# Australian economy heading for meltdown!



## numbercruncher (23 January 2009)

Seems we may be barelling down on our date with destiny in the Banana republic !

The Good readership of ASF would of course long known this and planned accordingly ??



> Australian economy heading for meltdown, warns Access Economics






> AUSTRALIA'S economy will "unwind scarily fast" this year with Wayne Swan forced to choose between middle-class welfare and industry bailouts, a report claims.
> 
> Leading economic forecaster Access Economics warns in its quarterly Business Outlook, released today, that the nation's economic boom will unravel , halving corporate profits, costing more than 300,000 people their jobs and blowing out the current account deficit to more than $100 billion.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24930554-953,00.html

I wonder will Middle class welfare cop it ? Swany need that couple of grand back he recently sent me ?..... its still sitting idle if he does


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## So_Cynical (23 January 2009)

No need to worry...Kevin has a plan.

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24946546-462,00.html

_Rudd Government moves to rescue Australian businesses

The federal Government could soon become lender of last resort to Australian 
businesses, with the creation of a multi-billion-dollar scheme partly funded 
through the sale of commonwealth bonds.

The emergency measure is considered necessary to allow some of Australia's 
biggest companies to roll over existing credit facilities and avert a new wave 
of layoffs and a further plunge in business and consumer confidence....etc._


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## nomore4s (23 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> Swany need that couple of grand back he recently sent me ?..... its still sitting idle if he does




Just make sure you charge him interest


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## Stormin_Norman (23 January 2009)

bring back keating.


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## wayneL (23 January 2009)

> AUSTRALIA'S economy will "unwind scarily fast" this year with Wayne Swan forced to choose between middle-class bribery and corporate class bribery, a report claims.




Corrected for accuracy.


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## Absolutely (23 January 2009)

I work in resources, prvivate and public civil infrastructure Australia wide. I am a business development manager. Right now I have to say I am not seeeing this massive slow down. On the contrary, we came off a record turnover last year and have brought in to this year a record carryover and are already building on our record and robust order book. Mining continues to be our dominant sector. The level of enquiries if anything is increasing. I have no time to scratch myself at work just trying to meet the level of demand.

Something is not right here. The story we see in the media does not gel with the massive infrastructure programs either underway or about to get underway in both the public and private sectors I deal in.


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## numbercruncher (23 January 2009)

Hiya Absolutely ....


I think the reason you havnt seen it yet is because it hasnt happened (much) yet ...


The big tip is that it will "unwind scarily fast" this year ..


Heaps of mining Industry job losses just this past few days, thousands.


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## wayneL (23 January 2009)

Absolutely said:


> I work in resources, prvivate and public civil infrastructure Australia wide. I am a business development manager. Right now I have to say I am not seeeing this massive slow down. On the contrary, we came off a record turnover last year and have brought in to this year a record carryover and are already building on our record and robust order book. Mining continues to be our dominant sector. The level of enquiries if anything is increasing. I have no time to scratch myself at work just trying to meet the level of demand.
> 
> Something is not right here. The story we see in the media does not gel with the massive infrastructure programs either underway or about to get underway in both the public and private sectors I deal in.



Perhaps infrastructure lags reality?


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## Glen48 (23 January 2009)

If Rudd and co. want to spend money they should be getting the High speed broad band up running by spending money in country towns putting up towers, workers ,hire equipment etc the money is going directly where it is needed but first we need a big fight and a few court cases and some time soon like 10 yrs it will be under way and we will be back to using jam tins on a piece of string.


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## pacestick (23 January 2009)

I'm in retail and our sales  are up about 8% nationally for January I expect that to unwind a little  in the next week


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## Aussiejeff (23 January 2009)

pacestick said:


> *I'm in retail* and our sales  are up about 8% nationally for January I expect that to unwind a little  in the next week




Ummm. "Retail" covers an awfully wide spectrum of goods and services. It depends on which area of "retail" you primarily deal in as to whether you are feeling the pinch (or worse, a knockout punch) yet.  

So, which is it?

Retail food?
Retail clothing?
Retail electronics?
Retail jewellry?
Retail automotive?
Retail hardware?
Retail discounter?

I'd guess that food and hardware stores are doing relatively pretty well atm. Jewellry and automotive maybe not so good, depending on location of shop and surrounding demographic. Discounters? Well, we know where they are heading.

I get the impression a lot of Aussies are reading about the "big picture" in the media etc. Yet many seem to be lulled by a false sense of security in that their businesses are sitting in micro-economies at the outer edge of the toxic cesspool, where the water is a bit sweeter. 

However, in the end that "plus" factor might not help much, since a REALLY BIG boulder has been tossed into the middle of that cesspool. Those at the deep end have gone under the tsunami real quick - but even those on the outer "safer" edges will eventually feel the effect of the rapidly expanding "circles of pain", which will eventually wash over everyone to some degree.

IMO


aj


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## numbercruncher (23 January 2009)

Yes and sales up (perhaps because of massive discounting?) doesnt always translate into profits up just take the company behind bargain retailers Go-Lo, Crazy Clark's and Sam's Warehouse just fallen into receivership potentially costing 2700 jobs .....


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## Aussiejeff (23 January 2009)

So_Cynical said:


> No need to worry...Kevin has a plan.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24946546-462,00.html
> 
> ...




How quickly they forget that *"Federal Government" = "Citizens of Australia"*. They are supposed to govern "on our behalf" - though you would take THAT with a big pinch of Cynical Salts.

So, in effect KRudd & Co. are saying WE, the PEOPLE will effectively become the "lenders of last resort" to BAIL OUT many companies and businesses, many of which may NOT deserve to be bailed out. 

Yet KRudd & Co. WILL DO SO, regardless of whether the citizens of Australia feel it is fair or just, simply because they are now in a blind panic to save thgeir lobbying business mates and supporters from a crash in their luxuriant lifestyles. 

Here's what I think would be 3 better ideas to start with. 

(a) Since cushy, executive Government jobs are the least at risk in this unfolding scenario, how about ALL Federal, State & Local Government ministers and executives agree to slash their perks & incomes by 25% starting next month? LEAD BY EXAMPLE!

(b) STOP promising endless and unlimited financial support to big businesses and banks. This is a CORRUPT and UNFAIR policy - especially to the 100's of 1,000's of small & medium business owners and their MILLIONS of employees - many of whom will face the dole queue because a BIG business has been favoured with a bail out over their smaller one.

(c) Bail outs should only be considered on MERIT - NOT size. ie: Is the business more productive? Does the business have VERY GOOD potential for future productivity IF it is bailed out etc... etc...



aj


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## moXJO (23 January 2009)

Absolutely said:


> I work in resources, prvivate and public civil infrastructure Australia wide. I am a business development manager. Right now I have to say I am not seeeing this massive slow down. On the contrary, we came off a record turnover last year and have brought in to this year a record carryover and are already building on our record and robust order book. Mining continues to be our dominant sector. The level of enquiries if anything is increasing. I have no time to scratch myself at work just trying to meet the level of demand.
> 
> Something is not right here. The story we see in the media does not gel with the massive infrastructure programs either underway or about to get underway in both the public and private sectors I deal in.




It’s a very hard thing to pick. I was saying the same thing a few months back. I was flat out with work (construction) till oct-nov 2008. But now things have slowed down. We have a lot of quotes out there but now they are very slow to come back. A lot of the time we are beaten on price by a substantial amount. Others I know are going out of business. And a lot of different companies that were affected before us are folding, after hanging on as long as they could.
This whole process is very slow moving. It nibbles at each sector until they collapse. Which in turn then affects those sectors that service them and so on. It "moving slowly" is probably the worst thing that can happen As you do not even realize there is a problem until it’s too late. If you keep a good stock of cash and low debt then you should be fine.

It’s still a bit of a mixed bag, infrastructure should boom given govt stimulus.


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## MrBurns (23 January 2009)

> Rudd Government moves to rescue Australian businesses
> 
> The federal Government could soon become lender of last resort to Australian
> businesses, with the creation of a multi-billion-dollar scheme partly funded
> ...




This scares the crap out of me, Rudd really does think he's smart enough to pull a stunt like this and get away with it, but he's not.

He will stuff it up and the debt this will create for us on top of everything else will be just too much.

How dare he delve into this type of activity he has not got a mandate to bankrupt you, me and future generations.

Lets hope the Libs can slow him down at least.

*Geez people THINK before you vote next time.*


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## gfresh (23 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> So, in effect KRudd & Co. are saying WE, the PEOPLE will effectively become the "lenders of last resort" to BAIL OUT many companies an




Do they know something the general public doesn't know yet?  just a little something the banks may have told them, you know, something minor about all their international lines of credit about to be completely cut-off sometime in the next 12 months. 

I'm NOT a fan of being indebted for all my future working years, simply for the idiots of today. Let them suffer (along with me if so be it), but eventually things will settle, and growth will return on it's own. 

The process is already starting to occur with companies scaling back, reducing production, etc.. It's all going the way things should go, where eventually supply will be unable to meet demand once again... but if the government sticks their finger in, and messes with this process, then who knows what the longer-term consequences could be, and which things will simply fall off a cliff later on once the stimulus can no longer be applied and/or the money runs out. 

Seems ironic (crazy?) that companies and individuals are doing whatever they can to reduce their levels of indebtedness, yet the Government is hell-bent on taking on as much as possible!


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## Bushman (23 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> (b) STOP promising endless and unlimited financial support to big businesses and banks. This is a CORRUPT and UNFAIR policy - especially to the 100's of 1,000's of small & medium business owners and their MILLIONS of employees - many of whom will face the dole queue because a BIG business has been favoured with a bail out over their smaller one.




....and especially if they are going to run up a large foreign debt to fund it, robbing future generations to ease unemployment for 6-months. 

They said we should back globalisation; so back it warts and all. Take this time to increase productive capacity so that we can become a full service provider for the future global engine room, China and India. 

Then again, election terms last 4 years, right? So borrow, finance 'bread and circuses', dividends and part-time employment, and leave the brown stuff for the next bloke/sheila and their constituents. Worked for the Yanks after all.


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## Dowdy (23 January 2009)

We're heading for meltdown because Rudd is copying the US. The US gave a $31b stimulus, didn't work. Rudd blew $10b on stimulus, didn't work.

The only thing keep our housing market up is the inflationary government grant.

What is going to happen is commercial property will collapse due to all the retail stores shutting down (the government isn't going to give 'first commercial property grant') then housing will follow


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## noirua (23 January 2009)

moXJO said:


> It’s a very hard thing to pick. I was saying the same thing a few months back. I was flat out with work (construction) till oct-nov 2008. But now things have slowed down. We have a lot of quotes out there but now they are very slow to come back. A lot of the time we are beaten on price by a substantial amount. Others I know are going out of business. And a lot of different companies that were affected before us are folding, after hanging on as long as they could.
> This whole process is very slow moving. It nibbles at each sector until they collapse. Which in turn then affects those sectors that service them and so on. It "moving slowly" is probably the worst thing that can happen As you do not even realize there is a problem until it’s too late. If you keep a good stock of cash and low debt then you should be fine.
> 
> It’s still a bit of a mixed bag, infrastructure should boom given govt stimulus.



This contagion does seem to be affecting all in a sector eventually, as you infer moXJO.  Only the biggest and the strongest seem to survive. Many companies move to a no profit mode as they price contracts and cut pay - only way to survive for some.

In America and Europe the largest stores see that they can only increase turnover, by selling some items at such low prices that they drive others out of business as they've no chance of competing.
Every few days a big store picks on a few items and crashes the price by up to 66% and then piles them high.

Survival of the fittest, as they see this recession going on to 2012 and beyond.


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## MrBurns (23 January 2009)

Dowdy said:


> We're heading for meltdown because Rudd is copying the US. The US gave a $31b stimulus, didn't work. Rudd blew $10b on stimulus, didn't work.
> 
> The only thing keep our housing market up is the inflationary government grant.
> 
> What is going to happen is commercial property will collapse due to all the retail stores shutting down (the government isn't going to give 'first commercial property grant') then housing will follow




Spot on, commercial property is already stuffed but this will be a new low.


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## noirua (23 January 2009)

Dowdy said:


> We're heading for meltdown because Rudd is copying the US. The US gave a $31b stimulus, didn't work. Rudd blew $10b on stimulus, didn't work.



The UK have gone out on a limb and put about AU$750 billion on the line to save their banking system.
$10 billion (the US have put AU$1.1 trillion as a first installment) is not much and I think it needs a two year $200 billion plan of action to get Australia out of this mess.


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## Aussiejeff (23 January 2009)

noirua said:


> The UK have gone out on a limb and put about AU$750 billion on the line to save their banking system.
> $10 billion is not much and I think it needs a two year $200 billion plan of action.




However, there MUST be a huge future downside to the UK loading up the population with a mountain of debt of Everestian proportions. I wouldn't think the economy / treasury rating agencies are going to be too kind to the UK for many, many years to come.

Not unless the UK economy *booms* in the short to medium term and manages to repay its creditors without any sign of default. Any chance of an economic *boom* in the UK or Europe in the next year or two or three or....??

They need the Luck of The Irish.

Oh wait.

The Little People's Luck has not been too good of late either?


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## noirua (23 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> However, there MUST be a huge future downside to the UK loading up the population with a mountain of debt of Everestian proportions. I wouldn't think the economy / treasury rating agencies are going to be too kind to the UK for many, many years to come.
> 
> Not unless the UK economy *booms* in the short to medium term and manages to repay its creditors without any sign of default. Any chance of an economic *boom* in the UK or Europe in the next year or two or three or....??
> 
> ...



Fair comment there, what can I say. Only that visitors will find it cheap in Aus, NZ and UK.  The drought has ended in some areas and the sun is shining in Australia.  A bit drafty in NZ and b..... cold in the UK, raining, windy, damp, dank and horrible.


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## Aussiejeff (23 January 2009)

noirua said:


> Fair comment there, what can I say. Only that visitors will find it cheap in Aus, NZ and UK.  The drought has ended in some areas and the sun is shining in Australia.




Hehe. The way things are going, all the world's economies will be "flat-lining" soon with 0% interest all-round, Mega-mountains of debt, C- credit ratings at best, currencies worth Jack $hyte and millions of unemployed to boot.

Should be fun...


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## shaunQ (23 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> AUSTRALIA'S economy will "unwind scarily fast" this year with Wayne Swan forced to choose between middle-class welfare and industry bailouts, a report claims.




No way - Wayne would need to choose between being elected again, or losing. They will never dare do too much Family Tax Benefits and other middle welfare. It would be the end of Labor. They might tweak the upper limits.. for ,you know, those _rich_ people earning over $100K but thats it.


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## Aussiejeff (23 January 2009)

OK KRudd & Co.

Here is leadership from the top management of Valad - a struggling Property Funds Manager. If THEY can take pay cuts, WHAT ABOUT THE GUMMINT, HUH?




> In light of the difficult operating environment, Valad has commenced a series of cost management initiatives across Europe and Asia Pacific. The initiatives have included a reduction in headcount, tighter expense management and *senior staff have volunteered to take pay cuts*.
> 
> Valad’s c.25% headcount reduction is focused primarily on its asset sourcing and development teams and non-core business lines. In addition, a management restructure has been undertaken. Members of Valad’s Group Executive Team, Asia Pacific Chief Executive Officer, Jeff Locke, and Group Head of Corporate Affairs, Rebecca Thompson, will be leaving the Group. Mr Locke has agreed to remain with the Group over the coming months.
> 
> *In addition to the voluntary remuneration reductions announced at Valad’s AGM in October 2008, a number of senior executives have volunteered base salary reductions of up to 20%.*




:angry:


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## joeyr46 (23 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> OK KRudd & Co.
> 
> Here is leadership from the top management of Valad - a struggling Property Funds Manager. If THEY can take pay cuts, WHAT ABOUT THE GUMMINT, HUH?
> 
> ...




The way these guys stuffed up taking any pay at all is downright wrong IMO
 good to see not just shareholders getting screwed


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## Aussiejeff (23 January 2009)

joeyr46 said:


> The way these guys stuffed up taking any pay at all is downright wrong IMO
> good to see not just shareholders getting screwed




The good citizens of Oz are effectively shareholders of the Oz Economy. Are we getting screwed by mis-management too?


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## Julia (23 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> The good citizens of Oz are effectively shareholders of the Oz Economy. Are we getting screwed by mis-management too?



Yes.  And we will be paying for the privilege of same for at least the next decade or two.


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## MrBurns (23 January 2009)

Julia said:


> Yes.  And we will be paying for the privilege of same for at least the next decade or two.




Agree so I'll be campaigning for PM at the next election, with all seriousness I couldn't do any worse.
Any nominations for my cabinet ?


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## wayneL (23 January 2009)

Julia said:


> Yes.  And we will be paying for the privilege of same for at least the next generation or two... or three


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## theasxgorilla (23 January 2009)

Aussiejeff said:


> The good citizens of Oz are effectively shareholders of the Oz Economy. Are we getting screwed by mis-management too?




Hence I chose to dis-invest, for the time being.  We shouldn't put our blinkers on though...as Julia has mentioned its a generational issue and it's more wide spread than just our little island.


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## numbercruncher (24 January 2009)

Seem to be recruiting alot more Bears as news unfolds ?


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## numbercruncher (24 January 2009)

More wise words from your esteemed leader sure to warm the cockles of your heart .....




> The rest of the year is not going to be much fun. Think jobs evaporating, businesses closing, share dividends disappearing, superannuation shrinking, housing prices falling, the market plumbing the depths again. China, so recently our reliable economic driver, is now reversing us back down the hill at full tilt.
> 
> No wonder Kevin Rudd has been preparing the national psyche for its big day with a series of increasingly sombre speeches around the country.
> 
> He is now warning that 2009 *"will test the very fabric of who we are as a people and as a nation". *




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24954526-28737,00.html

 The PMs words would have your average over leveraged permabull rattling in their boots wouldnt they ??


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## knocker (24 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Agree so I'll be campaigning for PM at the next election, with all seriousness I couldn't do any worse.
> Any nominations for my cabinet ?




I'll be minister for environment and any other bogous portfolio this government has pulled out of its behind lol. While at i may as well stand for finance, what little of it that is left. lol


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## marklar (24 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Agree so I'll be campaigning for PM at the next election, with all seriousness I couldn't do any worse.
> Any nominations for my cabinet ?




Well I campaigned for the Senate last election, so at least I have some experience!  Tell you what, make me minister for communications and I'll get this damn National Broadband Network kicking along and kill off the "great firewall of censorship" that Conroy is pushing.

m.


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## moXJO (24 January 2009)

noirua said:


> This contagion does seem to be affecting all in a sector eventually, as you infer moXJO.  Only the biggest and the strongest seem to survive. Many companies move to a no profit mode as they price contracts and cut pay - only way to survive for some.
> 
> In America and Europe the largest stores see that they can only increase turnover, by selling some items at such low prices that they drive others out of business as they've no chance of competing.
> Every few days a big store picks on a few items and crashes the price by up to 66% and then piles them high.
> ...




That’s another important point. Just how long will this turmoil go on and how long can people hold out. Considering massive amounts of cash have been decimated in housing and shares a lot of people are already stretched. And this is just at the start, so let’s hope it doesn't last to long.


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## knocker (24 January 2009)

moXJO said:


> That’s another important point. Just how long will this turmoil go on and how long can people hold out. Considering massive amounts of cash have been decimated in housing and shares a lot of people are already stretched. And this is just at the start, so let’s hope it doesn't last to long.




Wishful thinking. Quite a few more years for this one to play out yet.


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## Smurf1976 (24 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Agree so I'll be campaigning for PM at the next election, with all seriousness I couldn't do any worse.
> Any nominations for my cabinet ?



Smurf puts hand up for everything that's measured in megawatts, petajoules, gigalitres or megatonnes. I'll make sure we have a lot more of these things. 

Need to find another person who knows about things which fly, float or have wheels and an engine. We'll be making these things get loaded, unloaded and moved faster and cheaper. 

And someone else able to look after a few vaults full of shiny yellow stuff without selling or giving it away. They also need to be able to run machines, specifically printing presses, at a slow pace without trying to speed them up. This will end the funny money business.

Also need someone who's good with computers especially Broadband. This will bring us into the 21st Century, financed by getting the 20th Century things as above sorted out also.

Smurf promises to fix the Current Account deficit and return prosperity to Australia by means of the above.


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## knocker (24 January 2009)

Smurf1976 said:


> Smurf puts hand up for everything that's measured in megawatts, petajoules, gigalitres or megatonnes. I'll make sure we have a lot more of these things.
> 
> Need to find another person who knows about things which fly, float or have wheels and an engine. We'll be making these things get loaded, unloaded and moved faster and cheaper.
> 
> ...




Good stuff smurf.As finance minister I will buy a lottery ticket each week to bolster the coffers!!!


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## Glen48 (24 January 2009)

Maybe Swan put to much downward pressure on Inflation and the balloon went poped leaving us in this mess?
Mr. Burns as a big fan of your I will send a few bucks along if I can get in to your cabinet however will there  be spirits and other goodies inside?
I have sent of my loot to be nominated for OZ of the Yr but I am afraid Professor Noel Pearson will get the nod good choice, look at all the things he has done to advance the Originals, things such as ( any one help?)
Good to see Turn Bull telling Rudd and Co. we need jobs now all he has to do it tell us how to go about it.


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## MrBurns (24 January 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Maybe Swan put to much downward pressure on Inflation and the balloon went poped leaving us in this mess?
> Mr. Burns as a big fan of your I will send a few bucks along if I can get in to your cabinet however will there  be spirits and other goodies inside?
> I have sent of my loot to be nominated for OZ of the Yr but I am afraid Professor Noel Pearson will get the nod good choice, look at all the things he has done to advance the Originals, things such as ( any one help?)
> Good to see Turn Bull telling Rudd and Co. we need jobs now all he has to do it tell us how to go about it.




Sorry I havent replied for a while I was overseas telling the world how to run things. My cabinet is shaping up well and yes there will be a full bar and plenty of girls to help fill in the  few minutes between overseas jaunts on the insistance of my good pal the Australian Tax Payer.


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## Wysiwyg (24 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Sorry I havent replied for a while I was overseas telling the world how to run things. My cabinet is shaping up well and yes there will be a full bar and plenty of girls to help fill in the  few minutes between overseas jaunts on the insistance of my good pal the Australian Tax Payer.




I actually want to know what you would do different?I did not see you on the federal ballot paper at election time so are you still gaining experience? 

On second thoughts, don`t answer, you do not have a clue.

On third thoughts, you`re criticism is welcome.Total government control of what we can and can`t do is NOT the route to a freer society.


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## Glen48 (24 January 2009)

Sorry Mr. Burns don't know how Krudd got to reply to my message it was meant for you.


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## MrBurns (24 January 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> I actually want to know what you would do different?I did not see you on the federal ballot paper at election time so are you still gaining experience?
> 
> On second thoughts, don`t answer, you do not have a clue.
> 
> On third thoughts, you`re criticism is welcome.Total government control of what we can and can`t do is NOT the route to a freer society.




Oh poor wysiwyg is all flustered and huffing and puffing because someone had the audacity to say something about Queen Rudd. 
Just have an aspirin and lie down.

I wouldn't have given cash away at Christmas.
I wouldn't be propping up the commercial property sector, they're big boys and can look after themselves, most of them have already been broke several times.
I would reform the tax system urgently and try to get taxes down as much as possible then use the surplus to take care of the million or so that will be out of work before long.

Oh yes and I wouldnt have Swan as treasurer, you may as well give the job to the cat.

There you go wysiwyg, what do you think of that.

On second thoughts, don`t answer, you do not have a clue.


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## MrBurns (24 January 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Sorry Mr. Burns don't know how Krudd got to reply to my message it was meant for you.




I'm practising how to be PM obviously KRudd didnt practise enough.


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## Glen48 (24 January 2009)

A quick 10 minutes should do the job. Mr.B
I  am starting to think the Feds know spending money is a waste to effort however they have no other alternative and need the voters to think they have it all under control and they also realise the housing industry needs supporting because of the money it generates and it is another feel good policy.
Nero had the right idea at least when he was finished construction could begin again here we can't even get this recession under way so we can work towards an end.


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## Wysiwyg (24 January 2009)

MrBurns said:


> Oh poor wysiwyg is all flustered and huffing and puffing because someone had the audacity to say something about Queen Rudd.
> Just have an aspirin and lie down.
> 
> *I would reform the tax system urgently and try to get taxes down as much as possible then use the surplus to take care of the million or so that will be out of work before long.*
> ...




Thankyou, your tax system reform comprehensively covers all aspects that have been the bane of Australian workers since the first pick-pocket sod beached his moraless foot.



> 1788 – 1880
> 
> When our first Governor, Governor Phillip, arrived in New South Wales in 1788, he had a Royal Instruction that gave him power to impose taxation if the colony needed it.
> 
> ...


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## theasxgorilla (24 January 2009)

marklar said:


> Well I campaigned for the Senate last election, so at least I have some experience!  Tell you what, make me minister for communications and I'll get this damn National Broadband Network kicking along and kill off the "great firewall of censorship" that Conroy is pushing




Amen to that brother...VOTE 1 Marklar!


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## Aussiejeff (25 January 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Maybe Swan put to much downward pressure on Inflation and the balloon went poped leaving us in this mess?
> Mr. Burns as a big fan of your I will send a few bucks along if I can get in to your cabinet however will there  be spirits and other goodies inside?
> *I have sent of my loot to be nominated for OZ of the Yr* but I am afraid Professor Noel Pearson will get the nod good choice, look at all the things he has done to advance the Originals, things such as ( any one help?)
> Good to see Turn Bull telling Rudd and Co. we need jobs now all he has to do it tell us how to go about it.




Unfortunately, chain smoking infants are banned from nomination. We live in a cruel world.


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## Julia (25 January 2009)

One person who does not deserve to be nominated is Tony Abbott.

He has suggested that John Howard's US Presidential Medal of Freedom is superior to hero Trooper Mark Donaldson's Victoria Cross!!

He said: "If there was anyone in politics who deserved a medal for political courage, it was John Howard".


----------



## Glen48 (25 January 2009)

Howard should go down as the worst PM ever. Spending $380M tell us how good GST will be when we had no choice on voting on it. Spend million telling us how good Work Choices will be then pulping millions of books because he wanted to change a few words.
Allowing  mortgage brokers to start up as long as they had a pulse and then not jumping on low doc loans.
Bring in the FHO so millions of Aussies can get into debt and push the house prices up.
Have to stop my Blood is boiling.


----------



## sinner (25 January 2009)

Julia said:


> One person who does not deserve to be nominated is Tony Abbott.
> 
> He has suggested that John Howard's US Presidential Medal of Freedom is superior to hero Trooper Mark Donaldson's Victoria Cross!!
> 
> He said: "If there was anyone in politics who deserved a medal for political courage, it was John Howard".




I am surprised after years if not decades of ethical malfeasance and worse, it took some idiotic statement to get people to vilify him.

Nobody cared when he was meddling in Indigenous affairs or higher education or abortion rights or anything really!

But say one thing against a digger and you're scum now.

EDIT: He didn't even say anything against the digger now I think about it.


----------



## Julia (25 January 2009)

sinner said:


> I am surprised after years if not decades of ethical malfeasance and worse, it took some idiotic statement to get people to vilify him.
> 
> Nobody cared when he was meddling in Indigenous affairs or higher education or abortion rights or anything really!



I don't think that's right, Sinner.  Many of us were appalled by Mr Abbott for the entire time he was a Minister.  But the fact is that he was in fact a Minister and any protests were dismissed.

Imo there is no place in any government for people with their own strong religious barrows to push.


----------



## numbercruncher (26 January 2009)

Yes Abott is pretty much a religous extremist, the Liberal party were in bed with nutters like the exclusive Brethren, thank goodness we sacked em.


----------



## overlap (26 January 2009)

Maybe this belongs in a property thread too.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24962641-601,00.html

Turnbull says let market decide



> MALCOLM Turnbull wants Kevin Rudd to allow the market to "run its course" on commercial property values despite government fears the global financial crisis could drive a collapse that would threaten 50,000 Australian jobs.
> 
> And the Opposition Leader has accused the Prime Minister of padding bank profits instead of helping small and medium-sized employers struggling to keep afloat in the face of the worsening credit squeeze.
> 
> ...


----------



## Geoff (26 January 2009)

overlap said:


> Turnbull says let market decide




I agree, these companies made their bed let them fail and heads will roll.  The rest of us suffer as well but it's not fair on the little guy who goes bankrupt and struggles to see all these big companies getting a massive bailout because they f**ked up.


----------



## MrBurns (26 January 2009)

Bail out the commercial property market ?

1/ It's wrong
1/ It wont work

Who's going to occupy all the new empty buildings, if there were tenants they would get finance to build anyway.

I'll tell you who will lease these buildings - the Govt - with *YOUR* money.

Wait and see it's an absolute monty - the developers will get Govt tenants which will make them very rich and you and I just that bit poorer.

They will already have that factored into the equation "Oh Mr Rudd the buildings almost finished and we havent got a tenant we'll go broke, and that wont look good for you will it after proppping us up . Can you think of a Govt dept to fill these building up ? you can ? 20 year lease ? nice fat rent? no problems ? beauty sign here."


----------



## Aussiejeff (26 January 2009)

overlap said:


> ...Turnbull says *let market decide*...




That's the problem. Didn't "The MARKET" decide to get us into this cesspit in the first place?

Seriously, "The Market" is a _dark_ & _mysterious_ beastie with many, MANY parts that make up the hole. Here are a few of the more significant components of the "MARKET" - 

Firstly, there is the ubiquitous STOCK MARKET - a veritable airy-fairy wonderland of pseudo-Ponzi-paper, Ponzi Schemes and Ponzi Regulators. This Market is a bit like those fluffy, pink, thingys on a stick you buy at fairgrounds. Tastes decadently luvverly and makes you feel good when it is *cool* but rapidly melts away to a sticky, goo-ey morass when the heat is on. Basically full of air and little substance.

Secondly, there is the REAL ESTATE MARKET - a veritable airy-fairy wonderland of buildings mainly constructed from straw and cards, stacked miles high by Ponzi-Operators and overseen by Ponzi-Regulators. The RE MARKET looks spectacular when times are *booming*, but the houses of cards and straw have a tendency to collapse in a heap when an ill wind blows.

Thirdly, there is the FINANCE MARKET - a veritable airy-fairy wonderland of Mega-Ponzi Banks, Mega-Ponzi Fund Managers & just plain Mega-Ponzi Schemes, overseen by Mega-Ponzi Regulators. Again, this market component performs spectacular flip-flops on a dailly basis and helps to support a massive Ponzi White Collar Crime industry, which in turn helps keep airy-fairy Ponzi-Economies afloat during *boom* times. Unfortunately this market is prone most of the time to hyperPonzi-deflation and hyperPonzi-inflation, with only brief periods of stability in between.  

I could go on enlightening about some other MARKETS such as the PONZI NEW CAR MARKET, the PONZI USED CAR MARKET, the PONZI FISH MARKET, the PONZI RETAIL MARKET etc, etc.... but - so long as you use the common PONZI denominator in all your Market research, you will generally come up with the right answer. 


Chiz,

The Ponz.


----------



## roofa (26 January 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Howard should go down as the worst PM ever. Spending $380M tell us how good GST will be when we had no choice on voting on it. Spend million telling us how good Work Choices will be then pulping millions of books because he wanted to change a few words.
> Allowing  mortgage brokers to start up as long as they had a pulse and then not jumping on low doc loans.
> Bring in the FHO so millions of Aussies can get into debt and push the house prices up.
> Have to stop my Blood is boiling.




Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we go to an election with the libs saying they will introduce the GST? And we voted them in.


----------



## numbercruncher (26 January 2009)

roofa said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we go to an election with the libs saying they will introduce the GST? And we voted them in.





Hello,

I dont recall the Neo-Cons saying that.




> John Howard was re-elected leader of the Liberal party in 1995, and pledged to "never, ever" introduce the GST.[1] Howard led the Liberal-National Coalition to a large victory in the 1996 elections.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Australia)


Yes seems the Neo-Cons are compulsive liars - least their ex-leader got a shining new medal from the Neo-Con overlord Bush before it all ended.


Thankyou.

ps. I dont like Labor much either.


----------



## roofa (26 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> Hello,
> 
> I dont recall the Neo-Cons saying that.
> 
> ...






I do recall, and infact we are the only Country to vote in a Government and a GST.


----------



## numbercruncher (26 January 2009)

roofa said:


> I do recall, and infact we are the only Country to vote in a Government and a GST.





I think most people voted against Beazley and lathom if all truth be known .... not _for_ Howard and GST.


----------



## Glen48 (26 January 2009)

I read were UK banks were within 3 hrs of closing down and stopping all services including ATM's last yr when there was a run on the Banks.
So no we know how much time we have to get money out.


----------



## dalek (26 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> I think most people voted against Beazley and lathom if all truth be known .... not _for_ Howard and GST.




Sadly, all too often we end up with the least worst entity winning as we find ourselves forced to vote against, rather than for.
Donald Duck would have beaten whacko Mark Latham.


----------



## noirua (26 January 2009)

Julia said:


> One person who does not deserve to be nominated is Tony Abbott.
> 
> He has suggested that John Howard's US Presidential Medal of Freedom is superior to hero Trooper Mark Donaldson's Victoria Cross!!
> 
> He said: "If there was anyone in politics who deserved a medal for political courage, it was John Howard".



John Howard would probably say, I served Australia for 11 years and 8 months and it was you lot who voted me in.  I received 9 honours in office and if you had a gripe with that you needn't have let me stay there.  So you lot know where to stick it.

Quite right John, you tell'm m8.


----------



## Julia (26 January 2009)

numbercruncher said:


> Hello,
> 
> I dont recall the Neo-Cons saying that.
> 
> ...



Your post is completely disingenuous, NC.  You quote John Howard's declaration of 'never, ever'
as if it was said in the run up to the 1998 election.  It was said long before that.

In the 1998 election campaign Howard and &Co. clearly ran on the proposition that they would introduce a GST.  The people voted them in.
Therefore they did not lie in this instance.

Raise your objections to any and all politicians by all means.  But do so honestly.


----------



## Glen48 (26 January 2009)

Julia is correct and I was wrong but i think the voters were more worried about Latham than the GST


----------



## doctorj (26 January 2009)

Time to get some real expertise in to bolster the economy?


----------



## roofa (26 January 2009)

Glen48 said:


> Julia is correct and I was wrong but i think the voters were more worried about Latham than the GST




I don't think Latham had much to do with that GST election.


----------



## brty (27 January 2009)

Hi,

Time to get a few facts straight....



> The Federal election of 3 October 1998 was held six months earlier than required by the Constitution. Prime Minister John Howard made the announcement following the launch of the coalition's GST policy launch and a 5-week advertising campaign. The ensuing election was almost entirely dominated by the proposed 10% Goods and Services Tax and proposed income tax cuts.
> 
> The Howard government entered the campaign with a 40-seat majority. The government suffered a nationwide swing of approximately 5% against it and the loss of 19 seats in the House of Representatives. It was returned with a 12 seat majority.
> 
> ...




from australianpolitics.com

1/ There was no Latham
2/ Libs/NP turned a 40 seat majority into a 12 seat majority
3/ Coalition got less than 50% of the vote.

In that election I voted for the coalition in the house and the democrats in the senate (to keep the bastards honest and block the GST). There was no other way to vote in that election if you wanted the Libs in, but no GST.
The turncoat Democrats got their just deserts later.

brty


----------



## greggles (14 March 2019)

Lots of doomsaying in the mainstream media at the moment about the Australian economy, especially at news.com.au.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...s/news-story/e65644df8cf03bb045055ef1dba5736b
https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...e/news-story/e8393c8a51e19e8fcec17111ebd2ac54

Is the current housing market downturn really going to be the catalyst that sends us spiraling into economic disaster?


----------



## PZ99 (14 March 2019)

Cheap housing + the first home buyers' grant will fix that one real quick


----------



## satanoperca (14 March 2019)

greggles said:


> Is the current housing market downturn really going to be the catalyst that sends us spiraling into economic disaster?




Hi Greegles, think if you reverse you question you will find the answer.

"Was the current housing market upturn <2018 the catalyst that boosted Australia economy"

So while I strongly believe that the current housing market downturn has started and is far from over, I don't think it will cause economic disaster, just a change of think and investment class.

I personally hope, after the downturn has stabilized, investors will start to investigate opportunities in innovation instead of homes.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2019)

satanoperca said:


> I personally hope, after the downturn has stabilized, investors will start to investigate opportunities in innovation instead of homes.



Last year I bought what I'd describe as a fairly normal 1960's house in SA.

Amazing how many people I've met who are stunned that I haven't knocked the place down and put multiple apartments on the site. Could make a fortune apparently.

Such is the mentality at present with people seeing property as a way to make money rather than somewhere to live.

I've zero intention of knocking anything down - I bought it to live in which to my thinking is the purpose of a house.


----------



## So_Cynical (14 March 2019)

greggles said:


> Is the current housing market downturn really going to be the catalyst that sends us spiraling into economic disaster?




Housing hasn't had a wealth destruction cycle in 28 years, wealth creation requires wealth destruction.


----------



## greggles (14 March 2019)

So_Cynical said:


> Housing hasn't had a wealth destruction cycle in 28 years, wealth creation requires wealth destruction.




My concern is the massive level of personal debt in Australia. If the housing market drops 15% to 20% it could be like the first domino falling. That will push distressed sellers into the market driving down prices further and sending people to the wall financially, especially in Sydney and Melbourne.

Add into that declining commodity prices, slowing economic growth, stagnant wage growth, a rising unemployment rate and you could have a serious economic situation on your hands. If overseas financial markets take another serious dive that will just be the coup de grâce.

Too many people in Australia expect the good times to keep on rolling and that the high standard of living we enjoy will always be there. I reckon inevitably we're going to have to eat an economic sh*t sandwich. The only question I have is when.


----------



## Ann (14 March 2019)

greggles said:


> My concern is the massive level of personal debt in Australia. If the housing market drops 15% to 20% it could be like the first domino falling. That will push distressed sellers into the market driving down prices further and sending people to the wall financially, especially in Sydney and Melbourne.
> 
> Add into that declining commodity prices, slowing economic growth, stagnant wage growth, a rising unemployment rate and you could have a serious economic situation on your hands. If overseas financial markets take another serious dive that will just be the coup de grâce.
> 
> Too many people in Australia expect the good times to keep on rolling and that the high standard of living we enjoy will always be there. I reckon inevitably we're going to have to eat an economic sh*t sandwich. The only question I have is when.




Then there is Disposable Personal Income which is rising. This may well manage to service the debt levels we are carrying. I also wonder if more people are buying with credit card to attract flybuy points? This will look as though our debt is growing when in fact we may just be moving away from using cash. Just a thought.
Here is the chart for the fourth quarter figures for 2018 of Australian Disposable Personal Income.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Last year I bought what I'd describe as a fairly normal 1960's house in SA.
> 
> Amazing how many people I've met who are stunned that I haven't knocked the place down and put multiple apartments on the site. Could make a fortune apparently.
> 
> ...




There is quite a fashion to knock down 1960's houses and put up more modern premises to keep up with the Joneses. 

I don't have a problem with this as it creates work in the construction industry


----------



## greggles (14 March 2019)

Ann said:


> Then there is Disposable Personal Income which is rising. This may well manage to service the debt levels we are carrying.




It might be, but it's also buying those new iPhones and innumerable other gadgets that a lot of us seem to have these days. Don't forget the $20 smashed avo on toast that Millennials and hipsters are tucking into at cafes. There has never been a time in history when there were more things to buy with all that disposable income.

Back in the 70s (when I was a young bloke) the choice was far more limited and consumerism was somewhat muted. Now it's a raging beast that threatens to devour us all. Spend we can and spend we apparently will, mostly on stuff that will be obsolete in a couple of years.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2019)

greggles said:


> My concern is the massive level of personal debt in Australia. If the housing market drops 15% to 20% it could be like the first domino falling. That will push distressed sellers into the market driving down prices further and sending people to the wall financially, especially in Sydney and Melbourne.
> 
> Add into that declining commodity prices, slowing economic growth, stagnant wage growth, a rising unemployment rate and you could have a serious economic situation on your hands. If overseas financial markets take another serious dive that will just be the coup de grâce.
> 
> Too many people in Australia expect the good times to keep on rolling and that the high standard of living we enjoy will always be there. I reckon inevitably we're going to have to eat an economic sh*t sandwich. The only question I have is when.



My guess is within the next 2-3 years, at least then it will get climate change off the front page and it will give people something to really worry about.
The good thing is, it will reduce emissions, when people cant afford their energy bills.
There is a silver lining in all clouds, you just have to look for it.


----------



## barney (14 March 2019)

greggles said:


> My concern is the massive level of personal debt in Australia. If the housing market drops 15% to 20% it could be like the first domino falling. That will push distressed sellers into the market driving down prices further and sending people to the wall financially, especially in Sydney and Melbourne.
> 
> Too many people in Australia expect the good times to keep on rolling and that the high standard of living we enjoy will always be there. I reckon inevitably we're going to have to eat an economic sh*t sandwich. The only question I have is when.




I hear your concerns Greg. 

Economics is not my strong suit, but looking at all the World Index's at the moment … I see some early topping patterns ……. 

Everything in financial markets tends to cycle … I'd say disregard those cycles at your peril, particularly if you are not young and don't have time to ride out the storms (I'm old  … "ish" lol)

On the flip side .. topping patterns and "impending doom cycles" can sometimes take years to develop so who really knows when the crap will hit the fan.

Because I'm old … "ish"  ….. I tend to be fairly blasé about wealth and all things associated with it …. I have come to the conclusion that life is just a bit of a game  … as long as you have enough friends, family ..... and enough cash to keep your friends and family living the lifestyle they are accustomed to ….. you will be ok

We are fortunate to live in Oz … For most, even when times are bad, they are still a lot better than most other places.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> There is quite a fashion to knock down 1960's houses and put up more modern premises to keep up with the Joneses.
> 
> I don't have a problem with this as it creates work in the construction industry



It created work, though it seems an incredible waste of natural resources, but in the context of the thread it seems very symptomatic of bubble mentality that the assumption is that anyone buying a house / land is doing so purely to make a profit.

In the past, houses were for living in and if you were going to make a profit out of it then that was known as being a landlord with your real profit being largely from the rent collected.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> It created work, though it seems an incredible waste of natural resources, but in the context of the thread it seems very symptomatic of bubble mentality that the assumption is that anyone buying a house / land is doing so purely to make a profit.
> 
> In the past, houses were for living in and if you were going to make a profit out of it then that was known as being a landlord with your real profit being largely from the rent collected.




I don't think you can assume all or even most knock down/ rebuilds are for rent. Many of them are for owner occupiers.

A relative of mine bought a 60's house in Melbourne, moved into a flat then knocked his house down and rebuilt it then moved in to the new house. 

As people move up the income scale and can afford to do this it's becoming more popular.


----------



## jbocker (14 March 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've zero intention of knocking anything down - I bought it to live in which to my thinking is the purpose of a house.
> Such is the mentality at present with people seeing property as a way to make money rather than somewhere to live.





SirRumpole said:


> There is quite a fashion to knock down 1960's houses and put up more modern premises to keep up with the Joneses.




True statements. Even undeveloped you will still be building equity, probably at a faster rate than knocking over and rebuilding requiring large capital / debt. Remember that a lot of these houses, can have both. Keep the old and build some new on the same site. That's a good thing for wanting to densify and not add to the sprawl, sprawl needs new infrastructure. Over densifying has its problems too as infrastructure is stretched. Having an area with the right mix can make exceptional lifestyle areas. Ultimately houses making great homes.


----------



## So_Cynical (15 March 2019)

greggles said:


> My concern is the massive level of personal debt in Australia. If the housing market drops 15% to 20% it could be like the first domino falling. That will push distressed sellers into the market driving down prices further and sending people to the wall financially, especially in Sydney and Melbourne.




Yep that is exactly what is needed and unfortunately due to the 28 year bull market there must be a bust of sorts, people being forced to sell thus driving prices down - wealth destruction.


----------



## Ann (15 March 2019)

greggles said:


> Back in the 70s (when I was a young bloke) the choice was far more limited and consumerism was somewhat muted. Now it's a raging beast that threatens to devour us all. Spend we can and spend we apparently will, mostly on stuff that will be obsolete in a couple of years.



Back in the 70s (when I was a young woman) I had no problem finding things to spend my money on. We had cars, clothes, motorcycles, jewellery, art, movies, colour televisions, microwaves stereo systems and forget smashed avo on toast, it was Grange wine at city restaurants.  Ah yes, those were the days. Nowadays, smashed avo is a luxury!


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2019)

Ann said:


> Back in the 70s (when I was a young woman) I had no problem finding things to spend my money on. We had cars, clothes, motorcycles, jewellery, art, movies, colour televisions, microwaves stereo systems and forget smashed avo on toast, it was Grange wine at city restaurants.  Ah yes, those were the days. Nowadays, smashed avo is a luxury!



Ah yes, the Honda 750/4, Holden Sandman, the Rolling Stones without wrinkles at the WACA, Led Zeppelin at Beatty Park swimming pool, those were the days. 
Not a lot of t.v in the mining towns though, hamburgers and Southern Comfort was more the go, you would have been bashed asking for smashed avocados.


----------



## jbocker (15 March 2019)

sptrawler said:


> ... you would have been bashed asking for smashed avocados.




Glad that has changed. 
I didn't eat an avocado till 1986/7, (did they exist in Perth before then?) and I ate it like an apple. Crisp bite and didn't think much of it. My Kiwi neighbours for 10 minutes wet their uggs boots with gut roaring laughter when I told them.
Did like it better when I ate a ripe one!


----------



## jbocker (15 March 2019)

As the baby boomers grew up throughout there lives many things changed to accommodate their new requirements and sheer numbers. These were all very significant, schools, tertiary education, then the sprawl of housing along with jobs and earnings and the evolution of finance, lifestyles, then the big money years in high paid positions (kids grown up) and LOTS to spend. Now retirement has kickers, no work no tax and less spend, bubbles burst making drops in value. How much is the effect of the retiring boomers on the economy. I think it is very significant.


----------



## Ann (15 March 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Ah yes, the Honda 750/4, Holden Sandman, the Rolling Stones without wrinkles at the WACA, Led Zeppelin at Beatty Park swimming pool, those were the days.
> Not a lot of t.v in the mining towns though, hamburgers and Southern Comfort was more the go, you would have been bashed asking for smashed avocados.




You know sptrawler, all the young ones had better figures back then, hamburgers-with-the-lot were a million times better than they are now and why oh why don't those poor old Rolling Stones retire, it is cringe-making to watch Jagger thrust his groin at an audience of seventy year old women....urgh!


----------



## greggles (15 March 2019)

Ann said:


> Back in the 70s (when I was a young woman) I had no problem finding things to spend my money on. We had cars, clothes, motorcycles, jewellery, art, movies, colour televisions, microwaves stereo systems and forget smashed avo on toast, it was Grange wine at city restaurants.  Ah yes, those were the days. Nowadays, smashed avo is a luxury!




Perhaps my perspective is skewed somewhat as I was a young whippersnapper back in the 70s whose biggest concern was when my next bag of mixed lollies would be in my hands and then two seconds later in my gob. My next biggest concern was when we'd get a colour TV and later in the 70s one of those newfangled top loading VCR thingies.

I do remember the choice as being much more limited than it is now and the number of purchases generally being far fewer. Cars lasted longer, as did TVs, and as for phones... well Telstra (Telecom?) provided you with one of them gratis if one wasn't already there where you got your line connected.

Anyway, I didn't mean to take this thread off topic but I feel that consumerism is far more rampant these days and most consumer goods are built to be obsolete very quickly. We now live in a culture of replacement rather than repair and I think that despite having more disposable income, it tends to disappear faster IMO.


----------



## Ann (15 March 2019)

greggles said:


> Anyway, I didn't mean to take this thread off topic but I feel that consumerism is far more rampant these days and most consumer goods are built to be obsolete very quickly. We now live in a culture of replacement rather than repair and I think that despite having more disposable income, it tends to disappear faster IMO.




I don't think you are off topic young greggles. 
We always have plenty of things to spend our money on, in any generation but I have to agree with you about obsolescence. Electricals are no longer solid but lightweight. I have a blender away in an attempt to get it repaired, so far no spare parts have turned up, it may end up as a waste of time.  Fashionable clothing has become so cheap the stuff is worn once or twice and then tossed. Paying with a card can be a real trap as you don't see money diminishing in your wallet. I have gone back to using cash, I can budget better that way. I think the Afterpay style of purchase may end in tears for a lot of people.


----------



## dutchie (27 November 2019)

Negative interest rates won't be too far away.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ceeae471597adc5de3490d78a8f6e0e9


----------



## wayneL (27 November 2019)

dutchie said:


> Negative interest rates won't be too far away.
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ceeae471597adc5de3490d78a8f6e0e9




Yep!

And the question I asked myself is why in the Hell? This is Frankenomics of the worst order, with some other unstated goal that we the plebeians are not privy to.

One of my good clients is a left-wing economics professor at UQ. Well we disagree on almost everything we do have amazing and respectful discussions on a range of topics, especially economics.

(NB if I do say so myself, we are an absolute model of how to have respectful disagreement)

But I am not an economist and much less a professor of the same, I managed to get him to admit that there are some other sinister motives with world economics at the moment.

And you can back it won't be for the benefit of we plebeians.


----------



## PZ99 (27 November 2019)

My view is... don't play the game !

Don't allow yourself to be conned "owned" by the corporatocracy by putting yourself in a truckload of debt that you can't repay just because of cheaper rates. If you do you face two options - sink or swim. Or you can take the third option - don't do the dive in the first place.

Oh yeah, and tell your kids that smoking is bad for them. LOL


----------



## wayneL (27 November 2019)

PZ99 said:


> My view is... don't play the game !
> 
> Don't allow yourself to be conned "owned" by the corporatocracy by putting yourself in a truckload of debt that you can't repay just because of cheaper rates. If you do you face two options - sink or swim. Or you can take the third option - don't do the dive in the first place.
> 
> Oh yeah, and tell your kids that smoking is bad for them. LOL



Bingo.

But one must be able to resist the elitist psychology in order to do so.


----------



## dutchie (27 November 2019)

wayneL said:


> Bingo.
> 
> But one must be able to resist the elitist psychology in order to do so.




.. and elitist pressure.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 December 2019)

Quite a long interview, but well worth listening to.

Ken Henry on tax reform and the future of the Australian economy.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...-will-not-be-fixed-by-stimulus-alone/11773832


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2020)

Drought.

Reliance on mineral resources that we sell to the lowest bidder in a climate made world.

Stupid unskilled population, with an even more stupid education system.

Ballooning debt.

Expensive energy.

Technology advances rendering industries obsolete.

I have a feeling the drought will hurry the crunch along


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2020)

I should add cultist adherence to identity politics....


----------



## barney (3 January 2020)

moXJO said:


> I should add cultist adherence to identity politics....




People being selfish/self centred is an unfortunate fact of life I guess  … Where do we start in fixing that problem ….  Not easy.  

Minority groups often appear to have more than their fair share of power a lot of the time yet politicians often seem unwilling to make a stand for the majority  ... Votes??  I have no idea really.


----------



## sptrawler (3 January 2020)

moXJO said:


> Drought.
> 
> Reliance on mineral resources that we sell to the lowest bidder in a climate made world.
> 
> ...



Too much strategic importance and very little holding cost, for a superpower to let it go.IMO


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## SirRumpole (3 January 2020)

barney said:


> People being selfish/self centred is an unfortunate fact of life I guess  … Where do we start in fixing that problem ….  Not easy.
> 
> Minority groups often appear to have more than their fair share of power a lot of the time yet politicians often seem unwilling to make a stand for the majority  ... Votes??  I have no idea really.




Elections are won in a small number of swinging seats these days. Minorities (like coal miners and those who benefit from franking credit rebates and negative gearing) can swing the result as we saw last election.

That's why parties take their supporter base for granted and go for the minority vote, sometimes to their cost and sometimes to their benefit.


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## sptrawler (3 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Elections are won in a small number of swinging seats these days. Minorities (like coal miners and those who benefit from franking credit rebates and negative gearing) can swing the result as we saw last election.
> 
> That's why parties take their supporter base for granted and go for the minority vote, sometimes to their cost and sometimes to their benefit.



I think the last election was pitched exactly where it landed, the rich swung one way, the working class swung the other.
Trying to blame minorities, isnt going to win the next election.IMO
If the next election is fought on similar lines, the gap will be much larger.
Just my opinion.


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## barney (3 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think the last election was pitched exactly where it landed, the rich swung one way, the working class swung the other.
> Trying to blame minorities, isnt going to win the next election.IMO
> If the next election is fought on similar lines, the gap will be much larger.
> Just my opinion.




Yeah, its all above my limited political head to be honest Homer 

I still think selfishness is a major cause of many ongoing social issues way before it becomes political but many humans tend to be wired towards egocentrism (whether they realise it or not) And too much of that is not healthy for any society.  

Anyway, I'm in way over my head on this type of discussion so perhaps best I sit back and listen.


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## sptrawler (3 January 2020)

barney said:


> Yeah, its all above my limited political head to be honest Homer
> 
> I still think selfishness is a major cause of many ongoing social issues way before it becomes political but many humans tend to be wired towards egocentrism (whether they realise it or not) And too much of that is not healthy for any society.
> 
> Anyway, I'm in way over my head on this type of discussion so perhaps best I sit back and listen.



Agree completly, the capitalist system works on the premise of everyone working harder and getting more, the socialist system works on those who can afford it give more to support those who have less, conflict will always happen in a society that has a democratic vote on the weighting.
Those who win the election, pitch their policies to what the majority feel is right.
There was a big swing to Labour, from well off electorates, and a swing away from Labour in blue collar electorates.
They can dress it up anyway they like, but facts are facts.


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## Smurf1976 (3 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> That's why parties take their supporter base for granted and go for the minority vote, sometimes to their cost and sometimes to their benefit.



That maybe true but in the context of the last election the bottom line is that Labor's traditional support base voted Liberal and the Liberals' traditional support base voted Labor.

That's the reality of it. Labor's idea that people like truck drivers and bricklayers are "top end of town" wasn't at all well received among the party's traditional blue collar support base for the simple reason that it sent a message that Labor was the party for people on welfare, not the party for workers. The workers heeded that message.


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## SirRumpole (4 January 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> That maybe true but in the context of the last election the bottom line is that Labor's traditional support base voted Liberal and the Liberals' traditional support base voted Labor.
> 
> That's the reality of it. Labor's idea that people like truck drivers and bricklayers are "top end of town" wasn't at all well received among the party's traditional blue collar support base for the simple reason that it sent a message that Labor was the party for people on welfare, not the party for workers. The workers heeded that message.




The other sad reality is tat we ended up with a PM and government who aren't up to the job as the current fire crisis and utter chaos of the energy situation proves.

Would a Shorten government have been any better ? We will never know, but a government that has been in for 6 years has now run out of excuses to blame anyone else for the economy, our appalling education standards, our utter unpreparedness for natural disasters and our virtual total reliance on a few exports that we dig up out of the ground.


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## qldfrog (4 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The other sad reality is tat we ended up with a PM and government who aren't up to the job as the current fire crisis and utter chaos of the energy situation proves.
> 
> Would a Shorten government have been any better ? We will never know, but a government that has been in for 6 years has now run out of excuses to blame anyone else for the economy, our appalling education standards, our utter unpreparedness for natural disasters and our virtual total reliance on a few exports that we dig up out of the ground.



Would agree with the absence of excuse  now even if matters related to fire are state managed.maybe this has to change too if only to share resources based on different season patterns between states
Labour offer was abysmal at the last election, so we got the least worst..not enough .but we can not blame the electorate here.
We might need a new party to shock the system..or an economic shock will do it for us


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## moXJO (4 January 2020)

I see little direction from either government.
I should have added little political leadership. We seem to be having trouble getting out of the Carpark


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## satanoperca (4 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> *but a government that has been in for 6 years *has now run out of *excuses* to *blame anyone els*e for the economy, our appalling education standards, our utter unpreparedness for natural disasters and our virtual total reliance on a few exports that we dig up out of the ground.




Fully agree. Time the stood up for their own decisions and accepted responsibility.

They are crap economic managers, they have doubt the national gov debt in 6 years, they should accept that, but somehow they will blame Labor.

Sorry, I made a mistake, they have just followed the property market which doubles every 7 years


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## tinhat (4 January 2020)

BTW, I've never read an article by Laura Tingle in which she is so nakedly scathing of the commonwealth government and its lack of genuine policy as her piece in yesterday's AFR, "Bushfire crisis burns like Morrison's Katrina moment". She not only unloads on ScoMo but takes a good swipe at Josh Friesandburger too.


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## qldfrog (4 January 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...e/news-story/ed82d72f4aea8ff5ee11664626c3fa22


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## qldfrog (4 January 2020)

A nice summary: incompetence, and politisation  of anything even disaster by the bad loosers.Has Hillary sponsored a Labour FB group?


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## wayneL (20 February 2020)

Interesting


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## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> Interesting




Since the GFC, I have been wondering when there will be a currency consolidation, the debt is getting into silly season numbers.
So IMO, as in when a company has a stupid amount of shares on issue, they do a 1 for 10 or 1 for 100 or whatever, I think that will be done in some form with World currencies/debt, at some time in the future.
Maybe that is why Brexit happened, the U.S dragging China to the negotiating table and why Australia is reluctant to get into the money printing?
They might be lining up the ducks, to do a debt/currency consolidation?
When I get into a discussion on this subject, I always remember just after the GFC, the wife and I were standing around waiting in Phuket airport.
There was a bloke standing near me looking all agitated and we got talking, he was an accountant and he was worried sick about the GFC as it was really unfolding, i said don't worry about it money is only numbers on a spread sheet they will just add numbers, print money.
He looked at me in shock and said no way, they can't do that it wouldn't work, it will collapse our financial system the books wont balance so to speak, well to me it just seemed pretty logical for a tradie just add zero's.
Now it seems pretty obvious, either a crash, or just take the zero's off the spreadsheet.
Not that hard really, keeping confidence in the system, is the hard bit and crypto currencies are bringing on the consolidation IMO.
The reason being, Countries control their economies by regulating the money flow and value, they do it through the reserve banks and the major banks.
If another currency gets hold in the economy, it undermines the official currency and therefore undermines the Governments control of the economy.
So IMO there has to be a sorting out of the money printing mess and all Countries have to agree, or their economies will be undermined by privately owned crypto currency issuers and they wont want that to happen.
Just my thoughts and opinion.


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