# Trading with the DOM - how is it useful?



## tech/a (19 July 2012)

> But how can you spend years rubbishing it without having a friggin clue that it exists? I mean seriously? Are you so all knowing in this game that you are able to discount what EVERY trader of size uses to execute their trades without even knowing what it is, how it works and why real traders use it? I gotta say Tech I am really dumbfounded!! Your words were 5 years ago and this is a quotes,




Trading it or that depth has an influence?

On trading it----many attempt to few succeed.
Sure there are rooms of guys trading "Size" and very few make it.
Id say 90% of people here want to emulate these guys err --YOU--- with the lure of money beyond their dreams.
Few--very few ever attain it and more to the point KEEP IT.
Quants have trading algo's that use it (DOM) all the time.

5 yrs ago my comment was and still is related to DOM in stocks.
Ive not used a DOM screen when trading the FTSE/DAX and done Ok without it.

I and many like me dont want to sit looking at a screen head frying like its in a micro wave and taking 4 hrs to wind down after a session. *Not all of use want to (Have to) trade SIZE.*

There are 2 sides to the coin.
Not all of the few stay or become wealthy many many blow up---spectacularly.
Even you cant tell me that doesnt happen.

Are you so



> all knowing in this game




That you honestly believe that there are
no real traders other than scalpers trading DOM?


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

Heres a thread to discuss how the DOM is useful.

I'll kick it off by saying that this is the 'coalface', this is the auction market process displayed so it is easy to see all the bids and the offers.

This IS the market in real time.

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

Posted by tech/a


> Not all of use want to (Have to) trade SIZE.



Its got nothing to do with size or trade frequency. When you're against the wall you always take this stance. Like in your mind it makes everything you're being told rubbish because I trade a few more time a day than you!! 

*If you trade a fast market (all futs) and don't use a one click DOM as an order entry you're clueless to what your missing. Ticks lost here and there effect expectancy.*

Thats the starting point for futs and the DOM. Whether you want to use it for signals and scalping or not I don't give a toss. But for order entry nothing is as efficient....... by a looooonnnngggg shot.


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## Gringotts Bank (19 July 2012)

Tell us how you're doing it.

What % of money sits off screen?  Would that not constitute the_ real_ market also?


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Tell us how you're doing it.
> 
> What % of money sits off screen?  Would that not constitute the_ real_ market also?




I have no idea GB what you mean.


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## Gringotts Bank (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> I have no idea GB what you mean.




The thread went weird there for a minute while they melded.  Was a question to Canoz.


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## prawn_86 (19 July 2012)

Canoz and I have created this thread with a few posts from other threads in order to allow people to discuss the DOM in this thread and not get other threads and journals side-tracked.

Continue...


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> The thread went weird there for a minute while they melded.  Was a question to Canoz.





All the trades occur here, bids and offers are are pulled, and stacked ... and stacked and pulled. If i want to drive price down so i can fill my big order for an insto, i can put some fake offers in to show that there is size in the offer. This may scare (spoof) the players back down to a level where i have an iceberg sitting, absorbing all that selling so i can get filled at a lower price and make my clients happy...

Lots of this kind of stuff going on.

If there is size off the DOM, on the sidelines, they can either hit the bid and offer with market orders, or put limit order into the market that will show up on the DOM.

Is this what you meant?

CanOz


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Posted by tech/a
> 
> Its got nothing to do with size or trade frequency. When you're against the wall you always take this stance. Like in your mind it makes everything you're being told rubbish because I trade a few more time a day than you!!




Que?



> you are able to discount what *EVERY* trader of size




Your words??? thats what your infering.



> *If you trade a fast market (all futs) and don't use a one click DOM as an order entry you're clueless to what your missing. Ticks lost here and there effect expectancy.*




No Im aware of what Im missing. I asked how you guys did super quick entry and you replied.
Ive done ok without it and could do better I know that.



> Thats the starting point for futs and the DOM. Whether you want to use it for signals and scalping or not I don't give a toss. But for order entry nothing is as efficient....... by a looooonnnngggg shot.




Yeh got it. Maybe not a member of MENSA.
But Im well aware of how to turn a profit in this game.
Is it the best profit I could possibly get---Not by a long shot.
So I ask questions just like everyone else and expect flack.


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

Lets try and keep the thread productive, polite and informative, there are lots of ways to trade. Most professional traders are using this tool...obviously its not everyone.

CanOz


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## Joules MM1 (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> *If you trade a fast market (all futs) and don't use a one click DOM as an order entry you're clueless to what your missing. Ticks lost here and there effect expectancy.*
> 
> Thats the starting point for futs and the DOM. Whether you want to use it for signals and scalping or not I don't give a toss. But for order entry nothing is as efficient...




+1

there's no more concise point of entry or exit avail to any player (assuming the level is taken correctly)


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## Joules MM1 (19 July 2012)

there's a downside to the DOM......but it resides in the traders ability to understand the auction and how it's used against them......and even tho a best-view is avail, what is not avail is how to summarise the players who are not showing their hand......this is the distinct reason that even the best climbers get stuck on the ladder which has nothing to do with efficiency of thought or execution precision......


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

So in your guys view
Of every 100 traders who attempt to become good at this method of trading.

 # How many actually do?
 # How many stay profitable over say 5 yrs

 How many of those who make it. 

 # Cant hack it after say 12 mths
 # Blow up in say 12 months or less.

What I cant understand is that T/H once said he trades for mates down on luck and picks up a quick $50K
pretty quickly.

If Thats the case why on earth trade for someone else to get size?
100 or 1000 contracts---say?
Just go base jump!


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

tech/a said:


> So in your guys view
> Of every 100 traders who attempt to become good at this method of trading.




Trade what way? I'm saying the DOM is essential for good entry/exit no matter how you trade. You keep on saying scalping!! I only scalped for a few years when the market suited it. I doubt I will ever have to go back to such size and have a market that will enable that.



tech/a said:


> What I cant understand is that T/H once said he trades for mates down on luck and picks up a quick $50K
> pretty quickly.



As someone who reckons, in fact promotes themselves, as a good business man you're letting your ego get in the way of a good biz idea. 

I traded friends CFD accounts over a year when I stumbled across a *HUGE inefficiently* in the markets and got locked out of trading CFD providers as they would not let me trade under my name. I've been in biz long enough, not just trading, to know when you have a good thing push the hell out of it because it will not last. It didn't.

Got it?

Yet?


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## Gringotts Bank (19 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> All the trades occur here, bids and offers are are pulled, and stacked ... and stacked and pulled. If i want to drive price down so i can fill my big order for an insto, i can put some fake offers in to show that there is size in the offer. This may scare (spoof) the players back down to a level where i have an iceberg sitting, absorbing all that selling so i can get filled at a lower price and make my clients happy...
> 
> Lots of this kind of stuff going on.
> 
> ...




I want to see your method in action.  I'd like to see TH's method also.  Some video maybe?


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## boofis (19 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I want to see your method in action.  I'd like to see TH's method also.  Some video maybe?





Haha join the queue GB. Screen sharing on skype is the easiest way to accomplish this it seems.


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I want to see your method in action.  I'd like to see TH's method also.  Some video maybe?




I would be happy to share my screen with you GB. PM me and we can arrange a skype call. Boofis would be better, the ES has some greater bergs...

The Kospi has a few nice ones too but she's a little bracketed at the moment.

I can't upload video but you can Google it. Looks for Trading with the DOM, or icebergs on the DOM, scalping with the DOM...plenty of videos on YT.

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I want to see your method in action.  I'd like to see TH's method also.  Some video maybe?



Its like a merry-go-round. Except its not fun!!

I use the DOM to squeeze a few ticks out of each entry and exit, open a stop a few ticks if it needs some room, and *MAYBE *the odd scalp if there is nothing to trade on a larger timeframe. 

*SOMETIMES* I can see when the locals are being given the ar$e by insto bots on the DOM when they switch on a crude buy/sell program. Sometimes. That is it.

There is no method!!

I've done 8 trades this morning on the HSI. For an action packed market that would be no more setups taken than your average intraday punter.


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## Gringotts Bank (19 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> I would be happy to share my screen with you GB. PM me and we can arrange a skype call. Boofis would be better, the ES has some greater bergs...
> 
> The Kospi has a few nice ones too but she's a little bracketed at the moment.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the offer.  I'm actually at work now, so I'm whipping away from my chair all the time.  Will check youtube keywords, thanks.


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## Gringotts Bank (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Its like a merry-go-round. Except its not fun!!
> 
> I use the DOM to squeeze a few ticks out of each entry and exit, open a stop a few ticks if it needs some room, and *MAYBE *the odd scalp if there is nothing to trade on a larger timeframe.
> 
> ...




I bet you do have fun though.


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I bet you do have fun though.




Nah I'm mostly trade with this sensation lately.......




or this

:grenade:


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Trade what way? I'm saying the DOM is essential for good entry/exit no matter how you trade. You keep on saying scalping!! I only scalped for a few years when the market suited it. I doubt I will ever have to go back to such size and have a market that will enable that.




Man Ive missed something --- for the life of me I was under the impression this was all about grabbing a few ticks on HUGE size. So now its about using DOM for entry and exit and getting as much as you can from that entry and exit method.



> As someone who reckons, in fact promotes themselves, as a good business man you're letting your ego get in the way of a good biz idea.




Im not a clairvoiant knew nothing of the "Good Business Idea" until now.



> I traded friends CFD accounts over a year when I stumbled across a *HUGE inefficientcy* in the markets and got locked out of trading CFD providers as they would not let me trade under my name. I've been in biz long enough, not just trading, to know when you have a good thing push the hell out of it because it will not last. It didn't.
> 
> Got it?
> 
> Yet?




That wasnt mentioned at the time--first time Ive seen this explaination.
So yeh now I get it.


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

Actually Tech I've said it many times over the years. About what I was doing with CFD accounts.



And on the scalping if you look at all the current scalping threads I have been the biggest critic of why trade this way.


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Actually Tech I've said it many times over the years. About what I was doing with CFD accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> And on the scalping if you look at all the current scalping threads I have been the biggest critic of why trade this way.




Ok that cleared.


*QUESTION *those trading DOM as an entry and or exit.
It appears to me that this is *ALL* your using. Is that correct.
If not what else are you using to determine point of entry and or exit?


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

tech/a said:


> *QUESTION *those trading DOM as an entry and or exit.
> It appears to me that this is *ALL* your using. Is that correct.
> If not what else are you using to determine point of entry and or exit?




Nope. I try and figure out what type of market will unfold over the next 15 min out to the whole day (see this post for how) then use some basic chart patterns that I have observed (not TA stuff in books etc) in my market - HSI. THEN I use the DOM to gain the most favourable entry at points I have predetermined.  Same with exits. I will use the DOM to squeeze ticks out of each trade, on a hand full of contracts and 20 - 40 trades a day thats......... $$

Sometimes I will use the DOM to colour my bias again see my link.


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

> So in your guys view
> Of every 100 traders who attempt to become good at this method of trading.
> 
> # How many actually do?
> ...




Seems to have been glazed over particularly the stuff in BLUE.


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

tech/a said:


> Seems to have been glazed over particularly the stuff in BLUE.




What type of trading do you mean?


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nope. I try and figure out what type of market will unfold over the next 15 min out to the whole day (see this post for how) then use some basic chart patterns that I have observed (not TA stuff in books etc) in my market - HSI. THEN I use the DOM to gain the most favourable entry at points I have predetermined.  Same with exits. I will use the DOM to squeeze ticks out of each trade, on a hand full of contracts and 20 - 40 trades a day thats......... $$
> 
> Sometimes I will use the DOM to colour my bias again see my link.




Excellent Now I understand you completely



Trembling Hand said:


> What type of trading do you mean?




Scalping specifically.


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

tech/a said:


> Scalping specifically.




None outside of arb bots ran by hedgies etc.

I got good at it when the market was a very different beast to what it is now. And in any case that was passing success over a few years rather than constant adaptation to various markets.

I don't believe we will see one like that for........ maybe ever. 

Though the skills of scalping help in all trading.


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

TH, when you used IB and NT, did you get allot of white prints on the tape?


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## Timmy (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nope. I try and figure out what type of market will unfold over the next 15 min out to the whole day (see this post for how) then use some basic chart patterns that I have observed (not TA stuff in books etc) in my market - HSI. THEN I use the DOM to gain the most favourable entry at points I have predetermined.  Same with exits. I will use the DOM to squeeze ticks out of each trade, on a hand full of contracts and 20 - 40 trades a day thats......... $$
> 
> Sometimes I will use the DOM to colour my bias again see my link.




TH, this post, along with some of your others over the past few days (not the kid on the cheesegrater slide) have been printed, framed, and gone straight to the Pool Room.

Many thanks.


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## boofis (19 July 2012)

Timmy said:


> TH, this post, along with some of your others over the past few days (not the kid on the cheesegrater slide) have been printed, framed, and gone straight to the Pool Room.
> 
> Many thanks.




+1 good discussion guys, much appreciated.


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

Timmy said:


> TH, this post, along with some of your others over the past few days (not the kid on the cheesegrater slide) have been printed, framed, and gone straight to the Pool Room.
> 
> Many thanks.




Didnt I see a post somewhere about knowing what questions to ask----------------grasshopper.


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

Timmy said:


> TH, this post, along with some of your others over the past few days (not the kid on the cheesegrater slide) have been printed, framed, and gone straight to the Pool Room.
> 
> Many thanks.




Cool that will cost you a beer and payment must be made in 3 days or less.


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## Timmy (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Cool that will cost you a beer and payment must be made in 3 days or less.




C U by Saturday then.

(not next Tuesday  )


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

*Particularly this*



> But how can you spend years rubbishing it without having a friggin clue that it exists? I mean seriously? Are you so all knowing in this game that you are able to discount what EVERY trader of size uses to execute their trades without even knowing what it is, how it works and why real traders use it? I gotta say Tech I am really dumbfounded!! Your words were 5 years ago and this is a quotes,




*and some of this*




Trembling Hand said:


> Posted by tech/a
> 
> Its got nothing to do with size or trade frequency. When you're against the wall you always take this stance. Like in your mind it makes everything you're being told rubbish because I trade a few more time a day than you!!
> 
> ...




All this supposed Knocking ---which to a degree it was (There were ducks all lined up to get into this *"Scalping"* method which was the Ducks Guts!)

 came from this thread---my how the way you trade now differs from then. *So to would my responses!*
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12683


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> TH, when you used IB and NT, did you get allot of white prints on the tape?




A little off topic but still regarding the time and sales and the DOM...


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## Timmy (19 July 2012)




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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

Tech my point still stands. You have been knocking the DOM trading forever. Yet you have never done it nor know the benefits. Further I've been saying since about 2009 that I don't scalp 100s of trades a day. You just haven't wanted to hear it.

Not my fault if a ducks ears are full of water.....


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> TH, when you used IB and NT, did you get allot of white prints on the tape?




Whats a white print?


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Whats a white print?




These....

The problem is they don't actually show up on the DOM...

CanOz


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## tech/a (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Tech my point still stands. You have been knocking the DOM trading forever. Yet you have never done it nor know the benefits. Further I've been saying since about 2009 that I don't scalp 100s of trades a day. You just haven't wanted to hear it.
> 
> Not my fault if a ducks ears are full of water.....




*Yeh guess I have.

*DOM has been until a few posts ago seen by me as simply trading off it without anything else.
Attempting to fade volume blocks or trade to big blocks.
In itself I still see it as no more than punting. BUT you and others seem to do better than 50%

You disagree but as a stand alone method I dont rate it from what Iv seen.
BUT as an adjuct to trading and squeezing a few extra pips you and other exponents obviously have something.

How would you go just purely DOM?
I reckon thats what a lot here are trying to do! *DOM ONLY *

Hence my stance.

Perhaps I should read more of your posts to get up to speed or stay south in winter to keep up!


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

CanOz said:


> These....
> 
> The problem is they don't actually show up on the DOM...
> 
> CanOz




Contract roll over. Off market transfers by brokers if they are large numbers not showing up.


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

There are plenty that use the DOM only, search on youtube for "nobstrading" thats John Grady. He trades treasuries with only the TT DOM. 3 DOMs actually, one for each instrument. You can see how they do it.

CanOz


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## boofis (19 July 2012)

tech/a said:


> I reckon thats what a lot here are trying to do! *DOM ONLY *




I don't think there's *alot* of people anywhere trying to do much with the DOM. My 2c.


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## CanOz (19 July 2012)

boofis said:


> I don't think there's *alot* of people anywhere trying to do much with the DOM. My 2c.




I think that all successful intra-day futures traders are using the DOM. Intra-day Equity traders are also using a depth of market but its looks a bit different. 

All the squiggly lines and indicators are just being sold as HOPE.

I struggle to use the DOM on the DAX and the HSI, but a volume ladder help to see the action!!

CanOz


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## Trembling Hand (19 July 2012)

tech/a said:


> How would you go just purely DOM?
> I reckon thats what a lot here are trying to do! *DOM ONLY *




Like I have said very often recently no matter how you do scalp I have no idea why you would in this market. Huge intraday volatility makes it a dumb idea to scalp. The last three days on the HSI we have had over 1% intraday moves. DAX the same. Its like picking up  when there is $100 bills laying on the ground.

And no I wouldn't do just 100% DOM trading. Maybe if you were a spreader on bond yes but equities nope. You'll just enrich your broker...... at best.


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## prawn_86 (19 July 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Cool that will cost you a beer and payment must be made in 3 days or less.




Heaps of useful info in this thread. I'll throw a frothy in too


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## bidsandoffers (12 January 2013)

prawn_86 said:


> Heaps of useful info in this thread. I'll throw a frothy in too





Here's a video of using the dom to trade. The market is the Emini S& 500


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## CanOz (8 April 2013)

John Grady has now switched to Jigsaw!

He gives a pretty good explanation why the DOM is useful...



Jigsaw will be available for other platforms soon too apparently.

CanOz


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## tech/a (8 April 2013)

CanOz said:


> John Grady has now switched to Jigsaw!
> 
> He gives a pretty good explanation why the DOM is useful...
> 
> ...





*Now that I follow!*

If T/H and anyone else can read Course of trades without this
then they are damned geniuses.
I'm sure this would improve even the most experienced guys.
Their win rate would have to improve.

Thanks For Sharing CanOz

I can certainly appreciate the many posts T/H has put up with regard to 
Sim accounts.

http://www.jigsawtrading.com/try-buy/


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## CanOz (8 April 2013)

No worries Tech, thanks for posting the link, i completely forgot...

CanOz


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## DJG (8 April 2013)

I look forward to learning more from this thread. Hopefully we can keep the DOM traders v. non-DOM traders argument at a minor pace. As I'm sure many newbies such as myself will benefit from the education rather than arguments.

I'll have to start reading up on the basics


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## CanOz (8 April 2013)

DJG said:


> I look forward to learning more from this thread. Hopefully we can keep the DOM traders v. non-DOM traders argument at a minor pace. As I'm sure many newbies such as myself will benefit from the education rather than arguments.
> 
> I'll have to start reading up on the basics




Its like a religion Dan, just got to get them to see the light:engel:


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## dionysustoast (8 April 2013)

tech/a said:


> *Yeh guess I have.
> 
> *DOM has been until a few posts ago seen by me as simply trading off it without anything else.
> Attempting to fade volume blocks or trade to big blocks.
> ...




DOM only trading is possible.

There have been periods over the past month on the ES where that's been pretty much all you can do to make money. Volatility went so low that instruments like FESX and ES spent lots of time in tiny ranges. 

What do you do when that happens? You can of course sit on your hands. You could also wait to get to an extreme and tke a blind punt at it. You could also wait to get to an extreme and then look at how that extreme is being 'played'.

When you get into a range, that area becomes rife for scalping. It's a bit like a game of ping-pong. The market is being batted from one end to the other with anyone trading in the middle taking a coin flip and lots of them getting their asses handed to them.

As you get to the extreme, you are in an area where there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with large players screwing around with the market. It's not as if it's going to zoom off 30 ticks is it? So they nudge it outside the range to get the breakout players in and then drive it back to the opposite end. Of course at some point, it will move out of the range but then start another range 10 ticks up.

At those times, it's not much more than a game. 

So - not only is DOM only trading possible, I'd put it to you that there are times when it's the only game in town.

Or course, at other times, maybe a bit of news has hit and the market runs one way. Then (as bidsandoffers eloqeuntly put it to me recently) you just pick up your balls and go with it.

It's not as if you have to pick a technique and stick with it no matter what, is it?


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## dionysustoast (8 April 2013)

Trembling Hand said:


> Like I have said very often recently no matter how you do scalp I have no idea why you would in this market. Huge intraday volatility makes it a dumb idea to scalp. The last three days on the HSI we have had over 1% intraday moves. DAX the same. Its like picking up  when there is $100 bills laying on the ground.
> 
> And no I wouldn't do just 100% DOM trading. Maybe if you were a spreader on bond yes but equities nope. You'll just enrich your broker...... at best.




Indeedly.


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## CanOz (10 April 2013)

For the scalpers out there!

Scalpers Anon...


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## CanOz (12 April 2013)

*Scalping - Playing the Lean*

I found this article again by John Grady, very useful for those wanting to know what to look for in the depth of market...


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## CanOz (16 January 2014)

Here is a new webinar on trading without charts by the guys at Jigsaw...


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## RADO (16 January 2014)

Thanks for putting up the JigSaw webinar CanOz, this is my kind of stuff! along with John Grady's vids on YouTube.
I thought I'd put up this link http://www.9gtrading.com/ its an add-on DOM for Ninjatrader just like Jigsaw with heaps of different skins, I haven't used it so I can't comment on it. But there's also a forum on the website which might be useful to some people.


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## Newt (17 January 2014)

Question - do the Ninjatrader users trading futures use dynamic DOM or the basic (free) Static version?


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