# Opportunity -- Property -- After 20 yrs its here again



## tech/a (4 July 2019)

I never thought Id see it again in my life time on the domestic front.

20 years ago You could buy property --rent it--and have surplus.
In Adelaide you can do it again very easily.
Lowest rates ever---Distressed sales---if your in the position to take advantage.
Very well priced 2-3rd home buyer properties---I keep away from First home buyer stock
I leave that for developments which I stopped in 2016.

Excellent opportunity going forward for Capital growth in selected areas.
Time for me at least to buy up.


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## HelloU (4 July 2019)

will say "go for it - seems a good idea" so u feel good about it in ur head ......

what i was really thinking was that somehow i think u r in the machinery business ....... so was wondering how big a machine it would take to pick up Adelaide and move it somewhere better.


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## sptrawler (4 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> I never thought Id see it again in my life time on the domestic front.
> 
> 20 years ago You could buy property --rent it--and have surplus.
> In Adelaide you can do it again very easily.
> ...



This is what I have been saying Duck, the same is in Perth, opportunity knocks. 
The problem has been caused, by all this Sydney/Melbourne centered negative reporting, it has actually overshot on the down cycle, in the rest of the Country. IMO


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## HelloU (4 July 2019)

apologies mate, i had just posted in a thread where junior was writing about a lady who talks dirty, and i got all excited and lost my head.

i do not want adelaide to be moved ..... it is far enough away for me already. 

(as a landlord many years ago i was forced to move away from my properties .... the start of the end .... bad long-distance stories .....)


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## tech/a (4 July 2019)

Yes SP

Mates in the west are saying the same.



HelloU said:


> will say "go for it - seems a good idea" so u feel good about it in ur head ......
> 
> what i was really thinking was that somehow i think u r in the machinery business ....... so was wondering how big a machine it would take to pick up Adelaide and move it somewhere better.




Im sure there are opportunities in most states.



HelloU said:


> apologies mate, i had just posted in a thread where junior was writing about a lady who talks dirty, and i got all excited and lost my head.
> 
> i do not want adelaide to be moved ..... it is far enough away for me already.
> 
> (as a landlord many years ago I was forced to move away from my properties .... the start of the end .... bad long-distance stories .....)




Certainly had my share of stories but I physically remove them if I have to .
Plenty of Cop mates I train with ---they don't argue.

Sure like anything there will always be challenges but Id feel guilty in 5 yrs time 
if I hadn't posted this up!

Latest was a 4 bed 6 yr old Property *1 street from the beach* 750 squ meter block all bedrooms
with walk in robes. Aircond etc. Sold Early 2018 $520K Now Contracted by me at $465K + Stamp Duty 
Interest only say 3.5% Approx $330 a week 
I have a few lined up at $450 a week. (in the superfund!).
I expect capital gain of 3% a year (First 3 years) increasing to 5 or more .


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## moXJO (4 July 2019)

NSW has a bit to go yet,  but agree with tech. Opportunities are springing up.


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## IFocus (4 July 2019)

Here in my area its common for some forced to sell $100K under what they brought the land and built for.


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## basilio (4 July 2019)

Interesting proposition  TA.  Just wondering about a couple of points.
1) Are there any concerns about poor construction?  New can be great but build quality can be a concern in quick build spec homes.

2) Could there be an issue with rising sea levels? One street back from the beach. Just thinking that the reality of rising sea levels is closer than most people realise. Even if it doesn't happen soon , IMV I think there is risk insurance companies may start to red line properties at risk of sea level rises.


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## HelloU (4 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Yes SP
> 
> Mates in the west are saying the same.
> 
> ...



soz for derail ...was waiting pre to clear and thought funny (or not so ...)

hindsight tells me i should have avoided most of my capital amount being in 2 rental properties in my early post apprenticeship years, and then moved states and lost control, but alls well that ends well ...... 
OT
(hey spt, u stirred up memories in the other, i used to live in rocky - vista avenue - and remember a brand new housing estate on the way to mand on the beach - no houses - so a great place to "tune" my MG)


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## HelloU (4 July 2019)

basilio said:


> Interesting proposition  TA.  Just wondering about a couple of points.
> 1) Are there any concerns about poor construction?  New can be great but build quality can be a concern in quick build spec homes.
> 
> 2) Could there be an issue with rising sea levels? One street back from the beach. Just thinking that the reality of rising sea levels is closer than most people realise. Even if it doesn't happen soon , IMV I think there is risk insurance companies may start to red line properties at risk of sea level rises.



sorta did/have

i was declined nearly 10 years ago when levels were raised, so just found alternate ..... that was after local council had a throwdown and refused to process development applications in those areas whilst they had a "review". Once it was decided that it was all too hard to work out they raised the floor heights by 30cm and life moved on (aussie has been building on flood land for a long time).

i live channel fed waterfront "inland salt water" so basically a little out of kilter with tidal moves and amounts. After 30 years i do not see any changes in visual levels ..... the tidal levels are just as i remember them ........not saying it is not a thing but just not a thing yet for mine .... (and when it is i will buy rocks and dirt ...... and after that i will be dead).


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## tech/a (4 July 2019)

basilio said:


> Interesting proposition  TA.  Just wondering about a couple of points.
> 1) Are there any concerns about poor construction?  New can be great but build quality can be a concern in quick build spec homes.
> 
> 2) Could there be an issue with rising sea levels? One street back from the beach. Just thinking that the reality of rising sea levels is closer than most people realise. Even if it doesn't happen soon , IMV I think there is risk insurance companies may start to red line properties at risk of sea level rises.




No I’m a builder ( civil) so haven’t seen any I look at

I’m on The Esplanade myself and this one is pretty close 
Levels would need to rise 20 feet for an issue 
Not in my lifetime


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## notting (4 July 2019)

What suburb in Adelaide would you recommend?


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## basilio (4 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> No I’m a builder ( civil) so haven’t seen any I look at
> 
> I’m on The Esplanade myself and this one is pretty close
> Levels would need to rise 20 feet for an issue
> Not in my lifetime



Excellent!


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## aus_trader (5 July 2019)

HelloU said:


> what i was really thinking was that somehow i think u r in the machinery business ....... so was wondering how big a machine it would take to pick up Adelaide and move it somewhere better.



Maybe off track a bit, but I couldn't stop laughing though. Only wished for Tech'y to scoop up CANberrah as well.


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## Smurf1976 (5 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The problem has been caused, by all this Sydney/Melbourne centered negative reporting, it has actually overshot on the down cycle, in the rest of the Country. IMO



There's really a few different markets in this context I think.

Sydney & Melbourne

All other state and territory capitals

Significantly sized regional towns. Anywhere big enough that it's got several banks, major national chain shops, sports facilities, etc.

Towns which exist solely to serve an industry or even one particular company.

Small towns, farms and remote areas.

Pretty much all the media and government focus is on the first group which ignores where 60% of the population actually lives.


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## kid hustlr (5 July 2019)

Tech, can you provide a little more detail around which parts of adelaide?


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## tech/a (5 July 2019)

For me Kid it’s about location 
What I know from past experience 
Demand 
Potential 
So my approach is narrow 

I look for Southern Beaches if you google it
Beach side of Commercial and South Road 
From Christie’s Beach to Sellicks Beach 

I want appeal to 2 nd and 3rd home buyers so has to be a bit
Out of the box with LAND for continued improvements 

When settled I’ll post it up ( the latest one )


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## HelloU (5 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Maybe off track a bit, but I couldn't stop laughing though. Only wished for Tech'y to scoop up CANberrah as well.



OT
soz again tech
not canberra per se, but there is a very very nice part of the ACT that is on the coast (often forgot about). Daily commute would be a hassle though.


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## jbocker (5 July 2019)

HelloU said:


> ... but there is a very very nice part of the ACT that is on the coast (often forgot about).



 Is there really, never seen it or knew of it. If there is Id like to see it.


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## CBerg (5 July 2019)

I agree with the sentiment tech/a but up until May I never owned property before.

I'm at the opposite end of the country to you, Townsville QLD, but there are some real bargains to be had I think if you're happy holding and can get a mortgage(or maybe not necessary depending on your position) with all the hoopla about lending at the moment.

Took my place 2 months to settle as it was part resi/part commercial - management rights if anyone is interested - had multiple friends purchase & settle straight resi properties between offer/settlement of mine.


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## againsthegrain (5 July 2019)

interest rates still due for 1 or 2 more cuts,  prices still falling.... good opportunities now perhaps even better in a year or 2


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## HelloU (5 July 2019)

jbocker said:


> Is there really, never seen it or knew of it. If there is Id like to see it.



OT
OK
to the right of those buildings ......Jervis Bay Territory


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## jbocker (5 July 2019)

HelloU said:


> OT
> OK
> to the right of those buildings ......Jervis Bay Territory
> View attachment 95932



Well I'll be...

The *Jervis Bay Territory* (JBT) is a *territory* of the Commonwealth of Australia. It was surrendered by the state of New South Wales to the Commonwealth Government in 1915 so the federal capital at Canberra would have access to the sea        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jervis_Bay_Territory


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## HelloU (5 July 2019)

jbocker said:


> Well I'll be...
> 
> The *Jervis Bay Territory* (JBT) is a *territory* of the Commonwealth of Australia. It was surrendered by the state of New South Wales to the Commonwealth Government in 1915 so the federal capital at Canberra would have access to the sea        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jervis_Bay_Territory



JB is where the aussie nuke power plant was going to be built way back whenever. roads upgraded to suit heavy haulage, and some groundwork prep done back then.


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## Junior (5 July 2019)

HelloU said:


> apologies mate, i had just posted in a thread where junior was writing about a lady who talks dirty, and i got all excited and lost my head.
> 
> i do not want adelaide to be moved ..... it is far enough away for me already.
> 
> (as a landlord many years ago i was forced to move away from my properties .... the start of the end .... bad long-distance stories .....)




hahaha, I didn't mean it to come across that way!

With regards to this topic, great post Tech/a.  There's no shortage of opinions about property and/or share-markets falling or reasons why asset prices are about to collapse, but very very identifying genuine buying opportunities.

Longer term who knows, but this certainly feels like a great buying opportunity in the short & medium term.


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## aus_trader (5 July 2019)

HelloU said:


> OT
> soz again tech
> not canberra per se, but there is a very very nice part of the ACT that is on the coast (often forgot about). Daily commute would be a hassle though.



I thought ACT was inland, as far as I remember from the last two times I visited and as jbocker mentioned.


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## aus_trader (5 July 2019)

againsthegrain said:


> interest rates still due for 1 or 2 more cuts,  prices still falling.... good opportunities now perhaps even better in a year or 2



You could be right, it's anyone's guess where it's going to head in the long term.

But I think as Junior said above there'll be a bounce in the short term. If stock prices reflect the future, then I think the run up in the major banks tells you where the property is headed in the short term. The bank Quadro-poly is so linked in with the property market that any fear of decline in property caused these shares to sag as we've seen recently and any optimism in property causes bank shares to rally as we are seeing now.

I wish you could trade property like shares i.e. to ride the short term up trend in place at the moment. So I've been researching other ways to play this trend i.e. shares that benefit from the property market. I've got a couple of shares like CSR and HVN that could have a nice knock-on effect from the property demand. I've written more detailed explanations in the Speculative Stock Portfolio.


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## HelloU (5 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> I thought ACT was inland, as far as I remember from the last two times I visited and as jbocker mentioned.



ohhh, i thought u must live there from what u said earlier about moving it ...... but yeah, there is a whole country out there. (can you quickly draw a picture of australia for me on a piece of paper)

on the real estate thing, to trade as per asx, if you want to asx invest but not stock pick then maybe index funds for property may be worth a look. then u can have all of the eggs in one basket, SLF and the like, or call warrants like SLFS01 and the like if u want leverage into the same to test your long term view. street Global, vanguard and the black rock boys all do similar stuff amongst others. Not exactly real-estate or going to make a fortune, but whatevs.

(on that picture u drew, did it have tasmania?)


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## aus_trader (5 July 2019)

HelloU said:


> ohhh, i thought u must live there from what u said earlier about moving it ...... but yeah, there is a whole country out there. (can you quickly draw a picture of australia for me on a piece of paper)
> 
> on the real estate thing, to trade as per asx, if you want to asx invest but not stock pick then maybe index funds for property may be worth a look. then u can have all of the eggs in one basket, SLF and the like, or call warrants like SLFS01 and the like if u want leverage into the same to test your long term view. street Global, vanguard and the black rock boys all do similar stuff amongst others. Not exactly real-estate or going to make a fortune, but whatevs.
> 
> (on that picture u drew, did it have tasmania?)



Good one mate, no actually I don't live in ACT. I visited a couple of times by going inland(de-tour) on trips from Sydney to Melbourne along the eastern seaboard.

Wow, SLF is making new high's ! Thanks for pointing out, that's also a good way to play this trend without taking out huge sums of money on housing loans.


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## HelloU (5 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Good one mate, no actually I don't live in ACT. I visited a couple of times by going inland(de-tour) on trips from Sydney to Melbourne along the eastern seaboard.
> 
> Wow, SLF is making new high's ! Thanks for pointing out, that's also a good way to play this trend without taking out huge sums of money on housing loans.



on that .... the underlying stocks like goodman, dexus, gpt etc are making 52 week highs right now (as in those 3 did that again today) .......... those call warrants in this may be worth a look for those thinking property will run for a while but they are generally a real pri*k of a thing to get on in decent amounts, and much worse to try to exit if things go south ...


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## qldfrog (5 July 2019)

It is hard to be positive in term of global economy now, a matter of when will the big one it and RE is so hard to get out of quickly
Basically you have to ride a fall
 if anything
I think only a very serious AUD devaluation i mean 45c to the USD would preserve RE price in case of a major economic recession  otherwise we will see another 20 or 30pc fall
I am also thinking of selling my house for a downgrade and with my usual luck it will happen at the time of a crash
So not sure it is not yet a bit too early but if you have the cash and a decent yield...
Remember during the GFC, in the US, price crashed but rents staid quite high so ...
While too early, might be better than keeping invested in shares now..
Much appreciated this thread!


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## aus_trader (6 July 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I think only a very serious AUD devaluation i mean 45c to the USD would preserve RE price in case of a major economic recession otherwise we will see another 20 or 30pc fall



The problem is knowing exactly when that "major economic recession" will come.

Just out of interest, what's the QLD RE prices like? I heard it hasn't boomed to the levels in Sydney/Melb.


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## Miner (6 July 2019)

I believe with recent APRA ruling, property is coming back.


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## Trendnomics (6 July 2019)

No opportunity, just good odds for stinky fingers........

Also...............................................................


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## tech/a (6 July 2019)

Trendnomics said:


> No opportunity, just good odds for stinky fingers........
> 
> Also...............................................................





Fear is a very strong emotion and from what I see the biggest
Reason for opportunities to be passed by.

Coulda
Woulda
Shoulda


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## explod (6 July 2019)

The economic rhetoric via the media is without depth.  Businesses are in trouble and closing, workers are losing work hours. The latest interest rate move down has been dressed up as the saviour but analysis of political and business spouting lacks tangible value.  Base materials etc., exported are doing well but do not feed back to assist our economy.

I would hold off on buying a home or investing in property for awhile yet.


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## SirRumpole (6 July 2019)

explod said:


> The economic rhetoric via the media is without depth.  Businesses are in trouble and closing, workers are losing work hours. The latest interest rate move down has been dressed up as the saviour but analysis of political and business spouting lacks tangible value.  Base materials etc., exported are doing well but do not feed back to assist our economy.
> 
> I would hold off on buying a home or investing in property for awhile yet.




I think property is a better bet than the share market at the moment.

Shares are totally out of kilter with the real economy and is surviving just on interest rate cuts and the expectation of what they may do.

If consumers were spending and employers were taking on people, the share price increase may be justified, but I think it's just a false bubble that can't last.


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## explod (6 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I think property is a better bet than the share market at the moment.
> 
> Shares are totally out of kilter with the real economy and is surviving just on interest rate cuts and the expectation of what they may do.
> 
> If consumers were spending and employers were taking on people, the share price increase may be justified, but I think it's just a false bubble that can't last.



Do not disagree rumpy, but was only thinking property.  Share market a whole different game and only for well informed players.  Can never go wrong holding property or tangible assets, but seeking to gain by entering the property market atm I would not do.


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## SirRumpole (6 July 2019)

explod said:


> Do not disagree rumpy, but was only thinking property.  Share market a whole different game and only for well informed players.  Can never go wrong holding property or tangible assets, but seeking to gain by entering the property market atm I would not do.




Yep, cash is king at the moment.


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## tech/a (6 July 2019)

Appreciate different opinions 
In the late 90s I heard exactly the same 
I’m happy to go against the trend


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## Humid (6 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, cash is king at the moment.




I don’t feel like a King with what Westpac are giving me for mine


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## SirRumpole (6 July 2019)

Humid said:


> I don’t feel like a King with what Westpac are giving me for mine




Neither do I , but at least it's safe.


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## tech/a (6 July 2019)

Is it?

Cash sitting doing nothing 
Erodes in buying power.


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## aus_trader (6 July 2019)

explod said:


> The economic rhetoric via the media is without depth.  Businesses are in trouble and closing, workers are losing work hours. The latest interest rate move down has been dressed up as the saviour but analysis of political and business spouting lacks tangible value.  Base materials etc., exported are doing well but do not feed back to assist our economy.
> 
> I would hold off on buying a home or investing in property for awhile yet.



Thanks for the run down on the "pulse" of the economy at the moment. IMO property is a very long term thing and I cannot see how it could be bought and sold like shares for shorter to medium term gains. So I'll be happy to wait for the time being. Besides it's a huge sum of money that needs to be put up for property investment.

However there are ways to benefit from the current return to the appetite for property using the share market. There is a whole host of beneficiaries who ride on the back of property booms the most obvious of which is the banks who lend out the mortgages. Banks have rallied back up fast, so I am looking for other beneficiaries. Therefore I try to align myself with such in my share purchases at the moment, as mentioned in my earlier post.


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## tech/a (6 July 2019)

Aus
If you have equity you can build a property portfolio 
With no $s down 
Did it myself!


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## sptrawler (6 July 2019)

againsthegrain said:


> interest rates still due for 1 or 2 more cuts,  prices still falling.... good opportunities now perhaps even better in a year or 2



Catching the bottom is always difficult, by the time everyone recognises it, it is too late.
IMO much easier, to understand your market and picking the distressed assett sale when it presents.


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## tech/a (6 July 2019)

Don’t care if it’s a bottom or not it’s about the NUMBERS


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## againsthegrain (6 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Catching the bottom is always difficult, by the time everyone recognises it, it is too late.
> IMO much easier, to understand your market and picking the distressed assett sale when it presents.



I agree with that but isn't it better to catch the knife on the recovery rather then on the way down not knowing how deep the hole is?


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## sptrawler (6 July 2019)

againsthegrain said:


> I agree with that but isn't it better to catch the knife on the recovery rather then on the way down not knowing how deep the hole is?



IMO property is a bit different to shares, if you know your market you keep your eyes open, there wont be many opportunities in really good quality areas. You have to be ready to grab the opportunity w hen it arises.
It may be a property that you can buy now and rent out for several years and then move in.
In top areas they only take massive hits a couple of times in a lifetime, shares happen much more often.
Just my opinion


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## Smurf1976 (6 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> IMO property is a bit different to shares, if you know your market you keep your eyes open, there wont be many opportunities in really good quality areas. You have to be ready to grab the opportunity w hen it arises.
> It may be a property that you can buy now and rent out for several years and then move in.
> In top areas they only take massive hits a couple of times in a lifetime, shares happen much more often.
> Just my opinion



Also with RE you're dealing with one seller for any given property. It's not like buying shares where for anything other than an extremely illiquid stock there's going to be multiple sellers.

You're in a better position to negotiate the price down so long as that seller perceives that the bottom hasn't occurred yet and that every week they don't sell is costing them money.


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## qldfrog (6 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Is it?
> 
> Cash sitting doing nothing
> Erodes in buying power.



Sitting in cash erodes at around 2pc a year, i can wait 10y and lose 20pc
Or the same as a 2 months minor share correction, 1 or 2 years minor correction RE
The fact is: Australia has an unusual recent run, not matched in any other economy
You also have to realise you hear of course of the successes, the losers are not here on that forum.
The mortgagees of the bowen basin recently but also the real estate investors of the 1980s
I bought my first home here in brisbane in the early 90s at the same price as it was sold to the previous owners in the 80s, 10pc interest rates or more, inflation 4 to 5pc a year at least, and 0$ increase for 10y , if you add stamp duties and costs, see how good real estate has been then for these investors
You know the " can not lose b" mortar assets...
So i for one do not believe RE is that solid an asset and while you can sometimes get some return, it has a cost and is very inflexible
BUT i do believe that indeed it could be a good bet now, but a bet it remains
And no stop loss
As I see it in brisbane outer ring, for houses, market has been reasonably flat


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## Smurf1976 (6 July 2019)

One thing can be said with absolute certainty.

RE in Sydney, Melbourne or Perth is a better bet now than it was at the height of the boom in those cities. However good or bad it is to invest now, it's better now than it was previously.

The other capitals haven't had any real decline and for regional areas it will vary.


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## aus_trader (7 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Aus
> If you have equity you can build a property portfolio
> With no $s down
> Did it myself!



There might be pocket of the market that may offer good value, so will monitor any good investment opportunity.
But I am in no rush to invest in property. To put it into reality most properties are double the price of what they were only 5 to 10 years ago, despite the recent decline since last year.


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## tech/a (7 July 2019)

Yes that’s very true and 4-6 x what they were 20 years ago.

The numbers work and like all business decisions the numbers have to
Be right.

I felt the same as you from 2006 sold all properties over the next 10 years
I had 10
In retrospect my fear of loss cost me around $150k a property.

We all make our own decisions and live by them.
I get them as wrong as anyone else.

Back 15 -20 years ago I was buying $90k properties which did double
Making $90k
Today a $450k property has to increase 20% for the same $90K
Scale! I don’t need them to double!


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## CBerg (7 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Yes that’s very true and 4-6 x what they were 20 years ago.
> 
> The numbers work and like all business decisions the numbers have to
> Be right.
> ...



When you say it's all about the numbers tech/a what sort of analysis do you do?

I read you're preferring growth over cashflow buying bigger blocks close to the water.
Are you buying with high or low LVR? Does negative gearing come into it? I think you said houses but would you buy apartments/units in the right circumstances?

I'm just starting out with property investing and I'm trying to consume as much as I can.


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## Trendnomics (7 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Back 15 -20 years ago I was buying $90k properties which did double
> Making $90k
> Today a $450k property has to increase 20% for the same $90K
> Scale! I don’t need them to double!




Right....but you don't see a problem with risking 5 times as much capital for the same return? Or are there no inherent risks with property investing (same bias perpetuated by every muppet out there)?

Not much of an opportunity, nor is it an equivalent opportunity compared to 20 years ago.


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## tech/a (7 July 2019)

While it’s a similar $ return it’s not a similar %

In the case I’m looking at it’s a distressed sale bought in 2017 for $520k 
Have offered $460k
2 have sold in the same vicinity for $535 and $510 respectively in the last 4 mths.

It needs about $20k to bring it to premium
I have Tennents I know at $450 a week sorted 
That’s about 5% and growth in the area over the last yr is 
8% happy with 3% 
I’m not saying EVERY sale is an opportunity 
But they are there.

Yes there are problems with most everything to do with Investments 
But you can’t let challenges STOP you.


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## Austwide (7 July 2019)

Property has been my form of investing for many years. I only see one creditable risk - HAVING to sell in down times. Houses go up mostly but down at times. Population keeps rising, we all have to live somewhere. The old supply and demand. I suppose i am stuffed if we all go and live on Mars.

The only expensive house to buy is the one you live in. The rest only cost the difference between rent and costs.

As Tech says, do the numbers. Rent in less cost like interest, rates, maintenance, insurance, land tax, etc means a house may only be $100 per week out of pocket or even less. Most of that cost is principle repayments which is really forced savings. A few years later those numbers are even better.

Rule 1 Most important is to have a buffer so even if the house is empty for 6 months you don't need to sell.

Land appreciates, buildings depreciate. More land (house vrs unit) generally equals better capital growth but lower returns.

Rule 2 Don't take any advise from anyone (real estate wise or anything wise) unless they do what your planning to do.

Some say there not liquid enough. True but once set up, that makes them better as you can just borrow against them.

Example in 2000 I got made redundant. Prior to finishing work I set up a line of credit against my house. 40K payout = deposit on 2 houses at 95K ea. I possibly had to chip in a bit for a year or 2 (not much as I was unemployed). Houses have been paid off 10 years ago, worth K600 ea or maybe only 500 now in this down market but who cares. Rents haven't fallen and I don't need to sell. the fact I could borrow against them to invest elsewhere kept the capitol growth happening.

Back then you could buy any house for that to work, but I think today you have to be a bit more creative and find an opportunity


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## aus_trader (7 July 2019)

If you take the same analogy as shares for property, how much risk would have to be taken for a potential 20% upside ? I kind of lean towards Trendnomics's argument.

Not saying property is a bad investment or anything, in fact I would be willing to buy investment property at lower prices with all the leverage that comes with it by putting a small deposit down. But if you look at the last part of the Aus property chart (the exponential part), it's in unprecedented territory. We can make all the arguments whether as to why Australian property should be so valuable but I think a 'reversion to mean' is also a possibility. By that I don't mean a collapse, but a more sustainable growth from a lower base formation after a period of decline. Since I believe property is a long term investment, I am happy to wait for the time being...


----------



## tech/a (7 July 2019)

Yes I agree that is a strong possibility
Almost a certainty.
I personally am hoping I will get my 20% 
Before the longer term plateau.
At sometime there will be inflation 
At that time I’ll want some property


----------



## aus_trader (7 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Yes I agree that is a strong possibility
> Almost a certainty.
> I personally am hoping I will get my 20%
> Before the longer term plateau.
> ...



I agree in the short term at least with you. I believe property is in for a run up in the short term. I wouldn't be buying property related shares if I didn't believe so.
Just don't know how long the rally will last. Time will tell. If it turns out to be another 20 year bull market from here I'll be happy to stay out. It's not about being right or wrong but it's about making common sense decisions.
tech/a FYI, we are not all that different in the risk management side although the scale is different. You sold 10 in 06' and I sold my rental in the middle of GFC. Since then I've seen prices spiral out of control but I am at peace with myself for staying sensible. Will buy again at reasonable prices someday...


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## tech/a (7 July 2019)

20 and certainly 30 yrs will see me out 
Time to spend on some selfish stuff!


----------



## aus_trader (7 July 2019)

It's good that you started this topic tech/a, good way to monitor the prices of various cities/towns and what the general mood of the market is.


----------



## HelloU (8 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> 20 and certainly 30 yrs will see me out
> Time to spend on some selfish stuff!



are u talking hips and knees?


----------



## tech/a (8 July 2019)

Yes knees investigating options going forward with specialist— not bone on bone 

But more so using the funds accumulated for the pleasures in life we all work toward!


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## sptrawler (8 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Yes knees investigating options going forward with specialist— not bone on bone
> 
> But more so using the funds accumulated for the pleasures in life we all work toward!



My situation exactly, two knees and right hip, one to go then it is a full house.


----------



## tech/a (8 July 2019)

Hips are evidently more successful than Knees.
2 Knee replacements absolutely destroyed my
Dads life. Never the same and eventually bed ridden.
Lots of mates have had hips and all ok.
Of the 6 I know who have had Knee replacements 
only 1 is as good as a normal person. The others
wish they never did it!---Cant reverse it!

So looking at stem cell etc and prolonging while Im good
best option in my view 5-10 yrs is a lot in this field.


----------



## sptrawler (8 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Hips are evidently more successful than Knees.
> 2 Knee replacements absolutely destroyed my
> Dads life. Never the same and eventually bed ridden.
> Lots of mates have had hips and all ok.
> ...



The knees aren't as good as the originals, but at least you can walk. Before the replacements I could only walk about 300-500mtrs, then had to sit down due to the pain, now I can walk all day no problems. The only down side I have found is you can't kneel on them, so it is either lay down or sit down, to do jobs at that height, like some car jobs and jobs in kitchen cupboards etc. I had my first knee done 11 years ago, second 8 years ago, hip was done 5 years ago.
They stuffed up the hip, one leg slightly shorter than the other, so perpetual limp, no pain just a poxy limp.
With regard the operation, the knees are an 8 out of 10 for pain, the hip 3-4 out of 10.
It has been well worth doing, for quality of life, but if you are to get it done research your specialist. A good place to start is the therapy pool at the hospital, talk to people who have had it done, the  surgeon is the key to a good result. IMO
With regard your Dad, it may be more about when he had it done, knee replacement prosthesis's improved hugely about 12-14years ago. They found a way to super harden the polyethylene rubbing block, between the metal joints, so they now last 25-35 years without problems, apparently well I certainly hope so.
A bit of topic, but it is an important decision, well worth discussing.


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## aus_trader (8 July 2019)

On the same topic hips/knees, does insurance cover any of the costs?

I didn't get what you guys were discussing initially but thanks for the explanations. These are realities of life. I've come across a few carpet layers in the building industry who used to go real hard at it with the knees and joked about needing to rake it in while they can since they'll need it later for knees.


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## HelloU (8 July 2019)

5 grand or so per eye as well

(is there any point talking breast implants at that age?)
(i trade ema crosses as entry ...... for another time perhaps)


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## tech/a (8 July 2019)

If you can prove it is job related then possibly.
I cant I ran Ultra Tri's when late 20s 30s and 
been involved in Martial Arts again last 2 years
so getting thrown around doesn't help an old body.

But I love it.


----------



## aus_trader (8 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> If you can prove it is job related then possibly.
> I cant I ran Ultra Tri's when late 20s 30s and
> been involved in Martial Arts again last 2 years
> so getting thrown around doesn't help an old body.
> ...




I see, the carpet layers got in early with private insurance as their premium rocketed if they waited. That explains it.


----------



## sptrawler (8 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> On the same topic hips/knees, does insurance cover any of the costs?
> .




It was about $25k per joint at a private hospital, biggest cost the hospital, the surgeon and anaethetist about $3k each, from memory. I was about $3k out of pocket per joint.


----------



## aus_trader (8 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> it was about $25k per joint at a private hospital, biggest cost the hospital surgeon and anaethetist about $3k each, from memory. I was about $3k out of pocket per joint.



Thanks for the info sptrawler, mostly covered by insurance therefore.


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## Mr Z (15 July 2019)

Personal debt is sitting @ 125% of GDP, what could possibly go wrong?


----------



## satanoperca (15 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> Personal debt is sitting @ 125% of GDP, what could possibly go wrong?



1. People stop paying the debt
2. People stop taking on more debt

So, nothing can go wrong.


----------



## aus_trader (16 July 2019)

satanoperca said:


> 1. People stop paying the debt
> 2. People stop taking on more debt
> 
> So, nothing can go wrong.



No. 2 will certainly help but I think the situation can be contained as long as interest rates stay in this near zero environment.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> No. 2 will certainly help but I think the situation can be contained as long as interest rates stay in this near zero environment.



I'm with you on that, from my immediate group of acquaintances which is a pretty broad spectrum, from glaziers, electricians, garbo's, library workers, small business owners, unemployed etc. I see most consolidating where they are financially, or where they want to be and working as quickly as possible toward it. Those who have investment property, are offloading, to concentrate on PPR, I think Labor scared the bejeezuz out of them.

So as you say, if the interest rates stay low, my guess is we will slide through this low, which I personally believe has bottomed.
Just my opinion.


----------



## IFocus (16 July 2019)

When extended debt is the fuel that runs the economy (US before GFC) then a reversion to the mean (often over shoots) is going to happen.

Accurate forecasts of this are really rare and eventually some doomsayer gets it right (they are only ever right once and wrong for the rest hence they make no returns).

Also normally the market weakens quite a bit but gets held up by punters as the professionals sell to them  crying how its a great buying opportunity. 

Until then party like its 1999.............with one finger of the sell button


----------



## Mr Z (16 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> No. 2 will certainly help but I think the situation can be contained as long as interest rates stay in this near zero environment.




 Where is price growth going to come from then, if there is no marginally higher bidder? (aka financed)


----------



## Mr Z (16 July 2019)

The question stands.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2019)

Yes my apologies, wrong thread.


----------



## aus_trader (16 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> Where is price growth going to come from then, if there is no marginally higher bidder? (aka financed)



Good question, got me thinking actually. Like Homer, I was a bit dozed off.

I was thinking more in terms of containing the situation so that people can still hold onto the assets bought with debt. The thread is about property so let's say holding onto homes and investment prop's. That may be possible paying almost nothing on the principal at current interest rates. You can stay on top of the repayments even on the dole (Centrelink) combined with a side hustle a few hours a week at the moment, so my point stands.

The point that woke me up from my doze-off is when you mentioned *growth* ! I have no idea where that is going to come from, unless RBA pushes interest rates below zero. I'll be a net borrower in that case, perhaps go deep, a few mil in debt to earn the -ve interest that is payable to borrowers.

Thanks for the wake up call. Likes given.


----------



## aus_trader (16 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> The question stands.



Absolutely  , Good question.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> Where is price growth going to come from then, if there is no marginally higher bidder? (aka financed)




There wont be any real price growth, over the next few years. IMO
Like I said in an earlier post on this thread, once the herd has turned and headed for the doors, it is hard to generate any enthusiasm. 
Only what is seen as a bargain will move, what was fear of missing out, is now fear of getting caught. Also the apartment debacle in Sydney, wont help sentiment.
No it will be quite a while before anything starts moving. IMO 
Flight Centre will probably do o.k.


----------



## Mr Z (17 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> There wont be any real price growth, over the next few years. IMO




I agree, but price rarely stays stable. If no growth then the prudent bet is contraction.



sptrawler said:


> No it will be quite a while before anything starts moving. IMO




I think quite a good fundamental bear case is in place and that over the next few years waiting for the low will be the smart move. IMO jumping in now, despite the fact that Scomo may have generated a bounce here, is being a little too keen. JMO, DYODD etc...


----------



## Mr Z (17 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Good question, got me thinking actually. Like Homer, I was a bit dozed off.
> 
> I was thinking more in terms of containing the situation so that people can still hold onto the assets bought with debt. The thread is about property so let's say holding onto homes and investment prop's. That may be possible paying almost nothing on the principal at current interest rates. You can stay on top of the repayments even on the dole (Centrelink) combined with a side hustle a few hours a week at the moment, so my point stands.
> 
> ...




Hey Aus,

In a nut shell I think the fact that we are running into trouble with historically low rates is troubling. My immediate expectation is that rates will go lower BUT I think that this next thrust lower will be a good candidate for THE LOW in what has been almost a 40 year bond market bull (driving rates down!). Due to the fact that rates are so low any turn in that trend will result in enormous pressure on variable rate lenders. Every basis point up from here results in a much bigger payment increase than it does from a higher rate. No trend ever says in place forever, this one is over due to turn and the only probable prevention is the HIGHLY inflationary policy of direct monetization of debt aka print money @ a faster and faster rate.

Anyway... I can see all sorts of stress coming in our housing market if this bond bull market falters, which is a WHEN, not an IF.

Personal debt is 125% of GDP, its way more comfortable if it sits in the 50% to 60% range BUT markets doing what they do we will probably have to dip below that to get there.

+ All this would pressure boomers to liquidate to cover their collective butts. As a generation they tend to be a self fulling prophecy in market terms, which has generally been good for them. Just remember that their needs will roughly align and they will change direction at about the same time for about the same reasons. What has been a virtuous cycle could become a vicious one if rates go too far north OR too much inflation kills the game. Remember real estate lags when inflation gets off the leash.

Anyway... I'm probably wrong, so don't worry.


----------



## Mr Z (17 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Yes my apologies, wrong thread.




Well, you got a reply anyway!


----------



## Mr Z (17 July 2019)

Martin North DFA Interview.


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> I agree, but price rarely stays stable. If no growth then the prudent bet is contraction.
> 
> 
> 
> I think quite a good fundamental bear case is in place and that over the next few years waiting for the low will be the smart move. IMO jumping in now, despite the fact that Scomo may have generated a bounce here, is being a little too keen. JMO, DYODD etc...




I think that may be the case in Sydney and Melbourne, but if you take for example Perth, prices are back to a point where 2-3 years wages buys a property in a reasonable suburb.
It is getting to the point, where you can buy a 3x1 rental for $200k and get $300 P/W rent no problem.


----------



## aus_trader (17 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I think that may be the case in Sydney and Melbourne, but if you take for example Perth, prices are back to a point where 2-3 years wages buys a property in a reasonable suburb.
> It is getting to the point, where you can buy a 3x1 rental for $200k and get $300 P/W rent no problem.



Wow! You can't buy a dog-house to live in for that price in Melb/Syd. So your view is valid IMO. I'd be interested in property at the matrix you mentioned.


----------



## aus_trader (17 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> Anyway... I'm probably wrong, so don't worry.



I think you are probably correct.

Interest rate lever has been pulled to the maximum, unprecedented levels that has been ever experienced since the invention of money and lending that mankind has ever seen. As you said they can jab on it a couple of more times before going -ve i.e. provide incentive to borrow. We are in "unknown" territory, let's see how it plays out...


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Wow! You can't buy a dog-house to live in for that price in Melb/Syd. So your view is valid IMO.



That is the whole problem, all the news is Sydney/Melbourne specific, but the collateral damage in other areas is massive.
On t.v and in the newspapers, it doesn't tend to emphasis that the problem with prices is Sydney/Melbourne specific, they generalise and the other markets react accordingly.
I never wanted to get back into RE investment, as I'm retired and can't be bothered, however the returns are becoming compelling. IMO


----------



## Mr Z (17 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I think that may be the case in Sydney and Melbourne, but if you take for example Perth, prices are back to a point where 2-3 years wages buys a property in a reasonable suburb.
> It is getting to the point, where you can buy a 3x1 rental for $200k and get $300 P/W rent no problem.




That is good, and you are well ahead of us in terms of price correction, but if the debt level is still high in your market then there is still an issue. You need specific market data to decide, cheap can always get cheaper.


----------



## aus_trader (17 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> That is the whole problem, all the news is Sydney/Melbourne specific, but the collateral damage in other areas is massive.
> On t.v and in the newspapers, it doesn't tend to emphasis that the problem with prices is Sydney/Melbourne specific, they generalise and the other markets react accordingly.
> I never wanted to get back into RE investment, as I'm retired and can't be bothered, however the returns are becoming compelling. IMO



Yes, I'd be interested in property at the prices/yield you mentioned.


----------



## Mr Z (17 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I never wanted to get back into RE investment, as I'm retired and can't be bothered, however the returns are becoming compelling. IMO




It will become compelling at some point here, that much is true. I'd like to see rates swing up first, personally.


----------



## investtrader (17 July 2019)

I don't think we have an equity bubble, but property is a different story. I well remember house prices going sideways for 10 years or more, which is what may happen. This an old graph but illustrates the sideways prices.


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## aus_trader (17 July 2019)

investtrader said:


> This an old graph but illustrates the sideways prices.



Nice chart, but since the 2007 GFC dip, it has gone exponentially up. So I think a long period of consolidation as you mentioned is likely.

Melb/Syd may also see a reversion to mean scenario, I guess a long sideways grind or a slow decline back to reality. No one wants their home to fall in value including me, but we have to be realistic I think.


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## Mr Z (17 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> So I think a long period of consolidation as you mentioned is likely.




I think that is quite probably best case, we should end up looking like Perth at the least. JMO.


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## Garpal Gumnut (17 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> I think that is quite probably best case, we should end up looking like Perth at the least. JMO.



And houses not units. 

gg


----------



## satanoperca (17 July 2019)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And houses not units.
> 
> gg



There is always a correlation between houses and units prices, based on one fundamental, they both provide shelter, but not necessarily best investment.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 July 2019)

Go to ABC iView and look at tonights news. 

Crisis loom in Unit market.

Not even whatsisname in Sydney, will be able to spruik his way out of Building Surveyors indemnity rising 12 fold to $120,000 with a $200,000 per unit excess. 

No Building Surveyor's tick, no units built.

And those that have been built may crumple even with our infrequent small earthquakes, floods and rain.

gg


----------



## satanoperca (17 July 2019)

Again, there is always a correlation between the prices as they both fundamentally provide the same need, shelter. 
That is not to say the correlation is 1:1, but there is a ratio between the prices, that said if we live in a capitalistic community, which we do. 
Example if a 2br apartment is worth $200K and a 2br house is worth $800K, how long can the house sustain the price.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 July 2019)

satanoperca said:


> Again, there is always a correlation between the prices as they both fundamentally provide the same need, shelter.
> That is not to say the correlation is 1:1, but there is a ratio between the prices, that said if we live in a capitalistic community, which we do.
> Example if a 2br apartment is worth $200K and a 2br house is worth $800K, how long can the house sustain the price.



re. Units vs Houses. 

I've only ever rented units as a tenant and the owners were made quite aware of any faults etc. so overall it was profitable for me to have someone else provide the upkeep of my dwelling.

My guess is, and I may be wrong, that more units are rented than houses. 

Thus as my good friend Donald Rumsfeld said 
_
Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.
_
I'd be wary of buying a unit for rental over a house. Just my opinion.

gg


----------



## satanoperca (17 July 2019)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> re. Units vs Houses.
> 
> I've only ever rented units as a tenant and the owners were made quite aware of any faults etc. so overall it was profitable for me to have someone else provide the upkeep of my dwelling.
> 
> ...



I agree, however it is never a simple equation.

Land will always appreciate, the old saying, they are not making more of it, so a house or more to the point - the land component will increase in time, the apartment has less of, so it capital appreciation is less. 

That is in simple form, but are dumb arse tax laws that make shelter and investment, screw the figures, as a new apartment has a greater tax advantage or an old house, with depreciation allowance. 

So was I to invest in land(houses) or apartments (services), no, both are for shelter, I prefer to invest in innovation/creation/growth/improvement/employment in living standards for all.

Dependents on your convictions and whether you can stand by them.


----------



## againsthegrain (17 July 2019)

people always say they can't make more land but the government sits tight on it and slowy drip feeds and releases more land.  I have seen one estate in Mulgrave SE Melbourne which has been releasing more and more lots since early/mid 2000s so it seems there is still quiet a bit of land "to be made"


----------



## aus_trader (18 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> I think that is quite probably best case, we should end up looking like Perth at the least. JMO.



It's a huge correction in price to get to that level, but then again have to be open minded to the possibility.
It wouldn't feel cosy living in a house that is worth a lot less than paid for if that was the case in my situation. But a scenario like that would also benefit people who have struggled to enter the housing market that has run hot for years. So there is always two sides to the equation, whether we like it or not.


----------



## Mr Z (18 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> So there is always two sides to the equation, whether we like it or not.




This is the problem when an irresponsible central bank foments a property bubble. You can't undo it without significant damage. In the end it is much better to let a free market oscillate on real inputs rather than miss price money to achieve a short term economic outcome. It's akin to taking cocaine too run a marathon, might work a few times but in the end doing the fundamental work is a far more sustainable route.

JMO... etc

Gold is good insurance, maybe hedge your property exposure a little AND hope you never need to cash the insurance.

Just a thought.


----------



## HelloU (18 July 2019)

make the point that all currency is a made up human thing (all money is a synthetic product) ....... there are no laws of nature that currency should follow as money does not exist in the "natural world", so it is pointless trying to expect it to be anything other than a manipulated human invention.


----------



## Mr Z (18 July 2019)

HelloU said:


> make the point that all currency is a made up human thing (all money is a synthetic product) ....... there are no laws of nature that currency should follow as money does not exist in the "natural world", so it is pointless trying to expect it to be anything other than a manipulated human invention.




You need to stick all FIAT currency into that statement. Also that doesn't have to be so, it could theoretically be implemented in way that it mimics the better features of a commodity based currency. That isn't likely to happen but... you never know. As a side note I am watching Kinesis Money with interest.


----------



## tech/a (18 July 2019)

againsthegrain said:


> people always say they can't make more land but the government sits tight on it and slowy drip feeds and releases more land.  I have seen one estate in Mulgrave SE Melbourne which has been releasing more and more lots since early/mid 2000s so it seems there is still quiet a bit of land "to be made"




Unlike in the US of A this is how it works 
Developers buy very large swathes of land normally at broad acre farm rates.

They lobby councils to change zoning immediately adding massive $$s to their investment 

Now both investors and council aren’t stupid they know an area at various times can only take the release of x amount of building blocks 

So subdivisions are cut up and sold in Stages from 30 to 100 at a time 

Now that can take 10 or more years to subdivide and sell it off

Kabooom more $$s in appreciation 
More $$s in smaller lots

Eye watering profit if you get it right.

Back to work!


----------



## aus_trader (18 July 2019)

Mr Z said:


> Gold is good insurance, maybe hedge your property exposure a little AND hope you never need to cash the insurance.
> 
> Just a thought.



I have a little bit of money in Gold related investments in my Medium/Longer Term Stock Portfolio, but I will need to add to it.


----------



## IFocus (18 July 2019)

Researching properties I am looking at common to see now advertised $200k below price paid in 2014 ish must be hurting some one.


----------



## tech/a (18 July 2019)

Sure but if you have it as part of your income strategy then that's a hefty tax loss write off.
Sure there will be some who lose the lot but if they are doing $$s in this environment then better now for everyone 
including the lender than later when Interest rates are climbing.

On the other end of the scale someone did very well.

I cant see much different with Stock market losses.
You can do your shirt--then some!!
Some of course buy new suits.

Banks are well aware of this and why rates are low its still pretty hard to get $$s if you
aren't well asset backed, or have a big slice of equity.


----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> I cant see much different with Stock market losses.
> You can do your shirt--then some!!
> Some of course buy new suits.
> .



It was only two years ago, that the people were screaming that the young couldn't buy into the market and the Government should be helping them.
Now most that did jump into the market, are screaming in pain, I guess we just like to feel sorry for people it is human nature.
When the stock market swings up and down, you don't hear a peep, about those getting burnt.
I guess there isn't the personal emotion involved, as there is with a house and its price.


----------



## qldfrog (18 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> When the stock market swings up and down, you don't hear a peep, about those getting burnt.
> I guess there isn't the personal emotion involved, as there is with a house and its price.



Plus the suckers (aka us) do not realise that this 1% fall  means their super lost more on such a day than they will do in the week.
As both sides of government plus unions/finance lobby want the gravy pot to continue, you will not expect to see this changed.
Let's just keep the labour class war friendly:" bloody rich bastards lost 24 billions today..." 
-> teach them a lesson say the blue collar working before forking 10pc of his income to the comrade in charge of his industry fund...
or to be fair to the hedge fund on his way to the bahamas
Super is such a great industry to be in here: no real risk, forced contributions every month, no risk of shame: do you even know who is in charge of your super: the name of the CEO or his team?
A dream come true, the perfect merger of communism and twisted capitalism


----------



## qldfrog (18 July 2019)

IFocus said:


> Researching properties I am looking at common to see now advertised $200k below price paid in 2014 ish must be hurting some one.



@IFocus, where are you looking? NSW, Victoria?


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## john5 (19 July 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Plus the suckers (aka us) do not realise that this 1% fall  means their super lost more on such a day than they will do in the week.
> As both sides of government plus unions/finance lobby want the gravy pot to continue, you will not expect to see this changed.
> Let's just keep the labour class war friendly:" bloody rich bastards lost 24 billions today..."
> -> teach them a lesson say the blue collar working before forking 10pc of his income to the comrade in charge of his industry fund...
> ...



yep, bony rabs said super was a con


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2019)

Bony rabs?
Could not find in urban dictionary.
Please enlighten me @john5 
I can have a guess but...


----------



## tech/a (19 July 2019)

This is the one I picked up.

https://www.realestate.com.au/property/25-shoreline-ave-sellicks-beach-sa-5174


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## Junior (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> This is the one I picked up.
> 
> https://www.realestate.com.au/property/25-shoreline-ave-sellicks-beach-sa-5174




How much would that have cost to build?


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## tech/a (19 July 2019)

Land 700 square meters say $250k bargain at $200k there is land available in the same few streets.
Building single story 350 square meters low end $1500/ square meter
But say bargain built $1200 a square meter so $420k
Bargain total $620k but likely high $600ks 
That doesn’t include landscaping/driveways enclosed garage in the rear.

I paid $470K last sale was $520k


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Land 700 square meters say $250k bargain at $200k there is land available in the same few streets.
> Building single story 350 square meters low end $1500/ square meter
> But say bargain built $1200 a square meter so $420k
> Bargain total $620k but likely high $600ks
> ...



Looks good tech. What are the rents like that way?


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## tech/a (19 July 2019)

Have it rented at $400 They move in a week after settlement.


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## Junior (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Have it rented at $400 They move in a week after settlement.




Sounds like a winner.  If all else fails you can go & live there.


----------



## wayneL (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Have it rented at $400 They move in a week after settlement.



Jesus... Cheaper rent than Qld.

That'd be 530 all day long here,  maybe more.


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## tech/a (19 July 2019)

wayneL said:


> Jesus... Cheaper rent than Qld.
> 
> That'd be 530 all day long here,  maybe more.




If you can make room for me Wayne!


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## wayneL (19 July 2019)

I think there's some reasonable opportunities here in Queensland, John.  And if you go a little bit out of the square some really good ones.


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## tech/a (19 July 2019)

I was shooting up to Radges  Seminar but had to cancel
due to a staff run of unforeseen issues leaving me without 
senior staff for a week if I went!

Ah the sacrifices we make!

But frankly I like them just down the road! (IP's)


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## aus_trader (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> I was shooting up to Radges  Seminar but had to cancel
> due to a staff run of unforeseen issues leaving me without
> senior staff for a week if I went!
> 
> ...



Yes, it's hard to find a good agent to manage everything if the property is interstate IMO. Worse still, if the property got trashed by the tenants or flooded in the case of QLD, I think it's so much easier if you are a local landlord.


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## wayneL (19 July 2019)

And I wouldn't say Queensland agents are the best


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## sptrawler (19 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Yes, it's hard to find a good agent to manage everything if the property is interstate IMO. Worse still, if the property got trashed by the tenants or flooded in the case of QLD, I think it's so much easier if you are a local landlord.



Over the years I have had some mind boggling opportunities, with regard properties located away from home e.g brand new appartment in St Katharines dock marina 80,000 pound early 1990's, brand new 4x2 town house bondi beach $800k 2002.
Do I wish I had bought them, yes for the profit, no for the sleepless nights worrying like $hit.


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## qldfrog (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> This is the one I picked up.
> 
> https://www.realestate.com.au/property/25-shoreline-ave-sellicks-beach-sa-5174



how much or is it too early to say?
Good on you @tech/a


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## sptrawler (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> .
> I paid $470K last sale was $520k



If I was 40, with $hit loads of shares, I would be off loading enough to purchase a property that I wanted to end up in.
Then negative gear it for the next 20 years, and continue on my merry way, I'm with you Duck these opportunities don't present many times in your life.
Just my opinion and I'm too old to take advantage of the opportunity.


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## tech/a (19 July 2019)

Never too old mate 
I’m ancient and still having fun


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## sptrawler (19 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Never too old mate
> I’m ancient and still having fun



I would be in, but the other half isn't interested, so there is nothing but downside.
Happy wife happy life, sad but true.


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## qldfrog (20 July 2019)

My apology tech/a asked the price. After you gave it..missed posts.. thanks for your openness
I come from a time where purchase at $xyz thousand would translate to $xyz a week rent.
Is that not true anymore?


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## kid hustlr (20 July 2019)

Looks good tech and agree numbers stack up in what appears a good spot (only been to adelaide twice both for work).

Incredible you know that home is a multi million dollar home (easy) in the nicer parts of sydney


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## tech/a (20 July 2019)

Sydney is a whole new world 
We have priced some work there 
Haven’t won anything yet but 
Price difference is massive in everything.


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## moXJO (20 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Sydney is a whole new world
> We have priced some work there
> Haven’t won anything yet but
> Price difference is massive in everything.



It's funny like that. If you find the right places you can get stuff manufactured for half the price of what it is out of Sydney. Yet the installers are often twice the price and slap it up. Rents and homes are ridiculously priced and I just don't see them coming down much inner-city  (unless it's a condemned block of units).


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## sptrawler (20 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> It's funny like that. If you find the right places you can get stuff manufactured for half the price of what it is out of Sydney. Yet the installers are often twice the price and slap it up. Rents and homes are ridiculously priced and I just don't see them coming down much inner-city  (unless it's a condemned block of units).



It is the old supply and demand, if all the buyers walked away, there would be some distressed sellers and prices would fall. Then the bank's would be asking for more collateral, which would mean more distressed sellers and so on.
While there are people prepared to pay the prices, they won't go anywhere.
My son just bought a rural block, had to sell his 3. X 1 in Perth, at the peak it was about $350k, just accepted the only offer $220k had to take it.
He was lucky he bought it when he was 19 for $65k.


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## explod (20 July 2019)

The big dry, particularly inland appears to have no end.

People will have to follow the water.


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## tech/a (20 July 2019)

Wow
That’s the biggest drop
I’ve heard in Aust % wise 

Friend in the UK bought a condo in Spain 20 years ago for £350k
Sold it 3 years ago for £68K

That hurt as he is retired now


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## Miner (20 July 2019)

Humid said:


> I don’t feel like a King with what Westpac are giving me for mine



I will open a reward account with the bank offers most. That will fetch better cash rate and easy availability. The only conditions are some regular cash inflow monthly (even $5 will do) and the month you draw, do not get the bonus rate. But consider you get filtered through getting nothing on normal accounts and have cash to blast when you need.


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## aus_trader (20 July 2019)

qldfrog said:


> My apology tech/a asked the price. After you gave it..missed posts.. thanks for your openness
> I come from a time where purchase at $xyz thousand would translate to $xyz a week rent.
> Is that not true anymore?




The good old days are well behind us in terms of getting a good rental income IMO.

Actually tech/a's purchase is not bad as an investment or even if bought as a live in by owner occupier. It has nice spacious living areas and luxuries like a theatre room and gazebo for entertaining.


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## aus_trader (20 July 2019)

Miner said:


> I will open a reward account with the bank offers most. That will fetch better cash rate and easy availability. The only conditions are some regular cash inflow monthly (even $5 will do) and the month you draw, do not get the bonus rate. But consider you get filtered through getting nothing on normal accounts and have cash to blast when you need.




Even with bonus interest added, the rate you get is very low as an annual %. Can't complain I guess since the official (RBA) interest rate is near zero. Let's say you can squeeze out 1.5% with all the bells and whistles added to today's highest paying interest savings account, it still takes 47 years to double your money in such an environment (see below). There'll be trees growing on my grave in another 47 years.


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## Miner (21 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Even with bonus interest added, the rate you get is very low as an annual %. Can't complain I guess since the official (RBA) interest rate is near zero. Let's say you can squeeze out 1.5% with all the bells and whistles added to today's highest paying interest savings account, it still takes 47 years to double your money in such an environment (see below). There'll be trees growing on my grave in another 47 years.
> 
> View attachment 96284



@aus_trader 
100% agreed on your point regarding 47 years to be double.
I was responding to a situation when cash money is to be parked temporarily in a volatile market for short term as a risk mitigation exercise than not getting anything out of cash.
I will be real optimistic  to have a game plan to double my money in 47 years


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## aus_trader (22 July 2019)

Miner said:


> @aus_trader
> 100% agreed on your point regarding 47 years to be double.
> I was responding to a situation when cash money is to be parked temporarily in a volatile market for short term as a risk mitigation exercise than not getting anything out of cash.
> I will be real optimistic  to have a game plan to double my money in 47 years




Yes Miner, we do have to have a game plan and gone are the good ol' days of doubling your money safely in cash every 14 years at a reasonable rate of 5%.




What a difference, 47 years at current interest rates compared with just 14 years in our younger days (or our parent's retirement days).​
That's the scenario at ~5%, a lot of retirees planned for in terms of protecting and growing their money as well as drawing an income from their nest egg in their golden years.

It's a whole new ball game now, with interest rates at the lowest levels since mankind has invented lending. We have to diversify our investing into areas like cash, shares, gold, bonds and even real estate if prices become affordable again. So don't feel bad, we have to roll with the punches and find ways to survive and prosper in this new era.


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## InsvestoBoy (22 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Contracted by me at $465K + Stamp Duty
> Interest only say 3.5% Approx $330 a week.




This was pretty interesting, I wanted to run the numbers, can you help me understand?

It seems stamp duty on this property would be $19,580.

So you fork out $19,580 and take out an interest only loan for $470,000 at 3.5%, costing ~$315 a week in interest payments and rent it out for $400 a week?

Then tack on some expenses like $1500 a year in council rates, and $400 a year of land tax, not to mention any maintenance or anything else you might spend on the property?

Is that about right?

So it's not really an "investment" in the sense of returning a meaningful yield or providing a surplus to you, you just lever up with an IO loan from the bank and hope to sell it off down the road for a profit?


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## sptrawler (22 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Yes Miner, we do have to have a game plan and gone are the good ol' days of doubling your money safely in cash every 14 years at a reasonable rate of 5%.
> 
> View attachment 96297
> 
> ...




To explain how bad it is for older people these days, my MIL recently asked me how to buy $100k of CBA, to put that in context I couldn't get her to buy $100k of CBA in 1994.
When they were $10. 
Now she is scared how fast her savings are going down and she is 80+ years old.


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## aus_trader (22 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> To explain how bad it is for older people these days, my MIL recently asked me how to buy $100k of CBA, to put that in context I couldn't get her to buy $100k of CBA in 1994.
> When they were $10.
> Now she is scared how fast her savings are going down and she is 80+ years old.



That's the irony.

I can't give any fin. advice but perhaps ask your Mother-In-Law to consider spreading the risk rather than buying just one company. I know as we get older we are hungry for yield and shares can offer a very much attractive yield than cash at the moment. But at least ask her to kindly consider spreading that money across multiple stocks in multiple sectors to mitigate the risk of one company taking a huge dive and wiping most of her life savings.


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## sptrawler (22 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> That's the irony.
> 
> I can't give any fin. advice but perhaps ask your Mother-In-Law to consider spreading the risk rather than buying just one company. I know as we get older we are hungry for yield and shares can offer a very much attractive yield than cash at the moment. But at least ask her to kindly consider spreading that money across multiple stocks in multiple sectors to mitigate the risk of one company taking a huge dive and wiping most of her life savings.



Yes she has had the money in term deposit for 20 years, since the FIL passed away, she is only talking about it ATM. If she gets serious, I will suggest possibly AFI, or ARG something like that.
But it just shows, how easy it would be to prey on older people, in low interest times like these.


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## aus_trader (22 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Yes she has had the money in term deposit for 20 years, since the FIL passed away, she is only talking about it ATM. If she gets serious, I will suggest possibly AFI, or ARG something like that.
> But it just shows, how easy it would be to prey on older people, in low interest times like these.



Yes this is an environment that retirees can get sucked into high risk assets by financial advisors and fund managers with the yield carrot on the end of the stocks.

Those diversified listed funds you mentioned are much better at spreading the risk than buying into a single share. They also offer a good dividend yield way above cash rates at the moment.


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## Humid (23 July 2019)

tech/a said:


> Land 700 square meters say $250k bargain at $200k there is land available in the same few streets.
> Building single story 350 square meters low end $1500/ square meter
> But say bargain built $1200 a square meter so $420k
> Bargain total $620k but likely high $600ks
> ...




Under 500k halve the duty?


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## Junior (23 July 2019)

InsvestoBoy said:


> This was pretty interesting, I wanted to run the numbers, can you help me understand?
> 
> It seems stamp duty on this property would be $19,580.
> 
> ...




A couple of points to add here:
- Rent will rise over time with inflation.
- Tax benefits are significant and should be factored in.  i.e. as this is a recently constructed home there will be a deduction for depreciation.

I'm sure tech/a will have more to add.


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## tech/a (23 July 2019)

Doing tenders so flat out 
Ill comment when I get my head out from under
the mountain of paper work.
Anyone got some codine!!


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## Junior (23 July 2019)

aus_trader said:


> Yes this is an environment that retirees can get sucked into high risk assets by financial advisors and fund managers with the yield carrot on the end of the stocks.
> 
> Those diversified listed funds you mentioned are much better at spreading the risk than buying into a single share. They also offer a good dividend yield way above cash rates at the moment.




This is an issue with some stockbrokers and advisers.....a loophole where they can still be paid upfront commission on investment recommendation.



> The LIC market has rapidly doubled to $45 billion since 2014, when the Coalition government watered down Labor’s Future of Financial Advice (FOFA) laws to allow advisers and brokers to resume receiving commissions for selling listed securities.
> 
> FOFA was intended to end conflicted remuneration for financial advisers, but some advisers are receiving commissions of up to 3 per cent to sell LICs and LITs to mum and dad investors.
> 
> ...




https://www.afr.com/personal-financ...ushed-into-risky-listed-funds-20190710-p525x6


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## sptrawler (23 July 2019)

Junior said:


> This is an issue with some stockbrokers and advisers.....a loophole where they can still be paid upfront commission on investment recommendation.
> 
> https://www.afr.com/personal-financ...ushed-into-risky-listed-funds-20190710-p525x6




It is crazy, when you can buy LIC's on the market, why the hell would anyone pay an adviser to buy them?
Also there is plenty of low cost, low risk, well established mature LIC's around, like AFI, ARGO and Milton.


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## jbocker (23 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It is crazy, when you can buy LIC's on the market, why the hell would anyone pay an adviser to buy them?
> Also there is plenty of low cost, low risk, well established mature LIC's around, like AFI, ARGO and Milton.



Some folk need an advisors opinion as they simply don't trust their own opinion / or lack knowledge. Some advisors are very convincing seem trustworthy and sell you up. Unfortunately along with them are the scammers.


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## john5 (27 July 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Bony rabs?
> Could not find in urban dictionary.
> Please enlighten me @john5
> I can have a guess but...



back when he first became pm, on a few forums, tony abbott was prescribed the nickname "bony rabbit" which i did find humorous, and subsequently shortened it myself to bony rabs ...


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## againsthegrain (19 September 2019)

john5 said:


> back when he first became pm, on a few forums, tony abbott was prescribed the nickname "bony rabbit" which i did find humorous, and subsequently shortened it myself to bony rabs ...




So SA seems its still falling,  cutting all the manufacturing jobs definitely not helping with any recovery 

maybye jumped the gun a bit on this one eh? 

https://indaily.com.au/news/2019/09/18/adelaide-house-sales-take-record-dive/

House sales in Adelaide have plunged to their lowest level in at least 17 years, with figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics showing the sharpest decline on record.


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## tech/a (19 September 2019)

Opportunity screaming!


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## leyy (22 September 2019)

Been looking at some properties to invest myself given the opportunities available.

Thought i would run @tech/a calculations, wont be exact but should be relatively close, i have had to make a few assumptions.

General thoughts and observations
*cash flow positive (very important) from a serviceability point of view.
*good upside for capital growth.
*net return is low (without capital growth, market needs to be moving up to make money).


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## leyy (22 September 2019)

If you look at the return on invested capital it works out to be 4.39% with the upside of capital growth.


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## tech/a (22 September 2019)

Paid for it —— no loan no bank fees 
In Super so less tax
Everything else pretty similar.

Potential for 30% over 10 years 
Similar increase in Rent.

Better than Bank interest and I have enough 
Exposed to the market.


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## sptrawler (22 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> Paid for it —— no loan no bank fees
> In Super so less tax
> Everything else pretty similar.
> 
> ...



I'm looking at the same idea Tech/A, I can pick up a 3x1 free standing unit for $200k, $250Pw min income, $60pw outgoings, in the super fund.
It would give a bit of diversity and steady cash flow, the owner wants to rent back indefinitely, so giving it serious consideration. The only down side IMO, as I age I hate the idea of getting back into rentals, can be more trouble than it's worth.


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## tech/a (22 September 2019)

Yes I’ve had probably 30 in my time managed all of them myself 
I look after good Tennent and physically remove very bad ones.

Issues are temporary.
But not for everyone.
I personally like something with LAND that’s where the money is.
I’ve had units but they are hard to sell.
Attract a lower social group.


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## Miner (22 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> Doing tenders so flat out
> Ill comment when I get my head out from under
> the mountain of paper work.
> Anyone got some codine!!



How is the status of your tenders submitted after two months? Still value for money to get you excited>


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## sptrawler (22 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> Yes I’ve had probably 30 in my time managed all of them myself
> I look after good Tennent and physically remove very bad ones.
> 
> Issues are temporary.
> ...



Agree with you completely, but now I'm retired looking after a block of land and a house, as opposed to just a unit with minimal land is a toss up.
There is more money in the house and land, but there is less outlay for similar income and considerably less garden(hassle).
I as you, have always managed my own properties, as using property managers from my experience, is just throwing away money.
The other half says I have rocks in my head, shares are paying better, less hassle and trouble free.
So it isn't an easy decision, if it payed off I was lucky, if it is a lot of hassle it is "I told you so".
But the prices are getting ridiculously cheap IMO.


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## tech/a (22 September 2019)

Diversity SP


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## tech/a (22 September 2019)

Miner said:


> How is the status of your tenders submitted after two months? Still value for money to get you excited>




After a dearth of Quality tenders there was a pleasant return to some decent ones coming across
my desk.
While we are talking with some of our principals we are yet to win anything of significance.
Nothing is being let.
I expect that a few will come out of those I have completed back then.

Everything in the Civil field is very very quiet.
Banks not releasing funds without knowing the last cent you've spent over the past 12 mths 
and pledging your first born.

Its tough everywhere and we are securing anything we can to keep staff employed 
Unfortunately I've had to let some go.

Producing more than we are securing.


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## Miner (23 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> After a dearth of Quality tenders there was a pleasant return to some decent ones coming across
> my desk.
> While we are talking with some of our principals we are yet to win anything of significance.
> Nothing is being let.
> ...



thanks Tech. I do share some of the concerns. My note is on yours on the same subject.
God bless you to win your bids. I am sure you would be happier with 70% success rate in current market.


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## Miner (23 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Agree with you completely, but now I'm retired looking after a block of land and a house, as opposed to just a unit with minimal land is a toss up.
> There is more money in the house and land, but there is less outlay for similar income and considerably less garden(hassle).
> I as you, have always managed my own properties, as using property managers from my experience, is just throwing away money.
> The other half says I have rocks in my head, shares are paying better, less hassle and trouble free.
> ...



Maybe you consider joining hands with Joe to stop him shutting  this forum.


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## aus_trader (23 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> I look after good Tennent and physically remove very bad ones.



I like that comment, and can see the bogans being "physically" dragged out by the ear.


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## qldfrog (23 September 2019)

Hope you wil be ok @tech/a 
Never easy to be in that position and always take a toll on the personal side, but i im sure you are doing as good as can be


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## tech/a (23 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Hope you wil be ok @tech/a
> Never easy to be in that position and always take a toll on the personal side, but I'm sure you are doing as good as can be




Thanks QF
I find the hard times the most rewarding (*To reflect on*) I certainly don't like the ups and downs in the building industry which
often leave good staff who (in the good times) have been with you for years left to fend with everyone else in a depressed market.
People who have done nothing but serve you well but we have to let go for the good of everyone else. Quite a few do return as
happened in 2009.

Tough times reduce your Complacency.
They make you revisit everything from Pricing to Efficiencies to Purchasing.
It magnifies weaknesses. I found quite a few.
Once rectified we managed to start securing contracts. All be it smaller domestics.
While not our primary market we do go there when expertise requires or the Market makes us.

Strangely while typing this one of our larger Clients call for our availability for a Subdivision.
The worm is starting to turn but very slowly.


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## aus_trader (23 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> Tough times reduce your Complacency.



Well said tech/a. It's a time to reflect on strengths and weaknesses.

I was looking at a few companies on the ASX today and the same thing could be said. Big re-structures and major cost cutting programs in place to reduce/remove exactly what you said "complacency".


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## Johny5 (23 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> I look after good Tennent and physically remove very bad ones.



Yes I suppose if you have a few big mates (or as you have noted before a few mates in Blue) you can get rid of the bad tenants, but I have several friends that have lost out big time on bad tenants trashing the place, one friends rental was so badly trashed that the house was condemned, the tenant then took him to the tribunal for making them live in a condemned house, what a mess.


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## Johny5 (23 September 2019)

But having said all that I also know a few that have made a fortune doing exactly what tech/a is doing, so keep on keeping on


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## sptrawler (23 September 2019)

Johny5 said:


> Yes I suppose if you have a few big mates (or as you have noted before a few mates in Blue) you can get rid of the bad tenants, but I have several friends that have lost out big time on bad tenants trashing the place, one friends rental was so badly trashed that the house was condemned, the tenant then took him to the tribunal for making them live in a condemned house, what a mess.



Been there done that, the house was trashed so bad I had to demolish it, then sold the block. That was when the other half said, never again.


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## aus_trader (23 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Been there done that, the house was trashed so bad I had to demolish it, then sold the block. That was when the other half said, never again.



Oh, it could get that bad hah? When I had my investment property I had to go through 3 tribunals to get rid of them and the house had to be repaired including broken glass (shower screen/ some windows), holes/cracks in the walls, new carpets, light fittings and a code of paint to finish off which I painted myself to keep the costs down. All out of pocket too (except painting), since I didn't have landlord insurance. But thankfully didn't have to be demolished as it was not structurally damaged.

So I am not in a hurry to do it all over again but I wouldn't say never.


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## tech/a (24 September 2019)

I hear you all

People who trash property have no respect for
You the owner or any tribunal.

I have on 3 occasions come around with a few
Mates and literally removed then changed locks
And slept over the next week

I’ve been hauled up to courts and armed with photos
and witnesses Copped the fine. But they never came back.

Tribunals are to help good people who get in bad situations
They seem to miss that owners can actually be good people
And tenants can be really bad people.

The other thing I learnt over time is that the more expensive 
the rent the better the tenant became.
Ferals  just don’t want to pay or live in these areas.

You get better at it.
Just don’t get sucked into the owner with his heart
On his sleeve —- it comes back and bites hard.


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## qldfrog (24 September 2019)

Agree, not as bad experience but no permanent rental for me anymore
Holiday renting, airbnb, so far so good


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## tech/a (24 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Agree, not as bad experience but no permanent rental for me anymore
> Holiday renting, airbnb, so far so good




Ahhh

Interesting.
I bought the house behind me. Being on the esplanade once I join it with my property 
the land value goes from $500 a square meter for 1 back from the espy to Esplanade 
Rate $1100 a square meter.

I want to keep it on separate titles and to do so have to place a dwelling on it.
So have designed the Pool/Outdoor Kitchen Gym Sauna,Games room which 
can be totally separate to the Two Bedroom Apartment which is designed into
the development.
Or it can be opened up the make available all of these facilities.

Air B@B just a 2 bed Apartment 100 meters from beach 
OR
All of the above.
We can close off from our home or open it right up.

In planning as we speak.
Another passive income stream.


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## aus_trader (24 September 2019)

tech/a said:


> The other thing I learnt over time is that the more expensive
> the rent the better the tenant became.
> Ferals just don’t want to pay or live in these areas.



Thanks for the advice mate, I'll keep that in mind when I decide to diversify back into a rental property. When the price is right, next one I look for will be a house on a block hopefully catering for the financially better off tenants.

The investment property I had was a unit (unattached except at the garages) which was in a good suburb and prior to having the bad tenant I had two good tenants who styed there for 3-5 years at a time with no problems whatsoever. So it was an unfortunate incident that cost me a fair bit of money but hasn't put me off from property investment altogether. In fact I didn't sell up due to the incident but due to the market rising too fast for my liking. I have sold too early, well before the peak but still realised a nice capital gain on it.


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## Trendnomics (4 April 2020)

Trendnomics said:


> Right....but you don't see a problem with risking 5 times as much capital for the same return? Or are there no inherent risks with property investing (same bias perpetuated by every muppet out there)?
> 
> Not much of an opportunity, nor is it an equivalent opportunity compared to 20 years ago.




Those "inherent risks" become more apparent today!


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## tech/a (4 April 2020)

Well again I don’t know about that
My $470k investment is still work that
Dropped 18% in my SMSF and have quite a few friends
Who lost 20-35%


----------

