob than to the Liberals.


----------



## rumpole

Calliope said:


> The problem is that the "thinker" you are referring to, is more aligned to the thinking  of your mob than to the Liberals.




Funny, I keep hearing that the Liberal Party is a "broad church" where all opinions are welcomed and respected.

Let's remember that Malcolm only lost the leadership by one vote, so maybe there are a lot more 'traitors' in the Libs than you may like to believe.


----------



## Calliope

rumpole said:


> Funny, I keep hearing that the Liberal Party is a "broad church" where all opinions are welcomed and respected.




If you believe that, you are very naive indeed.  Geeenies and pinkos cannot to be trusted.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> Stumpy.
> We the voter have no say. She is the Prime Minister, and because of her step up into that position, she now regards us as the tax payer. We are a number.
> She thinks that she has dominance over all our rational thinking and our lives.
> But one day in the future, we the voter will be given the opportunity to show our discontent. We the Queenslander's  spoke at the state election, and we will be given another opportunity to sort out Federal Politics.
> I can assure you that it will be more decisive, than the fact, will Gillard remains a politician.?
> 
> joea




Joea - will you be disappointed if you don't get the opportunity to vote in the 2013 Federal election with Gillard as PM and they replace her with someone to "save the furniture"?  You and me (and others) have obviously got our kerosene and matches ready to burn the whole house down...


----------



## Eager

Calliope said:


> Would that be the shifty face you have chosen for your avatar? It is spot on.



Avatar wars! Cool!!!!

You don't remember Boris Badenov? He was a fictional cartoon character and as such made the world a happ....oh, forget it, there is obviously no humour with the liberal party.

Anyway, I note with your avatar that no-one is actually steering. it's a bit like the lights being on but no-one is home.


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> Avatar wars! Cool!!!!
> 
> You don't remember Boris Badenov? He was a fictional cartoon character and as such made the world a happ....oh, forget it, there is obviously no humour with the liberal party.




Not "Cool" -  just juvenile. I can understsnd that you feel bad about being caught out telling porkies.  However this is standard practice with your mob. If they cannot dig up some dirt on an opponent, they will make it up. It could rebound - ask ex-premier Bligh.


----------



## MrBurns

Bob Brown has resigned.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Bob Brown has resigned.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/




I think his mental breakdown has come to a head.

Otherwise the Martians have hypnotised him to quit.


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> Joea - will you be disappointed if you don't get the opportunity to vote in the 2013 Federal election with Gillard as PM and they replace her with someone to "save the furniture"?  You and me (and others) have obviously got our kerosene and matches ready to burn the whole house down...




+1
Stumpy.
With the state election I followed sports bet. It was more accurate than the media.

For Federal Election.
Coalition $1.26
Labor $3.65

Leaders Coalition
Abbott $1.25
Turnbull $4.00

Labor 
Gillard $1.33
Shorten $5.00

I understand things can change. But Shorten is not ready. 
Gillard is already growing her fingernails in case anybody gets close.
joe


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Bob Brown has resigned.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/



One happy camper today will be Martin Ferguson.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

drsmith said:


> One happy camper today will be Martin Ferguson.




Yeah - he can't call Christine Milne a basket weaver - not without getting his tongue ripped out anyway!


----------



## Eager

Calliope said:


> Not "Cool" -  just juvenile. I can understsnd that you feel bad about being caught out telling porkies.  However this is standard practice with your mob. If they cannot dig up some dirt on an opponent, they will make it up. It could rebound - ask ex-premier Bligh.



I find your remarks offensive. You have directly called me a liar.

I made the mistake of assuming that since the opposition and the Government were in broad agreeance of offshore processing, this initially _included_ the Malaysia Solution until it was deemed illegal. Obviously, when the High Court made their decision in this matter, the Opposition took full advantage; I took that as a convenient backflip on their previous position. I have since researched and found that wasn't the case. Now, I do not thoroughly digest every skerrick of media coverage regarding immigration policy/asylum seeker/refugee issues because I'm simply not hung up about it like your mob, so this broad agreeance between both sides was foremost in my mind.

Why I should ever really have to justify myself to you is something that I'm questioning as I write, but I guess I do so to demonstrate that YOU have jumped to an unreasonable conclusion.

I look forward to the day when YOU grow out of YOUR juvenile state to develop the quality of humility instead, and furthermore, I accept your apology!


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> I made the mistake of assuming that since the opposition and the Government were in broad agreeance of offshore processing, this initially _included_ the Malaysia Solution until it was deemed illegal. Obviously, when the High Court made their decision in this matter, the Opposition took full advantage; I took that as a convenient backflip on their previous position. I have since researched and found that wasn't the case. Now, I do not thoroughly digest every skerrick of media coverage regarding immigration policy/asylum seeker/refugee issues because I'm simply not hung up about it like your mob, so this broad agreeance between both sides was foremost in my mind.



A somewhat convoluted way of admitting that you made it up.

There's no reasonable defence for Labor in relation to its current predicament on asylum policy. As I have said before, Labor and its partners in government command a majority in both houses.


----------



## Julia

[In the interest of fairness, this is what Eager originally said:


> Didn't Abbott back the Malaysia solution until it hit that legal hurdle?




Then Sails (a Liberal supporter) said:


sails said:


> I can't remember, but Abbott can hardly be blamed for Gillard refusing to re-instate the Pacific Solution which WORKED.




So Sails couldn't remember either what exactly the opposition's stance was on this at the time.
So it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me that a Labor voter couldn't either exactly remember the state of political play at that stage.

When I then made a post making it clear Abbott had never, ever supported the Malaysia Solution Eager said:



Eager said:


> I'm happy to stand corrected.
> 
> For some reason I have memories of someone in opposition, more than likely Abbott, supporting the concept until it became obvious that it was not legally tenable. Can't find a link to support my memory though!




As someone who often half remembers something but who is hazy on the detail, I'd have thought it would be reasonable to take Eager at face value here, instead of hurling insults?


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> So it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me that a Labor voter couldn't either exactly remember the state of political play at that stage.



You might have a point. 

Any voter still rusted onto Labor have had their eyes shut for so long that they have forgotten what daylight is.


----------



## Logique

rumpole said:


> Funny, I keep hearing that the Liberal Party is a "broad church" where all opinions are welcomed and respected.
> Let's remember that Malcolm only lost the leadership by one vote, so maybe there are a lot more 'traitors' in the Libs than you may like to believe.



Fair enough, but hold another vote now and the margin would be greater. I'm not anti-Malcolm, I'm in his corner if he would run for Treasurer. But sorry Malcolm, not for leader, not ever.

On another subject, will the Coalition ever find a realistic and cohesive policy on parental leave/baby bonus.


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> I made the mistake of assuming that since the opposition and the Government were in broad agreeance of offshore processing, this initially _included_ the Malaysia Solution until it was deemed illegal. Obviously, when the High Court made their decision in this matter, the Opposition took full advantage; I took that as a convenient backflip on their previous position.




So you jumped in half-cocked you little Eager Beaver



> Why I should ever really have to justify myself to you is something that I'm questioning as I write, but I guess I do so to demonstrate that YOU have jumped to an unreasonable conclusion.




You can't justify telling porkies. I guess Juliar is not a good role model for you.


----------



## wayneL

Julia has pointed out fairly that Eager's mistake was an honest mistake. Let's not be like the stinking politicians themselves with all the faux indignation.


----------



## Calliope

wayneL said:


> I Julia has pointed out fairly that Eager's mistake was an honest mistake. Let's not be like the stinking politicians themselves with all the faux indignation.




It is interesting that the "honest mistake" was made in an attempt to put down Tony Abbott. I am not a great supporter of Abbott but I am sure the left can dig up enough dirt on him without resorting to "honest mistakes."

I am not the least bit indignant, "faux" or otherwise, just amused that I am the one accused of being 'insulting" for objecting to an attempted deception.

However, you are the Moderator and if it is your decision that I am the guilty one  (being comparable to a "stinking politician") then of course I must accept your judgment.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> [...Then Sails (a Liberal supporter) said:
> 
> So Sails couldn't remember either what exactly the opposition's stance was on this at the time.





Actually, while I am conservative, I'm more down on bad government than supporting a particular party.  At this stage, the coalition offer a better (although not perfect) alternative, imo.

And I have been exceptionally busy for some months now, so some details are easily forgotten.  However, I would think a labor supporter would not forget such details as they have so little to throw at Abbott that they seem to clutch at any straw, no matter how small.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> However, I would think a labor supporter would not forget such details as they have so little to throw at Abbott that they seem to clutch at any straw, no matter how small.




They were my sentiments exactly. However I was caught up in a well crafted bush-whacking and leaned on to recant. First came Eager's protestations of foul play, then Julia acting as his legal brief and citing you as a witness, and then Wayne stepping in to deliver the guilty verdict.

However I am very low down in the food chain of this forum and I overstepped my mark. For this I apologise.


----------



## MrBurns

Here's a short list (the top 50 only) of Labors achievements, I'm sure many of you will pass this on to the many victims of this Govt.

1.. Carbon Tax – “There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead.”
2.. Nation Broadband Network – $50 billion but no cost-benefit analysis
3.. Building the Education Revolution – The school halls fiasco
4.. Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) – Dumped after deaths and injuries
5. Citizens Assembly – Dumped
6.. Cash for Clunkers – Dumped
7.. Hospital Reform – Nothing
8.. Digital set-top boxes – Cheaper at Harvey Norman and now going obsolete
9.. Emissions Trading Scheme – Abandoned
10. Mining Tax – Continuing uncertainty for our miners
11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia – A massive over-reaction that decimated the cattle industry and transport industry in Northern Australia
12. Detention Centres – Riots & massive cost blow-outs
13. East Timor ‘solution’ – Announced before agreed
14. Malaysia ‘solution’ – Scrapped because Malaysia not a signatory to UN Human Rights Charter
15. Manus Island ‘solution’ – On the backburner
16.. Computers in Schools – $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered
17. Cutting Red Tape – 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed
18. Asia Pacific Community – Another expensive Rudd frolic. Going nowhere
19. Green Loans Program – Abandoned. Only 3.5% of promised loans delivered
20. Solar Homes & Communities plan – Shut down after $534 million blow out
21. Green Car Innovation Fund – Abandoned
22. Solar Credits Scheme – Scaled back
23. Green Start Program – Scrapped
24. Retooling for Climate Change Program – Abolished
25. Childcare Centres – Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered
26. Take a “meat axe”’ to the Public Service – 24,000 more public servants added
27. Murray Darling Basin Plan – back to the drawing board
28. 2020 Summit – Meaningless talkfest
29. Tax Summit – Deferred and downgraded
30. Population Policy – Sets no targets
31. Fuel Watch – Abandoned
32. Grocery Choice – Abandoned
33. $900 Stimulus cheques – Sent to dead people and overseas residents. The majority spent on flat screen TV's and fast food.
34. Foreign Policy – In turmoil with Kevin (747) Rudd running riot flying around the world spending more than the US Secretary of State
35. National Schools Solar Program – Closing two years early
36. Solar Hot Water Rebate – Abandoned
37. Oceanic Viking – Caved in
38. GP Super Clinics – 64 promised, only 11 operational
39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics – 12 promised, none delivered
40. Trade Training Centres – 2650 promised, 70 operational
41. Bid for UN Security Council seat – An expensive Rudd frolic
42.. My School Website – Revamped but problems continue
43. National Curriculum – States in uproar
44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House – 99% of small businesses reject it
45. Indigenous Housing Program – way behind schedule
46. Rudd Bank – Went nowhere        
47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for Defence uniforms – Ditched
48. Innovation Ambassadors Program – junked
49. Six Submarines – none operational
50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion and rising – to pay for all of this and much more


----------



## Julia

Sails and Calliope:   all I'm trying for is some semblance of objectivity and the capacity to take other members at face value in something as trivial as the current discussion.

If you are offended, Sails, at my nominating your political leaning as "Liberal" rather than "conservative", then I humbly apologise.

As Wayne observed, sometimes the exchanges on these political threads are at a level similar to those of the politicians we so criticise.
Surely we can have different views and express these without delivering personal insults to "the other side"!


----------



## DB008

MrBurns said:


> 49. Six Submarines – none operational




I thought that 2 of the 6 were operational (or have crew for 2?)

(http://afr.com/p/opinion/subs_loom_large_when_bill_is_bn_Y6CLeEjPnWIglxa7hKQvxI) Proposal, $36 Billion?


----------



## MrBurns

DB008 said:


> I thought that 2 of the 6 were operational (or have crew for 2?)
> 
> (http://afr.com/p/opinion/subs_loom_large_when_bill_is_bn_Y6CLeEjPnWIglxa7hKQvxI) Proposal, $36 Billion?




List was probably compiled a while ago...


----------



## ChrisJH

Which submarines are these?

I thought we were still stuck with this Collins Class subs from years ago that were pretty much useless to begin with.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

MrBurns said:


> Here's a short list (the top 50 only) of Labors achievements, I'm sure many of you will pass this on to the many victims of this Govt.




Hey Mr Burns - that's a long list (of failures).  Sometimes, the best way to defeat your opponent is to point to their real achievements.

Can you think of some, because I'm struggling!  There was the Stolen Generation apology, but Julia would never call that her own.  What about Nicola and her plain packaging (or are we all into that)?

I despair at what the Labor government's 2013 election campaign would look like, if they can't list their past achievements with a straight face.  They're certainly not going to try it on with a future promise are they?


----------



## dutchie

StumpyPhantom said:


> Hey Mr Burns - that's a long list (of failures).  Sometimes, the best way to defeat your opponent is to point to their real achievements.
> 
> Can you think of some, because I'm struggling!  There was the Stolen Generation apology, but Julia would never call that her own.  What about Nicola and her plain packaging (or are we all into that)?
> 
> I despair at what the Labor government's 2013 election campaign would look like, if they can't list their past achievements with a straight face.  They're certainly not going to try it on with a future promise are they?




Very easy for Labor, they will simply list those 50 (and more) as successes.
They really think that they are successes (see Kevin Rudds farewell speech when Julia usurped him).

No worries.


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> Hey Mr Burns - that's a long list (of failures).  Sometimes, the best way to defeat your opponent is to point to their real achievements.




Her personal achievements are she knifed Rudd and became PM, there's 2, it stops at that.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...If you are offended, Sails, at my nominating your political leaning as "Liberal" rather than "conservative", then I humbly apologise...(




Julia, no offence and no need for an apology...

I just corrected your statement as I have no affiliations with any party and don't completely support any of them...

However, my current sentiment is that the Coalition would do a better job of running the economy.  I think a drover's dog would have more common sense than some of this government decisions.




StumpyPhantom said:


> ...I despair at what the Labor government's 2013 election campaign would look like, if they can't list their past achievements with a straight face.  They're certainly not going to try it on with a future promise are they?




Stumpy, haven't you heard Gillard crowing about her achievements?  Carbon tax is one of her biggest achievements in her eyes it seems.  Doesn't seem to matter that the people didn't want her to do that, and yet, she continues to collect her pay week in and week out for supposedly REPRESENTING us.  If she did that as a lawyer, her clients would surely sack her.

And, perhaps she is proud of her open border policy.  She got rid of that nasty Pacific Solution which protected our borders so well.  Yes, it cost money, but I wonder if it is but a fraction of what is currently being spent.

And even worse, she seems to think she is still getting things done...shudder...


----------



## OzWaveGuy

sails said:


> ...
> Stumpy, haven't you heard Gillard crowing about her achievements?  Carbon tax is one of her biggest achievements in her eyes it seems.




I'd have to agree that it is in fact her biggest achievement - in the eyes of her masters. She knew the tax would mean defeat for her, her party and the greens, but clearly a win for the UN puppet masters.




> she continues to collect her pay week in and week out for supposedly REPRESENTING us.




The answers to this question would be most revealing, would they not?  She cannot represent you - this is a legal impossibility, she can only represent legal fictions...a cursory glance at the Interpretations ACT and the Evidence ACT provides some insight on how Government is legally constructed. You are treated as a business (aka employee), working for the Commonwealth of Australia. Are employers required to do as you insist?


----------



## dutchie

Its Abbotts fault that the "Its all Tony Abbott's fault" campaign is not working!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

dutchie said:


> Its Abbotts fault that the "Its all Tony Abbott's fault" campaign is not working!




I'll pay that one dutchie lol.

gg


----------



## joea

sails said:


> Stumpy, haven't you heard Gillard crowing about her achievements?  Carbon tax is one of her biggest achievements in her eyes it seems.  Doesn't seem to matter that the people didn't want her to do that, and yet, she continues to collect her pay week in and week out for supposedly REPRESENTING us.  If she did that as a lawyer, her clients would surely sack her.




My name is Julia Gillard. I know what is good for the Australian people. The voters do not.
Leave it to me. It's all under control. That's my job. (Gee I am so smart).
joea


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> Here's a short list (the top 50 only) of Labors achievements, I'm sure many of you will pass this on to the many victims of this Govt.




Mr Burns,

You had already produced that list, way back on Page 134 of this thread.  I humoured you and responded to it thus (but am STILL awaiting a response ): 

1.. Carbon Tax - yes, a lie. Politicians do lie, y’know. It is not the end of the world.
2.. Nation Broadband Network – it is about time we had a go at catching up with Lithuania.
3.. Building the Education Revolution – apparently, by comparison, there will be no education under the coalition.
4.. Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) – Dumped after deaths and injuries due to coalition voting rogue small business proprietors rorting the system.
5. Citizens Assembly – Dumped. No big deal.
6.. Cash for Clunkers – Dumped, but a good idea at the time. Have you still got an LH Torana or something?
7.. Hospital Reform – Nothing yet.
8.. Digital set-top boxes – Cheaper at Harvey Norman and now going obsolete, but only if your Great Aunt can afford a new telly instead.
9.. Emissions Trading Scheme – Temporarily delayed, but it will take over from the Carbon Tax soon enough.
10. Mining Tax – Continuing uncertainty for our miners because Twiggy might actually have to pay tax, the poor dear.
11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia – An initial over-reaction that caused some disruption to the cattle and transport industry in Northern Australia, but nothing compared to the drop in quotas that everyone in the industry knew were coming anyway.
12. Detention Centres – Riots & massive cost blow-outs like any incarceration facility regardless of government.
13. East Timor ‘solution’ – Announced before agreed that it was a possibility...
14. Malaysia ‘solution’ – Scrapped because Malaysia not a signatory to UN Human Rights Charter, but even the opposition was sure it would get through at the time.
15. Manus Island ‘solution’ – On the backburner, but still there.
16.. Computers in Schools – $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered, but still far better than no computers in schools. 
17. Cutting Red Tape – 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed [please cite]
18. Asia Pacific Community – Big picture thinking, the likes of which the coalition are not capable of.
19. Green Loans Program – morphed into the Green Start program.
20. Solar Homes & Communities plan – Shut down after $534 million blow out due to phenomenal uptake; the people want to be green, y’see.
21. Green Car Innovation Fund – Abandoned to pay for natural disaster relief. That’s what governments should do; look after people in need at the time. You obviously disagree.
22. Solar Credits Scheme – Gradually scaled back as it was always going to be. STC’s still get paid at 3x until July 1. Don’t you have solar panels yet? Why not? 
23. Green Start Program – Scrapped due to the realisation of unmitigated risks, just as any responsible gov’t would. 
24. Retooling for Climate Change Program – Abolished in name only. I know for a fact that money is available for businesses to become greener through various State programs.
25. Childcare Centres – Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered, A Rudd initiative.
26. Take a “meat axe”’ to the Public Service – 24,000 more public servants added [please cite]
27. Murray Darling Basin Plan – back to the drawing board because the bickering state governments couldn’t agree.
28. 2020 Summit – Meaningless talkfest, like any talkfest, regardless of who is in power.
29. Tax Summit – did you mean the Henry tax review? Some policies adopted, like the change in FBT rules for novated leases, have resulted in a windfall and have ensured that the Carbon Tax will not be applied to fuel.
30. Population Policy – Sets no targets, nor should it.
31. Fuel Watch – Abandoned. There is no point when private industry colludes anyway.
32. Grocery Choice – Abandoned. People are intelligent enough to make up their own minds.
33. $900 Stimulus cheques – Sent to dead people and overseas residents. The majority spent on flat screen TV's and fast food. [please cite]
34. Foreign Policy – In turmoil with Kevin (747) Rudd running riot flying around the world spending more than the US Secretary of State, proving that the US Secretary of State was lazy by comparison.
35. National Schools Solar Program – Closing two years early but better than no program at all.
36. Solar Hot Water Rebate – Abandoned just 4 months early after running for over 4 years. There was no rebate prior to that.
37. Oceanic Viking – Caved in, after all, we are talking about human beings.
38. GP Super Clinics – 64 promised, only 11 operational so far.
39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics – 12 promised in the long term, 8 trialled to start with.
40. Trade Training Centres – 2650 promised, 70 operational so far.
41. Bid for UN Security Council seat – A Rudd aspiration.
42. My School Website – Revamped but problems continue like any new IT system.
43. National Curriculum – States in uproar because they don’t want to be found out.
44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House – 99% of small businesses reject it because they see superannuation as a cost rather than as a responsibility. Poor workers.
45. Indigenous Housing Program – way behind schedule but happening nevertheless.
46. Rudd Bank – Why are we still focusing on Rudd?
47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for Defence uniforms – Ditched, as it should.
48. Innovation Ambassadors Program – I googled that and got directed to the NASA website lol!
49. Six Submarines – none operational because they are not planned to be until 2025!!!!!! You’re desperate now, aren’t you?
50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion and rising – to pay for all of this and much more, but still a drop in the ocean on a world scale.


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> Mr Burns,
> 
> You had already produced that list, way back on Page 134 of this thread.  I humoured you and responded to it thus (but am STILL awaiting a response ):
> 
> .




Well I cant recall but it doesnt suprise me that I had the brilliance to post it at least once before, deserves another run anyway.
There's your response.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> Well I cant recall



 Wellllll, if it's good enough for you...are you listening, *Calli*pso troll*ope*?

Told you we'd get along just fine, Monty.


----------



## Eager

It would be remiss of me to not recognise the objectivity of Julia in the last little while in this thread. Rusted-on conservatives could learn a lot from her.


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> It would be remiss of me to not recognise the objectivity of Julia in the last little while in this thread. Rusted-on conservatives could learn a lot from her.




Julia is the personification of reasonableness, let's send her a bottle of scotch and see what emerges then


----------



## wayneL

Eager said:


> It would be remiss of me to not recognise the objectivity of Julia in the last little while in this thread. Rusted-on conservatives could learn a lot from her.




Indeed Julia is a true ornament to this forum.

I think both sides could learn a lot from her.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

wayneL said:


> Indeed Julia is a true ornament to this forum.
> 
> I think both sides could learn a lot from her.




+10

gg


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> It would be remiss of me to not recognise the objectivity of Julia in the last little while in this thread. Rusted-on conservatives could learn a lot from her.



Ah, Eager, you have just dissuaded me from the tedious task of going through Burnsie's long list where you have rebutted most of the items, and putting you right.

Instead, I'll revel in the brief moment of harmony.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Ah, Eager, you have just dissuaded me from the tedious task of going through Burnsie's long list where you have rebutted most of the items, and putting you right.
> 
> Instead, I'll revel in the brief moment of harmony.




I dispute all the rebuttals.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> I dispute all the rebuttals.



Then go ahead and counter-rebut!


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> Then go ahead and counter-rebut!




I've got 3 weeks holiday coming up in a couple of months I'll try to get through it then


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

MrBurns said:


> I dispute all the rebuttals.






Eager said:


> Then go ahead and counter-rebut!




I rebut, you all, bit defend to my death your right to rebut.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I rebut, you all, bit defend to my death your right to rebut.
> 
> gg




I rebut that and challenge any further rebuttals.


----------



## Calliope

Eager said:


> Wellllll, if it's good enough for you...are you listening, *Calli*pso troll*ope*?




Well aren't you the smart one. I suppose now you have cosied up :remybussi and are under the protective wings of Julia and Wayne that your innate nastiness will be given free rein.

However I have the feeling that the "brief moment of harmony" that Julia is revelling in signifies a false dawn.


----------



## drsmith

Exhibit 1:


Eager said:


> Didn't Abbott back the Malaysia solution until it hit that legal hurdle?



It was actually a question, but from one who engages actively in political discussion, I would have thought it would be a question to which the answer would be known.

Upon rebuttal, it was followed by this,

Exhibit 2:


Eager said:


> I'm happy to stand corrected.
> 
> For some reason I have *memories* of someone in opposition, more than likely Abbott, supporting the concept until it became obvious that it was not legally tenable. Can't find a link to support my memory though!




From Eager's own memory, he answers his own question. If he felt he knew the answer, why ask the question in the first place, and why stand corrected if he has such memories ?

Those memories however evolve into an assumption as the discussion progresses.

Exhibit 3:


Eager said:


> I made the mistake of *assuming* that since the opposition and the Government were in broad agreeance of offshore processing, this initially _included_ the Malaysia Solution until it was deemed illegal.




More holes than Swiss cheese.

My bolds.


----------



## Calliope

Careful Doc. Questioning Mr Eager's veracity is off limits!!:headshake


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Careful Doc. Questioning Mr Eager's veracity is off limits!!:headshake




I don't know about that, but another interesting point to highlight is that in the three posts I have highlighted above, Eager has attempted to taint the opposition with an inconsistency on it's position with Labor's Malaysia solution in each post, whether that be via a question, memories that could not be supported by evidence or in the end, an assumption.

I reckon he had a grin bigger than on his avatar when he made all three of those posts.


----------



## dutchie

Gillard shows complete contempt of Australia

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...bottproofed-20120417-1x5op.html#ixzz1sKgPw3e4


----------



## Eager

Calliope said:


> Well aren't you the smart one. I suppose now you have cosied up :remybussi and are under the protective wings of Julia and Wayne that your innate nastiness will be given free rein.
> 
> However I have the feeling that the "brief moment of harmony" that Julia is revelling in signifies a false dawn.



What a queer post.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> I don't know about that, but another interesting point to highlight is that in the three posts I have highlighted above, Eager has attempted to taint the opposition with an inconsistency on it's position with Labor's Malaysia solution in each post, whether that be via a question, memories that could not be supported by evidence or in the end, an assumption.
> 
> I reckon he had a grin bigger than on his avatar when he made all three of those posts.




Wayne advised me that Julia had already ruled on this and that it was an "honest mistake'" and I was being insulting for querying Eager's veracity, and it was the act of a "stinking politician." There is no appeal against this kangaroo court.

End of story. Don't go there Doc, if you value your well earned reputation for balanced comment.


----------



## Logique

Some competition coming in the Get Up space.



> http://www.taxpayers.org.au/
> The Australian Taxpayers' Alliance is a unique grassroots advocacy & activist organisation, dedicated to standing up for hardworking Australian taxpayers. We oppose the high taxes, wasteful spending, and crippling red tape that are hurting Aussie families and businesses, and provide a voice for everyone who opposes the big-government agenda. Our first priority is the repeal of the unnecessary and destructive Gillard-Brown tax on carbon dioxide!
> 
> We hope you can join us for our formal *launch in Sydney on 1 May*, and visit our new webpage upon launch! Sign up to be notified when we launch


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Some competition coming in the Get Up space.




Excellent.  About time.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Sorry I've tried to stay out of this thread.

The Gillard government would be the greatest crowd of losers, no-hopers and muppets that ever walked god's earth , bar none.

Finito.

gg


----------



## joea

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Sorry I've tried to stay out of this thread.
> 
> The Gillard government would be the greatest crowd of losers, no-hopers and muppets that ever walked god's earth , bar none.
> 
> Finito.
> 
> gg




+1, +2, +3, their out!!!!!
joea


----------



## wayneL

Calliope said:


> Well aren't you the smart one. I suppose now you have cosied up :remybussi and are under the protective wings of Julia and Wayne that your innate nastiness will be given free rein.
> 
> However I have the feeling that the "brief moment of harmony" that Julia is revelling in signifies a false dawn.






Calliope said:


> Careful Doc. Questioning Mr Eager's veracity is off limits!!:headshake






Calliope said:


> Wayne advised me that Julia had already ruled on this and that it was an "honest mistake'" and I was being insulting for querying Eager's veracity, and it was the act of a "stinking politician." There is no appeal against this kangaroo court.
> 
> End of story. Don't go there Doc, if you value your well earned reputation for balanced comment.




:sleeping:

Come on Calliope, there is no protective wings, kangaroo courts or anything of the sort.

There is plenty of hurley burley in these politics threads from all sides, and sometimes we all take it a bit too far. 

Let's move on shall we?


----------



## Calliope

wayneL said:


> Let's move on shall we?




Okay, so you took it a bit too far, but as far as i am concerned it's water under the bridge.:iagree:


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> I don't know about that, but another interesting point to highlight is that in the three posts I have highlighted above, Eager has attempted to taint the opposition with an inconsistency on it's position with Labor's Malaysia solution in each post, whether that be via a question, memories that could not be supported by evidence or in the end, an assumption.
> 
> I reckon he had a grin bigger than on his avatar when he made all three of those posts.





Well said, Doc...  Sorry, I'm a bit late to the party on this one but have to agree with doc.  Moving on now - or is it mooving foorwaard...


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Some competition coming in the Get Up space.




Interesting - thanks Logique!  After nearly getting sucked in with GetUp some time back thinking they were genuinely wanting to give people a voice with their petitions and nearly provided them with my email, I decided to see who this Timothy Andrews is that is running this new organisation.

Here is some information I found on him and it seems he is pretty genuine - will see what else I can find out about him:



> Timothy Andrews is a full-time Masters student at the University of Sydney, and works part time as a paralegal. He is the recently re-elected president of the Australian Liberal Students' Federation, and the vice-president (policy) of the Young Liberal Movement of Australia (NSW Division). Timothy Andrews also sits on the Executive of the National Union of Students, and has previously interned in Washington DC for the Cato Institute. These are his personal views.



http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/tim-andrews-38760.html

And an interesting article from him on the influence of the World Wildlife Fund:
http://www.menzieshouse.com.au/tim-andrews/


----------



## tinhat

Calliope said:


> Would that be the shifty face you have chosen for your avatar? It is spot on.




Seriously, you might want to think about making personal attacks on Boris Badenof

Let's just put it this way, I believe he is friends with the well known Industrial Relations Consultant, Tom Domican.


----------



## joea

Well I have seen it all.
Many times the voters have been told that the Federal Government is independent of the RBA.

Well my take is that the Federal Government is now campaigning on a rate decrease next month.
Gillard has had a say.
On the news this morning Conroy has had a say.
But you guessed it. He could not go the distance without mentioning Tony Abbott.

So I have come to conclude that Labor MP's have each been given a "blister"( that is a stick on note), to attach to the mirror in their bathroom.
It says "Today is kick "s**t out of Tony Abbott day."
joea


----------



## Calliope

joea said:


> So I have come to conclude that Labor MP's have each been given a "blister"( that is a stick on note), to attach to the mirror in their bathroom.
> It says "Today is kick "s**t out of Tony Abbott day."
> joea




You are probably right Joe. Apparently the message has also gone out to "rusted on" lefties. Conroy's mantra is also "kick the sh*t out of The Australian."  It is ironic that the Minister for Communications is the foremost opponent of freedom of speech.


----------



## moXJO

joea said:


> Well I have seen it all.
> Many times the voters have been told that the Federal Government is independent of the RBA.
> 
> Well my take is that the Federal Government is now campaigning on a rate decrease next month.
> 
> joea




Smoke and mirrors, the fed had hinted at a rate cut already due to current conditions. Labor trying to score some fake brownie points. So labor knows it's coming but want to score some easy polls with some fake campaigning. Even if RBA don't lower their rates it's basically a a low risk strat for labor


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> Smoke and mirrors, the fed had hinted at a rate cut already due to current conditions. Labor trying to score some fake brownie points. So labor knows it's coming but want to score some easy polls with some fake campaigning. Even if RBA don't lower their rates it's basically a a low risk strat for labor




The government will be restricting spending next budget, this will lower growth which will cause a lowering of interest rates and lower Australian dollar.
Win/win as far as I can see with the morgage belt (but not the retirees). 

David Murray is horribly conflicted and unable to see things through his own political biases. He should be ignored.


----------



## Calliope

The Ugly Face of the Abbott Haters. 

Greg Sheridan says;

"What a horrible, sneering face the tribunes of tolerance wear" 

Now where have I seen that sneering face?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...with-tony-abbott/story-e6frgd0x-1226332078158


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> The Ugly Face of the Abbott Haters.
> 
> Greg Sheridan says;
> 
> "What a horrible, sneering face the tribunes of tolerance wear"
> 
> Now where have I seen that sneering face?
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...with-tony-abbott/story-e6frgd0x-1226332078158



The article is only available to subscribers, Calliope.  Any chance of your doing a copy and paste for here?


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> The article is only available to subscribers, Calliope.  Any chance of your doing a copy and paste for here?




This is the article.  As an aside Julia, you can subscribe for a 1 month free trial to the Australian Digital Version at the moment. That is how I have access and it is the second free trial I have been given.

*How the tables have turned: the night intolerance came to dinner with Tony Abbott*

DINING in the heart of Greens MP Adam Bandt's seat, Tony Abbott might not have expected the support he got from Lygon Street customers last Sunday night.

If Labor and the Greens are losing in Melbourne's Carlton, the government really may be in for an electoral Armageddon. That strikes me as the only long-term political point to take out of an unpleasant little kerfuffle in Melbourne last Sunday night, when I had dinner with the Opposition Leader.

Dining with Abbott implies no particular partisanship on my part. In the course of several decades of journalism, I suspect I have had marginally more meals with Labor folks than with Liberals. Certainly Abbott is a good friend.

I suggested we dine at Lygon Street, one of Melbourne's glories and a street whose Italian cafes I love. Lygon Street was busy so we parked a couple of blocks away and strolled round to find an eatery.

I've dined with Abbott in Lygon Street before and people are always happy to see a celebrity and say hello. If they want to disagree with him about something, Abbott is always happy to listen and engage. He is a courteous and friendly person.

On Sunday, a group of six to 10 demonstrators burst into the restaurant, surrounded our table, and started screaming something along the lines of "Tony Abbott, you don't dig it, you're a bigot" or some such drooling nonsense.

They were apparently objecting to the fact that Abbott, like Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd, opposes gay marriage.

Abbott remained perfectly calm throughout.

One dear, white-haired old lady put herself at some risk by trying to get the demonstrators to leave.

But they planned to stay.

Abbott and I had to decide what to do. Should we leave?

Eventually the manager threw the demonstrators out, one or two at a time. Restaurant staff prevented them coming back in.

Outside, the champions of equality and tolerance continued screaming and began banging on the windows. One of the staff worried the windows would be broken.

A number of diners at the tables on the pavement told the demonstrators to get lost. Not only were the demonstrators spoiling their dinner, these folks thought it unfair that Abbott could not even go to a restaurant without sectarian left-wing haters harassing him.

There is something genuinely un-Australian and offensive about the idea that when you disagree with someone's politics you confront them physically and abusively.

I've brought all sorts of famous and controversial people to dinner in Australian cities and I've always been proud of the fact that Australians have a respect for people, that they don't abuse, or trespass on the privacy, of someone just because they are well known.

Abbott was considerate throughout. He apologised to the manager for being the occasion of such a scene. Prior to the demonstration, a number of people in the restaurant had said g'day to him, none especially political, all friendly, concerned not to interrupt a private dinner.

The manager apologised to Abbott for the actions of a few idiots and asked us to go upstairs, where we finished our dinner. The restaurant called the police. The demonstrators dispersed when the wallopers arrived. The police were surprised Abbott didn't have some protective federal police presence around him.

But in Australia we haven't needed that much. That's the beauty of Australia.

We left the restaurant half an hour later.

What a horrible, sneering face the tribunes of tolerance wear.


----------



## Logique

Thought that looked like Greg Sheridan with AbbottAbbottAbbott. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226332078158
Good article, with a good tag. A major misfire for the demonstrators, who didn't look too tolerant. And could probably benefit from some personal counselling.


----------



## Knobby22

Typical tribal behaviour. They wouldn't do it on their own.


----------



## MrBurns

Lets see if the RBA does what they want to do or what Labor wants - 


> Gillard pushes case to cut interest rates
> 
> Julia Gillard says the Federal Government's pursuit of a budget surplus is an economic imperative that will leave the Reserve Bank room to ease interest rates.
> 
> During a speech at the West Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Ms Gillard said running a budget surplus laid at the "very heart of good economic management".



http://www.abc.net.au/news/


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> During a speech at the West Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Ms Gillard said running a budget surplus laid at the "very heart of good economic management".



Doesnt this shoot down Labors arguments on Howard running a surplus.


----------



## noco

For gawd sake, will someone tell this socialist left wing fabian society Prime Minister or ours to stop being wayward with the truth.
Andrew Bolt has exposed her speech in Perth about how good Perter Costello had it with government income.
Check out the link for comparison during the past decade.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/gillards_excuses/


----------



## Logique

sails said:


> Interesting - thanks Logique!  After nearly getting sucked in with GetUp some time back thinking they were genuinely wanting to give people a voice with their petitions and nearly provided them with my email, I decided to see who this Timothy Andrews is that is running this new organisation.
> Here is some information I found on him and it seems he is pretty genuine - will see what else I can find out about him.....



Cheers Sailsy. TA's background looks ok to me. I've signed up on their notification page, 11 days, 12 hrs...


----------



## IFocus

noco said:


> For gawd sake, will someone tell this socialist left wing fabian society Prime Minister or ours to stop being wayward with the truth.
> Andrew Bolt has exposed her speech in Perth about how good Perter Costello had it with government income.
> Check out the link for comparison during the past decade.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/gillards_excuses/




How much did Costello sell Telstra for again ?

About the same cost of a NBN to replace a rooted copper net work!


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> How much did Costello sell Telstra for again ?
> 
> About the same cost of a NBN to replace a rooted copper net work!



I never thought I'd see the day that you would pay a Coalition politician (former in this case) a complement, but there it is.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> How much did Costello sell Telstra for again ?
> 
> About the same cost of a NBN to replace a rooted copper net work!




Why did they have to sell it again?
Labors lack of control


----------



## Eager

bellenuit said:


> There is something genuinely un-Australian and offensive about the idea that when you disagree with someone's politics you confront them physically and abusively.



Substitute and for or...happens here all the time, unfortunately...


----------



## wayneL

Eager said:


> Substitute and for or...happens here all the time, unfortunately...




Hardly Eager. 

Robust debate is not abuse because it offends your bias. There are a few toenails over the line from either side, but relatively rare.


----------



## Eager

wayneL said:


> Hardly Eager.
> 
> Robust debate is not abuse because it offends your bias. There are a few toenails over the line from either side, but relatively rare.



Yes, I actually know that, believe it or not. I'm just not sure that certain others do.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Lets see if the RBA does what they want to do or what Labor wants -



The government's assault and goading of the RBA in the last few days is pretty pathetic.  Certainly won't influence the RBA.



Eager said:


> Yes, I actually know that, believe it or not. I'm just not sure that certain others do.




Oh, the lack of insight.


----------



## noco

Could this be the start of the big shake up in Canberra we have all been waiting for. Lets hope there is one a bit closer next time.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...west-of-canberra/story-e6freooo-1226334072714


----------



## drsmith

Postpone your retierment kiddies.

Superannuation is going to be hit.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...annuation-breaks/story-fn59nsif-1226333826995

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...nuation-industry/story-e6frgac6-1226334094096


----------



## Intrinsic Value

drsmith said:


> Postpone your retierment kiddies.
> 
> Superannuation is going to be hit.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...annuation-breaks/story-fn59nsif-1226333826995
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...nuation-industry/story-e6frgac6-1226334094096




It wont be long before they take it all or make a ruling that you cant access your super until you are 80 and then only as an annuity which you lose when you die.


----------



## wayneL

drsmith said:


> Postpone your retierment kiddies.
> 
> Superannuation is going to be hit.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...annuation-breaks/story-fn59nsif-1226333826995
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...nuation-industry/story-e6frgac6-1226334094096




It's obvious that it's too big a pot of easy cash for the bastids to not get there stinkin' grubby little fingers into. It will only get worse.


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> How much did Costello sell Telstra for again ?
> 
> About the same cost of a NBN to replace a rooted copper net work!




And why did the Howard Government have to sell off Telstra?

To help pay off Labor's bad debt they left the Coalition.Mmmmmmm!!!!


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Intrinsic Value said:


> It wont be long before they take it all or make a ruling that you cant access your super until you are 80 and then only as an annuity which you lose when you die.




This can't last (will have to go the same way as the carbon and mining taxes and the crazy NBN).  

We'll have to put up with it from 1 July 2012 onwards for 2 FYs (they wouldn't dare bring it in on budget night with retrospective legislation).  

When they get turfed out in late 2013, the May 2014 budget will hopefully restore the capacity of the Aussies who can to again make their way as self-finded retirees.

Until then, keep that spare cash stuffed in your pillow case or something.


----------



## MrBurns

wayneL said:


> It's obvious that it's too big a pot of easy cash for the bastids to not get there stinkin' grubby little fingers into. It will only get worse.




Well said


----------



## Calliope

bellenuit said:


> ... you can subscribe for a 1 month free trial to the Australian Digital Version at the moment. That is how I have access and it is the second free trial I have been given.




The subscription is dirt cheap at $11.80 a month. For anyone who wants to keep informed on the continuing corruption of the Gillard government it is a must. The best advertisement for the Oz is that Gillard, Brown and Conroy (Minister for Communications) want to censor it.


----------



## drsmith

wayneL said:


> It's obvious that it's too big a pot of easy cash for the bastids to not get there stinkin' grubby little fingers into. It will only get worse.



I don't fundamentally agree with the tax breaks offered for super as it weakens and complicates the tax base. Any reductions however should be on the basis of broader tax reform, and in particular, reductions of marginal tax rates.

What you say though is true and both sides of politics have been guilty of this.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Postpone your retierment kiddies.
> 
> Superannuation is going to be hit.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...annuation-breaks/story-fn59nsif-1226333826995
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...nuation-industry/story-e6frgac6-1226334094096



 Would you mind doing a copy and paste?
My details are not being accepted on The Australian's Log in.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Would you mind doing a copy and paste?
> My details are not being accepted on The Australian's Log in.



Try this way. 

http://news.google.com.au/news/stor...sult&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQqgIwAA
Might only work once. Alternatively, one of the articles is here,

http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2012/04/20/472065_latest-news.html

There's 5 measures outlined, the biggie being an increase in the 15% tax rate on super contributions and earnings from higher income earners.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> The subscription is dirt cheap at $11.80 a month. For anyone who wants to keep informed on the continuing corruption of the Gillard government it is a must. The best advertisement for the Oz is that Gillard, Brown and Conroy (Minister for Communications) want to censor it.




The News Media Council set up by former Federal Court of Australia Judge Ray Finkelstein QC has handed down his report designed to protect Gillard and Thomson.

This is a must read and make sure you click on the source.

This is truly scary stuff to say the least. 

http://www.australianclimatemadness...ions-would-make-any-communist-dictator-proud/


----------



## noco

noco said:


> The News Media Council set up by former Federal Court of Australia Judge Ray Finkelstein QC has handed down his report designed to protect Gillard and Thomson.
> 
> This is a must read and make sure you click on the source.
> 
> This is truly scary stuff to say the least.
> 
> http://www.australianclimatemadness...ions-would-make-any-communist-dictator-proud/




What a tangled web that exists between the unions and the Labor Party. I cannot understand why Gillard has not been caught up in it.

Herewith more to digest as to what really goes on and in particular the affidavit of Bob Kernonhan relating to Bruce Wilson and the AWU.

How this has not attracted a Royal Commission I will never know.



http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...d-and-the-bob-kernohan-statutory-declaration/


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Try this way.
> 
> http://news.google.com.au/news/stor...sult&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQqgIwAA
> Might only work once. Alternatively, one of the articles is here,
> 
> http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2012/04/20/472065_latest-news.html
> 
> There's 5 measures outlined, the biggie being an increase in the 15% tax rate on super contributions and earnings from higher income earners.



Thank you, drsmith.  I get hardcopy of The Australian home delivered several days a week but not Fridays.  Have read the details in your new thread.
If they go ahead with this, they will be inviting further electoral oblivion.
People are absolutely ****ing over having the Super rules altered, especially when it's for such a blatant tax grab.


----------



## Intrinsic Value

Julia said:


> Thank you, drsmith.  I get hardcopy of The Australian home delivered several days a week but not Fridays.  Have read the details in your new thread.
> If they go ahead with this, they will be inviting further electoral oblivion.
> People are absolutely ****ing over having the Super rules altered, especially when it's for such a blatant tax grab.




The problem is that once they bring in the legislation i doubt whether the Libs will repeal it.

Once it is in it is in.


----------



## joea

Well it's pretty clear that Gillard operates by scare campaigns.

First she scares the voter (family home saga), then pretends she has solved the problem.(that was not there)
Headline in weekend Australian.
"Labor's promise to elderly: your family home is safe."

"There is a super saga as well."

Surely the voter is not being conned by this new game she is playing. (partly break it, then fix it.) She is just creating pretend fixes to appeal to the public.

NBN truths have been revealed by Telstra. 
"Truth is rarely pure and never simple" (Oscar Wilde)

Well I am going with a Federal Election this year to create more news.
State, Local and Federal elections all in the same year. That is the headline I am looking for.
May as well get it all sorted at once, then we can get on with our lives.
"The idea of an election is much more interesting to me than the election itself.... The act of voting is in itself  the defining moment." (Jeff Melvoin)

There will be more joy in Cairns getting rid of the current Mayor. In a weeks time
joea


----------



## MrBurns

I called my stockbroker and asked him what I should be buying?

He said, "If the current government is in office much longer - tinned food, a generator,
water, and ammunition, are your best bets."


----------



## drsmith

Peter Slipper today showed more judgement than the inept government he's been propping up.

While Wayne Swan was standing by their man (Insiders) and Julia Gillard was mute, Peter Slipper fell on his own sword.


----------



## joea

Well I think the vote on the budget will be interesting!
With the Greens supporting Gillard, the independents will be squirming.
What they will have to balance is their future in politics.
Should they vote with the coalition and hope to be re-elected, or ride it out.?
Will they crack? I bet their electronic  communication gadgets will stay very warm in the next couple of weeks.
joea


----------



## Calliope

Gillard and her offspring, FWA, Slipper and Thomson are all innocent until proven guilty. That they stink to high heaven and are figures of ridicule doesn't worry her in the slightest.

What a hippocrite. Here she is honouring war dead in Singapore. Honouring???


----------



## joea

Well I have to give her credit on her fashion this time.(previous post)
I think her outfit suits her.
Now there!! I have said something nice about the woman!!
joea


----------



## drsmith

Seething ??



> An angry and frustrated independent MP Rob Oakeshott has warned the Gillard *government that he will not support plans to rush Peter Slipper back into the Speaker’s chair before he is cleared of all allegations of fraud and sexual *harassment.
> 
> *Mr Oakeshott, one of three crossbenchers supporting the government, told The Australian Financial Review he was “seething” over assurances that Labor had given him late last year in relation to rumours *concerning Mr Slipper.* He said he was open to supporting a no-confidence motion against the Speaker.
> 
> Senior ministers Craig Emerson and Anthony Albanese have made it clear the government is prepared to take the political risk of having Mr Slipper return to the Speaker’s job before all the allegations against him have been tested in order to get tough budget measures passed by *Parliament.



Andrew Wilkie will now be relieved. He has company in the idiot box.

http://afr.com/p/national/threat_to_block_slipper_return_ZgpStRdkov6gTNaV1qHOFP


----------



## Calliope

As well as having a fine dress sense, she also has fine speaking voice.


----------



## sails

joea said:


> Well I have to give her credit on her fashion this time.(previous post)
> I think her outfit suits her.
> Now there!! I have said something nice about the woman!!
> joea




Yeah she looks so innocent there which belies the Gillard who seems to deceive at any opportunity depending on her own agenda...lol

Pity the hat doesn't lift her off into space though...


----------



## MrBurns

Nicola Rocksoff on Lateline last night could talk the leg off a chair, if I had a dollar for every time she said the word "allegation" I'd be a billionaire.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> I called my stockbroker and asked him what I should be buying?



Why aren't you capable of making your own decisions?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

The Gillard government is responsible for an enormous loss of value in the portfolios of all Australians.

Just compare the XJO to the DJIA  since her ascendancy.

Should she and her cohort of muppets be booted out the XJO would leap by 15-20 % I believe.






This is a muppet government bleeding Australians dry, that has spent the Howard/Costello surplus on muppet projects and ideological circuses.

gg


----------



## Eager

There is no denying that chart - a reflection of history.  

Why people wake up in the morning determined to be negative is beyond me.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Eager said:


> There is no denying that chart - a reflection of history.
> 
> Why people wake up in the morning determined to be negative is beyond me.




Mate I understand your pain.

Many of my mates are ALP stalwarts.

The Federal ALP just lost it. Lost sight of their base and ideals. Got conned by the greens, trendies and latte's.

A generation of workers have switched to the Lib/Nats. That is a fact.

gg


----------



## Julia

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The Federal ALP just lost it. Lost sight of their base and ideals. Got conned by the greens, trendies and latte's.



Perhaps.  I'd say rather that Labor voters got conned by a PM who was motivated entirely by self interest, caring not at all what her power hungry decisions did to the electorate and all people of good faith.

When she is eventually cast out, I can think of no more appropriate justice.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Julia said:


> Perhaps.  I'd say rather that Labor voters got conned by a PM who was motivated entirely by self interest, caring not at all what her power hungry decisions did to the electorate and all people of good faith.
> 
> When she is eventually cast out, I can think of no more appropriate justice.




Not really expecting a gracious exit speech here, just to make sure the Gillard legacy trashing is complete...


----------



## Calliope

It probably seemed like good idea at the time.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> It probably seemed like good idea at the time.



Political cartoon of the year.


----------



## MrBurns

Bill Shorten on 7:30, a mummy's boy if ever there was one, a complete dud.

Stephen Conroy on TV today, a borderline simpleton, 

The Gillard Labor front bench are collectively the most shockingly inadequate bunch of witless buffoons I've ever seen.


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Bill Shorten on 7:30, a mummy's boy if ever there was one, a complete dud.
> 
> Stephen Conroy on TV today, a borderline simpleton,
> 
> The Gillard Labor front bench are collectively the most shockingly inadequate bunch of witless buffoons I've ever seen.




Your being too kind.
(Its amazing how in one point in history that a government has so many "witless buffoons")


----------



## sails

MrBurns said:


> Bill Shorten on 7:30, a mummy's boy if ever there was one, a complete dud.
> 
> Stephen Conroy on TV today, a borderline simpleton,
> 
> The Gillard Labor front bench are collectively the most shockingly inadequate bunch of witless buffoons I've ever seen.




Posted this in the wrong thread - meant to post it here:

Here's a video of Bill Shorten who says he supports the PM's comments on Peter Slipper, but doesn't know what they are:

http://video.news.com.au/2227300814/Shorten-supports-PM-on-Slipper?area=videoindex1


----------



## Miss Hale

sails said:


> Posted this in the wrong thread - meant to post it here:
> 
> Here's a video of Bill Shorten who says he supports the PM's comments on Peter Slipper, but doesn't know what they are:
> 
> http://video.news.com.au/2227300814/Shorten-supports-PM-on-Slipper?area=videoindex1




That was a classic wasn't it! (why isn't there a 'LOL' smiley? ).  He really got caught out there, this government is falling apart at the seams.


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Here's a video of Bill Shorten who says he supports the PM's comments on Peter Slipper, but doesn't know what they are:



Good heavens. 

That's a shocker.

He could have least done his homework before going to that interview. The dog must have ate it.

The interviewer said fair enough at the end. That's even worse.


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> The interviewer said fair enough at the end. That's even worse.




Maybe he was in shock.


----------



## Julia

This comes on top of his embarrassing assertion that the RBA meets on every *second* Tuesday of the month, rather than the first Tuesday, something he even repeated in the same interview.

Perhaps it's a sign of the stress government members are under.

So much for the future Prime Minister!


----------



## Miss Hale

And I thought it was just Bob Brown that was losing his marbles....


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> And I thought it was just Bob Brown that was losing his marbles....




Does anyone else sense an impending collapse of the Gillard Govt ?


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> This comes on top of his embarrassing assertion that the RBA meets on every *second* Tuesday of the month, rather than the first Tuesday, something he even repeated in the same interview.
> 
> Perhaps it's a sign of the stress government members are under.
> 
> So much for the future Prime Minister!





Here is what Shorten said AFTER mocking Abbott's mistake:



> BILL SHORTEN: We all make mistakes but when you want to be the alternative Prime Minister of Australia, interest rates is just such an important issue and the Reserve Bank board has been meeting on the second Tuesday of the month since 1960, according to the RBA archives.
> 
> It's been meeting on the second Tuesday of the month since 1960.




LOL... for you Miss Hale...

If Shorten wasn't so hell bent on his fixation with Abbott, he likely wouldn't have made such a fool of himself!

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3488236.htm


----------



## sails

MrBurns said:


> Does anyone else sense an impending collapse of the Gillard Govt ?




Can only hope, MrBurns...


----------



## Miss Hale

sails said:


> Can only hope, MrBurns...




They way they aired their dirty linen during the Rudd challenge convinced me that they are hanging on by a thread and could implode from internal ructions at any moment.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> They way they aired their dirty linen during the Rudd challenge convinced me that they are hanging on by a thread and could implode from internal ructions at any moment.




I think that moment is almost upon them, the media will give Shorten hell over is gaff tonight and the RBA gaff then add on Slipper, it's all spiraling out of control or so it seems.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Does anyone else sense an impending collapse of the Gillard Govt ?




Yes! Many do!
However it is very difficult to put a time frame to it!!
As witnessed many times before, Gillard is a real battler!!!

One would think the report of FWA has the answers, but it appears to be under a "collapsed scrum."
The administrator now has the say if it will be released.
One wonders who will be behind the appointment of that person.
joea


----------



## dutchie

I table a Motion of no Confidence in this Prime Minister and the Labor Government.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> I table a Motion of no Confidence in this Prime Minister and the Labor Government.




+22,000,000


----------



## Calliope

It's not surprising that these two ratbags are so arrogant. They know that they have Gillard by the short and curlies. They hold the labor government's future in their hands.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

I didn't take much notice when this little snippet of news came across my screen, but was Thomson one of the 31 Rudd votes in the February leadership vote?

That surely had to be a shot across the bow of the "good ship Gillard"?  

No one in the Labor Caucus would have believed Rudd would have even been close but if Thomson were saying to Gillard: "You fail to pre-select me for Dobell and I'm outta here", then he would do it by being one of the 31 votes?


----------



## noco

StumpyPhantom said:


> I didn't take much notice when this little snippet of news came across my screen, but was Thomson one of the 31 Rudd votes in the February leadership vote?
> 
> That surely had to be a shot across the bow of the "good ship Gillard"?
> 
> No one in the Labor Caucus would have believed Rudd would have even been close but if Thomson were saying to Gillard: "You fail to pre-select me for Dobell and I'm outta here", then he would do it by being one of the 31 votes?




Yes, it is my understanding Thomson was a Rudd supporter.


----------



## joea

Sportsbet has Rudd and Shorten both on $4 for PM.
Bob is not on the list yet.
joea


----------



## Calliope

Three faces of corruption;


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> Sportsbet has Rudd and Shorten both on $4 for PM.
> Bob is not on the list yet.
> joea




Rudd's odds will SHORTEN, Shorten has no RUDDer and CARR will just BOB up and down


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> Rudd's odds will SHORTEN, Shorten has no RUDDer and CARR will just BOB up and down




+1
joea


----------



## drsmith

Miss Hale said:


> Maybe he was in shock.



Quiet possible.

It's also possible that Bill Shorten is so unhappy with Julia Gillard's handling of the Speaker issue that he lashed out.

Watching the interview again, he didn't look very happy.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Quiet possible.
> 
> It's also possible that Bill Shorten is so unhappy with Julia Gillard's handling of the Speaker issue that he lashed out.
> 
> Watching the interview again, he didn't look very happy.




Geez Doc, the wheels have got to fall off soon. How much longer can Gillard and her government survive.

She is like a cat with 9 lives. I think she has just experienced her 8th.


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard lost her last political life long ago.

She's now the standing dead propped up by her own party and the Labor alligned independents. They are all wedged firmly between a rock and a hard place.

I can't see Oakshott/Windsor/Wilkie handing the Coalition government, so it will be the prop from within her own party that finally lets her rotting political corpse fall in a futile attempt to purge the government of its stench.

Judging by Bill Shorten's display last week, we may not have much longer to wait, but Julia Gillard being knocked over as PM brings us no closer to an election.


----------



## drsmith

Laurie Oakes sums up Julia Gillard's situation within her own party brilliantly.

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles...?from=scroller&pos=1&referrer=home&link=image



> The PM with her supporters on the Slipper issue this week… Picture: Sam Mooy


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I came across this cartoon in PUNCH.

http://www.thepunch.com.au/

It says it all.






gg


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> It's also possible that Bill Shorten is so unhappy with Julia Gillard's handling of the Speaker issue that he lashed out.
> 
> Watching the interview again, he didn't look very happy.



Yes, he was clearly very stressed and uncomfortable.
I've never been able to understand why he has been touted as a future PM.



drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard lost her last political life long ago.
> 
> She's now the standing dead propped up by her own party and the Labor alligned independents. They are all wedged firmly between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> I can't see Oakshott/Windsor/Wilkie handing the Coalition government, so it will be the prop from within her own party that finally lets her rotting political corpse fall in a futile attempt to purge the government of its stench.



I'm not so sure about that.   Interviews I've heard with Windsor and Oakeshott in the last couple of days have indicated they are pretty disgusted over the Slipper issue.
And Andrew Wilkie has made it clear that if Slipper resumes the role of Speaker before all issues are cleared, he will either support or institute a no confidence motion.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> I can't see Oakshott/Windsor/Wilkie handing the Coalition government, so it will be the prop from within her own party that finally lets her rotting political corpse fall in a futile attempt to purge the government of its stench.




You are right Doc. Those three opportunists will never commit political suicide by voting against the interests of Gillard. Gillard, Slipper, Thomson  and the three stooges are all in the same boat. They will sink or swim together. They will be desperate to have the government run full term, and hope for a miracle in the meantime.


----------



## MrBurns

If they had any brains they would admit they were wrong and jump ship now, thats their only hope of being re elected.


----------



## IFocus

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I came across this cartoon in PUNCH.
> 
> http://www.thepunch.com.au/
> 
> It says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gg




Seen it also very clever had a good laugh.


----------



## MrBurns

> Embattled Thomson leaves Labor party
> 
> Embattled Labor MP Craig Thomson has announced he will leave the party and sit on the crossbenches as an independent.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-29/craig-thomson-leaves-labor-party/3978614


----------



## Knobby22

They missed Craig Thompson in the cartoon, very funny.


----------



## Calliope

So Thomson will sit on the crossbenches as an Independent. He has now found his correct niche among the misfits, turncoats and opportunists all serving their last term. They will soon be joined by Slipper.

There is little doubt this sleazy crew will keep the Gillard government in power. She has confidence in them all.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Calliope said:


> So Thomson will sit on the crossbenches as an Independent. He has now found his correct niche among the misfits, turncoats and opportunists all serving their last term. They will soon be joined by Slipper.
> 
> There is little doubt this sleazy crew will keep the Gillard government in power. She has confidence in them all.




Just saw the last 10 minutes of the Gillard presss conference.  Apparently, she has taken this decision now because "something" has crossed the line so far as the integrity of the Parliament is concerned.

Why now?  Is it so transparent that everything she does, she does to save her skin?


----------



## Julia

StumpyPhantom said:


> Why now?  Is it so transparent that everything she does, she does to save her skin?



 Yes.   But she is apparently still believing she can convince the electorate otherwise.

If they replace her with Stephen Smith as has been suggested, they're going to look awfully silly if there's no lift in the polls.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> Yes.   But she is apparently still believing she can convince the electorate otherwise.
> 
> If they replace her with Stephen Smith as has been suggested, they're going to look awfully silly if there's no lift in the polls.




Smith is already toxic imo, they wouldn't get the lift they are after. 
Guess who is dusting off his colloquialisms


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> Smith is already toxic imo, they wouldn't get the lift they are after.
> Guess who is dusting off his colloquialisms




Smith is a dud always looks scared.
They only have one alternative if they change.


----------



## joea

So what did the PM achieve today?
Craig Thompson is on the cross bench! He will still vote Labor.
Pete is on a paid holiday until the accusations are cleared. He is happy!
Media time was taken up.
Craig pointed out he was in control.
Julia pointed out she was in control.
The viewers realised nobody is in control.
What was achieved. NOTHING!!!. Business as usual.
joea


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> So what did the PM achieve today?




She successfully perplexed us all by telling us that 'a line was crossed'.  The use of the phrase aside, isn't it blindingly clear that she's done it because the STENCH was now overwhelming?


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> She successfully perplexed us all by telling us that 'a line was crossed'.  The use of the phrase aside, isn't it blindingly clear that she's done it because the STENCH was now overwhelming?




The public are well and truly onto her now she wont get away with any more spin.....it's over.


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> The public are well and truly onto her now she wont get away with any more spin.....it's over.




The public was well and truly over it months ago. It's just one thing after the other with the list being so long that you can't even remember it all. People are just switching off from anything political.


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> The public was well and truly over it months ago. It's just one thing after the other with the list being so long that you can't even remember it all. People are just switching off from anything political.




Whats happening now is multiple nails in the Labor coffin and to be honest I'm enjoying it, she has been a thorn in the side for so long it's good to see her get what she deserves.


----------



## noco

It is a pity the Governor General is a Labor supporter and is Bill Shorten's mother-in-law, she might have had the balls to desolve parliament and call a general election.
I guess under the circumstances she has little choice but grin and bare it!!


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> It is a pity the Governor General is a Labor supporter and is Bill Shorten's mother-in-law, she might have had the balls to desolve parliament and call a general election.
> I guess under the circumstances she has little choice but grin and bare it!!




She would have to so what is "right" regardless of her wimpy son in law.


----------



## sptrawler

Well over here in the cold and miserable mother country, the only thing mentioned has been an interview with Bill Shorten. They kept replaying the part where he sounds like a mindless goon who can't think for himself when asked a question.
All he kept repeating was ,I agree with whatever the Prime Minister has to say on any issue whether it is right or wrong.
The interviewer was amused by it and didn't let it go, Shorten came over very badly.
There must be a real cicus going on over there.


----------



## MrBurns

This would no doubt apply to all states - 



> Victorian Premier Ted Baillieu has linked his state's economic woes to the ongoing political turmoil in Canberra.
> 
> Mr Baillieu made the remarks during his keynote speech to the Liberal Party's Victorian Council Meeting.
> 
> He says the state is facing enormous economic challenges, and Canberra is partly to blame.
> 
> "The mining tax, superannuation changes, industrial relations paralysis, occupational health and safety, gaming law reform - so much uncertainty - and there's fiscal uncertainty as well," he said.
> 
> "There is uncertainty that is impacting on all jurisdictions, and it's coming from Canberra."




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-29/baillieu-says-challenges-stem-from-federal-turmoil/3979066


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> I guess under the circumstances she has little choice but grin and bare it!!




I hope she doesn't *bare* it. I don't think I could bear it. What a sight.


----------



## drsmith

What has forced Gillard Labor back to the last line of defence ?

The obvious response is that the FWA investigation into the HSU will be sufficiently negative towards Craig Thompson as to warrant this shambolic retreat. 

It is of course token as the government will still be counting his vote. 

The Labor alligned independents will face some tough choices in the not to distant future.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> What has forced Gillard Labor back to the last line of defence ?
> 
> The obvious response is that the FWA investigation into the HSU will be sufficiently negative towards Craig Thompson as to warrant this shambolic retreat.
> 
> It is of course token as the government will still be counting his vote.
> 
> The Labor alligned independents will face some tough choices in the not to distant future.




She had to be seen to be doing something, this Govt is on it's last legs, get ready for an early election.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

drsmith said:


> The obvious response is that the FWA investigation into the HSU will be sufficiently negative towards Craig Thompson as to warrant this shambolic retreat.




This is eminently plausible.  It seems to fit the language of 'having crossed the line".

I'm still having trouble visualising how the early election will eventuate though.  All of the independents and cross benchers have more reason to avoid the 'no confidence' vote than to vote in favour of it.


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> This is eminently plausible.  It seems to fit the language of 'having crossed the line".
> 
> I'm still having trouble visualising how the early election will eventuate though.  All of the independents and cross benchers have more reason to avoid the 'no confidence' vote than to vote in favour of it.




I just have the feeling that things are so bad something's got to break.....soon.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I just have the feeling that things are so bad something's got to break.....soon.



That point could be when the prospect of a legacy stained with the stench of the current government becomes too much for the independents.

A very real possibility now after the events of the past 24 hours.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> That point could be when the prospect of a legacy stained with the stench of the current government becomes too much for one or more of the independents.
> 
> A very real possibility now after the events of the past 24 hours.




I've been saying that for a while, at some point one of them may decide that to side with the majority of public opinion and withdraw support will give them a better chance at retaining their own seat....and it would.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> I just have the feeling that things are so bad something's got to break.....soon.




Probably a blood vessel in Wayne Swan's forehead, because it is all about him in the next week!!
joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> Probably a blood vessel in Wayne Swan's forehead, because it is all about him in the next week!!
> joea




If the budget is a balls up and let's face it thats possible, that would signal the end, Windsor would be first to jump I think.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> What has forced Gillard Labor back to the last line of defence ?
> 
> The obvious response is that the FWA investigation into the HSU will be sufficiently negative towards Craig Thompson as to warrant this shambolic retreat.



Yes, that's how I see it also.  They know what's in the dreaded report so the government thinks the electorate is stupid enough to swallow the line which will inevitably be trotted out when the **** hits the fan:

"The government will not tolerate any member behaving inappropriately, whether such inappropriate action is criminal or otherwise.  We have therefore removed Mr Thomson from the Party".

or something along those lines.

Ditto Slipper now enjoying a taxpayer funded holiday because the government knows he's going to come unstuck at long last.
They will conveniently forget all the cabinet ministers who said he was entitled to the presumption of innocence.

Such nauseating presumption that the electorate does not see through their pathetic machinations.


----------



## Sean K

MrBurns said:


> If the budget is a balls up.



It's a balls up if it's successful, IMO. The balance is being shifted too far, too fast.


----------



## MrBurns

kennas said:


> it's a balls up if it's successful IMO. The balance is being shifted too far too fast.




Thats right they're fixated on a surplus and what will be sacrificed will be very interesting.


----------



## Sean K

MrBurns said:


> Thats right they're fixated on a surplus and what will be sacrificed will be very interesting.



That's what the Australian people have asked for in their judgement. A 'surplus'. That seems to be the sum of our understanding of how to get out of the GFC.


----------



## MrBurns

kennas said:


> That's what the Australian people have asked for in their judgement. A 'surplus'. That seems to be the sum of our understanding of how to get out of the GFC.




I don't think the public gives a hoot about a surplus but Gillard and co think they
cant afford another broken promise
Bit late for that now


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Thats right they're fixated on a surplus and what will be sacrificed will be very interesting.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...plus-fetish-20120329-1w19n.html#ixzz1qZhbkjH5

joea


----------



## StumpyPhantom

drsmith said:


> What has forced Gillard Labor back to the last line of defence ?
> 
> The obvious response is that the FWA investigation into the HSU will be sufficiently negative towards Craig Thompson as to warrant this shambolic retreat.




If this is true (and most of us think that there is no other explanation), then Gillard has told another white lie at her Sunday morning press conference when she was asked whether she had seen the FWA report and she said she had not.

In the overall scheme of things it's not a big lie, I suppose but it just shows that when deception is at the core of what you do, the lies just have to keep building.

You can't really cure this.  The whole lot has to go and Labor just has to start again.


----------



## Klogg

For those that didn't see this, go to the bottom of the page and view the video (sound required).

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...nister-takes-brown-nosing-to-a-new-level.html

All I can say is LOL


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> In the overall scheme of things it's not a big lie, I suppose but it just shows that when deception is at the core of what you do, the lies just have to keep building.




"The best liar is he/she who makes the smallest amount of lying go the longest way".
Samuel Baker (1835 - 1902.)

joea


----------



## dutchie

Julias'  Manifesto:

There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead and I will cling to power no matter what I have to do or what it costs (Australia).


----------



## dutchie

This government and the Independents(??) that support it are looking treasonous to Australia and Australians.

Australia is going down the gurgler just so they can cling to power - shame on them.


----------



## MrBurns

It's now not about us, not about Australia, not even about the Labor party it's about Gillard, a self centered selfish back stabber who will do anything to stay in power.

When she spoke of Thompson and said it was about doing the right thing and a line was crossed it was patently clear from her expression that she was mouthing the words but couldn't perceive of their meaning.


----------



## joea

Put this here as it refers to our economy.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/weak...sing-us-corporate-concern-20120429-1xszm.html
joea


----------



## Logique

joea said:


> Put this here as it refers to our economy.
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/weak...sing-us-corporate-concern-20120429-1xszm.html
> joea



Nice article Joea. It takes the overseas commentator with no skin in the political game to tell us some home truths. 

So the slowing in Australia has caught them by surprise. How do they think we feel! New taxes on production (MRRT) and consumption (carbon 'pricing'), yet our national debt is still spiralling into record territory. Not much talk of $900 for a plasma tv in this latest budget.

Is it any wonder shoppers have a recessionary mindset!


----------



## MrBurns

> Mining magnate Clive Palmer to seek LNP pre-selection in Treasurer Wayne Swan's federal seat of Lilley



This is becoming farcical, it's better then any sitcom on TV.


----------



## drsmith

It looks like Fairfax has disowned Jullia Gillard.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics


----------



## MrBurns

Election mid year ?

Looking like it, she's not giving interviews today, probably seeing what else is left to keep her in the job, she may even alter the carbon tax implementation, let's face it no matter what she does she's finished and she's taken Labor down with her........not that there was anyone else to lead that dodgy pack of incompetents...

Election mid year ?


----------



## MrBurns

The election is a forgone conclusion but lets look beyond that, the good ship Australia is heading for the rocks and I'm not sure much can be done about it.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> ......she may even alter the carbon tax implementation......



I saw some speculation about this in the SMH late yesterday evening, but can't find it this morning. 

Beyond the fringes, I suspect they're dreaming.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> I saw some speculation about this in the SMH late yesterday evening, but can't find it this morning.
> 
> Beyond the fringes, I suspect they're dreaming.




I think you're right, she cant possibly back down on that now, she might however try to vary it to make it easier to swallow ???........but no, anything she does will be seen as a panic move.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

MrBurns said:


> I think you're right, she cant possibly back down on that now, she might however try to vary it to make it easier to swallow ???........but no, anything she does will be seen as a panic move.




Gillard can only try to vary it, but the attempts will fail.

Guess what - the Greens will flatly oppose (they would rather take their chances with a double dissolution threat from Abbott post-2014), and the Coalition will say the only variance they will accept is total repeal.

Wedged again like the Malaysia Solution fix.


----------



## joea

Logique said:


> Is it any wonder shoppers have a recessionary mindset!




Yes I think the shoppers are wondering how much more trouble is coming.
The problem is the shoppers are losing jobs as well.

By June about 55,000 of our top dairy cows will have been sold to China.
All the overseas countries are investing in Australia to have some sort of guaranteed 
food supply for the future.
In Australia our fearless leaders are just taking it one "quarter" at a time, because that is what produces the statistics. (i.e. shortsighted).
joea


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> It looks like Fairfax has disowned Jullia Gillard.
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics



From, wait for it...Michelle Grattan, who calls for the PM to step down: 







> Credibility gone, PM should fall on her sword April 30, 2012...
> ...If Labor had any functioning party elders, they would be advising Gillard to consider the good of the party and relinquish the leadership gracefully. That would lead Labor down another fraught path, but it could hardly be worse off than now.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...n-her-sword-20120429-1xt3a.html#ixzz1tTzN4umZ


----------



## StumpyPhantom

This is starting to SNOWBALL.

I'm surprised Gillard hasn't barricaded herself in ABC studios whilst awaiting Stephen Smith's order to the army to mobilise to take effect (oh - that's right Smithy's stood the lot of them down).


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> This is starting to SNOWBALL.
> 
> I'm surprised Gillard hasn't barricaded herself in ABC studios whilst awaiting Stephen Smith's order to the army to mobilise to take effect (oh - that's right Smithy's stood the lot of them down).




I heard she isnt giving interviews today...


----------



## joea

Hot!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...t-the-leadership/story-fn53lw5p-1226342178692

joea ...I gotta do some work in yard, and stop fooling around here.


----------



## Calliope

Thomson says Julia still has confidence in him.







http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...omen-must-topple/story-fn8qlm5e-1226342051350


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Nice article Joea. It takes the overseas commentator with no skin in the political game to tell us some home truths.
> 
> So the slowing in Australia has caught them by surprise. How do they think we feel! New taxes on production (MRRT) and consumption (carbon 'pricing'), yet our national debt is still spiralling into record territory. Not much talk of $900 for a plasma tv in this latest budget.
> 
> Is it any wonder shoppers have a recessionary mindset!



The objectivity of that article is something the government should heed.

So much focus on the interest rate decision tomorrow.   I might be quite wrong but I don't see even a 50 basis point cut making much difference.

Imo a greater boost to the economy and to overall national confidence would be the wiping of the carbon tax, preferably along with the government calling an election.

There was a report on ABC radio this morning that - since the change of government in Queensland - confidence has returned to pre-GFC levels.



drsmith said:


> It looks like Fairfax has disowned Jullia Gillard.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics



Wow, some damning stuff there, especially Michelle Grattan's  remarks.



drsmith said:


> I saw some speculation about this in the SMH late yesterday evening, but can't find it this morning.
> 
> Beyond the fringes, I suspect they're dreaming.



Greg Combet was asked about the suggested modification of the carbon tax on Radio National this morning.  He denied it.
Not that that means anything.


----------



## Calliope

Apparently Julia thinks that the vast majority of Queenslanders who gutted the state Labor party are supporters of the "privileged few." Actually they were working Australians.



> I will be leading the Labor Party to the next election and I can tell you very clearly now what that election will be about," Ms Gillard said.
> 
> "It will be about who you stand for, whether you stand for the privileged few or whether you stand for working Australians and their families."




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...lards-leadership/story-fn59niix-1226342807723


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> I just have the feeling that things are so bad something's got to break.....soon.




Where some of the money went from HSU.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/thomson-l...where-union-millions-went-20120430-1xuq6.html

joea


----------



## Logique

Those of you who signed up will have received this email:


> Dear ----,
> 
> In just over 24 hours, we will be formally launching the *Australian Taxpayers' Alliance*: Australia's first professional grassroots activist organisation standing up for taxpayers against special interest groups. We are dedicated to fighting high taxes, over-burdensome regulation, and government waste - and we we want you to take part in our launch!
> 
> If you are unable to join us for our launch in person, we want you to join us online!
> 
> Please visit *www.taxpayers.org.au* or our facebook page at 6:30pm Sydney time tomorrow for a livestream of the entire evening (technology permitting!). You can watch the entire night from your computer screen - not just the speeches! - and  our interactive online chat will mean you can not only watch the entire event live, but you can also chat with like-minded persons else tuning in from all over Australia! And, throughout the night, you will have the opportunity to talk to participants who are physically at the launch, and hear messages from our many special guests!
> 
> The launch kicks off at *6:30pm Australian Eastern Time on Tuesday 1 May*, and we'll be setting up the livestream shortly afterwards.
> 
> I sincerely hope that you will still be able to join us online for what shall no doubt will be a very, very memorable occasion!


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> Where some of the money went from HSU.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/thomson-l...where-union-millions-went-20120430-1xuq6.html
> 
> joea




Someone should go to jail for that lot


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> So much focus on the interest rate decision tomorrow.   I might be quite wrong but I don't see even a 50 basis point cut making much difference.
> 
> Imo a greater boost to the economy and to overall national confidence would be the wiping of the carbon tax, preferably along with the government calling an election.



 You are correct Julia. Tomorrow there will be some fiscal relief, and next week Wayne Swan will tighten fiscal policy in an attempt to obtain a surplus. So what is handed out tomorrow by the RBA will be absorbed next week and then some.

On you second point. +1
joea


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Someone should go to jail for that lot



 Absolutely.  I cannot believe the massive amounts of money paid out without tender and in payments to the personal contacts (eg Williamson's holiday home).
If criminal charges are not brought amongst all this, there's something very wrong.

How must the poorly paid members of the union, the cleaners, orderlies, etc, be feeling with this disgusting abuse of their union dues?


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> So much focus on the interest rate decision tomorrow.   I might be quite wrong but I don't see even a 50 basis point cut making much difference.
> 
> Imo a greater boost to the economy and to overall national confidence would be the wiping of the carbon tax, preferably along with the government calling an election.
> .




You're right there Julia, no ones going out spending up any more, they're not going to run out and buy a house if rates drop, AND there's no guarantee the banks will pass it on anyway.

It's all too late, I think we're in for a recession, perhaps a bad one.


----------



## DB008

joea said:


> Where some of the money went from HSU.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/thomson-l...where-union-millions-went-20120430-1xuq6.html
> 
> joea




Joea, this article is also doing the round on the another tabloids with more and more coming out...
Revealed: Where the HSU millions have gone

To me, it is now very obvious that Temby QC had come across some very damaging evidence during his audit recently (late last week) and with the amount of corruption going on in the Gillard Government, someone alerted Gillard and told her what Temby QC had found leaving Julia no option other than letting Thompson go.



> In one case an IT company was paid $15,000 a month to look after the union’s computers which had an HSU official on its board while another company was actually doing the work, according to an interim report into the HSU’s finances by Ian Temby QC.






> $750,000 a year to Compugraphics Pty Ltd for printing, including $2.6 million between March 2007 and September 2011 for the union magazine.






Betting
http://sports.betfair.com/?mi=100465943&ex=2&origin=MRL&rfr=4509
Next Elected Prime Minister
Abbot - $1.16
Julia - $8


----------



## bigdog

I imagine that the independants will no longer support labour if there is a change of PM.

Their agreement is with Julia!


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> Joea, this article is also doing the round on the another tabloids with more and more coming out...
> Revealed: Where the HSU millions have gone




DB008.
Yes I think it is going to be viewed by millions here and around the world.
The PM made a decision "The right one!", just prior to the release.
I honestly believe she thinks she has exonerated herself, and the matter is "done and dusted".
There is more to come out at the end of May from the QC.

I now have this feeling that the "tentacles" of the HSU rorting will gain momentum, and possibly expose others.

Now it will be interesting to see what Shorten has to say to the voters. 
What about? 1. How he intervened at the appropriate time. 2. How he will solved these problems in the future. etc. etc.

After all Shorten backed the side that has been exposed.

Finally, I wonder what union members around Australia are thinking?
Surely this "can not be Abbott's fault".

The only thing we can be sure of, is Kathy Jackson is "one very strong women".

joea


----------



## MrBurns

Watching Greg Combet this morning , what an arrogant smug useless bastard he is, "it's Abbott stirring up a frenzy" "we have important reforms to put in place" "Julia Gillard is doing a good job" and so on ad nauseum, he has been added to my list of "those who deserve a good punch in the face" along with Simon Crean, Craig Emmerson and a number of others.

Someone should ask these creeps why they think they have a mandate to introduce a Carbon Tax when they went to the election stating the opposite, fact is they don't have a mandate to introduce such a massive change to the system, no mandate and no one wants it but they go forward as if it's their God given right to impose their personal agenda on all of us.


----------



## startrader

Calliope said:


> Apparently Julia thinks that the vast majority of Queenslanders who gutted the state Labor party are supporters of the "privileged few." Actually they were working Australians.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...lards-leadership/story-fn59niix-1226342807723




I find this comment absolutely astounding!  I saw her saying it on tv and couldn't believe my eyes and ears.  I'm sure most Australians would be interested to know that that's what the next election will be about.


----------



## moXJO

While I wasn't big on his policies, you gotta love Ruddy



> "They assassinated him, they trashed his reputation, they buried him, then they dug him up, made him foreign minister, assassinated him again, trashed his reputation again - and now we want him back?"
> Labor did such an energetic job of publicly smearing Rudd, and such an enthusiastic job of humiliating him, it might have irreparably damaged its own Plan B.
> Like most of the government's biggest problems, this is entirely self-inflicted.
> Wayne Swan said at the time of the ballot that colleagues were "sick of Kevin Rudd driving the vote down" by "sabotaging" the party. But since then, the government has lurched from one self-imposed crisis to another, and Rudd has not been anywhere near the scene.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...is-no-kevin-20120430-1xv5v.html#ixzz1tZDk1WmQ




Labor has been quick to point fingers at everyone and anyone but themselves. And they still don't get it.


----------



## DB008

joea said:


> There is more to come out at the end of May from the QC.
> 
> I now have this feeling that the "tentacles" of the HSU rorting will gain momentum, and possibly expose others.
> 
> joea




I think your right joea.
Could be more to come and Julia is trying to distance herself before real issues make headlines. This can't be a good image to portray to the rest of the world. Having said that, I don't think that they give a s**t. Greedy unions at their best...





moXJO said:


> Labor has been quick to point fingers at everyone and anyone but themselves. And they still don't get it.




I thought that one of the key characteristics of a good leader is taking responsibility for your actions, good and bad? Well, apparently not with these clowns. It's everyone else's fault, not theirs... They are called the opposition for a reason.


----------



## moXJO

DB008 said:


> I thought that one of the key characteristics of a good leader is taking responsibility for your actions, good and bad? Well, apparently not with these clowns. It's everyone else's fault, not theirs... They are called the opposition for a reason.




To be fair Swann did blame kevie for the polls (which is kind of like blaming themselves)  but was quickly proven wrong.



> Wayne Swan said at the time of the ballot that colleagues were "sick of Kevin Rudd driving the vote down" by "sabotaging" the party.


----------



## Ijustnewit

startrader said:


> I find this comment absolutely astounding!  I saw her saying it on tv and couldn't believe my eyes and ears.  I'm sure most Australians would be interested to know that that's what the next election will be about.




Exactly right Startrader , Gillard making statements like this will not win her any more friends . And what is she really trying to say ? Is the next election going to be run on the perceived rich V's against the perceived poor.


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> Watching Greg Combet this morning , what an arrogant smug useless bastard he is, "it's Abbott stirring up a frenzy" "we have important reforms to put in place" "Julia Gillard is doing a good job" and so on ad nauseum,....



Have a look at the replay of Q&A at 12:30pm today (Tues) Burnsie, there's another of that ilk, a parliamentary secretary. These are the people around the PM, it explains much. In a dream world, all of them.


----------



## dutchie

Ijustnewit said:


> Exactly right Startrader , Gillard making statements like this will not win her any more friends . And what is she really trying to say ? Is the next election going to be run on the perceived rich V's against the perceived poor.




This is an old line which has no relevance these days.

They are getting very desperate if this is the only thing they can cling to and to run an election off. Dills.


----------



## moXJO

> Small business insolvencies have reached record levels with the number of companies placed into external administration in February at the highest level since the statistics were introduced in 1999.




http://www.smartcompany.com.au/tax/049419-small-business-insolvencies-hit-record-high-as-ato-cracks-down.html?utm_source=SmartCompany&utm_campaign=5d91c65d4e-Monday_30_April_201230_04_2012&utm_medium=email

Small business has largely been ignored (or attacked) by the labor government imo.


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> Small business has largely been ignored (or attacked) by the labor government imo.




I think the housing bubble is responsible for all this, people have huge mortgages taken out in the heat of the moment encouraged by Rudd and the housing industry, now they cant service those loans easily so they stop spending, retail declines , that puts more people out of work, houses get sold up, prices decline exacerbating the problem and the cycle repeats itself.


----------



## BBBS

MrBurns said:


> I think the housing bubble is responsible for all this, people have huge mortgages taken out in the heat of the moment encouraged by Rudd and the housing industry, now they cant service those loans easily so they stop spending, retail declines , that puts more people out of work, houses get sold up, prices decline exacerbating the problem and the cycle repeats itself.




Try tell that to 95% of Aussies whos only, and number 1 investment is 'miracle housing'.
( just noticed my first post in 2 years )


----------



## MrBurns

BBBS said:


> Try tell that to 95% of Aussies whos only, and number 1 investment is 'miracle housing'.
> ( just noticed my first post in 2 years )




It's about to come back on them but not onto Rudd unfortunately who opened up the market to the Chinese who drove values through the roof with manic unrestricted spending.
He probably doesn't think about that much as he relaxes in a leather chair writing essays about his many acheivements while drawing a nice pension c/o you, the Aussie taxpayer.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Watching Greg Combet this morning , what an arrogant smug useless bastard he is, "it's Abbott stirring up a frenzy" "we have important reforms to put in place" "Julia Gillard is doing a good job"




I am a bit concerned about Greg myself. They call him "Mr. Fixit", because he cleans up they mess the PM and other MP's make.

It appears they keep him in a locked room with food, water, paper and a pencil. No other links to the outside world are allowed to distract him.

Every now and then they let him out for the media to interview. He has a few blinks(not a lot of light in the room), then makes a statement like, "yeah I am a bit suprised by the findings of the HSU report."

"Knock me down with a feather", why would he be suprised?
joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> I am a bit concerned about Greg myself. They call him "Mr. Fixit", because he cleans up they mess the PM and other MP's make.
> It appears they keep him in a locked room with food, water, paper and a pencil. No other links to the outside world are allowed to distract him.
> Every now and then they let him out for the media to interview. He has a few blinks(not a lot of light in the room), then makes a statement like, "yeah I am a bit suprised by the findings of the HSU report."
> "Knock me down with a feather", why would he be suprised?
> joea




I think they all should be in jail, very few criminal get away with what they have and we pay them to do it.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Someone should ask these creeps why they think they have a mandate to introduce a Carbon Tax when they went to the election stating the opposite, fact is they don't have a mandate to introduce such a massive change to the system, no mandate and no one wants it but they go forward as if it's their God given right to impose their personal agenda on all of us.



Hence the continually falling polls for Labor.  Today's Newspoll shows the government down to 27%.


----------



## McLovin

The worst bit is that I shudder at the alternative. I don't find anything redeeming in Abbott and Hockey. Although Hockey is more palatable than Abbott, IMO.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> Watching Greg Combet this morning , what an arrogant smug useless bastard he is, "it's Abbott stirring up a frenzy" "we have important reforms to put in place" "Julia Gillard is doing a good job" and so on ad nauseum, he has been added to my list of "those who deserve a good punch in the face" along with Simon Crean, Craig Emmerson and a number of others.
> 
> Someone should ask these creeps why they think they have a mandate to introduce a Carbon Tax when they went to the election stating the opposite, fact is they don't have a mandate to introduce such a massive change to the system, no mandate and no one wants it but they go forward as if it's their God given right to impose their personal agenda on all of us.




It's interesting because my dear departed father, a life long Labor voter, always complained that he couldn't come at the Liberals because they had a 'born to rule' attitude.  It's ironic that the Labor party are now the ones with the 'born to rule' attitude. 

I really dislike the way Gillard justifies her policy decisions by saying in a slow and deliberate voice (does she think the electorate is deaf or a bit thick?) that she's doing it because 'it's the right thing to do', well you can say that about anything!!  It's a subjective judgement, why does she thinks it's the right thing, explain your reasons please and we will decide if we think it's right or not!!!  This is treating the voters with huge comtempt


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> The worst bit is that I shudder at the alternative. I don't find anything redeeming in Abbott and Hockey. Although Hockey is more palatable than Abbott, IMO.




McLovin they can put Richard Nixon in for all I care as long as Labor is out !


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Hence the continually falling polls for Labor.  Today's Newspoll shows the government down to 27%.




Yes I'm looking for a lower number next poll...complete humiliation and nothing less.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> I really dislike the way Gillard justifies her policy decisions by saying in a slow and deliberate voice (does she think the electorate is deaf or a bit thick?) that she's doing it because 'it's the right thing to do', well you can say that about anything!!  It's a subjective judgement, why does she thinks it's the right thing, explain your reasons please and we will decide if we think it's right or not!!!  This is treating the voters with huge comtempt




It's all about her, as they say "she just doesnt get it"


----------



## moXJO

McLovin said:


> The worst bit is that I shudder at the alternative. I don't find anything redeeming in Abbott and Hockey. Although Hockey is more palatable than Abbott, IMO.




I have to agree. Being the smallest target hardly equals good leadership. Eventually they have to show their hand and I hope they don't come up trumps.
 Libs front bench is very iffy for me atm.


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> I have to agree. Being the smallest target hardly equals good leadership. Eventually they have to show their hand and I hope they don't come up trumps.
> Libs front bench is very iffy for me atm.




There's no doubt they wont be popular for too long because they will have to be rather brutal to get things back into order, but someone has to put things back together again once the waste has been stopped.


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> I think the housing bubble is responsible for all this, people have huge mortgages taken out in the heat of the moment encouraged by Rudd and the housing industry, now they cant service those loans easily so they stop spending, retail declines , that puts more people out of work, houses get sold up, prices decline exacerbating the problem and the cycle repeats itself.




I don't think it's so much the housing market but rather sentiment and costs. Business and consumer sentiment is very low, and it just seems like one beat down after the other while labor is in charge. Red tape is out of control, IR needs a overhaul, FWA is a joke, there is no clear direction or stability in government and the unions are making life hard. Throw in business expenses like taxes, workers comp, wages, rents and elec all going crazy and it's not to hard to see why people just fold.


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> I don't think it's so much the housing market but rather sentiment and costs. Business and consumer sentiment is very low, and it just seems like one beat down after the other while labor is in charge. Red tape is out of control, IR needs a overhaul, FWA is a joke, there is no clear direction or stability in government and the unions are making life hard. Throw in business expenses like taxes, workers comp, wages, rents and elec all going crazy and it's not to hard to see why people just fold.




I do think however that the amount of debt on housing has sucked the liquidity from the economy.

Baillieu just did away with the FHBG in Vic, a good thing really.


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> I don't think it's so much the housing market but rather sentiment and costs. Business and consumer sentiment is very low, and it just seems like one beat down after the other while labor is in charge. Red tape is out of control, IR needs a overhaul, FWA is a joke, there is no clear direction or stability in government and the unions are making life hard. Throw in business expenses like taxes, workers comp, wages, rents and elec all going crazy and it's not to hard to see why people just fold.



+1.   I cannot remember a time when a government seemed so hell bent on creating massive disadvantage in the electorate while so insulting that same electorate with claims of their "great reforms".  eg the carbon tax.
Their insistence on an unnecessary surplus is going to create additional hardship.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

On Skynews tonight  - the Gillard Government is demanding Christopher Pyne to come clean about his meetings with James Ashby.

A few media commentators speculated days ago that Ashby, a Liberal Party member might have been in cohoots with others in the Party.

But so what?  Slipper's actions since the filing of the claim stand to be judged (and condemned) on their own.  I'm not looking forward to how Gillard's tortured use of analogy is going to deal with this:

A line has been uncrossed?
The dark cloud is lighter for having filled my hyper-bowl?
Peter is not 'Pyneing' for James?


----------



## sails

StumpyPhantom said:


> On Skynews tonight  - the Gillard Government is demanding Christopher Pyne to come clean about his meetings with James Ashby.
> 
> A few media commentators speculated days ago that Ashby, a Liberal Party member might have been in cohoots with others in the Party.
> 
> But so what?  Slipper's actions since the filing of the claim stand to be judged (and condemned) on their own.  I'm not looking forward to how Gillard's tortured use of analogy is going to deal with this:
> 
> A line has been uncrossed?
> The dark cloud is lighter for having filled my hyper-bowl?
> Peter is not 'Pyneing' for James?




Gillard has shown she will use anything, no matter how small or possibly insignificant, in an attempt to make the coalition look worse than the massive issues facing her or her government.

I think the public at large (minus a handful here at ASF!) are tiring of her clear silliness and childishness.  Kids think adults can't see through their silly games and fibs and it seems that Gillard still has the same childish delusions and refusal to pick up her own responsibilities choosing instead to constantly pass the blame..

So, now it will all be Pyne's fault...


----------



## Logique

sails said:


> ...So, now it will all be Pyne's fault...



You mean the PynePynePyne. Imagine a manager of Opposition business, having meetings with people, what a nerve.


----------



## drsmith

Police raid HSU headquarters in corruption probe of Craig Thomson, Michael Williamson.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...chael-williamson/story-e6frg6nf-1226344371153

On top of that, former ALP NSW Premier Kristina Keneally has dumped on the carbon tax.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-02/kristina-keneally-says-repeal-the-carbon-tax/3984042


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> On Skynews tonight  - the Gillard Government is demanding Christopher Pyne to come clean about his meetings with James Ashby.




I am sure Pyne will be quick enough to comment. You first on the HSU, then me!

joea


----------



## Calliope

I like Kristina Keneally. She is one of the few Labor women with a touch of class and credibility.

[video]http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2229681181/Dump-carbon-tax-Keneally-tells-PM[/video]


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> I like Kristina Keneally. She is one of the few Labor women with a touch of class and credibility.
> [/video]




And a good sort


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> And a good sort



On that score, Natasha Scott De-Good-Sort is better.

She's one though in which I would have to avoid political conversation.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> On that score, Natasha Scott De-Good-Sort is better.
> 
> She's one though in which I would have to avoid political conversation.




Yes she's a looker too.

Saw The Iron Lady last night, amazing similarities between Gillard and Thatcher, I would be surprised if Gillard didn't watch it each morning before work.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Police raid HSU headquarters in corruption probe of Craig Thomson, Michael Williamson.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...chael-williamson/story-e6frg6nf-1226344371153
> 
> On top of that, former ALP NSW Premier Kristina Keneally has dumped on the carbon tax.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-02/kristina-keneally-says-repeal-the-carbon-tax/3984042




Doc, maybe Kristina Keneally is softening the public up for a Gillard back flip on the carbon dioxide tax.
I can just see her on TV," I have listened to the people of this great Nation of ours and I have decided to abolish the carbon price in the National interest".


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> Doc, maybe Kristina Keneally is softening the public up for a Gillard back flip on the carbon dioxide tax.
> I can just see her on TV," I have listened to the people of this great Nation of ours and I have decided to abolish the carbon price in the National interest".




She'd look like a complete idiot if she did that.'

They should postpone it and make it an election issue that might work if they massage the Carbon lie enough in the meantime.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Saw The Iron Lady last night, amazing similarities between Gillard and Thatcher, I would be surprised if Gillard didn't watch it each morning before work.



Thatcher at least believed in something beyond office for the sake of it.

Can you imagine Gillard Labor reacting in the same way as Margaret Thatcher if faced with a similar situation in relation to it's soverign territory (Falkland Islands) ?

I couldn't see the Greens giving approval to anything like that for a start.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> She'd look like a complete idiot if she did that.



She's long since given up on how she looks to the public.

It's how she looks to the Greens, Windsor and Oakshott that counts most to her.

That list might also have to also include Wilkie, again.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Thatcher at least believed in something beyond office for the sake of it.
> 
> Can you imagine Gillard Labor reacting in the same way as Margaret Thatcher if faced with a similar situation in relation to it's soverign territory (Falkland Islands).
> 
> I couldn't see the Greens giving approval to anything like that for a start.




It was more that she was pig headed and demanded her own way, the similarity ends there.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> She's long since given up on how she looks to the public.
> 
> It's how she looks to the Greens, Windsor and Oakshott that counts most to her.
> 
> That list might also have to also include Wilkie, again.



Yes, the Wilkie aspect has the potential to be pretty funny.  If Slipper and Thomson are appropriately dealt with and disappear, she's going to have to curry favour with Mr Wilkie all over again, her hypocrisy laid bare.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> It was more that she was pig headed and demanded her own way, the similarity ends there.



:iagree:

The only way Julia Gillard demands is the way that keeps her in office for another 5-minutes.


----------



## MrBurns

The phones must be running hot, I think she's finished, gone after the budget I would think.


----------



## drsmith

Gillard Labor has been finished for a long time. 

It's just unfortunate the electorate has to wait to bury the dead.


----------



## pilots

drsmith said:


> Gillard Labor has been finished for a long time.
> 
> It's just unfortunate the electorate has to wait to bury the dead.




Yes bury the dead, but we will have to put up with the STINK of them for years to come, thanks a lot labour


----------



## joea

Well here is something from a different angle.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ir-has-been-a-team-effort-20120502-1xz5d.html

joea


----------



## sails

joea said:


> Well here is something from a different angle.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ir-has-been-a-team-effort-20120502-1xz5d.html
> 
> joea





Agree with the article, Joea.  Even if labor change leader, it's unlikely to change the underlying driving in the wrong direction.  A new leader would have to start listening, quit the lies and start representing the wishes of the majority.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> Agree with the article, Joea.  Even if labor change leader, it's unlikely to change the underlying driving in the wrong direction.  A new leader would have to start listening, quit the lies and start representing the wishes of the majority.




The low standing of the labor government is a team effort - not just Gillard's doing.  From the above article;



> Labor's nadir has been a team effort, *the work of a party that operates as an extension of the big unions rather than the 82 per cent of ''working Australians'' who do not belong to unions*. Federal Labor can share the blame for its dismal 27 per cent standing in the polls, not shunt it onto their leader.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Calliope said:


> The low standing of the labor government is a team effort - not just Gillard's doing.  From the above article;




No doubt about the mediocre team in play here.  Conroy, Evans and Garrett probably has to be the worst of them.

But when the PM - the figurehead - the chief negotiator and salesman is Gillard, then you have the makings of an absolute disaster.  

I'll bet you the deals neogtiated with the Greens, Wilkie and the independents to form government didn't go through Cabinet.  And the first anyone heard about East Timor or the people's assembly on climate change, they thought they were mis-hearing Gillard's crazy accent.  There are many decisions (some policy-based, many not) that come straight from Gillard.

So let's not give Gillard even a partial excuse for her team's mediocrity.  After all, John Howard flourished with Bronwyn Bishop in his team for many years.  And Keating/Hawke did the same with Ros Kelly.


----------



## Happy

Glad that time is  -moving forward- 
 and during next election -we have job to do-
also we have to do -what is right for the country-

Pity we will have to pay Kevin and Julia till they kick the bucket, 
also pity that they don't have to share their retirement payout.


----------



## drsmith

Moving forward to the next cockup............



> The Premier, Barry O'Farrell, has told the NSW Parliament his government will seek to pass urgent legislation to ensure an administrator can be appointed to the scandal-plagued HSU East branch.
> 
> The move follows an application to the Federal Court this morning by six branches of the Health Services Union for an administrator to be appointed.
> 
> The application was put before Justice Geoffrey Flick this morning.
> 
> Workplace Relations Minister Bill Shorten has made a similar application.
> 
> Justice Flick was told the federal government may not have the jurisdiction to seek the order.
> 
> The court heard a minister had not attempted to make such an order in 100 years.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/ofar...ealth-union-administrator-20120503-1y0ko.html


----------



## joea

12 bloody submarines!! Why would we need twelve?
We need 4, two based in Darwin, two based on the east coast.
Cannot see anybody coming from the south.
Any more than 4, then they will just run into one another.
joea


----------



## DB008

joea said:


> 12 bloody submarines!! Why would we need twelve?
> We need 4, two based in Darwin, two based on the east coast.
> Any more than 4, then they will just run into one another.
> joea




How many do we have at the moment? 
6 Collins Class subs.
How many are operational? 1.....

Don't stress too much joea, if all goes to plan and Gillard+Co. get booted out in 18 months time, this submarine plan by the current Government will get amended with a new Government in power.


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> How many do we have at the moment?
> 6 Collins Class subs.
> How many are operational? 1.....
> 
> Don't stress too much joea, if all goes to plan and Gillard+Co. get booted out in 18 months time, this submarine plan by the current Government will get amended with a new Government in power.




Thank God for that. That has settled me a little!
For a minute there I thought Twiggy Forrest must be organizing a couple of crews.
It seems he is the guy getting people in jobs in WA.
joea


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> 12 bloody submarines!! Why would we need twelve?
> We need 4, two based in Darwin, two based on the east coast.
> Cannot see anybody coming from the south.
> Any more than 4, then they will just run into one another.
> joea





We wouldn't want any in WA where all our major energy resources are would we?

And the Indian ocean is just a mere swimming pool.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Wow - check out this article

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-on-the-critical-list-20120501-1xw40.html

It is mind-numbing paralysis.  Labor's best chance is a time-machine, or for someone to click their fingers so they can awake from this nightmare.


----------



## Logique

StumpyPhantom said:


> Wow - check out this article
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-on-the-critical-list-20120501-1xw40.html
> It is mind-numbing paralysis.  Labor's best chance is a time-machine, or for someone to click their fingers so they can awake from this nightmare.



 Not half an Age journo is she - any opposition to the carbon tax and mining tax is 'shouty, superficial and shallow'.


> Tony Abbott could take control of both houses of Parliament at the next election, and Labor's legacy is gone.
> 
> Carbon tax gone. Mining tax gone. Prospect of history judging this Labor government and this turbulent period in national affairs more kindly than the shouty, superficial, shallow present verdict ”” gone.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-on-the-critical-list-20120501-1xw40.html#ixzz1tqPCfHxm


----------



## dutchie

Report: Only 14.5 % of People Have Access to Free Press


http://www.voanews.com/english/news...ople-Have-Access-to-Free-Press-150093695.html

Australia will reduce that 14.5% if Labor gets its way.


----------



## tech/a

I met a fairy today who granted me one wish."
I want to live forever"  I said."
Sorry" said the fairy,  "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that, try something else.”
"Fine" I said, "I don't want to die until Julia Gillard is re-elected as Prime Minister". 
"You're a shifty little bastard, aren't you?"  said the fairy.


----------



## tech/a

I met a fairy today who granted me one wish."
I want to live forever"  I said."
Sorry" said the fairy,  "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that, try something else.”
"Fine" I said, "I don't want to die until Julia Gillard is re-elected as Prime Minister". 
"You're a shifty little bastard, aren't you?"  said the fairy.


That Fairy looked very familiar!


----------



## MrBurns

> Carbon compo 'not enough' for poorest households
> 
> Families and pensioners will soon be getting the first round of compensation for the incoming carbon tax, but there are fears it will not be enough for some low income households.
> 
> A new report into Australia's spending habits found that while incomes have kept up with cost of living pressures across the board, electricity prices were growing more sharply than other costs.




Told you so

This will be a disaster, the compo won't even touch the sides and Gillard will be off with her boyfriend on a PM's perks for life.

This will effect everyone, this is just the first report of what I considered an inevitable outcome.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-...-not-enough-for-low-income-households/3991364


----------



## StumpyPhantom

MrBurns said:


> Told you so
> 
> This will be a disaster, the compo won't even touch the sides and Gillard will be off with her boyfriend on a PM's perks for life.
> 
> This will effect everyone, this is just the first report of what I considered an inevitable outcome.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-...-not-enough-for-low-income-households/3991364




And to make the situation even worse (yeah - that's possible), the unions have already made a wage claim based on the fact that their better paid members (ie. those not getting the biggest compensation) will be left behind.

So the inflationary cycle, even before it all starts on 1 July, has already started.


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> So the inflationary cycle, even before it all starts on 1 July, has already started.




Inflation up, interest rates up shaemarket down ? deduct Lib influence after the election ?????????
I think it might be too late by then the economy will be suffering a bad case of Laboritis and won't recover in a hurry.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

MrBurns said:


> Inflation up, interest rates up shaemarket down ? deduct Lib influence after the election ?????????
> I think it might be too late by then the economy will be suffering a bad case of Laboritis and won't recover in a hurry.




MOOOVing FOURwerd, with our CLEEEEN ENEARGY FEEWWWWCHER, for WURRKING FAAAMILIES....


----------



## joea

In the media, one article states" A leadership change could be in play once the budget was delivered and there was no significant poll bounce."

Well I think with no clear challenger, and nobody with guts to advise her to stand down, then it appears the mostly likely way a change will come about is by a vote of no confidence.

The MP's on the cross bench maybe the only solution. If there is a solution!!!
joea


----------



## joea

It's all about the budget.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-and-hard-truths/story-fndbwnla-1226347242125

joea


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

The population's main aim from hereon in, is to resist Stockholm Syndrome.

Having been taken hostage by the Greenies, Mad Socialists, Commos and Cafe Nistas, we just need to keep our anger smouldering, and be conscious of the tendency to fall in to line with the regime.

gg


----------



## kincella

http://vimeo.com/41541940
if you really enjoy a good laugh


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

kincella said:


> http://vimeo.com/41541940
> if you really enjoy a good laugh




+1

lol

gg


----------



## IFocus

StumpyPhantom said:


> So the inflationary cycle, even before it all starts on 1 July, has already started.




Its certainly started in WA big time under a conservative government gas up another 8% this week, electricity price rises are through the roof.


----------



## Logique

Fair enough IF, it's not all because of the carbon tax.

Just wanted to alert the Labor-Greens government to it's best chance. The SOI has crossed the signal line into negative.  A drier, warmer winter may result for southern Australia. 

Of course the dams are now full. That would never fill again, according to the Greens Party, did presumptive Senator Whish-Wilson endorse this viewpoint, in line with Guru Flim-Flammery?


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Its certainly started in WA big time under a conservative government gas up another 8% this week, electricity price rises are through the roof.




Who is to say that isn't carbon tax already starting to bite?

I'm not sure you can blame all  that on a state government when there is a big nasty federal tax coming that is more than likely going to push up utility prices - not to mention the compounding effect on groceries, rates and everything else you can think of.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

sails said:


> Who is to say that isn't carbon tax already starting to bite?
> 
> I'm not sure you can blame all  that on a state government when there is a big nasty federal tax coming that is more than likely going to push up utility prices - not to mention the compounding effect on groceries, rates and everything else you can think of.




I can see it's going to be botched - see this link:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/gove...ying-firms-20120504-1y3mp.html?skin=text-only 

which includes the following (emphasis in bold):

_"Companies such as ALCOA, BHP Billiton, Boral and *La Trobe University *are among about 250 companies that will pay the carbon tax when it is introduced on July 1.

The Clean Energy Regulator has today published an initial list of 250 ''liable entities'' that will face the $23 per tonne tax. However, a further 80 companies have also notified that they are likely to face the new tax in the 2012-2013 financial year.

It says these companies and facilities will account for more than 95 per cent of emissions covered by the carbon price mechanism. The list will continually be updated.

Other entities listed by the regulator today include the Brisbane City Council, BlueScope Steel, the City of Armadale, Rio Tinto and Thales.

The government has been estimating that about 500 companies would pay the carbon tax.

"I think we'll come in underneath 500 but it is a matter for the regulator to determine," Climate Change Minister Greg Combet said.

Mr Combet said the initial list was based on greenhouse emissions reporting by companies over the last four to five years."_

All that hot air out of universities, in the case of La Trobe Uni, must be igniting the coal sitting under it.  This greenhouse emissions reporting, if it's anythig like the joke it was treated as by the people I saw filling it in, is going to be nothing but inaccurate.

So all those poor students at La Trobe, who don't even carry pens (much less use paper) any more are going to have to pay double the uni fees for walking into lectures with their iPads or logging in from home and down-loading it.

Meanwhile, Christine Milne and her Tasmanian mate Wishy-Washy fly to Canberra on a weekly basis and apparently have no carbon footprint.

The Government should just start the Carbon Lottery that we can all go to the newsagent and pay our money (gladly) to have a stab at.


----------



## sails

Stumpy, I understand that the government is exempt from carbon tax even though they are one of the country's largest emitters of co2.  Now that's hypocritical and undermines their apparent concern for the environment, imo.

Source:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-carbon-skeleton/story-fn59niix-1226090982940


----------



## Julia

This article describes better than any other I've read the factors causing the current woeful status of the government.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/a-hildebrand-guide-how-labor-destroyed-itself/

Extract:


> There are countless other factors and examples that even the internet doesn’t allow space for but the nub of it is that we have a government that is neither grounded in nor has significant exposure to the full breadth of the electorate and the mass of antipathy, frustration and disbelief that lies therein. It almost defies belief to think that it was only after she got off a plane on the weekend that Gillard realised the true public hostility towards the government’s defence of Slipper and Thomson but this is what she said with a straight face on Sunday.
> 
> And it actually makes sense. Every time the government has been criticised or attacked, it has deluded itself to think that it is just the work of Tony Abbott or the Murdoch press or some other sinister force seeking to destroy all that is good and light. Not once does the party seriously consider the possibility that the public has turned on them because they knifed a popularly elected prime minister, lied twice about “the greatest moral challenge of our time”, and sought to defend two alleged rorters caught – almost literally – with their pants down.
> 
> The ALP simply no longer knows what people are thinking. It is so consumed by parlour house politics – such as the “masterstroke” of recruiting Slipper – or patching together piecemeal and unpopular policies to appeal to tiny vested interests such as Wilkie and the Greens that it has completely lost sight of how these issues are playing out in the wider electorate. Then when they do hear the negative feedback they are so simultaneously arrogant and paranoid that they simply shoot the messenger.
> 
> And no doubt again when they read this piece the same bunch of ostriches will ignore its contents and accuse me of being yet another agent of evil attempting to destroy the party. They will rant and rail and stick their heads in the sand.
> 
> And most tragically of all they will not stop to ask themselves why someone trying to destroy the Labor Party would spend 2,000 words explaining how to save it.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

++1 - The whole article is a great read: 

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/...troyed-itself/

Delusions of grandeur do not come any clearer than this.  And (something the article forgot to mention), everytime all of the above is used as an excuse and the venom hasn't gone away, then the burden of being Australia's first female PM gets trotted out as a last resort.

As for this:



sails said:


> Stumpy, I understand that the government is exempt from carbon tax even though they are one of the country's largest emitters of co2.  Now that's hypocritical and undermines their apparent concern for the environment, imo.
> [/url]




They're completely conditioned to this (and it helps immunise them further from the real world). Did you know that all your tax invoices for your goods and services, when you invoice the Federal Government, they simply lop off the 10% GST.

That's right!  They don't pay it, never have since the start.  So no surprise they're not paying the carbon tax either.  Who the hell would they charge?


----------



## sails

StumpyPhantom said:


> ...They're completely conditioned to this (and it helps immunise them further from the real world). Did you know that all your tax invoices for your goods and services, when you invoice the Federal Government, they simply lop off the 10% GST.
> 
> That's right!  They don't pay it, never have since the start.  So no surprise they're not paying the carbon tax either.  Who the hell would they charge?





However, it gives the message that they are not serious about the environment which give more credence to the theory that it is nothing more than a wealth redistribution.  Perhaps they are hoping we are too stupid to notice.


----------



## Calliope

StumpyPhantom said:


> Delusions of grandeur do not come any clearer than this.  And (something the article forgot to mention), everytime all of the above is used as an excuse and the venom hasn't gone away, *then the burden of being Australia's first female PM gets trotted out as a last resort*.




She is tougher than most of her male front bench.



> Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
> The Female of the Species
> 
> WHEN the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
> He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
> But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
> For the female of the species is more deadly than the male


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> She is tougher than most of her male front bench.




Is it tougher or just ambitious, cruel and belligerent. ?


----------



## drsmith

Is Labor's biggest lie about to be the catalyst for another mutiny ?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...carbon-tax-fears/story-e6freuy9-1226347607191


----------



## Calliope

This should give Harvey Norman a big lift in widescreen TV sales, and computer games for the kids.



> PARENTS will receive up to $820 for every child they have at school - paid directly into their bank account next month - as part of a federal government overhaul to combat rising education costs.
> 
> In another sign the government is preparing a Robin Hood Budget that targets the rich but helps battling families, Julia Gillard will announce the means-tested payment today.
> 
> *The Sunday Telegraph can reveal the payment will replace the existing education tax refund, which forced parents to keep receipts to prove they had spent thousands of dollars on computers and school uniforms before claiming a rebate for education expenses*.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...very-schoolchild/story-e6freuy9-1226347607402


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> This should give Harvey Norman a big lift in widescreen TV sales.
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...very-schoolchild/story-e6freuy9-1226347607402




Makes you sick doesnt it, she's going to spend as much of our money as possible to buy votes before she gets thrown out


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Who is to say that isn't carbon tax already starting to bite?
> 
> I'm not sure you can blame all  that on a state government when there is a big nasty federal tax coming that is more than likely going to push up utility prices - not to mention the compounding effect on groceries, rates and everything else you can think of.




Government charges in WA have been sky rocketing under the conservatives watch, mean time massive amounts of largess are handed out to selected liberal / national party held seats like confetti. 

Labor or the carbon tax have nothing to do with these digressions.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

IFocus said:


> Labor or the carbon tax have nothing to do with these digressions.




57% of voters would not agree with you. You would be lucky to muster 25% who would agree.

And it is because the ALP regime, held hostage to the Greens and independents, are utter and complete muppets, when it comes to running a country or an economy.

Absolute amateurs, more used to Union diddling or working in legal offices or universities.

gg


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> Makes you sick doesnt it, she's going to spend as much of our money as possible to buy votes before she gets thrown out



The worst of it is the way they play favourites. Joe Hockey this morning on 'ALP Insiders' called it carbon tax cost-of-living compensation. 

I say, it is only for (the usual) select few.

Hot tip: watch out for your superannuation in the Fed budget when announced.


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Hot tip: watch out for your superannuation in the Fed budget when announced.



It's allready known that the super  tax rebate on super contributions for earners over $300k will be reduced. That though only affects a very limited number of people and therefore the revenue gained.

The question though is what else is to come ?


----------



## sails

Here is economist, Professor Judith Sloan on the Bolt Report this morning talking about the attempts to bring the budget back to surplus.  Interesting...


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> Here is economist, Professor Judith Sloan on the Bolt Report this morning talking about the attempts to bring the budget back to surplus.  Interesting...


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> Here is economist, Professor Judith Sloan on the Bolt Report this morning talking about the attempts to bring the budget back to surplus.  Interesting...]




She is very impressive. She is contributing economics editor for The Australian.


----------



## Knobby22

MrBurns said:


> Makes you sick doesnt it, she's going to spend as much of our money as possible to buy votes before she gets thrown out




I got kids! I win!

(Agree with comment though)


----------



## MrBurns

Knobby22 said:


> I got kids! I win!




I think you'll change your mind when the Carbon Tax kicks in, it will effect everything.


----------



## sails

Knobby22 said:


> I got kids! I win!
> 
> (Agree with comment though)





If you've got kids, you would have already been eligible for 50% rebates on uniforms and whatever else Gillard sprouted off before the last election.  But, once again, she doesn't keep that promise, lets most of the financial year go by where people have been keeping their dockets only to find she changes the goal posts AND apparently it is to be means tested.


----------



## sails

Here's an article on Gillard cutting down on Rudd's funding for defence:

From SMH: Dear foes: Invade us in 2028


----------



## Eager

StumpyPhantom said:


> All that hot air out of universities, in the case of La Trobe Uni, must be igniting the coal sitting under it.



Oh, the ignorance!!!!!

You think that LaTrobe University is situated in the LaTrobe Valley, which is known for its brown coal mines and power stations.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Do yourself a favour and stop assuming things. Do some research instead. Never mind, I feel sorry for ignoramuses sometimes. Here y'go:
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/campuses


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> Oh, the ignorance!!!!!
> You think that LaTrobe University is situated in the LaTrobe Valley, which is known for its brown coal mines and power stations.
> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
> Do yourself a favour and stop assuming things. Do some research instead. Never mind, I feel sorry for ignoramuses sometimes. Here y'go:
> http://www.latrobe.edu.au/campuses




You know what's REALLY ignorant ? People who barge in and call others names with no purpose other than to offend, that's you Eager....ignorant.:bad:


----------



## sails

MrBurns said:


> You know what's REALLY ignorant ? People who barge in and call others names with no purpose other than to offend, that's you Eager....ignorant.:bad:





lol - was Eager talking to me?  I remain blissfully unaware and blood pressure remains intact...


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> lol - was Eager talking to me?  I remain blissfully unaware and blood pressure remains intact...




No he was talking to StumpyPhantom who just happened to be in his line of fire.


----------



## Knobby22

Knobby22 said:


> I got kids! I win!
> 
> (Agree with comment though)




No, it's means tested. I lose


----------



## Logique

The French don't seem to mind a Gillard-esque government, having elected President Hollande, who at first glance seems a socialist cut from the same cloth.

The French have rebelled against the austerity measures of former Pres Sarkozy. As far as France and Europe are concerned, I've got a bad feeling about this.


----------



## joea

Logique said:


> The French don't seem to mind a Gillard-esque government, having elected President Hollande, who at first glance seems a socialist cut from the same cloth.
> 
> The French have rebelled against the austerity measures of former Pres Sarkozy. As far as France and Europe are concerned, I've got a bad feeling about this.




There will be a shake up, elsewhere as well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e-and-greece/2012/05/06/gIQAC9Td5T_story.html

joea


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> You know what's REALLY ignorant ? People who barge in and call others names with no purpose other than to offend, that's you Eager....ignorant.:bad:



Similar to your sista *sails* who can label people as twats etc as she pleases, thanks to the new lower standards that are now deemed acceptable by Joe.

Have you devised your own meaning for ignorant, Mr Burns? One to fit your way of thinking? To be ignorant is to sprout off while lacking knowledge in the subject at hand - I pointed out to StumpyPhantom that LaTrobe University was indeed not in the LaTrobe Valley and it was obvious that he/she made a false connection due to its name.

If you are now saying that it is no longer acceptable to pull people up on erroneous posts, what are we all going to talk about????


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> Similar to your sista *sails* who can label people as twats etc as she pleases, thanks to the new lower standards that are now deemed acceptable by Joe.
> Have you devised your own meaning for ignorant, Mr Burns? One to fit your way of thinking? To be ignorant is to sprout off while lacking knowledge in the subject at hand - I pointed out to StumpyPhantom that LaTrobe University was indeed not in the LaTrobe Valley and it was obvious that he/she made a false connection due to its name.
> If you are now saying that it is no longer acceptable to pull people up on erroneous posts, what are we all going to talk about????




I might have to start charging you for lessons in "niceness" calling someone ignorant is an insult.


----------



## Eager

MrBurns said:


> I might have to start charging you for lessons in "niceness" calling someone ignorant is an insult.



Like I said, lower standards apply here now, viz. sails.


----------



## MrBurns

> The typical Liberal mantra:
> Originally Posted by MrBurns
> I think we better just forget the idea that Australia is meant for white Anglo Saxons.




Under your standards this is an ignorant statement on your behalf, please be free to take this as an insult.

For generations we had the white Australia policy, it was in place to avoid racial tension, even when it was done away with people still thought of Australia as predominantly occupied by white skinned people and that thought that Australia is still predominant white still persists, it doesn't mean that others aren't welcome but many draw the line at total domination of this country by other races of people.

That was what my comment was referring to, not racist not discriminatory just a recognition that we are fast moving to being a truly Asian nation along with the influx of the Asian people into Australia.


----------



## Joe Blow

Eager said:


> Similar to your sista *sails* who can label people as twats etc as she pleases, thanks to the new lower standards that are now deemed acceptable by Joe.




Actually, the standards are not lower, but I do take several factors into account when making a moderation decision. These include, but are not limited to, the person's previous record of behaviour and the element of provocation, both of which were taken into account in the decision to which you refer. My decision in that case was that a warning was appropriate, and one was issued.

However, I am not going to take this thread off topic. If you wish to discuss this further, you may PM me.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> That was what my comment was referring to, not racist not discriminatory just a recognition that we are fast moving to being a truly Asian nation along with the influx of the Asian people into Australia.




There are plenty of Australians who could learn from the study and work ethics of many Asian cultures.


----------



## Logique

This article in The Australian wouldn't have helped investors frame of mind today.



> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...lections-us-jobs/story-e6frg916-1226348694296
> ...While concerns about Greece are more immediate, given that the country is close to the brink, France is probably a bigger concern in the longer term, said Mr Oliver [Shane Oliver, head of investment strategy at AMP Capital.]
> 
> “Investors are worried because the last time the French elected a socialist government, the share market fell 30 per cent,” said Mr Oliver. That was in 1981 with the election of Francois Mitterrand to power.
> 
> Meanwhile, the US jobs data stoked fresh fears that the US is heading for a double-dip recession, Mr Oliver said. “It’s like deja vu,” he said, referring to last year when stocks started the year with enthusiasm but gains then fell away...


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> There are plenty of Australians who could learn from the study and work ethics of many Asian cultures.




Yes many years ago Aussies hated the Italians because they took all the jobs, but the fact was they were prepared to work harder.


----------



## sails

Joe Blow said:


> Actually, the standards are not lower, but I do take several factors into account when making a moderation decision. These include, but are not limited to, the person's previous record of behaviour and the element of provocation, both of which were taken into account in the decision to which you refer. My decision in that case was that a warning was appropriate, and one was issued.
> 
> However, I am not going to take this thread off topic. If you wish to discuss this further, you may PM me.




Just one post, Joe.  I am offering an apology to Eager for calling him a "twat".  I looked the word up today and didn't realise just how offensive it is and would never have used that word. .. .  Yes, Eager's insulting post got me very annoyed, but he didn't deserve that.  However, I will keep him on ignore as I find the insults he weaves into his posts generally tend to raise the blood pressure a bit too much and subsequently draw out swiping responses from me!

Back on the depressing topic of the Gillard Government!


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> Back on the depressing topic of the Gillard Government!




Is she still there ?, damn


----------



## sails

MrBurns said:


> Is she still there ?, damn





Yeah, unfortunately.  And she was at the Red Cross today and couldn't help herself in ridiculing Abbott once again.  

He must get so sick of her constant school yard tactics.  I think he has earned the right to be PM putting up with this constant nonsense.

From the SMH: PM and Abbott at cross purposes


----------



## Eager

sails said:


> Just one post, Joe.  I am offering an apology to Eager for calling him a "twat".  I looked the word up today and didn't realise just how offensive it is and would never have used that word. .. .



Thank you, your apology is accepted. Really.


----------



## sails

The HSU report has been tabled in parliament tonight.  1127 pages of it.



> Federal MP Craig Thomson spent union funds on his election campaign, escorts, meals and taxis when he was a Health Services Union (HSU) official and continued to do so for several months after entering parliament, a report claims.
> 
> Fair Work Australia's (FWA's) 1100-page report of its investigation into the union, which was led by Mr Thomson between 2002 and his election in November 2007, was tabled in federal parliament on Monday evening.




Read more from NineMSN:Thomson spent union money on campaign: FWA


Full report: http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/92658600


Will be an interesting day in the house of reps tomorrow...


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> The HSU report has been tabled in parliament tonight.  1127 pages of it.



So, that was the distant thud that I heard.


----------



## sails

Eager said:


> Thank you, your apology is accepted. Really.




Thanks Eager.  I saw you had posted and took you off ignore to see if you had responded.  I'll leave it off for now and see how we go...


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> So, that was the distant thud that I heard.




Yeah some thud!  Just reading the index doesn't look good for Thomson.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> He must get so sick of her constant school yard tactics.  I think he has earned the right to be PM putting up with this constant nonsense.



Actually, imo if he continues with his present tactic of saying little and ignoring her personal jibes it's likely he will acquire more brownie points.  Her behaviour says way more about her than it does about him.
He seems to be gradually learning the dignity of shutting up.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> He seems to be gradually learning the dignity of shutting up.




Lucky for him....  Every time he opens his mouth dumb usually falls out.


----------



## Glen48

Have you lost trust in modern Australian politics?

Yes	68%	
What's trust got to do with it?	18%	
No	14%	
6124 votes counted
 from ABC poll


----------



## sails

moXJO said:


> Lucky for him....  Every time he opens his mouth dumb usually falls out.




Below is Abbott's speech at the Red Cross yesterday - no digs at Gillard.  It seems dumb frequently comes out of her mouth in the form of personal attacks.




> It’s great to be here at what is indeed a gathering that unites all the various disparate forces in this parliament – The Prime Minister, the Leader of the Greens, the Leader of the National Party. There isn’t a member of parliament who wouldn’t applaud what we do today, because wherever there is trouble, there is the Red Cross to lend a helping hand. I was in Emerald early last year – a town that had been devastated by floods and who did I see organising the relief centre, but Jane Prentice MP – not there as a member of parliament, but there as a member of the Red Cross and it was terrific to see her there being useful, which is what the Red Cross is – in trouble in trouble-spots. I was a tourist, she was useful.
> 
> The Red Cross has 85 regional offices around our country, it has tens of thousands of volunteers in its ranks. It provides 750,000 breakfasts to kids that might not otherwise get fed, every year. It assists tens of thousands of Australians every year. The Red Cross volunteers are amongst the best of us and by forming this parliamentary friendship group, we do of course salute them. It is the strength of our people, which is the strength of our country. It’s not the things we have to do, it’s the things we choose to do that make us fully human. It is not the things we do for money, it’s the things we do for love that make us a great people and Australians are a great people. The Red Cross and their work is a manifestation of the spirit of our people so I am delighted to be here. I am delighted to join my senior parliamentary colleagues in saluting the Red Cross on this special day.




And this was Gillards little quirp. 



> Can I acknowledge that today is truly and bipartisan event. I’m here with the Leader of the Opposition. I’m red. He’s always cross. So we’re here together.
> 
> (Groans of complaint mixed with laughter from the audience.)
> 
> Had to do it. Sorry.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/one_has_class/


----------



## sails

An excerpt from Niki Savva on Bolt's Blog - Why doesn’t Labor choose a leader who’ll change its policy?:



> Less talk or more ticker, please. Either lock in grimly behind the Prime Minister and prepare for the looming horror crash or press eject.
> 
> In late 2009 many Liberals were in a similar state of despair. They had already disposed of one leader, Brendan Nelson, and thought they had no choice except to stick with Malcolm Turnbull until the election, which they fully expected to lose and lose badly.
> 
> Turnbull’s determination to vote for Kevin Rudd’s emissions trading scheme provided the trigger for a revolt by three junior frontbench senators—Mitch Fifield, Brett Mason and Mathias Cormann—who individually rang Turnbull in the space of an hour on November 25 to tell him they could not support the policy and were resigning.
> 
> This is how one of them characterises it now: “If we didn’t change the leader, we couldn’t change the policy, and if we didn’t change the policy we were buggered.”
> 
> The next day Tony Abbott, Nick Minchin, Tony Smith, Sophie Mirabella and Eric Abetz followed suit…
> 
> The senators acted because they had a deadline, the Senate vote. What they did not have was an alternative candidate. What’s more, they did not care.




And I agree with Bolt when he adds, "Niki is right about the what: the carbon tax. Which means the decision for Labor is not which leader voters will like most, but which will scrap the tax. "

Full article from the Australian (Subscription required): Nothing to lose but the wrong leader


----------



## sptrawler

Sounds like Oakeshott might falter, he has to decide pension or pride. I think pension will win. LOL
The hand is on the ripcord ready to bale out and I bet Wilkie isn't far behind. Jumping second doesn't score as well with the electorate.
It is great to see the penny has dropped with labor, queensland result would have told them. 
Also Bob Brown walking away into the sunset with his partner, smile on his face, mission accomplished. He really played Julia and the problem for her is she faces a secret ballot it's called an election.
I am betting this will be the biggest swing against a government ever recorded in Australia.

If the independents don't jump ship they are just giving the coalition more numbers.LOL


----------



## dutchie

sptrawler said:


> If the independents don't jump ship they are just giving the coalition more numbers.LOL




Even if the rats jumped ship today it still would not save them at the next election.

They are gooooooooooone!


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> If the independents don't jump ship they are just giving the coalition more numbers.LOL




Could we hope for a balance of integrity in this fiasco.?

Thompson responds to allegations.
Parliament discuss the situation rationally.
Thompson is suspended from parliament, because of vote from independents until the legal system gets into motion.

No sorry I was just being hopeful.
I could just see that "little grub" Wilkie going for another deal to buy his vote.
Any which way, I believe Oakeshott will be the key!
He has decided he would like to stay in politics.

joea


----------



## noco

I believe Oakshott has his hands tied until August. If he makes any move before hand and brings on an election, he will lose his entitlements.


----------



## joea

Having seen the unemployment figures. Full unemployment fell 10,500 and part time rose 26,000 and thinking the market rose 10 points in 10 minutes on this as good news.
Good bloody news!! It is another stuff up!!

I decided we needed some light entertainment to go with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgSbof-qcg&feature=player_embedded

joea


----------



## Glen48

Dear Australian Taxpayer

I want to thank the hard
working Australian people for paying
for my recent vacation in Singapore and Turkey .

I had a wonderful time with Julia.  

Honestly, you just haven't lived until you have stayed
at a 5-Star luxury hotel.

Thank you also for the use of the RAAF VIP jet 
and the RAAF crew and security staff who tagged
along to be sure we were safe and cared for at all times.

I understand that the fuel usage by the RAAF VIP jet 
was minimal for this trip, as were the carbon emissions.

Nevertheless, we must ask Australians
to drive smaller, more fuel efficient cars and
drive less too, so we can lessen our combined
carbon footprint.

I was really exhausted after Julia took me to England for the Royal Wedding
last year but it was worth it to meet the Queen and Prince Philip, although
we didn’t talk very much, as he was not interested in hair dressing.  So it
is always a treat to relax and fly with Julia in the RAAF VIP jet
to watch a football match in Melbourne.

Fortunately, although Wayne Swan says that all sectors of the community
must make sacrifices to ensure that he can meet his budget surplus target,
this does not apply to the Prime Minister or Federal Parliamentarians.

They will continue to enjoy the whacking great pay rise
recently approved by themselves; flying Business Class
rather than Economy Class on short trips in Australia (even though
there is insufficient time to serve breakfast on the 20-minute flight
from Canberra to Sydney);  overseas “study trips”
at your expense; Ministers will use the RAAF VIP jet on overseas trips, rather than
commercial air services; they will continue to get an enormous pension, and (in Julia’s case)
the use of an office, car and driver and the usual travel perks for the rest of her life
after she is thrown out of her job next year.

I know times are hard and millions of you are struggling
to put food on the table and trying to make ends meet.
So I do appreciate your sacrifices and do hope you
find work soon.

Remember, we all have to share the pain of these
economic times equally!  

Cordially,

Tim Mathieson


----------



## Eager

^ Gillard, and particulary the First Bloke, make a poofteenth of the salary of corporate high-flyers, yet your diatribe is directed at those COMPARATIVE paupers.

Why? 

At least Gillard and Mathieson pay tax!!!!!


----------



## MrBurns

Eager said:


> ^ Gillard, and particulary the First Bloke, make a poofteenth of the salary of corporate high-flyers, yet your diatribe is directed at those COMPARATIVE paupers.
> Why?
> At least Gillard and Mathieson pay tax!!!!!




Those 2 bludgers will be sucking at the teat of the taxpayer for the rest of their miserable lives. Fine reward for protecting their own position at the expense of decency and honesty.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Those 2 bludgers will be sucking at the teat of the taxpayer for the rest of their miserable lives. Fine reward for protecting their own position at the expense of decency and honesty.



+1.
And Eager, what a silly comparison you attempt to make.
The people whom you describe as 'corporate high fliers' are not paid by the taxpayer.
It's only the business of the shareholders what the CEOs of corporate Australia are paid.


----------



## Logique

According to the Budget Reply speech, the cumulative budget bottom line has

 - deteriorated  by $26M in 12 months, and behind the scenes the Govt is 
 - proposing to add a further $50M to the Commonwealth debt ceiling. This is being hidden in Appropriation Bills.

There's your likelihood of a surplus.


----------



## dutchie

*How Labor helps “working families”.*

First they encourage working families to join a union so that they can fight those nasty non “working families” that actually provide them a job.

The union members have to pay big annual fees to help fight those nasty non “working families” and have to elect union officials to assist in the spending of that money.

Then unbeknownst to the union members, union officials pocket nearly all the fees paid to feather their own nest (most fair minded people call this embezzlement and in fact it is against the law).

However when these facts start coming to the surface the Labor government comes to the rescue of the “working families” and gets a body that they have set up to oversee these unions (you know it’s good for “working families” because it’s got the word _*fair*_ in it) to investigate the corruption and deliver a report.

This body then takes over 4 years to deliver this report (despite the fact that any half witted Accounting Associate could have produced it in a week).

Low and behold the embezzlement of some of the money by one of the union officials can’t be prosecuted because the three years statute of limitations has expired – how convenient for the union official  - over a quarter million dollars in his pocket and he gets off scot free.

Now this poor down trodden union official who has stolen this money from hard working “working families” gets his legal bills paid by the Labor party. The party that has accepted union contributions to run the Labor party.

So the union official who obviously falls within “working families” has a win win – not only is he able to siphon off money from the union he works so hard for but the union also pays for his legal cost when he has to defend his right to take that money as he pleases.

The “working families” have lost their money and have no say or recourse in the matter because the system has been manipulated and abused.

Now the union official, very happy that he has been able to get ahead by stealing from the “working families” money, uses it to gain a position in a government that runs the country.  This now enables him to help “working families” even more.  He has hit the mother load and can suck at this teat for a long, long time.  
*That's how you help “working families”!*


----------



## dutchie

Julia Gillard’s attempt to divide Australians into different classes should be vehemently opposed.

One of the strengths of our Australian society has always been that it is classless.

For someone to try and create divisiveness in our society, along class lines, purely for political advantage, is traitorous.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> According to the Budget Reply speech, the cumulative budget bottom line has
> 
> - deteriorated  by $26M in 12 months, and behind the scenes the Govt is
> - proposing to add a further $50M to the Commonwealth debt ceiling. This is being hidden in Appropriation Bills.
> 
> There's your likelihood of a surplus.




Logique, make that $50 billion.


----------



## Logique

Thanks Noco,
the sum is billions.

- $26Bill bottom line deterioration in 12 months
- covertly seeking a further $50Bill to the Commonwealth debt ceiling


----------



## DB008

Logique said:


> Thanks Noco,
> the sum is billions.
> 
> - $26Bill bottom line deterioration in 12 months
> - covertly seeking a further $50Bill to the Commonwealth debt ceiling




How can the current Government go further in debt, but still have surplus? 

There are rumours floating around that the current Gov is borrowing 100million a day? Is this true, are there any links to it? 
If so, why isn't the opposition pointing it out.


Only link l could find was;

http://www.aofm.gov.au/

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2012/04/14/Tony-Abbott-Doorstop.aspx

http://www.international.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2124:gillard-debt-tops-200-billion-after-labor-borrows-100-million-per-day&catid=97:breaking-news&Itemid=119


----------



## joea

If you watch closely, you will see Labor get going quickly on some of the hand outs.
Then check the current deficit for this current year, at the end of the financial year.
I believe it will be topped up dramatically.
There is a fair chance I will remember to do that.

joea


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> How can the current Government go further in debt, but still have surplus?




DB008
Here is Swan's estimate from last year.
Note the current deficit is $44 billion I think.
His original surplus was $3.5 billion.
Sportsbet has it as another deficit next year.

http://australianpolitics.com/2011/11/29/myefo-predicts-small-budget-surplus.html
joea


----------



## sails

DB008 said:


> How can the current Government go further in debt, but still have surplus?
> 
> There are rumours floating around that the current Gov is borrowing 100million a day? Is this true, are there any links to it?
> If so, why isn't the opposition pointing it out.
> 
> 
> Only link l could find was;
> 
> http://www.aofm.gov.au/
> 
> http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2012/04/14/Tony-Abbott-Doorstop.aspx
> 
> http://www.international.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2124:gillard-debt-tops-200-billion-after-labor-borrows-100-million-per-day&catid=97:breaking-news&Itemid=119




Dannyboy, I remember the $100m per day being plastered all over the polling boths in the last federal election so it has been brought out.  Maybe the libs will zero back in on that for their election advertising.

And here is a website which explains debt vs. deficit: http://thenationaldebtcrisis.com/national-debt-vs-budget-deficit/

In my basic understanding:

Income less expenses = deficit or surplus (cashflow or lack of)
Expenses include interest expense incurred from loans (debt)

I am sure someone will correct me if I have it wrong...lol


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> +1.
> And Eager, what a silly comparison you attempt to make.
> The people whom you describe as 'corporate high fliers' are not paid by the taxpayer.
> It's only the business of the shareholders what the CEOs of corporate Australia are paid.



Glenn's post was all about people enjoying a high life due to their priveliged positions. I appreciate the difference between taxpayer funded and not, but realistically, even if Gillard was paid $10m per year that only equates to less than a dollar for each taxpayer.


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> Glenn's post was all about people enjoying a high life due to their
> privileged positions.



No it wasn't.  It was about what the taxpayer is funding.
I'm sure Glenn will correct me if I have it wrong.



> I appreciate the difference between taxpayer funded and not,



Really?  Your post suggested otherwise.



> but realistically, even if Gillard was paid $10m per year that only equates to less than a dollar for each taxpayer.



It doesn't matter what she is paid if she is not delivering value for money.  And she sure as hell is not. All she is about is maintaining her own position at the expense of the electorate and the long term good of the country.
A less amoral person would crumble in shame.


----------



## bellenuit

sails said:


> Dannyboy, I remember the $100m per day being plastered all over the polling boths in the last federal election so it has been brought out.  Maybe the libs will zero back in on that for their election advertising.
> 
> And here is a website which explains debt vs. deficit: http://thenationaldebtcrisis.com/national-debt-vs-budget-deficit/
> 
> In my basic understanding:
> 
> Income less expenses = deficit or surplus (cashflow or lack of)
> Expenses include interest expense incurred from loans (debt)
> 
> I am sure someone will correct me if I have it wrong...lol




I don't understand why the coalition doesn't emphasise the difference between the current account deficit and the national debt and hammer home that getting the budget into surplus, particularly if only a billion or so, will have a negligible impact on the national debt.

I believe public debt is in the region of $235B, but many of the less financial literate people I know seem to think that getting the budget into surplus means that this debt will be eliminated by the end of 2012/2013 year. They do not understand that the budget only applies to current year income/expenditure and is different from the debt.  A surplus will reduce the debt by the amount of the surplus, but with the debt in the hundreds of billions and the project surplus in the single billions, the impact on the debt will be negligible.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> I believe the reason she is doing o.k in the polls is she keeps harping on that they will bring the budget to surplus. The general public is thinking that means they are out of debt.
> What Abbot needs to do is start and tell the public how much debt we have on board due to these goons.
> Also how long it will take to feasably get back to where we were 5 years ago.




I agree bellinuit, as the above post shows, back in March we were saying the same thing.


----------



## bellenuit

sptrawler said:


> I believe the reason she is doing o.k in the polls is she keeps harping on that they will bring the budget to surplus. The general public is thinking that means they are out of debt.
> What Abbot needs to do is start and tell the public how much debt we have on board due to these goons.
> Also how long it will take to feasably get back to where we were 5 years ago.




The other thing that p****S me off is those that say Labor has saved us from the effects of the GFC. If they get us back to where we were 5 years ago, with the surplus we had 5 years ago (not current account but public savings in the kitty) and we do not have some sort of recession, then they can claim they saved us from the effects of the GST. But all they have done up to now is the easy bit. They have spent our savings. They need to restore our savings to where they were before they can claim success.

If I am a household and have $100K in savings and then times turn bad. If I keep the food on the table by spending the $100K as well as spending another $200K that I borrowed, I can't go around boasting what a great financial manager I am because no one yet has gone hungry. It's when I no longer borrow more and return my savings to where they were and still keep food on the table that I should be able to start boasting about my financial prowess. 

The spending is the easy part. It p****s me off when Swan goes around saying they made the hard choices and claim credit for keeping us out of recession, when they have just done the easy bit. The hard bit is getting us back to where we were, but at best they can only keep us treading water where we currently are and with great pain. I don't understand why so many political and financial commentators allow Swan to get away with that claim.


----------



## dutchie

bellenuit said:


> The spending is the easy part. It p****s me off when Swan goes around saying they made the hard choices and claim credit for keeping us out of recession, when they have just done the easy bit. *The hard bit is getting us back to where we were*, but at best they can only keep us treading water where we currently are and with great pain. I don't understand why so many political and financial commentators allow Swan to get away with that claim.




My bold - that has always been the part that the Liberals have had to do.


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> The other thing that p****S me off is those that say Labor has saved us from the effects of the GFC. If they get us back to where we were 5 years ago, with the surplus we had 5 years ago (not current account but public savings in the kitty) and we do not have some sort of recession, then they can claim they saved us from the effects of the GST. But all they have done up to now is the easy bit. They have spent our savings. They need to restore our savings to where they were before they can claim success.
> 
> If I am a household and have $100K in savings and then times turn bad. If I keep the food on the table by spending the $100K as well as spending another $200K that I borrowed, I can't go around boasting what a great financial manager I am because no one yet has gone hungry. It's when I no longer borrow more and return my savings to where they were and still keep food on the table that I should be able to start boasting about my financial prowess.
> 
> The spending is the easy part. It p****s me off when Swan goes around saying they made the hard choices and claim credit for keeping us out of recession, when they have just done the easy bit. The hard bit is getting us back to where we were, but at best they can only keep us treading water where we currently are and with great pain. I don't understand why so many political and financial commentators allow Swan to get away with that claim.




You have hit on the head, exactly why they are in the position they are, in the polls.
Swan can talk all the crap he likes, at the end of the day voters know they blew lots of their money. The voters also know it will be them that have to pay it back.


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> The other thing that p****S me off is those that say Labor has saved us from the effects of the GFC. If they get us back to where we were 5 years ago, with the surplus we had 5 years ago (not current account but public savings in the kitty) and we do not have some sort of recession, then they can claim they saved us from the effects of the GST. But all they have done up to now is the easy bit. They have spent our savings. They need to restore our savings to where they were before they can claim success......



So true.  I doubt too many voters actually realise this, though.


----------



## joea

Well some results are starting to dribble through, post budget!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-12/post-budget-opinion-poll/4007244

One poll " I am less likely to vote labor", has achieved a 94.66% hit rate.

In a article in the Australian, one journalist has correctly summed up why the message from Labor is not coming through.
When asked a question, even a simple question, Labor MP's, Gillard and Swan do a "data dump" from a prepared speech.
Even if it could be a yes or no, it reverts to a dump.

If you think about it, this is right to the point. Wong and Combet especially.

Now it appears strange that they all do it, as if they have been instructed to do it.
It has two versions, 1. to campaign for Labor and 2. put down Abbott.

If I can find a version that will open, I will post it.
joea


----------



## joea

joea said:


> If I can find a version that will open, I will post it.
> joea




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...r-lost-for-words/story-e6frgd0x-1226353358494

This was on internet, so may open.
joea


----------



## Julia

Ms Gillard's rating is down 1 point since the budget.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-12/post-budget-opinion-poll/4007244


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> Now it appears strange that they all do it, as if they have been instructed to do it.
> joea




They have, it's a tactic to deal with every question without answering it.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> They have, it's a tactic to deal with every question without answering it.




Yes, and it looks like 96% of people have woken up to it all.

All Labor MP's get their media lines fresh every morning.


----------



## joea

Yeph!
And its about time Oakeshott and Windsor put up or shut up.
The voters are sick of these two "grandstanding".
I am sure the voter are seeing straight through these two at the moment.
joea


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> My bold - that has always been the part that the Liberals have had to do.




What selling another $200 + bil of public owned asset's then claiming economic genius.


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> The other thing that p****S me off is those that say Labor has saved us from the effects of the GFC. If they get us back to where we were 5 years ago, with the surplus we had 5 years ago (not current account but public savings in the kitty) and we do not have some sort of recession, then they can claim they saved us from the effects of the GST. But all they have done up to now is the easy bit. They have spent our savings. They need to restore our savings to where they were before they can claim success.




This is where you believe the Abbott propaganda at the peril of embarrassment.

Swan outside of GFC stimulus has actually held spending increases in percentage terms well below any any thing achieved by Costello and Howard where spending actually increased and stood at higher rates than currently.

The issue is on the revenue side which has dropped significantly unlike for Costello and Howard where it only ever increased during which time they handed out massive middle class welfare.


But hey don't let the facts get in the way


----------



## MrBurns

IFocus said:


> But hey don't let the facts get in the way




The only fact you need to get through your head is that Gillard and the entire Labor party is universally hated by millions of Australians for good reason.


----------



## Knobby22

MrBurns said:


> The only fact you need to get through your head is that Gillard and the entire Labor party is universally hated by millions of Australians for good reason.




That's not a fact, it's an exaggeration.


----------



## MrBurns

Knobby22 said:


> That's not a fact, it's an exaggeration.




The polls say different, so does every one I speak to.


----------



## Knobby22

Look up the definition of universally.


----------



## MrBurns

Knobby22 said:


> Look up the definition of universally.




Look up the definition of , you're a cheat , a liar and incompetent and you're out on you're ****.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Knobby22 said:


> Look up the definition of universally.




If I had read that comment earlier this week, I would have maintained my reaction that Knobby is 'splitting hairs', fighting the tide that is swamping the Gillard Government.

Then I spent 2 days in Canberra on Thursday and Friday, and all the people I spoke to were sprouting from their ivory towers about Gillard - she's tough, didn't lie, being bullied by Abbott...

Having left Canberra, by 'universally hated', I think the election result will show, like none in history, that you just cannot make the statement: "There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead" and then do the exact opposite.  

No matter what the circumstances.  If you can't form government, so be it.


----------



## IFocus

StumpyPhantom said:


> No matter what the circumstances.  If you can't form government, so be it.




Isn't that inscription is engraved on Abbott desk after he failed to form government after the last election?


----------



## IFocus

MrBurns said:


> The only fact you need to get through your head is that Gillard and the entire Labor party is universally hated by millions of Australians for good reason.





Same polls point out Abbot's not far behind for very good reasons, I am sure he will adjust that position to 1st once he wins the next drovers dog election and starts using Hockey's magic $50 billion calculator.

Still some of the unsightly infighting of late over the spoils may change that ..........signs no doubt of the growing arrogance within the born to rule brigade.


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> The issue is on the revenue side which has dropped significantly unlike for Costello and Howard where it only ever increased during which time they handed out massive middle class welfare.
> 
> 
> But hey don't let the facts get in the way




Ah, but isn't that exactly what Abbott said in his budget response. Instead of penalising the productive sector of the economy and redistributing to those who add little value, we should be increasing the size of the pie so that everyone gets more. Maybe the reason the revenue side has dropped is because Labor's policies discourage investment in the economy. You know what I mean, the big bad mining companies etc. etc.


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Same polls point out Abbot's not far behind for very good reasons, I am sure he will adjust that position to 1st once he wins the next drovers dog election and starts using Hockey's magic $50 billion calculator.
> 
> Still some of the unsightly infighting of late over the spoils may change that ..........signs no doubt of the growing arrogance within the born to rule brigade.




IFocus,the infighting you say is happeneing in the Coalition is a storm in a tea cup in comparision to what is about to take place in the Green/Labor left wing socialist Gillard governemnt.
After reading the attached link, we are about to see a catagory 5 cyclone as big as "Yasi" in the Lbaor Party and the warriors are very nervous.
My prediction!!!!!!!!An election before Xmas 2012.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ed-to-cut-greens/story-e6freooo-1226353848613


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> What selling another $200 + bil of public owned asset's then claiming economic genius.




But you fail to mention the reason that assets were sold.

Wasn't it because the libs keep inheriting massive debt from labor governments?

This one will be no exception.  I think it is part of their strategy to run the country into debt so the libs have to reign it back in which cripples their ability for new infrastructure, etc.

We need to G.R.O.A.N (Get Rid Of Alp Now) before they make this debt situation any worse which may force the sale of more assetts.

Mind you, the ABC could be a good one to go so that it never again provides tax payer funded propaganda for alp, imo of course.


----------



## IFocus

bellenuit said:


> Ah, but isn't that exactly what Abbott said in his budget response. Instead of penalising the productive sector of the economy and redistributing to those who add little value, we should be increasing the size of the pie so that everyone gets more. Maybe the reason the revenue side has dropped is because Labor's policies discourage investment in the economy. You know what I mean, the big bad mining companies etc. etc.





If your interested in the numbers read George Megalogenis from the Australian (I don't and wont subscribe to the Oz) he is one of the few jurnos to run the numbers for both sides of politics.

Here he states the obvious



> Abbott has to drop the fistful of dollars or risk letting down voters
> 
> * by: George Megalogenis
> * From: The Australian
> * May 12, 2012 12:00AM
> 
> 
> 
> ON Tony Abbott's first day as prime minister-elect -- a Sunday not too far away if he can convince the government to "finally blow its brains out", as one Labor person puts it -- the secretary of the Treasury, Martin Parkinson, will advise him that the revenue base has suffered a structural collapse since the global financial crisis.
> 
> The message can be simplified as follows: the high dollar is screwing the direct tax base (through lower company and capital gains tax collections) while the cautious consumer is screwing the indirect tax base (though weaker lower goods and services collections).





In the end its the world economy that decides our state of affairs not much else

As for adding value Abbott opposed company tax cuts but passed other measures from the mining tax and by all accounts with pass the budget go figure.


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Mind you, the ABC could be a good one to go so that it never again provides tax payer funded propaganda for alp, imo of course.





The ABC is attacked by the extremes from both sides of the political and social spectrum which indicates to me that they do an excellent job not that I watch the TV much at all (Like Laurie Oakes I never watch Bolt its just pointless).

I think people have become so brain washed by private vested interests theses days that they just rant what ever is fed to them (present company excluded of course)


----------



## StumpyPhantom

IFocus said:


> I think people have become so brain washed by private vested interests theses days that they just rant what ever is fed to them (present company excluded of course)




Ha Ha - I love this hypocrisy!

Come on IF, say a dozen good things about the Gillard government, so that we can work out whether you're ranting whatever is fed to you.

Now that's a real challenge, so don't let the 'present company' down!!


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> ...I think people have become so brain washed by private vested interests theses days that they just rant what ever is fed to them (present company excluded of course)





lol...Gillard speaks on TV regularly sprouting her stuff.  Her and her motley crew are putting voters off all by themselves it seems. No brain washing required...:

Most people here would read both sides of the story.  I read both from Bolt and Oakes - even Grattan at times in an effort to remain realistic and get the story from all sides.

However, IF, I think you have said you don't read Bolt's (and presumably anyone else like him) articles?  So how can you be properly informed if you are only hearing one side of the story?  Is it actually you that is being brainwashed to stick with this mob and keep sprouting their propaganda?

Problem is, most Aussie voters can see straight through the propaganda.  Much like a little kid who ate the chocolate and says he did not eat it.  But he has the evidence all round his mouth.  Aussie voters are good at telling truth from deception.  Nuff said...


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Mind you, the ABC could be a good one to go so that it never again provides tax payer funded propaganda for alp, imo of course.



Vehemently disagree, not that it would happen anyway.   There's certainly some Left bias at the ABC, specifically Radio National, but that apart their radio network alone imo provides an excellent variety of good stuff.  I'd go nuts without it.
I prefer radio to TV and commercial radio is abysmal stuff.



IFocus said:


> The ABC is attacked by the extremes from both sides of the political and social spectrum which indicates to me that they do an excellent job not that I watch the TV much at all (Like Laurie Oakes I never watch Bolt its just pointless).
> 
> I think people have become so brain washed by private vested interests theses days that they just rant what ever is fed to them (present company excluded of course)



I think you do the population a disservice here.  Most people are quite capable of observing the behaviour of politicians and drawing their own  conclusions.  Why should you consider yourself so brilliantly discerning but others not so?




sails said:


> Most people here would read both sides of the story.  I read both from Bolt and Oakes - even Grattan at times in an effort to remain realistic and get the story from all sides.



Imo Michelle Grattan is usually perceptive and pretty objective.  

Most of us have clear bias and this will filter whatever we read, rejecting those parts with which we don't agree.


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> Vehemently disagree, not that it would happen anyway.   There's certainly some Left bias at the ABC, specifically Radio National, but that apart their radio network alone imo provides an excellent variety of good stuff.




+1 agree.


----------



## Logique

Do as they might to the ABC, if they interfere with Emma Ayres and the ABC radio Classic FM program _Classic Breakfast_ - there'll be trouble.  

I feel sorry for those rural listeners unable to receive this program. 



> http://www.abc.net.au/classic/program/classicbreakfast/presenter/
> ...Emma teaches the cello to people of all ages....she firmly believes in our ability to learn an instrument at any age. It's simply the challenges which change!
> 
> These days Emma still cycles most places, often with a cello or viola strapped to her back. "I've recently started learning the ukulele - it's a fun sound, very versatile and cheap. Oh, and light!"


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Julia said:


> Vehemently disagree, not that it would happen anyway.   There's certainly some Left bias at the ABC, specifically Radio National, but that apart their radio network alone imo provides an excellent variety of good stuff.  I'd go nuts without it.
> I prefer radio to TV and commercial radio is abysmal stuff.
> 
> 
> I think you do the population a disservice here.  Most people are quite capable of observing the behaviour of politicians and drawing their own  conclusions.  Why should you consider yourself so brilliantly discerning but others not so?
> 
> 
> 
> Imo Michelle Grattan is usually perceptive and pretty objective.
> 
> Most of us have clear bias and this will filter whatever we read, rejecting those parts with which we don't agree.




Good on you Julia.

Very well put.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> , specifically Radio National,




You're not wrong there, heard Fran Kelly inreviewing some Lib in the last few days (I forget who) and the tone of her questions was downright insulting.


----------



## rumpole

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Good on you Julia.
> 
> Very well put.
> 
> gg




Yes well done Julia.

When the ABC is trying to avoid allegations of bias they put Chris Ulhmann on 7:30 report to insult the PM.

But  some less discerning people confuse insults with "perceptive questioning".


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> You're not wrong there, heard Fran Kelly inreviewing some Lib in the last few days (I forget who) and the tone of her questions was downright insulting.



Burnsie, I've also heard Fran Kelly being very tough on Labor politicians.
When she took over the Breakfast program her Left bias was very obvious, perhaps because it was at the height of the climate change confected panic.

But in the last year approx I've found her more prepared to hold both sides to account.

It must be a difficult role for someone who holds their own personal bias, and very few of us are actually intellectually objective.


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> Yes well done Julia.
> 
> When the ABC is trying to avoid allegations of bias they put Chris Ulhmann on 7:30 report to insult the PM.
> 
> But  some less discerning people confuse insults with "perceptive questioning".




And perhaps some people confuse refusal to answer a question with providing an adequate response.
Urlhman (how do you spell his name?) is in the role to get answers, so good for him if he gets tough when met with sustained evasion and mindless rhetoric.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Burnsie, I've also heard Fran Kelly being very tough on Labor politicians.
> When she took over the Breakfast program her Left bias was very obvious, perhaps because it was at the height of the climate change confected panic.
> 
> But in the last year approx I've found her more prepared to hold both sides to account.
> 
> It must be a difficult role for someone who holds their own personal bias, and very few of us are actually intellectually objective.




Fair enough, I never listen to redio natonal and just caught that interview as it was replayed on TV, she was too tough and not in a clever way, just not a good interview.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Do as they might to the ABC, if they interfere with Emma Ayres and the ABC radio Classic FM program _Classic Breakfast_ - there'll be trouble.



I like Julia Lester's weekdays "Drive" on Classic FM and 'Jazztrack' weekend evenings.


----------



## rumpole

Julia said:


> And perhaps some people confuse refusal to answer a question with providing an adequate response.
> Urlhman (how do you spell his name?) is in the role to get answers, so good for him if he gets tough when met with sustained evasion and mindless rhetoric.




As long as he applies the same standard to the  Opposition.

Is there a difference between "tough" and "rude" ?

Yes, there just is .


----------



## Miss Hale

Now we have Bill Shorten coming out and denying rumours about something I know not what because no rumours have been reported  Does anyone have the faintest clue what Shorten is on about?    Why would he deny something that's not even been reported?  Is this just a diversionary tactic, and how are we to know what he is on about when nothing has been reported .  I keep up with the news but I am totally confused on this one...


----------



## rumpole

Miss Hale said:


> I keep up with the news but I am totally confused on this one...




I am too . I saw mention of this on Insiders. Apparently there have been rumours circulating about the state of Bill Shorten's marriage which he found necessary to deny. 

I had not heard anything reported, and the smarter thing to do would have been to just ignore the usual gutter level rumour mongering that seems to be a part of life in Canberra.


----------



## Miss Hale

Thanks Rumpole, glad I'm not the only one baffled.  Quite bizzare.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Thanks Rumpole, glad I'm not the only one baffled.  Quite bizzare.




I was a bit bemused as well, I think they should shut Canberra down and move all the politicians to Melbourne or Sydney so they can be more in touch with the real world, Shorten probably thought rumors were all over the place but as it turns out only in Canberra. If he wasn't confused about it all why would he do a big spread in one on the newspapers with his wife saying how happy they were.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> I was a bit bemused as well, I think they should shut Canberra down and move all the politicians to Melbourne or Sydney so they can be more in touch with the real world,




For God sakes MrBurns do not let Gillard hear that comment, because she will immediately think, "look at all the jobs it will create". Add another $50 billion to the debt.

Shorten has eased back in the market and Simon Cream has moved in front of him.
Less think a minute, ...... Did not both Craig Thompson and Little Biily appear in the media with their wives of late. Interesting. In Thompson's case, I am not going to lie down statement!! In Shorten's case, if their is a vacancy for PM, (me, me, me). 

Budget..., watch what is happening!! First Labor went to the budget with half a policy on NDIS and now cannot fund it. Why?
Because Abbott agreed to it and they rushed in to have it endorsed as a Labor policy.

Sydney Airport. Much huff about the second site. This was to put doubt in the minds of the voters on O'Farrel's ability to be decisive. Sorry in the latest poll Barry improves his support. O'Farrel is ensuring the site is the correct one.

Labor are using the latest Budget policy's to campaign for the next election in states where they got a hiding. (Attempting to prevent further loss of Federal seats.)
They are in damage control. The Budget is their last chance!!

I will tip a major upheaval in the Labor camp prior to the end of the current financial year.
joea


----------



## sails

joea said:


> ...Sydney Airport. Much huff about the second site. This was to put doubt in the minds of the voters on O'Farrel's ability to be decisive. Sorry in the latest poll Barry improves his support. O'Farrel is ensuring the site is the correct one....




Slightly off topic, but relevant to your para above, Joea, and certainly not irrelevant to the Gillard labor government.  I was looking for a recent carbon tax poll and stumbled across this one from yesterday re NSW from the Poll Bludger.  Not sure about copyright so won't post the excerpt, however, O'Farrell  is 48% vs. Robinson's  28%  approval, and O’Farrell’s lead as preferred premier has increased from 52-15 to 56-14.

O'Farrell is obviously not doing as badly as laborites would perhaps like us to believe:

Newspoll: 63-37 to Coalition in NSW


----------



## Calliope

I have no doubt the poor little thing was set up...by Tony Abbott.  And in the words of Anthony Albanese, Windsor etc. she is entitled to "the presumption of innocence."


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> I have no doubt the poor little thing was set up...by Tony Abbott.  And in the words of Anthony Albanese, Windsor etc. she is entitled to "the presumption of innocence."





lol - yeah poor little thing - the same one who thumbed her nose at voters over carbon tax..

And without any proof that someone from the libs started the Shorten rumour, it is just as possible that an enemy of shorten within labor did so with the intent of blaming the libs...


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> And without any proof that someone from the libs started the Shorten rumour, it is just as possible that an enemy of shorten within labor did so with the intent of blaming the libs...



I still have no idea what the actual rumour was?
If it was something to be so concerned about, surely it would have been all across the news.
Sounds more like a confected ruse to divert attention away from Thomson and Slipper.


----------



## rumpole

> Sounds more like a confected ruse to divert attention away from Thomson and Slipper.




Oh really ? As if someone is going to draw attention to rumours about themselves and their marriage to take the heat away from people like Thomson and Slipper.

Get a grip Julia, you are slipping into the abyss.


----------



## bigdog

The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation


----------



## rumpole

> When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation




What half of the people ? The unemployment rate is 4.9% , which in reality is full employment. No-one is "bludging" on anyone else in this country. All right, VERY FEW.


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> Get a grip Julia, you are slipping into the abyss.



I agree.  I feel as though it's impossible not to slip into the abyss of despair at the political situation all round.  Very little optimism to be had imo.



rumpole said:


> What half of the people ? The unemployment rate is 4.9% , which in reality is full employment. No-one is "bludging" on anyone else in this country. All right, VERY FEW.



Whacko!   So meaningful when working for one hour per week counts as being employed.


----------



## rumpole

Julia said:


> I
> 
> Whacko!   So meaningful when working for one hour per week counts as being employed.




Apparently that is an international standard in the measurement of unemployment to enable valid comparisons between countries.


----------



## dutchie

Julia said:


> I still have no idea what the actual rumour was?
> If it was something to be so concerned about, surely it would have been all across the news.
> Sounds more like a confected ruse to divert attention away from Thomson and Slipper.




I think the rumour was that he had made one of his staffers pregnant. (don't quote me)


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> Apparently that is an international standard in the measurement of unemployment to enable valid comparisons between countries.




Rumpy - rubbish, surely thats wrong. 

Every night on the news people are losing their jobs, I know 2 insolvency people and they're flat out.

This country is going down the gurgler, just wait till the Carbon Tax hits........hopefully we have an election in time to stop it.


----------



## rumpole

MrBurns said:


> Rumpy - rubbish, surely thats wrong.
> 
> Every night on the news people are losing their jobs, I know 2 insolvency people and they're flat out.
> 
> This country is going down the gurgler, just wait till the Carbon Tax hits........hopefully we have an election in time to stop it.




Read this Burnsie

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-14/janda-doing-a-job-on-employment-figures/4009594?WT.svl=theDrum


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> Read this Burnsie
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-14/janda-doing-a-job-on-employment-figures/4009594?WT.svl=theDrum






Well that makes the figure meaningless.....totally......


----------



## rumpole

MrBurns said:


> Well that makes the figure meaningless.....totally......




It's been done the same way for years. If you can think of a better way, call the ABS


----------



## Calliope

What a pair of frauds Windsor and Oakeshott are. They are concerned about Thompson"s behaviour but are wedged in to support him otherwise they go down the gurgler with Gillard. To get around this they are trying to get a new code of conduct to bring people like Thomson and Slipper to account.

What a joke. If Windsor and Oakeshott were representing their electorate's wishes, instead of propping up the government all the nasties would be thrown out in the ensuing election.


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> It's been done the same way for years. If you can think of a better way, call the ABS




Whats their number, I'll just suggest they should vacate the building they are in so it can be rented out to give some value back to the taxpayer instead of producing BS like that which is a complete and utter waste of time.

If they can work out how many are working one hour a week they should be able to work out how many are full time and how many work at least 2 days a week. That might do it.


----------



## joea

Golly Gosh!

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...em-in-pms-office/story-e6freuyi-1226355160546

joea


----------



## moXJO

rumpole said:


> Oh really ? As if someone is going to draw attention to rumours about themselves and their marriage to take the heat away from people like Thomson and Slipper.
> 
> Get a grip Julia, you are slipping into the abyss.





Tip off to the tent embassy based on lies about Abbott ring a bell?


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> Tip off to the tent embassy based on lies about Abbott ring a bell?




Thank you, moXJO.  Exactly the sort of thing I had in mind but couldn't think of an example.
Make up some unlikely rumour about Shorten, set it alight in Canberra, and then imply that only Tony Abbott could have made it happen, presumably in order to malign Shorten's character.
As if Mr Abbott needs to do any such thing.  Too silly.


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> Well that makes the figure meaningless.....totally......






> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...WT.svl=theDrum ....The first of these is the participation rate. If, as occurred in the April figures, a large unemployment fall is matched by a decline in participation, that tells economists that much of the change was due to people giving up the search for work rather than people actually finding jobs...



On this subject, what about the people who have given up looking. Look at the regional unemployment rates in NSW and Vic, and tell those people they're fully employed!


----------



## Logique

rumpole said:


> ...No-one is "bludging" on anyone else in this country. All right, VERY FEW.



Let's ask 'working families' about that. They need secretaries to keep track of their burgeoning list of handouts. Sorry 'entitlements'.


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> Let's ask 'working families' about that. They need secretaries to keep track of their burgeoning list of handouts. Sorry 'entitlements'.




I see she got a boost in the polls, the ONLY reason would be cash in the bank, watch out for more of your cash being thrown away.


----------



## joea

rumpole said:


> It's been done the same way for years. If you can think of a better way, call the ABS




I have attempted to get a correlation of figures by ABS and Roy Morgan.
Contacted the local Fed MP. Sent emails to leading papers to follow it up.
Why is ABS around 5% unemployment, and Roy Morgan around 10%.
All to no avail.
What I now use is the trend, on the % movement.
i.e. The last drop in the ABS figure did not show any movement in Roy Morgan. So basically I believe there was no drop.

It is my firm belief if we leave Labor in power long enough, then the ABS unemployment figure will go negative. Then somebody may(just may) wake up, but I will not be putting money on it. i.e. more people in work than are available!!

In one document I chased up, it found the ABS figure of " those available to work" was inaccurate and it took in excess of a year to patch it up.

Now why was I concerned? The unemployment figure is used in the 'Rate Decisions", and I just thought it would help if it was accurate.

I can not accept that "part time jobs equate to full time jobs." But the market does, so whom am I to disagree.
joea


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> I see she got a boost in the polls, the ONLY reason would be cash in the bank, watch out for more of your cash being thrown away.




No. I think it is because people are waking up to that nasty Mr Rabbit for "setting up" Slipper, Thomson and now Shorten. What innocent party will he attack next.


----------



## Logique

Well said George Brandis:  







> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...edo-is-laughable/story-e6frgd0x-1226355234732
> 
> Of course, Gillard is happy to abandon the presumption of innocence when it suits her.
> 
> Julian Assange was afforded no presumption of innocence when she declared him””wrongly””to have broken Australian law… The Australian Defence Force Academy’s Bruce Kafer””against whom no allegations were made””enjoyed no presumption of innocence from the Gillard government last year..
> 
> ..Howard and Peter Reith were vouchsafed no presumption of innocence by the Labor Party over the “children overboard” allegations, nor Alexander Downer over the oil-for-food scandal. Of course, those gentlemen didn’t invoke the presumption of innocence, because they were confident that they had done no wrong.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> No. I think it is because people are waking up to that nasty Mr Rabbit for "setting up" Slipper, Thomson and now Shorten. What innocent party will he attack next.




You should put that stuff on YouTube it would get laughs from all over the globe

Ohh sorry you were being sarcastic, I'm a bit slow this morning, I've must have Wayne Swan syndrome....


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> No. I think it is because people are waking up to that nasty Mr Rabbit for "setting up" Slipper, Thomson and now Shorten. What innocent party will he attack next.




At last we know who that evil person was that used poor Craig's credit card, his license and his mobile (and then put them all back) and he also hypnotised Craig to take all that money out to pay for Craig's election campaign.

I had a sneaking suspicion it was him too (although..... he's not a union official  ...... who cares, it was him!)


----------



## Surly

Moe Szyslak: Immigants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them.

cheers
Surly


----------



## DB008

Stephen Mayne on QandA last night said something which l don't think Labor understand. You can even see Penny Wong shake her head in the background while Stephen Mayne says it. 

Along the lines of..."The longer they (ALP) stuff around with Thompson, the more damage the party does to themselves. The next election is going to be a wipe out like the recent state (NSW + QLD) elections. It will take a very long time to rebuild themselves and their brand."

How come the ALP can't see this? 
Are they that full of themselves? 
Delusions of grandeur?


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> Along the lines of..."The longer they (ALP) stuff around with Thompson, the more damage the party does to themselves. The next election is going to be a wipe out like the recent state (NSW + QLD) elections. It will take a very long time to rebuild themselves and their brand."
> 
> How come the ALP can't see this?
> Are they that full of themselves?
> Delusions of grandeur?




They got what they wanted from the budget, a lift in polls.
Now they are probably using a calculator to extrapolate how much money they need to hand out to beat Abbott.
Just remember its not the Coalition they are attempting to beat at the next election, its Abbott. (well they never mention anybody else).
joea


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> Stephen Mayne on QandA last night said something which l don't think Labor understand. You can even see Penny Wong shake her head in the background while Stephen Mayne says it.
> 
> Along the lines of..."The longer they (ALP) stuff around with Thompson, the more damage the party does to themselves. The next election is going to be a wipe out like the recent state (NSW + QLD) elections. It will take a very long time to rebuild themselves and their brand."
> 
> How come the ALP can't see this?
> Are they that full of themselves?
> Delusions of grandeur?



With Craig Thompson, poor Pen had to try and defend the indefensible. Copping it from all the panelists, you cound see in her body language that she knew it was a lost cause. 

One of the other panelists also made the observation that the claims against Craig Thompson are more than allegations, they are the formal findings of a government body.

She was much more comfortable when the discussion turned to the budget and got what was effectively a free kick at the end of the show with the final question from the audience (directed at Joe Hockey).


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> They got what they wanted from the budget, a lift in polls.
> Now they are probably using a calculator to extrapolate how much money they need to hand out to beat Abbott.
> Just remember its not the Coalition they are attempting to beat at the next election, its Abbott. (well they never mention anybody else).
> joea




Given that they ABSOLUTELY cannot afford another handout in 2013 Federal Budget because it would DESTROY the projected surplus, they must be expecting an election to be called before May 2013?

Or do you reckon they're just going to trash their projected surplus (as they have done this year's) in 2013 as well?


----------



## drsmith

That lift won't last.

With Gillard Labor it never does.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

drsmith said:


> That lift won't last.
> 
> With Gillard Labor it never does.




It needs to last long enough to deliver Gillard to the election.

It will be soooo disappointing to not be able to show her how we feel....


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> Given that they ABSOLUTELY cannot afford another handout in 2013 Federal Budget because it would DESTROY the projected surplus, they must be expecting an election to be called before May 2013?
> 
> Or do you reckon they're just going to trash their projected surplus (as they have done this year's) in 2013 as well?




StumpyP.
I reckon they are getting this handout, (out) quickly to allocate it to this financial year and budget. i.e.  the budget deficit that Swan said was going to be $26 Billion 6 month ago, and is now in excess of $44 billion and growing. With this "magic maths" of Swan's they just seem to move it forward or backward, depending on the strength and direction of the wind.
Millions are now being spent on educating the public about the handout. To me they are just fine tuning the next lot of handout prior to the next election.
Sportsbet has a deficit at $1.40 versus a surplus at $2.30.(measured next year.)

We must remember that their direction in giving handouts will bring no economic benefits to Australia(except on retail sales). However Swan has his vision set on "rate decreases" to further help the Australian battler.
My fear is, as more Australian become battlers, where does the money come from.
joea


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> I see she got a boost in the polls, the ONLY reason would be cash in the bank, watch out for more of your cash being thrown away.



 Agree that the handout will have had an effect on today's poll, but I suspect some voters are also taken in by the promise of a surplus and the ongoing belief that Labor saved us from the GFC.

I may have raised this before, but  the day after the Budget was delivered, the presenter on an ABC Local Radio network said it was good that Mr Swan had delivered a surplus.  (!)   

They've perhaps forgotten the unwanted, too expensive school halls, and the fires in the roof from the batts scheme.


----------



## joea

Well there will be plenty of entertainment tonight.

PM rallies Labor Troops for Poll fight...
Gillard blames poor standing on fear campaign, urges unionists to show "spine".

Bloody hell!! I will read a book tonight!! She has got a new "breath of wind".

joea


----------



## sails

Interesting to compare today's poll with the polls from 2007 when Howard tried to appeal to the people with a friendly budget while doing nothing to appease the anger over work choices.  The polls did increase a week or so after the budget and peaked about a week later and then flopped badly by the end of May 2007:

Budget was delivered on 8th May, 2007

Coalition and Labor primary votes:
Newspoll 13-15 April  35 50 
Newspoll 27-29 April 37 48 
Newspoll 11-13 May 36 50 
Newspoll 18-20 May 39 49 
Newspoll 21-24 May 39 47 
Newspoll 25-27 May 35 52 

2pp coalition:labor
Newspoll 13-15 April 41 59
Newspoll 27-29 April 43 57
Newspoll 11-13 May 41 59
Newspoll 18-20 May 43 57
Newspoll 21-24 May 45 55
Newspoll 25-27 May 40 60

And we know how this ended.

Source of above from Newspoll and the Australian: http://www.newspoll.com.au/cgi-bin/polling/display_poll_data.pl

And here is the PDF of "The Budget at a Glance" - makes for interesting reading when comparing to last week's budget:  http://australianpolitics.com/2007/05/08/peter-costello-2007-budget-speech.html


----------



## drsmith

Wind can come from more than one part of the human body.



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard says it distresses her that allegations about the conduct of certain members of the Health Services Union risk tarnishing the entire movement's reputation.




I'm sure it does. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-15/gillard-disgusted-by-hsu-scandal/4012312


----------



## StumpyPhantom

drsmith said:


> Wind can come from more than one part of the human body.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure it does.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-15/gillard-disgusted-by-hsu-scandal/4012312




Is this the real or the fake Julia?  Which Julia said Thomson was entitled to the presumption of innocence?

Somoeone needs to tell Gillard that her electorate is entitled to the presumption of a brain.


----------



## joea

Interesting graphs on:
Tax and expenditure.

:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-08/budget-2012-tax-receipts-vs-expenditure/3999170

and forecasts vs reality.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-...reality-budget-deficits-and-surpluses/3999162

joea


----------



## joea

Well over the last few days we have witnessed the message going out to the Labor union members. I am confused what the message was or if it is supposed to be a collection of the speakers.
Kelty appeared to have the integrity, Shorten pointed to the alternative way and good old Bob was there to teach them the words of the union song.

If the union members are as confused as the public, we can all understand why some of the major concerns in politics cannot be resolved.
Its simple, the driver is unnamed, the direction has not been finalised and  they are unsure  what vehicle to board. Because the destination is so hazy I will just go with Richo.(in the australian "Naked hostility is what the MP's faced". When they went door to door.
joea


----------



## IFocus

Fancy that




> Porter a Swan in disguise
> 
> Christian Porter is obviously masquerading as a younger, better dressed version of Wayne Swan.
> 
> The Budget handed down by the WA Treasurer could have been delivered by Mr Swan for all the moaning about how someone took away his revenue.
> 
> In the case of Mr Swan, his revenues - across company tax, across income tax, across capital gains tax - have been written down by about $150 billion.
> 
> The change in the economy since the Great Recession means that the days enjoyed by Peter Costello, when he couldn't shovel out the cash he was collecting fast enough, are well and truly over.
> 
> It's a boom but there's no boom in revenue, cries Mr Swan. Mr Porter faces a similar situation.





http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/13714784/porter-a-swan-in-disguise/


----------



## DB008

Another week, another $x.x Billion.


11-05





18-05



http://www.aofm.gov.au/


----------



## StumpyPhantom

A GILLARD SPEECH IN MY DREAMS?​
I'm bothered, distressed at times to see the viciousness in the electorate that awaits Gillard (including that which I sense in myself).  

I've satisfied myself that it's not because she's our first female PM, or that she is not married to (but living with) the 'first bloke' whilst oposing gay marriage, has red hair, or speaks to us like we're in primary school.

So it's down to the broken promise.  In that situation, would it remove the viciousness if she got on national television to make this broadcast:

*My fellow Australians, it is time I came clean with the electorate.  I was an ambitious and hard-working Deputy PM who allowed my own self-belief and my comrades' hatred of Kevin Rudd to take the opportunity to depose a first-term Prime Minister.

In retrospect, I should have been the loyal deputy to the end, and if we lost the 2010 election, sought to have become Opposition Leader at that time.

That election result panicked me and my self-belief into entering secret deals, with the Greens, Wilkie, the independents - anyone who would assist me in living my dream of being the first female PM elected in her own right (so I could move into the Lodge).

I honestly meant "There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead", but circumstances have conspired against me.  For all my famed negotiating skills, I should have held out knowing that the Greens would never side with Abbott, and go back to another election if need be.  But I didn't want to risk the dream.

So the rest is history, as they say.  But here I am, before you, admitting to my mistakes and coming clean.

Now, moving forward, can we just proceed to the next election without all this venom against me?*


----------



## sails

StumpyPhantom said:


> ...So it's down to the broken promise.  In that situation, would it remove the viciousness if she got on national television to make this broadcast...





Stumpy, I don't think it would matter how much she backflipped now. She's had around eighteen months to show she is listening to the people.  IMO, she has really blown trust now. 

And,  what about the memory of Gillard and her labor MPs dancing in parliament when they got carbon tax legislated against the will of the majority.  Sickening.

However, I think there just might be dancing in the streets when she and her carbon tax are booted out for good.


----------



## Julia

StumpyPhantom said:


> A GILLARD SPEECH IN MY DREAMS?​
> I'm bothered, distressed at times to see the viciousness in the electorate that awaits Gillard (including that which I sense in myself).
> 
> I've satisfied myself that it's not because she's our first female PM, or that she is not married to (but living with) the 'first bloke' whilst oposing gay marriage, has red hair, or speaks to us like we're in primary school.
> 
> So it's down to the broken promise.  In that situation, would it remove the viciousness if she got on national television to make this broadcast:....



It would be worth a try I suppose.  But haven't we more or less heard it all before?
Remember the speech about 'the real Julia' where she told us we hadn't seen the real person but we would thenceforth?  I don't recall anything changing.

Imo it's way too late for her.  People are just not listening to her.  The sense of outrage and hurt, exacerbated by the disgust at Thomson and Slipper has a momentum of its own.  I can't see any action by any member of the government making any difference now.

The only thing the government has going for it, imo, is the public's lack of conviction that the Opposition will be their salvation.


----------



## Glen48

Lloyd interviewed a number of victims whose lives had been ruined by the vast, swooshing wind towers looking over their homes. They found sleep almost impossible; they couldn’t concentrate; they had night sweats, headaches, palpitations, heart trouble. Their chickens were laying eggs without yolks; their ewes were giving birth to deformed lambs; their once-active dogs spent their days staring blankly at the wall. The damage, it seems, is caused not so much by the noise you can hear but by what you can’t hear: the infrasonic waves that attack the balance mechanism in the ear and against which not even home insulation can defend you. Its effects can be felt more than 10km away.

Inspired by Lloyd’s article, I went to investigate and was heartbroken by what I found. Until you’ve seen what it can do to people, it’s easy to dismiss wind turbine syndrome as a hypochondriac’s charter or an urban myth. But it’s real all right. Waterloo felt like a ghost town: shuttered houses and a dust-blown aura of sinister unease, as in a horror movie when something dreadful has happened to a previously ordinary, happy settlement and at first you’re not sure what. Then you look up on to the horizon and see them, turning slowly in the breeze . . .

Even more shocking than this, though, were my discoveries about the finance arrangements and behaviour of the wind farm companies. What we have here, I believe, is the biggest and most outrageous public affairs scandal of the 21st century ”” one in which the Gillard government is implicated and that far exceeds in seriousness and scope of the Slipper or Thomson sideshows.

At the heart of this scandal are the union superannuation funds that are using the wind farm scam as a kind of government-endorsed Ponzi scheme to fill their coffers at public expense. One of the biggest wind farm developers ”” Pacific Hydro ”” is owned by the union superfund Members Equity Bank. To meet its carbon reduction quotas, we’re told, Australia needs to build about 10,000 new wind turbines like the ones that have destroyed Waterloo (and dozens of communities like it from NSW to South Australia).

The figures are mind-boggling. Each of those turbines will cost about $3 million, which means $30 billion even before you’ve started building the power lines. And where’s this money coming from? The consumer, of course ”” mostly via tariffs whacked on to the price of conventional, fossil-fuel energy prices, in the form of payouts called Renewable Energy Certificates.

Note that wind turbines produce very little power. Because wind is intermittent, they operate at between one-fifth and one-third of their capacity, meaning they are erratic, unreliable and have to be fully backed up by conventional “black” (mostly coal-fuelled) power. Where the money is to be made is through the REC subsidy. A 3MW wind turbine that generates (at most) $150,000 worth of electricity a year is eligible for guaranteed subsidies of $500,000 a year. A ridgeline hosting 20 or 30 turbines generates very little power ”” but an awful lot of free cash for those lucky enough to get their snouts in the trough.

If the unions were merely exploiting government environmental legislation to milk the taxpayer it would be bad enough: but what makes the wind farm scam so scandalous are the public health issues. Why aren’t we more aware of these? Because there have been cover-ups on an epic scale. The owners on whose land the turbines are built are subject to rigorous gagging orders (from law firms such as Julia Gillard’s ex-company, Slater & Gordon); tame experts are paid huge sums to testify that there are no health implications; inquiries are rigged; victims are rehoused and silenced with million-dollar payoffs. The global wind farm industry ”” a cash cow for everyone from Labor’s unions to the mafia ”” is so massive it can afford it.

Meanwhile the rest of us lose. Communities are divided, landscapes blighted, birds and bats sliced and diced, property values destroyed, lives ruined to deal with a “problem” ”” anthropogenic CO2 causing “global warming” ”” which most current evidence tells us doesn’t even exist.

As a New South Wales sheep farmer fighting tooth and nail to stop a wind farm development near his beloved home told me the other day in trenchant style: “The wind-farm buiness is bloody well near a pedophile ring. They’re f . . king our families and knowingly doing so.”

.


----------



## springhill

Glen48 said:


> Lloyd interviewed a number of victims whose lives had been ruined by the vast, swooshing wind towers looking over their homes. They found sleep almost impossible; they couldn’t concentrate; they had night sweats, headaches, palpitations, heart trouble. Their chickens were laying eggs without yolks; their ewes were giving birth to deformed lambs; their once-active dogs spent their days staring blankly at the wall. The damage, it seems, is caused not so much by the noise you can hear but by what you can’t hear: the infrasonic waves that attack the balance mechanism in the ear and against which not even home insulation can defend you. Its effects can be felt more than 10km away.




You, sir, are a wind power DENIER!


----------



## DB008

Hi Glen, 
Can you please start to put some links into your posts please....


----------



## rumpole

As wind turbines are cropping up all over the world, I wonder why they haven't provoked an international outcry if these allegations are true.

 I live within 10km from a wind farm and I've noticed no effects at all, nor has the issue been prominent among people who live nearer the turbines than I do.

Some evidence has to be produced to back up outrageous claims.


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> Hi Glen,
> Can you please start to put some links into your posts please....




If you google "infrasonic waves", and research it for two weeks you will find!
Yes there is a problem 50%, versus, No there is not a problem 50%.

So it all comes down to research funds and business. "peoples health" and lives. Whats that?

No different to carbon tax. Just different sides fighting over the dollars.

More people will learn "that they are here on a fly by", but "god dammit" while you are here, you will live by the government rules and  beliefs. The rules just vary slightly depending of which party is in power!!.
joea


----------



## noco

It is comprehensible that while we have people condeming this Gillard Government, and I might add it is well justified,  they are also condeming the opposition lead by Abbott who may be the next Prime Minister before Abbott and his team have a chance to prove themselves.
If they do succeed at the next election, whenever that maybe, and they default on there promises or take us in the wrong direction, I will be in the front line to condemn and criticize them.
Until then, please give them a fair go.


----------



## rumpole

noco said:


> It is comprehensible that while we have people condeming this Gillard Government, and I might add it is well justified,  they are also condeming the opposition lead by Abbott who may be the next Prime Minister before Abbott and his team have a chance to prove themselves.
> If they do succeed at the next election, whenever that maybe, and they default on there promises or take us in the wrong direction, I will be in the front line to condemn and criticize them.
> Until then, please give them a fair go.




I'm afraid I can't vote for a party whose stated policy of cutting government spending to the extent that they propose will take so much money out of the economy that it will lead us into recession, a la David Cameron in the UK.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Until then, please give them a fair go.




If you are referring to my comment, it relates to wind farms not the government.
Regardless of what government is in power it will be still be 50/50, as per the post.

In relation to the carbon tax, common sense will prevail with the coalition in power.
However:::
The debate on CO2 will continued to be discussed at the golf and bowls club, regardless of a complete lack of understanding by the public.
joea


----------



## joea

Gillard moves to $2.40 for PM. Rudd $2.50 and Shorten out to $9. at sportsbet on next election.
joea


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Fell asleep in front of the telly last night and got woken to the shrill voice of Gillard at question time.

You've got to hand it to her.  She carries herself with supreme self-belief and arrogance and/or she just doesn't get it that outside of the chamber, she's just not well liked.

Not an ounce of humility.  Still banging on about the clean enery future she's imposing on the electorate.


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> Fell asleep in front of the telly last night and got woken to the shrill voice of Gillard at question time.
> 
> You've got to hand it to her.  She carries herself with supreme self-belief and arrogance and/or she just doesn't get it that outside of the chamber, she's just not well liked.
> 
> Not an ounce of humility.  Still banging on about the clean enery future she's imposing on the electorate.




" A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul".
George Bernard Shaw.
Well she is going to be pretty active as "Paul" in Qld is only 23%.
joea


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> " A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul".
> George Bernard Shaw.
> Well she is going to be pretty active as "Paul" in Qld is only 23%.
> joea




All her Dorothy Dixer questions from her own side at Question Time were from Queensland members, so she must be feeling what you're saying.


----------



## rumpole

StumpyPhantom said:


> All her Dorothy Dixer questions from her own side at Question Time were from Queensland members, so she must be feeling what you're saying.




I'm getting sick of questions like "how is the government spreading the benefits of the mining boom" ? Treasurer answers and sits down . Dorothy asks supplementary "what does it mean for my electorate of Goodnawatha beyond black stump" ?

Who gives a stuff ?


----------



## dutchie

Australia's worst PM's

1. Gillard  (is not smart enough to be a PM - is similar to Rudd - delusional )
2. Rudd  (thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread - very delusional)
3. Whitlam (what was he thinking??)


----------



## StumpyPhantom

rumpole said:


> I'm getting sick of questions like "how is the government spreading the benefits of the mining boom" ? Treasurer answers and sits down . Dorothy asks supplementary "what does it mean for my electorate of Goodnawatha beyond black stump" ?
> 
> Who gives a stuff ?




Even Tony Windsor had that same choreographed Dorothy look on his face when he asked a question, and when they flashed back to him listening to the answer.

His conspiracy with the Labor Government will be seen by history as one of the big betrayals.


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> You've got to hand it to her.  She carries herself with supreme self-belief and arrogance and/or *she just doesn't get it *that outside of the chamber, she's just not well liked.
> .




I think this goes to show that Abbott DOES get it because he was spot on when he said *she just doesnt get it*, spot on.



rumpole said:


> I'm getting sick of questions like "how is the government spreading the benefits of the mining boom" ? Treasurer answers and sits down . Dorothy asks supplementary "what does it mean for my electorate of Goodnawatha beyond black stump" ?
> Who gives a stuff ?




Me too, it's a blasted waste of time, and NO ONE gives a stuff.


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> I think this goes to show that Abbott DOES get it because he was spot on when he said *she just doesnt get it*, spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, it's a blasted waste of time, and NO ONE gives a stuff.




More importantly its a waste of taxpayers money!

So why on earth do we go through with this charade in parliament? Get rid of question time (or at least dorothy dixer questions).


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> More importantly its a waste of taxpayers money!
> 
> So why on earth do we go through with this charade in parliament? Get rid of question time (or at least dorothy dixer questions).




I think there should be no questions at all, just supply each side with 5 dozen cream pies and let them go for it, might be worth watching then.

I'd love to see Albanese, Gillard and Swan get one right in the mooch.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> I think this goes to show that Abbott DOES get it because he was spot on when he said *she just doesnt get it*, spot on.




Mr Burns
I believe he does get it as well.
We the public are wondering why this fiasco with Thompson cannot be cleaned up.
Something is going on in the background that we are not aware of.
Possibly the following  link may supply some of the answers. I have not checked if this link has been provided before.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/whos-pulling-whose-string-20120522-1z33k.html

joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> Mr Burns
> I believe he does get it as well.
> We the public are wondering why this fiasco with Thompson cannot be cleaned up.
> Something is going on in the background that we are not aware of.
> Possibly the following  link may supply some of the answers. I have not checked if this link has been provided before.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/whos-pulling-whose-string-20120522-1z33k.html
> 
> joea




There's no doubt the fish rots from the head but the depth of the corruption overall needs a Royal Commission.

(love the credit card ad in the middle of the article)


----------



## noco

dutchie said:


> More importantly its a waste of taxpayers money!
> 
> So why on earth do we go through with this charade in parliament? Get rid of question time (or at least dorothy dixer questions).




Perhaps if we had an unbiased speaker, he/she should instruct the Minister to resume their seat if they stray from the question. Either give a correct answer or sit down and shut up. Only then would we have some discipline in receiving correct answers.
I noted Slipper did do this on a couple of occassions and even threw Swan out for an hour.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Gillard's reported state of 'fury' at the striking up of the Enterprise Migration Agreement at the Roy Hill project is a joke.

This EMA proposition didn't come down in the last shower.  It's been government policy for at least 12 months and a number of mega-projects are negotiating their own EMA's.

It's just that the desperate Gillard/Swan "death spiral" of the last few months which conjured up this anti-billionaire rhetoric coincided with the EMA being struck up by a Rinehart owned project.  That's what she's furious at.

She would have preferred a "Woodside" or "Origin Energy" of even "Chevron" (which is overseas owned).  That's how silly all this has become.  The unconvincing struggle to find a Labor-only narrative in this anti-billionaire rant (query whether it is better than the embarrasing "We are us" at the last Labor conference) is just cover for this woman not having any sense of Labor tradition or history, but desperately trying to save the legacy of being Australia's first female PM.

It's gone, I'm afraid.  It's gone.  It's not in the heart of the interchangeable Kevin "greatest moral challenge-cum-economic conservative-cum-socialist spendthrift" Rudd either.

Only a new, compassionate Labor Party drawn from small business and separate from the unions will do, but it will take years.  Or maybe it won't, given how many of them will be despatched at the next election.  They can afford to concentrate on ideals because it will be a long time before they're again within cooee of the Treasury benches.

Hopefully we would have paid off their debt by then.


----------



## noco

StumpyPhantom said:


> Hopefully we would have paid off their debt by then.




Yes, then in 10 or 15 years time a new generation who does not follow Labor's history of economic bad management will vote Labor back in and the cycle will start all over again with "IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE".


----------



## StumpyPhantom

noco said:


> Yes, then in 10 or 15 years time a new generation who does not follow Labor's history of economic bad management will vote Labor back in and the cycle will start all over again with "IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE".




Those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them...


----------



## Logique

dutchie said:


> Australia's worst PM's
> 
> 1. Gillard  (is not smart enough to be a PM - is similar to Rudd - delusional )
> 2. Rudd  (thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread - very delusional)
> 3. Whitlam (what was he thinking??)



Whitlam came in from a long period of the ALP in the wilderness, and was impatient for change. Gillard has had to deal with minority govt, but probably should never have been there, only won on a gimmick.

The one most culpable is Rudd, ironically the one they now want to bring back. Labor under Rudd had it all and blew it. But Rudd doesn't shoulder all the blame for this, not by a long stretch. Mind you, fancy taking Julia Gillard's political advice on the emissions trading scheme, or any other policy issue.


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> Whitlam came in from a long period of the ALP in the wilderness, and was impatient for change. Gillard has had to deal with minority govt, but probably should never have been there, only won on a gimmick.
> 
> The one most culpable is Rudd, ironically the one they now want to bring back. Labor under Rudd had it all and blew it. But Rudd doesn't shoulder all the blame for this, not by a long stretch. Mind you, fancy taking Julia Gillard's political advice on the emissions trading scheme, or any other policy issue.




Rudd's lucky, Gillard makes him look good.

I don't think they're under any illusions at the ALP, if they bring Rudd back it will be temporary to prop up support as much as possible ,especially in Qld, before the election.

He won't last long aftere that, if they bring him back at all, I mean they look foolish enough as it is.


----------



## joea

Logique said:


> Gillard has had to deal with minority govt, but probably should never have been there, only won on a gimmick.




Gillard "purchased" the minority government by giving in to their costly demands.
That was mistake one, as none would have gone with Abbott anyway.
Then the lies started and it was down hill from there.

Wilkie is a little grub, Windsor is on his last term. That means if anybody on the crossbench is to gain in the future I would think it would have to be Oakeshott.

So he will be the one trying to stay in politics. However his words on what we should do now to shape education in 50 years time appear out of step with reality.
In 50 years time they will probably be given a memory enhancement.
It certainly will not be an education as it now exists, as nobody will be able to pay for it.

So basically if Labor is to change its leader(againnn..), they will have to deal with Oakeshott, who is probably running up a list of what he wants and what he wants to improve the second time round.
It just keeps getting to be a bigger joke!
joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Wilkie is a little grub, Windsor is on his last term. That means if anybody on the crossbench is to gain in the future I would think it would have to be Oakeshott.
> 
> joea




As I mentioned on a previous post, I understand Oakeshott has his hands tied untill August. If there is an election before August 2012, Oakeshott will lose all of his parliamentary entitlements.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> As I mentioned on a previous post, I understand Oakeshott has his hands tied untill August. If there is an election before August 2012, Oakeshott will lose all of his parliamentary entitlements.




noco
I could live with that.
Between September and November will do.
joea


----------



## dutchie

joea said:


> Wilkie is a little grub, Windsor is on his last term. That means if anybody on the crossbench is to gain in the future I would think it would have to be Oakeshott.
> 
> 
> joea




Wilkie reminds me of the Black Night in the Monty Python sketch - every time Julia plays him for a sucker (and she has often enough), he makes excuses and carries on regardless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mjEcj8KpuJw


Wilkie is a non entity who will be well and truly forgotten at the next election no matter what he does in the meantime.

Windsor has betrayed his electorate and is gone, even if he does not retire (disgracefully). 

Oakeshott also betrayed his electorate and will be resoundedly defeated at the next election if he is dumb enough to contest his seat. It will not matter how he acts from now on, whether negatively or positively - he is gone (and good riddance)


----------



## Logique

This sort of commentary from (yes) Lenore Taylor in the 'Love Media', probably signals the end of the section.



> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...g-the-truth-20120527-1zd76.html#ixzz1w6BtAt3n
> THERE are two explanations for the curious case of the Prime Minister and the Gina Rinehart workforce deal: that the government is utterly dysfunctional or that Julia Gillard has stretched the truth. Or possibly both at the same time.
> 
> Gillard appears to be encouraging the conclusion that her government is dysfunctional. She told furious union leaders on Friday that she had not known about the deal until Wednesday.......That amounts to an accusation that the Prime Minister chose to stretch the truth and blame her ministers because a government policy got a less than enthusiastic reception from her key union backers.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...g-the-truth-20120527-1zd76.html#ixzz1w7L7PeCX


----------



## joea

Rudd at $2, Gillard drifted out to $2.70 today for PM.
joea


----------



## MrBurns

My contacts tell me Rudd is in, Carbon Tax dumped and straight to an election.
They'll lose but as much as under the guidance of Madam Lash.


----------



## Logique

The Whitlam government had the Khemlani affair as a scandal. But this government is not a patch on Gough Whitlam's, which stood for something apart from power at any cost. 

'When we're in charge, things will be different' - it's beginning to dawn on Australian electors, to their horror


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> My contacts tell me Rudd is in, Carbon Tax dumped and straight to an election.
> They'll lose but as much as under the guidance of Madam Lash.




So will Swan get out his trophy, polish it up, show Rudd and say "Can I be the treasurer please?" After all this is all about credentials!!
joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> So will Swan get out his trophy, polish it up, show Rudd and say "Can I be the treasurer please?" After all this is all about credentials!!
> joea




No no no after they lose Slipper will be leader of Labor with Craig Thompson as Treasurer.


----------



## joea

Any punters here.
I think $3.50 for an election prior to Christmas is good value. What say yee?
Australia is starting to fall around our ears. Polls tomorrow I think.
Seriously this has to stop, and quickly.
joea


----------



## joea

Something is not right!
Every time we have another major loss of jobs, or disruption in the Government, we have the following type of media release.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...er-upbeat-view-of-economy-20120528-1zf0m.html

So which one is right, or they both correct.
If all this is business as usual, why is the government so unpopular.??
Why is the economy being defended so much?

joea


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> My contacts tell me Rudd is in, Carbon Tax dumped and straight to an election.
> They'll lose but as much as under the guidance of Madam Lash.



 Someone spends too much time listening to Tony Delroy's quiz.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Someone spends too much time listening to Tony Delroy's quiz.




Never heard of him but I like him already


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Never heard of him but I like him already



 Sorry.  I shouldn't have made the assumption.
Madam Lash is the (probably fictitious) person who writes the questions for Tony Delroy's after midnight quiz on ABC Local Radio network.
Have a listen sometime.  I think you'd enjoy it.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Sorry.  I shouldn't have made the assumption.
> Madam Lash is the (probably fictitious) person who writes the questions for Tony Delroy's after midnight quiz on ABC Local Radio network.
> Have a listen sometime.  I think you'd enjoy it.




Madam Lash was someone I would associate with Craig Thompson

Barry Humphries on Q&A great


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Gillard's personal rating up quite a few points today.  That's great - I'll take anything that increases her chances of facing the electorate at the next election.


----------



## MrBurns

StumpyPhantom said:


> Gillard's personal rating up quite a few points today.  That's great - I'll take anything that increases her chances of facing the electorate at the next election.




Yes I guess you'd have to look at how much that cost the taxpayer in handouts.

I feel sorry for Abbott, I think he's a good man but the public just don't warm to him, just goes to show you have to be personable not just capable and decent.


----------



## MrBurns

And todays stuff up is........(drum roll).............



> Army admits Defence cuts expensive, dangerous
> 
> The Chief of the Army has conceded that one of the Federal Government's Defence cuts will expose troops to greater harm and be more expensive over the long term.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-29/army-admits-defence-cuts-expensive-dangerous/4039552


----------



## numbercruncher

More Chinese Boots that the soles fall out of hey ?

Well we might have to bring all our troops home and be a Defence Force instead ! or we could just pay the US to be our bodyguards


----------



## moXJO

thongs will now be standard army issue


----------



## noco

StumpyPhantom said:


> Gillard's personal rating up quite a few points today.  That's great - I'll take anything that increases her chances of facing the electorate at the next election.




Well, who would not be popular with all the hand outs. 

It's like giving kids a bag of lollies.

In our recent local election in Townsville, the new Labor Mayor (sorry independant)
Jenny Hill promised everyone a freeze in rates and a refund of $103 in their water rates with the full knowledge she would not have a Labor team to back her. She won the mayoral postion by handing out sweetners. She also put up another Labor (sorry independant) Mayoral candidate who polled 17% of the vote and guess where his preferences went. The non Labor Mayoral candidate lost by 2 %. Now she finds it would have cost Townsville $18,000,000 and the 7 non Labor councillors out of 10 look like refusing her hare brain scheme on common sense grounds. Less roads, water and sewerage would have resulted.

So, the naive swallow these hand outs and say Gillard's great and up goes the polls.


----------



## sails

Despite Gillard's crowing about her improvement in Newspoll yesterday, there were two other polls which also came out and yet we hear little about them.  Essential Media has 2pp as 57:43 to the coalition and Roy Morgan has labor on 27.5% primary vote and 61.5% : 38.5% to the coalition.  

http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-118

A Chart from Roy Morgan which also shows how much better labor was polling under Rudd in 2010 than under Gillard now:







http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2012/4782/


----------



## joea

Sails
Well done .
I  believe that line of polling, and, with out carrying on to much about it, I am sure 
Roy Morgan is closer to the mark with unemployment.
Because the ABS are miles out.:
To be fair, if we averaged them both we would be closer to the mark
i.e 4.9 + 9.3 = 14.2 over 2  = 7.1%.
Of course that is 44.90% higher than what the government is quoting.
joea


----------



## MrBurns

Gillard addressed the miners yesterday and told them they don't own the minerals, the people do.
She said they work but do does the panel beater down the road so he should share in the mining boom ?????????????????? yeah sure.

Just how long has the principal that the minerals do not belong to the miners been held and if it's true why hasn't it been acted upon before half of WA has been exported to China.

OR - is this view now fashionable because Gillard has wasted the surpus and needs more cash to buy votes.


----------



## rumpole

> Just how long has the principal that the minerals do not belong to the miners been held and if it's true why hasn't it been acted upon before half of WA has been exported to China.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mining_law

History of mining law

The first Australian mining laws were enacted in 1851.[1] Before that, ownership of minerals and petroleum passed to those who were granted title to land by the colonial governors according to common law concepts, except the right to "Royal Mines" (the precious metals of gold and silver) which remained vested in the Crown by virtue of Royal prerogative. From 1855, colonial parliaments legislated for ownership of minerals to be retained by the Crown in future grants of freehold title. Thus, the situation developed where throughout Australia, the Crown in right of the State owns nearly all the minerals.

More at the link...


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Just how long has the principal that the minerals do not belong to the miners been held and if it's true why hasn't it been acted upon before half of WA has been exported to China.




MrBurns
I was thinking about this myself.
It just does not stand up to scrutiny.
The following link, if it opens, suggest something of a bigger order.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/labor_china_food_bowl_plan_VOZQjQXmlHZ1Pay7ExK74J

joea


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mining_law
> 
> History of mining law
> 
> The first Australian mining laws were enacted in 1851.[1] Before that, ownership of minerals and petroleum passed to those who were granted title to land by the colonial governors according to common law concepts, except the right to "Royal Mines" (the precious metals of gold and silver) which remained vested in the Crown by virtue of Royal prerogative. From 1855, colonial parliaments legislated for ownership of minerals to be retained by the Crown in future grants of freehold title. Thus, the situation developed where throughout Australia, the Crown in right of the State owns nearly all the minerals.
> 
> More at the link...




If the miners do not own the minerals, or own the right to the proceeds of sales, something has been very wrong for a very long time and I just wonder who,* in the background *has got terribly wealthy on the back of this.

If this is the case it cant be incompetence, it MUST be corruption at Govt level.




joea said:


> MrBurns
> I was thinking about this myself.
> It just does not stand up to scrutiny.
> The following link, if it opens, suggest something of a bigger order.
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/labor_china_food_bowl_plan_VOZQjQXmlHZ1Pay7ExK74J
> 
> joea




Australia is a very large underutilised country full of a soft population who expect everything for nothing, we are ripe for a hardened society to take us over and China is the obvious one to do it.

To use us as a food bowl makes sense if we keep control of it, yeah fat chance.

If this were to happen the US would see this as losing their grip on this region and that would be a bad thing for us, I mean who do you trust the USA or China, neither ?

Perhaps but I'd rather be ruled by the USA than any Asian nation.

We need stronger polititians.............need and get are two different things.

If Gillard hadn't stuffed everything else up along the way perhaps she might have qualified, what she now espouses about the principal of mining wealth seems to make sense , but why now and how much am I owed in back royalties.


----------



## rumpole

> If the miners do not own the minerals, or own the right to the proceeds of sales, something has been very wrong for a very long time and I just wonder who, in the background has got terribly wealthy on the back of this.
> 
> If this is the case it cant be incompetence, it MUST be corruption at Govt level.




The miners own the proceeds of the minerals sales, they pay royalties to the States for the right to extract and sell the minerals.


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> The miners own the proceeds of the minerals sales, they pay royalties to the States for the right to extract and sell the minerals.




Then is Gilard trying to change the rules ?

It seems yes.

Then the royalty probably isnt enough, just hike it up and let the Commonwealth impose a levy on the states (WA) same result.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Then is Gilard trying to change the rules ?




We would have to be naive if we think Gillard has considered that she and Labor will not win the next election.
We would also be naive to think that Gillard could implement all her policy's in one term.

So I believe she is chasing the "booty" to support her policy's, and the second term. I believe Labor has concerns about foreign investment doubt towards Australia.
So if you would want to resolve it, go with China in as many projects as possible.
She is chasing a "cash cow". no pun intended.
She is actually learning from the miners.
She maybe unpopular at the moment, but she was never stupid!
joea


----------



## startrader

joea said:


> MrBurns
> I was thinking about this myself.
> It just does not stand up to scrutiny.
> The following link, if it opens, suggest something of a bigger order.
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/labor_china_food_bowl_plan_VOZQjQXmlHZ1Pay7ExK74J
> 
> joea




This is truly frightening.  With Labor in control of anything we can expect it to be an unmitigated disaster.  So if they are contemplating allowing large scale investment by Chinese agricultural interests in undeveloped land here the winner out of this will be China, not us, and I hate to think of the damage that will be done in unimagined ways.  Just mind boggling what this pathetic government has done to this country in a few short years.


----------



## joea

startrader said:


> This is truly frightening.  With Labor in control of anything we can expect it to be an unmitigated disaster.  So if they are contemplating allowing large scale investment by Chinese agricultural interests in undeveloped land here the winner out of this will be China, not us, and I hate to think of the damage that will be done in unimagined ways.  Just mind boggling what this pathetic government has done to this country in a few short years.



+1

About 20 years ago I was talking to Bob Katter, and he was rattling on about bringing the southern food bowl to the north of Australia where the water is.
There have been some challenges in the Ord, but this is the logical place to start.
It appears a transition may be about to start.
joea


----------



## MrBurns

Just watching question time, it's a damn farce and it's all Labors doing, insulting BS on and on just wasting time, Gillard makes you sick just to listen to her.


----------



## Klogg

MrBurns said:


> Just watching question time, it's a damn farce and it's all Labors doing, insulting BS on and on just wasting time, Gillard makes you sick just to listen to her.




I am a Lib voter, but both sides of politics are fairly poor. I just want decent policy, I don't care where it comes from!

Labor is much further ahead on the failure count though...


----------



## MrBurns

Klogg said:


> I am a Lib voter, but both sides of politics are fairly poor. I just want decent policy, I don't care where it comes from!
> 
> Labor is much further ahead on the failure count though...




Gillards manner in question time is disgusting, Albanese likewise, just immature school yard insults.


----------



## waza1960

The thing that pings me off is that the royalty from the miners is all that is keeping this government afloat with its excessive spending.
       So Gillard for short term political gain kicks the very sector that she should be  
        grateful for.
  Just wait until China really slows down and commodity prices take a tumble watch the  Budget blow out then unfortunately she probably won't be around by then to take the heat.


----------



## joea

Klogg said:


> I am a Lib voter, but both sides of politics are fairly poor. I just want decent policy, I don't care where it comes from!




Klogg
Fair enough.
Now which side would you believe? That they would implement those particular policy's.
joea


----------



## joea

waza1960 said:


> The thing that pings me off is that the royalty from the miners is all that is keeping this government afloat with its excessive spending.




I think that very shortly there will be a fair sort of a B-B-Q at an airstrip in WA.
Twiggy will be providing the entertainment with his boys.(dancing and such)
Present.. Gina, Rio, BHP, cattle guy, small miners etc.etc.
Barnett and some of his clan.
Topic ...How much more of this c**p are we going to take from this government??

The steaks will be big as they will be from some beast still waiting in line to go to 
Indonesia.
joea


----------



## Eager

waza1960 said:


> The thing that pings me off is that the royalty from the miners is all that is keeping this government afloat with its excessive spending.



I am not sure, and therefore happy to stand corrected, but isn't it the States that collect royalties and not the Federal government?


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> I am not sure, and therefore happy to stand corrected, but isn't it the States that collect royalties and not the Federal government?



That's my understanding also, but the MRRT is a Federal government initiative.
Apart from the actual revenue to either State or Federal government, it seems pretty foolish to be bagging in any way the country's most productive industry.

Presumably the tactic has derived from Labor's realisation that it needs to shore up support from its traditional working class voters, and they have (misguidedly imo) decided the way to do this is to insult those wealthy people who run mining companies.

It seems to cut across the philosophy of encouraging aspiration to me, but perhaps I don't know what goes on in the minds of Gillard's "working families".
I do recall, however, that they switched to John Howard in droves.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Just watching question time, it's a damn farce and it's all Labors doing, insulting BS on and on just wasting time, Gillard makes you sick just to listen to her.




As I mentioned on a previous post, if we had an unbiased speaker in the chair who would just stand up to the Prime Minister and other Labor Ministers who refused to answer a questions with honesty and integrity, then they should be switched off and told to sit down.

This is where the farce begins and ends . The deputy speaker is definely biased towards Labor.

In the light at times  of Peter Slipper's eccentric behavior, he did exactly what a speaker should do and that is to be unbiased.


----------



## dutchie

Tanya Plibersek was on TV yesterday blaming Abbott for the nastiness etc in parliament.

Then...

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...lectorate-office/story-fn7q4q9f-1226377797502


What a pathetic hypocrite she is. So typical of Labor.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> In the light at times  of Peter Slipper's eccentric behavior, he did exactly what a speaker should do and that is to be unbiased.




+1
And at the moment Labor are ignoring the speaker as they see fit.
They show no respect for the position, and that is why parliament is turning into a fiasco.
The current speaker is not strong enough, and is struggling to do the job required of her.
joea


----------



## rumpole

> Gillards manner in question time is disgusting, Albanese likewise, just immature school yard




She doesn't generally answer questions directly, but those she has answered have exposed Abbott's tactics on the carbon tax as crude scaremongering.



> Apart from the actual revenue to either State or Federal government, it seems pretty foolish to be bagging in any way the country's most productive industry.
> 
> Presumably the tactic has derived from Labor's realisation that it needs to shore up support from its traditional working class voters, and they have (misguidedly imo) decided the way to do this is to insult those wealthy people who run mining companies.




I support the mining tax, but I don't believe there is any need to go into a verbal war with the mining industry. The behaviour of Rinehart and Palmer has amply demonstrated the sort of people they are. The governments job is to maximise the national interest from the mining and other industries, and without sufficient taxation revenue from mining, all the nation will be left with when they are finished is a lot of holes in the ground.


----------



## joea

rumpole said:


> She doesn't generally answer questions directly, but those she has answered have exposed Abbott's tactics on the carbon tax as crude scaremongering.




rumpole
You maybe correct.
But if you read the letter which has been sent to pensioners on compensation, it clearly states that more will come.
So basically Labor do not know how much to send out.
As the carbon tax will be applied from 1st. July on, do we know how many compensation packages will be applied.?
My understanding it was for a period of time, but have not been able to identify the length of the period.

So my understanding is that it will be sent out to improve Labor's polling (buy the votes). So I have concluded that will be to the next election.
joea


----------



## MrBurns

rumpole said:


> She doesn't generally answer questions directly, but those she has answered have exposed Abbott's tactics on the carbon tax as crude scaremongering.
> .




Scare tactics wouldn't work if Gillard was convincing on the Carbon Tax but she isn't ...because she's a proven liar and everyone knows it, 
It isnt Abbott thats scaring people it's Gillard who cant be truted to do anything right.


----------



## Julia

rumpole said:


> She doesn't generally answer questions directly



What a euphemistic interpretation of her behaviour.


----------



## Glen48

Enough said


----------



## joea

On Lunch Break in the Courier mail today at 12pm Dennis Atkins "blows the whistle",
on the Labor Government fight with the miners.
joea


----------



## Calliope

It is becoming increasingly obvious why Gillard cannot cut Thomson loose from the party. Another GFC is looming and she faces the prospect of launching another round of stimulus packages like the pink bats and the BER.

She will need Thomson's skills. He is the only one in her team "who can organise a root in a brothel."


----------



## joea

joea said:


> I think that very shortly there will be a fair sort of a B-B-Q at an airstrip in WA.
> Twiggy will be providing the entertainment with his boys.(dancing and such)
> Present.. Gina, Rio, BHP, cattle guy, small miners etc.etc.
> Barnett and some of his clan.
> Topic ...How much more of this c**p are we going to take from this government??
> 
> The steaks will be big as they will be from some beast still waiting in line to go to
> Indonesia.
> joea




http://www.smh.com.au/business/barnett-and-mining-chiefs-slam-gillard-government-20120601-1zn7f.html

joea


----------



## DB008

18/05/12





~2 weeks....
01/06/12




I thought that we were in a mining boom? Is the above normal?


----------



## Logique

Glen48 said:


> 'Just one of these could have prevented this' (pic)......Enough said



No fan of the PM's political policies Glen, but imho that picture should come down, it's going too far.


----------



## rumpole

Logique said:


> No fan of the PM's political policies Glen, but imho that picture should come down, it's going too far.




I'm afraid it's typical of the poisoned atmosphere going on in the political debate now.

It's time to step back, take a holiday and refresh the mind.


----------



## drsmith

It's well past time to step forward, have an election and refresh the parliament.


----------



## sails

Yes, we do need a new election, Drsmith.  

This is a worry - Roxon said the government plans to shield MPs from scrutiny by moving Parliament outside the reach of FOI...:



> But the Attorney-General, Nicola Roxon, has said the government will shield remaining MPs from such scrutiny by moving Parliament outside the reach of FOI.




Read more:
Slipper's expenses out of the bag but rest likely to stay secret


----------



## Miss Hale

Logique said:


> No fan of the PM's political policies Glen, but imho that picture should come down, it's going too far.




That sort of thing doen't appeal to me either.  I am no fan of the PM but that sort of joke can be levelled at anyone that one doesn't.  Quite frankly, I have no problem with Gillard walking his earth, just not happy with how she is running the country.


----------



## sails

Miss Hale said:


> That sort of thing doen't appeal to me either.  I am no fan of the PM but that sort of joke can be levelled at anyone that one doesn't.  Quite frankly, I have no problem with Gillard walking his earth, just not happy with how she is running the country.




Miss Hale, I had forgotten that picture was here and agree with your post above.


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> Miss Hale, I had forgotten that picture was here and agree with your post above.




I agree that that post is out of line with the general decorum on the ASF web site, it's more suited to a rougher kids forum. Sometimes making a judgement on where the line should be drawn is a matter for the users and they have spoken.


----------



## Logique

Over to you Joe.

On another matter, 100 tweets today, there's the taxpayer dollar at work, more of it under the carbon tax.



> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/
> Please give Kevin proper work
> By Andrew Bolt –, Monday,
> June, 04,
> 2012,
> (4:44pm) Filed under: Can someone give poor Kevin Rudd a proper job? The former Prime Minister had so little to do today that he published nearly 100 tweets, almost every one of them of the must profoundly inoffensive banality. Here are just a few:.....


----------



## numbercruncher

DB008 said:


> 18/05/12
> 
> View attachment 47274
> 
> 
> 
> ~2 weeks....
> 01/06/12
> 
> View attachment 47273
> 
> 
> I thought that we were in a mining boom? Is the above normal?





Millions on welfare

Commodity prices way off highs

Biggest mining companies majority foreign owned

Gigantic property bubble that lead to the largest household debt levels in world

Unless some miracle world boom happens its only going to get measurably and rapidly worse ....


----------



## sptrawler

numbercruncher said:


> Millions on welfare
> 
> Commodity prices way off highs
> 
> Biggest mining companies majority foreign owned
> 
> Gigantic property bubble that lead to the largest household debt levels in world
> 
> Unless some miracle world boom happens its only going to get measurably and rapidly worse ....




So what is the answer, you guessed it, bringin cheap imported labour to put downward pressure on wages. 
The funny thing is everyone thought work choices was the worry.
Well since the demise of Howard, what have you got, apart from the Swan, Gillard crap about the great job they are doing.
Retirement age increased from 65 to 67.
Amount you can put into your super reduced, to ensure you can't retire.
Increase in marginal tax rates.
Increase in indirect tax.
The only person to benefit from this minority government is Bob Brown who has achieved the imposible, due to Labor incompetence. IMO


----------



## DB008

numbercruncher said:


> Millions on welfare
> 
> Commodity prices way off highs
> 
> Biggest mining companies majority foreign owned
> 
> Gigantic property bubble that lead to the largest household debt levels in world
> 
> Unless some miracle world boom happens its only going to get measurably and rapidly worse ....





How about the people who are in charge at present? Do you think they have a clue? They are asleep at the steering-wheel....


----------



## Glen48

The etiring age has been raise to 65.5 to those born in a certain year I thing 1955 have a look on the web site but can see it being cranked up a bit more.


----------



## Julia

A further huge embarrassment to the Federal government is tonight's Four Corners program which shows people smugglers actually posing as refugees, given refugee status, including public housing, within nine months of arrival by boat, and then setting up a flourishing people smuggling operation from Australia, apparently even from Canberra!!!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-...ught-living-in-australia/4050506?WT.svl=news0

So much for the vetting process of these so called refugees.

Meanwhile, genuine refugees continue to rot in camps in Malaysia after applying to come here via the official channels.

And our own disadvantaged people sit on waiting lists of up to ten years for public housing, in the meantime often living out of cars or simply on the streets.

How utterly sickening.


----------



## DB008

Julia said:


> And our own disadvantaged people sit on waiting lists of up to ten years for public housing, in the meantime often living out of cars or simply on the streets.




Just saw the show Julia. 
WOW
Illegal refugees getting better treatment than people here who desperatly genuinely need it. Terrible.


----------



## sptrawler

This is par for course for this government, ill thought out policy that back fires, then the patch up fix, ends up worse than the original problem.
It must be getting to the point they really should stand down.
Bob Brown must be wetting himself with laughter, what a goon show.


----------



## Julia

Yes, it's farcical.  But it's also very concerning that their vetting is so inadequate.
People smugglers are bad enough but the potential for much worse seems obvious.


----------



## sptrawler

Decided against posting, being too sceptical


----------



## pilots

The boat captains kids all had a Government house, here in Perth we have AUSTRALIANS LIVING IN CARS waiting for housing.


----------



## Glen48

According to 9 poll :
How many home owners would worrying.

*VOTE*
Do you think Australia's economy is safe?






*31867*





*89001*




​


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Yes, it's farcical.  But it's also very concerning that their vetting is so inadequate.
> People smugglers are bad enough but the potential for much worse seems obvious.




The people who do the vetting couldn't be that incompetent. I think it is part of a deliberate official process.


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Yes, we do need a new election, Drsmith.
> 
> This is a worry - Roxon said the government plans to shield MPs from scrutiny by moving Parliament outside the reach of FOI...:
> 
> 
> 
> Read more:
> Slipper's expenses out of the bag but rest likely to stay secret



Something I suspect would have support from both the major parties.

There would likely be some shockers as per the British expoerience, from both sides.

Overall, it reflects very poorly on political culture.


----------



## joea

It is interesting the Federal Government making a big noise through the media on the Qld Alpha Coal Project, and Roxon in Townsville today.

I can only say the Labor campaign on Queensland has started.

And there is a fair chance that it all coincided with better economic figures released today.

joea


----------



## joea

When Austerity Fails

By Colin Twiggs
June 6th, 2012 1:00 a.m. ET (5:00 p:m AET)

These extracts from my trading diary are for educational purposes and should not be interpreted as investment or trading advice. Full terms and conditions can be found at Terms of Use.



Austerity decimated Asian economies during their 1997/98 financial crisis and similar measures have failed to rescue the PIIGS in Europe 2012. David Cameron's austerity measures have also not saved the UK from falling back into recession. So why is Wayne Swan in Australia so proud of his balanced budget? And why does Barack Obama threaten the wealthy with increased taxes while the GOP advocate spending cuts in order to reduce the US deficit? Are we condemned to follow Europe into a deflationary spiral?

How Did We Get Here?

First, let's examine the causes of the current financial crisis.

Government deficits have been around for centuries. States would borrow in order to finance wars but were then left with the problem of repayment. Countries frequently defaulted, but this created difficulties in accessing further finance; so governments resorted to debasing their currencies. Initially they substituted coins with a lower metal content for the original issue. Then introduction of fiat currencies — with no right of conversion to an underlying gold/silver standard — made debasement a lot easier. Issuing more paper currency simply reduced the value of each note in circulation. Advent of the digital age made debasement still easier, with transfer of balances between electronic accounts largely replacing paper money. Fiscal deficits, previously confined to wars, became regular government policy; employed as a stealth tax and redistributed in the form of welfare benefits to large voting blocks.

Along with fiscal deficits came easy monetary policy — also known as debt expansion. Lower interest rates fueled greater demand for debt, which bankers, with assistance from the central bank, were only too willing to accommodate. I will not go into a lengthy exposition of how banks create money, but banks expand their balance sheets by lending money they do not have, confident in the knowledge that recipients will deposit the proceeds back in the banking system — which is then used to fund the original loan. Expanding bank balance sheets inject new money into the system, debasing the currency as effectively as if they were running a printing press in the basement.

The combination of rising prices and low interest rates is a heady mix investors cannot resist, leading to speculative bubbles in real estate or stocks. So why do governments encourage debt expansion? Because (A) it creates a temporary high — a false sense of well-being before inflation takes hold; and (B) it debases the currency, inflating tax revenues while reducing the real value of government debt.

Continuous government deficits and debt expansion via the financial sector have brought us to the edge of the precipice. The problem is: finding a way back — none of the solutions seem to work.

Austerity

Slashing government spending, cutting back on investment programs, and raising taxes in order to reduce the fiscal deficit may appear a logical response to the crisis. Reversing policies that caused the problem will reduce their eventual impact, but you have to do that before the financial crisis — not after. With bank credit contracting and aggregate demand shrinking, it is too late to throw the engine into reverse — you are already going backwards. The economy is already slowing. Rather than reducing harmful side-effects, austerity applied at the wrong time will simply amplify them.

The 1997 Asian Crisis

We are repeating the mistakes of the 1997/98 Asian crisis. Joseph Stiglitz, at the time chief economist at the World Bank, warned the IMF of the perils of austerity measures imposed on recipients of IMF support. He was politely ignored. By July 1998, 13 months after the start of the crisis, GNP had fallen by 83 percent in Indonesia and between 30 and 40 percent in other recipients of IMF "assistance". Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, South Korea and the Phillipines reduced government deficits, allowed insolvent banks to fail, and raised interest rates in response to IMF demands. Currency devaluations, waves of bankruptcies, real estate busts, collapse of entire industries and soaring unemployment followed — leading to social unrest. Contracting bank lending without compensatory fiscal deficits led to a deflationary spiral, while raising interest rates failed to protect currencies from devaluation.

The same failed policies are being pursued today, simply because continuing fiscal deficits and ballooning public debt are a frightening alternative.

The Lesser of Two Evils

At some point political leaders are going to realize the futility of further austerity measures and resort to the hair of the dog that bit them. Bond markets are likely to resist further increases in public debt and deficits would have to be funded directly or indirectly by the central bank/Federal Reserve. Inflation would rise. Effectively the government is printing fresh new dollar bills with nothing to back them.

The short-term payoff would be fourfold. Rising inflation increases tax revenues while at the same time decreasing the value of public debt in real terms. Real estate values rise, restoring many underwater mortgages to solvency, and rescuing banks threatened by falling house prices. Finally, inflation would discourage currency manipulation. Asian exporters who keep their currencies at artificially low values, by purchasing $trillions of US treasuries to offset the current account imbalance, will suffer a capital loss on their investments.

The long-term costs — inflation, speculative bubbles and financial crises — are likely to be out-weighed by the short-term benefits when it comes to counting votes. Even rising national debt would to some extent be offset by rising nominal GDP, stabilizing the debt-to-GDP ratio. And if deficits are used to fund productive infrastructure, rather than squandered on public fountains and bridges-to-nowhere, that will further enhance GDP growth while ensuring that the state has real assets to show for the debt incurred.

Not "If" but "When"

Faced with the failure of austerity measures, governments are likely to abandon them and resort to the printing press — fiscal deficits and quantitative easing. It is more a case of "when" rather than "if". Successful traders/investors will need to allow for this in their strategies, timing their purchases to take advantage of the shift.

 passed on from IC joea your humble servant).


----------



## So_Cynical

What a surprise...its 9.30PM and no one has commented on today's stunning GDP numbers.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...n-on-bullish-gdp/story-e6frg916-1226386561291

4.3% annual growth, from a Labor government in office for almost 5 years....not a positive word on this forum, are you guys all brain washed or something? programmed to focus on the negatives with 1 vote Tony leading by example?


----------



## MrBurns

So_Cynical said:


> What a surprise...its 9.30PM and no one has commented on today's stunning GDP numbers.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...n-on-bullish-gdp/story-e6frg916-1226386561291
> 
> 4.3% annual growth, from a Labor government in office for almost 5 years....not a positive word on this forum, are you guys all brain washed or something? programmed to focus on the negatives with 1 vote Tony leading by example?




That was historic datÃ¡ to end of March, things arent any better retail is down, tourism is down , Europe is on the brink, the UK is in recession, we have lost our surplus , our housing bubble is bursting,  we have a Carbon Tax almost here and Swan is still an idiot.

There hows that ?


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> What a surprise...its 9.30PM and no one has commented on today's stunning GDP numbers.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...n-on-bullish-gdp/story-e6frg916-1226386561291
> 
> 4.3% annual growth, from a Labor government in office for almost 5 years....not a positive word on this forum, are you guys all brain washed or something? programmed to focus on the negatives with 1 vote Tony leading by example?




Yes tonight there was a street bbq everyone dancing and singing praise to the goon show. Well maybe in your street.LOL,LOL

I hope you invited the guys who work for Hastie, they would love to hear the great news. 
Maybe you could tell them about all the jobs that are screaming out for them to fill.LOL

Also don't forget to mention if they miss out on the mining job, to imported labour.
There is allways the new green jobs comming up replacing our power stations with solar panels.LOL,LOL,LOL


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

So_Cynical said:


> What a surprise...its 9.30PM and no one has commented on today's stunning GDP numbers.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...n-on-bullish-gdp/story-e6frg916-1226386561291
> 
> 4.3% annual growth, from a Labor government in office for almost 5 years....not a positive word on this forum, are you guys all brain washed or something? programmed to focus on the negatives with 1 vote Tony leading by example?





As I said in another thread, start a new thread on this. Go to General Forum and click " New thread ". And go from there and you will get comments on it.

gg


----------



## So_Cynical

MrBurns said:


> That was historic datÃ¡ to end of March, things arent any better retail is down, tourism is down , Europe is on the brink, the UK is in recession, we have lost our surplus , our housing bubble is bursting,  we have a Carbon Tax almost here and Swan is still an idiot.
> 
> There hows that ?




Your leader would be so proud....so many negatives. 

And yet 4.3% growth, low unemployment, low interest rates, AAA rating from all credit rating agency's...shall i continue?

Perhaps a worthwhile exercise would be a "5 years in" Coalition / Labor Government comparison?

Anyone know what our credit rating was in 2001? Unemployment % Interest rates?



Garpal Gumnut said:


> As I said in another thread, start a new thread on this. Go to General Forum and click " New thread ". And go from there and you will get comments on it.
> 
> gg




Unfortunately the weight of the ASF right would ensure it turned into a 5 post thread or just another Labor bashing thread.


----------



## MrBurns

So_Cynical said:


> Your leader would be so proud....so many negatives.
> Unfortunately the weight of the ASF right would ensure it turned into a 5 post thread or just another Labor bashing thread.




It's easy for Swan to gloat, he isnt running a business, the reality out there is not positive at all.


----------



## sptrawler

I couldn't be bothered chasing up more info, but this link gives you mortgage rates, So Cynical. If you want more graphical info on labor stuff ups, just google graphs covering labor years.

http://www.loansense.com.au/historical-rates.html
There you go I'm bored here's an unemployment graph

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=as&v=74


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

So_Cynical said:


> Your leader would be so proud....so many negatives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately the weight of the ASF right would ensure it turned into a 5 post thread or just another Labor bashing thread.




S_C,

I do not understand you. Posters on ASF which is a Stock forum, which any fair minded person with an ounce of intelligence would imagine would be replete with people who are conservative in thought and voting intentions, have given you much slack. 

You persist in your attacks on the motives of posters. You have failed to connect with posters when some agreement could have been reached in that which all agree upon.

And lastly I wished you a Happy New Year on a PM, to which you failed to reply.

I feel you are daily dining upon a sh*t sandwich, which is giving you indigestion, and which you take out upon innocent liberal and conservative thinkers.

And for what it's worth, I think Swan should be congratulated for the numbers today, but you failed to start a thread on which I could express this, and congratulate him.

gg


----------



## wayneL

So_Cynical said:


> What a surprise...its 9.30PM and no one has commented on today's stunning GDP numbers.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...n-on-bullish-gdp/story-e6frg916-1226386561291
> 
> 4.3% annual growth, from a Labor government in office for almost 5 years....not a positive word on this forum, are you guys all brain washed or something? programmed to focus on the negatives with 1 vote Tony leading by example?




Where did the growth come from and how was it achieved (I don't know so I am asking)?

For instance in one of the last few quarters in NZ where I heard the breakdown, 2 export industries were in strong growth (logging, dairy), keeping the GDP figure positive despite the rest of the economy being in recession.

My contacts in Oz say things are pretty tight... and why has the RBA cut, why is the housing market in the pits and why is unemployment growing in the face of such strong growth?

The devil is in the detail.


----------



## dutchie

:70:







Garpal Gumnut said:


> S_C,
> 
> I do not understand you. Posters on ASF which is a Stock forum, which any fair minded person with an ounce of intelligence would imagine would be replete with people who are conservative in thought and voting intentions, have given you much slack.
> 
> You persist in your attacks on the motives of posters. You have failed to connect with posters when some agreement could have been reached in that which all agree upon.
> 
> And lastly I wished you a Happy New Year on a PM, to which you failed to reply.
> 
> I feel you are daily dining upon a sh*t sandwich, which is giving you indigestion, and which you take out upon innocent liberal and conservative thinkers.
> 
> And for what it's worth, I think Swan should be congratulated for the numbers today, but you failed to start a thread on which I could express this, and congratulate him.
> 
> gg






A S F - Just feel the Conservative Love


----------



## joea

wayneL said:


> Where did the growth come from and how was it achieved (I don't know so I am asking)?




wayne
I posted a link in "interest rates".
We are not sure who is penning in the numbers at ABS. Could be "gecko the clown".
No doubt they will explain next month.
It appears they have a record of going back and fixing their figures.
joea


----------



## joea

Well I know Labor always had their eyes on the money in the super funds, and the Future Fund for that matter.
Well that's a "no brainer" as Peter Costello warned us about that.

So now we see ALBO. chasing it.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/albanese_considers_selling_infrastructure_UXBsMQbBXSL4mMpQQLXIXL

joea


----------



## Calliope

wayneL said:


> Where did the growth come from and how was it achieved (I don't know so I am asking)?




Here's your answer Wayne. Poor old Cynical was throwing a tantrum because no one was posting any Wayne Swan positives, so it is ironic that Swan is boasting about Labor's achievement, which results from the industry which they  have declared war on.

*Miners dig economy out of hole as GDP growth hits 4.3pc*



> WAYNE Swan has claimed vindication for his budget strategy after mining investment and strong consumer spending delivered the best growth in the Australian economy in four years.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nomy-out-of-hole/story-fn59nsif-1226386849745


----------



## Knobby22

It really deserves a seperate thread.
I'm busier than I have ever been at work. 

There is a lot of fear which is causing pain but the reality is pretty good. Not fantastic but pretty good. It's not just the mining boom as the biased Australian tries to push.

Over the quarter Australians bought 4% more food, 6% more transport services, 3% more health services. Inflation rate is 0, household incomes grew 2.5%, savings stayed the same at 9.3%.

Next budget will be slightly contractionary with the carbon tax but as the poorer people get the cash I don't think it will be as bad as some make out.

I think we are not going to see too many more rate cuts.


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> There is a lot of fear which is causing pain but the reality is pretty good. Not fantastic but pretty good*. It's not just the mining boom as the biased Australian tries to push.*




Wrong again Knobs. My quote from the Oz said;



> WAYNE Swan has claimed vindication for his budget strategy after* mining investment and strong consumer spending* delivered the best growth in the Australian economy in four years.


----------



## Knobby22

I am sure they have the truth in the text but the headline is "Miners dig economy out of hole etc."


----------



## Julia

Mr Swan's hypocrisy as he struts around congratulating himself on the GDP figures is breathtaking, considering his recent vitriolic attacks on the source of much of this good fortune.


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Mr Swan's hypocrisy as he struts around congratulating himself on the GDP figures is breathtaking, considering his recent vitriolic attacks on the source of much of this good fortune.




I think June will be a interesting month for retail. The sales will give us an idea real quick, because they report back about their sales in the following week.
I think we are all hoping that our economy will recovery.
The first week in July will give us an idea.

+1 for above comment!
joea


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Mr Swan's hypocrisy as he struts around congratulating himself on the GDP figures is breathtaking, considering his recent vitriolic attacks on the source of much of this good fortune.




This maybe of interest!

http://www.afr.com/p/national/company_collapses_up_this_year_pressure_YcIX3WhE6XNLNN8LyljmuM

joea


----------



## joea

Just a bit about solar!

And people wonder why we comment on NBN!!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-on-school-roofs/story-fn59niix-1226387595568

joea


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> Mr Swan's hypocrisy as he struts around congratulating himself on the GDP figures is breathtaking, considering his recent vitriolic attacks on the source of much of this good fortune.




These figures, which are to be welcomed, will pose a problem for Gillard/Swan down the track. They are not sustainable and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the economy is slowing, including mining to some extent. However, the more subdued figures will show up in the accounts from the current quarter onwards, particularly next quarter. This is when the carbon tax comes into effect. 

So even if the carbon tax has no impact on the economy, which IMO will not be the case, the national accounts will show a slowing in the economy coinciding with the introduction of the carbon tax, because we will be coming off such a high base.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Mr Swan's hypocrisy as he struts around congratulating himself on the GDP figures is breathtaking, considering his recent vitriolic attacks on the source of much of this good fortune.




Yes Julia, he is strutting around like a **** sparrow and talking like a gattling gun. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.Rat a tat,tat.


----------



## numbercruncher

Im not sure I would want to be the next Governing term - they are going to be Governing over one hell of a mess .... 

Hang on a minute ....


----------



## MrBurns

I love the wizard -


----------



## numbercruncher

Hmmm but Labor cant win the next election .... Near on impossible ..... Then Liberal inherit a screwed economy that gets worse - and the stupid people blame them and vote them out .... Sounds like a evil Labor plan to me - a one term break


----------



## MrBurns

numbercruncher said:


> Hmmm but Labor cant win the next election .... Near on impossible ..... Then Liberal inherit a screwed economy that gets worse - and the stupid people blame them and vote them out .... Sounds like a evil Labor plan to me - a one term break




I've been sayng for a while I wouldn't like to be Abbott when he wins - 

Wind back NBN, cant do it now.
Carbon Tax ? 
Tell millions they wont be getting freebies in the mail 

No it is not a job I'd be interested in.


----------



## drsmith

We can hardly leave it to Labor.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> We can hardly leave it to Labor.





No as usual the clean up work is left to the Libs.:swear:


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> We can hardly leave it to Labor.




I think if the Coalition get in, we will be reminded of Labor for some time.
It's a pity that some contractors went for money and not safety.
Or is this a story to get more money?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-07/audit-raises-school-solar-power-safety-concerns/4058318

It has to stop one day surely!!

joea


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Gillard is appearing on her own on this coming Monday night's Q&A.

I hope the ABC fills the studio with a proper cross-section of the electorate rather than stacking the audience.


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> Gillard is appearing on her own on this coming Monday night's Q&A.
> 
> I hope the ABC fills the studio with a proper cross-section of the electorate rather than stacking the audience.




I see that! It will be interesting to see how many tune in.
joea


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> I think if the Coalition get in, we will be reminded of Labor for some time.
> It's a pity that some contractors went for money and not safety.
> Or is this a story to get more money?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-07/audit-raises-school-solar-power-safety-concerns/4058318
> 
> It has to stop one day surely!!
> 
> joea



There's also this in the The Australian regarding the cost of solar schools,



> While Labor's carbon tax will cost $23 for every tonne of emissions, the Solar Schools program will cost about $284 per tonne in an estimate that is likely to understate the "considerable" cost of the scheme, the audit concludes.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...er-doubly-unsafe/story-fndttws1-1226388115594

Disproportionately large injection of government money into a specific industry, same old story.


----------



## drsmith

StumpyPhantom said:


> Gillard is appearing on her own on this coming Monday night's Q&A.
> 
> I hope the ABC fills the studio with a proper cross-section of the electorate rather than stacking the audience.



I wonder whether the leader of the opposition will get a look in on his own on Q&A.


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> I wonder whether the leader of the opposition will get a look in on his own on Q&A.




Barnaby Joyce was on last week or so, and Tony Jones asked Barnaby if Abbott would come on.
I do not think that Barnaby was aware that Juliar Gillard was to be on this week.
So we will see.
joea


----------



## Calliope

Swan and Gillard are indulging in a class war against the goose that lays their golden egg.



> But perhaps a bigger mistake than any of this has been the government's class war rhetoric against the mining industry. With figures showing the resources industry has been our economic saviour, and promises to underwrite the future, Mr Swan and Julia Gillard somehow have managed to portray it as the enemy. Instead of working with the industry, associating the government with its success, and encouraging an optimistic outlook on the economy, Mr Swan has attacked the goose that laid his golden egg.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...s-the-golden-egg/story-e6frg71x-1226389478441


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> I wonder whether the leader of the opposition will get a look in on his own on Q&A.




The Coalition ignored repeated requests from the Insiders for anyone to appear for some time. 

Seems Abbott only appears when it is all carefully *scripted*.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

IFocus said:


> The Coalition ignored repeated requests from the Insiders for anyone to appear for some time.
> 
> Seems Abbott only appears when it is all carefully *scripted*.




Mate, 

Gillard, Swan , Combet and the rest of the motley crew of muppets have control of a lolly shop which they will spend and exhaust for socialist reasons, and when they are spent they will be cast in to oblivion.

The nation awaits the end of it all.

All is "entertainment" in between.

Labor will not come within coo eee of government for 15 to 25 years after this debacle.

gg


----------



## hja

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Mate,
> 
> Gillard, Swan , Combet and the rest of the motley crew of muppets have control of a lolly shop which they will spend and exhaust for socialist reasons, and when they are spent they will be cast in to oblivion.
> 
> The nation awaits the end of it all.
> 
> All is "entertainment" in between.
> 
> Labor will not come within coo eee of government for 15 to 25 years after this debacle.
> 
> gg




I accept that but please lay off the hyperbolic predictions; I saw what happened with the NBN thread!


----------



## drsmith

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Labor will not come within coo eee of government for 15 to 25 years after this debacle.



They might be reduced to a formal coalition with the Greens, as the minor partner.

Oops!

Sorry. For all practical purposes, that's the case now.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> The Coalition ignored repeated requests from the Insiders for anyone to appear for some time.
> 
> Seems Abbott only appears when it is all carefully *scripted*.



What about Q&A ?


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> What about Q&A ?




I would assume that Julia Gillard will challenge Tony Abbott on Monday night, to come on Q&A."and face the real people", instead of just talking to his miner friends.
I would be prepared to say Tony Jones will put her up to it.

I will also be prepared to say that 10% of the questions to her will be answered,  with  another 40% being in campaign mode!
On top of that the other 50% of her answers will bash Tony Abbott.
I will be observing with  pencil and paper. To note how many times she will phrase "doing the right thing! ...and "getting on with the job"!
joea


----------



## Logique

StumpyPhantom said:


> Gillard is appearing on her own on this coming Monday night's Q&A.
> 
> I hope the ABC fills the studio with a proper cross-section of the electorate rather than stacking the audience.



Agree, but..as if! However they'll be instructed to say they're Coalition supporters.


----------



## joea

It will be all on the line on Monday night.
Julia has been in training...yoga, boxing and games with the big silver ball.
Wondering if she will turn up in a track suit?
joea


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Agree, but..as if! However they'll be instructed to say they're Coalition supporters.



I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who had this thought.
It's a joke when you look at the stats they put up about the proportions of the audience and their political leaning.
About as accurate as me saying I'm Green 100%.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

She is the Prime Minister and I would expect she will behave as such. I think we should give her some slack and see how she performs.

Tony Jones, even though he is a Trot, will equally have to follow his journalistic rather than his political instincts, and give her a fair go.

I have discussed this with Tony Abbott, and he rightly points out that it is pointless him appearing on QANDA, as the viewers of this show have already made up their minds about voting intentions.

His parting words to me were.

" Garpal, mate, it is not about being popular, it is about doing the best for this great nation of ours" 

gg


----------



## Calliope

It would be a very cynical person indeed who failed to love the *new *new Julia who knits cardies for babies. She made one for Penny Wong's baby too.



> She has taken up yoga and boxing, as well as working out on a Bosu ball - a semi-inflated hemisphere of rubber upon which one performs core strengthening exercises.
> 
> "I'll sit and have a chat with Tim, I'll watch a nonsense bit of TV because it just helps you unwind. I knit, so I watch a nonsense bit of TV and knit at the same time. I'm on a - I can actually produce this for you - I'm on a smock coat for a two-year-old with quite a complex pattern at the top which requires you to count stitches in eight-stitch lots."




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...th-claire-harvey/story-e6frezz0-1226389908102


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> It would be a very cynical person indeed who failed to love the *new *new Julia who knits cardies for babies. She made one for Penny Wong's baby too.
> ]




Yes knitting for babies
Cheques in the mail
Emergency meetings re the cost of childcare

All very contrived

We'll hear all about working families on Monday and how a carbon tax will help them.


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> It would be a very cynical person indeed who failed to love the *new *new Julia who knits cardies for babies. She made one for Penny Wong's baby too.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...th-claire-harvey/story-e6frezz0-1226389908102




"I'll sit and have a chat with Tim, I'll watch a nonsense bit of TV because it just helps you unwind. I knit, so I watch a nonsense bit of TV and knit at the same time." -  _she is watching re-runs of her speeches_.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

Gillard is RIGHT NOW giving a press conference at the ANU in Canberra.

What the hell are the guys doing behind her?  PLAYING POOL!!

WTF!!!


----------



## MrBurns

And the Gillard Govt stuff up of the day is.......drum roll.............



> Clubs hold trump card in pokies pre-commitment saga
> 
> The Federal Government's proposed trial on pre-commitment technology for poker machines in the ACT may never go ahead because the clubs cannot legally be forced to participate.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-11/pokies-precommitment-trial-down-to-act-clubs/4064514


----------



## DB008

*Change of heart......*

Gov. change of heart?



> *Government intervenes to allow British police officer Peter Threlfall into country*
> 
> THE Immigration Minister has ordered his department to allow British policeman Peter Threlfall and his family into Australia.
> 
> Chris Bowen's intervention followed revelations in The Advertiser yesterday that the family had been denied visas because Mr Threlfall's 25-year-old step-daughter, Sarah, has autism.
> 
> Mr Threlfall last night likened the backflip to winning the lottery.
> 
> He said SA Police had told him his original job offer as a constable in Ceduna would be honoured, and he hoped to be in Australia by September. "This is unbelievable. I just can't get over it," Mr Threlfall said from London.
> 
> The Threlfalls were originally denied visas because an Immigration Department medical officer deemed Sarah's condition would place a burden on health- care and community services in Australia.
> 
> This was despite the fact Sarah has two jobs and plans to study as a hairdresser in Australia. Disability advocates last night applauded Mr Bowen's intervention, but demanded the immediate scrapping of the "discriminatory" policy behind the original decision.




Link


----------



## joea

Cop this coalition!!:holysheep:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-14/labor-dirt-unit-unleashed-on-opposition/4070120

As least the Liberals do it discreetly. 
joea


----------



## sptrawler

My guess would be that we will have an election in October, the economy isn't getting any better and unemployment can only get worse. Therefore waiting untill next year will in all probability give labor a worse result, the leadership issue won't go away, the fall out from the carbon tax will have really kicked in and the handouts will have been spent.
IMO there is no upside for labor to wait, that will be why they are gearing up with a dirt file.
Gillards last stand.LOL,LOL Talk about having a total disconnect with the voters, using Pommie political advisers will backfire badly.


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Cop this coalition!!:holysheep:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-14/labor-dirt-unit-unleashed-on-opposition/4070120
> 
> As least the Liberals do it discreetly.
> joea




Labor's motto is 'DO ANYTHING TO STAY IN POWER".

They certainlty have not learnt any lessons from Anna Bligh with her dirt file on Campbell Newman in the Queensland state eleections.

How low can the Labor Party go?


----------



## sptrawler

joea said:


> Cop this coalition!!:holysheep:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-14/labor-dirt-unit-unleashed-on-opposition/4070120
> 
> As least the Liberals do it discreetly.
> joea




Looks as though Julia agrees with the ploy, after Craig Thompson you would think she needs to clean up her own backyard, before starting on others.LOL,LOL
This is going to backfire something classic, they obviously don't learn from mistakes.LOL

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...f-opposition-mps/story-e6freuy9-1226395234614


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> Labor's motto is 'DO ANYTHING TO STAY IN POWER".
> 
> They certainlty have not learnt any lessons from Anna Bligh with her dirt file on Campbell Newman in the Queensland state eleections.
> 
> How low can the Labor Party go?




Julia doesn't see anything wrong with the tax-payer paying for the collection of dirt on *her opponents* and operating out of her office.

She is not concerned that her opponents may not be the tax-payers' opponents.


----------



## sptrawler

Well just saw the Governments star performer on T.V news, he couldn't get the smile off his face.
He said he was extremely happy with what he had achieved, yep he certainly played a blinder on labor.
Well done Bob.
Bad luck Australia.LOL


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

sptrawler said:


> Looks as though Julia agrees with the ploy, after Craig Thompson you would think she needs to clean up her own backyard, before starting on others.LOL,LOL
> This is going to backfire something classic, they obviously don't learn from mistakes.LOL
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...f-opposition-mps/story-e6freuy9-1226395234614




My contacts in Sussex St. tell me that a bloke called John McTernan, who is a Pommie, formerly Irish or a Scot, now rules the roost in the PM's office, as Media head honcho.

He worked with Gordon Brown in the UK, so he has plenty of experience in backing a loser in to oblivion.

And he gets paid in the high 200k for the privilege.

The Gillard office certainly spreads the tax payers money around the globe.

gg


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Well just saw the Governments star performer on T.V news, he couldn't get the smile off his face.
> He said he was extremely happy with what he had achieved, yep he certainly played a blinder on labor.
> Well done Bob.
> Bad luck Australia.LOL



Um, who are you talking about?


----------



## Eager

Garpal Gumnut said:


> My contacts in Sussex St. tell me that a bloke called John McTernan, who is a Pommie, formerly Irish or a Scot, now rules the roost in the PM's office, as Media head honcho.
> 
> He worked with Gordon Brown in the UK, so he has plenty of experience in backing a loser in to oblivion.
> 
> And he gets paid in the high 200k for the privilege.
> gg



Fuggall compared to a lot of blue collar workers.


----------



## sptrawler

Eager said:


> Fuggall compared to a lot of blue collar workers.




Yes but the blue collar produces something other than BS.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Um, who are you talking about?




The guy who is going to sit watching the sunset, hand in hand with his boyfriend. 
On a government pension, alongside lots of other Tasmanians, on welfare due to him.
Also to be joined by many Australian mainlanders on government welfare due to him, with the assistance of an inept labor government.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

sptrawler said:


> The guy who is going to sit watching the sunset, hand in hand with his boyfriend.
> On a government pension, alongside lots of other Tasmanians, on welfare due to him.
> Also to be joined by many Australian mainlanders on government welfare due to him, with the assistance of an inept labor government.




Yep!  He's a star performer alright.

He made Tasmania sound like the economic, environmental and social powerhouse of the universe.  His glow rubbed off on me until the objective side of my brain reminded me of stte-by-state GDP figures that indicated the Apple Isle was an absolute basket case.

So there, go figure!


----------



## Calliope

Gillard couldn't be that disingenuous surely, or does she see this Departure Tax increase as an extension of her class warfare campaign?

On ABC radio yesterday.



> PM: *We are not taxing Australian tourism *through the increases in the Passenger Movement Charge. People will pay that ... if they are going to an airport to fly out of the country to take their money overseas and go and spend it in some overseas tourism destination, you know, anywhere round the world that people might want to go to.




Tourism and Transport Forum chief John Lee, ABC 24, yesterday:



> *NOT only will we have the carbon tax ... but we'll have an airport police tax and now a 17 per cent increase in the departure tax and, unfortunately, the Prime Minister's staff haven't been able to brief her properly because it's ... a tax that hits anyone who comes into or leaves a port of Australia.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nd-down-in-polls/story-fn72xczz-1226395986200


----------



## Ijustnewit

StumpyPhantom said:


> Yep!  He's a star performer alright.
> 
> He made Tasmania sound like the economic, environmental and social powerhouse of the universe.  His glow rubbed off on me until the objective side of my brain reminded me of stte-by-state GDP figures that indicated the Apple Isle was an absolute basket case.
> 
> So there, go figure!




For those unfamiliar with what happened at the last Tasmanian State Election. It went sort of like this the Liberals and Labour polled almost an equal numbers of first preference votes. Neither could win outright. The Liberals refused to form a coalition with the Greens. Labour offered seats in parliament to a few Greens to side with them . The Greens accepted . Labour and the Greens went along to the State Governor General who thought it was a Grand Idea and let the whole thing proceed . The Liberals and the Electorate demanded another Election to get a result . This was denied by the State Governor. 
The whole mess has been dragging on since 2010 , The State is now technically in recession and our lovely State leader says please don't use that term and continues to talk up the State Economy . Sound familiar just like The Big Island to the North.


----------



## herzy

At least there are some sensible people posting on this thread:



springhill said:


> You, sir, are a wind power DENIER!






DB008 said:


> Hi Glen,
> Can you please start to put some links into your posts please....




On another note, do I detect a homophobe?



sptrawler said:


> The guy who is going to sit watching the sunset, hand in hand with his boyfriend.
> On a government pension, alongside lots of other Tasmanians, on welfare due to him.
> Also to be joined by many Australian mainlanders on government welfare due to him, with the assistance of an inept labor government.




Political beliefs aside, I think Bob deserves a little respect - he's achieved a lot in a particularly un-environmentally orientated country. Although the Greens movement was initiated for the first time globally in Australia (by Bob!), it never really took off here.

Compare that with Germany, where the Greens currently have 68 seats (out of 622 - or 11%) - and yet they manage to be the 4th biggest economy in the world (after losing 2 world wars in the last 100 years)...

Not saying Bob/the Greens deserve your votes, but at least some respect.


----------



## Glen48

On another note, do I detect a homophobe?

No I have walked down Castro St in San Frans,and believe in Gay rights but not gay men raising kids.

My last boy friend was a pain in the butt.

DB will do posting any in particular you are referring to.


----------



## sptrawler

herzy said:


> Political beliefs aside, I think Bob deserves a little respect - he's achieved a lot in a particularly un-environmentally orientated country. Although the Greens movement was initiated for the first time globally in Australia (by Bob!), it never really took off here.
> 
> Compare that with Germany, where the Greens currently have 68 seats (out of 622 - or 11%) - and yet they manage to be the 4th biggest economy in the world (after losing 2 world wars in the last 100 years)...
> 
> Not saying Bob/the Greens deserve your votes, but at least some respect.




Maybe you could explain why they deserve respect?
They represent a small minority of the votes casted in the election, yet get through their policy that impacts on the majority of the voters.
Maybe you can reconcile that but I have difficulty with it.
As for homophobic, no I'm not but then again I am not pushing my views on a national scale. Neither should he be just because he has access to a national platform.


----------



## bigdog

*Psalm of Julia . . .





FIRST BOOK OF GOVERNMENT

Julia is the shepherd I  did not want.

She leadeth me beside the still factories.

She  restoreth my faith in the Liberal party.

She guideth me in the path  of unemployment for her party's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the  valley of the bread line, I shall fear no hunger for her bailouts are  with me.

She has annointed my income with taxes, My expenses  runneth over.

Surely, poverty and hard living will follow me all the  days of my life.

And I will live in a rented home forever.

I am  glad I am Australian.

I am glad that I am free.

But I wish I was a  big dog

And Julia was a tree.

  AMEN  BROTHER!!*


----------



## sptrawler

Jeez bigdog, don't be so disrespectful, Julia's legs aren't that thin.


----------



## Calliope

Europes problems are over? Julia Gillard and the world's best treasurer advise Angela Merkel to follow Australia's example - but;



> JULIA Gillard and Wayne Swan may as well bay at the moon as hope Australia's influence will change the mind of the Krupp's steel lady, Angela Merkel.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...rm-clouds-gather/story-e6frg75f-1226398059444


----------



## DB008

Calliope said:


> Europes problems are over? Julia Gillard and the world's best treasurer advise Angela Merkel to follow Australia's example - but;




Ha. Good one.

I really wonder what sort of economic position Australia would be in without the mining boom?


----------



## sptrawler

Well we can't be in too good a position, labor brought in an austerity programe.
Retirement age lifted to 67
Amount that can be put into super reduced.
Increased indirect tax e.g carbon tax..
Increased personal tax rates.

Yep nothing like sharing this strong economy around and sharing the proceeds of the mining boom.
Oh yes forgot politicians wages up 50% with a corresponding increase in their super, what G.F.C they say.
Suck it up you whingers.


----------



## noco

DB008 said:


> Ha. Good one.
> 
> I really wonder what sort of economic position Australia would be in without the mining boom?




Gillard  now believes she is an authority on economics and is about to teach the world. LOL.

It is a pity she can't admit she was handed a good solid economy in 2007 by the Howard Government. From what I have observed, most of the European countries had very high debt and deficiances before the GFC. They also did not have the luxury of a minerals boom as in Australia. 

I believe the Labor Government should have been able to do twice as much with half the expenditure during the GFC instead of such waste as has been evident.


----------



## noco

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/hot-air-wont-ease-burdens/story-e6frerdf-1226397994663
Somebody please tell Ms. Gillard if she wants the cream to come out first, milk the cow while it is laying on it's back with its feet up in the air. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


----------



## Calliope

> Julia Gillard an even worse prime minister than Kevin Rudd, according to Courier-Mail Galaxy Poll




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...mail-galaxy-poll/story-e6freooo-1226398096458

Why is Gillard perceived to be a worse PM than Rudd? It can't be his charm. I think a revisit to this video is in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOUFKZBpFTY&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Eager

DB008 said:


> I really wonder what sort of economic position Australia would be in without the mining boom?



The entire mining industry of Australia only accounts for 10% of GDP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia


----------



## Julia

Eager said:


> The entire mining industry of Australia only accounts for 10% of GDP.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia



A bit of selective quoting there, Eager.  Here is the whole paragraph.


> The Australian economy is dominated by its service sector, representing 68% of GDP. The mining sector represents 10% of GDP; the "mining-related economy" represents 9% of GDP - the total mining sector represents 19% of GDP.[19] Economic growth is largely dependent on the mining sector. The economy expanded by 0.4% in the fourth quarter of 2011, and expanded by 1.3% in the first quarter of 2012.[20]




Note the phrase:  "Economic growth is largely dependent on the mining sector."


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> The entire mining industry of Australia only accounts for 10% of GDP.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia



So, if we made the Greens day and phased out mining over a 10 year period, are you suggesting that would only impact economic growth by 1%pa over that 10 year period (1.9%pa if you include the "mining-related economy") ?


----------



## Eager

Julia - I was expecting such a reply! I am fully aware of the other 9%, and the growth in that sector. But no-one can denounce the theory that Aussie companies would still provide the necessary services and experience the exponential growth in the mining services industry if the mines were actually located overseas...lower dollar and companies such as BLY, BKN, IDL, MAH ra ra ra.


----------



## Glen48

When you add in things like the cab driver who picks up the FIFO or the shop selling welding equipment it has to go much further the rest can make their own arrangements.


----------



## Eager

drsmith said:


> So, if we made the Greens day and phased out mining over a 10 year period



Please cite.


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> But no-one can denounce the theory that Aussie companies would still provide the necessary services and experience the exponential growth in the mining services industry if the mines were actually located overseas...



Like Greece ?


----------



## Eager

drsmith said:


> Like Greece ?



WTF are you on????


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> Please cite.




If you insist.



Eager said:


> The entire mining industry of Australia only accounts for 10% of GDP.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> WTF are you on????



Common sense.

You should try it sometime.


----------



## Julia

Glen48 said:


> When you add in things like the cab driver who picks up the FIFO or the shop selling welding equipment it has to go much further the rest can make their own arrangements.



Yes, good point.



Eager said:


> Julia - I was expecting such a reply! I am fully aware of the other 9%, and the growth in that sector. But no-one can denounce the theory that Aussie companies would still provide the necessary services and experience the exponential growth in the mining services industry if the mines were actually located overseas...lower dollar and companies such as BLY, BKN, IDL, MAH ra ra ra.



Oh, please.   Let's just shut all the mining down, ancillary services with it, and see how Australia goes.

Ms Gillard might find it a tad more difficult to lecture her European colleagues about Australia's great success then.  Heavens, she and Mr Swan might just regret having so bad mouthed the big mining company principals.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Common sense.
> 
> You should try it sometime.




Priceless.

I was thinking this forum was being hijacked by dicks, thanks for bringing it back to reality drsmith.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> Priceless.
> 
> I was thinking this forum was being hijacked by dicks, thanks for bringing it back to reality drsmith.




Don't be too hard on our young Eager Beaver. The poor guy is punching above his weight, and needs guidance.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> Don't be too hard on our young Eager Beaver. The poor guy is punching above his weight, and needs guidance.




Sorry, just got back from a three month holiday and thought the forum had become a bit lost. My mistake.LOL that's what happens when you hit 80.


----------



## sptrawler

This is another example of this governments lack of self appraisal. 
Tony Conroy telling Gina Rinehart she hasn't the right to trash the brand for all other shareholders.
Wasn't that what he was prepared to do to Telstra?
Talk about losing the plot, Julia telling the world how to fix their economies and Conroy telling Rinehart not to do what he does.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/bu...80110/conroy-warns-rinehart-over-fairfax-bid/


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> This is another example of this governments lack of self appraisal.
> Tony Conroy telling Gina Rinehart she hasn't the right to trash the brand for all other shareholders.
> Wasn't that what he was prepared to do to Telstra?
> Talk about losing the plot, Julia telling the world how to fix their economies and Conroy telling Rinehart not to do what he does.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/bu...80110/conroy-warns-rinehart-over-fairfax-bid/




I was just about to post the same thing what a hoot, Conroy telling Rinehart anything, she wouldn't employ him the clean the toilets at the mines.


----------



## Calliope

The new Messiah.  Our Julia lectures world leaders on the economy!





But:


> EUROPE has struck back at Julia Gillard's written demands for stimulus and political courage to solve the eurozone debt crisis.
> 
> European Commission president, Jose Manuel Barroso, has told the G20 summit in Mexico on its opening day that the EU is not the cause of the current crisis and will not be lectured by anyone.
> Speaking at the isolated luxury resort area in Mexico, Mr Barroso said: "Frankly, we are not coming here to receive lessons in terms of democracy or in terms of how to handle the economy."
> 
> Mr Barroso said he expected all G20 leaders "speak clearly in favour of the approach the EU is following".
> 
> Before the conference, the Prime Minister wrote to all G20 leaders urging them to adopt a spending as well as austerity policy and later urged them to follow "the Australian way" to economic success




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...barroso-has-said/story-fn59niix-1226400662528


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> The new Messiah.  Our Julia lectures world leaders on the economy!
> 
> View attachment 47494




Truly delusional........


----------



## Boggo

Pickering at his best !


----------



## sptrawler

Boggo said:


> Pickering at his best !




Absolutely brilliant. So accurate.


----------



## Joules MM1

Boggo said:


> Pickering at his best !



 lolol, not to put a too finer point on the post; do you mean bickering ?



> Before the conference, the Prime Minister wrote to all G20 leaders urging them to adopt a spending as well as austerity policy and later urged them to follow "the Australian way" to economic success




kinda reminds me of an early Iraq invasion press conference where an Australian reporter enquired about the impact of Australian forces on the ground only to be greeted with sneers and chuckles by other officers and reporters.....must admit, it was very very funny......yeah the rest of the world really cares about our opinion....haha


----------



## Eager

drsmith said:


> If you insist.



No,xxxxxxxxxx , PLEASE provide a link to your claim that the Greens want to phase out mining over a 10 year period!


----------



## Eager

sptrawler said:


> Priceless.
> 
> I was thinking this forum was being hijacked by dicks,



Apparently, that happened soon after its inception, and years before I joined.


----------



## Eager

Julia said:


> Oh, please.   Let's just shut all the mining down, ancillary services with it, and see how Australia goes.



Huh?

You might have to clarify - the original question was how would Australia be without our mining boom; my position is that it would not be a total wipeout of the full 19% of GDP because there would still be plenty of Aussie companies within the 9% component making a killing providing goods and services to miners overseas - capice?

Yet now we can't include them in the argument???


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Truly delusional........




+1. What a croak. What an embarrassment to Australia. OBE


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Sorry, just got back from a three month holiday and thought the forum had become a bit lost. My mistake.LOL that's what happens when you hit 80.




A birthday ? Congrats spt:alcohol:


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> No,xxxxxxxxxx , PLEASE provide a link to your claim that the Greens want to phase out mining over a 10 year period!



If you want to be selective about what you read from other people's posts, that's your problem.

If you're going to throw a tanty, do it in the corner on your own, preferably in silence.


----------



## Eager

Tanty? Hardly. It is a little frustrating at times though to continue to tolerate people who make ad-hoc remarks such as "So, if we made the Greens day and phased out mining over a 10 year period," as if it is actually Greens policy to do so, without providing a link to back that up. Your post was nonsense Doc, and remains so no matter what you have said since.


----------



## doctorj

Calliope said:


> The new Messiah. Our Julia lectures world leaders on the economy!
> 
> But:
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...barroso-has-said/story-fn59niix-1226400662528




I'm sure Barroso is crying himself to sleep as we speak having been lectured by the intellectual powerhouse that is Julia Gillard!

It was interesting to hear Gillard backpeddle on it all. I was streaming JJJ this morning and they played an interview her saying something to the effect of her having had a private meeting with Barroso and she told him that he was well liked by the Australian media etc etc. Her nose was browner than what's left in your average nappy.

Absolutely pathetic! If you think you're wise enough to lecture world leaders in a public forum, atleast have the cajones to stand by it! If you can't stand up to someone as insignificant and irrelevant as Barroso (who?????), then who can you stand up against?


----------



## drsmith

Eager said:


> Tanty? Hardly. It is a little frustrating at times though to continue to tolerate people who make ad-hoc remarks such as "So, if we made the Greens day and phased out mining over a 10 year period," as if it is actually Greens policy to do so, without providing a link to back that up. Your post was nonsense Doc, and remains so no matter what you have said since.



It would make the Greens day. They know practically though that it can't be done.

I'm more interested in how you feel phasing out mining would impact the economy given your post about mining accounting for 10% of GDP. That after all was the original question.


----------



## drsmith

Boggo said:


> Pickering at his best !



He should have swung her around.

No doubt she would try looking the audience in the eye from that end as well.


----------



## bellenuit

doctorj said:


> If you can't stand up to someone as insignificant and irrelevant as Barroso (who?????), then who can you stand up against?




Who is Barroso?  Ask Nigel Farage MEP, UKIP. Hilarious!

*Farage: 'Barroso in the Bunker' planning world domination*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kdg49YaI4Q


----------



## sptrawler

Yes doctorj, the whole labor party is only just managing not to gag on its own crap. IMO
Conroy telling people not to hold shareholders or companies to ransom( like he did with Telstra). 
Gillard telling everyone how well labor has done( running up the biggest budget deficits ever). 
Shorten saying, I'm a goose with a pole up my rear agreeing with anything Julia says( even if it is wrong). 
Swan saying any garbage (but nobody listens to him anyway).
Seats are burning Garret, who they apparently wanted to throw out but he wouldn't go.
Penny, well we won't go there, too topical
M.V.P Bob Brown, pulling up stumps after pulling off a blinder.

I wish them all well with the dirt file plan, best they sack the pommie and employ Stephen Spielberg or George Lucas. They really are going to need some special effects to cover the lack of substance in the story to date.


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> Who is Barroso?  Ask Nigel Farage MEP, UKIP. Hilarious!
> 
> *Farage: 'Barroso in the Bunker' planning world domination*
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kdg49YaI4Q



He knows how to dish it out.


----------



## noco

Gillard has been ticked off well and truly. 



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...barroso-has-said/story-fn59niix-1226400662528


----------



## drsmith

I suspect her criticism of the Europeans was more for domestic consumption.

She should take lessons from the character above, or better still, he should come over here and give our government a serve.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> Yes doctorj, the whole labor party is only just managing not to gag on its own crap. IMO
> Conroy telling people not to hold shareholders or companies to ransom( like he did with Telstra).
> Gillard telling everyone how well labor has done( running up the biggest budget deficits ever).
> Shorten saying, I'm a goose with a pole up my rear agreeing with anything Julia says( even if it is wrong).
> Swan saying any garbage (but nobody listens to him anyway).
> Seats are burning Garret, who they apparently wanted to throw out but he wouldn't go.
> Penny, well we won't go there, too topical
> M.V.P Bob Brown, pulling up stumps after pulling off a blinder.
> 
> I wish them all well with the dirt file plan, best they sack the pommie and employ Stephen Spielberg or George Lucas. They really are going to need some special effects to cover the lack of substance in the story to date.




I think you are a bit annoyed with them trawler.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> I think you are a bit annoyed with them trawler.




Mate I am so over them, I just wish they would go to an election so the true feeling of the Australian population, as to their worth, could be judged.
If they were people of honour and believed their deeds were reflective of the electorate, they would go to an election on their merit. LOL,LOL,LOL
No they are just running around telling everyone how good they are, yet not putting it up for judgement.
Yes go to the G20 and say how great a government they are, yet are too scared to call an election.
Absolute XXXXXXXXXXXXXXwits.

Well done Calliope, I said to myself I wouldn't get wound up about these goons after the holiday, well that lasted about 14 days.


----------



## dutchie

Europe bristles after Julia Gillard's nagging over economic management.

The stupidity of this PM on a daily basis is beyond belief.

Not only is she worst PM Australia has ever had but she is also the dumbest.


----------



## sails

dutchie said:


> Europe bristles after Julia Gillard's nagging over economic management.
> 
> The stupidity of this PM on a daily basis is beyond belief.
> 
> Not only is she worst PM Australia has ever had but she is also the dumbest.





And seemingly delusional.  Seems unbelievable that she waddles around and carries on with "look at moi" while seeming totally oblivious that her and her ludicrous policies are simply not wanted and despised by the majority.


----------



## Julia

The small point she fails to mention when lecturing Europe on how to fix their difficulties is that the Labor government here started off in a position of inheriting a substantial surplus which allowed them the stimulus she is so fond of mentioning.  Hardly a situation Europe finds itself in.


----------



## Calliope

> Ms Gillard said the Australian economy was the "envy of the world" and world leaders just "sighed" when she told them about the economy in Australia.




Perhaps they were just snoring.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Perhaps they were just snoring.




Maybe it is a diversion from us talking about  Craig Thomson, Peter Slipper, the carbon dioxide tax, the flood of boat people, the BER, pink batts and all the other stuff ups.


----------



## joea

I see the Labor party beginning to implode.
Gillard is campaigning over seas on the world stage!
Combet is starting to talk rot.
Roxon is carrying on .
Conroy is sniping at Abbott.
Conroy has ok'd the New Limited shake up, like he has much say in the matter!
Carr is where we like him, out of the country.
Where is Kevin.?:couch
Shorten must be up to something!!!
joea


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> I see the Labor party beginning to implode.
> Gillard is campaigning over seas on the world stage!
> Combet is starting to talk rot.
> Roxon is carrying on .
> Conroy is sniping at Abbott.
> Conroy has ok'd the New Limited shake up, like he has much say in the matter!
> Carr is where we like him, out of the country.
> Where is Kevin.?:couch
> Shorten must be up to something!!!
> joea




I've got chronicaly fatigued at this Labor Party, and gone into auto pilot over all this cringe-worthy embarrassment.  It's one thing to get up the nose of your own electorate.  We deserve it because we partially put them there.

I mean this collectively, accepting the weasel job Gillard did after the poll without giving a thought to cutting lose her 'no carbon tax' promise.

But to venture overseas and do a "Kath and Kim" meets "Wayne's World" impersonation just shows how insular they are.

I suspect most of the electorate are just going into hibernation and just waiting to unleash at the election.  It correlates with the pollsters showing the 'switch off' effect.

The next 12 months are going to seem like an eternity.


----------



## noco

StumpyPhantom said:


> I've got chronicaly fatigued at this Labor Party, and gone into auto pilot over all this cringe-worthy embarrassment.  It's one thing to get up the nose of your own electorate.  We deserve it because we partially put them there.
> 
> I mean this collectively, accepting the weasel job Gillard did after the poll without giving a thought to cutting lose her 'no carbon tax' promise.
> 
> But to venture overseas and do a "Kath and Kim" meets "Wayne's World" impersonation just shows how insular they are.
> 
> I suspect most of the electorate are just going into hibernation and just waiting to unleash at the election.  It correlates with the pollsters showing the 'switch off' effect.
> 
> The next 12 months are going to seem like an eternity.




I have a feeling you won't have to wait another 12 months.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> I have a feeling you won't have to wait another 12 months.




And I hope you are right, Noco...


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> The next 12 months are going to seem like an eternity.




I agree, but look on the bright side it appears she has got her dress sense correct.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ine-lagarde-says/story-e6freuzr-1226403581746

She may even go shopping over there, and we can look forward to her first media appearance back in oz.

joea


----------



## joea

Trust me Gillard is going for a Nobel prize or a humanity award.

As she puts the Australians into poverty, she is traveling the Globe solving other nations problems.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...un-group-tackling-poverty-20120621-20pdw.html

joea


----------



## noco

If Ms Gillard goes ahead with her dirt file she could be in for more than she bargained for in the future as explained by Larry Pickering.


Home Live Gallery Blog About Contact JULIA IN DEEPER **** THAN CRAIG:

Thomson is involved in rorting $500,000 from the HSU.

Gillard is involved in rorting $1 million from the AWU.

To date, no attempt has been made by either union to recover one cent.

As a backbencher, Thomson had no clout with media.

As Prime Minister, Gillard used her clout to kill the story... and this is how she did it:

Bruce Wilson was an AWU heavy and Gillard’s boyfriend at the time. He had been threatening developers in a thinly disguised, mob-style protection racket: Industrial peace for payment... up to $50,000 at a time.

The payments went straight to accounts Gillard had arranged while she was still working for the Left wing law firm, Slater & Gordon.

Gillard was into the scam up to her elbows and, as she was screwing Wilson at the time, pillow talk wasn’t confined to her other sexual exploits including married father, and current, Trade Minister Craig Emerson and now Gold Coast spiv Tim Mathieson who departed the Coast leaving multiple unpaid debts.

Her part in the scam was rewarded with $50,000 of renovations to her house and a $25,000 account at a top fashion house (although one could be forgiven for thinking she never used it.)

The story broke and Gillard went into frenzied damage control.

When the dust settled, Gillard was still PM but ground-breaking journalists were sacked, News Ltd CEO, John Hartigan, resigned. Both Fairfax and News Ltd immediately spiked the story and pulled broadcasts, Andrew Bolt threatened to resign, Laurie Oakes was told, “Don’t even think about it!” Blogs disappeared in a cloud of dust. Radio jocks were instructed to drop it.

ABC and ‘The Australian’ journalist, Glenn Milne, had spent months carefully documenting Gillard’s devastating involvement. His story had been legalled and it ran in ‘The Australian’ on Monday, August 1st 2011. It was immediately pulled after one phone call from Gillard.

Slavish supporter of Gillard, the ABC, promptly sacked Milne.

Gillard continued a barrage of phone calls to the then CEO of News Ltd, John Hartigan and there was a meeting arranged at the offices of News Ltd. What exactly was said at that meeting may never be known but it certainly didn’t resemble what Gillard said it was about.

The Leveson Hacking Inquiry was threatening to engulf Australia’s media and Gillard saw her opportunity. She used Bob Brown as a verbal battering ram to threaten Fairfax and Murdoch with an “inquiry”. Gillard herself publicly entered the fray with her now famous utterance: “There are questions that need to be answered.” That statement was carefully crafted to put the fear of God into the media. After much questioning she has refused to say what those questions might be.

A Leveson-style inquiry here would mutilate the very core of Australia’s media and their executives as it has, and is still doing, in the UK.

Fairfax and Murdoch executives, to put it bluntly, were ****ting themselves. Their indecent grappling for a piece of an ever-decreasing circulation market-share would have opened an ugly can of worms. A can I will let sit for another time.

So, this squalid deal was done but the sordid tale still bubbles below the surface. It reaches to the very heart of the Labor movement. We are witnessing only the tip of unions’ mob-like protection rackets and their corrupt manipulation of our Parliaments.

This shameful story will eventually be told in full colour. It will be a long and agonising read.

But, in the interim, today’s fetid political power holds sway.

LARRY PICKERING • 6 days ago


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> Trust me Gillard is going for a Nobel prize or a humanity award.
> 
> As she puts the Australians into poverty, she is traveling the Globe solving other nations problems.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...un-group-tackling-poverty-20120621-20pdw.html
> 
> joea



It's clearly too much to hope that she might devote some attention to the thousands of Australians living in poverty.

The following letter appeared in "The Australian" yesterday.  Says it all imo:



> G20 Lecture does not tell Full Story
> 
> Would it not have been nice if Julia Gillard had stood up and said, "My fellow world and business leaders, I have been fortunate to lead a government that I took by way of another leader really stuffing up his relationships with his subordinates.
> We inherited a very nice surplus which allowed us to spend our way out of potential recession.  Unfortunately, that money has all gone and we have to responsibly borrow millions daily but my luck rolls on.
> 
> We just happen to be sitting on the world's greatest quarry and have the world's biggest customer (China) just up the road, so despite a few minor hiccups, we look pretty good in comparison to most of you.
> 
> "I have managed to encourage my fellow country persons to pay the world's highest non-voluntary contribution for the air that they breathe.  I've also put in place the best mining tax in the world.
> 
> And if I can just keep a couple of minor irritants under control domestically then I'm in power for another years at least.
> 
> You beauty."


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> Trust me Gillard is going for a Nobel prize or a humanity award.
> 
> As she puts the Australians into poverty, she is traveling the Globe solving other nations problems.
> 
> 
> 
> joea



It's clearly too much to hope that she might devote some attention to the thousands of Australians living in poverty.

The following letter appeared in "The Australian" yesterday.  Says it all imo:



> G20 Lecture does not tell Full Story
> 
> Would it not have been nice if Julia Gillard had stood up and said, "My fellow world and business leaders, I have been fortunate to lead a government that I took by way of another leader really stuffing up his relationships with his subordinates.
> We inherited a very nice surplus which allowed us to spend our way out of potential recession.  Unfortunately, that money has all gone and we have to responsibly borrow millions daily but my luck rolls on.
> 
> We just happen to be sitting on the world's greatest quarry and have the world's biggest customer (China) just up the road, so despite a few minor hiccups, we look pretty good in comparison to most of you.
> 
> "I have managed to encourage my fellow country persons to pay the world's highest non-voluntary contribution for the air that they breathe.  I've also put in place the best mining tax in the world.
> 
> And if I can just keep a couple of minor irritants under control domestically then I'm in power for another years at least.
> 
> You beauty."


----------



## DB008

Julia said:


> The following letter appeared in "The Australian" yesterday.  Says it all imo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G20 Lecture does not tell Full Story
> 
> Would it not have been nice if Julia Gillard had stood up and said, "My fellow world and business leaders, I have been fortunate to lead a government that I took by way of another leader really stuffing up his relationships with his subordinates.
> We inherited a very nice surplus which allowed us to spend our way out of potential recession. Unfortunately, that money has all gone and we have to responsibly borrow millions daily but my luck rolls on.
> 
> We just happen to be sitting on the world's greatest quarry and have the world's biggest customer (China) just up the road, so despite a few minor hiccups, we look pretty good in comparison to most of you.
> 
> "I have managed to encourage my fellow country persons to pay the world's highest non-voluntary contribution for the air that they breathe. I've also put in place the best mining tax in the world.
> 
> And if I can just keep a couple of minor irritants under control domestically then I'm in power for another years at least.
> 
> You beauty."
Click to expand...



+1
I concur Captain, or should that be 'Comrade'? LOL


----------



## StumpyPhantom

noco said:


> If Ms Gillard goes ahead with her dirt file she could be in for more than she bargained for in the future as explained by Larry Pickering.
> 
> 
> Home Live Gallery Blog About Contact JULIA IN DEEPER **** THAN CRAIG:
> ...
> 
> Gillard is involved in rorting $1 million from the AWU.
> 
> ....
> 
> LARRY PICKERING • 6 days ago




This is such a huge story it's barely believable.  Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.


----------



## Glen48

A mate tells me on the news once the Carbon tax kicks in a bottle of  Freon gas used in Air con's . fridge's etc is from $2,000 to $12,000 that should help pollute the country side with old units, and  help import more new ones from over seas were there is no carbon tax and Australian manufactures can't compete.


----------



## noco

It looks like pay back time from a sacked disgruntled former Attorney General Robert McClleland.

Perhaps another nail in Ms Gillard's coffin.

It's happeneing down Canberra Way.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...onfronted_with_the_scandal_she_almost_buried/


----------



## joea

StumpyPhantom said:


> This is such a huge story it's barely believable.  Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.




All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    [info][add][mail]
    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

joea


----------



## Boggo

This is scary but worth a listen -
http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=12080&task=view&id=12080


----------



## DB008

Boggo said:


> This is scary but worth a listen -
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=12080&task=view&id=12080




Boggo, that is GOLD!

1:30-1:35......'_No..??.._'....and goes downhill from there....LOLOLOLOLOLOL.....


----------



## StumpyPhantom

joea said:


> All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
> [info][add][mail]
> Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)
> 
> joea




Yeah!! Just read the article linked by Noco.  I'm almost at the 'accepted as self-evident' stage.

If I were cross-examining Gillard right now in the witness box, I'd be asking her to expand a little bit on what she meant by being 'young and naive' at the time.

This is now no longer a blanket denial (ala the Craig Thomson beyond the level of implausibility).  This is now a situation where the Prime Minister, focusing on an action or a series of actions, has labelled it 'young and naive'.

Dare I say it, a line has been crossed.

So let's start from the start.  What are those actions?  And what in particular do you attach the word 'naive' to?  Is it wrongdoing?  Did you accept money to renovate your house which you now accept as naive?  Or were you just naive in your relationship choices?  

That phrase 'young and naive' is meant to trigger in most normal minds something of the latter.  Oh, I was a fool to hang around with that person.  I can accept that.  So many of us were fools to vote for the ALP.

So, if that was the problem, let's just come out and say that and then...dare I say it again... moving forward.

But IF that was the problem, then the 'fool' excuse should have been paraded a long time ago.  This is big.  Craig Thomson might have company on the cross benches.


----------



## DB008

Boggo said:


> This is scary but worth a listen -
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=12080&task=view&id=12080






DB008 said:


> Boggo, that is GOLD!
> 
> 1:30-1:35......'_No..??.._'....and goes downhill from there....LOLOLOLOLOLOL.....





Up on Youtube already

Gai Brodtmann Clarifying Superannuation and the Mining Tax.mp4
(Skip to 4:30)


----------



## Boggo

Larry Pickering wrote this on his Facebook page RICHO:

Graham Richardson (Richo) claimed on Sky this morning that Craig Thomson's activities were a one-off anomaly. "All other ALP officials are hard working honest people", he said, trying to keep his face from going five shades redder.

Crumbs, I nearly choked on my Weetbix.

Richo is a product of the infamous NSW Right faction and his hands are filthy to his elbows in ALP criminal grime.

The only difference between Richo and Thomson is that Richo is smart and Thomson has an IQ of four.

Richardson's hookers were always arranged by a third party. He never signed credit cards. Those "third parties" were notorious Gold Coast and Sydney crims.

He had serious connections to Lenny MacPherson, Rene Rivkin, Rodney Adler's FAI insurance company and Swiss bank accounts that held the insurance payout from FAI for the Offset Alpine fire. The payout was
$53 million. The fire was arson.

[Offset Alpine was a Sydney printing company. I used them to print my calendars until, one dark Christmas eve, they were no longer there.]

This question was asked in the NSW Parliament: "Who were the persons responsible for the Offset Alpine Printing company fire, which resulted in a $53 million insurance payout for printing machines worth only $3 million, and whether any of those persons who purchased shares in this company, such as Messrs Rivkin, Richardson, Kennedy, Martin, Wood or any other persons, had advance knowledge of this fire and the anticipated rapid million-dollar insurance payout by Mr Adler's FAI insurance company?"

Gordon Wood, Rivkin's driver and confidant had been convicted of the murder of Carolyn Byrne.

The CJC, ASIC and NSW Police had tried for seven years to nail Richardson, Rivkin and Kennedy but failed.

What happened is this:
Senator Richardson, Rene Rivkin and Packer's Bulletin editor, Trevor Kennedy, curiously became controlling shareholders in the Silverwater printing company. The company was worth no more than
$3.5 million. It was insured through Rodney Adler's FAI for $53 million. Rodney Adler purchased almost 10% of the company shares two days before the fire.

The $53 million insurance was hurriedly, and without protest, paid to a Swiss bank account. But much more was made as a result of the soaring share price. Even the ASX was aware of the insurance policy and the real value of the printing company.

When (front-bencher) Richo looked certain to be sprung he went to Keating and promptly resigned.

So please, Richo, don't sit there on SKY TV and explain that Craig Thomson is an anomaly.

What you really mean is that Thomson is just stupid enough to get caught... you weren't.


----------



## dutchie

Boggo said:


> Larry Pickering wrote this on his Facebook page RICHO:
> 
> Graham Richardson (Richo) claimed on Sky this morning that Craig Thomson's activities were a one-off anomaly. "All other ALP officials are hard working honest people", he said, trying to keep his face from going five shades redder.




Richo, (who are you trying to kid), has lost all credibility with statements like this.

He would have been better stating the truth in that Craig Thomson's and Williamson's stealing are just the tip of the iceberg in relation to corruption in the union/Labor party activities.


----------



## joea

Boggo said:


> What you really mean is that Thomson is just stupid enough to get caught... you weren't.



+1
This one of those posts that implies the truth.
I like that!!!
joea


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> Up on Youtube already
> 
> Gai Brodtmann Clarifying Superannuation and the Mining Tax.mp4
> (Skip to 4:30)



She's probably getting emergency training in handling the media as I type.


----------



## Glen48

Like fire warnings the world economies now have a rating :

The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent events in the Middle East and have therefore raised their security level from "Miffed" to "Peeved."Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross." The English have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from "Tiresome" to "A Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued a "Bloody Nuisance" warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.The Scots have raised their threat level from "Pissed Off" to "Let's get the Bastards." They don't have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years. The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide." The only two higher levels in France are "Collaborate" and "Surrender." The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively paralyzing the country's military capability. Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout Loudly and Excitedly" to "Elaborate Military Posturing." Two more levels remain: "Ineffective Combat Operations" and "Change Sides." The Germans have increased their alert state from "Disdainful Arrogance" to "Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs." They also have two higher levels: "Invade a Neighbor" and "Lose." Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual; the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels. The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy. Australia, meanwhile, has raised its security level from "No worries" to "She'll be alright, Mate." Two more escalation levels remain: "Crikey! I think we'll need to cancel the barbie this weekend!" and "The barbie is cancelled." So far no situation has ever warranted use of the last final escalation level.A final thought - "Greece is collapsing, the Iranians are getting aggressive, and Rome is in disarray. Welcome back to 480 BC"...


----------



## StumpyPhantom

I'm intrigued by this report from Sptrawler on another thread:



> I was down at the Stage Door last night and Julia was the main subject of discussion, everyone was saying how much they despised her. Funny thing was they were mainly poor people from what I could make out.




Intrigued because I'm wondering whether it matches my dislike.  The knifing of Rudd and the carbon tax backflip (I've stopped calling it a lie) are obviously on everybody's radar.

But looking deep inside my own thoughts, I come up with personal dislike.  That's very unsettling because that happens so rarely with someone you've never met before.

And yet the people I've spoken to, I detect the same personal dislike.  How is this so?  Maybe the Labor supporters here can help.  Do you actually like Gillard?  Or does blind faith prevent you even broaching that question?

I try to compare with previous PMs.  Keating was apparently loathed, but I liked him because he clearly had passion, was courageous, and had a cutting tongue.  Aloof and arrogant were often used to describe him, but I just saw him as unwavering in his determination to promote his stated agenda (OK, so he shouldn't have called Hewson a feral abacus).

I never personally liked Howard, although I shook his hand twice, once just before he lost to Rudd and lost his seat, and the second time about 18 months ago in the middle of Sydney.  But I respected him, though not necessarily his policies.  I got the feeling he learnt through his time as PM, that without admitting as much, he learnt from his mistakes.  He realised he was wrong to give the nudge/wink to Hanson, his lost temper at an Indigenous conference when the audience turned their back on him and booed him.

I would never go up to Gillard to shake her hand.  I would go up to Rudd and commiserate with him.  I thought Rudd's mouth was just too big for his own good, but he is much bigger the man for having taken his bitter medicine - twice.

What is it with Gillard that makes her so despised?  Can anyone out there say she is loved?  Or that they love her?  Could we hear from a Gillard lover?


----------



## joea

Stumpy.
I think 25% of the voter turned off the first day in parliament, when  she looked at Tony Abbott and said with arrogance "BRING IT ON".
It all went down hill after the lie on the carbon tax. 
As far as I am concerned she is probably 'bi-polar".
Check Two Wolf thread. She really has to have her mind on the job to be nice.
The media play mind games with her now  to bring out the dark side.

joea


----------



## Calliope

Glen48 said:


> Australia, meanwhile, has raised its security level from "No worries" to "She'll be alright, Mate." Two more escalation levels remain: "Crikey! I think we'll need to cancel the barbie this weekend!" and "The barbie is cancelled." So far no situation has ever warranted use of the last final escalation level.




G'day Glen. I searched your post to try to find what relevance it has to this thread. The above bit was the closest I could find. You may be on to something. I think that Gillard's malicious carbon tax could impose a direct threat to that Australian institution - The Barbie. The Barbie might have to go underground.


----------



## Glen48

Calliope Guess the safest way would be to collect the dangerous gas and put it in a bag and throw it in the ocean.

*John Smith*​​​*A White Indigenous Australian*​​​*Started the day early having set his alarm clock*​​​
*(MADE IN JAPAN )
For 6 am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

While his coffeepot


(MADE IN CHINA)
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Was perking, he shaved with his


Electric razor


(MADE IN HONG KONG)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He put on a


Dress shirt


(MADE IN SRI LANKA),

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Designer jeans


(MADE IN SINGAPORE)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And


Tennis shoes


(MADE IN KOREA)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After cooking his breakfast in his new


Electric skillet


(MADE IN INDIA)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He sat down with his


Calculator


(MADE IN MEXICO)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To see how much he could spend today.*​​​*After setting his
Watch


(MADE IN TAIWAN )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To the radio


(MADE IN INDIA )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He got in his car


(MADE IN GERMANY )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Filled it with PETROL


(from Saudi Arabia )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And continued his search


For a good paying AUSTRALIAN JOB.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At the end of yet another discouraging


And fruitless day


Checking his


Computer


( made in MALAYSIA ),
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John decided to relax for a while.


He put on his sandals


(MADE IN BRAZIL ),
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Poured himself a glass of


Cheap wine


(MADE IN FRANCE )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And turned on his


TV


(MADE IN INDONESIA ),
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And then wondered why he can't


Find a good paying job in*​​​



*AUSTRALIA*



* 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AND NOW HE'S HOPING HE CAN GET HELP FROM THE GOVERNMENT WHO ARE GOING TO CREATE EVEN **"MORE JOBS OVERSEAS"* *WITH A*​​​*CARBON TAX*​​​*DESIGNED TO DESTROY EVEN MORE AUSTRALIAN *​​​


----------



## Julia

StumpyPhantom said:


> Intrigued because I'm wondering whether it matches my dislike.  The knifing of Rudd and the carbon tax backflip (I've stopped calling it a lie) are obviously on everybody's radar.
> 
> But looking deep inside my own thoughts, I come up with personal dislike.  That's very unsettling because that happens so rarely with someone you've never met before.



It's an interesting question.  I don't feel that same personal dislike toward Ms Gillard to the extent I felt it toward Mr Rudd.  I've certainly never met either of them.  Asking myself the basis for reaction to each of these people, I can only come up with the views of people who know them, plus obviously their public performance.

Ms Gillard's colleagues seem to find her personally pleasant - relaxed, friendly and approachable.
The opposite is said about Mr Rudd.  
I despise most of the policies of both so I guess under that circumstance having a sense of 'liking' either of them is unlikely.



> And yet the people I've spoken to, I detect the same personal dislike.  How is this so?  Maybe the Labor supporters here can help.  Do you actually like Gillard?  Or does blind faith prevent you even broaching that question?



My guess is the last sentence, given their unwillingness to ever acknowledge any failed policy.



> I never personally liked Howard, although I shook his hand twice, once just before he lost to Rudd and lost his seat, and the second time about 18 months ago in the middle of Sydney.  But I respected him, though not necessarily his policies.  I got the feeling he learnt through his time as PM, that without admitting as much, he learnt from his mistakes.  He realised he was wrong to give the nudge/wink to Hanson, his lost temper at an Indigenous conference when the audience turned their back on him and booed him.



Never met him either but had a sense of liking and respect until he committed Australia to Afghanistan and Iraq.



> I would never go up to Gillard to shake her hand.  I would go up to Rudd and commiserate with him.  I thought Rudd's mouth was just too big for his own good, but he is much bigger the man for having taken his bitter medicine - twice.



Is he?  Or does  his ambition still burn brightly and he is waiting to be asked to return when the Party finally dumps Ms Gillard?


----------



## sptrawler

I was reading today, that labor is pinning its hopes on the fact that when the carbon tax comes into play on July 1, nothing will happen.
This actually sums up the problem with this government, they underestimate the publics intelligence, actually treat it with contempt.
It is hard to believe how out of touch a government can get, yet still feel that given time the electorate will swallow the crap. Unbelievable IMO


----------



## sptrawler

Th news polls still don't look good for labor, however I think they will do a lot worse than the news polls indicate.
If you take into account the results of the Queensland and N.S.W elections, it points to a worse result than the polls are predicting.
I have never heard as many people openly venting their political views in public before. It is really strange a bit like when the housing boom was in full swing all people talked about was property investment.
In the past however most have shied from talking politics at bbq's etc. Now it seems to be something they all have in common a dislike of labor.


----------



## Julia

I've noticed the same.  People who have never discussed politics in the past now vent their disgust.
At the same time, there's significant caution about Tony Abbott.


----------



## Glen48

*A Soldier’s Wife Confesses *
*This came from a Soldier’s wife. It says it all: 
"I sat, as did millions of other Australians, and watched as the government 
Underwent a peaceful transition of power twelve months ago. 
At first, I felt a swell of pride and patriotism while 
Julia Gillard took her oath of office. 
However, all that pride quickly vanished as I later watched 21 SAS Soldiers 
In full dress uniform with rifles, 
Fire a 21-gun salute to the Prime Minister. 
It was then that I realized how far Australia's military had deteriorated..*

*
Every one of them missed the b$%*h."*




















-





​


----------



## dutchie

The good fortune Gillard has is that, although everyone knows how incompetent she is and that she is the worst PM ever, Labor has no one to replace her.


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> The good fortune Gillard has is that, although everyone knows how incompetent she is and that she is the worst PM ever, Labor has no one to replace her.




It will be interesting to hear what Shorten is up to!
Also what his support is like after the HSU saga.?
joea


----------



## dutchie

The Gillard/Greens/Independents government *will do nothing *about the crisis in the illegal boats trying to reach Australia - they will continue to put their heads in the sand assuming the problem will go away on its own.


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> The Gillard/Greens/Independents government *will do nothing *about the crisis in the illegal boats trying to reach Australia - they will continue to put their heads in the sand assuming the problem will go away on its own.




Gillard plea for offshore solution.!!!
Abbott was on the radio today saying she has not even contacted him.
joea


----------



## numbercruncher

joea said:


> Gillard plea for offshore solution.!!!
> Abbott was on the radio today saying she has not even contacted him.
> joea




Pure politics - he knows her phone number.

Plenty more deaths I bet while both sides play political games, im on neither side but the right wingers seem to enjoy having someone to blame.


----------



## Miss Hale

numbercruncher said:


> Pure politics - he knows her phone number.




What? Is Tony Abbott running the country all of a sudden.  The responsibility is Gillard's.  Pure politics, she knows his number.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> What? Is Tony Abbott running the country all of a sudden.  The responsibility is Gillard's.  Pure politics, she knows his number.




.+1


----------



## numbercruncher

Miss Hale said:


> What? Is Tony Abbott running the country all of a sudden.  The responsibility is Gillard's.  Pure politics, she knows his number.




Whos talking about running the "country" ?

This particular issue requires a bipartisan approach.



> TONY Abbott has rejected Julia Gillard's call for fresh talks to break the nation's border protection impasse, sparking Labor claims he "sees political advantage in people dying".
> 
> The Opposition Leader today said he saw no point in further talks with the government on asylum-seeker policy, declaring: “What is there to negotiate?”
> 
> Parliamentary Secretary for Climate Change, Mark Dreyfus, said it was a “disgraceful” approach.
> 
> “You're left thinking that he sees political advantage in people dying,” Mr Dreyfus said.
> 
> Following the deaths of up to 90 asylum-seekers north of Christmas Island last week, the Prime Minister yesterday appealed to Mr Abbott to negotiate a new agreement to prevent further deaths.
> 
> But the Opposition Leader said voters wanted effective policies, not further talks.
> 
> “What is there to negotiate?” Mr Abbott told Seven's Sunrise program. “The Prime Minister just wants us to accept a dud deal. Now, she hasn't moved on at all.”




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/tony-abbott-rejects-new-talks-on-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226408670533


----------



## MrBurns

numbercruncher said:


> Whos talking about running the "country" ?
> This particular issue requires a bipartisan approach.




Ok let Labor handle it with their mates the Greens, the Libs wont send women and children to Malaysia nor should they, Gillard just continues to kill people with her self centered "I must get my way" attitude.


----------



## numbercruncher

As ive said war mongering right wing oil lovers caused half these issues in the first place.

Both sides of politics needs to fix this despite how many of you want to blame each side of politics.



> According to the U.N., roughly 40% of Iraq's middle class is believed to have fled. Most are fleeing systematic persecution and have no desire to return.[13] Refugees are mired in poverty as they are generally barred from working in their host countries.[14][15] In Syria alone an estimated 50,000 Iraqi girls and women, many of them widows, are forced into prostitution just to survive.[16][17]


----------



## MrBurns

numbercruncher said:


> As ive said war mongering right wing oil lovers caused half these issues in the first place.
> Both sides of politics needs to fix this despite how many of you want to blame each side of politics.




Julia Gillard better get on with it and do her job then eh ?


----------



## numbercruncher

MrBurns said:


> Julia Gillard better get on with it and do her job then eh ?




Yup I imagine they will probably be forced to open Nauru so Tony can puff out his chest and high five his mates , im not sure that will be a vote winner for him though ?

And on the flipside is it going to stop boatpeople fleeing persecution from drowning ? Maybe it will come with lifejackets ? :1zhelp:



> LABOR may have to resort to sending asylum seekers to Nauru without their preferred option of transferring them to Malaysia after appeals by the government for the opposition to meet it halfway on policy fell on deaf ears.
> 
> Despite three cabinet ministers urging yesterday the opposition to allow Labor's Malaysia plan in return for reopening a processing centre on Nauru, the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, was unmoved, saying it was *his way or nothing*.
> 
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/opinion/political-news/labor-to-use-nauru-centre-to-win-asylum-negotiations-20120624-20wj1.html?skin=text-only


----------



## numbercruncher

Glen48 said:


> *A Soldier’s Wife Confesses *
> *This came from a Soldier’s wife. It says it all:
> "I sat, as did millions of other Australians, and watched as the government
> Underwent a peaceful transition of power twelve months ago.
> At first, I felt a swell of pride and patriotism while
> Julia Gillard took her oath of office.
> However, all that pride quickly vanished as I later watched 21 SAS Soldiers
> In full dress uniform with rifles,
> Fire a 21-gun salute to the Prime Minister.
> It was then that I realized how far Australia's military had deteriorated..*
> 
> *
> Every one of them missed the b$%*h."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​





I dont think many who voted for the Rudd Labor government took much pride in that being stolen without a vote.


----------



## drsmith

numbercruncher said:


> Whos talking about running the "country" ?
> 
> This particular issue requires a bipartisan approach.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/tony-abbott-rejects-new-talks-on-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226408670533



Tony Abbott is playing hard ball and it's the right choice for now.

Even with a deal agreed, he still wouldn't be able to trust her. Just ask Andrew Wilkie.


----------



## IFocus

Miss Hale said:


> What? Is Tony Abbott running the country all of a sudden.  The responsibility is Gillard's.  Pure politics, she knows his number.





Abbott is the one with the political smirk at the moment I sense a media that might finally start asking questions.............only Abbott wont answer.


----------



## numbercruncher

drsmith said:


> Tony Abbott is playing hard ball and it's the right choice for now.
> 
> Even with a deal agreed, he still wouldn't be able to trust her. Just ask Andrew Wilkie.





Why are you so sure its the right choice ?

Swinging voters will choose the government at the next election and his hardcore approach and especially comments im sure arnt going down well.


----------



## drsmith

numbercruncher said:


> Why are you so sure its the right choice ?
> 
> Swinging voters will choose the government at the next election and his hardcore approach and especially comments im sure arnt going down well.



Voters first and foremost will be judging the government.

It's as simple as that and Tony Abbott knows it. There's a political price to be paid for sticking to his ground, but he may have decided that that's less of a risk than trusting Julia Gillard.


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Voters first and foremost will be judging the government.
> 
> It's as simple as that and Tony Abbott knows it. There's a political price to be paid for sticking to his ground, but he may have decided that that's less of a risk than trusting Julia Gillard.





It would be a major mistake for Abbott to make any sort of deal with the lying Gillard.

I would not trust her as far as I could throw her.


Its her mess she needs to clean it up! - but I guarantee she won't.


----------



## numbercruncher

This is a policy issue not a backdoor issue for two individuals.


----------



## drsmith

numbercruncher said:


> This is a policy issue not a backdoor issue for two individuals.



It's a policy issue mostly for the government, including those untouchable Greens who are part of the government.



dutchie said:


> Its her mess she needs to clean it up! - but I guarantee she won't.



She's hoping the Coalition will weaken. 

That's Labor's only hope of salvaging anything from this mess.


----------



## Miss Hale

numbercruncher said:


> Whos talking about running the "country" ?
> 
> This particular issue requires a bipartisan approach.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/tony-abbott-rejects-new-talks-on-boats/story-fn9hm1gu-1226408670533




This *is* running the country, dealing with these boats is the responsibility of the government, of which Gillard is the head.  Bi-partisan approach or not it's up to her to sort it out, if she needs the Coalition's help because she won't put pressure on the Greens - part of her own government- she needs to initiate it.


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> Gillard plea for offshore solution.!!!
> Abbott was on the radio today saying she has not even contacted him.
> joea






Miss Hale said:


> What? Is Tony Abbott running the country all of a sudden.  The responsibility is Gillard's.  Pure politics, she knows his number.






Miss Hale said:


> This *is* running the country, dealing with these boats is the responsibility of the government, of which Gillard is the head.  Bi-partisan approach or not it's up to her to sort it out, if she needs the Coalition's help because she won't put pressure on the Greens - part of her own government- she needs to initiate it.



Exactly right.  There's no political advantage to Tony Abbott to do anything.
The Labor government created the problem.  It's their responsibility to fix it.
At the very least they could put in writing their proposed revised position to Mr Abbott.
What have they done?   Sweet nothing other than mouth platitudes on the media.
Pathetic.


----------



## numbercruncher

Wrong.

the Liberal Government caused it all by invading countries at the request of George oil Bush that now supply the bulk of refugees and asylum seekers to the world market. You cant change the past no matter how many times you say labor caused this.


----------



## Julia

numbercruncher said:


> Wrong.
> 
> the Liberal Government caused it all by invading countries at the request of George oil Bush that now supply the bulk of refugees and asylum seekers to the world market. You cant change the past no matter how many times you say labor caused this.




Oh God, you have posted some ridiculous stuff on this forum but this about takes the cake.  How many years back will you choose to go in order to attempt to evade the question?  (it's a rhetorical question:  please do not attempt to answer).


We all know, yourself included, that the Howard government essentially stopped boat riding asylum seekers.
The government changed and so did the relevant policy in order to appease the Greens.
We are now seeing the results.
End of story.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

numbercruncher said:


> Wrong.
> 
> the Liberal Government caused it all by invading countries at the request of George oil Bush that now supply the bulk of refugees and asylum seekers to the world market. You cant change the past no matter how many times you say labor caused this.




Hmmm - I expressed part agreement with this sentiment a few days ago, just to get the debate past the alleged cause of the problem, so that the focus could be on the pernicious trade of people-smuggling.

But not any more, so let's start with Afghanistan.  As I previously said, the ethnic Hazaras who make their way to Australia by boat have been persecuted for centuries by the Taliban.  The so-called "George oil Bush" war has severely knee-capped the Taliban (ask Osama).  Still the ethnic Hazaras leave, stay in Pakistan, come to Australia because of their fear of persecution.  But let me ask you this.  Would their fear be much greater, and persecuted in much larger numbers if the Taliban had been allowed to roan Afghanistan with impunity?

With Iraq, was not Saddam Hussein the greatest persecutor of his own people, the Shias to the south especially after Bush senior failed to chase the Kuwaiti-invading Iraqis all the way to Baghdad, and the exploits of his henchmen (Chemical Ali in particular) in gassing the Kurds to the north?

Yes, I don't particularly agree with Bush's wars either (particularly his motivation for getting into them).  BUT would the refugee problem not have been much greater if he hadn't gone in and got Saddam and Osama?  Just watch Syria right now without intervention.

Do you recall in the 80's when we set up temporary visas to fly people from the Balkans over to Australia when the genocidal Serbian commanders went about their work.  Do you remember US jets under Clinton's command going in for a sortie and almost bringing the conflict to an end overnight?

History.  You gotta love it.


----------



## Julia

And let's not forget all the asylum seekers coming from Sri Lanka (Tamils), Iran and various other places.
And why not?   No need for any documentation, first class hospital and dental treatment.  Social security payments.  Free public housing.  Hell, why wouldn't they want to come!


----------



## numbercruncher

Julia said:


> We all know, yourself included, that the Howard government essentially stopped boat riding asylum seekers.
> The.





No they helped cause it - millions have been refugees looking for a Home since - and it continues to unfold. And now the its come home to roost both sides are playing politics - I would predict labor will buckle as they are more humanitarian to do whatever Liberals want if it slows the flow and reduces the risk of death.



> More than 800,000 people worldwide became refugees last year by moving across international borders, a record number, reported the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The total number of refugees around the globe, including those displaced within their own countries and those actively seeking asylum, dipped slightly to 42.5 million from 43.7 million in 2010. The decline was caused due to a large number of those displaced within their own countries returning to their homes.
> 
> *Afghanistan*, where the U.S. has been at war for more than a decade, continues to be the top producer of refugees with 2.7 million. The UNHCR estimates that one out of four refugees originate from Afghanistan. About 95% of them reside in neighboring Pakistan and Iran.
> 
> *Iraq*, where the United States pulled out the last of its troops at the end of last year after an eight-year war, produced the second largest refugee population with 1.4 million.


----------



## sails

numbercruncher said:


> Wrong.
> 
> the Liberal Government caused it all by invading countries at the request of George oil Bush that now supply the bulk of refugees and asylum seekers to the world market. You cant change the past no matter how many times you say labor caused this.





Labor abolished the Pacific Solution.  The Solution that clearly worked.  I understand the Pacific Solution was set up with bipartisan support with Labor in 2002.  

Why labor stupidly decided to politicise for the 2007 election by wanting to abolish it beggars belief when they had a landslide win due to work choices anyway.   They didn't need to make Boat Arrivals political.

What silly nonsense you keep posting.


----------



## DB008

If l were in their position, l would bypass, what, 6-10 countries to get here. You'd be stupid not to


----------



## numbercruncher

Julia said:


> And let's not forget all the asylum seekers coming from Sri Lanka (Tamils), Iran and various other places.
> And why not?   No need for any documentation, first class hospital and dental treatment.  Social security payments.  Free public housing.  Hell, why wouldn't they want to come!




And lets not forget about the 10s of thousands of unemployed Kiwis who fly here instead of catching a boat ?

60 thousand odd environmental refugees fled Christchurch for example probably half coming here and many getting help yet you all go on about 4k refugees from other countries who are fleeing persecution mostly.


----------



## sails

numbercruncher said:


> No they helped cause it - millions have been refugees looking for a Home since - and it continues to unfold. And now the its come home to roost both sides are playing politics - I would predict labor will buckle as they are more humanitarian to do whatever Liberals want if it slows the flow and reduces the risk of death.




NC - the Pacific Solution provided safety for genuine refugees while discouraging wealthy people (who may not even be refugees) paying smugglers to get here.

I would have thought you would have been more compassionate for the plight of genuine refugees who are being made to wait longer now that these wealthy ones are pushing in front of them and using up our resources.


----------



## sails

numbercruncher said:


> And lets not forget about the 10s of thousands of unemployed Kiwis who fly here instead of catching a boat ?




Are they expecting us to support them?


----------



## numbercruncher

Hi Sails -

Is there a rule that says you arnt aloud to be a wealthy refugee ? If you are fleeing for your life do you stop and tell the gun toting person , stop im rich you cant hurt me ?


----------



## sails

numbercruncher said:


> Hi Sails -
> 
> Is there a rule that says you arnt aloud to be a wealthy refugee ? If you are fleeing for your life do you stop and tell the gun toting person , stop im rich you cant hurt me ?





A genuine refugee I don't care if they are wealthy or not.  But money shouldn't be an issue.  What about the thousands languishing in refugee camps around the world waiting for placements???  These were definitely fleeing for their lives.

Captain Emad was not a refugee, but he is likely very wealthy from his people smuggling activities and he arrived by boat and was clearly untruthful in his claims.

There have been many articles and facts over these last couple of years that indicate many boat arrivals are not genuine refugees but clearly you do not bother to educate yourself.

Your posts  lack intelligence and have done nothing to change my mind - in fact your posts just make a bigger fool of labor and their policies, imo.


----------



## sptrawler

numbercruncher said:


> Hi Sails -
> 
> Is there a rule that says you arnt aloud to be a wealthy refugee ? If you are fleeing for your life do you stop and tell the gun toting person , stop im rich you cant hurt me ?




Hey numbercruncher, does your mum know you are still up playing on the computer?


----------



## Calliope

numbercruncher said:


> arnt aloud




"arnt aloud"  You are certainly hitting the slops tonight.


----------



## Julia

numbercruncher said:


> And lets not forget about the 10s of thousands of unemployed Kiwis who fly here instead of catching a boat ?



Not sure what boats would ply the waters between here and NZ.



> 60 thousand odd environmental refugees fled Christchurch for example probably half coming here and many getting help yet



What total rubbish.  Try to find anything to support that.  You'll be looking for a long time.
New Zealanders arriving in Australia are not eligible for social security benefits.

Maybe instead of continuing to post complete nonsense, spend a bit of time learning how to spell.


----------



## Glen48




----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Not sure what boats would ply the waters between here and NZ.
> 
> What total rubbish.  Try to find anything to support that.  You'll be looking for a long time.
> New Zealanders arriving in Australia are not eligible for social security benefits.
> 
> Maybe instead of continuing to post complete nonsense, spend a bit of time learning how to spell.




+1

That's what I thought - NZ arrivals have to support themselves.  Shame these wealthy boat people are not required to do the same and leave our available resources to help the REAL refugees.

"arnt aloud" - still laughing...  This from a guy who thinks he is an authority on everything...


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> "arnt aloud"  You are certainly hitting the slops tonight.




"ARNT ALOUD" that sounds kiddie txt chat.


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> "ARNT ALOUD" that sounds kiddie txt chat.




It just shows how young he is - a product of a school system which ignores spelling and grammar.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> +1
> 
> That's what I thought - NZ arrivals have to support themselves.  Shame these wealthy boat people are not required to do the same and leave our available resources to help the REAL refugees.
> 
> "arnt aloud" - still laughing...  This from a guy who thinks he is an authority on everything...




Sails, I cannot help repeating myself that the influx of boat people are muslim majority and  they are exploting Rudd/Gillard's relaxation of the Pacific solution. 

I stiil maintain it is a world wide plot to infiltrate the Western world in order to be the dominant religious group with intentions to rule the world. It is anticipated we will see a muslim USA President in the future.

It is already a major problem in Brittain and Europe.


----------



## sails

noco said:


> Sails, I cannot help repeating myself that the influx of boat people are muslim majority and  they are exploting Rudd/Gillard's relaxation of the Pacific solution.
> 
> I stiil maintain it is a world wide plot to infiltrate the Western world in order to be the dominant religious group with intentions to rule the world. It is anticipated we will see a muslim USA President in the future.
> 
> It is already a major problem in Brittain and Europe.




Yes, I find this a worry too.  Especially in our political system where minority parties can rule with balance of power.  We have seen it all too clearly and I worry about the Australia of the future in which my grandkids will live.

I would like to see a recall referrendum option - especially in the case of minority governments which would put more power back into the hands of the people when minority legislation is at risk of being passed against the will of the majority.  Carbon tax is one such example a recall option would have been useful.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I would like to see a recall referrendum option - especially in the case of minority governments which would put more power back into the hands of the people when minority legislation is at risk of being passed against the will of the majority.  Carbon tax is one such example a recall option would have been useful.



I  haven't heard of this, Sails.  How does it work?


----------



## sptrawler

What I keep coming back to is, if Abbott is so bad and the Gillard government has done so well. Why don't they go to an election to be able to govern in their own right.
Can IFocus, So-Cynical, numbercruncher and the rest answer that?
I mean Abbott can't get worse press than he allready does, the government are throwing money around like lunatics again, why not call an election?
It's weird it leaves you with the impression they are just trying to hang on as long as possible for their own ends. Sad


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> I  haven't heard of this, Sails.  How does it work?





I don't know a lot about it, but I heard about it when NSW were considering this legislation.  Here are some links and an excerpt on how it works in Wisconsin in the States:



> Wisconsin is one of 18 states that has a system of recall petitions. This system allows voters to sign a petition demanding the removal of their legislator or of the governor. If a high threshold is met, an election is held in that district. If a majority vote to remove the sitting representative, then the result of the new election kicks in.




http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/06/27/total-recall-wisconsin-nsw-targets-public-sector-wages/


and



> NSW Premier Barry O'Farrell has appointed an expert panel to examine the introduction of recall elections so voters can dump "corrupt, incompetent governments".




NSW panel to look at recall elections 


There are more links - I googled "nsw recall election" - more to be found there


----------



## sptrawler

It would appear the labor party are back to the future. They got rid of Rudd because he became a one pony show, now they have the same problem with Gillard. Just shows a government that hopes that the leader does the right thing, because the rest haven't got a clue. 

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/14058195/pass-asylum-seeker-bill-pm-tells-senators/

Have a read of Albanese in the last paragraph.LOL


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I don't know a lot about it, but I heard about it when NSW were considering this legislation.  Here are some links and an excerpt on how it works in Wisconsin in the States:
> http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/06/27/total-recall-wisconsin-nsw-targets-public-sector-wages/
> and
> NSW panel to look at recall elections
> There are more links - I googled "nsw recall election" - more to be found there



Thanks, sails.   It would be a pretty brave (or confident) government that would institute that.
Hardly like to happen here, more is the pity.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Have a read of Albanese in the last paragraph.LOL




sp

I think he is a bloody joke! (and I may say he is not alone).

NASA can send rockets into space, have space stations in orbit, build a battery that has little gadgets running around on planets.

I just wonder if in their planning, "say we will give it a go", it might work!!

I think federal politicians have lost their "job descriptions". I have said before, "someone has doctored the water 
in Canberra)
joe


----------



## dutchie

One would have to ask why the Government did not put to the vote in the Lower house their legislation which has been sitting on the books for six months or so and which is very similar to Oakeshott's Bill.

The reason they did not is that they knew that even though it would get through the Lower House it would not get through the Upper House because of the Greens.

So how despicable and hypocritical can this Government be to put forward Oakeshotts Bill yesterday knowing full well that despite it getting through the Lower House it will not get through the Upper House because of the Greens again.

What a waste of a lot of emotional speeches and the economic cost of our parliament sitting all day and debating something that would not change things one iota.

One must come to the conclusion that Gillard is interested in only one thing above all others - self preservation of power.

No doubt she will transfer the utter failure of yesterdays charade onto Tony Abbott (and won't say a thing about the Greens). But the Australian public is getting sick of this tactic and they are getting utterly sick of her - I know I am!


----------



## DB008

Just saw the Greens on ABC TV Live. Wow. Stay away from those guys. They basically want to open the gate to anyone who wants to come here.


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> Just saw the Greens on ABC TV Live. Wow. Stay away from those guys. They basically want to open the gate to anyone who wants to come here.




+1, +2, +3.
joea


----------



## drsmith

On Insiders today, Julia Gillard wouldn't confirm if Peter Slipper would be restored to a speakership if he was cleared by the court of sexual harassment.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> On Insiders today, Julia Gillard wouldn't confirm if Peter Slipper would be restored to a speakership if he was cleared by the court of sexual harassment.





It was an interesting show all round some good analysis by the panel.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> It was an interesting show all round some good analysis by the panel.





Must have been another minority labor love-in ...


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> It was an interesting show all round some good analysis by the panel.



Cheers IF.

Thanks for confirming my own views of today's show.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

dutchie said:


> One would have to ask why the Government did not put to the vote in the Lower house their legislation which has been sitting on the books for six months or so and which is very similar to Oakeshott's Bill.
> 
> The reason they did not is that they knew that even though it would get through the Lower House it would not get through the Upper House because of the Greens.
> 
> So how despicable and hypocritical can this Government be to put forward Oakeshotts Bill yesterday knowing full well that despite it getting through the Lower House it will not get through the Upper House because of the Greens again.
> 
> What a waste of a lot of emotional speeches and the economic cost of our parliament sitting all day and debating something that would not change things one iota.
> 
> One must come to the conclusion that Gillard is interested in only one thing above all others - self preservation of power.
> 
> No doubt she will transfer the utter failure of yesterdays charade onto Tony Abbott (and won't say a thing about the Greens). But the Australian public is getting sick of this tactic and they are getting utterly sick of her - I know I am!




Self preservation! Absoutely self-preservation!

If the Government of the day loses one of their own bills in the lower house, which they are supposed to control, that's a 'no confidence' vote that requires them to call an election.  That's the unwritten rule or 'convention' of the Westminster system.

The written rule relating to 'no confidence' is to do with the supply bills:

http://australianpolitics.com/conventions




> 2.The Westminster system requires that the ministry must command the support – “confidence” – of the lower house, the House of Representatives. This convention is reinforced by the requirement of Section 53 that all appropriation bills must originate in the House of Representatives. Without the ability to secure “supply” from the House of Representatives, a ministry is obliged to resign or call an election. This last occurred in 1941 when the House of Representatives voted to reduce the size of the government’s budget by one pound. The then Prime Minister, Arthur Fadden, resigned and the ALP’s John Curtin was commissioned to form a government.
> So the Australian Constitution has the written code about 'supply', but it is the underlying 'confidence' issue which attaches to every other failed bill which is the unwritten convention.




This unwritten 'convention' requires one to act honourably and resign of one's own volition. Or the Governor-General has to step in and use her reserve powers to sack you.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Must have been another minority labor love-in ...



Indeed it was.


----------



## dutchie

From now until the next election the Labor party will put forward *the only policy they have*:

Abbott Abbott Abbott


(this will overcome their previous committee/forum/talk feast policy)


----------



## sptrawler

It doesn't appear the public is swallowing the labor spin. 
Even good ol Kev and the worlds greatest treasurer are in trouble.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/all-qld-labor-mps-could-go-newspoll/story-e6freon6-1226413937281


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Indeed it was.



Speaking of Labor love-ins, Q&A tonight should set a new milestone. A carbon pricing love-in. Greg Combet and assorted worthies. But I'm sure Lenore will insist on balance. 

All they've done is set a price on carbon, just as the ATO has set a price on income, and the GST sets a price on consumption. Of course, none of these are taxes. More Coolaid please.


----------



## Calliope

Julia commiserating with Fairfax employees.



> "IT must be horrible to wake up every morning wondering if you will still have your job," she sympathised, pausing for near-perfect comic timing. "I can't imagine how that must feel."


----------



## sptrawler

It's a bit of a shame the Fairfax employees, can't adopt Julias attitude and tell the bosses to get stuffed, we are staying no matter what you say.
It has worked for Julia, the electorate tells her she is not wanted and to call an election. Julia says "What, I can't hear you " and get stuffed, by the way cop a new tax.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> ... Julia says "What, I can't hear you " and get stuffed, by the way cop a new tax.




And taxed for a problem that may not even exist...


----------



## So_Cynical

Page 189 of this crap and lets see what we have...posts by


dutchie
sptrawler
Calliope
sails
Logique

This must be similar to what its like when Alan Jones listens to his own show.


----------



## sails

So_Cynical said:


> Page 189 of this crap and lets see what we have...posts by
> 
> 
> dutchie
> sptrawler
> Calliope
> sails
> Logique
> 
> This must be similar to what its like when Alan Jones listens to his own show.




haha - crap to you but not to the majority of Aussies.  Have you check the polls lately...


----------



## dutchie

So_Cynical said:


> Page 189 of this crap and lets see what we have...posts by
> 
> 
> dutchie
> sptrawler
> Calliope
> sails
> Logique
> 
> This must be similar to what its like when Alan Jones listens to his own show.




There is an endless supply of crap from this government.


----------



## Logique

So_Cynical said:


> Page 189 of this crap and lets see what we have...posts by
> 
> 
> dutchie
> sptrawler
> Calliope
> sails
> Logique
> 
> This must be similar to what its like when Alan Jones listens to his own show.



We're clearly an influential group of posters. ALP primary vote hovering between 28-30%.


----------



## moXJO

This is another moment where I think maybe labor is finally getting it with the buttering up of relations at the annual Indonesia-Australia Leaders' Meeting in Darwin. Fostering relationships will make it a lot easier when it comes to slowing the people smugglers  trade and should have been pushed for months ago. There are Indonesian police on the ground with better solutions then the current crop of pollies.
There are a few areas where I have been impressed with labor in the last week


> TWO of Labor's most senior ministers have accused the current generation of union leaders of ignoring the national interest, saying exorbitant greenfield wage claims risk killing off a massive pipeline of resources investment.
> 
> Resources Minister Martin Ferguson and Regional Development Minister Simon Crean - both former ACTU leaders - urged unions to consider the nation's long-term productivity capacity, as they had done when negotiating the 1980s Prices and Incomes Accord.
> 
> Mr Ferguson said unions were forcing “unsustainable” deals that risked harming the nation's competitiveness.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/unions-risk-killing-mining-investment-warn-labor-ministers-martin-ferguson-and-simon-crean/story-fn59noo3-1226414514443
This was another comment that hit the mark.

 But here is the problem.....
 Labor is fixing problems they have created in the first place, and it's a long list. It's not just tweaking policy it's fixing major blunders that Labor has created. How many times can you shoot yourself in the foot, seriously


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> Page 189 of this crap and lets see what we have...posts by
> 
> 
> dutchie
> sptrawler
> Calliope
> sails
> Logique
> 
> This must be similar to what its like when Alan Jones listens to his own show.




Thankfully we always have yourself and IFocus, to keep the thread balanced. Actually without you two the thread would only be one page long.
There aren't any other labor supporters, so keep flying the flag.


----------



## IFocus

So_Cynical said:


> Page 189 of this crap and lets see what we have...posts by
> 
> 
> dutchie
> sptrawler
> Calliope
> sails
> Logique
> 
> This must be similar to what its like when Alan Jones listens to his own show.




Quote of the year I think


----------



## IFocus

BTW how is Cando going in QLD looking a little messy so early....................


----------



## Logique

IFocus said:


> Quote of the year I think



I'm starting to suspect that the 'Gillard Five' aren't going to be invited to the ALP Christmas Party this year.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> I'm starting to suspect that the 'Gillard Five' aren't going to be invited to the ALP Christmas Party this year.




LOL I suspect the Xmas party will be a quite affair at best..........


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> BTW how is Cando going in QLD looking a little messy so early....................



Heavens, how did you get that idea?   He's going extremely well.  Has already put in place much of what he promised.  As someone who voted for him, I couldn't be more pleased.  Such a relief after the wasteful ways of Bligh et al.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> LOL I suspect the Xmas party will be a quite affair at best..........



Labor will cancel Xmas if their celebrations of Gillard's second anniversary as PM are anything to go by.


----------



## moXJO

Another labor stuff up being fixed by state liberal 



> The construction companies knew governments and commercial property developers would pay the higher costs. However, faced with bad construction industry management and unions who knew how to exploit it, the Howard government stepped in and set up the Australia Building and Construction Commission.
> 
> The ABCC effectively put a rod behind weak managers by making many bad work site practices illegal. The ABCC was starting to bring down costs and would have achieved a reduction of at least 25 per cent. But then the Gillard government disemboweled the ABCC to make it completely ineffective. The situation was made worse by the disastrous Victorian desalination plant agreement, which took bad practices to a new level.
> In the absence of Canberra action, the Victorian government is taking the lead and duplicating many of the ABCC requirements on Victorian government projects.




http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/unions-mining-BHP-Rio-Tinto-Ferguson-Crean-ABCC-IR-pd20120705-VVS83?OpenDocument&src=sph


----------



## Glen48

Ya bring in a brand new tax and 3 days later find out you have been conned:


http://johnosullivan.wordpress.com/...plead-for-immunity-from-criminal-prosecution/


----------



## IFocus

Nice to see Cando is making it a priority protecting all you QLD's from gays .


----------



## sails

IFocus, not even Richo agrees with you...lol



> THE revelation in Newspoll, published in this newspaper on Monday, further demonstrated just how deep a hole Julia Gillard has dug for herself and her government.
> 
> To be polling 22 per cent in Queensland is the most graphic demonstration imaginable of the annihilation to come.




and



> First, every poll tells us that the carbon tax is a deeply unpopular tax.
> 
> While very few people understand it, there is a big majority out there who know enough to know they don't like it. Every price rise for months to come will be put down to the carbon tax. The debate has already been lost.
> 
> Indeed it was lost a long time ago. Even the concept of global warming itself is now a fading credo for Labor. The Government's failure to robustly defend the need for a carbon tax has given the electorate ample time and opportunity to listen to the climate-change deniers and sceptics.




Read full article from Graham Richardson:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...lemma-for-caucus/story-e6frgd0x-1226418301729


----------



## drsmith

Are some in Labor finally starting to see the price being paid for their choice of political bed partners ?



> While the NSW party secretary stopped short of calling for an immediate ban on preference deals with the Greens, he said putting the party last "must be put on the table. One step at a time".
> 
> "The Greens have come to take the Labor Party for granted," he said. "The truth is that they have put us in a position where sometimes anywhere else would be better with our preferences, and that includes even the Coalition."




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ut-consulting-pm/story-fn59niix-1226419439503



> Labor's frustration with the Greens' general ''high and mightiness'' spilled over publicly last week as the Senate torpedoed Rob Oakeshott's bill. Labor MPs took to social media to slam the Greens' uncompromising stance - particularly left-wingers, some of whom have reluctantly come to accept offshore processing as a legitimate part of the policy mix.
> 
> Many on Labor's Left are heartily sick of the Greens using asylum policy as a political wedge to split the progressive vote - a reverse populism tactic deployed with great effectiveness in every election since 2001.
> 
> The hard slog of minority government feels like an arranged marriage ebbing from sullenness into almost homicidal rancour: winter is profound discontent, teeth are gritted, frustrations high.
> 
> Labor's whip, Joel Fitzgibbon, penned an opinion piece articulating much of the roiling sentiment in Labor ranks. Fitzgibbon argued the Greens' current posture on the boats was not principle but realpolitik - shoring up their own position at Labor's expense, taking out insurance to hold on to the Senate balance of power.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/political-marriage-in-stormy-waters-20120706-21mbw.html


----------



## joea

Because of the talk about the faceless men, there has been a movement on sportsbet.
Malcolm Turnbull has drifted out slightly.
Gillard has firmed slightly, which suggests she will win the next challenge. same price as Krudd.
Election date. no change.
joe:disgust:


----------



## dutchie

Andrew Wilkie finds out Julia lied to him again. Slow learner.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...on-pokies-porkie/story-e6freuy9-1226419824419


He still won't do anything about it. Weak.


----------



## joea

Gillard is touring Qld.
Following the trip to the sunny north, there will be a new plan.
Watch it unfold.
joea


----------



## joea

dutchie said:


> Andrew Wilkie finds out Julia lied to him again. Slow learner.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...on-pokies-porkie/story-e6freuy9-1226419824419
> He still won't do anything about it. Weak.




In Wilkie electorate, there is a fair chance he has had a cup of tea with everyone.
So my view on that link, is he campaigning for the next election.?
He may get back in.
joea


----------



## Glen48

Penny Wong could not find 20M to top up the defence force retirement fund yet Bob Carr can find 5 m to give to Syria, at least when they pay it back we can collect some interest.

*Australia is giving a further $5 million in humanitarian relief aid to Syria.*Speaking after the Friends of Syria meeting in Paris on Friday (AEST), Foreign Minister Bob Carr said Syria's internal conflict had reached a "tipping point".More than 10,000 people have lost their lives and hundreds of thousands are in urgent need of aid."Australia has taken a lead in calling for a unified international response to end the bloodshed," Senator Carr said in a statement on Sunday."But we must also act to address the humanitarian crisis, with medical supplies, food and shelter."The additional $5 million in aid will bring Australia's total contribution to $16 million.The funds will support non-government organisations providing medical aid in Syria's conflict zones and will assist the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which helps the growing number of Syrians fleeing their country.​


----------



## joea

Well it think the problems in Canberra can be easily resolved.
Disguise 120kg. of laxette chocolate as after dinner mints.
Problem solved of all parties.
joea


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Well it think the problems in Canberra can be easily resolved.
> Disguise 120kg. of laxette chocolate as after dinner mints.
> Problem solved of all parties.
> joea




Joe. if they took those lazettes, there would be nothing left inside.

What we need is something to cleanse their brains.


----------



## damien275x

What I find most amusing is how many racist, redneck, Centerlink claiming rapidly breeding bogans hate Julia because of the Carbon Tax and being a ranga, so they going to vote in a man who is going to stomp on them and remove all of their entitlements!! LOL!! Just shows how stupid our population is, not that they deserve free money anyway. Icecream and Jelly when Julia gets the boot and these low socio losers are left to rot in the gutter. I'm sick of breeders getting free money. IF you can't afford your god damn child, do NOT have one. I am also sick of the "we're breeding future taxpayers" argument. Um, no. You'er breeding kids with a sense of entitlement who will further feed at the public trough and before long we will be Greece.


----------



## noco

One has to sense a divorce is in the making between Labor and the Greens.

Thank gawd they had no off springs from the marriage.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ke-on-the-greens/story-e6freono-1226420364102


----------



## sptrawler

Gillard ranting that Abbott is a coward, it is all starting to look like the 'panic' button has been pressed.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/abbotts-a-coward-says-gillard-20120708-21p25.html

It isn't up to the leader of the opposition, to dictate to a visiting head of state, what they will or won't do if and when they are in government.
Has Gillard lost the plot or what.IMO


----------



## MrBurns

damien275x said:


> when Julia gets the boot and these low socio losers are left to rot in the gutter.




They're rotting in the gutter now why do you think they hate her so much.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Gillard ranting that Abbott is a coward, it is all starting to look like the 'panic' button has been pressed.




+1


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Joe. if they took those lazettes, there would be nothing left inside.
> 
> What we need is something to cleanse their brains.



Some leave the impression that if they had a good hard one (or even a soft gooey one), their heads would cave in.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Gillard ranting that Abbott is a coward, it is all starting to look like the 'panic' button has been pressed.
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/abbotts-a-coward-says-gillard-20120708-21p25.html
> 
> It isn't up to the leader of the opposition, to dictate to a visiting head of state, what they will or won't do if and when they are in government.
> Has Gillard lost the plot or what.IMO



Labor pressed the panic button when Kevin Rudd was deposed as PM. The second time was when they called a snap poll in 2010 and the third was when they went into alliance with the Greens to form government.

They have since pressed it so many times that it's now beyond the dark side of the moon. 

Julia had best start practicing her best "PM Abbott". The above type of personal attack is not going to help Labor's cause.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

drsmith said:


> Labor pressed the panic button when Kevin Rudd was deposed as PM. The second time was when they called a snap poll in 2010 and the third was when they went into alliance with the Greens to form government.
> 
> They have since pressed it so many times that it's now beyond the dark side of the moon.
> 
> Julia had best start practicing her best "PM Abbott". The above type of personal attack is not going to help Labor's cause.




+1 Agree.

It's hard to work out what is panic and what is not anymore.  Labor don't have a strategy other than to undermine Abbott and make people live through the Carbon Tax.

So every time the tax comes up as an issue in the next 12 months, their response is going to sound a bit condescending like "Shut up and take your medicine - it's good for you."

There is someting really amateurish pop-psychology about all this.  If you want to change the way you're perceived and come across as humble, you don't say "Look at me, I'm humble now", because all you do is invite people to think how arrogant you were up to this point.

If your election campaign is going off the rails because other people are running it badly, you don't say "Look at me, I'm the real Joolya now" because you invite people to focus on the fake Julia.

If you are implementing a really unpopular tax, you don't shove it down people's throats and say you will live through it and find that it's not that much of a bitter pill after all.  

Like all the above examples, even though that's the result you want, the moment you broadcast it, you look like you're contriving the result and the end is anything BUT the result you wished for.

Did any of these Laborites have a real-life example to think this through.  If you had an unwilling partner not wanting sexual relations, do you say "Come-on, you'll really enjoy it at the end"?


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> Are some in Labor finally starting to see the price being paid for their choice of political bed partners ?




Just an election round the corner. Time to burn some bridges and ruin some friendships.


----------



## sptrawler

I like how Milne is saying the greens are having trouble getting labor to do as they are told.
She goes on to say they won't keep labor in office if the don't behave. LOL

Labor are starting to look like the minor party, which is exactly what the greens want.
I think Bob Brown is still showing how to slap labor into line.LOL

We could be in for a major ' cat' fight.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> I like how Milne is saying the greens are having trouble getting labor to do as they are told.
> She goes on to say they won't keep labor in office if the don't behave. LOL
> 
> Labor are starting to look like the minor party, which is exactly what the greens want.
> I think Bob Brown is still showing how to slap labor into line.LOL
> 
> We could be in for a major ' cat' fight.




Could this all be a set up to suck Tony Abbott in. I don't trust the Greens or the Labor Party.

Both these parties are evil when it comes to dirty tricks.

I hope Abbott lays low and does try to exploit it.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

noco said:


> Could this all be a set up to suck Tony Abbott in. I don't trust the Greens or the Labor Party.
> 
> Both these parties are evil when it comes to dirty tricks.
> 
> I hope Abbott lays low and does try to exploit it.




It's all so easy for a party that will never attain Government in it's own right, combined with the fact that their vote percentage doesn't change and in fact gets more entrenched with every statement they make.

Their only vested interest is to maintain the carbon tax through thick or thin and so they rationalise that the longer they hold out until the next election the more likely this will come to pass.

It's all so simple that you can afford to be completely illogical on the asylum-seeker issue.


----------



## MrBurns

Labor are finally doing something right, trashing the Greens on their way out, it's a wonderful sight.


----------



## bunyip

THE FINAL GILLARD DISGRACE: by Larry Pickering 

For $300 a week each, Gillard has given us the privilege of inviting asylum seekers into our homes. 
Has she and her Government gone completely mad?
The ABC proved only this week that we don’t have a clue who is entering our country illegally. We have no 
way to process these people. We have no way to know who they are because most are either carrying false 
passports or have been told to toss their IDs in the drink before they got here.

 This Captain Emad character was discovered to be here illegally, and in Canberra, blatantly smuggling people 
to our country on stink boats. The Government says the AFP have had him under surveillance for two years. 
They didnt even stop him fleeing back to Indonesia to continue making a fortune smuggling people back here, 
for Christ’s sake. 
Some boats have sunk with all on board and this germ has lied about it to anxious relatives to ensure he was 
paid in full! Now there's a REAL maggot for you!

 Now our Government Minister Clare says, “We had to let him go because we couldn’t make any charges stick”! 
What the hell is this clown talking about? Emad must have thought it was Xmas walking out of here like that. 
HE obviously knew he should be arrested! But not the AFP?

 The AFP could have placed a PACE Alert at all departure points within minutes of viewing that ABC program. 
They wouldn’t have even needed to arrest him to do that! We have already seen the mountain of evidence 
against this criminal! Why wasn’t he placed back in detention with all the others until he was processed properly 
and then jailed or deported? Didn’t he lie to and deceive authorities?
This most infamous of all illegal immigrants was given a special deal after only three months' detention and 
provided with free government housing so he could continue his trade! Who exactly is paying who here? 

Are they kidding? Illegal entry is not an offence?
If the Government is too lazy and the AFP too incompetent to arrest someone of this level of infamy then what 
damned message have we sent to Indonesia? 

 Malaysia is on the smuggling route and integral to the whole illegal operation. Stupid f***ing Gillard wants to defy our High Court ruling and send them all back there for felonious processing. 
(Sorry about that but I am shaking with rage typing this.)

 Now this galah of a woman is encouraging aged people and decent, unsuspecting families to take these 
unidentified people into their homes when the Government has just proved it doesn't have a f***ing clue who 
they are! It is a catastrophe waiting to happen! And it will!
These people are Islamic from a different environment and culture. Can Granny serve Hal Al food? 
Does she know about their disdain for women and young girls? Is she ready for their illegal immigrant mates 
to pay a visit? Their wailing prayers 5 times a day? Their hatred of the West? If Granny reads their Koran 
she will have a heart attack!

 You should have a few spare rooms in The Lodge Julia. How about you shoulder some of your own f***-up 
and show us how it’s done! Oh, I guess you don’t need the money, do you?... but poor old people and 
struggling families do. 

 Nauru could solve this national disgrace tomorrow but Gillard would need to retreat. She would rather 
Australia continues to pay dearly for this than openly display her original stupidity.
I would like to get my hands around her scrawny neck and shake some common sense into her. 

 This is lunacy beyond even what I thought Gillard was capable of.


----------



## noco

noco said:


> Could this all be a set up to suck Tony Abbott in. I don't trust the Greens or the Labor Party.
> 
> Both these parties are evil when it comes to dirty tricks.
> 
> I hope Abbott lays low and does try to exploit it.




I would say Tony Abbott is awake to Labor and the Greens.

But Tony Abbott said the stoush was a "phoney fight between the Greens and the Labor Party . . . as choreographed as world championship wrestling". "If it's fair dinkum, there's one way for the Prime Minister to demonstrate that and that is by tearing up her agreement with the Greens . . . If she's fair dinkum about tearing up the deal with the Greens, she's got to get rid of the carbon tax and the border protection policies that don't work as well," the Opposition Leader said.


----------



## Glen48

Why Wayne was late for work.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> I would say Tony Abbott is awake to Labor and the Greens.
> 
> But Tony Abbott said the stoush was a "phoney fight between the Greens and the Labor Party . . . as choreographed as world championship wrestling". "If it's fair dinkum, there's one way for the Prime Minister to demonstrate that and that is by tearing up her agreement with the Greens . . . If she's fair dinkum about tearing up the deal with the Greens, she's got to get rid of the carbon tax and the border protection policies that don't work as well," the Opposition Leader said.




Put simply and effectively. It's phony until Labor acts.

The Coalition should move to preference Labor ahead of the Greens before the next election. Exactly when though is a little more tricky. If Labor don't move first, then just before the election would be a good time for the Coalition.


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Could this all be a set up to suck Tony Abbott in. I don't trust the Greens or the Labor Party.




Well I think it is just shadow boxing.
Why....
1 To show the faceless men there is "another" side to Julia.
2 To move the voters attention away from the real issues.
3 To precipitate some of the blame to the Greens on some of the bad decisions she has 
made in the past.
This women is turning into a "chameleon" before the eyes of the Australian voter.
joea


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> Well I think it is just shadow boxing.



Most likely, although one wonders at what point it will be driven by panic from within.


----------



## noco

joea said:


> Well I think it is just shadow boxing.
> Why....
> 1 To show the faceless men there is "another" side to Julia.
> 2 To move the voters attention away from the real issues.
> 3 To precipitate some of the blame to the Greens on some of the bad decisions she has
> made in the past.
> This women is turning into a "chameleon" before the eyes of the Australian voter.
> joea




I agree with you 100%. She will try anything to stay in power. Until she tears up the agreement with Greens, I won't believe a thing she and her croonies do and say.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Most likely, although one wonders at what point it will be driven by panic from within.




Doc, I think panic has set in already.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Doc, I think panic has set in already.



I hope so.

Poor Greg Combet is splitting hairs between an alliance and an arrangement.



> Climate Change Minister Greg Combet has also argued that Labor did not have an ''alliance'' with the Greens, rather it had negotiated an "arrangement" with them and other independents in the wake of the 2010 election.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...s-labors-attack-on-greens-20120709-21qjy.html

The signing ceremony between Labor and the Greens after the last election looked to be rather formal to me. The seeds of the carbon tax were also sown by this point as well. A sign of things to come........


----------



## drsmith

In the present context, history can be interesting to review.

It's clear now that her citizens assembly on climate change was allready dead on the day it was announced.

Contrary to her word, a fragile political consensus was always good enough.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> I would say Tony Abbott is awake to Labor and the Greens.
> 
> But Tony Abbott said the stoush was a "phoney fight between the Greens and the Labor Party . . . as choreographed as world championship wrestling". "If it's fair dinkum, there's one way for the Prime Minister to demonstrate that and that is by tearing up her agreement with the Greens . . . If she's fair dinkum about tearing up the deal with the Greens, she's got to get rid of the carbon tax and the border protection policies that don't work as well," the Opposition Leader said.



Why on earth would she do that?  To do so would be to provoke an election which she knows she would lose.



drsmith said:


> Most likely, although one wonders at what point it will be driven by panic from within.



Already happening imo.   I don't think Ms Gillard has much to do with this present uprising.  It is as much a movement against her as it is against the Greens.   She is in a hell of a position, something she has brought entirely upon herself.


----------



## sptrawler

The greens can walk away from the agreement, they have already achieved more than they would have expected.
If they decide that labor are getting leverage off them, why not cross the floor with the coalition on a vote of no confidence.
Probably won't happen, but it depends how feral Swan and Co get, one just has to think back to the Rudd incident.
Milne could be a wild card, with Bob not in the picture, the good will may not be there.


----------



## StumpyPhantom

sptrawler said:


> The greens can walk away from the agreement, they have already achieved more than they would have expected.
> If they decide that labor are getting leverage off them, why not cross the floor with the coalition on a vote of no confidence.
> Probably won't happen, but it depends how feral Swan and Co get, one just has to think back to the Rudd incident.
> Milne could be a wild card, with Bob not in the picture, the good will may not be there.




Milne will certainly threaten Labor with all that she has.  She knows she only has to bare her teeth to maintain the perception that the Greens are a 'conviction' party but she is not about letting Abbott into Government, so he is right about this shadow boxing.

Labor has time to 'roadtest' this new posture, to see whether it wins them back votes from the Left.  When they find out the answer is no, they are likely to give up on preferencing the Greens last.

I think Dr Smith is right in that this is a chess game which the Coalition should be taking a back seat on.  The prize, if Abbott is the last mover, may well be control of the Senate.  

You may think Labor would not want to hand control of the Senate over to the Coalition in the 2013 election, but think again.  It may be better than being forced into a double dissolution election at which they get totally decimated for resisting the repeal of the carbon tax.

Chess game indeed!


----------



## sails

StumpyPhantom said:


> ...You may think Labor would not want to hand control of the Senate over to the Coalition in the 2013 election, but think again.  It may be better than being forced into a double dissolution election at which they get totally decimated for resisting the repeal of the carbon tax....





With the seeming all brawn and no brain mentality, I don't think they will see past obstructing Abbott at every possible turn even if it costs them  their careers...


----------



## drsmith

Labor's reached the point now where it can't even buy votes.



> A Newspoll conducted exclusively for The Australian at the weekend found the Coalition's primary support had risen two points to 48 per cent in the past fortnight as Labor's primary vote rose one percentage point to 31 per cent.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...no-help-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226422049813

The latest Essential Media poll too is little changed.


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> Labor's reached the point now where it can't even buy votes.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...no-help-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226422049813
> 
> The latest Essential Media poll too is little changed.




Still no movement with election date at sportsbet!
Confusion on who will substitute for Gillard.
The faceless men have a real problem. They need someone to replace Gillard and win 
the next election. ***THAT'S MISSION IMPOSSIBLE***
Oh to have a "bug" in the room full of faceless men. 
joea


----------



## joea

Obviously the Government is doing something right.!
Octomon is heading down under.

http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/lif...ce=FD&utm_medium=rainbow&utm_campaign=octomum

Should certainly help the USA economy recover.

joea:bananasmi


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> The greens can walk away from the agreement, they have already achieved more than they would have expected.
> If they decide that labor are getting leverage off them, why not cross the floor with the coalition on a vote of no confidence.
> Probably won't happen, but it depends how feral Swan and Co get, one just has to think back to the Rudd incident.
> Milne could be a wild card, with Bob not in the picture, the good will may not be there.




Well the Oct/Nov election may be on the cards.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/alpgreens-war-escalates-20120709-21ru6.html


----------



## dutchie

What a joke this Labor Government is.

All of a sudden they don't like the Greens.

Each member is coming up with "oh yeah the Greens are no good - I've always thought this"


----------



## Calliope

He wouldn't be doing this if Bob Brown was still there.


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> What a joke this Labor Government is.
> 
> All of a sudden they don't like the Greens.
> 
> Each member is coming up with "oh yeah the Greens are no good - I've always thought this"



They can't win on this.   For any positive reaction they might achieve by dissing the Greens, there will be the obvious question asked "well, why the hell are you in an alliance with them if you so despise them".

Essentially, Labor are just making themselves look even more confused with this attack on the Greens, amusing though it is.


----------



## MrBurns

Gillard is looking more rattled each day, Neil Mitchell on 3AW is calling for Simon Crean to take over, slimy simon they call him, a worthy Labor leader


----------



## noco

If the Governor General (Quiten Byrce) was worth her salt she should have put and end to all the crap that is going with the Austrlaian Government, dissolved parliament and called a double dissolution.

Unfortunately she is too biased to the left wing socialist Labor Party.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Already happening imo.   I don't think Ms Gillard has much to do with this present uprising.  It is as much a movement against her as it is against the Greens.   She is in a hell of a position, something she has brought entirely upon herself.



It does increasingly seem that Labor's current farting in bed is creating unplanned discomfort for both occupants as evidenced by the follwowing slapdown from Christine Milne,



> Senator Milne says the ALP is falling apart over asylum seekers and that has led powerbrokers from the left such as Doug Cameron to label the Greens "intransigent and immature".
> 
> "I think this is a crisis in the Labor Party, and it certainly undermines confidence in the prime minister," she told reporters on Tuesday.
> 
> "And those people on the left who now are coming out in such a vicious way, I think that's just reflecting the guilt and anger they feel that they have been forced in the Labor Party to roll over to what is an inhumane proposition in relation to asylum seekers.
> 
> "It's one that they have railed against for years under the Howard government.




It's interesting that she uses the term 'falling apart' given that Labor is the foundation that supports her power.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...cy-out-on-greens/story-fn59niix-1226422712308


----------



## sptrawler

I think Milne is the wild card, she doesn't have the agreement with labor, Bob did.
Bob got everything he wanted out off the deal and has retired happy.
Now it is up to Milne, to take the greens up one level on the political credibility ladder, by usirping labors position.
They will never have a better chance than at the moment, labor is on its back legs flailing ready to be trodden on.
Very sad state of affairs really, this labor government has sold a lemon and now is having trouble getting people to suck it.
It is a big problem when politicians put themselves before their electorate.


----------



## joea

There is a by-election coming up in Victoria.
The Greens will win the seat. No Liberal candidate.
That what the latest uprising is all about.

After all  Victoria is supposed to be Gillard's stronghold.
Federal polling is now affecting state politics, regardless of 
what Gillard or Swan says.
joea


----------



## joea

noco said:


> If the Governor General (Quiten Byrce) was worth her salt she should have put and end to all the crap that is going with the Austrlaian Government, dissolved parliament and called a double dissolution.
> 
> Unfortunately she is too biased to the left wing socialist Labor Party.




Noco
I think Byrce can only step in when there in a motion moved.
So if Abbott can get the some MP's from the minor parties to support the motion,
then Byrce can anoint the motion.
She will (or I hope she will) step in when that particular motion is moved.
The current problem Abbott can not come up with the goods, or support.
The current situation is a "catch 22" or "merry go round".
joea


----------



## moXJO

Labor wants to get it together soon or they risk losing even more seats to the greens. The fact that they couldnt see that the greens were after labors base voters shows how dumb this current lot are. Its getting painful to watch


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> Labor wants to get it together soon or they risk losing even more seats to the greens. The fact that they couldnt see that the greens were after labors base voters shows how dumb this current lot are. Its getting painful to watch




Yes the greens, through Bob Brown, have shown they are a more effective party than labor. Also they have highlighted how inept labor are at formulating effective policy.
The labor internal polling must be coming up with horrific results, to cause the current panic attack. They must be in utter turmoil, somethings got to give, probably when parliament resumes.


----------



## sptrawler

Well the W.A Labor Party know what the general population think of the Gillard Green/Labor Government.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/14203076/no-gillard-for-state-election-says-mcgowan/


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> They must be in utter turmoil, somethings got to give, probably when parliament resumes.



There's enough turmoil there to make Rob Oakshott worry about his bread and butter,



> He said despite this week's spat, he stood by his 2010 assessment that the ALP and the Greens had a "more functional" relationship than the Coalition and the Greens.



Err Rob,

The Coalition would not have needed the Greens had you and Tony Windsor supported them to form government. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...tt-tells-labor-and-greens-20120710-21tyq.html



joea said:


> I think Byrce can only step in when there in a motion moved.
> So if Abbott can get the some MP's from the minor parties to support the motion,
> then Byrce can anoint the motion.



It's becoming increasingly clear that the independents who have helped Labor form government would rather go down with the ship than change sides.


----------



## sptrawler

Yes doc, it's a shame they are so self centred, Oakeshott thought there was a better chance of him saving his ar$e with labour/green fragmented mess. If he had gone with the coalition, he would have had the say he deserved, sod all. What an absolute goose, how a useless pieces of ###### like him and Wilkie get voted in completely beats me.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Well the W.A Labor Party know what the general population think of the Gillard Green/Labor Government.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/14203076/no-gillard-for-state-election-says-mcgowan/




Public aknowledgement that he sees federal Labor as a negative.



> Mr McGowan said his stand on Federal Labor was more about holding Premier Colin Barnett to account.
> 
> “I just don’t want to see Mr Barnett get away with an election victory on the basis of it not being about his policies and his record,” he said.



.


----------



## sptrawler

Well I think McGowan will be toast due to Gillard, unfortunately Gillard won't go to an election. Therefore the electorate pays out at the state election, It's a no brainer.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Yes doc, it's a shame they are so self centred, Oakeshott thought there was a better chance of him saving his ar$e with labour/green fragmented mess. If he had gone with the coalition, he would have had the say he deserved, sod all. What an absolute goose, how a useless pieces of ###### like him and Wilkie get voted in completely beats me.




Oakeshott could still save his a*^se and at the same time make a hero of himself by moving a vote of no-cofidence. I reckon his electorate would put him on a pedestal. 
I believe he can't do it untill August. If there is an election before hand he will lose all of his parliamentary handouts.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Oakeshott could still save his a*^se and at the same time make a hero of himself by moving a vote of no-cofidence. I reckon his electorate would put him on a pedestal.
> I believe he can't do it untill August. If there is an election before hand he will lose all of his parliamentary handouts.




That pretty well sums up the character of the person. If it's accurate


----------



## drsmith

An interesting piece on the current spat between Labor and the Greens,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/the-end-of-the-affair/story-e6frg6z6-1226422915946



> A more immediate consequence of Labor preferencing against the Greens would be the impact it might have on the overall composition of the Senate. Unless Labor's political fortunes improve considerably before the next election, the likelihood is that Labor preferencing against the Greens would deliver the conservatives a No 4 Senate spot in some states.
> 
> Were that to happen Abbott's conservatives might control the Senate in their own right. That would allow him to repeal the carbon and mining taxes without a fight.
> 
> Perhaps some within the Labor Party would not be too upset were that to happen, avoiding a situation whereby they would have to stand by their pre-election rhetoric that they would continue to block Abbott's repeal efforts in opposition, or force a double dissolution on the carbon tax soon after the next election.




Another longer term consideration for Labor (post Gillard) might be that a Coalition with control of both houses may be more drunk with power than would otherwise be the case. This could be a faster path to Labor's redemption with the electorate. 

History offers the final term of the Howard government as the prime example.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> , how a useless pieces of ###### like him and Wilkie get voted in completely beats me.



They get voted in because the electorate is utterly fed up with both major parties.
The people who voted in Oakeshott and Windsor would have had no conception of how their chosen candidate would sell them out.

Julia Gillard is busily trying to recoup some votes in Queensland with the awarding of the next G20 meeting to Brisbane.  Good to see Can-do Newman has ensured the federal government will be paying for most of it.
If Ms Gillard thinks this bit of largesse to a State which utterly detests her will change her fortunes, she is seriously underestimating Queenslanders.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> They get voted in because the electorate is utterly fed up with both major parties.
> The people who voted in Oakeshott and Windsor would have had no conception of how their chosen candidate would sell them out.
> 
> Julia Gillard is busily trying to recoup some votes in Queensland with the awarding of the next G20 meeting to Brisbane.  Good to see Can-do Newman has ensured the federal government will be paying for most of it.
> If Ms Gillard thinks this bit of largesse to a State which utterly detests her will change her fortunes, she is seriously underestimating Queenslanders.




I am sure the longer labor holds off calling an election the more the electorate are turning against them.
Initially delaying the election as long as possible, I thought may work in labors favour. However when you hear Mark McGowan, you have to think they have done their homework. When you add that to worsening polls, unless there is some mircle going to happen over christmas, labor will be lucky to hold a seat.
This is becoming a perfect example of where the person is bigger than the party, funny though that's why they got rid of Kev.
The more she 'slaps' them, the more they look like fools, the more Tony looks normal.

Even worse for Oakeshott, Wilkie and the boys, they follow along gormlessly behind like puppies. Sad just very sad, why haven't they said at some time, lets take this to the electorate.


----------



## noco

Gillard gave Brisbane the nod for the G20 summit because Sydney airport could not handle the extra traffic.

So, did she do her homework or was it a political decision to prop up her seats in Queensland? Now she has the BLUES off side.

Looks like another typical Labor stuff up on the way.

Check out the link in todays Courier Mail. Very timely indeed.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And to adding to the hysteria, Brisbane has 9000 hotel beds available of which 7000 will be required for the G20 summit.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ff-access-jammed/story-fndo1yus-1226423853587

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ock-full-for-g20/story-fndo1yus-1226423847980


----------



## joea

noco said:


> So, did she do her homework or was it a political decision to prop up her seats in Queensland? Now she has the BLUES off side.




Noco 
That's not hard to do, all you have to do is beat them in football

I think she is trying to soften up Campbell. We all know that will not happen.
In relation to the link..The Cairn Airport was up graded a couple of years back and it 
was a tedious job to watch.

I cannot link todays joke in Australian, but I will word it.

Big suggestion box on wall with words, "Labor Values Suggestion Box".
Swan standing on floor saying, "Nothing Yet".
Gillard standing on chair looking into box saying...
'Bloody Greens probably nicked them again"'   
joea


----------



## noco

Gillard is in Townsville today saying how much she loves our city.

Gawd, why didn't she have the G20 in Townsville, the army at Lavarack barracks has heaps of tents to house 7000 and it could have all have been set up in the show grounds. We might even get the overflow from Biissie and FIFO each day.


----------



## Logique

I've really turned around on the carbon tax, sorry _price_, now that I've seen the compensation being paid, to _somebody else_.  A great strategy by the Govt.


----------



## Calliope

The G20 is Gillard's way to punish Brisbane for nurturing Rudd. Melbourne's Mayor is thankful Melbourne didn't get the nod.



> Cr Doyle said he had spoken with former Toronto mayor David Miller, who told him his city needed to employ an additional 20,000 police and security personnel when the Canadian city hosted the G20 in 2010.
> “He said to me: 'For God's sake don't get this conference',” Cr Doyle said.
> “He said, for him, it was a nightmare for Toronto. They made over 1000 arrests, they had this group called Black Bloc, who were professional protesters who flew in from around the world to disrupt this conference.
> “They had four or six police cars set on fire.
> "David said: 'This is the conference you do not want'.



”

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/protesters-will-be-waiting-for-g20-20120711-


----------



## joea

WHY I'M DEPRESSED
        Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel ,
"Pick up your shovels, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to
the Promised Land."
        Whitlam said "Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up
a Camel, this is the Promised Land."
        Today, Gillard has stolen your shovel, taxed your asses, put camels
in plain packaging, and mortgaged the Promised Land!
        I was so depressed last night thinking about Health Care Plans, the
economy, the wars, lost jobs, savings, Social Security, & retirement funds,
so I called a Suicide Hotline. I had to press 1 for English, & I was
connected to a call center in Pakistan . I told them I was suicidal.
        They got excited and asked if I could drive a truck

joea


----------



## Boggo

And 2067 years ago...

_"The  budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should  be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign  lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.
People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."_
* -   Cicero    - 55 BC*


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> The G20 is Gillard's way to punish Brisbane for nurturing Rudd. Melbourne's Mayor is thankful Melbourne didn't get the nod.
> 
> ”
> 
> Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/protesters-will-be-waiting-for-g20-20120711-





Thought the same ....almost.......why would you want the G20 its just a major drama from start to finish.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Thought the same ....almost.......why would you want the G20 its just a major drama from start to finish.





And Gillard wants to spend another 350 million on this?  Don't we have enough debt yet?  It seems she has no restraints on spending.


----------



## Logique

Only a matter of time.
http://www.smh.com.au/drive/motor-news/town-introduces-female-parking-spots-20120712-21xb1.html


----------



## Miss Hale

Boggo said:


> And 2067 years ago...
> 
> _"The  budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should  be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign  lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.
> People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."_
> * -   Cicero    - 55 BC*





Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose....


----------



## IFocus

Taxing the truth: why we must not let Abbott's dogmas lie





> Opposition Leader Tony Abbott constantly accuses the Prime Minister of 'lying' when she made a commitment before the last election not to introduce a tax on carbon. But who's the liar here?







> A lie is when you say something is true when you know it is not true. This is quite different from a commitment, which is a promise to do something in the future.
> 
> We can be absolutely certain that Abbott, as a former student in a Catholic seminary, knows the substantive and moral difference between a lie and a commitment.
> 
> So when Abbott says the Prime Minister told a lie, he is saying something is true when he knows it is not true, so Abbott is telling a lie. Whereas the most the Prime Minister can be truthfully accused of is breaking a pre-election commitment, like John Howard with the GST and ''core and non-core promises'', or Ted Baillieu with Victorian teachers' salaries.






> When I was at secondary school, my English class studied a collection of essays, one of which analysed the methods of Nazi propaganda in the 1930s.
> 
> There were, I recall, three components of this: an element of truth; gross exaggeration; and constant repetition.
> 
> I have been starkly reminded of this trilogy by the habitual behaviour of Abbott and his opposition colleagues during the past 15 months.
> 
> The elements of truth the opposition is exploiting are, first, that the Prime Minister did make an (implicitly qualified) commitment before the last election not to introduce a tax on carbon; and second, that she has indeed had legislation passed putting a price on carbon as an interim measure, before a future carbon-trading scheme is introduced a few years down the track.
> 
> Abbott's exaggerations of these basic facts are distortions of the real situation.
> 
> As we have seen, and as he well knows, a broken commitment is not a ''lie''.
> 
> Ironically, Abbott calling what Australia's Prime Minister said a ''lie'' may itself be an example of what Adolf Hitler called a ''big lie'', that is a lie so ''colossal'' it has a ''certain force of credibility'' because the populace ''would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously'' (Mein Kampf, volume I, chapter X).





Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-dogmas-lie-20120706-21mlz.html#ixzz20TyVIgrP


----------



## Knobby22

As you quoted IFocus.

_When I was at secondary school, my English class studied a collection of essays, one of which analysed the methods of Nazi propaganda in the 1930s.

There were, I recall, three components of this: an element of truth; gross exaggeration; and constant repetition._

That is what I dislkie about Abbott and contemporary politics. 
The propaganda combined with the willingness of certain members of the press to spread it unquestioningly. 

Propaganda is propaganda no matter how you look at it. And people that fall for propaganda are lacking a discerning mind and are easily led.


----------



## Glen48

The experts in Europe have decide you can but dozen eggs any more now called 674 Grams.



It is the embodiment of Ayn Rand's famous quote:​
_[FONT=verdana, geneva]"When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion - when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors - when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you - when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty become[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva] 
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva][/FONT]__[FONT=verdana, geneva]Every one has the right to be stupid but some are abusing the privilege. 
 Coming soon to a store near you no doubt.[/FONT]_


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Taxing the truth: why we must not let Abbott's dogmas lie
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-dogmas-lie-20120706-21mlz.html#ixzz20TyVIgrP




Is it any different to the constant chorus, that Tony is to blame for everything. 
I don't think either side of politics can hold themselves up as paragons of virtue.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Taxing the truth: why we must not let Abbott's dogmas lie
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-dogmas-lie-20120706-21mlz.html#ixzz20TyVIgrP



If he's one of Labor's political advisors, it would explain why they're doing so well in the polls.


----------



## sails

IFocus - then how do you explain Gillard on the eve of the 2010 election when she gave an interview with the Australian stating this:



> In an election-eve interview with The Australian, the Prime Minister revealed she would view victory tomorrow as a mandate for a carbon price, provided the community was ready for this step.
> 
> "I don't rule out the possibility of legislating a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, a market-based mechanism," she said of the next parliament. "I rule out a carbon tax."




How could she possibly view victory as a mandate for a carbon price when she had run ads repeatedly saying she wouldn't have a carbon tax?  Carbon tax or carbon price is the same thing.  And Swan vigorously denied the coalition's hysterical allegations that they would bring in a carbon tax.  It sounds like she intended to deceive the electorate with her TV ads and only told the truth to a couple of journalists when the media blackout was on just hours before the election.

If that's not a deliberate attempt at deception, I don't know what is. IFocus - you are pushing mud uphill to try and make Abbott look worse than Gillard's apparent lack of respect for Aussie voters.

Oh, and what happened to her promised citizen's assembly?  I thought that was to precede the carbon tax.  Does Gillard tell the truth about anything, IF?


full article from News.com: Julia Gillard: My carbon price promise


----------



## sptrawler

Well Julia looks a lot younger in the clip, than she looks now. Obviously two years in politics is a long time.


----------



## Julia

Knobby22 said:


> As you quoted IFocus.
> 
> _When I was at secondary school, my English class studied a collection of essays, one of which analysed the methods of Nazi propaganda in the 1930s._



_
To compare the rhetoric/propaganda of any of our current Australian political parties to the Nazis is to do a vast disservice to all those who so hideously suffered under the Nazis.
So inappropriate.



			That is what I dislkie about Abbott and contemporary politics. 
The propaganda combined with the willingness of certain members of the press to spread it unquestioningly. 

Propaganda is propaganda no matter how you look at it. And people that fall for propaganda are lacking a discerning mind and are easily led.
		
Click to expand...


It is dealt out to these non-discerning minds by all sides, very much including the Greens as well as the two major parties.  To single out Mr Abbott as especially guilty is less than discerning in itself.




sptrawler said:



			Is it any different to the constant chorus, that Tony is to blame for everything. 
I don't think either side of politics can hold themselves up as paragons of virtue.
		
Click to expand...


Exactly._


----------



## sptrawler

Knobby22 said:


> As you quoted IFocus.
> 
> _When I was at secondary school, my English class studied a collection of essays, one of which analysed the methods of Nazi propaganda in the 1930s.
> 
> There were, I recall, three components of this: an element of truth; gross exaggeration; and constant repetition._
> 
> That is what I dislkie about Abbott and contemporary politics.
> The propaganda combined with the willingness of certain members of the press to spread it unquestioningly.
> 
> Propaganda is propaganda no matter how you look at it. And people that fall for propaganda are lacking a discerning mind and are easily led.




It's nice to see you groping to find something that supports your unfounded faith in a morally currupt group of self serving dicks.
Don't forget they have raised the pension age. (While saying we have a bling economy, envy of the world)
Reduced what people can put into supperannuation. (So they can't retire early)
*Yet their untaxed pensions have increased considerably, due to exorbitant pay increases.*
Have brought in a broad based consumption tax (tax on electricity) 
The pink batt scheme highlighted their stupidity. Households who were energy conscious put insulation in, then this government used their taxes to put it in everyone else roof for free. How dumb is that!!!!
This will become a rant if I keep going.


----------



## drsmith

Labor should have added glyphosate to the water long ago.

Now they need a Stihl in addition to the glyphosate.


----------



## sails

Another green tax on the cards?  Seems like the greens can only think in tax and spend as long as it's the working families who pay.

Proposed recycling levy to add $300 to average family's shopping bill


----------



## Julia

Don't most councils already have recycling facilities in place?
Here we have a bin for stuff to be recycled and another for general rubbish.  I thought it was widely used.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Don't most councils already have recycling facilities in place?
> Here we have a bin for stuff to be recycled and another for general rubbish.  I thought it was widely used.




I agree - it seems just another excuse for a tax.  We are already paying for recycling in our rates.  Probably another thing they are hoping Aussies are too stupid to notice.

Another tax much like our life giving co2 which is not a pollutant (or at least it never was considered a pollutant until greedy politicians decided to make it a villain for tax purposes).


----------



## Knobby22

sptrawler said:


> It's nice to see you groping to find something that supports your unfounded faith in a morally currupt group of self serving dicks.
> Don't forget they have raised the pension age. (While saying we have a bling economy, envy of the world)
> Reduced what people can put into supperannuation. (So they can't retire early)
> *Yet their untaxed pensions have increased considerably, due to exorbitant pay increases.*
> Have brought in a broad based consumption tax (tax on electricity)
> The pink batt scheme highlighted their stupidity. Households who were energy conscious put insulation in, then this government used their taxes to put it in everyone else roof for free. How dumb is that!!!!
> This will become a rant if I keep going.




You've completely missed the point. 

I will be voting Liberal next election so the above information is irrelevant.


----------



## DB008

Sorry, don't know if this has been posted.


----------



## drsmith

One very small step in the right direction for Labor.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-alp-left-leader/story-fn59niix-1226426028959


----------



## sails

I was looking for the video clip of Gillard supporting turning boats back in 2002 (saw it on the Bolt Report this morning!) and stumbled across this picture - says it all really - perhaps I should have posted it in the climate thread...:




_Moving forward - this picture from photographer Andrew Meares on the Gillard campaign in Adelaide._

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-elect...-for-mantle-of--normality-20100810-11uhe.html


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard reckons she's in for the long fight. She's right in the sence that is feels lik eher government has been in for an agonising eternity.

The fight however is over. It's now just a question of whether her party cleans the corpse from the canvas before the electorate gets its chance


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard reckons she's in for the long fight. She's right in the sence that is feels lik eher government has been in for an agonising eternity.
> 
> The fight however is over. It's now just a question of whether her party cleans the corpse from the canvas before the electorate gets its chance




Well I believe within 24 hrs of her speech, millions of Australian voters, mouthed the words, "my bloody oath you are going to have a fight". You are going to be "shown the highway"!!!
If science could have harnessed all that "hot air" from the ALP conference we probably could have shut down at least one boiler generating electricity.

Another thing! These political conferences should be reduced to help the environment.

joea


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard reckons she's in for the long fight. She's right in the sence that is feels lik eher government has been in for an agonising eternity.
> 
> The fight however is over. It's now just a question of whether her party cleans the corpse from the canvas before the electorate gets its chance



Doc, I think after the latest  poll by Essential Report, I would say Gillard is past the bandaid stage and is about to be hospitalised.



http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Doc, I think after the latest  poll by Essential Report, I would say Gillard is past the bandaid stage and is about to be hospitalised.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport



The only part of a hospital that would be of any use to her political life now is a slab in cold storage.

When all is said and done, no autopsy will be required. The primary cause of death (amongst many other things) will be poisoning by carbon tax.

Labor will be looking to bury her in the middle of the darkest of nights, in order to minimise public attention. If Kevin Rudd is resurected after being put down twice, the old knife wound in the back is bad enough. The real challenge however will be to hide the shot-gun wounds between the eyes of his zombified corpse.

The two polls on the Greens were the most interesting and inparticular, where labor voters stand. This should not be lost on strategists within the party.


----------



## Julia

Thanks for link to the Essential Report, noco.  We don't hear much about them and probably less weight is given to their research than to Newspoll and Galaxy.

It's interesting that, in spite of the substantial lead for the Coalition over Labor, the preferred Prime Minister is still so close, with 37% to Julia Gillard and 38% to Tony Abbott.
Shows that the electorate is still not really warming to Mr Abbott, despite how much they detest the government.

I'd like to see a question in the poll which goes something like:  "If you dislike the government, and also dislike Mr Abbott, for whom will you vote?"


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> I'd like to see a question in the poll which goes something like:  "If you dislike the government, and also dislike Mr Abbott, for whom will you vote?"



A choice between the sex party and the following is quiet obvious I would have thought.


----------



## sptrawler

Can't follow that one Doc.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Can't follow that one Doc.



Eliminate the Coalition and Labor and what do you have ?

It was a comment in jest that I'd vote for the sex party before I'd vote for the Greens.


----------



## bunyip

Gonorrhea Lectim - New Deadly Disease. 

One should be thinking about this seriously.  The Center for Disease Control has issued a warning about a new virulent strain of this old disease.   

The disease is called "Gonorrhea Lectim".  It's pronounced “Gonna re-elect em" and it is a terrible and deadly ailment.   

The disease is contracted through dangerous and high risk behaviour involving putting your cranium up your rectum.  Many victims contracted it in 2007. But now most people, after having been infected for the past few years, are starting to realize how destructive this sickness is.   

It's sad because Gonorrhea Lectim is easily cured with a new drug just coming on the market called Votemout.  Most people in NSW and more recently in Queensland took the first dose but the second dose is due late next year.


----------



## drsmith

bunyip said:


> It's sad because Gonorrhea Lectim is easily cured with a new drug just coming on the market called Votemout.  Most people in NSW and more recently in Queensland took the first dose but the second dose is due late next year.



The government will discover just how potent Votemout Forte really is.


----------



## DB008

Got this in my inbox




> FW: PRECISION PSYCHOLOGY
> 
> If you start with a cage containing five monkeys and inside the cage, hang a banana on a string from the top and then you place a set of stairs under the banana, before long a monkey will go to the stairs and climb toward the banana.
> 
> As soon as he touches the stairs, you spray all the other monkeys with cold water.
> 
> After a while another monkey makes an attempt with same result ... all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.
> 
> Now, put the cold water away.
> 
> Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one.
> 
> The new monkey sees the banana and attempts to climb the stairs. To his shock, all of the other monkeys beat the crap out of him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs he will be assaulted.
> 
> Next, remove another of the original five monkeys, replacing it with a new one.
> 
> The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment...... with enthusiasm.
> 
> Then, replace a third original monkey with a new one, followed by the fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs he is attacked.
> 
> Now, the monkeys that are beating him up have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs. Neither do they know why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.
> 
> Finally, having replaced all of the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys will have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, not one of the monkeys will try to climb the stairway for the banana.
> 
> Why, you ask? Because in their minds...that is the way it has always been!
> 
> This, my friends, is how the Labour Party operates... and this is why, from time to time:
> 
> ALL of the monkeys need to be REPLACED AT THE SAME TIME.


----------



## bunyip

Try this test and find out what movie is your favourite.
This amazing maths quiz can likely predict which one of the 18 movies you would enjoy the most.
No looking at the movie list until you've done the quiz!
 It really works! .......for MOST of us anyway!

 Movie Quiz:
 1. Pick a number from 1-9.
 2. Multiply by 3.
 3. Add 3.
 4. Multiply by 3 again.
 5. Now add the two digits of your answer together to find
 your predicted favourite movie in the list of 18 movies below:






Movie List:

 1. Gone With the Wind
 2. E.T.
 3. Blazing Saddles
 4. Star Wars
 5. Forrest Gump
 6. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
 7. Jaws
 8. Grease
 9. The Gillard Farewell Speech of 2013
 10. Casablanca
 11. Jurassic Park
 12. Shrek
 13. Pirates of the Caribbean
 14. Titanic
 15. Raiders of the Lost Ark
 16. Home Alone
 17. Mrs. Doubtfire


Now, ain't that something?


----------



## noco

bunyip said:


> Try this test and find out what movie is your favourite.
> This amazing maths quiz can likely predict which one of the 18 movies you would enjoy the most.
> No looking at the movie list until you've done the quiz!
> It really works! .......for MOST of us anyway!
> 
> Movie Quiz:
> 1. Pick a number from 1-9.
> 2. Multiply by 3.
> 3. Add 3.
> 4. Multiply by 3 again.
> 5. Now add the two digits of your answer together to find
> your predicted favourite movie in the list of 18 movies below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Movie List:
> 
> 1. Gone With the Wind
> 2. E.T.
> 3. Blazing Saddles
> 4. Star Wars
> 5. Forrest Gump
> 6. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
> 7. Jaws
> 8. Grease
> 9. The Gillard Farewell Speech of 2013
> 10. Casablanca
> 11. Jurassic Park
> 12. Shrek
> 13. Pirates of the Caribbean
> 14. Titanic
> 15. Raiders of the Lost Ark
> 16. Home Alone
> 17. Mrs. Doubtfire
> 
> 
> Now, ain't that something?




Good one bunyip. Just love it.


----------



## dutchie

bunyip said:


> Try this test and find out what movie is your favourite.
> This amazing maths quiz can likely predict which one of the 18 movies you would enjoy the most.
> No looking at the movie list until you've done the quiz!
> It really works! .......for MOST of us anyway!
> 
> Movie Quiz:
> 1. Pick a number from 1-9.
> 2. Multiply by 3.
> 3. Add 3.
> 4. Multiply by 3 again.
> 5. Now add the two digits of your answer together to find
> your predicted favourite movie in the list of 18 movies below:
> 
> 
> Movie List:
> 
> 1. Gone With the Wind
> 2. E.T.
> 3. Blazing Saddles
> 4. Star Wars
> 5. Forrest Gump
> 6. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
> 7. Jaws
> 8. Grease
> 9. The Gillard Farewell Speech of 2013
> 10. Casablanca
> 11. Jurassic Park
> 12. Shrek
> 13. Pirates of the Caribbean
> 14. Titanic
> 15. Raiders of the Lost Ark
> 16. Home Alone
> 17. Mrs. Doubtfire
> 
> 
> Now, ain't that something?




How did it know that would be my favourite movie (and I have not even seen it yet!)??


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> Try this test and find out what movie is your favourite.



OK, so it's some clever bit of maths to ensure that whatever initial number you choose, you're going to come out at Gillard's Resignation.  Cute.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> OK, so it's some clever bit of maths to ensure that whatever initial number you choose, you're going to come out at Gillard's Resignation.  Cute.




Only is you have her placed 9.:dimbulb:


----------



## joea

Hot off the press.
Swan at $2 to hold his seat with LNP at $1.72.
Rudd at $1.40 with LNP at $2.70.
Stephen Smith at $1.75 with LNP at $1.95.
Craig Thompson at $9, while Karen McNamara at $1.04 to oust him.

Rob is going to be at long odds, while Wilkie should regain his seat.

Its all happening!!!!! I wonder why. On sportsbet no change in money for election
date and leaders.

joea


----------



## MrBurns

Is there anything these people can't bugger up ?



> Pokies revenue rises as carbon compo arrives
> 
> The first round of carbon tax compensation is coming under scrutiny as new data shows a spike in poker machine revenue.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-18/pokies-revenue-spikes-amid-carbon-tax-compo/4138686


----------



## drsmith

bunyip said:


> Try this test and find out what movie is your favourite.




A late 2012 release in conjunction with the release of _Kev Psychopath The Second_ is perhaps not out of the question.



joea said:


> Hot off the press.
> Craig Thompson at $9, while Karen McNamara at $1.04 to oust him.




If that doesn't explain it to the Labor leadership, only the electorate can.



MrBurns said:


> Is there anything these people can't bugger up ?




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-18/pokies-revenue-spikes-amid-carbon-tax-compo/4138686



> The figures have prompted independent senator Nick Xenophon to question whether there are better mechanisms to compensate people.




Of course there are. The cash payments were about trying to achieve a bounce in the polls. What more has to happen before Mr Principals chokes on his deal with the devil ?


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Is there anything these people can't bugger up ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-18/pokies-revenue-spikes-amid-carbon-tax-compo/4138686




No they have  100% success rate!!! Gillard is now trying for 110%.

The best I read was "Gillard disagrees with business on IR reform".
I rolled around on the floor laughing that much , I got carpet burn.

joea:bananasmi


----------



## joea

hopefully this will open.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...bs-board-snubbed/story-fn59noo3-1226428950921

joea


----------



## sptrawler

Another day of Julia making it all about Abbott. She really is sounding like a loser.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...alias-credentials-gillard-20120718-229zy.html

I suppose it is due to the fact, she doesn't have anything, that can be held up as an achievement. 
Must say, she is looking tired.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Another day of Julia making it all about Abbott. She really is sounding like a loser.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...alias-credentials-gillard-20120718-229zy.html
> 
> I suppose it is due to the fact, she doesn't have anything, that can be held up as an achievement.
> Must say, she is looking tired.




Death throes of a fractured administration, they'll replace her soon to try to get some votes at least........


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Death throes of a fractured administration, they'll replace her soon to try to get some votes at least........



I'm no supporter of Ms Gillard, but I think it's facile of the rest of the government to place the entire blame for their miserable showing in the polls at her feet.
They all need to take responsibility, Wayne Swan first.

If they think for a moment all will be fine if they bring back Rudd, they're totally deluded imo.
Just imagine the fodder for the opposition with all the clips of his colleagues saying he was dysfunctional, the government was in chaos etc, as well as opening themselves up to ridicule for assassinating leaders with such regularity.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> I'm no supporter of Ms Gillard, but I think it's facile of the rest of the government to place the entire blame for their miserable showing in the polls at her feet.
> They all need to take responsibility, Wayne Swan first.
> 
> If they think for a moment all will be fine if they bring back Rudd, they're totally deluded imo.
> Just imagine the fodder for the opposition with all the clips of his colleagues saying he was dysfunctional, the government was in chaos etc, as well as opening themselves up to ridicule for assassinating leaders with such regularity.




They'll have to think long and hard about who to replace her with and who would want it ? 
If they put Rudd in at the last minute it might help them in Qld but ......really it's too late now, nothing they can do will help.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I'm no supporter of Ms Gillard, but I think it's facile of the rest of the government to place the entire blame for their miserable showing in the polls at her feet.
> They all need to take responsibility, Wayne Swan first.




I agree with you Julia, however the rest of the party including Swan seem to be taking one step back. They are begining to look conspicuous by their absence, unlike a few months back.
At the moment they look like they are setting up Julia to be the fall guy. IMO


----------



## joea

Well I think the biggest dilemma the Labor party faces is, which MP as a potential leader will win his or her  seat at the next election.

If they choose a leader, and that leader looses his seat, and as well they lose the election.
Well there will be chaos. They will have to choose a leader on the run.

Now the next problem they have, is if they choose a new leader; will the voters choose to vote actively
against him or her to take out their discontent with Labor.

Basically the new leader(if there is one), will have to be a "shoo in", to win their seat.
It is either that or "live with Gillard".
That is Labor's dilemma, and that is why they will be watching the individual polls and betting, more
closely than any of us are aware of. (they will deny this for sure). Watch Swan in the near future.
joea


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> I'm no supporter of Ms Gillard, but I think it's facile of the rest of the government to place the entire blame for their miserable showing in the polls at her feet.
> They all need to take responsibility, Wayne Swan first.




If you are leader of a party and that party is the government, the "buck" stops with the leader.
Gillard is a "dictatorial" leader. 
Many times I have seen her MP's come up with a solution, and they are shot down by Gillard.
She breaks them!!!! breaks their spirit and their "morale".

I have no "sympathy" for Gillard from the day when elected leader and walked into parliament,
stuck her nose in the air, glared at Abbott and said "bring it on".
That is the act of a "5 year old". And that set the scene for the parliament as it is today.
She has desecrated the Australian democracy "as we knew it".

The Australian voter will be the judge, and will appropriately appoint individual responsibility(for their miserable showing) at the next election. 
Personally I believe there are achievers in the Labor movement.

Gillard is the leader, (but she is not the leader Australia needs).

joea


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> Gillard is a "dictatorial" leader.



Not only to her party, but also to the people. She is also obsessive about power.

These characteristics are not good for our economy or democracy and a growing proportion of the electorate is understanding this. 

Labor cannot recover under her leadership and the party at large would understand this. It's only a question of time.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Not only to her party, but also to the people. She is also obsessive about power.
> 
> These characteristics are not good for our economy or democracy and a growing proportion of the electorate is understanding this.
> 
> Labor cannot recover under her leadership and the party at large would understand this. It's only a question of time.




+1 she has cooked her goose.


----------



## noco

Under the influence of the Bloody Greens,the Galilee Coal basin has been threatened. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...om-promised-land/story-fn8v83qk-1226429418653


----------



## noco

So much for the sweetners to help working families and kids at school from the Carbon dioxide tax.

Blown on the pokies as Abbott had predicted and pooh whood by Gillard.

What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ts/column_labor_trips_over_its_naivety_again/


----------



## drsmith

I commented yesterday about cash payments, polls and the blockage Mr Principals should be having in his wind pipe over his deal with the devil.

Looking at Andrew Bolt's blog it seems that cost cutting in the media industry goes well beyond Fairfax. There's no one to moderate his topics, hence no comments.


----------



## bunyip

http://www.youtube.com/embed/W8sarHnaSp0?rel=0


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Under the influence of the Bloody Greens,the Galilee Coal basin has been threatened.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...om-promised-land/story-fn8v83qk-1226429418653



With coal, the Greens are of the view that it should stay in the ground. 

This of course is rubbish. Unless we are able to harness new sources of energy it will. It can either happen with us in control as a wealthy nation or under someone else's control with us as a poor nation. This is something the Greens in their idiological wonderland either fail to understand or acknowledge.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> With coal, the Greens are of the view that it should stay in the ground.
> 
> This of course is rubbish. Unless we are able to harness new sources of energy it will. It can either happen with us in control as a wealthy nation or under someone else's control with us as a poor nation. This is something the Greens in their idiological wonderland either fail to understand or acknowledge.




You are absolutely right Doc and Gillard is standing along side the Greens in her true Fabian fashion.

Gillard and the Greens want to break this great nation of ours in order to nationalize every living thing we own including the Banks and the Media in the true socialitic way of Communism.


----------



## sptrawler

I really think everyone is exhausted with complaining about Labor and Gillard, it is as though we are in a constant loop. 
IMO it's over, they are finished, the longer they prolong the election the worse they will do.
Funny enough, I don't think a massive landslide to the coalition is a good thing. However the longer Gillard puts off facing the voters, the more the voter resentment builds.
No matter what happens with the economy, no matter how many handouts, the perception is she is avoiding the voters. It has to end up badly.


----------



## joea

I have read an article that says Albanese will be possibly the key to a new leader(if it happens).

The Australian has a article "The Silence is Deafening on Rudd's Return". 
It indicates the polls next month may have some influence.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-on-rudds-return/story-e6frgd0x-1226430370869

There has to be a trigger somewhere, or is it the by - election in Melbourne???

joea


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> I really think everyone is exhausted with complaining about Labor and Gillard, it is as though we are in a constant loop.
> IMO it's over, they are finished, the longer they prolong the election the worse they will do.
> Funny enough, I don't think a massive landslide to the coalition is a good thing. However the longer Gillard puts off facing the voters, the more the voter resentment builds.
> No matter what happens with the economy, no matter how many handouts, the perception is she is avoiding the voters. It has to end up badly.





There is just so much to complain about.
Ford was given $34 million in subsidies and Gillard epected 300 jobs to be created back in jan instead ford now looks like axing 440 jobs  
Noticed that mining jobs board the govt setup was also a fail. The list of fails is now so long it must be some kind of record

I noticed the unions getting nervous that their cash cow might be getting the boot. She has provided them with bucket loads of cash and IR in their favor. I'd like to see the lot of the unions be swept with a fine tooth comb over finances.

I was at a 40th birthday over the weekend and it was surprising the amount of hatred for labor coming out of a town considered a labor stronghold.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> You are absolutely right Doc and Gillard is standing along side the Greens in her true Fabian fashion.
> 
> Gillard and the Greens want to break this great nation of ours in order to nationalize every living thing we own including the Banks and the Media in the true socialitic way of Communism.



Labor are just incompetent and are simply clinging to power for as long as possible regardless of the consequences. The Greens have a broader view that is not consistent with the best interests of us as a nation and the independents aligned with Labor want history to remember them.


----------



## drsmith

Tony Windsor has attended the Andrew Wilkie course on empty threats,



> "The document I signed with Julia Gillard is not a transferrable document."
> 
> However, Mr Windsor conceded that while his agreement would be nullified by a change of leader, the government could continue under those circumstances without a fresh agreement.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...vernment-over-pm/story-fn59niix-1226430711029


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> Tony Windsor has attended the Andrew Wilkie course on empty threats,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...vernment-over-pm/story-fn59niix-1226430711029




Tony Windsor really does talk a lot of nonsense.  He thinks he is coming across as measured and balanced but he just looks like a buffoon and it's been quite obvious for a long time now he will back labor at any cost.


----------



## noco

It is getting close to August and I think Oakeshott is about to make his move. I believe he has had enough of Gillard and Labor.
He could make himself a hero in his electorate if he does.

Maybe he will force an election before xmas.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...over-labor-blues/story-fndo20i0-1226430927254


----------



## sails

This first article asks labor MPs what they would really think about these highly intrusive snooping laws if this were coming from a conservative government.  I think they would vehemently oppose it.

http://ipa.org.au/news/2709/labor's-two-edged-sword

More here:  http://stopbigbrother.com.au/


----------



## joea

noco said:


> It is getting close to August and I think Oakeshott is about to make his move. I believe he has had enough of Gillard and Labor.
> He could make himself a hero in his electorate if he does.
> 
> Maybe he will force an election before xmas.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...over-labor-blues/story-fndo20i0-1226430927254




Luxbet have the following prices.

Rudd at $2.05
Gillard at $2.60

Oakeshott at $5.00 versus AOC $1.15
Windsor at $3.75  versus AOC $1.23
AOC - any other candidate

joea


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> It is getting close to August and I think Oakeshott is about to make his move. I believe he has had enough of Gillard and Labor.
> He could make himself a hero in his electorate if he does.
> 
> Maybe he will force an election before xmas.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...over-labor-blues/story-fndo20i0-1226430927254




Anyone with a brain would try and disassociate themselves from labor. Not to do so is political suicide and I don't think Oakeshott wants to go out and find a real job. Windsor looks as though he has lost the plot and Wilkie will be trying to find a way to save his ar$e.
All in all a real joke, everyone trying to jump ship. Can't wait to hear the fall out from the Victorian election on the weekend, they say it will be close. I certainly hope so, or the big red panic button will be pressed big time.LOL


----------



## sptrawler

I saw this article in the SMH and asked myself why didn't they ask the question. 
Should Oakeshott withdraw support?
Funny they put the rider on it " if the leadership debate continues"
Who cares what the issue is, just ask the simple question. My guess is the reporter knew what the result would be and didn't want it in black and white.


http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/oakeshott-election-threat-to-labor-20120720-22eks.html


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> It is getting close to August and I think Oakeshott is about to make his move. I believe he has had enough of Gillard and Labor.
> He could make himself a hero in his electorate if he does.
> 
> Maybe he will force an election before xmas.



I'm not convinced of that.  He was interviewed on this on "PM" this evening.  Imo two things are happening here:

1.  Mr Oakeshott is suffering relevance deprivation syndrome in that he hasn't been in the news much recently so is attempting to draw attention to himself once again.

2.  He is all hot air.  Just hoping that his threat (and astonishingly he denies that he's making any threat) will pull the government into line and stop their bickering about the leadership issue.
Of course neither he nor Tony Windsor are going to do anything which will prompt an early election.
They would, in that instance, both lose their seats.

Much about nothing imo.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I'm not convinced of that.  He was interviewed on this on "PM" this evening.  Imo two things are happening here:
> 
> 1.  Mr Oakeshott is suffering relevance deprivation syndrome in that he hasn't been in the news much recently so is attempting to draw attention to himself once again.
> 
> 2.  He is all hot air.  Just hoping that his threat (and astonishingly he denies that he's making any threat) will pull the government into line and stop their bickering about the leadership issue.
> Of course neither he nor Tony Windsor are going to do anything which will prompt an early election.
> They would, in that instance, both lose their seats.
> 
> Much about nothing imo.




Windsor I believe will retire and not sit again.

I still believe if Oakeshott forced to an election he would become a hero.

It is also my belief Oakeshott went with Gillard on the promise of extracting plenty of money for his electorate. So his constituents may weigh that up with him pulling the pin on this terrible government and it  may well help his relection chances.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Windsor I believe will retire and not sit again.
> 
> I still believe if Oakeshott forced to an election he would become a hero.
> 
> It is also my belief Oakeshott went with Gillard on the promise of extracting plenty of money for his electorate. So his constituents may weigh that up with him pulling the pin on this terrible government and it  may well help his relection chances.




I agree with you noco, Windsor has lost it.

IMO Oakeshott is a loser and will do anything to save his skin a lot rides on this weekend election. If labor go down, big time, Oakeshott and Wilkie will be looking for the EXIT sign.
From what I hear, there isn't a liberal candidate, so they can't even say the loss is due to the 'Tony'  factor


----------



## noco

Here is an interesting comment from Andrew Bolt which appears he is being a bit sceptical.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/believe_it_when_he_does_it/


----------



## Julia

From the above link to Andrew Bolt's blog:


> Mind you, an early election means the end of Oakeshott’s own career:



Exactly the point I made a bit earlier.

I hardly think Mr Oakeshott will be placing the "good of the nation" over his own political survival, even if it's only for the next year until he cannot avoid an election.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> From the above link to Andrew Bolt's blog:
> 
> Exactly the point I made a bit earlier.
> 
> I hardly think Mr Oakeshott will be placing the "good of the nation" over his own political survival, even if it's only for the next year until he cannot avoid an election.




Well that depends on wether Mr Oakeshott feels there is more votes by saying he no longer agrees with labor, or goes down with the sinking ship.
Lets not forget he really has no underlying affiliation with labor, he only has a responsibility to his electorate. Which he represents as an independent. 
If he continues to blindly follow a labor driven agenda, which by polls is unpopular. he will no longer be seen as as an independent.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.

It cracks me up when he and Windsor say they only have an agreement with Gillard, what happens if 'god forbid' she passes away.
The government goes down the toilet.LOL,LOL What a circus.

What a way to run a country,"If Julia goes, we will shut down the government"  three clowns running the circus.LOL,LOL


----------



## joea

This link has a leader change late August, prior to Parliament resuming.
That's probably why the silence in Canberra.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...us-reinstate-rudd-rapidly-20120720-22fni.html

I think the change of leaders will be step one.
Then discussions with the Independents and Greens will bring out another wish list.
This is where Rob will be outspoken. Rob will have a document on how the minority gov. will
improve with the new leader.

cheers joea


----------



## drsmith

With the by-election of the state seat of Melbourne with ~31% counted, the Greens currently have ~39% and Labor ~32%. 2PP has the Greens at ~53% and Labor ~47%.

http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/Results/StateBy2012resultMelbourneDistrict.html

Another nail in Gillard's coffin if the Greens get up ?

The Sex Party is polling third with ~7%, well ahead of Family First with ~3%. No suprise there as sex comes before family.


----------



## sptrawler

The problem for labor, as I see it, under Rudd they had useless gutless politicians led by a meglomaniac that wouldn't listen and did his own thing.
Now they have useless gutless politicians led by a meglomaniac, that pretends to listen, then does her own thing.

Everyone is so over this government, just a sad chapter in our history.
I read today that labor popularity had only hit 30%(in a month) once in our history. Apparently it has hit 30% 10 times in the last two years.
Well at least they are shattering some records.


----------



## joea

I had a nightmare seeing Gillard in the media saying, "labor supporters have put us over the line".
"This would be the best thing for Australia".

Woke up the computer to see Labor slightly in front.

NOW I CANNOT SLEEP:1zhelp:

joea


----------



## sptrawler

I find watching Julia on t.v is like an episode from that show Kath and Tim. "Look at meee, look at meee, your not listening"


----------



## dutchie

More money well spent!

http://www.news.com.au/money/teens-get-cash-bonus/story-e6frfmci-1226432209377


----------



## drsmith

Labor's budget is starting to smolder around the edges.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-boom-forecast-to-end-in-two-years-20120722-22ibe.html


----------



## sptrawler

Well Mal Brough, has been cleared of the smear campaign.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...mayoral-election/story-e6freon6-1226433008575

Now all Labor have to do is clean up their own back yard. Obviously nobody is buying their spin.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/all-qld-labor-mps-could-go-newspoll/story-e6freon6-1226413937281.

They missed their chance just after pushing through the carbon tax. If they had called an election on the premise that it was the correct call for Australia's future, they would carry a degree of credibility.
However they are choosing to hold off an election for as long as possible, which just adds to the perception that they don't believe their own spin.
The longer they leave it the worse it will get, even they will realise it sooner or later.


----------



## sptrawler

Well after the outburst against the press and everybody else that disagrees with them. Maybe the government should call for a royal commission into the conduct and fiscal managementof all unions. LOL,LOL

http://www.smh.com.au/national/hsus-20-million-in-dodgy-deals-20120723-22kmi.html

I'm sure if it was a listed company, the proverbial would hit the fan. I can see this escalating.


----------



## joea

Well the votes are in.
It was said if she got a 2 in front of the primary vote it was all over for Julia.
Primary vote for Labor 28%
Two party preferred Coalition 56%, Labor 44%.
Preferred PM, Abbott 40%, Gillard 36%.

Now we will see if the tipsters are all hot air or fact.

On the election. There is no need to call an election by Labor. They just have to complete their term.
The election we "need to have ", will only be initiated by the reaction to a leader change, and the associated
fall out of 'egos". IMO.
We will also see where Oakeshott is coming from with his last statement on Labor leadership.
"Giggling Windsor" will in the neutral corner. 
August could be an interesting month for the media.

I watched Shorten make a statement last night. If the Australian people accept him as an alternative PM,
we are in bigger trouble than we think.

joeat


----------



## noco

I must confess I am becoming confused with different comments coming out of the mouths various Labor heavy weights. Viz Fitzgibbon, Arbib and some of the unions. 

I am over trying to predict what will happen to Gillard.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...all-on-her-sword/story-e6frgd0x-1226433373070


----------



## Logique

Noco, I heard on radio this morning the latest Newspoll has the national ALP primary vote at 28%. The Union bosses haven't helped the PM with their hamfisted commentary. 

With the alternative of Kevin Rudd, he would have to survive the QLD cleanout, that is win his own seat.

As for the the balance-of-power Independents, are these the guys you mean:


----------



## drsmith

It doesn't matter what Julia Gillard does with her sword.

Labor will hit the panic button before the next election and put her prime-ministership to the sword. The only question between now and then is is the timing.

The electorate will then put Labor to the sword and cut it to ribbons.


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> The electorate will then put Labor to the sword and cut it to ribbons.




Well deserved too. 

They have cost this country plenty and it will take a long time to claw it back.


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> They have cost this country plenty and it will take a long time to claw it back.



The full extent we won't know until after Labor is deposed.


----------



## sails

It would seem our economy is not all in the good shape that Swan would have us believe:



> AUSTRALIA'S building industry is in survival mode, with official statistics revealing that at least two companies a day are going to the wall as labour costs continue to rise, profit margins flatline and banks play hardball on funding.
> 
> The latest statistics on liquidations and voluntary administrations show that since January 1 more than 363 companies in the building industry, excluding mining, have collapsed, more than 200 of them from New South Wales and 95 from Victoria.
> 
> What is even more alarming is the trend seems to be getting worse, with 30 building companies failing in March, 33 in April, 51 in May, 63 in June and a whopping 40 collapsing in the first 10 days of July.
> 
> Profit margins have shrunk to between zero and 2 per cent.
> 
> It isn't a pretty picture and supports the general economic statistics, which show that as a proportion of nominal gross domestic product (GDP) building activity in Australia is close to a 35-year low. Outside mining, Australia is in the midst of a downturn in residential, commercial and public sector infrastructure activity.




Read more from the SMH:  Industry gradually crumbling by ADELE FERGUSON


----------



## drsmith

Where have the last remaining supporters of this wonderful government gone ?

Have they retreated to the deepest caverns of the bunker ?


----------



## noco

sails said:


> It would seem our economy is not all in the good shape that Swan would have us believe:
> 
> 
> 
> Read more from the SMH:  Industry gradually crumbling by ADELE FERGUSON




These are the trends Gillard and Swan will try to hide. Why hasn't some reporters asked them the question?


----------



## Vader

Labor's strategy from here on is pretty obvious isn't it?... (this is probably back in the thread somewhere... I just wasn't prepared to read much of it, so apologies if I'm going over old ground, lol)

They know they can't win the next election and they know neither Julia nor Rudd are going to be leading them after this election... so they really don't have any other option but to put Rudd back in as leader - either just before the next election is due, or to get it all over with and trigger an election (and probably bring the independents into the spotlight as much as possible).

...it has to be Rudd going into the next election - not only will that put the leadership issue to bed once and for all (after the election), but most people agree he is a better 'election runner', which means they are going to lose 'less bad' with Rudd at the helm as opposed to Julia... damage control has to be pretty high on their agenda at this point - they don't want things to turn out like it did in the Qld state election... it'll be bad... but they have to make sure it's not that bad.

After the election (and the loss) is over... Bill Shorten comes up to the plate and takes over with a fresh start for a long stint as opposition leader... is Shorten the best option? Maybe, maybe not - but he's definitely the one they are grooming - he's had increased media time for a few months now and is well and truly the one Labor powerbrokers have in their long term plans.

...so the only question at the moment is when Rudd becomes leader again - everything else has a pretty logical timeline around it... there is no other play for Labor IMO (anyone think otherwise?), they are pretty well painted into a corner at the moment.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> It would seem our economy is not all in the good shape that Swan would have us believe:
> Industry gradually crumbling by ADELE FERGUSON[/URL]



It has been widely accepted for some time that the building industry is in the doldrums so no real news there.
Glenn Stevens is presently spreading the message that overall Australia is economically very healthy
http://www.businessspectator.com.au...utm_content=81512&utm_campaign=pm&modapt=news
In the radio excerpt I heard with him today, he indicated the Reserve has no plan to make further interest rate cuts for the foreseeable future, so he'd hardly be saying that if the economy overall was in trouble.



Vader said:


> ...it has to be Rudd going into the next election - not only will that put the leadership issue to bed once and for all (after the election), but most people agree he is a better 'election runner',



To state this so categorically ignores the fact that much of the present front bench have declared they could never again work with  him.  How is that going to be managed?



> ...so the only question at the moment is when Rudd becomes leader again - everything else has a pretty logical timeline around it... there is no other play for Labor IMO (anyone think otherwise?), they are pretty well painted into a corner at the moment.



I have no idea what Labor should do to try to save themselves, but in light of the vicious pejorative remarks made a few months ago by cabinet ministers about the 'dysfunctional'   'chaotic'  Rudd, I can't see that just tossing Gillard out and ushering Rudd back in is the right solution.

Just think of the sound bites the Libs would have in the election campaign.  What a gift to them.


----------



## moXJO

Labor is turning so toxic I think it might be to late to turn to Rudd. The window of opportunity to trundle him out died months ago.


----------



## orr

Vader said:


> ...it has to be Rudd going into the next election - not only will that put the leadership issue to bed once and for all (after the election), but most people agree he is a better 'election runner', which means they are going to lose 'less bad' with Rudd at the helm as opposed to Julia... damage control has to be pretty high on their agenda




How about someone completely chinless and acceptable to the ALP right(currently over seas a bit) and you'd only have to add glory to his vanity in his nailing himself to mast of the seemingly sinking ship. Add to that, it will be his only ever shot at what he desperately desirers, before ****s take  a leadership role a couple of years down the track.
And completely neuters the internal knifing of Rudd, all that glorious footage nothing but scraps on the cutting room floor at Tory campaign HQ


----------



## joea

orr said:


> How about someone completely chinless and acceptable to the ALP right(currently over seas a bit) and you'd only have to add glory to his vanity in his nailing himself to mast of the seemingly sinking ship. Add to that, it will be his only ever shot at what he desperately desirers, before ****s take  a leadership role a couple of years down the track.
> And completely neuters the internal knifing of Rudd, all that glorious footage nothing but scraps on the cutting room floor at Tory campaign HQ




The overall problem with Labor's leadership and government, is it's all short term.
They appear to, and do  "jump at shadows".
In hindsight I now believe that Rudd's original stint at PM was a farce to get Gillard there.

Maybe it was, maybe it was not, but my point is "if it was", then surely they would want to 
make amends for that style of a campaign.
My point is "have they woken up enough this time"? If they have, it will not be Rudd.

If Rudd is put in as leader, they questions will be, "who will be the front and back bench"?

It will look like "Dad's bloody army". They same one that came down the hallway when 
Gillard "oust" him.(Rudd).

To quote Gecko, " We, (Labor) have a serious problem."
So the alternate leader has to be the person who can pick the strongest front and back bench.
He also has to have the people in mind that will win a seat at the next election!!!

IMO they cannot get over the first hurdle.i.e. pick a leader who has a chance.
It has all got too hard for them. Similar to their handling of the "asylum seeker fiasco".

So the end result will be to draw out the current term of government.
It is only the independents that can create any "waves" to end the current stalemate!!.

joea


----------



## noco

The independants joined up with Labor in 2010 stating they saw a more stable government under Gillard.

What must they really be thinking now?

Paul Kelly sums up the situation between Gillard and Rudd and if the indies do read his comments, I would like to hear what they now say about the instablility that is going on now.  


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...rudd-or-oblivion/story-e6frg74x-1226434217314


----------



## dutchie

Julia is a dud.
Rudd is a dud.
Swan is a dud.
Shorten is a dud.
Labor is a dud.
Labor is a vacumn of no-hopers
Pack your bags and go away, the lot of you.


----------



## bunyip

The following is from Alan Jones on Gillard's involvement in union corruption. She’ll be hoping like hell that the incoming conservative government next year doesn't instigate a full blown criminal investigation into this affair.


http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13667


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> The independants joined up with Labor in 2010 stating they saw a more stable government under Gillard.
> 
> What must they really be thinking now?
> 
> Paul Kelly sums up the situation between Gillard and Rudd and if the indies do read his comments, I would like to hear what they now say about the instablility that is going on now.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...rudd-or-oblivion/story-e6frg74x-1226434217314



It's been clear for some time that the independents have chained themselves to the sinking Labor ship and thrown away the key.


----------



## DB008

bunyip said:


> The following is from Alan Jones on Gillard's involvement in union corruption. She’ll be hoping like hell that the incoming conservative government next year doesn't instigate a full blown criminal investigation into this affair.
> 
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13667




BINGO!!!

Good find.

Having said that, we all know that it is a coverup and a f**ken joke and a half....

What l would like to say, in general, is that people who are aged between 18-35 (roughly), are still ALP supporters. You'd be very, very surprised how many people l speak to, who are in this age group, hate the Libs. 
Scary.


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> In hindsight I now believe that Rudd's original stint at PM was a farce to get Gillard there.



It's clear now that in 2007, even after 11 years in the wilderness that Labor was not ready to govern. This is in stark contrast to Labor in 1983.

Had the Coalition not let power go to it's head after the 2004 election and had and orderly transition from Howard to Costello, they might have been in power for another 11 years.


----------



## Miss Hale

bunyip said:


> The following is from Alan Jones on Gillard's involvement in union corruption. She’ll be hoping like hell that the incoming conservative government next year doesn't instigate a full blown criminal investigation into this affair.
> 
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13667




Thanks for the link. Some of the information in that interview is shocking.  Can people really be beaten up by union thugs and have bullets sent to them in the mail in the the 21st century?  I felt physically ill after listening to that.


----------



## pilots

That is one of the best I have heard from ALlan Jones, hopefully it will be the end of gillard. God I hated Rudd, but he was a shining light compared with what we have now.


----------



## joea

bunyip said:


> The following is from Alan Jones on Gillard's involvement in union corruption. She’ll be hoping like hell that the incoming conservative government next year doesn't instigate a full blown criminal investigation into this affair.
> 
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13667




Yes, it is good that this is being exposed again. Coalition will not have to campaign.

When Gillard looses the PM tag, WE WILL HEAR THE  "whining and wailing" from NTH. Qld.
Meanwhile the scratches in the wall and door as they drag her out of the Lodge, will no doubt be fixed by some
very good house restorer.
joea:bananasmi


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> The following is from Alan Jones on Gillard's involvement in union corruption. She’ll be hoping like hell that the incoming conservative government next year doesn't instigate a full blown criminal investigation into this affair.
> 
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13667




I have recently been made aware of _first hand knowledge_ that this and other related rumours are in fact  true, in the words of the informer, Gillard is a bad piece of work and he is dismayed that she is PM of Australia, she is absolutely unfit for the position.


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> I have recently been made aware of _first hand knowledge_ that this and other related rumours are in fact  true, in the words of the informer, Gillard is a bad piece of work and he is dismayed that she is PM of Australia, she is absolutely unfit for the position.




Does anyone think that Gillard's recent statements about seeking a "middle ground" in relation to media legislation may be to placate the media so that they hold off on pursuing this issue?

I can't for the life of me understand why any journalist worth his/her salt isn't investigating this to the fullest extent.


----------



## MrBurns

bellenuit said:


> I can't for the life of me understand why any journalist worth his/her salt isn't investigating this to the fullest extent.




Me either, it seems impossible for this to be covered up if it's true but as least Jones is having a say, but this would be the story of the century so I really cant understand why it isn't on the front pages......unless it's too much gossip and not enough proof ?


----------



## MrBurns

Just got my gas bill $100 per week.

Don't suppose it's Gillards fault is it ?

$100 per week ??????????????? used to be able to rent a place for that.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Me either, it seems impossible for this to be covered up if it's true but as least Jones is having a say, but this would be the story of the century so I really cant understand why it isn't on the front pages......unless it's too much gossip and not enough proof ?




Well when we look at the Craig Thompson fiasco, what have we got.
Kathy has no job. Pleading in Court to clear her name.
Williamson all over the front page.
Its about every thing except Craig Thompson, who is a Labor MP in the disguise of an Independent.
Wonder why that is.?

I am thinking if, and when it comes out it will be at an appropriate time.
No good one journalist bringing it up. It has to be all  the papers and media at the one time.

So now I will say quite bluntly why it has not happened.
Because of repercussions from the Prime Ministers office. Plain and Simple.
joea


----------



## Happy

bunyip said:


> The following is from Alan Jones on Gillard's involvement in union corruption. She’ll be hoping like hell that the incoming conservative government next year doesn't instigate a full blown criminal investigation into this affair.
> 
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13667





Something similar Alan Jones run on Mr Thompson and it was quite a few months ago.

For some reason nothing seems to happen, also those "Julia Gate" revelations do not seem to be too public.

Wander why?


----------



## drsmith

Happy said:


> For some reason nothing seems to happen, also those "Julia Gate" revelations do not seem to be too public.
> 
> Wander why?



If it's as clear cut as Alan Jones paints it, then why wouldn't the media burn her alive ?


----------



## bunyip

drsmith said:


> If it's as clear cut as Alan Jones paints it, then why wouldn't the media burn her alive ?




I've wondered the same myself - why isn't the media on to this more (the bloke in the Alan Jones interview reckons that Gillard shut down his attempt to run the story in the media - I don't know how she'd have the power to do that).
And why aren't the police or the Federal Police all over it?


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> I've wondered the same myself - why isn't the media on to this more



The Australian has been across it on more than one occasion, in almost as much detail as in the Jones interview.



> And why aren't the police or the Federal Police all over it?



Don't they have to receive a formal complaint from someone who has been adversely affected by all or any part of what happened?
I might be quite wrong, but I don't think they just start investigating something as a result, e.g., of a radio interview such as we've just heard here.
From what I gathered, Paul Howes would be in a position to institute a formal complaint.

Even so, is anyone really surprised that such disgraceful behaviour has been happening in any union?

Re Gillard's involvement, again I don't actually know, but couldn't she claim that her personal relationship with Wilson was and is irrelevant, and that her actions as a lawyer with S & G were those of anyone employed by that firm and therefore didn't constitute personal responsibility on her part for any inappropriate activities?

(I don't know:  I'm no lawyer.  Someone will know this.)
I'd just assume that with all the powerful people out to get Gillard if her guilt as suggested in this discussion is so clear cut, they'd have done something about it by now.


----------



## joea

Am I missing something?
What reforms have Labor introduced since Gillard stepped into the ring?
I thought they were all taxes. To share the wealth!!!
Better still when does a tax turn into a reform?

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ut-labors-plan-to-rebuild-20120724-22nl7.html

In the above link, it is said they are working on a plan.
You beauty!!

joea


----------



## startrader

bunyip said:


> I've wondered the same myself - why isn't the media on to this more (the bloke in the Alan Jones interview reckons that Gillard shut down his attempt to run the story in the media - I don't know how she'd have the power to do that).
> And why aren't the police or the Federal Police all over it?




Pickering explains why in his two part story on his site:

http://pickeringpost.com/news/gillard-the-story-she-tried-to-kill-part-1/66

According to him News Ltd and Fairfax were threatened by Gillard and the threat worked as their staff had been engaging in phone hacking - Pickering says he has spoken to victims.


----------



## Logique

bunyip said:


> The following is from Alan Jones on Gillard's involvement in union corruption. She’ll be hoping like hell that the incoming conservative government next year doesn't instigate a full blown criminal investigation into this affair.
> 
> http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=13667



Utterly damning, both of the Unions and the PM, and also the ALP, who saw no problem in appointing someone like this as PM.


----------



## sptrawler

It is a shame Harry Jenkins doesn't go straight away, give a bit of payback after the way he was treated.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...he-next-election/story-e6freuy9-1226435709051


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> It is a shame Harry Jenkins doesn't go straight away, give a bit of payback after the way he was treated.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...he-next-election/story-e6freuy9-1226435709051




I don't think you need to worry about Harry Jenkins not being well compensated by Gillard in some way.

He would have received some incentive to help shore up the ailing Gillard hold her job in case Wilkie deserted her.


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Don't they have to receive a formal complaint from someone who has been adversely affected by all or any part of what happened?
> I might be quite wrong, but I don't think they just start investigating something as a result, e.g., of a radio interview such as we've just heard here.
> From what I gathered, Paul Howes would be in a position to institute a formal complaint.




You’re probably right about that, Julia. 
You’d think that some irate unionist would have already lodged a formal complaint with police to get criminal proceedings under way against this character who appears to have fleeced the union, apparently with Gillard’s help.
It seems inconceivable that nobody would report that level of criminality to the authorities.
Maybe these unionists enjoy getting ripped off!

As you say, perhaps it's not as cut and dried as it appears.


----------



## sptrawler

What is everyones take on the disability arguement at the moment. From what I am hearing labor want to run a trail scheme in selected areas and want all the States to throw money in.
The two issues I see is:
1 The Federal Government want to run it and are willing to put in $1B dollars, well that shouldn't be a problem now they have the extra income from the the carbon and mineral taxes. The States will have to find more money to put in, guess what another tax hike at State level.

2 The most worrying aspect in my opinion is the Federal Government will run the scheme.LOL


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> What is everyones take on the disability arguement at the moment. From what I am hearing labor want to run a trail scheme in selected areas and want all the States to throw money in.
> The two issues I see is:
> 1 The Federal Government want to run it and are willing to put in $1B dollars, well that shouldn't be a problem now they have the extra income from the the carbon and mineral taxes. The States will have to find more money to put in, guess what another tax hike at State level.
> 
> 2 The most worrying aspect in my opinion is the Federal Government will run the scheme.LOL




Gillard is putting in $1 Billion and out of that the cost to administer will be $665,000,000 leaving $335,000,000 for the NDIS.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure I heard it on one of the news channels.

I think the conservative states are worried it will be another Labor stuff up.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> What is everyones take on the disability arguement at the moment. From what I am hearing labor want to run a trail scheme in selected areas and want all the States to throw money in.
> The two issues I see is:
> 1 The Federal Government want to run it and are willing to put in $1B dollars, well that shouldn't be a problem now they have the extra income from the the carbon and mineral taxes. The States will have to find more money to put in, guess what another tax hike at State level.
> 
> 2 The most worrying aspect in my opinion is the Federal Government will run the scheme.LOL






noco said:


> Gillard is putting in $1 Billion and out of that the cost to administer will be $665,000,000 leaving $335,000,000 for the NDIS.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure I heard it on one of the news channels.
> 
> I think the conservative states are worried it will be another Labor stuff up.



This is Gillard's initiative.  The States already have their various disability services plans, many of which are undoubtedly inadequate, so certainly it's a worthwhile initiative.

However, (and I can only comment on Queensland) while Can-do Newman is trying to save the state from bankruptcy, he's fairly reasonably refusing to stump up the amount suddenly demanded by Gillard.
Probably the same applies for Victoria and NSW.

As far as I can tell, the main difference over present schemes will be that disabled people will be allocated X number of dollars on determination of their level of disability which they may then use to purchase services to help them, rather than the present system which does not tailor services to their personal needs.
It's a good idea and one which will give disabled people a sense of autonomy and dignity, so it's pretty hard for the Liberal premiers to refuse to participate.  
As I understand it, they have all agreed it's a good idea but said they cannot immediately come up with the funding Gillard is demanding.

Undoubtedly on top of that will be the 'stuff up ' factor by anything the Federal government touches.

Others might know more.  Just as I understand it at present.


----------



## noco

I finally viewed a link to the admin cost of the NDIS and my previous statement is confirmed.

So it looks like Gillard is intending increasing the Federal Public Service. More bureaucrats to reduce unemploment.

http://www.2gb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8733&Itemid=90


----------



## dutchie

noco said:


> Gillard is putting in $1 Billion and out of that the cost to administer will be $665,000,000 leaving $335,000,000 for the NDIS.




So our government system is that it takes $2 to administer $1  -  awesome!!


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> This is Gillard's initiative.  The States already have their various disability services plans, many of which are undoubtedly inadequate, so certainly it's a worthwhile initiative.
> 
> However, (and I can only comment on Queensland) while Can-do Newman is trying to save the state from bankruptcy, he's fairly reasonably refusing to stump up the amount suddenly demanded by Gillard.
> Probably the same applies for Victoria and NSW.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the main difference over present schemes will be that disabled people will be allocated X number of dollars on determination of their level of disability which they may then use to purchase services to help them, rather than the present system which does not tailor services to their personal needs.
> It's a good idea and one which will give disabled people a sense of autonomy and dignity, so it's pretty hard for the Liberal premiers to refuse to participate.
> As I understand it, they have all agreed it's a good idea but said they cannot immediately come up with the funding Gillard is demanding.
> 
> Undoubtedly on top of that will be the 'stuff up ' factor by anything the Federal government touches.
> 
> Others might know more.  Just as I understand it at present.




It sounds as if Gillard may have been playing politics.

http://www.smh.com.au/wa-news/gillard-inflexible-on-ndis-barnett-20120726-22uln.html

This constant sniping and trying to convince the population that everyone else is wrong. 
It is going to backfire badly, she can't run the country like they run the unions, by brow beating everyone.
I was at the gym this morning(believe it or not) and on the overhead t.v's, one was showing an interview with Gillard the other showing some old Manchester United soccer footage.
I kept checking everyone out and nobody was watching Julia, what a hoot, they would rather watch 1960's and 70's soccer.
The die is cast, they are finished, people in W.A aren't great fans of soccer. LOL so where does that put Julia.


----------



## sptrawler

Interesting on the news tonight, they are trying to introduce hysteria into the political debate.
The word is the coalition is going to bring in candidates to focus on taking out labor politicians. 
But wait isn't that what happened with labor bringing in Maxine McKew and Peter Garret.
Then the reporters called it a master stroke, now they call it decapitation.
I for once agree with Bob Brown and Gillard, media bias really does need investigating. 
My guess is, the preliminary investigations into media bias have been reported to the government, and that is why we haven't heard any more about it.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I for once agree with Bob Brown and Gillard, media bias really does need investigating.
> My guess is, the preliminary investigations into media bias have been reported to the government, and that is why we haven't heard any more about it.



Can you be a bit more specific about what you see as media bias?
How much do you listen to/watch ABC radio and TV?
Ditto the Murdoch press?
Ditto Fairfax?

Any "bias" the government and the Greens are referring to sure as hell doesn't include anyone other than "the hate media" i.e. Murdoch.

Bias within ABC?  Of course not.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Can you be a bit more specific about what you see as media bias?
> How much do you listen to/watch ABC radio and TV?
> Ditto the Murdoch press?
> Ditto Fairfax?
> 
> Any "bias" the government and the Greens are referring to sure as hell doesn't include anyone other than "the hate media" i.e. Murdoch.
> 
> Bias within ABC?  Of course not.




The bias I see is Abbott is constantly portrayed as being aggressive and radical with no apparent insight to the issues. 
Yet time after time his stance has been proven right, still the media pursue him and try to prove him wrong or trip him up.
It is a shame they don't pursue the P.M with the same gusto.

The other observation I have made is when Abbott is given time and allowed to respond to questions, without the reporter constantly interupting, he seems calm, measured and very passive.

Generally reporters don't interupt Gillard, if they do she just brow beats them. yet they don't take her to task for the so called aggression. 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s-for-ndis-trial/story-fndo20i0-1226436411933

If you read the article in the link, why did the reporter put in the last sentence, other than to bias the report.

There were no similarities between the issues at all, other than the ones the reporter was trying to introduce.


----------



## sails

Sptrawler - I agree with you.  In general, ABC journalists seem very biased against the libs and Abbott and biased towards labor/greens and their respective leaders.  Much like Fairfax. While the occasional article comes through not so biased, it seems pretty rare.

And agree there was no need to swipe at Abbott once again over the border issue in that last sentence.  He has made his case clear and is willing to give bipartisan support for a system that is proven.  If he gave his support to any of Gillard's hare brained schemes, he would be blamed when they  fail.

Considering the majority of Aussie voters are against the carbon tax, urgently want our borders secured again and fed up with the spiralling debt and wasteful spending, it is astounding that our taxes have to pay for bias against the will of the majority.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...s-for-ndis-trial/story-fndo20i0-1226436411933
> 
> If you read the article in the link, why did the reporter put in the last sentence, other than to bias the report.
> 
> There were no similarities between the issues at all, other than the ones the reporter was trying to introduce.




The Courier Mail appears to be overly critical of Newman and the LNP. What is happening here is that in the absence of an effective Opposition the newspaper has assumed the role of Opposition. Their left wing cartoonist Lahey, is particularly nasty.


----------



## DB008

This landed in my inbox.

Little bit naughty.....lol


----------



## sptrawler

That's classic Danny.


----------



## joea

DB008 said:


> This landed in my inbox.
> 
> Little bit naughty.....lol




sp

Gingerella has been getting preferential treatment from the media for some time now.
It is not hard to work out why, with her threats to censor the media on government comments.

joea


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> The bias I see is Abbott is constantly portrayed as being aggressive and radical with no apparent insight to the issues.




Thats how he is ever the conservatives shake their heads at his rampant popular promises and politics with no thought of the future.



> Yet time after time his stance has been proven right, still the media pursue him and try to prove him wrong or trip him up.




Not sure what you mean here as he refused real interview for months.




> It is a shame they don't pursue the P.M with the same gusto.




Gillard has fronted the media continually unlike Abbott just taking photo ops with no questions.



> The other observation I have made is when Abbott is given time and allowed to respond to questions, without the reporter constantly interupting, he seems calm, measured and very passive.




On the insiders he was the most stressed person interviewed this year for good reason as he struggled with thought bubbles continually and Barry was very soft on him.


----------



## IFocus

Interesting reading the comments here about the NDIS and the rampant conservative bias by all as usual.

Michelle Grattan

Disability scheming trips up premiers



> WHO would think - who would believe - that politicians could make a handful of needy, disabled people the object of such shameless power play?
> 
> Last week's behaviour by Liberal premiers over the plan to get trials started for the National Disability Insurance Scheme badly misjudged the public mood.




Its for a trial



> The NSW Premier, Barry O'Farrell, and the Victorian Premier, Ted Baillieu, should have signed up to the trials when the Council of Australian Governments met on Wednesday. Instead they dug in their heels, resisting putting in $70 million and $40 million respectively. Despite the federal government providing most of the money for the proposed trials (in the Hunter and Barwon regions), the premiers insisted Canberra should pay the lot.


----------



## IFocus

DB008 said:


> This landed in my inbox.
> 
> Little bit naughty.....lol





Clever illustration to maintain the rights rage but  Abbott really is the mad hatter.


----------



## noco

So why  won't Gillard front up to Andrew Bolt or Alan Jones?


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> So why  won't Gillard front up to Andrew Bolt or Alan Jones?




Better still, why doesn't she front up to the electorate.

Obviously the English cycling team, are being coached by the Gillard coach. Blame the opposition for your poor performance.

http://www.theage.com.au/olympics/c...r-disappointing-road-race-20120729-234cz.html

A 33 man breakaway, what the, that isn't a breakaway thats the front of the race. It is a small pelaton not a 5 to 10 man breakaway.
They are in front, if you want to win, you have to go past them and with 33 they aren't going to tire.
Just like labor they blame poor planning, poor excecution and not having a long term plan on the opposition.
Ala, the greens carbon tax,the dismantling of the pacific solution, the n.b.n which will give our kids great online gaming speeds while importing workers to do their jobs. 
Well the last one they may be working to a longer term plan, which doesn't include paying our kids a good wage.IMO
Priceless, just priceless.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Thats how he is ever the conservatives shake their heads at his rampant popular promises and politics with no thought of the future.
> 
> *If he had no thought to the future he would be in the labor party.
> $300b debt and what to show for it, disater after disaster. To be covered by new taxes and increases to personal tax rates.
> Wow that's a winner*.
> 
> Not sure what you mean here as he refused real interview for months.
> 
> *Anyone would refuse to be interviewed when it is being doctored to portray what the reporter wants to push.
> That is unless you are being spoon fed crap, like the A.B.C feeds up to Gillard, which ends up being an advert to the labor faithfull.
> The next bleeding hearts on the t.v will be the A.B.C, because you can bet your bottom dollar when the Libs get in there will be a few A.B.C execs worried*.
> 
> Gillard has fronted the media continually unlike Abbott just taking photo ops with no questions.
> 
> *Absolutely the reporters probably belong to the Australian Journalist Association.
> http://www.australian-news.com.au/codethics.htm
> Why wouldn't she front them, most are onside and pander to her dribble. Fortunately the majority of Australians don't swallow it, that is obvious by the polls and Gillards reluctance to put her credentials to a vote.*
> 
> On the insiders he was the most stressed person interviewed this year for good reason as he struggled with thought bubbles continually and Barry was very soft on him.




*Didn't see it, however I have spoken with someone who was at an Abbott presentation. He said the reporters and t.v coverage did not reflect the actual tone or feeling of the presentation. He was shocked by the misrepresentation of the coverage. 
I don't know one way or the other, all I know is this is the worst bunch of dicks I have ever had the misfortune of being led by.*


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> So why  won't Gillard front up to Andrew Bolt or Alan Jones?



That's a very fair point.  Yes, Ms Gillard and Swannie both regularly appear on "7.30" where they are assured of some benign questions and as much space as they like to ramp up their policies.

Both leaders are imo guilty of being afraid to subject themselves to interview by anyone who they know will actually insist on some answers.  I cannot remember when I last saw Tony Abbott on '7.30'.


----------



## bunyip

More of what we’ve come to expect from the ALP....Gillard and her motley crew continue to set new standards in waste, mismanagement, and incompetence.
This mob couldn’t run a bath, let alone a country.


http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/indigenous-housing/


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Clever illustration to maintain the rights rage but  Abbott really is the mad hatter.





IFocus...Tell me something – are you happy with the performance of the current government?

Ok, I accept that you’re a Labor man and you like to run down Abbot and the Libs while praising Labor, just as most of us on here like to run down the ALP while seeing the positives in Abbot and Co.
But seriously, do you really think this Gillard government is doing a good job?

Do you really think they've behaved ethically in the shifty moves they've pulled to stay in power, are you happy with the lies they've told, do you think they've handled the country's finances and security well enough to make them worthy of being voted back in at the next election?

After all their ****-ups, from the lies about the carbon tax to the costly fiascos of the BER and the roof bats and the indigenous housing, not to mention the illegal immigrant debacle that's costing us thousands of millions of dollars - the list of stuff ups goes on and on..... does this government really inspire your confidence sufficiently to get your vote at the next election?


----------



## IFocus

noco said:


> So why  won't Gillard front up to Andrew Bolt or Alan Jones?




I quote Laurie Oakes who said "he didn't watch Bolts show because he already knew his onion". 

In other words he is only about pushing his view point of support for the Coalition not about serious political analysis or insightful commentary.

When ever I have watched Bolt I have always been amazed at his insistence of talking over any one who doesn't repeat his mantra which is always anti Labor.

His show also rates extremely low so why would a Labor Prime Minister front his show totally pointless.


As for Jones Gillard did front his show and he made a complete goose of himself speaking down to her about being a few minutes late and then of course there is the bag comments he made I think the style of was a 1st in Australian politics the man's a complete dog again why would Gillard front up now?

As for the others commenting about the ABC bias its just getting to the ridiculous.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> IFocus...Tell me something – are you happy with the performance of the current government?




The current Labor government is politically incompetent full stop letting some one like Abbott in is a serious matter.



> You like to run down Abbot and the Libs



 Dam right they are the second string Howard ministers and haven't gotten any better.




> while praising Labor,



 Try to add balance but haven't praised Labor for awhile actually.






> Just as most of us on here like to run down the ALP while seeing the positives in Abbot and Co.
> But seriously, do you really think this Gillard government is doing a good job?




Like I said they are politically incompetent 



> Do you really think they've behaved ethically in the shifty moves they've pulled to stay in power, are you happy with the lies they've told, do you think they've handled the country's finances and security well enough to make them worthy of being voted back in at the next election?




I take it you don't know about Abbott's past then?
You all have short memory's on how much Howard was promising to spend (like a drunken sailor) on his last election. If money really worries you add up Abbotts promises of permanent spending from revenue and tell me its all going to be OK.





> After all their ****-ups, from the lies about the carbon tax to the costly fiascos of the BER and the roof bats and the indigenous housing, not to mention the illegal immigrant debacle that's costing us thousands of millions of dollars - the list of stuff ups goes on and on..... does this government really inspire your confidence sufficiently to get your vote at the next election?




Labor will get smashed next election, you will all get your wishes and if its as bad as current polls there will be no opposition then the pain will start..........seriously.

One last comment Abbott says he will remove mining and carbon taxes............no tax thats no tax in the history of federation has ever been removed and not replaced with another tax never has and never will for one very good reason.


----------



## sptrawler

Well IFocus, I don't like or watch Bolt, for the reasons you mentioned. Also I agree Abbott won't remove a tax that has been passed.
The underlying problem is Labor treats the electorate with contempt, they will pay dearly for that.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> The current Labor government is politically incompetent full stop letting some one like Abbott in is a serious matter.




Thanks for your honesty.
So what’s the answer to this dilemma, in your opinion?
Nobody in their right mind is going to vote for such a hopelessly incompetent government as Gillard’s mob. 
Rudd would be just as bad or worse, as he’s already proven. 
Abbot is in your opinion a dangerous bastard to put into power. A change of leadership in the conservatives wouldn't mean a change in policies. 
The Greens are an extremist party whose policies would decimate the Australian economy. 

So where does that leave us? Who gets your vote at the next election?


----------



## dutchie

bunyip said:


> So where does that leave us? Who gets your vote at the next election?




You can only vote NLP.

Both Labor and Greens have *shown* that they are hopelessly incompetent to run Australia.

Whilst it is only *assumed* that the NLP might be. You have to give them a go and if they too are incompetent then we really are in the sh#t!

But for the NLP to be given a good chance to govern properly they need to control both houses.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> ...One last comment Abbott says he will remove mining and carbon taxes............no tax thats no tax in the history of federation has ever been removed and not replaced with another tax never has and never will for one very good reason.




Just because it's never been done before doesn't mean that will happen with this one.  I don't think there has ever been such an unwanted tax implemented so deceitfully and which has such a massive potential to hurt our economy.  

Abbott could make history with this one.  I think most of us realise it will take some time as the libs will need to get legislation through both houses to change the necessary laws. That will be up to the people. Voters will need to get rid of any obstruction from greens and labor in the senate either by double dissolution or by giving the libs the green light by July 2014 when new senators take their seats.


Here are a couple of excerpts from Abbott's facebook wall:



> Spent morning with Sue + Ian Burrell at Control Systems Technology in West Syd. They need Labor's carbon + mining taxes scrapped to succeed.






> Great to visit Tamar Valley Dairy with @andrewnikolic to talk about our plan to repeal the carbon tax and our plans for a stronger Tasmania




http://www.facebook.com/TonyAbbottMP


----------



## MrBurns

This will be extremely difficult to repeal, Gillard will lock it in as best she can

Half wit Stephen Conroy waffled on the other day about how "reforming Govts" have to be prepared to take short term hits in the polls.

What he's saing is we'll do what we want regardless of having a mandate or not and we will push it down your throat and hope you give in to it.

How dictatoral can you get.


----------



## sails

MrBurns said:


> This will be extremely difficult to repeal, Gillard will lock it in as best she can
> 
> Half wit Stephen Conroy waffled on the other day about how "reforming Govts" have to be prepared to take short term hits in the polls.
> 
> What he's saing is we'll do what we want regardless of having a mandate or not and we will push it down your throat and hope you give in to it.
> 
> How dictatoral can you get.




If Gillard "locks" it in, she is doing so against the wishes of the majority.  It's not Abbott she is trying to lock out of her tax, it is voters - the people who she is paid to represent.  Shameful at best, imo.


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> If Gillard "locks" it in, she is doing so against the wishes of the majority.  It's not Abbott she is trying to lock out of her tax, it is voters - the people who she is paid to represent.  Shameful at best, imo.




Absolutely, this whole tax is against the wishes of the people but Gillard doesnt care, she is a dictator, we have a dictator as leader


----------



## noco

We are coming second last in productivity and the 'GOOSE' says every thing is OK.

Check out the link below.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...alia-second-last/story-fn59nsif-1226439881599


----------



## noco

Is this just another 'RED HERRING' looming with this inept government?

Is Gillard trying to make herself look good again to lift the polls?

Is this just another diversion from the failures of the past; the boat people, the carbon dioxide tax etc.etc.

It would appear Campbell Newman, whilst in the state by state minority on the NDIS, maybe the only one with any sensible approach to what it will all cost. 


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ut_wheres_that_8_billion_a_year_to_come_from/


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Is this just another 'RED HERRING' looming with this inept government?
> 
> Is Gillard trying to make herself look good again to lift the polls?
> 
> Is this just another diversion from the failures of the past; the boat people, the carbon dioxide tax etc.etc.
> 
> It would appear Campbell Newman, whilst in the state by state minority on the NDIS, maybe the only one with any sensible approach to what it will all cost.



Agree.  She knows it won't be her responsibility to figure out how to fund the NDIS because she'll be out of office by then.  In the meantime, she's hoping it will make her look warm and fuzzy, oh so compassionate.
Easy to spruik these schemes when you don't have to worry about how to pay for them.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Agree.  She knows it won't be her responsibility to figure out how to fund the NDIS because she'll be out of office by then.  In the meantime, she's hoping it will make her look warm and fuzzy, oh so compassionate.
> Easy to spruik these schemes when you don't have to worry about how to pay for them.




It seems to be the trend of her repetitive modus operandi and anybody with half a brain can read her like a book.

She obviously believes  she can pull the wool over the voters eyes.


----------



## Julia

So now we have the Treasurer and Deputy Prime Minister telling the nation that he derives inspiration for his public policies from a pop singer.
The Pythonesque nature of this government would be hilarious if it were not so bloody tragic.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> So now we have the Treasurer and Deputy Prime Minister telling the nation that he derives inspiration for his public policies from a pop singer.
> The Pythonesque nature of this government would be hilarious if it were not so bloody tragic.




Well they certainly didn't derive their inspiration from public conscience, fiscal mamanagement or self appraisal. The only attribute this government seems to posses, is a lack of humility.
Also the rudeness to overstay their welcome.


----------



## orr

Julia said:


> So now we have the Treasurer and Deputy Prime Minister telling the nation that he derives inspiration for his public policies from a pop singer.
> The Pythonesque nature of this government would be hilarious if it were not so bloody tragic.




Ah no, he takes note of the meaning from  the lyrics, but lets not cloud this thread with rational assessment.

This land is their land 
 this lands not your land 
Form the mining royalties 
to the corporate loyalties

This land is their land
This lands not your land
with snivelling media 
That couldn't be greedy'a
inherited privilege
Tax free for extra leverage 
The greater good optional
six Bentley's, no seven, optimal

apologies to Woody

Know your post code know your children's future, there's something tragic.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Yes the greens, through Bob Brown, have shown they are a more effective party than labor. Also they have highlighted how inept labor are at formulating effective policy.
> The labor internal polling must be coming up with horrific results, to cause the current panic attack. They must be in utter turmoil, somethings got to give, probably when parliament resumes.




That post was 11th of last month, this newspaper report shows how close to the bone it is,

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/14443374/leaked-poll-dire-for-labor/

Can't wait untill parliament resumes, I don't know what plan "B" is, but the blame Tony smear campaign ain't working. LOL
First thing I would be doing if I was Gillard, is sack that pommie adviser, he is just compounding the loser projection.
The more they blame Tony, the more they look like fools, who are not in control.
Bob Brown must be having a real laugh, after playing the goons.


----------



## bunyip

sptrawler said:


> That post was 11th of last month, this newspaper report shows how close to the bone it is,
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/14443374/leaked-poll-dire-for-labor/
> 
> Can't wait untill parliament resumes, I don't know what plan "B" is, but the blame Tony smear campaign ain't working. LOL
> First thing I would be doing if I was Gillard, is sack that pommie adviser, he is just compounding the loser projection.
> The more they blame Tony, the more they look like fools, who are not in control.
> Bob Brown must be having a real laugh, after playing the goons.




I hope they keep Gillard as leader. She’s virtually a certainty to lose the next election, whereas a change of leadership might just sway enough delusional voters into giving Labor another go in the hope they’ll lift their game.
That’s what happened when they replaced Rudd with Gillard – they got an immediate lift in voter confidence because of the delusional people who thought Gillard would make a better PM, despite the fact that she was instrumental in helping Rudd formulate his ill-considered policies that have cost us so dearly.


----------



## Calliope

Fair Work Australia is running according to plan.


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> Fair Work Australia is running according to plan.
> 
> View attachment 48373




Yes it was a superb review. The boys should be proud of themselves for doing such a fine job.


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> I hope they keep Gillard as leader. She’s virtually a certainty to lose the next election, whereas a change of leadership might just sway enough delusional voters into giving Labor another go in the hope they’ll lift their game.
> That’s what happened when they replaced Rudd with Gillard – they got an immediate lift in voter confidence because of the delusional people who thought Gillard would make a better PM, despite the fact that she was instrumental in helping Rudd formulate his ill-considered policies that have cost us so dearly.



+1.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> So now we have the Treasurer and Deputy Prime Minister telling the nation that he derives inspiration for his public policies from a pop singer.
> The Pythonesque nature of this government would be hilarious if it were not so bloody tragic.



And the leader of the Opposition is a confessed reader of "Mummy pr0n."  Woe is me, these people are human after all. Seriously, the media and the voters make a big deal of all the wrong things some times!


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> And the leader of the Opposition is a confessed reader of "Mummy pr0n."  Woe is me, these people are human after all. Seriously, the media and the voters make a big deal of all the wrong things some times!



I doubt, though, that the Opposition leader sets policy on the basis of what you describe as 'mummy pr0n'.
I don't actually know what you're referring to.  Maybe enlighten us?

And it's not the voters who are making something of Mr Swan's predilections.  It was the fundamental thrust of his speech delivered as the John Button lecture.  He even put up a Utube video showing him pawing through his old LPs of the pop singer he so admires.


----------



## waza1960

It appears to me that Swan raving about Springsteen ,rubbishing the miners/Gillard going on holidays/Gillard pushing through with the Disability scheme without any idea of where the  money is coming from is just their attempt to leave some sort of legacy as they know that their time is up ( a matter of weeks I'm guessing).




> Originally Posted by bunyip
> 
> I hope they keep Gillard as leader. She’s virtually a certainty to lose the next election, whereas a change of leadership might just sway enough delusional voters into giving Labor another go in the hope they’ll lift their game.
> That’s what happened when they replaced Rudd with Gillard – they got an immediate lift in voter confidence because of the delusional people who thought Gillard would make a better PM, despite the fact that she was instrumental in helping Rudd formulate his ill-considered policies that have cost us so dearly.
> +1.



+2 but surely people are not that dumb


----------



## Ves

Julia - it won't let me reply to you with quotes.  For some reason.


Link   http://www.news.com.au/national/abb...de-stripped-bare/story-fndo4eg9-1226441975367


I think you're over-analysing Swan's use of Bruce Springsteen.  But I'm not getting into a debate about that - because it's silly.  The public seem to jump on any politician who shares anything from his personal life... whether seriously or in jest.  

Is there a link of this speech where he apparently uses his youtube video as part of the content?  I think it would be pretty amusing if it was true.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> I think you're over-analysing Swan's use of Bruce Springsteen.  But I'm not getting into a debate about that - because it's silly.  The public seem to jump on any politician who shares anything from his personal life... whether seriously or in jest.



Disagree.  I'm not the one making something of it.  He appeared on '7.30' discussing his passion for Springsteen and how he had helped him formulate policy.



> Is there a link of this speech where he apparently uses his youtube video as part of the content?



Certainly.  All you had to do was Google "Wayne Swan - utube video discussing his Springsteen collection".
Here is the link to the '7.30' interview.  I suggest you watch the video which includes the aforementioned Utube footage.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3558630.htm



> I think it would be pretty amusing if it was true.




Well, you can see it is absolutely true. Perhaps you might now concede I'm justified in my scorn.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> Julia - it won't let me reply to you with quotes.  For some reason.
> 
> 
> Link   http://www.news.com.au/national/abb...de-stripped-bare/story-fndo4eg9-1226441975367



Happy to help with a quote from the so called story:


> OPPOSITION Leader Tony Abbott says he has read 50 Shades of Grey. But he prefers Bride Stripped Bare.
> 
> Mr Abbott told the Grill Team on TripleM radio in Sydney that he had been prompted to read the book because his daughters had been reading it.
> 
> Mr Abbott was responding to a series of rapid-fire questions from the breakfast radio show pertaining to his masculinity.
> 
> He was answering with flying colours, revealing he does not eat salad as a main course, can drive a manual car, does not own a cat, does not rub sunscreen on other men and does love hot chicken vindaloo.




So he was responding to a bit of fluff interview on TripleM, hardly the intellectual hub of Australia.
I'd also take an interest in what my daughters were reading.  What on earth is wrong with that?
He's not exactly then deciding to set Liberal policy on the basis of what some middle aged woman discovers about her sexuality.  For god's sake, Ves.  If you are seriously trying to compare the content of Swan's John Button Lecture, a prestigious event attended by Australia's top people, with an off the cuff response to a trivial question about some currently popular bit of memoir or fiction or whatever, you need to have a rethink.


----------



## Ves

Do you seriously think Swanny uses Springsteen lyrics to formulate policy?


----------



## Ves

It's quite simple really... he is drawing parallels to popular culture to make his policies more fathomable to those of his generation (the same people who grew up with that era of rock music, I mean).  There's a big difference between that and basing his policies on the lyrics of said rock artist. His comment about it 'helping him formulate policy' isn't supposed to be taken literally - it's a throwaway phrase. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.  It's just a publicity campaign - and it has clearly got the attention it was meant to, since everyone is talking about it.  Aren't they on parliamentary break?  Probably just giving the media something to write about.  I don't see what the big deal is.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> Happy to help with a quote from the so called story:
> 
> 
> So he was responding to a bit of fluff interview on TripleM, hardly the intellectual hub of Australia.
> I'd also take an interest in what my daughters were reading.  What on earth is wrong with that?
> He's not exactly then deciding to set Liberal policy on the basis of what some middle aged woman discovers about her sexuality.  For god's sake, Ves.  If you are seriously trying to compare the content of Swan's John Button Lecture, a prestigious event attended by Australia's top people, with an off the cuff response to a trivial question about some currently popular bit of memoir or fiction or whatever, you need to have a rethink.



Read my post again... I only really said it made him human  (much like our old mate Swanny).  Didn't really post an opinion on either because quite frankly I have no problem with either act.  I think it's great that they are showing some of their personal lives.  Much better than the inhumane robots they usually front up with.


----------



## sptrawler

I love how Bill Shorten spits the dummy, when told his pie will be soft, if microwaved. 
Just shows how in touch he is with the rank and file, most of their pies are soft from a "Jiffy truck" what a wan#er.
Get a life Bill, you are a "dick" , grow a set of balls and stand up to Julia


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Just because it's never been done before doesn't mean that will happen with this one.  I don't think there has ever been such an unwanted tax implemented so deceitfully and which has such a massive potential to hurt our economy.
> 
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/TonyAbbottMP





Abbotts position is more political than substance, its a proven election winner to rave about big bad taxes and judging by the contributions to this thread it works perfectly.

The Australian economy has had major utility price rises of more than 50% outside of the carbon tax ....nothing said by Abbott Australia hasn't imploded.

But I know Abbott's just wonderful all those photo opportunities proves it.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> Thanks for your honesty.
> So what’s the answer to this dilemma, in your opinion?
> Nobody in their right mind is going to vote for such a hopelessly incompetent government as Gillard’s mob.
> Rudd would be just as bad or worse, as he’s already proven.
> Abbot is in your opinion a dangerous bastard to put into power. A change of leadership in the conservatives wouldn't mean a change in policies.
> The Greens are an extremist party whose policies would decimate the Australian economy.
> 
> So where does that leave us? Who gets your vote at the next election?





Its really simple....its all just politics which means its no place to go looking for a meaningful moral compass.

Australia will get Abbott, I will get endless threads started about what a shameful PM / government we have, Labor will rebuild, Abbott may blunder with non work choices mark II (payback to the right for winning by 1 vote) and Malcolm will become PM.


----------



## bunyip

waza1960 said:


> +2 but surely people are not that dumb




I wouldn’t bet on it – there were a hell of a lot of dumb people last time who, after having decided to vote Rudd & Co out of office, suddenly changed their minds and decided that Labor were worth another go under their new leader, Gillard. 
Many working class people still have the underlying delusion that Labor is the party that looks after the workers. No doubt this delusion stems from the fact that Labor had its origins in the shearers strike in QLD in the late 1800’s, resulting in a meeting under a tree in Barcaldine in central western Queensland.  A new political party was spawned at that meeting, its aim being to look after the interests of working people. 
The tree has now been immortalized as ‘the tree of knowledge – birthplace of the Australian Labor Party’.

Labor *did* look after workers in its early stages. But over the years the party has lost its way, not least because it’s been taken over by various union stooges who are stupid enough to think that the way to look after the workers is to rip money out of business people.
Modern day working people have become more proficient at seeing through the blatant scam that Labor is there to look after workers’ interests. Yet many of them would still like to believe that Labor is the workers party, if if only there was a hint that it might be true. That hint might just be provided by the likes of  former ACTU stooge Bill Shorten – he’s still seen as ‘a good bloke’ by many workers, and it’s possible he could reignite the fallacy that Labor is the party for working people.
After seeing the sudden turnaround in voter sentiment after Gillard replaced Rudd, nothing would surprise me if there was another ALP leadership change.

The ‘tree of knowledge’ is still there in the main street of Barcaldine, but now it’s a dead stump as a result of being poisoned some years ago.
 I’ll be driving through Barcaldine in the next few days. They have a modern public toilet block there, but such is my contempt for the Australian Labor Party that I just might relieve myself against the ‘tree of knowledge instead’.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge_(Australia)


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Abbotts position is more political than substance, its a proven election winner to rave about big bad taxes and judging by the contributions to this thread it works perfectly.
> 
> The Australian economy has had major utility price rises of more than 50% outside of the carbon tax ....nothing said by Abbott Australia hasn't imploded.
> 
> But I know Abbott's just wonderful all those photo opportunities proves it.




With great respect IFocus, I would say there is more to Abbott raving on about the big new taxes.

The majority of voters do not like Prime Ministers who lie, they do not like the 30 or 40 hare brain schemes that have failed and cost billions of dollars, they do not like the way Gillard and Swan are hounding big business who employe thousands of workers, they do not like the way the Gillard Government has wasted billions of dollars on sweetners just to stay in office and most of that sweetner has been put into the pokies.

Unemployment is rising in Australia while it is becoming lower in the USA. Our productivity is second lowest out of 52 developed countries.  Hundreds of business are going broke and hundreds of workers are being laid off every week.

Our border protection has been shot to pieces and Gillard has broken the record by allowing  the most number of illegal immigrants entering the country in one month. Bowen was allowing for 400 per month and some 1600 have entered Australia in July 2012 alone.

Another factor is the influence of the Greens. Gillard has given into every piece of legislation put foward by the Greens just to stay in power. The Greens were  influential in causing Gillard to lie about the Carbon dioxide tax. Without the Greens, we would now be free of this big new tax, a tax that has and will continue to be passed on to you and me in one form or another and it will be exploited by some unscrupulous business. If the Labor had wanted to increase taxes,  it have been better to have increased the GST to 12.5% where buyers would know exactly what tax they would be paying.  

So, I think you would have to agree Abbott's raving on about big new taxes is only a very small % attributed to the poor polling of Labor's primary vote.


----------



## DB008

From ABC.net

*Australia leading global charge on mining returns*



> Resource nationalism is the term being used to describe governments wanting a greater return from mining companies – by way of taxes, royalties or other means - in exchange for their right to mine.
> 
> Leading the charge on resource nationalism, according to the global mining industry, is resource-rich Australia.
> 
> And the industry blames the Australian Government for encouraging the trend.
> 
> According to Ernst and Young's most recent survey of global mining, resource nationalism is regarded as the number one risk for the resources sector in 2012.
> 
> "You don't own the minerals," Prime Minister Julia Gillard told miners at the Minerals Council of Australia annual dinner in May.
> 
> "I don't own the minerals, governments only sell you the right to mine the resource. A resource we hold in trust for a sovereign people. They own it and they deserve their share."
> 
> One mining executive told the Australian Financial Review the mining executives were "dumbstruck" by Ms Gillard's comments.
> 
> "She told us this is Australia and it has a Labor government, that it is a party of redistribution, so suck it up," the executive said.
> 
> There is also concern that Australia is exporting Labor's redistribution ideology on natural resources to other countries.
> 
> A common response by the mining industry to the introduction of the Mineral Resources Rent Tax (MRRT) was that companies would leave Australia to invest in other countries especially in Africa, like Ghana, Guinea, South Africa and Liberia.
> 
> But now Africa is taking lessons from Australia in what is called "mining governance".



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-04/australia-leads-global-charge-on-mining-returns/4176752


----------



## joea

bunyip said:


> I wouldn’t bet on it – there were a hell of a lot of dumb people last time who, after having decided to vote Rudd & Co out of office, suddenly changed their minds and decided that Labor were worth another go under their new leader, Gillard.
> 
> [/url]




Well I cannot remember any of the c**p about Gillard  being put forward by the media prior to and during 
the  "back stabbing of Rudd". 
One would assume the media had the opportunity to find it.
Or is it all about the Craig Thompson fiasco, that set the media off on a witch hunt??
I cannot remember any media campaigns against Rudd, because he had no policy's to campaign with.
It was mentioned once at  5.30am on election day 2007 by David Speers on sky.
No what is was about, "Howard out"(getting boring), "Labor in" (see if they stuff up)??

Well no, it's all about "bad news sells".
When does "good news sell in Australia"??


What most of the posters on this forum(and any other for that matter), do not realize is that the media
is playing "mind games with you".
That what sells papers and gets TV ratings up.
And what do we watch between the "crap", bloody commercials???

Gillad is "CORRECT". WHY PRINT CRAP???
Well Julia, "crap" sells, and at the moment you are in the "spotlight"!!

If the coalition get into government, the shoe will be on the other foot, and the witch hunt will be through the ranks of the coalition.
When did we see an article on "Clive Palmer makes 200 million profit and spends 10 million on staff".
Well there was one!!
When was there an article that continued to run for days on Twiggy Forrest and the employment he created??

They day the media apply some "integrity" to their stories, then that's the day Australia will start to be 
a better place!!!!!
Well I feel better now! Will go start my day!!

joea


----------



## IFocus

noco said:


> With great respect IFocus, I would say there is more to Abbott raving on about the big new taxes.




If there is its a secret 



> The majority of voters do not like Prime Ministers who lie




Gillard broke a commitment / promise please look up the definition of the word lie, for a group of spelling grammar junkies you lot take the cake for swallowing Abbott's lying proposition. 





> Unemployment is rising in Australia while it is becoming lower in the USA.




You want the USA unemployment position? Are you praising Obama?




> Another factor is the influence of the Greens. Gillard has given into every piece of legislation put foward by the Greens just to stay in power.




Labor need the greens to pass legislation not to stay in power



> The Greens were  influential in causing Gillard to lie about the Carbon dioxide tax.




Please look up the meaning of lie.




> Without the Greens, we would now be free of this big new tax, a tax that has and will continue to be passed on to you and me in one form or another and it will be exploited by some unscrupulous business. If the Labor had wanted to increase taxes,  it have been better to have increased the GST to 12.5% where buyers would know exactly what tax they would be paying.




As DR has pointed out the GST needs its base broadening before any increases as its current form has severe structural problems. Cannot see this being addressed for a generation or two as politic suicide for either side.



> So, I think you would have to agree Abbott's raving on about big new taxes is only a very small % attributed to the poor polling of Labor's primary vote.




I think this group of Labor politicians are politically inept to let Abbott run the conversation such has he done on 1/2 truths and outright fraudulent claims and promisers.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Please look up the meaning of lie.




This is what will stick to voters minds come election time.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> This is what will stick to voters minds come election time.






And after a week of hearing that on the TV just days before the election, Gillard revealed this:



> In an election-eve interview with The Australian, *the Prime Minister revealed she would view victory tomorrow as a mandate for a carbon price,* provided the community was ready for this step.




That makes the video above an even bigger lie, imo.  It would seem she had no intention of keeping her election commitment to the people of no carbon tax.  She was going to price carbon anyway if she became PM.  It seems the greens only gave her control of both houses to pass HER unwanted tax.

Now Abbott needs control of both houses to unravel the damage she has done, imo.


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> This is what will stick to voters minds come election time.




You do realise that that clip of Gillard is cut off mid-sentence right? 

Absolutely hilarious that people are still posting something that has been taken completely out of context.


----------



## Ves

Actually I am fairly sure that the day before the election she said in an interview that if elected she aspired to legislating a fixed priced mechanism or a carbon reduction scheme.  Hadn't this been Labour Policy since  2007, can someone tell me where my misunderstanding on this issue is?


----------



## Miss Hale

sptrawler said:


> I love how Bill Shorten spits the dummy, when told his pie will be soft, if microwaved.
> Just shows how in touch he is with the rank and file, most of their pies are soft from a "Jiffy truck" what a wan#er.
> Get a life Bill, you are a "dick" , grow a set of balls and stand up to Julia




Interesting the way this was treated on 'Insiders' this morning, more or less as a joke at the end of the show.  Imagine if Tony Abbott had done something like this, it would be headine news and ther would be claims that he is unfit to be PM 

I was really surprised with the way Shorten reacted though.  Regardless of the fact that he was just popping in to get a pie for his son before a footy match, being a politician unfortunately means you can be approached at any time by members of the public who wish to discuss or comment on political matters, it's just part of the job.  If he was in a hurry and really didn't have time to engage in political debate he could have still behaved much more graciously.


----------



## sails

Ves said:


> Actually I am fairly sure that the day before the election she said in an interview that if elected she aspired to legislating a fixed priced mechanism or a carbon reduction scheme.  Hadn't this been Labour Policy since  2007, can someone tell me where my misunderstanding on this issue is?




Ves - if that is so, then please explain to me why Gillard AND Swan stated NO CARBON TAX repeatedly days before the election if they intended to price carbon by any mechanism and did not mean a word they said?  Gillard's no carbon tax ads gave the impression they were shelving their carbon pricing policies - at least for this term.

Many people don't read the fine print on political sites.  They take the publicised ads to represent each party's major policies.  I wonder if Gillard would have even got 72 seats if she had been honest about her plans to price carbon before the election instead of broadcasting something she clearly didn't mean at all?

Surely, it's not that hard to see what you are missing?  The majority of voters can see it very clearly...


----------



## drsmith

Ves said:


> You do realise that that clip of Gillard is cut off mid-sentence right?
> 
> Absolutely hilarious that people are still posting something that has been taken completely out of context.



No carbon tax under a government I lead and its introduction being described as hysterical nonsense by Wayne Swan.

The government's context was clearly one it did not want the electorate at large to understand prior to the election.


----------



## moXJO

Ves said:


> You do realise that that clip of Gillard is cut off mid-sentence right?
> 
> Absolutely hilarious that people are still posting something that has been taken completely out of context.




Which part of "no carbon tax" was out of context. She then back peddled once it came in with regards to her above speech.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Abbotts position is more political than substance, its a proven election winner to rave about big bad taxes and judging by the contributions to this thread it works perfectly.
> 
> The Australian economy has had major utility price rises of more than 50% outside of the carbon tax ....nothing said by Abbott Australia hasn't imploded.
> 
> But I know Abbott's just wonderful all those photo opportunities proves it.




I am having a very hard time looking at Abbott as a credible leader.


----------



## Ves

sails said:


> Ves - if that is so, then please explain to me why Gillard AND Swan stated NO CARBON TAX repeatedly days before the election if they intended to price carbon by any mechanism and did not mean a word they said?  Gillard's no carbon tax ads gave the impression they were shelving their carbon pricing policies - at least for this term.
> 
> Many people don't read the fine print on political sites.  They take the publicised ads to represent each party's major policies.  I wonder if Gillard would have even got 72 seats if she had been honest about her plans to price carbon before the election instead of broadcasting something she clearly didn't mean at all?
> 
> Surely, it's not that hard to see what you are missing?  The majority of voters can see it very clearly...



I found this article (day before the election) titled "Julia Gillard's Carbon Price Promise"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...on-price-promise/story-fn59niix-1225907522983

She alludes to the fact in this interview that she will be using a fixed price mechanism (as distinct from a tax). I think both parties in the year's leading up to this have alluding to the fact that they would have similar ideas (but different implementation).  I find it hard to see how this came as such a big surprise for anyone who follows politics and could be considered an "informed voter."

The biggest misnomer here in that interview is the issue of timing of its implementation (which is clearly ahead of schedule).

I guess the question is (eternally) - should people take more responsibility for their choices (also should the media's presentation do the same)?  I think in this case the answers were there for astute voters.  It also proves that democracy falls down in the fact that people do not think for themselves and are easily mislead.


----------



## drsmith

Ves said:


> I found this article (day before the election) titled "Julia Gillard's Carbon Price Promise"
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...on-price-promise/story-fn59niix-1225907522983






> *While any carbon price would not be triggered until after the 2013 election,* Ms Gillard would have two potential legislative partners next term - the Coalition or the Greens. She would legislate the carbon price next term if sufficient consensus existed.




A problem for serial liars is the more they twist and turn, the deeper is the hole they dig for themselves.

The electorate will slaughter Labor at the next election on this point alone.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> I am having a very hard time looking at Abbott as a credible leader.



I have trouble seeing the Coalition as a credible alternative at the present time, but, as always, it's a choice between the alternatives on the table.

Hopefully there will be some visible improve as we move closer to the election.


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> I have trouble seeing the Coalition as a credible alternative at the present time, but, as always, it's a choice between the alternatives on the table.
> 
> Hopefully there will be some visible improve as we move closer to the election.




I am hoping the team behind them will be able to make the inroads to change. I don't want Abbott being some kind of factional dictator style PM as Rudd or Gillard have been. Abbott still leaves a very bitter taste.
Libs policy on small business has my vote though. That and the lack of union interference in policy.


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> A problem for serial liars is the more they twist and turn, the deeper is the hole they dig for themselves.
> 
> The electorate will slaughter Labor at the next election on this point alone.



Why is timing so important, though?  The policy (of some sort) was inevitable under both parties IMO, it is just that Labour were the one to put it into action.  I believe the Liberal party would have done the same, and if this happened, it would be Labour slamming it.   Unfortunately this is the nature of oppositional political systems, it isn't so much about developing policy, but more about developing policy that has the least likelihood of being slammed by the opposition's word games.


----------



## drsmith

The Coalition would not have introduced a carbon tax in this term had it won the 2010 election. 

To suggest otherwise is fantasy, or hysterical nonsense, to use Wayne Swan's words.


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> The Coalition would not have introduced a carbon tax in this term had it won the 2010 election.
> 
> To suggest otherwise is fantasy.



Probably correct - I should preface my previous comment with that.   Certainly becomes more probable in a hypothetical post-2013 term though.  But we will never know now.


----------



## Calliope

moXJO said:


> I am hoping the team behind them will be able to make the inroads to change. I don't want Abbott being some kind of factional dictator style PM as Rudd or Gillard have been. Abbott still leaves a very bitter taste.
> Libs policy on small business has my vote though. That and the lack of union interference in policy.




Abbott's biggest problem is how to handle Fair Work Australia which is controlled by the unions. Less than 20% of the workforce belong to unions. In the private sector, union density barely reaches double figures, and yet they control the Labor government, and can make or break a PM. The future doesn't look good for the private sector or small business

The union movement poured millions of dollars into removing Howard and abolishing Work Choices and even with their limited membership they run Industrial Relations policies. As is being demonstrated in Queensland the don't take kindly to governments who support business enterprise, or efficiency in the Public Service.

IR policy will be the litmus test for Abbott, and on this issue he is running scared - with no answers.


----------



## drsmith

Ves said:


> Probably correct - I should preface my previous comment with that.   Certainly becomes more probable in a hypothetical post-2013 term though.  But we will never know now.



What happens post-2013 depends on a number of factors, but at this stage I would be backing an Abbott led coalition trying to repeal it. Regardless of whether or not a carbon price floats long term, the electorate is left with the bitter taste of Labor's words during the 2010 election campaign and its subsequent actions. That's a taste the electorate will be very keen to remove when it gets a chance at the polls.

In comparing how Howard intorduced the GST to how Gillard introduced the carbon tax, the bottom line is the GST was a risk for Howard while the carbon tax will be suicide for Gillard.

One difference is that Howard took the GST to an election.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> IR policy will be the litmus test for Abbott, and on this issue he is running scared - with no answers.



The Coalition is setting itself up to have to provide answers in a lot of policy areas as we move closer to the election.

Hopefully, those answers will be a significant improvement on being no Bill Gates.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> ...The difference is that Howard took the GST to an election.




And he didn't promise no GST and then bring it in against the will of the people (as Gillard defied opinion polls at the time).  Clearly, Gillard and Swan saw the need to lie to the electorate about their real intentions to price carbon just prior to the election as they were scared of not getting enough votes.  Surely, that is a slap in the face to democracy which ever way one looks at it?

Newspoll - 21-23 Oct 2011 (two weeks prior to Gillard legislating her unwanted tax in early November 2011) - *59% of voters were AGAINST*.  Only 32% in favour and the rest undecided.

http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/111006 Carbon Price.pdf


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> Libs policy on small business has my vote though. That and the lack of union interference in policy.



+1.  Offset, sadly, by his ridiculous maternity leave scheme.



Ves said:


> Why is timing so important, though?  The policy (of some sort) was inevitable under both parties IMO, it is just that Labour were the one to put it into action.  I believe the Liberal party would have done the same, and if this happened, it would be Labour slamming it.



You are ignoring a fundamental point which is that when the Libs floated the notion of any sort of carbon abatement scheme it was at the time when the world focus on so called anthropogenic climate change was at its zenith.  Then came Copenhagen and it all fell in a heap.  The interest by governments and people since then has continued to slide, so that - as I'm quite sure you know - Australia has introduced a carbon tax at a ridiculously high level in an global atmosphere of complete rejection of any sort of global scheme.  Australia is thus, as you will also well know, thus considerably disadvantaged in competitive terms.

If you can't see why this makes people angry, Ves, there's little point in any of us trying to further explain it to you.

If the Libs take office and are able to repeal the carbon tax, I'll be unsurprised if they at the same time drop their 'direct action' policy on AGW.  I hope they do.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> +1.  Offset, sadly, by his ridiculous maternity leave scheme.
> 
> 
> .




Agree he also goes out of the way to rabidly stand behind schemes leaving him no wriggle room. 
You are left wondering what effect he will have over the economy. It's a horrible choice come election time


----------



## DB008

Ves said:


> You do realise that that clip of Gillard is cut off mid-sentence right?
> 
> Absolutely hilarious that people are still posting something that has been taken completely out of context.




Vespuria - you should also know that when it comes to politics, it doesn't matter if it's cut off mid-sentence, 1/4 sentence, 3/4 sentence - it's what she said on National TV, at that particular moment in time, that will stick in the minds of the general public come election time. 
Average Joe doesn't care about this or that policy. They watch Channel 7/9 news, Desperate Housewives/The Block, Home & Away and see Gillard tell a lie.

*Edit*
A good example of this was the GST 'Cake Question'


----------



## sptrawler

Unfortunately for Ms Gillard, I think the problem has gone past the carbon tax issue. I think the public is genuinely fed up with her school maam manner and the supercillious attitude. This also supports their belief that the labor party in general are guttless and hiding behind her.
Australians in general don't like bullies and their cronies telling everyone what to do. 
The one thing this government has done is unite the country to fight the common enemy, problem is it is them.


----------



## Ves

DB008 said:


> Vespuria - you should also know that when it comes to politics, it doesn't matter if it's cut off mid-sentence, 1/4 sentence, 3/4 sentence - it's what she said on National TV, at that particular moment in time, that will stick in the minds of the general public come election time.
> Average Joe doesn't care about this or that policy. They watch Channel 7/9 news, Desperate Housewives/The Block, Home & Away and see Gillard tell a lie.
> 
> *Edit*
> A good example of this was the GST 'Cake Question'



Some of the psychological studies of this kind of thing are pretty fascinating.  That's probably where my interest in politics lies... the core of perception and how different people read different things into it all. The shadows on Plato's cave live on.


----------



## noco

Where is Julia Gillard this week

 They say she has taken a well earned break.

Is it not a bit unusual for a Prime Minister to have a holiday mid year?

Maybe it is too hot in the kitchen.


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> Where is Julia Gillard this week
> 
> They say she has taken a well earned break.
> 
> Is it not a bit unusual for a Prime Minister to have a holiday mid year?
> 
> Maybe it is too hot in the kitchen.




The Olympics have taken centre stage but she will be back in the firing line soon, especially with all the info about her past starting to surface.
Labor have real problems, they need to replace her without looking like complete fools, good luck with that.


----------



## Surly

Any policy the Libs put forward at this point in time is going to be tempered with the same sentences as the when the Hawke/Keating government ended.

"We really won't how or if this can be costed until we have a chance to see the real state of things after we are eleceted."

Given the grasp the ALP do not appear to have on any manner of accounting or accountability this will be completely believable.

cheers
Surly


----------



## joea

noco said:


> Where is Julia Gillard this week
> 
> They say she has taken a well earned break.
> 
> Is it not a bit unusual for a Prime Minister to have a holiday mid year?
> 
> Maybe it is too hot in the kitchen.




I think she is up in Port Douglas. I am 12 klms away, so it might my chance to knobble her.
She is trying to get known in Qld. lol.
joea


----------



## DB008

Another Gillard joke in the inbox




> Prime Minister Gillard walks into the Commonwealth Bank of Australia to cash a cheque.
> 
> As she approaches the cashier she says "Good morning, would you please cash this cheque for me"?
> 
> Cashier: "It would be my pleasure Miss. Could you lease show me your ID?"
> 
> Gillard: "Truthfully, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Prime Minister Julia Gillard, the Prime Minister of Australia !!!"
> 
> Cashier: "Yes Miss, I know who you are, but with all the regulations, monitoring, of the banks because of impostors and forgers, etc...I must insist on seeing ID."
> 
> Gillard: "Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am, and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."
> 
> Cashier: "I am sorry Prime Minister, but these are the bank rules and I must follow them."
> 
> Gillard: "I am urging you please, to cash this cheque."
> 
> Cashier: "Look Prime Minister this is what we can do: One day Adam Scott came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Adam Scott he pulled out his putting iron and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Adam Scott and cashed his cheque.
> Another time, Pat Rafter came n without ID. He pulled out his tennis racquet and  made a fabulous shot where the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that spectacular shot we cashed his cheque..
> So, Prime Minister, what can you do to prove that it is you, and only you, as the Prime Minister of Australia?"
> 
> Gillard stood there thinking, and thinking and finally says: "Honestly, there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing I'm good at."
> 
> Cashier: "Will that be large or small notes, Prime Minister?"


----------



## sails

It seems  Gillard's taxes are the reason investment is going elsewhere (bold is mine):



> THE flow and size of Chinese investments in the Australian resources sector are tapering off as Canada and Africa prove more attractive cash destinations.



and



> ...the hurdle was not only the Foreign Investment Review Board, but also the high costs of doing business in Australia *and what the Chinese see as the unpredictability of our legislation, with investors surprised by the carbon tax and the mining tax*.
> 
> "It comes down to whether we are a country that's easy to do business with. Canada and much of Africa are being very proactive," she said. The difficulty of using foreign labour and the tough environmental standards in Australia deterred investors.




Read more from the Australian: *Chinese 'diverting mining cash to Canada, Africa'*


----------



## springhill

sails said:


> It seems  Gillard's taxes are the reason investment is going elsewhere (bold is mine):
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> Read more from the Australian: *Chinese 'diverting mining cash to Canada, Africa'*




Absolutely, I see Canadian coal stocks as a far better investment prospect than Aussie coal stocks.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> I have trouble seeing the Coalition as a credible alternative at the present time, but, as always, it's a choice between the alternatives on the table.
> 
> *Hopefully there will be some visible improve as we move closer to the election.*





Wont happen like costings as the Coalition are so far in front poll wise you wont see any thing meaningful other than mother hood statements as they canter to a drovers dog election.

One really interesting point is will Abbott debate, normally the opposition pursue the PM for as many debates as possible I wonder if Abbott will duck this as its his weak hand with his problem around the really tricky questions.


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> It seems  Gillard's taxes are the reason investment is going elsewhere (bold is mine):
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> Read more from the Australian: *Chinese 'diverting mining cash to Canada, Africa'*





Excuse me but I forget what the future PM said about  investment scrutiny and state owned enterprises?


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Wont happen like costings as the Coalition are so far in front poll wise you wont see any thing meaningful other than mother hood statements as they canter to a drovers dog election.
> 
> One really interesting point is will Abbott debate, normally the opposition pursue the PM for as many debates as possible I wonder if Abbott will duck this as its his weak hand with his problem around the really tricky questions.




I agree with you, Abbott can't go into a debate situation with Gillard.
His problem is he wears his heart on his sleeve, and says it as he sees it.
Gilllard on the other hand will say whatever is required to achieve the desired outcome.
The only thing in his favour is everyone is sick of labor spin.
At the end of the day all we can hope for, is the media give them both the same opportunity.  

I feel Abbott debating Gillard would be like taking a lamb to slaughter. Her own party are $hit scared of throwing her out. I wouldn't mind having her represent me in a law case. Every time i see her I think I'm going to get the cuts. LOL


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Gilllard on the other hand will say whatever is required to achieve the desired outcome.




So we know the outcome, to stay in government.!!
"say whatever". ... Now would that be, "lie to the Australian voter and tax them to death".??

Gingeralla just improved Labor polls by 3% in the Australian. poll(paper).

Abbott may have to debate at some time, however Gingeralla's style of debating does nothing for me
with her "dictatorial" style.(I am PM so what I say is right).

If the "middle class" of Australia does not want to be the "champions" of the centrelink followers, then we have an option to vote Labor out. Do not worry about who will be the alternative government.
My 5 year old grandson can tell me that!!!
Just go about it as "one step at a time".

The voters are starting to worry me on this forum, as it appears Gillard's has confused you !
Do you want Labor to stay, or do you want Gillard to go.
The answer to those questions, is the first step. If it is "yes & yes", then we have a problem!!!
Do not confuse yourself with who will be the alternative government. Because it will not change a thing.
joea


----------



## joea

oops!!.... 5%
joea


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> ... I wouldn't mind having her represent me in a law case...





If she represented a law case like she represents voters,  it would likely be a disaster.... 




joea said:


> oops!!.... 5%
> joea





Interesting - wasn't she out of the spotlight this week?  Could explain the rise...


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Wont happen like costings as the Coalition are so far in front poll wise you wont see any thing meaningful other than mother hood statements as they canter to a drovers dog election.



That speaks volumes about the current government. 



IFocus said:


> One really interesting point is will Abbott debate, normally the opposition pursue the PM for as many debates as possible I wonder if Abbott will duck this as its his weak hand with his problem around the really tricky questions.



Labor can call an election whenever it likes.


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> oops!!.... 5%
> joea



Normal transmissions from Labor will resume soon enough.

Essential media shows no meaningful change.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> Interesting - wasn't she out of the spotlight this week?  Could explain the rise...




Exactly my thoughts


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard sensing the stench to come from rising electricity bills due to the carbon tax has gone on the attack. Never mind that much of the increases to which she refers were largely under state Labor administrations.

She has however gone further, suggesting that electricity utilities cut costs by compromising on the reliability of supply.

She would be wise to have a quiet chat with Eric Ripper.


----------



## Ijustnewit

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard sensing the stench to come from rising electricity bills due to the carbon tax has gone on the attack. Never mind that much of the increases to which she refers were largely under state Labor administrations.
> 
> She has however gone further, suggesting that electricity utilities cut costs by compromising on the reliability of supply.
> 
> She would be wise to have a quiet chat with Eric Ripper.




Have been reading the News about this today. Her hide and reasoning just leaves me frustrated and gob smacked .
To introduce a Tax that will put power supply bills up and then turn around and blame the Electricity Companies just show's how childish this woman is.


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> Normal transmissions from Labor will resume soon enough.
> 
> Essential media shows no meaningful change.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport




Thanks drsmith, I have another bookmark.
joea


----------



## Julia

Ijustnewit said:


> Have been reading the News about this today. Her hide and reasoning just leaves me frustrated and gob smacked .
> To introduce a Tax that will put power supply bills up and then turn around and blame the Electricity Companies just show's how childish this woman is.



I doubt the electorate will be fooled by her attempt to divert blame from the carbon tax.
This disingenuous sort of attack on the States will, imo, just further attract derision toward Ms Gillard.

It seems some adviser to the government have instructed them to go on the attack in the hope of moving public attention to targets other than themselves.  First it was the big miners, now the States.


----------



## Glen48

Looks like Julia could get another term when and for how long will depend on the Court:
I would like to invite you to a very special event. An event that reveals the sordid details behind the allegations surrounding Julia Gillard, Bruce Wilson, and Ralph Blewitt - and how the government tried to stifle free speech and suppress this story.

Late last year, Michael Smith, the host of Radio 2UE’s afternoon show, was set to go on air with an _explosive_ story. He had the detailed facts behind allegations of Julia Gillard’s involvement in corrupt activities by her then partner Bruce Wilson and his accomplice Ralph Blewitt. Activities that make Craig Thompson look like a saint in comparison.

It was cleared by lawyers, by producers. The facts were all confirmed.

10 minutes before he was to go to air, the story was pulled and Michael Smith lost his job.

That very day, The Australian newspaper reported similar allegations. Julia Gillard_herself_ phoned News Limited CEO John Hartigan, and demanded that the story was retracted, and that “News Ltd give her an undertaking that it would never again report in any way on websites or in its newspapers on this matter.” Senior Journalist Glen Milne was sacked, and Andrew Bolt ordered to never speak of this again.
The story was buried.

But the truth can’t stay buried forever. Free Speech can’t be suppressed. Two weeks ago, Mike Smith had an interview with Alan Jones and spelled out in great detail not only what he learned – but the attempts by the government to silence it. A few days later Ralph Blewitt came forward and said he’d be willing to testify in a court of law – if granted immunity.

*THIS IS THE STORY THE GOVERNMENT TRIED TO KILL.

THIS IS A STORY THAT ALL AUSTRALIANS MUST KNOW.  *

That’s why the Australian Taxpayers’ Alliance has just arranged for Mike Smith to make a special address in Sydney detailing in full the truth behind this case – and the shameful attempts by the government to stifle any reporting on it.

This is our chance to hear from Michael Smith himself - and learn all the facts. 

*Mick, this is an event no Australian can afford to miss. *

If you are in Sydney, or able to make it to Sydney on Monday the 20[SUP]th[/SUP], I hope you will be able to join Michael Smith for this very special event. 

Time: 6:30pm for 7:00pm start
Date: Monday, 20 August
Place: Lyceum Theatre, Wesley Centre
Address: 220 Pitt Street Sydney
Cost: $15
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/events/387163431350071/
RSVP: Click HERE to RSVP online (or email events@taxpayers.org.au to pay by cheque or direct debit)

*Tickets will be sure to sell out fast, so reserve your seat now!  *If you are unable to make it, please forward this to your family, your friends, and any other contacts you have, share it on facebook: 




, on Twitter 



 and any other way you can! 

I look forward to seeing you there.






Timothy Andrews
Executive Director
Australian Taxpayers’ Alliance

*PS: Click here to reserve your seat to hear Michael Smith on the allegations surrounding Julia Gillard, Bruce Wilson, and Ralph Blewitt - and how the government tried to stifle free speech and suppress this story.*


----------



## noco

This is left wing socialist element working at it's best.

Keep up the propaganda but suppress the media criticism.

Gillard still works in the shadow of the Fabian society IMOH.

It may have worked in Russia, China and Cuba but it is not going to be accepted in Australia.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-on-freedom-wars/story-e6frg74x-1226445129128


----------



## drsmith

Spin, spin, twist and twirl,

Julia's again a very naughty girl.



> The Premier Colin Barnett has accused Ms Gillard of taking concerns raised by the Queensland Premier Campbell Newman and turning it back on the states.
> 
> Mr Barnett says he was gobsmacked to hear the Prime Minister speak about the exact same 'gold-plating' concerns raised by Mr Newman at the last Council of Australian Governments meeting.
> 
> "Campbell Newman, and I distinctly remember this, said to the Prime Minister in front of the Premiers, what's happening is we're getting regulated price increases and it is leading to a gold plated system," he said.
> 
> "When [he] made those comments to the Prime Minister, it struck me that quite reasonably, she didn't know much about the issue, no reason why she should.
> 
> "It was Campbell Newman that raised this issue, now the Prime Minister is trying to blame Queensland and New South Wales; bit rich."




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-08/wa-lashes-back-at-pm-over-power-stoush/4185564


----------



## joea

Our PM is a crook
http://lpickering.net/item/15205

Is our PM a crook

http://lpickering.net/item/15696

I noticed Gingerella has drifted to $2.70. Rudd at $1.90.
Well when the above get more exposure, there certainly will be reactions from all sides.
Why we have not heard from Gillard is, "she is in damage mode", with no control.

joea


----------



## Julia

Who is Larry Pickering?

Is this his blog?

How do we know what he says is true?


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Who is Larry Pickering?
> 
> Is this his blog?
> 
> How do we know what he says is true?




I can tell you for a fact Julia a close friend of mine has a friend who has first hand knowledge of Gillards past and the rumours are true.
I stood there as he read a text message forwarded to him in confidence that told what he knew.
So I believe it but why the media havent acted is a mystery, perhaps they will soon....


----------



## Julia

I'm no wiser as to who Larry Pickering is and why he has any credibility.

The Australian is usually unafraid to put up criticism of any person or institution that can be substantiated.
They have gone no further than their article on this subject of a few weeks ago.

If someone like Hedley Thomas was putting his name to this I'd be more interested.

I don't wish to malign Mr Pickering but if he knows so much why not just come out with it all and give it to mainstream media to air?


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard sensing the stench to come from rising electricity bills due to the carbon tax has gone on the attack. Never mind that much of the increases to which she refers were largely under state Labor administrations.
> 
> She has however gone further, suggesting that electricity utilities cut costs by compromising on the reliability of supply.
> 
> She would be wise to have a quiet chat with Eric Ripper.




Not quite the whole story in WA old chap

Both sides liked to rip $300 mil a year out of Western Power for revenue while the infrastructure run down.

Barnett (Liberal )has raised WA power bills by 57% with Western Power asking for another 16% next year then %11 for the following 2 years.

Abbott is calling for state power utilities to be privatized BTW how is that going in WA?


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> I'm no wiser as to who Larry Pickering is and why he has any credibility.
> 
> The Australian is usually unafraid to put up criticism of any person or institution that can be substantiated.
> They have gone no further than their article on this subject of a few weeks ago.
> 
> If someone like Hedley Thomas was putting his name to this I'd be more interested.
> 
> I don't wish to malign Mr Pickering but if he knows so much why not just come out with it all and give it to mainstream media to air?




Larry Pickering is a renowned charicature artist for the Herald Sun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Pickering

not sure how he fits in either but I guess he has very strong political views..
Regardless of his posts the rumours I believe are in fact true and it looks as if the mainstream media might pick this up soon.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Not quite the whole story in WA old chap
> 
> Both sides liked to rip $300 mil a year out of Western Power for revenue while the infrastructure run down.
> 
> Barnett (Liberal )has raised WA power bills by 57% with Western Power asking for another 16% next year then %11 for the following 2 years.
> 
> Abbott is calling for state power utilities to be privatized BTW how is that going in WA?



I can see you're going to have to be trained to say something new.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> Spin, spin, twist and twirl,
> 
> Julia's again a very naughty girl.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-08/wa-lashes-back-at-pm-over-power-stoush/4185564




Seconded by Barry O'Farrell



> "This is a fabrication by the Prime Minister," Mr Abbott told ABC radio.
> 
> "Why should we believe the Prime Minister now about so-called gold-plating of power infrastructure, when she has never talked about it for the last five years?"
> 
> Premier O'Farrell said today he been complaining about network over-investment for at least three years.
> 
> "It's one of the reasons we merged three distributors, and the expected $400m savings are paying for the increased or new rebates we've introduced,'' he said on Twitter.
> 
> Premier Newman has also repeatedly complained of ``gold-plating'' of power networks by the former Queensland Labor government.
> 
> He raised the issue with Ms Gillard at a recent dinner at The Lodge.
> 
> According to Mr O'Farrell, Mr Newman complained to the Prime Minister that federally-appointed national electricity market regulators were simply ticking off price rise applications without properly checking them.
> 
> "Campbell Newman said, and I distinctly remember this, 'We're getting regulated price increases and it is leading to a gold-plated system', exactly the same words that Julia Gillard used','' Mr O'Farrell said yesterday.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rphy-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226446593729


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Who is Larry Pickering?
> 
> Is this his blog?
> 
> How do we know what he says is true?




IMO Larry Pickering has more credibility than Gillard.
Because all he has to have is one "gram" of integrity and an ounce of "morals".

How do we know what he says is true? 
How do we know what Gingerella  says is true.? Well we know 90% is lies from our PM.
The other 10% is spin she steals, from others then makes it her own.

And that is the prime reason Abbot is keeping their policy changes close to his chest.

William Glasser quote, is we learn from...
10% of what we read,
20% of what we hear.
Now what is the truth?

In Gingerella's case, "The truth is on the march and nothing will stop it"....Emile Zola.
joea


----------



## sails

Slater and Gordon wanting to lift the lid on certain files - from the Australian:



> THE most powerful union in Australia, the Australian Workers Union, is being asked by its former law firm Slater & Gordon for permission to lift a legal lid on highly sensitive files on a union funds scandal that subsequently embroiled Julia Gillard.
> 
> The move will put pressure on AWU boss Paul Howes, who has pledged zero tolerance for union corruption, to grant public scrutiny of confidential files tied to an allegedly criminal scam that has dogged the Prime Minister throughout her political career.




Law firm presses Australian Workers Union on privilege

More here on Bolt's Blog including a larger excerpt of the story from the Australian plus further links and updates:

Law firm wants permission to release its Wilson files/


----------



## MrBurns

I reckon......................this could bring down the Govt before too long.

It just takes 4 Corners or 60 Minutes to run with it and it's all over, they will be working on it now I would think.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> I reckon......................this could bring down the Govt before too long.
> 
> It just takes 4 Corners or 60 Minutes to run with it and it's all over, they will be working on it now I would think.




The Government, or both the Government and Labor??
If this is not sorted out before the next election, voters should go on strike!!:bananasmi:bananasmi

joea


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> I reckon......................this could bring down the Govt before too long.
> 
> It just takes 4 Corners or 60 Minutes to run with it and it's all over, they will be working on it now I would think.




I can't see 60 Minutes covering this, too political and too complicated for them.  4 Corners mybe but might be too hot for them given that the ABC haven't mentioned it at all, not on TV or radio.  And yet, they were quick to cover the allegations against the guy that is taking Peter Slipper to court (James Ashby).


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> I can't see 60 Minutes covering this, too political and too complicated for them.  4 Corners mybe but might be too hot for them given that the ABC haven't mentioned it at all, not on TV or radio.  And yet, they were quick to cover the allegations against the guy that is taking Peter Slipper to court (James Ashby).




This could be the biggest story in decades, certainly bigger than the Whitlam dismissal, I wonder who wants to be first in because it WILL come out, it seems certain now.

I dont know how Jones can say what he does on radio and the other media just ignore it, he cant be lying or he'd be in court by now.

There'll be a trigger somewhere that does it, perhaps Gillard will resign citing unpopularity as the reason before it happens to avoid being sacked by her party.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> This could be the biggest story in decades, certainly bigger than the Whitlam dismissal, I wonder who wants to be first in because it WILL come out, it seems certain now.
> 
> I dont know how Jones can say what he does on radio and the other media just ignore it, he cant be lying or he'd be in court by now.
> 
> There'll be a trigger somewhere that does it, perhaps Gillard will resign citing unpopularity as the reason before it happens to avoid being sacked by her party.




Yes I agree, it's huge and it's mindboggling the ABC has not touched it.  Not even a passing mention on Insiders or anything.  Proof that the ABC is anything but unbiased.


----------



## joea

I have just heard a rumor from Canberra!

All the shops have been bought out of "Band - AIDs" and Savlon to "patch up Labor".

joea


----------



## MrBurns

Gee I hope she'll stay there to face the music but I think given her sly past she'll slink off when the time is right and leave someone else to take the full hit of the electorate.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> Gee I hope she'll stay there to face the music but I think given her sly past she'll slink off when the time is right and leave someone else to take the full hit of the electorate.




You are correct again MrBurns.
Once I was shooting in Warwick, and I saw a fox go behind a log and I thought I would creep up and
nail it. I was in view of that log all the way.
When I got close, there was no fox.(that fox was way smarter than me!!)
joea


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> This could be the biggest story in decades, certainly bigger than the Whitlam dismissal, I wonder who wants to be first in because it WILL come out, it seems certain now.
> 
> I dont know how Jones can say what he does on radio and the other media just ignore it, he cant be lying or he'd be in court by now.
> 
> There'll be a trigger somewhere that does it, perhaps Gillard will resign citing unpopularity as the reason before it happens to avoid being sacked by her party.




It will get buried and bogged down by labor long before anything happens


----------



## orr

drsmith said:


> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott.





If you stop and listen outside an asylum for the insane this is a mantra you're likely to hear emanating .
The real tragedy of course is the sensitive souls  that will be tipped into that same situation if it becomes reality


----------



## MrBurns

orr said:


> If you stop and listen outside an asylum for the insane this is a mantra you're likely to hear emanating .
> The real tragedy of course is the sensitive souls  that will be tipped into that same situation if it becomes reality






You may prefer Gingerella and a nation of our poorest living on cat food while the corrupt lying backstabber continues her destruction of this great nation but I would prefer to have a competent honest person in charge thanks and I think Abbott will fill the bill nicely.


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> I reckon......................this could bring down the Govt before too long.
> It just takes 4 Corners or 60 Minutes to run with it and it's all over, they will be working on it now I would think.



Nice idea, but ..4 Corners, not going to happen.


----------



## drsmith

orr said:


> The real tragedy of course is the sensitive souls  that will be tipped into that same situation if it becomes reality



Regardless of how you feel an Abbott Coalition government will perform, you have at least accepted it as a likely prospect and thus given a verdict on Gillard Labor.

That's a pass.


----------



## DB008

I was just reading a thread (You know, the one that Conroy mentioned the other day, "the NBN and dealing with the FUD" over on Whirlpool.

And a couple of quotes from Whirlpool posters...subject is the NBN - FUD.




> *ungulate*
> 
> 
> 
> seven_tech writes...
> He is a dangerous man for this country with that attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/the-price-of-power.html
Click to expand...





> *panther45*
> 
> 
> 
> seven_tech writes...
> He is a dangerous man for this country with that attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure is. People are beginning to wake up to this.
Click to expand...






> *zzzyz36*
> When people compare the cost of the NBN to other projects why don't they consider that it will benefit their entire country (22 million people) while other billion dollar projects will generally only service 10's or maybe 100's of thousands of people.
> 
> i.e. How does the cost per user compare to a big road project? A big road project that has no obvious accounting return and services maybe a few hundred unique visitors a year.






> *Mud Guts*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seven_tech writes...
> The man honestly cannot comprehend he is EVER wrong. He's been contradicted by MULTIPLE Coalition MP's for weeks on Carbon Tax, NBN, Asylum Seekers, you name it. But he'd NEVER back down.
> He is a dangerous man for this country with that attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the best that the Coalition can offer. How he manages to stay leader is beyond me.
> 
> All I can hope for is that prior to the election, the public support isn't there and the knives come out and that's the end of him.
> 
> Either way I suspect should Labor win again, that's the end of Tony Abbott.
Click to expand...


----------



## sails

What are the left so scared about Abbott?  Why are they soooo desperate to be rid of him?

Is it because he is a real threat to their carbon tax, non-border policies and runaway debt?  Is it because they fear he will repeal the legislation the majority don't want?

It seems the left have gone out of their way to denigrate Abbott and blame him for most of Gillard's stuff-ups.  I find it difficult to comprehend why this viscous attack on someone who is not PM and who doesn't have serious questions to answer over his past...

On the other hand, lefties are mysteriously silent on Gillard and certain AWU issues.  She told the lie of lies over carbon tax, went ahead and legislated even though opinion polls clearly showed the majority of voters did NOT want it and then danced with joy in parliament.  Shameful in a democracy, imo.

What has Abbott actually done wrong?...


----------



## moXJO

DB008 said:


> I was just reading a thread (You know, the one that Conroy mentioned the other day, "the NBN and dealing with the FUD" over on Whirlpool.
> 
> And a couple of quotes from Whirlpool posters...subject is the NBN - FUD.




I think the same could be said of Conroy


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> On the other hand, lefties are mysteriously silent on Gillard and certain AWU issues.  She told the lie of lies over carbon tax, went ahead and legislated even though opinion polls clearly showed the majority of voters did NOT want it and then danced with joy in parliament.  Shameful in a democracy, imo.



The ABC's Barry Cassidy doesn't think so. 



> BARRIE CASSIDY: If what’s driving you is the policy that you took to the last election, what about the carbon tax? There’d be no carbon tax; that was disposable
> 
> CHRIS BOWEN: Well Barrie this is a conscience vote. In the conscience vote I've weighed up the feedback in my electorate, I've weighed up on all people who have spoken to me on both sides of the issue and I've come to that view.
> 
> BARRIE CASSIDY: But if you take that view that you’ll only ever adopt a policy that went to the last election, you‘ll never change. You’ll never change a policy on anything.
> 
> CHRIS BOWEN: Well Barrie, the Labor Party's views that we need action on carbon has been known for many, many years now. We took a policy of pricing carbon to various elections, as has the Liberal Party from time to time.




http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3565950.htm


----------



## Ferret

sails said:


> What has Abbott actually done wrong?...




It’s some of the things he says he will do that annoy me and I think many other swing voters.

Like cancelling the NBN.  It is all too rare these days for any government to fund big infrastructure projects.  They just don’t look beyond their 3 year term and provide for the long term. 

Here is something worthwhile that most people support, and Abbott says he will stop it.   Why ?  I guess so he has the funds to throw at his ridiculous 6 month paid maternity leave scheme.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> The ABC's Barry Cassidy doesn't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHRIS BOWEN: Well Barrie, the Labor Party's views that we need action on carbon has been known for many, many years now. We took a policy of pricing carbon to various elections, as has the Liberal Party from time to time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3565950.htm
Click to expand...




Yeah, Bowen's statement above makes Gillard's promise of no carbon tax an even worse lie.  Obviously they had no intention of keeping it if they got in.


----------



## sails

Ferret said:


> It’s some of the things he says he will do that annoy me and I think many other swing voters.
> 
> Like cancelling the NBN.  It is all too rare these days for any government to fund big infrastructure projects.  They just don’t look beyond their 3 year term and provide for the long term.
> 
> Here is something worthwhile that most people support, and Abbott says he will stop it.   Why ?  I guess so he has the funds to throw at his ridiculous 6 month paid maternity leave scheme.




Ferret, I don't like everything the libs have on offer including the paid maternity leave scheme.  I am concerned with the cost of NBN and wonder if it will be outdated before

However, we only have the choice of two major parties.  So it's a case of continue on with no working border policy, a carbon tax the majority don't want and is likely to bite much harder yet and spiralling debt with a ceiling of around $300 billion.  And that's for starters.

The coalition still offer a better, granted not perfect, alternative, imo.


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> Ferret, I don't like everything the libs have on offer including the paid maternity leave scheme.  I am concerned with the cost of NBN and wonder if it will be outdated before
> 
> However, we only have the choice of two major parties.  So it's a case of continue on with no working border policy, a carbon tax the majority don't want and is likely to bite much harder yet and spiralling debt with a ceiling of around $300 billion.  And that's for starters.
> 
> The coalition still offer a better, granted not perfect, alternative, imo.




+1...


----------



## Ferret

sails said:


> The coalition still offer a better, granted not perfect, alternative, imo.




Fully agree, Sails, but you were defending Abbott and asking why people don't like him.  

I know I'm not alone in wanting a new government, but just wishing the libs would make a better offering.  

I live in hope of a better leader coming out of left field.


----------



## drsmith

Ferret said:


> I live in hope of a better leader coming out of left field.



That would be Malcolm.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> What are the left so scared about Abbott?  Why are they soooo desperate to be rid of him?
> 
> Is it because he is a real threat to their carbon tax, non-border policies and runaway debt?  Is it because they fear he will repeal the legislation the majority don't want?
> 
> It seems the left have gone out of their way to denigrate Abbott and blame him for most of Gillard's stuff-ups.  I find it difficult to comprehend why this viscous attack on someone who is not PM and who doesn't have serious questions to answer over his past...
> 
> On the other hand, lefties are mysteriously silent on Gillard and certain AWU issues.  She told the lie of lies over carbon tax, went ahead and legislated even though opinion polls clearly showed the majority of voters did NOT want it and then danced with joy in parliament.  Shameful in a democracy, imo.
> 
> What has Abbott actually done wrong?...




Like him or hate him, he is the best person for the job at hand. Time after time Labor have tried to prove his stance on issues wrong and ended up with egg on their faces. So then they started the "negative Tony" chant, that has backfired as proven by the polls. 
Actually now a lot of people are using the negativity chant as an excuse for their failings, which again reflects badly on the government.
When you consider the amount of poor press and mud slinging Abbott gets, I think his ratings are quite good.
If the reporters hounded Gillard and Conroy the same way, the unions would put the pressure on the reporters to back off.
I think Abbott would be stupid to start changing his staregy untill we are well and truly into an election campaign.
Gillard is proving one thing, she is capable of doing and saying anything, as long as it achieves the desired result.
Fighting people without morals, principles and honesty is really hard, that's why Turnbul has so much trouble, he thinks Julia will play fair.LOL

The reason they hate Tony, is simply because they can't make him trip up. If they could, they would be all over him like a rash, no in the blinking game Tony's winning.
That is why the press is reporting a new government stratergy is being rolled out. LOL
If the government was good and Tony was crap, the government wouldn't have to change stratergies.
The horse has bolted, the government is done, just a matter of waiting.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Like him or hate him, he is the best person for the job at hand. Time after time Labor have tried to prove his stance on issues wrong and ended up with egg on their faces. So then they started the "negative Tony" chant, that has backfired as proven by the polls.
> Actually now a lot of people are using the negativity chant as an excuse for their failings, which again reflects badly on the government.
> When you consider the amount of poor press and mud slinging Abbott gets, I think his ratings are quite good.
> If the reporters hounded Gillard and Conroy the same way, the unions would put the pressure on the reporters to back off.
> I think Abbott would be stupid to start changing his staregy untill we are well and truly into an election campaign.
> Gillard is proving one thing, she is capable of doing and saying anything, as long as it achieves the desired result.
> Fighting people without morals, principles and honesty is really hard, that's why Turnbul has so much trouble, he thinks Julia will play fair.LOL



I would largely agree, but a bit more polish in his politics wouldn't go astray.


----------



## So_Cynical

Ferret said:


> Here is something worthwhile that most people support, and *Abbott says he will stop it.*   Why ?  I guess so he has the funds to throw at his ridiculous 6 month paid maternity leave scheme.




Just to bring you up to speed and add a bit of political reality into this Fantasy thread.

The Noalition now supports the NBN and will NOT scrap it, however they will try and "renegotiate existing contracts where possible" and try to switch to fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) rather than (FTTH) fibre-to-the-home.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...rap-nbn-turnbull/story-e6frf7kf-1226412903973


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> I would largely agree, but a bit more polish in his politics wouldn't go astray.




I tend to think a lot of the polish is taken off at the editing room and that is very hard to overcome. The only way Abbott will get reasonable press coverage is when the public demand it nearer an election. That is when creative editing will be held to task, it is difficult to hold the press accountable when in opposition.
As has been proven by Bob Brown, Conroy and Gillard you can bring pressure to bear on the press, mining companies, telecommunication companies actually just about anybody when you are in government. LOL
Doesn't matter if you are right or wrong all you need is a thick skin and a dictitorial attitude.


----------



## drsmith

So_Cynical said:


> Just to bring you up to speed and add a bit of political reality into this Fantasy thread.



That comment sums up the thread title magnificently.


----------



## So_Cynical

drsmith said:


> That comment sums up the thread title magnificently.




True...the fact that there is a Gillard government is due 100% to the fact that she dealt with political reality, did the deal and moved on and has thus given us 2 years of prosperity and big picture thinking and will deliver another 12 months at least.

Hurrah.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> Just to bring you up to speed and add a bit of political reality into this Fantasy thread.
> 
> The Noalition now supports the NBN and will NOT scrap it, however they will try and "renegotiate existing contracts where possible" and try to switch to fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) rather than (FTTH) fibre-to-the-home.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...rap-nbn-turnbull/story-e6frf7kf-1226412903973




That is probably the sensible course of action when a project goes past the point of no return. Looks like Abbotts called it right again, try and make right a labor stuff up by mitigating the loss.
Thanks for post So_Cynical, you must be seeing the light at last.


----------



## drsmith

So_Cynical said:


> Hurrah.



You're wise to get them in while you can.

You never know which one will be the last.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> True...the fact that there is a Gillard government is due 100% to the fact that she dealt with political reality, did the deal and moved on and has thus given us 2 years of prosperity and big picture thinking and will deliver another 12 months at least.
> 
> Hurrah.




Well if she has done that well, she should be a shoe in to win an election.

Shame she won't call one when 3/4 of the electorate want to throw her out. She clings to power with a minority government.
Yeh So_Cynical it's a big high five. LOL,LOL What a joke.

By the way is your first name Tim?


----------



## Julia

Ferret said:


> Fully agree, Sails, but you were defending Abbott and asking why people don't like him.
> 
> I know I'm not alone in wanting a new government, but just wishing the libs would make a better offering.
> 
> I live in hope of a better leader coming out of left field.



Malcolm Turnbull is the only one who seems possible, and the Libs seem pretty determined that he has had his chance and stuffed it up.  Further, he is too far to the Left to distinguish the Libs from Labor imo.
I like Scott Morrison, at least in his present portfolio, but he could hardly be considered Leader material, could he?
The capable people on the old front bench have departed, unfortunately.



sptrawler said:


> I tend to think a lot of the polish is taken off at the editing room and that is very hard to overcome.



Are you actually suggesting Tony Abbott is consistently a polished performer, but we are denied seeing this by editing of all of the media?  Surely not?
Why do you think Mr Abbott continuously refuses to appear on "7.30" where he knows he'll be put on the spot to provide immediate answers to some difficult questions?  He's always on with Alan Jones or Ray Hadley where the host gives him every opportunity to spout his slogans and asks no real questions.

Labor people are frequently interviewed on the ABC Radio current affairs programs, i.e. "Breakfast" on Radio National, and "PM".  Do we ever hear Mr Abbott, other than the occasional sound bite?  No.

And no, I'm not a convert to the government at all, just very much wishing the Libs could provide a truly viable alternative.  If Mr Abbott could show us more of the persona he displays when engaging with aboriginal people in the Northern Territory he would win more hearts.  He seems genuinely able to act like a real person in this context.

For you die hard Abbott fans:  what will Mr Abbott do if he attempts (in government) to re-open Nauru, and a similar challenge to that which tossed out the Malaysia Solution occurs?  This is entirely possible.
The Left have had a delicious taste of their preferred option of onshore processing and will be all geared up, with the assistance of pro bono lawyers, to challenge a return to the Pacific Solution.


----------



## moXJO

As a man I admire what Abbott has achieved and I respect him for that. But as a future PM, well he really has some work to do. His style of attack is running out of steam and Labor knows it. All labor has to do is keep a lid on it's corrupt stinky mess till the election. Considering labor could ruin the most basic of tasks  I don't see that happening either giving Abbott the chance to reload and fire


----------



## Logique

I forget which channel, probably the ABC, but quite recently there was a brief glimpse of a former Victorian Premier on set performing Joan Jett's "I Love Rock and Roll". A host of sisters were on stage to help out, including no less than our current PM in a short leather skirt. 

A pathway to the top, ambition in heels. Networking on steroids. Labor knew their mark, but it will end badly. 

By comparison, Margaret Thatcher was more connected to her people, had a grip on policy, and was economically literate. Not to mention (horrors) a Conservative.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> For you die hard Abbott fans:  what will Mr Abbott do if he attempts (in government) to re-open Nauru, and a similar challenge to that which tossed out the Malaysia Solution occurs?  This is entirely possible.
> The Left have had a delicious taste of their preferred option of onshore processing and will be all geared up, with the assistance of pro bono lawyers, to challenge a return to the Pacific Solution.




Firstly I'm not a die hard Abbott fan, but I don't see anyone else on the Lib bench with the b@lls to take on Gillard. Abbott may have his faults, but he is not close to Gillard in the nasty stakes.
Secondly, as you know Nauru has agreed to any and all requirements to meet U.N conventions. Also the detention centres, as with Christmas Island would be manned by Australian staff. So I really don't see where you are coming from with the challenge issue?


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> For you die hard Abbott fans:  what will Mr Abbott do if he attempts (in government) to re-open Nauru, and a similar challenge to that which tossed out the Malaysia Solution occurs?  This is entirely possible.



Regardless of how you wish to label those who have an opinion that differs from your own, TA made the right call in rejecting Labor's Malaysia solution and is right in inststing that it's policies be adopted given Labor's been such a failure. 

As I have said before, Labor and its partners in government command a majority in both houses. 

Of interest might be Scott Morrison on Meet The Press today.


----------



## sails

Ferret said:


> Fully agree, Sails, but you were defending Abbott and asking why people don't like him.
> 
> I know I'm not alone in wanting a new government, but just wishing the libs would make a better offering.
> 
> I live in hope of a better leader coming out of left field.





Ferret, my post wasn't intended to defend Abbott - it was more asking why the unbelievably viscous attacks on him over such little mistakes.

One of my granddaughters was being bullied by a boy living in the same complex - called her untrue names and threatened to set he alight with a lighter.  She kept out of his way but then another girl moved in.  She asked the bully what had my granddaughter ever done to deserve such treatment?  He shrugged his shoulders and couldn't think of anything.  

I dislike bully behaviour when there is no grounds for the nastiness.  It almost seems to me that Abbott is the subject of some nasty verbal bullying - and for what?  That was the point of my post.  Even your reply had very little reason in it to justify such verbal bully behaviour to Abbott, imo.

Compared to Gillard he seems pretty decent.  What am I missing?  Does he really deserve the nastiness thrown his way?

It does seem to be more of a tactical thing for the left to be rid of him and so every LITTLE mistake, no matter how tiny, is magnified massively meanwhile Gillard continues to stuff-up most things she touches and lefties have nothing to say about that and try to make out we are doing fine...

ABC seems to be the brainwashing arm of labor. I agree with Dr Smith about not taking the "interpretation" of a journalist on something Abbott may or may not have said.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Firstly I'm not a die hard Abbott fan, but I don't see anyone else on the Lib bench with the b@lls to take on Gillard.



Agree.  I don't get why agreeing he is the best available person right now to do the job seems to mean on this forum that his faults cannot be discussed.


> Abbott may have his faults, but he is not close to Gillard in the nasty stakes.



Or personal amorality, I would imagine.



> Secondly, as you know Nauru has agreed to any and all requirements to meet U.N conventions. Also the detention centres, as with Christmas Island would be manned by Australian staff. So I really don't see where you are coming from with the challenge issue?



I don't know, sp,   I'm not a lawyer.  I'm just thinking of all the refugee advocates and their legal advisers who have said if Nauru is adopted they will mount a High Court challenge.  Might be all hot air.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I dislike bully behaviour when there is no grounds for the nastiness.



  I don't see anyone actually bullying, i.e. threatening Mr Abbott.  Why are you so resistant to any discussion of his disattributes?
We are talking about the future Prime Minister here, not a clerk in a government department, and there has to be some reason why a large proportion of the electorate do not like him.  They just don't.  That's the reality.



> It almost seems to me that Abbott is the subject of some nasty verbal bullying - and for what?  That was the point of my post.  Even your reply had very little reason in it to justify such verbal bully behaviour to Abbott, imo.



I suppose we see what we're looking for.  To me, Ferret's post was very realistic and sensible.




> Compared to Gillard he seems pretty decent.  What am I missing?  Does he really deserve the nastiness thrown his way?



Yes, in terms of being a no doubt good family man, a Christian for those to whom that's a plus, probably a good friend and neighbour, that's certainly how I'd see him also.  But those qualities do not automatically confer on him the political gravitas, nous and skills to be a good Prime Minister.
He has been in the parliament for many years now, has been a Cabinet Minister, and should, you'd think, be beyond making silly statements, and demonstrably reluctant to front up for interview to anyone who wants more than a sound bite slogan.

Think of a politician you just don't like, sails.  You don't have to be able to explain that dislike in words.  You just don't think he's what is needed for the job to which he's aspiring.  That's how much of the electorate feels about Mr Abbott.  Probably not much he can do about it at this stage.

And drsmith, when making remarks like "what Tony Abbott may or may not have said", you continue to ignore my question of why both Malcolm Turnbull and Ian Macfarlane would contradict Mr Abbott's remark.  Fairly obviously, if he didn't say it there would be no need for anyone to contradict it, would there?


----------



## sptrawler

Well it appears Abbott was mostly right again, now that the panel on asylum seekers have given their recomendations.
They say increase the intake to 20,000. Abbott sugested that.
They say open Nauru and Manus Island. Abbott again.
They say at the moment the Malaysian solution should be explored further, as there are no safegaurds in place. It should not be thrown out without further investigation. In other words it's a crock. Again Abbott was right.
They don't agree with turning back boats.
Still three out of four ain't bad.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Well it appears Abbott was mostly right again, now that the panel on asylum seekers have given their recomendations.
> They say increase the intake to 20,000. Abbott sugested that.
> They say open Nauru and Manus Island. Abbott again.
> They say at the moment the Malaysian solution should be explored further, as there are no safegaurds in place. It should not be thrown out without further investigation. In other words it's a crock. Again Abbott was right.
> They don't agree with turning back boats.
> Still three out of four ain't bad.




Abbott should run with that for now, Gillard will be out soon and he can tidy it up then


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> Abbott should run with that for now, Gillard will be out soon and he can tidy it up then




Yes Abbott should start saying, I'm not negative, just fed up with constantly having to correct their bad policies. Maybe the labor party should be paying Abbott as an adviser. 

It's o.k to slag off at people when you are right, labors problem is, they seldom are.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Well it appears Abbott was mostly right again, now that the panel on asylum seekers have given their recomendations.
> They say increase the intake to 20,000. Abbott sugested that.
> They say open Nauru and Manus Island. Abbott again.
> They say at the moment the Malaysian solution should be explored further, as there are no safegaurds in place. It should not be thrown out without further investigation. In other words it's a crock. Again Abbott was right.
> They don't agree with turning back boats.
> Still three out of four ain't bad.



That's an excellent result for the Libs and gives the government the reason they need (i.e. following the recommendation of experts) to back down on their refusal to go back to Nauru.

sptrawler, according to the ABC's website they haven't actually disagreed with turning back the boats, see below.  So effectively the panel have completely adopted the Liberal policy.  Terrific.

Here is the relevant extract from Angus Houston's report:


> 12:59pm: Houston says Australia should "immediately pursue amendments to the arrangement it negotiated with Malaysia in 2011. Those arrangements should include, in particular, strengthening the protections and accountabilities which are relevant to the transfer of a number of irregular maritime arrivals from Australia to Malaysia."
> 
> He also says the panel believes the Coalition's preferred option of turning some asylum boats back has merit:
> 
> "In the panel's view, turning back irregular maritime vessels carrying asylum seekers to Australia can be operationally achieved and can constitute an effective disincentive to such ventures, but only in circumstances where a range of operational, safety of life, diplomatic and legal conditions are met.
> 
> "Currently the panel does not believe those conditions exist, although they could in the future, particularly if appropriate regional and bilateral arrangements are in place."




It will be interesting to see what the government makes of this.





> Asylum report: the key points
> 
> * Establish offshore processing facilities in Nauru and PNG as part of a "comprehensive regional network".
> * Pursue talks on the Malaysian solution but seek more reassurances from Malaysia about the treatment of people who are sent there.
> * Increase co-operation with Indonesia on joint surveillance, law enforcement, and search and rescue.
> * Increase Australia's humanitarian intake from 13,000 to 20,000 places a year, and up to 27,000 within five years.
> * Those who arrive by boat should not be eligible to sponsor family members to join them in Australia.
> * Consider turning back boats in the future but only if operational, safety and legal conditions are met.
> * Future policy should be driven by a "sense of humanity as well as fairness".




It's good that they have included a wiping of the eligibility to sponsor family members to join them here.

The Greens will be pretty upset.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> That's an excellent result for the Libs and gives the government the reason they need (i.e. following the recommendation of experts) to back down on their refusal to go back to Nauru.
> 
> sptrawler, according to the ABC's website they haven't actually disagreed with turning back the boats, see below.  So effectively the panel have completely adopted the Liberal policy.  Terrific.
> .




Well that's great, shows Tony's not negative, just stating facts. Gillard should start listening instead of talking, is there any wonder poor old Bowen looks ill.
The goon show pulls the trigger before clearing the holster, both feet blown off, yet again. LOL

Wonder what spin So_Cynical will put on it this time. The opposition comes up with four aces and labor are caught holding a pair of two's. LOL,LOL

How people can keep harping on, Abbott hasn't a clue, when he keeps rubbing the governments nose in it is beyond me. 
It will be interesting to see if the news reports give Abbott credit for being correct in his assesment of the action required. 
Also lets see if they pay out on Gillard for being so stuborn and so wrong for so long!!!!!!


----------



## Ferret

Julia said:


> That's an excellent result for the Libs and gives the government the reason they need (i.e. following the recommendation of experts) to back down on their refusal to go back to Nauru.




I think this makes it a win for Gillard, too.  

As you point out, she could now agree to go back to Nauru and say that’s on the basis of the advice of the committee, rather than accepting the Libs policy.  Perhaps that saves her some face.

It will be interesting to see what Labor does now.



Julia said:


> The Greens will be pretty upset.




Agree that the Greens are definitely the losers out of this.  I'll add my own smiley too!


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Well it appears Abbott was mostly right again, now that the panel on asylum seekers have given their recomendations.
> They say increase the intake to 20,000. Abbott sugested that.
> They say open Nauru and Manus Island. Abbott again.
> They say at the moment the Malaysian solution should be explored further, as there are no safegaurds in place. It should not be thrown out without further investigation. In other words it's a crock. Again Abbott was right.
> They don't agree with turning back boats.
> Still three out of four ain't bad.




Has anyone heard if they plan to have TPVs?  I understand that was an important part of the system that worked previously.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Has anyone heard if they plan to have TPVs?  I understand that was an important part of the system that worked previously.




I think they have recomended that asylum seekers can't bring relatives over.


----------



## sptrawler

Ferret said:


> I think this makes it a win for Gillard, too.
> 
> As you point out, she could now agree to go back to Nauru and say that’s on the basis of the advice of the committee, rather than accepting the Libs policy.  Perhaps that saves her some face.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what Labor does now.




Yes a real win for Gillard, has to pay for a commitee to tell her what Tony has been telling her.
Too stuborn for words, or maybe just to negative to listen.


----------



## dutchie

But Julia claims that their new policy of going back to Nauru & PNG is different to the Libs policy.

How dumb does she think the electorate is?


----------



## moXJO

dutchie said:


> How dumb does she think the electorate is?




Well if it's judging the labor faithful, then real dumb.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> But Julia claims that their new policy of going back to Nauru & PNG is different to the Libs policy.
> 
> How dumb does she think the electorate is?




Just reinforces the view she has the hide of a rhino and lacks the character to stand up and say she was wrong. Certainly takes the cake in arrogance stakes.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> How people can keep harping on, Abbott hasn't a clue, when he keeps rubbing the governments nose in it is beyond me.
> It will be interesting to see if the news reports give Abbott credit for being correct in his assesment of the action required.
> Also lets see if they pay out on Gillard for being so stuborn and so wrong for so long!!!!!!




Obviously the papers don't want to say it as it is, another labor stuff up.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...erts-asylum-seeker-report-20120813-24417.html

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/14540535/gillard-backs-nauru-asylum-plan/

Sending in the storm troopers last year must have frightened the $hit out of the newspapers.
Why don't the papers say the experts back Abbotts stance, obviously scared to death.

I loved the SMH headline Gillard saying we are over it, what over being a stuborn so and so.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Well that's great, shows Tony's not negative, just stating facts. Gillard should start listening instead of talking, is there any wonder poor old Bowen looks ill.



I feel for Chris Bowen.  He wanted to revert to using Nauru some time ago but was blocked by Gillard et al.
He had to front "7.30" this evening and managed to do so articulately and pretty honestly.



sails said:


> Has anyone heard if they plan to have TPVs?  I understand that was an important part of the system that worked previously.






sptrawler said:


> I think they have recomended that asylum seekers can't bring relatives over.



Yes:  they have essentially recommended the spirit of the TPVs without actually using that name.


> Mr Morrison encouraged Labor to ''get to work'' on reopening the asylum seeker centres on Nauru and Manus Island.
> 
> The Coalition frontbencher said the Houston report endorsed the spirit of temporary protection visas and supported the Howard government view that family reunions were a pull factor.
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...eker-report-20120813-24417.html#ixzz23QP6ZDnM








sptrawler said:


> Why don't the papers say the experts back Abbotts stance, obviously scared to death.



They don't need to.  It's absolutely obvious and a complete humiliation for Gillard.

I can't stop smiling at how the Greens will be feeling.
Perhaps this will be the start of their irrelevance.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> I feel for Chris Bowen.  He wanted to revert to using Nauru some time ago but was blocked by Gillard et al.



On the ABC's website there was an image of Julia Gillard and Chris Bowen while Julia gillard was speaking. It's gone now, but in it Chris Bowen didn't look very happy.



Julia said:


> It's absolutely obvious and a complete humiliation for Gillard.




And vindication for TA's stance.

-----------------------------------------------------------

As for Labor's so-called recent poll revival,



http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> And vindication for TA's stance.



Yes, absolutely.
You were quite right when, some months ago, you insisted he should not budge.


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> But Julia claims that their new policy of going back to Nauru & PNG is different to the Libs policy.
> 
> How dumb does she think the electorate is?




Actually there are differences that the committee recommended such as no advantage to boat people over those sitting in camps waiting for placement and relatives to only come through normal immigration not automatic selection.

Also the committee recommended seeking a regional solution along the lines of the Malaysia deal but with tighter controls over asylum  seeker rights and protections none of which I believe are Coalition policy.

Interesting such a union driven, left wing, Fabians Labor party looking to adopt an ultra ring wing policy.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Interesting such a union driven, left wing, Fabians Labor party looking to adopt an ultra ring wing policy.



Labor hasn't adopted anything. It's been forced down Labor's throat.

Perhaps Labor should outsource governing more often.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Interesting such a union driven, left wing, Fabians Labor party looking to adopt an ultra ring wing policy.




You mean yet another thing they have had to back flip on.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Actually there are differences that the committee recommended such as no advantage to boat people over those sitting in camps waiting for placement and relatives to only come through normal immigration not automatic selection.
> 
> Also the committee recommended seeking a regional solution along the lines of the Malaysia deal but with tighter controls over asylum  seeker rights and protections none of which I believe are Coalition policy.
> 
> Interesting such a union driven, left wing, Fabians Labor party looking to adopt an ultra ring wing policy.




Yep there is a million ways of saying another **** up, without saying it. LOL,LOL


----------



## dutchie

The incompetence continues..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_hesFOuUo3o#t=0s


----------



## drsmith

And now for Julia Gillard, the ultimate humiliation.



> *Prime Minister Julia Gillard has phoned the President of Nauru *and the Prime Minister of Papua New Guinea to formally request re-opening twin asylum-seeker processing centres on both the Pacific island nations.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/gillard-calls-for-naurus-help-20120814-245h3.html

If she goes into the kitchen of what's left of the house of Labor, I suspect she will find both the knife block and the Redheads missing.


----------



## MrBurns

I'm about to order the party pies and the champers for election night.

I hope Gingerella hasn't scurried away by then to avoid the consequences of her actions.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I'm about to order the party pies and the champers for election night.
> 
> I hope Gingerella hasn't scurried away by then to avoid the consequences of her actions.



Her party will slaughter her well before then, torch her political corpse and scatter the ashes in a far, far away palce.

She has brought her party to the brink of ruin.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Her party will slaughter her well before then, torch her political corpse and scatter the ashes in a far, far away palce.
> 
> She has brought her party to the brink of ruin.




And she deserves all that and more................


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Labor hasn't adopted anything. It's been forced down Labor's throat.
> Perhaps Labor should outsource governing more often.



True, and above all, exasperating. They just don't get it.  Admitting you were wrong at least earns respect, that they can't bring themselves to it, goes to fitness to govern. To lead a nation, you must leave tribalism behind.

I don't place all the blame at the PM's feet. It's been a team effort by Labor. Anyway the CVs will say:  "..Minister from-to..", "..PM from-to..", they'll move on. Always a safe place to fall if you're plugged in to the right networks. And the PM very much is. Kevin Rudd knows it.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> True, and above all, exasperating. They just don't get it.  Admitting you were wrong at least earns respect, that they can't bring themselves to it, goes to fitness to govern. To lead a nation, you must leave tribalism behind.



I'm wondering how the electorate will view all this.  Might they in fact see it as an admission of being wrong and a preparedness to totally change tack?   It was, after all, Kevin Rudd who dismantled the Pacific Solution.
Might be just another thing to add in the list of stuff for which Kev is to blame, thus minimising the fallout for Ms Gillard.  Or perhaps the voters have seen enough of Labor's stuff ups to just not care about who to blame other than just the party itself.   

I don't know.  The next poll will be interesting.

Must be the ultimate humiliation for Ms Gillard to have to phone the leaders of Nauru and PNG.

Ultimately, perhaps the Greens will benefit from this as disaffected Labor voters, against any form of offshore processing, leave Labor.


----------



## drsmith

Not much fire in Julia Gillard's voice in Parliament today.

She's just parroting out her non-answers.

http://www.aph.gov.au/News_and_Events/LiveMediaPlayer?vID={853C649A-6FA7-4E44-A970-7D5F6C9F8FDE}&type=1&accept=true


----------



## white_goodman

Julia said:


> I'm wondering how the electorate will view all this.  Might they in fact see it as an admission of being wrong and a preparedness to totally change tack?   It was, after all, Kevin Rudd who dismantled the Pacific Solution.
> Might be just another thing to add in the list of stuff for which Kev is to blame, thus minimising the fallout for Ms Gillard.  Or perhaps the voters have seen enough of Labor's stuff ups to just not care about who to blame other than just the party itself.
> 
> I don't know.  The next poll will be interesting.
> 
> Must be the ultimate humiliation for Ms Gillard to have to phone the leaders of Nauru and PNG.
> 
> Ultimately, perhaps the Greens will benefit from this as disaffected Labor voters, against any form of offshore processing, leave Labor.




i think its a false idea that labors loss equals the greens gain.. theres plenty of labor supporters that should never support those radicals. Id see more go to independents, smaller partys and the LNP

id love to see more go to the lib dems

then again its all speculation, LNP sitting at $1.25 to win it, i cant see that price blowing


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> I'm wondering how the electorate will view all this.....Or perhaps the voters have seen enough of Labor's stuff ups to just not care about who to blame other than just the party itself..



Probably this Julia. I'd say the electorate are too far gone now, and every power bill reminds them. This is what Australia has come to,  our federal governance is, to use the vernacular, and with apologies to that nation, a "Greek Tragedy".


----------



## white_goodman

ill make sure i post stuff like this on my FB leading up to the election to convince all my soft minded female friends

Gillard really does have a flexibility of conviction doesnt she


----------



## drsmith

I enjoyed the serve he gave the government and Julia Gillard inparticular, but what he says at the end is most interesting.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-14/abbott-attacks-labors-policy-backflip/4198208

It would also appear that PNG has told the government it can stick Manus up its ginger.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/png-mp-to-stop-manus-island-centre-20120814-245yv.html


----------



## noco

Nothing but the best for our Federal bureaucrats. $15,000 for coffee machines???????????????????

Tax payers money at work.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...5000-coffee-perk/story-fndo1uez-1226449610775


----------



## Steve C

I have never had such disdain for a "group" of people. I honestly think this is the worst government in the history of Australia...easily! I just shake my head in disbelief at some of the things this great Labor party do. 

The next election can't come soon enough!


----------



## DB008

Steve C said:


> I have never had such disdain for a "group" of people. I honestly think this is the worst government in the history of Australia...easily! I just shake my head in disbelief at some of the things this great Labor party do.
> 
> The next election can't come soon enough!




Are they asleep at the wheel, or even there is my question.......


----------



## white_goodman

DB008 said:


> Are they asleep at the wheel, or even there is my question.......




it would be better if they were asleep at the wheel, msot govts would, the less they intervene and come up with retarded policies to 'spread the wealth' or some other egalitarian leviathan the better 

if they were asleep there would be no carbon tax, pink bats or school halls..


----------



## Steve C

white_goodman said:


> it would be better if they were asleep at the wheel, msot govts would, the less they intervene and come up with retarded policies to 'spread the wealth' or some other egalitarian leviathan the better
> 
> if they were asleep there would be no carbon tax, pink bats or school halls..




Agreed - If they are re-elected at the next election I will actually consider moving overseas, firstly because I couldn't stand another 3 years of Julia and Labor policies, and secondly because I would come to the conclusion that most Australian's are actually stupid...let us pray they can't pull the wool over Aussies eyes with cash handouts etc.


----------



## DB008

Steve C said:


> Agreed - If they are re-elected at the next election I will actually consider moving overseas, firstly because I couldn't stand another 3 years of Julia and Labor policies, and secondly because I would come to the conclusion that most Australian's are actually stupid...let us pray they can't pull the wool over Aussies eyes with cash handouts etc.




+1
I'm am actually considering this too.


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> I enjoyed the serve he gave the government and Julia Gillard inparticular, but what he says at the end is most interesting.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-14/abbott-attacks-labors-policy-backflip/4198208




He well and truly nailed it.


----------



## Happy

Steve C said:


> Agreed - If they are re-elected at the next election I will actually consider moving overseas, firstly because I couldn't stand another 3 years of Julia and Labor policies, and secondly because I would come to the conclusion that most Australian's are actually stupid...let us pray they can't pull the wool over Aussies eyes with cash handouts etc.




One of the arguments to vote Labor into power was that Liberals had it long enough and that we need change.

So more than 50% of Australian voters appear to be challenged when making choices.

Unfortunately if we happen to get more than 50% of society on some kind of unsustainable welfare one can bet that Labor will win every time.

Might even go further and Greens can win, with one of their polices that “private ownership should be discouraged”

Well, it might just happen that it will be hard to leave this former milk and honey country.


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> He well and truly nailed it.



Looking at Labor's scoreboard, he's clearly confident they won't be able to manage it.


----------



## drsmith

> *Two policy wins for the federal government*
> 
> The federal government has claimed two big legislative wins, after its asylum seeker bills passed the lower house and the High Court upheld its plain packaging tobacco laws.
> 
> Labor secured the support of the coalition on Wednesday, after 10 hours and 39 minutes of debate over two days, to pass laws enabling the reopening of the Nauru and Papua New Guinea processing centres for people who arrive by boat.




I thought the asylum seeker bills were a Coalition win given that they were an unconditional surrender of Labor to Coalition policy.

I suppose it depends on the colour of the glasses. 

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...or-the-federal-government-20120815-248l2.html


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> He well and truly nailed it.




He really did didn't he. I think Abbott will make an excellent PM


----------



## bunyip

I’m amused by Gillard calling Angus Houston and his team ‘a panel of experts’!
What experts??....Houston has wide experience as head of the armed forces – to my mind that doesn't make him an expert on how to address the illegal immigrant issue. Ditto for the rest of his team. 
The simple fact is that what was needed here, and what the Houston team delivered, was not expert opinion but rather some simple common sense measures that were already largely in place under Howard’s Pacific Solution.
It didn’t take experts to come up with these measures – it just took ordinary people like you and me and the millions of other Australians with the ability to think clearly and use a bit of common sense. 
Regrettably this pathetic government has demonstrated for four years that it’s sadly lacking in common sense and clear thinking ability. The cost of their ineptitude has been thousands of millions of dollars.

Never in the history of Australia has a government been left with so much egg smeared on their faces as what Gillard and her mates now have on theirs’ as a result of the illegal boat people issue.
Rudd started the debacle by abolishing Howard’s Pacific Solution, but let it not be forgotten that the present government, particularly Gillard and Swan, were instrumental in helping Rudd to formulate the many disastrous policies that been the hallmarks of this incompetent ALP government. 
Anyone who votes for this government at the next election should be ashamed of themselves. 
Love or hate Tony Abbot, but after what Gillard and Labor have put us through, surely Tony & Co deserve to be given a chance to fix the mess created by the ALP.


----------



## bunyip

drsmith said:


> I thought the asylum seeker bills were a Coalition win given that they were an unconditional surrender of Labor to Coalition policy.
> 
> I suppose it depends on the colour of the glasses.
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...or-the-federal-government-20120815-248l2.html




It looks like the Gillard backflip has spawned a brand new word in the English language....... the media referred to the four hour ‘_*gloatathon’*_ by the opposition today in regard to Gillard’s decision to run with policies put forward by the so called ‘panel of experts’.
Good on ‘em – the opposition have well and truly earned gloating rights in my opinion. For the last four years they’ve been telling the government what they should do to address the illegal boat people problem, and all that time the government has steadfastly refused to listen to them or see any merit in their suggestions. And now, lo and behold, Gillard does a complete backflip and adopts pretty much the same policies that she’s been ridiculing Abbot & Co for putting forward.
No wonder the opposition are indulging in a ‘gloatathon’ – they have every right to gloat.


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> It looks like the Gillard backflip has spawned a brand new word in the English language....... the media referred to the four hour ‘_*gloatathon’*_ by the opposition today in regard to Gillard’s decision to run with policies put forward by the so called ‘panel of experts’.
> Good on ‘em – the opposition have well and truly earned gloating rights in my opinion. For the last four years they’ve been telling the government what they should do to address the illegal boat people problem, and all that time the government has steadfastly refused to listen to them or see any merit in their suggestions. And now, lo and behold, Gillard does a complete backflip and adopts pretty much the same policies that she’s been ridiculing Abbot & Co for putting forward.
> No wonder the opposition are indulging in a ‘gloatathon’ – they have every right to gloat.




+1


----------



## Logique

Let's see how the _compassionistas_ spin this one.  Burnside, Carlton, an army of Canberra public servants, and  air-conditioned, greenhouse gas-emitting palaces of Fairfax journos. 

When Howard and Abbott supported Nauru they were cruel and unfeeling.

In cafes everywhere, methinks a large serve of humble pie comes with that _latte_ today.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> It would also appear that PNG has told the government it can stick Manus up its ginger.
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/png-mp-to-stop-manus-island-centre-20120814-245yv.html



Unless of course we open the cheque book.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-giving-go-ahead/story-fn59niix-1226451323425


----------



## IFocus

I think you all should leave Australia conditions are terrible


What are they again.......


Low Inflation
Low unemployment
Low interest rates
Low debt to GDP


Of course Abbott will improve all that.....wont he.......Hockey is a genius.....isn't he?


----------



## DB008

IFocus said:


> I think you all should leave Australia conditions are terrible
> 
> 
> What are they again.......
> 
> 
> Low Inflation
> Low unemployment
> Low interest rates
> Low debt to GDP
> 
> 
> Of course Abbott will improve all that.....wont he.......Hockey is a genius.....isn't he?




Greece/Spain/USA/U.K/Japan
Even Lower interest rates

and l'm guessing, probably highest wages in the world?


----------



## drsmith

A grumpy old man who sees his influence fading.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-16/windsor-launches-attack-on-abbott/4203518?WT.svl=news0



> The Opposition again interrupted Question Time to accuse the Prime Minister of lying over the carbon tax and asking her to apologise to the Australian people.
> 
> But Mr Windsor said Mr Abbott would have been willing to introduce a carbon tax in order to win the support of independent MPs after the last election.
> 
> "This man, the Leader of the Opposition, was quite prepared to do that if he'd been given the nod on that particular day," Mr Windsor told Parliament.




While not in the related ABC commentary, Tony Windsor states in the above speech that he never asked Tony Abbott as as whether he would support a carbon tax to claim office. He also admits that a carbon price was a pre-condition of forming government.

Clearly, he had no intentention whatsoever of siding with the Coalition.


----------



## DB008

DB008 said:


> Greece/Spain/USA/U.K/Japan
> Even Lower interest rates
> 
> and l'm guessing, probably highest wages in the world?




Sorry, confusing post.

There are lower interest rates around the world than here in Oz and our wages would also have to be one of the highest in the world.
Where can a University Graduate go and get a job paying $150+ first year out of uni, yeah, straight to the mines. Meanwhile, there are engineers in the USA with 10-15 ++ years experience getting $100k, if they are lucky.....hmm, makes you wonder...


----------



## bunyip

Sent to me by one of my email mates.

All of us (including those misguided people who continue to support Labor) know that when Rudd, Gillard, Swan and their mates disbanded Howards’ ‘Pacific Solution’ and replaced it with their pathetically stupid and unworkable policy, they set in motion a chain of events that created probably the biggest shemozzle in Australian political history.
Below is some inside information provided by a member or the AFP that shows just what’s been going on in this debacle, quite apart from the colossal waste of money.

If you’re undecided as to who to vote for at the next election, this issue alone – Labors’ pathetic stupidity and incompetence in their handling of the illegal boat people issue – should be enough to convince any reasonable and responsible person that we have to get rid of this government at the next election.

*The Land of Bloody Idiots!!!   Please forward this.

 THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT THE BOAT PEOPLE - (From Inspector [???] AFP)*

We all have had discussion of the boat people at some time or another. Most of us can't understand why the Australian Labor government continues to pay for these illegals whilst hard working Australians continue to suffer the brunt of taxes, levies and tolls to help pay for the government's mis-spending.

Well the time has come for the truth, I am asking everyone of you to spread this as far as you can and eventually it will end up with someone who might be able to do something about it.

According to this Australian Federal Police Officer, who obviously will never be named, here are some of the facts you all should be aware of.

[1] Currently the Federal Police are not producing as many drug busts due to the millions of dollars of their budget being put into intercepting illegal boat people

[2] When the boat sank last year off Christmas Island, the Australian authorities were throwing life jackets to the children

and the adults were swimming to where the life jackets were pushing the children under the water and taking the life jackets to save themselves.

[3] When the boat people arrive here, they have already printed out from the net their rights

and have a list of welfare benefits that they demand from the Australian Government.

[4] Whilst in detention they tell the guards that they are here to serve them and the Federal Police have already investigated a number of assaults on detention staff resulting from them "not respecting" the detainees.

So in other words when a guard doesn't respect or serve these illegal boat people to their satisfaction, they believe it's fine to backhand them to gain a little more respect.

[5] After spending around 6-9 months in detention, the illegal boat people have approximately $10 000 saved in welfare payments

from the Australian Government.

They then send the money home and arrange for the next family member to come out on a boat.

So this means we are actually paying for the flood of illegal boat people through the welfare payments provided to them.

[6] The boat people are all given mobile phones and allowed to phone where ever in the world they please.

The reported cost of the combined telephone bills for the first quarter of this year was $5,000,000.

Yes, you read correctly, 5 million dollars, all care of us - the tax payer.

[7] Residents and the Federal Police on Christmas Island only have dial-up internet which we all know is impracticable in today's internet age.

Yet all the detainees have broadband internet care of the tax payer yet again.

These are all facts that simply can't be spoken about by those who know.

Well the time has come Australia to say enough is enough.

Please ensure that you spread this as wide as you possibly can.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> A grumpy old man who sees his influence fading.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-16/windsor-launches-attack-on-abbott/4203518?WT.svl=news0
> 
> 
> 
> While not in the related ABC commentary, Tony Windsor states in the above speech that he never asked Tony Abbott as as whether he would support a carbon tax to claim office. He also admits that a carbon price was a pre-condition of forming government.
> 
> Clearly, he had no intentention whatsoever of siding with the Coalition.



No, he didn't and never would.  That he even went through the pretence of seeming to consider with whom to side was a total farce.  The sooner he retires or loses his seat, the better.  For someone so on about integrity, he has precious little himself.

Re Bunyip's post:  it is not illegal to seek asylum, so to refer to the boat people as 'illegals' is just not correct.
I won't comment on the rest of it.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> For someone so on about integrity, he has precious little himself.



Indeed.

It's a bit hard to walk away from something that was a pre-condition for government.



> The New England independent, whose vote will be critical to any legislation passing the House of Representatives, said he was prepared to walk away from the whole process if necessary.
> 
> ''The Greens want to be very careful about where they are going on this or they won't see anything in the Senate,'' he told the Herald yesterday.




http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...lans-if-greens-go-too-far-20110227-1ba0w.html


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Re Bunyip's post:  it is not illegal to seek asylum, so to refer to the boat people as 'illegals' is just not correct.
> I won't comment on the rest of it.





Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong, but as far as I know they’re entering Australian waters illegally rather than applying through the legal channels to come to our country.
And they're employing criminals (people smugglers) to bring them here.....that's illegal too as far as I know.


----------



## McLovin

bunyip said:


> Happy to be corrected if I’m wrong, but as far as I know they’re entering Australian waters illegally rather than applying through the legal channels to come to our country.
> And they're employing criminals (people smugglers) to bring them here.....that's illegal too as far as I know.




It's not illegal to enter Australian waters/airports/ports/space stations etc in order to claim asylum. An illegal immigrant is a non-citizen who is living in Australia without a valid or correct visa or PR. Plenty of illegal immigrants in Bondi, Coogee and Manly.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> I think you all should leave Australia conditions are terrible
> 
> 
> What are they again.......
> 
> 
> Low Inflation
> Low unemployment
> Low interest rates
> Low debt to GDP
> 
> 
> Of course Abbott will improve all that.....wont he.......Hockey is a genius.....isn't he?




Your post appears to imply that this government is doing a wonderful job. 

Yet in post 3995 you described the government as 'politically incompetent'. 

So which are they in your opinion? Are they wonderful or are they incompetent?


----------



## So_Cynical

bunyip said:


> Sent to me by one of my email mates.
> 
> All of us (including those misguided people who continue to support Labor) know that when Rudd, Gillard, Swan and their mates disbanded Howards’ ‘Pacific Solution’ and replaced it with their pathetically stupid and unworkable policy, they set in motion a chain of events that created probably the biggest shemozzle in Australian political history.
> Below is some inside information provided by a member or the AFP that shows just what’s been going on in this debacle, quite apart from the colossal waste of money.
> 
> 
> 
> Please ensure that you spread this as wide as you possibly can.




What a total crock.

Chain emails straight from Liberal party headquarters...oh please.


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> A grumpy old man who sees his influence fading.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-...anything new.
> Go back to sleep Tony!!!
> joea


----------



## dutchie

joea said:


> Go back to sleep Tony!!!
> joea




LOL


----------



## dutchie




----------



## dutchie

joea said:


> He has finally realized that his electorate may dump him.
> So immediately attacks the party targeting him.
> Well that's human nature I suppose.
> He could not come up with anything new.
> Go back to sleep Tony!!!
> joea




TW - is as irrelevant now as he was when he cheated his electorate to support this pathetic government.

He is as useful as a lawn mower in Santorini.


----------



## sails

McLovin said:


> It's not illegal to enter Australian waters/airports/ports/space stations etc in order to claim asylum. An illegal immigrant is a non-citizen who is living in Australia without a valid or correct visa or PR. Plenty of illegal immigrants in Bondi, Coogee and Manly.





But it is illegal to lie to Australian authorities to claim welfare benefits no matter who you are.  

Why should non refugee boat people who ditch their ID and then  fraudulently claim welfare and not be prosecuted (eg Captain Emad) and yet Aussies are?


----------



## Julia

So_Cynical said:


> What a total crock.
> 
> Chain emails straight from Liberal party headquarters...oh please.



The Liberal Party would never issue something like that.
Don't be ridiculous.


----------



## McLovin

sails said:


> But it is illegal to lie to Australian authorities to claim welfare benefits no matter who you are.
> 
> Why should non refugee boat people who ditch their ID and then  fraudulently claim welfare and not be prosecuted (eg Captain Emad) and yet Aussies are?




I neither know the answer nor care particularly much about it. I was just pointing out that there is a difference between unlawful and illegal.


----------



## Glen48

401k is being  drained in USA and now full of IOU's, once OZ runs out of money will the Feds in power here at the time do the same?


http://www.realecontv.com/page/11840.html


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> The Liberal Party would never issue something like that.
> Don't be ridiculous.



I am sure one of their die-hard sympathisers  (with no party links) would though.  Propaganda is reality in this day and age.


----------



## McLovin

Ves said:


> I am sure one of their die-hard sympathisers  (with no party links) would though.  Propaganda is reality in this day and age.




Funnily enough, the AFP also doesn't have a rank of "Inspector". Innocent mistake, I'm sure.

I'm just waiting for the "boat people eat babies" bumper stickers.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> I am sure one of their die-hard sympathisers  (with no party links) would though.  Propaganda is reality in this day and age.




It certainly is, remember the P.M adviser and the tent city fiasco. Also the P.M dept admitting rumaging around trying to find issues that can be used for propaganda against the opposition.


----------



## DB008

Interesting....

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/capital-wages-still-highest-growing-fastest-20120816-24ac0.html


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> I am sure one of their die-hard sympathisers  (with no party links) would though.  Propaganda is reality in this day and age.



Cranks of all political persuasions can and do put up all sorts of rubbish.
That is absolutely no reason to attribute such crap to any political party.

The chain email above imo will have come from the same invalid source as the one which did the rounds of the internet for some years, claiming that refugees were paid many times the amount our age pensioners receive.
Centrelink contradicted it over and over, but it still flourished.

People love to believe whatever supports their entrenched views.

To suggest that this latest one is an official message from the Liberal Party imo shows every bit as much malicious and irrational intent as the chain email itself.


----------



## drsmith

Was it ever determined as to where that video of _Kevin Rudd at his finest _ came from ?


----------



## joea

drsmith said:


> Was it ever determined as to where that video of _Kevin Rudd at his finest _ came from ?




Only denials on who did not leak it.

joea


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> Cranks of all political persuasions can and do put up all sorts of rubbish.




Julia
I think you have just summed up Tony Windsor.
joea


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> To suggest that this latest one is an *official* message from the Liberal Party imo shows every bit as much malicious and irrational intent as the chain email itself.



I don't think anyone said it was "official"  - but the events of the last decade leave no doubt in my mind that anything is possible in terms of its origin.  Not that it matters where it comes from, as you said, it's utter crap and full of falsity.


----------



## drsmith

Fresh rumblings from the depths of Labor's political cemetery ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-17/rudd-tells-forum-holding-grudges-is-pointless/4206754



> "I think Chris Bowen has handled himself well in this. I support his discharge of the portfolio.
> 
> "I've known him for a long time and he's a person who thinks about these things very, very carefully."




Perhaps it's what he doesn't say that's most significant.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> I don't think anyone said it was "official"  - but the events of the last decade leave no doubt in my mind that anything is possible in terms of its origin.  Not that it matters where it comes from, as you said, it's utter crap and full of falsity.



Don't be silly, Ves.  If someone suggests it's from the Liberal Party, that makes it 'official'.
The suggestion is offensive.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Fresh rumblings from the depths of Labor's political cemetery ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-17/rudd-tells-forum-holding-grudges-is-pointless/4206754
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it's what he doesn't say that's most significant.




If I remember correctly, Bowen was sympathetic to Abbotts policy, I may be wrong. But he allways looks like the guy who has been left holding the bunny.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> Don't be silly, Ves.  If someone suggests it's from the Liberal Party, that makes it 'official'.
> The suggestion is offensive.



Agree to disagree here -  not everything a party member, associate or sponsor does is "official."  If it doesn't have any traceable roots back to the party - then it certainly isn't official in my eyes.


----------



## Julia

I have no idea what you're trying to say, Ves.
No further comment from me.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> Agree to disagree here -  not everything a party member, associate or sponsor does is "official."  If it doesn't have any traceable roots back to the party - then it certainly isn't official in my eyes.




What does all that crap mean. "If it doesn't have any traceable roots back to the party". 
If he or she is a party member or associate, it obviously has a traceable "root" back to the party.

The same as the 'dick' that wound up the tent city uprising against Abbott. He just thought he would give them a friendy call, wasn't official, just being nice.
Still lost his job, got Gillard in more $hit than Ned Kelly, probably had the same naive outlook as yourself. 

Actually the labor government could probably use your ideoligy in its epitaph. 
It wasn't our fault, we were forced into it, others made us do it and just because we were in government didn't make it official. The Greens made us do it.LOL

Might not make it official in your eyes, but reflects badly in everyone elses.


----------



## Ves

You're only mentioning the ones that get caught.  It's certainly not naive to say that both parties have followers / members / associates / whatever who are winding up the propaganda machine behind closed doors. I'm not saying it is all malicous. Some of it is even public - I don't think there are many MPs without a facebook or twitter account these days. The internet is a very, very powerful tool and with the right know-how it is possible to say anything with complete anonymity - if you so desire.

It doesn't reflect badly in anyone's eyes if they don't know who is doing it in the first place.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> You're only mentioning the ones that get caught.  It's certainly not naive to say that both parties have followers / members / associates / whatever who are winding up the propaganda machine behind closed doors. I'm not saying it is all malicous. Some of it is even public - I don't think there are many MPs without a facebook or twitter account these days. The internet is a very, very powerful tool and with the right know-how it is possible to say anything with complete anonymity - if you so desire.
> 
> It doesn't reflect badly in anyone's eyes if they don't know who is doing it in the first place.




LOL you say that now, but it does reflect badly when it goes through Conroy's NBN filter, because they do know who is doing it. There is no anonymity, it all goes through the "filter"
Checkmate.
They don't spend this sort of money for your benefit, get over yourself.:


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> LOL you say that now, but it does reflect badly when it goes through Conroy's NBN filter, because they do know who is doing it. There is no anonymity, it all goes through the "filter"
> Checkmate.



What use is a "filter" if it isn't posted from Australia?


----------



## Ves

I think you're missing the point any way.  If you know what you're doing it's very easy to spread propaganda over the internet without anyone knowing who you are.  It need not get back to the party -  unless you're stupid, which admittedly a lot of politicians & staffers seem to be.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> I think you're missing the point any way.  If you know what you're doing it's very easy to spread propaganda over the internet without anyone knowing who you are.  It need not get back to the party -  unless you're stupid, which admittedly a lot of politicians & staffers seem to be.




Mate if you believe that, you are in fairyland. The internet is the single most powerfull tool the governments have ever had to correlate information.
That and the mobile phone, that is post digital, the analogue sytem was free range.
Politicians and staffers are front counter workers, the internet wasn't and isn't something that is structured in a shed down the back yard. All traffic goes through hubs all hubs will be monitored all computers have a signature all users have passwords.


----------



## Ves

Ever heard of encryption?


----------



## sinner

Ves said:


> Ever heard of encryption?






> But “this is more than just a data center,” says one senior intelligence official who until recently was involved with the program. The mammoth Bluffdale center will have another important and far more secret role that until now has gone unrevealed. It is also critical, he says, for breaking codes. And code-breaking is crucial, because much of the data that the center will handle””financial information, stock transactions, business deals, foreign military and diplomatic secrets, legal documents, confidential personal communications””will be heavily encrypted. According to another top official also involved with the program, the NSA made an enormous breakthrough several years ago in its ability to cryptanalyze, or break, unfathomably complex encryption systems employed by not only governments around the world but also many average computer users in the US. The upshot, according to this official: “Everybody’s a target; everybody with communication is a target.”



http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/

and to head off any
"they've got bigger fish to fry" or "they wouldn't spy on me" ...lol you're 6 years too late
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A


----------



## startrader

Here is a link to a story in today's Australian:  "*Gillard lost job after investigation*".  

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...et-investigation/story-fn6tcxar-1226452973559

It would be fantastic if this affair brings down this rotten government.  How she ever thought she could get to be Prime Minister and not have this eventually come out and how those idiot labor stooges who knew about this and put her into the top job did so thinking they would get away with it just defies belief!


----------



## bunyip

Rudd was on ABC News 24 this morning talking about his government’s decision to disband the Pacific Solution. As you’d expect he was trying to justify his decision, rather than showing enough character to just come out and say _‘we got it wrong on that one’. _


----------



## MrBurns

Larry Pickering has more  - 





WHAT BLEWITT HAS ON GILLARD IS BIG:
Larry Pickering


Whistleblower Ralph Blewitt is safely in the arms of The Australian newspaper while he awaits an assurance of indemnity from prosecution by police.

His febrile bitterness is not hidden as he explains his contempt for "that redheaded cow", "f**king Shorten" and others.
Gillard, as Prime Minister, was hounded by Blewitt for money he is still owed, about $12,000. Gillard responded with the threat, "Disappear or I will get the AFP on to you!". Blewitt promptly disappeared. But now he is back with hot blood and a thirst for vengeance.
One of the many questions The Pickering Post has broached with Gillard is: "Why does Ralph Blewitt consider it is you who should redress the claimed debt?" and, "Why did you react in such a way?"
These and many other questions are replied to in the same way each time: "Please refer to my previous responses." We have yet to see any response other than the initial, "I was young and naive" response.
So, will Ralph Blewitt be granted the indemnity he needs? Yes, of course he will, simply because the coppers wouldn't have charged him anyway and they can't be seen to be protecting Gillard. A refusal to indemnify would serve only to create an insatiable media storm of protest. The time for cover-ups is passed. We will have answers now, it has gone on for far too long! There is too much prima facie evidence for even the Left wing ABC to ignore.
Apart from the vague Statute of Limitations legislation which varies between States (in this case a small matter of 17 years is involved) Blewitt denies having benefited from any alleged ill-gotten gains. So exactly what does he need indemnity from? Well, obviously from much, much more than we already know. He will not tell me.
Regardless, there will be no successful prosecutions in this little scandal. So, in effect, it's no longer a matter of alleged criminality. It goes far beyond that. It goes to wide-spread corruption within Australian unions and their tentacles' deep reach into the bowels of government and, most importantly, what the hell will an incoming government do about it. This Government can do nothing. It is integral to, and subservient to, union corruption.
Blewitt and his wife, Mel, arrived back here from Malaysia terrified that, two weeks earlier, The Pickering Post had disclosed what was about to happen. His wife was concerned that they might be popped before Ralph could utter a word.
The Pickering Post, July 20, 2012: "Blewitt, and his wife, have been paid by a Melbourne law firm to fly back from Malaysia, where he is hiding out, to give evidence on behalf of a group of other people who also want Gillard's blood. He is in Melbourne now. Stay tuned."
Seventeen days later The Australian, on Friday August 3, splashed with a page one lead story that Blewitt had flown into Melbourne from Malaysia and was seeking personal indemnity to spill the beans on the whole Gillard/Wilson/AWU scandal.
Blewitt immediately made contact with me and I explained to him how the information we had was obtained. He appeared relieved. But he and Mel are safe from union thugs now because The Australian already has his statements in hand. The police also have a fair idea of his likely disclosures.
How do I know there is much more to come? The paper I once worked for would never splash this story as a page one lead without knowing the full extent of the substance of what Blewitt has to say. The story, when it breaks, will have plenty more meat on the bone; meat we have not yet chewed on, and certainly enough to ruin Gillard's holiday.
Gillard will not be charged but it will be claimed that she was fully aware of, and complicit in, the fraudulently-acquired funds and that she benefited from them. Her boyfriend at the time, and prime culprit, Bruce Wilson, will again attract police interest. My view is that he will not be charged either. Blewitt's testimony will need to withstand rigorous scrutiny against a closing of the ranks in the AWU. Only a Royal Commission will prise apart that sort of solidarity.
Kim Williams, the incoming CEO of News Ltd, deserves commendation for biting the bullet and not bowing to Gillard's threats of exposing phone hacking if the story was exposed. Maybe he had a religious epiphany or simply realised that Gillard is already spayed and far beyond the power to blackmail media.
When the dust settles on this ugly episode Julia Gillard's reign as Prime Minister will be over, if not before.
The most important issue will be curbing unions' continued foul influence on government and its stewardship over caches of tens of billions in superannuation... a nasty little cocktail of future unrepresentative economic influence.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> Your post appears to imply that this government is doing a wonderful job.
> 
> Yet in post 3995 you described the government as 'politically incompetent'.
> 
> So which are they in your opinion? Are they wonderful or are they incompetent?




I keep hearing here how Australia is doomed and everyone is leaving but if we have an election then its all going to some how become a magical fairly land once Abbott takes over.

You all seem to believe Abbott on how bad Australia is at the moment with his continued phoney attack.

So to stay with the facts


Low inflation 
Low unemployment
Low interest rates
Low debt to GDP 


How will Abbott / Hockey make this better

Stop the Boats............that wont change SFA
Remove the carbon tax........nope that wont greatly affect much........remember we already know up to 80% electricity rises are out side of the tax?
How about kill the mining tax................remember the federal budget is already in revenue decline (Costello / Howard GST black hole)
Cut business taxes...............refer to the above. 
Sack multitudes of public servants to save what?.................current numbers at 1990's levels WTF. What happens here is they all come back as consultants at double the price refer to WA state coalition government for further evidence.


And yes current labor are politically incompetent, how Labor haven't been able to nail a complete lying tosser like Abbott will be forever the shame of this current labor party leadership.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> I keep hearing here how Australia is doomed and everyone is leaving but if we have an election then its all going to some how become a magical fairly land once Abbott takes over.



It would be a magical fairly land if Daffy Duck took over in comparison to the present administration.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> And yes current labor are politically incompetent, how Labor haven't been able to nail a complete lying tosser like Abbott will be forever the shame of this current labor party leadership.



You can complain about TA all you like.

It's the current government that's paving his way to office.


----------



## Ves

sinner said:


> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/
> 
> and to head off any
> "they've got bigger fish to fry" or "they wouldn't spy on me" ...lol you're 6 years too late
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A



Thanks sinner - but why would the NSA care about propaganda chain mails to do with Australian politics that bare no resemblance to a threat to the US government or its people?  They're not scanning for that sort of thing. Fact is, it'd be very easy to type up a chain letter on your laptop, walk into a random cafe offering Wi-fi and spread it to public networking sites.  Exactly like the one that sparked this discussion.  

The NSA has great technology, and they put on a scary face - but the fact is there is still plenty of computer crime  (see Anonymous for one - if it was that easy to catch them why are they still around, unidentified?), inflammatory political material and all sorts of "dangerous" information floating around the internet.  

We're way off-topic here, and if I've said pretty much all I can say.  Back to bashing Abbott / Gillard / whoever.


----------



## sinner

Ves said:


> Thanks sinner - but why would the NSA care about propaganda chain mails to do with Australian politics that bare no resemblance to a threat to the US government or its people?  They're not scanning for that sort of thing.




Wrong.




> Fact is, it'd be very easy to type up a chain letter on your laptop, walk into a random cafe offering Wi-fi and spread it to public networking sites.  Exactly like the one that sparked this discussion.




Question is whether you can do it or not without getting caught and charged under sedition laws.



> The NSA has great technology, and they put on a scary face - but the fact is there is still plenty of computer crime  (see Anonymous for one - if it was that easy to catch them why are they still around, unidentified?), inflammatory political material and all sorts of "dangerous" information floating around the internet.
> 
> We're way off-topic here, and if I've said pretty much all I can say.  Back to bashing Abbott / Gillard / whoever.




Slippery slopes always start somewhere. Your justification here does not hold water. Many Anonymous members have been subject to international raid and arrest. Read the annual Google censorship report. They monitor it all and act on exactly what they care about *today*. In 5 years it will be a lot worse.

I am just backing up sptrawler on this point, that's all.


----------



## joea

Luxbet still has Gillard drifting out slightly, with Rudd firming slightly.
No big money movement yet!

It is my assumption that this will be Gillard's last term in Parliament as PM.
So we will wait for step 1 to be completed, before we "froth at the mouth"
about an election.

What better way to treat Rudd, than to have him enforce the policy's on the immigrants that he dismantled
in his term as PM.  "Deja vu"

joea


----------



## Ves

sinner said:


> Slippery slopes always start somewhere. Your justification here does not hold water. Many Anonymous members have been subject to international raid and arrest. Read the annual Google censorship report. They monitor it all and act on exactly what they care about *today*. In 5 years it will be a lot worse.
> 
> I am just backing up sptrawler on this point, that's all.



It seems to me, the better the technology to stop info-terrorists / hackers the better they get at getting around the technology.  It's an endless loop.  I think you're right though - in five years the landscape will have changed and something has to give.  It could get very ugly.

I'm sure I have also read something about the US government spreading their own agenda in Middle Eastern countries via info-terrorism.  That's just what we know about - you cannot imagine it being the whole story, it's just the tip of the ice-berg. There's scary stuff like Stuxnet and Gauss recently.  

Yes -  members of Anonymous have been caught.  But it seems apparent that it hasn't slowed them down at all.

Sinner - in some ways  I agree with you and in some ways I do not.  Don't get me wrong I really appreciate your comments.   The issue of information and data and who controls it  (especially rogue governments) is a big one this decade.


----------



## sinner

Ves said:


> It seems to me, the better the technology to stop info-terrorists / hackers the better they get at getting around the technology.  It's an endless loop.  I think you're right though - in five years the landscape will have changed and something has to give.  It could get very ugly.




Last word on the topic, I would bring this right back to what sptrawler said. In the end, it's about physical access to the infrastructure. Sure, the internet is de-centralised, and even some of the major control points are under the influence of people who care about freedom of speech and human rights. But by majority, this infrastructure is under control of *Big* Gov. 

The only major mitigator is the economy, i.e. the tighter you control the infrastructure the harder it is for free markets to flow over the network, so they can only tighten the screws to the point of economic constriction, not further (unless they no longer care about the economy). 

I'm someone who (as a younger pup) was on the other side of the firewall. These days part of my job is keeping people like me out of really really important networks and infrastructure. I can tell you that *right now* there are already things underway to move important underworld info transmission mechanisms *OFF* networks where they can be monitored. That means the old school sneakernet, what Janes got goes to Bob over a USB or DVD where no wiretap can touch it or in the case where internet is the only viable transmission mechanism then extensive cloak-and-dagger steps are taken. In that sense you are right, there is an always an effort to "get around the technology" but we are really coming to a head now of "if your suff is on the network then it's safer to assume it's been tapped and monitored" compared to the encryption arms race that has been ongoing since the 90s. When we talk about circumvention, we are talking about circumvention post-realisation of who owns the wires.


----------



## Ves

Thanks sinner - really appreciate your replies.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> You can complain about TA all you like.
> 
> It's the current government that's paving his way to office.




Absolutely agree "political incompetence" 

But Abbott is getting a free ride as Barrie Cassidy points out not given to any other opposition leader every in the modern era.

"A rare challenge to Abbott's free pass"



> Insiders presenter Barrie Cassidy says the media has failed to hold Opposition Leader Tony Abbott to account for his prevarications on asylum seekers and the carbon tax.






> When Jon Faine interviewed Tony Abbott on ABC's 774 on Tuesday, something unusual happened.
> 
> The Opposition Leader's careless use of words was actually challenged.
> 
> Abbott, discussing the asylum seekers issue, asserted:
> 
> Frankly, we've had 22,000 illegal arrivals, almost 400 illegal boats ...
> 
> Faine responded:
> 
> They're not illegal. Tony Abbott, do I need to remind you that the use of words in this is critical? They are not illegal arrivals. There is nothing illegal about seeking asylum when you are a refugee.
> 
> Abbott:
> 
> Well, I'm making my point Jon ...
> 
> Faine:
> 
> Well, so am I making mine! And I think it's been made to you before.





When you read the threads here you will hear Abbott quotes word for word the above continuously the man is an absolute fraud and liar.

How do we know this?



> Tony Abbott did not further dispute the point. Like an errant school kid, he seemed to accept the admonishment. Yet within 24 hours, he was again referring to asylum seekers as illegals. Nobody in the media pulled him up. He knew they wouldn't. They rarely do.
> 
> For the record, he is wrong in domestic and in international law.





Then this



> Dennis Atkins wrote in the Courier Mail this week about Abbott's "relentless negative assault on the price impacts of the carbon tax", describing that, and his campaign to "brand Julia Gillard as an untrustworthy liar", as "the most reckless and audacious politicking most observers, including this one, can remember."
> 
> Atkins wrote:
> 
> The Liberal leader is taking the demeaning tactic of not caring what he says to new depths.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-17/cassidy-a-rare-challenge-for-abbott/4203120


----------



## drsmith

Again, you can complain about the TA all you like.

Julia Gillard is the one who introduced a carbon tax after she said she wouldn't.

It is also her government that is failing on border security.


----------



## moXJO

IFocus said:


> Absolutely agree "political incompetence"
> 
> But Abbott is getting a free ride as Barrie Cassidy points out not given to any other opposition leader every in the modern era.
> 
> "A rare challenge to Abbott's free pass"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you read the threads here you will hear Abbott quotes word for word the above continuously the man is an absolute fraud and liar.
> 
> How do we know this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then this
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-17/cassidy-a-rare-challenge-for-abbott/4203120




Yeah he pushes a point, I don't think lib supporters are that blind. But he doesn't cause Aboriginal tent riots with lies about what Gillard said either. 
If we opened up with all the dirty tricks labor has pulled you would more than likely vomit. I would rather see labor cleaned out this election and rebuild, then for them to still manage some kind of numbers where they can stay static.

ABC is nothing but lefties blowing hot air to save face after all their support on a disastrous government.
cassidy is a peanut in the same vein as Tony Windsor.


----------



## MrBurns

And away we goooooooooooooo........................

The ABC are running with this now, bye bye Gingeralla...............:bekloppt:



> Gillard dismisses 'malicious' Australian report
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has dismissed a report in The Australian newspaper which raises claims about why she quit her job with law firm Slater and Gordon.
> 
> The report says Ms Gillard resigned as a partner with Slater and Gordon as a direct result of an internal probe into work she had done for a former boyfriend.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-19/gillard-slams-malicious-australian-report/4208360


----------



## MrBurns

And this - 

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8518563/no-comment-on-law-firm-resignation-pm

It was a long time ago but when you're PM your past has to be squeaky clean.........not so here and this should be the final shadow over her that ends her inglorious term as PM.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> And away we goooooooooooooo........................
> 
> The ABC are running with this now, bye bye Gingeralla...............:bekloppt:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-19/gillard-slams-malicious-australian-report/4208360



There was a brief piece on the ABC's insiders on this today which showed a brief excerpt of an interview with Paul Kelly.

I havn't seen the whole interview, but on the bit the ABC did show, she didn't seem too keen to answer questions.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> There was a brief piece on the ABC's insiders on this today which showed a brief excerpt of an interview with Paul Kelly.
> 
> I havn't seen the whole interview, but on the bit the ABC did show, she didn't seem too keen to answer questions.




This is now just starting and HAS to be the last straw for her surely.
Labor will be planning her exit right now and no mucking around this time.


----------



## drsmith

Part of the exchange between Julia Gillard and Paul Kelly,



> Julia Gillard: Well, and this is the issue, isn’t it? Because I understand you’re being asked to ask questions today.
> 
> Paul Kelly: No, no, no, sorry, there’s no-one asking me to ask questions.
> 
> JG: Well, that wasn’t my advice a little bit earlier before this show.
> 
> PK: Well, I’m sorry Prime Minister, I ask my own questions and nobody tells me what questions to ask.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/

She then went on to give a lawyers defence. 



> JG: And I’ll give you an answer to them. I did nothing wrong, Paul. Have you got an allegation to put to me? If you do not, why are we discussing this?




http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3570965.htm

I can't see it standing up in the eyes of the media or the public. I think sometimes she forgets she's not in a court of law.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> This is now just starting and HAS to be the last straw for her surely.
> Labor will be planning her exit right now and no mucking around this time.




I haven't been following it much, only what's posted on here, however today it seems to getting a bit of traction in the media.
It smacks of the same missuse of union funds, very similar to the Thomson affair, it could turn nasty for Gillard very quickly. 
There is little wonder she backed up Thomson, if the allegations are found to be true.
It may end in a Royal Commission, however there would be too many caught in the crossfire, so it probably won't happen.IMO

The ironic bit is, it was only a few months ago Gillard confirmed she had instructed her staff to dig up coalition members past, to facilitate a personal attack.  Apparently that was their duty as a government to check the integrity of the opposition, well as usual it appears to have backfired as most of their ideas do.


----------



## moXJO

From the australian:


> However, he said his website was suffering an increasing number of cyber attacks trying to shut it down. On Friday the attacks were successful and his account was suspended.
> ''They may silence us for a while but the truth will out,'' Pickering says. ''Much more to come.''
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-...ot-of-smoke-20120818-24f3m.html#ixzz23xkzfku2




Wonder if that is true or not?


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> This is now just starting and HAS to be the last straw for her surely.
> Labor will be planning her exit right now and no mucking around this time.



She'd survive a nuclear holocaust I reckon, it pays to be connected. This one will be gone soon, but govt departments and trade unions teem with junior Gillards, what will be our protection from them?

I think there's a pathology at play. The story will go far beyond the next year.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> Again, you can complain about the TA all you like.
> 
> Julia Gillard is the one who introduced a carbon tax after she said she wouldn't.
> 
> It is also her government that is failing on border security.




Abbott gets a lot of things wrong, but no semantics, spin, euphemisms or political correctness, can paper over the truth that people *who enter Australia illegally are illegal immigrants.* An unlawful entry is one without an entry visa.

Anyone, whether they called themselves refugees or not, who came here by plane without a visa, would be returned to their point of departure by the next available service.



> Australia's Migration Act 1958 requires people who are not Australian citizens and who *are unlawfully *in Australia to be detained. Unless they are given legal permission to remain in Australia by being granted a visa *unlawful non-citizens *must be removed from Australia as soon as reasonably practicable.


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> From the australian:
> Wonder if that is true or not?




You can stop wondering, it is.


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> You can stop wondering, it is.




Then surely that can be investigated? (interesting to see who it leads back to)


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Again, you can complain about the TA all you like.
> 
> Julia Gillard is the one who introduced a carbon tax after she said she wouldn't.
> 
> It is also her government that is failing on border security.



It shouldn't be a competition between who is the most awful or the most deceptive.

I can't speak for others, but my criticism of Tony Abbott has no connection with a comparison with the Prime Minister or anyone else from Labor.  It's to do with my disappointment that he continues to make slogan-like exaggerated statements and doesn't seem able to balance this 'attack dog' persona with any serious discussion about his vision for Australia.  One is left wondering if he is even actually articulate enough to be Prime Minister.  We don't know, because he never speaks more than a short, punchy sentence at a time.

He's probably a reasonably decent individual and certainly adheres to the values of personal responsibility v the welfare state etc.  But then he has the ridiculously expensive middle class welfare policy on maternity leave.

Indications are that he would make more use of the Productivity Commission which would be a plus, and would make at least some alterations to the Fair Work legislation so that business is not so disadvantaged.

Most people want a government that genuinely provides the traditional fair go for all Australians.  To this end, I'd like to see the Libs be a bit more generous to people with disabilities/mental illness, and not take the current punitive attitude toward the unemployed, rather coming up with innovative programs to help them acquire the necessary skills for employment, something which seems sadly lacking at present.
So I have reservations about his abolishing the MRRT as it's hard to see so far where the revenue is going to come from to provide the tax cuts and pension increases he has promised.

I actually learned more about Mr Abbott from reading an extensive article in the "Weekend Australian" on "How would Tony Abbott Govern" than I've managed to discover from years of watching and listening to him.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ld-abbott-govern/story-fn59niix-1226452916462


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Most people want a government that genuinely provides the traditional fair go for all Australians.




Well there's only one choice Julia because the Labor Govt has proven itself to be an unmittigated disaster.

There's no one else but Tony like it or not.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> It shouldn't be a competition between who is the most awful or the most deceptive.
> 
> I can't speak for others, but my criticism of Tony Abbott has no connection with a comparison with the Prime Minister or anyone else from Labor.  It's to do with my disappointment that he continues to make slogan-like exaggerated statements and doesn't seem able to balance this 'attack dog' persona with any serious discussion about his vision for Australia.  One is left wondering if he is even actually articulate enough to be Prime Minister.  We don't know, because he never speaks more than a short, punchy sentence at a time.



It shouldn't and I see the quality of out political leaders overall as poor. It does however need to be seen in the context of politics overall. The current situation is that the current government is so poor that the slogan-like statements is enough. Labor are not testing him.

As PM, I don't currently have high hopes, but he does have the ability to suprise. He's seen the long game on asylum seekers and has all but brought Labor to its knees on this alone.

The last paragraph of the above linked article I found interesting,



> Labor voters, underwhelmed by Gillard and sensing the seismic shift under way, would now happily settle for Turnbull, even Hockey, if they had to cop a Liberal. But Saint Malcolm or Uncle Joe aren't on offer, for now, so people get ready for Barnstorming Tony: flying close to the ground, yet higher than he promised, and forever striving not to disappoint.




That might be what Labor voters want for whatever reasons, but to win office, a political party needs enough swinging voters. That's what Tony Abbott and the Coalition are interested in.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> It smacks of the same missuse of union funds, very similar to the Thomson affair, it could turn nasty for Gillard very quickly.




Well MrBurns, you may be right, it looks as though Tony is onto it. Historicaly he usually gets the timing right, so I would think Gillard is going to be under the pump.
Now we will see how nasty politics can get when you are backed into a corner.
It will be interesting to see how labor deal with it, as you say they may use it to give her 'the old heave ho'.
This issue, if proved correct will blow labor out of the water. With nothing to lose they may put themselves through a cleansing phase. LOL

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-a-union-scandal/story-fndo20i0-1226453434111


----------



## joea

Julia said:


> It shouldn't be a competition between who is the most awful or the most deceptive.
> 
> He's probably a reasonably decent individual and certainly adheres to the values of personal responsibility v the welfare state etc.  But then he has the ridiculously expensive middle class welfare policy on maternity leave.
> 
> Indications are that he would make more use of the Productivity Commission which would be a plus, and would make at least some alterations to the Fair Work legislation so that business is not so disadvantaged.
> 
> I actually learned more about Mr Abbott from reading an extensive article in the "Weekend Australian" on "How would Tony Abbott Govern" than I've managed to discover from years of watching and listening to him.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ld-abbott-govern/story-fn59niix-1226452916462




Well Julia I hope what you read is a "positive" in your mind.
Because we have to move on from Labor and the situation we are in.
I am sure that what is starting to be released on Abbott will be followed by more.
Peta Credlin is running this campaign for Abbott.
I would also like to say they are very astute in releasing info. on a specific time frame.
Why? Because Gillard will use it against Abbott.
Gillard can think very quickly when needed. Where as Abbott "chews the fat a bit more".

Hopefully Australia will be governed more competently in the near future.

joea


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> As PM, I don't currently have high hopes, but he does have the ability to suprise. He's seen the long game on asylum seekers and has all but brought Labor to its knees on this alone.



Quite true, and I'm sure he has the determination to follow through on this in government, turning back every boat if necessary.



sptrawler said:


> Well MrBurns, you may be right, it looks as though Tony is onto it. Historicaly he usually gets the timing right, so I would think Gillard is going to be under the pump.
> Now we will see how nasty politics can get when you are backed into a corner.
> It will be interesting to see how labor deal with it, as you say they may use it to give her 'the old heave ho'.
> This issue, if proved correct will blow labor out of the water. With nothing to lose they may put themselves through a cleansing phase. LOL
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-a-union-scandal/story-fndo20i0-1226453434111



On this evening's ABC Radio news, I think at 6pm, there was a brief item (leading the news) that one of the current partners of S & G here in Australia has come out and said (paraphrasing) that there was an investigation about the matters currently in the media and no reason was found to dispute Ms Gillard's assurances that she had done nothing wrong.

The item was not broadcast again at 7pm.  I was very carefully listening for the detail I might have missed earlier.  And now when I do a search on the ABC website I can find no reference to it.
I have no idea whether this is significant or not.

So maybe some strings were pulled, and the item was withdrawn?
Or perhaps the ABC just decided all on its own that no one would actually be interested????


----------



## drsmith

This is still on the ABC's website, but the article has been edited (for other reasons according to the ABC),



> Since then, the managing director of Slater and Gordon, Andrew Grech, has released a statement on the matter.
> 
> Mr Grech says Ms Gillard cooperated fully with the internal legal review and it found nothing to contradict the information provided by Ms Gillard.
> 
> He says Ms Gillard took leave from the firm to campaign for the Senate in 1995 and resigned the following year when she took up a position as a political advisor.
> 
> _Editor’s note: This story has been changed to make it clear the Prime Minister used the words “malicious nonsense” when describing claims about her resignation from Slater and Gordon, not about The Australian’s report on such matters._




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-19/gillard-dismisses-allegations-of-law-firm-wrongdoing/4208360


----------



## MrBurns

They're all treading on egg shells here, it will be like this until some journo makes a breakthrough.

Slater and Gordon are publicly listed so they have to be very careful how they handle this.

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/companyInfo.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=SGH


----------



## sptrawler

Well what is the worse that can happen? labor $hit their pants on the chance another stuff up is on the horizon.
They really are the goon show, saying they are going to dig up dirt on the opposition, when they are upto their armpits in muck. What a hoot, the goon show at its best


----------



## drsmith

I think the interview with Paul Kelly signifies the end for Julia Gillard.

Where there's smoke there's fire and the smoke was coming out of her ears. She had the last word, but it will be seen as a challenge by parts of the media and her political opponents.

The exchange only ceased when Peter Van Olsen interjected.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> I think the interview with Paul Kelly signifies the end for Julia Gillard.
> 
> Where there's smoke there's fire and the smoke was coming out of her ears. She had the last word, but it will be seen as a challenge by parts of the media and her political opponents.
> 
> The exchange only ceased when Peter Van Olsen interjected.




Like I said earlier, Abbott normaly doesn't say anything, unless he is on a winner. Time will tell but it will be nasty, Gillard in a corner won't be nice.IMO


----------



## Boggo

I wonder if our taxpayer funded ABC are going to give Glenn Milne back his job now that everyone is aware of the story
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/abc-dumps-milne-from-insiders-20110903-1jrsa.html


----------



## Boggo

sptrawler said:


> Like I said earlier, Abbott normaly doesn't say anything, unless he is on a winner. Time will tell but it will be nasty, Gillard in a corner won't be nice.IMO




As Bonaparte said "never disturb your enemy when they are making a mistake"


----------



## Country Lad

http://lpickering.net/blog/1


----------



## bunyip

Calliope said:


> Abbott gets a lot of things wrong, but no semantics, spin, euphemisms or political correctness, can paper over the truth that people *who enter Australia illegally are illegal immigrants.* An unlawful entry is one without an entry visa.
> 
> Anyone, whether they called themselves refugees or not, who came here by plane without a visa, would be returned to their point of departure by the next available service.




Furthermore, it’s illegal for anyone to employ criminals to conduct an illegal act on his or her behalf. 
People smuggling is a crime. I would think that these boat people are acting illegally by employing people-smuggling criminals to conduct criminal activity on their behalf.


----------



## dutchie

bunyip said:


> Furthermore, it’s illegal for anyone to employ criminals to conduct an illegal act on his or her behalf.
> People smuggling is a crime. I would think that these boat people are acting illegally by employing people-smuggling criminals to conduct criminal activity on their behalf.




Thats probably how the majority of Australians think of them, *irrespective* of UN definitions, political correctness,etc etc.  That's the reality.


----------



## bunyip

It’s looking increasingly likely that Gillard’s days as leader are numbered. 
Would anyone care to venture an opinion on who is likely to replace her?
Will they give Rudd the dud another chance? Or will it be Bill Short-brain or Swan or someone else?


----------



## dutchie

bunyip said:


> It’s looking increasingly likely that Gillard’s days as leader are numbered.
> Would anyone care to venture an opinion on who is likely to replace her?
> Will they give Rudd the dud another chance? Or will it be Bill Short-brain or Swan or someone else?




I think Gillard will stay on. She is pathetic and way out of her depth but there is no one better.


----------



## MrBurns

Consumer spending drops after stimulus dries up

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-20/spending-drops-after-stimulus-dries-up/4209150

Why ...it's.... it's......... *brilliant !!!* You give people money and they spend it, Abbott could never think of that I think we should vote Labor back in and they can take all the mining profits, double power prices and hand it all out so people will keep spending. What a fantastic bit of economics from the socialists.

Rich people are evil anyway so they can take all their money.........simple


----------



## Calliope

And we all know that Ms Gillard does not tell lies.



> Asked why she did not deal in detail with the allegations, Ms Gillard said "malicious and motived" people conducting an online campaign against her would not stop, "no matter what explanation I gave".
> 
> *"The truth is, I did nothing wrong," she said.*
> 
> "No one has put any direct assertion to me. You haven't done it today, it hasn't been done in the newspaper, that I did anything wrong.
> 
> "In these circumstances, why are we, 17 years later, when these matters have been dealt with on the public record for the best part of a decade and a half, still talking about this?"




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...lard-information/story-fn59niix-1226453684136


----------



## MrBurns

Slater and Gordon folded like a pack of cards.

Tony will get right into it, "is it true that home renovations at your then residence were part financed by Union funds ??????" mmmmmmmm ???????? mmmmmmmmmm??????????? well??????????????????


----------



## bunyip

dutchie said:


> I think Gillard will stay on. She is pathetic and way out of her depth but there is no one better.




I hope you’re right – she’s their best chance of losing the next election.
But surely Labor can see that Gillard is leading them over a cliff, and for that reason alone I think they’re likely to dump her just like they dumped Rudd for the same reason.
And if she starts smelling even more strongly of being involved in union corruption with her former mates Wilson and Blewitt – well.........

Whichever way it goes, I just love watching her squirm as the media and the opposition turn up the heat on her.
When Whitlam was in power I didn’t think it was possible for a politician to be more incompetent or unpopular than he was. But I changed my mind when Rudd came along. And now we have Gillard whose taken unpopularity and incompetence to new levels.
Pity she hadn’t stayed in Wales where she was born – she almost makes me feel uncomfortable about my Welsh ancestry!


----------



## MrBurns

Funny isnt it, she can always say "I was PM of Australia" but simultaneously that statement comes with a lot of shame sttached in her case.

Only people who weren't in Australia at the time would be impressed by that statement.


----------



## dutchie

Must congratulate the Rudd/Gillard governments they just doubled their successes.

Firstly Rudd made the apology and now Gillard has sizzled after him with cigarette plain packaging.

Go team Labor!


----------



## Calliope

QUESTIONS PUT TO THE PRIME MINISTER
ON FRIDAY BY THE AUSTRALIAN

• What does the Prime Minister say to the assertion that her 
actions were the subject of an internal investigation conducted
by Slater & Gordon’s then partners in 1995, culminating in a 
tape-recorded interview with Ms Gillard in September 1995 and
her subsequent departure from the law ﬁrm the following month?

• What does the Prime Minister say to the assertion that in this
1995 interview she stated that a) she did the legal and related work 
to establish the AWU Workplace Reform Association in Western 
Australia; b) that she did not open a ﬁle to do this work, which
was unusual; c) that no other lawyer at the ﬁrm worked on the 
matter; and d) that to her recollection no other lawyer
was consulted?

• What does the Prime Minister say to the assertion that in this 
1995 interview she stated that a) Bruce Wilson assisted her in
the renovations of her own property at Abbotsford; and b) that
she could not categorically deny that funds from the AWU or
the AWU Workplace Reform Association had been used to
fund part of the renovations of her own property?

• What does the Prime Minister say to the assertion that in
this 1995 interview she understood that the purpose of the
association that she had established was to hold re-election
funds for union ofﬁcials; and that it was described as a ‘slush
fund’ (contrary to the stated objects of the association)?

• What does the Prime Minister say to the assertion that in this 
1995 interview she acknowledged that she attended the 1993 
auction for the purchase of a house at 85 Kerr Street, Fitzroy 
(which was purchased in the name of Ralph Blewitt with funds 
including funds from the AWU Workplace Reform Association 
that Ms Gillard had established)?

• What does the Prime Minister say to the assertion that as a 
direct result of the ‘very serious view’ that the ﬁrm of Slater & 
Gordon took of her actions, Ms Gillard was a) forced to leave 
the ﬁrm; b) that she in fact left the ﬁrm suddenly in October 
1995; and c) that she did not have another job to go to?

• What does the Prime Minister say to the assertion that she was 
forced to leave the ﬁrm because the ﬁrm’s partners were very 
concerned by her conduct, which they regarded, among other 
things, as unprofessional and unethical; and conduct which had 
put the ﬁrm and its partners in an invidious position?

THE RESPONSE FROM THE PM’S OFFICE

• The Prime Minister has made clear that she was not involved in 
any wrongdoing, and has dealt with these allegations previously.

• The Prime Minister maintains good relations with
Slater & Gordon.
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2012/08/20/1226453/753941-aus-file-gillard-questions-pdf.pdf


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> This is still on the ABC's website, but the article has been edited (for other reasons according to the ABC)..http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-19/gillard-dismisses-allegations-of-law-firm-wrongdoing/4208360



..Managing Director of Slater and Gordon, Andrew Grech.. is he related to Godwin I wonder.


----------



## bunyip

More on Gillard from Pickering.

http://lpickering.net/item/17113


----------



## DB008

Abbott ejected from the house in unruly question time

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/abbott-ejected-from-the-house-in-unruly-question-time-20120820-24hvw.html




> Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has been thrown out of Parliament during question time by acting Speaker Anna Burke for refusing to withdraw unparliamentary remarks.
> 
> Mr Abbott was interjecting across the dispatch box as Prime Minister Julia Gillard answered a question on the carbon tax when he was ordered to withdraw his comments ''without qualification''.
> 
> 
> The manager of opposition business, frontbencher Christopher Pyne, and shadow treasurer Joe Hockey were also earlier ordered to leave the chamber for one hour during an unruly question time.


----------



## Ves

So much for letting her crucify herself...


----------



## Boggo

There is some great reading in Pickering's posts on FB at the moment.
Larry's latest...

_GILLARD SUPPORTER, PASCO, IS DOWN IN THE GUTTER AGAIN:

Well, well, well. The grubs are finally coming out of the woodwork now that Gillard is on the back foot. Most of you won’t know who Michael Pascoe is so I’ll fill you in.

He is a serial Left leaning grub and noted liar who aspires to journalism. He has crawled out of his hole again, this time to defend Gillard. Although I doubt even Gillard would appreciate assistance from someone of Pascoe’s ilk.

Pascoe, sacked from Channel 9, and many newspapers, is just one of the few muckrakers left who still support Gillard’s criminal history.

And why would Pasco decide to try to shoot me, the messenger? To be honest that’s all he is capable of. He has been known as an incompetent loser since I told him so to his face decades ago. Apparently he hasn’t forgotten.

He followed my six year-old home from school in order to take a photo of my home. He then lied about that to the Press Council.

He has shifted from paper to paper peddling his flawed financial advice sporting a severe bipolar disorder and with a huge chip on each shoulder.

His cowardly attack on me, as a result of my revelations about his idol Gillard, are wrong on almost every count. But that’s the frustration of Pasco. He is frustrated, old and sour because he has never been seen as a serious journo. He never will be. Serious journos don’t lie to create stories.

I will continue to bring Gillard to account despite the ravings of jealous commentators who have been unable to. And despite a failed financial commentator like Pasco who wants to protect Gillard from the truth.

I won’t dignify his drivel except to make a few points that prove his rant is sheer vindictive nonsense.

1. “Serial bankrupt”? No Pascoe. I was bankrupted once (once) by my ex’s family because I refused to pay them money that was never owed. That was 5 years ago.

2. Tomato Technologies was my son’s company that operated in the exact same legitimate way as did National Futrax (the company you happened to take a dislike to) and no, Pascoe it didn’t “fail” it was sold to another listed company. And for a tidy sum I believe. But that information belongs in your financial reports, doesn’t it Pascoe. Remember? The section where you get everything else wrong too?

3. “Stables built from arsenic treated pine”? No Pascoe. My stables were made from untreated ironbark. Perhaps you may like to have a look, they are still standing. Where do you get this nonsense from?

4. Fraud? Wrong again Pasco. I have never been involved in any fraud except to have been a victim of fraud.

5. “Rabid right”. No Pasco. You had better ask Fraser and Howard about that.

6. “Millionaire’s lifestyle”? Wrong again Pascoe. I do not own a house, I rent one and I drive an 11 year-old Jag worth around $4,000.

7. If you believe I am in receipt of any dodgy funds why not take your filthy backside down to Centerlink and explain that to them... they would love to hear from you because I am on an aged pension. Wow, defrauding the Commonwealth is a criminal offence. You could actually have me jailed, Pasco, you foul mouthed liar.

Unfortunately it is hacks like the far Left Pasco who continue to give journalism a bad name in a desperate attempt to defend Gillard.

When Gillard is gone, pickeringpost.com will happily turn its attention to rid mealy mouthed germs like Pasco from any respectable medium.

Then our newspapers might once again become reliable and accurate news sources... and without gutter snipes like Pascoe, whose only claim to fame is to defend Gillard's criminality._

and then in the Brisbane Times
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/bus...e-conman-stalking-gillard-20120820-24hxi.html


----------



## sptrawler

This whole sordid mess of misappropriation of funds will spill over into industry super funds. IMO
It has the potential of being the biggst scandal in our history!!! Jeez I hope I'm wrong but nobody seems to be keen to look into the unions and they look after a lot of workers super.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:
			
		

> This whole sordid mess of misappropriation of funds will spill over into industry super funds. IMO
> It has the potential of being the biggst scandal in our history!!! Jeez I hope I'm wrong but nobody seems to be keen to look into the unions and they look after a lot of workers super.




How depressing, she's had a lift in the polls
Are we a nation with a large percentage of brainless bogans among us ?


----------



## wayneL

MrBurns said:


> How depressing, she's had a lift in the polls
> Are we a nation with a large percentage of brainless bogans among us ?




Partly, but probably more to do with perceptions of Abbott.

IMO


----------



## drsmith

wayneL said:


> Partly, but probably more to do with perceptions of Abbott.
> 
> IMO



The Coalition is yet to fully prosecute its case for government. How successfully it does this will ultimately determine the scale of its victory.

I note that the Coalitions's primary vote held steady at 45% while Labor's rose from 33% to 35%. Labor at least at face level took a tougher stance on border protection last week and I suspect that this is in part responsoble, regardless of the backflip. In that regard, it is perhaps like when Kevin Rudd challenged Julia Gillard for PM. Ugly, but here was a bounce in their polling then too, but that faded after Kevin Rudd's challenged faltered.

The latest Essential Media poll is at odds with Newspoll's trend so it will be interesting to see what Nielsen comes out with.


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> How depressing, she's had a lift in the polls
> Are we a nation with a large percentage of brainless bogans among us ?




They couldn't stay as low as they were imo. They will probably drop again after this latest revelation.


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> They couldn't stay as low as they were imo. They will probably drop again after this latest revelation.




Tony Abbott is a bit off centre I must admit but I think he's decent and honest as much as you can be in politics and I suspect he may be a good PM but if I were him and I was no more popular than Gingerella I would seriously consider handing the reins to someone else. Who ? I dont know, Turnbull is soft, bring back Costello I say.

Goes to prove that you have to be pretty darn dodgy before the meatheads out there turn against you especially when there's cheques in the mail on offer and I think there's the reason she's got anyone favouring her at all.


----------



## Calliope

I think that Gillard's affair with Wilson has given her a lift in the polls. It gives them the romantic aura of a Bonny and Clyde relationship and they got away with it.


----------



## moXJO

During the 2007 election the libs got routed after releasing their policies with a "Me too" approach from labor. Labor just copied everything the libs had released. So that might be why they have held off on the big picture policy.
Small business is moving to stand behind the libs and big business will no doubt do the same. Small business has been bent over consistently by labor and there is little chance of wining them back. 

I was reading that Bosses in larger companies must push Union membership as well (or something along those lines). Probably need a top up of fees before the election to run their BS ads again.

As for tony as a man he seems like a strong person, as PM I'm not so sure on his abilities. Even some of the libs front bench. But they do $hit on anything labor has got going at the moment.



> THE whistleblower at the centre of the Craig Thomson union scandal has been referred to police in an official complaint over mysterious payments that included wages paid to the sons of her partner, a Fair Work Australia official.




True to form nothing gets done to craig, but the one that blew the whole thing open will be crucified.



> Ms Jackson yesterday appeared unaware a formal complaint had been lodged and said police had not contacted her: "They haven't spoken to me. If (anyone) has any allegations against me they should refer them to the proper authorities. Good luck to them."


----------



## bunyip

Boggo said:


> There is some great reading in Pickering's posts on FB at the moment.
> Larry's latest...
> 
> _GILLARD SUPPORTER, PASCO, IS DOWN IN THE GUTTER AGAIN:
> 
> Well, well, well. The grubs are finally coming out of the woodwork now that Gillard is on the back foot. Most of you won’t know who Michael Pascoe is so I’ll fill you in.
> 
> He is a serial Left leaning grub and noted liar who aspires to journalism. He has crawled out of his hole again, this time to defend Gillard. Although I doubt even Gillard would appreciate assistance from someone of Pascoe’s ilk.
> 
> Pascoe, sacked from Channel 9, and many newspapers, is just one of the few muckrakers left who still support Gillard’s criminal history.
> 
> And why would Pasco decide to try to shoot me, the messenger? To be honest that’s all he is capable of. He has been known as an incompetent loser since I told him so to his face decades ago. Apparently he hasn’t forgotten.
> 
> 
> 4. Fraud? Wrong again Pasco. I have never been involved in any fraud except to have been a victim of fraud.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately it is hacks like the far Left Pasco who continue to give journalism a bad name in a desperate attempt to defend Gillard.
> 
> When Gillard is gone, pickeringpost.com will happily turn its attention to rid mealy mouthed germs like Pasco from any respectable medium.
> 
> Then our newspapers might once again become reliable and accurate news sources... and without gutter snipes like Pascoe, whose only claim to fame is to defend Gillard's criminality._
> 
> and then in the Brisbane Times
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/bus...e-conman-stalking-gillard-20120820-24hxi.html




I applaud Pickering or anyone else who attempts to reveal the truth about Gillard. 

However, Pickering would like to make out that he's squeaky clean, when in fact he most definitely is not.
Contrary to Pickering's claim that he's never been involved in any fraud, Pascoe is correct in revealing Pickering's involvement in phony computerized horse racing and stock market schemes. I personally know a woman who paid almost 4 grand for one of his horse racing software programs. I told her it was a con and it wouldn't work. I kept in touch with her to see if it did. It didn't. 
The promotional video featured Pickering living the good life, driving around in a Jag and relaxing on a luxury boat while he tuned into the radio to hear 'his' horse come home a winner.....'his' horse being the one picked by his computer racing program.

Pickering was never actually convicted of fraud, or even charged with fraud to the best of my knowledge.
Our inadequate justice system makes it extremely difficult to get a fraud conviction against the con artists who come up with dodgy schemes to separate the unwary from their money. ASIC no sooner shuts down one con scheme, and next thing the conman pops up with a new one.

I’ll continue to applaud Pickerng’s efforts to bring down Gillard. But I’m certainly no fan of the man. In some of his past actions he’s shown himself to be an unscrupulous person of poor character.
For anyone who wants to Google it, there's plenty of info on the net about the various scams that Pickering has been involved in.


----------



## wayneL

Gillard woes being reported in NZ MSM FWIW


----------



## Miss Hale

Jon Faine on Melbourne ABC radio in a tizz abbout it this morning too, vigorously defending Gillard.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Partly, but probably more to do with perceptions of Abbott.
> 
> IMO





Agree and with muck racking on Gillard cannot see the trend continuing. 

I don't think Gillard's got any thing to answer to but the associated smear will damage her regardless.

Unsubstantiated allegations are a nasty part of politics unfortunately all sides participate.

Continues to be a race to the bottom.


----------



## white_goodman

IFocus said:


> Agree and with muck racking on Gillard cannot see the trend continuing.
> 
> I don't think Gillard's got any thing to answer to but the associated smear will damage her regardless.
> 
> Unsubstantiated allegations are a nasty part of politics unfortunately all sides participate.
> 
> Continues to be a race to the bottom.




wow talk about blind support, nothing to answer for?


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Agree and with muck racking on Gillard cannot see the trend continuing.
> 
> I don't think Gillard's got any thing to answer to but the associated smear will damage her regardless.
> 
> Unsubstantiated allegations are a nasty part of politics unfortunately all sides participate.
> 
> Continues to be a race to the bottom.





If she has nothing to answer, then why doesn't she authorise the release the recording and transcript from Slater and Gordon?  Surely, that would substantiate her claim that she has done nothing wrong?


----------



## MrBurns

She's a liar and a crook and a backstabber, the list goes on..........


----------



## Julia

wayneL said:


> Partly, but probably more to do with perceptions of Abbott.
> IMO



Agree.  If the leader of the Opposition were a more appealing choice, Gillard's rating would soon descend exponentially.


MrBurns said:


> Tony Abbott is a bit off centre I must admit but I think he's decent and honest as much as you can be in politics and I suspect he may be a good PM but if I were him and I was no more popular than Gingerella I would seriously consider handing the reins to someone else. Who ? I dont know, Turnbull is soft, bring back Costello I say.



That's pretty pointless.  Costello has made it crystal clear that he has no interest in returning to the fray.



bunyip said:


> However, Pickering would like to make out that he's squeaky clean, when in fact he most definitely is not.
> Contrary to Pickering's claim that he's never been involved in any fraud, Pascoe is correct in revealing Pickering's involvement in phony computerized horse racing and stock market schemes.



Yes, my money in the honesty stakes would be on Michael Pascoe every time.




IFocus said:


> Agree and with muck racking on Gillard cannot see the trend continuing.
> 
> I don't think Gillard's got any thing to answer to



You really don't think she had the faintest idea that her boyfriend was engaging in corruption?



> but the associated smear will damage her regardless.



As it should, imo.



> Continues to be a race to the bottom.



Agreed.  So depressing.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Agree.  If the leader of the Opposition were a more appealing choice, Gillard's rating would soon descend exponentially.
> 
> That's pretty pointless.  Costello has made it crystal clear that he has no interest in returning to the fray.
> 
> 
> Agreed.  So depressing.




It is strange that no matter how bad a government is and how nasty and unscrupulous the leader is. That is overlooked as long as you can run a smear campaign on the opposition leader.
Obviously the pommie has got it right.LOL


----------



## Glen48

If you want to know how USA is travelling have a look.
Aussie's will be next.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/us_debt/us_debt.html


----------



## Logique

In case of emergency, break glass, read message.

Message: say attacks are gender based. 

What's the excuse with Craig Thomson. Brendan Nelson. Peter Slipper.


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> In case of emergency, break glass, read message.
> 
> Message: say attacks are gender based.
> 
> What's the excuse with Craig Thomson. Brendan Nelson. Peter Slipper.




Yes what a crock, why dont these people run the country properly instead of spending all day in attack mode defending themselves, that's all they do all day, plot, attack and defend, while pensioners eat cat food and homeless people sleep under newspapers.


----------



## Julia

Cat food is actually quite expensive.  Have you ever actually known a pensioner who ate it?


----------



## sails

sails said:


> If she has nothing to answer, then why doesn't she authorise the release the recording and transcript from Slater and Gordon?  Surely, that would substantiate her claim that she has done nothing wrong?




It seems that some of the interview has been released and confirms that no file was opened.  And Gillard can’t categorically rule out if union money was used to pay for her renovations.  If you are pay for things from your own bank account, then surely there should be no doubt?  Seems very strange, imo:

Andrew Bolt has some of the interview on his blog: AWU scandal: the Gillard interview

And more comments here: The AWU scandal: What Gillard’s 1995 interview reveals/


----------



## drsmith

The Greens are now worried enough to jump to Julia Gillard's defence.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...tand-on-law-firm/story-fn59niix-1226455737631


----------



## Miss Hale

sails said:


> It seems that some of the interview has been released and confirms that no file was opened.  And Gillard can’t categorically rule out if union money was used to pay for her renovations.  If you are pay for things from your own bank account, then surely there should be no doubt?  Seems very strange, imo:
> 
> Andrew Bolt has some of the interview on his blog: AWU scandal: the Gillard interview
> 
> And more comments here: The AWU scandal: What Gillard’s 1995 interview reveals/




If that transcript is to be believed there is certainly something odd going on.  Just the fact that her boyfriend started renovations on her place while she was away on holiday (without her approval) seemed very strange to me.  I would have been furious is someone had done that to me


----------



## Glen48

Here is a bit more to chew on:

ome Live Gallery Blog About Contact Part III



IS OUR PRIME MINISTER A CROOK?:



It was a warm Sunday morning in Fitzroy in late 1992.



Bill Shorten and his lover Nicola Roxon had struggled out of bed late and were heading up Brunswick Street for breakfast when Bill noticed a couple they knew having coffee opposite.



They waved, crossed the road, and sat down with Julia Gillard and Bruce Wilson. The conversation concerned no more than the weather but Julia was overtly gesticulating with her left hand. It bore a sizable stone in a white gold ring. “You guys are engaged!” exclaimed Bill. Julia blushed. Nicola looked askance at Bruce.



Julia was excited, in love, and it showed. But Nicola was aware that Bruce was bedding a number of other women, and it showed too, as she lowered her head and glared at Wilson. Wilson was known in AWU circles as “Wilson the Rooter”.



To understand Julia Gillard we must first visit her history.



It was impeccably Left. During her time at the University of Melbourne from 1982 to 1991 she was an active member of, and helped incorporate, the “Socialist Forum” (later to become the Fabian Society) an unabashed Communist organisation backed by none other than the infamous Bill Hartley and well-known Communist activists, Mark and Bernie Taft.



The “Forum’s” main role was to apply pressure within the ALP to adopt radical Communist policies.



Gillard’s commitment to the cause had led her to convince her parents, who were avid Dustan supporters, to join the South Australian Communist Party.



Gillard claims she does not recall her advocacy for redistribution of income and many other Communist aims although she was Public Officer, Secretary, and legal adviser on the drafting of the “Socialist Forum’s” Constitution.



Her compatriot, Phil Hind, regularly visited the former Soviet Union and returned to zealously promote the radical “reforms” of the Kremlin.



Gillard openly experimented sexually with other women but her main calling was to men.



She left The University of Melbourne to join the Left wing Law firm Slater & Gordon. A firm she was later to be sacked from for “indiscretions”.



Bruce Wilson was a well-practised AWU thug who extorted major developers. AWU members’ dues also found their way to his own private piggy bank.



Wilson now needed Gillard. She was the perfect target and he had carefully cultivated her for reasons other than his regular hormonal flushes.



The $17,000 of union funds he had spent at Town Mode Fashions wasn’t solely for the benefit of Gillard.



Wilson needed an industrial lawyer who would turn a blind eye and feign innocence when setting up fraudulent AWU accounts.



He also needed a fall guy called Ralph Blewitt. Gillard was later to draw up a Power of Attorney so as Wilson could act for Blewitt. Blewitt trusted him. He should not have.



Ralph Blewitt sent me this only this morning:



G'day Larry.



So we must fly a rebel flag,



As others did before us,



And we must sing a rebel song



And join in rebel chorus.



We'll make the tyrants feel the sting



O' those that they would throttle;



They needn't say the fault is ours



If blood should stain the wattle!"



Henry Lawson.



Regards Ralph.





Gillard’s current claims of “young and naive” do not apply to her complicity in widespread fraud. Those claims apply solely to Wilson’s false declarations of love for her.



As partner in the law firm it would be stupid as Prime Minister to suggest she was “young and naive” when she was clearly instrumental in the blatant fraud. She has not denied her complicity but claims she didn’t know what it was for. Mmmm, ok.



But Julia should not feel lonely. Wilson defecated on everyone he met.



Slater & Gordon aided and abetted the fraud. The AWU sacked the law firm and turned to the other infamous Left wing Law firm, Maurice Blackburn, where Bill Shorten and Nicola Roxon were resident.



It is Slater & Gordon’s ex- and current employees who are now daily leaking devastating information on the activities of this listed law firm. The ASX and ASIC will no doubt be taking an interest.



In Part IV, the AWU divides into two camps: Kernohan and Cambridge want the fraud exposed. Shorten wants it covered up. Shorten wins, for now. And we find out where Paul Howes sits and if his “zero tolerance for union corruption” is mere bluster in the pursuit of self preservation. Regardless, with what is about to be exposed, Gillard’s tenure can now be measured in weeks.


----------



## drsmith

Paul Kelly's not backing down.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...public-spotlight/story-e6frg74x-1226455236267


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Paul Kelly's not backing down.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...public-spotlight/story-e6frg74x-1226455236267



Subscription is required to read the full article above.
Here is link to full article.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...public-spotlight/story-e6frg74x-1226455236267

Excellent that Paul Kelly has now provided the actual questions Ms Gillard should answer.  This is what Mr Abbott was unable to come up with on "7.30" this evening.

As Paul Kelly says, they are absolutely legitimate questions.
We will see whether Ms Gillard manages to answer them.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Subscription is required to read the full article above.
> Here is link to full article.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...public-spotlight/story-e6frg74x-1226455236267
> 
> Excellent that Paul Kelly has now provided the actual questions Ms Gillard should answer.  This is what Mr Abbott was unable to come up with on "7.30" this evening.
> 
> As Paul Kelly says, they are absolutely legitimate questions.
> We will see whether Ms Gillard manages to answer them.




Even the SMH is saying there is grounds for an independent investigation into unions. Wouldn't that be a hoot, I bet it would fill the news report for the next 12 months.
Bring it on a Royal Commission into union financial conduct, I reckon it would be the story of the century.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/edito...edia-social-and-otherwise-20120822-24m86.html


----------



## sptrawler

Strap yourself in for the backlash.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...in-annual-profit/story-fndo1yus-1226455971496

My guess is, this is the first of many announcements.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Strap yourself in for the backlash.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...in-annual-profit/story-fndo1yus-1226455971496
> 
> My guess is, this is the first of many announcements.




I wonder when the rusted on labor faithfull will realise, we have a double whammy of the carbon tax losing jobs in manufacturing and the mining tax hitting mining jobs( but that's o.k they will import labor).
That leads to the next problem, with a downturn in commodity prices, will they get rid of the imported labour or the local labour.LOL,LOL,LOL
The coalition could never get away with this, it is so funny.


----------



## joea

sptrawler said:


> Strap yourself in for the backlash.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...in-annual-profit/story-fndo1yus-1226455971496
> 
> My guess is, this is the first of many announcements.




Agree.
If the opposition cannot get an early election,it appears that Big Business will ensure they 
do not have a surplus by the next budget.

It's about time Swan appeared on the media again.
We have not heard from him much.

joea


----------



## MrBurns

This is shaping up as a nightmare inheritance for the Libs 
Around about the time of the election the local and global situations will merge in a perfect storm. 
Gingerella will have scurried off by then


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Subscription is required to read the full article above.
> Here is link to full article.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...public-spotlight/story-e6frg74x-1226455236267
> 
> Excellent that Paul Kelly has now provided the actual questions Ms Gillard should answer.  This is what Mr Abbott was unable to come up with on "7.30" this evening.
> 
> As Paul Kelly says, they are absolutely legitimate questions.
> We will see whether Ms Gillard manages to answer them.




Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, apparently Roxon is linked to the affair.
I wonder why she was so vocal blaming everyone for muck raking?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ft-slater-gordon/story-fn6tcxar-1226456182194


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> LOL you say that now, but it does reflect badly when it goes through Conroy's NBN filter, because they do know who is doing it. There is no anonymity, it all goes through the "filter"
> Checkmate.
> They don't spend this sort of money for your benefit, get over yourself.:




A bit off topic, but it does support the theory, you are being watched.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/new-law-to-control-cyber-data-20120822-24mur.html


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, apparently Roxon is linked to the affair.
> I wonder why she was so vocal blaming everyone for muck raking?
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ft-slater-gordon/story-fn6tcxar-1226456182194



Could you do a copy and paste of the article?  It's subscriber only.
As I heard this on ABC Radio there was nothing untoward about Nicola Roxon's activities here.  She was an industrial lawyer with Maurice Blackburn who handled the AWU's business after S & G lost it following the Gillard controversy.

If there's more to it than that, it would be good to make it clear what it is.


----------



## Glen48

here is some good news  for Dillard, I doubt it would ever be implemented anyway.


Should government policy be decided by an online poll?
Yes 10710
No 15721


----------



## Glen48

FACEBOOK...
JULIA IN DEEPER S^&T THAN CRAIG:

Thomson is involved in rorting $500,000 from the HSU.
Gillard is involved in rorting $1 million from the AWU.

To date, no attempt has been made by either union to recover one cent. 

As a backbencher, Thomson had no clout with media.
As Prime Minister, Gillard used her clout to kill the story... and this is how she did it:

Bruce Wilson was an AWU heavy and Gillard’s boyfriend at the time. He had been threatening developers in a thinly disguised, mob-style protection racket: Industrial peace for payment... up to $50,000 at a time. 

The payments went straight to accounts Gillard had arranged while she was still working for the Left wing law firm, Slater & Gordon.

Gillard was into the scam up to her elbows and, as she was screwing Wilson at the time, pillow talk wasn’t confined to her other sexual exploits including married father, and current, Trade Minister Craig Emerson and now Gold Coast spiv Tim Mathieson who departed the Coast leaving multiple unpaid debts.

Her part in the scam was rewarded with $50,000 of renovations to her house and a $25,000 account at a top fashion house (although one could be forgiven for thinking she never used it.)

The story broke and Gillard went into frenzied damage control.

When the dust settled, Gillard was still PM but ground-breaking journalists were sacked, News Ltd CEO, John Hartigan, resigned. Both Fairfax and News Ltd immediately spiked the story and pulled broadcasts, Andrew Bolt threatened to resign, Laurie Oakes was told, “Don’t even think about it!” Blogs disappeared in a cloud of dust. Radio jocks were instructed to drop it.

ABC and ‘The Australian’ journalist, Glenn Milne, had spent months carefully documenting Gillard’s devastating involvement. His story had been legalled and it ran in ‘The Australian’ on Monday, August 1st 2011. It was immediately pulled after one phone call from Gillard. 

Slavish supporter of Gillard, the ABC, promptly sacked Milne.

Gillard continued a barrage of phone calls to the then CEO of News Ltd, John Hartigan and there was a meeting arranged at the offices of News Ltd. What exactly was said at that meeting may never be known but it certainly didn’t resemble what Gillard said it was about.

The Leveson Hacking Inquiry was threatening to engulf Australia’s media and Gillard saw her opportunity. She used Bob Brown as a verbal battering ram to threaten Fairfax and Murdoch with an “inquiry”. Gillard herself publicly entered the fray with her now famous utterance: “There are questions that need to be answered.” That statement was carefully crafted to put the fear of God into the media. After much questioning she has refused to say what those questions might be.

A Leveson-style inquiry here would mutilate the very core of Australia’s media and their executives as it has, and is still doing, in the UK. 

Fairfax and Murdoch executives, to put it bluntly, were ****ting themselves. Their indecent grappling for a piece of an ever-decreasing circulation market-share would have opened an ugly can of worms. A can I will let sit for another time. 

So, this squalid deal was done but the sordid tale still bubbles below the surface. It reaches to the very heart of the Labor movement. We are witnessing only the tip of unions’ mob-like protection rackets and their corrupt manipulation of our Parliaments.

This shameful story will eventually be told in full colour. It will be a long and agonising read.


----------



## Glen48

My CV.


----------



## IFocus

Muck raking continues but back down by The Australian



> Apology to the Prime Minister
> 
> From: The Australian
> August 23, 2012 10:05AM
> 
> 
> AN article in today's The Australian reported that Prime Minister Julia Gillard had set up a trust fund for her then boyfriend 17 years ago.
> 
> This is wrong.
> 
> The Australian apologises for the error.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/apology-to-the-prime-minister/story-e6frg6n6-1226456413608


----------



## joea

Between now and the next election, the majority will be telling the Government
how to run this country and not the Minority.

Trust me on that!!

joea


----------



## joea

IFocus said:


> Muck raking continues but back down by The Australian
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/apology-to-the-prime-minister/story-e6frg6n6-1226456413608




Nobody in this country understands and knows what Gillard did in relation with the above.
But I can ensure you Labor and Gillard were at the end of the handout!!
joea


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Muck raking continues but back down by The Australian






Yes it's a bit of a laugh really, it was only a few months ago that Labor were full steam ahead for building dirt files on the opposition.LOL
If I remeber correctly, I think we said they should clean up their own backyard first.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Muck raking continues but back down by The Australian
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/apology-to-the-prime-minister/story-e6frg6n6-1226456413608



I doubt this will be the end of it. By her own admission, it was indeed a slush fund.

Beyond that, I don't know what News was up to. Perhaps it over-reached in trying to draw her into making a statement.


----------



## sptrawler

Hey IFocus and So_Cynical, If the resources boom is over, as Ferguson says and manufacturing is stuffed due to the impost of the carbon tax.
Where do we go from here, you two have all the answers as to labors stupid policy, so what's next.LOL,LOL
Oh and I forgot to mention Labor gave the go ahead to bring in cheap labour, for the shortage that isn't there.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Where do we go from here, you two have all the answers as to labors stupid policy, so what's next.LOL,LOL



TA I suspect would be spot on in what he says in the following interview if Labor and the Greens were given enough time. He was after all spot on with Labor and the carbon tax during the 2010 campaign.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-23/abbott-now-says-he-did-read-bhp-statement/4217680

The Carbon tax will also be applied to transport fuels in 2014, conveniently after the next election.

Labor knows it will bite. That after all is its purpose.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Muck raking continues but back down by The Australian
> 
> 
> 
> Apology to the Prime Minister
> 
> From: The Australian
> August 23, 2012 10:05AM
> 
> 
> AN article in today's The Australian reported that Prime Minister Julia Gillard had set up a trust fund for her then boyfriend 17 years ago.
> 
> This is wrong.
> 
> The Australian apologises for the error.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/apology-to-the-prime-minister/story-e6frg6n6-1226456413608
Click to expand...



Perhaps it was a misprint - didn't Gillard call it a "slush" fund?  "Trust" fund actually sounds much more respectable...

We have managed a trust fund when managing units some time ago and the rules are very strict with spot audits and every receipt must be kept and books reconciled monthly.  

Whereas a "slush" fund seems to be a much looser arrangement.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Perhaps it was a misprint - didn't Gillard call it a "slush" fund?  "Trust" fund actually sounds much more respectable...
> 
> We have managed a trust fund when managing units some time ago and the rules are very strict with spot audits and every receipt must be kept and books reconciled monthly.
> 
> Whereas a "slush" fund seems to be a much looser arrangement.




You are spot on sails, this morning Conroy kept harping on about, even he had a re-election fund, that he put money in.
What the reporter didn't focus on enough was, it wasn't a re-election fund it was a safety fund if I heard it right.
Also how much of their own money did they put in?


----------



## Julia

Glen48 said:


> FACEBOOK...
> JULIA IN DEEPER S^&T THAN CRAIG:



Who is this from?  Just saying it was on Facebook places no onus on the writer to take responsibility for this stuff, much of which seems libellous to me.
I just don't understand how anyone can make allegations like this without having to back them up with some valid evidence.
The last person I'd want to defend is Julia Gillard, but surely scurrilous unproven accusations like this are a step too far?



> Bruce Wilson was an AWU heavy and Gillard’s boyfriend at the time. He had been threatening developers in a thinly disguised, mob-style protection racket: Industrial peace for payment... up to $50,000 at a time.



Evidence to show this?



> The payments went straight to accounts Gillard had arranged while she was still working for the Left wing law firm, Slater & Gordon.
> 
> Gillard was into the scam up to her elbows and, as she was screwing Wilson at the time, pillow talk wasn’t confined to her other sexual exploits including married father, and current, Trade Minister Craig Emerson and now Gold Coast spiv Tim Mathieson who departed the Coast leaving multiple unpaid debts.
> 
> Her part in the scam was rewarded with $50,000 of renovations to her house and a $25,000 account at a top fashion house (although one could be forgiven for thinking she never used it.)



Again, where is the proof?  



> A Leveson-style inquiry here would mutilate the very core of Australia’s media and their executives as it has, and is still doing, in the UK.



Why would it?  The journalists in the UK had been involved in despicable behaviour and are being appropriately dealt with as a result.
There is no evidence of any such behaviour by Australian journalists so why would an enquiry here "mutilate the very core of Australia's media"?
Such overblown hyperbolic language.



> Fairfax and Murdoch executives, to put it bluntly, were ****ting themselves. Their indecent grappling for a piece of an ever-decreasing circulation market-share would have opened an ugly can of worms. A can I will let sit for another time.



That, at least, is a relief.



> So, this squalid deal was done but the sordid tale still bubbles below the surface. It reaches to the very heart of the Labor movement. We are witnessing only the tip of unions’ mob-like protection rackets and their corrupt manipulation of our Parliaments.
> 
> This shameful story will eventually be told in full colour. It will be a long and agonising read.



Wonderful.  I can't wait.  In the meantime, whoever wrote this apparently has to answer to no one, despite making some very nasty allegations.  Is this our definition of 'free speech'.  It's not mine.



Glen48 said:


> My CV.
> 
> View attachment 48700



Where did this come from?



joea said:


> Nobody in this country understands and knows what Gillard did in relation with the above.
> But I can ensure you Labor and Gillard were at the end of the handout!!
> joea



If you can assure us of that, joe, you should be prepared to put up the proof.

I never thought it would happen, but I'm just about in the same camp as Wayne Swan over all this sordid muckraking (his expression).  It's one thing to expose wrongdoing, but these unproven, unsubstantiated allegations for political purposes are the sort of behaviour we should all be trying to avoid imo.

Even The Australian, whose editorial policies I usually thoroughly respect, has gone too far and as a result had to publish an apology.




drsmith said:


> The Carbon tax will also be applied to transport fuels in 2014, conveniently after the next election.
> 
> Labor knows it will bite. That after all is its purpose.



Yes, of course.  For Labor to continue to harp on about harmless the carbon tax is makes no sense in the face of their 'compensating' most of the electorate.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> I doubt this will be the end of it. By her own admission, it was indeed a slush fund.
> 
> Beyond that, I don't know what News was up to. Perhaps it over-reached in trying to draw her into making a statement.





After running the press gallery out of questions yesterday and calling the attacks what they are some thing that Abbott is totally unable to do BTW cannot even do a simple 7.30 interview again she has nothing to answer to.

Jeezzess you would think Abbott could do an interview surely fact is he is running around the country telling porkies and he knows it. 

If there was any thing out there on Gillard the coalition would be all over her in the house.

Pickering also got a serve of what he deserves.


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> After running the press gallery out of questions yesterday and calling the attacks what they are some thing that Abbott is totally unable to do BTW cannot even do a simple 7.30 interview again she has nothing to answer to.
> 
> Jeezzess you would think Abbott could do an interview surely fact is he is running around the country telling porkies and he knows it.
> 
> If there was any thing out there on Gillard the coalition would be all over her in the house.
> 
> Pickering also got a serve of what he deserves.




Her spin doctors are better than his. 



> In her answers yesterday, the Prime Minister deftly moved the goalposts. It was a legalistic answer, a duck-and-weave that takes a minute or two to see as such.
> 
> Gillard said: "My understanding of the purpose of this association was to support the re-election of union officials who would run a campaign saying that they wanted re-election because they were committed to reforming workplaces in a certain way, to increasing occupational health and safety, to improving the conditions of the members of the union. That was my understanding of the purpose of the association, and so I provided legal advice for the association."
> 
> There it is. If Gillard had given the WA government agency the same answer as she gave yesterday, the bureaucrats in Perth would likely have rejected the application outright. They would have seen it for what it was: a "slush fund" for the purpose of raising funds for the election of union officials.
> 
> *Gillard's explanations on this will raise more questions about trust, integrity and professionalism*.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h-the-slush-fund/story-e6frgd0x-1226457009838


----------



## drsmith

Are the economic chickens starting to come home to roost ?



> Mr Redican said the severity of the price falls since May of the two commodities, which together account for 40 per cent of Australia's export income, meant that the terms of trade did not rise at all in 2011-12 and were facing a fall of about 11 per cent this year, provided there was no further deterioration in prices.
> 
> The budget papers include Treasury's estimate of what would happen to the budget bottom line if the terms of trade were weaker than expected, showing a four percentage point fall would take $3.4bn from the bottom line. If there were no recovery in prices, this suggests the revenue shortfall would be about $7bn.
> 
> However, Mr Redican said the sharp falls in iron ore and coal prices meant the damage to revenue would be greater than Treasury estimates because the mining tax was exclusively dependent on iron ore and coal prices, while they were also the biggest source of company tax from the resource sector.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...l-iron-ore-slump/story-fn59niix-1226457049108


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> After running the press gallery out of questions yesterday and calling the attacks what they are some thing that Abbott is totally unable to do BTW cannot even do a simple 7.30 interview again she has nothing to answer to.
> 
> Jeezzess you would think Abbott could do an interview surely fact is he is running around the country telling porkies and he knows it.
> 
> If there was any thing out there on Gillard the coalition would be all over her in the house.
> 
> Pickering also got a serve of what he deserves.





Why would Gillard call a press conference to talk about refugees and then hit the unprepared journalists with the opportunity to ask questions about her past?  Surely this raises more questions.  Was she afraid they would come up with questions she couldn't answer if they were briefed before coming?  Would better informed journalists have attended?



> And it was a masterstroke to spring the press conference on journalists who thought they were there for an announcement on the new refugee intake, and then stand there until the questions from the largely unprepared petered out in the only opportunity Gillard says she’ll ever give them.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...iant_except_for_the_bit_about_the_real_issue/


----------



## Miss Hale

Gillard lost all credibility for me when she siad the attack was misogynist


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> Why would Gillard call a press conference to talk about refugees and then hit the unprepared journalists with the opportunity to ask questions about her past?  Surely this raises more questions.  Was she afraid they would come up with questions she couldn't answer if they were briefed before coming?  Would better informed journalists have attended?




The Australian gave her the opening by calling the fund she set up for Wilson as a "trust" fund instead of "slush" fund, and then apologising. She called the conference  rather than make a statement in the House because there are no rules against misleading the Press Gallery. Did you listen to Late Line last night?



> TONY JONES: Yeah, Sid Maher, when you run a series of stories like this, especially when you take on someone as powerful as a prime minister, it can end up a little bit like a prize fight, and so to continue that analogy, did The Australian let its guard down today when it published the allegation once again that Julia Gillard had set up a trust fund for her boyfriend, or former boyfriend, 17 years ago?
> 
> SID MAHER: Look, Tony, The Australian made a mistake on a colour story about her ex-boyfriend that was published on page six. It was written by a journalist that has not been the lead author of the investigation. And the mistake was immediately corrected and an apology issued. I don't think that that particular ...
> 
> TONY JONES: *Did it shift the momentum away, because it certainly created momentum for the Prime Minister. I mean, she leapt on top of that. It became the whole rationale for doing this press conference in the first place.
> 
> SID MAHER: I don't think - I think what the Prime Minister said today basically confirmed everything that Hedley's been writing over the last week
> 
> TONY JONES: Yeah, I think I heard you - it sounded like your voice anyway, Sid Maher, suggesting or arguing with Julia Gillard that if the reporter had written "slush fund" instead of "trust fund", he'd have no problems.
> 
> SID MAHER: I think that's probably right, Tony.*




http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3574819.htm


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> The Australian gave her the opening by calling the fund she set up for Wilson as a "trust" fund instead of "slush" fund, and then apologising.



So, that's what happened.

It's somewhat ironic that slush fund is preferrable to trust fund. Slush decribes well the current union/Labor culture towards members and the electorate at large.

Someone at News would have ended up with a very sore bum.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Gillard lost all credibility for me when she siad the attack was misogynist




Exactly, if a man was stuffing things up the way she is he'd be well gone.............like Rudd

This has nothing top do with sex and everything to do wirh arrogant incompetance and lies.


----------



## Surly

Gillard seems to treat every interview or exchange in parliament like either a legal battle or university debate.

While I am sure she did very well in both of these pursuits she forgets that she will not be judged by a judge but by the voting public. As one of said voting public I am sick to death of spin, deflection, dogma and catchphrase answers. If you are asked a question answer the bloody thing!

The next political leader to stand up with credibility and honesty will be in power for quite some time...but not likely in my lifetime.

cheers
Surly


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> Gillard lost all credibility for me when she siad the attack was misogynist



My impression was that she said that in the context of Larry Pickering who had made some gratuitous and unproven remarks about her sexual preferences.


----------



## Julia

Surly said:


> The next political leader to stand up with credibility and honesty will be in power for quite some time...but not likely in my lifetime.
> 
> cheers
> Surly



+1.   Unfortunately politics on all sides has descended into a race to the bottom.  They are shameless in their lack of integrity.  Truly depressing


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Why would Gillard call a press conference to talk about refugees and then hit the unprepared journalists with the opportunity to ask questions about her past?  Surely this raises more questions.  Was she afraid they would come up with questions she couldn't answer if they were briefed before coming?  Would better informed journalists have attended?



Unprepared journalists?  This story has been all over the blogosphere for months, and in the Australian for weeks, then all the rest of the mainstream media for at least a week.
If any journalist was not fully across it and able to ask any relevant questions, he/she should be sacked.

She answered questions for an hour and - at least as I heard it - exhausted the questions.

The next poll will be interesting, with Mr Abbott's dismal performance on 7.30 and Ms Gillard's more impressive effort yesterday.


----------



## Calliope

The Canberra Press Gallery is in the main Gillard friendly. I would have asked her how she, at the age of 35 could be considered "young and naive." Apparently this was her only defence for setting up a slush fund for her lover.  As far as youth and naivety and ethics go I would put her on a par with Pickering. They obviously hate each other. With good reason.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> The next poll will be interesting, with Mr Abbott's dismal performance on 7.30 and Ms Gillard's more impressive effort yesterday.



I don't expect to see a lot of change in 2PP in the next Newspoll. The last one was allready somewhat at odds with Essential Media.

TA's had a bad week and JG a better one, but with the latter, a slush fund is still a slush fund and that only reinforces the past union management issues surrounding Craig Thompson.

That being said, TA will slip behind JG as preferred PM.


----------



## Miss Hale

Julia said:


> My impression was that she said that in the context of Larry Pickering who had made some gratuitous and unproven remarks about her sexual preferences.




Gratuitous and unproven remarks about someone's sexual preferences can be made to someone of either sex, that is not sexist or misogynist IMO. When people make these sort of remarks about men I never hear them play the sexism card.


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> Gratuitous and unproven remarks about someone's sexual preferences can be made to someone of either sex, that is not sexist or misogynist IMO. When people make these sort of remarks about men I never hear them play the sexism card.



Fair enough.  However, I've never heard any media commentator pejorativelysuggest any male member of parliament has experimented with homosexuality before settling on being heterosexual.
I think anyone in receipt of such a comment has a right to react to it with more than a bit of irritation.
Personally, I think any comments about the sexual preference of any public figure are entirely gratuitous and in bad taste.

Do you really think Larry Pickering would have made an equal comment about Tony Abbott having similarly experimented with homosexuality?  I doubt it very much indeed.  So to that end, Ms Gillard may have some justification in her comment about it being a mysogynistic remark.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Fair enough.  However, I've never heard any media commentator pejorativelysuggest any male member of parliament has experimented with homosexuality before settling on being heterosexual.
> I think anyone in receipt of such a comment has a right to react to it with more than a bit of irritation.
> Personally, I think any comments about the sexual preference of any public figure are entirely gratuitous and in bad taste.
> 
> Do you really think Larry Pickering would have made an equal comment about Tony Abbott having similarly experimented with homosexuality?  I doubt it very much indeed.  So to that end, Ms Gillard may have some justification in her comment about it being a mysogynistic remark.




Yes i think you are probably right, Julia, I feel we may have been very unjust in our assesment of Ms Gillard and her esteemed colleagues. Maybe another four years is what we deserve.LOL


----------



## Miss Hale

Julia said:


> Fair enough.  However, I've never heard any media commentator pejorativelysuggest any male member of parliament has experimented with homosexuality before settling on being ]heterosexual.




I think they would.  They have had no hesitation in exposing male pollie's sexual preferences in the past, remember that married NSW pollie who was seen in gay bars (someone Campbell I think), the press had no hesitations in printing that story.  




> I think anyone in receipt of such a comment has a right to react to it with more than a bit of irritation.
> Personally, I think any comments about the sexual preference of any public figure are entirely gratuitous and in bad taste.




Yes, I agree. But it's not sexist or misongynistic.



> Do you really think Larry Pickering would have made an equal comment about Tony Abbott having similarly experimented with homosexuality?  I doubt it very much indeed.  So to that end, Ms Gillard may have some justification in her comment about it being a mysogynistic remark.




Yes, I do if he hated Abbott as much as he obviously hates Gillard.  And if he did and Abbott were to claim sexism we would all fall on the floor laughing.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Unprepared journalists?  ....




Yes, it seems so.  Was this a deliberate ploy to make sure those who had been investigating this issue were not present?  

This from the link below:

Although the past week’s coverage had been dominated by Thomas, a multi-Walkley Award-winning investigative reporter, he was not in Canberra to ask questions and only some of those in the room had sifted through the old AWU documents…​

Is the behaviour below how a PM's power should really be used???
Excerpt from David Crowe, National Affairs Editor and reposted on Bolt's blog:

"Media management, played hard:

*Gillard had called The Australian’s editor-in-chief, Chris Mitchell, on Sunday night to find a way to end the coverage*… Previous disputes with News Limited - over reports by Glenn Milne in 2007 at The Sunday Telegraph and last year at The Australian - had led to similar phone calls. *She seized on errors and called executives and editors to shut down the stories…
*

On Thursday she finally saw an opportunity to stage a forceful attack on all the reports. Up since 4am to scour the media, the Prime Minister’s team had found an error in one of The Australian’s stories where the “slush fund” was referred to as a “trust fund” - a mistake that may seem minor but can mean the world to a lawyer.

The mistake appeared in a report by one of Thomas’s colleagues that was not central to the AWU matter… For all that, however, the problem over one short word was enough for Gillard to challenge five days of reporting…

Rather than contact The Australian *she called News Limited group editorial director Campbell Reid at 9.15am* and demanded an apology by 10am on all News websites. The Australian apologised immediately.

Preparation began for a lunchtime press conference, where Gillard would answer the assertions on condition this was the only time she took questions on the matter… And from the beginning Gillard presented her case as a response to the “smear campaign” of the far Right - or in the phrase she used later, the “misogynists and the nut-jobs on the internet”.

In a way, the wild claims of the online world became blurred with the reports of The Australian and its account of Gillard’s own words in the old transcript.

Although the past week’s coverage had been dominated by Thomas, a multi-Walkley Award-winning investigative reporter, he was not in Canberra to ask questions and only some of those in the room had sifted through the old AWU documents…

The Australian’s editors were firing off emails to the newspaper’s representatives in the press conference. But reporter Sid Maher, seated in the front row recalling the Prime Minister’s misguided accusation on Sunday that editor-at-large Paul Kelly was being fed questions about the matter by his masters, was understandably reluctant to reach for his iPhone. "​
Read more: The AWU scandal - How the media failed


----------



## Calliope

An excellent assessment Sails, of how a crafty Gillard went about demolishing the truth and giving the fawning press gallery a lesson in Orwellian Newspeak.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> An excellent assessment Sails, of how a crafty Gillard went about demolishing the truth and giving the fawning press gallery a lesson in Orwellian Newspeak.



The following is an interesting piece,



> In the 1995 interview with Gordon and Shaw, Gillard was asked about this. As part of a long response relating to a particular piece of work, she said: ''Now I believe that that must be the source of the rumour about, about the association or Bruce or the union or whoever paying for work on my house and I don't obviously, given I've been fairly surprised by events to date in relation to this matter, *I can't categorically rule out that something at my house didn't get paid for by the association or something at my house didn't get paid for by the union or whatever, I just, I don't feel confident saying I can categorically rule it out, but I can't see how it's happened because that really is the only bit of work that I would identify that I hadn't paid for.''*
> 
> In 1995, Gillard said it was possible she received a benefit but unlikely. On Thursday, she was asked: ''Can you say categorically, Prime Minister, that none of the funds in this entity were used to pay for renovations on your house?'' She answered categorically: *''I've dealt with this allegation a lot in the past and let's be very clear about it. I paid for the renovations on my home in St Phillip Street in Abbotsford.* Like millions of other Australians, I had the unhappy experience that I had a few blues with contractors along the way.''




My bolds.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...t-it-isnt-all-history-yet-20120824-24s2a.html


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> The following is an interesting piece,
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> I can't categorically rule out that something at my house didn't get paid for by the association or something at my house didn't get paid for by the union or whatever, I just, I don't feel confident saying I can categorically rule it out, but I can't see how it's happened because that really is the only bit of work that I would identify that I hadn't paid for.''
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...t-it-isnt-all-history-yet-20120824-24s2a.html





Maybe she paid for it - but she seems unclear if it was her money.


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Maybe she paid for it - but she seems unclear if it was her money.



At best, it leaves an element of doubt. At worst, it's obvious as to why she was reluctant to go there.

From an employer's perspective, would it be enough doubt to encourage her to move on ?


----------



## moXJO

Gillard performed well but it all seems very staged. She picked her moment masterfully when the Australian was made to apologize over its "trust" instead of "slush". I find it convenient that she made out that they were apologizing for the whole week of questioning, instead of just the one word. The press gallery were ambushed with the open questioning as she tried to shut down the whole episode. She then labelled everyone against her on the internet as nutjobs and misogynists (no doubt at Pickering). 

I was interested in what Pickering would have shot back at her (not a reader of his blog).
He did have some interesting questions:



1.	You said yesterday that you paid for your renovations. Why then did you previously say you couldn’t be certain that you did?

2.	You said you believed it was “slush fund”. As an industrial Lawyer did you seriously not know a “slush fund” could in no way be an Association?

3.	If you believed it was a “slush fund” why did you print on the Application Form that its intended role was to facilitate “worker safety and training”?

4.	Is it true that the four people present in the room when you drew up this document were yourself, Ralph Blewitt, Bruce Wilson and Senior Equity Partner, Bernard Murphy?

5.	An Association requires, by law, to have at least five members. Who did you nominate?

6.	When you drew up a power of attorney for your friend Bruce Wilson to act for Ralph Blewitt, why did you not inform Mr Blewitt of the mortgage, now in his name, subsequent to going to buy the house with Mr Wilson?

7.	When conducting the firm’s conveyancing (again pro bono) for the purchase and sale of the Kerr Street house, did you take note of where the money was coming from and going to?

8.	Why were the Association, the bank account, the purchase and sale of the house and the mortgage kept secret from the AWU.

9.	How could the purchase of a house be consistent with either a “slush fund” or “worker safety and training”?

10.	Why did you attempt to deliberately mislead the WA Commissioner for Corporate Affairs when setting up this Association?

11.	Why did you not inform your firm’s boss or your firm’s client, the AWU, of any of your actions?

12.	Do you agree it is your handwriting on the fraudulent form?

13.	When the AWU discovered the fraud, why did that union’s boss, Ian Cambridge, immediately sack Slater & Gordon and call for a Royal Commission?

14.	Why were you asked, by your employer, for a taped interview?

15.	After you were dismissed why did you not renew your Practising Certificate? Did you beieve you would be unable to practise again?

16.	Why is the six months subsequent to your dismissal missing from your CV?

17.	Why did your boss, Styant-Browne say, and I quote: "...the company took a very serious view of these and other matters and accepted her resignation"?

18.	What did Mr Styant-Browne mean by, “...a serious view of these and other matters?

19.	Is Mr Styant-Browne, or Mr Gordon correct?




20	Why was Senior Equity Partner Bernard Murphy asked to make a settlement and leave at the same time as yourself?

21	When your ex-Attorney General Rob McClelland stated in Parliament, “...a third party may have benefitted from...”, was this “third party” he referred to, you?

22	What did you mean by, “I was treated shabbily”, when you were asked to leave the firm?

23	You refuse to make a statement in the House. Is it true you realise it would be illegal to lie when so doing?


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> At best, it leaves an element of doubt. At worst, it's obvious as to why she was reluctant to go there.
> 
> From an employer's perspective, would it be enough doubt to encourage her to move on ?




Gillard defends her dodgy actions on the grounds of her gullibility...being young and naive. Her justification of her actions succeeded mainly because of the gullibility of the press gallery.

Her future now depends on the gullibility of the electorate. Judging by the apparent epiphany on these pages of some previous Gillard doubters, I think she is on a winner.


----------



## Miss Hale

Is this the first time ever that a slush fund has been seen in a better light than a trust fund?


----------



## drsmith

Miss Hale said:


> Is this the first time ever that a slush fund has been seen in a better light than a trust fund?



That's what our federal government has been reduced to.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Her future now depends on the gullibility of the electorate. Judging by the apparent epiphany on these pages of some previous Gillard doubters, I think she is on a winner.




Alternatively, perhaps some of us simply recognise the political reality of who is the better performer.
I long ago gave up any expectation of either truth or integrity.

Just cast your mind back to the stunning numbers once enjoyed by Kevin Rudd, all because he was a consummate performer.  The reality of his personality and his competence was a whole different story.

Acknowledging any politician's spin making skills does not imply acceptance of any offered policy or behaviour, just an unwillingness to bury one's head in the sands of optimism and denial.


----------



## sails

From Andrew Bolt: Did Gillard see this cheque?


----------



## startrader

Julia said:


> Unprepared journalists?  This story has been all over the blogosphere for months, and in the Australian for weeks, then all the rest of the mainstream media for at least a week.
> If any journalist was not fully across it and able to ask any relevant questions, he/she should be sacked.
> 
> She answered questions for an hour and - at least as I heard it - exhausted the questions.
> 
> The next poll will be interesting, with Mr Abbott's dismal performance on 7.30 and Ms Gillard's more impressive effort yesterday.




I saw the interview by Leigh Sales with Tony Abbott and was shocked by her rudeness - she was practically spitting at him.  I was impressed by his response and composure in the face of such a shocking interview.  

I also don't know how anyone can be impressed by any performance by Gillard.  She twists the truth, is devious, cunning and is not worthy of holding the position of Prime Minister of this country.  If she comes out of this affair looking good it will be mainly because of the very sorry quality of most of the journalism in our media, barring The Australian.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Alternatively, perhaps some of us simply recognise the political reality of who is the better performer




You are right. Staged performance beats morality and ethics in the political arena every time. And it does not take many people to be fooled, to swing the polls.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> You are right. Staged performance beats morality and ethics in the political arena every time. And it does not take many people to be fooled, to swing the polls.




Wether we like it or not Abbott must get some coaching, his manner and presentation let him down. Lets be honest, IMO how the nasal strine from Gillard gets through the censorship board is beyond me, yet she is seen as a better performer.
That tells me that Tony really needs to do some performance self appraisal. There is obviuosly nothing wrong with his interllectual ability and his ability to sum up the correct course of action, he has proven that on most occassions.
However dealing with a generally hostile press, he needs to be able to turn the tables and embarrass them, by expossing their rudeness, bad manners and general lack of respect. 
John Howard had to overcome the same problem and did so admirably, jeez you couldn't be more rude and biased than Kerry O'Brien, when interviewing Howard.
Maybe Tony should look through some of the old footage, we are entering the final quarter and Tony has to move on and start to demand some respect. The press at the moment are only showing respect to Gillard, god knows why.
He has called most issues right, the press has more often than not called it wrong, yet he defers to them. Why doesn't he ask the reporters a few questions on the losing calls, they've made, make them squirm a little.


----------



## sptrawler

startrader said:


> I saw the interview by Leigh Sales with Tony Abbott and was shocked by her rudeness - she was practically spitting at him.  I was impressed by his response and composure in the face of such a shocking interview.




I didn't see the interview, but it begs the question, why didn't Abbott ask her "why she felt it necassary to be so agressive"?
Maybe if he had turned around and said "If I have so much trouble with bossy women, how come I'm not taking you to task"? 
Like I said I didn't see the interview but from what I've read it flies in the face of the claims labor women make about Abbott. It probably just confirms what we know about labor women and why the labor men say nothing.
Wayne I wish I could grow a pair, has been told to shut up again.LOL
The only one with a pair, Martin, was slapped down last week and told to only speak when told to do so.LOL
When was the last time you heard from Smith, Albanese, Bowen? Actually I did see Bowen in a photo looking sick over Julias left shoulder.
No I think it is a full on Chick attack on Abbott LOL,LOL
Best he starts asking them to substantiate some of their attacks rather than try to defer to the "weaker" sex, that's the last thing they are.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I didn't see the interview, but it begs the question, why didn't Abbott ask her "why she felt it necassary to be so agressive"?
> Maybe if he had turned around and said "If I have so much trouble with bossy women, how come I'm not taking you to task"?



The question of his attitude toward women did not come up in the interview.  Probably you should watch the interview or at least read the transcript in order to draw your own conclusions about whether (a) her questions were justified, and/or (b) his answers were reasonable and appropriate.
Will be interested to hear your conclusion after you have done this.
Here is the interview and the transcript:
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3573785.htm

It was essentially about the BHP postponement announcement and Mr Abbott's contradiction of Marius Kloppers' assurance that the taxation environment was not an influencing factor in the decision, something Mr Abbott proceeded to contradict, despite admitting he had not read Mr Kloppers' remarks.
Then she went on to question him about asylum seekers.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Wether we like it or not Abbott must get some coaching, his manner and presentation let him down. Lets be honest, IMO how the nasal strine from Gillard gets through the censorship board is beyond me, yet she is seen as a better performer.
> That tells me that Tony really needs to do some performance self appraisal. There is obviuosly nothing wrong with his interllectual ability and his ability to sum up the correct course of action, he has proven that on most occassions.



Agree.  I just can't understand why he doesn't look at tapes of his interviews, together with his minders and advisers, and make some changes.  Wouldn't all the politicians routinely do this?   Perhaps Mr Abbott genuinely can't see how he's coming across?


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> From Andrew Bolt: Did Gillard see this cheque?



Where did these funds originally come from?  Was it from union dues paid by members of the union, believing their contributions were to be used for their own support and assistance?


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Where did these funds originally come from?  Was it from union dues paid by members of the union, believing their contributions were to be used for their own support and assistance?




It would seem so.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> It would seem so.



Why then are the Union not making an official complaint to the police on this?  I must be missing something.


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> Where did these funds originally come from?  Was it from union dues paid by members of the union, believing their contributions were to be used for their own support and assistance?




I believe they were from building companies who thought they were contributing to a fund to improve health and safety in the building industry. One I saw mentioned was Thiess (sp?). Even though they eventually found out their contributions were misused, they (at least Thiess) didn't request the money back.  I believe that was one of the reasons no action was ever taken.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> The question of his attitude toward women did not come up in the interview.  Probably you should watch the interview or at least read the transcript in order to draw your own conclusions about whether (a) her questions were justified, and/or (b) his answers were reasonable and appropriate.
> Will be interested to hear your conclusion after you have done this.
> Here is the interview and the transcript:
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3573785.htm
> 
> It was essentially about the BHP postponement announcement and Mr Abbott's contradiction of Marius Kloppers' assurance that the taxation environment was not an influencing factor in the decision, something Mr Abbott proceeded to contradict, despite admitting he had not read Mr Kloppers' remarks.
> Then she went on to question him about asylum seekers.




Thanks for the link to the transcript, Julia, from reading it Leigh seemed well prepared and well versed on what she was going to ask.
She also refused to let go and allow Abbott to move off her topic.
Actually a lot of rhetoric sounded similar to Gillards. Not being funny but I wonder if Leigh will get preselection.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Why then are the Union not making an official complaint to the police on this?  I must be missing something.




Julia, if you read up on it, Ian Cambridge tried and I understand he would like to see a royal commission.    I think his affadivit (or part of it) was in the link I posted with the photo of the cheque.  Both Thomas Hedley and Andrew Bolt have had a bit on it lately - would think their lawyers would be all over it before it is made public.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Thanks for the link to the transcript, Julia, from reading it Leigh seemed well prepared and well versed on what she was going to ask.
> She also refused to let go and allow Abbott to move off her topic.
> Actually a lot of rhetoric sounded similar to Gillards. Not being funny but I wonder if Leigh will get preselection.




SP, the transcript doesn't show Leigh Sales bitter face and twisted lips - she almost seemed to be spitting at Abbott.  The despise and disgust she oozed was unbelievable.  And Abbott's mistake - he hadn't read the statement from BHP.  Apparently the interview was recorded earlier in the day, so that could have been an issue.  I don't know, but I can't believe the nit picking that goes on over Abbott when Gillard and labor have blatantly deceived voters over carbon tax, legislated it and then try to make it look like it is a nothing. 

I think the anti-Abbott attacks are more about destabilising the libs and trying to drag the libs into the gutter with labor.  Abbott has his mistakes and doesn't speak well (but so does Gillard drone), but I don't get the shameful attacks for someone who seems to have very little wrong.  Pretty much bully behaviour, imo, but he never complains.

Even in the Leigh Sales attacks, Abbott stayed calm and I didn't see him become heated in his exchange.  Frustrated, yes, but he remained polite.  Most people would have been ready to swipe her she was being so rude and aggressive, imo.


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> SP, the transcript doesn't show Leigh Sales bitter face and twisted lips - she almost seemed to be spitting at Abbott.  The despise and disgust she oozed was unbelievable.




Bit over the top there I though she was pretty easy on him given he kept ducking the questions.



> And Abbott's mistake - he hadn't read the statement from BHP.




The fault was he was making claims that were untrue i.e. he is a real liar and got caught out as per Laurie Oaks column not that he hadn't read the statement.




> Even in the Leigh Sales attacks, Abbott stayed calm and I didn't see him become heated in his exchange.  Frustrated, yes, but he remained polite.  Most people would have been ready to swipe her she was being so rude and aggressive, imo.




I never saw the 7.30 live and after yours and others claims I checked it out Sales was the frustrated one as Abbott wouldn't answer the questions.

At the end of the interview Abbott knew he had blown it.


----------



## startrader

sptrawler said:


> Thanks for the link to the transcript, Julia, from reading it Leigh seemed well prepared and well versed on what she was going to ask.
> She also refused to let go and allow Abbott to move off her topic.
> Actually a lot of rhetoric sounded similar to Gillards. Not being funny but I wonder if Leigh will get preselection.




I thought that Abbott was absolutely correct in what he said regarding BHP.  As he said, all year BHP have been saying that the taxes are affecting their current and proposed investments here in a negative way and they were being extremely cautious in the statement here that they were making on the mothballing of Olympic Dam.  As reported in The Australian yesterday the very next day Kloppers was overseas telling the British the real reasons for it not going ahead.


"Despite reassuring Australians that the taxes were not to blame for BHP’s mothballing of the $US30 billion Olympic Dam expansion, Mr Kloppers referred to both when telling British media that new investments in Australia’s coal sector would not be profitable…
*   'What I am seeing on the eastern seaboard in Australia is that the coal industry has been very heavily impacted by lower prices, higher operating costs, carbon taxes and increased royalties,' he said."*


----------



## dutchie

I think Tony and the Liberal party have made a big tactical mistake. They have tried to make everything that Labor does a negative. This is not necessary as they (Labor) have done enough already to hang themselves.

We know that we want to get rid of this current government and for this to happen we need Tony to perform well. He has not recently and he needs to lift his game.

He needs to draw back a bit and not try to make Labor look bad in every way and every minute of the political spectrum. Just focus on the mistakes they have already made. Don't make any over the top statements that may not or can not be substantiated. Labor will damage themselves enough without his help. 

So chill out a bit Tony, sometimes saying nothing is better than saying too much.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> I think the anti-Abbott attacks are more about destabilising the libs and trying to drag the libs into the gutter with labor.  Abbott has his mistakes and doesn't speak well (but so does Gillard drone), but I don't get the shameful attacks for someone who seems to have very little wrong.  Pretty much bully behaviour, imo, but he never complains.




Barrie Cassidy on Insiders this morning, with the help of his panel confirmed what some posters have been saying; that while Gillard has acquitted herself well, Abbott on the other hand;

.  hates strong women, and is sexist and a misogynist,

.  has no sympathy for people with disabilities,  

. wants to cut funding to public schools,

. tells lies about the carbon tax,

. is very negative.

When Cassidy announced that the guest  would be Craig Emerson, I thought "ah - this will be interesting, we will get the views of one of Gillard's former lovers on the Gillard/Wilson affair."

However Barrie did not ask him a single question about it. Emerson was allowed an almost uninterrupted rant on Tony Abbott.


----------



## Julia

startrader said:


> I thought that Abbott was absolutely correct in what he said regarding BHP.  As he said, all year BHP have been saying that the taxes are affecting their current and proposed investments here in a negative way and they were being extremely cautious in the statement here that they were making on the mothballing of Olympic Dam.  As reported in The Australian yesterday the very next day Kloppers was overseas telling the British the real reasons for it not going ahead.
> 
> 
> "Despite reassuring Australians that the taxes were not to blame for BHP’s mothballing of the $US30 billion Olympic Dam expansion, Mr Kloppers referred to both when telling British media that new investments in Australia’s coal sector would not be profitable…
> *   'What I am seeing on the eastern seaboard in Australia is that the coal industry has been very heavily impacted by lower prices, higher operating costs, carbon taxes and increased royalties,' he said."*



For heaven's sake, Olympic Dam is not a coal mine.  Read back on this thread a couple of pages.
Mr Kloppers is referring to the eastern seaboard and the coal industry in your own quote.
Olympic Dam is in South Australia.




dutchie said:


> I think Tony and the Liberal party have made a big tactical mistake. They have tried to make everything that Labor does a negative. This is not necessary as they (Labor) have done enough already to hang themselves.
> 
> We know that we want to get rid of this current government and for this to happen we need Tony to perform well. He has not recently and he needs to lift his game.
> 
> He needs to draw back a bit and not try to make Labor look bad in every way and every minute of the political spectrum. Just focus on the mistakes they have already made. Don't make any over the top statements that may not or can not be substantiated. Labor will damage themselves enough without his help.
> 
> So chill out a bit Tony, sometimes saying nothing is better than saying too much.



+1.


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> For heaven's sake, Olympic Dam is not a coal mine.  Read back on this thread a couple of pages.
> Mr Kloppers is referring to the eastern seaboard and the coal industry in your own quote.
> Olympic Dam is in South Australia.
> 
> 
> 
> +1.




It is true that olympic dam is not subject to MRRT.

However if cashflow is decreased and assets have to be written down due to decreased valuations, this definitely decreases the ability to fund projects such as olympic dam.

So, in reality, I wouldn't be surprised if, along with the slowdown in China's appetite, the MRRT and carbon tax have helped shelve the expansion.

I just love the irony that increased supply will now be derived from places such as South America and Africa, which likely have lower environmental standards and/or increased transport emissions etc.   

What we truly need is some real, worldwide consideration, that is, if we truly believe that man is causing dangerous global warming (of which I am not yet convinced)

MW


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> SP, the transcript doesn't show Leigh Sales bitter face and twisted lips - she almost seemed to be spitting at Abbott.



I suppose we see what we expect to see.  I saw the whole interview and thought her expression was pretty much as usual, though frustrated at not getting an answer to her questions.


> And Abbott's mistake - he hadn't read the statement from BHP.



Given that he was on 7.30 as follow up to his earlier contradiction of Marius Klopper's statement that the taxation environment was not a factor in the postponement of Olympic Dam, wouldn't you have expected him to read that statement and be clear about what had been said?

And then he made a bad situation worse by the following day attempting to say he'd been answering something Sales had not asked!


> Apparently the interview was recorded earlier in the day, so that could have been an issue.  I don't know, but I can't believe the nit picking that goes on over Abbott when Gillard and labor have blatantly deceived voters over carbon tax, legislated it and then try to make it look like it is a nothing.



And they have been mightily taken to task for so doing by most of the electorate and most of the media.



> Abbott has his mistakes and doesn't speak well (but so does Gillard drone), but I don't get the shameful attacks for someone who seems to have very little wrong.



Again, not a criticism, but you're seeing what you want to.  It's not just his manner of speaking, but far more what he's actually saying, viz the above.



> Even in the Leigh Sales attacks, Abbott stayed calm and I didn't see him become heated in his exchange.  Frustrated, yes, but he remained polite.



Yes, he was polite.  But he was refusing to respond reasonably to her questions.  

Sails, can you really not see the problems in that interview?


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Barrie Cassidy on Insiders this morning, with the help of his panel confirmed what some posters have been saying; that while Gillard has acquitted herself well, Abbott on the other hand;
> 
> .  hates strong women, and is sexist and a misogynist,
> 
> .  has no sympathy for people with disabilities,
> 
> . wants to cut funding to public schools,
> 
> . tells lies about the carbon tax,
> 
> . is very negative....





haha... and they reckon Abbott is negative.  Do they ever listen to themselves?  Pot, kettle, black!


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...Sails, can you really not see the problems in that interview?





Julia, I guess you are wanting perfection from Abbott.  Who else do you suggest who is more perfect?  I know you listen a lot to the ABC and from what I hear, they spend more time denigrating Abbott than they do looking into Gillard's problems.

At this stage it's either Abbott or Gillard.  We don't have much choice and I see Abbott as way more preferable (not perfect) than Gillard.  Maybe you would rather this labor government have another term, I don't know, but it seems the majority of Aussie voters don't want our economy to be potentially crippled as time goes by with carbon tax and other unwanted legislation such as their seeming plan to silence freedom of speech.  Probably something else you don't hear from the ABC.

You seem very silent on the possible issues of Gillard's 17 years ago which probably need a royal commission and, instead, seem to spend your time bagging Abbott.  The left have been trying desperately to bring Abbott down and they have his difficulty with interviews and fluency of speech to their advantage - which they use with force.  And yet, what has Abbott actually done wrong?  He doesn't have serious questions on his past, has a loving family - all daughters which makes a mockery of the left's taunts about his being unable to relate to women.  The nasty taunts from the left seem nothing more than unsubstantiated bully behaviour.  

I suspect the left are desperate to get rid of Abbott because he is doing a good job in opposition.  The left don't want their precious carbon tax repealed, so they call for Turnbull to be leader again.  Sure Abbott could improve his speaking and interviewing skills, but perhaps this is something that doesn't come naturally and difficult to correct.  I don't know.

When he refused to go with Gillard on the Malaysian disaster, I remember you were critical of him and felt he shouldn't be playing politics.  Surely you can see now that he did the right thing?  The left have had a massively negative campaign on him which I think is way over the top and bully like.

 I don't defend him because of religion - as long as a leader does the right thing by the people, shows respect for tax payer funds and uses them wisely and respects democracy, I would say they are doing a good job regardless of their personal beliefs or lack of.  I just don't think anyone deserves to be the target of such a massively negative campaign over such silly issues.

So, it's awkward Abbott or gangrenous Gillard - that's how I see it.


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> So, it's awkward Abbott or gangrenous Gillard - that's how I see it.




The choice is a no-brainer. Some people want perfection. You and I have to settle for the cards we are dealt. As a conservative I must admit that Abbott doessn't tick *all* the boxes, but Gillard, Roxon, Pilbersek and Wong scare the living daylights out of me.


----------



## bunyip

Keith D’Lacy, former treasurer in the Queensland ALP  government of Wayne Goss, made some interesting comments on the Bolt Report this evening.

He was scathing in his criticism of the carbon tax, saying among other things that it would achieve absolutely nothing except to burden business.

He was also critical of how difficult its become in the last four or five years to get a new mining project up and running.
He spoke about the Coppabella coal mine west of Mackay which in his day took 15 months from discovery of the resource until first production from the mine. Today the average time is around five years, according to him, due to some 1500 conditions having to be met by the developer. As an example of the absurdity of some of these conditions, he gave an example where one of the conditions was that redback spiders found on the site had to be relocated!


----------



## sptrawler

Well this report just shows how paranoid labor are over their dismal time in government.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-for-abbott-on-carbon-tax-20120826-24u7d.html

That smacks of absolute panic mode, probably due to the result of the NT election.
Ifocus says labor are doing well in W.A, I would say wait for the election results before you decide.
My call is labor will be hammered, McGowan will do better than Ripper, but that is the difference between hammered and completely wiped out.
All parties have to adapt and adjust, W.A labor have done so and will get a bit of sympathy vote back, otherwise they wouldn't be a political party anymore.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Well this report just shows how paranoid labor are over their dismal time in government.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-for-abbott-on-carbon-tax-20120826-24u7d.html
> 
> That smacks of absolute panic mode, probably due to the result of the NT election.
> Ifocus says labor are doing well in W.A, I would say wait for the election results before you decide.
> My call is labor will be hammered, McGowan will do better than Ripper, but that is the difference between hammered and completely wiped out.
> All parties have to adapt and adjust, W.A labor have done so and will get a bit of sympathy vote back, otherwise they wouldn't be a political party anymore.




SP - just look at the title of that article you posted:  Labor goes for Abbott on carbon tax...

Labor seem to overlook the fact that the majority of Aussie voters never wanted a carbon tax.  Only a couple of weeks before, Newspoll showed that 59% were opposed.  Voters have long memories and will not forget.  They can blame Abbott till the cows come home, but the fact is Gillard promised no carbon tax as a pre-election commitment, backflipped without taking it to the people and then danced in parliament when it was legislated against the wishes of the majority.

And then they try to make out it is nothing and that Abbott is overdoing it.  Rubbish.  I don't appreciate paying higher electricity bills plus whatever carbon tax is adding to the general cost of living.  Abbott is right.  This is an unnecessary tax which has the potential to hurt our economy and rob working families of some of their hard earned pay.  Shameful.


----------



## drsmith

medicowallet said:


> It is true that olympic dam is not subject to MRRT.
> 
> However if cashflow is decreased and assets have to be written down due to decreased valuations, this definitely decreases the ability to fund projects such as olympic dam.



TA commented on this in a press conferenct the following day.

To me, the bigger issue for him was how he tied himself into exaggeration and contradictions than what he said specifically. When the Olympic Dam announcement was made by BHP, he could have commented about the impact of Labor's taxed on the viability of resources projects in general without referring specifically to BHP's announcement. If Labor then came after him, he could have then pointed out Labor's contradiction to Marius Kloppers after his London speech of the impact on iron ore. That does require a level of hindsight, or perhaps close enough contact between TA's staff and BHP itself.

Otherwise, he could have simply showed more discression in the battles he fights, said nothing about Olympic Dam and then jumped on Marius Kloppers comments about coal. Either way, he would have looked much better than he did.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> SP - just look at the title of that article you posted:  Labor goes for Abbott on carbon tax...
> 
> Labor seem to overlook the fact that the majority of Aussie voters never wanted a carbon tax.  Only a couple of weeks before, Newspoll showed that 59% were opposed.  Voters have long memories and will not forget.  They can blame Abbott till the cows come home, but the fact is Gillard promised no carbon tax as a pre-election commitment, backflipped without taking it to the people and then danced in parliament when it was legislated against the wishes of the majority.
> 
> And then they try to make out it is nothing and that Abbott is overdoing it.  Rubbish.  I don't appreciate paying higher electricity bills plus whatever carbon tax is adding to the general cost of living.  Abbott is right.  This is an unnecessary tax which has the potential to hurt our economy and rob working families of some of their hard earned pay.  Shameful.




Yes sails, everyone needs to just sit back a bit, take a breath. At the moment there has been a huge shift in labors stance. They are trying to distance themselves from the Greens, they are at the same time trying to consolidate a gender based upswell against Abbott. Labor have generally favourable press, so it will take a disciplined coalition to overcome the bias. 
This can only be done if Abbott can hold his own in an interview and expose the flaws in the reporters arguments. If he can't do this, the labor sympathetic reporters will just expose it and it will get worse nearer the election.
He has to get on top of it, or give the batton to someone else.

Don't get too stressed, it is only about who gets an indexed pension. The outcome doesn't change much, whoever gets in.


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> SP - just look at the title of that article you posted:  Labor goes for Abbott on carbon tax...



Immediate effect ??

Labor's digging a hole for itself there.


----------



## white_goodman

drsmith said:


> Immediate effect ??
> 
> Labor's digging a hole for itself there.




it shows the level of understanding, we wont be feeling the effects till next year, more around election time.. the notion of time-lag seems absent in their thinking. Also even if unemployment went down under the carbon tax, it means nothing if unemployment would have gone further down without it, people often cannot dissect whether something happens because of a certain policy or despite it..


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> TA commented on this in a press conferenct the following day.
> 
> To me, the bigger issue for him was how he tied himself into exaggeration and contradictions than what he said specifically. When the Olympic Dam announcement was made by BHP, he could have commented about the impact of Labor's taxed on the viability of resources projects in general without referring specifically to BHP's announcement. If Labor then came after him, he could have then pointed out Labor's contradiction to Marius Kloppers after his London speech of the impact on iron ore. That does require a level of hindsight, or perhaps close enough contact between TA's staff and BHP itself.
> 
> Otherwise, he could have simply showed more discression in the battles he fights, said nothing about Olympic Dam and then jumped on Marius Kloppers comments about coal. Either way, he would have looked much better than he did.




That's all well and good doc, however if someone has set you up, it can be hard to swim against the tide. That is unless you can BS on the run like Gillard, it must be horrific for the males who work with her.LOL,LOL,LOL
Bowen allways looks like he has just changed a $hitty nappy, I allways feel sorry for the poor guy.LOL He looks like he is going to start crying , like Albenese. Christ life must be hard under the "Chicks".LOL,LOL


----------



## drsmith

He threw himself into the river to swim against the current where it was strongest. It may not have been obvious at the surface, but he needs to be smarter than that with what he says.

I feel sorry for Chris Bowen. Perhaps he should change sides. They do that in the NT.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> He threw himself into the river to swim against the current where it was strongest. It may not have been obvious at the surface, but he needs to be smarter than that with what he says.
> 
> I feel sorry for Chris Bowen. Perhaps he should change sides. They do that in the NT.




Yes he does need to get some tuition a lot of role play and sharpen the attack.


----------



## Julia

white_goodman said:


> it shows the level of understanding, we wont be feeling the effects till next year, more around election time.. the notion of time-lag seems absent in their thinking. Also even if unemployment went down under the carbon tax, it means nothing if unemployment would have gone further down without it, people often cannot dissect whether something happens because of a certain policy or despite it..



Exactly the point I have been trying to make.



drsmith said:


> He threw himself into the river to swim against the current where it was strongest. It may not have been obvious at the surface, but he needs to be smarter than that with what he says.
> 
> I feel sorry for Chris Bowen. Perhaps he should change sides. They do that in the NT.



Chris Bowen is about the only Labor member who, despite all the odds against him, especially in the horrible Immigration p/f, I have any time for.  Perhaps also Jenny Macklin.
He has clearly had difficulty in towing the party line.  Imo he'd make a much better leader than any of those who have had a go so far.




sails said:


> Julia, I guess you are wanting perfection from Abbott.  Who else do you suggest who is more perfect?  I know you listen a lot to the ABC and from what I hear, they spend more time denigrating Abbott than they do looking into Gillard's problems.



Oh dear.  Perhaps listen to some of ABC Radio's multiple networks and you might actually know what they are like.  Quoting an impression you have is not awfully persuasive.
Certainly Radio National leans very much to the left when the topic is politics.  They do, however, have some quite marvellous programs, completely apolitical, which are far more appealing to me than most of the rubbish served up on television.

You have written several paragraphs in this post, yet none of it actually responds to my question to you:


> Sails, can you really not see the problems in that interview?




I wonder why not?




> At this stage it's either Abbott or Gillard.  We don't have much choice and I see Abbott as way more preferable (not perfect) than Gillard.  Maybe you would rather this labor government have another term, I don't know, but it seems the majority of Aussie voters don't want our economy to be potentially crippled as time goes by with carbon tax and other unwanted legislation such as their seeming plan to silence freedom of speech.  Probably something else you don't hear from the ABC.



Again another assumption on a radio network of many stations which you seem never to have actually heard.
Hardly a basis for drawing any conclusion about the ABC's attitude toward freedom of speech.
FYI I have heard many excellent programs on ABC Radio about the fundamental values espoused in allowing freedom of speech.
Have a listen some time.  Your world will expand.



> You seem very silent on the possible issues of Gillard's 17 years ago which probably need a royal commission and, instead, seem to spend your time bagging Abbott.



I try to only comment on matters about which I have a clear view and which I feel I have some understanding, viz Mr Abbott's underweight performance.
I am no lawyer.  I have never been a member of any union.  I know nothing about the requirements and norms of industrial law.  I know nothing about Ms Gillard's relationships with various men and could not be less interested in same.  Neither do I know anything about the details of her relationships with Slater and Gordon.
Therefore I do not believe I can make any credible comment on the matter.
I know this doesn't stop many others from lapping up the sordid innuendo from the likes of Larry Pickering, but it's not for me, thanks.

Spend my time bagging Abbott?   Unlike you, I am not a rusted on devotee of any political party.  If I see something which I feel like criticising, I will do so, unless otherwise instructed on this forum by its owner.
Too bad that you don't like it.
Believe me, I'd like nothing better than to genuinely feel able to praise Mr Abbott.  I detest and abhor the Labor government, everything about it, including its leader.  But that does not translate into my ipso facto declaring all is fantastic with the opposition.  Far from it imo.  So I will, with or without your permission, continue to criticise Mr Abbott until he lifts his game and behaves like a credible alternative leader.  



> He doesn't have serious questions on his past, has a loving family - all daughters which makes a mockery of the left's taunts about his being unable to relate to women.



Agreed he seems to have a happy family.  That, however, is completely irrelevant when it comes to leading the country.  Many people are good Christian family men and women.  That does not qualify them to be PM of Australia.



> The nasty taunts from the left seem nothing more than unsubstantiated bully behaviour.



You keep going on about this 'bullying'.  I know bullying is fashionable at present, but for heaven's sake, an opposition leader has to be able to deflect criticism and turn it on its head.
He's not a kid in kindy.  He's playing in the big people's schoolyard now and needs to be up to it.



> Sure Abbott could improve his speaking and interviewing skills, but perhaps this is something that doesn't come naturally and difficult to correct.  I don't know.



You discuss this as though it were a point of almost irrelevance.  It's not.  Think of all the successful leaders you have known of throughout the world.  One thing they have almost all had in common, despite variable political stances is a the capacity to capture the people's attention through their oratory.  What do you think got Barack Obama into power?  Hardly his capacity to fix the nation's economic woes!




> When he refused to go with Gillard on the Malaysian disaster, I remember you were critical of him and felt he shouldn't be playing politics.  Surely you can see now that he did the right thing?



Yes absolutely.  That's a good point.  I did feel at the time for the sake of the country both parties should unite against the Greens.  And certainly he has come out on top on this one.  But think of all the damage in the meantime.  All those thousands of asylum seekers now in the community, something you consistently point out as a disaster.



> The left have had a massively negative campaign on him which I think is way over the top and bully like.



Of course they've had a massive campaign against him.  What on earth would you expect?  They are fighting for survival.   He has been every bit as vicious in his attacking of them and their policies.
They are all of the same ilk.


----------



## sails

Julia, next time I won't take the time to respond.  I gave you an honest answer and yet you go through it sentence by sentence and pretty much rip it up.  End of discussion for me.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> I feel sorry for Chris Bowen. Perhaps he should change sides. They do that in the NT.




Yes I agree, Bowen allways seems to look as though he wishes he could say what he really feels. Poor guy doesn't look happy. I think Gillard keeps him on a tight rein, he allways looks as though he isn't far way from a spanking.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I think Gillard keeps him on a tight rein, he allways looks as though he isn't far way from a spanking.



The reminder that there's no limits at Mistress Gillard's house of discipline is the dining room picture of Kevin Rudd with a knife in his back on the wall behind where Julia sits.


----------



## Tink

Yes, I have to say, this government is really starting to stink. 
I cant believe they havent done any follow up on everything that has been happening - its a disgrace.
Julia has now become like a pitbull, attack dog.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Julia, next time I won't take the time to respond.  I gave you an honest answer and yet you go through it sentence by sentence and pretty much rip it up.  End of discussion for me.




sails, it is unfortunate there are some people in this world who never like to lose a fight, they are always right and never admit when they wrong.

As I have mentioned before, if Tony Abbott had a Pierce Bronson or a Clarke Gable image with their polished approach, the women would have his populariy up around 60%. Malcom Turnbull would run rings around both Gillard and Abbott because he is in a different mould; charming and personal. It is a pity Turnbull is so far left in his thinking  for he could have still been leader.

I know I will cop some flack on this one, but it does not worry me for I will be on the other side of the world for 5 weeks as from today.

See you all when I get back

Cheers.


----------



## startrader

noco said:


> sails, it is unfortunate there are some people in this world who never like to lose a fight, they are always right and never admit when they wrong.
> ....
> 
> Cheers.




I think you can add to that Noco* "and always have to have the last word"!!!*


----------



## Tink

Umm, I hope people didnt think I meant our Julia, I was talking about Gillard.
We are all entitled to our opinions.

Have a good holiday, noco.


----------



## startrader

Tink said:


> Umm, I hope people didnt think I meant our Julia, I was talking about Gillard.
> We are all entitled to our opinions.
> 
> Have a good holiday, noco.




No, we knew who you meant - you said in your first sentence "the government", so you had defined it.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Julia, next time I won't take the time to respond.  I gave you an honest answer and yet you go through it sentence by sentence and pretty much rip it up.  End of discussion for me.



I appreciate that you gave your honest answer.  Amongst it you criticised me for various attitudes plus made remarks about e.g. ABC Radio which you concede you don't listen to.  I have simply responded to what you said.
It's a forum.  People agree and disagree all the time.  I cannot suddenly become a Tony Abbott fan just because it would make you and a few other people happier.  Wish I could.

The Nielsen poll out today suggests I'm not the only voter less than happy with Mr Abbott.


> Assistant Treasurer David Bradbury says a new poll shows Australians are realising that the Coalition has been running a false campaign on the carbon tax.
> 
> The Herald Nielsen poll of 1,400 voters shows Federal Labor's primary vote has climbed to a six-month high and Prime Minister Julia Gillard is now ahead of Opposition Leader Tony Abbott as preferred prime minister.
> 
> Labor's primary vote rose 2 per cent to 32 per cent, while the Coalition's primary vote fell 2 per cent to 45 per cent, in a poll with a 2.6 per cent margin of error.
> 
> But Labor would still be beaten in a landslide if an election was held today, with the two-party preferred figure giving the Coalition a lead of 54-46.
> 
> The poll comes after a difficult fortnight in which the Government reinstated offshore processing for asylum seekers, and the Prime Minister defended her conduct as an industrial lawyer 17 years ago amid claims of a scandal.
> 
> Ms Gillard's rating as preferred prime minister has risen 3 points to 46 per cent while Mr Abbott's rating fell 3 points to 45 per cent.



Have a lovely holiday noco.  Re your suggestion of only a celebrity appearance appealing to women, I was very happy with John Howard as Prime Minister.  I'm sure not even his family would consider him in any way glamorous.  He did, however, have a calm consistency and capacity to respond to situations appropriately which inspired confidence in many.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> Yes I agree, Bowen allways seems to look as though he wishes he could say what he really feels. Poor guy doesn't look happy. I think Gillard keeps him on a tight rein, he allways looks as though he isn't far way from a spanking.




I actually think that he is an Avatar.


----------



## sptrawler

Great picture, It looks as though he is thinking "jeez another $hit butty to sell"
While Gillard is looking on thinking "Get on with it, or I'll give you what for"


----------



## MrBurns

The ABC is having a promote Labor day - 

Headlines on the homepage of their web site - 



> 1/ 'Thought leader'
> Bill Shorten says former PM John Howard has inadvertently revealed the Coalition's plan to re-introduce parts of WorkChoices if it wins government.
> 
> 2/ Labor gets boost in Nielsen Poll
> Assistant Treasurer David Bradbury says a new poll shows Australians are realising that the Coalition has been running a false campaign on the carbon tax.
> 
> 3/ Labor attacks Coalition's 'radical' tertiary agenda
> The Federal Government says the Opposition has tied itself in knots and in doing so has revealed its "radical" higher education agenda.




They must think their heros are in with a chance..........


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> The ABC is having a promote Labor day -
> 
> Headlines on the homepage of their web site -
> 
> 
> 
> They must think their heros are in with a chance..........




I think the coalition shouldn't be complacent about the most recent poll. Two party preferred is 46% vs 54%, which is + 2% for Labor and - 2% for the coalition in just 2 weeks. 

Although that may appear an insurmountable gap, it is just requires another 4% swing to Labor and from the Coalition to make them level.


----------



## MrBurns

bellenuit said:


> I think the coalition shouldn't be complacent about the most recent poll. Two party preferred is 46% vs 54%, which is + 2% for Labor and - 2% for the coalition in just 2 weeks.
> 
> Although that may appear an insurmountable gap, it is just requires another 4% swing to Labor and from the Coalition to make them level.




Gillard will now mount as many scare campaigns as possible while oiling up the cheques in the mail machine to get ahead then call an election.


----------



## white_goodman

MrBurns said:


> The ABC is having a promote Labor day -
> 
> Headlines on the homepage of their web site -
> 
> 
> 
> They must think their heros are in with a chance..........




considering the state of mind of the left it is no surprise they could be delusional enough to think they can win next year...

LNP $1.23 on betfair and good value imo. Dont look at polls, look where people are putting their money, thats always going to be a better indicator then a poll


----------



## sptrawler

I think internal objective polling will still come up with, labor are toast. These news polls are geared to get the result the newspaper wants, load the questions and focus your target group.
IMO labor will be creamed, hammered, destroyed.
They can use the sympathetic press as much as they like, however the mass has made its decission.IMO

Thinking they can hoodwink 5 years of disasters by sitting on their hands for the 6th year, is just immature politics. The electorate has moved on from that, thanks to the internet, now all someone has to do is google labor stuff ups.

On a side note it is interesting how Labor have given the Greens and the three amigos the flick.LOL 
Probably don't want to be seen as a major party that was beaten into submission by a minor parties.LOL
Jeez it would be nice to politically incorrect and call them Bob's #itches, but you couldn't be that cruel.LOL
Enjoy your retirement Bob, you made an @itch of the @itch.


----------



## kwaka1

"despite variable political stances is a the capacity to capture the people's attention through their oratory. What do you think got Barack Obama into power? Hardly his capacity to fix the nation's economic woes!"

Julia, this may be one of the problems facing the voting public over the last 10-15 years. A person who is very good at public speaking, eg B Obama, our own K Rudd, Bob Hawke perhaps, who can gain the attention of "joe public", without having any other necessary skills to lead, guide, manage people or a business. The government is a business.

Tony Abbott must very very careful with his statements or he will be seen as someone who does not like to see a woman in power. Many comments are reported about this issue.

I wish to see "someone" in the role of leader of Australia who can manage their political partners, overseer roles of health, education, infrastructure and, to be controversial, our border protection. They do not need to be a media person (as much as the public expects this), but someone who has the support, ability to help formulate decisions and garner approval from their "board of directors".


----------



## sptrawler

kwaka1 said:


> Tony Abbott must very very careful with his statements or he will be seen as someone who does not like to see a woman in power. Many comments are reported about this issue.
> 
> I wish to see "someone" in the role of leader of Australia who can manage their political partners, overseer roles of health, education, infrastructure and, to be controversial, our border protection. They do not need to be a media person (as much as the public expects this), but someone who has the support, ability to help formulate decisions and garner approval from their "board of directors".




Yes kwaka1, Julia and labor have managed their political partners well and Tony Abbott, according to labor, has a problem with women. I hope the election goes well also.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> It's a forum.  People agree and disagree all the time.  I cannot suddenly become a Tony Abbott fan just because it would make you and a few other people happier.  Wish I could.
> 
> The Nielsen poll out today suggests I'm not the only voter less than happy with Mr Abbott.



I'll take the above hyperbole a little further and suggest that no one has asked you to worship him at the alter.

I think you'll catch my drift. 



sptrawler said:


> Yes kwaka1, Julia and labor have managed their political partners well and Tony Abbott, according to labor, has a problem with women. I hope the election goes well also.



In one sense, I hope the next Newspoll comes out 50/50 2PP.

It might just tempt her.


----------



## Logique

kwaka1 said:


> "despite variable political stances is a the capacity to capture the people's attention through their oratory. What do you think got Barack Obama into power? Hardly his capacity to fix the nation's economic woes!"
> 
> Julia, this may be one of the problems facing the voting public over the last 10-15 years. A person who is very good at public speaking, eg B Obama, our own K Rudd, Bob Hawke perhaps, who can gain the attention of "joe public", without having any other necessary skills to lead, guide, manage people or a business. The government is a business.
> 
> Tony Abbott must very very careful with his statements or he will be seen as someone who does not like to see a woman in power. Many comments are reported about this issue.
> 
> I wish to see "someone" in the role of leader of Australia who can manage their political partners, overseer roles of health, education, infrastructure and, to be controversial, our border protection. They do not need to be a media person (as much as the public expects this), but someone who has the support, ability to help formulate decisions and garner approval from their "board of directors".



Agreed, fine sentiments. I wonder if Gail Kelly is available, although she'd have to take a pay cut, i.e., there are plenty of talented executives out there, of both genders, but the private sector soon snaps them up.


----------



## DB008

How a lot of the public feel.

This oldie has the right attitude. The question she really should have asked right then and there was, "how will our CO2 output and putting a 'Carbon Tax' on it, make any difference on a global scale, when China *increased* it's CO2 emissions more than out total output last year?"


----------



## dutchie

Logique said:


> but the private sector soon snaps them up.




and parliament is left with the dregs.


----------



## Miss Hale

DB008 said:


> How a lot of the public feel.
> 
> This oldie has the right attitude. The question she really should have asked right then and there was, "how will our CO2 output and putting a 'Carbon Tax' on it, make any difference on a global scale, when China *increased* it's CO2 emissions more than out total output last year?"





That clip is interesting.  Does anyone else think Gillard was being incredibly patronising the way she kept patting that lady on the arm in a kind of "There, there dear" way. Would she have patted a man on the arm in the same situation?  How would people/the media react if it was Abbott patting someone on the arm when answering a question? (especially a woman!)


----------



## Calliope

> Liberal premiers on the slide: Newspoll
> 
> JULIA Gillard's war with the states will be spurred by Newspoll surveys showing voters are unhappy with Ted Baillieu in Victoria and Barry O'Farrell in NSW..




Has anyone noticed that Nicholson now draws Julia with one shoe? A fine touch.





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ers-on-the-slide/story-e6frgczx-1226459381618


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> In one sense, I hope the next Newspoll comes out 50/50 2PP.
> 
> It might just tempt her.




+1 that would be great. With their track record, there is no chance there won't be a major stuff up in the next 12 months.
Also the greens have gone amazingly quite, even Rob Oakeshott can't get his face in the paper. 
By the way has anyone seen Windsor or Wilkie around.LOL They've had their 15minutes of glory, maybe checking out what vocational training is available.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> +1 that would be great. With their track record, there is no chance there won't be a major stuff up in the next 12 months.
> Also the greens have gone amazingly quite, even Rob Oakeshott can't get his face in the paper.
> By the way has anyone seen Windsor or Wilkie around.LOL They've had their 15minutes of glory, maybe checking out what vocational training is available.



http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport

Perhaps still slightly beyond temptation for our dear Julia.


----------



## white_goodman

drsmith said:


> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport
> 
> Perhaps still slightly beyond temptation for our dear Julia.





ill trust the judgement of betting markets then 1800 people who have no financial stake in their decision... polls arent that useful imo


----------



## drsmith

My response to that poll was tounge in cheek.

It essentially hasn't changed.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> My response to that poll was tounge in cheek.
> 
> It essentially hasn't changed.





Agree - the primary votes are exactly the same as last week and yet they alter the 2pp?  I wonder how they work their preferences?

It says this: "The two-party preferred estimate is calculated by distributing the votes of the other parties according to their preferences at the 2010 election."  

If that's so, then why isn't the 2pp the same as last week as well?  Strange...


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> +1 that would be great. With their track record, there is no chance there won't be a major stuff up in the next 12 months.
> Also the greens have gone amazingly quite, even Rob Oakeshott can't get his face in the paper.
> By the way has anyone seen Windsor or Wilkie around.LOL They've had their 15minutes of glory, maybe checking out what vocational training is available.




Jeez drsmith, I should have waited 4 hours, they have blown their feet off with the carbon tax fiasco.
Now I know why we haven't heard from the rest of the circus, they were being briefed on the carbon tax fallout and resultant backflip.
It must have gone something like "well we can hold the line and decimate Australian Industry, or we can backflip because we are are a bunch of dicks"
Show of hands, the dicks have it.LOL,LOL


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Agree - the primary votes are exactly the same as last week and yet they alter the 2pp?  I wonder how they work their preferences?
> 
> It says this: "The two-party preferred estimate is calculated by distributing the votes of the other parties according to their preferences at the 2010 election."
> 
> If that's so, then why isn't the 2pp the same as last week as well?  Strange...



Rounding I would think.



sptrawler said:


> Jeez drsmith, I should have waited 4 hours, they have blown their feet off with the carbon tax fiasco.
> Now I know why we haven't heard from the rest of the circus, they were being briefed on the carbon tax fallout and resultant backflip.
> It must have gone something like "well we can hold the line and decimate Australian Industry, or we can backflip because we are are a bunch of dicks"
> Show of hands, the dicks have it.LOL,LOL



Even Nielsen only gave Labor a 2% boost. 

From where they stand, it's essentially a last meal before being sent to the gallows.


----------



## Calliope

Q. Who does this remind you of?



> Reince Priebus, chairman of the Republican National Committee, said Mr Obama has "never run a company. He hasn't even run a garage sale or seen the inside of a lemonade stand."




A. Gillard and her front bench. With their union and lawyer backgrounds, all their expertise is in spending other peoples moneys...ripping off union members and taxpayers.


----------



## sails

Michael Smith has  updates and copies of more documents on this site.  I sometimes think "if this were Abbott instead of Gillard - wouldn't it be treated with absolute shock/horror from the left and calls for him to be unfit for office?"  And yet the left seem to brush this under the carpet because it's Gillard. Unbelievable.

Here's the link to Michael Smith's site: http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/


----------



## sptrawler

I love the new dental scheme announced by the government.
Apparently the last one was being rorted, well why didn't change it? They have been in office for nearly six years.
No they are going to put in place a new system, there is a catch, it's after the next election.LOL,LOL
Priceless.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> No they are going to put in place a new system, there is a catch, it's after the next election.LOL,LOL
> Priceless.



Desperate stuff by a desperate government.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I love the new dental scheme announced by the government.
> Apparently the last one was being rorted, well why didn't change it? They have been in office for nearly six years.
> No they are going to put in place a new system, there is a catch, it's after the next election.LOL,LOL
> Priceless.



Because they have once again danced to the Greens' tune of the proposed dental scheme announced today, the Greens will give them the numbers to get the cancellation of the Coalition's dental scheme through the Senate.
The government has certainly tried to get rid of it more than once up to now.  Probably rightly, in that it was open to people of unlimited wealth to get thousands of dollars worth of dental treatment free as long as they had a chronic disease.  That's not good use of taxpayer funds imo.

However, we have yet to discover how the government intends this dental scheme should be paid for.
On top of the NDIS, the Gonski education reforms, and the ever increasing cost of the asylum seekers.
Here's the summary from Chris Urhlman on tonight's  "7.30"


> NICK XENOPHON, INDEPENDENT MP: This will lead to a multimillion-dollar black hole in the budget, but of course the Government can't say anything else because to do so would actually blow a hole in the budget surplus.
> 
> CHRIS UHLMANN: So in 2015 the Government faces the risk of a big revenue hole and that's right when a stack of bills will be falling due. A new dental scheme with a $650-million-a-year price tag, education reform at a cost of $3 billion a year, a National Disabilities Insurance Scheme that will eventually add $7 billion a year, a blowout in processing and detaining asylum seekers of at least a billion dollars a year and a fleet of new submarines billed at $36 billion.
> 
> The Government keeps saying everything will be accounted for, but it's all over the horizon, and this afternoon a large gap opened between the Health Minister and the Prime Minister over how it will fund the promised dental scheme.




So far no suggestions from the government as to how any of all this will be paid for.

We can only assume they have no plans for paying as they realise they won't be in government to worry about it, and in the meantime are hoping enough people are sucked in to the mirage of wonderful new initiatives to vote for them.


----------



## DB008

If someone has a AFR subscription, there was a great article about the Subs that they have planned for the future.



> ‘Arms race lost’ without nuclear subs (March 6th, 2012)
> 
> Nuclear physicist and former Telstra boss Ziggy Switkowski has warned that Australia risks losing a regional arms race unless it replaces its existing diesel submarines with nuclear subs.
> 
> http://afr.com/p/national/arms_race_lost_without_nuclear_subs_QZDceQC28xxiaCRXgH4ZWK




You think the NBN will be a cost blow out...wait until you read this.
Complete muppets in Government.
It would be cheaper to purchase the future Subs from the USA or Spain (complete), and pay tradies 100k to do nothing that what it being proposed, which is build them here at huge expense.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> We can only assume they have no plans for paying as they realise they won't be in government to worry about it, and in the meantime are hoping enough people are sucked in to the mirage of wonderful new initiatives to vote for them.



They have a plan, well, err, um, their Greem masters do,



> RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, look, the Greens have got a range of spending revenue initiatives. We've already said that there are things like enormous fossil fuel subsidies where we could save hundreds of millions of dollars.




http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3578968.htm


----------



## sptrawler

The dental spend would have been $4 billion better spent, than spending it on pink batts and plasma t.v's.
$300billion wasted and all of a sudden they come up with ways to spend money, that helps the voters.LOL


----------



## bunyip

It never stops with Labor.....as long as they're in power they'll keep splashing money around like drunken sailors.


----------



## Logique

Check your phones you may get a tweet from the PM   
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/who_was_that_muscled_man/#commentsmore


----------



## drsmith

http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/05/08/the-speech-wayne-swans-2012-federal-budget-address/



> This Budget delivers a surplus this coming year, on time, as promised, and surpluses each year after that, strengthening over time.




Is Wayne Swan so sure now ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-2bn-in-handouts/story-fndttws1-1226461145436



> Coalition finance spokesman Andrew Robb said it was no surprise that commodity prices were falling.
> 
> "The terms of trade (the difference between export and import prices) are 40 per cent higher now than they were in the Howard years, which the government claims to be the golden era for tax revenue," he said. "The terms of trade don't have to collapse - they only have to come back 30 per cent or so and we're looking at $50bn to $60bn deficits for the next three or four years."




At the end of June, Commonwealth Government Securities Outstanding were ~$233bn and are now ~$243bn. 

http://www.aofm.gov.au/

At the surface it would indicate that our budget position is still going backwards at a substantial rate, but I don't know how lumpy redemptions are on week to week figures.

http://www.aofm.gov.au/content/borrowing/commonwealth/Monthly_Changes_CGS/2012/06_june.asp


----------



## drsmith

More on the budget blues from the AFR.

http://afr.com/p/national/labor_bn_budget_blowout_oRUlSZkFhd65YJFFTzti9N


----------



## Julia

Surely it's inconceivable that the government really believe they don't have a problem with these numbers?

Are they just creating a political environment that will be ever more difficult for the Coalition when they take over, inevitably cancelling these unrealistic policies?

It's hard to believe that any government could be so irresponsible just to their own political ends, but I can't see any other explanation.


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> Surely it's inconceivable that the government really believe they don't have a problem with these numbers?
> 
> Are they just creating a political environment that will be ever more difficult for the Coalition when they take over, inevitably cancelling these unrealistic policies?
> 
> It's hard to believe that any government could be so irresponsible just to their own political ends, but I can't see any other explanation.




Yes, I think that is their plan. They know they won't be re-elected, so they are setting things up to facilitate their re-election for the term after that. The harder they make things for the coalition when the coalition get into office, the better for them.

It's not something they are trying to conceal.  Witness their glee when proclaiming that the coalition will find it impossible to wind back the NBN and carbon tax when they get into power because of the way they have set things up


----------



## DB008

Julia said:


> Surely it's inconceivable that the government really believe they don't have a problem with these numbers?
> 
> Are they just creating a political environment that will be ever more difficult for the Coalition when they take over, inevitably cancelling these unrealistic policies?
> 
> It's hard to believe that any government could be so irresponsible just to their own political ends, but I can't see any other explanation.




What happens when the Gov hits the 300Billion ceiling?

Going from these screen shots l have taken, Gillard and Co should get there before X-Mas....


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> What happens when the Gov hits the 300Billion ceiling?



They'll test the lever arm on the jack a bit more.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Surely it's inconceivable that the government really believe they don't have a problem with these numbers?
> 
> Are they just creating a political environment that will be ever more difficult for the Coalition when they take over, inevitably cancelling these unrealistic policies?
> 
> It's hard to believe that any government could be so irresponsible just to their own political ends, but I can't see any other explanation.




Maybe someone can tell me, how the way they run the country is any different to how they ran the unions.
From all reports they didn't give a rat's about accountability then either.


----------



## DB008

drsmith said:


> They'll test the lever arm on the jack a bit more.




Isn't that when accidents happen?

I'm off to get some PPE...LOL


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> Isn't that when accidents happen?



It is.



> Our debt position, after four years of large deficits, is still the envy of the advanced world, with gross debts of just 24 per cent of GDP against an average, according to the International Monetary Fund, of 106 per cent. This has kept Australia on a AAA credit rating.
> 
> However Australia's deficits of the past three years, at about 4 per cent of GDP, are recession-sized, although the economy has shown continuous growth.
> 
> In 2006 and 2007, before the financial crisis, there was not a country in either the advanced or the emerging world with a deficit this large. Japan was the only country that came close. *An outstanding feature of the past five years is the speed with which debt positions can deteriorate as deficits mount.*




This should be a sobering perpsective for the Coalition as well.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...pending-rolls-on/story-e6frg9qo-1226461115620

My bolds.


----------



## sptrawler

It has been a self indulgent spree doc. 
I just hope they enjoy their pensions, while we get hammered to pay for their wastefull spending and poor policy.
There is one thing for sure, as Craig Thomson has shown, they won't lose any sleep over it.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> It is.
> 
> 
> 
> This should be a sobering perpsective for the Coalition as well.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...pending-rolls-on/story-e6frg9qo-1226461115620
> 
> My bolds.





And then when the coalition are left with a massive debt problem, labor supporters will say it's all Abbott's fault...

It seems this labor government simply doesn't care about the future of this country.  Perhaps if Gillard had children/grandchildren she would be more careful, but I suppose she will get her pension no matter what and her non-existent children/grandchildren won't suffer because of her inability to manage Australia's funds prudently.

This debt problem is a far worse problem for Australia than the unproven co2, imo


----------



## DB008

Looks like they will might their surplus target.....



> SYDNEY””It is getting harder for the government of Prime Minister Julia Gillard to meet a promise to return to a budget surplus this fiscal year, as iron-ore prices plunge and the country's biggest mining company cancels billions of dollars in new projects amid a slowdown in Australia's resources boom.
> 
> Erasing a 44 billion Australian dollar (US$46 billion) budget shortfall is a pillar of the government's economic policy ahead of a general election expected late next year. The revenue to pay for this economic blueprint was supposed to come partly from a new tax on profits from the sale of mineral resources and higher corporate-tax receipts, driven by what the government still boasts is a once-in-a-century mining boom.
> 
> But the sharp slide in commodity prices and signs of retrenchment by Australian miners over recent months has put that plan at risk. From copper mines in tropical Queensland state to big iron-ore pits in the country's west, mining companies are idling equipment and laying off workers.






> Treasurer Wayne Swan played down the impact of falling commodity prices at a Tuesday news conference, saying the government will hit its budget-surplus target.
> 
> Moreover, the controversial mineral-resources rent tax, or MRRT, which since July 1 has imposed a 30% levy on profits from iron-ore and coal production, is expected to miss a target to bring in about A$6.5 billion over the next two years.
> 
> Without deep spending cuts, Macquarie Securities is forecasting a budget deficit of about A$9 billion in this fiscal year as the falling commodity prices and lower company profits wipe about A$10 billion from forecast tax receipts.
> 
> The longer the government delays any decision on adjusting its budget based on lower revenue "the larger the cuts would have to be to rescue the surplus," said Brian Redican, a senior economist at Macquarie.




http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444327204577615083812315456.html


----------



## Happy

Modest surplus of $1B something will turn to dust and be replaced with not so modest deficit.

Let me guess who will be blamed for it?

Sure bet that Tony Abbot will be in pleasantries firing line, of course GLOBAL situation, possibly China will be blamed for not increasing demand for our holes digging income stream.


----------



## IFocus

There is no problem with the budget Abbott and Hockey will fix it with their 50 to 70bil black hole promises.


----------



## white_goodman

IFocus said:


> There is no problem with the budget Abbott and Hockey will fix it with their 50 to 70bil black hole promises.




so wait your against deficit spending? Anti government malinvestment?


----------



## DB008

Funnies going around....


----------



## moXJO

What the hell did they blow almost $300 billion on?


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> What the hell did they blow almost $300 billion on?



Government securities outstanding as at the end of June/July/Aug was $234.0/234.3/245.3bn respectively.

http://www.aofm.gov.au/

That's a big jump in the past month.

Note though that the the trend from month to month can be lumpy, depending on redemptions, so it will be interesting to see what longer trends emerge.


----------



## MrBurns

> Gillard delivers school funding plan
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has delivered her response to the Gonski review into school funding, announcing a plan to put Australia in the world's top five schooling systems by 2025




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-03/government-delivers-response-to-gonski-review/4239956

More meaningless rubbish, 2025 ? she wont last the year out, another grandiose empty promise that will never be delivered.

When will we be rid of this Govt ?


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> 2025 ?



What will be finished first ?

Gonski or the NBN ?


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> What will be finished first ?
> 
> Gonski or the NBN ?




Gonski, the NBN will never be finished.


----------



## Miss Hale

Heard Gillard wittering on about this on radio at lunchtime.  I might be the only one that thinks this but IMO education dollars should be spent on the basics (ensuting _everyone_ is literate and numerate).  Despite a university degree I have learn more since I finished my formal education through self education and life experiences and a lot of what I learnt at Uni I now realise was leftist propaganda anyway.  When Gillard talks about a' good education' I can't help feeling she really means an opportunity to create a new generation of Labor voters.


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> Heard Gillard wittering on about this on radio at lunchtime.  I might be the only one that thinks this but IMO education dollars should be spent on the basics (ensuting _everyone_ is literate and numerate).  Despite a university degree I have learn more since I finished my formal education through self education and life experiences and a lot of what I learnt at Uni I now realise was leftist propganda anyway.  When Gillard talks about a' good education' I can't help feeling she really means an opportunity to create a new generation of Labor voters.



+1.  If we could just turn out children who can spell, put a sentence together and do a reasonable amount of mental arithmetic, that would be a considerable improvement.

PS  I love the expression 'wittering on'.  Haven't heard it for ages.


----------



## MrBurns

Sieg Heil !!!


----------



## drsmith

On another front, stimulus in the form of cheques in the mail are like adrenaline.

They don't last.



> AUSTRALIAN stayed away from department stores in droves in July, precipitating a shock slump in retail sales that suggest government handouts were mainly responsible for the recent shopping splurge.
> 
> While economists expected the pace of retail sales growth to slow in July, they actually slumped 0.8 per cent to $21.4 billion, dragged down by a 10.2 per cent collapse in sales at department stores.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...g-economic-signs/story-e6frg926-1226463926849


----------



## drsmith

This week's Essential Media poll and Newspoll will be interesting. 

Will the good ship Labor still be sinking despite it's leader's best efforts to throw all our money over the side ?


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> +1.  If we could just turn out children who can spell, put a sentence together and do a reasonable amount of mental arithmetic, that would be a considerable improvement.
> 
> PS  I love the expression 'wittering on'.  Haven't heard it for ages.




You are spot on Julia,IMO the teachers union over the last 20 years has been responsible for dismantling our education system.
First it was, get rid of exams for students(it places too much onus on non performing teachers)
Then lets break it into four terms, with performance indicators a the end of each term( most could pass that)
Then it was time to move on from the basics, Maths, Science, English and get into the feel good stuff snowboarding, surfing, overseas excursions. LOL
Is there any wonder we are importing workers.
I would love someone to come up with how many of the Hawke, Keating era were from the teachers unions. I might be wrong, but it would be an interesting excercise.
Now all of a sudden our kids can't read and write, when they enter the workforce.


----------



## Calliope

Now it's an education "Crusade". An odd term for an atheist. I liked the way Leigh Sales took her apart on 7.30 tonight. She cut through all the bullsh_i_t and exposed Gillard for the fake that she is. I doubt that Gillard will be back. She looked very annoyed.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> Now it's an education "Crusade". An odd term for an atheist. I liked the way Leigh Sales took her apart on 7.30 tonight. She cut through all the bullsh_i_t and exposed Gillard for the fake that she is. I doubt that Gillard will be back. She looked very annoyed.




WHAT, I don't watch it but assumed from the Abbott reports, it was pro labor reporting.
I might have to start watching her, if she gave Gillard a similar interview.
AT last we may have a reporter that reports. Yeh


----------



## MrBurns

Gillard is is a first class fraud and is now chasing popularity harder than ever with lies, false promises and no doubt another handout before the election.


----------



## DB008

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3582074.htm

(F**k me, you can almost see bones coming out of her mouth)

~4:50 is a nice spot in that interview...


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Now it's an education "Crusade". An odd term for an atheist. I liked the way Leigh Sales took her apart on 7.30 tonight. She cut through all the bullsh_i_t and exposed Gillard for the fake that she is. I doubt that Gillard will be back. She looked very annoyed.



Good to know you're not entirely convinced Leigh Sales is only tough on Mr Abbott.

I liked the phrase that Ms Sales used several times to the Prime Minister:
"You make out that........."
That's making it pretty clear that the interviewer thinks Ms Gillard's credibility is minimal.

The Prime Minister's responses on the terrorism/Afghanistan question were pathetic.


----------



## wayneL

Bravo Leigh. Dullard caught on the back foot by on of her own minions.



Calliope said:


> Now it's an education "Crusade". An odd term for an atheist.




Perhaps my peculiar sense of humour, but that made me LOL Calliope... well spotted.



> I liked the way Leigh Sales took her apart on 7.30 tonight. She cut through all the bullsh_i_t and exposed Gillard for the fake that she is. I doubt that Gillard will be back. She looked very annoyed.




Why do I always think of Kath and Kim when I listen to Julia G?


----------



## Tink

LOL Wayne, agree, she sounds exactly like them. 

I was at the shops a few days ago, and I am sure I must have been served by a clone of Gillard. Her mannerisms, her looks, even the way she spoke that she tightens her lip - I am usually a chatty person, but didnt say too much this time.
I dont even watch her anymore, she annoys me.


----------



## DB008

Over on Reddit, they are saying that Gillard did great in that interview and that she was 1000 times better than Abbott last week.


----------



## Calliope

Even her staunchest defenders think she is all piss and wind. This from the _Age._



> *Tim Colebatch of The Age is scathing of this unfunded dreaming of Big Government*
> 
> *But after nine months of reading and discussing the [Gonski] report, all she gave us yesterday was support for its key principles, mixed with undeliverable aspirations, syrupy platitudes, and heavy-handed, even absurd plans for more federal bureaucratic intervention in schools, university courses and teacher hiring.
> *
> There was no plan on how to finance her suggested $6.5 billion a year increase in schools funding - at a time when state governments are broke, and Treasury secretary Martin Parkinson has warned that the overloaded federal government faces years of low tax revenues…
> 
> In nine months, there has been only minimal consultation with the states - which run our education system and, the PM seems to expect, will foot much of the bill, even though they have no way to pay it.
> 
> There was no detail on the two parts of Gonski’s funding formula…
> 
> *Yesterday’s speech was not so much a policy as a stunt*. A policy would spell out where the money is coming from.



(my bolds)

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## Knobby22

I like Tim Colebatch.
He always says it like it is and unfortunately that is how it is with the education policy.
Very unimpressive policy from our Prime Minister. 
I don't know how she thinks it will win her votes, it will do just the opposite.

If we get rid of the Age, maybe Bolt will have to think for himself?


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> Very unimpressive policy from our Prime Minister.
> I don't know how she thinks it will win her votes, it will do just the opposite.




It's a squeeze play. All her extravagant initiatives; the education crusade, national disability insurance and the revised dental scheme are all very expensive and a long way down the track and will cost billions we do not have. But the beauty of these schemes from the Labor point of view is that they are all desirable motherhood schemes.

All Julia has to do now is to sit back and let the Coalition play the bad guys by threatening their introduction. These are the centre points of Labor's re-election strategy. The more Abbott complains the better Gillard looks.


----------



## Knobby22

Calliope said:


> It's a squeeze play. All her extravagant initiatives; the education crusade, national disability insurance and the revised dental scheme are all very expensive and a long way down the track and will cost billions we do not have. But the beauty of these schemes from the Labor point of view is that they are all desirable motherhood schemes.
> 
> All Julia has to do now is to sit back and let the Coalition play the bad guys by threatening their introduction. These are the centre points of Labor's re-election strategy. The more Abbott complains the better Gillard looks.




Maybe, I think it might cement her rusted-on voters (now that's mixing metaphors!) but swinging voters aren't going to convinced.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> It's a squeeze play. All her extravagant initiatives; the education crusade, national disability insurance and the revised dental scheme are all very expensive and a long way down the track and will cost billions we do not have. But the beauty of these schemes from the Labor point of view is that they are all desirable motherhood schemes.
> 
> All Julia has to do now is to sit back and let the Coalition play the bad guys by threatening their introduction. These are the centre points of Labor's re-election strategy. The more Abbott complains the better Gillard looks.



Yes, that's exactly what I've been trying to say over a few days now.

This from Tim Colebatch's article;


> In nine months, there has been only minimal consultation with the states - which run our education system and, the PM seems to expect, will foot much of the bill, even though they have no way to pay it.




possibly raises another tactic she's using, i.e. to pick a fight with the States.  She knows they can't pay for any of these schemes, that's just the reality, but she will use their non-participation to accuse them of not caring about people with disabilities, about children's education, about the dental  health of the nation.
Then this will be extrapolated to suggest that all Liberals, very much including the federal opposition, are uncaring bastards who will never look after the health and education of the nation.

I wonder if many will actually be sucked into this stuff?   Hopefully most will see it for what it is.
For me, at least, it increases further my disgust at the manipulative, shallow person that is Ms Gillard


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Now it's an education "Crusade". An odd term for an atheist. I liked the way Leigh Sales took her apart on 7.30 tonight. She cut through all the bullsh_i_t and exposed Gillard for the fake that she is. I doubt that Gillard will be back. She looked very annoyed.





And yet not once did Sales suggest that Gillard is "loose with the truth" as she did to Abbott.  I still think she was lighter on Gillard than on Abbott and yet Gillard is the one whose lies and unwanted decisions affect every Australian and is the one spending taxpayers like a drunken sailor (to quote Abbott).

Even so, it was good to see her make Gillard squirm even if it was just a bit.


----------



## drsmith

Economic dark clouds in the distance becoming more publically visible would be a worry for Labor,

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/companyInfo.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=FMG

aAlthough Julia Gillard still maintains a brave face, as one would expect she would.

It adds more weight to the potential for an early election.


----------



## Tink

Agree with your post, Julia. 
I was guilty of giving her the benefit of the doubt at the start, she knows her days are numbered.


----------



## sails

Tink said:


> Agree with your post, Julia.
> I was guilty of giving her the benefit of the doubt at the start, she knows her days are numbered.





Tink, you were more generous than me.  After the way she knifed Rudd when vehemently giving  him full support until the knife was in made me feel she could not be trusted.  She certainly confirmed that when she blasted the airwaves in the days prior to the last election with her "no carbon tax' commitment and then told a journalist on the eve of the election she would view victory the next day as a mandate to price carbon.  That showed she didn't mean a word of her promise, imo.

Still, I was hopeful she would be some improvement on Rudd, but it seems she took this country from the frying pan and into the fire.


----------



## sptrawler

Well it will be interesting now the miners are pulling down the shutters, Swan and Gillard will look like a right pair of dicks.
The massive intake of overseas workers, will now be saying "why me" when the mining companies want to down size. 
Six months ago the government was saying we have a shortfall of workers in the region of 500,000.
Today Fortesque metals is talking about laying workers off.
This government is full of it.
$300billion of debt and not a job to show for it. LOL
The new clean energy future, can someone please post a link to a clean energy programme that is booming.LOL
How is that clean energy power station, in outback N.S.W going.LOL
I read today, Costello was saying an investigation into banks solvency, maybe should include super funds. That will have some, wad punching their undies.LOL


----------



## MrBurns

What a hopeless bunch of clowns really, they cant even get their own policy right

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-...ans-to-shut-down-dirty-power-stations/4243888



> Govt scraps plans to shut down dirty power stations
> 
> by chief political correspondent Simon Cullen
> 
> Posted 5 minutes ago








> Talks on closing down some of the country's highest polluting power stations have collapsed, with the Federal Government saying it could not reach an agreement on compensation.
> 
> The government has been negotiating contracts for closure with five power generators - three of which are in Victoria - as part of its carbon tax package.
> 
> But Resources Minister Martin Ferguson says the talks have failed to agree on the appropriate level of compensation, and the negotiations have been cancelled.
> 
> "There remains a material gap between the level of compensation generators have sought and what the Government is prepared to pay," Mr Ferguson has said in a statement.
> 
> The Government was hoping to close down 2,000 megawatts of carbon-intensive power generation by 2020, although it never disclosed how much money it was willing to put on the table.
> 
> The five generators that participated in the negotiations include: Alinta Energy in South Australia, HRL in Victoria, Hazelwood power station in Victoria, RATCH-Australia in Queensland, and the TRUenergy plant in Yallourn, Victoria.


----------



## Calliope

It is not surprising that Abbott and Gillard are running neck and neck in the popularity stakes. They are also competing in who can be the most irresponsible in reckless spending of public monies. A pox on both of them.



> The government has pledged to fund the bulk of a schools package that could cost $6.5 billion a year. A new dental scheme has a $4bn price tag. Trials of a national disability insurance scheme are costing $1bn. If the NDIS is to be fully funded, it will cost $6.5bn a year on top of $7bn already spent on disability services.
> 
> The opposition has its own costly promises. The "direct action" climate change plan is costed at $3.2bn, but the Grattan Institute suggests it could cost $100bn to meet its targets. Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has promised to find $6.5bn to fund the NDIS. His promised $60bn-$70bn savings target must be met while promising to cut taxes, including the mining and carbon taxes. The opposition will levy businesses to fund a $2.7bn parental leave scheme. When the opposition put forward its policies at the last election, Treasury found an $11bn hole. There is little to suggest voters should have any confidence in the government or the opposition to fund their policies within the fiscal parameters available to them over the forward estimates.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ade-to-win-votes/story-e6frg71x-1226465045753


----------



## DB008

Joe Hockey was pretty good last night on the 7:30 Report.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3582926.htm


----------



## alphaman

Calliope said:


> It is not surprising that Abbott and Gillard are running neck and neck in the popularity stakes. They are also competing in who can be the most irresponsible in reckless spending of public monies.



Seems inevitable. If not buying votes, what else can they try?


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> It is not surprising that Abbott and Gillard are running neck and neck in the popularity stakes. They are also competing in who can be the most irresponsible in reckless spending of public monies. A pox on both of them.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ade-to-win-votes/story-e6frg71x-1226465045753




From the above article



> A serious government, or a responsible opposition, would turn the debate to fiscal restraint rather than hope for an endless boom.




We can only hope that under the surface, this is something the current opposition actuallly realise.



DB008 said:


> Joe Hockey was pretty good last night on the 7:30 Report.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3582926.htm



I thought so too, but Leigh was a bit more of a softie in that interview. 

She might have been told to ease up a bit.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> We can only hope this is something the current opposition come to realise when they are returned to office.




Yes. Joe Hockey's responses to Leigh Sales did not give any indication that the opposition even knows the meaning of "fiscal restraint". If they want to gain some credibility they should ditch their "direct action" climate change plan for starters. I think that would gain them more votes than they would lose. As stated above in The Oz editorial:



> The "direct action" climate change plan is costed at $3.2bn, but the Grattan Institute suggests it could cost $100bn to meet its targets.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> It is not surprising that Abbott and Gillard are running neck and neck in the popularity stakes. They are also competing in who can be the most irresponsible in reckless spending of public monies. A pox on both of them.






Calliope said:


> Yes. Joe Hockey's responses to Leigh Sales did not give any indication that the opposition even knows the meaning of "fiscal restraint". If they want to gain some credibility they should ditch their "direct action" climate change plan for starters. I think that would gain them more votes than they would lose. As stated above in The Oz editorial:



Agree.  So stupid to accuse the government of fiscal recklessness yet display the same themselves.
A clear ditching of the 'direct action' plan, especially in the wake of the government dropping the floor price for the tax and now the coal fired power stations effectively being given the go ahead to keep doing what they have always done, would probably be well received by most, other than, of course, the Greens.



DB008 said:


> Joe Hockey was pretty good last night on the 7:30 Report.



I actually wondered if he was sick.  His voice was scratchy and he was overall less than his usual self imo.
Leigh Sales certainly soft pedalled.


----------



## DB008

Labor bringing in internet, data retention laws



> *Critics of the Federal Government's plan to store the internet and phone data of every Australian say it amounts to constant surveillance.*
> 
> Attorney-General Nicola Roxon yesterday announced the controversial plan, which would see internet and phone companies storing the data of every user for up to two years.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-05/data-retention-plan-likened-to-gestapo-tactics/4243402


*THIS*




> *Reasons to be worried about Data Retention*
> 
> *Another huge concern is security.*
> 
> The stored records, which would be vast in size, are supposedly to be kept by ISPs. These aren't companies trained in privacy issues or who are required to background-check employees - they're businesses who have naturally spoken out against having this storage burden dumped upon them at huge cost (a figure of $700m per year has been mooted with any figure most likely being passed on to the public). However, of enormous concern should be security.
> 
> *Just last night Anonymous hacked an FBI operative's laptop (alarming in itself) and discovered full customer details and Unique Device Identifying numbers for some 12 million Apple products (what the FBI was doing with this information is another issue). The number of high-profile hacks on government and companies is growing all the time. Barely a month ago, hackers published reams of customer information from Australian ISP AAPT.*
> 
> It's not like companies learn from being hacked either. After being repeatedly hacked last year and despite protestations on each occasion that it had learned from its mistakes, Sony got hacked yet again just a few days ago. Are we expecting ISPs to suddenly become military-grade privacy protectors? Even the military gets hacked - witness the Stratfor (US Defence contractor) debacle plus the entire Wikileaks saga.



http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2012/09/05/3583350.htm


----------



## McLovin

DB008 said:
			
		

> Labor bringing in internet, data retention laws




More civil liberty stripping. Why not just put a camera and microphone in everyone's home on the off chance that they commit a crime and then it can be used as evidence?

This time they haven't tried to hang it on catching child pr0n on the internet, instead now we have to worry about terrorists. What a load of cr@p. When was the last time someone died in Australia as the result of a terrorist attack? The Hilton bombing?

Surprise, surprise the only people supporting this move are the ATO and the AFP. The ATO already has more investigative power than ASIO but it's not enough.


----------



## sptrawler

What about the latest bombshell, they aren't going to shut down any of the coal fired power stations(which we all knew anyway, smurph has been through the lunacy of the idea, several times).
Well Tony's right again, it now becomes just a great big new tax.LOL


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> What about the latest bombshell, they aren't going to shut down any of the coal fired power stations(which we all knew anyway, smurph has been through the lunacy of the idea, several times).
> Well Tony's right again, it now becomes just a great big new tax.LOL




7:30 Report had a story on it too.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3583856.htm


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> 7:30 Report had a story on it too.
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3583856.htm




Great link, just shows what a scam the government has done to bring in a new consumption tax, that will cost jobs.
Nothing to do with the enviroment.
The funny thing is, the coalition would not have got away with any of this crap, the unions would have brought the country to a standstill over job losses.LOL


----------



## bunyip

_CHRIS UHLMANN: The decision not to buy and close brown coal power stations has blindsided and incensed the Greens.

CHRISTINE MILNE, GREENS LEADER: You simply can't trust the Labor government to have any consistent policy to address greenhouse gas emissions. On the one hand, we signed up a multi-party climate agreement with up to 2,000 megawatts of coal to be closed down and now we have Martin Ferguson terminating the scheme after what I believe is not a very genuine effort on either the coal companies or his part.

CHRIS UHLMANN: And an increasingly fractious relationship is fracturing.

CHRISTINE MILNE: But one component that is seriously wrong and that the electorate can fix is the fact that Labor can't be trusted on the environment. It's as simple as that._


It's taken silly old Christine Milne long enough to wake up to the fact that Labor can't be trusted! LOL 
The woman is obviously a little slow off the mark!

Her last sentence is virtually an invitation to vote against Labor at the next election. After the cosy relationship between Labor and the Greens, who would have thought we'd see the rot setting in like this.


----------



## drsmith

> CHRISTINE MILNE: But one component that is seriously wrong and that the electorate can fix is the fact that Labor can't be trusted on the environment. It's as simple as that.



The Greens need Labor to progress the idiologies and will for some time. 

Thek know that and the above is simply about nibbling away at Labor's voter base. It's no different to a relationship between parasite and host.


----------



## drsmith

The government's latest tax milking cow.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-tax-breaks-axed/story-fn59niix-1226467644818


----------



## DB008

*PM Julia Gillard's father passes away*

http://www.news.com.au/news/pm-julia-gillards-father-passes-away/story-fncvfxcm-1226468036614



> PM Julia Gillard said she and her family are in "shock" after her father passed away, and she will be returning to Adelaide from the APEC summit.
> 
> The Australian Prime Minister's sad news was announced to delegates at an afternoon session by the summit host, Russian President Vladimir Putin.
> 
> In a statement today, Ms Gillard said:
> "My father, John Gillard, passed away this morning in Adelaide. He has battled illness in recent years but his death is a shock for me and my family."




That's not good. 
RIP John Gillard.


----------



## sptrawler

Yes it is sad when parents pass away. It sounded as though he had a full life, starting in Wales then emigrating in the early 60's. He would have lived through some pretty tough times.
I know when my family came to Australia in the 60's, it wasn't as prosperous then.
Condolences to the Gillard family.


----------



## moXJO

Labor seems to be screwing over the Australian people. Funny how now their failed policies come due another working policy that keeps money in your pocket is axed. The libs need to stop the extravagant promises and just get a handle on debt levels and revenue.



> In a search for revenues, Labor eyes super tax breaks
> 
> In a struggle to uncover funding for expensive new programs in education and disability services, the Labor government is considering cuts in superannuation tax concessions that could produce billions in additional government revenues, while hitting super owners hard, according to The Australian Financial Review.
> 
> The government is in particular focusing on generous capital gains tax breaks for self-managed superannuation funds that invest in property, the report added, while also looking at super tax benefits after people retire, when pensions paid by superannuation are tax free.
> 
> The government had previously excluded the tax-free status of superannuation pension payments from discussions of how best to reform the country's taxation system. But as pressure grows on government revenues, policymakers are taking a fresh look at whether the existing system is being used to minimise tax bills.




http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/In-a-search-for-revenues-Labor-eyes-super-tax-brea-pd20120907-XWQZY?OpenDocument&src=hp5

So now labor is making you work for longer and about to tax you once again. Surprise surprise.


----------



## drsmith

Superannutation is seen as a tax milking cow by both sides. There are many here who would remember the Howard government's superannuation surcharge.

As a general principal, all tax breaks for superannuation should be scrapped. It should however done a part of overall tax reform with, for example, a tax free threshold with a single marginal rate of income tax for income above that threshold the same as the corporate tax rate.

The opportunity for tax reform has unfortunately passed. The big revenue dollars which could have minimised short term losers from wholesale changes were wasted by the Howard government on middle class welfare and excessive tax breaks for super. Labor has since made matters worse with its cash handouts, wastful spending, new and complex taxes and rapidly expanding government debt.

There will be losers in the tax changes to come, but I fear that both sides will be driven by their political needs rather than proper reform. Labor is very much acting in that way in government as well as seeking to redistribute the pie rather than grow it.

In the context of parts of Europe, superannuation is very much low hanging fruit. If there is a sustained slump in global prices for our export commodities, there will be far worse to come regardless of who is in power. It's only a question of time I fear.


----------



## Calliope

No sign of Tim in Vladivostok. Julia departed to return to Adelaide on her father's death alone. I suppose it would have been a tad awkward to have Tim with her in Vladivostok when she was accompanied by one of her former lovers, Craig Emerson.


----------



## Macquack

Calliope, you are spending too much time reading Women's Weekly.


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> No sign of Tim in Vladivostok. Julia departed to return to Adelaide on her father's death alone. I suppose it would have been a tad awkward to have Tim with her in Vladivostok when she was accompanied by one of her former lovers, Craig Emerson.




I'm sure I saw him on some of the video footage of the conference and affairs surrounding it.


----------



## DB008

Once again l am trolling in the internet when l find something funny and thought you lot would like it...


----------



## sptrawler

I think that is in bad taste, DB008, doesn't really add to the debate.


----------



## sptrawler

Here is a classic, Labor are saying there will be massive cuts if the Coalition get in.
Well "DUH"
Do they think that their binge can be fixed without cuts?
Did they think the plasmas and pink batts, wouldn't have to be paid for?
What is their option keep spending and upping taxes? LOL,LOL,LOL


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-11/labor-warns-of-curtain-raiser-to-abbott-cuts/4255188

Even the low income earners know you can't keep running away from debt, sooner or later it catches up.
The worlds greatest treasurer is looking a bit lost. IMO
He could probably get a job in Greece, they seem to thrive on blowing budgets.


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> I think that is in bad taste, DB008, doesn't really add to the debate.




Poor judgement on my behalf. My bad.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Here is a classic, Labor are saying there will be massive cuts if the Coalition get in.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-11/labor-warns-of-curtain-raiser-to-abbott-cuts/4255188



Like just about everything Labor has done under Julia Gillard, the MRRT was never anything more than a third rate political fix.

The chickens were always going to come home to roost and the flow will only increase.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Like just about everything Labor has done under Julia Gillard, the MRRT was never anything more than a third rate political fix.



The Queensland Budget increases royalties for coal miners.  This is a red rag to Mr Swan who has threatened that if the States do this he will cut their share of the GST revenue because apparently the miners can deduct what they pay in royalties from what they pay to the Commonwealth via the MRRT.
Should have put a bit more thought into designing it properly, Mr Swan.


----------



## drsmith

How was Leigh Sales with Kevin Rudd tonight ?

Was she a teddybear ?


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> How was Leigh Sales with Kevin Rudd tonight ?
> 
> Was she a teddybear ?




She wasnt too bad but Rudd is a useless waste of space, it really stands out now.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> How was Leigh Sales with Kevin Rudd tonight ?
> 
> Was she a teddybear ?



I don't think so.  She correctly drew attention to the very obvious fact that he is consciously 'putting himself out there' at every opportunity, and did this quite forcefully, without quite being rude.
Seeing him again, with his pompous manner, was a ghastly reminder of just how much of a disaster he was.


----------



## drsmith

I've now seen iit.

It took a few attempts, but Leigh did get him to mention the G-word.


----------



## sptrawler

So now what? Mr Swan, Worlds Greatest Treasurer 
Six months ago you want to tax the crap out of Fortesque Metals, because they are supposedly making a killing.
Now six months further on they are struggling to stay afloat because of their debt repayments and falling prices.
They are apparently $8billion in debt, from putting in infrastructure, the funding of the debt was based on a stable return.
Now what? a tax break so they don't go under, or just let the Chinese buy them out at fire sale price?
Mate your a genius, I can see why Ifocus and So_Cynical are so enamoured with you.LOL,LOL,LOL
Don't just kill the golden goose, pluck it and stuff it and give it to the fox.
What happens now when Aussie mining companies try to get finance?
This is the problem with a very short sighted tax grab, the repercussions may be far reaching.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/m...fears-drag-fortescue-down-20120913-25uf9.html


----------



## Ves

To be fair,  I think FMG would have been in this trouble with or without the MRRT.  I think they've been poorly managed, using Wayne Swan or the labour government as an excuse (or even a little reason for this!) is stretching it IMO.  Massive amounts of debt as producer with low margins.  Not the government's fault, I'm afraid!


----------



## sptrawler

That leads to the next problem, when China ownes all the mines and is the customer.
How do you tax them on profits, if they keep the price they pay for their commodity down? Maybe that is where royalties on tonnage was smarter.
No, nothing could be smarter than than the current government.LOL Bring on the election.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> To be fair,  I think FMG would have been in this trouble with or without the MRRT.  I think they've been poorly managed, using Wayne Swan or the labour government as an excuse (or even a little reason for this!) is stretching it IMO.  Massive amounts of debt as producer with low margins.  Not the government's fault, I'm afraid!




Well that is debatable, they were underwritten on the understanding pre MRRT, with the knowledge material prices fluctuate.
Post MRRT, any excessive rise in material prices, doesn't translate into debt servicing.

Also to be fair Labor and Swan in particular, held up Fortesque and Forrest to public ridicule on the premise they sit back and cream everyone. I don't think the people being layed off or the backers will agree with you.


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> Well that is debatable, they were underwritten on the understanding pre MRRT, with the knowledge material prices fluctuate.
> Post MRRT, any excessive rise in material prices, doesn't translate into debt servicing.



Can you tell me what their margins would be at $90 per tonne:

a) with the MRRT
b) without it

???

They borrowed $1.6 billion in October 2011.   Are you saying they forgot about the MRRT and borrowed any way?

Another $1.5 billion in December 2010 and $2.7 billion in October 2010. I could keep going if you like.  I am sure the MRRT was known then too.  Perhaps not in its final form as such, but why go borrow if you think it is going to eat into your margins so much?

Are you sure FMG wasn't just greedy?   Borrowing massive amounts of money with no contingency plan, because you know the party in China will still be going years from now?

Do they even pay the MRRT on any of their expansion projects?   I was sure that they were quoted to have said that the tax was ridiculous because a lot of their projects would be exempt in the first few years.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> Can you tell me what their margins would be at $90 per tonne:
> 
> a) with the MRRT
> b) without it
> 
> ???
> 
> They borrowed $1.6 billion in October 2011.   Are you saying they forgot about the MRRT and borrowed any way?
> 
> Another $1.5 billion in December 2010 and $2.7 billion in October 2010. I could keep going if you like.  I am sure the MRRT was known then too.  Perhaps not in its final form as such, but why go borrow if you think it is going to eat into your margins so much?
> 
> Are you sure FMG wasn't just greedy?   Borrowing massive amounts of money with no contingency plan, because you know the party in China will still be going years from now?
> 
> Do they even pay the MRRT on any of their expansion projects?   I was sure that they were quoted to have said that the tax was ridiculous because a lot of their projects would be exempt in the first few years.




No I don't think they are greedy infrastructure cost huge money, their rail lne is reportedly valued at $2.5b.
To get funding for mine development and supporting infrastructure takes certainty of return, when a government starts moving the the goal posts it causes financiers to balk.
Whether ther pay the MRRT tax or not is irrelevant, no one is going to put up more funding on the uncertainty


----------



## drsmith

I haven't looked into FMG specifically, but trouble over debt covenants is usually of a company's own making.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> I haven't looked into FMG specifically, but trouble over debt covenants is usually of a company's own making.




Agreed, however if for example the government ups the company tax rate from 30% to 35% would that cause an issue.
How about the government removes negative gearing and only allows investors to offset loses against capital gains.
Would they not, in most cases, cause trouble over debt covenants. Also would they be of a borrowers own making.
Or should the government have said contracts signed from this point on have these new tax rulings imposed.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> That leads to the next problem, when China ownes all the mines and is the customer.
> How do you tax them on profits, if they keep the price they pay for their commodity down? Maybe that is where royalties on tonnage was smarter.
> No, nothing could be smarter than than the current government.LOL Bring on the election.




Well it sounds as though the predators are circling. It will be interesting to see how much MRRT tax the government get if Boasteel end up taking control of Fortesque.LOL 

http://www.smh.com.au/business/mini...rest-in-talks-with-stokes-20120914-25wso.html


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Agreed, however if for example the government ups the company tax rate from 30% to 35% would that cause an issue.
> 
> How about the government removes negative gearing and only allows investors to offset loses against capital gains.



Won't happen, but negative gearing against unrelated passive income should be removed as part of broader tax reform.

With business, the government is more likely to go after deductions and concessions than a direct hit on the headline corporate tax rate.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Won't happen, but negative gearing against unrelated passive income should be removed as part of broader tax reform.
> 
> With business, the government is more likely to go after deductions and concessions than a direct hit on the headline corporate tax rate.





Abbott is going to be caught out with a lack of revenue so other than superannuation where will the money come from?


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Abbott is going to be caught out with a lack of revenue so other than superannuation where will the money come from?





Does Gillard have a sick plan to leave the credit card maxed out with massive interest payments and so many committed expenses so there is nothing left when she's booted out?

Surely that would be wrong?  Didn't Gillard promise to serve the Australian people?  By hurting Abbott, she is also hurting the majority of Aussie voters.

  Howard handed over a surplus and then Gillard deliberately puts Australia into severe financial difficulties just because she doesn't like Abbott?  If so, I would call that irresponsible, undemocratic and she is not fit to be PM.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Abbott is going to be caught out with a lack of revenue so other than superannuation where will the money come from?



Do you consider that our economic circumstanses are such that there will be no choice in relation to increasing the corporate tax rate ?

If that's the case, it speaks volumes about where you truely stand on the current government's economic management.


----------



## dutchie

sails said:


> If so, I would call that irresponsible, undemocratic and she is not fit to be PM.




So whats new??

Its not Abbott Abbott Abbott but for Julia its

Julia Julia Julia Julia Julia (or me me me me me)


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Abbott is going to be caught out with a lack of revenue so other than superannuation where will the money come from?



I have to agree with you IFocus, sad isn't it. 2007 - 2013 massive mining boom and what do we have to show for it?
Half baked N.B.N, $hit loads of detainees, huge increase in government debt and of course huge payrises for our politicians.LOL
Yep I think everyone wants to go home from the party and deal with the hangover.
It's fun going out with the loonies, but eventualy you have to go home and face the music.


----------



## DB008

*Big boost for Gillard in latest Newspoll*



> Julia Gillard is leading Tony Abbott as preferred prime minister by the biggest margin in more than a year, according to a Newspoll released today.
> 
> The poll, published in The Australian newspaper today, shows Ms Gillard is 14 points ahead of Mr Abbott as preferred PM.
> 
> In the last fortnight her support rose from 39 per cent to 46 per cent, while Mr Abbott's fell from 38 per cent to 32 per cent.
> 
> Labor's primary vote rose three points to 36 per cent while the Coalition shed five points to 41 per cent.
> 
> But the parties are neck and neck on 50 per cent each in the two-party preferred standings.
> 
> The Greens have also recovered from a bad result earlier this month, with their primary vote increasing from a three-and-a-half year low of 8 per cent to 12 per cent.
> 
> The poll has a margin of error of 3 per cent.
> 
> The poll's release comes one day after Ms Gillard used the ALP's Queensland conference to mark her re-entry into the political fray following the death of her father.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-17/big-boost-for-gillard-in-latest-newspoll/4264478


----------



## MrBurns

This just confirms BS will win and as Gillard is a master at this it only encourages more undeliverable promises and lies


----------



## sails

Is today's newspoll really accurate?  It seems out of sync with other professional pollsters:

Strange how Newspoll is out of whack with the other pollsters.

Neilsen (see link below to The Age)
2pp at 53:47 in favour of the libs.
Primary vote - Labor 34%, Coalition 45%
Preferred PM is 47:44 in favour of Gillard


Essential Report (last Monday):
2pp 55:45 in favour of the libs.
Primary vote - Labor 34%, Coalition 47%
Preferred PM is 40:37 in favour of Gillard


Newspoll:
2pp 50:50
Primary vote - Labor 36%, Coalition 41%
Preferred PM is 46:32 in favour of Gillard​

So, what's going on with Newspoll?

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...es-her-rise-20120916-260ms.html#ixzz26fKDEqVX

http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-133
http://essentialvision.com.au/better-prime-minister-34

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-17/big-boost-for-gillard-in-latest-newspoll/4264478


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> This just confirms BS will win and as Gillard is a master at this it only encourages more undeliverable promises and lies



If you're referring to the campaign Labor has been running saying a Federal Coalition would follow what Campbell Newman is doing in Queensland then it's not BS.  The Coalition has quite clearly said they will significantly cut the public service.

If today's polls are confirming a trend, then the irony might be that Labor could be re-elected and actually have to find a way to pay for their big spending promises, something I doubt they had counted on.


----------



## sails

Andrew Bolt has posted the same that Newspoll seems to be very much the odd one out.  And yet that's the one that is being bandied around.  

This might not even be a dead cat bounce 
- it might be a faulty data issue to put it into trading terms...




> There is an astonishing divergence between the major polls in measuring the 2PP vote.
> 
> Today’s Essential Research poll: Labor 45, Coalition 55.
> 
> Today’s Nielsen poll: Labor 47, Coalition 53.
> 
> Today’s Newspoll: Labor 50, Coalition 50.
> 
> Last week’s Roy Morgan poll: Labour 46.5, Coalition 53.5
> 
> Such a wide spread is unusual. I’d say the Newspoll is again far too kind to Labor.




http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg..._its_either_even_or_a_landslide_or_something/


----------



## sails

Have labor forgotten the public service jobs razor gang when Goss was in power in Qld and Kevin Rudd was his hatchet man?



> Veteran Queensland political observers say memories of the Rudd management style stretch back to the early 1990s when he was chief of staff to then-premier Wayne Goss. His penchant for control was legendary and his savage cuts to the public service earned him the name Dr Death.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...t-of-favour-in-queensland-20120225-1tv59.html


----------



## drsmith

Re-50/50 2PP Newspoll.

Call it Julia (Gillard). Bring it on.

I dare ya.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Do you consider that our economic circumstanses are such that there will be no choice in relation to increasing the corporate tax rate ?
> 
> If that's the case, it speaks volumes about where you truely stand on the current government's economic management.




Think you totally missed the point a hole in revenue is nothing to do Labor or mining booms Abbott simply wont have the cash and its every thing to do with the GST / tax cuts thanks to Howard / Costello backed up in small part by Rudd.

Tell us where will Abbott get the revenue.............maybe a great big new tax rise like Cando.....sorry Cantax and then lecture the company's that complain about closing because they don't know how to run a business.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> a hole in revenue is nothing to do Labor or mining booms Abbott simply wont have the cash and its every thing to do with the GST / tax cuts thanks to Howard / Costello backed up in small part by Rudd.



What?  The incoming Labor government inherited a healthy surplus.  They then proceeded to waste it in a panic response to the GFC.  They continue with their wildly extravagant plans for which they have yet to explain the funding, e.g. dental scheme, increased aged care, NDIS, Gonski-inspired education changes.  All announced in feel good motherhood statements but not an iota of explanation as to how they will be paid for.

Labor, always true to form.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Gillard has a plan. Federal Labor has successfully managed to trash most of the major states Labor governments. This bodes well for Ms Gilllard.

Why?

When the next Fed election comes around, many Orstralian voters will yet again be faced with the conundrum of whether to hand over total power of political government to the Liberals/Nationals - or, keep Labor in power federally as a "check" on the Liberal states power stranglehold. The same argument was trotted out successfully by J.H. when Labor had a state stranglehold in the not-too-distant past (see pic - courtesy Wikipedia). 

I'm sure this issue will be successfully raised by Ms Gillard from time to time in the run-up to her 2013 re-election.

Ergo, look forward to 4 more years of the same from Ms Gillard & Co..

Bliss....


----------



## drsmith

S&P says Australia heading for $20b+ deficit.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-19/standard-and-poors-says-australia-heading-for-deficit/4269980


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> S&P says Australia heading for $20b+ deficit.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-19/standard-and-poors-says-australia-heading-for-deficit/4269980




lol - what took them so long to work that out?


----------



## sptrawler

Aussiejeff said:


> Gillard has a plan. Federal Labor has successfully managed to trash most of the major states Labor governments. This bodes well for Ms Gilllard.
> 
> Why?
> 
> When the next Fed election comes around, many Orstralian voters will yet again be faced with the conundrum of whether to hand over total power of political government to the Liberals/Nationals - or, keep Labor in power federally as a "check" on the Liberal states power stranglehold. The same argument was trotted out successfully by J.H. when Labor had a state stranglehold in the not-too-distant past (see pic - courtesy Wikipedia).
> 
> I'm sure this issue will be successfully raised by Ms Gillard from time to time in the run-up to her 2013 re-election.
> 
> Ergo, look forward to 4 more years of the same from Ms Gillard & Co..
> 
> Bliss....




If that happened, workers had better press the big red panic button. IMO wages and super would be under a real cloud.


----------



## drsmith

It seems the noises about the underlying health of our economy are growing.

Ross Garnaut doesn't mince words.



> Ross Garnaut, the Hawke government economist who predicted the rise of China, has warned Australians to prepare for a living standards bust as the resources boom gives way to falling export prices and a slump in mines development.




Nor does former Reserve Bank of Australia board member and economist Bob Gregory although he's all for more debt and stimulus.



> Australia would experience “a large deflationary impact” over the next few years that would require the cushion of budget deficits to finance big-scale infrastructure.
> 
> “The production and export of resource commodities will rise as projects are completed but this will generate few jobs and limited domestic income to offset the terms of trade decline and the falls in mining investment,” he writes in an opinion article in the Financial Review.




Also, this about China.



> The Financial Review reported yesterday that officials in China’s central bank say they aren’t too concerned about the slowdown, comments which make intervention by the government seem less likely.




Perhaps they want to pick up some resource assets on the cheap.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/brace_for_falling_living_standards_flu2oHFYGZsmYCPZhOzKDJ


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> It seems the noises about the underlying health of our economy are growing.
> 
> Ross Garnaut doesn't mince words.
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does former Reserve Bank of Australia board member and economist Bob Gregory although he's all for more debt and stimulus.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, this about China.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps they want to pick up some resource assets on the cheap.
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/brace_for_falling_living_standards_flu2oHFYGZsmYCPZhOzKDJ




The business community has been harping on about productivity for years and this government has sat on its hands. Australia is like a slow moving train wreck in waiting. You can see where we are headed and yet nothing is being done. 

On another note labor has failed with the dental scheme and live exports to Indonesia are still feeling the after affects of this government. Have they run anything apart from slandering Abbott right.


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> On another note labor has failed with the dental scheme and live exports to Indonesia are still feeling the after affects of this government.



What has happened to their dental scheme, recently announced, though still unfunded?  Have they taken it off the table?


----------



## white_goodman

IFocus said:


> Think you totally missed the point a hole in revenue is nothing to do Labor or mining booms Abbott simply wont have the cash and its every thing to do with the GST / tax cuts thanks to Howard / Costello backed up in small part by Rudd.
> 
> Tell us where will Abbott get the revenue.............maybe a great big new tax rise like Cando.....sorry Cantax and then lecture the company's that complain about closing because they don't know how to run a business.




increasing tax rates does not mean increasing tax revenue...


----------



## sails

So, we are billions in debt and now Swan has donated $500,000 of taxpayer funds to pay for carbon accounting in Kenya, what gives him the right?  



> TREASURER Wayne Swan, who today said US Republicans are economic "crazies", has been linked to a Government gift of $550,000 to a foundation run by former US President, Democrat Bill Clinton.
> 
> The taxpayers' money four days ago went to the former president's Clinton Foundation to pay for carbon accounting in Kenya.



Treasurer Wayne Swan linked to Democrat charity donation


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> What?  The incoming Labor government inherited a healthy surplus.  They then proceeded to waste it in a panic response to the GFC.  They continue with their wildly extravagant plans for which they have yet to explain the funding, e.g. dental scheme, increased aged care, NDIS, Gonski-inspired education changes.  All announced in feel good motherhood statements but not an iota of explanation as to how they will be paid for.
> 
> Labor, always true to form.




Gillard would have to raise taxes in one form or another to pay for all her extravagant promises. According to one of the newspapers I was reading recently, Labor MP’s are now pressing Gillard to do exactly that.


----------



## sptrawler

IMO the union super funds, will be pushing like mad to stop members being able to access their money. I can't think why


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> IMO the union super funds, will be pushing like mad to stop members being able to access their money. I can't think why



The government will beat the unions to it.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...n-superannuation/story-fnbkvnk7-1226478848816


----------



## sptrawler

This is another chesnut from Labor,
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...yes-election-resurrection-20120922-26d6u.html

We need a highly educated and competitive workforce. Well from my experience, the unions got rid of the junior certificate, leaving certificate, matriculation. 
Apparently they put too much pressure on students to remember things and too much pressure on teachers to teach things.
Back then we had a highly regarded educational system, my memory may not be correct, but I thought politically motivated teachers union reps flexed their muscles and stuffed our education system.
Funnily now the same government is saying they are going to fix it, what a joke.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> The government will beat the unions to it.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...n-superannuation/story-fnbkvnk7-1226478848816



Sigh.  Another link only available to subscribers.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> The government will beat the unions to it.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...n-superannuation/story-fnbkvnk7-1226478848816




Well I think the tax side is a screen for the liquidity side. Pre gfc the all ords was 6700, now it is 4300 and the reports are saying everything is o.k.LOL

There is a huge lack of confidence, that is due to the government IMO. 
The pro government press can talk it up as much as they like, but unless that translates into consumer spending or share market rally it's bull$hit.
Middle Australia has no confidence in this government. Get over it.


----------



## sptrawler

Here is another classic labor spin.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/flexible-work-bid-stalls-20120921-26cge.html

First paragraph, labor want a better work - life balance. LOL
Increase retirement age to 67 and reduce the amount workers can put into their super, what a joke.
Actually indications would show that labor would like workers to work untill they drop. How ironic is that?
The very reason the labor party was formed, is beginning to look like it is morphing into.


----------



## drsmith

Labor's next tax increase ?



> It is hardly unexpected that a large number of superannuation fund members are taking their money and making a run for it by setting up their own self-managed superannuation funds. All the growth is in the SMSF space, with estimates of funds close to $400 billion in SMSFs, compared with $340bn in retail funds and $225bn in industry funds.
> 
> Predictably, neither the industry superannuation funds nor the trade unions are happy about the trend towards SMSFs and want the government to do something to thwart their growth. Only last week, we had Tim Lyons of the ACTU, who incidentally is a trustee of one of the large industry superannuation funds, make the "helpful" suggestion that "if you're looking for ways to make the taxation of super more equitable and to make a contribution to the budget bottom line, the SMSFs are the place to look".




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-quitting-super/story-fnbkvnk7-1226479828038


----------



## drsmith

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3596448.htm



> SABRA LANE: During the next 12 months until polling day, the economy will be front and centre of the political debate, with the Government keen to do just about anything, to return the budget to surplus - except for one thing - it's giving the impression it won't cut public service numbers, but more on that shortly.
> 
> First to this morning's fiscal update. The Acting Prime Minister Wayne Swan and the Finance Minister Penny Wong revealed they were pretty much "on the money" with their forecast in May that the 2011/12 financial year would result in a $44.4 billion deficit.
> 
> WAYNE SWAN: Now the underlying cash deficit for 2011/12 showed a small improvement of $661 million from the May budget estimate. This is the smallest variation between the budget estimate and a final outcome for a decade. Good work Penny.




Yeah, good work Penny. 

It's only a $21bn blowout from their 2011/12 budget forecast issued in May 2011.

http://www.budget.gov.au/2011-12/content/overview/html/overview_40.htm

Despite it's track record, Labor is still banging on about delivering it's surplus in 2012/13.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-than-predicted/story-fn59nsif-1226480129745

We'll know when they've given up on that. They'll call an election.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3596448.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, good work Penny.
> 
> It's only a $21bn blowout from their 2011/12 budget forecast issued in May 2011.
> 
> http://www.budget.gov.au/2011-12/content/overview/html/overview_40.htm
> 
> Despite it's track record, Labor is still banging on about delivering it's surplus in 2012/13.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-than-predicted/story-fn59nsif-1226480129745
> 
> We'll know when they've given up on that. They'll call an election.





And probably go to great lengths hide the dismal fiscal position from the average voter and then whine like crazy when the libs bring in the necessary austerity measures?  About right?

And heaven help us if labor get back in - how will they manage the finances and fund all their promises then?


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Labor's next tax increase ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-quitting-super/story-fnbkvnk7-1226479828038




I wonder why the union run industry superfunds are upset about people removing their money. 
I can't guess.LOL

By the way, good pick up Doc.


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> I wonder why the union run industry superfunds are upset about people removing their money.
> I can't guess.LOL
> 
> By the way, good pick up Doc.



This is off-topic  - but I have always wondered what happens when those who setup SMSFs realise in 10 years that their returns are no better (or probably worse) because they didn't bother to educate themselves properly about investing?   I know first hand that the majority of my clients who have SMSFs (and we have 400 funds) either use a financial planner (and lots of "managed funds") or buy blue chip shares or have a commercial premises (that they use for their business) / holiday unit in the fund.  Some clients have excellent returns, but you can tell after looking at their balance sheets that they have worked hard at it.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> This is off-topic  - but I have always wondered what happens when those who setup SMSFs realise in 10 years that their returns are no better (or probably worse) because they didn't bother to educate themselves properly about investing?   I know first hand that the majority of my clients who have SMSFs (and we have 400 funds) either use a financial planner (and lots of "managed funds") or buy blue chip shares or have a commercial premises (that they use for their business) / holiday unit in the fund.  Some clients have excellent returns, but you can tell after looking at their balance sheets that they have worked hard at it.




I suppose the main difference is, at the end of the day, if you have a SMSF and you lose the money it is your fault.
It is hard to reconcile your apathy, when you have entrusted your life savings to someone else and they lose it.
How many H.I.H and Storm events are going to happen in the next few years?

Another way of looking at it is, you can put the money in fixed term at 5.5% at least you are treading water, better than -2% plus withdrawls.


----------



## dutchie

Talk about an own goal

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...promises_three_spenders_for_every_one_earner/

"PM promises three more spenders for every earner"

I’m astonished the Prime Minister should think this a reassuring statistic to economists:

    The PM was to have told a group of New York economists that Australia’s economy is less reliant on the mining boom than is widely thought, and will predict that in the next four years, three times as many jobs will be created in healthcare, social assistance, education and training as in mining.

That’s not proof of less reliance on the mining boom but too, too much. Mining earns money. Jobs in health care, social assistance, education and training spends it. What Gillard has said is that she may be earning less, but plans to spend more.

UPDATE

Wayne Swan promises the spenders - public service jobs - will be spared the cuts earners are suffering, even as his Budget blows:

    Mr Swan vowed to meet what he said was a “significant” shortfall in tax revenue with fresh budget savings.

    However, he promised they would be “cuts with Labor values”, signalling that the government would avoid the public service staff reductions that Queensland Premier Campbell Newman has implemented with the backing of Tony Abbott…

    Mr Swan said company tax had raised $876 million less than Treasury’s forecast in May and the trend had continued into the 2012-13 financial year…

    “It makes it harder to deliver a budget surplus and does mean we’ll have to find more savings.”

Another broken promise:


    ...the public sector has grown by an average of 0.8 per cent a year over the five years Labor has been in office.

    In 2007, Kevin Rudd vowed to take a “meat axe” to the bloated public service in his final address before the election.





More evidence that this Government has already spent the record income that is now evaporating fast - and spent more than it’s ever had:

    ...the 2011-12 deficit of $43.7 billion is double what was forecast just 15 months ago and completes a run of four historically high deficits. Net government debt has risen to almost $150bn or 10 per cent of GDP…

    During the past five years, federal receipts have increased 21 per cent, but payments have grown 46 per cent. 

*What’s worse than this massive spending is what it’s been spent on - the trash of pink batts, green schemes and overpriced school halls, as well as the fixed costs of extra public servants. The Government has not invested in our future, but spent it.  *

(my bolds)


----------



## sails

Will they ever be able to live within taxpayer's means?



> THE Government is being forced to re-write the Budget it delivered just four months ago by a slump in prices for Australia's minerals, Wayne Swan acknowledged today.
> 
> The hint of an emergency mini-Budget late in the year came as official figures showed the Government did slightly better than forecast but still had a deficit of close to $44 billion in 2011-12.




Read more:
Australian Federal Budget deficit for 2011 to 2012 of $43.7 billion forces rewrite of 2012 Budget


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Will they ever be able to live within taxpayer's means?
> 
> 
> 
> Read more:
> Australian Federal Budget deficit for 2011 to 2012 of $43.7 billion forces rewrite of 2012 Budget




It doesn't sound good, they have painted themselves into a corner.
The big problem is they have upped non personal tax reciepts just about as much as they can.
Like we've been saying all along sooner or later someone has to face the music for the binge.

On a side note Lindsay Tanner has summed it up pretty well, he thinks labor will do anything to stay in power.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/labors-future-bleak-tanner-20120925-26jhp.html

At last a bit of honesty from the labor grass roots, hopefully this gets the rank and file to rise up. Instead of gormlessly watching on as the self servers run the show at the expense of our future.IMO


----------



## dutchie

sptrawler said:


> On a side note Lindsay Tanner has summed it up pretty well, he thinks labor will do anything to stay in power.
> 
> 
> :




Like this...

from:   http://youngconservativeau.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/exclusive-labor-caught-out-spreading.html


Tuesday, 25 September 2012
EXCLUSIVE: Labor caught out spreading propaganda and hate to school students 
Note: If republishing this story, please credit Musings of a Young Conservative blog or youngconservativeau.blogspot.com 
The NSW Labor Party have been caught out spreading malicious personal attacks and political propaganda to school students. The party founded a Facebook page called 'Students against school cuts', and have illegally failed to carry an authorisation. 

In edition, the party has been caught out pretending the page was founded by concerned students with misleading lines such as 'We don't vote - so we need you to'. Other misleading statements include: 'We've started this page because high school and TAFE students deserve better. As high school students, we want a Government that increases funding for schools - not cut it. Join our parents, friends, teachers and family in supporting and speaking out against these cuts on our page.' 

The party is only caught out when you follow the links to the 'Contact Website', which is www.saveourschools.net.au. On the bottom of this website is this text:

Yes. The so-called 'high-school student' happens to be NSW Labor boss Sam Dastyari. And this shameless farce continue, with the Labor party asking for donations:

Back to the Facebook page, and the party is spreading malicious comments and untruths to school students. In edition they are posting these photos:


Here is a most telling image. The image was posted in 'Canberra, Australia Capital Territory.' Why would a New South Wales student opposed to school cuts be in the ACT?


Here the page is posting a like to a site called 'Scumbag Barry', whilst a Labor supporter predicts Mr O'Farrell will lose the next election, despite having a huge majority and being well ahead in the polls:


But here are some of the most shocking revalations of all. The NSW Labor Party took unauthorised and potenially illegal signs into NSW Schools. Here are Newtown Performing Arts School students with Labor Party signs: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.394367077299012.90828.392932850775768&type=1 and here are students of Sydney Girls High with the posters: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.393306804071706.90497.392932850775768&type=1. Here are students of Pennant Hills High with the signs: http://www.facebook.com/StudentsAga....393991047336615.90719.392932850775768&type=3


The claims made on the page about teachers losing their jobs are hysterical and untrue. No teacher will lose their job, the Government has promised. 
For some unknown reason, the page has also published these unflattering images of Mr O'Farrell and Federal Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott:


more here: http://www.facebook.com/StudentsAga....392976140771439.90378.392932850775768&type=3

You would have thought the NSW Labor Party had better things to do than set up vile abusive and juvenile Facebook pages. 
UPDATE: Here is an ad flogging the site. These ads cost up to $2 per click. I highly doubt a 'concerned student' would fork out the money on this.

Posted by Musings of a Young Conservative at 07:50 
Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to Facebook


Typical Labor


----------



## drsmith

This will be a must watch,

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...monsters_tanner_for_suggesting_labor_improve/

Paul Kelly's take on Lindsay Tanner's decision to speak out,

http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2283660652/Why-trashing-Rudd-hurts-Labor


----------



## Julia

That was just an extraordinary interview on "7.30" tonight with Lindsay Tanner, who - now freed from the constrictions of being a member of the government - apparently felt free to let fly with his criticisms.

In response, Leigh Sales made her own political bias damagingly clear in her vicious attack on Mr Tanner.

She seems to have decided that the path to success in the top political interviewing slot in the country lies in rapping out sharp questions, the next one coming before her respondent has had a chance to answer the first.
She even talked over Mr Tanner to the tune of several sentences at one stage.

I couldn't help thinking how a government run by Lindsay Tanner, perhaps with Chris Bowen as Deputy, would be a wholly different proposition from the present.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> That was just an extraordinary interview on "7.30" tonight with Lindsay Tanner, who - now freed from the constrictions of being a member of the government - apparently felt free to let fly with his criticisms.
> 
> In response, Leigh Sales made her own political bias damagingly clear in her vicious attack on Mr Tanner.
> 
> She seems to have decided that the path to success in the top political interviewing slot in the country lies in rapping out sharp questions, the next one coming before her respondent has had a chance to answer the first.
> She even talked over Mr Tanner to the tune of several sentences at one stage.
> 
> I couldn't help thinking how a government run by Lindsay Tanner, perhaps with Chris Bowen as Deputy, would be a wholly different proposition from the present.




Sales didnt get way with it and looked the fool.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Sales didnt get way with it and looked the fool.



He clearly had her measure and she didn't like it. If she doesn't want to be seen as a tebloid interviewer, then perhaps she shouldn't interview like one.

The version aired on ABC TV was edited as evidenced by the lack of pauses between some of his answers and her next question. This was confirmed by Leigh at the end of the segment.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> He clearly had her measure and she didn't like it. If she doesn't want to be seen as a tebloid interviewer, then perhaps she shouldn't interview like one.
> 
> The version aired on ABC TV was edited as evidenced by the lack of pauses between some of his answers and her next question. This was confirmed by Leigh at the end of the segment.





Lindsay Tanner was very credible and it showed, no pretence there, good on him and I hope he feels better for purging.....


----------



## sptrawler

Obviously it is not only Tony that has trouble with nasty women, everybody else does.LOL,LOL
Leigh Sales obviously pulled out the handbag.
Seems like this is labors latest ploy, get the girls to show how nasty they can be, I can't see where that is going.


----------



## sptrawler

Isn't it great how on the 26th Michelle Gratten was using  Lindsay Tanners comments to bag the government
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/labors-future-bleak-tanner-20120925-26jhp.html

Yet today she manages to get an anti Abbott spin on it.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...e-to-sucking-up-for-votes-20120926-26khv.html


When you're a politician, you run into every person you've ever met in your entire life. In an observation fitting Tony Abbott's experience, Tanner observes that sometimes the politician hopes a person they encounter doesn't remember the ''excruciatingly embarrassing incident'' that happened when they are 19. (Abbott's problem, of course, that all his old acquaintances seem to remember everything

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...p-for-votes-20120926-26khv.html#ixzz27g8LQER3

Well Michelle, doesn't everyone remember Gillard, Thomson's excruciating incidents, obviously your obsessed with Tony's .
I think in 12 months a lot of pro labor reporters will be wondering why they were so hoodwinked.

I would think they are good fodder for a commune or a relegious sect that requires gormless diciples, that is only my opinion and I may be wrong. But I don't think so.
It actually is probably contributing to the decline of newspapers, who wants to pay to listen to someones personal dislikes.


----------



## sails

MrBurns said:


> Lindsay Tanner was very credible and it showed, no pretence there, good on him and I hope he feels better for purging.....





Not sure if this has already been posted, but here is the video of the extended version of the 7:30 report with Tanner:  http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3598557.htm


Just a shame they didn't make Tanner PM instead of Gillard.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Just a shame they didn't make Tanner PM instead of Gillard.



+1.


----------



## Calliope

Tanner's Book.


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> Tanner's Book.
> 
> View attachment 49109




ASF threads top left.


----------



## MrBurns

Iran is in a state of panic, Julia Gillard has told them they have to change their behaviour NOW.

They are afraid that uncontrollable laughter may dislodge the gold in their teeth.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Tanner's Book.
> 
> View attachment 49109



If she said AA to AK, it wouldn't be a stutter.


----------



## sptrawler

The mini budget is on its way, so what better time to find that the population is a lot richer than they think.


The upward revisions to wealth also mean households do not look quite as stretched when compared to their debts.

The ABS now estimates the ratio of debt to liquid assets was 129.1 per cent in March, well down on the original estimate of 170.1 per cent.

There have been long-standing concerns that the high debt levels of Australian households left them vulnerable to an economic shock such as a sharp rise in the, currently low, 5.1 per cent unemployment rate

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/t...mps-by-325b-20120927-26ngo.html#ixzz27lJ3ZlBC


----------



## Happy

sptrawler said:


> ...
> There have been long-standing concerns that the high debt levels of Australian households left them vulnerable to an economic shock such as a sharp rise in the, currently low, 5.1 per cent unemployment rate
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/t...mps-by-325b-20120927-26ngo.html#ixzz27lJ3ZlBC




Another good reason to sharply reduce immigration


----------



## sptrawler

Happy said:


> Another good reason to sharply reduce immigration




NO another good reason to increase immigration, keep downward pressure on wages, therefore inflation. That in turn keeps the value in your currency, which also keeps a lid on inflation.


----------



## drsmith

This just serves to reinforce Lindsay Tanner's point.



> CONSERVATIVE states are not responsible for big hikes in electricity prices and do not need to be threatened in a quest for ''cheap'' headlines, Resources Minister Martin Ferguson has said, just months after Prime Minister Julia Gillard made such claims.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...d-over-electricity-prices-20120927-26o99.html



> UNION leader Paul Howes has hit out at Resources Minister Martin Ferguson, accusing him of repeatedly undermining the Gillard government.
> 
> Mr Howes said Mr Ferguson's contradiction of Julia Gillard on the source of power price rises should come as no surprise.
> 
> "Martin Ferguson bagging his own side, there's nothing new in that," he said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ng-julia-gillard/story-e6frg6n6-1226483223658


----------



## sptrawler

Well Doc, Ferguson has allways seemed to be a straight shooter.
Maybe he is getting fed up with the labor parties, pension and career before country, attitude.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Well Doc, Ferguson has allways seemed to be a straight shooter.
> Maybe he is getting fed up with the labor parties, pension and career before country, attitude.



I suspect he will follow the path of Lindsay Tanner or will be pushed.

He doesn't fit with modern Labor which is unfortunate for both the party and the country as a whole.


----------



## ROE

They thinking of dipping their dirty hands into SMSF ...

The federal government is examining plans to crack down on the $439 billion self-managed super sector by handing the corporate regulator sweeping powers to ban, suspend and impose conditions on do-it-yourself super savers.

The government is also examining plans to impose hundreds of dollars in levies for the average $470,000 DIY fund to establish a “last resort” compensation scheme for the sector in the event of a repeat of frauds such as the $176 million collapse of Trio Capital in 2009.

Federal Labor is already examining cutting as much as $15 billion in annual tax breaks from the rapidly expanding sector to help save its budget surplus.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/labor_plans_crackdown_on_smsfs_9sv1BxHITkDskEWDPgq5nL


----------



## drsmith

ROE said:


> They thinking of dipping their dirty hands into SMSF ...



Super is well and truely in their sights as widely reported by the media.

It is a fault of both sides that super is ultimately seen as a budget backstop. The sector needs tax reform, but in a much broader context than overcoming poor financial management (Labor) and buying votes (Coalition).

On another front, ABC (radio news) has reported that the government won't be aboe to providing it's monthly update on MRRT collections to the Senate until December. Perhaps it's going to take that long for a non-zero number to appear left of the decimal point.


----------



## Julia

ROE said:


> They thinking of dipping their dirty hands into SMSF ...
> 
> The federal government is examining plans to crack down on the $439 billion self-managed super sector by handing the corporate regulator sweeping powers to ban, suspend and impose conditions on do-it-yourself super savers.
> 
> The government is also examining plans to impose hundreds of dollars in levies for the average $470,000 DIY fund to establish a “last resort” compensation scheme for the sector in the event of a repeat of frauds such as the $176 million collapse of Trio Capital in 2009.



We do not need a compensation scheme for SMSFs.  If you don't know what you're doing and are at risk of being suckered into dodgy stuff, you shouldn't be running your own Fund.


----------



## Kulio

Julia said:


> We do not need a compensation scheme for SMSFs.  If you don't know what you're doing and are at risk of being suckered into dodgy stuff, you shouldn't be running your own Fund.



Useless post as always. You should stick to calling 16 year old girls stupid when going through a McDonald's driveway in that thread you started or advising people to stick with fixed interest investments. Hey or give a few more +1s here and there.


----------



## MrBurns

Kulio said:


> Useless post as always. You should stick to calling 16 year old girls stupid when going through a McDonald's driveway in that thread you started or advising people to stick with fixed interest investments. Hey or give a few more +1s here and there.




I think I speak for everyone when I say, you and your nasty remarks aren't welcome in here.

There must be a kiddies forum somewhere you can pollute.


----------



## DB008

The Gov raiding super is like a kid in a candy shop.

How long will they be able to resist the temptation???


----------



## sptrawler

ROE said:


> The government is also examining plans to impose hundreds of dollars in levies for the average $470,000 DIY fund to establish a “last resort” compensation scheme for the sector in the event of a repeat of frauds such as the $176 million collapse of Trio Capital in 2009.
> 
> Federal Labor is already examining cutting as much as $15 billion in annual tax breaks from the rapidly expanding sector to help save its budget surplus.
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/labor_plans_crackdown_on_smsfs_9sv1BxHITkDskEWDPgq5nL




I wonder if the last resort compensation scheme will be run by the government, everyone puts in and nobody can qualify for a payment.LOL.

It will be interesting to see how the government discriminates against a complying SMSF, then again fairness and decency hasn't been this governments strong pionts.IMO


----------



## Happy

sptrawler said:


> NO another good reason to increase immigration, *keep downward pressure on wages*, therefore inflation. That in turn keeps the value in your currency, *which also keeps a lid on inflation*.




But oppens bottom on housing shortage, pressure on Medicare, compounds Hospitals emergency problems, road congestions, water shortages, overcrowding of trains to name the few.

Suppose Reinhard's $2 an hour looks inevitable too.


----------



## sptrawler

Happy said:


> But oppens bottom on housing shortage, pressure on Medicare, compounds Hospitals emergency problems, road congestions, water shortages, overcrowding of trains to name the few.
> 
> Suppose Reinhard's $2 an hour looks inevitable too.




Don't you remember, Rudd and the labor party wanting a 'Big Australia'? They weren't talking about increasing the land mass.

As for Reinhards $2/ hr it would never happen, nobody in the HSU would be able to pay their union dues. The knock on effect to the 'personal entertainment' industry would be catastrophic.


----------



## Kulio

PHP:
	






MrBurns said:


> I think I speak for everyone when I say, you and your nasty remarks aren't welcome in here.
> 
> There must be a kiddies forum somewhere you can pollute.




So trolling the TLS thread by you wasn't immature?


----------



## sptrawler

This is bit rough, "biteing the hand that feeds you" so to speak.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ct-aust-seat-bid/story-fn3dxiwe-1226484064407
Maybe they've realised jumping all over Tony wasn't the best move. I for one think Tony cares more about the Aboriginal plight, than any of the labor party.
He has a problem with not crapping on about himself, unlike labor, who will take on any ones cause as long as it means they stay in office.LOL
Shallow, just very shallow. I will be suprised if the public don't see through it. 
Unfortunatelly cheap tricks have worked in the past.


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> The Gov raiding super is like a kid in a candy shop.
> 
> How long will they be able to resist the temptation???



The stuff coming out in the media is the softening up process.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> I for one think Tony cares more about the Aboriginal plight, than any of the labor party.
> He has a problem with not crapping on about himself, unlike labor, who will take on any ones cause as long as it means they stay in office.LOL
> Shallow, just very shallow. I will be suprised if the public don't see through it.
> Unfortunatelly cheap tricks have worked in the past.




I agree I think Tony is a decent person, yes he'll pull a few tricks to get rid of Labor but who wouldn't.

He trained as a priest and I think that shows he has a caring nature.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> I agree I think Tony is a decent person, yes he'll pull a few tricks to get rid of Labor but who wouldn't.
> 
> He trained as a priest and I think that shows he has a caring nature.




I personaly don't give a ratz ar$e about the priest stuff, you can't hold that up a a badge anymore.IMO
What I like about him is everyone pays out on him for being stupid, yet he's a Rhodes scholar and is yet to be proved wrong on most of the issues to date.
Everyone says he's agressive, yet I haven't seen him lose his temper.
Everyone say's he's irrational, yet only the government, excluding Bowen and Ferguson, seem the most irrational people on the planet.
Funny how reporters see it all differently, I think they are the sad section of society in decline. They are having difficulty adapting to a better informed public, where once they made comment and people sucked it up. Now they are saying" what a load of crap".
Unless these political, social and financial reporters focus their skills on articulating the issues acurately they will go the way of the dinasours.
W--nking on their own beliefs doesn't cut it anymore. 
I enjoyed that rant.LOL


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> As for Reinhards $2/ hr it would never happen, nobody in the HSU would be able to pay their union dues. The knock on effect to the 'personal entertainment' industry would be catastrophic.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> I personaly don't give a ratz ar$e about the priest stuff, you can't hold that up a a badge anymore.IMO
> What I like about him is everyone pays out on him for being stupid, yet he's a Rhodes scholar and is yet to be proved wrong on most of the issues to date.
> Everyone says he's agressive, yet I haven't seen him lose his temper.
> Everyone say's he's irrational, yet only the government, excluding Bowen and Ferguson, seem the most irrational people on the planet.
> Funny how reporters see it all differently, I think they are the sad section of society in decline. They are having difficulty adapting to a better informed public, where once they made comment and people sucked it up. Now they are saying" what a load of crap".
> Unless these political, social and financial reporters focus their skills on articulating the issues acurately they will go the way of the dinasours.
> W--nking on their own beliefs doesn't cut it anymore.
> I enjoyed that rant.LOL




Just to highlight my point.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/mor...-afl-grand-final/story-e6frf9jf-1226483959580

Sad reporting, why would you pay to keep reading bias like that.LOL
Fairfax is going down the tube with labor, unfortunately it shouldn't be this way, however some industries and companies can't adapt.
Maybe they should have looked into what Gillard said about rugby. No they can't do that.LOL


----------



## sptrawler

*The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*

Um, I thought this would be a good thread for the Labor followers to espouse the virtues of the current government.
I think it only fitting that positive comments, that relate to the government, be posted.
This should keep the thread as short as possible.
The positive comments should be backed up by links.
I certainly look forward to  so-cynical and IFocus filling the page with positive posts that uplift our trust and belief in the government.LOL,LOL


----------



## DB008

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*

I asked a friend of mine votes Left and I asked him why....

His response -
'The Libs and Labor are pretty much the same now days. Only difference between them is that the Greens sided with Labor. Also, you need Labor because they build big infrastructure projects (like the NBN).'


----------



## Crom

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*

If it is only positive comments you are after, it should indeed be a very very short thread!


----------



## Calliope

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*



sptrawler said:


> I certainly look forward to  so-cynical and IFocus filling the page with positive posts that uplift our trust and belief in the government.LOL,LOL




In other words, you are trolling. DNL,DNL.


----------



## sptrawler

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*



Calliope said:


> In other words, you are trolling. DNL,DNL.




Actually I'm not, I really would like to know if anyone can think of a positive contribution this government has done since 2007. 
I honestly can't and yet I am sure they must have done something positive, that they will be remembered for.
I mean if you think back to Gough, he brought in single mothers pensions. This enable mothers to leave a violent domestic situation and support their children. Prior to that women just had to suck it up.
Hawke/ Keating floated the dollar, introduced medicare and universal superannuation.
Howard introduced the G.S.T and reduced personal taxes, average incomes rose 25% and tis was carried out in an equitable way. The bottom and top 10% ended up with about the same amount of income boost, this was carried out while still reducing government debt.
Now what has happened since 2007, out of control spending with nothing to show for it. No social changes of any note, increased taxes both personal and business. Failed border protection policy, failed carbon policy no closing of coal fired power stations. No direction no leadership.
I think it is a fair question, maybe I'm too critical and am overlooking something.

By the way I don't see the coalition offering anything either. Where has vision and purpose gone, is there any wonder people are running scared and saving like mad. They don't know what direction the ship will lurch in next.


----------



## drsmith

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*

The best thing about this government since sliced bread is that at the next election, it's toast.


----------



## waza1960

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*

Even though I really detest labour and everything it stands for I think the Computers 4 Schools program was reasonable and seems to be going ok.


----------



## sptrawler

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*



waza1960 said:


> Even though I really detest labour and everything it stands for I think the Computers 4 Schools program was reasonable and seems to be going ok.




Apparently not, this was in the papers three days ago.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...i-tech-low-point/story-e6frg6n6-1226482124955


----------



## waza1960

*Re: The Gillard Government is the best thing since sliced bread?*



> Apparently not, this was in the papers three days ago




 Fair enough I was just going by personal experience with my teenagers use of and can see where the financially disadvantaged's children would really benefit.
 Anyway this program was probably ahead of all their other disastrous programs


----------



## MrBurns

Great article by Peter Reith on the ABC web site - 



> Labor is now just a mouthpiece for a minority group who spend most of their time exploiting employers e.g. the MUA, ETU, CFMEU etc, or exploiting their members like the HSU or running financial services for the benefit of the directors. If Gillard wants to keep alive her prospects of a second term, she could do a lot worse than clean up the party machine.




http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4289520.html


----------



## drsmith

Why Julia Gillard comes across more polished with her spin than Tony Abbott.



> Labor's April 2012 Contact Directory, which is marked "Confidential Please Keep Secret At All Times", underscores business claims about the shift in Canberra from policy substance to political spin.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-art-of-spinning/story-fn59niix-1226486186791


----------



## DB008

*THIS* is how a lot of people who are in the 18-30 year old age group bracket think. 






They have also added; Step 5 - Gina Rinehart


----------



## dutchie

DB008 said:


> *THIS* is how a lot of people who are in the 18-30 year old age group bracket think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have also added; Step 5 - Gina Rinehart




Their still young and naive.


----------



## sptrawler

Well it's blame Tony again.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ng-blame-tony-says-abbott-20121002-26wem.html

It is a bit of a long bow, but hey when youre desperate.LOL
What about a bit of first hand, direct, unadulterated meglomania, with Conroy telling people he can make them wear their underpants on their heads.
Now that is an abuse of position/power, what if a teacher told his pupils he could make them do that?  What if a scout master told his scouts he could make them do that? What if your boss told you he could make you do that. Now that is as stupid, if not more stupid, than Jones.
How these goons can say Abbott is in some way connected and try to make milage, when their ******** made that statement is beyond belief. IMO


----------



## sptrawler

Well the resource super profit tax isn't going to pay for the binge on plasma t.v's, home insulation, b.e.r, school computers and their repair.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/mini...t-bear-market-in-20-years-20121003-26yhy.html

Lucky we managed to lock in the carbon tax and we can hammer the manufacturing, oh I forget that's closing down.LOL

Another term of this government and we will be in the same boat as Greece.

On a more uplifting note. 
Apparently Newman isn't as much on the nose as the press, labor and the union, would have you believe.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> On a more uplifting note.
> Apparently Newman isn't as much on the nose as the press, labor and the union, would have you believe.




That's right.  His popularity is little changed from the figures recorded just prior to the election.

He's doing what needs to be done, despite the predictable wailing from the public service and the unions.


----------



## drsmith

Peter Slipper isn't the only one copping it from the courts. Bill Shorten has also been given a serve.



> Justice Heydon said the circumstances of the case were "exceptional". This was because the minister's position before and during the hearing was "not that of an intervener, but that of a partisan".




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...san-bill-shorten/story-fn59noo3-1226487746127


----------



## sptrawler

I just heard on the news, some guy read out a dedication to Julia he said Australians to a man are behind her. 
Where is that comming from? Anyone know who the hell he is? Also how is that news?
What an absolute bloody joke.


----------



## drsmith

Shame on David Murray.

He stood between this government and its politics.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-04/comparing-greek-economy-to-australia27s-is-27absurd27/4295674


----------



## DB008

Didn't the future fund (under David Murray's control), sell a heap of Telstra shares just before a positive government announcement regarding Telstra? He's probably still bitter about that....

*(Typo) - Mr Abbott does make a valid point - it will be interesting to see how China's slow down, shrinking investment in the mining sector and the fall (my prediction) of our AUD will have an impact in the next few years...



> The lesson of Europe is that countries can go very quickly from a strong position to a parlous position if things aren't well managed," Mr Abbott told reporters in Melbourne.
> 
> "At the moment, we've got a Government which has completely mishandled the mining sector which is the one sector which above all else has kept Australia going.
> 
> "With its endless taxes, this Government is putting the economic future of our country at risk."


----------



## drsmith

In his interview on 7:30 last night, he was not partisan. He was critical of both the current government and the Howard government's fiscal management of the resources boom.


----------



## DB008

drsmith said:


> In his interview on 7:30 last night, he was not partisan. He was critical of both the current government and the Howard government's fiscal management of the resources boom.




Yes, this is true. However, Gillard and Co have introduced 2 new taxes which will effect the sector either directly or indirectly - MRRT and Carbon Tax, at peak of cycle.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> In his interview on 7:30 last night, he was not partisan. He was critical of both the current government and the Howard government's fiscal management of the resources boom.




He was really speaking about Labor and the stuff up of the stimulus package/s then Sales lept in with "but what about the Howard Govt but but but....they did something wrong too""""


----------



## Julia

> The lesson of Europe is that countries can go very quickly from a strong position to a parlous position if things aren't well managed," Mr Abbott told reporters in Melbourne.



This was one of Mr Murray's essential points.  Leigh Sales protested that we had so many advantages here in Australia we could never see ourselves in the situation Greece is at present.  Mr Murray pretty firmly told her that if something was not changed here we could indeed find ourselves in just such a situation.

I don't imagine Mr Murray will be on the government's Christmas Card List after that.


----------



## Calliope

A pair of nasties.



> It was entirely predictable that of the 102 Labor members of Federal Parliament, the two who sought to exploit the death of John Gillard for political advantage were Albanese and Swan. The Member for Gutter and the Member for Sewer sought to attach blame to Abbott for a distasteful remark made by the broadcaster Alan Jones about John Gillard's death. Abbott had encouraged the ugly tone, they said, with not a shred of irony.
> It was business as usual. These two have been alleging for months that Abbott has a personal problem with women, a scurrilous line that has no basis in fact and is overwhelmed by contrary evidence, starting with his wife and his three grown daughters who are proud of their father. I'm not suggesting that Labor has a monopoly on parliamentary boors. The Liberal shadow minister Sophie Mirabella would win the bronze medal in the boorishness competition after Swan (gold) and Albanese (silver).





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ck-in-trade-20121007-2776r.html#ixzz28eG47wZM


----------



## drsmith

As a true reflection of how Labor is going, this will be as good as it gets.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> As a true reflection of how Labor is going, this will be as good as it gets.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport




I think you are spot on Doc, the electorate has made its mind up. The only votes that labor get now are the gormeless rusted on union plebs that believe they are being represented. LOL
Or the select few that have credit cards.


----------



## sptrawler

By the way, all you labor people with clout. 
Now is the time for the stimulus package, shame you blew it four years ago, duh blind Freddy picked that one.
"Now we will see how the worlds greatest treasurer goes" LOL,LOL,LOL
It would be funny, if it wasn't so serious.:1zhelp:


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> As a true reflection of how Labor is going, this will be as good as it gets.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport



The Essentialvision data is very interesting.  There seems to be an anomaly, however, between the first preference + 2pp and the later tables characterising each of the leaders.  Gillard scores more highly than Abbott in pretty much everything, yet more respondents would vote Liberal than Labor.
Seems that, despite all the hype, the person actually leading each side is less important than we might think.


----------



## dutchie

Julia Gillard has a real problem with powerful men. Just look at the way she treats Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd.


----------



## bunyip

I think Gillard & Co might shoot themselves in the foot with their constant character assassination of Abbot. 

Anna Bligh and her Labor goons tried the same tactics against Campbell Newman in the QLD election. It didn’t work, if anything it lost votes for Labor by showing them up as a bunch of nasty little bastards who were so devoid of sensible polices and solutions to Queensland’s economic problems that they had to lower themselves to character assassination in a desperate effort to swing voters away from the opposition.

Bligh & Co learnt the hard way that lying about a decent person was not the way to impress voters. I think Gillard and Co might have to learn the same lesson.


----------



## dutchie

dutchie said:


> Julia Gillard has a real problem with powerful men. Just look at the way she treats Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd.




and Daryl Melham.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> and Daryl Melham.




and that hairdresser bloke, I mean whats that all about ?


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> and Daryl Melham.



Yes, Mr Melham's resignation from his position reflects very badly on Ms Gillard.


----------



## moXJO

Is labor starting the motions of tossing Gillard?


----------



## sptrawler

Poor old Julia is losing it again, everything is Tony's fault, it's a shame Tony doesn't lose it and give Julia some credibility.LOL
Julia's got to realise that she is responsible for the outcomes, Tony only gets milage out of poor goverment decissions.
Saying Tony is negative, is like a football team saying were losing because the other team says we can't kick a goal.
Why doesn't she stop thinking of herself and then the goals will come, it won't happen, it's all about her.LOL

She would be praying that Turnbull takes over from Abbott, someone she can slap around.
Imagine it" Why does the opposition carry on about the carbon tax? When their leader thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread?"
The quotes are endless, Turnbull may as well cross the floor and stop pi$$ing about.


----------



## Miss Hale

I saw a snippet of a speech Gillard made today (not in the parliament, at a breakfast) where she was talking about women being treated equally etc. and the dificulties of being the first female PM (  ).  She said she won't be happy until no one comments about women politicians because there are equal number of men and women in parliament. What???? What would that prove? Nothing. I won't be happy until we have good people in parliament _*regardless of their gender *_. I don't care if it's 50% women, 20% women or 80% women I just want to see the best people doing the job and no tokenism. 50% women will not prove anything! What is this obsession with 50% of everything?


----------



## white_goodman

Miss Hale said:


> I saw a snippet of a speech Gillard made today (not in the parliament, at a breakfast) where she was talking about women being treated equally etc. and the dificulties of being the first female PM (  ).  She said she won't be happy until no one comments about women politicians because there are equal number of men and women in parliament. What???? What would that prove? Nothing. I won't be happy until we have good people in parliament _*regardless of their gender *_. I don't care if it's 50% women, 20% women or 80% women I just want to see the best people doing the job and no tokenism. 50% women will not prove anything! What is this obsession with 50% of everything?




because in every field the percentages reflect the wider community...
nowhere in anything is it representative of the % of the wider community... its dumb of her to say such things


----------



## sptrawler

Miss Hale said:


> I saw a snippet of a speech Gillard made today (not in the parliament, at a breakfast) where she was talking about women being treated equally etc. and the dificulties of being the first female PM (  ).  She said she won't be happy until no one comments about women politicians because there are equal number of men and women in parliament. What???? What would that prove? Nothing. I won't be happy until we have good people in parliament _*regardless of their gender *_. I don't care if it's 50% women, 20% women or 80% women I just want to see the best people doing the job and no tokenism. 50% women will not prove anything! What is this obsession with 50% of everything?




O.K lets go along with Julia's train of thought, maybe someone, with better computer skills than me. 
Can find where they cut Julie Bishop a bit of slack when she was promoted. I think they turned feral on her, from memory.
What a bunch of dickheads.


----------



## dutchie

Another poor decision by Gillard not to sack Slipper - she has no clue.


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> I saw a snippet of a speech Gillard made today (not in the parliament, at a breakfast) where she was talking about women being treated equally etc. and the dificulties of being the first female PM (  ).  She said she won't be happy until no one comments about women politicians because there are equal number of men and women in parliament. What???? What would that prove? Nothing. I won't be happy until we have good people in parliament _*regardless of their gender *_. I don't care if it's 50% women, 20% women or 80% women I just want to see the best people doing the job and no tokenism. 50% women will not prove anything! What is this obsession with 50% of everything?



+100.  What I fear - and it's entirely possible in the current climate - is the introduction of a quota system.
50% female regardless of their capability to do the job.  
Hard to believe the parliament could become even worse than at present, but that would certainly be a negative move imo.

A caller to ABC radio this evening said that parliament today has moved from being in the gutter to actually descending down the sewer.  Pretty much sums it up imo.


----------



## MrBurns

I think it won't be long before this Govt falls

Parliament is unworkable and remaining support for these desperate crooks is fading fast


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> I think it won't be long before this Govt falls
> 
> Parliament is unworkable and remaining support for these desperate crooks is fading fast




Just when you think this government has scraped the bottom of the barrel they find another lower level!


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> Just when you think this government has scraped the bottom of the barrel they find another lower level!




Well if you are from a union background and have been sold down the toilet by people that later become Labor politicians.
You know what to expect.

Karma is an interesting concept.LOL


----------



## sptrawler

Well this sounds like a winner, the government could sell this as easily as the carbon tax.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/carbon-economy/call-for-carbon-duty-on-imports-20121009-27asi.html

Now that would make all the plebs sit up, when all the crappy junk they buy costs heaps more.
But wait, didn't this government hand out money and tell people to buy this junk?
Don't run this scenario past Wayne, it would give him a migraine.LOL


----------



## sptrawler

Well now is the time we need 'Super Wayne' to put the undies on over his pants and show he is the worlds greatest treasurer.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/imf-warns-on-global-recession-20121009-27b8k.html

Pink batts 2, the sequel. Anyone want a free $1000 cheque in the mail, no strings attached.LOL


----------



## drsmith

Meanwhile, on another front,



> THE disgraced former boyfriend of the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, took a leading role in the purchase of a unit in the name of a union crony with stolen union funds, documents reveal.
> 
> The papers also confirm that Ms Gillard closely managed legal work on the 1993 transaction - without advising her senior partners at law firm Slater & Gordon of the involvement of then boyfriend Bruce Wilson.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/pms-...it-in-name-of-union-crony-20121009-27bcp.html


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Meanwhile, on another front,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/pms-...it-in-name-of-union-crony-20121009-27bcp.html




This is still a very smelly episode for the PM.

(or just young and naive)

Q:  at what age do you become old and savvy??
A:  only after you have been caught out.


----------



## Logique

The Slipper imbroglio. I guess a lot of us thought "be careful what you wish for". The following article was in the Fairfax press. So the writer is currently cleaning out his desk (only kidding).



> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/we-expected-more-of-gillard-20121009-27bd6.html
> 
> The government had spent a month vilifying Tony Abbott for having "a problem with women". But when one of the bulwarks of the government was exposed as having a problem with women, it was suddenly acceptable.


----------



## moXJO

News limited defending Gillard, Penbo must be pi$$ed he got radio snubbed. Smh attacking her, Huh?


----------



## dutchie

http://www.debtclock.com.au/


----------



## Calliope

The Handbag Hit Squad apparently found Slipper worthy of their defence in spite of his lewd misogynism.


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> The Handbag Hit Squad apparently found Slipper worthy of their defence in spite of his lewd misogynism.
> 
> View attachment 49280






You could not write a Hollywood script like this.


----------



## pilots

ALP love are very happy with Slipper, you see we are not talking about the boats that are coming every day.


----------



## moXJO

Warning. Many people are circulating a tweet allegedly from Julia Gillard’s Twitter account: 


The grubby & hypocritical attacks by the Liberal Party on Speaker Peter Slipper MP, a man of distinction, has forced his resignation. TeamJG


This account is fake. Gillard did not send this tweet.


----------



## basilio

I thought yesterday was an excellent piece of  political work by Julia Gilliard and the Independents over the Peter Slipper affair.

After the Peter Slipper texts came out it would have been impossible to continue having him as Speaker.  However it was also unacceptable to have him sacked without due process and certainly not at the hands of Tony Abbotts  "dying of shame " comments.

So the clever trick was having the Independents Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott  tell Peter Slipper that unless he agreed to resign they would vote him out. This at least gave Peter a more dignified exit and avoided the situation of Parliament summarily sacking the speaker without due process.

Tony Abbott then walked into the trap of continuing his personal abuse of the PM and giving her the opportunity to dismember him piece by piece in what will be remembered as a classic turning the tables.

Clever, ruthless work in getting the best out of an appalling situation...

_______________________________________________________________________________

The Age story today suggest this  strategy.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...lards-support-for-slipper-20121010-27c5u.html


----------



## moXJO

basilio said:


> I thought yesterday was an excellent piece of  political work by Julia Gilliard and the Independents over the Peter Slipper affair.
> 
> After the Peter Slipper texts came out it would have been impossible to continue having him as Speaker.  However it was also unacceptable to have him sacked without due process and certainly not at the hands of Tony Abbotts  "dying of shame " comments.
> 
> So the clever trick was having the Independents Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott  tell Peter Slipper that unless he agreed to resign they would vote him out. This at least gave Peter a more dignified exit and avoided the situation of Parliament summarily sacking the speaker without due process.
> 
> Tony Abbott then walked into the trap of continuing his personal abuse of the PM and giving her the opportunity to dismember him piece by piece in what will be remembered as a classic turning the tables.
> 
> Clever, ruthless work in getting the best out of an appalling situation...
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> The Age story today suggest this  strategy.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...lards-support-for-slipper-20121010-27c5u.html




Or it looks like once again labor sticks its neck on the block to survive. After Roxon gave special treatment to Slipper during the court case, now we have the government in another grubby deal to survive. Lets remember that slipper became speaker via labor appointing him to the job (despite the rumors about him) in a bid to shore up numbers. Dodgy deals seem to be labors specialty


----------



## Calliope

Still no criticism of Slipper by the usually judgmental basilio.


----------



## basilio

Further thoughts after  my previous comment.

Ok lets accept that after the Peter Slipper texts came out his position as Speaker of the House should be reviewed. In the current social climate it was just too tacky (even if he was doing a fair job as Speaker)

A bi-partisan approach would have seen all parties have a quiet talk to the Speaker and offer him the opportunity to resign with some dignity. In that context we wouldn't have seen the Tony Abbott assault, Julia Gilliards  ferocious counter attack and the public trashing of the Parliament. Instead  the public would have viewed a constructive approach to keeping respect for the  centerpiece of our parliamentary democratic system. 

Would have been a better look wouldn't it ?

And on a broader note how many Parliamentarians on either side of politics could afford to have private emails, texts and comments publicly vetted for "being nice" ? How many of us could face similar scrutiny ?  Would we expect to be summarily dismissed from our positions because some nasty piece of work chose to publicise  the less attractive comments we  made at some time in some place ?


----------



## drsmith

basilio said:


> So the clever trick was having the Independents Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott  tell Peter Slipper that unless he agreed to resign they would vote him out. This at least gave Peter a more dignified exit and avoided the situation of Parliament summarily sacking the speaker without due process.
> 
> Tony Abbott then walked into the trap of continuing his personal abuse of the PM and giving her the opportunity to dismember him piece by piece in what will be remembered as a classic turning the tables.
> 
> Clever, ruthless work in getting the best out of an appalling situation...



Tony Windsor's and Rob Oakshott's intervention gave Peter Slipper a more dignified exit, but, did he deserve it and what specific due process did it follow ?

The government made the situation appaling for itself by continuting to support him as speaker. Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott obviously didn't want to see the government lose such a vote on the floor. Had the government used its brains, they would have encouraged Peter Slipper to resign from the speakership before parliament sat. His offending text messages were reported by the media over the weekend, so the government had plenty of time to act before yesterday.

Tony Abbott criticised the government and Julia Gillard for appointing Peter Slipper as speaker and for continuing to support him. He fought hard, but did not resort to personal abuse. Julia Gillard on the other hand referred to him as "that man". Just imagine for a moment the outcry if Tony Abbott referred to Julia Gillard as "that woman". 

Julia Gillard also sought to use her late Father's recent passing for political gain. She was also the one who originally yelled across the the chamber to the opposition, "bring it on". She can hardly complain that the kitchen is too hot from getting more than she bargained for.


----------



## dutchie

Any person that votes for Labor approves of misogyny (just like the 70 yesterday).


----------



## basilio

> Tony Windsor's and Rob Oakshott's intervention gave Peter Slipper a more dignified exit, but, did he deserve it and what specific due process did it follow ?
> 
> The government made the situation appaling for itself by continuting to support him as speaker. Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott obviously didn't want to see the government lose such a vote on the floor. Had the government used its brains, they would have encouraged Peter Slipper to resign from the speakership before parliament sat. His offending text messages were reported by the media over the weekend, so the government had plenty of time to act before yesterday.




I think the political process is so bitter at the moment that due process is simply ignored in favour of abuse.

Clearly what Peter Slipper said was  gross/tacky etc. As I said previously I doubt that many members on either side could pass that particular test of propriety over their lives. 

I think Peter Slipper had to go for a range of reasons. His Parliamentary career  prior to being speaker had caused many problems to the Liberals. I think his use of perks was very questionable. Labour thought they were clever in giving him the Speakers role to shore up their support and so they have to take responsibility for accepting his failings as well.

In my view this parliament has been dominated by Tony Abbotts determination to bring down the government and become PM. He is not trying to offer constructive alternatives. He is not interested in  improving political outcomes. He just wants to be PM  and to get there it seems  he will say or do whatever is required - regardless of other consequences. Hence his determination to attack the Government at all times rather than come to a bipartisan constructive approach to the damage peter Slipper was doing to the role of Speaker.


----------



## drsmith

Peter Slipper should have never been elevated to Speaker in the first place, but that's what Labor did. Labor did it not for the good of parliament as a whole, but to shore up their own prospects of staying in office.

No amount of criticism of Tony Abbott or the Coalition can change that.



basilio said:


> I think the political process is so bitter at the moment that due process is simply ignored in favour of abuse.



Again, what specifically was personally abusive to Julia Gillard in Tony Abbott's statement in parliament yesterday ?


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> Again, what specifically was personally abusive to Julia Gillard in Tony Abbott's statement in parliament yesterday ?




 Nothing. The real Julia was itching to go for his jugular. She attacked him like a snarling hyena. She needed mo more excuse than the mention of the word "shame.'



> At 2.42 pm on Tuesday that someone rose to speak. The mask fell away. Julia Gillard came out snarling. The parliament had before it a great issue, the dignity of the house itself, which had been traduced by the scandal that had attached itself to Slipper.
> Instead of directly addressing the issue of a discredited speakership which had become engulfed in an expensive and degrading legal action that did no credit to anyone involved, least of all the Attorney-General, the Prime Minister wasted no timing in using misdirection and personal abuse.
> She even invoked the name of dead father: "My father did not die of shame!" she thundered across the dispatch box.
> No one in the parliament ever said he did. Tony Abbott had said exactly the opposite when he spoke of her father.





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...gender-card-20121010-27cnq.html#ixzz28rO2r4vm


----------



## moXJO

Well if the nation wasn't divided before it sure as hell is now


----------



## Julia

basilio said:


> I thought yesterday was an excellent piece of  political work by Julia Gilliard and the Independents over the Peter Slipper affair.
> 
> After the Peter Slipper texts came out it would have been impossible to continue having him as Speaker.  However it was also unacceptable to have him sacked without due process and certainly not at the hands of Tony Abbotts  "dying of shame " comments.
> 
> So the clever trick was having the Independents Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott  tell Peter Slipper that unless he agreed to resign they would vote him out. This at least gave Peter a more dignified exit and avoided the situation of Parliament summarily sacking the speaker without due process.
> 
> Tony Abbott then walked into the trap of continuing his personal abuse of the PM and giving her the opportunity to dismember him piece by piece in what will be remembered as a classic turning the tables.
> 
> Clever, ruthless work in getting the best out of an appalling situation...



Oh dear, basilio.  We have a quite hideous situation and you still attempt to cast the government in a positive light.  Unbelievable.




basilio said:


> And on a broader note how many Parliamentarians on either side of politics could afford to have private emails, texts and comments publicly vetted for "being nice" ?



"being nice"?  Where is your sense of propriety?   There is a huge difference between someone 'not being nice' and suggesting female genitalia  resemble "a jar of salty c....s", after the preceding description being of a resemblance to mussels!!!



> How many of us could face similar scrutiny ?  Would we expect to be summarily dismissed from our positions because some nasty piece of work chose to publicise  the less attractive comments we  made at some time in some place ?



Less attractive comments?   Up to now, despite being bored with your evangelistic pursuits regarding climate change, I've regarded you as a person of reasonable principle, even if I don't agree with you.
But you have now virtually endorsed the vulgar abuse of women by your above defence and your failure to condemn the government for supporting the retention of Slipper, despite their continued recent accusations toward others of misogynistic and sexist behaviour.

Perhaps you could assist the forum by coming up with what I've asked for in another thread, i.e. some actual examples of Tony Abbott personally engaging in sexist remarks or behaviour.  I look forward to this.



drsmith said:


> Tony Windsor's and Rob Oakshott's intervention gave Peter Slipper a more dignified exit, but, did he deserve it and what specific due process did it follow ?
> 
> The government made the situation appaling for itself by continuting to support him as speaker. Tony Windsor and Rob Oakshott obviously didn't want to see the government lose such a vote on the floor. Had the government used its brains, they would have encouraged Peter Slipper to resign from the speakership before parliament sat. His offending text messages were reported by the media over the weekend, so the government had plenty of time to act before yesterday.



Exactly.  The government clearly hoped they could sweep the whole disgusting business under the carpet.
Their support for him has set back the principles of feminism significantly and they are foolish indeed if they do not think many of the country's female voters will not take this into account when they vote.



> Tony Abbott criticised the government and Julia Gillard for appointing Peter Slipper as speaker and for continuing to support him. He fought hard, but did not resort to personal abuse. Julia Gillard on the other hand referred to him as "that man". Just imagine for a moment the outcry if Tony Abbott referred to Julia Gillard as "that woman".
> 
> Julia Gillard also sought to use her late Father's recent passing for political gain. She was also the one who originally yelled across the the chamber to the opposition, "bring it on". She can hardly complain that the kitchen is too hot from getting more than she bargained for.



It seems that any criticism by anyone now, toward Julia Gillard can be labelled "sexist" or "misogynistic".
How utterly ridiculous.


----------



## Logique

A leader should unite, not divide. Smear is no substitute for policy.

Another Fairfax journo probably cleaning out his desk. 


> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...gender-card-20121010-27cnq.html#ixzz28rr0nV9q
> Gillard reveals true nature in playing gender card
> 
> ..the mask has finally dropped away to reveal the driver of the politics of hate in Australia.
> The mask fell at exactly 2.42pm in the House of Representatives..


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> A leader should unite, not divide. Smear is no substitute for policy.
> 
> Another Fairfax journo probably cleaning out his desk.




Brilliant Logique, absolutely priceless, a juorno calling it as it is. This government won't be remembered or missed.


The mask fell at exactly 2.42pm in the House of Representatives. Looking on were the member for Gutter, Anthony Albanese, the member for Sewer, Wayne Swan, the Minister for Innuendo, Tanya Plibersek, and the Compromise-General, Nicola Roxon, and the independents who will do anything to avoid facing their electorates, Mr Insufferable, Robert Oakeshott, and his fellow regional zombie, Mr Unspeakable, Tony Windsor

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...gender-card-20121010-27cnq.html#ixzz28yf0u2QJ


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> A leader should unite, not divide. Smear is no substitute for policy.
> 
> Another Fairfax journo probably cleaning out his desk.




Everyone is talking about the dying of shame comments but Abbott took some serious hits over his image of standing in front of the rallies with the nasty sexiest placards behind him which I thought were more damaging.

Gillards speech received world wide coverage unlike Abbott's


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Everyone is talking about the dying of shame comments but Abbott took some serious hits over his image of standing in front of the rallies with the *nasty sexiest placards* behind him which I thought were more damaging.
> 
> Gillards speech received world wide coverage unlike Abbott's




There is nothing sexy about Gillard being portrayed as a witch, nasty or otherwise.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Gillards speech received world wide coverage unlike Abbott's



They don't cast a vote here.


----------



## MrBurns

IFocus said:


> .
> Gillards speech received world wide coverage unlike Abbott's




That was for curiosity not substance.
Like when an idiot goes berserk on CCTV, in fact very much like that.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Everyone is talking about the dying of shame comments but Abbott took some serious hits over his image of standing in front of the rallies with the nasty sexiest placards behind him which I thought were more damaging.
> 
> Gillards speech received world wide coverage unlike Abbott's




Yes it cetainly did, by the lunatic fringe. 
Mum and dad voters in Aus don't go much for, grandstanding by bad mouthing, her union background is coming to the fore. 
As for the rest of them, they really are a piece of work, they wouldn't be out of place in a 'Mad Max' movie.
Actually if you put the Labor party in a bunch of bush buggies, they would make a great cast.LOL,LOL

This isn't a government, it is a bunch of goons trying to run a country as if it was sub branch of a union.
Absolutely bloody disgracefull, they are a joke living a joke at our expense. It is time someone called' time' on this fiasco.
Bloody Windsor, Oakeshott and Wilkie are compliant in this joke. Bring on the election.


----------



## Macquack

Abbott always has that smart ar_e smirk on his face. 

Watch him, his eyes tell a different story to his mouth.

If you trust him, you are fooled.


----------



## drsmith

Macquack said:


> If you trust him, you are fooled.



Kevin Rudd, Andrew Wilkie and the majority of the electorate would say the same about Julia Gillard.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> Abbott always has that smart ar_e smirk on his face.
> 
> Watch him, his eyes tell a different story to his mouth.
> 
> If you trust him, you are fooled.




Well at least he shows his dislike for the goon show. Maybe you should focus on Swan if you want to see a smirk from a gormless shell.LOL
Or like Gillard said, get a mirror.LOL


----------



## Macquack

sptrawler said:


> Well at least he shows his dislike for the goon show. Maybe you should focus on Swan if you want to see a smirk from a gormless shell.LOL
> Or like Gillard said, get a mirror.LOL




You know what pisses me off on ASF, it is when people laugh at their own "attempted" jokes.

Look in the mirror before you open your mouth.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> You know what pisses me off on ASF, it is when people laugh at their own "attempted" jokes.
> 
> Look in the mirror before you open your mouth.




I have done Macquack and guess what, there is too many voters out there to drop bags of bolts on.LOL


----------



## Macquack

sptrawler said:


> I have done Macquack and guess what, there is too many voters out there to drop bags of bolts on.*LOL*




You have done it again

By your own admission, this is not a laughing matter.

Having a dope replaced by a bigger dope.


----------



## moXJO

Macquack said:


> You have done it again
> 
> By your own admission, this is not a laughing matter.
> 
> Having a dope replaced by a bigger dope.




Youre in a punchy mood tonight


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> A leader should unite, not divide. Smear is no substitute for policy.
> 
> Another Fairfax journo probably cleaning out his desk.



It would be a pity if that were to happen.  The only chance Fairfax has of saving itself from oblivion is to offer readers some genuine competition with News Ltd papers in the form of commentary that does not come undiluted from the Left.



IFocus said:


> Everyone is talking about the dying of shame comments but Abbott took some serious hits over his image of standing in front of the rallies with the nasty sexiest placards behind him which I thought were more damaging.



Never mind that Mr Abbott has said he had no knowledge of what was going on behind him (does he now have eyes in the back of his head?) and has thoroughly denounced the message on the placards?
How about a bit of genuine objectivity, IF, in the form of acknowledging Mr Abbott's counter to this now very tired accusation?
Probably too much to ask, I guess.




> Gillards speech received world wide coverage unlike Abbott's



No matter that it was quoted devoid of any background, i.e. Slipper's revolting remarks and the government's support of him despite this.  Certainly would have detracted from the headlines to offer Gillard's astonishing level of hypocrisy, wouldn't it!


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> Gillards speech received world wide coverage unlike Abbott's




I followed it on Twitter for a while and it was clear that there was some sort of concerted effort to propagate Gillard's section of the speech. Links to the speech were accompanied by comments such as "PM give misogynist his comeuppance" or "Misogynist sinks down in chair as he gets a deserved roasting from PM". I believe it was a concerted effort as these same comments were being retweeted over and over and there were perhaps less than 1% of comments negative to Gillard. I doubt very much if that ratio was achieved without some sort of coordination, perhaps by the same groups that are using social media to attack Jones.

Those abroad, unfamiliar with Australian politics, would just accept the comments as being representative of what happened. In that context, the speech would appear to be powerful oratory.

Those of us who are familiar with the situation know it was just a disgraceful childish dummyspit that brought shame on the office of PM. Instead of showing Abbott up to be a misogynist, she just showed herself to be a misandrist, at least in relation to male political opponents.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> You have done it again
> 
> By your own admission, this is not a laughing matter.
> 
> Having a dope replaced by a bigger dope.




Actually Maquack, what I was alluding to was the government is full of high ranking trade union people. Who performed very well, when there was a common enemy.
Put them in charge of the economy, where there isn't an enemy, just a common goal for all and they are thrashing around trying to find an enemy.
Everyone is fair game, the opposition, the greens(who we were in bed with), your all sexist, you miners can pay more, how about that carbon tax thing, the greeny people were talking about. Come on we must be able to pay for this crap. We only have to hang in for another 12 months, throw up some distractions.
Jeez talk about no direction. I won't say LOL, because it upsets you, but it does make me laugh.

Why doesn't Labor call an election?

Everyone reaches their level of incompetence, this government reached it at the last election. Now they have moved on to compounding the level of incompetence, by continueing in office.
They are to blame and people will look back on this as a period of government where the politicians put themselves before the people.IMO


----------



## Macquack

Fair enough sptrawler, can't argue with that.

The question as to why Labor does not call an election is obvious, they are in power.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> Fair enough sptrawler, can't argue with that.
> 
> The question as to why Labor does not call an election is obvious, they are in power.




But jeez Maquack, it has all become disfunctional. At some stage the government if it believes it has the support of the people for its policy. It would say enough is enough, lets have a vote on it.
The only benefit in dragging out the election, is for the ones that the people don't want.
If as Gillard says everyone hates Abbott, why not call an election and cement her position in government?


----------



## Macquack

sptrawler said:


> If as Gillard says everyone hates Abbott, why not call an election and cement her position in government?




Even though Abbott is disliked more than Gillard does not mean the Labor Party will win, it wont.

This reminds me of the often put argument that the GST was put to the electorate, so therefore had majority support. I don't buy this "mandate" argument. The Liberal party was the best alternative at that point, but that did not mean that it had "carte blanche"  support for all its policies. I reckon if the GST had been put to a referendum, it would have failed.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> Even though Abbott is disliked more than Gillard does not mean the Labor Party will win, it wont.
> 
> This reminds me of the often put argument that the GST was put to the electorate, so therefore had majority support. I don't buy this "mandate" argument. The Liberal party was the best alternative at that point, but that did not mean that it had "carte blanche"  support for all its policies. I reckon if the GST had been put to a referendum, it would have failed.




I agree with you, however the gst and the resultant reduction in personal income tax, was a positive. It was too easy for the rich to pay no tax by running everything through the company. With the gst they had to pay some tax.
I feel it would have been better if they had made it more broad based. That would have been better than the carbon tax, which is too much of an impost on manufacturing at this point in time.


----------



## Julia

Macquack said:


> Even though Abbott is disliked more than Gillard does not mean the Labor Party will win, it wont.
> 
> This reminds me of the often put argument that the GST was put to the electorate, so therefore had majority support. I don't buy this "mandate" argument. The Liberal party was the best alternative at that point, but that did not mean that it had "carte blanche"  support for all its policies. I reckon if the GST had been put to a referendum, it would have failed.



John Howard absolutely went to that election on a platform of introducing the GST.
If you objected to it, obviously you wouldn't vote Liberal.
Hardly appropriate to suggest people didn't know it was going to happen.


----------



## sptrawler

Rob Oakeshott, looked like he didn't know wether to cry or throw up on lateline tonight.


----------



## dutchie

The women of Australia would rightly be very disappointed in Julia Gillard, the Labor party and especially the other female members of that party.

Here was an opportunity to further the feminist cause and to make a statement against a known misogynist by voting him out of a high position in the parliament.

The Labor party as a whole, including all those female members, not only did not kick him out but they actually supported him. 

They supported a misogynist!

What were they thinking?  Why did they not vote to kick this person out?

It would now be untenable (or at least very difficult) for female voters to vote for Julia Gillard, especially if they were feminists.

I feel sorry for your disappointment.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Rob Oakeshott, looked like he didn't know wether to cry or throw up on lateline tonight.




Yes, agree.  I did think his comments were balanced and reasonable, though.  Especially in terms of allowing Slipper to prepare his family.


----------



## dutchie

I am waiting for Julia's apology.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/of...aff-peta-credlin/story-e6frf7jo-1226493508206


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> I am waiting for Julia's apology.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/of...aff-peta-credlin/story-e6frf7jo-1226493508206




Fat chance, jeez she's a piece of work, apparently.


----------



## dutchie

dutchie said:


> This is still a very smelly episode for the PM.
> 
> (or just young and naive)
> 
> Q:  at what age do you become old and savvy??
> A:  only after you have been caught out.




Getting smellier.


----------



## wayneL

Well there ya go, our Tones is such a misogynist bastard that he has a female chief of staff. 

I can tell you that this whole "misogynist" nonsense is viewed with bemusement over on this side of the ditch....

...in fact the whole Oz political landscape has Kiwis wondering WTF happened to turn things into such a puerile bitchfest.


----------



## Calliope

wayneL said:


> ...in fact the whole Oz political landscape has Kiwis wondering WTF happened to turn things into such a puerile bitchfest.




That's easy. Gillard and the Handbag Hit Squad....and Abbott's clumsiness with language.


----------



## DB008

Did anybody catch Julie Bishop on the 7:30 Report tonight? She did pretty good. Julie smashed Leigh for 6 when asked about  'Tony's view on abortion'...when he was Health Minster, nothing changed....BAM!

Last remarks, when she said, 'The pleasure was all mine...............'

If looks could kill = Leigh Sales, dead man walking....wow. 

l'll post it once ABC upload it.


----------



## wayneL

Calliope said:


> That's easy. Gillard and the Handbag Hit Squad....and Abbott's clumsiness with language.




Yes.

But of course NZ has its own vicious one issue hypocrites too: Good Lord any honest appraisal of them would have basilio et al screaming 'misogynist' in an instant... but nobody takes any notice of them here, apart from some mild entertainment value.


----------



## DB008

7:30 Report with Julie Bishop...
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3609057.htm


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> I am waiting for Julia's apology.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/of...aff-peta-credlin/story-e6frf7jo-1226493508206



It sure has Labor in a spin.

The comment itself must have been a doozie.


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> I am waiting for Julia's apology.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/of...aff-peta-credlin/story-e6frf7jo-1226493508206



Um, I don't see why Ms Gillard should be held responsible for the comment of some comedian (?), especially when she wasn't even in attendance at the time.  To suggest that is to lower the Liberal party and its supporters to the nonsense peddled by Labor.
Craig Emerson walked out when the comment was made.  Our Swannie, however, waited until today to make any condemnation.  I understand Ms Gillard also contacted the union to express her disgust.



sptrawler said:


> Fat chance, jeez she's a piece of work, apparently.



Who is?  Gillard or Peta Credlin?



DB008 said:


> Did anybody catch Julie Bishop on the 7:30 Report tonight? She did pretty good. Julie smashed Leigh for 6 when asked about  'Tony's view on abortion'...when he was Health Minster, nothing changed....BAM!
> 
> Last remarks, when she said, 'The pleasure was all mine...............'



Yes, that was priceless when she accompanied it by the Julie Bishop stare.  A good interview.  Even allowed me to consider if she would be an acceptable replacement for Mr Abbott.  She doesn't lose her temper, is articulate and calculated in her remarks.  Her very elegance would make a significant contrast with the Prime Minister, also.



wayneL said:


> Yes.
> 
> But of course NZ has its own vicious one issue hypocrites too: Good Lord any honest appraisal of them would have basilio et al screaming 'misogynist' in an instant... but nobody takes any notice of them here, apart from some mild entertainment value.



Which demonstrates yet again that New Zealanders don't get easily caught up in hysteria.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> It sure has Labor in a spin.
> 
> The comment itself must have been a doozie.




Yes it must be hard to reconcile, paying out on Abbott when he wasn't even at the venue.

When they are all present at this fiasco, makes a mockery of Gillard on the soap box dishing out $hit.

This isn't a government, it's a rabble squandering public money.IMO


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Her very elegance would make a significant contrast with the Prime Minister, also.
> .




Watch it Julia you'll get caught up in the sexism thing, but aint it the truth.


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> Craig Emerson walked out when the comment was made.




Actually from what I read in the papers, Craig Emerson said he left shorty after the comment was made.

_Trade Minister Craig Emerson said he left the dinner "shortly thereafter". He called the remarks  "sexist and deeply offensive" but added that "no one knew that this was coming."_

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-boss-over-offensive-joke-20121011-27erg.html

Whether he left because of the joke or just had other things to do, we never will know. I would also be interested in how long was "shortly thereafter"

But I agree with you the whole thing has now become a farce. By saying that opposition members should have left certain venues when disparaging comments were made, a standard is now being set where politicians will be expected to scurry from meetings, concerts, public events etc. whenever something is uttered that could cause someone else to take offence.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Watch it Julia you'll get caught up in the sexism thing, but aint it the truth.



Oh goodness.  So I will.



bellenuit said:


> Actually from what I read in the papers, Craig Emerson said he left shorty after the comment was made.
> 
> _Trade Minister Craig Emerson said he left the dinner "shortly thereafter". He called the remarks  "sexist and deeply offensive" but added that "no one knew that this was coming."_
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-boss-over-offensive-joke-20121011-27erg.html
> 
> Whether he left because of the joke or just had other things to do, we never will know. I would also be interested in how long was "shortly thereafter"



There was a comment from him on the whole crappy affair on "PM" this evening and he offered the absolutely clear impression that he left because of the remark.  I particularly noticed because I thought at the time "ah, Emerson, being oh so careful to look after your image, huh".
I'd have thought, given the ridiculous and farcical fuss they have made over the last few weeks, and especially given their massive hypocrisy over Slipper, they would all be rushing to dissociate themselves with any off colour remarks, and so it seems to have been.
Swannie will claim the excuse that he was to speak himself soon after so could hardly leave in indignation with Dr Emerson.

How tedious it is all becoming.  If only they would, on both sides, just get on with attempting to run the ****** country!


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> .
> 
> How tedious it is all becoming.  If only they would, on both sides, just get on with attempting to run the ****** country!




That is the last thing they want to do, so much easier to bad mouth and slag off. Than to answer for the state of the economy, at the height of a boom.
It's a bloody disgrace.


----------



## drsmith

I think Richo's given up on Julia Gillard.



> The PM seems to believe that the best way to protect herself from sunburn is to cover herself in excrement. It may stop the burn, but the smell is permeating every corner of our land. There can be no excuse for the long list of serious errors of judgment. When the crunch comes, she is just not good enough for the office she holds.
> 
> Footnote: If Tuesday was the worst day in the life of this government, worse is to come. Soon, the Treasurer will introduce a mini-budget of sorts. You don't need to be an economist to know that the cost of refugees has blown out by billions, the mining tax will raise next to nothing, company tax receipts are way down and GST revenue is tanking.
> 
> This mini-budget will be a new low that may make leadership speculation superfluous. Who cares who leads a government that is going down?




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...hatever-it-takes/story-fnfenwor-1226493940655


----------



## wayneL

"Nero fiddles while Rome burns" keeps coming to mind.

This is the worst era in Oz politics I can ever remember. The Labor party predilection with purported 'misogyny'  has sidetracked the whole blinkin' nation on trivia.

Such faux indignation... come on folks, pollies have thick skins. When this is all over, Australia will be ashamed of this childishness (carefully avoiding the now poisoned 'die of shame' phrase  ).

And FWIW, Dullard did not slap down Abbott at all, rather, the straw man they created.

pffffft


----------



## Aussiejeff

wayneL said:


> "Nero fiddles while Rome burns" keeps coming to mind.
> 
> This is the worst era in Oz politics I can ever remember. The Labor party predilection with purported 'misogyny'  has sidetracked the whole blinkin' nation on trivia.
> 
> Such faux indignation... come on folks, pollies have thick skins. When this is all over, Australia will be ashamed of this childishness (*carefully avoiding the now poisoned 'die of shame' phrase*  ).
> 
> And FWIW, Dullard did not slap down Abbott at all, rather, the straw man they created.
> 
> pffffft




Not poisoned - simply hijacked and now Sole Copyright of Ms Dullard. To be used at will by her, and her alone. Any other user shall be crucified ad-nauseum.


----------



## DB008

Julia said:


> Even allowed me to consider if she would be an acceptable replacement for Mr Abbott. She doesn't lose her temper, is articulate and calculated in her remarks. Her very elegance would make a significant contrast with the Prime Minister, also.




Yes, I agree although I don't know much of her views, but she seems a suitable replacement.


----------



## Calliope

DB008 said:


> Yes, I agree although I don't know much of her views, but she seems a suitable replacement.




What views are they?


----------



## MrBurns

wayneL said:


> "Nero fiddles while Rome burns" keeps coming to mind.
> 
> This is the worst era in Oz politics I can ever remember. The Labor party predilection with purported 'misogyny'  has sidetracked the whole blinkin' nation on trivia.




How tragic is it when a PM will do that, I seiously hope the next poll shows her flushed down the sewer where she belongs.


----------



## DB008

Calliope said:


> What views are they?




Only the one she spoke about last night (abortion).


----------



## Calliope

DB008 said:


> Only the one she spoke about last night (abortion).




I am impressed with the way Julie Bishop rejects Gillard's claims to be a victim of male chauvinism. She gives Gillard some good advice.



> The day will come when you can no longer call the gender card or the victim card, and by pretending to be a victim the prime minister has demeaned every woman in this parliament…
> 
> We didn’t come here to be told that we could not do the job and needed to be treated differently.
> 
> We came here on this side of the parliament to say we were the best person for the job to represent the people, and the ideas we have are the best ideas to take us into government.
> 
> We don’t wish to be treated as somehow less able or a victim of somebody’s spiteful words…
> 
> Could you imagine (German chancellor) Angela Merkel making a speech like that, or Maggie Thatcher making a speech like that?
> 
> Of course not. The fact of the matter is if you take leadership you must exercise leadership and if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.


----------



## pilots

MrBurns said:


> How tragic is it when a PM will do that, I seiously hope the next poll shows her flushed down the sewer where she belongs.




Mr Burns, how rude of you, you MUST NOT use that she word, SHAME on you,


----------



## Julia

> The day will come when you can no longer call the gender card or the victim card, and by pretending to be a victim the prime minister has demeaned every woman in this parliament…
> 
> We didn’t come here to be told that we could not do the job and needed to be treated differently.
> 
> We came here on this side of the parliament to say we were the best person for the job to represent the people, and the ideas we have are the best ideas to take us into government.
> 
> We don’t wish to be treated as somehow less able or a victim of somebody’s spiteful words…
> 
> Could you imagine (German chancellor) Angela Merkel making a speech like that, or Maggie Thatcher making a speech like that?
> 
> Of course not. The fact of the matter is if you take leadership you must exercise leadership and if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.




Yes, the above is the sort of stuff we should be hearing from a woman in parliament.  Really shows up Gillard for what she is.


----------



## McLovin

I actually think both sides of politics don't even remember that they are supposed to be running a country. This whole saga is mind-numblingly boring. To be honest, I could care less what someone thinks of someone else. Why are we becoming so Americanised in turning politics into a game of nitpicking. Bring out a policy, I don't care what side does it and debate something of actual importance rather than what someone did or didn't say. There's far bigger issues facing this country than whether the estrogen/testosterone ratio in the Parliament is balanced.


----------



## dutchie

How can Anna Burke perform her duties as speaker with any fairness or impartiality ?



New Speaker Anna Burke backs Julia Gillard in gender war

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rd-in-gender-war/story-fn59niix-1226494243940


----------



## noco

dutchie said:


> How can Anna Burke perform her duties as speaker with any fairness or impartiality ?
> 
> 
> 
> New Speaker Anna Burke backs Julia Gillard in gender war
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rd-in-gender-war/story-fn59niix-1226494243940




It is an absolute farce the way politicians are acting and it is not in the best interest of our great country.

Personally, I am sick to death of Gillard and her Green/Labor socialist left wing government. If the Governor General had any balls, she would sack the lot and call a double dissolution of both houses. But of course we all know why she can't or won't!!!!!!!!

How much more damage can they do if they stay in office for another 12 months.


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> I actually think both sides of politics don't even remember that they are supposed to be running a country. This whole saga is mind-numblingly boring. To be honest, I could care less what someone thinks of someone else. Why are we becoming so Americanised in turning politics into a game of nitpicking. Bring out a policy, I don't care what side does it and debate something of actual importance rather than what someone did or didn't say. There's far bigger issues facing this country than whether the estrogen/testosterone ratio in the Parliament is balanced.



+1   I completely agree.

The people in the media, the public (via letters to the editor, blogs and threads like this) seem to lap up every minute detail however, which I guess is why the wheel keeps spinning.

When you see personality debates confused with actual intellectual debate you know something needs to happen.

unfortunately, history shows and it has become more and more obvious since mass-media took over that rhetoric wins elections more than actual ideas.


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> How can Anna Burke perform her duties as speaker with any fairness or impartiality ?
> New Speaker Anna Burke backs Julia Gillard in gender war
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rd-in-gender-war/story-fn59niix-1226494243940



That is really concerning.  I'm as against sexism - let alone misogyny - as anyone, but the farcical level Gillard went to her in her tirade this week was just embarrassing.   And I'm not a Tony Abbott fan.



Ves said:


> +1   I completely agree.
> 
> The people in the media, the public (via letters to the editor, blogs and threads like this) seem to lap up every minute detail however, which I guess is why the wheel keeps spinning.
> 
> When you see personality debates confused with actual intellectual debate you know something needs to happen.
> 
> unfortunately, history shows and it has become more and more obvious since mass-media took over that rhetoric wins elections more than actual ideas.



+1 to this and to McLovin's remarks.   
Your last comment, Ves, is a good point.  It seems that some politicians are now directing their entire approach toward what is going to play best across general and social media.  The power of social media alone to generate a reaction to a quasi hysterical level is becoming increasingly apparent.

The overseas newspaper praise for Gillard's recent invective, where they failed to report the wider context, is an example.   

The whole parliament seems to have descended into this paltry, tawdry exchange of viciousness.   It is up to the Prime Minister to get over herself and move the discourse to a discussion of what will best advantage Australia in an ever more depressing climate.


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> +1 to this and to McLovin's remarks.
> Your last comment, Ves, is a good point.  It seems that some politicians are now directing their entire approach toward what is going to play best across general and social media.  The power of social media alone to generate a reaction to a quasi hysterical level is becoming increasingly apparent.




I agree.

It's unfortunate because it means the real economic reforms of the '80s and '90s would be impossible today. There is no analysis anymore, just soundbites and one-liners. The media are just as much to blame. Outside of the ABC, when was the last time one of the networks did any sort of investigative journalism? They have gone from being the fourth estate to nothing more than a parasitic rumour machine that feeds off leaks and innuendo provided by the very people they are supposed to be keeping in check. There are no journalists left in television, just reporters.

Bam! That was a surprisingly well written tirade!


----------



## tinhat

noco said:


> If the Governor General had any balls, ...




I can confirm that the Governor General does not have balls. Neither does the Prime Minister, the Governor of NSW or the Lord Mayor of Sydney. No wonder Alan Jones is so upset.


----------



## sptrawler

McLovin said:


> I agree.
> 
> It's unfortunate because it means the real economic reforms of the '80s and '90s would be impossible today. There is no analysis anymore, just soundbites and one-liners. The media are just as much to blame. Outside of the ABC, when was the last time one of the networks did any sort of investigative journalism? They have gone from being the fourth estate to nothing more than a parasitic rumour machine that feeds off leaks and innuendo provided by the very people they are supposed to be keeping in check. There are no journalists left in television, just reporters.
> 
> Bam! That was a surprisingly well written tirade!




Wow McLovin, great post, just shows it is better to write the posts pre evening drinks.LOL
I have to agree with you, the evening news is more like a weekly magazine, full of gossip and glitz.
They would be lucky to have 10 minutes of news in a news hour, it's an absolute joke.


----------



## drsmith

The day the speaker participates in partisan political commentary is another day of shame for our parliament.

Likewise is the day the opposition leader calls the PM silly names across the floor and the PM dobs him in.


----------



## sptrawler

The next big step for this government, is how to introduce even more new taxes, to plug holes they have blown in the economy.
Seven years of financially inept people, trying to cope with running the country, when they couldn't even run a school canteen.
Worlds greatest treasurer, more like worlds greatest comedian.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Seven years of financially inept people, trying to cope with running the country, when they couldn't even run a school canteen.



I know it seems longer, but Labor's only been in for 5.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> I know it seems longer, but Labor's only been in for 5.




I was sure they couldn't have done this much damage in five, so I gave them an extra couple.
Funny isn't it, it feels as though they have been in for longer.
I guess it's like a tooth ache, a couple of days seem like a lifetime, it must be time to have it removed.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> I was sure they couldn't have done this much damage in five, so I gave them an extra couple.
> Funny isn't it, it feels as though they have been in for longer.
> I guess it's like a tooth ache, a couple of days seem like a lifetime, it must be time to have it removed.




Election night will be like the AFL grand final and Melbourne Cup day all at once, we should organise a get together.........


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I guess it's like a tooth ache, a couple of days seem like a lifetime, it must be time to have it removed.



Indeed.

Replacing Kevin Rudd with Julia Gillard was their root canal. It has clearly failed and the infection has rapidly spread.


----------



## Aussiejeff

drsmith said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Replacing Kevin Rudd with Julia Gillard was their root canal. It has clearly failed and the infection has rapidly spread.




They're rooted then?


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> The whole parliament seems to have descended into this paltry, tawdry exchange of viciousness.
> *It is up to the Prime Minister to get over herself and move the discourse to a discussion of what will best advantage Australia in an ever more depressing climate.*




Indeed it is. 
Fat chance of the PM actually doing so though.
Far from wanting to advantage Australia, Gillard and her poxy government have done one stupid thing after another to disadvantage our great country. 
When Gillard deposed Rudd I really thought she might bring some common sense and responsibility to the Labor Party by dismantling some of Rudd’s ridiculous policies and abandoning some of his grandiose plans. But the damn fool has done the opposite.
Whitlam and Rudd were the worst two PM’s this country has ever had......until Gillard took over. Bad as they were, Whitlam and Rudd didn’t even come close to matching Gillard for stupidity, arrogance, cowardice, dishonesty, nastiness, lack of moral fibre, and downright incompetence.
She has to go.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Replacing Kevin Rudd with Julia Gillard was their root canal. It has clearly failed and the infection has rapidly spread.




Doc, it is more than an infection, it is a cancer and spreading fast into the Labor Party heart.

The best cure is a double dissolution of "CHEMO THERAPY" and if that does not work, I suggest a cremation and a buriel just to make sure.


----------



## dutchie

bunyip said:


> Indeed it is.
> Fat chance of the PM actually doing so though.
> Far from wanting to advantage Australia, Gillard and her poxy government have done one stupid thing after another to disadvantage our great country.
> When Gillard deposed Rudd I really thought she might bring some common sense and responsibility to the Labor Party by dismantling some of Rudd’s ridiculous policies and abandoning some of his grandiose plans. But the damn fool has done the opposite.
> Whitlam and Rudd were the worst two PM’s this country has ever had......until Gillard took over. Bad as they were, Whitlam and Rudd didn’t even come close to matching Gillard for stupidity, arrogance, cowardice, dishonesty, nastiness, lack of moral fibre, and downright incompetence.
> She has to go.




+1 Excellent analysis Bunyip.

Unfortunately for all the rusted on Labor supporters, the Labor party does not realise this, so that they cannot do anything about it.


----------



## DB008

dutchie said:


> +1 Excellent analysis Bunyip.
> 
> Unfortunately for all the rusted on Labor supporters, the Labor party does not realise this, so that they cannot do anything about it.




But, But, But.....look at how many polices they have introduced since they came to power.......


----------



## pilots

DB008 said:


> But, But, But.....look at how many polices they have introduced since they came to power.......




But,but,but look what's  happened to our bank balance since they came to power, WHO'S going to fix that?????


----------



## DB008

pilots said:


> But,but,but look what's  happened to our bank balance since they came to power, WHO'S going to fix that?????




Oh, I'm agreeing with you pilots. This is the classic line that ALP supporters have been running with, well, the ones I have spoken to recently. 

There will be quite a mess to clean up. Will the Government debt ceiling of $300 Billion be hit?


----------



## Calliope

pilots said:


> But,but,but look what's  happened to our bank balance since they came to power, WHO'S going to fix that?????




I was clearing my PO box this morning, when I heard a woman behind me cry out "Oh God!"

I asked, "Bad news?"

And she said "I just got my power bill."


----------



## sptrawler

This smelly deal with the union, isn't going away. One thinks it is only a matter of time before it blows up again.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ght-in-corruption-scandal-20121012-27i7z.html


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> This smelly deal with the union, isn't going away. One thinks it is only a matter of time before it blows up again.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ght-in-corruption-scandal-20121012-27i7z.html



With Fairfax running with it again, one wonders just how short the fuse now is.


----------



## sptrawler

Now the government has got its 10 minutes of glory 'World Wide' by throwing a bucket of bile over Tony.
They now call 'balise', we don't want to play this anymore. What a disgracefull bunch of $hits.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/labor-seeks-end-to-gender-war-20121013-27jh2.html

They are an absolute disgrace. In my opinion, they belong in a farmyard.
How the hell has government standards dropped to this.


----------



## drsmith

They're giving up because they ended up with more bile on themselves than on anyone else. The Coalition is likely to insist that Julia personally lick it off Tony, or something of that nature. 

What Julia Gillard should have done.

http://afr.com/p/opinion/gillard_lets_slip_her_chance_to_Xq6YMQdEzMIDG5FsmqzuOO


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> They're giving up because they ended up with more bile on themselves than on anyone else. The Coalition is likely to insist that Julia personally lick it off Tony, or something of that nature.
> 
> What Julia Gillard should have done.
> 
> http://afr.com/p/opinion/gillard_lets_slip_her_chance_to_Xq6YMQdEzMIDG5FsmqzuOO




Like I said doc, they belong in the barnyard.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Now the government has got its 10 minutes of glory 'World Wide' by throwing a bucket of bile over Tony.
> They now call 'balise', we don't want to play this anymore. What a disgraceful bunch of $hits.



They have apparently belatedly woken up to the adverse comment about her tirade, and its undeniable hypocrisy.

From the link provided by drsmith:


> But, in my view, a better way to respond to the toxicity of unrestrained personal vitriol now deeply infecting national politics is to rise above it.
> 
> The Slipper affair offered Gillard the means to do this. Gillard could have gone into Parliament and made a speech, with similar towering rhetoric and passion to the one she gave attacking Abbott and defending herself, by arguing that “enough is enough” of the ugliness at every level, not just the sexist one.
> 
> And she could have backed her words with a symbolic action – declaring that Speaker Slipper had lost the confidence of the government.



So true.  And perhaps Gillard et al are now recognising this missed opportunity.

Julia Bishop, on the other hand, did as suggested in the first sentence above on "7.30" and refused to be drawn into the whole sexist thing.  As a result, she offered the Prime Minister a lesson in dignity.


----------



## Calliope

Convicted rapist thinks Abbott is sexist.



> MIKE Tyson is in the red corner.
> 
> Coming out swinging for Julia Gillard and her impassioned speech to parliament about misogyny, Tyson says the Prime Minister is right: society is sexist.
> 
> In a tell-all interview with The Sunday Telegraph, the former heavyweight boxing world champion said he was a big fan of Gillard's prime ministership and the fact Australia has a female leader. "I think it's wonderful for the country," he said.
> 
> Tyson said he caught Gillard's fiery Canberra speech on TV news in Britain, while on tour for his one-man show, Undisputed Truth, which he will bring to the Sydney Convention Centre next month.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-totally-bad-ass/story-fndo317g-1226495035711


----------



## wayneL

Calliope said:


> Convicted rapist thinks Abbott is sexist.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-totally-bad-ass/story-fndo317g-1226495035711




That's the biggest belly laugh I've had in ages... 

Mike Tyson - of all people to lecture on sexism. :


----------



## bunyip

Calliope said:


> Convicted rapist thinks Abbott is sexist.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-totally-bad-ass/story-fndo317g-1226495035711




Mike Tyson is a scumbag of the lowest order......this creep is a convicted rapist, a serial woman basher, and a coward who bit off part of an opponents ear when he, Tyson, was losing a fight.
If ever a person’s opinion about Gillard or Abbot counts for nothing, that person would have to be Tyson.


----------



## dutchie

Julia said:


> They have apparently belatedly woken up to the adverse comment about her tirade, and its undeniable hypocrisy.
> 
> From the link provided by drsmith:
> 
> So true.  And perhaps Gillard et al are now recognising this missed opportunity.
> 
> Julia Bishop, on the other hand, did as suggested in the first sentence above on "7.30" and refused to be drawn into the whole sexist thing.  As a result, she offered the Prime Minister a lesson in dignity.




+1


The ABC still don't get it. They continue to persist that Gillards rant was the best speech since sliced bread when in actual fact its at the other end of the spectrum.
Barry Cassidy and Lenore Taylor continue to foster the hypocrisy. Cassidy, on Insiders, attempts to shut down Michael Stutchbury because he has a different view and tries to explain how it all came about. 

Your ALPABC at work for you. What a joke. Can I withdraw my funding please.


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> The ABC still don't get it. They continue to persist that Gillards rant was the best speech since sliced bread when in actual fact its at the other end of the spectrum.
> Barry Cassidy and Lenore Taylor continue to foster the hypocrisy. Cassidy, on Insiders, attempts to shut down Michael Stutchbury because he has a different view and tries to explain how it all came about.



So, their trying to salvage from the corpse what they can. It sounds like it's back to being a wake.

The following is another good piece, this time from The Australian.



> Labor's story chops and changes and the flurry of ministerial activity is concentrated on winning at any cost: in the parliament this very instant and then whatever it takes to win the next election. Again, as Labor elders keep wondering, what does the party stand for? What is Gillard even about, except for holding on to power, as in those tumultuous, hazy campus days of wine and raging?
> 
> Gillard's "passionate intensity", to recall Yeats, has brought out the worst in Labor: class struggle, gender wars, Slippery Pete and the heartbreaking sense that the voters are being played.




And it's reflected in the polls.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/gillard-and-the-game/story-e6frg6z6-1226494604149


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> So, their trying to salvage from the corpse what they can. It sounds like it's back to being a wake.
> 
> The following is another good piece, this time from The Australian.
> 
> 
> 
> And it's reflected in the polls.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/gillard-and-the-game/story-e6frg6z6-1226494604149




I think the labor government are nothing more than a grubby, shamefull group of individuals masquerading as politicians.
Hell, these people are supposed to be representitive of our values and decency, just unbelievable.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...the-name-calling/story-e6freono-1226495516892

How Gillard thinks a spray like that, on the world stage, is going to impress normal everyday Australians is incomprehensible.


----------



## wayneL

sptrawler said:


> Hell, these people are supposed to be representitive of our values and decency...




Ya reckon???

Not since I've been alive.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> I think the labor government are nothing more than a grubby, shamefull group of individuals masquerading as politicians.
> Hell, these people are supposed to be representitive of our values and decency, just unbelievable.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...the-name-calling/story-e6freono-1226495516892
> 
> How Gillard thinks a spray like that, on the world stage, is going to impress normal everyday Australians is incomprehensible.




This Government is worse than  "THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES" show. It just goes on and on with a new drama each week. Watch for the next episode next week, maybe Gillard might surprise us all by resigning .

AND PIGS MIGHT FLY TOO.


----------



## drsmith

Having watched Insiders today, I didn't think the panel was too bad. Barry Cassidy though is having obvious trouble coming to terms with the Labor ship going down.

One interesting point from Michael Stutchbury claimed that Labor knew about Slipper's lurid texts as far back as May. No one else on the panel questioned this, not even Barry Cassidy. This was also raised in the Reps last week in a question from Julie Bishop.


----------



## moXJO

Labor is having trouble with the social media age catching them out so fast every time the stuff up. So what can they do?

I wonder what Roxon was trying to change in the freedom of information act the other day?
Censor the internet thanks to the wear your undies on your head avenger.
Or maybe track us for 2 years via our internet provider.
I wonder what else has gone through


----------



## bellenuit

drsmith said:


> Having watched Insiders today, I didn't think the panel was too bad. Barry Cassidy though is having obvious trouble coming to terms with the Labor ship going down.




I heard a short passage from, I think, The Insiders being replayed on ABC Radio this morning.

Some person, I would assume a Liberal politician, was talking about all Abbott had done for women and mentioned how he had raised $160K for some women's organisation through some bike riding even he did. Cassidy (it sounded like him) interjected with something like: "I'm sure Lance Armstrong also did things like that". Pretty mean spirited interjection to somehow link Abbott with Armstrong, considering Armstrong's recent fall from grace.


----------



## drsmith

That must have been something else, or a different week.

Greg Combett was interviewed on Insiders this week.


----------



## DB008

Some (read;lots) are still praising Gillard for her speech the other day........

Google news...she has been top hit all week



> Misogyny's a hit for badass Julia Gillard




Article here
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/misogynys-a-hit-for-badass-julia-gillard/story-e6frf7jo-1226494659533

I swear, some of her 'media staff' must be working overtime on blogs and news-sites and rallying the troops too. Online on other sites/blogs/forums, if you mention ALP negatively, you get shot down, fast, hard, and with a ton of bricks....


----------



## MrBurns

I see Gilard has made a self promotion visit to Afghanistan , I'm sure they were all so glad to see her over there


----------



## bunyip

drsmith said:


> Greg Combett was interviewed on Insiders this week.





Did you notice that when Combet was asked if he thought Abbot was a misogynist, the weak bastard didn't have enough character to answer the question?

Clearly, not all of Gillard's colleagues agree with her cowardly and dishonest slur against Abbot.
Combet would have had no hesitation is answering 'yes' if he aggreed with her.


----------



## Calliope

bunyip said:


> Did you notice that when Combet was asked if he thought Abbot was a misogynist, the weak bastard didn't have enough character to answer the question?
> 
> Clearly, not all of Gillard's colleagues agree with her cowardly and dishonest slur against Abbot.
> Combet would have had no hesitation is answering 'yes' if he aggreed with her.




All this **** has been orchestrated by Gillard and spewed out by her chauvinist colleagues in a concerted hate campaign to destroy Abbott.



> *Read a selection of comments made by members of the Gillard government*
> 
> Tony Abbott is a hack. A dog. An aggressive, carping, bitter, mindless, deceptive, dodgy, mendacious, rancid, negative, nasty, muck-raking, untruthful, obstructionist, opportunistic, sexist, political Neanderthal. He is unfit for high office. He cannot control his temper. No trick is too low for him. No stunt is too wild. He is a bully. A thug. A snake oil salesman. A poster child for vile bully-boy values. He has repulsive double standards. He hates women. He stands for nothing. He has unhealthy obsessions. He is nuts.
> Abbott behaves like Jack the Ripper.
> He is Gina Rinehart's butler.
> He is Nancy Reagan without the astrology. He is a douchebag.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...rty-stoning-20121014-27krw.html#ixzz29Jg6GIbc


----------



## drsmith

bunyip said:


> Did you notice that when Combet was asked if he thought Abbot was a misogynist, the weak bastard didn't have enough character to answer the question?
> 
> Clearly, not all of Gillard's colleagues agree with her cowardly and dishonest slur against Abbot.
> Combet would have had no hesitation is answering 'yes' if he aggreed with her.



I did.

None of them now have the guts because they know it's not true. That's why Labor wants to call a truce on a war of it's own making and one that it's now losing.


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard has improved her lead over Tony Abbott as preferred PM in the past week, but when it comes to voting intention, Labor's wheels are back to spinning in the sand.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## finnsk

Sure this will interest some people on this forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIRVekNANfM


----------



## Tink

DB008 said:


> Some (read;lots) are still praising Gillard for her speech the other day........
> 
> Google news...she has been top hit all week
> 
> 
> 
> Article here
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/misogynys-a-hit-for-badass-julia-gillard/story-e6frf7jo-1226494659533
> 
> I swear, some of her 'media staff' must be working overtime on blogs and news-sites and rallying the troops too. Online on other sites/blogs/forums, if you mention ALP negatively, you get shot down, fast, hard, and with a ton of bricks....



Yes -- My daughter brought home the MX net newspaper yesterday from Uni, and the front page is 
Julia Caesar 
A hit for badass Julia Gillard
Oh, for Gods sake.

They are working overtime.


----------



## dutchie

finnsk said:


> Sure this will interest some people on this forum
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIRVekNANfM




He is well suited to wearing red underpants on his head.


----------



## dutchie

Roxon aware of Peter Slipper's lurid texts

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...pers-lurid-texts/story-e6freuzi-1226496642164

What a hypocrite.

For all you taxpayers - check out the last paragraph of the article.

Last two paragraphs:


"Her admission means Ms Roxon had known for four months about Mr Slipper's vulgar texts as she and other ministers pursued Mr Ashby publicly, supported Mr Slipper staying Speaker and also separately attacked Opposition Leader Tony Abbott.

It emerged yesterday Mr Slipper was choosing an artist for an official portrait, to cost taxpayers more than $30,000."


----------



## dutchie

dutchie said:


> He is well suited to wearing red underpants on his head.




In fact it would much improve his gravitas if he wore one on his head all the time.


----------



## noco

I would say Ms Gillard will be starting to become very worried about these latest probes onto her past.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...conduct-on-union/story-fn59noo3-1226496625919


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> I would say Ms Gillard will be starting to become very worried about these latest probes onto her past.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...conduct-on-union/story-fn59noo3-1226496625919




They're obviously misogynist


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> I would say Ms Gillard will be starting to become very worried about these latest probes onto her past.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...conduct-on-union/story-fn59noo3-1226496625919



The interesting day will be when Labor finally tries to put her down (politically, that is).

It will be like trying to kill a cat.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> The interesting day will be when Labor finally tries to put her down (politically, that is).
> 
> It will be like trying to kill a cat.




You have that right, my guess is she will turn feral, poor old Bowen, Swan, Albenese will have bed wetting sessions.LOL
The only one that won't have a problem will be Conroy, my guess he will just sit in the corner with red undies on his head.
Yes, these are running the country, gives you a warm feeling in the pit of the tummy,doesn't it?


----------



## So_Cynical

Will the delusions of the ASF right ever stop?  you guys make Alan Jones look fair and balanced.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> Will the delusions of the ASF right ever stop?  you guys make Alan Jones look fair and balanced.




What, are you trying to espouse, this government has some sort of credibility?
If so, please put up the basis for the argument.LOL


----------



## Bintang

Julia said:


> How tedious it is all becoming.  If only they would, on both sides, just get on with attempting to run the ****** country!




When have the politicians ever run the country? Did anyone notice during the period after the last election when there was no clear outcome and the Country was waiting for its new Government to be formed that the Country still ran by itself. It didn't stop running. It seemed to carry on perfectly. So why do we need these buffoons at all?

Oh sorry Julia, I just realised you didn't say 'running' you actually said "... ATTEMPTING to run..."


----------



## wayneL

sptrawler said:


> What, are you trying to espouse, this government has some sort of credibility?
> If so, please put up the basis for the argument.LOL




No, he's just trying to change the dictionary like Bull Shorten.

Observation/comment is now "delusion".


----------



## wayneL

Oh quick, here's more 'misogyny' http://www.news.com.au/sport/footba...uable-than-women/story-fndkzvnd-1226497251169

Next we'll have Clavin Klein underdaks models campaigning for the same wages as Claudia Schiffer


----------



## bunyip

So_Cynical said:


> Will the delusions of the ASF right ever stop?  you guys make Alan Jones look fair and balanced.




Well SC.....if anyone would know about delusions it would have to be you.....when Rudd was PM I recall you telling this forum that he was doing a good job. This was at a time when Rudd himself was so dissapointed in his own performance that he said publicly  ‘_We’re getting a whacking in the polls, and quite frankly we deserve a whacking’._

You were clearly delusional about Rudd - are you going to continue your delusion by declaring that Gillard’s inept performance is worthy of praise as well?


----------



## Calliope

Gillard comes a gutsa in India.


----------



## pilots

Not as big as the GUTSA she will face at the next election. BRING IT ON.


----------



## wayneL

I'm glad she wasn't injured, but likewise couldn't help thinking it was allegorical.


----------



## Miss Hale

I concur with her comments about heels and grass, not always a good combination.  I was also glad she didn't do herself an injury. However, I too couldn't help thinking of it as a metaphor, and it wasn't just a stumble it was a fall.


----------



## IFocus

So_Cynical said:


> Will the delusions of the ASF right ever stop?  you guys make Alan Jones look fair and balanced.





LOL angry rants mostly


----------



## Miss Hale

IFocus said:


> LOL angry rants mostly




I think you're thinking of Julia Gillard.


----------



## Macquack

Calliope said:


> Gillard comes a gutsa in India.





You are a nasty piece of work, Calliope.

I hope karma gets you.


----------



## Calliope

Macquack said:


> You are a nasty piece of work, Calliope.
> 
> I hope karma gets you.




It'll probably get you and Gillard first when the election comes around. You will both come another gutsa.


----------



## Logique

Noticed the spin put on it by the PM, as reported by Michelle Grattan. 



> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-a-tumble-as-heels-dig-in-20121017-27qyo.html
> 
> ..''For men who get to wear flat shoes all day, every day, if you wear a heel it can get embedded in soft grass.."



That is, flat shoes are something men "get to wear", whereas women presumably are high-heeled footwear victims, even at diplomatic meetings with other heads of state, where they walk across the lawn.

Tony Abbott must be behind this in some way, and he can expect another parliamentary blast when the PM returns.


----------



## moXJO

Gillard is making all the right moves in the public spotlight this week. This is despite the Thomson scandal, her own document disappearing act and Roxon just being plain dodgy. Media coverage has been pretty much in her court and only touching on the dirty side of labor. I would not be surprised if labor moved up in the polls, but its a long game yet.

 Libs need to bite the bullet and bring out Turnbull into the spotlight. The more they get him into the media and on issue the better it will be for them. Women and manginas simply respond better to him and will halt any slide into the election.
The problem is he is just not a team player and can't keep his ego in check.


----------



## Calliope

Turnbull's biggest negative is that he is more popular with the Loony Left, than with coalition voters.:bad:


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> Noticed the spin put on it by the PM, as reported by Michelle Grattan.
> 
> That is, flat shoes are something men "get to wear", whereas women presumably are high-heeled footwear victims, even at diplomatic meetings with other heads of state, where they walk across the lawn.
> 
> Tony Abbott must be behind this in some way, and he can expect another parliamentary blast when the PM returns.




Nonsense! If she doesn't want to be a "high-heeled footwear victim" she could wear boots, like Roxon and Rudd.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Turnbull's biggest negative is that he is more popular with the Loony Left, than with coalition voters.:bad:




Yes Calliope, I agree. Turbull is more in the mould of Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan and for the oldies a Clarke Gabel.

He (Turnbull) has more sex appeal than Abbott and that is what the women go on. It is a shame Turnbull is more Labor than Liberal, he may have been a better leader than Abbott and more popular with the women.

 But we can't help being what we are. Maybe Abbott needs some plastic surgery to help his image.It is shame on Gillard for attempting to brand Abbott as a misogynist.

What ever it takes. That is the Labor Party policy.


----------



## bunyip

noco said:


> What ever it takes. That is the Labor Party policy.




Yes, and not just the Labor Party either, it's also a policy of unions......no wonder the bastards are in bed with each other.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> He (Turnbull) has more sex appeal than Abbott and that is what the women go on.



Noco, that's a pretty ridiculous generalisation.  I have no time for Mr Turnbull and know no women who do.
I doubt that we are particularly atypical of women overall.



> Maybe Abbott needs some plastic surgery to help his image.



Nothing wrong with his appearance.  That is not the problem.


> It is shame on Gillard for attempting to brand Abbott as a misogynist.



Indeed it is.  It is also shame on the Maquarie Dictionary for adjusting their meaning of misogyny to accommodate her.


----------



## Miss Hale

Logique said:


> ..''For men who get to wear flat shoes all day, every day, if you wear a heel it can get embedded in soft grass.."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noticed the spin put on it by the PM, as reported by Michelle Grattan.
> 
> That is, flat shoes are something men "get to wear", whereas women presumably are high-heeled footwear victims, even at diplomatic meetings with other heads of state, where they walk across the lawn.
> 
> Tony Abbott must be behind this in some way, and he can expect another parliamentary blast when the PM returns.
Click to expand...



Interesting.  The film clip I saw of this started from the bit  "...if you wear a heel..." , they cut out the bit about men getting to wear flat shoes.


----------



## Miss Hale

noco said:


> Yes Calliope, I agree. Turbull is more in the mould of Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan and for the oldies a Clarke Gabel.
> 
> He (Turnbull) has more sex appeal than Abbott and that is what the women go on. It is a shame Turnbull is more Labor than Liberal, he may have been a better leader than Abbott and more popular with the women.
> 
> But we can't help being what we are. Maybe Abbott needs some plastic surgery to help his image.It is shame on Gillard for attempting to brand Abbott as a misogynist.
> 
> What ever it takes. That is the Labor Party policy.




Are you kidding?  Turnball sexy? No way  Now Tony Abbott on the other hand has heaps of sex appeal if you ask me  (and I'm not in the Clark Gable category  ). Having said that I think it's a gross generalisation to say women go only on sex appeal.  Abbott's only flaw as far as I can see is he is not as slick a political performer as Turnball and some others.


----------



## noco

Julia and Miss Hale, I would have been so diappointed if niether of you had not reacted to my post.

Does his appearance or his performance make him a good leader. I would say not. I would prefer to judge a leader on what he/she will do to bring this country back to a better living standard. To give some business confidence in the community. You only have to look at the building industry, the manuafacturing and mining. They are all in the doldrums ATM.

Judge him/her after his/her first term and then  let the criticism go at full speed and I will be the one in front I assure you both.


----------



## Miss Hale

noco said:


> Julia and Miss Hale, I would have been so diappointed if niether of you had not reacted to my post.
> 
> Does his appearance or his performance make him a good leader. I would say not. I would prefer to judge a leader on what he/she will do to bring this country back to a better living standard. To give some business confidence in the community. You only have to look at the building industry, the manuafacturing and mining. They are all in the doldrums ATM.
> 
> Judge him/her after his/her first term and then  let the criticism go at full speed and I will be the one in front I assure you both.




Yes, I agree with you.  Appearance and performance are not what it is really about rather what they will bring to the country as leader and in this I put Abbott ahead of Turnball as well.  But you are right, we won't know until we actually see what they can do (whoever it is).[


----------



## noco

I believe the plot is starting to thicken and the case against our Prime Minister and her association with Bruce Wilson may well be exposed very soon.

The link below is well worth reading with lots of sub links and comments.


http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...r-hypocris-with-wikileaks-and-julian-assange/


----------



## Macquack

Calliope said:


> Turnbull's biggest negative is that he is more popular with the *Loony Left*, than with coalition voters.:bad:




According to Calliope, if you lean to the left you are a "loony lefty". 

Using this logic, if you lean to the right you must be a "capitalist arsse kisser".


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> According to Calliope, if you lean to the left you are a "loony lefty".
> 
> Using this logic, if you lean to the right you must be a "capitalist arsse kisser".




Eh?

Capitalists don't kiss arses. They employ capital in a profit motive.

However it has never been demonstrated that leftists are not looney :


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> Eh?
> 
> *Capitalists don't kiss arses*. They employ capital in a profit motive.
> 
> However it has never been demonstrated that leftists are not looney :




I meant the "I will get rich one day dreamers/losers" who *kiss the capitalist's arsse*.

Nothing wrong with being a honest "capitalist", but I can't tolerate the hanger-oners.


----------



## moXJO

noco said:


> Yes Calliope, I agree. Turbull is more in the mould of Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan and for the oldies a Clarke Gabel.
> 
> He (Turnbull) has more sex appeal than Abbott and that is what the women go on. It is a shame Turnbull is more Labor than Liberal, he may have been a better leader than Abbott and more popular with the women.
> 
> But we can't help being what we are. Maybe Abbott needs some plastic surgery to help his image.It is shame on Gillard for attempting to brand Abbott as a misogynist.
> 
> What ever it takes. That is the Labor Party policy.




Abbott just needs to appeal to enough voters to get him safely over the line. Its crazy not to utilize a draw card like Tbull. 
Labor and the unions are gearing up for the mother of all fights. Libs need to play all angles imo. Forget the left and right lib bs, a votes a vote. And screw another result like last time


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Abbott just needs to appeal to enough voters to get him safely over the line. Its crazy not to utilize a draw card like Tbull.



What Malcolm Turnbull needs to realise is that if he was to resume the Liberal leadership, Labor won't exactly give him a honeymoon from the personal attacks being directed at Tony Abbott. This is Labor's last gasp. 

The next session of parliament will be interesting. The Coalition will go after Nicola Roxon and possibly Julia Gillard's past with Slater and Gordon. Questions were asked about both during the most recent sitting.


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> What Malcolm Turnbull needs to realise is that if he was to resume the Liberal leadership, Labor won't exactly give him a honeymoon from the personal attacks being directed at Tony Abbott. This is Labor's last gasp.




Yes, you only have to think back to the sort of things they said about Kevin Rudd when he challenged to know that if someone is the enemy they don't hold back with the personal attacks.


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> What Malcolm Turnbull needs to realise is that if he was to resume the Liberal leadership, Labor won't exactly give him a honeymoon from the personal attacks being directed at Tony Abbott. This is Labor's last gasp.
> 
> The next session of parliament will be interesting. The Coalition will go after Nicola Roxon and possibly Julia Gillard's past with Slater and Gordon. Questions were asked about both during the most recent sitting.



The minor parties and independents must be licking their lips.  Another six months of sledging and no policy discussion and it is hard to see anyone wanting to vote for either party.

Still, most people in this thread are egging it on like it is a good thing, posting every little tid bit they can to act as if it even matters!


----------



## drsmith

Wreck or otherwise, Labor does it by the truck load, not tid-bits.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> The minor parties and independents must be licking their lips.  Another six months of sledging and no policy discussion and it is hard to see anyone wanting to vote for either party.
> 
> Still, most people in this thread are egging it on like it is a good thing, posting every little tid bit they can to act as if it even matters!




The reason it has come to this Ves, is Labor has been in office for 5 years and is yet to run a balanced budget. On the other hand, they have nothing to hold up as a shinning example of where the excessive spending has gone.
This has forced Labor to start a mud slinging campaign (they even admitted a muck racking team has been assembled to collect data on the opposition).
The government would like nothing better than to have Turnbull as leader of the opposition. He wears his heart on his sleeve and that isn't good when you are playing with a nasty, coniving and desperate opposition.
Malcolm doesn't need the money so he can afford to be honest,IMO there are a lot in parliament that are there to secure their pensions. They will do and say anything to achieve that end, I think that exposing their hypocrisy is important, but that is only my opinion.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> The minor parties and independents must be licking their lips.  Another six months of sledging and no policy discussion and it is hard to see anyone wanting to vote for either party.
> 
> Still, most people in this thread are egging it on like it is a good thing, posting every little tid bit they can to act as if it even matters!



Sadly, that is true.  But you should not blame posters on this or any other site.  The politicians themselves are setting this abysmally low standard by their ever increasing gratuitous and inappropriate insults toward one another.

I think the electorate has absolutely had enough and is losing respect for the whole political process, such is the level of disgust.  That's certainly how I feel.  Shame on them all.  They are bringing Australia to an all time low.


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> Turnbull's biggest negative is that he is more popular with the Loony Left, than with coalition voters.:bad:




Actually seen a recent poll where he is more popular with Liberals voters apologies I cannot find the link again.


----------



## MrBurns

> Australia wins seat on UN Security Council




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-19/australia-wins-seat-on-un-security-council/4321946

We'll never hear the end of this..........


----------



## Tink

No, I dont think much of Malcolm. 
He is not a team player, and is always trying to put himself on centre stage with his opinions.

He is Malcolm in the middle.


----------



## Aussiejeff

MrBurns said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-19/australia-wins-seat-on-un-security-council/4321946
> 
> We'll never hear the end of this..........




According to Bob Catarrh on ABC news radio this am, Australia won the seat based on it's fair and peaceful society, wonderful cities, etc etc. Call me cynical, but maybe it was spending AU$25M that got the job done?

So, based on Catarrh's reasoning, that's why Rwanda also got a seat, eh? Fair & peaceful society & wonderful cities too huh? http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/10/20121018175059955706.html

Can anyone tell me how much the peace loving Rwandans spent on bribing the UN compared to our wonderful Bob Catarrh's bid? 

Oh well, AU$25M for a temp 2 year jump seat at the UN circus. A snip at the price. LOL

Wonder how much it will cost to get another 2 year gig after that? Gotta love our pollies. So much responsibility shown.


----------



## IFocus

MrBurns said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-19/australia-wins-seat-on-un-security-council/4321946
> 
> We'll never hear the end of this..........




Quote of the year from Abbott if Australia cannot beat Luxembourg the goverment should give up.

Guess who came second beating Finland, guess what Abbott knows about diplomacy......0........turn back the boats really.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> Quote of the year from Abbott if Australia cannot beat Luxembourg the goverment should give up.
> 
> Guess who came second beating Finland, guess what Abbott knows about diplomacy......0........turn back the boats really.





From:  http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/10/18/267480/5-new-states-awarded-unsc-seats/

Non-permanent seats on the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) are awarded to five new countries for a two-year-long stint.


On Thursday, Rwanda, Argentina, Australia, South Korea, and Luxembourg each won a seat on the 15-member council for the January 2013-December 2014 term, AFP reported. Cambodia, Bhutan, and Finland were denied.

Rwanda had won 148 votes, Australia 140, Argentina 182, South Korea 149, and Luxembourg 131. At least 129 votes were needed from among the 193 UN General Assembly member states for a country to win a Security Council seat. 


Australia 140 votes    Luxembourg 131 votes

In mathematics speak 140>131

Yes,  real bad call Tony


----------



## pixel

I wonder what the Labor-bashing brigade would've said if a Lib/Nat gov'mint had succeeded.
FFS - give our elected government some credit for increasing Australia's recognition Internationally!

Sure, they've made some blunders, most of them brought about by nutters and do-gooders on the Utopian fringe. But if you want representative democracy, you have to accept that a sufficient number of Australians voted for Milne, Hanson-Young, Katter, Joyce... and not enough for rational leaders of either persuasion.

So, take a bow, Australia; the UN may not be as relevant and effective as it could and should be, but it offers the ability to publicly present our views. Given that the tenure extends well past the next election, I hope that our next government won't make a mess of the opportunity.


----------



## Miss Hale

Aussiejeff said:


> According to Bob Catarrh on ABC news radio this am, Australia won the seat based on it's fair and peaceful society, wonderful cities, etc etc. Call me cynical, but maybe it was spending AU$25M that got the job done?
> 
> So, based on Catarrh's reasoning, that's why Rwanda also got a seat, eh? Fair & peaceful society & wonderful cities too huh? http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/10/20121018175059955706.html
> 
> Can anyone tell me how much the peace loving Rwandans spent on bribing the UN compared to our wonderful Bob Catarrh's bid?
> 
> Oh well, AU$25M for a temp 2 year jump seat at the UN circus. A snip at the price. LOL
> 
> Wonder how much it will cost to get another 2 year gig after that? Gotta love our pollies. So much responsibility shown.




Sounds more like FIFA than the UN


----------



## Calliope

By Gillard's high standards The Indian Prime Minister is a misogynist.


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> From:  http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/10/18/267480/5-new-states-awarded-unsc-seats/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia 140 votes    Luxembourg 131 votes
> 
> In mathematics speak 140>131
> 
> Yes,  real bad call Tony




AAh think the Luxembourg number is from a 2nd round against Finland (there are only 193 members) that makes Abbott's call even further below par still with his track record its what we will get when he is PM


----------



## IFocus

pixel said:


> I wonder what the Labor-bashing brigade would've said if a Lib/Nat gov'mint had succeeded.
> FFS - give our elected government some credit for increasing Australia's recognition Internationally!
> 
> Sure, they've made some blunders, most of them brought about by nutters and do-gooders on the Utopian fringe. But if you want representative democracy, you have to accept that a sufficient number of Australians voted for Milne, Hanson-Young, Katter, Joyce... and not enough for rational leaders of either persuasion.
> 
> So, take a bow, Australia; the UN may not be as relevant and effective as it could and should be, but it offers the ability to publicly present our views. Given that the tenure extends well past the next election, I hope that our next government won't make a mess of the opportunity.




Regard less of the tasteless politics (particularly about the cost) having a seat at the big table is very important as China expands its muscle with our Asian neighbours and we get sucked into Afghanistan type wars.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> AAh think the Luxembourg number is from a 2nd round against Finland (there are only 193 members) that makes Abbott's call even further below par still with his track record its what we will get when he is PM




I think you might be right, Luxembourgs' 131 forward,somersault, twist in the Pike Position beats Australias' 140 easily.

Even if Abbott gets 999 out of 1000 decisions wrong it will still be a vast improvement over the wankers running the country at the moment.


----------



## Julia

I can't actually think of too many negatives for Australia having a temporary seat at the UN.  

Does anyone know how it actually works?  Do we presently have an ambassador to the UN who will fill the role?
Is someone new appointed?  Is this the role our Kev has been angling for?  Would it compensate him for not regaining the PM position?


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> Does anyone know how it actually works?  Do we presently have an ambassador to the UN who will fill the role?
> Is someone new appointed?




Yes. The current Australian Ambassador to the UN will continue in that role and represent Australia at the UNSC.


----------



## Julia

Thanks, McLovin


> Mr Gary Quinlan
> Gary Quinlan
> Download photograph
> 
> Photo 1
> Photo 2
> 
> Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the United Nations, New York
> Biography
> 
> Since 2007 until his current appointment as Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Mr Quinlan was the Senior Advisor to the Prime Minister on Foreign Affairs, Defence, and National Security.
> 
> Mr Quinlan joined the then Department of Foreign Affairs in 1973 and has served in several senior positions in the Department in Canberra including First Assistant Secretary, Consular, Public Diplomacy and Parliamentary Affairs Division (2007) and First Assistant Secretary, Americas and Europe Division (2000-01). He was Head of the Australian Delegation to the Law of the Sea Preparatory Commission from 1987 until 1988.
> 
> Mr Quinlan's overseas assignments have been as Deputy Head of Mission, Australian Embassy Washington DC (2005-07); High Commissioner to Singapore (2001-05); First Secretary, Australian Mission to the United Nations, New York (1981-85); Australian Deputy Permanent Delegate to UNESCO, Paris (1979-81); and Second Secretary in Dublin (1974-77). He was attached to the Economic Development Institute, World Bank in Washington D.C. (1984).
> 
> Mr Quinlan also served as Chief of Staff to the Minister for Trade (1993-94) and to the Minister for Industry, Science and Technology (1994-96).
> 
> Mr Quinlan was educated at the University of Newcastle and holds a Bachelor of Arts degree with honours. He also holds the honorary degree of Doctor of Letters (Hon DLitt Newc, 2007).


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> I can't actually think of too many negatives for Australia having a temporary seat at the UN.
> 
> Does anyone know how it actually works?  Do we presently have an ambassador to the UN who will fill the role?
> Is someone new appointed?  Is this the role our Kev has been angling for?  Would it compensate him for not regaining the PM position?




Julia, our Kevvie had his eye on the UN Secretary General's job until Banki Ki Moon decided to extend his term for another 5 years. 

Rudd would not have been able to accept the UN Secretary General's job had he been Prime Minister.

I leave you to figure out the rest. Yes, it all went from bad to worse with he and Gillard.


----------



## joea

I will accept the criticism that I said that I would not contribute to this forum anymore.!
However I do read it.
I could not help myself.
If KRudd was given the job on the UN, then Jules has used $25 million of taxpayers money to
get rid of Kevin for her second shot at the title.!!!!!
Gee, you are so slow!!!
joea


----------



## MrBurns

joea said:


> I will accept the criticism that I said that I would not contribute to this forum anymore.!
> However I do read it.
> I could not help myself.
> If KRudd was given the job on the UN, then Jules has used $25 million of taxpayers money to
> get rid of Kevin for her second shot at the title.!!!!!
> Gee, you are so slow!!!
> joea




The rest of us work our guts out while these parasites live the high life.

Rudd would love to be at the UN he could write essays and generally wallow in his own perceived importance at our expense.


----------



## joea

MrBurns said:


> The rest of us work our guts out while these parasites live the high life.
> 
> Rudd would love to be at the UN he could write essays and generally wallow in his own perceived importance at our expense.




You got it right Mr. Burns
joea


----------



## IFocus

joea said:


> I will accept the criticism that I said that I would not contribute to this forum anymore.!





No criticism from me Joea, fire away....... welcome back


----------



## Julia

joea said:


> I will accept the criticism that I said that I would not contribute to this forum anymore.!



What criticism?  I don't remember reading your announcing that you would not contribute any more.

McLovin has advised that the role at the UN will be taken by our present Ambassador to the UN who (on reading his bio) seems well qualified for the position.
Hard to imagine that he would suddenly resign and the role be assigned to Mr Rudd, though I guess if they could do it to Harry Jenkins they can do it to a career diplomat.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> What criticism?  I don't remember reading your announcing that you would not contribute any more.
> 
> McLovin has advised that the role at the UN will be taken by our present Ambassador to the UN who (on reading his bio) seems well qualified for the position.
> Hard to imagine that he would suddenly resign and the role be assigned to Mr Rudd, though I guess if they could do it to Harry Jenkins they can do it to a career diplomat.




Yes it's a bit like a scene from the "Pirates of the Carribean" just put Julia in the place of Davey Jones, on the 'Flying Dutchman'.
Throw them overboard, for the greater good.LOL

Well, that is unless you have some dirty underwear, then we keep you onboard. Lest you expose ours.LOL


----------



## drsmith

And how much taxpayers money was bribed as charity to other nations to buy this temporary seat on the UN ?


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> And how much taxpayers money was bribed as charity to other nations to buy this temporary seat on the UN ?



Who cares, as long as it deflects the public eye from the main issues.


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> Who cares, as long as it deflects the public eye from the main issues.




Yeah, still waiting for the prophecy to come true and for the world to end.  Perhaps it will happen when the Mayan calendar ends and Abbott will look like a genius?


----------



## bunyip

Sent to me by a friend.......do we know a government that fits this description??!!

_INEPTOCRACY
(in-ep-toc-ra-cy)

A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. _


----------



## moXJO

Ves said:


> Yeah, still waiting for the prophecy to come true and for the world to end.




Tell that to small business owners the end has come and gone and now it's just a long stretch of hell


----------



## Ves

moXJO said:


> Tell that to small business owners the end has come and gone and now it's just a long stretch of hell



They say that at the start of every recession!  Next!


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> Yeah, still waiting for the prophecy to come true and for the world to end.  Perhaps it will happen when the Mayan calendar ends and Abbott will look like a genius?




This mini budget sounds ominous. It must be time to pay for stupid spending by a stupid government.
Don't think it will be free plasmas and insulation, Waynes answer just keep upping taxes. 
He couldn't run a garage sale.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/budget-shock-21b-shortfall-20121019-27wqj.html

He is finding out it's easier to spend money and big note yourself, than save it.
Oh I forgot, all he has to do, is hit up you and me. LOL 
What a priceless bunch of goons.


----------



## moXJO

sptrawler said:


> This mini budget sounds ominous. It must be time to pay for stupid spending by a stupid government.
> Don't think it will be free plasmas and insulation, Waynes answer just keep upping taxes.
> He couldn't run a garage sale.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/budget-shock-21b-shortfall-20121019-27wqj.html
> 
> He is finding out it's easier to spend money and big note yourself, than save it.
> Oh I forgot, all he has to do, is hit up you and me. LOL
> What a priceless bunch of goons.




God imagine if libs never got in after keating, we would have ended up worse than greece. The majority of what labor is doing is simply not working as intended. Funny how labor now wants to fix other countries through the UN after making a mess here.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> This mini budget sounds ominous. It must be time to pay for stupid spending by a stupid government.
> Don't think it will be free plasmas and insulation, Waynes answer just keep upping taxes.
> He couldn't run a garage sale.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/budget-shock-21b-shortfall-20121019-27wqj.html
> 
> He is finding out it's easier to spend money and big note yourself, than save it.
> Oh I forgot, all he has to do, is hit up you and me. LOL
> What a priceless bunch of goons.



It could be worst than that, depending on whose forecasts you want to believe.

http://afr.com/p/national/swan_grip_on_surplus_gets_slippery_DtZ0lTolFYAQfrBR9Wh2SP


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Who cares, as long as it deflects the public eye from the main issues.



Greg Sheridan has written a piece on the scale of the bribery to secure that seat.



> One of the many dolorous consequences of this vote is its effect on our vastly bloated and ineffective aid budget, already over $5 billion and scheduled to rise to $8bn and more.
> 
> It is not the few tens of millions of dollars spent on diplomacy related to the bid that counts. It is rather the hundreds of millions, perhaps over time billions, of dollars of distortion in our aid budget that the bid necessitates.
> 
> Over the time of the bid we have more than tripled our aid to Africa. We give aid too thinly to too many countries and much of it is ineffective.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...but-at-what-cost/story-e6frg76f-1226499607817


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> This mini budget sounds ominous. It must be time to pay for stupid spending by a stupid government.
> Don't think it will be free plasmas and insulation, Waynes answer just keep upping taxes.
> He couldn't run a garage sale.
> 
> He is finding out it's easier to spend money and big note yourself, than save it.
> Oh I forgot, all he has to do, is hit up you and me. LOL
> What a priceless bunch of goons.




What Mitt Romney said about Barack Obama applies equally to Julia Gillard;

"So little time...so much to redistribute."


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> "So little time...so much to redistribute."




Jobless payment too low, says Bill Shorten.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...oo-low-s-shorten/story-fn59niix-1226499665160


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> It could be worst than that, depending on whose forecasts you want to believe.
> 
> http://afr.com/p/national/swan_grip_on_surplus_gets_slippery_DtZ0lTolFYAQfrBR9Wh2SP



I have a sneaking suspicion that the current debt ceiling ($300 billion is it?) could become a bigger talking point over the next few years.  Both parties to me don't seem to have too many ideas on returning to surplus as a temporary stability measure (despite all the talk).  They both want to spend money on new initiatives (which I have no big problem with - future generations should be paying for better infrastructure and services - on the cavaet that we do not over-extend via extravagence and waste).  Lots of budget black holes and not much discussion on how to fill these as far as I can see.  Spending promises seem to have more weight than cost cutting when winning elections (which makes sense because the latter strikes at the insecurity of the public).

This is why I want both parties to talk about policies and budgeting in the coming months - I think it could become fascinating. Especially if it is boring to the media - it means something productive is bound to happen.  Unfortunately short-termism is more likely to prevail than any long-term thought.


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> This mini budget sounds ominous. It must be time to pay for stupid spending by a stupid government.
> Don't think it will be free plasmas and insulation, Waynes answer just keep upping taxes.
> He couldn't run a garage sale.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/budget-shock-21b-shortfall-20121019-27wqj.html
> 
> He is finding out it's easier to spend money and big note yourself, than save it.
> Oh I forgot, all he has to do, is hit up you and me. LOL
> What a priceless bunch of goons.



I think the Liberals will have to raise taxes if they form a government at the next election too - but that might be just me.  The backdrop of falling taxation revenues and ballooning costs in this country almost gaurantees it.


----------



## McLovin

Ves said:


> I think the Liberals will have to raise taxes if they form a government at the next election too - but that might be just me.  The backdrop of falling taxation revenues and ballooning costs in this country almost gaurantees it.




Yeah, I agree. The states are the ones with the most to lose, which is why I think a US style land tax system is on its way. I read somewhere that the ACT is already implementing something like this and scrapping stamp duty.


----------



## noco

moXJO said:


> God imagine if libs never got in after keating, we would have ended up worse than greece. The majority of what labor is doing is simply not working as intended. Funny how labor now wants to fix other countries through the UN after making a mess here.




I thought the "GOOSE" was the worlds best treasurer.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> I thought the "GOOSE" was the worlds best treasure.




Didn't you mean the treasurer was the worlds best GOOSE.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Greg Sheridan has written a piece on the scale of the bribery to secure that seat.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...but-at-what-cost/story-e6frg76f-1226499607817




Yeah, how much did Bill's mother-in-law give to those African countries in foreign aid? 

A lot more than the $25,000,000 Labor talks about.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Didn't you mean the treasurer was the worlds best GOOSE.




Yeah, I will go along with that correction.


----------



## Calliope

If Obama loses the election, and it's on the cards that he will, then bang goes our foreign policy. The only rationale for our presence in Afghanistan is that our Julia is brown-nosing to Obama. A conservative government in Washington will involve a complete revision of Labor foreign policy. A majority of Australians would like to see us out of this mess, so it it could be a popular decision.


----------



## So_Cynical

Calliope said:


> If Obama loses the election, and it's on the cards that he will, then bang goes our foreign policy. The only rationale for our presence in Afghanistan is that our Julia is brown-nosing to Obama. A conservative government in Washington will involve a complete revision of Labor foreign policy. A majority of Australians would like to see us out of this mess, so it it could be a popular decision.




WTF

What are you smoking?

Aust and the US will start pulling out next year (3 months away) and will be all out by the end of 2014, combat troops that is.


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> If Obama loses the election, and it's on the cards that he will, then bang goes our foreign policy. The only rationale for our presence in Afghanistan is that our Julia is brown-nosing to Obama. A conservative government in Washington will involve a complete revision of Labor foreign policy. A majority of Australians would like to see us out of this mess, so it it could be a popular decision.





Actually foreign policy between the Dems and GOP is exactly the same Obama has maintained Bushes position of just about all issues


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Actually foreign policy between the Dems and GOP is exactly the same Obama has maintained Bushes position of just about all issues




Maybe, but the only reason we remain in Afghanistan is because Obama wants us there, and Gillard can't say no to Obama. If you can think of any other reason why we should continue such an idiotic stance, I would like to hear it.  As Cynical so crudely indicates we are geared to Obama's policies on withdrawal strategy.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Yeah, how much did Bill's mother-in-law give to those African countries in foreign aid?
> 
> A lot more than the $25,000,000 Labor talks about.



Are you actually seriously suggesting the Governor-General decides to which country and at what level Australia's foreign aid budget is determined?


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Are you actually seriously suggesting the Governor-General decides to which country and at what level Australia's foreign aid budget is determined?




Julia don't you remember Quintin Bryce personally visiting 7 or 8 African countries last year and gave them heaps of cash just to gain their vote for a seat on the UN?


----------



## Julia

She was simply doing it on behalf of the government.  Not her personal decision re how much and to whom to give the funds.  Probably nicer for the African countries to have her as a guest than our Kev.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> I think the Liberals will have to raise taxes if they form a government at the next election too - but that might be just me.  The backdrop of falling taxation revenues and ballooning costs in this country almost gaurantees it.




Well at last I agree with you. I think people are in for a shock, the first one is coming next month.
However it won't be the last IMO, the premature ejecolati-- sorry the premature splurge of spending. Is coming home to roost.


----------



## McLovin

Calliope said:


> Maybe, but the only reason we remain in Afghanistan is because Obama wants us there, and Gillard can't say no to Obama. If you can think of any other reason why we should continue such an idiotic stance, I would like to hear it.  As Cynical so crudely indicates we are geared to Obama's policies on withdrawal strategy.




What a whimsical view of the world.


----------



## Calliope

McLovin said:


> What a whimsical view of the world.




Whimsical? No...realistic. Take a look - she's all over him like a rash. In your own whimsical way can you imagine her behaving like this with Romney?

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...iQeIxoGQCg&sqi=2&ved=0CEcQsAQ&biw=910&bih=446

And this has been the result!


----------



## bunyip

The ACT election result will put frowns of consternation of the faces of Gillard and the Greens. The Greens in particular copped a thumping, while the Libs well and truly exceeded expectations. Hopefully this is the shape of things to come in next years federal election.


----------



## Logique

I agree with Robert Manne here,
for the life of me, I can't understand why Rudd didn't just let them sack him from Foreign Affairs. The piece is a reasonable summary of why Labor is in such trouble. 



> http://www.themonthly.com.au/blog-long-goodbye-explaining-gillard-s-collapse-robert-manne-4815
> 
> ..rather than waiting to be dismissed as Minister for Foreign Affairs and acquiring thereby a second halo of popular martyrdom, Rudd hastily resigned. Flushed out by the Gillard loyalists, Rudd’s challenge had come far too early..


----------



## McLovin

Calliope said:


> Whimsical? No...realistic. Take a look - she's all over him like a rash. In your own whimsical way can you imagine her behaving like this with Romney?




We're joined at the hip to America, we'd still be in Afghanistan whoever was in the White House.


----------



## Ves

McLovin said:


> We're joined at the hip to America, we'd still be in Afghanistan whoever was in the White House.



Exactly - it's no where near a recent development that Australia's foreign policy has been to get into bed with the larger Western economic powerhouses.


----------



## Calliope

McLovin said:


> We're joined at the hip to America, we'd still be in Afghanistan whoever was in the White House.




Yeah, maybe, but I can't imagine Abbott feeling Romney's ar$e.:bad:


----------



## wayneL

Calliope said:


> Yeah, maybe, but I can't imagine Abbott feeling Romney's ar$e.:bad:
> 
> View attachment 49403




Chunder-worthy that is. 

I just hate the false and pretentious 'warmness' of these clowns. :frown:


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> She was simply doing it on behalf of the government.  Not her personal decision re how much and to whom to give the funds.  Probably nicer for the African countries to have her as a guest than our Kev.




I well aware it would not be her decision, but she is the Governor General after all and would have been sent there to impress those African countries with lots of incentuive just to get the UN vote.

Many well spent???????????????


----------



## sptrawler

Well this gives us anti Gillard, goon show, haters a morsel. 
Maxine McKew, who was parachuted in as a high profile scud, to beat Howard and then quit politics(what a claim to fame)
At least now she has come honest and said it as it is.
Apparently she has written a book and lays bare the Rudd overthrow, she reckons Gillard is a control freak and plotted all along to cause Rudds downfall.
Well duh, we've being going on about "Gillard I'm not hearing you" for a long time.
It is just a shame Maxine was drawn into the slime, to oust one of our better politicians.
On a persoal note, she should have done what Garrett, another member of the parachute squadren did.
Tell them "Sod off I'm not going quietly untill I get a pension".
Unfortunatelly for Maxine, she probably has a mirror in the house and has a moral compass.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ted-against-rudd/story-fn59niix-1226500131611

I see Bill Shorten has been slapped into a TOJ as usual.
T.O.J - Three letter abreviation for Tower of Jelly. LOL,LOL,LOL

The country is spiralling back and now even their own are starting to realise, we will reach a piont of no return.

Maybe the government should be running free Greek, Itallian, Spanish and Portugese lessons.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Well this gives us anti Gillard, goon show, haters a morsel.
> Maxine McKew, who was parachuted in as a high profile scud, to beat Howard and then quit politics(what a claim to fame)



Um, sptrawler, she lost her seat at the last election.  Not exactly her choice to 'quit politics'.

I'd be interested to read her book, and applaud anything which will encourage Labor's women to fight amongst themselves rather than direct their venom at the Libs, but I'll never forget her triumphant claim of superiority when she ousted John Howard from his seat.

Just another ABC broadcaster, Labor hack, who is now pissed off enough to want to hit back at the machine.


----------



## Miss Hale

So Gillard is now being accused of sexism by Rudd and McKew. She calls it when she sees it so I hope she gives herself a slap down in parliament next week 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ed-up-kevin-rudd/story-e6freuy9-1226499866236


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Um, sptrawler, she lost her seat at the last election.  Not exactly her choice to 'quit politics'.
> 
> I'd be interested to read her book, and applaud anything which will encourage Labor's women to fight amongst themselves rather than direct their venom at the Libs, but I'll never forget her triumphant claim of superiority when she ousted John Howard from his seat.
> 
> Just another ABC broadcaster, Labor hack, who is now pissed off enough to want to hit back at the machine.




Well In my opinion if you have strengh of conviction ( if you toppled the current popular prime minister) you would put yourself up for another tilt.

Maybe reading her first book "Brutish politics" on the Howard government. Would be a precursor to reading the new book.


----------



## sptrawler

Miss Hale said:


> So Gillard is now being accused of sexism by Rudd and McKew. She calls it when she sees it so I hope she gives herself a slap down in parliament next week
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ed-up-kevin-rudd/story-e6freuy9-1226499866236





Nothing as nasty as a cat when it is cornered.
Shorten, Albanese, Swan and Bowen, will be pi$$ing their pants waiting for the spanking that will be coming, when she gets home.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Gillard better PM than Rudd*

While personally believing that Tony Abbott will be the Menzies of our times, I do believe that Gillard is making a better job of being PM than ping pong balls Rudd ever did.

gg


----------



## cynic

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*

GG, I agree that Julia has proven to be superior to Rudd in the PM stakes. (I actually regret the fact that she's been so successful in her endeavours given that her intentions for Australia are significantly variant to my own.) 

As for Abbott, I simply cannot agree with your comparison. I think he's an okay politician just not leadership material. I haven't witnessed anything even closely resembling leadership/PM material within the LNP since Peacock vacated the role during the last millenium. 

I personally wish that the LNP would realise the strategic importance of leadership/representation, especially given the number of Australians (including many voters) whom rely largely upon the content of media broadcasts in the formation of their opinions.


----------



## bunyip

Maybe Maxine McKew is learning a well-deserved lesson that if you mix with dogs you can end up with fleas.


----------



## Logique

Hows this for a political hand grenade.



> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-kevin-rudd-poll/story-fn59niix-1226500327465
> 
> *Labor could win under Kevin Rudd: poll*
> 
> by: SID MAHER, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT
> From: The Australian
> October 22, 2012 12:00AM
> 
> RESTORING Kevin Rudd to the Labor leadership *would boost the government's primary vote by 11 percentage points *and put it on track for victory at a federal election, according to leaked polling for the union movement.
> 
> The polling, conducted by Galaxy Research from October 12-15 *for a major left-wing union* and obtained by The Australian, shows Labor would be transformed from a losing position in three key marginal seats under Julia Gillard's leadership to victories in all of them if Mr Rudd were restored to the prime ministership.


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> Hows this for a political hand grenade.




Wont happen, Gillard has learned well that BS works, she now has a cult following among every woman that feels downtrodden, all she needs to do is make up more fairy tales about Abbott and they'll believe her be it true or not.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Wont happen, Gillard has learned well that BS works, she now has a cult following among every woman that feels downtrodden, all she needs to do is make up more fairy tales about Abbott and they'll believe her be it true or not.



Don't worry Burnsie. The electorate will give this government the boot when it gets its chance.

The Coalition though does need to be able to articulate a vision between now and then, and Tony Abbott needs to be able to counter Julia Gillard's nonsense.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Don't worry Burnsie. The electorate will give this government the boot when it gets its chance.
> 
> The Coalition though does need to be able to articulate a vision between now and then, and Tony Abbott needs to be able to counter Julia Gillard's nonsense.




He does indeed, but doesnt look like he can, there's no real replacement for him either.........

Agree Labor will get the bullet but Gillard is living it up in the meantime.


----------



## Julia

Ms Gillard's popularity up another five points in today's Nielsen poll.  Mr Abbott's down.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*

I agree with Cynic.  Tony Abbott, despite his success in scaring everyone silly with the carbon tax, is now looking a bit hollow.  In the face of Ms Gillard's attacks on him, he's like a rabbit in the headlights:  no idea how to handle it.

A bit of scorn about the misogynist label might be a decent start.  Even pointing out the many projects for which he has carried out fund raising to benefit women's causes.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Ms Gillard's popularity up another five points in today's Nielsen poll.  Mr Abbott's down.




Yes Julia, I just cannot believe what she has done and is still able to get her long nose in front.

Will we see a change in the Coalition leadership after all this or will they stick with Abbott? They may wait for the next poll and hope to hell Gillard trips over again. Maybe the Bruce Wilson affair may raise its ugly head in this week's sitting of parliament

Abbott will need to turn things around if he is to stay leader of the coalition. 

I like Christopher Pyne. He seems to handle himself very well.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> Ms Gillard's popularity up another five points in today's Nielsen poll.  Mr Abbott's down.




Hopefully libs can use the Rudd/Gillard hate fight to their advantage for the next few weeks before they have to use any of their own ammo on labor corruption and track record.  Starting to announcing policy in the home stretch to the election is probably the idea. 

I still think libs should shuffle out Hockey and bring in TBull so long as he stays on party lines. He will pull in a lot of the just left of center votes. Hockey is too lackluster and not very competent.


----------



## Knobby22

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*

Latest Neilsen poll has the 2 party preferred part coalition at 52% with Labor. Still an easy win.
Preferred Primie minister is 50% Gillard, 40% Abbott.


----------



## moXJO

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*

Still a long game yet


----------



## Julia

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*



Knobby22 said:


> Latest Neilsen poll has the 2 party preferred part coalition at 52% with Labor. Still an easy win.
> Preferred Primie minister is 50% Gillard, 40% Abbott.






moXJO said:


> Still a long game yet



The trend is toward Labor/Gillard.
The Libs need to pull their socks up or they'll lose an unloseable election.


----------



## Julia

It's just astonishing that in the light of the total debacle that is border control, the government is gaining ground.

Can it just be the sweep of sentiment (misplaced) over the Prime Minister's tirade about how she has suffered at the hands of a misogynist opposition?  
A commentator on the radio this morning analysing the latest poll said he felt one of the factors in Gillard's favour and detracting further from Abbott was that the carbon tax is, so far at least, not turning out to be the armageddon Tony Abbott insisted it would be.

He also made the point that much of the increase in Gillard's popularity has come from males, for the first time.
Hard to fathom that.


----------



## drsmith

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*

The Coalition won't lose unless they do something silly like replace Tony Abbott with Malcolm Turnbull. He's politically too soft and Labor would rip him to pieces.

The next session of Parliament I suspect will be the moment of truth for one of the leaders of the two major parties.


----------



## Calliope

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*



Julia said:


> The trend is toward Labor/Gillard.
> The Libs need to pull their socks up or they'll lose an unloseable election.




Yes, Gillard is on a roll. The Labor "destroy the sexist, misogynist Abbott" campaign, is gaining momentum. The feminists are all getting stuck into him on ABC radio, on Twitter-World and in the Fairfax press, and the dirt is sticking.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> A commentator on the radio this morning analysing the latest poll said he felt one of the factors in Gillard's favour and detracting further from Abbott was that the carbon tax is, so far at least, not turning out to be the armageddon Tony Abbott insisted it would be.



This is exactly the reason I am seeing -  Abbott ran a highly risky "fear campaign" with little policy substance of his own, and now that reality has not turned out nearly as bad as his campaign would have had us suggest it would he is losing ground fast.

Let's remember this is a Coalition government that had the biggest capital gains tax and mining boom that this country has seen and all they had left in the bank at the end of it was a tiny surplus (in the context) and a massive structural deficit (because of which you will find Labour had to spend large amounts of money). The Liberals face the same problems that Labour do, spending behind curve at the start of last decade, has left structural holes in our economy.  Let's remember Howard also sold off a lot of public assets to achieve this too.

It is hard to say whether the much discussed surplus is really that good of an idea when you consider these issues as a backdrop.  You can say that growing debt currently is an issue, but to put the breaks on it and heavens forbid start repaying it (before 2022 I think was mentioned today) it would appear that you would really need to damage the economy in the process (through lack of spending).  If you damage the economy too severely, then the current manageable debt becomes an even bigger problem all of a sudden.

One would get the impression, at least from the ideas that actually get publicised, that neither party at the moment has much of an idea on how to face this issue.


----------



## MrBurns

I've got no doubt the Carbon Tax Will bite hard in the future.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> I've got no doubt the Carbon Tax Will bite hard in the future.




Yes Burnsie, I don't believe we have felt the full affect as yet.


----------



## drsmith

The carbon tax over time will be an accumulating cholesterol on our economic arteries.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> The carbon tax over time will be an accumulating cholesterol on our economic arteries.




+ 1.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> The carbon tax over time will be an accumulating cholesterol on our economic arteries.




That is a good way of describing it. 
These idiots running around saying the sky hasn't fallen in, obviously have no understanding of the tax. Gillard and the goon show, love these sort of voters, feed them rubbish wind them up and send them out voters.
Anyway, we've done it to death, can't wait for the carbon tax on trucks. Coming to supermarket near you.


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> These idiots running around saying the sky hasn't fallen in, obviously have no understanding of the tax.



Very, very bold statement.  Can I have a lend of your crystal ball when you're done pontificating?


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> That is a good way of describing it.
> These idiots running around saying the sky hasn't fallen in, obviously have no understanding of the tax.



Well, I must be one of these idiots.  I have seen a small increase in my electricity bill.  I may be paying other increases in prices of which I'm unaware because it's impossible to distinguish these from normal supply/demand variations.

It certainly hasn't had any unmanageable impact on my life so far.

(That's not to say I'm at all in favour of it:  simply commenting that Mr Abbott seems to  have once again indulged in rhetoric that in the event turns out to be well and truly overdone, and he is losing credibility and votes as a result.)


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Well, I must be one of these idiots.  I have seen a small increase in my electricity bill.  I may be paying other increases in prices of which I'm unaware because it's impossible to distinguish these from normal supply/demand variations.
> 
> It certainly hasn't had any unmanageable impact on my life so far.
> 
> (That's not to say I'm at all in favour of it:  simply commenting that Mr Abbott seems to  have once again indulged in rhetoric that in the event turns out to be well and truly overdone, and he is losing credibility and votes as a result.)




I think the point we're trying to make is that this is a ticking time bomb, companies havent felt the full force yet and when they do we will cop it. Wait and see.


----------



## Julia

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*



Calliope said:


> Yes, Gillard is on a roll. The Labor "destroy the sexist, misogynist Abbott" campaign, is gaining momentum. The feminists are all getting stuck into him on ABC radio, on Twitter-World and in the Fairfax press, and the dirt is sticking.



Yes, it is, because he is utterly failing to counter their attacks.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> Very, very bold statement.  Can I have a lend of your crystal ball when you're done pontificating?




Well it is pretty simple, when you add a tax to make your 'cheap energy' more expensive. 
You lose a cost advantage over your competitors, I am sure I read we have lost 100,000 jobs in manufacturing.
Apart from having cheap energy we don't have many advantages over Asia, that is unless we start paying you the same as them.LOl
Not a crystal ball, just common sense. 
If all you are doing is sending raw materials o/s and importing finished product.
While at the same time increasing taxes on our own producers, eventually you have no raw material to sell and your manufacturing has shut down.
The really amusing thing is everyone thinks "we don't have to worry, it won't happen in my lifetime" 

Under Howard, it was a bit like "slowly, slowly catch the monkey"
Under Labor it is a bit like "someone catch that little $hit and wring its neck"


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> You lose a cost advantage over your competitors
> Apart from having cheap energy we don't have many advantages over *Asia*



Did you realise that China, India, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea to name a few have all had some kind of advanced political discussions  regarding (or in some cases have implemented) a tax on carbon dioxide emissions?

The tax itself is not large enough to destroy any cost advantage that our energy industry may or may not have (your words, not mine).  

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201203/s3461101.htm

This source, I am not sure how valid you think it is, predicts that our coal exports will triple over the next decade.

You seem to be acting more out of emotion than any logic.

edit: in regards to manufacturing, our industries here have been in a long, slow decline for a long time now...  I don't think the carbon tax has anything to do with that.


----------



## sptrawler

*Re: Gillard better PM than Rudd*



drsmith said:


> The Coalition won't lose unless they do something silly like replace Tony Abbott with Malcolm Turnbull. He's politically too soft and Labor would rip him to pieces.
> 
> The next session of Parliament I suspect will be the moment of truth for one of the leaders of the two major parties.




As usual, I'm with you doc, it is still a long way out from an election and this campaign manager for Labor, is pulling rabbits out of the hat.
The worst thing the Coalition could do would be to panic and throw out Abbott, especially to put in Turnbull. They would end up giving him a nervous breakdown IMO.
It is a bit like a game of chess, there is no point playing all your big shotts early. Then finding when you are within range, you have no ammo.
If this ridiculous government goes untill the end of next year, the opposition would be stupid to start the fight 12 months out.
Lets get real, the Labor game master is no goose(unlike Swan) and will find a way of deflecting the issues and throwing up crap like Julias speach to the aggrieved female voter. Not wanting to be funny, but I haven't seen Abbott get nasty with anyone, he just says it as he sees it.


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> I think the point we're trying to make is that this is a ticking time bomb, companies havent felt the full force yet and when they do we will cop it. Wait and see.




You are correct in saying that the full force of the carbon tax hasn't been felt yet. However, I think the problem for Abbott is that the carbon tax will not be accounted for as a distinguishable item in the myriad of cost factors that make up the cost of doing business. It would be too complex to do. The more time the carbon tax has to flow through and be recycled through the economy, the greater the cumulative impact of it will be (the multiplier effect at play) but also the more difficult it becomes to identify the percentage of any cost increases down the line to any particular cost at the origin. 

Abbott needed the carbon tax to have an immediate and detrimental impact on the economy for his predictions to be vindicated, as the cause-effect is then at its most obvious. It is now too late. Even if the economy tanks over the next few years no one will be able to say that the carbon tax was the fault and without it we would have been OK. Abbott blaming the carbon tax for the eventual demise would be viewed as "well he would say that, wouldn't he".


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> Did you realise that China, India, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea to name a few have all had some kind of advanced political discussions  regarding (or in some cases have implemented) a tax on carbon dioxide emissions?
> 
> The tax itself is not large enough to destroy any cost advantage that our energy industry may or may not have (your words, not mine).
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201203/s3461101.htm
> 
> This source, I am not sure how valid you think it is, predicts that our coal exports will triple over the next decade.
> 
> You seem to be acting more out of emotion than any logic.
> 
> edit: in regards to manufacturing, our industries here have been in a long, slow decline for a long time now...  I don't think the carbon tax has anything to do with that.




Well that must be the reason China and India have bought the only two coal mines in W.A.
Apparently they think there is an advantage in owning cheap energy and yes, I'm sure they will put a tax on it to make it more expensive for themselves. What a hoot LOL,LOL,LOL

Also I'm sure the coal exports will triple over the next decade, also I'm sure India and China will own the mines.LOL,LOL,LOL
Put your head in the sand while the sun is shinning, when it gets cold and you pull your head out, it will be different.

Have a read of this.
http://www.corrs.com.au/thinking/insights/the-great-indian-coal-rush/

We are throwing away our living standards to give our fuel away. One day we will be there, or our grandchildren will be there with their hands out. Sad just very sad. IMO


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> You are correct in saying that the full force of the carbon tax hasn't been felt yet. However, I think the problem for Abbott is that the carbon tax will not be accounted for as a distinguishable item in the myriad of cost factors that make up the cost of doing business. It would be too complex to do. The more time the carbon tax has to flow through and be recycled through the economy, the greater the cumulative impact of it will be (the multiplier effect at play) but also the more difficult it becomes to identify the percentage of any cost increases down the line to any particular cost at the origin.
> 
> Abbott needed the carbon tax to have an immediate and detrimental impact on the economy for his predictions to be vindicated, as the cause-effect is then at its most obvious. It is now too late. Even if the economy tanks over the next few years no one will be able to say that the carbon tax was the fault and without it we would have been OK. Abbott blaming the carbon tax for the eventual demise would be viewed as "well he would say that, wouldn't he".



You've more adequately expressed what I was attempting to point out.
My electricity bill arrived today and was considerably less than I was anticipating.  That's contrary to what Mr Abbott has been insisting would happen.



Ves said:


> Did you realise that China, India, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea to name a few have all had some kind of advanced political discussions  regarding (or in some cases have implemented) a tax on carbon dioxide emissions?



"Advanced political discussions"????   Anyone can have discussions about anything.  Until our major trading partners are operating under the same conditions as Australia, our industry is disadvantaged.



> You seem to be acting more out of emotion than any logic.



And perhaps your views might be somewhat coloured by your political bias?


----------



## moXJO

> New sexism row looming after Abbott's comments on Government's ‘inexperience' with kids



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/coalition-may-support-wayne-swans-budget-cutss-ays-tony-abbott/story-e6frf7jo-1226501248569


What??
 Since when is this sexist. Seems labor will try and run with this (will be a marathon till election time). I'm not sure Abbott backing down every time she uses this as a weapon is wise either.


----------



## drsmith

> budget-cutss-ays-tony-abbott/story-e6frf7jo-1226501248569"]http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/coalition-may-support-wayne-swans-budget-cutss-ays-tony-abbott/story-e6frf7jo-1226501248569[/URL]



Oh God Tony!

Let it go.

This is one where I agree with Labor, infact the baby bonus should be done away with alltogether, although I do question their underlying motivation for the move. 

The baby bonus itself was one of Howard's sillier ideas.


----------



## drsmith

One of the more interesting changes from the MYEFO is the change from 3-monthly to monthly payment of company tax. In the year in which it takes effect, a compant will effectively be paying 14 months tax in 12. 

This effectively raises the corporate tax rate from 30% to 35% for one year. 

It will be interesting to see what that does for business confidence.


----------



## white_goodman

drsmith said:


> Oh God Tony!
> 
> Let it go.
> 
> This is one where I agree with Labor, infact the baby bonus should be done away with alltogether, although I do question their underlying motivation for the move.
> 
> The baby bonus itself was one of Howard's sillier ideas.




agreed, there should be no incentive on personal behaviours, including maternity leave programs that basically treat stay at home mums as second class women. The politcal reality is that it should be reduced gradually to nothing. Labour once again doing the right thing for 'wrong' reasons, which I guess I cant be too upset about


----------



## MrBurns

white_goodman said:


> agreed, there should be no incentive on personal behaviours, including maternity leave programs that basically treat stay at home mums as second class women. The politcal reality is that it should be reduced gradually to nothing. Labour once again doing the right thing for 'wrong' reasons, which I guess I cant be too upset about




It's a hard one, the point is if you cant afford a baby dont have one but now it's here how do you roll it back ?

Good thing is that Gillard is so insensitive that she can take the rap for this part of it, wont get her many votes as it's obviously a misogynist move against women


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> , wont get her many votes as it's obviously a misogynist move against women




Abbott better duck for cover once he backs it


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Abbott better duck for cover once he backs it



It looks like the opposition will jump up and down a bit, but will allow through most, if not all the measures.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...in-budget-update/story-fn59niix-1226501364162

The interesting one will be their ultimate response to the scaling back of the private health insurance rebate.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Oh God Tony!
> 
> Let it go.
> 
> This is one where I agree with Labor, infact the baby bonus should be done away with alltogether, although I do question their underlying motivation for the move.
> 
> The baby bonus itself was one of Howard's sillier ideas.



+1.  There was a woman babbling on in "PM" last night about how upset she was that the baby bonus had been trimmed.  She whined that it had allowed them to have "some little extras" for their three children, but now that it wouldn't be the full $5000, they might not be able to afford the fourth!

It should never have been introduced.  It encouraged all the wrong people to have babies for the wrong reasons.
(that's undoubtedly a hugely politically incorrect statement).


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> It should never have been introduced.  It encouraged all the wrong people to have babies for the wrong reasons.
> (that's undoubtedly a hugely politically incorrect statement).




If they chopped the bonus for the first child it would cut out most of that.


----------



## Ves

sptrawler said:


> Well that must be the reason China and India have bought the only two coal mines in W.A.
> Apparently they think there is an advantage in owning cheap energy and yes, I'm sure they will put a tax on it to make it more expensive for themselves. What a hoot LOL,LOL,LOL



India actually already has a carbon tax (price) in place, first put in place in July 2010.  They have campaigned that such a tax should be implemented world wide.  Proceeds are used for clean energy research  (rather than wealth re-distribution like in Australia).  It's a fairly good model compared to our tax.  



> Also I'm sure the coal exports will triple over the next decade, also I'm sure India and China will own the mines.LOL,LOL,LOL
> Put your head in the sand while the sun is shinning, when it gets cold and you pull your head out, it will be different.



I don't disagree with this by the way.  Our country has a long history of selling itself for the benefit of others, short-sighted governments have always encouraged it.   I think this is a different issue than the one we are discussing though!


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> And perhaps your views might be somewhat coloured by your political bias?




I do not know what you mean by my own political bias, you would have to explain that.

My main goal in posting was to attempt to provide some balance to the conversation, as I felt it was very, very one-sided.   I guess I failed miserably in that respect.  Reflecting on this fact, I won't bother you guys and girls any further at this stage. Carry on.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> India actually already has a carbon tax (price) in place, first put in place in July 2010.  They have campaigned that such a tax should be implemented world wide.  Proceeds are used for clean energy research  (rather than wealth re-distribution like in Australia).  It's a fairly good model compared to our tax.





> On July 1, 2010 India introduced a nationwide carbon tax of 50 rupees per metric tonne ($1.07/t) of coal both produced and imported into India.



This is just apparently on coal and on present exchange rates is less than $1 compared to Australia's $23.
A gesture at most.


----------



## Calliope

How dare that upstart Abbott infer that our Virgin PM has no experience with children.:behead:


----------



## moXJO

Ves said:


> Proceeds are used for clean energy research  (rather than wealth re-distribution like in Australia).  It's a fairly good model compared to our tax.
> 
> !




I would support the tax if the money stayed in this country and was used in this way instead of just being another money pit for finance institutes. In its current form the carbon tax is not being used in the best interests of this country.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> How dare that upstart Abbott infer that our Virgin PM has no experience with children.:behead:
> 
> View attachment 49438



Looking at that, I can understand why head of tht household Bob Brown walked out.


----------



## noco

noco said:


> I well aware it would not be her decision, but she is the Governor General after all and would have been sent there to impress those African countries with lots of incentuive just to get the UN vote.
> 
> Many well spent???????????????





Yes, and here is the cost of the Govenor Generals little trip to Africa to buy their vote for a seat on the UN.

Can anyone believe this woman has a staff of 85; 30 of whom have quit in the past 12 months.

Upon recommendations of this Green/Labor Government, the Queen has extended her term for another two years. Is the Labor Party hanging on to her in case the Coalition wins the election in 2013. Perhaps Labor might be looking for her to sack the Coalition if there is a word put out of place like "misogyny".LOL. 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/money/the-real-cost-of-rudds-un-desire/story-e6frezc0-1225791860611


----------



## Miss Hale

Calliope said:


> How dare that upstart Abbott infer that our Virgin PM has no experience with children.:behead:
> 
> View attachment 49438




Love how Wilkie is pictured spitting the dummy


----------



## Julia

Well, despite the amusement, Morgan Polls have Labor actually ahead:


> NEWS : Morgan Poll :
> 
> ALP (50.5%) LEADS L-NP (49.5%) – FIRST TIME SINCE JANUARY 2012
> 
> Finding No. 4834 - This face-to-face Morgan Poll on Federal voting intention was conducted over the last two weekends, October 13/14 & 20/21, 2012 with an Australia-wide cross-section of 1,709 Australian electors aged 18+, of all electors surveyed a low 3.5% (up 0.5%) did not name a party. Face-to-face polling is more accurate than telephone polling due to the higher response rate achieved compared to other forms of polling including telephone polling and Internet polling.: October 22, 2012
> 
> In mid October support for the ALP is 50.5% (up 2.5%) cf. L-NP 49.5% (down 2.5%) on a two-party preferred basis according to the latest face-to-face Morgan Poll conducted over the last two weekends, October 13/14 & 20/21, 2012.
> 
> Today’s face-to-face Morgan Poll shows the L-NP primary vote is 38.5% (down 4.5% in 2 weeks) ahead of the ALP 37.5% (up 0.5%). Among the minor parties Greens support is up sharply by 2% to 12.5% and Independents/ Others up 2% to 11.5%.




Robert Gottliebsen is suggesting the government has six months to go to an election for some very interesting reasons he sets out here:
http://www.businessspectator.com.au...ent=121986&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary


----------



## Logique

Poor fella Tasmania. Other states, you're next.  Only so many baristas and tour guides that a state can use. 

Think about this as you decide whether to patronize the following businesses, owned by Kathmandu founder and Tasmanian resident Jan Cameron: Retail Adventures - the operating company behind *Go-Lo, Sam's Warehouse, Crazy Clark's and Chickenfeed.*



> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/bus...oses-stores-20121023-283db.html#ixzz2AADRnuld
> 
> ..A recent boardroom exodus has left her [Jan Cameron] as the sole director..


----------



## MrBurns

Carbon Tax, what it reeally means.

[video]http://vidcall.com/index.php/videos/show/4064[/video]


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> Well, despite the amusement, Morgan Polls have Labor actually ahead:
> 
> 
> Robert Gottliebsen is suggesting the government has six months to go to an election for some very interesting reasons he sets out here:
> http://www.businessspectator.com.au...ent=121986&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary




Betting odds are still safely in liberals favor


----------



## sails

moXJO said:


> Betting odds are still safely in liberals favor




And shown by  the last two state elections.

The polls were inaccurate on both of them - NT was predicted to be a close result and yet the libs won easily.  ACT was predicted as a comfortable labor win - the result is a hung parliament with a 7.4% swing to the libs.


http://www.abc.net.au/elections/act/2012/

http://www.abc.net.au/elections/nt/2012/


It seems that the polls are no longer reflecting reality.


----------



## Miss Hale

Logique said:


> Poor fella Tasmania. Other states, you're next.  Only so many baristas and tour guides that a state can use.
> 
> Think about this as you decide whether to patronize the following businesses, owned by Kathmandu founder and Tasmanian resident Jan Cameron: Retail Adventures - the operating company behind *Go-Lo, Sam's Warehouse, Crazy Clark's and Chickenfeed.*




And I'll bet Jan Cameron would be one of those who would say Gina Rhinehart has too much power.


----------



## sptrawler

Well watching the Thomson,Labor response tonight. I would have to say it is becomming a bit like the Lance Armstrong fiasco.
So best of luck with that. The truth comes out eventually. LOL,LOL,LOL


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Well watching the Thomson,Labor response tonight. I would have to say it is becomming a bit like the Lance Armstrong fiasco.
> So best of luck with that. The truth comes out eventually. LOL,LOL,LOL




I hope they put him in a cell with thugs who have been following this fiasco.
Thugs that understand that their kids get a little less because this worm gets paid by the taxpayer.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Robert Gottliebsen is suggesting the government has six months to go to an election for some very interesting reasons he sets out here:
> http://www.businessspectator.com.au...ent=121986&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary



Their new mining tax doesn't appear to be raising the fortunes the government had hoped.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-blow-to-revenue/story-fn59nsif-1226502734885


----------



## Knobby22

That's what you get by letting the miners design the tax. What a farce!


----------



## Logique

Logique said:


> In case of emergency, break glass, read message.
> Message: say attacks are gender based.
> What's the excuse with Craig Thomson. Brendan Nelson. Peter Slipper.



22nd August, quoting myself if I do say so.  

Listen, I'm happy to entertain any and all critiques of Tony Abbott, he's a work in progress, how stupid is his maternity leave proposal, the more so in the face of a galloping national debt.

But TA does not deserve to be smeared as a woman-hater.  I'd take him over the oleaginous, warmist-loved Wentworth any day.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> But TA does not deserve to be smeared as a woman-hater.  I'd take him over the oleaginous, warmist-loved Wentworth any day.



Of course TA is not a hater of women.  He is, however, very, very conservative in some of his views about women, or at least has been in the past.  This is in contrast to the liberal, 'progressive' Turnbull whose philosophy seems more aligned with the Greens than any other party.

At this stage, though, isn't it coming down to who is the most politically skilled?  Labor's McTernan - the adviser imported from the UK - seems to have put in place a strategy which is working well in terms of destroying TA.
Mr Abbott seems clueless about how to respond to this, is continuing to make silly remarks (e.g. the government don't have enough experience about children!), while Joe Hockey as shadow Treasurer is less than reassuring.

Mr Turnbull gave a polished performance on "7.30" last night on the NBN.


----------



## noco

Abbott has plenty of ammo against Gillard so why does he not use it to full advantage?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-blow-to-revenue/story-fn59nsif-1226502734885
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-with-kevin-rudd/story-e6frg6xf-1226502736782
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...an-is-unworkable/story-fn59nsif-1226502733182


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Abbott has plenty of ammo against Gillard so why does he not use it to full advantage?



With the budget position getting worse by the day and other Labor woes, perhaps he's giving Julia Gillard a little extra rope from which to call an early election.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> With the budget position getting worse by the day and other Labor woes, perhaps he's giving Julia Gillard a little extra rope from which to call an early election.




Yes Doc, I heard or read an article yesterday whereby there could be an election s early as March. Gillard and Swan seem to know things are going to get worse mid 2013 and with her on a roll with bashing of Abbott, she may think she has the advantage.

The other problem for Gillard maybe Criag Thomson and Peter Slipper.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Yes Doc, I heard or read an article yesterday whereby there could be an election s early as March. Gillard and Swan seem to know things are going to get worse mid 2013 and with her on a roll with bashing of Abbott, she may think she has the advantage.
> 
> The other problem for Gillard maybe Criag Thomson and Peter Slipper.



I'm wondering if she might pay the GG a visit this weekend before Parliament resumes.

If she doesn't, TA will want to lift his game, otherwise it will be him spending Christmas off his political high perch.


----------



## noco

There seems to be a lot of bitterness going on between Giillard and Maxine McKew.

Bits and pieces are being leaked before the launch of her book on Monday,

Rudd denies being behind it???????



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...mined-rudd-mckew/story-fndo20i0-1226503541742


----------



## dutchie

The Labor Government has spending money down pat (does not matter on what - just spend it).

However its having a bit of a problem gathering money.

Zero return for mining tax
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-for-mining-tax/story-fn59nqgy-1226502812805

 Wish I could get the same deal on my income tax!


----------



## noco

dutchie said:


> The Labor Government has spending money down pat (does not matter on what - just spend it).
> 
> However its having a bit of a problem gathering money.
> 
> Zero return for mining tax
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-for-mining-tax/story-fn59nqgy-1226502812805
> 
> Wish I could get the same deal on my income tax!




dutchie, it is historical of all Green/Labor governments whether Federal, State or Local. They just have no idea how to manage money.

They are just starting to find out money does not grow on trees!!!!!!!


----------



## DB008

A great way to scare off foreign investment. Why bother building/investing/expanding a mine here, when you can go to another country with more favourable conditions....


----------



## noco

noco said:


> There seems to be a lot of bitterness going on between Giillard and Maxine McKew.
> 
> Bits and pieces are being leaked before the launch of her book on Monday,
> 
> Rudd denies being behind it???????
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...mined-rudd-mckew/story-fndo20i0-1226503541742




How much more ruthless can Gillard get? Her disposal of Kevin Rudd was planned months ahead.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...o-watch-his-back/story-fn59niix-1226503509064


----------



## bunyip

noco said:


> How much more ruthless can Gillard get? Her disposal of Kevin Rudd was planned months ahead.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...o-watch-his-back/story-fn59niix-1226503509064







_LABOR frontbencher Anthony Albanese warned Kevin Rudd to "watch his back" in May 2010, after realising six months earlier that Julia Gillard was going for the leadership when she intervened in a NSW preselection brawl.

In Tales from the Political Trenches, former Labor MP Maxine McKew says both Mr Albanese and Mr Rudd's chief of staff Alister Jordan came to the conclusion the night before the leadership changed that "Rudd was the victim of an ambush that had been months in the planning"._

It's more than likely true...I recall that Albanese backed Rudd in his leadership challege earlier this year.


----------



## noco

noco said:


> How much more ruthless can Gillard get? Her disposal of Kevin Rudd was planned months ahead.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...o-watch-his-back/story-fn59niix-1226503509064




Gillard has denied Maxine McKew's claims of plotting to over throw Rudd weeks before, stating she only had made up her mind the day before. How could she have gathered the numbers to support just 24 hours before the 23rd June 2010.

She has lied on several occassions before and she has lied again. She is a compulsive liar and she just can't help herself.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...mined-rudd-mckew/story-e6freono-1226503530164


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Of course TA is not a hater of women.  He is, however, very, very conservative in some of his views about women, or at least has been in the past.  This is in contrast to the liberal, 'progressive' Turnbull whose philosophy seems more aligned with the Greens than any other party.
> 
> At this stage, though, isn't it coming down to who is the most politically skilled?  Labor's McTernan - the adviser imported from the UK - seems to have put in place a strategy which is working well in terms of destroying TA.
> Mr Abbott seems clueless about how to respond to this, is continuing to make silly remarks (e.g. the government don't have enough experience about children!), while Joe Hockey as shadow Treasurer is less than reassuring.




You are spot on Julia, Abbott should offer the U.K advisor twice as much money as Labor are paying.
Labor are all singing off the same song sheet, even if it's bad news they sing its praise.
Tony is certainly struggling with a response, really the Gillard spray shouldn't have been that difficult to negate.
However the "experience with children comment" looked clumsy and limp.
As you say, they will need to come up with a new stratergy.


----------



## sails

The left are clearly trying (and succeeding) to deflect attention from Gillard's incompetence to personal attacks on the opposition leader.  Even if the coalition changed leaders, I suspect labor would continue with similar vitriolic personal attacks.  They could have a field day with Turnbull and the Gretch affair.  They would attempt to severely discredit any leader.

Perhaps Julie Bishop should take over so she can slam the balls back into Gillard's court without the risk of silly misogyny accusations.  It is clearly difficult for any male opposition leader to defend himself (let alone attack) because the sexist thing would re-emerge with vengeance.

And now it's Abbott's fault that Thomson's house was raided.  Did Abbott also steal his union credit card and use it for prostitutes?  How absolutely stupid to they think Aussie voters are?  

Oh that's right, clerarly there are some gullible ones who are falling for this nasty smear tactic against another human being and are not standing up against the bully behaviour.  If we get another three years of this spending government allowing thousands of boat arrivals, it will be our own fault if we find ourselves subjected to sharia law and debt even more out of control.  I can't believe the stupidity.



> Gerard Henderson notes yet another example of The Age turning a Labor disgrace into a slap at Tony Abbott:




Read more: Thomson raided. Abbott blamed


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> If we get another three years of this spending government allowing thousands of boat arrivals, it will be our own fault if we find ourselves subjected to sharia law and debt even more out of control.  I can't believe the stupidity.



We won't get another three years of this government, unless the upcoming Coalition government is no better.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> We won't get another three years of this government, unless the upcoming Coalition government is no better.





I just can't believe that some people are falling in line behind the piper.  This government has not improved it's performance and has actually lowered the standards by the vitriolic accusations to the leader of the opposition.  Defies belief that Gillard can swing her line on the same day in parliament that she supported Slipper.

In any case, this is not a popularity contest.  Sadly, voters are being sucked in to believe it is.

I don't care who the leader of the opposition is - I just think the gutter tactics being used to divert attention from the real issues stink to high heaven.

The piper will one day need to be paid and it's likely our kids and grandkids that are going to pay the price and they will curse the stupidity of this generation for allowing themselves to be fooled.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I just can't believe that some people are falling in line behind the piper.



Alternatively, people are simply recognising that Mr Abbott's performance is woefully lacking.


> This government has not improved its performance and has actually lowered the standards by the vitriolic accusations to the leader of the opposition.



At the same time, however much the electorate wants to be rid of the government, it needs a valid reason to vote for the opposition.  There is simply little evidence of this at present.
It seems that Tony Abbott gained so well on the basis of his dire predictions about the carbon tax.  But now that people are perceiving this to be less than catastrophic, he has little else to offer.
He also looks pretty silly talking about 'big new taxes' when he plans to tax business for his ridiculously generous maternity scheme.  



> In any case, this is not a popularity contest.  Sadly, voters are being sucked in to believe it is.



Of course it's a popularity contest.  Why else would both sides be directing all their efforts into discrediting the competition?  Why else would Labor have imported McTernan from the UK to direct their spin?
And if that were to be wrong, and in fact voters were sitting down and seriously only considering the policies offered by each side (ignoring the awkwardness and silly comments of both Abbott and Hockey), they'd be pretty hard pressed to come up with anything serious from the Libs.  Even the "turn back the boats" is looking pretty hollow in the face of Indonesia's reluctance to co-operate with this.  Why should they?  They don't want asylum seekers adding to their already considerable problems in Indonesia.  The more who leave for Australia, the better for Indonesia, surely?



> I don't care who the leader of the opposition is - I just think the gutter tactics being used to divert attention from the real issues stink to high heaven.



Absolutely true.  But it's working and if it continues to work amongst enough people, and if Tony Abbott continues to fail to come up with a counter strategy, it could well see us with another four years of Labor.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...Absolutely true.  But it's working and if it continues to work amongst enough people, and if Tony Abbott continues to fail to come up with a counter strategy, it could well see us with another four years of Labor.





So what sort of counter strategy would you suggest?


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> So what sort of counter strategy would you suggest?




Not up to me to suggest anything.  I'm not contending the position of Prime Minister of Australia.

However, a decent start might be not continually offering Labor material to work with, such as the stupid comment about the government dying of shame a couple of weeks ago, and then this week equally stupid comment about the government being inexperienced about children.

He seems determined to stab himself in the foot by so gifting Gillard et al with such ammunition for them to jump on, achieving absolutely nothing positive for either himself or his party in the process.

Just not the sort of lack of political nous you'd expect from someone with Mr Abbott's years of experience.

The polls show you that much of the electorate seems to share my despair about Mr Abbott.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Not up to me to suggest anything.  I'm not contending the position of Prime Minister of Australia.
> 
> However, a decent start might be not continually offering Labor material to work with, such as the stupid comment about the government dying of shame a couple of weeks ago, and then this week equally stupid comment about the government being inexperienced about children.
> 
> He seems determined to stab himself in the foot by so gifting Gillard et al with such ammunition for them to jump on, achieving absolutely nothing positive for either himself or his party in the process.
> 
> Just not the sort of lack of political nous you'd expect from someone with Mr Abbott's years of experience.
> 
> The polls show you that much of the electorate seems to share my despair about Mr Abbott.




So, he's made two mistakes.  How many has Gillard made?  Too numerous to count, imo.  But she has learned if she goes with the bully tactics, she can get away with anything.

Usually the best way to counter a bully is not to give him/her satisfaction.  Sadly, the Aussie public and certain media are giving Gillard satisfaction and rewarding her bully behaviour.  Sad really.

She has Abbott boxed in - anything he says she sprouts that it is misogynist or sexist (whether it actually is doesn't seem to matter).  

It would seem the best strategy would be to put Julie Bishop into the top job to take on Gillard - but then McTernan would undoubtedly find some way of making the public hate her too.

I can only hope voters see through these very nasty tactics.  Politics should be about policies and not about a popularity contest.  John Howard was not the most popular and yet he was a long serving PM. Gillard is turning it into a popularity contest because she knows she has failed on policy and competence.  Much easier to throw mud than perform well.


----------



## Julia

I don't disagree with any of that, sails.  But the political reality is that if the Libs want to win the election, they have to devise more successful tactics than they are presently employing.

And it's hardly right to say that mr Abbott has made only two mistakes:  I just offered two recent examples.

I quite like the idea of Julie Bishop.  With her elegance, she would be a fine contrast to Ms Gillard's shrewish demeanour.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Alternatively, people are simply recognising that Mr Abbott's performance is woefully lacking.
> 
> At the same time, however much the electorate wants to be rid of the government, it needs a valid reason to vote for the opposition.  There is simply little evidence of this at present.
> It seems that Tony Abbott gained so well on the basis of his dire predictions about the carbon tax.  But now that people are perceiving this to be less than catastrophic, he has little else to offer.
> He also looks pretty silly talking about 'big new taxes' when he plans to tax business for his ridiculously generous maternity scheme.
> 
> 
> Of course it's a popularity contest.  Why else would both sides be directing all their efforts into discrediting the competition?  Why else would Labor have imported McTernan from the UK to direct their spin?
> And if that were to be wrong, and in fact voters were sitting down and seriously only considering the policies offered by each side (ignoring the awkwardness and silly comments of both Abbott and Hockey), they'd be pretty hard pressed to come up with anything serious from the Libs.  Even the "turn back the boats" is looking pretty hollow in the face of Indonesia's reluctance to co-operate with this.  Why should they?  They don't want asylum seekers adding to their already considerable problems in Indonesia.  The more who leave for Australia, the better for Indonesia, surely?
> 
> 
> Absolutely true.  But it's working and if it continues to work amongst enough people, and if Tony Abbott continues to fail to come up with a counter strategy, it could well see us with another four years of Labor.




Geez Julia, you are starting to sound like Gillard."ABBOTT, ABBOTT, ABBOTT"

I believe you are deluding yourself if you think Abbott could possibly be worse than the lying Gillard. I would say the electorate has plenty of reason to vote for Abbott when you consider what this Green/Labor socialst left wing government has done to this country or do you have a short memory? The effects of the carbon is still to come as Gillard and Swan increase the price each year. 

I trust you have read my previous posts today with links relating to Maxine Mc Kew's comments about Miss Gillard.


----------



## bellenuit

sails said:


> So what sort of counter strategy would you suggest?




Maybe attack is the best form of defence.

In the latter of Julia's examples, where he said the government was inexperience in having children, instead of half apologising as he did, perhaps he should have just said he was talking about inexperience in relation to formulating policy concerning children and then attack by saying how the government was constantly trying to evade criticisms of their incompetency by trying to hide behind manufactured offence. Call her out on the issue and say where she is wrong and have some ammunition at hand such as comparable comments from Labor MPs, which I am sure could be found. 

If he were to do that every time she played the sexist or personal attack ("on her") card, people might begin to notice how Gillard operates. 

BTW, the problem with this particular example is that Gillard's decision to cut support for 2nd and subsequent children is probably correct.


----------



## DB008

Julia said:


> I quite like the idea of Julie Bishop.  With her elegance, she would be a fine contrast to Ms Gillard's shrewish demeanour.




I agree. Julie Bishop was on the 7:30 Report a few weeks ago and handled the questions skillfully. I really would like to see more of her.


----------



## dutchie

bellenuit said:


> Maybe attack is the best form of defence.
> 
> In the latter of Julia's examples, where he said the government was inexperience in having children, instead of half apologising as he did, perhaps he should have just said he was talking about inexperience in relation to formulating policy concerning children and then attack by saying how the government was constantly trying to evade criticisms of their incompetency by trying to hide behind manufactured offence. Call her out on the issue and say where she is wrong and have some ammunition at hand such as comparable comments from Labor MPs, which I am sure could be found.
> 
> If he were to do that every time she played the sexist or personal attack ("on her") card, people might begin to notice how Gillard operates.
> 
> BTW, the problem with this particular example is that Gillard's decision to cut support for 2nd and subsequent children is probably correct.





Not a bad idea bellenuit.

The only problem Abbott has is that he can't complain too much because he will probably have to vote for those spending reductions.
He would need to do the same or similar to "balance the books" when he gets into power.


----------



## Boggo

keepin it real


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> Geez Julia, you are starting to sound like Gillard."ABBOTT, ABBOTT, ABBOTT"



You seem to be under the impression that I'm obliged to like Mr Abbott and approve of everything he does and says.  Just ain't so.  I have always been a swinging voter,  not a confirmed conservative as you appear to be.

Being disappointed in his performance does not imply that I am happy with Gillard et al.  On the contrary.
I'm sure I've said many times that I can't think of a time when the political landscape was as devoid of talent.



> I believe you are deluding yourself if you think Abbott could possibly be worse than the lying Gillard.



  Nowhere have I said that.  I have, however, pointed to the political reality that unless the Libs lift their game the trend toward Labor that's showing at present could even result in them winning the next term.


bellenuit said:


> Maybe attack is the best form of defence.
> 
> In the latter of Julia's examples, where he said the government was inexperience in having children, instead of half apologising as he did, perhaps he should have just said he was talking about inexperience in relation to formulating policy concerning children and then attack by saying how the government was constantly trying to evade criticisms of their incompetency by trying to hide behind manufactured offence. Call her out on the issue and say where she is wrong and have some ammunition at hand such as comparable comments from Labor MPs, which I am sure could be found.



Yes, that's a really good example of how he could better manage the situation instead of looking like a stunned mullet.


----------



## DocK

Julia said:


> I quite like the idea of Julie Bishop.  With her elegance, she would be a fine contrast to Ms Gillard's shrewish demeanour.






DB008 said:


> I agree. Julie Bishop was on the 7:30 Report a few weeks ago and handled the questions skillfully. I really would like to see more of her.




Only if she never, ever, ever appears again on the Chaser boy's show looking like an idiot as she did last year - made it hard for me to take her seriously for quite a while.

It has often occurred to me that either Bishop or Turnbull would be quicker off the cuff for a witty comeback or putdown when required than Abbott.  He does seem to suffer from an inability to form a coherent sentence at times - gives one the impression that he maybe relies far too heavily on his script writers.

I was surprised at how much I enjoyed watching Amanda  Vanstone on Q&A this week - made me wish she was still a pollie.


----------



## noco

What a tangled web these pollies on both sides weave.

Who would want to be a politician?


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ld-rather-forget/story-e6frerc6-1226504204747
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...d-the-mining-tax/story-fnb53bt1-1226503956361


----------



## noco

Could we be so lucky as to see an election before Easter 2013 or even before Xmas 2012

It certainly appears that way given that Gillard is pondering on how Labor will be affected if the election was held in October 2013.

The economy, the budget, the boat people record and the MRPT which has not produced one cent.
Labor may be considering a loss with a reduction in numbers may be better than an out right thumping with enough Labor members left to fill a Tarago like what happened in Queensland.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...saving-the-brand/story-e6frg6zo-1226504020862


----------



## moXJO

noco said:


> Could we be so lucky as to see an election before Easter 2013 or even before Xmas 2012
> 
> It certainly appears that way given that Gillard is pondering on how Labor will be affected if the election was held in October 2013.
> 
> The economy, the budget, the boat people record and the MRPT which has not produced one cent.
> Labor may be considering a loss with a reduction in numbers may be better than an out right thumping with enough Labor members left to fill a Tarago like what happened in Queensland.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...saving-the-brand/story-e6frg6zo-1226504020862




It will be early next year imo. They dont want to get to close to the end of the financial year and the mess that is the carbon tax to be found out. Not to mention the budget being discovered to be a steaming pile.


----------



## sptrawler

Well at the moment the labor party look like a well oiled machine. They are well versed and well prepared when they meet the press.
One thing for sure, they will call an election when they feel they have the best chance of winning.
Abbott needs to settle down and slowly start to turn the focus onto how the coalition could do it better as a government.
The problem with that is, if it is a good idea the government will adopt it.
If it is a bad idea they will bag it.
Also the government has the resources of treasury to cost any coalition idea.
Like Julia said, unless Abbott can come up with a game plan to counter the pommie spin doctor, it is going to be hard work.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Well at the moment the labor party look like a well oiled machine.



That's not oil lubricating Labor's machinery, it's their own blood.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...nal-flareup-20121027-28c4d.html#ixzz2ATnP26Bw


----------



## noco

moXJO said:


> It will be early next year imo. They dont want to get to close to the end of the financial year and the mess that is the carbon tax to be found out. Not to mention the budget being discovered to be a steaming pile.




Yes, I would say you would be close to the mark in the new year.

Although some ASF members believe there is no change in the cost of living due to the carbon dioxide tax, I believe we are yet to feel the full brunt as costs are passed on to the consumer and of course it will increase agian next year.


----------



## Knobby22

moXJO said:


> It will be early next year imo. They dont want to get to close to the end of the financial year and the mess that is the carbon tax to be found out. Not to mention the budget being discovered to be a steaming pile.




No. It will be just after the end of the financial year so they can claim they balanced the budget during the campaign.
Regarding Vanstone, Howard knew he had quality there.
I am sure there is some top talent in the Libs but they haven't been given a chance under Tony. He really has only promoted the old guard. A further weakness imo.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Yes, I would say you would be close to the mark in the new year.
> 
> Although some ASF members believe there is no change in the cost of living due to the carbon dioxide tax, I believe we are yet to feel the full brunt as costs are passed on to the consumer and of course it will increase agian next year.




There will be a bump when it goes onto transport companies diesel. I think that happens in 2014.


----------



## drsmith

Knobby22 said:


> No. It will be just after the end of the financial year so they can claim they balanced the budget during the campaign.



If it's before, that will be the smell of too much heat having been applied to their book cooking.


----------



## Ves

noco said:


> Although some ASF members believe there is no change in the cost of living due to the carbon dioxide tax, I believe we are yet to feel the full brunt as costs are passed on to the consumer and of course it will increase agian next year.



Can you explain to me how much it will affect the bottom line of some of the bigger companies?   What sort of increases in costs of their tax payments will they need to pass on as a % of their revenues? I can't find this sort of thing any where - but you must have to make such claims.  Thanks for the help!


----------



## drsmith

Ves said:


> Can you explain to me how much it will affect the bottom line of some of the bigger companies?   What sort of increases in costs of their tax payments will they need to pass on as a % of their revenues? I can't find this sort of thing any where - but you must have to make such claims.  Thanks for the help!




A quick search revealed this,

http://www.une.edu.au/business-school/working-papers/economics/econwp11-2.pdf


----------



## Julia

DocK said:


> Only if she never, ever, ever appears again on the Chaser boy's show looking like an idiot as she did last year - made it hard for me to take her seriously for quite a while.



I must have missed that.  What did she do?



> I was surprised at how much I enjoyed watching Amanda  Vanstone on Q&A this week - made me wish she was still a pollie.






Knobby22 said:


> Regarding Vanstone, Howard knew he had quality there.
> I am sure there is some top talent in the Libs but they haven't been given a chance under Tony. He really has only promoted the old guard. A further weakness imo.



Amanda Vanstone was that rare breed of politician who said what she thought.  She seemed to have little regard for spin on either side.
There was a great interview with her and Andrew Denton on "Enough Rope" where her sense of humour and ready wit came out in spades.  (She's also a dog lover which gives her added credence in my book.)

Agree, Knobby, about Abbott not making the best use of the available talent.  He seems determined to present as an echo of the Howard government.  Unfortunately the best people of that era are no longer with the Libs.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> A quick search revealed this,
> 
> http://www.une.edu.au/business-school/working-papers/economics/econwp11-2.pdf




Thx Doc. That is a pretty comprehensive article, however given the differentiation of the amount of power used by various manufacturing industries, the increased cost of a particular article in percentage terms would be difficult to ascertain.

Then there is the need to increase the price of a retail item due to transport costs and the increase cost of say lighting a retail shop.

I still say we are yet to feel the full affect of this carbon dioxide tax. It was certainly wrong for Wayne Swan to sprout on the 2nd of july that a loaf of bread had not risen in price and look the sky has not fallen in. But of course that is the mentality of Swan.


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> A quick search revealed this,
> 
> http://www.une.edu.au/business-school/working-papers/economics/econwp11-2.pdf



Am I correct in saying that the conclusion that this report reaches is that the carbon tax will have a minimal or neglible impact on the economy in the first few years?

It is a pretty technical report in any sense and I admit some of it is beyond my simpleton reckoning.  Any other comments?

32 pages was pretty heavy reading for a Saturday night, but I got through it in one piece. 

Thanks for the link.


----------



## drsmith

Ves said:


> 32 pages was pretty heavy reading for a Saturday night, but I got through it in one piece.



You did better than me on a Saturday night. 

I glanced at some of it quickly, but haven't read it.

I was really just pointing out that their's information around.


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> You did better than me.
> 
> I glanced at some of it quickly, but haven't read it.
> 
> I was really just pointing out that their's information around.



It's actually really hard to find much _decent information_, in my experience.   I guess that's what happens when you introduce a tax that is very hard for anyone that isn't a specialised taxation analyst to be able to comprehend at anything beyond a basic level.  This tax fails the one of the principles of a good tax system - understandability!

Oh well, I have had a go at researching it.


----------



## drsmith

Ves said:


> This tax fails the one of the principles of a good tax system - understandability!



As does many of our taxes, but that's another rant for another day.

An exception to this though is the MRRT. At face value, it's easy to understand. It doesn't raise anything.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> It's actually really hard to find much _decent information_, in my experience.   I guess that's what happens when you introduce a tax that is very hard for anyone that isn't a specialised taxation analyst to be able to comprehend at anything beyond a basic level.  This tax fails the one of the principles of a good tax system - understandability!
> 
> Oh well, I have had a go at researching it.




Actually as a tax per sae, I'm not against it. It will encourage people to use electricity more frugally.
The problem with it is the impost it causes on manufacturing. 
I know they are supposedly being compensated, but how do the energy dependant manufacturing companies get finance?
Why wouldn't an intellegent government wait and enter into a global scheme. It is just dumb. 
It screams of an inferiority complex, from insecure people, screaming "look at me, look at me".
Just sad, very sad, at our expense.

This is underlined by the way they are wetting themselves about getting on the U.N security council.
Huge inferiority complex, no goals, no self esteme, no principals, just sad.


----------



## moXJO

Ves said:


> It's actually really hard to find much _decent information_, in my experience.   I guess that's what happens when you introduce a tax that is very hard for anyone that isn't a specialised taxation analyst to be able to comprehend at anything beyond a basic level.  This tax fails the one of the principles of a good tax system - understandability!
> 
> Oh well, I have had a go at researching it.




This is a major gripe with this govt, business is left in the dark with measures forced upon it with no real structure. Ber, solar and pink  batts were all this policy on the run and sent a lot of business to the wall. You need a lot of info to factor in your costs or you are just bumbling round in the dark waiting for the surprise. 

I noticed employers may soon be hit for money because employees are not given enough varied work. Here is the trend Im already seeing, big business paying 'go away' money as was the case in the 90's and small business reducing down to become sole traders.  
Business will not be kind to labor come election time.


----------



## drsmith

Maxine McKew with her book is doing her best to reopen old wounds.



> FOLLOWING the 2007 election I had always said that Julia [Gillard] would be the next Labor PM after myself.
> 
> I said that because I believed she would make a first-class prime minister following a period in office with engagement on the economic and national security agendas.
> 
> I had also told her and other cabinet and caucus colleagues that she would have my full support in achieving that ambition. I also said to her in early 2010 I had no intention of breaking the record book for being the longest-serving Labor prime minister and that my ambition was to have a seamless transition to her.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...litical-trenches/story-e6freuy9-1226504567414



> Former Labor leader Simon Crean declaring it was "a mistake" to dump Mr Rudd as leader but warning MPs "we can't change again".




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-leadership-coup/story-fndo317g-1226504567073


----------



## DB008

Anyone catch 'The Bolt Report' this morning (well, as far as l know, it was todays episode on Channel 10). Was interesting. Swan was picked apart by Costello and made to look like a world class idiot.


----------



## Miss Hale

DB008 said:


> Anyone catch 'The Bolt Report' this morning (well, as far as l know, it was todays episode on Channel 10). Was interesting. Swan was picked apart by Costello and made to look like a world class idiot.




Yes I saw it.  I also liked the comment from Judith Sloan when asked about Swan's 'savings' in the budget.  She suggested he might have to contact the Macquarie dictionary for a new definition of savings


----------



## DocK

Julia said:


> I must have missed that.  What did she do?




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national-old/liberal-mp-julie-bishop-perfects-alarming-death-stare-on-the-chasers-yes-we-canberra/story-fn5z3z83-1225898124855


----------



## Julia

Thanks, DocK.  Yes, I remember it now.


----------



## Knobby22

I don't hold much truck with Bolt but really there is no excuse for Labor not producing a surplus this year.

The fact they are over reliant on cutting defence spending and using smoke and mirrors does not serve them well. 
If they can't make the hard decisions, then they don't derserve to lead this country.


----------



## drsmith

Knobby22 said:


> I don't hold much truck with Bolt but really there is no excuse for Labor not producing a surplus this year.



A forecast on coal that won't help should it come to pass.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3620138.htm

Andrew Bolt on his show today also commented that Labor's asylum failures have cost $6bn. While cutting back on middle class welfare such as the baby bonus is good in isolation, redirecting money to even more grotesque waste and mismanagement is obviously not.


----------



## Calliope

The gift that keeps on giving. Swan would really be in a hole if Roxon's war on smokers succeeded.



> *In the 2011-12 fiscal year, tobacco excise poured $5.45 billion into the parched coffers of the federal government.*
> Where mining super-profits and the dollar-sensitive exporters of morally uncontroversial products have failed us, tax-wise, the gaspers just keep on giving and giving. This might give you the ghost of an idea why they remain legal, despite the government's otherwise settled mask of hostility towards the dried, cut and commercially packaged leaves of the plant known to the scientific world as Nicotiana tabacum.





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/socie...-dying-gasp-20121027-28c53.html#ixzz2AZPGEdnP


----------



## DB008

DB008 said:


> Anyone catch 'The Bolt Report' this morning (well, as far as l know, it was todays episode on Channel 10). Was interesting. Swan was picked apart by Costello and made to look like a world class idiot.




Channel 10 link


----------



## So_Cynical

DB008 said:


> Anyone catch 'The *Bolt* Report' this morning






Knobby22 said:


> I don't hold much truck with *Bolt* but really there is no excuse for Labor not producing a surplus this year.






drsmith said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3620138.htm
> 
> Andrew *Bolt* on his show today






DB008 said:


> Channel 10 link




 Are you guys insane?

After viewing anything Bolt related to will be in need of this site.

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> After viewing anything Bolt related to will be in need of this site.




Pardon, what did you say?


----------



## sails

So_Cynical said:


> Are you guys insane?
> 
> After viewing anything Bolt related to will be in need of this site.
> 
> http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?





Very funny...just as well that's in your opinion.

Bolt has a sizeable audience who will make up their own minds.

And no need to make a mockery of those who suffer depression either.


----------



## wayneL

sails said:


> Very funny...just as well that's in your opinion.
> 
> Bolt has a sizeable audience who will make up their own minds.
> 
> And no need to make a mockery of those who suffer depression either.




After all the carping about Abbotts die of shame comment, you would think the Labor Luvvies would avoid such tasteless comments.


----------



## DB008

So_Cynical said:


> Are you guys insane?




3 topics that Bolt mentioned yesterday and how the current Government has stuffed 'em up;

The Budget (and it's sad sorry state)
MRRT (not 1 cent collected. Money has already been spent from forecast)
Boats (still coming, $6 Billion cost so far)


Insane? 

No.
I would argue that people who agree with what Gillard & Co are doing and supporting them, are insane...


----------



## noirua

The Gillard Government's downer on the mining sector has proved to be timed to send a declining sector into crash mode. Even BHP have seen the light on this and are moving to West Africa where costs are lower and China are welcomed with open arms.
WEST Africa is set to take over from the Pilbara and the Gillard led actions look set to gradually bomb the Pilbara out of business.


----------



## bunyip

noirua said:


> The Gillard Government's downer on the mining sector has proved to be timed to send a declining sector into crash mode. Even BHP have seen the light on this and are moving to West Africa where costs are lower and China are welcomed with open arms.
> WEST Africa is set to take over from the Pilbara and the Gillard led actions look set to gradually bomb the Pilbara out of business.




Former QLD ALP treasurer Keith DeLacy was recently on TV condemning the decisions of the Gillard government in regard to the costs and difficulties they've imposed on our mining industry. Gillard, meanwhile, never one to listen to or learn from constructive criticism, continues on her merry way to killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

So Cynical mentions the word 'insane'. 
The truly insane people are those who will attempt to vote this moronic government back into power instead of recognising them as pathetically stupid and hopelessly incompetent, and getting rid of them.


----------



## noco

It is hard to fathom out where these polls are being taken, nevertheless it may be a ploy to encourage Gillard to go to an early election which in effect may favor the coaltion and back fire on Gillard. It may lead her into a false sense of security and entice her to do something more stupid than she has in the past.

News poll may be manipulating voters trend to make the coaltition look like under dogs and bring some simpathy back their way.

I just do not believe Gillard has tunred things around so fast in jus twi weeks with this misogyny crap.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...isogyny-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226504943610


----------



## Calliope

The Gillard "misogyny war" against Abbott is obviously working and is falling on receptive ears, so we can expect more of same.



> AFTER three weeks of hectic politicking dominated by a "gender war", the Gillard government has picked up voter support at the expense of the Coalition, putting the main parties dead even on a two-party-preferred basis.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...isogyny-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226504943610


----------



## moXJO

So_Cynical said:


> Are you guys insane?
> 
> After viewing anything Bolt related to will be in need of this site.
> 
> http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?



LOL 
Credit where its due.



noco said:


> I just do not believe Gillard has tunred things around so fast in jus twi weeks with this misogyny crap.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...isogyny-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226504943610




Labor has been out there pushing asia and India. And they have been making all the right noises. They just can't follow through on any policy without it stuffing up for some reason. Libs have performed very badly and its getting old. They have done a great job of discrediting the government considering the time period. But they are running on fumes at the moment with old tactics. Still a way to go yet, but they better utilise what they have effectively. I still think they need to shuffle hockey out. When  Abbott and the Hock are on tv they come across like dumb and dumber. I don't think the guy is leadership material just yet but they need to put Turnbull in a more prominent position to hold the votes.


----------



## sails

moXJO said:


> LOL
> Credit where its due.
> 
> 
> 
> Labor has been out there pushing asia and India. And they have been making all the right noises. They just can't follow through on any policy without it stuffing up for some reason. Libs have performed very badly and its getting old. They have done a great job of discrediting the government considering the time period. But they are running on fumes at the moment with old tactics. Still a way to go yet, but they better utilise what they have effectively. I still think they need to shuffle hockey out. When  Abbott and the Hock are on tv they come across like dumb and dumber. I don't think the guy is leadership material just yet but they need to put Turnbull in a more prominent position to hold the votes.





I think Turnbull would make a good treasurer IF he could be trusted to support his party instead of speaking out against them.

As I posted in the Abbott thread, Turnbull's history at leadership is dismal.  Abbott is still way ahead of him in both 2pp and preferred PM when comparing the current polls and the polls just before Turnbull was given the boot.

No wonder the left want Turnbull back to take the polls even lower for the libs.


----------



## Calliope

> *THE Gillard government will force the states to implement the key recommendation of its Asian white paper - the teaching of at least one Asian language in every school.
> *
> Labor's new Minister for the Asian Century, Craig Emerson, today rejected opposition criticism over the lack of funding attached to the blueprint, saying the government would boost funding for languages studies through its Gonski reforms.
> 
> *He said the states would have to supply the teachers needed to embark on the Asian languages blitz. *Those that refused would be denied education funding.




Teach Asian Languages? What a joke! Our Teachers can't even teach English.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...g-recommendation/story-fng5k1ek-1226505151332


----------



## Miss Hale

Calliope said:


> Teach Asian Languages? What a joke! Our Teachers can't even teach English.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...g-recommendation/story-fng5k1ek-1226505151332




Haven't we been here before?   I seem to remember Gillard banging on about teaching Asian languages at some point previously (in other words isn't this just another rehashed policy?).  I've no problem with people learning foreign languages but there is no way it's going to help us economically. The rest of the world is lapping up English like nobody's business so I don't think there is much to be gained from people here learning another language (which one?).  I wouldn't deter anyone but do we need to pour governement dollars into this in a big way? I learned two foreign languages at school and found them invaluable in what they taght me about English (both grammatically and in terms of vocabulary) but they have barely even been useful when travelling since people in those countries preferred to speak to me in English - I might as well have studied Latin and Ancient Greek!  Also, probably the most useful it could be argued would be Chinese.  Anyone tried to learn this?  I know several people who tried to learn Mandarin including those living and working in China and not only is it very difficult to learn but many people over there don't speak it anyway.  Remember even Kevin Rudd who is supposed to be fluent had trouble with it in a simple video tried to record  As for being able to read and write in it that is another matter altogether. In terms of effort spent for benefit I don't think it's really worth it.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Teach Asian Languages? What a joke! Our Teachers can't even teach English.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...g-recommendation/story-fng5k1ek-1226505151332





And many of our school kids can't even spell English.  One of my granddaughters is being made to learn Italian in Grade 7 (primary school) and yet she struggles with English grammar and spelling.  I would much rather she spent extra time in learning her own language rather than forcing her to learn something so useless.  She has working memory problems meaning it's difficult to get information from short term to long term memory.

They seem to think that kids who learn a second language do better at school generally.  However, I think it is possible that the brighter kids have a natural aptitude to learning other languages which average kids don't have.  I think they have the cart before the horse.


----------



## Logique

"Early Money is Like Yeast" or EMILY. 



> Miranda Devine
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/
> 
> ..a well-connected Labor feminist last week..saying Julia Gillard would never have reached the top without Emily’s List..Gillard is entirely a creature of Emily’s List. She was a founding member in 1996, with her mentor, the former Victorian premier Joan Kirner, and helped write its constitution.
> 
> Modelled after a similar pro-choice group in the US, the organisation describes itself as a “financial, political and personal support network assisting in the election of progressive Labor women candidates”. EMILY stands for “Early Money is Like Yeast”...


----------



## Logique

Miss Hale said:


> ...I've no problem with people learning foreign languages but there is no way it's going to help us economically.. In terms of effort spent for benefit I don't think it's really worth it.



Indeed, anglais is accepted as the maritime standard. If the poor little kids must be thus put upon, then surely Bahasa Indonesia, our neighbour, or francais, a classical and Europe language would surely be better advised.


----------



## sails

So_Cynical said:


> Are you guys insane?
> 
> After viewing anything Bolt related to will be in need of this site.
> 
> http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?





Cynical, beyondblue must be very busy according to your biased logic...LOL

These figures speak for themselves.  People watch what they want to watch.





http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/thank_you_for_your_support/


----------



## sails

I am puzzled as to what is going on with Newspoll...

I have always thought Essential Media were somewhat biased to labor and yet their poll out today has labor's 2pp slipping further behind to 54:46 in favour of the coalition.

http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-140


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Teach Asian Languages? What a joke! Our Teachers can't even teach English.



Yet another grandiose scheme which will come to nothing, even if only because it will be unfunded.



sails said:


> And many of our school kids can't even spell English.



Ditto many of our adults.  Ditto many of our teachers whose spelling and grammar is woeful.


> One of my granddaughters is being made to learn Italian in Grade 7 (primary school) and yet she struggles with English grammar and spelling.



Italian???? I don't suppose they have explained why?


> I would much rather she spent extra time in learning her own language rather than forcing her to learn something so useless.



Of course.



sails said:


> I am puzzled as to what is going on with Newspoll...
> 
> I have always thought Essential Media were somewhat biased to labor and yet their poll out today has labor's 2pp slipping further behind to 54:46 in favour of the coalition.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-140



That's a huge difference from the Newspoll result today.  Very odd.
When you suggest a polling company is 'biased to Labor', can you explain in what way you think this is happening?
They all publish the questions asked and none of them are leading questions.
I've been polled and the only qualifier I was asked before answering the questions was whether I was over 18.
And in answering the questions, the researcher totally avoided making any comment whatsoever.  It was all very professionally done.
This is a link to the CATI system which is apparently what most of the research companies use.
http://www.unescap.org/stat/pop-it/pop-guide/capture_ch04.pdf


----------



## Miss Hale

sails said:


> I am puzzled as to what is going on with Newspoll...
> 
> I have always thought Essential Media were somewhat biased to labor and yet their poll out today has labor's 2pp slipping further behind to 54:46 in favour of the coalition.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-140




I actually thought it was the other way around, that Newspoll favoured Labor and Essential tended to favour the Coalition. 



Julia said:


> When you suggest a polling company is 'biased to Labor', can you explain in what way you think this is happening?
> They all publish the questions asked and none of them are leading questions.
> I've been polled and the only qualifier I was asked before answering the questions was whether I was over 18.
> And in answering the questions, the researcher totally avoided making any comment whatsoever.  It was all very professionally done.
> This is a link to the CATI system which is apparently what most of the research companies use.
> http://www.unescap.org/stat/pop-it/pop-guide/capture_ch04.pdf




I think it's not what they ask but where they get their sample from maybe.  In any case, there seems to be some divergence in results from different polling organsisations so there must be some differences in the way they collect their data.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> "Early Money is Like Yeast" or EMILY.









As the late James Mason once said on being confronted with such a sight;

"What a grizzly array of maidenly virtue"

Poor old stick-insect looks like she could do with a good feed. If you kept a pet in that condition, the RSPCA would be on your back.


----------



## Miss Hale

Now listen Calliope, you had better watch what you say or your will be hung, drawn and quartered by the misogyny police :frown: (Never mind about your right to insult or offend whoever you like  )


----------



## Knobby22

I'd like to see a collection of ASF posters standing on a red carpet.


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> I am puzzled as to what is going on with Newspoll...
> 
> I have always thought Essential Media were somewhat biased to labor and yet their poll out today has labor's 2pp slipping further behind to 54:46 in favour of the coalition.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-140



Essential is much less volatile than Newspoll, and is perhaps better reflective of overal electoral sentiment.


----------



## sptrawler

I think, our Julia, hit on what is happening.
The Pommie spin doctor has got them all bagging Tony and also if they have to respond to bad press. Do it with a smile on your face and show enthusiasm.
The thing in the Coalition favour is, all graphs of Labors performance look terrible.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Essential is much less volatile than Newspoll, and is perhaps better reflective of overal electoral sentiment.



What do you think causes the difference?


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> What do you think causes the difference?



It's two week averages, so, that would help.


----------



## drsmith

Widening cracks ?

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...-me-labor-senator-cameron-20121031-28irt.html


----------



## drsmith

And, perhaps another.

Having fully depressed the panic button over asylum policy, are they now preparing to push it through the control panel itself in another betrayal and trash it's relationship with the Greens over their renewable energy target ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...e-energy-targets/story-fn59niix-1226507419224


----------



## drsmith

Julie Bishop vs Julia Gillard.

http://media.smh.com.au/national/selections/gillard-its-personal-3758026.html

Towards the the end, Julia Gillard missed the speaker's vibe on withdrawing a comment and had to be told bluntly.


----------



## moXJO

Thomson bad mouthing labor today, maybe those charges are just around the corner and labor has told him to distance himself.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Thomson bad mouthing labor today, maybe those charges are just around the corner and labor has told him to distance himself.



I too am wondering what all that is about.

Peter Slipper's been doing the same with the Coalition. An extra second or two of being noticed I suspect in his case.


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> Thomson bad mouthing labor today, maybe those charges are just around the corner and labor has told him to distance himself.






drsmith said:


> I too am wondering what all that is about.
> 
> Peter Slipper's been doing the same with the Coalition. An extra second or two of being noticed I suspect in his case.



Yes.  These two have been appropriately silent in the House but suddenly they are front and centre.  Something is up.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> It is hard to fathom out where these polls are being taken, nevertheless it may be a ploy to encourage Gillard to go to an early election which in effect may favor the coaltion and back fire on Gillard. It may lead her into a false sense of security and entice her to do something more stupid than she has in the past.
> 
> News poll may be manipulating voters trend to make the coaltition look like under dogs and bring some simpathy back their way.
> 
> I just do not believe Gillard has tunred things around so fast in jus twi weeks with this misogyny crap.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...isogyny-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226504943610






sails said:


> I am puzzled as to what is going on with Newspoll...
> 
> I have always thought Essential Media were somewhat biased to labor and yet their poll out today has labor's 2pp slipping further behind to 54:46 in favour of the coalition.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-140






Miss Hale said:


> I actually thought it was the other way around, that Newspoll favoured Labor and Essential tended to favour the Coalition.
> 
> I think it's not what they ask but where they get their sample from maybe.  In any case, there seems to be some divergence in results from different polling organsisations so there must be some differences in the way they collect their data.






drsmith said:


> Essential is much less volatile than Newspoll, and is perhaps better reflective of overal electoral sentiment.



The following post will be split into multiple posts, because of the ongoing difficulty of ASF apparently finding long posts unacceptable.

In the wake of the above comments, plus similar from Ves which I cannot now find (might be on a different thread) I have contacted the CEO of Newspoll, Mr Martin O'Shannessy to ask him for his response to these assertions.  I'm appreciative of his courtesy in being prepared to respond.

Amongst his reply is a table of Newspoll results.  This has not come out well in copy and paste so is added as a screenshot.

Hope this is helpful to those alleging bias in any direction.   Might also be good to check out the affiliations of other polling organisations, e.g. Essential Media just for one.


----------



## Julia

Next part:


> Dear Julia,
> 
> Thanks for your inquiry.
> 
> How Newspoll opinion polls are conducted
> 
> Our voter intention polls are published exclusively in The Australian. Each Newspoll voter opinion poll is conducted on the Newspoll Telephone Omnibus.
> 
> This is a weekly survey in which we interview 1200 people each weekend setting age, sex and geographic quotas across more than sixty distinct regions in Australia. Our voter opinion surveys run approximately fortnightly during parliamentary sitting weeks although we commonly have a three week break when there is a big gap in parliamentary sittings or when we suspect another major company will be releasing a poll. Polling is an important part of our total business but Newspoll is also a major national market research organisation with hundreds of other commercial clients.
> 
> We have correctly called every one of the 55 state and federal elections since we were founded in 1985 using our methods. The accusations of some bloggers about Newspoll intentionally publishing figures to favour one party or the other are frankly foolish given our 27 year record and our status as a major commercial organisation.


----------



## Julia

Next part


> Newspoll has not been volatile in recent times
> 
> You asked me to comment on the question of volatility. In the last six polls we published, the average ALP primary vote is 34.4%. The highest was 36% and the lowest was 33%
> 
> The greatest week-to-week variation in primary vote was 3% which is just inside the expected margin error – so the assertion of volatility just doesn’t hold water. The 2PP is an artefact of allocating votes for minor parties according to the way preferences flowed at the last election.
> 
> Even if I held the view that this led to a distortion on a week to week basis, I would continue to use the system as it is consistent with past practice. It is not open to me to ‘adjust’ polls according to what I think is ‘about right’ or on any other basis.
> 
> We publish 100% of our polls  - none are held back and they are all conducted and reported in precisely the same manner as we have done for the last 27 years.


----------



## Julia

Next part


> Here is a list of our results for the last few months. You will see clearly that our numbers sit tightly around their average of 34.4% for the ALP and 43.8% for the Coalition – in no way volatile.
> 
> As an aside, it seems ironic that I am now proving this to your correspondents by showing them widely published figures when it’s obvious that they are apparently unaware of or have not bothered to check before criticising however, here we go...


----------



## Julia

Next part


> It’s interesting to note that both parties are now two points short of where they were at the last election. We are in the run-down to the 2013 election now and past experience predicts that the two will be even closer for a great part of the next 12 months. Most elections are won by a party gaining between 51% and 53% of the two party vote and that’s the sort of range we should expect to see in the year ahead.
> 
> Which polling companies are independent?
> 
> You mentioned other polling companies in our telephone conversation. The only truly independent, regularly published polling companies in Australia are Newspoll, Nielsen and Galaxy. Virtually all other organisations publishing polls are proactive campaigners with clear party affiliations and a very cursory web search using their names will show relationships between the organisations or their principals and one party or another. Given this, comparison between Newspoll and others is quite inappropriate.


----------



## Julia

Next part


> Newspoll is impartial
> 
> The accusation of partiality invariably comes from the side that is losing. People try to discredit Newspoll when they don’t like the result but nod approvingly when the numbers sit well with their view of the world.
> 
> Frankly its appallingly childish and a phenomenon that seems to have been boosted by the apparent anonymity of the internet. Today, otherwise polite individuals seem to feel OK about publishing slander because they think they are anonymous.
> 
> 
> 
> Having said that a  look at some recent history of criticism will be instructive...
> 
> Up to July this year I had just published 16 months of straight polls that said the ALP was in deep trouble but did not hear from any Coalition supporters during that time. I think I am right in deducing that they agreed with those results and so were not moved to question my impartiality. This might give you cause to pause if you think on it. That was before things turned slightly less unfavourable for the ALP.
> 
> Throughout those 16 months (while Coalition supports were still nodding approvingly) intellectual giants of the calibre of Bob Ellis took up the lance to joust Quixotically at the Newspoll windmill. Some very clear examples of the foolish poppycock posted by Bob and other bloggers at that time can be found on Bob Ellis’ blog (here’s the link so you don’t have to search) - http://www.ellistabletalk.com/2012/05/06/the-hypothetical-ashby-brough-conspiracy-an-exchange/


----------



## Julia

Next part


> Of course, this period followed the Rudd era. Between 2007 and 2009 I published  73 straight polls that said the Coalition was in deep trouble. Would it surprise you to learn that no Labor supporters complained until the change in the polls in 2009?  I assume that they also agreed with those numbers and therefore felt that my results must be impartial – that is until they heard a result they did not like.
> 
> 
> 
> Please excuse me if my response seems a little jaded – you are one of the few people who has posed the question politely in recent times –it has been posed often, rudely and aggressively of late and I’m frankly sick of the foolishly uninformed of both political persuasions parroting any rubbish they hear when it suits them to disagree with the results of a poll.  A person in my shoes would feel that it was time for all the armchair experts to stop shooting the messenger, obtain a few basic facts and refrain from slandering people they have not met on the basis of information they have not examined.
> 
> 
> 
> I can promise you that the polls will turn in time and doubtless the views of today’s complainants will also turn. In the meantime, I will pursue my profession of thirty years in an honest and diligent way asking only the basic courtesy of silence in the peanut gallery.
> 
> Please feel free to write again.
> 
> My very kind regards,
> Martin O'Shannessy
> CEO Newspoll
> T 02 9921 1001 M 0419 988035   www.newspoll.com.au


----------



## drsmith

Julie Bishop vs Julia Gillard round 2,

Part of the exchange in parliament as follows,



> Julie Bishop: Given the Prime Minister’s involvement in the power of attorney in early 1993 and in the defamation case in late 1993, how can the Prime Minister continue to claim, as she did to journalists at her press conference on 23 August, that her involvement in the AWU fund ceased in early 1992?
> 
> Julia Gillard: I continue to stand by what I said at that press conference. What I said at that press conference was the truth.




That response is sounding very much like the last line of defence.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2012/11/01/1226508/705198-121102-question-time.pdf



> Ms Bishop told The Australian she was examining a significant pile of documents and would continue to press Ms Gillard for a parliamentary explanation of her involvement in the fund.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...union-file-dates/story-fn6tcs23-1226508746180

The Opposition clearly has the confidence to proceed with a full scale assult on this matter. Are they also slow-roasting her for good measure.



Julia said:


> Yes.  These two have been appropriately silent in the House but suddenly they are front and centre.  Something is up.



Yes indeed.


----------



## Ferret

Julia said:


> In the wake of the above comments, plus similar from Ves which I cannot now find (might be on a different thread) I have contacted the CEO of Newspoll, Mr Martin O'Shannessy to ask him for his response to these assertions.  I'm appreciative of his courtesy in being prepared to respond.




Julia,

Thanks for going to the trouble of contacting Mr O'Shannessy and posting his response.  

Whilst he sounds a little exasperated, his response reassures me that Newspolls are legitimate gauges of public voting intention.


----------



## dutchie

Macquarie Dictionary redefines *Hypocrisy*

hy·poc·ri·sy
[hi-pok-ruh-see] 
noun, plural hy·poc·ri·sies.
1.
Australian Labor Party decisions and actions
2.
a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
3.
a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
4.
an act or instance of hypocrisy.

example:

Labor government rewards known misogynist -

Disgraced Peter Slipper's back in the jet set 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...k-in-the-jet-set/story-e6freuy9-1226508717871


----------



## MrBurns

Rare footage has emerged of Gillards childhood - 

http://i.imgur.com/XaiUx.gif


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> Julie Bishop vs Julia Gillard.
> 
> http://media.smh.com.au/national/selections/gillard-its-personal-3758026.html
> 
> Towards the the end, Julia Gillard missed the speaker's vibe on withdrawing a comment and had to be told bluntly.




Two days in a row Bishop has posed questions to Gillard in parliament and yet not a mention on Lateline despite covering extensively what happened in parliament each day.  Fobbed off again on ABC radio this morning too.


----------



## Julia

Ferret said:


> Julia,
> 
> Thanks for going to the trouble of contacting Mr O'Shannessy and posting his response.
> 
> Whilst he sounds a little exasperated, his response reassures me that Newspolls are legitimate gauges of public voting intention.



You're welcome, Ferret.  Let's hope it similarly reassures others.
I'm not surprised he is somewhat exasperated.


----------



## gav

Ferret said:


> Julia,
> 
> Thanks for going to the trouble of contacting Mr O'Shannessy and posting his response.
> 
> Whilst he sounds a little exasperated, his response reassures me that Newspolls are legitimate gauges of public voting intention.




Totally agree. Thanks Julia for taking the time to do this, it was interesting to read Mr O'Shannessy's detailed response


----------



## Ves

Thanks for the effort Julia - I still lean towards my opinion, but I do admit that it is possible that some marketing organisations are probably legit.  He has some interesting things to say about some of these "other" organisations too - which certainly leaves room for skepticism.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> Thanks for the effort Julia - I still lean towards my opinion, but I do admit that it is possible that some marketing organisations are probably legit.  He has some interesting things to say about some of these "other" organisations too - which certainly leaves room for skepticism.




Glad you found it useful, Ves.  Having worked for one of Australia's largest research agencies I'm very aware of the lengths they go to in order to be objective and to absolutely avoid any bias.

I cannot post here all that Mr O'Shannessey discussed on the phone, but I'd suggest anyone with a genuine interest in this field follow his suggestion of discovering the affiliations of some of the polling organisations.
I did, and was very much surprised.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> Glad you found it useful, Ves.  Having worked for one of Australia's largest research agencies I'm very aware of the lengths they go to in order to be objective and to absolutely avoid any bias.
> 
> I cannot post here all that Mr O'Shannessey discussed on the phone, but I'd suggest anyone with a genuine interest in this field follow his suggestion of discovering the affiliations of some of the polling organisations.
> I did, and was very much surprised.



I didn't realise that you worked in the field at one stage.  No wonder you knew where to get the info!


----------



## drsmith

Something else that makes an election look sooner rather than later.



> RELATIONS between the federal government and Rob Oakeshott have turned poisonous after a senior cabinet minister initiated legal action against the NSW independent MP concerning comments he made about the mining tax.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...by-ministers-legal-threat-20121102-28pgz.html

As for the MRRT itself, that mess just gets worse.



> Failing to abolish royalties not only complicates the operation of the MRRT, it also removes an important justification for a profits-based mining tax. And crediting royalties against MRRT payments creates the extraordinary situation whereby when no tax is paid the commonwealth has a liability on its books if miners ever do start paying the tax.
> 
> In fact, it's a growing liability because the royalties credits keep accumulating while the miners don't pay the MRRT and, on top of that, unclaimed credits attract 10 per cent compound interest. It is extraordinary that a government would agree to such a taxation model.
> 
> In other words, not only has the first quarter of the MRRT's operation brought no revenue, it has created a commonwealth contingent liability. It has done so without relieving miners of the cost burden of paying royalties upfront, however. This is especially burdensome for smaller miners, but of course they were shut out of the 2010 negotiations.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...more-liabilities/story-fn53lw5p-1226509415880


----------



## Ves

drsmith said:


> Something else that makes an election look sooner rather than later.



I get the feeling that the US election will be like drugs to Australian politicians... it will spread the election fever.  Could be wrong, but before March 2013 seems likely, don't you think?


----------



## Logique

A little shocked to read that Warren Mundine, a former national president, is leaving the ALP, "..no longer the party I joined.." he says - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-the-labor-party/story-fn59niix-1226509539543



> Mr Mundine put his hand up to become Labor’s first federal indigenous parliamentarian when Mark Arbib quit the Senate in March. The ALP put Bob Carr into the seat. Asked if he could now see himself voting for the Liberal Party, Mr Mundine said: “Of course I can. Absolutely.”



Can't be easy watching "Banker Bob", his wife in tow, jetting around the world in business class at taxpayers expense. But Mundine is a man of integrity, and very welcome on the Liberal side.


----------



## banco

drsmith said:


> Something else that makes an election look sooner rather than later.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...by-ministers-legal-threat-20121102-28pgz.html
> 
> As for the MRRT itself, that mess just gets worse.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...more-liabilities/story-fn53lw5p-1226509415880




Be very curious to know if Gillard etc. knew the tax would raise very little if any money or if they got conned by the miners.  I've read that the Department of Treasury was cut out of the negotiations which makes me think that Gillard knew that the tax would raise very little money but didn't want to be told so by Treasury during the negotiations.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> I didn't realise that you worked in the field at one stage.  No wonder you knew where to get the info!



My working in the industry was a very long time ago and has zero connection to obtaining any information now.
I simply googled Newspoll, phoned their  head office Sydney number and explained what I wanted to know.
Mr O'Shannessy phoned me back the following day.

Anyone could have done the same.


----------



## drsmith

banco said:


> Be very curious to know if Gillard etc. knew the tax would raise very little if any money or if they got conned by the miners.  I've read that the Department of Treasury was cut out of the negotiations which makes me think that Gillard knew that the tax would raise very little money but didn't want to be told so by Treasury during the negotiations.



Being a political fix to ease the path to an early election which she subsequently called, I'd say she didn't care one way or the other and did not want to know.

As for Martin Ferguson himself, he's now been given a severe spanking by the head mistress.


----------



## noco

I am sure Gillard would like to increase the GST but does not have the "guts" to do it unless of course she changes her mind and she has been known to in the past. She might even become desperate and hang it on some one else by saying we will increase the GST but it's not my idea.

I quoted some time ago of an exercise I did on 12.5% GST that it would bring in some $11.5 billion and would have given Labor a less headache than they now have on a carbon dioxide tax. At least people would have known how much extra they have to pay for goods and services where as with the Carbon dioxide tax it is unknown factor and is open to exploitation by unscrupulous traders.

Please read the connecting link by Paul Kelly. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rise-in-gst-rate/story-fn59niix-1226509690587


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> I quoted some time ago of an exercise I did on 12.5% GST that it would bring in some $11.5 billion and would have given Labor a less headache than they now have on a carbon dioxide tax.



From Labor's perspective that wasn't the case and is still not the case. They needed the support of the Greens and independents to take office.

Any review to the GST should first involve broadening the base as this would simplify the tax overall. 

As a matter of principal, governments should first look at living within their means before increasing the rate of any tax. This includes policies that repersent value for money and implementation as such. It also includes more efficient tas transfer arrangements, and in particular, making the base of existing taxes more robust and reviewing middle class welfare.


----------



## noco

I think Miss Gillard is digging a hole for herself by not telling the truth. 

I hope Julie Bishop keeps digging until she finds some buried treasure.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/awu_scandal_gillard_misled_parliament/


----------



## banco

drsmith said:


> Being a political fix to ease the path to an early election which she subsequently called, I'd say she didn't care one way or the other and did not want to know.
> 
> As for Martin Ferguson himself, he's now been given a severe spanking by the head mistress.




Well let's face it I don't think anyone will be surprised when Martin Ferguson leaves politics to take up a highly paid job with mining interests after the next election.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> I hope Julie Bishop keeps digging until she finds some buried treasure.



I suspect the opposition feel they have enough, but are wisely proceeding with at least some caution.

Senator Eric Abetz on Bolt this morning,



> [Senator Abetz: That is my understanding and all that is on the public record would suggest that. That is why there is a full 12 months in the chronology between Julia Gillard being interviewed and then leaving Slater and Gordon and the Australian Workers Union becoming aware of it and reporting it to the Police. So the assertion that the Prime Minister made in the Parliament does not seem to gel with the chronology on the public record. Having said that, I'm willing to give the Prime Minister the benefit of the doubt, but only if she provides a full and frank explanation to the Australian people.




http://www.international.to/index.p...nion-funds-&catid=97:breaking-news&Itemid=119


----------



## Logique

Don't rule out a 12.5% GST from an incoming Coalition government. The national books will be in a (probably very) dire state by the time they assume power. You take the tough decisions early in the term. 

Yes the carbon tax will be watered down if they can find a way, perhaps they'll lower the floor price, but to abolish the tax completely requires passing the Senate, that's difficult.

Sadly, despite the Coalition promises, I don't see the means tested Medicare rebate being unwound.

As for the ridiculous Coalition maternity leave proposal, surely it too must be doubtful now.

"ALP Insiders" lived up to it's name this morning. You'd swear AbbotAbbottAbbott was running the country already.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> I think Miss Gillard is digging a hole for herself by not telling the truth.
> 
> I hope Julie Bishop keeps digging until she finds some buried treasure.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/awu_scandal_gillard_misled_parliament/



Does the average Australian really care about this?   I doubt it.



Logique said:


> Yes the carbon tax will be watered down if they can find a way, perhaps they'll lower the floor price, but to abolish the tax completely requires passing the Senate, that's difficult.



That's a pretty sensible suggestion.  Would avoid the whole drama of a double dissolution election which would probably be more than the electorate could stomach.  Could Abbott et al reduce the floor price to, say, $1
without any difficulty, other than the predictable wailing from the Greens?



> Sadly, despite the Coalition promises, I don't see the means tested Medicare rebate being unwound.



This is one I'd not want to see removed.  There are many people, especially elderly, on low incomes who have so little trust in the public system (especially in regional areas) that they even now go without other stuff in order to pay their insurance premiums.



> As for the ridiculous Coalition maternity leave proposal, surely it too must be doubtful now.



Hope so.  You'd have to wonder why on earth he came up with it in the first place.  Perhaps to attempt to negate the "Abbott doesn't like women" mantra.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> Hope so.  You'd have to wonder why on earth he came up with it in the first place.  Perhaps to attempt to negate the "Abbott doesn't like women" mantra.




I believe at the time it was to counter the "women don't like Abbott" poll results.
I wonder what policy he will come up with to replace it?


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Don't rule out a 12.5% GST from an incoming Coalition government. The national books will be in a (probably very) dire state by the time they assume power. You take the tough decisions early in the term.



If they (any government) could raise it to 20%, they would. Raising a tax is technically the simplest approach, but it in itself is not reform. When we start down that path, where does it stop, 12.5%, 15%, 20% ?

That's why I'm idiologically against raising the rate.

In practical terms, any government wanting to do so though has to get over the hurdle of getting all the states into bipartisan agreement.



Logique said:


> Yes the carbon tax will be watered down if they can find a way, perhaps they'll lower the floor price, but to abolish the tax completely requires passing the Senate, that's difficult.



This will depend a lot on the politics at the time, no doubt.



Logique said:


> Sadly, despite the Coalition promises, I don't see the means tested Medicare rebate being unwound.
> 
> As for the ridiculous Coalition maternity leave proposal, surely it too must be doubtful now.



With commentary from TA about phasing in and delaying, we are allready seeing the Coalition start to back away at least in broad terms, and that's a good thing. The damage done by Labor sadly can't be repaired overnight.

In itself, that maternity leave proposal should never have seen light of day.



Logique said:


> "ALP Insiders" lived up to it's name this morning. You'd swear AbbotAbbottAbbott was running the country already.



Penny Wong was clearly slightly less than keen to garantee that surplus.

I thought the panel was OK, but yes, the focus was biased too much towards the opposition in my view.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> I thought the panel was OK, but yes, the focus was biased too much towards the opposition in my view.





Truly you lot live on another planet............


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Truly you lot live on another planet............




Yes, the real world.


----------



## drsmith

wayneL said:


> Yes, the real world.



Indeed, where money doesn't grow on trees.


----------



## joea

http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/gillard_has_good_reason_to_go_early_cDUbMvva8sHxbccG1VyfcM
joea


----------



## drsmith

joea said:


> http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/gillard_has_good_reason_to_go_early_cDUbMvva8sHxbccG1VyfcM
> joea



If Julia Gillard goes early, I suspect it will have more to do with Labor's problems coming home to roost than anything else.

Alan Carpenter tried it in the west in 2008 when the Libs changed leaders and lost office.


----------



## Julia

Joke (or is it?).  In two parts (sigh) because of ongoing problems with longer posts.


> A old stationhand named Billy was overseeing his herd in a remote pasture in the
> 
> outback when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.
> 
> 
> The driver, a young man in a Brioni ® suit, Gucci ® shoes, RayBan ® sunglasses and
> 
> YSL ® tie, leaned out the window and asked the old man, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, will you give me a calf?"
> 
> 
> 
> Billy looks at the young man, who obviously is a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully
> 
> grazing herd and calmly answers, "Sure, why not?"
> The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell ® notebook computer, connects it to his
> 
> Cingular RAZR V3 ® cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he
> 
> calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another
> NASA satellite that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.
> 
> The yuppie then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop ® and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg, Germany ....


----------



## Julia

Here is the rest (I hope)


> Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot ® that the image has been processed
> and the data stored. He then accesses an MS-SQL ® database through an ODBC connected Excel ® spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry ® and, after a few minutes, receives a response.
> 
> Finally, he prints out a full-color, 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized HP
> LaserJet ® printer, turns to Billy and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves."
> 
> 
> "That's right. Well, you'll be helpin' yourself to one of me calves, then, since you won
> it fair en square." says Billy.
> 
> He watches the smartly dressed yuppie select one of the animals and looks on with
> amusement as the man gingerly picks it up & stuffs it into the boot of his car.
> 
> As the yuppie is carefully brushing the dust & hair off his suit, Billy says, "Hey, if I can
> tell you exactly what work you do & where you come from, will you give me back my calf?"
> 
> The yuppie thinks about it for a second, wondering what  this wrinkled up dirt encrusted
> uneducated old man could possibly know?    He grins and then says, "Okay, old fella, why not? I'm a believer in fair play."
> 
> "You're a politician  & you work in Canberra." says the old timer.
> 
> "Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but, tell me how on earth did you guess that?"
> 
> "No guessing required." answered Billy "You showed up here even though nobody
> called you;  you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never
> asked.  You used millions of dollars worth of equipment trying to show me how much
> smarter than me you are; and you don't know a thing about how working people make
> a living - or about cows, for that matter.
> This is a herd of sheep.
> 
> Now give me back my dog."
> 
> AND THAT FOLKS IS WHAT THE PROBLEM IS ALL ABOUT.


----------



## dutchie

Be ready with your baseball bats for an early election.

There is no way that Labor will deliver the next budget.


----------



## moXJO

> World leaders liked my misogny speech, says Julia Gillard
> PRIME Minister Julia Gillard says she has won global support for her attack on Tony Abbott as a misogynist.



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/world-leaders-liked-my-misogny-speech-says-julia-gillard/story-fndo2j43-1226511992647

Talk about flogging a dead horse. Why even try and rehash it, unless the reason is to vilify Abbott. 
Talking about dumb speeches, Abbott has been very quiet lately.


----------



## noco

dutchie said:


> Be ready with your baseball bats for an early election.
> 
> There is no way that Labor will deliver the next budget.




dutchie, this link confirms the prospects of Labor planning for an early election in March 2013.

They are terrified their surplus will not be attained before an October 2013 election.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...n-surplus-target/story-e6frg74x-1226511760881


----------



## Julia

The world leaders are apparently ignorant of her defence of the disgustingly misogynistic and vivid descriptions of female genitalia by the odious Slipper.  
She is the ultimate hypocrite.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> The world leaders are apparently ignorant of her defence of the disgustingly misogynistic and vivid descriptions of female genitalia by the odious Slipper.
> She is the ultimate hypocrite.




Yes Julia, and here is a link by the women's magazine MARIE CLAIRE portraying how hypocritcal she is.

She is a cunning, lieing and conniving woman at her best.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...minist-fantasies/story-e6frg7bo-1226511758423


----------



## noco

Does Gillard really think by sprouting her MISOGYNIST lie to world leaders will get her over the line at the next election.

I think NOT.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ud_her_misogynist_lie_fooled_a_leader_or_two/


----------



## bellenuit

I would assume that Tony Abbott is completely unknown to the world leaders, so any opinion they expressed on the speech would have been on the assumption that Gillard's claims about Abbott were true. It is appalling that Gillard would use that as some sort of vindication.

I was also surprised by Janet Holmes a Court's approval of the speech.  She spoke of the venom she has seen on the internet against Gillard and justified it on that basis. Whilst she is probably correct that there is a lot of misogyny on the net, she seems to forget that the speech was not directed against those on the net, but specifically against Abbott.


----------



## Miss Hale

bellenuit said:


> I was also surprised by Janet Holmes a Court's approval of the speech.  She spoke of the venom she has seen on the internet against Gillard and justified it on that basis. Whilst she is probably correct that there is a lot of misogyny on the net, she seems to forget that the speech was not directed against those on the net, but specifically against Abbott.




I am surprised too. There is plenty of venom on the internet against Tony Abbott as well, or anyone for that matter.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Does Gillard really think by sprouting her MISOGYNIST lie to world leaders will get her over the line at the next election.
> 
> I think NOT.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ud_her_misogynist_lie_fooled_a_leader_or_two/




It was a cheap shot by a tacky lady, leading a tacky party.
Slagging off at people, with no basis, in order to promote your own standing, is a short lived popularity ploy.
How many of the people you worked with, that employed this activity, ended up on their ar$e.
It works well in the U.K, but If Abbott doesn't get sucked in, it will backfire here. IMO

What if Abbott asks for examples of his sexism? 
What if he takes her to task on it, in the run up to the election?
There is one thing for sure, the coalition would be stupid to say anything untill an election is called.
This government stands for nothing, other than re election, there is nothing they won't back flip on, change policy on, or even adopt coalition policy on.
This government imo has no soul, it is just about retaining office, nothing to do with labor beliefs. 
They sold out to the Greens and found it is wasn't that hard, it's just like running a union.lol


----------



## Logique

Obama-care, Obama victory, the US people have spoken. The ones that vote anyway.

Bolt is about a decade late with the following observation, and clearly hasn't worked with any state public service:



> *Obama win celebrated in post-racial US*
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/
> 
> ...Well, welcome to the new age of identity politics - a time when seeming trumps doing, identity trumps performance and receiving beats giving...


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> Obama-care, Obama victory, the US people have spoken. The ones that vote anyway.
> 
> Bolt is about a decade late with the following observation, and clearly hasn't worked with any state public service:




It will be interesting to see how it plays out here. 

The litmus test will be the W.A election. 
Labor has a new, younger more popular leader, facing upto Barnett who has brought in a lot of price hikes.
My money is on the Libs, but I have been wrong before, on many occassions.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> My money is on the Libs, but I have been wrong before, on many *occassions*.




Yes - add this one to your list.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> Yes - add this one to your list.




My tip, don't put your gonads on it. lol


----------



## sptrawler

It's funny, since Julia's spray the whole debate has lost steam. 
I think she has certainly polarised the voters, it will be interesting to see if she has played a winner.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> It's funny, since Julia's spray the whole debate has lost steam.
> I think she has certainly polarised the voters, it will be interesting to see if she has played a winner.




Romney managed to alienate the majority of American women.  Gillard managed to alienate the majority of Australian men, and is still boasting about it. There is a lesson in this.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Romney managed to alienate the majority of American women.  Gillard managed to alienate the majority of Australian men, and is still boasting about it. There is a lesson in this.



There might also be a lesson in the very peculiar improvement in sentiment toward her from Australian men following her infamous misogyny speech.  Hard to know what it is.


----------



## sptrawler

It will also be interesting, how they explain the splash of cash when it wasn't needed and actually was wasted.
Now when we need a splash of cash, the pantry's bare.
Like we said years ago any idiot can throw away money, it is when things get tough you see who is the best treasurer.LOl
All I see is a treasurer, that threw money around like an idiot, now tells all the plebs to suck it up.
He has gone from "here you go, a fist full of dollars, go buy a plasma and would you like batts with that".
To, "things are tough, we have got to stop spending more than we take in as tax"
Worlds greatest dick. IMO

Last time labor were in it took a lot of years to pay down the deficit, one would think history will repeat, as usual.


----------



## Miss Hale

Julia said:


> There might also be a lesson in the very peculiar improvement in sentiment toward her from Australian men following her infamous misogyny speech.  Hard to know what it is.




I think a lot of women may have been - understandably - alarmed by the comments of two of the republicans relating to abortion rather than alienated by Romney himself.  The comments were to a certain extent IMO taken out of context, misrepresented and beaten up by the media. (Before I get :bricks1:, yes I am anti-abortion but I don't believe in legitimate rape or any concepts along those lines).


----------



## DB008

Budget? Surplus? Resources? China?

If Gillard & Co manage to stay in power, we really will see how good this treasure of ours is....'Swan, world's best treasurer'....



> *Reserve Bank of Australia has cut its economic growth forecasts*
> 
> THE Reserve Bank has cut its economic growth forecasts, warning the resources boom is losing steam faster than expected.
> 
> And the central bank has voiced its concern over the looming "fiscal cliff" in the US, where the economic outlook is mired in uncertainty.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/reserve-bank-of-australia-has-cut-its-economic-growth-forecasts/story-fn7j19iv-1226513991177


----------



## noco

OMG how much lower can this Green/Labor left wing socialist government go to stay in power?



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...itch-up-by-labor/story-e6frg6zo-1226513882387


----------



## noco

No doubt this latest RBA report will prompt Julia Gillard to go to an early election maybe March 2013.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...growth-warns-rba/story-e6frg8zx-1226514058330


----------



## sptrawler

I think most voters are over the crap, Julia brought that to fruition with the misogyny speach.
Most Australians had never heard of misogyny, let alone knew Abbott was afflicted with it.
Like I said earlier, I think most Australians just want to go to the polls.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> I think most voters are over the crap, Julia brought that to fruition with the misogyny speach.
> Most Australians had never heard of misogyny, let alone knew Abbott was afflicted with it.
> Like I said earlier, I think most Australians just want to go to the polls.




I'm sure they do.

Gillard is making the most of the time she has left, she's taking every photo op she can and is looking very satisfied with herself.

Her voice makes me cringe.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I think most voters are over the crap, Julia brought that to fruition with the misogyny speach.
> Most Australians had never heard of misogyny, let alone knew Abbott was afflicted with it.



You've fallen for the spin. 

He was never afflicted with it.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> You've fallen for the spin.
> 
> He was never afflicted with it.




Jeez doc, I had to google it to spell it.

She is getting like Keating, "full of it"


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> You've fallen for the spin.
> 
> He was never afflicted with it.




Doc, I heard on the Bolt show today we can expect some fire works over the AWU slush fund and Gillard's involvement in the dodgey deal with Wilson and Slater and Gordon.


----------



## Logique

You have to laugh sometimes. 

If an Opposition MP were to direct the following language to the Government benches, what chance of even remaining in the Chamber, let alone escaping a misogyny charge and a parliamentary inquiry: 

 “Mangy maggot”, “Old tart”, “Bowser boy” “Little whinger” and “His Oiliness”. 

The speaker? Celebrated parliamentary performer and Labor PM Paul Keating - http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/index.php


----------



## MrBurns

I cant help but think Gilard jumped on this to stop Abbott taking the front running, she is chasing the ratings above all else.




> Gillard launches royal commission into child abuse
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has announced the creation of a national royal commission into institutional responses to instances of child sexual abuse.
> 
> The decision was taken at a meeting of federal cabinet this afternoon.
> 
> Ms Gillard had been under pressure to act following growing calls for a national inquiry into explosive allegations by a senior New South Wales police investigator that the Catholic Church covered up evidence involving paedophile priests.
> 
> A number of senior Labor MPs, as well as key independents, had already voiced their support for action on a national scale.
> 
> Opposition Leader Tony Abbott also declared his support for a "wide-ranging" royal commission into child sex abuse but said it should not just focus on claims involving the Catholic Church.


----------



## MrBurns

> Opposition Leader Tony Abbott also declared his support for a "wide-ranging" royal commission into child sex abuse but said it should not just focus on claims involving the Catholic Church.




Whats more I think Abbott was right, this should have been about the Catholic Church only, there's enough there to keep a Royal Commission going for 12 months at least.

But NO Gillard has to do something different to try to appear better.:frown:


----------



## sptrawler

I must say I commend her on calling this Royal Commission, about time someone did.
This should be closely followed by a Royal Commission into the unions and misappropriation of funds.
I wonder if she will call that one !!!!! LOL


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> I cant help but think Gilard jumped on this to stop Abbott taking the front running, she is chasing the ratings above all else.



As Opposition Leader only, Mr Abbott cannot call a Royal Commission.
Imo Ms Gillard deserves credit for being decisive about this and acting rapidly following Det Insp Fox's whistleblowing on Lateline.



MrBurns said:


> Whats more I think Abbott was right, this should have been about the Catholic Church only, there's enough there to keep a Royal Commission going for 12 months at least.



Why?   Do you want all those other institutions, charged with the care of vulnerable children, to be ignored for their sexual, physical and emotional abuse of those children?
There is nothing so far to suggest that the Catholic Church will not be thoroughly scrutinised in the Royal Commission.  I don't see how excluding the investigation into other institutions would change that.

All this filth has been covered up for decades.  It's time it was all brought out into the open, hopefully taking the heads of most of the perpetrators in the process.  The damage done to children is beyond comprehension.


----------



## MrBurns

No he can't but Gillard was silent until Abbott spoke up.
A RC into all child abuse waters the whole thing down unless you want to wait 5 years
To target possibly the worst offender would be the best way to progress the matter.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> As Opposition Leader only, Mr Abbott cannot call a Royal Commission.
> Imo Ms Gillard deserves credit for being decisive about this and acting rapidly following Det Insp Fox's whistleblowing on Lateline.



One of the independents (Tony Windsor I think it was) started banging on about this over the weekend.

I now tend to look at everything Julia Gillard does through the prism of skepticism. In keeping with that theme, I'd suggest she was trying to wedge Tony Abbott and keep the electorate looking at her.

Labor's decision too to reduce the baby bonus is in itself a good idea, but in the context of covering the cost of their policy failures, it's not.

As for the Catholic Church itself, it's well past time they dragged themselves a little further from the dark ages and allowed their priests to marry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy_(Catholic_Church)


----------



## MrBurns

I agree re Gillard everything she does has personal motive behind it
Don't think allowing priests to marry would help
The church is a haven for pedophiles and sex offenders


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Doc, I heard on the Bolt show today we can expect some fire works over the AWU slush fund and Gillard's involvement in the dodgey deal with Wilson and Slater and Gordon.



One thing's for sure. All is not well between Julia Gillard and Slater and Gordon now.



> ''I was not in charge of the conveyancing file,'' she told journalists during a visit to Laos.
> 
> But Slater & Gordon managing director Andrew Grech has confirmed Ms Gillard ''acted directly'' in the conveyancing work on the property purchase.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/lawyers-contradict-pms-claim-20121112-298es.html


----------



## sptrawler

Apparently, internal polling is still telling Labor they will lose an election. Despite Tony.


http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...nt-help-it-win-early-poll-20121112-298gf.html


----------



## Tink

Agree with Julia, if you are going to clear one, clear them all, it has been rife along the board for years, not just the Catholic Church, state care, institutions, boy scouts, sports bodies, the list goes on.

It was Abbott that brought up the Royal Commission, saying he would agree if it was widened to all. 
Within half an hour, Gillard said she would.


----------



## MrBurns

Tink said:


> Agree with Julia, if you are going to clear one, clear them all, it has been rife along the board for years, not just the Catholic Church, state care, institutions, boy scouts, sports bodies, the list goes on.
> 
> It was Abbott that brought up the Royal Commission, saying he would agree if it was widened to all.
> Within half an hour, Gillard said she would.




It's too wide, this takes the focus off the Church which needs to be cleansed from top to bottom, close the damn thing down in Australia, it's not just the offenders it's those who cover it up and I think you'll find that goes* all the way to the top.*

Leave the boy scouts to the police in the meantime.

If this goes ahead in this format it wil be 5 years before we get a result and it will need more than one Commissioner. Just what the Church wants, time to maneuver and offend further in the meantime.


----------



## Tink

As Mr Fox has said, there is a lot of good in the Church and a handful that wreck it.

Department of Human Services cuts reporting as attacks on children and disabled in state care surge 
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...state-care-surge/story-e6frf7kx-1226511702261
There were a record 512 assaults, sex attacks and rapes of children in care last year.


----------



## drsmith

The economic skeleton in Labor's closet continues to rattle.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...continue-to-fall/story-e6frg926-1226515776583


----------



## drsmith

With friends like Mark Latham, Julia Gillard doesn't need enemies.

According to Mark, you don't dob someone in to the police after you break up with them. Listen from about 10min50sec. Some insights into Labor there I suggest.


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> With friends like Mark Latham, Julia Gillard doesn't need enemies.
> 
> According to Mark, you don't dob someone in to the police after you break up with them. Listen from about 10min50sec. Some insights into Labor there I suggest.






Thats right smithy - its not right to dob in someone you broke up with but its OK to have affairs with married men (multiple times).


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> The economic skeleton in Labor's closet continues to rattle.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...continue-to-fall/story-e6frg926-1226515776583





Hmmm... I wonder why S&G are deciding to destroy all their old files now? 
Is there some pressure from the highest office in the land?





http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...u_scandal_slater_gordon_deny_gillards_excuse/


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Don't think allowing priests to marry would help
> The church is a haven for pedophiles and sex offenders



It would help in that normal life experiences (including with sex) would help facilitate and maintain an appropriate culture. 

The removal of the current crop of offending clergy is also a critical foundation for the necessary cultural change.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> It would help in that normal life experiences (including with sex) would help facilitate and maintain an appropriate culture.
> The removal of the current crop of offending clergy is also a critical foundation for the necessary cultural change.



Can't disagree Dr Zacchary. Go to a Mass, it's all old folks. Force-marched as a kid, it was all in Latin, the priest with his back to the congregation. Fall into line, or it's a one-way ticket to Hell. Down there with Robert Johnson, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix and Cliff Richard. Sorry Keith Richards. 

Anachronism is the word that comes to mind. Amongst others.


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> Thats right smithy - its not right to dob in someone you broke up with but its OK to have affairs with married men (multiple times).



After last night's performance, Mark Latham is still digging, both for himself and Julia Gillard.



> - that no proven crime could have been reported to the police by Gillard. (That’s not the test, Mark. No crime is ever “proven” when it’s being reported to the police, as I tried to tell him. Only complaints or suspicions of possible criminal activity are reported. Then it’s up to the police and the courts. Incidentally, Latham ignored the apparent duty of Gillard to also notify the AWU.)




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ments/dear_afr_editor_about_your_mark_latham/


----------



## sptrawler

Abbott just needs to do a bit of research on this McTernan person, Labor are using. As our Julia said awhile back he or she is taking Australian election campaigning to a different level.
It is a case of the coalition adapting, by the way have you noticed Gillards strine is dissapearing. LOL
The Libs have to accept the old school of wear your heart on your sleeve and let the electorate decide, is comming to an end.
We are now entering the era of tell them any crap and more fool them if they swallow it. To me it would appear Labor have a massive head start in this genre, obviously Thomson made his run too early. 
It would be prudent for the Liberal machine, to check how English election preamble is carried out.


----------



## drsmith

More trouble for Julia ?



> The disclosure by Wayne Hem forms part of a contemporaneous and confidential 150-plus-page diary that was kept by the then AWU joint national secretary, Ian Cambridge, now a Fair Work Australia commissioner.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...to-julia-gillard/story-fng5kxvh-1226516225346


----------



## dutchie

Julia got a nice tip from Brucie


----------



## DB008

I think that Gillard has some skeletons in her closet that are starting to rattle....


----------



## DB008

*Another backflip.......*



*AND*



> Consortium pulls plug on $1.2bn solar energy project
> 
> THE Solar Dawn Consortium has confirmed it no longer plans to develop its beleaguered Western Downs facility, dashing any hopes of resurrecting the nation's largest solar energy project.
> 
> The $1.2 billion Solar Dawn project - which was to begin construction of a 250 megawatt solar thermal power plant near Chinchilla in 2013 - was dealt a blow earlier this year when the Newman Government pulled out $75 million in funding.
> 
> About 300 new jobs were expected to be created as a result of the project, along with indirect support for as many as 100 jobs.
> 
> A statement posted on the Solar Dawn website confirmed the Consortium was no longer ``pursuing development'' of the facility.
> 
> "The Solar Dawn Consortium has today confirmed that although it remains committed to Australia's large-scale concentrated solar power industry (CSP), it will no longer be pursuing development of its proposed 250MW solar thermal power facility in South-West Queensland,'' it said.
> 
> "The announcement follows extensive discussions with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) on options to move the project forward in response to dynamic market conditions.''
> 
> Comment from the Federal Minister for Resources, Martin Ferguson, has been sought.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/consortium-pulls-plug-on-12bn-solar-energy-project/story-e6frg6n6-1226515184293





Well, call me stupid, but introducing a Carbon Tax and repeatedly harping on about Climate Change/Global Warming (hell, there is even a Climate Change Minister - Greg Combet), then cancelling this project, is just taking the piss on the whole issue. What a joke this Government is.


----------



## dutchie

DB008 said:


> *Another backflip.......*
> 
> 
> 
> *AND*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, call me stupid, but introducing a Carbon Tax and repeatedly harping on about Climate Change/Global Warming (hell, there is even a Climate Change Minister - Greg Combet), then cancelling this project, is just taking the piss on the whole issue. What a joke this Government is.


----------



## dutchie

Slipper
Thompson
Williamson
Obeid
Roxon
Shorten
Macdonald
Roozendaal
Gillard

Wake up Australia


----------



## moXJO

dutchie said:


> Slipper
> Thompson
> Williamson
> Obeid
> Roxon
> Shorten
> Macdonald
> Roozendaal
> Gillard
> 
> Wake up Australia



Don't forget Tripodi
It took NSW idiot voters forever to dump labor. Realistically liberals couldn't get their act together for a long time which made matters worse.
This is just the tip of the iceberg imo. There is a backlog of corruption that happened in NSW that will simply be covered over.


----------



## MrBurns

Anyone seen the front page of the Herald Sun ?

Photo of Tim Mathieson holding a toy dog and looking as gay as anyone I've ever seen.

Interview says he does Gillards hair each morning brings her tea then watches TV, draws her bath and so on.

Are they trying to tell us something because there seems to be a strong message there.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Anyone seen the front page of the Herald Sun ?
> 
> Photo of Tim Mathieson holding a toy dog and looking as gay as anyone I've ever seen.
> 
> Interview says he does Gillards hair each morning brings her tea then watches TV, draws her bath and so on.
> 
> Are they trying to tell us something because there seems to be a strong message there.




Don't worry about the Herald Sun, it was also a half page in Townsville Daily Bulletin. After he has done Julia's hair every morning for her daily camera shoot, he puts his feet up and watches TV for the rest of the day at tax payers expense. 

What a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> Anyone seen the front page of the Herald Sun ?
> Photo of Tim Mathieson holding a toy dog and looking as gay as anyone I've ever seen.
> Interview says he does Gillards hair each morning brings her tea then watches TV, draws her bath and so on.
> Are they trying to tell us something because there seems to be a strong message there.



All perfectly innocent I'm sure Burnsy. In the photo did Tim have a beard. 

A brawny, blue-singleted, colourfully spoken builder may equally have claimed the PM's heart, it's just the way these things go.


----------



## Knobby22

I thought this guy I knew was gay but then I found out that not only did he have 6 kids and was anything but.
You can't tell, we are all different (i'm not).


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> All perfectly innocent I'm sure Burnsy. In the photo did Tim have a beard.
> 
> A brawny, blue-singleted, colourfully spoken builder may equally have claimed the PM's heart, it's just the way these things go.




Poor clueless bastard must have beem set up, no beard but a big girly grin holding a little toy dog, hilarious really, those Herald Sun people must have a good laugh over it.
Looks more feminine ths John Michael Howson.


----------



## McLovin

MrBurns said:


> Anyone seen the front page of the Herald Sun ?
> 
> Photo of Tim Mathieson holding a toy dog and looking as gay as anyone I've ever seen.
> 
> Interview says he does Gillards hair each morning brings her tea then watches TV, draws her bath and so on.
> 
> Are they trying to tell us something because there seems to be a strong message there.




People in glass houses Burnsie.


----------



## sptrawler

You're all just a bunch of myson, misonog, you're just bl@@dy sexist, leave Timmy alone.

It is a well known fact women are expecting too much of their men, in the bedroom, men are left feeling inadequate. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/socie...-too-much-from-men-in-bed-20121114-29cgb.html

Gillards rant didn't help men deal with this touchy subject either. I found it quite thoughtless on her part.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> People in glass houses Burnsie.
> 
> View attachment 49661




Ahh the Christmas party of 98'


----------



## IFocus

MrBurns said:


> Ahh the Christmas party of 98'




Crack me up MrBurns nice come back


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> You're all just a bunch of myson, misonog, you're just bl@@dy sexist, leave Timmy alone.
> 
> It is a well known fact women are expecting too much of their men, in the bedroom, men are left feeling inadequate.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/socie...-too-much-from-men-in-bed-20121114-29cgb.html
> 
> Gillards rant didn't help men deal with this touchy subject either. I found it quite thoughtless on her part.



Oh god, so now Ms Gillard is responsible for men who feel sexually inadequate.
I am almost starting to feel sorry for her.


----------



## Ves

Oh dear as if misogyny was not enough the misandry has started!!


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> Oh dear as if misogyny was not enough the misandry has started!!



I'm hoping it's all pretty much in fun, Ves.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Oh god, so now Ms Gillard is responsible for men who feel sexually inadequate.
> I am almost starting to feel sorry for her.




I sympathise, with Timmy, I'm whipped into submission by a cutting tonque constantly.


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> Oh dear as if misogyny was not enough the misandry has started!!




Good call, Vespuria, I just googled misandry( I should have stayed at school longer). Abbott should jump up next opportunity and repeat Gillards words throwing in misandry instead of misogyny. That would be a real hoot.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> I'm hoping it's all pretty much in fun, Ves.



I don't think I've ever actually heard a real-life misandry claim.


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Anyone seen the front page of the Herald Sun ?
> 
> Photo of Tim Mathieson holding a toy dog and looking as gay as anyone I've ever seen.
> 
> Interview says he does Gillards hair each morning brings her tea then watches TV, draws her bath and so on.
> 
> Are they trying to tell us something because there seems to be a strong message there.





I don't know what Julia sees in Tim. I mean to say he's not married!


----------



## basilio

I don't think The Hun has ever been known for trying to cast Julia Gillard or much else in the ALP in a good light.  This piece of fluff on Tim Mathieson falls into that category.

Anyway if was Julia and had to put up with the high powered sxxx she does every day (not to mention the routine abuse ) the thought of coming home to a nice bath and an uncomplicated loving partner would look very attractive.

He's probably very good in the sack...(pure speculation )

And  please - lets not pretend any of us have*any* idea of the quality and depth of their relationship.


----------



## Calliope

basilio said:


> I don't think The Hun has ever been known for trying to cast Julia Gillard or much else in the ALP in a good light.  This piece of fluff on Tim Mathieson falls into that category.
> 
> Anyway if was Julia and had to put up with the high powered sxxx she does every day (not to mention the routine abuse ) the thought of coming home to a nice bath and an uncomplicated loving partner would look very attractive.
> 
> He's probably very good in the sack...(pure speculation )
> 
> And  please - lets not pretend any of us have*any* idea of the quality and depth of their relationship.




He is actually her prisoner. If he steps out of line as resident hair dresser and bath puller, or looks at his watch when she's talking, she will brand him as a misogynist...as he does with males who get offside with her. 

In the old days he would have been called a gigolo.


----------



## MrBurns

basilio said:


> And  please - lets not pretend any of us have*any* idea of the quality and depth of their relationship.




The mere thought of what goes on there sends me straight to the whisky cabinet.


----------



## noco

More workers will soon be on the dole.

We might see unemploment reach 6% next year.

We might even catch up to the  Yanks.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ead-innes-willox/story-fn59noo3-1226517755299


----------



## Julia

basilio said:


> I don't think The Hun has ever been known for trying to cast Julia Gillard or much else in the ALP in a good light.  This piece of fluff on Tim Mathieson falls into that category.



You might like to be a bit more careful about what you write.  I had never heard of "The Hun", so googled it, and this is what came up:
http://www.thehun.net/
I hardly think you want the object of your admiration, viz Ms Gillard, to be associated with with such sleaze.



> He's probably very good in the sack...(pure speculation )



Oh god, and you criticise others for "fluff".  Can't believe you wrote such tripe.



> And  please - lets not pretend any of us have*any* idea of the quality and depth of their relationship.



None of anyone's business except to the extent that the taxpayer is funding his existence.
Personally, I can't imagine why anyone is even remotely interested in contemplating Ms Gillard's intimate life if indeed such exists.


----------



## Ferret

Julia said:


> None of anyone's business except to the extent that the taxpayer is funding his existence.




Any one know if this is correct?  Is there a government allowance for a PM's partner.  I always thought they would just live from the salary that their PM partner brought in, or any independant income of their own.


----------



## JTLP

Julia said:


> You might like to be a bit more careful about what you write.  I had never heard of "The Hun", so googled it, and this is what came up:
> http://www.thehun.net/.




Hey Julia,

Basilio is actually referring to the "Herald Sun" - tabloid newspaper of Vic. It's what the locals like to call it


----------



## sptrawler

Ferret said:


> Any one know if this is correct?  Is there a government allowance for a PM's partner.  I always thought they would just live from the salary that their PM partner brought in, or any independant income of their own.




He's probably just managing to get by on a spouse pension.LOL


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> You might like to be a bit more careful about what you write.  I had never heard of "The Hun", so googled it, and this is what came up:
> http://www.thehun.net/
> I hardly think you want the object of your admiration, viz Ms Gillard, to be associated with with such sleaze.



Seriously Julia?  Showing the Qlder in you with this vacuous attack...


----------



## moXJO

Who is covering up for Gillard?
So far we have had lies from the PM, documents going missing and a law firm suddenly bringing in a shredding past documents policy. We then have certain members of the media ,Oaks and Cassidy to name a few praising Gillards ability to spin her way out of it. Destroying all the evidence and then saying 'Im innocent there is no proof' stinks of some kind of cover up.
From what I Hear libs have the dirt and will unlesh it come election time. The sad fact is labor needs a massive clean out.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Who is covering up for Gillard?



More files go missing.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...files-go-missing/story-fng5kxvh-1226518442755


----------



## Calliope

The bath thing is an old Welsh tradition. When the head of the house comes home from the mines the housewife has his bath ready and she scrubs him clean. It would probably take more effort to clean up Julia than a miner though. 



> DOMESTIC bliss. Neil Mitchell, 3AW, yesterday:
> 
> THE Gillard government spin has reached a new level, and it is insulting stuff. First, the government called in a magazine to interview the female ministers only, where they were asked questions about their sex drive amongst other things. Terrific. Now, the first bloke Tim Mathieson has been trotted out for an interview and he sounds like the old-fashioned wife. If there was a male prime minister with his wife like this, there would be screams of outrage. Tim gets up in the morning, does the Prime Minister's hair and then sits on the couch watching TV. He regularly pours her bath when she gets home and brings her a cup of tea in the morning.* Imagine if Tony Abbott's wife said that was how their relationship worked. He'd be portrayed as the old-fashioned sexist with the mousy little wife.*


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> Seriously Julia?  Showing the Qlder in you with this vacuous attack...



I'm happy to admit to ignorance of slang that exists in another State.
Not sure how that defines me, via 'vacuous' as


> lacking in ideas or intelligence: a vacuous mind. 3. expressing or characterized by a lack of ideas or intelligence; inane; stupid: a vacuous book. 4. purposeless ...



However, if insults make you feel better, vesupria, then keep firing them this way.



moXJO said:


> Who is covering up for Gillard?
> So far we have had lies from the PM, documents going missing and a law firm suddenly bringing in a shredding past documents policy. We then have certain members of the media ,Oaks and Cassidy to name a few praising Gillards ability to spin her way out of it. Destroying all the evidence and then saying 'Im innocent there is no proof' stinks of some kind of cover up.
> From what I Hear libs have the dirt and will unlesh it come election time. The sad fact is labor needs a massive clean out.






drsmith said:


> More files go missing.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...files-go-missing/story-fng5kxvh-1226518442755



The cover-up is starting to look pretty blatant.
Hope you're right about the Libs having the truth, moXJO.


----------



## McLovin

Can someone explain what the Hun, is Gillard now considered German?


----------



## Julia

McLovin said:


> Can someone explain what the Hun, is Gillard now considered German?




See above, McLovin.  Unless Ves applies a different definition to you, the question defines you as being 'vacuous'.


----------



## Miss Hale

McLovin said:


> Can someone explain what the Hun, is Gillard now considered German?




The Hun is simply a colloquial term for one of our Melbourne newspapers, the Herald Sun.  It's usually referred to as the Hun by it's detractors, like The Age is sometimes referred to as The Rage   The Herald Sun is a Murdoch paper and leans to the right (to the extent that it is political at all, it's a tabloid) and The Age is owned by Fairfax and is left leaning.

(In case you are wondering, the Herald Sun obtained its rather cumbersome name when two papers merged; the morning paper called The Sun and the evening paper called The Herald)


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> See above, McLovin.  Unless Ves applies a different definition to you, the question defines you as being 'vacuous'.



Carefully read the definition of the word vacuous.

Then read my post again.

I didn't call you vacuous,  I called your attack vacuous.

Clearly reading comprehension is not up your alley this morning?

What was it that you said:



> You might like to be a bit more careful about what you write.




I mean, you accuse someone of associating Gillard to a sleazy website - without bothering to clarify what the original poster said and you are surprised with the retort? I thought it was a vacuous attack on the poster - so I called it as I saw it.

You can stop with the persecution mania now - it was the post you made, not you that I took issue with.


----------



## DB008

drsmith said:


> More files go missing.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...files-go-missing/story-fng5kxvh-1226518442755




This weekends AFR (Nov 17-18, Weekend Edition), Page 22, Perspective, "The ugly years" gives more perspective into how corrupt the ALP (on a state level) are.


----------



## Julia

JTLP said:


> Hey Julia,
> 
> Basilio is actually referring to the "Herald Sun" - tabloid newspaper of Vic. It's what the locals like to call it






Miss Hale said:


> The Hun is simply a colloquial term for one of our Melbourne newspapers, the Herald Sun.  It's usually referred to as the Hun by it's detractors, like The Age is sometimes referred to as The Rage   The Herald Sun is a Murdoch paper and leans to the right (to the extent that it is political at all, it's a tabloid) and The Age is owned by Fairfax and is left leaning.
> 
> (In case you are wondering, the Herald Sun obtained its rather cumbersome name when two papers merged; the morning paper called The Sun and the evening paper called The Herald)



Thank you JTLP and Miss Hale for polite explanation.   Others might copy your example.

Ves, if you want an example of 'vacuous', how about this?


> He's probably very good in the sack...(pure speculation )




In fairness, though, such a tasteless remark is not typical of Basilio.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> Ves, if you want an example of 'vacuous', how about this?
> 
> 
> In fairness, though, such a tasteless remark is not typical of Basilio.



That post is also a good example - but I did not point it out at the time because I did feel strongly enough about it.  You on the other hand openly posted a link to a smut website. I found it offensive.

I cannot believe I have to explain myself - as if it is me that crossed the invisible line of public standards.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> That post is also a good example - but I did not point it out at the time because I did feel strongly enough about it.



Fine. I, however, did.



> You on the other hand openly posted a link to a smut website. I found it offensive.



I simply said that I googled "The Hun" and quoted what came up at the top of the page.  Seems quite reasonable to me.     I couldn't agree more that the website was offensive.  That's why I questioned it.



> I cannot believe I have to explain myself



You don't.  It's entirely your choice as to whether you respond to posts or not.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> That's why I questioned it.



I don't think pr0n / smut websites make comments about Australian politicians, Julia.


----------



## sptrawler

Jeez vespurian, I thought this was a thread about the Gillard government(If you could call it that)
Not a platform for you to parade your prowess of the English language, lets try and stay on topic.
I personally don't want the forum to become an internet English class, I'm sure I would fail.


----------



## sptrawler

It is going to be interesting to see how the budget goes with interest rates down to approx 3-4%. Pensioners having to draw down a minimum 3% on their super, 4% after July next year.
It doesn't look good for the financial drain on the old age pension as pensioners savings are eroded and they qualify for more government pension. 
Don't worry Labor and the union run industry funds will come up something. I bet we won't like it.

It is a laugh really, give away money on stupid schemes, in the name of saving jobs. 
Then 3 years later introduce taxes, that cost jobs, to pay back the money you gave away earlier, in the name of saving jobs. 
It rings of stupidity.
Whoever wins the next election has inherited a huge problem.LOL
Worlds Greatest Treasurer. LOL


----------



## DB008

It's all about 2 words right now, "Budget" and "Surplus".

Forget about people's health and wellbeing...



> Federal Government criticised over delay of new heart and stroke drug Pradaxa
> 
> The outcome of that inquiry has still not been made public and there are growing concerns the Government is trying to delay subsidising the drug, at a cost of about $250 million a year, so it can balance its Budget.




Link - http://tiny.cc/uk5znw


----------



## red123nz

Get the feeling that at all costs they will have a budget surplus - even if its just on paper?


----------



## drsmith

Polls this week have also showed that the government's recent cliimb in the polls has stalled at 53/47 2PP in favour of the Coalition.

That's despite Tony Abbott as opposition leader being less popular than ever.

Labor's race horse is still as dead as ever.



red123nz said:


> Get the feeling that at all costs they will have a budget surplus - even if its just on paper?



They will call an election before admitting to a headline deficit.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Polls this week have also showed that the government's recent cliimb in the polls has stalled at 53/47 2PP in favour of the Coalition.
> 
> That's despite Tony Abbott as opposition leader being less popular than ever.
> 
> Labor's race horse is still as dead as ever.
> 
> 
> They will call an election before admitting to a headline deficit.




They keep giving the "dead horse" an injection, Julia's spray, call a royal commission. 
But it is really not working, people have already decided a vote for Labor is a vote for the loonies.LOL
You make your bed, you lie in it.


----------



## noco

Heard a news flash on one of the radio stations yesterday, someone is supposed to have a copy of the Gillard missing files.
We might find out soon what she had to hide!!!!!!!


----------



## noco

noco said:


> Heard a news flash on one of the radio stations yesterday, someone is supposed to have a copy of the Gillard missing files.
> We might find out soon what she had to hide!!!!!!!




Wow! looks like we might see some action very shortly. 

Ms. Gillard must be worried about these new events on the horizon.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ments/awu_scandal_files_found_others_missing/


----------



## drsmith

> THE federal independent MP Rob Oakeshott has declared the mining tax ''unsustainable'' and said unless federal and state governments sort out the dispute over royalties, the tax must be brought back to Parliament and amended.




Dear Mr Oakshott,

   Julia Gillard did a deal with the big three miners in order to secure a deal, any deal, for a snap election.  The shattered peices of that deal don't need to be picked up. They need to be swept away, along with the government you are supporting to its political death.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-must-be-fixed--oakeshott-20121120-29o2e.html


----------



## Julia

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3638132.htm



> Former Australian Worker's Union official Ralph Blewitt's return to Australia has put the slush fund scandal around Prime Minister Julia Gillard back on centrestage, and we hear from him why he thinks it sohuld be there.




ABC TV has promised more on this in tomorrow's "7.30".


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3638132.htm
> 
> ABC TV has promised more on this in tomorrow's "7.30".



I think this is about to blow......................, big time.


----------



## dutchie

Irrespective of what Ralph Blewitt discloses, considering all the facts known to date, it is obvious that, *Julia Gillard is not a fit person to be the Prime Minister of Australia*.


----------



## Calliope

It's not an easy life being a handbag.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> It's not an easy life being a handbag.



Is he sitting on a seat of nails ?

He looks very uncomfortable in that setting. Perhaps he's been told to be by Julia Gillard's side at such events.

Another who looked uncomfortable last night, even with the soft questioning from Tony Jones,  

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3638187.htm


----------



## Calliope

Tim should get Julia to make a state visit to France. Australia's First Boyfriend could get some tips from Frances's First Girlfriend.



> SHE was banished from the French presidential website when her refusal to take a back-seat role after her partner, Francois Hollande, became head of state in May went down badly with the public.
> 
> Now Valerie Trierweiler is to return after a PR makeover designed to transform her into a traditional First Lady - all smiles, charity work and playing second fiddle to her man. The new Ms Trierweiler told French radio yesterday that it had been a great pleasure to answer the 170 letters she had received last month, and that she was planning to organise gala dinners for an association fighting poverty and to raise awareness about AIDS.
> 
> Her comments represented a notable change of tone for a woman who said in one of her first public statements: "I am discovering what is expected of the First Lady... she kisses sick children and looks after the dinner menus. And that revolts me."




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nd-revamps-image/story-fnb64oi6-1226521939108


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> I think this is about to blow......................, big time.




Doc, Miss Houdini can get out of anything including being in a straight jacket, tied to a block of concrete and droped into a swimming pool.

She will do in two minutes flat.


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> Doc, Miss Houdini can get out of anything including being in a straight jacket, tied to a block of concrete and droped into a swimming pool.




Dunno maybe that theory should be tested...........


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Dunno maybe that theory should be tested...........




LOL


----------



## Sean K

This Fitzroy apartment deal could bring her down. Stinking more and more. 



> *Bank letter links PM to union mortgage*
> 
> November 22, 2012 - 7:16PM
> Mark Baker
> 
> The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, told her law firm partners she knew nothing about the mortgage on a Fitzroy property, bought partly with union money stolen by her former boyfriend, despite having been involved in the mortgage arrangements for the property two years earlier.
> 
> A 1993 bank letter confirms that Ms Gillard - then a salaried partner with law firm Slater & Gordon - received an insurance certificate of currency, which was required for approval of a $150,000 mortgage provided by the firm's loan department.
> 
> But Ms Gillard denied knowledge of the mortgage when challenged by the firm's managing partners in late 1995, after they first discovered her involvement in the work.
> 
> "I don't, I don't think I knew that at the time," she told senior partner Peter Gordon, according to new details of the interview obtained by The Age.
> 
> A West Australian fraud squad investigation in 1996 found the rest of the purchase money - more than $100,000 - had been siphoned from a union association by Bruce Wilson, Ms Gillard's then boyfriend and a senior Australian Workers Union official.
> 
> The unit in Kerr Street, Fitzroy, was bought in the name of Ralph Blewitt, a union crony of Mr Wilson who this week returned to Melbourne from his home in Malaysia to brief Victorian police, who are considering whether to reopen their investigation into the scandal.
> 
> In the newly-released details of her September 1995 meeting with Mr Gordon, Ms Gillard - after being questioned in detail about her work for Wilson and Blewitt - denies any knowledge of the Fitzroy mortgage.
> 
> Peter Gordon: "Were you aware at any time that the balance of the funds to make up the capital was to be provided by contributory mortgage of which Jonathan Rothfield (a Slater & Gordon partner) was trustee?"
> 
> Julia Gillard: "I don't, I don't think I knew that at the time, where the source of funds was. It's subsequently been raised with me that that was done through the Slater & Gordon mortgage register but I didn't have any recollection of that."




Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...on-mortgage-20121122-29ssd.html#ixzz2CwFswFDn

Anyone have a summary of factual events around this?


----------



## sails

kennas said:


> This Fitzroy apartment deal could bring her down. Stinking more and more.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...on-mortgage-20121122-29ssd.html#ixzz2CwFswFDn
> 
> Anyone have a summary of factual events around this?




Kennas, Michael Smith has a lot on his website - so much it is a little difficult to navigate now.  Michael lost his job as a radio presenter when he was running on this story.  It seems there was a phone call from the PM and he was out of a job.  He has since been using his police detective abilities plus the time he has free to devote himself to getting to the bottom of this thing.

Michael's website: http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/


----------



## MrBurns

Get a load of this Nick Styant Brown is talking, must watch Lateline tonight, I missed the 7:30 report.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-22/lawyer-claims-discrepancy-in-pm-slush-fund-explanation/4387224


----------



## noco

Maybe the coalition has a new strategy to handle the misogyny crap. 

The battle of the spouses. Tim versus Margie      

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-of-the-spouses/story-fnahw9xv-1226521528734


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Get a load of this Nick Styant Brown is talking, must watch Lateline tonight, I missed the 7:30 report.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-22/lawyer-claims-discrepancy-in-pm-slush-fund-explanation/4387224



Fairfax exclusive. 



> A Commonwealth Bank letter sent to Ms Gillard on March 22, 1993, shows she was involved in the property's insurance, a prerequisite for the mortgage.
> 
> Addressed "Attention: Julia Gillard" and headed "Certificate of Currency", the letter from the bank's insurance department confirms the Kerr Street unit had been insured in the name of Ralph E. Blewitt.
> 
> "In accordance with your request, we advise the building/s are insured for $200,000 with the Commonwealth Bank Insurance Scheme and the policy is renewed until 18th March 1994," it says.
> 
> On the same day the letter was sent, a handwritten note in the file headed "Bruce Wilson" refers to the certificate of currency from the Commonwealth Bank and adds: "Ralph spoke to Julia Gillard".
> 
> The 400-page conveyancing file also shows that Ms Gillard waived professional fees on the conveyancing and loan work, sought and received a detailed briefing on penalty interest provisions for the mortgage and forwarded a cheque from Mr Blewitt for costs associated with the purchase.




http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...inks-pm-to-house-mortgage-20121122-29ssd.html


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Fairfax exclusive.
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...inks-pm-to-house-mortgage-20121122-29ssd.html




After the Styant-Brown interview her office just denied everything, wonder what it will take to bring her to account.


----------



## Miss Hale

This AWU thing really is starting to stink to high heaven.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Get a load of this Nick Styant Brown is talking, must watch Lateline tonight, I missed the 7:30 report.
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-22/lawyer-claims-discrepancy-in-pm-slush-fund-explanation/4387224



Essentially Nick Styant Brown asserted that Ms Gillard had knowledge of the matter, including arranging the mortgage insurance, in 1993, whereas she claims she knew nothing about it until 1995.
In substantiation, a copy of a letter to Julia Gillard from the CBA in 1993 seems to prove his point, i.e. that she has been untruthful.

Presumably she will now just claim faulty memory.


----------



## So_Cynical

Julia said:


> Essentially Nick Styant Brown asserted that Ms Gillard had knowledge of the matter, including arranging the mortgage insurance, in 1993, whereas she claims she knew nothing about it until 1995.
> In substantiation, a copy of a letter to Julia Gillard from the CBA in 1993 seems to prove his point, i.e. that she has been untruthful.
> 
> Presumably she will now just claim faulty memory.




Claiming she didn't see the fax even though it was marked for her attention, and that the union guy actually handled all that and was the contact person with the CBA.

Somewhat plausible.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Get a load of this Nick Styant Brown is talking, must watch Lateline tonight, I missed the 7:30 report.
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-22/lawyer-claims-discrepancy-in-pm-slush-fund-explanation/4387224




As Townsville has the 7.30 report an hour later than the south, I made sure I watched the interview.

Nick has proof that Gillard has lied about the timing of events in 1993 and 1995. Of course we all know what a compulsive liar she is and has been in the past. So what is new with this Prime Minister of ours.


----------



## bellenuit

Although Gillard claimed today that she never saw the letter from the Commonwealth Bank, the contents of the letter indicate that she was involved. Note this in the letter (my emphasis):

_"*In accordance with your request*, we advise the building/s are insured for $200,000 with the Commonwealth Bank Insurance Scheme and the policy is renewed until 18th March 1994,"_

So even though she may deny she saw the response, the letter clearly states that it was Gillard who requested the insurance status. 

I wonder if CBA keeps all correspondence on file so that Gillard's request can be unearthed. I'm sure the response letter must have some reference number linking back to Gillard's request letter (assuming it wasn't verbal), even if it just a date.


----------



## bellenuit

Since this most recent revelation is being aired on the 7:30 Report, does that mean the ABC are now taking up the matter after ignoring it for weeks?


----------



## noco

bellenuit said:


> Since this most recent revelation is being aired on the 7:30 Report, does that mean the ABC are now taking up the matter after ignoring it for weeks?




I don't think the ABC had any alternative but to pursue it. They would have shown deliberate political bias had they not mentioned it.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> Claiming she didn't see the fax even though it was marked for her attention, and that the union guy actually handled all that and was the contact person with the CBA.
> 
> Somewhat plausible.




Yep, very much like, someone borrowed my union funded credit card for bedroom gymnastics.LOL


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> Although Gillard claimed today that she never saw the letter from the Commonwealth Bank, the contents of the letter indicate that she was involved. Note this in the letter (my emphasis):
> 
> _"*In accordance with your request*, we advise the building/s are insured for $200,000 with the Commonwealth Bank Insurance Scheme and the policy is renewed until 18th March 1994,"_
> 
> So even though she may deny she saw the response, the letter clearly states that it was Gillard who requested the insurance status.



Unless she can substantially discredit this, she's finished as PM. Her fingerprints have been identified on the cookie jar.

The editors of the major papers will be working double time to get their commentary out for the Friday issue. I can't imagine there will be much sleep amongst Labor's senior ranks tonight either.


----------



## bellenuit

An interview late today with Ralph Blewitt

http://www.2gb.com/article/ralph-blewitt-speaks


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> I don't think the ABC had any alternative but to pursue it. They would have shown deliberate political bias had they not mentioned it.




Not a mention on Lateline but still headlines on the ABC web site they really need to find the clerk who supposedly handled the matter
In any case I think the Libs now have enough evidence to continue driving the stake in


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> Get a load of this Nick Styant Brown is talking, must watch Lateline tonight, I missed the 7:30 report. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-22/lawyer-claims-discrepancy-in-pm-slush-fund-explanation/4387224



This got published on the ABC? Might be a few 'Please explains' going around the corridors at Aunty today. 'PM's office on the phone for you' ..gulp.   

Kevin Rudd like a Cheshire cat, and who could blame him in the circumstances.



> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-22/lawyer-claims-discrepancy-in-pm-slush-fund-explanation/4387224
> 
> ...Mr Styant-Browne claims Ms Gillard said she did not know about a Slater and Gordon mortgage for the house until August 1995, even though a fax from the Commonwealth Bank regarding the property was sent to her in 1993.
> 
> "There is absolutely no doubt that Ms Gillard knew of the Slater and Gordon mortgage in March of 1993, but was specifically involved in taking steps to facilitate that mortgage," he said....
> 
> ...Mr Styant-Browne says he was concerned by the fact Ms Gillard did not open a file when helping create the slush fund, and he says her personal relationship with Mr Wilson was not disclosed to him..


----------



## bigdog

Interview with Bill Shorten, Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 21/11/2012
Reporter: Tony Jones

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3638187.htm

Bill Shorten also known as BS (Bull S**t)
-- is he telling the truth?
-- usually a smart confident speaker
-- this interview very quiet and carefully chosen words with shrt answers!!


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Not a mention on Lateline but still headlines on the ABC web site they really need to find the clerk who supposedly handled the matter



The CBA latterhead has her name on it, so she was responsible for more than she was saying.

She can't claim ignorance by her office saying she can't recall the letter. Whether or not she directly handled the paperwork herself or delegated that to a junior within the firm, she accepted responsiblity for it and hence knew what was going on.


----------



## drsmith

bigdog said:


> Interview with Bill Shorten, Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
> 
> -- this interview very quiet and carefully chosen words with shrt answers!!




His responses started out very much like a teenager who didn't want to say too much.


----------



## moXJO

It could be a bad thing for libs if Rudd got back in now. There is still time to turn it around before people remember why he got kicked out in the first place


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> It could be a bad thing for libs if Rudd got back in now. There is still time to turn it around before people remember why he got kicked out in the first place




I'd like to see Rudd back in and lose anyway, that way Gillard would get what she deserves, and let's face it the Karma train is heading her way at full speed.


----------



## dutchie

Another brilliant decision by this government.

_Govt must reverse cut to chemo drug funding: Xenophon_

Independent senator Nick Xenophon is demanding the federal government reverse a decision to cut funding for chemotherapy drugs.

"The government has miscalculated this completely," he told reporters in Canberra 


http://www.businessspectator.com.au...chemo-cut-Xenophon-28UAX?OpenDocument&src=hp7


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> The CBA latterhead has her name on it, so she was responsible for more than she was saying.
> 
> She can't claim ignorance by her office saying she can't recall the letter. Whether or not she directly handled the paperwork herself or delegated that to a junior within the firm, she accepted responsiblity for it and hence knew what was going on.




I agree. If she didn't see it she should have so to deny she has seen it or knew what was going on makes her look sloppy and incompetant...or she is lying.  Neither is a good look.


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> It could be a bad thing for libs if Rudd got back in now. There is still time to turn it around before people remember why he got kicked out in the first place



Yes.  Be careful what you wish for.   Tony Abbott has a much greater chance of winning against Gillard than against Rudd.



Miss Hale said:


> I agree. If she didn't see it she should have so to deny she has seen it or knew what was going on makes her look sloppy and incompetant...or she is lying.  Neither is a good look.



Agreed.  But I'm not sure that either a 'faulty memory' or sloppy administration nearly 20 years ago before she entered politics would be enough to see her resign or lose the confidence of her colleagues.

There may be more to emerge, however, about this whole affair.


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> I agree. If she didn't see it she should have so to deny she has seen it or knew what was going on makes her look sloppy and incompetant...or she is lying.  Neither is a good look.




It's scary how the ABC culture works. Commentators who should know better, are so inured to Labor/Union skulldruggery that they think Gillard has no case to answer. This applies to Barrie Cassidy, Jon Faine, Leigh Sales, Sabra Lane et al. 

What ever happened to investigative journalism?


----------



## Logique

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nat...to-prepare-for-march-poll-20121123-29z9l.html



> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nat...to-prepare-for-march-poll-20121123-29z9l.html
> 
> The Canberra bureaucracy is being primed for a federal election to be possibly held early next year.
> 
> But political insiders say there are major obstacles and far too many risks for the government in sending Australians back to the polls too soon.
> 
> Public service departments are being directed to bring work forward and clear backlogs in preparation for an early campaign.
> 
> Fairfax Media understands Saturday, *March 16*, has been mooted within government as a possible election date...


----------



## Calliope

It will be interesting to see tomorrow if Barrie Cassidy has an epitome.


----------



## waza1960

> The Canberra bureaucracy is being primed for a federal election to be possibly held early next year.




    I think its inevitable that an election will be held early next year.Labor can't afford to wait until its mismanagement is truely exposed. i.e......
            A mining tax which will be proven to be ineffective.
            A budget surplus that never was. etc etc etc:bad:


----------



## sptrawler

waza1960 said:


> I think its inevitable that an election will be held early next year.Labor can't afford to wait until its mismanagement is truely exposed. i.e......
> A mining tax which will be proven to be ineffective.
> A budget surplus that never was. etc etc etc:bad:




Yes my take on it, tonque in cheek is, the A.B.C, SMH and AGE reporters will be saying
Reporter to base, "we are recieving a lot of heavy flack, the allegations are coming thick and fast."
Base to reporter, "you must keep the line, if we go down you go down with us" over
Reporter to base"New allegations keep popping up and we have to try and BS to cover up, can you send more BS"over
"Hold the line, we are working on more BS, the pommie spin doctor is looking through his notes, appropriate BS will be forthcoming" 
Reporter to base "what happens if the BS doesn't cover the allegations, do we wing it or wait for further directions"?
Base to reporter "What was that? you are breaking up" LOL

On a serious note, I don't think Labor has a hope in hell, if there is an early election, it will be a landslide.
On the other hand, we could have a later election and I think it would be an avalanche.
Time will tell.


----------



## sptrawler

I should have just posted this to sum up Labors time in office.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/rare-swan-in-praise-of-rudd-20121124-2a00z.html

Tell me which one of those accolades is memorable or note worthy?
Or is it someone worried he might be answering to the person he $h@t on. LOL

The hand is hovering over the panic button in the Labor camp.IMO


----------



## Julia

Hmm.  Perhaps Mr Swan, anticipating Gillard's possible downfall, is paving the way for the return of our Kev?
Suddenly he's not a total b**tard, an impossible psychopath who ran a chaotic government, but the messiah who saved us from the GFC.

Will we see Roxon et al shortly revising their views of Kevvie as well?

Nothing like covering all your bases, just in case.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Hmm.  Perhaps Mr Swan, anticipating Gillard's possible downfall, is paving the way for the return of our Kev?
> Suddenly he's not a total b**tard, an impossible psychopath who ran a chaotic government, but the messiah who saved us from the GFC.
> 
> Will we see Roxon et al shortly revising their views of Kevvie as well?
> 
> Nothing like covering all your bases, just in case.




Exactly what I was thinking.
Also when you see reports like this.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...llard-didnt-know/story-fndo1uez-1226523406442

Then take it in context with what is happening with the HSU. Put that on top of union background people are looking after a lot of Australian workers superannuation = OMG. LOL

This gets better and better, what a hoot, "there is none so blind as those who don't want to see".
Never a truer statement. LOL,LOL,LOL
This will be a memorable time in our history, IMO, for all the wrong reasons.

It may be a case of old world thuggery, meets new world transparency. 
One thing for sure, telling lies will be your undoing, new world transparency will catch you out.


----------



## sptrawler

I also thought Penny Wong, Gillard and the other concerned parties Bob Brown etc were going to sort this out.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mothers-penalised-for-working-20121124-2a00y.html

Also while Bob still has some clout in Canberra, he may well answer some of these comments.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ing-aborigines-in-poverty-20121123-29yrv.html

No I don't think so, not while he is enjoying himself. Only my opinion of course.


----------



## Calliope

Did you notice the poll that came with the C-M article?

Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal?
Yes
12.31% (174 votes)
No
87.69% (1239 votes)
Total votes: 1413

Wilson has less credibility than Gillard. I'll say one thing for Julia - all her ex-lovers stay loyal.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I also thought Penny Wong, Gillard and the other concerned parties Bob Brown etc were going to sort this out.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mothers-penalised-for-working-20121124-2a00y.html



The mess of middle class welfare and means testing it on a piecemeal basis

Also while Bob still has some clout in Canberra, he may well answer some of these comments.



sptrawler said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ing-aborigines-in-poverty-20121123-29yrv.html
> 
> No I don't think so, not while he is enjoying himself. Only my opinion of course.



People are easier to rule if they are kept uneducated and poor. Not too poor though, as to invoke civil unrest.


----------



## Calliope

Tony Burke has faith in Bruce Wilson's character reference for Julia Gillard. He shares Barrie Cassidy's belief that she has no case to answer.



> Environment Minister Tony Burke argues it's time for the opposition to stop "beating up" the story concerning the prime minister's involvement in setting up a slush fund for union officials, including former boyfriend Bruce Wilson, 17 years ago.
> "From what I've looked at in today's papers, it's story over," Mr Burke told ABC TV on Sunday.
> "The big allegation of connection that the opposition hasn't been quite willing to make ... it appears the door has slammed pretty firmly shut on that."
> Mr Wilson has told media that Ms Gillard knew "knew absolutely, categorically nothing" about any wrongdoing.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-tale-burke-20121125-2a13p.html#ixzz2DBsafxBP


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Tony Burke has faith in Bruce Wilson's character reference for Julia Gillard.



Bob Carr is a little more cautious, perhaps considering the obvious flaw in the logic.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=19958&page=57&p=738610&viewfull=1#post738610


----------



## DB008

From last nights 7:30 Report


Former AWU official reacts to PM's defence

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3641352.htm

Old mate looks shady as hell.


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> From last nights 7:30 Report



Om tonight's show, Julia Gillard's former boyfriend adds his 2-bob's worth.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Om tonight's show, Julia Gillard's former boyfriend adds his 2-bob's worth.




What a dodgy piece of work he was
Wouldn't believe a word he said
The mere fact Gillard was involved with him reflects on her very badly


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> What a dodgy piece of work he was
> Wouldn't believe a word he said
> The mere fact Gillard was involved with him reflects on her very badly



I'm yet to see it, but he claims to know where the money (some of it at least) went.



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard's former partner Bruce Wilson claims his union sidekick Ralph Blewitt buried in his backyard money held by a legal entity they set up together.




http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...d-association-cash-wilson-20121127-2a60b.html

I would have thought that Labor would be discouraging him from engaging in ongoing public comment.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> I'm yet to see it, but he claims to know where the money (some of it at least) went.
> 
> 
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...d-association-cash-wilson-20121127-2a60b.html
> 
> I would have thought that Labor would be discouraging him from engaging in ongoing public comment.




Be interested in what you think after you've seen it drsmith


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Om tonight's show, Julia Gillard's former boyfriend adds his 2-bob's worth.



I cannot remember ever seeing such a nervous and uncomfortable interviewee.  I'd love to hear Alan Pease's analysis of Mr Wilson's behaviour with its inability to make eye contact with the interviewer, repetitive touching of the nose with index finger etc.

His answers were less than convincing imo, but perhaps he is simply unaccustomed to being in the public spotlight.

This affair becomes more bizarre by the day, with Mr Wilson's suggestion when asked where the money went from the eventual sale of the house, that Ralph Blewitt buried it in the back yard and then later, um, just destroyed that buried money.  Oh my goodness.

As an aside, the interview was conducted by a journalist I've not seen before, Caro Meldrum-Hanna .  She was very good.  Hope we see more of her.


----------



## Ves

Calliope said:


> Did you notice the poll that came with the C-M article?
> 
> Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal?
> Yes
> 12.31% (174 votes)
> No
> 87.69% (1239 votes)
> Total votes: 1413
> 
> Wilson has less credibility than Gillard. I'll say one thing for Julia - all her ex-lovers stay loyal.



Where is the poll that convincingly says the public think Gillard did it?  Can you please link it?

It's a contextless poll question!!!


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> I cannot remember ever seeing such a nervous and uncomfortable interviewee.  I'd love to hear Alan Pease's analysis of Mr Wilson's behaviour with its inability to make eye contact with the interviewer, repetitive touching of the nose with index finger etc.
> 
> His answers were less than convincing imo, but perhaps he is simply unaccustomed to being in the public spotlight.
> 
> This affair becomes more bizarre by the day, with Mr Wilson's suggestion when asked where the money went from the eventual sale of the house, that Ralph Blewitt buried it in the back yard and then later, um, just destroyed that buried money.  Oh my goodness.




Yes I think Julie Bishop may use this to effect.


----------



## McLovin

Calliope said:


> Did you notice the poll that came with the C-M article?
> 
> Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal?
> Yes
> 12.31% (174 votes)
> No
> 87.69% (1239 votes)
> Total votes: 1413
> 
> Wilson has less credibility than Gillard. I'll say one thing for Julia - all her ex-lovers stay loyal.




Come on those things mean zero.

http://thingsboganslike.com/2011/03/23/219-online-binary-polls/


----------



## sptrawler

Unless the coalition make some of this stick, they are going to have to make a plan B.
They don't seem to be getting much traction and the press won't help. 
I think they would be better served pushing for an inquiry into the running of unions, there is enough grounds, one would think.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> Where is the poll that convincingly says the public think Gillard did it?  Can you please link it?
> 
> It's a contextless poll question!!!



First, the validity of the methodology of such a poll renders it meaningless.
However, I don't understand your question to Calliope.  This is what he posted:


> Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal?
> Yes
> 12.31% (174 votes)
> No
> 87.69% (1239 votes)
> Total votes: 1413



No reference whatsoever to the public thinking "Gillard did it".  The question was very clear:  "Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal"?
So why would you ask such a question?


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> First, the validity of the methodology of such a poll renders it meaningless.
> However, I don't understand your question to Calliope.  This is what he posted:
> 
> No reference whatsoever to the public thinking "Gillard did it".  The question was very clear:  "Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal"?
> So why would you ask such a question?



The bit about Wilson having less credibility than Gillard (which infers she has little) and the fact that he has been kissing Liberal **** since I arrived on the forum?

No seriously, forget I asked.  I just thought it was a stupid poll to post.


----------



## Ves

Oh I see what you did there Julia.

You conveniently snipped Calliope's quote to make me look like a fool.

Seriously, screw this forum. That's just low.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Be interested in what you think after you've seen it drsmith



Commenting quickly, he was very nervous to say the least.

After seeing Julie Bishop's well running somewhat dry in parliament today, he's topped it up.


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> Oh I see what you did there Julia.
> 
> You conveniently snipped Calliope's quote to make me look like a fool.
> 
> Seriously, screw this forum. That's just low.



What on earth are you on about?  I didn't do anything 'to make you look like a fool'.
When quoting Calliope's post (in full below) I eliminated the first sentence asking if you (or anyone) had noticed the poll that came with the CM article because it was redundant to the essence of the topic.

I further eliminated Calliope's OPINION that Wilson has less credibility than Gillard because that also was not essential to your apparent objection.  And the comment about Ms Gillard's ex lovers really didn't need any more attention and was imo irrelevant to the question.



Calliope said:


> Did you notice the poll that came with the C-M article?
> 
> Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal?
> Yes
> 12.31% (174 votes)
> No
> 87.69% (1239 votes)
> Total votes: 1413
> 
> Wilson has less credibility than Gillard. I'll say one thing for Julia - all her ex-lovers stay loyal.






Ves said:


> Where is the poll that convincingly says the public think Gillard did it?  Can you please link it?
> 
> It's a contextless poll question!!!






Julia said:


> First, the validity of the methodology of such a poll renders it meaningless.
> However, I don't understand your question to Calliope.  This is what he posted:
> 
> No reference whatsoever to the public thinking "Gillard did it".  The question was very clear:  "Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal"?
> So why would you ask such a question?






Ves said:


> The bit about Wilson having less credibility than Gillard (which infers she has little) and the fact that he has been kissing Liberal **** since I arrived on the forum?



Do you disagree that Wilson has less credibility than Gillard?
And how is that relevant to the so called poll?

Maybe just read through the last several posts again, Ves, before you accuse anyone of attempting to paint you as other than you are.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> Maybe just read through the last several posts again, Ves, before you accuse anyone of attempting to paint you as other than you are.



I don't think you understand my question in the slightest.

The edited part is my main objection, because he is using the results of a contextless poll to represent an opinion that favourably resonates his own opinion.

It's simple.

The question "Does Bruce Wilson's statement change your thinking on the AWU scandal?" has no context unless you firstly establish a polling basis for the original opinion, before hearing Bruce Wilson's statement, of the poll respondants.

So I again ask - where is the opinion poll that asks whether or not the public think Julia Gilliard did anything wrong in respect of the AWU scandal?

Without this it is impossible to come to any conclusion of the poll.

Do you not agree?


----------



## Calliope

Ves said:


> .
> The edited part is my main objection, because he is using the results of a contextless poll to represent an opinion that favourably resonates his own opinion.




Never mind Ves, you will get over it  If it makes you happy I will concede that Gillard, Blewitt and Wilson have equal credibility - i.e. nil.

I can understand your frustration.



> The bit about Wilson having less credibility than Gillard (which infers she has little) and the fact that he has been kissing Liberal **** since I arrived on the forum?




To use your crude terminology - you have been kissing  Gillard **** since you arrived on the forum.


----------



## drsmith

The transcript of Bruce Wilson's ABC interview is now available. 

With regard to the naming of the so-called slush fund, Bruce Wilson seems to plonk Julia Gillard right in it.



> CARO MELDRUM-HANNA: So just to clarify: Julia Gillard's role in instructing you to incorporate that fund, she herself filled out paperwork?
> 
> BRUCE WILSON: She filled out on the front page the words "Australian Workers Union", dash, "Workplace Reform Association." I think that was the extend of any writing that was put on it by her.




And there's this,



> CARO MELDRUM-HANNA: So you maintain that no money from the slush fund was used on Ms Gillard's renovations on her home at that time. Was there also no money that you deposited from the slush fund into her account for other reasons?
> 
> BRUCE WILSON: I didn't deposit any money into her account for other reasons, and the only thing that may have happened - and I'm not saying it did or it didn't, I just don't recall - is the $5,000 that Wayne Hem... If he says - and Wayne was a nice enough guy; I mean, have no reason to be at odds with him - but if he says that happened then perhaps it did. I don't argue with that, but I just don't recall it.




Caught out big time here, and his body language showed it.



> CARO MELDRUM-HANNA: What was Ms Gillard's role in relation to the purchase of that property on Kerr Street?
> 
> BRUCE WILSON: Um... to the extent that she was involved, she signed a power of attorney - and as I understand it that was about the extent of it.
> 
> CARO MELDRUM-HANNA: In addition to signing the power of attorney, Ms Gillard, did she also not attend the auction with you?
> 
> BRUCE WILSON: Yeah, oh... to be honest, I hadn't even recalled that until I read about it, but as I did read about it I, yeah, that happened.




http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3642322.htm


----------



## white_goodman

Ves said:


> Oh I see what you did there Julia.
> 
> You conveniently snipped Calliope's quote to make me look like a fool.
> 
> Seriously, screw this forum. That's just low.





if it walks like a duck...


----------



## moXJO

So Gillard knew long before Rudd got the axe she would get his job from union heavies then lied about it

 Carbon tax lie.

Aboriginal tent embassy setup

Her sexist rant then backing Slipper

Vilification of Abbotts personal character at every chance then hypocritically pointing at Abbott as personally attacking her.

I'm sure there is more, but it is painting a picture of her after a short time as PM.
The fact she will do what it takes to be in power speaks volumes. 
I still prefer Gillard over Rudd but that's no praise.

Labor can not run policy full stop. It's beyond the joke at this point and they have run out of coalition surplus to save their a$$ in what is shaping up to be a recession next year. Labor has whittled away enough policy that worked for it's own bumbling schemes. They have created a bad business environment and will no doubt madly scramble to change policy when it finally clicks. I'm just sick of being told how AUS has never had it so good. Labor needs to face reality.


----------



## drsmith

Labor MP Steve Gibbons has just cracked Julia Gillard's mirror.

He has called Julia Bishop a bimbo and then apologised, but not to Julie Bishop herself. No apology at all for the other descriptors. 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-then-says-sorry/story-fndo48ca-1226525468353


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> Labor MP Steve Gibbons has just cracked Julia Gillard's mirror.
> 
> He has called Julia Bishop a bimbo and then apologised, but not to Julie Bishop herself. No apology at all for the other descriptors.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-then-says-sorry/story-fndo48ca-1226525468353




One of them was back to calling Abbott the mad monk again on an interview I just heard. So much for personal attacks.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Unless the coalition make some of this stick, they are going to have to make a plan B.
> They don't seem to be getting much traction and the press won't help.
> I think they would be better served pushing for an inquiry into the running of unions, there is enough grounds, one would think.




I have noted the number of times Julie Bishop has attempted to table documents at Question time refering to her allegations and they are always refused by the leader of the house Albanesee.

Gillard repeatedly dodged the questions by referring to the press interview just before question time. 

"I have already answered that".

The reason why she won't answer in parliament is because she may be found out to be misleading parliament.

She has been lucky so far but she has got to slip up sooner or later.


----------



## dutchie

People who may still need to answer questions and brought to account where necessary:

Theiss – bribery
Woodside – bribery
Blewitt – bribery , misappropriation of Union funds, fraud
Wilson - bribery , misappropriation of Union funds , fraud
Gillard – fraud, misappropriation of Union funds, professional misconduct
Slater & Gordon – professional misconduct
Roxon – obstruction of justice for AWU members
Shorten – obstruction of justice for AWU members


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> The transcript of Bruce Wilson's ABC interview is now available.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3642322.htm






> BRUCE WILSON:
> He confessed at some stage, and he also showed me a package of money that he said... and I said to him, well he better dig it up and get it back into the bank. He showed me a package of money that had been destroyed. Obviously it had been in his garden or some such thing and, you know, got moist and destroyed the money.



Polymer banknotes were issued in Australia from 1988. According to Wikipedia, these are waterproof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_banknote


----------



## McLovin

drsmith said:


> Polymer banknotes were issued in Australia from 1988. According to Wikipedia, these are waterproof.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_banknote




1992 they begun issuing them in general circulation, starting with the $5 notes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknotes_of_the_Australian_dollar#Current_series_.28polymer.29


----------



## drsmith

McLovin said:


> 1992 they begun issuing them in general circulation, starting with the $5 notes.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknotes_of_the_Australian_dollar#Current_series_.28polymer.29



Thanks for the link.

The larger domination polymer notes came later again, so the cash to which Bruce Wilson refers could well have been the preceeding paper notes.


----------



## Logique

In a complete digression from the thread topic,

the heart breaks for Maria Santos Gorrostieta (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...war-on-us-agenda/story-fnb64oi6-1226525769895)  

_Vale_ a woman of rare character and courage.


----------



## IFocus

Logique said:


> In a complete digression from the thread topic,
> 
> the heart breaks for Maria Santos Gorrostieta (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...war-on-us-agenda/story-fnb64oi6-1226525769895)
> 
> _Vale_ a woman of rare character and courage.




+ 1........


----------



## orr

Logique said:


> In a complete digression from the thread topic,




I disagree as to it being a complete digression; This government and all of the past few generations have allowed the growth and financial empowerment, with all things malignant that that entails, of a criminal class though intellectual expediency and the exploitation of fear, too our great cost.


----------



## dutchie

*Re: The Gillard Govhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZMIYernment*

[video=youtube_share;NSqDExOvUdM]http://youtu.be/NSqDExOvUdM[/video]


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> Labor MP Steve Gibbons has just cracked Julia Gillard's mirror.
> 
> He has called Julia Bishop a bimbo and then apologised, but not to Julie Bishop herself. No apology at all for the other descriptors.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-then-says-sorry/story-fndo48ca-1226525468353




Steve Gibbons is a disgrace and this is not the first time he has made inappropriate tweets.  I used to live in his electorate and he is the laziest polititian going around.  He's been an MP for years and has never been elevated to a  ministerial role of any kind, I don't think even the Labor party like him  .  He's retiring at the next election but is being replaced by another union hack (unles the Libs can manage to win the seat).


----------



## doctorj

This may or may not be old, but seeing this makes me proud that Australians are represented by such a fine stateswoman...


----------



## Julia

doctorj said:


> This may or may not be old, but seeing this makes me proud that Australians are represented by such a fine stateswoman...
> View attachment 49781



Indeed.  Such dignity.
I didn't watch Question Time today but the excerpt on "PM" was quite hideous.
The Prime Minister shrieks in her shrill Strine accent in a manner rejected by even the most ardent fishwife.


> (Def. fishwife (plural fishwives).  (pejorative) A vulgar, abusive or nagging woman with a loud, unpleasant voice. (Geordie ...


----------



## sptrawler

Miss Hale said:


> Steve Gibbons is a disgrace and this is not the first time he has made inappropriate tweets.  I used to live in his electorate and he is the laziest polititian going around.  He's been an MP for years and has never been elevated to a  ministerial role of any kind, I don't think even the Labor party like him  .  He's retiring at the next election but is being replaced by another union hack (unles the Libs can manage to win the seat).




The funny thing is the reporters haven't jumped all over it. They must be disappointed it wasn't a coalition member, that said it. LOL Then they could have run with it for a week or two.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> The funny thing is the reporters haven't jumped all over it. They must be disappointed it wasn't a coalition member, that said it. LOL Then they could have run with it for a week or two.



It was well reported across both the Local Radio and Radio National networks today from ABC.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> It was well reported across both the Local Radio and Radio National networks today from ABC.




I stand corrected, fortunately I will be in the "golden states" next week and will be blessed with the wonderfull unbiased reporting that you enjoy.
By the way where is Wodonga?LOL


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I stand corrected, fortunately I will be in the "golden states" next week and will be blessed with the wonderfull unbiased reporting that you enjoy.
> By the way where is Wodonga?LOL



I'm sure your post is tongue in cheek and that you're entirely aware that ABC Radio is networked across the whole country.  Just a case of tuning in.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I'm sure your post is tongue in cheek and that you're entirely aware that ABC Radio is networked across the whole country.  Just a case of tuning in.




Well have to be honest. 
Yesterday I was helping an 81 yr old bloke, fixing up his reticulation, that some shonky sparky ripped him of $130 and fixed nothing. 
Then after that I was fixing my daughters cistern, ended up replacing the inlet valve.

So no, I didn't listen to the radio, I tend to respond to what I have time to read on the internet and try to balance that with what I read on the forum.

Therefore if someone has any issue with my responses, feel free to tell me to shut up, saves me from another job.LOL


----------



## MrBurns

If you don't already get onto the ABC web site The Drum and have your say, you should, I've been doing it for a long time, they publish me most of the time now because I get the lefties in a spin and create quite a stir, and if you get in there as well it wil help give the socialists a bit of opposition.

Here's one article but there are plenty of others published daily - 

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4395012.html

The Drum

http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/


----------



## dutchie

Gillard started with a lie.
Gillard ended with a lie.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> If you don't already get onto the ABC web site The Drum and have your say, you should, I've been doing it for a long time, they publish me most of the time now because I get the lefties in a spin and create quite a stir, and if you get in there as well it wil help give the socialists a bit of opposition.
> 
> Here's one article but there are plenty of others published daily -
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4395012.html
> 
> The Drum
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/




Thanks for the link MrBurns


----------



## sptrawler

Well I see Michael Pascoe, has at last seen the bells clanging, if he can see we have a problem blind freddy can.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/bubble-of-the-boom-blowing-away-20121129-2ahn1.html

It will be interesting to see his bent on things as they go pear shaped.


----------



## sptrawler

Here is some reporting the opposition could use, to ask the "worlds greatest treasurer" some questions.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/p...so-far-20121129-2ainj.html?rand=1354183761806

The problem I see is focusing on Gillard, who has shown can be difficult to pin down, there should probably be a change of tack to the economy. 
Which funnily enough the government is pushing, I think there may be a change of tack at the resumption of parliament.


----------



## Calliope

The political agenda for 2013;



> Gillard, the Labor Party and the union movement have a fierce emotional and institutional self-interest in Abbott's destruction, while Abbott, in turn, will perpetuate this issue to hurt Gillard's standing and further mobilise sentiment against the Labor brand with its union links and instances of corrupt behaviour.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...d-in-a-stalemate/story-e6frg74x-1226527044324


----------



## DB008

Some e-mails going around.....



> Julia G might be forced into resigning because of AWU slush funds saga.
> I'm watching the Shadow Attorney Generals (George Brandess) press conference and he is saying that Julia has broken the law "breached the commercial and crimanal law of WA".


----------



## sptrawler

Geez Danny, I'd love to be there when someone tells Gillard she is sacked, I reckon it would be classic.
It would be a dead cert to win "funniest home videos". 
You reckon the Abbott spray went viral. 
Imagine Swan, Shorten, Albanese and the boys after she read them "the riot act", with Tim in the background trying to look busy. That would be priceless


----------



## Logique

As a columnist, we pretty much know Piers Akerman's starting point, just as we know with Mike Carlton and Lenore Taylor. Anyway, Piers' latest offering, something about gooses and cooking, very seasonal - 



> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-goose-is-cooked/story-e6frezz0-1226526946741
> 
> ..Watching Gillard respond was like sitting through a pirated video of The Exorcist as she twisted and writhed and sneered and spat "negativity, sleaze and smear" across the chamber. She had earlier released a statement in which she accused the Liberals of running a witch hunt - a discredited smear campaign - and of having "nothing"..
> 
> ..Re-reading her quotes and watching her performance and listening to her evasive, obfuscatory declamations, one wonders what happened to all that truth-telling. And its not just me. Early on Thursday I received a message on my blog from regular contributor, a dyed-in-the-wool Labor supporter who uses the name Judith. She wrote: "I must now eat humble pie. I have put some time into reading as much as I can about this sordid affair. It hurts me to the core to say this but Julia Gillard must step down..


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> As a columnist, we pretty much know Piers Akerman's starting point, just as we know with Mike Carlton and Lenore Taylor. Anyway, Piers' latest offering, something about gooses and cooking, very seasonal -
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226526946741
> 
> ..Watching Gillard respond was like sitting through a pirated video of The Exorcist as she twisted and writhed and sneered and spat "negativity, sleaze and smear" across the chamber. She had earlier released a statement in which she accused the Liberals of running a witch hunt - a discredited smear campaign - and of having "nothing"..
> 
> ..Re-reading her quotes and watching her performance and listening to her evasive, obfuscatory declamations, one wonders what happened to all that truth-telling. And its not just me. Early on Thursday I received a message on my blog from regular contributor, a dyed-in-the-wool Labor supporter who uses the name Judith. She wrote: "I must now eat humble pie. I have put some time into reading as much as I can about this sordid affair. It hurts me to the core to say this but Julia Gillard must step down..




That is epic, couldn't have put it better myself, I might pinch (with attribution) it and post it on the ABC The Drum  at next opportunity. Watch all the lefties go berserk


----------



## drsmith

Coalition 54% 2PP.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...axy-poll-reveals/story-fncvk70o-1226528115008


----------



## Calliope

Julia sees Abbott's promised judicial enquiry into union corruption as "sleaze and smear."



> The Coalition has promised a judicial inquiry into union corruption if it wins the next election.
> 
> "Mr Abbott's made it perfectly clear that he's going to stay wedded to this sleaze and smear, not only now, but even if he was prime minister," Ms Gillard said



.

No doubt, the Union movement will be pouring considerable resources into the election in order to prevent their corruption practices being further exposed.

The irony is that the union members who are the victims of this corruption will be paying for the campaign, supported of course by money extorted from employers.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Julia sees Abbott's promised judicial enquiry into union corruption as "sleaze and smear."
> 
> .
> 
> No doubt, the Union movement will be pouring considerable resources into the election in order to prevent their corruption practices being further exposed.
> 
> The irony is that the union members who are the victims of this corruption will be paying for the campaign, supported of course by money extorted from employers.




Yes Calliope, the unions will come out with all guns blazing.

But I would say there resources must be starting to diminish with unions members leaving in droves and companies who were once bribed may now stand up to these thugs.


----------



## Julia

> In this mode, Julia Gillard fed a line to the Sunday Telegraph at the weekend that won her exactly the headline she wanted in a mass-circulation newspaper, repeated to thousands more through the News Ltd website: “Prime Minister’s $250 lifeline for families’ power bills”.




Above extract from Business Spectator.

There was some analysis of this proposal on Radio National's 'Breakfast' this morning.
The analyst suggested it was based on some optimistic assumptions (or words to that effect).

This is Gillard's specialty:  the warm and fuzzy sounding headlines, viz saving households on electricity (never mind her input of the carbon tax, that doesn't count), the NDIS where only a very small trial is funded, and the Gonski reforms, the funding for which seems unknown.

She seems to operate on the probably correct belief that many people will just hear the headline stuff and not follow up on whether there's actually any account for how this magic will happen.

Perhaps something more for the Opposition to point out a bit more often.

Further extract from the Business Spectator article:


> What is absolutely certain is that these new arrangements will not deliver a reduction in household or small business power bills.
> 
> This is borne out by what Federal Energy Minister Martin Ferguson has been saying – that the worst of the power bill hikes are over but Australians shouldn’t expect to see their costs going backwards unless they take action themselves to find a lower-cost supplier and to change their patterns of consumption.
> 
> It is also borne out by what the key COAG advisor on energy regulation, the Australian Energy Market Commission, has said after an intensive 18-month review of current arrangements that canvassed opinion widely, including from many consumer groups.


----------



## bunyip

The Darling Downs region in Queensland is one of the fastest growing areas in Australia, due mainly to the developing coal seam gas industry in the Surat Basin. Towns like Dalby, Chinchilla, Roma, Tara, Miles and a number of others are experiencing rapid growth, putting strain on all kinds of services. 
Against this background of rapid growth and services that are struggling to cope, the Gillard government recently announced a 6.1 million dollar funding cut to the Darling Downs health budget. Queensland has lost 63.3 million dollars of federal government health funding so far this year,
In the usual pattern with Labor governments, Rudd and Gillard and her motley crew went nuts by splashing money around with reckless abandon, with the inevitable and predictable result that sooner or later the well would run dry and they’d have to make serious funding cuts. 
It really is pathetic. Rapidly expanding regions of our country should receive increased federal funding. And that’s what would happen under a responsible and competent government. But Gillard and Co. are doing the opposite. 
The Queensland Nurses Union is heavily critical of the Queensland LNP government for implementing cost-saving measures in Queensland Health. They should redirect their anger at the Federal Labor Government over their continued funding reductions to QLD.
Never yet have I seen a Labor government that was responsible and competent in handling money.


----------



## drsmith

Joe Hockey may well be right here.



> The government was “crab walking away from the surplus so they can do what they do best”, he said.
> 
> “Once the shackles of any surplus are off, Labor will engage in reckless spending, especially given their $120 billion of unfunded promises,” Mr Hockey said.




A last ditch vote buying exercise in the lead up to the next election at the expense of future generations.

It's either that ot an early election for Labor.

http://afr.com/p/national/deficits_loom_for_next_two_years_9IYQAl8T3MgGl7r07rZObN


----------



## IFocus

I know its pointless adding balance to these threads below is the sort of spin I read here constantly

Pyne caught red-handed with the airbrush



> Christopher Pyne had his airbrush out yesterday – erasing the entire global financial crisis from Australia's economic history.
> 
> "Well if there had been a Coalition government for the last five years ... I think most people accept that we would have had continuing surpluses," he told Sky television.
> 
> Actually most people do not accept that.
> 
> In 2009, a forecast $20 billion surplus became a $57 billion deficit in part because Labor spent more than $50 billion as stimulus in the face of an international economic meltdown and in part because company tax revenue collapsed due to the financial crisis.





Classic 



> For the record, he told Fairfax Media we were were taking his statements "too literally . . . I was simply making the point that the Coalition's economic management is better than Labor's".



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...he-airbrush-20121210-2b4rq.html#ixzz2EdLvG5Z6




> In retrospect, what Mr Turnbull said looks pretty smart (he also argued it was implausible to effectively and efficiently spend $16 billion on school halls in the timeframe proposed and that the pink batts scheme should be means-tested or require a co-contribution from the householders, which might have saved a whole lot of pain) But even if Australia had done exactly as the Coalition said we should do at the time, we'd still have come out of the crisis about $180 billion in debt, rather than $200 billion. And the nation would still have run very large budget deficits.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...he-airbrush-20121210-2b4rq.html#ixzz2EdLo8ZwH


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> Classic




Yes it really is classic how rusted-on lefties attempt to take the *Focus* off government failures by nit-picking about opposition statements. What on earth does Pyne have to do with Labor's massive deficits.:screwy:


----------



## Macquack

Calliope said:


> Yes it really is classic how rusted-on lefties attempt to take the *Focus* off government failures by nit-picking about opposition statements. What on earth does Pyne have to do with Labor's massive deficits.:screwy:




Nothing, but you would have to admit that Pyne is a pain in the ass.


----------



## drsmith

> In retrospect, what Mr Turnbull said looks pretty smart (he also argued it was implausible to effectively and efficiently spend $16 billion on school halls in the timeframe proposed and that the pink batts scheme should be means-tested or require a co-contribution from the householders, which might have saved a whole lot of pain) But even if Australia had done exactly as the Coalition said we should do at the time, we'd still have come out of the crisis about $180 billion in debt, rather than $200 billion. And the nation would still have run very large budget deficits.



Rubbish.

That airbrushes all of Labor's other mistakes.


----------



## drsmith

Primary support for Labor sinks back to 32% on Newspoll.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-stalls-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226534075103

They are also going backwards again on Essential Media.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## IFocus

Macquack said:


> Nothing, but you would have to admit that Pyne is a pain in the ass.





LOL good point.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Nothing, but you would have to admit that Pyne is a pain in the ass.




I actually like Pyne a lot, I know he has the born to rule attitude and silver spoon in the mouth way of talking BUT if you listen to him he's a very smart boy, makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Calliope

The gap is opening. Still time to desert the sinking ship Quack and Focus.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2012/12/11/1226534/149223-aus-na-file-federal-newspoll.pdf


----------



## Calliope

Gillard says she is not fazed over the Newspoll results. She says the next election will be decided on policies.


----------



## drsmith

It's the rest of them she has to worry about, but she has them by the balls, for now.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Gillard says she is not fazed over the Newspoll results. She says the next election will be decided on policies.




I doubt it... I would have thought she prefers stupid and unsubstantiated name calling over policy any day!


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus, a full enquiry into the pink batts stimulus handout, IMO would catch the Labor Party and the unions with their pants down.
A full inquiry into unions, IMO would bring the Labor party down in a big way and that is only making assumptions from what has been made public in the news media.
If Gillard believes the Labor party isn't rotten to the core, she should welcome an inquiry. LOL
lets not forget, these same officials are looking after a lot of their members superannuation.
There is one thing for sure, it will go pear shaped, when more members want a pension and less people are putting in.
Fortunately I think this will happen sooner than later.


----------



## bellenuit

*Foreign Minister Bob Carr accused of betraying Prime Minister Julia Gillard over Palestine*

http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/news...d-over-palestine/story-e6freuy9-1226534862213

_In an exclusive column for The Daily Telegraph today, the Victorian Labor MP accused Mr Carr and his colleagues in the NSW Labor right of abandoning their "beliefs" and betraying Ms Gillard *because of a misguided fear of a voter backlash among the growing Middle Eastern communities in western Sydney*._


----------



## drsmith

Another AWU slush fund.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/new-awu-slush-fund-revealed-20121211-2b7zo.html


----------



## drsmith

Building the education revolution, Labor style.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...al-reading-tests/story-fn59nlz9-1226534899367


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Another AWU slush fund.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/new-awu-slush-fund-revealed-20121211-2b7zo.html





Labor/Unions dodgy deals.

Supported and fostered by the PM.


----------



## dutchie

$16 billion spent on building the Education Revolution  *=*  primary students hit low in international reading tests 

Well done Juliar!


----------



## bunyip

drsmith said:


> Building the education revolution, Labor style.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...al-reading-tests/story-fn59nlz9-1226534899367




Yeh, that gave me a bit of a chuckle too when I heard on TV this morning about how far behind our educational standards have fallen. How ironic that after Rudd’s bold announcement about his education revolution, after all the billions they wasted on overpriced and largely unneeded school buildings, (presided over mainly by Gillard) they’ve achieved nothing in the way of improving our education standards. The only 'achievement' was to waste a power of money and put us further into debt, with nothing worthwhile to show for it.


----------



## DB008

dutchie said:


> $16 billion spent on building the Education Revolution  *=*  primary students hit low in international reading tests
> 
> Well done Juliar!




Plus another $6 Billion on the current boarder protection stuff up, and you really start to wonder if the people in charge have any idea? Short answer, no.


----------



## moXJO

bunyip said:


> Yeh, that gave me a bit of a chuckle too when I heard on TV this morning about how far behind our educational standards have fallen. How ironic that after Rudd’s bold announcement about his education revolution, after all the billions they wasted on overpriced and largely unneeded school buildings, (presided over mainly by Gillard) they’ve achieved nothing in the way of improving our education standards. The only 'achievement' was to waste a power of money and put us further into debt, with nothing worthwhile to show for it.




This really pi$$es me off. It was one of the policies I thought had merit and instead we went backwards.   
Labor can you get any policy to work or do you fail at everything?


----------



## DB008

Didn't someone have a list of the stuff ups somewhere?

Cash for clunkers - didn't even get off the ground
Digital set-top boxes - buying older generation votes
BER (Building Education Revolution) - fail, education levels slump
Border protection - complete fail
Carbon tax - no one voted this
MRRT - not 1 cent collected - foreign investment looking at other countries. Resource investment slump
Budget blow-out - minus some $200+ Billion
Grocery watch - fail
Fuel watch - fail
UN security council seat - already absenteed from a Israel vote, whats the point of getting a seat when your too chicken $hit to vote?
Cancellation of the baby bonus - bringing budget to surplus?
AWE scandal and too spineless to act on it

I'm sure that there are more to be added to the list.


----------



## Julia

Just to add to the BER stuff up, a parent called a radio station this morning to say that his son's primary school received a beautiful new school hall during the BER building.  The school had their end of year break up last night.  It had to be held at the local high school because the new school hall wasn't big enough to hold everyone.
Whacko, Labor, just fantastic.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> Just to add to the BER stuff up, a parent called a radio station this morning to say that his son's primary school received a beautiful new school hall during the BER building.  The school had their end of year break up last night.  It had to be held at the local high school because the new school hall wasn't big enough to hold everyone.
> Whacko, Labor, just fantastic.




My sons school hall is the same they have to open the doors out the back and sit people outside the room


----------



## drsmith

The prospects of a 2012/13 budget surplus continue to diminish by the day. Even the Federal Treasury has now given up. 

It would appear the government is now reduced to little more than hope.



> *Government still hoping ‘something will turn up’*
> 
> Sources say the government is still desperately hoping “something will turn up” to allow it to keep its surplus commitment.




http://www.afr.com/p/national/treasury_to_swan_dump_surplus_plan_HtAjh6eXi7qbaP5GnTh9VO


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Just to add to the BER stuff up, a parent called a radio station this morning to say that his son's primary school received a beautiful new school hall during the BER building.  The school had their end of year break up last night.  It had to be held at the local high school because the new school hall wasn't big enough to hold everyone.
> Whacko, Labor, just fantastic.





And I’ll bet the beautiful new school hall cost two or three times what it should have. 
My neighbors are school teachers. Their school got a new building to replace one that had recently been built and was completely adequate. There was considerable outrage in the town when a 300 grand quote from a local builder was ignored in favor of a 700 grand quote from an out of town builder. 

Surely there had to be some corruption in there somewhere....a government minister (Gillard perhaps?) getting an ‘under the table’ payment to award the contract to the builder with the dearer quote?
Time and again schools were told to accept quotes that were two or three times dearer than other quotes for the same building. It happened so often that it’s difficult to believe it was anything other than deliberate.


----------



## Logique

Page 263 of this thread! Joe's going to have to apply for more bandwidth when the election rolls around. Mods probably on a fitness training regime.


----------



## Logique

Being young and naive excuses our past mistakes. 




Cartoon author credit: Bill Leak - http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/12/14/1226537/113978-121215-bill-leak-gallery.jpeg


----------



## drsmith

Labor's latest surplus trick,



> Under the direction issued by Senator Conroy late yesterday, reserve prices for the 700Mhz band were set at $1.36 per MHz per population implying a minimum $3bn revenue windfall from the auction.




How it compares internationally, according to Optus,



> "The reserve price announced is effectively double the basket of outcomes achieved in comparable advanced economies over the past two to three years," said Optus's head of corporate and regulatory affairs David Epstein.




Optus not happy about wearing Stephen Conroy's latest red underpants,



> Optus slammed a direction from the government to set a $3 billion floor price for the so-called digital dividend auction as "unworkable", prompting fears the telco could exit the auction process as it warned that the high price would restrict investment and drive up prices for essential telecommunications services.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/aus...ed-as-unworkable/story-fn4iyzsr-1226537177347


----------



## sptrawler

It will be interesting if Telstra are the only bidder, that will put a cat among the pigeons. Telstra with heaps of bandwidth for high speed internet, to compete with the N.B.N
It looks like another backflip to be performed by the goon show in the very near future.


----------



## DB008

This Government has no balls.

Bend over.....



> *Reef safeguard sacrificed secretly for US, Singapore*
> 
> Leaked US embassy cables published by WikiLeaks have revealed that the government has "weakened" the compulsory pilotage regime for large vessels, including oil tankers, chemical tankers and liquefied gas carriers, sailing through the sensitive maritime environment of the Torres Strait.
> 
> The cables reveal that the US and Singaporean governments reacted strongly against the Howard government's October 2006 announcement of a compulsory pilotage regime in the Torres Strait designed to reduce the risk of oil and chemical spills in the northern end of the Great Barrier Reef.
> 
> The Howard government was unmoved. In early 2008 the new Labor government under Kevin Rudd would not change its position either.
> 
> However, in July 2008, the head of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade's international law branch, assistant secretary Adam McCarthy, told the US embassy in Canberra that "Australia recognises that it has not handled the Torres Strait pilotage issue particularly well" and indicated Canberra was prepared "to explore ways to address US concerns".
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...s-singapore-20110911-1k48j.html#ixzz2F6S2Jjwz


----------



## sptrawler

This has to take the cake, doesn't it?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...r-2013-14-budget/story-e6freoof-1226537771916

What a joke, they stuff up the economy when they have treasury and their economic modelling computers.
They shove new taxes down everyones throats, after they blow money on useless initiatives and bad policy decissions.
Now the want to share the guilt, by getting the public to contribute ideas, thereby taking some ownership of Labors deficit problem.
What a bunch of losers, it really is a sad state of affairs. 
Next thing Wayne will be down the local pub for some financial guidance, from the lads.
Come to think of it, they may have a better idea than he does.


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> This has to take the cake, doesn't it?




Yes, with a cherry on top.

Didn't the Government recently have a similar forum about small business (or something similar?), they didn't listen. What's the point.

I know a medium/large sized business owner. He is pretty successful, and very smart.

I asked him about Wayne, he said that Wayne is a class 1 Idiot A$$hole with no idea, and also added Glenn Stevens to the list.

I trust what he has to say about economics more than anyone anyone else, including the Government.


----------



## Logique

Elections - Japan makes a right turn. Former government's "..failure to keep campaign promises..", now what does that remind me of...



> http://news.yahoo.com/exit-polls-conservative-ldp-wins-japan-election-111803898.html
> 
> TOKYO (AP) ”” *Japan's conservative Liberal Democratic Party stormed back to power in parliamentary elections Sunday* after three years in opposition, exit polls showed, signaling a rightward shift in the government that could further heighten tensions with rival China.
> 
> The victory means that the hawkish former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe will almost certainly get a second chance to lead the nation after a one-year stint in 2006-2007. He would be Japan's seventh prime minister in six-and-a-half years.
> 
> Public broadcaster NHK's exit polls projected that the LDP, which ruled Japan for most of the post-World War II era until it was dumped in 2009, *won between 275 and 300 seats in the 480-seat lower house* of parliament. Official results were not expected until Monday morning. Before the election, it had 118 seats.
> 
> *The results were a sharp rebuke for Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda's ruling Democratic Party* of Japan, reflecting widespread unhappiness for its *failure to keep campaign promises* and get the stagnant economy going...


----------



## bunyip

The Gillard government plans to divert 375 million dollars from our foreign aid program to help pay for the increasing costs of the illegal immigrants flooding our country. 

That brilliant strategist Rudd, supported by Gillard and the rest of the goon club, got rid of a policy that was working well in stemming the flow of boat people. 
Result – total loss of control of our borders. 
Cost – many billions of dollars so far, and climbing. 
Solution – they have none, or at least none that they have the brains to put in place.

Not that I’m in favor of the billions of dollars we hand out in foreign aid while our own country is desperately short of funding in so many vitally important areas. But to give another 375 million to people who engage in criminal activity to come here, while the government just will not take the hard decisions necessary to stop them, is downright pathetic.

It almost beggars belief that some people will vote for these incompetent clowns at the next election.


----------



## dutchie

bunyip said:


> The Gillard government plans to divert 375 million dollars from our foreign aid program to help pay for the increasing costs of the illegal immigrants flooding our country.
> 
> That brilliant strategist Rudd, supported by Gillard and the rest of the goon club, got rid of a policy that was working well in stemming the flow of boat people.
> Result – total loss of control of our borders.
> Cost – many billions of dollars so far, and climbing.
> Solution – they have none, or at least none that they have the brains to put in place.
> 
> Not that I’m in favor of the billions of dollars we hand out in foreign aid while our own country is desperately short of funding in so many vitally important areas. But to give another 375 million to people who engage in criminal activity to come here, while the government just will not take the hard decisions necessary to stop them, is downright pathetic.
> 
> It almost beggars belief that some people will vote for these incompetent clowns at the next election.




Spot on Bunyip.

But the really scary part of your post, for Australia, is your last sentence.


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> The Gillard government plans to divert 375 million dollars from our foreign aid program to help pay for the increasing costs of the illegal immigrants flooding our country.



Isn't that better than directing new money at it?   Of course they should have left in place the arrangement that had pretty much stopped the boats, but as long as they're still pouring in (and why wouldn't they given it's now straight into the community with what to most of them would be a lot of money each week?) wouldn't you rather they didn't e.g. strip funds from hospital or education funding to pay for them, instead reducing the overseas aid budget?


----------



## sails

Yet another labor backflip that was not taken to the people? With a labor/green friendly senate and independents to give the numbers in the house of reps, do we have any idea how much legislation Gillard has pushed through that suits her agenda but might not be in the best interests of the country?



> Over $1 billion cut today from private health insurance has confirmed another lie by Prime Minister Julie Gillard to rival the carbon tax.
> 
> $700 million will be cut by not paying the rebate on premium increases above CPI. $390 million will be cut by completely removing rebates from Lifetime Health Cover loading.
> 
> Julia Gillard gave an ‘iron clad guarantee’ that she would never touch the private health insurance rebate. Labor has told a succession of lies on this issue (See below)




Read more:

Gillard lie: There will be no private health insurance cuts under a Government I lead


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Isn't that better than directing new money at it?



It is, but to me, that's not the point.

Had they not mismanaged our borders, they would not be cutting other programs to the extent they have.

It's like cutting the baby bonus. A good idea in itself, but bad in a broader context if it is wasted on even less worthy expenditure.


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Yet another labor backflip that was not taken to the people? With a labor/green friendly senate and independents to give the numbers in the house of reps, do we have any idea how much legislation Gillard has pushed through that suits her agenda but might not be in the best interests of the country?
> 
> 
> 
> Read more:
> 
> Gillard lie: There will be no private health insurance cuts under a Government I lead



That was in their mid-year financial update.

It won't stop there. The biggie with private health is the medicare levy surcharge. At some point, they'll look to extract that from higher income earners regardless of whether they have private health insurance or not.


----------



## Calliope

Even Blind Freddie would conclude that Gillard has a _prima facie_ case to answer on the AWU Wilson/Blewitt scam. This is a QC's opinion.



> However, without some explanation from her as to what occurred, there is, in my opinion, a prima facie case that she could have been charged along with Blewitt as she drafted the rules of the association for Blewitt knowing that the rules did not disclose the purpose for which the association was being incorporated.




Read this and form your own opinion.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...to-answer-on-awu/story-e6frgd0x-1226539989208


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> Even Blind Freddie would conclude that Gillard has a _prima facie_ case to answer on the AWU Wilson/Blewitt scam. This is a QC's opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Read this and form your own opinion.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...to-answer-on-awu/story-e6frgd0x-1226539989208




No wonder she does not answer any questions.


----------



## dutchie

Another Gillard lie --  No Surplus.

What a surprise.


----------



## IFocus

Interest rates will always be lower under Labor LOL


Personally I want to see Abbott's / Hockeys fiscal cliff implemented


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Interest rates will always be lower under Labor LOL
> 
> 
> Personally I want to see Abbott's / Hockeys fiscal cliff implemented





But not interest payments on the massive debts Gillard/Swan have run up in such a short time with very little to show for it.  How many more billions will tax payers have to fund to just pay interest on this massive debt?

Even IF interest rates are low, what's the point when people will be hit with higher taxes to pay for Gillard/Swan's massive spendings?

Weren't the highest interest rates of around 18% when labor was in government (around 1988-89)?


----------



## Sean K

Aren't they all kidding themselves. The basis for a surplus/deficit is on China and Japan buying our dirt based on the US and EU buying cheap gadgets from them. It's practically out of any Australian governments control. All they can do is fluff around the edges with expanding or contracting expenditure and taxation which have no real significance.


----------



## Miss Hale

dutchie said:


> Another Gillard lie --  No Surplus.
> 
> What a surprise.




And what about the timing of this little announcement, less than a week before Christmas when they think people will be too preoccupied with other things to give it too much attention


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> And what about the timing of this little announcement, less than a week before Christmas when they think people will be too preoccupied with other things to give it too much attention




and Julia is on holidays........"game on" Julia


----------



## MrBurns

They had no hope of delivering a surplus so they either lied or are just stupid, either way it's not a good look for them.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> But not interest payments on the massive debts Gillard/Swan have run up in such a short time with very little to show for it.  How many more billions will tax payers have to fund to just pay interest on this massive debt?
> 
> Even IF interest rates are low, what's the point when people will be hit with higher taxes to pay for Gillard/Swan's massive spendings?
> 
> Weren't the highest interest rates of around 18% when labor was in government (around 1988-89)?




Yes and just because interest are low it does not add up to a healthy economy. It means the economy is in bad shape and needs stimualting.


----------



## Miss Hale

noco said:


> Yes and just because interest are low it does not add up to a healthy economy. It means the economy is in bad shape and needs stimualting.




But its almost impossible to stimulate it at the moment.  With most people in deleveraging mode cuts in interest rates are not stimulating people to spend but just helping them to reduce debt more easily which is what most people are focussed on right now.


----------



## noco

Miss Hale said:


> But its almost impossible to stimulate it at the moment.  With most people in deleveraging mode cuts in interest rates are not stimulating people to spend but just helping them to reduce debt more easily which is what most people are focussed on right now.




Miss Hale, lowering of interest rates is supposed to stimulate the building industry which has a major flow on effect to other indutries,


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> But not interest payments on the massive debts Gillard/Swan have run up in such a short time with very little to show for it.  How many more billions will tax payers have to fund to just pay interest on this massive debt?
> 
> Even IF interest rates are low, what's the point when people will be hit with higher taxes to pay for Gillard/Swan's massive spendings?
> 
> Weren't the highest interest rates of around 18% when labor was in government (around 1988-89)?




OK I know you wont buy the numbers but facts are.

There was $20 bil difference between the Coalition and Labor on stimulus for the GFC no more no less.

Under Swan  growth  in federal government spending has been lower that ever during the Howard Costello years yep thats a fact hard to swallow but its fact.

Current debt run up is due to the fall in revenue another fact due to the big black hole left by Howard / Costello helped by Rudd the GST (narrow base) coupled by tax cuts = fall off in revenue.

Now for all the huff and puff from Abbott / Hockey they will have the same problems and if they implement any thing near their promises.........Australia's very own fiscal cliff awaits us.


----------



## kwaka1

"Current debt run up is due to the fall in revenue........"

Is it also not due to a government that "spent" billions above what they could afford (forecast)?

The well known fiasco's of wasted money on "stimulation" of the economy.

Decisions made without forethought of the consequences. 

I refer to a previous post (this post may well be my third in umpteen years) about the fact that the government is running a business and this present government has and will send the business broke because of their poor management skills.


----------



## bellenuit

IFocus said:


> Current debt run up is due to the fall in revenue another fact due to the big black hole left by Howard / Costello helped by Rudd the GST (narrow base) coupled by tax cuts = fall off in revenue.




Incorrect. There has been no fall in Revenue. In fact Revenue has gone from $350B last year to a forecast $376B this year. What has happened is that Swan's forecast revenue of $376B, which was initially to deliver a $2.5B surplus, is in doubt and is now expected to come in at $4B less. Swan's $376B in revenue was always at odds with what independent economists were projecting and Swan was just being pig headed by sticking to his unrealistic forecasts.

It is bad management that has got us to where we are now and with an increased revenue this year compared to last, Labor should have delivered a surplus if they had properly controlled the expenditure side. 

The fall has been in expected revenue vs an unrealistic forecast, not a fall in expected revenue this year vs last.


----------



## Julia

[







bellenuit said:


> Incorrect. There has been no fall in Revenue. In fact Revenue has gone from $350B last year to a forecast $376B this year. What has happened is that Swan's forecast revenue of $376B, which was initially to deliver a $2.5B surplus, is in doubt and is now expected to come in at $4B less. Swan's $376B in revenue was always at odds with what independent economists were projecting and Swan was just being pig headed by sticking to his unrealistic forecasts.



Yes.  An essential difference.  IFocus has been sucked in to spin from the government.



> It is bad management that has got us to where we are now and with an increased revenue this year compared to last, Labor should have delivered a surplus if they had properly controlled the expenditure side.
> 
> The fall has been in expected revenue vs an unrealistic forecast, not a fall in expected revenue this year vs last.



+1.   At least now that they have abandoned the pretence, we may see an easing of fiscal and monetary policy working against each other.

I don't like Penny Wong, but I felt a bit sorry for her on "7.30" this evening, having to attempt (in vain) to answer some pretty direct questions from Chris Urhlman on the backdown on the budget surplus.
As  has already been observed, Julia Gillard chose her time to be away from the fray well.

I don't know how many will be interested but there was this evening an excellent address followed by questions by Jennifer Westacott of the BCA.  She is not someone I've taken too much notice of in the past, but here she demonstrates intelligence and insight.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...end3f-changing-the-australian-mindset/4333558


----------



## Ves

bellenuit said:


> Incorrect. There has been no fall in Revenue. In fact Revenue has gone from $350B last year to a forecast $376B this year. What has happened is that Swan's forecast revenue of $376B, which was initially to deliver a $2.5B surplus, is in doubt and is now expected to come in at $4B less. Swan's $376B in revenue was always at odds with what independent economists were projecting and Swan was just being pig headed by sticking to his unrealistic forecasts.



Can you post or link me to total government revenue stats from say the last decade?  I am curious to see the cyclical changes (if any).


----------



## bellenuit

Ves said:


> Can you post or link me to total government revenue stats from say the last decade?  I am curious to see the cyclical changes (if any).




Sorry, I can't.  I had been looking for that too and couldn't find it. Best I could come up with were two separate Wikipedia links, one on 2011 and one on 2012 budget. Sky also mentioned on midday agenda that revenue has in fact increased this year and that the fall was only in the actual to date vs forecast to date.


----------



## Miss Hale

noco said:


> Miss Hale, lowering of interest rates is supposed to stimulate the building industry which has a major flow on effect to other indutries,




Well that's not happening as far as I can see.  It's also meant to make people spend more by giving them a bit more in their pockets because their mortgage repayments are lower, as well as engender a sort of joie de vivre about how wonderful things are because interest are dropping so let's spend, spend , spend!  Unfortunately people are just getting worried about this never ending need for stimulas


----------



## Miss Hale

Julia said:


> I don't like Penny Wong, but I felt a bit sorry for her on "7.30" this evening, having to attempt (in vain) to answer some pretty direct questions from Chris Urhlman on the backdown on the budget surplus.




I didn't.  I heard her on PM and she spouted the exact same rubbish about how the government is not being political, implying of course that the opposition were by pointing out that this was - yet another - broken promise by the government.  I lost count of how many times she said "we are not being political about this" (when of course they are).  She was just trotting out glib pre-prepared answers that meant nothing and don't fool anyone.


----------



## IFocus

Ves said:


> Can you post or link me to total government revenue stats from say the last decade?  I am curious to see the cyclical changes (if any).





If you Google George Megalogenis from the Australian you might find a number of his articles he has written which goes into the numbers in some detail concerning the revenue black hole some thing a Coalition government will also face.


----------



## Some Dude

Ves said:


> Can you post or link me to total government revenue stats from say the last decade?  I am curious to see the cyclical changes (if any).




Mark The Graph has some plots that may interest you regarding the National Accounts and GDP.


----------



## sails

Receipts have been steadily increasing according to this link:

http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/overview/html/overview_44.htm

Receipts were $272 billion in 2006-7 (labor took over later in 2007) and $329 billion in 2012-12.  Looks like a healthy  increase to me. 

However, despite the increase in receipts, massively negative net financial worth is the frightening figure since labor took over. It now stands at* -$251 billion* for  2011-12...


----------



## MrBurns

The Sunrise show had a message on the screen during the finance report that said " govt admits it can't keep budget in the red"


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Isn't that better than directing new money at it?   Of course they should have left in place the arrangement that had pretty much stopped the boats, but as long as they're still pouring in (and why wouldn't they given it's now straight into the community with what to most of them would be a lot of money each week?) wouldn't you rather they didn't e.g. strip funds from hospital or education funding to pay for them, instead reducing the overseas aid budget?





Sure I’d rather they spent some of our foreign aid money on the illegal refugee problem rather than stripping money from essential services like education and health. But money earmarked for essential services is already being cut, and that will continue. This year alone has seen 63.3 million dollars sliced from Federal funding to Queensland Health. Presumably health services in other states have had their Federal funding cut as well. And that’s just health. 
Their nifty plan to spend some of our foreign aid money on the boat people problem will not stop them from cutting money from essential services. It may reduce the amount they need to cut, but they’ll still have to go on cutting money from somewhere. 

This increasingly cash-strapped government is desperately looking for money to apply band air solutions to problems that were entirely of their own making. 
I’d really like to see us putting our money into looking after our own people, rather than wasting thousands of millions of dollars on people who engage in criminal activity to come here uninvited. The clueless mob of ALP fools who caused this problem in the first place have to be voted out of power. They simply don’t deserve to govern our country.


----------



## bunyip

kwaka1 said:


> "Current debt run up is due to the fall in revenue........"
> 
> Is it also not due to a government that "spent" billions above what they could afford (forecast)?







Not according to Swannie! lol
The bastard had the audacity to state that the shortfall wasn’t because they had over-spent....it was because of a drop in revenue.

They spend like lunatics, then expect people to believe that over-spending didn’t contribute to their problems!


----------



## explod

bunyip said:


> Not according to Swannie! lol
> The bastard had the audacity to state that the shortfall wasn’t because they had over-spent....it was because of a drop in revenue.
> 
> They spend like lunatics, then expect people to believe that over-spending didn’t contribute to their problems!




Here spending is bad, overseas it is the current rage to *stimulate*

And I do have to laugh, is it not wonderful that we have the freedom in this country to call each other "bastards" and "lunatics".

tick Bunyip


----------



## IFocus

Some Dude said:


> Mark The Graph has some plots that may interest you regarding the National Accounts and GDP.





Thanks SD not often facts get shown here 

The charts for GST and the step change down on the National Accounts total tax's are telling

Apparently according to all here we didn't have a GFC, the revenue flow dramatically shows other wise


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> The Sunrise show had a message on the screen during the finance report that said " govt admits it can't keep budget in the red"



 (idiots)


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Thanks SD not often facts get shown here
> 
> The charts for GST and the step change down on the National Accounts total tax's are telling
> 
> Apparently according to all here we didn't have a GFC, the revenue flow dramatically shows other wise




Haha - Swanny's "facts" didn't work out too well now, did they?

How you can keep up with this crazy propaganda is beyond me.  It has been shown that the majority here have been right and labor have proved to be telling porkies...yet again!


----------



## Ves

Thanks for all the links guys - I am still unclear on whether the Howard Government had more revenue / receipts (depending on what they count in the budget) compared to what Gillard / Rudd Governments have had since.

I guess it just goes to show, both sides will give you the information that will best represent what they want you to see.

The fact that Hockey is also backing down on all talk of surplus seems to indicate that there are structural problems appearing in our economy that were so far hidden by the mining boom.


----------



## sails

Ves said:


> Thanks for all the links guys - I am still unclear on whether the Howard Government had more revenue / receipts (depending on what they count in the budget) compared to what Gillard / Rudd Governments have had since.
> 
> I guess it just goes to show, both sides will give you the information that will best represent what they want you to see.
> 
> The fact that Hockey is also backing down on all talk of surplus seems to indicate that there are structural problems appearing in our economy that were so far hidden by the mining boom.




Vespuria, the link I provided was from the government web site and it lists the receipts going back many years.  I would think that to be reliable and it shows a steady increase in those receipts.

I understand that the NBN has not been included in payments - why would they do that?


----------



## Julia

Ves said:


> I guess it just goes to show, both sides will give you the information that will best represent what they want you to see.



Too true.



> The fact that Hockey is also backing down on all talk of surplus seems to indicate that there are structural problems appearing in our economy that were so far hidden by the mining boom.



Good to know Mr Hockey is learning from Labor's humiliation and not leaving the Coalition open to the same silly fixation.


----------



## dutchie




----------



## Sean K

sails said:


> I understand that the NBN has not been included in payments - why would they do that?



How is this one going by the way? Anyone know? Last I heard the rollout and take-up have been pretty average. Another white elephant?


----------



## explod

kennas said:


> How is this one going by the way? Anyone know? Last I heard the rollout and take-up have been pretty average. Another white elephant?




Agree, less people by the day want to be tied to a landline.

Today you can trade and annoy everyone from your mobile phone.


----------



## Ves

sails said:


> Vespuria, the link I provided was from the government web site and it lists the receipts going back many years.  I would think that to be reliable and it shows a steady increase in those receipts.
> 
> I understand that the NBN has not been included in payments - why would they do that?



I think this is what I mean, I did see your link and it has plenty of information. But what makes up the "receipts"?  Is it the same as the budget? It appears to be but the page itself does not offer much in the way of explanation!


----------



## bellenuit

sails said:


> I understand that the NBN has not been included in payments - why would they do that?




They are able to exclude NBN costs from expenditure as it is treated as a self financing project. The debt instruments that they have issued (Bonds?) to pay for the ongoing expenditure will be repaid by receipts from subscribers to the network. I am not sure the exact term for this type of off-ledger financing, but I'm sure NBNMyths will help out there.

Although not including the cost of the NBN in the budget is supposed to be no different to how other countries handle similar projects, it does prevent transparency and could hide cost overruns to a point in time that they have to admit that subscriptions are unable to compensate.  A bit like the sudden surprise that seemingly hit Swan yesterday, but was obvious to almost everyone else.


----------



## dutchie

Hey Goose,  this is where it went..

Jolly Green Giant Award

To the federal government, which poured $42 million into its Green Car Plan. The result was a green four-cylinder Ford Falcon which the NSW government refused to buy because it did not meet their environmental guidelines. The federal government *bought just two*.

(From Pierpont at AFR)


----------



## sails

Has Swanny lied or didn't he know his numbers?  Tax revenue is* up 9.2%* - see below:



> THE Labor government is yet to show it can rein in spending, with each of its five budgets packed with high-cost initiatives and consuming a much larger share of the economy than the last five Howard government budgets.
> 
> Wayne Swan has blamed the failure to reach surplus this year on the shortfall in tax revenue, but *figures for the first four months of this financial year show total receipts are 9.2 per cent ahead of last year*.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-rising-revenues/story-fn59niix-1226542121468


----------



## bellenuit

sails said:


> Has Swanny lied or didn't he know his numbers?  Tax revenue is* up 9.2%* - see below:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-rising-revenues/story-fn59niix-1226542121468




Yes, the shortfall is against his unrealistic projections, not on year on year receipts.


----------



## explod

bellenuit said:


> Yes, the shortfall is against his unrealistic projections, not on year on year receipts.




Which are probably influenced by the ramping up of the press, ie, Doc Oliver, Craige James, Glenn Stevens and of course the wealthy guru's of the mining industry not to mention Wall Street etc., so who is to blame?

Just about everyone that thinks he is anyone is on the ponzie gravy train.


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> Which are probably influenced by the ramping up of the press, ie, Doc Oliver, Craige James, Glenn Stevens and of course the wealthy guru's of the mining industry not to mention Wall Street etc., so who is to blame?
> 
> Just about everyone that thinks he is anyone is on the ponzie gravy train.



Um, explod, it's Mr Swan who has been doing the ramping up of the economy, persistently telling us that it's in wonderful shape, and a surplus is a certainty.  The RBA clearly has not agreed with him, given their multiple cuts to rates in an attempt to counteract the contracting economy and fiscal policy.


----------



## bellenuit

explod said:


> Which are probably influenced by the ramping up of the press, ie, Doc Oliver, Craige James, Glenn Stevens and of course the wealthy guru's of the mining industry not to mention Wall Street etc., so who is to blame?
> 
> Just about everyone that thinks he is anyone is on the ponzie gravy train.




Every time anyone tried to give a realistic assessment of the economy, Swan was out there accusing them of talking down the economy. The unrealistic expectations are 100% Swan's dreaming and no one else is to blame.


----------



## explod

bellenuit said:


> Every time anyone tried to give a realistic assessment of the economy, Swan was out there accusing them of talking down the economy. The unrealistic expectations are 100% Swan's dreaming and no one else is to blame.




So you believe those commentators give a realistic view, come on, they would be out of a job in a flash.


----------



## noco

Swan is a compulsive liar just like his boss Gillard.

They both have a long history of not being able to tell the truith and that has been witnessd time and time again.

The majority of voters have woken up to them a long time ago but they still persist in living up to their reputations of giving false information. They will tell the people of Australia what they want to hear but it is in most cases far from the truth..


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> Every time anyone tried to give a realistic assessment of the economy, Swan was out there accusing them of talking down the economy. The unrealistic expectations are 100% Swan's dreaming and no one else is to blame.




Swan wouldn't know an economy if it dumped on him. Oh sorry it did.

Remember after the GFC, Swan was saying it wasn't the mining sector and the budget surplus that saved us, it was their stimulus package.
Well now how limp does that sound. Retail has been in recession for years, now mining dips and we are in it up to our armpits. What a goose.


----------



## MrBurns

Gillard running away from this is a bad look but typical of her, the public won't like it.

I'm hoping she takes a real dive in the polls, if anyone deserves it she does.


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> So you believe those commentators give a realistic view, come on, they would be out of a job in a flash.



What do you mean "they would be out of a job in a flash"?
Under what circumstances?

They have been offering a significantly more realistic view than has Swan, Gillard and Wong,  as is absolutely obvious now that they have finally had to concede what pretty much every economist and business leader has been saying for months and months, i.e. that the fetish for a surplus was (a) irrational  and  (b) unachievable.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

bellenuit said:


> Every time anyone tried to give a realistic assessment of the economy, Swan was out there accusing them of talking down the economy. The unrealistic expectations are 100% Swan's dreaming and no one else is to blame.






noco said:


> Swan is a compulsive liar just like his boss Gillard.
> 
> They both have a long history of not being able to tell the truith and that has been witnessd time and time again.
> 
> The majority of voters have woken up to them a long time ago but they still persist in living up to their reputations of giving false information. They will tell the people of Australia what they want to hear but it is in most cases far from the truth..




+1

gg


----------



## Logique

Embedding a video on ASF is so much easier these days, thanks Joe.

This one (37 secs) came in the latest Australian Taxpayers Alliance email newsletter, the content of which which I'll copy underneath. If you watch it through to the end, it opens a menu of other related videos. 

*QUOTE.. *
Dear Taxpayer,
yesterday, Wayne Swan confirmed what we all knew: Julia Gillard's pledge to deliver a budget surplus was a lie. After years of waste and spending that would put a drunken sailor to shame, the money just isn't there. Just like how "there will be no carbon tax", the budget surplus lie has been exposed. 

We created this short YouTube video exposing the deceit urging people to take action. I hope you will watch it and share with all your friends! The "There Will Be A Budget Surplus" Lie:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVK5R4aCIkQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player  Please forward this to your friends, share this video on facebook: , on Twitter:  , and on Google +1. Together, we will fight back. And we WILL win. 
*Tim Andrews
Executive Director
Australian Taxpayers' Alliance*
Web: www.taxpayers.org.au
Email: enquiries@taxpayers.org.au
PO Box A2208
Sydney South, NSW 1235 
Australia
*..UNQUOTE*


----------



## sydboy007

I'm all for the Government cutting family tax benefits and child care rebates.  Wouldn't have a problem if they limited the tax benefits to super either - by 2015 it will cost more in more in tax forgone than is spent on the pension.

hey presto, not only would the budget be in surplus by at least 1%, the Govt could also provide income tax cuts too.

Slight problem could be reducing Govt spending to the fam tax benefits and child care rebate might send consumer spending into a downward spiral, leading to a higher unemployment rate, lower tax receipts, higher welfare payments, and maybe even a recession.

I wonder what spending cuts other people are willing to make.

Oh, and I haven't hear Tony say surpluses in his first term are a blood promise.  Remember Tonys (other) spiritual leader gave us the core and non core promise.


----------



## sails

sydboy007 said:


> I'm all for the Government cutting family tax benefits and child care rebates.  Wouldn't have a problem if they limited the tax benefits to super either - by 2015 it will cost more in more in tax forgone than is spent on the pension.
> 
> hey presto, not only would the budget be in surplus by at least 1%, the Govt could also provide income tax cuts too.
> 
> Slight problem could be reducing Govt spending to the fam tax benefits and child care rebate might send consumer spending into a downward spiral, leading to a higher unemployment rate, lower tax receipts, higher welfare payments, and maybe even a recession.
> 
> I wonder what spending cuts other people are willing to make.
> 
> Oh, and I haven't hear Tony say surpluses in his first term are a blood promise.  Remember Tonys (other) spiritual leader gave us the core and non core promise.





Any backflips of Howard are minuscule in comparison to the Gillard backflips...

It's almost got to the point where one can assume the opposite with anything Gillard says.

She said "No carbon tax" (and we got one)

She said she would stop the boats (we have never had so many boats)

She said there would be a surplus until a few days ago (and now we don't)

She said the world would end according to the Mayan Calendar (and it didn't)

She calls Abbott a misogynist and yet he has a loving wife, three lovely daughters and female staff including his chief of staff.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

And the list could go on and on and on and on....​
When could you rely on the opposite being the case whenever Howard spoke?  He wasn't perfect, but I have never seen any PM get it wrong so often as Gillard.


----------



## MrBurns

The first sensible words from Mungo Maccallum I've ever seen - 



> Julia Gillard swore blind that the budget would be back in surplus this year. She vowed it week-after-week, month-after-month. And now she has abandoned her solemn oath, gone on holiday and left it to her hapless treasurer to break the bad news. What can you say? Well, quite a lot, actually, argues Mungo MacCallum.
> 
> So Julia Gillard has broken another promise and of course Tony Abbott, on our behalf, is totally outraged.
> 
> She swore blind that the budget would be back in surplus this year, no ifs, no buts, come hell or high water it would be done. She vowed it day in, day out, week-after-week, month-after-month, year-after-year.
> 
> *And now she abandons her solemn oath and she hasn't even got the guts to tell us herself - she goes on holiday and leaves it to her hapless treasurer, Wayne Swan, to break the bad news. I mean, what can you say?*




http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4442368.html


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> The first sensible words from Mungo Maccallum I've ever seen -



Thanks, Mr Burns.  Agree that it's pretty atypical from Mungo Macallum.  

However, one of his most realistic points is this:


> But given that every rational economist has been urging this course of action for some time, uncommitted voters are more likely to regard it as a belated but sensible piece of pragmatism rather than the terrible moral betrayal Abbott is spruiking. And I suspect it will do the Government a lot less harm than the desperate attempt to preserve the budget at all costs - even at the cost of other, perhaps more immediate, commitments.




I think he's right.  After the months of frustration with the government's unrealistic assertions that they will produce a surplus, the main response on the ditching of this does seem to have been relief, even praise.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Thanks, Mr Burns.  Agree that it's pretty atypical from Mungo Macallum.
> 
> However, one of his most realistic points is this:
> 
> 
> I think he's right.  After the months of frustration with the government's unrealistic assertions that they will produce a surplus, the main response on the ditching of this does seem to have been relief, even praise.




Double c in Maccallum ?

I think he's just tried to salvage something out of it, I don't think anyone cares if we have a surplus or not, it's the way it's been handled that's at issue, they've really made themselves look like idiots when it really wasnt nessessary.
They have no idea.


----------



## dutchie

**** Craig Emerson to release new song ****

 An EMI spokesperson has stated that the new release was to be put out before Xmas but because of circumstances beyond their control it won't be released until the new year. However they did release some of the lyrics of the new song.

You know the tune...

"No Promised Surplus right there on my TV
No Promised Surplus right there on my TV
No Promised Surplus right there on my TV
Shockin' me right out of my brain
Shockin' me right out of my brain"


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> **** Craig Emerson to release new song ****
> 
> An EMI spokesperson has stated that the new release was to be put out before Xmas but because of circumstances beyond their control it won't be released until the new year. However they did release some of the lyrics of the new song.
> 
> You know the tune...
> 
> "No Promised Surplus right there on my TV
> No Promised Surplus right there on my TV
> No Promised Surplus right there on my TV
> Shockin' me right out of my brain
> Shockin' me right out of my brain"


----------



## shag

kennas said:


> How is this one going by the way? Anyone know? Last I heard the rollout and take-up have been pretty average. Another white elephant?




we may get it....this decade.....kennas
when i looked our rollout was beyond my timeframes anyway. 2015? 
i already have post 20meg/s anyway on cheapo plan, 4 years, on cu/copper.
neighbours optics cable is often down for long periods while my cu is always fine.

kill the witch i say. a public burning is appealing with her fiscal tool/fool, the fat one. bondi runs large public events...
sell tickets maybe to pay down their debt. 

cu should run 100m/s if they wished imo. fibre optics was from my uni days, ie the dim ages, just like the hume highway, in its present state.


----------



## sails

This is worrying for our freedom of speech and considering Gillard has control of both houses, there is nothing to stop this sort of legislation getting through easily...:

Is this the beginning of political control such as is seen under communist regimes? 



> 'Roxon's Human Rights and Anti-discrimination Bill 2012 will not only extend the range of conduct deemed unlawful from matters of race to matters of religion, social origin, nationality and political opinions. Her bill also removes any notion of objectivity. *It is enough that conduct by one person "offends, insults or intimidates" another person. *This completes the legal slide from words that incite violence to those that merely insult. Sensible gradations of offence have been lost.'




Full Article:
Nanny Roxon won't let you spit the dummy


----------



## Julia

Agree, sails.  This was first raised a few weeks ago and I was incredulous.  Since then it is being peddled as 'entirely reasonable and sensible' by various of the luvvies on ABC Radio.  Will the Greens support it to get the legislation through?  Not sure.  The Coalition certainly won't.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Agree, sails.  This was first raised a few weeks ago and I was incredulous.  Since then it is being peddled as 'entirely reasonable and sensible' by various of the luvvies on ABC Radio.  Will the Greens support it to get the legislation through?  Not sure.  The Coalition certainly won't.




Unfortunately, with the labor leaning independents and the labor/green senate all supporting Gillard, I think they will have no problem pushing it through both houses easily.  The coalition are powerless at this stage which is so wrong as it appears that two of those independents come from strongly conservative electorates whom they are clearly not representing.

I shudder to think what other legislation this minority lot have been pushing through.  I can only hope that the coalition get a good majority in both houses as that is the only way that this country can be put back on the right track again by repealing any damaging legislation.

Although, the senate doesn't change until mid 2014, so it will take time.


----------



## Julia

From "The Australian 28 December:







> UN funding rises as efficiency drive hits public service
> 
> AUSTRALIA'S financial contribution to the UN will rise by at least 14 per cent next year as the government pushes ahead with a drive to slash departmental expenses and promote public service efficiencies.


----------



## Calliope

The polls are looking better for Labor.





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...r-from-a-victory/story-e6frg75f-1226544786837


----------



## noco

So Jenny Macklin can live on $35 per day. What an absolute she is to make a comment like that.!!!

She takes home over $6000 per week.

Read the rest.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-dole-for-a-week/story-fncyva0b-1226546531719


----------



## Calliope

Who cares whether Jenny Macklin could live on the $35 per day Newstart Allownnce . The dole is deliberately kept low so that recipients * cannot* live on it. If they could live on it they *wouldn't look for a job.*




> THE Greens have challenged Families Minister Jenny Macklin to live on the dole for a week after she declared she could manage on the $245-a-week unemployment allowance.
> 
> Acting Leader Adam Bandt invited Ms Macklin to join him in trying to pay food, rent and bills on Newstart for seven days in February.
> 
> Ms Macklin - who has gone to ground today and is refusing to comment any further on the issue - has come under fire from welfare groups for claim she could live on the $35-a-day dole payment




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...to-those-on-dole/story-fn59niix-1226546468804


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> Who cares whether Jenny Macklin could live on the $35 per day Newstart Allownnce . The dole is deliberately kept low so that recipients * cannot* live on it. If they could live on it they *wouldn't look for a job.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...to-those-on-dole/story-fn59niix-1226546468804




Good point.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Who cares whether Jenny Macklin could live on the $35 per day Newstart Allownnce . The dole is deliberately kept low so that recipients * cannot* live on it. If they could live on it they *wouldn't look for a job.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...to-those-on-dole/story-fn59niix-1226546468804




Yes Calliope I agree with you. The point I was making was the stupid statement Macklin made.

She was probably only thinking of goes in her mouth and judging by th size of her she would probably eat $35 worth of food a day.


----------



## Julia

The dole needs to be low enough to drive recipients to look for a job but not so low that it impedes their capacity to do this.  $35 per day is not enough.  It wouldn't even pay the rent on most one bedroom flats in capital cities, let alone allow for children to have their own room.

If a person cannot meet the rent, let alone buy food, pay utilities, phone etc, get to job interviews, how is the extremely low payment promoting their capacity to find a job?
All it will do is drive the rate of homelessness higher, not to mention the misery to so many of living below the poverty line.

If we can house asylum seekers in air conditioned comfort, provide taxpayer funded housing for them, how the hell is it appropriate to treat job seekers so much less helpfully?


----------



## DocK

As I understand it the main group who are about to suffer a large reduction in benefits are single parents whose youngest child is over 6 or 7 - due to changes in legislation they'll go from sole parent to newstart allowance?  My concern is that those sole parents of "difficult" children, or those with disabilities, who have little or no family support system will be made to suffer, along with their kids.  Not all young children are suited (or welcome) in before or after school care programmes so that Mum or Dad can hold down a job.  Yes, society wants to reduce the burden on the tax system and encourage sole parents to return to work - but I'm sure we don't want to see single mums turning tricks to make ends meet, or having entire families living in one room as rents become unmanageable.  Naturally there are those who will always milk the system for all they can - and we'd all like to see them forced to get a job - but it seems that a lot of single parents and their kids are going to suffer on such a pittance that newstart allowance provides.


----------



## sails

DocK, I agree with you.  

To force single mums out to work when their kids are still in primary school is unbelievable.  What happens when the child/ren get sick? I help out a lot with my little 6 year old granddaughter and it is hard work!  Pretty tough for mums to have to get the child/ren off to school in the morning with packed lunch, go to work herself and then what does she do at 3pm?  Will her boss let her go home if she can't afford after school care?

If she can afford after school care, then she gets home about 5-6pm at night to try and cook dinner (that's if she has had time to fit in some shopping).  Then it's homework, baths and kids to bed.  Then she probably has to do dishes, put on a load or two of washing and hang that out.  One weary mother drops into bed at night and sets the alarm to do it all again the next day.

And, then if the child gets sick and can't go to school and there is no-one else to care for it - what happens then?  Does the mother leave the child illegally at home on their own or do they take time of work and risk being made destitute (and possibly homeless) on newstart?

If the age was reduced to 12 it would make more sense as kids in highschool are more able to get themselves to and from school and even do some useful jobs to help out.  Also, they are legally permitted to be at home on their own.

I feel that this will force more people into homelessness and make life even tougher for kids who are already disadvantaged.  And, meanwhile, boat arrivals are given housing which our own battlers find almost impossible to get.


----------



## Daffyduck

Julia said:


> The dole needs to be low enough to drive recipients to look for a job but not so low that it impedes their capacity to do this.  *$35 per day is not enough.  It wouldn't even pay the rent on most one bedroom flats in capital cities, let alone allow for children to have their own room.*
> 
> If a person cannot meet the rent, let alone buy food, pay utilities, phone etc, get to job interviews, how is the extremely low payment promoting their capacity to find a job?
> All it will do is drive the rate of homelessness higher, not to mention the misery to so many of living below the poverty line.
> 
> If we can house asylum seekers in air conditioned comfort, provide taxpayer funded housing for them, how the hell is it appropriate to treat job seekers so much less helpfully?





Just to clear this up as alot of people, media included, get this wrong. Anyone receiving Newstart allowance also receives rent assistance which is about another $10 or so per day. Everyone seems to overlook the rent assistance and even though the total amount is still a pittance compared to a normal wage, it still makes a big difference.

These new changes are disgusting imho. How Jenny Macklin can claim she could live on this level of income is insane and it just goes to show how out of touch some of these people are. A week on this sort of income wouldn't prove anything anyway, i'd like to see her try it for 3 months or so, i'm sure she'd change her tune if she really found out what it was like.

About time the pollies took a pay/perk cut and/or make the illegal immigrants pay their welfare back if they want to cut spending.


----------



## Julia

Daffyduck said:


> Just to clear this up as alot of people, media included, get this wrong. Anyone receiving Newstart allowance also receives rent assistance which is about another $10 or so per day. Everyone seems to overlook the rent assistance and even though the total amount is still a pittance compared to a normal wage, it still makes a big difference.



I was aware of the rent assistance, having worked in the welfare sector for many years.  Just didn't think it worth mentioning as it's not enough to ameliorate the situation.  At best it still only brings the total to around $300.  I cannot imagine anyone not sharing accommodation being able to manage on that if they are also running a car, paying insurances, electricity, medical expenses etc.

However, there was a radio talkback late last night on this where the presenter invited people living on the dole to call.  Many did.  One was in despair about his situation, but all the others - although saying it was very hard - said that with very careful budgeting and accepting that they couldn't go to movies, out for meals etc., they did manage.    One bloke said that, although he couldn't go to the pub "as often as he'd like" he still bought grog every 'payday'.

So the government does have a point, I guess.  The taxpayer shouldn't be funding life to be so pleasant on the dole that the incentive to get a job is removed.

Sails, thousands of women with several children to care for do work full time.  I'm pretty sure subsidised child care is available though don't know any details.

The point I can't avoid coming back to is that we provide housing for asylum seekers in our communities, and give them the allowance only marginally below what our own unemployed people receive.  Cannot see that as right.
And some of our Australian charities should be helping our own people before they worry so much about the boat arrivals.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...
> Sails, thousands of women with several children to care for do work full time.  I'm pretty sure subsidised child care is available though don't know any details.
> 
> The point I can't avoid coming back to is that we provide housing for asylum seekers in our communities, and give them the allowance only marginally below what our own unemployed people receive.  Cannot see that as right.
> And some of our Australian charities should be helping our own people before they worry so much about the boat arrivals.





Julia, yes thousands of women with young children do work, however I think you will find they either have a supportive partner OR they have other back up help with family or friends who are not working and are free to help.  

And yes, there is childcare, however (again!) they will not take children who are sick or have an infectious disease.  School sores has been doing to rounds where we live and that requires at least two days off school/childcare while antibiotics are given and some doctors say the wounds need to be healed before they will give the OK to return to school/childcare - and that can take a week or more.  Then there are the high fevered flus where a child is simply too sick to go to school.  What does a single mother with no outside help do?  Does she leave a child under 12 illegally at home on their own?  If she takes days off, good chance she will lose her job and be reduced to newstart which is not enough in itself to even pay rent.

And many of these single mums can't get into public housing which would relieve much of the financial pressure in keeping a roof over their heads and yet boat arrivals seem to be taking the housing so badly needed by some of our own. Fully agree with your comments.

I also think it would have been better if the baby bonus had been restricted to maybe 2-3 kids and on a reducing basis to help remove the carrot for single mums to keep having more kids with the current policy planned for about 8 years away so that single mums are fully aware of the financial responsibilities they will need to pick up.   To have given them the carrot of a baby bonus and then to cut back their payments without much warning seems to be further disadvantaging these children even further.  It seems they are trying to shut the gate after the horse has bolted.  Better to shut the gate first!

I would think the likely outcome of this would be that there will be more homeless people and more kids being taken into foster care.  That will likely cost the government far more than the few dollars they will save with this policy.  I understand it is only about $170 million they will save per year.

It would appear the greens have opposed this so it looks like the coalition have supported labor on this policy which is disappointing.  Possibly our pollies have never experienced life as a single mum with no or little outside help from family/friends.

It is young children who are likely to suffer from this policy and that is never acceptable, imo.


----------



## Calliope

All "single mums" became mums by choice, many just to get the ill-considered baby bonus. Thus by choice they are trying to raise kids they can't afford. They then expect the taxpayer to become the surrogate father. 

Yes, I know, I know, it's the kids that suffer, so the taxpayer has no alternative to picking up the tab, even though these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parents.


----------



## DocK

Calliope said:


> All "single mums" became mums by choice, many just to get the ill-considered baby bonus. Thus by choice they are trying to raise kids they can't afford. They then expect the taxpayer to become the surrogate father.
> 
> Yes, I know, I know, it's the kids that suffer, so the taxpayer has no alternative to picking up the tab, even though these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parents.




So the many women whose husbands/partners have decided to abandon them made that choice did they?  Did the 18 year-old who accidentally became pregnant and chose to keep her baby make that conscious decision?  Did the single Dad whose wife decided it was all too hard and ran off leaving him with 3 kids to bring up on his own make that choice also?  What about those who've decided to remove their kids from a violent/abusive home and go it alone rather than stay with a "breadwinner" who likes to use his kids as punching bags?  It's very easy to throw out generalisations like your's above - life's not always just as Today Tonight or A Current Affair would have you believe.  There are a lot of single parents - mums and dads - who never in a million years intended or dreamt they'd find themselves in that position.  

To write off an entire demographic of kids with a sweeping statement that 







> these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parents



 is judgemental beyond words imo.  It takes more than money to raise a child - I'd rather a single parent who loved and supported me than two parents who paid little attention.  It must be a black-and-white world where you live.


----------



## Calliope

[DocK;745083







> It takes more than money to raise a child - I'd rather a single parent who loved and supported me than two parents who paid little attention.




This issue is about giving "single mums" more money, and not about moral or ethical standards.That is another issue entirely. 



> It must be a black-and-white world where you live




Why?...because I don't believe the taxpayer should have to bail out people who have made stupid decisions?




> To write off an entire demographic of kids with a sweeping statement that
> these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parent




Once you are in the cycle of poverty it's hard for the off-spring to break free.


----------



## DocK

DocK said:


> It takes more than money to raise a child - I'd rather a single parent who loved and supported me than two parents who paid little attention.






Calliope said:


> This issue is about giving "single mums" more money, and not about moral or ethical standards.That is another issue entirely.



My comment was in response to your remark that _these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parents_.  I disagree with your assertion that that if you're born poor, or brought up poor, that you are somehow destined to stay in the rut your parent/s created.



DocK said:


> It must be a black-and-white world where you live.






Calliope said:


> Why?...because I don't believe the taxpayer should have to bail out people who have made stupid decisions?




Did you even read my examples of those single parents who did not choose their way of life?  Are you saying that every single parent became so deliberately and made a stupid decison?  



DocK said:


> To write off an entire demographic of kids with a sweeping statement that
> these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parent





Calliope said:


> Once you are in the cycle of poverty it's hard for the off-spring to break free.




See my comment above - there are a lot of self-made people who would disagree with you.  It's hard, but it's certainly possible, especially if the single parent raising you is able to feed and house you at a basic standard at least.


----------



## Calliope

I am not the only one who thinks that poverty begets poverty and yet I am accused of being judgmental and living in a black and white world. The parents of these "half a million children " mentioned below may love them to bits, but they are dooming them to a life of disadvantage.




> We must avoid at all costs policy that encourages intergenerational welfare dependency, for if there is one thing worse than a child living in reduced circumstances, it is an adult whose childhood experience has equipped him poorly for working life. In 2007-08, more than half a million children were in the invidious position of living in a household with no working adult, almost two-thirds of those in one-parent families




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...form-by-accident/story-e6frg71x-1226546776270


----------



## Calliope

​


DocK said:


> Are you saying that every single parent became so deliberately and made a stupid decision




 Of course not.




> See my comment above - there are a lot of self-made people who would disagree with you.  It's hard, but it's certainly possible, especially if the single parent raising you is able to feed and house you at a basic standard at least.[/




I don't doubt it. Anything is possible..


----------



## DocK

Calliope said:


> I am not the only one who thinks that poverty begets poverty and yet I am accused of being judgmental and living in a black and white world. The parents of these "half a million children " mentioned below may love them to bits, but they are dooming them to a life of disadvantage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...form-by-accident/story-e6frg71x-1226546776270




From the same article: 







> There is, however, a strong case for reviewing the adequacy of the Newstart payment with reference to the cost of living.



  You seem to be determined to argue points I have not made, and not address those that I have.  I'm all for single parents re-entering the workforce where possible - but sometimes it simply is not, and the pittance they are now being expected to live on is too little imo.

You have failed to answer my question - Do you maintain that all single parents made stupid decisions and became so deliberately?  Those are your comments that I find to be particularly judgemental and sweeping.  You do rather seem to be dismissing all single parents as stupid people who deliberately set out to bludge on the welfare system and are now crying poor rather than getting off their bums and finding a job.  Sounds judgemental to me, which is why I asked for clarification.

Never mind, I see our posts crossed.  I'm glad you've changed your position re all single parents having chosen their circumstances.  It is so easy to write off an entire section of our community due to preconceived ideas fostered by alarmist media.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> ...Once you are in the cycle of poverty it's hard for the off-spring to break free.




Agree with that statement, but why put them into even worse poverty?  Will these young ones take to stealing and other crime because mum is at work and there is no-one supervising?

I'm more for stopping or reducing the baby bonus after 2-3 kids and even then it should be a reduced amount for each subsequent child.  In my day we had no such baby bonus.  I don't know why we need it now.  Surely this is the first step to making people more aware of the financial responsibilities of raising a child?

But this new policy seems to have shut the gate after the horse has bolted.  Stopping (or severely reducing) the baby bonus would surely be a better way to help shut the gate in the first place.


----------



## Calliope

DocK said:


> .
> 
> You have failed to answer my question - Do you maintain that all single parents made stupid decisions and became so deliberately?  Those are your comments that I find to be particularly judgemental and sweeping..




Wrong again. Read my last post.

From sails;



> Agree with that statement, but why put them into even worse poverty? Will these young ones take to stealing and other crime because mum is at work and there is no-one supervising?




If anyone knew the answer as to whether pouring more money into the welfare system, will fix the plight of unmarried mothers, we would not be having this discussion.


----------



## DocK

DocK said:


> ...snip....
> 
> Never mind, I see our posts crossed.  I'm glad you've changed your position re all single parents having chosen their circumstances.  It is so easy to write off an entire section of our community due to preconceived ideas fostered by alarmist media.






Calliope said:


> Wrong again. Read my last post.




Guess you didn't read the edited version - our posts crossed.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Agree with that statement, but why put them into even worse poverty?  Will these young ones take to stealing and other crime because mum is at work and there is no-one supervising?



I suppose that's not an inevitable outcome.  Poor doesn't necessarily mean amoral, often quite the contrary.
I understand your point, sails, just worry rather that we do have a tendency to expect the worst of people rather than the best and that's entirely counterproductive.



> I'm more for stopping or reducing the baby bonus after 2-3 kids and even then it should be a reduced amount for each subsequent child.  In my day we had no such baby bonus.  I don't know why we need it now.  Surely this is the first step to making people more aware of the financial responsibilities of raising a child?
> 
> But this new policy seems to have shut the gate after the horse has bolted.  Stopping (or severely reducing) the baby bonus would surely be a better way to help shut the gate in the first place.



Agree entirely.  The baby bonus was one of Costello's most poorly conceived thought bubbles.
His hypothesis was that more children would grow up to expand the tax base and therefore support the growing numbers in retirement.  That would be fine if the people who would rear children to do that were the ones influenced by a few thousand dollars.  They were not.  The intelligent, thoughtful people with a strong work ethic would never have been induced to have a child they would not otherwise have because of a financial incentive.

But we did see the poorly educated, more difficult to employ young women seeing just the dollar signs.
We saw hundreds of them at the community centre where they came because they couldn't balance their budgets.  Asking these pregnant young women what they would do with the baby bonus, it was inevitably stuff like "take all the kids to Dreamworld", buy new bikes for everyone etc etc.  I can recall just one girl who said she would use it to buy essential baby needs and hopefully have some left over to open a bank account for the child.

Of course not all single mothers are hopeless and condemned for ever to poverty.  But let's remember that it was only a couple of generations ago that there was no such payment for women alone.  They had to work to survive or stay with an often bad marriage.  I'm not suggesting there was anything positive about the latter alternative, but I do think there needs to be a limit to the demands on the taxpayer.

Now it seems to be the 'right' of every woman to have publicly funded IVF so she can have the child that she considers her god given right.  Lesbians in particular are taking advantage of this.  Then they receive the baby bonus and a taxpayer funded benefit.

We have many single mothers with six or more children who are pulling in via welfare considerably more than many working families who are paying the taxes to support them.

My concern is that the balance is becoming out of sync, and for that reason support the principle the government has in mind of getting people into work.
Far more useful in every way for a child to grow up seeing a parent or parents working productively than sitting around passively on welfare.


----------



## Calliope

From DocK



> I'm glad you've changed your position re all single parents having chosen their circumstances. It is so easy to write off an entire section of our community due to preconceived ideas fostered by alarmist media.




I did not state a "position re all single parents having chosen their circumstances." Such an idea is nonsense. I do not change my mind to conform with some "preconceived ideas fostered" by you as to what you imagined I'd said.


----------



## sails

Julia, I agree that many people will take public funding if it is available.  The carrot of the baby bonus will inevitably bring more children to those who can probably least afford to raise children financially unassisted.  The carrot of easy entry into Australia together with housing and all needs provided is giving a massive carrot to asylum seekers.  And I would imagine they are collecting baby bonuses while laughing all the way to the bank.

The carrots need to be removed (including our borders) - and I have no problem with encouraging single parents out to work but perhaps when the youngest turns 12 would be more appropriate as they can legally be left at home on their own.

I think this policy could cost the government more than they will save.  I suspect that foster care will increase, destitute families desperately needing housing will add to the government financial burden and some mothers are very likely to go and get themselves pregnant once again which will reap them yet another baby bonus and another 8 years on the pension.  I can't see where the savings are actually going to be found.

If a woman goes on long enough, she might be able to keep that up until she goes on the old age pension - or she will have enough older children to help her out while she is at work!


----------



## DocK

sails said:


> Julia, I agree that many people will take public funding if it is available.  The carrot of the baby bonus will inevitably bring more children to those who can probably least afford to raise children financially unassisted.  The carrot of easy entry into Australia together with housing and all needs provided is giving a massive carrot to asylum seekers.  And I would imagine they are collecting baby bonuses while laughing all the way to the bank.
> 
> The carrots need to be removed (including our borders) - and I have no problem with encouraging single parents out to work but perhaps when the youngest turns 12 would be more appropriate as they can legally be left at home on their own.
> 
> *I think this policy could cost the government more than they will save.  I suspect that foster care will increase, destitute families desperately needing housing will add to the government financial burden and some mothers are very likely to go and get themselves pregnant once again which will reap them yet another baby bonus and another 8 years on the pension.  I can't see where the savings are actually going to be found.*
> If a woman goes on long enough, she might be able to keep that up until she goes on the old age pension - or she will have enough older children to help her out while she is at work!




I hadn't considered the aspect that I've bolded, but you raise an excellent point - the type of woman who would have a baby purely to get the baby bonus, would no doubt see another pregnancy as a way to stay on a higher benefit - costing the taxpayer even more in the long run!

I agree that ideally single parents should return to work, but this is not always possible without causing undue hardship or undesirable outcomes.  I guess it's no different to other cases of welfare - it's impossible to distinguish between those who really need it vs those that are exploiting the system.  I don't necessarily think it's a case of how old the youngest child is, but of what support systems are in place or available, and the likely outcomes for the child/children concerned.  Perhaps the Govt needs to address the issue of outside school hours care availability before parents of needy kids are placed in a position of needing to leave them for long periods of time.  How much money is going to be saved by these measures vs the amounts wasted on some of the mad schemes over the past few years?  Is this just a case of making cuts that will upset a few but not worry or in fact even please the majority?


----------



## DocK

Calliope said:


> *All "single mums" became mums by choice*, many just to get the ill-considered baby bonus. Thus by choice they are trying to raise kids they can't afford. They then expect the taxpayer to become the surrogate father.
> 
> Yes, I know, I know, it's the kids that suffer, so the taxpayer has no alternative to picking up the tab, even though these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parents.






Calliope said:


> From DocK;I'm glad you've changed your position re all single parents having chosen their circumstances. It is so easy to write off an entire section of our community due to preconceived ideas fostered by alarmist media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not state a "position re all single parents having chosen their circumstances." Such an idea is nonsense. I do not change my mind to conform with some "preconceived ideas fostered" by you as to what you imagined I'd said.
Click to expand...



Best we leave it there I think - it's not really a discussion is it?


----------



## sails

DocK said:


> I hadn't considered the aspect that I've bolded, but you raise an excellent point - the type of woman who would have a baby purely to get the baby bonus, would no doubt see another pregnancy as a way to stay on a higher benefit - costing the taxpayer even more in the long run!
> 
> I agree that ideally single parents should return to work, but this is not always possible without causing undue hardship or undesirable outcomes.  I guess it's no different to other cases of welfare - it's impossible to distinguish between those who really need it vs those that are exploiting the system.  I don't necessarily think it's a case of how old the youngest child is, but of what support systems are in place or available, and the likely outcomes for the child/children concerned.  Perhaps the Govt needs to address the issue of outside school hours care availability before parents of needy kids are placed in a position of needing to leave them for long periods of time.  How much money is going to be saved by these measures vs the amounts wasted on some of the mad schemes over the past few years?  Is this just a case of making cuts that will upset a few but not worry or in fact even please the majority?




DocK, see the link below and it says this policy will save the government over $680 million over four years - that's an average of $170 million per year.  I doubt that will cover the expenses we have mentioned and is mere pocket money to this extravagantly spending government.

While child care is helpful, unfortunately, they are no help if the child is sick with something contagious.  That includes the gastro bugs, things like school sores and if they have a fever.  Who cares for the kids when that happens if family is unavailable, don't want to babysit or are working themselves?   An older child can stay at home on their own (not ideal, but neither is it illegal).

It is the kids that I feel are at risk of being further disadvantaged.  If they had dropped the age from 16 to 12 that would be more reasonable, imo.  But 8 is still very young and I understand it is illegal to leave them at home on their own.  I think it might be illegal in Qld to let a child under 12 walk to school without an adult to accompany them.

So, I guess the single parent families will either have to muddle through with mum at work OR learn to cope with $2500 less in payments per year.  I think they currently get $15,000 in base income per annum so that will be reduced to $12,500 under the new system.  Those are difficult choices and which ever way they decide, it will make life tougher for the kids.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/good-and-bad-news-for-parents-20121230-2c1h4.html


----------



## Calliope

DocK said:


> Best we leave it there I think - it's not really a discussion is it?




No ...more like misrepresentation on your part.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> I think this policy could cost the government more than they will save.  I suspect that foster care will increase, destitute families desperately needing housing will add to the government financial burden and some mothers are very likely to go and get themselves pregnant once again which will reap them yet another baby bonus and another 8 years on the pension.
> 
> If a woman goes on long enough, she might be able to keep that up until she goes on the old age pension - or she will have enough older children to help her out while she is at work!



Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it, and biologically probably not quite possible. However, there absolutely are people who would do this if they could.



DocK said:


> I hadn't considered the aspect that I've bolded, but you raise an excellent point - the type of woman who would have a baby purely to get the baby bonus, would no doubt see another pregnancy as a way to stay on a higher benefit - costing the taxpayer even more in the long run!
> 
> I I don't necessarily think it's a case of how old the youngest child is, but of what support systems are in place or available, and the likely outcomes for the child/children concerned.



I can assure you there are many families where it's of the utmost importance how old the youngest child is.
I've seen quite a few women who have never worked, who have usually five or six children, and who have without shame stated that when the youngest turns 16, they will get pregnant again.

They regard the taxpayer as an idiot.  I've asked many young men what they're doing about finding a job.
In response I've received a blank look and the question "why would I want a job"?

It's very difficult for governments to devise a fair system.  Ideally every individual would be treated one on one with mentoring, and supervision.  Obviously that will never happen so we have amoral people usually from families where no one has ever worked and people who have just had some tough breaks all being treated similarly.


----------



## sydboy007

Calliope said:


> All "single mums" became mums by choice, many just to get the ill-considered baby bonus. Thus by choice they are trying to raise kids they can't afford. They then expect the taxpayer to become the surrogate father.
> 
> Yes, I know, I know, it's the kids that suffer, so the taxpayer has no alternative to picking up the tab, even though these children will never get out of the rut created by thoughtless parents.




What's your proof for this statement?

A lot of people sprout it, but can you name 1 person you directly know who has done this??

I would hazard a guess that most single parents did not plan to have children, or if they did they have been left i the lurch by a partner who walked away from their responsibilities.


----------



## bunyip

Gillard, with her pal Bob Hawke in tow, turned up at the Woodford Folk Festival in Queensland about a week ago. Obviously a publicity stunt that she hopes will rake in some younger voters at the next election.


----------



## chiff

My guess is that Julia Gillards attendance at these events is to create an impression.
An impression that that she is a capable and willing communicator-thus creating a difference with Tony Abbott.


----------



## Miss Hale

bunyip said:


> Gillard, with her pal Bob Hawke in tow, turned up at the Woodford Folk Festival in Queensland about a week ago. Obviously a publicity stunt that she hopes will rake in some younger voters at the next election.




I saw this on the news and was disappointed to hear Hawke trot out the line that Gillard had been a victim of unfair criticism because of her sex.  Never thougth Hawke would stoop so low as to play the sexism card


----------



## Calliope

sydboy007 said:


> What's your proof for this statement?
> 
> A lot of people sprout it, but can you name 1 person you directly know who has done this??
> 
> I would hazard a guess that most single parents did not plan to have children, or if they did they have been left i the lurch by a partner who walked away from their responsibilities.




You're a bit late to the party sydboy. This has been covered _ad infinitum _by DocK and I.


----------



## moXJO

Miss Hale said:


> I saw this on the news and was disappointed to hear Hawke trot out the line that Gillard had been a victim of unfair criticism because of her sex.  Never thougth Hawke would stoop so low as to play the sexism card




Hawk was a drunken loud mouth idiot back in the day.  
He would tell porkies as much as the next poli


----------



## bunyip

Miss Hale said:


> I saw this on the news and was disappointed to hear Hawke trot out the line that Gillard had been a victim of unfair criticism because of her sex.  Never thougth Hawke would stoop so low as to play the sexism card






moXJO said:


> Hawk was a drunken loud mouth idiot back in the day.
> He would tell porkies as much as the next poli




Ah yes.......Bob Hawke – a foul-mouthed, drunken, womanising degenerate back in his heyday, a man of poor character who was capable of blatant dishonesty, and still is. Just the type who would impress someone like Gillard.


----------



## chiff

It sounds like some of you people know Bobby on a personal level.Perhaps you would like to titilate us with some salacious recollections?


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> Ah yes.......Bob Hawke – a foul-mouthed, drunken, womanising degenerate back in his heyday, a man of poor character who was capable of blatant dishonesty, and still is. Just the type who would impress someone like Gillard.




That sums him up, a nasty arrogant ********, who used tears to get votes.
The children are still in poverty Bob , you made that promise while rubbing shoulders with Kerry Packer at the casino with a huge cigar in your mouth.
Backstabbed his wife into the bargain, a Labor legend and a true match for Gillard.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> That sums him up, a nasty arrogant ********, who used tears to get votes.
> The children are still in poverty Bob , you made that promise while rubbing shoulders with Kerry Packer at the casino with a huge cigar in your mouth.
> Backstabbed his wife into the bargain, a Labor legend and a true match for Gillard.




+1 I agree Burnsie.


----------



## moXJO

chiff said:


> It sounds like some of you people know Bobby on a personal level.Perhaps you would like to titilate us with some salacious recollections?



ask him how great he was at kung fu. Loudest wanker in the pub


----------



## DocK

It wouldn't hurt though for Abbott & Co to be a little more visible within the general population.  I'm not suggesting that Tony make an appearance at Summafieldayze or the like, but he needs to be seen as a Man of the People.  I haven't seen much of him on telly lately?  Maybe something connected with women to show wouldn't hurt - is there a netball comp or the like he could open?


----------



## MrBurns

moXJO said:


> ask him how great he was at kung fu. Loudest wanker in the pub




Or how he crushed the pilots when they went on strike for his good mate Sir Peter Ables, funny how Bob was President of the ACTU then PM for a while yet retired with millions, must be just lucky I guess

Cried like a baby at Ables funeral.

Crawled all over Sigrid Thornton at one stage but she fended him off, a creep of the highest order.


----------



## chiff

Such an outpouring of love for our fraternal brother.I am touched!


----------



## DB008

The Weekend Australian Financial Review - Page 41 - "Another fine mess you've got us into"

Very interesting article.


----------



## Logique

With Bob Hawke's as PM, you have to remember it was a different time.  

The Coalition a had a long reign pre-1975, and by 1983 Malcolm Fraser wasn't liked. Hawke was loud and abrasive, a rough diamond, but very bright, and there was a mood for change. History will rank Hawke highly as a PM, certainly much higher than Whitlam, Keating, or Gillard. But not as highly as John Howard.

Bob Hawke was a man for the times, and very popular with voters. 

When you strip away the trappings of power and prestige, then you see the man, and this is what posters above have been commenting on. Think small person syndrome (smaller that 'Little Johnnie'), and euphemistically, an "appetite", to rival JFK.


----------



## Macquack

moXJO said:


> ask him how great he was at kung fu. *Loudest wanker in the pub*




No, that accolade would have to go to Burns.

If he ever dared go to a pub and talk like he does here, someone would knock him out.


----------



## bunyip

Here's an interesting letter from Keating to Hawke - it throws some light on what a dishonest, egotistical dingbat Hawke was and still is.

Not that Keating was a paragon of virtue either, but despite his abrasive nature I think he was a more honourable man that Hawke ever was.

There are many similarities of character between Hawke and Gillard  - which no doubt explains their mutual admiration.
Both are people of poor character who are unfit to lead our country.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/paul-keatings-letter-to-bob-hawke-20100715-10cfx.html


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> No, that accolade would have to go to Burns.
> 
> If he ever dared go to a pub and talk like he does here, someone would knock him out.




Keyboard hero Macquack at it again.

So you're a Hawke fan, that doesn't say much for you now does it.

Do you live in a part of town where people still try to knock each other out ?

I live in a part of town where people who try that are thrown in a cage where they belong.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> Keyboard hero Macquack at it again.
> 
> So you're a Hawke fan, that doesn't say much for you now does it.
> 
> Do you live in a part of town where people still try to knock each other out ?
> 
> I live in a part of town where people who try that are thrown in a cage where they belong.




Is that the best response you can come up with.

Your comebacks used to be more cutting and acid tongued.

Your slipping Burns, pick up your game.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Is that the best response you can come up with.
> 
> Your comebacks used to be more cutting and acid tongued.
> 
> Your slipping Burns, pick up your game.




I was told to go easy on you as you're old and cant even blow out your own birthday candles any more.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> I was told to go easy on you as you're old and cant even blow out your own birthday candles any more.




Now that is better, the truth does hurt.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Now that is better, the truth does hurt.





You've only got 866 posts ? 
I thought you were busier in here than that.


----------



## sptrawler

bunyip said:


> Here's an interesting letter from Keating to Hawke - it throws some light on what a dishonest, egotistical dingbat Hawke was and still is.
> 
> Not that Keating was a paragon of virtue either, but despite his abrasive nature I think he was a more honourable man that Hawke ever was.
> 
> There are many similarities of character between Hawke and Gillard  - which no doubt explains their mutual admiration.
> Both are people of poor character who are unfit to lead our country.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/national/paul-keatings-letter-to-bob-hawke-20100715-10cfx.html




Yes, bunyip, I can't wait to see who gets the wrap for the post gfc, stuff up. The nasties have bandied together and are finger pointing at Rudd. 
I would love to see how Swan comes out.lol


----------



## MrBurns

Notice how Gillard has got her head on TV a lot today, first the Tassie fires then the cricket and the McGrath foundation , election year ? You betcha 

She's as cunning and calculating as  sh******* rat.


----------



## DB008

MrBurns said:


> Notice how Gillard has got her head on TV a lot today, first the Tassie fires then the cricket and the McGrath foundation , election year ? You betcha
> 
> She's as cunning and calculating as  sh******* rat.




Good pick up. Her PR/Media department must be in over-drive after the NYE hangover...LOL...


----------



## sptrawler

It will take more than removing the strine and popping your head up at music festivals.
The goose is cooked, they are just trying to put sauce on it, to make it edible.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> You've only got 866 posts ?
> I thought you were busier in here than that.




Quality not quantity.

In my case, I do not exacerbate my lack of quality with to much quantity.


----------



## bunyip

sptrawler said:


> Yes, bunyip, I can't wait to see who gets the wrap for the post gfc, stuff up. The nasties have bandied together and are finger pointing at Rudd.
> I would love to see how Swan comes out.lol




Which nasties are you referring to?

Rudd does have a lot to answer for. Above all he should be remembered as the idiot who, along with his deputy Gillard, threw out a policy that was doing a good job of keeping illegal boat people out, and replaced it with an idealistic and ill-considered policy that opened the flood gates to invasion from the north by people who are straining our resources and costing us thousands of millions of dollars a year. 

Secondly, Rudd should be remembered, again with his deputy Gillard and his henchman Swan, as the fool who splashed money around with reckless abandon in pursuit of his grandiose dream to create ‘an education revolution’. More than twenty billion dollars later, our education standards have declined below what they were when Rudd took over.

For the life of me I can’t see why the media keep telling us how popular Rudd was and is. Popular with whom?? His own party dumped him because he was so unpopular with the electorate that the ALP was facing an almost certain landslide defeat if Rudd led them to the election. He didn’t even come close to rolling Gillard during the leadership challenge last year. Clearly he was unpopular with his own party and with Australians generally. So why do they keep telling us he is or was popular?


----------



## MrBurns

The First Bloke................

Tim Matheson, the First Bloke and Tony Abbott somehow ended up at the same barber shop.

As they sat there, each being worked on by a different barber, not a word was spoken.

The barbers were both afraid to start a conversation, for fear it would turn to politics.

As the barbers finished their shaves, the one who had Tim in his chair reached for the aftershave.

Tim was quick to stop him jokingly saying, "No thanks, Julia will smell that and think I've been in a brothel."

The second barber turned to Abbott and said, "How about you" Mr. Abbott?"

Abbott replied, "Go ahead, my wife doesn't know what the inside of a brothel smells like".


----------



## sails

No need to be nasty, MacQuack.


----------



## Macquack

sails said:


> No need to be nasty, MacQuack.




Burns is a serial offender.

Anybody with a memory will remember Burn's insidious character assasination of Kevin Rudd. His new target is Julia Gillard.

I am no big fan of Julia Gillard, but a *bit of respect is in order*.


----------



## Julia

Oh dear.  And I thought the new year was off to a quite civilised start until now.
:bad:


----------



## Calliope

Burnsie, please take it easy and ignore the provocation.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Burnsie, please take it easy and ignore the provocation.




I will


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> Burnsie, please take it easy and ignore the provocation.




Good to see you trying to stabilise a situation, albeit with a bit of a stir.

Politicians are merely instruments voted in by the overall electorate.  The voters blew the whistle, deals or no deals, mind flipping changes or not; so get over it and work positively for your respective parties on the next election.  

What is past is gone, shake and move on.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> Oh dear.  And I thought the new year was off to a quite civilised start until now.
> :bad:



You know, before I came to ASF I didnt really discuss politics much, if at all.

I remember being somewhat happier (ignorant too) then.  Whether it is right or not, it kind of feels like politics (whether it is the reactions to the policies or the actual "benefit" derived from them) only brings angst, saddness, despondancy, and all of those sort of negative emotions. You don't find much positive written in the sphere of politics any more. I thought the ultimate goal of society would be something along the lines of happiness (although as a utopic idea it is nigh impossible) but I don't see much evidence that anything political seems to bring much if anything of this ideal. Perhaps I'm just a cynic.


----------



## Julia

That's a very reasonable observation, vesupria, sadly.

Why do you think it is so?


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Kevin Rudd was almost as bad as Gillard and millions know it, no respect is required.



In the end, he got no respect from Wayne Swan nor Julia Gillard.

They gave him very much the opposite.


----------



## So_Cynical

MrBurns said:


> Notice how Gillard has got her head on TV a lot today, first the Tassie fires then the cricket and the McGrath foundation , election year ? You betcha
> 
> She's as cunning and calculating as  sh******* rat.




Well wonders will never cease...a Prime Minister on TV. 

-----

Actually has anyone else noticed her ear lobes...weird.


----------



## drsmith

I dunno about the ear lobes, but the vast majority will be happy indeed when she's finally no longer gracing the idiot box.


----------



## So_Cynical

drsmith said:


> I dunno about the ear lobes, but the vast majority will be happy indeed when she's finally no longer gracing the idiot box.




LOL 1 vote Tony and the idiot box seem to be a match made in a Catholic heaven. 

-----------

Seriously have a look at her ear lobes next time she's on the telly.


----------



## MrBurns

So_Cynical said:


> Well wonders will never cease...a Prime Minister on TV.
> 
> -----
> 
> Actually has anyone else noticed her ear lobes...weird.




Funny I didn't see her on tv to announce the breaking of the surplus promise


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> Burns is a serial offender.
> 
> Anybody with a memory will remember Burn's insidious character assasination of Kevin Rudd. His new target is Julia Gillard.
> 
> I am no big fan of Julia Gillard, but a *bit of respect is in order*.




How can you say that, when Swan and the boys character assasinated Rudd worse than any of us could do on a public forum. 
By the way Swan was his deputy, Burns'y just doesn't like him, obviously MrBurns is a better character judge than yourself.LOL


----------



## Calliope

So_Cynical said:


> Seriously have a look at her ear lobes next time she's on the telly.





The cartoonists picked it up ages ago...the hair, the butt, the nose the legs and the ear-lobes.


----------



## sptrawler

Look you have to give Julia credit where credit is due, she has the 'hide of a Rhino', reminds me of Carmen Lawrence.
What I would really like is an journalist to ask Swanee " what's 7 X 8 " out of the blue, I think he would gag.LOL


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> Notice how Gillard has got her head on TV a lot today, first the Tassie fires then the cricket and the McGrath foundation , election year ? You betcha
> 
> She's as cunning and calculating as  sh******* rat.




Just heard she's flying to Tasmania today
As if they didn't have enough to put up with at present without Gillard using their misfortune as a political opportunity


----------



## Logique

bunyip said:


> Here's an interesting letter from Keating to Hawke....http://www.theage.com.au/national/paul-keatings-letter-to-bob-hawke-20100715-10cfx.html



Interesting indeed, and should be read for posterity. Keating understands Hawke's character well. The content of the letter tallies with my recollection of events. There was a long period where Hawke was barely functioning, and Keating was a rock for the government.


----------



## chiff

I think that David Lange summed Hawkey up fairly well when he claimed that Bob was his own point of reference.


----------



## Ves

Julia said:


> That's a very reasonable observation, vesupria, sadly.
> 
> Why do you think it is so?



I believe that there is a disconnect between the illusion of importance that we give politicians within society and the reality of what they actually achieve.  There is a certain feeling of disappointment when we put so much value on these people and they do not deliver anything substantial.  The problem seems to with the system or at least what it is becoming, but this gets lost within the blame games, cheer-leading and finger pointing towards "the other side."  So it just seems to hopelessly perpetuate itself.


----------



## MrBurns

Ves said:


> I believe that there is a disconnect between the illusion of importance that we give politicians within society and the reality of what they actually achieve.  There is a certain feeling of disappointment when we put so much value on these people and they do not deliver anything substantial.  The problem seems to with the system or at least what it is becoming, but this gets lost within the blame games, cheer-leading and finger pointing towards "the other side."  So it just seems to hopelessly perpetuate itself.




I think the system is badly flawed and it's fuelled by the media, we should have our best and brightest in Canberra but he "system" favours those who manipulate best.


----------



## drsmith

Labor's budget fantasy and how we pay for it.



> a) It's most unlikely that budget surpluses to 2016 will materialise
> 
> b) Forward budgets increase spending to 17% PA more by 2016
> 
> c) The plan is to pay for that by 25% increased income from personal taxes, and 37% increased GST income among other major increases




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...y-pierpont-a-bigger-scandal-that-the-awu.html


----------



## sptrawler

Ves said:


> I believe that there is a disconnect between the illusion of importance that we give politicians within society and the reality of what they actually achieve.  There is a certain feeling of disappointment when we put so much value on these people and they do not deliver anything substantial.  The problem seems to with the system or at least what it is becoming, but this gets lost within the blame games, cheer-leading and finger pointing towards "the other side."  So it just seems to hopelessly perpetuate itself.




At last, Ves a post that I agree with.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Labor's budget fantasy and how we pay for it.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...y-pierpont-a-bigger-scandal-that-the-awu.html




A great link Doc, interesting reading.
One thing for sure is the only thing saving our ar$e, is the fact our minerals are on the surface.
For the government to believe we are going to 'leap' ahead of the world with technology and 'new energy' projects, is the silliest thing I've heard in years.

Look at it logically, when we discovered all the raw materials in the mid 60's, governments placed conditions on the mining companies, that they value add.Kwinana, Whyalla, Newcastle etc were built.

Well 50 years later, we mine more than ever and value add less than ever.
So now we are going to be the clever country, I think that was the Hawke/ Keating call.
Now we have a literacy problem in universities.lol
We probably need the unions to push for more student free days for teachers to brush up, bring back Carmen.

When I played sport (many years ago) I was allways told be carefull you are not dragged down to the oppositions level.
Well the problem I see is the only difference between us and the other raw material producers is the lack of population.
Once that's fixed, watch out.


----------



## sydboy007

sptrawler said:


> A great link Doc, interesting reading.
> One thing for sure is the only thing saving our ar$e, is the fact our minerals are on the surface.
> For the government to believe we are going to 'leap' ahead of the world with technology and 'new energy' projects, is the silliest thing I've heard in years.
> 
> Look at it logically, when we discovered all the raw materials in the mid 60's, governments placed conditions on the mining companies, that they value add.Kwinana, Whyalla, Newcastle etc were built.
> 
> Well 50 years later, we mine more than ever and value add less than ever.
> So now we are going to be the clever country, I think that was the Hawke/ Keating call.
> Now we have a literacy problem in universities.lol
> We probably need the unions to push for more student free days for teachers to brush up, bring back Carmen.
> 
> When I played sport (many years ago) I was allways told be carefull you are not dragged down to the oppositions level.
> Well the problem I see is the only difference between us and the other raw material producers is the lack of population.
> Once that's fixed, watch out.




Problem is the private sector hasn't invested to maintain their competitiveness in a lot of the resource industries.  There nearly as bad as the US congress on trying to sort out infrastruture issues - just see how long it takes them to agree to new port infrastructure int eh coal sector

Australian aluminium smelters are some of the most inefficient in the world.  They use around 50% more energy than a lot of the new plant.  Same goes for the steel making industry.  Without a lot of investment they can't hope to compete.  The domestic market is so small as to make it hard to build up the appropriate cost competitive scale.

We'd be better served using some of the natural gas we have to produce a lot of the chemicals required as feedstock for a lot of the basic of modern day life.  The US is already seeing a large growth in these kind of industries with teh cheap shale oil there.  At least investing in this would use a natural advantage rather than trying to prop up industries that will keep their hands out till we're bankrupted.

If only a political party could come up with a way to encourage an Australian Mittelstand they would get my vote!


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> Problem is the private sector hasn't invested to maintain their competitiveness in a lot of the resource industries.  There nearly as bad as the US congress on trying to sort out infrastruture issues - just see how long it takes them to agree to new port infrastructure int eh coal sector
> 
> Australian aluminium smelters are some of the most inefficient in the world.  They use around 50% more energy than a lot of the new plant.  Same goes for the steel making industry.  Without a lot of investment they can't hope to compete.  The domestic market is so small as to make it hard to build up the appropriate cost competitive scale.
> 
> We'd be better served using some of the natural gas we have to produce a lot of the chemicals required as feedstock for a lot of the basic of modern day life.  The US is already seeing a large growth in these kind of industries with teh cheap shale oil there.  At least investing in this would use a natural advantage rather than trying to prop up industries that will keep their hands out till we're bankrupted.
> 
> If only a political party could come up with a way to encourage an Australian Mittelstand they would get my vote!




Companies only invest in what has a commercial return, they have no social responsibility.
The Government has a social responsibility to impose financially viable costs on the company to further the countries prospects.
The domestic market doesn't matter if the process cost is low and the raw material export cost is increased.
This would reduce the enticement for a company to sell ore to a parent company overseas and process there.


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> Australian aluminium smelters are some of the most inefficient in the world.  They use around 50% more energy than a lot of the new plant.  Same goes for the steel making industry.  Without a lot of investment they can't hope to compete.  The domestic market is so small as to make it hard to build up the appropriate cost competitive scale.




Well then up the cost on the tonnage royalties on feed stock untill it makes sense to value add here.
Also increase the export cost on feedstock( buaxite)
Lets not forget most of these companies are overseas owned.
Why the hell would you put in place a tax on profits, when overseas mining companies are selling to parent companies.
Why wouldn't you work out the recovery cost compared to competing countries and tax accordingly.
Then allow them a discount if they are prepared to value add in Australia.


----------



## sydboy007

sptrawler said:


> Companies only invest in what has a commercial return, they have no social responsibility.
> The Government has a social responsibility to impose financially viable costs on the company to further the countries prospects.
> The domestic market doesn't matter if the process cost is low and the raw material export cost is increased.
> This would reduce the enticement for a company to sell ore to a parent company overseas and process there.




So your proposing the Govt pick winners?

I thought the person willing to pay the highest price gets to buy?  As a shareholder in BHP or RIO would you be OK forced to sell your product to a local company at a discount?  That kind of system just leads to inefficiency.

Not exactly sure what you mean by _if the process cost is low and the raw material export cost is increased_

Sounds not too free market to me.

After $30+ billion in handouts to the car industry they still can't compete.  I'd argue that money would have been better spent on funding biomedical research, agricultural crop improvements (along the lines of BT cotton or wheat that can grow in saline conditions) building infrastructure to improve economic growth, funding the CSIRO and other institutions doing basic scientific research.  Heck, investing it so that the brilliant ideas generated here can also be commericalised here, rather than sold off cheaply to overseas companies.

The great things with IP is you don't need to make it.  Come up with a new drug, new drought resistant form or wheat / soy and you then team up with a global company that has the marketing and production resources to sell it around the world.  License the IP to them and rack in the royalty cheques for years to come.  The CSIRO is going to get half a billion in royalties for their patents for wireless communications.  

I don't see anyone offering those kind of solutions for the next engine our of economic prosperity.


----------



## sydboy007

sptrawler said:


> Well then up the cost on the tonnage royalties untill it makes sense to value add here.
> Lets not forget most of these companies are overseas owned.
> Why the hell would you put in place a tax on profits, when overseas mining companies are selling to parent companies.
> Why wouldn't you work out the recovery cost compared to competing countries and tax accordingly.
> Then allow them a discount if they are prepared to value add in Australia.




Please explain how that would work?

If you surmise the cost of bauxite is roughly the same globally, and other countries can smelt aluminium cheaper than in Australia because they don't require as much electricity to do it, then why prob up an inefficient industry.

basically you're asking the Govt to give up royalties to prop up the industry, which means other taxes have to be higher to make up the revenue shortfall, because I question if the increase in production would generate enough profit to make up for loss of royalties.  Sounds very like how the Chinese run their economy.


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> So your proposing the Govt pick winners?
> 
> I thought the person willing to pay the highest price gets to buy?  As a shareholder in BHP or RIO would you be OK forced to sell your product to a local company at a discount?  That kind of system just leads to inefficiency.
> 
> Not exactly sure what you mean by _if the process cost is low and the raw material export cost is increased_
> 
> Sounds not too free market to me.
> 
> After $30+ billion in handouts to the car industry they still can't compete.  I'd argue that money would have been better spent on funding biomedical research, agricultural crop improvements (along the lines of BT cotton or wheat that can grow in saline conditions) building infrastructure to improve economic growth, funding the CSIRO and other institutions doing basic scientific research.  Heck, investing it so that the brilliant ideas generated here can also be commericalised here, rather than sold off cheaply to overseas companies.
> 
> The great things with IP is you don't need to make it.  Come up with a new drug, new drought resistant form or wheat / soy and you then team up with a global company that has the marketing and production resources to sell it around the world.  License the IP to them and rack in the royalty cheques for years to come.  The CSIRO is going to get half a billion in royalties for their patents for wireless communications.
> 
> I don't see anyone offering those kind of solutions for the next engine our of economic prosperity.




Can you tell me how much money we've made out of cochlear?


----------



## sydboy007

sptrawler said:


> Can you tell me how much money we've made out of cochlear?




In what way?

Share investors have done OK.  The applied science and continual product improements are done mainly in Australia.  The knowledge is generated here.

Investors in CSL have done pretty well too.  I remember not long after moving to Sydney they did the IPO for $2 a share.  I thought who wants to invest in a crappy worn out Govt business.  Sigh

My point is we need to stop thinking like 19th century mercantalists and realise that knowledge is power and wealth.

Think Google.  They have an algorithm that ranks search results in a way that most people find gives them the information they want.  They make billions a year, yet have no physical product.

It is these knowledge based industries that Australia should be focused on and investing in.  Let other countries waste their subsidies funding companies that can't compete on their own.  They'll be the poorer for it as they wont be able to invest in the knowledge industries.

We need to have companies in hgih valued exports so we don't have to race to the bottom to compete against vietnam or india in wages.  I look to Germany as a country to emulate, or the Swiss with their large biotech industries.  High paying jobs in companies that are world leaders.  No ones buys from them because they're cheap , they buy because of the quality and reliability of their products.


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> Please explain how that would work?
> 
> If you surmise the cost of bauxite is roughly the same globally, and other countries can smelt aluminium cheaper than in Australia because they don't require as much electricity to do it, then why prob up an inefficient industry.
> 
> basically you're asking the Govt to give up royalties to prop up the industry, which means other taxes have to be higher to make up the revenue shortfall, because I question if the increase in production would generate enough profit to make up for loss of royalties.  Sounds very like how the Chinese run their economy.




Don't knock the Chinese, I've been at the universities, the libaries and computers are chock full of Asians, the bars are full of Aussies.
This is the problem that has beset us since I was a kid in the 70's on the Kwinana strip, we asked "why are we not value adding".
Now 40 years later I'm having to explain myself to you. 
Obviously it's not going to happen and we will end up at the lowest common denominator.


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> In what way?
> 
> Share investors have done OK.  The applied science and continual product improements are done mainly in Australia.  The knowledge is generated here.
> 
> Investors in CSL have done pretty well too.  I remember not long after moving to Sydney they did the IPO for $2 a share.  I thought who wants to invest in a crappy worn out Govt business.  Sigh
> 
> My point is we need to stop thinking like 19th century mercantalists and realise that knowledge is power and wealth.
> 
> Think Google.  They have an algorithm that ranks search results in a way that most people find gives them the information they want.  They make billions a year, yet have no physical product.
> 
> It is these knowledge based industries that Australia should be focused on and investing in.  Let other countries waste their subsidies funding companies that can't compete on their own.  They'll be the poorer for it as they wont be able to invest in the knowledge industries.
> 
> We need to have companies in hgih valued exports so we don't have to race to the bottom to compete against vietnam or india in wages.  I look to Germany as a country to emulate, or the Swiss with their large biotech industries.  High paying jobs in companies that are world leaders.  No ones buys from them because they're cheap , they buy because of the quality and reliability of their products.




How much does cochlear, as a spin off from CSIRO give Australia as royalties or intelectual rights?

This is where Labors platform comes from and probably your job as it relates to IT, this is your future.
How much does Australia gain from this cutting edge technology, which will be a beacon for our future?

By the way do yu know someone who goes by the name of starcraft master?


----------



## sydboy007

sptrawler said:


> How much does cochlear, as a spin off from CSIRO give Australia as royalties or intelectual rights?
> 
> This is where Labors platform comes from and probably your job as it relates to IT, this is your future.
> How much does Australia gain from this cutting edge technology, which will be a beacon for our future?




Your focusing on the wrong value add.

We can make so much more money from creating IP than we'll ever make turning iron into steel or bauxite into aluminium.

I would agree turning some of our natural gas into feedstock for plastics or fertiliser could be worthwhile since the value can be up to 20 times that of the raw materials.


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> Your focusing on the wrong value add.
> 
> We can make so much more money from creating IP than we'll ever make turning iron into steel or bauxite into aluminium.
> 
> I would agree turning some of our natural gas into feedstock for plastics or fertiliser could be worthwhile since the value can be up to 20 times that of the raw materials.




Mate your losing it, are you a call centre?


----------



## sydboy007

sptrawler said:


> Mate your losing it, are you a call centre?




Have a chat to Tom Albanese about what a wonderful business Alcoa is.

The Chinese have so much over capacity in aluminium that the price will never get much above break even.

Australia's problem is we don't foster those with great ideas and capture more of the value of the IP we produce.

i think you've been talking to your mate Barnaby too much.  Better get away from the agrarian socialists and more to the free marketers


----------



## bunyip

How about that fruitcake who made a fake press release that ANZ had withdrawn funding from Whitehaven Coal because of environmental concerns!
The share price took a dive, some investors took a bath, then the share price recovered when the press release was revealed as fake.
No doubt investors who got burnt are less than impressed by this stupid greenie who's now facing criminal charges. Hopefully they’ll make an example of him by throwing him in the slammer for a few years. 
Any responsible politician would condemn this type of action. Not so Christine Milne, who applauds him for taking a stand against the coal industry. The Greens would gladly shut down this multi-billion dollar industry if they could. 
This is the same party that Gillard and her cronies are in bed with.
Gillard really knows how to choose her friends. She’d befriend people like Adof Hitler and Robert Mugabe if she thought they could help to keep her in power.


----------



## bigdog

BEST BARTENDER JOKE EVER

An Ex-Lawyer, a Pathological Liar, a Fraudster, an Atheist and a Communist walk into a BAR. 

Bartender asks....   

"What'll it be, Ms. Gillard?"


----------



## pixel

this must be worth more than 1023 words


----------



## Aussiejeff

pixel said:


> this must be worth more than 1023 words
> 
> View attachment 50370




Another Classic Catch there, pixel.....

On Juliar's score sheet, it would no doubt read "Retired _HURT_".


----------



## DB008

sydboy007 said:


> Have a chat to Tom Albanese about what a wonderful business Alcoa is.




You can add Marius Kloppers (BHP CEO) to RIO's CEO as a muppet too.

They (BHP + RIO) like to purchase assets at the top of a cycle and offload them near rock bottom prices.



Anyways, why hasn't the new media laws been spoken about? Or have they, and I have missed the boat?



> Nicola Roxon's discrimination laws draw flak from media
> 
> THE nation's media giants have slammed Labor's plans to make it unlawful to offend or insult people under the proposed overhaul of discrimination law, warning it could encourage audiences to be unnecessarily thin-skinned and outlets to restrict contentious or complex material.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/media/nicola-roxons-discrimination-laws-draw-flak-from-media/story-e6frg996-1226549911052




What happens when the next 'offensive' cartoon is published and Muslims go on another rampage through Sydney? Will there be proper reporting or a watered down version not to risk offending anyone?


----------



## sydboy007

DB008 said:


> You can add Marius Kloppers (BHP CEO) to RIO's CEO as a muppet too.
> 
> They (BHP + RIO) like to purchase assets at the top of a cycle and offload them near rock bottom prices.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, why hasn't the new media laws been spoken about? Or have they, and I have missed the boat?
> 
> 
> 
> What happens when the next 'offensive' cartoon is published and Muslims go on another rampage through Sydney? Will there be proper reporting or a watered down version not to risk offending anyone?




Tony Abbott has delivered a commitment to remove key elements of Section 18C of the Race Discrimination Act (RDA).

To expand:

4””Racial vilification

A person must not, by a public act, incite hatred towards, serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of, a person or group of persons on the ground of their race by””

(a) threatening physical harm to the person, or members of the group, or to property of the person or members of the group; or

(b) inciting others to threaten physical harm to the person, or members of the group, or to property of the person or members of the group.

So if he gets this legislation through, then Islamic extremists will be able to say whatever they like. Holocaust deniers will be able to say what they like.

Do we want An Australian society that says this is OK?? Death to infidels. Death to sub human Jews.


----------



## Calliope

sydboy007 said:


> So if he gets this legislation through, then Islamic extremists will be able to say whatever they like. Holocaust deniers will be able to say what they like.
> 
> Do we want An Australian society that says this is OK?? Death to infidels. Death to sub human Jews.




The Racial Vilification Act does not prevent this now. Jihadists still say what they like now.



> Australia's domestic spy agency ASIO says violent jihadist ideology still poses the greatest threat to Australia.




This exposure of you very own Lee Rhiannon's hatred of the Jews did not stop her getting elected as a Senator or shut her racist mouth.



> NSW Greens are threatening to use expensive defamation litigation to silence the many critics of their anti-Semitic, Israel-hating boycott of Jewish commerce policy, dud Greens candidate Jamie Parker has excoriated “these Jews” who dared take him on and their Senator-Elect Lee Rhiannon says they’ve just begun to push their anti-Israel fanaticism and hopes to team up with the “Arab community” to smite the Jewish state ever more. The Uglies have put on their game-face.




http://www.vexnews.com/tag/lee-rhiannon/


----------



## pixel

sydboy007 said:


> Tony Abbott has delivered a commitment to remove key elements of Section 18C of the Race Discrimination Act (RDA).
> 
> To expand:
> 
> 4””Racial vilification
> 
> A person must not, by a public act, incite hatred towards, serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of, a person or group of persons on the ground of their race by””
> 
> (a) threatening physical harm to the person, or members of the group, or to property of the person or members of the group; or
> 
> (b) inciting others to threaten physical harm to the person, or members of the group, or to property of the person or members of the group.
> 
> So if he gets this legislation through, then Islamic extremists will be able to say whatever they like. Holocaust deniers will be able to say what they like.
> 
> Do we want An Australian society that says this is OK?? Death to infidels. Death to sub human Jews.




Is that what TA wants to delete from section 18C? Or does he want to insert 4(a) and (b) into the Act?

If the former: How many radical muslim leaders have been brought to justice over this? 
So it's got to be the latter - and then I can't see your objection because the idiots could finally be brought to account.
I still don't like that man, would much prefer MT; but if I have no other choice, I'll much rather have 4(a) and (b) inserted *and rigorously enforced* than see those morons get away with intimidation and murder. (As long as I'm allowed to continue pointing at the idiocy of their pretense of "religious dominance". I'm arguing to eradicate stupidity by education, not by killing all morons.)


----------



## Calliope

In a letter to all Australian Julia (i.e. John McTernan) said she had spent Christmas/New Year reflecting and also planning her strategy to defeat the forces of darkness.

She (they) decided the best method of attack was to bamboozle the opposition with a bunch of clichÃ©s;



> But however you remember it, there is no going back there. You can't change it or relive it.  But you can plan for and shape the future.
> 
> What's true for individuals, is true for our nation and our world.
> 
> We will never again live in a world without the fear of terrorism.
> 
> We'll never go back to a time before the internet.
> 
> We'll never see the global economy as it was before greed and poor regulation created the global financial crisis.
> 
> As a result, we won't see our nation relive days of zero savings and easy money.
> 
> As Asia rises, we won't go back to the days of an unchallenged and all-powerful America with Europe as a zone of sophistication and economic strength.
> 
> We won't go back to the days before the gender revolution, when women's role was confined within the boundaries set by men.
> 
> We'll never again see a world without global warming.
> 
> Our time is this time, in a modern world rapidly changing, where our future is never assured.



Read more,
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...age-to-australia/story-fncynkc6-1226552607981


----------



## drsmith

Whatever Kev did, Julia does better.


----------



## Calliope

If this little exchange is an indicator of what Roxon's anti-Discrimination Bill has in store for us then then I think political cartoonists will have very slim pickings.



> Journalist: Is it appropriate for anyone to comment on the Prime Minister's clothing, including someone like Germaine Greer?
> 
> Roxon: No, it absolutely is not.


----------



## Calliope

The Gillard Government pursues it's war against freedom of speech!



> Federal Government condemns LNP MP for Bowman Andrew Laming after he weighs into race tensions on Twitter with controversial tweet



The cause;



> RACE TENSIONS: Racial violence erupted in Logan again last night, as police struggled to separate feuding groups for the third night, and Logan Mayor Pam Parker called for a "zero tolerance" approach from the multicultural community.



Laming tweeted;



> Mobs tearing up Logan. Did any of them do a day's work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?"



A perfectly reasonable statement, I would say,...but;


> Federal Trade Minister Craig Emerson told the ABC Mr Laming's quotes were disgraceful and callous, and inflaming a tense situation for political gain was appalling



.
It just reinforces my view that Emerson is an over-educated idiot.
Read more,
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...troversial-tweet/story-fndo45r1-1226553935301


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> The Gillard Government pursues it's war against freedom of speech!
> The cause;
> Laming tweeted;
> A perfectly reasonable statement, I would say,...but;
> It just reinforces my view that Emerson is an over-educated idiot.
> Read more,
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...troversial-tweet/story-fndo45r1-1226553935301




Emmerson doesnt seem educated he just seems like a big mummy's boy, a real jerk.

I thought the tweet was on the money and a lot less offensive than the goons who took time off from shooting up to trash their neighborhood.


----------



## MrBurns




----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Emmerson doesnt seem educated he just seems like a big mummy's boy, a real jerk.




But he's a good singer.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> View attachment 50435
> View attachment 50436




*Our Biggest Enemy Is Freedom of Speech*


----------



## drsmith

I note that Labor is making noise about an increase in the dole.

How will that be paid for ?

Having abandoned the 2012/13 surplus, Labor's election spendfest has begun.


----------



## bellenuit

_Mobs tearing up Logan. Did any of them do a day's work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?_

The comment may be an accurate reflection of what is going on, but it was a stupid comment to make IMO. What did he expect that tweet to achieve?  He is an MP and MPs are expected to help solve problems, not play the spectator throwing insults, no matter how deserved they may be. Tweets like that are what I expect from the general public following such an event. MPs get paid handsomely to be a bit more constructive.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> Emmerson doesnt seem educated he just seems like a big mummy's boy, a real jerk.
> 
> I thought the tweet was on the money and a lot less offensive than the goons who took time off from shooting up to trash their neighborhood.




The tweet *was* on the money and would have been politically correct if the rioting thugs had been white.


----------



## dutchie

bellenuit said:


> _Mobs tearing up Logan. Did any of them do a day's work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?_
> 
> The comment may be an accurate reflection of what is going on, but it was a stupid comment to make IMO. What did he expect that tweet to achieve?  He is an MP and MPs are expected to help solve problems, not play the spectator throwing insults, no matter how deserved they may be. Tweets like that are what I expect from the general public following such an event. MPs get paid handsomely to be a bit more constructive.




Politicians must be slow learners because they keep on making the same mistake over and over. Poor Australia.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Laming tweeted;
> 
> 
> 
> Mobs tearing up Logan. Did any of them do a day's work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A perfectly reasonable statement, I would say,...
Click to expand...


Yes, of course you would.  It was, however, politically stupid, branding various racial/cultural groups who no doubt have a vote.

  Emerson just took advantage of an opportunity for a free kick.
.



bellenuit said:


> _Mobs tearing up Logan. Did any of them do a day's work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?_
> 
> The comment may be an accurate reflection of what is going on, but it was a stupid comment to make IMO. What did he expect that tweet to achieve?  He is an MP and MPs are expected to help solve problems, not play the spectator throwing insults, no matter how deserved they may be. Tweets like that are what I expect from the general public following such an event. MPs get paid handsomely to be a bit more constructive.



+1.


----------



## MrBurns

I think we all know it was a stupid thing for a politician to say publicly but that doesn't mean we cant agree with what was said.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Yes, of course you would.  It was, however, politically stupid, branding various racial/cultural groups who no doubt have a vote.
> 
> Emerson just took advantage of an opportunity for a free kick.




Now who's taking the free kick? If it had been two rival white gangs rioting there wouldn't have been a peep out of anyone. While the tweet may have been politically unwise, Laming has every right to exercise his freedom of speech. Who did it harm?

This display of feigned indignation by special interest groups over such a trivial matter gives us a foretaste of what to expect when Roxon's anti-Discrimination Bill gets up.

I make no excuse for being an advocate of freedom of speech.


----------



## DocK

I thought all of the coalition MPs had been banned from using social media?  I'm sure I read that on one of the political threads on ASF a week or so ago?

This silly tweet would provide excellent evidence of why such a ban is a very good idea.


----------



## Calliope

DocK said:


> I thought all of the coalition MPs had been banned from using social media?  I'm sure I read that on one of the political threads on ASF a week or so ago?
> 
> This silly tweet would provide excellent evidence of why such a ban is a very good idea.




No ban on the freedom of speech is a good idea.


----------



## DocK

Calliope said:


> No ban on the freedom of speech is a good idea.




Found the article - it was posted by SomeDude on the Tony Abbot for PM thread: 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/liberals-slap-social-media-gag-on-mps-20121208-2b2eo.html


> LIBERAL Party candidates have been gagged ahead of next year's federal election, with Coalition backbench MPs under pressure to close their Twitter and other social media accounts.
> 
> Fairfax Media has learnt of a directive from the head office of the federal Liberal Party in an opposition bid to limit ''stuff-ups and scandals''. The directive to preselected candidates ''strongly advises'' against using Twitter and that tweeting on behalf of the Liberal Party is ''not encouraged''.




So in this particular instance, from a PR point of view, it certainly would have been a good idea!


----------



## Calliope

DocK said:


> So in this particular instance, from a PR point of view, it certainly would have been a good idea!




No "PR point of view" or political expediency or "good idea" justifies a ban on freedom of speech.
The horse has bolted and the social media cannot be reined in. The lNP have to learn how to take advantage of it as Gillard has done.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> View attachment 50435
> View attachment 50436




You are pathetic Burns, *comparing Julia Gillard to Adolf Hitler*. Shame on you.



> *Hitler's supremacist and racially motivated policies resulted in the deaths of an estimated 50 million people *during World War II, including 6 million Jews and 5 million "non-Aryans" whose systematic extermination was ordered by him and his close subordinates. - Wikipedia



.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Burnsie, you are very, very naughty and matron has been tasked to spank your bottie.

Seriously though folks, if I were in charge of Lib campaigning I'd be pushing the good polls for Julia Gillard, telling the punters she is going to be re-elected, and sit back and watch the annihilation of the present ALP/Green coalition.

It is going to be much, much closer in the polls coming up to the election.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> You are pathetic Burns, *comparing Julia Gillard to Adolf Hitler*. Shame on you.
> 
> .




I agree the comparison isnt really fair, Gillard has only killed a few with the pink batts disaster, she can improve on that but at present she's content with spending every cent we havent got.


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Burnsie, you are very, very naughty and matron has been tasked to spank your bottie.
> 
> gg




I'm all a quiver


----------



## Macquack

Macquack said:


> You are pathetic Burns, *comparing Julia Gillard to Adolf Hitler*. Shame on you.




I had more colourful language penned, but ASF etiquette won out.


----------



## Calliope

Macquack said:


> You are pathetic Burns, *comparing Julia Gillard to Adolf Hitler*. Shame on you.












*Sieg heil mein fÃ¼hrer*


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I really think we are finished with these analogies.

We have hit Godwins Law.

The bottom.

Unfair and objectionable comparisons of Julia Gillard to Hitler are not in my repertoire, and should cease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

So can we stop it, please.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I really think we are finished with these analogies.
> 
> We have hit Godwins Law.
> 
> The bottom.
> 
> Unfair and objectionable comparisons of Julia Gillard to Hitler are not in my repertoire, and should cease.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
> 
> So can we stop it, please.
> 
> gg




Excellent gg and as soon as it becomes unfair we promise to stop


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I agree the comparison isnt really fair, Gillard has only killed a few with the pink batts disaster, she can improve on that but at present she's content with spending every cent we havent got.



I'll refrain from directly attributing anyone to deaths, but don't forget the impact of Labor's policies on boat arrivals, inparticular under Julia Gillard.

There's a comparison in that both are (were in the case of Hitler) driven by power very much above all else. Hitler was obviously far worse, but he ruled exclusively over a dictatorship so Julia Gillard could never descend to that level, even if she is as insane (which I don't think she is).

The images you posted together were a little naughty, but the comparison in body language is interesting.

Enjoy the spanking.


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I
> 
> Unfair and objectionable comparisons of Julia Gillard to Hitler are not in my repertoire, and should cease.
> 
> gg




I must agree but I spent ages trying to find a suitable picture of Pol Pot or Idi Amin without success so Hitler had to do.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> I'll refrain from directly attributing anyone to deaths, but don't forget the impact of Labor's policies on boat arrivals, inparticular under Julia Gillard.
> 
> There's a comparison in that both are (were in the case of Hitler) driven by power very much above all else. Hitler was obviously far worse, but he ruled exclusively over a dictatorship so Julia Gillard could never descend to that level, even if she is as insane (which I don't think she is).
> 
> The images you posted together were a little naughty, but the comparison in body language is interesting.
> 
> Enjoy the spanking.




I believe many do blame the Govt for those deaths the way the whole initiative was mishandled, but my initial post was of course tongue in cheek, lost on those with no sense of humour, like the Nazis were I imagine.


----------



## drsmith

Garpal Gumnut said:


> We have hit Godwins Law.
> 
> The bottom.



You disappoint me.

I expected to see something about discipline at the nunnery.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjemxb_s1e3-the-black-adder-the-archbishop_creation


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

drsmith said:


> You disappoint me.
> 
> I expected to see something about discipline at the nunnery.
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjemxb_s1e3-the-black-adder-the-archbishop_creation




lol

Not too far from the truth.

gg


----------



## Calliope

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unfair and objectionable comparisons of Julia Gillard to Hitler are not in my repertoire, and should cease.




Neither Burnsie nor I made any comparisons between the two leaders. You and Macquack, very astutely I must say, inferred that the juxtaposition of the two pictures and the similar attitudes of the two leaders attributed totalitarian qualities to the fair Julia, which  I am sure she would never stoop to.

I would put it down as a gentle wake-up call to be vigilant.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Now who's taking the free kick? If it had been two rival white gangs rioting there wouldn't have been a peep out of anyone.



No?  What about the white bikie gangs killing one another.  The media was all over that, and every person with any media presence at all, very much including politicians, had something to say about it.

I don't see that the comparison with any white groups is even relevant.  The unrest is happening.  It's nasty and requires police presence.  That makes it newsworthy.  So for any politician to make such a dumb remark is just less than constructive, stupid really.



> While the tweet may have been politically unwise, Laming has every right to exercise his freedom of speech. Who did it harm?



It would have harmed the Coalition's chances of winning the election, especially in view of Mr Laming's being the Parliamentary Secretary for  Indigenous Health.

The matter of free speech is one about which we should all be concerned.  It is, however, entirely separate from whether or not the behaviour of any politician will adversely affect his party's chances of election.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Neither Burnsie nor I made any comparisons between the two leaders. You and Macquack, very astutely I must say, inferred that the juxtaposition of the two pictures and the similar attitudes of the two leaders attributed totalitarian qualities to the fair Julia, which  I am sure she would never stoop to.
> 
> I would put it down as a gentle wake-up call to be vigilant.




I must say I got suspicious when Brash/Allans went into liquidation someone bought up all the piano wire.
This was traced to a slush fund at Slater and Gordon , Gillard cant remember and the file is missing but I have my suspicions.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> No?  What about the white bikie gangs killing one another.  The media was all over that, and every person with any media presence at all, very much including politicians, had something to say about it.[




I don't remember you or anyone else trying to make political capital out of it.



> I don't see that the comparison with any white groups is even relevant.  The unrest is happening.  It's nasty and requires police presence.  That makes it newsworthy.  So for any politician to make such a dumb remark is just less than constructive, stupid really.




 I see. So speaking the truth is dumb and stupid.



> It would have harmed the Coalition's chances of winning the election, especially in view of Mr Laming's being the Parliamentary Secretary for  Indigenous Health.




Nonsense.



> The matter of free speech is one about which we should all be concerned.  It is, however, entirely separate from whether or not the behaviour of any politician will adversely affect his party's chances of election.




So freedom of speech is good, but only when it is politically correct? Ms Roxon would agree with you on that.
You seem to be upset over what Laming said because of political repercussions, but I haven't a clue as to  what you personally found objectionable in what he said.


----------



## DB008

Gillard Gov bringing in stupid 'insult and cutting the freedom of speech' laws, UK going the other way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21020737


----------



## DB008

At least we know that 10% of the carbon tax collected will be going to good use through the UN...*not*....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/8180500/Report-slams-Clarks-UN-programme


----------



## Logique

> Federal Government condemns LNP MP for Bowman Andrew Laming
> Laming tweeted;
> "Mobs tearing up Logan. Did any of them do a day's work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?"



Laming is rightly condemned. Inappropriate and undisciplined comments from any MP.



> Federal Trade Minister Craig Emerson told the ABC Mr Laming's quotes were disgraceful and callous, and inflaming a tense situation for political gain was appalling.  http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nat...-1226553935301



However it isn't disgraceful, callous or apalling at all to tell people who've just lost their homes in a bushfire that their problems are due to man-made global warming. No political gain there. No pious righteousness from Emerson on this.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> However it isn't disgraceful, callous or apalling at all to tell people who've just lost their homes in a bushfire that their problems are due to man-made global warming. No political gain there. No pious righteousness from Emerson on this.




Every time Emerson opens his mouth it is for "political gain."

I don't remember this hypocrite condemning the actions of a guy from Gillard's office who just a year ago incited a racial riot at the aboriginal tent embassy in Canberra. Apparently it was for "political gain" when lies were spread with the intention of inciting mob violence against Tony Abbott.



> Laming is rightly condemned. Inappropriate and undisciplined comments from any MP




Maybe...but not his right to say it.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Every time Emerson opens his mouth it is for "political gain."
> .




I see Emerson as a complete fool of a man and he holds a front bench seat in this Govt, it's infuriating that we have to pay for idiots like this to do bugger all, we deserve so much better.


----------



## Ijustnewit

I received some information I was unaware of the other day about the UN and Agenda 21. There are to many links to put on here . For those interested Google Agenda 21 and then try other searches such as Gillard Agenda 21 , Carbon Tax Agenda 21 . Very interesting reading to be had . Explains what the UN and Gillard / Greens and the likes are really up to.


----------



## noco

DB008 said:


> At least we know that 10% of the carbon tax collected will be going to good use through the UN...*not*....
> 
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/8180500/Report-slams-Clarks-UN-programme




Mate, we need da money here. Bugger the UN.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Mate, we need da money here. Bugger the UN.



Extra feathering of the UN nest is more important than that.


----------



## MrBurns

Here we go again, she must have been out of the news for more than 5 minutes and hit the panic button.

Now the *Prime Minister*........has involved herself in a local issue in Brisbane, isnt she the thoughtful one 



> Gillard flags crackdown on gun violence
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has signalled possible Federal Government action to crack down on gun violence in western Sydney and unrest in Logan, south of Brisbane




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-16/gillard-on-violence/4467642


----------



## MrBurns

Two in one day helped along by the ALP errr ABC..is there a difference ?



> Websites sign on to Gillard's bullying protocol
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has struck an agreement with several major websites to help deal with the problem of online bullying, although Twitter is yet to sign up.
> 
> The agreement with Facebook, Microsoft, Yahoo! and Google - which owns YouTube - sets out guidelines for what is acceptable online behaviour and introduces protocols for how to deal with problems




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-16/major-websites-sign-on-to-gillard27s-bullying-protocol/4467240


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Here we go again, she must have been out of the news for more than 5 minutes and hit the panic button.
> 
> Now the *Prime Minister*........has involved herself in a local issue in Brisbane, isnt she the thoughtful one
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-16/gillard-on-violence/4467642



That looks like it quickly deflated. This comment from Michael Smith's blog;



> It kinda flies in the face of the latest newspoll results regarding Gillard, when out of 65 comments, there is not one in favor of our PM's latest announcement and the attitude towards her is really bad, go figure?
> 
> ://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa...rban-violence/comments-fn59niix-1226555026023




http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2012/11/dear-prime-minister-you-are-a-liar.html#comments


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Here we go again, she must have been out of the news for more than 5 minutes and hit the panic button.
> 
> Now the *Prime Minister*........has involved herself in a local issue in Brisbane, isnt she the thoughtful one
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-16/gillard-on-violence/4467642




That is my sentiments too Mr. Burns. 

An election is in the air.


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> That is my sentiments too Mr. Burns.
> 
> An election is in the air.




Think you might be right, ramp it up and go while the going's good, she is certainly seeking publicity like I've never seen before.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> Think you might be right, ramp it up and go while the going's good, she is certainly seeking publicity like I've never seen before.




Getting involved in a family fued, does smack a bit of attention seeking. 
Sounds like Newman has sorted it out by relocating one of the families.
I suppose that saved Julia sending in the SAS. LOL


----------



## sails

Ijustnewit said:


> I received some information I was unaware of the other day about the UN and Agenda 21. There are to many links to put on here . For those interested Google Agenda 21 and then try other searches such as Gillard Agenda 21 , Carbon Tax Agenda 21 . Very interesting reading to be had . Explains what the UN and Gillard / Greens and the likes are really up to.




Very worrying...


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Very worrying...




IMO There is nothing wrong with working towards a sustainable world, as long as we are on the same page.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Getting involved in a family fued, does smack a bit of attention seeking.
> Sounds like Newman has sorted it out by relocating one of the families.
> I suppose that saved Julia sending in the SAS. LOL




It is a wonder she was not in Brissy acting as referee for the waring parties just to get a photo shoot.

She is sticking long nose in where ever she can.

Oh for God sakes stop pinkin' on poor Julia. We all thinks she is lubly and so does Tim.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> That looks like it quickly deflated. This comment from Michael Smith's blog;



Page was unavailable when I tried the link.
Campbell Newman has pretty firmly put Ms Gillard back in her box on the local aboriginal v Pacific Islander issue.
Effectively told her to butt out.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Page was unavailable when I tried the link.
> Campbell Newman has pretty firmly put Ms Gillard back in her box on the local aboriginal v Pacific Islander issue.
> Effectively told her to butt out.




Yes Julia, it is a state problem and has nothing to do with Miss Gillard.

She is just after publicity. LOOK AT ME, LOOK WHAT I DOING FOR THE SAKE OF THE COMMUMITY.

The majority of people are starting to read her like a book. She follows the same old boring pattern. It is all about vote catching.

There is an early election on the horizon. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...uburban-violence/story-fn59niix-1226555026023


----------



## Ijustnewit

Gillard wants Smart Meters ..

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/15326252/pm-to-push-smart-meters/


Now you have read the above listen to this !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjiPaeKH7YA


----------



## noco

Ijustnewit said:


> Gillard wants Smart Meters ..
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/15326252/pm-to-push-smart-meters/
> 
> 
> Now you have read the above listen to this !!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjiPaeKH7YA




What an eye opener that was. I have being saying for some time now the UN Secretary is a Greenie.

It all sounds fantastic when Gillard talks about "SMART METERS" and it will suck in the naive just using the word "SMART" but once again with this Prime Minister of ours she has a hidden agenda to control  our lives and the way we do things and she is doing it in a very stupendous way.


----------



## DB008

Ijustnewit said:


> Now you have read the above listen to this !!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjiPaeKH7YA





I sent that youtube video to my Dad (electrical engineer, process systems specialist/programmer) 

His one word reply - 'Bull$hit'

I'll go with his views.


----------



## Logique

Ijustnewit said:


> Gillard wants Smart Meters ..
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/15326252/pm-to-push-smart-meters/



Another reason to vote Labor out. These meters are only smart for the power retailers, enabling them to screw us for more $ in peak hours. Yes when it's 40 degrees outside and it comes to peak hour, let's all be smart and turn off the aircon, yeah right. 

Increased power bills should neatly eliminate any benefit from the proposed increase in dole.


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> Here we go again, she must have been out of the news for more than 5 minutes and hit the panic button.
> Now the *Prime Minister*........has involved herself in a local issue in Brisbane, isnt she the thoughtful one
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-16/gillard-on-violence/4467642




and again - is this one or 2 a day ???



> Gillard visits fire-torn Coonabarabran




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-17/gillard-to-visit-fire-torn-nsw/4468336

Could be readying for an early election, we'll see if the next poll encourages her.


----------



## Calliope

Our Prime Minister is the subject of serious criminal investigations. If justice is served we may see her in the dock before she can do too much further damage to our country.
Listen to the podcast;
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...olice-investigation-into-the-awu-scandal.html
and;
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...up-awu-inquiries/story-fng5kxvh-1226555453981


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> Our Prime Minister is the subject of serious criminal investigations. If justice is served we may see her in the dock before she can do too much further damage to our country.
> Listen to the podcast;
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...olice-investigation-into-the-awu-scandal.html
> and;
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...up-awu-inquiries/story-fng5kxvh-1226555453981




That's the best news I have heard in quite some time. I have been following the Michael Smith blog for a month or so now and it is just so frustrating to see the fairly compelling evidence he has produced (and his followers) of Gillard's corruption, but knowing at the same time it will go nowhere unless the police get involved. To read that the police are now talking to S&G is fantastic.


----------



## Logique

The PM is putting herself about. Watching the tennis, she's just sent a tweet to an incredulous Jim Courier. 'Is that for real?' he asked Bruce MacAvaney.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Our Prime Minister is the subject of serious criminal investigations. If justice is served we may see her in the dock before she can do too much further damage to our country.
> Listen to the podcast;
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...olice-investigation-into-the-awu-scandal.html
> and;
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...up-awu-inquiries/story-fng5kxvh-1226555453981




All the more reason Gillard will go for a March election before the $h/t hits the fan.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> The PM is putting herself about. Watching the tennis, she's just sent a tweet to an incredulous Jim Courier. 'Is that for real?' he asked Bruce MacAvaney.



She sure is.  She went touring the fire-stricken areas again yesterday.  Well into campaign mode.

Re the police stepping up enquiries in the S & G affair, the assumption seems to be here that the legal secretary's evidence will contribute to proof of criminality on Ms Gillard's part.  Does anyone think it's possible that evidence could alternatively contribute to finding her innocent?

I'm not expressing a view about either outcome, just wondering about the automatic assumption that the former will be the conclusion.  I haven't read Michael Smith's blog so may be unaware of various factors.


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> The PM is putting herself about. Watching the tennis, she's just sent a tweet to an incredulous Jim Courier. 'Is that for real?' he asked Bruce MacAvaney.




She can see the writing on the wall re the AWU, get ready for an election.


----------



## sptrawler

Maybe the picture isn't looking too good for the middle of the year.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/bu...534/australian-jobless-rate-hits-5-4-percent/

Leaving an election with the economy worsening, would be a bit silly.
Interest rates dropping, unemplyment rising, manufacturing failing. It will be hard for Labor to hold up anything as a shinning example of their term in office.
Other than to say, we broke it, give us the chance to fix it.


----------



## drsmith

Like Nazi Germany in the last months of WW2, the battle fronts are now closing in on the Gillard government from all sides.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Like Nazi Germany in the last months of WW2, the battle fronts are now closing in on the Gillard government from all sides.




I'll be glad when this is all over..............


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> I'll be glad when this is all over..............




Me too.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> I'm not expressing a view about either outcome, just wondering about the automatic assumption that the former will be the conclusion.  I haven't read Michael Smith's blog so may be unaware of various factors.




Unless a *completely watertight case *can be made out against her, Gillard will not be  charged. No serving PM has ever been charged with an indictable offence, and it would be a very daunting task for any police force to initiate this charge.  The final decision would rest with the State Government. The political fall out if the charge failed would be huge.

I have my doubts that justice will be served.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Unless a *completely watertight case *can be made out against her, Gillard will not be  charged. No serving PM has ever been charged with an indictable offence, and it would be a very daunting task for any police force to initiate this charge.  The final decision would rest with the State Government. The political fall out if the charge failed would be huge.
> 
> I have my doubts that justice will be served.



I think in any case that Labor would move on her first before it came even close to any charges being laid against her.

What will be interesting in the shorter term will be if anyone else gets charged. A panicked rat might just squeel.

I too have doubts, but we can still hope.


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> Unless a *completely watertight case *can be made out against her, Gillard will not be  charged. No serving PM has ever been charged with an indictable offence, and it would be a very daunting task for any police force to initiate this charge.  The final decision would rest with the State Government. The political fall out if the charge failed would be huge.
> 
> I have my doubts that justice will be served.





Unfortunately, I think you may be right. Although the evidence presented in the Michael Smith blog would suggest that she has acted unlawfully, it doesn't appear to be that serious an issue. It would seem that all that can be proven (if correct) is that she signed as witness to Blewitt's signature granting specific power of attorney to Wilson to purchase property on Blewitt's behalf, when in fact she was not a witness.  Who is the aggrieved party? The WA state government? Hardly something they would feel worthy of pursuing 17+ years later considering the enormous political implications attached to it. 

I think the police would have to prove that Gillard was actually party to the conspiracy to milk the union funds and used the Melbourne property to launder the ill-gotten funds. The MS blog hasn't found anything that could prove that was the case. It would require Wilson to rat on Gillard, but why would he do that when for his own protection it is best to have his partner in crime as prime minister of the country.

My only hope is that the police investigation can dig up a lot more than MS has.


----------



## drsmith

I'd like to see Craig Thomson charged first.


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> Unfortunately, I think you may be right. Although the evidence presented in the Michael Smith blog would suggest that she has acted unlawfully, it doesn't appear to be that serious an issue.



Quite.  So depending on the outcome, of course, it's possible that the Coalition will have laid themselves open to accusations of muck raking to no effect.  
Gillard is not stupid.  I doubt she would have done anything which could come back to bite her in any significant way.

I just fear another issue like the carbon tax which the electorate doesn't regard as especially important, but on which the Libs are placing massive importance.

No one has commented on the perception, displayed here earlier today, that the police interest in interviewing the S & G secretary will necessarily pull any noose more tightly around Ms Gillard's neck.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> I think in any case that Labor would move on her first before it came even close to any charges being laid against her.
> 
> What will be interesting in the shorter term will be if anyone else gets charged. A panicked rat might just squeel.
> 
> I too have doubts, but we can still hope.




I believe Miss Gillard is cunning enough to cover her tracks like the two missing files. 

I would say find those files and there might be some success in nailing her.


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> No one has commented on the perception, displayed here earlier today, that the police interest in interviewing the S & G secretary will necessarily pull any noose more tightly around Ms Gillard's neck.




Yes, there is no way of knowing what she may say.  However, there seems to be the perception on the MS blog (and it's now grown too big for me to reference the relevant parts) that Olive was a meticulous employee of S&G and some of her comments handwritten on documents seemed to suggest that some of Gillard's activities at the firm raised her suspicions. 

However, just the fact that the Vic Police are actually questioning her is positive news. They could have just dropped it for lack of evidence. A few people familiar with police procedures have said that the fact that Vic police were willing to send 2 officers interstate for a couple of days to do the questioning is in itself unusual. Such expenditure would rarely be approved for just routine questioning, so they see significance in that.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I just fear another issue like the carbon tax which the electorate doesn't regard as especially important, but on which the Libs are placing massive importance.
> .




Maybe the Libs are going to roll out the cost to the Australian economy of having coal fired power stations sitting idle while we burn much more exspensive fuels.

It seems like an obvious ploy to me, I think I read last week where base load at Tarong wasn't available.
Smurph has explained it endlessly, but obviously it is missing the mark, they are not running coal fired plant and this is costing someone.

I certainly hope this is the Libs ploy, it will blow the feet out of Labor.IMO


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> I'll be glad when this is all over..............



So far they've burnt an inherited surplus, and racked up $147Bill of net national debt. The PM is running around playing Fairy Godmother to all the Cinderellas she can phone, tweet, text or greet at a bushfire.  

The national accounts are going to get ugly before this is all over. Let's hope that long-suffering taxpayers will get home before midnight.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Unless a *completely watertight case *can be made out against her, Gillard will not be  charged. No serving PM has ever been charged with an indictable offence, and it would be a very daunting task for any police force to initiate this charge.  The final decision would rest with the State Government. The political fall out if the charge failed would be huge.
> 
> I have my doubts that justice will be served.




I tend to agree, I think the office of the PM would have some sort of immunity from prosecution unless the charge was very serious and irrefutable.


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> I tend to agree, I think the office of the PM would have some sort of immunity from prosecution unless the charge was very serious and irrefutable.





I think so too, but then there is this teaser from Michael Smith today:

*I have had the best news today!!!! Fantastic news and I want you to know.*

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ay-fantastic-news-and-i-want-you-to-know.html


----------



## drsmith

Upon listening to Michael Smith little teaser I'm expecting a step in the right direction, but not anything major such as someone being charged.

Still, a step in the right direction is a good step.


----------



## DB008

Well, our school kids were recently ranked low on a international ratings scale.

Wonder what opportunities awaits for them when they try to go to uni?

Have a look at what China is doing...the best investment any Government/Country can make. Investing in educating people.

An investment that will pay off many, many, many times over in the long run.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/business/chinas-ambitious-goal-for-boom-in-college-graduates.html?hp&_r=0



> *China is making a $250 billion-a-year investment in what economists call human capital*. Just as the United States helped build a white-collar middle class in the late 1940s and early 1950s by using the G.I. Bill to help educate millions of World War II veterans, the Chinese government is using large subsidies to educate tens of millions of young people as they move from farms to cities.
> 
> The aim is to change the current system, in which a tiny, highly educated elite oversees vast armies of semi-trained factory workers and rural laborers. China wants to move up the development curve by fostering a much more broadly educated public, one that more closely resembles the multifaceted labor forces of the United States and Europe.


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> Well, our school kids were recently ranked low on a international ratings scale.
> 
> Wonder what opportunities awaits for them when they try to go to uni?
> 
> Have a look at what China is doing...the best investment any Government/Country can make. Investing in educating people.
> 
> An investment that will pay off many, many, many times over in the long run.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/business/chinas-ambitious-goal-for-boom-in-college-graduates.html?hp&_r=0




Well they can probably become teachers.Lol 

http://www.news.com.au/national/low...teaching-nursing/story-fndo4eg9-1226530628399

Then the best of the worst can become teachers union organisers. Then jump into politics.lol


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> Well they can probably become teachers.Lol
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/low...teaching-nursing/story-fndo4eg9-1226530628399




So called 'School Revolution' hey sp?


----------



## sptrawler

The only revolution we need is, the Australian public to stop eating the garbage this government is throwing up.
Talk about sliding down the economic scale, we are accelerating.
Could someone show me something other than mining and self serving NBN, that is on the up.
Apart from taxes.lol
I'm not saying, the next lot will be better, but why throw good money after bad.
This is a stock forum, so many of us have seen company management forever telling us they are turning the corner, just need another capital raising.
Eventually you have to bail out.lol


----------



## Julia

DB008 said:


> Well, our school kids were recently ranked low on a international ratings scale.
> 
> Wonder what opportunities awaits for them when they try to go to uni?



You beat me to posting this.  Just incredible that our future teachers will have a score of around 45% to get into the teaching course.  No wonder the standards of students are so woeful.

And Ms Gillard says Australia will in not too many years hence be placed in the top five in the world.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Julia Gillard's latest wacky statement.

She says she doesn't, but the message is clear, she wants to abolish the States now.

No word of this when the ALP were in power in most states.

From the AFR.



> JOANNA HEATH AND JOANNA MATHER
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard believes the political system would function better if the state governments were replaced by a system of large regional councils working in conjunction with the federal government.
> 
> “The truth is if you were starting again from a blank page, if you were just there with a map of Australia and a country of our size and an economy of our size, and you’d said let’s create a system of government, I don’t think you would put out the one we’ve got now with three tiers: local, state and federal,” Ms Gillard said on ABC radio on Friday.
> 
> She said she was a realist and was not suggesting abolishing the states.




gg


----------



## noco

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Julia Gillard's latest wacky statement.
> 
> She says she doesn't, but the message is clear, she wants to abolish the States now.
> 
> No word of this when the ALP were in power in most states.
> 
> From the AFR.
> 
> 
> 
> gg




Yes GG, without the states it would make it so much easier for her to tuirn Australia into a left wing socilist republic with her as the dictatorial presdent. Gawd wouldn't she love that.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

She does tend to want to centralise power, noco, to the Federal ALP and her inner circle.

Even her cabinet often don't get a say.

gg


----------



## DB008

How's that MRRT going????



> AUSTRALIANS wanting to know what revenue, if any, has been raised by the mining tax won't hear it from the federal government anytime soon, despite calls for greater transparency.
> 
> Treasurer Wayne Swan has cited underwhelming corporate tax revenues as part of the reason why he will likely renege on a promise to bring the May budget into surplus, however he refuses to indicate whether resource companies have contributed to the Minerals Resource Rent Tax.
> 
> "We can't draw conclusions over a short period of time when (commodity) prices have been low," he said on Friday evening during a trip to New York after AAP inquired how the tax had performed since July.
> 
> "We have to look over a longer period of time and see how prices go."
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/govt-coy-on-mrrt-revenue/story-e6frfkui-1226557224739#ixzz2INvBlYqE




What a joke...


----------



## sptrawler

I'm not a great believer in polls, especially a long way out from an election.
However for those who do follow the polls, here's one for the 'worlds greatest treasurer'.
Obviously some in his electorate don't agree.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...o-lose-seat-poll/story-fn3dxiwe-1226557239161

Apparently the goose is taking credit for interest rates being so low, hasn't he realised interest rates are low because we are nearly in recession.
Then again, he probably should take the credit for it.lol


----------



## McLovin

sptrawler said:


> I'm not a great believer in polls, especially a long way out from an election.




Me neither. It's like asking someone what they want for Christmas in January.


----------



## sptrawler

McLovin said:


> Me neither. It's like asking someone what they want for Christmas in January.




Good analogy McLovin.


----------



## noco

McLovin said:


> Me neither. It's like asking someone what they want for Christmas in January.




You won't have to wait untill Xmas. I think you should be asking the Easter Bunny what sort of chocolate you would like.

A march election is in the wind.


----------



## drsmith

Lady in red.


----------



## Miss Hale

If you what you got for Christmas didn't work (Labor/Greens govt) I think you'd know by Boxing Day what you'd want next Christmas


----------



## sydboy007

Julia said:


> You beat me to posting this.  Just incredible that our future teachers will have a score of around 45% to get into the teaching course.  No wonder the standards of students are so woeful.
> 
> And Ms Gillard says Australia will in not too many years hence be placed in the top five in the world.




Who'd want to be a public school teacher these days?  Starting pay is OK for a graduate, but after a few years most other jobs will have you earning more, and generally with a lot less stress.  What's that?  The holidays they get.  Well a good teacher spends a lot of them marking assignments and exams, along with lesson preparation.  Also you only ever get time of when it's most expensive to have a holiday.

I thank Terry Metherell for going to war with the NSW teachers when I was delusional enough to think I'd become a chemistry teacher.  So glad Wollongong Uni had just started a B.Infotech that year.

There's little reward for being a good teacher, and the sad fact is a lot of parents don't provide their kids with much assistance at home, then go blame the teachers for their kids failures.

I can tell you, my experience at school was the kids who had parents that helped them with their homework as best they could, did well.  The ones that didn't have parents who cared, well not many of them went on to accomplish too much.


----------



## sptrawler

Sydboy, my father in law was a headmaster, he gave it away when he couldn't demand a teacher improve their performance.
To him it was about teaching the kids, he got frustrated when it was about the teachers and what they wanted.
It used to be calling, now it is a job that you can get if you don't get the marks to get into mining.lol


----------



## sptrawler

It will be interesting to see how this is handled. The pommie spin doctor will have his work cut out.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-puts-gillard-in-hot-seat-20130119-2czy2.html


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I must admit a certain sadness for Julia Gillard.

The Public dislike her.

Kevin Rudd dislikes her.

Her Cabinet dislikes her.

The Opposition dislike her.

Single mums dislike her.

Welfare recipients dislike her.

Self-employed business people dislike her.

Workers dislike her.

Mining dislikes her.

Unions dislike her.

ALP Backenchers dislike her.

She will be so pleased when she loses the upcoming Federal Election.

It will be a release for her.

Poor Julia Gillard.

Then there is the after.

gg


----------



## wayneL

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I must admit a certain sadness for Julia Gillard.
> 
> The Public dislike her.
> 
> Kevin Rudd dislikes her.
> 
> Her Cabinet dislikes her.
> 
> The Opposition dislike her.
> 
> Single mums dislike her.
> 
> Welfare recipients dislike her.
> 
> Self-employed business people dislike her.
> 
> Workers dislike her.
> 
> Mining dislikes her.
> 
> Unions dislike her.
> 
> ALP Backenchers dislike her.
> 
> She will be so pleased when she loses the upcoming Federal Election.
> 
> It will be a release for her.
> 
> Poor Julia Gillard.
> 
> Then there is the after.
> 
> gg




I suppose it's nothing new for our Julia, she must have been roundly despised as a solicitor for S&G.


----------



## Logique

Squirreling away behind the scenes, they chip away at our freedoms. Have they nothing better to do, like say, reducing net national debt, or getting electricity prices down.




> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ensnare-everyone/story-fn59niix-1226557768930
> *Nicola Roxon's laws 'can ensnare everyone' *
> by: Milanda Rout From: The Australian January 21, 2013
> 
> LEGAL experts have questioned whether Labor's draft anti-discrimination laws are constitutional, arguing the expansion of federal powers is a step too far into community life that will ensnare students, parents, employees and even sports spectators.
> 
> As the Senate inquiry into the bill prepares to hold its first hearings this week, constitutional law professors Nicholas Aroney of the University of Queensland and Patrick Parkinson of the University of Sydney say it could also fall foul of our international obligations and may lead to successful court challenges.


----------



## bellenuit

Logique said:


> Squirreling away behind the scenes, they chip away at our freedoms. Have they nothing better to do, like say, reducing net national debt, or getting electricity prices down.
> View attachment 50523




Fixing something that aint broken


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> Fixing something that aint broken




What do you mean?


----------



## drsmith

On Essential Media's latest poll, Labor's re-election prospects are still broken at 54/46 2PP in favour of the Coalition.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport

That's no change on last week.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> On Essential Media's latest poll, Labor's re-election prospects are still broken at 54/46 2PP in favour of the Coalition.
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport
> That's no change on last week.



Increasingly, questions must be asked about the relationship between the Govt and Newspoll. 

Because we've had yet another iteration - the big headline splash '..polls closer, Labor back in the race..', then sure enough, other pollsters saying '..ahem, our results aren't quite that pronounced..'


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Increasingly, questions must be asked about the relationship between the Govt and Newspoll.
> 
> Because we've had yet another iteration - the big headline splash '..polls closer, Labor back in the race..', then sure enough, other pollsters saying '..ahem, our results aren't quite that pronounced..'



It's a bit odd that Newspoll is conducted exclusively for "The Australian" as I understand it.
And Essential Media has strong connections to Labor.


----------



## DB008

Was driving this morning (in Sydney) and I heard them (Ray Hadley) talk about an article in todays newspaper about the 'cost of benefits' governments have been paying out over the last decade.

I didn't catch all of it (you know how AM is, in the car, with a busted antenna, LOL!), but it sounded like 'When Howard was in power, Government paid out some $60 BILLION per year in benefits. It's now up to over $107 BILLION per year'.

Lets encourage people to - cheat, lie, become lazy dole bludgers, expect hand outs, take the easy path.....
While we're at it, lets let more people into this country who come here expecting everything to be placed on a silver platter.

Talk about people who have no idea how to manage money. Seriously. Stop acting like a little brat trying to get votes, and do the job you were elected to do. 

107 Billion - NBN right there - many times over
107 Billion - $6 billion per year wasted on illegal immigrants


It's like a school kid in a candy shop throwing money away like confetti.


----------



## Some Dude

Mark the Ballot does poll aggregation for the Australian polls, with the most recent post showing poll movements and error margins relative to other polls.

Shorter post, coalition still on track to win.



Julia said:


> It's a bit odd that Newspoll is conducted exclusively for "The Australian" as I understand it.
> And Essential Media has strong connections to Labor.




I can't find the analysis now but some has been done to highlight statistical bias, not necessarily political bias though interpretation is obviously open to the individual, in the various polls. If I can find it, I will post.

Edit: Found the most current for Poll Bludger. The table is weighting according to historical polling results.



		Code:
	

			Weight	F/N	ALP	L-NP	GRN
Newspoll		1.00		+1.0	+0.3	-1.0
Morgan phone	        0.95		+0.2	+0.8	-1.2
Galaxy			0.93		+0.9	+0.3	-1.4
Nielsen			0.74		+2.1	-1.3	-0.6
Essential		0.83	0.70	-2.0	-1.9	+1.0
Morgan F2F		0.47	0.39	-3.6	+1.0	-0.4


----------



## drsmith

If Julia Gillard wants to call an election prior to the first sitting of the year, she's going to have to do it very soon.

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Sitting_Calendar


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> It's a bit odd that Newspoll is conducted exclusively for "The Australian" as I understand it.
> And Essential Media has strong connections to Labor.




I think there will be a big call for voters to be aware when allocating prefernces.


----------



## Ijustnewit

Hi Everyone , Just out of interest has anyone else received a personally addressed letter from their local Labor member or office in the last few days ? I would be interested to know , as I feel that most of you guys are correct in saying Gillard will call an election sooner than later. I would assume these mass mail outs will confirm this.

Also today this..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-22/gillard-picks-nova-peris-to-run-for-senate/4478528

Where there is smoke there is fire I say.


----------



## Miss Hale

Another high profile Labor polly parachuted in.  Nova Peris to run for the senate.


http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/super-nova-a-captains-pick-20130122-2d45p.html


----------



## dutchie

Miss Hale said:


> Another high profile Labor polly parachuted in.  Nova Peris to run for the senate.
> 
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/super-nova-a-captains-pick-20130122-2d45p.html




Lets see now..

1. Not a member of the Labor Party.
2. No experience.
3. NT ALP not consulted.
4. Existing member of 15 years not consulted other than "stand down"
5. Ignores pre-selection process.


Nice.


----------



## basilio

Not a surprise to see Nova Peris parachuted into the NT Senate seat. 

It seems crystal clear that indigenous voters are moving to CLP candidates who happen to be indigenous. The Liberal Party member Ken Wyatt appears to a particularly effective representative for aborigines.  To be in the race the Labour Party had to respond with a similarly effective candidate.

Cynical perhaps. Practical absolutely....


----------



## Sean K

What an absolute joke. 

What does Nova bring to this apart from being Aboriginal?

Apparently she's been a treaty ambassador for a defunct commission. Good work.

And, she's clearly a master of the metaphor. 



> When asked why Labor had lost the support of indigenous voters in NT, Ms Peris said she believed that Labor "took their eye off the mark".


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> Lets see now..
> 
> 1. Not a member of the Labor Party.
> 2. No experience.
> 3. NT ALP not consulted.
> 4. Existing member of 15 years not consulted other than "stand down"
> 5. Ignores pre-selection process.
> 
> 
> Nice.




Classic Labor move.lol

Wasn't Johny Farnham available?


----------



## MrBurns

kennas said:


> What an absolute joke.
> 
> What does Nova bring to this apart from being Aboriginal?




A woman AND black, a Gillard dream candidate.

Nova Peris seems like a nice person, obviously conned by the weasel.


----------



## Miss Hale

I think this could backfire in a big way.  Already in her first interview Peris was blubbing and seemed way out of her comfort zone, which highlights that she was chosen because she ticks a couple of politically correct boxes (indigenous, female) rather than being someone who really has something to offer and the skills to carry it through. She's not  a member of the Labor party yet either.


----------



## drsmith

The sitting senator isn't happy that the PM has raided the knife block and snuck up behind her in the dead of night.



> LABOR Senator Trish Crossin has slammed the Prime Minister's decision to endorse Olympian Nova Peris as an NT candidate for the Senate.
> 
> Ms Crossin looks set to fight Ms Gillard over the decision, saying preselection was a matter for the NT Labor branch members to decide.
> 
> "NT ALP Branch members determine who will represent them in the NT and Federal parliaments and it is those members of the party whose opinions and trust must be respected in terms of determining who can best serve the diverse interests of the NT electorate," she said.
> 
> "As an advocate and Federal representative for the NT, I will not be making further comment until I have spoken with and consulted NT branch members and my colleagues."
> 
> Ms Crossin said the Prime Minister told her on Monday evening that she wanted Ms Peris for the Senate.
> 
> "This action has been taken without consultation or negotiation with the NT branch of the ALP or my input as the long-serving Federal Labor Senator for the Northern Territory," she said.




http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2013/01/22/316874_ntnews.html#comment


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The sitting senator isn't happy that the PM has raided the knife block and snuck up behind her in the dead of night.
> http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2013/01/22/316874_ntnews.html#comment




Good let's hope this blows up in her face.


----------



## drsmith

Ralph's back.

http://www.news.com.au/top-stories/...victorian-police/story-e6frfkp9-1226559356551


----------



## sptrawler

Now they are saying the Kotch's, comments on breast feeding were orchestrated. "No, well I never, who would have guessed"
The funny thing is whose stunt was he copying?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/enter...nts-were-a-stunt/story-fncaks2k-1226559367473

They obviously noticed how well Gillards misogyny speach went down.


----------



## PinguPingu

Oh man, the Nova Peris selection is going to backfire big time. People in general believe in fairness and hard work to earn positions, not because you come from a political advantageous polling demographic. Wasn't Rudd dumped for these similar decisions himself?


They're either going to muzzle the senator hard or find a way to keep both of them.


----------



## sptrawler

PinguPingu said:


> Oh man, the Nova Peris selection is going to backfire big time. People in general believe in fairness and hard work to earn positions, not because you come from a political advantageous polling demographic. Wasn't Rudd dumped for these similar decisions himself?
> 
> 
> They're either going to muzzle the senator hard or find a way to keep both of them.




Yes I think the Peter Garret, Maxine McKew parachute jobs, are still fresh in the electorates mind.

Rudd was dumped because he wasn't aligned to a union faction.


----------



## Logique

Apparently the displaced (or realistically sacked after 15 years) Senator voted for Rudd in the last leadership spill. Taxpayers will be looking after her quite nicely in retirement, I wouldn't be shedding too many tears for her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_Peris-Kneebone
"In 2005, she [Peris] sold her Olympic memorabilia to the National Museum of Australia for $140,000.[3] It included her gold medal, hockey stick, Sydney Olympic torch and the running shoes she wore in the Sydney Olympics.[4]"  ...Quite the sentimentalist.


----------



## Miss Hale

Logique said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_Peris-Kneebone
> "In 2005, she [Peris] sold her Olympic memorabilia to the National Museum of Australia for $140,000.[3] It included her gold medal, hockey stick, Sydney Olympic torch and the running shoes she wore in the Sydney Olympics.[4]"  ...Quite the sentimentalist.




Maybe she was short of cash, that's usually why sports people sell their medals etc.


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> Lets see now..
> 
> 1. Not a member of the Labor Party.
> 2. No experience.
> 3. NT ALP not consulted.
> 4. Existing member of 15 years not consulted other than "stand down"
> 5. Ignores pre-selection process.
> 
> 
> Nice.






Miss Hale said:


> I think this could backfire in a big way.  Already in her first interview Peris was blubbing and seemed way out of her comfort zone, which highlights that she was chosen because she ticks a couple of politically correct boxes (indigenous, female) rather than being someone who really has something to offer and the skills to carry it through. She's not  a member of the Labor party yet either.



What an insult to the sitting member.  What on earth qualifies Ms Peris for political office?
Julia Gillard has quite wrongly interfered in the preselection process.

Even if I'd seen some genuine value in Ms Peris in the first place, she would have totally lost me with her damn weeping in the news bulletin.  It's like an episode of MasterChef where they are overcome by sentimental emotional stuff.  Leaves me absolutely cold.



Logique said:


> Apparently the displaced (or realistically sacked after 15 years) Senator voted for Rudd in the last leadership spill. Taxpayers will be looking after her quite nicely in retirement, I wouldn't be shedding too many tears for her.



Good.  I'm glad to hear it.  That doesn't make Gillard's interference in the process right.


----------



## MrBurns

Gillard referred to this as a "captains pick" she obviously sees Parliament as her own private playground 
I would have thought the best people should be favoured


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> Gillard referred to this as a "captains pick" she obviously sees Parliament as her own private playground
> I would have thought the best people should be favoured




Well if we keep selecting politicians on their media attributes, it won't belong before the government can run a "Live Aid" concert.
Just parachute in a base player, a drummer and a couple of backing singers.
What a way to run a country.LOL

It's a shame Maxine has gone, she could have covered it. Still we have Peter as lead singer, what a circus.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> Gillard referred to this as a "captains pick" she obviously sees Parliament as her own private playground
> I would have thought the best people should be favoured




She loves sporting analogies, she thinks it makes her sound in touch with the average Aussie, instead she just comes across as a try hard wannabe  It's the equivalent of Rudd's 'fair suck of the sauce bottle' stuff.  Cringeworthy


----------



## drsmith

She won't sporting analogies anymore after selector's day.


----------



## sptrawler

Miss Hale said:


> She loves sporting analogies, she thinks it makes her sound in touch with the average Aussie, instead she just comes across as a try hard wannabe  It's the equivalent of Rudd's 'fair suck of the sauce bottle' stuff.  Cringeworthy




If she was in touch with the average sporting Australian, she would do something about the bolt on backside.


----------



## MrBurns

Gillard goes from bad to worse to just plain incredibly unbelievably out of touch focused entirely on her own survival
She treats the public as complete fools and now treats the Australian Parliament with contempt by stacking it with those not able to serve us best but those able to serve her own interests best 
Peris is obviously a decent person used by Gillard in her endless power play
She will be subjected to ridicule because of this move and she seems like the sort of person that won't handle it well


----------



## dutchie

sptrawler said:


> Still we have Peter as lead singer, what a circus.




Come off it, Emerson is a much better singer!


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Gillard goes from bad to worse to just plain incredibly unbelievably out of touch focused entirely on her own survival
> She treats the public as complete fools and now treats the Australian Parliament with contempt by stacking it with those not able to serve us best but those able to serve her own interests best
> Peris is obviously a decent person used by Gillard in her endless power play
> She will be subjected to ridicule because of this move and she seems like the sort of person that won't handle it well




She (Gillard) is absolutely clueless.

Peris is also clueless. She does not have a clue that this women is just using her.


----------



## DB008

Andrew Bolt on 2GB Alan Jones show this morning talking about the freedom laws that Nicola Roxon wants to introduce. 

Very good interview. What a joke Gillard & Co are.

If the interview gets published, l'll post it.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> Peris is also clueless. She does not have a clue that this women is just using her.




I think she will be hurt badly in the end by Gillard, she has no idea she's being used as you say but it will become clear fairly soon, I hope she has the sense to bail early.


----------



## DocK

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2013/01/23/Feathers_ruffled_over_Crossin_knifing_838206.html


> The dumping of Northern Territory senator Trish Crossin to make way for star Labor recruit, indigenous athlete Nova Peris, has been described as brutal and 'a night of the long knives against a senator.'
> 
> Labor left co-convenor Senator Doug Cameron, a friend of Senator Crossin, is disappointed with Prime Minister Julia Gillard's interference in the NT Senate preselection process.
> 
> 'If we have a problem in the Northern Territory with indigenous representation we should have been dealing with this six months ago,' he told ABC Radio.
> 
> 'We should be looking at how we attract talented Aboriginal people into the party, how we can make the party relevant to them.'
> 
> He said it was not relevant to be 'parachuting people in and saying that soothes our conscience in terms of Aboriginal representation.'
> 
> 'It's a short-term fix that belies a deeper problem,' he said.
> 
> Senator Cameron described Prime Minister Julia Gillard's 'captain's pick' as brutal and 'a night of the long knives against a senator.'




Apologies if this has already been posted.  I do hope that the people of NT are smarter than they're being given credit for.  The sudden removal of Rudd didn't go down particularly well with some Labor voters in Qld did it?  This blatant grab for votes may very well backfire - I've a feeling that we won't have too long to wait to find out.


----------



## DB008

And how the other half view Andrew Bolt.

Screen-shot from reddit, subreddit/r/Australia


----------



## DB008

Surprised?

BRR - Building Railway Revolution??? 


Gillard governments freight railway opened on Monday, $700 million over budget and three years late...



> The first train line in Sydney to be paid for and built under the Rudd and Gillard governments opened on Monday, $700 million over budget and three years after it was promised to be finished.
> 
> The final cost was about $1 billion. When Mr Albanese announced the start of construction in February 2009, he put a figure of $309 million on the project and a completion date of early 2010.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/we-wanted-to-make-sure-we-got-it-right-new-rail-line-opens--three-years-late-20130121-2d279.html#ixzz2IkPach9W


----------



## pilots

MrBurns said:


> I think she will be hurt badly in the end by Gillard, she has no idea she's being used as you say but it will become clear fairly soon, I hope she has the sense to bail early.




This must go down as Gillards dumbest moves ever, she is going to have bite marks all over that big backside of hers.


----------



## drsmith

Is something else starting to wriggle, again ?



> Meanwhile, an expanded police investigation called by Kevin Rudd over his swearing YouTube video will hang like a "cloud" over the Prime Minister's office at the start of the parliamentary year, a Labor MP said yesterday.
> 
> Mr Rudd has identified possible new witnesses in what he believes was the theft of the footage and the unauthorised release of the video in which he unleashed a string of expletives in out takes of a message he was recording in Chinese.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...evenge-over-rudd/story-e6frf7jo-1226559576381


----------



## Calliope

pilots said:


> This must go down as Gillards dumbest moves ever, she is going to have bite marks all over that big backside of hers.




I have had little regard for Ms Kneebone since her win in the 200m final in the 1998 Commonwealth Games. The favorite, Melinda Gainsford-Taylor was leading when she broke down near the finish line. She limped over the line for fourth. Kneebone's gloating attitude was nauseating.


----------



## MrBurns

Another day another headline, surely people are a wake up to her now.



> Gillard vows to fight 'malicious' cyber attacks
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has warned of a decades-long war against the growing risk of malicious cyber attacks and promised to set up a new national centre to combat the threat.
> 
> Releasing the Government's National Security Strategy, Ms Gillard spoke of the cyber threat to governments, businesses and individuals, and highlighted the need to strengthen Australia's ability to respond.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-23/gillard-national-security-strategy/4480448


----------



## DB008

MrBurns said:


> Another day another headline, surely people are a wake up to her now.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-23/gillard-national-security-strategy/4480448




Did some sort of cyber center open last year, or in 2011? I thought this was old news?


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> I suppose it's nothing new for our Julia, she must have been roundly despised as a solicitor for S&G.





..............


----------



## Logique

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...m-by-seeking-preselection-20130123-2d60h.html
*Crossin to defy PM by seeking preselection* January 23, 2013 



> ..Mr Wright said that the national executive would consider Senator Crossin and other applications if they were made, but he confirmed that *no one from Labor's Northern Territory branch would be allowed to vote*.
> 
> Speaking in Melbourne earlier on Wednesday, *Senator Crossin challenged the ALP national executive to put Ms Peris' name on a party ballot*.
> 
> She said her immediate focus was to get members a ballot - which she would nominate for - and she encouraged people not to resign from the party in protest at her treatment..
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...reselection-20130123-2d60h.html#ixzz2InA4BMm7


----------



## Logique

IFocus said:


> ...Ivory Tower...Wittenoom...



Fair point IF.


----------



## DB008

If Nikola Roxon brings these new laws in, we'll eventually end up like Thailand where criticism of the King lands you in jail, but it will be anyone who takes offence, over anything. What a joke.



> Magazine editor jailed for 11 years defaming Thai king
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/roxons-laws-can-ensnare-everyone/story-fn59niix-1226557768930


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

DB008 said:


> If Nikola Roxon brings these new laws in, we'll eventually end up like Thailand where criticism of the King lands you in jail, but it will be anyone who takes offence, over anything. What a joke.




+1

gg


----------



## drsmith

Logique said:


> Fair point IF.



The client chooses the lawyer, does it not ?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Gillard and Roxon should remember Martin NiemÃ¶ller's famous statement in their 1984 type assault on free speech.




> First they came for the communists,
> and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
> 
> Then they came for the socialists,
> and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
> 
> Then they came for the trade unionists,
> and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
> 
> Then they came for the jews,
> and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
> 
> Then they came for the catholics,
> and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a catholic.
> 
> Then they came for me,
> and there was no one left to speak for me.




Attempts at Fascist thought control is the beginning, the end is ignominy, in democracies.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Front page of the ABC web site AGAIN 



> Gillard visits top-secret Defence spy centre




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-24/gillard-visits-defence-signals-directorate/4482468


----------



## DB008

Mr Burns, your right. Election not far away. They are gearing up.




> *Schools used as election PR fodder*
> 
> SCHOOLS with recently finished BER buildings will be required to hold election year "recognition ceremonies" at which they are to praise the government and invite federal Employment Minister Bill Shorten to speak.
> 
> An online kit sent to schools advises teachers they are to make "provision in the official proceedings for the minister or his representative to speak" at ceremonies which are not to be planned for parliamentary sitting days.
> 
> Students can only be asked to speak "where possible and where time permits".
> 
> Schools are directed to "acknowledge the government's assistance in all speeches and publicity issued by the school such as newsletters, websites or local media articles".
> 
> Staff are also told they are to "record the day through photographs or video footage" and publish the material on the school website and to provide parking for guests, with a government plaque to be fixed to the building.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/schools-used-as-election-pr-fodder/story-e6freuy9-1226560422676


----------



## MrBurns

DB008 said:


> Mr Burns, your right. Election not far away. They are gearing up.




Geeeez  Does that sound like Beijing or North Korea or what


----------



## sails

DB008 said:


> Mr Burns, your right. Election not far away. They are gearing up.




I wonder how many kids will happen to be away the day federal politics intrudes into their schools!  I can't see the kids enjoying listening to shorten speak...lol


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> I wonder how many kids will happen to be away the day federal politics intrudes into their schools!  I can't see the kids enjoying listening to shorten speak...lol




They have their orders...


----------



## Ijustnewit

" Struggle for Labor In Bass " More here

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-25/struggle-for-labor-in-bass3a-poll/4483956?section=tas

Rumour has it , Gillard will be flying to Tasmania tomorrow to announce a new candidate , a famous athlete , denies doing anything wrong , was young and naive , will lie and cheat and do anything to win. Fits the Labor mould perfectly.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> They have their orders...




I doubt there will be any protest from the schools, most of the staff are card carrying union members if not Labor party members as well.  I recently overheard some teachers discussing how they had rejected a request from a local member to visit their school because he was a Liberal party member. Yep, kids are getting a balanced education


----------



## sptrawler

This isn't looking great for the government a transport company folding and the carbon tax hasn't been applied to them, yet.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/j...alls-calls-administrators-20130125-2dbms.html


The carbon tax doesn't happen untill 2014, when the carbon tax is applied to fuel.lol


----------



## DB008

Crazy. Insane. 

The IPA's James Paterson explains why Nicola Roxon's anti-discrimination law is so dangerous - and David Marr agrees! From ABC24's The Drum on Wednesday 24 January.


----------



## noco

DB008 said:


> Crazy. Insane.
> 
> The IPA's James Paterson explains why Nicola Roxon's anti-discrimination law is so dangerous - and David Marr agrees! From ABC24's The Drum on Wednesday 24 January.





Wow, What a surpirise to hear the socalist left David Marr speak against the bill. He normally supports what ever Gillard says or does.

He is humane after all!!!


----------



## noco

It is a pity a few more dignitaries did not speak up about these draconian laws.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._judge_blasts_gillards_attack_on_free_speech/


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> It is a pity a few more dignitaries did not speak up about these draconian laws.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._judge_blasts_gillards_attack_on_free_speech/



When a former Judge of the High Court says:

 "..A law of this kind fails the elementary test of rational, consistent, and worse, undiscriminating application.  In consequence, *the cases selected for prosecution will be exactly that, “selected”*, that is to say, carefully chosen, under the influence or pressure of the most vociferous pressure groups.."

..then you know something is seriously wrong.

The regime grows ever more authoritarian. What's next, 'selecting' oligarchs for a stay at an Australian new-Siberia?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Logique said:


> When a former Judge of the High Court says:
> 
> "..A law of this kind fails the elementary test of rational, consistent, and worse, undiscriminating application.  In consequence, *the cases selected for prosecution will be exactly that, “selected”*, that is to say, carefully chosen, under the influence or pressure of the most vociferous pressure groups.."
> 
> ..then you know something is seriously wrong.
> 
> The regime grows ever more authoritarian. What's next, 'selecting' oligarchs for a stay at an Australian new-Siberia?




It operates in reverse in the ALP.

If you are good at something like push-halfpenny, rocket science or growing orchids, the ALP say " I'll have that "

Thus Peres is now exiled to Canberra, where she will be villified and not get a chance to play hockey, which she is quite good at, I am told.

Then that is the ALP way.

gg


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> Wow, What a surpirise to hear the socalist left David Marr speak against the bill. He normally supports what ever Gillard says or does.
> 
> He is humane after all!!!




Yes. He said that it is impossible to engage in vigorous debate without offending somebody. The offence will be taken by someone who doesn't like you. The onus will be on you to prove you didn't give offence. How the hell do you do that?

What offends some doesn't offend others. Marr, for instance, couldn't care less if you criticised his sexual preferences, but a thousand sensitive souls would take offence and say they were insulted.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Calliope said:


> Yes. He said that it is impossible to engage in vigorous debate without offending somebody. The offence will be taken by someone who doesn't like you. The onus will be on you to prove you didn't give offence. How the hell do you do that?
> 
> What offends some doesn't offend others. Marr, for instance, couldn't care less if you criticised his sexual preferences, but a thousand sensitive souls would take offence and say they were insulted.




+1

gg


----------



## MrBurns

I can hear the sound of thousands of lawyers booking world trips....first class


----------



## Calliope

On Australia Day Julia said;



> 'As migrants - all four million of us - we did not just adopt a new country,'' she said.
> 
> ''This is your new country, and you'll never want another. Welcome to citizenship. Welcome to Australia. Welcome home.'


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> On Australia Day Julia said;



I don't get that cartoon.

With the exception of Sri Lankan arrivals, nothing could be further from the truth.

She'd do better to swing around and say that to the Greens.


----------



## Calliope

I don't agree with Tim Mathieson that you should look for a "small female Asian doctor" to do your digital prostrate examination. I think the *len*gth of the index plays plays an important role, and while women's index fingers are usually their longest finger, and the ring finger is longest for men, overall men's index fingers will be longer than women's.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> I don't agree with Tim Mathieson that you should look for a "small female Asian doctor" to do your digital prostrate examination. I think the *len*gth of the index plays plays an important role, and while women's index fingers are usually their longest finger, and the ring finger is longest for men, overall men's index fingers will be longer than women's.




What a comprehensively stupid thing for a man in his position to say.
Doesn't he read the news or does he just do housework all day.

Explain away your sexist mysoginist partner now Gillard.


----------



## Calliope

The ABC gets it right for a change.




*Please Don't Make Stand in the Naughty Corner Mr Bailleau.*


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> What a comprehensively stupid thing for a man in his position to say.
> Doesn't he read the news or does he just do housework all day.
> 
> Explain away your sexist mysoginist partner now Gillard.




Well MrBurns, it didn't take long for her stupid speach to backfire in her face.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> What a comprehensively stupid thing for a man in his position to say.
> Doesn't he read the news or does he just do housework all day.
> 
> Explain away your sexist mysoginist partner now Gillard.



It was quite funny to see the smile disappear from Ms Gillard's face.  I expect Tim was in for some trouble once they were out of the public eye.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Julia said:


> It was quite funny to see the smile disappear from Ms Gillard's face.  I expect Tim was in for some trouble once they were out of the public eye.




Perhaps she intended to give him a digital examination of her own behind the Green door.....


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Well MrBurns, it didn't take long for her stupid speach to backfire in her face.




It's astounding that after all the trouble and publicitiy surrounding this issue that the PM's partner should be mysogynist, sexist and racist all at once, just goes to show how much he involves himself in her work
Any dimwitted casual observer of current affairs wouldn't have made that blunder outside the public bar.


----------



## shag

he looked like he was already in trouble with rughead, by her foul look. opps i mean even fouler than normal.
maybe she knew what the topic was-mens health, or maybe he stuffs up as much as she does and she expected such. like assimilation.

anyone, male or female who whinges re his courage, should go and sit and pivot on a fence post, nice and hard.

this pc crud is pathetic, we all know asians tend to be more petite than say a fence post like polynesian didget. its just the facts. females more petite than doods, apart from other matters. 

surely the much neglected mens health is far more vital than the current pc drive.

the pc brigade really got traction over the ditch under endless labour, untill it was far from rediculous. be warned.


----------



## Miss Hale

Calliope said:


> The ABC gets it right for a change.
> 
> View attachment 50662
> 
> 
> *Please Don't Make Stand in the Naughty Corner Mr Bailleau.*




Caption reads  '...*Juliar* Gillard',  Fruedian slip by the ABC?


----------



## shag

Julia said:


> It was quite funny to see the smile disappear from Ms Gillard's face.  I expect Tim was in for some trouble once they were out of the public eye.




like a day of screaching, or a week of it-like most weeks in parliament?
maybe its worse and he will b sent to pc school.
lucky its a big house anyway. pizza and get the black book out id guess.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> It's astounding that after all the trouble and publicitiy surrounding this issue that the PM's partner should be mysogynist, sexist and racist all at once, just goes to show how much he involves himself in her work
> Any dimwitted casual observer of current affairs wouldn't have made that blunder outside the public bar.




What a storm in a teacup. Who did he offend, insult or injure?:dunno: Male white doctors with fat fingers perhaps? But they don't have any political clout. Julia and Tim are probably laughing their heads off now.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> What a storm in a teacup. Who did he offend, insult or injure?:dunno: Male white doctors with fat fingers perhaps? But they don't have any political clout. Julia and Tim are probably laughing their heads off now.




Not laughing for long, he insulted Asian women badly.
He's a complete d****head and perfect partner for Gillard.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> he insulted Asian women badly.




There is no evidence of this.



> He's a complete d****head and perfect partner for Gillard.




Maybe It's always a mistake for an amateur to offer professional advice. We could see a delay in men seeking prostate advice while that conduct a fruitless search for a "small female Asian doctor" who is an expert on prostates.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> There is no evidence of this.
> :




He inferred Asian women are better equipped to navigate a males anus.

Fairly insulting I'd say


----------



## McLovin

Who cares. Seriously, can't we move on from this petty fauxrage about anything anyone says or does?


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> Who cares. Seriously, can't we move on from this petty fauxrage about anything anyone says or does?




Not while that seems to be the way Labor want to play it, Ms misogynist heroine of fools and Youtube has to live by her own rules and if that what the hairdresser says in public it doesnt take much imagination to figure out the tone of the day to day conversation around the Gillard household.


----------



## Miss Hale

McLovin said:


> Who cares. Seriously, can't we move on from this petty fauxrage about anything anyone says or does?




Would love to move on but Roxon's new legislation means that Tim is likely to be prosecuted for a comment like this in the future.  Couldn't agree with you more about petty faux rage but it's the Gillard governement that want to be able to prosecute people for making comments like this so not simply petty faux rage afterall unfortunately.


----------



## McLovin

Miss Hale said:


> Would love to move on but Roxon's new legislation means that Tim is likely to be prosecuted for a comment like this in the future.  Couldn't agree with you more about petty faux rage but it's the Gillard governement that want to be able to prosecute people for making comments like this so not simply petty faux rage afterall unfortunately.




If the debate was actually about that, then fine. But it's not. It's about catching the other team out.

The proliferation of social networking and the 24 hour news cycle has created a shortage of real "news" so we're stuck debating whether someone is a misogynist or not. I doubt Tim or Tony are.

And I agree with your re Roxon's bill, we'll end up like Britain with people being put in gaol for Tweets that offend.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> The ABC gets it right for a change.
> 
> View attachment 50662



It's been a busy day for our PM. One boot up the bum of her boyfriend and the other for the ABC.

Like usual, no legs left to stand on.


----------



## drsmith

Rob McClelland jumps the sinking ship.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...xt-election-20130129-2dijh.html#ixzz2JLDfjc6u


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Rob McClelland jumps the sinking ship.
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...xt-election-20130129-2dijh.html#ixzz2JLDfjc6u



On the opposite side, but I feel for him. His removal, by the PM, as Attorney General was a political fix facilitating the ascension of Roxon. We have seen what followed.


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> Would love to move on but Roxon's new legislation means that Tim is likely to be prosecuted for a comment like this in the future.



Not so. The government has carefully given itself special immunity to the anti-discrimination Bill, so I guess Tim, being an appendage of the government would be immune too.

The right to offend and insult Tony Abbott in Parliament is an essential element of the government's election strategy. The handbag assassins, Gillard, Roxon, Plibersek and Wong are gearing up for this now. The beauty of their strategy is that any criticism of their tactics would "offend and insult" them.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Not so. The government has carefully given itself special immunity to the anti-discrimination Bill, so I guess Tim, being an appendage of the government would be immune too.
> 
> .




A small appendage no doubt, and even smaller after that effort


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> What a storm in a teacup. Who did he offend, insult or injure?:dunno: Male white doctors with fat fingers perhaps? But they don't have any political clout. Julia and Tim are probably laughing their heads off now.




Anyone who has lost their virginity from the examination will know he is speaking the truth.

But he did show a lack of class I would say


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

drsmith said:


> Rob McClelland jumps the sinking ship.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...xt-election-20130129-2dijh.html#ixzz2JLDfjc6u





A sad loss to Parliament.

Those in the know will know he was sick of this Government.

He is a good bloke, has more intelligence than most and will be missed by both sides.

I will say no more.

gg


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> It's astounding that after all the trouble and publicitiy surrounding this issue that the *PM's partner should be mysogynist*, sexist and racist all at once, just goes to show how much he involves himself in her work
> Any dimwitted casual observer of current affairs wouldn't have made that blunder outside the public bar.




 Burns, you have used every derogatory, obscene and vulgar  word in the dictionary to recklessly demonize Julia Gillard, *so don't give us a lecture on "misogyny*".


----------



## Calliope

Political correctness gone mad. Some people want to give Tim Mathieson the same treatment as the Handbag Brigade gave Tony Abbott. Get a life.

[video]http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2330185095/Political-correctness-gone-mad[/video]


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Burns, you have used every derogatory, obscene and vulgar  word in the dictionary to recklessly demonize Julia Gillard, *so don't give us a lecture on "misogyny*".




Nothing to do with gender I repeat for the umteenth time, anyone who acts as she has done would get the same and if a man probably worse so if anything we've gone easy on her.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Macquack said:


> Burns, you have used every derogatory, obscene and vulgar  word in the dictionary to recklessly demonize Julia Gillard, *so don't give us a lecture on "misogyny*".






Calliope said:


> Political correctness gone mad. Some people want to give Tim Mathieson the same treatment as the Handbag Brigade gave Tony Abbott. Get a life.
> 
> [video]http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2330185095/Political-correctness-gone-mad[/video]




It's not misogyny, it's misogyfingerism.

When you have lightweights misusing the English language it usually ends in tears.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26172&p=751976&viewfull=1#post751976

gg


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> Nothing to do with gender I repeat for the umteenth time, anyone who acts as she has done would get the same and if a man probably worse so if anything *we've gone easy on her*.




What a load of rubbish.

Criticise Gillard for her policies/actions instead of personal attacks.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Political correctness gone mad. Some people want to give Tim Mathieson the same treatment as the Handbag Brigade gave Tony Abbott. Get a life.
> 
> [video]http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2330185095/Political-correctness-gone-mad[/video]




You could take that exact same speech and subsitiute the words Alan Jones for Tim Mathieson.
A joke in bad taste, so whats the difference except Matheison being the PM's partner should have known better, no let him have it just as bad a Jones got it, in fact worse as he had a greater responsibility..


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> What a load of rubbish.
> 
> Criticise Gillard for her policies/actions instead of personal attacks.




Thats exactly what I do, all her actions are degrading to the office of PM and not too good for our bank balance either.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> You could take that exact same speech and subsitiute the words Alan Jones for Tim Mathieson.
> A joke in bad taste, so whats the difference except Matheison being the PM's partner should have known better, no let him have it just as bad a Jones got it, in fact worse as he had a greater responsibility..




I fail to see why making "a joke in bad taste" should result in the joker being pilloried. Apparently Roxon's war on freedom of speech is becoming acceptable, even among some who claim to be Liberal.


----------



## MrBurns

Why should Jones joke be a hangable offence and Mathiesons harmless fun ?
Labor  hypocrisy  once again


----------



## Aussiejeff

> In a speech to be delivered later today, Ms Gillard will say Labor's record of cutting wasteful spending is already strong, but more will be done.
> 
> "In the lead-up to and in the budget, we will announce substantial new structural savings that will maintain the sustainability of the budget and make room for key Labor priorities," Ms Gillard will say.
> 
> According to excerpts of her speech provided to media outlets, *Ms Gillard will describe the cuts as "tough" and "necessary" as the country adjusts to a low-revenue environment.*



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-30/gillard-to-outline-spending-cuts/4490728

...but, but, but.....Herr Schwann PROMISED us in effect that Oz would be "raking it in" under the wonderful mining boom created by Labour that would last forever. Awwww. Did the bad man lie?


----------



## MrBurns

Aussiejeff said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-30/gillard-to-outline-spending-cuts/4490728
> 
> ...but, but, but.....Herr Schwann PROMISED us in effect that Oz would be "raking it in" under the wonderful mining boom created by Labour that would last forever. Awwww. Did the bad man lie?




What did you expect .......really


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> It was quite funny to see the smile disappear from Ms Gillard's face.  I expect Tim was in for some trouble once they were out of the public eye.




Julia, please clear your mailbox..................


----------



## Julia

Oops, sorry Mr Burns.  Now done.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> Why should *Jones joke *be a hangable offence and Mathiesons harmless fun ?.




Burns, if you are referring to Alan Jones's statement "Julia Gillard's father died of shame", that *was not a joke *it was a f***ing disgrace.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Burns, if you are referring to Alan Jones's statement "Julia Gillard's father died of shame", that *was not a joke *it was a f***ing disgrace.




Nope it was a joke just the same as saying small Asian Women are best at prostrate exams, now THAT'S a disgrace from the clueless partner of the lizard in the Lodge.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> *Nope it was a joke *just the same as saying small Asian Women are best at prostrate exams, now THAT'S a disgrace from the clueless partner of the lizard in the Lodge.




Pigs ****.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Pigs ****.




Your rapier wit leaves me in awe


----------



## Calliope

> NICOLA Roxon has admitted her proposed anti-discrimination laws were poorly drafted, as the government dropped proposals to prohibit offensive conduct.




A pity really. It would have been a vote winner for Abbott. The rest of the bill, however. is still nasty enough to endanger the freedom of speech. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...mination-reforms/story-fn59niix-1226565715477


----------



## drsmith

Crawler across the bottom of the screen on ABC24 during Tony Abbott's speech while he was taking questions from the media.

Craig Thomson's been arrested.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Crawler across the bottom of the screen on ABC24 during Tony Abbott's speech while he was taking questions from the media.
> 
> Craig Thomson's been arrested.




Geez Doc, that will throw the cat among the pigeons. 

All we need is now for Gillard to be arrested over the AWU scandal.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Geez Doc, that will throw the cat among the pigeons.
> 
> All we need is now for Gillard to be arrested over the AWU scandal.



I'm waiting for someone from the press gallery to pose a question to TA about it.

Here we go........


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> Geez Doc, that will throw the cat among the pigeons.
> 
> All we need is now for Gillard to be arrested over the AWU scandal.




One down...two to go... Slipper and Gillard.


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> Crawler across the bottom of the screen on ABC24 during Tony Abbott's speech while he was taking questions from the media.
> 
> Craig Thomson's been arrested.




What if Thomson is convicted before the election?

A bi election might bring on an earlier election before the 14th September, because the Labor Party  would no doubt loose his seat of Dobell..


----------



## drsmith

150 charges. 

That'll keep him busy for a while.


----------



## MrBurns

> Addressing the National Press Club Tony Abbott did not directly comment on the arrest, but said the Thomson saga brought Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s judgement into question.
> “The Thomson matter isn’t just about what Craig Thomson may or may not have done,’’ Mr Abbott said.
> “It is always about the judgement of the prime minister.
> *“The judgement of a prime minister who was running a protection racket for Craig Thomson*





http://www.news.com.au/national/craig-thomson-arrested-by-police/story-fncynjr2-1226565909723


----------



## Calliope

This will be a winner Burnsie; 



> *The judgement of a prime minister who was running a protection racket for Craig Thomson.*




A prime Minister who runs protection rackets for her friends and a former lover. When Gillard gets her comeuppance the whole rotten edifice will come tumbling down


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard will shortly front a press conference according to ABC24.

I assume it will be about Craig Thomson. 

It will be interesting to see if reporters attempt to return to questions about her own activities as a lawyer.


----------



## McLovin

Craig's been arrested.


----------



## Calliope

McLovin said:


> Craig's been arrested.




Thomson (I have complete confidence in Craig Thomson) with the bruisers at last.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> Craig's been arrested.






Calliope said:


> Thomson (I have complete confidence in Craig Thomson) with the bruisers at last.
> 
> View attachment 50704




Looks like he just coped one in the breadbasket, go get him boys


----------



## Ijustnewit

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard will shortly front a press conference according to ABC24.
> 
> I assume it will be about Craig Thomson.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if reporters attempt to return to questions about her own activities as a lawyer.




Yes we are still waiting with baited breath. They have put it back 3 times now , wonder why ? Will be some heavy scrambling and spin going on behind the scenes. Would love to be a fly on the wall. :jump:


----------



## drsmith

Ijustnewit said:


> Yes we are still waiting with baited breath. They have put it back 3 times now , wonder why ? Will be some heavy scrambling and spin going on behind the scenes. Would love to be a fly on the wall. :jump:



The crawler's still saying shortly. The delays do indeed suggest panic under the water.

I think he's currently in court as we post.


----------



## MrBurns

I thought the glasses were just for the election announcement but it seems it's a permanent new look.
What a dumb thing to do as if everyone wouldnt see it's a media/image ploy, really I think shs's flipped:screwy:


----------



## bellenuit

noco said:


> What if Thomson is convicted before the election?
> 
> A bi election might bring on an earlier election before the 14th September, because the Labor Party  would no doubt loose his seat of Dobell..




My understanding from reading some of the letters in the paper today is that if seats become vacant after an election is called, there is no obligation to run a by-election prior to the full election. That may not apply if the PM hasn't yet formally informed the GG that an election is to be called, which is the case here. But obviously, if a seat were to become vacant, Gillard could simply contact the GG to formalise the general election on the date planned, without being seen to be reacting out of fear of a by-election. Perhaps that was part of her motivation, though it would seem unlikely that Thompson's case would be determined before Sept 14th.


----------



## waza1960

> I thought the glasses were just for the election announcement but it seems it's a permanent new look.
> What a dumb thing to do as if everyone wouldnt see it's a media/image ploy, really I think shs's flipped




  Mr Burns I despise Gillard and what she stands for (you know self interest, power at all costs) but maybe she just needs glasses .
    We have more than enough things to criticize her about ,if we stoop to the inconsequential then it devalues our
     relevent criticisms IMO .....
      or maybe I am just dumb and can't see the media ploy lol


----------



## Miss Hale

waza1960 said:


> Mr Burns I despise Gillard and what she stands for (you know self interest, power at all costs) but maybe she just needs glasses .
> We have more than enough things to criticize her about ,if we stoop to the inconsequential then it devalues our
> relevent criticisms IMO .....
> or maybe I am just dumb and can't see the media ploy lol




Yes, I think it's quite likely that she just needs glasses now.  Given she is over 50 it's surprising she hasn't needed reading glasses before now.  She's probably opted for bi-focals so she doesn't have to take them on and off all the time and I think it just coincided with the day of the election announcement.  She could have done without the distraction of appearing in glasses for the first time when announcing the election date but I don't think it was a stunt but more a coincidence she couldn't avoid.  This is based on the theory that she had to announce the election yesterday because of Craig Thompson's imminent arrest. 

What I do think is a bit weird is that they are the same as Hillary Clinton's glasses.  Again, most likely a coincidence but I will never look at those glasses again without thinking 'power women's' glasses, a bit like those massive shoulder pads of the '80s


----------



## MrBurns

waza1960 said:


> Mr Burns I despise Gillard and what she stands for (you know self interest, power at all costs) but maybe she just needs glasses .
> We have more than enough things to criticize her about ,if we stoop to the inconsequential then it devalues our
> relevent criticisms IMO .....
> or maybe I am just dumb and can't see the media ploy lol






Miss Hale said:


> Yes, I think it's quite likely that she just needs glasses now.  Given she is over 50 it's surprising she hasn't needed reading glasses before now.  She's probably opted for bi-focals so she doesn't have to take them on and off all the time and I think it just coincided with the day of the election announcement.  She could have done without the distraction of appearing in glasses for the first time when announcing the election date but I don't think it was a stunt but more a coincidence she couldn't avoid.  This is based on the theory that she had to announce the election yesterday because of Craig Thompson's imminent arrest.
> 
> What I do think is a bit weird is that they are the same as Hillary Clinton's glasses.  Again, most likely a coincidence but I will never look at those glasses again without thinking 'power women's' glasses, a bit like those massive shoulder pads of the '80s




I'm afraid she's got to me so bad I see ulterior motive in everything she does.
I still think it was to clean up her image, make her look more authoritative.


----------



## DB008

McLovin said:


> Craig's been arrested.




\\Conspiracy hat on//

Did Gillard know this was coming today and decided to call the election yesterday?


----------



## Miss Hale

DB008 said:


> \\Conspiracy hat on//
> 
> Did Gillard know this was coming today and decided to call the election yesterday?




Yes, I think so.  Far from this announcement being the cool and calm decision she wants it to appear; sensible planning to hose down speculation etc. I think the evidence points to it being made and announced in haste, the situation with Craig Thomson would explain that.


----------



## Country Lad

DB008 said:


> \\Conspiracy hat on//
> 
> Did Gillard know this was coming today and decided to call the election yesterday?




Unless there is a secret email come to light, we will never know.  It doesn't really matter whether she did or not, the question will be asked often and the electorate will keep it in the back of their mind. 

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## waza1960

> Unless there is a secret email come to light, we will never know. It doesn't really matter whether she did or not, the question will be asked often and the electorate will keep it in the back of their mind.




  My assumption is that this is one of the unhearalded perks of the office of Prime Minister .I reckon the PM would be briefed on everything effecting them before it is made public..


----------



## Calliope

Today when quizzed about Thomson's arrest she claimed ignorance and said she knew nothing except what she had heard on the news. *Another lie... or if not, her media representatives are very slack and should be sacked. * Those members of the press who were on the ball were waiting outside Thomson's house.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Today when quizzed about Thomson's arrest she claimed ignorance and said she knew nothing except what she had heard on the news. *Another lie... or if not, her media representatives are very slack and should be sacked. * Those members of the press who were on the ball were waiting outside Thomson's house.



This was covered in "PM" ABC Radio this evening.  Thomson's lawyer was protesting about the fact that Channel 7 had clearly been tipped off.
Transcript here:http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3680507.htm

This http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news/in-australia/alp-mp-crag-thomson-arrested-on-fraud-charges.htm
includes reference to today's arrest having occurred as a result of Mr Thomson having failed to respond to police request to attend for interview.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

McLovin said:


> Craig's been arrested.






Calliope said:


> Thomson (I have complete confidence in Craig Thomson) with the bruisers at last.
> 
> View attachment 50704






Calliope said:


> Today when quizzed about Thomson's arrest she claimed ignorance and said she knew nothing except what she had heard on the news. *Another lie... or if not, her media representatives are very slack and should be sacked. * Those members of the press who were on the ball were waiting outside Thomson's house.






Julia said:


> This was covered in "PM" ABC Radio this evening.  Thomson's lawyer was protesting about the fact that Channel 7 had clearly been tipped off.
> Transcript here:http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3680507.htm
> 
> This http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news/in-australia/alp-mp-crag-thomson-arrested-on-fraud-charges.htm
> includes reference to today's arrest having occurred as a result of Mr Thomson having failed to respond to police request to attend for interview.




We should all remember that now that Craig Thomson has been charged that he is entitled to the presumption of innocence.

gg


----------



## sptrawler

Garpal Gumnut said:


> We should all remember that now that Craig Thomson has been charged that he is entitled to the presumption of innocence.
> 
> gg




I'm sure Jullia would have informed him of that.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

sptrawler said:


> I'm sure Jullia would have informed him of that.




True spt.

And under Ms.Roxon's new laws none of the matters preceding his charging would have seen the light of day.

gg


----------



## Calliope

Garpal Gumnut said:


> We should all remember that now that Craig Thomson has been charged that he is entitled to the presumption of innocence.




You and Craig Emerson may presume him innocent, but for me that is too much a stretch of the imagination.:headshake


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> You and Craig Emerson may presume him innocent, but for me that is too much a stretch of the imagination.:headshake




Incredible that he still stands up there and tries to play the victim and his lawyer is doing a good job of assisting him.
Do they think the police do this out of spite ? 150 charges of fraud is no traffic ticket.


----------



## barmix

Govt Leader in the Senate Chris Evans has just resigned.


http://www.afr.com/p/national/government_hit_as_evans_resigns_xs9JMZlOYtFW2VGFTuSoKI


----------



## MrBurns

barmix said:


> Govt Leader in the Senate Chris Evans has just resigned.
> 
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/government_hit_as_evans_resigns_xs9JMZlOYtFW2VGFTuSoKI





This is riveting stuff......

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-01/chris-evans-resigns-from-gillard-cabinet/4496986


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

barmix said:


> Govt Leader in the Senate Chris Evans has just resigned.
> 
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/government_hit_as_evans_resigns_xs9JMZlOYtFW2VGFTuSoKI




He has said it was for personal reasons.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> He has said it was for personal reasons.
> 
> gg




yes he probably wants no part in this Govt and I can see his point .


----------



## CanOz

Garpal Gumnut said:


> He has said it was for personal reasons.
> 
> gg





Do you take your laptop to the pub GG?


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> yes he probably wants no part in this Govt and I can see his point .





I thought Garret was the minister for education, oh hang on didn't they try to sack him

Maybe now he will just pick up the slack, it will help the budget bottom line.
Just maybe Evans has some pride and has had enough of this circus, talk about disfunctional government. 
It would be funny if it was a t.v show.
Days of our lives, starring Jullia Gillard, Wayne Swan, Bill Shorten and Greg Combet with supporting actors Nicola Roxon and others that can't be remembered. Background lyrics by Peter Garret ( who would like a starring role).
Well its not that far fetched, it has been going on for five years.


----------



## MrBurns

You are witnessing the usual self destruction of the ALP, make notes for future reference.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> You and Craig Emerson may presume him innocent, but for me that is too much a stretch of the imagination.:headshake






MrBurns said:


> You are witnessing the usual self destruction of the ALP, make notes for future reference.




Listening to the ABC's PM show, one has to wonder what Labor and Craig Thomson's so-called lawyer are on.

Next up on the ABC's PM show was this,

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3681459.htm

One also has to wonder what will result in the bigger crash in the Labor house of cards. Labor pulling one from under Craig Thomson or the other way around.

Perhaps Senator Chris Evans has come to the realisation that not even Jesus Christ can save them now.


----------



## bellenuit

drsmith said:


> Listening to the ABC's PM show, one has to wonder what Labor and Craig Thomson's so-called lawyer are on.




It may be a bit far fetched, but could the plan be to make it look like the police are anti-Labor, so that when they come (hopefully) knocking on Julia's door, she can claim its a political conspiracy to get her.


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> It may be a bit far fetched, but could the plan be to make it look like the police are anti-Labor, so that when they come (hopefully) knocking on Julia's door, she can claim its a political conspiracy to get her.



Labor itself would have to throw in the towel on her leadership before it comes to that, surely.


----------



## Miss Hale

barmix said:


> Govt Leader in the Senate Chris Evans has just resigned.
> 
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/government_hit_as_evans_resigns_xs9JMZlOYtFW2VGFTuSoKI




What next?    Labor imploding


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Listening to the ABC's PM show, one has to wonder what Labor and Craig Thomson's so-called lawyer are on.



I don't think I've ever heard anything like the hysterical performance by Mr McArdle, Thomson's lawyer.  Just weird, almost obscene.



> Next up on the ABC's PM show was this,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3681459.htm
> 
> One also has to wonder what will result in the bigger crash in the Labor house of cards. Labor pulling one from under Craig Thomson or the other way around.
> 
> Perhaps Senator Chris Evans has come to the realisation that not even Jesus Christ can save them now.






barmix said:


> Govt Leader in the Senate Chris Evans has just resigned.



Will he, perhaps, be the first of quite a few sensing disaster ahead, who don't want to be associated with it all?
I don't know anything about Mr Evans' performance in his current portfolio, but in Immigration he was less than useful.


----------



## Miss Hale

Was Evans a Rudd or a Gillard supporter?


----------



## bellenuit

Miss Hale said:


> Was Evans a Rudd or a Gillard supporter?




Gillard according to some tweets I've just read.


----------



## sptrawler

The election is 8 months away, let's not think the government is going to implode this week.
As nice as it sounds, they have riden bad criticism previously and will do so again.
There is nothing stronger, than the feeling the ship is going down, to make them bond together.

The only ones who will feel bad are the ones that don't qualify for a full pension. Don't worry Labor voters Jullia does.

I wonder how the pensions will go if Abbott wins and has a royal commission into unions ?
Would past politicians be dissadvantaged if a criminal prosecution was prosecuted?

This will be reality t.v to the MAX. yeh


----------



## >Apocalypto<

I'm looking forward to the end of the Gilard Government... Raising Super atm is just great for all of us small business owners.. wonder who really put the wheels in to get that through  amazing how many industry super ads you see on atm as well.


----------



## bellenuit

Interesting Tweet from Peter van Onselen (Sky/The Australian):

_No one should think that Chris Evans will be the only resignation from cabinet in the next 24 hours...I assure you._


----------



## sptrawler

>Apocalypto< said:


> I'm looking forward to the end of the Gilard Government... Raising Super atm is just great for all of us small business owners.. wonder who really put the wheels in to get that through  amazing how many industry super ads you see on atm as well.




They want to look after your money, hey it's a job after losing government.


----------



## Miss Hale

bellenuit said:


> Gillard according to some tweets I've just read.




Thanks.  Curioser and curioser


----------



## bellenuit

There are tweets saying Roxon is resigning. Supposedly from Sky. Not sure if genuine.


----------



## bellenuit

Peter van Onselen is tweeting that Roxon will not contest next election. Others, without naming sources, are saying she will resign tomorrow.


----------



## bellenuit

bellenuit said:


> Peter van Onselen is tweeting that Roxon will not contest next election. Others, without naming sources, are saying she will resign tomorrow.




Peter van Onselen is also saying Roxon will resign tomorrow. 

(IMO - Presumably just from cabinet) .


----------



## drsmith

What's that stalking Julia Gillard from behind, again ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ded-intimidation/story-fn59niix-1226566731327

Oh no! 

It's Uncle Psychopath.


----------



## sptrawler

bellenuit said:


> Peter van Onselen is tweeting that Roxon will not contest next election. Others, without naming sources, are saying she will resign tomorrow.




Well that would be welcomed. From personal experience, she has done nothing to help. Wish I could write what I really want to say. 
Some people I have overheard say they have had problems recieving help once they attain work of any kind, some have said they get three days work and they lose access to the government hearing aid system.
Absolutely no loss whatsoever, good riddance, just another non event in political history.


----------



## Miss Hale

I can't see Roxon resigning, not even just from cabinet, this has to be scuttlebut surely


----------



## drsmith

Roxon to fall.



> Attorney-General Nicola Roxon and Senate leader Chris Evans are reportedly set to stand down from Prime Minister Julia Gillard's Cabinet.
> 
> The shock revelations come just two days after the Prime Minister announced the federal election would take place on September 14.
> 
> Sky News is reporting that Mark Dreyfus, who is currently the Parliamentary Secretary for Industry and Innovation, will assume the position of Attorney-General.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-01/chris-evans-resigns-from-gillard-cabinet/4496986

The wheels are coming off now.



> ALP vice-president Tony Sheldon has launched a ferocious attack on the political and moral crisis inside Labor and the toxicity of its most powerful faction, saying only a ground-up change of culture can restore its fortunes.
> 
> Speaking just days after Julia Gillard set September 14 as the election date and as Labor battles twin scandals in NSW, Mr Sheldon said the party faced a "catastrophic situation", with its brand damaged by a failure to focus on what matters to members and supporters.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ent-tony-sheldon/story-fn59niix-1226567132990


----------



## bellenuit

_It also emerged last night that Robert McClelland, who Ms Gillard sacked as attorney-general, is being considered for a judicial post by the state government.

An appointment of Mr McClelland to the bench could spark a by-election in his southern Sydney seat of Barton if he took up the post before September.

Before this week it would have added to the fears of a by-election bringing down the government, with suspended former Labor MP Craig Thomson and former speaker Peter Slipper both facing criminal charges and also considered potential early retirees.

Ms Gillard's early announcement of the election date, however, may have quarantined the government from collapse._

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...is-evans-resigns/story-e6freuy9-1226567059223


----------



## Julia

Roxon's resignation confirmed.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-01/chris-evans-resigns-from-gillard-cabinet/4496986


----------



## wayneL

Julia said:


> Roxon's resignation confirmed.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-01/chris-evans-resigns-from-gillard-cabinet/4496986




There is a God!


----------



## MrBurns

Wow Laurie Oakes and all the other journos will be in overdrive
Bloody typical isn't it another labor govt self destructs in front of an entire nation
I'm not at all happy that our system allows people of such low character into high office


----------



## IFocus

MrBurns said:


> I'm not at all happy that our system allows people of such low character into high office




Yes you have got to wonder how Abbott gets elected don't you?


----------



## white_goodman

IFocus said:


> Yes you have got to wonder how Abbott gets elected don't you?




your girls in office and you spend 99% of your time focused on opposition leader Abbott, says it all really..


----------



## Country Lad

Well there you go, another kick in the guts for small business, Swan as godfather.


_



			"Small Business is tipped to stay in Cabinet and some believe Treasurer Wayne Swan should add that portfolio to his job to elevate the importance of the sector ahead of the election."
		
Click to expand...


_
Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Calliope

Emerson says Roxon is leaving politics to concentrate on her eight year-old daughter...poor little kid.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Emerson says Roxon is leaving politics to concentrate on her eight year-old daughter...poor little kid.
> 
> View attachment 50750




Emerson is an idiot just no brain there at all and we pay his salary


----------



## Miss Hale

Miss Hale said:


> I can't see Roxon resigning, not even just from cabinet, this has to be scuttlebut surely




I was wrong. This is worse than I thought 

I see they've trotted out 'family reasons' for both resignations. Except in rare circumstances this is just an excuse for something else, like rats deserting a sinking ship


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> I was wrong. This is worse than I thought
> 
> I see they've trotted out 'family reasons' for both resignations. Except in rare circumstances this is just an excuse for something else, like rats deserting a sinking ship




I understand that she is resigning in a hissy-fit after being rolled on her draconian anti-Discrimination laws.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Yes you have got to wonder how Abbott gets elected don't you?




IFocus........you still haven't told us whether you're going to vote for this rabble called the ALP.

You've publicly admitted they're incompetent. So are you going to vote for an incompetent government?


----------



## noco

Well for a start Mr Sheldon, perhaps you will have to educate the next Labor Generation to move away from Socialism (some will call it Communism) and the Green movements which IS a front for communism.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ent-tony-sheldon/story-fn59niix-1226567132990


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

drsmith said:


> What's that stalking Julia Gillard from behind, again ?
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ded-intimidation/story-fn59niix-1226566731327
> 
> Oh no!
> 
> It's Uncle Psychopath.




This has to be post of the year.

lol

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

wayneL said:


> There is a God!




There is indeed.

Matthew 13:42

gg


----------



## Miss Hale

It seems a parliamentary secetary has resigned too; Justine Elliot, Parlimentary Secretary for Trade, due to a conflict of interest over Coal Seam Gas .  Makes a change from family reasons I suppose 

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## Boggo

To help save the economy, the government will announce next month that the immigration department will start deporting OAPs instead of illegal immigrants in order to reduce state pension, NHS, bus passes and home care costs.

They reckon that older people are easier to catch, make less fuss, and will not remember how to get back home.


----------



## Calliope

Lying comes so naturally to Gillard that no one queries it any more.



> She said the reshuffle was a "long-planned announcement" and that Ms Roxon and Senator Evans had come to her 12 months ago and discussed leaving politics.


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> Lying comes so naturally to Gillard that no one queries it any more.




Chris Pyne made a valid point when interviewed today. 12 months ago Roxon had just been appointed AG 1 month before, so why would she be discussing quitting politics then.


----------



## Miss Hale

bellenuit said:


> Chris Pyne made a valid point when interviewed today. 12 months ago Roxon had just been appointed AG 1 month before, so why would she be discussing quitting politics then.




That's exactly what occured to me when I heard what Gillard said, Roxon has barely been in the job a year!  

Did anyone else notice the weeping? Please, spare us the tears Julia, it doesn't add to your credibility


----------



## Calliope

As a tribute to her and as a further deterrent to smokers Ms Roxon's head will now appear on all tobacco products.



> The PM paid tribute to Ms Roxon's fearless take on big tobacco.
> 
> Ms Roxon won international recognition for taking on big tobacco and driving Australia's world-leading packaging laws, the PM said.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Well for a start Mr Sheldon, perhaps you will have to educate the next Labor Generation to move away from Socialism (some will call it Communism) and the Green movements which IS a front for communism.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ent-tony-sheldon/story-fn59niix-1226567132990




Would that be the same Mr Sheldon that was going to rub Allan Joyce's nose in it, during the Qantas dispute?
If it is, I hope he better educates himself before joining parliament through the union chute.
He will blow his feet off very quickly.IMO


----------



## So_Cynical

Quite incredible, politicians decide to move on as people in all walks of life do and yet somehow this is warped into something else, tears become somehow not tears, emotions and expressions are somehow twisted into something sinister.

What sick people you are....seriously have a good look at yourself's.


----------



## noco

So_Cynical said:


> Quite incredible, politicians decide to move on as people in all walks of life do and yet somehow this is warped into something else, tears become somehow not tears, emotions and expressions are somehow twisted into something sinister.
> 
> What sick people you are....seriously have a good look at yourself's.





History repeats itself with the Labor Party, hidden agenda and lies are very rarely proven, but one can always read between the lines and come up with one's own conclusions.


----------



## MrBurns

So_Cynical said:


> Quite incredible, politicians decide to move on as people in all walks of life do and yet somehow this is warped into something else, tears become somehow not tears, emotions and expressions are somehow twisted into something sinister.
> What sick people you are....seriously have a good look at yourself's.




Some people believed Gillard when she said no carbon tax
Kevin Rudd believed he had her support
Some people believe a PM shouldnt support people like Slipper snd Thompson
Some people believe crocodile tears

Some people still believe she's ok, seriously they should have a good look at themselves.


----------



## Calliope

So_Cynical said:


> What sick people you are....seriously have a good look at *yourself's.*




I think you mean "yourselves."

Sloppy spelling equates to sloppy thinking.


----------



## MrBurns

> The Federal Government has indicated it will not continue funding the high school laptop program for years 9 to 12 students.
> 
> Almost 1 million computers have been issued since 2008 as part of Labor's Digital Education Revolution, but funding for the scheme is set to run out in June 2013.
> 
> Year 9 students will still receive their laptops at the start of the school year.
> 
> Federal School Education Minister Peter Garrett says the Government provided the upfront investment and the states must now pay their fair share




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-02/federal-government-likely-to-dump-schoo-laptops/4497572

The end of another BS promise intended to last only long enough to push Gillard in the polls.


----------



## drsmith

I think with the glasses she is trying to appear like John Howard.

The frames are obviously new, but did she pay Johnny a visit for the lenses ?

If so, he saw her off with a couple of coke bottle bottoms judging by the past week.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

drsmith said:


> I think with the glasses she is trying to appear like John Howard.
> 
> The frames are obviously new, but did she pay Johnny a visit for the lenses ?
> 
> If so, he saw her off with a couple of coke bottle bottoms judging by the past week.




I shall be keeping a *very* close eye on her eyebrows between now and the election.

gg


----------



## drsmith

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I shall be keeping a *very* close eye on her eyebrows between now and the election.
> 
> gg



By then she'll be able to do away with the hair colour altogether and just have it cut short.


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> I think with the glasses she is trying to appear like John Howard...



Hillary Clinton more like. The frames look identical. All the same, I think they soften the PMs image.


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> As a tribute to her and as a further deterrent to smokers Ms Roxon's head will now appear on all tobacco products.



Now now. More generally, if you think of all the lurks and perks and allowances down the years, Parental Leave, Parliamentary creche and all the rest of it, the taxpayer has a fair bit invested in an experienced politician like Nicola Roxon. The premise is to 'keep talented women in the workforce'.  Labor voters might wonder what it was all for.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> IFocus........you still haven't told us whether you're going to vote for this rabble called the ALP.
> 
> You've publicly admitted they're incompetent. So are you going to vote for an incompetent government?




Actually I said that Labor were politicly incompetent which they certainly have been and will lose the next election as a result.

One thing is for certain I will not be voting for one of the biggest bunch of buffoons currently sitting on the opposition front benches, tell me Bunyip who in that crowd has real talent.............Abbott who cannot leave a script during an interview?

How about Hockey shadow treasurer the man cannot add up, lets try Bishop shadow minister for foreign affairs some one who ran away after blowing up trying to run a failed smear campaign.

These threads have certainly brought out the emotional side of the Coalition backers but really very little else to substantiate a claim for government.   

Abbott has already declared war on the lower wage earners and is going to hurt them I think its a travesty that many here think thats a good thing.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Actually I said that Labor were politicly incompetent which they certainly have been and will lose the next election as a result.
> 
> One thing is for certain I will not be voting for one of the biggest bunch of buffoons currently sitting on the opposition front benches, tell me Bunyip who in that crowd has real talent.............Abbott who cannot leave a script during an interview?



I think you're confusing political incompetency with a deep rooted moral destitution that extends all the way to the top. Had this government been politicly incompetent, it would have fallen long ago.

That though still leaves the question of whom you are going to vote for ?

The Greens ?

The Sex Party ?


----------



## drsmith

Craig Thomson gets his day in court to, as he would say, to clear his name, but only after the Coalition steps up to the plate.



> Manager of opposition business Christopher Pyne said yesterday the Coalition was prepared to offer Mr Thomson a pair so he could attend court.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...on-fraud-charges/story-e6frf7kx-1226567427152

It also seems that Craig doesn't mind being a little naughty when it comes to road rules.



> While on the F3 he was observed on numerous occasions holding his mobile phone to his right ear while driving.
> 
> He was also observed changing lanes without indicating several times during the trip, while keeping the phone to his ear.
> 
> The Daily Telegraph was behind Mr Thomson at Wahroonga when he turned left on to the Pacific Highway, through a red light.
> 
> He ran a second red light about 20 minutes later as he turned left into Berry St at North Sydney.




http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...drama-to-another/story-fndo1sdf-1226567076507


----------



## Macquack

That is a very flimsy story by the Daily Telegraph.



> "The Daily Telegraph observed Mr Thomson using his handheld mobile phone while driving, *as well as running a red light on two separate occasions*."
> 
> "When The Daily Telegraph, *which obeyed the road rules throughout*, approached Mr Thomson's car when he pulled over at Artarmon to ask him why he was using a handheld phone while driving, he refused to respond."



How did the Daily Telegraph paparrazi (without speeding) keep up with Thomson if he ran two red lights?

Dr Smith, you used to be an objective observer but your standards are slipping posting crap like that.


----------



## drsmith

Macquack said:


> That is a very flimsy story by the Daily Telegraph.



Are you saying he was not driving the car at the time even though the media outlet said he was ?


----------



## Miss Hale

Macquack said:


> That is a very flimsy story by the Daily Telegraph.
> 
> How did the Daily Telegraph paparrazi (without speeding) keep up with Thomson if he ran two red lights?




Have you never had a driver tear past you and run a red light only to catch up with them at the next set of lights?


----------



## Macquack

What I am saying is "don't believe everything you read".

The photo of Thomson was probably taken while he was in his driveway (I don't think that is a crime).


----------



## sptrawler

Another absolute stuff up on its way, the replacement of the promissed laptops that are now broken or obsolute.
I find it amazing that they are paying $1300 for laptops and an allowance of $1500 for maintenance. No wonder it has cost $2.4 billion dollars so far.
Have they lost the plot? Or what!

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/computer-cash-in-lap-of-chaos-20130202-2dr65.html


----------



## Macquack

Miss Hale said:


> Have you never had a driver tear past you and run a red light only to catch up with them at the next set of lights?




If you chose to believe the paparrazi obey all the road rules, then you are naive.


----------



## drsmith

Macquack said:


> What I am saying is "don't believe everything you read".
> 
> The photo of Thomson was probably taken while he was in his driveway (I don't think that is a crime).




I understand what you are saying in how the media can sometimes wrongly use an image that does not relate directly to the story for effect, although the caption under that one about where he was and what he was doing when it was taken was explicit. 



> Craig Thomson drives along the F3 while talking on his phone. Source: The Daily Telegraph




In any case, I doubt they have made the entire story up.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> ... the taxpayer has a fair bit invested in an experienced politician like Nicola Roxon. .




The Tim Mathieson (prostate-gate) knockers will be sorry to see her go.



> TIM Mathieson owes us all an apology. He should apologise for apologising for his remarks about prostate cancer this week.
> 
> *Instead of apologising, what Tim Mathieson should have done was make like a tiny-handed Asian lady bum doctor and lift a defiant middle finger in the direction of the narcs, whiners, screwed-up ideologues and craven opportunists who felt or feigned such burning indignation at his completely innocent little gag.*
> 
> I am still trying to work out who was meant to be offended by his remark. Was it Asians? Was it women? Was it people with small hands? Was he making a slight against the big-handed - apologies in advance to any sufferers of gigantism who might be reading this - or was he poking fun, so to speak, at those many men who have had to suffer the ignominy of an Ansell-gloved digit up the date?



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion...or-that-im-sorry/story-e6frfhqf-1226567378260


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Another absolute stuff up on its way, the replacement of the promissed laptops that are now broken or obsolute.
> I find it amazing that they are paying $1300 for laptops and an allowance of $1500 for maintenance. No wonder it has cost $2.4 billion dollars so far.
> Have they lost the plot? Or what!
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/computer-cash-in-lap-of-chaos-20130202-2dr65.html



Another case of a government trying to be Father Christmas. It doesn't work.


----------



## Miss Hale

Macquack said:


> If you chose to believe the paparrazi obey all the road rules, then you are naive.




Where do I say I believe the paparrazi obey all the road rules?  Just pointing out that what they reported could have been observed without speeding.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Actually I said that Labor were politicly incompetent which they certainly have been and will lose the next election as a result.
> 
> One thing is for certain I will not be voting for one of the biggest bunch of buffoons currently sitting on the opposition front benches, tell me Bunyip who in that crowd has real talent.............Abbott who cannot leave a script during an interview?
> 
> How about Hockey shadow treasurer the man cannot add up, lets try Bishop shadow minister for foreign affairs some one who ran away after blowing up trying to run a failed smear campaign.
> 
> These threads have certainly brought out the emotional side of the Coalition backers but really very little else to substantiate a claim for government.
> 
> Abbott has already declared war on the lower wage earners and is going to hurt them I think its a travesty that many here think thats a good thing.




You still haven't told us whether you're going to vote for this rabble called the ALP. Pretty simple question.....either you're going to vote for them or you're not going to vote for them.


----------



## sails

bunyip said:


> You still haven't told us whether you're going to vote for this rabble called the ALP. Pretty simple question.....either you're going to vote for them or you're not going to vote for them.





He'll still very likely vote for this rabble again, imo.  He's gone to a lot of trouble to try and make the coalition look worse than his own rabble which means he is probably trying desperately to justify his voting intentions for the rabble...


----------



## ChrisJH

sptrawler said:


> Another absolute stuff up on its way, the replacement of the promissed laptops that are now broken or obsolute.
> I find it amazing that they are paying $1300 for laptops and an allowance of $1500 for maintenance. No wonder it has cost $2.4 billion dollars so far.
> Have they lost the plot? Or what!
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/computer-cash-in-lap-of-chaos-20130202-2dr65.html




That 1,500 for maintenance is ridiculous. I don't even comprehend how they can figure that. Do they just decide the need to subsidise an industry X amount of dollars, and throw it at them? Wish I could pick a school or two and offer my services for laptop maintenance, I'd be able to retire now.

The whole thing is a sham IMO anyway; all kids do on these things is play games on them anyway. They don't need a personal school laptop to keep them up to scratch with technology, they have it every where else anyway, possibly a few laptops or devices at home that they aren't allowed to use at school anyway, the money would be much better invested in... education... and... teaching kids things.


----------



## Miss Hale

ChrisJH said:


> That 1,500 for maintenance is ridiculous. I don't even comprehend how they can figure that. Do they just decide the need to subsidise an industry X amount of dollars, and throw it at them? Wish I could pick a school or two and offer my services for laptop maintenance, I'd be able to retire now.




Reminds me of that allowance for pensioners for set top boxes. How much was it again? $350 or something like that?  I bought a new one a couple of years ago and it cost me the grand total of $20!!!  As for installation costs, you don't need someone to install it, you just plug a few things in!


----------



## Country Lad

Miss Hale said:


> Reminds me of that allowance for pensioners for set top boxes. How much was it again? $350 or something like that?




Actually, even that average amount was short of the mark. There were a huge number of pensioners who could receive the analogue system OK but when it came to digital, they could not get the signal.  My sister was an example.  

So, the procedure was to call the appropriate antenna expert (government paid) who came out and spent time assessing the signal (government paid). 

If the signal was not strong enough for a consistently good picture on all of the channels the antenna expert (who had an interest in the signal not being good enough) returns with a satellite dish (government paid), decoder (government paid) and cabling (government paid) took the time to install all that, and test it all worked (government paid) and takes the time to show them how it all works (government paid).

That's why the high average cost - there was a huge amount of pensioners not being able to receive digital, particularly in regional areas where the analogue signal, which were re-transmitted from satellite by the Councils, was not going to be replaced by digital.

It should have been called the satellite subsidy instead of the set top box subsidy because that is where the costs blew out.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## sptrawler

ChrisJH said:


> That 1,500 for maintenance is ridiculous. I don't even comprehend how they can figure that. Do they just decide the need to subsidise an industry X amount of dollars, and throw it at them? Wish I could pick a school or two and offer my services for laptop maintenance, I'd be able to retire now.
> 
> The whole thing is a sham IMO anyway; all kids do on these things is play games on them anyway. They don't need a personal school laptop to keep them up to scratch with technology, they have it every where else anyway, possibly a few laptops or devices at home that they aren't allowed to use at school anyway, the money would be much better invested in... education... and... teaching kids things.




Agree, It blew me away when I saw they were paying $1300 for a laptop. That would be a bulk price to government. 
Just absolutely stupid, the universities are saying kids are finishing high school with appalling english skills. Talk about poor prioritising, this goon show has a great track record for that.
If a student is learning Mathematics, English, Physics, Chemistry, History. Where do they fit the time in for play on the laptop, school excursions to the snow fields, student free days.
Somethings got to give, it appears it has been the academic tasks, wonder why our kids rank poorly.
Shame they're not tested on computer gamming skills and mobile phone operation. We would be world leaders.IMO
No have a commitee formed to make report of what everyone knows.


----------



## MrBurns

I'd be suprised if they go full term now, it's getting so bad the Govenor General should get ready to step in.

Anyone who supports this mob now is seriously ignorant.


----------



## sptrawler

This shows how out of touch with mainstream Australia, Labor are.
They find Pynes comment, that Labor are unravelling like the Third Riech offensive and want an appology.
Yet they all sit back with stupid grins on their faces, while their leader dumps a bucket of nasty, personal, untrue crap on Abbott.
What planet are they on, they obviously have completely lost touch with the electorate.
The analogy of them with Hitler, is fair comment as they enact policy without letting voters have a say.
Gillards slagging off at Abbott was nothing but a cheap shot for publicity on the world stage.
It is indeed becoming farcical and even their own ranks must be feeling sick at the fiasco.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...ks-offensive-dreyfus-says-20130203-2dsat.html

Obviously Dreyfus isn't going to be an assett, what a goose. 
He even bagged Abbott last year using a Hitler reference. No doubt he will feel Gillards wrath this week. She must be already cringing and thinking, come back Nicola, this ones an idiot.

The goon show moves on, unfortunately.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> You still haven't told us whether you're going to vote for this rabble called the ALP. Pretty simple question.....either you're going to vote for them or you're not going to vote for them.





Actually I have but you have think beyond Abbott slogans.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> What planet are they on, they obviously have completely lost touch with the electorate.
> *The analogy of them with Hitler, is fair comment *as they enact policy without letting voters have a say.
> Gillards slagging off at Abbott was nothing but a cheap shot for publicity on the world stage.
> It is indeed becoming farcical and even their own ranks must be feeling sick at the fiasco.




Have a think about that again.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Have a think about that again.





In a word "No", Hitler was a dictator that enacted decissions as he saw fit, without putting it to the populace.

Isn't that what Gillard did? 
Actually no, not only did she not put it to the populace, she reassured them it wouldn't happen.

I'm not debating the right or wrong of the tax, just the way it was enacted by deception.

Sometimes people have to be brought to account for their distain of the people they represent.
It happened to Howard when he tried shoving 'work choices down peoples throats'

Well to me the same distain has been displayed by shoving the 'carbon tax down peoples throats'.
At least Howard took it to an election and put his neck on the line, which showed some honesty.
Hey, only my thoughts.
Oh yes IFocus, what part should I think about again?


----------



## Calliope

Julia and Tim remind me of Adolph and Eva in the bunker scenes in "Downfall." It will be interesting to see if they get married before their world caves in.


----------



## MrBurns




----------



## MrBurns

Newspoll a disaster for Gillard



> LABOR support has slumped back to levels seen at the end of last year and Tony Abbott has surged against Julia Gillard as the nation's preferred prime minister after the start of the record-breaking seven-month election campaign was marked by chaos and confusion in government ranks.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rd-more-bad-news/story-fn59niix-1226567758147


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> Newspoll a disaster for Gillard
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rd-more-bad-news/story-fn59niix-1226567758147




Well maybe now she has called an election people are saying what they really feel. Pi$$ed off.


----------



## drsmith

More about to jump over the side ?



> It was revealed last night that the Victorian branch of the ALP is expected to delay the search for a replacement for former attorney-general Nicola Roxon in the Melbourne seat of Gellibrand in case other ministers or backbenchers also resign.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-starts-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226568212251


----------



## wayneL

I am gathering material to create a complimentary thesis to add to my current PhD thesis "The Impossibility of Objectivity in Leftist Thought".

It is the be titled "The Gormless and Astonishingly Monumental Hypocrisy of Leftists". It will examine how the once subtle and clever, if not duplicitous hypocrisy of Leftists has transmogrified into the asinine, petty, puerile pea-brained and nauseatingly obvious hypocrisy we are subjected to these days.

I mean, check this out: from http://www.news.com.au/national/fed...tion-galaxy-poll/story-fndo4dzn-1226567740321



> Coalition frontbencher Christopher Pyne came under fire after he said the Government was unravelling and compared it to a movie about the final days of Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany.
> 
> "The Government is starting to resemble a scene from Downfall and the Prime Minister is presiding over a divided and dysfunctional government," he said.
> 
> New Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus, *who once compared Mr Abbott to Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels, *called on Mr Pyne to apologise for his immature comment.




...and check out the comments in this article: http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/you-can-stick-your-apology-up-your-bum/ I wholeheartedly agree with the tenet of the article, but the comments of the lame-witted leftist numbskulls are so petulantly and unintelligently hypocritical that I can scarcely believe that they are made by people of a mental age greater than 3 1/2.

Sheesh there is so much material I better get working.


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> Newspoll a disaster for Gillard
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rd-more-bad-news/story-fn59niix-1226567758147




So Newspoll have caught up with the rest of the country. Their January poll was widely scoffed at. 



> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rd-more-bad-news/story-fn59niix-1226567758147
> The Newspoll survey... is a complete reversal of fortune for the ALP from the summer-holiday affected January poll...


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Actually I have but you have think beyond Abbott slogans.




I must have missed it then. So tell us again, are you going to vote for the ALP rabble?


----------



## bunyip

MrBurns said:


> I'd be suprised if they go full term now, it's getting so bad the Govenor General should get ready to step in.
> 
> Anyone who supports this mob now is seriously ignorant.




Not much chance of the GG stepping in when Bill Shorten is her son in law!


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> Not much chance of the GG stepping in when Bill Shorten is her son in law!




Well maybe the Queen should sack her first and put Rudd in as GG


----------



## bunyip

sptrawler said:


> Another absolute stuff up on its way, the replacement of the promissed laptops that are now broken or obsolute.
> I find it amazing that they are paying $1300 for laptops and an allowance of $1500 for maintenance. No wonder it has cost $2.4 billion dollars so far.
> Have they lost the plot? Or what!
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/computer-cash-in-lap-of-chaos-20130202-2dr65.html





Yes, this government has lost the plot all right.....it lost the plot almost from the first day it *wasn’t elected*, but was put in by those two independent ratbags Windsor and Oakshot. 

Pink bats.....lost the plot.
Cash handouts.....lost the plot.
Scrapping the solar hot water rebate.....lost the plot.
Building the education revolution.....lost the plot.
Mining tax....lost the plot.
Illegal immigrants.....lost the plot.
Carbon tax.....lost the plot.
Blowing an inherited budget surplus and putting us massively in debt....lost the plot.

And that’s just a small sample of their dozens of stuff ups. 
As Peter Costello said - "Everything that Labor does turns to dust". 

Anyone who attempts to vote them back into power has lost the plot as well.


----------



## bunyip

MrBurns said:


> Well maybe the Queen should sack her first and put Rudd in as GG




Better still we should do away with the position of Governor General altogether. The GG is nothing more than a money-wasting figurehead that costs us many millions of dollars each year for no benefit to our country.


----------



## explod

Very strange, find myself in agreement with just about everyone this morning.

Current Government and system dysfunctional.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> I don't think I've ever heard anything like the hysterical performance by Mr McArdle, Thomson's lawyer.  Just weird, almost obscene.



The conclusion I've reached is that more than anything else, he's a public political mouthpiece for the preservation of the current government.

It's obvious where Craig Thomson's friends in Labor will leave him when he's no longer of use to the party.


----------



## explod

drsmith said:


> The conclusion I've reached is that more than anything else, he's a public political mouthpiece for the preservation of the current government.
> 
> It's obvious what Craig Thomson's friends in Labor will leave him when he's no longer of use to the party.




Will be interesting as it all unfolds and people are put into corners on this matter.  Remember an ALP politician resigned and departed (name escapes, Abibe or similar) a year or so back who was very successful in buying and selling real estate.  My old senses tell me that what we see now is just the beginning of one helluva bust up of the ALP.

The politicians of today joined it for a career, in my young days they joined it to represent constituents and out of concern to improve the lot of their fellows/humankind.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


>




The serve it gives Wayne Swan is brilliant.

This movie scene has really become the video equivalent to the fat lady in full voice.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The serve it gives Wayne Swan is brilliant.
> 
> This movie scene has really become the video equivalent to the fat lady in full voice.




Don't know if you watched the whole thing but i almost chocked I laughed that hard.



> Would all those who intend to resign please leave the room



........room empties, I was in stitches.


----------



## drsmith

I've watched the whole thing, more than once.


----------



## explod

Goodness, the mindless propaganda permeated by all and sundry and clapped at by most ASF members does not cease to amaze.

I am not an ALP fan by any stretch but the social decay of society, its acceptance of statements without content or facts is astounding.

There are complaints about input volume to the ASF stock threads, but due to a few mindless radical( talk about the left, what about the extreme far right) politico's the discussion threads are going to die also.

Wish you all well with whatever you finish up in guvernmintation, but my life will be okay up here in the bush vegie patch.  I feel downcast for ordinary people.


----------



## MrBurns

New topic on the Drum, go over, register and give'm a blast.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-04/carabine-unsettling-start-to-the-year-for-labor/4499420


----------



## basilio

Many of the Hitler parodies are just brilliant. Clever, biting , hystericial.  The Labour parody is very good!! (All BS but still funny..)

Now lets see what we can do with an Abbott storyline ...

I liked this little parody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w-PI2vCA9ck#!


----------



## CanOz

explod said:


> Goodness, the mindless propaganda permeated by all and sundry and clapped at by most ASF members does not cease to amaze.
> 
> I am not an ALP fan by any stretch but the social decay of society, its acceptance of statements without content or facts is astounding.
> 
> There are complaints about input volume to the ASF stock threads, but due to a few mindless radical( talk about the left, what about the extreme far right) politico's the discussion threads are going to die also.
> 
> Wish you all well with whatever you finish up in guvernmintation, but my life will be okay up here in the bush vegie patch.  I feel downcast for ordinary people.




What, you don't like APF...Aussie Political Forums?


----------



## chiff

Too many malicious malcontents on the political forums!
Interesting academic  study done in the US and in Australia exploring why some people are on the right or left.
Briefly what it found was those on the right were more fearful  about the world and events and those on the left were more relaxed.


----------



## MrBurns

chiff said:


> Too many malicious malcontents on the political forums!
> Interesting academic  study done in the US and in Australia exploring why some people are on the right or left.
> Briefly what it found was those on the right were more fearful  about the world and events and those on the left were more relaxed.




Exactly those on the right employ people and achieve things so are more aware of the world around them while those on the left just take whatever freebies they can get and smoke dope all day...........very relaxed.


----------



## drsmith

chiff said:


> Interesting academic  study done in the US and in Australia exploring why some people are on the right or left.
> Briefly what it found was those on the right were more fearful  about the world and events and those on the left were more relaxed.



the right are right to be fearful.

The left spend all their wealth until there's nothing left.


----------



## Logique

How predictable Chas the luvvies are at The Project. 

From all the political upheavals of the last few days, what story did they distill for last night's show? Poor Nicola, we've got to find a way to keep women in the workforce!  

For information of The Project (and Anne Summers), more men than women have raised kids while parliamentarians, and 'poor Nicola' is resigning voluntarily. This despite receiving the inside track to become Attorney-General, and having hoovered up all the childcare perks, allowances and tax rebates specifically designed to keep her in the workforce. 

Where is the return on the taxpayers considerable investment in Nicola Roxon?  

And to Head Luvvie Chas, the AbbottAbbottAbbott might come on to your show, just as soon as Emerson and Gillard front up to The Bolt Report.


----------



## MrBurns

And the ABC Labor support team bursts into action with the top story being Al Gore says Gillard is good and Abbotts plan wont work. Al Gore who's home used 20 times the national average for energy comsumption before he had to change things to protect his image.


----------



## DocK

Logique said:


> How predictable Chas the luvvies are at The Project.
> 
> From all the political upheavals of the last few days, what story did they distill for last night's show? Poor Nicola, we've got to find a way to keep women in the workforce!
> 
> For information of The Project (and Anne Summers), more men than women have raised kids while parliamentarians, and 'poor Nicola' is resigning voluntarily. This despite receiving the inside track to become Attorney-General, and having hoovered up all the childcare perks, allowances and tax rebates specifically designed to keep her in the workforce.
> 
> Where is the return on the taxpayers considerable investment in Nicola Roxon?
> 
> And to Head Luvvie Chas, the AbbottAbbottAbbott might come on to your show, just as soon as Emerson and Gillard front up to The Bolt Report.




Our household used to watch "The Project" for our daily serve of news as we thought the more lighthearted approach would appeal to our teenagers.  Instead, our kids informed us they'd rather watch the news on another channel than listen to their parents making idiots of themselves by yelling at the telly   The political bias on that show is certainly all in one direction, and absolutely blatant.


----------



## drsmith

It would appear the politics is not above a little insider betting.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...-of-mystery-bets/story-fndo317g-1226570342480


----------



## Logique

http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...Australian-Federal-Election-2013/14-3668.html
*Australian Federal Election 2013/14*  13:30 | Tuesday 03/12/2013


----------



## dutchie

The ALP's election slogan should be..

"Our incompetence is Tony Abbott's fault"


----------



## dutchie

A little birdie tells me, that since he is now the leader of the senate, Stephen Conroy will make all senators wear red underpants on their heads during sittings of the senate.

When asked why is he doing this he replied "Because I can!"

He, of course, as leader, will not have to wear red underpants. However he affirmed that he had not ruled out wearing black lacy ones, to help distinguish himself as "head cocky" to the public gallery.


----------



## MrBurns

This Govt must be in it's final days the stench of corruption and incompetance must have an effect soon, now they're tied in with Obeid, can it get any worse ?


----------



## sptrawler

Tony Windsor must have worked out the only way he has a hope in hell of retaining his seat, is if Labor get back in.
He is pushing hard to have Abbott replaced, with an easier target.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...malcolm-turnbull/story-fncyva0b-1226571134700

Funny he says Australia is unhappy with Gillard and Abbott, but he only suggests Abbott be replaced, Windsor should just start clearing out his office.


----------



## Ijustnewit

MrBurns said:


> This Govt must be in it's final days the stench of corruption and incompetance must have an effect soon, now they're tied in with Obeid, can it get any worse ?




Conroy , Burke stayed at Eddie Obeid's Ski Lodge more below

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/02/05/21/00/fed-ministers-stayed-at-obeid-lodge


----------



## Miss Hale

sptrawler said:


> Tony Windsor must have worked out the only way he has a hope in hell of retaining his seat, is if Labor get back in.
> He is pushing hard to have Abbott replaced, with an easier target.
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...malcolm-turnbull/story-fncyva0b-1226571134700
> 
> Funny he says Australia is unhappy with Gillard and Abbott, but he only suggests Abbott be replaced, Windsor should just start clearing out his office.




I've said it before and I'll say it again, this guy is a bumbling fool, can't wait to see the back of him.


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, this guy is a bumbling fool, can't wait to see the back of him.



He is also malicious!


----------



## drsmith

Tony Windsor won't run again. He's just putting on a brave face in the hope that the Gillard government he supports can hang on until her announced election date.

He drscribes the current difficulties facing Craig Thomson as rumor and innuendo and fantasises about Malcolm Turnbull in the hope that he can rise and save his carbon tax. Desperate words from a desperate man clinging to his slice of power for a long as possible.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3684044.htm


----------



## noco

Kevin Rudd must be sitting in the back ground laughing his head off as to what is going on with Gillard.

If we do not have an election before the 14th September I will eat my hat.

If Rudd does challenge and wins I don't think he will wait until the 14th September. He will cash in on his early popularity and that challenge could come as early as the 14th February.
. I doubt if he will bring a victory for Labor, but I believe he could save a total demolition and perhaps go to the polls somewhere near 48 to 52 TPP. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...d-is-too-visible/story-e6frg74x-1226571124007


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> If we do not have an election before the 14th September I will eat my hat.
> 
> If Rudd does challenge and wins I don't think he will not wait until the 14th September. He will cash in on his early popularity.



Julia Gillard wouldn't wait till then either if the polls improved for Labor and she thought she had a chance of winning.


----------



## bunyip

Miss Hale said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, this guy is a bumbling fool, can't wait to see the back of him.




Yes, Windsor is a bumbling fool and so are the ALP and anyone associated with them including Oakshott and the Greens. History will record this mob as the most useless and pathetic bunch of incompetents in the history of Australian politics.

We’ve just gone through the biggest mining boom in the history of our nation, and what have we got to show for it???.......

* Massive debt
* Crumbling infrastructure
* Woefully under-capacity ports
* Long hospital waiting lists
* Massive expenses from the boat people problem that Labor created
* Poor education standards that are declining further all the time
* Massive funding cuts to health, defence, and customs

Stuff up after stuff up after stuff up. 
If this lot somehow gets re-elected then it will be a sad indictment on the intelligence of the Australian voting public.


----------



## noco

What a tangled web this Green/Labor socialist left wing party weave. The spider and the fly.

But as the link states the Liberal hirachy do not want to see Rudd as leader. So what if does come back, I doubt he win an election for Labor anyway.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...tolls-for-the-pm/story-fnfenwor-1226572997862


----------



## noco

What sort of a treasurer is this Wayne Swan. He has reneged on giving monthly forecasts on the mining tax revenue.

Is afraid of making a "GOOSE" of himself.

What a wanker.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ning-tax-promise/story-fnb56a2t-1226573055219


----------



## dutchie

noco said:


> What a wanker.




I think you've overrated him there, mate.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> Yes, Windsor is a bumbling fool




Actually he is not, he is one of the harder working politicians on policy in the lower house and talks a lot of sense.



> History will record this mob as the most useless and pathetic bunch of incompetents in the history of Australian politics.




Unlikely given Labor has held spending growth well below Howards government and raised taxes less but don't worry about the facts.



> We’ve just gone through the biggest mining boom in the history of our nation, and what have we got to show for it???.......
> 
> * Massive debt




No its not massive and it could be lower then you could complain about lack of services once Abbott gets in he will give you every opportunity. 



> * Crumbling infrastructure




Actually Howard was the one who stopped spending on infrastructure Labor have since increased it.



> * Woefully under-capacity ports




States build ports?



> * Long hospital waiting lists




States are responsible for hospitals ?




> * Massive expenses from the boat people problem that Labor created




Yep give you that one but the Coalition wont stop the boats unless they start sinking them.



> * Poor education standards that are declining further all the time




Yep but Abbott will have to cut funding further to meet the surplus requirements.



> * Massive funding cuts to health, defence, and customs




see above


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Actually he is not, he is one of the harder working politicians on policy in the lower house and talks a lot of sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Unlikely given Labor has held spending growth well below Howards government and raised taxes less but don't worry about the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> No its not massive and it could be lower then you could complain about lack of services once Abbott gets in he will give you every opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Howard was the one who stopped spending on infrastructure Labor have since increased it.
> 
> 
> 
> States build ports?
> 
> 
> 
> States are responsible for hospitals ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep give you that one but the Coalition wont stop the boats unless they start sinking them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep but Abbott will have to cut funding further to meet the surplus requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> see above



Well my friend I guess when you borrow $100,000,000 per day, you can buy anything including votes but in the end it has to be paid back and you can't pay back until the Government gets into surplus.

History is about to repeat itself all over again whereby the Coalition will have to pay back the Labor Party  credit card over the next 10 years and the likes of you rusted on Labor supporters will say "look at the coalition they have spent nothing on infrastructure". 

And the Labor Party WASTE, well we won't go there because the majority of voters already know all about that.


----------



## MrBurns

You gotta laugh, really



> Treasurer Wayne Swan has revealed the mining tax raised just $126 million during its first six months of operation, prompting calls for his resignation.







> The Coalition has described the tax as a "dog's breakfast" and called on Mr Swan to stand down as Treasurer.
> 
> "If Wayne Swan had any self-respect, he would resign. He is totally incompetent," shadow treasurer Joe Hockey told reporters in Sydney.





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-08/mining-tax-details-released/4508632


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> You gotta laugh, really
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-08/mining-tax-details-released/4508632




Hey Mr Burns, wasn't the MRRT going to pay for the increase in super and several other things?

What's going to pay for it all now?

Oh, yeh I know, more debt.lol


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Hey Mr Burns, wasn't the MRRT going to pay for the increase in super and several other things?
> What's going to pay for it all now?
> Oh, yeh I know, more debt.lol




They'll just pass on all this **** to the Libs, problem solved


----------



## Aussiejeff

"Well might we say, God save the Gillard government...."

It's time.....

'Tis a pity our GG isn't more into sniffters like dear departed Sir John. He had some balls, he did.


----------



## Calliope

Aussiejeff said:


> "Well might we say, God save the Gillard government...."
> 
> It's time.....
> 
> 'Tis a pity our GG isn't more into sniffters like dear departed Sir John. He had some balls, he did.




What's a sniffter? Do you mean "snifter"? A snifter, or balloon, is a type of stemware, a short-stemmed glass whose vessel has a *wide bottom and a relatively narrow top.*

I guess Julia is a snifter.


----------



## white_goodman




----------



## Country Lad

white_goodman said:


>





I watched less than 20 seconds of it and turned it off.  Not because of the message they were conveying but because they are insulting my intelligence by playing cr@p music louder than the people speaking and expect me to accept this as a serious issue.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## pilots

Country Lad said:


> I watched less than 20 seconds of it and turned it off.  Not because of the message they were conveying but because they are insulting my intelligence by playing cr@p music louder than the people speaking and expect me to accept this as a serious issue.
> 
> Cheers
> Country Lad



YES the music was cr@p, but the FACTS speak for then self.


----------



## dutchie

white_goodman said:


>





This government is so delusional that they actually believe their own bull sh@t!


----------



## sptrawler

Terrible choice of music, 'another one bites the dust' would have been much more appropriate.


----------



## DB008

sptrawler said:


> Terrible choice of music




+2, or is it 3....lol


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Terrible choice of music, 'another one bites the dust' would have been much more appropriate.



They might be saving that for when Wayne Swan in replaced as treasurer in another _orderly_ reshuffle.


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> Terrible choice of music, 'another one bites the dust' would have been much more appropriate.




Actually, I thought the music was very fitting to the Labor Party machine.

One has to use his/her imagination of a rusty old machine with a squeaky wheel that has not been well oiled for years.

The main driver of the machine has rusty coloured hair and has no clue what so ever, not only how to use it, but how to maintain it. It leaks oil every day and the media goons are there with their cans catching whatever drip they can.

She has put GREEN fuel in the tank and has a goose sitting above the machine and $h*tt^ng all over it.

Outside the barn for everyone to see is that Combetation trying to collect the carbon to increase the tax revenue.

Ah yes the music is very fitting in deed.

Maybe some other ASF members might like to add their imagination to the selected music.


----------



## Bintang

white_goodman said:


>





Love it .... give us more .... any music will do.


----------



## drsmith

I think even Barry Cassidy has reluctantly come to the conclusion that there's no life in the rotting corpse.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3687061.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3687066.htm


----------



## DB008

Someone posted this on FB...


----------



## dutchie

Workplace changes are right: Albanese

http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/br...hanges-are-right-albanese-20130211-2e7c2.html

"Federal cabinet minister Anthony Albanese says Labor's planned workplace relations changes must be right - because they have been criticised by both business and the Greens."

This is an excellent way to determine industrial relations policy. If the business sector criticises/does not like it then it *must* be good policy.

Idiots.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> Workplace changes are right: Albanese
> 
> http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/br...hanges-are-right-albanese-20130211-2e7c2.html
> 
> "Federal cabinet minister Anthony Albanese says Labor's planned workplace relations changes must be right - because they have been criticised by both business and the Greens."
> 
> This is an excellent way to determine industrial relations policy. If the business sector criticises/does not like it then it *must* be good policy.
> 
> Idiots.




Yes another policy to deter people from employing, they are now beyond a joke and beyond being referred to as merely incompetant, they are dumb, there's no other word for it and I can't see how they'll last till Sept.


----------



## drsmith

Wayne Swan talking to the kiddies about making the sums add up.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4557gkKuN4&feature=player_embedded


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Wayne Swan talking to the kiddies about making the sums add up.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4557gkKuN4&feature=player_embedded






Jeez doc, I bet Labor run that at all the bbq's it would give them a real laugh, taking the pizz out of Wayne.

Really he should become a comedian, he would be great at stand up. See how serious he is when he is telling everyone the sums have to add up, classic. 
How he keeps a straight face is brilliant.

That was magic, it should be entered in 'Australias funniest home videos'


----------



## drsmith

Labor's budget problem,



> According to Swan, Labor's fiscal woes are caused by an exceptionally low tax take. But that claim is difficult to accept. The government's latest published projections show 2012-13 revenue to be 24.0 per cent of GDP, which is above the historical average ratio of 23.6 percent. And even if revenue comes in at only 23.0 per cent of GDP, revenue as a share of GDP would still have grown since 2009-10, and grown in each of the past two years.
> 
> Rather, the government's fundamental problem lies on the spending side. And here, despite all the government's spin, the facts are simple. Under John Howard, real government spending per capita increased at 2.4 per cent a year; under Labor, it has increased more than twice as rapidly, at an annual average of 5.1 per cent. And to that must be added Labor's unfunded, but widely publicised, commitments to the Gonski reforms and the NDIS.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...r-super-strategy/story-fn7078da-1226574891956


----------



## DB008

drsmith said:


> Labor's budget problem,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to Swan, Labor's fiscal woes are caused by an exceptionally low tax take. But that claim is difficult to accept. The government's latest published projections show 2012-13 revenue to be 24.0 per cent of GDP, which is above the historical average ratio of 23.6 percent. And even if revenue comes in at only 23.0 per cent of GDP, revenue as a share of GDP would still have grown since 2009-10, and grown in each of the past two years.
> 
> Rather, the government's fundamental problem lies on the spending side. And here, despite all the government's spin, the facts are simple. Under John Howard, real government spending per capita increased at 2.4 per cent a year; under Labor, it has increased more than twice as rapidly, at an annual average of 5.1 per cent. And to that must be added Labor's unfunded, but widely publicised, commitments to the Gonski reforms and the NDIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...r-super-strategy/story-fn7078da-1226574891956
Click to expand...



Forget 'asleep at the wheel', they 'aren't even there'....


----------



## MrBurns

When Mungo calls it it's all over..............



> Labor is doomed and there's nothing it can do about it
> 
> Labor's standing in NSW is already abysmal and will certainly not improve as the ICAC hearings continue. The ALP can anticipate a landslide against it of catastrophic proportions in the federal election, writes Mungo MacCallum.




http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4511644.html


----------



## dutchie

from Larry Pickering

http://pickeringpost.com/article//917


----------



## drsmith

Be worried Julia, very worried.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAqAXyzhkY&feature=player_embedded


----------



## drsmith

Trish Crossin had to be sacked.

She was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.



dutchie said:


> View attachment 50935
> 
> 
> from Larry Pickering
> 
> http://pickeringpost.com/article//917


----------



## drsmith

More budget trouble for Labor.

1) From Laura Tingle on the carbon tax, my bolds,



> The government’s position on fiscal policy – already undermined by its concession that it will not reach a surplus this financial year – is increasingly open to question with the collapse in expectations that the mining tax will raise significant funds, *and the likelihood that carbon tax revenues will also be lower than expected for years to come.*




http://www.afr.com/p/national/treasury_finance_set_scene_for_funding_skG5nIVtCzlZx0xxITxsLI

2) Asylum seekers,



> The Australian immigration budget has increased by $1.3 billion over four years, as the government prepares to expand the humanitarian visa program to 20,000 each year.




http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/refugee-budget-climbs-13b-20130211-2e8wo.html

EDIT: It's too much. I've got to get off my bum.



> THE federal government's much-heralded "homestay" program for asylum seekers has collapsed, with just four people who have arrived on boats currently staying with Australian families.
> 
> The revelation, at a Senate budget estimates hearing, came as immigration officials admitted the children and ex-wife of alleged people smuggling kingpin Captain Emad remain in Australia on visas despite having deceived the government about the status of their father and husband.
> 
> Australian Homestay Network executive chairman David Bycroft said host families had been left "disappointed" after services providers for asylum seekers slowed placements to a trickle.
> 
> The hearing heard the program was on a "hiatus" until the Department of Immigration could place asylum seekers with hosts close to services. He said in some cases boat people wanted to be closer to their friends.






> It also emerged the department had budgeted for 12,000 boat arrivals this financial year but the influx has already topped 12,800.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-gets-the-bullet/story-e6freuy9-1226575731065


----------



## noco

Just another Green/Labor left wing socialist left wing bungle. Build a super clinic and leave it empty for 6 years and then blame the Queensland state Government for not filling it. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...c-an-empty-shell/story-e6freoof-1226576557846


----------



## noco

One more bungle to add to Labor's incompetance and to think the MRRT has cost us $50,000,000 to set up for a return of $126,000,000 over a period of 6 months. The three major miners must tbe laughing their heads off.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...f-her-own-making/story-e6frg74x-1226576514638


----------



## Calliope

So Gillard and Abbott have agreed to recognise indigenous Australians as the first inhabitants.

Big deal! All they had to do was look up Wikipedia.



> Indigenous Australians are the original inhabitants of the Australian continent and nearby islands.Indigenous Australians migrated from Africa to Asia around 70,000 years ago and arrived in Australia around 50,000 years ago.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> One more bungle to add to Labor's incompetance and to think the MRRT has cost us $50,000,000 to set up for a return of $126,000,000 over a period of 6 months. The three major miners must tbe laughing their heads off.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...f-her-own-making/story-e6frg74x-1226576514638



That's just the icing.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26263&p=755055&viewfull=1#post755055


----------



## drsmith

All is not well between this government and the public service.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...ters-and-ps-20130213-2edml.html#ixzz2KrCVAiuj


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

drsmith said:


> All is not well between this government and the public service.
> 
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...ters-and-ps-20130213-2edml.html#ixzz2KrCVAiuj




If even the left wing toadies in the Public Service in Canberra are turning against Gillard, she is stuffed.

gg


----------



## Logique

Garpal Gumnut said:


> If even the left wing toadies in the Public Service in Canberra are turning against Gillard, she is stuffed.
> 
> gg



Generally it was the Kerry O'Brien 'O' Meter that foretold the end. When Kerry turned, you were finished. But the Fed Public Service is a reasonable facsimile. However this seems like a qualified response from them.


----------



## dutchie

Robert McClelland to resign.

Speaker will decide whether a by-election will occur.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> Robert McClelland to resign.
> 
> Speaker will decide whether a by-election will occur.





It appears to be coming apart at the seams. 
I wonder if some are getting as fed up with Gillard, as they were with Rudd?


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> Robert McClelland to resign.
> 
> Speaker will decide whether a by-election will occur.



Watching parliament this week I get the impression Anna Burke is not enjoying being speaker.



sptrawler said:


> It appears to be coming apart at the seams.



MRRT failure laid bare in Senate economics committee.



> Dr Parkinson said the two big variables it did not take into account - and which resulted in the tax raising only $126 million in its first six months - were the value that the mining companies put on their assets (the starting base for the tax) and the share of the profits that is attributable to downstream operations not covered by the mining tax…
> 
> Dr Parkinson’s testimony highlights the concessions given by Mr Swan and Mr Ferguson, and signed off by the new Prime Minister, when they renegotiated the tax one week after the overthrow of Kevin Rudd in mid-2010.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> MRRT failure laid bare in Senate economics committee.
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/





So labor is too stupid to understand its own policies, what a surprise.


----------



## drsmith

A problem for Labor is that it might actually believe its own BS.



> After the 2010 election, Julia Gillard had broken her core election promise that "there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead". Her credibility has never recovered from that moment. But I have never regarded this breach as a lie because I have never believed that she didn't believe every word she solemnly uttered at the time.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-case-and-often/story-fnfenwor-1226578236993


----------



## drsmith

Some interesting graphics on our budget position from Michael Smith's site.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/02/more-charts-this-time-from-barry-the-numbers-man.html

They would be better on a log scale but even so, the first graph shows that while revenue has come back to trend (2007), expenditure has essentially remained at the higher level.


----------



## moXJO

> WHEN top accounting firm BDO warned Wayne Swan in 2011 that his mining tax could fail to collect much revenue, the Treasurer reacted by accusing it of "substantial errors" and "distorting the public debate".
> 
> More than a year later, John Murray, the BDO partner who crunched the numbers and issued what now appears to be a prophetic warning about the design flaws of the tax, describes the impact of Mr Swan's public attacks on him as "horrific".
> In an angry response to BDO's modelling, Mr Swan took the unusual step of releasing a confidential Treasury minute attacking Mr Murray's work and published a letter he sent to BDO accusing it of making "utterly unrealistic" assumptions.




Stupid and nasty, nice one Swannie. 
How many figures have labor fudged?
Because there are a lot that look a little suss at the moment.


----------



## Macquack

moXJO said:


> Stupid and nasty, nice one Swannie.
> How many figures have labor fudged?
> Because there are a lot that look a little suss at the moment.




I was all for the Federal government benefiting from a mining tax, however I believe it should have been royalty based on volume mined and *nothing to do with profitabilty*.

If a federally imposed mining royalty disadvantages smaller miners, bad luck for them. If it is not profitable for the smaller companies to mine, then leave the stuff in the ground.

The current system (Minerals Resource Rent Tax) has proven to be a failure.

Keep it simple, the bigger the hole in the ground, the bigger the revenues to governments.


----------



## sptrawler

Wasn't it Malaysia, we had a special relationship with and were going to trade refugees?

Well it looks as though the friendship has turned somewhat sour.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16159434/xenophons-deportation-stymies-mps-visit/

Poor old Nick Xenophons has been deported.


----------



## bellenuit

Macquack said:


> I was all for the Federal government benefiting from a mining tax, however I believe it should have been royalty based on volume mined and *nothing to do with profitabilty*.




Since mineral resources are the property of the respective state, I don't think the Federal Government can impose royalties. The states already do that.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> Wasn't it Malaysia, we had a special relationship with and were going to trade refugees?
> 
> Well it looks as though the friendship has turned somewhat sour.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16159434/xenophons-deportation-stymies-mps-visit/
> 
> Poor old Nick Xenophons has been deported.




It's good to see a do-gooder get done after sticking his nose into another country's affairs.


----------



## moXJO

Macquack said:


> I was all for the Federal government benefiting from a mining tax, however I believe it should have been royalty based on volume mined and *nothing to do with profitabilty*.
> 
> If a federally imposed mining royalty disadvantages smaller miners, bad luck for them. If it is not profitable for the smaller companies to mine, then leave the stuff in the ground.
> 
> The current system (Minerals Resource Rent Tax) has proven to be a failure.
> 
> Keep it simple, the bigger the hole in the ground, the bigger the revenues to governments.




I was for a mining tax and NBN. 
Libs seem to have wedged themselves into getting rid of it. And its too close to the election cycle for labor to cop it from the miners. So I wonder if it will be tweaked or dumped? 
Surely labor can get good advice to roll out at least one project


----------



## drsmith

Mr Mining Tax is now preaching to the G20 on the virtues of debt.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-recovery-at-g20/story-fn59nsif-1226579897299


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Mr Mining Tax is now preaching to the G20 on the virtues of debt.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-recovery-at-g20/story-fn59nsif-1226579897299




He never fails to amaze me, hide of a rhino.


----------



## sails

And now Ross Gittens blames Abbott for the mining tax failure because...get this...Abbott was polling better and because labor were afraid of what Abbott would say.  Goodness, that's never stopped them before from passing carbon tax, running up massive debt, losing control of our borders and any other laws generally unwanted by the majority of Aussies.

Wasn't Abbott just doing his job as opposition leader?  Unbelievable "the dog ate my homework" excuse..totally lame...

An excerpt from the link below:



> It was fear of what Abbott would say that prompted Labor to delay the release of the Henry report until it could rule out most of its controversial recommendations.
> 
> It was the success of Abbott and the miners' joint campaign against the tax that, added to his loss of nerve on the emissions trading scheme, made Rudd vulnerable to his enemies within Labor.
> 
> And it was Abbott's strength in the polls that made Gillard so anxious to square away the miners at any cost and rush to an election while her (as it turned out, non-existent) honeymoon lasted.




I am still shaking my head in disbelief - does Gittens really think Aussies are so stupid?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/abbott-must-share-the-blame-for-tax-stuffup-20130217-2el60.html


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> I am still shaking my head in disbelief - does Gittens really think Aussies are so stupid?



The kindest thing that can be said about that article is that perhaps he thinks that there should have been bipartisanship on the issue.

How though can there bipartisanship when the government negotiated with the big three miners purely from the context of its own political survival ?

Perhaps Ross just doesn't like a strong opposition.


----------



## dutchie

sails said:


> I am still shaking my head in disbelief - does Gittens really think Aussies are so stupid?
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/abbott-must-share-the-blame-for-tax-stuffup-20130217-2el60.html




More importantly, the whole of the ALP think Aussies are stupid.

Why else would they continue to spin, spin, spin. Everything is Abbott's fault. They are not to blame for anything!

(At least Paul Howes admits his mistake)


----------



## drsmith

This Fairfax online poll might send them into a spin,

http://www.smh.com.au/polls/opinion/politics/labors-poll-pain-20130218-2elsv.html#poll

Vote Labor/Likely to vote Labor stands at 18%. 30688 votes counted.


----------



## noco

dutchie said:


> More importantly, the whole of the ALP think Aussies are stupid.
> 
> Why else would they continue to spin, spin, spin. Everything is Abbott's fault. They are not to blame for anything!
> 
> (At least Paul Howes admits his mistake)




Yes and the Labor parrots have been brainwashed with the same lines whenver they are interviewed.

"ABBOT IS WRAPPED UP IN COTTON WOOL AND WON'T ATTEND PRESS INTERVIEWS". Does this sound familiar?

Can you blame him for steering clear of the biased ABC? 

Have you ever seen Gillard or Swan on the popular Bolt report on Sundays? I wonder why/


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> This Fairfax online poll might send them into a spin,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/polls/opinion/politics/labors-poll-pain-20130218-2elsv.html#poll
> 
> Vote Labor/Likely to vote Labor stands at 18%. 30688 votes counted.



Interesting change.

Vote Labor/Likely to vote Labor stands at 30%, 42235 votes counted. This means that 62% of the 11547 voters between the two counts would vote Labor/Likely to vote Labor.

Coull someone please pass the salt.


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Interesting change.
> 
> Vote Labor/Likely to vote Labor stands at 30%, 42235 votes counted. This means that 62% of the 11547 voters between the two counts would vote Labor/Likely to vote Labor.
> 
> Coull someone please pass the salt.






Yes, more likely to vote Labor                                 23%
Yes, more likely to vote Liberal/National                    15%
Yes, more likely to vote Greens/other                         3%
No, still voting Labor                                              11%
No, still voting Liberal/National                                 38%
No, still voting Greens/other                                    10%

Total votes: 46804.


----------



## drsmith

On the latest Essential poll, Labor has improved slightly.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport

I don't know how.


----------



## noco

And "DUMB AND DUMBER" have the audacity to say every thing is alright.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...k-hole-in-budget/story-fn7078da-1226579834717


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> And now Ross Gittens blames Abbott for the mining tax failure because...get this...Abbott was polling better and because labor were afraid of what Abbott would say.  Goodness, that's never stopped them before from passing carbon tax, running up massive debt, losing control of our borders and any other laws generally unwanted by the majority of Aussies.
> 
> Wasn't Abbott just doing his job as opposition leader?  Unbelievable "the dog ate my homework" excuse..totally lame...
> 
> An excerpt from the link below:
> 
> 
> 
> I am still shaking my head in disbelief - does Gittens really think Aussies are so stupid?
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/abbott-must-share-the-blame-for-tax-stuffup-20130217-2el60.html






drsmith said:


> The kindest thing that can be said about that article is that perhaps he thinks that there should have been bipartisanship on the issue.
> 
> How though can there bipartisanship when the government negotiated with the big three miners purely from the context of its own political survival ?
> 
> Perhaps Ross just doesn't like a strong opposition.




Your bias is extraordinary Gittens lays the blame squarely on the government he just makes the point that the big reforms received bipartisan support Abbott has failed on this front.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Your bias is extraordinary Gittens lays the blame squarely on the government he just makes the point that the big reforms received bipartisan support Abbott has failed on this front.




LOL - this is the title of his article:  *Abbott must share the blame for tax stuff-up*l

I still say it is pretty lame to try to blame Abbott because he was doing his job  as opposition leader AND because he was polling better.  

And, as I said before, neither of these two factors have stopped Gillard passing whatever legislation she has wanted even when it has been against the will of the majority of Aussies, such as carbon tax, border policy and massive debt.  Labor raised the debt ceiling - I don't think they would have cared two hoots what Abbott said or thought.

As usual, just more of "the dog ate my homework" type excuses while trying to make Abbott look like the bad guy.

Won't work...Aussies are waking up to this...


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Gittens lays the blame squarely on the government he just makes the point that the big reforms received bipartisan support Abbott has failed on this front.



bipartisanship could have been on no resources super profit tax, which ironically, is about what we've ended up with.

It's a pity though that Labor's spent the money.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Your bias is extraordinary Gittens lays the blame squarely on the government he just makes the point that the big reforms received bipartisan support Abbott has failed on this front.




Why anyone would read Gittin, is beyond me, most of the time it's incoherent ramblings.
Much like some of us on the forum.lol


----------



## sails

An interesting look back to an article I posted on the 4th July 2010 in the "Mining Tax Grab" thread...

Some excerpts from the article link below from the miners who attended the meeting (bolds are mine):



> …What we were especially amazed at was the level of sheer naivete and incompetence. The grasp of fundamental economics -- more specifically commercial reality -- *was barely past what you learn in year 12 at high school*.…






> ...The chief executives arrived at that day's negotiations with their finance teams, each two and three-strong. They expected to be shown Treasury's modelling, and arrived with their own internal numbers to demonstrate the impacts on the tax on a range of commodities. But Treasury "refused" the opportunity of show and tell. "*It was an absolute farce*...






> …In the end the miners were not provided with Treasury's modelling until last Wednesday. *These were the numbers that, according one insider, had come from "planet Mars*"…






> …”They had made it up and had no idea how to back it up. It was like sitting university professors down to lecture *primary school students*," one of the miners' advisers claimed yesterday…




Full article: Treasury tarnished by turn of events over mining super tax


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> An interesting look back to an article I posted on the 4th July 2010 in the "Mining Tax Grab" thread...
> 
> Some excerpts from the article link below from the miners who attended the meeting (bolds are mine):
> 
> 
> Full article: Treasury tarnished by turn of events over mining super tax




One has to wonder about the motives of the people involved.

Sometimes the end, justifies the means. 
All the plebs have, is a belief in karma.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> One has to wonder about the motives of the people involved.




I don't know about motives -  it looks like Swan and treasury simply had no idea going by that article.


----------



## banco

sails said:


> I don't know about motives -  it looks like Swan and treasury simply had no idea going by that article.




Treasury was excluded from the talks. My understanding is all of the figures etc. were been done by political advisers in Gillard's/Swan's office who simply didn't have the expertise needed to negotiate on an even footing with the miners.


----------



## sptrawler

banco said:


> Treasury was excluded from the talks. My understanding is all of the figures etc. were been done by political advisers in Gillard's/Swan's office who simply didn't have the expertise needed to negotiate on an even footing with the miners.



Which would lead to the result.
Everyone got the outcome they wanted. Wouldn't it?


----------



## sptrawler

As a Freo Docker supporter.
Is Kev being set up for the "Ole Heave Ho".

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/beware-knives-of-march-20130218-2enj0.html

Jeez it's not nice in the snake pit.

This is all great theatre, it will be a magic mini series.


----------



## sptrawler

Even the SMH has started running with it, definitely storm clouds ahead for Labor.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/final-nail-in-pms-coffin-20130218-2end2.html#poll

I suppose the SMH have realised, the majority think Labor are on the nose, if they keep printing content that conflicts with the buyer, circulation will suffer.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Even the SMH has started running with it, definitely storm clouds ahead for Labor.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/final-nail-in-pms-coffin-20130218-2end2.html#poll
> 
> I suppose the SMH have realised, the majority think Labor are on the nose, if they keep printing content that conflicts with the buyer, circulation will suffer.




Took them long enough to work that one out.  Meanwhile  Fairfax's share  price has been plummeting since 2006 - you would think they would have done something about it long ago.


----------



## dutchie

Bill Ludwig - another union leader at the trough of the Union funds.

The AWU paid a $45,000 legal bill for Ludwig's private (non union) matter.

Union members at the conference love this sort of stuff.


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> LOL - this is the title of his article:  *Abbott must share the blame for tax stuff-up*l
> 
> I still say it is pretty lame to try to blame Abbott because he was doing his job  as opposition leader AND because he was polling better.
> 
> And, as I said before, neither of these two factors have stopped Gillard passing whatever legislation she has wanted even when it has been against the will of the majority of Aussies, such as carbon tax, border policy and massive debt.  Labor raised the debt ceiling - I don't think they would have cared two hoots what Abbott said or thought.
> 
> As usual, just more of "the dog ate my homework" type excuses while trying to make Abbott look like the bad guy.
> 
> Won't work...Aussies are waking up to this...




Maybe you missed this bit







> And it brings us to the mining tax. Let me be crystal clear about this: Labor has made an almighty hash of the minerals resource rent tax, revealing an abysmal level of political nous, moral courage and administrative competence.
> 
> It failed to release the Henry tax reform report for discussion well before announcing its decisions (thereby catching the miners unawares), failed to explain an utterly mystifying tax measure (and, before that, press Treasury to come up with something more intuitive).
> 
> It failed to stop the entire business community joining the miners' crusade against the tax, failed to counter the economic nonsense the miners peddled in their TV ad campaign, and failed to hold its own in the negotiations with the big three miners, allowing them to turn the tax into a policy dog's breakfast that, at least in its early years, would raise next to nothing.
> 
> In all this Kevin Rudd has to take much of the blame (for lacking the courage to release the Henry report early), Wayne Swan has to take much of the blame (for not putting Treasury through its paces and being so weak at explaining the tax) and Julia Gillard has to take much of the blame (for decapitating Rudd and then being so desperate to rush to an election she was prepared to agree to anything the miners demanded, without proper Treasury scrutiny).
> *After all that, Labor deserves no mercy*
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/abbo...tax-stuffup-20130217-2el60.html#ixzz2LKWZQfU7


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Maybe you missed this bit




No, I didn't miss that bit - I posted the title of the article and I posted the excerpts where gittens attempted to put some blame on to Abbott because he was polling better and because they were supposedly scared of what he said.

Abbott had nothing to do with the setting up of the mining tax.

I thought that was hypocritical because labor have passed legislation whenever it suits them despite Abbott being vocal in his opposition when he has represented the majority of voters - such as in carbon tax, stopping the boats and debt and yet the article tries to say labor were scared of what he would say.

The smear and innuendo is unbelievable...


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> No, I didn't miss that bit - I posted the title of the article and I posted the excerpts where gittens attempted to put some blame on to Abbott because he was polling better and because they were supposedly scared of what he said.
> 
> Abbott had nothing to do with the setting up of the mining tax.
> 
> I thought that was hypocritical because labor have passed legislation whenever it suits them despite Abbott being vocal in his opposition when he has represented the majority of voters - such as in carbon tax, stopping the boats and debt and yet the article tries to say labor were scared of what he would say.
> 
> The smear and innuendo is unbelievable...




Gittens is a fair writer based of solid arguments and facts IMHO.

I think its over the top to ignore Abbotts behaviour in the political struggle for power which has been Abbotts focus from day one of his leadership of the Coalition I have yet to see any behaviour of his in the nations interest.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> I think its over the top to ignore Abbotts behaviour in the political struggle for power which has been Abbotts focus from day one of his leadership of the Coalition I have yet to see any behaviour of his in the nations interest.




But don't you see that every time he opposes this pathetically inept government it *is* in the nations interest.


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> I think its over the top to ignore Abbotts behaviour in the political struggle for power which has been Abbotts focus from day one of his leadership of the Coalition




You're right. He deserves a lot of credit for putting Gillard and her mob up **** creek without a paddle.



> I have yet to see any behaviour of his in the nations interest.




That's because your blinkered view of the "nation's interest" is loony left.


----------



## waza1960

Here's a little song about Gillard for the masses


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> But don't you see that every time he opposes this pathetically inept government it *is* in the nations interest.




You may or not agree with Labors policy but a MRRT of some sort had to happen Labor blew it through being wimps but Abbott has not acted in Australia's interest by his lies in opposing it.

If you think the golden age is coming when Abbott is elected I suggest you look again at the world stage.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> If you think the golden age is coming when Abbott is elected I suggest you look again at the world stage.




It may well be that it won't be a Golden Age but even if all he does is say whooppee! every day for the next 4 years it will be better than the crap we have been served up for the last 5 years.


----------



## MrBurns

IFocus said:


> You may or not agree with Labors policy but a MRRT of some sort had to happen Labor blew it through being wimps but Abbott has not acted in Australia's interest by his lies in opposing it.
> 
> If you think the golden age is coming when Abbott is elected I suggest you look again at the world stage.




Ok let Labor give Abbott the surplus they started with, thats fair, I think they'd improve on it nicely.


----------



## Knobby22

That article hits home.

60% of Australians are for the mining tax.
We have it on gas (Howard brought it in), why not minerals. Its ours after all. Abbot has some guilt in this however he will be handsomely rewarded in the next election through donations. I think this is against democracy and our interests. As IFocus said, will Abbotts rule be a golden age, at present I think not.

The stupidity of Gillard, the Treasurer and who ever else was in the room with the mining companies astounds me so they got diddled.
I reckon this is why the polls have turned around. People have lost confidence in them. They can't work out a deal like that then how can they run the economy. 

Some of their other decisions they made like getting rid of the single mother's pension is something Howard would never have done. If they are going to act like that then why not vote for the Libs.

Easy to see why the polls have turned. Making Rudd the leader will only have a small effect if that as he is tainted also.


----------



## Logique

It was an inexplicable series of concessions at the time, which the Greens highlight by their recent actions. 







> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...lne_proves_gillard_sold_her_soul_for_nothing/
> She [the PM] gave the Greens access to Treasury briefings and weekly meetings with herself when Parliament was sitting. And as a sweetener, she added a $10 billion “clean energy” fund - wasting $10 billion she now desperately needs.
> 
> The voters’ trust in her has never recovered. Labor itself was weakened, made to look like a Greens’ puppet. And the money she wasted…
> 
> And now Milne confirms it was all for nothing.



Under is not an official Lib Party advert, just a suggestion from blogger Jim Ball, I like it.


----------



## drsmith

Oh dear!

Not another clanger ?



> It was funded by the axing of accelerated research and development tax breaks for about 20 mining, financial services and retail companies with turnovers of more than $20 billion, forecast to raise $1 billion over four years.
> 
> But late last year, in cabinet-in-confidence advice, Greg Combet's Industry Department argued vehemently against that plan, which had the strong backing of Treasury.
> 
> In advice canvassed with other departments and a government taskforce advising on the policy, the Industry Department warned Treasury's $1 billion option would encourage the big companies to find ways to rearrange their financial relationships with related overseas entities and buyers in order to reduce their Australian turnover below the $20 billion threshold.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/gillard-warned-numbers-wont-add-up-20130219-2eplf.html


----------



## Calliope

Rudd describes the antics of his dog Abby, which are actually a copy of her master's tactics. 



> "And then there is our youngest child, Abby, our nine-year-old golden retriever whose daily mission is just to wreck the place and then to stare at you with an angelic, wide-eyed 'who, me?' look plastered right across her slightly vacant face."







http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ecking-the-joint/story-fnahw9xv-1226582226513


----------



## bunyip

Calliope said:


> Rudd describes the antics of his dog Abby, which are actually a copy of her master's tactics.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 51069
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...ecking-the-joint/story-fnahw9xv-1226582226513




Yeh, that just about sums up Rudd, useless damn fool that he was and no doubt still is.

Academically brilliant, dux of his school, OP1 which is the highest academic standards students can achieve in QLD.
Yet the bloke was sadly lacking in common sense and practical ability, as he quickly proved during his reign as PM.


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> The stupidity of Gillard, the Treasurer and who ever else was in the room with the mining companies astounds me so they got diddled.
> I reckon this is why the polls have turned around. People have lost confidence in them. They can't work out a deal like that then how can they run the economy.
> 
> Some of their other decisions they made like getting rid of the single mother's pension is something Howard would never have done. If they are going to act like that then why not vote for the Libs.
> 
> Easy to see why the polls have turned. Making Rudd the leader will only have a small effect if that as he is tainted also.




Swan is the straw which will break the camel's back!



> It was not Gillard, but the famously foul-mouthed Treasurer, Wayne Swan, who carries primary responsibility for the multiple blunders in the budget calculation. The same Treasurer who led the charge in the politics of personal vituperation. The same Treasurer Wayne Swan who was the first and last man standing in peddling the fantasy that this Labor government could ever deliver a budget surplus. The same Wayne Swan who negotiated the mining tax.





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...r-walloping-20130220-2ermw.html#ixzz2LUlzD8Vr


----------



## Miss Hale

Logique said:


> Under is not an official Lib Party advert, just a suggestion from blogger Jim Ball, I like it.
> View attachment 51048




Let the sun shine in


----------



## MrBurns

Look at the way she's handling this, big bully, confrontaional, pushing and shoving, there's no other word for it Gillard is a bitch. She handles everything this way, just a smart **** cow really.



> Queensland Premier Campbell Newman says today's announcement by Ms Gillard in relation to the Victorian health system is an admission that "the feds" had cut funding, adding that he would have no problem with federal funding going directly to his state's hospitals.
> 
> "What isn't acceptable is that they are saying 'what we'll do is take the $103 million out of other programs in Queensland' and who knows what that means?" he told Fairfax radio.
> 
> "What they are doing now is even more outrageous. It's just a sad, sick joke."




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-21/gillard-threatens-to-bypass-states-on-health-funding/4532420


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> Look at the way she's handling this, big bully, confrontaional, pushing and shoving, there's no other word for it Gillard is a bitch. She handles everything this way, just a smart **** cow really.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-21/gillard-threatens-to-bypass-states-on-health-funding/4532420




more.....







> Ms Gillard says the funding adjustment was based on revised population figures, but last night she wrote to Victorian Premier Ted Baillieu to say the money would now be given directly to local hospital networks.
> 
> "That money won't pass through Premier Baillieu's hands," Ms Gillard told reporters in Adelaide.
> 
> "And what we will do to balance the books is we will cut $107 million off other sources of funding to the Victorian Government."
> 
> She says Victoria will lose $55 million in reward funding it would have received under national economic reforms, with the remaining money to be recouped through cuts to other grants.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> more.....




There will be more, MrBurns, more rorting.

They couldn't manage the BER or putting batts in rooves. Lets see how they go putting checks in place, while direct funding hospitals.

Watch for it in the newspapers.lol


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

I think this whole government from Gillard through Swan, Plibersek, Wong and on to Emerson and the rest are a proper pack of nut jobs.

No talent, no governance, no financial ability, awash in our taxes, spending badly and madly, in an attempt doomed to failure, to hang on to their miserable existence in government.

A Proper Pack of Nut Jobs.

And the ALP think their saviour is another Nut Job, an alleged, by them, Psychopath twice rejected by his own party.

A Proper Pack of Nut Jobs.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

I've said more than once , how does someone like Gillard get to be PM

Someone just posted this elsewhere which might explain it.



> Think of someone of average intelligence. Then consider that half the population is dumber...


----------



## Ijustnewit

MrBurns said:


> Look at the way she's handling this, big bully, confrontaional, pushing and shoving, there's no other word for it Gillard is a bitch. She handles everything this way, just a smart **** cow really.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-21/gillard-threatens-to-bypass-states-on-health-funding/4532420




+1
Saw her on ABC news 24 , giving a conference on the Victorian Health issue. She certainly comes across as a nasty piece of work and the way she was laying down the law and issuing threats against the other state governments was far from stately for a PM. If she does get ousted in September she won't go nicely that's for sure.


----------



## MrBurns

Ijustnewit said:


> +1
> Saw her on ABC news 24 , giving a conference on the Victorian Health issue. She certainly comes across as a nasty piece of work and the way she was laying down the law and issuing threats against the other state governments was far from stately for a PM. If she does get ousted in September she won't go nicely that's for sure.




I think she'll get nastier as the time of her demise draws closer, thing is everyone is onto her now, her old tricks wont work any more.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> I think she'll get nastier as the time of her demise draws closer, thing is everyone is onto her now, her old tricks wont work any more.




+ 1, but I just cannot see her lasting the distance to the 14th September especially if the polls go against her on the next occassion.

I am sure somthing will break before then.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> + 1, but I just cannot see her lasting the distance to the 14th September especially if the polls go against her on the next occassion.
> 
> I am sure somthing will break before then.




The question is which of the limp *icks would have the courage to front her. Remember the blubering and tears after the last Rudd attempt to overthrow her.

No they would nead someone with a really nasty streak, with no loyalty, no principles, no charisma and it would help if the person didn't mind using bad language when stabbing their leader in the back.
There's only two that come to mind and one doesn't count.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Actually he is not, he is one of the harder working politicians on policy in the lower house and talks a lot of sense.




Windsor is one of the traitors who put Gillard into power after she lost the election. No wonder you lefties sing his praises. 
I live just a couple of hours down the road from his New England electorate. Some of my contacts in that area are less impressed than you are by his political performance – they tell me that his vote will substantially decline at the next election, even if he manages to hold on to his seat.





IFocus said:


> Unlikely given Labor has held spending growth well below Howards government and raised taxes less .



One of the most damning measures of incompetence against this government is the disgraceful waste in how they’ve spent the money. They’ve turned a healthy inherited surplus into a serious deficit. They’ve put our country heavily into debt by recklessly splashing money around on hair-brained schemes such as pink bats, unnecessary and grossly over-priced school buildings, not to mention the many thousands of millions of dollars frittered away on the boat people issue that was entirely of their own making. In spite of all this heavy expenditure, in spite of their new taxes designed to raise more government revenue, we have serious deterioration in education standards, health care, roads etc. And yet people like you keep singing their praises!






IFocus said:


> No its not massive and it could be lower then you could complain about lack of services once Abbott gets in he will give you every opportunity.



It’s people like you, not me, who are most likely to complain when Abbot is forced to tighten the belt to address the economic mess that Labor will leave him with.





IFocus said:


> Actually Howard was the one who stopped spending on infrastructure Labor have since increased it.



No, Howard did _*not*_ stop spending on infrastructure, but like all governments he spent too little money where it was needed most. Just like your hero Gillard has done. It never ceases to amaze me that the regions that produce so much wealth are often sorely neglected when it comes to services and infrastructure. Mining areas in QLD are a good example.....awful roads and a lack of services are the norm in these areas. A modest portion of the scores of billions of dollars wasted by Labor could have made a real difference if it had been redirected to these areas.





IFocus said:


> States build ports?



Billions of dollars were poured into cash handouts, pink bats, school buildings, and various other ill-considered schemes that produced poor returns on dollars invested. There are dozens of ways in which a significant portion of this money could have been better invested, one of which is by improving port capacity so that coal and iron ore ships don’t have to spend up to a week sitting offshore before they can be loaded. 





IFocus said:


> States are responsible for hospitals ?



600 million dollars of federal health funding earmarked for the states has been withdrawn. The 100 million dollars cut from Queensland's health funding is enough money to employ 2000 nurses. Hospital beds are closing down due to insufficient money to employ staff to look after patients who would otherwise fill those beds. The federal government bears a significant portion of the blame for long hospital waiting lists and a generally inadequate health care system.






IFocus said:


> Yep give you that one but the Coalition wont stop the boats unless they start sinking them.



Maybe, maybe not. You lefties didn’t think Howard could stop the boats either. Time will tell whether Abbot can do it, assuming he wins government in September. His efforts in that regard will almost certainly be an improvement on the immensely costly boat people debacle that Labor created. 






IFocus said:


> Yep but Abbott will have to cut funding further to meet the surplus requirements.




Yes, Abbot will have to tighten up on expenditure to get on top of the economic mess that Labor will leave him. Just like QLD premier Campbell Newman has had to reduce expenditure to sort out the economic mess created by the Labor government that he ousted. 
And you and your lefty red ragger mates will squeal like hell, just like the red raggers are doing in QLD because they lack the mental capacity to comprehend that the first step in solving an economic mess is to cut back on wasteful expenditure.
You can bet your life that Abbot won’t go berserk and waste scores of billions of dollars on hair-brained schemes like Labor has done.


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> The question is which of the limp *icks would have the courage to front her...



That's the state of play SpT. Shorten doesn't seem to have what it takes, he's no Paul Keating. I wonder if the marginal seat ALP members have twigged that they're now considered expendable.

The ship of state is adrift and hemorrhaging cash, one madcap scheme after another. Noblesse oblige? Not troubling the scorer. Just imagine hypothetically, if a GFC II came along now. This can get really bad.


----------



## noco

Just another sick fiddle by this incomopetent Left wing sociast Labor Party to prop up its sic budget.

Lives are at stake here and they could not care less.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...nts-turns-septic/story-e6freoof-1226583069218


----------



## drsmith

Wayne Swan raids the piggy bank.



> RESERVE Bank governor Glenn Stevens said that while he would have preferred to build up the central bank's reserves, Treasurer Wayne Swan was entitled to take a $500 million dividend for the 2011/12 financial year.




http://www.news.com.au/business/bre...ns/story-e6frfkur-1226583423930#ixzz2LaSGwakQ


----------



## noco

SURELY THIS CANNOT BE TRUE!!!!!!!

I wonder how the questioned was asked in the latest Galaxy poll?


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-alp-leadership/story-e6freoof-1226583686587


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> SURELY THIS CANNOT BE TRUE!!!!!!!
> 
> I wonder how the questioned was asked in the latest Galaxy poll?
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-alp-leadership/story-e6freoof-1226583686587



Let's try asking Galaxy.  I have just sent the following email to them:


> I would be grateful if you could provide the wording of the question which prompted the result that showed reinstatement of Kevin Rudd would result in a Labor victory at the next election.



 Will post the response, if any.

The result does not surprise me at all.  This is what I have been alluding to in another thread where some of you seem impatient for a change of leadership for Labor and an early election.
Both you, noco, and drsmith, are clearly wanting a Coalition win.  Isn't it surely far safer to go to the election with a Labor leader who is currently rating lower than Mr Abbott, than a martyred ex leader who obviously commands considerable support in the electorate, even if this is just romantically based on the thoroughly unpleasant way he was knifed out of office?

Sometimes the longer view is the more realistic and rational.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Let's try asking Galaxy.  I have just sent the following email to them:
> 
> Will post the response, if any.
> 
> The result does not surprise me at all.  This is what I have been alluding to in another thread where some of you seem impatient for a change of leadership for Labor and an early election.
> Both you, noco, and drsmith, are clearly wanting a Coalition win.  Isn't it surely far safer to go to the election with a Labor leader who is currently rating lower than Mr Abbott, than a martyred ex leader who obviously commands considerable support in the electorate, even if this is just romantically based on the thoroughly unpleasant way he was knifed out of office?
> 
> Sometimes the longer view is the more realistic and rational.




Julia, I don't think any of us has a say in what will really happen. It is all in the lap of the Gods of caucas and the Trade unions.

So expect the worst and hope for the best.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Let's try asking Galaxy.  I have just sent the following email to them:
> Will post the response, if any.
> ...Both you, noco, and drsmith, are clearly wanting a Coalition win...Sometimes the longer view is the more realistic and rational.



Go Julia Well at least you have brought those twin (as we know) scoundrels Dr Zacchary and Noco into line.


----------



## Calliope

Question...How would you vote if Kevin Rudd was leader of the Labor Party and Tony Abbott leader of the Liberal Party?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-as-labor-leader/story-e6freoof-1226583879412


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> The result does not surprise me at all.  This is what I have been alluding to in another thread where some of you seem impatient for a change of leadership for Labor and an early election.
> 
> Isn't it surely far safer to go to the election with a Labor leader who is currently rating lower than Mr Abbott, than a martyred ex leader who obviously commands considerable support in the electorate, even if this is just romantically based on the thoroughly unpleasant way he was knifed out of office?
> 
> Sometimes the longer view is the more realistic and rational.




My thoughts exactly, as I’ve said a number of times before. Even Abbot and his coalition mates have at various times called for a change of leadership in Labor. 
That’s pretty silly in my view – they must have short memories if they can’t remember what happened to Labor’s vote after the last leadership change. 
Gillard is so much ‘on the nose’ that the sensible thing to do would be to say nothing that will encourage her party to get rid of her. 
With Gillard at the helm at the next election there’s a pretty decent chance that Labor will suffer the fate they so richly deserve. Change leadership to Rudd, or pretty much any of the other incompetents in the ALP, and there will be an immediate upsurge in their polling, which just might be enough to get them over the line in September.

My guess is that Rudd is odds on to launch a leadership challenge in the next few months, and will more than likely defeat Gillard.
People must have very short memories if they throw their support behind Rudd. He’s an arrogant bastard, not a team player according to his ALP colleagues, a bloke who is big on grandiose plans but small on common sense and practical ability. As PM he was just as much a disaster as Gillard has been.
It would be amusing to see Swan, Shorten etc trying to work with Rudd, given their strident criticism of him.


----------



## sails

Agree Bunyip.  Rudd started and still supports some of the unwanted policies Gillard continued on with:

- Pricing Carbon

-  It was Rudd who abolished the pacific solution leading to an influx of people who may not be genuine refugees.

- It was Rudd who started the massive spending spree in labor​So I find it difficult to believe that the Aussie electorate would be so stupid as to give him the reigns back.  Just because he wasn't as bad as Gillard doesn't mean he is competent either.

And when labor have used him yet again, will they knife him again?  Pretty much a pump and dump?


The chart below shows clearly what happened to fiscal management when Rudd took over and then the same spending sprees have been continued under Gillard.  Would they do this is if it were their own money?


----------



## Calliope

You can pencil this Queensland poll in as an aberration. Put it down to Qld parochialism. Anyone south of the Tweed is regarded with suspicion. I doubt that the ''good ole boy'' attitude to Rudd would hold up in a real election. He is so obviously a boofheaded pr*ck.


----------



## noco

Logique said:


> Go Julia Well at least you have brought those twin (as we know) scoundrels Dr Zacchary and Noco into line.




Ha Logique, what I did I do to be branded a scoundrel? LOL


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Both you, noco, and drsmith, are clearly wanting a Coalition win.  Isn't it surely far safer to go to the election with a Labor leader who is currently rating lower than Mr Abbott, than a martyred ex leader who obviously commands considerable support in the electorate, even if this is just romantically based on the thoroughly unpleasant way he was knifed out of office?



With Labor, both the leader and the brand now stink. Another leader, whether it be Kevin Rudd or anyone doesn't change the odour of the brand.

Labor would lose regardless.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Question...How would you vote if Kevin Rudd was leader of the Labor Party and Tony Abbott leader of the Liberal Party?
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-as-labor-leader/story-e6freoof-1226583879412



Thanks, Calliope.  I have given up reading the Courier Mail.



Calliope said:


> You can pencil this Queensland poll in as an aberration. Put it down to Qld parochialism. Anyone south of the Tweed is regarded with suspicion. I doubt that the ''good ole boy'' attitude to Rudd would hold up in a real election. He is so obviously a boofheaded pr*ck.



Agree about the Queensland factor, but he still rates way higher than Gillard in all the national polls.
I would not like to see him reinstated for even a minute.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> With Labor, both the leader and the brand now stink. Another leader, whether it be Kevin Rudd or anyone doesn't change the odour of the brand.
> 
> Labor would lose regardless.



That being said, it would be justice for the electorate for Julia to face our judgement.

I would prefer to see it happen sooner rather than later though.


----------



## bunyip

drsmith said:


> With Labor, both the leader and the brand now stink. Another leader, whether it be Kevin Rudd or anyone doesn't change the odour of the brand.
> 
> Labor would lose regardless.




I'd like to think you and Calliope are right. 

Rudd as leader would at least narrow the gap, which is just what we don't want - we need the socialist red ragger bastards to fall even further behind. 
The best chance of that happening is if they keep Gillard as leader.

I still think they're stuffed at the next election no matter what they do. I just don't want to see them being encouraged to make any moves that are even remotely likely to increase their support.


----------



## drsmith

bunyip said:


> I'd like to think you and Calliope are right.
> 
> Rudd as leader would at least narrow the gap, which is just what we don't want - we need the socialist red ragger bastards to fall even further behind.
> The best chance of that happening is if they keep Gillard as leader.
> 
> I still think they're stuffed at the next election no matter what they do. I just don't want to see them being encouraged to make any moves that are even remotely likely to increase their support.



I'm actually caught between two hats here.

With one on, I'd just like to see them soundly out of office ASAP for the sake of the country regardless of who is leader.

With the other, I'd like to see them burned and buried and will enjoy the entertainment the process provides in the meantime.

If it goes full term though, I doubt Julia Gillard will still be at the helm regardless. There's still over 5km of the electoral cycle marathon to go and she's broken both legs.

The ideal in my view would be an early poll with Julia Gillard struggling for the line on her hands.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> I'm actually caught between two hats here.
> 
> With one on, I'd just like to see them soundly out of office ASAP for the sake of the country regardless of who is leader.
> 
> With the other, I'd like to see them burned and buried and will enjoy the entertainment the process provides in the meantime.
> 
> If it goes full term though, I doubt Julia Gillard will still be at the helm regardless. There's still over 5km of the electoral cycle marathon to go and she's broken both legs.
> 
> The ideal in my view would be an early poll with Julia Gillard struggling for the line on her hands.




A election before 3 August 2013 would not be in the Coalition's interests.



> However, given the government would likely lose any early election, the complications would all be for the Coalition, not the Labor Party.
> 
> An early election would be about preventing the Coalition getting control of the Senate at an election in late 2013. It would also be about locking a first term Coalition government into an election in 2014, and perhaps even cutting short its second term.
> 
> Section 13 of the Constuitution means that any election held before 3 August 2013 would be for the House of Representatives and the four Territory Senators. There cannot be a half-Senate election for state Senators before August 2013, and even then, the new Senators elected would not take their seats until 1 July 2014.
> 
> This is one reason why over the next year you may hear much less of the Coalition calling for an immediate election.
> 
> A Coalition government coming to office at an early election would not only face a hostile Senate. It would also have to deal with another consequence of Section 13 of the Constitution, a requirement to hold a half-Senate election by the end of May 2014



.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2012/09/which-party-wants-an-early-election.html


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> A election before 3 August 2013 would not be in the Coalition's interests.
> 
> http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2012/09/which-party-wants-an-early-election.html



I hadn't thought of that.

It makes me wonder what Julia Gillard will actually do.


----------



## Bintang

drsmith said:


> I hadn't thought of that.
> 
> It makes me wonder what Julia Gillard will actually do.




That's an easy question to answer. 
Julia Gillard will do whatever is in her own personal best interest.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Peter Garrett, one of Julia Gillard's loyalists has decided to gut high school education in Victoria, in a forlorn attempt to put this budget in to surplus.

Young people's future matter little to this ALP Hierarchy.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/education/garrett-attacks-baillieu-plan-to-go-it-alone-on-gonski-reforms/story-fn59nlz9-1226584131166 



> As foreshadowed in The Weekend Australian today, Mr Baillieu unveiled a plan, to be phased in from next year, that he says will deliver more than $400 million in additional funding to Victorian schools every year.
> 
> The Victorian move came as the federal government opted for a gradual model for increasing school funding, allocating only $1 billion of the Gonski review's proposed $6.5bn annual increase next year.
> 
> Mr Baillieu said today that the state would do a better job for its own education system than the commonwealth's one-size-fits-all approach.




gg


----------



## drsmith

Bintang said:


> That's an easy question to answer.
> Julia Gillard will do whatever is in her own personal best interest.



Then she'll call the election before August 3.


----------



## Julia

Bintang said:


> That's an easy question to answer.
> Julia Gillard will do whatever is in her own personal best interest.



Agree.  If she concludes she is gone anyway, she might prefer to do it with timing that leaves the incoming Abbott government with a hostile Senate.

However, if she were to do that, she will be further trashing what remains of her political capital, especially with the Independents to whom she guaranteed to run full term.

If it were to happen, then I believe Abbott will call a double dissolution election.  The electorate, already thoroughly fed up with all things political, will be unhappy about that, and disposed to punish the Coalition.

Anything could happen.
Best for the Coalition is to avoid encouraging either a return of Rudd or an early election.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> If it were to happen, then I believe Abbott will call a double dissolution election.



He would give what's left of Labor a hell of a lot of stick first to try and bring them to their senses.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Agree.  If she concludes she is gone anyway, she might prefer to do it with timing that leaves the incoming Abbott government with a hostile Senate.
> 
> However, if she were to do that, she will be further trashing what remains of her political capital, especially with the Independents to whom she guaranteed to run full term.
> 
> If it were to happen, then I believe Abbott will call a double dissolution election.  The electorate, already thoroughly fed up with all things political, will be unhappy about that, and disposed to punish the Coalition.
> 
> Anything could happen.
> Best for the Coalition is to avoid encouraging either a return of Rudd or an early election.




Julia, I don't see anywhere, where in recent times the coalition is encouraging a return of Rudd or an early election. There is really nothing to avoid. Abbott is quite content to sit back and watch Labor self destruct. 

It is certainly not in the interest of the coalition to have an election before the 3rd  August as it would create too many problems concerning the senate.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Julia said:


> Agree.  If she concludes she is gone anyway, she might prefer to do it with timing that leaves the incoming Abbott government with a hostile Senate.
> 
> However, if she were to do that, she will be further trashing what remains of her political capital, especially with the Independents to whom she guaranteed to run full term.
> 
> If it were to happen, then I believe Abbott will call a double dissolution election.  The electorate, already thoroughly fed up with all things political, will be unhappy about that, and disposed to punish the Coalition.
> 
> *Anything could happen.*
> Best for the Coalition is to avoid encouraging either a return of Rudd or an early election.




*Vive la revolution!!*

Oh, wait. We live in Nanny Land. Do as you are told now children. That's right. Run along and play now.... :1zhelp:


----------



## dutchie

It seems strange that the MSM has not reported on one of the recommendations of the Gonski report.

Item 512.: We highly recommend that Craig Emerson repeats Primary school (we have assumed
                    that he has done it at least once).

The validity of this item was reinforced recently when Emerson was quoted as saying:
“……Tony Abbott’s relentless negativity,  is relentless “

However we should give Emerson his dues, as he is only trying to follow the Labor script that was outlaid to him in a statement circulated to all Labor ministers.

“Look, we have no successful policies we can use in our promotion and we feel that is best if we use all our resources to state that Tony Abbott is relentlessly negative.  So go forth and spread the message!  (it’s our only chance)”


----------



## explod

dutchie said:


> “Look, we have no successful policies we can use in our promotion and we feel that is best if we use all our resources to state that Tony Abbott is relentlessly negative.  So go forth and spread the message!  (it’s our only chance)”




I have no time for Labor, they have lost all credibility and the plot whatever that was in the maze.

But I cannot  accept that they would issue a communique to members in that wording.  I believe you are putting up unsubstantiated propoganda.


----------



## dutchie

explod said:


> I have no time for Labor, they have lost all credibility and the plot whatever that was in the maze.
> 
> But I cannot  accept that they would issue a communique to members in that wording.  I believe you are putting up unsubstantiated propoganda.




Sorry explod but you misunderstood.

The whole post, like the government, is a joke.


----------



## noco

explod said:


> I have no time for Labor, they have lost all credibility and the plot whatever that was in the maze.
> 
> But I cannot  accept that they would issue a communique to members in that wording.  I believe you are putting up unsubstantiated propoganda.




Wake up explod!!!!! The Labor MPs get their parrott lines issued to them every day or haven't you observed?

You have to listen to various interviews on the media to pick up on that one.


----------



## bunyip

A mate was telling me that the ALP in WA have told Gillard to stay away from WA in the run up to that state’s election in a couple of weeks.
I wonder why??? LOL


----------



## bunyip

Can anyone tell me...........Now that Gillard has announced the election date in September, is she at liberty to change to a different date if she chooses?


----------



## Country Lad

bunyip said:


> Can anyone tell me...........Now that Gillard has announced the election date in September, is she at liberty to change to a different date if she chooses?




Yes


----------



## MrBurns

From another forum - 



> email circular going around...
> 
> Did you know the following ? About the : Federal Minister for Health :
> 
> While Gillard and her ministers throw allegations around that Tony Abbott might have punched a wall 36 years ago, Federal Labor Health Minister Tanya Plibersek's husband, Michael Coutts-Trotter's past is on the record. Very few of the general voting public would know who Plibersek's husband is - let alone know of his past criminal activity. Coutts-Trotter was a heroin addict and drug importer and dealer. 27 years ago he copped a nine year jail sentence, for his efforts.  Gillard  should throw the dirt files away or a lot worse could be heaped on her and her grubby government's criminal past and links with crime.
> 
> It is on the record that the Federal Minister for Health's Plibersek’s husband received a 9-year gaol sentence for conspiracy to import and sell drugs. He was convicted in 1986. Only 12 years later he was appointed Chief of Staff to the NSW Treasurer in the days of the Carr NSW government having no experience apart from some training in journalism .
> 
> He was, also under Labor, the Director-General of Education & Training (Labor must consider drug dealing a good background for the head of education) and earlier still, Director-General of Dept of Commerce.
> 
> And in case you think this is some more bull**** check out Wikipedia. How would the Canberra press handle a comment on this bloke? Oh, I forgot, he is a journalist.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Coutts-Trotter


----------



## drsmith

Tomorrow's Newspoll will be interesting.

Essential Media now has the Coalition at 56% 2PP.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport



MrBurns said:


> From another forum -



I hope the coalition stay away from this sort of stuff, unless it's an actual member and the evidence is strong.

The Coalition's role now is to argue its case as an alternative government.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Tomorrow's Newspoll will be interesting.
> 
> Essential Media now has the Coalition at 56% 2PP.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport
> 
> 
> I hope the coalition stay away from this sort of stuff, unless it's an actual member and the evidence is strong.
> 
> The Coalition's role now is to argue its case as an alternative government.





Yep their grubby work is done now for the new Tony


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Tomorrow's Newspoll will be interesting.
> 
> Essential Media now has the Coalition at 56% 2PP.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport
> 
> 
> I hope the coalition stay away from this sort of stuff, unless it's an actual member and the evidence is strong.
> 
> The Coalition's role now is to argue its case as an alternative government.




They and the media are already aware no doubt 
His appointments seem dodgy, but they won't need to go there, ther are enough other negatives to sink Gillard.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Yep their grubby work is done now for the new Tony



You better adopt the brace position. Newspoll might come in with the Coalition at 60% 2PP.

That will really set the rats running.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> You better adopt the brace position. Newspoll might come in with the Coalition at 60% 2PP.
> 
> That will really set the rats running.




Gillard wont survive that if it happens.


----------



## drsmith

Burnsie,

No need to correct.  

I've allready done it.



MrBurns said:


> Gillard wont survive the week if that happens.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> I hope the coalition stay away from this sort of stuff, unless it's an actual member and the evidence is strong.



Agree.  Plibersek's husband's past is irrelevant.
It would be stupid, and foolish, of the Coalition to make any reference to this at all.



> The Coalition's role now is to argue its case as an alternative government.



Something they finally appear to be doing.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> You better adopt the brace position. Newspoll might come in with the Coalition at 60% 2PP.
> 
> That will really set the rats running.




Quite possible public seem to be buying the fluff of that booklet Abbott keeps holding up


----------



## MrBurns

IFocus said:


> Quite possible public seem to be buying the fluff of that booklet Abbott keeps holding up




 You're completely out of ammo aren't you, reduced to pathetic wimpering responses

Just admit it, your Labor party is the worst in Australian history, they make Whitlam look successful.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Agree.  Plibersek's husband's past is irrelevant.
> It would be stupid, and foolish, of the Coalition to make any reference to this at all.
> .




I think the fact he was given cushy jobs is a matter for concern but if there was a anything in it the media would have been onto it by now I guess.


----------



## MrBurns

ALP down to 27 so I heard.

LNP up 6


----------



## chops_a_must

MrBurns said:


> You're completely out of ammo aren't you, reduced to pathetic wimpering responses
> 
> Just admit it, your Labor party is the worst in Australian history, they make Whitlam look successful.




I dunno.

The NT CLP have got that one won without a contest.


----------



## MrBurns

#Newspoll Primary Votes: ALP 27 (-2) L/NP 51 (+3) #auspol

going viral on Twitter so could be wrong ???


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> #Newspoll Primary Votes: ALP 27 (-2) L/NP 51 (+3) #auspol
> 
> going viral on Twitter so could be wrong ???




They are wrong. This from The Australian

Primary Vote 31 - 47 virtually unchanged
2PP 45 - 55

*Tony Abbott in lead as Julia Gillard's approval plunges*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...approval-plunges/story-fnc6vkbc-1226585459855


----------



## MrBurns

bellenuit said:


> They are wrong. This from The Australian
> 
> Primary Vote 31 - 47 virtually unchanged
> 2PP 45 - 55
> 
> *Tony Abbott in lead as Julia Gillard's approval plunges*
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...approval-plunges/story-fnc6vkbc-1226585459855




Yes I just found out (don't rely on Twitter)


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> Yes I just found out (don't rely on Twitter)




These figures are now also running on Twitter so don't take as Gospel. Preferred PM, Approval and Disapproval at their job:

pref. PM. Gillard 36(-5) Tony 41(+1). 
Gillard approve 30 (-6), disapp 58 (+6). 
Abbott stagnant 33(-) app to 55(-1) disapp.


----------



## drsmith

With it's stories around this particular Newspoll, The Australian is really dishing it out to Labor now.

Julia Gillard wasn't spared in the ABC's 7:30 show either.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Quite possible public seem to be buying the fluff of that booklet Abbott keeps holding up




No, the public has simply had a belly full of the sleaze, the lies, the smears, the money-wasting, the deceit, the arrogance, the pathetic stupidity, and the economic incompetence that has characterized this ALP government ever since they took office.
At last the public have decided what any intelligent and fair minded person would decide – that Gillard and her motley crew are unfit to govern Australia.


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> No, the public has simply had a belly full of the sleaze, the lies, the smears, the money-wasting, the deceit, the arrogance, the pathetic stupidity, and the economic incompetence that has characterized this ALP government ever since they took office.
> At last the public have decided what any intelligent and fair minded person would decide – that Gillard and her motley crew are unfit to govern Australia.




Well said, I hope you don't mind I've pinched it to slam the lefties at the ABC site.


----------



## Julia

Nick Xenophon's comment on today's Newspoll made me laugh.  He suggested it was more like a funeral notice than a poll result.


----------



## bunyip

MrBurns said:


> Well said, I hope you don't mind I've pinched it to slam the lefties at the ABC site.




Burnsie, you’re more than welcome.....people are just asking to be slammed if they continue to support this pathetic bunch of economic incompetents and compulsive liars who masquerade as a government.


----------



## chops_a_must

Can't wait for this election to be over so then people can get something else to complain about.


----------



## Bintang

chops_a_must said:


> Can't wait for this election to be over so then people can get something else to complain about.




Don't think you will get much respite. Within 6 months of the election people will be complaining about the new government they have just elected.


----------



## chops_a_must

Bintang said:


> Don't think you will get much respite. Within 6 months of the election people will be complaining about the new government they have just elected.




I don't know.

I'm expecting all our country's problems to be solved in this time.


----------



## IFocus

Bintang said:


> Don't think you will get much respite. Within 6 months of the election people will be complaining about the new government they have just elected.




Yep higher tax's and less jobs really looking forward to Abbott.


----------



## IFocus

MrBurns said:


> You're completely out of ammo aren't you, reduced to pathetic wimpering responses
> 
> Just admit it, your Labor party is the worst in Australian history, they make Whitlam look successful.




Not at all you just have to separate the Abbott groupies from the facts everyone is in work, low interest rates, low inflation, low debt levels in the middle of world chaos of the great recession.

Abbott will create mayhem stay tuned even the Essential poll says so.


----------



## MrBurns

IFocus said:


> Not at all you just have to separate the Abbott groupies from the facts everyone is in work, low interest rates, low inflation, low debt levels in the middle of world chaos of the great recession.
> 
> Abbott will create mayhem stay tuned even the Essential poll says so.




No Abbott will inherit mayhem, all carefully prepared by Gillard, Goofy and the team .


----------



## chops_a_must

I work with a Greek man who is new to the country.

He can't work it out. Doesn't understand the contempt we have for our government.

I dislike this ALP government and Gillard fervently, for completely different reasons to most here.

But this sense of mayhem is kind of strange.

Some people might not have visited other parts of the world recently.


----------



## Calliope

chops_a_must said:


> But this sense of mayhem is kind of strange.
> 
> Some people might not have visited other parts of the world recently.




It would indeed be strange if it happened here.

Mayhem:
a : willful and permanent deprivation of a bodily member resulting in the impairment of a person's fighting ability
b : willful and permanent crippling, mutilation, or disfigurement of any part of the body


----------



## bunyip

According to ABC’s 7.30 program tonight, five of Labor’s 10 most marginal seats are in NSW, and three of those five seats are in western Sydney. 
Guess where Gillard is spending the next few days?.....campaigning in western Sydney in the interestingly named Rooty Hill area.
Nearly all of the half dozen or so people interviewed in that area said Gillard is a liar, with one bloke likening her to a car salesman.  
Ju*LIAR* is now starting to pay the price for her dishonesty and lack of integrity.
Clearly she's a desperate woman.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Yep higher tax's and less jobs really looking forward to Abbott.





yeah right - higher taxes to pay off labor's debts and their on-going massive boat arrival expenses. And Virgin losing profits over carbon tax:  Selling the story of the carbon tax impost: Virgin’s half-year results 

Our own electricity bill is 50% higher than this time last year and the only significant thing that has changed is carbon tax.

Stop telling porkies, IF...


And less jobs?  I thought Gillard is rapidly becoming the queen of people losing jobs? Read this: Long-term unemployment highest in two decades

Now, two decades ago would put the last unemployment as bad as this into labor's time.  Looks like more porkies from you, IF?  Are you paid to sprout this sort of propaganda?


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> I work with a Greek man who is new to the country.
> 
> He can't work it out. Doesn't understand the contempt we have for our government.
> 
> I dislike this ALP government and Gillard fervently, for completely different reasons to most here.
> 
> But this sense of mayhem is kind of strange.
> 
> Some people might not have visited other parts of the world recently.




Well if he is new to the country, he wouldn't be in step with the Australian mindset.
As you would know Australians don't shout, scream and burn effigies, unlike Greece.
Australians just wait untill it is their turn, then vote accordingly.

The sense of mayhem isn't strange at all, the Government has run the country the same way as a union is run.
They tell the members what they want to hear, then they do exactly as they like, which doesn't reflect what the membership voted on.
The problem for Labor is, the Australian public hasn't enjoyed been treated like this and as with union membership, the support is falling.
Pretty basic really, there is no turning it around, it will only get worse.IMO


----------



## sails

bunyip said:


> According to ABC’s 7.30 program tonight, five of Labor’s 10 most marginal seats are in NSW, and three of those five seats are in western Sydney.
> Guess where Gillard is spending the next few days?.....campaigning in western Sydney in the interestingly named Rooty Hill area.
> Nearly all of the half dozen or so people interviewed in that area said Gillard is a liar, with one bloke likening her to a car salesman.
> Ju*LIAR* is now starting to pay the price for her dishonesty and lack of integrity.
> Clearly she's a desperate woman.




Even her surname has the letters of 'liar' in it.  Just move the 'i' and you get Gl*liar*d...lol

And staying in a hotel at "Rooty" hill seems to fit her past profile...


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> Well if he is new to the country, he wouldn't be in step with the Australian mindset.
> As you would know Australians don't shout, scream and burn effigies, unlike Greece.
> Australians just wait untill it is their turn, then vote accordingly.
> 
> The sense of mayhem isn't strange at all, the Government has run the country the same way as a union is run.
> They tell the members what they want to hear, then they do exactly as they like, which doesn't reflect what the membership voted on.
> The problem for Labor is, the Australian public hasn't enjoyed been treated like this and as with union membership, the support is falling.
> Pretty basic really, there is no turning it around, it will only get worse.IMO




I agree the end can't come soon enough. And she's thrown her own supporters under the bus.

But I disagree with the doom and gloom and mayhem calls. It only makes sense from a point of perception that has been the Australian life for 20-30 years.

As to the taxes and jobs debate:

We will lose jobs regardless IMO. But more with a conservative government. As displayed by the lnp nationwide. However, this would be at odds with Abbott's own rhetoric which necessitates a big rhetoric for his policies.

Our taxes will increase over the next 20 years. That's nothing to do with government, debt or policy. That's demographics.

But as a low to middle income earner, personally I'm concerned about winding back breaks I've received recently.


----------



## chops_a_must

sails said:


> Our own electricity bill is 50% higher than this time last year and the only significant thing that has changed is carbon tax.




Could be worse. You could live in the terrortory.

Increases in electricity of betweent 30 and 50% on top of the existing, most expensive electricity rate in the country.

Is absolutely massacring business up here.


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> I agree the end can't come soon enough. And she's thrown her own supporters under the bus.
> 
> But I disagree with the doom and gloom and mayhem calls. It only makes sense from a point of perception that has been the Australian life for 20-30 years.
> 
> As to the taxes and jobs debate:
> 
> We will lose jobs regardless IMO. But more with a conservative government. As displayed by the lnp nationwide. However, this would be at odds with Abbott's own rhetoric which necessitates a big rhetoric for his policies.
> 
> Our taxes will increase over the next 20 years. That's nothing to do with government, debt or policy. That's demographics.
> 
> But as a low to middle income earner, personally I'm concerned about winding back breaks I've received recently.




There is no doom and gloom for Australia, untill the resources run out, which won't be in your lifetime.
There will be recessions we have to have, to bring back balance.
I'm not so sure demographics are going to be as big an issue as is being portayed.
We defininitely need to spend more money and force mining companies to spend more money, on developing northern Australia.
As it is at the moment it is a security risk, if we don't take steps to develop it, why wouldn't an Asian country move in on it?


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> There is no doom and gloom for Australia, untill the resources run out, which won't be in your lifetime.
> There will be recessions we have to have, to bring back balance.
> I'm not so sure demographics are going to be as big an issue as is being portayed.
> We defininitely need to spend more money and force mining companies to spend more money, on developing northern Australia.
> As it is at the moment it is a security risk, if we don't take steps to develop it, why wouldn't an Asian country move in on it?




At the moment they don't have to.

They've bought the premier cattle stations in the NT, are funding the next ord expansion, have invested in the Daly and are behind a ramp up of sandalwood in the NT.


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> At the moment they don't have to.
> 
> They've bought the premier cattle stations in the NT, are funding the next ord expansion, have invested in the Daly and are behind a ramp up of sandalwood in the NT.




Exactly, the Chinese are buying it up, Australians refuse to move there. The Labor Government is actively ridiculing it.
Therefore the Chinese will have every justification to bring in their own workforce.
This in turn will cause all monies from the development to flow overseas.LOL

Really dumb, just too stupid for words.

Guess which government has relaxed all overseas ownership rules, this is the dumbest government I have ever seen.
At least Gough had the country at heart, this election is going to be a massive event.IMO


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> Exactly, the Chinese are buying it up, Australians refuse to move there. The Labor Government is actively ridiculing it.
> Therefore the Chinese will have every justification to bring in their own workforce.
> This in turn will cause all monies from the development to flow overseas.LOL
> 
> Really dumb, just too stupid for words.
> 
> Guess which government has relaxed all overseas ownership rules, this is the dumbest government I have ever seen.
> At least Gough had the country at heart, this election is going to be a massive event.IMO




The ord was a Barnett decision.


----------



## Julia

chops_a_must said:


> I work with a Greek man who is new to the country.
> 
> He can't work it out. Doesn't understand the contempt we have for our government.



That's a somewhat disingenuous comparison.  Pretty much anywhere would be better than Greece!!!
(Italy might be a contender if indeed they re-elect the crook Berlusconi.)



chops_a_must said:


> Could be worse. You could live in the terrortory.
> 
> Increases in electricity of betweent 30 and 50% on top of the existing, most expensive electricity rate in the country.
> 
> Is absolutely massacring business up here.



You might be unaware that an electricity price rise has just been announced for Queensland of almost 22% as  from the new financial year.  This is on top of the increases Sails has already described.

Yes, business is and will be suffering.  I'm possibly most concerned with the thousands of low income earners who have already had their electricity disconnected because they cannot pay the bill.  What happens to them, and all the small businesses struggling already, with such a massive increase?
There's something very much askew with a society where such a basic need as electricity seems to be becoming beyond the reach of many.


----------



## chops_a_must

Julia said:


> That's a somewhat disingenuous comparison.  Pretty much anywhere would be better than Greece!!!
> (Italy might be a contender if indeed they re-elect the crook Berlusconi.)
> 
> 
> You might be unaware that an electricity price rise has just been announced for Queensland of almost 22% as  from the new financial year.  This is on top of the increases Sails has already described.
> 
> Yes, business is and will be suffering.  I'm possibly most concerned with the thousands of low income earners who have already had their electricity disconnected because they cannot pay the bill.  What happens to them, and all the small businesses struggling already, with such a massive increase?
> There's something very much askew with a society where such a basic need as electricity seems to be becoming beyond the reach of many.




Well, I know what's happening here at least. Most people who can, are leaving or about to. Including myself.

At least in Qld your average rent isn't 600pw average.


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> The ord was a Barnett decision.




That's right, he was ridiculed for the pipeline/canal idea. Why wouldn't he encourage investment from China, no one in Australia is interested.
However that doesn't change the fact foriegn ownership and soveriegnty is a Federal Government issue.
They have right of say over the actions of the Foriegn Investment Review Board.
All Barnett is doing is trying to develop the state, it is a shame the federal government are so useless they can't see past their own self serving ends.IMO


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> That's right, he was ridiculed for the pipeline/canal idea. Why wouldn't he encourage investment from China, no one in Australia is interested.
> However that doesn't change the fact foriegn ownership and soveriegnty is a Federal Government issue.
> They have right of say over the actions of the Foriegn Investment Review Board.
> All Barnett is doing is trying to develop the state, it is a shame the federal government are so useless they can't see past their own self serving ends.IMO




There's a disconnect in the logic there.


----------



## Julia

chops_a_must said:


> Well, I know what's happening here at least. Most people who can, are leaving or about to. Including myself.



Bon voyage.



> At least in Qld your average rent isn't 600pw average.



Are you sure?  A house in my street, in a low employment, low socioeconomic regional centre, rents for nearly 
$500 p.w.  Brisbane eg would be a lot more.


----------



## chops_a_must

Julia said:


> Bon voyage.
> 
> 
> Are you sure?  A house in my street, in a low employment, low socioeconomic regional centre, rents for nearly
> $500 p.w.  Brisbane eg would be a lot more.




Unfortunately for you Julia, I'm not leaving Australia. 

And nah, Darwin is the most expensive, or second most expensive capital to buy or rent, depending upon which metric you use.

Also the most crowded, and highest proportion of units.

Lowest vacancy rates as well. It's the equivalent of a karatha/ port headland situation.


----------



## Julia

chops_a_must said:


> Unfortunately for you Julia, I'm not leaving Australia.



Neither fortunate or unfortunate as far as I'm concerned.  You did, however, give the impression in a previous post that you were planning to leave.


> Most people who can, are leaving or about to. Including myself.


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> There's a disconnect in the logic there.




Yes that's probably because we are a Federation of States.

Your point is?


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Gittens is a fair writer based of solid arguments and facts IMHO.




I love how you think Gittens, by the way it's Gittins, is a great reporter of political merit.

He isn't talking up much these days.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/socie...-in-touch-while-on-the-go-20130226-2f3wr.html

At last he is talking on his field of expertise.


----------



## bunyip

sails said:


> And staying in a hotel at "Rooty" hill seems to fit her past profile...




LOL - I hadn't thought of that.
I did, however, think that maybe she's staying at Rooty Hill because she's roo**d according to the polls!


----------



## bunyip

chops_a_must said:


> Well, I know what's happening here at least. Most people who can, are leaving or about to. Including myself.
> 
> At least in Qld your average rent isn't 600pw average.




So where are you going to, Chops - moving interstate or staying in the Territory?
One of my kids is at uni in Darwin.....she loves living up there, but does find the costs very high.


----------



## Calliope

Gillard switches from "days of governing" to "days of campaigning".



> Ms Gillard told the National Press Club last month, when she named the election date for September 14: "I do not do so to start the nation's longest election campaign. Quite the opposite, it should be clear to all which are the days of governing and which are the days of campaigning.



" 





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-western-sydney/story-fn59niix-1226586410041


----------



## Calliope

A foretaste of things to come.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...launch-attack-ad/story-fn59niix-1226586746590


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> A foretaste of things to come.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...launch-attack-ad/story-fn59niix-1226586746590




I can't see the point of that ad. In the short excerpts, none of the Labor politicians are heard to be saying that they are talking about their own party. Though we know from the brief introductory script that it is somehow related to Rudd's challenge, they could well be referring to the Coalition or almost about anything else when they speak. And even if one knew that it was about Rudd's challenge, then what's the point. He was unsuccessful.

The only thing I can think of is that it is providing a foretaste to Labor as to what to expect should they reinstall Rudd.


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> I can't see the point of that ad. In the short excerpts, none of the Labor politicians are heard to be saying that they are talking about their own party. Though we know from the brief introductory script that it is somehow related to Rudd's challenge, they could well be referring to the Coalition or almost about anything else when they speak. And even if one knew that it was about Rudd's challenge, then what's the point. He was unsuccessful.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that it is providing a foretaste to Labor as to what to expect should they reinstall Rudd.



Yes, it seems to miss the mark and is just a bit confusing.  Perhaps the printed words on screen at the end would be better appearing at the start?


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Yes, it seems to miss the mark and is just a bit confusing.  Perhaps the printed words on screen at the end would be better appearing at the start?




The printed words at the beginning explains it all. The u-tube is just a reminder what those Ministers said about Kevin Rudd at the time.

Pretty clear to me.


----------



## drsmith

I got a Liberal flyer in the post today on Labor's border protection failures.

One wonders if the Libs are sniffing an election well before September.


----------



## MrBurns

[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/LiberalPartyTV[/video]


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> I got a Liberal flyer in the post today on Labor's border protection failures.
> 
> One wonders if the Libs are sniffing an election well before September.




I wondered the same thing when I saw large hillboards go up in my area for the coalition candidates, they're definitely champing at the bit around here!


----------



## dutchie

The pressure is building. This women is getting crazier and crazier.

Labor governing, not campaigning: Gillard

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-...g-not-campaigning-gillard-20130227-2f63n.html


----------



## bunyip

dutchie said:


> The pressure is building. This women is getting crazier and crazier.
> 
> Labor governing, not campaigning: Gillard
> 
> http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-...g-not-campaigning-gillard-20130227-2f63n.html




It's patently obvious that even some members of the government think Gillard is one sandwich short of a picnic. 
The woman has the IQ of a meat pie.


----------



## waza1960

I think it would have been better for Gillard and rest of us if she just went on an overseas jaunt until she gets removed from her job


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> It's patently obvious that even some members of the government think Gillard is one sandwich short of a picnic.
> The woman has the IQ of a meat pie.




Yes she's very close to losing it if not already loopy.:bad:


----------



## drsmith

Rooty hill ? :screwy:

What's Labor going to do to stage manage this ?

Keep the locals out ??


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Rooty hill ? :screwy:
> 
> What's Labor going to do to stage manage this ?
> 
> Keep the locals out ??




I suspect she might be received badly, the media will be there to record it for sure.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I suspect she might be received badly, the media will be there to record it for sure.



Whoever's advising her is working for someone else.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Whoever's advising her is working for someone else.




I wonder if she does take advice or is just so arrogant she makes all these decisions herself.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Rooty hill ? :screwy:
> 
> What's Labor going to do to stage manage this ?
> 
> Keep the locals out ??




No, probably bring the heavies in.lol
Sprinkle them through the crowd.lol


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> I wonder if she does take advice or is just so arrogant she makes all these decisions herself.



I'd be surprised if she were not acting on advice from her campaign manager, McTiernan.  But his problem is that he's a Scotsman, unfamiliar until recently with Australian politics.
That said, it's pretty amazing that he (and Gillard herself) cannot see how much of a stunt this will appear to be to the electorate.

There is much to criticise about the Prime Minister, but for me, the most important aspect of this is her apparently endless capacity to underrate the intelligence of the voters.  Does she really think the denizens of Western Sydney will suddenly imagine that she cares about them?  I doubt it.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> I'd be surprised if she were not acting on advice from her campaign manager, McTiernan.  But his problem is that he's a Scotsman, unfamiliar until recently with Australian politics.
> That said, it's pretty amazing that he (and Gillard herself) cannot see how much of a stunt this will appear to be to the electorate.
> 
> There is much to criticise about the Prime Minister, but for me, the most important aspect of this is her apparently endless capacity to underrate the intelligence of the voters.  Does she really think the denizens of Western Sydney will suddenly imagine that she cares about them?  I doubt it.




This has failure written all over it already, it's like Abbott always said..........she has no judgement.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I'd be surprised if she were not acting on advice from her campaign manager, McTiernan.  But his problem is that he's a Scotsman, unfamiliar until recently with Australian politics.
> That said, it's pretty amazing that he (and Gillard herself) cannot see how much of a stunt this will appear to be to the electorate.
> 
> There is much to criticise about the Prime Minister, but for me, the most important aspect of this is her apparently endless capacity to underrate the intelligence of the voters.  Does she really think the denizens of Western Sydney will suddenly imagine that she cares about them?  I doubt it.




I recently went back to U.K. I hadn't been there since I was 8 years old.
The HUGE difference I saw was the social class distinction, this runs through their fibre.
As I said in an earlier post, the Gillard spray on Abbott for sexism was outrageous, Australia has moved past that.
I don't know U.K has.
I think McTiernan got them on the same song sheet, it just wasn't the right one.
Tony's negative, Tony's to blame, Tony's a loser. Tony's got no policy, Tony's why we can't be a better government, Tony won't pass our agenda.
At the end of the day Tony is in opposition, best they focus on their achievements, however people saving like hell, probably indicates they won't believe them

Australians aren't dumb, that's why union membership is at an all time low.
Yet the government of the day are pandering to them, best of luck with that.


----------



## bellenuit

Julia/sptrawler

I presume you mean McTernan, not McTiernan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McTernan


----------



## Logique

dutchie said:


> The pressure is building. This women is getting crazier and crazier.
> Labor governing, not campaigning: Gillard
> http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-...g-not-campaigning-gillard-20130227-2f63n.html



Mercy rule. How many more "I'm not stupid you know" 's can this PM take without tarnishing the high office of PM?

"There is an anti-Labor mood, but it is eminently recoverable," says our exalted former Premier Mr Carr to Fairfax Media.  As NSW still struggles to recover from his leadership.

Bill Shorten show some compassion, and put an end to this comedy opera, which I'll stop short of calling Madame Butterfly.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

bellenuit said:


> Julia/sptrawler
> 
> I presume you mean McTernan, not McTiernan
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McTernan




re Julia Gillard's chief of staff John McTernan.

Is he in Australia on a 457 visa, and do we have to pay for an interpreter as well.

I find some Scots more difficult to understand than most foreigners.

gg


----------



## dutchie

The Rooty Hill RSL comedy act..

[video]http://meemsy.com/v/7326[/video]


----------



## bunyip

sails said:


> yeah right - higher taxes to pay off labor's debts and their on-going massive boat arrival expenses. And Virgin losing profits over carbon tax:  Selling the story of the carbon tax impost: Virgin’s half-year results
> 
> Our own electricity bill is 50% higher than this time last year and the only significant thing that has changed is carbon tax.
> 
> Stop telling porkies, IF...
> 
> 
> And less jobs?  I thought Gillard is rapidly becoming the queen of people losing jobs? Read this: Long-term unemployment highest in two decades
> 
> 
> Now, two decades ago would put the last unemployment as bad as this into labor's time.  Looks like more porkies from you, IF?  Are you paid to sprout this sort of propaganda?





Our friend IF has a prodigious talent for making wildly exaggerated claims that he can’t substantiate, as he demonstrated in another thread in which Calliope and I had lots of fun debating him. 
We’ve just gotta make allowances for him.


----------



## Mickel

dutchie said:


> The Rooty Hill RSL comedy act..
> 
> [video]http://meemsy.com/v/7326[/video]




LOL!!! LOL !!! Love it ! Marvelous script . Also love the comparison to the other character who also was living in fantasy land.


----------



## sails

bunyip said:


> Our friend IF has a prodigious talent for making wildly exaggerated claims that he can’t substantiate, as he demonstrated in another thread in which Calliope and I had lots of fun debating him.
> We’ve just gotta make allowances for him.




Yeah, you are right, Bunyip...
Will try to make the necessary allowances!


----------



## bunyip

The thing I’ve always found both amusing and pathetic is the way that Labor voters keep on believing the ALP is the party that looks after workers. (although to their credit, many Labor voters have seen the light by turning against the ALP in recent times.)
Yet there’s still a hard core of Labor diehards who persist in the misguided belief that if you’re a working person then Labor is the only party that will look after your best interests. 
We see union boss Paul Howes on TV the other night sticking up for Gillard as if she’s some kind of messiah who’s the saviour of working people. He ripped into members of her government for turning against her, calling them ‘a bunch of gutless pricks’. 
I just about burst out laughing when he declared in an unimpressive attempt at bravado...... “Prime minister – WE’VE GOT YOUR BACK”. 
This clown Howes has been watching too many gangster movies – he seems to fancy himself and his union pals as some kind of Mafia style bodyguards!  I get the impression that no matter what Labor does that hurts workers (and they’ve done plenty so far) Howes will still get that starry-eyed look of adulation wherever Gillard is concerned.

I’d love to see some rusted on Labor supporter explaining how the ALP is looking after workers by introducing tax burdens such as the carbon tax. 
As this tax starts to bite we’re seeing companies being forced to tighten their belts by looking for cheaper ways of doing business, moving jobs offshore, closing down mines that are only marginally profitable, and so on. Not to mention the massive hikes in electricity prices, at least part of which is attributable to the carbon tax. 
How these consequences of Labor's actions are of benefit to Australian workers is beyond me – maybe some Labor voter can explain it to me.


----------



## drsmith

Meanwhile, on another front,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...robe-nearing-end/story-fng5kxvh-1226587510191


----------



## bunyip

As much as I dislike Labor governments and Gillard in particular, today she took the commendable step of announcing 17 million dollars of federal funding for flood mitigation in the Queensland towns of Roma and Ipswich.
The skeptic in me wonders if she would have taken this step if we weren’t in an election year. Nevertheless, it’s a good move for these two flood-prone towns that have copped an absolute battering from floods in the last two years in particular, and many other years as well. Hopefully whichever government we have after September will keep this type of initiative going – there are many more flood-prone towns around Queensland and throughout Australia that can be given a fair measure of protection relatively cheaply if federal funds are made available for levee banks and such like.


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> As much as I dislike Labor governments and Gillard in particular, today she took the commendable step of announcing 17 million dollars of federal funding for flood mitigation in the Queensland towns of Roma and Ipswich.
> The skeptic in me wonders if she would have taken this step if we weren’t in an election year. Nevertheless, it’s a good move for these two flood-prone towns that have copped an absolute battering from floods in the last two years in particular, and many other years as well. Hopefully whichever government we have after September will keep this type of initiative going – there are many more flood-prone towns around Queensland and throughout Australia that can be given a fair measure of protection relatively cheaply if federal funds are made available for levee banks and such like.



Gympie, which has flooded, I think, five times in less than two years, got nothing.  It's a very safe National seat, so obviously she sees no point in wasting the money.

On the other hand some large amount is going to doing something at the Warrangamba Dam in Western Sydney, despite apparently, no special need there at present.

I wouldn't be too impressed with any notion that Ms Gillard has suddenly developed a warm and fuzzy regard for particular towns in Qld, bunyip.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Gympie, which has flooded, I think, five times in less than two years, got nothing.  It's a very safe National seat, so obviously she sees no point in wasting the money.




This year's Gympie floods would not have occurred if the Gillard government, in bed with the dam-hating Greens, hadn't scuttled the building of the flood mitigating Traveston dam on the Mary river on environmental grounds. So the people of Gympie can blame an ar$e-breathing frog for all their woes.


----------



## sails

It seems that Ms Gillard is, once again, copycatting the coalition's policies.  Abbott no sooner brings out a discussion paper on developing the north which includes dams and within a couple of weeks, Gillard starts announcing dams.  She knew about the floods in 2011 and didn't bother to do anything about it then.

Much like when Abbott announced a welfare policy some time ago,  lo and behold, Gillard comes out with a modified version.

No wonder the coalition can't put their policies out early...and no wonder the labor supporters around here keep taunting for them...


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> It seems that Ms Gillard is, once again, copycatting the coalition's policies.  Abbott no sooner brings out a discussion paper on developing the north which includes dams and within a couple of weeks, Gillard starts announcing dams.  She knew about the floods in 2011 and didn't bother to do anything about it then.
> 
> Much like when Abbott announced a welfare policy some time ago,  lo and behold, Gillard comes out with a modified version.
> 
> No wonder the coalition can't put their policies out early...and no wonder the labor supporters around here keep taunting for them...




I don't think it will make any difference, IMO this will be the biggest 'flogging' in history.
However, if I was Abbott I would give them nothing.
It was only last year they were asking the Australian public, to put forward ideas.


----------



## dutchie

Interesting..

PM Julia Gillard snubs Kevin Rudd at event in his own electorate of Griffith.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...ate-of-griffith/story-fndo1qgd-1226587998279#


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Gympie, which has flooded, I think, five times in less than two years, got nothing.  It's a very safe National seat, so obviously she sees no point in wasting the money.
> 
> On the other hand some large amount is going to doing something at the Warrangamba Dam in Western Sydney, despite apparently, no special need there at present.
> 
> I wouldn't be too impressed with any notion that Ms Gillard has suddenly developed a warm and fuzzy regard for particular towns in Qld, bunyip.




Oh, I’m not getting too impressed, Julia, I can assure you. As I said, I wonder if she would have announced this if it wasn’t an election year. There have been a number of severe floods in these towns during Labor’s reign, but they choose now, an election year, to do something about it.
I think we’ve all seen enough of Gillard’s style to know that she usually has an ulterior motive. Nevertheless it’s a step in the right direction for two towns that are badly flood-prone, and I’m pleased to see Labor doing something worthwhile for a change – ulterior motive or not.


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> PM Julia Gillard snubs Kevin Rudd at event in his own electorate of Griffith.



That's just really bad manners and will earn her no friends.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> The thing I’ve always found both amusing and pathetic is the way that Labor voters keep on believing the ALP is the party that looks after workers. (although to their credit, many Labor voters have seen the light by turning against the ALP in recent times.)
> Yet there’s still a hard core of Labor diehards who persist in the misguided belief that if you’re a working person then Labor is the only party that will look after your best interests.
> We see union boss Paul Howes on TV the other night sticking up for Gillard as if she’s some kind of messiah who’s the saviour of working people. He ripped into members of her government for turning against her, calling them ‘a bunch of gutless pricks’.
> I just about burst out laughing when he declared in an unimpressive attempt at bravado...... “Prime minister – WE’VE GOT YOUR BACK”.
> This clown Howes has been watching too many gangster movies – he seems to fancy himself and his union pals as some kind of Mafia style bodyguards!  I get the impression that no matter what Labor does that hurts workers (and they’ve done plenty so far) Howes will still get that starry-eyed look of adulation wherever Gillard is concerned.
> 
> I’d love to see some rusted on Labor supporter explaining how the ALP is looking after workers by introducing tax burdens such as the carbon tax.
> As this tax starts to bite we’re seeing companies being forced to tighten their belts by looking for cheaper ways of doing business, moving jobs offshore, closing down mines that are only marginally profitable, and so on. Not to mention the massive hikes in electricity prices, at least part of which is attributable to the carbon tax.
> How these consequences of Labor's actions are of benefit to Australian workers is beyond me – maybe some Labor voter can explain it to me.




Work Non Choices...............enough said


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Work Non Choices...............enough said




Is that it?...lol

I could write many lines of things I don't like about THIS brand labor (is it really labor or has it been hijacked?)...

Almost 35,000 boat arrivals since labor took over (now how many policy failures is that by Gillard's own definition?)

$20 billion cash in bank in 2007 to $260 billion NOW in gross debt?

Our own electricity bill is now 50% higher than it was same time last year equating to several hundred more dollars each year in costs and the only significant change has been carbon tax.

Jobs being lost by the hundred at the moment (Rosella factory another casualty) and you are carrying on about work choices?  At least people had jobs under work choices.

And that's only for starters...

Sorry Bunyip, but IF is being way too silly by far...


----------



## Logique

In a poll taken in four key western Sydney electorates by Fairfax Media/ReachTEL, the message could not be more stark. Voters want Rudd, and the seats could be saved if he became leader.   

It is unheard of that safe Labor seats could go, Werriwa for example is Gough Whitlam's old seat.



> http://www.smh.com.au/data-point/wipeout-in-the-west-voters-want-rudd-20130301-2fbru.html
> ...It raises the prospect of double-digit swings in NSW, sending even MPs on margins of 12 per cent to the jobless queues.
> 
> The devastating snapshot of voter sentiment comes before a five-day swing through marginal western Sydney electorates by the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, from Sunday and suggests *life-long Labor voters in traditional ALP strongholds are prepared to dispatch her government*.
> 
> In results certain to increase the pressure for a leadership change, the exclusive Fairfax Media/ReachTEL automated poll, taken in four safe Labor electorates in the city's sprawling west, has found much of Labor's collapse can be directly attributed to negative perceptions of Ms Gillard's leadership..


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Is that it?...lol
> 
> I could write many lines of things I don't like about THIS brand labor (is it really labor or has it been hijacked?)...
> 
> Almost 35,000 boat arrivals since labor took over (now how many policy failures is that by Gillard's own definition?)
> 
> $20 billion cash in bank in 2007 to $260 billion NOW in gross debt?
> 
> Our own electricity bill is now 50% higher than it was same time last year equating to several hundred more dollars each year in costs and the only significant change has been carbon tax.
> 
> Jobs being lost by the hundred at the moment (Rosella factory another casualty) and you are carrying on about work choices?  At least people had jobs under work choices.
> 
> And that's only for starters...
> 
> Sorry Bunyip, but IF is being way too silly by far...




I worked on both sides during work choices and it had by far the most insidious impact I have ever seen on work force in more than 40 years of my working life particularly UN-Australian. 

Your precious Coalition will bring these laws in incrementally in the future for what? The benefit of working Australians, productivity increases? 

Go to the US and tell me how well the middle class is doing...............yep they make less now than they did in the 90's stay tuned thats yours and your kids future coming to you soon.

Your claims on electricity charge increases are due to the Carbon Tax and not the state governments are at best unusual as the subject has been covered to death except of course by the extreme right wing press / blogs / Abbott and co.

I suspect unemployment is likely to have been no different under Howard than Labor but of course Howard didn't have the great recession and a very high Australian $ however Howard did have one of the biggest expansions in revenue and largest asset sales in the history of our federation still you would know all that. 

If the corrupt East Coast of Australia stopped winging just for a second and did some real work for a change then who knows?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Nicholsons cartoon in The Australian recently says it all.

A condescending, patronising exercise by Julia Gillard, which demeans the people of Western Sydney.

And this, after she said she would govern and not electioneer until August.





gg


----------



## wayneL

Excuses excuses.

The point is IF, these cretins have made things very much worse than they need be.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Excuses excuses.
> 
> The point is IF, these cretins have made things very much worse than they need be.




I am just trying all be it not very well to add some balance to these threads, I am not that fussed about government's changing except that in this instance it will mean an Abbott PM which is very serious. 

WA state government (Liberals / Nats) while a bunch of complete dunderheads actually haven't been to bad since Barney is really the government. Compared to the Eastern seaboard conservative governments who have really been non performers including Newman.

A friend the other day asked me if I and all our other friends were better off now than 6 years ago, I said we were all hugely better off now in wealth etc, he said I guess that makes Abbott a tosser.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> If the corrupt East Coast of Australia stopped winging just for a second and did some real work for a change then who knows?




Yep, we’re all corrupt lazy whingeing bastards over here on the east coast! LOL
But then, I seem to recall you whining and whingeing about the Barnett government in WA....so maybe there’s a whinger or two in WA as well?

Never mind IF....when or if Tony Abbot gets in you or somebody else will probably start a thread titled ‘The Abbot Government’, and you lefties can get stuck into Abbot just like we’re getting stuck into Gillard!


----------



## drsmith

I'd start the Abbott Government thread right now in expectation of the end of a very dark night, but the election is still 6-months away. Thats if Julia Gillard keeps her word or Labor don't throw her overboard in the meantime.

Two very big IF's.


----------



## dutchie

Spend *$500 million *on *80,000* Australians needing palliative care.


                                            Or


Spend *$8 billion* on *8,000* illegal boat people.




Where would *you* like the government to spend your tax?


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> ...Your precious Coalition...




Oh how silly is that...I just want this 'labor' government out.  Nothing precious about the coalition at all - they will have their policies I won't like, but they are the ONLY alternative to the awful mess we have now.

I think labor has been hijacked.  It is no longer the labor party of days gone by, imo.  

IF, your feeble protests about work choices are going to fall on deaf ears of those who have lost their jobs because of carbon tax and other policies.  While  work choices wasn't perfect, at least people had jobs.  I doubt very much the coalition would swing the pendulum so far that way again - although, of course, you will try to make it look like they will without a shred of substantiation that they will actually do so.  And that's called propaganda...


----------



## Calliope

> After Real Julia, knitting Julia, full-forward Julia, and anti-misogynist Julia, Rooty Hill Julia won't rub. The trouble with authenticity is, it is difficult to fake.







http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...y-hill-sleepover/story-e6frg6n6-1226588013802

And don't forget the be-spectacled motherly Julia.


----------



## chops_a_must

sails said:


> IF, your feeble protests about work choices are going to fall on deaf ears of those who have lost their jobs because of carbon tax and other policies.  While  work choices wasn't perfect, at least people had jobs.  I doubt very much the coalition would swing the pendulum so far that way again - although, of course, you will try to make it look like they will without a shred of substantiation that they will actually do so.  And that's called propaganda...




Would certainly hope not.

Was working on a work choices contract for a few months.

Full time shift work, with 1 week annual leave per annum.

No such thing as night shift loading, as we were given an extra 20c an hour on our base rate.


----------



## Calliope

chops_a_must said:


> Was working on a work choices contract for a few months.
> Full time shift work, with 1 week annual leave per annum.




As Mark Twain said;

"Let us be thankful for the fools; but for them the rest of us could not succeed."


----------



## noco

It has never ceased to amaze me with Labor and the unions over the years they have fought and often gone on strike for outrageuos demands which has added to industry costs to the point whereby they cannot compete with overseas products resulting in many closures and job loses.

Yes they won 38 and then 36 hour weeks, 9 day fortight, rostered days off, penalty rates, 4 weeks annual leave with 17% loading etc.etc. and where has it got them? Add to this the recent Carbon tax which has affected every industry either directly or indirectly.

All these goodies are ok when productivity is high and the counrty could afford it but times have changed and now things are not so good the unions still want more and to hell with what it costs industry or jobs. Yes the Labor Party and the unions were essential in years gone by but were ruined when the communist party dominated the union affairs in the 1950's and 60's. Do you see the unions in recent times running to help an industry on their knees? No they would sooner winge about the closer and stick out their grubby hands for what ever they can get. One time it was a fair days work for a fair days pay. Not any more.

If every worker in this country had any love for their country instead of being lazy selfish ba*tard$, they would go back to working 40 hours per week at the same rate of weekly pay as their 36 hours,slightly less hourly rates, drop the holidays from 4 weeks to 3 weeks without the 17% loading and drop the weekend penalty rates. There are lots of workers in the hospitality who work weekends on roster at the same hourly rate of week days. 40 hours work a week never killed anyone.

Yes, I know I will get a blasting from the ASF lefties but I will include them in the selfish lazy ba$ta*d$ when they do.


----------



## chops_a_must

noco said:


> If every worker in this country had any love for their country instead of being lazy selfish ba*tard$, they would go back to working 40 hours per week at the same rate of weekly pay as their 36 hours,slightly less hourly rates, drop the holidays from 4 weeks to 3 weeks without the 17% loading and drop the weekend penalty rates. There are lots of workers in the hospitality who work weekends on roster at the same hourly rate of week days. 40 hours work a week never killed anyone.
> 
> Yes, I know I will get a blasting from the ASF lefties but I will include them in the selfish lazy ba$ta*d$ when they do.




Since when did love for your country equate with love for your employer?

The stats also refute your point. Australians work some of the longest hours in the developed world.

I'd prefer people to spend the time to raise their kids properly, play sport, get involved with local clubs and organisations, and be a member of the community, not just a worker in the community.

Because the research shows that wherever working hours increase in an area, volunteering rates decrease.

There are many facets to Australian life and culture. And I hope we never lose what actually makes this place great - people's commitment to a purposeful, rounded life that is beneficial to multiple areas.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> WA state government (Liberals / Nats) while a bunch of complete dunderheads actually haven't been to bad since Barney is really the government. Compared to the Eastern seaboard conservative governments who have really been non performers including Newman.



Campbell Newman has only recently taken over the reins of Government in Queensland. He inherited an enormous economic mess from Anna Bligh’s Labor government, much as Tony Abbot will inherit the economic mess created by Rudd and Gillard if he wins government in September. 

Newman has already taken significant steps to clean up the mess - steps that I believe will greatly benefit our state in the future.

In your opinion, IF....
* What has Newman done that you think he should not have done?
* What hasn’t Newman done that you think he should have done?


----------



## bunyip

noco said:


> It has never ceased to amaze me with Labor and the unions over the years they have fought and often gone on strike for outrageuos demands which has added to industry costs to the point whereby they cannot compete with overseas products resulting in many closures and job loses.
> 
> Yes they won 38 and then 36 hour weeks, 9 day fortight, rostered days off, penalty rates, 4 weeks annual leave with 17% loading etc.etc. and where has it got them? Add to this the recent Carbon tax which has affected every industry either directly or indirectly.
> 
> All these goodies are ok when productivity is high and the counrty could afford it but times have changed and now things are not so good the unions still want more and to hell with what it costs industry or jobs. Yes the Labor Party and the unions were essential in years gone by but were ruined when the communist party dominated the union affairs in the 1950's and 60's. Do you see the unions in recent times running to help an industry on their knees? No they would sooner winge about the closer and stick out their grubby hands for what ever they can get. One time it was a fair days work for a fair days pay. Not any more.
> 
> If every worker in this country had any love for their country instead of being lazy selfish ba*tard$, they would go back to working 40 hours per week at the same rate of weekly pay as their 36 hours,slightly less hourly rates, drop the holidays from 4 weeks to 3 weeks without the 17% loading and drop the weekend penalty rates. There are lots of workers in the hospitality who work weekends on roster at the same hourly rate of week days. 40 hours work a week never killed anyone.
> 
> Yes, I know I will get a blasting from the ASF lefties but I will include them in the selfish lazy ba$ta*d$ when they do.




Noco

Was it you who voted against Howard and for Rudd? Or do I have you confused with some other ASF poster?


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> Campbell Newman has only recently taken over the reins of Government in Queensland. He inherited an enormous economic mess from Anna Bligh’s Labor government, much as Tony Abbot will inherit the economic mess created by Rudd and Gillard if he wins government in September.
> 
> Newman has already taken significant steps to clean up the mess - steps that I believe will greatly benefit our state in the future.
> 
> In your opinion, IF....
> * What has Newman done that you think he should not have done?
> * What hasn’t Newman done that you think he should have done?




Newman as opposition leaders do made a lot of noise about how bad things are what he was gunna do to make it all better.

Basically he has done very little except bring in Costello to made over blown claims of the states debt position, bash homosexuals and increase the unemployment rate none of which will solve the states debt problems which I might point out is the same situations for each of the other corrupt lazy eastern seaboard states.

Queensland like the federal government is facing revenue short falls reality is he cannot do much at all.


----------



## IFocus

noco said:


> Yes they won 38 and then 36 hour weeks, 9 day fortight, rostered days off, penalty rates, 4 weeks annual leave with 17% loading etc.etc. and where has it got them? Add to this the recent Carbon tax which has affected every industry either directly or indirectly.



Maybe the case over on the lazy eastern sates but here in WA I don't know single person / union member that works for any of those conditions / hours.

Maybe you would prefer the US model where the minimum wage is $9/hr and unemployment 9%, middle income rates less than in the 90's but corporate profits at just about all time highs.


----------



## DB008

IFocus said:


> Basically he has...increase the unemployment rate




I try to stay out of these political threads, but this is just a load of BS IF, and you know it!

Trimming the fat on a bloated public sector, which the public voted for in the election, then the militant unions do some marches through Brisbane because their members lost their jobs. Give me a break.

I'd also like the see how many people Gillard has working for her (her staff levels).

I bet you it'd be more than Howard had.


----------



## noco

chops_a_must said:


> Since when did love for your country equate with love for your employer?
> 
> The stats also refute your point. Australians work some of the longest hours in the developed world.
> 
> I'd prefer people to spend the time to raise their kids properly, play sport, get involved with local clubs and organisations, and be a member of the community, not just a worker in the community.
> 
> Because the research shows that wherever working hours increase in an area, volunteering rates decrease.
> 
> There are many facets to Australian life and culture. And I hope we never lose what actually makes this place great - people's commitment to a purposeful, rounded life that is beneficial to multiple areas.




Mate, I was talking about an extra 2 to 4 hours per week.That would not hurt any worker if he was patriotic to  his country. I was a salaried worker who was paid on results and the 50 to 60 hour a week I put into my job never killed me and some days were over 12 hours. I still found time to be an active member of Rotary and played squash three times a week.

I am a great Grand father and still working as it helps to stay me alive. I know people who retire at 55 an 60 who have retired and they deteriorate very quickly. I keep working as it help me to stay active. 

So don't talk crap.


----------



## Macquack

Noco, there is no such thing as unemployment, if you are prepared to work for nothing.

Feel free to work for nothing, but don't expect everybody to join you.


----------



## chops_a_must

noco said:


> Mate, I was talking about an extra 2 to 4 hours per week.That would not hurt any worker if he was patriotic to  his country. I was a salaried worker who was paid on results and the 50 to 60 hour a week I put into my job never killed me and some days were over 12 hours. I still found time to be an active member of Rotary and played squash three times a week.
> 
> I am a great Grand father and still working as it helps to stay me alive. I know people who retire at 55 an 60 who have retired and they deteriorate very quickly. I keep working as it help me to stay active.
> 
> So don't talk crap.




Maybe it would.

Maybe it's the difference between taking a son to footy training, or coaching a sports team. And not.

Long hours certainly have an impact on volunteers at the clubs I'm a part of.

And an extra few hours of work WOULD impact when we work some of the longest hours going around.

We have problems with underemployment as it is, so there isn't the work there to do at the moment.

Your argument doesn't stack up to the stats and facts.


----------



## IFocus

DB008 said:


> I'd also like the see how many people Gillard has working for her (her staff levels).
> 
> I bet you it'd be more than Howard had.





Lets talk consultants



> The Finance Department's own data on consultancy spending, collated by financial year, shows the government has spent an average of $486 million a year since 2007-08.
> 
> *A spokeswoman noted this was considerably less than the $535 million the Howard government spent on consultants in 2006-07*.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/publ...s-on-advice-20120319-1vg4v.html#ixzz2MTXyOMCv

Howard government spending on advertising is still the record as I understand it.




> THE Gillard government has slashed spending on outside policy advisers, as part of an unprecedented squeeze on senior public servants to repair Labor's fiscal position.
> 
> Analysis by The Australian has found that commonwealth departments and agencies spent $417 million on consultants in 2011-12, an annual decrease of 5.7 per cent, as Canberra's bureaucracy-wide efficiency drive also hit travel, printing, training and recruitment expenses.






> Taking inflation into account, commonwealth spending on consultants has plunged by 20 per cent over the past two years.






> In 2006-07, its final full year in office, the Howard government spent $511m on consultancies. In today's dollars that would be $589m.





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...outside-advisers/story-fn59niix-1226543394620


----------



## sptrawler

Well Ifocus, work choices, was Howards stuff up.

The 'misogyny' speach has stuffed Gillard.IMO

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...ters-turning-from-gillard-20130302-2fd24.html

Only my thoughts, but I think she lost a lot of female voters with that spray.lol

Australia isn't England, it was just a huge stuff up a hole she can't fill. Bad call, bad taste, bad advice.lol

It would have to be one of the biggest miscalculations in our political history. 
First female Prime Minister, goes feral on the opposition leader, who has daughters and female heads of staff.
Also in a country that has a strong pro female agenda thriving. 
Dumb and Dumber, sums up this government.


----------



## pilots

sptrawler said:


> Well Ifocus, work choices, was Howards stuff up.
> 
> The 'misogyny' speach has stuffed Gillard.IMO
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...ters-turning-from-gillard-20130302-2fd24.html
> 
> Only my thoughts, but I think she lost a lot of female voters with that spray.lol
> 
> Australia isn't England, it was just a huge stuff up a hole she can't fill. Bad call, bad taste, bad advice.lol
> 
> It would have to be one of the biggest miscalculations in our political history.
> First female Prime Minister, goes feral on the opposition leader, who has daughters and female heads of staff.
> Also in a country that has a strong pro female agenda thriving.
> Dumb and Dumber, sums up this government.




Top post take +10.


----------



## sptrawler

Wel pilots, she said you will now see the real Julia.

I think most people have seen it as very, very nasty


----------



## Calliope

Julia Gillard hates The Australian but she loves the Sydney Morning Herald. I wonder why?



> It is my sincere hope that whatever its format, The Sydney Morning Herald will remain a great newspaper of record, which repays the faith of its readers with quality, integrity and a recognition that with great power also comes great responsibility.
> I warmly wish the Herald every success in its new compact edition.





Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/strug...r-of-record-20130303-2fe9x.html#ixzz2MWdWrFJl


----------



## MrBurns

What a farce and insult to the Australian public, Gillard announces the election date and says it doesnt mean the campaign starts now, then immediately organises a 4 day stunt in Western Sydney with meetings and public events only attended by those screened so they wont throw things at her.

What a sick and cynical person we have as PM and note all her carefully trained lap dogs backing her every move as Governing not campaigning, well good, they are now clearly showing even the dullest in society that they are worthless intruders into Govt.

This country will be in decline if we dont get rid if this vermin quick smart.

Seven Newspoll shows 44% of voters in Western Sydney are less likely to vote Labor as a result of this brilliant piece of strategy by the mistress of poor judgement ....Gillard.


----------



## MrBurns

I heard that after the election Nicola Roxon will be retiring on $5,000 per week for life.

This report says $2.500 

http://www.news.com.au/money/supera...-income-for-life/story-e6frfmdi-1226570330900


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> I heard that after the election Nicola Roxon will be retiring on $5,000 per week for life.
> 
> This report says $2.500
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/money/supera...-income-for-life/story-e6frfmdi-1226570330900




I think you will find that it will be indexed to CPI, for life. Also tax free and commences when she leaves parliament. No waiting till preservation age. 

On another subject. I see Ross Gittins has finally handed out some praise to the coalition, must be a first for him.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/hockey-would-be-no-soft-touch-as-treasurer-20130303-2fegf.html


----------



## Julia

Interesting observations from Ross Gittins.  I can't help wondering with some of these journalists whether - once it becomes pretty obvious that Labor is dead in the water - they decide it's better to be on the winning side.
Perhaps that's unnecessarily cynical on my part.  He says in part


> Hockey is much underestimated. If you've been watching you've seen him progressively donning the onerous responsibilities of the treasurership, the greatest of which is making it all add up.
> 
> He has used his - now less considerable - weight to avoid raising unrealistic expectations and to tone down overly generous promises. You can see him thinking: ''I'm the guy who'll have to find a way to pay for all these commitments. We've made a huge fuss about the need to get the budget back to surplus and it'll be down to me to ensure it happens.''
> 
> In opposition the temptation is to espouse populist solutions that sound good but don't work. As a former cabinet minister, Hockey knows it's hard for governments to get away with such wishful thinking. If you've been listening carefully you'll have noticed Hockey quietly taking an economic rationalist approach while others demonstrated their lack of economic nous.




I agree with him on this.  Joe Hockey seems - along with his new physical image - to have exchanged his former light weight attitude and sometimes irresponsible comments for a measure of gravitas, something that's reassuring.

Let's hope he and his leader have the political courage to not succumb to too much vote buying, something imo the electorate won't say no to, but which they fundamentally despise.  Tony Abbott has made a good start here in insisting the Coalition will abolish the School Kids Bonus.


----------



## noco

Miss Gillard has broken every promise since 2010 and now she has new promises to break again in 2013.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...never_mind_the_last_promises_gillard_has_new/


----------



## Bintang

noco said:


> Miss Gillard has broken every promise since 2010 and now she has new promises to break again in 2013.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...never_mind_the_last_promises_gillard_has_new/




I've finally figured out what Julia Gillard's new year resolution is.  It  must be the same every year:
"I will not tell any more lies"


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> Let's hope he and his leader have the political courage to not succumb to too much vote buying, something imo the electorate won't say no to, but which they fundamentally despise.  Tony Abbott has made a good start here in insisting the Coalition will abolish the School Kids Bonus.




Parental Leave Scheme.


----------



## Logique

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ern-sydney-visit/story-e6freuy9-1226590291268

"..In another awkward moment, Ms Gillard's clothes arrived at Rooty Hill RSL, where she is staying, marked 'Prime Minister's overseas visit'".


----------



## Miss Hale

Logique said:


> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ern-sydney-visit/story-e6freuy9-1226590291268
> 
> "..In another awkward moment, Ms Gillard's clothes arrived at Rooty Hill RSL, where she is staying, marked 'Prime Minister's overseas visit'".




LOL


----------



## dutchie

Logique said:


> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ern-sydney-visit/story-e6freuy9-1226590291268
> 
> "..In another awkward moment, Ms Gillard's clothes arrived at Rooty Hill RSL, where she is staying, marked 'Prime Minister's overseas visit'".




At least it did not say "Prime Minister's visit to a foreign land"


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Newman as opposition leaders do made a lot of noise about how bad things are what he was gunna do to make it all better.
> 
> Basically he has done very little except bring in Costello to made over blown claims of the states debt position, bash homosexuals and increase the unemployment rate none of which will solve the states debt problems



How has Costello bashed homosexuals?
How do you know he made over-blown claims about the state's debt?
On what basis do you claim Costello was brought in to increase the unemployment rate?

No, Costello's findings about the debt situation won't solve anything - solutions will only come via Newman taking decisive action to address the problems. He's already made a good start in that direction by trimming the fat from the public sector.
Recently I spoke to a young bloke who used to work for QBuild, one of the organisations that Newman closed down. This young feller told me...._ “I didn’t like losing my job, nobody ever does. But really, QBuild was a poorly run organisation with some shocking waste in it. I could name you things that went on in there that would make your toenails curl...blokes booking out overtime that they’ve never done, materials being pinched by staff – you’d have to have worked in that show to know just how bad it was.”_



IFocus said:


> Queensland like the federal government is facing revenue short falls reality is he cannot do much at all.



Interesting to note that while you criticise Newman for not doing anything, you're unable to come up with any worthwhile suggestions yourself.
It's easy to tear a house down, but much harder to build a better one in its place.


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> This young feller told me...._ blokes booking out overtime that they’ve never done, materials being pinched by staff – you’d have to have worked in that show to know just how bad it was.”_




Corrupt eastern sea board of Australia


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> Interesting to note that while you criticise Newman for not doing anything, you're unable to come up with any worthwhile suggestions yourself.
> It's easy to tear a house down, but much harder to build a better one in its place.




Newman is constrained by revenue my point is he cannot do much at all except trim around the edges claiming how good he is.

Assets sales will be the only way to raise revenue, in WA Labor have ruled that out so should Newman but he is instead softening ever one up for the inevitable.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Newman is constrained by revenue my point is he cannot do much at all except trim around the edges claiming how good he is.
> 
> Assets sales will be the only way to raise revenue, in WA Labor have ruled that out so should Newman but he is instead softening ever one up for the inevitable.




It would be difficult to hold WA labor up as paragons of virtue.IMO


----------



## sptrawler

This post in the SMH is very poignant.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...what-abbott-has-got-right-20130304-2fgsv.html

Abbott doesn't live on the Sydney waterfront, I know of a couple of ex PM's that do and I'm sure another will get there.lol


----------



## Logique

I think Hilary Clinton had the look first.


> Not a crumb from the PM's table for locals
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...table-for-locals/story-e6frezz0-1226591037735
> 
> ...The five women handpicked by Gillard to feast on "vegetable tarte tatin" and Alaskan king crab were "mummy bloggers" who had previously dined with the PM at Kirribilli house in December, and none of whom appears to live anywhere near Rooty Hill.
> 
> One guest was "Mrs Woog" of the Woogsworld blog. A former publishing executive who lives on Sydney's lower north shore, her motto is "Making the most out of the mundane". She posted a review of the dinner on her blog with photos of the PM's roasted chicken supreme, potato gratin and sun-dried tomato jus main course.
> 
> "We've met her a few times before," blogger Eden Riley, a dead ringer for the PM with her red bob and glasses, said after the dinner. "But I had my glasses before her."
> 
> They all had a lovely time, sequestered away from the great unwashed of Rooty Hill who were sitting a few metres away in the bistro or next door watching Murray's live show..


----------



## Logique

The actual increase in the tax free threshold was only a third of what Labor claimed.


> Lies, damned lies and Labor claims
> by Ross Gittins, SMH - 6 March 2013
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/lies-damned-lies-and-labor-claims-20130305-2fivr.html
> 
> Labor's repeated claim to have tripled the *tax-free threshold from $6000 to $18,200 a year* has always been literally true, but highly misleading. That's because it *conveniently ignores the complex operation of the low-income tax offset.*
> 
> When you allow for this offset, which Labor has reduced and changed without removing, *the effective tax-free threshold has increased by a much smaller $4500-odd from $16,000 to $20,542*. This explains why the tax cut arising from the seemingly huge increase in the threshold is so modest (for many, $5.80 a week) and also why the move yields no saving to anyone earning more than $80,000 a year. For them, the threshold increase has been ''clawed back''.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Corrupt eastern sea board of Australia





Of course, there could never be even the faintest sniff of dishonesty or corruption in a squeaky clean state like WA, could there?? LOL

Now let me see....Carmen Lawrence was caught up in a corruption scandal, former WA premiers Ray O’Connor and Brian Burke did time in the slammer. And of course WA’s favourite son, the irrepressible Bondy, also graced a prison cell.
And a couple of FIFO workers I know from the WA iron ore mines tell me there’s plenty of gear being knocked off every day where they work.

Even your hero Gillard is caught up in a corruption scandal.

It goes on everywhere, boyo, as you well know, not just in the eastern states.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Newman is constrained by revenue my point is he cannot do much at all except trim around the edges claiming how good he is.



And my point is that you’re just a lot of hot air with your huffing and puffing and criticism about Newman not doing anything, when in fact you now admit that you don’t think there’s anything he can do. 
He’s only been in government for a short time – during the election campaign he outlined a number of his top priorities if he won government, and the time frame in which he’d address those issues. He’s delivered on most of them.
The main thing is that he’s doing what any competent manager would do when taking the helm of a business that’s struggling under a high debt/high expenses burden – he’s trimming the fat, cutting costs, getting rid of inefficient money-wasting outfits like QBuild, making the state lean, mean and efficient. If you’ve ever run a business yourself, then you’d recognize that Newman is taking steps in the right direction.
At least give the bloke some credit where credit is due. What would you rather he do – continue along the same lines as the incompetent, money-wasting Labor government that he defeated???

Same story federally.....if Abbot wins government from Gillard you can bet he’ll wield the axe out of pure necessity, for the same reasons that Newman is doing it in Queensland.......to get on top of the mountain of debt that Labor will leave him with. 
And you and your lefty red ragger pals will jump up and down, whine and whinge and criticize, while offering no intelligent suggestions about what he should be doing. Just like you're whining and whingeing about Newman, while offering no intelligent suggestions about what Newman should be doing to help Queensland.



IFocus said:


> Assets sales will be the only way to raise revenue, in WA Labor have ruled that out so should Newman but he is instead softening ever one up for the inevitable.




Newman may or may not go down that road. He’s stated that he’s not in favour of it. Let's hope he can avoid it.  But of of course there may be no choice but for him to cash in some assets. And if it happens, people like you will jump up and down and point the finger, with no understanding that he’s only doing what’s necessary because of the impossible debt situation that Labor left him with.

As for WA Labor ruling out asset sales........
Firstly - In the unlikely event of Labor winning in WA, they'd inherit an economy that's in much better shape than the Labor-created disaster that Campbell Newman inherited in QLD. There may be no necessity for asset sales.

Secondly – How believable is the WA Labor Party? We all witnessed the blatant dishonesty of Gillard making promises before the election, then breaking those promises without blinking an eye once she got into Government. 
You’re a damn fool if you accept it as gospel truth that a political party, any political party, won’t do something because they said during the election campaign that they wouldn’t do it.


----------



## bunyip

bunyip said:


> How has Costello bashed homosexuals?
> How do you know he made over-blown claims about the state's debt?
> On what basis do you claim Costello was brought in to increase the unemployment rate?




Still waiting for your answer to these questions, IFocus.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> The actual increase in the tax free threshold was only a third of what Labor claimed.



I've tried to point this out several times and am incredulous the Coalition hasn't made more political capital out of this basic reality.  It's another of Labor's misleading claims.


----------



## chops_a_must

Julia said:


> I've tried to point this out several times and am incredulous the Coalition hasn't made more political capital out of this basic reality.  It's another of Labor's misleading claims.




Probably because they wont want to bring attention to it when it is reversed.


----------



## Julia

chops_a_must said:


> Probably because they wont want to bring attention to it when it is reversed.



If they reverse it to the previous situation where the low income offsets applied, the low income people for whom this matters will be no worse off.


----------



## Ferret

Julia said:


> If they reverse it to the previous situation where the low income offsets applied, the low income people for whom this matters will be no worse off.




I agree that Labor's claim to have greatly reduced tax for low income earners is twisting the truth, but I don't see the benefit of going back to a more complicated arrangement for no net change.

Surely it is clearer and simpler to have a higher threshold and remove the low income offset.


----------



## Julia

Ferret said:


> I agree that Labor's claim to have greatly reduced tax for low income earners is twisting the truth, but I don't see the benefit of going back to a more complicated arrangement for no net change.
> 
> Surely it is clearer and simpler to have a higher threshold and remove the low income offset.




Agree, Ferret.  And on a purely political basis, I expect the Coalition, if in government, will see the sense in letting the higher threshold stand.  To do so will make no difference to their bottom line and will prevent a free kick by the government (then the Opposition) in being able to say "they took away tax benefits from the most disadvantaged Australians".

Given the Coalition's apparent lack of capacity to explain the underlying principles properly, I doubt their chances of persuasively explaining any backflip on the matter.


----------



## noco

Bintang said:


> I've finally figured out what Julia Gillard's new year resolution is.  It  must be the same every year:
> "I will not tell any more lies"




Under Government I lead.


----------



## Bintang

noco said:


> Under Government I lead.




That's too easy for next year.
Cause next year she will not be leading a Government.
(Who the hell makes new years resolutions they can actually keep anyway?) LOL


----------



## Logique

Ferret said:


> I agree that Labor's claim to have greatly reduced tax for low income earners is twisting the truth, but I don't see the benefit of going back to a more complicated arrangement for no net change.
> 
> Surely it is clearer and simpler to have a higher threshold and remove the low income offset.



It would simplify things administratively. 

In general terms, tax breaks at the bottom end are expensive to the govt bottom line. There aren't as many people in the upper income brackets, tax breaks to them are overall relatively inexpensive. 

The increased threshold came with the carbon tax and the associated wealth redistribution agenda (their central  agenda imho) of the Gillard Govt. The Abbott Govt-in-waiting promises to dismantle the carbon tax, so I doubt that the effective tax threshold will remain as high as $20,542, especially given the impulse to get the national books back in order. 

I'd expect to hear a lot more about this from Labor during the election campaign, i.e. along the lines of..Coalition tax slugs low earners.


----------



## Julia

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/fordham_grills_gillard_on_awu_scandal/

Transcript of pretty hard hitting interview with Ms Gillard by Ben Fordham who is apparently with 2GB.
(Hard to imagine she'll agree to another interview with him in future!)


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/fordham_grills_gillard_on_awu_scandal/
> 
> Transcript of pretty hard hitting interview with Ms Gillard by Ben Fordham who is apparently with 2GB.
> (Hard to imagine she'll agree to another interview with him in future!)




I don't think the interviews are going to get easier.

What do you make of of this?

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/super-sweetener-for-shaw-20130307-2fomj.html

I know it is a bit off topic, but it highlights how the superannuation benifits are a huge influence on politicians.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> Newman as opposition leaders do made a lot of noise about how bad things are what he was gunna do to make it all better.
> 
> Basically he has done very little except bring in Costello to made over blown claims of the states debt position, bash homosexuals and increase the unemployment rate none of which will solve the states debt problems






bunyip said:


> How has Costello bashed homosexuals?
> How do you know he made over-blown claims about the state's debt?
> On what basis do you claim Costello was brought in to increase the unemployment rate?
> 
> .




IFocus – I’m a little disappointed that two or three days after I asked you these questions, you still haven’t answered them. What’s the problem – are these questions too hard for you?
I said recently that you have a talent for making wildly exaggerated claims that you can’t substantiate. 
Are we seeing another example of this in your failure to answer these questions?

Come on, my friend – you’ve made some pretty hard-hitting statements in claiming that Newman brought Costello in to bash homosexuals, make overblown claims about Queensland’s debt situation, and increase the unemployment rate. If these claims have any substance then it should be a simple matter for you to back them up with solid argument and sound reasoning to substantiate your views.
Let’s see if you’re up to it. 
Or did you just say the first silly thing that came into your head, without first thinking it through...as you’ve done so many times before on this and other threads?


----------



## Logique

Even Richo is baffled.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...gillard-out-west/story-e6frg6n6-1226592751069
"..She could find time for a dinner with the mummy bloggers who seem increasingly influential but she failed to do the obvious. Particularly for a Labor leader, the chance to dine in the bistro with ordinary punters you would have thought would be one not to miss. An $8 chicken schnitzel with the mob while sipping a cool beer would seem to be a no-brainer. Not for our Julia, though…"


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> IFocus – I’m a little disappointed that two or three days after I asked you these questions, you still haven’t answered them. What’s the problem – are these questions too hard for you?
> I said recently that you have a talent for making wildly exaggerated claims that you can’t substantiate.
> Are we seeing another example of this in your failure to answer these questions?
> 
> Come on, my friend – you’ve made some pretty hard-hitting statements in claiming that Newman brought Costello in to bash homosexuals, make overblown claims about Queensland’s debt situation, and increase the unemployment rate. If these claims have any substance then it should be a simple matter for you to back them up with solid argument and sound reasoning to substantiate your views.
> Let’s see if you’re up to it.
> Or did you just say the first silly thing that came into your head, without first thinking it through...as you’ve done so many times before on this and other threads?




The Costello comment was only meant to be about over blowing the debt issue the rest is related to the Newman government which has been through the news.

Drop the personalizations its not appreciated.


----------



## Macquack

IFocus said:


> The Costello comment was only meant to be about over blowing the debt issue *the rest is related to the Newman government *which has been through the news.




That was the way I read it.


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...mments/fordham_grills_gillard_on_awu_scandal/
> 
> Transcript of pretty hard hitting interview with Ms Gillard by Ben Fordham who is apparently with 2GB.
> (Hard to imagine she'll agree to another interview with him in future!)




I listened to the full interview linked to from the Michael Smith blog. She agreed to follow the interview guidelines set by Ben, saying that was the way she always conducted interviews. One of the guidelines was; "ditch that practice that so many politicians use when they don’t answer the specific question and they rattle on for a few minutes about other stuff". In her response to the first question, she ignored the question and proceeded to rattle on about other stuff. This was par for the whole interview. She just lies so consistently now that she probably isn't even aware of it. It is second nature to her. 

Kudos to Ben on an excellent interview. He was persistent but never lost his cool, unlike Gillard who seemed to be looking for an opportunity towards the end to find insult and terminate prematurely. Ben could certainly teach those so called seasoned veterans in the press gallery a thing or two. Most are beyond useless. 

It must be obvious to everyone by now that she was not present when Blewitt signed the power of attorney document. If I understand correctly, this is a criminal offence with up to 10 years of imprisonment if she made a false declaration as seems to be the case. The fact that this issue is still at the periphery of news worthiness is a sad indictment of the quality of Australian journalism.


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> The Costello comment was only meant to be about over blowing the debt issue the rest is related to the Newman government which has been through the news.
> 
> .




Then maybe you should say what you actually mean.

And in regard to your claim about Newman bringing in Costello to overblow Queensland’s debt situation – on what basis do you make such a claim?


----------



## IFocus

bunyip said:


> Then maybe you should say what you actually mean.
> 
> And in regard to your claim about Newman bringing in Costello to overblow Queensland’s debt situation – on what basis do you make such a claim?




One of the experts is funded by unions but his numbers are correct.

Queensland's Peter Costello 'audit' trashed by experts 



> Both analyses conclude that the Costello report focuses almost exclusively on the liabilities side of the Queensland balance sheet while understating assets, at the same time as shifting the goalposts when it comes to accounting standards to inflate the size of the problem.






> As Prof Walker notes: "In fact employee expenses have remained fairly stable over an 11-year period if expressed as a percentage of total expenses in the range of 34 to 38 per cent, peaking at 38 per cent in 2005-06 and falling to 35 per cent in 2010-11."




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ashed-by-experts/story-fndo1yus-1226466757844


----------



## IFocus

Try this as a more balanced critique to Queensland politics from the Australian no less

Peter Costello's Queensland budget audit report may hobble Campbell Newman's government



> Unfortunately, for his side of politics, Costello may have also condemned the new Liberal National Party government to a life of cutting and burning, his audit report having attacked Labor so much that only a recalcitrant Premier Campbell Newman would not implement its recommendations in full.
> 
> The report is full of damning one-liners, of how the previous Labor government was so irresponsible and reckless, but endeavours to be all black-and-white when there are various shades of grey in government spending. Political context would have been useful, too.





This is damming of most claims



> Labor, nonetheless, won that election too, and then embarked on a series of budget reforms marked by an unheralded privatisation program and the abolition of a fuel subsidy, both of which contributed to the downfall of the Bligh government this year.
> 
> Ironically, had Labor lost the 2009 election, the LNP would have taken much the same path as the Bligh government, and probably lost power this year.
> 
> The Costello report almost endorses the strategy undertaken by Labor and opposed by voters, even if the public backlash was more a result of the lack of consultation.





As I said Newman wont have the revenue



> Newman has the nickname Can-Do, but perhaps that should be Can't Afford.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...wmans-government/story-fn59niix-1226396477910


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus, don't want to get into Queensland politics, I know sod all about them.

How do you reckon the W.A election will go?
Labor and the unions have thrown $hit loads of money and the kitchen sink at it.

I think McGowan has done a great job, do you think it was enough?


----------



## sptrawler

Here is an interesting one, Wayne Swan wants an investigation into Costello's Queensland audit.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/swan-seeks-probe-on-costello-audit-20130307-2foj7.html

I wonder if anyone is going to call an inquiry into the formulation of the mineral tax, behind closed doors, with no treasury representitives present.

I personally would love to see both investigated.


----------



## noco

Gillard has made another blunder by bowing to the unions over 457 work visas.

She has many caucus and cabinet members off side.

Can she ever get anything right?



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...olt-on-457-visas/story-fn9hm1gu-1226592806806


----------



## sptrawler

I just love how everyone is paying out on Newman, for reducing the public service.
How can any government reduce spending without reducing public service?
How can the 'normal Australian familly' reduce spending without less excess?
We can all keep spending more than we earn, then we can be like the 'basket cases of europe'.
Some time, someone has to pay the piper.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> IFocus, don't want to get into Queensland politics, I know sod all about them.
> 
> How do you reckon the W.A election will go?
> Labor and the unions have thrown $hit loads of money and the kitchen sink at it.
> 
> I think McGowan has done a great job, do you think it was enough?




Barnett should stroll in which I don't mind I think over all he has done well and is respected by most but he is carrying the government on his shoulders so I hope his health holds up for the term.

McGowan has run a good campaign if he loses only a couple of seats that would be a good result IMHO.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Barnett should stroll in which I don't mind I think over all he has done well and is respected by most but he is carrying the government on his shoulders so I hope his health holds up for the term.
> 
> McGowan has run a good campaign if he loses only a couple of seats that would be a good result IMHO.




I agree with you,.

I really think the gas hub at James Price point is pivotal to the development of WA.

If Barney can't pull it off, we are going to end up being a wasteland.IMO


----------



## bunyip

IFocus said:


> One of the experts is funded by unions but his numbers are correct.
> 
> Queensland's Peter Costello 'audit' trashed by experts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ashed-by-experts/story-fndo1yus-1226466757844




Thanks for explaining how you arrived at your view. It took you long enough to do it, but better late than never I guess. 

You made a pretty strong statement is saying that Newman brought in Costello to overblow Queensland’s debt situation. Strong statements on public forums should be backed by something to support them, otherwise people are naturally going to challenge you to back up what you said.


----------



## bunyip

sptrawler said:


> I just love how everyone is paying out on Newman, for reducing the public service.
> How can any government reduce spending without reducing public service?
> How can the 'normal Australian familly' reduce spending without less excess?
> We can all keep spending more than we earn, then we can be like the 'basket cases of europe'.
> Some time, someone has to pay the piper.





And the same thing will happen if the Gillard government is turfed out by Abbot .......by necessity he'll tighten the belt. And the unions will launch a bitter campaign against him, and might even succeed in bringing him down after just one term.
Then we'd be back to Labor and more economic irresponsibility and incompetence, just like we've copped from the disastrous Rudd/Gillard experiment.

It’s the Gillard government that the unions should be launching a campaign against for introducing the carbon and mining taxes that can only hurt business and therefore jobs. But the unions won't open their eyes far enough to see that.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you,.
> 
> I really think the gas hub at James Price point is pivotal to the development of WA.
> 
> If Barney can't pull it off, we are going to end up being a wasteland.IMO




Not so sure about the waste land bit and I am unsure about James Price Point given its proximity to some really important marine conservation areas.


Both sides would have a similar view on the project (I think but don't actually know for sure) but agree Barnett is more likely to get it over the line.


----------



## Calliope

Ms Gillard's  live-in lovers, past and present, have had serious behavioral problems.



> AN email obtained exclusively by The Weekend Australian reveals Julia Gillard's partner, Tim Mathieson, sought to involve her office in pressuring a major sporting club to freeze out Tony Abbott.
> 
> After attending an AFL clash at the MCG as a guest of the Richmond Football Club, Mr Mathieson emailed its chief executive, Brendon Gale, copying in the Prime Minister's office, to complain about the Opposition Leader's access to the team's inner sanctum and his prominent seating at a pre-game function.
> 
> Mr Mathieson demanded that Mr Gale raise the matter with the Prime Minister's chief of staff, Ben Hubbard



.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...snub-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226593598167


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> Ms Gillard's  live-in lovers, past and present, have had serious behavioral problems.
> 
> .
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...snub-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226593598167




If you lie down with dogs, you will get up with fleas.


----------



## bunyip

I guess the WA election result wasn’t exactly what Gillard and her motley crew were hoping for! LOL

I heard briefly on TV that the Libs defeated Labor in a landslide victory.
Great stuff.....I’m looking forward to the Gillard government being the next bunch of socialist rats to get roasted!


----------



## sails

bunyip said:


> I guess the WA election result wasn’t exactly what Gillard and her motley crew were hoping for! LOL...




But she says she has more to do than worry about the polls - like legislating stuff the majority don't want.  

And she legislated her carbon tax this despite a poll three weeks before it's legislation showing clear 57% of voters did NOT want it.  If that's not dictatorial and undemocratic,  I don't know what is...

And too busy letting boat people in with no papers rather than keep her pre-election promise of stopping the boats. And spending money like a drunken sailor than keep her promise of a surplus.  Yeah, no wonder she has no time to bother about poll results - unless, it seems, they are in her favour...

Morgan poll 28th October, 2011:  



> L-NP (55.5%) LEAD INCREASES OVER ALP (44.5%)
> CLEAR MAJORITY (57%) OF AUSTRALIANS OPPOSE CARBON TAX




http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2011/4710/


----------



## bigdog

Great articles and Julia cartoons on pickeringpost!

http://pickeringpost.com/article/just-who-is-this-bloke/997

*JUST WHO IS THIS BLOKE?*





He can handle a mop and a mullet, thought he was Elvis, was a big noting bikie, owed lots of money in Shepparton and on the Gold Coast, cops found him full of grog when he crashed his car and he dudded his own family out of $80,000. 

But friends are adamant he is no pillow biter.

It was 2001 when he first met Julia. She had just been elected to the shadow ministry and had wandered into a Fitzroy salon where Tim was working, just around the corner from 85 Kerr Street.

Of course Julia suffered Tim's usual, well practised pick-up lines. He needn't have bothered because Julia wasn't a particularly good nor a hard catch. 

Nor was Tim who already had plenty of form... and plenty of single women. 

After a bit of sweaty wrestling in the cot, Tim dumped his regular Shepparton law firm partner, the pretty Jayne Law, for the far less aesthetic Julia.

But unbeknown to divorced father-of-three Tim, it was Julia calling the shots. It was she who dumped Tim for greener pastures where married men browse. 

Influential Labor MP colleague Craig Emerson was her next target.

Julia found him attractive but strangely Julia's contact lenses had gone missing at the time. 

Anyway, after one agile night with Craig, Tim was a mere memory and Craig's wife and kids mattered no more than Bruce Wilson's had. 

The enchanted Craig promptly left his wife and three children for the myopic Julia.

After Julia had bought another set of contact lenses Craig too was dumped.

In 2007 Labor won office and Julia's communist background had rapidly ushered her to the Deputy PM position. 

Soon, in a Labor Government bereft of talent, Julia found herself fingered by her old foe the AWU as the one to take out Rudd and set up a union supported radical Left agenda.

Now her coterie of married men partners was a definite no-no and she quickly made a call to the good old jilted, but single and broke, Tim. 

The offer of digs at The Lodge sounded great and $250,000 p.a. pocket money seemed a lot of haircuts to Tim. 

"You're on", said Tim, "but I don't want to be just a handbag, Jules."

Julia explained that he would be permitted to fly with her in her private plane and meet important people at the Richmond Football Club and that she had a little bell beside her bed and he could be expected to be summoned when needed. 

"Ripper", said Tim, "...do I get a little bell too?"

"Nope", said Julia.

But Tim had a more important problem that needed fixing if his wildest dreams of becoming Australia's first bloke were to eventuate. 

You see, Tim's poor father had put $30,000 into his son's Shepparton hair salon business and his brother had borrowed $50,000 to invest in the venture. 

But Tim had become bored with cutting hair and when staff arrived one Monday morning they found he had cleaned out the till and shot through. 

There was also the little matter of $20,000 owed on the Gold Coast.

There were enough skeletons in Julia's cupboard without Tim's indebtedness rearing its head at an inopportune moment.

We have no idea who coughed up the green stuff but a union official got behind the wheel of his car and settled all of Tim's debts in cash.

What else do we need to know about Tim except that he barracks for Richmond? 

"Oh yeah, one more thing Jules, can I decide who gets to go into the Tigers' dressing rooms after the game?" 

"Of course you can Tim", sighed Julia. "You can even decide the nationality of whoever wants to stick a finger up your bum." 

The Australian has reported today that Tim demanded Tony Abbott not be invited into the Tigers' dressing rooms ever again and demanded Richmond CEO Gale raise the matter with Julia's chief of staff, Ben Hubbard.

There ya go... being first bloke certainly gives you clout even if you're not allowed to have your own little bell.

Mmmm, goodness me, what a wanker!


----------



## bellenuit

_Of course Julia suffered Tim's usual, well practised pick-up lines_

The first article I ever read from the Pickering Post was posted somewhere in Aussie Stock Forums. There were many serious allegations in the article about Gillard that may or may not have been true, but I gave no credence to anything written in the article because it was littered with statements like the above that we know the author simply had no way of knowing. I think the first article had statements about the mood Gillard was in when she woke up one morning, something again the author could not have known. 

If Pickering wants to be taken seriously then he should stick to facts. If facts are intermixed with fiction, then for safety reasons everything should be assumed to be fiction.


----------



## Miss Hale

bellenuit said:


> _Of course Julia suffered Tim's usual, well practised pick-up lines_
> 
> The first article I ever read from the Pickering Post was posted somewhere in Aussie Stock Forums. There were many serious allegations in the article about Gillard that may or may not have been true, but I gave no credence to anything written in the article because it was littered with statements like the above that we know the author simply had no way of knowing. I think the first article had statements about the mood Gillard was in when she woke up one morning, something again the author could not have known.
> 
> If Pickering wants to be taken seriously then he should stick to facts. If facts are intermixed with fiction, then for safety reasons everything should be assumed to be fiction.




I agree.  Although I share Pickering's dislike for Gillard he goes too far with personal insult and I find his little stories with obviously made up details rather childish. I used to like and respect him as a cartoonist but that respect is quickly evaporating.


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> _Of course Julia suffered Tim's usual, well practised pick-up lines_
> 
> The first article I ever read from the Pickering Post was posted somewhere in Aussie Stock Forums. There were many serious allegations in the article about Gillard that may or may not have been true, but I gave no credence to anything written in the article because it was littered with statements like the above that we know the author simply had no way of knowing. I think the first article had statements about the mood Gillard was in when she woke up one morning, something again the author could not have known.
> 
> If Pickering wants to be taken seriously then he should stick to facts. If facts are intermixed with fiction, then for safety reasons everything should be assumed to be fiction.



Agree also.  Even if half what is said so maliciously is true, it's not the business of anyone other than the two people concerned.  Pickering must be a real grub.


----------



## MrBurns

I never looked at his web site but today I did, I thought this was clever.......



> McTERNAN'S CLEVER GOGGLES PLOY
> 
> A bit of botox in that forehead, a little cutaneous renewal, a makeup make-over, a new wardrobe of Chanel creations and the old Julia of the Socialist hard Left is almost unrecognisable.
> 
> Gone is the hard mouth and cold steely eyes of the Shadow Minister for Education.
> 
> Gone is the butch haircut of the deputy Opposition Leader.
> 
> Gone is the striped male suit and crumpled shirt of the calculating man-slaying hero of radical feminists.
> 
> Now we have the new Julia, the kid friendly Julia who can actually hold a baby and pat a dog.
> 
> The reincarnation of Julia is remarkable. The new Julia is the electorally palatable middle ground female ready for an eight month election campaign.
> 
> The transformation is almost complete. But there is one problem.
> 
> The file clips and pics of our lovely Julia are horrific. She has given us far too many unattractive images of the dark, fringe-dwelling political Julia.
> 
> Every time a story is written on her, eager journos search the files for pics to fit the mood, and there are thousands of images that completely negate Julia's new electorally acceptable facade.
> 
> So let's pull one of McTernan's tricks out of his bag of devious goodies. A trick he has used before.
> 
> Whack a pair of professional looking specs on her. They are unneeded but complete the picture of the new "sophisticated" Julia.
> 
> But more importantly, if the Press now wants to appear to portray pictorial integrity, those old dastardly images of Julia can no longer be used, they are obsolete, dated.
> 
> McTernan may be a grub, but he's a clever grub.




http://pickeringpost.com/article/mcternans-clever-goggles-ploy/970


----------



## sptrawler

That post is perfect MrBurns.
However McTernan has stuffed it, the non vocal  'average Australian', is over Gillard and Labor.
W.A has shown the greens and labor will be hammered, it will be a landslide, it will be historical.
The only good thing Gillard has done is call a long election date. 
It will give everyone something to look forward to, over the winter months.


----------



## noco

Me thinks poor Julia will be short lived next week but who ever takes over will be just as bad.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...er-julia-gillard/story-fndo1uez-1226593924698


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Me thinks poor Julia will be short lived next week but who ever takes over will be just as bad.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...er-julia-gillard/story-fndo1uez-1226593924698




My guess is, they know they are dead men walking, so Gillard will stay.
The independents and greens are gone, big time.
So everyone watches Julia, running round like a chook with its head chopped off.

I wonder how Wilkie, Oakeshott and Windsor are handling their centrelink applications? Only joking they'le pull a pension also.lol


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> Me thinks poor Julia will be short lived next week but who ever takes over will be just as bad.
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...er-julia-gillard/story-fndo1uez-1226593924698



It's an agony for Labor. The PM is a zealot, she'll only go, if at all, kicking and screaming, her fingernails clawing at the furniture. Rudd will only return on his own terms, which would necessitate a humiliating surrender from half of his parliamentary colleagues.  

And let's not forget, at that link "..Support for the status quo was strongest among Labor voters..".


----------



## MrBurns

She'll be lucky to last the week, the only downside is that she wont have to face the electorate, she deserves to face the electorate and the public deserve the opportunity to treat her as they have been treated.....with utter contempt.


----------



## MrBurns

It wont be long now..........


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> ................. she deserves to face the electorate and the public deserve the opportunity to treat her as they have been treated.....with utter contempt.




I agree wholeheartedly. I hopes she's stays until the bitter end.


----------



## Miss Hale

Bintang said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. I hopes she's stays until the bitter end.




If only the bitter end wasn't so far away....


----------



## Bintang

Miss Hale said:


> If only the bitter end wasn't so far away....




Yes.... the sooner the 'bitter'


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> If only the bitter end wasn't so far away....




Yeah. It will be a great day when she and bludger Tim depart the Lodge. 




> IT'S one thing to have a bogan in The Lodge. In a country that hates snobs, few dare complain.
> 
> But a bogan who expects free tickets just because his girlfriend is Prime Minister?
> 
> That's Tim Mathieson's big mistake.
> 
> It's hardly his fault Julia Gillard prefers a partner out of his depth in public affairs. ("You again!" he cried on meeting the Queen a second time.)
> 
> What is his fault is that he cadges free tickets to sports events as the Prime Minister's partner, often taking his mates but leaving Gillard at the office.
> 
> He's had freebies at the Formula One Grand Prix, Derby Day, Oaks Day; Australian Open, State of Origin, the AFL and NRL finals and international cricket games.
> 
> And he doesn't mind taking the Prime Minister's taxpayer-supplied car to get there.
> 
> In January, NSW police wondered why Gillard's car was left in a no-parking area at the SCG during the Australia versus Sri Lanka Test.
> 
> The culprit was Mathieson, living it up in the Cricket NSW box with his son.




Read more;
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion...pull-his-head-in/story-e6frfhqf-1226594300408


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Yeah. It will be a great day when she and bludger Tim depart the Lodge.
> Read more;
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion...pull-his-head-in/story-e6frfhqf-1226594300408




It must be like the Beverley Hillbillies at the Lodge, talk about low class.


----------



## sptrawler

Well at last Conroy has worked out what Aussies think of Labor.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...rd-to-stand-down/story-fndo3ewo-1226595032882

It shows how badly they are functioning when Julia is the best they have. Australia is sick of them, they just don't get it.

It is past being funny, the electorate is fed up and have to wait 6 months to vent. It won't be pretty.lol


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> It is past being funny, the electorate is fed up and have to wait 6 months to vent. It won't be pretty.lol



I think that's right.  The long election campaign was a huge mistake imo.  People have largely made up their minds and will  become increasingly resentful as the unfunded pork barrelling continues to be rolled out.

There was a good initiative today in the form of a definite standard of literacy and numeracy being set for potential teachers.  About time.  I'd have thought that was pretty damn basic and should have been automaticaly incorporated in the selection criteria from the beginning.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I think that's right.  The long election campaign was a huge mistake imo.  People have largely made up their minds and will  become increasingly resentful as the unfunded pork barrelling continues to be rolled out.
> 
> There was a good initiative today in the form of a definite standard of literacy and numeracy being set for potential teachers.  About time.  I'd have thought that was pretty damn basic and should have been automaticaly incorporated in the selection criteria from the beginning.




Well Julia, I'm no academic, left school at 15. 
However, even I have noticed that the schooling system has moved from teaching, to teaching as a job.
The job has great holidays, has good pay, doesn't require a great academic ability and outcomes are now not assessed.
What's the down side, smart kids that know more than the teachers, would be a down side.lol
I believe they are saying you shouldn't teach your kids anything, because they get bored at school.
They don't do the times tables anymore, probably because the teachers don't know them.lol
Anyway we are probably getting a bit off thread.


----------



## MrBurns

Well she's crawled back a bit in the polls, I don't believe a word of it but it will keep her there perhaps which is a good thing........let her face the music not scurry away with her bludging hardresser and leave it to others.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> Well she's crawled back a bit in the polls, I don't believe a word of it but it will keep her there perhaps which is a good thing........let her face the music not scurry away with her bludging hardresser and leave it to others.




It was a Newspoll poll though whose results do tend to favour Labor a bit more than some of the others.


----------



## bigdog

*Whoever  wrote this was really pissed off ... But it's a  point well made.
-- received from  a friend*


On the  18th of August 1966 at Long Tan ,  Vietnam ,  D Company of the 6th Battalion,  Royal Australian Regiment, mainly  made up of Australian National  Servicemen and at that time  located to support the American  Army.

They fought a battle against the  North Vietnamese regulars & Viet  Cong  comprising: Viet Cong 275th Regiment and elements of  the D445 Local Forces  Battalion in this  action D Company lost 18 men killed and 24  injured.

The  Viet Cong dead numbered in excess of  245.  The Australian lines were never crossed.  The Viet Cong  withdrew. 

American  President Johnson and US Army Staff recognised the achievement by awarding the  Unit Citation of Gallantry on 30th May  1968.  The Award was formally  accepted by Queen Elizabeth in 13th June  1968.

Prime Minister John Gorton made the formal presentation of  this American Citation to the  Battalion at Lavarack Barracks,  Townsville on 18th August  1968. 

*On  the 31st of March 2010, D Company  of the 6th Battalion, Royal Australian  Regiment were belatedly awarded  the Australian version of "Unit  Citation for Gallantry"  (UCG) honouring their  extraordinary deeds at Long  Tan. *

*The  Government however refused to approve travel  payment for the surviving Unit Members or  their families, including  the families of deceased unit members, in order that they be  present at the UCG Presentation  Ceremony presided over by the  Governor General of  Australia .* 

*In  February 2011 the same Government of  Australia footed the Funeral Bill  to bury the illegal boat  people, who tragically perished on  Christmas Island.  This included  flying surviving family illegals and  survivors to and from Sydney and  Xmas Island , accommodating them,  etc etc, plus a Coach tour of  Sydney thrown in. *

*The  Canberra Politburo had waited 45  years to  publicly acknowledge the bravery and  sacrifice of these sons of  Australia and then immediately  **** on their memory by wetting  themselves to appease the feelings of boat  illegals forcing entry into our  country. *

*Now  we witness what can only be described as  attempted political face  saving, by this same Government,  sponsoring a TV Documentary, to  celebrate our Armed Forces accomplishments at  Kapyong , Korea in 1951.

This will  see our Prime Minister and the entire  Priministerial Entourage fly in a  RAAF plane to Korea to mark this 60th  Anniversary.*

What Bloody  Hypocrisy!!!

What a Blatant  Affront to the feelings of our  Nation's serving Armed  Forces, past and  present.

Shame, Shame,  Shame,

*You Political  Parasites.

You do not deserve to  represent our country*


----------



## Logique

Miss Hale said:


> It was a Newspoll poll though whose results do tend to favour Labor a bit more than some of the others.



Exactly what I was thinking. How many times has it been Newspoll to the rescue. Always good for a clutch poll.


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> ... with her bludging hardresser ...




What does your wife or partner do, and what would you expect her/he to do if you were the Prime Minister?

Newspoll always seems closer to the mark at election time too.


----------



## explod

Julia said:


> I think that's right.  The long election campaign was a huge mistake imo.  People have largely made up their minds and will  become increasingly resentful as the unfunded pork barrelling continues to be rolled out.
> 
> There was a good initiative today in the form of a definite standard of literacy and numeracy being set for potential teachers.  About time.  I'd have thought that was pretty damn basic and should have been automaticaly incorporated in the selection criteria from the beginning.




If it had not been called Abbott and the press cheer squad would have been at her every minute to declare when.  Ya just cant win.


----------



## Miss Hale

explod said:


> If it had not been called Abbott and the press cheer squad would have been at her every minute to declare when.  Ya just cant win.




You're missing the obvious choice, she could have called it NOW!  Might not have won votes but would not have lost more by  p*** off the electorate by calling it with the longest election campaign in history!


----------



## explod

Miss Hale said:


> You're missing the obvious choice, she could have called it NOW!  Might not have won votes but would not have lost more by  p*** off the electorate by calling it with the longest election campaign in history!




If you were Prime Minister, or Abbott do you not think you would hang in there full term, first to govern, albeit with independents, and to give time to improve ones footing.  Not sure she could have won votes in any circumstance over the last few months.  Down the track a bit we will see.  Noted Garrett very good on tellie last night.  Also in the last few days Bowen and Wong speaking up well.  It seems the shackles are off a bit and it is exposing the talent that Guillard does have if they are allowed to run.  Could be interesting in a few more months down the track.

And not picking you Miss Hale but there is a lot of wishful thinking of others here clouding clear thinking in my humble view.


----------



## bunyip

explod said:


> If it had not been called Abbott and the press cheer squad would have been at her every minute to declare when.  Ya just cant win.




A government usually chooses an election date that they believe will most enhance their chances of being re-elected.
Can you think of any reason why they chose September? I can’t.


----------



## bunyip

bunyip said:


> A government usually chooses an election date that they believe will most enhance their chances of being re-elected.
> Can you think of any reason why they chose September? I can’t.




Explod....Ignore the above - when I wrote it I didn't realise that you've already answered this question in your last post.


----------



## bunyip

explod said:


> If you were Prime Minister, or Abbott do you not think you would hang in there full term, first to govern, albeit with independents, and to give time to improve ones footing.  Not sure she could have won votes in any circumstance over the last few months.  Down the track a bit we will see.  Noted Garrett very good on tellie last night.  Also in the last few days Bowen and Wong speaking up well.  It seems the shackles are off a bit and it is exposing the talent that Guillard does have if they are allowed to run.  Could be interesting in a few more months down the track.
> 
> And not picking you Miss Hale but there is a lot of wishful thinking of others here clouding clear thinking in my humble view.




If she wants to run full term, OK. But she could have left the full term option open if she’d made no decision on the election date just yet. Then if she got a surge in the polls sometimes down the track, she could have announced a snap election to take advantage of that.
I just don’t see any advantage to her at all of announcing a date so far out – it seems to make no sense at all. But then it’s pretty damn hard to find any sense in anything else that Gillard does, either. 

Judging from some of the comments from her own party, they too seem to be rather perplexed too as to why she chose September. One of them, I can’t think who it was, suggested that she’d given away the tactical advantage that incumbent governments have in being able to choose the election date that most advantages the government.


----------



## Miss Hale

explod said:


> If you were Prime Minister, or Abbott do you not think you would hang in there full term, first to govern, albeit with independents, and to give time to improve ones footing.




Yes, most probably, but I wouldn't name an election date eight months ahead of time. It looks light you are trying to be smart and score points in a 'gotcha' kind of way, "You want me to call the election?  OK I will, I'm calling it now...for September...ha, ha, gothcha!" 




explod said:


> Not sure she could have won votes in any circumstance over the last few months.




I tend to agree, my point is this was the worst of the three options as I believe by annoying the electorate it may be the last straw for some voters who were prepared to give Labor another chance, thereby actually losing votes. 




explod said:


> And not picking you Miss Hale but there is a lot of wishful thinking of others here clouding clear thinking in my humble view.




I agree, but I see it from people of all sides of politics.  And there is definitely wishful thinking on my part, I'll admit that, and it probably does coloutr my view to some extent.


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> Ya just cant win.




Of course "ya" can't win. "Ya" are on the losing side.

The Newspoll is good news for the Coalition. It means Labor won't be dumping loser Gillard for two-time loser Rudd anytime soon.

Julia's mad spending spree is Abbott's best weapon.

Hey Logique, there is method in their madness;



> Exactly what I was thinking. How many times has it been Newspoll to the rescue. Always good for a clutch poll.


----------



## bunyip

Miss Hale said:


> I agree, but I see it from people of all sides of politics.  And there is definitely wishful thinking on my part, I'll admit that, and it probably does coloutr my view to some extent.



Wishful thinking on my part too....my wish is that voters will continue to treat this government with the same disdain that Rudd/Gillard & Co have shown towards Aussie voters.

I’m really enjoying watching this Labor government being shredded – can’t wait for the final death throes in September of what is probably the most dishonest and inept government in the history of our country.


----------



## dutchie

bigdog said:


> *Whoever  wrote this was really pissed off ... But it's a  point well made.
> -- received from  a friend*
> 
> ................
> 
> What Bloody  Hypocrisy!!!
> 
> What a Blatant  Affront to the feelings of our  Nation's serving Armed  Forces, past and  present.
> 
> Shame, Shame,  Shame,
> 
> *You Political  Parasites.
> 
> You do not deserve to  represent our country*




This is a disgrace. Especially how this country honours our diggers.

Unfortunately it only emphasises that this government is only concerned about two things - themselves (staying in power) and the unions.


----------



## dutchie

Gillard called "liar" twice during QT by spectators.

A poor state of affairs for this to happen in Parliament.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> Gillard called "liar" twice during QT by spectators.
> 
> A poor state of affairs for this to happen in Parliament.




The public have had enough.


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> The public have had enough.




An absolute disgrace.  

We are blessed with freedom of speech and we can demonstrate in the streets if we like and we can vote.  But heckling and yelling within our Parliament is akin to allowing mob rule.

It is well established under the Westminster System that the Parliament is for the exclusive government business of the day on behalf of the people represented.  There are many sides and views represented so no person can complain, but for order the business must be done without the interference of hecklers or those without authority under our system to do so.

It is not hard to see Mr Burns, that if given half a chance, you would follow a charge on the doors of the Bastille.  
I am neither ALP nor LIB but the extremism coming through from some political followers on the forums is disturbing to those of us who wish peace.


----------



## MrBurns

explod said:


> An absolute disgrace.
> 
> We are blessed with freedom of speech and we can demonstrate in the streets if we like and we can vote.  But heckling and yelling within our Parliament is akin to allowing mob rule.
> 
> It is well established under the Westminster System that the Parliament is for the exclusive government business of the day on behalf of the people represented.  There are many sides and views represented so no person can complain, but for order the business must be done without the interference of hecklers or those without authority under our system to do so.
> 
> It is not hard to see Mr Burns, that if given half a chance, you would follow a charge on the doors of the Bastille.
> I am neither ALP nor LIB but the extremism coming through from some political followers on the forums is disturbing to those of us who wish peace.




I've never seen this happen before, Gillard is the only leader I've ever seen generate this kind of hatred.


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> An absolute disgrace.
> 
> We are blessed with freedom of speech and we can demonstrate in the streets if we like and we can vote.  But heckling and yelling within our Parliament is akin to allowing mob rule.




Don't be a hypocrite. I suppose it was OK when your leader Bob Brown heckled the visiting American President George Bush during a speech he was making in Parliament in October 2003.


----------



## DB008

explod said:


> It is well established under the Westminster System that the Parliament is for the exclusive government business of the day on behalf of the people represented.




And herein lies the problem. Once they get into power, they decide to do their own thing, which we did not vote for!


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> I've never seen this happen before, Gillard is the *only leader I've ever seen generate this kind of hatred*.




Burns you are a joke, you said the exact same thing about Kevin Rudd.


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> Don't be a hypocrite. I suppose it was OK when your leader Bob Brown heckled the visiting American President George Bush during a speech he was making in Parliament in October 2003.




Bob Brown was an elected member of the Parliament.  Hecklers are not.  Need to check the legalities ole pal before you mouth of with those words.

And in what Bush was up to and had us involved in Bob Brown proved to be one of the great men of all time with the balls to stand up and be counted on and issue of disgrace by the US.  They are still looking for the weapons of mass destruction hey; and the Country more ruined that it would have been under Saddam Hussein himself.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Burns you are a joke, you said the exact same thing about Kevin Rudd.




Did I ? 

I cant recall, wouldn't suprise me though, the Labor party have a wealth of lying incompetent weasels all worthy of that tag.


----------



## MrBurns

explod said:


> Bob Brown was an elected member of the Parliament.  Hecklers are not.  Need to check the legalities ole pal before you mouth of with those words.
> 
> And in what Bush was up to and had us involved in Bob Brown proved to be one of the great men of all time with the balls to stand up and be counted on and issue of disgrace by the US.  They are still looking for the weapons of mass destruction hey; and the Country more ruined that it would have been under Saddam Hussein himself.




Well Bob Brown should have known better but what the hell would he care about what our alies think of us.

He led a disgraceful and useless party until he bailed out and left whats left of it for Milne play with.


----------



## explod

DB008 said:


> And herein lies the problem. Once they get into power, they decide to do their own thing, which we did not vote for!




Yeh, and whilst on the topic; there were a lot of Liberals among the demonstrators against the Irak war which Johnny Howard followed Bush into.  Obviously we did not vote for that either.

Parliamentarians do have the right to change their minds as circumstances change like anyone else would.   No one has the right to interfere in anyone else s job.


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> Well Bob Brown should have known better but what the hell would he care about what our alies think of us.
> 
> He led a disgraceful and useless party until he bailed out and left whats left of it for Milne play with.




Do you read the content of my posts or just blah blah on anyway.

Bob Brown had every right to speak up on the floor of the Parliament as an elected representative.  The public on the other hand have no right to speak as they do not fit the legalities, *they are not elected members of the Parliament. *


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> Bob Brown was an elected member of the Parliament.  Hecklers are not.  Need to check the legalities ole pal before you mouth of with those words..




Never mind about legalities "ole pal". To heckle an invited guest during a speech is sheer bad manners, or in your words "an absolute disgrace".



> Two Australian senators were ordered ejected from parliament for *heckling* U.S. President George W. Bush's address to lawmakers, but the American leader shrugged off the interruption and won applause by saying "I love free speech."
> 
> Anti-war politicians from the minority Australian Greens Party, Sen. Bob Brown and Sen. Kerry Nettle, jeered Bush during his speech, forcing him to stop his address



.
http://articles.cnn.com/2003-10-23/...n-president-bush-love-free-speech?_s=PM:WORLD



> Bob Brown proved to be one of the great men of all time.




You've got it bad "ole pal".


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> You've got it bad "ole pal".




Well his getting up your nose indicates a job well done on that count too.

And who cares about embarrassing a murderess tyrant like Bush, in fact if we had proper world council justice Bush should go to the chair for his crimes.


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> Well his getting up your nose indicates a job well done on that count too.




George Brandis got it right. You picked the right party for people with your views.



> But Brandis said, among other things: "I intend to continue to call to the attention of the Australian people the extremely alarming, frightening similarities between the methods employed by contemporary Green politics and the methods and values of the Nazis . . . in the name of free speech, Senator Brown and Senator Nettle (no longer a senator) sought to deny the freedom of speech of the invited guest. The commonalities between contemporary Green politics and old-fashioned fascism and Nazism are chilling. *First of all is the (Greens) embrace of fanaticism, the embrace of a set of political values which will not brook the expression of legitimate difference. They are unable to listen to somebody whose political colour they dislike, whose political views they disagree with, without screaming at them. They will not even brook the legitimacy of alternative points of view.* The zealotry, the fundamentalism, we saw from Senator Brown and Senator Nettle identified them as true fanatics . . . *the Greens are a sinister force, inspired by sinister ideas.*"


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Never mind about legalities "ole pal". To heckle an invited guest during a speech is sheer bad manners, or in your words "an absolute disgrace".
> 
> .
> http://articles.cnn.com/2003-10-23/...n-president-bush-love-free-speech?_s=PM:WORLD
> 
> 
> 
> You've got it bad "ole pal".




+1...


----------



## sails

How's this for trashing parliament - and Combet was in on it.  I hope the righteous indignation over a couple of voters expressing their opinion without violence extends to this horrific and violent attack on parliament:




More here on the violence:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Parliament_House_Riot

An excerpt:


> The Australian Council of Trade Unions called the "cavalcade to Canberra" rally to protest against the industrial relations reform agenda of the Liberal-National Coalition Howard Government. The protest began with senior Australian Trade Union officials including ACTU President Jennie George and Assistant Secretary Greg Combet, as well as senior members of the Australian Labor Party rallying demonstrators from a podium


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> George Brandis got it right. You picked the right party for people with your views.




Attended the local Greens meeting tonight as a matter of fact and a good turn up of good ordinary Australian's concerned about a fair go for all.

A new member signing on has created a web sight for single mum's.  Huge numbers of them left in poverty by their men and the current Government cutting back on them too, and I know Abbot will certainly do the same.

I know where my bread and my conscience is buttered.

So its not just views it is action for the disenfranchised.


----------



## explod

sails said:


> How's this for trashing parliament - and Combet was in on it.  I hope the righteous indignation over a couple of voters expressing their opinion without violence extends to this horrific and violent attack on parliament:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More here on the violence:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Parliament_House_Riot
> 
> An excerpt:





What more would you expect of that rabble, thanks for posting this.

Very different to Bob Brown doing his job in a dignified manner as he was elected to do.


----------



## Julia

The Morgan poll just out suggests that today's Newspoll might be somewhat of an aberration.



> L-NP 57.5% (up 3%) Increase Lead Over ALP (42.5%, down 3%)
> Despite PM Julia Gillard’s Trip to West Sydney as the L-NP easily win the WA Election
> 
> Federal Poll : Finding No. 4872 : Finding No. 4872 - This multi-mode Morgan Poll on Federal voting intention was conducted over the last few days, March 7-10, 2013 with an Australia-wide cross-section of 4,627 Australian electors aged 18+, of all electors surveyed 3% (up 0.5%) did not name a party. Polling was conducted via face-to-face interviewing and also via online surveying. : March 12, 2013
> 
> In mid-March the Morgan Poll shows support for the L-NP is 57.5% (up 3% since February 28-March 3, 2013) cf. ALP 42.5% (down 3%) on a two-party preferred basis.
> 
> The L-NP primary vote is 47% (up 2%) clearly ahead of the ALP 31.5% (down 1.5%). Among the minor parties Greens support is 11% (up 0.5%) and Independents/ Others are 10.5% (down 1%).
> 
> If a Federal election were held today the L-NP would easily win the election according to today’s multi-mode Morgan Poll on Federal voting intention conducted over the last few days, March 7-10, 2013.


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> What more would you expect of that rabble, thanks for posting this.
> 
> Very different to Bob Brown doing his job in a dignified manner as he was elected to do.




Brown and Combet were among the ringleaders of the "rabble".


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> The Morgan poll just out suggests that today's Newspoll might be somewhat of an aberration.




I don't see the ABC in any hurry to put that on their web site.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> The Morgan poll just out suggests that today's Newspoll might be somewhat of an aberration.





> ..In mid-March the Morgan Poll shows support for the *L-NP is 57.5%* (up 3% since February 28-March 3, 2013) cf. *ALP 42.5%* (down 3%) on a two-party preferred basis..



Those percentages are nearly identical to the WA election result, and sharply contradict Newspoll's latest poll.  Newspoll's 'aberrations' seem exquisitely timed.  Newspoll seems highly valued by the ALP.


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Those percentages are nearly identical to the WA election result, and sharply contradict Newspoll's latest poll.  Newspoll's 'aberrations' seem exquisitely timed.  Newspoll seems highly valued by the ALP.





lol- it seems the ALP will "value" any poll that gives the illusion they are doing better than the electorate perceive...

Whether that favoured poll is out of whack with the others doesn't matter, but then isn't that also pretty much in line with this government which seemingly won't face reality and blames most, if not all, their mistakes on to someone else?


----------



## MrBurns

I still dont see this reported anywhere.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Those percentages are nearly identical to the WA election result, and sharply contradict Newspoll's latest poll.  Newspoll's 'aberrations' seem exquisitely timed.  Newspoll seems highly valued by the ALP.



Which is odd, given Newspoll is run exclusively for "The Australian", if we're going to be considering conspiracy theories.


----------



## explod

Calliope said:


> Brown and Combet were among the ringleaders of the "rabble".




Actually noted some media suggesting that the rabble interrupting Parliament yesterday may have been Abbot/party stooges.

Interesting


----------



## Calliope

explod said:


> Actually noted some media suggesting that the rabble interrupting Parliament yesterday may have been Abbot/party stooges.
> 
> Interesting




It is interesting that you believe Abbott-hating Tania Plibersek's lies.

http://video.au.msn.com/?mkt=en-au&...=v5:share:sharepermalink:&from=sharepermalink


----------



## MrBurns

explod said:


> Actually noted some media suggesting that the rabble interrupting Parliament yesterday may have been Abbot/party stooges.
> 
> Interesting




Some media ? Interesting ?
What a load of BS


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> Some media ? Interesting ?
> What a load of BS




Whilst I was having breakfast and on SBS24.

In fact the way the Libs work (stuff policy, just criticize and blah blah blah) *it is most feasible.*

And I can take all the BS you can deliver for my vegies.


----------



## MrBurns

Just watching QT, Gillard is rude and ignorant , no other way to describe it, every time she's asked a question she fisdtly takes a swipe at the opposition instead of answering the question then assisted by the Speaker she goes on and on without being pulled up without addressing the question at all.
Disgraceful.


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> Just watching QT, Gillard is rude and ignorant , no other way to describe it, every time she's asked a question she fisdtly takes a swipe at the opposition instead of answering the question then assisted by the Speaker she goes on and on without being pulled up without addressing the question at all.
> Disgraceful.




Probably impossible for you Burns'o, but try to forget/divorce yourself for a moment on which party you support and take note of Abbott doing the same thing you describe of Gillard, as he does and as politician's have always done across the floors of Parliaments.

Remember Whitlam and Fraser going toe to toe gangbusters in the good old days.


----------



## Ijustnewit

Another $75.3 million cash splash, this time for the arts. How are we going to fund these promises?
 Emptying the kitty on the way out the door.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-...st-cultural-policy-in-almost-20-years/4569608


----------



## Ves

MrBurns said:


> Just watching QT, Gillard is rude and ignorant , no other way to describe it, every time she's asked a question she fisdtly takes a swipe at the opposition instead of answering the question then assisted by the Speaker she goes on and on without being pulled up without addressing the question at all.
> Disgraceful.



You're clearly a first time viewer.   They all do the very same thing you just described.  It's one of the shortcomings of an oppositional system to parliament.


----------



## MrBurns

Ves said:


> You're clearly a first time viewer.   They all do the very same thing you just described.  It's one of the shortcomings of an oppositional system to parliament.




No I watch it all the time but never get used to Gillards foul manner.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> Just watching QT, *Gillard is rude and ignorant *, no other way to describe it, every time she's asked a question she fisdtly takes a swipe at the opposition instead of answering the question then assisted by the Speaker she goes on and on without being pulled up without addressing the question at all.
> Disgraceful.




Burns, are you on a retainer from Tony Abbott?

A day does not go by without at least one insult from the Burns, usually many and unnecessarily vicious and cat like.

Many people come to this forum for reasonable discussion, you are a just a blight on ASF.


----------



## Ves

MrBurns said:


> No I watch it all the time but never get used to Gillards foul manner.



Do you watch it with rose colored glasses when someone else comes on, then?


----------



## MrBurns

Ves said:


> Do you watch it with rose colored glasses when someone else comes on, then?




Dont tell me you cant see the spiteful nastiness in Gillard that no one else demonstrates ?


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Burns, are you on a retainer from Tony Abbott?
> 
> A day does not go by without at least one insult from the Burns, usually many and unnecessarily vicious and cat like.
> 
> Many people come to this forum for reasonable discussion, you are a just a blight on ASF.




You dont come here for discussion, you attack anyone who doesnt like your Juliar, you actually go quite berserk, it's amusing.


----------



## Ves

MrBurns said:


> Dont tell me you cant see the spiteful nastiness in Gillard that no one else demonstrates ?



I think it just comes out in a different way to the others.  Most of them are pointlessly argumentative, childish, off-topic, brash, arrogant, spiteful, nasty or a whole host of other things.

I'm not really disagreeing with you about Gillard - but I don't think she stands out any more than some of the other high profile "heavy hitters" they sit up the front.


----------



## MrBurns

Ves said:


> I think it just comes out in a different way to the others.  Most of them are pointlessly argumentative, childish, off-topic, brash, arrogant, spiteful, nasty or a whole host of other things.
> 
> I'm not really disagreeing with you about Gillard - but I don't think she stands out any more than some of the other high profile "heavy hitters" they sit up the front.




It might be her voice that makes it worse but it's very annoying that she uses every question to insult the opposition and all without answering the question at all and the spreaker lets her get away with it.


----------



## sails

Macquack said:


> ...A day does not go by without at least one insult from the Burns, usually many and unnecessarily vicious and cat like....




LOL - so it's not OK for mrburns to do it, but it's OK for Gillard, who holds the highest office in the land, to sling insults in parliament?

You have to be joking...surely


----------



## noco

Well it did not take long for this lieing, cunniving and cheating Prime Minister of ours to come out and blame Abbott for the rabble shouting abuse from the Gallery Parliament yesterday.

If the truth is know she probably stage showed the whole thing herself to try and make Abbott look bad in the eyes of the public just like she stage showed the Aboriginal riot . 

Nothing would surprise me with that woman.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...wards-parliament/story-fn59niix-1226596432379


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Well it did not take long for this lieing, cunniving and cheating Prime Minister of ours to come out and blame Abbott for the rabble shouting abuse from the Gallery Parliament yesterday.
> 
> If the truth is know she probably stage showed the whole thing herself to try and make Abbott look bad in the eyes of the public just like she stage showed the Aboriginal riot .
> 
> Nothing would surprise me with that woman.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...wards-parliament/story-fn59niix-1226596432379




Just another example of Gillard underestimating the electorate.

She blames Abbott for the public's lack of respect for her office, obviously she has not studied history.
Respect is given to office, however if that position of office is abused, the plebs revolt.lol


----------



## noco

This is Socialism ( Communism) at its best. Close down the media from being able to criticize the Government.

Listen to News ltd CEO Kim Williams view on Conroys legislation which he (Conroy) wants passed by the end of next week.

Gillard is once again sweetning up the independants to assure their vote by throwing more borrowed money into their electorates.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/med...labor-media-plan/story-e6frg996-1226596787641


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> This is Socialism ( Communism) at its best. Close down the media from being able to criticize the Government.
> 
> Listen to News ltd CEO Kim Williams view on Conroys legislation which he (Conroy) wants passed by the end of next week.
> 
> Gillard is once again sweetning up the independants to assure their vote by throwing more borrowed money into their electorates.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/med...labor-media-plan/story-e6frg996-1226596787641




Guess why they want this through next week ?

Oh yes there's an election coming up and we dont want anyone saying bad things about us.

Transparent communists in the Lodge.


----------



## chops_a_must

MrBurns said:


> Guess why they want this through next week ?
> 
> Oh yes there's an election coming up and we dont want anyone saying bad things about us.
> 
> Transparent communists in the Lodge.




Communists? Hardly.

Didn't Howard do something very similar with the CSIRO?


----------



## MrBurns

chops_a_must said:


> Communists? Hardly.
> 
> Didn't Howard do something very similar with the CSIRO?




Really.......who cares, this is 2013, and yes communists, Gillard is a dictator.


----------



## chops_a_must

I do find it funny.


----------



## noco

Pehaps we may not have too much to worry about with Conroy's so called "MEDIA REFORMS" as he may struggle to it get passed in the Senate let alone the lower house.

Surprise, surprise, Craig Thomson is against the legislation.






http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ys-media-reforms/story-fncyva0b-1226597257892


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> Really.......who cares, this is 2013, and yes communists, Gillard is a dictator.




Yeh, and Hitler was a dictator but not a communist.   

And in not caring I gather you just shoot from the hip for effect and without knowing too much either.


----------



## MrBurns

explod said:


> Yeh, and Hitler was a dictator but not a communist.
> 
> And in not caring I gather you just shoot from the hip for effect and without knowing too much either.




No it means I dont use the past to justify the present or excuse poor Govt "because so and so did it decades ago"


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> No it means I dont use the past to justify the present or excuse poor Govt "because so and so did it decades ago"




So you don't think Abbott is a disciple of Howard ?


----------



## waza1960

> So you don't think Abbott is a disciple of Howard ?




  I think he is and thats what I like about him.
 John Howard was one of our best prime ministers he made mistakes 
  but he had convictions and stood up for them.
  Unlike the rabble we have now who just want to hang onto power for the sake of it
  and don't believe in anything except their own interests.


----------



## drsmith

You know Labor have given up when they put Craig Thomson in front of the media to defend the cause.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/med...edia-reform-push/story-e6frg996-1226597176104


----------



## Julia

chops_a_must said:


> I do find it funny.



What exactly do you find so amusing?



drsmith said:


> You know Labor have given up when they put Craig Thomson in front of the media to defend the cause.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/med...edia-reform-push/story-e6frg996-1226597176104



So Craig Thomson has a go at payback to the government for not supporting him, and they retaliate by putting him back in his box.
Neither action has anything to do with good governance of media and everything to do with their own petty squabbling. Pathetic.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

waza1960 said:


> I think he is and thats what I like about him.
> John Howard was one of our best prime ministers he made mistakes
> but he had convictions and stood up for them.
> Unlike the rabble we have now who just want to hang onto power for the sake of it
> and don't believe in anything except their own interests.




Agree.

When history is writ in 100 years time, this mob will be harshly judged, and Honest John Howard will be seen as a Menzies of his era.



drsmith said:


> You know Labor have given up when they put Craig Thomson in front of the media to defend the cause.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/med...edia-reform-push/story-e6frg996-1226597176104




Craig is Craig. He never ceases to deliver.



Julia said:


> What exactly do you find so amusing?
> 
> 
> So Craig Thomson has a go at payback to the government for not supporting him, and they retaliate by putting him back in his box.
> Neither action has anything to do with good governance of media and everything to do with their own petty squabbling. Pathetic.




Best point of thread and defines the ALP at present, and my ALP mates are ballistic in anger and shame at the behaviour of the present incumbents, from Gillard to Mathieson, Swan to Conroy, an embarrassment of Labor values.

gg


----------



## moXJO

Labor caught using rubbery figures, what a surprise. I'd say labor is putting out a fair bit of the old rubber numbers. But then Libs are not much better either. 

I'm really not looking forward to the next election.






chops_a_must said:


> I do find it funny.




Welcome back chops, couldn't resist the lure of reading ASF political rantings in an election year


----------



## Logique

The SMH quotes an unnamed MP: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/media-bill-threatens-leadership-20130314-2g3kj.html



> ..Fairfax Media has been told the* NSW Right faction has shifted* substantially towards former prime minister Kevin Rudd, with *nearly all of its MPs now backing change* in a leadership showdown.
> 
> ''It's the judgment thing again,'' said one MP of the media package. ''She has delayed and delayed and then at five minutes to midnight lands this.''
> 
> The MP warned any members heading back to their electorates that unless they were on margins above ''10 per cent'', they faced losing their seats unless a leadership change occurred.
> 
> ''Something has to be done.''..
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-leadership-20130314-2g3kj.html#ixzz2NYJGyoUd


----------



## sptrawler

moXJO said:


> Labor caught using rubbery figures, what a surprise. I'd say labor is putting out a fair bit of the old rubber numbers. But then Libs are not much better either.




It was interesting the bureau of statistics briefed the government on the fact the unemployment figures were incorrect.
But when has Gillard let the truth get in the way of an opportunity.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...out-to-be-rubbery-figures-20130314-2g3lc.html


----------



## Calliope

Fiji's dictator is "flattered" that Gillard and Conroy are following his lead in limiting the freedom of the press. 



> Fiji's Ministry of Information secretary Sharon Smith Johns, said the Pacific nation appeared to have paved the way for Australia: "When we implemented some of the same provisions in our Media Decree two years ago, we were roundly criticised for suppressing media freedom."Yet it now appears, from Labor's proposed legislation, that it actually regards us as pioneers.
> 
> "We're flattered that Australia is emulating our lead but wonder why Fiji was subjected to such prolonged protest at the time from Labor, the unions and elements of the Australian media."
> 
> She claimed Australia's position "smacked of a double standard"



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ia-reform-ambush/story-e6freuy9-1226597699255


----------



## bunyip

That lunatic Bob Brown was another one who wanted to limit the freedom of the press.


----------



## noco

How low can this rotten Green/Labor left wing socialist (communist) Government go.

They know they cannot win the pending election in September so there strategy is to leave as much damage and devastation  as possible for the Coalition when they win Government.

Gillard, Swan and Conroy could not care less about our country, the working people, families and pensioners. They are intent on leaving as bigger mess as possible. They should be ashamed of themselves and I hope they are brought to justice and have to pay the price.

Read the link below.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...nd-burn-strategy/story-e6frg75f-1226597642601


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> How low can this rotten Green/Labor left wing socialist (communist) Government go.
> 
> They know they cannot win the pending election in September so there strategy is to leave as much damage and devastation  as possible for the Coalition when they win Government.




It's called the scorched earth policy. It was adopted by the Russians while retreating during the German invasion.


----------



## Ves

Calliope said:


> It's called the scorched earth policy. It was adopted by the Russians while retreating during the German invasion.



It worked, did it not?


----------



## sptrawler

Their motives are becoming so obvious they are doing irrepairable damge to Labor. IMO

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/conroy-runs-distraction-for-pm-20130315-2g5w0.html

They would have salvaged the position if they had gone to an election late last year. This long election campaign is a massive mistake and will end up getting everyone offside.


----------



## IFocus

Ves said:


> It worked, did it not?




LOL along with Order No. 227


----------



## Logique

Greens reserve right to vote against Conroy media bills
March 17, 2013 - 10:21AM - SMH, Judith Ireland, Breaking News Reporter



> The Australian Greens are reserving the right to vote against the federal government's controversial media reforms this week, according to communications spokesman Scott Ludlam, who says his party in unhappy about having a gun held to its head.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...media-bills-20130317-2g8dd.html#ixzz2NlzBSq00


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> LOL along with Order No. 227






> Order 227 was an order by the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR. It stated that cowards, deserters, and defeatists would be dubbed as "traitors" and be shot on sight.




What are you laughing at you galah? Do you see a similar role here for the People's Commissar for Censorship?


----------



## MrBurns

The Labor party are so exciting I can hardly wait to see what stupid idea they'll dream up this week


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> The Labor party are so exciting I can hardly wait to see what stupid idea they'll dream up this week



Make Bill Shorten leader.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-no-real-ness-bills-view-on-leadership-i.html


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Make Bill Shorten leader.
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-no-real-ness-bills-view-on-leadership-i.html



Ouch, Michael Smith doesn't pull any punches. 



> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-no-real-ness-bills-view-on-leadership-i.html
> ...Bill, you have to be able to do things,to achieve, to manage, to deliver.   An ad agency can create what you've set out as the election winning formula - and *an ad-agency bears a striking resemblance to what's left of Labor.  All sizzle, no steak*..


----------



## Logique

Has anyone told Newspoll about this.

Nielsen: curtains for Gillard with Labor 44 to 56 - http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sen_curtains_for_gillard_with_labor_44_to_56/


> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sen_curtains_for_gillard_with_labor_44_to_56/
> ..The telephone survey of 1400 people, taken from Thursday, March 14, *to Saturday, March 16*, also showed Ms Gillard’s satisfaction rating continuing to drop and Mr Abbott’s continuing to improve with the *Opposition Leader now preferred prime minister by 49 per cent* of voters against *Ms Gillard on 43 per cent - down 2 points*..


----------



## dutchie

Logique said:


> Ouch, Michael Smith doesn't pull any punches.




Has him down pat. He would be like Gillard as PM - out of his depth.


----------



## dutchie

Logique said:


> Has anyone told Newspoll about this.
> 
> Nielsen: curtains for Gillard with Labor 44 to 56 - http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sen_curtains_for_gillard_with_labor_44_to_56/




She's young and naive so does not take any notice of any polls.

Going...., going.....,


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> She's young and naive so does not take any notice of any polls.
> 
> Going...., going.....,




"If I haven't flinched yet, why would I flinch now? she told Fairfax.

"I'll just keep getting on with it and dealing with the issues that actually matter and all of this kind of side commentary can do whatever it does. It's not going to deter me or distract me."

It's all about me, sydrome showing through nicely.

Obviously the electorate, don't agree with her, on the "issues that actually matter".


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> "If I haven't flinched yet, why would I flinch now? she told Fairfax.
> 
> "I'll just keep getting on with it and dealing with the issues that actually matter and all of this kind of side commentary can do whatever it does. It's not going to deter me or distract me."
> 
> It's all about me, sydrome showing through nicely.
> 
> Obviously the electorate, don't agree with her, on the "issues that actually matter".




Yes it's all about her and there's no one in Labor , no lap dog with the balls to stand up the her it seems.


----------



## dutchie

My question is - what is the point of this government continuing on till September?

Who will benefit from extending this governments reign to then - certainly not Australia.

And if Labor was honest with itself neither will they gain anything. It can only get worse as the electorate gets madder and madder with Labor.

If Gillard continues with this charade just so that she can stay in power another few months then not only will she be known as the worst PM in Australia's history but also the most selfish.

The people have spoken for a long time now and by setting the date for an election so early Gillard has focused the electorate to what needs to happen *now*. Stalling will be counter productive.

If she is of a mind to leave a big a mess as possible for the Liberals to clean up, just for spite, then she is being traitorous. That's what it looks like to me.

Australia has suffered for five years now with no relieve in sight. Its time for Gillard and Labor to go.

"Its the right thing to do"


----------



## Logique

dutchie said:


> My question is - what is the point of this government continuing on till September?....



Where's the Governor General when you need her. Although she has little jurisdiction in this matter, sadly.


----------



## Calliope

dutchie said:


> My question is - what is the point of this government continuing on till September?
> 
> Who will benefit from extending this governments reign to then - certainly not Australia.




Both the Coalition and Australia will benefit.

1. Labor headed by Gillard will be an easy-beat.

2.  Any election held between now and July 2013 will be for the House of Representatives and the four Territory Senators. There would not be a half-Senate election.

The last thing we need is for Gillard to be deposed. This of course would result in an early election.


----------



## MrBurns

I think Gillard is now working the theory that if you get unpopular enough the downtrodden, ignorant and downright stupid people will identify with you and give you their vote, and there's more of them than us.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> My guess is, they know they are dead men walking, so Gillard will stay.
> The independents and greens are gone, big time.
> So everyone watches Julia, running round like a chook with its head chopped off.
> 
> I wonder how Wilkie, Oakeshott and Windsor are handling their centrelink applications? Only joking they'le pull a pension also.lol




Well obviously the penny has finally droped with Oakeshott.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ts-gillards-media-reforms-20130318-2gb2d.html

Mate a bit late for that $hit, you've allready blown both feet off.lol

No doubt Wikie and Windsor will be trying to get air space, between themselves and the stench soon. 

Over here in W.A the Libs seem to have honoured their Royalties for regions and Brendon Grylls seems happy with the outcomes.

Maybe it's different when you get in bed with people of differing moral standards.
 The only guaranteed outcome is you will be tarred with the same brush, "take that to the bank" 

As the saying goes, you make your bed, you lay in it.


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> and there's more of them than us.




Is that a fact, 

what *a nice* person you are


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Well obviously the penny has finally droped with Oakeshott.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ts-gillards-media-reforms-20130318-2gb2d.html
> 
> Mate a bit late for that $hit, you've allready blown both feet off.lol



Rob Oakshott will be finding the humble pie very difficult to eat.

Even more so Tony Windsor. It will be interesting to see whether or not he finds it completely indigestible.


----------



## Macquack

Who is the cocky rooster in the last photo with his hands way to close to the family jewels for someone aspiring to be PM.


----------



## drsmith

Macquack said:


> Who is the cocky rooster in the last photo with his hands way to close to the family jewels for someone aspiring to be PM.



What's it better to be ?

A cocky rooster or shafted by Labor ?


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> Who is the cocky rooster in the last photo with his hands way to close to the family jewels for someone aspiring to be PM.



That would be the next Prime Minister of Australia 

I didn't know there was any bodily exclusion zones for PMs though


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> That would be the next Prime Minister of Australia
> 
> I didn't know there was any *bodily exclusion zones *for PMs though




Well Wayne, Abbott may as well  have his hand on it, because that is the pose.


----------



## MrBurns

explod said:


> Is that a fact,
> 
> what *a nice* person you are




Think of the average person then understand that more than half the population isn't as smart as them
That's why tv ads work and Julia Gillard is PM


----------



## sptrawler

No doc, my guess is, Rob Oakeshott's internal polling has shown only his wife and immediate familly will vote for him.
It will be an history making election.IMO

Running Australia like some 3rd world country, where you ram your initiatives and agendas down peoples throats, doesn't cut it here.
The difference is the "silent majority" just sit and wait their time.

Unlike a 3rd world country, where you riot on the streets.
This is the dumbest bunch ever to sit in Canberra, IMO.
How posters on this forum, who I tend to think are very pensive, can applaud this goon show. Is beyond belief


----------



## drsmith

Macquack said:


> Well Wayne, Abbott may as well  have his hand on it, because that is the pose.



In one sense, you have a point.

Like Labor in it's reply to Tony Abbott's attempt to suspend standing orders today, you're playing the man and not the ball.


----------



## sptrawler

Just had a thought (yes it did hurt).
I reckon McTernan will do a runner, he won't want a complete thrashing on his resume.
So IMO it will be interesting to see when he pulls the pin.


----------



## dutchie

Macquack said:


> Who is the cocky rooster in the last photo with his hands way to close to the family jewels for someone aspiring to be PM.




What are you looking down there for to be able to make that statement?


----------



## Macquack

dutchie said:


> What are you looking down there for to be able to make that statement?




If Tony Abbott was a child, he would be told to *sit up straight in his chair *(and get his hand off it).


----------



## dutchie

Latest news

An annoyed Minister Conroy has said that, all parliamentarians, who do not vote for his media legislation, will be made to wear red underpants on their heads.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> If Tony Abbott was a child, he would be told to *sit up straight in his chair *(and get his hand off it).




Jeez mate, the way you are going on about it, you must be talking from experience.

Maybe he sits like that, to stop being bitch slapped and kicked in the gonads by ferals.lol


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> Latest news
> 
> An annoyed Minister Conroy has said that, all parliamentarians, who do not vote for his media legislation, will be made to wear red underpants on their heads.




Yes dutchie, I think the problem with Conroy is, most of the blood goes to the small head.lol






That would be Wayne.


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> Latest news
> 
> An annoyed Minister Conroy has said that, all parliamentarians, who do not vote for his media legislation, will be made to wear red underpants on their heads.



If it fails as appears likely, one can imagine the caricature.

Stephen Conroy featuring at the gallows with red underpants, and perhaps Julia Gillard along side him.


----------



## sptrawler

Like I said 6 months of this is going to go badly.
McTernan will do a runner.IMO


----------



## sails

Macquack said:


> Who is the cocky rooster in the last photo with his hands way to close to the family jewels for someone aspiring to be PM.




One track mind, Macquack?  And why do you just pick on Abbott - what are the two guys in the middle photo doing with their hands where we can't see them?  What sick thoughts do you read into that?..:disgust:


----------



## Macquack

sptrawler said:


> Maybe he sits like that, to stop being bitch slapped and kicked in the gonads by ferals.lol




That is funny, he is not even in power yet and he has to protect his balls.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> That is funny, he is not even in power yet and he has to protect his balls.




Well sunshine have a read of this, it is all nasty in your den.lol

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/ministers-desert-pm-20130318-2gbba.html

Looks like you have to protect your genetalia wether in government or opposition.

This is the problem when it implodes, your snipes become self inflicting.


----------



## Macquack

sails said:


> One track mind, Macquack?  And why do you just pick on Abbott - what are the two guys in the middle photo doing with their hands where we can't see them?  What sick thoughts do you read into that?..:disgust:




Loosen up sails, I have not heard you come to the defence of Julia Gillard from the throng of acid tongued vermin who criticise her for her red hair, long ear lobes, fat **** etc.

It is called balanced argument.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/ministers-desert-pm-20130318-2gbba.html



Dear oh dear!

It's appropriate she's pictured wearing red.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> Loosen up sails, I have not heard you come to the defence of Julia Gillard from the throng of acid tongued vermin who criticise her for her red hair, long ear lobes, fat **** etc.
> 
> It is called balanced argument.




I'm not getting on your case here Macquack, but let's keep it balanced.
Everyone was on Jolly fat @rsed Joe Hockey's case. 
So what is your issue with people saying the leader of the country shouldn't project an advert for Maccas.
Every time you saw John Howard he was pumping the pavement, in his late 60's, you need to get out a bit.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Dear oh dear!
> 
> It's appropriate she's pictured wearing red.




Bob's already been through "Surviving dying government 101" lol

I would think Gillard and Conroy are writing "Minority Government for Dummies" 
It has been a sad experiment.


----------



## Boggo

The situation they have got us in - Ross Greenwood.

extract from article...

First thought: Gillard, Swan, Wong, and before that Rudd, and all of
the Labor Cabinet call these temporary borrowings, a temporary
deficit.
Remember Those Words : TEMPORARY DEFICIT.
The total Government debt will end up around $200 billion.
So here's a very basic calculation... I used a home loan calculator
to work it out..... it's that simple..
$200 billion is two hundred thousand million dollars.
The current 10 year Government bond rate is 4.67 per cent. I
worked the loanout over a period of 20 years. Now here's where it
gets scary .... really scary.
The repayments on $200 billion come to more than one and a
quarter billion dollars - every month - for 20 years. It works out
that we - as taxpayers - will be repaying $15.4 billion in interest
and principal every year .. $733 for every man woman and child -
every year.
The total interest bill over the 20 years is - get this - $108 billion.
Remember, this is a Government that just 4 years ago had NO
debt. NO debt.
In fact, it had enough money to create the Future Fund, to pay the
future liabilities of public servants' superannuation, and it had
enough to stick $20 billion into the Building Australia Fund .....
A note was sent to me, which explains that the six leading
members of the Government, from Ms Gillard down, have a
collective work experience of 181 years, but only 13 years in the
private sector.
If you take out of those 13 years the number that were spent as
trade union lawyers, 11 years, only two years were spent in the
private sector.
So out of those 181 years:
- no years spent running their own business
- no years spent starting their own business
- no years spent as a director of a family business or a company
- no years as a director of a public company
- no years in a senior position in a public company
- no years in a senior position in a private company
- no years working in corporate finance
- no years in corporate or business restructuring
- no years working in or with a bank
- no years of experience in the capital markets
- no years in a stock-broking firm
- no years in negotiating debt facilities with banks
- no years running a small business
- no years at the World Bank or IMF or OECD
- no years in Treasury or Finance.
But these people have plunged Australia into unprecedented debt.
Well, in a way you can't blame them.
It's clear the electorate did not do their homework, because the
Government is there by right.
Ah, but they are Labor and people vote for them because Labor is
good for the working family - right???


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Bob's already been through "Surviving dying government 101" lol
> .



Indeed.

He got his carbon tax, talked about aliens and did a runner.



sptrawler said:


> I would think Gillard and Conroy are writing "Minority Government for Dummies"
> It has been a sad experiment.




It will be a long way behind Colin Barnett's edition and I would suggest, Tony Abbott's.

*Chapter 1:* Don't abandon what you promised under a government you lead.


----------



## sptrawler

The problem Labor has now is, it is a bit like a party where it wasn't fun to be at anyway.

Then they say, it folds up in 2hrs time, everyone packs up and f*cks off in the next ten minutes.

Well labor has to live with that for 6 months, thick as bricks.lol


----------



## bunyip

sptrawler said:


> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/ministers-desert-pm-20130318-2gbba.html





In my opinion there’s no way these Labor socialists will stand by and do nothing while Gillard leads them over a cliff in September.
They dumped Rudd because he was leading them towards the precipice. I think they’ll dump Gillard for the same reason.
My guess is that Rudd will challenge long before September, and he’ll have the numbers to win.
I can well imagine what’s going on behind the scenes in the Labor party.
In the meantime I’m getting immense enjoyment from watching the death throes of the worst government in Australian history.


----------



## Calliope

It is scary to think that our freedom of speech rests in the hands of this motley crew.





http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> My guess is that Rudd will challenge long before September, and he’ll have the numbers to win.
> I can well imagine what’s going on behind the scenes in the Labor party.
> In the meantime I’m getting immense enjoyment from watching the death throes of the worst government in Australian history.



Perhaps consider that Rudd, returning as the martyred saviour, may well have the numbers ultimately to beat Tony Abbott.  I wouldn't be getting too triumphant at this stage.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> It is scary to think that our freedom of speech rests in the hands of this motley crew.



Craig Thomson has been in discussion with Stephen Conroy and may weaken on his current stance (ABC radio news).


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Perhaps consider that Rudd, returning as the martyred saviour, may well have the numbers ultimately to beat Tony Abbott.  I wouldn't be getting too triumphant at this stage.



If Abbott can't defeat Rudd or anyone else Labor puts in charge of its smoking ruins, he doesn't deserve to win.

I'm more of the view that Labor will be defeated at the election, regardless of who leads it. It's much more than its current leader that's on the nose.

I still consider it unlikely that Julia Gillard will go the distance as Labor will want to do something, anything to minimise the carnage at the next election.


----------



## waza1960

As a coalition voter who despises this labor government I hope Gillard continues as PM until she is annihilated in the next election.


  As an Australian citizen I hope she goes and an election is called ASAP.....What a conundrum


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Perhaps consider that Rudd, returning as the martyred saviour, may well have the numbers ultimately to beat Tony Abbott.  I wouldn't be getting too triumphant at this stage.




Yes Julia, I've already considered that in my earlier posts, and for that reason I expressed the hope that they’ll leave Gillard right where she is.

All things considered though, I still think Rudd would lose against Abbot, but he’d come a lot closer to rolling him than Gillard would. So let’s just hope that the incompetent bastard stays away from the Labor leadership, and that Gillard continues to lead them to destruction.


----------



## Miss Hale

Calliope said:


> It is scary to think that our freedom of speech rests in the hands of this motley crew.
> 
> View attachment 51380
> 
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/




:1zhelp:


----------



## sptrawler

I see Julia is back on the sexist bandwagon again, the sexist one is starting to become obvious and it isn't Abbott.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16399076/media-bills-vote-not-a-confidence-vote-pm/


----------



## drsmith

Julia Gillard tries to play the same card twice, this time out of order.



> “The Prime Minister answered the question and then she, as an aside, said for some unknown reason 'misogynist Tony is back',” Mr Pyne shouted.
> 
> “I would ask her to withdraw it because it is a slur on the Leader of the Opposition and a desperate play from the Prime Minister.”
> 
> Ms Gillard agreed to withdraw the comment and Mr Pyne was ordered out of the parliamentary chamber.
> 
> The reference to “misogynist Tony” recalled the Prime Minister’s so-called misogyny speech to parliament last year, when she accused Mr Abbott of sexism.



The speaker Anna Bourke actually had to ask the PM to withdraw it twice as the first withdrawal was not without qualification. The second was.

These are the among the final breaths of a PM close to political death.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...of-misogyny-slur/story-fn59niix-1226600921268


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I see Julia is back on the sexist bandwagon again, the sexist one is starting to become obvious and it isn't Abbott.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16399076/media-bills-vote-not-a-confidence-vote-pm/



Forget the merit, it's a contest between a woman and a man.

That's all she has left.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Forget the merit, it's a contest between a woman and a man.
> 
> That's all she has left.




I wish there was a trigger for an earlier action she's so arrogant it's getting hard to take.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> I wish there was a trigger for an earlier action she's so arrogant it's getting hard to take.




There is nothing wrong with arrogance, it's just sad when the arrogance is lacking substance to support it.

I'm in W.A and to see a political party parachute in a media personality to unseat a prime minister, well it doesn't get more shallow than that. 
When you stand for nothing other than re election, your circle of friends is very small.


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> Julia Gillard tries to play the same card twice, this time out of order.
> 
> 
> The speaker Anna Bourke actually had to ask the PM to withdraw it twice as the first withdrawal was not without qualification. The second was.
> 
> These are the among the final breaths of a PM close to political death.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...of-misogyny-slur/story-fn59niix-1226600921268




Why was Pyne ordered from the chamber? Surely not for asking the PM to withdraw her comment?


----------



## bellenuit

Miss Hale said:


> Why was Pyne ordered from the chamber? Surely not for asking the PM to withdraw her comment?




I would assume the ruling 94A relates to behaviour in parliament. Pyne was an idiot today. He blew a golden opportunity to show Gillard up as someone who will play the gender card at every opportunity. Now all will just remember him losing his cool. I know the following has been edited by Labor supporters, but that is no way for anyone to act.


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> I wish there was a trigger for an earlier action she's so arrogant it's getting hard to take.




I meant earlier election of course
Using an iPhone and Tapatalk to post can be hazardous


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Why was Pyne ordered from the chamber? Surely not for asking the PM to withdraw her comment?




I didn't see Pynes outburst as anything worse than I've seen in the house before
"A desperate play from a desperate prime minister" was a measured and acurate statement and a lot tamer than what most would like to have said
But madam speaker to Gillards defence as usual


----------



## MrBurns

Rudd pulled out of a joint press conference with Gillard this morning ..... It's on.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Rudd pulled out of a joint press conference with Gillard this morning ..... It's on.



Kevin Rudd or Simon Crean ?

Fairfax is still pushing the story,

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-turn-their-eyes-to-crean-20130319-2gdnq.html

As for the events in parliament yesterday, this is what happened, including Christopher Pyne's ejection,



> "Let me say very clearly to the Leader of the Opposition, it will be a contest counterintuitive to those believing in gender stereotypes but a contest between a strong, feisty woman and a policy-weak man, and I will win it."
> 
> In the furore that followed, she made her allegation "Misogynist Tony is back".
> 
> Amid the uproar, manager of opposition business Christopher Pyne leapt to his feet and repeated the word, demanding that the Speaker make her withdraw.
> 
> "It is a slur on the Leader of the Opposition and a desperate ploy by a desperate Prime Minister," he yelled, before being ejected.
> 
> Former attorney-general Nicola Roxon interjected when he rose, "two policy-weak men".
> 
> Ms Burke said she had not heard the Prime Minister's remarks but asked her to withdraw.
> 
> "If the Leader of the Opposition is upset in any way then I withdraw," she said.
> 
> As Coalition members erupted in fury, Ms Burke ordered the Prime Minister to apologise "unreservedly" and sat down manager of government business Anthony Albanese as he attempted to take a point of order.
> 
> Ms Burke again ordered Ms Gillard to withdraw. The Prime Minister finally obliged.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-julia-gillard/story-fn59niix-1226601067210


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd or Simon Crean ?
> 
> Fairfax is still pushing the story,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-turn-their-eyes-to-crean-20130319-2gdnq.html
> 
> As for the events in parliament yesterday, this is what happened, including Christopher Pyne's ejection,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...or-julia-gillard/story-fn59niix-1226601067210




It's called desperation.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd or Simon Crean ?




I thought I heard Rudd but probably Crean come to think of it, why would Rudd be having a press conference with Gillard anyway ?......


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I thought I heard Rudd but probably Crean come to think of it, why would Rudd be having a press conference with Gillard anyway ?......



More on your earlier point from News,



> Ms Gillard and Mr Rudd this morning where scheduled to attend a function for indigenous training - an important issue for both - but sent apologies and didn't show.
> 
> The Prime Minister was due to "pop in" to a GenerationOne breakfast with billionaire miner Andrew "Twiggy" Forrest and Tony Abbott that started at 7.15am.
> 
> But her spokesman confirmed to News Limited at 7.45am she would no longer be attending.
> 
> "She was originally down to pop in but the morning is just becoming too busy," the spokesman said.
> 
> Kevin Rudd's office also confirmed the former Prime Minister pulled out of the GenerationOne event this morning because he didn't want to face the media scrum.
> 
> ''He didn't want to be seen as a distraction,'' his spokesman said.




Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...or/story-fncynjr2-1226601010695#ixzz2O28UGnr1


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> More on your earlier point from News,
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...or/story-fncynjr2-1226601010695#ixzz2O28UGnr1




Thanks.......the humiliation she foisted on Rudd is about to be paid back


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Thanks.......the humiliation she foisted on Rudd is about to be paid back




The media frenzy continues to grow,



> SUPPORT for Kevin Rudd to replace Julia Gillard has gained momentum after senior parliamentary figures in both camps confirmed that the Prime Minister's majority in the 102-person Labor caucus is now in serious doubt.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ajority-in-doubt/story-fnhqeu0x-1226601360773

And this from Fairfax's live politics page,



> Chief government whip and Rudd man, Joel Fitzgibbon, has told Fairfax Media's Tim Lester that: "I'm too honest in politics. But I wear that as a badge of honour. The newspapers are full of it so the public must conclude that something must be going on....*It would be silly to tell people watching your program that there is nothing going on.*"




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-march-20-2013-20130320-2gecr.html

My bolds.


----------



## Miss Hale

bellenuit said:


> I would assume the ruling 94A relates to behaviour in parliament. Pyne was an idiot today. He blew a golden opportunity to show Gillard up as someone who will play the gender card at every opportunity. Now all will just remember him losing his cool. I know the following has been edited by Labor supporters, but that is no way for anyone to act.





Thanks.  Yes, I saw that.  Nothing wrong with what he said or did as far as I am concerned, he had to shout to be heard over the din.  Given that the speaker made Gillard apologise it would seem she argreed Pyne had a point, so why order him from the chamber?  I have a lot of trouble understanding how parliament is conducted.  One day you can get away with anything, the next you are ordered from the chamber for no reason, seems highly subjective to me.

Gillards line about a fiesty women versus a policy free man was pathetic.  Why is she bringing gender into the debate again?  I thought she was against that?  Taking out whether it's a man or a woman, why is fiesty preferrable to policy free anyway?   She has no idea....


----------



## drsmith

Simon Crean on process and outcome.



> The long-time Gillard backer left no doubt about his views on the handling of the media reform package that was brought to cabinet last week with no notice and then forced on an unwilling Parliament. ''The process could've been handled better and I've made the point on previous occasions. We get hung up more about issues around lack of process than we do the content . . .,'' Mr Crean said.




The process though impacts the outcome. 

Everyone knows that, so I can only assume that Labor's initial process was to seek an outcome that suited them politically.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/pms-chamber-of-horrors-20130319-2gdo5.html


----------



## drsmith

No evidence that the party is about to change leader according to Joel Fitzgibbon, but it's silly to tell people there's nothing going on ??

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ng-on-on-labor-leadership-20130320-2geox.html

Leadership coups or challenges are rarely pre-announced.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> No evidence that the party is about to change leader according to Joel Fitzgibbon, but it's silly to tell people there's nothing going on ??
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ng-on-on-labor-leadership-20130320-2geox.html
> 
> Leadership coups or challenges are rarely pre-announced.




She's as cunning as a ****house rat, she'll work it somehow so she doesn't look like a loser.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> She's as cunning as a ****house rat, she'll work it somehow so she doesn't look like a loser.



The only way she can achieve anything like that is if its anyone else but Kevin Rudd.

If she achieve that while on her way out, that will at least be something positive.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The only way she can achieve anything like that is if its anyone else but Kevin Rudd.
> 
> If she achieve that while on her way out, that will at least be something positive.




She might step down rather than let it go to a vote blaming the Murdoch press and Tony the misogynist.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> She might step down rather than let it go to a vote blaming the Murdoch press and Tony the misogynist.



I can only guess at this point, but I reckon the party today is encouraging her to step down in favour of a third_ furniture-saving _option.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> I can only guess at this point, but I reckon the party today is encouraging her to step down in favour of a third_ furniture-saving _option.




I think she's too proud to face a vote and that's what would happen.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I think she's too proud to face a vote and that's what would happen.



More fizz than bang if it was to play out that way, but she would at least be no longer leading the party or the government.


----------



## Ves

The whole "Gillard is going to resign in the next week" / "Labour will have a new leader by the end of the week" is starting to sound like _the boy who cried wolf._

Of course, we all know if you keep saying it it might eventually come true.

Perhaps now I've commented she will make an idiot out of me?


----------



## Calliope

While union corruption continues unabated, Gillard and Conroy have set their sights on muzzling the print media that has exposed the union corruption. Without the print media we not would learned about the Gillard/Wilson AWU slush fund skulduggery. Conroy's regulator could simply rule that exposure was not in the public interest.



> Yet the former union officials and industrial lawyers who dominate the Gillard government are not prepared to confront these very real, very serious and very current matters of public interest very close to home. Instead, the factional warlords have turned the Labor Party's sights on to the print media; which has helped to expose these scandals.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-retrograde-step/story-e6frg71x-1226601015429


----------



## drsmith

Ves said:


> The whole "Gillard is going to resign in the next week" / "Labour will have a new leader by the end of the week" is starting to sound like _the boy who cried wolf._
> 
> Of course, we all know if you keep saying it it might eventually come true.
> 
> Perhaps now I've commented she will make an idiot out of me?



One way or another, Labor can't kick the can down the road for ever.

The longer they wait, the greater the pain that will inflicted by the electorate.


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> She's as cunning as a ****house rat, she'll work it somehow so she doesn't look like a loser.







She already looks like a loser to me.


----------



## sptrawler

IMO there is no way Gillard will be deposed or step down.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/the-numbers-game-20130320-2gfxh.html

If this government had any guts, it would not have capitulated to the greens.
The chance of any of them standing up to a tonque lashing from Julia, is beyond the pale.
It won't happen.
It will be a Fiesty woman fails miserably, in September.


----------



## nulla nulla

It is highly likely that no-one wants to take the leadership from her at this point and have history record them as losing the election in September.


----------



## noco

Gillard is slow train wreck waiting to happen.

I believe this media shamozzle will diminish her authority and if there is to be a change it will have to happen within the next 24 hours.

If she does resign or is pushed over the cliff, I doubt she will hang around the back benches with Kevin 07 and this surely must bring on an early election.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...comes-under-fire/story-fn59niix-1226602046046


----------



## Logique

nulla nulla said:


> It is highly likely that no-one wants to take the leadership from her at this point and have history record them as losing the election in September.



Rudd doesn't have the numbers. I think she will survive again.


----------



## noco

Niki Savva sums up Julia Gillard extremely well as she (Niki) explains how Gillard attempts pull out all the stops just to stay in power. 

What a ruthless, savage and cunning woman we have as leader of this great country of ours.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-belt-and-misses/story-fnahw9xv-1226601947061


----------



## Logique

Yes Savva does indeed. In the same edition, Greg Sheridan's piece touches on what so many of us have feared, but it's behind a paywall.



> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-europes-disease/story-e6frg76f-1226601945553
> *ALP has spread Europe's disease*
> BY:GREG SHERIDAN, FOREIGN EDITOR From: The Australian March 21, 2013 12:00AM
> 
> Six years of Labor government, by this year's election in September, will result in a new Australia. We have contracted the European disease. Labor has taken us towards the most spectacularly unsuccessful model of government in the developed world today. We will have almost all the European pathologies but none of the European security of a big local market and a benign security environment.
> 
> *Europe's present distress is our future*. Everyone knows that part of Europe's problem is excessive welfare. As Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel has remarked, Europe has 7 per cent of the world's population, 25 per cent of global gross domestic product and 50 per cent of the world's welfare payments.


----------



## waza1960

> , but it's behind a paywall.




  Remember you can copy the headline into google with the word "news "and gain access to the full article


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> What a ruthless, savage and cunning woman we have as leader of this great country of ours.




+1


----------



## dutchie

Gillard accused Abbott of "not understanding" global economics  (people in glass houses)

But more seriously Gillard has "no understanding" of the Australian electorate.

Let me put it in plain English for you Julia:  

Australia just wants you to #iss off!!


----------



## bunyip

nulla nulla said:


> It is highly likely that no-one wants to take the leadership from her at this point and have history record them as losing the election in September.




I think Rudd would be delighted to take the leadership from her, and would move immediately to do so if he had the numbers.


----------



## drsmith

The Caucus overall has little confidence in either of its two self-interested gladiators who are again slugging it out.

Their only answer is a third option, but they are clearly struggling there as well. 

It's a terrible mess for Labor which will only get worse if they don't act.


----------



## Calliope

Another apology!



> We apologise, PM tells victims of forced adoptions.




She speaks with a forked tongue of course. She should apologise to all of us for her nasty behavior as PM.


----------



## drsmith

The differences within are really boiling to the surface now.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-back-pm-or-quit/story-fnhqeu0x-1226602208807


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The differences within are really boiling to the surface now.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-back-pm-or-quit/story-fnhqeu0x-1226602208807




It cant go on like this for much longer.........


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> It cant go on like this for much longer.........



Another possibility is that she might just jump to the polls herself.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/03/may-election.html#comments


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Another possibility is that she might just jump to the polls herself.
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/03/may-election.html#comments




She'd be mad to go now into certain defeat........there's really no way out for her, she might resign take the loot and run and leave all the losing to whoever takes over, I think that's more her style...........slink away.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> She'd be mad to go now into certain defeat........there's really no way out for her, she might resign take the loot and run and leave all the losing to whoever takes over, I think that's more her style...........slink away.



If she sees it that way, she'll call a spill or as you say, resign.

A May election though may be her best prospect of preserving her legacy, bearing in mind the Senate. 

The remaining media reforms are dead according to the breaking news crawler on ABC24. This was perhaps the so-called great negotiator's last line of defence.

EDIT: Simon Crean is about to front another press conference (ABC24).


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> If she sees it that way, she'll call a spill or as you say, resign.
> 
> A May election though may be her best prospect of preserving her legacy, bearing in mind the Senate.
> 
> The remaining media reforms are dead according to the breaking news crawler on ABC24.




If she calls a spill and wins the Labor Party looks worse than ever, if she loses she's humiliated.

I think she would resign or just hang in there but the way things are that's becoming almost impossible.

I think Crean is hoping it will fall into his lap.


----------



## drsmith

The fireworks are on.

Simon Crean is calling for a spill. He won't run as leader but will be part of an alternative leadership group.

He's wants Kevin Rudd to run as leader and would support him as leader.

EDIT: It's going to be down to the Caucus to call the spill. Crean said Gillard won't.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The fireworks are on.
> 
> Simon Crean is calling for a spill. He won't run as leader but will be part of an alternative leadership group.
> 
> He's calling for Kevin Rudd to run as leader.




You beauty !!! 

I know this increases Labors vote but really .......anything to get rid of Gillard


----------



## Ijustnewit

MrBurns said:


> You beauty !!!
> 
> I know this increases Labors vote but really .......anything to get rid of Gillard




Wilke said he would call it in yesterday at a press conference , if this happened. Could be an early election ?


----------



## MrBurns

Ijustnewit said:


> Wilke said he would call it in yesterday at a press conference , if this happened. Could be an early election ?




Yes it will be earlier to take advantage of the NEW improved Rudd, it will be good to see him deal with the Gillard supporters first


----------



## drsmith

Judging by Simon Crean's comments, He and Kevin Rudd disagree on who should be deputy leader. 
He wants Caucus to elect him as deputy leader however Kevin Rudd has alternative ideas.

Not a good start for the mutineers.


----------



## Ijustnewit

MrBurns said:


> Yes it will be earlier to take advantage of the NEW improved Rudd, it will be good to see him deal with the Gillard supporters first




Yes the same dog but different spots , what do you think Labors chances are of an election victory if Rudd is bought back ? I personally think they would walk it in given that most of the general public have A. No Memory and B. Don't realize the Labor team as a whole is a bunch of useless .....  responsible for the worst mess we have seen for many years.


----------



## drsmith

Question time today should be better than usual.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Question time today should be better than usual.




Get the popcorn out and settle inopcorn:

Oh she wont turn up of course


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> You beauty !!!
> 
> I know this increases Labors vote but really .......anything to get rid of Gillard



That's a short sighted view.  Labor could very well win the election with Rudd as leader.  Is that what you want?

I'm confused about what Simon Crean's loyalties actually are.  He has called for the spill and said that he will be backing Rudd.  In the next sentence (ABC Radio) he said (paraphrasing) that Rudd has to stop his game playing and front up to a contest once and for all.  The two statements seem counter intuitive.  The only explanation I can come up with is that he genuinely is focused on the overall good of his party, rather than personal interest, and is recognising they have way more chance with Rudd, yet he despises Rudd.

Whichever, it's hardly a recipe for success.


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> It cant go on like this for much longer.........




It won't. Crean has asked Gillard to have a spill, which he doesn't expect her to do. In which case he is calling on the caucus to act.  He has thrown his weight behind Rudd, but demands that Rudd change his leadership style.

I can't see the caucus refusing to act, if Gillard doesn't cause a spill. I also can't see Gillard win, either if nothing happens or there is a spill. Crean says he would resign from cabinet if Gillard were to win (but presumably also if nothing happens).

Today's the day.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> That's a short sighted view.  Labor could very well win the election with Rudd as leader.  Is that what you want?
> 
> Whichever, it's hardly a recipe for success.




I look at it this way, I cant change what is happening now but Labor cant win even with Rudd in charge, the only good out of this and call it justice if you like, is that Gillard gets what's coming to her.

I would prefer that to happen at the election but that's not to be it seems.


----------



## Miss Hale

And now we have question time 

Sounds like Rudd might have the numbers, hopefully he will seize the momentum and go to an early election and the electorate can have their say.


----------



## drsmith

Spill on.

4:30pm today.


----------



## waza1960

I don't think Rudd can win the election......
  Think of the ads the Coalition could and would show of his colleagues sticking the knife in during his last challenge


----------



## MrBurns

waza1960 said:


> I don't think Rudd can win the election......
> Think of the ads the Coalition could and would show of his colleagues sticking the knife in during his last challenge




Rudd has no hope but Labor will get more votes with him rather than Gillard if they run early.


----------



## Miss Hale

Blimey! Now I know why I never bother to watch question time, I don't thin I can't take much more of Gillard going on again about 'relentless negadividy'.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Blimey! Now I know why I never bother to watch question time, I don't thin I can't take much more of Gillard going on again about 'relentless negadividy'.




This was a good day you should see her normally, it's just horrible,


----------



## MrBurns

She is tough, so tough it might be a medical condition, her performance in QT today was squarely aimed at bluffing the weaklings she's trained to stick by her, she may even win the ballot.


----------



## drsmith

Will Kevin Rudd run ?


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Will Kevin Rudd run ?




I think he will, he has no real choice, no one else has the numbers.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> This was a good day you should see her normally, it's just horrible,




At least today it was mercifully short  

It still seems like a shammozle.  Crean wants to be deputy but Rudd doesn't want him, some doubt if Rudd is even going to run.  Will the Labor party be any better off after this spill?  Disunity is death....


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Get the popcorn out and settle inopcorn:



Tony Abbott's suspension of standing orders to debate a no confidence motion in the PM didn't get up as it needed an absolute majority (76), buy it did get a majority on the floor (73/71)

Of significance is that Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott supported it.



> 2:47pm: Windsor, Wilkie and Oakeshott voted with the Opposition.
> 
> Slipper and Thomson voted with the Government.
> 
> Bob Katter was not present.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-21-march-2013-20130321-2ggsv.html


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I think he will, he has no real choice, no one else has the numbers.



Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott have given him (or any other alternative) a leg up.

They have clearly demonstrated they no longer have confidence in Julia Gillard.


----------



## drsmith

The punters are betting against Gillard.

Sportbet had Rudd as PM at the next election at $1.50 yesterday, ~$1.80 this morning and $1.28 now (leadership challenge).

http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...itics/Australian-Federal-Politics-631837.html


----------



## McLovin

Rudd won't challenge!


----------



## Miss Hale

McLovin said:


> Rudd won't challenge!




 +1

Edited to add:  Didn't have the numbers I suppose.


----------



## drsmith

Miss Hale said:


> Edited to add:  Didn't have the numbers I suppose.



He must not have. 

I wonder what Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott will do now ?


----------



## McLovin

drsmith said:


> He must not have.
> 
> I wonder what Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott will do now ?




The independents sided with the Opposition to suspend standing orders which was done in order to move a motion of no confidence in the PM.

I just get the feeling something is going to break soon.


----------



## MrBurns

What a mess


----------



## noco

Gillard is still Prime Minister.


----------



## CanOz

> (AU) Australia Party Leadership vote: Gillard Remains Prime Minister after party meeting, was unopposed - Source TradeTheNews.com




Well there ya go...lives to be defeated.


----------



## MrBurns

Oh hell, how can she Govern now ?


----------



## explod

noco said:


> Gillard is still Prime Minister.




I nice photo of her in the age today, if I was a bit younger a bloke could go for her, no worries.  I spose being an ole shearer does not qualify like Time the Toff, but some may say she could do with a bit of dagging, though it hangs out a bit the lines are clean and of course the nose serves as a good counterbalance.

Well the contest looks pretty even now as long as the Libs hang onto Abbott who could not say anything constructive or positive to save himself.

I still hold that Turnbull would cause the greatest landslide to the conservatives in Aussie History.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Oh hell, how can she Govern now ?



Like she has up to this point.


----------



## MrBurns

Didn't Crean say he would quit if she won ?


----------



## Sean K

This is all a joke right?


----------



## drsmith

kennas said:


> This is all a joke right?



Not only can't they run a chook raffle, they have also become a disappointment as a form of light entertainment.

At least for the moment anyway.


----------



## Miss Hale

I think this is the best possible outcome from today's shenanigans for the Coalition, Labor have come out of this looking like dills. (Personally, I would have liked to have had the opportunity to vote sooner though and I'm worried about what further damage Gillard will do to the country between now and September).


----------



## MrBurns

Rudd now looks like a dud, and it probably is the best outcome for the Libs, but we have to wait 6 months.........


----------



## explod

MrBurns said:


> Rudd now looks like a dud, and it probably is the best outcome for the Libs, but we have to wait 6 months.........




Always was a Dud, they threw him out because he could not delegate, good shiny boy for photo shots but in real management he was hopeless.

Now Burnsie ole Pal, this is your chance to have a bit of a break, maybe go over to the Fatherland and watch the cricket.  and a banghead for you too champ.

Back on topic,  maybe we should start a movement whereby the people take over government and we do it from the streets.  Stopping the cars would be a saving straight away.


----------



## skc

Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where he went to space...

Head of NASA: [Barney runs off drunk and wastes his chance at being an astronaut] Well, Homer, I guess that makes you the winner by default...
Homer: Default? The two sweetest words in the English language! De-FAULT! De-FAULT! De-FAULT!
NASA Assistant: [clubs Homer with a police sap]
Head of NASA: Where'd you get that thing?
NASA Assistant: Sent away.


----------



## Logique

Logique said:


> Rudd doesn't have the numbers. I think she will survive again.



Like I said. And like Laurie Oakes said, the only winner today was Tony Abbott. Looks like Labor are going full term, if they don't tear themselves apart first.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Logique said:


> Like I said. And like Laurie Oakes said, the only winner today was Tony Abbott. *Looks like Labor are going full term*, if they don't tear themselves apart first.




More than likely, the poor bastard will be still-born......


----------



## waza1960

> Rudd now looks like a dud, and it probably is the best outcome for the Libs, but we have to wait 6 months.........




 I actually think Rudd tactically came out on top. 
He probably didn't have the numbers , he looks good to his party and some of the public (gave his word not to challenge) and his nemesis is mortally wounded.
I doubt if we will have to wait 6 mths something will give IMO...
  Anyway its all good fun watching labor self destruct


----------



## drsmith

waza1960 said:


> I actually think Rudd tactically came out on top.



He certainly owed Simon Crean no favours and the Libs haven't taken long with their own take on that.


----------



## noco

There will be an interesting poll next week.

I would hate to predict it after what happened today.

If News Poll gives her a boost, I would say they working for Tony Abbott just to make it easier come election time.

 I think News Poll wants to keep Gillard as Prime Minister to make sure Labor gets a drubbing of the highest order..


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> There will be an interesting poll next week.
> 
> I would hate to predict it after what happened today.
> 
> If News Poll gives her a boost, I would say they working for Tony Abbott just to make it easier come election time.
> 
> I think News Poll wants to keep Gillard as Prime Minister to make sure Labor gets a drubbing of the highest order..




+1 This has been a terrible day for Labor.

So much for calling the election very early, so they can get on with governing. 
That seems like the furthest thing from their minds.
Also it would be a novel experience for them.


----------



## IFocus

Interesting day I think Crean set Rudd up to fail knowing Rudd didn't have the numbers but wanted to bury Rudd which is what the out come will be.

Of course one vote Tony will be begging on the side lines that we have to have an election.......has any one told him yet after nearly three years..........


----------



## noco

sptrawler said:


> +1 This has been a terrible day for Labor.
> 
> So much for calling the election very early, so they can get on with governing.
> That seems like the furthest thing from their minds.
> Also it would be a novel experience for them.




Irespect of what happened today, I believe it was designed to further weaken Gillard as leader.

As Dennis Shanahan states, only a miracle can save Gillard now.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...save-gillard-now/story-e6frg75f-1226601974748


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> There will be an interesting poll next week.
> 
> I would hate to predict it after what happened today.
> 
> If News Poll gives her a boost, I would say they working for Tony Abbott just to make it easier come election time.
> 
> I think News Poll wants to keep Gillard as Prime Minister to make sure Labor gets a drubbing of the highest order..



I reckon Labor's Primary support will be in the high 20's in the next Newspoll.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Interesting day I think Crean set Rudd up to fail knowing Rudd didn't have the numbers but wanted to bury Rudd which is what the out come will be.




I think you have called it dead right.
Labor know they are going to be creamed, this is all about the internal battle between the unions and the moderates in Labor.
The unions are fighting for their survival in the Labor party.
If it is an absolute flogging in the election, the union influence in Labor will be over, they are in real trouble.
Selling out to the Greens was never a good option. 
This is the problem when you put yourself before the team, the team ends up losing.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> ...Of course one vote Tony will be begging on the side lines that we have to have an election.......has any one told him yet after nearly three years..........




IF, in case YOU hadn't noticed, it's the majority in this country who are impatient for an election.  Recent polls show the majority do not want this labor government any more.

Tony is simply in tune with the majority on this issue and it seems you enjoy insulting the majority of voters in this country.  Good luck with that...


----------



## Whiskers

noco said:


> I think News Poll wants to keep Gillard as Prime Minister to make sure Labor gets a drubbing of the highest order..




No doubt the media barons had their two bobs worth of lobbying recently, probably a bit more suttle or at least not as conspicuous as the mining lobby. I expect Rudd had a little smile as he saw it all turning more sour for Gillard.


----------



## noco

And in the meantime, the boats keep coming and Labor is still borrowing $100 million a day to pay for the illegals welfare.


----------



## dutchie

noco said:


> And in the meantime, the boats keep coming and Labor is still borrowing $100 million a day to pay for the illegals welfare.




Thats why we need an election now.

Australia can't afford Labor, morally or financially, for another 6 months.


Election now - "it's the right thing to do"


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> I reckon Labor's Primary support will be in the high 20's in the next Newspoll.




I hope so if any Govt deserved to be eliminated it's this one.

Trouble with Labor is they are so pathetic and lacking in talent someone like Gillard can roll the lot of them, once again the Australian taxpayer foots the bill for these clowns and funds their retirement.


----------



## shag

kennas said:


> This is all a joke right?



yeah send her home, the screaming crooked witch n along with that scottish twit who u struggle to understand n uses this n volume to overtalk everyone, wong may as well go back too, shes taken to screaming too n as useless as most at the top of them.
u get a bit sick of poms etc comming out and trying to tell the Colonianals what to do etc, as if they know better. unions were built on it. their preselection process abuses democracy n skews representation such as this.

like 300bill debt....for nought. as the twit would yell if honest.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> I think you have called it dead right.
> Labor know they are going to be creamed, this is all about the internal battle between the unions and the moderates in Labor.
> The unions are fighting for their survival in the Labor party.
> If it is an absolute flogging in the election, the union influence in Labor will be over, they are in real trouble.
> Selling out to the Greens was never a good option.
> This is the problem when you put yourself before the team, the team ends up losing.




I don't think its a factions survival thing more a case of Rudd and or his supporters sniping from the side lines causing chaos plus some politically woeful decisions by Gillard that will see annihilation at the next poll.

Crean I think tried to stir up the party to either resolve Rudd one way or another or dump everyone and start again. When you go to a spill motion any thing can and will happen Abbotts one vote win is an excellent example.

As for the calls for an election now based on polls or the behaviour of a fraud opposition leader from others maybe they haven't followed politics for very long.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> As for the calls for an election now based on polls or the behaviour of a fraud opposition leader from others maybe they haven't followed politics for very long.



Tony Abbott is calling for an election on the basis of the incompetence of the current government.

It was a sentiment that Tony Windsor, Rob Oakeshott and Andrew Wilkie agreed with in the house yesterday. Oakshott and Windsor's support of Tony Abbott's move yesterday to suspend standing orders to put forward a no confidence motion in the PM was extraordinary in light of them being part of the government. 

Even today explosions continue at the house of the ALP. Rudd supporter Chris Bowen has resigned from the Gillard Cabinet (ABC radio news).


----------



## Aussiejeff

drsmith said:


> Tony Abbott is calling for an election on the basis of the incompetence of the current government.
> 
> It was a sentiment that Tony Windsor, Rob Oakeshott and Andrew Wilkie agreed with in the house yesterday. Oakshott and Windsor's support of Tony Abbott's move yesterday to suspend standing orders to put forward a no confidence motion in the PM was extraordinary in light of them being part of the government.
> 
> Even today explosions continue at the house of the ALP. Rudd supporter Chris Bowen has resigned from the Gillard Cabinet (ABC radio news).




We await the ultimate resignation with belated breath...unfortunately far from resigning as is our wont, the incumbent will need to be dragged kicking and shrieking from office after the party is over.


----------



## Calliope

The mystery is...how could such a boofheaded, gutless windbag have fooled so many people for so long?




Kevin Rudd was pumped up in Parliament at 12:35pm (left) but by 4:15pm said he wouldn't challenge for the leadership.


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> The mystery is...how could such a boofheaded, gutless windbag have fooled so many people for so long?




It's a mystery to me too.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> The mystery is...how could such a boofheaded, gutless windbag have fooled so many people for so long?
> .




They're Labor supporters they'll believe anything, just ask Bob Hawke.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Tony Abbott is calling for an election on the basis of the incompetence of the current government.
> 
> It was a sentiment that Tony Windsor, Rob Oakeshott and Andrew Wilkie agreed with in the house yesterday. Oakshott and Windsor's support of Tony Abbott's move yesterday to suspend standing orders to put forward a no confidence motion in the PM was extraordinary in light of them being part of the government.
> 
> Even today explosions continue at the house of the ALP. Rudd supporter Chris Bowen has resigned from the Gillard Cabinet (ABC radio news).





Abbott has been doing this since he failed to form government.

The independents certainly made a point but if they wanted to they could have bought the government down this they didn't do.

And plenty of fall out to come I think mostly negative for Labor.

A rampant Abbott as PM with a massive mandate is where we are headed I think, serious threat for Australia as he pays back the right I suspect.


----------



## drsmith

Kevin Rudd today,



> "Mr Rudd has said consistently over the last 12 months that he would not challenge for the Labor leadership and that he would contest the next election as a local member of Parliament at the next election. That position has not changed."
> 
> "Furthermore, Mr Rudd wishes to make 100 per cent clear to all members of the parliamentary Labor Party, including his own supporters, that *there are no circumstances under which he will return to the Labor Party leadership in the future.*"




Time will tell.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-march-22-2013-20130322-2gjkw.html


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd today,
> 
> 
> 
> Time will tell.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-march-22-2013-20130322-2gjkw.html





Rudd already had plenty of opportunity to quieten his supporters which he didn't that speaks to what he is about


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Abbott has been doing this since he failed to form government.



I share his view that it's largely been an incompetent government since it was formed.



IFocus said:


> The independents certainly made a point but if they wanted to they could have bought the government down this they didn't do.



Tony Windsor hates the Nationals and Tony Abbott in particular and as a group these independents want to preserve their legacy with policies such as the carbon tax. Their best chance of that is to preserve the current administration as long as possible, no matter how bad it is.



IFocus said:


> And plenty of fall out to come I think mostly negative for Labor.
> 
> A rampant Abbott as PM with a massive mandate is where we are headed I think, serious threat for Australia as he pays back the right I suspect.



There's no doubt the country would indeed be better served with two strong political parties motivated by the betterment of the country and its people as a whole.



IFocus said:


> Rudd already had plenty of opportunity to quieten his supporters which he didn't that speaks to what he is about



In relation to Rudd's character, it also speaks volumes about a party that is split close to 50/50 between him and his current leader.


----------



## dutchie

IFocus said:


> Abbott has been doing this since he failed to form government.
> 
> The independents certainly made a point but if they wanted to they could have bought the government down this they didn't do.
> 
> And plenty of fall out to come I think mostly negative for Labor.
> 
> A rampant Abbott as PM with a massive mandate is where we are headed I think, serious threat for Australia as he pays back the right I suspect.




More like he starts repairing the massive damage Labor has done to Australia.


----------



## IFocus

dutchie said:


> More like he starts repairing the massive damage Labor has done to Australia.




That is certainly the spin Abbott will run but reality is its power and politics.

As for damage the bulk of Australians are better off today than when Labor 1st came to power (but hay who can ague with Abbott spin) whether that continues under Abbott remains to be seen but really it has little to do with government and their decisions more to do with good luck and world economic conditions.

Of course governments do get to decide where each slice of the pie goes, note Howard didn't look after pensioners and the political powerless end at all now thats real politics.


----------



## Whiskers

IFocus said:


> That is certainly the spin Abbott will run but reality is its power and politics.
> 
> As for damage the bulk of Australians are better off today than when Labor 1st came to power (but hay who can ague with Abbott spin) whether that continues under Abbott remains to be seen but really it has little to do with government and their decisions more to do with good luck and world economic conditions.
> 
> Of course governments do get to decide where each slice of the pie goes, note Howard didn't look after pensioners and the political powerless end at all now thats real politics.




There is no doubt that benificaries of the welfare system and maybe certain sections of the business community are much better off under Labor. 

I agree one thing Abbott needs to do is continue to tone down the political spin. In this highly technological age, people can catch you out so fast with bad spin and hurt your reputation very quickly. While he has not put foot-in-mouth too much, he needs to generate more positive karma with the electorate, not rely so much on negative sentiment for Labor.

To combat Rudd, he will need to be seen to be taking the higher moral and ethical road in his demeanour and policy statements.


----------



## MrBurns

Martin Ferguson....gone.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-...s-as-labor-spill-claims-another-scalp/4589062


----------



## MrBurns

MrBurns said:


> Martin Ferguson....gone.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-...s-as-labor-spill-claims-another-scalp/4589062




Excellent speech.............Gillard has destroyed some decent people in her quest for power:bad:


----------



## dutchie

Forced adoption victims 'disgusted' at Labor spill


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-22/forced-adoption-victims-disgusted-at-labor-spill/4588552


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> Martin Ferguson....gone.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-...s-as-labor-spill-claims-another-scalp/4589062




That's a shame.  He's one of the few Labor MPs that I thought wasn't too bad.


----------



## drsmith

The non-believers in Julia Gillard's leadership are one by one jumping ship.

Next up to the plank will be Kim Carr (Fairfax).

Meanwhile, Simon Crean continues his public rants on Kevin Rudd.


----------



## MrBurns

All that's left is Gillards lapdogs, Australia is Gillard playground now for the next 6 months.


----------



## drsmith

Kim Carr has jumped. 

Next up Kevin Rudd.

I'm not sure what's left for him to say at this time. He's already been splashing in the water for a very long time and now more than ever, is gasping for breath.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> Rudd already had plenty of opportunity to quieten his supporters which he didn't that speaks to what he is about



That's so true.  Yet now he seems to have made the definitive statement that "there are no circumstances in which I will ever again lead the Labor Party".   He has been pretty successful in wreaking his revenge and perhaps thinks they can complete their self annihilation with no further assistance from him.
Who would know?   Rudd seems to have an infinite capacity for trickiness.



Whiskers said:


> I agree one thing Abbott needs to do is continue to tone down the political spin. In this highly technological age, people can catch you out so fast with bad spin and hurt your reputation very quickly. While he has not put foot-in-mouth too much, he needs to generate more positive karma with the electorate, not rely so much on negative sentiment for Labor.



Agree.  He is also socially and politically inept at times.  Example is yesterday when addressing the group gathered to hear Gillard's apology about forced adoptions:  he referred in his speech to 'birth *parents!
*Mr Abbott, the whole point was that babies were taken from single mothers against their will.  If there had been 'parents' the babies would not have been removed.  Further, he apparently suggested the babies were 'relinquished' which implies some voluntary action on the part of the young mothers which was not the case.

It's pretty extraordinary that in a really sensitive subject like this, he still cannot get his language right.



MrBurns said:


> Excellent speech.............Gillard has destroyed some decent people in her quest for power:bad:






drsmith said:


> The non-believers in Julia Gillard's leadership are one by one jumping ship.



Yes, they will be much the weaker for the loss of Chris Bowen and Martin Ferguson.



> Meanwhile, Simon Crean continues his public rants on Kevin Rudd.



Can't blame Crean for feeling pretty bitter.  He went out on a limb and was left hanging there by Rudd.

What a mess all round.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Can't blame Crean for feeling pretty bitter.  He went out on a limb and was left hanging there by Rudd.



According to Kim Carr (in his current media interview), no one came with Simon Crean to support Kevin Rudd. I've also seen this reported in media commentary.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Kim Carr has jumped.
> 
> Next up Kevin Rudd.
> 
> I'm not sure what's left for him to say at this time. He's already been splashing in the water for a very long time and now more than ever, is gasping for breath.




Rudd might do everyone a favour and resign.............


----------



## ROE

need to call the election now ... how can you the country when you have front bench reshuffle every few months..


----------



## Julia

Tony Windsor losing his resolve, perhaps?







> Independent MP Tony Windsor says he d support the opposition s right to move a no confidence motion.
> 
> AAP  © Independent MP Tony Windsor says he'd support the opposition's right to move a no confidence motion.
> 
> Federal Independent MP Tony Windsor says he'd support the opposition's right to move a no confidence motion to test the Gillard government's numbers.
> 
> The opposition will put a motion of no confidence in the government at the next sitting of parliament - budget day, May 14.
> 
> Mr Windsor wouldn't indicate whether he would support the motion, saying he would wait until Opposition Leader Tony Abbott moved it.
> 
> But he says he'd support Mr Abbott's right to seek leave to test the market place.
> 
> "I think it's a debate that needs to be had and (I'm) quite happy to participate in it," he told the Nine Network.
> 
> "I've been saying to him for a couple of years if he believes that the membership of the house doesn't have confidence in the government, test it in the house, and that's exactly what he should do if he believes that, then we'll all know what the numbers are."


----------



## Country Lad

Anybody mentioned that Martin Ferguson pulled the pin?  I don't read all these political threads

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## moXJO

Whiskers said:


> There is no doubt that benificaries of the welfare system and maybe certain sections of the business community are much better off under Labor.
> 
> .




The only business better off are those providing kickbacks to the unions. Business has been set back 30 years under this government.


----------



## moXJO

I lol when I saw this reply



> What ever it takes of Toon Town Posted at 4:00 PM Today
> If anyone ever wondered what sort of circus you would get if you spent $300 Billion, we are watching it right before our eyes. New name for the ALP, Circus Oz Party.


----------



## Miss Hale

Blimey!  They're dropping like flies


----------



## Miss Hale

Julia said:


> Agree.  He is also socially and politically inept at times.  Example is yesterday when addressing the group gathered to hear Gillard's apology about forced adoptions:  he referred in his speech to 'birth *parents!
> *Mr Abbott, the whole point was that babies were taken from single mothers against their will.  If there had been 'parents' the babies would not have been removed.  Further, he apparently suggested the babies were 'relinquished' which implies some voluntary action on the part of the young mothers which was not the case.
> 
> It's pretty extraordinary that in a really sensitive subject like this, he still cannot get his language right.




I disagree, I was listening to what he said and couldn't for the life work out why people were heckling him.  I don't think he said anything wrong at all. Even if he had expressed himself clumsily (which I don't think he did)  it was inapproriote to heckle someone in that context. Makes me think there was an agenda there.


----------



## drsmith

The week wouldn't be complete without some bile from Mark Latham.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...fitzgibbon-and-richardson-20130321-2gik7.html

As for Kev's speech, I think he's been to Hungry Jacks too many times.

I suspect that's it for the resignations.


----------



## DB008

N.T. News Cover - LOL!
(read under the picture)


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> N.T. News Cover - LOL!
> (read under the picture)



One thing I liked about the NT News many years ago was the cartoons by Wicking.


----------



## Whiskers

Well... Gillard won the battle of wits and mitigated the damage in the short term, from speculation about the leadership... but the orchestra plays on with resignation after happy, smiley resignation. 

Surely she is being successfully railroaded into being left with more unpaletable decisions re the formation of an acceptable government and ultimately quitting parliament for the good of the Labor party!  

The party will eventually recognise the sentiment of both Rudd and Gillard, 'this party ain't big enough for both of us'. One of them has to go. For my money, Gillard is the fight and flight type. I expect she is likely to quit politics altogether a-la Howard if deposed... leaving the way open for Rudd to be overwhelmingly drafted back into the job.


----------



## qldfrog

IFocus said:


> That is certainly the spin Abbott will run but reality is its power and politics.
> 
> As for damage the bulk of Australians are better off today than when Labor 1st came to power



labour supporter or not, it would be nice to live in the real world, open your eyes, my 14y old son will still pay the debt we are gathering daily when he will be my age
you can have conviction, ideal, (I am not a fanatic of TA either) and support labour for this but it would be very nice to see some people living in the real world.
Do you live in Canberra? That is probably the only place where what you state could be true.
I seriously believe saying what you say is an insult to Australian intelligence
Anyway, plenty of right wing people can follow on this one , but please...


----------



## sptrawler

Whiskers said:


> Well... Gillard won the battle of wits and mitigated the damage in the short term, from speculation about the leadership... but the orchestra plays on with resignation after happy, smiley resignation.
> 
> Surely she is being successfully railroaded into being left with more unpaletable decisions re the formation of an acceptable government and ultimately quitting parliament for the good of the Labor party!
> 
> The party will eventually recognise the sentiment of both Rudd and Gillard, 'this party ain't big enough for both of us'. One of them has to go. For my money, Gillard is the fight and flight type. I expect she is likely to quit politics altogether a-la Howard if deposed... leaving the way open for Rudd to be overwhelmingly drafted back into the job.




Does she have to be in the Prime Ministers position for a certain period before she qualifies for all the associated pension and perks?


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> I disagree, I was listening to what he said and couldn't for the life work out why people were heckling him.  I don't think he said anything wrong at all. Even if he had expressed himself clumsily (which I don't think he did)  it was inapproriote to heckle someone in that context. Makes me think there was an agenda there.




Yes it was an over-reaction to a very mild breach of PC. Perhaps the "mummy bloggers" were behind it.


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> I disagree, I was listening to what he said and couldn't for the life work out why people were heckling him.  I don't think he said anything wrong at all



You think it was OK for him to refer to 'birth parents' when the issue was all about single mothers?



> . Even if he had expressed himself clumsily (which I don't think he did)  it was inapproriote to heckle someone in that context. Makes me think there was an agenda there.



Sure.  The group would have been Tony Abbott haters in the first place.
But imo all the more reason not to give them any reason to dissent from what he said.
It would not have been that hard to give a speech which left no room for them to have a go at him.

We can all agree about the ridiculous level PC has come to.  But that's the reality amongst parts of the electorate.
I see no reason to throw away votes when you can appease people with more carefully chosen words.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> You think it was OK for him to refer to 'birth parents' when the issue was all about single mothers?



What would have been better for him to say ?


----------



## sails

Very difficult to arrive here on earth without two parents...

There may have been dads who would have liked to know their child.  I don't think Abbott was out of line at all.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> What would have been better for him to say ?



Fairly obviously to just refer to the mothers which was what the issue was all about.
Gillard managed to do it pretty well.  
That's not a comment on her sincerity or otherwise, but recognises her capacity on this occasion to understand what her audience wanted to hear.  Imo Mr Abbott should have done likewise.
Seems like an unimportant issue to most of us, but it was hugely important to that group of women who have waited fifty years for the apology and who travelled from all points to Canberra for the occasion.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> Very difficult to arrive here on earth without two parents...



Sails, you're of an age when you should clearly remember the stigma attached to unmarried mothers.
Usually, the father of the child was nowhere to be seen, and the girl bundled off somewhere to endure her pregnancy and the birth out of the public eye.  Some of these young girls were forced to have their babies locked alone in a broom cupboard, such was the punitive nature of the social mores of that time.  Then they were not allowed to see their children after the delivery, despite their wish to keep them.  I'm not sure, but I don't think there was any single mother's pension in those days.  Certainly there was a widespread stigma attached to any young woman bearing a child without a husband.

Just contrast that with how much welfare is available to single mothers these days.  Not to mention publicly funded IVF for lesbians etc.

Don't you think those young mothers of fifty years ago are due some sort of apology for the inhumane way they were treated?

I'd hate to think some of the judgements being made now, and on this thread,  relate to an ongoing moral condemnation of young women who made a mistake in a time when reliable contraception was unavailable.


----------



## Calliope

If Christine Milne hates Martin Ferguson, then that in my opinion is a ringing endorsement for him. Ferguson is the only ex-union official in the party who refuses to indulge in class warfare.



> The Greens welcomed the departure of Mr Ferguson, their long-time nemesis, saying the fossil fuel industry had never had a greater advocate in cabinet than the former minister.
> 
> “His departure offers Labor the opportunity to embrace the renewable energy age and fix the mining tax,” Greens leader Christine Milne said.
> 
> “This is Labor's chance to halt the expansion of coal ports in Queensland, the on-rush of coal seem gas and the destruction of James Price point in the Kimberley.”
> 
> Senator Milne also claimed the Greens would attempt to unseat Mr Ferguson at the next election in his Victorian seat of Batman.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-leadership-coup/story-fnhqeu0x-1226603503254


----------



## Miss Hale

Julia said:


> You think it was OK for him to refer to 'birth parents' when the issue was all about single mothers?




Actually it wasn't the word 'parents' instead of 'mothers' it was the use of the decriptor 'birth' that caused offence apparently.  The fact that you are defending the objection to what Abbott said on different grounds demonstrates to me how ridiculous this all is.  No offence was intended and heckling someone in this situation shows a lack of manners, he wasn't doing a stand up comedy act and this was a bi-partisan event.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> If Christine Milne hates Martin Ferguson, then that in my opinion is a ringing endorsement for him. Ferguson is the only ex-union official in the party who refuses to indulge in class warfare.



Class warfare serves the Greens purposes.

Whether it's Christine Milne or Bob Brown, the Greens have no grace along with no interest in the wellbeing of our nation.


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> Actually it wasn't the word 'parents' instead of 'mothers' it was the use of the decriptor 'birth' that caused offence apparently.



Really?  Do you have a link that affirms that?  It's not as I heard it.  This is from today's "The Australian".


> TONY Abbott has been heckled at today's apology to victims of forced adoptions after he used the terms "birth parents" and "relinquished", which members of the audience considered offensive.



Which is pretty much what I commented on originally.
I agree that their heckling was unforgivably rude and unnecessary.

 FWIW, I think any apology is about as useful as the Rudd apology to aboriginals for the so called stolen generation.
But obviously it means a great deal to the people concerned, and I don't see why  - if politicians are going to make any sort of apology/comment - they wouldn't be at pains to ensure it couldn't possibly offend anyone.

Let's just be realistic about the preciousness of the society Labor has created.  We are all, apparently, very easily offended and always ready to demand an apology.  I heard earlier today that the group concerned here is now demanding an apology from Simon Crean for spoiling what should have been their day with his interruption of the leadership spill.  

Yes, it's unreasonable.  But these people vote.  In addition to having sympathy for what these women went through fifty years ago, my main point is that surely it's better to make a speech which cannot offend anyone if you want their vote.


----------



## drsmith

Laurie Ferguson in a scathing attack on two more Rudd supporters is not satisfied with the Labor blood already spilt (ABC).


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Let's just be realistic about the preciousness of the society Labor has created.  We are all, apparently, very easily offended and always ready to demand an apology.  I heard earlier today that the group concerned here is now demanding an apology from Simon Crean for spoiling what should have been their day with his interruption of the leadership spill.
> 
> Yes, it's unreasonable.  But these people vote.  In addition to having sympathy for what these women went through fifty years ago, my main point is that surely it's better to make a speech which cannot offend anyone if you want their vote.



They're not a majority and it's hard not to offend anyone in the preciousness of today's society that you describe. Coal mining offends the Greens even though that was the fuel of the industrial revolution. 

It's impossible to be all things to all people.


----------



## Miss Hale

Julia said:


> Really?  Do you have a link that affirms that?  It's not as I heard it.  This is from today's "The Australian".




No link, but I heard someone say it on the radio (ABC)



> Yes, it's unreasonable.  But these people vote.  In addition to having sympathy for what these women went through fifty years ago, my main point is that surely it's better to make a speech which cannot offend anyone if you want their vote.




Judging by their reaction, I don't think these people were ever going to vote for Abbott.


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> Judging by their reaction, I don't think these people were ever going to vote for Abbott.




The mistake Abbott made was to be a party to this ridiculous "black armband" apology. What does it achieve? Now some are complaining that they can't get "closure" because the Rudd/Gillard fiasco spoiled their day. Can anyone really believe that a Julia Gillard apology has any meaning apart from being politicaly motivated? It was probably McTernan's idea.


----------



## YMI

Julia said:


> ...Don't you think those young mothers of fifty years ago are due some sort of apology for the inhumane way they were treated?...



I agree absolutely!

But here is something that attracted my attention, however a bit off topic. Of course it is a nice gesture to say sorry. Sorry for the abducted babies, sorry for the stolen generation... The next prospective PM could maybe say sorry for extinguishing Tassie’s original inhabitants. I am sure that will also bring many votes. 

A few days ago I read a story about a hacker who deliberately unveiled a security risk by obtaining 100k email addresses of iPad users in a fairly easy way. Now he goes to jail for 3.5 years and pays $73,000 in image damage although his intention was to do something good – it’s an US story though and a court decision not government, I just try to put the sentence in proportion.

They call that to make an example as a warning.

If a government destroys lives and families, they simply say sorry.

So, to commit a crime it’s better to become a politician first

But again, I am not sure this came now just to gather more votes and I really do think it was a nice gesture of her.


----------



## banco

I'll be very surprised if Ferguson doesn't go to work for mining interests after he leaves parliament.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> The mistake Abbott made was to be a party to this ridiculous "black armband" apology. What does it achieve? Now some are complaining that they can't get "closure" because the Rudd/Gillard fiasco spoiled their day. Can anyone really believe that a Julia Gillard apology has any meaning apart from being politicaly motivated? It was probably McTernan's idea.




Just another diversion again from the real issues.

The boats keep coming and the debt keeps rising $100 million per day.


----------



## MrBurns

The mothers are due for an apology fair enough, but would you actually go to a meeting specifically for that ?
No me neither, the sort of person that does is a little extreme in their views and would hate Abbott anyway, Gillard would find it a piece of cake to win these people over..........just a little false empathy practise for her.

These mothers deserve more than an apology there should be a department set up to try to find lost kids, assess their situation and see if it's appropriate to reunite.


----------



## pilots

Calliope said:


> The mistake Abbott made was to be a party to this ridiculous "black armband" apology. What does it achieve? Now some are complaining that they can't get "closure" because the Rudd/Gillard fiasco spoiled their day. Can anyone really believe that a Julia Gillard apology has any meaning apart from being politicaly motivated? It was probably McTernan's idea.




This post has hit the nail on the head, she we will do anything to stay in power.


----------



## Miss Hale

Miss Hale said:


> No link, but I heard someone say it on the radio (ABC)




The Age:



> Coalition leader Tony Abbott's response, while personal and considered, was unfortunately controversial. He caused grievous offence by referring to ''birth parents'', a bureaucratic terminology that has the effect of denying mothers and fathers any role beyond the moment of birth.




http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/ed...worst-enemy-20130321-2ginc.html#ixzz2OFveyB6k



Calliope said:


> The mistake Abbott made was to be a party to this ridiculous "black armband" apology. What does it achieve? Now some are complaining that they can't get "closure" because the Rudd/Gillard fiasco spoiled their day. Can anyone really believe that a Julia Gillard apology has any meaning apart from being politicaly motivated? It was probably McTernan's idea.




Agree.  This apology was pointless and uneccessary IMO and was nothing other than a chance for easy political points to be scored by Gillard and as we now know a chance to try and further blacken Abbotts name.


----------



## Calliope

pilots said:


> This post has hit the nail on the head, she we will do anything to stay in power.






> Credit where credit is due, the Prime Minister's inner circle knows how to prop its candidate up internally. They may not be much good at running a government, but they sure can count the numbers and strategise how best to time a ballot to maximise Gillard's chances of survival.
> 
> *We'll see how in awe the caucus is of these skills come September 14, when Gillard and her team go up against the most unpopular opposition leader in Australian political history, and are comprehensively demolished*.




Think about it.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...nst-than-sinning/story-fn53lw5p-1226603733638


----------



## drsmith

Paul Kelly's insights are always an interesting read,



> Yet, in another sense, it cannot be over. This saga will be over only when Rudd or Gillard leaves the parliament. While Rudd says there are "no circumstances" in which he will return to the leadership, he has nominated for the next election. So the broken Gillard-Rudd saga will limp into the future.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...rty-is-fractured/story-e6frg74x-1226603793449

Meanwhile, the further blood Laurie Ferguson would like to see spilt,



> While Mr Bowen, Mr Carr and Martin Ferguson resigned yesterday, there was no statement from Mr Albanese, despite speculation from his colleagues that he would have to go because he was implicated in the attempted challenge.
> 
> Similar questions were raised about Mental Health Minister Mark Butler.
> 
> Western Sydney MP Laurie Ferguson, a Gillard supporter and Martin Ferguson's brother, posted a Facebook message yesterday calling Mr Albanese and Mr Butler "gutless" for not resigning.
> 
> Mr Albanese's office made no comment last night.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-of-courage-rudd/story-fn59niix-1226603806937


----------



## dutchie

Australians saw another shamozzle from Labor last week.

Party division that will continue no matter what Kevin and Julia might claim.

Inept governance. The attempted muzzling of freedom of speech by Conroy was a political disaster. But alarmingly a continuation of past form.

Front bench ministers resigning or being sacked.

How on earth can Australians have *any* confidence in the Australian economy with this lot in charge.

The national debt out of control ($270 billion and rising - the interest alone is about $7 billion a year).

There will be no change of this lack of confidence till the Government is changed. If Labor can't see this then they are bigger fools than they have shown over the last 5 years.


Another kick in the guts for confidence 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s-for-confidence/story-e6frg9if-1226603804049





Bring on an early election - "its the right thing to do"


----------



## Miss Hale

I think the most telling aspect of the events of Thursday are the way they are being reported everywhere.  Apart from Labor pollies (and not even all of them) everyone else (print and electronic media (including the partisan ABC), random people on the radio that don't  usually comment on politics, man/woman in the street) is variously describing them as a shambles, farce, debacle, chaos, shamozzle, shenanigans etc. This can only hurt Labor bigtime.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> The mothers are due for an apology fair enough, but would you actually go to a meeting specifically for that ?
> No me neither, the sort of person that does is a little extreme in their views and would hate Abbott anyway, Gillard would find it a piece of cake to win these people over..........just a little false empathy practise for her.
> 
> These mothers deserve more than an apology there should be a department set up to try to find lost kids, assess their situation and see if it's appropriate to reunite.



That would certainly be more useful.  Won't happen though.  An 'apology' is much easier, even if meaningless in terms of making any difference.
If it makes the women affected feel better, though, it's fine with me.  Easy to be dismissive of the feelings of others when we haven't gone through what they have.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> That would certainly be more useful.  Won't happen though.  An 'apology' is much easier, even if meaningless in terms of making any difference.
> If it makes the women affected feel better, though, it's fine with me.  Easy to be dismissive of the feelings of others when we haven't gone through what they have.




I cant believe this happened at all let alone as recently as 1982

How the world changes and evolves.........


----------



## explod

het







Miss Hale said:


> I think the most telling aspect of the events of Thursday are the way they are being reported everywhere.  Apart from Labor pollies (and not even all of them) ever leftsyone else (print and electronic media (including the partisan ABC), random people on the radio that don't  usually comment on politics, man/woman in the street) is variously describing them as a shambles, farce, debacle, chaos, shamozzle, shenanigans etc. This can only hurt Labor bigtime.




The press are just kicking and screaming because they are letting thier big standoveroney boys down and have lost a barking tool.  It is going to die down.

Some of those relegateted to the back benches have been a proplem to labor for years, extreme rights and extreme left commo's.  I think the Government will be more settled now and the media to its chagrin know it.

I would bet that Gillard and co put the team together to get the Rudd thing off thier back deliberately.

It is still a long way to the election and Abbott remains uninspiring.  At the end of the day going crook will not get you over the line, people are not that stupid, when it comes to casting an actual vote at the ballot box it is often very different to polls.


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> Fairly obviously to just refer to the mothers which was what the issue was all about.
> Gillard managed to do it pretty well.
> That's not a comment on her sincerity or otherwise, but recognises her capacity on this occasion to understand what her audience wanted to hear.  Imo Mr Abbott should have done likewise.
> Seems like an unimportant issue to most of us, but it was hugely important to that group of women who have waited fifty years for the apology and who travelled from all points to Canberra for the occasion.






Julia said:


> Sails, you're of an age when you should clearly remember the stigma attached to unmarried mothers.
> Usually, the father of the child was nowhere to be seen, and the girl bundled off somewhere to endure her pregnancy and the birth out of the public eye.  Some of these young girls were forced to have their babies locked alone in a broom cupboard, such was the punitive nature of the social mores of that time.  Then they were not allowed to see their children after the delivery, despite their wish to keep them.  I'm not sure, but I don't think there was any single mother's pension in those days.  Certainly there was a widespread stigma attached to any young woman bearing a child without a husband.
> 
> Just contrast that with how much welfare is available to single mothers these days.  Not to mention publicly funded IVF for lesbians etc.
> 
> Don't you think those young mothers of fifty years ago are due some sort of apology for the inhumane way they were treated?
> 
> I'd hate to think some of the judgements being made now, and on this thread,  relate to an ongoing moral condemnation of young women who made a mistake in a time when reliable contraception was unavailable.




Actually agree for a change it was a time for heighten sensitivity and needed to be treated as such lots of raw emotion of a time past with heavy memories and pain.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Actually agree for a change it was a time for heighten sensitivity and needed to be treated as such lots of raw emotion of a time past with heavy memories and pain.




Of course, any excuse to denigrate Abbott...lol


----------



## drsmith

That wind bag Andrew Wilkie is at it again,



> "I tell you what, if the government doesn't start showing some stability and some competency I think it is going to struggle to get the numbers when that motion of no confidence does come up," he said.




After the betrayal on his pokies reforms and 2 and 1/2 years in office, does he really expect a new Gillard government ?

I don't think so.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...onfidence-motion/story-fnhqeu0x-1226604003355


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> That wind bag Andrew Wilkie is at it again,
> After the betrayal on his pokies reforms and 2 and 1/2 years in office, does he really expect a new Gillard government ?
> I don't think so.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...onfidence-motion/story-fnhqeu0x-1226604003355




Another waste of space at our expense


----------



## Julia

Good summary of recent events by Michelle Grattan.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au...il&utm_content=242469&utm_campaign=pm&modapt=


----------



## drsmith

On Sportsbet, the Coalition is now $1.15 to Labor $5.50.

http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/australian-federal-politics?LeftNav


----------



## Tink

Bring on the election, the Australian people want to start 'moving forward' now.
This is a disgrace 
Everyone I have spoken to wants her out.

I am sick of seeing this woman going off like a pitbull....


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> That wind bag Andrew Wilkie is at it again,
> 
> 
> 
> After the betrayal on his pokies reforms and 2 and 1/2 years in office, does he really expect a new Gillard government ?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...onfidence-motion/story-fnhqeu0x-1226604003355




What is Wilkie on about, asking for stability?  Doesn't he realise that's what Julia is providing? She must be, mustn't she?  That's what she promised afterall.  Seems Wilkie can't recognise 'stabilidy' when he sees it?


----------



## dutchie

Once Gillard has purged the rest of the Rudd backers - Albanese, Bob Carr and Mark Butler she will have free air to govern for what is important:

1. Julia Gillard
2. Julia Gillard
3. Julia Gillard
4. The Union factions.
5. The Union plebs that support the Union factions.
6. Julia Gillard


----------



## IFocus

sails said:


> Of course, any excuse to denigrate Abbott...lol




True I will never miss a chance to put the boot in but I did think it a opportunity missed, given Abbott's very conservative thinking around social issues everyone would have been waiting to see how he did handle it and I think he failed.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Good summary of recent events by Michelle Grattan.
> http://www.businessspectator.com.au...il&utm_content=242469&utm_campaign=pm&modapt=



Not a bad article that. 

I'd expect the Coalition tactic at the resumption of Parliament will be about moving to suspend standing orders, to move no confidence in the government. They weren't that shy of the requisite numbers last week.


----------



## Julia

IFocus said:


> True I will never miss a chance to put the boot in but I did think it a opportunity missed, given Abbott's very conservative thinking around social issues everyone would have been waiting to see how he did handle it and I think he failed.



  IF, I'm sure we all get that had the perceived error been on the part of Ms Gillard, your sensitivities would not have been so offended.

On this, a couple of people have suggested Mr Abbott had no need to participate in this apology at all.
Can you even begin to imagine the flak directed toward him if he had not!
"Abbott clearly shows he still approves of the policies of the past in stealing the newborn babies of young, loving mothers", would be just the start.

By all means disagree with the need to apologise if that's how you feel.  But let's be aware of the political consequences if a party leader does this.  The fall out would not just be amongst people who were not going to vote for him anyway and what's the point of giving the Abbott critics further ammunition?


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> On this, a couple of people have suggested Mr Abbott had no need to participate in this apology at all.




It seems to be the protocol where the opposition leader speaks at lots of occasions relating to government functions (I would'nt be surprised if this changes when Abbotts PM) 

I thought it was fine for him to speak even if it was on the behalf of pass conservative governments or what ever I didn't see any problem.

After watching some vision clearly some present thought his choice of words were poor.


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> ..After watching some vision clearly some present thought his choice of words were poor.




After watching for the last 2+ years, Gillard's choices in spending taxpayer's funds are extremely poor.  Her ability to secure our borders extremely poor.  Her attempts at a surplus, extremely poor.  Her promise not to introduce a carbon tax, big fail...should I go on?

And I don't recall you being upset at Gillard's poor pronunciation of words such as hyperbowl, assification, Taliband, (spelling as per Gillard pronunciation).

If Abbott can fix up the major problems Gillard has created, who cares if his choice of words is not always perfect?  I wouldn't worry too much either about Gillard's poor pronunciation either if she was running the country well.

It seems you are, once again, grasping at straws, IF...


----------



## MrBurns

I don't think his choice of words was bad, it was just a couple of loudmouths down the back yelling, they were probably Gillard or Ellen Degereres fans, anyone seen the photos of her and her "wife" I'm not anti gay but there's something about her that turns my stomach.


----------



## noco

More fraud has been revealed between the Labor Party and the TWU.

Tony Abbott, when he wins the next election, must bring on a Royal Commission into the running of the unions.



http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2012/10/28/money-laundering-the-labor-party-and-union-way/


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> I don't think his choice of words was bad, it was just a couple of loudmouths down the back yelling, they were probably Gillard or Ellen Degereres fans, anyone seen the photos of her and her "wife" I'm not anti gay but there's something about her that *turns my stomach*.




Firstly, you have a weak stomach and need to toughen up.

Secondly, you are just jealous of Ellen Degeneres because you can't see what Portia De Rossi sees 
in a woman that dresses up like a  scruffy bloke when she could have a real man like yourself.


----------



## Julia

Macquack said:


> Firstly, you have a weak stomach and need to toughen up.
> 
> Secondly, you are just jealous of Ellen Degeneres because you can't see what Portia De Rossi sees
> in a woman that dresses up like a  scruffy bloke when she could have a real man like yourself.



Macquack, would it be asking too much for you to just address the issue, instead of deliberately and  gratuitously making a personal attack on another member?


----------



## Macquack

Julia said:


> Macquack, would it be asking too much for you to just address the issue, instead of deliberately and  gratuitously making a personal attack on another member?




Hang on, what has Ellen Degeneres got to do with the Gillard government? Don't shoot the messenger, shoot Burns.


----------



## Julia

Sigh.  No need to shoot anyone.  Just trying to reduce personal attacks on members and keep the thread on track.


----------



## Macquack

Julia said:


> Sigh.  No need to shoot anyone.  Just trying to reduce personal attacks on members and keep the thread on track.




Fair enough, but can you give Burns the same pep talk?


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Fair enough, but can you give Burns the same pep talk?




I hear you but you Macquack hardly post anything without a nasty twist to it 
Doesn't worry me any more.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Hang on, what has Ellen Degeneres got to do with the Gillard government? Don't shoot the messenger, shoot Burns.




What's the problem ? The content if my post displeases you? Tough


----------



## Joe Blow

Macquack said:


> Firstly, you have a weak stomach and need to toughen up.
> 
> Secondly, you are just jealous of Ellen Degeneres because you can't see what Portia De Rossi sees
> in a woman that dresses up like a  scruffy bloke when she could have a real man like yourself.






Macquack said:


> Hang on, what has Ellen Degeneres got to do with the Gillard government? Don't shoot the messenger, shoot Burns.






MrBurns said:


> I hear you but you Macquack hardly post anything without a nasty twist to it
> Doesn't worry me any more.






MrBurns said:


> What's the problem ? The content if my post displeases you? Tough




Macquack, enough with the personal attacks. Burns may have been off topic but you were the one that started slinging mud, which sidetracked the thread even further.

Back on topic please, and stick to discussing the topic at hand, rather than each other.


----------



## Miss Hale

Did anyone else see a short grab from an interview on TV with Bill Shorten where he said ( refering to Gillard), "She's our lady, our girl, our leader".  I do hope Gillard banishes him to the back bench for sexist language, he's clearly a misogynist and she calls it as she sees it afterall


----------



## dutchie

News Flash!

PM Gillard loses the lens' out of her glasses - does not realise she is playing with a misogynist rabbit.

Can't "call it where I see it" because of lens loss.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-other-mr-rabbit/story-fn59niix-1226605048547


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> News Flash!
> 
> PM Gillard loses the lens' out of her glasses - does not realise she is playing with a misogynist rabbit.
> 
> Can't "call it where I see it" because of lens loss.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-other-mr-rabbit/story-fn59niix-1226605048547





She's hanging with Kyle Sandilands now ?
Sleazy types tend to flock together........


----------



## Tink

Agree, the biggest hypocrite I have seen and an embarressment to this country.


----------



## MrBurns

Tink said:


> Agree, the biggest hypocrite I have seen and an embarressment to this country.




I hope the polls continue to tumble because she deserves it, the only ones left supporting Labor are those that support Labor regardless, I think very few would support Gillard.........she is just a shocker and getting worse.

Now her previously inept front bench is to be replaced by a bunch of rank amateurs under her thumb.


----------



## dutchie

dutchie said:


> News Flash!
> 
> PM Gillard loses the lens' out of her glasses - does not realise she is playing with a misogynist rabbit.
> 
> Can't "call it where I see it" because of lens loss.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-other-mr-rabbit/story-fn59niix-1226605048547





Emerson defends PM's Sandilands invite

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...andilands-invite/story-e6frf7kf-1226605149233

Pressed about Ms Gillard's invitation to Sandilands, Labor frontbencher Craig Emerson told the ABC the prime minister would not condone every utterance that came out of the mouth of every Australian.

Really.   "I'll call it when I see it"  (Sometimes or only when it suits me).

"You just don't write people off all over the place because of particular statements they make," he said on Monday.
Ha ha ha - the man is a joke

"Let's not just dwell in the past."
Oh you will be dwelling in the past alright ...."remember when we were in power 50 years ago....."

Ms Gillard was committed to equality for all Australians, Dr Emerson said.

All Australians are equal, but some Australians are more equal than others. (especially if you have a union ticket)

(apologies to George Orwell)


----------



## MrBurns

Craig Emerson is ...........I just cant find the words that can be written here...........


----------



## drsmith

This sums up the present problems with Labor,



> Senator Cameron argues that politicians, including those on his side of politics, have not experienced "poverty" and "deprivation."
> 
> "Here we are in 2013 with still far too many children living in poverty."
> 
> "Some in the political class try to convince themselves that Newstart is a temporary allowance."




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-to-raise-taxes/story-fn59nsif-1226605311967


----------



## Whiskers

MrBurns said:


> I hope the polls continue to tumble because she deserves it, the only ones left supporting Labor are those that support Labor regardless, I think very few would support Gillard.........she is just a shocker and getting worse.
> 
> Now her previously inept front bench is to be replaced by a bunch of rank amateurs under her thumb.




I expect you are right on both counts MrBurns. More swing voters won't like Labor without the experience and expertise from so called Rudd supporters and even less when stacked with a bunch of new faces supportive of her policies and leadership style.

Didn't she try an election with a fresh new team and her at the head once before!? How did that work out!

It's clear the voting public will not forgive, let alone and most importantly, trust her for the way she knifed Rudd and I expect that empathy will only get worse with the 'take it or leave it' attitude showing through. 

From a psychological and behavioural perspective she either can't figure out or doesn't care that she will never gain the trust of the majority of the electorate. 

From a political perspective regardless of Rudd's assurances, Rudd is doing everything right to stay in favor with more of the electorate ready for a comeback. He and his supporters know Labor has a snow flakes chance in hell of winning in September under Gillard or any other new leader. Would you appease the 'boss' to walk to the slaughter, or appease the 'Boss' to buy more time to garner more public and consequently caucus support!? 

I really find it hard to imagine the party letting Gillard take them to a slaughter a-la so many labor states... ie are the wiser heads and the collective brain of Labor really going to keep on doing what they always do expecting a different result!? Maybe, if the 'faceless men' have unfinished business to settle by September, like NSW corruptly gifting millions in mineral leases to mates. The media laws are not a good sign for them either.

Beware, the eye of the cyclone has just passed over the leadership... wait for the winds, the really powerful winds to turn and rev things up!


----------



## McLovin

drsmith said:


> This sums up the present problems with Labor,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-to-raise-taxes/story-fn59nsif-1226605311967




The politics of envy continues.

Poor Doug, he's stuck in about 1970 (when the top British tax rate was 83%!!!). That's the real problem with Labor, too many ex-unionists who represent a shrinking minority of the population.



> Senator Cameron has challenged his party’s leadership to tax super contributions of higher income earners at a higher rate, crack down on trusts, raise the mining tax, and introduce other taxes to pay for social welfare initiatives.
> 
> The Senator says we have a low tax to GDP ratio and the Government needs to increase it by 0.7 per cent.
> 
> “I can’t understand why it’s a badge of honour for a Labor government to have a lower tax to GDP ratio than the Howard Government.”
> 
> “A mere 0.7 per cent increase in the ratio of tax to GDP would raise sufficient ratio for us to realise our aspirations to be a good society”.
> 
> He said even if we did increase the taxation share we would still mean we would be the fifth lowest taxing country in the OECD.
> 
> “It is high time we withdrew from what seems like some sort of international virility contest where those who tax the least win regardless of the cost to the social fabric.”
> 
> “My party should change its position on increasing the Newstart Allowance”
> 
> He said the Federal Budget contains “waste.”
> 
> On top of raising the mining tax which he argues is not making enough money, he says a range of taxes should be hiked.
> 
> He says he backed a “financial transaction tax” which European countries are introducing.
> 
> “Many countries in Europe are implementing a modest financial transaction tax which has the potential to raise a significant amount of revenue for a government.”
> 
> He said “private discretionary trusts” are being used by high wealth individuals to minimise tax and conceal assets.
> 
> He also wants a superannuation tax crackdown to fund his big social spending initiatives including Gonski and a Newstart increase.
> 
> “I think the time has come for a reappraisal of the tax concessions which arguably act as a device to minimise the personal income tax of high wealth individuals. Many of these tax concessions are deeply entrenched and will be politically difficult to get rid of.”




Why on Earth would be taking our economic or taxation cues from what is happening in Europe? A continent that is being strangled to death by its welfare state. 

So many small businesses owners, who certainly are not "high wealth individuals" use family trusts to legally minimise their tax bill. The tax cheats, who should be caught and punished, represent such a tiny minority but he makes out that anyone with a trust is somehow gaming the system.


----------



## Whiskers

Looking at Gillards new cabinet... at Gary Gray in particular, since I know next to nothing about him I did a bit of research. He's a long time avtive labor member who worked for awhile for Westfarmers and Woodside just before replaacing Kim Beazley in Brand. 

Gray is promoted to cabinet as Resources and Energy, Tourism and Small Business Minister from previously being a Special Minister of State in the Department of Finance and Deregulation and Special Minister of State for the Public Service and Integrity. He was apparently influential in the migrant worker policy initially for Rineharts Iron ore mine's in the face of protests and over 20% youth unemployment in his electorate.

This guy looks like he's gone in the Sept election to me. But, given he's well educated and a very smart negotiator is he well connected and influential behind the scenes? Is there anything about his former ties with Westfarmers and probably more importantly the controversy over Woodside developments that should be of concern between now and Sept?


----------



## bunyip

Miss Hale said:


> Did anyone else see a short grab from an interview on TV with Bill Shorten where he said ( refering to Gillard), "She's our lady, our girl, our leader".  I do hope Gillard banishes him to the back bench for sexist language, he's clearly a misogynist and she calls it as she sees it afterall




Poor old Billy Shorten is always saying silly things. Here's a bit more of what he said.....

*Senior minister Bill Shorten, who supports Ms Gillard, welcomed Mr Rudd's declaration to rule out a future leadership challenge.

According to Shorten......"The idea that Kevin Rudd is right there supporting Julia Gillard, that's good news, and it's bad news for Tony Abbott."*

Shorten is kidding himself – Rudd ruled out another leadership challenge after his last challenge a year ago, yet he would have challenged last week if he’d had the numbers. 
As for him being ‘right there supporting Julia Gillard’.....LOL – since being deposed as leader Rudd has devoted himself to sniping away from the sidelines and undermining the government at every opportunity. The idea that he’ll now throw his support behind Gillard is a joke. 
Rudd is a sleazy compulsive liar – I’d trust a Funnelweb spider in my sleeping bag before I’d trust Rudd.

What truly perplexes me is that people supposedly want him back as Labor leader. When he was PM he was just as much on the nose as Gillard is. His government was heading for just as big an election wipeout as the Gillard government appears to be heading for. That’s the main reason his colleagues dumped him. 
Even Rudd himself said _“We’re getting a whacking in the polls, and quite frankly we deserve a whacking'”._
That was virtually an admission that he and his government were grossly incompetent. So why all this talk about wanting him back! 
About the only difference between Rudd and Gillard is that one of them has red hair and wears a bra. Apart from that they seem to be almost a carbon copy of each other.


----------



## drsmith

Some interesting poll results from Essential Media this week.

For Labor voters (all 33% of them), the man was put forward as the biggest reason (35%) as to why they still vote Labor. For Coalition voters (47%), it's the poor quality of the current Labor government (34%).

This will be very worrying for Labor as it will be the quality of government that will matter most on election day.

2PP hasn't shifted from 54%/46%, but Labor's primary has slipped 2% from 35% to 33% to the Greens. The Green vote though is much less firm than either Labor or Liberal. It's a temporary parking spot for disgruntled Labor voters.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## dutchie

At the next spill and with the consequent resignations/sackings Julia Gillard will promote Anthony Albanese to be the Minister of Industry, Innovation, Climate Change, Science, Research, Tertiary Education, Trade, Minister Assisting the Prime Minister on Asian Century Policy, Regional development, Local government, Resources, Energy, Tourism, Infrastructure and Transport and also Leader of the House.

This is because of the deep well of talent in the Labor Party.


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> This is because of the deep well of talent in the Labor Party.



Considering the Essential Media polls above, one wonders how Labor will ever govern on it's own again. 

Labor's price for Julia Gillard's time in office is that her beloved party has been sold into bondage with the Greens for a very long time.


----------



## explod

drsmith said:


> Considering the Essential Media polls above, one wonders how Labor will ever govern on it's own again.
> 
> Labor's price for Julia Gillard's time in office is that her beloved party has been sold into bondage with the Greens for a very long time.




Yes   and if the Libs get in they will have to work with the Greens also.:

Notice the Climate Change thread has gone quiet because there is disquiet.  How will Abbott deal with those who have been flooded to their waists 3 times in 12 months.


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> Considering the Essential Media polls above, one wonders how Labor will ever govern on it's own again.
> 
> Labor's price for Julia Gillard's time in office is that her beloved party has been sold into bondage with the Greens for a very long time.




I think libs need to consider this



> Main reason for voting labor
> 
> I don’t want Tony Abbott to be Prime Minister	  35%




Thats a lot of protest vote just waiting to be wooed. Shuffling out Hockey and putting Tbull in will grab more of those in the middle. 
If Greens were smart they would pull the pin on this government and grab votes from labor.


----------



## drsmith

explod said:


> Yes   and if the Libs get in they will have to work with the Greens also.:



They will be much less willing than Labor in adopting an undignified bend-over posture when it comes to the Greens.



moXJO said:


> I think libs need to consider this
> 
> Thats a lot of protest vote just waiting to be wooed. Shuffling out Hockey and putting Tbull in will grab more of those in the middle. .




That would help, but loyalties dictate it's not going to happen at least prior to the election. 

Tony Abbott is at least trying to look more prime-ministerial. He obviously needs to broaden his appeal and the Libs as a whole need to be able to articulate a vision and how they plan to achieve it. An unfortunate reality of the politics of today is that it's not yet the appropriate time for the detail.



moXJO said:


> If Greens were smart they would pull the pin on this government and grab votes from labor.



I thought they had, but the reality is that are now just doing behind the bike shed what they were previously doing in the bedroom.

I think the Greens are quiet happy eroding Labor's voter base, parasitic fashion.


----------



## bellenuit

What's with Albanese? Could he be dumped because of this?

*Anthony Albanese and his dangerously poor judgement*

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/03/anthony-albanese-and-his-dangerously-poor-judgement-.html

This part is particularly interesting in light of the Rudd-Gillard issue.....

_Thursday, 21 March, 2013

On Thursday, 21 March, 2013 I watched with the rest of the nation as Simon Crean put his name forward as Deputy Prime Minister and as he asked Mr Rudd to challenge the PM.

Friday, 22 March, 2013

On Friday evening, 22 March, 2013 I received a message from a senior Federal Parliamentary Labor Party figure that said words to the effect,

“FYI -  [NAME REDACTED – a widely respected Federal Labor Parliamentary figure] interviewed Albanese about the Thai establishment – *And Albo then quickly relinquished his Deputy PM aspirations*”._


----------



## dutchie

bellenuit said:


> What's with Albanese? Could he be dumped because of this?
> 
> *Anthony Albanese and his dangerously poor judgement*
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/03/anthony-albanese-and-his-dangerously-poor-judgement-.html
> 
> This part is particularly interesting in light of the Rudd-Gillard issue.....
> 
> _Thursday, 21 March, 2013
> 
> On Thursday, 21 March, 2013 I watched with the rest of the nation as Simon Crean put his name forward as Deputy Prime Minister and as he asked Mr Rudd to challenge the PM.
> 
> Friday, 22 March, 2013
> 
> On Friday evening, 22 March, 2013 I received a message from a senior Federal Parliamentary Labor Party figure that said words to the effect,
> 
> “FYI -  [NAME REDACTED – a widely respected Federal Labor Parliamentary figure] interviewed Albanese about the Thai establishment – *And Albo then quickly relinquished his Deputy PM aspirations*”._





Sleazy Albanesey has to go. 
Oh Hang on he's Labor - promote him.


----------



## bellenuit

These appear to be fresh Newspoll figures on Twitter (cannot vouch for their accuracy)

 Preferred PM: Gillard 35 (-7) Abbott 43 (+5)


----------



## bellenuit

From The Australian


Labor vote slumps after horror fortnight

JULIA Gillard's personal standing has crashed to a 19-month low and Tony Abbott is clearly back in front as the nation's preferred prime minister after Labor's "appalling" two weeks of political and policy failure.

According to the latest Newspoll survey, Labor's primary vote has slumped five points to a disastrous 30 per cent after a fortnight that ended with the aborted leadership spill and mass cabinet resignations, with one in two voters now siding with the Coalition.

The collapse in the Labor vote has completely wiped out the party's recovery in the second half of last year and has entrenched the prospect of a landslide vote against the government in the election scheduled for September 14.

After taking into account preference flows, federal Labor's support is eight percentage points below its level at the 2010 election, at 42 per cent - a swing that if replicated in September would remove about 30 Labor MPs, including at least five ministers.

The Prime Minister said yesterday she was appalled at Labor's "self-indulgence" during last week's leadership bid, which was brought on after the party's proposed media laws collapsed. She declared she wanted to show "self-belief" and that Labor's "eyes" would be on the "Australian people". But the Newspoll survey, taken exclusively for The Australian on the weekend, shows voter satisfaction with Ms Gillard at the lowest since September 2011.

For the second time in three Newspoll surveys since February, Mr Abbott has a clear lead over Ms Gillard as preferred prime minister 43 per cent to 35 per cent.

The government's primary vote of 30 per cent is the lowest since July last year, while the Coalition's primary vote of 50 per cent is the highest since April last year. Greens' support was virtually unchanged on 10 per cent.

Based on preference flows at the 2010 election, the Coalition's two-party-preferred support rose six points to a 12-month high of 58 per cent as Labor's fell to 42 per cent.

Full details of the Newspoll will be published in The Australian and online on Tuesday.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...horror-fortnight/story-fn59niix-1226605852558


----------



## sails

While it's great news for the coalition, I don't know whether to believe Newspoll anymore.  It has been thrashing around wildly for the last few months and seems incredible that voters are having such wild swings.  Apart from the Whitlam days, I have never know such consistent voter disenchantment.

The other pollsters have been more steady in their results - perhaps the average of them all is a better guide.


----------



## bellenuit

bellenuit said:


> “FYI -  [NAME REDACTED – a widely respected Federal Labor Parliamentary figure] interviewed Albanese about the Thai establishment – *And Albo then quickly relinquished his Deputy PM aspirations*”.




Interesting comment from the MS Blog on this story. I'm not sure on the dates though.

_The issue here results from the following;
1.Albanese (according to him) did not have to resign because while he may have backed Rudd he was not an instigator of the putsch.
2.He was never offered the Deputy Prime Ministership. That was always the property of Crean.
3.Yet the day before the spill he is fronted by a senior figure with the information in the story and quickly relinquishes his aspirations to be Deputy Prime Minister. 
If your source is correct Albanese clearly had expectations about the rewards to be offered by Rudd that place him at the centre of the plot and are completely at odds with his own explanations.
Gillard can not have demanded Creans resignation and ignored the part played by Albanese and retain any faÃ§ade of credibility with her remaining supporters.
Again, if your source is correct it puts the lie to his protestations that he received no sexual services. If that is so why quickly abandon his ambitions._


----------



## bellenuit

Could the Albanese issue be the reason the spill all went wrong?


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> Could the Albanese issue be the reason the spill all went wrong?



MS has posted a lot of info on this on his blog this evening, and all past beer-o-clock. I just hope someone in Labor hasn't led him up the garden path.

It also puts that _Little Lion Man_ video segment that he posted on Saturday into context.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/03/what-happened.html

As for Newspoll, I'd suggest its about what Kevin Rudd expected.


----------



## bellenuit

drsmith said:


> MS has posted a lot of info on this blog this evening, and all past beer-o-clock. I just hope someone in Labor hasn't led him up the garden path.
> 
> It also puts that _Little Lion Man_ video segment that he posted on Saturday into context.




Yes it sure does. If MS hasn't been duped, Albanese is toast.


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> Yes it sure does. If MS hasn't been duped, Albanese is toast.




From MS's site,



> [NAME REDACTED - a widely respected Federal Labor Parliamentary figure] interviewed Anthony Albanese on Wednesday, 20 March and put a number of matters associated with the Thai massage establishment to Mr Albanese.   Mr Albanese confirmed that he was present at the Thai massage business on Friday, 15 March.   He said that he was there for the purpose of receiving a therapeutic massage and not for the purpose of receiving sexual services.   Mr Albanese said he did not receive any sexual services..




This would be damaging to both Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd as they both would have had him in senior rolls and was known by the so-called widely respected Federal Labor Parliamentary figure before Simon Crean's public performances on Thursday.

Who's this so-called widely respected Federal Labor Parliamentary figure working for, the Coalition ??

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/03/anthony-albanese-and-his-dangerously-poor-judgement-.html

If MS hasn't been duped, Labor's internal conflicts have been even more bitter than we have seen publically.


----------



## Logique

bellenuit said:


> From The Australian
> Labor vote slumps after horror fortnight.........http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...horror-fortnight/story-fn59niix-1226605852558



Here is a link to a summary page of the latest Newspoll (in the Australian): http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/03/26/1226605/954690-aus-na-file-federal-newspoll.pdf

That 2PP preferred of 42 per cent to 58 per cent is close to identical to the recent WA state election outcome. Labor support is basically down to the "rusted-ons" only, even the Greens have bailed. 

Did everyone see the pictures of the new Cabinet. Very evident that a lot of experience and talent has gone from the front bench - this is not reassuring to voters.


----------



## Logique

With friends this toxic, who needs enemies. Psst Marilyn, it's not the 1970's, you're not helping.

The Gillard backlash says more about her detractors
March 26, 2013
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-detractors-20130325-2gq0f.html#ixzz2OaMZc4Bj


----------



## drsmith

Labor, realising the game is up may well go for a final round of class warfare before it is kicked from office.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...e-out-super-raid/story-e6frea7l-1226606148884


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> With friends this toxic, who needs enemies. Psst Marilyn, it's not the 1970's, you're not helping.




Ms Gillard's core of supporters is becoming confined to such as ms Lake, i.e. left wing academics.
Marilyn Lake is professor in history at the University of Melbourne.


----------



## Logique

Logique said:


> With friends this toxic, who needs enemies. Psst Marilyn, it's not the 1970's, you're not helping.
> The Gillard backlash says more about her detractors
> March 26, 2013
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-detractors-20130325-2gq0f.html#ixzz2OaMZc4Bj



The good Professor was held to account by Bolt today, it was _horribile dictu_ (for her). Seems she's doing rather nicely on the taxpayers dollar. 



> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...t_academic_defends_gillards_from_her_critics/
> ..Professor Marilyn Lake, the feminist who claims women are ‘worked to death’ as ‘slaves to the nation’ *now gets $480,000 (from the Australian Research Council) to attack the ‘history of white Australia *through an investigation of the idea of the ‘white man’s country’ as a defensive response to a changing world order’..


----------



## Julia

Good heavens!  $480K for that stuff.  Amazing.


----------



## MrBurns

.....


----------



## waza1960

Love the photo of Craig Thompson classic


----------



## bunyip

More than 17 thousand illegals arrived by boat last year. The number for the first three months of 2013 is more than double the number for the first three months of last year.

Well done Labor – you should hang your heads in shame!!


----------



## bigdog

Thoroughly recommend reading The Pickering Post todays article!

http://pickeringpost.com/article/prepare-for-some-dizzying-spin-from-the-consummate-spinster/1073
*PREPARE FOR SOME DIZZYING SPIN FROM THE CONSUMMATE SPINSTER*

first paragraph
Without a responsible Senate to reject supply this Government will load Abbott up with debt requiring austerity measures that will give him voter backlash. “If I can’t win, at least I can make life hell for you”, seems to be Gillard’s thinking. Except it’s not hell for Abbott, it’s hell for us.

recommend reading the rest of article



The cartoons are great!
http://pickeringpost.com/archive/cartoons


----------



## Aussiejeff

Awesome...... thank you JuLiar...



> *Julia Gillard to leave Australians in $165 billion dollars worth of debt this term alone*
> 
> GILLARD Government debt levels are forecast to blow out by 80 per cent to $165 billion in this term alone - equal to more than $14,000 for every working Australian.



Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...ne/story-fncynjr2-1226607170108#ixzz2Oh0U8Pob


----------



## drsmith

Aussiejeff said:


> Awesome...... thank you JuLiar...
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...ne/story-fncynjr2-1226607170108#ixzz2Oh0U8Pob



You'll find Greg Sheridan views in the linked audio both well worth a listen, and somewhat depressing.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...editor-greg-sheridan-on-2gb-this-morning.html


----------



## MrBurns

Neil Mitchell on 3AW Melbourne ripped Bill Shorten apart this morning..........


----------



## dutchie

bigdog said:


> Thoroughly recommend reading The Pickering Post todays article!
> 
> http://pickeringpost.com/article/prepare-for-some-dizzying-spin-from-the-consummate-spinster/1073
> *PREPARE FOR SOME DIZZYING SPIN FROM THE CONSUMMATE SPINSTER*
> 
> first paragraph
> Without a responsible Senate to reject supply this Government will load Abbott up with debt requiring austerity measures that will give him voter backlash. “If I can’t win, at least I can make life hell for you”, seems to be Gillard’s thinking. Except it’s not hell for Abbott, it’s hell for us.
> 
> recommend reading the rest of article
> 
> 
> 
> The cartoons are great!
> http://pickeringpost.com/archive/cartoons


----------



## drsmith

Labor's final raid on the treasury before being kicked from office has begun, on behalf of the unions.



> FINANCE Minister Penny Wong says the government is boosting childcare and aged-care salaries through the enterprise bargaining system because it wants the money to get to workers, not to prop up the unions.
> 
> Unions are capitalising on the government's promised $1.5 billion wages boost with a new membership drive targeting more than 300,000 workers.
> 
> The United Voice union is leading the campaign by telling workers to expect pay rises of up to $10,571 a year under the government schemes as long as they follow a three-step plan that starts with joining the union.
> 
> Senator Wong said unions were entitled to advocate for their members, but workers didn't have to be union members to be covered by enterprise agreements.






> The campaigns build on two government announcements in the past month, the first to spend $1.2 billion on salary supplements in aged care and the second to spend $300 million on salaries in childcare.
> 
> *Both schemes offer money only to employers who sign enterprise bargaining agreements with staff - a workplace relations outcome that gives unions a stronger chance of recruiting workers and negotiating with managers.*




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nions-penny-wong/story-fn59noo3-1226607460959

My bolds.


----------



## dutchie

Doug Cameron has to go.

Doug Cameron was Ian Macdonald's unionist saviour 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...unionist-saviour/story-fndo317g-1226607170174


----------



## MrBurns

The general media are now fully awake to this lousy Govt and are taking them on, Leigh Sales, Neil Mitchel and more to follow, not just questioning but demanding answers instead of spin and BS.........


----------



## bigdog

*MCTERNAN IS GILLARD’S MAN... in more ways than one

The bitter back bench leaks have started already and the rumour is, from more than one quarter, that our lovely Julia has a new partner.

Apparently there was a huge blue at The Lodge over Tim Mathieson’s recent Richmond exploits and a small matter of a raft of traffic fines in a Commonwealth car. 

Let’s face it, Tim was an embarrassment and the wily McTernan has apparently stepped in to take up the slack.
*

Continue reading the full article on the Pickering Post

http://pickeringpost.com/article/mcternan-is-gillards-man...-in-more-ways-than-one/1077

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Tim Mathieson pressured Richmond to snub Tony Abbott  *

by: CHRIS KENNY AND KATE LEGGE 
 From: The Australian  
 March 09, 2013 12:00AM 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...snub-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226593598167

AN email obtained exclusively by The Weekend Australian reveals Julia Gillard's partner, Tim Mathieson, sought to involve her office in pressuring a major sporting club to freeze out Tony Abbott.  

After attending an AFL clash at the MCG as a guest of the Richmond Football Club, Mr Mathieson emailed its chief executive, Brendon Gale, copying in the Prime Minister's office, to complain about the Opposition Leader's access to the team's inner sanctum and his prominent seating at a pre-game function.

Mr Mathieson demanded that Mr Gale raise the matter with the Prime Minister's chief of staff, Ben Hubbard.

His fiery outburst occurred on a Sunday evening after the Dreamtime AFL match between Essendon and Richmond on May 19 last year. The Dreamtime game is one of the highlights of the AFL calendar for its social and cultural significance in promoting reconciliation.

"Mate u need to speak with Ben Hubbard on why abboott was taken down to the rooms ... " Mr Mathieson fumed. " ... it's just not on Who authorised it < it was a shocker it was a Don's function and he should not have gone down there

That same weekend Ms Gillard was travelling to Chicago for top-level security talks with Barack Obama and other NATO leaders to plan the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

Ms Gillard's office declined to respond to questions about Mr Mathieson's complaint.

Mr Mathieson is a fanatical supporter of the Richmond "Tigers" while the PM barracks for the Western Bulldogs. They are often seen at games together in their respective club colours.

Richmond has accommodated Mr Mathieson's requests for tickets, hospitality and memorabilia since his move into The Lodge.

At the Dreamtime game in Melbourne, the first bloke invited ABC Insiders host Barrie Cassidy to join him on the Richmond table. Both men visited the Richmond room before the contest, where they crossed paths with Mr Abbott, who was a guest of Essendon's chairman David Evans.

Essendon was hosting the pre-game function for the Dreamtime game and in charge of protocol. The Opposition Leader was accompanied to the event by two of his three daughters and his chief of staff, Peta Credlin.

The rooms for rival teams at the MCG are not far apart and after visiting Essendon players, Mr Abbott was escorted across to the Richmond bunker.

Clubs embrace politicians from all sides of politics and dignitaries who are invited to pre-game functions usually get taken to visit players in the room before the match.

The Weekend Australian understands that Mr Gale responded politely to Mr Mathieson's email protest, explaining that Richmond was staunchly bipartisan and happy to accord Mr Abbott the very same privileges that the Prime Minister's partner enjoyed on a regular basis. He signed off by confirming Mr Mathieson's attendance at an upcoming pre-game cocktail, party in Sydney.

Mr Gale would not comment on the email exchange. "He will not discuss private communications," his spokesman said.

Government sources say Mr Mathieson has a habit of firing off emails and texts to Ms Gillard's personal staff when he senses a perceived injustice. His email to Mr Gale was copied to a senior public servant working in Ms Gillard's office at the time.


----------



## dutchie

http://pickeringpost.com/article/1075


----------



## Logique

MrBurns said:


> The general media are now fully awake to this lousy Govt and are taking them on, Leigh Sales, Neil Mitchel and more to follow, not just questioning but demanding answers instead of spin and BS.........



It is a bitter irony Burnsie. This forum, and particularly this thread, has onto them for years. 

This government is off the rails, be very afraid. The Unions are off the leash too, making hay. Grand kids out there, be even more afraid, you'll be the ones paying off the national debt.


----------



## dutchie

From Andrew Bolt

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ttacks_gillard_on_exactly_the_grounds_i_have/

"To put it less diplomatically, Gillard, is disloyal, untrustworthy, incompetent, reckless, divisive, dictatorial, wasteful and lacking in vision:"

And those are her good points!


----------



## drsmith

Another day, another terrible poll for Labor.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/labor_faces_annihilation_in_marginal_MRqll2ldnEA2yvStbw4IMM

Sportsbet has given up running odds on who will win the next election, but has the Coalition at $1.20 to win 91 seats or more

Betting is also available on Julia Gillard's future post election. PM doesn't rate a mention.



> What is next for Julia
> 
> Write her biography   1.60
> Marry Tim Mathieson   2.50
> Start her own political party   9.00
> Host her own political affairs programme   10.00
> Join the board of Slater & Gordon   13.00
> Emigrate to another country   21.00
> Suit jacket model for Versace   34.00
> Become a contestant on Dancing with the Stars   41.00
> Official Kevin Rudd spokeswoman   81.00
> Launch a singing career   151.00
> Become a hairdresser   501.00
> 
> Must happen in 2013 after the election and be confirmed publically by Julia Gillard.




http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...Australian-Federal-Election-2013/14-3668.html


----------



## Aussiejeff

drsmith said:


> *Another day, another terrible poll for Labor.*
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/labor_faces_annihilation_in_marginal_MRqll2ldnEA2yvStbw4IMM
> 
> Sportsbet has given up running odds on who will win the next election, but has the Coalition at $1.20 to win 91 seats or more
> 
> Betting is also available on Julia Gillard's future post election. PM doesn't rate a mention.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...Australian-Federal-Election-2013/14-3668.html




I love how the poll is predicting Kev baby might be the _only_ Labor pollie to be left standing in QLD..._ if_ he manages to hold his seat which is under threat on current voter intent. 

Awww. How could Oz cope with losing Herr Schwann - The World's Greatest Treasurer?


----------



## bigdog

*Juliar's partners / boyfriends count*

*Count is currently five!

Can you add to the list?*

*Extract from Pickering Post issued six months ago!*
http://pickeringpost.com/article/why-single-women-prefer-married-men/597

Then there is the kinky pleasure of being in the presence of the married man's wife. The smug "if-only-you-knew" factor is a form of covert power over another oblivious female.

So, what common thread in her relationships indicates Julia Gillard's motivation? We are not supposed to ask that sort of thing you say! Why the hell not? If we had a single male Prime Minister who consistently had covert affairs with married women it would surely justify media interest. If you don't think it's a fair question then you don't believe in sexual equality... particularly concerning the sexuality of those with political power over us.

Gillard is so obviously a very sexual woman. Her patent, overt flirting with Barack Obama is testimony to that. She displays that come-to-bed look with aplomb and her list of affairs with married men with children is long and worthy of note:

Bruce Wilson, apparently happily married with children. He was a fraudulent crook and a union strongman with loads of cash at the ready. The exciting world of union corruption was an attraction for Gillard. (A relationship of over 4 years.)

Michael O'Connor, ruggedly good-looking and an unabashed communist was at the time a militant powerbroker of the CFMEU. He is now CFMEU Boss. Apparently happily married with children. Union power and mob-style thuggery was again an attraction for Gillard. (A relationship of over 6 years but overlapped other relationships.)

Peter Gordon, of Slater & Gordon, Married with children and Senior Partner. Gillard's rather brief stint with Gordon was a result of his Presidency of the Western Bulldogs AFL Club. Gordon and Gillard regularly spent time together at the Club and Gillard has supported the Bulldogs ever since, both emotionally and with taxpayer funds as Prime Minister.

Craig Emerson, current Trade Minister. Happily married with 3 children. His rise to power through ANU academia and his assertive manner was also an attraction for Gillard. Emerson and his wife divorced after this relationship became public. Emerson's main claim to fame was that he drank Gillard's contact lenses she inadvertently left in a glass of water in the bathroom.

Tim Mathieson breaks the mould of Gillard's affairs. He is divorced with children and has another daughter out of wedlock. Gillard began this relationship just prior to Rudd's election. Mathieson, a drink-driving yobbo, has left a long trail of debt wherever he goes.

Gillard's Prime Ministerial ambitions were being hatched with the help of Bill Shorten and Bill Ludwig, both powerbrokers in the AWU, long before Rudd's election.

Mathieson's role as a partner for Gillard as Prime Minster is apt. His dimwittedness ensures he could never be in competition with, or a threat to, Gillard's lofty ambitions. And for God's sake, we could never have a single female Prime Minister living alone in The Lodge, could we?

None of her previous partners could have successfully moved into The Lodge with her.

So, leaving the hapless Mathieson out of the thread, there is a commonality in Gillard's affairs:
 All men were older.
 All were married.
 All had children.
 All wielded power.
 All had dodgy union connections and lots of available cash (albeit mostly belonging to other people) and,
 All were beguiled by Gillard's sexuality.

Yet strangely, all these affairs ended amicably. Even now, Gillard and her ex-men hold not a shred of bitterness for each other. Craig Emerson and even Bruce Wilson and Peter Gordon rush to defend her. What does this mean? It simply means they were not affairs of the heart. True emotional love mostly ends in prolonged hurt and acrimony. These affairs did not.

Gillard has been attracted to the intoxicating excitement of lustful power, union corruption, rivers of illicit money and an ego driven, covert competition with married men's wives. She has never felt the need to hide her sexual targeting of any man. Wilson's wife simply learnt to live with his infidelity. Emerson's wife couldn't. O'Connor's wife was furious but got over it.

And why were these men attracted to Gillard? Well, I'm a little uncomfortable saying this, but she definitely exudes a bewitching sensuality.

A sensuality even Barack Obama finds difficult to ignore.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Extract below from Pickering Post - please read the full article*

http://pickeringpost.com/article/the-labor-party-i-love-by-julia-gillard/1078

*Still lying!!*

Make no mistake, unless Julia Gillard experienced an epiphanous rebirth on the eve of her election to Parliament, the blood of the radical Communist Left still runs deep in her veins.

Of course she denies any meaningful connection to the Socialist Forum, “I just did clerical work, posting letters and stuff, you know”, she claimed.

When asked on Q&A if the Socialist Forum was a Communist organisation, her terse reply was, “Of course not!” 

In fact the Socialist Forum was an ultra radical breakaway group of the Communist Party of Australia.

But Julia forgot there are minutes of Socialist Forum meetings that show she was a driving force behind the subversive organisation.

The infamous Taft brothers, Jenny Macklin and Julia’s bed partner, Michael O’Conner (now of the CFMEU) along with other devotees, avowed the following resolution:

"... the Socialist Forum being a defacto continuum of a section of the Communist Party of Australia be interpreted as a political party competing with the ALP... it is not possible for any member of the ALP to simultaneously belong to the Socialist Forum.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://pickeringpost.com/archive/cartoons

*Check Pickering's Cartoons with link above*


----------



## MrBurns

bigdog said:


> *Juliar's partners / boyfriends count*
> 
> *Count is currently five!
> 
> Can you add to the list?*
> 
> .”




Satan ?


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Satan ?



In her mind she has a choice of two. 

One across the chamber and the other on her own backbench.


----------



## gordon2007

Can't stand gillard nor labor, but even I find this distasteful. I personally think no other PM would  be subject to such standards. 

Whilst she and her party deserve everything they will get handed to them in the polls, and it's not too often I find anything via pollies over the line, this one does cross the personal line.



bigdog said:


> *Juliar's partners / boyfriends count*
> 
> *Count is currently five!
> 
> Can you add to the list?*


----------



## waza1960

> Can't stand gillard nor labor, but even I find this distasteful. I personally think no other PM would be subject to such standards.
> 
> Whilst she and her party deserve everything they will get handed to them in the polls, and it's not too often I find anything via pollies over the line, this one does cross the personal line.




   +1 I agree


----------



## Macquack

gordon2007 said:


> Can't stand gillard nor labor, but even I find this distasteful. I personally think no other PM would  be subject to such standards.
> 
> Whilst she and her party deserve everything they will get handed to them in the polls, and it's not too often I find anything via pollies over the line, this one does cross the personal line.




Totally agree.

There is enough ammunition to hammer the Gillard government without stooping to this level. 

BigDogs mate Larry Pickering is just a "big cat".


----------



## MrBurns

We don't want to be misogynist now, if we can talk about Thompsons exploits no reason why Gillard shouldn't get the same treatment.
Women are equal just ask Gillard.


----------



## wayneL

gordon2007 said:


> Can't stand gillard nor labor, but even I find this distasteful. I personally think no other PM would  be subject to such standards.




Ya reckon?

Off the top of my head I can recall rumours that Comrade Keating had jumped the fence.

And surely unfair accusations of misogyny fall into the same gutter level... ad that was done IN parliament ffs.


----------



## Julia

bigdog said:


> *Juliar's partners / boyfriends count*
> 
> *Count is currently five!
> 
> Can you add to the list?*



Bigdog, what exactly is your purpose in this irrelevant account?
Much as I dislike what Ms Gillard is doing to the country, and much as I abhor her hypocrisy and self interest, her personal life is her own and none of your or my business.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Bigdog, what exactly is your purpose in this irrelevant account?
> Much as I dislike what Ms Gillard is doing to the country, and much as I abhor her hypocrisy and self interest, her personal life is her own and none of your or my business.




Julia,

 what about the misogynist rant what about all the delving into all politicians personal  lives, this is no different,

The only difference is Gillard is a woman, if this was a bloke no one would care............right ?

When you're a politician your personal life is public property, like it or not.


----------



## chops_a_must

MrBurns said:


> Julia,
> 
> what about the misogynist rant what about all the delving into all politicians personal  lives, this is no different,
> 
> The only difference is Gillard is a woman, if this was a bloke no one would care............right ?
> 
> When you're a politician your personal life is public property, like it or not.




Three words.

Bill Clint On.


----------



## chops_a_must

But unfortunately, society's double standards attach different connotations to sexual morality.

It stinks to be honest.


----------



## MrBurns

chops_a_must said:


> But unfortunately, society's double standards attach different connotations to sexual morality.
> 
> It stinks to be honest.




That will never change, racism will never be eradicated, bullying against the fat kid will never go away......that's life, you will never change natural human behaviour in some areas.


----------



## chops_a_must

MrBurns said:


> That will never change, racism will never be eradicated, bullying against the fat kid will never go away......that's life, you will never change natural human behaviour in some areas.




Then why play a role in perpetuating it?


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Julia,
> 
> what about the misogynist rant what about all the delving into all politicians personal  lives, this is no different,
> 
> The only difference is Gillard is a woman, if this was a bloke no one would care............right ?
> 
> When you're a politician your personal life is public property, like it or not.




+ 1 Burnsie. It certainly is not becoming of a sitting Prime Minister or a senior Minister of Governemnt to be jumping in and out of bed with different married men. She has not set a very good example to young people


----------



## MrBurns

chops_a_must said:


> Then why play a role in perpetuating it?




What was said about Gillard is no different to what would be said about a male leader so what's the issue ?


----------



## sptrawler

With the pro Labor newspapers, starting to print negative sentiment towards this government, they had better get the May budget right.
If they stuff it up as usual, it will be difficult to stop the election being brought forward.IMO


----------



## chops_a_must

MrBurns said:


> What was said about Gillard is no different to what would be said about a male leader so what's the issue ?




Yes it would. That's the point.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

To be fair to Gillard.

1. The NIDS is long overdue.
2. Increasing super to 12% of wages is long overdue.

For the life of me I cannot think of anything else the poor woman has achieved.

On the downside she has.

1. Emasculated the talent in her Cabinet.
2. Turned our youth away from politics.
3. Entrenched the power of misogynist party officials and union leaders in their entitlement.
4. Promoted lacklustre people beyond their capability.
5. Ensured that the ALP will never ever have a worker as a MHR or in the Senate.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> + 1 Burnsie. It certainly is not becoming of a sitting Prime Minister or a senior Minister of Governemnt to be jumping in and out of bed with different married men. She has not set a very good example to young people




When you're PM your behaviour goes to credibility and moral standards, ie: if you'll cheat on a partner or jump from bed to bed don't expect that person to be moral when it comes to the running of Govt in Australia.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Julia,
> 
> what about the misogynist rant what about all the delving into all politicians personal  lives, this is no different,



That was inappropriate and ill judged.
So is any comment about Ms Gillard's personal preferences.
So I'm being entirely consistent in believing neither behaviour has any valid place in political commentary.

If Gillard et al were doing a good job of running the country, no one would care about their personal relationships.  I'm less than impressed by the hairdresser, but it's none of my business.  I only care about the mess she is making of Australia.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Julia said:


> That was inappropriate and ill judged.
> So is any comment about Ms Gillard's personal preferences.
> So I'm being entirely consistent in believing neither behaviour has any valid place in political commentary.
> 
> If Gillard et al were doing a good job of running the country, no one would care about their personal relationships.  I'm less than impressed by the hairdresser, but it's none of my business.  I only care about the mess she is making of Australia.




+1 Julia.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> That was inappropriate and ill judged.
> So is any comment about Ms Gillard's personal preferences.
> So I'm being entirely consistent in believing neither behaviour has any valid place in political commentary.
> 
> If Gillard et al were doing a good job of running the country, no one would care about their personal relationships.  I'm less than impressed by the hairdresser, but it's none of my business.  I only care about the mess she is making of Australia.




I agree, but everyone in the public eye has the camera on them, it doesn't hurt if they do their job, if they don't the media are vicious.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> That was inappropriate and ill judged.
> So is any comment about Ms Gillard's personal preferences.
> So I'm being entirely consistent in believing neither behaviour has any valid place in political commentary.
> 
> If Gillard et al were doing a good job of running the country, no one would care about their personal relationships.  I'm less than impressed by the hairdresser, but it's none of my business.  I only care about the mess she is making of Australia.




Agree completely, with you Julia. 
Let's get back on to Gillard's rank policy and off her rank choice of friends.
I'm sure the former will have a lot more impact on our lives.


----------



## Logique

Would have been colourful narrative if they'd done an expose of Hawkey's exploits.  

All the same, if this information is out there, voters are entitled to know it. This is a PM we are talking about, and on very good coin at taxpayers expense.

At the end of Bigdog's the Pickering Post quote, Pickering claims that Gillard misrepresented her involvement in the Socialist Forum, effectively a communist organization. This is information that voters are entitled to know. 

Craig Thompson wasn't cut much slack in the media on his alleged indiscretions, why should Gillard escape press reporting.


----------



## waza1960

> All the same, if this information is out there, voters are entitled to know it. This is a PM we are talking about, and on very good coin at taxpayers expense.
> 
> At the end of Bigdog's the Pickering Post quote, Pickering claims that Gillard misrepresented her involvement in the Socialist Forum, effectively a communist organization. This is information that voters are entitled to know.
> 
> Craig Thompson wasn't cut much slack in the media on his alleged indiscretions, why should Gillard escape press reporting.




  While I agree with your sentiment. A lot of the "information" I see in Pickerings' posts are opinions and suppositions.
    press reporting= Pickering post ............ a bit of a stretch there


----------



## MrBurns

waza1960 said:


> While I agree with your sentiment. A lot of the "information" I see in Pickerings' posts are opinions and suppositions.
> press reporting= Pickering post ............ a bit of a stretch there




I don't see anyone taking him to court..........


----------



## IFocus

MrBurns said:


> I don't see anyone taking him to court..........





He's a bankrupt has no money along with no morals, shame I used to enjoy his drawing many years ago but now he is just a grub.


----------



## MrBurns

IFocus said:


> He's a bankrupt has no money along with no morals, shame I used to enjoy his drawing many years ago but now he is just a grub.




They could get a restraining order surely.


----------



## drsmith

Labor well and truly on the nose again in Queensland as the foot soldiers abandon ship,



> The Australian on Thursday revealed that rank-and-file members were abandoning Queensland in droves, fuelling fears of an electoral wipeout of the Gillard government in the key battleground and damaging plans for a heavily manned grassroots campaign in the state.
> 
> More than 30 union officials have already been seconded to help run Labor's campaign across Australia, with many being sent to Queensland as one-third of the state ALP membership has abandoned the party in the past year.
> 
> In a leaked internal ALP memo, Queensland state secretary Anthony Chisholm this week pleaded to the "true believers" to lean on 2000 members who had yet to renew their memberships.
> 
> Insiders said members who had not paid up accounted for more than one-third of the party base and were abandoning the ALP over the leadership tussle between Julia Gillard and Mr Rudd, and in the face of polling indicating a federal Labor defeat.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...in-blow-to-labor/story-e6frgczx-1226609241516


----------



## drsmith

Paul Kelly as always makes some interesting points on Labor's problems,



> Labor's tragedy is that a party created in the 1890s to represent the industrial wing has achieved its historical purpose with rising community prosperity, affluence once unimagined, and the shrinking of trade coverage in the private sector to about 14 per cent of employees.
> 
> Given this reality, Labor must change. It cannot continue to see itself as a party defined by its institutional ties with the trade unions and a 50 per cent union representation rule. Such a narrow definition dooms Labor's future. Gillard's recent embrace of this identity was an extraordinary blunder that mirrors the structural conflict implicit in Gillard-Rudd tensions. It is now improbable that Rudd does not want radical reform of Labor's ties with the union movement.
> 
> The sharpest point in Ferguson's resignation speech was his lament that Gillard is not governing for all Australians. Can there be a more lethal assessment? When the union leaders from the Hawke-Keating generation shout this criticism from the rooftops about the Gillard government - witness Ferguson, Crean and Kelty - then crisis is not an exaggerated notion.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...o-govern-for-all/story-e6frg74x-1226609179026


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Paul Kelly as always makes some interesting points on Labor's problems,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...o-govern-for-all/story-e6frg74x-1226609179026




Gillard and the unions won this battle, let's see what happens after the election. 
There is every chance that Gillard and the goons will be forced out of Labor.IMO
If the moderates in Labor don't take control of the party the party will be finished.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Gillard and the unions won this battle, let's see what happens after the election.
> There is every chance that Gillard and the goons will be forced out of Labor.IMO
> If the moderates in Labor don't take control of the party the party will be finished.



I'd like to see Gillard, Swan and Conroy in particular lose their seats.
Chris Bowen and Martin Ferguson, maybe Simon Crean, re-elected and head up the new Labor Party.
Would also like to see K. Rudd despatched for all time so that we never, ever again have to watch him prancing around the country seeking attention and adoration, or listen to his pompous tones.


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> I'd like to see Gillard, Swan and Conroy in particular lose their seats.
> Chris Bowen and Martin Ferguson, maybe Simon Crean, re-elected and head up the new Labor Party.
> Would also like to see K. Rudd despatched for all time so that we never, ever again have to watch him prancing around the country seeking attention and adoration, or listen to his pompous tones.




I'd be happy with that. Although Martin Ferguson did seem to be one the more competent ministers. Conroy is the ALP's first pick senator for Victoria, I think, so no chance he'll be out of a job.

It's a shame that there is some decent talent in the ALP but it's been swamped by these middle management, focus group types.


----------



## sptrawler

This article pretty well sums it up, Gillard hard @rse bit@h or the highway.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/simply-put-gillard-is-indestructible-20130330-2gzsb.html

Well that's exactly the way it will play out IMO.

Labor have made the choice obvious, vote Gillard or sod off.

Well I think most will sod off.LOL


----------



## sptrawler

Here's another classic.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/swan-basks-in-triplea-trifecta-20130329-2gz3y.html

If everything is so rosy, why all the new taxes? Why keep running deficits?

No credibility.

Bowen, Ferguson and Crean will resurect a viable Labor Party. If they are still there after the election.


----------



## dutchie

Simon Crean is the new Krudd (as far as stirring Gillard)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nal-rift-deepens/story-fn59nsif-1226610030006

Finally a Labor member with some balls!  (obviously Krudd doesn't have any)


----------



## medicowallet

dutchie said:


> Simon Crean is the new Krudd (as far as stirring Gillard)
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nal-rift-deepens/story-fn59nsif-1226610030006
> 
> Finally a Labor member with some balls!  (obviously Krudd doesn't have any)




He is the perfect candidate for labor.

Got balls.
Seems honest.
and not in the long term plan as he is a past failure.

Therefore, rope him in, cut some losses and toss him aside (or let him ride as opposition leader for the first term of opposition to save the chosen ones)

I really like Simon Crean

MW


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Gillard and the unions won this battle, let's see what happens after the election.
> There is every chance that Gillard and the goons will be forced out of Labor.IMO
> If the moderates in Labor don't take control of the party the party will be finished.




The internal war continues for Labor.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16481082/mua-push-to-take-over-wa-labor/

I think Gillard and the unions will wreck Labor, before Labor has time to wreck Australia.

Well, I certainly hope so.


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> I'd like to see Gillard, Swan and Conroy in particular lose their seats.
> Chris Bowen and Martin Ferguson, maybe Simon Crean, re-elected and head up the new Labor Party....



Where do I sign! I've read that Chris Bowen is in some danger of losing his seat, based on the anticipated swing in Sept. This would be catastrophic for Labor's post-election future. 

Here are the contestants at the Sept election: Coalition vs the Unions.


----------



## drsmith

The Australian's April Fools Day article,



> Preliminary figures from the OECD's annual survey of wage taxation show that the tax cuts introduced by the Rudd government between 2008 and 2010, as well as those included in the carbon tax compensation package, have lowered average tax rates by as much as 3.6 percentage points, with the biggest tax breaks going to the lowest paid.




Kevin Rudd's income tax cuts were Peter Costello's to which Labor said me-too while the carbon tax compensation package was part of a tax shift.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...han-under-howard/story-fn59nsif-1226609980026


----------



## noco

medicowallet said:


> He is the perfect candidate for labor.
> 
> Got balls.
> Seems honest.
> and not in the long term plan as he is a past failure.
> 
> Therefore, rope him in, cut some losses and toss him aside (or let him ride as opposition leader for the first term of opposition to save the chosen ones)
> 
> I really like Simon Crean
> 
> MW




But has Crean, Fitzgibbons and Ferguson got the balls to cross the floor and bring down the Government?????


----------



## drsmith

Labor raised the prospect of increased super taxes prior to last year's budget and in the end wimped out to an increased contributions tax on incomes above $300k.

From the SMH on April 21 2012,



> ''There are a number of options on the table and none of them will bother the people whose votes we need,'' one source said.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...rise-in-contributions-tax-20120420-1xcfa.html

Pre-budget last year they were still playing to win the next election. This time around, I'd suggest they've given up that hope and might just see it as a final act of wealth redistribution before being kicked from office.

Simon Crean and Joel Fitzgibbon I suspect are just firing a shot across the bow of a dying government not to go too far, although that doesn't leave too much wriggle room for a government that's already made changes.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Pre-budget last year they were still playing to win the next election. This time around, I'd suggest they've given up that hope and might just see it as a final act of wealth redistribution before being kicked from office.



Agree.  The people who will be affected would never have voted for Labor anyway, so Gillard & co. don't care.


----------



## noco

noco said:


> But has Crean, Fitzgibbons and Ferguson got the balls to cross the floor and bring down the Government?????




Well Crean and his supporters might just pull it off by bringing down the Gillard Government.

There is still lots of dissent in the Labor Camp and anything could happen before the 14th September.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...aldsun/comments/crean_leads_a_new_opposition/


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Well Crean and his supporters might just pull it off by bringing down the Gillard Government.
> 
> There is still lots of dissent in the Labor Camp and anything could happen before the 14th September.
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...aldsun/comments/crean_leads_a_new_opposition/




It would be the smart thing to do as it would look like a purging of the party, boy do they need that.

This nasty slap you down discipline Gillard is dishing out, is scaring the hell out of the party, let alone the electorate.

I'm just gratefull we aren't a 3rd world country. We aren't are we.


----------



## Logique

What a pass we have come to in federal politics. A Government with two Oppositions. This will make a great mini-series one day.

_Policy, not gender, will decide Gillard's fate at ballot box _-Gerard Henderson SMH 2 April 2013


> [Professor Marilyn] Lake believes ''most women and fair-minded men support [Gillard] in her program of change and her vision of a fairer society''.  If this is the case, Labor will win easily in September. If the Gillard government falls, the reason will be found in policy and administration - not gender.
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-ballot-box-20130401-2h2zu.html#ixzz2PFd7TNbx


----------



## dutchie

Logique said:


> This will make a great mini-series one day.




Spot on there Logique. Problem will be cutting five years down to 2 hours.


----------



## drsmith

2% point 2PP shift on Essential Media against Labor this week.

Bearing in mind it's a 2-week average, that's a pretty big shift. 

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport



dutchie said:


> Spot on there Logique. Problem will be cutting five years down to 2 hours.




It will be better suited to a miniseries, or perhaps several.


----------



## Calliope

What a rat-bag Craig Emerson is. He can play the role of the village idiot in the mini-series.



> “This is what I say about fabulously wealthy people - `God bless their little cotton socks',” Dr Emerson said.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> 2% point 2PP shift on Essential Media against Labor this week.
> 
> Bearing in mind it's a 2-week average, that's a pretty big shift.



Thanks for that, drsmith.  No comfort for Labor there.



> It will be better suited to a miniseries, or perhaps several.



I shudder at the thought of any permanent reminders of this government.
Let's just be thankful to consign them to distant memory after September.


----------



## dutchie

More Union hypocrisy.

ALP crusader on foreign workers Tony Sheldon puts staff on 457s 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ts-staff-on-457s/story-fn9hm1pm-1226611261017

ALP national vice-president and prominent union leader Tony Sheldon has recruited overseas workers on 457 visas to fill three key positions in his union, defending the move by claiming he could not find suitably qualified Australian workers to take the jobs.

Mr Sheldon, who two weeks ago accused some employers importing 457 visa workers of engaging in "human trafficking" and a "form of slavery", confirmed to The Australian that his chief of staff Dermot Ryan, media officer Barry Dunning and senior organiser Celia Petty were employed on 457 visas.



They truly are a joke!


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> I shudder at the thought of any permanent reminders of this government.
> Let's just be thankful to consign them to distant memory after September.




I feel it will be a long long time before a government this bad is a distant memory.
The atrocious ALP government of Gough Whitlam in the 1970’s is still a pretty strong memory for many people.


----------



## bellenuit

Nothing new added, but Michael Smith is feeling very exuberant this morning....

*I have received some fantastic news today - a major step forward in The AWU Scandal*

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...-a-major-step-forward-in-the-awu-scandal.html


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> Nothing new added, but Michael Smith is feeling very exuberant this morning....




Someone else isn't,



> ''I don't need 20,000 leagues of sea [sic]; I need an MRI at Mount Druitt Hospital," he said.
> 
> Mr Husic is a supporter of former prime minister Kevin Rudd and resigned his position as deputy whip during last month's leadership spill triggered by the sacked frontbencher Simon Crean.
> 
> The MP's criticisms come after a parade of ministers cautioned the government over its ''class war'' rhetoric on issues from 457 visas to superannuation tax changes.
> 
> Mr Crean, Martin Ferguson and Joel Fitzgibbon, who lost their posts in the aborted leadership spill, have continued to speak out particularly on any superannuation plans.




More than ever, the crockery from the house of Labor continues to be smashed into ever smaller pieces.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...usters-says-labor-mp-20130403-2h60d.html#poll


----------



## Logique

Voting has come in sharply, was 60:40. Now the No Ways have it 51%. Vote at the link under.

http://time100.time.com/2013/03/28/time-100-poll/slide/julia-gillard/


----------



## sails

Logique said:


> Voting has come in sharply, was 60:40. Now the No Ways have it 51%. Vote at the link under.
> 
> http://time100.time.com/2013/03/28/time-100-poll/slide/julia-gillard/
> 
> View attachment 51612





Don't know how she managed 60:40 at one stage - must have been the mummy bloggers...lol


----------



## drsmith

Latest Moran poll confirms what the others are saying,

http://www.roymorgan.com/roymorgan/general/Home.cfm


----------



## dutchie

Pickering nails it again...


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> Pickering nails it again...



I generally only consider Pickering as amusement value. 

That one though is brilliant.


----------



## sptrawler

IMO This whole debate and speculation as to what they will, or what they won't do to super.
Is just another clever McTernan diversion.
What is the best way to get peoples minds off that current 'real' issues.
Give them something in common to worry about, SUPER, even the reporters are emotionally involved and preoccupied with it.

Then when the budget is announced, Gillard turns around and says " I told you we wouldn't hurt super".
I can hear the mass sigh of relief now and people saying, "oh she did stand by her word, she isn't so bad".

Obviously they think we are pretty dumb, who knows she may be right.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> IMO This whole debate and speculation as to what they will, or what they won't do to super.
> Is just another clever McTernan diversion.
> What is the best way to get peoples minds off that current 'real' issues.



If that's the case, he's now working for someone other than Julia Gillard.


----------



## So_Cynical

Australia's credit rating still AAA-OK

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...credit-rating-still-aaaok-20130329-2gyct.html

Strange times when a Government can be so successful and yet be so unpopular...Perhaps taking the reins may turn out to be a bit of a poison chalice for the noalition. :dunno: one would think things can only get worse when your at the top of the wave and have been for 7/8 years. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_credit_rating
~


----------



## sptrawler

I suppose, when you are comparing our economy with basket cases, even a total disaster looks good.

The fact still remains, they haven't run a surplus, they haven't capitalised on a golden era, they still blame everyone else.

Sounds very much like union rhetoric, only the rusted on head bangers are believing it, that's why the polls are still hovering around 30% .
That is probably made up of 15% of union workers employed and 15% of union workers retired.
By the way I love the way you use Standard and Poors for your reference, weren't they the ones that gave credit ratings to the junk parcels of debt. That caused all this financial strife.LOL

Your priceless So_Cynical, you always give me a chuckle.


----------



## Logique

Just an update on the Time100 poll
http://time100.time.com/2013/03/28/time-100-poll/slide/julia-gillard/

- Julia Gillard now at: 46% Absolutely - 54% No Way. 

By comparison: 
- Kim Jong-Un at 76% Absolutely (I kid you not)
- Beyonce at 69% Absolutely
- Hillary Clinton at 66% Absolutely
- Bill Clinton at 65% Absolutely


----------



## dutchie

Logique said:


> Just an update on the Time100 poll
> http://time100.time.com/2013/03/28/time-100-poll/slide/julia-gillard/
> 
> - Julia Gillard now at: 46% Absolutely - 54% No Way.
> 
> By comparison:
> - Kim Jong-Un at 76% Absolutely (I kid you not)
> - Beyonce at 69% Absolutely
> - Hillary Clinton at 66% Absolutely
> - Bill Clinton at 65% Absolutely





Just shows how useless these types of surveys are.


----------



## Miss Hale

So_Cynical said:


> Australia's credit rating still AAA-OK
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...credit-rating-still-aaaok-20130329-2gyct.html
> 
> Strange times when a Government can be so successful and yet be so unpopular...Perhaps taking the reins may turn out to be a bit of a poison chalice for the noalition. :dunno: one would think things can only get worse when your at the top of the wave and have been for 7/8 years.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_credit_rating
> ~




Australia is still a great place compared to many other countries but this is not because of our current government but despite them.  We should be in a lot better position than we are given what this government inherited.  Frankly I don't care what the rest of the world does but it makes me angry when I see a government trashing the place like our government is doing now.  Australia has so much going for it, lets capitalise on that instead of abusing it.


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> The fact still remains, they haven't run a surplus, they haven't capitalised on a golden era, they still blame everyone else.




Golden era?


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> Golden era?




Well wayne and the goon show keep telling us it's all beer and skittles, brought in the MRRT tax because of the obscene super profits, the massive resources boom was producing.

You may have missed it while you were studying.


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> Well wayne and the goon show keep telling us it's all beer and skittles, brought in the MRRT tax because of the obscene super profits, the massive resources boom was producing.
> 
> You may have missed it while you were studying.




Hardly a golden era.


----------



## Julia

chops_a_must said:


> Hardly a golden era.



No?  What would constitute a golden era for you?


----------



## So_Cynical

Miss Hale said:


> Australia is still a great place compared to many other countries but this is not because of our current government but despite them.




So the ASF right keeps saying....bizarre because Labor took power in 2007 so when do they actually get credit for a triple a rated economy? When is it their fault? its been almost 6 years.


----------



## chops_a_must

Julia said:


> No?  What would constitute a golden era for you?




Personally?

Wage increases above my cost of living rises.
Easier access to promotion and to the next level in my pay scale.
Not being reliant on casual contracts.
More secure employment.

There is still a lot of trouble at the bottom end of the employment range. Even for skilled workers.

Broadly?

An increase in government revenues.
Reduction in demand for health services.
Being able to access a gp within a reasonable time frame.
Ability to be able to pay for the required public infrastructure.
A healthier global economy.


Our golden era has gone, and we won't ever be in as structurally positive environment until the boomers thin out in numbers.


----------



## drsmith

So_Cynical said:


> So the ASF right keeps saying....bizarre because Labor took power in 2007 so when do they actually get credit for a triple a rated economy? When is it their fault? its been almost 6 years.



That though is through the prism of sustained high commodity prices, something beyond the control of any government.

Fiscal management that was poor under the final years of the Howard Government has been even worse under Labor.

The reality about our overall economic will become far more obvious if there is a sustained downturn in the commodities that has kept our economy ticking over. We are simply not prepared for that and that's a failure of government.


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> So the ASF right keeps saying....bizarre because Labor took power in 2007 so when do they actually get credit for a triple a rated economy? When is it their fault? its been almost 6 years.




Look, they've done a magic job.
Thrown away money for the first three years, tried to reign it in for the next three.

It's a bit like me or you S_C going out on a spending binge with the missus, then when the bills come in you have to reign in the spending and support the debt. Not so easy.

Best not to go on the binge in the first place. 
What retail recession did they stop with the post out of cheques for plasmas? The one we are having now with the downturn in resources?


----------



## Calliope

chops_a_must said:


> Personally?
> 
> Wage increases above my cost of living rises.
> Easier access to promotion and to the next level in my pay scale.
> Not being reliant on casual contracts.
> More secure employment.




That's easy. Join the public service.


----------



## chops_a_must

Calliope said:


> That's easy. Join the public service.




I've had to swallow my opinions recently to try and do that. After swearing I couldn't.

It would mean an immediate 20% pay rise, for what I do/ can do.

Not something I could do long term though. I don't fancy doing my job, plus the jobs of 3-4 useless and lazy staff around me. It's enough having to deal with them currently.

Not something I could do over the long term.


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> Personally?
> 
> Wage increases above my cost of living rises.
> Easier access to promotion and to the next level in my pay scale.
> Not being reliant on casual contracts.
> More secure employment.
> 
> There is still a lot of trouble at the bottom end of the employment range. Even for skilled workers.
> 
> Broadly?
> 
> An increase in government revenues.
> Reduction in demand for health services.
> Being able to access a gp within a reasonable time frame.
> Ability to be able to pay for the required public infrastructure.
> A healthier global economy.
> 
> 
> Our golden era has gone, and we won't ever be in as structurally positive environment until the boomers thin out in numbers.




You guys crack me up, your unbelievable, ask your Mum and Dad if they were as affluent as this generation.

Unbloody believable.:1zhelp:


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> You guys crack me up, your unbelievable, ask your Mum and Dad if they were as affluent as this generation.
> 
> Unbloody believable.:1zhelp:




Dad walked into a full time job straight out of uni at 21, and apart from 3 months in the early 90s was employed in high paying jobs until he retired last year.

Mum was a bit different. Had to retire after having kids, and only got back into work after we were in our teens, and that rule had ceased. She has worked, and still works harder than anyone I've ever met.

They had a home paid off before they were both 30. Free education.

Their parents did it tough, but they didn't, no.

White men aged 55-65 have probably had it easier than any other demographic that has come before or will come again.


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> Dad walked into a full time job straight out of uni at 21, and apart from 3 months in the early 90s was employed in high paying jobs until he retired last year.
> 
> Mum was a bit different. Had to retire after having kids, and only got back into work after we were in our teens, and that rule had ceased. She has worked, and still works harder than anyone I've ever met.
> 
> They had a home paid off before they were both 30. Free education.
> 
> Their parents did it tough, but they didn't, no.
> 
> White men aged 55-65 have probably had it easier than any other demographic that has come before or will come again.




Well from my perspective, grew up eating rabbit stew, rabbit and dumplings, rabbit pie. Went to school with sugar or banana sandwiches.
Left school at 15, to do an apprenticeship, married at 21 three kids by 25.
First house paid cash after working and living in the NW for two years.
It was a weather board and tile from Midland, chopped in half transported and restumped, asylum seekers wouldn't have lved in it.
Then rebuild it, knock down all the plaster and re gyprock it, dig in your septics and your well for water.
You have no idea mate.
Won't go there, suffice to say a lot if not most of the self funded retirees, are there becauseof a lot of personal sacrifice.
It's really galling when people make lite of it.


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> It's really galling when people make lite of it.




And the same in reverse.

Good luck getting or doing an apprenticeship at 15 and surviving these days.

I've only been out of work for a few months since I was 14. I've always worked, and done as many hours as possible during study. That's come from my parents I guess.

Not everyone has a work ethic like that.

I'm not oblivious to the struggles that people have had and do have. The challenges are totally different these days. There just isn't the security these days.

But I have to laugh when my dad pulls that stunt. If he had to compete with women who were just as talented as he, he would not have had the armchair ride he and many other men had and continue to have in that generation.


----------



## sptrawler

chops_a_must said:


> And the same in reverse.
> 
> Good luck getting or doing an apprenticeship at 15 and surviving these days.
> 
> I've only been out of work for a few months since I was 14. I've always worked, and done as many hours as possible during study. That's come from my parents I guess.
> 
> Not everyone has a work ethic like that.
> 
> I'm not oblivious to the struggles that people have had and do have. The challenges are totally different these days. There just isn't the security these days.
> 
> But I have to laugh when my dad pulls that stunt. If he had to compete with women who were just as talented as he, he would not have had the armchair ride he and many other men had and continue to have in that generation.




Funny you should say that, a lot of my workmates and myself have left work recently.
Now we are all being phoned up to go back.lol 
Also leaving $180k jobs, the ones who have gone back are on $300k, so much for the young boys comming through. What a hoot.


----------



## chops_a_must

sptrawler said:


> Funny you should say that, a lot of my workmates and myself have left work recently.
> Now we are all being phoned up to go back.lol
> Also leaving $180k jobs, the ones who have gone back are on $300k, so much for the young boys comming through. What a hoot.




And that's because it is so difficult to get a start.

Companies just refuse to take on newly skilled workers.

It is a serious problem.


----------



## Logique

chops_a_must said:


> ...White men aged 55-65 have probably had it easier than any other demographic that has come before or will come again.



Oh really..affirmative action, gender quotas, family tax benefits, childcare tax breaks, school education allowances...need I go on. 

The boomers understood that marriage is a partnership, not a competition.


----------



## pilots

sptrawler said:


> Funny you should say that, a lot of my workmates and myself have left work recently.
> Now we are all being phoned up to go back.lol
> Also leaving $180k jobs, the ones who have gone back are on $300k, so much for the young boys comming through. What a hoot.




I worked in the Oil and Gas game, when I retired I was asked to work part time, I get more a day now than I got for a week b4.


----------



## sptrawler

pilots said:


> I worked in the Oil and Gas game, when I retired I was asked to work part time, I get more a day now than I got for a week b4.




A lot of companies are finding the new generation of workers leave a bit to be desired. My sons a supervisor at a large mine, reckons 90% are precious and want paying for just turning up.
Probably taking the lead from the government.


----------



## pilots

sptrawler said:


> A lot of companies are finding the new generation of workers leave a bit to be desired. My sons a supervisor at a large mine, reckons 90% are precious and want paying for just turning up.
> Probably taking the lead from the government.



Our trouble is all the young ones know every thing that is in the Lap Top, but when it comes to experience they don't have a clue, they hate it when us old farts make them look bad.


----------



## MrBurns

I heard last night from a very reliable source that Gillard will be charged with offences relating to the S&G AWU affair before the election.


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> I heard last night from a very reliable source that Gillard will be charged with offences relating to the S&G affair before the election.




Michael Smith?

Actually I'm not so sure that would be a good thing. It gives Labor a chance to change leaders if it happens soon. I would love to see her arrested a couple of days before polling day.


----------



## MrBurns

bellenuit said:


> Michael Smith?
> 
> Actually I'm not so sure that would be a good thing. It gives Labor a chance to change leaders if it happens soon. I would love to see her arrested a couple of days before polling day.




No not Smith someone who "knows" people.

This might have been what Smith was alluding to in earlier posts on his site about "exciting" news.


----------



## sptrawler

Well so much for Swan's call for less personal attacks. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-as-an-economic-simpleton-20130406-2hdq0.html

What an absolute disgrace, airing crap like that overseas. 
This from the goon show that shut down an industry after watching a 4 corners show on t.v.

They really do need a dose of self appraisal.

Also she could probably do with a course in statesmanship, running a domestic political campaign, while on a head of state visit to our major trading partner is dumb.
It just demeans her visit and shows her attention is elsewhere, dumb, dumb, dumb and somewhat disrespectfull. IMO
How would the P.M feel if the Chinese came here for talks and just started bad mouthing people in China.

It's also interesting, the frantic sounding "everything is for sale in Australia under this government, come and buy the farm" tone of Emersons pitch.
IMO just sad, very sad.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> What an absolute disgrace, airing crap like that overseas.



Agree that she should not bring Australian domestic politics into an international situation.
However, from the article referenced:


> Responding to comments made by the Australian Opposition Leader likening Labor's moves to tax high-end superannuation earnings to the bank accounts tax being levied in Cyprus, Ms Gillard's anger was obvious.



For Tony Abbott to make such an absurd comparison deserves a critical response.

This is the sort of hyperbolic, silly criticism that characterises much of Mr Abbott's overall commentary.
It does him no credit imo.


----------



## drsmith

Who trusts Labor on super ?



> If you were 50 years old or over, your annual cap for the 2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-12 financial years was $50,000.




http://www.ato.gov.au/super/content.aspx?doc=/content/60489.htm&page=3&H3

Labor reduces the concession cap to $25k for everybody and then offers a small fraction of that back with even harsher age restrictions if where foolish enough to actually vote them back in. 



> The Government will simplify the design and administration of the proposed higher concessional contributions cap, by providing an unindexed *$35,000 concessional cap *to anyone who meets certain age requirements.
> 
> The Government believes that it is important to allow people who have not had the benefit of the Superannuation Guarantee for their entire working lives to have the ability to contribute more to their superannuation as their retirement age approaches.  *Accordingly, the Government will bring forward the start date for the new higher cap to 1 July 2013 for people aged 60 and over.* Individuals aged 50 and over will be able to access the higher cap from the current planned start date of 1 July 2014.  The general concessional cap is expected to reach $35,000 from 1 July 2018.




http://www.treasurer.gov.au/Display...13/039.htm&pageID=003&min=wms&Year=&DocType=0



> OPPOSITION leader Tony Abbott has refused to commit to a Federal Government plan to lift the tax concessions on superannuation from $25,000 to $35,000 for over 60s.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...or-super-changes/story-fndo45r1-1226613817664 

Lift it ??

I reckon he'll trump it and remind the electorate Labor reduced it from $50k to $25k for over 50's only last year.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Agree that she should not bring Australian domestic politics into an international situation.
> However, from the article referenced:
> 
> For Tony Abbott to make such an absurd comparison deserves a critical response.
> 
> This is the sort of hyperbolic, silly criticism that characterises much of Mr Abbott's overall commentary.
> It does him no credit imo.




It is still dumb to air it on the international stage, makes her look like a nervous, attention seeking P.M that lacks decorum.
I'm sure the head of the IMF would have been stunned, this is the poor down trodden chick she saw on utube, I bet she has worked Julia out pretty quick.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Who trusts Labor on super ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ato.gov.au/super/content.aspx?doc=/content/60489.htm&page=3&H3
> 
> Labor reduces the concession cap to $25k for everybody and then offers a small fraction of that back with even harsher age restrictions if where foolish enough to actually vote them back in.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.treasurer.gov.au/Display...13/039.htm&pageID=003&min=wms&Year=&DocType=0
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...or-super-changes/story-fndo45r1-1226613817664
> 
> Lift it ??
> 
> I reckon he'll trump it and remind the electorate Labor reduced it from $50k to $25k for over 50's only last year.




Don't worry doc. most people I've debated on the forum, think $800k in super is filthy rich.lol

Obviously they think the pension at current levels is a given, because they don't have a clue, as to what is really required to be 'self funded' and not a burden on the welfare(tax) system.

Ask people from U.S, U.K and Europe who are earning 1% or less on bank deposits. 
Chuck them figures in your retirement calculator.   Then see how much you need to retire.lol


----------



## So_Cynical

sptrawler said:


> Don't worry doc. most people I've debated on the forum, think $800k in super is filthy rich.lol




That's cos it is.

I'm going into semi retirement in a few years with a hell of a lot less, i will never have enough money to even contribute up to the current 25K cap...and there's a heap of people my age in the same boat, dinghy.

The way you guys crap on about money.


----------



## drsmith

So_Cynical said:


> The way you guys crap on about money.



That's because we value it, unlike Labor.

As for talking about boats, there's another thread for that. :


----------



## sptrawler

So_Cynical said:


> That's cos it is.
> 
> I'm going into semi retirement in a few years with a hell of a lot less, i will never have enough money to even contribute up to the current 25K cap...and there's a heap of people my age in the same boat, dinghy.
> 
> The way you guys crap on about money.




Yes and I bet you will be pulling a pension.

The way I crap on about money is because I've worked hard, in crappy conditions in crappy areas and done without.
If you want to compare stories, PM me.lol


----------



## MrBurns

A summary -


----------



## bigdog

*Another promise broken*

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...xposed-as-a-hoax/story-fncynkc6-1226613981481

*Julia Gillard's $10,000 teachers bonus election pledge exposed as a hoax *
Samantha Maiden
The Sunday Telegraph 
April 07, 201312:00AM


*PRIME Minister Julia Gillard's election pledge to deliver $10,000 bonus payments for top teachers has been exposed as a hoax.  *

Confidential documents prepared by the government confirm that payments to the states under the plan will cease in 2014, the same year thousands of teachers hoped they would finally secure the cash.

It will be up to the states to decide whether to pay teachers the promised bonuses or not.

The Council of Australian Governments funding deal outlines the government's formal offer to the states to implement the so-called Gonski school reforms and includes demands new teachers undergo literacy tests and that children be subjected to "school readiness tests".

The 47-page National Education Reform Agreement outlining the next four-year funding deal for all states confirms that the bonus payments for teachers are no longer guaranteed.

"If a state or territory signs this agreement, payments under the Rewards for Great Teachers National Partnership will cease on 1 January, 2014," the documents say. Teacher unions had opposed the bonus scheme for top teachers, suggesting all should be paid more.

Promised by the Prime Minister during the 2010 election campaign, the Rewards for Great Teachers program pledged to deliver cash bonuses for up to 25,000 teachers.

But the program was quickly gutted in government, with the original $425 million spending cut in half and the number of teachers who could expect bonuses reduced.

Since 2010, not a single single teacher has secured a bonus under the scheme, with the government confirming they will not force the states to implement the program. Education Minister Peter Garrett confirmed it was now up to the states whether the promised scheme is rolled out.

While he hoped the states would offer bonuses next year, the Gillard government would not compel them to do so.

"We want to see great teachers rewarded," a spokesman said. "The states have asked for flexibility to manage the recognition and career structures of their teachers, which is why we have not mandated rewarding teachers in the draft National Education Reform Agreement."

Victoria and Queensland have not signed up reward partnership. Opposition education spokesman Chris Pyne said the broken election promise was disgraceful.

"Teachers have every right to be disappointed but importantly, this is the latest example of Julia Gillard's grotesque delusions about the truth," Mr Pyne said.


----------



## Calliope

> It is understood Ms Gillard's partner, Tim Mathieson, who is also on the trip, will meet with China's new first lady Peng Liyuan, a popular singer who has been lauded for her fashion style




It is hoped that Tim can pick up a few hints on fashion style to pass on to Julia.
As a back-up Julia has also taken former live-in lover Craig Emerson along on the trip.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> No not Smith someone who "knows" people.
> 
> This might have been what Smith was alluding to in earlier posts on his site about "exciting" news.



Michael Smith's latest,

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ling-this-document-is-a-forgery.html#comments

No new actual information in the audio that I could tell, just more thoughts on Gillard's word vs Blewitt's word.

I would have thought that if she was about to be charged, there would be a tap on the shoulder from within the Labor Party first, but these are strange political times. I wonder how many in the caucus itself want to see something happen, just so she finally falls from her perch.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Michael Smith's latest,
> 
> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ling-this-document-is-a-forgery.html#comments
> 
> No new actual information in the audio that I could tell, just more thoughts on Gillard's word vs Blewitt's word.
> 
> I would have thought that if she was about to be charged, there would be a tap on the shoulder from within the Labor Party first, but these are strange political times. I wonder how many in the caucus itself want to see something happen, just so she finally falls from her perch.




As I said I'll believe it when I see it but apparently QC's are interviewing people involved right now.

You're right drsmith..........if this looked at all threatening she would have to go ASAP.


----------



## McLovin

MrBurns said:


> As I said I'll believe it when I see it but apparently QC's are interviewing people involved right now.




Why would a QC be doing the work of the police?


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> Why would a QC be doing the work of the police?




Could be preparing a case I don't really know
Probably a false lead but we'll find out soon enough


----------



## McLovin

MrBurns said:


> Could be preparing a case I don't really know
> Probably a false lead but we'll find out soon enough




A QC would only be engaged once the DPP has prepared the case. The DPP won't prepare the case until police have, at the very least, charged someone. Otherwise there is no case to answer. I imagine this story would be leaking like the Titanic if it were true.


----------



## AAA

McLovin said:


> A QC would only be engaged once the DPP has prepared the case. The DPP won't prepare the case until police have, at the very least, charged someone. Otherwise there is no case to answer. I imagine this story would be leaking like the Titanic if it were true.




In a case like this the police would finish preparing the brief and then hand it over to DPP before anyone was charged. It would then be likely for DPP to have any number of QCs examine the brief and provide opinion on the chances of a successful prosecution. If the opinions of the consulted QCs was that there was a reasonable possibility of a successful prosecution police would then be given the green light to proceed with charges.


----------



## McLovin

AAA said:


> In a case like this the police would finish preparing the brief and then hand it over to DPP before anyone was charged. It would then be likely for DPP to have any number of QCs examine the brief and provide opinion on the chances of a successful prosecution. If the opinions of the consulted QCs was that there was a reasonable possibility of a successful prosecution police would then be given the green light to proceed with charges.




I stand corrected.


----------



## MrBurns

It's starting to sound very much like the Michael Smith story, but Labor would move her out before any charges were laid surely.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia's on the world stage, trying to impress for her next job.
The boys are in the trough before it dries up.
The girls are giving the boys a public lashing.
Yep, just another day in Australian politics.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nnuation-remarks/story-e6frg6n6-1226614210953


----------



## matty77

I have changed my vote to Gillard.

Thank you Adam Hills for clarifying some of the issues and confirming she is doing a "great job"


----------



## Ijustnewit

matty77 said:


> I have changed my vote to Gillard.
> 
> Thank you Adam Hills for clarifying some of the issues and confirming she is doing a "great job"




Who would take any notice of a pirate with one leg that works for the ABC .


----------



## moXJO

matty77 said:


> I have changed my vote to Gillard.
> 
> Thank you Adam Hills for clarifying some of the issues and confirming she is doing a "great job"




Maybe he wanted a job in the labor party, but to late Hillsy labors already full of comedians.


----------



## drsmith

A political commentary wasn't something the audience was expecting judging by their reaction.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> A political commentary wasn't something the audience was expecting judging by their reaction.





Jeez, that's a bit out there, maybe he's hoping for the next Labor parachute. Will it be another captains pick.


----------



## drsmith

Latest Essential Media poll shows no change from last week. 2PP 56/44 in favour of the Coalition.

People are happier with the economy than they are with the government.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Jeez, that's a bit out there, maybe he's hoping for the next Labor parachute. Will it be another captains pick.



If not, he's alienated 56% of his potential audience.


----------



## wayneL

I have a feeling this has been posted on ASF before, but still apt.



> While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75 year old ringer, whose hand was caught in the squeeze gate while
> working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old bloke.
> 
> Eventually the topic got around to Julia Gillard and her role as our prime minister. The old ringer said, 'Well, ya know mate, Julia is a 'Post Turtle''.
> Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him, what a 'post turtle' was.
> 
> The old ringer said, 'When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle
> balanced on top, that's a 'post turtle'.
> 
> The old ringer saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain. "You know she didn't get
> up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, she doesn't know what to do while she's up there,
> she's elevated beyond her ability to function, and you just Wonder what kind of idiot put her up there to
> begin with."


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> If not, he's alienated 56% of his potential audience.




It is starting to appear that every body and their dog wants to get a parachute into a Labor position. 
Would it be for the pension, or to help the working class people?
Jeez it's becoming a bit obvious, isn't it?
Even the union boys must be getting peeved, by the hand picking of t.v, sports and music personalities, being parachuted in.

The real problem for them is the high profile celebs, have cottoned on.

Why have a union hack ,when you could possibly get a home and away star, they already know how to act and perform for the camera.lol

As someone has allready said, they have too many comedians already.


----------



## drsmith

Labor do like playing with themselves in the mud.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...n-gellibrand-preselection-20130408-2hhe7.html

Stephen Conroy's comments leaves one thinking that this battle within his own party is more important than battle with the Opposition.


----------



## Julia

Labor up a couple of points and the Coalition down accordingly in today's poll.
Is this perhaps because of Julia Gillard's somewhat improved performance on the international stage?

My impression has been that it has all gone pretty well for her and that she is vastly more comfortable than she once was beyond Australian shores.  She has also improved her verbal delivery - it's more flowing, rather than tediously slow.

Other impressions?


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Other impressions?



The last fortnight for Labor wasn't as bad as the one before. That would be hard to top. Also, relief on the super front for those who still want to believe.

Possibly within statistical error too.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Other impressions?




I think this proves the polls are about as low as they can go for Labor and will stay around there, if what's happened so far hasn't dragged them lower nothing will.

Gillard just barrels on as if there's nothing wrong.........delusional, very strong or narcissistic  - 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder


----------



## moXJO

Ill call it early. Labor imo will start gaining ground. Libs will lose based on policy, unless they have something up their sleeve.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Some smart **** knob in Adelaide has made a dog's toy called Droolia.  

It's ok to be disrespectful so long as everyone else is?

They should come out with An Eddie Mabo dog's toy.  Can you imagine?  Yeh...exactly.

I'm not a labour supporter so forget that angle.


----------



## sptrawler

Gringotts Bank said:


> Some smart **** knob in Adelaide has made a dog's toy called Droolia.
> 
> It's ok to be disrespectful so long as everyone else is?
> 
> They should come out with An Eddie Mabo dog's toy.  Can you imagine?  Yeh...exactly.
> 
> I'm not a labour supporter so forget that angle.




Yes it's getting a bit out off control, same as the knobs in U.K dancing in the streets at hearing of Thatchers death.
It's a sad indictment on our society.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Ill call it early. Labor imo will start gaining ground. Libs will lose based on policy, unless they have something up their sleeve.



Big odds to be had if you're prepared to put money on that.



> Hung Parliament   34.00
> Labor wins 81 - 85 seats   41.00
> Labor wins 86 - 90 seats   67.00
> Labor wins 91 seats or more   81.00




http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...Australian-Federal-Election-2013/14-3668.html


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> Ill call it early. Labor imo will start gaining ground. Libs will lose based on policy, unless they have something up their sleeve.






drsmith said:


> Big odds to be had if you're prepared to put money on that.



When I read moXJO's post I took from it just that he was suggesting Labor would now start gaining better numbers, not that they would actually win the election.  But I can see that indeed moXJO was predicting this.
Can you clarify, moXO?

I'll be surprised if the government doesn't get a lift as a result of Julia Gillard's successful trip to China and the somewhat second rate sounding NBN policy from the Coalition.

Plus at least the perception that our border controls are so shot that it will be impossible for the Coalition to reverse the ever increasing flow of boats.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> I'll be surprised if the government doesn't get a lift as a result of Julia Gillard's successful trip to China and the somewhat second rate sounding NBN policy from the Coalition.
> 
> Plus at least the perception that our border controls are so shot that it will be impossible for the Coalition to reverse the ever increasing flow of boats.



The Coalition NBN policy is a hard sell. It is, put simply, not as sexy as Labor's. I actually congratulate them for making a tough political choice although the toughness is perhaps influenced to some extent by their advantage in the polls. This is what we need more of, from both sides.

The electorate will express their despair on border control by voting Labor out. This has become a disaster for both the party and the country as a whole.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> When I read moXJO's post I took from it just that he was suggesting Labor would now start gaining better numbers, not that they would actually win the election.  But I can see that indeed moXJO was predicting this.
> Can you clarify, moXO?
> 
> I'll be surprised if the government doesn't get a lift as a result of Julia Gillard's successful trip to China and the somewhat second rate sounding NBN policy from the Coalition.
> 
> Plus at least the perception that our border controls are so shot that it will be impossible for the Coalition to reverse the ever increasing flow of boats.




I think labor has just enough left over policy that people still want (NBN, NDIS Carbon tax, small business tax offset etc) and Abbott has enough policy that is stupid in some areas and boring and responsible in others, that it will not excite people enough. I'm baulking at some of the libs policy and the way they dead end themselves when they announce things.
I'm also seeing socialist attitudes creep into the general public's mindset a lot these last few months.
All Labor has to do is show stability and improvement over the next few months to get a tight election.
I might take those odds on offer at the moment for a punt

I think Labor is terrible and setting Australia up for a lot of pain down the track. But I think they can still win it, five months is a lifetime in politics.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> I might take those odds on offer at the moment for a punt



Before you do, I've just noticed that the option of Labor winning 76 - 80 seats is not there.

On their performance in government alone, I don't think they have a snowball's chance in hell of winning by the way.


----------



## Logique

moXJO said:


> I think labor has just enough left over policy that people still want (..Carbon tax)...



Fear not moXJO, but nobody wants the carbon tax. It is the petard upon which Labor is hoist.


----------



## drsmith

Poor Wayne.

He won't be delivering a surplus past, present or future.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-...ates-revenue-warning/4620532?section=business

For this FY so far, the deficit to the end of Jan is $26.8bn.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Poor Wayne.
> 
> He won't be delivering a surplus past, present or future.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-...ates-revenue-warning/4620532?section=business
> 
> For this FY so far, the deficit to the end of Jan is $26.8bn.




The worst thing that can happen to Wayne is that they win the election.


----------



## Julia

moXJO said:


> I think labor has just enough left over policy that people still want (NBN, NDIS Carbon tax, small business tax offset etc)



The overwhelming majority of the electorate is against the carbon tax.  Agree that the NBN and NDIS are winning initiatives for the government.


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> Labor do like playing with themselves in the mud.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...n-gellibrand-preselection-20130408-2hhe7.html
> 
> Stephen Conroy's comments leaves one thinking that this battle within his own party is more important than battle with the Opposition.




This little pre-selection spat got a run on the ABC's 730 tonight.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3734333.htm


----------



## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> This little pre-selection spat got a run on the ABC's 730 tonight.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3734333.htm




I saw that too, followed by 'Mad as Hell' which included quite a few digs at the Labor government.  Didn't turn off the TV until 8pm tonight 

The whole pre-selection for Roxon's seat seems to have gone pear shaped for the Emily's Listers who were desperate to get a female candidate in.  The one that won is a croney of Conroy though so I can't imagine he is much chop


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Miss Hale said:


> I saw that too, followed by 'Mad as Hell' which included quite a few digs at the Labor government.  Didn't turn off the TV until 8pm tonight
> 
> The whole pre-selection for Roxon's seat seems to have gone pear shaped for the Emily's Listers who were desperate to get a female candidate in.  The one that won is a croney of Conroy though so I can't imagine he is much chop




The Coalition don't have the same problem, as female candidates just occurr, as a normal course of events.

The problem with Labor is the party's Union predomination of paunchy old Union hacks who because they are paunchy, procreate without females.

gg


----------



## noco

Another Green/Labor hare brain scheme to divert your attention away from the critical issues.

Fast rail from Brisbane to Melbourne. Brisbane to Sydney in 3 hours.

I doubt very much that the kids born today will ever see it.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-train-on-track/story-fn59niix-1226617751948


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Another Green/Labor hare brain scheme to divert your attention away from the critical issues.
> 
> Fast rail from Brisbane to Melbourne. Brisbane to Sydney in 3 hours.
> 
> I doubt very much that the kids born today will ever see it.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-train-on-track/story-fn59niix-1226617751948




They can move on with that when they've finished the NBN and fixed up the batts, probably 2075, or so.


----------



## Miss Hale

noco said:


> Another Green/Labor hare brain scheme to divert your attention away from the critical issues.
> 
> Fast rail from Brisbane to Melbourne. Brisbane to Sydney in 3 hours.
> 
> I doubt very much that the kids born today will ever see it.
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t-train-on-track/story-fn59niix-1226617751948




Having travelled on these fast trains in other parts of the world I love the idea of this....however, I do wonder if it is practical/cost effective for us here in Australia, I have heard that it isn't - and would people really opt for three hours in a train when they can fly to Sydney from Melbourne in one hour?  The previous state government here put in a fast train from Melbourne to Bendigo and it cost a fortune and only cut a few minutes off the trip and if it gets to hot they have to slow it down anyway so debatable whether it was worth the cost.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Having travelled on these fast trains in other parts of the world I love the idea of this....however, I do wonder if it is practical/cost effective for us here in Australia, I have heard that it isn't - and would people really opt for three hours in a train when they can fly to Sydney from Melbourne in one hour?  The previous state government here put in a fast train from Melbourne to Bendigo and it cost a fortune and only cut a few minutes off the trip and if it gets to hot they have to slow it down anyway so debatable whether it was worth the cost.




I agree I don't think we have the population to support it and with airlines flying cheaper as time goes on ...well ???

And frankly I don't trust the Govt's here to do this right, everything they do is half arsed, I don't think I want to be in a train at 300kph built to Australian standards


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> And frankly I don't trust the Govt's here to do this right, everything they do is half arsed, I don't think I want to be in a train at 300kph built to Australian standards




That goes without saying  , not sure I'd even trust a Coalition government to effectively implement it, governments are inherently inefficient at these sort of things (IMO).  If the idea had any real legs you can bet some business entepreneur would be doing it, they're not so that sends warning signals to me that it could be a giant white elephant.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> That goes without saying  , not sure I'd even trust a Coalition government to effectively implement it, governments are inherently inefficient at these sort of things (IMO).  If the idea had any real legs you can bet some business entepreneur would be doing it, they're not so that sends warning signals to me that it could be a giant white elephant.




Agree, doesn't matter, Lib or Labor you wouldn't get me into anything like that built here.
I'm still worried about the Westgate Bridge going again........it just doesn't feel right, too high too much traffic, moving slowly at that height ???


----------



## drsmith

February's employment statistics turned out to be a ballistic trajectory.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-month-from-54pc/story-e6frg926-1226618103858


----------



## drsmith

Miss Hale said:


> Having travelled on these fast trains in other parts of the world I love the idea of this....however, I do wonder if it is practical/cost effective for us here in Australia, I have heard that it isn't - and would people really opt for three hours in a train when they can fly to Sydney from Melbourne in one hour?  The previous state government here put in a fast train from Melbourne to Bendigo and it cost a fortune and only cut a few minutes off the trip and if it gets to hot they have to slow it down anyway so debatable whether it was worth the cost.



As part of their agreement with the Greens, Labor agreed to investigate a fast train along the eastern seaboard. Beyond that, I doubt they are serious and have perhaps raised it as a distraction. In highlighting the huge expense in light of our present budget difficulties, I don't think they're chasing specific public support for it.

Of interest in The Australian's article was the small video segment on the fast train service between Rome and Naples. The combined populations of the broader metro areas of these two cities is about 8 million and the distance is 226km (Google maps). A lot less than the distance between our population centres of similar size.


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> That goes without saying  , not sure I'd even trust a Coalition government to effectively implement it, governments are inherently inefficient at these sort of things (IMO).  If the idea had any real legs you can bet some business entepreneur would be doing it, they're not so that sends warning signals to me that it could be a giant white elephant.




Yes another NBN. Labor makes the pitch on the basis that anything with the description "high-speed" attached to it will be attractive to voters. In Queensland  our priorities point North, not South. If we need to spend money on transport, a high speed flood-proof Bruce Highway is our first priority.



> BACWARDS to the future! The government is looking at 19th century technology in a bid to improve inter-capital travel in Australia, with a feasibility study revealing a high-speed train link along our eastern coast would cost $114 billion.
> 
> This may be the least feasible feasibility study ever conducted in our nation's history. Consider the almost inconceivable complexity and difficulty of constructing a high-speed rail line from Melbourne, through Sydney and on to Brisbane. Such a work would rival the scale of the Snowy Mountains Scheme.
> 
> The potential political battles over the zoning of land for this project, across three states and myriad councils, don't bear thinking about.
> 
> Also, there are environmental issues. One rare frog could stop this idea before the first metre of track is laid.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...for-dimwit-ideas/story-e6frezz0-1226617676145


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> In Queensland  our priorities point North, not South. If we need to spend money on transport, a high speed flood-proof Bruce Highway is our first priority.



So true.  There's probably limited awareness outside of Qld re how many towns are cut off for days any time there is heavy rain = no food in the shops, just as one effect.

How about Labor just getting one single project completed, on time, on budget, and without massive stuff-ups, before they start engaging in more grandiose ideas!


----------



## drsmith

> Fifty-year-old Mr Albanese on Thursday released a study into a high-speed rail network that could cost up to $114 billion and take until 2058 to complete.
> -----------------------
> Fares between the capital city hubs would mirror prices for air travel, prompting Mr Albanese to say passengers should not expect $20 tickets between Sydney and Melbourne.




What about with pensioner discounts ?



> It would require 144km of tunnels, including 67km under Sydney. "It's certainly a cracker of a tunnel," Mr Albanese said of the Sydney route.
> -----------------------
> Mr Albanese said the report was not a funding proposal and there would be no provision in the May 14 federal budget for the project.




Thank goodness. There's already a cracker of a hole in the budget.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1755182/High-speed-rail-could-be-viable-Albanese


----------



## medicowallet

Julia said:


> How about Labor just getting one single project completed, on time, on budget, and without massive stuff-ups, before they start engaging in more grandiose ideas!




If they would have delivered half of their promises well, I don't think the Liberals would have stood a chance.  I hope a future government realises this too.

MW


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> So true.  There's probably limited awareness outside of Qld re how many towns are cut off for days any time there is heavy rain = no food in the shops, just as one effect.
> 
> How about Labor just getting one single project completed, on time, on budget, and without massive stuff-ups, before they start engaging in more grandiose ideas!




Julia, it is the normal tactics of this inept Green/Labor government to keep diverting the minds of voters away from the real issues of their stuff ups.


----------



## drsmith

Will Wayne Swan raid the RBA again, against the Governor's wishes ?



> The Reserve Bank projects it will have $550 million available for distribution in the 12 months to June 30, a year after it was forced to hand the government almost half its earnings against Governor Glenn Stevens’s wishes, documents show.
> 
> Mr Stevens urged Treasurer Wayne Swan to forego a dividend from the RBA for the year to June 2012 to allow the governor to rebuild a buffer drained by the high currency.




http://www.theage.com.au/business/let-us-keep-dividend-rba-urged-swan-20130411-2hnw5.html


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> How about Labor just getting one single project completed, on time, on budget, and without massive stuff-ups, before they start engaging in more grandiose ideas!



This one from the outset is not even expected to run at a profit.



> ◾The HSR program and the majority of its individual stages are expected to produce only a small positive financial return on investment. Governments would be required to fund the majority of the upfront capital costs.
> 
> ◾If HSR passenger projections were met at the fare levels proposed, the HSR system, once operational, could generate sufficient fare revenue and other revenue to meet operating costs without ongoing public subsidy.



Without ongoing public subsidy ??

Never mind all the capital that would have gone into building it.  

Commercial airlines don't make much money either, but they at least aren't on the public purse for their capex.

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/index.aspx


----------



## JTLP

drsmith said:


> What about with pensioner discounts ?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank goodness. There's already a cracker of a hole in the budget.
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1755182/High-speed-rail-could-be-viable-Albanese




I'm failing to see the point if costs were to rival airline tickets? Wouldn't you save the time and fly?


----------



## drsmith

JTLP said:


> I'm failing to see the point if costs were to rival airline tickets? Wouldn't you save the time and fly?




Not according to the predictions, 



> It predicted that by 2065, the train could poach 40 per cent of inter-city air travel and 60 per cent of regional air travel, with an average of 83.6 million passengers a year expected to use it.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/highspeed-rail-link-would-be-viable-20130410-2hlqa.html

If the Greens have their way, airline tickets won't be an option for the comrade class,



> High Speed rail is a nation building project that will transform how we move around the country and will be central to the shift to a clean economy.




http://adam-bandt.greensmps.org.au/portfolios/high-speed-rail


----------



## Calliope

No doubt, this is a misogynist dog. But he knows a rodent when he sees one.
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/


----------



## sptrawler

Wow now we have the minority government support group throwing up the theatrics.

Don't you love how they posture and pose, to try and distance themselves from the result they orchestrated.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16692097/woodside-shelve-gas-hub-project/

These are the same dumb @rse union, that spent heaps of dollars to get rid of Barnett, who was the only one fighting for their jobs.

How can they keep writing this rubbish unabated, do they think everyone else lives in a vacuum?

It just shows the demise of Labor, the demise of the unions and more immediately the end of the greens.

Epitomises conflict of interest, they got what they wanted and everyones a loser.


----------



## Aussiejeff

I think JuLiar wants to create a Legacy To Remember With Fondness. Whether the Fast Train ever eventuates, one thing is for sure. She will claim in her Memoirs that the whole dream was really set in motion under HER watch and HER watch alone. 

Stand by for more Grandiose Schemes to be announced by the Labor Rabble before Retributio.....errr.....Election Day rolls around.


----------



## sptrawler

Aussiejeff said:


> I think JuLiar wants to create a Legacy To Remember With Fondness. Whether the Fast Train ever eventuates, one thing is for sure. She will claim in her Memoirs that the whole dream was really set in motion under HER watch and HER watch alone.
> 
> Stand by for more Grandiose Schemes to be announced by the Labor Rabble before Retributio.....errr.....Election Day rolls around.




Yep, spot on endless crap, as they sit on the balcony watching the sun set over Sydnet harbour.

They just think we can't see it.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Wow now we have the minority government support group throwing up the theatrics.
> 
> Don't you love how they posture and pose, to try and distance themselves from the result they orchestrated.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16692097/woodside-shelve-gas-hub-project/
> 
> These are the same dumb @rse union, that spent heaps of dollars to get rid of Barnett, who was the only one fighting for their jobs.
> 
> How can they keep writing this rubbish unabated, do they think everyone else lives in a vacuum?
> 
> It just shows the demise of Labor, the demise of the unions and more immediately the end of the greens.
> 
> Epitomises conflict of interest, they got what they wanted and everyones a loser.




IMO this is the dumbest bunch of losers that ever walked on Australian soil.


----------



## drsmith

This will be interesting to keep an eye on,

http://www.finance.gov.au/publicati...ancial-statements/2013/mfs-february-2013.html

It looks like revenue picked up in Feb relative to expenses reducing the underlying cash debt to $23.6bn.

Relative to MYEFO though, both the fiscal and underlying cash balances are still deteriorating.


----------



## db94

http://www.smh.com.au/national/university-sector-to-be-hit-in-gonski-reforms-20130413-2hry2.html
If they wanted to get any more unpopular they're going the right way about it


----------



## drsmith

db94 said:


> If they wanted to get any more unpopular they're going the right way about it



They're not brave enough to hit the mainstream in the lead up to an election.

Capping tax breaks self education expenses strikes me as sound in principal. At the very least, the justification for it being uncapped need to be reviewed. A cap on negative gearing should also be considered.

With clawing back scholarship money, it will be interesting to see if it's retrospective.

It will also be interesting to see the extent to which it impacts on this,



> Australia currently sits at 25th out of 29 advanced economies ranked on public investment in universities as a percentage of gross domestic product.




The problem is as always with this government. It's just another desperate money grab to shore up our failing budget position.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...r-gonski-reforms/story-fn59niix-1226619719867


----------



## sptrawler

As the old saying goes "There's trouble at mill", it would appear Labors still has internal issues.

Like some of us, her own support group, think she doesn't listen

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/mps-voices-fall-on-tin-ears-20130413-2hryl.html

Isn't it ironic, this is the issue they said Rudd had.lol

Maybe it is just a case of when you take over, and see what a bunch of dick heads you are leading, you just have to go alone.

IMO Emerson must be nudging Swan for the wooden spoon award.


----------



## ROE

“When one treats people with benevolence, justice, and righteousness, and reposes confidence in them, the army will be united in mind and all will be happy to serve their leaders'.” 
― Sun Tzu

back stabbing and infighting doesn't fall into righteousness and justice 

“If there is disturbance in the camp, the general's authority is weak. ” 
― Sun Tzu


----------



## sptrawler

ROE said:


> “When one treats people with benevolence, justice, and righteousness, and reposes confidence in them, the army will be united in mind and all will be happy to serve their leaders'.”
> ― Sun Tzu
> 
> back stabbing and infighting doesn't fall into righteousness and justice
> 
> “If there is disturbance in the camp, the general's authority is weak. ”
> ― Sun Tzu




Yep, it just shows a lack of common goals, they seem to have lost that since Bob Brown left.

Now when they have to stump up their own policies, they seem, illogical, ill concieved and require mega bucks, as usual.


----------



## ROE

Lost opportunity for us...when this stuff end...we will have a big hole in the ground and nothing to show for it...and
the lucky Norway people can live off their earning in eternity .....someone said you you create your own luck 

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3736272.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3736274.htm


----------



## Logique

db94 said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/national/university-sector-to-be-hit-in-gonski-reforms-20130413-2hry2.html
> If they wanted to get any more unpopular they're going the right way about it



Now the universities feel the sting of this re-distributive government, which they supported..

Just the latest iteration of re-distributive policy making, and they're casting the net wider, with a greedy eye on our superannuation balances.


----------



## Aussiejeff

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

JuLiar just crack$ me up!!!!!! 



> Julia Gillard *pledges $14b school funds boost* while cutting $2.8b from universities
> 
> "We know we need to make improvements if we are *to take Australia into the world's top five education systems by 2025 and I am determined to get it done*."
> 
> Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...es/story-fncynjr2-1226619888205#ixzz2QNgVNyOg




Good on yer Jools. Only you can do it! You must plan on still being PM in 2025 then, eh? HAHAHA!!!!!

...forsooth I had only just predicted moar grandiose plan$ in my previous post?

Sadly for Australian citizens, the only thing JuLiar can succeed in any more is to make a laughing stock of the position of Australian PM.....


----------



## MrBurns

Delusional no doubt about it

"I'm ready for my close up now Mr Demille"


----------



## drsmith

The tertiary education cuts are a poison pill according to Rob Oakeshott.



> Federal independent MP Rob Oakeshott described the cuts as a "poison pill", and called on Treasurer Wayne Swan to rule out any further cuts to higher education in May's federal budget.




Poor Rob can't come to terms with how poisonous was the way in which the carbon tax was hoisted upon the electorate.  This one must seem less poisonous by comparison as it does seem from the statement above that he's still going to swallow it.

The federal government itself wants to spend an extra $50bn on school funding over the next 6-years. The question as always is where will the money come from. The states are on the hook for some. 



> The Federal Government will unveil its plan later today to increase public school spending to $50 billion for the next six years. Under the proposed Gonski funding reforms, public schools will receive an extra $12 billion. Catholic schools will get an extra $1.5 billion and independent schools an extra $1 billion. Commonwealth funding would increase by 4.7 per cent, provided the states and territories boost their spending by 3 per cent.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-14/educators-mps-furious-over-university-funding-cuts/4627652


----------



## sptrawler

Well in todays paper, they seem to have a plan for housing asylum seekers.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/live-in-asylum-help/story-fnhocxo3-1226619913670

There you go doc, a little cash earner for you. I'm not sure if its $50/ person, per family or per room. 
More detail will probably follow.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Well in todays paper, they seem to have a plan for housing asylum seekers.



Didn't they try something like this before ?

It should be compulsory for all Greens voters and supporters of David Marr's political views.


----------



## DB008

Why is the NBN speed limited to 100mbps when Google is already releasing plans with 1gbps? 10 times difference.


----------



## drsmith

DB008 said:


> Why is the NBN speed limited to 100mbps when Google is already releasing plans with 1gbps? 10 times difference.




And the price (USD),



> Up to one gigabit upload & download
> No data caps · $300 waived construction fee
> 1 year contract · 1TB Google Drive · $70/mo + taxes and fees




If you don't need the speed,



> Future-proof your home with
> free Internet at today's average speeds.
> You can upgrade to Fiber speeds anytime,
> with no additional equipment needed.
> 
> Up to 5Mbps download, 1Mbps upload speed
> No data caps · Free service guaranteed for
> At least 7 years · $300 construction fee
> (one time or 12 monthly payments of $25)
> + taxes and fees




http://fiber.google.com/mobile/plans/


----------



## IFocus

ROE said:


> Lost opportunity for us...when this stuff end...we will have a big hole in the ground and nothing to show for it...and
> the lucky Norway people can live off their earning in eternity .....someone said you you create your own luck
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3736272.htm
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3736274.htm





Thanks for the links found this bit.



> PETER COSTELLO: During my time as Treasurer, the income which came from the mining industry and in fact from all companies came onto the Budget. The Budget was in surplus. The money was used to pay down debt, all Commonwealth debt and to set up a Future Fund. After I left office, the money which came out of even stronger terms of trade, came into the Budget was in deficit, nothing was put into the Future Fund. You made this point, you said "we could forgive the current government because they went through a financial crisis in 2008." The only point I would make it this: So did Norway, but Norway kept on saving.
> 
> EMMA ALBERICI: *Norway puts 78 per cent tax on its oil and gas companies?*
> 
> PETER COSTELLO: OK. Norway kept on saving throughout 2008, 2009, 2010. Australia...
> 
> EMMA ALBERICI: Your side of politics vehemently opposed any specific tax that would help Australians benefit from the mining boom?


----------



## drsmith

I didn't think that 730 interview was a particularly good performance from Peter Costello. There was little depth in his analysis of the GFC in particular.

To be completely honest, he would also have to be critical of the fiscal strategy of the latter years of the Howard Government as well.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Didn't they try something like this before ?



Yes.  When it was announced there was an enthusiastic embracing of such a wonderful notion by the Left.
People rushed to apply.  The last I heard about it was around a month or so ago when apparently only four people were still hosting 'guests'.


----------



## db94

drsmith said:


> They're not brave enough to hit the mainstream in the lead up to an election.
> 
> Capping tax breaks self education expenses strikes me as sound in principal. At the very least, the justification for it being uncapped need to be reviewed. A cap on negative gearing should also be considered.
> 
> With *clawing back scholarship money*, it will be interesting to see if it's retrospective.
> 
> It will also be interesting to see the extent to which it impacts on this,
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is as always with this government. It's just another desperate money grab to shore up our failing budget position.




with the changes, scholarships arent even technically scholarships! theyre just loans. As a uni student in my first year, im glad im not going to uni next year lol


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Yes.  When it was announced there was an enthusiastic embracing of such a wonderful notion by the Left.
> People rushed to apply.  The last I heard about it was around a month or so ago when apparently only four people were still hosting 'guests'.




Yes Julia, you are right. I was just about to post the same figure.

I would suggest that every Green and Labor Party politicians set an example by taking in at least one illegal refugee.

I will send an email to Gillard and O'Connor with my suggestion.


----------



## explod

noco said:


> Yes Julia, you are right. I was just about to post the same figure.
> 
> I would suggest that every Green and Labor Party politicians set an example by taking in at least one illegal refugee.
> 
> I will send an email to Gillard and O'Connor with my suggestion.




With a few acres of fertile ground on the rainbelt of the tropics you could give me a team of a dozen and we would prosper.


----------



## noco

explod said:


> With a few acres of fertile ground on the rainbelt of the tropics you could give me a team of a dozen and we would prosper.




Go for it plod, Jools will give you a MILLION if you tell her you are a rusted on supporter.

She is still borrowing $100,000,000 each day so it would be easy to get $1,000,000.

I dare you to try.


----------



## MrBurns

Watched the celebrations in Britain after Thatchers death, astonishing really, champagne in the streets and so on then realised we'll probably see the same thing here on Sept 14th.


----------



## Julia

explod said:


> With a few acres of fertile ground on the rainbelt of the tropics you could give me a team of a dozen and we would prosper.



You don't have to be in the tropics, explod.  How about putting your hand up for having a few asylum seekers in your present countryside situation?
I'm sure the government could come up with a few caravans and you could take it from there.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Watched the celebrations in Britain after Thatchers death, astonishing really, champagne in the streets and so on then realised we'll probably see the same thing here on Sept 14th.



The situation is quite different.  Ms Gillard is still very much alive.  It's therefore not in bad taste if anyone were to celebrate her losing government, if that's what happens.
Totally different when someone dies.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> The situation is quite different.  Ms Gillard is still very much alive.  It's therefore not in bad taste if anyone were to celebrate her losing government, if that's what happens.
> Totally different when someone dies.




What I was getting at was people will be glad she's out, some might even celebrate.


----------



## MrBurns

Support now below 30% can't post more as on iPhone but that says it all really Labor are in caretaker mode and should do nothing until the election
They have no mandate left at all


----------



## Julia

The latest Nielsen poll has the Gillard government falling below 30% for the first time.



> Today's Nielsen poll, published in Fairfax papers, shows support for Labor slipping below 30 per cent for the first time in 10 months.
> 
> The poll puts Labor's primary vote down two points at 29 per cent, while support for the Coalition has risen two points to 49 per cent.
> 
> On a two party-preferred basis, the Coalition is ahead on 57 per cent, while Labor sits at 43 per cent.
> 
> Opposition leader Tony Abbott leads Julia Gillard in the preferred prime minister stakes 50 per cent to 42 per cent.
> 
> It is the first time Labor's primary vote has slipped below 30 per cent since June 2012, before the carbon tax was introduced.
> 
> The poll follows a big week for Ms Gillard, who has also announced a strategic partnership deal with China and an overhaul of Australia's superannuation system.
> 
> Fifty-two per cent of those polled opposed the superannuation changes, despite the Government saying they would only affect about 16,000 of Australia's top earners.




Above from ABC Radio.

I'm surprised.  Judging by most reaction to both parties' NBN plans and the apparently successful trip to China, I thought she'd get a lift in opinion.
Perhaps the Coalition's more realistic and conservative approach to spending money is more appealing to the electorate?


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Support now below 30% can't post more as on iPhone but that says it all really Labor are in caretaker mode and should do nothing until the election
> They have no mandate left at all




Below 30% - who would have thought!

It's time for Labor to stab someone in the back again.


----------



## Tink

I am not surprised Julia, as said, I dont know anyone that will be voting for them. 
Alot are concerned.
I think it will be a landslide come September, my opinion.

I was also glad to hear Howard is going to the funeral...


----------



## MrBurns

I've said it before and I'll say it again, just saw Gillard on Ch9, she laughs off the polls just laughs them off, she's flipped, I really think she's a bit crazy. No normal person could brush that aside.


----------



## sptrawler

The lataest polls just show what we've been saying for ages, most people are fed up to their back teeth, with this self serving lot.
The biggest stuff up was going down the path of demonising the middle class, dumb 'pommie politics, that doesn't cut it in an aspirational society.
The polls will get progressively worse. IMO The main reason is her percieved contempt for middle Australia, which just happens to be where most want to get to.
This is the thing in Australia, most people who want to work hard and sacrifice, can attain a good standard of living. 
This doesn't happen in the U.K because everyone is stuck in their 'box' and the system doesn't let them get out.IMO
McTernan has blown Gillards feet off. Unfortunately her support of the middle class attack shows how out oftouch she is. Dumb

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...point-about-class-warfare-20130414-2htrn.html

Relying on welfare recipients and unionist votes to win an election, won't work. 
It is the same as if Libs tried to win an election, by pandering to the elite at the expense of the middle class. They will get hammered, as was proven when Howard was thrown out over work choices.

IMO She's toast, 'dead man walking' the more she attacks peoples dreams and aspirations the more she goes down the toilet.


----------



## bunyip

MrBurns said:


> What I was getting at was people will be glad she's out, some might even celebrate.






I'll be one of them. My neighbor down the road makes a mean home brew white rum....we're planning on sinking a few to celebrate the departure of Gillard and her nest of socialist snakes. 
In the unlikely event of her winning, well, we'll have a few to drown our sorrows.

Had to smile when I heard the media referring to Gillard's education plans as an 'education revolution'. Reminds me of the Rudd days when he talked about his 'education revolution', then he and Gillard proceeded to blow 20 thousand million dollars on overpriced and mostly unneeded school buildings. And since then our education standards have seriously gone down hill. Some 'revolution' that was!
Now the clowns want to have a second crack at it by gouging unis to the tune of almost 3 billion to fund their grandiose plans.
The dough they wasted on the last attempt would have paid for their current education plans ten times over without needing to raid uni funding.

What a great government we have - always robbing Peter to pay Paul because their reckless spending has run the coffers dry.
Of all their crazy money wasting debacles, the one that annoys me most is their complete stuff up of border protection – not only has it cost many billions of dollars and growing, but it’s also saddled us with many thousands of people whose religions and values and cultures are largely incompatible with our own.   
Here’s a short video that sums it up pretty well.

http://www.2gb.com/article/new-australian-anthem


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, just saw Gillard on Ch9, she laughs off the polls just laughs them off, she's flipped, I really think she's a bit crazy. No normal person could brush that aside.




No MrBurns, she has to do that, to stop her party turning on her. If she blinks and shows a hint of doubt in herself, they will turn on her like a pack of jackals.IMO


----------



## DocK

MrBurns said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, just saw Gillard on Ch9, she laughs off the polls just laughs them off, she's flipped, I really think she's a bit crazy. No normal person could brush that aside.






sptrawler said:


> No MrBurns, she has to do that, to stop her party turning on her. If she blinks and shows a hint of doubt in herself, they will turn on her like a pack of jackals.IMO




Makes me thing along these lines:


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> No MrBurns, she has to do that, to stop her party turning on her. If she blinks and shows a hint of doubt in herself, they will turn on her like a pack of jackals.IMO




I think those behind her are so weak they wouldn't know to replace her any more, she's depleted her front bench to a bunch of eunuchs who hang on her every word.

Watch when she gets cornered, her bottom lip juts out, I think she's unbalanced.


----------



## Calliope

> The agreement to hold annual face-to-face meetings with Premier Li Keqiang and a pledge of co-operation on climate change, together with international aid and currency trading,* place Australia in the inner circle of China's bilateral relationships*.



The Chinese are pragmatists. They know that Gillard is "dead man walking" and that any bilateral deal they made will only come into fruition under a Coalition government.

They do not deal with losers.

Obviously the electorate knows this...hence her bad polling.


----------



## pixel

I just received a letter from my old mate Cicero. Postal services from Italy are a bit slow, but after 2068 years, it's finally been delivered. As not everybody is still fluent in Latin, I've taken the liberty to translate it:



> The budget must be balanced, the Treasury refilled,
> public debt must be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom tempered and controlled,
> and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest we ourselves will become bankrupt.
> 
> *People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance.*
> 
> - Cicero , 55 BC




Seems we've learned sfa in 200 years...


----------



## sptrawler

pixel said:


> I just received a letter from my old mate Cicero. Postal services from Italy are a bit slow, but after 2068 years, it's finally been delivered. As not everybody is still fluent in Latin, I've taken the liberty to translate it:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems we've learned sfa in 200 years...




Classic pixel.


----------



## Aussiejeff

pixel said:


> I just received a letter from my old mate Cicero. Postal services from Italy are a bit slow, but after 2068 years, it's finally been delivered. As not everybody is still fluent in Latin, I've taken the liberty to translate it:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems we've learned sfa in 200 years...




I'll 2nd that!

Dejavu???


----------



## Some Dude

Aussiejeff said:


> Dejavu???




In more ways than most people will know. To quote the great Abraham Lincoln, "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet".


----------



## Country Lad

Some Dude said:


> "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet".




This part is true:

"The arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome fall."

The rest is embellishment which has been doing the rounds for years.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## drsmith

The latest Essential Media poll shows a slight recovery for Labor with 2PP 55/45 in favour of the Coalition.

Interestingly, the response to Labor's proposed super changes was more negative than positive.

The Coalition's NBN plan has gone down like a lead balloon, but that hasn't translated much into 2PP vote for Labor.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## Some Dude

Country Lad said:


> "The arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome fall."




As they say, some things never change...



			
				Cicero on what was known as Fibre-To-The-Parchment back then said:
			
		

> for it is the privilege of rhetoricians to exceed the truth of history, that they may have an opportunity of embellishing the fate of their heroes




Latin (42) for the perverse, translation.


----------



## drsmith

What is Peter Garrett's heart rate ?

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3737568.htm


----------



## Julia

I used to think Wayne Swan was Labor's most frenetic spokesperson, but Garrett last night looked and sounded as though he was about to combust!  Just awful, awful delivery, never mind the inadequate content.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> I used to think Wayne Swan was Labor's most frenetic spokesperson, but Garrett last night looked and sounded as though he was about to combust!  Just awful, awful delivery, never mind the inadequate content.




Just another absolute joke, for the first time in my life I feel nauseous just thinking about a government.
Occasionally I used to get anoyed with individual pollies, but I've never felt so much anger toward a whole party before.
It must be how it feels when you live under a regime, that gives you feel despair and hopelesness, anger and frustration just builds up.
Come on September.
I read today Bowen is writing a book, it must be to appologise, for the state his lot have left the Labor Party in.

People say the polls can't get worse, watch this space, my call is they will continue to slide as the divisive manner of Gillard cranks up.
Notice how she is now making quick statements then stepping back, to let ministers wear it. This is the next morph, not long back nobody could get a word in over her.
Obviously McTernan has told her to get behind the barricades.


----------



## Boggo

Post removed due to content being incorrect !


----------



## Country Lad

From Hoax Slayer

_*Misleading and Inaccurate Diatribe - 'Toning Down' Anzac Day 2015*

*Outline*
Bitter and inflammatory political diatribe claims that Australia's Federal government is intent on toning down the Anzac Day 2015 centenary because the event may offend immigrants to Australia.

*Brief Analysis*
The claims in the message are misleading and inaccurate. A Department of Veterans’ Affairs study to determine community attitudes about Anzac Day raised concerns about inappropriate behaviour among some Anzac Day event participants. It also warned of potential problems resulting from Australia's multicultural makeup. However, Prime Minister Gillard has publicly rejected the report's criticisms. 

The Gillard government is not in any way attempting to "tone down" Anzac Day. Nor was the purpose of the study in any way related to questioning the need for having Anzac Day as claimed. Moreover, the message was not written by RAAF Association QLD State President John Carlile as claimed. Mr Carlile has stated that he did not write the piece, nor did he attach his name to it or even forward it. Sending on false and misleading information of this nature is counterproductive and un-Australian.
_
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/anzac-day-2015.shtml


----------



## Boggo

Country Lad said:


> From Hoax Slayer
> 
> _*Misleading and Inaccurate Diatribe - 'Toning Down' Anzac Day 2015*
> 
> *Outline*
> Bitter and inflammatory political diatribe claims that Australia's Federal government is intent on toning down the Anzac Day 2015 centenary because the event may offend immigrants to Australia.
> 
> *Brief Analysis*
> The claims in the message are misleading and inaccurate. A Department of Veterans’ Affairs study to determine community attitudes about Anzac Day raised concerns about inappropriate behaviour among some Anzac Day event participants. It also warned of potential problems resulting from Australia's multicultural makeup. However, Prime Minister Gillard has publicly rejected the report's criticisms.
> 
> The Gillard government is not in any way attempting to "tone down" Anzac Day. Nor was the purpose of the study in any way related to questioning the need for having Anzac Day as claimed. Moreover, the message was not written by RAAF Association QLD State President John Carlile as claimed. Mr Carlile has stated that he did not write the piece, nor did he attach his name to it or even forward it. Sending on false and misleading information of this nature is counterproductive and un-Australian.
> _
> http://www.hoax-slayer.com/anzac-day-2015.shtml




I have removed the post CL, it looked genuine !


----------



## Julia

Country Lad said:


> From Hoax Slayer
> 
> _*Misleading and Inaccurate Diatribe - 'Toning Down' Anzac Day 2015*_



_
This rubbish arrived in my email inbox a couple of weeks ago.  The friend who forwarded it was quickly disabused of its truthfulness.
In the extremely unlikely event something like this did emanate from the government, the news media would be all over it long before it was being widely circulated on the net.

Boggo, if you're going to remove something, just saying you have removed a post seems a bit pointless, doesn't it?  Why not just remove it and say nothing or post an explanation of what the message was and why it was removed?_


----------



## Some Dude

Boggo said:


> Post removed due to content being incorrect !




Kudos Boggo.


----------



## drsmith

I wonder whether they also slipped one in for the carbon tax,

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/04/16/1226622/038726-130417-mining-tax.pdf

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...r-not-is-at-hand/story-fn59nsif-1226622059073


----------



## Calliope

As I've said previously it's a case of *the bad tenant trashing the joint *before getting kicked out.

As Paul Kelly says on Gonski;


> If Gillard prevails it will be yet another case of an Abbott government spending years (think two terms) implementing Gillard school policies. Julia’s shadow will remain long after she leaves the stage in any September election defeat””witness the National Disability Insurance Scheme plus Gonski.




Plus the huge waste being incurred by the inefficient NBN Co. Fortunately the Turnbull plan will mitigate some of this one.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Fortunately the Turnbull plan will mitigate some of this one.



Another article on the NBN from the AFR, this time about the government rejecting recommendations on the deal with Telstra from one its own financial advisors.



> A broad range of advice was prepared by senior Lazard bankers, including chief executive John Wylie, for cabinet before the deal was signed in June 2011. It is understood these two recommendations were rejected.
> 
> “This was a political project and a political decision was made to push ahead as quickly as possible,” said one source. “This was not a project about commercial outcomes. It was about political outcomes.”






> Didn’t trigger alarm bells
> 
> Their recollection was that the Lazard advice was not a very firm recommendation, and that it had not triggered any particularly strong alarm bells from central agencies like Treasury and the Department of Finance, or strong red lights to cabinet ministers.
> 
> “It was more along the lines of, ‘Well we don’t know what the world would look like in 30 years’ time’ ”, one source said. “It sounded like an ****-covering exercise to me so that if it ever went bad, their recommendation was sufficiently highly qualified as not to raise redress issues.”




http://www.afr.com/p/business/companies/cabinet_too_soft_on_nbn_deal_say_S64I7vQGlNk1JddUdutR7O


----------



## DB008

Calliope said:


> As I've said previously it's a case of *the bad tenant trashing the joint *before getting kicked out.
> 
> As Paul Kelly says on Gonski;
> 
> 
> Plus the huge waste being incurred by the inefficient NBN Co. Fortunately the Turnbull plan will mitigate some of this one.




I think this is an important issue I may have overlooked in my previous statement about the NBN.

If the purse is empty, how will stuff get done. You can't have a champagne lifestyle on a cask wine budget. The hangover will be terrible. Maybe the Libs NBN approach is the right one to take because the kitty has well and truly been spent.


----------



## sptrawler

DB008 said:


> I think this is an important issue I may have overlooked in my previous statement about the NBN.
> 
> If the purse is empty, how will stuff get done. You can't have a champagne lifestyle on a cask wine budget. The hangover will be terrible. Maybe the Libs NBN approach is the right one to take because the kitty has well and truly been spent.




I'm sure when the actual current accounts are realised, it will be horrendous, I think there may be a huge political backlash.
One wonders if there hasn't been a degree of political supression and that's only from a plebs perspective.

It will be interesting, but the amount of itchy bums wanting to get off the front bench, is a huge worry. 

I reckon it's absolutely out of control, just watch the panic if the goons get back in, it would be classic comedy "panic hour".


----------



## sptrawler

Can the government do anything right?

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...cash-to-leave-budget-hole-20130417-2i0ml.html


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Can the government do anything right?
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...cash-to-leave-budget-hole-20130417-2i0ml.html



Former board member of the RBA Warwick McKibbin wasn't backward in coming forward with is views yesterday.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3739451.htm

The Opposition has also responded,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ost-to-save-20bn/story-e6frg6xf-1226622978039

Greg Hunt today,

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...cash-to-leave-budget-hole-20130417-2i0ml.html


----------



## drsmith

It will be interesting to see how this little spat between the Queensland Treasurer Tim Nicholls and Wayne Swan over flood recovery money plays out,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-qld-floods-debt/story-fn3dxiwe-1226623339178


----------



## sptrawler

Doc, IMO this government has been nothing more than economic vandals, whose main driver has been personal.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/bu...389/goyder-says-global-carbon-pricing-needed/

How long ago were you, smurph and others saying exactly what Goyden is saying.
Also before the goons jump in and say Goyden has a vested interest, yes he actually cares. 
Westfarmers are Australian are building on Australia and I wished I had shares in them.


----------



## bellenuit

sptrawler said:


> Doc, IMO this government has been nothing more than economic vandals, whose main driver has been personal.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/bu...389/goyder-says-global-carbon-pricing-needed/
> 
> How long ago were you, smurph and others saying exactly what Goyden is saying.
> Also before the goons jump in and say Goyden has a vested interest, yes he actually cares.
> Westfarmers are Australian are building on Australia and I wished I had shares in them.




I don't know why Goyden doesn't just agree with the coalition and demand that the carbon tax be dumped. Obviously setting the carbon price to what Europe is paying would not put Australia at a disadvantage relative to Europe and at under $4/tonne would have little impact compared to the current $23, but remember the $23 was just a stepping stone to a much higher figure. I think the Greens, not that I would put much credence in what they say, estimated that the price would have to be $50+ before it would have a measurable effect on emissions and that was with most high polluting countries participating. So why not stop the pretence and just send it to the scrap heap. It is just one more Labor party policy implementation failure.


----------



## drsmith

A new and growing tribute to Julia Gillard and her government.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNl_vmWxfBo5ySCuKS_RNfA/videos


----------



## sptrawler

Does anyone think we need a Keating moment "A recession we have to have" Dumbo and the goons won't call it.

But can we keep maintaining, climbing house prices, low interest rates supporting the house prices and the high Aussie$.

Somethings got to give.IMO


----------



## Logique

_Emily’s List would never have chosen Thatcher_ - Miranda Devine - Sunday, April 14, 2013



> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...dailytelegraph/comments/a_woman_of_substance/
> 
> Once she [Gillard] made it into parliament in 1998, EMILY’S List continued to do Gillard’s dirty work.
> 
> For instance, in 2004 *leaked EMILY’s List polling found fault with then deputy Labor leader Jenny Macklin*, claiming she was “failing to cut through”.
> 
> Surprise, surprise, it rated Gillard as parliament’s top performer. *Soon enough, Gillard had Macklin’s job*.



Sound familiar, I bet it does to Kevin Rudd.


----------



## drsmith

Paul Kelly insights on the nature of the current relationship between Labor and the unions,



> Gillard is more dependent on trade union support to sustain her leadership than any Labor prime minister in the past 60 years. It is extraordinary that this power nexus is flaunted and advertised to the public. None of this helps Gillard.
> 
> While the ACTU leadership backed Hawke against Bill Hayden in the 1983 leadership contest, Hawke's authority in the caucus was far less union-dependent than that of Gillard.
> 
> The problem is not trade union influence as such. That is essential in any Labor government. Union influence can be mobilised for good or bad results. The problem under Gillard Labor is that government and unions have failed to strike a constructive partnership that delivers a stronger ALP government.
> 
> On the contrary, they are devouring each other.
> 
> The unions, with Tony Abbott's likely victory in their sights, seek to lock in future gains. Gillard, as her support in the nation falls, clings to unions as a survival strategy. That weakens the government and party.
> 
> As union coverage in the workplace declines (to 14 per cent in the private sector), union influence only grows within the Labor Party.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...a-gillard-weaker/story-e6frg74x-1226624747248


----------



## drsmith

Budget updates from Wayne Swan are never good. 



> Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan has revealed the budget has taken a $7.5 billion hit since the end of October.




That puts it deep in the red.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-21/swan-blames-high-aussie-dollar-for-revenue-write-down/4641826


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Budget updates from Wayne Swan are never good.
> 
> 
> 
> That puts it deep in the red.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-21/swan-blames-high-aussie-dollar-for-revenue-write-down/4641826



Just absolute goons.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ake-75b-hit-swan/story-e6freuz0-1226625237875

No, lets just throw more money at everything.lol

Jeez it would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Blind freddy could see the problem we have, a high dollar that the RBA can't control, because if they drop the interest rates, house prices keep climbing.

The Government just stands back and like a bunch of eunuchs and does nothing, absolute FW's


----------



## moXJO

Geeze all those calls that labor would send the country broke back in 2007 are looking closer to the mark then what the labor goon squad was squawking. Budget looks like a steaming pile.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Geeze all those calls that labor would send the country broke back in 2007 are looking closer to the mark then what the labor goon squad was squawking. Budget looks like a steaming pile.



During the election 2010 campaign, someone put up a Youtube video of what Australia would be like in 2020.

It highlighted a series of predictions in the context was one generation apologising to the next for voting Labor in 2010. Some of its predictions were a relationship between Labor and the Greens, a carbon tax and $1 trillion government debt.

---------------------------------------------------

The latest Essential Media poll maintains 2PP support as 55/45 in favour of the Coalition.

http://essentialvision.com.au/federal-politics-–-voting-intention-160

The response to Labor's school funding package has also been a net negative despite strong support continuing for the Gonski recommendations.


----------



## db94

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...e-to-cut-deficit/story-fn59nsif-1226628243372

bad news for the Gillard government. Of course this is only a warning, if S&P take the AAA rating away, expect an even larger landslide this election


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> The response to Labor's school funding package has also been a net negative despite strong support continuing for the Gonski recommendations.




People are starting to ask where all the money has gone. It's been like looking at a slow moving train wreck since 2009. Labor has attempted death by a thousand cuts to the economy, that we now have urgently bought forward the need for IR and tax reforms.
Tell you what, you invite labor to the party and the manage to pi$$ off all the guests, drink and eat all the food then $hit in the bed for good measure. Talk about the ability to ruin a good thing.


----------



## Logique

db94 said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...e-to-cut-deficit/story-fn59nsif-1226628243372
> bad news for the Gillard government. Of course this is only a warning, if S&P take the AAA rating away, expect an even larger landslide this election



Labor started 5 years ago with a surplus of $20Bill, now the AAA rating may be threatened. What have we got to show for it. Against the wall most of it.

A coup d'etat, looting of the treasury, the preaching of hatred and division, these things are the stuff of SBS documentaries, not possible in the Lucky Country, surely?


----------



## Calliope

moXJO said:


> People are starting to ask where all the money has gone. It's been like looking at a slow moving train wreck since 2009. Labor has attempted death by a thousand cuts to the economy, that we now have urgently bought forward the need for IR and tax reforms.
> Tell you what, you invite labor to the party and the manage to pi$$ off all the guests, drink and eat all the food then $hit in the bed for good measure. Talk about the ability to ruin a good thing.




Like all bad tenants they are deliberately trashing the joint before they are kicked out. They know they are finished. On their way out they will leave a trail of destruction, like economic vandals.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Like all bad tenants they are deliberately trashing the joint before they are kicked out. They know they are finished. On their way out they will leave a trail of destruction, like economic vandals.



Like they did with super tax increases before being rushed into an announcement, their now testing the water for an increase in the medicare levy to fund NDIS.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-disability-levy/story-fn3dxiwe-1226628391237


----------



## Logique

Miranda does it again. Re-read this before you head to the polls in Sept.



> Miranda Devine -Tuesday, April 23, 2013
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...aph/comments/timely_warning_of_danger_within/
> 
> ..A new ruling class of university-educated “progressives”, “sophisticates”, “elites” and “latte-sippers” have emerged as an un-Australian clique trying to lord it over everyone else. Controlling media, law, education and the political class..
> 
> ..The unintended consequence was the creation of an “intelligentsia with a narrower, more homogenous” outlook, marked by a “progressive world view, snobbery and self righteousness”.
> 
> The intellectual class has for almost half a century “misrepresented Australia’s history, misread its present, misjudged its people and projected a miserable vision of the future”, while maligning “patriotism as akin to racism”.
> 
> Australia is not a race or an ethnicity or a constitution. It is an idea, and thus exquisitely vulnerable to the narrative that is drawn for it..


----------



## noco

Poor old Richo. After 46 years as a member of the Labor Party he is now tearing his hair out in disappointment with his once faithful party.

Geez, he might even switch sides and join the liberals. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-look-even-worse/story-fnfenwor-1226629580019


----------



## noco

If what I read in the attached link is correct, I cannot see a budget surplus for the next 9 years.

This Green/Labor left wing socialist Government is leaving us with so much debt it will almost be impossible to attain a surplus in that time.

And they keep on spending like drunken sailers. OMG.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...aldsun/comments/spending_us_deeper_into_debt/


----------



## Aussiejeff

noco said:


> If what I read in the attached link is correct, I cannot see a budget surplus for the next 9 years.
> 
> This Green/Labor left wing socialist Government is leaving us with so much debt it will almost be impossible to attain a surplus in that time.
> 
> And they keep on spending like drunken sailers.* OMG.*
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...aldsun/comments/spending_us_deeper_into_debt/




*O*h *M*ighty *G*illard???


----------



## dutchie

Why does this government keep spending money it does not have?

The only reason I can see is that it wants to leave a "scorched earth" scenario to hamper the forthcoming Coalition Government.

This might be good for Labor in the future but is not good for Australia's future.

They just don't care.


----------



## Aussiejeff

drsmith said:


> Budget updates from Wayne Swan are never good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan has revealed the budget has taken a $7.5 billion hit since the end of October.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That puts it deep in the red.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-21/swan-blames-high-aussie-dollar-for-revenue-write-down/4641826
Click to expand...



**UPDATE**

Oopsies. OMG says make that *-$AU 12 Billion* - and counting.... http://www.news.com.au/national-new...after-fiscal-gap/story-fncynjr2-1226631143925

Awwww. Doncha feel sorry for 'em?


----------



## drsmith

I feel about as sorry for Labor as they do for the electorate as a whole under their government.


----------



## MrBurns

Labor are absolutely destroyed, I don't know how long it will take for them to come back from this.

The decision to axe Rudd was catastrophic, Gillard has been the worst thing to happen to Labor....well.....ever.

Makes one wonder about the boneheads that run that party, how inept and positively unworthy are the people behind the scenes in there ???

Labor has nothing left and more importantly no one to help them recover down the track.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Labor has nothing left and more importantly no one to help them recover down the track.



They still have a 7% rise in revenue this financial year despite the now estimated $12bn shortfall, but that revenue gain and the end deficit result only adds to the sense of their fiscal incompetence.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> They still have a 7% rise in revenue this financial year despite the now estimated $12bn shortfall, but that revenue gain and the end deficit result only adds to the sense of their fiscal incompetence.




Wayne Swan is looking increasingly and embarrassingly out of his depth, even to the average punter.


----------



## Knobby22

MrBurns said:


> Labor are absolutely destroyed, I don't know how long it will take for them to come back from this.




If the Libs govern properly you are looking at a generation. 4 elections terms. they have really blown it. I have to agree, Gillard really has been terrible for them. People say that women would be better than men in governing - and that may be true in places like India, GBR and New Zealand but when you look around at Australia's experience Carmen Lawrence, Joan Kirner (she was truly terrible) and now Julia Gillard I would have to say I would never vote for a female leader (especially on the Labor side) without getting a checkup from a psychologist.

People say that Thatcher did nothing for helping women become leaders but at least people can point to her as a success. Lawrence, Kirner and Gillard have set women back to the point where I am wondering whether they should vote women into parliament at all! think of some of the others, Cheryl Kernot, Natasha Party Destroyer, the list goes on. There was that female Lib MP who rigged the voting in her seat 2 elections ago also.  

A bit unfair I know, but it seems the ones that get to the top are the ones with the least capability. 

Other countries don't seem to suffer from this problem.


----------



## drsmith

Bearing in mind the ever sinking state of the federal budget, the following Fairfax poll on Gonski and NDIS is interesting,



> Poll: Should the government proceed with the NDIS and Gonski school reforms despite the growing shortfall in revenue?
> 
> Yes, such important reform is worth a short-term budget deficit
> 23%
> Yes, but only if they can find other savings in the budget to fund them
> 13%
> No, put them off until we can afford it
> 44%
> No, scrap them altogether
> 20%
> 
> Total votes: 4446.




The results might be even more skewed if the first option recognised that our budget deficit is likely to be a little more than short-term.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/loss-blows-12b-hole-in-budget-20130428-2imsv.html#poll




















Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...e-in-budget-20130428-2imsv.html#ixzz2RoF9aht8


----------



## moXJO

I have noticed the left media trying their hardest to spin labor into looking good. All the ex labor supporters seem to be out in force in the opinion pieces. 
Just noticed swan bringing out the farmers loan. This was a few years to late after they destroyed farmers with the knee jerk export ban. Yet another section the managed to destroy


----------



## McLovin

Finally, some reality. This is the first time either side has admitted that normal is where we are now, not where we were pre'07



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has said “urgent and grave” decisions need to be made at the May 14 budget and all sections of the community – business, families and institutions – will have to help share the burden.
> 
> Announcing a $12 billion write-down in company tax revenue since the last budget update in October, Ms Gillard said that revenue would not be replaced with spending cuts at the budget.
> 
> But she said the long-term, multibillion dollar investments in school funding reforms and the National Disability Insurance Scheme would be paid for by cuts, and “the burden of our decisions will be shared across the whole Australian community’’.
> 
> “Business, families, institutions. Everyone benefits so everyone contributes,’’ she told the Per Capita lunch in Canberra on Monday.
> 
> “Guiding us as we make these decisions is the key principle of burden sharing,’’ she said.
> 
> Ominously, Ms Gillard said “every reasonable option’’ was on the table, “even options previously taken off the table’’. This brings into play cuts to business tax concessions and family benefits, as well as tax increases.




http://www.afr.com/p/national/budget_burden_must_be_shared_by_iQ2tyboC2dBJKMolGNlIZM

Hopefully, with the government admitting it has been, to put it kindly, optimistic, Abbott can tone down the hollow rhetoric and we can actually get some sort of policy debate.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> Finally, some reality. This is the first time either side has admitted that normal is where we are now, not where we were pre'07
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.afr.com/p/national/budget_burden_must_be_shared_by_iQ2tyboC2dBJKMolGNlIZM
> 
> Hopefully, with the government admitting it has been, to put it kindly, optimistic, Abbott can tone down the hollow rhetoric and we can actually get some sort of policy debate.




So you mean now that Gillard can no longer hide the fact that they stuffed everything up, everyone must pay, how noble of her. Things must be even worse than we know now.
The budget will be a shocker , thanks Gillard you lying incompetent curse and Swan you ignorant dope.


----------



## McLovin

MrBurns said:


> So you mean now that Gillard can no longer hide the fact that they stuffed everything up, everyone must pay, how noble of her. Things must be even worse than we know now.
> The budget will be a shocker , thanks Gillard you lying incompetent curse and Swan you ignorant dope.




Nope. Just what I've been saying for ages on here. The budget was set to boom mode for too long (thanks to Rudd and Howard). It's finally being unwound to SNAFU mode.

Did Gillard make mistakes, absolutely! I think she and Swan will go down as the worst pair running the country since God knows when.


----------



## FlyingFox

McLovin said:


> Nope. Just what I've been saying for ages on here. The budget was set to boom mode for too long (thanks to Rudd and Howard). It's finally being unwound to SNAFU mode.
> 
> Did Gillard make mistakes, absolutely! I think she and Swan will go down as the worst pair running the country since God knows when.




+1.


----------



## drsmith

The latest Essential Media poll still has Labor in the pine box with no sign of a pulse. 

2PP unchanged at 55/45 in favour of the Coalition. 

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport

In relation to Labor's budget problems, one question that comes to mind is why Julia Gillard fronted the media today instead of Wayne Swan ?


----------



## bunyip

Gillard and Swan can blame falling revenue until the cows come home, but it’s the wasteful and irresponsible spending that has landed this Labor government in such a mess. They could have delivered a budget surplus in spite of the falling revenue if they hadn’t splashed money around with reckless abandon.
Just think of the dough they wasted....20 billion on overpriced and unnecessary school buildings alone (which Gillard herself presided over), the home insulation debacle, the boat people fiasco – and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Scores of billions of dollars.
A business manager who did what this Labor government has done would be sacked. Just like the Labor government will be in September. 

They haven’t even had enough brains to change their leader – a move that may have at least given them a slim hope of pulling off an election victory. Instead they seem intent on following Gillard over the cliff.

Never elect of bunch of unionists to run the country - they're just not up to the job.


----------



## bigdog

$12b Budget black hole

Gillard is blaming Treasury!!

Gillard and Swan provides the assumptions and policy to Treasury to calculate the forecasts!


----------



## MrBurns

bigdog said:


> $12b Budget black hole
> 
> Gillard is blaming Treasury!!
> 
> Gillard and Swan provides the assumptions and policy to Treasury to calculate the forecasts!




I really want to see the polls throw them even lower, they deserve it, but perhaps there's a floor under which it's hard to descend from..............


----------



## drsmith

> Imagine a wage earner, John, employed in the same job throughout the last 20 years.
> 
> For a period in 2003 to 2007 every year his employer gave him a sizeable bonus.
> He was grateful but in his bones knew it wouldn’t last.....




In Julia Gillard analogy, John's smarter than Labor, on more than one front.

John realises that a cash handout financed from the credit card has to be paid back some time, with interest. He also realises that pink bats and school halls don't grow on trees.

John wouldn't be foolish enough to sign up to long term recurrent subscription expenditure to be financed from gambling revenue. 

He wouldn't be silly enough to volunteer for a green energy premium on his electricity tariff while the credit card debt was spiralling out of control.

He wouldn't be paying money to the local feel good Green mafia to satisfy his conscience.

He also wouldn't be supporting an unrelated additional member in his home who has illegally paid someone else for that privilege.



> To respond to this temporary loss of income by selling his home and car, dropping his private health insurance, replacing every second evening meal with two-minute noodles.
> Of course not.
> 
> A rational response would be to make some responsible savings, to engage in some moderate borrowing, to get through to the time of higher income with his family and lifestyle intact and then to use the higher income to pay off the extra borrowing undertaken in the lean years.




Labor still doesn't get it. 

They expect unrealistic growth rates in revenue to return to support their wasteful expenditure.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/04/29/1226631/586812-130429-pms-revenue-shortfall-speech.pdf


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> ...Labor still doesn't get it.
> 
> They expect unrealistic growth rates in revenue to return to support their wasteful expenditure.
> 
> http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/04/29/1226631/586812-130429-pms-revenue-shortfall-speech.pdf





From the quote:



> A rational response would be to make some responsible savings, to engage in some moderate borrowing, to get through to the time of higher income with his family and lifestyle intact and then to use the higher income to pay off the extra borrowing undertaken in the lean years.




Lean years indicate a fall in revenue - agree Labor does not get it.  Revenue is fine - it's the out of control spending that's the problem.  Now it seems she will try to grab more taxes rather than curtail the spending.  Unbelievable...

Surely there should be some qualifications necessary to run the country.  It seems they have no idea.


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> Gillard and Swan can blame falling revenue until the cows come home, but it’s the wasteful and irresponsible spending that has landed this Labor government in such a mess. They could have delivered a budget surplus in spite of the falling revenue if they hadn’t splashed money around with reckless abandon.
> Just think of the dough they wasted....20 billion on overpriced and unnecessary school buildings alone (which Gillard herself presided over), the home insulation debacle, the boat people fiasco – and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Scores of billions of dollars.
> A business manager who did what this Labor government has done would be sacked. Just like the Labor government will be in September.
> 
> They haven’t even had enough brains to change their leader – a move that may have at least given them a slim hope of pulling off an election victory. Instead they seem intent on following Gillard over the cliff.
> 
> Never elect of bunch of unionists to run the country - they're just not up to the job.



Agree completely.
In addition, Gillard has set back eons the case for women in positions of power.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Agree completely.
> In addition, Gillard has set back eons the case for women in positions of power.




Agree... and I think there is nothing worse than a power hungry female who is not competent.

And, I believe gender does not matter if a person is competent.


----------



## dutchie

The ALP =  Economic Vandals


----------



## DB008

MrBurns said:


> Makes one wonder about the boneheads that run that party, how inept and positively unworthy are the people behind the scenes in there ???




This is what happens when you have Union officials elected to run a country.

No idea on priorities or business/economic sense, and 'spend spend spend' is their mantra.

The piggy bank has been emptied. And topping up of it will be hard to do (ie, MRRT). How the ALP can now go into election mode, and promise new policies with no money (ie, NDIS), goes to show how these people operate.


----------



## Aussiejeff

DB008 said:


> This is what happens when you have Union officials elected to run a country.
> 
> No idea on priorities or business/economic sense, and 'spend spend spend' is their mantra.
> 
> *The piggy bank has been emptied. And topping up of it will be hard to do* (ie, MRRT). How the ALP can now go into election mode, and promise new policies with no money (ie, NDIS), goes to show how these people operate.




Nah. Does not She Who Must Be Obeyed allude to 







> _"engage in some moderate borrowing"_



 in her speech?

Anybody old enough to remember how Gough's Guvmint tried to dig its way out of the financial hole it fell into when the A-rabs decided to hold the World to ransom in 1973-4? 

I'm sure JuLiar can find a long-lost rellie of Mr Khemlani somewhere in Paki-stain to do the back room deal?

Problem solvered....


----------



## dutchie

News release by Julia Gillard to the people of Australia:

My fellow Australians, the members of the Australian Labor Party wish to advise you that our team of ex-lawyers and ex-unionists have no idea of how to run a corner store let alone a countries’ economy. We have therefore adopted the policy of just spending (wasting) your money anyhow we want to.

Unfortunately over the last five years or so we have completely mismanaged everything we touched to the extent that we will make the future very tenuous for years to come. That is part of our proud legacy. (I’ll write a book about it later).

Now that the surplus budget that we promised you so fervently is being announced and because we want to be re-elected to serve you up the same ineptitude, it has been pointed out that the little money tree out the back has apparently disappeared and we realise we have spent too much of your money (that you don’t have ha ha).

We have been very busy for a long time announcing policies that we don’t carry out (we might have to learn how to do that at some stage in the future (maybe) and defending all the half backed policies that invariably are botched up) and did not realise that the books were in such a pathetic state.


We now release our brand new policy:

Australia it’s time to pay.




It's the right thing to do.


----------



## moXJO

What happened to labors lines about the economy being so good and that we "have never had it so good". Labor flipped pretty fast
 on all things being fantastic. I want to know how swans fudged figures were swallowed for so long. Well at least the finally got caught in an election year.


----------



## dutchie

PRIME MINISTER
ADDRESS TO PER CAPITA REFORM AGENDA SERIES
CANBERRA
29 APRIL 2013




“Once again, to break this complex picture down in to a personal story.
Imagine a wage earner, John, employed in the same job throughout the last 
20 years.
For a period in 2003 to 2007 every year his employer gave him a sizeable 
bonus.
He was grateful but in his bones knew it wouldn’t last. 
The bonuses did stop and John was told that his income would rise by around 
five per cent each year over the years to come.
That’s the basis for his financial plans.
Now, very late, John has been told he won’t get those promised increases for 
the next few years – but his income will get back up after that to where he was 
promised it would be.
What is John’s rational reaction?
To respond to this temporary loss of income by selling his home and car, 
dropping his private health insurance, replacing every second evening meal 
with two-minute noodles.
Of course not. 
A rational response would be to make some responsible savings, to engage in 
some moderate borrowing, to get through to the time of higher income with his 
family and lifestyle intact and then to use the higher income to pay off the 
extra borrowing undertaken in the lean years. “




OMG


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> PRIME MINISTER
> ADDRESS TO PER CAPITA REFORM AGENDA SERIES
> CANBERRA
> 29 APRIL 2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Once again, to break this complex picture down in to a personal story.
> Imagine a wage earner, John, employed in the same job throughout the last
> 20 years.
> For a period in 2003 to 2007 every year his employer gave him a sizeable
> bonus.
> He was grateful but in his bones knew it wouldn’t last.
> The bonuses did stop and John was told that his income would rise by around
> five per cent each year over the years to come.
> That’s the basis for his financial plans.
> Now, very late, John has been told he won’t get those promised increases for
> the next few years – but his income will get back up after that to where he was
> promised it would be.
> What is John’s rational reaction?
> To respond to this temporary loss of income by selling his home and car,
> dropping his private health insurance, replacing every second evening meal
> with two-minute noodles.
> Of course not.
> A rational response would be to make some responsible savings, to engage in
> some moderate borrowing, to get through to the time of higher income with his
> family and lifestyle intact and then to use the higher income to pay off the
> extra borrowing undertaken in the lean years. “
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG




Well at least she has proven who the economic simpleton is.lol


----------



## drsmith

Below, Michael Smith has put together a collection of AFR articles on Julia Gillard's budget speech yesterday and Labor's fiscal management. They speak for themselves.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ault-and-responsibility-of-julia-gillard.html

Larry Pickering's take,

http://pickeringpost.com/article/julias-imaginary-friend/1268


----------



## bigdog

*What our clowns said:*

You can't run this country if you can't manage its Budget.
- Gillard - April 2011

We're getting back into surplus in three years ... come hell or high water
- Swan - August 2010

I don't think it would  be responsible to cut harder or further in 2012-13 to fill a hole in the tax system ... if the worst thing people say is we got the economics right again but fell short on the politics ... so be it.
- Swan - December 2012


----------



## ROE

If labor is an ASX listed stock and make sort of forecast ...
The stock will be down more than 50% ...Chair woman Gillard and CEO Swan will get kicked out...


----------



## drsmith

ROE said:


> If labor is an ASX listed stock and make sort of forecast ...
> The stock will be down more than 50% ...Chair woman Gillard and CEO Swan will get kicked out...



It would be a penny dreadful with only die hards and union hacks on the register with it's primary activity being the mining of taxpayer's pockets through the sourcing of government monies to fund itself and its ideological nonsense.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> It would be a penny dreadful with only die hards and union hacks on the register with it's primary activity being the mining of taxpayer's pockets through the sourcing of government monies to fund itself and its ideological nonsense.




With the directors giving themselves bonuses, as they run the company into insolvency.


----------



## drsmith

If you've got some shopping tips, Wayne Swan wants to know what you've got to say.

Well, he did then.



If it's not fit for purpose, take it back and get it exchanged.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...lph-and-i-can-see-you-too-through-the-ma.html


----------



## Lone Wolf

dutchie said:


> Now, very late, John has been told he won’t get those promised increases for
> the next few years – but his income will get back up after that to where he was
> promised it would be.
> What is John’s rational reaction?





John realises that if the earlier forecast of 5% increase per year was inaccurate, then the forecast that his income will "get back up in a few years" may also be inaccurate. John's rational reaction is to reduce his expenditure to a sustainable level, thus enabling him to ride out the difficult years ahead. John is now prepared for the unexpected and has secured his family's future by ensuring they aren't crippled by heavy debt. Good work John.


----------



## sptrawler

Lone Wolf said:


> John realises that if the earlier forecast of 5% increase per year was inaccurate, then the forecast that his income will "get back up in a few years" may also be inaccurate. John's rational reaction is to reduce his expenditure to a sustainable level, thus enabling him to ride out the difficult years ahead. John is now prepared for the unexpected and has secured his family's future by ensuring they aren't crippled by heavy debt. Good work John.




Lone Wolf, aren't these goons a hoot. They say take on moderate debt and hope you can pay for it later.

Sounds like a Harvey Norman advert.lol

I suppose if the government debt just keeps blowing out, to a point we can't cope with. We can do what Greece, Portugal and the rest do and call on someone else to bail us out.
That would probably our neighbors, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.lol


----------



## drsmith

Latest Morgan poll has 2PP at 58%/42% in favour of the Coalition.

http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2013/4889/


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Latest Morgan poll has 2PP at 58%/42% in favour of the Coalition.
> 
> http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2013/4889/




Christ, at last the penny has dropped. Horray

I think I said a while back that things will go down for the government, the long election call was dumb as, things aren't getting better.

October last year was the best chance, they even blew that.lol


----------



## Miss Hale

sptrawler said:


> Lone Wolf, aren't these goons a hoot. They say take on moderate debt and hope you can pay for it later.
> 
> Sounds like a Harvey Norman advert.lol
> 
> I suppose if the government debt just keeps blowing out, to a point we can't cope with. We can do what Greece, Portugal and the rest do and call on someone else to bail us out.
> That would probably our neighbors, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.lol




That analogy has to be the worst one I have ever heard  Encouraging people to go into debt when they have a loss of income  The government has truly lost the plot.  I really wish September wasn't so far away.


----------



## sptrawler

Miss Hale said:


> That analogy has to be the worst one I have ever heard  Encouraging people to go into debt when they have a loss of income  The government has truly lost the plot.  I really wish September wasn't so far away.




Sadly, it explains the reason they are in the poo.

Also they want to get deeper in it.lol


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Latest Morgan poll has 2PP at 58%/42% in favour of the Coalition.
> 
> http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2013/4889/




This government is getting worse and worse and needs to be put out of it's misery. Now! Not in five months time.

The incompetence displayed by them is mind boggling, you could not write a believable Hollywood script.

Here we are with record, increased revenue and we have a huge deficit and nation destroying debt. And its all Abbott's or China's or "anybody else but them" fault.

They have not got a clue.

If they end up with 2% of the vote I'll be surprised because they don't even deserve that!


----------



## Aussiejeff

....and the Money Train keeps a'rollin' alongggggg......



> TAXPAYERS are facing a *lavish election-year advertising campaign of up to $50 million to promote Julia Gillard's Gonski school reforms* - despite NSW being the only state to embrace the $14.5 billion funding overhaul.





http://www.news.com.au/national-new...gn/story-fnho52ip-1226632600044#ixzz2Rz9orQEV

Check the headline photo. Does Bazza look like he has been well and truly shafted or what? 

JuLiar looks like the cat licking the cream....


----------



## bunyip

Good interview with Peter Costello on ABC 7.30 program last night – it really lays bare how the outrageous spending of the ALP government has landed them in such a mess. 
The first couple of minutes of the interview are about the Queensland government, but then it gets on to issues relating to the debt situation created by federal Labor.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3748704.htm


----------



## bigdog

*ABC television Mondays 9.35pm ABC 1, repeated Tuesdays 12.30pm

The next Q&A Panel Ask a Question in on Monday, 6 May 2013 and includes Julia Gillard - Prime Minister of Australia on the panel*

*Suggest that we all send lots of questions using the ABC website [Ask a Question] tab.*

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/


----------



## bunyip

bigdog said:


> *ABC television Mondays 9.35pm ABC 1, repeated Tuesdays 12.30pm
> 
> The next Q&A Panel Ask a Question in on Monday, 6 May 2013 and includes Julia Gillard - Prime Minister of Australia on the panel*
> 
> *Suggest that we all send lots of questions using the ABC website [Ask a Question] tab.*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/




I'm surprised that she agreed to be on the panel - I imagine she'll get some hard questions.


----------



## Ijustnewit

bunyip said:


> I'm surprised that she agreed to be on the panel - I imagine she'll get some hard questions.




I doubt she will get any hard questions , it will be the usual stitch up and any detractors will be shut down before they can say anything against Labor .


----------



## Miss Hale

bunyip said:


> I'm surprised that she agreed to be on the panel - I imagine she'll get some hard questions.




It's not actually a panel though, she will be there by herself.  Much easier to control the direction of the discussion that way.  She's been on before and she was on her own then too. It will all be carefully stage managed I expect.


----------



## moXJO

Lets face it NDIS is just another labor smokescreen to divert attention.


----------



## wayneL




----------



## IFocus

Abbott will be on next week...............not


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Abbott will be on next week...............not



Increasing the Medicare levy ??

That's your feathers they want to pluck too.



moXJO said:


> Lets face it NDIS is just another labor smokescreen to divert attention.



They've gone insane.

The funny thing about this is that the Coalition doesn't have to do anything. Tony Abbott can just sit back and watch Labor flounder on the beach.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Increasing the Medicare levy ??
> 
> That's your feathers they want to pluck too.
> 
> 
> They've gone insane.
> 
> The funny thing about this is that the Coalition doesn't have to do anything. Tony Abbott can just sit back and watch Labor flounder on the beach.




I was at a small business owners factory unit today, he was going balistic about Gillard and Labor.

The sad thing is he is going bankrupt, after being in the business since 1980, apparently he has never seen things this bad.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> The sad thing is he is going bankrupt, after being in the business since 1980, apparently he has never seen things this bad.



The greatest damage they are doing with all their mad political jumping around could well be in the economic confidence of the public at large.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> The greatest damage they are doing with all their mad political jumping around could well be in the economic confidence of the public at large.




Exactly doc, we've been saying it for years. 
People aren't spending because they have no faith in the governments ability to manage.
Therefore you have the majority of people forever expecting and preparing for the worst.
It becomes a self fullfilling prophecy, that has been brought on by a pathetic government. 
They have focused on staying in power, rather than focusing on providing stable government with policies based on well thought out ideas.
No, what we have is add hock policy, band aid tax grabs, headline grabbing sexist rants. Minority parties and independents holding the country to ransom for their personal agendas.
No one has been at wheel, since Kev was chucked out for poor driving.lol

Australia is so over Labor, it will be a nasty night in September.lol


----------



## bigdog

http://www.bigpondmoney.com.au/seven-deadly-gillard-sins

*Seven deadly Gillard sins*
Updated: 4:48:59 PM, Wednesday May 01, 2013

By Robert Gottliebsen
First published 30 April in Business Spectator

*Seven deadly Gillard sins*

From poor business relations to IR blunders, Julia Gillard’s mistakes have revealed unfortunate similarities to Kevin Rudd.

If the only mistake the Gillard government had made was creating a deficit out of yet another set of bad Treasury numbers then the likely next prime minister, Tony Abbott, and his looming treasurer Joe Hockey would face a straightforward task.

But the current government’s mistakes go much deeper and will require an entirely different approach. This morning I will list my seven deadly Gillard economic sins and invite readers to comment and add to them via conversation. Tomorrow I will list the actions Tony Abbott must consider with the same invitation to readers.

*Sin number one* is rarely mentioned in mainstream commentary: A dedicated and vicious campaign against small business, which is the main private employment creating sector of the economy. This was done via the Australian tax office which attacked small operators and refused to give many ABN numbers. Thousands of complex but useless regulations were introduced at the same time as the Gillard government promoted union dominated industrial relations laws that were designed for large business and made staff flexibility in small business much tougher. Independent contracting was actively discouraged.

*Sin number two:* Actively fan the greatest government employment binge in Australia’s history. As the above link pointed out, the Institute of Public Affairs estimates that since the global financial crisis public sector industries have lifted their employment by 406,000. In fairness, not all the 406,000 people are employed by Canberra by increasing regulation, red tape, state government requirements and duplication, but the Gillard government was the main driver.

*Sin number three:* Allowed the export of gas from Queensland, which under present extraction rules we did not have. Some of the export gas will now come from gas that was earmarked for Sydney and will help send NSW and later Victorian and Queensland domestic gas prices sky-high. The higher gas prices will be further boosted by actions of the NSW government. It’s a total mess (Leaky gas progress could lead to a NSW exodus, April 16).

*Sin number four:* Encourage the return of cartel-style agreements between big builders and building unions in the commercial building sector sending the cost of building the new mines and government projects up substantially (Lend Lease and Leighton need a new toolkit, April 8).

*Sin number five:* Pay no need heed to productivity in health. It’s all about handing out money. Rising heath expenditure is a key underlining reason for the deficits.

*Sin number six:* Decide to be completely remote from business. Treasury took the same view. As a result Canberra had no idea what was happening in the business arena (particularly in mining) and most of the treasury business forecasts were wrong. Worse still, they spent the money that they incorrectly anticipated receiving. The strategy was modelled on the Keystone Kops.

*Sin number seven:* Carbon was another Keystone Kops style fiasco. The Gillard government saddled Australia with an uncompetitive carbon price at the same time as a high dollar and rising electricity prices. They used much of the carbon money for social welfare and then later effectively slashed future carbon revenue, but did not cut back the spending. The carbon mess had little effect on emissions.

One of the reasons why so many big mistakes were made was that Julia Gillard turned out to be another Kevin Rudd. Rudd could not run a cabinet and Gillard’s supporters thought this would be her greatest asset. Instead she followed the Rudd decision making process on too many occasions.


----------



## bunyip

Ijustnewit said:


> I doubt she will get any hard questions , it will be the usual stitch up and any detractors will be shut down before they can say anything against Labor .






Miss Hale said:


> It's not actually a panel though, she will be there by herself.  Much easier to control the direction of the discussion that way.  She's been on before and she was on her own then too. It will all be carefully stage managed I expect.




Yes, you're both probably right. 

And even if she did cop a hard question or two, she's pretty adept at brushing them off and putting a positive spin on things. 
Fortunately the public has woken up to her and no longer believes what she says.


----------



## Country Lad

bunyip said:


> .................she's pretty adept at brushing them off and putting a positive spin on things.




I won't be watching it but if someone who is wants to make it more interesting, please count the number of times she says:

1 Mr Abbott
2 It's the right thing to do

and let us know the score.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Calliope

Leigh Sales exposes Swan for the fool that he is. I have a feeling that Sales won't be long in this job when she is starting to ask Labor some hard questions.

[video]http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3749648.htm#[/video]


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Leigh Sales exposes Swan for the fool that he is. I have a feeling that Sales won't be long in this job when she is starting to ask Labor some hard questions.
> 
> [video]http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3749648.htm#[/video]




He's still in Wayne's World,



> WAYNE SWAN: When you operate a medium-term fiscal strategy, where you want to have surpluses on average over the cycle, you've actually got to match those structural spends with structural saves and that's the discipline that the Government is applying.


----------



## waza1960

> Leigh Sales exposes Swan for the fool that he is. I have a feeling that Sales won't be long in this job when she is starting to ask Labor some hard questions.




  Maybe she's not as biased after all . Or maybe after interviewing Costello she realises what a fool Swan really is


----------



## Logique

waza1960 said:


> Maybe she's not as biased after all . Or maybe after interviewing Costello she realises what a fool Swan really is



Costello stood out like a beacon didn't he, like a lighthouse in a storm. It's a bumpy sea atm, and rogue waves.


----------



## dutchie

Using disabled people for political gain. How low can she go?

Not only is she incompetent but she's nasty too.


----------



## Julia

waza1960 said:


> Maybe she's not as biased after all . Or maybe after interviewing Costello she realises what a fool Swan really is



She was appropriately tough on Swan.  He seemed quite shocked.



Logique said:


> Costello stood out like a beacon didn't he, like a lighthouse in a storm. It's a bumpy sea atm, and rogue waves.



A wave of nostalgia swept over me watching his interview.  How different the political landscape would be today if he were still there.  He even had her laughing with him at the end.

And to think that we criticised him because of his smirk.


----------



## wayneL

Julia said:


> A wave of nostalgia swept over me watching his interview.  How different the political landscape would be today if he were still there.  He even had her laughing with him at the end.
> 
> And to think that we criticised him because of his smirk.




Australia's loss. I'm still sh!tty with Howard for not standing aside when he should have. :frown:


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Australia's loss. I'm still sh!tty with Howard for not standing aside when he should have. :frown:




Fact is he never had the support of the party room.........he was never a real leader, wasn't a stayer  and he never had courage Howard probably got it right.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Fact is he never had the support of the party room.........he was never a real leader, wasn't a stayer  and he never had courage Howard probably got it right.




+1 had the ability but lacked the guts.


----------



## wayneL

sptrawler said:


> +1 had the ability but lacked the guts.




Well, I guess that is why Abbott will be the next PM (in a landslide) and not Costello.


----------



## Macquack

dutchie said:


> Using disabled people for political gain. How low can she go?
> 
> Not only is she incompetent but she's nasty too.




What a complete load of nonsense.

Even your man Tony Abbott agrees with this scheme.

Gillard might be a lot of things, but to say she is "nasty" for trying to deliver the NDIS shows your irrational bias.


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> Well, I guess that is why Abbott will be the next PM (in a landslide) and not Costello.




That's exactly right, how many knock backs did Howard get?
Barnett in W.A, was taken the pi$$ out of, yet he swallowed his pride and was elected. Then claimed a second term with a landslide.
Costello was a great treasurer and sold out when Rudd offered a him a job on the future fund.IMO
As the old saying goes "one volunteer is worth ten pressed men".
I tend to think Abbott, despite his lack of charisma, has the country at heart.
Unfortunately Labor hasn't been able to engender that feeling.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> What a complete load of nonsense.
> 
> Even your man Tony Abbott agrees with this scheme.
> Gillard might be a lot of things, but to say she is "nasty" for trying to deliver the NDIS shows your irrational bias.




No one  disagrees with the scheme it's the motive of Gillard that is in question, she is just bringing this on to try to raise her popularity, using the disabled to be more specific, she's just been trying to get one up on Abbott , she is despicable.


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Well, I guess that is why Abbott will be the next PM (in a landslide) and not Costello.




Costello has really disappointed in his media commentary since leaving parliament comes across as quite limited in his depth of insightful intellect unlike Keating.

Costello quite possibly could have been a good PM who knows but he was a known performer unlike Abbott  who we really have no idea and at times I don't think he knows either.


----------



## noco

The state of play for the Labor Party after the September election is analysing who will stay and who will go on the dole.

The Labor Party will be lucky to hold 30 to 35 seats and they only have themselves to blame.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...inning-for-labor/story-fnbcok0h-1226634795876


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> No one  disagrees with the scheme it's the motive of Gillard that is in question, she is just bringing this on to try to raise her popularity, using the disabled to be more specific, she's just been trying to get one up on Abbott , she is despicable.




Gillard is lower than a rattle snake bellying. She is cold and cruel in the legacy she will leave the Coalitition to sort out after she has gone. She knows full well, the black hole she will leave will be a headache for Abbott. She knows full well what she is doing and it is not in the best interest of the Nation.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...d_will_leave_more_than_one_budget_black_hole/


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Gillard is lower than a rattle snake bellying. She is cold and cruel in the legacy she will leave the Coalitition to sort out after she has gone. She knows full well, the black hole she will leave will be a headache for Abbott. She knows full well what she is doing and it is not in the best interest of the Nation.
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...d_will_leave_more_than_one_budget_black_hole/




I think the last thing that Gillard is worried about, is what people think of her.
IMO she seems to be desperate to leave a legacy that will outlive her. Who knows if it will be favorable.
Being the first female and most unpopular prime minister, probably won't cut it.
Helping run Australia's stellar economy into reckless defecit, not good.
What better, than to make outlandish expenditure commitments, four months before you are going to be chucked out.


----------



## Bintang

sptrawler said:


> I think the last thing that Gillard is worried about, is what people think of her.
> IMO she seems to be desperate to leave a legacy that will outlive her. Who knows if it will be favorable.
> Being the first female and most unpopular prime minister, probably won't cut it.
> Helping run Australia's stellar economy into reckless defecit, not good.
> What better, than to make outlandish expenditure commitments, four months before you are going to be chucked out.




Well she need not have any worries about not being remembered. Who will be able to forget that she was the first female PrimeMinister of Australia as well as its worst PrimeMinister. 

In fact her epitaph should read, "The First and the Worst".

And let's not forget the coming election. She is likely to go down in history as having delivered the worst ever defeat for a Federal Labor Government.


----------



## Calliope

Brilliant. Gillard is a perfect Headless Chook.


----------



## Bintang

Calliope said:


> Brilliant. Gillard is a perfect Headless Chook.





Agree but judging by the comments it's unpleasant viewing for the rusted on Labor supporters.
Guess it cuts too close to the chicken-bone or maybe they were just never born with a sense of humour.


----------



## MrBurns

Gee not all that long now........

http://daycalc.appspot.com/09/14/2013


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> Gee not all that long now........
> 
> http://daycalc.appspot.com/09/14/2013




You gotta be kidding ...... Everyone of those extra days feels like an eternity.
A few more headless chook videos to lighten the atmosphere would be great.
Time always seems to go faster when you are being entertained.


----------



## Bintang

I wonder what  kind of arithmetic Julia Gillard learnt at school.
She reckons she can still win the election!!

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-win-the-election-gillard-20130505-2j0u4.html


----------



## drsmith

Bintang said:


> I wonder what  kind of arithmetic Julia Gillard learnt at school.
> She reckons she can still win the election!!
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...-win-the-election-gillard-20130505-2j0u4.html



It's going to be very interesting to see how the electorate responds to the prospect of the across-the-board Medicare levy increase in the next round of polls.  I can't see it being a positive for the current government.

At the end of that Insiders segment, she only said what she had to say. She can hardly front up on national TV and say, "we're doomed", although I do wonder if in her own mind she is deluded enough to think she can win.


----------



## DB008

drsmith said:


> It's going to be very interesting to see how the electorate responds to the prospect of the across-the-board Medicare levy increase in the next round of polls.




Levy this
Levy that

When you have no cash in the bank (blown-out budget), it seems like this Government's way of getting some, is to just "introduce another levy".


----------



## Aussiejeff

DB008 said:


> Levy this
> Levy that
> 
> When you have no cash in the bank (blown-out budget), it seems like this Government's way of getting some, is to just "introduce another levy".




At least, a levy is not a _**cringe-nasty word**_ tax......why, they are spelt different for starters.


----------



## sptrawler

Well it is finally confirmed, no one is listening anymore.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...roves-with-4-months-to-go-20130505-2j1fd.html

Everyone is just killing time untill September.
I wonder if our prophecy, of the worst ever election result for Labor, comes to pass.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Well it is finally confirmed, no one is listening anymore.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...roves-with-4-months-to-go-20130505-2j1fd.html
> 
> Everyone is just killing time untill September.
> I wonder if our prophecy, of the worst ever election result for Labor, comes to pass.




Well they damn well deserve it to be.


----------



## Calliope

There are no levels to which Ms Gillard will not stoop.


----------



## drsmith

The latest Essential Media poll shows 2PP support at 56%/44% in favour of the Coalition.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The latest Essential Media poll shows 2PP support at 56%/44% in favour of the Coalition.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport




This is a real test of how low Labor can go, things will never be worse for them than they are under Gillard....so this is a test of how low it's possible for them to poll..........


----------



## Miss Hale

sptrawler said:


> Well it is finally confirmed, no one is listening anymore.
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...roves-with-4-months-to-go-20130505-2j1fd.html
> 
> Everyone is just killing time untill September.
> I wonder if our prophecy, of the worst ever election result for Labor, comes to pass.




A predictable outcome of calling an election so far ahead, but of course it was done to provide cerdaindy and stabildy


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> The latest Essential Media poll shows 2PP support at 56%/44% in favour of the Coalition.



The numbers are very consistent with Essential Media.

I'm a bit surprised at the answers to "Who would you most trust to handle Australia's economy?":

Q. Who would you trust most to handle Australia’s economy – The Treasurer Wayne Swan or the Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey?
32% for Swan and 35% for Joe Hockey.


----------



## satanoperca

For your amusement



Cheers


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> The latest Essential Media poll shows 2PP support at 56%/44% in favour of the Coalition.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport




And Gillard said on "INSIDERS" yesterday, she could still win the election!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bintang

noco said:


> And Gillard said on "INSIDERS" yesterday, she could still win the election!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Maybe she is just not very good with numbers and doesn't understand that 56 is bigger than 44. After all  when Julia Gillard was at school there were no Gonski reforms.


----------



## sptrawler

Even Michael Pascoe seems to be toning down the rhetoric a bit.

When he is concerned, I'm concerned.lol


----------



## bellenuit

satanoperca said:


> For your amusement
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers





Actually, even though I detest the present Labor government, I don't find that ad in the least amusing. I think the electorate are absolutely sick of politicians and their childish antics, as witnessed by that poll released today. If the coalition thinks that running with that ad would be something the electorate would find amusing, they are wrong. The only thing going for the coalition at the moment is that they are slightly less noxious than Labor. Even if they have the election in the bag, I am sure the majority of people want them to act like grown up adults and not some off take of Fast Forward.


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> Actually, even though I detest the present Labor government, I don't find that ad in the least amusing. I think the electorate are absolutely sick of politicians and their childish antics, as witnessed by that poll released today. If the coalition thinks that running with that ad would be something the electorate would find amusing, they are wrong. The only thing going for the coalition at the moment is that they are slightly less noxious than Labor. Even if they have the election in the bag, I am sure the majority of people want them to act like grown up adults and not some off take of Fast Forward.



Agree absolutely.  The electorate wants to see serious government, not cartoons.
Just an awful advt imo.  Not in the least funny.


----------



## Bintang

Julia said:


> Agree absolutely.  The electorate wants to see serious government, not cartoons.
> Just an awful advt imo.  Not in the least funny.




No, the electorate want to be able to watch  the footy or the cricket, drink beer, go to the beach etc and otherwise be entertained. They couldn't give a rat's brass what any politician has to say anymore. I say give us more headless chicken cartoons - much better  than listening to a politician's speech - especially a Gillard speech.


----------



## Miss Hale

I'm not a fan of the headless chook ad either.  I expect the ads will get more serious the closer we get to the election but this one was a waste of time.  One of the things the Coalition have going for them is that they are more capable, responsible etc. than this childish/amateurish government, this ad undermines that advantage - stupid! 

They should just so some simple ads highlighting the failings of the Labor government (no shortage of material there) and maybe some that highlight the infighting, Steve Gibbons calling Rudd a psychopath etc. That would be much more effective IMO.


----------



## gordon2007

Not a fan of Julia Gillard at all. But I must say she did a very good job on q&a tonight. Acted very much like a prime minister. 

And the kids were just fantastic.


----------



## sptrawler

It looks as though the Indonesians have worked out what to do about securing their food supply.
Just do what China is doing and buy out Australian farms, Labor have done a great job of relaxing foreign ownership rules.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17041658/indons-eye-wa-cattle-stations/

When we have finished shutting down all manufacturing, dug up the minerals and sold off all our agriculture, what then.:1zhelp:

Oh I forgot, we can sit at home on the bling speed internet, doing our new clean technology jobs.lol


----------



## MrBurns

> Government jettisons family benefit pledge
> 
> The Federal Government has dumped a promised increase to a family benefit payment as it continues to look for savings to plug a multi-billion-dollar budget hole.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-07/proposed-family-benefits-increase-dumped/4673604

No one knows where they are with this incompetent lying bunch of fools,


----------



## dutchie

sptrawler said:


> It looks as though the Indonesians have worked out what to do about securing their food supply.
> Just do what China is doing and buy out Australian farms, Labor have done a great job of relaxing foreign ownership rules.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17041658/indons-eye-wa-cattle-stations/
> 
> When we have finished shutting down all manufacturing, dug up the minerals and sold off all our agriculture, what then.:1zhelp:
> 
> Oh I forgot, we can sit at home on the bling speed internet, doing our new clean technology jobs.lol




Or sit at home watching downloaded or streamed movies and collecting our welfare speedily via internet.


----------



## MrBurns

gordon2007 said:


> Not a fan of Julia Gillard at all. But I must say she did a very good job on q&a tonight. Acted very much like a prime minister.
> 
> And the kids were just fantastic.




Yes the kids were great, that was a free ride and promo courtesy of the ABC, Gillard is at her best toadying to the camera, she didn't look like a Prime Minister to me more like a failed leader of the ALP protected by a soft and biased ABC, with all that's going on we have to listen to how committed Gillard is to education when she's done nothing for it. Gonski ? see you in 2018 ............pathetic.


----------



## bunyip

Never a government to learn from their past mistakes, Labor has now suspended live cattle exports to Egypt on the basis of cruelty to the cattle during the slaughter process.
A similar knee-jerk reaction by them a year or two back effectively wrecked the live cattle export industry to Indonesia, worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually to our economy. Many live cattle exporters across northern Australia have gone broke as a result of that little bit of emotional stupidity and incompetence from the Gillard government.

I’ve been a cattleman all my life. I’m as appalled as anyone by the cruel and stupid Islamic rituals that cattle are sometimes subjected to during slaughter in Muslim countries. 
But knee-jerk reactions such as shutting down important export industries overnight are not the way to address the problem. As was shown by further investigation after the Four Corners program on cruelty to slaughter cattle in Indonesia, not all abattoirs in that country treated their cattle badly. If Gillard had consulted with Australian cattlemen, none of whom want to see their cattle mistreated, then a solution to the problem could quite likely have been found without destroying an entire industry.
This incompetent cash-strapped Labor government needs ever dollar it can get. They do themselves no favors by closing down valuable export industries and destroying Australian businesses.


----------



## dutchie

bunyip said:


> .......... and destroying Australian businesses.




It's in their DNA.


----------



## sptrawler

bunyip said:


> Never a government to learn from their past mistakes, Labor has now suspended live cattle exports to Egypt on the basis of cruelty to the cattle during the slaughter process.
> A similar knee-jerk reaction by them a year or two back effectively wrecked the live cattle export industry to Indonesia, worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually to our economy. Many live cattle exporters across northern Australia have gone broke as a result of that little bit of emotional stupidity and incompetence from the Gillard government.
> 
> I’ve been a cattleman all my life. I’m as appalled as anyone by the cruel and stupid Islamic rituals that cattle are sometimes subjected to during slaughter in Muslim countries.
> But knee-jerk reactions such as shutting down important export industries overnight are not the way to address the problem. As was shown by further investigation after the Four Corners program on cruelty to slaughter cattle in Indonesia, not all abattoirs in that country treated their cattle badly. If Gillard had consulted with Australian cattlemen, none of whom want to see their cattle mistreated, then a solution to the problem could quite likely have been found without destroying an entire industry.
> This incompetent cash-strapped Labor government needs ever dollar it can get. They do themselves no favors by closing down valuable export industries and destroying Australian businesses.




My sympathy goes out to you, but you have to wait three months like the rest of us, before the situation can be sorted.


----------



## sptrawler

gordon2007 said:


> Not a fan of Julia Gillard at all. But I must say she did a very good job on q&a tonight. Acted very much like a prime minister.
> 
> And the kids were just fantastic.




History is littered with leaders who could present well, maybe a career in acting went begging. At least that way their effect on their country would only be fictitious.
Maybe your coment 'acted very much like a prime minister' sums it up perfectly.


----------



## gordon2007

I just hope the masses don't get fooled by one good episode.


----------



## waza1960

> I just hope the masses don't get fooled by one good episode.




  Don't worry they've stopped listening and they are waiting with Baseball bats


----------



## bunyip

sptrawler said:


> My sympathy goes out to you, but you have to wait three months like the rest of us, before the situation can be sorted.




I sold my commercial cattle enterprise years ago and retired early to a hobby farm which runs only a handful of cattle. I no longer rely on cattle for my livelihood, so I’m unaffected by the live cattle export debacle that Gillard created. 

Although in reality we’re all affected when governments wipe out industries or even make them less profitable, regardless of whether it’s the cattle industry or any other.
This Labor government has an appalling track record of doing exactly that.


----------



## Calliope

bunyip said:


> Never a government to learn from their past mistakes, Labor has now suspended live cattle exports to Egypt on the basis of cruelty to the cattle during the slaughter process.




I agree that a government of unionists if not fit to oversight the live cattle export industry. The industry is quite capable of handling this issue by themselves and that is why;

*The live export industry suspended trade with Egypt last week after viewing the film on Friday*.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...actice-is-banned/story-e6frg6n6-1226636211694


----------



## bunyip

Given the number of ****-ups of  this Labor government, I’ve often wondered who advises them. 
No doubt Gillard and Co consult many qualified and well-credentialed professionals when formulating policy. And yet they still make many poor decisions that produce very different results to what they expected.
I’m wondering if their advisers are impractical and incompetent people despite their qualifications. Or do they give good advice but the government largely ignores them anyway.

From what I’ve read, the downfall of Nazi Germany was that Adolf Hitler usually ignored his generals and other well-qualified people whom he consulted. They strongly advised him not to invade Poland, as it would mean all out war with England and France and their allies. But Hitler went ahead anyway. 
They advised him that an invasion of Russia would stretch Germany’s economic and military resources too thin. But Hitler ignored them and went ahead and invaded Russia. The outcome was exactly as his generals had advised him. Nazi Germany was annihilated as a result.

So I have to wonder if Gillard has some of the same behavioral characteristics that Hitler had – that she consults with people who are more qualified and competent than she is, but pride and arrogance cause her to ignore their advice if it happens to disagree with her own opinions.


----------



## bunyip

Calliope said:


> I agree that a government of unionists if not fit to oversight the live cattle export industry. The industry is quite capable of handling this issue by themselves and that is why;
> 
> *The live export industry suspended trade with Egypt last week after viewing the film on Friday*.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...actice-is-banned/story-e6frg6n6-1226636211694




I understood that it was a government decision to suspend the live cattle trade to Egypt. But from what Calliope has said, it appears that the industry itself voluntarily suspended the trade. 
In that case I’m happy to be corrected. 
No that it makes me any less disgusted with Gillard for decimating our live cattle export industry by her knee-jerk reaction to the Indonesian abattoir situation.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-07/proposed-family-benefits-increase-dumped/4673604
> 
> No one knows where they are with this incompetent lying bunch of fools,



It's taken a long time and a deep hole in the budget, but Labor is slowly being dragged by economic reality to the realisation that you can't fund recurrent spending from such a variable revenue source.


----------



## drsmith

Andrew Bolt summarises the government's rapidly growing budget woes in the following blog comment,

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ode_from_75_billion_to_17_billion_in_just_fo/


----------



## moXJO

Typical labor spending money it didn't have on forecasts that were stupidly generous. Funny how everyone but labor saw the slow down. The amount of damage labor has managed to do in six years is criminal.


----------



## bigdog

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...s-from-wilsons-melbourne-awu-slush-funds.html

Tuesday, 07 May 2013
*Some analysis on the mid-1995 transactions from Wilson's Melbourne AWU slush funds
John Lourens with some financial analysis on the Melbourne Members Welfare Association accounts.*

*Read Michael's article on the timeline of Gillard events which are detailed in Excel file in following link*
http://michaelsmithnews.typepad.com...and-references-updated-29-april-2013-1-1.xlsx


----------



## DB008

*Federal budget takes $17 billion hit*




> ''Wong says revenue write downs now $17bn. Last week Gillard said $12bn. Week before Swan said $7bn. Budget in complete chaos!''




http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/federal-budget/federal-budget-takes-17-billion-hit-20130507-2j4ah.html

Can anyone guess next weeks figure? 7 -> 12 -> 17 -> 21?


----------



## springhill

DB008 said:


> *Federal budget takes $17 billion hit*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/federal-budget/federal-budget-takes-17-billion-hit-20130507-2j4ah.html
> 
> Can anyone guess next weeks figure? 7 -> 12 -> 17 -> 21?




Increments of 5, next target $22b.


----------



## DB008

springhill said:


> Increments of 5, next target $22b.




Yes, so far, but who knows, right? (21 just happens to be my favourite number)


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> I sold my commercial cattle enterprise years ago and retired early to a hobby farm which runs only a handful of cattle. I no longer rely on cattle for my livelihood, so I’m unaffected by the live cattle export debacle that Gillard created.



Hello bunyip, when you were involved in a commercial cattle enterprise, assuming you exported them, what measures did you have in place to ensure they were not cruelly treated and abused at their destination?


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Hello bunyip, when you were involved in a commercial cattle enterprise, assuming you exported them, what measures did you have in place to ensure they were not cruelly treated and abused at their destination?




I never exported cattle.


----------



## drsmith

The second round of tax cuts associated with the carbon tax looks like being the next promise to fall,

http://www.smh.com.au/business/federal-budget/carbon-price-tax-cuts-under-threat-20130508-2j6ix.html


----------



## Bintang

drsmith said:


> The second round of tax cuts associated with the carbon tax looks like being the next promise to fall,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/federal-budget/carbon-price-tax-cuts-under-threat-20130508-2j6ix.html




Pity they have to make  all this so drawn out and complicated. Why not just simplify everything by coming clean and announcing, "As of today all past promises are cancelled. Please also be aware that all future promises will be cancelled after the election because we will only be making them to persuade you fools to vote us".


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Hello bunyip, when you were involved in a commercial cattle enterprise, assuming you exported them, what measures did you have in place to ensure they were not cruelly treated and abused at their destination?




Good article from the Age hat puts in somewhat into perspective -

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/live-animal-exports-a-struggle-to-the-death-20130507-2j5oz.html


----------



## waza1960

> Good article from the Age hat puts in somewhat into perspective




 Thanks for that Mr B  yes a good article IMO.



> what measures did you have in place to ensure they were not cruelly treated and abused at their destination?




 This sort of response really gets me .Surely its not the job of the cattle producer to check what's happening after
 he has sold the cattle and they have left Australia. This just smacks of arrogance to impose our standards on other countries , no better than  Aussie white trash getting caught with drugs in Bali and then us whinging about their laws.


----------



## Julia

> This sort of response really gets me .Surely its not the job of the cattle producer to check what's happening after
> he has sold the cattle and they have left Australia. This just smacks of arrogance to impose our standards on other countries , no better than  Aussie white trash getting caught with drugs in Bali and then us whinging about their laws.



And your sort of response really, really gets me!   To attempt to offer an analogy between hideous cruelty to animals who are without choices, and dumb criminals is offensive and just silly.


----------



## drsmith

Bintang said:


> Pity they have to make  all this so drawn out and complicated. Why not just simplify everything by coming clean and announcing, "As of today all past promises are cancelled. Please also be aware that all future promises will be cancelled after the election because we will only be making them to persuade you fools to vote us".




I hope they've got the Clean Energy Finance Corporation in their sights. That would really set the cat among the pigeons with the Greens. 



> Mr Combet warned further cuts in carbon tax-linked expenditure would be made in the budget, saying the government would maintain the budget neutral approach it had adopted in relation to the carbon price.
> 
> “There will be savings that will be made. This is one of them that I am making today, but the specific details of all that will be announced in the budget,” he said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...fter-price-slump/story-e6frg6xf-1226637448746

It's a question though of whether they are able to unpick the mess of their own creation.



> The Clean Energy Finance Corporation (CEFC) has begun to build its investment pipeline after the government's issue and release of its $10 billion investment mandate this week.
> 
> The funds will become available after 1 July 2013, and the CEFC is progressing discussions with financial institutions and project investments with a view to contracting investments in the coming months.
> 
> The full $10 billion is now legislated, and will become available for investment in $2 bill tranches, annually over 5years commencing 1 July 2013.




http://www.financialstandard.com.au/news/view/27445296


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> It's a question though of whether they are able to unpick the mess of their own creation.



Agree.
But they should be encouraged to do it now.  The more they peel back themselves, the less remains for the incoming government to deal with.  Whomever makes the cuts will probably get the blame from affected voters.


----------



## Logique

Could we have this redheaded Julia for our Prime Minister. She gets my vote anyway. 

Yes, she's a citizen of the UK, but that's a mere technicality. Let's have a railway and canal walks led recovery for Australia.  
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00dtp33/episodes/guide


----------



## MrBurns

Why is it whenever Gillard gets anything through, it's a "historic day"

The only historic day she'll be involved in is Sept 14.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

Julia said:


> Agree.
> But they should be encouraged to do it now.  The more they peel back themselves, the less remains for the incoming government to deal with.  Whomever makes the cuts will probably get the blame from affected voters.




Lib-Nat governments generally go with the cycle, to fix ALP stuff ups.

Necessary pain for 18 months, then a period of stabilisation and a loosening towards the end of term.

If TA gets elected though he will inherit a greater fiscal stuff up than even Fraser did from Whitlam.

Gillard, Swan, and the Motley Crew of crooks, misogynists and half-wits, will leave a country with huge problems.

gg


----------



## drsmith

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Lib-Nat governments generally go with the cycle, to fix ALP stuff ups.
> 
> Necessary pain for 18 months, then a period of stabilisation and a loosening towards the end of term.
> 
> If TA gets elected though he will inherit a greater fiscal stuff up than even Fraser did from Whitlam.
> 
> Gillard, Swan, and the Motley Crew of crooks, misogynists and half-wits, will leave a country with huge problems.




It's good to see you around again GG. I was beginning to wonder whether you were back at the nunnery or were awaiting connection to the NBN. 

This government has been so inept that it's had to start dealing with it's own mess before being kicked from office.

This must be a new low for any federal government of modern times.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> This must be a new low for any federal government of modern times.




This is interesting from that point of view, this Labor Govt is testing how low a political parties popularity
can sink to.

From here on it will be known as "The Gillard Scale"


----------



## drsmith

Labor claims it's budget problems are purely related to revenue.

The unfolding and worsening financial disaster that has been their asylum policy alone very much suggests otherwise.

As for their budget projections on this, they remain absolute fantasy.



> As the Gillard government's revamped Pacific Solution failed to stem the tide of arrivals, that figure was revised up to 12,190 in February. But so far this financial year, 20,429 people have reached Australia on boats.
> 
> Predictions released as a part of the additional budget estimates process in February revealed the government expected to spend $2.23bn this year managing arrivals. But in Labor's budget forecasts, that figure drops to $1.3bn next year, before plummeting to $450 million in 2014-15 and just $337m in 2015-16.




Perhaps their dreaming of a Coalition government.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s-5bn-black-hole/story-fn9hm1gu-1226637903975

And on top of that, there's this,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...th-no-money-work/story-fn9hm1gu-1226637953646

What a mess.


----------



## wayneL

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Lib-Nat governments generally go with the cycle, to fix ALP stuff ups.
> 
> Necessary pain for 18 months, then a period of stabilisation and a loosening towards the end of term.
> 
> If TA gets elected though he will inherit a greater fiscal stuff up than even Fraser did from Whitlam.
> 
> Gillard, Swan, and the Motley Crew of crooks, misogynists and half-wits, will leave a country with huge problems.
> 
> gg




Well, at least we now qualify for entry to the EU :


----------



## MrBurns

Bill Shorten on Lateline looks like a recovering alcoholic and sounds about as coherent , a complete d****head


----------



## DB008

MrBurns said:


> Bill Shorten on Lateline looks like a recovering alcoholic and sounds about as coherent , a complete d****head




http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3755909.htm

Just watched it. Shorten is a goose.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> Bill Shorten on Lateline looks like a recovering alcoholic and sounds about as coherent , a complete d****head



That's the first time I've ever seen him completely out of his depth.
It was just an embarrassing performance.  Tony Jones wasn't letting him off easily either.


----------



## noco

I just picked up on this historical U-Tube and it is history repeating itself with this socialist left wing Laobor government rhetoric of today.

Nothing has changed even from the Keating era. 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=memRdMdxR4c


----------



## dutchie

noco said:


> I just picked up on this historical U-Tube and it is history repeating itself with this socialist left wing Laobor government rhetoric of today.
> 
> Nothing has changed even from the Keating era.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=memRdMdxR4c




This is also very funny...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfewd0vUSrs


----------



## DB008

More lies...

Swan promises surplus in 2016-17
http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=871303

I have no idea why they are even talking about 2016-17, they will be out of office end of this year...


----------



## moXJO

DB008 said:


> More lies...
> 
> Swan promises surplus in 2016-17
> http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=871303
> 
> I have no idea why they are even talking about 2016-17, they will be out of office end of this year...




I'd hate to see how high that deficit would end up at. Swan really stuffed up trying to promise that last surplus.


----------



## bellenuit

Even if they were to be in government then, why would one believe a forecast a few years in the future when they can't even get it right for a couple of months in the future.


----------



## dutchie

Labor will *never* produce a surplus budget.


----------



## sptrawler

I do agree with the government, getting rid of the baby bonus.
It is no longer required, the negative population growth has been turned around, by the increase in asylum seekers.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I do agree with the government, getting rid of the baby bonus.



They have only partly got rid of it.  People on family tax benefit A still get $2000 for the first child and $1000 for the rest, as I understood the announcement.  At least I guess this family benefit is means tested.  Does anyone know what the eligibility criteria are?


----------



## sptrawler

Yes it all boils back to a dumb government, failed mineral tax, failed carbon tax, incompetent implementation tax.
Lets get back into the tried and true, the tax heartland, the soft underbelly. lol


----------



## Miss Hale

Gillard 'moved to tears' in parliament again over the NDIS.  I am seriously over all these faux tears   I will vote for anyone that can guarantee me they will not blubber in parliament.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Gillard 'moved to tears' in parliament again over the NDIS.  I am seriously over all these faux tears   I will vote for anyone that can guarantee me they will not blubber in parliament.




Genuine or not the voters will see this as a cynical ploy and turn them off even more if that is possible.


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> Gillard 'moved to tears' in parliament again over the NDIS.  I am seriously over all these faux tears   I will vote for anyone that can guarantee me they will not blubber in parliament.




Yes, we get enough of that on so-called reality shows about cooking, weight loss and singing competitions. Are we a nation of blubberers? Bob Hawke could turn on the waterworks at the drop of the hat.:bad:

Did you notice last night Swan said he was a cancer survivor?


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Did you notice last night Swan said he was a cancer survivor?




Yes I noticed that, these people are beyond toxic, I can hardly wait for Sept 14.


----------



## basilio

You wouldn't want to get emotional in Parliament or public life would you ? Not when you have The Hun and its flock of ninnies kicking the ****e out of anything PM Julia Gilliard does. It would spoil a good story wouldn't it ?

Yep this government will lose the next election. But if Julia Gilliard wants to be remembered for one thing its her  determination and success in establishing a credible Disability Support scheme that will be properly funded and offer long term support to people who need it the most.

The Disability Care program is a really worthwhile achievement.  Being proud of it and emotional about it is tickedy boo as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## waza1960

> Disability Support scheme that will be properly funded


----------



## MrBurns

basilio said:


> You wouldn't want to get emotional in Parliament or public life would you ? Not when you have The Hun and its flock of ninnies kicking the ****e out of anything PM Julia Gilliard does. It would spoil a good story wouldn't it ?
> 
> Yep this government will lose the next election. But if Julia Gilliard wants to be remembered for one thing its her  determination and success in establishing a credible Disability Support scheme that will be properly funded and offer long term support to people who need it the most.
> 
> The Disability Care program is a really worthwhile achievement.  Being proud of it and emotional about it is tickedy boo as far as I'm concerned.




Her teary episodes coincide funnily with her decline in the polls, she's as cunning as a ****house rat and wouldn't stop at using anyone or any group of people to get sympathy.


----------



## Logique

What a brilliantly written and entertaining piece by Miranda Devine. One of the best summations of 'New Canberra' you'll ever read. 


> Party over but we’ll still pay for their fun - Wednesday, May 15, 2013
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg.../party_over_but_well_still_pay_for_their_fun/
> 
> ...But in Canberra it’s clover. This is Wayne’s world, a town of politicians and wall-to-wall public servants in protected jobs, untroubled by market disciplines and insulated from the wealth creators who fund it all.
> 
> This is where the government’s promises and wacky policies make sense, where big government is a growth industry that fuels the economy.
> 
> It’s where borrowing to fund an unsustainable lifestyle is a rational response to a drop in income. *Wayne’s world is where the chickens never come home to roost*....And that’s why the postcode that has thrived most under this government is 2600 - Canberra.
> 
> No wonder the buzzing bars and restaurants around town on Budget night felt like the last days of Rome.


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Her teary episodes coincide funnily with her decline in the polls, she's as cunning as a ****house rat and wouldn't stop at using anyone or any group of people to get sympathy.




Gillard is a nasty piece of work. She is using the disabled to try and wedge Abbott for the Sept. election. That is the only reason she introduced the NDIS.

The tears would be because it was not working. The solution - commit future (LNP) governments to "her" policy.

Abbott will commit to the NDIS, perhaps more on his terms. There is no doubt that this policy will cost much more than Swans so called budget has allocated.

Gillard/Labor is desperate to burden future LNP governments.

Swan's excuse for a $19.4 bn deficit is a joke.


----------



## Miss Hale

basilio said:


> You wouldn't want to get emotional in Parliament or public life would you ? Not when you have The Hun and its flock of ninnies kicking the ****e out of anything PM Julia Gilliard does. It would spoil a good story wouldn't it ?




No you wouldn't, it's not the place for emotions it's the place for leadership.  I'm more worried about the flock of ninnies inhabiting parliament house at the moment. 




> Yep this government will lose the next election. But if Julia Gilliard wants to be remembered for one thing its her  determination and success in establishing a credible Disability Support scheme that will be properly funded and offer long term support to people who need it the most.




But she's not doing that, it's little more than a thought bubble at the moment.   Why didn't she introduce it years ago when she came became PM? Note to Gillard, tears in parliament do not a good policy make. 



> The Disability Care program is a really worthwhile achievement.  Being proud of it and emotional about it is tickedy boo as far as I'm concerned.




Pride and emotion count for nothing in the cold hard light of day.  Actions speak loader than words (or tears  ).

I am so over this government it's not funny.  I was talking to a family member the other day, a rusted on Labor voter and he told me he can't stand Gillard and is sick of making excuses for her.  I was shocked, he has never said anything like this to me before knowing that I am a conservative.


----------



## bigdog

*Crocodile tears by JG --  Chuck her out with a box of kleenix*

Someone should ask her what will she will do when Labor looses the election?
-- my money says she will quite parliament
-- Will not want to be the opposition leader!!


----------



## sptrawler

Miss Hale said:


> I am so over this government it's not funny.  I was talking to a family member the other day, a rusted on Labor voter and he told me he can't stand Gillard and is sick of making excuses for her.  I was shocked, he has never said anything like this to me before knowing that I am a conservative.




Funny you should mention that.
I did a round of golf today with a group of retired ex workmates, afterwards we had a beer, as you do. Well the talked turned to politics, funnily enough the guys that were ranting against labor and Gillard, were the blue collar guys.
They are really in deep trouble, deeper trouble than they think in my opinion.


----------



## DB008

Miss Hale said:


> I am so over this government it's not funny.  I was talking to a family member the other day, a rusted on Labor voter and he told me he can't stand Gillard and is sick of making excuses for her.  I was shocked, he has never said anything like this to me before knowing that I am a conservative.




I have also met a few people like this.

Rusted on ALP voters. Not anymore. They won't touch Gillard with a barge pole.


----------



## MrBurns

She had the whole term of Labor to introduce the disability scheme but chose just before the election all packaged up with tears from a woman who never expresses emotions other than spitting venom - sounds like it is opportunism not genuine concern for others.


----------



## bigdog

Crocodile tears by JG

http://pickeringpost.com/article/watch-me-tearily-govern-from-the-grave/1362


----------



## sptrawler

The polls will give Labor an indication, of how well "reality t.v government" polls with the electorate.


----------



## bigdog

*Liberal Party of Australia*

*    LABOR'S FAILURE*
http://www.liberal.org.au/labor-mess/




*Prior list of achievements in January 2013*
http://www.liberal.org.au/united-failure


*Puppet Show Master *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEnn8VQaa-g


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> She had the whole term of Labor to introduce the disability scheme but chose just before the election all packaged up with tears from a woman who never expresses emotions other than spitting venom - sounds like it is opportunism not genuine concern for others.



I only saw the faux tears for the first time on "7.30" this evening.  I felt quite sick.
Given Ms Gillard's massive failure as Australia's first female PM, she has carefully and cleverly thought out how she can counteract that legacy, and decided it can best be done via heart rending apparent concern for the disabled.
As Mr Burns and others have observed, she had their whole term of government to express this concern and do something about it, but instead she is using it to wedge the Coalition.

To put the words 'emotion' and 'Julia Gillard' in the same sentence seems anomalous to most objective observers.
Perhaps her adviser, McTernan, has suggested her stocks are running so low, a few tears might help.

For me, overriding all her policy and personal political failures, is the fact that she has set the cause for female leaders in our society back decades.


----------



## Calliope

The only genuine emotions Ms Gillard has are hate and lust.


----------



## MrBurns

Yes Julia I agree and I  don't think shes fooling anyone.
Most comment  i've heard today on radio etc has been negative.


----------



## Julia

Further to my comment above, "7.30" this evening had a segment on the plight of asylum seekers released to live in the community, with emotional representatives from the Salvos and other charities pleading for money to help these people.

There is a huge figure in the Budget for the provision of housing, medical and dental care, psychological services, etc for detainees in our detention centres.
Every time I look at this figure, I think how far it would go toward providing some assistance in housing and similar services for our own homeless Australians, many of whom have contributed to Australian coffers through their time at work, but who are now expected to pay for all their living costs on little more than $38 per day.
I only recently discovered that these people do not even receive concessional public transport.

One would hope that a change of government might reduce the money handed out to asylum seekers, who have all had the financial wherewithal to pay people smugglers, and see this spent on assisting our own homeless people.  I shall not, however, be holding my breath.


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> Yes Julia I agree and I  don't think shes fooling anyone.
> Most comment  i've heard today on radio etc has been negative.




She is a very good actress. Her talents are wasted. Move over Hollywood here I come: the next Nicole Kidman in the making.


----------



## Miss Hale

Well Mark Latham once said politics was Hollywood for ugly people


----------



## john12

that picture says it all about pm gillard, trying to deceive the public with staged tears on camera then reverting to type once out of shot, on some things she can be so thatcher-like, the lady's not for turning, but it all depends on how labor pollsters have advised her on the demographic of the group/s affected by whatever policy she's ramming down our necks, no votes in supporting single mums, so gillard is like a stone when it comes to her policy on cutting their benefits, but potentially election-saving votes in a ndis, so bring on the tears ... sickening stuff


----------



## Aussiejeff

.....4.....moar.....loooooooooong...........months..... :swear:


----------



## Tink

LOL Miss Hale -- agree with all above.
She knows she is out the door and the public have had enough of her, Sept cant come soon enough. 
Basilio, she isnt the only one that has been targetted by the media, next you will be saying because she is a woman.
She has dished out enough venom to innocent women aka Abbotts wife and daughters.

If its too hot in the kitchen, get out.


----------



## basilio

Well why not just burn the witch at the stake (with a slow fire ) before dumping her at sea in chaff bag ? 

How about banishing any friends or relations of Julia Gilliard to the South Pole for consorting with the witch ? Have we left anything out ?  Can we possibly be any nastier or more spiteful ? 

I have put little into this thread because I believed it was just a mindless, hate barrage of a politician who is doing their best as they see it. Unfortunately what everyone  left of centre wanted to  see was the PM turn up her toes and die.  Not doing that seems to have enraged an Opposition leader who was determined to destroy this government rather than allow it to see a full term. And of course starting with Alan Jones, Larry Pickering and every other piece of nasty in the country we have had a hate chorus that seems to have infected millions. Just very troubling in my view.

With regard to the Disability care program and the emotional effect that  passing the bill and effectively wedging the Libs to support it in the future. There was a good story in The Age on the circumstances around the PMs introduction of the bill into the house. 




> The woman of steel sheds her armour
> 
> 
> 
> Ms Gillard fought back tears on Wednesday as she recounted the story. Sophie's mother, the veteran disability campaigner Kirsten Deane, said she was not surprised her daughter had made an impression on the Prime Minister.
> 
> ''One of the things we've always said about Sophie is she's quite unforgettable,'' Ms Deane said.
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard and Treasurer Wayne Swan during question time in Parliament House Canberra on Wednesday 15 May 2013.
> 
> ''She loves going to school, she loves her brothers and sisters, she loves playing on the monkey bars, she's a gun at dancing, she loves to run, she loves television.
> 
> ''She's just like all the other 12-year-olds you know, and just like every other 12-year-old she was really excited to meet the Prime Minister.'' Ms Deane said Sophie immediately took a shine to Ms Gillard.
> 
> ''Once she slipped her hand in the Prime Minister's hand, she wasn't letting go,'' she said. ''It had a really big impact on her.''
> 
> Speaking personally, Ms Deane said she and her family had long had a knot in the bottom of their stomachs when they thought about what would happen to Sophie when they were no longer around to look after her.
> 
> ''That knot eases just a little bit, because we know that in the future, her needs will be taken care of,'' she said.
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...rd-to-tears-20130515-2jmv1.html#ixzz2TPPpM5WB
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...rd-to-tears-20130515-2jmv1.html#ixzz2TPPPeq3T




See you folks. Keep on bitching... Only a few months to go.


----------



## Boggo

and now we have the federal gov using the budget to secure state labour seats in the upcoming election !

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...craft-noise-fair/story-e6frea83-1226643137461


----------



## Miss Hale

basilio said:


> Well why not just burn the witch at the stake (with a slow fire ) before dumping her at sea in chaff bag ?
> 
> How about banishing any friends or relations of Julia Gilliard to the South Pole for consorting with the witch ? Have we left anything out ?  Can we possibly be any nastier or more spiteful ?
> 
> I have put little into this thread because I believed it was just a mindless, hate barrage of a politician who is doing their best as they see it. Unfortunately what everyone  left of centre wanted to  see was the PM turn up her toes and die.  Not doing that seems to have enraged an Opposition leader who was determined to destroy this government rather than allow it to see a full term. And of course starting with Alan Jones, Larry Pickering and every other piece of nasty in the country we have had a hate chorus that seems to have infected millions. Just very troubling in my view.
> 
> With regard to the Disability care program and the emotional effect that  passing the bill and effectively wedging the Libs to support it in the future. There was a good story in The Age on the circumstances around the PMs introduction of the bill into the house.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See you folks. Keep on bitching... Only a few months to go.




So what?  We've all got personal stories to tell.  Leading government is not about the personal stories it's about the big picture and implementing things that will be good for Australia as a whole. If Gillard is unable to separate the individual from the general she should not be in the job.  Using stories like this to tug at peoples heartstrings for political gains is a low thing to do. 

I don't want her burned at the stake, hung drawn and quartered, wish no ill will on her family have never said anything along those line.  *I just want her out of office *as I believe she is incompetent and not leading Australia in the right direction.


----------



## MrBurns

basilio said:


> Well why not just burn the witch at the stake (with a slow fire ) before dumping her at sea in chaff bag ?
> How about banishing any friends or relations of Julia Gilliard to the South Pole for consorting with the witch ? Have we left anything out ?  Can we possibly be any nastier or more spiteful ? :eek
> I have put little into this thread because I believed it was just a mindless, hate barrage of a politician who is doing their best as they see it. Unfortunately what everyone  left of centre wanted to  see was the PM turn up her toes and die.  Not doing that seems to have enraged an Opposition leader who was determined to destroy this government rather than allow it to see a full term. And of course starting with Alan Jones, Larry Pickering and every other piece of nasty in the country we have had a hate chorus that seems to have infected millions. Just very troubling in my view.
> With regard to the Disability care program and the emotional effect that  passing the bill and effectively wedging the Libs to support it in the future. There was a good story in The Age on the circumstances around the PMs introduction of the bill into the house.
> See you folks. Keep on bitching... Only a few months to go.




She knifed Kevin Rudd, she then destroyed the Labor Party and our finances...........poor Julia ?

I don't think so, she a calculating woman who will let nothing or no one stand in the way of her own ambition, now she sees she can't win the election she wants to leave HER mark on the country by taking credit for the NDIS or anything else she can get her hands on, everything she does now is reported by HER as historic.

She will leave a bitter and traumatic legacy on all Australians as they prepare for the pain of repairing the economic damage.

As John Howard said the first $17B of the stimulus package was justified the next $42B was pure waste.

You cry over the poor misunderstood PM if you like but the rest of us certainly will not.


----------



## wayneL

Basilio, in her attempt at sarcasm, has actually come up  with a really great idea.


----------



## dutchie

wayneL said:


> Basilio, in her attempt at sarcasm, has actually come up  with a really great idea.




When, in the years to come, Australia see's what kind of mess this government has led us into, it might be an even better idea.


----------



## Calliope

wayneL said:


> Basilio, in her attempt at sarcasm, has actually come up  with a really great idea.




Yes, she has long been an advocate that we should all meet our ends in fire and brimstone unless we adopt her doctrines of alarmism. Her suggested end for Gillard would be entirely in character.


----------



## Ijustnewit

Question Time has just begun and already Gillard has said " Jobs and Growth and Disability " more than 10 times . She will run a cricket score before the days end


----------



## MrBurns

Ijustnewit said:


> Question Time has just begun and already Gillard has said " Jobs and Growth and Disability " more than 10 times . She will run a cricket score before the days end




If you listen to question time for too long you risk a brain haemorrhage............all I hear from Labor is
 "those opposite this and that" and it goes on for hours.


----------



## Macquack

basilio said:


> Well why not just burn the witch at the stake (with a slow fire ) before dumping her at sea in chaff bag ?
> 
> How about banishing any friends or relations of Julia Gilliard to the South Pole for consorting with the witch ? Have we left anything out ?  Can we possibly be any nastier or more spiteful ?
> 
> I have put little into this thread because I believed it was just a mindless, hate barrage of a politician who is doing their best as they see it. Unfortunately what everyone  left of centre wanted to  see was the PM turn up her toes and die.  Not doing that seems to have enraged an Opposition leader who was determined to destroy this government rather than allow it to see a full term. And of course starting with Alan Jones, Larry Pickering and every other piece of nasty in the country we have had a hate chorus that seems to have infected millions. Just very troubling in my view.
> 
> With regard to the Disability care program and the emotional effect that  passing the bill and effectively wedging the Libs to support it in the future. There was a good story in The Age on the circumstances around the PMs introduction of the bill into the house.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See you folks. Keep on bitching... Only a few months to go.




Good post basilio.


----------



## bunyip

basilio said:


> Well why not just burn the witch at the stake (with a slow fire ) before dumping her at sea in chaff bag ?
> 
> How about banishing any friends or relations of Julia Gilliard to the South Pole for consorting with the witch ? Have we left anything out ?  Can we possibly be any nastier or more spiteful ?




Talking of ‘spiteful and nasty’........if you consider yourself to be a fair-minded person then you should also mention how spiteful and nasty Gillard has been

Gillard has brought all the criticism on herself.


----------



## bunyip

Gillard promised us _‘There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead’. _
But in her typical lying style she soon forgot about her promise, and introduced a carbon tax anyway.
And for what? Gillard and the Greens tell us we’re creating catastrophic climate change, and the carbon tax is necessary to address the problem. 
This short video tells a different story.

The tax was a money-grab, nothing more and nothing less, and had nothing to do with Gillard supposedly wanting to save the planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC1l4geSTP8


----------



## Logique

Macquack said:


> Good post basilio.



I do think we conservatives have at times made it too personal. There is a tip, and there is an iceberg.


----------



## dutchie




----------



## wayneL

Logique said:


> I do think we conservatives have at times made it too personal.




It IS personal.... their friggin' hand is in my pocket more than mine is. :frown:


----------



## springhill

basilio said:


> Well why not just burn the witch at the stake (with a slow fire ) before dumping her at sea in chaff bag ?




It is a waste of the chaff bag.


----------



## Macquack

wayneL said:


> It IS personal.... their friggin' hand is in my pocket more than mine is. :frown:




Those little cash jobs on the side would more than cover that.


----------



## wayneL

Macquack said:


> Those little cash jobs on the side would more than cover that.




There is the temptation, but it's an easy matter for ATO to add up 2 and 2 in my game.

Although it is legal for the ATO to rob me blind, they don't appreciate the reciprocal... and they have the guns.


----------



## bunyip

The following was supposedly written by Peter Costello. I haven't checked if he did in fact write it, but it's pretty well spot on regardless of who wrote it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Wayne Swan won't say tonight in his Budget 2013 delivery 
by: Peter Costello 
From: The Daily Telegraph 
May 14, 2013 12:00AM 

TWO months ago I suggested Wayne Swan try something different in this year's Budget and tell the truth. I have put together a draft of the speech that might be useful for this purpose. It goes something like this: 

Mr Speaker,

I guess by now you have all figured out I don't know what I'm doing. That awful truth has finally dawned on me as well.

I hadn't been too good before, but last year's budget was the one where I totally blew myself up - you remember? It was May 8. I thought I needed a dramatic opening. So I began by saying: "The four years of surpluses I announce tonight ... "

No one heard the rest of the sentence because of the guffaws from the other side. That smart alec Costello called it some of the best stand-up comedy ever delivered in the House of Representatives. But the thing is I really believed it. I'm not good at numbers - of the financial kind. As state secretary of the Queensland ALP I used to run numbers for party ballots. But the outcome was always fixed in advance. I thought that's how you did budgets.

I was just getting into my stride when I declared that Labor's core purpose was: "To share the tremendous benefits of the mining boom."

We were going to do this with a company tax cut starting from July 1 this year but I cancelled that in last year's budget. Also we were going to restore the Liberals' contribution levels for superannuation but I postponed that in last year's budget.

And last year I said we would give $1.8 billion to families in more generous payments from July 1 this year. But I'm cancelling that in this year's Budget. That's the thing about my budgets. I do take up a lot of time cancelling what I've announced before.

Anyway, there are only so many billion-dollar packages that you can fund out of a tax that raises $126 million. That Resources Super Profits Tax (RSPT) has shown me no R-E-S-P-E-C-T. When I announced it, I said it would raise $9 billion in the forthcoming year - whoops! I had high hopes for that tax. I called it "the greatest economic change in our lifetime". Of course I had no idea what I was saying but the Liberals are always going on about GST which raises $50 billion per year so I thought I had better lodge my nomination for the greatest tax "reform" ever.

Last year, I came home with a wet sail declaring: "The deficit years are behind us. The surplus years are here."

Looks like I got the words the wrong way around. I should have said that the surpluses were behind us and the deficit years are here. But I did so want to balance one budget before losing office.

I've been thinking about who to blame. For the first few budgets I blamed the financial crisis. But that was five years ago and we've been through a mining boom since then.

Now I'm blaming the high dollar although someone in the Treasury told me last year's budget forecasts were based on the dollar being just where it is. I'm desperate that people don't think it's my overspending because that is something I could have controlled. So we've been on a media blitz to say it's an unexpected revenue shortfall.

In April, I said the revenue was down $7.5 billion. A week later Julia said it was down $12 billion. Then Penny went out last week to say it was down $17 billion. I leaked out a Treasury briefing on the weekend to say we were $26 billion down.

How do you reconcile all these figures? Well, it beats me and I hope it beats all of you because that is the whole point - to try to cloud the issue.

At least no one in the press ever asks me to explain what these forecasts are "down" against. Because the truth is they are down on the false forecasts I made last year. Get it? I am not the victim of these downgrades, I am the culprit. Every time I downgrade, it just illustrates again how wrong I got it last year.

I know we can always rely on the ABC, but the thing that amazes me about those other guys in the press is they keep writing what I say - as if that is going to happen (LOL). How many times do you have to get it wrong before they start to see there is a pattern?

I want people to think I am cutting costs. I've told you every budget that I am about to do that. But when I see a state premier who is really cutting costs - like Campbell Newman -- I just take cheap shots. That's my default position, to attack expenditure restraint.

As well as cutting expenditure I also want you to think I am increasing it - on NDIS and Gonski. Last year I told you the most important thing for our economy was to balance the budget and this year I am telling you to do so would damage jobs.

So how do I reconcile all this? Well I can't. And I don't have to because on September 14 I'm handing it all over to the Liberals. That's their job: to clean up my mess.

·         Peter Costello was federal treasurer from 1996 to 2007


----------



## dutchie

""The default view was ”I just don’t listen to what [Julia] Gillard has to say any more,” Mr Scales said.""

I reckon the vast majority of Australians switch channels whenever Gillard comes on.

To say she is disliked is an understatement. This understandable attitude will result in annihilation in September.

(Good riddance!)


----------



## Calliope

bunyip said:


> The following was supposedly written by Peter Costello. I haven't checked if he did in fact write it, but it's pretty well spot on regardless of who wrote it.




I gave the link for Costello's letter on Budget 2013 thread on 13 May.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion...ayne-swans-world/story-e6frfhqf-1226641521149


----------



## Calliope

Gillard, Swan and the obnoxious Wong keep harping about a Coalition "black hole". The obvious black holes are in their brain boxes.



> IT is high time that the government dropped the rhetoric about the Coalition having a "$70 billion black hole" in its funding commitments. The numbers do not support such an attack.
> 
> Apart from the hypocrisy of a government that has failed to deliver its surplus forecast continuing to engage in such rhetoric, the $70bn figure is based on outdated assumptions.
> 
> All the more so now that the budget has been handed down and Tony Abbott has intimated that Labor's "saves" will largely be adopted by the Coalition.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...hole-dont-add-up/story-fn53lw5p-1226644814475






Thanks Dutchie


----------



## bunyip

Calliope said:


> I gave the link for Costello's letter on Budget 2013 thread on 13 May.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion...ayne-swans-world/story-e6frfhqf-1226641521149




I must have missed it.


----------



## sptrawler

Well the dust is settling from the budget, Swan was insipid, Abbott was commanding.
Today it was a day of hiss and spit from the handbaggers.lol

All they needed was a misogynist, to bash.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> All they needed was a misogynist, to bash.



Well, that little tactic only worked for a short time and has apparently now been consigned to the McTernan dust bin, after being exposed for the tacky confection that it was.

Now, we will all be driven witless by exponential repetition of the phrase "cut to the bone".
(Sigh)


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Well, that little tactic only worked for a short time and has apparently now been consigned to the McTernan dust bin, after being exposed for the tacky confection that it was.
> 
> Now, we will all be driven witless by exponential repetition of the phrase "cut to the bone".
> (Sigh)




Yes I think McTernan has been 'sussed out' Abbott landed several body blows to Labor.
Today in response it comes over as stupid babble about cutting to the bone.
Well, when the idiot government has continually blown the deficit, blind freddy knows it won't be easy to pull it in.

What Labor are saying today is "trust us we can fix it without cutting to the bone" no one believes them. 

Everyone is over them and just want them to leave the party, but they have said we aren't going till 3a.m, don't you just hate those sort of people.lol
The funny thing is they get louder the longer the night goes on and the more you tell them to sod off, the more they dig in.
Oh well we will just have to wait till 3a.m, then call for a public eviction.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Now, we will all be driven witless by exponential repetition of the phrase "cut to the bone".
> (Sigh)




I think they should cut to the chase.



> Julia Gillard Opens the batting on Thursday
> 
> AT the forthcoming election, the Leader of the Opposition will ask the Australian people to endorse his plans. Well, the Australian people are entitled to know what those plans are. Those plans, I believe, are to *cut to the bone.*
> 
> Penny Wong has a crack:
> 
> THAT is in the Liberal Party DNA. They always cut too hard and they always cut in the wrong places. Liberals* cut to the bone*.
> 
> Does Mark Dreyfus also have a bone to add? Yes, yes he does:
> 
> I'D end with this ... this is not the time to *cut to the bone*, which is what Tony Abbott is going to do.
> 
> Question time, here we come! Gillard on Thursday:
> 
> I WAS making the very simple point that the opportunity the Leader of the Opposition has tonight is to lay out his alternate choice for the nation, a choice to* cut to the bone*.
> 
> And Wayne Swan:
> 
> WE on this side of the house are prepared to make those investments; those on that side of the house have a plan for *cuts to the bone.*
> 
> Swan again:
> 
> CAMPBELL Newman ...* cut to the bone *in the state of Queensland.
> 
> And, in case you missed his drift:
> 
> THE Leader of the Opposition is going to try to skate through tonight not providing any great detail ... because he knows that if he told the Australian people about his plans, they would never accept those sorts of vicious *cuts to the bone.*
> 
> Jenny Macklin steps up to the plate:
> 
> WE know that the Schoolkids Bonus is helping parents; in contrast, this Leader of the Opposition just wants to get out there and* cut it to the bone.*
> 
> David Bradbury goes for gold:
> 
> WE will see cuts to payments, cuts to pensions - *cuts to the bone* ... People ... have the choice between a government that has fully funded commitments and will deliver big reforms ... or an opposition whose only plan is to make savage cuts, *cuts to the bone*.
> 
> Gillard wraps up question time:
> 
> THE Leader of the Opposition should detail every cut tonight, every *cut to the bone*. With those words, I ask that further questions be placed on the Notice Paper.
> 
> The following day, the ABC news website has detected a pattern:
> 
> GILLARD says Coalition will *"cut to the bone"*.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-it-in-our-bones/story-fn72xczz-1226645601987


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Now, we will all be driven witless by exponential repetition of the phrase "cut to the bone".
> (Sigh)




You're not wrong there, do these people think we are all so stupid that we don't notice these pathetic tactics ?


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> You're not wrong there, do these people think we are all so stupid that we don't notice these pathetic tactics ?




Dumb and Dumber


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> I think they should cut to the chase.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...-it-in-our-bones/story-fn72xczz-1226645601987





At the next election the Labor party will be "cut to the bone".


----------



## DB008

*Interpol filter scope creep: ASIC ordering unilateral website blocks*



> The Federal Government has confirmed its financial regulator has started requiring Australian Internet service providers to block websites suspected of providing fraudulent financial opportunities, in a move which appears to also open the door for other government agencies to unilaterally block sites they deem questionable in their own portfolios.
> 
> The news came tonight in a statement issued by the office of Communications Minister Stephen Conroy, following a controversial event in April which saw some 1,200 websites wrongfully blocked by several of Australia’s major Internet service providers.
> 
> On April 12, Melbourne publication the Melbourne Times Weekly reported that more than 1,200 websites, including one belonging to independent learning organisation Melbourne Free University, might have been blocked by “the Australian Government”. At the time, Melbourne Free University was reportedly told by its ISP, Exetel, that the IP address hosting its website had been blocked by Australian authorities. The block lasted from April 4 until April 12.
> 
> http://delimiter.com.au/2013/05/15/interpol-filter-scope-creep-asic-ordering-unilateral-website-blocks/


----------



## Julia

ABC Radio have given quite some attention to this over the last couple of days, implying that if Stephen Conroy couldn't get his filter legislation through by conventional means, he seems to be finding a way to nonetheless surreptitiously filter the net.


----------



## bunyip

More dishonesty from the Gillard/Swan con show??....surely not!!!

http://www.afr.com/f/free/markets/market_wrap/debt_higher_than_budget_figures_KObS9sKEjTv5WShIW8ojNO


----------



## Tink

dutchie said:


> ""The default view was ”I just don’t listen to what [Julia] Gillard has to say any more,” Mr Scales said.""
> 
> I reckon the vast majority of Australians switch channels whenever Gillard comes on.
> 
> To say she is disliked is an understatement. This understandable attitude will result in annihilation in September.
> 
> (Good riddance!)




Agree.

Abbotts budget spoke volumes, the look on their faces were priceless.


----------



## dutchie




----------



## sptrawler

Funny, we said months ago, that everyone has made their minds up to dump Labor and people aren't listening. 
Also we suggested, the long election campaign will just make matters worse for Labor.
Now all the newspapers are saying it.lol
There you go Joe, you have a cutting edge public opinion forum, rather than a stock forum.lol


----------



## Some Dude

sptrawler said:


> Now all the newspapers are saying it.lol




So I take it that people will finally ditch the nonsense about left wing bias in the media then?


----------



## sptrawler

Some Dude said:


> So I take it that people will finally ditch the nonsense about left wing bias in the media then?




No, not at all, it just shows that eventually the truth overides garbage that the reporters want to force feed down the publics throat.
Even they in the end have to report what is actually happening, not what fictional reality they want to perpetuate.

It's a shame it has taken six years for Labor to come up with policies they should have been pushing in the begining.


----------



## bellenuit

*Labor base rejects Wayne Swan budget as ALP vote refuses to budge*

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...refuses-to-budge/story-fnhi8df6-1226646351323


----------



## sptrawler

Some Dude said:


> So I take it that people will finally ditch the nonsense about left wing bias in the media then?




Don't worry you've still got some beating the drum.lol,lol

http://www.smh.com.au/data-point/pm-shows-a-gain-from-budget-pain-20130519-2juuv.html

Where there's light there's hope.


----------



## Some Dude

sptrawler said:


> Don't worry you've still got some beating the drum.lol,lol
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/data-point/pm-shows-a-gain-from-budget-pain-20130519-2juuv.html
> 
> Where there's light there's hope.




How do you work out whether something is true or not? If it correlates with your opinion, then the reporter is telling the truth?

Edit: What would the headline be for your article on that poll?


----------



## sydboy007

I just hope that all the criticisms of the current Govt are kept in reserve should they be required for a new Abbott Govt.

I'd love to know how long Abbott should be allowed to blame Labor for all his problems.  How long till that excuse is no longer valid?

I'd argue if Abbott hasn't got the budget balanced by June 30 2015 then he's as economically incompetent as Labor.  I mean, he will have had 21 months to fix things.  Surely a competent economic manager can find cost savings of just 5.5% over nearly 2 years to balance the books???  As everyone on this site argues it's not revenue that's the problem just spending, so a 5.5% cut in spending should be easy peesy eh??


----------



## Bintang

sydboy007 said:


> ..... so a 5.5% cut in spending should be easy peesy eh??




Should be execept that no-one wants the cuts "to affect me".  By all means cut 5.5% so long as its always the other guy who bears the brunt of the cuts.


----------



## Calliope

Some Dude said:


> Edit: What would the headline be for your article on that poll?




TPP poll Fairfax 54/46, News Ltd  56/44.


----------



## sydboy007

Bintang said:


> Should be execept that no-one wants the cuts "to affect me".  By all means cut 5.5% so long as its always the other guy who bears the brunt of the cuts.




And there you have it.  Once the politics comes into the equation I have no doubt Abbott is going to hold onto his BLAME Labor life preserver for all it's worth.

I'm sure if there's a recession next year it will be Labor to blame as well.  It will be quite interesting to see what Chris Pyne says should Tony be faced with recession or increased deficit.  Now Mr Pyne says the Libs would have run surpluses right through the GFC, and since he also argue the Govt has plenty of revenue, it will be quite fun to watch the gymnastics and contortionist style moves he will make to try and reconcile the economic reality with his opposition hyperbole rants.


----------



## Calliope

sydboy007 said:


> And there you have it.  Once the politics comes into the equation I have no doubt Abbott is going to hold onto his BLAME Labor life preserver for all it's worth.




Meanwhile back at the ranch it'a all ABBOTT ABBOTT ABBOTT.


----------



## FxTrader

sydboy007 said:


> I'm sure if there's a recession next year it will be Labor to blame as well.  It will be quite interesting to see what Chris Pyne says should Tony be faced with recession or increased deficit.  Now Mr Pyne says the Libs would have run surpluses right through the GFC, and since he also argue the Govt has plenty of revenue, it will be quite fun to watch the gymnastics and contortionist style moves he will make to try and reconcile the economic reality with his opposition hyperbole rants.




The Libs are positioning themselves as the Austerity Party at a time when other economies, who have had this approach to financial prudence imposed on them, are struggling badly.  Loose monetary policy and deficit spending is now being seen by many as the panacea to avoid the dreaded R word.

If the Australian economy goes into recession in 2014/15 it will be interesting to see if the Libs stick to the less government, lower spending mantra they expect to sustain their popularity.  Slash and burn politics is not what kept Howard in office, it was reckless generosity trying to out promise Labor with pre-election largess.  I suspect that Abbott and Co will sow the seeds for their demise if they adopt the austerity line in response to recessionary pressure.


----------



## Some Dude

Calliope said:


> TPP poll Fairfax 54/46, News Ltd  56/44.




The most sensible headline, if only it was used


----------



## McLovin

FxTrader said:


> The Libs are positioning themselves as the Austerity Party at a time when other economies, who have had this approach to financial prudence imposed on them, are struggling badly.  Loose monetary policy and deficit spending is now being seen by many as the panacea to avoid the dreaded R word.
> 
> If the Australian economy goes into recession in 2014/15 it will be interesting to see if the Libs stick to the less government, lower spending mantra they expect to sustain their popularity.  Slash and burn politics is not what kept Howard in office, it was reckless generosity trying to out promise Labor with pre-election largess.  I suspect that Abbott and Co will sow the seeds for their demise if they adopt the austerity line in response to recessionary pressure.




I think austerity would be the completely wrong path to take. I'm not even against the current deficit, it's par for the course. What concerns me is the structural changes especially around the demographics of Australia and how that can funded long term. Abbott removing things like the increase in super are long term nothing short of idiotic. Gillard reducing university funding to pay for Gonski, again, idiotic.

Politicians may work on 3 year cycles but countries work on 20-25 year cycles.


----------



## FlyingFox

McLovin said:


> I think austerity would be the completely wrong path to take. I'm not even against the current deficit, it's par for the course. What concerns me is the structural changes especially around the demographics of Australia and how that can funded long term. Abbott removing things like the increase in super are long term nothing short of idiotic. Gillard reducing university funding to pay for Gonski, again, idiotic.
> 
> Politicians may work on 3 year cycles but countries work on 20-25 year cycles.




+1. Personally I think complete austerity maybe the wrong path. However the decisions about how current and future liabilities will be funded in light of the structural changes not only to the demographics but also to government revenue sources and economical "pillars" need to be made sooner rather than later.

As of yet, neither party has really addressed much of this. I am all for spending more for tangible outcomes. Build infrastructure, develop new niche industries, make education better but we can also pay for these by reducing upper/middle class welfare.


----------



## sails

FxTrader said:


> The Libs are positioning themselves as the Austerity Party at a time when other economies, who have had this approach to financial prudence imposed on them, are struggling badly.  Loose monetary policy and deficit spending is now being seen by many as the panacea to avoid the dreaded R word.
> 
> If the Australian economy goes into recession in 2014/15 it will be interesting to see if the Libs stick to the less government, lower spending mantra they expect to sustain their popularity.  Slash and burn politics is not what kept Howard in office, it was reckless generosity trying to out promise Labor with pre-election largess.  I suspect that Abbott and Co will sow the seeds for their demise if they adopt the austerity line in response to recessionary pressure.





If only labor had not created such a massive debt (six budget deficits is heavy going) - then there would be no need for austerity. Labor have sown the seeds of their own demise.

Most Aussies will put the blame where it clearly belongs.  We all know who ran up the debt and who couldn't balance their budgets.  And it's not Abbott!!!


----------



## Some Dude

sails said:


> If only labor had not created such a massive debt (six budget deficits is heavy going) - then there would be no need for austerity. Labor have sown the seeds of their own demise.
> 
> Most Aussies will put the blame where it clearly belongs.  We all know who ran up the debt and who couldn't balance their budgets.  And it's not Abbott!!!




So how does that "massive" debt to GDP ratio compare to other economies that have weathered the GFC? Will we need mega-massive or some other adjectives?


----------



## sptrawler

Some Dude said:


> So how does that "massive" debt to GDP ratio compare to other economies that have weathered the GFC? Will we need mega-massive or some other adjectives?




Yes we were lucky we were a small target for the CDO's. 
If we had bought into the toxic debt parcels like the U.K and Europe did, we would be in the same boat as Spain.
It wasn't clever handling by the government, it was monkey see, monkey do. IMO


----------



## sydboy007

sptrawler said:


> Yes we were lucky we were a small target for the CDO's.
> If we had bought into the toxic debt parcels like the U.K and Europe did, we would be in the same boat as Spain.
> It wasn't clever handling by the government, it was monkey see, monkey do. IMO




Actually it was to a degree the Govt because we had probably one of the toughest macroprudential regimes in the world for our banks via APRA.  So we can thank Johnny for creating them, and thank Labor for letting them continue to do pretty good work.

At least we didn't decide to let the fox create the rules for running the chicken house which is what the USA / Europe / UK did.


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> Actually it was to a degree the Govt because we had probably one of the toughest macroprudential regimes in the world for our banks via APRA.  So we can thank Johnny for creating them, and thank Labor for letting them continue to do pretty good work.
> 
> At least we didn't decide to let the fox create the rules for running the chicken house which is what the USA / Europe / UK did.




Very true, the 4 pillars policy and the experience from the 1987 crash and subsequent changes, stood us in good stead. 
It will be more appreciated, if we decend into recession, which seems ever more likely.
The strengh of the banks, will be the only thing between a housing deflation and a housing collapse.IMO


----------



## sydboy007

I think a question that never gets asked is what the economy would have been like if say Govt debt was around half the current levels.

Economic growth would certainly have been a lot lower, while I'd not be surprised if the unemployment rate was around 1% higher.

I do reckon the deficits could have been smaller with a bit of cutting to some wasteful middle class welfare, but I'm not sure how much smaller the level of debt could be before the "cost" of that reduction starts to outweigh the lower debt levels.

I do feel we're a nation of whingers taking the gold medal from the Brits.

We have after the biggest collapse in the global economy since the great depression:

* low inflation
* historically low interest rates - remember Howard says they are due solely to Govt actions 
* pretty close to full employment
* growth at trend

Maybe the current debt is part of the cost of not having hundreds of thousands out of work with a housing price crash destroying the rest of the economy.

I am amazed at the belief that a Liberal Govt would have done much better.  Yeah, debt levels might be lower, but I'm fairly certain unemployment would be higher, and the GDP of the country a fair bit lower due to lower economic growth.


----------



## Some Dude

sydboy007 said:


> I am amazed at the belief that a Liberal Govt would have done much better.  Yeah, debt levels might be lower, but I'm fairly certain unemployment would be higher, and the GDP of the country a fair bit lower due to lower economic growth.




It's the perfect lie because it's unfalsiable. Remember words to the effect that interest rates will always be lower under the coalition? Unsupportable, unprovable, yet appeals to people's prejudices or negative experiences even though the Australian record holder for official interest rates was the very person as treasurer making that political point.


----------



## sptrawler

Some Dude said:


> It's the perfect lie because it's unfalsiable. Remember words to the effect that interest rates will always be lower under the coalition? Unsupportable, unprovable, yet appeals to people's prejudices or negative experiences even though the Australian record holder for official interest rates was the very person as treasurer making that political point.




Yes a bit like Swan saying it is because of our policies, the RBA can take interest rates so low.lol
Does that mean if they go down to 1%, he takes credit for it. lol
What a bunch of goons.

Also as you rightly suggest, the highest interest rates were when the coalition had to sort out that Labor mess.


----------



## Some Dude

sptrawler said:


> Yes a bit like Swan saying it is because of our policies, the RBA can take interest rates so low.lol
> Does that mean if they go down to 1%, he takes credit for it. lol
> What a bunch of goons.




True.



sptrawler said:


> Also as you rightly suggest, the highest interest rates were when the coalition had to sort out that Labor mess.




You should run for politics!! April 1982 is hardly Labor's mess.


----------



## sptrawler

Some Dude said:


> True.
> 
> 
> 
> You should run for politics!! April 1982 is hardly Labor's mess.




I did my apprenticeship through the Whitlam years(it was great, my wages went fro $17/wk to over$100/wk in no time).
Then we paid the price for it, paying a house off at 18% interest wasn't fun.lol
By the way did you work through that period?


----------



## wayneL

Some Dude said:


> It's the perfect lie because it's unfalsiable.




If it's unfalsifiable , how do you know it's a lie?

(though I do agree it's a nonsense)



> Remember words to the effect that interest rates will always be lower under the coalition? Unsupportable, unprovable, yet appeals to people's prejudices or negative experiences even though the Australian record holder for official interest rates was the very person as treasurer making that political point.




Remember that both sides of politics indulge in such.

You pompously implied right wing bias earlier, while your left wing bias is proudly displayed with bells on.

Part of mitigating bias is understanding that everyone has biases, including oneself. A project for your self implied intellect.


----------



## Some Dude

sptrawler said:


> I did my apprenticeship through the Whitlam years(it was great, my wages went fro $17/wk to over$100/wk in no time).
> Then we paid the price for it, paying a house off at 18% interest wasn't fun.lol
> By the way did you work through that period?




Certainly did. I grew up on farms.


----------



## sptrawler

sydboy007 said:


> Maybe the current debt is part of the cost of not having hundreds of thousands out of work with a housing price crash destroying the rest of the economy.
> 
> I am amazed at the belief that a Liberal Govt would have done much better.  Yeah, debt levels might be lower, but I'm fairly certain unemployment would be higher, and the GDP of the country a fair bit lower due to lower economic growth.




Maybe we would be in a better place than we are at the moment. I don't think artificially propping up property prices has been a winner.
Also I don't think they've done anything that has improved employment figures.
The stimulus package was given at a time the economy was ramping up anyway(let's not forget they introduced 457 at the same time, because of lack of workers). So it ended up as a dud debt and it has been catch up footy since then.
Rather than increase personal tax rates(when you have low unemployment) in expectation of the ripple effect from the gfc.
They decide to be creative and introduce new taxes, then apparently they negotiated the MRRT without any treasury officials, that's arrogance or ignorance.
Labor were dealt a bad hand when they took over office, but they have outlived that excuse. Now they are just a poor government in my opinion.


----------



## Some Dude

wayneL said:


> If it's unfalsifiable , how do you know it's a lie?
> 
> (though I do agree it's a nonsense)




Yeah, fair call. Lie is the wrong word there. Perfect nonsense is much better.



wayneL said:


> Remember that both sides of politics indulge in such.




Agreed.



wayneL said:


> You pompously implied right wing bias earlier, while your left wing bias is proudly displayed with bells on.




Some context please? I haven't hid my ideology and acknowledge that like everyone, I struggle to avoid letting it affect my judgements. I try to set them aside when evaluating truth statements which is why I try to focus on how people disagree i.e. if we can't agree on how to evaluate information then as demonstrated in the ABC Bias Thread at the moment, no amount of black and white proof will mean anything.

Which post from myself are you referring to.



wayneL said:


> Part of mitigating bias is understanding that everyone has biases, including oneself. A project for your self implied intellect.




I think we have been around this round-a-bout a number of times when I have said to you specifically that I think rational thought is actually very hard for everyone. I don't hold any magic key or intellect. I have average intellect but have been gifted with a good problem solving mind which is conversely balanced by being bat crap crazy in some other areas such as inter-personal relationships. All that though is independent of intelligence, it's just how mind of all intelligence work. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I'm offering my opinions for which everyone can pound away at my delusions as much as they like. I crave it because without being challenged, I don't usually become aware of my own failings.

Just like everyone else.


----------



## FlyingFox

sptrawler said:


> Maybe we would be in a better place than we are at the moment. I don't think artificially propping up property prices has been a winner.
> Also I don't think they've done anything that has improved employment figures.
> The stimulus package was given at a time the economy was ramping up anyway(let's not forget they introduced 457 at the same time, because of lack of workers). So it ended up as a dud debt and it has been catch up footy since then.
> Rather than increase personal tax rates(when you have low unemployment) in expectation of the ripple effect from the gfc.
> They decide to be creative and introduce new taxes, then apparently they negotiated the MRRT without any treasury officials, that's arrogance or ignorance.
> Labor were dealt a bad hand when they took over office, but they have outlived that excuse. Now they are just a poor government in my opinion.




What? An relatively unbiased discussion sprinkled with facts and some good insights :. Who are you and with the real sptrawler : ?


----------



## Julia

Some Dude said:


> It's the perfect lie because it's unfalsiable.



That's a new word to me.  Could you clarify it perhaps?


----------



## Some Dude

Julia said:


> That's a new word to me.  Could you clarify it perhaps?




Something that can't be demonstrated or proved in the affirmative or negative. For example, an non-interventionist God is a unfalsifiable hypothesis. One can believe it all you like but when proving it or disproving it is impossible.


----------



## sptrawler

FlyingFox said:


> What? An relatively unbiased discussion sprinkled with facts and some good insights :. Who are you and with the real sptrawler : ?




Pardon, could you repeat the question?


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> Pardon, could you repeat the question?




Wow, these dudes are picking fights tonight - splitting hairs and generally trying to flame and bait other posters, imo.  Constantly attacking other posters.  I might put a few more on ignore (not you sptrawler...)


----------



## Some Dude

sails said:


> Wow, these dudes are picking fights tonight - splitting hairs and generally trying to flame and bait other posters, imo.




Alternatively, it could be viewed that some dudes are simply saying "well, put up or shut up" i.e. they aren't starting the fights but if people want them, they aren't backing down.


----------



## FlyingFox

sptrawler said:


> Pardon, could you repeat the question?




Sorry sptrawler, that was a tongue in cheek, back handed compliment. Really enjoyed your post though.


----------



## sptrawler

Some Dude said:


> Alternatively, it could be viewed that some dudes are simply saying "well, put up or shut up".




I thought my post was valid, just couldn't understand what flying fox was saying.


----------



## sptrawler

FlyingFox said:


> Sorry sptrawler, that was a tongue in cheek, back handed compliment. Really enjoyed your post though.



Cheers, flying fox, I will post another observation that I think is pertinent.


----------



## Julia

Some Dude said:


> Something that can't be demonstrated or proved in the affirmative or negative. For example, an non-interventionist God is a unfalsifiable hypothesis. One can believe it all you like but when proving it or disproving it is impossible.



Ah, so you meant 'unfalsifiable'.  Your original post, which I questioned, said 'unfalsiable'.


----------



## Some Dude

sptrawler said:


> I thought my post was valid, just couldn't understand what flying fox was saying.




I was referring to sails post, not yours


----------



## Some Dude

Julia said:


> Ah, so you meant 'unfalsifiable'.  Your original post, which I questioned, said 'unfalsiable'.




Damn.. there goes that triple word score


----------



## sptrawler

I see the new technology jobs are kicking in for the industry shut down by the DUMB carbon tax. lol

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-...ers-hit-out-at-government-rescue-fund/4704496

Blue Scope workers feel ripped off, well they need to get over it, they probably voted for it.lol

The coalition wouldn't have had the b@lls to force this on them.

I also read a report that said Howards tax cuts are to blame for the current lack of revenue.

So if Howard/Costello paid back the inherited debt, they should just keep taxing the crap out of everyone.lol

Like everyone would be happy with that.lol  What a dick.


----------



## FlyingFox

sptrawler said:


> I see the new technology jobs are kicking in for the industry shut down by the DUMB carbon tax. lol
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-...ers-hit-out-at-government-rescue-fund/4704496
> 
> Blue Scope workers feel ripped off, well they need to get over it, they probably voted for it.lol
> 
> The coalition wouldn't have had the b@lls to force this on them.
> 
> I also read a report that said Howards tax cuts are to blame for the current lack of revenue.
> 
> So if Howard/Costello paid back the inherited debt, they should just keep taxing the crap out of everyone.lol
> 
> Like everyone would be happy with that.lol  What a dick.




Welcome back! lol


----------



## Calliope

Some Dude said:


> I don't hold any magic key or intellect. I have average intellect but have been gifted with a good problem solving mind which is conversely balanced by being *bat crap crazy in some other areas such as inter-personal relationships.*




I am not surprised given you are so argumentive. I imagine your acquaintances give you a wide berth. e.g. "Here comes that boring Dude again".


----------



## Some Dude

Calliope said:


> I am not surprised given you are so argumentive. I imagine your acquaintances give you a wide berth. e.g. "Here comes that boring Dude again".




Indeed. People who like trying to push their views on other people usually don't like others who push back.

Get use to it or give the conversations a wide berth.

The choice, as always, is yours.


----------



## Calliope

Some Dude said:


> Indeed. People who like trying to push their views on other people usually don't like others who push back.




Push your views to your hearts content, even if they are mainly just semantics. I won't push you back. You are not doing any harm, and if it makes you feel superior, go for it.


----------



## sails

Calliope said:


> Push your views to your hearts content, even if they are mainly just semantics. I won't push you back. You are not doing any harm, and if it makes you feel superior, go for it.




The ignore function works well with certain poster, Calliope...


----------



## Some Dude

Calliope said:


> Push your views to your hearts content, even if they are mainly just semantics. I won't push you back. You are not doing any harm, and if it makes you feel superior, go for it.




Aww so I won't be getting anymore comparison's to the devil? I guess it's up from here then


----------



## Calliope

sails said:


> The ignore function works well with certain poster, Calliope...




Yes, I have put Dude and FF on "ignore". They are too provocative for mild-mannered me.


----------



## sydboy007

Julia said:


> That's a new word to me.  Could you clarify it perhaps?




Quite often it's when talking about aa point in the past and saying Labor did X and Liberal would do Y.  Only 1 course can be taken, but the other side will claim that if their course had been chosen the outcome would have been better.

You can create models and hypothesis out the wazoo but at the end of the day the only provable outcome is the choice that was made, none of the alternatives.


----------



## MrBurns

From the ABC web site (of course)

Prime Minister Julia Gillard hosts community cabinet meeting at Regents Park in western Sydney

http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/

Talking about Bible studies in front of school photos, isn't she fantastic, oh my goodness she really DOES care


----------



## bunyip

Looks like Labor’s budget has in general been given the thumbs down by the public....I just saw a news headline that said ‘*Consumer confidence dips 7% in wake of budget.’*

I hope Labor's support dips by a similar amount.


----------



## Some Dude

bunyip said:


> Looks like Labor’s budget has in general been given the thumbs down by the public....I just saw a news headline that said *Consumer confidence dips 7% in wake of budget.’*
> 
> I hope Labor's support dips by a similar amount.




There does appear to be a change in direction but as the blog author warns, "Just because some polls went up, it still could be noise, and even if its real it doesn't mean the Budget made it happen)".





I still think they will lose come September.

Edit: More polling.


----------



## moXJO

sydboy007 said:


> I just hope that all the criticisms of the current Govt are kept in reserve should they be required for a new Abbott Govt.
> 
> I'd love to know how long Abbott should be allowed to blame Labor for all his problems.  How long till that excuse is no longer valid?




Gillard and swan are still blaming Howard even though they promised to stop the blame game after the first year. NSW I haven't heard too much from Barry regarding labor stuffing up the state of late or from  CNew up in QLD. Maybe they have I just haven't heard it.



FxTrader said:


> The Libs are positioning themselves as the Austerity Party at a time when other economies, who have had this approach to financial prudence imposed on them, are struggling badly.  Loose monetary policy and deficit spending is now being seen by many as the panacea to avoid the dreaded R word.
> 
> If the Australian economy goes into recession in 2014/15 it will be interesting to see if the Libs stick to the less government, lower spending mantra they expect to sustain their popularity.  Slash and burn politics is not what kept Howard in office, it was reckless generosity trying to out promise Labor with pre-election largess.  I suspect that Abbott and Co will sow the seeds for their demise if they adopt the austerity line in response to recessionary pressure.




Yeah I don't know if you could call anything the libs doing atm as austerity measures. They are barely making a scratch to the surface of the bloated govt departments, imo he isn't going far enough.


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Gillard and swan are still blaming Howard even though they promised to stop the blame game after the first year. NSW I haven't heard too much from Barry regarding labor stuffing up the state of late or from  CNew up in QLD. Maybe they have I just haven't heard it.



That puts them in it too, literally.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> That puts them in it too, literally.




Swans garbage is coming home to roost.

Another recession, we had to have, under Labor, coming up.IMO

Thankfully we have the mining tax and carbon tax, to see us over.lol

Now there is a lot of talk about Australia needing to adopt a food and agriculture economy. Doesn't it just crack you up the irony of it.


----------



## springhill

sptrawler said:


> Now there is a lot of talk about Australia needing to adopt a food and agriculture economy. Doesn't it just crack you up the irony of it.




Absolutely laughable. The average age of farmers is reported to be 62, and fruit producers in their late 50's.

Australia will be in a food shock in as little as the next 5 years.

We can't compete against countries that:

a) subsidise their growers
b) pay a dollar a day wages

Good luck with that.

Don't get me started on the biosecurity threat the imports we already have entering the country possess.


----------



## sptrawler

springhill said:


> Absolutely laughable. The average age of farmers is reported to be 62, and fruit producers in their late 50's.
> 
> Australia will be in a food shock in as little as the next 5 years.
> 
> We can't compete against countries that:
> 
> a) subsidise their growers
> b) pay a dollar a day wages
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> Don't get me started on the biosecurity threat the imports we already have entering the country possess.




Don't worry about  it, we will have a lot of younger farmers here soon, as China buys up the farms.

Also China won't have any problem finding the money to get the water from the north for irrigation.lol
We would rather spend it on high speed download, what a hoot.


----------



## springhill

springhill said:


> Absolutely laughable. The average age of farmers is reported to be 62, and fruit producers in their late 50's.
> 
> Australia will be in a food shock in as little as the next 5 years.
> 
> We can't compete against countries that:
> 
> a) subsidise their growers
> b) pay a dollar a day wages
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> Don't get me started on the biosecurity threat the imports we already have entering the country possess.




Just to add more detail. There used to be 15 fruit exporters out the Perth area around 20 years ago. Today there are just 2.

My father manages one of them. I asked him about export volumes over the last 20 years just last week for a counter action to an idiotic Govt report.
From memory he exported over 200,000 boxes of fruit (from memory, the figure may be much higher) 20 years ago. This year he did less than 25,000.

We find it hard to land a box of plums in Asia for under $25 without losing money. Our competitors, mainly Chile, Argentina and South Africa can land them for around $10-12. They grow fruit of good exportable quality, much like us.

We have been annihilated from world wide markets and the same future looms locally.


----------



## sptrawler

springhill said:


> Just to add more detail. There used to be 15 fruit exporters out the Perth area around 20 years ago. Today there are just 2.
> 
> My father manages one of them. I asked him about export volumes over the last 20 years just last week for a counter action to an idiotic Govt report.
> From memory he exported over 200,000 boxes of fruit (from memory, the figure may be much higher) 20 years ago. This year he did less than 25,000.
> 
> We find it hard to land a box of plums in Asia for under $25 without losing money. Our competitors, mainly Chile, Argentina and South Africa can land them for around $10-12. They grow fruit of good exportable quality, much like us.
> 
> We have been annihilated from world wide markets and the same future looms locally.




As you get a bit older you tend to see how all parts of society are self serving, government included.
Your dad probably "killed the pig" when things were good, which he should have done.

IMO The problem we have now.
We have a global economy, we buy stuff on the internet, other countries look at us and see what they can compete on.
They know what your overheads are and price accordingly.
IMO the only advantages we have over other countries are:
Easily accessable minerals, but high extraction costs.
Huge coal reserves, thereby cheap energy. But won't use it for illogical pollitical reasons.
Massive arable land areas, we have 22 times more than China and 4 times more than the U.S.

But for some reason we are spending 'bling' money on improving internet speeds to the house.
So they can do WHAT.


----------



## sptrawler

Another thing that I'm finding annoying is, these immature reporters, stating the obvious post mortem.

http://smh.drive.com.au/the-worst-candidate-for-government-help-20130523-2k475.html

Why, if he thought it was so obviuos Ford was going to fail, didn't he scream and shout when the government threw money at them?


----------



## Zedd

sptrawler said:


> IMO the only advantages we have over other countries are:
> Easily accessable minerals, but high extraction costs.
> Huge coal reserves, thereby cheap energy. But won't use it for illogical pollitical reasons.
> Massive arable land areas, we have 22 times more than China and 4 times more than the U.S.



We have far more to offer to the world than what's in the ground. 
We have a highly educated, experienced and healthy population, with a work ethic second to very few. We may have to adjust structurally to various pressures from around the world but I don't think we're doomed.


----------



## dutchie

Our main problem is that our forward thinking is only four years or so (i.e. the next election).


----------



## Some Dude

sptrawler said:


> Another thing that I'm finding annoying is, these immature reporters, stating the obvious post mortem.
> 
> http://smh.drive.com.au/the-worst-candidate-for-government-help-20130523-2k475.html
> 
> Why, if he thought it was so obviuos Ford was going to fail, didn't he scream and shout when the government threw money at them?




Not trying to pick a fight..

Link.



			
				Peter Martin - Monday said:
			
		

> On Thursday Labor’s Ken Rudd promised another handout of another half a billion dollars to Australian carmakers, this time to encourage them to build ‘greener’ cars.
> 
> We already hand Australia’s big four car manufacturers assistance worth more than $1 billion a year – and that’s just from the Commonwealth government. No one knows quite how much South Australia and Victoria chip in as well.
> 
> Yet the sad truth that for all the repeated talk about how important it is to have Holden, Ford, Toyota and Mitsubishi here in Australia making new cars - ordinary Australians won’t buy them.




If you look at a number of reports he has made, you are correct in that he has adopted a neutral position. But his opinion pieces appear to correlate with what you think he should have done and it may be that ole chestnet about bias in the media i.e. people do try to do reporting from a neutral perspective but it is seen through our own perspectives.


----------



## springhill

sptrawler said:


> As you get a bit older you tend to see how all parts of society are self serving, government included.
> Your dad probably "killed the pig" when things were good, which he should have done.




You would think so but 20 years ago the export price on a tray of peaches was anywhere from $5-10. A 13kg box of plums was $12-18.

Doesn't leave a lot of fat for profit. Of course costs were low as was the AUD was lower.

Even with the AUD as low as 80c Aussie fruit producers would still be uncompetitive.

Dad thinks that even with the AUD at 70c we would still be behind the 8-ball.

Anyways sorry for sidetracking, but Ludwig has been a disaster for food production.

Funnily enough if you ask the guys in the Perth Hill's who their favourite State Ag Minister was and nearly to a man they will say Kim Chance (Labor).


----------



## drsmith

The Gillard/AWU issue is still bubbling away in the background,

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...illard-interview/story-fni0xqrc-1226650256224


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> The Gillard/AWU issue is still bubbling away in the background,
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...illard-interview/story-fni0xqrc-1226650256224





Obviously the Thomson issue and the Gillard issue are going to stay on 'simmer' mode untill after the election.


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> Obviously the Thomson issue and the Gillard issue are going to stay on 'simmer' mode untill after the election.



Ditto the Slipper issue which is now scheduled for the next court hearing in December.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Ditto the Slipper issue which is now scheduled for the next court hearing in December.




One wonders where the line of aiding and abetting is drawn.lol


----------



## Miss Hale

As many of us suspected Gillard's tears when speaking in parliament about the NDIS were not genuine, she actually fought its introduction for the previous 18 months.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/.../comments/gillard_fought_what_she_cried_over/


----------



## sptrawler

Miss Hale said:


> As many of us suspected Gillard's tears when speaking in parliament about the NDIS were not genuine, she actually fought its introduction for the previous 18 months.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/.../comments/gillard_fought_what_she_cried_over/




What's that lovely Roy Orbison song "It's over" lol


----------



## drsmith

An interesting little poll from Queensland,

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...nts/galaxy_gillard_gone_and_palmer_no_chance/

6% of those polled say they would give their vote to Clive Palmer's outfit, mostly from Labor.

On another front, Andrew Wilkie won't support a Coalition no-confidence motion against the government should it be moved.

http://theconversation.com/wilkie-wont-support-an-abbott-no-confidence-motion-14660


----------



## drsmith

Latest Essential Media poll still has Labor stuck at 45% 2PP.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport


----------



## drsmith

drsmith said:


> On another front, Andrew Wilkie won't support a Coalition no-confidence motion against the government should it be moved.



No confidence in the current government is increasingly looking like it will be left to the electorate.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-confidence-in-government-20130528-2n89n.html

http://theconversation.com/abbott-stuck-with-outdated-tactic-14690


----------



## Knobby22

drsmith said:


> No confidence in the current government is increasingly looking like it will be left to the electorate.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-confidence-in-government-20130528-2n89n.html
> 
> http://theconversation.com/abbott-stuck-with-outdated-tactic-14690




One of my favourite quotes. Bill Paxton -Aliens 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY


----------



## bunyip

A year ago our Department of Immigration predicted that 5400 asylum seekers would arrive in Australian waters in the financial year to 30/6/13.
Now the Department has just released figures showing that 11 months into the financial year the number of boat arrivals already stands at around 22500, (more than four times the figure predicted) with another 2500 arrivals expected in the next month.

I shudder to think of the thousands of millions of dollars this boat people debacle is costing us. No wonder the government coffers have run dry! 
Well done Rudd, Gillard, Swan & Co – history will rightly record you as the most incompetent and stupid government this country has ever had the misfortune of being landed with. You deserve to be booted out of power over this issue alone, let alone all your other episodes of money-wasting incompetence. Not even the Whitlam government, bad as it was, could match the pathetic stupidity of you lot.

This incompetent Labor government simply cannot be allowed to stay in power. I implore every responsible Australian to vote against the ALP in September.


----------



## sptrawler

Apparently consumer sentiment is lower now than before the RBA started dropping interest rates. It just goes to show the public isn't as stupid as the government thinks.
The government should have gone to an election last October, lack of confidence is accelerating.IMO


----------



## Bintang

bunyip said:


> I shudder to think of the thousands of millions of dollars this boat people debacle is costing us. No wonder the government coffers have run dry!




Bunyip, does this help answer your question?


----------



## bunyip

Bintang said:


> Bunyip, does this help answer your question?





Thanks Bintang. 
I see that your graph doesn’t include the many thousands who have arrived so far this year. I believe the cost has now blown out to around 10 billion dollars.
That word ‘billion’ is so commonly tossed around these days that we don’t often stop to think just how much money a billion dollars really is – ONE THOUSAND MILLION dollars to be exact. Multiply that by ten to get some perspective on just how costly Labor’s incompetence has been in regard to this boat people problem, let alone all their other stuff ups.
*This debacle has cost us 10 thousand million dollars so far*. The school buildings debacle cost *another 20 thousand million!* And those are only two of Labor’s many costly mistakes. 
In September this government should get no votes at all, and I do mean NONE. It almost beggars belief that in the coming federal election there are people who will be trying to vote Labor back into power so they can go on dishing out even more incompetence and stupidity.

Here’s a link to an article that was written about three weeks ago. Below the article are many irate comments from people who are justifiably angry and outraged at what Rudd and Gillard have done.
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ns-on-the-costs-of-illegal-boat-arrivals.html


----------



## Bintang

Bunyip, don't give me credit for the chart. it was just something that got delivered to my letter box.
Assumed it was a Liberal Party advert but there is no Liberal party logo on it?
The whole thing is a mess but it is not clear to me exactly what a Liberal government could do differently to turn back the tide.


----------



## drsmith

Bintang said:


> Bunyip, don't give me credit for the chart. it was just something that got delivered to my letter box.
> Assumed it was a Liberal Party advert but there is no Liberal party logo on it?
> The whole thing is a mess but it is not clear to me exactly what a Liberal government could do differently to turn back the tide.



I got one that was of similar format several weeks ago when the number of boats under Labor's watch reached 500.

The problem now is far worse than at any time under Howard's government and is obviously going to be much more difficult to turn around.


----------



## Bintang

bunyip said:


> http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/201...ns-on-the-costs-of-illegal-boat-arrivals.html




Many very good comments attached to that link. I especially like this one:
"When a sovereign nation cannot enforce control of its own borders due to a UN convention it's time to withdraw from that convention."
Pity our politicians can't think of something as pragmatic as that.


----------



## sptrawler

Well Martin Ferguson pulling up stumps, life must be pretty unbearable in the Labor camp, when their best talent starts walking.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17375257/martin-ferguson-to-retire-from-politics/

There must be some really bad conflicts happening and it looks as though the moderates are losing. Well that's my guess.


----------



## Logique

sptrawler said:


> Well Martin Ferguson pulling up stumps, life must be pretty unbearable in the Labor camp, when their best talent starts walking.
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17375257/martin-ferguson-to-retire-from-politics/
> There must be some really bad conflicts happening and it looks as though the moderates are losing.



A tip of the hat to Martin Ferguson. One of few on the other side commanding our respect. The reason Martin fell out of favour is the same reason Australia will have an overwhelming change of government in Sept.


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> A tip of the hat to Martin Ferguson. One of few on the other side commanding our respect. The reason Martin fell out of favour is the same reason Australia will have an overwhelming change of government in Sept.




Absolutely, the loony's have blown any sort of equlibrium we had in our economy. 
Now that mining is falling over, the government turns around to see who is going to save the day and all it can see is carnage.
Houses are already stupidly over priced and all the RBA can do is drop interest rates, which will further fuel house prices.
Absolute goons, they have snookered the Australian economy and it will end in tears. All because of self interest driving a government to appease minorities. It really is a sad state of affairs that will affect everyone.IMO


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> A tip of the hat to Martin Ferguson. One of few on the other side commanding our respect. The reason Martin fell out of favour is the same reason Australia will have an overwhelming change of government in Sept.




The unions have thrown up some great parliamentarians and Martin Ferguson is one. He makes the likes of Shorten and Combet look like imposters.


----------



## Julia

I liked Tony Abbott's tribute to Martin Ferguson - clearly genuinely felt.
I'm sorry to see Mr Ferguson go.  He was one of the few in Labor capable of any empathy with business.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> I liked Tony Abbott's tribute to Martin Ferguson - clearly genuinely felt.
> I'm sorry to see Mr Ferguson go.  He was one of the few in Labor capable of any empathy with business.




Yes I agree.


----------



## banco

No doubt Mr Ferguson will be reminding the mining sector of the many kindnesses that he showed them while in Government and will pick up a well paying position upon his retirement.


----------



## sptrawler

banco said:


> No doubt Mr Ferguson will be reminding the mining sector of the many kindnesses that he showed them while in Government and will pick up a well paying position upon his retirement.




Don't worry about that all of the Labor members will be canvasing for Industry super fund board jobs and any other positions in expectation of being thrown out.


----------



## sptrawler

I see now we should run Indonesian abottiors.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/bu...1129/aussies-should-run-indonesian-abattoirs/

Like who pays for that?


----------



## drsmith

An about face by the Coalition, or a well executed piece of political trickery ?



> PRIME Minister Julia Gillard's plan to hit taxpayers with a $60 million bill to fund election campaigns has been torpedoed after the Coalition abandoned its support for the legislation.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ion-election-law/story-e6frg6n6-1226653322209


----------



## Bintang

drsmith said:


> An about face by the Coalition, or a well executed piece of political trickery ?




Doesn't matter to me which it is. For once it is the right thing to do and I happen to like Andrew Wilkie's comment on the subject:

Tasmanian independent Andrew Wilkie said the original deal smacked of "financial self interest".
"So much for the public interest, and the disadvantaged ... (who) the Labor Party claims to represent," Mr Wilkie said.


----------



## Aussiejeff

sptrawler said:


> Don't worry about that all of the Labor members will be canvasing for Industry super fund board jobs and any other positions in expectation of being thrown out.




What's the odds on JuLiar being anointed Welsh Ambassador to salve her wounded pride? 

....but more importantly, what shall the esteemed World's Greatest Trasherer do for a buck? Shirley a plumb roll for him at Goldmen Sux? 
What a carnival of clowns.....the thought "firing squad" did cross my mind....:bigun2:


----------



## MrBurns

Aussiejeff said:


> What's the odds on JuLiar being anointed Welsh Ambassador to salve her wounded pride?
> 
> ....but more importantly, what shall the esteemed World's Greatest Trasherer do for a buck? Shirley a plumb roll for him at Goldmen Sux?
> What a carnival of clowns.....the thought "firing squad" did cross my mind....:bigun2:




Unfortunately I think we are the clowns, we pay these people to do a job very very badly then reward them with perks for life.


----------



## dutchie

Aussiejeff said:


> What's the odds on JuLiar being anointed Welsh Ambassador to salve her wounded pride?
> 
> ....but more importantly, what shall the esteemed World's Greatest Trasherer do for a buck? Shirley a plumb roll for him at Goldmen Sux?
> What a carnival of clowns.....the thought "firing squad" did cross my mind....:bigun2:




In some countries they would be put on trial for treason.

Hmmm............


----------



## bunyip

Bintang said:


> Bunyip, don't give me credit for the chart. it was just something that got delivered to my letter box.
> Assumed it was a Liberal Party advert but there is no Liberal party logo on it?
> The whole thing is a mess but it is not clear to me exactly what a Liberal government could do differently to turn back the tide.




No no, I'd guessed that someone had sent it to you or you'd pulled it off the net. 
The opposition are going to have a field day in the election campaign if they put up graphs like that.


----------



## bunyip

dutchie said:


> In some countries they would be put on trial for treason.
> 
> Hmmm............




That's quite true actually - these peole are traitors to our country.

I think we're being too kind to Gillard by referring to her as JuLiar. The woman has repeatedly proven herself to be not only a liar, but a grossly incompetent fool as well. 
A combination of the words 'fool' and 'liar' would more accurately describe her.


----------



## Logique

To mark the resignation of Martin Ferguson.

Written nearly three years ago by Michael Thompson, but still rings true.

*My party was trashed by the middle class*
BY: MICHAEL THOMPSON From: The Australian August 28, 2010 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...the-middle-class/story-fn59niix-1225910722814



> ...A favourite tactic [of the chattering classes] for driving home supposed working-class moral inferiority and for undermining its confidence is to discredit the institutions its members grew up believing in. Three examples of this tactic will suffice: sport, the church and the Anzac tradition....
> 
> ...The working class knows that the only role the [ALP] party sees them fit for is dumb service on polling booths, letter boxing, door knocking and the like. Activities that chattering class members do not deign to do, unless it's in support of a local nimby issue...


----------



## Calliope

Bintang said:


> Doesn't matter to me which it is. For once it is the right thing to do and I happen to like Andrew Wilkie's comment on the subject:
> 
> Tasmanian independent Andrew Wilkie said the original deal smacked of "financial self interest".
> "So much for the public interest, and the disadvantaged ... (who) the Labor Party claims to represent," Mr Wilkie said.




It was a bizarre idea. The practice has been that politicians pay people to vote for them. (pork barrelling). Now they are asking us to *pay them* for the privilege of voting for them. It's not surprising that voting is compulsory.


----------



## Julia

Bintang said:


> Doesn't matter to me which it is. For once it is the right thing to do and I happen to like Andrew Wilkie's comment on the subject:
> 
> Tasmanian independent Andrew Wilkie said the original deal smacked of "financial self interest".
> "So much for the public interest, and the disadvantaged ... (who) the Labor Party claims to represent," Mr Wilkie said.



+1.  That they can strip funds from essential organisations like ASIO, put single mothers into poverty, etc etc., and then actually consider they can stick voters for more for their own trough is beyond belief.


----------



## drsmith

Bintang said:


> Doesn't matter to me which it is. For once it is the right thing to do and I happen to like Andrew Wilkie's comment on the subject:
> 
> Tasmanian independent Andrew Wilkie said the original deal smacked of "financial self interest".
> "So much for the public interest, and the disadvantaged ... (who) the Labor Party claims to represent," Mr Wilkie said.



It looks like an about face on the Coalition's part. 

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/05/30/1226653/565888-abbott-letter.pdf

Mark Dreyfus looks like one very unhappy camper.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-...-from-abbott-agreeing-to-funding-deal/4722312

Both sides come up smelling like crap from this, but TA is right in the sense that the timing is terrible. Pity he and the Libs didn't realise that sooner.

Interesting observation from the SMH's political blog,



> 11:13am: Greens leader Christine Milne and her deputy Adam Bandt have just held a press conference with independent MPs Andrew Wilkie and Tony Windsor in which they declared the pulling of the party funding legislation a victory for people power.
> 
> All pointed out that a deal stitched up between the major parties and then launched on an unsuspecting public is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off mainstream politics.
> 
> *It pained them to say it but they congratulated Opposition Leader Tony Abbott for pulling the pin on the deal.*




My bolds.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> +1.  That they can strip funds from essential organisations like ASIO, put single mothers into poverty, etc etc., and then actually consider they can stick voters for more for their own trough is beyond belief.




Yes, I dislike our political class intensely. 
All bloody lawyers born to rule.
At least the Libs listen to their members.


----------



## Calliope

It's a  shame the bill has been withdrawn. It would have been great to see the hypocritical Windsor and Oakeshott cross the floor. To have failed to do so would have been their death warrants. To do so would have been Julia's death warrant.


----------



## MrBurns

> Sandwich thrown at Julia Gillard during Canberra school visit




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-30/sandwich-thrown-at-gillard-during-school-visit/4723132

Too bad they missed.

Watching question time, what a waste of an expensive building, Labor are a desperate lot of hopeless losers boring everyone to tears.


----------



## Calliope

It is going to be very difficult to excuse Abbott's hypocrisy. Is he cast in the same mould as Gillard? 

The incriminating letter;

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/05/30/1226653/565888-abbott-letter.pdf


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> It is going to be very difficult to excuse Abbott's hypocrisy. Is he cast in the same mould as Gillard?
> 
> The incriminating letter;
> 
> http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/05/30/1226653/565888-abbott-letter.pdf




So he changed his mind and saved taxpayers money..............the problem is ?


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> So he changed his mind and saved taxpayers money..............the problem is ?




I thought that was obvious. He was forced into it by a public outcry. What the hell was he thinking when he agreed to it...certainly not taxpayers' money.


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> So he changed his mind and saved taxpayers money..............the problem is ?




All of this just proves that it doesn't matter which side of politics these politicians come from their single greatest motivation is self-interest. Take that to be a universal truth. In other words voting is simply about trying to select the least bad alternative.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> I thought that was obvious. He was forced into it by a public outcry. What the hell was he thinking when he agreed to it...certainly not taxpayers' money.




Suppose he thought it would go through without a fuss but he played it safe and smart and bent to public opinion.

Labor on the other hand are looking foolish (as usual) by accusing him of back flipping, not being truthful and the biggest laugh of all is *Gillard *saying he cant be trusted. 
How far will these pathetic squealing's get with the public ?


----------



## Ijustnewit

I saw Abbott on TV and he said he had listened to the electorate and the people . Something Gillard is unable to do , and thus her problems. BTW what a waste of a good sanga , Vegemite last time this time salami . When they start throwing egg and lettuce we know they really have had enough.


----------



## Calliope

Ijustnewit said:


> I saw Abbott on TV and he said he had listened to the electorate and the people.




He was thinking about the next Newspoll. The independents were claiming they were the only ones with integrity.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> He was thinking about the next Newspoll. The independents were claiming they were the only ones with integrity.




They can take their integrity to the dole office on Sept 15th.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> The independents were claiming they were the only ones with integrity.



They're not exactly claiming it with a smile,


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> "sandwich thrown at Gillard during school visit"
> *Too bad they missed.*




Typical juvenile comment.


----------



## drsmith

Someone next time should hand (not throw) her a toasted sandwich.


----------



## bunyip

Ijustnewit said:


> I saw Abbott on TV and he said he had listened to the electorate and the people . Something Gillard is unable to do , and thus her problems. BTW what a waste of a good sanga , Vegemite last time this time salami . When they start throwing egg and lettuce we know they really have had enough.





Gillard was unimpressed that Abbot changed his mind on this one, as she showed by proclaiming _‘There’s a very large gulf between what Mr Abbot says and what Mr Abbot does’._
I thought to myself ‘My goodness, look who’s talking’.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Typical juvenile comment.




No seriously if these schools had proper sports programs Gillard would have got a sardine sandwich smack in the kisser, the sports program however was scrapped with the lap tops broken promise and the rest was spent on $1M garages masquerading as school halls.


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> Gillard was unimpressed that Abbot changed his mind on this one, as she showed by proclaiming _‘There’s a very large gulf between what Mr Abbot says and what Mr Abbot does’._
> I thought to myself ‘My goodness, look who’s talking’.




She also said he cant be trusted which I thought was the comment of 2013 so far.......


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> They're not exactly claiming it with a smile,



We've lost the election, the leadership has to change, October, Sen Sarah HY


----------



## sptrawler

This statement in todays paper is the scariest yet, as mining slows down, we now have to look at the new economy Labor has put in motion.


And while the Reserve Bank has been hoping that non-resource investment would rebound to take the baton from mining, the Bureau figures show that, too, continued to slide in the March quarter, sinking to its lowest level as a share of GDP for almost 60 years

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-mining-boom-is-over-20130530-2ndu9.html#ixzz2Um2dthgG

Yes that's our new technology future that the carbon tax is going to bring about.

What a joke, the goon show, just proves you don't have to be smart to be a politician.IMO


----------



## Calliope

You know Gillard is finished when Laurie Oakes, the scion of the Canberra press gallery turns on her. Perhaps one day he might even have the guts to question her on the AWU slush fund rort.



> THE death throes of Julia Gillard's Government are not pretty to watch. Christopher Pyne's appeal to independent MPs to put it out of its misery will strike a chord with many voters.
> 
> Gillard and her team have clearly abandoned all hope of surviving in office and are preparing for defeat. The grubby cash-for-votes deal with the Coalition, which fell apart under the weight of public anger on Thursday, was evidence of that.
> 
> Donations to Labor are already drying up and things will get a lot tougher after the election. The dollar-per-vote proposal, at least in part, was about access to taxpayer funds to keep a desperate party afloat financially in opposition.
> 
> Another indication that the Government has thrown in the towel is the behind-the-scenes talk about who will lead Labor after Gillard is despatched by the voters. That entered the public domain on Thursday with reports that Bill Shorten as opposition leader would not allow a Tony Abbott government to abolish the carbon tax without a fight.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...llard-government/story-fni0fha6-1226654801527


----------



## moXJO

Calliope said:


> You know Gillard is finished when Laurie Oakes, the scion of the Canberra press gallery turns on her. Perhaps one day he might even have the guts to question her on the AWU slush fund rort.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...llard-government/story-fni0fha6-1226654801527




SMH has been giving it to Abbot in its best attempts to make something out of nothing against him. I thought I read somewhere recently that the Australian had a new editor that was a lefty. Anyone else read that or was I mistaken?


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> You know Gillard is finished when Laurie Oakes, the scion of the Canberra press gallery turns on her. Perhaps one day he might even have the guts to question her on the AWU slush fund rort.




Laurie Oakes has been superb lately telling like it is, regardless of political leanings.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Laurie Oakes has been superb lately telling like it is, regardless of political leanings.



Laurie Oakes published a column a long time ago on the Gillard government which I described as an obituary. It's linked in this thread somewhere from a couple of years ago.

Paul Kelly's insights (as usual) on the public funding of political parties fiasco this week is a good read. In summary, both leaders found themselves in the poop, but as usual, Labor finds itself deeper in it than the Coalition. There's also a historical perspective in relation to an original 2010 agreement between Labor and its partners in government.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-trips-up-labor/story-e6frg74x-1226654806632


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Laurie Oakes published a column a long time ago on the Gillard government which I described as an obituary. It's linked in this thread somewhere from a couple of years ago.
> 
> Paul Kelly's insights (as usual) on the public funding of political parties fiasco this week is a good read. In summary, both leaders found themselves in the poop, but as usual, Labor finds itself deeper in it than the Coalition. There's also a historical perspective in relation to an original 2010 agreement between Labor and its partners in government.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-trips-up-labor/story-e6frg74x-1226654806632




Yes Abbott lost nothing by backing out of that, Labor looked like idiots calling him untrustworthy........they really haven't a clue,


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> Yes Abbott lost nothing by backing out of that, Labor looked like idiots calling him untrustworthy........they really haven't a clue,




It was good that Abbott backed down quickly but nonetheless he dropped a few notches in my estimation for having
consorted with Labor over this in the first place. I thought he would have been astute enough to figure out for himself that:
1) It would be deeply unpopular with the electorate
2) Labor needs the money more than the Coalition
3) Labor will lose the election anyway so just let them hang out to dry


----------



## dutchie

Bintang said:


> It was good that Abbott backed down quickly but nonetheless he dropped a few notches in my estimation for having
> consorted with Labor over this in the first place. I thought he would have been astute enough to figure out for himself that:
> 1) It would be deeply unpopular with the electorate
> 2) Labor needs the money more than the Coalition
> 3) Labor will lose the election anyway so just let them hang out to dry




Good points.

Don't think he is as politically savvy as Howard was.

He is so scared of making a mistake that he is.


----------



## drsmith

Bintang said:


> It was good that Abbott backed down quickly but nonetheless he dropped a few notches in my estimation for having
> consorted with Labor over this in the first place. I thought he would have been astute enough to figure out for himself that:
> 1) It would be deeply unpopular with the electorate
> 2) Labor needs the money more than the Coalition
> 3) Labor will lose the election anyway so just let them hang out to dry



It has also exposed deficiencies in the decision making process within the Coalition. This was a decision of the few without consultation with the many. 

This is how Labor governs and it's not what we need. Hopefully TA has taken a step in the right direction and learnt from it.


----------



## Calliope

dutchie said:


> Good points.
> 
> Don't think he is as politically savvy as Howard was.
> 
> He is so scared of making a mistake that he is.




I doubt that Abbot will ever make a bold decision again. Gillard, the Wong led Handbag Brigade and the Mummy Tweeters have completely de-knackered him. 

After the election *he will have to* make some "courageous" decisions.


----------



## Bintang

drsmith said:


> This is how Labor governs and it's not what we need. Hopefully TA has taken a step in the right direction and learnt from it.




For a brief moment I think Abbott was indulging in the arrogance of incumbency as if he had already won the election.
The party pulled him up by the bootstraps, reminding him the election is still in front of them and therefore he did an about face.
But the incident doesn't bode well for the future in my opinion. Not that I am surprised. At the end of the day Abbott is just another politician.


----------



## Julia

Bintang said:


> It was good that Abbott backed down quickly but nonetheless he dropped a few notches in my estimation for having
> consorted with Labor over this in the first place. I thought he would have been astute enough to figure out for himself that:
> 1) It would be deeply unpopular with the electorate
> 2) Labor needs the money more than the Coalition
> 3) Labor will lose the election anyway so just let them hang out to dry




I agree.  He is worryingly lacking in political nous at times.

His determination to press ahead with his extravagant parental leave scheme is another example of this.


----------



## Logique

Hanson to announce new political tilt  -  SMH - June 3, 2013
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?p=775852&noquote=1

"Unexpected"...hmm. There's been a spate of Palmer United Party announcements in NSW recently..I wonder. We averted having her in the NSW Upper House.  



> Pauline Hanson says she is turning to social media to connect with voters in her upcoming bid to enter federal parliament.
> 
> Ms Hanson is due to make "an important announcement in relation to the federal election" at Martin Place in Sydney on Monday.
> 
> On Monday morning she was not saying which house she will be looking to enter or whether she would stand as an independent or party member.
> 
> But she did say on the Fairfax Radio she would be standing in NSW and it was "going to be unexpected".


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> Hanson to announce new political tilt  -  SMH - June 3, 2013
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?p=775852&noquote=1
> 
> "Unexpected"...hmm. There's been a spate of Palmer United Party announcements in NSW recently..I wonder. We averted having her in the NSW Upper House.




Well she's got no hope but in the present climate I can see why she's having a go.


----------



## Calliope

Groundhog day at Essential Media: Labor 45, Coalition 55.

The poll explains why Gillard Government Minister Jason Clare now chooses to campaign in Liberal blue.





http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> The poll explains why Gillard Government Minister Jason Clare now chooses to campaign in Liberal blue.



He's obviously decided it's better to squat nearer the house of Liberal than it is to shelter in the ruins of the house of Labor.


----------



## McLovin

Calliope said:


> Groundhog day at Essential Media: Labor 45, Coalition 55.
> 
> The poll explains why Gillard Government Minister Jason Clare now chooses to campaign in Liberal blue.
> 
> View attachment 52578
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/




Check out Chris Bowen's website...

http://www.chrisbowen.net/chris-bowen/home.do

If you didn't know better you'd think he was running as an independent. There's a billboard in his electorate which also makes no reference to the ALP.


----------



## sails

McLovin said:


> Check out Chris Bowen's website...
> 
> http://www.chrisbowen.net/chris-bowen/home.do
> 
> If you didn't know better you'd think he was running as an independent. There's a billboard in his electorate which also makes no reference to the ALP.




Looks like Bowen is trying to dress like Abbott...lol


----------



## banco

"Pauline Hanson says she is turning to social media to connect with voters in her upcoming bid to enter federal parliament."

It's difficult to think of a group of voters that are less likely to be on social media than potential Hanson voters.


----------



## sails

Newspoll: 58-42 to Coalition



> The latest fortnightly Newspoll is an especially bad one for Labor, coming in at 58-42 for the Coalition from primary votes of 30% for Labor and 49% for the Coalition.
> 
> The latest fortnightly Newspoll is an especially bad one for Labor, coming in at 58-42 for the Coalition from primary votes of 30% for Labor and 49% for the Coalition. Tony Abbott’s lead as preferred prime minister has widened to 43-35. More to follow.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Newspoll: 58-42 to Coalition




Well it's not as though everyone didn't call it, this is a sad idictment on stratergy planning by Labor.
But I think it will get worse, much worse.lol


----------



## bellenuit

*Voters hit Julia Gillard over funding according to latest Newspoll*

_JULIA Gillard's personal support has dropped to a three-month low and Tony Abbott has extended his lead as the nation's preferred prime minister after public outrage over plans to give Labor and the Liberal parties $10 million each in taxpayer funds for electioneering.

Satisfaction with the way the Prime Minister is doing her job has fallen three points to 28 per cent in the past two weeks and dissatisfaction has risen from 59 per cent to 62 per cent, the highest since the end of March. And Tony Abbott has stretched his lead as preferred prime minister to eight points.

Ms Gillard faced a revolt from her Labor MPs and a public outcry at attempts to quietly agree to public funding changes for political parties last week. She was forced to dump the plan when the Opposition Leader reneged on an agreement to back the proposal, saying he had ``listened'' to the public and his own MPs.

The Gillard government has also been on the defensive in the past two weeks over fears of asbestos contamination in the roll out of the National Broadband Network fibre cable and a rash of illegal boat arrivals.

According to the latest Newspoll survey, conducted exclusively for The Australian last weekend, voters have pushed the Coalition's primary vote support to a three-month high of 49 per cent, with Labor one point lower at 30 per cent. The shift gives the Coalition a 16-percentage point lead over the government after second preferences, 58 per cent to 42 per cent.

Based on preference flows at the last election, Labor is facing a national swing against it of 8 per cent, enough to cost it 35 sitting Labor members if there was a uniform swing across Australia.

Full details of the Newspoll will be published in The Australian and online tomorrow._


----------



## bellenuit

bellenuit said:


> *Voters hit Julia Gillard over funding according to latest Newspoll*




Some Liberal MP, I can't remember who but I think it might have been Christopher Pyne, predicted a month or so ago, based on info he had received from Labor backbenchers, that Rudd supporters would make another coup attempt against Gillard on June 6th. This latest poll may just be the catalyst needed. 

But I would hate to see her go at this late stage. Let the people show what they think of her in 3 months time.


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> Some Liberal MP, I can't remember who but I think it might have been Christopher Pyne, predicted a month or so ago, based on info he had received from Labor backbenchers, that Rudd supporters would make another coup attempt against Gillard on June 6th. This latest poll may just be the catalyst needed.



I'm wondering myself whether she'll still be PM by the end of the week.


----------



## MrBurns

Labor have really stuffed this up, they've allowed Gillard to stack to front bench with lap dogs to prevent her being replaced and now they pay the price, too late to replace her now but perhaps they might as a last minute desperation measure.


----------



## dutchie

sails said:


> Newspoll: 58-42 to Coalition




That buffoon Emerson will have another another hit on his hands on September 14th

The words to the song have been leaked: (you know the tune)


Labor Party wipeout, there on my TV screen,
Labor Party wipeout, there on my TV screen,
Labor Party wipeout, there on my TV screen,
 Shocking me right out of my brain,
 Shocking me right out of my brain.


----------



## Calliope

Phillip Adams, who hates Gillard but loves Rudd, compares Gillard and Swan to Thelma and Louise.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...p-over-the-abyss/story-e6frgd0x-1226656501382


----------



## MrBurns

As payback for all she's done to us , the country and the Labor party I just hope the polls get worse, they all deserve it.


----------



## drsmith

For Labor it just becomes more of a horror story.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/06/04/1226656/609625-130604-federal-newspoll.pdf


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> For Labor it just becomes more of a horror story.
> 
> http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/06/04/1226656/609625-130604-federal-newspoll.pdf



On those figures the Greens have taken a bigger hit than the ALP.


----------



## drsmith

Former Chief Government Whip Joel Fitzgibbon sees the lighter side,


----------



## dutchie

Bob Carr asks Gillard to step down.


----------



## Bintang

dutchie said:


> Bob Carr asks Gillard to step down.




Gillard has denied this but she should step down anyway before polling day and the sooner the better. By this I don't mean better for the Labor party. I mean better for the Nation and its democracy.

For the last 5 months I have been relishing seeing Gillard go down hard on polling day but I am beginning to rethink. The polls are now looking so bad for Labor that I think we could end up with an opposition party so enfeebled that it will not be healthy for our democracy. We need a new Government for sure but not one which is able to do whatever it wants because the opposition benches are nearly empty.
It could be that if Gillard is allowed to take the whole party over the cliff with her  that her legacy will be not just the wreckage caused during her time at the leadership helm but also the wreckage that might ensue after she has gone - i.e. from a coalition Government that has too much unbridled power and arrogance.

So, in the words of an old Labor party election slogan - "It Is time". Gillard should go now. Doesn't really matter with whom she is replaced. Just the fact she will have gone should give the party back a few extra votes a thereby save a few extra seats.


----------



## bellenuit

Bintang said:


> Gillard has denied this but she should step down anyway before polling day and the sooner the better. By this I don't mean better for the Labor party. I mean better for the Nation and its democracy.
> 
> For the last 5 months I have been relishing seeing Gillard go down hard on polling day but I am beginning to rethink. The polls are now looking so bad for Labor that I think we could end up with an opposition party so enfeebled that it will not be healthy for our democracy. We need a new Government for sure but not one which is able to do whatever it wants because the opposition benches are nearly empty.
> It could be that if Gillard is allowed to take the whole party over the cliff with her  that her legacy will be not just the wreckage caused during her time at the leadership helm but also the wreckage that might ensue after she has gone - i.e. from a coalition Government that has too much unbridled power and arrogance.
> 
> So, in the words of an old Labor party election slogan - "It Is time". Gillard should go now. Doesn't really matter with whom she is replaced. Just the fact she will have gone should give the party back a few extra votes a thereby save a few extra seats.




We need a government that has an absolute majority in both houses so that they can repeal the previous bad legislation and enact good legislation without pandering to the whims of minorities. I know there is a risk with so much power, but it was the lack of a clear majority that led to much of the mess we are in. If Labor learns its lesson and can come up with a party that is more than a collection of union hacks, then it might deserve better representation at the following election.


----------



## banco

MrBurns said:


> Yes Abbott lost nothing by backing out of that, Labor looked like idiots calling him untrustworthy........they really haven't a clue,




If Gillard had signed a letter agreeing to something and then backed out you'd be the first one calling for her head.


----------



## MrBurns

banco said:


> If Gillard had signed a letter agreeing to something and then backed out you'd be the first one calling for her head.




No, not really, only an idiot would have a go at someone who backed out of a deal to blow more taxpayers money.

And that idiot is Gillard , she even called him untrustworthy causing level 6 on the richter scale of laughter around the country.


----------



## Bintang

banco said:


> If Gillard had signed a letter agreeing to something and then backed out you'd be the first one calling for her head.




She's done worse than that and nearly everyone is calling for her head anyway.


----------



## Calliope

banco said:


> If Gillard had signed a letter agreeing to something and then backed out you'd be the first one calling for her head.




Certainly not! We need that red head to be still in the job at election time. She is the Coalition's best chance to bring down the whole rotten edifice.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Certainly not! We need that red head to be still in the job at election time. She is the Coalition's best chance to bring down the whole rotten edifice.




I'll second that, she should go down with the ship she sunk


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> We need a government that has an absolute majority in both houses so that they can repeal the previous bad legislation and enact good legislation without pandering to the whims of minorities. I know there is a risk with so much power, but it was the lack of a clear majority that led to much of the mess we are in. If Labor learns its lesson and can come up with a party that is more than a collection of union hacks, then it might deserve better representation at the following election.



I agree. 

  Bintang, I get your point about a healthy opposition, but the primary objective should be, as bellenuit points out, to repeal the woeful legislation.  The nation will not take kindly to a double dissolution election in order to achieve this.


----------



## banco

MrBurns said:


> No, not really, only an idiot would have a go at someone who backed out of a deal to blow more taxpayers money.
> 
> And that idiot is Gillard , she even called him untrustworthy causing level 6 on the richter scale of laughter around the country.




So I assume you think Abbott should be free to break any commitments he makes if they involve the expenditure of taxpayer money?  Really being such a dedicated political hack I thought you'd do a better job of spinning Abbott's poor judgement in agreeing to the deal without consulting his colleagues etc.


----------



## MrBurns

banco said:


> So I assume you think Abbott should be free to break any commitments he makes if they involve the expenditure of taxpayer money?  Really being such a dedicated political hack I thought you'd do a better job of spinning Abbott's poor judgement in agreeing to the deal without consulting his colleagues etc.




I didn't say that, but I don't think anyone will judged harshly for breaking an agreement with a proven liar to *save the taxpayer money.*


----------



## Macquack

Calliope said:


> Certainly not! We need that* red head *to be still in the job at election time. She is the Coalition's best chance to bring down the whole rotten edifice.




The "red head's" name is Julia Gillard and happens to be the Prime Minister (at the moment), so show some f***king respect.

Does your voice have the same feminine tones as Alan Jones when you dictate this rubbish to yourself?


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> The "red head's" name is Julia Gillard and happens to be the Prime Minister (at the moment), so show some f***king respect.
> 
> Does your voice have the same feminine tones as Alan Jones when you dictate this rubbish to yourself?




ROFL respect ???? yes all she deserves...............hand me other sandwich........


----------



## Bintang

Julia said:


> I agree.
> 
> Bintang, I get your point about a healthy opposition, but the primary objective should be, as bellenuit points out, to repeal the woeful legislation.  The nation will not take kindly to a double dissolution election in order to achieve this.




Fair enough. But after they have repealed the bad stuff what will they do after that. For how long will they exercise their power altruistically? I'm not saying don't give them the power they need to do what you suggest. I'm just saying there needs to be a sufficiently large opposition to  keep the new guys in charge under the microscope and on their toes. 

Nonetheless it would be a hilarious outcome if Kevin Ruddd becomes  not just the only Queensland Labor MP left standing after the election but also the ONLY Labor MP left standing nationwide. It would be the ultimate reward for a compulsive micro-manager. He would be able to appoint himself to every single shadow portfolio. LOL


----------



## drsmith

Poor Laurie Ferguson must have drawn the short straw to front up on the ABC's 7:30 to give the dead horse a bit more of a flogging.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3774614.htm

It's a far cry from "Another Boat, another Failure".


----------



## Bintang

Macquack said:


> The "red head's" name is Julia Gillard and happens to be the Prime Minister (at the moment), so show some f***king respect.




jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj


----------



## Calliope

Macquack said:


> The "red head's" name is Julia Gillard and happens to be the Prime Minister (at the moment), so show some f***king respect.
> 
> Does your voice have the same feminine tones as Alan Jones when you dictate this rubbish to yourself?




You'll just have to grin and bear it Macquack; you are demanding "f***king respect". I think you should show a little respect to your fellow posters. A potty mouth does not help.


----------



## Logique

Listen I voted for Bob Hawke, and Andrew Bolt worked for him.

I say to people who really care about the ALP, do not vote for them on 14 Sept. 

Look at the ever increasing number of disillusioned party members, inside and outside of the parliament. Labor needs a chance to rebuild, go back to basics, return to genuine community representation and the merit principle ; and slough off the careerists, Unions and Emilys Listers who have hijacked it.


----------



## MrBurns

It's going to be a long 100 days...


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> Listen I voted for Bob Hawke, and Andrew Bolt worked for him.
> 
> I say to people who really care about the ALP, do not vote for them on 14 Sept.
> 
> Look at the ever increasing number of disillusioned party members, inside and outside of the parliament. Labor needs a chance to rebuild, go back to basics, return to genuine community representation and the merit principle ; and slough off the careerists, Unions and Emilys Listers who have hijacked it.




+1 my sentiments exactly.


----------



## Judd

It has almost become surreal.  One can imagine the following "good news" group email to the Liberals, ALP and the Greens on the electorates voting intentions:

To the ALP, the good news is that the electorate do not wish to vote for the Lib or Green candidates.
To the Libs, the good news is that the electorate do not wish to vote for the ALP or Green candidates,
To the Greens, the good news is that the electorate do not wish to vote for the ALP or Lib candidates.

Now for the bad news......


----------



## Calliope

Even the unions are trying to distance themselves from Labor.



> EMOTIVE advertisements depicting families whose lives are being undermined by unjust workplace practices will begin screening tonight, as a part of a major campaign push by unions against insecure work.
> 
> With 101 days to go to the federal election, the ACTU advertisements will debut during tonight's rugby league State of Origin telecast and will evoke memories of the 2007 Your Rights At Work campaign that was widely credited with helping to bring down the Howard government.
> 
> Union officials said they needed to improve their public image given the likely election of an Abbott government and the Coalition's intention to wage an assault on the institutional power of unions.
> 
> ACTU secretary Dave Oliver said the new advertisements did not mention the Coalition but used scenarios to show how unions could help workers combat the "imbalance of power in the workplace".






> *The advertisements do not mention the ALP and Mr Oliver maintained that unions were independent of the Labor Party*.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-the-downtrodden/story-fn59noo3-1226657368437


----------



## drsmith

Kevin Rudd calling for discipline ??

http://www.google.com/news?ncl=dzWmSLxx7MmZx2McoHz37z7KZQUsM&q=kevin+rudd&lr=English&hl=en

He's just laughing at Julia Gillard now or does he still harbour hopes of coming out of cryogenic freeze ?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/desperate-mps-want-rudd-to-save-them/story-e6frf7jo-1226657353042


----------



## Aussiejeff

MrBurns said:


> It's going to be a long 100 days...




Gawd, won't it ever.....100 days of chest beating, tax payer funded media propaganda


----------



## drsmith

The panic from within is growing,



> "It's like the Titanic - we're in the final scenes," the backbencher told ABC News Online.
> 
> "Third class has realised the doors are locked and they're not getting out.
> 
> "And first class are running around looking for a dress to put on."




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-05/labor-mp-draws-titanic-analogy/4734624


----------



## Calliope

This is an excellent way to launder money.



> We vote in 101 days. The favourite is paying $1.01




If you have, say, $100,000 of black economy $100 bills under your mattress, this is a surefire way to launder it. Take the bundle to Sportingbet and put the lot on The Coalition. On Sept 15 they will give you a cheque for $101,000, which you can then safely deposit in your bank account.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The panic from within is growing,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-05/labor-mp-draws-titanic-analogy/4734624




That's just wonderful........


----------



## dutchie

Labor are in the poo big time and deservedly so.

What can they do?

Rudd - a waste of space only interested in himself. A delusional peacock.

Shorten - bombastic union thug. A narcissist through and through.

Crean and Ferguson - old wise heads that may be able to pull the shattered pieces of whats left.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Perhaps they will get a dead cat bounce with next poll......


----------



## Bushman

dutchie said:


> Labor are in the poo big time and deservedly so.
> 
> What can they do?
> 
> Rudd - a waste of space only interested in himself. A delusional peacock.
> 
> Shorten - bombastic union thug. A narcissist through and through.
> 
> Crean and Ferguson - old wise heads that may be able to pull the shattered pieces of whats left.




Problem is that Ferguson is leaving parliament! Says it all really. 

My 2c - think they will bring Bowen in to stem the bleeding. Vic goons brought the ALP Gillard so not sure how Shorten can extricate himself. 

This thread needs to be changes - there is no way you could call this irrelevant rabble a 'government'. The worst PM ever and these independents must be wishing they had never broken bread with her. 

Yawn, 3 months to go ...


----------



## Bintang

drsmith said:


> The panic from within is growing,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-05/labor-mp-draws-titanic-analogy/4734624




This sentence epitomises why they are so out of touch: "What the Australian public want from us is us to get on with the job."

WRONG: What the Australian public wants is an election sooner rather than later so we can get rid of the goons once and for all.


----------



## MrBurns

Bintang said:


> This sentence epitomises why they are so out of touch: "What the Australian public want from us is us to get on with the job."
> 
> WRONG: What the Australian public wants is an election sooner rather than later so we can get rid of the goons once and for all.




Yes I saw that, she's been getting on with the job for years, what job I'm not sure of, burning money and stuffing things up I guess. I don't think we want any more of her understanding of "getting on with the job" any more we want her to get on with the job of vacating the Lodge.

Also Kevin sent a message, "how's that getting the Labor party back on track thing going Julia ?"


----------



## MrBurns

The Libs should erect a bronze of Gillard outside Parliament house inscribed. 

"With thanks to Julia Gillard for ensuring Lib rule for the next 10 years at least"


----------



## Bushman

MrBurns said:


> The Libs should erect a bronze of Gillard outside Parliament house inscribed.
> 
> "With thanks to Julia Gillard for ensuring Lib rule for the next 10 years at least"




+1

Ha ha, yes a gift from the gods for the Libs and for those running Union slush funds.


----------



## Aussiejeff

> *TREASURER Wayne Swan says Australians can take confidence from another set of solid economic growth numbers*.
> 
> The economy expanded 0.6 per cent in the March quarter, although this was slower than expected.




Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...id/story-e6frfku9-1226657758006#ixzz2VK1vkvhr

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!! I can't take this $hite anymore!!


----------



## Calliope

Be ready for a barrage of boss-bashing ACTU ads starting tonight on The Origin broadcast.

Andrew Bolt asks;



> Why are there still bastard bosses after years of the most pro-union Labor Government in decades?  What more does the ACTU want from this lot?




I suppose they have to waste their members' money and slush funds on something.


----------



## bellenuit

*Another Labor Meltdown*


----------



## drsmith

Scott Morrison can't compete with the entertainment emanating from the house of Labor,


----------



## bigdog

*I can believe what Pickering has reported today *
http://pickeringpost.com/article/someones-asleep-at-the-wheel/1459

*SOMEONE'S ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL*
Larry Pickering





As illegal immigration becomes the major election issue, a culture of indifference by authorities as to who enters our borders has slowly emerged. Here’s just one reason why... explained by one of many exasperated AFP whistle-blowers.

“Giving them phones was an expensive way to discover who they are but if they arrived by boat without any form of ID it was really the only way we had”, according to the AFP officer. “But now it’s all gone wrong!”

Millions of dollars spent on supplying phones and paying for calls (up to $20,000 a quarter for a single male detainee) has allowed ASIO to track their contacts via conversations and texts back to family members.

“ ...they got smart, they used coded messages, but by using interpreters we could mostly figure out what they were saying... well, that’s when we could trust the interpreters. 

“Some of them spent 8 hours every day on the phone and we needed a full-time person plus an interpreter for each detainee to try to unscramble it all”, said the officer who spent 18 months at a major detention centre. 

He asked that I not name the centre.

There was frustration and hopelessness in his demeanour as he explained the process in past tense: 

“Sometimes we knew they were up to no good but if we knocked them back they just used the appeals process to have our security rulings overturned. 

"It was almost impossible to legally prove intent when they talked in coded stuff and in different dialects. Now it’s just one big mess. Everyone’s given up. 

"These guys are too smart and we have made it easier for them.”

Was frustration the reason he asked for a transfer? 
“Yeah, it’s a crazy system. These guys threw any ID they had overboard knowing it would take us months, even years, to discover who they were and in the meantime they were allowed to live in our suburbs on bridging visas with 89% of the Newstart allowance and all sorts of other ****.

“The worst part is when we know there’s something dodgy about a detainee but we can’t legally prove it. We have to ignore it or we get tied up with one guy in an appeals tribunal instead of rushing to try to process the thousands of waiting arrivals before they get released on these damned bridging visas.

    “It’s reached a stage now that, unless you were Osama bin Laden’s Imam, they will wave you through. There’s just too many of them.”

It appears from many other sources of information, the processing of illegal immigrants has become nigh impossible and those responsible for border control have all but given up.

It’s another classic case of throwing voluminous amounts money at a problem and simply walking away from it.

Deceiving our security protocols has become an Islamic art form. 

Cell phones might have been a bright idea initially but with tens of thousands used for free calls to each other, and back to their countries of origin, they now know more about us than we do about them.

Immigration has built Australia, we need it and welcome it but we must know who our immigrants are.

The moneyed Islamists have discovered a way to reside here, unidentified, while destitute, legitimate refugees sit rotting and starving in cages in Malaysia.

You can forget Labor’s museum of other disasters, unless this one is fixed soon we better start looking for another island.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd calling for discipline ??
> 
> http://www.google.com/news?ncl=dzWmSLxx7MmZx2McoHz37z7KZQUsM&q=kevin+rudd&lr=English&hl=en
> [/url]




It's good to see Kev out there with the calming hand, bringing about order to his disfunctional party. lol, cough,lol


----------



## MrBurns

> Labor MPs Alan Griffin and Daryl Melham pack up their offices ahead of election
> 
> Two former Labor frontbenchers have packed up their Parliament House offices, but deny it is a sign they have given up all hope of retaining their seats at the next federal election.
> 
> Alan Griffin and Daryl Melham have told the ABC they have not given up, but have confirmed they have packed up their offices in case they lose their seats on September 14.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-06/labor-mps-pack-up-their-offices-ahead-of-election/4736524

Makes me think of the theme from Rawhide............

Keep movin', movin', movin', 
Though they're disapprovin', 
Keep them doggies movin' Rawhide! 
Don't try to understand 'em, 
Just rope and throw and grab 'em, 
Soon we'll be living high and wide. 


Move 'em on, head 'em up, 
Head 'em up, move 'em out, 
Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!


----------



## sptrawler

It looks as though the penny is really starting to drop, there must be anxiety attacks all round at the moment.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/exlabor-pollster-tips-epic-disaster-20130605-2nqlb.html


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-06/labor-mps-pack-up-their-offices-ahead-of-election/4736524
> 
> Makes me think of the theme from Rawhide............
> 
> Keep movin', movin', movin',
> Though they're disapprovin',
> Keep them doggies movin' Rawhide!
> Don't try to understand 'em,
> Just rope and throw and grab 'em,
> Soon we'll be living high and wide.
> 
> 
> Move 'em on, head 'em up,
> Head 'em up, move 'em out,
> Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!





Great show in it's day. Ahhh memories........


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> It looks as though the penny is really starting to drop, there must be anxiety attacks all round at the moment.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/exlabor-pollster-tips-epic-disaster-20130605-2nqlb.html







> ''When they reaffirmed Julia Gillard's leadership, they really were turkeys voting for Christmas - and what a Christmas it will be


----------



## sptrawler

Well at last labor has sorted the two speed economy, W.A has the biggest economic contraction in 30 years.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/17497925/economy-takes-biggest-hit-in-decade/

Wayne should write a book when he leaves office, in September, "How to stuff an economy 101".

Or maybe "100 ways to talk up failure", another one could be "What happens when the batteries run flat in the magic wand".
We could possibly start a thread on Wayne's wonderfull book titles.


----------



## bigdog

http://pickeringpost.com/article/-/1466  Thank you Paul Zanetti

*Your are invited to a party on September 14*


----------



## Calliope

It's hard to believe these two could share any sort of affection. They deserve each other.



I'm just a gigolo and everywhere I go
People know the part, I'm playin'
Paid for every dance, sellin' each romance
Ooh, what they're sayin'

There will come a day, and youth will pass away
What'll they say about me?
When the end comes I know they'll say just a gigolo
And life goes on without me


----------



## drsmith

Kevin Rudd to appear on the ABC's 7:30 tonight while Julia Gillard looks worried about the whereabouts of the kitchen knives, again.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-wrap-june-6-2013-20130606-2nrdg.html


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd to appear on the ABC's 7:30 tonight while Julia Gillard looks worried about the whereabouts of the kitchen knives, again.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-wrap-june-6-2013-20130606-2nrdg.html




Jeez doc, she doesn't look too happy.lol

Anthony is probably just having an emotional sob and Kevs comforting him.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> Jeez doc, she doesn't look too happy.lol



Beyond the raw entertainment value, I won't be if Kevin Rudd knocks her off. 

After all this time, the electorate should get its say on her prime-ministership.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Beyond the raw entertainment value, I won't be if Kevin Rudd knocks her off.
> 
> After all this time, the electorate should get its say on her prime-ministership.




That would cause absolute chaos in the party, I can't see it happening.

But as you say, people should get the opportunity to vote on her and her parties performance. 
Also Oakeshott, Windsor, Wilkie and the Greens should have the opportunity to stand shoulder to shoulder with her, at the time of reckoning.


----------



## drsmith

The following article looks like it has quotes from the ABC's 7:30 KR segment.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...says-he-will-not-launch-leadership-challenge/

It's not quiet an upfront job application, but one does have to wonder why he's jockeying for the air time.


----------



## drsmith

I know that comments from a opposing party should be taken with a grain of salt, but I suspect Malcolm Turnbull is on the money here.



> MALCOLM TURNBULL: ............I think - I say this to you that I think the tragedy of Labor is that personal hatreds and animosities run so deep that they have totally overwhelmed their common interest; they've totally overwhelmed their natural human instinct for survival. The hatred - I'll tell you, there was one Labor person said to me the other day, said that in his earlier life he'd been a divorce lawyer and he gave up being a divorce lawyer because he couldn't handle just the bitterness and hatred that you see sadly all too often in divorce and he gave that up and he said to me, you know, the hatred in our party room makes the most unhappy, vicious, bitter divorce look like a picnic and that's Labor's tragedy.




http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3774681.htm

Kevin Rudd's motivation above all else may be to drag a smouldering Julia Gillard from the charred wreckage and personally put the stake through her political heart. 



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-06/rudd-denies-being-to-blame-for-labor-polling/4738486


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> The following article looks like it has quotes from the ABC's 7:30 KR segment.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...says-he-will-not-launch-leadership-challenge/
> 
> It's not quiet an upfront job application, but one does have to wonder why he's jockeying for the air time.




I suppose it could be a last ditch effort, now that a few of Labor power players have gone public against the Gillard power base. Maybe push an overthrow from the back bench.
I certainly hope not.


----------



## drsmith

sptrawler said:


> I suppose it could be a last ditch effort, now that a few of Labor power players have gone public against the Gillard power base. Maybe push an overthrow from the back bench.
> I certainly hope not.



Even he would realise he couldn't win an election from here, so all that's left is vindication and revenge.

Hopefully the majority of the Caucus see it that way as well and pass on this one.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd to appear on the ABC's 7:30 tonight while Julia Gillard looks worried about the whereabouts of the kitchen knives, again.






drsmith said:


> Beyond the raw entertainment value, I won't be if Kevin Rudd knocks her off.
> 
> After all this time, the electorate should get its say on her prime-ministership.






drsmith said:


> The following article looks like it has quotes from the ABC's 7:30 KR segment.
> 
> It's not quiet an upfront job application, but one does have to wonder why he's jockeying for the air time.




When introducing KR, Leigh Sales said he had only accepted the invitation to appear if he was permitted to talk about the summit between the American and Chinese leaders, not just the domestic Australian situation.
So she obliged and asked some obvious questions in this regard.  This gave KR the opportunity to sound as though he was still either Prime Minister or at the very least Foreign Minister, as he pontificated on what he thought these two nations needed to do.
So we have an Australian back bencher still attempting to remain relevant on the international stage, even if only for the consumption of a local audience.

Then inevitably he was asked the perpetual question:  would he continue to assure the nation that he would not challenge Julia Gillard.  His response, carefully repeated despite multiple phrasings of the question by Sales, was that what he said earlier this year has not changed.  This is distinct from saying "No, I will never again aspire to be Prime Minister of Australia" or even "No, I will never again aspire to lead the Labor Party."

Why has he, in the immediate aftermath of Gillard's worst poll, sought publicity yet again?
My guess is that certainly he will not challenge her before the election, but he is lining himself up to be begged to take the leadership after she has owned the ultimate defeat on September 14.

And on the other side, Christopher Pyne made a total idiot of himself by announcing to the media that KR was going to appear on 7.30 and that he had it on good authority from Labor sources that Ms Gillard had demanded equal time.  Leigh Sales quickly dismissed this - it simply didn't happen.

Stupid on the part of Mr Pyne.


----------



## drsmith

This is one of those occasions where Christopher Pyne would have been well served by some duct tape. Talk about come in spinner. :frown:



> LEIGH SALES: If you don't say a blank no, people of course interpret it as you leaving wiggle room.
> 
> KEVIN RUDD: Well, you know exactly what I've said in the past to these questions time and time and time again and you'll play word games all the way through. Last time I said in February of 2012 that I would not be challenging the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister won that caucus ballot by two-to-one. It was a convincing and strong win. I've accepted the result.




Hmmm, we have to go all the way back there.

It's a job application. His leadership ambitions have been transferred from the cryogenic freeze into the shower cubicle. It's an invitation to his party to turn on the hot water and put Julia Gillard out in the cold.



> LEIGH SALES: You say that they're strong points for re-election, but the public doesn't seem to be buying it. Have voters stopped listening to Julia Gillard?
> 
> KEVIN RUDD: Well you know the great saying in politics that a week is a very long time in politics, well let me tell you, 100 days is an eternity. We have an opportunity - all of us, the Prime Minister, ministers of the Government, backbenchers such as myself, to argue the case for the Labor Party. Others can provide the commentary as to who is being listened to or not. My job is to put the case for Labor. It's a strong case on its merits, as opposed to one which has been constructed on a tissue of lies as we have in the case of Mr Abbott's campaign.




He chose his words carefully here, but he's looking for a personal leadership thaw before the election.

He's either completely delusional about the prospect of election victory under his leadership or he's out for revenge against the redhead that knifed his prime-ministership. I still think it's the latter. Revenge is a dish that is best served cold. It's very cold in Canberra in winter.

He's Uncle Psychopath and he's there to help.


----------



## Calliope

Feisty falls flat!



> When Australia's first female Prime Minister lost it in parliament last year and unleashed a withering attack on Tony Abbott over misogyny, the feisty Julia, at her aggressive best, was applauded from her backbench.
> 
> Yesterday, being feisty fell flat - there was no conviction in her thought or voice and her argument was greeted with mocking laughter from the opposition.
> 
> On the Labor side, there were no whoops of delight and high-fives from her colleagues, just sullen looks and silence.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...s-pm-misses-mood/story-e6frg75f-1226658967992


----------



## Logique

It's an utterly bizarre situation. 

Rudd - I think is engaging in _schadenfreude_, in respect of both the PM and the party. But possibly he is lobbying for a senior cabinet post after the election. I think Albanese or Shorten will be Opposition leader.  And who knows...pre-election, what has he got to lose? The Rudds have just sold their Canberra house.

Gillard - with due respect, but I've given up trying to understand her. But as we know, strong Union links, and they'll want their _pound of flesh_ from the PM before Labor are eventually turfed out.

Timmy - I'd be making hay too, while the sun shines.


----------



## MrBurns

Rudd is now more in the media, seeing him more , hearing him more what a great reminder of what a goose he is and how utterly wrong he would be as PM or local Mayor for that matter.

Labor party has given us Mark Latham, Rudd and now Gillard..............this incompetence would only be tolerated in political life, the private sector would have sorted them out ages ago.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> Rudd is now more in the media, seeing him more , hearing him more what a great reminder of what a goose he is and how utterly wrong he would be as PM or local Mayor for that matter.
> 
> Labor party has given us Mark Latham, Rudd and now Gillard..............this incompetence would only be tolerated in political life, the private sector would have sorted them out ages ago.




Can you imagine the News Headlines " Batt Man Returns". lol


----------



## sptrawler

Wayns Swan telling everyone, everything is fine, the economy is strong. 
Just shows how out of touch he really is, with public sentiment.
Mining coming off the boil, Ford closing down, now this.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-...-bust-in-new-april-record-20130606-2nss7.html

They are the only ones listening to their spin, it's about time they grew up and stood down. Where is a tardis, when you need one, come on September.


----------



## Calliope

Hysteria is setting in. Plibersek goes crazy.


----------



## sptrawler

She certainly sounds a bit touchy, implosion imminent.


----------



## Macquack

sptrawler said:


> Can you imagine the News Headlines " Batt Man Returns". lol




SP, you are a comedian as well as a bright "spark".


----------



## drsmith

An essential selection criteria for leadership within the Labor party.



> Kevin Rudd's a lunatic, says Mark Latham




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-leadership-push/story-fn59niix-1226659165519


----------



## Calliope

All this Whooping and Hollering about a Coalition victory on 14 September is a bit premature. Sure, it will be a victory at the polls, but nowhere else. Forget about mandates. Adam Bandt says the Greens and the unions will continue to run the country their way. He doesn't give a stuff what the electorate says. The scary bit is that the Greens will still hold the balance of power in the Senate after the election and probably after 1st July 2014.

This means, of course, that all Gillard's anti-employer policies will stay in place.



> THE cornerstones of Tony Abbott's workplace policy, including an assault on unions and increased criminal penalties for unlawful conduct, will be blocked after the Greens declared they would use their balance of power to oppose the changes.
> 
> Deputy leader Adam Bandt said the Greens, who will hold the balance of power in the Senate until at least July next year, would not support four key elements of the Coalition's workplace policy, including changes that would allow workers to trade off conditions, such as penalty rates, more easily.
> 
> In an interview with The Weekend Australian, Mr Bandt said the Greens had a "different position" from the Opposition Leader in other key areas, including the Coalition's plan for a new registered organisations commission.
> 
> He also supported the new Road Safety Remuneration Tribunal, which the Coalition has indicated it might scrap.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ock-on-ir-policy/story-fn59niix-1226659652653


----------



## drsmith

The Greens will also stand in the way of the Coalition removing the carbon tax. 

The first question will be what the remnants of a battered and bruised Labor does.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> The Greens will also stand in the way of the Coalition removing the carbon tax.
> 
> The first question will be what the remnants of a battered and bruised Labor does.



Greg Combet has already said unequivocally that they will oppose the removal of the carbon tax.

Looks like rocky times ahead for the Coalition.  I doubt they'll be smiling the smile of victory for too long.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Greg Combet has already said unequivocally that they will oppose the removal of the carbon tax.



What they say and what they do could well be two different things.

It will depend on the magnitude of the initial pounding they cop from the electorate and the resultant taste of what's left of them has for seconds.


----------



## Calliope

They've tried every dirty trick in the book to destroy Abbott. As a last resort they are trying the old "if looks could kill" strategy


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> What they say and what they do could well be two different things.
> 
> It will depend on the magnitude of the initial pounding they cop from the electorate and the resultant taste of what's left of them has for seconds.




If the Greens say they will stop the scrapping of the Carbon Tax it could well backfire at the ballot box.


----------



## drsmith

I'd hate to see the looks Kevin gets.



Calliope said:


> They've tried every dirty trick in the book to destroy Abbott. As a last resort they are trying the old "if looks could kill" strategy
> 
> View attachment 52713


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> If the Greens say they will stop the scrapping of the Carbon Tax it could well backfire at the ballot box.




IMO the greens won't decide on tactics, untill they see voter backlash at the election.
If they are hammered, which I think they will be, they wouldn't dare have a double dissillusion election called.
It appears to only now be sinking in with Labor and the Greens, how much they are despised.
It has been a shocking misjudgement by Labor tacticians, to delay the election, when all the indicators were pointing south.
The Greens have jumped ship, but polling would indicate they have again been relagated to a fringe party again.
It is going to be hard for voters to vote anything other than the coalition. That is why Abbott is pushing the stable government barrow.
Nobody in their right mind wants to go through the fiasco of the last six years again.

That is appart from asylum seekers.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> IMO the greens won't decide on tactics, untill they see voter backlash at the election.
> If they are hammered, which I think they will be, they wouldn't dare have a double dissillusion election called.




You think so?



> Newspoll chief executive Martin O'Shannessy said yesterday that based on current opinion poll results, it was not likely the Coalition would "get control of the Senate very easily" after July 1.
> 
> He said the Greens could pick up an extra Senate spot based on current calculations.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> You think so?




I didn't think we were voting on the senate this year. 
Therefore, if they are hammered in the lower house, they would be reluctant to bring about a upper house spill.Only my opinion.


----------



## drsmith

Hell will freeze over before the Greens give up on their carbon tax.

They're not even fussed about asylum seekers drowning on the way here by boat, as long as most of them make it.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Hell will freeze over before the Greens give up on their carbon tax.
> 
> They're not even fussed about asylum seekers drowning on the way here by boat, as long as most of them make it.




That's why I think the greens will be hammered, only the 'rusted on' will vote for them. The upper middle class chardonay brigade will desert them in droves. IMO


----------



## Julia

sptrawler said:


> I didn't think we were voting on the senate this year.



AFAIK it's a half senate election but any changes don't actually take place until July next year.
Someone else will know more about this.



drsmith said:


> Hell will freeze over before the Greens give up on their carbon tax.



Agree.  It's basic to their ideology.  They will fight to the death for this.  Any notion of them rolling over on it is out of the question imo.


----------



## Aussiejeff

> *JULIA Gillard is to launch a new Women For Gillard campaign based on the United States' successful fundraising movement Women for Obama.*
> 
> An independent campaign arm, partly funded by the Labor Party, the Women For Gillard campaign will seek online "micro-donations" from supporters' credit cards to run digital, print and television ads.



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/na...ma/story-fnii5s3x-1226660633664#ixzz2Vez2SdtZ

Mmmmm...really looking forward to this Tsunami of taxpayer funded propaganda. :1zhelp:
How many dayz2go? :shake::shake:


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> All this Whooping and Hollering about a Coalition victory on 14 September is a bit premature. Sure, it will be a victory at the polls, but nowhere else. Forget about mandates. Adam Bandt says the Greens and the unions will continue to run the country their way. He doesn't give a stuff what the electorate says. The scary bit is that the Greens will still hold the balance of power in the Senate after the election and probably after 1st July 2014.
> This means, of course, that all Gillard's anti-employer policies will stay in place.
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ock-on-ir-policy/story-fn59niix-1226659652653



I was wondering if the Coalition should actually run on a conditional promise of a double dissolution. Something like.. if  the Senate blocks the will of the people, there will be a spill of both houses within 6 months. Puts it out there upfront, no surprises post-election. Gets the mandate from the people.


----------



## Calliope

Not everybody wants to be photographed with Ruddy.


----------



## drsmith

Could this be the ultimate indignity for Wayne Swan,



> For the first time we could have Treasury officially announcing a "budget black hole" before election day.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/busines...martin-parkinson/story-fni0d8gi-1226660589875


----------



## drsmith

Anyone wanting to pay their last respects to the terminally ill Gillard leadership had better do so quickly.

Life support could be turned off at any time.



> The ABC understands Prime Minister Julia Gillard has lost significant support in the Labor caucus.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-09/julia-gillard-loses-significant-support-in-caucus/4742626

ABC Insiders host Barrie Cassidy adds to comments he made on his show this morning,



> The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, has lost significant support in the caucus, with key players now planning when and how she should be approached to step aside.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-09/cassidy---gillard/4742634


----------



## Logique

drsmith said:


> Anyone wanting to pay their last respects to the terminally ill Gillard leadership had better do so quickly.
> Life support could be turned off at any time.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-09/julia-gillard-loses-significant-support-in-caucus/4742626
> 
> ABC Insiders host Barrie Cassidy adds to comments he made on his show this morning,
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-09/cassidy---gillard/4742634



Cassidy makes a convincing case, it will resonate with the Labor caucus. Rudd to lead into the election, but Shorten after the election. Makes a lot of sense (for the ALP), and would save a few seats. But - the PM is one stubborn woman.


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> I was wondering if the Coalition should actually run on a conditional promise of a double dissolution. Something like.. if  the Senate blocks the will of the people, there will be a spill of both houses within 6 months. Puts it out there upfront, no surprises post-election. Gets the mandate from the people.



Good idea.  That would also protect them against post election accusations of "you didn't tell us........."


Logique said:


> Cassidy makes a convincing case, it will resonate with the Labor caucus. Rudd to lead into the election, but Shorten after the election. Makes a lot of sense (for the ALP), and would save a few seats. But - the PM is one stubborn woman.



Do you think Rudd would go for that?  Or is his ego so unshakeable that he wouldn't even consider the possibility of someone else taking the leadership post failure to win?

There's so much against Rudd returning imo.  Not just his pompous, self aggrandising personality, but all the fodder the Coalition would have for their advertising following Rudd's colleagues' deprecating remarks about his pathology some months ago.

And how would the electorate be expected to react to a Party that knifed their leader, only to beseech him to return in order to save them?
I hope Gillard stays right where she is.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> There's so much against Rudd returning imo.  Not just his pompous, self aggrandising personality, but all the fodder the Coalition would have for their advertising following Rudd's colleagues' deprecating remarks about his pathology some months ago.
> 
> And how would the electorate be expected to react to a Party that knifed their leader, only to beseech him to return in order to save them?
> I hope Gillard stays right where she is.



The above highlights why they've stuck with Gillard for so long, but in the end it's all relative. The prospect of a few scorched and tattered beanbags and a bit of false hope as opposed to the prospect of nothing but burnt wreckage may well be enough.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> Good idea.  That would also protect them against post election accusations of "you didn't tell us........."
> 
> Do you think Rudd would go for that?  Or is his ego so unshakeable that he wouldn't even consider the possibility of someone else taking the leadership post failure to win?
> 
> There's so much against Rudd returning imo.  Not just his pompous, self aggrandising personality, but all the fodder the Coalition would have for their advertising following Rudd's colleagues' deprecating remarks about his pathology some months ago.
> 
> And how would the electorate be expected to react to a Party that knifed their leader, only to beseech him to return in order to save them?
> I hope Gillard stays right where she is.




+1 I agree with you Julia, just imagine the flipping of ministers, all of the front bench would have to be removed.
Most of them vented their spleens on national t.v against Rudd.
Removing Swan, even though it would be a welcome move, would be political suicide 100 days out.

They really are dumb, but I don't think they will drop their bundle now, not this close, it would be admission of complete failure over the last three years. 
The coalition would have a field day, "They hate Rudd, but anything is better than Gillard" No I think they are all strapped to the Titanic and they are going down together. 
Maybe a few Independents with them.


----------



## Logique

Here is the link to the No Power Grab website mentioned by Nick Minchin yesterday morning:   http://www.nopowergrab.com.au/  The site urges you to vote NO.

Refers to the Referendum on "recognition of local government" on 14 Sept. In reality, it is a grab for increased federal power over local government. Worse, it seems to have bipartisan support from the federal pollies.

Quote:

VOTE NO TO CANBERRA’S POWER GRAB
Our system of government isn’t perfect, but it has helped make Australia the best country on earth. Now is not the time to remove the restrictions that hold Canberra politicians to account.

Don’t be fooled: This is a massive power grab by Canberra politicians and bureaucrats!

Make no mistake: Letting Canberra control local government will:

  Force Councils to do what’s good for Canberra, not communities

  Harm Local Services

  Increase rates

  Lead to less accountability 

  Lead to more bureaucracy

  And mean even more political buck-passing. 

Politicians are arguing that change is “small” and “practical” – but we know the truth. Changing our Constitution will turn our democracy on its head, and open the doors to a massive power grab by Canberra politicians and bureaucrats to direct local services: Click HERE to learn more about just how this will just make things worse.

Unquote.


----------



## Calliope

Being Opposition leader is the most difficult and least rewarding job in parliament. I can't see a swollen headed egomaniac like Rudd putting up his hand for it and leading a Party where most of the caucus hate him...and with good reason.


----------



## bigdog

*Julia Gillard - It's Over!.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KxcE0CuOay4


----------



## Julia

Logique said:


> Here is the link to the No Power Grab website mentioned by Nick Minchin yesterday morning:   http://www.nopowergrab.com.au/  The site urges you to vote NO.



I heard a radio discussion about this during the week.  The 'expert' being interviewed was, I think, from one of the universities.  He urged that the public should not be guided by federal politicians on this, as they have only their own interests (greater power) in mind.

He gave several examples of how such legislation would allow the Feds to bypass the States in ways that would be very detrimental.  Can't bring these to mind now, but it left a strong impression on me that he was right and in any referendum to vote NO.

He also said it's spurious to suggest the legislation is needed in order for the Commonwealth to give money to local government as they absolutely can do this now.


----------



## drsmith

bigdog said:


> *Julia Gillard - It's Over!.*
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KxcE0CuOay4



There's been a big change in the Sportsbet odds with Kevin Rudd now favoured at $1.50 to lead the ALP to the next election. Julia Gillard is $2.20.

http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting...Australian-Federal-Election-2013/14-3668.html

The punters though got it wrong back in March.


----------



## dutchie

Gee. Bill's sharp

The Daily Telegraph understands Mr Shorten last Friday conceded for the first time to the PM that the government "had problems" after a meeting of the automobile industry in Melbourne.

Thanks for the tip Bill and I agree, the government "had problems".

(definite Labor leader potential there, folks)


----------



## drsmith

The only parts of Bill's anatomy that can make decisions for itself is his bladder and his anus.

He otherwise requires instruction.


----------



## drsmith

Someone needs to tell Tony Windsor that he's now of little use to Labor in this term of government.



> Meanwhile, key independent Tony Windsor confirmed on Monday that if Labor changed leaders, the arrangement he had with the Prime Minister would be ''null and void''.




That could be left to Labor itself.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/shorten-repels-call-to-turn-on-pm-20130609-2ny89.html


----------



## Bintang

What is Ton Windsor on about? His arrangement with Labor has always been 'null and void'.
It's been null of any benefit to the Australian people and void of any common sense from day one.


----------



## Calliope

Bintang said:


> What is Ton Windsor on about? His arrangement with Labor has always been 'null and void'.
> It's been null of any benefit to the Australian people and void of any common sense from day one.




He could come in handy.



> A COUP returning Kevin Rudd to the Labor leadership could put Tony Abbott in the Prime Minister's office even before the September 14 election.
> Mr Abbott's Opposition is considering tactics, should there be a Labor leadership change, with one option being an immediate challenge to the Government through a vote of no-confidence.
> 
> A shift in crossbench support could see Labor lose the vote and Mr Abbott sworn in as Prime Minister with an obligation to quickly call an election



.

http://www.news.com.au/national-new...-before-election/story-fncynjr2-1226661262867


----------



## Julia

dutchie said:


> Gee. Bill's sharp
> 
> The Daily Telegraph understands Mr Shorten last Friday conceded for the first time to the PM that the government "had problems" after a meeting of the automobile industry in Melbourne.
> 
> Thanks for the tip Bill and I agree, the government "had problems".
> 
> (definite Labor leader potential there, folks)


----------



## bellenuit

Calliope said:


> A COUP returning Kevin Rudd to the Labor leadership could put Tony Abbott in the Prime Minister's office even before the September 14 election.
> Mr Abbott's Opposition is considering tactics, should there be a Labor leadership change, with one option being an immediate challenge to the Government through a vote of no-confidence.
> 
> A shift in crossbench support could see Labor lose the vote and Mr Abbott sworn in as Prime Minister with an obligation to quickly call an election.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national-new...-before-election/story-fncynjr2-1226661262867




I'm thinking out loud here, not disagreeing. Excepting being able to prevent the remaining bits of legislation on Gillard's agenda being passed, what would the benefit be to Abbott of gaining the leadership at this stage? He wouldn't be able to push through any legislation of his own as there is nothing that he is proposing (as far as I am aware) that would garner the support of the Greens and independents. He could call an immediate election, but then what difference would that make. One benefit might be the ability to expose the real state of the economy, rather than discover it 6 months down the track after the election is over. One risk is that even when in caretaker mode, he might have to act on illegal boat arrivals even though he hasn't had the opportunity to get the navy up to speed or negotiate with Indonesia / Sri Lanka. He might end up copping the flak for all subsequent arrivals and deaths until election day.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> He could come in handy.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national-new...-before-election/story-fncynjr2-1226661262867



The Greens Adam Bandt would support Labor regardless as would former Labor member Craig Thomson.

As for the others, I'd suggest that the Labor powerbrokers would canvass them in private beforehand and consider their actions on that basis.

I can't imagine Peter Slipper, Tony Windsor, Rob Oakeshott or that other independent windbag handing Tony Abbott the keys to the Lodge. Regardless of their empty noises in public, they've wedded themselves to this government for the duration.

There's also the question of where Bob Katter's loyalties would lie should push come to shove,



> Bob Katter, the colourful federal crossbencher from Queensland, does have the strangest bunch of friends. He and Kevin Rudd – whom Katter would like to see back as PM – are thick as thieves.




http://theconversation.com/bob-katter-the-man-with-friends-in-odd-places-12809

Another option for Kev should he become PM again might be an immediate trip to the GG for a cuppa. The benefit of that if nothing else is that it would bring the election forward.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Someone needs to tell Tony Windsor that he's now of little use to Labor in this term of government
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/shorten-repels-call-to-turn-on-pm-20130609-2ny89.html




Why anyone gives Tony Windsor any airplay, is beyond me, he really appears past his use by date. His "day in the limelight" is over, only he doesn't get it. 
Pass him a rusk.IMO


----------



## sptrawler

She is losing it again, the thought that Australian mainstream women, feel they are being unjustly treated is dumb.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/women-banished-under-abbott-pm-20130611-2o1hc.html

Another blow the feet off occassion coming.lol


----------



## dutchie

sptrawler said:


> She is losing it again, the thought that Australian mainstream women, feel they are being unjustly treated is dumb.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/women-banished-under-abbott-pm-20130611-2o1hc.html
> 
> Another blow the feet off occassion coming.lol





From the Australian:

JULIA Gillard has reopened the gender wars as she fights off speculation about her leadership, declaring that the election of Tony Abbott would make abortion "the political plaything of men who think they know better".

In a speech at the launch of Women for Gillard, a Labor fundraising scheme aimed at female voters, the Prime Minister moved to make gender an election issue, declaring that only Labor could elect a female prime minister and warning that the election of a Coalition government on September 14 would "banish women's voices from our political life".

"I invite you to imagine it: a prime minister - a man in a blue tie - who goes on holidays to be replaced by a man in a blue tie," Ms Gillard said.

"A treasurer who delivers a budget wearing a blue tie, to be supported by a finance minister, another man in a blue tie. Women once again banished from the centre of Australia's political life."

The Prime Minister said the ALP was the party of women. "Labor is the party of equal opportunity," she said.

Arguing that the election of a Coalition government would see childcare, healthcare and superannuation slashed, Ms Gillard said the national disability insurance scheme should not be put "in the custody of a political party that didn't create it".

"Finally, but very importantly, we don't want to live in an Australia where abortion again becomes the political plaything of men who think they know better," Ms Gillard said.



After 3 odd years in the job she still has absolutely no idea of how to be a Prime Minister.

No class at all.

Once a bogan always a bogan.


----------



## db94

just when you think she cant do anything lower and more stupid, she proves us wrong. Labor will take a bit in support from this. This attempt to take down Abbott is embarrassing beyond belief. 

She mentions "men in blue ties" and Rudd and Swan were wearing blue ties that day, could this be a subliminal message?


----------



## Aussiejeff

The colour "blue" is now a dirty, 4 letter word according to Gillard.....

Shame on _you_, JuLiar.....*SHAME!*


----------



## Logique

Blue ties! Head for the hills!


----------



## MrBurns

Yes was a disgraceful effort by Gillard, unbelievable, her weakling colleagues deserve all the embarrassment this will heap upon them.
How dare that man hating b**** talk like that, it's almost like she was recruiting for a lesbian club.


----------



## db94

MrBurns said:


> Yes was a disgraceful effort by Gillard, unbelievable, her weakling colleagues deserve all the embarrassment this will heap upon them.
> How dare that man hating b**** talk like that, it's almost like she was recruiting for a *lesbian club*.




Bit off topic but I have been told by numerous people (some who went to school with her) that she is in fact a lesbian and Tim is just there for show. How accurate that is, I dunno. But after this performance it wouldn't surprise me to be honest.


----------



## MrBurns

db94 said:


> Bit off topic but I have been told by numerous people (some who went to school with her) that she is in fact a lesbian and Tim is just there for show. How accurate that is, I dunno. But after this performance it wouldn't surprise me to be honest.




Who knows and really.........who cares........... at this stage what we know for sure is she's toxic and only goes from bad the worse........Labor must be beside it self with fear at what lies ahead, they'll HAVE to replace her before the election, they have no choice, it wont save them but at least it might show they acknowledge what everyone else knows and that is Gillard is poison.

Women and children are drowning at sea and all she can do is attack Tony Abbott, no one is running Australia at present.


----------



## db94

MrBurns said:


> Who knows and really.........who cares........... at this stage what we know for sure is she's toxic and only goes from bad the worse........Labor must be beside it self with fear at what lies ahead, they'll HAVE to replace her before the election, they have no choice, it wont save them but at least it might show they acknowledge what everyone else knows and that is Gillard is poison.
> 
> Women and children are drowning at sea and all she can do is attack Tony Abbott, no one is running Australia at present.




well said!


----------



## Julia

With her hysterical spray yesterday, she has even ignited the dismay and anger of her feminist fans, women like Eva Cox and Jane Caro, who so strongly supported her misogynist attack.

Wendy Harmer reports receiving emails all yesterday saying "did she really say that?  that's just awful".

Once that final support base has gone, she is really on the ropes.

On the blue tie issue, what was she thinking???  Can't believe she made such a total fool of herself.


----------



## Bintang

Julia said:


> With her hysterical spray yesterday, she has even ignited the dismay and anger of her feminist fans, women like Eva Cox and Jane Caro, who so strongly supported her misogynist attack.
> 
> Wendy Harmer reports receiving emails all yesterday saying "did she really say that?  that's just awful".
> 
> Once that final support base has gone, she is really on the ropes.
> 
> On the blue tie issue, what was she thinking???  Can't believe she made such a total fool of herself.




I think every person who normally wears a tie for whatever purpose should make it a blue one. I certainly will myself and I will wear it proudly.


----------



## Calliope

Obviously McTernan is the author of this "blue" bullsh!t, as he was of the "misogynist" crap and the Canberra riot where she lost her boot. She should cancel his 757 work visa and deport him as an undesirable. I think he has done more harm than Rudd, Bruce Wilson, Slipper and Thomson combined in destroying Julia's reputation.


----------



## matty77

Rudd was wearing a blue tie today - just saying..


----------



## Bintang

matty77 said:


> Rudd was wearing a blue tie today - just saying..




I would like to see at least a 100,000 male protesters descend on Canberra, all wearing blue ties and carrying placards that denounce Julia Gillard's misandry.


----------



## Calliope

Is there no end to Liberal misogyny?  



> A "DEEPLY" sexist menu describing Prime Minister Julia Gillard as a quail with "small breasts, huge thighs and a big red b*x" was presented to a Liberal Party fundraising dinner.




A deeply offended Kevin Rudd  "called on Mal Brough to donate all the funds from the fundraiser to the RSPCA."... apparently in support of the slandered quails.

- See more at: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...y-fni0xqrb-1226662420543#sthash.xJmog2TL.dpuf


----------



## Bintang

Calliope said:


> Is there no end to Liberal misogyny?




Why is it misogyny? They were only poking fun at Julia Gillard. The remarks were not directed at ALL women.


----------



## dutchie

If your going to advertise the Liberal Party you should at least wear a blue tie.


Just like these blokes


----------



## db94

Calliope said:


> Is there no end to Liberal misogyny?
> 
> 
> 
> A deeply offended Kevin Rudd  "called on Mal Brough to donate all the funds from the fundraiser to the RSPCA."... apparently in support of the slandered quails.
> 
> - See more at: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...y-fni0xqrb-1226662420543#sthash.xJmog2TL.dpuf




this is just a joke. not really a shot at women. news will have a field day on this one though.


----------



## dutchie

These blokes would at least look the part if they wore_ red_ underpants on their heads.


----------



## Calliope

Bintang said:


> Why is it misogyny? They were only poking fun at Julia Gillard. The remarks were not directed at ALL women.




No, but what about collateral damage to the poor innocent quail? And the same menu referred to a Rudd dish as goose. This is sexist. I thought he was a gander.


----------



## Julia

Bintang said:


> Why is it misogyny? They were only poking fun at Julia Gillard. The remarks were not directed at ALL women.



Whether you consider it misogyny or not (and I take your point that it wasn't directed toward all women), it was in the worst possible taste and imo absolutely offensive, particularly "the big red b*x" part.
If Mal Brough approved that, he has been much reduced in my estimation.

There is plenty of scope for legitimately criticising Julia Gillard without  having to resort to such childish smut.


----------



## moXJO

Julia said:


> Whether you consider it misogyny or not (and I take your point that it wasn't directed toward all women), it was in the worst possible taste and imo absolutely offensive, particularly "the big red b*x" part.
> If Mal Brough approved that, he has been much reduced in my estimation.
> 
> There is plenty of scope for legitimately criticising Julia Gillard without  having to resort to such childish smut.




Agree, there is no need for it.
Libs have held it together pretty well so far and from what I know this was written by someone outside the lib party. Even so it only takes a few dumb comments to give labor some ammo. And lets face it labor know how to play in the dirt a lot better.


----------



## Bintang

Julia said:


> Whether you consider it misogyny or not (and I take your point that it wasn't directed toward all women), it was in the worst possible taste and imo absolutely offensive, particularly "the big red b*x" part.
> If Mal Brough approved that, he has been much reduced in my estimation.
> 
> There is plenty of scope for legitimately criticising Julia Gillard without  having to resort to such childish smut.




I  am not disagreeing with you. It was in poor taste and dumb. But I AM objecting to the fact that any criticism of Julia Gillard or any expressed dislike of Julia Gillard is labelled as misogyny.   I for example dislike her intensely but that does not make me a misogynist or any other male who is like minded towards her.


----------



## bellenuit

I still think whoever was behind that menu was utterly stupid. 

Instead of the media being 100% talking about Gillard's stupid remarks from yesterday, they are now spending half the time talking about the menu incident. I would almost think it a Labor party plot, except that from experience I know the Liberals are quite capable of shooting themselves in the foot at the most inappropriate times.


----------



## Quincy

Australian politics - 2013 - just pathetic.


----------



## moXJO

Quincy said:


> Australian politics - 2013 - just pathetic.




That was my thought as well. Her going on her anti man rant yesterday out of the blue and then the menu surfacing today is just a bit too close a coincidence


----------



## Logique

Julia said:


> Whether you consider it misogyny or not (and I take your point that it wasn't directed toward all women), it was in the worst possible taste and imo absolutely offensive, particularly "the big red b*x" part.
> If Mal Brough approved that, he has been much reduced in my estimation.
> 
> There is plenty of scope for legitimately criticising Julia Gillard without  having to resort to such childish smut.



Agree completely. They should have known better.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> If Mal Brough approved that, he has been much reduced in my estimation.
> 
> .




If he approved it he's an idiot and should go.


----------



## Miss Hale

When was this function?  I am getting a whiff of a set up of some kind with this menu business. 

(Goes without saying I don't condone this kind of personal insult)


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> ...
> If Mal Brough approved that, he has been much reduced in my estimation....





+1

Very disappointed in Brough if this is true.


----------



## db94

Miss Hale said:


> When was this function?  I am getting a whiff of a set up of some kind with this menu business.
> 
> (Goes without saying I don't condone this kind of personal insult)




this! Gillard claims libs are misogynsts, back fires and now this magical menu appears...


----------



## Bintang

Miss Hale said:


> (Goes without saying I don't condone this kind of personal insult)




I don't either. It's really hurtful towards quails and should be referred to the RSPCA.


----------



## Calliope

Bintang said:


> I don't either. It's really hurtful towards quails and should be referred to the RSPCA.




The quail is a delicate little bird. Phillip Adams who is s great friend of Rudd, and couldn't possibly be labelled a misogynist, says Julia reminds him of a buff orpington. I don't agree of course.


----------



## IFocus

Bintang said:


> I  am not disagreeing with you. It was in poor taste and dumb. But I AM objecting to the fact that any criticism of Julia Gillard or any expressed dislike of Julia Gillard is labelled as misogyny.   I for example dislike her intensely but that does not make me a misogynist or any other male who is like minded towards her.





I believe the attack was directed at Gillards feminine body parts not just attacking her in a general sense.


----------



## banco

MrBurns said:


> If he approved it he's an idiot and should go.




We already knew Mal Brough was as thick as **** from the clumsy way he left his fingerprints all over the ashby affair.


----------



## MrBurns

banco said:


> We already knew Mal Brough was as thick as **** from the clumsy way he left his fingerprints all over the ashby affair.





I very much doubt he would have seen it and approved it, no one is that stupid.


----------



## MrBurns

IFocus said:


> I believe the attack was directed at Gillards feminine body parts not just attacking her in a general sense.




That joke has been doing the rounds for a long time, then as we see it found it's way onto a menu, I'm surprised the ABC published it, it's very offensive and not suitable for publication.


----------



## Miss Hale

db94 said:


> this! Gillard claims libs are misogynsts, back fires and now this magical menu appears...




Seems this was from March, why did it just appear now?


----------



## drsmith

Miss Hale said:


> Seems this was from March, why did it just appear now?



Especially a day after Julia Gillard's abortion and men in blue ties rant.

Both are examples of student level political silliness, but she's the PM. 

Mud everywhere, but as always, labor under her leadership seems to end up with more on itself than anywhere else.

I also noticed someone not playing ball,


----------



## noco

MrBurns said:


> I very much doubt he would have seen it and approved it, no one is that stupid.




Who ever set up the menu may have been a Labor plant to embarrass Mal Brough of which he (Mal) may not have known about.

Nothing would surprise me with those Labor people just like the aboriginal caper on Abbott.

It has been a set up in my opinion and hope Mal Brough gets to the bottom of it all. This is something that took place back in March so why has it taken Labor so long to bring it to the fore?

I am very suspsicious about the whole affair.


----------



## banco

noco said:


> Who ever set up the menu may have been a Labor plant to embarrass Barnby Joyce of which he( Barnaby) may not have known about.
> 
> Nothing would surprise me with those Labor people just like the aboriginal caper on Abbott.
> 
> It has been a set up in my opinion and hope Branaby Joyce gets to the bottom of it all.




You're not serious are you? (speaking of epic stupidity)


----------



## drsmith

Labor conspiracy or stuff up ?

99 times out of 100 it's a stuff up.



> LNP candidate and former Howard government minister Mal Brough has confirmed the menu comes from a fundraiser held for him in March.




From the same article,



> Joe Hockey says he does not recall seeing the menu and said the Prime Minister is not in a position to judge. "She pretty much called me [and my colleagues] misogynist pigs," Mr Hockey told reporters a short time ago. "No sanctimonious lectures from [Prime Minister Gillard] who called me a fat man in Parliament."




That was from 2006, but then Julia Gillard doesn't mind bashing Tony Abbott over the head about what he's said in the past.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/17566936/joe-hockey-denies-knowledge-of-crude-menu/


----------



## Miss Hale

Just heard on 7.30 on the ABC that this was a mock menu that never appeared at the dinner, which would explain why Brough and Hockey didn't see it.  Slowly the real story is coming out and it's looking more like cynical opportunism from Labor to take the attention off them.


----------



## wayneL

Miss Hale said:


> Just heard on 7.30 on the ABC that this was a mock menu that never appeared at the dinner, which would explain why Brough and Hockey didn't see it.  Slowly the real story is coming out and it's looking more like cynical opportunism from Labor to take the attention off them.




If so, that's really dirty pool.


----------



## Calliope

Gillard's attack on Mal Brough has fallen in a heap.



> THE owner of the restaurant at the centre of a scandal over a sexist menu has reportedly apologised to Mal Brough, saying he created a mock menu as a light-hearted joke.
> 
> The LNP on Wednesday night released an apology from Joe Richards, of the Richards and Richards restaurant, saying the  menus were never distributed at the $1000 a head fundraiser featuring Joe Hockey.
> 
> "Dear Mal, I have been following the rubbish that has been on the news today,'' the letter from Joe Richards reads.
> 
> "I would like to confirm what actually happened: there were never any menus distributed on the tables or in the restaurant.
> 
> "I created a mock menu myself as a light-hearted joke, however as I said I never produced them for public distribution.
> 
> "Unfortunately a staff member saw the mock menu, and unbeknownst to myself, posted it on their Facebook.
> 
> "It now appears that a third party for political reasons has distributed it, yet I can reassure you that no such menu was distributed on the night.
> 
> "As you know no one at the dinner was privy to such a menu, and it is so unfortunate that an in-house joke between myself and my son has caused you great problems and embarrassment.




http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/news/calls-mal-brough-be-dumped-lnp-over-sexist-menu/1904581/


----------



## db94

Miss Hale said:


> Just heard on 7.30 on the ABC that this was a mock menu that never appeared at the dinner, which would explain why Brough and Hockey didn't see it.  Slowly the real story is coming out and it's looking more like cynical opportunism from Labor to take the attention off them.




wow haha. cant wait for the election to come and be over, each week it just gets more crazy


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Gillard's attack on Mal Brough has fallen in a heap.



Oh dear.

No Labor conspiracy, but someone has well and truly helped the PM to shoot herself in the foot.

I can see Kevin Rudd out in a brighter blue tie tomorrow.


----------



## MrBurns

delete


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Just heard on 7.30 on the ABC that this was a mock menu that never appeared at the dinner, which would explain why Brough and Hockey didn't see it.  Slowly the real story is coming out and it's looking more like cynical opportunism from Labor to take the attention off them.




Yes that shut them all up, I wish someone had spoken up earlier.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Yes that shut them all up, I wish someone had spoken up earlier.



Enough rope. 

Now we can sit back and watch them swing, Kevin Rudd included.



> Mr Rudd, speaking in Sydney, launched a scathing attack on Mr Brough, saying he should donate the money raised from the fund-raiser to the RSPCA.




http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opi...rough-over-offensive-menu-20130612-2o36d.html


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Enough rope.
> 
> Now we can sit back and watch them swing.




and swing they will


----------



## sails

Found this on Bolt's blog - at first Bolt, like many of us here, was quick to denounce such a stupid act.  If this letter from the restaurant chairman is the truth, Brough was unaware of this apparent prank.



> UPDATE
> 
> I may owe Brough an apology. The chairman of the restaurant which held the fundraiser says the menu was a private joke and Bough did not see it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Mal,
> 
> I have been following the rubbish that has been on the news today. I would like to confirm what actually happened: there were never any menus distributed on the tables or in the restaurant. I created a mock menu myself as a light-hearted joke, however as I said I never produced them for public distribution. Unfortunately a staff member saw the mock menu, and unbeknownst to myself, posted it on their facebook. It now appears that a third party for political reasons has distributed it, yet I can reassure you that no such menu was distributed on the night. As you know no one at the dinner was privy to such a menu, and it is so unfortunate that an in-house joke between myself and my son has caused you great problems and embarrassment.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Joe Richards
> 
> Chairman
Click to expand...



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...nts/mal_brough_complete_turkey_or_sexist_pig/

DrSmith - you beat me to it...lol


----------



## drsmith

sails said:


> Found this on Bolt's blog - at first Bolt, like many of us here, was quick to denounce such a stupid act.  If this letter from the restaurant chairman is the truth, Brough was unaware of this apparent prank.



I was in that camp too as I saw it evolve during the day.

Perhaps a product of seeing politicians and/or their staff doing seemingly stupid things all too often.


----------



## MrBurns

I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to have that at a Lib political dinner but why didn't people speak up sooner ?.........ahh yes "enough rope" thanks drsmith


----------



## drsmith

Some more info on the guy that posted it (Crikey blog earlier today),



> The source of the menu shot, on Twitter as @chef09876, had copied it from the Facebook page of the executive chef of the restaurant where a Brough fundraiser, featuring shadow treasurer Joe Hockey, was held on March 28. Despite the timing, a link to the ALP or the Prime Minister’s Office isn’t clear, although the tweeter is clearly an ALP supporter.




http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/12/bad-taste-broughs-bill-of-misogynystic-fare/

and the guy's facebook page.

https://twitter.com/chef09876


----------



## Country Lad

Never mind, Gillard will apologise to Mal Brough, Tony Abbott and all of the Liberal Party for her harsh words just as any responsible person would do.

She will won't she?

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Calliope

I thought Leigh Sales interview with Janet Albrechtsen and one of Gillard's women was very good. Albrechtsen will take no nonsense from anyone.

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/?gclid=CPGCg76r3rcCFYYhpQodIxgAjQ#/view/39732

Sails, Gillard is not the only one who grasped the opportunity to denigrate Mal Brough. I happen to know him well and he is a far more decent and caring man than his numerous detractors, including that opportunist Bolt.



> Found this on Bolt's blog - at first Bolt, like many of us here, was quick to denounce such a stupid act. If this letter from the restaurant chairman is the truth, Brough was unaware of this apparent prank.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to have that at a Lib political dinner but why didn't people speak up sooner ?.........ahh yes "enough rope" thanks drsmith




It was the timing of it that set alarms bells ringing for me.  If it had actually appeared at the dinner it would have been public straight away.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> I thought Leigh Sales interview with Janet Albrechtsen and one of Gillard's women was very good. Albrechtsen will take no nonsense from anyone.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/iview/?gclid=CPGCg76r3rcCFYYhpQodIxgAjQ#/view/39732




I think I'm in love with Albrechtsen she really is good, Leigh Sales I do love ...........she doesn't look well to me ???


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> It was the timing of it that set alarms bells ringing for me.  If it had actually appeared at the dinner it would have been public straight away.




Very true Miss Hale.


----------



## drsmith

A curious update on Andrew Bolt's blog,



> UPDATE
> 
> But someone called “Gus Jones” emailed us on 2GB saying he was a partner of one of the guests and saw the menu handed around, and Brough laughing at it.
> 
> I have no idea of the truth of this. It’s odd that he lives in West Ryde, though, and went to a fundraiser in Brisbane.
> 
> Even more suspicious, his email bounces and his mobile number is false. Sounds the like moral Left is using lies to smear.




http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...plete_turkey_or_sexist_pig/desc/#commentsmore


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Some more info on the guy that posted it (Crikey blog earlier today),
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/12/bad-taste-broughs-bill-of-misogynystic-fare/
> 
> and the guy's facebook page.
> 
> https://twitter.com/chef09876




Just another dumb Labor play, that ends up backfiring as usual, what a way to run a country.


----------



## Miss Hale

MrBurns said:


> I think I'm in love with Albrechtsen she really is good, Leigh Sales I do love ...........she doesn't look well to me ???




Too late, Albrechtsen is taken, her and Michael Kroger are an item


----------



## moXJO

drsmith said:


> Some more info on the guy that posted it (Crikey blog earlier today),
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/12/bad-taste-broughs-bill-of-misogynystic-fare/
> 
> and the guy's facebook page.
> 
> https://twitter.com/chef09876




 Looks like he may have sent it out round the 28th of march.


> No I tried to send it to Julia Gillard & Peter, didn't hear back. So I thought no one was interested




Seems Labor has used it as their last remaining bullet, missing Abbott and hitting themselves in the foot once again. Seems some lefty media might also have known about it as well.


----------



## MrBurns

Well done ABC for not waiting..........



> Brisbane restaurant owner says he wrote sexist menu mocking Prime Minister Julia Gillard




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-12/restaurant-owner-says-he-wrote-sexist-gillard-menu/4750226


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Too late, Albrechtsen is taken, her and Michael Kroger are an item




Good luck ....not sure if he would be enough for her but what would I know ?


----------



## drsmith

moXJO said:


> Looks like he may have sent it out round the 28th of march.



I'd suggest they'll be dedicated souls at the Coalition going through that Twitter page with a fine tooth comb and perhaps a few worried ones at Labor as well.


----------



## bellenuit

If the ABC is aware of the contents of the letter as posted on Bolt's blog, then it should be ashamed of its report on the 7PM News (Perth). After showing all the footage of the condemnation by Labor, it then added at the very end of its report on that subject as an addendum: "The author of the menu has said that it was an inhouse joke between himself and his son and apologised for any embarrassment caused". There was no mention that the author was part of the restaurant staff and no mention that the menu was not put on the tables. Viewers would likely come away thinking it was a Liberal staffer and that the attendees would have been still aware of the menu at that dinner.


----------



## Miss Hale

Might tune in to ABC radio tomorrow morning and see how they try to back peddle from all their outrage today


----------



## moXJO

The whole incident has the same labor stench on it as the Aboriginal tent embassy fiasco that was whipped up by labor.
I'm sure there are games being played on both sides over this.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> Good luck ....not sure if he would be enough for her but what would I know ?




Yes, it does reflect on her taste. He's the clown that Bolt often uses on The Bolt Report, which is even more boring and biased than the Insiders.


----------



## Julia

banco said:


> We already knew Mal Brough was as thick as **** from the clumsy way he left his fingerprints all over the ashby affair.



Might need to retract that comment in view of later developments, banco.



noco said:


> Who ever set up the menu may have been a Labor plant to embarrass Mal Brough of which he (Mal) may not have known about.
> 
> Nothing would surprise me with those Labor people just like the aboriginal caper on Abbott.
> 
> It has been a set up in my opinion and hope Mal Brough gets to the bottom of it all. This is something that took place back in March so why has it taken Labor so long to bring it to the fore?
> 
> I am very suspsicious about the whole affair.



And your suspicious have been shown to be justified.



Country Lad said:


> Never mind, Gillard will apologise to Mal Brough, Tony Abbott and all of the Liberal Party for her harsh words just as any responsible person would do.
> 
> She will won't she?
> 
> Cheers
> Country Lad



I hope you won't be holding your breath in anticipation.

There is, as others have observed, something very fishy about this whole thing.  Why would it come to light the day after Gillard's latest rant if it has been around since March?

Why did the restaurant owner allow the fuss to go on for a whole day before revealing it was a private joke between him and his son?   Apparently he is an LNP donor.  Perhaps that has nothing to do with anything, but the timing of his admission could seem like damage control urged by the LNP/Coalition.

Whatever, it's a pretty unpleasant indication of the dirtiness of the next 90 odd days when apparently neither side will stop at anything.
Australia deserves better.

PS  Thumbs up to Janet Albrechtsen.  Now there is a woman we could do with in politics.


----------



## moXJO

From what I have read there is no hard copy menu, one guy (previous employee I think) took a photo of someones facebook or twitter page (chef at the time) which had the menu on it. He then shopped it round to papers and PMs /members  emails. The guy was talking like he knew it was fact that this menu was handed out, but seems to be guessing as he only took a photo/screenshot and was not actually at the function. So from what it looks like there was only one mock menu made up and the rest is BS.




Not to be taken as fact probably full of holes.


----------



## noco

It is now quite evident, the menu being taunted around by the Labor Party was never distributed to Mal Brough's 30 odd guests, instead it was a doctored menu by the reatrauntant ownwer and his son as an in-house joke. It was later picked up by an ex employee, no doubt a Labor supporter, and placed on Face Book in an endeavour to embarrass the Liberal Party.

I think this will all back fire on Miss Gillard and the Labor Party.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...says-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226662432480


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> I think this will all back fire on Miss Gillard and the Labor Party.




Maybe, but will it backfire on all the gullible posters on this thread who were happy to toe the Gillard sexism and misogyny line just because they hate Mal Brough, and apparently prefer Peter Slipper? Well I am quite sure that on 14 September the electors of Fisher, of whom I am one, will give a resounding decision on that question.


----------



## drsmith

This is the guy who claims to have twittered the article last night,

https://soundcloud.com/702abcsydney/former-venue-worker-andrew

Interesting that he's David Carter on Twitter and Andrew in the above interview. The host acknowledges at the end of the interview that his real name is not Andrew.

I don't know much about Twitter of if this is a genuine Peter Van Olsen. This if from David's Twitter account,



> Peter van Onselen ‏@vanOnselenP  4h
> I wonder if the PM will have the good grace to apologise to Hockey et al for accusing them of involvement in the menu when they weren't?




Craig Emmerson (real or fake I don't know) has also been commenting on this guy's Twitter account.

Peter Van Olsen's piece in The Australian today,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...r-its-time-to-go/story-fn53lw5p-1226662763758


----------



## Logique

This poster was displayed in Tanya Plibersek's office:
http://www.news.com.au/national-new...lectorate-office/story-e6frfkvr-1226377446341 _Tanya Plibersek bans satire but refuses to apologise for 'racist, sexist, homophobic' posters._

A direct slur on Tony Abbott, worse than anything said by a staff member in a QLD retaurant.

Something she might think about, before she points the moral finger at anyone else. It's called hypocrisy Tanya.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Logique said:


> This poster was displayed in Tanya Plibersek's office:
> http://www.news.com.au/national-new...lectorate-office/story-e6frfkvr-1226377446341 _Tanya Plibersek bans satire but refuses to apologise for 'racist, sexist, homophobic' posters._
> 
> A direct slur on Tony Abbott, worse than anything said by a staff member in a QLD retaurant.
> 
> Something she might think about, before she points the moral finger at anyone else. It's called hypocrisy Tanya.
> 
> View attachment 52776




Applying the PM's own fine logic, Tanya Plibersek should be sacked today over such offensive ****. I hope if this is a proven fact (unlike Labor's baseless menu slander), that this gets spread all over the media.

BTW, has JuLiar urgently apologised profusely to Mal Brough, Joe Hockey & the Australian people as a whole, for her & her party's baseless slander with regard to the Menu Affair?

No?

Oh.

I guess that says something about the PM's real integrity.


----------



## db94

Logique said:


> This poster was displayed in Tanya Plibersek's office:
> http://www.news.com.au/national-new...lectorate-office/story-e6frfkvr-1226377446341 _Tanya Plibersek bans satire but refuses to apologise for 'racist, sexist, homophobic' posters._
> 
> A direct slur on Tony Abbott, worse than anything said by a staff member in a QLD retaurant.
> 
> Something she might think about, before she points the moral finger at anyone else. It's called hypocrisy Tanya.
> 
> View attachment 52776




I hope this gets out there and people see this. Each day it gets worse for Labor. Julia will be in hiding

EDIT: noticed how this was from the 1st of June. Why didnt Abbott call out Julia/Labor for this? If it was the Labor party theyd call foul for weeks


----------



## Calliope

Gillard seized on the fake menu as a chance to demonise the man who helped to expose the nasty misogyny of her mate Peter Slipper...but;



> It is understandable that Australia's first female Prime Minister wants to make women's issues a focus of her government, but her words would have greater authority if she had not supported a man for Speaker who had sent text messages describing women in vulgar terms. Or if she hadn't invited a serial sexist FM disc jockey to Kirribilli House or appear on his radio program. Or if she had drawn a line earlier about Labor MP Craig Thomson using a union credit card at brothels, as Fair Work found. Or if she wasn't reducing the income of single mothers by forcing them on to Newstart. Or if she had supported women to replace outgoing Labor MPs Nicola Roxon in Gellibrand and Martin Ferguson in Batman. Or if she was not so dependent on a male coterie of union and faction bosses to support her leadership



. The Australian Editorial


----------



## sptrawler

Panic is obviously really setting in. 

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...-school-campaign/story-fncz7kyc-1226662796496

Obviously ministers can't be too busy, if they can become pamphlet deliverers at schools.
Then again I suppose they can do less damage, if they our out in the electorate, instead of being in parliament.

Are we really paying these people to govern the country?  The goons need counselling.

Then again there is always an upside, they can get work experience as crosswalk attendants, should help them with employment after September.


----------



## sails

db94 said:


> I hope this gets out there and people see this. Each day it gets worse for Labor. Julia will be in hiding
> 
> EDIT: noticed how this was from the 1st of June. Why didnt Abbott call out Julia/Labor for this? If it was the Labor party theyd call foul for weeks





It seems Gillard and co are clearly not up to the job of running the country, controlling our borders and managing taxpayer's finances, so all they seem to have left is innuendo, smear on something else they've cooked up and now the blue tie issue. Surely this only underscores her unsuitability to be in the top job?


----------



## MrBurns

The irony of Gillard is that she attacks men , Tony Abbott in particular in a manic way, when all along the problem for her is ......................she isn't one and hates it.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> The irony of Gillard is that she attacks men , Tony Abbott in particular in a manic way, when all along the problem for her is ......................she isn't one and hates it.




Yes, unlike Penny Wong, who makes a practice of looking, acting and talking like a bloke.


----------



## Julia

Wayne Swan has even this morning directly said he does not believe the restaurant owner and that it defies credibility that the menu was not passed around to all the guests.


----------



## Calliope

I don't know what Swan's problem  is. He enjoys crude jokes as long as they are about Abbott's Chief of Staff, Peta Credlin.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Julia said:


> Wayne Swan has even this morning directly said he does not believe the restaurant owner and that it defies credibility that the menu was not passed around to all the guests.




So, the vile Swan hath become a mere slanderer too, eh? Orf with 'em both, I say! :swear::angry:


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> The irony of Gillard is that she attacks men , Tony Abbott in particular in a manic way, when all along the problem for her is ......................she isn't one and hates it.




I offered the following comment to The Age newspaper yesterday but it got rejected.


----------



## Calliope

Gillard and Swan are still baying for Brough's dis-endorsement. Well they would, wouldn't they? After all he is opposed by their own pet misogynist, Peter Slipper.

It is to Mal Brough's credit that he, being part aboriginal, has never accused his enemies of being racist. He has a decency that Gillard and Swan lack.


----------



## MrBurns

Bintang said:


> I offered the following comment to The Age newspaper yesterday but it got rejected.




Put comments on the Drum, very gratifying when you get through the ABC censorship of anything non pro Labor.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/


----------



## bellenuit

This was posted on a website on 10th January 2012, over 17 months ago.....

http://collectionofawesome.com/2012/01/10/julia-gillard-kfc-meal-deal/

Obviously the menu item was a joke going round a long time ago.


----------



## Miss Hale

Swan is making an idiot if himself over this menu business (well, more of an idiot of himself than usual).  He says it's inconceivable that the menu wasn't presented at the dinner and yet if it was surely news of it would have surfaced long before now.


----------



## MrBurns

Miss Hale said:


> Swan is making an idiot if himself over this menu business (well, more of an idiot of himself than usual).  He says it's inconceivable that the menu wasn't presented at the dinner and yet if it was surely news of it would have surfaced long before now.




What a crock, just ask the people at the dinner you goose, fiddling while the country burns...............


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> What a crock, just ask the people at the dinner you goose, fiddling while the country burns...............




I thought Rudd was the goose. Maybe Swan is the turkey.


----------



## Calliope

bellenuit said:


> This was posted on a website on 10th January 2012, over 17 months ago.....
> 
> http://collectionofawesome.com/2012/01/10/julia-gillard-kfc-meal-deal/
> 
> Obviously the menu item was a joke going round a long time ago.




Now Julia, Wayne and Tanya are calling for Colonel Sanders to be dis-enfranchised.


----------



## noco

I think we are now getting closer to the truth with the revelation of big wig Labor connections to the restraurant owner.
I wonder whether these big wigs and the exemployee are Gillard supporters. Bill Ludwig and Con Sciaccas names were mentioned. 

Maybe Gillard should be saying Luwig has many question to answer instead of Brough. 

Note: Ludwig made no comment.

I also note that the tainted menu in question was bandied around by someone as a  KFC menu in 2012. Never heard a word about it then and why didn't Gillard sue KFC in 2012.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rd-menu-gate-row/story-fnihsrk2-1226663209949


----------



## Logique

noco said:


> I think we are now getting closer to the truth with the revelation of big wig Labor connections to the restraurant owner.
> I wonder whether these big wigs and the exemployee are Gillard supporters. Bill Ludwig and Con Sciaccas names were mentioned.
> Maybe Gillard should be saying Luwig has many question to answer instead of Brough.
> Note: Ludwig made no comment.
> I also note that the tainted menu in question was bandied around by someone as a  KFC menu in 2012. Never heard a word about it then and why didn't Gillard sue KFC in 2012.
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rd-menu-gate-row/story-fnihsrk2-1226663209949



Another stitch-up, Australia Day style. Of course the 24 hour news cycle has moved on, which is what they count on, and their mates in the media.


----------



## noco

noco said:


> I think we are now getting closer to the truth with the revelation of big wig Labor connections to the restraurant owner.
> I wonder whether these big wigs and the exemployee are Gillard supporters. Bill Ludwig and Con Sciaccas names were mentioned.
> 
> Maybe Gillard should be saying Luwig has many question to answer instead of Brough.
> 
> Note: Ludwig made no comment.
> 
> I also note that the tainted menu in question was bandied around by someone as a  KFC menu in 2012. Never heard a word about it then and why didn't Gillard sue KFC in 2012.
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rd-menu-gate-row/story-fnihsrk2-1226663209949




There is now no doubt in my mind that this exemployee of the retaurant,David Carter, is a Labor Party supporter after listeniing to his interview on Sky News and what you will read on the link below.

It was a Labor Party plot to discredit Mal Brough and the Liberal Party and it has back fired on them (the Labor Party) well and truely. 


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-labor-ministers/story-fn59niix-1226662973104


----------



## Calliope

noco said:


> It was a Labor Party plot to discredit Mal Brough and the Liberal Party and it has back fired on them (the Labor Party) well and truely.




Yes, everything they touch they stuff up. Now they can't even get their bastardry, which they used to be so good at, working properly.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Calliope said:


> Now Julia, Wayne and Tanya are calling for Colonel Sanders to be dis-enfranchised.
> 
> Originally Posted by bellenuit
> This was posted on a website on 10th January 2012, over 17 months ago.....
> 
> http://collectionofawesome.com/2012/...kfc-meal-deal/
> 
> Obviously the menu item was a joke going round a long time ago.




Why isn't the mass media all over this? This KFC joke posted in Jan 2012 is clearly where the restaurant owner got his menu idea from. What a pathetic bunch of tossers the media are. Gutless.

BTW, I just had a crazy thought. Isn't the PM of Australia supposed to be serving all constituents - not just the 51% who are female? If she is slandering the other 49% with misandric glee, surely the GG should sack her?


----------



## Bushman

Calliope said:


> I don't know what Swan's problem  is. He enjoys crude jokes as long as they are about Abbott's Chief of Staff, Peta Credlin.




Exactly! But apparently Liberal women are fair game. 

The main difference here is that, well, the crude jokes about Peta were actually made. Swan was there that night. So has he asked from himself to be disendorsed by the ALP? 

My favourite bit in all this is that Gillard backed Thomson who has an alleged fondness for prostitutes as long as it is paid for by union members. You know, that industry that is at the forefront of empowering women.


----------



## qldfrog

Macquack said:


> The "red head's" name is Julia Gillard and happens to be the Prime Minister (at the moment), so show some f***king respect.



I have none personnaly for that person, I do not recognise any PM who has not been elected and whose seat is only maintained and accessed via bribing some MPs: it has a name, corruption in my vocabulary
This is what she is to me: a shame for democracy, Australia and the worse setback for women we could imagine
so no f...ing respect for piece of crap like that unless you have respect for Kadhafi and Sadam or other puppets handling a power title


----------



## Bintang

Aussiejeff said:


> BTW, I just had a crazy thought. Isn't the PM of Australia supposed to be serving all constituents - not just the 51% who are female? If she is slandering the other 49% with misandric glee, surely the GG should sack her?




Its worse than that. A fair chunk of the 51% don't think they are being well served either.
And for all of this she has just  got a pay rise and will now earn over $500k - for what I ask?


----------



## Ves

qldfrog said:


> I do not recognise any PM who has not been elected



Can you explain this statement and it's relevance?  I'm a bit bemused. That's at least two people touting this line on here now.


----------



## noco

Gillard knew about that tainted mneu months ago. It was sent to her by David Carter back in March.

What a low life she is.

The GG won't sack Gillard unless her son-in-law asks her to do it.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...ards-latest-blue/story-fni0ffxg-1226662729427


----------



## bigdog

Pickering reports that:
It appears Julia Gillard will not be Prime Minister in two weeks’ time according to more than one Labor backbencher and Kevin Rudd is desperately positioning himself to be one of the contenders to replace her.

http://pickeringpost.com/article/shorten-counting-numbers/1502
*SHORTEN COUNTING NUMBERS*

read full article


----------



## dutchie

qldfrog said:


> I have none personnaly for that person, I do not recognise any PM who has not been elected and whose seat is only maintained and accessed via bribing some MPs: it has a name, corruption in my vocabulary
> This is what she is to me: a shame for democracy, Australia and the worse setback for women we could imagine
> so no f...ing respect for piece of crap like that unless you have respect for Kadhafi and Sadam or other puppets handling a power title




I have no respect for this politician either.

She is a liar, a cheat (and possibly a criminal - jury is still out), a hypocrite of the highest order, a misandrist, a b.s.a., an adultress, an inept and unprofessional person earning $500,000 from the Australian taxpayer under false pretenses and lacks any class at all.


----------



## IFocus

Lets recount

A shadow treasurer that "cannot recall"

The main man in the fund raiser didn't see

And a host that makes up a menu and hasn't shown anyone

I think Tony Abbott is a really good guy and is being totally honest.


----------



## IFocus

qldfrog said:


> I have none personnaly for that person, I do not recognise any PM who has not been elected and whose seat is only maintained and accessed via bribing some MPs: it has a name, corruption in my vocabulary
> This is what she is to me: a shame for democracy, Australia and the worse setback for women we could imagine
> so no f...ing respect for piece of crap like that unless you have respect for Kadhafi and Sadam or other puppets handling a power title




So you don't understand the Westminster system of government or the Australian constitution then?


----------



## noco

IFocus said:


> Lets recount
> 
> A shadow treasurer that "cannot recall"
> 
> The main man in the fund raiser didn't see
> 
> And a host that makes up a menu and hasn't shown anyone
> 
> I think Tony Abbott is a really good guy and is being totally honest.





Good old Ifocus to the rescue.

They say there is a clown in every circus.


----------



## Miss Hale

IFocus said:


> So you don't understand the Westminster system of government or the Australian constitution then?




Gillard and the Labor party may have _formed_ government (with the help of the independents and the Greens) but they were not elected.


----------



## IFocus

Miss Hale said:


> Gillard and the Labor party may have _formed_ government (with the help of the independents and the Greens) but they were not elected.





Hmmmmmm so you don't understand the Westminster system of government or the Australian constitution then?


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> So you don't understand the Westminster system of government or the Australian constitution then?




the spirit <> the letter


----------



## qldfrog

Ves said:


> Can you explain this statement and it's relevance?  I'm a bit bemused. That's at least two people touting this line on here now.



Hi Ves
her position is maintained by : 
-a crook who should be in jail (not even discussing her own judicial position)
-"independants" who were all elected in rural constituancy which given the option to speak would be voting national most probably and definitively not labour
- a voted coalition member bought with cash (who should probably be in jail too)-> clear case of corruption IMHO: buying a vote against goods

remove the above or even part of the above and she is out!
so no, Australia never voted this person in place.
And she is the very same who did reverse a voted government: putch in most other democracy by  union forces against an elected left government..incredible, only in Australia..
so no I do not recognise her as elected.
the shame of a nation.
I was not pro howard but he was elected and as such I recognised him as my PM even if i did not vote for him or had my preferences for him.
This is not the case here


----------



## qldfrog

IFocus said:


> So you don't understand the Westminster system of government or the Australian constitution then?




answer above, people voting for our "cabcharge grand master" voted coalition if I am not wrong and ended suporting our joke of PM


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> Lets recount
> 
> A shadow treasurer that "cannot recall"
> 
> The main man in the fund raiser didn't see
> 
> And a host that makes up a menu and hasn't shown anyone
> 
> I think Tony Abbott is a really good guy and is being totally honest.



And no proof otherwise.

Kangaroo court Labor style.


----------



## qldfrog

qldfrog said:


> answer above, people voting for our "cabcharge grand master" voted coalition if I am not wrong and ended suporting our joke of PM



Anyway, not usually invoved in these type of chat where people (from both sides) are ready to deny the obvious
but when I hear anyone talking about "the office of PM" and "respect to the position", my blood boils and I consider this an insult to the Australian voters...
Have all a good night,


----------



## Miss Hale

IFocus said:


> Hmmmmmm so you don't understand the Westminster system of government or the Australian constitution then?




I do. It appears you don't.


----------



## sptrawler

IFocus said:


> Lets recount
> 
> A shadow treasurer that "cannot recall"




Couldn't that be levelled at Gillard, Lawrence, Burke, Parker, Obeid, Macdonald, Thomson. etc 

I think that Labor have a history on that answer.

But I don't think it related to a menu, in the Labor examples.


----------



## drsmith

I thought Peter Slipper was Labor's menu man, at least with the seafood.


----------



## Ves

qldfrog said:


> Anyway, not usually invoved in these type of chat where people (from both sides) are ready to deny the obvious



Thank you for answering my question by the way.


----------



## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> I do. It appears you don't.




Don't be hard on poor old Focus. It goes against every grain of his rusted on Leftist instincts to make a statement like;



> I think Tony Abbott is a really good guy and is being totally honest.




Perhaps he is seeking absolution.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> I thought Peter Slipper was Labor's menu man, at least with the seafood.




LOL, obviously Ifocus, can't recall.


----------



## drsmith

The Sky News interviewer didn't have to push too hard with the questions to the chef.

This was a self crucifiction on national television. The interviewer seem surprised with the ease in which the self incriminating answers came. Chef David Carter has clearly had no media training.

http://video.news.com.au/2391076335/Chef-felt-obligated-to-release-menu

I note that Kevin Rudd has been very quiet today.


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> Don't be hard on poor old Focus. It goes against every grain of his rusted on Leftist instincts to make a statement like;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Tony Abbott is a really good guy and is being totally honest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps he is seeking absolution.
Click to expand...


I'll leave it to IFocus to clarify, but I read that as very, very much tongue in cheek, sarcastic if you like.


----------



## bellenuit

If the Twitter reports are to be believed, Howard Sattler has been suspended from 6PR by Fairfax Media for his questions to the PM today on whether Tim was gay. Sattler was completely offline in his interview and has probably added some sympathy votes to Gillard that she wouldn't otherwise have after this week's fiascos. It also adds credence to Gillard's line that misogyny/sexism is rife in conservative (aka Liberal) politics, as Sattler is an outspoken Liberal advocate.


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> If the Twitter reports are to be believed, Howard Sattler has been suspended from 6PR by Fairfax Media for his questions to the PM today on whether Tim was gay. Sattler was completely offline in his interview and has probably added some sympathy votes to Gillard that she wouldn't otherwise have after this week's fiascos. It also adds credence to Gillard's line that misogyny/sexism is rife in conservative (aka Liberal) politics, as Sattler is an outspoken Liberal advocate.



I haven't heard the interview, but reading the transcript from the ABC link below, I wonder whether it was tongue in cheek.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=778267

It couldn't have been a serious line of questioning, surely.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> The Sky News interviewer didn't have to push too hard with the questions to the chef.
> 
> This was a self crucifiction on national television. The interviewer seem surprised with the ease in which the self incriminating answers came. Chef David Carter has clearly had no media training.
> 
> http://video.news.com.au/2391076335/Chef-felt-obligated-to-release-menu
> 
> I note that Kevin Rudd has been very quiet today.




Jeez, that's something. So Gillard, Swan and Wong are hanging their credibility on that guys word.

Just reinforces the perception of the goon show.OMG


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> I haven't heard the interview, but reading the transcript from the ABC link below, I wonder whether it was tongue in cheek.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=778267
> 
> It couldn't have been a serious line of questioning, surely.




The interview;

Sattler: Rumours, snide jokes, innuendoes... You've been the butt of them many times.
Gillard: Well, I think that's probably right; we've certainly seen a few this week.
S: Can I test a few out?
G: In what way?
S: ‘Tim's gay’.
G: Well...
S: I'm saying... That's a myth.
G: That's absurd.
S: You hear it! 'He must be gay; he's a hairdresser.' ...but you've heard it! It's not me saying it, it's what people say!
G: Well, I mean, Howard - I don't know whether every silly thing that gets said is going to be repeated to me now--
S: No no no--
G: You know, to all the hairdressers out there, including to all the men who are listening: I don't think, in life, one can actually look at a whole profession full of different human beings and say, 'Gee, we know something about every one of those human beings.’ I mean, it's absurd, isn't it?
S: You can confirm that he's not?
G: Howard, don't be ridiculous. Of course not.
S: No, but, are you in a heterosexual relationship - that's all I'm asking!
G: Look, Howard, you and I have just talked about that. So now, that is bordering--
S: No, no, I want to get rid of it--
G: Let me just - let me just bring you back to earth.
S: I'm not saying it!
G: Right, well, let me just bring you back to earth. You and I have just talked about me and Tim living at the Lodge. We live there together as a couple. You know that. Yes, on the internet, you know, there are lots of, you know - what I've referred to in the past as nutjobs, and I'm happy to use the expression again; people who peddle and circulate vile and offensive things.
S: Awful things.
G: Yes, absolutely.
S: Okay, we've put paid to all that now, let's get back to the election coming up.


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> The interview;
> 
> Sattler: Rumours, snide jokes, innuendoes... You've been the butt of them many times.
> Gillard: Well, I think that's probably right; we've certainly seen a few this week.
> S: Can I test a few out?
> G: In what way?
> S: ‘Tim's gay’.
> G: Well...
> S: I'm saying... That's a myth.
> G: That's absurd.
> S: You hear it! 'He must be gay; he's a hairdresser.' ...but you've heard it! It's not me saying it, it's what people say!
> G: Well, I mean, Howard - I don't know whether every silly thing that gets said is going to be repeated to me now--
> S: No no no--
> G: You know, to all the hairdressers out there, including to all the men who are listening: I don't think, in life, one can actually look at a whole profession full of different human beings and say, 'Gee, we know something about every one of those human beings.’ I mean, it's absurd, isn't it?
> S: You can confirm that he's not?
> G: Howard, don't be ridiculous. Of course not.
> S: No, but, are you in a heterosexual relationship - that's all I'm asking!
> G: Look, Howard, you and I have just talked about that. So now, that is bordering--
> S: No, no, I want to get rid of it--
> G: Let me just - let me just bring you back to earth.
> S: I'm not saying it!
> G: Right, well, let me just bring you back to earth. You and I have just talked about me and Tim living at the Lodge. We live there together as a couple. You know that. Yes, on the internet, you know, there are lots of, you know - what I've referred to in the past as nutjobs, and I'm happy to use the expression again; people who peddle and circulate vile and offensive things.
> S: Awful things.
> G: Yes, absolutely.
> S: Okay, we've put paid to all that now, let's get back to the election coming up.




Yes, it sounded to me that the lawyer, blew away the burnt out shock jock, clap,clap ,clap


----------



## banco

drsmith said:


> I haven't heard the interview, but reading the transcript from the ABC link below, I wonder whether it was tongue in cheek.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=778267
> 
> It couldn't have been a serious line of questioning, surely.




Does it matter whether it was tongue in cheek?  Either way he's a moron.  Can you imagine the American press pursuing a similar line of questioning with Obama about his wife?


----------



## sptrawler

banco said:


> Does it matter whether it was tongue in cheek?  Either way he's a moron.  Can you imagine the American press pursuing a similar line of questioning with Obama about his wife?




Obviously the lawyer, is going to line up the pro coalition reporters and take them on. Great play, but won't make any difference to the result.IMO
It is a shame all this creative thinking that has come to the fore, didn't manifest itself earlier in process.
Maybe then they would be seen as the saviours, rather than the scourge.


----------



## Tink

Agree with above posts.

I have noticed alot more people are becoming very frustrated and verbal against our PM and the Labor party, all saying we shouldnt have to wait until September, we have had enough.
She does not represent us women and is an embarressment.
The more they play the gender card, the bigger the hole they dig.
Agree with comments, she has taken the cause backwards.

They are in for a wipe out, well and truly.


----------



## Aussiejeff

drsmith said:


> I thought Peter Slipper was Labor's menu man, at least with the seafood.




Perhaps IFocus cannot recall that far back....


----------



## Calliope

Julia is is being deliberately duplicitous in pretending that the Thighgate menu was designed as a put-down of her.



> It was not Julia Gillard, but then American first lady Hillary Clinton who was the subject of the gibe, which first emerged in the 1990s.
> 
> It has been served up in various ways since then, but the ingredients have rarely changed: a reference to the target's breast, thighs and pubic area usually feature.
> 
> The joke that was posted in 1993, when the internet was in its infancy, was about a "special" meal being offered by Kentucky Fried Chicken, according to the urban legend-busting website Snopes.com. It eventually evolved into an edited photo of a KFC restaurant that purported to advertise such a "special" on a sign.



.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-for-two-decades/story-fn59niix-1226663468602


----------



## bigdog

Juliar can certainly hand out the abuse, but is always very critical of those when on the receiving end!!


----------



## Logique

I think Sattler went too far, and got his just deserts, being suspended by the station.  

You don't treat any PM like that.


----------



## MrBurns

The next News poll should be a doozy ...........I'm sick of this man hater and I think everyone else is too.
Every day in the news it's another Gillard drama


----------



## MrBurns

Logique said:


> I think Sattler went too far, and got his just deserts, being suspended by the station.
> 
> You don't treat any PM like that.




He did go too far, his attitude was it was light a hearted segment but when he persisted it went too far but the annoying part is we will have to hear about this for a week or until the next episode of "Julia is offended by men" hits the news waves.


----------



## Calliope

I think Julia needs new glasses.





She misses the target AGAIN!


----------



## Aussiejeff

MrBurns said:


> He did go too far, his attitude was it was light a hearted segment but when he persisted it went too far but the annoying part is we will have to hear about this for a week *or until the next episode of "Julia is offended by men" hits the news waves*.




If the past week is anything to go by, we won't have long to wait...


----------



## Aussiejeff

From the Bolt Blog....*sigh* 



> The Age editor says sexist and rude menus mocking Julia Gillard are vile:
> 
> The Age has long campaigned against sexism and does not regard it as a trivial issue. The emergence, coincidental or not, of a vile example in the form of a menu for a Liberal National Party fund-raiser - supposedly a joke that never made it to the table - is evidence of a culture of sexism in some quarters.
> 
> In fact, the menu was not produced for the LNP fundraiser at all, as the editor should know.
> 
> It was a private “joke” between the restaurant owner and his son, unlike the *sexist and rude menu mocking Tony Abbott which the Age editor distributed to every Age reader this morning in retaliation for something of which Abbott is entirely innocent:
> *
> If there was no excuse for the menu drawn up by a restaurant owner as a joke with his son, there is no excuse for this menu drawn up by Age cartoonist Michael Leunig for a collective s****** with more than 200,000 readers. What’s more, _the cartoon is based on a lie - that Abbott was somehow implicit in the Gillard menu and needs this payback_.
> 
> The Age has done to Abbott precisely what it damns when done to Gillard - but done it worse. Here is the typical sanctimony and hypocrisy of the Left, for which there are not principles, just sides.
> 
> Vile.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ifies_abbott_in_a_sexist_menu_based_on_a_lie/


----------



## Knobby22

Yes, we all should just let it ride. It's great for democracy that we can insinuate that the Prime Minister's partner is gay and is not attracted to her, which is fair enough as she has big thighs and lousy t1ts.

Great defence guys, I felt slightly ashamed of our media then but you people know how to make me feel better.
My respect for you couldn't be higher.

Can't wait for the next attack. The nastier the better. Almost can picture Pickering's next cartoon.


----------



## noco

Aussiejeff said:


> If the past week is anything to go by, we won't have long to wait...




I think we are all starting read this Prime Minister like a book. Her modus operandi is becoming too consistant and almost on a daily basis not weekly.

She is looking for the sympathy vote from well orchestrated smears created by her good self and in conjuction with Labor backers.

Howard Saddler will be back on air in no time following his "SUSPENSION".


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> Can't wait for the next attack. The nastier the better.




Don't worry, I'm sure she has a lot more up her sleeve.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Don't worry, I'm sure she has a lot more up her sleeve.




Well at least I believe we have heard the last of the menu saga. 

Gillard has egg on her face and I am not sure if eggs were on the menu.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e-mark-yet-again/story-fnfenwor-1226663466908


----------



## Calliope

She was just trying to steal the limelight from from Hillary Clinton.


----------



## Calliope

Julia will on doubt be full of praise for The Age's smartarse cartoonist Michael Leunig.:bad:


----------



## drsmith

banco said:


> Does it matter whether it was tongue in cheek?  Either way he's a moron.  Can you imagine the American press pursuing a similar line of questioning with Obama about his wife?



The ABC replayed the interview this morning and I would have to say after listening to it that poor old Howard Sattler lost the plot.

He was good at winding people up in interviews in the 90's and was popular amongst his demographic at that time. I've only listened to him a couple of times in more recent years and the impression that I've had is that he had well and truly lost his zing and targeted a rather narrow audience base.

He was perhaps a radio show host for one day too long.


----------



## Julia

banco said:


> Does it matter whether it was tongue in cheek?  Either way he's a moron.  Can you imagine the American press pursuing a similar line of questioning with Obama about his wife?



Or John Howard about Janette being a lesbian, for that matter.



Logique said:


> I think Sattler went too far, and got his just deserts, being suspended by the station.
> 
> You don't treat any PM like that.



Agree.



Calliope said:


> Julia will on doubt be full of praise for The Age's smartarse cartoonist Michael Leunig.:bad:
> 
> View attachment 52798



That's disgusting.  I'd have thought better of Michael Leunig and The Age should be ashamed.

What on earth has happened to our media ?   Has the cynicism  and loathing of Julia Gillard ignited such a level of disrespect that the nation is being subjected to this childish and ugly free-for-all with apparent impunity?
I cannot believe such a hideous level of personal abuse.


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> Has the cynicism and loathing of Julia Gillard ignited such a level of disrespect that the nation is being subjected to this childish and ugly free-for-all with apparent impunity?
> I cannot believe such a hideous level of personal abuse.




Me too, Julia. The last week has been a disgrace all around. The PM's speech about abortion, the menu incident and now what happened yesterday on 6PR. It really is a new low. Then again, we apparently now think it's good form to throw sandwiches at the Prime Minister of this country, so who knows how low we can go.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Julia will on doubt be full of praise for The Age's smartarse cartoonist Michael Leunig.:bad:
> 
> View attachment 52798



Is that recent (this week) ?

If so, it will be interesting to see if it gets a run on the ABC Insiders talking pictures segment.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> so who knows how low we can go.




I think the answer to that will unfold between now and September then things will get back to normal....I would think. 
This all revolves around Gillard who stokes the fires and has no respect for anyone and receives non in return.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> This all revolves around Gillard who stokes the fires and has no respect for anyone and receives non in return.



The nature of the discussion this week from the PM and her political strategists has been one of distraction.

Distraction from the real issues facing her government and even more so, the re-emergence of Kevin Rudd into the broader public political arena. Behind the scenes, she'll be quiet happy Howard Sattler unexpectedly iced the cake.

The cake though is poison and won't save her government. The immediate priority however is to save her leadership from the Rudddozer and as has been consistent under Julia Gillard's leadership, worry about the longer term consequences for the party and the nation as a whole later.

---------------------------

As for Julia Gilllard's leadership, the chatter just won't go away.

The AFR's Laura Tingle,



> Even the Prime Minister’s closest allies privately concede her leadership is finished but self-righteously insist they will not get their hands dirty by pushing her out.
> 
> Cabinet ministers look hopefully to Bill Shorten to “do something”. At a particularly pathetic moment this week, they argued Bob Hawke should tap Julia Gillard on the shoulder! What courage.




http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/what_happens_to_education_if_gillard_amBC9Hyck1oNHdbVuTlZEK


----------



## Bushman

Julia said:


> What on earth has happened to our media ?   Has the cynicism  and loathing of Julia Gillard ignited such a level of disrespect that the nation is being subjected to this childish and ugly free-for-all with apparent impunity?
> I cannot believe such a hideous level of personal abuse.




Hi Julia, it is the clash of politics with celebrity culture. The boundaries are being blurred and this is resulting in a loss of respect for positions of authority. 

One thing that bothers me is why is Julia Gillard talking to 'shock jocks' in the first place, i.e. she is pandering to the above. But, nonetheless, questioning the sexual preference of our PMs partner is very grubby.  

Re Leunig, I would say that he was trying to highlight the 'sexualisation' that occurs when society comments on female figures in the public domain.  

By the way, the ALP is yet to address the double standard that 'blue collar' sexism is ok but 'blue ties' sexism is not.


----------



## Calliope

Bushman said:


> Re Leunig, I would say that he was trying to highlight the 'sexualisation' that occurs when society comments on female figures in the public domain.




Maybe. :dunno: Not long ago some of the comments made by the left on Gina Rinehart's body and looks were nasty. Many were on ASF. Clive Palmer seems to have escaped that.


----------



## Julia

Bushman said:


> Re Leunig, I would say that he was trying to highlight the 'sexualisation' that occurs when society comments on female figures in the public domain.



That's a generous interpretation, Bushman.  Alternatively, I'd suggest he has further diminished himself and The Age by stooping to such muck.

I hope no one in the Coalition dignifies Leunig's cartoon with any comment.

Anne Summers was on "The World Today" lamenting the  hideous level of misogyny and sexism Ms Gillard has experienced.  She suggested it is indicative of misogyny across the broader society.
Well, Anne, I don't know about that:  I've never heard misogynistic comments directed toward Gail Kelly, Heather Ridout, Jennifer Westacott, Jillian Broadbent, Catherine Tanna and others.  These women are leaders in business and seem to just get on with their jobs.


----------



## Bushman

Calliope said:


> Maybe. :dunno: Not long ago some of the comments made by the left on Gina Rinehart's body and looks were nasty. Many were on ASF. Clive Palmer seems to have escaped that.




Clive Palmer has a shocking hairdo. He should really call on the 'First Bloke' to fix that for him  

As I said before, it seems women of the Liberal Party, and I include Gina in this category, are fair 'game' (pardon the quail pun).


----------



## MrBurns

Lets face it Gillard gets insults because .....she's a bitch, plain and simple a smart mouth, lying backstabbing arrogant user.

Nothing to do with her sex in fact she is a disgrace to women in general.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> Lets face it Gillard gets insults because .....*she's a bitch*, plain and simple a *smart mouth*, *lying backstabbing arrogant user*.
> 
> Nothing to do with her sex in fact she is a *disgrace women *in general.




Get off your soap box Burns. 

We have all heard *your opinion on Gillard about a billion times*.

Give it a rest.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Get off your soap box Burns.
> 
> We have all heard *your opinion on Gillard about a billion times*.
> 
> Give it a rest.




There's always room for one more for you Macquack


----------



## drsmith

Bushman said:


> One thing that bothers me is why is Julia Gillard talking to 'shock jocks' in the first place, i.e. she is pandering to the above. But, nonetheless, questioning the sexual preference of our PMs partner is very grubby.




I note Howard Sattler started with a feeler question,



> S: Can I test a few out?




Julia Gillard at that point could have turned the discussion to policy if she wanted to, but didn't. That doesn't justify where Howard Sattler subsequently went, but it does illustrate where Julia Gillard was happy for the public discussion to stay.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> Get off your soap box Burns.
> We have all heard *your opinion on Gillard about a billion times*.
> Give it a rest.




Why don't you go round telling everyone off on here who doesn't like Gillard, not just me. ? 

You'll be very busy.


----------



## Macquack

MrBurns said:


> Why don't you go round telling everyone off on here who doesn't like Gillard, not just me. ?
> 
> You'll be very busy.




You are a serial offender.


----------



## MrBurns

Macquack said:


> You are a serial offender.




Ummm you may not have noticed but so is everyone else in here is


----------



## dutchie

MrBurns said:


> Ummm you may not have noticed but so is everyone else in here is




I'll drink to that.

(there is an ignore facility)


----------



## drsmith

Niki Savva offers some insights on when Barrie Cassidy got his tips,



> In the middle of the stampede Barrie Cassidy triggered on Sunday by declaring Gillard's leadership over, after he had received two phone calls a half hour before ABC1's Insiders went to air, another of the Prime Minister's staunchest defenders was adamant she wouldn't be going anywhere, so Shorten -- or whoever -- could expect a hammering if he had the ticker to front her and tell her to quit. "She would knee him in the balls, kick him in the head and throw him out the door," he said. Right. Now that was unequivocal and ferocious.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...n-bill-as-brutus/story-fnahw9xv-1226662758915


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Niki Savva offers some insights on when Barrie Cassidy got his tips,
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...n-bill-as-brutus/story-fnahw9xv-1226662758915




That's exactly how I see it now, she's furious with men because she isn't one so tries to butch it up as much as possible I could see her knee sinking into Shortens crotch and her giving wimpy Kev an uppercut all in the one move.


----------



## MrBurns

dutchie said:


> (there is an ignore facility)




And deny me the pleasure of watching a Gillard tragic go down with the ship ?..................never


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> I note Howard Sattler started with a feeler question,
> 
> 
> 
> Julia Gillard at that point could have turned the discussion to policy if she wanted to, but didn't. That doesn't justify where Howard Sattler subsequently went, but it does illustrate where Julia Gillard was happy for the public discussion to stay.





As I said in the other thread, I wonder if this interview wasn't yet another McTernan styled set-up to distract from the real political issues that so desperately need answers...sigh. I read somewhere that Sattler had cleared his questions with the PMO - can't find that now so can't vouch for the accuracy.


----------



## drsmith

More likely to me, Howard Sattler was just trying to do something to improve his flagging ratings and Julia Gillard went with the flow.

I doubt this was a set-up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With regard to Chef David Carter and that menu, I wonder if the tweets are becoming too much for him,



> @chef09876's tweets are protected.
> Only confirmed followers have access to @chef09876's Tweets and complete profile. Click the "Follow" button to send a follow request.




https://twitter.com/chef09876


----------



## sails

sails said:


> As I said in the other thread, I wonder if this interview wasn't yet another McTernan styled set-up to distract from the real political issues that so desperately need answers...sigh. I read somewhere that Sattler had cleared his questions with the PMO - can't find that now so can't vouch for the accuracy.





This from Sattler:



> He said he asked Ms Gillard those questions because her office had agreed to a "candid" interview.





http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/17596593/sattler-suspended-over-pm-gay-interview/


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> More likely to me, Howard Sattler was just trying to do something to improve his flagging ratings and Julia Gillard went with the flow.
> 
> I doubt this was a set-up....




Trouble is, what isn't smoke and mirrors with this government?  It seems any distraction to keep people from talking about the real issues of debt, unsecured borders and  leadership woes which she wouldn't want to discuss, etc, etc.


----------



## noco

sails said:


> Trouble is, what isn't smoke and mirrors with this government?  It seems any distraction to keep people from talking about the real issues of debt, unsecured borders and  leadership woes which she wouldn't want to discuss, etc, etc.




+1. It is all show staged even the interview with Sattler. Gillard was the one to set it up.


----------



## bellenuit

I think Kennett is spot on......

http://media.theage.com.au/news/national-news/kennett-labels-gillard-an-embarrassment-4486518.html


----------



## Calliope

Macquack said:


> Get off your soap box Burns.
> 
> We have all heard *your opinion on Gillard about a billion times*.
> 
> Give it a rest.




I agree with you Macquack. Too many of us have gone overboard in our criticism of Ms Gillard. It is in the interests of all of us, including you, that we go to the polls on 14 September with Julia as PM. Her presence could make the difference between a comfortable Coalition victory and the wipeout Labor deserves.


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> More likely to me, Howard Sattler was just trying to do something to improve his flagging ratings and Julia Gillard went with the flow.
> 
> I doubt this was a set-up.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> With regard to Chef David Carter and that menu, I wonder if the tweets are becoming too much for him,
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/chef09876




I agree with you doc, Sattler went over East and flopped, came back to W.A and only has rusted on 80yr olds listening to him.
He made the big play and took the fall. IMO he was paid to do or just too stupid to realise he was out of his depth.
None of us question Julia's brains, just her motivation and morals. On those we have made a decision and carving up burnt out shock jocks just reinforces the belief.


----------



## Macquack

Calliope said:


> Too many of us have gone overboard in our criticism of Ms Gillard.




Can you have a word to that person/thing, Burns.


----------



## sails

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you doc, Sattler went over East and flopped, came back to W.A and only has rusted on 80yr olds listening to him.
> He made the big play and took the fall. IMO he was paid to do or just too stupid to realise he was out of his depth.
> None of us question Julia's brains, just her motivation and morals. On those we have made a decision and carving up burnt out shock jocks just reinforces the belief.




Was Sattler simply expendable?  Was he deliberately set up?

We might never know, but with the antics that have gone on in the past (and as recently as the last couple of days), anything is within the realms of possibility.


----------



## sptrawler

sails said:


> Was Sattler simply expendable?  Was he deliberately set up?
> 
> We might never know, but with the antics that have gone on in the past (and as recently as the last couple of days), anything is within the realms of possibility.




It does all seem very convenient, doesn't it?


----------



## Logique

sails said:


> Was Sattler simply expendable?  Was he deliberately set up?
> 
> We might never know, but with the antics that have gone on in the past (and as recently as the last couple of days), anything is within the realms of possibility.



May well have been Sailsy. 

Labor backbenchers now realize they are considered expendable. If you're on a margin of < 5%, why wouldn't you clean out your office.


----------



## IFocus

Hell we all know how disadvantaged males are in our society when sexist behaviour is visited upon them.


----------



## jank

I for one am looking forward when Julia Gillard will be replaced by Tony Abbot, the politics of the left are not at all what I stand for. However, the past few weeks and months we have seen disgraceful behaviour towards her and the office of the PM in general. It just cements the world view about Australia that it is full of ignorant, sexist, racist juvenile idiots.
Where is the leadership or class? I cannot vote in September as I am not a citizen (yet!) so have no ax to grind with the Liberals or the ALP. Just reporting what I am seeing and what I see almost makes me wish that I will never have a vote here in Australia. Tony Abbot is a bit of a tool as well but hopefully he will get lesson in how to carry to office of PM with a bit of respect and dignity unlike his carry on now.


----------



## sails

jank said:


> I for one am looking forward when Julia Gillard will be replaced by Tony Abbot, the politics of the left are not at all what I stand for. However, the past few weeks and months we have seen disgraceful behaviour towards her and the office of the PM in general. It just cements the world view about Australia that it is full of ignorant, sexist, racist juvenile idiots.
> Where is the leadership or class? I cannot vote in September as I am not a citizen (yet!) so have no ax to grind with the Liberals or the ALP. Just reporting what I am seeing and what I see almost makes me wish that I will never have a vote here in Australia. Tony Abbot is a bit of a tool as well but hopefully he will get lesson in how to carry to office of PM with a bit of respect and dignity unlike his carry on now.




So, you have no problem with the way Gillard carries on screeching "misogyny" at Abbott in Parliament?  How labor created the Australia Day riot to make it look like Abbott had done something wrong?  Then she accuses Abbott of this menu thing - and that's gone on for days.

She is supposed to be governing the country - not playing victim ad nauseum.

As you haven't been in this country long, perhaps you haven't seen the more statesmen like PMs we have had in the past.  They would not have carried on for days playing victim.

I'm sorry, but Gillard has set the tone for debate in this country and has considerably lowered the bar, imo.  When she was voted in, many were willing to give her a fair go.  But she couldn't wait before backflipping on her strong commitment to the people not to introduce a carbon tax. That was just the beginning of the downward spiral.


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> I think Kennett is spot on......
> 
> http://media.theage.com.au/news/national-news/kennett-labels-gillard-an-embarrassment-4486518.html



Agree.  He has summed up the situation very well.


----------



## Tink

Agree Bellenuit +2
just a snippet


> Speaking with Neil Mitchell, Mr Kennett said he admitted he was friendly with Ms Gillard, she herself would be embarrassed after her ferocious and unjustified attack on Mr Abbott.
> "She seized on it without checking and she's attacked Abbott on the basis of something that wasn't correct with ferociousness, an intensity, a hatred that you don't often see," he said.
> "I think she's an embarrassment for the party, and I think when she has time to reflect (on) her performance over the last two days, she will think herself it was embarrassing."
> Our health and safety is potentially on the line, but instead the Prime Minister plays the victim



If this is what we have to put up with for the next 3mths, bring on the election now.


----------



## Calliope

jank said:


> Just reporting what I am seeing and what I see almost makes me wish that I will never have a vote here in Australia.




That's easily fixed. It's a myth that people who don't vote will be prosecuted.


----------



## jank

sails said:


> So, you have no problem with the way Gillard carries on screeching "misogyny" at Abbott in Parliament?  How labor created the Australia Day riot to make it look like Abbott had done something wrong?  Then she accuses Abbott of this menu thing - and that's gone on for days.
> 
> She is supposed to be governing the country - not playing victim ad nauseum.
> 
> As you haven't been in this country long, perhaps you haven't seen the more statesmen like PMs we have had in the past.  They would not have carried on for days playing victim.
> 
> I'm sorry, but Gillard has set the tone for debate in this country and has considerably lowered the bar, imo.  When she was voted in, many were willing to give her a fair go.  But she couldn't wait before backflipping on her strong commitment to the people not to introduce a carbon tax. That was just the beginning of the downward spiral.




As I said I don't care for her at all but she has put up with more than her fair share of sexist none sense from all sides. Look at the hatred directed against thatcher and Hillary clinton!

So what? She is a tool and tony abbot is another tool! Australia is becoming a laughing stock due to the carry on and obsession some people have about Julia. No class, manners or leadership on display by ANYONE.


----------



## banco

sails said:


> Was Sattler simply expendable?  Was he deliberately set up?
> 
> We might never know, but with the antics that have gone on in the past (and as recently as the last couple of days), anything is within the realms of possibility.




There's lots of things we'll never know.  

Is Sails in a romantic relationship with a man?  We might never know but "anything is within the realm of possibility" (a bit tautological perhaps?).


----------



## Calliope

jank said:


> As I said I don't care for her at all but she has put up with more than her fair share of sexist none sense from all sides. Look at the hatred directed against thatcher and Hillary clinton!
> 
> So what? She is a tool and tony abbot is another tool! Australia is becoming a laughing stock due to the carry on and obsession some people have about Julia. No class, manners or leadership on display by ANYONE.




You give every sign of being a tool too!

Tool 


> *A person, typically male, who says or does things that cause you to give them a 'what-are-you-even-doing-here' look.* The 'what-are-you-even-doing-here' look is classified by a glare in the tool's direction and is usually accompanied by muttering of how big of a tool they are. The tool is usually someone who is unwelcome but no one has the balls to tell them to get lost. *The tool is always making comments that are out-of-place, out-of-line or just plain stupid.* The tool is always trying too hard to fit in, and because of this, never will.



Urban Dictionary


----------



## Macquack

Calliope, I think you fancy yourself as the "sharpest tool in the shed".


----------



## Bintang

I think if the jousting in this thread is in any way representative of Australia's voters at large then I understand why we have the politicians we have.  We GET what we DESERVE.


----------



## Calliope

Macquack said:


> Calliope, I think you fancy yourself as the "sharpest tool in the shed".




Not really, but thanks for the compliment Macquack.


----------



## drsmith

The termites in Kevin Rudd's latest leadership campaign have started to breach the surface,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...r-mp-john-murphy/story-e6frg6n6-1226664257675

Julia Gillard is of course still asking everyone not to look.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> The termites in Kevin Rudd's latest leadership campaign have started to breach the surface,
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...r-mp-john-murphy/story-e6frg6n6-1226664257675
> 
> Julia Gillard is of course still asking everyone not to look.




They're running out of time, the next news poll will be a ripper, I hope they don't replace her now, it may not happen they're all weaklings and Rudd is gutless.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> They're running out of time, the next news poll will be a ripper, I hope they don't replace her now, it may not happen they're all weaklings and Rudd is gutless.



I'm not sure what you mean by the next poll being a ripper.

My tip for Newspoll is 2PP of 55% in favour of the Coalition. That would bring it more into line with Essential Media.

There's also this interesting insight today into the next Fairfax/Nielsen poll direct from the horse's mouth,



> Especially when caucus flies back to Canberra on Monday to be greeted by a Fairfax/Nielsen poll that will confirm more than half of them will not be returning to work after September 14.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...you-want-kevin-back-as-pm-20130614-2o9mj.html

I doubt that the nonsense of the past week will have made a lot of difference.


----------



## drsmith

With regard to polling over the next fortnight, Team Gillard might be happy with a blip,



> Shortly before the 2007 election Andrew Robb recalls that he and others were about to approach John Howard to step aside, because of consistently poor polling. But a small improvement right at that time stopped the approach going ahead.
> 
> Gillard hanging on because of a polling blip on the back of voter sympathy would be the worst possible outcome for Labor. It would bind the party to an unpopular leader in an environment where respect for the PM has clearly been lost.




That's what last week was about as a final defence against Kevin Rudd.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...comfort-its-gone/story-fn53lw5p-1226664126204


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by the next poll being a ripper.
> 
> .




I mean good for the Libs, Labor going lower, I'm really interested now to see how low they can poll..........


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I mean good for the Libs, Labor going lower, I'm really interested now to see how low they can poll..........



The commentary in the Fairfax article above is not encouraging for our dear PM.



> A Labor MP tells a story about helping a constituent solve a personal problem. ''I ran into him a month ago and he comes up to me and says I'm really sorry but I can't vote for you because I know that means a vote for that f---ing woman. He used that language and it was a church event. That's the level of feeling out there. People are angry at us that they will have to vote for Tony Abbott.''


----------



## drsmith

It would seem that the Green rats are also on the deck of the sinking Gillard prime-ministership jockeying for space with the increasingly nervous Labor rats poised to jump overboard into a Kevin Rudd lifeboat.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ilne-tells-labor/story-fn59niix-1226664537604

How much longer can Tony Windsor stay in the boiler room with water gushing through the hole in the side ?


----------



## Calliope

It wasn't on the menu, but I think you can blame Abbott for this incident;


----------



## drsmith

That interview by Howard Sattler, Julie Bishop's view.



> JULIE BISHOP: No, I'm just saying that it's unacceptable for that kind of behaviour to go on, and people should take a stand. Now, the Prime Minister was perfectly entitled to refuse to answer the questions that Howard Sattler put to her, for example, and she was perfectly entitled to terminate that interview. And that's what I would have done. So, set high standards and live by them.




On turning back the boats.



> JULIE BISHOP: First, it's false to claim that ours is a tow-back policy and it's false to put those sorts of questions to the Indonesian Vice-President as being representative of Coalition policy. What happened under the Howard Government, and what can happen again, is that Indonesian flag boats with Indonesian crews that have come from Indonesian ports can be turned back. That's what happened in 2002. In fact, Julia Gillard was the shadow immigration minister at the time. And she applauded the Australian Navy for turning boats back, on international waters, back to Indonesia, and they went back - four of them. And Ms Gillard said at the time that turning boats around was a very important plank in dismantling the people-smuggling trade. She supported it in 2007. Kevin Rudd, before the election, said that he would embrace a policy of turning around boats where it was safe to do so in international waters. Now, there is no suggestion that anything that we would do, nor anything the Howard Government did, would violate Indonesian territorial integrity. We've never said that. And it's absolutely false to call it a tow-back policy, and infer in some way-
> 
> HUGH RIMINTON: That wasn't the question that was put to him, actually. It was “turning back” not “towing back”.
> 
> JULIE BISHOP: No. It was -
> 
> HUGH RIMINTON: But “turning back”. So-
> 
> JULIE BISHOP: No. Well, I agree with what the Indonesian Vice-President said, absolutely agree with him. He said that there won't be a violation of Indonesian territorial integrity, and there won't be, and there wasn't under the Howard Government. And what Julia Gillard embraced when she was shadow immigration minister, what Kevin Rudd embraced as leader of the opposition, is in fact Coalition policy. Today we’ve seen another boat arrive. There are now 44,000 people who have come to Australia via the people-smuggling trade. Hundreds and hundreds of deaths at sea, a $10 billion blow-out, and no-one in the Government is taking responsibility for it. The decision that the Australian people have to make in September of this year is whether Labor have the competence, the capacity, and the policies to protect our borders and stop the boats, or whether the Coalition's policies, which have been proven to work, will work again.




http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/06/16/1226664/584104-meet-the-press-transcript.pdf


----------



## sptrawler

Jee wiz doc, that's telling them as it is, shame the reporters only want to pedal Labor crap.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> It wasn't on the menu, but I think you can blame Abbott for this incident;




What a pig I hate that, I bet there will be a few around that will look forward to returning the favour.


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> That interview by Howard Sattler, Julie Bishop's view.



Julie Bishop imo fulfilled her role really well this morning.  Agree with her entirely that Ms Gillard should have set a standard by simply terminating the Sattler interview immediately on that first question.
Instead, she participated in the exchange.

Just one of the real points of difference in behaviour in the two women.


----------



## IFocus

drsmith said:


> That interview by Howard Sattler, Julie Bishop's view.
> 
> 
> 
> On turning back the boats.
> 
> 
> 
> http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/06/16/1226664/584104-meet-the-press-transcript.pdf




The looks the interviewers were exchanging pretty much put the lie to Bishops position. BTW Bishop has never had to answer the questions to her own sex life of which there are plenty of whispers but of course that would be grubby wouldn't it given Bishop is from the pure right side of politics.

No comment on insiders......strange........ more grubby, gutter discussion.


----------



## drsmith

IFocus said:


> The looks the interviewers were exchanging pretty much put the lie to Bishops position.



What lie is that IF ?

Can you clarify from the above quoted remarks.



IFocus said:


> BTW Bishop has never had to answer the questions to her own sex life of which there are plenty of whispers but of course that would be grubby wouldn't it given Bishop is from the pure right side of politics.
> 
> No comment on insiders......strange........ more grubby, gutter discussion.




I have empathy from your point of view and can see how you are keen to discuss matters other than the impact of Labor's passionate fingers on their policy outcomes.

Our PM is the same in that regard.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Julie Bishop imo fulfilled her role really well this morning.  Agree with her entirely that Ms Gillard should have set a standard by simply terminating the Sattler interview immediately on that first question.
> Instead, she participated in the exchange.
> 
> Just one of the real points of difference in behaviour in the two women.




Julia as I said on another thread, Gillard is an expert at deflecting questions she does not want to answer but instead she continued on because she was looking for mileage of sympathy. She was more than happy to stay with the questions because it suited her.


----------



## Julia

You're entitled to that view, noco.  I don't share it.

The latest Fairfax Nielsen poll will have Kevin Rudd cheering and Gillard supporters very anxious indeed.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...gillard-and-labor-plunges-20130217-2ele0.html


----------



## Knobby22

Yes truly disastrous for Labor. I can't see Rudd having much affect though.
They need to take a long hard look at themselves otherwise they may be out of power for 15 years after this. (As long as the coalition performs capably).


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Julie Bishop imo fulfilled her role really well this morning.  Agree with her entirely that Ms Gillard should have set a standard by simply terminating the Sattler interview immediately on that first question.
> Instead, she participated in the exchange.
> 
> Just one of the real points of difference in behaviour in the two women.



I found the video of the Howard Sattler interview interesting in the context of her body language.

 

There was a change in demeanour just after half way through, but even at the end, she didn't look as outraged as she was later.

She also participated in a photo shoot with Howard Sattler after that interview. Clearly not a happy photo, but he looked more worried than she did. Surprising she agreed to it if she was outraged.


----------



## sptrawler

Yes, Sattler is just collateral damage to the Gillard game plan.
She played "rope the dope" and Sattler went along for the ride.IMO I'm sure Julia now says "Howard Sattler, never heard of him".


----------



## drsmith

What impact will this have on the increasingly nervous members of Labor Caucus ?



> POLICE from the Victorian Fraud Squad have seized boxes of legal documents from Julia Gillard's former employer, Slater & Gordon lawyers, as part of an ongoing probe into the AWU slush fund scandal.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ize-files-on-awu/story-fng5kxvh-1226664754177


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> You're entitled to that view, noco.  I don't share it.
> 
> The latest Fairfax Nielsen poll will have Kevin Rudd cheering and Gillard supporters very anxious indeed.
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...gillard-and-labor-plunges-20130217-2ele0.html




Julia, I knew something didn't make sense when reading that link.  It is an article from February 18th.

I hope the correct poll, if there is one just released, shows an equally as bad shift against Gillard.


----------



## wayneL

Out and about yesterday.... noticed all the men's shops are pushing blue ties LMAO.


----------



## dutchie

News flash

A large contingent of Labor supporters (estimated at about 7%) where seen leaving the Gillard camp.

It was observed that all of them were wearing blue ties.


----------



## Tink

So true sptrawler.

We have had Jeff Kennett come forward from Beyond Blue, maybe he is concerned for all the decent men in this country and what this woman keeps pedalling.
Even her party are getting restless..

It disgusts me to see this, as a woman.
The extremes a person will go to...
Men arent allowed to speak anymore in fear they will be branded - what is this world coming to?


----------



## Logique

The brinkmanship will continue.

Just heard on ABC about the latest Nielsen poll.  Labor primary 29%. Lost 7% of men after _BlueTie-gate_.  57% - 43% 2PP.

Meanwhile, Police execute a search warrant on Slater & Gordon offices.


----------



## db94

Logique said:


> The brinkmanship will continue.
> 
> Just heard on ABC about the latest Nielsen poll.  Labor primary 29%. Lost 7% of men after _BlueTie-gate_.  57% - 43% 2PP.
> 
> Meanwhile, Police execute a search warrant on Slater & Gordon offices.




It'll be interesting to see if anyone will step up to take the job by challenging her. I doubt it, the position is ruined and they are doomed regardless of who they have as leader. Could it get any worse for Labor?!


----------



## MrBurns

If she does go a side benefit will be that Garret will go as well, if Rudd takes over that is, I hope she stays there but my tip is Shorten will take the job if he gets the chance  after all the position of PM would be hard to knock back even if its only for a month or 2


----------



## Calliope

dutchie said:


> News flash
> 
> A large contingent of Labor supporters (estimated at about 7%) where seen leaving the Gillard camp.
> 
> It was observed that all of them were wearing blue ties.




I think a lot of men wearing blue overalls are also fleeing from this man hating campaign. A humble apology would now be a good tactic. Perhaps she should leave the school kids alone and seek more photo ops hugging and fondling workers.


----------



## dutchie

Calliope said:


> I think a lot of men wearing blue overalls are also fleeing from this man hating campaign. A humble apology would now be a good tactic. Perhaps she should leave the school kids alone and seek more photo ops hugging and fondling workers.




No chance of getting an apology now but she should at least apologise to all Australian men (especially to Tony Abbott whom she hates with a passion) in her concession speech on September 14th.


----------



## Judd

Tink said:


> ...Men arent allowed to speak anymore in fear they will be branded...




THAT is how I am starting to feel and I resent it.

I don't care about the gender of our Prime Minister, I simply desire leadership and vision.  Some very good policies, albeit underfunded, have been proposed or enacted but I am not seeing leadership or inclusiveness.  Sadly, I still do not see that in Mr Rudd whose vision, from my perspective, is for himself and not the country.

Nevertheless, the vitriol which has been heaped on Ms Gillard by some sections of the media, has been disrespectful, reprehensible and vile to her at a personal level and to the Office of Prime Minister.


----------



## drsmith

As one poster put it on Fairfax's live political blog,



> Great pic at 9.07am. All that's missing is the plank.




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-june-17-2013-20130617-2ocze.html


----------



## Julia

bellenuit said:


> Julia, I knew something didn't make sense when reading that link.  It is an article from February 18th.



Thanks for that correction, bellenuit.  I'd  heard figures that sounded as described in that link on one of Radio National's programs over the weekend, think it was re Galaxy polling. I've looked at the wrong source when trying to put up a link.  My apologies.


----------



## MrBurns

Looks like they hate Rudd so much they'd rather go down with the ship - 



> Senior ministers rally behind PM Julia Gillard as Rudd returns to Canberra
> 
> Senior federal ministers have rallied behind Prime Minister Julia Gillard as MPs gather in Canberra for the final sittings before the federal election.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-17/senior-ministers-rally-behind-pm/4760020


----------



## Bintang

Judd said:


> Nevertheless, the vitriol which has been heaped on Ms Gillard by some sections of the media, has been disrespectful, reprehensible and vile to her at a personal level and to the Office of Prime Minister.




You reap what you sow.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> From the Australian:
> 
> JULIA Gillard has reopened the gender wars as she fights off speculation about her leadership, declaring that the election of Tony Abbott would make abortion "the political plaything of men who think they know better".
> 
> In a speech at the launch of Women for Gillard, a Labor fundraising scheme aimed at female voters, the Prime Minister moved to make gender an election issue, declaring that only Labor could elect a female prime minister and warning that the election of a Coalition government on September 14 would "banish women's voices from our political life".
> 
> "I invite you to imagine it: a prime minister - a man in a blue tie - who goes on holidays to be replaced by a man in a blue tie," Ms Gillard said.
> 
> "A treasurer who delivers a budget wearing a blue tie, to be supported by a finance minister, another man in a blue tie. Women once again banished from the centre of Australia's political life."
> 
> The Prime Minister said the ALP was the party of women. "Labor is the party of equal opportunity," she said.
> 
> Arguing that the election of a Coalition government would see childcare, healthcare and superannuation slashed, Ms Gillard said the national disability insurance scheme should not be put "in the custody of a political party that didn't create it".
> 
> "Finally, but very importantly, we don't want to live in an Australia where abortion again becomes the political plaything of men who think they know better," Ms Gillard said.
> 
> 
> 
> After 3 odd years in the job she still has absolutely no idea of how to be a Prime Minister.
> 
> No class at all.
> 
> Once a bogan always a bogan.





As we said Dutchie, she is a slow learner and it is obvious McTernan hasn't learnt anything in his time here.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/pms-cynical-ploy-fails-to-win-voters-20130616-2ocev.html

Blind Freddy knew that was going to backfire, dumb as. 
They obviously haven't a clue on how the electorate reacts to constant smear, eventually they say" come on give the bloke a fair go". 
They are going to end up on about 25 to 30 seats.IMO
I reckon it is a lot worse than they think, the silent majority will hammer them. No way does Australia want to go through this fiasco again.


----------



## Bintang

drsmith said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-june-17-2013-20130617-2ocze.html




And not a single blue tie in sight.


----------



## drsmith

Jobs for the boys, well, err, um, the girls in this case.



> 1:34pm: Hmmm, that's interesting. The president of the board of the newly formed group Women for Gillard is Chloe Bryce who is married to the Minister for Workplace Relations, Bill Shorten (and is also the daughter of the Governor-General, Quentin Bryce).




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-june-17-2013-20130617-2ocze.html


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> Jobs for the boys, well, err, um, the girls in this case.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-june-17-2013-20130617-2ocze.html




Well I suppose that locks Bill in to the Men for Gillard cause. If he switched. Chloe and Quentin would boot him out...and who else would have him?

It's a bit strange actually, because it was Kevin and Therese who chose Quentin as G.G. Perhaps Chloe and Quentin are having a bet each way.


----------



## MrBurns

Gillard is prattling on in question time, I think this is good, the more she talks the worse the polls get.


----------



## Bintang

MrBurns said:


> Gillard is prattling on in question time, I think this is good, the more she talks the worse the polls get.




And the more she talks the less she says.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Gillard is prattling on in question time, I think this is good, the more she talks the worse the polls get.



She very grumpy today.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> She very grumpy today.




Very boring just bile thrown at the Libs, there's absolutely no purpose in question time the way it works now.
Gillard is just full of sarcastic infantile insults and says nothing at the end of it all


----------



## Julia

Judd said:


> THAT is how I am starting to feel and I resent it.
> 
> I don't care about the gender of our Prime Minister, I simply desire leadership and vision.  Some very good policies, albeit underfunded, have been proposed or enacted but I am not seeing leadership or inclusiveness.  Sadly, I still do not see that in Mr Rudd whose vision, from my perspective, is for himself and not the country.



This is what puzzles me about the apparent popularity of Mr Rudd.  Can't everyone see how entirely egocentric and narcissistic he is?  Don't they remember how pompous and inconsistent he was in office?

It's also worth noting John Stirton's comments this morning re the 2PP fifty/fifty poll result if Mr Rudd were leading Labor.  He pointed out that  he considers this an extremely optimistic scenario which fails to take into account the effects of the inevitable blood letting, resignation of ministers who would refuse to work for Rudd, etc.

He's right, of course.  If it happens, it's hardly likely to be with all the Labor caucus holding hands and singing Kumbaya.  I hope the Rudd backers consider the fall out before they accede to his demands for reinstatement.

I wonder if Ms Gillard acknowledges even to herself what a dreadful error she made in her hysterical rant about blue ties, abortion, abolition of women from parliament, etc, or whether her self belief (on a par with Kevin's) still allows her to blame the Rudd factor, the Abbott factor, or just the stupid Australian voters?


----------



## Judd

Bintang said:


> You reap what you sow.




In one short sentence, the attitude to which I was referring has been enunciated.


----------



## wayneL

Julia said:


> This is what puzzles me about the apparent popularity of Mr Rudd.  Can't everyone see how entirely egocentric and narcissistic he is?  Don't they remember how pompous and inconsistent he was in office?




I'm having trouble believing this too; any gu'mint led by Rudd could not function properly, given all the water under the bridge. It would be a shemozzle.


----------



## db94

In my opinion if Rudd did take over, it could have disastrous effects for Labor. People wont want a party in, that continually tries to back stab each other and that cant decide its leader. Couldn't the Libs go for a vote of no confidence if Rudd did contest and make leader? Rudd is a maniac with his condescending talk and evil smirk! Plus I wanna see the wipe-out that occurs if Gillard leads the party to the election  This speculation over leadership will do no justice to the next poll, could even be worse...


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> This is what puzzles me about the apparent popularity of Mr Rudd.  Can't everyone see how entirely egocentric and narcissistic he is?  Don't they remember how pompous and inconsistent he was in office?
> 
> It's also worth noting John Stirton's comments this morning re the 2PP fifty/fifty poll result if Mr Rudd were leading Labor.  He pointed out that  he considers this an extremely optimistic scenario which fails to take into account the effects of the inevitable blood letting, resignation of ministers who would refuse to work for Rudd, etc.
> 
> He's right, of course.  If it happens, it's hardly likely to be with all the Labor caucus holding hands and singing Kumbaya.  I hope the Rudd backers consider the fall out before they accede to his demands for reinstatement.
> 
> I wonder if Ms Gillard acknowledges even to herself what a dreadful error she made in her hysterical rant about blue ties, abortion, abolition of women from parliament, etc, or whether her self belief (on a par with Kevin's) still allows her to blame the Rudd factor, the Abbott factor, or just the stupid Australian voters?




I don't think many in the Labor party actually see Rudd as much more than a stop-gap measure to ensure that unloseable seats in Western Sydney are not lost. IMO, the basis for Rudd coming back is to make sure these heartland seats aren't lost. How electorates like Werriwa could possibly be falling to the Libs shows just how dire the ALP's position is.


----------



## sails

McLovin said:


> I don't think many in the Labor party actually see Rudd as much more than a stop-gap measure to ensure that unloseable seats in Western Sydney are not lost. IMO, the basis for Rudd coming back is to make sure these heartland seats aren't lost. How electorates like Werriwa could possibly be falling to the Libs shows just how dire the ALP's position is.





So you reckon they would just use him to save some furniture then dump him?  You would think he would be smart enough to know that Shorten is in his shadow and his time as PM is just as likely to be short lived after the election.


----------



## sptrawler

Amanda Vanstone sums it up perfectly and she isn't being nasty about, just sums up the problem well.IMO

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ers-contempt-upon-herself-20130616-2ocfn.html

No one to blame but herself, she is going to be hammered.


----------



## bigdog

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ize-files-on-awu/story-fng5kxvh-1226664754177

*Victoria Police seize files on AWU*

    by: Hedley Thomas
    From: The Australian
    June 17, 2013 12:00AM

POLICE from the Victorian Fraud Squad have seized boxes of legal documents from Julia Gillard's former employer, Slater & Gordon lawyers, as part of an ongoing probe into the AWU slush fund scandal.

The documents were removed from the firm's Melbourne offices after the execution of a search warrant and co-operation between the firm and detectives, sources told The Australian yesterday.

Fraud Squad detectives want to examine all legal files related to controversial legal work done by Ms Gillard and the firm for her then boyfriend, Bruce Wilson, the allegedly corrupt Australian Workers Union senior official, and his union sidekick, Ralph Blewitt, in the 1990s.

The legal files are subject to confidentiality provisions.

Mr Blewitt has previously waived confidentiality and has admitted to police his role in what he has described as a major fraud with Mr Wilson.

Mr Wilson and Ms Gillard, whose relationship ended over the AWU scandal in 1995, have repeatedly and strenuously denied any wrongdoing, and accused Mr Blewitt of being unreliable and a liar.

It is understood that while Mr Blewitt wants police to examine all AWU-related legal documents held by Slater & Gordon, Mr Wilson will seek to prevent police from examining the files that are relevant to him.

Slater & Gordon, which has pledged to co-operate with Victoria Police and any other investigating authorities, including a possible royal commission into unions foreshadowed by Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, has not represented the men for almost 17 years.

A spokesman for Slater & Gordon said yesterday: "We are not commenting on police matters."

Victoria Police, which has had a taskforce of detectives working on the AWU investigation since late 2012, have repeatedly declined to comment on their most sensitive probe. Police last month sought documents from the archives of the AWU's West Australian and Victorian branches, in which Mr Wilson and Mr Blewitt worked in the 1990s during the alleged fraud.

The legal work done at Slater & Gordon for the two men includes the Prime Minister's role in helping Mr Wilson establish the AWU Workplace Reform Association.

Ms Gillard says she provided legal advice to help set up the AWU Workplace Reform Association, which Mr Wilson later used to carry out the alleged fraud. She later described the association as a "slush fund" for the re-election of union officials, but said she had no knowledge of its operations.

The slush fund was used by Mr Wilson and Mr Blewitt to bill building company, Thiess, for hundreds of thousands of dollars for work that was not performed.

The union was not aware of the existence of the slush fund. Slater & Gordon was the law firm for the AWU at the time.

Money was withdrawn from the slush fund to purchase a $230,000 Fitzroy terrace house in Mr Blewitt's name at a 1993 auction Ms Gillard attended with Mr Wilson, who subsequently lived in the property. Slater & Gordon handled the conveyancing and helped provide finance.

Ms Gillard's work in helping establish the slush fund, leading to her abrupt departure as a salaried partner amid a breakdown in trust at the law firm, was revealed in The Australian last year with leaked letters and a transcript of the firm's tape-recorded September, 1995 interview with her.


----------



## sptrawler

I love this statement by Rudd "I will do anything to stop Tony Abbott becoming P.M.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...to-julia-gillard/story-fnho52jo-1226664874768

It begs the question,"why didn't you or Gillard do a better job"?

Then you wouldn't be in this position, what a dick.


----------



## Julia

sails said:


> So you reckon they would just use him to save some furniture then dump him?  You would think he would be smart enough to know that Shorten is in his shadow and his time as PM is just as likely to be short lived after the election.



Agree, sails.  It's unimaginable that Mr Rudd, especially after having been so shafted by the Labor Party, would  agree to returning to the leadership without some built in guarantee of tenure well beyond the September election.

And, McLovin, is it really possible that - given the well documented comments of Labor ministers about how impossible he was to work with, how dysfunctional his government, etc - Labor would really expose itself just prior to the election to the inevitable and completely justified repetition of all this, no doubt well coloured, as advertising by the Coalition?  They will already have their advertising agency with the ads ready to go imo.


----------



## MrBurns

If they brought Rudd back the Libs would have so much against him, so much they could throw at him that the advantage Labor would think they're getting would be greatly diminished by the time Sept 14th came around.


----------



## waza1960

> If they brought Rudd back the Libs would have so much against him, so much they could throw at him that the advantage Labor would think they're getting would be greatly diminished by the time Sept 14th came around.



 Agreed but what choice do Labor MPs have. Their situation is desperate and you have got to admit Rudd is good at campaigning.



> Agree, sails. It's unimaginable that Mr Rudd, especially after having been so shafted by the Labor Party, would agree to returning to the leadership without some built in guarantee of tenure well beyond the September election.




  I disagree I doubt if he is interested in leadership after the election it will be enough for him to unseat Gillard
  and have all the labor people bowing to him. He is more likely to position himself for a UN job after the election  IMO.


----------



## Julia

waza1960 said:


> I disagree I doubt if he is interested in leadership after the election it will be enough for him to unseat Gillard
> and have all the labor people bowing to him. He is more likely to position himself for a UN job after the election  IMO.



You might be right.  He is, after all, just about revenge.


----------



## jank

So abbot will probably be PM in a few months but I think he leaves a lot to be desired. I think people will quickly tire of him and give the ALP a shot at power in three years.


----------



## waza1960

> So abbot will probably be PM in a few months but I think he leaves a lot to be desired. I think people will quickly tire of him and give the ALP a shot at power in three years.



  Your POV is delusional IMO.
   I think Abbott will surprise a lot of people with his competence in the top job.
   Labor is gone for years = good for Australia


----------



## qldfrog

Hopefully, the libs will have more brain than Labor and replace TA after a while by someone who can unite this country and not loose the next (after this one) election..But I would not bet on this....
After all, TA is the only reason we have Julia  at the head now..but it seems it is not PC to tell that
As you can read above, not a fan of tony


----------



## Tink

The gender card should never have been played.
I cant see Rudd coming back in, the party is too divided.
Either way, they will lose the election dramatically.

The public have had enough, any mention of the Labor party when out and about and people get angry. 
Tells me it will be a wipe out.

This has been handed to Abbott on a silver platter.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Tink said:


> The gender card should never have been played.
> I cant see Rudd coming back in, the party is too divided.
> Either way, they will lose the election dramatically.
> 
> *The public have had enough, any mention of the Labor party when out and about and people get angry. *
> Tells me it will be a wipe out.
> 
> This has been handed to Abbott on a silver platter.




Yup. L**** has become it's own 4 letter word...and rightly so.

*Only* 88 days to go to finally get some reveng...errrr....relief.....


----------



## Judd

waza1960 said:


> snip.  I think Abbott will surprise a lot of people with his competence in the top job.




Just an observation but I get the impression that Mr Abbott is more astute than most think.  He seems to be able to focus when needs be.  I could be wrong.  Neither Ms Gillard not Mr Abbott are stupid individuals, quite the opposite.  However, Ms Gillard appears to have been poorly advised and allowed to become distracted and irritated by valid criticisms while Mr Abbott, appears more focused - although that could be a function of being in opposition and not currently responsible for programme outcomes.


----------



## db94

jank said:


> So abbot will probably be PM in a few months but I think he leaves a lot to be desired. I think people will quickly tire of him and give the ALP a shot at power in three years.




No way, Abbott is more clever than others think. He has after all been smart enough to keep quiet while the Labor party continually shoots itself in the foot. However I think we need to look at the party rather than just the leader, and from that the Libs will stay in for a long time.


----------



## gordon2007

I had the chance to meet with abbott personally a few weeks ago. I was quite surprised as he seemed quite personable. Nowhere near as standoffish or gruff as the press makes him out to be. 



Judd said:


> Just an observation but I get the impression that Mr Abbott is more astute than most think.


----------



## Calliope

Some good news for Julia at last. A survey conducted by the Australian Readers Digest on trust shows the Prime Minister ranks above politicians facing potential jail time, a sexist shock jock and troubled actor Matthew Newton in a survey of who Australians trust most.

Julia Gillard is 95th, followed only by Kyle Sandilands, Edie Obeid, Craig Thomson, Peter Slipper and Newton, in the Australian Readers Digest Trust Survey.

LEAST TRUSTED

100 Matthew Newton, actor

99 Peter Slipper, politician

98 Craig Thomson, politician

97 Eddie Obeid, former politician

96 Kyle Sandilands, radio announcer

95 Julia Gillard, prime minister

94 Christine Milne, Greens leader

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/sp...trust-these-days/story-fnho52jj-1226665249514


----------



## Julia

Judd said:


> Just an observation but I get the impression that Mr Abbott is more astute than most think.  He seems to be able to focus when needs be.  I could be wrong.  Neither Ms Gillard not Mr Abbott are stupid individuals, quite the opposite.  However, Ms Gillard appears to have been poorly advised and allowed to become distracted and irritated by valid criticisms while Mr Abbott, appears more focused - although that could be a function of being in opposition and not currently responsible for programme outcomes.




I tend to agree, Judd.  We'll only know when we see Mr Abbott actually as leader, but I suspect he has more integrity and basic decency than has been suggested.  And, as a Rhodes scholar, he's no intellectual slouch either.
I hope when he is elected, people will give him a fair go, and not just regard him as some sort of temporary fill in for the self-interested Malcolm Turnbull.  I think he does need to be very careful not to allow any of his personal religious stuff to affect policy.  

I'd have more faith in the Liberal advisers and mentors than those apparently available to Labor.


----------



## McLovin

sails said:


> So you reckon they would just use him to save some furniture then dump him?  You would think he would be smart enough to know that Shorten is in his shadow and his time as PM is just as likely to be short lived after the election.




I don't think they are expecting him to win the election, just to put in a better loss than Gillard will. It's about containing a loss, not playing for a win. If he did win then the ALP would be nuts to remove him. I don't think Rudd is all that interested in being opposition leader either. He wants to show just how popular he is. After that, he is probably more interested in being made ambassador to the UN.


----------



## MrBurns

If Rudd came back by the time the Libs had finished with him he'd be no more popular than Gillard, election result much the same.


----------



## Judd

Julia said:


> snip. And, as a Rhodes scholar, he's no intellectual slouch either.




True Julia, but so is Malcolm Turnbull - awarded in 1978 - and while such individuals have my respect for their achievements, I tend not to use these as being indicative of intelligence, especially in a political climate where I think adaptability to changing circumstances and appropriately managing that change is more reflective of being intelligent.  A number of members on this forum probably know of someone who could qualify for membership of Mensa but as so lacking in "intelligence" they would be lucky to be able to tie their own shoelaces.

Anyway, we will see come 14th September or beforehand if the baying hounds have their way.


----------



## sails

McLovin said:


> I don't think they are expecting him to win the election, just to put in a better loss than Gillard will. It's about containing a loss, not playing for a win. If he did win then the ALP would be nuts to remove him. I don't think Rudd is all that interested in being opposition leader either. He wants to show just how popular he is. After that, he is probably more interested in being made ambassador to the UN.




I think the unions would want one of their own in the unlikely event Rudd actually one a second election for them.  It seems they have no loyalty or scruples - they dumped the more popular Rudd last time for an increasingly unpopular Julia.

Now that she is polling much worse than Rudd when she knifed him, it seems that the polling was nothing more than excuse to get rid of Rudd after he had won the election for them.

Maybe that's not the case, but it sure gives that appearance.


----------



## fiftyeight

Just watched the re-run of Q&A and in the closing comments Tony Jones makes a comment that no Labor MP has volunteered to be on the show next week, could this be a sign of something brewing?


----------



## sptrawler

I see even Bob doesn't want to get caught up with dumb and dumber.lol

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...t-on-leadership-stalemate-20130618-2of0o.html

Maybe even he will vote for the coalition.

Anyway Labor has already got the answer to its problems, just go and ask McTernan.lol what a hoot


----------



## bunyip

What I find truly amazing is that Labor is likely to substantially boost their polling and their chances of winning the election if they boot out Gillard and replace her with Rudd.
People must have very short memories if they’re now going to throw their support behind a man who as PM was incompetent in the extreme and very unpopular with the electorate. So unpopular in fact that Labor was headed for a landslide defeat if they stuck with Rudd, which is precisely the reason they got rid of him.
Any voter willing to put Rudd into the top job for a second time must be naÃ¯ve in the extreme. 
Read below to see Rudd’s track record as PM.....it’s a nightmare of epic proportions. 

..................................................................................................................................................

_No matter who wins – we all lose.

It is easy to forget that it was Kevin Rudd who got us into the fiscal mess we are now in in the first place: Julia might have kept digging, but it was Kevin who dug the hole.

Don’t believe me? Have a look at Kevin’s track record.

It was Kevin who utterly destroyed our nation’s finances by taking a budget surplus and turning it into a $27 billion deficit in just one year. In two years, it reached a mind-blowing $60 billion.

It was Kevin who brought our Industrial Relations system back to the 1960’s – his Cabinet actually over-ruling Julia Gillard who wanted a more business-friendly system.The result? Plummeting international competitiveness, small business closures up 48%,and record numbers crippling strikes across Australia.

It was Kevin who depressed the economy by bringing  in failed tax after failed tax after failed tax. Remember the alcopops tax, which led to teenagers binge-drinking on spirits? The Mining Tax Mark 1, which would have crippled the most productive sector of our economy? The Superannuation Tax Hike? There is one thing all economists agree on: you don’t raise taxes in an economic downturn. Kevin Rudd hiked taxes not once, buteleven times.

And as for Kevin Rudd’s so-called stimulus, no credible economist – certainly no-one outside the Labor Cheerleaders in the ABC and Fairfax press and some hard-left taxpayer funded academics – believe it did anything but flush our money down the gurgler. In fact,  Treasury got so desperate to pretend it helped, they  got caught out faking the numbers in “Stimulusgate” by Professor Sinclair Davidson from RMIT! For a detailed peer-reviewed Analysis shredding Treasury modelling on the stimulus, I’d advise you to read our Deputy Director John Humphreys in the prestigious ANU journalAgenda)

In fact, even The Australian Treasury and the Parliamentary Budget Offices have now admitted that the deficit is structural, unsustainable, and the result of massive over-spending – all done by the Rudd Government.

And if you think Julia Gillard’s plan to censor the media was bad, Kevin Rudd wanted tocensor the entire internet!

And this isn’t even going into the debacles of pink batts, school halls, grocery watch, and what Kevin Rudd did to our nation’s borders.

Of course, Julia Gillard took all of this, and made it worse with a tax on carbon dioxide, more spending, and more waste – but at its core, the rot began with Rudd. As I said – no matter who wins this week, we all lose.

Sadly, it seems all our media care about is who occupies the top job – not what they do once they are there.

.
_


----------



## drsmith

Bob Hawke has wisely chosen to stay out of the nest of vipers. He wouldn't want his legacy tarnished by this mess and I can't say I blame him. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...t-on-leadership-stalemate-20130618-2of0o.html

As for Bill Shorten, he wouldn't even be any good as part of a side show game. His head nods up and down instead of sideways and at the risk of committing overweightogyny, he also looks like he could lose a few kg. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-wrap-june-18-2013-20130618-2of5j.html


----------



## drsmith

fiftyeight said:


> Just watched the re-run of Q&A and in the closing comments Tony Jones makes a comment that no Labor MP has volunteered to be on the show next week, could this be a sign of something brewing?



How it might play out,



> Mr Rudd's spokesman said it was likely the former prime minister would miss all or part of next week's caucus meeting - the last official caucus of this Parliament - to attend the service.
> 
> Julia Gillard will also attend the memorial and miss caucus.
> 
> It means any leadership showdown is likely to occur later next week via a special caucus meeting.
> 
> A special caucus meeting can be called by the leader of the party or via a petition with 30 signatures and 24 hours' notice.




Any new leader I doubt will want to front for questions from the Opposition in Parliament.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...r-caucus-meeting/story-fni0xqrb-1226665467381

As for Julia Gillard herself, she's on the plank and it's now just a question of the final push.



> When it came time for questions of the Prime Minister, there were none.
> 
> "It was embarrassing," one Rudd supporter said.
> 
> "One hundred and two caucus members and no one says anything."
> 
> Another in the Rudd camp said there was "a stony silence".
> 
> "When the leader doesn't get a question, you know you've got a problem," the source said.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ls-to-move-on-pm/story-fn59niix-1226665493770


----------



## drsmith

Next Thursday after Question Time is my tip.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Next Thursday after Question Time is my tip.




I don't think it will happen, too late, the whole nation will just give a collective groan and the Libs will go in for the kill and there's plenty of ammo, I think they're stuck with what they have.

Their only hope would be to have him take over the week before the election and capitalise on the shock value.


----------



## sptrawler

102 caucus members and not one question.

It says it all, "we are in deep $hit".lol,lol,lol

Just proves that Australians aren't mindless morons, that believe spin and bullying tactics. 
I think this election is going to be a display of a free thinking democracy.

Just shows you can't run a Country as you would a union meeting.


----------



## moXJO

MrBurns said:


> I don't think it will happen, too late, the whole nation will just give a collective groan and the Libs will go in for the kill and there's plenty of ammo, I think they're stuck with what they have.
> 
> Their only hope would be to have him take over the week before the election and capitalise on the shock value.




Next week is the last week to change leader I thought.


----------



## drsmith

Labor's difficulties are now clearly getting the better of Penny Wong and the PM as evidenced in Parliament today.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-p...une-18-2013-20130618-2of5j.html#ixzz2WZ00PEpi



This wouldn't have helped.



> 2:07pm: Shadow treasurer Joe Hockey didn't get the blue tie memo (but all the the other blokes on the Coalition front bench did). *Labor MPs Nick Champion, Darren Cheesman, Dick Adams, Chris Bowen, Richard Marles, Ed Husic, Stephen Jones, Joel Fitzgibbon and Kevin Rudd are also pro blue.*




http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-wrap-june-18-2013-20130618-2of5j.html

My bolds.


----------



## Julia

MrBurns said:


> I don't think it will happen, too late, the whole nation will just give a collective groan and the Libs will go in for the kill and there's plenty of ammo, I think they're stuck with what they have.
> 
> Their only hope would be to have him take over the week before the election and capitalise on the shock value.



Could they actually do that?  See moXJO's post below.  I'd have thought to change leaders so close to an election as that would be to abuse the rights of those who will have already voted via postal and special votes, and also seem entirely wrong, given the longest election campaign we can remember when they have presumably had more than enough time to select a leader.
Just can't see that happening, but I didn't see the assassination of Rudd coming either.



moXJO said:


> Next week is the last week to change leader I thought.






drsmith said:


> Labor's difficulties are now clearly getting the better of Penny Wong and the PM as evidenced in Parliament today.



Not just Ms Wong, it seems.  Ms Gillard - in response to a question from Julie Bishop - engaged in her usual obfuscating non-answer.  
I can't imagine the pressure Gillard must be feeling.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Could they actually do that?  See moXJO's post below.  I'd have thought to change leaders so close to an election as that would be to abuse the rights of those who will have already voted via postal and special votes, and also seem entirely wrong, given the longest election campaign we can remember when they have presumably had more than enough time to select a leader.
> .




I think there's a precedent but cant find it right now.


----------



## drsmith

Trish Crossin's valedictory swipe at Julia Gillard,

http://media.watoday.com.au/news/na...democratic-and-not-the-labor-way-4500372.html

Ouch!


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Not just Ms Wong, it seems.  Ms Gillard - in response to a question from Julie Bishop - engaged in her usual obfuscating non-answer.
> I can't imagine the pressure Gillard must be feeling.



I think she's come to a realisation about what her fate will be but is still having difficulty accepting it. This is made worse by it being the men from her own side trying to facilitate her downfall as PM now more than anyone else.

Penny Wong too I feel is in the same place regarding as Julia Gillard as PM.


----------



## Calliope

Bill Shorten takes an apocalyptic fit.


----------



## jank

waza1960 said:


> Your POV is delusional IMO.
> I think Abbott will surprise a lot of people with his competence in the top job.
> Labor is gone for years = good for Australia



Never under estimate the short term thinking of the electorate. We see it all over the world, at least I have. Paries once thought dead and buried are back in power after a few Years. Don't forget Australia is due a nasty recession and property crash. 
I would love the alp to be dead and buried but I am not delusional or that naive.


----------



## drsmith

jank said:


> Never under estimate the short term thinking of the electorate. We see it all over the world, at least I have. Paries once thought dead and buried are back in power after a few Years. Don't forget Australia is due a nasty recession and property crash.
> I would love the alp to be dead and buried but I am not delusional or that naive.



As has been the case with NSW Labor, I suspect the aftershocks of federal Labor's present problems will remind the electorate for some time to come.

Much though will also depend on the performance of the Coalition in government. They have a difficult task ahead and one I hope they don't underestimate or take for granted.


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> Could they actually do that?  See moXJO's post below.  I'd have thought to change leaders so close to an election as that would be to abuse the rights of those who will have already voted via postal and special votes, and also seem entirely wrong, given the longest election campaign we can remember when they have presumably had more than enough time to select a leader.
> Just can't see that happening, but I didn't see the assassination of Rudd coming either.




That's an interesting question, Julia. I'd hazard that it doesn't matter because, in theory, we are electing a member to the parliament not electing a leader. 

What would be interesting is if say Rudd wins the Labor leadership after Parliament rises but before the writs are issued and the independents say they have lost faith in the government. Can the GG recall the parliament in order to test confidence in the government? Obviously if it wasn't, then both houses could be dissolved which would create a far worse scenario for Labor than an ordinary election. If the independents said they were swapping to support the Coalition then it could get even more farcical with Abbott becoming the caretaker PM until September elections.


----------



## dutchie

The electorate is going to be mighty upset with Labor if they can't use their baseball bats without Gillard as the leader.

We deserve to be able to send the message to Gillard.


----------



## Judd

dutchie said:


> The electorate is going to be mighty upset with Labor if they can't use their baseball bats without Gillard as the leader.
> 
> We deserve to be able to send the message to Gillard.




A large portion of the voting population probably feels the same way.  But you know what is even more sad?  That very, very few of our politicians, in my view, live up to the title "Honourable."


----------



## Calliope

Judd said:


> A large portion of the voting population probably feels the same way.  But you know what is even more sad?  That very, very few of our politicians, in my view, live up to the title "Honourable."




The Honourable  Julia of course has no "self-interests". She just wants her mob to put her "self-interests" ahead of Australia's "self-interests".



> While the ACTU was being briefed on the polling yesterday, Ms Gillard was appealing to her colleagues in the Labor caucus meeting to put the Labor Party ahead of "self-interest".


----------



## IFocus

Julia said:


> Could they actually do that?  See moXJO's post below.





Parliament doesn't have to be sitting for parties to elect new leaders or in this case of Labor a new PM. My understanding is it can be any time a party decides its required or desired.

As missed by some of the most ardent critics here claims of a illegitimate government (straight out of the US Republican hand book) the PM is only ever elected by elected MPs never the Australian public.


----------



## Calliope

The Moment of Truth.



> Meanwhile, this portrait of Craig Emerson yesterday perhaps captures the precise moment the Trade Minister fully apprehended the true state of modern Australian politics. (If you need to leave the planet and don't have the necessary $20 million to give the Russian space agency, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy contains some excellent tips.)



 The Australian


----------



## MrBurns

Outgoing Labor MP Steve Gibbons gives valedictory speech to Parliament

This guy was sticking it right to the Govt  BIG TIME over their move to take funds from accounts dormant for 3 years instead of 7 when the broadcast was mysteriously terminated by the ABC............how convenient.


----------



## bigdog

MrBurns said:


> Outgoing Labor MP Steve Gibbons gives valedictory speech to Parliament
> 
> This guy was sticking it right to the Govt  BIG TIME over their move to take funds from accounts dormant for 3 years instead of 7 when the broadcast was mysteriously terminated by the ABC............how convenient.




Can someone please provide link to view Steve Gibbons valedictory speech to Parliament!!


----------



## MrBurns

bigdog said:


> Can someone please provide link to view Steve Gibbons valedictory speech to Parliament!!




It was on News 24 so I don't know if that goes to Iview, nothing on the news and nothing on 730

Will be watching Lateline and sent a message to Media Watch...


----------



## Julia

bigdog said:


> Can someone please provide link to view Steve Gibbons valedictory speech to Parliament!!



It's probably too soon for the speech to be up on his website or related sites.
Probably will be available tomorrow.  
Not sure why anyone is especially interested in Mr Gibbons?


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> It's probably too soon for the speech to be up on his website or related sites.
> Probably will be available tomorrow.
> Not sure why anyone is especially interested in Mr Gibbons?




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20515&p=779273&viewfull=1#post779273

It was very nasty, accusing the Govt of fiscal incompetence and using the money of ordinary Australians to help their bottom line look better, he has had phone calls to his office from people who have had money in the bank for their grandkids and it's just disappeared.
He was hard at it when the screen went to the 24 logo and they switched to something else.


----------



## bigdog

Julia said:


> It's probably too soon for the speech to be up on his website or related sites.
> Probably will be available tomorrow.
> Not sure why anyone is especially interested in Mr Gibbons?




*Outgoing Labor MP Steve Gibbons gives valedictory speech to Parliament

This guy was sticking it right to the Govt BIG TIME over their move to take funds from accounts dormant for 3 years instead of 7 when the broadcast was mysteriously terminated by the ABC............how convenient.*



MrBurns said:


> Outgoing Labor MP Steve Gibbons gives valedictory speech to Parliament
> 
> This guy was sticking it right to the Govt  BIG TIME over their move to take funds from accounts dormant for 3 years instead of 7 when the broadcast was mysteriously terminated by the ABC............how convenient.


----------



## drsmith

Steve Gibbons valedictory speech would have to have been a doozie to outdo Trish Crossin's yesterday.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Steve Gibbons valedictory speech would have to have been a doozie to outdo Trish Crossin's yesterday.




It's a mystery can't see it reported at all yet, the focus is all on Crossin's speech.
Perhaps Media Watch will pick it up, I sent details to them yesterday .


----------



## bigdog

MrBurns said:


> It's a mystery can't see it reported at all yet, the focus is all on Crossin's speech.
> Perhaps Media Watch will pick it up, I sent details to them yesterday .




Steve Gibbons valedictory speech - will it be documented in Hansard today?


----------



## MrBurns

bigdog said:


> Steve Gibbons valedictory speech - will it be documented in Hansard today?




I dunno, I'm surprised the media weren't all over it.


----------



## sails

bigdog said:


> Steve Gibbons valedictory speech - will it be documented in Hansard today?




I found this but I don't have a subscription to the Australian, so not sure if it gives the whole speech:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...dbye-to-all-that/story-fn59niix-1226666530852


----------



## MrBurns

sails said:


> I found this but I don't have a subscription to the Australian, so not sure if it gives the whole speech:
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...dbye-to-all-that/story-fn59niix-1226666530852




Here it is - 

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/63afe481-6097-4111-97a1-ade20535e053/0176"

I wonder what I was looking at....???


----------



## bigdog

*Hansard today - could not find statement related to "over their move to take funds from accounts dormant for 3 years instead of 7"*

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...dr/63afe481-6097-4111-97a1-ade20535e053/0000"

 Mr GIBBONS (Bendigo) (17:13): on indulgence: how do I follow an act like the delightful Dr Mal Washer? I wish him well.

I am going to start with the thankyous because I do not want to miss out on people who deserve to be thanked. I will start with my campaign team over what has been almost 15 years. I am talking about Liese Venson, Sue McKenzie, Mardy Stradbrook, Elaine Walsh and Bill Murray. Then, of course, there is my staff. I understand they are all watching this on the Sky channel in the office, probably drinking copious cups of tea and coffee. To Sue McKenzie, Liese, Elaine, Mardy Stradbrook, Jacinta Allen, Elaine Harrington, Neil Wilson””Neil is, unfortunately, no longer on this earth, but I will never forget the day he came to the office to deliver a phone message and his tie was completely shredded. He had leaned over the shredder to do something, and his tie dangled into it. He had this big, silly grin on his face and a shredded tie. Lorna Erwin, Peter Downs, the late Richard Clarke, Shannon Farley, Cassie Farley, Sandra Shenhul, Natalie Pretlove, Jackie Diamond, Katie Conway, Fabian Reed, Mark Dericott, Bill Muray, Jamie Driscoll, Stuart McKenzie and Louise Fisher.

Of course I have to thank my wife, Diane. We have been constant companions since we were both 17 years of age. She has been a tower of strength for me. Our relationship has endured 35 years of the music sector, 35 years involvement in politics””and my support for the Collingwood Football Club. I would be lost without her.

I thought I would start by talking about my first speech in this House. I remember it well because we had a whip at that stage called Leo McLeay, and Leo used to delight in making things very difficult for people, especially if you happened to be from the Left. He did not even give me a day's notice: he told me on the day that I would be delivering my first speech later that afternoon””to which I said, 'Thank you very much.' So I had the speech prepared, and I remember sitting down just prior to the time I was due to get up, looking through the pages and noticing page 2 was missing. So I got up, sprinted out of the chamber, down the corridor, into the lift, up to the second floor, into my office, printed it off again, got all the way back and sat down just prior to getting the call. Of course, when I stood up to start delivering the speech I was puffing, panting and sweating. I could hear voices saying, 'Look, the poor soul, he's nervous, he's very concerned.' The truth is I was only slightly nervous but I was totally knackered!

On to more serious matters. I joined the Australian Labor Party on 3 September 1976. I remember that precise date because I got married on 4 September 1976. It was Labor's opposition to the war in Vietnam and particularly the influence of the late Dr Jim Cairns that guided me into 37 years of party membership and resulted in my election to this place in 1998. I am extremely proud of what we have been able to achieve since that date, and when I say 'we' I am talking about my office and the people associated with it.

Naturally I would have liked to have served on the front bench, in opposition or in government, administering a portfolio, but that was not to be. I had to defend some very narrow margins in the Bendigo electorate, especially during the early years, and I could not see any point in being away from the electorate to the extent required to manage a portfolio and then losing the seat as a result. Besides, during my first three parliamentary terms, to be available for promotion you had to kiss the backside of some of the subfactional warlords, usually self-appointed, to be guaranteed a spot. I was never prepared to do that. And as I am the sole member of my own subfaction, it would have been a little difficult for me to perform that task, actually. We changed the method of frontbench appointments in 2008 to allow the leader to select the team. I opposed that then and I still do. Consequently, I did not spend any time waiting, nor did I expect a phone call re promotion from either leader””and, of course, neither of them disappointed me.

But I am more than happy in what we””my office””have achieved. Our office has responded to more than 150,000 inquiries, always in a courteous and professional manner. For the period of 2007 to 2013 under the Labor governments, the Bendigo electorate has received more than $1.26 billion of federal government funding to improve community, education and health facilities, to maintain employment and social cohesion, to improve living standards and to address some of the major challenges facing our community, such as climate change and future communications needs.

I am proud to be a member of a party that has initiated milestone initiatives like: the price on carbon; exceptional management of the impact of the global financial crisis; low unemployment; low inflation and a low interest rate; the AAA credit rating; national education reform; the national disability scheme; the National Broadband Network; the resource rent tax, which is tax on mining company superprofits; the Murray-Darling Basin reform; and the apology to the stolen generation. It was very moving when Prime Minister Kevin Rudd delivered that great speech and it was a great privilege to be in the chamber then.

There have been a range of local campaigns which I am proud to be associated with. The Calder Highway campaign was a classic. We had a four-year campaign of struggle to get the Howard government to honour its commitment and fund a duplicated highway from Melbourne all the way to Bendigo. That was a major struggle and I am pleased to say it was delivered just prior to the 2007 election. The opposition, the Liberals, took the view then that they had no chance of winning the seat of Bendigo unless that was completed. They completed it, and I still won the seat. I am very proud of that.

There was the big campaign to maintain the Bushmaster contract. You would all be familiar with the Bushmaster, the armoured personnel carrier that is saving lives in Afghanistan as we speak. In 1997 the initial contract was signed with what was then Australian Defence Industries when the ADI Bushmaster protected mobility vehicle was chosen as the preferred option over the ASVS Taipan vehicle to proceed to the next stage. A production contract was signed with ADI for 370 Bushmasters to be delivered by 2002. There was and, believe it or not, there is still considerable opposition from senior Army and defence personnel regarding the suitability of the Bushmaster vehicle, with a clear preference from some for an overseas product. I still cannot believe that that exists today, even after all the success. In 2001 Peter Reith replaced John Moore as the defence minister and, after receiving a Defence recommendation, announced he intended cancelling the Bushmaster contract.

Labor made the Bushmaster contract and the Calder Highway the main issues in the 2001 federal election campaign. The Howard government won that election, but I was re-elected on that particular platform. In 2002 I took a deputation to the new defence minister, Senator Robert Hill, to argue the case for retaining the contract with what was then still Australian Defence Industries. On 26 June 2002 Defence Minister Hill announced that the government would honour a revised Bushmaster contract with ADI, with a reduced number of vehicles””I think it was down from 370 to 299. Thales Bendigo have now produced 1,000 Bushmasters. Just last Friday we celebrated the one-thousandth machine, and the former Minister for Defence Materiel, Jason Clare, told a large gathering of Thales employees recently that the ADF estimated that Bushmasters have saved close to 300 lives, mostly Australian, in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am very, very proud of that.

The Australian Department of Defence LAND 121 Phase 4 vehicle replacement program will provide the ADF with up to 1,300 light protected mobility vehicles, or PMV-Ls, and some non-armoured vehicles to replace part of the current Land Rover fleet. Thales, the company that now owns ADI, had designed and built the Hawkei PMV-L to compete for this contract and, again, there was and still is, believe it or not, considerable opposition to Australian design from the Defence department, both military and civilian. On 23 April 2009, I took a briefing from the most senior people in the DMO on the LAND 121 Phase 4 project and the officials told me””and I had my senior staff member, Stuart Mackenzie, with me at the time””that they did not believe Thales was capable of producing a light protected mobility vehicle. So we started an intensive lobbying campaign similar to the Bushmaster campaign of those earlier years.

On 26 May 2010, the Minister for Defence Materiel and Science, Greg Combet, announced funding for three Australian manufactured PMV-L vehicles to compete against the US JLTV. Thales, Force Protection and General Dynamics each received up to $9 million to develop prototypes. Thales' Hawkei was the only Australian designed and manufactured prototype in the competition. On 24 February 2011, Thales delivered two Hawkei prototypes to Defence for an intensive test and appraisal process. A recommendation to government on the preferred Australian PMV-L to compete with the successful US JLTV was anticipated later that year, with 2013 or early 2014 cited as a possible date for financial decision and a contract negotiation.

On 19 April, 300 people rallied in Bendigo in support of Australian defence manufacturing and Thales vehicle contracts. The Thales Hawkei won the Australian Defence Force 'Down Select' process””what we call the preferred tenderer status. This is the vehicle that they said Thales would never build and suddenly it had won the Down Select. It is now the preferred vehicle.

Defence minister, Stephen Smith, announced future prototype development funding for the Hawkei program. Thales has been granted another $38 million for Hawkei prototype development under the Defence Materiel Organisation first pass approval process and this brings the total Commonwealth investment to $47 million. So I am particularly proud of that. That is a contract worth potentially between $1.3 billion to Bendigo. Final testing and prototype development will continue throughout 2013-14 when contract negotiations should commence. All the hard work has been done and I think that the only risk that could lose a contract worth potentially $1.3 billion to $1.5 billion is the election of a coalition government. Both Tony Abbott and shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey have refused to guarantee that they will support funding for prototype development for the Hawkei, and that is a real shame. But I am confident that Labor will win the election anyway and it will be fine.

One of the other big campaigns I am proud to be associated with was the Defence Imagery and Geospatial Organisation, or DIGO. There was a recommendation from the Defence department to relocate that from Bendigo, where it has been since 1942, up to Canberra with about 130 jobs associated with it. Again we waged a major campaign and a deputation to Defence Minister Robert Hill. Bendigo has a lot to thank Senator Robert Hill for, I must say. He has been very, very supportive in giving us appointments in the first place, listening to the argument and then acting on it, usually in our favour. So I am always indebted to him. He announced that DIGO would stay in Bendigo. They would vacate Fortuna, the old historic mansion, and move to a new building which was yet to be built at a cost of about $11 million, and that has happened.

Another defence-related Bendigo success story is Australian Defence Apparel, ADA. This innovative company manufactures uniforms and personal body armour for defence requirements. One of the things I am very proud about in our defence manufacturing capability in Bendigo is the fact that we only make things that save lives; we do not make things that kill people. All our defence manufacturing is very philosophically pure. We make things like Bushmasters, that have saved 300 lives, and armour protection that saves the lives of people who serve in war zones.

I want to particularly acknowledge the outstanding contribution to Bendigo's economy through ADA by its founder, Brian Rush, who really needs to be canonised. He took on this company, bought it from Australian Defence Industry and privatised it. It is a privatisation success story that I am almost reluctant to talk about for obvious reasons, but it is a great success story and it is Brian's stewardship that it has certainly done it.

ADA has always invested its own resources into research and development and is constantly developing new products, like ceramics for lifesaving body armour, and, far from just sitting around waiting for lucrative government contracts, Brian Rush has always had the courage to invest in new materials and new products. And I am sure that under the new CEO David Giles Kaye we will also see ADA continue to provide innovative solutions in armour protection for our service men and women.

I have deliberately spent some time during this speech on Bendigo's defence and defence industry sector, and for a good reason. It is vital to our economy and jobs. In fact research by the City of Greater Bendigo Council””research that my office, or I, commissioned””showed that the sector is worth a massive $750 million in total output per year to Bendigo's economy and is responsible for around 830 direct jobs, with a full consumption effect of over 1,600 indirect jobs. Defence and defence manufacturing are vital components of the Bendigo economy.

I am particularly proud of the campaign we waged to make sure that the La Trobe University campus in Bendigo stayed, a major university in Bendigo, and that it was not gutted with all of the resources going to Bundoora””and I know that the member for Scullin and my good friend the member for Batman probably shared that same view. I commissioned four well-known Bendigo identities, Andrew Cairns, Jan Boynton, Ian McBean and my former chief of staff, the late Richard Clarke, to prepare a report on La Trobe University's future in Bendigo and the impact that it makes in Bendigo's economy. It is a major powerhouse in Bendigo's economy. They produced a great report, and when La Trobe was going through its own processes of what they called 'vertical integration', they actually adopted a lot of the recommendations from that report that I had commissioned. So I am particularly proud of that.

I am particularly proud of the campaign to preserve the book-printing industry in Maryborough, and my good mate the member for Hotham, sitting in front of me, would be well aware of that. He has been there and has visited plenty of times. Maryborough is a very small community in my electorate of Bendigo. It is one of the most depressed regions in Bendigo and this had the potential to devastate the biggest employer in that town. I lobbied cabinet ministers and just about everybody who would listen that this was a very, very silly move to make and I am pleased to say that the cabinet finally resolved in my favour””by one vote. But it was enough.

I am indebted to the local Bendigo media because, without their interest and assistance, the campaigns that I have just mentioned would have been much harder, and much, much harder. I am pleased to say that I have had an effective relationship with the Canberra press gallery; I have never annoyed them too much and by and large they have left me alone””and I appreciate that. That system worked very well!

I have been fortunate enough to make some lasting friendships from all sides of this House and from the staff””security staff, attendants and COMCAR drivers. I have enjoyed working with members opposite, and on various committees over the past 15 years, and I refer particularly to the member for Hinkler, the member for Barker and the member for New England, among others. In all seriousness, this parliament, and indeed this nation, is fortunate to have someone of the calibre of Tony Windsor in its ranks. I wish him well for the forthcoming election.

There are two members of the opposition that I regard as close friends. I will not name them””

Honourable members interjecting””Name them! Name them!

Mr GIBBONS: I will not name them because I do not want to embarrass them! But then again, the former member for Corangamite used to do a great job of embarrassing himself. Particularly, I say to all of them and to those who I am referring to, that friends of mine are friends for life.

This 43rd parliament has been particularly difficult and we have all had to make sacrifices. I have had to refrain from enjoying that extra scotch before dinner for fear of knocking myself out and missing a division! But sacrifices had to be made.

Valedictory speeches are a time for reflection, and generally for reflection about the past. I am going to be serious for a minute and now would like to spend a few moments reflecting on our nation's future, in particular two of the challenges that will face my successor as the member for Bendigo and the 44th parliament as a whole.

The first of these is climate change. Scientists tell us that the actions that the world takes in the next decade will be critical; critical to whether we manage to slow the effects of man-made global warming during the 21st century, or whether we leave our children and grandchildren to contend with potentially catastrophic changes to their way of life. I am proud of the fact that Labor came into office in 2007 recognising the importance of this challenge, and I am proud that as I leave this House Australia is doing its part by reducing its greenhouse gas emissions. The carbon-pricing scheme introduced into this parliament has placed Australia among the 35 countries and 13 regions that have implemented emissions trading schemes. Just yesterday, the city of Shenzhen in China launched an ETS that covers more emissions than Australia's entire carbon market. We have started doing our part, and it would be a tragedy if the anti-science attitude from the vested interests manages to divert us from that course.

The second great challenge for the next and subsequent parliaments is the shift of economic and political power from the Western nations to Asia. As the government's white paper recognises, the rise of Asia will be a defining feature of the 21st century. Within the life of the next couple of parliaments, Asia will not only be the world's largest producer of goods and services but will also be the world's largest consumer of them. It is already the most populous region in the world, and it will soon become home to most of the world's middle-class””I do not really like to use that term.

And we must not forget that there is more to Asia than India and China. Our nearest neighbour, Indonesia, is the fourth-largest country in the world. Its 17,000 islands command the air and sea approaches to Australia, yet still we know so little about this country that is on our own doorstep and which is already the 15th-largest economy in the world. It is somewhere we fly over on the way to somewhere else, or go to to enjoy the beaches. The changes going on to our north represent terrific opportunities for this country if we have the courage to take them.

But in order to do this, we must make some changes too. We have to be prepared to increase our engagement with the region. If we better understand its people and its cultures, we can be a major beneficiary of Asia's rising position in the world. Steering the country through these changes will be a major challenge for members of future parliaments. I leave this House optimistic about our nation's future; optimistic that we will be able to deal with the major challenges and take advantage of the opportunities that we face in the 21st century.

And that is probably an appropriate note on which to conclude my final speech in this place. I thank you all for attending.

The SPEAKER: I would like to congratulate the member for Bendigo on his speech and wish him well in his retirement from this place.


----------



## bigdog

sails said:


> I found this but I don't have a subscription to the Australian, so not sure if it gives the whole speech:
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...dbye-to-all-that/story-fn59niix-1226666530852




I can only read the first two paragraphs - can you post the full article?


----------



## MrBurns

I've sent a message to News 24 asking for clarification, perhaps it was an old speech broadcast in error and that's why it was terminated in such a hurry, if I get any feedback I'll let you know.


----------



## Julia

Nothing controversial in Mr Gibbons' speech as far as I can see from a quick scan of it.

Trish Crossin, on the other hand, didn't hold back and neither should she.  Her being so shafted by Gillard was disgusting, a point also made by Doug Cameron and another of her colleagues.


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## dutchie

Gillard to visit Indonesia to talk about illegal boats, two months before she is kicked out - what a great idea.


----------



## MrBurns

Julia said:


> Nothing controversial in Mr Gibbons' speech as far as I can see from a quick scan of it.
> 
> Trish Crossin, on the other hand, didn't hold back and neither should she.  Her being so shafted by Gillard was disgusting, a point also made by Doug Cameron and another of her colleagues.




News 24 must have put that clip up by mistake, don't know where it came from now.



dutchie said:


> Gillard to visit Indonesia to talk about illegal boats, two months before she is kicked out - what a great idea.




Just going over the muddy the waters for the Libs before she gets the a***.


----------



## Knobby22

These valedictory speeches are all a bit sad.
Some have lost the respect of the party and so have hardly anyone listening, others are whinges abut why they didn't make it and party politics, others seem to be in a fantasy land.

The Labor party needs desperately to reform.


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## drsmith

Note the general lack of noise in the house.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...m-to-hanson-in-457-attack-20130620-2okoy.html


----------



## Julia

That was a good speech by Mr Abbott.
However, he needs to be a bit careful about his accusations of hypocrisy, however well targeted they are toward the government.

He himself is labouring the point about the dreadful impost of the carbon tax on business, whilst proposing to levy another great big new tax on business for his way too generous parental leave scheme.
Can't have it both ways, Tony.

Seems to me a bit foolish to leave yourself so vulnerable to justifiable suggestions of hypocrisy.


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> That was a good speech by Mr Abbott.
> However, he needs to be a bit careful about his accusations of hypocrisy, however well targeted they are toward the government.
> 
> He himself is labouring the point about the dreadful impost of the carbon tax on business, whilst proposing to levy another great big new tax on business for his way too generous parental leave scheme.
> Can't have it both ways, Tony.
> 
> Seems to me a bit foolish to leave yourself so vulnerable to justifiable suggestions of hypocrisy.




For everyones expectation of Abbott making a gaff or saying something stupid, over the last three years he really hasn't put a foot wrong.
To now expect him to blow his feet off with a dumb policy, seems premature.
I would expect if or when he takes office, hard and fast policy, would be decided.


----------



## noco

So yound Billy has lost the confidence of the Prime Minister and has been kicked out of the inner circle.

He might even talk to his MUMMY-IN-LAW about this and suggest she disolve parliament.

Ah yes, there will fun and games in parliament at the end of next week and in the meantime, the boats still arrive everyday, the ecomomy gets worse, we still borrow $100,000,000 each day, the country is divided and the circus in Canberra continues to perform with a female clown.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-decision-making/story-fn59niix-1226667155632


----------



## Calliope

Paul Howes says the Unions will decide who become PM of Australia and how they get there.



> DON'T believe the tricky wordplay of union powerbrokers springing to the defence of Julia Gillard's embattled leadership.
> 
> Of course no union secretary "directs" members of the parliamentary party how to vote in leadership ballots. They don't have to.
> 
> When Paul Howes went on live national television to call for the removal of a first-term prime minister in 2010, Labor MPs received the message loud and clear.
> 
> The AWU secretary was not the only powerbroker making calls to Canberra or using the media to communicate his views. So did key figures from the shoppies union, the Transport Workers Union and the (then respectable) Health Services Union.
> 
> While it is doubtful they needed to go public or make calls to shore up support for Gillard to topple Kevin Rudd, their involvement sealed the deal.
> 
> That they are now sending a message they won't stand in the way of a leadership change or seek to influence caucus members' votes is significant.
> 
> Of course they'll pledge public support for the Prime Minister. But, privately, few of them are strong-arming MPs to stick with Gillard. How can they?
> 
> ACTU and Labor polling reveals the diabolical standing of the government. Ironically, it was in these same circumstances that Howes and others made their move against Rudd.
> 
> *And ignore the absurd suggestion that union leaders don't, or can't, influence caucus members how to vote.
> 
> There are many caucus members who owe their Labor preselections to union support. Unions exert enormous influence inside the party, particularly over the preselection of MPs. If MPs challenge this power, their own positions will be in jeopardy.*
> 
> In 1983 ACTU president Cliff Dolan undermined Bill Hayden's leadership of the party and urged MPs to back Bob Hawke as leader.
> 
> While a senior serving union figure is unlikely to call for Gillard to resign, ignore the nonsense that it hasn't happened before or that unions can't make their views known in other ways.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...eceive-a-message/story-fnbcok0h-1226667115707


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## Logique

Quite the hit list:

Kevin Rudd - tick
Trish Crossin - tick
Budget Surplus - tick
Blue Tie wearers - tick
Electricity bills - tick
Industries - tick
Unionism - tick
Feminism - tick
ALP - tick

The current ALP leadership (PM + Praetorian Guard) must go to the election, back off Kevin Rudd.


----------



## drsmith

Does Bill Shorten continue to support Julia Gillard as PM until the next election ?

One gets the impression he's not too happy with his day job at the moment.  He gets very testy just before half way through.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ZliuH-KVE&feature=player_embedded


----------



## drsmith

As for Kevin Rudd himself, note the change in context of his original "no circumstances" pledge from the fallout of the leadership no-show back in March.

Then,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqGnE5pp3BA

And today as per the embedded video,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ship-speculation/story-fn59niix-1226667351778


----------



## drsmith

Oh Kev, he's done it again.

Gary Gray and Ed Husic are now publically crossing swords over Kevin's earlier comments.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/put-up-or-shut-up-gray-tells-rudd-20130621-2omj9.html

According to the ABC, Gary Gray's comments are about Team Gillard trying to flush Kevin Rudd out into the open.


----------



## wayneL

Well done Labor, surely the most ignominious period in Australian politics... ever


----------



## IFocus

wayneL said:


> Well done Labor, surely the most ignominious period in Australian politics... ever




Nope thats still to come with the Abbott Government


----------



## Boggo

Its an oldie but a funny reminder of one of their great achievements...

_Even though he only had one tattoo I yearned for him to fill the lonely hours between Jerry Springer and Days of our Lives.
As he approached me with his pasty white arms hanging out of his Nike vest, his smile told me that it was dole day and I knew that my velour track suit would be hanging off the lampshade tonight.

As I stood in line at the job centre,... thinking of reasons why I couldn't work, a sweet smell drifted past my pig like nostrils. It was a mixture of weed, sweat and Lynx Africa! I turned and there he was, DWAYNE, with his pants half way down his ****, our eyes met and he was soon lifting me onto the wheelie bins behind Woolies.
He had already tied his Staffy to a post in the alley way so we would not be disturbed, there was a tramp watching but it did not bother us, just added to the mystery.

I knew then that this was love and my life would never be the same again.
_
_I made a promise to him there and then that I would buy him a plasma with the baby bonus._


----------



## noco

I am of the firm belief Labor wants to lose this election because of the gigantic mess they have created. It has presented a problem for them which they do not know how to solve. They just do not have a solution on how to rectify it.

So they will leave this unholy mess for the coalition to resolve.

Yeah, nice people I must say.


----------



## wayneL

IFocus said:


> Nope thats still to come with the Abbott Government




I suppose nothing's impossible IF. That Labor mole Malcolm Turnbull is sure to create some disunity, but let's be honest, it would have to be nothing short of an apocalyptic meltdown of the Coalition to top the current self induced Labor holocaust. 

Ergo, extremely low probability.


----------



## noco

Nobody seems to be able to predict what will happen next week with the Labor leadership, not even Laurie Oaks.

This show is like the DAYS OF OUR LIVES,it just seems to go on and on but the finale epiode is not far away.

The 14th September can't come quick enough.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...d-disaster-movie/story-fnihsr9v-1226667822747


----------



## Logique

Et tu Carlton?

As from a sinking ship.

_With regret, Gillard must go, for nation's sake_ - SMH 22 June
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/with-...ations-sake-20130621-2onnn.html#ixzz2WtYqZy3V


----------



## Calliope

John McTernan, the porridge-eater face of Gillard adviser bastardry, and 457 rorting.



> JULIA Gillard's office is flouting Freedom of Information rules and refusing to hand over documents relating to the hiring of her communications director John McTernan, a Scotsman on a 457 visa for foreign workers.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...or-john-mcternan/story-fn6tcxar-1226667858681


----------



## bigdog

PM's office breaches FoI rules for spin doctor John McTernan

by:HEDLEY THOMAS, NATIONAL CHIEF CORRESPONDENT
From:The Australian
June 22, 2013

JULIA Gillard's office is flouting Freedom of Information rules and refusing to hand over documents relating to the hiring of her communications director John McTernan, a Scotsman on a 457 visa for foreign workers.

The Office of the Information Commissioner told The Weekend Australian yesterday that it had formally rejected the Office of the Prime Minister's request for more time to process the documents. Ms Gillard's office has already been granted two extensions

The Weekend Australian in early April sought all documents relating to the hiring of Mr McTernan in 2011 as chief spin doctor for the Prime Minister. His previous job on a 457 visa was as "Thinker in Residence" in Adelaide for Mike Rann's state Labor government.

Other documents sought related to any efforts taken to identify a suitable person in Australia for the role, such as advertising, the engagement of recruitment agencies or direct contact with media outlets and highly qualified local journalists.

A former key adviser for the Labour Party in Britain, Mr McTernan has been blamed over some of Ms Gillard's most divisive political strategies, including class warfare and misogyny.

Deputy opposition leader Julie Bishop said the delay was unacceptable, adding: "Is the Prime Minister covering up a rort of a 457 visa in her own office?"

The Weekend Australian asked Ms Gillard's office if the documents were being delayed because they could show that Mr McTernan's appointment was one of the results of allegedly widespread 457 visa rorting.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inv...r-1226667858681


----------



## sails

IFocus said:


> Nope thats still to come with the Abbott Government




LOL - this labor lot that you keep supporting are going to be hard to beat for the ignominious title.

Gillard now denying FOI requests for McTernan and I also understand she has denied them over the infringements on her PM's car which is provided by taxpayers.

I can just imagine your furore if Abbott did this...


----------



## drsmith

Paul Kelly's views on the status of the Rudd/Gillard civil war including the role of the GG,



> Note, however, that Gillard was the architect of minority government. Remember that if Gillard is deposed by caucus it is Gillard who writes first to the Governor-General.
> 
> The normal process is to inform the G-G the party has elected a new leader and advise the G-G to commission that new leader as prime minister. Might, however, Gillard be tempted to include in her letter, advice that Rudd be commissioned "on the basis of confidence from the parliament"? Why not? It would be perfectly proper.




This could perhaps be Julia Gillard's last line of defence.


----------



## MrBurns

Doesn't look like we'll have the chance to vote her out, the way it's going they may have to take her away in a straight jacket.

Voting Rudd out will still be some closer for us all.


----------



## MrBurns

Ummmm


----------



## noco

What a tangled web the spider is weaving for the fly (Rudd).

After reading the link below, the Governor General should disolve parliament and call an immediate election of both houses which will put and end to brawling that is going on in the Labor Party.

While all this is going on the Nation is suffering, so in the best interest the Nation and the voters the GG should show some courage and do what she should have done weeks ago. 




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...governor-general/story-e6frg74x-1226667814873


----------



## Calliope

Tony Windsor at last gets it right.



> IF members of Julia Gillard's inner circle think caucus numbers have shifted and her leadership is in desperate trouble, they conceal it well.
> 
> "Same old movie," one of them said yesterday. "Same ending."
> 
> Gillard will prevail, in other words, and Kevin Rudd will once again be sent packing.
> 
> It is a view shared by independent *Tony Windsor, who has told friends he believes Rudd is "all piss and wind".*




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...-signify-nothing/story-fni0fha6-1226667790823


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> Tony Windsor at last gets it right.
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...-signify-nothing/story-fni0fha6-1226667790823



Team Gillard is trying to draw him out.


----------



## Julia

noco said:


> After reading the link below, the Governor General should disolve parliament and call an immediate election of both houses which will put and end to brawling that is going on in the Labor Party.



As I understand the GG's position, she has no authority to just take the initiative like this.  

If you read Paul Kelly's article, you'll see the options he describes as being available.


----------



## Julia

Even "The Age" has joined the chorus of demands for Ms Gillard to step down, essentially on the basis that the entire focus is on Labor's leadership debacle, rather than Tony Abbott's policies.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/ed...illard-should-stand-aside-20130621-2oo6e.html

I'm almost starting to feel sorry for her.


----------



## McLovin

Julia said:


> As I understand the GG's position, she has no authority to just take the initiative like this.




Absolutely she can't. She has the power to do it of course but it would cause a constitutional crisis and it's unlikely HM would approve of it anyway. As long as the government has the confidence of the lower house, and can pass supply, she cannot do anything.


----------



## drsmith

One of the side battles, Bill Shorten vs Peter van Onselen.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ian_outing_bill_shorten_as_a_bald_faced_liar/


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> One of the side battles, Bill Shorten vs Peter van Onselen.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ian_outing_bill_shorten_as_a_bald_faced_liar/




It never ends the whole party is riddled with unworthy people.


----------



## drsmith

Team Gillard vs Fairfax,

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/die-for-gillards-leadership-was-cast-months-ago-20130622-2op1p.html


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> Team Gillard vs Fairfax,
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/die-for-gillards-leadership-was-cast-months-ago-20130622-2op1p.html




Fairfax don't have clean hands. Rudd's damaging leaks have always gone to the SMH, and they will continue if she out-outmaneuvers him this time. Rudd is just a weak, sniveling, gutless, two-timing, opportunistic, hypocritical rat.


----------



## noco

McLovin said:


> Absolutely she can't. She has the power to do it of course but it would cause a constitutional crisis and it's unlikely HM would approve of it anyway. As long as the government has the confidence of the lower house, and can pass supply, she cannot do anything.






Her are some interesting facts on the powers of the Govenor General of Australia.

She can dissolve parliament if she wants to but she would have to break convention just as Sir John Kerr did in the Whitlam reign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor-General_of_Australia#Role_in_parliament


----------



## sptrawler

Calliope said:


> Rudd is just a weak, sniveling, gutless, two-timing, opportunistic, hypocritical rat.




That's a bit rough, apparently he is the peoples choice.

IFocus, will slap you, Kev got Labor into power in the first place.

Gillard had to kowtow to the three stoogies and enact most of the Greens policies, to get a guernsey.


----------



## bellenuit

Julia said:


> Even "The Age" has joined the chorus of demands for Ms Gillard to step down, essentially on the basis that the entire focus is on Labor's leadership debacle, rather than Tony Abbott's policies.
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/ed...illard-should-stand-aside-20130621-2oo6e.html
> 
> I'm almost starting to feel sorry for her.




I like this comment that followed the article in The Age.

_The Age led Labor here to the brink of annihilation and now it turns on Gillard for following its call?? 
- It was the Age who berated Howard's asylum seeker policies as inhumane, leading to the current failed policies and over 1,000 deaths
- It was the Age who fanned climate alarmism and called for the Carbon Tax
- It was the Age who celebrated the misogyny speech and egged on Gillard to fight a credibility-destroying gender war
- It was the Age who excused endless deficits and mountainous debt that will burden us for a generation
By all means the Age can choose a side on key issues (if it does so transparently rather than pretending to be objective), but I'm amazed that the Age would then turn on the politician that headed the Age's call. Labor faces total annihilation entirely because it has adopted policies championed by the Age._


----------



## Sean K

We all need to pause and just have an election. 

The government is not governing right now, and hasn't for some time. 

Calling an election so early was just plain stupid and wasteful to the economy.


----------



## sptrawler

kennas said:


> We all need to pause and just have an election.
> 
> The government is not governing right now, and hasn't for some time.
> 
> Calling an election so early was just plain stupid and wasteful to the economy.




Just another stupid call, to add to the list kennas.

The Labor strategists have really miss read the Australian psyche, it is a massive disaster.

However, they have no one else to blame but themselves.

Mistake 1, getting into bed with losers.

Mistake 2, adopting their policies.

Mistake 3, not realising the problem earlier.


----------



## Sean K

sptrawler said:


> Just another stupid call, to add to the list kennas.
> 
> The Labor strategists have really miss read the Australian psyche, it is a massive disaster.
> 
> However, they have no one else to blame but themselves.
> 
> Mistake 1, getting into bed with losers.
> 
> Mistake 2, adopting their policies.
> 
> Mistake 3, not realising the problem earlier.



They just seem totally blind to reality. 

It's really concerning.


----------



## sptrawler

kennas said:


> They just seem totally blind to reality.
> 
> It's really concerning.




Absolutely, the Labor Party has lost touch with mainstream Australia.IMO

They took on a defacto relationship with the Greens and Independents, to form government.
In doing so the Greens enacted all their policies. To the detriment of mining and manufacturing workers.

They now wonder why they are in trouble.lol
Then start trash talking everyone else.lol
Don't worry too much though, they all do ok with their pensions.


----------



## Julia

This whole farcical situation with Labor is an embarrassment to Australia.
Impossible to see that any change to Rudd will redeem them imo.

If they do bring Rudd back, I just can't wait to see the Coalition's advertising.  They don't have to do a thing.
  It's all there for them, on the record.   What a pathetic situation.


----------



## bellenuit

Nothing new, but good to see at least one of the MSM report on it.......

*Much more to come on AWU scandal*

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/much-more-to-come-on-awu-scandal/story-fncynjr2-1226667877684


----------



## Sean K

Julia said:


> This whole farcical situation with Labor is an embarrassment to Australia.
> Impossible to see that any change to Rudd will redeem them imo.
> 
> If they do bring Rudd back, I just can't wait to see the Coalition's advertising.  They don't have to do a thing.
> It's all there for them, on the record.   What a pathetic situation.



yep, good Labour people will be tossing in their graves. This entire episode has put the Labour movement back years. Maybe it's just representative of their philosophy?


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> This whole farcical situation with Labor is an embarrassment to Australia.
> Impossible to see that any change to Rudd will redeem them imo.
> 
> If they do bring Rudd back, I just can't wait to see the Coalition's advertising.  They don't have to do a thing.
> It's all there for them, on the record.   What a pathetic situation.




it cetainly is sad, they are thrashing around in a quagmire of poor policy, poor economic outcomes and poor answers to pressing problems.
It is pear shaped and turning to puree.

Next time I bet they will go to an election rather than form a minority government.
Then again, there has been a 40% payrise.


----------



## noco

This foul mouth Combet wants to have two bob each way to strenghten his own leardership ambitions.

It's dog eats dog in this disunified Labor Party. 

Who in their right mind would want to be a Labor politician?


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...ombet_accused_of_climate_change_over_gillard/


----------



## noco

More speculation on the Labor Party leadership by various journalists.

So long as this continues the more votes will go Abbotts way.

I really believe Labor wants to lose this election and they sure are going the right way about it.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/divided_they_fall/


----------



## bigdog

*Kangaroo Court of Australia reported today:*


http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...tu-secretary-dave-oliver-to-keep-his-support/

*Prime Minister Julia Gillard bribed ACTU Secretary Dave Oliver to keep his support*

Julia Gillard has used a judicial appointment to bribe Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU) Secretary Dave Oliver and shore up her internal Labor Party support as Prime Minister. Mr Oliver’s wife Suzanne Jones was last month appointed as a judge of the Federal Circuit Court even though she does not have the experience. This happened only 19 months after Mrs Jones was appointed a Commissioner at the Fair Work Commission.

Suzanne Jones appointment would normally be considered a job for “the boys and girls” which all political parties do on a regular basis. The difference here is that there is an immediate and blatant benefit for Julia Gillard which then makes it what it is, a clear bribe by Julia Gillard to Dave Oliver to keep her reign as Prime Minister and beat off any challengers such as Kevin Rudd. This was driven home last week when I read in the SMH “Gillard’s union power base remains her best chance of seeing off another challenge if it comes” ”and Dave Oliver of the ACTU have showed no signs of withdrawing their  support.” (Click here to read more)

Background – The evidence

There is some key supporting evidence that the bribe took place which came out during a Federal Senate Estimates hearing at the end of last month on the 29th and 30th May which we will get to soon. Firstly though, it is important to understand how the appointment process is meant to work and to know some of the players involved.

The position of Judge for the Federal Circuit Court (formerly the Federal Magistrates Court until April this year) is advertised and applications taken. Then some of the applicants are interviewed. They are interviewed by a panel of three people. In this case Chief Judge John Pascoe, Susan Morgan who is a retired Family Court judge and Ms Louise Glanville, First Assistant Secretary, Attorney-General’s Department.

A short list is then sent to the Attorney-General who then takes it to cabinet for a decision and/or approval of who the appointments will be.

Suzanne Jones appointment was reported last month when it was announced by the Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus QC on the 16th May 2013 and a couple of journalists questioned the appointment for obvious reasons. But it did not go much further than that.

Suzanne Jones appointment as judge of the Federal Circuit Court

Suzanne Jones has no experience in Family Law which will make up 80 to 85% of the cases she is meant to hear and hand down judgements in. There were over 100 applicants and you would have to assume that some would have had 10, 20 or 30 years Family Law experience but were deemed not good enough, yet Mrs Jones with no Family Law experience was a the top choice. She has had a dream run in judicial appointments. Two in the space of less than 2 years which is unheard of. Her resume briefly:

“From 1977 to 1979, Ms Jones was the associate to Deputy President Isaac of the Australian Conciliation and Arbitration Commission. In 1984, Ms Jones commenced work at the Australian Council of Trade Unions, become a Senior Industrial Officer in 1989 and a National Advocate in 1999.”

“In 2001, Ms Jones was admitted to practice in the Supreme Court of Victoria” (Click here to read more)

“Your Honour came to the law a mere 13 years ago following a distinguished career in industrial relations”

“After finishing your law degree in, Your Honour served articles at Maurice Blackburn. Almost immediately after admission, you went to the Bar.” (Click here to read more)

Mrs Jones was appointed as a Commissioner of Fair Work Australia in September 2011 and was appointed a Judge of the Federal Circuit Court in May 2013.

*Transcript from the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee – Estimates – May 29th and 30th 2013. (Click here for the full transcript for May 29th) and (Click here for the full transcript for May 30th)*

http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...tu-secretary-dave-oliver-to-keep-his-support/

http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com...tu-secretary-dave-oliver-to-keep-his-support/


----------



## DB008

bigdog said:


> PM's office breaches FoI rules for spin doctor John McTernan
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inv...r-1226667858681




Link to above article
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/investigations/pms-office-breaches-foi-rules-for-spin-doctor-john-mcternan/story-fn6tcxar-1226667858681


----------



## drsmith

Kevin Rudd brings his family to the front line,



> The night Julia Knifed my dad




The above is a newspaper headline according to the ABC's Insiders, although I can't find a link.

There's also another relating to Kevin Rudd being the 6-million dollar man. This is related to optimistic assumptions about much extra $ Kevin Rudd can bring to Labor through extra votes.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> Kevin Rudd brings his family to the front line,
> 
> The above is a newspaper headline according to the ABC's Insiders, although I can't find a link.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...shes-daddys-girl/story-e6frg6n6-1226668108331

I think it is also in Sunday Telegraph.

Jessica said "Dad and I talked about same-sex marriage a lot because it was something that really mattered to me". WHY?


----------



## drsmith

Former NSW Labor Treasurer of New South Wales, Michael Costa is tipping (well, hoping) Bill Shorten will be leading Labor by the end of the week (The Bolt Report).


----------



## Julia

Calliope said:


> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...shes-daddys-girl/story-e6frg6n6-1226668108331
> 
> I think it is also in Sunday Telegraph.



Also in the Sunday Mail, a double page spread with our Kev happily tossing Jessica's baby around and Jessica beaming with delight.  
All so trite and so obvious.



> Jessica said "Dad and I talked about same-sex marriage a lot because it was something that really mattered to me". WHY?



Well, because she, like her father, cares deeply about every person in Australia, especially the ones who vote.



drsmith said:


> Former NSW Labor Treasurer of New South Wales, Michael Costa is tipping (well, hoping) Bill Shorten will be leading Labor by the end of the week (The Bolt Report).



That's a bit out of left field, isn't it?  Do you think it's possible?  I wouldn't have thought so.


----------



## moXJO

Its like an election in an election. Who will win the chance to lose the election Rudd, Shorten or Gillard. Labor needs a thorough clean out of this lot.
I just hope they can keep up this stupidity until September. Given their track record it should be easy to achieve.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> That's a bit out of left field, isn't it?  Do you think it's possible?  I wouldn't have thought so.



His only chance would be if she stands aside for someone other than Kevin Rudd, in my view.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> His only chance would be if she stands aside for someone other than Kevin Rudd, in my view.




She looks like a sniffer dog. I'll bet she can smell out a turncoat. Or has she got him by the agates?


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> Also in the Sunday Mail, a double page spread with our Kev happily tossing Jessica's baby around and Jessica beaming with delight.
> All so trite and so obvious.




Also in the Sunday Mail from Ex Digger of Bulimba.



> this is enough to make anyone vomit.. what a sadly deluded young lady...lol.. your father , dear, has ruined many peoples lives.. you know nothing of the REAL world, and the REAL people in it. go shove that silver spoon back your mouth. had everything on a silver platter havent we.. .all we need is another KRUDD in politics.. o great news.


----------



## Miss Hale

Was really annoyed when I heard the latest ad on the radio  from the government regarding unfair treatment of women in the workplace.  Yet another oh so obvious attempt at gaining the women's vote. The example they used was so over the top it was laughable (someone telling a woman she shouldn't be at work because she was pregnant, I can't see this being a serious issue in 2013 ). Pity the Gillard government is not doing something about increasing workplaces full stop


----------



## sails

Miss Hale said:


> Was really annoyed when I heard the latest ad on the radio  from the government regarding unfair treatment of women in the workplace.  Yet another oh so obvious attempt at gaining the women's vote. The example they used was so over the top it was laughable (someone telling a woman she shouldn't be at work because she was pregnant, I can't see this being a serious issue in 2013 ). Pity the Gillard government is not doing something about increasing workplaces full stop




Yes, Miss Hale, it is annoying.  The saga continues and it seems to be all about Gillard in self-preservation mode when she is paid to be running the country.

If she put this much energy into actually governing for ALL Australians she might find she had more votes.

Unfortunately for her, these stunts are translating into more votes lost for brand of alp.


----------



## sptrawler

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, the Labor Party has lost touch with mainstream Australia.IMO
> 
> They took on a defacto relationship with the Greens and Independents, to form government.
> In doing so the Greens enacted all their policies. To the detriment of mining and manufacturing workers.
> 
> They now wonder why they are in trouble.lol
> Then start trash talking everyone else.lol
> Don't worry too much though, they all do ok with their pensions.




Poor old Kev can't be too happy, the 40% payrise came after Julia knifed him.

Apparently she gets $177,000 pension indexed for life, he won't get that and he was voted in.lol


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> Was really annoyed when I heard the latest ad on the radio  from the government regarding unfair treatment of women in the workplace.  Yet another oh so obvious attempt at gaining the women's vote. The example they used was so over the top it was laughable (someone telling a woman she shouldn't be at work because she was pregnant, I can't see this being a serious issue in 2013 ). Pity the Gillard government is not doing something about increasing workplaces full stop



This seems to go to her political obtuseness.  I couldn't believe it when I heard the advertisement.
Did she learn nothing from the critical backlash following her abortion/blue ties/sexism blunder?
Apparently not.

What she seems to be doing is every single day increasing her chances of complete oblivion, taking her Party with her.

What must people like Keating be thinking about the once proud Labor Party?


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> What must people like Keating be thinking about the once proud Labor Party?




I would love to hear Keatings thoughts.lol

He would have the perfect one liner for this goon show.


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> This seems to go to her political obtuseness.  I couldn't believe it when I heard the advertisement.
> Did she learn nothing from the critical backlash following her abortion/blue ties/sexism blunder?
> Apparently not.
> 
> What she seems to be doing is every single day increasing her chances of complete oblivion, taking her Party with her.
> 
> What must people like Keating be thinking about the once proud Labor Party?




As I have said before, I believe the Labor Party have got themselves in such a mess, they just do not know how to solve it so they will take the easy way out. Lose the election and let the coaltition sort out the mess.


----------



## Julia

From "The Hamster Wheel" with Julian Morrow, this 'obituary' for Julia Gillard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp1_llDdmfM

Accurate and very funny, but is it a bit out of order to be putting up an obituary for her?


----------



## sptrawler

Julia said:


> From "The Hamster Wheel" with Julian Morrow, this 'obituary' for Julia Gillard.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp1_llDdmfM
> 
> Accurate and very funny, but is it a bit out of order to be putting up an obituary for her?




Pretty well sums it up, sad as it may be.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> From "The Hamster Wheel" with Julian Morrow, this 'obituary' for Julia Gillard.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp1_llDdmfM
> 
> Accurate and very funny, but is it a bit out of order to be putting up an obituary for her?




Political obituary - not literal!


----------



## sails

Latest Newspoll according to Crikey:



> The Australian’s Troy Bramston tweets that Newspoll has the Coalition leading 57-43, down from 58-42 last time. However, the poll has Labor’s primary vote below 30% for the first time this year, down one to 29%, with the Coalition down four points to 45% and the Greens steady on 9%. Tony Abbott’s lead as preferred prime minister has reached a new peak of 45-33, up from 43-35 at the last poll three weeks ago. More to follow




Read more:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2013/06/23/newspoll-57-43-to-coalition-5/


----------



## bellenuit

*ALP MPs kept in dark on disastrous Labor poll which predicts election wipeout*

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...election-wipeout/story-fni0cx12-1226668469923


----------



## noco

Gillard and her troops seem to be playing American football.

Thet are running in all different directions.

Some are running around like chooks with tteir heads chopped off.

Panic will set in this week for sure.



http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/17718896/poor-polls-turn-up-heat-on-labor-mps/


----------



## sails

According to Paul Sheehan below, labor are manically pushing legislation through the senate this week and intends to gag debate on 53 bills...



> The Gillard versus Rudd versus Bill Shorten drama is a sideshow. It is not even the main game. The government is gone. The game that will have a big and immediate impact on the next government and the economy is the Senate election, and whether the Greens hold the balance of power.
> 
> An enormous amount of policy and process is there to be dissected. The government is so manically pushing legislation through the Senate that it has extended the final sitting day to Friday and given notice it intends to gag debate on 53 bills this week. This even includes the legislation that is the basis of the federal referendum, the Constitution Alteration (Local Government) Bill 2013.
> 
> This is preposterous. It is the latest dysfunction and dishonesty from the Gillard government, an insult to the electorate and to the democratic process. If the government is unwilling to debate the referendum measure in Parliament, and has allocated 10 times as much funding to support the referendum case as to put an opposing case, the referendum is clearly a Trojan Horse for extending federal power to local government and needs to be defeated. None of this would be possible without the Greens.




Read more:
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/gillard-held-firm-in-union-grasp-20130623-2oqkd.html#ixzz2X5HqjFR6


----------



## sails

sails said:


> Latest Newspoll according to Crikey:
> 
> 
> 
> Read more:
> http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2013/06/23/newspoll-57-43-to-coalition-5/




Looks like Crikey got the coalition's primary vote wrong. They only dropped 1 percentage point to 48% (crikey link  said 45%)






More here: 
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...oll_confirms_labor_deader_than_ever_43_to_57/


----------



## Calliope

> THE prime minister’s office has produced an “analysis” of opinion polls “showing” Kevin Rudd is responsible for the Gillard government’s opinion poll woes.




Strange??? She's not blaming Abbott. 

*Oh! What a feeling!*...the obnoxious Gillard and the odious Rudd are tearing their party to bits.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Strange??? She's not blaming Abbott.
> 
> *Oh! What a feeling!*...the obnoxious Gillard and the odious Rudd are tearing their party to bits.




Wouldn't you think they'd have something better to do. like running the country.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Seems the economic downturn is all the anti-Labor media and economist's fault. How dare they!!



> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has criticised some economists and the media for being too negative, saying there is a risk the country will talk itself into a downturn.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-24/gillard-criticises-economic-commentary/4776152


----------



## Aussiejeff

MrBurns said:


> Wouldn't you think they'd have something better to do. like running the country.




I think the whole Labor Party should run to Brazil.

Is it safe??...


----------



## bellenuit

This tweet I read is spot on......

_Julia Gillard lives by the reverse of the old nautical motto... the ship must go down with its captain._


----------



## drsmith

bellenuit said:


> This tweet I read is spot on......
> 
> _Julia Gillard lives by the reverse of the old nautical motto... the ship must go down with its captain._



Not only the ship, but the nation whose flag it flies.


----------



## drsmith

Latest Essential Media poll has the Coalition at 55% 2PP.

http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport

I'm not sure what's she's dreaming of in the image below other than it's not pleasant.


----------



## sails

drsmith said:


> Latest Essential Media poll has the Coalition at 55% 2PP.
> 
> http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport
> 
> I'm not sure what's she's dreaming of in the image below other than it's not pleasant.





That photo seems to make it pretty clear that Gillard has become way to emotional in her job. It is almost childish. And yet she likes to compare herself to Margaret Thatcher...


----------



## bellenuit

*Greg Combet reportedly tried to strike Gillard-dumping deal with Kevin Rudd in exchange for treasurer job*

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...or-treasurer-job/story-fni0cx12-1226669009221


----------



## bunyip

Gillard’s latest feeble attempt to garner support....one of the papers is running a front page photo of her sitting in an armchair, wearing a very conservative dress, a dog lounging at her feet as she knits a garment for the coming royal baby. And another one of her cradling several balls of wool in her arms, much the same as a woman would cradle a baby.
The headlines appropriately say ‘NEEDLES AND SPIN’.

Poor old Gillard apparently thinks she’ll increase her support by portraying herself as a down to earth homebody who’s doing something nice for a popular royal couple. Yet another error of judgment from her and those who advise her.


----------



## MrBurns

bunyip said:


> Gillard’s latest feeble attempt to garner support....one of the papers is running a front page photo of her sitting in an armchair, wearing a very conservative dress, a dog lounging at her feet as she knits a garment for the coming royal baby. And another one of her cradling several balls of wool in her arms, much the same as a woman would cradle a baby.
> The headlines appropriately say ‘NEEDLES AND SPIN’.
> 
> Poor old Gillard apparently thinks she’ll increase her support by portraying herself as a down to earth homebody who’s doing something nice for a popular royal couple. Yet another error of judgment from her and those who advise her.




Yes it's pathetic, she should quit before it gets any worse......and it will if she doesn't .


----------



## springhill

bunyip said:


> Gillard’s latest feeble attempt to garner support....one of the papers is running a front page photo of her sitting in an armchair, wearing a very conservative dress, a dog lounging at her feet as she knits a garment for the coming royal baby. And another one of her cradling several balls of wool in her arms, much the same as a woman would cradle a baby.
> The headlines appropriately say ‘NEEDLES AND SPIN’.
> 
> Poor old Gillard apparently thinks she’ll increase her support by portraying herself as a down to earth homebody who’s doing something nice for a popular royal couple. Yet another error of judgment from her and those who advise her.




Obviously the numerous equally transparent and nauseating references to "Game of Thrones" wasn't working......


----------



## Tink

Isnt that what she complained about with Abbotts wife?
The femanzi wont be happy.
Yep spin, the public arent stupid.

We are being broadcast all over the world with this internal fighting in labor.
They must be all misogynist in her eyes for wanting her out,.


----------



## sptrawler

McTernan must be out of spin, it would appear Labor have brought in reinforcments.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...how-he-empties-his-vowels-20130624-2osvp.html

Reading his statement on Kevin Rudd, it should be funny listening to the fresh spin from England.
He said Kev should "piss, or get off the pot".

Younger Aussies will be wondering what going to the toilet has to do with giving up mull.

This election result will hit World headlines, it will be bigger than the mysogyny speach.


----------



## Calliope

Gillard will do this clown off a break. At the end of this week he will be yesterday's man. Compared to Gillard he is spineless. He wants to destroy Gillard, but she wants to destroy Australia. This week's scorched earth policy, with all the nasty bills going through, will put a brake on any recovery under Abbott. The cupboard will be bare.


----------



## McLovin

Awkward.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> Awkward.
> 
> View attachment 52972




Fair dinkum what must people think

Absolutely oblivious to public opinion.


----------



## Tink

The dog tells the truth -- whats this all about?

Agree Calliope, its a concern.


----------



## Calliope

Tink said:


> The dog tells the truth -- whats this all about?
> 
> Agree Calliope, its a concern.




McTernan is on the ball, he has presented the fair Julia as Madame Defarge waiting for Rudd's head to roll.


----------



## Logique

Joan d'Arc, strident gender warrior, spins on a dime and becomes ..Martha Stewart? I'm finding it hard to keep up. 

Is there a tiny bundle of joy on the way at the Lodge? That 6 months of paid parental leave will be a tidy sum on her salary.

Meanwhile the Greens, that vaunted party of consultation and free speech - are furiously guillotining Bills through the parliament.  As rapidly as their influence and relevance wanes, except in the schools and campuses, where they reign.


----------



## bellenuit

MrBurns said:


> Fair dinkum what must people think
> 
> Absolutely oblivious to public opinion.




I agree and it will be seen through by most people. But if ever an occasion when The Coalition should leave well enough alone and not comment, this is it. I see Pyne just couldn't keep his mouth shut.


----------



## Aussiejeff

MrBurns said:


> Fair dinkum what must people think
> 
> Absolutely oblivious to public opinion.




I could be proved wrong, but the dog looks like it has shat itself.....


----------



## Julia

Every time I think she has hit the bottom of the spin barrel, she manages to come up with something worse again!

Someone must have figured out that the sexism stuff wasn't working, and recommended the warm homemaker image.
All the balls of wool and the knitting just look ridiculous.  She doesn't even hold the knitting needles as a genuine knitter would!

If she were to salvage even a trace of dignity she would call an immediate election.  That would solve the Rudd problem and avoid causing any more embarrassment to herself and the nation.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Every time I think she has hit the bottom of the spin barrel, she manages to come up with something worse again!
> 
> Someone must have figured out that the sexism stuff wasn't working, and recommended the warm homemaker image.
> All the balls of wool and the knitting just look ridiculous.  She doesn't even hold the knitting needles as a genuine knitter would!
> 
> If she were to salvage even a trace of dignity she would call an immediate election.  That would solve the Rudd problem and avoid causing any more embarrassment to herself and the nation.





I don't think forcing the dog into the picture was a good idea either - he doesn't look like he wants to be there!

I understand this photo shoot took 5 hours - meanwhile our borders remain unsecured and debt keeps rising.  Shameful, really.

Paul Murray explains that the Women's weekly didn't want to do this but Gillard and her "457 spin doctor" insisted and they have put a note to that effect in the top right hand corner of the Telegraph where her picture is full front page:





More here on it all:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...s_prime_minister_gillard_knit_him_a_kangaroo/


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Every time I think she has hit the bottom of the spin barrel, she manages to come up with something worse again!
> 
> Someone must have figured out that the sexism stuff wasn't working, and recommended the warm homemaker image.
> All the balls of wool and the knitting just look ridiculous.  She doesn't even hold the knitting needles as a genuine knitter would!




Christopher Pyne summed up the situation nicely by saying_ ‘We know the Prime Minister is pretty good at spinning  a yarn, and now we have visual proof of it!’_


----------



## noco

The knitting Gillard is performing looks more like 'PETA HEATER' for Tim.


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> The knitting Gillard is performing looks more like 'PETA HEATER' for Tim.




To big....

The dogs name is Tim.

Seriously, she has no judgement whatsoever did she think women would like that. dutifully knitting like in days of old ?

That kangaroo (not jacket) will hit the bin the minute it arrives at the Palace.


----------



## sptrawler

MrBurns said:


> To big....
> 
> The dogs name is Tim.
> 
> Seriously, she has no judgement whatsoever did she think women would like that. dutifully knitting like in days of old ?
> 
> That kangaroo (not jacket) will hit the bin the minute it arrives at the Palace.




I'm sure I heard, there was a spike in cancelled subscriptions at Australian Womens Weekly, when Julia hit the news stands.lol 

She is obviously very unpopular.


----------



## Country Lad

sails said:


> .............. but Gillard and her "457 spin doctor" insisted




Probably is supposed to look like Julia at home happily knitting, especially because of the dog. Maybe this photo should have been included for "full disclosure". 

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Calliope

Country Lad said:


> Probably is supposed to look like Julia at home happily knitting, especially because of the dog. Maybe this photo should have been included for "full disclosure".
> 
> Cheers
> Country Lad
> 
> 
> View attachment 52991






> During the actual photographic session, Ms Gillard seemed to have second thoughts. As she took her place in the armchair and took up the knitting needles, the Prime Minister told staffers: "This feels slightly absurd."




Slightly???


----------



## Macquack

sptrawler said:


> *I'm sure I heard*, there was a spike in cancelled subscriptions at Australian Womens Weekly, when Julia hit the news stands.lol
> 
> She is obviously very unpopular.




You would know sptrawler, coming from the blue rinse set who read Women's Weekly.

Julia Gillard is not even allowed to have ANY expression on her face.

Bring on the election, so I can start laying the boot into Tony Abbott.


----------



## noco

Calliope said:


> Slightly???




I would say absolutely absurd!!!!!!!!!!

She has just put another nail in her coffin.

- - - Updated - - -



Macquack said:


> You would know sptrawler, coming from the blue rinse set who read Women's Weekly.
> 
> Julia Gillard is not even allowed to have ANY expression on her face.
> 
> Bring on the election, so I can start laying the boot into Tony Abbott.




Please explain why you would have reason to lay the boot into Tony Abbott. Sounds like are being very spiteful and vindictive.


----------



## JTLP

noco said:


> I would say absolutely absurd!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> She has just put another nail in her coffin.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain why you would have reason to lay the boot into Tony Abbott. Sounds like are being very spiteful and vindictive.




Was thinking the same thing?

Why would you feel the need to sink the boot into somebody who has yet to prove themselves either way? I'm sure if he gets up there and lies to the nation and is reckless in what he does; failing to even make a 1/4 of his promises - you won't be the only one 'sinking the boot' McQuack.

In all honestly for all his media shortcomings; I get a sense of genuine love for his country and wanting to do something for the people (as feeble as that comes across some times...)


----------



## wayneL

noco said:


> Please explain why you would have reason to lay the boot into Tony Abbott. Sounds like are being very spiteful and vindictive.



... and just a tad delusional?


----------



## Aussiejeff

Macquack said:


> You would know sptrawler, coming from the blue rinse set who read Women's Weekly.
> 
> Julia Gillard is not even allowed to have ANY expression on her face.
> 
> Bring on the election, so I can start laying the boot into Tony Abbott.




Are you related to Anne Summers in any way?


----------



## Aussiejeff

Oakeshatt to quit politics...  He'll never admit it - what pollie ever admits a mistake - but inwardly he must be feeling he made a terrible judgement call a few years back?

Et tu Whinedsor?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-26/rob-oakeshott-to-quit-politics/4780492


----------



## dutchie

Aussiejeff said:


> Oakeshatt to quit politics...  He'll never admit it - what pollie ever admits a mistake - but inwardly he must be feeling he made a terrible judgement call a few years back?
> 
> Et tu Whinedsor?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-26/rob-oakeshott-to-quit-politics/4780492




What a predictable and pathetic gutless wonder he is.


----------



## sptrawler

Macquack said:


> You would know sptrawler, coming from the blue rinse set who read Women's Weekly.
> 
> Julia Gillard is not even allowed to have ANY expression on her face.
> 
> Bring on the election, so I can start laying the boot into Tony Abbott.




Bit touchy McCluck? lol

Do you have a pallet of 'Vote for Julia' tee shirts, youve got to get rid of?:1zhelp:

- - - Updated - - -



Aussiejeff said:


> Oakeshatt to quit politics...  He'll never admit it - what pollie ever admits a mistake - but inwardly he must be feeling he made a terrible judgement call a few years back?
> 
> Et tu Whinedsor?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-26/rob-oakeshott-to-quit-politics/4780492




Internal polling must be returning devastating figures.


----------



## MrBurns

sptrawler said:


> Bit touchy McCluck? lol
> 
> Do you have a pallet of 'Vote for Julia' tee shirts, youve got to get rid of?:1zhelp:




Poor old Macquack, bitter and twisted, the perfect Labor supporter, he'll be bitter and twisted alright on Sept 14th when the witch from the western suburbs is sent back to boganville where she belongs and I hope he enjoys many years of Tony Abbott rule , the wisdom the right decisions for the country and a steady hand at the helm

- - - Updated - - -



dutchie said:


> What a predictable and pathetic gutless wonder he is.




Thankfully we didn't get a 17 minute goodbye speech, his voice is almost as annoying as Gillard's.


----------



## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> Thankfully we didn't get a 17 minute goodbye speech, his voice is almost as annoying as Gillard's.




Two rats deserting the sinking ship, Windsor for "health reasons" and Oakeshott for "family reasons". The true reason is that this gutless pair are afraid to face the electorates they ratted on.

I hope they have the guts to apologise to the electorate for the train wreck they are leaving in their wake in their valedictory speeches.


----------



## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Two rats deserting the sinking ship, Windsor for "health reasons" and Oakeshott for "family reasons". The true reason is that this gutless pair are afraid to face the electorates they ratted on.
> 
> I hope they have the guts to apologise to the electorate for the train wreck they are leaving in their wake in their valedictory speeches.




I think they'll have to move from their electorates, people spitting on them every day wouldn't be pleasant.


----------



## McLovin

Aussiejeff said:


> Oakeshatt to quit politics...  He'll never admit it - what pollie ever admits a mistake - but inwardly he must be feeling he made a terrible judgement call a few years back?
> 
> Et tu Whinedsor?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-26/rob-oakeshott-to-quit-politics/4780492




Would the alternative, a Lib/Green parliament, have been much better??

If nothing else at least these guys had the conviction to stand behind their beliefs, however misguided they might have been.



			
				MrBurns said:
			
		

> I think they'll have to move from their electorates, people spitting on them every day wouldn't be pleasant.




Windsor was way ahead in the polls for New England.


----------



## Aussiejeff

MrBurns said:


> I think they'll have to move from their electorates, people spitting on them every day wouldn't be pleasant.




I'm sure the excessive Super payouts and pensions each will receive (adjusted for the recent pay rise of course) for having performed so marvelously in their unstinting  service of the Australian public will more than sooth their fevered brows.....


----------



## Knobby22

McLovin said:


> Windsor was way ahead in the polls for New England.




Windsor was wasted as an independent.


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> Two rats deserting the sinking ship, Windsor for "health reasons" and Oakeshott for "family reasons". The true reason is that this gutless pair are afraid to face the electorates they ratted on.
> I hope they have the guts to apologise to the electorate for the train wreck they are leaving in their wake in their valedictory speeches.



Tony Windsor, after years of state and federal politics, will cry all the way to the bank, having generated huge pork barrel dollars for his electorate. You can at least begin to make sense of his position.

But Rob Oakeschott, who can figure it. Now virtually unemployable, a career in politics flushed down the toilet. And for what - 15 minutes of fame and a 17 minute speech?

There is a middle of the night, OMG what did I do, moment in Rob's future.


----------



## noco

According the latest events in Canberra this morning, Tony Abbott could be Prime Minister by the weekend.

With the withdrawl of support for Kevin Rudd by Winsdor and Oakshot, Kevin Rudd may not be able to convince the Governor General he has the confidence of parliament.

I would say we will have an election early in August and the sooner the better.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/17750926/live-canberra-leadership-tensions/


----------



## McLovin

noco said:


> According the latest events in Canberra this morning, Tony Abbott could be Prime Minister by the weekend.
> 
> With the withdrawl of support for Kevin Rudd by Winsdor and Oakshot, Kevin Rudd may not be able to convince the Governor General he has the confidence of parliament.
> 
> I would say we will have an election early in August and the sooner the better.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/17750926/live-canberra-leadership-tensions/




Isn't the more likely outcome that there will be no challenge from Rudd?

And then this...


> BOB Katter now says he will back Kevin Rudd and protect his government from a no-confidence vote even though he hasn't spoken with the member for Griffith.




Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...ty/story-fnho52ip-1226669921693#ixzz2XHnhlzyE


----------



## drsmith

Tony Windsor has finally come to the realisation that all that's left to defend is the legacy of his decision to support Gillard Labor in forming government. He's clearly bitterly disappointed that in the dying days of this government, he's defending it mostly against forces within the party he supported to form government.

That's the bitter pill he's finding hard to swallow for the choice he made after the 2010 election. He could only trust Julia Gillard because of the power he and Rob Oakeshott together wielded within this government.

http://media.watoday.com.au/news/national-times/windsor-leaning-towards-abbott-4520610.html


----------



## sptrawler

So the fight for control of the Labor party continues. Will the Unions keep cotrol, or will Rudd and the moderates take over. What a tele movie.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ck-julia-gillard/story-fnii5s41-1226670092584


----------



## drsmith

As Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott run for the hills, the ABC also understands the Rudd forces are storming the beaches,



> The ABC understands that supporters of former prime minister Kevin Rudd have been circulating a petition to call a special Caucus meeting to hold a ballot on the Labor leadership.
> 
> It is believed the petition to remove Julia Gillard as leader has been gathering signatures since just before midday.
> 
> Under Caucus rules, a petition of one-third of Labor MPs is one way for a special meeting to be called and the leadership to be tested.
> 
> Follow our blog for updates as they happen.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-26/live-blog-labor-leadership/4782312


----------



## Calliope

It's on.



> KEVIN Rudd will challenge Julia Gillard for the Labor leadership tomorrow morning.
> 
> A petition for a ballot circulated among Labor MPs is believed to now have the required numbers for a spill of the PM.
> 
> The Daily Telegraph has confirmed that the special caucus meeting has been called for tomorrow morning. However, the timing is not yet known.
> 
> The Daily Telegraph can confirm that Mr Rudd will contest the ballot.
> 
> There is enough signatures,” said a key Rudd backer.
> 
> “We expect it tomorrow.”
> 
> The PM’s office claimed it was unaware of the petition for a ballot



.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> It's on.



Question time should be more interesting today.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Question time should be more interesting today.




Not really she's acting like she's still in charge, straight jacket required:screwy:


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Not really she's acting like she's still in charge, straight jacket required:screwy:



It's interesting she's chosen not to bring it on this time.

Her performance today is a last ditch pitch to those sitting behind her.


----------



## Julia

McLovin said:


> If nothing else at least these guys had the conviction to stand behind their beliefs, however misguided they might have been.



Aren't they elected to represent the wishes and views of their electorate?   Both electorates, as I understand it, were of a conservative focus, and dismayed when their representatives sided with Labor/Greens.

Listening to Tony Windsor's frequent intense rants of hatred toward Tony Abbott, I have the impression the main principle involved was a determination to deprive the Coalition of the leadership.



Calliope said:


> It's on.
> 
> .



Has Rudd actually confirmed he is standing?


----------



## Miss Hale

Did I hear Windsor blubbering when he was talking about leaving parliament and taking his 21 year old son on a trip to Africa?  Can we please go back to the days when everyone maintained a stiff upper lip? The tears don't make you look human they make you look like a dill  Everyone has to make sacrifices in their life and many parents don't see as much of their children as they would like, especially those working two jobs to pay the bills as opposed to MPs on their generous salaries and perks


----------



## db94

Can Abbott pass a vote of no confidence if they challenge and Rudd succeeds? surely itd pass too. Could be an election sooner then we think (thank god)


----------



## dutchie

drsmith said:


> Question time should be more interesting today.




Abbott and Pyne just cut them to pieces.


----------



## drsmith

dutchie said:


> Abbott and Pyne just cut them to pieces.




Most of the Labor side left the house for the Abbott/Pyne speeches. I don't know if that's normal or not for suspensions of standing orders.  House is dividing now.

As for Kevin Rudd himself, is this reflective of the state of the Rudd beachhead ?


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Miss Hale said:


> Did I hear Windsor blubbering when he was talking about leaving parliament and taking his 21 year old son on a trip to Africa?  Can we please go back to the days when everyone maintained a stiff upper lip? The tears don't make you look human they make you look like a dill  Everyone has to make sacrifices in their life and many parents don't see as much of their children as they would like, especially those working two jobs to pay the bills as opposed to MPs on their generous salaries and perks




Yeh I agree, sort of.  I think if the emotion is there then there's not much point suppressing it.  But I'd much prefer a leader who is a bit beyond all that.  

Mr Bouris for PM.


----------



## Julia

Miss Hale said:


> Did I hear Windsor blubbering when he was talking about leaving parliament and taking his 21 year old son on a trip to Africa?  Can we please go back to the days when everyone maintained a stiff upper lip? The tears don't make you look human they make you look like a dill  Everyone has to make sacrifices in their life and many parents don't see as much of their children as they would like, especially those working two jobs to pay the bills as opposed to MPs on their generous salaries and perks



+1.  I detest the weeping.
Suddenly there's all this emotion from Windsor and Oakeshott, some sort of epiphany that hey, I've just realised I don't see enough of my family.  Only took me 22 years to figure this out.   I guess it sounds better to their egocentric little hearts than "Hell, I'll probably lose so I'll avoid that ignominy."

The other factor, at least as far as Windsor is concerned, is that he seems to think the writing is on the wall for K. Rudd to take over, and he could not bring himself to support that, leaving him with the similarly unacceptable option of  supporting Tony Abbott.  The choice of retiring seems entirely preferable.


----------



## Knobby22

Julia said:


> +1.  I detest the weeping.
> The choice of retiring seems entirely preferable.




Yes, he can just stay out in the wings till the election. 
I wonder if he abstains in a no confidence motion whether that would cause the election date to be changed or whether it wouldn't make any difference.


----------



## dutchie

From Pickering..


----------



## drsmith

Andrew Wilkie and Tony Crook have been approached by Team Rudd on how they would respond to a no-confidence motion (ABC24).


----------



## chops_a_must

Julia said:


> Aren't they elected to represent the wishes and views of their electorate?   Both electorates, as I understand it, were of a conservative focus, and dismayed when their representatives sided with Labor/Greens.




Well, they got for their electorates more than what they would have with a coalition government.

The irony at the moment is that coalition policies are extremely detrimental to rural and regional areas.


----------



## db94

Ballot 7pm tonight!!


----------



## drsmith

db94 said:


> Ballot 7pm tonight!!




She's conceded the beaches and wants to cut them off at the pass before team Rudd gets too many of their forces across the sand.

Gillard's terms for the ballot is for the loser leave parliament, assuming there's a challenger.

It's interesting that while Team Gillard has tried to draw Kevin Rudd out, she's been drawn out herself.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> She's conceded the beaches and wants to cut them off at the pass before team Rudd gets too many of their forces across the sand.
> 
> Gillard's terms for the ballot is for the loser leave parliament, assuming there's a challenger.




She'll be glad to get out.
Then the Libs can start on the demolition of Rudd, like shooting fish in a barrel.


----------



## McLovin

MrBurns said:


> She'll be glad to get out.
> Then the Libs can start on the demolition of Rudd, like shooting fish in a barrel.




I wouldn't be so sure of that. Rudd ain't Gillard, he's still popular for some reason. He will certainly bring into relief how unpopular Abbott really is and with the election so close he could benefit from a honeymoon bounce as everyone breathes a sigh of relief.

I still think the election will be tighter than many think.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> She'll be glad to get out.



The only way she's going out is with her political corpse in a body bag.

Team Rudd must have got the 35 sigs for Julia Gillard to move.


----------



## db94

Libs have already started



- - - Updated - - -

I think Gillard is up to something.

She has caught him of guard, he was probably expecting it to be tomorrow. She could win
If she loses, a vote of no confidence will go through and she will vote in favour and others will, Rudd will go to the early election and get smashed making him look like a fool.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

ballot at 7pm tonight


----------



## drsmith

Will Sportsbet be right this time ?



> Applies to the leader of the Labor party on Thursday 27th June..
> 
> 19:30 Labor Leadership
> 
> Markets (1)
> 
> Kevin Rudd 1.40
> 
> Julia Gillard 2.80
> 
> Any Other 17.00




http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/australian-federal-politics


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> I wouldn't be so sure of that. Rudd ain't Gillard, he's still popular for some reason. He will certainly bring into relief how unpopular Abbott really is and with the election so close he could benefit from a honeymoon bounce as everyone breathes a sigh of relief.
> I still think the election will be tighter than many think.





It's too far from the election to benefit from a honeymoon period, the Libs have plenty of time to remind everyone what a useless tosser he is.

I don't usually drink on Wednesdays but this may be an exception.


----------



## drsmith

db94 said:


> I think Gillard is up to something.
> 
> She has caught him of guard, he was probably expecting it to be tomorrow. She could win
> If she loses, a vote of no confidence will go through and she will vote in favour and others will, Rudd will go to the early election and get smashed making him look like a fool.



Bob Katter will support Kevin Rudd. That means only one of either Tony Windsor or Rob Oakeshott needs to support Labor for the no-confidence to fail, assuming the others are unchanged.

Kevin Rudd is about to make an announcement (ABC24).


----------



## McLovin

MrBurns said:


> It's too far from the election to benefit from a honeymoon period, the Libs have plenty of time to remind everyone what a useless tosser he is.




It's a two way street Burnsie, Abbott doesn't exactly win popularity contests. I'm amazed that Abbott has lasted as long as he has. Given the deep unpopularity of Gillard, he should be light years ahead in the preferred PM polls.

It'll be an interesting couple of months.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> It's a two way street Burnsie, Abbott doesn't exactly win popularity contests. I'm amazed that Abbott has lasted as long as he has. Given the deep unpopularity of Gillard, he should be light years ahead in the preferred PM polls.
> 
> It'll be an interesting couple of months.




Certainty will be but Rudd has too much against him all the recorded criticism of him by his own party and so on...


----------



## drsmith

*It's on.*


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> *It's on.*




Warm the set and cool the tinnies 

I must say his voice is a welcome relief to Gillard's, she was a lousy communicator.


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> Warm the set and cool the tinnies
> 
> I must say his voice is a welcome relief to Gillard's, she was a lousy communicator.



That's what he'll hoping his Caucus colleagues will think. I hope it's not what the electorate thinks because now more than ever I believe the Gillard leadership is in it's final two hours.

Both have conceded the loser will step down from parliament, so surely this time it's the final fight to the political death for one of them.


----------



## Aussiejeff

drsmith said:


> That's what he'll hoping his Caucus colleagues will think. I hope it's not what the electorate thinks because now more than ever I believe the Gillard leadership is in it's final two hours.
> 
> Both have conceded the loser will step down from parliament, so surely* this time it's the final fight to the political death for one of them*.




_**Hiss%^&%^*....#$%scratch...%#$^&bite....**_

...and the whiner is??? 

Not the Orstraylian people. 

At least JuLiar can take up her new-found hobby of knitting baby roos if she loses.....


----------



## medicowallet

MrBurns said:


> I must say his voice is a welcome relief to Gillard's, she was a lousy communicator.




Oh I agree soooo much.

However I hope Gillard wins so she can face the public at the election.

BUT if it is a draw will both resign?   

Lindsay Tanner out of retirement?
Ferguson stands up?

MW


----------



## dutchie

A cameraman at the Rudd press conference noticed that Rudd had his fingers crossed behind his back when he agreed to leave politics if he lost.


----------



## noco

If Rudd wins the ballot tonight he may have a problem on his hands to convince the Governor General that he (Rudd) has the comfidence of parliament to form a government.

Windsor and Oakshot will not support Rudd and if Gillard reisgns he (Rudd) will also have three less to make up the numbers and who knows it may also encourage some of Gillard's supporters to follow her and resign, in which case Abbott could be Prime Minister by the weeks end.

A general election may take place in the first week of August.


----------



## chops_a_must

All Rudd needs to do is promise pokie reform to Wilkie.


----------



## Logique

medicowallet said:


> Oh I agree soooo much.
> However I hope Gillard wins so she can face the public at the election...



I agree Medico. How do these people get to slink away and avoid accountability.  Let's ask Slater & Gordon about that.

Everyone, remember this moment when Prime Minister Abbott proposes a double dissolution. As he should, if the "unrepresentative swill" (P.Keating about the Senate) stand in the way of progress for our country.


----------



## Miss Hale

McLovin said:


> I wouldn't be so sure of that. Rudd ain't Gillard, he's still popular for some reason. He will certainly bring into relief how unpopular Abbott really is and with the election so close he could benefit from a honeymoon bounce as everyone breathes a sigh of relief.
> 
> I still think the election will be tighter than many think.




Rudd is only popular compared to Gillard.  Once she's out of the way everyone will remember how terrible he was/is too.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> If Rudd wins the ballot tonight he may have a problem on his hands to convince the Governor General that he (Rudd) has the comfidence of parliament to form a government.
> 
> Windsor and Oakshot will not support Rudd and if Gillard reisgns he (Rudd) will also have three less to make up the numbers and who knows it may also encourage some of Gillard's supporters to follow her and resign, in which case Abbott could be Prime Minister by the weeks end.
> 
> A general election may take place in the first week of August.




If Rudd wins, it will be awkward for, Swan and Conroy.


----------



## dutchie

Reason for Rudd's challenge:

1. Many MP's pestered me to challenge - Kevin, you saying to yourself to challenge does not equal many MP's.
2. Many of the general public pestered me to challenge - Kevin, Therese telling you to challenge does not equal the general public.
3. A sh#thouse government lost its way - Kevin, there was no way, it was floundering even more than yours from day 1.
4. Someone with good policies and economic credentials needs to step in - Kevin, good point - who do you suggest?
5. The bogeyman Abbott will do bad things if he is not stopped - Kevin, yeah we need another 4 years of this crap!

Lets hope that it's a dead heat - they both lose - they both resign from politics - yipeee!
(Oh,  thats right Kevin had his fingers crossed)


----------



## MrBurns

noco said:


> A general election may take place in the first week of August.




That would be the best outcome for Labor the longer Rudd is there the more comprehensive will be his demolition by the Libs, get him in then straight to the ballot box is their best bet.............wait and see.


----------



## Calliope

sptrawler said:


> If Rudd wins, it will be awkward for, Swan and Conroy.




Rudd now has Shorten, the rat, on side. This means he has the GG too.


----------



## noco

Bill Shorten has deserted Julia Gillard and is now backing Kevin Rudd after saying for the past two weeks that he supported Gillard.

What a turn coat Shorten tuirned out to be.


----------



## Aussiejeff

noco said:


> Bill Shorten has deserted Julia Gillard and is now backing Kevin Rudd after saying for the past two weeks that he supported Gillard.
> 
> What a turn coat Shorten tuirned out to be.




Shortened the odds for Rudd to odds on...

Tarred with the same cowardly brush, you might say.....someone should tip a sack of white feathers over him while the tar's still hot and sticky...


----------



## Logique

Calliope said:


> Rudd now has Shorten, the rat, on side. This means he has the GG too.



Not Bill's finest moment. But if he is for Rudd, then perhaps after all, this is it for her.  

The Unions support you until they don't.


----------



## drsmith

With that spineless rat Bill Shorten jumping the sinking Gillard ship, her leadership is finished.

Sportsbet now has Rudd at $1.05 and Gillard at $8.00.

All that's left to wait for now is the Hitler parody.


----------



## Calliope

Logique said:


> Not Bill's finest moment. But if he is for Rudd, then perhaps after all, this is it for her.
> 
> The Unions support you until they don't.




Yes. It was Kevin and Therese who made Bryce GG.


----------



## sptrawler

noco said:


> Bill Shorten has deserted Julia Gillard and is now backing Kevin Rudd after saying for the past two weeks that he supported Gillard.
> 
> What a turn coat Shorten tuirned out to be.




He's just another bloody misogynist, woman hating, backstabber 

She should have called the election last October, another dumb call by team Gillard.

I don't think Labor will be rushing off to England for campaign managers, in future.


----------



## dutchie

Shorten turned rat and backstabbed Gillard for his own personal future advancement. Nothing to do with Rudd being the best person to lead them to defeat.


----------



## drsmith

57 to 45.

Rudd's won.


----------



## Aussiejeff

drsmith said:


> 57 to 45.
> 
> Rudd's won.




Won the Poisoned Chalice?


----------



## noco

drsmith said:


> 57 to 45.
> 
> Rudd's won.






The fun in the Labor Party now begins. It ain't over until the fat lady sings.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> The fun in the Labor Party now begins. It ain't over until the fat lady sings.



The concession speech should make for interesting viewing.

This is the only loss for her that would be bigger than losing to Tony Abbott.


----------



## Aussiejeff

noco said:


> The fun in the Labor Party now begins. It ain't over until the fat lady sings.




I didn't think Jools was all that fat?

Apparently, some feminista commentators (ABC seems to have lots of them tonight) seem shocked and bewildered that their Great Leader is no more. I expect to see hordes of placard waving, tear-streaked, blue tie slashing bra-burners marching on Parliament next week. 

Ah, the fun times are back!


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> The concession speech should make for interesting viewing.
> 
> This is the only loss for her that would be bigger than losing to Tony Abbott.




Kevin has promised to keep Tim and the dog Reuben on in the Lodge if they want to stay.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> Shorten turned rat and backstabbed Gillard for his own personal future advancement. Nothing to do with Rudd being the best person to lead them to defeat.




The unions still need an 'inside man', who cares if he's a turncoat, it's not about Bill.


----------



## wayneL

Calliope said:


> Kevin has promised to keep Tim and the dog Reuben on in the Lodge if they want to stay.




I wonder if Kevvie will bother moving in.


----------



## pixel

It didn't take long: *A New Dawn*


----------



## bellenuit

I think The Coalition have to be very careful about how they deal with Rudd. If there is too much gloating and reliance on the vitriol that came from the Rudd opponents after the last challenge, it could backfire. Rudd is in honeymoon mode and many believe that a wrong against him has been undone. Being too negative might alienate a lot of people who think he should be given a fair go.


----------



## sptrawler

wayneL said:


> I wonder if Kevvie will bother moving in.




Kevvie will probably hand over to Martin Ferguson.

Then ride away into the sunset.lol


----------



## wayneL

bellenuit said:


> I think The Coalition have to be very careful about how they deal with Rudd. If there is too much gloating and reliance on the vitriol that came from the Rudd opponents after the last challenge, it could backfire. Rudd is in honeymoon mode and many believe that a wrong against him has been undone. Being too negative might alienate a lot of people who think he should be given a fair go.




Such people are morons IMO.

Has Kevvie changed? I think not.


----------



## Miss Hale

Bit alarmed that there is a suggestion that Rudd would move the election further out   That would be political suicide surely!

Blimey, the ABC just love this sort of thing, they could talk about Labor party infighting 'til the cows come home!  Thank goodness the tennis has started - go Lleyton


----------



## bellenuit

wayneL said:


> Such people are morons IMO.




I agree, but unfortunately morons get to vote


----------



## Julia

McLovin said:


> I wouldn't be so sure of that. Rudd ain't Gillard, he's still popular for some reason. He will certainly bring into relief how unpopular Abbott really is and with the election so close he could benefit from a honeymoon bounce as everyone breathes a sigh of relief.
> 
> I still think the election will be tighter than many think.



I agree.  The electorate has a collective short memory.  Kevin knows all the right sounding stuff to say, and will be a far more effective opponent to Tony Abbott than Gillard has been.
Add to that the sympathy for the way Rudd was previously assassinated by his own, and perhaps what will be seen as his determined loyalty to the Party that knifed him, and he's on a winning ticket for the honeymoon period.

It's unclear how many voters see through his egocentric, delusional conviction that he is (as Nicola Roxon famously said) a messiah come to save Labor.

The sample Coalition advertisement aired on 7.30 this evening was apparently put together in haste.
If that's the case, I can't imagine how devastating will those advertisements be whose preparation has the benefit of more time.

The mechanics still need clarification.  Presumably all this will become clear tomorrow.







noco said:


> Bill Shorten has deserted Julia Gillard and is now backing Kevin Rudd after saying for the past two weeks that he supported Gillard.
> 
> What a turn coat Shorten tuirned out to be.


----------



## Julia

Does anyone have a link to Julia Gillard's speech this evening before she went to see the Governor-General?


----------



## dutchie

The Labor party have lost Wayne Swan, Stephen Conroy, Craig Emerson, Tony Windsor, Rob Oakshott, Julia Gillard and Joe Ludwig. They have gained Kevin Rudd the most dysfunctional Prime Minister ever.


----------



## sails

Julia said:


> Does anyone have a link to Julia Gillard's speech this evening before she went to see the Governor-General?





No, but I saw some of it.  She was "proud" of all her "achievements and listed them all - much like Anna Bligh did on her concession speech.  If Gillard had actually done as well as she thinks she did, I don't believe she would have been ousted tonight. 

I didn't watch the whole thing.  Can only take so much of the voice...


----------



## Julia

Thanks, sails.  So at least she didn't weep amongst it all which is a plus.

I wonder how the history books will record today's events.  I expect the ultra feminist movement will spin it as nothing to do with fault on the part of Julia Gillard, and rather paint her as the victim of rampant misogyny not only from the Opposition but from the male sexists in her own party.  As a result, she may well be seen as a martyr for the feminist cause, however illogical this actually might be.

In the meantime, the mass resignations from the Labor front bench just keep on giving to the Opposition who will need to make no effort at all to present Labor as still deeply divided and not fit to govern.

What I most look forward to seeing Mr Rudd address is the current chaos of lack of border protection that his dismantling of the Howard government measures has caused.  Hard to see how he's going to explain that away.


----------



## bellenuit

sails said:


> No, but I saw some of it.  She was "proud" of all her "achievements and listed them all - much like Anna Bligh did on her concession speech.  If Gillard had actually done as well as she thinks she did, I don't believe she would have been ousted tonight.
> 
> I didn't watch the whole thing.  Can only take so much of the voice...




I noticed no mention of border protection.


----------



## sptrawler

dutchie said:


> The Labor party have lost Wayne Swan, Stephen Conroy, Craig Emerson, Tony Windsor, Rob Oakshott, Julia Gillard and Joe Ludwig. They have gained Kevin Rudd the most dysfunctional Prime Minister ever.




What's wrong with that? They got rid of seven duds and only kept one.

- - - Updated - - -



Julia said:


> What I most look forward to seeing Mr Rudd address is the current chaos of lack of border protection that his dismantling of the Howard government measures has caused.  Hard to see how he's going to explain that away.




IMO. That is the rod that will break Kevs back.


----------



## CanOz

The Australian labor party must be the laughing stock of Global Politics by now, paralleled only by the Argentinian calamity....

Whats the next trick? Surely there's not enough intellectually challenged people in Australia to keep them office?

CanOz


----------



## statisticalg

This is a good soap opera.


----------



## sptrawler

CanOz said:


> The Australian labor party must be the laughing stock of Global Politics by now, paralleled only by the Argentinian calamity....
> 
> Whats the next trick? Surely there's not enough intellectually challenged people in Australia to keep them office?
> 
> CanOz




You're not kidding, Monty Python "The life of Labor"


----------



## chops_a_must

dutchie said:


> The Labor party have lost Wayne Swan, Stephen Conroy, Craig Emerson, Tony Windsor, Rob Oakshott, Julia Gillard and Joe Ludwig. They have gained Kevin Rudd the most dysfunctional Prime Minister ever.






sptrawler said:


> What's wrong with that? They got rid of seven duds and only kept one.




Exactly!

It's amazing how many of Gillard's supporters were truly incompetent and absolute policy disasters and duds!


----------



## noco

Julia said:


> Does anyone have a link to Julia Gillard's speech this evening before she went to see the Governor-General?



Julia, here is the link you may be seeking.

And so endest the last chapter of this thread and the Gillard Government


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...toric-leadership/story-fnho52jo-1226670491081


----------



## Aussiejeff

statisticalg said:


> This is a good soap opera.




The *best*!

Most entertaining night I've had watching Oz TV for quite some time. I hope there will be some repeats of the show in the coming weeks.

:bananasmi

- - - Updated - - -



noco said:


> Julia, here is the link you may be seeking.
> 
> And so endest the last chapter of this thread and the Gillard Government
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...toric-leadership/story-fnho52jo-1226670491081




How ironic that on the day of the Big Media Blitz showing granny Jools knitting baby kangas for the Royal couple, it all blows up in her smug mug.

If that didn't bring a wry smile to your face, I don't know what could....


----------



## nulla nulla

Julia said:


> Thanks, sails.  So at least she didn't weep amongst it all which is a plus.




The fact that Ms Gillard showed no emotion, in her parting press conference, only reinforced my opinion that the tears displayed on a couple of times in parliament were a sham.


----------



## Knobby22

She did show some emotion while talking about her staffers.
I'm glad she didn't start crying though.


----------



## Calliope

Knobby22 said:


> She did show some emotion while talking about her staffers.
> I'm glad she didn't start crying though.




Yes there was a slight tremor when she touched on Wayne Swan's loyalty. But what bug's me about last night is that Julia was proud of what she and her team had achieved, and Rudd heaped praise on her and her team for their achievements.

Wong put it in perspective. She deserted Julia  because  a poll said Rudd could save some seats. 

Australian politics is now driven by a response to a hypothetical question.


----------



## bunyip

What a great situation.....the second worst PM in Australian history has been replaced by the worst PM in Australian history.
I only hope that Aussie voters remember how grossly incompetent and arrogant Rudd was last time he was PM. I hope they remember that just about every one of Labors disastrous policies was a product of the Rudd government. When Gillard got in I hoped she’d take the opportunity of fixing the Rudd mistakes. But she only made things worse.
But let's not forget that the rot began with Rudd.  It would be an extremely poor reflection on the intelligence and common sense of Australian voters if they were to put Rudd back into power after his abysmal performance last time.

One big plus is we’ll no longer have Gillard’s dopey droning voice on TV – the mute button on my remote used to get a solid workout whenever she polluted my screen.


----------



## Calliope

The first honeymoon poll;



> A special snap SMS Morgan Poll (2,530 Australian electors aged 18+) after tonight’s ALP leadership ballot shows a large swing to the ALP 49.5% (up 5%) since last weekend’s multi-mode Morgan Poll, now just behind the L-NP 50.5% (down 5%) on a two-party preferred basis after former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd was returned to the leadership of the ALP after winning a leadership ballot against outgoing Prime Minister Julia Gillard 57-45



.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/s...p 5 cf L-NP 505 down 5  but will it be enough


----------



## Julia

CanOz said:


> The Australian labor party must be the laughing stock of Global Politics by now, paralleled only by the Argentinian calamity....



Indeed.  Our most important neighbours, the Indonesians, described the events as "quite incomprehensible".
(On ABC Radio News in the middle of the night.)



> Whats the next trick? Surely there's not enough intellectually challenged people in Australia to keep them office?
> 
> CanOz



That's what so difficult to understand.  Where is Rudd's popularity coming from?  How could anyone have supported the mess he made in such an overbearing and arrogant fashion?  Already, he's demonstrating that same attitude with arriving half an hour late for his scheduled press conference last night, and apparently late this morning also.



noco said:


> Julia, here is the link you may be seeking.



Thank you, noco.  I did see most of her speech on TV last night.  Thought it was quite good.  No self pity, anyway.




bunyip said:


> What a great situation.....the second worst PM in Australian history has been replaced by the worst PM in Australian history.
> I only hope that Aussie voters remember how grossly incompetent and arrogant Rudd was last time he was PM. I hope they remember that just about every one of Labors disastrous policies was a product of the Rudd government. When Gillard got in I hoped she’d take the opportunity of fixing the Rudd mistakes. But she only made things worse.
> But let's not forget that the rot began with Rudd.  It would be an extremely poor reflection on the intelligence and common sense of Australian voters if they were to put Rudd back into power after his abysmal performance last time.



Exactly.


----------



## McLovin

Miss Hale said:


> Rudd is only popular compared to Gillard.  Once she's out of the way everyone will remember how terrible he was/is too.




You could make exactly the same comment about Abbott. I'm not trying to excuse Rudd, I've always thought he was just a thin veneer but Abbott remains a deeply unpopular opposition leader. 

Obviously only for novelty purposes but what the hell...



> From Roy Morgan Research comes the latest snap opinion polling taken just after Kevin Rudd’s promotion to leader of the Federal Labor Party, showing the ALP (49.5%, up 5%) closing the gap on the Coalition (50.5%, down 5%) on a two-party preferred basis.




http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2013/06/roy-morgan-alp-sees-big-polling-boost-on-rudd/


----------



## Calliope

It's no wonder the GG is laughing. All her stars are in alignment. Her son in-law has joined her two best friends, Kevin and Therese to topple another government.* Oh! What a feeling*.:cup:


----------



## Logique

The desertion of Penny Wong must have been a tough one for the Gillard camp.

Leader of the Govt in the Senate: Penny Wong
Treasurer: Chris Bowen


----------



## bunyip

*Welcome Back Kevvie* (by Bunyip)

Well hello Kev – you’re back again
To lead us from the mire
Created by your leftie pal
The woman called JuLIAR
She really was a shocker, Kev
I’m sure you would agree
She wasn’t fit to lead our land
That’s plain for all to see

But was it really Gillard, Kev
Who put us in the poo?
Most of her stupid policies
Were put in place by you!
Certainly she stuck with them
Instead of tossing them out
But you’re the bloke who thought them up
Of that there is no doubt

I’m sure you’re not in favour, Kev
Of delving into the past
You’d rather no reminder that
Your government was such a farce
And yet I think it’s only fair
The decent thing to do
To talk about the wasteful schemes
That were put in place by YOU

You let the boats come pouring in
The trickle became a flood
Because you scrapped the Howard plan
And replaced it with a dud
That didn’t work, and cost us heaps
Ten billion bucks so far
For that mistake alone, friend Kev
You should be feathered and tarred
And then there’s all the loot you splashed
On pink batts and school halls
The benefit to Australia?
No benefit at all

You brought in tax after failed tax
What were you thinking, Kev?
No wonder you blew the surplus
And put us so far in the red

The question for us voters, Kev
Is why should we vote for you?
You’ve proven yourslef an incomptetent 
Who hasn’t the faintest clue
Of how to control expenditure
Or how to secure our borders
Or how to keep your own party
From disharmony and disorder

You don’t deserve to be leader, Kev
You deserve the same fate as JuLIAR
An LNP government, not ALP
Is our best chance of clearing the mire
Created by you and your former pal Jules
History will list both of you
As the two most hopeless Prime Ministers
That this country ever knew

Before I sign off, Kev
I want to say thanks
For one little favor you’ve done
No more will I hear the dull droning voice
Of the red-head you brought undone.


----------



## moXJO

The NEW Labor party, now with 5 kinds of stupid.
Look out Australia the 'ego' has landed.
I did not think the unions would roll over Gillard considering just how strong their hatred of Rudd was. From what I was told Kev had no way back. Once again though Labor jumps through hoops.
I wonder if people have forgotten so soon just how bad Kevie is?
This is the guy whose ego was so big he blabbed about the bali bomber despite being told not to as there were follow up arrests being made. The guy who jumped from policy to policy without ever finishing the last. So bad they dumped him. Well I suppose Labor is the greener party as they recycle their trash.


----------



## bigdog

When do you think that Julia will moved out of the lodge?

Recall Kevin moved out the next day!!


----------



## moXJO

bigdog said:


> When do you think that Julia will moved out of the lodge?
> 
> Recall Kevin moved out the next day!!




I'd be surprised if Kev bothered to move in. Kudos to Gillard for not blubbering like so many of the men who get the axe in politics.


----------



## Logique

The Sisters should have resigned en masse, says Anne Summers. Also the Labor Party are now misogynists. From possibly the most frightening human being I've ever seen..I needed a stiff cup of tea after Q&A.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bully...e-new-normal-in-australia-20130627-2oysw.html  - _Bullying and outright treachery are the new normal in Australia_  - 27 June 2013 - SMH



> ..No, the rights of women (including the right to even mention these rights) and the prime minister's rights at work have been thoroughly trashed – by the opposition, by the media and now by the Labor Party caucus.
> Including, incredibly, many, maybe most, of its women members.
> 
> *Those ministers who honourably resigned last night did not include a single woman*.
> *Not one of the nine women ministers showed any sisterly solidarity*.
> 
> Do these women seriously think that it was OK for our first woman prime minister to be hounded out of office by bullying, duplicity and an outrageous trashing of her reputation?
> Do they seriously think they are not also contaminated by the crude culture of misogyny that has now enveloped so much of the Labor Party?..
> 
> Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bully...n-australia-20130627-2oysw.html#ixzz2XOu7Z7n8


----------



## Boggo

The jury is out on this Anne Summers.
Pickering is calling a spade a tool for digging holes 
http://pickeringpost.com/article/a-vile-piece-of-trash-called-summers/1577


----------



## Country Lad

bunyip said:


> *Welcome Back Kevvie* (by Bunyip)




Good one Bunyip, from someone who can't put 2 lines together.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Tink

Yes, thats an excellent poem, bunyip, well done.
LOL Logique at the sisters should have walked out en masse

So glad her own party ousted her, we would never have heard the end of it.


----------



## Logique

Boggo said:


> The jury is out on this Anne Summers.
> Pickering is calling a spade a tool for digging holes
> http://pickeringpost.com/article/a-vile-piece-of-trash-called-summers/1577



Pickering, yes always one to call a spade a bl--dy shovel. 

I agree with Pickering on this: 


> We real men adore real women and a thousand “thing”s like you will never drive a wedge between us.


----------



## sptrawler

Logique said:


> The Sisters should have resigned en masse, says Anne Summers. Also the Labor Party are now misogynists. From possibly the most frightening human being I've ever seen..I needed a stiff cup of tea after Q&A.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bully...e-new-normal-in-australia-20130627-2oysw.html  - _Bullying and outright treachery are the new normal in Australia_  - 27 June 2013 - SMH




Yes It's amazing none of the sisters, stood by her, would appear to show a certain amount of shallowness.

Didn't do the womens cause any good though.


----------



## Trentb

Julia said:


> That's what so difficult to understand.  Where is Rudd's popularity coming from?




In my opinion four things. 

1) People wanting to believe that he has changed and want to give him a chance. 
2) People who hated Gillard/Rudd but hate Abbott more. 
3) People who are not rational about/not interested in politics who are looking for any excuse to vote Labor. 
4) People who vote based solely on their own interests which align with Labor.


----------



## Julia

Trentb said:


> In my opinion four things.
> 
> 1) People wanting to believe that he has changed and want to give him a chance.
> 2) People who hated Gillard/Rudd but hate Abbott more.
> 3) People who are not rational about/not interested in politics who are looking for any excuse to vote Labor.
> 4) People who vote based solely on their own interests which align with Labor.



Thanks, Trent.  A logical and rational response.


----------



## MrBurns

I don't like to kick someone when they're down so ill just say that Gillards $200k PA pension will be little compensation for having to live with her massive failures as first female PM.


----------



## qldfrog

Trentb said:


> In my opinion four things.
> 
> 1) People wanting to believe that he has changed and want to give him a chance.
> 2) People who hated Gillard/Rudd but hate Abbott more.
> 3) People who are not rational about/not interested in politics who are looking for any excuse to vote Labor.
> 4) People who vote based solely on their own interests which align with Labor.




Indeed, plus the fact that the current dismal state of the economy, debt and illegal immigrants flood is now perceived as associated to Julia, not him.
As long as Tony is the face of the coalition, justified or not, it will be very hard for them to win against Rudd.
I hope I am wrong...


----------



## bunyip

qldfrog said:


> Indeed, plus the fact that the current dismal state of the economy, debt and illegal immigrants flood is now perceived as associated to Julia, not him.
> As long as Tony is the face of the coalition, justified or not, it will be very hard for them to win against Rudd.
> I hope I am wrong...




There was a woman on the local radio station here the other day - one of those clairvoyant types - predicting that if Rudd ousted Gillard and got an immediate surge of support for Labor, the LNP would respond by ousting Abbot and replacing him with Turnbull.

I doubt if she's right, but we'll find out soon enough.


----------



## bigdog

*457 visa now entitles McTernan to what???*


*Gillard adviser John McTernan quits but will stay on in country he loves*
    by: JOE KELLY
    From: The Australian
    June 27, 2013 3:51PM

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...country-he-loves/story-fnhqeu0x-1226670933403

JULIA Gillard's former communications director John McTernan has quit, but says he will "never apologise" for loving Australia.

Mr McTernan, a former adviser to British Labour prime minister Tony Blair between 2004 and 2007, today said he planned to stay on and cover the upcoming election as a journalist.

He also went to the defence of Ms Gillard after the party shifted its support to Kevin Rudd last night.

"The (former) prime minister is one of the best politicians that I have worked with anywhere in the world and her legacy is there for all to see in the carbon price and the mining tax, the structural separation of Telstra, the consistent growth in the economy, the national disability insurance scheme and the biggest education reforms in 40 years," Mr McTernan said.

"The fact she's done all of those and delivered them in minority government shows what a special politician she is."

Mr McTernan said he would stay on in Australia to do some journalism work, but played down the prospect of writing a book on his experiences.

"I've got two trades. One's journalism and one's politics," he said. "I'm staying around for a bit. I've got plenty of things to write about Australia, plenty of thoughts."

Asked about his thoughts on the nation, he replied: "I'll never apologise for loving this country."

Mr McTernan began working for Ms Gillard in September 2011 and played a key role in Labor's so-called class and gender wars.


----------



## IFocus

sptrawler said:


> Yes It's amazing none of the sisters, stood by her, would appear to show a certain amount of shallowness.
> 
> Didn't do the womens cause any good though.




I thought the article was shallow and devoid of intellect written by a bitter and twisted individual affected by moral decay who thinks...........well he doesn't think.


----------



## Calliope

IFocus said:


> I thought the article was shallow and devoid of intellect written by a bitter and twisted individual affected by moral decay who thinks...........well he doesn't think.




The article was written by Anne Summers, and she's one of yours. Your description of her is spot on though.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bullyi...627-2oysw.html


----------



## Ijustnewit

qldfrog said:


> Indeed, plus the fact that the current dismal state of the economy, debt and illegal immigrants flood is now perceived as associated to Julia, not him.
> As long as Tony is the face of the coalition, justified or not, it will be very hard for them to win against Rudd.
> I hope I am wrong...




If any of the antics I witnessed on the ABC yesterday were any indication I would say Rudd will walk in with support of the Greens again. The ABC was doing handstands yesterday celebrating, dragging in any rovers dog to put a case forward that Rudd will win the election and why. They (the ABC) basically have Rudd in the top job for the next five years.
It's unfortunate but I think they will be correct, there is an old saying in retail " The general public are generally stupid". We have already seen a surge in the polls and with parliament over Rudd will be free to run around the country to more suburban shopping centers spreading his feel good vibe. 
And guess who hangs around in those shopping centers ?


----------



## drsmith

qldfrog said:


> Indeed, plus the fact that the current dismal state of the economy, debt and illegal immigrants flood is now perceived as associated to Julia, not him.
> As long as Tony is the face of the coalition, justified or not, it will be very hard for them to win against Rudd.
> I hope I am wrong...



The above issues I would suggest will be seen as associated with Labor as a whole. 

As for TA and the Coalition, they're now facing a new game, but he's seen Kevin Rudd off once before and there's no reason to suggest he can't see him off again. 

The real question is the extent to which Kevin Rudd himself has changed.


----------



## IFocus

Calliope said:


> The article was written by Anne Summers, and she's one of yours. Your description of her is spot on though.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bullyi...627-2oysw.html




LOL got me there Calliope thought it linked to Pickering.

- - - Updated - - -



drsmith said:


> The real question is the extent to which Kevin Rudd himself has changed.




True but leopards, spots etc cannot see how still if the blow torch can be directed at Abbott for a time Abbott wont get the senate nor should he.


----------



## drsmith

Ijustnewit said:


> If any of the antics I witnessed on the ABC yesterday were any indication I would say Rudd will walk in with support of the Greens again. The ABC was doing handstands yesterday celebrating, dragging in any rovers dog to put a case forward that Rudd will win the election and why. They (the ABC) basically have Rudd in the top job for the next five years.
> It's unfortunate but I think they will be correct, there is an old saying in retail " The general public are generally stupid". We have already seen a surge in the polls and with parliament over Rudd will be free to run around the country to more suburban shopping centers spreading his feel good vibe.
> And guess who hangs around in those shopping centers ?



I too was left with the impression that the ABC had felt that their messiah had risen. That being said, it was Kevin Rudd's day so it's not surprising he got all the attention.

I wouldn't worry about any relief rally for Labor in the polls. That will quickly fade and the true test will be the extent to which the leaders of the major parties have grown over the past few years. Kevin Rudd will offer a different set of tests for Tony Abbott and that in itself is not a bad thing.

Tony Abbott though has had to grow with the discipline of being opposition leader over that time whereas Kevin Rudd's discipline growth has been limited to plotting his political comeback. The results I suspect with time will speak for themselves.


----------



## Calliope

drsmith said:


> I wouldn't worry about any relief rally for Labor in the polls. That will quickly fade and the true test will be the extent to which the leaders of the major parties have grown over the past few years. Kevin Rudd will offer a different set of tests for Tony Abbott and that in itself is not a bad thing.




The Coalition already has three seats in the bag that they didn't have under the Gillard/Rudd regime, courtesy of Windsor, Oakeshott and Slippery Pete. Throw in a few marginals and they are home and hosed. All over, Red Rover.


----------



## Boggo

IFocus said:


> I thought the article was shallow and devoid of intellect written by a bitter and twisted individual affected by moral decay who thinks...........well he doesn't think.







Calliope said:


> The article was written by Anne Summers, and she's one of yours. Your description of her is spot on though.
> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bullyi...627-2oysw.html




Now that is flamin funny


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> There was a woman on the local radio station here the other day - one of those clairvoyant types - predicting that if Rudd ousted Gillard and got an immediate surge of support for Labor, the LNP would respond by ousting Abbot and replacing him with Turnbull.
> 
> I doubt if she's right, but we'll find out soon enough.



I don't think that would happen.  It's Tony Abbott that has brought the Coalition to where it is.  They're not so disposed to disloyalty as are the members of the ALP.



Calliope said:


> The article was written by Anne Summers, and she's one of yours. Your description of her is spot on though.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/bullyi...627-2oysw.html



  So funny!  Fell in there, IFocus.



drsmith said:


> I too was left with the impression that the ABC had felt that their messiah had risen. That being said, it was Kevin Rudd's day so it's not surprising he got all the attention.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about any relief rally for Labor in the polls. That will quickly fade and the true test will be the extent to which the leaders of the major parties have grown over the past few years. Kevin Rudd will offer a different set of tests for Tony Abbott and that in itself is not a bad thing.
> 
> Tony Abbott though has had to grow with the discipline of being opposition leader over that time whereas Kevin Rudd's discipline growth has been limited to plotting his political comeback. The results I suspect with time will speak for themselves.



Agree.  My worry is that Rudd will go to a much earlier election, before the honeymoon gloss has worn off.
It's also a pity that parliament will not be sitting in the pre-election period where he is more clearly exposed than in his poncing round shopping centres.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Ijustnewit said:


> If any of the antics I witnessed on the ABC yesterday were any indication I would say Rudd will walk in with support of the Greens again. *The ABC was doing handstands yesterday celebrating, dragging in any rovers dog to put a case forward that Rudd will win the election and why. They (the ABC) basically have Rudd in the top job for the next five years.*
> It's unfortunate but I think they will be correct, there is an old saying in retail " The general public are generally stupid". We have already seen a surge in the polls and with parliament over Rudd will be free to run around the country to more suburban shopping centers spreading his feel good vibe.
> And guess who hangs around in those shopping centers ?




Indeed, one wonders how much influence Barry Cassidy had behind the scenes in helping stir the coup along? I always got the impression the ABC would do _absolutely anything_ to try and save themselves and their cushy taxpayer funded jobs from almost certainly an Abbott Govt inquisition into the ABC.

If Abbott wins, expect to see blood on the ABC cutting room floor....


----------



## Julia

Aussiejeff said:


> Indeed, one wonders how much influence Barry Cassidy had behind the scenes in helping stir the coup along? I always got the impression the ABC would do _absolutely anything_ to try and save themselves and their cushy taxpayer funded jobs from almost certainly an Abbott Govt inquisition into the ABC.
> 
> If Abbott wins, expect to see blood on the ABC cutting room floor....




Mark Scott, CEO of the ABC needs to go.  He still denies there is any bias in any area of the ABC.
If the head of the organisation has a more objective approach, the journalists won't get away with the sort of "Hallelujah, it's Rudd come to save us" rubbish they are presently enjoying.


----------



## Aussiejeff

Julia said:


> Mark Scott, CEO of the ABC needs to go.  He still denies there is any bias in any area of the ABC.
> If the head of the organisation has a more objective approach, the journalists won't get away with the sort of "Hallelujah, it's Rudd come to save us" rubbish they are presently enjoying.




I've never seen the ABC this horribly biased in my lifetime. Not even in Gough's time. For sure, Scott's head will be the first to roll if the (not so) evil Abbott gets to inquisite him personally! :behead:

One can only vote...and hope.... 

aj


----------



## Country Lad

Calliope said:


> The article was written by Anne Summers, and she's one of yours. Your description of her is spot on though.






> What it means for us ordinary Australians that Julia Gillard was hounded from office in the way she was. We are now, apparently unashamedly, a country where bullying, stalking, undermining and outright treachery are not just tolerated but the new way of doing business.




So why didn't Summers write this 3 years ago?  Just substitute "Kevin Rudd" for "Julia Gillard".  I assume that all her readers can see through the bias.

Cheers
Country Lad


----------



## Calliope

> AFTER being ousted from the top job just three years after she claimed it, Julia Gillard will leave office with a $200,000 pension and a private driver for life.
> 
> But at just 51 years old, retirement is hardly looming for the former prime minister.
> 
> She will have an office, staff, car and free travel for the rest of her life, but rather than becoming the "the most meddlesome great-aunt in Australian history" or investing more time in her knitting, there are plenty of options on the table for Australia's first female PM.




Perhaps Tim will fill the job as her private driver. Then he wouldn't have to keep asking her for pocket money.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/busines...er-prime-minster/story-fni0d8zi-1226671453929


----------



## Bintang

Country Lad said:


> So why didn't Summers write this 3 years ago?  Just substitute "Kevin Rudd" for "Julia Gillard".  I assume that all her readers can see through the bias.
> 
> Cheers
> Country Lad




Only all readers who are not misandrists.
The Prime Misandrist has been ousted so now misogyny rules wearing a blue tie.


----------



## Knobby22

You need a new picture Bintang.


----------



## drsmith

Knobby22 said:


> You need a new picture Bintang.



No he doesn't.

She's wearing a blue tie.


----------



## Bintang

Knobby22 said:


> You need a new picture Bintang.




Maybe, maybe not  - 'Lest We Forget'.
This thread might need a new title also.


----------



## drsmith

Bintang said:


> This thread might need a new title also.



Perhaps not.

If uncle psycho keeps putting Indonesia and conflict together, even if only in the context of the Opposition's asylum policy, Julia might be back in the lodge by the end of next week.


----------



## springhill

Anne Summmers left a few words off the end...

"What it means for us ordinary Australians that Julia Gillard was hounded from office in the way she was. We are now, apparently unashamedly, a country where bullying, stalking, undermining and outright treachery are not just tolerated but the new way of doing business"...... in the Labor Party.


----------



## MrBurns

drsmith said:


> Perhaps not.
> 
> If uncle psycho keeps putting Indonesia and conflict together, even if only in the context of the Opposition's asylum policy, Julia might be back in the lodge by the end of next week.




I think that's appropriate lets have a rolling leadership of proven incompetents to finish the Labor reign


----------



## drsmith

MrBurns said:


> I think that's appropriate lets have a rolling leadership of proven incompetents to finish the Labor reign



The two remaining candidates, in order, are as follows,


----------



## Julia

Country Lad said:


> So why didn't Summers write this 3 years ago?  Just substitute "Kevin Rudd" for "Julia Gillard".  I assume that all her readers can see through the bias.
> 
> Cheers
> Country Lad



Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I don't understand your point about Anne Summers' article.
Summers is the sort of uber feminazi that ordinary women abhor.  She has all of Germaine Greer's ardour but little of Greer's intellectual capacity.

Nonetheless, she absolutely has a valid point about the sisterhood deserting Gillard when she needed them most.
Wong, Plibersek, Macklin et al should hang their heads in mortification, especially after all their faux tirades about Mr Abbott's misogyny.
What a rabble.



Bintang said:


> Maybe, maybe not  - 'Lest We Forget'.
> This thread might need a new title also.



No, I don't think so.  This thread will historically provide a good record of one of Australia's important political periods.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> Wong, Plibersek, Macklin et al should hang their heads in mortification, especially after all their faux tirades about Mr Abbott's misogyny.
> What a rabble.



In the last 30 seconds of tohight's ABC 730 federal political segment, Liberal Senator Michaelia Cash really gives it to Penny Wong and the Labor sisterhood.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-28/can-a-new-labor-leader-turn-around-the-polls/4788976


----------



## Julia

Didn't she though!  I'd never heard of Ms Cash, but will be looking out for her in future.  Way to go!


----------



## noco

I believed after yesterdays event of dislodging Gillard from office, this thread would have come to an abrupt ending.

I don't understand why it is still in vogue.

Gillard is finished, gone for good.


----------



## drsmith

noco said:


> Gillard is finished, gone for good.



Is she ?? 

This is Labor after all.

She might only be in Kevin Rudd's dodgy cryogenic freeze and there are no circumstances under which that fails.

Double


----------



## sptrawler

drsmith said:


> Is she ??
> 
> This is Labor after all.
> 
> She might only be in Kevin Rudd's dodgy cryogenic freeze and there are no circumstances under which that fails.
> 
> Double




200k per year indexed tax free, she's out of there, the rest of Labor are spitting chips they haven't got it.IMO

Kev's laughing because he can now go home to the wife and say, I've brought home the bacon, you're not the main bread winner.lol
My thoughts only
It would be nice if politicians really did care about average people, instead of being average people.IMO


----------



## bunyip

Julia said:


> Didn't she though!  I'd never heard of Ms Cash, but will be looking out for her in future.  Way to go!




I don’t think that’s the ‘way to go’ at all. By all means speak the truth in a very forthright manner, as she did, but her snarling way of doing it will alienate some people. Letting anger and emotions take control is not  in the best interests of any politician.


----------



## Aussiejeff

sptrawler said:


> 200k per year indexed tax free, she's out of there, the rest of Labor are spitting chips they haven't got it.IMO
> 
> Kev's laughing because he can now go home to the wife and say, I've brought home the bacon, you're not the main bread winner.lol
> My thoughts only
> *It would be nice if politicians really did care about average people, instead of being average people*.IMO




I rather think that calling this motly crew "average people" belittles your _real-life_ average person.

This lot is not only _less than average_, they are *below contempt*. 

IMHO.


----------



## springhill

bunyip said:


> I don’t think that’s the ‘way to go’ at all. By all means speak the truth in a very forthright manner, as she did, but her snarling way of doing it will alienate some people. Letting anger and emotions take control is not  in the best interests of any politician.




It got Greg Combet and Stephen Conroy portfolios!


----------



## Julia

bunyip said:


> I don’t think that’s the ‘way to go’ at all. By all means speak the truth in a very forthright manner, as she did, but her snarling way of doing it will alienate some people. Letting anger and emotions take control is not  in the best interests of any politician.



The 'way to go' bit was not meant to be taken in the literal sense that all politicians should snarl.  It's just a saying offering admiration of a particular instance.

She was no more snarling than was Gillard in her infamous misogyny speech and made a far more real point about the sisterhood, for all their cant, having ultimately deserted Gillard in a final gesture of hypocrisy.


----------



## Calliope

Julia said:


> She was no more snarling than was Gillard in her infamous misogyny speech and made a far more real point about the sisterhood, for all their cant, having ultimately deserted Gillard in a final gesture of hypocrisy.




I now know why Penny Wong deserted Gillard for Rudd. Rudd will use any means at his disposal.


----------



## drsmith

Calliope said:


> I now know why Penny Wong deserted Gillard for Rudd. Rudd will use any means at his disposal.



It's about survival. Survival for the party at any cost.

As for Kevin Rudd himself, it doesn't stop with nursing babies. Not only is he looking to modify the carbon price, claim he can now manage boat arrivals and increase social welfare, he's also looking to change the name of the Gonski reforms.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-name-for-gonski/story-fn9qr68y-1226671650100

It would seem a legacy for Julia Gillard is off limits for Labor during this campaign.

- - - Updated - - -



bunyip said:


> I don’t think that’s the ‘way to go’ at all. By all means speak the truth in a very forthright manner, as she did, but her snarling way of doing it will alienate some people. Letting anger and emotions take control is not  in the best interests of any politician.



She did let emotion take control. It wasn't anger though, it was pleasure.

Look at the size of her grin before she dishes it out.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> The 'way to go' bit was not meant to be taken in the literal sense that all politicians should snarl.  It's just a saying offering admiration of a particular instance.
> 
> She was no more snarling than was Gillard in her infamous misogyny speech and made a far more real point about the sisterhood, for all their cant, having ultimately deserted Gillard in a final gesture of hypocrisy.



The full context,



That point of order during the Senate debate on the Migration Amendment (Temporary Sponsored Visas) Bill 2013 wasn't a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JVdnD8cTeWc


----------



## drsmith

More on Senator Cash,

She does have trouble controlling her emotions though. While it's OK in the Senate in response to a silly point of order, it's not a god idea to essentially grin from end to end in a press conference on an issue she's trying to project as serious.

In her approach to the waiting media, she looks like a kid just let loose in a candy shop.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=I4FcT19X9gY


----------



## Julia

drsmith said:


> More on Senator Cash,
> 
> She does have trouble controlling her emotions though. While it's OK in the Senate in response to a silly point of order, it's not a god idea to essentially grin from end to end in a press conference on an issue she's trying to project as serious.
> 
> In her approach to the waiting media, she looks like a kid just let loose in a candy shop.



I accept your point about her gleefulness which does detract from her otherwise entirely valid remarks.
If she can modify the over-the-top stuff, I think she's a pretty impressive performer.


----------



## drsmith

Julia said:


> If she can modify the over-the-top stuff, I think she's a pretty impressive performer.



One would hope at least that her performance in the Senate yesterday might earn her some media training so she can present herself to the public in such a way as to not diminish any valid point of seriousness that she's raising.

A lot of that though is common sense too, particularly for someone that's in their 40's.


----------



## So_Cynical

390 pages in this thread for a leader that was 3 years in the job...with probably 90% of the content posted by 12 people or less.

Can we lock this thread now?


----------



## McLovin

So_Cynical said:


> 390 pages in this thread for a leader that was 3 years in the job...with probably 90% of the content posted by 12 people or less.
> 
> Can we lock this thread now?




70% by the top 12 posters. Looking at the stats, some people have wayyy to much time on their hands.


----------



## drsmith

So_Cynical said:


> 390 pages in this thread for a leader that was 3 years in the job...with probably 90% of the content posted by 12 people or less.
> 
> Can we lock this thread now?



That box of tissues you've gone through is almost one more than Kevin Rudd and the rest of Labor have.


----------



## MrBurns

The little rat fink Rudd is off to Indonesia to white ant Abbott, I hope someone plants some dope on him.


----------



## dutchie

So_Cynical said:


> 390 pages in this thread for a leader that was 3 years in the job...with probably 90% of the content posted by 12 people or less.
> 
> Can we lock this thread now?




Why should we lock it.

A most successful thread if nothing else. We finally convinced the Labor Party that Gillard was not up to the job - completely out of her class in so many ways.

We got rid of her didn't we? The next victim is the other incompetent with the white hair.

Also completely out of his class in so many ways -  the Labor Party already knows this (see some of their opinions about him over the years) but he is deemed to be useful for a few months.

Bring on the next thread - "The short lived Rudd Government"

We'll see him off too!


It's been fun, especially when some people tried to defend her Government.


----------



## dutchie

Federal Labor frontbencher Greg Combet to quit politics.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-29/greg-combet-quits-politics/4789542

He joins, along with Gillard
Stephen Smith, Defence Minister
Nicola Roxon, former Attorney General
Craig Emerson, former Trade Minister
Martin Ferguson, former Resources Minister
Robert McClelland, former Attorney General
Chris Evans, former Government Leader in the Senate
Peter Garrett, former School Education Minister.

At least these people have some morals and ethics i.e. they are not going to debase themselves under a man who has been called by his own Party as -
a lunatic, dysfunctional, chaotic, saboteur, contemptible, has very bad behaviour, completely outrageous, a jihadist of revenge, manipulative, prima donna, evil, once in a lifetime egomaniac .....

Pity we can't say the same about the hypocrites - "Shorten the rat" and the "non sisters" Wong and Plibersek.


----------



## Miss Hale

What about Conroy, any chance he will go? (I can't remember if he is in the Rudd or Gillard camp).


----------



## drsmith

Miss Hale said:


> What about Conroy, any chance he will go? (I can't remember if he is in the Rudd or Gillard camp).



Gillard.

The ABC has an updating list of the fallen, the replacements and the Gillard supporters Kevin Rudd still needs in order to assemble some sort of front bench. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-25/kevin-rudd-returns-winners-losers/4783676

Of the eight fallen, five thus far are not recontesting and Stephen Smith while listed in the first group of eight will maintain his defence portfolio till the election.


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## Miss Hale

drsmith said:


> Gillard.
> 
> The ABC has an updating list of the fallen, the replacements and the Gillard supporters Kevin Rudd still needs in order to assemble some sort of front bench.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-25/kevin-rudd-returns-winners-losers/4783676
> 
> Of the eight fallen, five thus far are not recontesting and Stephen Smith while listed in the first group of eight will maintain his defence portfolio till the election.




Thanks.  Oh happy days, no more Conroy as Communications minister!!!


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## Julia

So_Cynical said:


> 390 pages in this thread for a leader that was 3 years in the job...with probably 90% of the content posted by 12 people or less.
> 
> Can we lock this thread now?



Why should it be locked?   It's a valid commentary on an important part of Australia's history.  People might still wish to add their comments.



McLovin said:


> 70% by the top 12 posters. Looking at the stats, some people have wayyy to much time on their hands.



Or perhaps some of us just have a strong interest in politics.  Maybe not necessary to brand us in any derogatory way.  There has never been any requirement for you to read or participate in the thread if you find it tedious.


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## sptrawler

Funny how the Labor contributors want to close the thread.
Maybe they want to bring to an end the debate on the most disgracefull government in history.
Why are senior members of the Labor party standing down, not to recontest their seats?
Could it be due to the worry of Abbott getting in and calling a Royal Commission.lol

There is too many bailing out, to just put it down to not liking Rudd?
I don't know what the ramifications are if someone is found out in a Royal Commission, but there seems to be a lot jumping ship.


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## Calliope

Miss Hale said:


> Thanks.  Oh happy days, no more Conroy as Communications minister!!!




There was a suggestion on Insiders that Rudd might offer him the job back.


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## Miss Hale

Calliope said:


> There was a suggestion on Insiders that Rudd might offer him the job back.




Oh please no!!!  And he would take it too, doesn't seem to be over endowed with integrity.


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## Bintang

McLovin said:


> 70% by the top 12 posters. Looking at the stats, some people have wayyy to much time on their hands.




Very much like our politicians who it seems must spend way too much time Tweeting. When do they have time to actually do any governing.


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## Calliope

According to this book "The Stalking of Julia Gillard" by Kerry-Anne Walsh, neither Rudd nor the Opposition nor the Press come out of this with clean hands.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/in-his-sights-covert-kevins-mission-to-get-julia-20130629-2p3p7.html


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## Julia

This extract from today's editorial in the "Sunday Mail" gets it right:



> Mr Rudd has undoubtedly convinced himself that he, and he alone, is the shining knight the nation has been hoping and waiting for.  But he is wrong.
> 
> He has not resumed the leadership because the ALP suddenly realised it had made a terrible mistake in dumping him, certainly not because he has managed to unite the party, and not because he has outlined an irresistible package of policy visions to the public.
> 
> He is there simply because enough self-interested MPs, panicked by the prospect of losing their seats, finally came to the conclusion that he is the best of a very bad bunch.


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## Aussiejeff

Perhaps to soothe our Laborious posters' collective furrowed brows, well might we say the thread title should be *"The Gillard Government Is History"*[SUP]TM[/SUP], since nothing will save the Gillard Government - from the bowels of remembrance.


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## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> According to this book "The Stalking of Julia Gillard" by Kerry-Anne Walsh, neither Rudd nor the Opposition nor the Press come out of this with clean hands.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/national/in-his-sights-covert-kevins-mission-to-get-julia-20130629-2p3p7.html




That came out in a hurry , what a load of old rubbish, when will people finally realise no one "got" Gillard but herself and it's nothing to do with gender, why don't people make the same comments about Julie Bishop ? because she's smart not a nasty venom spitting reptile like Gillard was, Rudd couldn't "get" anyone he's useless, Gillard shot herself in the foot every time she opened her mouth.

Book sales ? 1
Tim bought one for Julia .


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## Calliope

MrBurns said:


> That came out in a hurry , what a load of old rubbish, *when will people finally realise no one "got" Gillard but herself and it's nothing to do with gender*, why don't people make the same comments about Julie Bishop ? because she's smart not a nasty venom spitting reptile like Gillard was, Rudd couldn't "get" anyone he's useless, Gillard shot herself in the foot every time she opened her mouth.
> 
> Book sales ? 1
> Tim bought one for Julia .




Did you actually read the extract? Nowhere in it does it refer to a gender problem.


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## Julia

Calliope said:


> Did you actually read the extract? Nowhere in it does it refer to a gender problem.



I didn't think so either.  It seemed a pretty factual account to me.


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## MrBurns

Calliope said:


> Did you actually read the extract? Nowhere in it does it refer to a gender problem.




Yes I got off track there, the extract doesn't mention it but it will be in the book somewhere no doubt.

- - - Updated - - -



> Public support for Gillard and her government started crashing in February 2011, after she announced she would introduce a carbon pricing scheme. Her critics claimed she had broken an ironclad election promise not to introduce a ''carbon tax''. During the election campaign she had stated: ''There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead, but let me be clear: I will be putting a price on carbon and I will move to an emissions trading scheme.'' This is what she announced, but not as far as those in the opposition and hysterical commentariat were concerned.




That's the first I knew of the full statement, if that's what she said how could the Labor party allow that to get out of control ?


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## springhill

"Public support for Gillard and her government started crashing in February 2011, after she announced she would introduce a carbon pricing scheme. Her critics claimed she had broken an ironclad election promise not to introduce a ''carbon tax''. During the election campaign she had stated: ''*There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead, but let me be clear: I will be putting a price on carbon* and I will move to an emissions trading scheme.'' This is what she announced, but not as far as those in the opposition and hysterical commentariat were concerned".

A rose (or tax) by any other name is still a rose (tax).

Incredible to look back afterwards and see that this one statement, so early on, was already the beginning of the end for Gillard and to top it all off, it was self-inflicted.

It reminds me Licoln's saying, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.".


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## drsmith

springhill said:


> "''*There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead, but let me be clear: I will be putting a price on carbon* and I will move to an emissions trading scheme.''



If we want to look broadly at the impression Labor attempted to give the electorate on carbon pricing during the 2010 election campaign, the first post of the carbon tax thread lays it out clearly.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21961&p=614322&viewfull=1#post614322

If Labor were going to introduce it during the 2010/13 term, then like any other economy wide tax, a complete plan should have been put to the electorate as John Howard did with the GST in 1998.

In political terms, Julia Gillard has ended up paying the ultimate price for her mistake.


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## bunyip

bunyip said:


> I don’t think that’s the ‘way to go’ at all. By all means speak the truth in a very forthright manner, as she did, but her snarling way of doing it will alienate some people. Letting anger and emotions take control is not  in the best interests of any politician.






Julia said:


> The 'way to go' bit was not meant to be taken in the literal sense that all politicians should snarl.  It's just a saying offering admiration of a particular instance.
> 
> She was no more snarling than was Gillard in her infamous misogyny speech and made a far more real point about the sisterhood, for all their cant, having ultimately deserted Gillard in a final gesture of hypocrisy.




I have no problem with what she said, just with the ranting way she said it. Certainly she made some valid points about the Labor sisterhood. But she didn’t have to descend to an undignified Gillard-style rant to do it – surely she could have got her message across  without lowering herself to Gillard’s grubby standards.
The one redeeming factor for Ms Cash was that she spoke truthfully, in stark comparison to Gillard’s rants that were 100% lies.

My wife came into our lounge room when Ms Cash was on TV snarling and ranting and waving her hands around, and her reaction was ‘_Who the heck is that woman and what’s she ranting and raving about’?_
When I told her the ranter was a coalition senator, her answer was_ ‘Well she needs to tone it down a bit, otherwise she looks no better than Julia Gillard’._

One of the TV commentators summed up Ms Cash’s performance by saying _‘Some members of the opposition are clearly rattled by Rudd’s return’._



Julia said:


> If she can modify the over-the-top stuff, I think she's a pretty impressive performer.




My point exactly - she needs to tone it down, leave out the histrionics , and then she could be an effective strike weapon for the opposition.


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## MrBurns

If Rudd falls ill Anthony Albanese, will be PM........think about it.


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## bunyip

MrBurns said:


> If Rudd falls ill Anthony Albanese, will be PM........think about it.





Yes, the prospect of having a clown like Albo in the top job is pretty scary!

If it's possible for any man to be more stupid and incompetent than Rudd and Gillard, then Albanese could just be that man.


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## bunyip

Gillard claims that as a result of her prime ministership, it will be easier for the next woman, and the one after that, and the one after her, to go right to the top of politics.

My view is that Gillard put the cause of women in politics back many years. 
I see no reason why women can’t do the top job just as well as men, but it might be harder to convince voters of that after the last three years of witnessing the abject failure that was Australia’s first female PM.


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## boofhead

If Rudd topples, it doesn't automatically mean Albo is promoted. Leader and deputy leader are seperate ballots. Look at the Liberals - Bishop has been deputy for how long and for how many leaders?


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## Knobby22

boofhead said:


> If Rudd topples, it doesn't automatically mean Albo is promoted. Leader and deputy leader are seperate ballots. Look at the Liberals - Bishop has been deputy for how long and for how many leaders?




Bishop is your classic "loyal" deputy.


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## Calliope

boofhead said:


> If Rudd topples, it doesn't automatically mean Albo is promoted. Leader and deputy leader are seperate ballots. Look at the Liberals - Bishop has been deputy for how long and for how many leaders?




Albo, of course will be acting PM while Kevin 747 is tripping about. I think Rudd will delay the election long enough to make triumphal "look at me" overseas tours.


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## Aussiejeff

Calliope said:


> Albo, of course will be acting PM while Kevin 747 is tripping about.* I think Rudd will delay the election long enough to make triumphal "look at me" overseas tours*.




Last time he tried that a massive Climate Sceptic Bomb (or CSB) blew up in his face.....he still bears the scars.


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## Julia

Calliope said:


> I think Rudd will delay the election long enough to make triumphal "look at me" overseas tours.



Yes, and hasn't he also suggested he might even take Mr Abbott along to the G20?  I can just picture it:  Rudd strutting the world stage, Tony trailing behind him like Tim did after Gillard.


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## IFocus

Knobby22 said:


> Bishop is your classic "loyal" deputy.





LOL yes she also has a bank called "Gina" hence deputy not so sure about the loyal


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## bunyip

boofhead said:


> If Rudd topples, it doesn't automatically mean Albo is promoted. Leader and deputy leader are seperate ballots. Look at the Liberals - Bishop has been deputy for how long and for how many leaders?






True - but even the prospect of having that dead beat Albo in the top job for just a few weeks while Rudd is out of the country, is more than a little bit disturbing.
People like Albanese shouldn't be leading the country even for a few weeks...he's just not leadership material.
But then neither was Gillard, as the last three years have shown. Or Rudd either for that matter.


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## drsmith

IFocus said:


> LOL yes she also has a bank called "Gina" hence deputy not so sure about the loyal



The latest Morgan poll gives you some false hope.

http://www.roymorgan.com/~/media/Files/Findings/2013/July/5010-Fed-Vote-July-1-2013.pdf


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## Calliope

drsmith said:


> The latest Morgan poll gives you some false hope.
> 
> http://www.roymorgan.com/~/media/Files/Findings/2013/July/5010-Fed-Vote-July-1-2013.pdf




That's good. It might encourage Rudd to go to the polls earlier.


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## drsmith

Calliope said:


> That's good. It might encourage Rudd to go to the polls earlier.



Not if he's also looking at the Sportsbet odds. That still has Labor way behind.

I suspect he's going to try to spend his way back into office and the election timing will be determined by the public response to that.


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## dutchie

The first fatal blow....for her and Labor









The final blow to this whole sorry saga will be executed by the Australian public on Saturday 7th September 2013!


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## drsmith

dutchie said:


> The first fatal blow....for her and Labor



Today is the third anniversary of those words.

It's a pity her government died of shame at the hands of Kevin Rudd, Bill Shorten and the Labor sisterhood before the electorate got its chance to put it out of its misery. 

Happy anniversary Juliar.


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## drsmith

Andrew Wilkie says Julia Gillard tried to recruit him to the Labor Party in 2011,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-12/wilkie-says-gillard-tried-to-recruit-him-to-labor/5314976

The rest, as we all know, is history.


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## Calliope

Julia Gillard should have provided a minder for Tim the demon barber while she was overseas.

Mathieson in an after-hours message left on Napthine’s electorate office answering machine reported in News Corp Sundays yesterday:



> IF he mentions the prime minister’s partner one more time, one more time, there will be a legal action against Denis the Vet ... I am not, I am not, anything to do with Geoff Shaw, in any way, shape or form. So, if he mentions me one more time, I am telling you right now. OK? That’s it. Bang.


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## Tisme

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ce-sitcom-at-home-with-julia?CMP=share_btn_tw



> “I have made the point since that, if Australia had an Aboriginal Australian prime minister and the opposition leader went and stood in front of signs that said ‘Sack the black’, or inserted any of the dreadful words we have for Aboriginal Australians, it would have been a career-ending moment,” she told the Atlantic.


----------

