# Has anyone here made themselves "rich" or wealthy by trading?



## Steve C

Hi All,

With all the scams and spruikers around promising the lifestyles we all dream of, I am legitimately wondering can anyone on here say they have made themselves rich or wealthy by trading (or know someone who has). My definition of rich would be enough capital to have no financial stresses, travel the world, buy that Porsche or Ferrari and live in a million dollar + home and I don't mean people that trade a bit and also earn $250 000 a year from their work income. 

My goal  over the next few years is to learn, save and invest as much as possible and use trading as a vehicle to fund a financial stress free lifestyle by the time I am 40 - 50, hey while I am at it go on lots of holidays, drive a supercar (or if that is to unrealistic, an M3, C63 AMG) etc.

I guess the point of my thread is to align my goal with reality, and to see if many people on here have managed to become wealthy by trading.

Steve


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## DB008

George Soros?


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## Steve C

DB008 said:


> George Soros?




I am not talking about extreme outliers, I am talking about your average ASF user who puts in the years of hardwork researching and developing a system that works for them, using capital available to the average person.


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## prawn_86

I can only think of 1 ASF member that *may* fit that category. Even if you are an amazing trader, if you want to drive super-cars you need a hell of a lot of starting capital, and if you are that good a trader you might as well go and do a profit share for a hedge fund etc same as Greg Coffey. Nothing wrong with working for a wage in the right situation


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## Steve C

prawn_86 said:


> I can only think of 1 ASF member that *may* fit that category. Even if you are an amazing trader, if you want to drive super-cars you need a hell of a lot of starting capital, and if you are that good a trader you might as well go and do a profit share for a hedge fund etc same as Greg Coffey. Nothing wrong with working for a wage in the right situation




Perhaps I need to pull things back a few pegs, lets change wealthy to having no financial stresses, enough money to do all the things that they please, what is referred to as "well off". I guess the level of finances one step below my initial post.


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## skc

Steve C said:


> Hi All,
> 
> With all the scams and spruikers around promising the lifestyles we all dream of, I am legitimately wondering can anyone on here say they have made themselves rich or wealthy by trading (or know someone who has). My definition of rich would be enough capital to have no financial stresses, travel the world, buy that Porsche or Ferrari and live in a million dollar + home and I don't mean people that trade a bit and also earn $250 000 a year from their work income.
> 
> My goal  over the next few years is to learn, save and invest as much as possible and use trading as a vehicle to fund a financial stress free lifestyle by the time I am 40 - 50, hey while I am at it go on lots of holidays, drive a supercar (or if that is to unrealistic, an M3, C63 AMG) etc.
> 
> I guess the point of my thread is to align my goal with reality, and to see if many people on here have managed to become wealthy by trading.
> 
> Steve




You can always work backwards. Say you are 25yr old and you want to have $10m cold hard cash by 45yrs old. 
Let's say you are a gun trader that can generate 30% return p.a., by the time you pay taxes (asusming company tax rate), business expense, living expense and your drug habit, you probably have ~20% return you can compound with. To get to $10m compounding at 20% over 20 years, you need to start with ~$260k. 

So to get there privately you need 20 years of 30% return pa. That's why rich traders are by definition outliers.

Aim a bit lower like starting with $25k @ 25 yrs old and compounding at 15% after tax while keeping a primary income, you get just under $823k by the time you are 50yrs. 

And if you want to supercharge this, you need to be trading other people's money.


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## againsthegrain

Steve C said:


> Perhaps I need to pull things back a few pegs, lets change wealthy to having no financial stresses, enough money to do all the things that they please, what is referred to as "well off". I guess the level of finances one step below my initial post.




Drukdealer


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## Steve C

skc said:


> You can always work backwards. Say you are 25yr old and you want to have $10m cold hard cash by 45yrs old.
> Let's say you are a gun trader that can generate 30% return p.a., by the time you pay taxes (asusming company tax rate), business expense, living expense and your drug habit, you probably have ~20% return you can compound with. To get to $10m compounding at 20% over 20 years, you need to start with ~$260k.
> 
> So to get there privately you need 20 years of 30% return pa. That's why rich traders are by definition outliers.
> 
> Aim a bit lower like starting with $25k @ 25 yrs old and compounding at 15% after tax while keeping a primary income, you get just under $823k by the time you are 50yrs.
> 
> And if you want to supercharge this, you need to be trading other people's money.




Thanks for this post skc - makes perfect sense, I may have overlooked the starting capital and extreme returns required to fund that lifestyle. I am currently 25 and your example is a good one, time to get back to the books.

Cheers


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## prawn_86

And just a note on SKC's post; it is damn hard to make those amounts year in year out


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## Steve C

prawn_86 said:


> And just a note on SKC's post; it is damn hard to make those amounts year in year out




Another way of asking this question - Is the hard work, constant reading, research and risk required to trade profitably worth all the effort or are the other avenues proven less time consuming and more beneficial (buy a few investment property's etc)


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## young-gun

Steve C said:


> Thanks for this post skc - makes perfect sense, I may have overlooked the starting capital and extreme returns required to fund that lifestyle. I am currently 25 and your example is a good one, time to get back to the books.
> 
> Cheers




Your around my age, why don't you jsut get a little bit of cash, and then go for it. Trade risky and very aggressively while we're young, and can afford to. It's what I am about to start doing in the next couple of months, just saving a bit more cash.

No need to bring it back a few pegs, why hold yourself back from what you truly desire? Fast cars big houses etc. Never mind if anyone here has made the money for such luxuries(which I'm sure a few have, but simply don't brag about it or even discuss it) on the market, the fact is it's possible, you just need to find how it's possible.



prawn_86 said:


> And just a note on SKC's post; it is damn hard to make those amounts year in year out




You certainly wont make it pumping 100k into bhp or a blue chip and sitting and watching a few measly dividends flow in. There are plenty of people out there making a sh!teload of cash each year. Even in depressed and falling markets, with all the derivatives and options and indices that can be traded there is ample opportunity.


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## young-gun

Steve C said:


> Another way of asking this question - Is the hard work, constant reading, research and risk required to trade profitably worth all the effort of are the other avenues proven less time consuming and more beneficial (investment property's etc)




You won't see the sort of returns in short time periods in IP's as you would in the market, mind you, you don't see the harsh losses either Property is in a bad way at the moment, I'm personally staying well clear of it.


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## Steve C

young-gun said:


> Your around my age, why don't you jsut get a little bit of cash, and then go for it. Trade risky and very aggressively while we're young, and can afford to. It's what I am about to start doing in the next couple of months, just saving a bit more cash.
> 
> No need to bring it back a few pegs, why hold yourself back from what you truly desire? Fast cars big houses etc. Never mind if anyone here has made the money for such luxuries(which I'm sure a few have, but simply don't brag about it or even discuss it) on the market, the fact is it's possible, you just need to find how it's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> You certainly wont make it pumping 100k into bhp or a blue chip and sitting and watching a few measly dividends flow in. There are plenty of people out there making a sh!teload of cash each year. Even in depressed and falling markets, with all the derivatives and options and indices that can be traded there is ample opportunity.




Great post - cheers mate, I guess the main difference for me is I now have a mortgage so free capital is even more limited, I guess it's better to play with 3k and lose it all then 20k with my current level of knowledge though.

Happy trading!


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## boofis

Steve C said:


> Great post - cheers mate, I guess the main difference for me is I now have a mortgage so free capital is even more limited, I guess it's better to play with 3k and lose it all then 20k with my current level of knowledge though.
> 
> Happy trading!




You are correct on one thing; lose as little as possible while you are beginner. This is a world of professionals and anyone will gladly put their hand up to take your starting capital. Learn before you lose anything and you will be far better off in the long run (which is what you're after anyway!)


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## StumpyPhantom

Steve C said:


> Another way of asking this question - Is the hard work, constant reading, research and risk required to trade profitably worth all the effort or are the other avenues proven less time consuming and more beneficial (buy a few investment property's etc)




A good quesion to be asking, Steve C.  And the knowledgeable people on ASF are probably the right ones to be asking it.

Most people must dream about the big 'strike', otherwise those Lotto tickets would never sell.

I read a news article a while back about all those 'penny dreadful' stocks that are now worth mega-bucks because they were lucky enough to dig the right hole in the ground (wish I'd bought Buru Energy when I first came across it).

Problem is, there are so many of them that you could spread yourself pretty thin before one of them did something for you.

I know of a (unnamed) business that did some work for this company who didn't have the money to pay them but issued them with hundreds of thousands of their penny dreadful stock.  Then the mining boom happened...the rest is history.


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## trillionaire#1

Protecting capital is my key now,but im a long way from rich.
when starting to trade i treated stocks as pets and held them in the believe that my research was right
and the market was wrong,the price would turn around eventually.....


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## Steve C

trillionaire#1 said:


> im a long way from rich.




don't be modest, you're a trillionaire


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## notting

young-gun said:


> There are plenty of people out there making a sh!teload of cash each year. Even in depressed and falling markets.




Yep their sitting on boards, and running blue chips going nowhere on massive socially reprehensible salaries that are funded  by suckers swallowing hear say comments like - the above.  When they get caught cheating they resign with dignity and the institution they ran gets a big fine. They then pop up 6 months later on another board with another theiving salarie do it all again. 
Then there's those who can sift the trend when it's there.


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## young-gun

notting said:


> Yep their sitting on boards, and running blue chips going nowhere on massive socially reprehensible salaries that are funded  by suckers swallowing hear say comments like - the above.




ok.


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## trillionaire#1

Steve C said:


> don't be modest, you're a trillionaire




Yes its true,but only steady and sound investing will make me a :Zillionaire


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## tech/a

$328 k 2003 - 2007 
All documented on Radges  " The Chartist " under
The Techtrader thread.

I know Sir O pulled $300 k in one trade because it cost
Me $500 to Joe to find out !

To trade and make 250k particularly in this market you need to be very very good at it.
I don't trade full-time --- don't want to and don't have to.
In a bull market such as the period 2001- 2008
You could do it with around $100k with a compounding system returning 30 % ish.leveraged with margin
But 750k with nothing more than a 30 % return on a discretionary method ( stocks )

Trading 5 - 10 futures contracts you'll need around 100 k ish depending on what your trading --- but that is way way way in the future.


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## Steve C

tech/a said:


> $328 k 2003 - 2007
> All documented on Radges  " The Chartist " under
> The Techtrader thread.
> 
> I know Sir O pulled $300 k in one trade because it cost
> Me $500 to Joe to find out !
> 
> To trade and make 250k particularly in this market you need to be very very good at it.
> I don't trade full-time --- don't want to and don't have to.
> In a bull market such as the period 2001- 2008
> You could do it with around $100k with a compounding system returning 30 % ish.leveraged with margin
> But 750k with nothing more than a 30 % return on a discretionary method ( stocks )
> 
> Trading 5 - 10 futures contracts you'll need around 100 k ish depending on what your trading --- but that is way way way in the future.




Thanks Tech - I had a feeling you were one of the "profitable" ones - please excuse the ignorance in my question but is "techtrader" a system of trading? I can't find much on google.


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## young-gun

Steve C said:


> Thanks Tech - I had a feeling you were one of the "profitable" ones - please excuse the ignorance in my question but is "techtrader" a system of trading? I can't find much on google.




I think he means this:

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=982&highlight=techtrader


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## tech/a

Techtrader is also in Radges book " Unholy Grails "
Pages 103 to 107 from memory.
Not the best system in the world but did the job.


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## bullet21

tech/a said:


> Techtrader is also in Radges book " Unholy Grails "
> Pages 103 to 107 from memory.
> Not the best system in the world but did the job.




just started this book today, read Adaptive Analysis a while ago as well. Look forward to seeing what it has to offer.


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## Julia

StumpyPhantom said:


> A good quesion to be asking, Steve C.  And the knowledgeable people on ASF are probably the right ones to be asking it.
> 
> Most people must dream about the big 'strike', otherwise those Lotto tickets would never sell.



It would be interesting to know what proportion of the population actually buy these.  I've never bought one in my life.  The odds are dreadful.



> I read a news article a while back about all those 'penny dreadful' stocks that are now worth mega-bucks because they were lucky enough to dig the right hole in the ground



Maybe remember that for every one that turns out to be a raging success there are probably a dozen or more which will lose your money.







tech/a said:


> To trade and make 250k particularly in this market you need to be very very good at it.
> I don't trade full-time --- don't want to and don't have to.
> In a bull market such as the period 2001- 2008
> You could do it with around $100k with a compounding system returning 30 % ish.leveraged with margin



Even without margin, you could double your money at least annually for many of those years.


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## Julia

prawn_86 said:


> I can only think of 1 ASF member that *may* fit that category.



Would you necessarily know?   Most people don't divulge their level of affluence or otherwise. 



Steve C said:


> Great post - cheers mate, I guess the main difference for me is I now have a mortgage so free capital is even more limited, I guess it's better to play with 3k and lose it all then 20k with my current level of knowledge though.
> 
> Happy trading!



Good luck with achieving the sort of goals outlined in your initial post if you're 'playing with $3K'.
Ditto $20K.
Just imo of course.


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## springhill

Julia said:


> Maybe remember that for every one that turns out to be a raging success there are probably a dozen or more which will lose your money.




I wish the odds were that good!


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## prawn_86

Julia said:


> Would you necessarily know?   Most people don't divulge their level of affluence or otherwise.




Nope, no idea. But as i said, i can only think of 1 that may fit the category. There may be many more (or none)


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## springhill

This is pure speculation, but YOUNG TRADER was really active here while the boom times were huge, and found alot of specs that did really well.
What happened to him? I enjoyed reading his posts.


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## CanOz

springhill said:


> This is pure speculation, but YOUNG TRADER....




No pun intended hey Springhill!!

YT was a good speculator indeed. I recall he returned for a while and then left again. Good fella...

CanOz


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## skc

Julia said:


> It would be interesting to know what proportion of the population actually buy these.  I've never bought one in my life.  The odds are dreadful.




What you are buying is not the probability of winning. You are buying the hope of winning which lasts somewhere between 2 hours to a week (should you buy earlier). Cheap thrills really.

Lottery has been called taxation on the poor for this reason.

As to people wielding $20k and hoping to make it rich... the odds are probably better than lotto on paper when you look at the rise in share price. But I bet you most people with only $20k will not be able to hold their position 'till $10m. They will sell at $5k profit and proceed to chase another lotto stock and lose in the longer term. 

The proverbial "bottom draw" stock usually refers to those which the share price has crashed, as opposed to one that has gone up 500% but with another 20x to run.


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## Judd

It all depends.  Some have a very uncomplicated life and are quite happy on, say, $30k-$35k.  For others $250k will not sate their wants.

I neither know nor care about them in that regard.  I am content with my situation.


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## craft

I consider myself financial secure and independent as a result of investing. Only average jobs up to the age of 30ish when I started to concentrate fully on investing/trading.  Not sure exactly how much was saved from jobs and what was investment return in the early days. I saved hard from salaries and I retained all investment earnings to build the capital base initially. 

Yearly cash flow now is greater than the capital I went full time with. 

I have not invested other people’s money and I have received no gifts or inheritance, I have no investments apart from personal property outside of share. – being where I am is a result of saving hard initially and hitching those savings long term to quality companies and reinvesting the dividend stream.  A big help was the ability to live of a second wage in our family until the income stream from investing become big enough to sustain those expenses.
No sports car. Compounding is Key and the future cost of a sports car is unjustifiable to me. (Obviously I’m not rich enough yet)

So there you go – My story so far is financial freedom at least is possible at a reasonable age. Preparing this response to your question makes me feel like I have an ego problem but how else do I convey the message? Given the difficulty in answering the question I doubt you will get a lot of affirmative responses to your question if there are successful investors here. If my level of disillusionment with forums is representative then they are probably transient contributors at best.

I think the amount of hours and level of dedication I have put into investing should have made me successful if directed towards most other careers, so investing is not a windfall way to make big money with no effort. I just chose investing because its what I liked and what seemed to come most natural to me.  Looking forward, Investing is very scalable and compounding is powerful but the risks are real. My desire to continue investing is undiminished so my  story is unfinished and the ending is uncertain.


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## springhill

Judd said:


> It all depends.  Some have a very uncomplicated life and are quite happy on, say, $30k-$35k.  For others $250k will not sate their wants.
> 
> I neither know nor care about them in that regard.  I am content with my situation.




You are only happy when you are giving someone the old "chicken wing" hey Juddy


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## Steve C

craft said:


> I consider myself financial secure and independent as a result of investing. Only average jobs up to the age of 30ish when I started to concentrate fully on investing/trading.  Not sure exactly how much was saved from jobs and what was investment return in the early days. I saved hard from salaries and I retained all investment earnings to build the capital base initially.
> 
> Yearly cash flow now is greater than the capital I went full time with.
> 
> I have not invested other people’s money and I have received no gifts or inheritance, I have no investments apart from personal property outside of share. – being where I am is a result of saving hard initially and hitching those savings long term to quality companies and reinvesting the dividend stream.  A big help was the ability to live of a second wage in our family until the income stream from investing become big enough to sustain those expenses.
> No sports car. Compounding is Key and the future cost of a sports car is unjustifiable to me. (Obviously I’m not rich enough yet)
> 
> So there you go – My story so far is financial freedom at least is possible at a reasonable age. Preparing this response to your question makes me feel like I have an ego problem but how else do I convey the message? Given the difficulty in answering the question I doubt you will get a lot of affirmative responses to your question if there are successful investors here. If my level of disillusionment with forums is representative then they are probably transient contributors at best.
> 
> I think the amount of hours and level of dedication I have put into investing should have made me successful if directed towards most other careers, so investing is not a windfall way to make big money with no effort. I just chose investing because its what I liked and what seemed to come most natural to me.  Looking forward, Investing is very scalable and compounding is powerful but the risks are real. My desire to continue investing is undiminished so my  story is unfinished and the ending is uncertain.




Thanks for sharing the above craft - so your strategy was more long term investement's rather then "trading" as such?


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## Judd

springhill said:


> You are only happy when you are giving someone the old "chicken wing" hey Juddy




Yep.  Marinated for two hours in a soy, honey, grated ginger, crushed garlic and sesame seed sauce.  Baked in oven until cooked and then served on a bed of Asian salad.  Delicious.


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## skc

craft said:


> I consider myself financial secure and independent as a result of investing. Only average jobs up to the age of 30ish when I started to concentrate fully on investing/trading.  Not sure exactly how much was saved from jobs and what was investment return in the early days. I saved hard from salaries and I retained all investment earnings to build the capital base initially.
> 
> Yearly cash flow now is greater than the capital I went full time with..




Without wanting to know your age... how many years did it take take to achieve this?



Judd said:


> Yep.  Marinated for two hours in a soy, honey, grated ginger, crushed garlic and sesame seed sauce.  Baked in oven until cooked and then served on a bed of Asian salad.  Delicious.




Add in the rinds of lemon for some zest.


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## craft

Steve C said:


> Thanks for sharing the above craft - so your strategy was more long term investement's rather then "trading" as such?




I’m not sure nor care where the differentiation between trading and investing officially sits. But my focus is the difference between what I perceive the value of the business to be and the price. Concentrating solely on the price action is not my thing. 

So you can call it investing if you wish and long term is my objective but I don't get to dictate that either.


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## craft

skc said:


> Without wanting to know your age... how many years did it take take to achieve this?




10 years investing/saving.

10 Years full time concentrating on lifting the return, as that provided more long term bang/time then continuing with a wage.

It's only in recent years that the investment returns have been asked to cover living expenses. The second wage in the family was important to let me initially concentrate full time on investing. 

I'm 41


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## Klogg

craft said:


> 10 years investing/saving.
> 
> 10 Years full time concentrating on lifting the return, as that provided more long term bang/time then continuing with a wage.
> 
> It's only in recent years that the investment returns have been asked to cover living expenses. The second wage in the family was important to let me initially concentrate full time on investing.
> 
> I'm 41




That is extremely impressive - hats off to you, sir.


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## Ves

craft said:


> 10 years investing/saving.
> 
> 10 Years full time concentrating on lifting the return, as that provided more long term bang/time then continuing with a wage.
> 
> It's only in recent years that the investment returns have been asked to cover living expenses. The second wage in the family was important to let me initially concentrate full time on investing.
> 
> I'm 41



I get the impression from talking to people such as yourself (and others in other types of investing such as property) that most of people who become successful in their chosen field of investing started through their own savings (and continued to pump these into their ventures even after they invested their first lump sum). They don't spend the profits either.  This is where long-term focus, discipline and temperament become infinitely important.

I think the lightbulb moment for my chosen strategy was a person (who I cannot recall) saying that there is a big diffference between doubling your capital and doubling your income.  Different people will prefer the former (possibly the majority), but I think it is easier to leverage your lifestyle through replacing your salary or wage with a sustainable income source through investment than it is to "strike it rich" through massive gains.


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## Trembling Hand

craft said:


> It's only in recent years that the investment returns have been asked to cover living expenses. The second wage in the family was important to let me initially concentrate full time on investing.




Completely and utterly underestimated the HUGE drag on returns having to pay tax and living expenses. The only people who don't understand that drag seems to be the ones who never get in the position.

I suspect thats why you see so few full-time long-term traders. Its all very well taking 200K - 500K out of the market one year but by the time you take out 30% tax (infact more because you have to extract that from a company and pay personal tax). Increase your livestlye a bit ( go ahead take 500K and see what you "need") then go bang up against a changed market and take a drawdown which will probably happen every 3-4 years. All of a sudden 500K in a good year is not nearly enough. And I say that with a straight face.


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## Gringotts Bank

Steve C said:


> I guess the point of my thread is to align my goal with reality, and to see if many people on here have managed to become wealthy by trading.
> 
> Steve




Your question is a very important one to ask.  Probably the most important question a new trader could ask, imo.

Of the very wealthy people I've met (multi's), none are the type who would tell even their close friends how well they are doing.  They are quite low key people.  They are also not likely to be the sort of personality that would post on a public forum - it wouldn't even occur to them to do so.  So you might be asking in the wrong place, or you might be in the right place but asking a question that a very successful person is unlikely to answer.  My sample size is probably about 10, so it's not huge - keep that in mind.    

A possible short term solution is to buy a system and trade it yourself.  In other words, buy someone else's expertise.  Keep in mind that you need verified broker reports and statistics over at least a year from the system builder himself.  Be very careful about whom to trust.  There are half a dozen websites that track performance of various systems for verification purposes.  here is one such site: http://www.timertrac.com/Public/Default.asp


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## skc

Trembling Hand said:


> Completely and utterly underestimated the HUGE drag on returns having to pay tax and living expenses. The only people who don't understand that drag seems to be the ones who never get in the position.




To be successful against the odds you need a few planets aligned. Having a dependable second income in the family and a good tax accountant are all part of the equation.


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## odds-on

Not yet! Strongly recommend the following book. Profiles of a dozen successful private investors.

http://www.amazon.com/Free-Capital-private-investors-millions/dp/1906659745

The author quite rightly points out these “average joe” investors are actually extraordinary, think about it.

Depending on how much control you believe you have over the future and your willingness to accept that it could all go wrong thus requiring you to restart again, you are probably on balance of probablities best putting all your spare money into a handful of "speccy" stocks. No leverage. Spend the rest of your time earning overtime/increase your earning capability.


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## Steve C

odds-on said:


> Not yet! Strongly recommend the following book. Profiles of a dozen successful private investors.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Free-Capital-private-investors-millions/dp/1906659745
> 
> The author quite rightly points out these “average joe” investors are actually extraordinary, think about it.
> 
> Depending on how much control you believe you have over the future and your willingness to accept that it could all go wrong thus requiring you to restart again, you are probably on balance of probablities best putting all your spare money into a handful of "speccy" stocks. No leverage. Spend the rest of your time earning overtime/increase your earning capability.




Sounds like a good read - I will order it, funny you mention overtime I am thinking about getting a job somewhere on a Saturday purely to add additional funds into my trading account.


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## Julia

craft said:


> I consider myself financial secure and independent as a result of investing.



I'd suggest the initial question should be adjusted to include any form of investing, rather than just trading.
Reason?  Markets are cyclical.  The only way I made real money from the stock market was because I started with a decent amount that had been derived from real estate over some years of high inflation and high capital gains.

If you're starting out with a capital of, say, $20K, you're going to have to be way more talented than I am to turn that into the sort of wealth you have suggested you want just from 'trading'.



> I saved hard from salaries and I retained all investment earnings to build the capital base initially.



So from the start, craft, you were disciplined and determined.  Important imo.



> A big help was the ability to live of a second wage in our family until the income stream from investing become big enough to sustain those expenses.



Sure.  I can tell you it's a bit harder to do it when you have to generate everyday living expenses from your profits.


> No sports car. Compounding is Key and the future cost of a sports car is unjustifiable to me. (Obviously I’m not rich enough yet)



Having had various sports cars, could I suggest the thrill is decidedly overrated.  



> So there you go – My story so far is financial freedom at least is possible at a reasonable age. Preparing this response to your question makes me feel like I have an ego problem but how else do I convey the message?



Not at all.  You have generously chosen to actually answer the question in some detail, something I'm a bit less willing to do, as I suspect will be some others.



> Given the difficulty in answering the question I doubt you will get a lot of affirmative responses to your question if there are successful investors here. If my level of disillusionment with forums is representative then they are probably transient contributors at best.



I understand your disenchantment.  It was not always so.  There used to be some first class exchange of ideas without the petty squabbling that occurs so much now.



> I think the amount of hours and level of dedication I have put into investing should have made me successful if directed towards most other careers, so investing is not a windfall way to make big money with no effort.



Plus your self discipline and having a long term target.




Ves said:


> I get the impression from talking to people such as yourself (and others in other types of investing such as property) that most of people who become successful in their chosen field of investing started through their own savings (and continued to pump these into their ventures even after they invested their first lump sum). They don't spend the profits either.  This is where long-term focus, discipline and temperament become infinitely important.



Exactly.  I know I spend probably less than many people who are actually not financially self-sufficient.
I feel no compulsion to have the latest model of everything.   



Trembling Hand said:


> Completely and utterly underestimated the HUGE drag on returns having to pay tax and living expenses. The only people who don't understand that drag seems to be the ones who never get in the position.



+1.


----------



## burglar

Tech/a has introduced me to a book "Master the Markets" by Tom Williams
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13804&p=375372&viewfull=1#post375372

I have been reading for three nights and am now officially "sleep deprived".
(Nothing I say will make sense.)

It has opened my eyes to the world of trading.
It explains so much which has bewildered me in the past.


I won't join in trading ... methinks!
But I am thankful for the lightbulb moment.








skc said:


> ... Add in the rinds of lemon for some zest.




If you don't have lemons you can use zest instead. 

Sorry, couldn't help myself!


----------



## skc

burglar said:


> If you don't have lemons you can use zest instead.
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help myself!




Zest in this context refers to "A quality of excitement and piquancy."


----------



## Steve C

burglar said:


> Tech/a has introduced me to a book "Master the Markets" by Tom Williams
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13804&p=375372&viewfull=1#post375372
> 
> I have been reading for three nights and am now officially "sleep deprived".
> (Nothing I say will make sense.)
> 
> It has opened my eyes to the world of trading.
> It explains so much which has bewildered me in the past.




Thanks for the PDF burglar - I have just downloaded it, looks like it covers some great material. Is this something that a beginner could find valuable or more for the technical analysis experts?


----------



## sammy84

I have been trading in some capacity since 2008. Haven't made a huge amount in that time but haven't lost either. Time in the market is important to me. Only 4 years in what is a very long journey. I'll come back to this thread in 6 years time


----------



## young-gun

Ves said:


> started through their own savings (and continued to pump these into their ventures even after they invested their first lump sum). They don't spend the profits either.  This is where long-term focus, discipline and temperament become infinitely important.




This is possibly the most important step of all imo. Continuously reinvesting every cent you get be it savings, dividends, loose change etc, and make it work for you. Always continue to build on the asset base.


----------



## young-gun

Julia said:


> It would be interesting to know what proportion of the population actually buy these.  I've never bought one in my life.  The odds are dreadful.




The odds or far far worse if you don't have a ticket at all


----------



## jersey10

young-gun said:


> The odds or far far worse if you don't have a ticket at all




Actually, the odds are only very slightly worse if you don't have a ticket at all.


----------



## burglar

jersey10 said:


> Actually, the odds are only very slightly worse if you don't have a ticket at all.




And you retain the price of admission!


----------



## young-gun

jersey10 said:


> Actually, the odds are only very slightly worse if you don't have a ticket at all.




must you get technical on me?


----------



## Ves

craft said:


> I think the amount of hours and level of dedication I have put into investing should have made me successful if directed towards most other careers, so investing is not a windfall way to make big money with no effort. I just chose investing because its what I liked and what seemed to come most natural to me.  Looking forward, Investing is very scalable and compounding is powerful but the risks are real. My desire to continue investing is undiminished so my  story is unfinished and the ending is uncertain.



Outside of personal enjoyment, did you find that you hit a point where there were diminishing returns from educating yourself?  Or is it truly a lifelong learning process as some say?  I seem to be progressing quite well in my own learning, but I feel as if I must have to take a step backwards sooner or later...


----------



## Sir Osisofliver

Steve C said:


> Hi All,
> 
> With all the scams and spruikers around promising the lifestyles we all dream of, I am legitimately wondering can anyone on here say they have made themselves rich or wealthy by trading (or know someone who has). My definition of rich would be enough capital to have no financial stresses, travel the world, buy that Porsche or Ferrari and live in a million dollar + home and I don't mean people that trade a bit and also earn $250 000 a year from their work income.




Hi Steve

Define "Rich" and "Wealthy". ATO defines wealthy as in control or direct ownership of $30M....I'm not there...yet  

I would consider myself "rich", but it's not the amount of gold in the vault that determines this feeling. What makes me feel rich is my family, and those I choose to surround myself with. I don't consider life to be a competition where he who has the most money wins. You can't take it with you after all. So for me it's not about the money, that's just a way of keeping score and frankly I'm not interested in pissing competitions. It's about what the money allows you to do. Money is only important when you don't have any. Money does not equal happiness. Find out what makes you happy. 







> My goal  over the next few years is to learn, save and invest as much as possible and use trading as a vehicle to fund a financial stress free lifestyle by the time I am 40 - 50, hey while I am at it go on lots of holidays, drive a supercar (or if that is to unrealistic, an M3, C63 AMG) etc.
> 
> I guess the point of my thread is to align my goal with reality, and to see if many people on here have managed to become wealthy by trading.
> 
> Steve




Try and be flexible. There's been a number of survey things here in ASF and I always find that I can't answer them completely. I'm a trader...but also a long-term investor. I have a salary...but I'm a shareholder of the company I work for. I invest in property...and commercial property... I've traded Bonds etc etc etc. So my skill sets are...wide.  I wouldn't consider myself a gun in any of them - but I do tend to focus on the sharemarket because it's a challenge I enjoy. The important thing is *why* not necessarily how - you can buy how when you need to if you don't know it. 

Hopefully what you'll discover and learn to recognize is that there is a time to invest in the share market....and a *bloody great* time to invest in the share market.  That there is a time to trade....and a *bloody great* time to trade. There's a time to invest in residential property...and a *bloody great* time to invest in Residential Property.  *Everything* has its cycles and time where you should focus your attention and funds.  There is *always* an asset that is in it's optimal investment period. Learn what, when and *why*.



> Great post - cheers mate, I guess the main difference for me is I now have a mortgage so free capital is even more limited, I guess it's better to play with 3k and lose it all then 20k with my current level of knowledge though.




Steve the way you say the above... I'm guessing you've made the classic mistake... Hell I did it myself until I realized what an idiot thing I did.  I chained myself to a large asset that has an unappealing taxation profile.  You are *much* better off in the long-term if your first property is an IP, not your PPR. You only get a taxation advantage on your PPR if you sell it....in a market that has an average 8 year cycle, you cannot effectively "trade" this asset and compound your returns in the short term. I'd have a couple of IP's under your belt before you go for PPR that's what my girls will be encouraged to do in a few years - because then the IP's help you pay of the non tax deductable interest payments much faster.

If all that sounds like too much hard work.....Marry a rich girl 

Cheers

Sir O


----------



## Timmy

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> Define "Rich"




He has (from opening post) ...



Steve C said:


> *My definition* of rich would be enough capital to have no financial stresses, travel the world, buy that Porsche or Ferrari and live in a million dollar + home and I don't mean people that trade a bit and also earn $250 000 a year from their work income.




link :


----------



## Sir Osisofliver

Timmy said:


> He has (from opening post) ...
> 
> 
> 
> link :




Perhaps he needs a dollar figure rather than just "enough". Otherwise how will he be able to tell if he's on track?

Cheers

Sir O


----------



## tech/a

*You come up with some real gems
Stuff you should etch in your grey matter.
Simple yet complex*

*Here is another*



> Hopefully what you'll discover and learn to recognize is that there is a time to invest in the share market....and a *bloody great *time to invest in the share market. That there is a time to trade....and a bloody great time to trade. There's a time to invest in residential property...and a *bloody great *time to invest in Residential Property.* Everything *has its cycles and time where you should focus your attention and funds. There is *always* an asset that is in it's optimal investment period. Learn what, when and *why*.


----------



## young-gun

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Perhaps he needs a dollar figure rather than just "enough". Otherwise how will he be able to tell if he's on track?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Sir O




Indeed. Steve for me personally my aim is retired by 45 and 30 mill by the time i'm 50. And no I am most certainly not joking. This will allow me to achieve everything I could ever dream of and provide my wife and future family with what I believe they will deserve. Majority will laugh at such a goal, they laugh because they cannot understand how such a goal can be achieved. 

Work out exactly what it is in life you desire, find out how much that is gonna cost, and don't stop until you find your way there. It really is that simple, and I'll show you


----------



## boofis

young-gun said:


> ... It really is that simple, and I'll show you




Regardless of your end goal, if your post from the first page remains true in that you haven't invested yet but are going to invest aggressively in derivatives in the next few months when you get more capital, I feel that attitude will change. Though I do share a common goal so keep at it.


----------



## young-gun

boofis said:


> Regardless of your end goal, if your post from the first page remains true in that you haven't invested yet but are going to invest aggressively in derivatives in the next few months when you get more capital, I feel that attitude will change. Though I do share a common goal so keep at it.




It's hard to explain but alot has changed in just a couple of days, my thought process included. I've got a path that will see me there. I have invested previously, but was wrong in almost everything I did.

There is one thing I am certain of, and that is my attitude will not change, and I will get to where I want to be.


----------



## Steve C

Good luck young-gun, I sincerely hope that you achieve your goal (feel free to PM me your plan and strategy if you are willing to share ideas)

Sir O- thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, I completely agree with you. One problem with the PPR/IP scenario, I am about to get married so living seprately at our parents houses whilst renting out the house we have just built isn't really appropriate (although it would make perfect financial sense).

Thus I am dedicating my time to learning everything there is about the stockmarket and using it is a vehicle to create additional income. My job is related and allows me to almost research whilst working and I am also about to start a Grad Dip App Fin so the wheels are in motion.


----------



## skc

young-gun said:


> There is one thing I am certain of, and that is my attitude will not change, and I will get to where I want to be.




Don't be so sure. The marginal utility between having $10m and $30m is actually pretty small for most people.

The first $million matters a lot. Then you aim for $5m. Keep doing what you are doing you'd easily get $10m. Anything beyond that you have to ask - why not just stop and smell the roses a bit.


----------



## Steve C

skc said:


> Don't be so sure. The marginal utility between having $10m and $30m is actually pretty small for most people.
> 
> The first $million matters a lot. Then you aim for $5m. Keep doing what you are doing you'd easily get $10m. Anything beyond that you have to ask - why not just stop and smell the roses a bit.




Personally I would be more than happy to stop at $10m. Start really enjoying life, travel the world, race fast cars, spend plenty of quality time with the wife.... oh isn't it just great to dream


----------



## tech/a

You'll find you will alter your perspective.
Friends lost their son a few years ago money didn't help.

Last Xmas they thought my princess had terminal liver cancer.
She didn't ---- $30 million right there!
Don't have 30 mill ----- have a few ----- but have a completely
Different perspective than I did when younger.

Never aimed at riches just travelled the road.


----------



## young-gun

tech/a said:


> Last Xmas they thought my princess had terminal liver cancer.
> She didn't ---- $30 million right there!




Great to hear tech. Some things are without a doubt priceless.



Steve C said:


> Personally I would be more than happy to stop at $10m. Start really enjoying life, travel the world, race fast cars, spend plenty of quality time with the wife.... oh isn't it just great to dream




You are the only person that stands between the dream and the reality, that is the simplicity of it. I'll pm ya later but can assure you there is nothing secret or ground breaking behind my new plan.



skc said:


> Don't be so sure. The marginal utility between having $10m and $30m is actually pretty small for most people.
> 
> The first $million matters a lot. Then you aim for $5m. Keep doing what you are doing you'd easily get $10m. Anything beyond that you have to ask - why not just stop and smell the roses a bit.




The difference increases as time does. A million dollars 26 years ago I'm sure was considered a huge amount of money. Although today I still consider $1 million alot of money It does not buy much today, and most certainly does not ensure a lifetime of financial security. Just as I think that in 26 years 10 million may perhaps not be valued as much as we consider it today. It's for that reason I went higher, and I will smell the roses the whole way


----------



## young-gun

tech/a said:


> Never aimed at riches just travelled the road.




But are you not exactly where you placed yourself, tech?


----------



## skc

young-gun said:


> The difference increases as time does. A million dollars 26 years ago I'm sure was considered a huge amount of money. Although today I still consider $1 million alot of money It does not buy much today, and most certainly does not ensure a lifetime of financial security. Just as I think that in 26 years 10 million may perhaps not be valued as much as we consider it today. It's for that reason I went higher, and I will smell the roses the whole way




Sorry my point was made using all today's dollar. It's about marginal utility of money as an economic theory and philosophy. Google it.


----------



## tech/a

young-gun said:


> But are you not exactly where you placed yourself, tech?




Further along than I ever imagined.

You know I never had any expectations.
Just wanted to be happy and not waste a life.
Know many who have.
They just seem to be one train wreck 
After another.


----------



## young-gun

skc said:


> Sorry my point was made using all today's dollar. It's about marginal utility of money as an economic theory and philosophy. Google it.




ah ok, not familiar with it, just checking it out now.


----------



## pavilion103

tech/a said:


> You'll find you will alter your perspective.
> Friends lost their son a few years ago money didn't help.
> 
> Last Xmas they thought my princess had terminal liver cancer.
> She didn't ---- $30 million right there!
> Don't have 30 mill ----- have a few ----- but have a completely
> Different perspective than I did when younger.
> 
> Never aimed at riches just travelled the road.




Love it Tech


----------



## pavilion103

When I was 18 I wanted to be a billionaire. 
When I was 20 I realised it would take ridiculous work (with good fortune) that would take up my whole life without it still being likely
When I was 22 I had a few investment properties and wanted a net worth of about $50-100M. 
When I was 24 I thought: 
1) crap, I'd better sell those properties (which I now have) AND 
2) I really don't like working 8:30-5:30 in a job which isn't my passion. My main financial goal will revolve around freeing up as much time as possible. 

Now I am 26 and work as a property valuer in the government. It is perfect for me. Flexible hours, finish at 4pm, autonomous, drive around a few hours a day, no stress. Plenty of time to come home and work on my trading at nights. I've spent just over 1,000 (18 months) on a system and am looking at getting stuck into it in about 1 month.

My main financial goal is to build up more and more savings, make more and more trading, and eventually be able to scale back to 3 days a week or work and then free myself all together if I wish. 

It is interesting how my primary financial goal has gone from quantity of money to quantity of time.  

I have no doubt I can get to $10 million. I don't know when but I know I will. I could get to more if I was committed to doing so, but the truth is that I am not. I agree that the marginal utility of much more isn't worth the time invested to do so!


----------



## Sir Osisofliver

Steve C said:


> Good luck young-gun, I sincerely hope that you achieve your goal (feel free to PM me your plan and strategy if you are willing to share ideas)
> 
> Sir O- thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, I completely agree with you. One problem with the PPR/IP scenario, I am about to get married so living seprately at our parents houses whilst renting out the house we have just built isn't really appropriate (although it would make perfect financial sense).
> 
> Thus I am dedicating my time to learning everything there is about the stockmarket and using it is a vehicle to create additional income. My job is related and allows me to almost research whilst working and I am also about to start a Grad Dip App Fin so the wheels are in motion.




Steve - Congratulations. I hope you and your wife live a long happy life together. Remember that bit about knowing the why, not necessarily the how? You've stated the why "makes perfect sense", yet what you can't see is the how. How do you have that very large (but ultimately unattractive) asset work for you rather than against you. This is where the reality of company and trust structures can help you. 

INSERT MASSIVE NON ADVICE DISCLAIMER HERE. Go speak to a professional trust lawyer. DYOR
You may be able to live in your newly built house *as a tenant.* 

Here's a tip for free. If the house is less than 10 years old - pay the $500 to have a quantity surveyor check the place out. You can then put a depreciation schedule against the house and get on average 1% of the house value as a tax deduction in addition to the interest deduction.

Cheers

Sir O


----------



## jersey10

pavilion103 said:


> When I was 18 I wanted to be a billionaire.
> When I was 20 I realised it would take ridiculous work (with good fortune) that would take up my whole life without it still being likely
> When I was 22 I had a few investment properties and wanted a net worth of about $50-100M.
> When I was 24 I thought:
> 1) crap, I'd better sell those properties (which I now have) AND
> 2) I really don't like working 8:30-5:30 in a job which isn't my passion. My main financial goal will revolve around freeing up as much time as possible.
> 
> Now I am 26 and work as a property valuer in the government. It is perfect for me. Flexible hours, finish at 4pm, autonomous, drive around a few hours a day, no stress. Plenty of time to come home and work on my trading at nights. I've spent just over 1,000 (18 months) on a system and am looking at getting stuck into it in about 1 month.
> 
> My main financial goal is to build up more and more savings, make more and more trading, and eventually be able to scale back to 3 days a week or work and then free myself all together if I wish.
> 
> It is interesting how my primary financial goal has gone from quantity of money to quantity of time.
> 
> I have no doubt I can get to $10 million. I don't know when but I know I will. I could get to more if I was committed to doing so, but the truth is that I am not. I agree that the marginal utility of much more isn't worth the time invested to do so!




I concur.  One thing you can never buy, no matter how much money you have, is time.  If you're smart you can (eventually) structure things so your wealth generating vehicles are operated by other people.  This creates time for you to do what you enjoy (which may include some sort of "work" - the best type).


----------



## Steve C

Sir Osisofliver said:


> Steve - Congratulations. I hope you and your wife live a long happy life together. Remember that bit about knowing the why, not necessarily the how? You've stated the why "makes perfect sense", yet what you can't see is the how. How do you have that very large (but ultimately unattractive) asset work for you rather than against you. This is where the reality of company and trust structures can help you.
> 
> INSERT MASSIVE NON ADVICE DISCLAIMER HERE. Go speak to a professional trust lawyer. DYOR
> You may be able to live in your newly built house *as a tenant.*
> 
> Here's a tip for free. If the house is less than 10 years old - pay the $500 to have a quantity surveyor check the place out. You can then put a depreciation schedule against the house and get on average 1% of the house value as a tax deduction in addition to the interest deduction.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Sir O




Thank you so much for that Sir O, when I read contributions like the above from such knowledgable people I realise how much I have to learn! 

Great insights and advice like this is the reason this is my new favourite forum and basically my homepage at work. Thanks everyone


----------



## Julia

young-gun said:


> Indeed. Steve for me personally my aim is retired by 45 and 30 mill by the time i'm 50. And no I am most certainly not joking. This will allow me to achieve everything I could ever dream of and provide my wife and future family with what I believe they will deserve. Majority will laugh at such a goal, they laugh because they cannot understand how such a goal can be achieved.
> 
> Work out exactly what it is in life you desire, find out how much that is gonna cost, and don't stop until you find your way there. It really is that simple, and I'll show you



Really?   When?

It's good to have something to aspire to.  However, I would question whether it should all relate to money.
Might be worth asking how many people who have won large amounts in Lotto etc never seem able to hold on to it.

Could those of you who seem to see 30 million as some sort of magic figure outline what your life will be like when you get there?
What is it that you don't have now that that magic amount of money will buy you?
What satisfaction will you derive from that supa large house?
How long will the thrill from the Maserati last?

This post will undoubtedly be seen by you bulletproof young people, yet to experience much of the real world with all its unexpected failure and tragedy, as miserably pessimistic.
However, I've lived the ultra rich lifestyle with the sports cars lined up outside, the house others envied, and I can tell you it's all superficial and entirely unimportant when compared with finding joyful relationships, contributing to your community, and feeling a simple sense of being OK with your inner self.


----------



## Ves

Sir Osisofliver said:


> INSERT MASSIVE NON ADVICE DISCLAIMER HERE. Go speak to a professional trust lawyer. DYOR
> You may be able to live in your newly built house *as a tenant.*



How would explain to the ATO why division Part IV (A) does not apply in this case?


----------



## rx2

Julia said:


> However, I've lived the ultra rich lifestyle with the sports cars lined up outside, the house others envied, and I can tell you it's all superficial and entirely unimportant when compared with finding joyful relationships, contributing to your community, and feeling a simple sense of being OK with your inner self.




++1


----------



## pavilion103

Julia said:


> This post will undoubtedly be seen by you bulletproof young people, yet to experience much of the real world with all its unexpected failure and tragedy, as miserably pessimistic.
> However, I've lived the ultra rich lifestyle with the sports cars lined up outside, the house others envied, and I can tell you it's all superficial and entirely unimportant when compared with finding joyful relationships, contributing to your community, and feeling a simple sense of being OK with your inner self.




A few years back I would have been one of the people looking at this post as someone who didn't understand that anything is possible. Now I see it as a completely true and sensible post. 

The most rewarding thing for me has been my spiritual journey and discovering a deep sense of peace and understanding of myself. After reading many hundreds of books and other materials, as well as a lot of personal reflection, I believe that anyone who does not feel fulfilled as they are now, is unlikely to feel fulfilled no matter how their circumstances change. The people others really admire and are attracted to are those who are happy with themselves as they are and have a deep humility and contentment with them-self.

I am certainly no guru but I'd suggest that if you are truly passionate about trading and have strong mental character then the money will follow. I'm guessing that it's not even the money that matters to most successful traders on here, it's the intellectual gamesmanship!


----------



## Steve C

Ves said:


> How would explain to the ATO why division Part IV (A) does not apply in this case?




Just thinking Sir O wouldnt that mean you also would pay CGT when you sell?


----------



## boofis

Julia said:


> This post will undoubtedly be seen by you bulletproof young people, yet to experience much of the real world with all its unexpected failure and tragedy, as miserably pessimistic.
> However, I've lived the ultra rich lifestyle with the sports cars lined up outside, the house others envied, and I can tell you it's all superficial and entirely unimportant when compared with finding joyful relationships, contributing to your community, and feeling a simple sense of being OK with your inner self.




Thanks for sharing your experience Julia. I'm seeking to NOT do as my parents are doing and work until they die in a job they don't enjoy wishing the whole time (and yet not acting) they didn't have to be in such a situation  My ideal will be when I can enjoy the work I do, have enough for a comfortable living without worrying about expenses/mortgage etc. and can provide some for the people I value.


----------



## Sir Osisofliver

Ves said:


> How would explain to the ATO why division Part IV (A) does not apply in this case?




I'm not a gun trust lawyer but there are differences in trust law depending on what state you live in. It also depends upon what kind of entity sits above the trust that holds the asset. It's about placing an arms length between himself and the asset.

Cheers

Sir O


----------



## Sir Osisofliver

Steve C said:


> Just thinking Sir O wouldnt that mean you also would pay CGT when you sell?




Yes. That's the trade off. Tax deductible interest payments but no CGT benefit. So when are you planning on selling the asset? I hold good quality assets...forever. If its in a trust you can also pass the asset on to your kids with minimal expense. 

As I said do your research though. Set up and ongoing expenses occur with trust and company structures. (but it's a piddling amount compared to the interest saving on the interest deduction)

Cheers

Sir O


----------



## young-gun

Julia said:


> Really?   When?




By the time I'm 50 or sooner.



> It's good to have something to aspire to.  However, I would question whether it should all relate to money.
> Might be worth asking how many people who have won large amounts in Lotto etc never seem able to hold on to it.




The onyl reason I gave my aspirations of great wealth was because it was topic at the time. I have many other aspirations that will trek firmly side by side the accumulation of that wealth. Some of which are already achieved, one major hurdle down to occur in september when I marry the single most amazing girl on the face of this earth



> Could those of you who seem to see 30 million as some sort of magic figure outline what your life will be like when you get there?
> What is it that you don't have now that that magic amount of money will buy you?
> What satisfaction will you derive from that supa large house?
> How long will the thrill from the Maserati last?




My life will be full of wealth and riches in every sense of the words, financial, love, happiness, family, the works. The satisfaction will be knowing that me and the people around me created such a life through hard work and determination. And thankyou for bringing up the maserati, as the Gran Turismo I think will be my proudest purchase when the time comes. I envy you if you have had the luxury of driving one. 

I don't believe money can be enjoyed unless you are truly happy with life itself, as you have pointed out Julia.



> This post will undoubtedly be seen by you bulletproof young people, yet to experience much of the real world with all its unexpected failure and tragedy, as miserably pessimistic.
> However, I've lived the ultra rich lifestyle with the sports cars lined up outside, the house others envied, and I can tell you it's all superficial and entirely unimportant when compared with finding joyful relationships, contributing to your community, and feeling a simple sense of being OK with your inner self.




There is hurdles to pass that's for sure, but can you not imagine having the joyful relationships, contribution to local community, and the same sense of being ok with yourself that you describe, and the money? The two are most certainly compatible, if they are not, then I do not wish to be wealthy. But I believe they are.


----------



## GG999

Anybody thinking of making a lot of money by trading - could they consider what this guy talks about - if he is right then it's something that you might have to keep in mind

Youtube


----------



## tech/a

GG999 said:


> Anybody thinking of making a lot of money by trading - could they consider what this guy talks about - if he is right then it's something that you might have to keep in mind
> 
> Youtube




One of those suck in vids


----------



## ROE

GG999 said:


> Anybody thinking of making a lot of money by trading - could they consider what this guy talks about - if he is right then it's something that you might have to keep in mind
> 
> Youtube




Everyone has theory, every has a system and everyone has a technique...there are countless strategy out there...

It is easy to talk and draw pretty diagram with full knowledge of hind insight it is not that easy in real life.

and he is the best trader by default because he is trading his program for your hard cash 

There is no magic system, the best system is the one that fit your investment principles and investment objectives.


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## tigerboi

Has anyone here made themselves "rich" or wealthy by trading?

not yet...

but once i become an investor in BCT bluechiip i am seriously confident it will 

turn me into a multi... TB


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## boofis

young-gun said:


> My life will be full of wealth and riches in every sense of the words, financial, love, happiness, family, the works. The satisfaction will be knowing that me and the people around me created such a life through hard work and determination. And thankyou for bringing up the maserati, as the Gran Turismo I think will be my proudest purchase when the time comes. I envy you if you have had the luxury of driving one.
> 
> There is hurdles to pass that's for sure, but can you not imagine having the joyful relationships, contribution to local community, and the same sense of being ok with yourself that you describe, and the money? The two are most certainly compatible, if they are not, then I do not wish to be wealthy. But I believe they are.




History does seem to point to an inverse correlation between acquisition of money and participation in joyful family relationships :


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