# Has Kevin Rudd misled parliament?



## Quincy (19 June 2009)

> Mr Rudd will also face allegations today he misled parliament when he said neither he nor his office made representations on behalf of the car dealer to help secure funding under the government's $2billion scheme.




Article in "The Australian" by Natasha Bita | June 19, 2009 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25658551-5006786,00.html

The Daily Telegraph also reports today that a correspondence trail involving the Prime Minister's office points to Ford being asked to offer financial support to Mr Grant while the carmaker was trying to secure $550 million under the OzCar scheme. A spokesman for Mr Rudd said the Prime Minister stood by his earlier comments. 

John Grant lives around the corner from Mr Rudd and is said to be a good friend of both Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan.


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## Quincy (19 June 2009)

*Re: Has Kevin Rudd misled parliament ?*

Here's part of "The Daily Telegraph's" article about this matter - EXCLUSIVE by Steve Lewis, June 19, 2009 12:00am


http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25657561-5001021,00.html



> PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd is facing serious allegations that he misled Parliament after lobbying for a car dealer and friend to secure a taxpayer-funded financial lifeline.
> 
> *The fresh allegations of high-level interference will send shockwaves through the Rudd Government and will feature prominently at a Senate hearing in Canberra today.*
> 
> ...


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## Aussiejeff (19 June 2009)

*Re: Has Kevin Rudd misled parliament ?*



Quincy said:


> Here's part of "The Daily Telegraph's" article about this matter - EXCLUSIVE by Steve Lewis, June 19, 2009 12:00am
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25657561-5001021,00.html




Impossible.

Mr KRudd is sincere & squeeky clean.

(OK, you can spank me....)


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## Calliope (19 June 2009)

Mr Rudd has misled Australia. His ambition is to mislead the world.


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## kincella (19 June 2009)

Chinese give PM Kevin Rudd lesson on neoliberalism
By Rowan Callick, Asia-Pacific editor
The Australian
June 19, 2009 12:00am

KEVIN Rudd has been accused by a leading Chinese economist of being "either short of economic knowledge or misleading his readers" in his famous essay attacking neoliberalism. 
In a scathing assessment, Xu Xaonian, economics professor at China Europe International Business School in Shanghai, lambasts the essay, now translated and published in China, as "shallow and crude", The Australian reports. 

Dr Xu says "Lu Kewen" - Mr Rudd's Chinese name - made a "big, big mistake" in forming his "confident opinions" based on "the observation that the crisis came as a result of neoliberalism and the absence of supervision".

Dr Xu, one of China's leading liberal economists, has savaged the Rudd essay in the weekly Chinese newspaper The Economic Observer after the Prime Minister's work was translated and reprinted in China's leading business magazine, Caijing.

Dr Xu, who has a doctorate from the University of California and was formerly managing director of the country's biggest investment bank, says it is not time to resurrect Keynesianism, as Mr Rudd proposes.

He says the Prime Minister "has used electioneering-style tactics to brand neoliberalism as dogmatic, to paint a clownish portrait of it, seeking to pioneer popular antipathy to this artificial enemy, casting a moral verdict without seeming to care about truth or logic".

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25658874-462,00.html


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## Calliope (19 June 2009)

> *without seeming to care about truth or logic*




That sums him up exactly.

"*Dear Mis-Leader* is now a more appropriate title for him.


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## Quincy (19 June 2009)

kincella said:


> Chinese give PM Kevin Rudd lesson on neoliberalism
> By Rowan Callick, Asia-Pacific editor
> The Australian
> June 19, 2009 12:00am
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,,25657881-643,00.html


Kewen Wudd . . . . wascally wudd


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## Quincy (19 June 2009)

> *'Don't lie to save your boss Rudd'*
> 
> 12:15pm: OPPOSITION Leader Malcolm Turnbull lectured an adviser to the PM and accused him of lying about favours for Kevin Rudd's car dealer friend John Grant.
> 
> ...




Latest from today's Senate hearing in Canberra today.


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## Timmy (19 June 2009)

Why haven't the documents been produced?  Wouldn't that sort this all out?

I seriously doubt that KRudd would be stupid enough to document such requests.

Beat up.


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## Buddy (19 June 2009)

> Article from:  The Australian
> A KEY adviser to the Prime Minister, Andrew Charlton, has accused Opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull of threatening and bullying him at the Parliamentary Midwinter Ball.



http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25659112-5013871,00.html

Ahhh, I get it now. It's OK for the P.M. to bully an air hostess about not getting bean sprouts in his meal, but not OK for the leader of the opposition to bully staffer Andrew Charlton about potential corruption. 
Now, now Andy.... get a life and stand up for yourself. There's a good lad, you woose, you big girl's blouse! If you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.


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## GumbyLearner (19 June 2009)

Buddy said:


> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25659112-5013871,00.html
> 
> Ahhh, I get it now. It's OK for the P.M. to bully an air hostess about not getting bean sprouts in his meal, but not OK for the leader of the opposition to bully staffer Andrew Charlton about potential corruption.
> Now, now Andy.... get a life and stand up for yourself. There's a good lad, you woose, you big girl's blouse! If you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.




LOL! 

It is like the pot calling the kettle black.


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## Quincy (19 June 2009)

Timmy said:


> Why haven't the documents been produced?  Wouldn't that sort this all out?
> 
> I seriously doubt that KRudd would be stupid enough to document such requests.
> 
> Beat up.





*Swan's office 'lobbied on behalf of Rudd mate'*

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25659602-5001028,00.html



> The inquiry was presented with emails from Treasurer Wayne Swan's office to Treasury lobbying on behalf of Mr Grant.






> But a Treasury official said there'd been no similar representations from Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's office.




Just heard on the radio that a treasury official (name ?) has stated at the Senate hearing under questioning that he recalls receiving an E-mail from the PMO (Prime Mnister's Office) about the request.


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## Quincy (19 June 2009)

> A TREASURY official has started lifting the lid on behind-the-scenes talks, phone calls and faxes that could decide whether Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan have misled Parliament over alleged efforts to secure taxpayer-funded help for the Prime Minister's car dealer friend John Grant.






> A series of emails between an adviser in Treasurer Wayne Swan's office and his home fax, shows that Mr Grech was personally dealing with Mr Grant's efforts to raise finance.
> 
> Mr Grech said the prime minister's office contacted him regarding Mr Grant.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25659784-5001021,00.html


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## Timmy (19 June 2009)

Keep digging Quincy - so far no documents from Krudd?  So far looks like the treasury official may be left to carry the blame (if there is any)?


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## Quincy (19 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25659784-5001021,00.html




*"Labor senators and fellow Treasury official David Martine spent more than 10 minutes trying to stop Mr Grech answering a question about whether Mr Grech had seen a document from Mr Rudd's office regarding Mr Grant. "*


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## Datsun Disguise (19 June 2009)

Getting tasty - but as timmy keeps saying - where's the documentation proving it? Without that (and maybe even with it) the PM's office spin machine will be in over drive. Hopefully we get the ruth and it sticks. 

Let's see how good they are at their chosen game......

Unfortunately for  David Martine  if he is alone on this they'll tear him apart. We'll be hearing all about that illegitimate child / drug addict brother / messy divorce / drunk night out on the town with Bang Kok's lady boys funded by tax payers money or whatever they can dig up in his past.

(None of the above exploits are David's to my knowledge, just pulled a few out of my own grab bag of life experiences.... )


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 June 2009)

Members are being extremely harsh on Kev07.

Politicians are not paid all that much and it is understandable that he should look after his mates, particularly rich mates. Thus when he is no longer in parliament he can travel in the way in which he was accustomed, when he was PM.

If he can find a way to advantage his mates, why shouldn't he?

Particularly rich mates.

Car dealers are a group of people in Australian society whom we all look up to as all that is best in the Australian psyche,.. honesty, diligence, the fair go and loyalty to their customers.

Posters who denigrate the PM should hang their heads in shame.

Yes, shame, shame, shame.

I mean its not as if he was caught shoving a fifty dollar note in to a strippers briefs, at a strip club called Scores in New York!

Fair shake of the whatsit fellow ASF posters. Fair shake of the whatsit.

gg


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## Uncle Barry (19 June 2009)

Good evening,
Could someone please explain the difference between,
He lied
and
He misled

the Parliamnt of Australia
and therefore ALL the people of this country called Australa.

Kind regards,
UB


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## GumbyLearner (19 June 2009)

Who thinks it is odds-on that the email to Abetz will end up in the same shredder as the AWB memos during JH's tenure? :


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## Datsun Disguise (19 June 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Members are being extremely harsh on Kev07.
> ..
> 
> Posters who denigrate the PM should hang their heads in shame.
> ...




Thank you for setting me  (us) straight - you are entirely right, who are we to question him anyway - the great unwashed questioning the milky bar kid!?! - it's just not kosher. I retract all past and future criticisms, unreservedly.


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## Happy (19 June 2009)

Somehow I suspect that staffer will get the blame and leave job.


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## Julia (19 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> *"Labor senators and fellow Treasury official David Martine spent more than 10 minutes trying to stop Mr Grech answering a question about whether Mr Grech had seen a document from Mr Rudd's office regarding Mr Grant. "*



Yes, I watched this on the 7.30 Report this evening.   The attempts to shut Mr Grech up were quite astonishing.


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## Calliope (19 June 2009)

I think the Australian public's love affair with this mendacious and manipulative man may soon be over. He may have to throw Swan to the wolves.


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## Stan 101 (19 June 2009)

Buddy said:


> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25659112-5013871,00.html
> 
> Ahhh, I get it now. It's OK for the P.M. to bully an air hostess about not getting bean sprouts in his meal,



So our leaders are imune to pressure, occasionally making bad judgement calls and the like? Have you ever made a bad judgement call and lashed out when in hindsite it seemed trivial?

I care nout for pollies must admit they have atough job. Not only dealing with the important aspects of runnig a country they must deal with childish journos looking for the next scoop.

Do yourself a favour, wipe your nose clean, pull up your socks and be the best person you can be. When you have acheived that, maybe , just maybe, you might have the strength and diligence to work in the secretery office.

Go home and have a think about your comments.


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## moXJO (19 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> So our leaders are imune to pressure, occasionally making bad judgement calls and the like? Have you ever made a bad judgement call and lashed out when in hindsite it seemed trivial?
> 
> I care nout for pollies must admit they have atough job. Not only dealing with the important aspects of runnig a country they must deal with childish journos looking for the next scoop.
> 
> ...




It's a little more than just a bad judgment call, and it's not the only one. Labor is rife with corruption through the states. This kind of crap needs to be stamped out not pushed aside.It is more like arrogance and stupidity then anything to do with pressure


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## GumbyLearner (19 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> So our leaders are imune to pressure, occasionally making bad judgement calls and the like? Have you ever made a bad judgement call and lashed out when in hindsite it seemed trivial?
> 
> I care nout for pollies must admit they have atough job. Not only dealing with the important aspects of runnig a country they must deal with childish journos looking for the next scoop.
> 
> ...




Fair call Stan

But if he is involved in this stuff? It is a clear case of profiting from his position? If not, it should be dismissed. 

But let's LET Canberra decide.


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## Stan 101 (19 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Fair call Stan
> 
> But if he is involved in this stuff? It is a clear case of profiting from his position? If not, it should be dismissed.
> 
> But let's LET Canberra decide.




I agree, well let's just let level heads bring out the truth and then pass judgement.

I wasn't commenting on the current issue of a getting a free ute. I was talking about all people at some time making poor judgement and dispicable print media.


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## GumbyLearner (19 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> I agree, well let's just let level heads bring out the truth and then pass judgement.
> 
> I wasn't commenting on the current issue of a getting a free ute. I was talking about all people at some time making poor judgement and dispicable print media.




I agree, they are usually full of ****!


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## Stan 101 (19 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> It's a little more than just a bad judgment call, and it's not the only one. Labor is rife with corruption through the states. This kind of crap needs to be stamped out not pushed aside.It is more like arrogance and stupidity then anything to do with pressure




Put up your proof. Then put up proof there is not a previous government that has had similar dodgey dealings.

or just simply put it into context. People in power will always be corrupt in some form. It comes with the territory.

Now raise the bar and set guidelines. What is acceptable?
Have yiou ever accepted a free biro? Childish as it may seem that is corruption.
Have you ever been taken out to lunch with a client willing to hold your business? Is that corruption?

Where does one draw the line?

It's silly naysayers who constantly whine, yes whine and are never happy until the power is brought down. They then scurry unhder the rugs until the next one is tall enough to bring to the floor again..


Sit back and think this through. Is it really that bad?


cheers,


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 June 2009)

It will be interesting to see how this all works out.

He's called an inquiry into it.

gg


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## moXJO (19 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Put up your proof. Then put up proof there is not a previous government that has had similar dodgey dealings.
> 
> or just simply put it into context. People in power will always be corrupt in some form. It comes with the territory.
> 
> ...





I don't use taxpayer funds to do it. 

If he has misled then yes it is bad. 

I think you might be better under a dictatorship. The majority of you argument is a bit on the stupid side by saying suck it up and deal with it. Any corruption should be fought against, not ignored. Otherwise you get the situation NSW police were in a few years back. Or numerous councils that have recently been through the wringer over corruption. This is the PM not the fricken mafia. Its people with your attitude that let the rot in. 

I will be interested in seeing if he has misled parliament


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## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> I don't use taxpayer funds to do it.
> 
> If he has misled then yes it is bad.
> 
> ...




So you have proof a misdeed has taken place? Great, I'd like to see it in either video or PDF format.

Live in a bubble if you like, but public chosen leaders still fart, have marriage break up, and make poor judgement calls.


next.


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## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> So you have proof a misdeed has taken place? Great, I'd like to see it in either video or PDF format.
> 
> Live in a bubble if you like, but public chosen leaders still fart, have marriage break up, and make poor judgement calls.
> 
> ...




Yep... lets excuse all actions based on your arguments


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## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

Oh and I hope you don't work for a public owned company after not denying taking a bribe. If you work for a privately owned business, would you care to inform your business owner and the owner of the business you dealt with?


cheers,


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## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Yep... lets excuse all actions based on your arguments






Prove the current actions.


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## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Oh and I hope you don't work for a public owned company after not denying taking a bribe. If you work for a privately owned business, would you care to inform your business owner and the owner of the business you dealt with?
> 
> 
> cheers,




What planet are you from? Or are you currently drunk?


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## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> I don't use taxpayer funds to do it.




No, sober as a judge, potitician, or public company emplyee (choose one of the above)

You don't use tax payer's fund to apparently take part in untoward behaviour. You said, look just a few lines above.

Again, put some proof up that the prime minister has done anything out out of guidlines and then we can discuss this thread some more.


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## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> No, sober as a judge, potitician, or public company emplyee (choose one of the above)
> 
> You don't use tax payer's fund to apparently take part in untoward behaviour. You said, look just a few lines above.
> 
> Again, put some proof up that the prime minister has done anything out out of guidlines and then we can discuss this thread some more.




First you condone corruption, then tell me taking a free biro is a form of corruption and that it is akin to govt corruption using taxpayer’s money. My issue isn't so much with Rudd, but with your warped sense of accepting corruption. Not if Rudd is guilty or not. 

Now you are accusing me of taking bribes because I said "Not with taxpayer funds"
That’s because I have taken a free biro before, and according to you that is a form of corruption

I don't need to prove anything about Rudd so you can wait for the commission like everyone else.


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## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> "Not with taxpayer funds"




No, you should quote yourself properly. Not as above, but what you said was "I don't use taxpayer funds to do it."

See the difference?

Thank you for backing up my points. manipulation in the media or even a fora can be deceptive.

yes I do condone a ceratin corruption because I am a part of a capitalist society and take part in it, even if in only the smallest of extremes. You have admitted to it to; as I noted in your quote calrification.

what's your point? I'm discussing why a PM is being accused before proof firsty.

Secondly, yes, I am not concerned if he did accept a ute or whatever.

Please explain how that is different toparty donations that gives one an ear into the leader whenever it suits.


Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. But if you don't see it my way, I could sort you and the missus out with dinner and a nice bottle of bubbly and you may accept. I've heard you're open to suggestion..see quote above. 

cheers,


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## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> No, you should quote yourself properly. Not as above, but what you said was "I don't use taxpayer funds to do it."
> 
> See the difference?
> 
> ...




No just send a free pen. Everyone knows they are my personal choice of bribe

Yes you caught me with "I don't use taxpayer funds to do it." I am now tainted with the horror of stan101 corruption. "hypocritical" you might want to look that word up.

You have a unique way of going all over the place with your posts. Am I just tired and your posts coming off weird, or are they just weird?


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## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> No just send a free pen. Everyone knows they are my personal choice of bribe
> 
> Yes you caught me with "I don't use taxpayer funds to do it." I am now tainted with the horror of stan101 corruption. "hypocritical" you might want to look that word up.
> 
> You have a unique way of going all over the place with your posts. Am I just tired and your posts coming off weird, or are they just weird?




it's not peronal, just type based on what I see. Much like the print media bagging Rudd. 


Why should I look up that "big word"? I've admitted I'm open to corruption in small proprtions. As I mentioned, it's part of captialism. Our Parliment thrives on capitalism. In small proprtions. Please lay out where I have been hypocritical. I thought I was on a common chord.


cheers,


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## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Why should I look up that "big word"? I've admitted I'm open to corruption in small proprtions. As I mentioned, it's part of captialism. Our Parliment thrives on capitalism. In small proprtions. Please lay out where I have been hypocritical. I thought I was on a common chord.
> 
> *You don't use tax payer's fund to apparently take part in untoward behaviour. You said, look just a few lines above.*
> 
> cheers,




You are accusing the media of jumping to conclusions, then make the statement above in bold off one line I posted (hmmm see any similarities in jumping to conclusions).  No I don't use taxpayer funds to accept free pens, free lunches etc.


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## GumbyLearner (20 June 2009)

I can understand how ALP dudes want to cruise.

But at the expense of the taxpayer, I can't understand why?

Also I could never understand how Johnny bailed out his brother?

Even though the company was useless at making a dollar above the red, it still got bailed out by the Australian taxpayer. Thanks JOHN HOWARD, you paid FOR EVERY ASF SUBSCRIBER



Who said TORIES hated anti-conservative diatribe? Not-me

Give Kev a go, the Liberals in Australia are really hypocrites, essentially they are?

Go and die in the wasteland or vote for TURNBULL!

I don't want to vote for Turnbull after over a decade of Howard! 

That's the reality!!!!!


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## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> You are accusing the media of jumping to conclusions, then make the statement above in bold off one line I posted (hmmm see any similarities in jumping to conclusions).  No I don't use taxpayer funds to accept free pens, free lunches etc.





Now I am the one who needs to ask... Have you been drinking?

I didn't understand a word of what you wrote..


But anyway, let's hope we have all just seen a lesson in "spin."

Easy to do, no? We both had ample opportunity to retort yet the waters were still muddied.

Imagine what a tabloid or heavan forbid, a broadsheet can do with a one way reparte.


cheers,


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## GumbyLearner (20 June 2009)

Kevin Rudd is a complete softcock.

Seriously I don't think Kevin Rudd could do an 8 hour day non-stop job with 25kg on his back, mind you John Howard could never have carried half that load. If he was willing to do it, I would believe him. But I challenge him to at least try! Come on Kevvy????

But since he is so averse to Aristotle and more agreeable to the likes of Plato, with one tenth of the intellect. He won't be the new Whitlam because he lacks the humanity and understanding of the people he is meant to be representing. 

Chardonnay SOFTCOCK! JMO

DYOR


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## GumbyLearner (20 June 2009)

On the other hand

I think the Liberal Party of Australia were complete softcocks too.

They were complicit with Johnny Howard and the Aussie Wheat Boards desire too trade food for um.. Oil or maybe weapons... His family owned a servo in Sydney that's why Torie voters loved him so much! They loved success!

Now that Krudd has done a deal with his car dealer friends, Wayne Swan might get an inground pool built at the back of his house and refuse to pay the completion costs.

Who really cares?

Seriously who cares?

The key is that all these people could not give a living **** about you or me.
So it's a WOFTAM to worry about either of them!

What a waste of thread space!


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## Tink (20 June 2009)

The Liberals havent stopped whinging and moaning since they lost the election

like John Howard did nothing wrong?

Oh please....

LOL @ Gumby


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## Quincy (20 June 2009)

> Mr Tanner said Mr Turnbull has been telling journalists that he has a copy of an email which shows Prime Minister Kevin Rudd lobbying for Ipswich car dealer John Grant, who was seeking assistance under the $2 billion OzCar vehicle financing scheme.




Are Lindsay's claims correct ?
Is Malcolm just stirring the pot ?
Is Malcolm delaying the release of the "said" E-mail to allow Kevin to further incriminate himself ?
Is it all just one big "beat up" ?

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...-Turnbull-to-show-evidence-T6JZM?OpenDocument

Business Spectator - 4:08 AM, 20 Jun 2009


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## knocker (20 June 2009)

Not at all. He is the best PM we have ever had.


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## Quincy (20 June 2009)

Timmy said:


> Keep digging Quincy - so far no documents from Krudd?  So far looks like the treasury official may be left to carry the blame (if there is any)?




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/827872/newspaper-publishes-ozcar-leaked-email

06:05 AEST Sat Jun 20 2009


*Newspaper publishes OzCar 'leaked email'*

Emails alleging the Prime Minister's office tried to help Ipswich car dealer John Grant secure a taxpayer-funded loan from the $2 billion OzCar vehicle financing scheme have been published in a Sydney newspaper.

Senior Treasury official Godwin Grech, who is in charge of the OzCar scheme, told a Senate inquiry on Friday he had been approached by the Prime Minister's office about Mr Grant's needs.

He said he thought there had been an email which confirmed the request, but then told the committee it was possible his memory was faulty.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has repeatedly denied he or his office tried to help Mr Grant secure a government-backed loan. (Read more: Rudd orders inquiry) 

On Saturday News Limited's The Daily Telegraph published emails it says were sent by Andrew Charlton, Mr Rudd's senior adviser, to Mr Grech.

A February 19 email from Mr Charlton to Mr Grant reads:

"Hi Godwin, the PM has asked if the car dealer financing vehicle is available to assist a Queensland dealership, John Grant Motors, who seems to be having trouble getting finance.

"If you can follow up on this asap that would be very useful. Happy to discuss. A."

In an alleged reply sent by Mr Grech on February 23 to Treasurer Wayne Swan and Department Liaison Officer (Economic) Andrew Thomas, Mr Grech reports on his progress.

"Andrew, as promised, I raised the case of John Grant with the CEO of Ford Credit, Greg Cohen, during my meeting with Ford Credit in Melbourne today.

"Cohen gave me an undertaking that Ford Credit will actively look at taking Grant on.

"John Grant called me earlier this afternoon (from Auckland) to say that Ford Credit had been in contact with him after my meeting."

An undated email, also allegedly sent by Mr Grech to Mr Swan and Mr Thomas, expresses concerns.

"Andrew, I told Grant to keep in touch and to let me know if Ford show concerns or resistance (I will not speak with Ford again on this unless it is absolutely necessary to push it through)," Mr Grech reportedly wrote.

"He also said that he wants to come to Canberra to meet me (and I assume you). Although I said nothing, I don't think that would be a good idea until this is settled. Godwin."

Mr Thomas thanked Mr Grech in a responding email.

"Great work," the email read.

"Just so you are aware, these emails are also going to the Treasurer's home fax. Cheers, Andrew.

Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull has called on Mr Rudd and Mr Swan to justify their actions over links to Mr Grant or resign.


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## Calliope (20 June 2009)

*Utegate* bears a striking resemblance to Watergate where personal assistants were prepared to engage in lies and deceit to protect their boss, knowing that if their boss went down they would go down too. Rudd's assistants have a history of lying on other issues.

Where is "Deep Throat" when you need him?


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## Gamblor (20 June 2009)

Jeez you guys have too much time on your hands.

Who cares


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## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Now I am the one who needs to ask... Have you been drinking?
> 
> I didn't understand a word of what you wrote..
> 
> ...




You accuse me of taking bribes by twisting my post and jumping to conclusions from one line of my post. Yet you complain everyone else does it (jump to conclusions) in the media. You even started another thread on it.
So in point form to slow it down

* You accuse media and board members of jumping to conclusions and no proof (except the fact it's sitting in his driveway and his mate has a massive favor loan)
* You condone corruption
* You jump to conclusions and accuse me of corruption, which is in itself hypocritical
* We both get more confused





> The Liberals havent stopped whinging and moaning since they lost the election
> 
> like John Howard did nothing wrong?




Tink wrong is wrong. While I don't like the majority of what Rudd stands for and am biased, you don't excuse one side or another for dodgy dealings. If you let these things slide, they all think they can dip into our money for their own benefit. It goes on enough already. And having an 'it's fine everyone does it from time to time' attitude just reinforces the idea that they will get away with it. After a while it starts getting out of control. 

While you can never stop it, you can at least punish those caught enough to scare the others. People being complacent and turning a blind eye is how we end up living knee deep in corruption. "Everyone does it" is not an excuse and people should expect more from their MP's.


----------



## Tink (20 June 2009)

I know your biased - I just hope you would be jumping up and down and demanding the same if it was the Liberals on the line..

I will sit on the fence on this one until I see some proof, if there is any...


----------



## rederob (20 June 2009)

Howard simply refused to be put in the firing line, and made his staff scapegoats when the going got tough.  He even let his most senior advisor and good friend fall on his (Howard's) sword when evidence that tested his credibility got too close for comfort.

Rudd has made several statement in the House about what he knows, and what his staffers advise.  He has had his Departments search for the smoking guns that now appear in the media.  Nothing has turned up. Rudd is now asking the Auditor General to "search".
In this matter Rudd is fully aware that the Senate can probe more deeply still, and that Labor does not have control of the Senate.

The most amusing aspect of this matter is that, for some reason, we are putting aside the millions of dollars of political party contributions that have in the past curried favours, and are now focusing on something that is trivial in the extreme when put into the broader context.  

Grant had a right to know about the program which affected his business, and would have been well within his rights to speak to any parliamentarian about it.  That MP would have had a duty of care to ensure Grant's request was acted on.  Turnbull has turned a right of citizenry into a three ringed circus where he, as Ringmaster, is managing to call the shots.  It is an act of great buffoonery where, as the curtain falls, he will be revealed as the Clown he is.


----------



## Timmy (20 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> *Utegate*




Excellent!


----------



## kincella (20 June 2009)

they have had plenty of time to get rid of any emails, since the matter was raised in the house weeks ago....
were the emails via Telstra  ??? and  ordered to be deleted from Telstras system ???
oh and a poll todays says 72% believe the PM lied

extract from an article by LenoreTaylor today.(Dont listen to any of the political reporters anymore, since they have all been silent, apart from sucking up to rudd) its only raised here now....because they are finally reporting a negative side.....which should have been the case for the past 2 years

Mr Grech told the Senate inquiry that because the representation had come from the Treasurer's office he had given Mr Grant's case "priority"; he "had the impression (Mr Grant) wasn't your average constituent" and the Treasurer's staff had "made it clear (Mr Grant) was an associate of some type with the Treasurer and the Prime Minister". 

And Mr Grant's case got astonishing attention for a small town Queensland car dealer. 

Two emails from Mr Grech about the case, released yesterday, were sent to Mr Swan's home fax and to Treasury chief Ken Henry, as well as to senior public servants and ministerial staff. In one Mr Grech mentions in only three paragraphs Ford Credit's need for $500 million of finance to save its entire car dealership business, but devotes 10 paragraphs to whether Ford Credit will take on Mr Grant's business. 
And he promises that if Ford shows "concerns or resistance" to taking on Mr Grant he would speak to them again to "push it through". 

The government's problems are as much about Mr Rudd and Mr Swan's categoric denials as about what they and their staff have done. This is as much about the obfuscation or the cover-up as the alleged crime - that the government asked public servants to give priority to a prime ministerial friend and political donor.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25662847-5017906,00.html


----------



## Quincy (20 June 2009)

*OzCar emails an elaborate hoax: Rudd*

Kevin Rudd has branded leaked emails supposedly detailing his efforts to help a car dealer friend secure a taxpayer-funded loan an "elaborate hoax". 

The emails were allegedly sent on Mr Rudd's behalf to Godwin Grech, the head of the Government's $2 billion OZ Car scheme, seeking financial help for Ipswich car salesman John Grant. 

They were purportedly sent from the computer of Mr Rudd's senior economic adviser Andrew Charlton to Mr Grech. 

But Mr Rudd's spokesman told the Daily Telegraph no such email ever existed. 

"We believe the email is fake," the spokesman was quoted by the newspaper as saying. 

"The opposition must rule out any involvement in the creation or distribution of this fake email." 


http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/827872/newspaper-publishes-ozcar-leaked-email

06:05 AEST Sat Jun 20 2009


----------



## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Tink said:


> I know your biased - I just hope you would be jumping up and down and demanding the same if it was the Liberals on the line..
> 
> I will sit on the fence on this one until I see some proof, if there is any...




Can you really tell I'm biased I think it’s more a dislike for the Labor party at present then being a lib supporter. The Libs need to do a lot of work before they become a viable option. My initial issue was more to do with a post trying to condone corruption, not with Rudd being guilty or not.


You are right though more proof needs to come out. And even then no one will care that much.




> The most amusing aspect of this matter is that, for some reason, we are putting aside the millions of dollars of political party contributions that have in the past curried favours, and are now focusing on something that is trivial in the extreme when put into the broader context.




Yes, lets take a look at state and local contributions. How about the unions deals as well.


----------



## MrBurns (20 June 2009)

They should be able to verify if the email is real.

Why not put the car dealer under oath and ask him ? ........oh yeah he's a car dealer and the truth is probably not a high priority for him.

Just because they have no record of it doesnt mean it didnt exist.

Surely Ford Credit can verify or deny this.

If Rudd goes it leaves Gillard, what a freeking choice.


----------



## GumbyLearner (20 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Howard simply refused to be put in the firing line, and made his staff scapegoats when the going got tough.  He even let his most senior advisor and good friend fall on his (Howard's) sword when evidence that tested his credibility got too close for comfort.
> 
> Rudd has made several statement in the House about what he knows, and what his staffers advise.  He has had his Departments search for the smoking guns that now appear in the media.  Nothing has turned up. Rudd is now asking the Auditor General to "search".
> In this matter Rudd is fully aware that the Senate can probe more deeply still, and that Labor does not have control of the Senate.
> ...




The main reason why I became a political atheist.


----------



## Julia (20 June 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It will be interesting to see how this all works out.
> 
> He's called an inquiry into it.
> 
> gg



That's not due to be completed until end of July.  By then something else will be more important.









> The government's problems are as much about Mr Rudd and Mr Swan's categoric denials as about what they and their staff have done. This is as much about the obfuscation or the cover-up as the alleged crime - that the government asked public servants to give priority to a prime ministerial friend and political donor.
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25662847-5017906,00.html



That's exactly right.   
There's no issue with the car dealer's provision of the ute to Mr Rudd.
It was appropriately recorded on the Register.

If, as looks likely from the now published emails, Mr Rudd and/or Mr Swan sought preferential treatment for their friend, then it's probably no more or less than we'd expect.  However, I absolutely agree with MoXJO about not accepting corruption however small it seems.  These are taxpayer funds and must be used absolutely without prejudice or favour.

But the real problem is that when previously asked if any assistance had been sought for the car dealer, both Mr Rudd and Mr Swan denied this, and did so repeatedly.   It's the lying (or misleading if one is being kind) that I have an issue with, if in fact that's what has happened.





moXJO said:


> Can you really tell I'm biased I think it’s more a dislike for the Labor party at present then being a lib supporter.



I feel the same.  I'm a swinging voter, have voted for Labor both federally and state.   Didn't vote for them last time, but thought Mr Rudd would be OK.  I don't feel that way any more.


----------



## GumbyLearner (20 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> *OzCar emails an elaborate hoax: Rudd*
> 
> Kevin Rudd has branded leaked emails supposedly detailing his efforts to help a car dealer friend secure a taxpayer-funded loan an "elaborate hoax".
> 
> ...




If it is found to be a hoax, I wonder if Turnbull will do a Ralph Willis?


----------



## MrBurns (20 June 2009)

> "The opposition must rule out any involvement in the creation or distribution of this fake email."




Thats a leading statement assuming the email is fake. 

Tell you what .........if Rudd resigns because he's a terminal tosser and financial incompetent we'll call it quits. Fair enough ?


----------



## kincella (20 June 2009)

they have had several weeks to destroy the evidence of the first email...except for the ones that Gech disclosed at the senate hearing yesterday...
just because you delete an email from your PC does not mean its vanished...and can not be found....
because rudd is such a control freak...and abuses his staff...is it 60+ have left...anyone of them would probably prefer to make a leak...
and I guess god help Gech....facing the wrath of the bad tempered pm, and the rest of the bully boys

oh gilliard...is so awkward, probably never seen a more ugly woman....and now with the unions offside....her job is not safe....she will not be a pm... 

and Miss Wong wears the pants.....hehehehehe
wot a motley ugly little group holding the reins

and anyone notice...oates and mccrann now saying Costello was the best treasurer ever....thats an about face....
in fact there are quite a few about faces from the political reporters....
who have not been reporting for 2 years...just been saying what the pm tells them to say..... weisels...all of them
I dont like any of the weak libs either....
but at 51 Costello can have a break for 6 months while the libs self destruct...then take over the camp....turnbull and abbott should be gone by then...I would leave Joe Hockey somewhere he can be mentored for a future role
believe Costello is the only one to bring us out of this mess..............
ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## Calliope (20 June 2009)

We all know that Rudd and his staff tell porkies.

This from The Punch.



> The affair is reminiscent of the Sunrise Dawn Service fiasco where Mr Rudd emphatically denied that his office had been involved in any attempts to reschedule the Anzac Day Dawn Service, only for emails to emerge proving he had done just that.
> 
> The Sunrise affair went to Rudd’s candour and it suggested a bit of glibness and cleverness in his replies - but in essence it remained a silly kerfuffle over a TV show. The Grant affair is in a different category as it involves the disbursement of public money, suggestions of favours for friends, and as of today’s estimates hearings, the undeniable proof that Mr Rudd has either cocked up or cooked up his line of defence in the Parliament.




His staff also denied he had abused the tea lady on the plane, and that he threw a hissy fit over the hairdryer.

All little lies, of course, but good training for the *big lie*


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## Quincy (20 June 2009)

*Swan hits back at Libs on OzCar email*

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/827872/newspaper-publishes-ozcar-leaked-email

14:20 AEST Sat Jun 20 2009



> "Reports today indicate that the opposition has sighted that fake email.
> 
> "I think Opposition Leader Mr Turnbull should provide full details of when they saw it and who gave it to them.
> 
> ...




Shortly before Mr Swan spoke to reporters in Brisbane, Mr Turnbull told reporters in Sydney that the opposition had no involvement with the email.


----------



## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> We all know that Rudd and his staff tell porkies.
> 
> This from The Punch.
> 
> ...




LOL you didn't start this website Calli?

http://kevinruddlies.com/lies/kevin.htm


----------



## Timmy (20 June 2009)

Julia said:


> There's no issue with the car dealer's provision of the ute to Mr Rudd.
> It was appropriately recorded on the Register.



Well if that's the case can we still call it Utegate? (please)


----------



## kincella (20 June 2009)

I think the UTE was another con to begin with...let people think rudd was a good old bloke, who just drove around in an old bomb ute......seems harmless enough......


----------



## kincella (20 June 2009)

I found this on a blog....

*the question*
I need to know, are there any laws/legislation / standards which ISP's MUST follow in regards to disaster recovery/backups? 

For example, do certain records need to be kept for a certain amount of time and so on. If so, where can I find the specific documentation related to this?

*the answer........*
Yes their certainly are laws, ones that relate to work place injuries (stored till 2040), legally privileged information. Educational results. Court documents. Forensic Documents. Medical Documents. Internal office communications, Contractual information, a whole raft of requirements depending on the industry.

If you have a US office, or are incorporated in the US, they also have their requirements you need to meet under SOX/HIPPA etc. European Privacy laws are also very strict, if you interact with European countries you need to manage their data in accordance with the EU privacy laws, this may or may not impact on your storage/archival/recovery requirements.

You also have The Privacy Act, and Freedom of Information Act, you may or may not need to meet. ISP's also have requirements under the Telecommunications Act. If you as an ISP are involved in Telecommunications Intercept, and store/process that information, you have a further requirement for archive as defined under the PSM (Protective Security Manual) which refers to the ISM (Information Security Manual) Formerly ACSI33, this stipulates requirements for the storage and archiving of audit information etc. If your ISP has had such data, I suggest you discuss it with your liaison officer inside Attorney Generals Department, and they can help inform you of your requirements.

What state is 'Central Coast' in? There are state laws - SA has the State Records Act - http://www.archives.sa.gov.au/manage...gislation.html. I'm sure 'Central Coast has similar requirements.

Federal Requirements are covered by the Archive Act 1983 (An Act relating to the preservation and use of archival resources, and for related purposes) - Last updated 11/2008 
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legi...nImageResource


Aren't you glad you asked that question 


Quote:
Originally Posted by TehCamel  
which i think is BuLL****. unless we're a public company, how long we keep records for us entirely up to our own corporate governance 

Absolutely not. Worker on your site inhales asbestos during a work place accident. Your required to keep correspondence etc about that incident until 2040 (in SA at least). Sure the company may like to delete the information tomorrow so there is no evidence of neglect/negligence (ie, oops we forgot to tell him) etc, but if you do, you are now breaching another law. Some laws are very 'odd' other laws have a basis of common sense and for the protection of people. This is one of the latter. 
__________________
Integrity.Availability.Confidentiality 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by IACSecurity; 22nd April 2009 at 2:54 PM.  
ref;
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=773936 

and here is the legislation....you will note....most govt records have to be archived.....so if it was there..they will find it 

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/1C7081057CA1E510CA257458003089A7/$file/Special+Access+1988_without+footer.pdf


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## JTLP (20 June 2009)

kincella said:


> they have had several weeks to destroy the evidence of the first email...except for the ones that Gech disclosed at the senate hearing yesterday...
> just because you delete an email from your PC does not mean its vanished...and can not be found....
> because rudd is such a control freak...and abuses his staff...is it 60+ have left...anyone of them would probably prefer to make a leak...
> and I guess god help Gech....facing the wrath of the bad tempered pm, and the rest of the bully boys
> ...





Abbott can go..Turnbull no.

Turnbull is charismatic, intelligent, financially sound & knowledgeable and would IMO make a fantastic 2 way team with Costello. "Working Australians" (this phrase really grinds my gears) don't look kindly at Turnbull because he retains these qualities...especially the fact that he has a fortune in excess of $200m whilst the "Aussie Battlers" struggle to pay their home loans  

Australia has such a massive tall poppy syndrome problem it's sickening...


----------



## Julia (20 June 2009)

Timmy said:


> Well if that's the case can we still call it Utegate? (please)



Of course we can.  Such a title is just too good to give up.


----------



## Calliope (20 June 2009)

SMH today


> Rudd and Swan are not taking a backward step and neither are reckless men. But Swan has been made to look silly. He has repeatedly told Parliament Grant received no special treatment.
> 
> *The emails tabled at the inquiry yesterday, however, showed Mr Grant's request for assistance with credit was deemed important enough to keep the Treasurer, the departmental secretary Ken Henry, and the Treasurer's most senior staff apprised of developments. No other dealer referred to Treasury received such attention*.




Because they all knew that Rudd would throw a fit if they didn't pull it off. And he would have us believe that they didn't keep him well informed.


----------



## Stan 101 (20 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> * You accuse media and board members of jumping to conclusions and no proof (except the fact it's sitting in his driveway and his mate has a massive favor loan)




Well there is no proof anything untoward has happened yet. As mentioned it's on the record. It should be simple enough from the metadata in the emails to track the origin.



> * You condone corruption




I think I poorly asked in my own "weird' way what corruption actually is. Where does favours or donations stop being simple contributions and start becoming bribes or corruption?
Big business offering huge donations to party coffers is deem legitimate yet it allows the direct ear to those in power. It is legal but in my eyes it is legalised corruption. You interperatation may vary.

I mentioned I condone minor corruption. Yes I do, certainly. If I have a client in the hotel industry and I am offered free dining once a month under the guise of business relations I accept. To me, that is corruption. The hotellier would not give such an invite unless they thought there was some benefit to them somewhere down the line.

If I need to keep a client or bring them to my way of thinking, the first thing is dinner, drinks, and a show. This in my eyes is also corruption in my eyes. Again, your concepts may differ. The client gets freebies and I get what I want. Win - Win.
 I can assure you I would have not gained "important" clientele if such ongoing arrangements did not take place. My soul despises it at times, unless I genuinely enjoy the company of the client, but I still condone it.
So yes I condone minor corruption. At least my understanding of it.




> * You jump to conclusions and accuse me of corruption, which is in itself hypocritical




See above my explaination of minor corruption. Yes I was wordplaying with you. It was to juxtapose toward my other post. Yes I do thin a little too laterally sometimes. You are right to feel a little raw. No malice was intended, I assure you. I thought I put some smily faces into the equation to negate the seriousness.



> * We both get more confused




I live in a world of confusion. I enjoy it to some extent. It allows for new ideas to arise. I enjoy free thinking. I put it down to Edward DeBono. Damn that man's many hats.


I don't expect you to agree. I'm happy for you not to. I hope I have given a little insight or clarity to my previous posts, though.



Cheers,


----------



## Quincy (20 June 2009)

*Utegate: Federal police called in*



> PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd says *the Australian Federal Police will investigate whether someone impersonated a public servant* and made up a fake email that is at the centre of the OzCar scandal engulfing the government.
> 
> Mr Rudd said Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull had claimed to be in possession of documentary evidence that indicated his office had lobbied on behalf of Ipswich car dealer John Grant.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25663243-5001021,00.html

June 20, 2009 04:04pm


Another investigation announced by Kevin Rudd.


----------



## MrBurns (20 June 2009)

The King of spin is trying to turn it all back on Turnbull, Turnbull isn't the one who mislead Parliament and lied through his teeth ...........thats Rudds specialty.

I meet people regularly now who don't just dislike him they hate his smarmy smart **** guts and I can see their point.


----------



## moXJO (20 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> Well there is no proof anything untoward has happened yet. As mentioned it's on the record. It should be simple enough from the metadata in the emails to track the origin.
> 
> ,




I would say it's a printed copy that was handed over to the press.


----------



## Quincy (20 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The King of spin is trying to turn it all back on Turnbull, Turnbull isn't the one who mislead Parliament and lied through his teeth ...........thats Rudds specialty.
> 
> I meet people regularly now who don't just dislike him they hate his smarmy smart **** guts and I can see their point.





I would imagine that by now, this issue is receiving world-wide coverage.

One can only imagine the fall-out if the investigation proves that the subject E-mail is authentic and came from the Prime Minister's Office.


----------



## kincella (20 June 2009)

I think you can all now forget about whether there was an email or not....
I believe there was an email...and it will be located....hence the bluff by Rudd...
I think Rudd has woken up to the fact that the email is on the record and will be found....no matter how hard him and his mates tried to delete it....
no wonder Grech....was trying to tell the truth...he probably knows a bit more about the archive laws...

so now the pm is saying....
he wants the Fed Police to find out....'who impersonated a PS'
hohoho...so a fake person used the PM's PC to send a fake email
right...try pulling the other leg....this one is not responding

PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd says the Australian Federal Police will investigate whether someone impersonated a public servant and made up a fake email that is at the centre of the OzCar scandal engulfing the government.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25663243-5001021,00.html


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## Calliope (20 June 2009)

kincella said:


> I think Rudd has woken up to the fact that the email is on the record and will be found....no matter how hard him and his mates tried to delete it....
> no wonder Grech....was trying to tell the truth...he probably knows a bit more about the archive laws.




It's certainly in Grech's interests that Rudd and Swan don't wriggle out of it. If they do he is a dead man walking.


----------



## Quincy (20 June 2009)

kincella said:


> so now the pm is saying....
> he wants the Fed Police to find out....'who impersonated a PS'
> hohoho...so a fake person used the PM's PC to send a fake email
> right...try pulling the other leg....this one is not responding





This scandal just keeps mutating.


----------



## Calliope (20 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> It's certainly in Grech's interests that Rudd and Swan don't wriggle out of it. If they do he is a dead man walking.




It's started already. Lindsay Tanner, Minister for Finance, was suggesting on the news tonight that Grech might be mentally unstable. It's an old Stalinist trick to discredit those who don't toe the party line.

He will probably be bundled out on invalidity grounds.


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## kincella (20 June 2009)

some thing shifty going on with the proposed whistleblower laws...

I bet Grech is forced to resign.....same as all the other 60 or so members of Rudd staff resigned so far...they will make it impossible for him to continue....and he looked like he had, had enough yesterday....was he bullied you bet.

The scheme, which was drawn up by the House of Representatives standing committee on legal and constitutional affairs, is being considered by Special Minister of State John Faulkner. 

In its current form, the scheme would introduce an elaborate and confidential complaint-handling system inside the public service. Those who use the system would be protected from liability. 

But it would also retain criminal sanctions for most public disclosures, even those that are made in the public interest. 

"We say the proposed system does not work," Mr Bennett said. "If this proposed system goes ahead, don't use it." 

Mr Bennett's concern is that immunity from liability will not be extended to most disclosures about public sector wrongdoing that find their way into the public domain. 
The only public disclosures that will be protected would be those that concern immediate and serious threats to public health or safety. 

This is an improvement on the current arrangements, in which section 70 of the Commonwealth Crimes Act imposes criminal penalties on all public disclosures. 

But unless Senator Faulkner changes the committee's proposal, federal law would still impose criminal penalties -- and possible jail time -- on public servants who tell the public about abuse and mismanagement of public resources. 
Mr Bennett, who has opened discussions with Senator Faulkner's office, has a few suggestions about the type of disclosures that should be included in the final scheme. 

"What about corruption, maladministration, graft, abuse of office and nepotism?" Mr Bennett said. 
At the moment, he said the scheme made no provision for these matters to ever be revealed to the public. "
That is hiding things rather than making things accountable and transparent," he said. 

It is not just whistleblowers who stand to suffer because of the proposal's shortcomings. If Labor produces a scheme that is shunned by whistleblowers, it will also be undermining the effectiveness of its shield law for journalists' sources. 

The two schemes are linked, as Attorney-General Robert McClelland made clear in his second-reading speech on the bill that would introduce the shield law. 

This link between a law aimed at protecting whistleblowers and a law aimed at protecting journalists' sources has a startling consequence: it gives the federal 

Government a fresh opportunity to catch and prosecute public servants who reveal wrongdoing to the media. 
Mr McClelland told parliament that the Government's whistleblower scheme would provide "avenues other than themedia for public interest disclosures". 

Unless the whistleblower scheme is changed, the "disclosures" that Mr McClelland was referring to would take place in secret inside the public sector. 

If whistleblowers decide that the information they hold is so significant that it needs to bypass the secret system and go directly to the media, the link between the two schemes comes into play. 

Unless the material they pass to the media concerns a threat to public health or safety -- and the threat is immediate and serious -- they lose their protection under the whistleblower scheme. And they also stand to lose protection from the proposed shield law for journalists' sources. 

Labor's shield law builds on the law that was put in place by former attorney-general Phillip Ruddock. Yet neither scheme provides a reliable "shield". Nowhere in either version is there a presumption that the law will protect journalists' sources. 

Mr McClelland has retained the core of Mr Ruddock's blueprint, which gives judges a regulated discretion to allow journalists not to answer questions. 

Labor's big change is that an unauthorised leak from the public service -- a crime under federal law -- will no longer automatically remove the shield from the source in question. 
But if Mr Bennett is right about the limited attractions of the whistleblower scheme, the beneficial impact of this change might prove illusory. 

The Evidence Act already contains provisions that require judges to consider whether it was possible for a journalist's source to use laws, where they were available, that protect public interest disclosures. 

Without a federal whistleblower law, there is no chance that this provision could be used to unmask a journalist's source. 

But once Labor's whistleblower scheme comes into force, those who bypass it and go directly to the media will stand to lose the protection of the shield law. If the whistleblower scheme remains unchanged, the net effect could be that whistleblowers will lose the benefit of a shield law because of a judge's discretion instead of the words of a statute. 

Mr McClelland said as much in parliament: "Failure by a source to access the protections provided by these (whistleblower) laws would be a relevant consideration in the court's determination of whether the confidential communication between a journalist and source should be privileged." 

So unless Senator Faulkner strengthens the proposed whistleblower scheme in order to make it more attractive to public servants, he will be weakening the protection for sources that is contained in Mr McClelland's shield law. 

There is, however, another possibility. Weak shield laws and inadequate whistleblower protection could be Labor's real goal. Such an outcome would avoid straining relations with senior bureaucrats, would make it easier for the commonwealth to persuade the states to introduce matching shield laws but would still allow Labor to place a tick alongside another election promise. For Senator Faulkner, such a minimalist goal might be problematic. It would form a sharp contrast with his call for cultural change inside the bureaucracy when he was launching reforms last month to the Freedom of Information Act. 

Yet even if the problems with the whistleblower scheme are addressed, there is a more basic problem with Labor's shield law. 

Before the federal election, Labor promised very little on the protection of journalists. It pledged merely to introduce a non-enforceable protocol that would provide guidance on when journalists should not be pursued in court over the identity of their sources. 
the above was an extract only...read the full article
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25344179-5018069,00.html


----------



## Julia (20 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> It's started already. Lindsay Tanner, Minister for Finance, was suggesting on the news tonight that Grech might be mentally unstable. It's an old Stalinist trick to discredit those who don't toe the party line.
> 
> He will probably be bundled out on invalidity grounds.



Yes, I suppose he could be considered 'collateral damage'.
I do hope not.   He must have found yesterday's events really difficult considering the pressure he was under from his superiors to shut up.

Re the investigation by the Federal Police, can they be relied upon to conduct this without bias?   I'm not intending to suggest they are corrupt, but remembering the pressure placed on Mick Keelty in the past to say only what supported the government's line, I can't help wondering if they might be told what to find and not find.


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## rederob (21 June 2009)

kincella
How about using proper quotations for work which is not yours and is poorly attributed.

Grech is clearly of marginal competence, and is not a fit person to put before hearings.  Any public servant worth their salt would present a case based on evidence that was available and sustainable.  Grech appears to have failed both tests.  If ever again he appears to provide evidence I trust he does a better job.

Julia's suggestion that Grech was under pressure to "shut up" is laughable.  He was required to provide a recollection of events as he understood them, and that could be supported by relevant materials.  Parliament takes a dim view of any attempts to nobble - or hobble - public servants that are required to testify at hearings.  

Tainting the Federal Police is equally ludicrous.  They will do their job and report exactly what they find, whether Rudd likes it or not.  This is not like the Haneef case where they relied on a chain of evidence that was poorly based, and adopted inquiry techniques that presumed guilt from the outset.

Nor is this like the Children Overboard affair, where Howard hushed the truth for as long as possible, and buried its findings in report a year later under the innocuous title of "A Certain Maritime Incident".

Pathetic supporters of Howard's decimated Liberal Party eagerly latch onto anything they can, and hurl it at Rudd with vented spleens.  Yet Rudd, unlike Howard, isn't hiding, procrastinating, or looking for scapegoats.  Short of convening a Senate Select Committee, Rudd has unleashed the Audit Office and Federal Police to look for this much talked about evidence that even Turnbull isn't sure is kosher.  

This is one heck of a beat up and Turnbull has been foolish to relentlessly pursue something which he now claims not to have evidence to support.  Just like Johnny falling for the weapons of mass destruction line, on evidence concocted for another purpose.


----------



## Tink (21 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Pathetic supporters of Howard's decimated Liberal Party eagerly latch onto anything they can, and hurl it at Rudd with vented spleens.
> 
> This is one heck of a beat up and Turnbull has been foolish to relentlessly pursue something which he now claims not to have evidence to support.  Just like Johnny falling for the weapons of mass destruction line, on evidence concocted for another purpose.




Well said Rederob


----------



## Sean K (21 June 2009)

I think it would be more prudent not to jump to anyone's defence here. Looks to be some uncertainty as to what's actually gone on.  

And there's no need to be abusive towards any other members to voice your opinion.


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2009)

You are a spoilsport Rederob. You have enjoyed years of Howard hating and now you try to deny Rudd haters a little bit of schadenfreude. You also assume that Rudd haters are former Howard supporters. My objections to Rudd are not based on any ideology, but simply on his obnoxious character.


----------



## Datsun Disguise (21 June 2009)

Tink said:


> Well said Rederob




I disagree, rederob is just throwing out the devoted labour supporters version of events to rebuff the devoted liberal supporters version. 

We are yet to find out the confirmed truth of all this - to me based on what I've seen so far I think that Rudd and Swan are going to be feeling very nervous. This can be sorted out, afterall the Ford Credit CEO can (if he is stupid enough) confirm the contact. A previous post points out that archiving should mean we see if in fact emails where legitimately sent or not. Try to keep an open mind and remember that the simplest explanation is _usually_ the right one.

Kincella - thanks for your post on the whistleblower piece. I was not aware of this stuff existing (wasn't surprised to see Ruddock's name associated wit it though). That to me is really concerning......


----------



## Tink (21 June 2009)

Datsun - I am a swinging voter and I have seen good and bad in both parties

moXJO - I would like nothing better than to see no corruption, but as you and I know, its never going to happen...

As stated in the ABC News --

'Accusations of misconduct are being made by both sides of Federal politics as a scandal about seeking favours for mates continues to grow.'


----------



## Quincy (21 June 2009)

As reported "on-line" by "The Daily Telegraph" today : - 



> *Swan's future hangs by a thread*
> 
> By Glenn Milen - June 21, 2009 12:00am
> 
> ...






> Mr Swan admitted yesterday he had also bought a car from Mr Grant for use in his electorate office, but said he had paid full commercial price.


----------



## Quincy (21 June 2009)

> *Swan calls for Turnbull to resign over email*
> 
> Sunday, June 21, 2009
> 
> ...





Ping Pong


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

Turnbull has now confirmed he has not viewed the printout of a document proported to be an email from the PM's office.

Turnbull, having no confirmation of the authenticity of this document also admitted to not having viewed it himself or senior staffers. He still went ahead and demanded the resignation of our leaders. He also pointed out non of the Liberal party were involved in the creation of the doc.

So this man, by calling for the resignation of our leader and throwing this country into temporary turmoil, is happy to do so on pure speculation anf heresay.

If this email "issue" ends up being a non event, Turnbull should stand down. Even if found to be true, Turnbull should be stood down for misleading the public; he basically has tossed a coin. One would expect an opposition leader would have the good sense to actually view any evidence and then seek to validate the evidence before taking it public.

It shows a lack of integrity, a lack business savvy and poor judgement. I have some magic beans somewhere, it might be time to dust them off and start telemaketing them to Mr Turnbull. Based on his eagerness to jump at opportunities without validity, he may end up being a repeat customer.





cheers,


----------



## pj2105 (21 June 2009)

All parlimenarians have mislead parliment.


----------



## Bafana (21 June 2009)

Mud slinging and whining. What's new?

Better for everyone if they tried to work together for the Aussie Economy.

The whole thing is starting to look like a playground stoush.

My only hope is that the snitch with the bad memory doesn't top himself like in the movies and the matter gets sorted no matter whose wrong and whose right. That said if, Turnblah is wrong he and the Liberals are going to have a long road back.


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2009)

The email affair is just a smokescreen for Rudd to hide behind. Anyone who believes that Rudd didn't ask Swan to look after his mate John Grant, is away with the fairies. Why otherwise would Swan give the matter his special attention. Grant is not a mate of Swan's nor even a constituent.

Swan has been caught out and will have to go, but it will be a sideways move into a good job. He now has too much leverage on Rudd.


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> The email affair is just a smokescreen for Rudd to hide behind



An email affair perpetuated by Turnbull. So are you saying Turnbull started this unfounded saga to allow Rudd to hide behind it? Did I read that correctly?



> Swan has been caught out and will have to go, but it will be a sideways move into a good job. He now has too much leverage on Rudd.




Caught out doing what exactly? By all official accounts, the car dealer has not received a scrap of benefit in this apparent situation. So where is the illegality?

Please shed some light on this on what exactly this car dealer has received, because I've been looking through reports and can't find a damn thing noted.


cheers,


----------



## moXJO (21 June 2009)

Tink said:


> Datsun - I am a swinging voter and I have seen good and bad in both parties
> 
> moXJO - I would like nothing better than to see no corruption, but as you and I know, its never going to happen...
> 
> ...




I say it's a win win all round. Both sides are getting a shake down.

Redrob your not a  union member are you? They sprout similar trash.


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Redrob your not a  union member are you?




I'm going to do a "Turnbull" and make an unsubstanciated, outspoken response and say he's not a union follower. From that name I'm guessing he's a bloody Commie!

cheers,


----------



## Quincy (21 June 2009)

"Rudd crashes John Grant ute"





Cartoon by Nicholson from "The Australian" newspaper: www.nicholsoncartoons.com.au


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> An email affair perpetuated by Turnbull. So are you saying Turnbull started this unfounded saga to allow Rudd to hide behind it? Did I read that correctly?




No, as usual you got it wrong. He is using it to try to divert the heat from him to Turnbull



> Caught out doing what exactly?




Lying to Parliament.


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> No, as usual you got it wrong. He is using it to try to divert the heat from him to Turnbull




As my question is clearly wrong, please explain how. I really don't understand. Are you suggesting the Rudd deliberately leaked this false email to Turnbull? How exactly is Rudd diverting heat? Where did you get your information from?





> Lying to Parliament.




What was the lie? Where is the proof that either Rudd or Swann lied? Is the proof from the email you assume Rudd is hiding behind?

If that is the case how can one hide behind the very evidence that inciminates?

Again, Caliope, as I am alsways wrong, please set me straight. How much did this car dealer gain from this "help?

You seem to dodge responses better that Turnbull.

cheers,


----------



## moXJO (21 June 2009)

I reckon sending a fake email to the press benefits labor a lot more in this situation (we all remember the fake leaflets put out by Libs during the last election). Are the liberals really that stupid as to send an email that can be verified as a fake with a little effort? You would hope they would have learnt after their last effort. 
Turnbull really needs to ball up atm as Labor is turning it around. Either he knows something and is waiting to deliver the killer blow, or he is up the creek.


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2009)

I didn't say you were always wrong Stan, but you seem a bit obtuse today.  You obviously haven't kept up with what is going on. Since you seem to have a thirst for guidance this may help;

The Sunday Telegraph today;

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25664460-5001030,00.html



> KEVIN Rudd may well survive the most serious crisis to hit his government, but Wayne Swan looks to be on shaky ground.
> 
> Evidence in a string of emails between Mr Swan, his staff and Treasury officials, and Senate Economics Committee testimony from many involved, point to a special deal for Mr Rudd's car-dealer friend and supporter John Grant.
> 
> ...






> Firstly, Westminster principles demand that ministers resign if they do not tell the truth in Parliament. Mr Swan told Parliament that Mr Grant received the same assistance as anyone else. He also told the Parliament that he was not aware of the outcome of Mr Grant's case.
> 
> The email trail and Mr Grech's testimony seem to knock out those defences.
> 
> ...


----------



## kincella (21 June 2009)

instead of concentrating on the first email....read all about the other emails that did not disappear....and the mention in these emails of John Grant and how representations were made on his behalf to the Treaurer...ie Swan and Ken Henry the head of Treasury dept...
from the insiders program....I watched to see how they would spin it....and slightly surprised  they were not covering it up...except they had Gillard on...and I cannot stand to listen to a word she says...

ps note...I usually state whenever there is an extract....but missed one yesterday....and was accused of whatever.....
regular readers will note...there is almost always the word extract or ........denoting...another source etc...and always a ref/link to view the article itself...so there is no question for the reader ..was it my work or an extract from an article............

here is the extract from the insiders.................
and note *** this came straight from the senate enquiry on friday...its on film....so it is not an interpretation or muddied by the program...


The public servant suddenly thrust into the spotlight was Godwin Grech who runs the OzCar scheme and his evidence had all the appearance of man who knew too much, struggling with the truth.

(Excerpt from Senate Estimates hearing):

ERIC ABETZ, LIBERAL SENATOR (reading from email): "Salutation Treasurer, both Godwin Grech and I have spoken to John Grant this evening."

You refer to John Grant, John Grant, John Grant. 

GODWIN GRECH, DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY: When the PMO or the Treasurer's office approach you with something, you give it priority.

ERIC ABETZ (reading from email): "Thanks Godwin, great work. Just so you are aware these emails are also going to the Treasurer's home fax."

GODWIN GRECH: I certainly had the impression that he wasn't your average constituent.

ERIC ABETZ: This relates to whether or not the Treasurer has misled the Parliament.

GODWIN GRECH: It was made clear to me that, you know, it was something that had to be managed and that's what I tried to do.

ERIC ABETZ: Good work. Great work Godwin.

GODWIN GRECH: I'm not going to deny the fact that the case of Mr Grant was...

BARNABY JOYCE, NATIONALS SENATE LEADER: Special.

GODWIN GRANT: Was labour intensive.

BARNABY JOYCE: How do you spell "labour" in that?

ERIC ABETZ (reading from email): "Godwin, we really appreciate this."

Can I ask whether the Prime Minister's office made any representations on behalf of Mr John grant?

DAVID MARTINE, DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY: To the best of our ability and we've searched everything we can find, look for, we have not located any correspondence whatsoever, either emails or physical correspondence.

ERIC ABETZ: The answer is quick - yes or no - and we can move on, Chair.

GODWIN GRECH: I am simply not in a position to say anything further to what Mr Martine has said.

ERIC ABETZ: There is of course the suggestion in today's media that such a document exists. Mr Grech, Mr Grech, do those words sound familiar to you?

What about a Mr Charlton, Andrew Charlton?

GODWIN GRECH: I was very frankly distressed this morning when I woke up and read that article.

I'm a public servant and I'm basically in the situation that no public servant should find him or herself in. And within my relationships with...

CHAIR: Sorry Mr Grech...

GODWIN GRECH: No I'll continue, I want to continue. It was very hard this morning going into work and looking my colleagues in the eye. It all came down on my shoulders.

The initial contact I had with respect to John Grant was from the Prime Minister's office.

ERIC ABETZ: Have you seen a document?

GODWIN GRECH: My recollection may well be totally false, faulty, but my recollection, and that's a big qualification, my recollection is that there was a short email from the PMO to me which very simply alerted me to the case of John Grant. But my, my, I don't have the email. We just can't find it. 

ERIC ABETZ: Surely Mr Grech has the capacity to answer this question, whether or not the name Andrew Charlton is, rings a bell.

DAVID MARTINE: Senator...

ERIC ABETZ: No, I don't think your name is Mr Grech, sorry. Will you allow him to answer it?

DAVID MARTINE: He is unsure about any correspondence emails or otherwise from the Prime Minister's office to the Treasury.

GODWIN GRECH: I have to defer to the seniority of Mr Martine on that issue. 

ERIC ABETZ (reading from email): "Thanks Godwin, great work." 

(End of excerpt)

BARRIE CASSIDY, PRESENTER: Well Kevin Rudd has ordered inquiries by the AFP and
http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2009/s2603951.htm


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> I didn't say you were always wrong Stan






Calliope said:


> No, as usual you got it wrong.




Rereading your above quote, I can see the error of my ways, now. And I thought it was pure semantics? 






> , but you seem a bit obtuse today.




Possibly. Cos you were nice enough to send me that link, I'll promise to use more smileys to offer 'tone.' 



> You obviously haven't kept up with what is going on. Since you seem to have a thirst for guidance this may help;




I've been trying. I tend not to read news.com.au and endeavour to find different sources. I do have a thirst for guidance and certainly appreciate yours. Ta. 



cheers,


----------



## GumbyLearner (21 June 2009)

pj2105 said:


> All parlimenarians have mislead parliment.




*Fair tug of the tic-tac* pj, are you sure?


----------



## Sean K (21 June 2009)

I'm a bit behind in this argument, but does it all come back to Steve Lewis?



> Steve Lewis quoted the email, allegedly from Mr Rudd's adviser Andrew Charlton, as saying: "Hi, Godwin, the PM has asked if the car dealer financing vehicle is available to assist ... John Grant Motors, (which) seems to be having trouble getting finance.
> 
> "If you can follow up on this asap that would be very useful."
> 
> Mr Turnbull said he had no copy of the email and had been relying Mr Lewis's reports.




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25667020-601,00.html


----------



## Julia (21 June 2009)

kennas said:


> I think it would be more prudent not to jump to anyone's defence here. Looks to be some uncertainty as to what's actually gone on.
> 
> And there's no need to be abusive towards any other members to voice your opinion.



Your intervention is appreciated, Kennas.  Some members can't help being abusive, sarcastic, etc, it seems.   Says more about them than those they are abusing.




Calliope said:


> Y You also assume that Rudd haters are former Howard supporters. My objections to Rudd are not based on any ideology, but simply on his obnoxious character.



This comment goes for me also.



Quincy said:


> Ping Pong


----------



## Julia (21 June 2009)

rederob said:


> kincella
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would have thought so too.   The footage I watched on The 7.30 Report, however, clearly showed this occurring.  It is further confirmed in the transcript provided by Kincella.   

It's your automatic and passionate defence of the Labor Party which comes across as laughable.   You have concluded complete innocence on the part of Rudd and Swan before the whole affair has been played out.
I'd prefer to reserve judgement at this stage.





> Tainting the Federal Police is equally ludicrous.  They will do their job and report exactly what they find, whether Rudd likes it or not.  This is not like the Haneef case where they relied on a chain of evidence that was poorly based, and adopted inquiry techniques that presumed guilt from the outset.
> 
> Nor is this like the Children Overboard affair, where Howard hushed the truth for as long as possible, and buried its findings in report a year later under the innocuous title of "A Certain Maritime Incident".



You seem to have intimate knowledge of all that goes on with the Federal Police, to the level that allows you to be completely certain of their ethics and non-political alignment.
Then you go on to highlight some of their incompetence.

I hope they always conduct their work without fear or favour.   
If Howard 'hushed the truth', as you put it, why is it not possible for the current government to do the same?





> Pathetic supporters of Howard's decimated Liberal Party eagerly latch onto anything they can, and hurl it at Rudd with vented spleens.



Calliope has appropriately responded to this silly assumption.
Not all of us are philosophically aligned with any particular party.



> Yet Rudd, unlike Howard, isn't hiding, procrastinating, or looking for scapegoats.  Short of convening a Senate Select Committee, Rudd has unleashed the Audit Office and Federal Police to look for this much talked about evidence that even Turnbull isn't sure is kosher.



Yes, here I completely agree.   Rudd so far is doing all he can be expected to do.   As a result he is looking much more healthy than his friend and colleague, Mr Swan, who may be in a bit of trouble.





> This is one heck of a beat up and Turnbull has been foolish to relentlessly pursue something which he now claims not to have evidence to support.  Just like Johnny falling for the weapons of mass destruction line, on evidence concocted for another purpose.



We'll see.  You may be right.  And if the whole chain of emails were to turn out to be manufactured by Turnbull & Co. then he would deserve to be thrown out.   I understand, however, that some of these have already been verified as authentic.

 But if parliament has indeed been lied to, then Turnbull is correct to draw this to the nation's attention.


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2009)

Here's a good laugh from one who is noted for telling porkies.

The Age today;


> Queensland Premier Anna Bligh is backing the federal treasurer and prime minister over the affair.
> 
> "I've known both Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan for a long time," Ms Bligh said.
> 
> ...



 © 200


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

"Mr Rudd and Treasurer Wayne Swan both deny allegations of giving Mr Grant _*preferential treatment*_ in trying to help him gain a government assisted loan."

A member here started a post about his issues with a bank, mortgage broker and his stamp duty grant. He has now called on his MP to look at his case. No offense to the poster in question. I agree that is his right and the MP should look into his case but is this preferential treatment?



cheers,


----------



## rederob (21 June 2009)

kincella said:


> GODWIN GRECH: My recollection may well be totally false, faulty, but my recollection, and that's a big qualification, my recollection is that there was a short email from the PMO to me which very simply alerted me to the case of John Grant. But my, my, I don't have the email. We just can't find it.



David Martine saved Grech from a fatal serve, and he should be grateful.
If Grech had received instruction from PMO then he would have responded to the PMO with an email or some official communication.  To not have it, but nevertheless taint the PMO is sloppy, bordering on incompetent.
The guttersnipes that respond to Rudd on their dislike, rather than evidence, tell the real story: It's just more of the same beat up.

I would concede that Swan may have to tender a better explanation to Parliament if his involvement is greater than initially implied.  That said, he is not the first, and will not be the last MP to more diligently represent a constituent than we might come to expect.  Guilty of doing his job well! Is something we should welcome from our pol lies.


----------



## Tink (21 June 2009)

Nothing will come out of this..

They are both in 'checkmate'

so we will wait to see the outcome..


----------



## Julia (21 June 2009)

rederob said:


> I would concede that Swan may have to tender a better explanation to Parliament if his involvement is greater than initially implied.  That said, he is not the first, and will not be the last MP to more diligently represent a constituent than we might come to expect.  Guilty of doing his job well! Is something we should welcome from our pol lies.



The issue is not how he did his job.
It is whether he lied to the Parliament.


----------



## Julia (21 June 2009)

Tink said:


> Nothing will come out of this..
> 
> They are both in 'checkmate'
> 
> so we will wait to see the outcome..



Your first and third statements contradict each other, Tink.


----------



## kincella (21 June 2009)

Kennas...I dont believe it all hinges on one missing email...the subsequent emails that were sent to and fro swan and henry and grech tell what really happened...and that was the attempt to provide assistance to the car dealer
...who lives in rudd's electorate...not swans
its all on public record...from the senate hearing last Friday....
watch the insiders .... for the  film footage....
at the the heart of the question is....did rudd or swan or anyone lie in parliament about the subject....

it appears they did....


----------



## Sean K (21 June 2009)

kincella said:


> Kennas...I dont believe it all hinges on one missing email...the subsequent emails that were sent to and fro swan and henry and grech tell what really happened...and that was the attempt to provide assistance to the car dealer



Some junior analyst at ASIO or DSD is laughing his @rse off at the moment because they have it all. Your next mobile call is recorded somewhere. Every (EVERY) email is stored and can be retrieved at the drop of a hat. Let's see who's team ASIO is on.


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2009)

rederob said:


> The guttersnipes that respond to Rudd on their dislike, rather than evidence, tell the real story: It's just more of the same beat up.




And of course Rudd brown-nosers could never be guttersnipes even if they roll
in the gutter.


----------



## orr (21 June 2009)

I look forward to the AFP investigation, and the confirmation that Mahomad Haneef both sent, and received  the contested emails and proof of this is stored on a sim card he subsequently lent to his wife's first cousin. I got it straight from Mick Kelty.


----------



## kincella (21 June 2009)

parliament is a bit different...all records must be archived and available for scrutiny if required ...all traces for security of them should be in place....
its a bit different to mobile phone records of some one outside of parliament, or not connected to government...
although with Kelty...he did say his hands were tied...
a bit like Grech...whose superior...tried to shut him up...and then did...
that is not how its supposed to operate...in fact his superior should not have been in the same room...
they are under oath and obliged to tell the truth


----------



## Quincy (21 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> Ping Pong





*Rudd 'email' a distraction: Turnbull*

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/828128/swan-dismisses-calls-for-his-resignation

16:31 AEST Sun Jun 21 2009



> Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is using an alleged email at the centre of the OzCar affair to distract the Australian public from the fact his treasurer misled parliament, Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull says.






> "It was Mr Rudd's doing that Mr Grech was not allowed to talk and that is the question ... I ask Mr Rudd, is why did you shut down Godwin Grech in the Senate on Friday? What do you have to fear?" Mr Turnbull told reporters in Sydney.
> 
> "How can you have the gall, the arrogance to demand the opposition produce an email that it has never claimed to have?
> 
> ...




ping


----------



## Gamblor (21 June 2009)

I really fail to see the issue here. John grant didn't get any money, does it matter if they tried to help him? If misleading is the only argument there must be a hell of a lot of people that should have resigned over the years.

I could understand the media frenzy if this was actually defrauding the tax payer in someway. It just seems so petty and pathetic.


----------



## matty2.0 (21 June 2009)

Well, *somebody* is lying ... who is it???

It's very possible that Turnball could be relying on faulty information by a lower level ranking official (e.g. like how Colin Powell relied on faulty information regarding "weapons of mass destruction" during the invasion of Iraq).

But I think this is quite low of Turnball, to be relying on a side issue to play politics to try and oust Rudd, rather than defeating Rudd on substantive matters that count - policy issues, how to deal with unemployment, economy, international/foreign relations etc ... 

I think Turnball is just playing politics as he is so far behind on the opinion polls, http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25643489-421,00.html:


> _But a closer examination of the Newspoll showed Mr Rudd maintaining a commanding lead as preferred prime minister, with 57 per cent of respondents backing him compared with 25 per cent for Mr Turnbull._






> If misleading is the only argument there must be a hell of a lot of people that should have resigned over the years.




... shouldn't ALL politicians resign then?? I'm sure Turnball and other prime ministers have BSed to the public before to try and win votes???


----------



## MrBurns (21 June 2009)

This isnt about money it's about principle, if Rudd or Swan knowingly mislead Parliament is's game over.


----------



## matty2.0 (21 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> This isnt about money it's about principle, if Rudd or Swan knowingly mislead Parliament is's game over.




And likewise ... if Turnball is misleading parliament by using false emails, it's game over too.


----------



## moXJO (21 June 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> And likewise ... if Turnball is misleading parliament by using false emails, it's game over too.




And what if Labor leaked the fake Email, to put the libs on the spot and direct attention.


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

Gamblor said:


> I really fail to see the issue here. John grant didn't get any money, does it matter if they tried to help him?




From my understanding, it's whether Swann and Co. lied about preferntial treatment to the car yard owner. Clarification on what the term "prefential treatment" actually is as defined in a political sense would be good to know.

It would also be good to know if any other car dealers were individually mentioned in correspondance. This might help to show some clarity on the matter. Swann may well have worked within the guidelines. Heaven forbid, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

cheers,


----------



## MrBurns (21 June 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> And likewise ... if Turnball is misleading parliament by using false emails, it's game over too.




We've already seen the email in the newspapers, why doesn't someone ask THEM to produce it.

I dont really care how it happens but we have to get rid of Rudd, this may be the key, Turnbull has seen the email in the paper like everyone else asked for an explanation, Rudd has tried to turn it around onto Turnbull, he is a master of spin and massaging the truth, he's not worthy of the position.


----------



## matty2.0 (21 June 2009)

Well somebody is lying!!

Can someone post me the link to the email? I haven't seen it yet ....


----------



## Stan 101 (21 June 2009)

Thanks for the tip on news.com.au Cailliope.

Here is a little gem from them. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25668502-29277,00.html

If this news report pans out to be true, I wonder what it will do to Turnbull's credability and career?


cheers,


----------



## Julia (21 June 2009)

Gamblor said:


> I really fail to see the issue here. John grant didn't get any money, does it matter if they tried to help him? If misleading is the only argument there must be a hell of a lot of people that should have resigned over the years.
> 
> I could understand the media frenzy if this was actually defrauding the tax payer in someway. It just seems so petty and pathetic.



The fact that John Grant did not receive any money is beside the point.
What is under debate is whether his request for money received special attention because he is a friend and neighbour of Mr Rudd.

If Mr Grant's request did receive special attention (which seems to be demonstrated by the chain of emails from and to Mr Swan), then that is indeed a potential abuse of taxpayer funds.

Agree with your comment about the number of people who would have misled parliament over the years.

And yes, the issue of itself does seem rather pathetic.   But what is at stake is whether a member of parliament has lied to that parliament.


----------



## Macquack (21 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Rudd....he's a *terminal tosser *and *financial incompetent*.





MrBurns said:


> The *King of spin *is trying to turn it all back on Turnbull, Turnbull isn't the one who *mislead Parliament *and *lied through his teeth *...........thats* Rudds specialty*.





MrBurns said:


> I meet people regularly now who don't just dislike him they hate his *smarmy smart **** guts* and I can see their point.





MrBurns said:


> I dont really care how it happens but we have to get rid of Rudd.
> Rudd ..... he is a *master of spin *and *massaging the truth*, he's *not worthy of the position*.







rederob said:


> The *guttersnipes* that respond to Rudd on their dislike, rather than evidence, tell the real story: It's just more of the same beat up.
> .




I think Rederob is referring to you Burns. 

Your unfounded attacks on Kevin Rudd are tiresome, boring and childish.


----------



## trainspotter (21 June 2009)

Well, well, well, a politician not exactly sticking to the facts as they happened !! Who would have thunk it ?? Mr Swan says the information he received on Mr Grant's case was part of general updates about the auto industry, and he is not resigning. Ummm ... did he admit later that he actually purchased a vehicle from Mr. Grant's dealership? BUT on June 4th in parliament he stated he had no knowledge of any contact from his office with the dealership. Gosh .... I can't remember if I bought that 2007 Kia Sorrento or not. It seems that the smoke and mirrors act by KRudd and his cronies is not being greedily swallowed by the general populace or the media for that matter. 
On Saturday Mr Swan said it was routine for hundreds of pages of information to be forwarded to his home fax while he was in Brisbane and that it did not mean he was paying attention to the case.
Godwin Grech's evidence during the Senate inquiry suggests the Prime Minister misled Parliament, however without the email there is no evidence against Mr Rudd.

So for some reason Mr Grech has decided to change his story. For now, the Government will keep up the line that Mr Grech appeared confused at the inquiry. Glad we cleared that up !


----------



## MrBurns (21 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> I think Rederob is referring to you Burns.
> 
> Your unfounded attacks on Kevin Rudd are tiresome, boring and childish.




My attacks on Rudd are fully justified and just a sample of what the general public is thinking in increasing numbers, thanks for taking the time to bring them all together, an impressive list that sums him up perfectly.

I don't care what you think about my realistic assesments of Rudd, they cant be too boring if you take the time to pull them all together. Excellent work.


----------



## MrBurns (21 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> So for some reason Mr Grech has decided to change his story. For now, the Government will keep up the line that Mr Grech appeared confused at the inquiry. Glad we cleared that up !




There's no doubt My Grech has been leant on very hard by Hier Rudds supporters, I hope the Libs can dig up the festering sore and get the truth out.

Mr Grech appeared confused ???? LOL you must be joking, they wont get away with that BS


----------



## trainspotter (21 June 2009)

Me thinks News Limited claim that this missive was sent on February 19th:

"Hi Godwin, the PM has asked if the car dealer financing vehicle is available to assist a Queensland dealership, John Grant Motors, who seems to be having trouble getting finance. If you can follow up on this asap that would be very useful. Happy to discuss. A."

Guessing that "A" is for Andrew Thomas the treasury official who had sent emails to Godwin Grech.

Conclusion: We know that Wayne Swan has misled parliament. Senate inquiry has proven that paper trail (or is it email trail?) so therefore a card carrying journalist might have fabricated/concocted/just plain lied to sell a few more papers. Is that not his job?


----------



## Macquack (21 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> My attacks on Rudd are fully justified and just a sample of what the general public is thinking in increasing numbers, thanks for taking the time to bring them all together, an impressive list that sums him up perfectly.
> 
> I don't care what you think about my realistic assesments of Rudd, they cant be too boring if you take the time to pull them all together. Excellent work.




It was tedious work going through your foul mouthed posts. 

You are so pre-occupied with denigrating Kevin Rudd, I do wonder if you are really a Liberal Party staffer. 

One consolation, you must be running out of degrading, insulting, rude and hateful adjectives to describe our Prime Minister.


----------



## rederob (21 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Mr Grech appeared confused ???? LOL you must be joking, they wont get away with that BS





> ERIC ABETZ: Have you seen a document?
> 
> GODWIN GRECH: My recollection may well be totally false, faulty, but my recollection, and that's a big qualification, my recollection is that there was a short email from the PMO to me which very simply alerted me to the case of John Grant. But my, my, I don't have the email. We just can't find it.



I must agree with MrBurns. He didn't appear confused, he *was *confused.  Turnbull won't get away with the BS he unleashed on the pretext he actually had some evidence.

I listened, live, to most of the parliamentary sessions that covered this matter.  Swan's avoidance of some of the detail that has now emerged is about all that is in question.  In context, the adept avoidance of Howard's team in when questioned about the Children Overboard affair makes this look like a namby pamby kindy hissy fit.  Only Turnbull could have given this "life", even if it becomes the death of him.


----------



## rederob (21 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Guessing that "A" is for Andrew Thomas the treasury official who had sent emails to Godwin Grech.



Your guess is as wrong as your conclusions.  Perhaps phone a friend?


----------



## MrBurns (21 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> It was tedious work going through your foul mouthed posts.




They're only foul to a Krudd supporter, tell me what is it you like about him ? Is it his repeated tantrums to insult and abuse his staff ? or his arrogance being as he is under the impression he understands economics, the Chinese had a good laugh at his "essay" on the GFC or is it how he single handedly sucked thousand of FHB's into the housing bubble, many of whom will have deep regrets in a short time.

Yes it's hard to understand how anyone could think he's ok, except those who got cheques in the mail perhaps.



> One consolation, you must be running out of degrading, insulting, rude and hateful adjectives to describe our Prime Minister.




He might be YOUR prime minister but I dont consider him mine, just an imposter temporarily in the position , doing as much damage as possible while he's there ......unfortunately.


----------



## Calliope (21 June 2009)

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/dodgy-brothers-rudd-swan-utegate-emails/



> It doesn’t matter whether Mr Swan received emails at home via his fax machine as to whether Mr Grant would get assistance or not. What matters is that he received the emails at all. It wouldn’t matter if he was at is office, at home, at the pub, or on Mars - what matters is that Mr Grant is a mate of his and as a minister of the Crown you don’t help your mates get access or try to get access to public money. You don’t even risk creating the perception that that is what you are doing. And Wayne Swan has gone well beyond merely creating the perception.
> 
> To this end the fake email is almost now a red herring in this debate. It still matters for a few reasons - unless the Auditor-General inquiry proves otherwise, and Rudd’s confidence suggests that it won’t, it does remove the suggestion that Kevin Rudd has misled.  But it doesn’t matter for Malcolm Turnbull, because Turnbull wasn’t shopping the fake email about, meaning that the calls for his resignation are absurd.
> 
> All that really matters is the string of genuine emails involving Wayne Swan and his office and John Grant, which don’t so much suggest as scream that Treasury boffin Godwin Grech was bang-on in his estimates testimony on Friday that this Ipswich car dealer is not just another constituent.


----------



## knocker (21 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> They're only foul to a Krudd supporter, tell me what is it you like about him ? Is it his repeated tantrums to insult and abuse his staff ? or his arrogance being as he is under the impression he understands economics, the Chinese had a good laugh at his "essay" on the GFC or is it how he single handedly sucked thousand of FHB's into the housing bubble, many of whom will have deep regrets in a short time.
> 
> Yes it's hard to understand how anyone could think he's ok, except those who got cheques in the mail perhaps.
> 
> ...




Krudd by name and krudd by nature. He has NFI about anything, and nor do the mindless kuckleheads who voted him in. Enjoy your recession aus.


----------



## Tink (22 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Only Turnbull could have given this "life", even if it becomes the death of him.




I agree. Waste of time and resources if you ask me..


----------



## Quincy (22 June 2009)

> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25659302-5001021,00.html




There are claims surfacing that the photo (accessed via the above referenced link) was actually taken on Kevin Rudd's own personal Blackberry and somehow got out to the media (the photo was not taken by Kevin Rudd). 

It has also been claimed that it was actually Andrew Charlton who made the approach to Malcolm Turnbull at the Ball (and not vice versa as claimed). 

According to Andrew Charlton's version of the conversation : - 



> "You should not lie to protect your boss," Mr Turnbull said, according to a statement today by Andrew Charlton, Mr Rudd's economic specialist.
> 
> "This OzCar issue will be very damaging for you," he quoted Mr Turnbull as saying. OzCar is the Government's finance body for car dealers, established when credit was tight earlier this year.
> 
> "You know and I know there is documentary evidence that you have lied."




As stated in the newspaper article (as per the above referenced link) : - 



> Mr Charlton said in his statement that at the end of the conversation he had walked out of Parliament House where he noticed a colleague, and had relayed what happened to her.




Malcolm Turnbull has again over the weekend disputed the above version of events as claimed by Andrew Charlton. He had said at the time (last week) as stated in the above referenced newspaper article : - 



> Mr Turnbull said that he did have a conversation with Mr Rudd's economic policy adviser Andrew Charlton at the mid-winter ball at Parliament House on Wednesday night.
> 
> But he described as "inaccurate and incomplete" a file note prepared by Mr Charlton which detailed the conversation in which it is alleged Mr Turnbull threatened him about the OzCar issue.




The plot thickens.


----------



## Quincy (22 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> There are claims surfacing that the photo (accessed via the above referenced link) was actually taken on Kevin Rudd's own personal Blackberry and somehow got out to the media (the photo was not taken by Kevin Rudd).




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25669042-5013871,00.html




> Rudd instructed his staff to use *a BlackBerry *to get a picture of Charlton and Turnbull talking. After the ball, Charlton issued a statement saying he had been threatened and bullied by Turnbull, who had warned him not to lie over the affair.




The claims that it was Kevin Rudd's personal BlackBerry may not be true.


----------



## trainspotter (22 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Your guess is as wrong as your conclusions.  Perhaps phone a friend?




Hmmmmmmmmm ... let's stick to the subject matter at hand shall we. I notice a fair bit of diatribe witten here and it seems that we have firmly established that some of the posts are written by the factional left and others by the extreme right with a smattering of common sense posts in between. This is a helathy debate on our government and it's internal workings ... no matter how flawed the system is. 

By the way:- During Senate hearings on Friday, senior Treasury official Godwin Grech said he recalled an email from Mr Rudd's office saying Mr Grant's case should receive his attention. 

Mr Grech heads OzCar, the Government's financing arm to which Mr Grant applied for help. 

News Limited journalist Steve Lewis quoted the email, allegedly from Mr Rudd's adviser Andrew Charlton, as saying: "Hi, Godwin, the PM has asked if the car dealer financing vehicle is available to assist ... John Grant Motors, (which) seems to be having trouble getting finance. If you can follow up on this asap that would be very useful. A "

So therefore my guess and conclusion is 100% accurate. Play the ball and not the man next time Rederob. Sheeesh !!


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

rederob said:


> I must agree with MrBurns. He didn't appear confused, he *was *confused.  Turnbull won't get away with the BS he unleashed on the pretext he actually had some evidence.
> 
> I listened, live, to most of the parliamentary sessions that covered this matter.  Swan's avoidance of some of the detail that has now emerged is about all that is in question.  In context, the adept avoidance of Howard's team in when questioned about the Children Overboard affair makes this look like a namby pamby kindy hissy fit.  Only Turnbull could have given this "life", even if it becomes the death of him.





What BS from Turnbull? It was labors spin on the situation that brought the email to attention, not Turnbull. 
What’s the Children Overboard affair got to do with it? 
What’s any past Liberal affair got to do with it?
Trying to play down one incident over another reeks of cover-up.
Whatever the truth is I'm sure it will come out.

Not only is the PM and his cronies good at spin but it also appears their die hard supporters are as well.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> What BS from Turnbull? It was labors spin on the situation that brought the email to attention, not Turnbull.
> What’s the Children Overboard affair got to do with it?
> What’s any past Liberal affair got to do with it?
> Trying to play down one incident over another reeks of cover-up.
> ...




I love the way the looney left trot out *children overboard *over and over again ,they live in a twisted past and are only still breathing because of Govt handouts no doubt. It's seriously embarrassing that these latter day hippies cant move on and admit they were wrong and the real issue was preventing illegal immigrants flooding in.

There's no BS from Turnbull, KRudd has been caught out and like any shallow, nerd trying to be a real man he's trying to smart **** his way out of it, no doubt he will cheat swerve dodge and whimper his way out of this one because that's the insect that he is.


----------



## Pimping (22 June 2009)

All I can say is the militant union cronies and their socialist naive boozer mates are now able to see Krudd's real political aptitude, essentially zero. GOOD LUCK, I didn't vote for him.


----------



## kincella (22 June 2009)

Barnaby Joyce said on radio this am....the investigations will turn up nothing...since the PM can direct where they look.....he said words to the affect...pm will send them looking in the bedroom....but not in the kitchen, because the stuff is in the kitchen......saw something else about excluding swan and his dept.....what the.....but swans in the centre stage of it....
and the krudd knows turnbull does not have anything...hence thats why he is asking turnbull for it....more smoke screens
has anybody asked the news reporter who supposedly  has it...to hand it over .....no...why not....because he might...
its all smoke and mirrors...as usual...
what about the 60 odd unhappy staffers who have left the pm's office....
I am inclined to think...they are typical bully boys....forget about the truth...just bully your way out.....
and funny...they are wishing gillard was not overseas...sticking her nose into Israel...they call her a big gun....they want her to defend the other bullies back home...


----------



## Calliope (22 June 2009)

I listened to Rudd on AM this morning. He ignored any questions but just kept elaborating on his spin that the missing email is the whole substance of the case against him. He is a very slippery customer indeed. The media seem to have accepted his spin that the heat is on Turnbull now to produce a document. Rudd is quite cocky and appears to have all bases covered.

The email is is not pivotal  in this scandal. The real question is not whether the PM's' office put pressure on the *Treasury* to give Grant preferential treatment, but whether Rudd pressured the *Treasurer* to smooth the way for Grant. Which he subsequently did, and denied doing in Parliament.

Everything else is a red herring. Swan only has to sit tight. He has the wood on Rudd.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

kincella said:


> Barnaby Joyce said on radio this am....the investigations will turn up nothing...since the PM can direct where they look.....he said words to the affect...pm will send them looking in the bedroom....but not in the kitchen, because the stuff is in the kitchen......saw something else about excluding swan and his dept.....what the.....but swans in the centre stage of it....
> *and the krudd knows turnbull does not have anything...hence thats why he is asking turnbull for it....more smoke screens*
> has anybody asked the news reporter who supposedly  has it...to hand it over .....no...why not....because he might...
> its all smoke and mirrors...as usual...
> ...




Definitely more smoke and mirrors involved.

Have you ever thought that maybe the 60 staffers just weren't good enough Kincella?


----------



## kincella (22 June 2009)

half his staff within a year...thats a huge turnover...its more about the 'hissy fits' he has with his staff....and  gillard is not far behind with about 10 less...same reason....
if staff do not give them the answers they want....forget about the truth...then a hissy fit ensures...and staff sacked or resign to avoid more fits..
actually you can see the results....every school receiving a gym....regardless if they already have one....forget about getting better teachers..etc
supposed to be about jobs....but the jobs are not going to locals...
almost everything they touched they have stuffed.
too busy doing photo shoots or overseas on trips...forget about any thing needing serious attention back here....its decisions made on the run at the spur of the moment..


----------



## Calliope (22 June 2009)

In SMH today Paul Sheehan has labelled Turnbull, Hockey and Pyne as the Bruiser,the Boof and the Bore. I have to agree. Rudd has good cause to be cocky. 

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-bruiser-the-boof-and-the-bore-20090621-csij.html?page=2



> Pyne is part of a three-headed monster - the bruiser, the boof and the bore - that is never going to get traction against Kevin Rudd, no matter how many Labor mates they uncover who received very special treatment from the Prime Minister's chief surrogate, fall guy and Nambour High School mate, Treasurer Wayne Swan.
> 
> Because if the bruiser (Turnbull), the boof (shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey) and the bore (Pyne) represent the point of the sword of the Federal Opposition, it is a blunt instrument, a non-lethal weapon, the bluntest instrument the party has had in 13 years, which happens to be the time when Paul Keating departed and Peter Costello took control of the economy, and question time.
> 
> The bruiser, the boof and the bore look worse with Costello's pending departure, because the party has nowhere else to go for the foreseeable future, one reason why the Prime Minister is assiduously positioning himself to call an election for this November if he thinks it suits him best.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

From nineMSN - 



> Mr Turnbull wants to hear more from the Treasury official who told a Senate inquiry on Friday that he could recall Mr Rudd's office making an initial representation on Mr Grant's behalf.
> 
> The official - Godwin Grech - was shut down by Labor senators and his own Treasury senior official, Mr Turnbull said.
> 
> "He wanted to say more about that email, but the minute he talked about it they jumped on him like a tonne of bricks and basically prevented him from giving his testimony," he told Macquarie Radio Network.




Nothing to hide eh ??? ROFL

I hope these creeps dont get away with this and yes I wish the Libs had more mongrel in them right now.


----------



## skyQuake (22 June 2009)

Anyone watching it now? Hilarious crapfest


----------



## Quincy (22 June 2009)

> *Treasury official's house raided over OzCar*
> 
> 
> The house of the public servant at the centre of the OzCar email scandal has been raided by investigators.
> ...





http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/828312/ozcar-furore-set-to-dominate-parliament

11:49 AEST Mon Jun 22 2009


----------



## kincella (22 June 2009)

well they found the email...it came from treasury dept, well maybe grech was behind all this....bring it out to the open...take the blame...

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25670178-29277,00.html


----------



## matty2.0 (22 June 2009)

Turnball Relying on faulty information. Makes him look silly really.
Bad move.


----------



## Agentm (22 June 2009)

the australain was responded to, and told it was a false email, before they did the story and in response to their inquiry..

turnbull knew it was fake, and ducked it for a few days now when asked if he had a copy, saying, " i wont comment on whether i have seen a copy or not"

the feds are firstly wasting no time trying to trace where the claimed email was from, who sent the email, then use whatever means they have to determine if that email came to him or not,, which is not at all  difficult..

it should be the downfall of turnbull..


----------



## Calliope (22 June 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> Turnball Relying on faulty information. Makes him look silly really.
> Bad move.




Yes that's right. Very bad tactics. That had Swan dead to rights for lying to parliament, and they foolishly went after bigger game. I just listened to Abbot take the ugly duckling apart while talking to the censure motion against Turnbull.
He nailed him fair and square.

But it won't make a scrap of difference. The bully boys opposite are in full control.


----------



## prawn_86 (22 June 2009)

Who cares?


----------



## Beej (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> From nineMSN -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now I'm ROFL!!!!! Look's like the "creeps" won't be getting away with it after all - but the creeps don't look like turning out to be who you presumed they were in this case, mongrels or not!  More like just plain stupid to rely on fake "evidence" - Senator Bill Hefferman vs Justice M. Kirby all over again, but this time it's the big boys....



prawn_86 said:


> Who cares?




I care because this is friggin hilarious!!!

Cheers,

Beej


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

Gumby reaches for the :jerry

*Live utegate stoush*

http://media.theage.com.au/national/breaking-news/live-utegate-stoush-597513.html


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Who cares if it's fake Rudd should go anyway for crimes against manhood and aussieness in general.


----------



## Tink (22 June 2009)

......and I thought children werent allowed in Parliament


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Who cares if it's fake Rudd should go anyway for crimes against manhood and aussieness in general.




crimes against truth, crimes against good taste, crimes against earwax, crimes against pigeon toed people who are , I believe taking up a collection to get his gait corrected so they wont be identified with him, crimes against closet homos who marry a rich woman and hide behind her talent and live off her earnings, the crimes are endless............


----------



## Quincy (22 June 2009)

Tink said:


> ......and I thought children werent allowed in Parliament




. .  . .


----------



## Quincy (22 June 2009)

22.06.2009 - 2:00pm:

POLICE have raided Treasury official Godwin Grech's home over the Utegate affair amid claims a key email is fake *and Mr Grech has links to a Liberal adviser.*

Source - "The daily telegraph - Online".


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> 22.06.2009 - 2:00pm:
> 
> POLICE have raided Treasury official Godwin Grech's home over the Utegate affair amid claims a key email is fake *and Mr Grech has links to a Liberal adviser.*
> 
> Source - "The daily telegraph - Online".




How stupid would you have to be to try a trick like that ?


----------



## petervan (22 June 2009)

Bad timing by Costello. Who is going to replace Turnbill.
Better than a episode of Seinfeld


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

*AFP want to speak to former Turnbull staffer*

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25670935-12377,00.html

A STAFFER at the heart of the claim of a "fake email" is understood to have left Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull's office in recent weeks.

The Punch reports Federal Police officers are "keen to speak to an advisor inside Mr Turnbull's office, who formerly worked at Treasury" in connection with a faked email at the centre of the Utegate mess.

The ABC reported earlier that an email had been found on the Treasury computer system which had been sent to the home account of Godwin Grech, a top Treasury official.

AAP reported the email appeared to have been "concocted" inside the Treasury.


----------



## matty2.0 (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> *AFP want to speak to former Turnbull staffer*
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25670935-12377,00.html
> 
> ...




Maybe the treasury staffer(s) were secret spies working for the labor party ...


----------



## Duckman#72 (22 June 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Who cares?




Well said.

Is this the best of Australian Politics? 

Both sides have behaved very poorly, mainly by climbing all over honesty, respect, protocol and integrity in their haste to sit on the high horse that enables them to shout ....."You MUST resign!!!". 

Turnbull's performance on what has been proven to be a fraudulent email is very unimpressive and Rudd's response, considering an AFP investigation is still being carried out also reflects badly.

Unfortunately it would appear that as the truth unfolds, most of the blood in the water seems to have stemmed from other sharks. With hindsight it is hard to believe the feeding frenzy started with the equivalent of a guppy with a slightly wounded dorsal fin. Of course there will be those that argue that the Libs started all of this, and then those that argue the opposite - but it would seem that it will now be settled as an easy out -"someone in the treasury department". 

Turnbull walks away looking like a dope, the Coalition in general looks disorganised and somehow Swan and Rudd will actually end up smelling of less **** than their opponents (if that is a positive).  

Why don't we make our politicians more accountable? Maybe enforce a policy that states that "everytime a member of parliament calls for a resignation that doesn't eventuate, they lose 5% of their base salary". Nothing annoys me more than both sides of the house yelling "resign! resign!" at each other, trying to gain an upper hand.

Duckman


----------



## Kez180 (22 June 2009)

We should just scrap the whole representative system...

Every citizen with suffrage should be able to vote on each issue that comes forward. 

In order to earn suffrage there should be a requirement such as 12 Months Military service, degree qualification, public service such as police/ambulance etc... 

my 2 c

Lets Stage a Coup


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## kincella (22 June 2009)

another twist...the Liberal staffer has denied any involvement....he knew Godwin Grech because he used to work in his office.....
maybe it was just Grech after all working alone  ???
Malcom does not want a double dissolution ...or so he says....maybe we will have one after all....anyone else embarrassed about all of this....
maybe they should all be thrown out...both parties I mean

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25670087-5007133,00.html


----------



## matty2.0 (22 June 2009)

We need a new thread ...

"Should Turnball step down?"


----------



## jono1887 (22 June 2009)

this is quite hilarious, but i would like to see what happens now... will anyone be resigning


----------



## Timmy (22 June 2009)

Why has Gordon Ramsay's involvement not been mentioned at all?


----------



## son of baglimit (22 June 2009)

this is going to be an unpopular post, but here goes.

ATTENTION ALL LABOR HATING ASFers.

please put your hand up if you, in any way, feel just a bit silly in constantly posting anti 'current alp government' posts here. whether its your current occupation, wealth, religion or whatever, after the days events dont you feel a little silly. politicians are politicians - whatever side of the chamber they sit - end of story.

note:dont assume my political leanings either.


----------



## matty2.0 (22 June 2009)

jono1887 said:


> this is quite hilarious, but i would like to see what happens now... will anyone be resigning




If I were Rudd, I would keep pursuing Turnball's resignation, b/c other than Turnball, the Liberal Party don't have anyone else who could challenge for the leadership vis-a-vis Rudd. 
Costello has perfect timing. lol


----------



## Quincy (22 June 2009)

> *Turnbull censured over OzCar affair*
> 
> Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull was censured in federal parliament on Monday as the controversial OzCar affair dominated the national political debate.
> 
> Politicians voted along party lines to censure the opposition leader, who the government says is entangled with a false email at the centre of allegations regarding the taxpayer-funded finance scheme for car dealers




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=828312


----------



## rederob (22 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Turnbull has turned a right of citizenry into a three ringed circus where he, as Ringmaster, is managing to call the shots.  It is an act of great buffoonery where, as the curtain falls, he will be revealed as the Clown he is.



In the absence of a "fat lady", Joe Hockey is rehearsing his Parliamentary singing engagement tomorrow.


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

son of baglimit said:


> this is going to be an unpopular post, but here goes.
> 
> ATTENTION ALL LABOR HATING ASFers.
> 
> ...




It’s all to do with which side will $hit on you more.

Some of Labors policies are as backward as you can get. 
I have interest in the direction of the construction industry. The abcc is about to be abolished, and the unions allowed free reign round constructions sites once again. I remember just how bad it was and the crap that use to go on. It's also a blow for small business. Unfortunately all of this will also hit consumers.

 Some of the labs other policies will also make life difficult for business. It's like a step back in time to the bad old days
Just one of the reasons I don't like labor. And thus seperating one politician from another.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Lesson to be learned from this is dont believe what's printed as fact in Australia's most respected newspapers. 

They had a photo of the email, everything was said to be on the level, but no, it turns out otherwise.

Turnbull naturally expected this to be true and it wasn't. he should have said "subject to the production of the email and proof of it's authenticity" Rudd should resign etc etc

The whole thing is a farce, BUT Swan probably did mislead Parliament, so resign Swan, hand it over to...........Lindsay Tanner, at least we might get some sense out of him.


----------



## son of baglimit (22 June 2009)

well done guys - this does resemble decent discussion and argument, rather then blatant labor bashing. i thought the news website was for that.

please continue.


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> If I were Rudd, I would keep pursuing Turnball's resignation, b/c other than Turnball, the Liberal Party don't have anyone else who could challenge for the leadership vis-a-vis Rudd.
> Costello has perfect timing. lol




LOL something I didn't think about. Would Costello take the reigns if TBull gets turfed?
As it stands the opposition barely puts up a fight over anything. They really need to lift their game.


----------



## Dangerous Dave (22 June 2009)

matty2.0 said:


> If I were Rudd, I would keep pursuing Turnball's resignation, b/c other than Turnball, the Liberal Party don't have anyone else who could challenge for the leadership vis-a-vis Rudd.
> Costello has perfect timing. lol




What you don't think hockey isn't sitting at the back, licking his lips and it ain't at the pies.


----------



## Dangerous Dave (22 June 2009)

son of baglimit said:


> well done guys - this does resemble decent discussion and argument, rather then blatant labor bashing. i thought the news website was for that.
> 
> please continue.



Dont' you mean Whingepool, sorry Whirlpool.


----------



## basilio (22 June 2009)

> Lesson to be learned from this is dont believe what's printed as fact in Australia's most respected newspapers.
> 
> They had a photo of the email, everything was said to be on the level, but no, it turns out otherwise.
> 
> ...




Now exactly why should we be surprised about doubting the authenticity of a document produced to destroy a political opponent?

It was along time ago (1975) but I believe it was The Australian that produced a front page  photo of Whitlam sitting alone with a caption saying how isolated the then Prime Minister was. That was because they had airbrushed out the other present ministers.... neat trick.

It was the great artiste Peter Reith who cut and pasted  photos sent from the Navy to show that refugees had thrown their children overboard when in fact the navy was rescuing people from a sinking boat ! That juicy piece of calculated disinformation  defined that election and was a big factor in the Liberal victory.

And lets not forget the electorate in Sydney  last election where Liberal members created false posters purported to be from Labour sympathizers to make Labour look like supporters of Iraq. Unfortunately they were sprung red handed and it was a real ugly look....

So a number of us  have very good  reason to be skeptical about such "evidence". 

In the circumstances I think Turnball should resign. Given the recent history of the Liberal party in manufacturing evidence he should have had rock solid proof that the email was legit (or at the very least unable to be proven a lie...) before he  put his nuts on the line. 

The fact is that Rudd is very tough and seems relatively clean. It would have been foreseeable that attacking Ruddd's fundamental integrity  *had to be absolutely provable* or the counter attack would be ferocious.  It's a big call saying the PM is a liar and discovering your evidence has been faked by (probably) your own team.  _(Does anyone here suggest this was just a very clever Labour ruse to give Turnball enough rope to hang himself ? Why not . It makes as much sense as many other comments...)_


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

Turntable probably won't even have to resign. I'm sure Obama, GW Bush, Rubin, Geithner and/or Henry Paulson will be on the blower to Rudd lauding the fact that he's an ex-Goldman Sucks Alumni alike and just too valuable to be marched out at this stage of proceedings.

The bigger picture for this scandal is the OZCar bailout package. Which of course is very similar to the many US Treasury policies at present. It's really not that dissimilar.

I agree 100% with son of baglimit here. A lot of the resident ALP-bashers refuse to acknowledge the distinction between industrial capital and finance capital. They are two completely different things. But even though it was finance capital that was hugely to blame for this mess, they just insist on bashing the ALP, the Unions & the battlers without even a mutter about the orgy of incompetent finance capitalists who invented the Financial Weapons of Mass Destruction as Buffett would put it.

Oh well if US hegemonic economic thinking has hoodwinked all the dyed-in the wool ALP-haters in Australia , to believe that the marriage of finance capital and industrial capital are not the cause of this, then of course how could any knowledge of economics and/or the fascism that results from it make them realize that there will be no recovery anytime soon. Because the bankers refuse to accept that it is them and not the factory owners or the people that work in them that are the real problem that created this mess.

The only problem is that Labor in Australia, UK & the Dem's in the US have been rewarding the same bankers for this Global Financial Disaster with advisory government jobs ie. Treasury, restacking the SEC and all with taxpayers dollars. That's the only way they can keep the loans intact with third-world communists and cheap labour generating despot overlords.

I bet Obama would be willing to give Turntable a job. He did a good job at valuing the **** over at HIH before it collapsed.

Anyway, what would I know. Not as much as the former chief economist at the IMF and current MIT Economics Professor.

May 2009
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

“By marrying government capital—taxpayer capital—with private-sector capital and providing financing, you can enable those investors to then go after those assets at a price that makes sense for the investors and at a price that makes sense for the banks.” Kashkari didn’t mention anything about what makes sense for the third group involved: the taxpayers. 

Recovery? Ask the taxpayers?


----------



## Tink (22 June 2009)

basilio said:


> In the circumstances I think Turnball should resign. Given the recent history of the Liberal party in manufacturing evidence he should have had rock solid proof that the email was legit (or at the very least unable to be proven a lie...) before he  put his nuts on the line.
> 
> The fact is that Rudd is very tough and seems relatively clean. It would have been foreseeable that attacking Ruddd's fundamental integrity  *had to be absolutely provable* or the counter attack would be ferocious.  It's a big call saying the PM is a liar and discovering your evidence has been faked by (probably) your own team.  _(Does anyone here suggest this was just a very clever Labour ruse to give Turnball enough rope to hang himself ? Why not . It makes as much sense as many other comments...)_




I agree with you 
I, for one, am sick to death of Turnball's games and he shouldnt be allowed to continuousily get away with it..
How dare he order all this?
Who the hell is he?

He has to learn a lesson that he cant keep accusing people and wasting a week of this sort of rubbish...
I knew already this was going to be a waste of taxpayers money and time..

Havent they got a country to run?


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2009)

basilio said:


> _(Does anyone here suggest this was just a very clever Labour ruse to give Turnball enough rope to hang himself ? Why not . It makes as much sense as many other comments...)_



That possibility has crossed my mind.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

drsmith said:


> That possibility has crossed my mind.




Maybe but unlike Ralph Willis (he never worked for Goldman Sachs) who was fed a dud memo by the young libs, he probably will not be forced to resign.


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2009)

According to Tony Abbott......


> A member of parliament can squander billions of dollars, a member of parliament can run naked down George Street and survive but a member of parliament cannot mislead this place and survive.




http://www.smh.com.au/national/ute-saga-puts-brakes-on-parliament-20090622-ct80.html?page=2

That does not exactly inspire confidence.


----------



## Calliope (22 June 2009)

I concede gloating rights to the lefties. The Coalition front bench are clearly outmatched when it comes to gutter fighting.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

basilio said:


> Now exactly why should we be surprised about doubting the authenticity of a document produced to destroy a political opponent?




I'm suprised and disappointed that this story got a run without proof, I don't believe a lot in the media but the printed media has to maintain it's credibility or die.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> I concede gloating rights to the lefties. The Coalition front bench are clearly outmatched when it comes to gutter fighting.




I don't see what the lefties should be gloating about either. There should be no taxpayer dollars going into bailing out car dealerships.

There are many more deserved things the taxpayers dollars could be spent on. 

I don't see how the righties can gloat either it wasn't Costello or Turntable and his buddies that made our banks relatively safe in this environment. It was the foundation of the four pillars rule and the maintenance of solid lending rules under the Corps law by Keating that kept our banks safe from the meltdown.

Hopefully this won't turn into yet another famous ASF one-eyed idealogues thread.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I don't see what the lefties should be gloating about either. There should be no taxpayer dollars going into bailing out car dealerships.
> 
> There are many more deserved things the taxpayers dollars could be spent on.




Couldn't agree more, people are living on the streets and our tax dollars are bailing out car salesmen ? I feel sick.

The banks are safe mainly because they are protected and have huge profitability because well.....they can. No real competition here.


----------



## turnrude (22 June 2009)

*Turnball thought he won an extra ball*

in his one hand bandit game. Despite his $$$ he is still a fckin peasant, as far as I can see... and hear.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Couldn't agree more, people are living on the streets and our tax dollars are bailing out car salesmen ? I feel sick.
> 
> The banks are safe mainly because they are protected and have huge profitability because well.....they can. No real competition here.




I'm glad Turntable looks less likely to import the now bankrupt de-regulatory ideology of the likes of Goldman Sucks et al. Tickled pink to tell you the truth!


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I'm glad Turntable looks less likely to import the now bankrupt de-regulatory ideology of the likes of Goldman Sucks et al. Tickled pink to tell you the truth!




Everyone's been bitching for years about the greedy banks but ironically that's the reason they are strong today........how about that.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Everyone's been bitching for years about the greedy banks but ironically that's the reason they are strong today........how about that.




No doubt Mr.Burns, but you can thank our regulatory system for not having the slums and tent cities scattered across the country as the result of unfettered lending practices. Oh and also Keating!


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> No doubt Mr.Burns, but you can thank our regulatory system for not having the slums and tent cities scattered across the country as the result of unfettered lending practices. Oh and also Keating!




Keating isn't he the one living overseas and who calls Australia barbaric ? 

The regulatory system has helped and banks have been able to apply some standards to lending becuse they've been swimming in profits anyway.

Just watching 4 Corners how kids are abused and murdered for being "possessed" in Nigeria, bloody awful, we have no problems believe me.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Keating isn't he the one living overseas and who calls Australia barbaric ?
> 
> The regulatory system has helped and banks have been able to apply some standards to lending becuse they've been swimming in profits anyway.
> 
> ...




Keating was unique. He did use a lot of colourful adjectives when he was PM. 
But there has been no comparable match since IMHO!


----------



## rederob (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Everyone's been bitching for years about the greedy banks but ironically that's the reason they are strong today........how about that.



You know as much about our banking system as you knew about this affair; diddly squat.  Our banks are strong because of the prudent regulatory regime that they must comply with, not because they rip us off with unjustifiable transaction costs.

I forgot to ask, is the rumour true that you are cloning more feet for yourself, having shot both of your own on so many occasions?


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Keating was unique. He did use a lot of colourful adjectives when he was PM.
> But there has been no comparable match since IMHO!




He was never voted in, so thats probably in his favor when you look at those who actually were voted in


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Keating isn't he the one living overseas and who calls Australia barbaric ?
> 
> The regulatory system has helped and banks have been able to apply some standards to lending becuse they've been swimming in profits anyway.
> 
> ...




Also take a look at North America and result of flawed lending practices.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/06/tent-city-usa.html


----------



## rederob (22 June 2009)

Sorry Gumby. You beat me to the posting punch as I took a long call from John Grant as I was typing some Burnt offerings.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

rederob said:


> You know as much about our banking system as you knew about this affair; diddly squat.  Our banks are strong because of the prudent regulatory regime that they must comply with, not because they rip us off with unjustifiable transaction costs.
> 
> I forgot to ask, is the rumour true that you are cloning more feet for yourself, having shot both of your own on so many occasions?




Let me guess, in real life you're a bully and no one likes you ? 
It's fairly obvious. LOL


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

rederob said:


> You know as much about our banking system as you knew about this affair; diddly squat.  Our banks are strong because of the prudent regulatory regime that they must comply with, not because they rip us off with unjustifiable transaction costs.




The US is one of the most heavily regulated as well. It was just that our banks were a bit slow with the program, otherwise we would probably have followed suit. It was probably more dumb luck then anything.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> He was never voted in, so thats probably in his favor when you look at those who actually were voted in




You mean like Alexander Downer.

Hewson had the electorate and still got done...by Keating in an official "unwinnable" nationwide election. Do you recall? 

I can only recall the Freddy Kruger like T-shirts of Fightback


----------



## rederob (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> The US is one of the most heavily regulated as well. It was just that our banks were a bit slow with the program, otherwise we would probably have followed suit. It was probably more dumb luck then anything.



We are moving off topic, but you need to get acquainted with systemic removals of US banking regulations that significantly opened the gate to the collapse of many of its financial institutions.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> The US is one of the most heavily regulated as well. It was just that our banks were a bit slow with the program, otherwise we would probably have followed suit. It was probably more dumb luck then anything.




The banks were always smart arses making people beg for loans UNTIL RECENTLY so they are protected by their own arrogance, abandoned late in the piece in a grab for business, but there weren't enough of those sub prime loans to put them in trouble.
They will be under considerable stress in the future as the housing market declines and many including Rudds guinea pigs (FHB) fall over, but hey ! all they'll do is raise fees elsewhere to make up the difference.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> You mean like Alexander Downer.




The only better example of the failure of democracy is Rudd.


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

rederob said:


> We are moving off topic, but you need to get acquainted with systemic removals of US banking regulations that significantly opened the gate to the collapse of many of its financial institutions.




Yes moving off a bit, and would bore too many to death. 

Read JC posts. Sums it up better than I could http://andrewnorton.info/2009/03/evidence-and-economic-reform/


----------



## Julia (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> crimes against truth, crimes against good taste, crimes against earwax, crimes against pigeon toed people who are , I believe taking up a collection to get his gait corrected so they wont be identified with him, crimes against closet homos who marry a rich woman and hide behind her talent and live off her earnings, the crimes are endless............



Mr Burns, this is really unreasonable, isn't it, not to mention being completely off topic?   It probably constitutes slander and doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion.  I understand how much you hate Kevin Rudd, but you need to keep some sense of perspective.





Duckman#72 said:


> Both sides have behaved very poorly, mainly by climbing all over honesty, respect, protocol and integrity in their haste to sit on the high horse that enables them to shout ....."You MUST resign!!!".
> 
> Turnbull's performance on what has been proven to be a fraudulent email is very unimpressive.....




I agree, Duckman.  Watching both leaders being interviewed by Kerry O'Brien this evening, Mr Rudd simply took control of the interview and occasionally allowed O'Brien to get a few words in.   He managed very successfully to focus entirely on the fraudulent email, and equally successfully deflected any questions about Wayne Swan's possible preferential treatment of Mr Grant.

In contrast, Mr Turnbull looked very uncomfortable, fumbled with notes and sounded unconvincing.   Even the most diehard Liberal supporter couldn't claim this to be one of Mr Turnbull's finest hours..

Let's hope the writer of the email is found, but even then it will not excuse Mr Turnbull for such dramatic calls for the Prime Minister's resignation, given he has completely failed to authenticate said email.

I reckon this little exercise will cost the Libs around 10 points in the next poll and that's what they deserve.

Btw apparently Mr Swan has made public the remaining series of emails demonstrating similar treatment to that offered Mr Grant was in fact given to other car dealers.

Another strike against the Libs.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25674232-12377,00.html



MrBurns said:


> Turnbull naturally expected this to be true and it wasn't. he should have said "subject to the production of the email and proof of it's authenticity" Rudd should resign etc etc



Yes.  That would have saved much humiliation.  Good suggestion.




basilio said:


> The fact is that Rudd is very tough and seems relatively clean. It would have been foreseeable that attacking Ruddd's fundamental integrity  *had to be absolutely provable* or the counter attack would be ferocious.  It's a big call saying the PM is a liar and discovering your evidence has been faked...



Agree entirely.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The only better example of the failure of democracy is Rudd.




But Rudd did win a democratic election, Turntable has yet to do so. Oh and Downer never did either.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Mr Burns, this is really unreasonable, isn't it, not to mention being completely off topic?   It probably constitutes slander and doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion.  I understand how much you hate Kevin Rudd, but you need to keep some sense of perspective.




Oh Julia that was a joke, ....then again


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> But Rudd did win a democratic election, .




Yes I know , how on earth did that happen ???
Is it too late for a recount ?


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Watching both leaders being interviewed by Kerry O'Brien this evening, Mr Rudd simply took control of the interview and occasionally allowed O'Brien to get a few words in.   He managed very successfully to focus entirely on the fraudulent email, and equally successfully deflected any questions about Wayne Swan's possible preferential treatment of Mr Grant.
> 
> In contrast, Mr Turnbull looked very uncomfortable, fumbled with notes and sounded unconvincing.   Even the most diehard Liberal supporter couldn't claim this to be one of Mr Turnbull's finest hours..
> 
> .





Rudd does take control whenever he is interviewed. He focuses on a single point (fake email) until it becomes ingrained in your mind while simultaneously dodging questions. Very media savvy. Turnbull's weak attempt to get the issue back on track was terrible.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Rudd does take control whenever he is interviewed. He focuses on a single point (fake email) until it becomes ingrained in your mind while simultaneously dodging questions. Very media savvy. .




Yes he does that, I think it wil backfire on him as he thinks the public wont notice, but they will.


----------



## Julia (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Yes he does that, I think it wil backfire on him as he thinks the public wont notice, but they will.



I don't know about that.   I think to the average viewer he probably comes across as decisive, firm and authoritative.   At least to the confirmed Labor voters.


----------



## Macquack (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Who cares if it's fake Rudd should go anyway for crimes against manhood and aussieness in general.






MrBurns said:


> crimes against truth, crimes against good taste, crimes against earwax, crimes against pigeon toed people who are , I believe taking up a collection to get his gait corrected so they wont be identified with him, crimes against closet homos who marry a rich woman and hide behind her talent and live off her earnings, the crimes are endless






MrBurns said:


> The only better example of the failure of democracy is Rudd.






Julia said:


> Mr Burns, this is really unreasonable, isn't it, not to mention being completely off topic?   It probably constitutes slander and doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion.  I understand how much you hate Kevin Rudd, but you need to keep some sense of perspective.




Julia, you must forgive Burns, he has not been taking his ADHD medication.


----------



## son of baglimit (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I agree 100% with son of baglimit here. A lot of the resident ALP-bashers refuse to acknowledge the distinction between industrial capital and finance capital. They are two completely different things. But even though it was finance capital that was hugely to blame for this mess, they just insist on bashing the ALP, the Unions & the battlers without even a mutter about the orgy of incompetent finance capitalists who invented the Financial Weapons of Mass Destruction as Buffett would put it.




yeah ok - i'll the credit for saying all that lol.



GumbyLearner said:


> I don't see what the lefties should be gloating about either. There should be no taxpayer dollars going into bailing out car dealerships.




um - fact checking time - ozcar wasnt to bail out car dealerships - it was to make available credit to allow dealers to obtain cars for showroom display.(or something like that)
and dont assume my attitude towards car dealers either lol.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

son of baglimit said:


> yeah ok - i'll the credit for saying all that lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh no far from it, I'm not casting any aspersions about you baglimit.
I was just agreeing that this has become an anti-alp thread. It's very rare on ASF during my membership to read about the misgivings of the tories. I totally agree with you, but hence not being a linear political paradigm thinker, there is more to everything in my opinion.

The FEDS are involved now, that should take care of everything. 

Mind you every political party needs questioning in my opinion. That's the beauty of democracy!

If I started a cafe with the missus and it went under due to lack of sales, competition, lack of understanding of the market etc.. do I have the right to go cap in hand to the government and ask to be bailed-out? That's just the game mate.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> Julia, you must forgive Burns, he has not been taking his ADHD medication.




Thanks for grouping them once again I just love re reading my own brilliant insight without having to scroll back 

You're very good at this (organisiation) are you an old bitter librarian spinster ?


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2009)

According to the ABC's 7:30 Report the email was created and destroyed in treasury and was also on Godwin Grech's home PC.

Why then would Godwin express uncertainty about any such email (whether it be authentic or not) to the Senate as he did on Friday ?


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Julia said:


> I don't know about that.   I think to the average viewer he probably comes across as decisive, firm and authoritative.   At least to the confirmed Labor voters.




I think I can judge the average Aussie and Rudd will have a hell of a time convincing them that he identifies with them after the cheques in the mail syndrome wears off.

Simply because he doesnt fit in , they will see though that no problem.


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Yes he does that, I think it wil backfire on him as he thinks the public wont notice, but they will.




I'm not so sure.
The fake email is now "Turnbulls fake email" having been pushed all day by Labor. I have no doubt that many people think Turnbull wrote it himself after Labors spin effort in the media. 
The Libs need to polish up before walking in half assed. There have been numerous times when they could have attacked the government more ferociously but failed. Possibly just plain old weak leadership, they don't gel very well as a team either.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

One thing I will say about Rudd in the positive is this - 

He is the Prime Minister and all his knockers aren't. now dont expect me to repeat this or admit it's me who said it, in fact I'll say now that this post is a fake, a fraud and someone should call in the cops to check it out.

I will not resign.


----------



## Macquack (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Thanks for grouping them once again I just love re reading my own brilliant insight without having to scroll back
> 
> You're very good at this (organisiation) are you an old bitter librarian spinster ?




A builder actually, and like Kev I drive an Aussie Ute and not a mercedes like some tossers.

I suggest you get a job Burns, you obviously have way too much time on your hands (and this time get a real job).


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

son of baglimit said:


> yeah ok - i'll the credit for saying all that lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You again with your facts and your level head
PICK A SIDE TO BAG AND BE UNREASONABLE OR GET OUT


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> I'm not so sure.
> The fake email is now "Turnbulls fake email" having been pushed all day by Labor. I have no doubt that many people think Turnbull wrote it himself after Labors spin effort in the media.
> The Libs need to polish up before walking in half assed. There have been numerous times when they could have attacked the government more ferociously but failed. Possibly just plain old weak leadership, they don't gel very well as a team either.




I think they'll see though it but without a gutsier Lib party Rudd may win again by default, which is how he got in in the first place.


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2009)

Of the three main players (from the footage of today's parliament on the ABC's 7:30 Report), Wayne Swan struck me as as looking the least comfortable.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> You again with your facts and your level head
> PICK A SIDE TO BAG AND BE UNREASONABLE OR GET OUT




Darn tooti'n


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> A builder





Really... I thought you would be supporting burns.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> A builder actually, and like Kev I drive an Aussie Ute and not a mercedes like some tossers.
> 
> I suggest you get a job Burns, you obviously have way too much time on your hands (and this time get a real job).




A builder ? you mean bludger and rip off merchant with a big dog to make up for you r teensy weensy .........well whatever.

Mercedes are great cars . they'll be scrapping you out with a spatula after our head on while I'll be sipping fine brandy at the pub on the phone to my insurer ordering a new one.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think they'll see though it but without a gutsier Lib party Rudd may win again by default, which is how he got in in the first place.




But you are ignoring the economic policies of the previous over a decade long government of the tories. Do you think they gave bigger tax breaks to the majority of punters?

Please Mr.Burns, this is becoming tiresome.

Cycles my friend cycles


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> But you are ignoring the economic policies of the previous over a decade long government of the tories. Do you think they gave bigger tax breaks to the majority of punters?
> 
> Please Mr.Burns, this is becoming tiresome.
> 
> Cycles my friend cycles




Think of the big picture Gumby, people were much better offf under the Libs, they thought they hated Howard so they gave him the **** but they hadn't experience Rudd and Labor, live and learn.

People are basically rooted at present, until the libs get back into action and suppost small business and get employment moving it will just get worse.


----------



## Stan 101 (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm suprised and disappointed that this story got a run without proof, I don't believe a lot in the media but the printed media has to maintain it's credibility or die.




The story got a long run because of Turnbull's big idiot mouth. The buffoon went off half cocked, not bothering to check facts and just wouldn't shut his trap. The man is a fool and is not fit to run a local nana's knitting convention. 
ha ha ha!!!


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Think of the big picture Gumby, people were much better offf under the Libs, they thought they hated Howard so they gave him the **** but they hadn't experience Rudd and Labor, live and learn.
> 
> People are basically rooted at present, until the libs get back into action and suppost small business and get employment moving it will just get worse.




You are right Mr.Burns.

I concede and realize now that you are right.

Where are the slums?


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> The story got a long run because of Turnbull's big idiot mouth. The buffoon went off half cocked, not bothering to check facts and just wouldn't shut his trap. The man is a fool and is not fit to run a local nana's knitting convention.
> ha ha ha!!!




So News Ltd aren't responsible at all ? If i'd seen that on the front page I would have gone for the jugular too, but never again.


----------



## Julia (22 June 2009)

drsmith said:


> According to the ABC's 7:30 Report the email was created and destroyed in treasury and was also on Godwin Grech's home PC.
> 
> Why then would Godwin express uncertainty about any such email (whether it be authentic or not) to the Senate as he did on Friday ?



Yes, indeed.   I expected the situation re Godwin Grech to be discussed amongst the 7.30 Report but it seems everyone is tiptoeing around this issue until the police have finished interviewing him.

Re his apparent uncertainty in the Senate hearing, perhaps he had mentioned the email to his Treasury colleagues and been told to shut up about it?





moXJO said:


> The fake email is now "Turnbulls fake email" having been pushed all day by Labor. I have no doubt that many people think Turnbull wrote it himself after Labors spin effort in the media.



Yep.  That's my impression too, especially for the vast majority who don't pay the sort of attention to the matter that we have been doing.
Mr Rudd managed very successfully to convey just that impression (without of course actually saying so) in his 7.30 Report interview.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Yep.  That's my impression too, especially for the vast majority who don't pay the sort of attention to the matter that we have been doing.
> Mr Rudd managed very successfully to convey just that impression (without of course actually saying so) in his 7.30 Report interview.




Thats what is so dangerous about Rudd he's cunning and sneaky  but extremely so.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> We've already seen the email in the newspapers, why doesn't someone ask THEM to produce it.
> 
> I dont really care how it happens but we have to get rid of Rudd, this may be the key, Turnbull has seen the email in the paper like everyone else asked for an explanation, Rudd has tried to turn it around onto Turnbull, he is a master of spin and massaging the truth, he's not worthy of the position.




Dear Mr.Burns

Are you sure you don't have an "unrequited love" for Mr. Rudd considering the majority of your posts on this website are aimed at him?


----------



## Tink (22 June 2009)

Well looks like they arent going to give up........

Turnbull started it, Rudd will end it..

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is demanding Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull resign


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> The story got a long run because of Turnbull's big idiot mouth. The buffoon went off half cocked, not bothering to check facts and just wouldn't shut his trap. The man is a fool and is not fit to run a local nana's knitting convention.
> ha ha ha!!!




Of course unlike Keating who had no part in the allegation when Ralph got shafted, this guy has to go. At least according to parliamentary convention...
The days of Whitlam??? remember?


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Dear Mr.Burns
> 
> Are you sure you don't have an "unrequited love" for Mr. Rudd considering the majority of your posts on this website are aimed at him?




No he just annoys me, I have a very sensitive "tosser meter" and Rudd activates it even more than mcquack.

Just saw Rudd on the ABC bringing up "children overboard" again, that seals it for me the man is just full of it and nothing else , an empty spin machine dedicated to bringing up anything he thinks might strike a nerve with his followers.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

Tink said:


> Well looks like they arent going to give up........
> 
> *Turnbull started it, Rudd will end it..*
> 
> Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is demanding Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull resign




Just like my old man, I don't start them but I finish them


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Just like my old man, I don't start them but I finish them




I dont think Rudd's ever finished anything, just ask his wife.

No that was below the belt I withdraw that.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> No he just annoys me, I have a very sensitive "tosser meter" and Rudd activates it even more than mcquack.
> 
> Just saw Rudd on the ABC bringing up "children overboard" again, that seals it for me the man is just full of it and nothing else , an empty spin machine dedicated to bringing up anything he thinks might strike a nerve with his followers.




Are you a One Nation member?


----------



## Timmy (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Are you a One Nation member?




Too loony left for Mr. B


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Just saw Rudd on the ABC bringing up "children overboard" again, that seals it for me the man is just full of it and nothing else , an empty spin machine dedicated to bringing up anything he thinks might strike a nerve with his followers.




This is where his spin is tight. He brings it all together, past indiscretions, the current focal point and then just hammers it home over and over again until it’s ingrained. While also spouting the virtues of labor members that are in trouble. The general public either lap it up, or don't give a toss much in the first place and think that will do. You have to hand it to him, he is very good at it.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Are you a One Nation member?




Just in case you're serious I'll answer that, no I'm not, I'm a swinging voter but usually find that Labor are latte' sucking tossers who love to spend money without having a clue how it's made, like Rudd he has money but it's been made by someone else, his wife. 

libs make the hard decisions that keep the nation humming, work hard get paid, end of story.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> This is where his spin is tight. He brings it all together, past indiscretions, the current focal point and then just hammers it home over and over again until it’s ingrained. While also spouting the virtues of labor members that are in trouble. The general public either lap it up, or don't give a toss much in the first place and think that will do. You have to hand it to him, he is very good at it.




Thats what so annoying about Rudd, he's robotic and transparent, if he gets away with this I'll be very disappointed.(to say the least)


----------



## Stan 101 (22 June 2009)

"For Mr Turnbull as the alternative prime minister - and he's a person trained as a lawyer - not to administer any basic due diligence to this forged email, and to mount a capital case against the Prime Minister of the day calling for him to resign, accusing of being corrupt, shows such a lack of judgement on his part that he is no longer fit to occupy the office of leader of the Opposition," he said.

Extract from http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/22/2605368.htm.

It was clear on the weekend that this is way it would end for Turnbull. If the Libs keep him as leader, whatever credibility they have gained in the last two years will be diminished in a great way.

I'm no real fan of Rudd, but there is no way I could vote for Turnbull's libs at the next election. What he did really is incomprehensible. It was grossly incompetent. 

Got to hand it to labour. They offered up the rope and is going to let Turnbull swing high.

Swan is a quite the politician. I was confident he would have copies of emails showing all car dealer received equal treatment and would just hold back and hold back till the libs showed their "gung ho" incompetence.




cheers,


----------



## rederob (22 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Re his apparent uncertainty in the Senate hearing, perhaps he had mentioned the email to his Treasury colleagues and been told to shut up about it?



Perhaps that was because he told himself that the email he sent to himself wasn't his, and because he could find no evidence of it, he could with certainty be unsure of its accuracy, to the best of his recollection.
The AFP are still searching for the fairies that Grech described in vivid detail as dwelling at the bottom of his garden.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> This is where his spin is tight. He brings it all together, past indiscretions, the current focal point and then just hammers it home over and over again until it’s ingrained. While also spouting the virtues of labor members that are in trouble. The general public either lap it up, or don't give a toss much in the first place and think that will do. You have to hand it to him, he is very good at it.




Or they call him OUT?

Cheers Mods


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

The most enlightening aspect of all this is that the more you see our pollies go at it at full steam the more you realise they are not as good as you would have expected.

They are average speakers with no great talent and it's a bit of an eye opener.

I'm unimpressed on all fronts.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The most enlightening aspect of all this is that the more you see our pollies go at it at full steam the more you realise they are not as good as you would have expected.
> 
> They are average speakers with no great talent and it's a bit of an eye opener.
> 
> I'm unimpressed on all fronts.




I'm sure you are! You spend a lot of time pre-occupying yourself with the Prime Minister!


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I'm sure you are! You spend a lot of time pre-occupying yourself with the Prime Minister!




Wel he deserves it.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> The story got a long run because of Turnbull's big idiot mouth. The buffoon went off half cocked, not bothering to check facts and just wouldn't shut his trap. The man is a fool and is not fit to run a local nana's knitting convention.
> ha ha ha!!!




I have to agree there. Some people just don't have the constitution for the  rough and tumble. Not that I want to sound like Hyacinth Bucket from "Keeping Up Appearances."  Great show by the way.


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> "Keeping Up Appearances."  Great show by the way.




Loved it.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Wel he deserves it.




there are two L's in well. Maybe you need to sober up


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> there are two L's in well. Maybe you need to sober up




Gosh sorry, I didnt realise you could spell


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

Was that the old pommy lady that thought she was upper class, with the forever suffering husband?


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Was that the old pommy lady that thought she was upper class, with the forever suffering husband?




Correct , a bit like the Rudds in reverse


----------



## Timmy (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Was that the old pommy lady that thought she was upper class, with the forever suffering husband?




No, that was Mrs. Thatcher.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Gosh sorry, I didnt realise you could spell




Well, Mr Burns good luck to you.
May you live a long life.


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2009)

Timmy said:


> No, that was Mrs. Thatcher.




ROFL


----------



## MrBurns (22 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Well, Mr Burns good luck to you.
> May you live a long life.




and you Gumby


----------



## drsmith (22 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Yes, indeed.   I expected the situation re Godwin Grech to be discussed amongst the 7.30 Report but it seems everyone is tiptoeing around this issue until the police have finished interviewing him.
> 
> Re his apparent uncertainty in the Senate hearing, perhaps he had mentioned the email to his Treasury colleagues and been told to shut up about it?



Below is part of the transcript from tonight 7:30 report 



> MICHAEL BRISSENDEN: The revelations of Godwin Grech the Treasury official appeared to contradict the assurances given to Parliament by both the Prime Minister and the Treasurer that they had not given Mr Grant any special treatment as he attempted to secure emergency finance from the Government's special OzCar scheme. The initial contact Mr Grech referred to was in the form of an email that an extensive search initially failed to find. But the contents of which seemed to have been known by the Opposition for some time. It was quoted from on Friday by Eric Abetz, the senator leading the Opposition attack in estimates. But by today, it had been unearthed as a fake by Australian Federal Police investigators, who this morning raided Mr Grech's Canberra home. *It's understood the email was written in the Treasury system, sent to Mr Grech's home account and then deleted from Treasury computers.* The Prime Minister said the Opposition Leader's attack has been demolished.



With regard to the bit highlighted in bold it's clear Godwin Grech had knowledge of the email given that it was sent to his home account.

What if it was organised such that there was only oral communication between the politicians and treasury with treasury then constructing the email and passing it onto Gretch. That way written evidence directly linking the politicians is avoided.


----------



## GumbyLearner (22 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> ROFL




No that actually was her son. 

He was such a doyen at motor car racing and deals with arms dealers, what a legacy!  Total scumbags, supporting WHO????????????????????


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 June 2009)

Keating was great


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 June 2009)

I knew that bloke in the 80's before he got that...
Aging and decaying is part of this place


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 June 2009)

It's great to remember back in the day


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 June 2009)

Why Keating embraced Asia and Howard didn't?


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

Timmy said:


> Too loony left for Mr. B



Timmy, One Nation the loony left?    You're putting Mr Burns to the Right of One Nation????  That's a bit unkind!



drsmith said:


> Below is part of the transcript from tonight 7:30 report
> 
> 
> With regard to the bit highlighted in bold it's clear Godwin Grech had knowledge of the email given that it was sent to his home account.
> ...



Yes, but what is not clear is whether Mr Grech was implicated/complicit in the sending of the email from Treasury to his home, and if it was not his own work, then who was the originator of the email.

This affair is far from over, imo, despite the Turnbull haters already jumping for joy.


----------



## Bafana (23 June 2009)

Bring back Keating...

LOL are all our politicians so soft today?


----------



## rederob (23 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Yes, but what is not clear is whether Mr Grech was implicated/complicit in the sending of the email from Treasury to his home, and if it was not his own work, then who was the originator of the email.
> 
> This affair is far from over, imo, despite the Turnbull haters already jumping for joy.



Again laughable.
You could get a job as Turnbull's tactics advisor!
The email Grech testified about was sent from his Treasury computer to his home computer, yet he could find no evidence of it.  Yet you believe it's not clear if he was implicated or complicit in these events?
Martine saved Grech from inflicting significant Departmental embarrassment, and almost from Grech digging for himself a hole that would become his career grave.


----------



## Quincy (23 June 2009)

> ''One, ... I have been advised that neither I nor my office have ever spoke to Mr Grant in relation to OzCar; and two, neither I nor my office ... have ever made representations on his behalf; and three, I've not been aware of any representations on his behalf made by anyone in the Government,'' Mr Rudd said.




"*I have been advised that neither I* nor my office *have ever spoke *(sic) *to Mr Grant*"  

Mr Rudd needs to be advised whether or not he has personally spoken to Mr Grant about OzCar ?


"and three, *I've not been aware of any representations on his behalf made by anyone in the Government*,'' Mr Rudd said" 

Didn't Wayne Swan's office make representations ?


http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/political/car-bombshell-hits-rudd/1546105.aspx

"Canberra Times" by DANIELLE CRONIN - 20/06/2009


----------



## rederob (23 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> "and three, *I've not been aware of any representations on his behalf made by anyone in the Government*,'' Mr Rudd said"
> Didn't Wayne Swan's office make representations ?



Your comprehension skills can't make the connection about the lack of a connection?
There is no evidence that Rudd knew of Swan's dealings with Grant.
Were such evidence available then Rudd would be in the firing line.


----------



## noco (23 June 2009)

Given Kevin Rudd's history of cunningness and with his previous bureaucratic history in the Queensland Goss Government, it would not surprise me in the least, that he himself engineered this "FAKE E-MAIL" and set up the inexperienced  Malcolm Turnbull  just to discredit him. Malcolm Turnbull took the bait and swallowed it hook, line and sinker. It was Rudd's way of taking the heat off Wayne Swan and himself  over the Grant UTEGATE and turned it back on Malcolm Turnbull.

Rudd was declaring this "E-Mail" a fake and a fraud long before the AFP discovered the deleted E-Mail on Mr Grech's computor and did anyone note how quick the AFP released this information before the investigation was complete in comparision to the lack of statements relating to the fire on the SIRV refugee boat killing seven people. That report we are still waiting for to the best of my knowledge. Mr. Grech was  consistantly gagged from telling the truth by Labor Senators, the Lady Chair person and his boss Mr Martines.

Rudd would make sure somebody  else did his dirty work for him so he would come out "SQUEAKY CLEAN".

The AFP must establish the author of this fake E-Mail and where it originated from; that  will be the key to this enquiry and if the AFP do their job and dig deep enough, you can bet your boots it will go back to RUDD or SWAN.

It's DOG EATS DOG in politics. A dirty business indeed.


----------



## Calliope (23 June 2009)

rederob said:


> There is no evidence that Rudd knew of Swan's dealings with Grant.




Do you think he didn't know? Grant is Rudd's friend and constituent...not Swan's, and Rudd is a control freak.


----------



## Quincy (23 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> "and three, I've not been aware of any representations on his behalf made by anyone in the Government,'' Mr Rudd said"
> 
> Didn't Wayne Swan's office make representations ?







rederob said:


> Your comprehension skills can't make the connection about the lack of a connection?
> There is no evidence that Rudd knew of Swan's dealings with Grant.
> Were such evidence available then Rudd would be in the firing line.




Being aware of Wayne Swan's dealings with John Grant does not in itself put Kevin Rudd "in the firing line".

There is nothing on the record that shows Kevin Rudd was aware of Wayne Swan's dealings with John Grant *at the time* (February, 2009). However at some point Kevin Rudd was made "aware" of the matter (we are all aware of it now). He made that statement earlier this month (nearly 4 months later) that "I've not been aware of any representations on his behalf made by anyone in the Government''. What I am saying is it the timing of that statement that may come under question at some stage.


----------



## Calliope (23 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Yes, but what is not clear is whether Mr Grech was implicated/complicit in the sending of the email from Treasury to his home, and if it was not his own work, then who was the originator of the email.




The AFP were only called in by Rudd to implicate Turnbull in the phony email. If they fail to do that their job is done.


----------



## dan-o (23 June 2009)

did anyone see the 7:30 report last night? Kevin Rudd is a truly scary man. It was stressful listening to him!


----------



## MACCA350 (23 June 2009)

dan-o said:


> did anyone see the 7:30 report last night? Kevin Rudd is a truly scary man. It was stressful listening to him!



Reminds me of that speech "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

Rudd "I did not have dealings with Mr Grench"

This comes to mind "And I'm not so optimistic. We spend 250 billion dollars a year on defense. And here we are. The fate of the planet is in the hands of a bunch of retards I wouldn't trust with a potato gun."

cheers


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

noco said:


> Rudd was declaring this "E-Mail" a fake and a fraud long before the AFP discovered the deleted E-Mail on Mr Grech's computor and did anyone note how quick the AFP released this information before the investigation was complete in comparision to the lack of statements relating to the fire on the SIRV refugee boat killing seven people.



Yes, it's very unusual for such an announcement to be made so quickly by the AFP.   


> That report we are still waiting for to the best of my knowledge. Mr. Grech was  consistantly gagged from telling the truth by Labor Senators, the Lady Chair person and his boss Mr Martines.



Ah, but Rudd disciple, Rederob, has explained this was purely an altruistic move to protect Mr Grech, nothing more.





> The AFP must establish the author of this fake E-Mail and where it originated from; that  will be the key to this enquiry



Completely agree.  If the matter were to be left as is, there are unanswered questions imo.

And btw, Rederob, your views are clear enough, your command of the language sufficiently competent, that I'd have thought simply expressing what you want to say would be adequate without the gratuitous insults.
As I've observed previously, this says more about you than anyone you are insulting.


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Yes, but what is not clear is whether Mr Grech was implicated/complicit in the sending of the email from Treasury to his home, and if it was not his own work, then who was the originator of the email.
> 
> This affair is far from over, imo, despite the Turnbull haters already jumping for joy.



A question which comes to my mind is, What would Mr Grech have to gain from faking an email ?


----------



## Sean K (23 June 2009)

drsmith said:


> A question which comes to my mind is, What would Mr Grech have to gain from faking an email ?



How could anyone have thought they could get away with faking an email to cause this? Truly bizaar.


----------



## Beej (23 June 2009)

drsmith said:


> A question which comes to my mind is, What would Mr Grech have to gain from faking an email ?




I don't think he faked it himself. Some "helpful" Liberal insider working at the Treasury will have done it, and then have spread rumours about the existence of said email around making sure that Turnbulls office learned of it. Grech's involvement exactly is unclear, but I reckon as he seems to have connections to Turnbull advisers and the Liberal party himself, he may well have simply believed the email was genuine and helped spread the rumours of it's existence, or perhaps he even was the one who leaked it to News Ltd?

The person who did fake the email will likely get caught now and might well go to jail. And in addition they made their glorious political leader look like a complete dill! Well done Mr Helpful Liberal supporter working at Treasury!

I mean honestly, Turnbull should have known better. It's not like this sort of faked "evidence" hasn't occurred in political situations before! If you are going to call for the resignation of the Prime Minister, in Parliament, you had better be 100% sure of your facts and evidence!

Cheers,

Beej


----------



## Gamblor (23 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Think of the big picture Gumby, people were much better offf under the Libs, they thought they hated Howard so they gave him the **** but they hadn't experience Rudd and Labor, live and learn.
> 
> People are basically rooted at present, until the libs get back into action and suppost small business and get employment moving it will just get worse.




You have got to be kidding  Have you noticed this little thing called the credit crunch? Of course people were better off under Howard - the system hadn't broken down yet. 

There are so many holes in your statement it's not even worth going into.


----------



## Calliope (23 June 2009)

dan-o said:


> did anyone see the 7:30 report last night? Kevin Rudd is a truly scary man. It was stressful listening to him!




Yes, he refused to answer any questions, he talked over O'Brien and he even told O'Brien at one point that he got the question wrong. Rudd prefers to answer his own questions.

Turnbull on the other hand was polite, but not very convincing.


----------



## sunshineboy (23 June 2009)

People must do good things.


----------



## Calliope (23 June 2009)

From The Punch;



> ratter says:
> 
> Forget this crazy theory of a Peter Costello comeback being behind Utegate.
> 
> ...



June 23rd, 2009 at 12:32pm


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Timmy, One Nation the loony left?    You're putting Mr Burns to the Right of One Nation????  That's a bit unkind!




That's a hilarious statement Julia.

Coming from someone who harps on about correct expression and grammar use. Yet you ignore the unrelenting right wing bias prose of a poster without a political clue.

Good call Timmy


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 June 2009)

Anyway back to the topic.

When will Turntable table the documented "bull" in Parliament?


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> That's a hilarious statement Julia.
> 
> Coming from someone who harps on about correct expression and grammar use. Yet you ignore the unrelenting right wing bias prose of a poster without a political clue.
> 
> Good call Timmy



I'd be the last to suggest Mr Burns is anything but firmly right wing. My comment was to question the description of One Nation as the 'loony left'.
They're probably about on a par with Mr B in their right bias.

Don't tell me you think they're a left organisation?

And perhaps Mr Burns - who's entitled to his views - provides somewhat of a balance to Rederob.


----------



## Timmy (23 June 2009)

Calling One Nation loony left and Mr.B to the right of them was my attempt at a humourous dig at Mr.B - no more.  No offence or insightful political comment intended.


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

Timmy said:


> Calling One Nation loony left and Mr.B to the right of them was my attempt at a humourous dig at Mr.B - no more.  No offence or insightful political comment intended.



And my response was in a similar vein, Timmy, as I expect you know.

Sorry you took it seriously, Gumby Learner.


----------



## kincella (23 June 2009)

a poster on another forum raised an interesting idea....what if Grech did it himself...to give himself more authority...well perceived authority when dealing with others...as if he was doing the pm a favour....????
one could call it all a balls up....


----------



## Gamblor (23 June 2009)

kincella said:


> a poster on another forum raised an interesting idea....what if Grech did it himself...to give himself more authority...well perceived authority when dealing with others...as if he was doing the pm a favour....????
> one could call it all a balls up....





This is a resonable theory - unlike so many others that have been put forth in this thread. Considering the fake email apparently originated from his own computer, it seems the most likely theory at this stage.

Time will tell.


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

Gamblor said:


> This is a resonable theory - unlike so many others that have been put forth in this thread. Considering the fake email apparently originated from his own computer, it seems the most likely theory at this stage.
> 
> Time will tell.



Did it originate from Mr Grech's computer?   I thought it was established just that it originated from Treasury (no specific computer) and was sent to Mr Grech's home PC?

Perhaps there has been a further development since I read that?


----------



## Beej (23 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Did it originate from Mr Grech's computer?   I thought it was established just that it originated from Treasury (no specific computer) and was sent to Mr Grech's home PC?
> 
> Perhaps there has been a further development since I read that?




Nope you are correct. It originated from a computer inside Treasury (we don't know whose yet!) and was sent with forged "from" info etc to Grech's home email account.

Cheers,

Beej


----------



## Calliope (23 June 2009)

Apparently Mr Turnbull is a suspect in the egging of Godwin Grech's house. It is believed the AFP are looking for people with egg on their face, after getting an email from the PM's office.


----------



## rederob (23 June 2009)

Turnbull has failed to land any blows in recent days, and his pursuit of Swan is now plain tiresome.
Turnbull has no evidence that Swan did anything improper and is now staking his tattered reputation on ground that has been tilled many times without success.  Indeed, it emerges that Swan's office has dealt diligently with several other dealerships.  That Grant is known to Swan and Rudd does not deny him a right to representation.  Moreover, it is well known that public servants keen to get ahead will occasionally name drop, so if Treasury officials have mentioned Grant's name in other dealings it would come as no surprise to anyone.  And, unless Turnbull can prove conclusively that Swan gave specific directions to Treasury officers to more vigorously pursue assistance for Grant it can be implied that Treasury's actions were of their own making.
The bad news for Turnbull is that the media, keen for a fresh kill, are circling Turnbull like vultures.  
It is unlikely that Turnbull will get away with not answering in detail his past dealings with Grech, and his more  recent dealings leading up to utegate.  
For most journalists the penny has already dropped.
Grech, who now seems as lost as his missing emails, has had links to senior Liberals for at least 8 years: Turnbull has had discussions with him.  It is implausible to think that Grech has not had direct dealings with Turnbull in relation to utegate given Grech's role in OzCar, the line of questioning assumed by Turnbull in Parliament from June 4, and ultimately the fake email.
I have listened to about a dozen different interviews with Turnbull in recent days - on radio and TV - and he is refusing point blank to answer certain questions.  These are questions that in America would allow him 5th amendment immunity.  Here, it simply gives sends vultures the sniff of a corpse walking.


----------



## GumbyLearner (23 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Turnbull has failed to land any blows in recent days, and his pursuit of Swan is now plain tiresome.
> Turnbull has no evidence that Swan did anything improper and is now staking his tattered reputation on ground that has been tilled many times without success.  Indeed, it emerges that Swan's office has dealt diligently with several other dealerships.  That Grant is known to Swan and Rudd does not deny him a right to representation.  Moreover, it is well known that public servants keen to get ahead will occasionally name drop, so if Treasury officials have mentioned Grant's name in other dealings it would come as no surprise to anyone.  And, unless Turnbull can prove conclusively that Swan gave specific directions to Treasury officers to more vigorously pursue assistance for Grant it can be implied that Treasury's actions were of their own making.
> The bad news for Turnbull is that the media, keen for a fresh kill, are circling Turnbull like vultures.
> It is unlikely that Turnbull will get away with not answering in detail his past dealings with Grech, and his more  recent dealings leading up to utegate.
> ...




I bet he wishes his vulture fund Wentworth campaign contribution buddies from the US could help him now. LOL


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

Gamblor said:


> This is a resonable theory - unlike so many others that have been put forth in this thread. Considering the fake email apparently originated from his own computer, it seems the most likely theory at this stage.
> 
> Time will tell.






Beej said:


> Nope you are correct. It originated from a computer inside Treasury (we don't know whose yet!) and was sent with forged "from" info etc to Grech's home email account.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Beej



Thanks, Beej.  As I thought.

Plus this as further confirmation:



> Melbourne’s Herald-Sun has just spoken to Mr Lindwall who denies any knowledge of the email.
> 
> As ABC Online revealed at noon, the AFP searched the Canberra home of Treasury official Godwin Grech this morning and found the email suggesting the Prime Minister’s office had lobbied on behalf of Mr Rudd’s friend, Ipswich car dealer John Grant.
> 
> ...




I guess we await the next episode of this saga.


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2009)

Julia said:


> I guess we await the next episode of this saga.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/23/2606434.htm

Time for the Fremantle Dockers last rites me thinks.

Malcolm Turnbull's prospects of surviving this as opposition leader are less than that of the Fremantle Dockers winning the 2009 AFL premiership.


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

If he were to go, then who would replace him?   There really isn't a suitable candidate, is there?


----------



## Duckman#72 (23 June 2009)

Turnbull obviously never studied modern history. Or at least he never took any lessons out of the US involvement in the Vietnam War. 

You don't fight the enemy on his terrain, on his terms, trying to match it with your opponents strengths. You need to target his weaknesses, divide and isolate, play only when you know you will win.

C'mon Mal - what the $%#$ is going on? What are you doing engaging in a "battle to the death" when the situation involves audit trails, email correspondence, red tape, layers of officialdom, policy breaches and phone messages.  Chairman Rudd is the "Rambo" of the Public Service!! 

What were you thinking!!! "Rudbo" knows all the tricks in the book - no easy kill here. Dust yourself down, stitch up the flesh wounds and then get back to your strategy.

Mal, while you are playing "Watch me Blow Up on the National Stage", your ex nemisis was showing you how to do it in interview after interview. 

A classic line - (paraphrased) 

Interviewer: "Mr Costello will you admit that the labor strategy is in fact stimulating the economy?"

Mr Costello: "Well, you can employ people to go out and paint rocks white. That will also stimulate the economy. Its not hard to stimulate the economy - what is hard to do, and Labor hasn't done it, is get value for money."

And this gem"

Mr Costello: "You can spend $1M to get yourself a $400K school gym, but isn't it more effective to just spend $400k to get a $400k gym and then spend the remaining $600k somewhere else?".   

Duckman


----------



## rederob (23 June 2009)

> Update regarding investigation
> Monday, 22 June 2009
> 
> Having regard to the public interest in this matter, the AFP can confirm in relation to the investigation of matters referred to it by the Attorney-General’s Department on Saturday 20 June 2009, that a preliminary forensic investigation of computers located at a premises in Calwell and at the offices of the Department of Treasury has been undertaken.
> ...



It would be incorrect to assume the email originated in Treasury.  We know that a fake email was discovered, that Dr Charlton was not the author, and that Grech is directly implicated in the case.


----------



## Duckman#72 (23 June 2009)

drsmith said:


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/23/2606434.htm
> 
> Time for the Fremantle Dockers last rites me thinks.
> 
> Malcolm Turnbull's prospects of surviving this as opposition leader are less than that of the Fremantle Dockers winning the 2009 AFL premiership.




 (HE MUST BE IN TROUBLE)

Possibly one of the most outlandish statements I've ever heard on ASF!!!!

Despite Malcolm's predicament - I'd be betting on him surviving *LONG *before I'd put 1 cent on the basketcases winning the flag!!!  

Duckman


----------



## Julia (23 June 2009)

rederob said:


> It would be incorrect to assume the email originated in Treasury.  We know that a fake email was discovered, that Dr Charlton was not the author, and that Grech is directly implicated in the case.



Dear Rederob,

It seems to depend on which branch of the media is supplying the information.



> P
> Posted Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:57am AEST
> Updated Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:34pm AEST
> 
> ...




Perhaps it's just possible that even you cannot yet be sure about the origin of the fake email.

With kind regards
Julia


----------



## drsmith (23 June 2009)

Duckman#72 said:


> (HE MUST BE IN TROUBLE)
> 
> Possibly one of the most outlandish statements I've ever heard on ASF!!!!
> 
> ...



https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424177&postcount=8


----------



## rederob (24 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Perhaps it's just possible that even you cannot yet be sure about the origin of the fake email.



I tend to rely on the *best *available information in all that I do. 
It may be that Grech has a fake email, and it may have been sent to his home computer from Treasury: I am not aware that these are concrete facts: The AFP remains on the case.
Even if they were concrete facts, we cannot imply the email's originator, and that is a matter of logic.
How the media interpret or misinterpret information is simply a matter for them and who they communicate to.  They do not create "facts" but do seem adept at recreating events that might underpin them.

Today the sideshow continues.  Unless Hockey and Turnbull can find documentary evidence - that is credible - to support their case against Swan, they have Buckley's.  Labor can shut down debate on the matter in Reps as they wish.  
On the other hand the media smell blood and these sharks are circling Turnbull with a frenzy of questions he just refuses to answer.  They all know he's up to his neck in this and soon enough he'll be roped.


----------



## Tink (24 June 2009)

I will say sorry if you say sorry - says Turnbull

OMG now we are definitely back at school........

Hasnt this finished yet?


----------



## Agentm (24 June 2009)

the only smoking gun was the one that turnbull shot himself in the foot with

he is no leader, piont proven

libs need to move on or rudd  will call an early election


----------



## kincella (24 June 2009)

When Kevin Rudd  was in opposition he apparently obtained and used leaks to do exactly the same thing he is now accusing Turnbull of....
how about that...news today said Rudd turned up in parliament with leaks about  the AWB.....and refused to reveal who his leaks were....
the hysteria now is to avoid scrutiny of the emails that have been released...and those emails  do prove that Rudd lied on June 4th...when he said he had no infor about Grant...
when in fact the emails reveal he did enquire and was advised on the grant progress...in Feb

Peter Costello...where are you


----------



## Quincy (24 June 2009)

kincella said:


> the hysteria now is to avoid scrutiny of the emails that have been released...and those emails  do prove that Rudd lied on June 4th...when he said he had no infor about Grant...
> when in fact the emails reveal he did enquire and was advised on the grant progress...in Feb




This was the point I was alluding to in my posts of yesterday morning. Post #'s 284 and 288.


----------



## Gamblor (24 June 2009)

kincella said:


> When Kevin Rudd  was in opposition he apparently obtained and used leaks to do exactly the same thing he is now accusing Turnbull of....
> how about that...news today said Rudd turned up in parliament with leaks about  the AWB.....and refused to reveal who his leaks were....
> the hysteria now is to avoid scrutiny of the emails that have been released...and those emails  do prove that Rudd lied on June 4th...when he said he had no infor about Grant...
> when in fact the emails reveal he did enquire and was advised on the grant progress...in Feb
> ...




The only reason people want the utegate leak named is because a fraud has taken place. You can try and compare that to the AWB situation but you're argument holds no water because the information leaked was legitimate.

If Rudd is implicated in the emails no amount of hysteria will stop him being held to account. Once again your argument holds no water. 

Oh and Peter Costello is smart enough not to go near this with a 10 foot pole


----------



## Calliope (24 June 2009)

Paul Kelly;

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25680668-12250,00.html


> Understand what is happening here. This is a concerted and co-ordinated Labor campaign to turn the public against Turnbull on character grounds and ensure that he is unelectable as prime minister. For Labor, it is the ultimate insurance. With Costello going, the Liberals have no more options: it is Turnbull or the bush. Even if unemployment does reach 8.5 per cent, the public will not vote for a change of government unless it trusts Turnbull. The more Labor's attack makes progress, the more scope it has to broaden the narrative to include aspects of Turnbull's business past.



Labor will probably succeed. They have mobilised government agencies (including the ABC) and services to dig up every bit of dirt on Turnbull.  Like a modern day Galahad, Turnbull rode to the rescue of the Liberal left who are just a bunch of softies. Abbot is the only one who is capable of fighting back.

He probably thought that Parliament was a gentleman's club  Even though he was raised in the hard-nosed business world he is just a babe-in-the wood up against the Labor Party machine. Howard could match them in their skullduggery, but even he would have been hard pressed against the Rudd spin machine with the media lapping it up. Those in power have all the power.

And now the precedent has been set. It is OK to mislead (lie to) Parliament and the people. It wll be open slather for the next four or five years.


----------



## rederob (24 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> And now the precedent has been set. It is OK to mislead (lie to) Parliament and the people. It wll be open slather for the next four or five years.



If you hold to the Opposition line, then you have a point.
The facts, as they stand, do not support a "lie".

On the other hand, if you are in Opposition you can call the Prime Minister to resign, without any evidence.
Oops, Turnbull relied on a "respected" senior bureaucrat named Grech and his damning testimony:  Such watertight testimony that Grech actually qualified his evidence to the point of it possibly being "false". 

Day by day day Turnbull digs himself a deeper hole.  He set a trap for Rudd, hoping he would fall.  But it seems Turnbull is the more likely victim of his own (not so very) clever ploy.


----------



## GumbyLearner (24 June 2009)

On a lighter note

Little Girl vs Former Merchant Banker turned politician 

A politician was seated next to a little girl on the airplane when the politician turned to her and said, 'Let's talk. I've heard that flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.'

The little girl, who had just opened her book, closed it slowly and said to the stranger, 'What would you like to talk about?'

'Oh, I don't know,' said the stranger. 'How about the banking crisis?' and he smiles.

'OK', she said. 'That could be an interesting and timely topic. But let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?'

The politician, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence, thinks about it and says, 'Hmmmm, I have no idea.'

To which the little girl replies, 'Do you really feel qualified to discuss banking when you don't know ****?'


----------



## rederob (24 June 2009)

Mr Turnbull's heroic performance some minutes ago on the 7.30 Report prove that he can put both feet in his mouth at once.  I applaud the man.


----------



## MrBurns (24 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Mr Turnbull's heroic performance some minutes ago on the 7.30 Report prove that he can put both feet in his mouth at once.  I applaud the man.




This whole thing has become an example of how not to answer a question.

If there's anything illegal of improper about this let the AFP dig it out, you certanly wont get too many confessions.


----------



## GumbyLearner (24 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> This whole thing has become an example of how not to answer a question.
> 
> If there's anything illegal of improper about this let the AFP dig it out, you certanly wont get too many confessions.




I noticed earlier in thread someone accused you of being a Liberal Party staffer?

Is that true? If not, what do you do for a crust?


----------



## MrBurns (24 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I noticed earlier in thread someone accused you of being a Liberal Party staffer?
> 
> Is that true? If not, what do you do for a crust?




Ex real estate agent now in IT, I'm not right wing either but vote where the common sense lies, it's usually more apparent in the Libs


----------



## scanspeak (24 June 2009)

With Turnbull in charge, the Libs have zero chance of ever winning an election.
Labor would be wise NOT to push too hard for his resignation.


----------



## GumbyLearner (24 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Ex real estate agent now in IT, I'm not right wing either but vote where the common sense lies, it's usually more apparent in the Libs




Databases, programming, networks...may I ask?

I'm an ex-transport worker but now I work part-time in education.


----------



## MrBurns (24 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Databases, programming, networks...may I ask?
> I'm an ex-transport worker but now I work part-time in education.




I build, run and sometimes sell successful web sites I guess would be the easiest way to put it.


----------



## GumbyLearner (24 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I build, run and sometimes sell successful web sites I guess would be the easiest way to put it.




Innovative, hats off to you.


----------



## MrBurns (24 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Innovative, hats off to you.




Thanks Gumby, it's paid off very well.


----------



## GumbyLearner (24 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Thanks Gumby, it's paid off very well.




No probs. Nothing wrong with making some bucks if you've got the know-how and the dedication for success.

Anyway back to the debate.


----------



## Julia (24 June 2009)

I wonder if Mr Turnbull takes a look at his own performance after he comes off the 7.30 Report.   If not, surely some of his colleagues or advisers should put him straight about what a complete disaster it was.   He hit completely the wrong note at the start by attempting to make a joke of the whole affair, particularly the Albanese reference to Mark Latham, and (especially in the face of O'Brien's serious demeanour) he fell flat on his face.

I don't think I've ever seen a more embarrassing performance by the leader of a political party.


----------



## GumbyLearner (24 June 2009)

Julia said:


> I wonder if Mr Turnbull takes a look at his own performance after he comes off the 7.30 Report.   If not, surely some of his colleagues or advisers should put him straight about what a complete disaster it was.   He hit completely the wrong note at the start by attempting to make a joke of the whole affair, particularly the Albanese reference to Mark Latham, and (especially in the face of O'Brien's serious demeanour) he fell flat on his face.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen a more embarrassing performance by the leader of a political party.




All I can say to Mr.Turnbull is this.

Hey asshole, you accused the Prime Minister of this country of corruption?

You have no evidence.

Resign you're an asshole.


----------



## Quincy (25 June 2009)

Just a summary of yesterday's events in parliament : - 


*Labor blocks inquiry into OzCar affair*

Federal parliament descended into farce on Wednesday as Labor blocked opposition attempts to set up a judicial inquiry into the OzCar affair.

Amid constant, lengthy interruptions to question time, the government used its numbers to shut down opposition moves to censure Treasurer Wayne Swan over allegations that he misled parliament earlier this month.


http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/829513/opposition-targets-swan-over-ozcar-saga

Thursday, June 25, 2009


----------



## rederob (25 June 2009)

Quincy said:


> Just a summary of yesterday's events in parliament : -
> 
> *Labor blocks inquiry into OzCar affair*
> 
> ...



Turnbull's case against Swan rests on what Swan did for a constituent that he would not do for another constituent.  So far there is no evidence that suggests Swan did anything other than he should.
The only contention is that Swan may have given Grant some "special" or other beneficial treatment.  If there were to be a judicial inquiry it would hinge on what could be defined as "special".
Turnbull's case against Swan is currently as thin as one could get, and to suggest it warrants a judicial inquiry is an indulgence in pettiness.
On the other hand, Grech gave evidence that Turnbull relied on to pursue Rudd.  The nature of that evidence was false and has a likelihood of criminal charges being laid against its perpetrators.
If the rumour mill were to be believed, the Liberal party has computers tied to Grech's, and Turnbull has admitted an association with Grech that he now refuses to answer further questions about.  In this game of join the dots, we begin to draw a picture where Turnbull's head  appears in the guillotine that that Labor successfully brought down on yesterday's proceedings.


----------



## Tink (25 June 2009)

I think this is all pretty sad..

Turnbull has become so obsessed with Rudd, he is going to end up throwing his career down the toilet. 

The way he is now, Labor is better leaving him there rather than asking him to resign, as Scanspeak mentioned, as he is just passing everything through - alcopops being one which they werent happy about.

He knows he has lost the numbers so who knows what his plan is now..


----------



## MrBurns (25 June 2009)

All these bludgers have now gone on holidays, what a farce, how much has all this useless debate cost us over the past 2 weeks ?

Oh by the way who's running the country while all this is going on ?


----------



## rederob (25 June 2009)

So we now have Turnbull conceding there is no case against Rudd: This thread is dead.

But we also have Turnbull, Abetz and Grech meeting secretly, before the Senate hearing where Grech raised the matter of the fake email. 
This places Turnbull in an invidious position as there are serious questions being raised about "coaching" or even coercion of Grech.
Today in the Seante Abetz' complicity was revealed as he used Opposition numbers to avoid scrutiny.

Turnbull will need the 6 week Winter Recess to recover, if at all it is possible.  Grech is damaged goods.  The secret meeting will be played out for all its worth by Labor over the next week, although the Canberra media will take a breather along with parliamentarians.

In the background the AFP, Audit, and Parliamentary officers will be filling in the missing “details” and reporting with any significant finds.  If Swan is hiding anything more, it will be flushed out: All the materials relating to Grant are “unclassified” and can be dug up through FOI.  More likely we will find that Turnbull’s association with Grech post 4 June Senate testimony will be the real smoking gun.  Rudd will be buoyed, Swan relieved, and Labor looking for a February 2010 election.


----------



## Bafana (26 June 2009)

LOL it's not dead even if the Libs would like to be.

Turnbull has to learn about consequences and that's what we are all waiting for.


----------



## Tink (26 June 2009)

LOL @ MrBurns

I agree - waste of time and money


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2009)

rederob said:


> So we now have Turnbull conceding there is no case against Rudd: This thread is dead.
> ... Rudd will be buoyed, Swan relieved, and Labor looking for a February 2010 election.




The government can deploy the full weight of the law and government agencies against the opposition and Grech because they are looking for alleged criminal activity.

Swan's misdemeanours, on the other hand, broke no laws. Misleading (i.e. lying) to parliament about giving Grant special treatment is not a crime. It is merely a breach of the Westminster convention, which in the eyes of the Labor party, is much lower on their list of standards, than looking after Labor mates. 

The Westminster system only works if the minister resigns or the PM wants to get rid of him, and in this case he dare not. Every man and his dog knows that Rudd instructed Swan and his own treasury adviser to look after Grant, and it doesn't pay to displease Mr Rudd. Otherwise there is no logical reason why they should single Grant out for special attention.


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

the thread is far from dead.....where there is smoke there is usually a fire....

I wonder how many of those foreign business trips we taxpayer have forked out for...just so the pm could lobby for business , for his mate Grant again.....

Remember the old saying...when you are onto a good thing...stick to it....

so even though the first email...MAY have been a dud....all the others were not dudds...pun intended...swan is still in trouble...and it will not go away...

the Libs will smell blood again...this time on the biggest DUDD we have ever seen....oh  and I would like to see the tax office look more closely at that property...where the now pm...left the air co and lights running for months...to pretend he lived there as his PPOR...when it was an investment property...and avoided paying CGT....on the sale.....that was reported in various papers when he first became leader of the opposition
I am not as much interested in politics...as I am with dishonest people scamming the system when they take office...
but lets move on to more current scams he is involved with

extract........................

Rudd in new mates lobbying stormRichard Baker and Philip Dorling
June 26, 2009 
KEVIN Rudd is facing allegations he lobbied for a whitegoods company formerly owned by his car dealer friend John Grant and a controversial Queensland property developer who recently faced drugs and weapons charges.

Opposition frontbencher Tony Abbott yesterday asked the Prime Minister if he had ever made representations on behalf of a Queensland whitegoods importer, Aussie Rent Pty Ltd.

Mr Rudd said he would have to "check his records" to determine any involvement he might have had with the company, which was dissolved in November last year.

On Monday, Mr Rudd's office was asked by The Age if the Prime Minister had made representations on behalf of Aussie Rent and its importation of whitegoods while on any of his trips to China as Labor's foreign affairs spokesman.

Mr Rudd's office took two days to respond and did not answer the question. A spokesman said only: "All of Mr Rudd's interactions with Mr Grant have been entirely appropriate."

Company documents show Aussie Rent was established in 2004 by Ipswich car dealer Mr Grant and Queensland property developer George Cheihk.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-in-new-mates-lobbying-storm-20090626-cyfy.html


----------



## rederob (26 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> Swan's misdemeanours, on the other hand, broke no laws. Misleading (i.e. lying) to parliament about giving Grant special treatment is not a crime.



What exactly is this "special" treatment.  Nothing prevented Swan or Treasury from taking the actions they did, for Grant and others.  
Apparently it's "special" according to the Opposition because Swan was kept informed and, apparently, because Swan actually spoke to a constituent about a matter that affected his business. 
Turnbull's case now only relies on there being something else that shows Swan's actions were greater that he has revealed to date.  The Grech email wa the smoking gun, but backfired.


----------



## rederob (26 June 2009)

kincella said:


> I am not as much interested in politics...as I am with dishonest people scamming the system when they take office...



 That's a lie!
If you were interested in dishonesty you would be questioning the Grech fake email, and Turnbull's association with Grech.  Not to mention how Abetz read from the fake email at the Senate hearing while questioning Grech.  
Turnbull is refusing to answer questions about the fake email, claiming "privilege" and invoking weird legalistic conventions.  And he's refusing to provide any details of his association with Grech, apart from acknowledging he has a right to speak to public servants.  
While Swan is releasing as much information as possible about "utegate", Turnbull has drawn the wagons.
The media smell Turnbull's attempts to "hide" from scrutiny and are going to dig even harder because they just know there is a lot more Liberal involvement in the Grech case than has been revealed to date.
Fake emails, deception and silences trump "special treatment".  And we top this off with all the "official" enquiries likely to dig up the dirt that Grech has unwittingly scattered through Opposition ranks.
If Turnbull does return to the next Sitting Day, as leader, Rudd's machine will run at full tilt to get in place a double dissolution trigger.


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2009)

rederob said:


> What exactly is this "special" treatment.  Nothing prevented Swan or Treasury from taking the actions they did, for Grant and others.
> Apparently it's "special" according to the Opposition because Swan was kept informed and, apparently, because Swan actually spoke to a constituent about a matter that affected his business.
> Turnbull's case now only relies on there being something else that shows Swan's actions were greater that he has revealed to date.  The Grech email wa the smoking gun, but backfired.




In this affair "special" means giving your boss's mate favourable treatment, not granted to others. As I said, Swan and Rudd did nothing illegal, (to my knowledge) however Swan misled Parliament and Rudd was complicit in it.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25692450-5013404,00.html



> Mr Swan yesterday repeatedly refused to say whether Mr Grant was the only car dealer who got a special phone call from him.
> 
> On three occasions on the ABC yesterday morning, Mr Swan avoided answering the question, instead repeating: "Well it's a matter of public record that I spoke to Mr Grant."
> 
> ...


----------



## rederob (26 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> In this affair "special" means giving your boss's mate favourable treatment, not granted to others. As I said, Swan and Rudd did nothing illegal, (to my knowledge) however Swan misled Parliament and Rudd was complicit in it.



The problem with your case is that the precedents set by countless previous Ministers will show that from time to time their Departments and Officers keep them thoroughly informed about matters affecting certain constituents and matters affecting them.  
What Swan did in Grant's case was not "special", but certainly fortuitous. I dare say that Treasury officials had a prior knowledge of Rudd's relationship with Grant, and possibly also that Swan had bought a car from him.  In that context, and speaking as one who worked in Canberra, it would have been poor form to not ensure that the Minister knew we were on the ball:  Read, it's a good career move.
What Turnbull needs is something from Swan, not faked, that shows he had directed his Department to provide a level service greater that what would otherwise be offered.  Without that, there simply is no special treatment that warrants pursuing.


----------



## Uncle Barry (26 June 2009)

Hi Rederob.

Lets all be interested in honesty.
Because it would be nice as a tax payer.

May I ask, as you appear to know some much about Mr KRUDD's personal affairs, 

What branch of the labour party do you belong to ?
What position do you hold ?
Are you related to the person called KRUDD ?

If you are none of the above, how on Earth do you know so much about the party and this PM ?

Kind regards,
UB


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

I heard Rudd is now a gay icon, has anybody else heard that yet ?


----------



## rederob (26 June 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> Hi Rederob.
> 
> Lets all be interested in honesty.
> Some questions posed..
> ...



Uncle Barry
I once contributed to Greenpeace under a false name, because at the time using my real name would not have been helpful.
I once voted Liberal.
I mostly vote for Greens and Independants.
I personally know my Labor State Member, and scrutineer for Labor at elections.  But I don't think my State Member knows I don't actually vote Labor, so please don't tell anyone. 
I have no association with Rudd or Swan, although photographs would reveal that I have met Craig Emerson on occasions.
I trust this level of honesty meets your approval.
By the way, I think I just saw Elvis.
False alarm.
It was MJ.


----------



## Uncle Barry (26 June 2009)

Good on you Red.
Just like your hero, you don't answer questions either !

Thank for you time,


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2009)

rederob said:


> That's a lie!




I don't think you are being very wise calling a fellow poster a liar, when you are trying to defend a serial liar like your hero Rudd.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> I don't think you are being very wise calling a fellow poster a liar, when you are trying to defend a serial liar like your hero Rudd.




I agree, and Rudd's also a gay icon now did you hear ? Seems so right.


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

I read it somewhere this week, it was insinuated he was gay...the article compared him and spouse to another well known couple....I cannot recall who or the article...I just thought to myself...oh well that explains a lot...not only does he suffer from the 'short man syndrome', hence all the hissy fits...but may explain some other rather odd things about him....
howard suffered  the 'short man syndrome', and turnbull probably does....hence all the screaming...actually there are quite a few  short men in parliament now...except garrett...who is a big tool...

oh and rederrob...calls me a liar...
that statement says more about you and your attitude...
as usual if posters cannot debate the subject...they attack the  other posters personally...

I note you are still on about the first email, disregard all the others, and the latest news about helping his mate out again...
hehehehe


----------



## Uncle Barry (26 June 2009)

Good affternoon Mr Burns,
"I heard Rudd is now a gay icon, has anybody else heard that yet ?"

YES !
I can only wonder why and think is this possible, even though he wants his hair dryer on a battle ground.

I also heard the swan who is only really a goose, he and MrKRUDD were both icons ?

I wonder if this is a fact or just nasty kind of thing started by, who knows ?

Red, whats the truth, as you know the team ?

Kind regards,
UB


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

He certainly pushes enough **** around to be loved by gays.
He shouldnt be ashamed if he's a gay man he should be proud of it.
Until he comes out of the closet he'll just have to be content with being their icon and I'm sure Red backs him up all the way, ya with me ?


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

there is that half man half woman creature....whats its name ???  wenny pong

I think that article I referenced to  earlier was comparing the Paul Keating marriage to the Krudds...
you know the fake marriage with the gay person....I never twigged he was gay until years later...I disliked Anna...thought she was very strange....

Gilliard...appears quite a bit strange to me...the man voice, the slow voice, then the girly giggly voice....argh....and shes soooo ugly
hehehehehe
strange bedfellows


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 June 2009)

I feel some of the posts made today on this thread are needlessly inflammatory and derogatory.

It may be worth checking your grog cabinets folks and topping up at the bottleo before continuing with the personal nature of the insults posted. 

gg


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I feel some of the posts made today on this thread are needlessly inflammatory and derogatory.
> 
> It may be worth checking your grog cabinets folks and topping up at the bottleo before continuing with the personal nature of the insults posted.
> 
> gg




I agree personal insults should be reserved for Rudd and company but unfortunately some seem to be insulting other posters.
I dont think they can help it it just seems to be part of their personality and of course they have to be reponded to in kind .....after all it's the only language they know.


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2009)

Discussion of sexual preferences has no place on this thread unless it is relevant to the question; "Has Kevin Rudd misled parliament?"


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

well if it makes anyone feel better....I really really disliked Mrs PM Howard, and that other really ugly one...the one that said about air travel security...she could take a pencil on board and poke someones eyes out....aarrhhh yes that was Bishop....in fact I probably disliked most except for Peter Costello....
and wait for it....I like Stephen Smith, Martin Ferguson, Simon Crean and Tanya...who appear to be genuine and diligent in their roles....I could probably name about 6 less prominent labor people that are very good.....but Rudd, Swan, Gilliard, Tanner and the rest of the labor loud people are not in that class.....of 20 cabinet members...only 3 are worth their salt....


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Never liked Crean since he had his boof head sticking out of an Ansett plane cockpit window with the other boof Fox, promising to save Ansett, then when the Govt wouldn't help them by paying for it they pissed off and all the Ansett people got the bullet, creeps both of them but back on topic has Rudd mislead parliament, absolutely by hiding his gayness and secret affair with red.


----------



## Uncle Barry (26 June 2009)

Good afternoon GG.
Sorry if I upset you, I only thought I was asking questions and trying to come to an understanding about some poster and his leaders and if what I heard was truthful.

OK, no questions from here on.

Trust the beautiful Queensland winter sun has not effected you too much ?
but, THAT was a question,,,, opps sorry.

Kind regards,
UB


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

I did not take much notice of the pollies until later on in life...and did not like crean in the old days....but he appears to be a good guy IMO now compared to the other ones....
are you insinuating Red Kerry and .......oh, forget it, look he goes 'all funny' and red faced and giggly with a lot of people....the ones he admires......then all threatening and bossy with the ones he dislikes....
Rudd has not only misled parliament...he has mis led the people of Australia...
note not much is working as they planned....set backs, stuff ups....
Howard as much as I disliked him, is going to look  rosy compared to this one, before this one is finished and turfed out...........

the radicals are in the house now....but we need conservative people desperately....and I hated Howard for not spending the money on infrastructure....
I am too busy to go on about all the wrongs of Howard...but that does not dismiss our current group of 'inepts '


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2009)

I think that the most likely scenario for the fake email is that it was not a fake at all but was organised  in the PM's office as a sting to trap the Treasury mole.  Rudd is over the moon that it worked so well.


----------



## Gamblor (26 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> I think that the most likely scenario for the fake email is that it was not a fake at all but was organised  in the PM's office as a sting to trap the Treasury mole.  Rudd is over the moon that it worked so well.





What absolute crap


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> I think that the most likely scenario for the fake email is that it was not a fake at all but was organised  in the PM's office as a sting to trap the Treasury mole.  Rudd is over the moon that it worked so well.




I've said that before and i've emailed Turnbulls office about it, I think that's spot on.

that also explains why he so confidently called it a fake before the police investigation.


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2009)

Gamblor said:


> What absolute crap




Why? Do you think I am giving them credit for being too smart?  Do you think the mole would have leaked an email that he knew to be fake? The only answer is that the mole had no reason to suspect that it was a fake.


----------



## Macquack (26 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I've said that before and i've *emailed Turnbulls office about it*




Burns the gun investigative journalist is smarter than the whole liberal party put together.

Also, noticed Burns has just passed Garpul Gumnut in number of post and in less than one quarter of the time on ASF. Says alot about quality rather than quantity. 

GG is much wiser and humble to boot, you should take note Burns.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> Also, noticed Burns has just passed Garpul Gumnut in number of post and in less than one quarter of the time on ASF. Says alot about quality rather than quantity.
> GG is much wiser and humble to boot, you should take note Burns.




WTF has that got to do with anything ? just thank your lucky stars you get the benefit of my wisdom so often.

GG wiser and humble ? Once again how the hell would you know ? 

So the less frequent the posts the better the quality ?
Good to see you're basing your opinions on the long standing proven method of BS

Now run along the grownups are talking.


----------



## Macquack (26 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> WTF has that got to do with anything ? just thank your lucky stars you get the benefit of my wisdom so often.
> 
> GG wiser and humble ? Once again how the hell would you know ?
> 
> ...




Burns, your are obviously not such a loud mouth in public (or the presence of other people) as you are here on Aussie Stock Forums, because you would only last 2 seconds before someone knocked you out.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> Burns, your are obviously not such a loud mouth in public (or the presence of other people) as you are here on Aussie Stock Forums, because you would only last 2 seconds before someone knocked you out.




Me loud mouth ? what about you you insulting worm, just get off the computer and go back to lowering the quality of life for those you mix with in real life.


----------



## Macquack (26 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Me loud mouth ?




Yes.

Burns, try to post on here as if you were talking to people face to face. It may be hard for you, but try taking "baby" steps.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> Yes.
> 
> Burns, try to post on here as if you were talking to people face to face. It may be hard for you, but try taking "baby" steps.




You mean like this ?



> Burns the gun investigative journalist is smarter than the whole liberal party put together.
> 
> Also, noticed Burns has just passed Garpul Gumnut in number of post and in less than one quarter of the time on ASF. Says alot about quality rather than quantity.
> 
> GG is much wiser and humble to boot, you should take note Burns.




If you're going to hurl insults you have to be prepared to receive as well, I never start these thing but I dont back down either, and not in real life either but I find people don't throw insults around so easlily, like you do, in real life for obvious reasons.

So you be nice and I'll be nice.


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> Burns, your are obviously not such a loud mouth in public (or the presence of other people) as you are here on Aussie Stock Forums, because you would only last 2 seconds before someone knocked you out.




LOL thats the second person(I've seen thats posted here) thats wanted to knock you out Burnsie. Your on a roll

Macquack heated debates are fine, but don't sweat over cyber drama.


----------



## Macquack (26 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> So you be nice and I'll be nice.




Good start Burns, or rather MrBurns.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> Good start Burns, or rather MrBurns.




I would answer that but it would only bump up my post numbers

I have spent too much time on here in the past, I guess I'm not the only one though.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> LOL thats the second person(I've seen thats posted here) thats wanted to knock you out Burnsie. Your on a roll




Can't answer this with my usual rapier wit as it will only inflame matters.

Non of this teaches me how to make any money with shares, I think I worked out early that it's just too hard and luck plays too bigger part in it.


----------



## rederob (26 June 2009)

Uncle Barry, my answers are now clear:







> What branch of the labour party do you belong to ? *None*
> What position do you hold ?*None*
> Are you related to the person called KRUDD ?*No*



kincella, your statement - which I called a "lie" - is not backed by your posts in this thread.  Perhaps you hold a private view that supports your assertion, but otherwise the calibre of your writings here smack of right-leaning politics above all else.

I note that Calliope and several others believe that Labor may have concocted the fake email.  Several weeks of questions in Reps from Turnbull suggest that neither Rudd nor Swan had a clue where he was going.  Then, when Grech gave evidence last week, it was apparent that Labor was caught napping with damning evidence, albeit pathetically delivered and heavily qualified at the time.

In retrospect, what makes more sense than anything is that Grech's demeanor was predicated on his knowledge that he was giving unreliable testimony as a result pressure from Liberal powerbrokers (including Turnbull himself).  I was a little hard on Grech initially, but now I realise that his deliberate uncertainty, and clear statement that what he was saying could be "false", will save him from being accused of misleading the Senate.

Perhaps of more relevance to the Opposition camp is that Grech on 4 June, when he had full knowledge of his actions and the various emails he was directly associated with, declared the process underpinning Grant's representation as having been handled "professionally".  In other words, it appears that Grech's evidence changed completely within a fortnight, and after Grech met with Turnbull and Abetz his recollections to the Senate were vague and tainted.

On the other hand, Opposition supporters believe the emails that Swan released actually implicate Swan as having provided "special" treatment to Grant.  Swan could have done a Children Overboard or Haneef case and leaked out enough biased information to support his stance until such time as the truth won out.  Swan is a lacklustre Minister and is not handling the warm blowtorch as well as he should.  That aside, it is probably frustrating for him to constantly say that he did nothing special.  He knows his Department did their job better than he now would prefer, but that is not the same as directing his Department to do something special: That he did *NOT *do.


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Can't answer this with my uaual rapier wit as it will only inflame matters.
> .




Maybe I'm just easily amused, but I always have a bit of a giggle when you manage to enrage people enough to post threats.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Maybe I'm just easily amused, but I always have a bit of a giggle when you manage to enrage people enough to post threats.




It's a talent that comes with hard work.......


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## moXJO (26 June 2009)

Redrob are you a union member?


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## kincella (26 June 2009)

Wow...I have been busy working and missed all this.....
this is worth a 10/10

quote from MrBurns...................

Me loud mouth ? what about you you insulting worm, just get off the computer and go back to lowering the quality of life for those you mix with in real life.  Today 05:08 PM 

ps...I dont believe posters should be allowed to threaten another with physical violence....the post should be removed.....and some time off for the poster, to study 'good blogging manners' for about 2 weeks.....with 3 strikes and your'e out policy


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

I think I have another brilliant idea....ponder this one..

Costello has until June 30th to nominate for Higgins....like next Tuesday....

....what if...Grech had nothing to do with this at all.....

but another who does not like Turnbull....and knowing both sides of Govt have moles....set this up.....just in time for Timebomb..Turnbull to implode...so Costello would be free to take his place....????

and as they used to say.....keep the b.......s honest


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

...Timebomb Turnbull was shocked....he seems to have had the most to lose...
but since there have been so many public servants who have been sacked or resigned....because they had a difficult boss, in the past year....anyone of them might have a better reason....to start pulling plugs from the inside, or the outside


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Lets face it threatening another poster with physical violence (that didnt happen here btw) is pathetic, in case they hadn't noticed we're on computers


----------



## kincella (26 June 2009)

I was thinking more along the lines of cases of cyber bullying etc.....which are viewed by the courts as being just as dangerous to another, as if it was out in the real world...


----------



## Calliope (26 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Swan is a lacklustre Minister and is not handling the warm blowtorch as well as he should.  That aside, it is probably frustrating for him to constantly say that he did nothing special.  He knows his Department did their job better than he now would prefer, but that is not the same as directing his Department to do something special




Rudd would dearly like to be rid of Swan. Normally he would admit that Swan misled Parliament and ask for his resignation. But of course he can't do that. Swan has too much on him, with Rudd's complicity in misleading parliament and the sting that he and boy wonder Andrew Charlton worked on Grech

Swan is sitting pretty and Rudd has to settle for a second rate Treasurer.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

kincella said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of cases of cyber bullying etc.....which are viewed by the courts as being just as dangerous to another, as if it was out in the real world...




I dont really understand that, if anyone insults me they get it back triple but anyway back on topic - 



> Swan is sitting pretty and Rudd has to settle for a second rate Treasurer.




WE have to settle for a second rate Treasurer at a time when we need the best.


----------



## drsmith (26 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> ......if anyone insults me they get it back triple......



Is someone calls you a disgruntled Fremantle Dockers supporter that's going to be hard to triple.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

drsmith said:


> Is someone calls you a disgruntled Fremantle Dockers supporter that's going to be hard to triple.




I think I actually felt my brain twist in my head trying to do just that


----------



## rederob (26 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think I actually felt my brain twist in my head trying to do just that



That would require 3 things:
Thinking
Feeling, and a
Brain
My belief is that the 3 strikes rule makes your statement redundant.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

rederob said:


> That would require 3 things:
> Thinking
> Feeling, and a
> Brain
> My belief is that the 3 strikes rule makes your statement redundant.




What is that smell ???? Oh it's you Rederob, how nice to once again experience your rapier wit


----------



## Julia (26 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Maybe I'm just easily amused, but I always have a bit of a giggle when you manage to enrage people enough to post threats.



Me too, moXJO.   Today's exchanges are hilarious.


----------



## MrBurns (26 June 2009)

Julia said:


> Me too, moXJO.   Today's exchanges are hilarious.




I do my best


----------



## jbocker (27 June 2009)

Swan - second rate? When was he promoted? 
He is a be-ute-y
(sorry couldnt help myself)


----------



## Quincy (27 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I think I actually felt my brain twist in my head trying to do just that






rederob said:


> That would require 3 things:
> Thinking
> Feeling, and a
> Brain
> My belief is that the 3 strikes rule makes your statement redundant.






MrBurns said:


> What is that smell ???? Oh it's you Rederob, how nice to once again experience your rapier wit






ra·pi·er / ˈrāpēər/ 
• n. a thin, light, sharp-pointed sword used for thrusting. 
∎  [as adj.] (esp. of speech or intelligence) quick and incisive: rapier wit. 



I hadn't heard of "rapier wit" before.  I like it.

There you go, you learn something new every day.


----------



## inenigma (27 June 2009)




----------



## kincella (27 June 2009)

I thought this was very appropriate to this subject........
since the weisel kids himself all of us are fools......when in fact only half the voting population put him up there.....

The philosopher Herbert Spencer once observed: "The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools."


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2009)

They are laughing because they hoodwinked the poor suckers sitting opposite...as well as the country.


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> They are laughing because they hoodwinked the poor suckers sitting opposite...as well as the country.



They are laughing because Turnbull's ego is bigger than his brain.
They are laughing because Turnbull's "smoking gun" fired blanks, before blowing up in his hands.
They are laughing because a peculiar inference about the the grant of a ute was nothing more than a pecuniary interest on the register, from Grant.


----------



## Timmy (27 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> They are laughing because ...




Whoopee-cushiongate


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2009)

rederob said:


> They are laughing because Turnbull's "smoking gun" fired blanks, before blowing up in his hands.




Of course, and they are fully entitled to gloat.  The Labor dirty tricks boys engineered the sting, and it was very successful.


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> Of course, and they are fully entitled to gloat.  The Labor dirty tricks boys engineered the sting, and it was very successful.



Laughable.
Not in bed with Julia?


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Laughable.
> Not in bed with Julia?




I notice that your posts always descend to petty  nastiness, when you don't have a rational  response.

I could respond in the same vein, but I won't stoop to your level.


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> I notice that your posts always descend to petty  nastiness, when you don't have a rational  response.
> 
> I could respond in the same vein, but I won't stoop to your level.



I tend to rely on facts, or the best available information.
Your ilk are throwing around wild theories about the fake email: No evidence to back it up.
Add to that your contention that Swan misled Parliament.  Again, no evidence, but if you repeat it often enough you will believe it.
Top it off with suggesting that Labour is up to "dirty tricks", when in fact it's most likely that Turnbull was up to something with Grech and other Party goons, and he got caught out.
As I said, your post was LAUGHABLE, as were Julia's earlier on, and in league with Burns and others.
As Rudd and Swan have said, put up or shut up.


----------



## kincella (27 June 2009)

as if....those two hyenas are not off the hook.....
oh and its obvious you have not bothered to read the emails......
where there's smoke there's fire.....


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2009)

rederob said:


> I tend to rely on facts, or the best available information.
> Your ilk are throwing around wild theories about the fake email: No evidence to back it up.
> Add to that your contention that Swan misled Parliament.  Again, no evidence, but if you repeat it often enough you will believe it.
> Top it off with suggesting that Labour is up to "dirty tricks", when in fact it's most likely that Turnbull was up to something with Grech and other Party goons, and he got caught out.
> ...





> Every improvement in communication makes the bore more terrible.




The internet must have been a godsend to you.


----------



## Uncle Barry (27 June 2009)

Good afternoon,
Good Comrade Red, 
Please don't show your inner self with these nasty stabbing kinds of answers, if you canot come out with a clean straight forward answer, maybe its best you don't answer at all.

You being a wonderful supply of how the labour party thinks and works is amazing and your knowledge of how Mr krudd and swan think and what they do is totally valuable to me and I feel others are thinking the same way.
I thank you.

So please don't spoil it all, all your hard work at protecting the party with these cheap shots at nasty stuff, you can do better I feel.

I noticed there is another Stock Forum with a Party operator there also, selling the message and protecting the party no matter the subject, and I now wonder if this a team play or just a Party directive maybe ?

Kind regards,
UB


----------



## trainspotter (27 June 2009)

Did you know that the six leading members of the Government from Mr Rudd down, the top six have a collective work experience of 181 years. But only 13in the private sector. If you take out of those 13 years the number that were spent as trade union lawyers, that total 11, of the 181 years only two years were spent in the private sector.

So the people who will rack up a net Federal debt minimum of 188 billion, the highest in our history, have virtually no experience in business.

So out of 181 years:

-    no years spent running their own business
-    no years spent starting their own business
-    no years spent as a director of a family business or a company
-    no years as a director of a public company
-    no years in a senior position in a public company
-    no years in a senior position in a private company
-    no years working in corporate finance
-    no years in corporate or business restructuring
-    no years working in or with a bank
-    no years of experience in the capital markets
-    no years in a stockbroking firm
-    no years in negotiating debt facilities with banks
-    no years running a small business
-    no years at the World Bank or IMF or OECD
-    no years in Treasury or Finance.

But these people have plunged Australia into unprecedented debt, and now have the gall to rub our noses in it like a naughty puppy caught weeing on the carpet. BUT they do know how to put on a spin to get them out of trouble.


----------



## kincella (27 June 2009)

*What a wicked web Wong weaves*
Submit comment Olga Galacho

June 25, 2009 12:00am
HOW could the Federal Government have tangled itself up in so many knots over climate change policy that even Kevin Rudd is confused about which bits of legislation have been discussed in Parliament and which bits are waiting on the sidelines?

The whole debate on how the nation will lower carbon emissions has become a complete and utter fiasco. 

No one is sure whether we will have policies this winter, this year or in fact ever, thanks to the government's inability to understand that in order to reduce carbon emissions you actually need laws that encourage investment in zero emission activities. 

Even after thousands of pages of analysis produced by umpteen government, non-government and business organisations across the 19 months that climate change has been a red hot topic, it seems the government is still clueless. 

Late yesterday, another spanner was thrown into the works when the Senate commendably passed a motion calling on the government to model the cost of achieving greenhouse emissions cuts of 40 per cent below 1990 levels by 2020. 
and this bit.......
She has a great talent for spinning rhetoric, but it is merely long-winded and obscure hot air. 

And as a legislator of meaningful emissions policy she has failed, failed, failed. Mr Rudd should remove her from the climate change portfolio and give this big task to a minister who better understands how to transition the economy to a low carbon future.

ogalacho@heraldsun.com.au 
Phone: 9292 1775



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25685985-5000117,00.html


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

kincella said:


> as if....those two hyenas are not off the hook.....
> oh and its obvious you have not bothered to read the emails......
> where there's smoke there's fire.....



You would be wrong!
Having read the relevant emails I concluded, as I have posted, that Swan has not done anything less than a Minister should do; and that his Department has probably done a little more.
What is pivotal, and Turnbull knows it, is that "special" requires something more than convention allows.  There is no evidence - yet - that Swan did anything "special".  Instead, the Opposition has tried to tie-in Ford Credit and Grant, on the basis that Swan directed it.  If Swan did, it's not written.  And if it was "said" to Grech, we have a major "credibility" issue: His recollection may be "false".
If anyone is not off the hook, it's Turnbull.  Oddly enough, if he is reeled in during the winter recess it will be via Audit or the AFP, or both, but not Rudd!


----------



## dutchie (27 June 2009)

Current position world wide:-

Politicians in power:

Time spent on governing = 1% 
Time spent trying to stay in power = 99%

Politicians in opposition:

Time spent on considered and constructive assistance
to their countries governance  = 0%
Time spent trying to get into power = 100%

Result = =>   World financial/economic/social crisis
(and this sort of sh#t)



.......... if only it was the other way around!


----------



## trainspotter (27 June 2009)

The facts are as follows:- A series of emails that emerged on Friday as a result of intense questioning of Treasury officials by the Opposition in Senate estimates hearings revealed: 

 Mr Grant's case was handled personally by staffers in Mr Swan's office and by senior Treasury officials; 

 Mr Swan was kept informed of the progress of the case, including via his home fax; and 

 Treasury head Dr Ken Henry was also kept in the email loop as to how Mr Grant's application was being treated.

Me thinks Mr Swan has overstepped his duty of care as Treasurer perhaps? I wonder if the other car dealers received this kind of treatment from the omniscient Mr Swan?


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

Uncle Barry said:


> So I noticed there is another Stock Forum with a Party operator there also, selling the message and protecting the party no matter the subject, and I now wonder if this a team play or just a Party directive maybe ?



I notice that when posters cannot apply intellect to an issue they change the topic, ask meaningless questions, and draw silly inferences.
Do you have a contribution that is relevant to this thread's theme, or do you want a play a game of cheap shots, that you stand to lose?


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Me thinks Mr Swan has overstepped his duty of care as Treasurer perhaps? I wonder if the other car dealers received this kind of treatment from the omniscient Mr Swan?



You are raising issues that were dealt with in Parliament ad nauseum last week.
The very best that the Opposition can do is infer that Swan's direct chat with Grant constitutes "special treatment".
*WOW*
A Minister spoke to a constituent about a matter that came under his portfolio responsibilities, and was subsequently kept in the loop.  Never happened before has it?
Oh, it has!
There were 12 years of it before Rudd, and many more before that under Hawk and Keating.


----------



## GumbyLearner (27 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Did you know that the six leading members of the Government from Mr Rudd down, the top six have a collective work experience of 181 years. But only 13in the private sector. If you take out of those 13 years the number that were spent as trade union lawyers, that total 11, of the 181 years only two years were spent in the private sector.
> 
> So the people who will rack up a net Federal debt minimum of 188 billion, the highest in our history, have virtually no experience in business.
> 
> ...




There certainly is a lack of talent there.

Turntable has much more private industry experience than Krudd. And certainly better access to funds from overseas.

*Stick a Ute up ya Mal!* 

*Revealed: Malcolm in middle of US donation controversy*
The Age - February 8, 2009 
Josh Gordon

MALCOLM TURNBULL has taken a large campaign donation from an American billionaire closely linked to the predatory lending practices that triggered the subprime lending crisis in the United States and global recession.

An investigation by The Sun-Herald revealed that Peter Briger, chairman and director of controversial "vulture company" Fortress Investment Group, contributed $US50,000 ($76,000) to the Liberal campaign fund for the Opposition Leader's Sydney seat of Wentworth last year.

Mr Turnbull previously held shares in Fortress, but offloaded them in 2007, just after US presidential hopeful John Edwards was forced to distance himself from the firm following controversy over its practices and *foreclosures on victims of Hurricane Katrina* in New Orleans.

Mr Briger made the donation to Mr Turnbull's fund in March, but he disclosed it to the Australian Electoral Commission in November. A spokesman for Mr Turnbull confirmed the links, but stated "many global institutions, including many Australian ones, have had a direct or indirect connection to the subprime crisis".

The Turnbull family had sold its Fortress shares for a profit of just over $1000, he said. *The spokesman refused to say why Mr Briger had contributed to Mr Turnbull's campaign coffers or if he was an appropriate source of political funding.*

"Like the Rudd family, Mr Turnbull makes full disclosure of all his interests," he said, alluding to the pre-election controversy over Therese Rudd's business interests. "Like the Rudd family, Mr Turnbull does not discuss personal family finances."

*The spokesman would not explain how a donation to the Wentworth campaign fund could be considered personal family finances.
*
*Fortress is referred to as a "vulture company" because it preys on vulnerable businesses and debtors and picks over financial carcasses.* Mr Briger was listed by Forbes magazine in 2007 as having a net worth of $US2.3billion. He is also a former partner at Goldman Sachs, the same company where Mr Turnbull made his millions as a merchant banker.

Mr Turnbull altered his parliamentary register of interests in March 2007, stating he had sold his interest in Fortress after the Washington Post attacked Mr Edwards for working for and investing in the firm - which had spent hundreds of millions of dollars aggressively expanding into the subprime lending market.

*The Wall Street Journal also identified Fortress as a company that had profited from the misery inflicted by Hurricane Katrina *after its subprime lending arms launched foreclosure suits against dozens of storm-ravaged victims.

Revelations that Mr Turnbull held shares in the company and received a generous political donation from its director come at an awkward time for the Liberal leader. *Labor has spent much of the past week attempting to paint Mr Turnbull as an agent of unrestrained greed and wanton neo-liberalism.*

But I take great offence to the last sentence that is obviously a fake, fraudulent, fabricated and distorted lie. Why on earth would the ALP be accusing Mal Turntable of unrestrained greed ? There's absolutely no basis for it at all  ROFLMAO!


----------



## MACCA350 (27 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> So the people who will rack up a net Federal debt minimum of 188 billion, the highest in our history, have virtually no experience in business.
> 
> So out of 181 years:
> 
> ...



Scary stuff when you think about it

Like I said before "We spend 250 billion dollars a year on defense. And here we are. The fate of the planet is in the hands of a bunch of retards I wouldn't trust with a potato gun."

cheers


----------



## kincella (27 June 2009)

think we need a new thread titled.....
Rudds list of broken and faulty pretend promises
so far we have had.....fuel watch, grocery watch, climate change, workplace change....
all a huge waste of our money....but he has been looking after his mate Grant....what is the latest...oh yes doing deals with China to help his mate...
thats the next episode....

*Reality hits PM as millions wasted*COMMENT: Dennis Shanahan | June 27, 2009 
Article from:  The Australian 
WHEN Kevin Rudd rhetorically promised in the 2007 election campaign to do something about rising petrol and grocery prices, he was making a promise he could not keep.

Yesterday, after the waste of millions in taxpayers' funds, the Rudd government conceded that reality and dumped its promise. 

This is a broken election promise, a betrayal of expectations of voters and a repudiation of Rudd's promise, a promise that was always a pretence. 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25697091-17301,00.html


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## rederob (27 June 2009)

Did't take long for the "dirt" bag to come out after Parliament went into recess.
Libs are digging into every detail on Rudd they can to manufacture another scandal.
But there is one tailor made for Labor (note the spelling Uncle Barry) should they wish to use it.  It's about Turnbull's announcement a day before the 2007 federal election was called, offering funding for Australian Rain Technology.  That company is part-owned by Mat Handbury, Turnbull's neighbour and a member of the Wentworth Forum, an electorate fundraising committee.
My recollection was that Labor knocked ART's funding on the head on coming into office, just as they revisited the hundreds of regional rorts that Howard's government had funded through a massive pork barrelling exercise that Audit closed the book on.


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2009)

rederob said:


> You are raising issues that were dealt with in Parliament ad nauseum last week.




Yes, and excuses for Swan and Rudd's shonky behaviour have been repeated ad nauseum by you.

But of course a bore is the last person to know that he is a bore. I suppose you have never wondered why people give you a wide berth when they see you coming.

You are probably a big hit at the local branch of the Green party. Being boring is what they do best.


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> Yes, and excuses for Swan and Rudd's shonky behaviour have been repeated ad nauseum by you.
> 
> But of course a bore is the last person to know that he is a bore. I suppose you have never wondered why people give you a wide berth when they see you coming.
> 
> You are probably a big hit at the local branch of the Green party. Being boring is what they do best.



More mud throwing - no evidence.
There is no substitute for consistency.
Keep it up.


----------



## GumbyLearner (27 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Did't take long for the "dirt" bag to come out after Parliament went into recess.
> Libs are digging into every detail on Rudd they can to manufacture another scandal.
> But there is one tailor made for Labor (note the spelling Uncle Barry) should they wish to use it.  It's about Turnbull's announcement a day before the 2007 federal election was called, offering funding for Australian Rain Technology.  That company is part-owned by Mat Handbury, Turnbull's neighbour and a member of the Wentworth Forum, an electorate fundraising committee.
> My recollection was that Labor knocked ART's funding on the head on coming into office, *just as they revisited the hundreds of regional rorts that Howard's government had funded through a massive pork barrelling exercise that Audit closed the book on.*




At least Ros Kelly went down for that kind of behaviour as Sports Minister.

Was Turntable Environment Minister at the time he gave his mates over at the Australian Rain Corporation the $10 million dollar grant?


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## kincella (27 June 2009)

look who is diverting...ducking and shoving now....
the question raised in parliament....was Rudd lying when he said he had nothing to do with helping his mate Grant out......
he lied when he said NO....
now we find rudd wastes his time as a PM helping his mate get contracts in China....thats  an even  bigger deal.....
none of them are fit for the role bestowed on them.....neither labor nor liberals...
except for Costello....
just like Paul Mullett appears to have got off scott free.....he is a crook and a rogue....there is no doubt about it....but the prosecutors stuffed up....it does not mean he is innocent.....
same us  rudd and swan


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2009)

rederob said:


> More mud throwing - no evidence.
> There is no substitute for consistency.
> Keep it up.




Sorry. It was a cheap shot. I know you can't help it. You are obviously a very lonely man.


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## rederob (27 June 2009)

kincella said:


> look who is diverting...ducking and shoving now....
> the question raised in parliament....was Rudd lying when he said he had nothing to do with helping his mate Grant out......
> he lied when he said NO....



You need to move on.
Even Turnbull has conceded Rudd has no case to answer.
His flame is on Swan's song.

Or.....
Have you got another email you want to send to PM&C and have it turn up in Grech's friend's computer?


----------



## GumbyLearner (27 June 2009)

kincella said:


> look who is diverting...ducking and shoving now....
> the question raised in parliament....was Rudd lying when he said he had nothing to do with helping his mate Grant out......
> he lied when he said NO....
> now we find rudd wastes his time as a PM helping his mate get contracts in China....thats  an even  bigger deal.....
> ...




Here's an interview about Turntable when Environment Minister.

*Govt defends $10m grant for untested rain-making technology*
The World Today - Wednesday, 24 October , 2007  12:36:00
Reporter: Tanya Nolan.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s2069159.htm

ELEANOR HALL: The Federal Government is defending its decision to award $10-million to a company to trial rain-making technology.

*The Environment Minister Malcolm Turnbull has announced the grant to the Australian Rain Corporation, a company part-owned by Rupert Murdoch's nephew, Matt Handbury.*

But researchers commissioned by the National Water Commission to investigate the technology have questioned whether the $10-million grant should have been awarded now, saying a more careful evaluation of the science is needed first.

*Mr Handbury himself agrees the science is in no way conclusive*, but denies his family connections have helped him secure the federal money. 

Tanya Nolan has our report.

TANYA NOLAN: *It's a technique developed in Russia in the last decade, and it involves sending electrical charges into the atmosphere to make clouds and ultimately rain.*

But the problem with it, says Neville Fletcher, a visiting fellow at ANU and emeritus professor of physics at the University of New England, is that it hasn't ever been examined in a thorough scientific way, nor has it been peer reviewed.

NEVILLE FLETCHER: I haven't seen yet enough evidence to say that I'm persuaded that it's going to work. The measurements in Queensland showed that there was more rain in the catchment area than there usually was when the equipment was running. But there was a lot more rain in that part of Queensland at that time as well. So it's a little bit hard to say. It didn't show that the equipment worked, but there was nothing to indicate that it didn't work. So it was a possible.

TANYA NOLAN: Professor Fletcher's conclusions are contained in a report released in August, prepared in conjunction with Ken McCracken from the CSIRO and commissioned by the Government's National Water Commission.

The report warned the commission not to go ahead with any trials of the technology until the science behind it could be more thoroughly tested. But it did say that if it could be done "at no great expense" a trial could be "worthwhile".

The report was produced after a small-scale trial of the technology was conducted in May in conjunction with the University of Queensland, which concluded there was an increase in rainfall at the time and recommended more scientific testing be done.

Environment Minister Malcolm Turnbull has now awarded $10-million to the Australian Rain Corporation, which owns the technology, to conduct a full scientific trial of it.

MALCOLM TURNBULL: The report commissioned by the National Water Commission recommended a further scientific trial. The University of Queensland went a lot further than that and recommended a very substantial long-term operational trial as well, which would have cost a great deal more than $10-million.

What I've endeavoured to do is to ensure that we do, we have both a meaningful operational trial and a scientific assessment so that we can investigate this technology in a timely fashion.

TANYA NOLAN: Professor Fletcher says the money would be better spent in stages, rather than funding all the stages simultaneously as the Government is doing.

NEVILLE FLETCHER: My preference would have been first to spend a smaller amount of money doing a careful evaluation of the science, and then, if that looked reasonable, to go onto a field trial. The trouble with jumping in immediately with a field trial in parallel with the science is that the science may turn up things which indicate the field trial ought to be done in a different way.

TANYA NOLAN: Professor Fletcher's view is supported by the water commissioner, Peter Cullen, who is quoted in the News Limited press as saying he is surprised the full $10-million has been awarded before the first step is taken of seriously evaluating the technology.

Chairman of Australian Rain Corporation Matt Handbury says he appreciates that argument, and agrees there are some holes in the science.

MATT HANDBURY: I can understand that logic, but as I said, even when you've worked out the science, how it works, we still wouldn't have demonstrated that it works, and the need for water supplies is so critical in Australia.

TANYA NOLAN: *You're name has come up in connection with your uncle, Rupert Murdoch, as possibly a reason why you might be getting all this money at once without the rigorous scientific testing?*

MATT HANDBURY: *Oh, I haven't heard that Tanya. I think I don't seem to be able to get my name in the paper without my family connections, which I'm proud of and delighted in, but I don't see how… Rupert's aware of this, he's pretty interested in the environment and climate change at the moment, and very interested, but he has no direct involvement, and…*

TANYA NOLAN: You don't think your family connection may have precipitated this $10-million windfall for your technology?

MATT HANDBURY: *Not in the slightest. I think that… not in the slightest, I can't see the connection.
*



Oh Kennas, I think this post would also be suitable in the Russia - What are they up to? thread


----------



## kincella (27 June 2009)

like I posted earlier....none of them are fit for the role bestowed on them.....neither labor nor liberals...
except for Costello....
just like Paul Mullett appears to have got off scott free.....he is a crook and a rogue....there is no doubt about it....but the prosecutors stuffed up....it does not mean he is innocent.....
same us rudd and swan
and I wonder  if we had some looking at travel rorts....what would that throw up....
there should  be no role in parliament for crooks......but it appears we have more crooks at the top than ever before......


----------



## trainspotter (27 June 2009)

rederob said:


> The very best that the Opposition can do is infer that Swan's direct chat with Grant constitutes "special treatment".
> *WOW*
> A Minister spoke to a constituent about a matter that came under his portfolio responsibilities, and was subsequently kept in the loop.  Never happened before has it?
> Oh, it has!
> There were 12 years of it before Rudd, and many more before that under Hawk and Keating.




Ya gotta be kidding me rederob?? You honestly believe that this does not smack of collusion?? Information sent to his PRIVATE home fax?? Denials in parliament that he had not received information in regards to the whole torrid affair?? Mr Swan claimed he was not following the situation closely?? Which part of this are you not getting? I concede the whole matter is a dismal failure on the Libs behalf and the smoking gun has blown up in their face BUT really !! Even the hardest died in the wool Labor voter must realise at some time that MAYBE ... yes just maybe the hand was caught in the cookie jar.


----------



## rederob (27 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Ya gotta be kidding me rederob?? You honestly believe that this does not smack of collusion?? Information sent to his PRIVATE home fax?? Denials in parliament that he had not received information in regards to the whole torrid affair?? Mr Swan claimed he was not following the situation closely?? Which part of this are you not getting? I concede the whole matter is a dismal failure on the Libs behalf and the smoking gun has blown up in their face BUT really !! Even the hardest died in the wool Labor voter must realise at some time that MAYBE ... yes just maybe the hand was caught in the cookie jar.



You are implying it is wrong for a Minister to be informed about a matter that he was asked to become involved in, via a representation made through a local MP.
I am saying it would be wrong if the Minister sought for a constituent a level of assistance *that would not be afforded to another*.
Swan makes no denials about what is on the public record, although he does admit he was not aware of the final outcome of Grant's case.  Then again, there is no public record - via the email trail or otherwise - that Grech or Treasury briefed Swan on such.
If you ever worked in Canberra you might have some knowledge of what happens and how.  I did and I do.  Swan's evidence may be as he says.  He might be telling lies: I don't know.  But I do know that as Treasurer at the time of these events Swan was heavily committed to the Budget process and Grant's sideshow was of fleeting and marginal interest.


----------



## Calliope (27 June 2009)

*Deep Throat Emerges*

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/explosive-twist-charlton-comes-clean/




> *In the latest explosive turn in the ute-gate saga, comedians Mathew Kenneally and Toby Halligan have received a copy of an e-mail sent to Malcolm Turnbull’s shedding new light on the events.
> *
> 
> From: Andrew_Charlton_4Eva@hotmail.com
> ...




A.


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## trainspotter (27 June 2009)

A breakthrough at last !!!!!!!! 

"Swan's evidence may be as he says. He might be telling lies: I don't know." (rederob)

There ya go ...... now doesn't that feel better? 

I have no drama's with Ministers representing their constituents to the best of their abilities and they should be making informed decisions with as much erudition as they can gather on the subject matter at hand. BUT when confronted with allegations that they were probably being over generous with their time and resources in resolving Mr. Grant's finance issues to stand up in Parliament and deny association beggars belief. This in itself is not a startling revelation neither. The same grubby politics has been thrashed out through the media for generations.

You don't have to work in Canberra to know how commerce works. You scratch my back mateee and I will scratch yours etc. ad infinitum has been around since the dawn of time.

I think what is missing here is that people are starting to grow tired of the spin being placed on what is coming out of Canberra and the mood shift is being shown here in this thread. The times they are a' changing brother.


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## kincella (27 June 2009)

a couple of days ago I posted the idea......that Grech may have had nothing to do with the emails and it could have been anyone from either camp....
now I find this.....
thanks to Calliope for the reminder to the  link

*Crazy Costello theory....the Costello Comeback*
There are even byzantine claims that the sham email found by the AFP yesterday at treasury official Godwin Grech’s house - which has today been pelted with eggs - was the political equivalent of an exploding cigar aimed at destroying Malcolm Turnbull’s leadership.

The theory has been given extra legs with revelations on The Punch yesterday that the AFP want to have a quiet word to former Costello staffer Paul Lindwall, who until recently was working as Mr Turnbull’s economics advisor, to see what role if any he had in the email affair. There are no suggestions of any wrongdoing on his part but he is a confidante of Mr Grech and the coppers are keen to rule him in or out of the equation.

It’s anything goes stuff in Canberra right now. The wildly speculative Costello talk does indicate one thing - serious Liberal disquiet over Malcolm Turnbull’s judgment on Utegate, and his ability to bounce back from a shocking 24 hours.

http://www.thepunch.com.au/hot-topics/peter-costello


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## trainspotter (27 June 2009)

LMFAO at the exploding cigar analogy ... love it. Very apt in the situation.


----------



## rederob (28 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> I think what is missing here is that people are starting to grow tired of the spin being placed on what is coming out of Canberra and the mood shift is being shown here in this thread. The times they are a' changing brother.



Some dots are missing.
The spin will keep coming.
But what will Turnbull do when finally he has to come clean?
He is claiming "privilege".  It's the pollies version of the 5th amendment.  
Turnbull is up to his eyeballs in the Grech affair and he's handling it by closing down all attempts to be questioned about it.
His days are numbered.


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## MrBurns (28 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Some dots are missing.
> The spin will keep coming.
> But what will Turnbull do when finally he has to come clean?
> He is claiming "privilege".  It's the pollies version of the 5th amendment.
> ...




No politician will divulge his sources same as a journalist so he can legitimately hide behind that one.
BUT - someone wrote that email and it's up to the AFP to sort that one, and it wouldn't surprise me if it originated from the Labor camp to trap Turnbull.

And yes everyones sick of the spin, he's not even good at it, too obvious.


----------



## rederob (28 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> No politician will divulge his sources same as a journalist so he can legitimately hide behind that one.
> BUT - someone wrote that email and it's up to the AFP to sort that one, and it wouldn't surprise me if it originated from the Labor camp to trap Turnbull.
> 
> And yes everyones sick of the spin, he's not even good at it, too obvious.



It's true that Turnbull can choose not to divulge his sources.
He will realise, however, that as there may be criminality involved, he stands judicial scrutiny and a possible jail sentence.  I think that would be an excellent outcome for the Opposition as Turnbull has proved himself totally unfit for the highest office in the land.
Problem solved!


----------



## Gamblor (28 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Ya gotta be kidding me rederob?? You honestly believe that this does not smack of collusion?? Information sent to his PRIVATE home fax?? Denials in parliament that he had not received information in regards to the whole torrid affair?? Mr Swan claimed he was not following the situation closely?? Which part of this are you not getting? I concede the whole matter is a dismal failure on the Libs behalf and the smoking gun has blown up in their face BUT really !! Even the hardest died in the wool Labor voter must realise at some time that MAYBE ... yes just maybe the hand was caught in the cookie jar.




The problem is it doesn't matter - at worst Swan tried to assist a mate and if that's something they think will turn an electorate they have another thing coming. If he got his mate a loan there could have been an issue but at the end of the day he got nothing so there is no issue. This whole situation is a joke and it's funny watching the desperation from the libs.

If anything there will be much more damaging information dug up against the libs in response to this childish smear campain


----------



## Gamblor (28 June 2009)

rederob said:


> It's true that Turnbull can choose not to divulge his sources.
> He will realise, however, that as there may be criminality involved, he stands judicial scrutiny and a possible jail sentence.  I think that would be an excellent outcome for the Opposition as Turnbull has proved himself totally unfit for the highest office in the land.
> Problem solved!





The funniest part is the Libs trying to compare this with Rudd and his AWB whistle blower. The fact Rudds info wasn't fraudulent doesn't even seem to register with these clowns.


----------



## trainspotter (28 June 2009)

Gamblor said:


> The problem is it doesn't matter - at worst Swan tried to assist a mate and if that's something they think will turn an electorate they have another thing coming. If he got his mate a loan there could have been an issue but at the end of the day he got nothing so there is no issue. This whole situation is a joke and it's funny watching the desperation from the libs.
> 
> If anything there will be much more damaging information dug up against the libs in response to this childish smear campain




In the scheme of things you are right Gamblor ... it doesn't matter in the big overall picture that 18 months ago we had NIL debt and we are now 200 billion in the red. Every man, woman and child is now responsible for $733 per annum for the next 20 years. Slightly off topic I know but somehow valid. 

The Libs are in disarray and have barely laid a glove on the Teflon Don known as Kruddy or Rudd 747. Malcolm Turnbull is no match for Kevin07 political/party machine nouse just as Mark Latham was not the answer to the Howard juggeranut. To say that Mr. Turnbull is guilty of going off half cocked is accurate. To imply he somehow had a hand in this poor attempt at a "childish smear campaign" is indefensible at best.

My point is that when the populace of this great land of ours are fed up to the back teeth at the B/S that streams from his mouth that we will have the right to vote him and his credit card tactics clean out of office. Once again the poor 'ol Libs will have to perform their neat hatchet job and toe cut the largesse and pay off that horrendous debt we now have draped around our neck like a millstone for the rest of my working life.


----------



## drsmith (28 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> BUT - someone wrote that email and it's up to the AFP to sort that one, and it wouldn't surprise me if it originated from the Labor camp to trap Turnbull.



That would not suprise me either.

On another note, Kevin will want to be careful calling an early election on the basis that he considers the Coalition as being down for the count. The ALP Labor government of WA (Alan Carpenter) tried that last year and lost.


----------



## Macquack (28 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> In the scheme of things you are right Gamblor ... it doesn't matter in the big overall picture that 18 months ago we had NIL debt and we are now 200 billion in the red. Every man, woman and child is now responsible for $733 per annum for the next 20 years. Slightly off topic I know but somehow valid.
> 
> The Libs are in disarray and have barely laid a glove on the *Teflon Don *known as *Kruddy* or *Rudd 747*. *Malcolm Turnbull *is no match for Kevin07 political/party machine nouse just as Mark Latham was not the answer to the Howard juggeranut. To say that *Mr. Turnbull *is guilty of going off half cocked is accurate. To imply he somehow had a hand in this poor attempt at a "childish smear campaign" is indefensible at best.
> 
> My point is that when the populace of this great land of ours are fed up to the back teeth at the B/S that streams from his mouth that we will have the right to vote him and his credit card tactics clean out of office. Once again the poor 'ol Libs will have to perform their neat hatchet job and toe cut the largesse and pay off that horrendous debt we now have draped around our neck like a millstone for the rest of my working life.




Nice attempt at a balanced argument there Trainspotter, except you did not refer to the PM (Teflon Don... Kruddy or Rudd 747) by his real name yet gave that respect to the opposition leader (Malcolm Turnbull...Mr Turnbull). 

Your bias would have been better camouflaged if you referred to the opposition leader as "turntable", "turncoat", "turnstile" or some other endearing nickname.


----------



## trainspotter (28 June 2009)

Macquack said:


> Nice attempt at a balanced argument there Trainspotter, except you did not refer to the PM (Teflon Don... Kruddy or Rudd 747) by his real name yet gave that respect to the opposition leader (Malcolm Turnbull...Mr Turnbull).
> 
> Your bias would have been better camouflaged if you referred to the opposition leader as "turntable", "turncoat", "turnstile" or some other endearing nickname.




No bias here Macquack ... through and through Liberal man myself and damn proud of it, worked for every cent I have and never been a member of a union or otherwise. As the MEDIA has been quick to anoint the chosen PM with such coloquial handles that I have aforementioned and so far the newspapers and others insist on calling Malcolm Turnbull, Mr. Turnbull and nothing else of any comic proportions, I reckon a clever journalist might one day write in a column somewhere:- "Mr Turnbull is exactly that .. he can turn BULLsh*t into caviar" ... until then I will stick to my camouflaged verbosity and slink away into the background.


----------



## Buckeroo (28 June 2009)

At the end of the day, I think everyone lost something from this debacle. Well, all except the media - I reckon they made a killing in advertising dollars from this whole affair. 

Maybe, just maybe, it was the media who drafted the email!

Anyway, with the pizling that Turnbull received this week, he still got up and talked to the media to explain his side of things. He didn't hide as others did and faced the music front on.  I do now have respect for the guy - hes got guts.

Cheers


----------



## GumbyLearner (29 June 2009)

No-one lost anything.

Mal Turntable didn't table anything!

He should RESIGN!

That's the core of the Westminster Parliamentary Democracy.

Goodbye. I could not put it more politely!


----------



## rederob (29 June 2009)

Buckeroo said:


> At the end of the day, I think everyone lost something from this debacle.



Weekend polls show Labor and Rudd "won" - both rose in popularity.
Turnbull nosedived.
Hockey touted by Lib kingmakers as next best thing.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Weekend polls show Labor and Rudd "won" - both rose in popularity.
> Turnbull nosedived.
> Hockey touted by Lib kingmakers as next best thing.




Congratulations Rederob. You have had a good week. Not only has Labor's dirty tricks department clearly defeated the Lib's amateur attempts in this department, but to put icing on your cake, a further 200 of your beloved illegal immigrants have been welcomed to Christmas Island.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Felicitations to you Rederob and your army of card carrying socialists. You and your ilk have managed to slay the media dragon and keep those unrepresented swill on the other side of the senate self flagellating and navel gazing that will last for several weeks whilst the factions sort themselves out.

If my memory serves me correctly a very similar thing happened with your mob around 2001 with Kim Beazly who lost the election only to be replaced by Simon Crean who steered the good ship "Credit Card" straight onto the rocks. Roll on late 2003 when a media hatchet job landed the ever popular Mark Latham to the prize seat of Union Leader. After a particulary nasty and spectacular meltdown in the heat of battle he was replaced by Kim Beazley Mk 2 on 28 January 2005. The media savvy Kevin Michael Rudd performed the best Brutus act in Caucus and managed to backstab his way to victory on the 4th December 2006.  To Mr. Rudd's credit he has managed to deflect any mudslinging thus far and retains the mantle of "Supreme Ruler" to this day.

This is the nature of politics. Cyclic and national mood swings are par for the course. It won't be long before the good citizens of Banana Republic Land will awake form their sleepy little coma and once again toddle off to the polling booths only to find themselves 200 billion dollars in debt. OUCH !

Hope I got the names correct and with just the right amount of bias Macquack !


----------



## MrBurns (29 June 2009)

Told you so ...hes also a full card carrying member of the gay mens club !
No wonder we all feel rear ended.

In fact he looks more gay than Bruno.


----------



## Stan 101 (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> It won't be long before the good citizens of Banana Republic Land will awake form their sleepy little coma and once again toddle off to the polling booths only to find themselves 200 billion dollars in debt. OUCH !



The debt level is a recurring theme here at the moment. Are you trying to say that if Libs had not lost the last election, Australia would not be looking down the barrell of debt in the coming years? I'd really like to see some solid forecasts on how the Libs would avoid debt and keep the economy ticking over were they still in power.

In their last terms Libs lowered debt but they also did so at the expense of national infastructure. For instance, the national highway north of Noosa all the way to Cairns is a damn disgrace and in worse conditions than the nation roads of many third world countries. It's easy to save mone when neglecting much needed infastructure.

People have been concerned about water for years, yet the Libs did nothing about unifying a national pipeline or similar for the good of the nation during one of our most prosperous time in recent history. 
Just what did the Libs put in place in the way of infastructure for the good of the nation whilst squirrelling away money?

It's a false economy to refuse to service the car and just keep driving it and driving it till it breaks catastrophically. Libs didn't worry about servicing anything, they would just blame the Lab party for all the breakdowns when Rudd took power.




Cheers,


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Which one is Bruno?


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Hiya Stan ... Yep that is exactly what I am saying. I believe the boys in the blue singlets have tapped the credit card a little too hard in my opinion. Ys, something had to be done to keep the country afloat. Giving $900 x 3 to the populace was probably not the greatest of fiscal policy I have seen. Not one job was created BUT it more than likely helped save a few.

How can I theorise if Liberal got in we would be better off ... I cannot. All I can do is look back at the public record and state categorically that when the Libs got in with Howard we had massive debt ratio then left behind by the Labor party. When he was voted out (and rightly so) the country had NIL debt. Hmmmmmm ? Recurring theme here or what? Labor gets in and spends like a drunken sailor then Liberal gets in and toecuts the economy and pays off debt.

Libs lowered debt? They paid the credit card off ...NIL/ZERO/ZOT/NUFFIN.

So, the road from Noosa to Cairns is in a state of disrepair? Who is in political power in QLD ? Anna Bligh is still at the wheel asleep I guess? Why hasn't she lobbied Herrr Rudd for $$$ to fix it? No wait ... she has just given up the fuel subsidy and Banana Benders now will pay what the rest of the country pays.

Oh, by the way come over to Western Australia where you pay $1.85 for fuel in the backlots (read Broome, similar to Cairns but not as pretentious) that do not have a bitumen road wider than a goat track.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 June 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Told you so ...hes also a full card carrying member of the gay mens club !
> No wonder we all feel rear ended.
> 
> In fact he looks more gay than Bruno.




They are both straight.
Sacha's girlfriend is gorgeous.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Oh yeah Stan ... The Libs had enough foresight to create a future fund to protect the superannuation of all the Government employees. And left enough in the kitty for Kevin Achtung Baby to place 20 billion dollars into the building industry. Not much really. The Federal Road Funding Policy has been a joke as not a lot of the taxes raised form petroleum seem to go back to this cause.

Now here's a consideration. After the National Debt is paid off instead of voting Libs out of office why don't we get the Government to SPEND our taxes on Infrastructure/Hospitals/Schools etc.


----------



## Quincy (29 June 2009)

> *Grievance Debate - Queensland and New South Wales Floods*
> 
> Two weeks ago I brought to the attention of the House the injustice of the Rudd government’s decision to deny Coffs Coast and Clarence Valley residents affected by the March 31 floods one-off Centrelink cash payments. On 31 March more than 400 millimetres of rain fell in 24 hours. In some areas 600 millimetres fell. In one three-hour period 250 millimetres fell in many areas. The Coffs Coast region and the Clarence Valley were declared a national disaster area. Since then the Rudd government has on numerous occasions rejected requests for one-off cash payments of $1,000 per adult and $400 per child, as were provided to flood victims in North Queensland in February and as were later provided to those affected by the flood event on the North Coast in May of this year. Since 31 March the Prime Minister’s office and the Minister for Families, Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs have continued to invent new excuses on why Coffs Coast flood victims do not deserve to be treated the same as flood victims of the New South Wales Northern Rivers and Queensland. Firstly, it was because they believed the damage was primarily to public infrastructure. When such advice was shown to be misinformed, a new excuse—that there were only four local government areas affected on 31 March, as compared with 24 council areas affected in May—was put forward. This is simply hollow rhetoric to the thousands of people who were impacted by the March event.
> 
> I believe the Prime Minister has also misled the parliament on this matter. On 25 May he told the parliament that those affected by the May floods would receive assistance which included one-off cash payments. The Prime Minister then told the House that he ‘authorised this assistance for people affected by the earlier floods in New South Wales in late March’. Less than 24 hours later the Prime Minister’s office told me that the same one-off cash assistance would not be provided to Coffs Coast residents impacted by the March 31 event.





As stated by Luke Hartsuyker (Cowper, National Party, Deputy Manager of Opposition Business in the House) - House debates on 15 Jun 2009

http://www.openaustralia.org/debates/?id=2009-06-15.159.1


----------



## Stan 101 (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Hiya Stan ... Yep that is exactly what I am saying. I believe the boys in the blue singlets have tapped the credit card a little too hard in my opinion. Ys, something had to be done to keep the country afloat.




If we need to put it into context, when was liberal last in power during a reccession?



> Giving $900 x 3 to the populace was probably not the greatest of fiscal policy I have seen. Not one job was created BUT it more than likely helped save a few.




As a layman, I agree. Yes it did save jobs. Let's imagine how many small businesses would be gone now if there had not been a spending spree.



> How can I theorise if Liberal got in we would be better off ... I cannot.




It's nice we agree on that.



> When he was voted out (and rightly so) the country had NIL debt. Hmmmmmm ?
> Libs lowered debt? They paid the credit card off ...NIL/ZERO/ZOT/NUFFIN.



 After an amazing run of world prosperity during their tenior. The Libs were willing to take credit for the good times, but simply blamed the Labs after the economic excrement hit the airconditioning just months after Rudd took office.



> So, the road from Noosa to Cairns is in a state of disrepair? Who is in political power in QLD ?




It is a national road and the federal Libs should have been *proactiv*e in starting national infastructure, not the State. Instead they did nothing. Nothing great was acheived in this regard in Howard's reign. *Nothing!*

As for State politics, that is a completely different story They deal with state issues. Federal governments deal with national issues. I have no persuasion to either party. It is just clear that 10 years of prospertity were squandered in many regards in the Howard era. Sure they did some good, such as lowering debt, but they did that at cost as I mentioned in the previous post. They look great on paper, but in reality they were caught napping.




> Oh, by the way come over to Western Australia where you pay $1.85 for fuel in the backlots (read Broome, similar to Cairns but not as pretentious) that do not have a bitumen road wider than a goat track.




If it's part of the national highway as opposed to state roads, you should be ashamed of your previous government. They have let you down badly.

As for cairns, I've never heard of it as pretentious until your post and certainly had never thought of it as such. I wasn't aware Broome was mountainous and lush green. I've never been been to Broome but assumed it to be flat and dry.


cheers,


----------



## Gamblor (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Felicitations to you Rederob and your army of card carrying socialists. You and your ilk have managed to slay the media dragon and keep those unrepresented swill on the other side of the senate self flagellating and navel gazing that will last for several weeks whilst the factions sort themselves out.
> 
> If my memory serves me correctly a very similar thing happened with your mob around 2001 with Kim Beazly who lost the election only to be replaced by Simon Crean who steered the good ship "Credit Card" straight onto the rocks. Roll on late 2003 when a media hatchet job landed the ever popular Mark Latham to the prize seat of Union Leader. After a particulary nasty and spectacular meltdown in the heat of battle he was replaced by Kim Beazley Mk 2 on 28 January 2005. The media savvy Kevin Michael Rudd performed the best Brutus act in Caucus and managed to backstab his way to victory on the 4th December 2006.  To Mr. Rudd's credit he has managed to deflect any mudslinging thus far and retains the mantle of "Supreme Ruler" to this day.
> 
> ...




I have one question for you - if the Liberals were in office would we have a deficit now?


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

Naturally we all worry about the state of the roads Stanley, but what does it have to do with Rudd and Swan misleading parliament? :dunno:


----------



## Stan 101 (29 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> Naturally we all worry about the state of the roads Stanley, but what does it have to do with Rudd and Swan misleading parliament? :dunno:




I have no idea who stanley is, but I'll field this anyway. 

It has little to do with Turnbull's frivolous accusations about Rudd's dishonesty in this affair. Much like the childish diatribes about our PM's apparent sexual preference that has been going on unabated for the last few pages of this thread. I'm sure you were about to post something about the irrelevance of those posts straight after the above post, though.


cheers,


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Gamblor .. read my response to Stan 101 on this deficit account. I do not have a crystal ball nor will I theorise what might have happened to the National Debt if Libs remained in power.

And now for Stan 101:

1) Did I mention recession? Nup. 200 billion in debt is what I said. Liberal governments have weathered economic downturns previously but nothing that is of the voracity we are experiencing now. How would they react? Dunno ... not a policy adviser on this subject.

2) Spending spree? What spending spree? I vaguely remember that an economic model showed the majority of it was saved by the recipients.

3) Agreed.

4) Going from memory here as no Google Rummage allowed. Didn't Kevin Rudd blame the Liberal government for this? Due to their lack of policy on the subject matter? When Howard and Co received the reins of power the World economy was not exactly booming. I reckon they "managed" to pay off the debt left from Labor as well as coping with the upturn in world fiscal policy.

5) Would it not be the State Government that is required to go cap in hand and plead for Federal money? Most of the infrastructure spending went into major cities. Hmmmm more people more votes I guess.

6a) Refer to quote above for this answer. nPerth received massive road building programmes. Tunnels, highways, flyovers, train tracks, ad infinitum.

6b) Wow ... you need to get out more. Broome has a very similar climate and topography. What I meant by pretentious is that it is not full of it's own importance. Nothing to do with climate. Part of the charm is it does not have a 4 lane highway leading to its outer limits.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

I agree with you Stan 101 ... we should not cast aspersions on Kevin Michael Rudd's sexuality. It is a very low form of wit and puerile at best. But like a good trainsmash you just can't look away when it has happened.


----------



## rederob (29 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> Naturally we all worry about the state of the roads Stanley, but what does it have to do with Rudd and Swan misleading parliament? :dunno:



I do agree.
There is no evidence that Rudd or Swan misled Parliament.
There is evidence that Turnbull is not being honest with the public, and accordingly they have marked him down.  Actually, his popularity fell by a record amount between polls, showing the dissatisfaction he enjoys.
I hear there is a good doctor now available to help take away his pain.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

Stan 101 said:


> It has little to do with Turnbull's frivolous accusations about Rudd's dishonesty in this affair. Much like the childish diatribes about our PM's apparent sexual preference that has been going on unabated for the last few pages of this thread. I'm sure you were about to post something about the irrelevance of those posts straight.




I already have, if you care to look back. You said *apparent* sexual preferences. You probably notice things that I don't.  

But you are right. His apparent preferences have more to do with his popularity in the polls rather than hoodwinking Parliament.


----------



## Mr J (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Giving $900 x 3 to the populace was probably not the greatest of fiscal policy I have seen.




It's great for me, as I get to spend it where I deem appropriate, instead of half of it being lost in bureaucratic inefficiency. Of course, at some point that $900 will be pinched from my pocket.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

rederob said:


> I do agree.
> There is no evidence that Rudd or Swan misled Parliament.
> There is evidence that Turnbull is not being honest with the public, and accordingly they have marked him down.  Actually, his popularity fell by a record amount between polls, showing the dissatisfaction he enjoys.
> I hear there is a good doctor now available to help take away his pain.




Popularity in the polls has nothing to do with character. Mahmoud Ahmadinejab has a popularity rating as high as Rudd's (it you believe the polls). This gives him the authority to destroy the opposition with more direct methods than Rudd is using.

Australian's seem to prefer the Machiavellian Rudd to the nerdy Rudd.


----------



## Timmy (29 June 2009)

Knobby22 said:


> Sacha's girlfriend is gorgeous.




V. hot Aussie chick.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

You betcha they have. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a .... ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ipvdBnU8F8

Guilty of trying to help one if his constituents. I think the allegation goes along the lines of:- John Grant Motors were funded by GE Finance who pulled the rug on his floorplan. He approached his local MP Mr Bernie Ripoll, who then approached Wayne Swan. Mr Swan receives a phone call from Mr Grant and refers him to a DLO. Mr Grant's case was then handled personally by staffers in Mr Swan's office and by senior Treasury officials; Mr Swan was kept informed of the progress of the case, including via his home fax; and Treasury head Dr Ken Henry was also kept in the email loop as to how Mr Grant's application was being treated. Senior Treasury official Godwin Grech said he recalled an email from Mr Rudd's office saying Mr Grant's case should receive his attention. Mr Grech heads OzCar, the Government's financing arm to which Mr Grant applied for help. Ford Credit applies for help from OzCar. Ford Credit allegedly advised by Treasury Official Andrew Thomas their application would receive favour if they considered taking on John Grant Motor's floorplan. GE continues to fund Mr Grant. No harm no foul.

Email and allegations leaked to Liberal camp via News Limited journalist Steve Lewis. Malcolm Turnbull raises questions of impropriety in the Senate. All hell breaks loose. Labor vehemently denies any knowledge of goings on at first. Under intense scrutiny from Senate Committe Inquiry admittance of emails and faxes. Vehicle being purchased by Wayne Swan from John Grant Motors thrown in the mix. 

Kevin Rudd attacks Malcolm Turnbull and questions email "origins". Malcolm Turnbull said he had no copy of the email and had been relying Mr Lewis's reports. He denied anyone in the Opposition had a role in writing the email. AFP called in. Parliament goes into winter recess for 7 weeks and the whole bunfight dies with a pathetic whimper. Except for in here.

Latest poll stipulates that the Libs have lost ground and Mr Turnbull is on thin ice with factional support waning. Labor loses ground in same poll but not as newsworthy. Nationals come out and declare now is not the time to go weak at the knees.

Joe Hockey can be heard sharpening his knives in the corridors of power.


----------



## kincella (29 June 2009)

another forum says there is a group GROMRP...stands for.... get rid of malcom recall peter....working fast and furious in the background atm
so its not hockey or abbott...its peter they want....that will turn everything around...


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## MrBurns (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Felicitations to you Rederob and your army of card carrying socialists. You and your ilk have managed to slay the media dragon and keep those unrepresented swill on the other side of the senate self flagellating and navel gazing that will last for several weeks whilst the factions sort themselves out.
> 
> *If my memory serves me correctly a very similar thing happened with your mob around 2001 with Kim Beazly who lost the election only to be replaced by Simon Crean who steered the good ship "Credit Card" straight onto the rocks. Roll on late 2003 when a media hatchet job landed the ever popular Mark Latham to the prize seat of Union Leader. After a particulary nasty and spectacular meltdown in the heat of battle he was replaced by Kim Beazley Mk 2 on 28 January 2005. The media savvy Kevin Michael Rudd performed the best Brutus act in Caucus and managed to backstab his way to victory on the 4th December 2006.*  To Mr. Rudd's credit he has managed to deflect any mudslinging thus far and retains the mantle of "Supreme Ruler" to this day.
> 
> ...




Brilliant


----------



## rederob (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Latest poll stipulates that the Libs have lost ground and Mr Turnbull is on thin ice with factional support waning. *Labor loses ground in same poll but not as newsworthy. *Nationals come out and declare now is not the time to go weak at the knees.



I guess Coorey has more brains than a trainspotter:


> Turnbull hammered by voters
> Phillip Coorey Chief Political Correspondent
> June 29, 2009
> 
> ...


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

kincella said:


> another forum says there is a group GROMRP...stands for.... get rid of malcom recall peter....working fast and furious in the background atm
> so its not hockey or abbott...its peter they want....that will turn everything around...




ROFL at the suggestion of Costello being the Messiah for the Libs. Many Australians do not regard Costello as a serious person much less a serious leader. Leaders do not smirk. Costello's smirk rouses popular antagonism and is widely recognised as a public display of narcissism. A white elephant at best. Tony Abbott is not ready to lead but makes for a fantastic straight man. But then again Abbott and Costello does have a nice ring to it?


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## awg (29 June 2009)

have'nt read this thread

If anyone was wondering how come the Federal Police knew the email was a "fake" so fast?

Labor knows Treasury has been leaking badly, so they would have used the resources of the Public Service and Fed Pols to track this down, as it is almost always either illegal or against public service regulations to "leak" any material.

Given the amount of time Godwin Grech was backgrounding the Libs, he would have been under suspicion for sure from his collegues, as the PS is a hotbed of intrigue.

The way they bust moles is to set them up, too easy, send a juicy email to to the target and see if it emerges.

I reckon Godwin was caught right out. 

I would suspect they have other evidence of his activities

He will be dismissed


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## Calliope (29 June 2009)

awg said:


> have'nt read this thread
> 
> If anyone was wondering how come the Federal Police knew the email was a "fake" so fast?
> 
> ...




You got that right. It was a well crafted *sting*. The young men Rudd surrounds himself with have plenty of talent.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

rederob said:


> I guess Coorey has more brains than a trainspotter:




Goodness me rederob you are in fine form today !! Phillip Coorey is merely reporting on the Herald/Nielsen poll. Does this take brains? What about the Morgan/Galaxy/Newspoll polls? I am sure they will all say that Malcolm Turnbull has lost traction and credibility. That is a gimme. Brains ... what brains comrade?


----------



## rederob (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Goodness me rederob you are in fine form today !! Phillip Coorey is merely reporting on the Herald/Nielsen poll. Does this take brains? What about the Morgan/Galaxy/Newspoll polls? I am sure they will all say that Malcolm Turnbull has lost traction and credibility. That is a gimme. Brains ... what brains comrade?



Oh dear you are not at all bright!
That's a "Galaxy" poll you have tabled, and Coorey has quoted from a separate one.  There was also a third poll.
I merely indicated that your statement about Labor losing ground was incorrect.
So to is your attribution to Coorey.
It's becoming a bit of a trend in this thread to tell lies, isn't it?


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## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Name calling will get you everywhere rederob. I tabled the Galaxy poll which evidenced the trend of voter no confidence in the two party preferred system. I did point out that Coorey had used the information from the Herald/Nielsen poll and not the Galaxy poll. I also pointed out that Malcolm Turnbull has lost traction and credibility. What part of this do you fail to understand?

Galaxy found the Coalition's primary vote fell two percentage points over the month to 30 per cent, against a one percentage point rise for Labor to 44 per cent. On a two-party preferred basis, the Coalition vote fell one percentage point to 44 per cent and Labor's rose one percentage point to 56 per cent. 

So on this matter I concede that Labor has actually risen 1 percent and not lost ground as I had predicted (Damn listening to channel 9 in the mornings)

As for the matter of typing untruths in this thread ... I will treat this with the contempt it deserves.


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## kincella (29 June 2009)

poll for the preferred opposition leader......costello 43%, turnbull 24, hockey 15, abbot 11.....so plenty think the same as I....

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22073824-5013404,00.html


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## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

kincella said:


> poll for the preferred opposition leader......costello 43%, turnbull 24, hockey 15, abbot 11.....so plenty think the same as I....
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22073824-5013404,00.html




Whilst I am in such a conciliatory mood and know when to admit that I am wrong, I humbly apologise for my opinioned rant about Peter Costello. Seeing how he has quit politics and is most unlikely to return and is about as useful as a bicycle to a fish the poll seems a bit pointless really. I only remember that the people and or polls did not like him because of his swarthy arrogance. And there was that perpetual smirk on his face too. Bummer for him.


----------



## kincella (29 June 2009)

last week peter said he would quit....but he just needs to nominate for his  seat of higgins and he is back in the game by 30.6.09... and the fiasco of turnbull since that date.....must have everyone running for cover....idiot turnbull

rudd does a whole lot of faces...licks his lips, kidding he is not smirking....
we need a responsible person in there...regardless if you think he smirks or not...versus a non smirking irresponsible tool.....plenty of tools around to choose from


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## Calliope (29 June 2009)

kincella said:


> poll for the preferred opposition leader......costello 43%, turnbull 24, hockey 15, abbot 11.....so plenty think the same as I....




Unfortunately they are grasping at straws. None of that four will ever lead the Liberals back to the government benches.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Well, let's hope he does. But I am of the belief that he will not re-enter politics or be no match for the everyman Kevin Rudd who appeals to the electorate by being a chameleon. At the moment he is enjoying too good a ride with the press, sort of reminds me of Nero Caesar actually, he fiddles whilst Rome burns. Back to the Peter Costello thingy .. can you imagine the headlines "Costello does the hokey pokey" you put one foot in, you put one foot out. You get the drift. Credibility would be shot, media circus, skeletons in closet about why the Libs didn't do enough in the glory years while he was Treasurer, lotsa baggage to carry. Once again this is only my opinion. The Libs will wander around aimlessly in the political wilderness until the population of Banana Republic Land wake up to themselves.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

http://images.smh.com.au/2009/06/28/608037/420mucci-420x0.jpg





> *A hyena pack hunts in Canberra*
> Paul Sheehan
> June 29, 2000
> 
> ...


----------



## awg (29 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> You got that right. It was a well crafted *sting*. The young men Rudd surrounds himself with have plenty of talent.




It was "bust a mole 101"

I know for a fact that the most highly sensitive docs are distributed with tiny differences, so if it comes to light they KNOW where it came from ( if they have leak suspects)

The PS leaks like a sieve, but there is absolutely no excuse if you get caught.

I used to work in the PS, and the policy was that you would be arrested by Federal Police, at your desk, in full view of your collegues, in the event of serious breaches.

Embarrassing the Treasure and PM is as bad as it gets


----------



## rederob (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> So on this matter I concede that Labor has actually risen 1 percent and not lost ground as I had predicted (Damn listening to channel 9 in the mornings)
> 
> As for the matter of typing untruths in this thread ... I will treat this with the contempt it deserves.



As you admit to typing an untruth, so should you deserve to be treated with contempt, as you kindly point out.
Pity your colleagues can't admit to their untruths.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 June 2009)

Red and Train, 

Wouldn't you agree that a prerequisite for politics is not to tell the truth.

Whenever a politician says something I assume the opposite will occur.

So I think that they all have been telling porkies, Rudd, Swan and Turnbull.

gg


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Pity your colleagues can't admit to their untruths.




As I have said before you shouldn't accuse other posters of lying when you know your hero Rudd is a serial liar. Perhaps you should also treat him with contempt.


----------



## rederob (29 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> As I have said before you shouldn't accuse other posters of lying when you know your hero Rudd is a serial liar. Perhaps you should also treat him with contempt.



Am happy to let you do your best.
I shall reserve mine for appropriate occasions.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Ooooooohhhh rederob you poor misguided Laborite, when did you become blind to objective truth? Your poor attempts at trying to pin the tail on the donkey is so far left of field that I am sure that you have forgotten as to why you are actually in here. Your opinion is inefectual as much as most of your rambling Labor loving posts. It is people like you that keep the party machine fervent in their belief. It is disappointing because for awhile there I thought you were a worthy adversary. Such a shame .. a crying shame. 

My opinion that Labor had slipped in the polls was exactly that, an opinion that I opined for public view. For this I have fallen on my sword and apologied enmasse to the collective. Surely you of all people have never made a margin call that did not turn out the way you expected. 

As for the contempt charges. Take it up with Herr Rudd and his cronies and ask them if their abuse of power in the Senate is anything to go by. 

Harumph comrade red. I pity you to your bilndness.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

Actually utegate week was a good week for the country. At the rate the Rudd government has been getting the country into debt, a week of doing nothing has saved the taxpayers billions of dollars.


----------



## rederob (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> My opinion that Labor had slipped in the polls was exactly that, an opinion that I opined for public view.



So let's do "threadgate".
At 9.22am you responded to my post of 6.54am, in which I made clear and unambiguous reference to poll outcomes.
At 12.56pm you made this statement; "Labor loses ground in same poll but not as newsworthy". 
Your defence is that in the 6 hours you had to review polling data on the impact of "utegate" you chose not to, and instead proffered an "opinion".
Turnbull had an opportunity to check the veracity of an email that he chose to use in calling for a Prime Minister to resign.
You had an opportunity to check the information that you now wish to claim as an "opinion".
You have either shown poor judgement, or have lied.
As a lawyer, I would vigorously argue the case for the latter based on your history.
As a good hearted person, I will concede your humanity.


----------



## gooner (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Well, let's hope he does. But I am of the belief that he will not re-enter politics or be no match for the everyman Kevin Rudd who appeals to the electorate by being a chameleon. At the moment he is enjoying too good a ride with the press, sort of reminds me of Nero Caesar actually, he fiddles whilst Rome burns. Back to the Peter Costello thingy .. can you imagine the headlines "Costello does the hokey pokey" you put one foot in, you put one foot out. You get the drift. Credibility would be shot, media circus, skeletons in closet about why the Libs didn't do enough in the glory years while he was Treasurer, lotsa baggage to carry. Once again this is only my opinion. The Libs will wander around aimlessly in the political wilderness until the population of Banana Republic Land wake up to themselves.




trainspotter

Completely agree.

But the real reason people will not vote for Costello is that smirk - it just gives an image of being arrogant. Turnbull has the same problem. Personally I would not vote for either of them.


----------



## Julia (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Back to the Peter Costello thingy .. can you imagine the headlines "Costello does the hokey pokey" you put one foot in, you put one foot out. You get the drift. Credibility would be shot, media circus, skeletons in closet about why the Libs didn't do enough in the glory years while he was Treasurer, lotsa baggage to carry. Once again this is only my opinion. The Libs will wander around aimlessly in the political wilderness until the population of Banana Republic Land wake up to themselves.



I hadn't thought about that potential problem for Costello, but yes, you're probably right.  However, on his past record for verbal jousting, I'd expect him to give as good as he received.  Academic anyway, as he's showing no signs of changing his mind.


----------



## Calliope (29 June 2009)

Forget about Costello. It would be too damaging to his inflated ego to sit on the front bench and be torn to shreds by the pack of hyenas as illustrated in post #488 plus Gillard. He only shines when the situation is reversed, and he's in control.


----------



## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

rederob said:


> So let's do "threadgate".
> At 9.22am you responded to my post of 6.54am, in which I made clear and unambiguous reference to poll outcomes.
> At 12.56pm you made this statement; "Labor loses ground in same poll but not as newsworthy".
> Your defence is that in the 6 hours you had to review polling data on the impact of "utegate" you chose not to, and instead proffered an "opinion".
> ...




rederob... I thank you for your suggested humanity seeing that you are a lawyer and all. I now understand your egregious attempts to be seen as the victor. Seeing as I live on the west coat the time diiferential is a moot point to establish a timeline. But I defer. Your response of requesting whether or not "brains" of a trainspotter was comparable to a Phillip Coorey symposium of a Herald/Newspoll poll was the ire of my contempt. Unfortunately I do not have this thread hardwired to my cerebral cortex and unfortunaltely had to spend some time on a business transaction rather than jousting the finer points of _who was on first_ and such. If you care to look back on my response you will see a full conceding apology to you and the collective readers of this thread, for this mistake and I also blamed channel 9 news for my preferrred stance on this matter. 

To imply that a "lie" has been somehow misconstrued "throughout" this thread is by far one of the better goading positions I have seen by anyone let alone a lawyer. Do I need your approval to suggest my history is somehow flawed? Tsk tsk old boy ... you should read some more lawyer books to do better than that.

Once again I reitereate that I thought of you in a far higher opinion than I do now. My mistake, I will not let that happen again.


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## trainspotter (29 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> Actually utegate week was a good week for the country. At the rate the Rudd government has been getting the country into debt, a week of doing nothing has saved the taxpayers billions of dollars.




Loving it Calliope, just loving it. And somehow strangely true. :iagree:


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## rederob (29 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> To imply that a "lie" has been somehow misconstrued "throughout" this thread is by far one of the better goading positions I have seen by anyone let alone a lawyer. Do I need your approval to suggest my history is somehow flawed? Tsk tsk old boy ... you should read some more lawyer books to do better than that.



You had the opportunity to retract when you posted the "Galaxy" table: You did not, until it was pointed out to you again that you had erred.
You had ample opportunity to check your facts, but you did not.
If your business transactions are as shoddy as your approach here I feel some compassion for your clients having to deal with such impairment.
In relation to the thread proper some may have seen Media Watch tonight.  It is moot that Grech's testimony to the Senate has been poorly conveyed to the public: In that Grech had 4 conversations with Steve Lewis (News Limited) the day prior to Grech's testimony.  Of what little we can be certain,  Lewis, who published the email in his paper, knows much more but is not telling.  At least not yet.
At an ethical level it is also moot that privileged, or confidential sources, in some jurisdictions lose their right to anonymity if it is shown they have lied, acted out of spite or malice, or otherwise chose to create a false truth.  The question Turnbull must grapple with is if his faith in protecting a liar will be to his continued detriment, or not.  
From a strictly moral perspective there is no dilemma in outing a liar irrespective of any supposed protection that may have been originally available to them - ie, the ideal that the source shall never be revealed.  That is because the "liar" chose to knowingly deceive from the outset, negating any sanctity of a trusting relationship from that point onward.
Unless Turnbull is already too deeply compromised via his relationship with Grech, his best course of action - should he wish to have a political future - is to come clean.  Unless, again, his utterances would in fact be more harmful to the Party than to Turnbull himself.
At this point I see trainspotter making special delivery of a sword to a certain politician.


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## moXJO (29 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Oh dear you are not at all bright!
> That's a "Galaxy" poll you have tabled, and Coorey has quoted from a separate one.  There was also a third poll.
> I merely indicated that your statement about Labor losing ground was incorrect.
> So to is your attribution to Coorey.
> It's becoming a bit of a trend in this thread to tell lies, isn't it?




Am I missing something red, or are you taking points out of Labors spin manual?

Attack the person 
Tell everyone they are telling lies
Change the direction of the thread to focus on the lie.
Raise doubt about their character.

The Labor force is strong in this one:

Hmmm name *Red*errob, also a lawyer and adept at political spin. 
Your not really Julia Gillard are you


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> Am I missing something red, or are you taking points out of Labors spin manual?
> 
> Attack the person
> Tell everyone they are telling lies
> ...



Sadly, MoXJO, you are.
It would be called relevance.
This thread is specifically about our Prime Minister potentially misleading Parliament.
In presenting their cases against Rudd, and Swan, posters have been extremely thin on substance.  A greater element of their position is smear and character assassination.  There is certainly no evidence that Rudd has misled Parliament, while the case against Swan hinges on whether or not the additional care taken of a constituent by his Department can be attributed to Swan's intervention.  On this latter point the argument is petty and Turnbull's case has disintegrated into repetition and inference, without evidence.
It is interesting that you choose to single out my approach in the way you have.
Mr Burns has for the moment left this thread, but in terms of attacking the person he gets full marks.
Calliope, who comes to the defence of posters when I call them for telling lies, has many times stated that Rudd and Swan have been lying to Parliament.  Yet that is a lie as he has no evidence against Rudd, and simply hopes there might be something against Swan.
It may be that I have changed the direction of this thread to focus on a lie, but as this thread seems to be about whether or not a lie has been told, should we allow the pot to call the kettle black?
In terms of raising doubt about a poster's character I would hope that the evidence is available here so that others can draw their own conclusions.  For example, we have Julia suggesting the AFP and Audit may not do their job credibly; implying they will protect any corrupt behaviour that might implicate Labor: I called that laughable.  We had trainspotter's foray into this thread suggesting that "A" was Andrew Thomas.  I went kindly on him to begin, but have escalated my response to his nonsense when he stupidly neglected to check his facts on poll results, and subsequently tried to claim that published information was simply his opinion and he got it wrong.

Back onto relevance.
Is there anything in relation to utegate that you wish to comment on, or would you rather be a commentator on those who do?


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## moXJO (30 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Sadly, MoXJO, you are.
> It would be called relevance.
> ?




Oh and you’re not guilty of that 

We have a bit of a wait before we will see any surface scratching of what went on behind the scenes. I do think there was an issue involving the PM that was buried in the spin. I also think TBull was an idiot for running into battle naked. The issue has been turned on its head for now. But labor holds deep internal grudges, and I would not be surprised if something more were to leak out. 



> Back onto relevance.
> Is there anything in relation to utegate that you wish to comment on, or would you rather be a commentator on those who do?




What more is there to say at this stage?

You sure went to a lot of trouble to defend and explain your position for an offhand comment I made. I do think you are associated to labor in some way (you seem a bit passionate not to be linked). And I think the way you are pushing certain comments is a reflection of the Labor spin machine. You don't need to defend Rudd against every attack if it's just pi$$ taking.

As for the above question I have to go for option B.


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

moXJO said:


> You sure went to a lot of trouble to defend and explain your position for an offhand comment I made. I do think you are associated to labor in some way (you seem a bit passionate not to be linked). And I think the way you are pushing certain comments is a reflection of the Labor spin machine. You don't need to defend Rudd against every attack if it's just pi$$ taking.



You are confusing an attempt to inject some balance and informed debate into this thread with "passion".
You can infer what you like about my "associations", but they are not relevant to what has transpired.
As I posted yesterday evening, Media Watch added an extra dimension to this topic.  I expected some comment from the Turnbull camp, but maybe they have run out of mud to throw or lies to trot out


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## Gamblor (30 June 2009)

It's funny how you diehard liberals seem to ignore the fact that it's a taxation revenue shortfall that is responsible for the vast majority of the debt. Every economist will tell you the liberal party would be indebt.. welll over 100 billion as well. The fact Turnbull and Hockey dodge the question on how much debt they would be in is funny, and misleads the Australian public. I personally find that more offensive than this silly utegate affair.

I swear the diehard liberals and the diehard labor unionists are as dopey as one another. They should get a room and make an army of retarded mutants we can put to work in sweat shops.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Ooooooer rederob. Remind me to never engage your legal capacity. In any capacity. Once again I reiterate "WHAT PART OF MY POST DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?"

I placed the Galaxy poll to evidence the lack of support for the two party preferred vote. It had nothing to do with Phillip Coorey, who took his information from the Herald/Neilsen poll. Why did I need to retract it? I also wrote that ALL the polls would show that Malcolm Turnbull had lost traction and credibility. Once again I reiterate "WHAT PART OF MY POST DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?"

YES rederob you ubiquitous jurisprudent, I did write in here that Labor had slipped in the same poll. The information at hand was from the channel 9 news. You claim I had ample time to "fix" or retract this statement. Ummm ... I believe that I performed this sorry task a couple of responses ago.  Once again I reiterate "WHAT PART OF MY POST DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?"

On the matter of telling "lies". The contempt that you show for your fellow ASFers is deplorable. Never before have I come across a person devoted to being so desperate to appear to have the upper hand. 

LMAO at you claiming to be a lawyer. It appears (under advice from my lawyers) that you have comitted slander in regards to my business acumen.

_If your business transactions are as shoddy as your approach here I feel some compassion for your clients having to deal with such impairment."_

You of all people claiming to be a lawyer should know far better than to commit to the written word on such matters.

Funny how you always play the man and not the ball too I noticed. I joined this thread and made some positive suggestions. You went, how did you type it? "I went kindly on him to begin with". I did not realise that this thread was for your personal character attacks on the other ASFers in here. No matter if they are right or wrong, they are still entitled to an opinion.

Now back to me. Cause I just love me. My original post that you decided to excrete your venom on was in regards to the alleged email from the Treasury, which was purported to be written by Andrew Thomas. This information was taken from column of the News Limited journalist Steve Lewis.

NOW onto the facts that this thread is all about:

Kevin Rudd misled Parliament with the statements listed below:-

“I have been advised that neither I nor my office have ever spoken with Mr Grant in relation to OzCar;  neither I nor my office have ever made any representations on his behalf; and I have not been aware of any representations on his behalf made by anyone in the government, including the referral referred to before by the Treasurer’s office.”

And that my friends is the close of this sordid little chapter. Guilty as charged your Honour.


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

trainspotter
It is poor form say your lawyers have advised that I have slandered you.
Or
Your lawyers are as incompetent as you appear to be.

On topic, you conclude with a statement Rudd made in the House that even Turnbull cannot fault.  
As I contend, you and your ilk fail to produce the evidence, and fail to maintain any semblance of an argument that is yet worthy of a decent hearing.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Hey rederob. I have just realised after you wrote this:

_ "I expected some comment from the Turnbull camp, but maybe they have run out of mud to throw or lies to trot out"_

You have no clue as to how to converse with people do you? That is sad. I now have decided that you are looking for the fight rather than creating objective criticism. It is in your nature to head straight for the gutter. You cannot help it. You use emotive words to cast conjecture and aspersions on anyone and everybody. Purely to get a kneejerk response. Like a schoolyard bully who cannot get his own way you lash out once cornered. I pity you. Soon there will be no more toys in the sandpit to play with rederob. No one to respond to your vexatious, fulminatious retorts. The what will you do? Sit on your castle on nigh and proclaim to no one that you are king? Congratulations to you rederob, my sincere condolonces as well.

You might want to read this:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/22/utegate-explained/


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

rederob said:


> trainspotter
> It is poor form say your lawyers have advised that I have slandered you.
> Or
> Your lawyers are as incompetent as you appear to be.
> ...




Poor form? Poor form? You have commited the spoken word to type for all to see. This is slander. I now expect it from you. You claim to be a lawyer, not a single lawyer I know would be prepared to commit to caling another lawyers firm "incompetent". It is like the hypocratic oath. You just don't do it. Deary me you are not what you seem at all are you?


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## MrBurns (30 June 2009)

A lawyer that supports labor ?, rederob you must be on the Govt gravy train , you know the one where failed or incompetent lawyers get a job in the sheltered workshop of Govt employment giving ****house advice to the underprivileged.

And from your bitterness I'm guessing that the REAL lawyers driving past in their BMW's piss themselves laughing at you as they watch you stagger home in your 1975 Nissan Pintara, don't worry we know you're _special_

Well done It's good to see people find their rightful place in society.


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## kincella (30 June 2009)

saw in the news today...pollies getting an extra $80 a day for meals...just for turning up....wow....single pensioners wait until Sept for 30 pw....the unemployed get nothing....and these freekin hyenas get 400pw for meals....

and no one here cares as rudd smirks 24/7 at the fools.....but the big problem with costello  is he has an occasional smirk....give me a break
 I am praying for Costello to come back....every day another billion dollars wasted on something foolish...
every baby will have an ear test and get a cochlear implant......
but people dying as a bed in hospital is not available....forget that...whats more important....
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

For all to see"

Kevin Rudd misled Parliament with the statements listed below:-

“I have been advised that neither I nor my office have ever spoken with Mr Grant in relation to OzCar; neither I nor my office have ever made any representations on his behalf; and I have not been aware of any representations on his behalf made by anyone in the government, including the referral referred to before by the Treasurer’s office.”

Taken from Hansard.

And that my friends is the close of this sordid little chapter. Guilty as charged your Honour.


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## Calliope (30 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Calliope, who comes to the defence of posters when I call them for telling lies, has many times stated that Rudd and Swan have been lying to Parliament.  Yet that is a lie as he has no evidence against Rudd, and simply hopes there might be something against Swan.




Strangely enough you haven't refuted my assertion that Rudd is a serial liar. I think you are on very flimsy grounds in this thread, but that's OK. For a man with so little sense of humour, you at least keep me entertained, with you weird notion that you are never wrong.


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Poor form? Poor form? You have commited the spoken word to type for all to see. This is slander. I now expect it from you. You claim to be a lawyer, not a single lawyer I know would be prepared to commit to caling another lawyers firm "incompetent". It is like the hypocratic oath. You just don't do it. Deary me you are not what you seem at all are you?



I would urge you to tell the truth.  A man with business acumen who does not tell the truth will run into trouble in their subsequent dealings with clients.  It is advice from one who knows the importance of telling the truth.  If you are asked about something important, perhaps very important indeed, remember to always tell the truth.

I could ask which lawyer gave you the advice on slander quoted earlier so that I could set them straight, but I fear that would place you in the position that Turnbull now finds himself in. 

With respect to your repetitive post from Hansard, which part of it has been shown to be incorrect?  If you have some knowledge that Turnbull does not, I will gladly pass on his contact details.  He is in a desperate bind.  Or rather, his kingdom for a sword?

By the way, where does one go to take the hypocratic oath?  Is there a society of hypocrites you belong to?


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Laughing at you now rederob. You are really clutching at straws. To private message me in regards to the split definitive over slander and libel proves to me how desperate you have become.

You just don't get it do you? 

My apologies for the hypocratic oath comment. It should have been "THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH". I have never heard/read/seen a lawyer written or otherwise state categorically that another firm is _incompetent._

The long bow I was drawing is that Drs. do not reveal patients confidentiality. Just like lawyers refrain form criticising other lawyers. Well, at least all the lawyers/barristers/notary of the publics, right down to the artilce clerks, I know that is. 

You have written in this thread that my business transactions are as shoddy as my approach in here. And you are the one to argue poor form? Huh, I must have been behind the door when they handed out "brains" as you so objectively compared me with Phillip Coorey. Please "go lightly" on me rederob, I beg of you. Pffffffffffftttttt ! Your clumsy attempts at proving yourslef right all the time is becoming dreary and tedious. Not only to me but to quite a few who bother to respond to your comments. 

I concur that Mr Rudd and Mr Swan will walk away form this whole debacle scot free and Mr Turnbull will more than likely lose his mantle as the opposition leader. This is not the topic of the thread. And neither are we. 

The topic of the thread is "Has Kevin Rudd misled parliament" and YES he has. I will not bother to post the three statements he made in regards to his department or his governments position in this matter. As you say, it has become repetitive and is there for all to see.


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> The topic of the thread is "Has Kevin Rudd misled parliament" and YES he has. I will not bother to post the three statements he made in regards to his department or his governments position in this matter. As you say, it has become repetitive and is there for all to see.



Mr Turnbull will be very interested to see your evidence as it will see Rudd make an apology to Parliament, and likely stand down as leader.
Presently you have the track record of a Grech, so do make sure that what you have does not slip through your fingers.
You could of course also post that evidence here and give ASF readers a scoop, but that's your call.


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## Calliope (30 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Laughing at you now rederob. You are really clutching at straws. To private message me in regards to the split definitive over slander and libel proves to me how desperate you have become.
> 
> You just don't get it do you?




I can see that you have got Red's measure. His tactics have always been to cotton on to a trivial error in the opposing argument and nag, *and nag* *and nag*

Like Rudd he is a toxic bore and a toxic nagger. But we shouldn't be too hard on him. He probably has no interests outside politics, and he is not really doing any harm.


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## Gamblor (30 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> The topic of the thread is "Has Kevin Rudd misled parliament" and YES he has. I will not bother to post the three statements he made in regards to his department or his governments position in this matter. As you say, it has become repetitive and is there for all to see.




If there was a case against Kevin Rudd misleading parliment you can bet Turnbull wouldn't have let up and we would still be hearing about it now. 

Sorry but you don't have a leg to stand on here


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Despite Kevin Rudd announcing in parliament the three statements I have posted so repetitively from Hansard that he or his departments had no knowledge on the matter but finally had to give the information out under intense questioning from a Senate Committee ? Goodness me, you have to be illiterate to not understand this one. Lawyer or layman it matters not. Just because the trial by media has found Kevin Rudd not guilty does not mean the cadaver is dead on the table. A week is a long time in politics. Or so I am told.

It is also pleasant to read your rhetoric has toned (somewhat) down to the level of a dull roar when imbibing your view on this topic. Instead of tackling the man you have merely gone for a fair bump in play. An improvement duly noted from this corner.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Gamblor said:


> If there was a case against Kevin Rudd misleading parliment you can bet Turnbull wouldn't have let up and we would still be hearing about it now.
> 
> Sorry but you don't have a leg to stand on here




No need to be sorry Gamblor. I admire your candour. Yes I agree if Mr Turnbull could pin the tail on the donkey he would rightly do so. Unfortunately his current style of mismanagement on the affair has let him down. You would think as an ex Merchant Banker and a QC he would have checked his facts in regards to the "fake" email (thanks to the jouranlist Steve Lewis) before going in jackboots and all? 

I notice that none of the media/press/AFP have requested Mr Lewis to divulge his information? It is being pointed back at Treasury level. Grech was silenced by his superiors. Why? Information was not forthcoming until a Senate Committee investigation. Why? Kevin told parliament one thing then backflipped and said it was Mr Swan who handled the matter. Almost Pontius Pilate in his mannerisms. This sort of behaviour has been a staid part of politics in this country. When someone crosses the line it is usually let go with a raised eyebrow. This time it wasn't and the Libs thought they could point score. It failed. Does this mean they are guilty of fabricating evidence? I think not. Does this mean the Labor Party has been caught out doing what governements have been doing for ages? Yes, I think so.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Great post. ROFLMFAO. Too true Gamblor.




Hey Gumby Learner, you might want to read this.

http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=79682

Tax revenue shortfalls are PROJECTED in the budget due to changes that the Rudd Government promised during the election. Has nothing to do with them borrowing 200 billion right now.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Completely agree Gumby Learner. I have written previously that BOTH parties have failings. Due to my Liberal leanings I can be a bit one eyed on certain matters. This is true for all of us. My comments have also been misconstrued to entertain certain ASF members with a different lean. I have bitten and much to my folly. I now realise what I am dealing with. 

YES the Libs during the glory years SHOULD have spent more on infrastructure blah blah blah blah. AND could have done a lot more with the unprecedented income stream of GST and taxes they received during this time. They did not. This is why we voted them out. 

LABOR gets in with the giant credit card and racks up the bill for which we all will be paying for the next 20 years or so. FACT. We will soon tire of this just as we did Keating. 

LIBERAL will be voted in eventually and true to form they will tighten the belt and toecut and manage to pay off the debt. Which we will get sick of because they are not spending our hard earned $$$ in the manner we want them to. 

RESULT:- Politics. It is cyclic. Nothing to fear. It is also the nature of the two parties. One is a socialist form of Utopia and the other is an entrepreneurial Gondwanaland. Such is life.

As for rederob. He is entitled to his right of reply. As you would have read and I have pointed out, I and many others do not appreciate his gutter tactics. His style is to get results quick and go for the jugular in expectation of a knee jerk reaction. That is his want. I prefer to have a slightly more morose application to derive a result.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

By the way Gumby Learner ... it was Gamblor that bought the taxation revenue shortfall to the table. Not me. I posted that we are 200 billion dollars in debt. So technically you are right, this thread is not about economics. It is about Kevin Rudd misleading parliament. To which I have not seen a response to the three stements that he made in parliament of "no knowledge" of the affair. He did. Senate Committee proved it. But somehow this has been turned around by some very clever people who are skilful in the nature of politics. SO be it. It makes for healthy debate and should be discussed rationally and with both eyes open. OR it could be a classic case of Doublethink.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Just a quick note on this subject _when have the Libs last inherited government in a recessionary environment_

Remember the Recession we had to have? Wasn't it the Howard governement that took over when the country was 96 billion in debt? They also survived the Asia meltdown and the 9/11 downturn. Gosh 

Anyways ... back to the fray !


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> ... this thread is not about economics. It is about Kevin Rudd misleading parliament. To which I have not seen a response to the three stements that he made in parliament of "no knowledge" of the affair. He did. Senate Committee proved it. But somehow this has been turned around by some very clever people who are skilful in the nature of politics. SO be it. It makes for healthy debate and should be discussed rationally and with both eyes open. OR it could be a classic case of Doublethink.



Still have not seen the evidence that you claim shows Rudd misled Parliament.
Can only conclude  it is like Grech's email.

As for Lewis' knowledge of the email, as a journalist he is unlikely to disclose his source/s.  However, as I wrote yesterday, having been conned over the matter, Lewis could ethically say who "leaked" to him unless it was a third party: In which case the originator of the email may be known to the leaker, but not Lewis.


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

Calliope said:


> I can see that you have got Red's measure. His tactics have always been to cotton on to a trivial error in the opposing argument and nag, *and nag* *and nag*



If telling a few lies constitutes "a trivial error" then I can see where you are coming from Calliope.


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

There you go again rederob. You just can't help yourself. Despite all the evidence laid before you and directly from Hansard you are still living in Egypt. De Nial (sic)

"Neither I, nor my office, have ever made any representations on his behalf" Kevin Rudd in parliament. The Senate Committe proved this to be a falsehood.

Just when I thought you were going to carry on this debate like a rational human being you slipped back into the quagmire of primordial ooze.

If somehow you believe a "lie" is that I wrote that Labor had slipped in the polls but not as newsworthy AND I conceded that I had heard it on the Channel 9 news and NOT checked the voracity of this statement then YES I am guilty. Happy now. This wil be third time we have discussed this point. I also conceded that I was wrong in this statement/opinion. Somehow you got your panties in a bunch and went on some incoherent babble about I had plenty of time to "fix" this. And threw in something about a Galaxy poll which once again I have taken great lengths to explain to you but somehow you still remain confused on this point.

Now from your mighty vantage point of looking down on us poor neophytes as to whom you choose to plunder could you please explain to the collective as to what part of this you are unable to comprehend? The gutter tactics is becoming pathetic but somehow strangely amusing from my side of the fence.

You have taken the time and effort to criticise, nay, crucify many people with your malignant strategems and it really does bring to light your personality traits. Do you suffer from a God complex? 

If your effort is to keep the thread going passed the 15,000 view list then you are sure doing a heck of a job. Other than that I am fresh out of ideas as to how someone can become as petulant as you are in your display of repugnance to the other peole in this forum.


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## rederob (30 June 2009)

trainspotter said:


> "Neither I, nor my office, have ever made any representations on his behalf" Kevin Rudd in parliament. The Senate Committe proved this to be a falsehood.



Where is this evidence from the Senate?


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## Calliope (30 June 2009)

rederob said:


> If telling a few lies constitutes "a trivial error" then I can see where you are coming from Calliope.




Obviously you aspire to high moral standards. Is it true that the taxpayer is paying you for all the time you spend pushing the Labor cause on this thread?


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## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

The evidence is in the form of the following:

Senior Treasury officials worked on Mr Grant's case. (amongst others)

Emails between Mr Swan's staff and Mr Grech were being sent to the Treasurer's home fax. (two other dealerships also were afforded his home fax)

Ford Credit Greg Cohen allegedly claimed he would receive "special treatment" in their 500 million application to Ozcar if they took on Mr Grant's dealership. (Mr. Cohen is now distancing himself from this allegation)

Swan told the Parliament in June his office had "made representations" to Treasury on behalf of Grant, but that Grant had been treated "just like everyone else" and the Treasurer "had no idea what the outcome of that was". (In his defence he might have not known the outcome, but unlikely)

If you're in any doubt Grant's application was receiving special attention read some of the emails that became public on Friday. Take this one addressed to the Treasurer, from his Departmental Liaison Officer, Andrew Thomas.

"Treasurer, Both Godwin Grech (the senior Treasury official who testified yesterday he'd been instructed by the Prime Minister's office to treat Grant as a special case) have spoken to John Grant this evening."

Under the heading "Immediate Action", the email to Swan continues: "Godwin will arrange for Capital Financial to contact John in the next couple of days. Capital had been very aggressive in the market, so is a good chance to take on John's business. As a fall back, Godwin will also raise John's case with Ford Credit when he sees them in Melbourne on Monday. John has not been in contact with either. We are confident we can arrange for John to be taken up by one of these two. Both Godwin and I will keep in close contact with John over the coming week."

Courtesy of further Senate Estimates hearings on Friday we now have a flurry of emails sent personally to the Treasurer from his officials reporting directly to him about the progress of Grant's application. They were even cc'd to the head of the Treasury, Ken Henry.

Now I am no lawyer but I reckon there should be a case to answer. These all relate to Swan. Let's not forget that Mr Grant is Mr Rudds neighbour, has previously given him a ute free of charge, donated to the Labor party with cash in kind and helped rasie funds to pay off Mr Rudd's legal bill.

Now all this is a matter of public knowledge and has come forth from the Senate Committee Inquiry into the affair. 

The outcome is that Grech will more than likely lose his job and have a nervous breakdown and Malcolm Turnbull will have some wonderful scar tissue arround his buttocks from the smack on the **** he got.

Like I have said in previous posts: This is not a new thing for a government to do, to assist a constituent. Normal pratice. Getting caught trying to cover it up then having to turnover the documentation to a Senate Inquiry. Uncommon.

As far as the public record will show ... Labor will have a victory.


----------



## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

Now rederob, as a lawyer and you were presented with this kind of information would you take this case on? Forgetting the proponents involved, let's say it was some random companies theoretically. Would you advise your prospective client that they did not have a case?

Or would you engage based upon the evidence before you?


----------



## rederob (30 June 2009)

trainspotter, there is no evidence from what you presented above that Rudd's oft quoted statement is untrue.
Money for old rope if it ever got to court.


----------



## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

No evidence? Pishaw you say ! The media has tried this one and not a court. Hmmmmmm Malcolm Turnbull is a QC. You would think he could make a judgement call to pursue. Sometimes it is better to be a coward and live to fight another day I am thinking.

Good to see that your eloquent response has a clean edge to it. Let' see if it can remain on track.


----------



## rederob (30 June 2009)

Rather a disappointing day for you trainspotter.
No credible evidence against Rudd despite your repeated assertions of his guilt.
Keep up the excellent work!


----------



## drsmith (30 June 2009)

Rederob,

What's your take on Wayne Swan's involvement ?


----------



## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

rederob said:


> Rather a disappointing day for you trainspotter.
> No credible evidence against Rudd despite your repeated assertions of his guilt.
> Keep up the excellent work!




Well rederob ... I thank you for the backhanded compliment. Greatly appreciated, I must say. A disappointing day .. yes, I got caught doing 73km/h in a 60 km/h zone. Damnation. I was actually rushing from my home office to my office block to respond to your retorts !! Te he ... like I said previously, strangely amusing from this side of the fence.

Credibilty is a matter of opinion. Like yours, mine differs. I would attempt to say that I have landed a few blows on the stinking carcass that we have bloated out here for consumption.

It is not ours to determine who is right or wrong. It will be a matter of fact for the minions to devour via the media. They will vote their preferences in good time my prickly adversary. Of this I am certain.


----------



## rederob (30 June 2009)

drsmith said:


> Rederob,
> What's your take on Wayne Swan's involvement ?



Swan bought a car from Grant, so Ripoll was probably told that when Grant sought OzCar representation through him.  Grant and Swan spoke afterwards.  Subsequent dealings show Swan's staffers and his Department did their utmost to ensure Grant's business was not going to be affected by several of the big insurers pulling out of Australia. 
For now there is no evidence that Swan sought special treatment for Grant, although he may have conveyed that verbally, possibly through his staffers.  It would be difficult to conceive his staffers would offer him up.  If there is other written evidence then Swan has cooked his goose.
From my experience in Canberra it is quite common for Departmental officers, such as Grech, to be aware of a Minister's prior relationships and dealings, and go out of their way to please.  
My suspicion is that Swan really is telling the truth.  My preference is that he is replaced by Tanner, but that's another matter.  
My rationale is based on the drying paper trail.  Had Swan been deeply interested in Grant's progress, Grech would have ensured there were emails to him or his office that clearly spelled out when and how the matter concluded.
My other suspicion is that February had Rudd's heavyweight Ministers working flat out on responses to subprime and the ongoing stimulus packages that needed to be put in place.
Swan was most likely briefed that OzCar had taken away pent up concerns from dealerships, and therefore could let the program strut its stuff.  Accordingly, my view is that Swan's attention to Grant was relatively fleeting, and that the "special treatment" that is claimed was more likely the result of his minions going all out to please.
Swan has been comfortable dealing with his version of events, and his body language suggests he believes he is telling the truth.  Swan is clearly uncomfortable in explaining why other dealers didn't get the phone call from him, but that says more about his lacklustre media persona than his honesty. 
Finally, my opinion is that Turnbull's tactics against Swan are more to do with a chance that something more will be flushed out.  Turnbull is smart enough to know two things.  First, his case that Swan has mislead Parliament was thin to begin, and has worn thinner over time.  Secondly, that he needs public opinion to back him against Swan, not just his Party.  On this latter point he is climbing onto a narrowing limb.


----------



## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

rederob, rederob, rederob. I am impressed. AND I don't impress easily. Please do not accept my gratitude as some sort of uneasy truce. The sententious and expressive way you have responded is of the utmost regalement that I knew could be found once we have cut away the facade of splenetic verbosity.

Fianally, a logistical answer that can be scrutinised to the nnnth degree by the other members of ASF. I eagerly look forward to future posts of the same degree of spirit.

Enough of blowing hot air up your rectum.

Agreed that it is more than likely the servants were out to please their masters in the way of Treasury officials furthering the cause of Mr. Grants application for funding via Ozcar. But like all good peasants they require a master to instruct them to do so. Like a football team when the players keep losing it is the coach whose neck is on the chopping block. At the end of the day it is THAT person who pays the piper. 

In this instance it appears that the best thing for both sides of politics was the winter break. 6 weeks for the whole torrid affair to die down to a pathetic whimper. It will go down in the annals of history as one of the more grubby name calling solicitations of our two party preferred Westminster system.  Harumph. Bring on the next tete a tete of our masters who will undoubtedly have a no holds bar approach. Round one is to Labor but the fight is not over yet.


----------



## rederob (30 June 2009)

trainspotter, I can assure you there are some public servants who are willing to to get so far up a minister's rectum that surgeons could employ them to perform colonoscopies without anaesthetic.
They require no other direction.


----------



## trainspotter (30 June 2009)

: D: D: D:     

And I believe I have dealt with at least half of them at some stage or another. From local councils to public servants and inclusive of a few wannabe MP's who did not cut the mustard.


----------



## Calliope (1 July 2009)

Rederob

  It was noticeable yesterday that you tried to appear calm and reasonable, even rational. Lest anyone should think that you have had an epiphany, it is more likely that you have been warned about your obnoxious behaviour and are walking a fine line.

While you are still in denial about Rudd ad Swan misleading parliament, you are now saying, based on your knowledge of the Public Service, that it was just a case of the boys trying to curry favour with the boss. You put it more crudely as is your nature.

The more likely scenario is that Rudd instructed Swan and Andrew Martin to look after his mate, and what Rudd wants, Rudd gets, or he will throw one of his notorious tantrums.

However, they have got away with it, and having set the precedent that they can lie to Parliament with impunity, their arrogance will know no bounds.

I get the feeling that you are in retreat, but before you disappear down your bolt hole,  perhaps I could give you a little advice. I received your childishly crude PM yesterday. I think you should seek professional help.


----------



## rederob (1 July 2009)

Calliope said:


> Rederob
> 
> It was noticeable yesterday that you tried to appear calm and reasonable, even rational. Lest anyone should think that you have had an epiphany, it is more likely that you have been warned about your obnoxious behaviour and are walking a fine line.
> 
> ...



With my god like persona I am able to converse within the trinity at a whim, so your advice is as useful as an email to Godwin Grech.


----------



## Calliope (1 July 2009)

rederob said:


> With my god like persona I am able to converse within the trinity at a whim, so your advice is as useful as an email to Godwin Grech.




Yes I know you have a very thick hide. By the way, who is the third person in your trinity?  Bob Brown perhaps?

But I do think you should take a little time off to recharge you venom glands and concentrate on the job you are paid to do by your bosses... the taxpayers.


----------



## Quincy (1 July 2009)

Article in the "Herald Sun" - by Glenn Milne - June 28, 2009 12:00am




> *Kevin Rudd in fresh OzCar claims*
> 
> 
> NEW pictures have emerged of Kevin Rudd and members of Brisbane's 51 Club - whose president, John Grant, is the used car dealer at the centre of the Ute-gate row.
> ...






> The club's website - *which has been removed *- billed itself as having "*strong links to the corridors of power*".






> A member of the 51 club, who wishes to remain anonymous, claims Mr Rudd met Mr Grant twice in China to help Mr Grant with his business interests.
> 
> The Prime Minister's office yesterday said Mr Rudd had "no record" of such a meeting.



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25700275-662,00.html


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## Macquack (1 July 2009)

Quincy said:


> Article in the "Herald Sun" - by Glenn Milne - June 28, 2009 12:00am
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25700275-662,00.html




Fair dinkum, that Glenn Milne is a tosser. He fails to even mention that the mafiosa "51 Club" is nothing more than a group of people born in 1951.

What ever medication Milne was on when he assaulted Stephen Mayne at the Walkley Awards has left him with permanent brain damage.

From now on Rudd is not allowed to associate with anybody born in 1951 or make that anybody born in the twentieth century.


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## MrBurns (1 July 2009)

As the champion of Labor bull**** Mcquack I'd like to ask you a question.

If the increase in the FHBG was to help jobs and the building industry why didn't it *only apply to new homes*.

What possible good does the application of the increase in this grant to existing homes do for jobs or the building industry or was it just to boost Rudds popularity ?


----------



## Julia (1 July 2009)

Macquack said:


> Fair dinkum, that Glenn Milne is a tosser. He fails to even mention that the mafiosa "51 Club" is nothing more than a group of people born in 1951.
> 
> What ever medication Milne was on when he assaulted Stephen Mayne at the Walkley Awards has left him with permanent brain damage.
> 
> From now on Rudd is not allowed to associate with anybody born in 1951 or make that anybody born in the twentieth century.



Macquack, that's a bit silly.  Obviously the point Milne was attempting to make is that - contrary to Mr Rudd's assertions that he hardly knows Mr Grant - they have a long and close association.


----------



## rederob (1 July 2009)

Julia said:


> Macquack, that's a bit silly.  Obviously the point Milne was attempting to make is that - contrary to Mr Rudd's assertions that he hardly knows Mr Grant - they have a long and close association.



It's called guilt by association.  The only people that fall for it are fools and imbeciles.


----------



## trainspotter (2 July 2009)

Didn't John Grant state "Of course I tried to help him (referring to Rudd), he's my neighbour, afterall is that not the Australian way?"

Bit more than guilt by association. His contact with Rudd was a bit more systemic and more along the lines of helping a mate. Here's a ute Mr Rudd. Here's $32,000 for you rlegal bill Mr Rudd. Here's a photo of me in parliament with Mr Rudd in a "no access area". On and on and on it goes. Get my drift?

Now as mateships go, isn't the Australian way that if I help you as a friend it is your duty to reciprocate to me at some stage? If it isn't then I have been doing something wrong to help my mates over the past 30 years or so.


----------



## Calliope (2 July 2009)

rederob said:


> It's called guilt by association.  The only people that fall for it are fools and imbeciles.




...or people who know Rudd is a liar.


----------



## rederob (2 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Didn't John Grant state "Of course I tried to help him (referring to Rudd), he's my neighbour, afterall is that not the Australian way?"



Well before Rudd was even considered a "possible" potential leader of Labor he was involved in lots of things. Grant and many others in Rudd's vicinity were concerned about Brisbane Airport's parallel runway plans, and Rudd personally met the cost of a legal campaign against it.  Grant would have paid his $85 to attend the Ban Aircraft over Residential Brisbane fundraiser which, ultimately, contributed $28k towards Rudd's efforts.

Milne's smear tactics are quite pathetic and simply show his journalistic ineptitude to those who have  clue.  Milne could use the same principles to link me with half a dozen federal and state MPs.  Having actually been in the federal Cabinet room, and been pictured at the Speaker's Chair, perhaps my links with politicians are stronger than Grants!  

Far from it.  Howard was photographed with some very dodgy characters over the years, and many business people (such as Russo in Queensland) like to prominently display pictures with political leaders.  It means little in the greater scheme of things.  Except when ill informed dirt mongers like Milne try to get some attention for themselves when they run out of relevant facts.


----------



## Julia (2 July 2009)

rederob said:


> It's called guilt by association.  The only people that fall for it are fools and imbeciles.



No Rederob, that particular cliche doesn't apply in this context.

What Mr Milne was attempting to demonstrate was nothing more than the untruth of Mr Rudd's claim that he hardly knew Mr Grant.


----------



## Calliope (2 July 2009)

rederob said:


> Having actually been in the federal Cabinet room, and been pictured at the Speaker's Chair, perhaps my links with politicians are stronger than Grants!




Well that's not surprising. You are certainly a willing party hack. That's why you are allowed to spread your party propaganda at the taxpayer's expense.


----------



## nunthewiser (2 July 2009)

Kevin Rudd is great

he would not mislead anyone

look at his face , honest john he should be known as

please stop picking on him


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## rederob (2 July 2009)

Julia said:


> No Rederob, that particular cliche doesn't apply in this context.
> What Mr Milne was attempting to demonstrate was nothing more than the untruth of Mr Rudd's claim that he hardly knew Mr Grant.



Please produce evidence of Rudd making this claim.


----------



## Calliope (2 July 2009)

Rudd and Gillard want to start a witch hunt into the ethics of News Limited newspapers They are not happy about the coverage of  Kevvy's utegate antics. They claim the Brisbane Courier-Mail kept rubbishing him even after he told everybody he was innocent. 

Rudd's problem is that he has such a reputation for being a prevaricator, that who knows when he is telling the truth.

I suppose that after they censor the internet, newspapers will be next. They will probably set up a Canberra Pravda.


----------



## Uncle Barry (2 July 2009)

"I suppose that after they censor the internet, newspapers will be next. They will probably set up a Canberra Pravda."

AND that just may not be a joke, it may very well be the truth in the not too distant future for everybody here in Australia.

PS, if you just laugh at the claim, then your not thinking too clearly !

PPS, and Comrade Rob will be in charge of all the propaganda as a reward for all the good work he is doing for the party here.

UB


----------



## Macquack (2 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> So you be nice and I'll be nice.






MrBurns said:


> As the champion of Labor bull**** Mcquack



Not nice Burns, the champion of loud mouthed self-adulating bufoons.

Now to answer your question.


MrBurns said:


> If the increase in the FHBG was to help jobs and the building industry why didn't it *only apply to new homes*.



Beats me, maybe saved a few jobs of your former profession (RE sharks).


MrBurns said:


> What possible good does the application of the increase in this grant to existing homes do for jobs or the building industry or was it just to boost Rudds popularity ?



It does SFA for the building industry. I never said it was a good idea.

Burns, you are not the only one who thinks this policy is propping up the real estate market.


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## MrBurns (2 July 2009)

Macquack said:


> Not nice Burns, the champion of loud mouthed self-adulating bufoons.




Oh surely you can do better than that, I dont feel the least bit insulted.

Real estate agents irritate me too, there was a great sketch once in an English show, forgotten the name but the song went "We aresole agents for your property" and so on.


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## trainspotter (3 July 2009)

Goodness me ... get the kleenex ! This place has become sanitised at last. Meaningful debate instead of threatening insults ! Whale Oil Beef Hooked.

I reckon that Mr Grant had quite a bit more involvement with Herr Rudd and his pack of socialite hounds other than saying G'day over the fence. Afterall, he is his neighbour. If I lived next door to the PM of Banana Republic Land then I am damn sure I would make it my business to be his newest, bestest friend. Here mate, have a ute, here mate let me help you with your legal bills, here mate join our little Club 51.

I love it how these FACTS are so neatly swept under the carpet by the boys in the blue singlets. I can see John Grant making the phone call to the car yard dealer principal now. "Yeah mate, it's John here. Yeah, we are gonna give this bloke Kevin Rudd an $8,000 Hilux ute to use as a propaganda machine in this election thingy. What do we want for it? Nuffin my good man" BULLTWANG  or this Nah, we was all born in 1951, that is why we have a club. So our precious members can be photographed in the "NO ACCESS" area of parliament. Ya got to be kidding me? And on and on it goes. YOU might think their is nothing there BUT we free thinking individuals know better.

Unless I am suffering from cerebral myopia and today is "opposite day" there is a stench about this man and his ideals of good governance. To treat the voting public as imbecilic sheep that can be hoodwinked with a few rhetoric questions about his guilt is surreal. "Now let me ask you this" before vaguely attempting to answer a question is Ship High In Transit speak. He has many more oft used quotes that mislead the direction of the interviewer and ultimately the mug punter in the street. We as children love a good magician, "Look Mummy, he pulled a shiny silver thingy out of his ear!" When we grow up we will soon discover that the magic is over and the conjurer known as Kevin 747 has left the building with the nights takings. Oh yeah, we are 200 billion in debt. Does this not startle anyone?


----------



## kincella (3 July 2009)

In Canberra an old priest lay dying in the hospital. For years he had
faithfully served the people of the nation's capital. He motioned for 
his nurse to come near.

"Yes, Father?" said the nurse.

"I would really like to see Prime Minister and the Treasurer before I 
die", whispered the priest.

"I'll see what I can do, Father", replied the nurse.

The nurse sent the request to Parliament and waited for a response.

Soon the word arrived; Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and Treasurer Wayne Swan
would be delighted to visit the priest.

As they went to the hospital, Kevin commented to Wayne, "I don't know why
the old priest wants to see us, but it will certainly will help our images
and might even get me re-elected Prime Minister. After all, I'm IN IT TO
WIN IT". Wayne agreed that it was a good thing.

When they arrived at the priest's room, the priest took Kevins hand in 
his right hand and Waynes hand in his left.

There was silence and a look of serenity on the old priest's face.

Finally Kevin Rudd spoke.. "Father, of all the people you could have 
chosen, why did you choose us to be with you as you near the end?"

The old priest slowly replied, "I have always tried to pattern my life 
after our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

"Amen", said Kevin. "Amen", said Wayne.

The old priest continued, "Jesus died between two lying thieves; 

I would like to do the same."


ps I dont know who the author was....but its just brilliant
I copied it for the joke forum...but could not resist it as appropriate for this thread...cheers


----------



## MrBurns (3 July 2009)

It's a joke ? Seemed realistic enough to me.


----------



## kincella (3 July 2009)

I know...I believe they are both rotten ...and liars


----------



## Calliope (3 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Goodness me ... get the kleenex ! This place has become sanitised at last. Meaningful debate instead of threatening insults




He'll be back full of hate before long. At present, like a serial road-rager, he is watching his demerits.


----------



## rederob (3 July 2009)

Julia said:


> No Rederob, that particular cliche doesn't apply in this context.
> 
> What Mr Milne was attempting to demonstrate was nothing more than the untruth of Mr Rudd's claim that he hardly knew Mr Grant.



To begin
Milne's article made no such claim.
Milne's article showed that the 51 Club members met with Ripoll in Canberra, and were photographed at Parliament House, including with Rudd.  The "secure area" references are a furphy in that very few areas are out of bounds when constituents are in the company of the PM or guests of MPs.
There is no evidence that Rudd is, was or even could be a member of the 51 Club, especially as he was not born in 1951.
While the average reader would work out quickly that Milne was simply trying to smear Rudd through inference, it appears that others choose realities that suit their beliefs.
Those issues aside, exactly what is the harm in being associated with a group that want to get together, share interests, and have a good time?  The fact they may claim to have influence in the corridors of power is neither here nor there.  As Rudd has never denied his knowledge of Grant nor his association with the 51 Club, and has the "ute" on the register of pecuniary interests, the Opposition and grubby journos like Milne are barking up the wrong tree by digging up these old bones.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 July 2009)

rederob said:


> To begin
> Milne's article made no such claim.
> Milne's article showed that the 51 Club members met with Ripoll in Canberra, and were photographed at Parliament House, including with Rudd.  The "secure area" references are a furphy in that very few areas are out of bounds when constituents are in the company of the PM or guests of MPs.
> There is no evidence that Rudd is, was or even could be a member of the 51 Club, especially as he was not born in 1951.
> ...




Red mate I've had a fair bit to do with politicians Labor, Country Party (before they changed to Nats) and Liberals/coalition on my way to riches. I have also had a fair interaction with some media movers and shakers.

I find that parties and news organisations are loose associations of grubbers ready to forward their own agenda , at the expense of their party, constituents and readers. Without exception.

Its human nature.

Ripoll is a mate of Rudd and Grant. I'd never heard of Ripoll before he decided to front the Inquiry into Storm by the way.

Rudd could quite easily be a Liberal PM. 

So don't get too distraught about it all.

gg


----------



## rederob (3 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> So don't get too distraught about it all.
> gg



Unsubstantiated claims may as well be lies.
There are some here that are very gullible, have woeful comprehension skills, and make statements that are little short of ludicrous, if not laughable to the extreme.
trainspotter was decent enough to fess up, but my suspicion is that others here are incapable of acknowledging they have been backing a duplicitous egocentric loser, and been sold a pup.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 July 2009)

rederob said:


> Unsubstantiated claims may as well be lies.
> There are some here that are very gullible, have woeful comprehension skills, and make statements that are little short of ludicrous, if not laughable to the extreme.
> trainspotter was decent enough to fess up, but my suspicion is that others here are incapable of acknowledging they have been backing a duplicitous egocentric loser, and been sold a pup.




Thats a bit obtuse for me red, can you expand.

gg


----------



## Calliope (3 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thats a bit obtuse for me red, can you expand.
> 
> gg




For God's sake don't ask this clown to expand. He is so full of hot air that if he expands any more he will explode.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 July 2009)

Calliope said:


> For God's sake don't ask this clown to expand. He is so full of hot air that if he expands any more he will explode.




No mate,

I'd still ask him to expand,

I find that folk with huge difference also have more in common than they have with the common woman or man.

I'd like to hear his comments and reasoning.

See the crusties and greenies thread for the last time I met RJH.

gg


----------



## trainspotter (3 July 2009)

For a split second there I was feeling the love in the room. Was also going to suggest we all hold hands and sing Kum Bah Ya !!!  DOH !

Now .. down to the nitty gritty. Not wanting to sift through the previous posts in this thread, but I have a vague recollection that the reason Rudd was mentioned at the same time as the 51 Club was that he is actually a member. Don't believe me? Or am I telling porkies again? 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25658551-5018473,00.html

For the full story. Now this is not my opinion or a Liberal rant. Reported in The Australian of all places !! Who would have thunk it? A journalist reporting the truth? Never !!

I like that rederob has availed himself to report his side of the saga and we are the better for his input on the subject matter at hand. I also like that he has managed to categorise his beloved Labor leader in such a glowing phrase of "duplicitous egocentric loser". Magnificent prose of the first kind!

What you get when you see and hear Malcolm Turnbull is exactly that. Malcolm Turnbull. Turnbull graduated from Sydney University with a double degree in law and arts. He then studied law at Brasenose College, a constituent college of the University of Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar from 1978 to 1980. He studied for a Bachelor of Civil Law degree while at Oxford and then returned to Australia. In 1987, he established an investment banking firm, Whitlam Turnbull & Co Ltd in partnership with Neville Wran (former Labor Premier of New South Wales) and the former State Bank of NSW chief executive, Nicholas Whitlam (son of Gough Whitlam, former Labor Prime Minister of Australia). A Merchant Banker and a LAWYER AND he was in business with Laborites. MEIN GOTT! He chose to leave this career path and enter politics. Apparently he is worth 133 million dollars. Not too shabby. No unions or help. Self made. 

Mr Rudd on the other hand joined the Labor party at 15 in 1972. Prior to entering Parliament in 1998, Mr Rudd worked as a diplomat, as a senior official in the Queensland Government. Mr Rudd gained his Bachelor of Arts (Asian Studies) degree with First Class Honours in 1981 from the Australian National University in Canberra. He served in the Australian embassy in Stockholm as Third Secretary and later in the embassy in Beijing as First Secretary. In 1988 Mr Rudd returned to Queensland to work as Chief of Staff to the Hon Wayne Goss, the Queensland Opposition Leader. Mr Rudd served in the Goss Government first as Chief of Staff to the Premier and later driving the Government’s reform program as Director General of the Cabinet Office, the central policy agency of the Queensland Government. So NO experience outside of government. ZERO experience in business. Never had one. His wife on the other hand is said to be worth ninety million dollars. How did she make all this money? Why, by having an employment agency that was helped set up by the Howard Government Job Network Programme.

So when the Pm says "Fair suck of the sauce bottle, mate" three times in an interview. Exactly what is he referring to?

By the way, what were those people from Club 51 doing in the "NO ACCESS" areas of parliament. Why was Kevin Rudd photographed with them? Why did they claim to have links to the "corridors of power"? It is just mind numbing to theorise as to how people cannot see the wood for the trees.


----------



## trainspotter (3 July 2009)

But wait there is more.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25725994-5018473,00.html

This is what I am talking about. The spin that extrudes from his mouth and the way that people like rederob fervently believe and hang off every word is similar to an Amway meeting or a christian revival group. I think Kevin Rudd should change his name to the Pied Piper. This way when he blows his flute only the children have to suffer and leaving the ADULTS to get on with running this country.


----------



## rederob (3 July 2009)

So many weeks later we still have a lost tribe following a conniving, vainglorious leader who refuses the sad truth that he was done like a dog's dinner.
Cocooned in his own web of deceit, he fails to land a blow on Rudd, and whimpers on to Swan in a pathetic attempt at redemption.
Serving the interests of the rich, and out of touch with the commoner, Turnbull is now trying to pull together what Party support he can in order to remain the Opposition Leader.  Internal polling is showing that his Lathamesque qualities are going to be difficult to defend, while his gross error of judgement in Parliament's last weeks condemn him to ongoing ridicule on the floor of the House.
Not even a vat of Brasso can brighten Turnbull's tarnished image.  He is in for the chop.... he's a dead man walking.... he's a liability....he's a goner!
Rudd never misled Parliament.
Bruno cannot be wrong!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 July 2009)

rederob said:


> So many weeks later we still have a lost tribe following a conniving, vainglorious leader who refuses the sad truth that he was done like a dog's dinner.
> Cocooned in his own web of deceit, he fails to land a blow on Rudd, and whimpers on to Swan in a pathetic attempt at redemption.
> Serving the interests of the rich, and out of touch with the commoner, Turnbull is now trying to pull together what Party support he can in order to remain the Opposition Leader.  Internal polling is showing that his Lathamesque qualities are going to be difficult to defend, while his gross error of judgement in Parliament's last weeks condemn him to ongoing ridicule on the floor of the House.
> Not even a vat of Brasso can brighten Turnbull's tarnished image.  He is in for the chop.... he's a dead man walking.... he's a liability....he's a goner!
> ...




Red I don't normally agree with you, but you are on the button mate.

gg


----------



## trainspotter (3 July 2009)

"Houston, we have a problem, rederob has scored a direct hit" 

True, Mr Turnbull has not exactly ingratiated himself with the press on this matter who have rightly or wrongly decided that Rudd is the victor in this underhanded, cloak and dagger escapade that evidenced that the corridors of power are run by an elite group of Brisbane socialites. Or should that be socialists? What does a Prime Minister cost these days? Ohhhhh ... about an $8,000 Hilux ute would be my guess.

Interesting to note that the term "Lathamesque" was used in the retort. He certainly was the champion for the people. Rudd may have got off lightly thus far but the honeymoon will be over and like all good marriages the best part is to play the wedding video backwards. This way you can watch your wife take off the wedding ring, walk backwards out of the church and get in the car and just FERK OFF.

We, the Australian people will soon tire of his smarmy, chameleon like charade and vote him and his corrupt, back slapping, bed wetting, nancy boys brigade clean out of office.

Winners gets the spoils. Losers face the music. I can hear the band striking up for Malcolm as we type.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (4 July 2009)

*Re: Where's the judicial inquiry?*

Where is the judicial inquiry? Malcolm Turnbull called for it. Devoid of propaganda surely it would root out who is telling the truth.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> "Houston, we have a problem, rederob has scored a direct hit"
> 
> True, Mr Turnbull has not exactly ingratiated himself with the press on this matter who have rightly or wrongly decided that Rudd is the victor in this underhanded, cloak and dagger escapade that evidenced that the corridors of power are run by an elite group of Brisbane socialites. Or should that be socialists? What does a Prime Minister cost these days? Ohhhhh ... about an $8,000 Hilux ute would be my guess.
> 
> ...




At this moment in time rederob in my opinion is correct and I would be interested in any arguments which would change my mind on this.

gg


----------



## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> At this moment in time rederob in my opinion is correct and I would be interested in any arguments which would change my mind on this.
> 
> gg




Ummmm ... what part are you agreeing with rederob? That Malcolm Turnbull will be replaced as LOTO or that Kevin Rudd has been caught with his hand inthe lollie jar and rederob's argument is so thin it only has one side?


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Ummmm ... what part are you agreeing with rederob? That Malcolm Turnbull will be replaced as LOTO or that Kevin Rudd has been caught with his hand inthe lollie jar and rederob's argument is so thin it only has one side?




Turnbull has duffed the attack and the defence. Going against a pm without evidence is a losers strategy. He also didn't give the biff to his backbenchers to shut up while he went for the jugular. He didn't control his party. So Rudd gets off. Plus he didn't go for the real target who could have been taken out a week ago, Swan, who with guile and skill could have been skewered.Swan is made of less stern stuff than the old Ruddmeister. I've no idea what the opposition will do. Costello or Abbott would be my preferred leaders.

gg


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## Macquack (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> We, the Australian people will soon tire of his smarmy, chameleon like charade and vote him and his *corrupt, back slapping, bed wetting, nancy boys brigade *clean out of office.




Trainspotter, Burns would be proud of you.

Now go do some real train spotting and report back when you *actually* see a train rather than when you hear some obscure noise in the distance.


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> At this moment in time rederob in my opinion is correct and I would be interested in any arguments which would change my mind on this.
> 
> gg




When a chameleon changes colour it does so it in its own interests. It's not interested in argument.

Rederob on the other hand will never change colour. His ideology is set in concrete. Still, I enjoy having him around. He is Rudd's court jester. The irony is that he doesn't know that he is being funny.

And his antics help make my day. I get a kick out of taking the wind out of pompous, sanctimonious bores. 

Rederob's hatred of the Opposition is obvious. I am sure that he wishes his Party could avenge themselves on the Opposition in the same manner as does that other hero of his...Mahmoud Ahmadinejab.


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## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

GG, has the press got to you as well? How the situation was handled by the Libs was massively below par on a performance scale. No question about this. Does this mean they were wrong in their attempt to political point score or just "smile and wave boys, just smile and wave" as the stagecoach was being held up? The evidence is right there for all to see. Rudd repeatedly stated that he NOR his department had made representations on Grant's behalf. Swan admitted in June that his department (Treasury) had made representations to assist Mr Grant "But I did not know the outcome". The end game is that Labor has got off with a !% increase in their preferred party status and the Libs will be left wandering aimlessly in the political wilderness searching for a backbone. Not Costello surely ! (See other thread for info)

Now Macquack ... YES, when I grow up I want to be just like Mr Burns. Inciteful dialogue and acerbic wit without attacking the ASFer is a style that I admire. Attack the perpetrators of the crime and not the opinionator.


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## MrBurns (4 July 2009)

Macquack said:


> Trainspotter, Burns would be proud of you.
> 
> Now go do some real train spotting and report back when you *actually* see a train rather than when you hear some obscure noise in the distance.




Yes well I do agree with Trainspotter but non of this argument matters a toss really, what really matters is that Rudds Labor Govt is harming Australians badly and there's nothing we can do about it.
Turnbull is a smart man obviously but doesn't seem to have enough mongrel in him to take on Rudd and expose him for what he is.

The Libs need someone in there who can bring this tosser into line and roll him at the next election. 
What further harm he will do to all of us between now and then I hate to imagine.
The recession hasn't hit us properly yet but wait till China pull their horns in then it will be every man for himself and the first causalities will be the suckered in FHB.


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## Julia (4 July 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Where is the judicial inquiry? Malcolm Turnbull called for it. Devoid of propaganda surely it would root out who is telling the truth.



Snake, the Auditor-General is due to report at the end of July.
I have no idea why it should take so long.


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

Calliope said:


> When a chameleon changes colour it does so it in its own interests. It's not interested in argument.
> 
> Rederob on the other hand will never change colour. His ideology is set in concrete. Still, I enjoy having him around. He is Rudd's court jester. The irony is that he doesn't know that he is being funny.
> 
> ...






trainspotter said:


> GG, has the press got to you as well? How the situation was handled by the Libs was massively below par on a performance scale. No question about this. Does this mean they were wrong in their attempt to political point score or just "smile and wave boys, just smile and wave" as the stagecoach was being held up? The evidence is right there for all to see. Rudd repeatedly stated that he NOR his department had made representations on Grant's behalf. Swan admitted in June that his department (Treasury) had made representations to assist Mr Grant "But I did not know the outcome". The end game is that Labor has got off with a !% increase in their preferred party status and the Libs will be left wandering aimlessly in the political wilderness searching for a backbone. Not Costello surely ! (See other thread for info)
> 
> Now Macquack ... YES, when I grow up I want to be just like Mr Burns. Inciteful dialogue and acerbic wit without attacking the ASFer is a style that I admire. Attack the perpetrators of the crime and not the opinionator.






MrBurns said:


> Yes well I do agree with Trainspotter but non of this argument matters a toss really, what really matters is that Rudds Labor Govt is harming Australians badly and there's nothing we can do about it.
> Turnbull is a smart man obviously but doesn't seem to have enough mongrel in him to take on Rudd and expose him for what he is.
> 
> The Libs need someone in there who can bring this tosser into line and roll him at the next election.
> ...




Read your Machiavelli comrades.

This has nothing to do with truth.

Its all about POWER.

You are arguing about the sky when the cyclone is ripping your roof off.

POWER

MACHIAVELLI.

gg


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Read your Machiavelli comrades.
> 
> This has nothing to do with truth.
> 
> ...




Of course it's about power, we all know that. Rudd has the power, and he is also a nasty piece of work. Not unlike Mahmoud.


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

Calliope said:


> Of course it's about power, we all know that. Rudd has the power, and he is also a nasty piece of work. Not unlike Mahmoud.




I have a few mates who worked with Rudd in Goss' government and he is one mean sob. 

He was called Dr.Death not because he cut budgets, but rather because he was a cold calculating bastard who nobody could develop a rapport with.

On speaking to some of my backbench Labor mates, this pattern is continuing.

Forget about the Liberals.

The ALP Caucus is **** scared of the Ruddmeister.

gg


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## rederob (4 July 2009)

*Re: Where's the judicial inquiry?*



It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Where is the judicial inquiry? Malcolm Turnbull called for it. Devoid of propaganda surely it would root out who is telling the truth.



The trolley boy is pushing another empty thought into a parked ute.
Devoid of substance he echoes his leader's now forlorn pleas for some justice: A judicial inquiry no less.  
But into what?
Turnbull reeled off a list of issues as long as his windedness would allow.  He was on a pure and simple fishing fishing trip.  Baited with empty words and a burley attitude he cast his desires into the House time and again and managed only to foul his line before badly hooking himself.
Meanwhile Labor, in the Senate, realising Turnbull was bleeding, called for an inquiry into the mischievous hook. 
What happened?
Well, you might think that Turnbull's aides might have wanted to get to the truth.  But they knew the hook had been poisoned, and any injury would lead to subsequent complications.  Whose hook was it?  Who knew that it could land the tosser more heavily than the tossed?
They are all good questions.
But the Senate sided against an inquiry.
In that context, a move for a judicial inquiry looks superfluous, if not just plain silly.

But none of the above would cut to the truth of utegate. 
That truth lies in the motivation of the perpetrator of the original email *and* the exceptionally well calculated estimation of Turnbull's character.

There are many ways to look more deeply at this point, but brevity is of the essence.

If we use "motive" as the driving force for utegate, then Labor will not have had a hand in the email.  Hockey will be Turnbull's successor and Rudd fears him more than Turnbull.

If the Opposition was truly interested in finding the "source", they would have done so by now.  My suspicion is they know, and they are not telling.  Their objective is to win the next election.  And as smooth and sartorial as Turnbull may be, he doesn't cut the numbers where they count.  The Libs know an election with Turnbull as leader is, at best, a 49:51 bet, with Labor returned.

Presently the key reason that Opposition is failing is their inability to fight to their strength - economic management.  With Costello out of the picture there is nobody capable of plucking the ugly duckling who has been allowed to turn into a Swan.  And even if there was, Labor would replace him with Tanner.  

Opposition strategists know that Hockey is what they need.  Some very clever people within have toasted Turnbull's reign with a poison chalice.  And true to form, he didn't sip, he swallowed - hook line and sinker.


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## rederob (4 July 2009)

Julia said:


> I have no idea why it should take so long.



Your statement of the obvious is pure joy.


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

*Re: Where's the judicial inquiry?*



rederob said:


> The trolley boy is pushing another empty thought into a parked ute.
> Devoid of substance he echoes his leader's now forlorn pleas for some justice: A judicial inquiry no less.
> But into what?
> Turnbull reeled off a list of issues as long as his windedness would allow.  He was on a pure and simple fishing fishing trip.  Baited with empty words and a burley attitude he cast his desires into the House time and again and managed only to foul his line before badly hooking himself.
> ...





Agree mate.

But did you see that glorious moon last night on its way to full.

And the sound of the the sea with a southerly blowing.

And hear the laugh of a girl.

This is the small stuff, Rudd, Swan, Hockey. Abbott, Costello.

I believe you to be right on this issue.

gg


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## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

Sorry, will get back to you once the moon has reached it's zenith, the surf has stopped crashing and the wind has dropped and for my girl to stop laughing.

Small incident here that requires my attention. Will air my opinions on this matter once resolved. Normal transmission will continue.

By the way rederob, your attempts to enucleate the thread followers is working. You have managed to peck the eyes clean out of their skulls so they cannot see truth. On this matter I will request Fred Hollows to assist me to restore their sight and once again we will sabre rattle (read bang away at a keyboard) long into the night.


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Forget about the Liberals.
> 
> The ALP Caucus is **** scared of the Ruddmeister.
> 
> gg




The only one who is not scared of Rudd is Swan. If he told the truth he could destroy Rudd. With Tanner waiting in the wings, Rudd will have to devise a way to get rid of Swan, but still keep him quiet. 

Tanner is getting anxious. He was critical of Turnbull for going for the big fish when he had Swan dead to rights for lying to parliament.

And by the way, don't think you appease Rederob by agreeing with him. He will despise you as being weak. You will notice he ignores people like  Macquack.


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Sorry, will get back to you once the moon has reached it's zenith, the surf has stopped crashing and the wind has dropped and for my girl to stop laughing.
> 
> Small incident here that requires my attention. Will air my opinions on this matter once resolved. Normal transmission will continue.
> 
> By the way rederob, your attempts to enucleate the thread followers is working. You have managed to peck the eyes clean out of their skulls so they cannot see truth. On this matter I will request Fred Hollows to assist me to restore their sight and once again we will sabre rattle (read bang away at a keyboard) long into the night.




Agree mate,

I've had many a conversation with rederob., and it never comes to conclusion, perhaps we should shout him a root, on a rising moon, with a rising breeze of a warm night with a girl who can sing all of Eyna's best all at once.

gg


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## kincella (4 July 2009)

maybe PC needs to employ similar tactics............
my little maltese dog has a cunning ploy......when given a new toy...spends hours pulling the eyes out of her new fluffy toy......(hmmm hint for PC)
I believe its so they cannot see what nasty things she is about to do to them.....(another hint for PC)
like practising the severe head jerk, or throwing them with a full body jerk ....which would break a small animals neck, or back....if she ever got hold of a small animal...or carrying them in her mouth and racing at break neck speeds around the house..

so far I am looking at paying about $650 for an eye operation for her...she damaged her third eyelid, when attempting to kill the Duck, hit her head against the table leg....


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## rederob (4 July 2009)

*Shoot the messenger....*
Steve Lewis' article in today's Courier Mail has ever so kindly pointed to Labor campers that they were too slow to spin the web that has cocooned Turnbull.
Lewis was asked - or "challenged" as he prefers - to hand over the fake email by Harris, from Rudd's Office, several hours before the papers cranked themselves into their invidious blunder.
Although the Labor team had made clear there was no evidence that suggested Parliament was misled, Turnbull's media mates decided that Grech's possible "false" recollection was worth running strongly on.
Harris knew full well that the story deadline was just hours away, and is likely to have suggested to Lewis that it was not wise to run with: On this point Lewis does not elaborate other than to say the conversation was "civil".

It beggars belief that Lewis did not have this email (or a copy) many days earlier, and had an opportunity to test its veracity.  We know this because for two weeks the media at Parliament House seemed to know that Turnbull was onto something; and it would be unusual if a confidential "leak" was *not *made. 

Lewis was not only foolish to rely so heavily on something he could not authenticate, he was "played".  

Charlton was onto Turnbull's antics immediately he lit up to clear his thoughts after Turnbull's fatherly advice to him about telling the truth, on the night of the Ball.  For the next two days Charlton went over all paper and electronic trails relating to the matters that Turnbull had sought in great detail be revealed through a judicial inquiry.

Once Grech had given his testimony all Charlton's team had to do was a keyword search of what they had previously amassed, to determine the chance their advice to Rudd may have been flawed.  If Lewis had handed over the email around 5pm, Rudd may have come out prior to the publishing deadlines with his statement - delivered at 7.30pm - that the email was unequivocally false.

Lewis had a loaded gun, didn't check his ammo, had a chance stay his execution, but pulled the trigger anyway.  And after suffering great injury from the backfire, he has today chosen to again try and shoot the messenger.  Little wonder we have little respect for journalists in Australia.


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

rederob said:


> Little wonder we have little respect for journalists in Australia.




By "we" I assume you mean the Labor Party, and by  "journalists" I assume you mean News Limited journalists. It is significant that Rudd and Gillard are trying to start a witch hunt (they call it a debate) into the "ethics" of News Limited papers in their reporting of Rudd's and Swan's utegate special deals.


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25728292-13360,00.html

Courier-Mail editorial taday;



> One problem with Mr Rudd's protests of innocence before the facts were out is that his media office has a reputation for slippery weasel words and outright falsehoods. At least twice, Mr Rudd's media staff have told journalists that certain things were not true when they were accurate. When this newspaper questioned Mr Rudd's office about alleged abuse of an RAAF stewardess by the Prime Minister, we were told it never happened. It was later revealed it did and Mr Rudd apologised. Before the 2007 election, it was claimed Mr Rudd and his office were complicit in staging a pretend Anzac dawn service for a breakfast TV program. Mr Rudd's office denied the claim and demanded retractions and apologies from one of our sister News Limited newspapers. Mr Rudd's denials were soon proven to be hollow – this time through legitimate emails. No wonder journalists take what Mr Rudd's office says with a shaker of salt.
> 
> We stand by our reporting of these matters. Does Mr Rudd stand by all of the statements from his spokesman over the past.




In other words, how can you trust a serial liar or his chief spin doctor Lachlan Harris. They also lied about the hair dryer hissy fit, and his smart alec comment after the George Bush phone call. Who can doubt that they lied about utegate?


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

As I've said before all Politicians lie.

Its a given.

If they say a new runway will not open you can bet it will.

If they say a new dam will open you can be sure it won't.

You posters need to geta strategic view of politicians.

You are a boring set of losers reacting to events.

gg


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## kincella (4 July 2009)

the way I see it....the journalists have all been sucking up to rudd,...thats the only way he got in....goo gaahing over him....sticking up for him no matter what...
only recently there has been some noise from the Australian...looking for the truth....buts its too mild for me....any journalist I read before have since lost any respect for anything they say....
then we hear that the media police in rudds office tells them what to say...
Murdoch was a rudd supporter...
only Andrew Bolt has had the gutz to say anything or query rudd and team for the past year...again its a mild shot
and the people I talk to...no way is there a 65% vote for the rotten weasel ear pooh eating phoney...how disgusting is that, and in parliament for everyone to see....


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## kincella (4 July 2009)

exactly which posters are you referring to ??

"You posters need to geta strategic view of politicians.

You are a boring set of losers reacting to events."

A= its probably 50/50 on here...those that dislike and distrust the krudd team, and know what they are up to....versus those who believe the phoney krudd


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

kincella said:


> the way I see it....the journalists have all been sucking up to rudd,...thats the only way he got in....goo gaahing over him....sticking up for him no matter what...
> only recently there has been some noise from the Australian...looking for the truth....buts its too mild for me....any journalist I read before have since lost any respect for anything they say....
> then we hear that the media police in rudds office tells them what to say...
> Murdoch was a rudd supporter...
> ...




Agree he's a sad puppy, with huge issues.

But he's in

Go with it for godsake.

gg


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## kincella (4 July 2009)

no way...not a liar, cheat, for the most important job in australia.....
he did not deserve this role...and he has proved how deceitful he is...

you go with him as much as you like............

I have nothing but contempt for the mongrel

I have nothing but respect for Peter Costello


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

Yes, pretending to be the genial, fun loving, one of the boys, cuddly Rudd.


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

kincella said:


> no way...not a liar, cheat, for the most important job in australia.....
> he did not deserve this role...and he has proved how deceitful he is...
> 
> you go with him as much as you like............
> ...




Keep up the good work, kinsella. GG's attitude is strange. He knows Rudd is a nasty piece of work, but appears happy with the status quo.


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## kincella (4 July 2009)

Calliope....like a leopard never changes its spots neither do I, nor will that team of weasels....
now we have an interesting ploy....
GG has been ordered to meet Pc for some big news....but GG is a rudd fan....
maybe gg is in reality....the real ugly old has been...about to be dragged through court  (I hope) govenor general.........in disguise....
what a lying old bitch that one is....another nasty piece of work.....
in retrospect Latham is looking good compared to this mob of inept lying morons.........


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## Macquack (4 July 2009)

Calliope said:


> Keep up the good work, kinsella. *GG's attitude is strange*. He knows Rudd is a nasty piece of work, but appears happy with the status quo.




Unless your planning a revolution, may I also remind you, *Labor is in Government.*


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## kincella (4 July 2009)

yes and it only got there by deceiving the people...a wrong does not make it right....
we will get rid of them just as soon as we can


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## Macquack (4 July 2009)

kincella said:


> yes and it only got there by deceiving the people...*a wrong does not make it right*....
> we will get rid of them just as soon as we can




Kincella, have you conceded that Rudd did not misled parliament, and that "utegate" was just a "beat-up".


----------



## Calliope (4 July 2009)

kincella said:


> yes and it only got there by deceiving the people...a wrong does not make it right....
> we will get rid of them just as soon as we can




A letter in TheWeekend Australian said;



> There is one underlying and on going reason for the tragic state of the Aboriginal  and Torres Strait Islander people. The vast majority of Australians just don't give a stuff




Rudd knows this. So why do anything about it? After all he has said "sorry". What more do they want? 

In the same way the vast majority don't give a stuff about Rudd's dirty tricks and spin about jobs creation and Utegate...providing he keeps giving them handouts with borrowed money.


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## kincella (4 July 2009)

about the indigenous plight...as Andrew Bolt said it today...its up to the indigenous ones.... the leaders to start doing the right thing...we can throw all the money at them...they will trash the houses and live outside just the same..nothing will change until they change their attitudes

and I believe rudd and team lied in parliament....the published emails prove it...he is probably hoping he does not have to front up again in August and face further scrutiny about utegate....and grant....and there will be other claims against them..

there should be no more handouts...we cannot afford it.....so the ferals and bogans will have to find something else to lean on


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## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

I'm BACK ... what I miss? Oh yeah .. this little gem from Garpal Gumnut _"You are a boring set of losers reacting to events"._ Is this the same Garpal or is it another faker? Fair shake of the sauce bottle mate.

I for one, choose which hounds I run with and I choose NOT to be misled by somebody I did not vote for NOR will I change my point of view on this thread. We need healthy debate on such matters because this is what we as free thinking idiosyncratic voters require for the system to work.

Of course Herr Rudd and commandant Swan have misled the parliament. Does the press think so? Nup. Does the card carrying commies think so? Nup. Does the general population of Banana Republic Land think so? Nup. Does the entrepreneurial blue boods think so? Bloody oath mate. Up to his armpits in it.

_"Evil prospers when good men do nothing"_ Edmund Burke

Are we not allowed to voice our opinions and presumptions in a civil like manner. Of course we are ! To suggest we should just go along with it because there is nothing we can do is defeatist to say the least. That is why they are the OPPOSITION. To roll over and whimper at the feet of our masters because they are more adept at the "spin" due to their experience in such matters. NEVER.

I can hear it now coming over the loud speakers in the concentration camp "There will be no laughing in the gas chambers !"


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## Calliope (4 July 2009)

kincella said:


> .
> what a lying old bitch that one is....another nasty piece of work.....




You got that right about Quentin Bryce. She is another one of Rudd's dirty tricks. Bryce was a great mate of Rudd's wife when she was governor of Qld. He gave her the job of GG so that he would have a lackey in Government House. It is also handy for Bill Shorten who is having it off with the married daughter Chloe Bryce. Shorten left his wife for Chloe.

Bryce has been a good servant of the Party. It is no accident that Rudd has put the Republican issue on hold.


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## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

Woweeee ... someone out there really has the irrits for Kevin!

http://kevinruddlies.com/lies/ruddlies.htm

 Some BEAUTIES in there as well !


----------



## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkXh687ooPw

Kevin Rudd in his ute throwing dirt all over the Libs.


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## Macquack (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Of course *Herr Rudd and commandant Swan *have misled the parliament. Does the press think so? Nup. Does the card carrying commies think so? Nup. Does the general population of Banana Republic Land think so? Nup. Does the entrepreneurial blue boods think so? Bloody oath mate. Up to his armpits in it.
> 
> _"Evil prospers when good men do nothing"_ Edmund Burke
> 
> ...




Getting a bit carried away there, Trainspotter..

Your inference to Rudd being like Adolf Hitler and the Australian people being symbolic of jews in the Holocaust is not funny, and could be considered offensive.


----------



## MACCA350 (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Woweeee ... someone out there really has the irrits for Kevin!
> 
> http://kevinruddlies.com/lies/ruddlies.htm
> 
> Some BEAUTIES in there as well !



*21. Rudd lies about his "Digital Revolution" *

At the ALP campaign launch for the 2007 Federal Election, Kevin Rudd announced a plan to provide computers for every child in years 9-12: "I want to turn every secondary school in Australia into a digital school."

A 15-page policy document labelled A Digital Education Revolution said: "A Rudd Labor Government will revolutionise classroom education by putting a computer on the desk of every upper secondary student...Students will have their own computer and access to the school's extranet and classroom content – both from their desktop and remotely. Schools will be able to apply for grants of up to $1 million...this could include personal laptops."

*The Truth*
- Courier Mail, February 21, 2008.
	"Well, we are leaving it to the school how they do it , we are not mandating that every desk have a computer on it but we are saying the aim of the program is to make sure every student has access to a computer"

- Julia Gillard, Interview with Mike Carlton, 2UE, February 20, 2008.

By the way, all students in years 9-12 *already* have "access to a computer"!

That really gets up my goat........Lying little @#$%

Some of those points really show what a pathetic excuse for a man he is.


And as for point 22.........disgusting

cheers


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## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

Alton the cartoonist for The West Australian regularly draws Rudd and Swan as the controllers of the camp. The "No laughing in the gas chambers" comes from the Goon show.

It was not meant to be offensive. You would know if I wanted to be offensive. Trust me on this.


----------



## Calliope (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Woweeee ... someone out there really has the irrits for Kevin!
> 
> http://kevinruddlies.com/lies/ruddlies.htm
> 
> Some BEAUTIES in there as well !




It is no wonder that Rederob has never responded to my taunts that his hero is a serial liar. That would undermine all his assertions that Rudd didn't lie to Parliament. Rudd is a psychopathic liar. And those whose jobs he controls lie on his behalf.


----------



## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

SO ... back to the thread of this discussion. 

Do I think that parliament was misled. YES. Does rederob and his kind think that Rudd and Swan has reciprocated. YES. 

It is a difference of opinion. And in this case a difference of idealogy. Should I roll over and accept this unpalatable situation. NO. Rederob and Macquack and so on and so forth have put their best foot forward. And so have I as well as Calliope and Kincella et al. This is salubrious in it's endeavours to see/feel/hear the whole matrix of the nature of the conundrum. 

On the face of written emails and Parliament Senate Comittees dragging out the truth is another matter entirely. I accept that the whole thing in the scheme of things is a furphy to say the least. Amazing how we focus on the trivial and forget the BIG PICTURE. What 200 billion dollar debt? Let's focus on a 1996 $8,000 Mazda ute instead.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> SO ... back to the thread of this discussion.
> 
> Do I think that parliament was misled. YES. Does rederob and his kind think that Rudd and Swan has reciprocated. YES.
> 
> ...




As I've said before mate they all lie.

When I make macro investment decisions I look for what the pollies are saying.

I assume they mean the opposite and factor that in to my investment model.

e.g. The Ruddmeister says we are on the cusp of the greatest relationship with China re our Iron ore.

This is a signal to sell Iron ore stocks,

Easy.

gg


----------



## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

So when I purchased FMG at $2.90 and it peaked at $4.29 within a few weeks I am supposedly being lied to by the pollies? GOSH ! Remind me not to ask what and when to buy.

But I digress, we both agree that ALL pollies lie. It goes with the territory. Greater a wordsmith who have not turned their leaning to politics I have not known. (Shakespeare don't count) It goes with the job, symbiotic in nature and as much as the little aussie battler can stomach. Until the next election. Bring it on !!


----------



## Julia (4 July 2009)

kincella said:


> Calliope....like a leopard never changes its spots neither do I, nor will that team of weasels....
> now we have an interesting ploy....
> GG has been ordered to meet Pc for some big news....but GG is a rudd fan....
> maybe gg is in reality....the real ugly old has been...about to be dragged through court  (I hope) govenor general.........in disguise....
> ...



You have a point here.  Much as I loathed Latham, I don't think he was particularly duplicitous.


----------



## trainspotter (4 July 2009)

I particularly liked Mark Latham. I like the part when he imploded in his own narcissistic and paranoid personality. When he met Howard in the corridor of 2GB and proceeded to rip the handshake of little John. Exceptional stuff.

"The core features of that style are a distinctive political brilliance and drive that is accompanied by paranoia and destructive tendencies ”” anger, rage, envy and resentment ”” which suggest an inner dynamic involving overweening ambition defending against (that is, compensating for) low self-esteem." Who wrote this? His former Chief of Staff, Mike Richards.

Won't be long rederob, before Mr Rudd has the same brain snap. Just ask the hostie on the RAAF flight after his "special" meal went missing.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> I particularly liked Mark Latham. I like the part when he imploded in his own narcissistic and paranoid personality. When he met Howard in the corridor of 2GB and proceeded to rip the handshake of little John. Exceptional stuff.
> 
> "The core features of that style are a distinctive political brilliance and drive that is accompanied by paranoia and destructive tendencies ”” anger, rage, envy and resentment ”” which suggest an inner dynamic involving overweening ambition defending against (that is, compensating for) low self-esteem." Who wrote this? His former Chief of Staff, Mike Richards.
> 
> Won't be long rederob, before Mr Rudd has the same brain snap. Just ask the hostie on the RAAF flight after his "special" meal went missing.




Agree trainspotter.

He is one angry godbotherer walking.

And we know what happens to them.

Good point.

gg


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## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Is this what Rudd meant when he said "Fair shake of the sauce bottle mate?" Take a good look ... no sauce in sight !


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## Garpal Gumnut (5 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Is this what Rudd meant when he said "Fair shake of the sauce bottle mate?" Take a good look ... no sauce in sight !




Ah but look at that ear wax waiting to be licked upon an index finger.

The poy is a distraction. He's thinking of later delights.

gg


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## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Ear wax for dessert ! YUMMY !!


----------



## kincella (5 July 2009)

so Garpul Gumnut.....what happened to the meeting with Costello....????
why on earth would PC call you, you who resides in Townsville for a meeting in Melbourne....
I have not read enough of your posts to form an opinion about which party you prefer.......but I thought you may lean to labor...
so whats the connection.... ?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (5 July 2009)

kincella said:


> so Garpul Gumnut.....what happened to the meeting with Costello....????
> why on earth would PC call you, you who resides in Townsville for a meeting in Melbourne....
> I have not read enough of your posts to form an opinion about which party you prefer.......but I thought you may lean to labor...
> so whats the connection.... ?




Many are called mate, but few are chosen  Matthew 1.2.309 etc etc 

North Queensland is quite a force in Australian politics, more so than the basket weaving suburbs of Sydney .

e.g. The Labor Split in the fifties started in the AWU Hall in Mackay.

gg


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## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

GG ... answer Kincellas question or I will form the opinion that you are really telling the truth and you are what you claim to be. Female judge rootin', plane flying, friend of a drugged up world famous basoonist, right ear of PC, informant to the CIA and most of all the WORST claim to fame ... A SWINGING VOTER !!!!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (5 July 2009)

kincella said:


> so Garpul Gumnut.....what happened to the meeting with Costello....????
> why on earth would PC call you, you who resides in Townsville for a meeting in Melbourne....
> I have not read enough of your posts to form an opinion about which party you prefer.......but I thought you may lean to labor...
> so whats the connection.... ?






trainspotter said:


> GG ... answer Kincellas question or I will form the opinion that you are really telling the truth and you are what you claim to be. Female judge rootin', plane flying, friend of a drugged up world famous basoonist, right ear of PC, informant to the CIA and most of all the WORST claim to fame ... A SWINGING VOTER !!!!




Ok Ok,

I was invited to meet him recently in Israel of all bloody places, and I didn't want that stamp on my passport as I do a bit on the side for the big fat lazy bastards who run Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

Ok

gg


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Works for me.


----------



## Julia (5 July 2009)

There has been little commentary on the proposed takeover of the country's health system by the Federal government.

In an interview with a Brisbane radio station, the question was posed to Mr Rudd:  "You said you'd be looking at the possibility of taking over the responsibility for health from the states if they couldn't get their act together.  Where are you, where is your thinking on that now?"

Rudd:  "Well, let me answer it in three quick parts."

The answer was neither quick nor clear and indicated that the report on the health system had only recently been received.  Then he added:

"Now, we're going to take our time with this to work our way through it about what is the best system for the future.  But let me tell you I know there are problems, there are real problems.

We're determined to get this absolutely right.  But because it's so important to each of your listeners, we're going to be careful, methodical, work our way through it, talk to the states and territories about it through the course of the months ahead, and then reach our decision on what should be the shape for the system for the future".

Glen Milne suggests the translation would read as follows:

"The mid-2009 deadline has come and gone.  Despite our campaign promise there is no plan for a federal takeover.  And I was to be perfectly honest it was a promise I knew I couldn't keep and I shouldn't have made in the first place.  But I knew it would be an election winner.  So I did".


----------



## Calliope (5 July 2009)

Julia said:


> "The mid-2009 deadline has come and gone.  Despite our campaign promise there is no plan for a federal takeover.  And I was to be perfectly honest it was a promise I knew I couldn't keep and I shouldn't have made in the first place.  But I knew it would be an election winner.  So I did".




Ditto on "closing the gap" with Aboriginals
Ditto on  Fuel watch
Ditto on Grocery price watch
Ditto on Fiscal conservatism
Ditto on Raising education standards
Ditto on saving the Murray-Darling system
Ditto on saving the whales
Ditto on being trustworthy
etc etc etc


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Living up to his name KEVIN 747 ! Pfffffffffffftt !!!!

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd will have an audience with the Pope next week when he travels to Europe to take part in crucial talks on climate change.

Mr Rudd will leave on Monday for the six-day trip taking in meetings with leaders in Malaysia, Berlin, Zurich and Italy with a focus on the global recession and climate change.

After a meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Tuesday, he will stop briefly in Zurich to lobby world soccer body FIFA chief Sepp Blatter on Australia's bid to host the world cup in 2018 or 2020.

Later in the week, Mr Rudd will spend two days in Italy where he will meet Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi in Rome.

Mr Rudd will also visit the Vatican for an audience with Pope Benedict XVI where they are expected to discuss the potential canonisation of Josephite order founder, the Blessed Mary MacKillop.

He will travel to the earthquake-hit town of L'Aquila for a meeting of the 17-nation Major Economies Forum where leaders will discuss progress on a world agreement to reduce climate emissions ahead of the Copenhagen UN summit in December.

Where did Malcolm Turnbull go? Afghanistan

MALCOLM Turnbull has sought refuge from negative opinion polls and the OzCar affair in the politically safer territory of Afghanistan. Mr Turnbull flew out of Australia on Sunday night to visit Australian personnel in the strife-torn country. 

He was accompanied by his deputy, Julie Bishop, and the Coalition's defence spokesman, David Johnston. The Opposition Leader bivouacked in Kandahar on Monday night with members of Task Force 633 and then visited Tarin Kowt on Tuesday, sharing a meal with special forces and commandos engaged in hunting down the leaders of the Taliban insurgency. 

He also spoke with Afghan elders at a meeting of community leaders - a shura - in Tarin Kowt. Mr Turnbull told Australian Defence Force members in Afghanistan they have the support of all Australians. 

"All of us, no matter what side of politics, salute their service and their sacrifice," he said.


----------



## kincella (5 July 2009)

did he say he would not raise taxes too ???
alco pop tax done, ciggys looming fast, wow $20 a pack soon
predict some more tax from super, (they cannot wait to get their hands on your savings)
there will be other taxes raised to pay for this mega billion dollar deficit 
the states are broke...so expect tax increases there...again to pay for the 'inept bunglers brigade' systems

oh did you see the ones about one school with one child....140k's, another with 5 children another 140k's gift to be spent there....hello the freekin school should be shut down if there are less than 30-50 kids enrolled...and attending...


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## It's Snake Pliskin (5 July 2009)

There's a good piece by Alan Jones at 2gb on the issue and failed promises.


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## Garpal Gumnut (5 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Living up to his name KEVIN 747 ! Pfffffffffffftt !!!!
> 
> Prime Minister Kevin Rudd will have an audience with the Pope next week when he travels to Europe to take part in crucial talks on climate change.
> 
> Mr Rudd will leave on Monday for the six-day trip taking in meetings with leaders in Malaysia, Berlin, Zurich and Italy with a focus on the global recession and climate change.




Lets hope Little Kev07 doesn't end up on Berlusconi's knee wearing nothing but his sock suspenders, having his earwax poked by some sheila with no clothes on..

Last time he was away, he let loose in New York and committed a Sin.

gg


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 July 2009)

*Re: Where's the judicial inquiry?*

rederob,


> The trolley boy is pushing another empty thought into a parked ute.
> Devoid of substance he echoes his leader's now forlorn pleas for some justice: A judicial inquiry no less.



See the points below.



> Presently the key reason that Opposition is failing is their inability to fight to their strength - economic management.



Yes a good point.  



> Opposition strategists know that Hockey is what they need.



 No they don't need him as leader. Abbot is the man.


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## MACCA350 (5 July 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Last time he was away, he let loose in New York and committed a Sin.
> 
> gg



This time his sin would be booking the return ticket...........pack your bags Kevin and !@#$ OFF

cheers


----------



## Beej (5 July 2009)

*Re: Where's the judicial inquiry?*



It's Snake Pliskin said:


> No they don't need him as leader. Abbot is the man.




LOL! Mr "People Skills" Abbot!!! Yea go for it!

Beej


----------



## MACCA350 (5 July 2009)

kincella said:


> ciggys looming fast, wow $20 a pack soon



Yeah and he'll be praised for "doing even more to discourage smoking"...........what a crock, they're just looking at all the politically safe havens to recoup the stupid cash splash

cheers


----------



## kincella (5 July 2009)

think a lot of his working families also are smoking families...but they have copped the alco pop tax anyway....well the kids have...and they still love him 65%.....rubbish...ask the kids


----------



## rederob (5 July 2009)

Sorry
I didn't realise the thread was changed to 
*Dopey wingers that voted Liberal*

Please feel free to continue.
You clearly have lost the "misleading" argument and now prefer to find solace in discussing the western world's pre-eminent recession-busting strategist's capacity to lead you in a way that offers considerable joy.


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## MrBurns (5 July 2009)

Looks like the KRuddster, temporary leader of the good ship "Credit Card" is off the instruct the world on the GFC then he's giving an audience to the Pope, the only good to come out of this will be if the Pope rethinks the ban on birth control after suffering the destructive bull****ting little maggot.


----------



## Calliope (5 July 2009)

Poor old Rederob. He is quite miffed because he came off second best. He made the tactical mistake of basing his whole case on Rudd's veracity which is zero.
And now he feels quite left out.

And what's a "winger" Red, is it some sort of bird...or a footballer?


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Got to admit rederob you have hit the bullseye yet again. This thread was about Rudd misleading parliament. We had pretty much agreed to diasagree even though we both had valid points and "guilt" was never proved as the email, though fake, has not been attributed to an individual.

The facts are that Grant did receive "special" treatment from the Treasury Dept. Emails and paper trail has proven it. Senate Inquiry concluded nothing other than agreeing that Grant had been assisted by high ranking Treasury officials. 

Nothing could be attributed back to Rudd or Swan even though both men had stated in parliament that they had "no knowledge" or made "representations on behalf of an individual". Their story is credible but unlikely.

Like Clinton claimed "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." The definition of sexual relations was put under the microscope. Does receiving a blowjob compared to coital sex make a difference? 

SO ... if we want to go off topic and talk about ciggies and our dark skinned cousins being hard done by, let's put it into the "political thread" where we can have a red hot go at each others political leanings.

Thank you for pointing this out to the conjointed masses rederob.


----------



## rederob (5 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Nothing could be attributed back to Rudd or Swan even though both men had stated in parliament that they had "no knowledge" or made "representations on behalf of an individual". Their story is credible but unlikely.



My understanding is that Swan has never denied knowledge of or representation to assist Grant.


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## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Anyone else want to have a go? The tips of my fingers have worn off the letters of my keyboard on this subject.

Should have been _"No knowledge of the outcome"_ attributed to Swan EVEN though his home fax was bombarded with info and the head of Treasury was kept in the email loop. Swan must have been asleep not to have known. He was helping his immediate superior (Kevin Rudd) mate to get finance for his car dealership.


----------



## Macquack (5 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Looks like the KRuddster, temporary leader of the good ship "Credit Card" is off the instruct the world on the GFC then he's giving an audience to the Pope, the only good to come out of this will be if the Pope rethinks the ban on birth control after suffering the *destructive bull****ting little maggot*.




Burns, back to your ever so boring and repetitive insults. 

You should be pleased he will be out of the country. So save your pitiful abuse for when he comes back. 

Come to think of it, when Rudd returns why dont you leave the country.


----------



## MrBurns (5 July 2009)

It's all yours trainspotter, don't really care if he was caught this time or not, fairly soon everyone will start hating his guts and that will be the end of him
The only thing holding him up at present is the failure of the Libs to attack.


----------



## MrBurns (5 July 2009)

Macquack said:


> Burns, back to your ever so boring and repetitive insults.
> You should be pleased he will be out of the country. So save your pitiful abuse for when he comes back.
> Come to think of it, when Rudd returns why dont you leave the country.




You'll be pleased to know my opinion of you is much the same as your hero, I think you share the same attributes.

As a matter of fact I'll be off the Hawaii next month, I'm going to change my accent and pretend to be from New Zealand, I'd be horribly embarrassed if anyone had seen Rudd bull****ting on the world stage.


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

*Kum Bah Ya My Lord, Kum Bah Ya ! *

Now lets all hold hands and feel the warmth of the fire we have created. 

Macquack, not a bad idea about leaving the country, what with the 200 billion debt and all. The good ship "Credit Card" will be firmly on the rocks loooooonhg after your beloved leader has used his gold travel card for the millionth time at our expense. Wait a minute .. he's doing a damn good job RIGHT FERKING NOW !!!!!!!

Mr Burns ... I look forward to seeing your suntan from lounging around the "Infinity pool" at the Four Seasons Resort Lanai on Big Island. Put a jug of Majhito's on my account. Enjoy. Don't forget the FUSH AND CHUPS !


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## Macquack (5 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> *As a matter of fact I'll be off the Hawaii next month*.




Watch out that you dont take a massive wipe-out at Pipeline and are never seen or heard of again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK055Ct0rUE


----------



## rederob (5 July 2009)

Calliope said:


> And what's a "winger" Red, is it some sort of bird...or a footballer?



It's someone - much like yourself - that has no substance to an argument, so "wings" it, in the hope the other party is as stupid as the perpetrator.


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## MrBurns (5 July 2009)

Unless the waves reach the bar I'm safe,

I said I'd be nice didnt I ? Oh well.

Thanks for the tips trainspotter, I'm meeting someone who's been there 20 times so I'll be set.
This time last year I was in Europe, started in London went all the way down to Greece and back up through Switzerland to the UK again, saw the most amazing sights on the planet, then got back to Melbourne where Fed Sqauare is the big attraction, talk about depression setting in.

Anyway I digress, back to the topic.


----------



## Calliope (5 July 2009)

rederob said:


> It's someone - much like yourself - that has no substance to an argument, so "wings" it, in the hope the other party is as stupid as the perpetrator.




Never mind. You'll get over it. You just have to accept the fact that you can't be always  right.


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## Macquack (5 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm meeting someone who's been there *20 times* so I'll be set.




So your an acquaintance of Mark Richards or is it Tom Carroll.


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Some fantastic wipeouts on the video there Macquack. Do you surf?

Rederob, I will now use that word in my vernacular as per your description. I like it. "winger" ... I know quite a few of them.

"Youz dud soy yud be gud, hey bro" (in my best kiwi accent) Remember the movie "Once were warriors"? ... Jake the Muss said  "I was right... too much weights, not enough speedwork. Useless prick." sorta fits about now perhaps?


----------



## Macquack (5 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Some fantastic wipeouts on the video there Macquack. Do you surf?




Do a bit of tow-in surfing, but unfortunately I now stick to riding the jet ski.


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Maybe that could be a thread to start ? What do ASFers do for fun/sport/timeoff ?? Possible a group of likeminded people could get together and enjoy a bit of company?

What kind of Jetski? I have a Seadoo "Wake" edition 155hp. Great for tow in stuff. Also used for other stuff that I won't go into here.


----------



## Calliope (5 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Rederob, I will now use that word in my vernacular as per your description. I like it. "winger" ... I know quite a few of them.




It must have taxed the poor old bloke's brain for quite a while to come up with that nonsense definition. He has to work hard these days to weasel his way out of his stupidities.


----------



## Julia (5 July 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> No they don't need him as leader. Abbot is the man.



Nooooooooooo!   Are you quite mad, Snake?   Tony Abbott is way more 'accident prone' than Malcolm Turnbull, has zero public appeal, and is your archetypal Godbotherer. No thank you, a thousand times.  That would just about be enough to make me vote Labor!




trainspotter said:


> "Youz dud soy yud be gud, hey bro" (in my best kiwi accent) Remember the movie "Once were warriors"? ... Jake the Muss said  "I was right... too much weights, not enough speedwork. Useless prick." sorta fits about now perhaps?



Trainspotter, just restrain yourself with the Kiwi bashing.
I'm very proud of my NZ heritage and may become very offended indeed if you were to keep this up.   We Kiwis are very sensitive creatures.


----------



## Macquack (5 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> What kind of Jetski? I have a Seadoo "Wake" edition 155hp. Great for tow in stuff. Also used for other stuff that I won't go into here.




I have the Yamaha XL1200 Limited 3 seater, also 155hp. Heaps of power but chews through the gas, not suprising as the machine weighs 400 kg (fueled up).


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Lol at you Calliope ... he is trying hard to play nice with the toys in the sandbox.

Hey Julia *wink* ... read Mr Burns quote about obtaining an N.Z. accent so he is not embarrased when Kruddy goes over to meet the Pope. Nothing against people from N.Z. some of my family is from N.Z. - the black sheeps that is. ROFL.


----------



## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Macquack said:


> I have the Yamaha XL1200 Limited 3 seater, also 155hp. Heaps of power but chews through the gas, not suprising as the machine weighs 400 kg (fueled up).




Nice one ! Looked at them but chose the Seadoo for some reason or another. Slightly better glasswork and no annoying telltale shooting up in the air splashing water over the poor guy you are trying to tow in as well. Seadoo is similar, 373 kg fully fuelled. Not too bad on the juice but.


----------



## Macquack (5 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Nice one ! Looked at them but chose the Seadoo for some reason or another. Slightly better glasswork and no annoying *telltale shooting up in the air splashing water over the poor guy you are trying to tow in* as well. Seadoo is similar, 373 kg fully fuelled. Not too bad on the juice but.




I have a rescue sled (home-made) that sits on the back deck and deflects the water underneath.


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## trainspotter (5 July 2009)

Kewl, is that the white/black/silver on the tank model? The colours that Yamaha have now are a bit pusillanimous.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (6 July 2009)

Julia said:


> Nooooooooooo!   Are you quite mad, Snake?   Tony Abbott is way more 'accident prone' than Malcolm Turnbull, has zero public appeal, and is your archetypal Godbotherer. No thank you, a thousand times.  That would just about be enough to make me vote Labor!



Mr Abott is a very smart man of high quality. A vote for liberal is not a vote for communism.


----------



## Calliope (6 July 2009)

This thread  is dead. Twitter has taken over. Au revoir


----------



## trainspotter (6 July 2009)

Agreed Calliope, without evidence to prove either way it is defunct. Twitter, here we come. Alas, without rederob to use his velvet sledgehammer we are Rudderless. Te he !


----------



## Julia (6 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Agreed Calliope, without evidence to prove either way it is defunct. Twitter, here we come. Alas, without rederob to use his velvet sledgehammer we are Rudderless. Te he !



Where is the esteemed Rederob?


----------



## trainspotter (6 July 2009)

Manning the bilge pumps on the good ship "Credit Card" which is now Rudderless and firmly on the reef known as Foreign Debt.


----------



## centex (6 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Manning the bilge pumps on the good ship "Credit Card" which is now Rudderless and firmly on the reef known as Foreign Debt.




Well you certainly strung that one together quite nicely


----------



## Mr J (6 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Looks like the KRuddster, temporary leader of the good ship "Credit Card" is off the instruct the world on the GFC then he's giving an audience to the Pope, the only good to come out of this will be if the Pope rethinks the ban on birth control after suffering the destructive bull****ting little maggot.




Classic stuff . I refuse to vote for either of the major parties.


----------



## trainspotter (6 July 2009)

Hey rederob, I have found some more mud to sling !!

On June 4, the very same day Godwin Grech was first being grilled about the OzCar program by a suspiciously well-informed Liberal Senator Eric Abetz, South Australian Liberal leader Martin Hamilton-Smith penned a grovelling apology to Premier Mike Rann.

A few weeks previously, Mr Hamilton-Smith had made extraordinary allegations of serious criminal misconduct against the Premier, claiming he had invoices linking Mr Rann with an illegal $20,000 donation to the ALP from a group linked to the Church of Scientology.

Like the email at the centre of the Ute-gate affair which appeared to suggest Kevin Rudd had committed that most heinous of political crimes — misleading Parliament — the documents upon which Mr Hamilton-Smith relied turned out to be fakes.

“My allegations were untrue and the documents I released were forgeries,” Mr Hamilton-Smith wrote in his June 4 letter to Mr Rann. “I accept that the allegations I made against you in the Media Release and in subsequent media interviews were false and unfairly and improperly questioned your honesty and integrity. I accept that you did not in any way act dishonestly or corruptly.

“I unreservedly apologise to you for the hurt and embarrassment I have caused you, your office and your family.”

Like Malcolm Turnbull now, Mr Hamilton-Smith’s judgment was questioned and his capacity for higher office doubted, both inside and outside his party.

But unlike Mr Hamilton-Smith, Mr Turnbull has not apologised, nor is he expected to.

It’s not in Mr Turnbull’s DNA to take a backward step, but his reluctance could also be explained by the fact that the more we find out about this scandal, the more the Liberal Party looks like an active player.

The plotlines to this drama clearly point to the Federal Liberal Party and its leader being deeply involved, if not in the creation of the fake email, then in the manner it got out.

We know this for several reasons.

Firstly, it was Senator Abetz who initially raised John Grant, the name of the Ipswich car dealer who gave Mr Rudd the use of a second-hand ute for his Brisbane electorate. Senator Abetz put Mr Grant’s name to Mr Grech on June 4 after the Treasury official remembered there being one representation to him from the Prime Minister’s office asking for help with a car dealer.

Secondly, the manner in which Mr Turnbull pre-emptively rounded on Mr Rudd’s economics adviser Andrew Charlton at the Mid-Winter Ball on June 17, lecturing him on the virtue of telling the truth, spoke of a man who was sure he had the PM’s career in his hands.

Dr Charlton, you’ll remember, is the one who purportedly wrote the email to Mr Grech that turned out to be a fake. That email didn’t surface until June 19 when read into the public record by Senator Abetz.

Reports that Mr Turnbull met Mr Grech before the official gave his explosive evidence and as-yet undisputed claims that he and Senator Abetz were shown the text of the alleged email by Mr Grech are also descriptive of an Opposition which was much more than a spontaneous recipient of politically super-charged information.

And here’s the point.

The fact that the Opposition — like Labor before it — may or may not have moles within the Federal bureaucracy is not why Ute-gate has blown up so extraordinarily for Malcolm Turnbull. Good luck to the Opposition if they have snouts.

*But if it is proved that Mr Turnbull was actively muscling, grooming or coaching a public servant to provide damaging evidence in a parliamentary hearing — or that he was party to such activity — then it’s very troubling indeed.*

There was a chance for the powerful Senate privileges committee to probe whether there had been any undue influence on Mr Grech but that was defeated yesterday when hapless Steve Fielding sided with the Opposition. The Family First senator said: “I smell a rat with this one . . . you shouldn’t turn Senate hearings into playing politics.” That from a politician!

Mr Turnbull’s colleagues are worried by what his handling of Ute-gate says about his leadership qualities given his apparent willingness to take almighty risks with no regard to the consequences. They want courage but at least a modicum of caution.

One says: “Malcolm, he’s a front foot sort of guy who’ll throw a few hefty rights but who on occasion will expose himself on the left.”

Another Liberal says: “I’m really worried about how this is going to affect the party. Turnbull’s deeply, deeply flawed.”

Others are amazed and disappointed that Mr Turnbull should have greedily gone so hard on the Prime Minister when he had a stronger case in targeting Treasurer Wayne Swan.

“He was a bit eager — he went for the swinging knock-out punch, when in Opposition the slow, hard approach usually wins,” one Liberal old-timer said.

Then there is the fact that by pursuing the matter so personally and, in the case of Dr Charlton so publicly, he gave himself no cover.

There is palpable despair within the Opposition ranks at how this parliamentary week, the last before the six-week winter break, has played out for them.

Gifted clean air by Peter Costello’s resignation, Mr Turnbull blew it.


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## Quincy (7 July 2009)

> And the same man's press officers, who routinely demand most questions be emailed so they can parse them like a legal document, looking for loopholes before they send back a one word "yes" or "no" answer. That's when they're not playing the "Prime Minister can't recall" game. That's the one where last week I asked if Rudd had ever met his neighbour and now Australia's most famous used car dealer, John Grant, in China to help promote Grant's business interests.
> 
> The response was the Prime Minister's "couldn't recall". OK, I'll accept that politicians meet myriad people in the course of their dealings who they instantly forget. But let's apply the front bar test here. *If you'd met your neighbour in China, someone who lives in the same street as you and who'd given you a car, wouldn't you remember? One way or the other?*





This is an extract from an article in "The Australian" newspaper by Glenn Milne | July 06, 2009  (bolding is my addidtion).

See http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,,25737024-13243,00.html


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## rederob (7 July 2009)

Quincy said:


> This is an extract from an article in "The Australian" newspaper by Glenn Milne | July 06, 2009  (bolding is my addidtion).



Milne's mob got done over utegate and haven't got a story worth telling, so trot out a non-story that is just more of the guilt by association rubbish that only sticks with morons.


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## trainspotter (7 July 2009)

Thanks rederob. I am guilty by association from your remarks. I fall into the "moron" category. Hopefully I am more on than off when it comes to this kind of political stoush. It always reminds me of Pink Floyd "The Wall"

"The Trial"

Good morning Worm your honour
The crown will plainly show
The prisoner who now stands before you
Was caught red handed showing feelings
Showing feelings of an almost human nature
This will not do

CALL THE SCHOOLMASTER

I always said he'd come to no good
In the end your honour
If they'd let me have my way I could
Have flayed him into shape
But my hands were tied
The bleeding hearts and artists
Let him get away with murder
Let me hammer him today

Crazy toys in the attic I am crazy
Truly gone fishing
They must have taken my marbles away
Crazy toys in the attic he is crazy

You little ****, you're in it now
I hope they throw away the key
You should talked to me more often
Than you did, but no you had to
Go your own way. Have you broken any homes up lately?

"Just five minutes Worm your honour him and me alone"

Baaaaaabe
Come to mother baby let me hold you in my arms
M'Lord I never wanted him to get in any trouble
Why'd he ever have to leave me
Worm your honour let me take him home

Crazy over the rainbow I am crazy
Bars in the window
There must have been a door there in the wall
When I came in
Crazy over the rainbow he is crazy

*The evidence before the court is
Incontrovertible, there's no need for
The jury to retire
In all my years of judging
I have never heard before of
Some one more deserving
The full penalty of law*
The way you made them suffer
Your exquisite wife and mother
Fills me with an urge to defecate
Since my friend you have revealed your deepest fear
I sentence you to be expunged before your peers

Tear down the wall​
Aplogies go to the Pink Floyd victims of such a henious crime.


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## rederob (7 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Thanks rederob. I am guilty by association from your remarks.



So here's the association: Grant is a car dealer that has done nothing wrong.  Rudd is the Prime Minister, his association with Grant is well known, has received gifts etc. on a register of interests open for inspection, and cannot be linked improperly with him.
Yet Milne is able to prove to morons that two innocent people are actually guilty; apparently because they live in the same street and might bump into one another from time to time.
Oh that's not right.
It's because Rudd could not definitively tell Milne that in 25 years of tripping to China he wasn't sure if he might have met with Grant over there.
Rudd is guilty of not having perfect recall.
I stand corrected.


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## MrBurns (7 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Thanks rederob. I am guilty by association from your remarks. I fall into the "moron" category. Hopefully I am more on than off when it comes to this kind of political stoush. It always reminds me of Pink Floyd "The Wall"
> 
> "The Trial"
> 
> ...





Standing ovation.........​


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## trainspotter (7 July 2009)

Ha ha !!! I knew you could not lurk in the shadows and be strangled out of a right of reply in this thread. Well done old chap. I dips me lid to ya, I do !

NOW ... he lives *next door* and not in the "same street" as you have elucidated to. Mr Grant is on record as stating "Of course I am going to help my neighbour, it's un-australian if you dont". Considering that Kevin 747 has gone out of his way to woo the good citzens of Banana Republic Land with his Aussie vernaucular of late do you not think it possible that Kevin007 I say may, just might have met with Mr Grant in China to help him with his business requirements? Total recall or not. If I bumped into my neighbour in some far flung country (Admittedly I have, but it was in a bar in Bali, so that doesn't count) ((and we are both on the same social swing)) and I could not recall? Hmmm ... Prime Minister of Australia and next door neighbour (dodgy car salesman) meet in China. What? They met in the same strip club? They bumped into each other in the lobby of the same hotel? Perchance they shared a cab? I dunno rederob. Something smelly going on there. And it aint the Szechuan chicken burning !!


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## GumbyLearner (7 July 2009)

rederob said:


> Milne's mob got done over utegate and haven't got a story worth telling, so trot out a non-story that is just more of the guilt by association rubbish that only sticks with morons.




Do not mention the poisoned dwarf too much.

Straw-clutching opportunist.


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## MrBurns (7 July 2009)

The only thing that would stop Rudd helping this guy out would be his hugely unaustrailan personality which would prevent him helping anyone unless there was something in it for him. He's a selfish pig and will be BBQ'd by the AU public in time.

No crackiling for me thanks


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## GumbyLearner (7 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> The only thing that would stop Rudd helping this guy out would be his hugely unaustrailan personality which would prevent him helping anyone unless there was something in it for him. He's a selfish pig and will be BBQ'd by the AU public in time.
> 
> No crackiling for me thanks




What about a pastoral lease holder second only to the packer empire
Sexy right..you want to spend a night with him right?
If you decide to do so, just relay the experience to all of us at ASF. In all the nitty-gritty detail! 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3488775476431928333


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## MrBurns (7 July 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> What about a pastoral lease holder second only to the packer empire
> Sexy right..you want to spend a night with him right?
> If you decide to do so, just relay the experience to all of us at ASF. In all the nitty-gritty detail!
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3488775476431928333





awww you're just showing off that you can afford more drugs than we can


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## GumbyLearner (7 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> awww you're just showing off that you can afford more drugs than we can




Yeah you are right! That's me a druggie . Just got outta Betty Ford.

Enlighten me Burns. Did Alexander Downer or John Hewson ever lead the Howard/Costello to victory? Hint..Hint..Nudge Nudge wink wink say no more say no more...


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## MrBurns (7 July 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Yeah you are right! That's me a druggie . Just got outta Betty Ford.
> 
> Enlighten me Burns. Did Alexander Downer or John Hewson ever lead the Howard/Costello to victory? Hint..Hint..Nudge Nudge wink wink say no more say no more...




No they were just filling in like Rudd but Rudd stumbled into a win because the dopy Australian public thought Howard wasnt good enough, HAHAHA bet they wish he was back now.


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## nunthewiser (7 July 2009)

yes totally agree with everyone here that kevin rudd is definately the best man for the job of PM and never in a million years would he deliberatly decieve the australian public 

good bloke is our kev


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## GumbyLearner (7 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> No they were just filling in like Rudd but Rudd stumbled into a win because the dopy Australian public thought Howard wasnt good enough, HAHAHA bet they wish he was back now.




Yep that's exactly what Australia needs a country that's politically dominated by one party FOR  three decades ?

Go Back to chetnik land Mr Burns


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## trainspotter (7 July 2009)

The picture of Downer with the fishnet stocking and high heel was taking in Adelaide for the "Rocky Horror Picture Show". If my memory serves me correctly the gist of it was that the proceeds were going to some charity or another. Mr Downer was actually raising money for a good cause. GOSH !

Maybe he was using the money he raised to buy illicit, mind altering drugs that make you type shorthand and in some cryptic message that no one else can understand?


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## trainspotter (7 July 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> yes totally agree with everyone here that kevin rudd is definately the best man for the job of PM and never in a million years would he deliberatly decieve the australian public
> 
> good bloke is our kev




Glad you said "deliberately" there nunthewiser. He has been leading us astray "undeliberatley" for far too long already. The sooner the citizens of Banana Republic Land *WAKE UP GEOFF!* the better.


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## MrBurns (7 July 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Go Back to chetnik land Mr Burns




I'm sure that makes sense to you but I'm lost.

Are your sedatives on the national health or do you just use a hammer ?


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## rederob (7 July 2009)

> Milne misleads intellectually impaired
> Groping around for a news story the oft drunk Milne, doyen of gutter journalism, latched onto what we can only describe as a startlingly clever tactic; "appeal to Opposition supporters".
> Milne, in an ASF exclusive, revealed he could ensure almost 40% of readers would "fully get" what he hadn't even written.  Yes, that's right.  Even if he didn't actually say it, it was there in black and white.
> What's so mind numbingly chilling about this revelation is that he's tested the hypothesis time and time again on Liberal and National Party voters and it works every time: Even when Milne himself doesn't know what exactly he's written.
> ...



...


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## trainspotter (7 July 2009)

Your genius knows no bounds rederob ! Truly a crystalline moment of pure sagacity.

I will crawl back into my little space under the stairs and suck my thumb until I can think of an equally appropriate retort that will sting worse than the time you fell off your bicycle and grazed your knee and your Mum made you have a warm bath with Dettol. Love it.


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## GumbyLearner (7 July 2009)

MrBurns said:


> I'm sure that makes sense to you but I'm lost.
> 
> Are your sedatives on the national health or do you just use a hammer ?




I don't need sedatives cumquat! What you need is some objectivity but since you're over 60 and have no idea about politics then just go **** off!


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## trainspotter (7 July 2009)

*DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER*

A 60 year old sedated cumquat went on the rampage in ASF today leaving several small furry animals grooving with a pict in a cave, totally bewildered as to where that came from.

*ABORT DOWNLOAD* zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzttttt !!!!


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## GumbyLearner (7 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> *DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER*
> 
> A 60 year old sedated cumquat went on the rampage in ASF today leaving several small furry animals grooving with a pict in a cave, toatlly bewildered as to where that came from.
> 
> *ABORT DOWNLOAD* zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzttttt !!!!




Bring it out of date old bread crusts!


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## trainspotter (7 July 2009)

May I suggest you try the magic mushroom milkshake AFTER you have played in ASF and not before. 

Oh yeah, it should be "Bring IT, out of date old bread crusts!" 

Note the capital letters I used to bring the word "it" into a more meaningful position of malice. Also the apostrophe after "it" to delineate the adverb to the adjectives. If implying that being past a used by date in the food industry is an insult then alas, I am not. To liken ones persona to flour, yeast and water and some salt is somehow going to make me spill my 1992 Chateau au Flanc down the front of my smoking jacket then I am afraid this will not do.

Good grammar and spelling is of the utmost requirements to defend oneself when entering a verbal joust. Tally ho then old chap.


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## GumbyLearner (7 July 2009)

Cheers Trainspotter

BLOODY JEFF!!

And his team, the Hawthorn Hawks couldn't win a fart in a pickled onion eating competition at the moment. 

But hey his wife has shares in Crown Limited.  

 :

But small business people are doing well!!! yeah righttttttttttttttt!


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## kincella (8 July 2009)

suddenly, most of the posters here sound just like the labor front bench....hundreds of words spoken, but nothing makes sense.......not saying anything at all

all mumbo jumbo...what a waste of time


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## MrBurns (8 July 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> I don't need sedatives cumquat! What you need is some objectivity but since you're over 60 and have no idea about politics then just go **** off!




What is that smell errrrr OH it's you Gumby !!!, you got my age wrong for a start. Gee I wish I knew all about politics like you 

Go have a bath, double the meds :bonk: and while you're at it clean your teeth, didnt anyone tell you black was only fashionable in clothing ?

Oh yeah and **** off yourself...........:


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## moXJO (8 July 2009)

This thread turned nasty. Time for lockdown


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## MrBurns (8 July 2009)

moXJO said:


> This thread turned nasty. Time for lockdown




Just self defence, it's over now, not really interested in those exchanges anymore, it's getting boring.


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## Joe Blow (8 July 2009)

moXJO said:


> This thread turned nasty. Time for lockdown




Indeed! This thread has clearly run its course.


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