# How did you become an atheist?



## Happy (14 August 2009)

God thing was worked around with 1065 replies so far, so I will refrain from adding another slant on the issue there. 
However I wander how does it happen that a person is/becomes an atheist?

As 8 years old bloke asked my father if there is crowd in the sky with all the gods? 
At the time I read books about Native American gods, ancient Egypt gods, gods in India, Japan.


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## Sean K (14 August 2009)

I read the Bible, in detail.

What a crock!


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## gm500 (14 August 2009)

I was always skeptical of religion. At about age 12 I learned about the concept of atheism and saw that it wasn't necessary to believe in God.

Since then I've officially been an atheist, but you could probably say I've been an atheist since birth.


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## nunthewiser (14 August 2009)

when i was 9 my bike got stolen

i prayed and prayed for a new one for my birthday

i got given a microscope

i told the church bloke about my dilemma and he reckoned God didnt work that way and i was to be thankful for the microscope 

i reckoned he was fulla pooo so i formed my own religeon


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## stockGURU (14 August 2009)

I've always been an atheist.

I've never found any of the religious fairy tales believable. It's a crutch. Some people turn to booze and drugs, some turn to religion. It helps some people get through their day to day existence thinking that when they die they'll be going to paradise in the sky. 

However, as much as I would like to buy into it, intellectually I am unable to.


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## drsmith (14 August 2009)

When someone can adequately explain where all the water came from for Noah's flood then I'll reconsider.

Explanations such as the work of god or similar not accepted.


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## Timmy (14 August 2009)

drsmith said:


> When someone can adequately explain where all the water came from for Noah's flood then I'll reconsider.




I think its something to do with central banks adding liquidity????


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## drsmith (14 August 2009)

Timmy said:


> I think its something to do with central banks adding liquidity????



Well it is easier to walk on money than it is to walk on water.


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## gooner (14 August 2009)

God made me an atheist 

Seriously though, how can you not be an atheist if you are reasonably intelligent?  Gods were invented by illiterate backward people to explain what they could not understand.  These people need to get with the 21st century.


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## Agentm (14 August 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> when i was 9 my bike got stolen
> 
> i prayed and prayed for a new one for my birthday
> 
> ...




god damn it!!

thats where my microscope went.. all i got was this lousy bike..

there is a god after all.. he has a sick sense of humour


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## Agentm (14 August 2009)

drsmith said:


> When someone can adequately explain where all the water came from for Noah's flood then I'll reconsider.
> 
> Explanations such as the work of god or similar not accepted.




clouds????


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## drsmith (14 August 2009)

Agentm said:


> clouds????



Kate Bush could have had something to do with it.


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## white_goodman (14 August 2009)

I went to a catholic school


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## nunthewiser (14 August 2009)

white_goodman said:


> I went to a catholic school




so did i ...... up until the age of 12 

after having to stand under some statue of mary on a daily basis waiting for the cane i figured it must be a whole crock of crap as i read in the bible God wasnt into sadistic punishment for his "flock "

so i started a new religion

agentm gimme back my bike ! i prayed for it . i deserve something.


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## Uncle Festivus (14 August 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> so did i ...... up until the age of 12
> 
> after having to stand under some statue of mary on a daily basis waiting for the cane i figured it must be a whole crock of crap as i read in the bible God wasnt into sadistic punishment for his "flock "
> 
> ...




....an atheist Nun, Nun? You should be de-frocked....

I have my own religion too - The Order Of Worthless Miracles -  excellent tax dodge


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## nunthewiser (14 August 2009)

Uncle Festivus said:


> ....an atheist Nun, Nun? You should be de-frocked....





 i try to on a daily basis


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## Cink (14 August 2009)

i don't believe in "religion" per se but i respect people's believes, does it make me an atheist


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## trainspotter (14 August 2009)

"Genesis said that Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able BUT no daughters recorded?" I asked this question in Religious Instructions when I was 8 years old. I was sent out of the classroom, never to return. Tried various gospel churches, outreach centres, revival groups, Catholicism and got married in an Anglican church. When the "leader/priest/head honcho" is blubbing like a baby on your shoulder asking YOU for money/advice/instructions you rapidly lose "FAITH" in humanity and the religious vehicle behind it.

Oh yeah .... If the RI teacher had said this:-

_The Bible is clear. The Bible states in very plain and simple language at Genesis 5:4 that "...he (Adam) became father to sons and daughters." Notice the plural "sons" and "daughters." Since Adam lived for 930 years, he reasonably could have fathered many, many children. His sons, including Cain, would have married their sisters, or nieces. This would sound repulsive to us today, but consider the circumstances back then. It would have been proper at that time, since the Earth's population was relatively sparse, and the human race was to be proliferated according to God's purpose. It was only later that God made the restriction not to marry one's own sister or brother. _

I might have reconsidered.


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## Agentm (14 August 2009)

nunster

i hocked it for a microscope.. and they threw in a gideon


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## Mr J (14 August 2009)

I'd like to know why I won't get to live for 930 years.


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## Krusty the Klown (14 August 2009)

I think most atheists realise they are an atheist around age 7 when they become aware of how they fit in to the world around them. The age when you start to discern fantasy from reality. That's what happened to me. 

The bible is simply not logical - but still a source of endless entertainment for me. My favourite part is the book of Leviticus - where God tells his followers the exact manner in which animals should be sacrificed to him - by cutting their throats inside the church and then burning the remains on the altar! Absolutely true!!!!

Having said that, people don't understand when I tell them that I am an atheist but also a buddhist !!!


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## trainspotter (14 August 2009)

Mr J said:


> I'd like to know why I won't get to live for 930 years.




"Get behind me Satan !  You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." Original Sin. LOLOL. Nahhhhhh ... Prolly cause you drink and smoke and are given to tempation. 

OR Moses really stuffed it up and was dyslexic and could not count when he data entried the dates on the birth certificates.


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## drsmith (14 August 2009)

trainspotter said:


> "Genesis said that Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able BUT no daughters recorded?" I asked this question in Religious Instructions when I was 8 years old. I was sent out of the classroom, never to return.



What if you said you thought Genesis was where Spoc was resurrected.

Nun might have then had company under the statue of Mary.


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## Agentm (14 August 2009)

hey crusty

maybe its like the ole feelin duped thing

first the tooth fairy isnt real

then e bunny is not real.. 

then santa...

then you kinda go..  hang on a minute...  wtf is this thing with walkin on water?

and coming back to life?? come on!!

about then you dont need to be told another thing. being duped a number of times. not going to happen again..

i mean when a guy in robes and a hat starts chanting and singing praises and swings smoke from a shiny thing on a chain.. pretty easy to start sayin "theres something loopy goin on here"


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## Mad Mel (14 August 2009)

I'm not even sure if I am an atheist.  I don't believe in God.  I also don't disbelieve in God.  I just don't care.


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## Agentm (14 August 2009)

i was listening to this guy on the radio a few weeks back.. i liked his views myself and he spoke well, i think he was trying to organise a meeting with all people from all beliefs.. a sort of belief fest so to speak..

anyway i think he has reasonable clarity in thought..

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/articles/atheism-belief

Is Atheism a Belief?
Author: 
David Nicholls

It is reasonably common for religious persons and others to class Atheists as those that have a "belief" system. It is taken for granted that the Atheist's "belief" system is somewhat different from a "belief" in the supernatural and sundry. Proponents of such loose use of the language would wish to bring Atheists down to their level of accepting un-evidenced dogma. They then "reason" that it is far better to have a "belief" in that which has some perceived beneficial or "moral" good than that which is "godless" and therefore immoral. How very wrong, incorrect and opposite to the truth is that thought.

The Macquarie Encyclopedic Dictionary definition of "belief" is:

1. that which is believed; an accepted opinion.
2. conviction of the truth or reality of a thing, based upon grounds insufficient to afford positive knowledge:

Most other Dictionaries tender similar definitions.

Those definitions are basically saying that a "belief" is not formed by critical scientific investigation but by emotions, feelings and unsubstantiated opinion.

As a child I can hold a "belief" that the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are real characters. I can have a "belief" that Unicorns exist and that Ghosts and Goblins etc. are also real.

As an adult I can hold a "belief" that any one of the numerous gods purported, do actually exist, and that humans have an immortal "soul". Some even have a "belief" in UFO's, the power of crystals and a myriad of other unproven paranormal activity.

Atheists do not accept that any of the above imaginary creatures or powers do exist as no scientific evidence is extant in support of those propositions. This is not a "belief", it is just lack of scientific evidence in their support.

The word "belief" has been incorporated as part of the religious language of ethereal nonsense with a design to confuse the faithful. Certain words have been with humanity since the beginning of time and have been refined in use to fool the unwary. "Belief" is one of them.

If religion was not evolutionary driven, with its majority acceptance "seen" as a herd benefit, then the word would not exist in its present form but would simply be a word or phrase that states that we do not know.

That which we do not know is our ignorance and seen in that light, a "belief" in the supernatural etc. is giving ignorance far greater credibility than reasoned thinking should permit.

Many so-called examples of our "beliefs" are thrown at the Atheist, but none come anywhere near being good explanations. For example, we have a "belief" the Sun will come up tomorrow. Forgotten, so it seems, is that by example of the Sun coming up every day for billions of years hence, shows a pattern that cannot be denied that it will come up again tomorrow. "Belief" has nothing to do with it.

Another is since we do not fully understand how electricity works, we somehow have a "belief" in the workings of electricity. It may not be fully understood but it is accepted that if a toaster is connected to it, the bread will cook. Again and so on and so forth, "belief" has naught to do with it.

If religions and such could do likewise and show by previous experience or experiment that some part of future action could be predicted, it would then no longer be a "belief" system.

If "belief" in the super-natural had some kind of quantifiable substance to it, then it would escape the realms of our acceptance of ignorance as a way of explaining the world.

The religious and others have a "belief" that ignorance is superior to empirical knowledge.

Atheist see no credible empirical or scientific evidence for the super-natural and therefore reject the notion as one only originating from our ignorance.

There is absolutely no similarity between the Atheist philosophical stance in life and that of the religious. Atheists accept only facts, whereas the religious et al find no need for them.


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## darkside (14 August 2009)

I don't believe you "become an atheist" , i think when we mature and think for ourselves we unlearn the lies and superstitions  that our parents chose to indoctrinate us with. We really just return to a more natural level state  when we stop believing in some "carrot and stick " deity.

You could just have easily have started this thread with , when did you stop believing in Santa or the easter bunny, it's no less ridiculous , in fact some may find it more plausable.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2009)

This cartoon says it all.

gg


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## Calliope (14 August 2009)

darkside said:


> I don't believe you "become an atheist" , i think when we mature and think for ourselves we unlearn the lies and superstitions  that our parents chose to indoctrinate us with. We really just return to a more natural level state  when we stop believing in some "carrot and stick " deity.
> 
> You could just have easily have started this thread with , when did you stop believing in Santa or the easter bunny, it's no less ridiculous , in fact some may find it more plausable.




Yes, you are right, it's just a matter of growing up. The corollary of course is that those who believe in a supernatural deity have never grown up. How can we trust leaders who profess to believe in a supreme being? They are either liars or fools.


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## bassmanpete (14 August 2009)

You don't become an atheist; you're born an atheist, then the brainwashing begins.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2009)

bassmanpete said:


> You don't become an atheist; you're born an atheist, then the brainwashing begins.




It starts early mate, always has. 

gg


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## GumbyLearner (14 August 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It starts early mate, always has.
> 
> gg




It reminds me of newspaper obituaries.

Why does everyone die in alphabetical order?


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## Julia (14 August 2009)

I have to take a position of agnosticism, given I have seen no *evidence* for or against any sort of God.

Maybe there is some supernatural entity out there which  only reveals itself to those who profess a belief.

I went to Sunday School and Bible Class as a child and teenager, the latter probably more to meet boys than to verify any connection with a God.

Through all that stuff, much was preached about a loving and merciful God.

But when I saw how this God allowed such immense suffering, that was the end for me.


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## Julia (14 August 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> .
> 
> Why does everyone die in alphabetical order?


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> It reminds me of newspaper obituaries.
> 
> Why does everyone die in alphabetical order?




Gumby mate, you are heading for quote of the year here.

gg


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## Macquack (14 August 2009)

Interestingly, the chances of an atheist being elected as the President of the USA (or PM of Australia) are very slim.

That tells me, there are a lot of fence sitters out there.


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## explod (14 August 2009)

Was raised a strick catholic, was serious about becoming a priest at 14 but folks could not afford fees to send me to college, so left school, was a shearer then joined police force.  Wound up at uni, read a number of books, most influential "the golden bough"  learnt history and realised it was a wank created by men to control the populace.


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## So_Cynical (14 August 2009)

kennas said:


> I read the Bible, in detail.
> 
> What a crock!







stockGURU said:


> I've always been an atheist.
> 
> I've never found any of the religious fairy tales believable. It's a crutch. Some people turn to booze and drugs, some turn to religion. It helps some people get through their day to day existence thinking that when they die they'll be going to paradise in the sky.
> 
> However, as much as I would like to buy into it, intellectually I am unable to.






Krusty the Klown said:


> I think most atheists realise they are an atheist around age 7 when they become aware of how they fit in to the world around them. The age when you start to discern fantasy from reality. That's what happened to me...The bible is simply not logical




I cant really add anything...its all been covered....that's why im an atheist.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2009)

Julia said:


> I have to take a position of agnosticism, given I have seen no *evidence* for or against any sort of God.
> 
> Maybe there is some supernatural entity out there which  only reveals itself to those who profess a belief.
> 
> ...




It makes me wonder how we as humans first came up with the thought of god.

Garpaldog just lives for sunshine, sex, connection with others, one good turn deserves another, food and water, not necessarily in that order.

I tend to go with garpaldog.

gg


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## Julia (14 August 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It makes me wonder how we as humans first came up with the thought of god.
> 
> Garpaldog just lives for sunshine, sex, connection with others, one good turn deserves another, food and water, not necessarily in that order.
> 
> ...



Ah, but garpaldog doesn't realise he's going to die.   It's my belief that faith in a God is largely a counterpoint to the fear of dying.  

If you believe that adherence to worship of a God will ensure a life after this one, the transport of your soul if you like, then much of that fear of death is replaced by a picture of another existence, free from the worries of this present life.

If you are able to so believe then I expect you would feel much comforted and relieved from the fear of dying, or even of earthly pain, given the prospect of the ultimate residence in heaven.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2009)

Julia said:


> Ah, but garpaldog doesn't realise he's going to die.   It's my belief that faith in a God is largely a counterpoint to the fear of dying.
> 
> If you believe that adherence to worship of a God will ensure a life after this one, the transport of your soul if you like, then much of that fear of death is replaced by a picture of another existence, free from the worries of this present life.
> 
> If you are able to so believe then I expect you would feel much comforted and relieved from the fear of dying, or even of earthly pain, given the prospect of the ultimate residence in heaven.




Logical , maybe , but how do you know that garpaldog doesn't realise he is going to die.

He realises other things.

Like reward and punishment, as we do.

gg


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## Julia (14 August 2009)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Logical , maybe , but how do you know that garpaldog doesn't realise he is going to die.
> 
> He realises other things.
> 
> ...



Yes, because reward and punishment come within his sphere of experience.
Death does not.
If you were to die tomorrow (perish the thought) garpaldog would no doubt be distraught about your disappearance from his life but he would not know that you were dead.  He would expect you to come back.


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## wayneL (14 August 2009)

...but how do we know dogs don't believe in God?


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2009)

Julia said:


> Yes, because reward and punishment come within his sphere of experience.
> Death does not.
> If you were to die tomorrow (perish the thought) garpaldog would no doubt be distraught about your disappearance from his life but he would not know that you were dead.  He would expect you to come back.




Its called grief.

Humans experience it, denial etc.

Then they move on. Garpaldog is just smarter. He doesn't have a priest about his neck.

gg


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## wayneL (14 August 2009)

LMAO






Sorry, thought it was funny.

Carry on.


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## Julia (14 August 2009)

You're right, Wayne.  They're very cute.
The dogs were probably trained to do this with yummy food rewards.


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## son of baglimit (14 August 2009)

gooner said:


> God made me an atheist
> 
> Seriously though, how can you not be an atheist if you are reasonably intelligent?  Gods were invented by illiterate backward people to explain what they could not understand.  These people need to get with the 21st century.



i wasnt aware stupid/naive/gullible people only lived in the past. i think youll find these 'qualities' will always exist in people. education has made a difference, but the battle remains for those who are strictly aiming to please others (parents/grandparents) and therefore suggest to believe.



darkside said:


> You could just have easily have started this thread with , when did you stop believing in Santa or the easter bunny, it's no less ridiculous , in fact some may find it more plausable.



hey, dont bring santa & ol chockie throwing bunny into this....sacrilege.



Macquack said:


> Interestingly, the chances of an atheist being elected as the President of the USA (or PM of Australia) are very slim.
> 
> That tells me, there are a lot of fence sitters out there.



it would be interesting to see a candidate suggest they had no belief and see how they were treated, especially in the media. as for fence sitters, i reckon its just fear from the family of what ol aunt dottie would say if you admitted you didnt believe. hence they continue the charade. 

for me personally, dear ol mum sent me packing off to sunday school at age 7 (theres that age again) with 20c to drop in the plate. i thought 'sod this' and went to the milk bar and bought a pack of footy cards (stuart trott, john delahunty & lee adamson in the pack - good memory huh - sorry that only means something to victorians)



explod said:


> ........realised it was a wank created by men to control the populace.




and that says it all.....................


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## weird (14 August 2009)

Interesting comments guys, just some food for thought, my father grew up in a family of atheists, his father died young because the doctor had not properly sterilized the medical instruments to perform a simple operation.  As a result his mother fostered her 4 children out to many homes.

My father subsequently joined the army, and in tests was given a genius score, and subsequently (and the only one of 4, 1 unfortunately died as a navigator in WII) to get a university degree in medicine.

Coming from a background of atheists, he too, was the only one to become a Christian. Anyhow interesting hearing your stories too on how you became atheists.


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## trainspotter (14 August 2009)

Life deals you some sh!tty cards at times. Deal with it and move on. If it means you need some sort of deity to get through the low flying fog that resembles your life then so be it. If it means you jump out of bed and have an old fashioned crack at what you get served and don't complain then you are far the better for it.


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## Bobby (14 August 2009)

I was only a kid when I started bucking the religious poison that was being belted into me  .

Lucky for me I won't end life's journey as another manipulating bullsh*ter.

Those door knocking mindless god zombies run away freaked out after calling on me !    :badsmile:


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## Buckeroo (14 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> LMAO
> 
> Sorry, thought it was funny.
> 
> Carry on.




At least the dog will go to heaven - the rest of us will be in hot water


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## weird (14 August 2009)

On the contrary, while some may consider religion as 'controlling', think about propaganda machines, such as Nazism and Communism, that were more worried about those people not being controllable because of being religious.


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## Wysiwyg (15 August 2009)

In the past, homosapiens had a basic understanding of physics. They worshipped the sun, moon, stars, water etc. with an understanding of the power of such but no understanding of how they work. As time passed (over thousands of years) the human mind learned the workings of nature and accepted these workings as a function of existence.  

I dropped off the `there is a god` idea after reading and listening to many  interpretations. The idea lacked substance and integrity and in the physical world showed NO relevance or connection.


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## queenslander55 (15 August 2009)

I found God.


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## Dowdy (15 August 2009)

I became an atheist  because i believe in logic. The sky isn't blue because god made it that way....

I've been to church once, it's was the most brainwashing experience that i have ever seen.


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## chode84 (15 August 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3i6UwVkP6M

For anyone who hasn't seen Zeitgeist you will probably find the above link very interesting viewing. If you have a spare 10 minutes have a watch. Pretty much a theory explaining how Jesus and all other religious gods are a bunch of crap.

Starts to get good at the 3 min mark so hang in there.


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## bassmanpete (15 August 2009)

> On the contrary, while some may consider religion as 'controlling', think about propaganda machines, such as Nazism and Communism, that were more worried about those people not being controllable because of being religious.




I suggest you think about what you said there.


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## poguemahone (15 August 2009)

Being an irish family of catholics..My road to Atheism has been an awakening..

Alway's understood that not all the god's could be right God...So really had a 50/50 chance of being a God for me.

My first real WTF moment was Zeitgeist 2 years ago then watching 20 hours of Richard Dawkins Documentary's drove it home.

I wish I had the understanding in the teens instead of the mid thirties as I truly believe that some directions and choices made are purely from the brainwashing cycle of early religious childhood.

Anyway my kids will quickly learn to do what they want and will not be subject to the same cycle I was subject to.

I also have the task to Undo the two "godfather roles" for siblings progeny which will be an interesting test of family.

Just to add I gave evidence in court last month for a friend and they asked be how to be sworn in..Bible or No Bible.. Saying No Bible was a real FTW moment for me..

Pog > Out..


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## Prospector (15 August 2009)

When I was 12 I had to attend confirmation classes (Anglican).  I was sitting there watching all these young people saying things that were just beyond my capacity to accept as being valid.  And they were so serious about it all . So I started giggling.  I think I may have been kicked out.  Sigh.

However, I can see why believing in some kind of protector might be a good thing in times of stress.  But it can also be at such times that beliefs are tested.  John Travolta is apparently having a difficult time following the death of his son.

I have been required to 'confirm my truthfulness' so I took an affirmation instead.

It still surprises me when highly intelligent and normally logical people are devout worshippers.


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## wayneL (15 August 2009)

Just an observation. There is a gap in logic here that should be filled.

The logic here goes: 

Organised religion = Bullsh!t

Therefore God does not exist.

That is actually a non-sequitur.

If atheism is purportedly the result of logic, the logic is in fact missing.

I would be interested in some truly logical arguments for atheism.

(N.B. wayneL has no monopoly on logic and has many illogical beliefs as well )


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## MS+Tradesim (15 August 2009)

*Zeitgeist:*

About the 3min mark is when its errors become apparent. Compare to the reality of what we know about Horus (just for starters):
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/horus.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/horus.html
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/horus.htm

For a more general undermining of the material used in Zeitgeist:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html
http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/religions_christianity.html

And the deconstructing of specific asserted relationships regarding Jesus being based on previous gods (including all scholastic sources which the reasonable person might like to check):
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm

Zeitgeist is not an intelligent refutation of Christianity. Christians are considered gullible for believing _anything_ in the bible, but confirmation bias is apparent on both sides.

On the flip side, in threads like this it would be refreshing to see atheists reference guys like Walter Sinnott-Armstrong or William Rowe.

-------------------------------------------------

*Prospector,*

Have you read any highly intelligent and logical theists - Richard Swinburne, William Alston, Alvin Plantinga, Peter van Inwagen, William Lane Craig?

-------------------------------------------------

*WayneL*,

Wish you'd speak up more.


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## MS+Tradesim (15 August 2009)

WayneL,

After years of research, the only strong argument I have seen against traditional theism is William Rowe's articulation of the improbability of God based on gratuitous natural evil. Basically (and going off memory here):

Suppose a fawn suffers horrendous burns in a forest fire and lies in agony for some time before dying. There is no justifiable reason why an all knowing, all powerful benevolent God would allow this to occur. We know events like this occur. Probably, God does not exist.

I doubt I've done justice to his actual formulation so I would not attempt to argue against this particular recollection of it. If one were to agree, then at most, it is still not an argument for atheism _per se_, but a defeater for a particular conception of God. This one still troubles me.


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## wayneL (15 August 2009)

MS+Tradesim said:


> WayneL,
> 
> After years of research, the only strong argument I have seen against traditional theism is William Rowe's articulation of the improbability of God based on gratuitous natural evil. Basically (and going off memory here):
> 
> ...



That successfully brings into question the concept of an anthropomorphic God, because as human beings, we would act to prevent or end the fawn's suffering.

But if there is a God... or "whatever", he/she/it may not be either benevolent or malevolent at all, or even conscious in the human sense. From this thinking there are infinite possibilities of what God could be, or could not be.

My contention is that the only truly logical and scientific position is agnosticism. I'm not, I have beliefs, which is why I accept my own illogicallity, but I try to have an open mind and eschew dogma... of any colour.


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## Prospector (15 August 2009)

MS+Tradesim said:


> *Prospector,*
> 
> Have you read any highly intelligent and logical theists - Richard Swinburne, William Alston, Alvin Plantinga, Peter van Inwagen, William Lane Craig?
> 
> ------------------------------------------------.




Are you saying that people cannot make up their minds without having to refer to 'people of greater mental powers'?

And no, I havent even heard of any of these people.

I do believe that a higher order power exists, lets call it 'mother nature', or 'life force' (organic or inorganic)  I just think that organised religion has nothing to do with it.  And everything to do with the people who 'organise it'.


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## nunthewiser (15 August 2009)

i believe in atheiism just as much as i believe in god 

i am confused


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## Tink (15 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Just an observation. There is a gap in logic here that should be filled.
> 
> The logic here goes:
> 
> ...




Yep well said Wayne


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## Prospector (15 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Just an observation. There is a gap in logic here that should be filled.
> 
> The logic here goes:
> 
> ...




Most people here are not arguing about the reality or otherwise of organised religion, they are discussing whether or not there is a God and therefore whether they are atheist.  The method of worship is irrelevant.  I dont base my thoughts on my idea that organised religion is rubbish, and therefore, in your argument, there is no God; but rather that I do not believe in the existence of God, however worshipped, therefore I am an atheist.


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## Wysiwyg (15 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> I do believe that a higher order power exists, lets call it 'mother nature', or 'life force' (organic or inorganic)  I just think that organised religion has nothing to do with it.  And everything to do with the people who 'organise it'.




Aye, there be wisdom.


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## MS+Tradesim (15 August 2009)

Prospector said:


> Are you saying that people cannot make up their minds without having to refer to 'people of greater mental powers'?




No. I'm not saying that. Refer to your own statement:

_It still surprises me when highly intelligent and *normally* logical people are devout worshippers._

The inference I draw from this is that they are only logical in the parts of their lives that don't pertain to religion. Hence, my question, have you ever read any indepth writing that reasonably shows there is no logical disconnect involved, even if you don't agree with the thinking as such?

---------------------

*WayneL*,

I've come to a different conclusion but I can see and understand how two people viewing the same evidence/problem/question can come to opposing conclusions and both be logical and rational. This is not to say two opposing views can both be logically true, but that unlike say, some fields of mathematics (where things can be seen as self-evident), in other areas of life there is a probabilistic element and we consciously or sub-consciously weight evidence/criteria differently and arrive at different views.


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## bassmanpete (15 August 2009)

> The logic here goes:
> 
> Organised religion = Bullsh!t
> 
> Therefore God does not exist.




I don't agree, my logic says that organised religion is bulldust whether there is a god or not. I think it's fine for people to have their own spiritual beliefs (I used to have some at one time but have since rejected them), but when other individuals or groups tell you what you should/must believe that's the time to head in the opposite direction at a rapid rate of knots!


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## Krusty the Klown (15 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Just an observation. There is a gap in logic here that should be filled.
> 
> The logic here goes:
> 
> ...




The logic in your statement works _but,_ shouldn't the existence of anything be based on evidence. Theists believe in God without evidence, and agnostics believe God could exist but they don't have any evidence for or against, atheists don't believe in God because there is no evidence.

Put simply, a lack of evidence is proof of nothing.

I find it funny that different cultures all around the world believe in many different gods based on absolutely no evidence.

In terms of Christianity, the followers say a lack of evidence is a test of faith, but it was very different before the birth of Christ, God spoke to many people - which is evidence, but not now. 

Why not?

Is it too much to ask for just one tiny little piece of evidence????


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## Wysiwyg (15 August 2009)

Krusty the Klown said:


> Why not?
> 
> Is it too much to ask for just one tiny little piece of evidence????




Take away thinking and there is your answer.


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## bassmanpete (15 August 2009)

> Take away thinking and there is your answer.




Many years ago I was involved with a group of people, many of whom I thought were smarter than I was. They persuaded me to go along to their (evangelical) church. I went on a few occasions and had LOTS of questions. One day one of the top 'smarter-than-Is' said "Peter, you think too much" and gave me a quote from the bible that went something like "Trust not in your own understanding, but have faith in the Lord."

I'd done a lot of reading and other research and was coming to the conclusion that what I was hearing  from these people was wrong, but that was the end for me, it all became clear: stop thinking and accept whatever manure was being fed to me and I could be just like them. They plummeted in my opinion from being smarter than I was to being dumb, unthinking twits. If any believers reading this find that harsh, all I can say is tough! My self confidence took a boost and I thoroughly questioned everything from then on, a strategy that has saved me a LOT of money over the years when certain dodgy schemes/investments have come my way.


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## explod (15 August 2009)

> Krusty the Klown
> 
> but it was very different before the birth of Christ, God spoke to many people - which is evidence, but not now.




Now that is a big leap in taking what has been passed down as gospel or fact.    Who says he did?


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## Judd (15 August 2009)

We cannot even prove that we exist let alone God or the absence of such.

You know by the way that God, if he/she does actually exist, does not have a sense of humour.  Sitting on the throne before time began bored shietless.  Time commences and you go up to God and say, "Have you heard the one about...."  "I've heard it." That's the downside of being omnipotent.


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## Cartman (15 August 2009)

the way i see it theres not much difference between an atheist and a "godder"

atheist view: --- there is no proof of god so he/she/it must be a phony  

interesting that an atheist refutes the possibility that a superior life form just "evolved"/happened/whatever out of nothingness --- 

yet every morning we get up and check ourselves out in the mirror and what do we see?? --- a superior life form that just evolved/happened/whatever out of nothingness 

most atheists are lazy --- just like most godders are lazy ---- its a lot easier to dismiss possibilities than it is to search for them

humans have no right to assume they are the top of the chain -- any atheists out there should consider studying micro-biology and/or the possibilities of "String Theory"?? 

ps i'm no godder in the traditional sense, but am about as far from an atheist as you can get --- 

pps my best friend is an atheist lol  ---- sorry, thats my second best friend!! --   my best friend is an angel


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## Judd (15 August 2009)

Cartman said:


> yet every morning we get up and check ourselves out in the mirror and what do we see?? --- a superior life form that just evolved/happened/whatever out of nothingness




How can you be sure that we are not simply another being's dreams?  This self stuff gets heavy.  Me thinks that self needs coffee.


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## Calliope (15 August 2009)

Theism, like any other -ism, is something that has been instilled in us by someone else. As we mature we find it more easy to reject those -isms that don't make sense, or are not in our interests.


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## explod (15 August 2009)

> most atheists are lazy --- just like most godders are lazy ---- its a lot easier to dismiss possibilities than it is to search for them




If there is a possibility in the first place, but there is not until it is shown





> humans have no right to assume they are the top of the chain -- any atheists out there should consider studying micro-biology and/or the possibilities of "String Theory"??




Each individual human is entitled to assume as he/she likes, but assumptions are not facts.   

And "string theory"  we are not dealing in theory, absolute facts only, not fairy tales


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## wayneL (15 August 2009)

Krusty the Klown said:


> The logic in your statement works _but,_ shouldn't the existence of anything be based on evidence. Theists believe in God without evidence, and agnostics believe God could exist but they don't have any evidence for or against, atheists don't believe in God because there is no evidence.
> 
> Put simply, a lack of evidence is proof of nothing.
> 
> ...



That is a fine piece of logic for agnosticism.

But it is not a logic that justifies atheism.


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## Cartman (15 August 2009)

explod said:


> If there is a possibility in the first place, but there is not until it is shown





possibilities are not shown ---- they are endless ----- and even when a possibility appears to have been exhausted, there is every chance that the conclusion is in fact incorrect --

biggest mistake humans make in my opinion is putting limits on possibilities !!



explod said:


> Each individual human is entitled to assume as he/she likes, but assumptions are not facts.




we actually agree on this one Explod   ---- 




explod said:


> And "string theory"  we are not dealing in theory, absolute facts only, not fairy tales




mmm --- ok --- absolute facts ---- so how do you get from theory to fact?

are these all fairy tales ? :-

theory of evolution --

quantum theory --

big bang theory --

chaos theory --

atomic theory --

cell theory --

etc etc ---

i'm not looking for an argument, but people should open their minds to possibilities ---

for example --- Gold will hit $865 b4 it hits $1,010  ---- that "theory" may interest you specifically


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## explod (15 August 2009)

> possibilities are not shown ---- they are endless ----- and even when a possibility appears to have been exhausted, there is every chance that the conclusion is in fact incorrect --
> 
> biggest mistake humans make in my opinion is putting limits on possibilities !!




Possibility starts with some clue, but untill that clue is confirmed by some facts it does not realise existance.   Remember as a youth reading metaphysics on the potential of things, the potential of a rock is eg. sand or with physical assistance a building, but it is never going to breathe.

Sensible humans require the points of proof.



> mmm --- ok --- absolute facts ---- so how do you get from theory to fact?




Theory grows from idea, the idea is tested by reasoning, reasoning has to make sense, sense requires logical understandble proof, by evidence/facts


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## weird (16 August 2009)

Joke,

An atheist buys an ancient lamp at an auction, takes it home, and begins to polish it. Suddenly, a genie appears, and says, “I’ll grant you three wishes, Master.” The atheist says, “I wish I could believe in you.” The genie snaps his fingers, and suddenly the atheist believes in him. The atheist says, “Wow. I wish all atheists would believe this.” The genie snaps his fingers again, and suddenly atheists all over the world begin to believe in genies. “What about your third wish?” asks the genie. “Well,” says the atheist, “I wish for a billion dollars.” The genie snaps his fingers for a third time, but nothing happens. “What’s wrong?” asks the atheist. The genie shrugs and says, “Just because you believe in me, doesn’t necessarilymean that I really exist.”


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## kgee (16 August 2009)

My conversion (?) kind of worked backwards...I couldn't get my head around the "devil...hell and eternal damnation" and if you can't believe in him then you cant really believe in God...well a christian one anyway


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## It's Snake Pliskin (16 August 2009)

Happy said:


> God thing was worked around with 1065 replies so far, so I will refrain from adding another slant on the issue there.
> However I wander how does it happen that a person is/becomes an atheist?
> 
> As 8 years old bloke asked my father if there is crowd in the sky with all the gods?
> At the time I read books about Native American gods, ancient Egypt gods, gods in India, Japan.



Happy,

It was the realisation with a tint of nature that helped stipulalte the insanity of not obeying a simple unindoctrinated existence.


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## nunthewiser (16 August 2009)

wonders why everyone reckons there god is the only god .... why not pinch all the bits you like from all the gods and make a real cool one


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## Prospector (16 August 2009)

Another epiphany  for me, which I recalled when I saw kgee's post, was attending a Christening and the Anglican Minister banged on about how evil babies were and that the Baptism was a cleansing for them!   Nothing like a bit of hysteria to keep the masses coming to Church.


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## lindsayf (16 August 2009)

What goes on in our minds about how we undestand ouselves and our world is amazing stuff.

"deal with it and move on"  strikes a chord.

This is earth as seen from Mars...thats you just to the left.


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## Wysiwyg (16 August 2009)

lindsayf said:


> This is earth as seen from Mars...thats you just to the left.




I like the insignificance jolt. 

A part of the human mind function is lying. It is a basic survival function used by all to defend and attack though is used more so to control others for personal and group gain.


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## Cartman (16 August 2009)

lindsayf said:


> What goes on in our minds about how we undestand ouselves and our world is amazing stuff.




just following on from that theme, heres a little scenario for those who have trouble thinking outside the circle   ---


Werner Arber and his mates wake up one morning and exclaim "we can now permanently stop the degeneration of human DNA from viral attack" etc etc ----

Werner gets on the blower to Jack Szostak and his mates who can now concoct cell membranes out of fatty acids and nucleotides at will ---- hell, they'll even clone your mother in law --- too easy !!

The boyz have an idea ----  They borrow a space rocket from Nassa (with Obamas permission of course) --- 

they email John Archibald Wheeler; Johnno who recently flew to Mars for the weekend through a Wormhole has now perfected space travel through his studies of nuclear fission and the S-matrix 

They set up a conglomeration of test tubes with various adaptations of cloned molecular constituents resembling various life forms on earth ---- bung them on the rocket, and fire the rocket to *Planet X* in a distant galaxy via an available wormhole -- (bit like Noahs ark on a galactic scale )

The rocket lands in a distant galactic swamp, where the various cloned lifeforms begin to reproduce and "evolve" ---

a few thousand years later, species have evolved, chaos has become ordered through natural selection and a "society" has been born --- yay!!


The higher life forms (which were created in our image ) start to question where they came from --- we occasionally send the odd "hint" to their planet to indicate that they are not the only life form in the universe --- after all, its pretty easy to get dejected about your existence when your friends are all dying from strange diseases that seem to appear out of nowhere !!

Here on earth we continue to monitor our "experiment", but basically keep our distance --- we drop the odd new viral plague on Planet X so the higher life forms can hopefully learn how to look after themselves and "their" world --- 

As they come to understand and comprehend the complexity of life, *many* start to assume ownership of this knowledge cause it makes them feel superior --  (atheistic stance)

Many others simply cant or wont try to fathom the complexities and conclude "god did it"  (Godders stance)

In the above scenario ---- Werner Arber, Jack Szostak and John Archibald Wheeler will in fact collectively BE *"God"* to many of the inhabitants of Planet X  !! ---- 

as scientists get closer to undiscovered truths (stopping/reversing disease and ageing ), perhaps man will become a god to his own galactic experiments --- food for thought perhaps (chew well b4 swallowing!! ) 

now back to my wormhole :aliena:


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## stocksontheblock (16 August 2009)

Common sense!


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## glenn_r (16 August 2009)

Hmmm as an agnostic my thoughts are God to some people would be similar to the Holy Grail of trading, it's all in your head...


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## Happy (16 August 2009)

If we reject atheism we are left with another question, which god is real?


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## noirua (16 August 2009)

Macquack said:


> Interestingly, the chances of an atheist being elected as the President of the USA (or PM of Australia) are very slim.
> 
> That tells me, there are a lot of fence sitters out there.




Depends how good an actor or liar a future President can be. 

A head of a very religious order reportedly said he had stopped believing in God very many years before.  In fact before he was elevated to head the order, and that was known by several who appointed him, maybe even the Pope at that time.  He was a brilliant man and the best person to do the job, as the religious part may not have been as important as the work the order carried out. Same for a President of America or any President or leader?
There was a film made about this but I can't remember the name of it or the finer details.


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## wayneL (16 August 2009)

Happy said:


> If we reject atheism we are left with another question, which god is real?




One can reject atheism without believing in God. One can simple be agnostic.

As to which God is real? Mine, and if you don't believe it I will kill you!!  (jk)

Seriously, if a God/whatever exists, and he/she/it wanted us to know exactly what it looked like it would have done so. 

If we reject all anthropomorphic Gods on the basis of what is discussed in this thread, there becomes a massive void of ideas... or a massive infinity of ideas, depending on ones imagination.

In other words, who the hell knows. My guess is (and I'm not an atheist) NONE!


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## MRC & Co (16 August 2009)

Cartman said:


> just following on from that theme, heres a little scenario for those who have trouble thinking outside the circle   ---
> 
> 
> Werner Arber and his mates wake up one morning and exclaim "we can now permanently stop the degeneration of human DNA from viral attack" etc etc ----
> ...




LOL, you crack me up C-man.


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## MRC & Co (16 August 2009)

Cartman said:


> and/or the possibilities of "String Theory"??




Can you explain that to me C-man?   Trying to grasp it does my head in!


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## explod (16 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> One can reject atheism without believing in God. One can simple be agnostic.
> 
> As to which God is real? Mine, and if you don't believe it I will kill you!!  (jk)
> 
> ...




"Know" is an interesting point,  we know what we see, hear and feel, with scepticism what we are told or read.   From my view I "know" that a higher spirit has not breached these lines.


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## wayneL (16 August 2009)

explod said:


> "Know" is an interesting point,  we know what we see, hear and feel, with scepticism what we are told or read.   From my view I "know" that a higher spirit has not breached these lines.



I've had the opposite experience. But it might have been that mushroom omelette I had, dunno.


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## trainspotter (16 August 2009)

The easiest way to explain this is to go and hire out the movie "Horton hears a who!" or read the Dr Seuss book of the same name. It will ALL become very clear when you have finished and I guarantee you will be able to relate to the characters.


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## MRC & Co (16 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Just an observation. There is a gap in logic here that should be filled.
> 
> The logic here goes:
> 
> ...




Exactly.

Seems most logical to me.

I had to go to church twice a week for most of my childhood, up until about the age of 12, but just can't believe in a man made book.

Though, I choose to believe there is some kind of god out here, but that is about as far as I will guess.  

Some interesting comments though, this is a good thread.


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## Bobby (16 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> who the hell knows. My guess is (and I'm not an atheist) NONE!




Hey Wayne , like your mentality on most things but as your not an atheist can you expand on what makes you a fence sitter  
Have you done any study regarding cosmology ?


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