# A CFD noob story :)



## chriscarman (9 April 2010)

Hi All

This is my first post on the forum and I apologise in advance for my share-noobness 

I came here as a direct result of attending one of John Giaans (Knowledgesource) seminars where Jules Dawson presented an intro / marketing opportunity related to CFD's.

I was very impressed on the day with the presentation made by Jules - he was humorous, interesting, interacted with the audience well and was easy to understand. 

In fact I was tempted to purchase his $5999.00 package and would have except for the fact that 1) i am the original sceptic and 2) i know next to nothing about the sharemarket (which is why i have never previously traded shares despite being interested in the market )

Anyway, the thing that interested me about Jules's presentation was the simplicity of the system shown for trading CFD's. There were no claims that this was the "money tree" - we were shown that you could / would take losses but that overall if we followed the "system" we would make money.

Which brings me to this forum 
I, being the sceptic as mentioned before, and also being someone who likes to do a lot of research before i jump in and start drowning, was surfing the net looking for information on the sharemarket and in particular, CFD trading / systems.

Id like to firstly say that you guys have a whole pile of extremely knowledgeable people here and i stand in awe of your expertise and i would like to express my thanks to those of you that share said expertise. 

Reading posts in this forum for the last 4 hours however has only reinforced my opinion that I know NOTHING about shares, nothing about CFD's or options or that most people lose money and that the only real winners are the brokers. 

In fact... I dont even know what i dont know 

You guys have completely scared me away from the idea of trading shares hehe

Anyway, back to the subject at hand - Jules did make the comment that he did not usually run seminars and that quote "he makes his money from trading, not running seminars". He also claimed to be fully licensed for trading, giving financial advice etc and did quote the appropriate numbers.
Apparently he has a business down there in Byron or Coffs where he supports his clients, software packages etc. 

I have no comment on the efficacy of these systems or his program etc, but merely relay information i received at the seminar.

An interesting note - at the end of the seminar I went to enquire as to wether or not he would be running any further seminars at a later date (so that my wife could attend to hear and make an informed decision on wether to purchase). 

The only person available to talk to me was John Giaan himself... I was advised that no, Jules doesnt do many seminars but quote "are'nt you man enough to make this decision on your own? why do you need your wifes approval?"

Needless to say this 1970's used car approach to selling did not work with me and I provided guidance to Mr Giaan accordingly 

I would love to be proved wrong as it were and have someone confirm that these simple systems can/do work, but I think the old adage applies here - if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably isnt.

Meanwhile i will continue to read and absorb knowledge from all you erudite traders and maybe one day i will have garnered enough knowledge to actually make a trade. 

Till then I will continue with my ever growing property portfolio which happens to be something i DO know something about 

regards

Chris


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## nomore4s (9 April 2010)

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum.

Take your time before stepping into the world of trading as it will save you a lot of heartache and probably money. It is very easy to lose money if you don't know/understand what you are doing especially with options & CFD's.

Here is a link to a thread on Jules Dawson.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10067&highlight=Jules+Dawson

Good luck


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## chriscarman (9 April 2010)

Hi Nomore4s

Yes i did see that thread but i figured that the OP was specifically talking about Jules Dawson trading options rather than CFD's - 

And cheers for the advice - though as i said in my post i wont be trading any time soon and certainly not with out a lot more research first


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## nomore4s (9 April 2010)

For someone who doesn't do many seminars he certainly seems to be busy running them



neritoon said:


> hey, thanks for the heads up! really appreciate it, timely 'cos I was going to attend one of his seminars next wk Tue 30th in Syd, but wanted to check him out first before attending... I also had a look at his website and found the exact same thing you did - out of date seminars - not good if you want to attract new clients, and based on yr experience, he's a class act! Thanks for the info - definitely cancelling.....






Paulo30 said:


> This thread saved me a wasted day in attending his intro seminar.. I like to check out some speakers, and hadn't heard of him, but besides looking at his website, others' experiences here stopped me from going.
> 
> On a side point, you just have to check out who is marketing this guy.. the usual notorious Internet type "Become a millionaire overnight" jobs.. (e.g. Knowledge Source - Jon Giaan).


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## Wysiwyg (9 April 2010)

> *Anyway, the thing that interested me about Jules's presentation was* *the simplicity of the system shown for trading CFD's.* There were no claims that this was the "money tree" - we were shown that you could / would take losses but that overall if we followed the "system" we would make money.



Greetings. Can you give us some explanation of the system please?


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## Tukker (9 April 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Greetings. Can you give us some explanation of the system please?



Isn't this a breech of copywrite?  


I run with a similar story, knew nothing about trading but had a keen interest.  I did the hometrader course for about 4Gs 6 years ago as a fast track to the gist of things. I found the information very helpful as a beginner and unobtrusive enough to fit what i was interested in.

I designed a small basic system, and paper traded for 2 years. Sometimes failing, sometimes winning, all the time changing the way i traded, and growing more technically/emotionally wiser along the way.

Although the system never made me a huge amount of money, i didn't end up with nothing.  I retained most of my original capitol and survived the GFC relatively well.

I would say that the same lessons can be learned from a book, or just using this forum for a fraction of the price, but for me at the time, a course just felt better.  

To this day i retain my system trading, i don't pay anyone anything for it, and i utilize this forum every day to learn more on technical analysis.  

I believe that system trading on paper (i.e. no real money used) is a great entry level idea.  After that, develop your own style, what you feel comfortable doing, and give it a go.  

CFD's i wouldn't recommend unless you only have a small initial capitol (</=$5000), and be prepared to loose it all very fast.

Don't be afraid of the markets, if you play by their rules you can make money, just maybe not the amount you wanted to 

Hope this helps.


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## Wysiwyg (9 April 2010)

Tukker said:


> Isn't this a breech of copywrite?



Not the complete written system, just the type of system in general. 

On a side note;  copywrite is spelled copyright and loose is spelled lose. 

Oh and breech is spelled breach in this instance.


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## georgey (9 April 2010)

There is so much money to be made in the markets so why would one
run seminars instead of spending their time trading - simple,
because they can't, or it's too risky, much easier to take money
off gullibles.
And if one is going to spend thousands on a system only to paper
trade for 2 years, what a waste of money when one could do that on
their own.
Personally I think CFD's are fine for a learner, paper trade for a while,
not 2 yrs, then simply trade 1 contract, possibly for a long time and
very gradually increase the size as profits accrue. You learn so much
actually trading, even 1 lot, than you can on paper.
I think profits and losses should be listed as points gained or lost
otherwise one can be up 30 pts and think 'oh it's only $30, I'll let
it run' when one would not do that with larger size, so trade as if you
were bigger size to begin with.


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## dutchie (9 April 2010)

Hi Chris

Welcome to ASF.

Thanks for sharing your story. Your healthy scepticism has probably saved you $6k.

The incident regarding getting a second opinion from your wife and the salesperson comment - ""are'nt you man enough to make this decision on your own? why do you need your wifes approval?"" should alone send out loud alarm bells (take note other noobs) and your response to it was excellent.

I don't know whether the program/system they were trying to sign you up for is any good or not but I congratulate you on your response so far.

So all you noobs reading this thread - 

the holy grail of trading as far as I am concerned is

Don't buy anything!    (I don't like shouting but this should be in big capitals and in red )

You can get everything you need to know about trading from the internet for FREE!

Just trolling through this site will get you well and truly started on the road of trading knowledge.

There are plenty of other sites that you can glean little bits of knowledge that will add to your overall education.

Do this for at least a year (don't worry the market will still be there offering the same opportunities to make money as there are now).

After a year or so you will maybe have enough knowledge to make a decision to part with some of your hard earned to help you make money in the market.

There are some good people/systems/programs out there (you can find them here too). But until you can make an informed decision yourself about what is good and what is not (scams etc) and not rely on someone else's opinion you are not ready.

So don't be tempted  - there are no shortcuts - put the time in!

You will be rewarded in the end.

Cheers

dutchie


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## KellyB (9 April 2010)

Lucky you didn't fork out 6 grand Chris ... check this link out from Jules Dawson own website 

ww.julecorp.com/wealthwisdomcfdworkshop.htm 

which refers to the same course last month he ran in QLD for just $ 1987 ... where's the consistency? 

It would seem from Jules Dawson website that he actually does run seminars all the time and makes his living from doing so. Anyone whose website promotes trading ZFX in 2010 when that stock merged with Oxiana how many years ago? is questionable as to whether they actually make money from trading or from simply from duping gullible people. 

I think we're in the best place right here!


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## LKR (9 April 2010)

georgey said:


> Personally I think CFD's are fine for a learner, paper trade for a while,
> not 2 yrs, then simply trade 1 contract, possibly for a long time and
> very gradually increase the size as profits accrue. You learn so much
> actually trading, even 1 lot, than you can on paper.
> ...




Thats fine if you want to trade futures or currencies, though the bucket shops you trade against will make it  very difficult for you.

Secondly, If you want to trade shares you cannot possibly make small trades and come out on top. The brokerage will kill you. Paper trading is your freind. It is very boring and tedious, but it is better to trial and error with fake money then real money.

You would want to start with a minimum of 1$0000 for CFDS, risking 2% per trade, E.G $200 max risk per trade. You must know how to use the leverage correctly, or it will be not only accelerated gain but accelerated loss.

If i was you i would get started on reading books about risk and money management, widely overlooked and of great importance.


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## chriscarman (9 April 2010)

Hi all again

Firstly thanks for the kind comments - i agree that scepticism has been my saviour in this case

As i noted though, you guys have helped me realise just how complicated the whole thing is and by default, how much i just dont know hehe

Someone asked if i could outline some of what Jules was promoting - since the weekend seminar was free (450 or so attended) and since i believe that the essential pieces of his promotion is already up on youtube, i have no reason not to provide that outline here (Correct me if i am wrong )

Ok so the first thing he did was to teach us his "first" fundamental for a Medium Term Strategy and basically he has a program of some kind that lists all the shares (ASX top 200 only from memory) and if any of the shares met ALL of the following criteria:

1) Share price currently above the 60 day Moving Average line
2) 60 day moving average has been rising for past 3 months
3) Share price has been rising for past 3 months

Then we would buy according to the guidelines (only ever invest 1/5th of your trading pool)

The "Short term CFD trading" strategy was as follows (and short was between 1 and 7 days with multiple opportunities each day)

Going Long needed all of the following criteria before you bought:

1) Trend Indicator must be above zero
2) Fast moving average must be above Slow Moving Average
3) Entry / Exit indicator must be above zero
4) Entry / Exit indicator must be pointing up

And exit when the entry/exit indicator points down

Going Short needed all the following:

1) Trend indicator must be below zero
2) Fast moving average must be below Slow Moving Average
3) Entry / Exit Indicator must be below zero
4) Entry / Exit Indicator must be pointing down

And exit when the Entry / Exit indicator points up.

Basically he was recommending a cash pool of $20000.00, only investing 1/5th of that into any one trade, setting conservative stop loss thingies and having access to their firm as mentors for the first year.

As noted previously, Jules never claimed you would profit on all trades but that if you followed the system exactly you would make a profit most often.

I have to say that to me, being the complete share noob, the simplicity of the system seems attractive along with the ongoing help they promised.

I look forward to seeing the comments from you gurus about this one (and by default reinforcing how much i dont know hehe)

regards

Chris


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## Wysiwyg (9 April 2010)

chriscarman said:


> Hi all again
> 
> Firstly thanks for the kind comments - i agree that scepticism has been my saviour in this case
> regards
> Chris




Thanks immensely for that overview. I simply wanted to compare it to the stage I am at with my market education.


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## brty (9 April 2010)

chriscarman,



> and have someone confirm that these simple systems can/do work




This is the weakness with so many newbees, you want someone else to confirm something. Do the research yourself, understand for yourself what works and what doesn't. Other peoples opinions matter nought.

Forget about 'Jules'. Look to find something that works for you.

brty


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## Tukker (10 April 2010)

Wysiwyg said:


> Not the complete written system, just the type of system in general.
> 
> On a side note;  copywrite is spelled copyright and loose is spelled lose.
> 
> Oh and breech is spelled breach in this instance.





Lol owned. That's what i get for using msn.  *slaps self*


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## chriscarman (10 April 2010)

With all due respect brty, i thought that this was the exact purpose of the forum? To throw out ideas, debate their relative merits and drawbacks etc in a community of like minded individuals?

Certainly after reading posts by A/Tech and others, there seems to be a fair old debate on various styles of technical analysis.

Is my post immune to discussion of the strategy proposed by Jules, merely because of my self confessed noobness?


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## Trembling Hand (10 April 2010)

chriscarman said:


> Ok so the first thing he did was to teach us his "first" fundamental for a Medium Term Strategy and basically he has a program of some kind that lists all the shares (ASX top 200 only from memory) and if any of the shares met ALL of the following criteria:
> 
> 1) Share price currently above the 60 day Moving Average line
> 2) 60 day moving average has been rising for past 3 months
> ...




There wouldn't be a Newbie who hasn't been sucked into the simplicity of a magic Moving Average. And by newbie I mean green as a bean, wet as a rain shower.

That "system" sucks!! Slow late and no way of achieving a small R value. Basically you need a roaring bull to make that work. ie it doesn't work.

By the way. 20% capital in each Trade on CFDs!!!


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## waza1960 (10 April 2010)

> the holy grail of trading as far as I am concerned is
> 
> Don't buy anything! (I don't like shouting but this should be in big capitals and in red )



Duchie your post contains good advise for newbies with the except of the above point IMO .
While this approach of buying nothing may work for you I don't think you should necessarily disscourage newbies from doing so.
Becoming a Trader  has being compared to lots of professional careers i.e. Doctor,Solicitor etc in terms of commitment and study to obtain mastery of such  and I strongly believe this to be the case.
Such professional people don't learn for free over the internet they need a learning structure to achieve their goals .
It is a pity that there is a scarcity of good Courses free of marketing which can teach the essientials of trading.


> I was very impressed on the day with the presentation made by Jules - he was humorous, interesting, interacted with the audience well and was easy to understand.



I have done some of Jules  courses  over the  years  and I agree with the above comment . You could do worse than start with his course because apart from the marketing aspect which I don't like he doesn't make extravagent promises and his course contains a lot of basic Technical analysis and market information which is valuable.


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## waza1960 (10 April 2010)

> There wouldn't be a Newbie who hasn't been sucked into the simplicity of a magic Moving Average. And by newbie I mean green as a bean, wet as a rain shower.
> 
> That "system" sucks!! Slow late and no way of achieving a small R value. Basically you need a roaring bull to make that work. ie it doesn't work.
> 
> By the way. 20% capital in each Trade on CFDs!!!



As usual TH a succinct summary and totally agree.
As far as Jules' course and others go don't pay money to do them expecting to make money following that system. 
Assess them for their educational Value and content you relate to.


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## WaveSurfer (10 April 2010)

chriscarman said:


> ...I have to say that to me, being the complete share noob, the simplicity of the system seems attractive along with the ongoing help they promised...




Congrats on your inner-scepticism Chris. Looks like you've saved yourself a few bob.

Here's a simpler system. Toss a coin. Heads go long, tails go short :

Would probably be more profitable too. Heheheh

Good luck on your journey mate.


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## chriscarman (11 April 2010)

Julia - in case you didnt get the message (it rejected me because i havent posted enough as yet ) -thanks!

(though my PM said it better hehe)

regards

Chris


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## Client (11 April 2010)

> By the way. 20% capital in each Trade on CFDs!!!



Yeah, that's too many. I heard about 10% of the whole capital (maximum) and about 2-3% maximum loss in each trade.


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## SmellyTerror (12 April 2010)

brty said:


> This is the weakness with so many newbees, you want someone else to confirm something. Do the research yourself, understand for yourself what works and what doesn't. Other peoples opinions matter nought.





To expand: get this book (there are others, of course, but Howard is awesome).

That'll teach you how to *test* any idea someone gives you, or that you have yourself. If systems are what you like, this is what you need to get into.

No more taking people's word for it. You can try it yourself.


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## globaltr (4 October 2012)

Hi,

If your thinking of trading or attempting to apply someone elses strategy to the equities markets ASX/ International it would make sense to firstly understand your tolerance to risk.  The presenter's of these seminars have no idea of your risk tolerance and will guard themselves with disclaimer's and request you sign them prior to commiting your money to their strategy.

*Here's something to help you*
Contact your nearest reputable investment / financial advisor who will (for FREE) provide you a 1 hour consultation and provide you an understanding of your risk tolerance to investing.  When you know your risk tolerance you will have a good understanding if the strategy the presenter is offerring fits. Much better use of your time than sitting in a seminar.

If you have a High Risk tolerance - meaning commitment of investing approx > 70% - < 90% of your capital into the equities market ASX and international then I would look at long term as opposed to short term trading (in and out of the market). There has been many a study published by reputable companies and associations i.e.  Morningstar, Finsia, and the AFA that detail that over the long term if you are to trade on a short term basis with CFDs, Options Forex etc then you are likely to break even or lose money.  

I have worked for many of the larger institutional banks as an Analyst and behind the scenes it is a regimented environmment with next to zero human decision making required when entering and exiting the market on a trade.  

There are an increasing number of structured investment products delivered by the banks that utilise CFDs, Forex, and Options as part of their overall strategy.  Instead of spending your money on courses and learning the many strategies for trading yourself why not utilise good advisors (do your homework and interview many) and understand the investment products and how they can be used to assist you in your wealth creation.

Thanks

Anthony Manly


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## >Apocalypto< (8 October 2012)

globaltr said:


> Hi,
> 
> If your thinking of trading or attempting to apply someone elses strategy to the equities markets ASX/ International it would make sense to firstly understand your tolerance to risk.  The presenter's of these seminars have no idea of your risk tolerance and will guard themselves with disclaimer's and request you sign them prior to commiting your money to their strategy.




Thread's over two years old champ.


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## cbc (8 November 2012)

Hi Chris,  (same name as me)

Simply look up 

"MARGIN"  or "FINANCIAL MARGIN"

Then see if you are still interested


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