# Trading Simulator



## Modest (10 September 2012)

What trading Sim does everyone on ASF recommend? 

I'd prefer if it had global markets and not specific to a single country. I begun using CMC Markets Demo account but a little annoyed that a lot of the stuff is only accessible to their Live Accounts.


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## Trembling Hand (10 September 2012)

What kind of sim you use will depend on what instruments and what time frame you are trading. It depends on lots of things actually, data, instrument, time frame, frequency, discretionary or system trading blah blah blah.

You haven't given much info to work with.


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## Modest (10 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> What kind of sim you use will depend on what instruments and what time frame you are trading. It depends on lots of things actually, data, instrument, time frame, frequency, discretionary or system trading blah blah blah.
> 
> You haven't given much info to work with.




My apologies TH I am new to trading. 

I like the idea of starting out by going long on stocks, Technical Analysis appeals very much to me as I am a visual person and I'd like to be a discretionary trader.

I like the idea of skimming for awhile to learn a little (is that even the right term) basically I'd like to start off buying stock that I believe will increase in the short term, getting a modest profit after brokerage (50 - $100) selling and repeating the process. 

I understand there is shorting but I am not full bottle on that and other ways to trade the above I personally think  the above is the most appropriate way to slowly learn the ropes but please feel free to correct me.

Thanks!


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## CanOz (10 September 2012)

Modest said:


> My apologies TH I am new to trading.
> 
> I like the idea of starting out by going long on stocks, Technical Analysis appeals very much to me as I am a visual person and I'd like to be a discretionary trader.
> 
> ...




I'd recommend getting a demo FX account. If you can double that in a month then go looking for some real action...

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (10 September 2012)

Whats ya budget?


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## tech/a (10 September 2012)

CanOz said:


> I'd recommend getting a demo FX account. If you can double that in a month then go looking for some real action...
> 
> CanOz





MT 4

http://www.metatrader4.com/


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## Modest (10 September 2012)

So you guys are suggesting I start trading in Currencies as both suggestions appear to be currency trading platforms?


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## Trembling Hand (10 September 2012)

Modest said:


> So you guys are suggesting I start trading in Currencies as both suggestions appear to be currency trading platforms?




FX is basically free. If you want to sim trade stocks on a short term basis you will have to pay for the data. Thats going to be from 40-120 per month.


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## tech/a (10 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> FX is basically free. If you want to sim trade stocks on a short term basis you will have to pay for the data. Thats going to be from 40-120 per month.




Well if your going to trade your going to need data.
If you can't afford data then you can't afford to trade.


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## skc (10 September 2012)

Depending on how you trade your stocks, if you just doing End of Day, hold a few weeks sort of stuff. Pen and paper is all you need (or a spreadsheet of course).

You can get prices from a number of free sources (e.g. yahoo, google).
You record your own buy/sell price.
You can get charts from a number of free sources (e.g. yahoo, incredible charts).
Just mark your trades and see how you go.

If you want something a little bit more dynamic for stocks, I think IG Markets let you trial for 2 weeks and stream you live stock prices.


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## Modest (10 September 2012)

Thanks for the advice guys. I've kind of figured out the CMC Markets platform and looking at playing in the Demo day trading. Figured out how to get the Charts and Technicals going (using MACD & RSI) so the platform is starting to appeal to me and it appears to be fetching Live Data (not sure?).


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## CanOz (10 September 2012)

Modest said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. I've kind of figured out the CMC Markets platform and looking at playing in the Demo day trading. Figured out how to get the Charts and Technicals going (using MACD & RSI) so the platform is starting to appeal to me and it appears to be fetching Live Data (not sure?).




If your trading fx then keep a close eye on the market opens and try to avoid the dull areas. Some people think because fx is 24 hours there will be lots of opportunities, when in reality there are better times to trade than others. A keen eye will see some things that tend to happen more often than not, and you may be able to take advantage of that.

CanOz


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## Modest (10 September 2012)

I don't have a very good feeling about Forex Trading at the moment. I did look into it, read up watch some videos but it didn't tickle me like CFD's in Commodities and Companies.


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## Modest (10 September 2012)

Also can anyone give me a low down on 'direct' trading. Say I don't want to do CFD's and I just want trade actual stock on the ASX what platform would one recommend?


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## CanOz (10 September 2012)

Modest said:


> I don't have a very good feeling about Forex Trading at the moment. I did look into it, read up watch some videos but it didn't tickle me like CFD's in Commodities and Companies.




Yup, and you want free intraday data. Generally they do this for FX only as there are little in exchange fees for them to pass onto you. 

You can't have your cake and eat it too!

CanOz


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## Modest (10 September 2012)

I never said I did not want to pay a fee to receive live data streams. My initial question was about Simulators, a Sim doesn't need to be live to the second IMO.


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## CanOz (11 September 2012)

Modest said:


> I never said I did not want to pay a fee to receive live data streams. My initial question was about Simulators, a Sim doesn't need to be live to the second IMO.




Well it's either intraday or end of day. EOD is free from Ninjatrader for US stocks. Intraday is a different story, you'll need to pay for data other than FX.

CanOz


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## Modest (11 September 2012)

CanOz said:


> Well it's either intraday or end of day. EOD is free from Ninjatrader for US stocks. Intraday is a different story, you'll need to pay for data other than FX.
> 
> CanOz




Thanks for clarifying CanOz checking out NT now. 

What does everyone use to trade non CFD's on the ASX directly?


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## Modest (11 September 2012)

Jeeze I am blind as a bat! Turns out CMC Markets does Stockbrokering platform so I can trade non CFD. Awesome. Just goes to show what a newb I am.

I think I'll skip CFD's for now and just trade direct stocks with my very own capital instead of having that temptation to use CFD leverage.

What do you guys think?


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## CanOz (11 September 2012)

Modest said:


> Jeeze I am blind as a bat! Turns out CMC Markets does Stockbrokering platform so I can trade non CFD. Awesome. Just goes to show what a newb I am.
> 
> I think I'll skip CFD's for now and just trade direct stocks with my very own capital instead of having that temptation to use CFD leverage.
> 
> What do you guys think?





In my view CFDs should only be used by experienced traders that understand the advantage of leverage and how it should be used as well as how to cope with the spreads. 

Trading the real instrument is a good choice for now.


CanOz


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## Modest (11 September 2012)

Thanks for the response CanOz I have more questions newbie questions.

I created a stockbrokering account via CMC Markets to trade direct stocks on the ASX however I'm kind of bummed about their platform. Compared to their CFD platform the platform for the real
Instrument seems so dated and non-user friendly. I much preferred the interface of their CFD platform.

It just feels like a backwards step in terms of platform, what's the go?


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## Trembling Hand (11 September 2012)

Modest said:


> Thanks for the response CanOz I have more questions newbie questions.
> 
> I created a stockbrokering account via CMC Markets to trade direct stocks on the ASX however I'm kind of bummed about their platform. Compared to their CFD platform the platform for the real
> Instrument seems so dated and non-user friendly. I much preferred the interface of their CFD platform.
> ...




CFD platforms are designed like pokie machines with flashing lights and exotic instruments to make you feel like Gordon Gecko. They are made for the dumb white male in the 26 to 40 age group to excite and play on their deep-seated dream to be a billionaire/James Bond type.

Forget about the platform. Spend the next month or two reading some good trading books to get an understanding about this game. Then you will be able to properly investigative all these things for yourself.

IMO


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## CanOz (11 September 2012)

Modest said:


> Thanks for the response CanOz I have more questions newbie questions.
> 
> I created a stockbrokering account via CMC Markets to trade direct stocks on the ASX however I'm kind of bummed about their platform. Compared to their CFD platform the platform for the real
> Instrument seems so dated and non-user friendly. I much preferred the interface of their CFD platform.
> ...




Sorry, I cannot comment on thier platform as I've not used it. I use Amibroker for my EOD stock trading platform, NT for descretionary intraday index trading, and Multicharts for systematic trading of index futures.

Do you still want to trade intraday long only stocks?

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (11 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> CFD platforms are designed like pokie machines with flashing lights and exotic instruments to make you feel like Gordon Gecko. They are made for the dumb white male in the 26 to 40 age group to excite and play on their *deep-seated dream to be a billionaire/James Bond type.*




Haha case perfectly illustrated by this tosser,


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## McLovin (11 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Haha case perfectly illustrated by this tosser,





That's brilliant. Reminds me of those punters who'd walk around with one of those ASX pagers that feed price data to them. They advertised them in the old "Shares" magazine, which should tell you who they were targeting.


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## tech/a (11 September 2012)

In an ideal world *what are the features people expect *in a trade simulator.

What are important to *YOU* (This is a general question not directed at anyone).

Ill list features I think important and see how many people agree or disagree with.
Hopefully some additions.

(1) Realtime
(2) Broad markets from equities to FX.
(3) Ability to trade with conditional orders.
(4) Ability to design trading methods that can be rigorously tested.
(5) Ability to view statistical reports and graphs showing Realtime trading results and of course Back Tested results.
(6) The ability to compare 4 and 5.
(7) Support network of like minded people.
(8) An idea base from which to start.


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## Trembling Hand (11 September 2012)

tech/a said:


> Ill list features I think important and see how many people agree or disagree with.
> Hopefully some additions.
> 
> (1) Realtime
> ...




NT (Free)connected with esignals data ($200-$400 a month) or IB data ($100 a month)

Easy.


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## tech/a (11 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> NT (Free)connected with esignals data ($200-$400 a month) or IB data ($100 a month)
> 
> Easy.




So Ninja Trader has this already?


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## Trembling Hand (11 September 2012)

tech/a said:


> So Ninja Trader has this already?




The only thing I'm not sure about is point 6. Are you talking about some sort of statistical comparison?

You can add ability to program systems *and *indicators.


http://www.ninjatrader.com/tour#Analysis
http://www.ninjatrader.com/tour#Educate


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## CanOz (11 September 2012)

NT has a weakness for intraday systems...it cannot backtest intrabar like tradestation and MC. 

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (11 September 2012)

CanOz said:


> NT has a weakness for intraday systems...it cannot backtest intrabar like tradestation and MC.
> 
> CanOz




Not true,
http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=6652


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## CanOz (11 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Not true,
> http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=6652




As of the latest version, you still cannot backtest intrabar. Waza can confirm this too I'm sure, but in my testing of the three systems I had developed with a coder, none of them would look inside the bar while backtesting. This is why I switched to MC, along with the language issue. The results between the market replay and the backtest were catastrophically different.

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (11 September 2012)

CanOz said:


> As of the latest version, you still cannot backtest intrabar. Waza can confirm this too I'm sure, but in my testing of the three systems I had developed with a coder, none of them would look inside the bar while backtesting. This is why I switched to MC, along with the language issue. The results between the market replay and the backtest were catastrophically different.
> 
> CanOz




You can do with a second data series but have to do it via programming. 

I think


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## CanOz (11 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> You can do with a second data series but have to do it via programming.
> 
> I think




Yeah possibly, like a one minute bar or less. MC and TS only can see into one minute or higher. Even then many developers use multiple time frames/data series.

CanOz


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## waza1960 (11 September 2012)

> Originally Posted by Trembling Hand
> 
> Not true,
> http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/f...ead.php?t=6652
> ...




CanOz is correct .The link TH supplied shows you how to code for intra bar granularity but backtesting and Sim still only calculates On Bar Close . NT Backtest and Sim results I found where approx 20% different from live results . MT4 is less than half that. 
   MT4 has an issue though where if you use indicators in different time frames within the one strategy .The non chart time frame indicator only calculates on the Bar Open.
  Every platform has its weaknesses but NT has that many that its virtually useless for Auto Trading IMO.





> So Ninja Trader has this already?
> The only thing I'm not sure about is point 6. Are you talking about some sort of statistical comparison?
> 
> You can add ability to program systems and indicators.




Ninja Trader Reports can be imported into excel.That is the only way you could compare live trading vs Backtested results


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## Modest (11 September 2012)

Sheesh what have I got myself into! 

 Programming this, backtesting, granularity that  

Can money be made by someone like myself who's looking at going long on certain stocks using either EOD Data or CMC Markets 20 minute delayed data? By making money I am talking about reading into charts heavily using TA techniques to determine positive trends then selling a day or few later to skim the profits of the positive trend(s).

The above with out having to program, backtest and use calculus?


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## tech/a (11 September 2012)

Modest said:


> Sheesh what have I got myself into!
> 
> Programming this, backtesting, granularity that
> 
> ...




Probably not.
Your describing long term Analysis for a short term trade.
You need the analysis to match the timeframe.


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## Modest (11 September 2012)

tech/a said:


> Probably not.
> Your describing long term Analysis for a short term trade.
> You need the analysis to match the timeframe.




Alright to confirm I'd need live intraday data? Or are you referring to the programming side?


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## tech/a (11 September 2012)

Modest said:


> Alright to confirm I'd need live intraday data? Or are you referring to the programming side?




No I'm talking about your method of analysis.
You need analysis which can instantly tell you
If the bar your trading is likely to be a continuation of a trend
An ending of a trend the reversal of a trend or the beginning of 
A trend 

No point at looking at the past month!
Best look at the last 10. 1 min bars
For pattern and perhaps 5 min bars for
Individual EOD internal bar analysis.

This wil help you answer the first part of this post.


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## Modest (12 September 2012)

Thanks mate

I keep getting pulled back to CFD's because I'm doing pretty alright in the CMC Demo CFD account (modest profits) and I love the platform + cheaper for live data.

I was thinking of minimizing the margin using no finance on the CFD platform. I'll enter CFDs with this position of being extremely cautious and thus using only my capital. 

I think I'll start another Demo account and play CFD's with absolute minimum finance and see how I go.


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